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6 2013-03-23 00:01:04 <EvilPete> I had to laugh at the satoshidice ad on reddit/r/bitcoin
7 2013-03-23 00:02:21 <isaac1> That was pretty funny
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9 2013-03-23 00:02:43 <isaac1> I won the first 5 times I played lol
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13 2013-03-23 00:05:24 <midnightmagic> In a transaction decode from bitcoind, the "addresses" field references addresses in the plural. Is it possible for a single vout to have multiple addresses *without* special multi-party signatures? That is, is it even possible to manually construct a vout in a plain transaction where more than 1 address are the payee?
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16 2013-03-23 00:07:06 <midnightmagic> Or is it just "addresses" for those special transaction types like k-of-n ?
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23 2013-03-23 00:11:16 <helo> fun article that turns into a dirt piece at the end... http://www.wealthdaily.com/articles/eurozone-turning-to-bitcoins/4102
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26 2013-03-23 00:12:18 <sipa> midnightmagic: indeed
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28 2013-03-23 00:14:02 <midnightmagic> sipa: Thanks.
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37 2013-03-23 00:21:56 <sipa> gavinandresen: compiling your thread cleanup froze my system!
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39 2013-03-23 00:23:11 <gmaxwell> sipa: compiler OOMed you?
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43 2013-03-23 00:23:37 <sipa> gmaxwell: must be
44 2013-03-23 00:23:50 <sipa> 8 GiB of RAM here, though
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85 2013-03-23 00:53:37 <gavinandresen> sipa: froze your system? Shouldn't, I got rid of 400 lines of code....
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90 2013-03-23 00:56:11 <sipa> gavinandresen: it could use a reboot :)
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95 2013-03-23 00:58:58 <gavinandresen> sipa: the new code does use boost::bind() a fair bit, so it's possible it is tickling a compiler or boost version issue, but that seems unlikely.
96 2013-03-23 00:59:19 <sipa> gavinandresen: i doubt it was related to your code change :)
97 2013-03-23 01:00:03 Sealy has quit (Quit: Sealy)
98 2013-03-23 01:00:12 <gavinandresen> never know⦠boost::bind and all that template metaprogramming stuff scares the pants off me
99 2013-03-23 01:01:22 <gavinandresen> sipa: re: condition variable notify in a signal handler: I dunno, I'd doubt it. I can live with one poll.
100 2013-03-23 01:02:07 <sipa> yeah, me too- though i'd like to think about ways to avoid it
101 2013-03-23 01:04:13 <gavinandresen> sipa: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12952262/signal-handler-function-in-multithreaded-environment
102 2013-03-23 01:04:24 <gmaxwell> Mean block size in the last 200 blocks: 132719 bytes. Median 132663 bytes.
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104 2013-03-23 01:04:45 <gavinandresen> are transactions piling up?
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106 2013-03-23 01:04:55 <gmaxwell> No.
107 2013-03-23 01:05:05 <gavinandresen> cool
108 2013-03-23 01:05:18 i2pRelay has joined
109 2013-03-23 01:05:47 <gavinandresen> hypothesis: increased price == low-stakes gamblers playing SatoshiDice less
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111 2013-03-23 01:06:14 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: SD changed behavior to not send back the dust amounts apparently.
112 2013-03-23 01:06:33 <gavinandresen> oh, are they not sending back any response on losses?
113 2013-03-23 01:06:54 <gavinandresen> last I heard they were just increasing the amount they sent back....
114 2013-03-23 01:07:01 <gmaxwell> Dunno the details, that may be the case.
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147 2013-03-23 01:33:44 <MC-Droid> what happened to bitcoin.org?
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151 2013-03-23 01:36:32 <MC-Droid> god now its harder to just get bitcoininstall.exe
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172 2013-03-23 01:57:21 <Billdr> How has no one made a stand-alone client that put's it's wallet file in it's own directory?
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183 2013-03-23 02:09:35 <MiltonBerle> So not sure if this is the place to discuss this, but I am really interested in developing a site to serve rthe bitcoin community in some way. Not sure what it'd be, but I program in PHP/MySQL - anyone have any suggestions for a web based application/site that might be well received within the community?
184 2013-03-23 02:11:05 denisx has joined
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186 2013-03-23 02:13:43 <denisx> gavinandresen: can you give me the link to the rpc locking patches again pls
187 2013-03-23 02:14:14 <gavinandresen> denisx: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2357
188 2013-03-23 02:14:23 <denisx> thanks
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190 2013-03-23 02:16:28 <Ry4an> MiltonBerle: the message I hear a lot is "you best serve the bitcoin community by NOT trying to build a site that stores their wallets", so focus on just about any other type of bitcoin site. :)
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193 2013-03-23 02:17:46 <MiltonBerle> Ok, sounds like a plan.
194 2013-03-23 02:18:03 <MiltonBerle> What about one that wants to make them spend what is in their wallets.
195 2013-03-23 02:18:07 <MiltonBerle> =)
196 2013-03-23 02:18:17 <sipa> sounds good
197 2013-03-23 02:18:29 <MiltonBerle> All my ideas so far have sucked
198 2013-03-23 02:21:44 <MiltonBerle> What about a site that lets camgirls sell their pics and videos as well as live private skype shows for bitcoin. But goog luck explaining what bitcoin is to a camgirl.
199 2013-03-23 02:21:59 <MiltonBerle> Bonus, I get to see the girls videos for free.
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201 2013-03-23 02:22:00 <MiltonBerle> Haha
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203 2013-03-23 02:22:44 <sipa> I believe you may not be the first to think about that.
204 2013-03-23 02:23:00 <MiltonBerle> Yea I figures
205 2013-03-23 02:23:10 <MiltonBerle> Damn I am typoing a lot tonight
206 2013-03-23 02:23:41 <MiltonBerle> What about this thing where you can search for things and it shows you where they are on the net. I could call it google
207 2013-03-23 02:24:06 <MiltonBerle> Either way, in all seriousness I do wish I could think of something decent to develop
208 2013-03-23 02:24:27 <Billdr> there are a few dozen pr0n sites that accept bitcoin already
209 2013-03-23 02:24:36 <Billdr> I suppose the internet could always use more porn though.
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211 2013-03-23 02:25:01 <MiltonBerle> I know some camgirls that would use my site but who knows - the guys would have to want it.
212 2013-03-23 02:25:05 <Duly> watch a non techie struggle with using bitcoin and you should get many ideas
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214 2013-03-23 02:25:16 <Duly> on what to work on
215 2013-03-23 02:25:17 <sipa> MiltonBerle: starting to get off-topic here
216 2013-03-23 02:25:34 <MiltonBerle> True enough
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219 2013-03-23 02:26:53 <MiltonBerle> I think a game of some type would be cool but I know there are many out there already who use bitcoin.
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233 2013-03-23 02:37:30 <MC-Droid> anyone thought about how the fincen thing affects pools
234 2013-03-23 02:37:40 <MC-Droid> fincen: pools closed
235 2013-03-23 02:37:42 <MC-Droid> ?
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243 2013-03-23 02:43:34 <Graet> my pool is not based in usa, and only deals in btc, not fiat
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248 2013-03-23 02:46:26 <MC-Droid> pool ops have to cash in at some point
249 2013-03-23 02:46:33 <MC-Droid> to pay for servers
250 2013-03-23 02:47:24 <MC-Droid> and its been a few years since not being in the us has been a good defence from its jurisdiction
251 2013-03-23 02:47:35 <MC-Droid> with internet things
252 2013-03-23 02:48:54 <Graet> the pool is owned by a parent company and pays its bills to parent in btc
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257 2013-03-23 02:51:26 <MC-Droid> is that enough?
258 2013-03-23 02:51:39 <Graet> i think pools that pay direct tofiat will have more issues
259 2013-03-23 02:52:22 <Graet> fincen shouldnt affect my pool. it might affect some miners tho
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262 2013-03-23 02:53:38 <gavinandresen> MC-Droid: there are plenty of hosting companies that take Bitcoins as payment, no need to convert first.
263 2013-03-23 02:53:39 <MC-Droid> and of coursr most of those avalons just went to the land of the free
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265 2013-03-23 02:54:18 <gavinandresen> Are there any pools that pay miners in something other than bitcoin?
266 2013-03-23 02:54:28 <Graet> yes
267 2013-03-23 02:54:40 <Graet> emc pays dwolla
268 2013-03-23 02:55:08 <MC-Droid> what about the miner
269 2013-03-23 02:55:14 <MC-Droid> in the pool
270 2013-03-23 02:55:19 <MC-Droid> when they cash out
271 2013-03-23 02:55:24 <Graet> 50btc pays a lot of different ways
272 2013-03-23 02:55:44 <Graet> miners need to follow laws in thier jurisdiction
273 2013-03-23 02:55:59 <Graet> it might affect some miners tho << which is why i said that :)
274 2013-03-23 02:56:06 <gavinandresen> if they cash out at an exchange, then they probably have nothing to worry about, the exchange deals with all the regulations
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279 2013-03-23 02:59:01 <Graet> though with reent changes in au and us it is time to consult with lawers again, which i am in the process of arranging
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281 2013-03-23 03:00:22 <MC-Droid> i get a feeling the actual technical specifics of bitcoin will be argued in court sooner or later
282 2013-03-23 03:00:34 <MC-Droid> that will probably be painful to watch
283 2013-03-23 03:01:13 <Graet> yes
284 2013-03-23 03:01:20 <Graet> in several countries
285 2013-03-23 03:02:12 <MC-Droid> i wonder if bitcoins spirit will be intact by the end of this
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287 2013-03-23 03:03:25 <MC-Droid> if courts rule no, the only way to deal with it will be direct technical countermeasures and an acceptance that bitcoin will be smaller than hoped
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289 2013-03-23 03:04:04 <MC-Droid> but if the measures are good enough, still fairly easy to use
290 2013-03-23 03:04:59 <MC-Droid> and im not even sure any us programmer would feel safe making such adaptions
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294 2013-03-23 03:06:04 <BlueMatt> hmm...seems like a clever (and patient) attacker can pretty easily get a node running with -debug to assert(0)
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297 2013-03-23 03:08:39 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: how?
298 2013-03-23 03:08:42 <jgarzik> MC-Droid: Seems like pool op should pay for things with bitcoin
299 2013-03-23 03:08:51 <BlueMatt> well, node also has to be mining
300 2013-03-23 03:08:55 <zeiris> Can they do it on a large enough scale to grab >50% and double spend? :D
301 2013-03-23 03:09:14 <BlueMatt> assert("mempool transaction missing input" == 0); should be triggerable if you send someone a unconfirmable tx which the node then spends
302 2013-03-23 03:09:47 <Graet> i do where possible
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304 2013-03-23 03:10:05 <Graet> or i try to sell them to people that will use them to buy stuff :D
305 2013-03-23 03:10:38 <gmaxwell> zeiris: that isn't how bitcoin works.
306 2013-03-23 03:10:44 <BlueMatt> (the only case where a tx ignores the fCheckInputs is ReacceptWalletTransactions which adds supporting txn...but those supporting txn dont have to be confirmable, they can be orphans
307 2013-03-23 03:10:44 <zeiris> :(
308 2013-03-23 03:10:56 <skkgrd> can anyone point me to a good technical paper on Ripple?
309 2013-03-23 03:11:23 <gmaxwell> skkgrd: if you're talking about ripple.com, no such thing exists yet as far as I know.
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311 2013-03-23 03:11:56 <BlueMatt> essentially impossible, but its possible that is assumed otherwhere and could be triggered in some weird cases
312 2013-03-23 03:11:59 <denisx> sipa: you also tried the shutdown patch from gavin?
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320 2013-03-23 03:18:27 <MC-Droid> maybe we do need physical cash bitcoins somehow
321 2013-03-23 03:18:46 <MC-Droid> like, a way to make your own easily
322 2013-03-23 03:18:59 <MC-Droid> are those security stickers up to the task
323 2013-03-23 03:19:57 <MC-Droid> one way of getting distributed anon off chain txn
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329 2013-03-23 03:22:37 <lianj> MC-Droid: those would only be bitcoin backed thingys then, no real bitcoin
330 2013-03-23 03:22:41 <denisx> MC-Droid: https://www.casascius.com
331 2013-03-23 03:23:03 <MC-Droid> not backed
332 2013-03-23 03:23:33 <MC-Droid> private key under a security stickers and public key for verification
333 2013-03-23 03:23:57 <MC-Droid> print em yourself from billstock to ensure security
334 2013-03-23 03:24:17 <lianj> casascius are nice, but if you introduce people to bitcoin by showing them one of these it often raises more doubts. at least happened to me
335 2013-03-23 03:24:50 <MC-Droid> break em down and print up smaller denominations occasionally when you come across now silly.large denominations in circulation
336 2013-03-23 03:24:53 <MC-Droid> could work?
337 2013-03-23 03:25:06 <lianj> MC-Droid: still, its just bitcoin backed then. if you do a tx (give the coin to another person) its not a btc transaction
338 2013-03-23 03:25:31 <lianj> its nice though, but not to be confused with bitcoin
339 2013-03-23 03:26:16 Boydy has joined
340 2013-03-23 03:26:24 <MC-Droid> well its a private key which is as close to "a bitcoin" as you can get anyway
341 2013-03-23 03:26:24 <lianj> its a token coin backed by bitcoin
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343 2013-03-23 03:26:54 <MC-Droid> no wwy to ensure it wont be swept after you recieve one though
344 2013-03-23 03:27:03 <MC-Droid> apart from sweeping it yourself
345 2013-03-23 03:27:17 <lianj> MC-Droid: see what denisx linked
346 2013-03-23 03:27:36 <MC-Droid> i know about cascius but he is just one man
347 2013-03-23 03:29:07 <MC-Droid> i wonder if theres a way to order a LOT of blank bills and stickers and throw them from the rooftops
348 2013-03-23 03:29:19 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
349 2013-03-23 03:29:30 <MC-Droid> distribute a program thst makes filling them and breaking them down easy
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356 2013-03-23 03:36:27 <MC-Droid> perhaps a promo project for the foundation
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361 2013-03-23 03:37:22 <MC-Droid> free blank bitcheques and security stickers
362 2013-03-23 03:37:50 <MC-Droid> i dont know how much those stickers cost or how well they can keep a key private
363 2013-03-23 03:37:53 i2pRelay has joined
364 2013-03-23 03:38:05 <MC-Droid> i bet youd have to foil back it too
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372 2013-03-23 03:48:16 <epylar> you can never trust that a private key embedded in a physical object corresponds to an account with money in it
373 2013-03-23 03:48:37 sebuba has joined
374 2013-03-23 03:48:44 <epylar> even if you can look at the key somehow, the money could be removed at any time, and if you can look at the key without breaking the object, it's even more likely someone else has looked at it and can spend any money in the account
375 2013-03-23 03:49:49 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
376 2013-03-23 03:49:53 <epylar> the only way to be sure is if you created the object and the key pair, and the object is completely tamper proof
377 2013-03-23 03:50:04 <epylar> and at that point it's just a cold wallet
378 2013-03-23 03:50:06 Boydy has joined
379 2013-03-23 03:50:48 <MC-Droid> FUCK
380 2013-03-23 03:50:52 <MC-Droid> so obvious
381 2013-03-23 03:50:55 amincd has joined
382 2013-03-23 03:50:58 <amincd> What would be the downside of making the block generation time of bitcoin faster when the hard fork is done? More splits?
