1 2013-03-24 00:03:10 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2 2013-03-24 00:03:42 i2pRelay has joined
3 2013-03-24 00:09:29 <etotheipi_> am I hallucinating or are we really generating blocks like ever 3 minutes?
4 2013-03-24 00:10:20 Bohren has joined
5 2013-03-24 00:10:41 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin.png
6 2013-03-24 00:10:54 <aXs__> Blocks/hour 9.13 / 395 s
7 2013-03-24 00:11:06 <warren> I'm guessing lots of avalons were delivered.
8 2013-03-24 00:11:12 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
9 2013-03-24 00:11:17 <gmaxwell> Mine arrived last week.
10 2013-03-24 00:11:37 Impaler has joined
11 2013-03-24 00:11:44 i2pRelay has joined
12 2013-03-24 00:11:53 <gmaxwell> avalons are 20TH or so, plus asicminer has still been turning on hashpower and say they will have 50TH online in april.
13 2013-03-24 00:12:26 <etotheipi_> each avalon does 20 TH/s?
14 2013-03-24 00:12:49 <etotheipi_> how much do they cost (if I could get in front of the queue)?
15 2013-03-24 00:13:07 <Graet> no they do 60-70gh each
16 2013-03-24 00:13:34 <Graet> batch 3 is selling for 88 -115btc
17 2013-03-24 00:13:59 <Graet> which put them ~$5k, but batch 2 were $1600
18 2013-03-24 00:14:22 <Graet> batch3 not on sale yet, batch 2 shipping delayed
19 2013-03-24 00:14:33 user_corrupt has joined
20 2013-03-24 00:14:34 <hmmmstrange> $1600 @ $19 coins
21 2013-03-24 00:14:37 nsillik has joined
22 2013-03-24 00:14:52 <TD> asicminer will have 50T in a month? yikes
23 2013-03-24 00:15:00 <Graet> yes
24 2013-03-24 00:15:02 <TD> good thing they're spreading across pools. but even so.
25 2013-03-24 00:15:06 <TD> that's not good
26 2013-03-24 00:15:25 * TD was really amazed by how many people signed up for those shares
27 2013-03-24 00:15:36 <kjj> I'd have an easier time believing in the impending 50 if they managed to get their full 12 up soon
28 2013-03-24 00:15:38 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
29 2013-03-24 00:15:48 <TD> how do you know they didn't?
30 2013-03-24 00:15:54 <etotheipi_> when you say asic miner will have 50T... you mean across all units shipped?
31 2013-03-24 00:16:22 <kjj> asicminer isn't shipping, they are running internally
32 2013-03-24 00:16:42 <etotheipi_> oh yeah, that sounds bad
33 2013-03-24 00:17:36 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
34 2013-03-24 00:18:31 <Graet> selling "shares in the company" but holding hardware
35 2013-03-24 00:18:34 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
36 2013-03-24 00:18:43 nsillik has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
37 2013-03-24 00:19:13 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
38 2013-03-24 00:19:29 sebicas has joined
39 2013-03-24 00:19:45 i2pRelay has joined
40 2013-03-24 00:21:39 <Graet> are wefully on v2 blocks yet?
41 2013-03-24 00:22:37 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Quit: bitcoinbulletin)
42 2013-03-24 00:23:04 randy-waterhouse has joined
43 2013-03-24 00:23:21 TradeFortress has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
44 2013-03-24 00:23:46 TradeFortress has joined
45 2013-03-24 00:24:53 <denisx> We are currently at 91 out of the latest 1000 blocks on version 1 (9.10%) and 909 out of the latest 1000 blocks on version 2 (90.90%)
46 2013-03-24 00:25:06 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
47 2013-03-24 00:25:06 <gribble> 227693
48 2013-03-24 00:26:50 ovidiusoft has quit (Quit: leaving)
49 2013-03-24 00:27:16 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
50 2013-03-24 00:27:28 <hal_> how hard is it to learn how to mine?
51 2013-03-24 00:27:40 <thermoman> just find a shovel and get going
52 2013-03-24 00:27:45 <hal_> is it really just getting some 5770 and calling it a day?
53 2013-03-24 00:27:48 i2pRelay has joined
54 2013-03-24 00:27:55 <hmmmstrange> i'm a prospector, i can get you started in a few hours
55 2013-03-24 00:28:06 <gmaxwell> hal_: mostly, though 5770's arent so useful anymore.
56 2013-03-24 00:28:06 <etotheipi_> haha, I wouldn't GPU mine unless you need to heat your house
57 2013-03-24 00:28:15 <denisx> hal_: wrong channel, go to bitcoin-mining
58 2013-03-24 00:28:15 <etotheipi_> (which I do, by the way)
59 2013-03-24 00:29:01 <etotheipi_> (still have 10 GPUs running and haven't turned on the heat all winter!)
60 2013-03-24 00:29:32 <hal_> sorry I thought i saw things about asicminer
61 2013-03-24 00:29:40 <Graet> winter is coming and its time to turn my cards off :/
62 2013-03-24 00:29:42 <etotheipi_> (the girlfriend is not fond of the 4-GPU monster in the corner of the bedroom, though)
63 2013-03-24 00:29:54 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: but it keeps the room warm!
64 2013-03-24 00:30:18 o2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
65 2013-03-24 00:30:30 lodse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
66 2013-03-24 00:31:10 o2 has joined
67 2013-03-24 00:31:24 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: I told her I'll remove if she pays for the extra energy bill + 4 BTC per month (because it heats more efficiently than my HVAC!)
68 2013-03-24 00:31:29 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
69 2013-03-24 00:31:34 <etotheipi_> she didn't like that :/
70 2013-03-24 00:31:50 bwen has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
71 2013-03-24 00:32:20 bitcoinbulletin has joined
72 2013-03-24 00:32:41 <sipa> etotheipi_: i hope you have a very large bedroom
73 2013-03-24 00:32:49 <sipa> i couldn't sleep even with a laptop in my room ;)
74 2013-03-24 00:33:31 <gmaxwell> sipa: you get used to itâ the whitenoise is eventually comforting
75 2013-03-24 00:33:38 <etotheipi_> I can't sleep *without* white noise
76 2013-03-24 00:33:43 <BlueMatt> ^this
77 2013-03-24 00:35:17 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
78 2013-03-24 00:35:50 i2pRelay has joined
79 2013-03-24 00:39:30 <OneMiner> Any -offtopic ops here?
80 2013-03-24 00:42:05 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
81 2013-03-24 00:42:54 realazthat has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
82 2013-03-24 00:43:19 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
83 2013-03-24 00:43:52 i2pRelay has joined
84 2013-03-24 00:44:36 <jgarzik> OneMiner: I'm an op, and ready to go offtopic at a moment's notice
85 2013-03-24 00:45:20 realazthat has joined
86 2013-03-24 00:45:38 <Luke-Jr> ==5434== definitely lost: 247,277,052 bytes in 3,486,797 blocks
87 2013-03-24 00:45:43 <sipa> over 10% of transactions with non-canonical sigs the past 2 days have been made by 125iNj3y1figYKgFVoXaf88mCGoRxwXmRE
88 2013-03-24 00:46:02 <sipa> Luke-Jr: can you track where those were allocated?