383 2013-03-23 03:51:37 rebroad has joined
384 2013-03-23 03:52:01 <_g> amincd: there would be more splits, the faster the block generatin was.. you wold also screw up the reward structure
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386 2013-03-23 03:53:05 <amincd> _g the reward structure could be adjusted so that the same number of bitcoins are generated every year, and in total. As for splits, what is the down-side to them? They give the previous block generator an advantage, right? Since they will have a headstart against any one who gets the split
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394 2013-03-23 03:55:27 <_g> amincd: i guess wasted work.. that advantage is negligible though since it is random who gets it
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397 2013-03-23 03:56:45 <amincd> _g wasted work has a cost I suppose: less of the network hash-rate is dedicated to the largest chain, which makes a 51% attack easier
398 2013-03-23 03:56:55 <amincd> but it would be negligible I think
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402 2013-03-23 03:57:17 <amincd> _g any idea what the current network propagation time is, and how it changes with increases in network activity?
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417 2013-03-23 04:15:02 <lianj> is there some stupid block that pays out for each share or something?
418 2013-03-23 04:15:09 <veox> amincd: Also, handling splits does not have a linear complexity.
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420 2013-03-23 04:16:16 <veox> If a split block gets split, their expansion diminishes proportionally, so the first-level split always wins.
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424 2013-03-23 04:17:55 <veox> (Just a thought, peeked in before going to sleep.)
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434 2013-03-23 04:31:08 <amincd> veox or any one else: can you expand on the relationship between network size and split-handling? Any ideas on what could be expected with much higher tps rates?
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471 2013-03-23 05:02:00 <digitalmagus> How can I query my live block-chain *directly* to extract the various data available? I don't want to go through a third party.
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477 2013-03-23 05:10:10 <gmaxwell> digitalmagus: open up the console. type help
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481 2013-03-23 05:14:29 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: If I have working code, is it premature to request a BIP number for a UDP protocol?
482 2013-03-23 05:14:52 SwedFTP_ has left ()
483 2013-03-23 05:15:33 <rs0> is this something you've been working on in isolation?
484 2013-03-23 05:16:06 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I'd suggest posting about it first, I don't mind allocating a number, but it might be useful to know what it will become first.
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511 2013-03-23 05:47:34 <digitalmagus> Are you being sarcastic, or if not, which console are you referring to? --->"<gmaxwell> digitalmagus: open up the console. type help"
512 2013-03-23 05:47:54 <gmaxwell> digitalmagus: the console in bitcoin-qt
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515 2013-03-23 05:59:21 <digitalmagus> ah ok, thanks.
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577 2013-03-23 07:36:15 <Ant0> morning
578 2013-03-23 07:36:41 <TradeFortress_> morning
579 2013-03-23 07:39:49 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: done
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584 2013-03-23 07:46:56 <digitalmagus> does anybody know what charting software blockchain.info uses? Example here: http://blockchain.info/charts/market-cap
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588 2013-03-23 07:52:10 <TradeFortress_> digitalmagus, highcharts
589 2013-03-23 07:52:14 <TradeFortress_> inspect element
590 2013-03-23 07:52:25 <ligar> someone jackin with mtgox
591 2013-03-23 07:52:27 <digitalmagus> TradeFortress... thanks!
592 2013-03-23 07:52:40 <pete79> it's high charts is library just released new version, commercial
593 2013-03-23 07:52:46 <digitalmagus> mtgox is getting so many Santoshi dice transactions
594 2013-03-23 07:52:55 <pete79> stupid autocorrect
595 2013-03-23 07:53:31 <digitalmagus> pete79: do you know if a developer license is needed ($590) or just single website license ($90) to do somehting like : http://blockchain.info/charts
596 2013-03-23 07:54:52 <TradeFortress_> single site if single site
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607 2013-03-23 08:20:16 <warren> It doesn't appear that The Guardian's 5 minute video about bitcoin is very flattering. these people they are interviewing aren't doing a very good job.
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631 2013-03-23 09:16:35 pierre` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
632 2013-03-23 09:16:44 GMP has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
633 2013-03-23 09:17:06 pierre` has joined
634 2013-03-23 09:17:51 Orbixx has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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636 2013-03-23 09:17:59 Orbixx has joined
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640 2013-03-23 09:18:42 grapevine has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
641 2013-03-23 09:18:43 rikur has joined
642 2013-03-23 09:19:36 grapevine has joined
643 2013-03-23 09:19:49 grapevine is now known as Guest50714
644 2013-03-23 09:20:45 clr_ has joined
645 2013-03-23 09:22:21 geb has quit (Excess Flood)
646 2013-03-23 09:22:46 ThomasV has joined
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648 2013-03-23 09:23:33 geb has joined
649 2013-03-23 09:23:33 geb has quit (Excess Flood)
650 2013-03-23 09:24:12 geb has joined
651 2013-03-23 09:24:29 space_cadet has joined
652 2013-03-23 09:25:19 valparaiso_afk is now known as valparaiso
653 2013-03-23 09:27:58 wrabbit has joined
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655 2013-03-23 09:28:53 joehoyle has joined
656 2013-03-23 09:28:57 kapiteined has joined
657 2013-03-23 09:29:05 Muis__ is now known as Muis
658 2013-03-23 09:30:24 dkog has joined
659 2013-03-23 09:30:52 lodse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
660 2013-03-23 09:33:18 joehoyle has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
661 2013-03-23 09:42:15 lodse has joined
662 2013-03-23 09:45:09 clr_ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
663 2013-03-23 09:46:34 ogoffart has joined
664 2013-03-23 09:48:45 Ant0 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
665 2013-03-23 09:49:03 Ant0 has joined
666 2013-03-23 09:50:08 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
667 2013-03-23 09:51:19 Casimir1904 has joined
668 2013-03-23 09:52:49 `Nothing4You has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
669 2013-03-23 09:55:57 Hasimir has joined
670 2013-03-23 09:56:30 space_cadet has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
671 2013-03-23 09:57:31 <sivu> why does this transaction fails in getFromAddress in bitcoinj http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/tx/a9c26b08cb3af241401ede6ca43216757d254be217db9e91a5cc14af4e2c08e5
672 2013-03-23 09:57:45 oldbushie has joined
673 2013-03-23 09:59:09 <wumpus> does anyone know of a tool to query/watch the current balance a list of public keys, if possible without using third party services such as blockexplorer?
674 2013-03-23 09:59:25 oldbushie has left ()
675 2013-03-23 10:07:05 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
676 2013-03-23 10:08:17 grau has joined
677 2013-03-23 10:08:55 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
678 2013-03-23 10:14:33 grau has joined
679 2013-03-23 10:14:49 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
680 2013-03-23 10:15:50 cads has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
681 2013-03-23 10:16:21 dparrish has joined
682 2013-03-23 10:16:34 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
683 2013-03-23 10:16:50 Lolcust has quit (Quit: Nap time)
684 2013-03-23 10:19:26 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
685 2013-03-23 10:20:14 molecular has joined
686 2013-03-23 10:21:13 veox has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
687 2013-03-23 10:21:16 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
688 2013-03-23 10:22:40 BTCOxygen has joined
689 2013-03-23 10:24:29 CaptainBlaze has joined
690 2013-03-23 10:26:16 B0g4r7 has joined
691 2013-03-23 10:27:24 jtimon has joined
692 2013-03-23 10:29:35 joehoyle has joined
693 2013-03-23 10:32:30 saulimus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
694 2013-03-23 10:32:46 saulimus has joined
695 2013-03-23 10:32:59 pobri19 has joined
696 2013-03-23 10:33:06 <pobri19> so what exactly makes bitcoin take so long to confirm?
697 2013-03-23 10:33:15 hngfdrjhtrjh has joined
698 2013-03-23 10:33:19 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion
699 2013-03-23 10:33:20 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion
700 2013-03-23 10:33:22 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion
701 2013-03-23 10:33:28 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
702 2013-03-23 10:33:29 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
703 2013-03-23 10:33:30 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
704 2013-03-23 10:33:31 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
705 2013-03-23 10:33:31 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
706 2013-03-23 10:33:31 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
707 2013-03-23 10:33:31 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
708 2013-03-23 10:33:34 <pobri19> lol
709 2013-03-23 10:33:40 Lolcust has joined
710 2013-03-23 10:33:57 <warren> Wow, now that you mentioned it several times it seems more legit.
711 2013-03-23 10:34:02 <TradeFortress> scam in case you're wondering
712 2013-03-23 10:35:14 <_W_> I must say, I was really pondering that TradeFortress :p
713 2013-03-23 10:35:15 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
714 2013-03-23 10:35:15 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
715 2013-03-23 10:35:15 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
716 2013-03-23 10:35:15 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
717 2013-03-23 10:35:16 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
718 2013-03-23 10:35:16 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
719 2013-03-23 10:35:16 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
720 2013-03-23 10:35:16 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
721 2013-03-23 10:35:17 <hngfdrjhtrjh> v
722 2013-03-23 10:35:17 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
723 2013-03-23 10:35:18 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
724 2013-03-23 10:35:18 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
725 2013-03-23 10:35:19 <hngfdrjhtrjh> v
726 2013-03-23 10:35:19 <hngfdrjhtrjh> v
727 2013-03-23 10:35:24 <pobri19> manual spam ftw
728 2013-03-23 10:35:26 <TradeFortress> LOL
729 2013-03-23 10:35:28 <_W_> heh he even manually pastes it
730 2013-03-23 10:35:28 <pobri19> ctrl+v
731 2013-03-23 10:35:28 <TradeFortress> "v"
732 2013-03-23 10:35:29 <pjorrit_> if only you could ban a message ;p
733 2013-03-23 10:35:40 <_W_> pjorrit_: you can't? Get better client
734 2013-03-23 10:35:57 <pjorrit_> you can? how do you do it?
735 2013-03-23 10:36:09 <TradeFortress> /ignore
736 2013-03-23 10:36:19 <Leviathanzz> worst spam attempt ever
737 2013-03-23 10:36:35 <pjorrit_> no i'm actually thinking of banning not a hostmask but a message
738 2013-03-23 10:36:40 <warren> I think his CTRL button broke.
739 2013-03-23 10:36:46 <_W_> pjorrit_: scripting
740 2013-03-23 10:37:07 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
741 2013-03-23 10:37:07 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
742 2013-03-23 10:37:08 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
743 2013-03-23 10:37:08 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
744 2013-03-23 10:37:09 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
745 2013-03-23 10:37:09 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
746 2013-03-23 10:37:09 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
747 2013-03-23 10:37:10 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
748 2013-03-23 10:37:10 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
749 2013-03-23 10:37:11 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
750 2013-03-23 10:37:11 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
751 2013-03-23 10:37:12 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
752 2013-03-23 10:37:12 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
753 2013-03-23 10:37:12 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
754 2013-03-23 10:37:13 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
755 2013-03-23 10:37:13 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
756 2013-03-23 10:37:22 duckybsd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
757 2013-03-23 10:37:24 <pobri19> jgarzik,
758 2013-03-23 10:37:27 <pobri19> OneFixt,
759 2013-03-23 10:37:30 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
760 2013-03-23 10:37:31 <hngfdrjhtrjh> http://redd.it/1aupln lowest rate as free bitcoin 50btconly$1199
761 2013-03-23 10:37:58 <pjorrit_> so uh yea.. why arent more the in here @?
762 2013-03-23 10:38:00 Lolcust has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
763 2013-03-23 10:40:54 CaptainBlaze has quit (Quit: CaptainBlaze)
764 2013-03-23 10:42:07 pegu has joined
765 2013-03-23 10:42:22 kadoban has joined
766 2013-03-23 10:42:26 <Diablo-D3> OneFixt, jgarzik: do something
767 2013-03-23 10:42:50 GMP has joined
768 2013-03-23 10:45:17 JDuke128 has joined
769 2013-03-23 10:46:25 lodse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
770 2013-03-23 10:53:41 one_zero has quit ()
771 2013-03-23 10:56:15 Varan has joined
772 2013-03-23 10:57:49 <Varan> I'm wondering how to implement the Bitcoin script engine in Coq in order to verify properties. What kind of properties do you think would be useful to verify?
773 2013-03-23 10:58:22 ralphtheninja has joined
774 2013-03-23 10:59:11 vrith has left ()
775 2013-03-23 10:59:16 <Varan> No loop and linearity of the scripts and limited resource consumption (CPU and memory) is what I am thinking about.
776 2013-03-23 10:59:25 <Varan> Any other suggestions
777 2013-03-23 10:59:38 <Varan> Some security properties are hard to define...