89 2013-03-24 00:46:16 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: on what branch?
90 2013-03-24 00:46:32 <Luke-Jr> sipa: would I be getting those simply because of not using special openssl/bdb?
91 2013-03-24 00:46:39 zooko has joined
92 2013-03-24 00:46:41 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: test code
93 2013-03-24 00:46:49 <sipa> Luke-Jr: no
94 2013-03-24 00:47:41 <Luke-Jr> the majority is allocated in DbEnv::open
95 2013-03-24 00:47:50 <Luke-Jr> via __lock_region_init
96 2013-03-24 00:48:09 <Luke-Jr> http://codepad.org/h8QjbR1D
97 2013-03-24 00:50:39 <etotheipi_> sipa: just FYI... while testing the run-bitcoind-in-background, I have started and hard-killed bitcoind probably hundreds of times in the past couple days
98 2013-03-24 00:50:53 <etotheipi_> so far, I still have not corrupted anything
99 2013-03-24 00:51:20 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
100 2013-03-24 00:51:38 <sipa> Luke-Jr: is DbEnv closed in the test setup?
101 2013-03-24 00:51:47 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
102 2013-03-24 00:51:47 <sipa> after running
103 2013-03-24 00:51:52 i2pRelay has joined
104 2013-03-24 00:51:56 rbecker is now known as RBecker
105 2013-03-24 00:52:39 <sipa> etotheipi_: i haven't ever been able to corrupt my leveldb's either, except with some very aggressive deliberate attemps :)
106 2013-03-24 00:52:45 <sipa> like writing random data to files
107 2013-03-24 00:52:52 <etotheipi_> sipa: haha, I won't be doing that
108 2013-03-24 00:52:59 <etotheipi_> but I was expecting to *eventually* break
109 2013-03-24 00:53:07 <sipa> even randomly deleting .sst files is often just fine
110 2013-03-24 00:53:20 <sipa> you end up with an older state, and it continues from there
111 2013-03-24 00:53:37 <sipa> at least if it's recent files
112 2013-03-24 00:53:53 <sipa> still... people do report corrupted databases
113 2013-03-24 00:54:38 <etotheipi_> sipa: is that the message about "delete everything but wallet.dat"?
114 2013-03-24 00:55:32 <sipa> that's when there's a problem with BDB, i think
115 2013-03-24 00:55:43 <etotheipi_> wait, what BDB?
116 2013-03-24 00:55:53 <sipa> leveldb errors detected at startup will ask if you want to reindex
117 2013-03-24 00:55:54 <etotheipi_> "Error: Error initializing database environment /home/alan/.bitcoin! To recover, BACKUP THAT DIRECTORY, then remove everything from it except for wallet.dat"
118 2013-03-24 00:56:06 <sipa> yeah, that's BDB
119 2013-03-24 00:56:06 <etotheipi_> is that DB corruption?
120 2013-03-24 00:56:11 <sipa> yes
121 2013-03-24 00:56:14 htdgjnrteshr has joined
122 2013-03-24 00:56:14 <etotheipi_> what's still using BDB?
123 2013-03-24 00:56:18 <sipa> the wallet
124 2013-03-24 00:56:22 <etotheipi_> oh, duh
125 2013-03-24 00:56:47 <sipa> it shouldn't tell you that anymore, actually
126 2013-03-24 00:57:04 <etotheipi_> I still get it occasionally when switching bitcoind versions
127 2013-03-24 00:57:13 brson has quit (Quit: leaving)
128 2013-03-24 00:57:56 <lianj> btw, any bets? is the blockchain at 10GB at the end of this year?
129 2013-03-24 00:59:00 <htdgjnrteshr> http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png amazing bitcoin mining monster
130 2013-03-24 00:59:01 <htdgjnrteshr> http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png amazing bitcoin mining monster
131 2013-03-24 00:59:02 <htdgjnrteshr> http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png amazing bitcoin mining monster
132 2013-03-24 00:59:02 <htdgjnrteshr> http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png amazing bitcoin mining monster
133 2013-03-24 00:59:03 <htdgjnrteshr> http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png amazing bitcoin mining monster
134 2013-03-24 00:59:03 <htdgjnrteshr> http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png amazing bitcoin mining monster
135 2013-03-24 00:59:04 <htdgjnrteshr> http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png amazing bitcoin mining monster
136 2013-03-24 00:59:04 <htdgjnrteshr> http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png amazing bitcoin mining monster
137 2013-03-24 00:59:09 randy-waterhouse has left ("Freedom.")
138 2013-03-24 00:59:22 ikbenwouter has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
139 2013-03-24 00:59:23 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
140 2013-03-24 00:59:27 <MC-Droid> asicminer will have 50th?
141 2013-03-24 00:59:33 <MC-Droid> thats horrific
142 2013-03-24 00:59:54 i2pRelay has joined
143 2013-03-24 01:00:30 <Luke-Jr> sipa: dunno, I just ctrl-c
144 2013-03-24 01:01:09 <helo> seems kind of strange that getpeerinfo shows two 127.0.0.1 entries
145 2013-03-24 01:01:27 <MC-Droid> i think its obvious bitcoin absolutely cannot rely on the rationality of its participants to survive now
146 2013-03-24 01:01:42 <MC-Droid> more like despite of
147 2013-03-24 01:01:46 <sipa> Luke-Jr: add a bitdb.EnvShutdown() to ~TestingSetup
148 2013-03-24 01:01:58 <helo> running a tor hidden service node and listening on ipv4
149 2013-03-24 01:02:16 <sipa> helo: it has no way of knowing the actual peer address
150 2013-03-24 01:02:26 <sipa> on tor, it doesn't even necessarily have one
151 2013-03-24 01:02:49 <helo> ahhh, so those are non-hidden-service tor connections
152 2013-03-24 01:02:54 tvisdog has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
153 2013-03-24 01:03:14 <sipa> Luke-Jr: actually, that shouldn't be necessary
154 2013-03-24 01:03:28 <sipa> hmmm
155 2013-03-24 01:03:42 <sipa> helo: not sure what you mean
156 2013-03-24 01:03:52 <sipa> helo: tor connections don't have a "from" address whatsoever
157 2013-03-24 01:04:15 kalleboo has joined
158 2013-03-24 01:04:19 <sipa> helo: they themself could be running a node that listens on a hidden service, and they can advertize that
159 2013-03-24 01:04:33 <sipa> but that still doesn't make it a from address; all bitcoind sees is a connection coming from 127.0.0.1
160 2013-03-24 01:04:40 <sipa> (your tor daemon)
161 2013-03-24 01:04:42 <helo> right
162 2013-03-24 01:04:55 <helo> thanks :)
163 2013-03-24 01:07:26 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
164 2013-03-24 01:07:58 i2pRelay has joined
165 2013-03-24 01:08:11 fdsagewa has joined
166 2013-03-24 01:09:01 rowit has joined
167 2013-03-24 01:09:09 ielo has joined
168 2013-03-24 01:09:18 <fdsagewa> http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 - http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 -
169 2013-03-24 01:09:18 <fdsagewa> http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 - http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 -
170 2013-03-24 01:09:18 <fdsagewa> http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 - http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 -
171 2013-03-24 01:09:19 <fdsagewa> http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 - http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 -
172 2013-03-24 01:09:19 <fdsagewa> http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 - http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 -
173 2013-03-24 01:09:20 <fdsagewa> http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 - http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 -
174 2013-03-24 01:09:20 <fdsagewa> http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 - http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 -