778 2013-03-23 11:00:43 saulimus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
779 2013-03-23 11:00:49 Lolcust has joined
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792 2013-03-23 11:11:01 whiterabbit is now known as wrabbit
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797 2013-03-23 11:14:36 Neskia is now known as Nesetalis
798 2013-03-23 11:15:45 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
799 2013-03-23 11:16:15 i2pRelay has joined
800 2013-03-23 11:16:59 licnep has joined
801 2013-03-23 11:17:21 fdsgdsghre has joined
802 2013-03-23 11:17:46 <fdsgdsghre> http://redd.it/1auqhn buy 50btc free 2 b itcoin just usd1199
803 2013-03-23 11:17:46 <fdsgdsghre> http://redd.it/1auqhn buy 50btc free 2 b itcoin just usd1199
804 2013-03-23 11:17:47 <fdsgdsghre> http://redd.it/1auqhn buy 50btc free 2 b itcoin just usd1199
805 2013-03-23 11:17:47 <fdsgdsghre> http://redd.it/1auqhn buy 50btc free 2 b itcoin just usd1199
806 2013-03-23 11:17:47 <fdsgdsghre> http://redd.it/1auqhn buy 50btc free 2 b itcoin just usd1199
807 2013-03-23 11:17:48 <fdsgdsghre> http://redd.it/1auqhn buy 50btc free 2 b itcoin just usd1199
808 2013-03-23 11:17:48 <fdsgdsghre> http://redd.it/1auqhn buy 50btc free 2 b itcoin just usd1199
809 2013-03-23 11:17:48 <fdsgdsghre> http://redd.it/1auqhn buy 50btc free 2 b itcoin just usd1199
810 2013-03-23 11:17:48 <fdsgdsghre> http://redd.it/1auqhn buy 50btc free 2 b itcoin just usd1199
811 2013-03-23 11:17:49 <fdsgdsghre> http://redd.it/1auqhn buy 50btc free 2 b itcoin just usd1199
812 2013-03-23 11:17:49 <fdsgdsghre> http://redd.it/1auqhn buy 50btc free 2 b itcoin just usd1199
813 2013-03-23 11:17:49 <fdsgdsghre> http://redd.it/1auqhn buy 50btc free 2 b itcoin just usd1199
814 2013-03-23 11:17:50 <fdsgdsghre> http://redd.it/1auqhn buy 50btc free 2 b itcoin just usd1199
815 2013-03-23 11:17:50 <fdsgdsghre> http://redd.it/1auqhn buy 50btc free 2 b itcoin just usd1199
816 2013-03-23 11:18:02 <fdsgdsghre> http://redd.it/1auqhn buy 50btc free 2 b itcoin just usd1199
817 2013-03-23 11:18:02 <fdsgdsghre> http://redd.it/1auqhn buy 50btc free 2 b itcoin just usd1199
818 2013-03-23 11:18:03 <fdsgdsghre> http://redd.it/1auqhn buy 50btc free 2 b itcoin just usd1199
819 2013-03-23 11:18:03 <fdsgdsghre> http://redd.it/1auqhn buy 50btc free 2 b itcoin just usd1199
820 2013-03-23 11:18:04 <fdsgdsghre> http://redd.it/1auqhn buy 50btc free 2 b itcoin just usd1199
821 2013-03-23 11:19:44 fdsbheshre has joined
822 2013-03-23 11:19:54 duckybsd has joined
823 2013-03-23 11:20:48 <Scrat> why ban the userid
824 2013-03-23 11:21:58 <fdsbheshre> http://redd.it/1auqu2 buy50bitcoin free2 bitcoin just$1199
825 2013-03-23 11:21:58 <fdsbheshre> http://redd.it/1auqu2 buy50bitcoin free2 bitcoin just$1199
826 2013-03-23 11:22:00 <fdsbheshre> http://redd.it/1auqu2 buy50bitcoin free2 bitcoin just$1199
827 2013-03-23 11:22:09 hrofat has joined
828 2013-03-23 11:22:12 <fdsbheshre> http://redd.it/1auqu2 buy50bitcoin free2 bitcoin just$1199
829 2013-03-23 11:22:12 <fdsbheshre> http://redd.it/1auqu2 buy50bitcoin free2 bitcoin just$1199
830 2013-03-23 11:22:13 <fdsbheshre> http://redd.it/1auqu2 buy50bitcoin free2 bitcoin just$1199
831 2013-03-23 11:22:28 <fdsbheshre> http://redd.it/1auqu2 buy50bitcoin free2 bitcoin just$1199
832 2013-03-23 11:22:38 <fdsbheshre> http://redd.it/1auqu2 buy50bitcoin free2 bitcoin just$1199
833 2013-03-23 11:23:19 tvisdog has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
834 2013-03-23 11:23:46 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
835 2013-03-23 11:23:58 rbecker has quit (Quit: You care. You're there for me. You love me so much, and I never want to let it go. You are the one truly amazing person. MDR 3/6/11 <3)
836 2013-03-23 11:24:15 i2pRelay has joined
837 2013-03-23 11:25:31 RBecker has joined
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839 2013-03-23 11:25:42 <fdsbheshre> http://redd.it/1auqu2 buy50bitcoin free2 bitcoin just$1199
840 2013-03-23 11:25:42 <fdsbheshre> http://redd.it/1auqu2 buy50bitcoin free2 bitcoin just$1199
841 2013-03-23 11:25:43 <fdsbheshre> http://redd.it/1auqu2 buy50bitcoin free2 bitcoin just$1199
842 2013-03-23 11:25:44 <fdsbheshre> http://redd.it/1auqu2 buy50bitcoin free2 bitcoin just$1199
843 2013-03-23 11:25:45 <fdsbheshre> http://redd.it/1auqu2 buy50bitcoin free2 bitcoin just$1199
844 2013-03-23 11:25:46 <fdsbheshre> http://redd.it/1auqu2 buy50bitcoin free2 bitcoin just$1199
845 2013-03-23 11:25:47 <fdsbheshre> http://redd.it/1auqu2 buy50bitcoin free2 bitcoin just$1199
846 2013-03-23 11:25:48 <fdsbheshre> http://redd.it/1auqu2 buy50bitcoin free2 bitcoin just$1199
847 2013-03-23 11:26:13 RBecker has joined
848 2013-03-23 11:26:27 Lolcust has joined
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850 2013-03-23 11:27:07 hrofat has left ()
851 2013-03-23 11:27:35 epscy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
852 2013-03-23 11:27:53 Saberu has joined
853 2013-03-23 11:29:28 kalleboo is now known as kalleboo|away
854 2013-03-23 11:30:34 Varan has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
855 2013-03-23 11:31:00 epscy has joined
856 2013-03-23 11:31:30 bakingbread has joined
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858 2013-03-23 11:32:17 <fdsbheshre> âââ50 Bitcoin + Free extra 2 Bitcoin=1199.99 (www.bitswing.com) [delivery in 5 minutes]no phone call for verify,no personal information need 2 Bitcoin=$109.99 5 Bitcoin=$209.99 20 Bitcoin=$599.99 www.bitswing.com 30 Bitcoin + Free extra 0.5 Bitcoin=$859.99 40 Bitcoin + Free extra 1 Bitcoin=$1099.99 http://www.bitswing.com http://www.bitswing.com
859 2013-03-23 11:32:24 i2pRelay has joined
860 2013-03-23 11:34:25 space_cadet has joined
861 2013-03-23 11:35:52 gfdshresh has joined
862 2013-03-23 11:35:56 <gfdshresh> http://redd.it/1aur5y buy50bitcoin will free 2bitcoin price only$1199
863 2013-03-23 11:35:57 <gfdshresh> http://redd.it/1aur5y buy50bitcoin will free 2bitcoin price only$1199
864 2013-03-23 11:35:57 <gfdshresh> http://redd.it/1aur5y buy50bitcoin will free 2bitcoin price only$1199
865 2013-03-23 11:35:58 <gfdshresh> http://redd.it/1aur5y buy50bitcoin will free 2bitcoin price only$1199
866 2013-03-23 11:35:59 <gfdshresh> http://redd.it/1aur5y buy50bitcoin will free 2bitcoin price only$1199
867 2013-03-23 11:36:00 <gfdshresh> http://redd.it/1aur5y buy50bitcoin will free 2bitcoin price only$1199
868 2013-03-23 11:36:00 <gfdshresh> http://redd.it/1aur5y buy50bitcoin will free 2bitcoin price only$1199
869 2013-03-23 11:36:01 <gfdshresh> http://redd.it/1aur5y buy50bitcoin will free 2bitcoin price only$1199
870 2013-03-23 11:36:01 <gfdshresh> http://redd.it/1aur5y buy50bitcoin will free 2bitcoin price only$1199
871 2013-03-23 11:36:15 pyrobisqit has joined
872 2013-03-23 11:36:38 <Scrat> >_>
873 2013-03-23 11:36:39 damientrog has joined
874 2013-03-23 11:36:48 <saulimus> argh
875 2013-03-23 11:36:50 kalleboo is now known as away!~kalleboo@i121-118-222-71.s11.a046.ap.plala.or.jp|kalleboo
876 2013-03-23 11:39:49 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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883 2013-03-23 11:52:50 kalleboo is now known as kalleboo|away
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905 2013-03-23 12:11:19 <rebroad_> I'd like to make a patch to bitcoind so that it can accept blocks from some nodes and trust that the block has already been validated, thereby not needing to use up CPU to do the validation again. What would be the best way to do this? Would it be safe to allow an entry in bitcoin.conf to trust 127.0.0.1 for example?
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910 2013-03-23 12:13:18 <gfdshresh> âââ50 Bitcoin + Free extra 2 Bitcoin=1199.99 (www.bitswing.com) [delivery in 5 minutes]no phone call for verify,no personal information need 2 Bitcoin=$109.99 5 Bitcoin=$209.99 20 Bitcoin=$599.99 www.bitswing.com 30 Bitcoin + Free extra 0.5 Bitcoin=$859.99 40 Bitcoin + Free extra 1 Bitcoin=$1099.99 http://www.bitswing.com http://www.bitswing.com
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985 2013-03-23 13:21:29 <bwen> is it possible with bitcoind to list all transaction of a bitcoin address without creating a wallet/accoun ?
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987 2013-03-23 13:22:17 <bwen> I see the function listreceivedbyaddress on the wiki, but no address parameter...
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995 2013-03-23 13:33:09 <Matthew-B> Hey guys.
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998 2013-03-23 13:38:55 <jouke> bwen: no.
999 2013-03-23 13:39:21 <jouke> The client only keeps track of transactions to address that are in the wallet.
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1006 2013-03-23 13:44:35 <Matthew-B> Hey guys, I was just wondering would any of you be able to help me with the receiving and giving of bitcoins using something like blockchain api or bitcoind?
1007 2013-03-23 13:45:56 <Scrat> Matthew-B: don't ask to ask, just tell us what the problem is
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1014 2013-03-23 13:51:47 <bwen> jouke: I dont see the problem. Every client has the whole blockchain.. Why couldnt I just see the transactions of 1 address... hell blockchain.info lets you...
1015 2013-03-23 13:52:57 <bwen> Maththew-B: sure I can help...https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_Calls_list rtfm... thats what I'm doing :p
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1017 2013-03-23 13:54:25 <bwen> Matthew-B ^
1018 2013-03-23 13:55:28 <i2pRelay> <anon3030@i2p> hi
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1026 2013-03-23 14:02:22 <jouke> bwen: do you need performance? Because there are programs that can get what you want out of the blockchain-files.
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1030 2013-03-23 14:05:12 <bwen> jouke: here is what I ideally wanted to do. Show bitcoin address where to see the bitcoins on my website to my customers. They say from which address they are sending it to my address. that way I can track which customers really paid and how much. And that way I wouldnt have to have a full wallet with privatekeys hooked to the tubes
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1032 2013-03-23 14:06:13 <bwen> I read the https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Accounts_explained and the "Typical Uses"
1033 2013-03-23 14:06:30 <bwen> i'm just concerned about being hacked and having my wallet suddendly emptied
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1047 2013-03-23 14:14:54 <Varan> I'm wondering how to implement the Bitcoin script engine in Coq in order to verify properties. What kind of properties do you think would be useful to verify?
1048 2013-03-23 14:15:04 <Varan> No loop and linearity of the scripts and limited resource consumption (CPU and memory) is what I am thinking about.
1049 2013-03-23 14:15:18 damientrog has quit (Quit: damientrog)
1050 2013-03-23 14:15:18 <Varan> Any other suggestions?
1051 2013-03-23 14:15:34 PRab has joined
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1053 2013-03-23 14:17:29 <bbrox> Hi any one mines on Linux?
1054 2013-03-23 14:17:50 <bbrox> I wonder which Catalyst ist most efficient for 5xxx cards. I read that 11.1 is best, albeit we already could use 13.x
1055 2013-03-23 14:17:56 <bbrox> see https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Gw7YPYgMgNNU42skibULbJJUx_suP_CpjSEdSi8_z9U/edit?pli=1#
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1064 2013-03-23 14:28:15 <canoon> bwen, it seems like a bit of a hack but I think you could just encrypt the wallet some garbage and use that on the server
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1067 2013-03-23 14:29:11 <bwen> not sure I understand... wouldnt bitcoin-d still be able to transfer bitcoins from it?
1068 2013-03-23 14:29:33 <canoon> no because the private keys would be encrypted
1069 2013-03-23 14:29:45 <bwen> why put them at all?
1070 2013-03-23 14:30:12 <canoon> yeah well if you could find a way you could just blank out the private keys from the wallet.dat
1071 2013-03-23 14:30:29 <bwen> a bit like Armory does :]
1072 2013-03-23 14:31:08 <bwen> i'm reading this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Merchant_Howto
1073 2013-03-23 14:31:31 <bwen> Pre-generating bitcoin addresses. starting to be interresting but still not it.
1074 2013-03-23 14:32:34 <bwen> but how do most sites accepting bitcoin do it? They just secure the bitcoin-d within a vpn or firewall?
1075 2013-03-23 14:33:12 <bwen> because I like the whole idea of creating an Account per client.
1076 2013-03-23 14:33:30 <Scrat> bwen: you can configure bitcoind to not listen
1077 2013-03-23 14:33:51 <bwen> Scrat: how do my web script talk to it then?
1078 2013-03-23 14:34:02 <canoon> you can still do it the way you want but just pregenerate all the addresses
1079 2013-03-23 14:34:26 <Scrat> RPC is another thing. you can have localhost only RPC
1080 2013-03-23 14:34:51 <canoon> Scrat, i think your talking about a different but equally important problem
1081 2013-03-23 14:35:27 <Scrat> I was talking about the p2p connection
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1084 2013-03-23 14:35:50 <bwen> at the end of the day it all comes down to how you secure your servers I guess
1085 2013-03-23 14:36:00 <canoon> yeah he wants to not have the private keys for the addresses on the server
1086 2013-03-23 14:36:23 <bwen> canoon: but still open to alternative. if secure...
1087 2013-03-23 14:36:24 <Scrat> sure you can do that, if you're receiving only
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1089 2013-03-23 14:36:50 <bwen> that would be like ideal, right. No private keys. web server gets hacked... cant do anything
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1091 2013-03-23 14:37:00 <Scrat> emptying your wallet every day is equally secure though
1092 2013-03-23 14:37:03 <Scrat> almost*
1093 2013-03-23 14:37:06 <canoon> well they could just replace your private keys with other ones
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1095 2013-03-23 14:37:13 <canoon> *addresses
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1097 2013-03-23 14:37:40 <canoon> bwen it seems you can generate a wallet.dat without the private keys using that pywallet
1098 2013-03-23 14:37:49 <Scrat> canoon: moot point, if they can replace your private keys they can also replace your addresses
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1100 2013-03-23 14:38:15 <canoon> yeah sorry thats what i mean
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1104 2013-03-23 14:39:57 <bwen> I wonder how Armory does it, it still relays on bitcoin-qt
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1106 2013-03-23 14:41:12 <etotheipi_> hey bwen
1107 2013-03-23 14:41:17 <etotheipi_> sorry I missed your message the other day
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1109 2013-03-23 14:41:39 <bwen> no worries
1110 2013-03-23 14:41:44 <etotheipi_> did you get it figured out?
1111 2013-03-23 14:41:51 <etotheipi_> (i.e. change addresses?)
1112 2013-03-23 14:42:06 <bwen> I dont even remember xD
1113 2013-03-23 14:42:25 <bwen> the balance transfering to a new address thing?
1114 2013-03-23 14:42:48 <etotheipi_> yeah
1115 2013-03-23 14:43:37 <bwen> yes, its normal. Its how the system works. It is incapable and shouldnt deduct from an address. So it sends the balance to a new address
1116 2013-03-23 14:43:48 <etotheipi_> :)
1117 2013-03-23 14:43:51 <bwen> you could make the same address but its not recommended
1118 2013-03-23 14:44:16 <etotheipi_> you got it
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1123 2013-03-23 14:46:09 <bwen> its just suprising the first time you see it in your transaction wallets
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1125 2013-03-23 14:46:23 <MagickFox> Hello, I'm on a fresh install and want to run bitcoin-qt but don't want to wait for the blockchain. When I look at the backup from my old install there are several blk000**.dat files in the blocks folder.
1126 2013-03-23 14:46:25 <etotheipi_> bwen: yeah, understandble... but as you noted, there's no real way around it
1127 2013-03-23 14:46:34 <MagickFox> how do I import these using bitcoin-qt -loadblock= ?
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1131 2013-03-23 14:46:44 <MagickFox> do I list them all?
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1133 2013-03-23 14:47:36 <bwen> etotheipi_: I think if it would be possible to deduct a partial amount from an address the bitcoin system as it exist now could not be.
1134 2013-03-23 14:48:31 <etotheipi_> bwen, there's a lot of advantages (i.e. simplicity ) to doing it the way it's done
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1138 2013-03-23 14:50:21 <canoon> MagickFox, can't you just replace your .bitcoin folder with the previous one?
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1140 2013-03-23 14:51:13 <MagickFox> I tried that before and it complained to me about the database being invalid or something. I've just run bitcoin-qt loadblock=blocks/blk00000.dat and it seems to be going through them all
1141 2013-03-23 14:51:16 <MagickFox> which is quite handy
1142 2013-03-23 14:51:48 <MagickFox> was the way the blockchain is stored changed recently?
1143 2013-03-23 14:52:01 <canoon> oh cool, i think there might have been a change between 0.7 and 0.8
1144 2013-03-23 14:52:03 <MagickFox> didn't it used to be in one big file. Now it appears to split into smaller files
1145 2013-03-23 14:52:07 <MagickFox> ahh ic
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1148 2013-03-23 14:54:45 <MagickFox> mmmm maybe I spoke to soon. Ahh well over half way is better than nothing
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1189 2013-03-23 15:24:11 <jgarzik> Almost 4,000 downloads of my cpuminer tarball and .exe
1190 2013-03-23 15:24:15 <jgarzik> This month
1191 2013-03-23 15:24:29 <jgarzik> Haven't touched those tarballs/exe's in... a year?
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1195 2013-03-23 15:25:26 <Belxjander> jgarzik: do you have any recommended reading for getting into mining? or know anything about setting up an FPGA image to run mining?
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1263 2013-03-23 16:29:56 <jgarzik> "We are currently at 100 out of the latest 1000 blocks on version 1 (10.00%) and 899 out of the latest 1000 blocks on version 2 (89.90%)"
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1272 2013-03-23 16:34:25 <honkydong> listreceivedbyaddress API ... is it possible to get the amount recieved by a certain address TO a certain address rather than listing the amount made in the entire wallet from them?
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1277 2013-03-23 16:39:17 <Sydna> I'm looking for some reference scripts that dilute a bitcoin wallet. just generally splitting it up and sending it around manually. do such things exist?
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1281 2013-03-23 16:42:56 <kerum> sending from a specific address in a wallet?
1282 2013-03-23 16:43:02 <kerum> Sydna
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1284 2013-03-23 16:43:12 <Sydna> presumably
1285 2013-03-23 16:43:34 saulimus has joined
1286 2013-03-23 16:43:41 <Sydna> the aim is just to create a run of random looking TX to obfuscate the origin a little
1287 2013-03-23 16:44:11 <kerum> I'd go with armory...
1288 2013-03-23 16:44:19 <kerum> it's a multiwallet client
1289 2013-03-23 16:44:35 <kerum> and you also have coin control
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1297 2013-03-23 16:48:19 <jgarzik> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1av3ub/upcoming_network_event_block_v2_lockin/
1298 2013-03-23 16:48:22 <jgarzik> (reminder PR push)
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1329 2013-03-23 17:16:06 <smellymoo> is armory supposed to be buggy and slightly shit?
1330 2013-03-23 17:16:42 <jgarzik> no
1331 2013-03-23 17:16:43 <smellymoo> memory went up to 1600MB and nothing happened for minutes every time I try and start it and it scans blockchain
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1334 2013-03-23 17:18:07 <smellymoo> that is some really weak coding, to reach over a gig in used ram in under a minute.
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1336 2013-03-23 17:19:02 <k9quaint> how big is the block chain these days?
1337 2013-03-23 17:19:13 <gonffen> ;;blockchain
1338 2013-03-23 17:19:13 <gribble> I do not know about 'blockchain', but I do know about these similar topics: 'blockchainsnapshot'
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1340 2013-03-23 17:19:17 <smellymoo> any known bug going on? anything to do with the recent faulty block or any other reasonable cause?
1341 2013-03-23 17:19:34 <gonffen> 227622
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1343 2013-03-23 17:20:08 <k9quaint> looks like the block chain size is 5.8G according to http://blockchain.info/charts/blocks-size
1344 2013-03-23 17:20:28 <smellymoo> about 2 gig, no? but that is irrelavent, as it shouldn't load the whole thing into memory, that is truely bad coding.
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1348 2013-03-23 17:22:07 <k9quaint> no, but the OS won't start reclaiming until something else needs the RAM or other thresholds are reached
1349 2013-03-23 17:22:34 <gonffen> it only seems to use about 170MB of RAM k9quaint not matter how much RAM I have available
1350 2013-03-23 17:22:44 <gonffen> no*
1351 2013-03-23 17:23:07 <k9quaint> gonffen: what OS are you using?
1352 2013-03-23 17:23:18 <gonffen> windows with bitcoin-qt 0.8.1
1353 2013-03-23 17:23:34 <gonffen> windows 7 since it does make a difference
1354 2013-03-23 17:23:36 <smellymoo> so why the over 1600MB on mine?
1355 2013-03-23 17:23:47 <k9quaint> gonffen: he is talking about armory
1356 2013-03-23 17:23:57 <gonffen> ah my bad I haven't been following
1357 2013-03-23 17:24:10 <muhoo> ah, so the v2 upgrade might explain the sudden sell-off a few hours ago
1358 2013-03-23 17:24:25 <k9quaint> ah, I see
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1360 2013-03-23 17:24:42 <k9quaint> armory is in Python, and the Python garbage collector is probably just lazing along
1361 2013-03-23 17:24:44 btcven is now known as rdymac
1362 2013-03-23 17:24:44 <k9quaint> if I had to guess
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1364 2013-03-23 17:25:38 <smellymoo> that is crap, as it is half freezing everything and the PF goes up to 2GB, so it's not a matter of the memory not being cleaned up, it's leaking and holding onto it.
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1366 2013-03-23 17:26:08 <k9quaint> its harder to leak memory in a garbage collected language, but not impossible
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1371 2013-03-23 17:26:47 <OneMiner> smellymoo I used Armory before I saw the same thing. It's the price you pay for the features. On the upside, there's no reason to have it running all the time.
1372 2013-03-23 17:26:52 <smellymoo> true, but you just load the whole block chain into memory and not bother unloading. sounds like shit coding. going back to QT
1373 2013-03-23 17:26:55 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
1374 2013-03-23 17:27:17 <k9quaint> they can't be loading the whole block chain, or it would be using over 6GB of ram
1375 2013-03-23 17:27:22 <smellymoo> doesn't run at all, doesn't get past the intial scan.
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1377 2013-03-23 17:27:32 <k9quaint> you might have a corrupted block chain
1378 2013-03-23 17:27:49 <smellymoo> can be, as it just keeps going up, had to kill it out of bordem.
1379 2013-03-23 17:27:56 <OneMiner> smellymoo How much RAM do you have
1380 2013-03-23 17:27:57 <OneMiner> ?
1381 2013-03-23 17:28:09 <smellymoo> about 2GB in this laptop.
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1383 2013-03-23 17:28:23 <k9quaint> I don't know how long it would take Armory to initialize from scratch
1384 2013-03-23 17:28:36 <OneMiner> I'd run it and let it load. Just give it a ton of time. Make a sandwich and have a shower.
1385 2013-03-23 17:28:55 <OneMiner> Smelly, shower. Get it? har har
1386 2013-03-23 17:28:57 <smellymoo> to scan 6gb for matching transactions shouldn't take more than a few minutes.
1387 2013-03-23 17:28:58 <k9quaint> try having sex with a member of the Swedish bikini team
1388 2013-03-23 17:29:11 <k9quaint> I find that most bugs seem like features after
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1390 2013-03-23 17:29:23 <smellymoo> lol
1391 2013-03-23 17:29:23 <gonffen> what?
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1393 2013-03-23 17:29:37 <muhoo> that's today's wtf.
1394 2013-03-23 17:29:50 <gonffen> please clarify: did you have sex with a member of the Swedish bikini team
1395 2013-03-23 17:30:10 <OneMiner> And how many bugs did she have?
1396 2013-03-23 17:30:22 <muhoo> take it to #bitoin-bragging
1397 2013-03-23 17:30:34 <smellymoo> if I had more time I would code a not buggy client. but I rather have sex and make money. oh well... guess I'll give up on amory. see you guys.
1398 2013-03-23 17:31:03 <muhoo> smellymoo: use the reference client if you want the latest stuff. or multibit if you really want to run a light client
1399 2013-03-23 17:31:22 <k9quaint> gonffen: no, I was suggesting that he might while waiting for his client to scan the block chain
1400 2013-03-23 17:31:42 <gonffen> heh
1401 2013-03-23 17:31:46 <OneMiner> Armory is good for cold storage and therefore doesn't need to be fast at all.
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1403 2013-03-23 17:32:01 <OneMiner> IMO
1404 2013-03-23 17:32:03 <gonffen> it's funny even though you had too explain it.. haha
1405 2013-03-23 17:32:07 <muhoo> paper wallets are good for cold storage :-P
1406 2013-03-23 17:32:17 <smellymoo> why not add these features to the main client, ain't it open source?
1407 2013-03-23 17:32:20 <OneMiner> Whatever floats your boat.
1408 2013-03-23 17:32:21 <muhoo> and really really fast too
1409 2013-03-23 17:32:45 <k9quaint> paper airplane wallet, even faster
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1414 2013-03-23 17:33:22 <smellymoo> man.... is there a serious place to whinge about shit bitcoin software?
1415 2013-03-23 17:33:27 <OneMiner> While I don't code I'm in favor of a slow development of bitcoin client software. Being cautious will pay off in the long run with less disasters.
1416 2013-03-23 17:33:42 <muhoo> smellymoo: no whinging in open source land. if it's broke, you fix it.
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1418 2013-03-23 17:33:55 <smellymoo> fair comment.
1419 2013-03-23 17:34:02 <muhoo> there is a bug tracker tho
1420 2013-03-23 17:34:07 <smellymoo> where?
1421 2013-03-23 17:34:26 <muhoo> depends on which client you're using
1422 2013-03-23 17:34:30 <smellymoo> not linked from the main website, and didn't spot it
1423 2013-03-23 17:34:41 <smellymoo> armory was the bug ridden thing.
1424 2013-03-23 17:34:47 <smellymoo> bitcoin-QT
1425 2013-03-23 17:34:51 <k9quaint> https://github.com/etotheipi/BitcoinArmory/issues
1426 2013-03-23 17:34:52 <OneMiner> So I think a simple client is best for most purposes. I recomend the standard client for nearly everybody.
1427 2013-03-23 17:35:05 <muhoo> smellymoo: https://github.com/etotheipi/BitcoinArmory
1428 2013-03-23 17:35:13 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
1429 2013-03-23 17:35:16 <muhoo> specifically https://github.com/etotheipi/BitcoinArmory/issues
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1431 2013-03-23 17:35:31 <smellymoo> thanks. I'll be off :)
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1446 2013-03-23 17:48:12 <Luke-Jr> sipa: thoughts on removing mock db for test_bitcoin now that we run in a tmp dir?
1447 2013-03-23 17:48:20 <Luke-Jr> (assuming it helps with the reorg test)
1448 2013-03-23 17:48:38 <sipa> Luke-Jr: fine by me
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1463 2013-03-23 17:59:52 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: slush and ozcoin use slush's stratum server; btcguild has something proprietary
1464 2013-03-23 18:00:06 <hardsoft> Hola
1465 2013-03-23 18:00:10 <hardsoft> Hi
1466 2013-03-23 18:00:15 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: that's pool server layer. Underneath is bitcoind
1467 2013-03-23 18:00:30 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: yes, the layer that determines the block versionâ¦
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1474 2013-03-23 18:05:20 viperaus has joined
1475 2013-03-23 18:05:28 <viperaus> hi all'
1476 2013-03-23 18:05:42 i2pRelay has joined
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1478 2013-03-23 18:06:49 viperaus has quit (Client Quit)
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1481 2013-03-23 18:09:11 <hardsoft> vv<hardsoft> You know how I can capture a transaction ID and put it on my web server?
1482 2013-03-23 18:09:26 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
1483 2013-03-23 18:09:30 viperaus has joined
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1485 2013-03-23 18:09:59 <viperaus> hi all - any live users here?
1486 2013-03-23 18:10:07 <hardsoft> yes
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1490 2013-03-23 18:10:15 <viperaus> ah great
1491 2013-03-23 18:10:20 <veox> viperaus: just ask.
1492 2013-03-23 18:10:35 <veox> (or state)
1493 2013-03-23 18:10:51 <viperaus> im trying to install a frontend for litecoin - cant get the hashrates to display correctly
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1497 2013-03-23 18:11:09 <Luke-Jr> viperaus: wrong channel, this is #bitcoin-dev, not #scams
1498 2013-03-23 18:11:16 <hardsoft> hablo español solo ;)
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1501 2013-03-23 18:12:36 <viperaus> i konw this is bitcoin-dev, seems like there is minimal info out there for litecoin
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1505 2013-03-23 18:13:57 <veox> viperaus: there is #litecoin and perhaps #litecoin-dev
1506 2013-03-23 18:14:20 <Luke-Jr> viperaus: because litecoin is just a scam
1507 2013-03-23 18:14:48 <viperaus> wasnt getting any responses there, ill try again though;
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1511 2013-03-23 18:16:10 <viperaus> could you please explain (briefly) why its a scam?
1512 2013-03-23 18:17:25 <Luke-Jr> it's off-topic here
1513 2013-03-23 18:17:57 <viperaus> ok, fair enough :) - ill jump on the other channels - thanks for your help guys
1514 2013-03-23 18:17:58 <Luke-Jr> it's basically a classical pump and dump pyramid scheme
1515 2013-03-23 18:18:17 <sipa> Luke-Jr: no offence, but if you say that, the same applies to Bitcoin
1516 2013-03-23 18:18:17 <rs0> Luke-Jr: people say the same thing about bitcoin
1517 2013-03-23 18:18:32 <Luke-Jr> sipa: not really
1518 2013-03-23 18:18:32 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
1519 2013-03-23 18:18:46 <sipa> bitcoin is an experiment, and litecoin (and several other altcoins) are just an experiment on top of that
1520 2013-03-23 18:18:55 <rs0> Luke-Jr: as I understand it, Litecoin is just a fork of bitcoin with a 2.5 minute targeted time between blocks and some kind of PBKDF hashing function
1521 2013-03-23 18:18:57 <sipa> some are really scams imho
1522 2013-03-23 18:19:01 <Luke-Jr> sipa: Bitcoin has never made misleading promises, and is not likely to end with late adopters losing out
1523 2013-03-23 18:19:28 <rs0> Luke-Jr: who is "Bitcoin?"
1524 2013-03-23 18:19:35 <sipa> i see no false claims on litecoin.org
1525 2013-03-23 18:19:36 Anduck has joined
1526 2013-03-23 18:19:48 <viperaus> sorry - didnt mean to start anything here (should have kept mouth shut :))
1527 2013-03-23 18:20:01 grau has joined
1528 2013-03-23 18:20:05 <sipa> imho, litecoin isn't all that interesting, as there are far more interesting changes that can be made to experiment with
1529 2013-03-23 18:20:19 <sipa> but that doesn't make it a scam
1530 2013-03-23 18:20:36 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I do.
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1536 2013-03-23 18:22:30 <Luke-Jr> I see one explicit false claim, and a couple of implicit ones on the front page
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1539 2013-03-23 18:23:55 <Luke-Jr> and while the Bitcoin community has experts trying to constantly correct even the promotional/positive myths about Bitcoin, the Litecoin community perpetuates such myths to improve their value
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1542 2013-03-23 18:25:00 * Eliel is curious about the explicit false claim. which is it?
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1544 2013-03-23 18:26:01 <rs0> Eliel: the stuff about faster transactions/confirmations is considered dubious, and the stuff about the total number of currency units to be produced is weird
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1546 2013-03-23 18:26:19 <sipa> well those are both objectively true
1547 2013-03-23 18:26:32 brute has joined
1548 2013-03-23 18:26:39 <rs0> sipa: they claim that litecoin enables "instant" payments
1549 2013-03-23 18:26:40 Belkaar has joined
1550 2013-03-23 18:27:07 <sipa> ok, that'd be a very broad interpretation of instant
1551 2013-03-23 18:27:10 <rs0> sipa: and just because blocks come in faster doesn't mean that six litecoin blocks gives you the same level of security as six bitcoin blocks
1552 2013-03-23 18:27:28 <sipa> rs0: depends on what kind of security, but for some models, it does
1553 2013-03-23 18:28:23 <sipa> everything where you don't assume that sustaining a high hashrate for a longer time is harder, actually
1554 2013-03-23 18:28:31 <Eliel> rs0: even so, 7 or 8 litecoins confirmations is very close to as good as 6 in bitcoin, as long as the attacker doesn't have close to 50% of hashing power.