175 2013-03-24 01:09:20 <fdsagewa> http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 - http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 -
176 2013-03-24 01:09:21 <fdsagewa> http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 - http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 -
177 2013-03-24 01:09:21 qwertyoruiop is now known as zz_qwertyoruiop
178 2013-03-24 01:09:22 <fdsagewa> http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 - http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 -
179 2013-03-24 01:09:22 <fdsagewa> http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 - http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 -
180 2013-03-24 01:09:23 <fdsagewa> http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 - http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 -
181 2013-03-24 01:09:23 <fdsagewa> http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 - http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 -
182 2013-03-24 01:09:24 <fdsagewa> http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 - http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 -
183 2013-03-24 01:09:24 <fdsagewa> http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 - http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 -
184 2013-03-24 01:09:25 <fdsagewa> http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 - http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png 50btc free2 btc only usd1199 -
185 2013-03-24 01:09:38 <K1773R> wtf, we dont have a bot who kicks spammers? :(
186 2013-03-24 01:11:47 darkee has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
187 2013-03-24 01:12:03 <HM> gribble is more the tax the spammers sort
188 2013-03-24 01:13:34 caedes has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
189 2013-03-24 01:15:08 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
190 2013-03-24 01:15:19 nelisky has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
191 2013-03-24 01:15:27 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
192 2013-03-24 01:15:59 i2pRelay has joined
193 2013-03-24 01:16:54 joh______ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
194 2013-03-24 01:17:35 <gmaxwell> Gribble does, but not in here.
195 2013-03-24 01:17:38 joh______ has joined
196 2013-03-24 01:17:44 <gmaxwell> and the spammer/scammer keeps shifting.
197 2013-03-24 01:20:37 nelisky has joined
198 2013-03-24 01:23:29 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
199 2013-03-24 01:24:01 i2pRelay has joined
200 2013-03-24 01:26:23 <owowo> OMG! 50btc only 1199!! I GOT BUY!
201 2013-03-24 01:27:36 <SwedFTP> Has there ever been any discussion on associating domains with an address possibly via a TXT record? I've heard that in the earlier days you were able to send bitcoin to IP's running a client, however I haven't heard whether or not anything has ever been implemented or talked about like I asked above.
202 2013-03-24 01:28:09 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
203 2013-03-24 01:28:20 <gavinandresen> SwedFTP: https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/4120476 <-- I'm near the end of implementing this
204 2013-03-24 01:28:42 <gmaxwell> owowo: are you kidding or are you a shill for the scammer? :P
205 2013-03-24 01:29:24 TheButterZone has joined
206 2013-03-24 01:29:32 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: I wrote you a memory-limited mempool, and am working on a better worst-case algo for receiver pays
207 2013-03-24 01:29:46 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: awesome!
208 2013-03-24 01:30:09 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: using union-find for set coloring?
209 2013-03-24 01:30:42 <sipa> gavinandresen: hmm, refund_to is an Output?
210 2013-03-24 01:30:54 <sipa> gavinandresen: sounds like it should be bytes script
211 2013-03-24 01:31:18 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: havnt decided exactly how Im gonna do it yet...just started working on it
212 2013-03-24 01:31:30 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
213 2013-03-24 01:31:58 <gavinandresen> sipa: repeated bytes scripts? TD wants multiple everything....
214 2013-03-24 01:31:59 <gmaxwell> I still feel a little uneasy about memory-limited mempools. I wonder if past 2-3 x the current blocksize if it shouldn't use priority weighed random eviction to make flooding out a transaction less reliable.
215 2013-03-24 01:32:02 i2pRelay has joined
216 2013-03-24 01:32:39 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: hmm?
217 2013-03-24 01:33:00 darinmorrison has quit ()
218 2013-03-24 01:33:26 bakingbread has quit (Quit: quit)
219 2013-03-24 01:33:44 <gavinandresen> yeah, hmm? mempool eviction will be least-fee or least-priority....
220 2013-03-24 01:33:48 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I pay you with a low priority transaction, then I flood out the mempool to make that txn get forgotten and replace it with a double spend.
221 2013-03-24 01:33:51 <gavinandresen> (I assume)
222 2013-03-24 01:34:09 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: flood it out with high-priority transactions?
223 2013-03-24 01:34:18 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: yes.
224 2013-03-24 01:34:19 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: meh, why should you not be allowed to do that?
225 2013-03-24 01:34:33 <gavinandresen> ⦠and anyway, better double-spend detection/reporting should be done, too. That's orthogonal
226 2013-03-24 01:34:43 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: because it dramatically reduces the security of unconfirmed transactions.
227 2013-03-24 01:35:01 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: the double spend would not be detectedâ after all the flood out makes everyone forget the transaction.
228 2013-03-24 01:35:10 gruez has joined
229 2013-03-24 01:35:14 <BlueMatt> well if you have the ability to create that many high-prio txn...
230 2013-03-24 01:35:17 <gmaxwell> Thats why I was suggesting randomizing it somewhat, that way its likely _some_ node would still remember it.
231 2013-03-24 01:35:23 <BlueMatt> and anyway, you can detect that attack as the receiver
232 2013-03-24 01:35:32 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: How?
233 2013-03-24 01:35:45 <gavinandresen> double-spend detection will have a separate big list of (txid,nOut). At least, that's what I imagine
234 2013-03-24 01:36:01 <gavinandresen> well, (txid,nOut,count). And that could be randomly evicted
235 2013-03-24 01:36:16 <BlueMatt> well, mempool size is configurable, so its not const across network, and my impl isnt entirely deterministic, though Im not sure if its enough to break such an attack
236 2013-03-24 01:36:18 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: and besides, in any case it's too late at that point. E.g. you'd exclude accepting unconfirmed for lower value transactions than the current system does.
237 2013-03-24 01:36:22 <gavinandresen> ⦠no reason to tie the double-spend detection to the mempool
238 2013-03-24 01:36:34 viperhr1 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
239 2013-03-24 01:36:57 <comboy> these payment requests will be stored in the blockchain?
240 2013-03-24 01:36:59 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: hm. That sounds okay to me.