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1557 2013-03-23 18:29:47 <rs0> sipa: i agree with you though that there are far more interesting changes to experiment with. it looks like there's a lot of room for innovation in the blockchain and litecoin isn't really attempting to provide it, it's just tweaking some tunables
1558 2013-03-23 18:29:52 i2pRelay has joined
1559 2013-03-23 18:30:21 <Luke-Jr> Eliel: "It differs from its parent Bitcoin in that can be efficiently mined with consumer-grade hardware."
1560 2013-03-23 18:31:00 Lolcust has joined
1561 2013-03-23 18:31:05 <Luke-Jr> it's not true to say Litecoin transactions are any faster to confirm
1562 2013-03-23 18:32:34 <Luke-Jr> 8 litecoin blocks deep is the same as 2 bitcoin blocks deep
1563 2013-03-23 18:33:53 FredEE has joined
1564 2013-03-23 18:35:08 <Eliel> Luke-Jr: in terms of total proof of work, yes. In terms of propability of producing long enough fork to overtake the rest of the network when the attacker has <50%, 7 or 8 is enough to match Bitcoin.
1565 2013-03-23 18:36:11 <sipa> ^
1566 2013-03-23 18:37:09 <amiller> "has close to 50% of hashing power" is a crappy attack model, you're better of looking at what the cost would be to acquire/rent that much power for a short time
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1570 2013-03-23 18:39:15 <sipa> amiller: well, ok, acquire and rent have very different results here
1571 2013-03-23 18:39:31 weLoveCP has joined
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1574 2013-03-23 18:40:07 <Eliel> amiller: true, in litecoin's case, that'd definitely be cheaper unless the number of confirmations used is 24.
1575 2013-03-23 18:41:03 <sipa> if you're talking about the price of commanding a given % of the total hash power during a fixed time frame, yes
1576 2013-03-23 18:41:12 <amiller> then that's how long you should wait before making an irreversible action at an _equal value_ in either litecoin or bitcoin
1577 2013-03-23 18:41:33 <Eliel> still, that only matters when the amount transacted is close or above to the limit.
1578 2013-03-23 18:41:49 <rs0> the fact that you can effectively CPU mine litecoin works both ways, doesn't it? you could rent a shitload of EC2 instances for a few hours and get a lot of mining power temporarily, that doesn't work with bitcoin
1579 2013-03-23 18:42:15 <Eliel> rs0: I think it'll, eventually.
1580 2013-03-23 18:42:19 <sipa> yes, and more effective CPU miners makes you also more vulnerable for botnets
1581 2013-03-23 18:43:30 <Eliel> CPU is pretty much useless for litecoin these days.
1582 2013-03-23 18:43:40 <jgarzik> Eliel: not for massive botnets
1583 2013-03-23 18:45:00 <sipa> the price to acquire X% of the total mining power for a given period of time via botnets is certainly higher for bitcoin and litecoin, and that is imho likely to remain the case after the same amount of value has been invested into the development and creation of mining hardware for both
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1587 2013-03-23 18:46:04 <sipa> but that is an inherent disadvantage to having better mining chances on consumer hardware - a claim they do make (and have perhaps failed at)
1588 2013-03-23 18:46:10 <Luke-Jr> as soon as litecoin ASICs are made, litecoin is basically dead
1589 2013-03-23 18:46:31 <amiller> also an equal-budget litecoin attack would cause a lot less damage and yield less gain for the attacker
1590 2013-03-23 18:51:41 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I fear out little discussion about BIP 34 is probably boring to most of the rest of the list - what say ye on taking if off-list?
1591 2013-03-23 18:51:51 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
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1596 2013-03-23 18:53:43 * sipa votes to keep it here
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1600 2013-03-23 18:54:37 <Sydna> is there any reason that so many bitcoin clients are running version 0.6.0? it seems crazy high for such an old build.
1601 2013-03-23 18:55:10 <brute> bots
1602 2013-03-23 18:55:12 Gnaf has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 15.0/20120830123745])
1603 2013-03-23 18:55:13 <brute> maybe
1604 2013-03-23 18:55:19 <Sydna> I wrote a quick python script to connect to random nodes and ask for the version name. almost half are 0.6.0 so far.
1605 2013-03-23 18:55:35 <Luke-Jr> Sydna: 0.6.0 was a good version
1606 2013-03-23 18:55:41 <sipa> Sydna: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/seeds.txt
1607 2013-03-23 18:55:51 <sipa> that's a dump of the database my crawler creates
1608 2013-03-23 18:56:06 <Luke-Jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/branches.html <-- summary of seeds.txt by branch
1609 2013-03-23 18:56:28 <Sydna> oh I realise the data is available, I wanted to implement something by hand
1610 2013-03-23 18:56:32 <sipa> sure
1611 2013-03-23 18:56:33 <Luke-Jr> Sydna: also, not all 0.6.0.x are necessarily old. I still maintain it (up until the final release after the pending hardfork)
1612 2013-03-23 18:57:00 <Luke-Jr> hmm, looks like only 20 nodes still running 0.6.0.x actually - not too many XD
1613 2013-03-23 18:57:22 <Luke-Jr> hey, 0.8.x gained a majority!
1614 2013-03-23 18:57:52 <Sydna> I've seen more than 20 0.6.0 nodes in my search already.
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1616 2013-03-23 18:58:36 <Sydna> 30 of 496 nodes I've seen are running 0.6.0, or at least, return that as their version name
1617 2013-03-23 18:58:51 <Luke-Jr> Sydna: are you sure you're not confusing protocol version with software version?
1618 2013-03-23 18:58:58 <Sydna> I probably am.
1619 2013-03-23 18:59:05 <Luke-Jr> the raw number is just protocol version
1620 2013-03-23 18:59:11 <Luke-Jr> the string following it is user agent
1621 2013-03-23 18:59:20 <Sydna> huzzah, that'd be it.
1622 2013-03-23 18:59:24 <sipa> also: BIP 14 :)
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1626 2013-03-23 19:03:35 <Sydna> would 2a01:4f8:141:30a6:5ee:c001:d1ce:deed be satoshidice?
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1628 2013-03-23 19:04:32 <Luke-Jr> Sydna: no, that's Eligius's mining node
1629 2013-03-23 19:04:39 <Luke-Jr> wait, 5ee is the webserver
1630 2013-03-23 19:05:07 <Luke-Jr> See cool dice deed (predating DP)
1631 2013-03-23 19:07:21 <Eliel> Luke-Jr: if it's true that a litecoin ASIC existing would kill it, no such thing will be made.
1632 2013-03-23 19:08:16 tjader has left ("WeeChat 0.3.2")
1633 2013-03-23 19:08:32 <Luke-Jr> Eliel: that does not follow
1634 2013-03-23 19:08:45 <Sydna> Luke-Jr: got it.
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1637 2013-03-23 19:09:32 <Eliel> Luke-Jr: simple, there's no profit to make one if it kills litecoin.
1638 2013-03-23 19:10:02 i2pRelay has joined
1639 2013-03-23 19:10:04 <Luke-Jr> Eliel: sure there is
1640 2013-03-23 19:10:28 <Luke-Jr> Eliel: not everyone is motivated by financial profits
1641 2013-03-23 19:10:33 <Luke-Jr> certainly not direct
1642 2013-03-23 19:10:53 <Eliel> Luke-Jr: Well, true, I certainly can't rule out you funding such a project to kill litecoin.
1643 2013-03-23 19:11:41 BTC_Bear is now known as BTC_Bear|hbrntng
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1648 2013-03-23 19:15:25 ilian000 has joined
1649 2013-03-23 19:16:11 <ilian000> Hello, is the first output address of a transaction always the destination, or could it be that it's the returning address?
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1656 2013-03-23 19:21:01 <lianj> ilian000: could be both
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1661 2013-03-23 19:23:05 <ilian000> lianj: Thanks for your reply. I saw some dumb code on github reffering the destenation address as the 1st one :O
1662 2013-03-23 19:23:16 <ilian000> destination*.
1663 2013-03-23 19:23:19 <lianj> that optimistic
1664 2013-03-23 19:23:25 bibbybob has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1665 2013-03-23 19:23:46 <lianj> if you want to be sure, none of them should be seen as returning address
1666 2013-03-23 19:24:22 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1667 2013-03-23 19:24:42 <ilian000> That's right
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1671 2013-03-23 19:26:51 <Luke-Jr> ilian000: clients intentionally randomize the order of outputs so it cannot be known
1672 2013-03-23 19:27:16 <ilian000> <Luke-Jr>: Thank you for your reply :)
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1691 2013-03-23 19:41:14 <skinnkavaj> Hahahah
1692 2013-03-23 19:41:19 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
1693 2013-03-23 19:41:20 <skinnkavaj> Its Earth Hour day
1694 2013-03-23 19:41:26 <skinnkavaj> Turn of all mining rigs!!!
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1701 2013-03-23 19:45:33 <OneMiner> Earth hour is stupid. If you want to make a diff stop throwing out all that food and walk somewhere for a change.
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1713 2013-03-23 19:56:32 <fishfish> hello fellow bitcoiners. my question is: is it a good idea (wise) to use instawallet instead of your own bitcoind server, since instawallet has 0 fees as far as I can tell
1714 2013-03-23 19:56:56 <fishfish> plus, it's easy to use though https (cxreate account, send/receive btc, etc)
1715 2013-03-23 19:57:20 <sipa> do you trust them with your money?
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1720 2013-03-23 19:58:30 <fishfish> sipa: well, if I write a script that regularly (say every hour), gather all the btc on every account, and aggregate it to a coldstorage address, I only need to trust them for that hour :) that said, I see your point... apart from trust do you see any other inconvenients?
1721 2013-03-23 19:59:16 <Luke-Jr> fishfish: I'd trust a service less if I don't see a sustainable business model
1722 2013-03-23 19:59:49 Jere_Jones has joined
1723 2013-03-23 20:00:40 <sipa> fishfish: if you're going to run such infrastructure your self to do the aggregation, what advantage does instawallet have over your own bitcoind?
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1726 2013-03-23 20:01:34 <fishfish> sipa: good point :)
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1728 2013-03-23 20:03:10 <Eliel> did electrum support read-only wallets? the determististic wallet feature could work for this.
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1742 2013-03-23 20:11:59 <TD> sipa: poke
1743 2013-03-23 20:12:09 <TD> sipa: do you know how many outputs there are in the utxo set currently? (rough estimate)
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1755 2013-03-23 20:15:17 <sipa> TD: 4M
1756 2013-03-23 20:15:24 <TD> thanks
1757 2013-03-23 20:15:40 <gmaxwell> TD: gettxoutsetinfo will tell you this.
1758 2013-03-23 20:15:48 <TD> double thanks
1759 2013-03-23 20:16:10 <gmaxwell> ah, actually no, it only gives the txn count for some odd reason.
1760 2013-03-23 20:16:15 <gmaxwell> oh no it doesn't.
1761 2013-03-23 20:16:24 <sipa> it lists both
1762 2013-03-23 20:16:25 <gmaxwell> can't read today. :)
1763 2013-03-23 20:16:30 <sipa> bytes, txn, outputs
1764 2013-03-23 20:16:59 <gmaxwell> ;;bc,blocks
1765 2013-03-23 20:16:59 <gribble> 227650
1766 2013-03-23 20:17:09 <sipa> strange, i can't remember the txouts to be more than 2x the numver of transactions
1767 2013-03-23 20:18:01 <gmaxwell> there have been a lot of transactions lately with 1000 outputs. :(
1768 2013-03-23 20:18:27 <sipa> :o
1769 2013-03-23 20:18:37 <etotheipi_> why can't we, right now, start encouraging miners to require 1 BTC fee for such transactions?
1770 2013-03-23 20:18:46 <gmaxwell> E.g. 5b4b10536f7359c0e903951cbf3806dd65b4ffb723a06e7e1913f27a65c1882c
1771 2013-03-23 20:18:56 <etotheipi_> I've seen a couple... and I've been recipient on a couple
1772 2013-03-23 20:19:18 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: you can't require fees, they're optional
1773 2013-03-23 20:19:24 <Luke-Jr> all miners can do is block them
1774 2013-03-23 20:19:27 <etotheipi_> Luke-Jr: of course...
1775 2013-03-23 20:19:35 <sipa> 780/122000 transactions with noncanonical signatures btw
1776 2013-03-23 20:19:37 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: that one, for example, had 0.025 BTC in fees.
1777 2013-03-23 20:19:52 <etotheipi_> but miners (right now, not in the future), are kinda just going along with whatever's recommended
1778 2013-03-23 20:20:07 <sipa> seems the % is rising, so i'll keep monitoring for a few more days
1779 2013-03-23 20:20:08 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: some miners, I don't think a majority.
1780 2013-03-23 20:20:15 <takeyourhatoff> gmaxwell: Do you know who sent that?
1781 2013-03-23 20:20:16 Siskiyou has joined
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1783 2013-03-23 20:20:18 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: more importantly, what algorithm do you propose?
1784 2013-03-23 20:20:27 <gmaxwell> takeyourhatoff: of course not. I assume its a deanonymization attack.
1785 2013-03-23 20:20:48 <etotheipi_> Luke-Jr: probably just something simple that only triggers if more than 10 UTXOs are created, or something along those lines
1786 2013-03-23 20:20:49 ProfMac_afk is now known as ProfMac
1787 2013-03-23 20:20:54 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: Can you propose something that doesn't just incentivize people to do the same thing with more transactions?
1788 2013-03-23 20:21:03 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: that could break sendmany for normal people
1789 2013-03-23 20:21:08 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: that just incentivized people to make more transactions, hardly seems helpful to me.
1790 2013-03-23 20:21:12 <etotheipi_> the equation could be calibrated
1791 2013-03-23 20:21:14 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1792 2013-03-23 20:21:16 <etotheipi_> to make it equal
1793 2013-03-23 20:21:35 ProfMac has quit (Quit: ProfMac_afk)
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1797 2013-03-23 20:23:16 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: I think the approach to take is some new priority calculation based on UTXO impact, and some way to combine that with fees for miner prioritization which preserves the desire to not forgo much income. But everything I've come up with is apparently objectionably complex.
1798 2013-03-23 20:24:10 <TD> i think implementing automatic wallet defragmentation would be a better use of time. it's a more general approach than trying to pick magic numbers
1799 2013-03-23 20:24:16 Diablo-D3 has joined
1800 2013-03-23 20:24:29 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: arguably, if someone is going to create 1000 txouts, we'd prefer them to do it in one tx... so it should be cheaper than sending 200 tx of 5 txouts... but either way, I think it's important thing that we can do/discuss right now
1801 2013-03-23 20:24:54 <sipa> wallet defragmentation is against your interests unless there is a fee or priority incentive to do so
1802 2013-03-23 20:24:56 <etotheipi_> TD:, wallet defragmentation works better when the network fees match the goal
1803 2013-03-23 20:25:28 <etotheipi_> so you make the fees sane, first, then clients and coin-selection will follow by nature of optimizing
1804 2013-03-23 20:25:32 <TD> well, it makes future transactions smaller
1805 2013-03-23 20:25:33 <gmaxwell> especially if the motivation is a deanonymization attack
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1809 2013-03-23 20:25:55 <gmaxwell> TD: simply never using the funds makes future transactions smaller when you're talking about sufficiently small amounts.
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1816 2013-03-23 20:30:59 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: so...working on proper fee calculations based on mempool watching: how would you suggest calculating minprio/feePerKb from mempool. If you just average things that dont get into blocks, you get a lower bound, but if you actually create a tx with that prio/fee you wont get in.
1817 2013-03-23 20:31:10 <etotheipi_> if we assume for a minute that clients will adjust instantaneously (ignore the transient fallout of a global switch in fee logic), what's wrong with just requiring 0.001 fee for each new UTXO created? and perhaps miners could send pieces of their coinbase to source addresses that clean up endless UTXOs?