241 2013-03-24 01:37:02 FredEE has joined
242 2013-03-24 01:37:15 FredEE has quit (Client Quit)
243 2013-03-24 01:37:37 <BlueMatt> or you'd just have that one node on the network with 10GB mempool that will ALWAYS find double-spends and alert people
244 2013-03-24 01:37:41 rowit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
245 2013-03-24 01:37:56 <sipa> gavinandresen: so, multiple bytes? i just mean that a refund_to doesn't need an amount
246 2013-03-24 01:38:18 <sipa> comboy: absolutely not
247 2013-03-24 01:38:27 ralphtheninja has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
248 2013-03-24 01:38:28 FredEE has joined
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250 2013-03-24 01:38:51 <gavinandresen> sipa: ask TD when he is on, there might have been some reason to have a value⦠(e.g. "please refund 11 of the BTC to HERE, and the other 6 HERE")
251 2013-03-24 01:39:20 <gavinandresen> sipa: common case would be one Output with no value
252 2013-03-24 01:39:29 <gavinandresen> ⦠no amount....
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257 2013-03-24 01:40:55 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: if me and alice want to pay you to throw a pie at sipa, we each may have ponyed up part of it.. and so if you fail and refund you should split it. Also, privacy practices might encourage keeping your wallet in certian sized coins. .. dunno if thats worth the complexity.
258 2013-03-24 01:41:45 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: yes, I think those were the reasons for making refund multiple Outputs. And I agree, not sure it is worth the added complexity
259 2013-03-24 01:42:19 <gmaxwell> I don't know how you handle things like partial refunds.
260 2013-03-24 01:43:06 <comboy> sorry I'm jumping in with zero information, but I got so curious about it, end user experience for this is that I buy something and then in my bitcoin client I see some popup "paying for pizza press OK"? or am I getting it completely wrong?
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263 2013-03-24 01:44:34 <gruez> quick question:
264 2013-03-24 01:44:41 <gavinandresen> comboy: You click on a "Pay now" link, your bitcoin client opens and yeah, it opens up the Send dialog with who you're paying (e.g. "merchant.com"), how much you're being asked to pay, and a message from the merchant.
265 2013-03-24 01:44:44 <gruez> if a pool is using GBT or stratum
266 2013-03-24 01:44:52 <gruez> does it mean the transactions are generated locally?
267 2013-03-24 01:45:12 <sipa> gruez: GBT allows the client to choose which transactions end up in the block
268 2013-03-24 01:45:23 <sipa> gruez: stratum, afaik, only allows control of the coinbase
269 2013-03-24 01:45:58 <gruez> sipa: how does the miner get transactions?
270 2013-03-24 01:46:02 <gruez> from the local bitcoind?
271 2013-03-24 01:46:06 <sipa> for example
272 2013-03-24 01:46:38 <comboy> gavinandresen: but these details are propagated through bitcoin network right? so the link only contains some hash to identify which payment request is for me?
273 2013-03-24 01:47:07 <gavinandresen> comboy: no, you get the payment request from a web page
274 2013-03-24 01:47:17 <sipa> comboy: why would this information need to be on the bitcoin network? it just goes directly from receiver to sender via HTTP(S)/...
275 2013-03-24 01:47:24 <gavinandresen> (or email or however, a payment request is just a file)
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278 2013-03-24 01:48:09 <comboy> ok ok, Imagined something different, thanks
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280 2013-03-24 01:50:47 <comboy> btw do you guys believe that if we go big scale merchant payments will actually be handled directly by bitcoin network and not some abstractions on top of iit (more centralized but being able to confirm payments quickly)?
281 2013-03-24 01:51:19 agricocb has joined
282 2013-03-24 01:51:35 <sipa> comboy: that's a good question :)
283 2013-03-24 01:51:54 <sipa> comboy: i'd say opinions differ, but imho, yes, at some point transactions will need to happen off-chain
284 2013-03-24 01:52:16 <sipa> there are nice solutions though that aren't necessarily fully centralized, though
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288 2013-03-24 01:53:26 <comboy> any interesting links for long afternoon? I'd love to read about these
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294 2013-03-24 01:59:52 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
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296 2013-03-24 02:02:33 <helo> "subver" : "/Gangnam Style -minimal:0.8.0/"
297 2013-03-24 02:03:10 <sipa> 5.9.24.81
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302 2013-03-24 02:03:31 <helo> ze germans
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348 2013-03-24 02:52:59 <SwedFTP> gavinandresen, That is an ideal implementation of that idea, good job.
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356 2013-03-24 03:08:08 <Luke-Jr> FYI: between blocks 227716 and 227717, bitcoind 0.6.0 was rejecting proposals generated by 0.8.1
357 2013-03-24 03:08:19 i2pRelay has joined
358 2013-03-24 03:08:39 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: any idea why?
359 2013-03-24 03:09:03 rowit has joined
360 2013-03-24 03:09:06 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: it *might* be the bug in 0.6 proposals code, but I wouldn't have expected it to affect the case of two nodes on localhost
361 2013-03-24 03:09:26 <Luke-Jr> 03/24/13 02:41:18 ERROR: FetchInputs() : d396f63b5c mapTransactions prev not found b20a46a95d
362 2013-03-24 03:09:34 Ogig has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
363 2013-03-24 03:09:45 <gmaxwell> GAH@#$@$#@ go patch your nodes to log the full w#@$@#$*@)( ( hashes
364 2013-03-24 03:11:23 <gmaxwell> d396f63b5cee28a1f836524bfc76cc5cebf32f4c5774bb87c8c4a56ae1e0f8d4
365 2013-03-24 03:12:25 <lianj> ack
366 2013-03-24 03:12:27 <gmaxwell> b20a46a95debdfb4ebe39cc48c906000b71022d3e0f9365b0a038103c995c6e8 < so it sounds like perhaps your 0.6 node has a corrupted database that lacks that txn.
367 2013-03-24 03:12:56 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: is it forked as of 227717?
368 2013-03-24 03:13:04 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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370 2013-03-24 03:13:17 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: nope
371 2013-03-24 03:13:26 <Luke-Jr> just confirmed it is an instance of the 0.6 proposal bug
372 2013-03-24 03:13:31 <Luke-Jr> sorry for the false alarm
373 2013-03-24 03:13:33 <gmaxwell> ah, b20a46a95 was also mined in that block.
374 2013-03-24 03:13:41 <gmaxwell> No, it was a good excercise.
375 2013-03-24 03:14:00 <gmaxwell> Your proposal code must be failing to check the proposal for newly created outputs.
376 2013-03-24 03:14:05 <Luke-Jr> correct
377 2013-03-24 03:14:20 hydrogenesis has joined
378 2013-03-24 03:14:31 <Luke-Jr> it's fixed in the 0.8 port, but 0.6.0 is dead soon enough that I didn't fix it there
379 2013-03-24 03:14:40 <gmaxwell> in any case, please fix all your code to log full transaction IDs. It was only easy to figure out the full ID here because the txn in question was just mined.
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383 2013-03-24 03:20:15 <user_corrupt> hello wonderful bitcoin devs
384 2013-03-24 03:20:26 rowit has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
385 2013-03-24 03:20:47 <user_corrupt> just a run of the mill web developer who is intent on participating in this historic new market that is being developed
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397 2013-03-24 03:34:19 <EvilPete> block #227720 - are deepbit's clocks drifting? looks like its creation time is 9 minutes after the network received it
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401 2013-03-24 03:38:19 <fishfish> hhi everyone, out of curiosity, if I want to store and use a wallet locally , just confirming I have no choice but to d/l the whole blockchain at least once?
402 2013-03-24 03:39:37 Diablo-D3 has joined
403 2013-03-24 03:39:46 <jaakkos> fishfish: you can use an SPV client
404 2013-03-24 03:39:54 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
405 2013-03-24 03:39:54 <jaakkos> (simple payment verification)
406 2013-03-24 03:40:00 <jaakkos> fishfish: such as the Android client
407 2013-03-24 03:40:26 i2pRelay has joined
408 2013-03-24 03:40:27 <EvilPete> fishfish: there are lighter weight clients, eg: electrum, multibit
409 2013-03-24 03:40:55 <fishfish> thanks guys, a bit of background, trying to setup a service online similar to instawallet
410 2013-03-24 03:41:02 <fishfish> so the android client wouldnt' work
411 2013-03-24 03:41:44 normanrichards has joined
412 2013-03-24 03:41:50 <kjj> ugh. if you need to make an online wallet, you pretty much need to be running the full client, and that means maintaining the full block chain locally
413 2013-03-24 03:42:03 <fishfish> thanks kjj
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415 2013-03-24 03:44:50 <user_corrupt> someone just told me that there is a limit to how many transactions per second bitcoin network can handle.... if bitcoin becomes widely accepted as a currency, can this be increased?
416 2013-03-24 03:44:59 eipeace_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
417 2013-03-24 03:45:15 <kjj> user_corrupt: a billion threads on that topic on the forums
418 2013-03-24 03:45:50 Detritus has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
419 2013-03-24 03:46:48 <gmaxwell> user_corrupt: anything can be changed with enough consensus. The harder question is what is the transaction rate it can handle before that compromises decenteralization, and how much decenteralization is enough.
420 2013-03-24 03:46:58 rowit has joined
421 2013-03-24 03:47:10 <user_corrupt> gotcha
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423 2013-03-24 03:48:06 <petertodd> user_corrupt: The key thing is transactions don't have to happen on the blockchain - you can have someone else keep the ledger for you. More importantly, there exist protocols so those leger holders don't need to be trusted to any significant degree.
424 2013-03-24 03:48:26 i2pRelay has joined
425 2013-03-24 03:48:40 <EvilPete> user_corrupt: super short version: yes it can be changed, but it is also possible to do something about the spammy transactions. the bitcoin model is people pay fees to get better processing. opinions vary widely on what the right solution is.
426 2013-03-24 03:49:04 <user_corrupt> very interesting
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428 2013-03-24 03:49:55 <user_corrupt> well, i would support some kind of bitcoin.inc with servers in the caiman islands, but then that is when the rockefellers send some goons after you I guess
429 2013-03-24 03:50:07 qwebirc94643 has joined
430 2013-03-24 03:50:54 <EvilPete> user_corrupt: I think right now the feeling that fees are not a good way to increase adoption. right now miners generally only do 250k-ish blocks and the protocol already allows for 1MB blocks. that'll buy some time but the issue has to be dealt with
431 2013-03-24 03:51:11 <gmaxwell> user_corrupt: Yea, as petertodd mentions.. transactions can be external too. Bitcoin is both a currency and a payment network. Unfortunately the goals of a trustworthy currency and scalable payment network are somewhat at odds, but you could always trade the bitcoin currency via external payment networks.
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433 2013-03-24 03:52:10 <gmaxwell> (To make the currency trustworthy its supply and history must be super highly public to the whole world, but thats kinda lame from a scaling perspective, also lame for privacy)
434 2013-03-24 03:53:24 <warren> Didn't the USD supply go secret?
435 2013-03-24 03:53:29 <user_corrupt> as a soon to be bitcoin consumer, i have much more patience and understanding for the sincere technical issues that you are all facing, as opposed to the myriad monkey business that central banks are involved with in their efforts to "regulate" the conventional money supply
436 2013-03-24 03:53:44 <kjj> warren: ?
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438 2013-03-24 03:54:23 <petertodd> user_corrupt: That's a very good attitude to take - know what you have invested in.
439 2013-03-24 03:55:08 <user_corrupt> also, I think that public confidence in these institutions will continue to fall like a rock
440 2013-03-24 03:55:52 <jgarzik> woo! new register allocator in gcc 4.8
441 2013-03-24 03:55:56 <petertodd> I have an analogy I like for what Bitcoin as a currency/store of value is: imagine if the banks of the world all had vaults made out of bullet proof glass, and anyone was allowed to wander the vaults counting the gold bars. (although with crypto, you can be sure the gold bars are solid too)
442 2013-03-24 03:55:56 <jgarzik> kjj: around
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444 2013-03-24 03:56:15 <kjj> jgarzik: do you have a node running your UDP patch?
445 2013-03-24 03:56:21 <petertodd> jgarzik: You must be a kernel developer... :P
446 2013-03-24 03:56:30 i2pRelay has joined
447 2013-03-24 03:57:05 fiesh has joined
448 2013-03-24 03:57:17 <jgarzik> kjj: not ATM
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451 2013-03-24 03:57:43 <gmaxwell> warren: fed bank loans are secret, yes. I'm not sure what the ratio of secrecy to computationally intractably obfscuated the problem is though.
452 2013-03-24 03:58:01 <kjj> I probably won't be able to compile one until Monday, but I'd be willing to test communications with you if you want to set one up. or is the code not ready for that yet?
453 2013-03-24 03:58:06 <petertodd> jgarzik: re: udp, I was also thinking it'd be good to start thinking about how we can have a "headers only" P2P network - UDP strikes me as ideal for that.
454 2013-03-24 03:58:39 <warren> I missed this, what is the purpose of a header only P2P network?
455 2013-03-24 03:59:06 <gmaxwell> warren: headers let you figure out if you're on the right chain or notâ for example.
456 2013-03-24 03:59:23 <jgarzik> petertodd: yep
457 2013-03-24 03:59:34 <petertodd> warren: SPV nodes can in many cases operate with purely the block headers. timestamping is your canonical example, but with payment protocols and UTXO proofs there are many others.
458 2013-03-24 04:02:13 sebuba has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
459 2013-03-24 04:02:21 <user_corrupt> im really excited to be in this room, you guys may really be changing the world here
460 2013-03-24 04:02:26 <gmaxwell> warren: e.g. I pay you. I tell you that you've been paid and give you the SPV fragment. But you're not just going to believe meâ I could be mining my own chain. So you need an independant way to confirm the identity of the best chain.