1818 2013-03-23 20:31:22 ProfMac has joined
1819 2013-03-23 20:31:29 <etotheipi_> I haven't spent much time thinking about this, I just want to see what you guys have come up with starting from this simple logic
1820 2013-03-23 20:32:06 <TD> given that gavin has expressed strong support for higher block size limits, for as long as there's space left in the block it makes sense to accept transactions that reduce the size of the set. with pruning, your long term cost to such transactions is negative.
1821 2013-03-23 20:32:24 <TD> therefore, there doesn't need to be any magic numbers (0.001 may sound good today, and stupid tomorrow given fx volatility)
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1823 2013-03-23 20:33:10 <TD> just doing wallet de/refragmentation logic is enough. besides, it's needed for privacy too. over time output value sizes should converge on some kind of round-ish numbers by a kind of consensus, that way information leaks from change are minimized
1824 2013-03-23 20:33:35 <TD> ie, tiny outputs should be merged together and huge outputs should be split apart (or ideally, never combined at all)
1825 2013-03-23 20:33:58 ralphtheninja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1826 2013-03-23 20:34:33 <TD> if you have an output that you think doesn't make sense to ever spend because it's so cheap, then that implies the cost of it being in the utxo set is also zero because otherwise there's an implicit subsidy to spending it. if the cost of being in the set is extremely low or close to zero, then there's no problem. if it's higher, then at some point it becomes worth merging into a larger output (for miners).
1827 2013-03-23 20:34:59 <gmaxwell> TD: Everything you're saying is started with "as long as there's space left in the block". That case is not interesting. Sure, it's easily addressed.
1828 2013-03-23 20:35:40 <takeyourhatoff> At what point is it likely that something gets done about the block size limit? I think it would be interesting to hold off on changes and see how the network reacts when there is a fight for transactions to get into blocks.
1829 2013-03-23 20:35:46 <gmaxwell> TD: the cost of it being in the utxo set is not zero. You cannot forget it simply because you think it is not economical to spend. A future block may spend it anyways.
1830 2013-03-23 20:35:48 <TD> so it boils back down to a block size debate. if you believe block space should be artificially scarce, then it makes sense to try and come up with the "right" cost of "bad" transactions. if you don't, then it should converge on a kind of equilibrium
1831 2013-03-23 20:36:14 <TD> gmaxwell: i know. so if it's not zero, miners should have an incentive to include transactions that mop it up, even if the value of the output being spent is lower than the marginal cost of a signature validation
1832 2013-03-23 20:36:40 <gmaxwell> TD: I don't follow you there. Ultimately scarcity itself governs the behavior and will defeat any effort to have 'right' costs of 'bad' transactions.
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1835 2013-03-23 20:37:38 <gmaxwell> TD: Yes, and the concern there is that the cost is largely but not completely externalized.
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1837 2013-03-23 20:38:27 <TD> let's say a miner calculates that the cost of a maintaining a utxo entry is X (a microdollar per output per year or something), the value assigned to that output is Y<X and the cost of validating the signature and the disk seeks needed to mark it as spent/prune it out is Z. then the cost of including a transaction that spends it is Z-X. if Y>Z-X it makes sense.
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1839 2013-03-23 20:38:38 <gmaxwell> A miner accepting a utxo bloating transaction gets the fee, but only 1/N of the total cost of storing that utxo. Likewise, he only gets 1/N of the total benefit of unbloating.
1840 2013-03-23 20:39:04 <TD> if Y<Z-X then almost by definition it doesn't matter because it's not costing anyone to store it. whilst not every node mines, the UTXO maintenance costs are the same for every node
1841 2013-03-23 20:39:30 <TD> sure. so assume fees converge on 1 satoshi.
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1843 2013-03-23 20:39:59 <TD> then if you have a 1 satoshi output, wallet software can just issue transactions that spend them all to fees. they couldn't be spent anyway so there's no downside to users doing that, it costs them ~nothing
1844 2013-03-23 20:40:09 <TD> miners can use those to reduce their set maintenance costs
1845 2013-03-23 20:40:23 <sipa> if you assume every full node is an archive node (including miners), there is no problem, as the ratio of UTXO set maintainance and block storage mauntainance is aligned between miners and the rest
1846 2013-03-23 20:40:24 ralphtheninja has joined
1847 2013-03-23 20:40:32 <gmaxwell> TD: you cannot fail to store ones when Y<Z-X, because someone may simply mine a transaction spending an 'uneconomical' utxo and then the network diverges.
1848 2013-03-23 20:40:36 <sipa> but that is not a reasonablr assumption
1849 2013-03-23 20:40:37 <gwillen> Do the costs need to be the same for UTXOs that are 'likely to be spent' verus 'extremely unlikely to be spent'? Can't we push the latter out of RAM after awhile, since we will probably never see them again?
1850 2013-03-23 20:40:51 <gwillen> We still have to have them _somewhere_ but it doesn't have to be somewhere expensive
1851 2013-03-23 20:41:05 <weex> from teh Bitcoin wiki is this true? "Moves are not broadcast to the network, and never incur transaction fees; they just adjust account balances in the wallet. "
1852 2013-03-23 20:41:08 jotik has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1853 2013-03-23 20:41:14 <sipa> gwillen: then i dos attack you by spending 'inlikely' outputs :)
1854 2013-03-23 20:41:15 <weex> doesn't sound right to me
1855 2013-03-23 20:41:22 jotik has joined
1856 2013-03-23 20:41:26 <sipa> weex: it is
1857 2013-03-23 20:41:39 <gmaxwell> TD: and, of course, if you assume that fees converge to the minimum value then the network can not be secured by decenteralized mechenisms. I don't know what system you're describing TD, but it does not sound like Bitcoin.
1858 2013-03-23 20:41:43 <weex> ok thanks sipa
1859 2013-03-23 20:41:56 * gmaxwell out
1860 2013-03-23 20:41:59 <gwillen> sipa: if the outputs in question are 'economically unspendable', such a DoS is costly to you
1861 2013-03-23 20:43:08 <sipa> gwillen: that means makimg some outputs more expensive to spend, hence encouraging them to be never spent at all?
1862 2013-03-23 20:43:40 <gwillen> sipa: the issue with 'economoically unspendable' output is that they are _already_ more expensive to spend than their value
1863 2013-03-23 20:43:46 <gwillen> I'm not proposing to make them any more expensive to spend
1864 2013-03-23 20:43:49 <Luke-Jr> as long as we have gratis transactions, 'economically unspendable' outputs can be spent without a cost
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1869 2013-03-23 20:45:13 <sipa> gwillen: right, but cost to whom? to miners, or to the network as a whole?
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1872 2013-03-23 20:46:03 <sipa> because the most important cost to the network will (imho, but i don't know the future) be UTXO size maintainance
1873 2013-03-23 20:46:04 <gwillen> sipa: As I understand it, an 'economically unspendable' output is one that is so small that the fees that would be required to spend it exceed its value
1874 2013-03-23 20:46:16 <gwillen> sipa: do you agree with that definition
1875 2013-03-23 20:46:21 <sipa> no
1876 2013-03-23 20:46:22 <TD> gmaxwell: of course you still have to store it, but my point is miners are incentivised to include transactions that reduce the size of the set no matter what. and if miners will do it, and it costs users nothing to create such transactions, then they should go ahead and do so just because - why not? their wallet will do it for them
1877 2013-03-23 20:46:27 <sipa> fees aren't fized
1878 2013-03-23 20:46:54 <TD> and we've been around this before. you can fund mining via mechanisms other than every user attaching a fee to every transaction.
1879 2013-03-23 20:47:21 Ant0 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1880 2013-03-23 20:47:31 <gwillen> sipa: so the thing I am talking about is this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=150493.0
1881 2013-03-23 20:47:42 Jere_Jones has joined
1882 2013-03-23 20:47:45 <gwillen> sipa: do not take my linking to it as expressing agreement or disagreement with the positions therein ;-)
1883 2013-03-23 20:47:47 <sipa> TD: agree, but depending on such a mechanism to appear seems something i wouldn't want to do
1884 2013-03-23 20:47:51 <TD> gwillen: i'm not sure anyone knows what it means to be economically unspendable. theoretically an output where the value allocated to it is lower than the cost of validating the signature on it, but sig checking is really cheap, so that's really low.
1885 2013-03-23 20:48:07 <TD> sipa: why not? block subsidy won't go away for decades. there's plenty of time to research and implement
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1888 2013-03-23 20:48:52 <sipa> why not? because bitcoin is an experiment in making a currency that doesn't require such assumptions
1889 2013-03-23 20:48:56 <etotheipi_> btw, did people see my message about how the webpage says "Use offline backups! But good luck figuring out how!"
1890 2013-03-23 20:48:58 <sipa> (imho)
1891 2013-03-23 20:49:19 <etotheipi_> can we update that to reference *anything* to help them use offline wallets/backups?
1892 2013-03-23 20:49:20 <TD> well, i've already proposed several suggestions for funding of mining. they wouldn't be that hard to implement. they might be bogus, but also they might not.
1893 2013-03-23 20:49:27 <TD> so it's not like it's a leap into the unknown or anything
1894 2013-03-23 20:49:35 sl1982 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1895 2013-03-23 20:49:50 <sipa> maybe
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1899 2013-03-23 20:50:18 <TD> etotheipi_: you mean armory :) you could submit a pull req, but i'm not sure anyone has easy to use offline wallets today, not even armory. it's fundamentally something that most people won't do (have an entirely offline computer). and for offline backups, well, any wallet can be put on a usb stick ...
1900 2013-03-23 20:50:54 <etotheipi_> TD: if Armory is featured on the "Clients" page, and it has offline backups, then it should also be mentioned... but not just Armory. Electrum too
1901 2013-03-23 20:51:02 <TD> etotheipi_: for de-anonymization attacks, i think maybe smarter wallets can fix this. if you receive a payment you didn't ask for, and it's to a wallet that isn't marked "open/public", then just spend the funds immediately back to fees so no data is obtained
1902 2013-03-23 20:51:10 <etotheipi_> there's no reason to make it "Important!" and then give no leads whatsoever about how to do it
1903 2013-03-23 20:51:32 <TD> etotheipi_: what makes armory/electrum special in this regard? i thought electrum didn't work offline
1904 2013-03-23 20:51:43 <etotheipi_> TD: they both have offline wallet interfaces
1905 2013-03-23 20:51:52 <TD> what does "offline wallet" mean in this scenario
1906 2013-03-23 20:51:53 <sipa> TD: btw, multibit and android wallet don't use change addresses?
1907 2013-03-23 20:52:01 <etotheipi_> and the thing already says: "requires technical knowledge to use it"
1908 2013-03-23 20:52:26 <etotheipi_> if Armory is not simple enough for grandma to use, it doesn't matter... but give people links to the tools that exist
1909 2013-03-23 20:52:29 <TD> sipa: nope. right now they prefer to leak privacy than require users to know to back up wallets at some magic intervals. it sucks, deterministic wallets are the solution. what did dan say, btw?
1910 2013-03-23 20:53:00 <sipa> TD: he made one remark, that is easiy to fix
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1912 2013-03-23 20:53:08 <TD> cool. was it a serious issue?
1913 2013-03-23 20:53:18 <sipa> no, mostly theoretic
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1915 2013-03-23 20:53:41 <TD> etotheipi_: what i mean is, do they make it particularly easy to sync an online watching wallet with an offline full wallet and stuff?
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1917 2013-03-23 20:53:57 <etotheipi_> TD: have you ever used Armory's offline wallets?
1918 2013-03-23 20:54:03 <etotheipi_> it's extremely simple once it's setup
1919 2013-03-23 20:54:03 <sipa> but he did say there may be a way to avoid the parent extended pubkey +child seckey == everything revealed issue
1920 2013-03-23 20:54:12 <etotheipi_> I can't speak for Electrum, but I heard they just started doing something similar to Armory
1921 2013-03-23 20:54:19 <sipa> and if that is the case, i'm willing to change bip32 for it
1922 2013-03-23 20:54:25 <etotheipi_> "extremely simple" is relative, of course
1923 2013-03-23 20:54:25 <sipa> but he wasn't sure yet
1924 2013-03-23 20:54:25 <TD> sipa: sounds good. once you "give the word" it'll go somewhere on my todo list to merge into bitcoinj. at that point it'll be easy to make wallets transparently generate new addresses for everything
1925 2013-03-23 20:54:36 <TD> etotheipi_: i never used it, no. what's the setup process like?
1926 2013-03-23 20:54:49 <etotheipi_> TD: but yes: with Armory you create a wallet on an offline computer, and "Create a watching-only wallet"
1927 2013-03-23 20:54:58 <etotheipi_> import that on the online computer and it looks and behaves exactly like a regular wallet
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1929 2013-03-23 20:55:03 <TD> yeah
1930 2013-03-23 20:55:06 <TD> but what about going backwards
1931 2013-03-23 20:55:09 <etotheipi_> the onl ydifference is you can't "Send"
1932 2013-03-23 20:55:16 <etotheipi_> the button is grayed out
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1934 2013-03-23 20:55:45 <etotheipi_> instead, you "create offline transaction" it saves it to a USB key, you take it to the offline computer, get it signed (easy!) bring it back and Armory broadcasts it for you
1935 2013-03-23 20:56:03 <TD> ok, that's cool
1936 2013-03-23 20:56:12 <etotheipi_> I'm not sure how much easier it could get ... yes it's not for everyone... but if you're going to recommend it on the webpage, you should have links to it
1937 2013-03-23 20:56:21 <etotheipi_> to *anything*
1938 2013-03-23 20:56:28 <TD> sure, if there's a button and a gui for saving transactions to disk, signing them, moving them back etc, why not go ahead and submit a pull req pointing to your docs on how to use it
1939 2013-03-23 20:56:38 <sipa> TD: some of the discussion was also about weaknesses in ecdsa, and possible schemes to replace it
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1941 2013-03-23 20:56:46 <TD> sipa: replace ecdsa?
1942 2013-03-23 20:56:52 <etotheipi_> TD: https://bitcoinarmory.com/using-offline-wallets-in-armory/
1943 2013-03-23 20:56:57 <TD> that sounds bad ....
1944 2013-03-23 20:57:13 <sipa> TD: if there is ever a need
1945 2013-03-23 20:57:16 <etotheipi_> they don't even need links... all they have to do is have a link to external resources
1946 2013-03-23 20:57:19 <TD> oh, i see
1947 2013-03-23 20:57:33 <sipa> TD: it's good to know what improvements are possible if we do change it; not that we should
1948 2013-03-23 20:57:34 <etotheipi_> err.. to mention that "some programs offer this feature, like Armory and Electrum"
1949 2013-03-23 20:57:44 <etotheipi_> then at least people know what t ogoogle if they want it
1950 2013-03-23 20:57:57 <TD> etotheipi_: sure. saivann is very responsive. i'm sure he'd review pull for it quickly
1951 2013-03-23 20:58:28 <etotheipi_> and Armory's page will have an illustrated tutorial soon
1952 2013-03-23 20:58:31 <sipa> TD: he did suggest using a deterministically computed k, for example
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1954 2013-03-23 20:58:49 <TD> like ed25519 in other words
1955 2013-03-23 20:58:50 <sipa> sonsigning doesn't depwnd on a good PRNG
1956 2013-03-23 20:59:11 <sipa> indeed, though he believed that there were better things than ed25519 now even
1957 2013-03-23 20:59:15 <TD> huh
1958 2013-03-23 20:59:32 <TD> i suppose we could transition existing wallets to deterministic k transparently though i'm not sure it makes any sense
1959 2013-03-23 20:59:42 <TD> given that the same app/computer that generates the signatures will very likely be generating the keys to
1960 2013-03-23 20:59:43 <TD> too
1961 2013-03-23 20:59:46 <sipa> that's purely a client side issue
1962 2013-03-23 21:00:01 <sipa> you can't even detect it
1963 2013-03-23 21:00:05 <TD> in a world where keys are routinely generated independently of usage in wallets, it might be a nice improvement
1964 2013-03-23 21:00:07 <TD> yes, of course
1965 2013-03-23 21:00:52 <etotheipi_> I don't like deterministic k... there's too many ways for that to go wrong... even if your entropy is terrible, it just has to not be *the same* as a previous k
1966 2013-03-23 21:00:54 <saivann> etotheipi_ : Offline backup : I had in mind to write a full page on the subject.