461 2013-03-24 04:02:37 <user_corrupt> this could be a quantum leap forward for humanity
462 2013-03-24 04:03:20 <hmmmstrange> shhh, dont tell anyone yet
463 2013-03-24 04:03:33 kalleboo is now known as kalleboo|away
464 2013-03-24 04:03:50 <user_corrupt> i was recently in dc watching history unfold with a congressman that I know, a protege of Ron Paul, I get the same feeling in here
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466 2013-03-24 04:04:01 kalleboo is now known as away!~kalleboo@i121-118-222-71.s11.a046.ap.plala.or.jp|kalleboo
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468 2013-03-24 04:04:36 <petertodd> user_corrupt: Bitcoin is just money; a real quantum leap for humanity would be if we were working on cold fusion tech in here. But anyway, this is getting off topic for -dev
469 2013-03-24 04:04:41 <Luke-Jr> [03:34:12] <jgarzik> woo! new register allocator in gcc 4.8 <-- does this mean if I upgrade GCC, stupid antivirus sw won't think BFGMiner is a virus?
470 2013-03-24 04:05:12 <jgarzik> heh
471 2013-03-24 04:05:15 <warren> user_corrupt: I kind of get the sense that the developers are most concerned with getting things technically right. The trolltalk forum is where you can find the people who care about the political stuff.
472 2013-03-24 04:05:38 <user_corrupt> heh, sorry guys, just a bit excited here
473 2013-03-24 04:06:51 <petertodd> user_corrupt: Talking about politics on IRC is a particularly effective DoS attack against developer wrist bandwidth.
474 2013-03-24 04:07:40 <user_corrupt> i apologize, I'll keep my sentimentality in check then
475 2013-03-24 04:07:46 <petertodd> user_corrupt: Thanks
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480 2013-03-24 04:13:55 <daemon> Hey all has anyone here got an Avalon, multiverse, Bflylabs or other ASIC miner
481 2013-03-24 04:14:07 <jgarzik> What is an ASIC miner?
482 2013-03-24 04:14:18 <daemon> I was led to understand that some of you devs had managed to purchase one of the avalon(s) or be gifted one when there initial batch was created
483 2013-03-24 04:14:33 <jgarzik> Who led you on like that?
484 2013-03-24 04:14:37 <daemon> jgarzik, A bitcoin miner based around an ASIC
485 2013-03-24 04:14:40 <daemon> jgarzik, SomeoneWeird
486 2013-03-24 04:14:56 <BlueMatt> jgarzik has an Avalon
487 2013-03-24 04:15:04 <BlueMatt> (sorry jgarzik)
488 2013-03-24 04:15:47 <daemon> I am just trying to prove a little something to my self; my original question to #mtgox: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=R38YLHHR
489 2013-03-24 04:16:28 <gmaxwell> daemon: avalon has shipped their initial batch to a bunch of people, â now, thats on promise that they'll deliver in the future, of course.
490 2013-03-24 04:16:34 <gmaxwell> s/on/no/
491 2013-03-24 04:17:05 * jgarzik has never heard of multiverse (outside of Snowcrash)
492 2013-03-24 04:17:12 <Luke-Jr> ^ same
493 2013-03-24 04:17:18 <daemon> gmaxwell, yes that is my suspicion; see I cannot see why anhyone who developed such a system would sell it on; it would be like selling the goose that ays the golden egg
494 2013-03-24 04:17:30 Detritus has joined
495 2013-03-24 04:17:38 <Luke-Jr> I'm pretty confident BFL isn't a scam, and there is zero evidence suggesting they are
496 2013-03-24 04:17:50 <Luke-Jr> Avalon, on the other hand.. I *hope* isn't a scam.
497 2013-03-24 04:17:57 <daemon> Luke-Jr, gmatteson__ http://www.multiversecomputers.com/Mining-Products.html
498 2013-03-24 04:18:06 <daemon> Luke-Jr, google would suggest otherwise
499 2013-03-24 04:18:19 <Luke-Jr> daemon: that website for multiverse certainly looks scammy
500 2013-03-24 04:18:24 <Luke-Jr> daemon: Google isn't God
501 2013-03-24 04:18:35 <gmaxwell> daemon: Oh lots of reasons, mining is quite risky. And your hardware compets with itself. Also if all the hashpower ends up in one parties hands it basically defeats the purpose of bitcoin, undermines trust, and makes the coins you mined worthless.
502 2013-03-24 04:19:04 <warren> "We are too backed up on US shipping, to accept any more US purchases. We should be accepting US purchases in 24 to 48hrs. International Orders are not affected at this time. Terminals for US Orders are closed during this time." Sounds legit.
503 2013-03-24 04:19:14 <daemon> gmaxwell, my worry was that if all is well in ASIC land and everyone is telling the truth there will be far to much supply vs demand
504 2013-03-24 04:19:32 <jgarzik> daemon: supply is highly constrained at the moment
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506 2013-03-24 04:19:54 <gmaxwell> You cannot just purchase an asic device, you can get in a long preorder line right now with uncertian delivery dates.
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508 2013-03-24 04:20:15 <petertodd> daemon: That said, because of the hashpower ending up in one hand issue, frankly if you can take the financial risk I'd encourage you to buy mining equipment. Just don't invest more than you can afford to lose, and remember the risk is pretty high that you will lose it.
509 2013-03-24 04:20:23 berni23 has joined
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511 2013-03-24 04:20:41 <daemon> gmaxwell, I have a few friends who know alot more than me when it comes to electronics and at least FPGA development, my backup plan if the date was to long was to pay them 2000 dollars to develop my own
512 2013-03-24 04:20:46 <daemon> oops petertodd ^ erven
513 2013-03-24 04:20:49 <petertodd> daemon: FWIW I've put the funds I can afford to lose to mining in BFL equipment
514 2013-03-24 04:20:52 metabyte has joined
515 2013-03-24 04:21:05 <warren> daemon: Even if you do receive mining hardware after months of waiting, there's no guarantee that you'll make your money back if too many people mine.
516 2013-03-24 04:21:09 <petertodd> daemon: If any ASIC isn't a scam, FPGA's won't be very viable.
517 2013-03-24 04:21:13 <Luke-Jr> daemon: you can't develop your own ASIC for $2000 or anything close to it
518 2013-03-24 04:21:39 <daemon> Luke-Jr, you can develop a basic FPGA for very little
519 2013-03-24 04:21:40 <jgarzik> hashweb.org
520 2013-03-24 04:21:41 <jgarzik> eh?
521 2013-03-24 04:21:46 * daemon blinks
522 2013-03-24 04:21:52 <daemon> oh im through my znc
523 2013-03-24 04:21:53 <daemon> #web
524 2013-03-24 04:22:32 OneFixt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
525 2013-03-24 04:22:46 bernard75 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
526 2013-03-24 04:23:13 <gmaxwell> daemon: sure, and there are lots of people mining on FPGAs right nowâ though $2000 doesn't buy you very much in fpgas.