1967 2013-03-23 21:01:16 <etotheipi_> saivann: that's a good idea
1968 2013-03-23 21:01:26 <BlueMatt> so...working on proper fee calculations based on mempool watching: how would people suggest calculating minprio/feePerKb from mempool. If you just average things that dont get into blocks, you get a lower bound, but if you actually create a tx with that prio/fee you wont get in.
1969 2013-03-23 21:01:40 <sipa> etotheipi_: k=hmac(message + pubkey, key=secretkey) is the usual advise
1970 2013-03-23 21:02:02 <etotheipi_> sipa: oh good point, if the message is the same, it doesn't matter if you use the same k
1971 2013-03-23 21:02:29 <etotheipi_> i was envisioning "next_k = f(last_k)" which can break in so many ways
1972 2013-03-23 21:02:34 <sipa> etotheipi_: can even be unit tested :)
1973 2013-03-23 21:03:06 <etotheipi_> saivann: have you used Armory or Electrum offline wallets?
1974 2013-03-23 21:04:05 <saivann> etotheipi_ : Nice. I think we should select important subjects such as this one and make some reference guides in the future. This can be improved days after days
1975 2013-03-23 21:05:08 <saivann> etotheipi_ : I only overviewed the features. And also played a bit with the idea of starting a light client in a temporary environment (ubuntu LiveCD si a good candidate for this)
1976 2013-03-23 21:05:17 <etotheipi_> again, I can't speak for Electrum, but the complicated/weak-security stuff I see on the forums depresses me... people should at least se existing, vetted solutions before DIY
1977 2013-03-23 21:05:35 <etotheipi_> Armory offline wallets have been around for over a year, and has 2,000 d/l per month
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1980 2013-03-23 21:06:48 <etotheipi_> saivann: you can try it out without even using a separate system... just create a regular wallet with some coins, and when you create the tx, click "Create unsigned transaction" instead of "Send"... you'll see the process it uses
1981 2013-03-23 21:07:01 <etotheipi_> you can just sign it with the same wallet, right there
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1983 2013-03-23 21:08:26 <saivann> etotheipi_ : Definitively something I want to try, and see on a dedicated page.
1984 2013-03-23 21:09:30 <saivann> etotheipi_ : But I don't promise that I wil have time to do it in a very near future as we have a lot of nice improvements to do. But if someone does something, I will welcome, review and discuss the pull request
1985 2013-03-23 21:09:36 <etotheipi_> saivann: I guess I need better marketing... because I see *endless* posts of peoples' wishlists, complaining they wish something like this existed, and convoluted ideas they come up with, using 32 terminal commands ... to do the same thing Armory does with a nice point-and-click
1986 2013-03-23 21:10:33 <etotheipi_> people don't have to use it, they should just know someone has already put a lot of secure thought into this and made it available
1987 2013-03-23 21:10:45 <MC-Droid> is it easy to get privkeys out of a wallet.dat and into armoury cold storage
1988 2013-03-23 21:10:46 <etotheipi_> I know some people will just DIY, anyway
1989 2013-03-23 21:11:01 <etotheipi_> MC-Droid: not yet... because Armory still doesn't support compressed public keys
1990 2013-03-23 21:11:04 <etotheipi_> coming soon, though
1991 2013-03-23 21:11:36 <MC-Droid> what is a compressed key
1992 2013-03-23 21:11:36 <etotheipi_> though, as usual, I recommend making the new wallet and sending the coins to it, instead of taking your previously-online address to the offline system
1993 2013-03-23 21:11:40 <sipa> etotheipi_: anyway, in case you missed it, i'm talking with dan boneh about bip32
1994 2013-03-23 21:11:53 <Luke-Jr> sipa: so it seems bdb happily eats memory until it fails, even without the mock db :/
1995 2013-03-23 21:11:57 <etotheipi_> MC-Droid: it's just a key format that doesn't match the way current Armory wallets process addresses
1996 2013-03-23 21:12:18 <MC-Droid> ok
1997 2013-03-23 21:12:18 <etotheipi_> sipa: how's that going?
1998 2013-03-23 21:12:43 <etotheipi_> I'm curious how you avoid the parent + child info leakage problem
1999 2013-03-23 21:12:46 <MC-Droid> id be interested in moving some coins from qt to armoury when its ready
2000 2013-03-23 21:12:54 <sipa> etotheipi_: me too :)
2001 2013-03-23 21:13:17 <etotheipi_> MC-Droid: out of curiosity, what are you waiting for?
2002 2013-03-23 21:13:23 <sipa> etotheipi_: he said that he saw a way that would work for trees up to depth 2, but was going to think about it more
2003 2013-03-23 21:13:34 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: out of curiosity, any ETA on removing the bitcoind dependency? :P
2004 2013-03-23 21:13:36 <etotheipi_> sipa: btw, who is this guy?
2005 2013-03-23 21:13:42 <sipa> etotheipi_: google him
2006 2013-03-23 21:13:56 <etotheipi_> Luke-Jr: what do you mean "remove bitcoind dependency" ? I'll be making it transparent, very soon
2007 2013-03-23 21:14:12 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: do your own p2p and validation
2008 2013-03-23 21:14:12 <etotheipi_> Luke-Jr: bitcoind will still be run in the background, but Armory will be doing it for you, so it looks like one app
2009 2013-03-23 21:14:25 <etotheipi_> Luke-Jr: "do your own p2p and validation" doesn't sound very secure
2010 2013-03-23 21:14:27 jotik has joined
2011 2013-03-23 21:14:36 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I got up to block 1709 before it exhausted the 4 GB virtual mem space
2012 2013-03-23 21:15:24 <etotheipi_> plus, I'm not in the business of protocol development... I'm in the business of helping you manage your funds securely
2013 2013-03-23 21:15:31 jotik has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2015 2013-03-23 21:15:56 <gwillen> etotheipi_: do you keep your own bitcoins in Armory? Can you recommend any best practices for using your software, which I understand to be in beta, to store valuable property? :-)
2016 2013-03-23 21:16:07 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: ok, you're right⦠how about not mmapping the whole blockchain? <.<
2017 2013-03-23 21:16:08 <gwillen> etotheipi_: I do have it installed but I haven't send a nontrivial number of coins to it yet
2018 2013-03-23 21:16:23 <gwillen> sent*
2019 2013-03-23 21:16:28 <etotheipi_> gwillen: yes, I keep everything in Armory
2020 2013-03-23 21:16:31 * gwillen nods
2021 2013-03-23 21:16:34 <etotheipi_> I havne't touched Bitcoin-Qt in a year
2022 2013-03-23 21:16:36 <gwillen> That is a good sign :-)
2023 2013-03-23 21:16:48 <etotheipi_> Luke-Jr: it doesn't mmap the whole blockchain
2024 2013-03-23 21:17:06 <etotheipi_> I had switched to just indexing the blockchain, mapping txids to disk locations
2025 2013-03-23 21:17:08 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: oh, I thought it did? what was the 32-bit problem then?
2026 2013-03-23 21:17:10 <etotheipi_> but that's getting a little out of hand, now
2027 2013-03-23 21:17:15 <etotheipi_> Luke-Jr: that was a year ago
2028 2013-03-23 21:17:16 <etotheipi_> :)
2029 2013-03-23 21:17:21 <Luke-Jr> XD
2030 2013-03-23 21:17:28 <etotheipi_> a lot has happened since then
2031 2013-03-23 21:18:03 <etotheipi_> but it's getting out of hand again, and that's why I'm looking to disk-based indexing (and leveldb), and shortly afterwards, not indexing the whole chain at all
2032 2013-03-23 21:18:23 <etotheipi_> gwillen: try it out, and send me lots of feedback
2033 2013-03-23 21:18:28 <gwillen> etotheipi_: *nods*
2034 2013-03-23 21:18:29 <etotheipi_> there's a lot of documentation on the website
2035 2013-03-23 21:18:42 <etotheipi_> but I'd like to think a lot of it is self-explanatory
2036 2013-03-23 21:18:49 <etotheipi_> I have endless warnings, information boxes, tooltips, etc
2037 2013-03-23 21:18:49 <Jere_Jones> etotheipi_: Last year, I contributed to your Rockethub project and, my own fault, never sent you my physical address for my goodies. Any chance I can still get those?
2038 2013-03-23 21:18:54 <gwillen> etotheipi_: I put a small number of coins in a wallet, printed a backup of it, stuck the printout on a shelf somewhere, and then haven't touched it since
2039 2013-03-23 21:18:57 <gwillen> etotheipi_: everything worked fine
2040 2013-03-23 21:19:24 <gwillen> at some point I will move the wallet aside, restore from the printout, and see what happens
2041 2013-03-23 21:19:25 <etotheipi_> gwillen: just make sure you download the latest version
2042 2013-03-23 21:19:28 <gwillen> assuming it works I will put more coins in
2043 2013-03-23 21:19:37 <gwillen> etotheipi_: what has changed?
2044 2013-03-23 21:19:40 <etotheipi_> Jere_Jones: I remember you
2045 2013-03-23 21:19:45 <Jere_Jones> :)
2046 2013-03-23 21:19:54 <etotheipi_> gwillen: there's too much to mention...
2047 2013-03-23 21:20:06 <gwillen> etotheipi_: what has changed which could threaten my bitcoins if I don't update? :-)
2048 2013-03-23 21:20:08 <etotheipi_> but the expert interface has a ton of stuff
2049 2013-03-23 21:20:13 <etotheipi_> gwillen: on that front, nothing
2050 2013-03-23 21:20:17 <gwillen> ok, sweet :-)
2051 2013-03-23 21:20:18 datagutt has joined
2052 2013-03-23 21:20:22 <MC-Droid> etotheipi_: i could just do a txn but i wanted to import keys and keep it offline
2053 2013-03-23 21:20:37 <etotheipi_> but versions older than 0.7X may not work anymore
2054 2013-03-23 21:21:17 <etotheipi_> in fact, I know it won't work... because there was some issues following the Bitcoin-Qt blockchain files
2055 2013-03-23 21:21:35 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2056 2013-03-23 21:21:43 weLoveCP has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2057 2013-03-23 21:21:59 <etotheipi_> hopefully I'll have the resource usage "addressed" in a few weeks
2058 2013-03-23 21:22:12 sgornick has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2059 2013-03-23 21:22:22 <etotheipi_> anyways, this isn't the #bitcoin-armory channel... go there if you want to chat more about it
2060 2013-03-23 21:22:29 <etotheipi_> I'm happy to help if I can'
2061 2013-03-23 21:22:51 <etotheipi_> MC-Droid: you'd be better not importing the keys anyway... since you'd rather just use the deterministic wallet
2062 2013-03-23 21:23:03 <etotheipi_> backup the four lines of text and never backup anything else ever again
2063 2013-03-23 21:23:04 n1c has joined
2064 2013-03-23 21:23:24 <etotheipi_> you have to backup all those imported keys separately
2065 2013-03-23 21:23:41 space_cadet has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2066 2013-03-23 21:23:48 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: this is #bitcoin-dev, for all Bitcoin-related development discussion :/
2067 2013-03-23 21:23:49 <MC-Droid> you have passphrase wallets?
2068 2013-03-23 21:24:19 <etotheipi_> MC-Droid: what do you mean? easy brain-wallets?
2069 2013-03-23 21:24:36 <MC-Droid> yeah
2070 2013-03-23 21:24:41 <etotheipi_> no, I don't s
2071 2013-03-23 21:24:46 <etotheipi_> "support" brainwallets
2072 2013-03-23 21:25:02 <etotheipi_> but the one-time backups are the same thing... just not memorizable
2073 2013-03-23 21:25:06 CaptainBlaze has quit (Quit: CaptainBlaze)
2074 2013-03-23 21:25:07 <etotheipi_> instead you print it and put it in a safe place
2075 2013-03-23 21:25:15 <MC-Droid> i dont want to transact my coins again if possible
2076 2013-03-23 21:25:23 <MC-Droid> its scary :<
2077 2013-03-23 21:25:30 <etotheipi_> you'll always be able to recover all your coins at a later date if you keep that paper backup
2078 2013-03-23 21:25:51 <etotheipi_> MC-Droid: I don't have a good solution for that, yet
2079 2013-03-23 21:26:05 <Luke-Jr> sipa: any ideas?
2080 2013-03-23 21:26:08 <etotheipi_> once I get the usability stuff out of the way, then I'll be working full speed on the new wallets and it will be possible
2081 2013-03-23 21:26:12 <etotheipi_> but it might be another month or two
2082 2013-03-23 21:26:19 <MC-Droid> ok cool
2083 2013-03-23 21:26:21 <etotheipi_> or 4
2084 2013-03-23 21:27:11 <skinnkavaj> why do miners pick up transactions when no fee is incldued?
2085 2013-03-23 21:27:28 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
2086 2013-03-23 21:27:36 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: to grow the economy, improving the value of their own
2087 2013-03-23 21:27:37 <skinnkavaj> and can i be 100% sure i still get my transaction done if i dont pay any fee?
2088 2013-03-23 21:27:50 <skinnkavaj> i dont mind waiting
2089 2013-03-23 21:27:57 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2090 2013-03-23 21:28:24 <MC-Droid> a day i heard
2091 2013-03-23 21:28:57 deadweasel has joined
2092 2013-03-23 21:32:09 <MC-Droid> what puts the multi in multibit
2093 2013-03-23 21:32:19 bitcoinbulletin has joined
2094 2013-03-23 21:32:24 <MC-Droid> didnt it support altchains at some.point
2095 2013-03-23 21:33:03 Nothing4You has joined
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2099 2013-03-23 21:43:04 <Luke-Jr> hmm, the growth is all on the heap
2100 2013-03-23 21:43:49 <Luke-Jr> maybe it's from saving the txns
2101 2013-03-23 21:44:46 <fishfish> hello... in terms of monitoring thousands of addresses for deposits, is the only way to simply loop through what comes out of bitcoind and check for trx since the last block?
2102 2013-03-23 21:44:47 eipeace_ has joined
2103 2013-03-23 21:45:51 <sipa> Luke-Jr: hmm, what is the problem exactly?
2104 2013-03-23 21:45:52 Xeno-Genesis has joined
2105 2013-03-23 21:46:00 <sipa> what are you doing with what code?
2106 2013-03-23 21:47:41 <Luke-Jr> sipa: same as a few days ago; problem now is a memory leak
2107 2013-03-23 21:47:56 <Luke-Jr> http://codepad.org/RYmG6O6E
2108 2013-03-23 21:49:05 <sipa> you're doing a (very) large reoeg?
2109 2013-03-23 21:49:06 bwen has joined
2110 2013-03-23 21:50:11 <gmaxwell> TD: can you point me to where you've described how decentralized security can be paid for without transaction fees? I believe I know what you've suggested there, but I don't know that I've actually seen it written up.
2111 2013-03-23 21:50:13 <sipa> fishfish: for now, pretty much
2112 2013-03-23 21:50:29 <fishfish> thank you again sipa :)
2113 2013-03-23 21:50:54 <sipa> fishfish: watch-only wallets (maybe coming in 0.9...?) can solve that
2114 2013-03-23 21:51:42 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2115 2013-03-23 21:52:07 <Luke-Jr> sipa: just building blocks so far
2116 2013-03-23 21:52:17 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I still haven't got to the reorg step
2117 2013-03-23 21:52:22 <sipa> ok
2118 2013-03-23 21:52:35 <TD> gmaxwell: hmm. i think it's scattered around in various forum posts. i should write a wiki page for it.
2119 2013-03-23 21:53:06 <bwen> What would be interesting is a way to have a development environment with only fake data.
2120 2013-03-23 21:53:17 <TD> gmaxwell: the basic idea is simple enough. it's described in the second to last paragraph of section 3 in the contracts page
2121 2013-03-23 21:53:18 <sipa> bwen: testnet?
2122 2013-03-23 21:53:19 <TD> gmaxwell: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_3:_Assurance_contracts
2123 2013-03-23 21:53:23 honkydong has joined
2124 2013-03-23 21:53:29 <TD> gmaxwell: the para that starts, "An assurance contract can be prepared that funds network security."
2125 2013-03-23 21:53:31 <bwen> sipa: never heard of it...
2126 2013-03-23 21:53:55 <bwen> looking it up, :P
2127 2013-03-23 21:54:15 <sipa> bwen: basically an alternate bitcoin network with mostly the same rules, but with valueless coins
2128 2013-03-23 21:54:17 grau has joined
2129 2013-03-23 21:54:25 <TD> gmaxwell: though that writeup is old and buggy. basically for each block you have an assurance contract with a single insta-prunable all fees output. people who care about network security but don't want to fund it all themselves take part. the contracts can be formed via a p2p network, one for each block
2130 2013-03-23 21:54:38 * TD will split it out of the contracts wiki onto a separate page
2131 2013-03-23 21:54:44 <bwen> sipa: exactly what I need :D
2132 2013-03-23 21:54:57 <TD> the "array of transactions" concept doesn't really work and isn't needed anyway. forming them is super cheap so one contract per block is quite feasible
2133 2013-03-23 21:55:09 <TD> (assuming funders are online, which for businesses they would be)
2134 2013-03-23 21:56:14 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2135 2013-03-23 21:56:37 realazthat has joined
2136 2013-03-23 21:56:39 <honkydong> any1 know a link to bitcoin rpm for centos?
2137 2013-03-23 21:58:03 <Luke-Jr> honkydong: good luck
2138 2013-03-23 21:58:16 <gmaxwell> TD: make sure your breakout explains why a network funded that way won't have an equlibrium difficulty of the minimum value.
2139 2013-03-23 21:58:34 <TD> sure
2140 2013-03-23 21:58:45 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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2148 2013-03-23 22:07:56 * Luke-Jr grumbles at Valgrind not supporting SSSE3
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2151 2013-03-23 22:09:24 <sipa> secure sse3?
2152 2013-03-23 22:10:38 dvide has joined
2153 2013-03-23 22:11:06 hal_ has joined
2154 2013-03-23 22:11:08 <Luke-Jr> sipa: whatever OpenSSL is trying to use
2155 2013-03-23 22:11:39 <BlueMatt> sipa: supplemental
2156 2013-03-23 22:12:11 <sipa> interesting
2157 2013-03-23 22:12:15 RBecker has quit (Quit: You care. You're there for me. You love me so much, and I never want to let it go. You are the one truly amazing person. MDR 3/6/11 <3)
2158 2013-03-23 22:12:55 <BlueMatt> no one wants to suggest a way to calculate min fee/prio based on the ones which are thrown away? I dont really want to just add a dumb constant or multiply by 1.1 or something...
2159 2013-03-23 22:13:27 <BlueMatt> also, I have a working mempool which limits tx fee/prio based on mempool size, not constants :)
2160 2013-03-23 22:13:38 safra has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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2162 2013-03-23 22:16:02 <Luke-Jr> maybe we can "throw away" uneconomical outputs, but keep a backup of them in some other as-needed index with a bloom filter for txs in that index
2163 2013-03-23 22:16:35 PK has quit ()
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2165 2013-03-23 22:17:06 <BlueMatt> or maybe we should tweak fee/prio rules such that uneconomical outputs arent uneconomical
2166 2013-03-23 22:17:20 one_zero has joined
2167 2013-03-23 22:18:24 <jurov> just give them to miners.. after some expiry time
2168 2013-03-23 22:18:44 CaptainBlaze has joined
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2170 2013-03-23 22:19:19 <BlueMatt> "just"
2171 2013-03-23 22:19:20 i2pRelay` has joined
2172 2013-03-23 22:19:26 <etotheipi_> geezuz, someone just emailed me asking for help with Armory... he sent me a screenshot of *wx-bitcoin* that says "183,534 blocks"
2173 2013-03-23 22:19:27 <BlueMatt> because hardforking is "just"
2174 2013-03-23 22:19:37 <BlueMatt> etotheipi_: wow....
2175 2013-03-23 22:19:50 <Luke-Jr> lolol
2176 2013-03-23 22:20:04 <Luke-Jr> ;;bc,blocks
2177 2013-03-23 22:20:04 <gribble> 227672
2178 2013-03-23 22:20:22 <etotheipi_> I pointed out the "URGENT: upgrade required" message on the bottom left
2179 2013-03-23 22:20:30 <BlueMatt> heh
2180 2013-03-23 22:20:32 <etotheipi_> yeah, June 8, 2012
2181 2013-03-23 22:20:50 o2 has joined
2182 2013-03-23 22:20:52 <etotheipi_> though, he did successfully send a transaction a month ago from it
2183 2013-03-23 22:21:00 <BlueMatt> wow...Im surprised we are still relaying that alert
2184 2013-03-23 22:21:12 <etotheipi_> but, obviously, it's been stuck at 0 confirmations
2185 2013-03-23 22:21:43 <BlueMatt> is he one of those who thinks upgrading past where satoshi left off is "bad"?
2186 2013-03-23 22:21:49 <BlueMatt> (I didnt realize we still had those people)
2187 2013-03-23 22:22:09 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: what verison is he at?
2188 2013-03-23 22:22:32 FredEE has joined
2189 2013-03-23 22:23:31 <sipa> etotheipi_: let me guess: debian with bitcoin 0.3.24?
2190 2013-03-23 22:24:10 <etotheipi_> I couldn't tell
2191 2013-03-23 22:24:34 <TD> debiannnnn!!!!
2192 2013-03-23 22:25:02 nimdAHK has joined
2193 2013-03-23 22:25:29 <etotheipi_> I guess this is further anecdotes for having automatic update options... some people just don't do it, otherwise
2194 2013-03-23 22:25:36 <sipa> jgarzik: what is the reason for UDP?
2195 2013-03-23 22:25:51 <sipa> jgarzik: especially when it requires a TCP control connection, i don't see much advantage
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2201 2013-03-23 22:28:38 <TD> sipa: i was thinking the same ...
2202 2013-03-23 22:29:15 o2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2203 2013-03-23 22:29:22 <skinnkavaj> new bitcoin slogan "Get rich or die mining"
2204 2013-03-23 22:31:35 Ant0 has quit (Quit: Going down? PANIC!. SELL SELL SELL, SKY IS FALLING! - If this quit made you smile... donate atleast 0.00000001, or better 0.01 to 1H6wsbZ8XEtAqnqBbuVkYdBycDfjnmTK95 :P)
2205 2013-03-23 22:32:17 o2 has joined
2206 2013-03-23 22:32:25 <hal_> get rich or get new acis hardware
2207 2013-03-23 22:33:50 <sipa> skinnkavaj: Bitcoin, mining our own business since 2009 :)
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2209 2013-03-23 22:35:27 <warren> sipa: that's terrible =)
2210 2013-03-23 22:35:27 <skinnkavaj> sipa hahahahahahah
2211 2013-03-23 22:35:31 i2pRelay has joined
2212 2013-03-23 22:35:34 <skinnkavaj> cheers
2213 2013-03-23 22:35:37 <skinnkavaj> u made my day
2214 2013-03-23 22:36:03 <sipa> warren: a friend of mine came up with it, but i like it :p
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2220 2013-03-23 22:45:17 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: upgrade your valgrind.
2221 2013-03-23 22:45:23 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: latest version!
2222 2013-03-23 22:45:29 <gmaxwell> to svn. :P
2223 2013-03-23 22:45:35 <Luke-Jr> â¦
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2226 2013-03-23 22:47:02 <kjj> jgarzik around?
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2261 2013-03-23 23:03:35 <jgarzik> kjj: in and out
2262 2013-03-23 23:03:41 [\\\] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2263 2013-03-23 23:03:45 <jgarzik> kjj: will see any IRC messages and respond eventually :)
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2267 2013-03-23 23:04:51 <kjj> do you have a UDP node? I probably won't be able to get one built until Monday, but I figured it would be pointless without a peer
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2287 2013-03-23 23:17:48 <sipa> TD: btw, fair enough regarding change keys - actually improved privacy probably needs more elaborate solutions anyway
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2294 2013-03-23 23:21:12 <TD> sipa: well, i hate the current setup, but even I don't know when to back up my wallet. i just take it on faith that i do it frequently enough based on my knowledge of how bitcoin works. so for bitcoinj to use a key pool, i'd want wallet apps to alert users when it was getting time to refresh their backups, and of course have a rolling pool. it can be done, but i figured the complexity made it worth just waiting for deterministic wallets
2295 2013-03-23 23:21:13 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2296 2013-03-23 23:21:18 <lianj> btw, wasn't there a topic if you consolidate lots of tiny inputs into one output that you can pay less fee for it?
2297 2013-03-23 23:21:22 <TD> as that seems the ideal "have cake and eat it" solution
2298 2013-03-23 23:21:25 <powersirj> im using 2 ATI 7870 cards with GUI miner how do i know the mhs per card
2299 2013-03-23 23:21:34 <TD> gmaxwell: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=157141.0
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2301 2013-03-23 23:22:09 <gmaxwell> man, the forum should ban people for reserving response positions like that.
2302 2013-03-23 23:22:43 <powersirj> any help please
2303 2013-03-23 23:22:44 <sipa> TD: yeah, agree - there is one disadvantage to deterministic wallets, namely that stolen wallet keys don't become "unstolen" over time
2304 2013-03-23 23:22:44 <TD> like what?
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2306 2013-03-23 23:23:08 <sipa> TD: but i think that doesn't weigh up against infinitely usable backups + change addresses
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2308 2013-03-23 23:23:20 <TD> sipa: it only matters if people steal keys and then wait before stealing the value associated with them. i'm not sure why anyone would do that.
2309 2013-03-23 23:23:32 <CodeShark> right, TD
2310 2013-03-23 23:23:37 <gwillen> sipa: that seems minor as long as teh client lets you make a second wallet and use them both
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2312 2013-03-23 23:23:39 <Graet> powersirj, this is #bitcoin-dev try #bitcoin-mining
2313 2013-03-23 23:23:44 <gwillen> then it's easy to transfer the value to unsteal it
2314 2013-03-23 23:23:56 <powersirj> thanks
2315 2013-03-23 23:24:14 <sipa> gwillen: yes, for a deterministic wallet implementation in bitcoin-qt, i intend to have a "reset deterministic key" button, that tells you to make a new backup immediately :)
2316 2013-03-23 23:24:23 * gwillen nods
2317 2013-03-23 23:24:33 <gwillen> sipa: that performs a transfer through the network from the old key to the new one?
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2320 2013-03-23 23:25:21 <sipa> gwillen: no, it could do that too, but just by resetting, you know your former backup will expire over time (though how long is hard to guess)
2321 2013-03-23 23:25:38 <gwillen> ahhhh, I see
2322 2013-03-23 23:25:40 * gwillen nods
2323 2013-03-23 23:25:49 <gwillen> so it keeps the old key but uses the new one for all new address generation?
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2325 2013-03-23 23:26:23 <sipa> indeed!
2326 2013-03-23 23:27:07 <gwillen> Cool.
2327 2013-03-23 23:27:43 <TD> sipa: it might be better to let it use multiple independent wallets
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2329 2013-03-23 23:27:58 <TD> sipa: then "reset wallet" is simply "create new wallet" and abandonment of the old one
2330 2013-03-23 23:28:16 <sipa> TD: true - i certainly want multiwallet support
2331 2013-03-23 23:28:23 <sipa> (and CodeShark already has a pullreq for that)
2332 2013-03-23 23:28:59 <CodeShark> now that the bitcoin-qt changes to support multiple wallets are being merged, I'm going to rework the core multiwallet stuff to make that easy to merge as well
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2334 2013-03-23 23:29:39 <CodeShark> the point of greatest contention might be the RPC
2335 2013-03-23 23:30:27 Nothing4You has joined
2336 2013-03-23 23:30:50 <CodeShark> I use a multiwallet build of bitcoind for my actual bitcoin transactions and I love it :)
2337 2013-03-23 23:31:01 <CodeShark> would be even better with deterministic wallets
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2339 2013-03-23 23:31:07 <CodeShark> less frequent need for backups
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2344 2013-03-23 23:36:25 <coinners> ;;bids 6
2345 2013-03-23 23:36:28 <gribble> There are currently 210013.12 bitcoins demanded at or over 6.0 USD, worth 6383783.70894 USD in total. | Data vintage: 0.0143 seconds
2346 2013-03-23 23:36:29 <coinners> ;;bids 61
2347 2013-03-23 23:36:29 <gribble> There are currently 5449.7232 bitcoins demanded at or over 61.0 USD, worth 337559.476792 USD in total. | Data vintage: 1.4530 seconds
2348 2013-03-23 23:36:38 <coinners> ;;bids 20
2349 2013-03-23 23:36:38 <gribble> There are currently 127800.98 bitcoins demanded at or over 20.0 USD, worth 5509622.93829 USD in total. | Data vintage: 10.2133 seconds
2350 2013-03-23 23:36:43 <coinners> ;;bids 30
2351 2013-03-23 23:36:43 <gribble> There are currently 104926.4 bitcoins demanded at or over 30.0 USD, worth 4948114.35355 USD in total. | Data vintage: 14.9274 seconds
2352 2013-03-23 23:36:54 <coinners> ;;bids 63
2353 2013-03-23 23:36:54 <gribble> There are currently 605.82068 bitcoins demanded at or over 63.0 USD, worth 38470.9480614 USD in total. | Data vintage: 26.6492 seconds
2354 2013-03-23 23:37:01 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2355 2013-03-23 23:37:01 <coinners> ;;bids 64
2356 2013-03-23 23:37:01 <gribble> There are currently 11.8221 bitcoins demanded at or over 64.0 USD, worth 757.861920342 USD in total. | Data vintage: 33.2925 seconds
2357 2013-03-23 23:37:13 <coinners> how do I get access to gribble API ?
2358 2013-03-23 23:37:23 <coinners> or gribble is using mtGox API?
2359 2013-03-23 23:37:24 <sipa> coinners: not here, please
2360 2013-03-23 23:38:01 <coinners> sipa: what exactly?
2361 2013-03-23 23:38:06 <coinners> making questions?
2362 2013-03-23 23:38:17 <coinners> I'm curious on how to replicate the bids command
2363 2013-03-23 23:38:31 <Graet> coiners try #gribble this is #bitcoin-dev
2364 2013-03-23 23:38:50 <coinners> Graet, thanks mate!
2365 2013-03-23 23:38:50 <coinners> :)
2366 2013-03-23 23:38:54 <Graet> :)
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