527 2013-03-24 04:23:22 <daemon> warren, let me pose you an interesting dillema, I have for the next 3 years free power, quite literally the BAR is 300A, 3 100A lines. some is userd for other purposes so probably 3*80. I could purchase from india basic mobos and psus capable of running a single PCIe lane and gpus with a high mash/s vs there price the best combination comes to a hardware break even of 119 days
528 2013-03-24 04:23:36 <daemon> I want to exploit the fact I have free power as fast as humanly possible
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530 2013-03-24 04:23:40 <daemon> I have 5000 GBP to invest
531 2013-03-24 04:23:44 OneFixt has joined
532 2013-03-24 04:23:53 <petertodd> daemon: Mining w/ ASICs is capital intensive, not power intensive.
533 2013-03-24 04:24:03 FredEE has joined
534 2013-03-24 04:24:08 <petertodd> daemon: This will be true for at least another year or two.
535 2013-03-24 04:24:18 <gwillen> petertodd: do you really think it will last a year
536 2013-03-24 04:24:21 <warren> "free" has a cost to someone.
537 2013-03-24 04:24:25 <daemon> petertodd, I did a very long detailed spreadsheet for x86+gpu+shipping etc.... ASIC is my next stop
538 2013-03-24 04:24:39 <gwillen> petertodd: I am expecting that power costs will reach a double-digit percentage of revenue within 6 months after BFL starts shipping
539 2013-03-24 04:24:43 <gwillen> probably sooner
540 2013-03-24 04:24:57 <daemon> warren, I am a hotel manager by trade, the chain of hotels I work for has an odd deal with a contract with the power supplier basically they pay a flat rate to them for around 300 hotels
541 2013-03-24 04:25:00 <gwillen> that's very handwavy but a year would surprise me
542 2013-03-24 04:25:02 <daemon> I have a 3 year contract at this post
543 2013-03-24 04:25:03 <warren> gwillen: 6 months? I expect 1-2 months
544 2013-03-24 04:25:09 <petertodd> gwillen: Given how crazy limited the supply is, yes, besides, double-digit percentage is still mostly capital intensive.
545 2013-03-24 04:25:11 <gwillen> warren: *nods*
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549 2013-03-24 04:25:48 <petertodd> gwillen: I will say though, you're totally right and I could be totally wrong.
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551 2013-03-24 04:25:57 <daemon> petertodd, would you say a traditional GPU based setup with a 122 day break-even on hardware is more sane, given that if it all goes wrong and ASICS fail I can still sell the systems as systems in there own right
552 2013-03-24 04:25:58 <gwillen> petertodd: I am handwaving wildly
553 2013-03-24 04:26:07 <daemon> petertodd, or should I join the line for ASICS,
554 2013-03-24 04:26:11 <gwillen> petertodd: and I deliberately hedged with "double-digit percentage"
555 2013-03-24 04:26:12 metabyte has quit ()
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557 2013-03-24 04:26:29 <petertodd> gwillen: We all are. :P Though remember the next step is to do 30nm and 20nm bitcoin ASICs, which again is a huge pile of capital.
558 2013-03-24 04:26:32 * gwillen nods
559 2013-03-24 04:26:47 <gwillen> petertodd: you don't need smaller process to totally wipe out the profit margin though
560 2013-03-24 04:26:51 <gwillen> petertodd: you just need a lot of units shipped
561 2013-03-24 04:26:53 <petertodd> daemon: Selling used GPU's while everyone else is selling used GPU's sounds crazy to me.
562 2013-03-24 04:26:57 <jgarzik> gwillen: bingo
563 2013-03-24 04:26:57 <Luke-Jr> daemon: I'd be surprised if you could obtain an ASIC befoe June
564 2013-03-24 04:27:13 FredEE has quit (Client Quit)
565 2013-03-24 04:27:15 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: He could always buy a preorder on eBay for $20,000
566 2013-03-24 04:27:22 <warren> pete79: I'm surprised how much used GPU prices have been holding up.
567 2013-03-24 04:27:26 <warren> oops
568 2013-03-24 04:27:29 <warren> petertodd: ^^
569 2013-03-24 04:27:44 <gwillen> jgarzik: that sounds ... contraindicated.
570 2013-03-24 04:27:44 <daemon> Luke-Jr, my priamry concern with ASIC's is there existance in whole; I keep finding links to proof of them with broken youtube links, and except for jgarzik I do not know a single poerson in the virtual world or real world who has ever seen one
571 2013-03-24 04:27:53 <petertodd> warren: heh, yeah me too, although then again I have a co-worker who wants to buy a few thousand worth of GPU's so...
572 2013-03-24 04:28:06 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
573 2013-03-24 04:28:08 <warren> petertodd: why!?
574 2013-03-24 04:28:17 Xeno-Genesis has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
575 2013-03-24 04:28:18 coinners has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
576 2013-03-24 04:28:26 <daemon> petertodd, GPU's as long as there not overclocked (like cpu's) still can perform quite reliably
577 2013-03-24 04:28:27 <petertodd> warren: He's got some crypto stuff he wants to work on and needs the computer power.
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579 2013-03-24 04:28:47 <Luke-Jr> daemon: I saw one in person, but it wasn't running.
580 2013-03-24 04:28:52 <Luke-Jr> last week
581 2013-03-24 04:29:11 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Oh yeah, your BFL trip. So they never had a working one for you to try?
582 2013-03-24 04:29:19 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: nope
583 2013-03-24 04:29:26 <MKCoin> Let's just hope ASICs don't break sha-256 too quickly :)
584 2013-03-24 04:29:28 <daemon> Luke-Jr, once again .. not a running version; from my research it seems to point to the fact that ASIC development is highly volatile it can cost millions in investment to get them right
585 2013-03-24 04:29:32 <MKCoin> or .. hope?
586 2013-03-24 04:29:52 <daemon> Luke-Jr, my concern is that if they are real; they will flood the market and BTC price will fall out of the sky
587 2013-03-24 04:29:57 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Sucks. I noticed Josh's last update was March 15th
588 2013-03-24 04:30:02 <MKCoin> Depends on how fast they would obsolete themselves
589 2013-03-24 04:30:07 <gwillen> daemon: there's no reason for BTC price to drop with ASICs
590 2013-03-24 04:30:09 <daemon> Luke-Jr, or the other concern is that they are all a big scam or there was very few made for a extremely large price and no more will be
591 2013-03-24 04:30:12 <gwillen> daemon: increasing hashrate does not increase supply
592 2013-03-24 04:30:20 <gwillen> daemon: supply is a constant 25BTC / 10 minutes
593 2013-03-24 04:30:21 <warren> daemon: how much have you studied how bitcoin works? Asics have nothing to do with more supply.
594 2013-03-24 04:30:41 <petertodd> daemon: The economics of ASIC production mean making just a few is crazy. That however is orthogonal to selling them to others...
595 2013-03-24 04:30:42 <lianj> gwillen: totally right
596 2013-03-24 04:30:46 <gmaxwell> daemon: as mentioned, avalon has shipped their first batch. They're not currently a scam.
597 2013-03-24 04:31:26 <Luke-Jr> daemon: there's no reason to think Bitcoin price would fall much
598 2013-03-24 04:31:30 <warren> daemon: most people here are worried that too many ASIC's will be quickly sold, driving average revenue down quickly.
599 2013-03-24 04:31:32 <daemon> gwillen, warren I believed I had studied everything I seem to have skipped the rate limitation; but that does mean that as each block is released the asic users are more likely to crypt them right?
600 2013-03-24 04:31:43 <gwillen> daemon: correct
601 2013-03-24 04:31:47 <Luke-Jr> daemon: you *can't* make "very few" ASICs :p
602 2013-03-24 04:31:58 <gwillen> daemon: that comes at the expense of other miners
603 2013-03-24 04:32:00 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Granted, it is possible that Avalon is having problems getting their second batch of ASIC's made - they're a lots of low-cost silicon design after all.
604 2013-03-24 04:32:02 <daemon> I see
605 2013-03-24 04:32:02 <gwillen> daemon: but the supply will not rise
606 2013-03-24 04:32:14 <daemon> that makes a little more sence; how did I miss that -_-"
607 2013-03-24 04:32:17 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: my concern with Avalon is that they seem to be paying for batch 1 with batch 2 preorders etc
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609 2013-03-24 04:32:24 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: seems like it.
610 2013-03-24 04:32:25 ralphtheninja has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
611 2013-03-24 04:32:35 <lianj> haha
612 2013-03-24 04:32:40 <warren> I haven't seen where this "88 BTC" cost of batch #3 is coming from, but that'd make sense if they want to pay for batch #2...
613 2013-03-24 04:32:43 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: but it's not clear how much of 1 was paid with 2's preorders. Clearly not the whole amount.
614 2013-03-24 04:33:00 <petertodd> Does anyone know what actual fab Avalon contracted with?
615 2013-03-24 04:33:04 <gmaxwell> and they increased #2s price.
616 2013-03-24 04:33:06 <gmaxwell> petertodd: TSMC.
617 2013-03-24 04:33:18 <gmaxwell> petertodd: they posted their contracts with the prices blacked out.
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619 2013-03-24 04:33:31 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: sure, just makes it fishy IMO
620 2013-03-24 04:33:31 <gmaxwell> well, mostly blacked out. :)
621 2013-03-24 04:33:41 <daemon> out of curiosity can anyone validate that this was real at one point: http://fpgamining.com/
622 2013-03-24 04:33:49 <Luke-Jr> daemon: yes
623 2013-03-24 04:33:55 <Luke-Jr> daemon: I have their X6500 product
624 2013-03-24 04:34:06 <Luke-Jr> and we all know TheSeven
625 2013-03-24 04:34:07 <daemon> Luke-Jr, how does it perform at present
626 2013-03-24 04:34:32 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I suspect what they did is under compute their costs, and run short when it came to assembly/passives/etc. I noticed the assembly of my units was not terribly uniform, and that there was a parts change.
627 2013-03-24 04:34:56 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Hand assembled?
628 2013-03-24 04:35:08 <Luke-Jr> daemon: yep, hashing away
629 2013-03-24 04:35:14 <Luke-Jr> XBS 0: 43.0C/44.9C | 382.0/389.5/381.0Mh/s | A:19257 R: 77 HW: 221 U: 5.32/m
630 2013-03-24 04:35:24 <daemon> pretty nice
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632 2013-03-24 04:36:06 <gmaxwell> petertodd: the pcbs are clearly done in a nice oven... must have taken them a while to work out the profiles on these things. But the mechnicals are all hand assembled, though it seems they did a reasonable job designing to simplify that.
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635 2013-03-24 04:36:53 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Ah. I noticed the picture on their website almost looks like the IC's were hand-soldered.
636 2013-03-24 04:37:03 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Heh, I wonder if it's RoHS compliant...
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643 2013-03-24 04:45:45 <daemon> petertodd, gmaxwell, gwillen: Would you at the present point buy a GPU based miner (hardware break even at current rate: 100 days) given that if ASIC's take over and make them pointless you can re sell them on ebay as reasonable systems and given that you have free power, ... would you?
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645 2013-03-24 04:46:13 <daemon> the buy in per system would be .. =SUM(G11:K11) dollars
646 2013-03-24 04:46:14 <daemon> err
647 2013-03-24 04:46:17 <petertodd> daemon: Heck no. My time is worth too much to dick around with selling on ebay.
648 2013-03-24 04:46:19 <daemon> 510 dollars
649 2013-03-24 04:46:31 <gwillen> yeah, == petertodd
650 2013-03-24 04:46:45 <daemon> so the systems are worthless to buy and I would have to immediatly sell them on ebay
651 2013-03-24 04:47:04 ForceMajeure has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
652 2013-03-24 04:47:23 <petertodd> Speaking of, I should stop wasting time on IRC. :P
653 2013-03-24 04:47:23 <petertodd> later
654 2013-03-24 04:47:29 <daemon> later petertodd
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698 2013-03-24 05:29:22 <EvilPete> 91.6% version 2
699 2013-03-24 05:29:47 <jgarzik> maybe under 24 hours
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705 2013-03-24 05:33:10 <gmaxwell> The right question is probably "how many consecutive v2 blocks do we need now to trigger it".. and "what are the chances that 95% of the hashpower gets N in a row"
706 2013-03-24 05:34:10 <Luke-Jr> I reserve the right to be in a grumpy mood if v2 blocks somehow hardforks
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718 2013-03-24 05:41:00 <MC1984> some sortof countdown going on in here?
719 2013-03-24 05:41:25 <Graet> yes, some sort ;)
720 2013-03-24 05:41:39 <Graet> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=154521.0
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724 2013-03-24 05:47:53 <MC1984> oh thats exciting
725 2013-03-24 05:48:20 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
726 2013-03-24 05:48:23 <MC1984> i hope it doesnt blow up in our faces somehow when the threshold is reached
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728 2013-03-24 05:49:17 <MC1984> lol deepbit is heading to be orphaned
729 2013-03-24 05:49:21 <digitalmagus> Question: So with the ASIC mining rigs coming online now and over the next year or so, those people are going to make lots of $$, and good for them; however, further down the timeline, as the number of bitcoin rewards deminish, there comes a point where even running an ASIC mining rig, or racks and racks of these becomes unprofitable and they quit. Given ASIC is the end of the technology
730 2013-03-24 05:49:22 <digitalmagus> improvements possible (as far as I know), and given P2P transactions rely on miners to process the transactions, if there are no miners, how will transactions occur??
731 2013-03-24 05:49:26 <Luke-Jr> no, Deepbit is v2
732 2013-03-24 05:49:41 <MC1984> hang on ie got a teeny tiny violin around here somewhere...
733 2013-03-24 05:51:13 <CodeShark> digitalmagus: "there comes a point where even running an ASIC mining rig, or racks and racks of these becomes unprofitable and they quit." - if they all quit then guess what? suddenly mining is super profitable again because the difficulty drops!
734 2013-03-24 05:51:31 <digitalmagus> ahhh ok got it. that makes sense. thanks :)
735 2013-03-24 05:51:41 <MC1984> i think mining is desined to eentually be baely profitable
736 2013-03-24 05:51:56 <MC1984> which means mining is free not counting the cost of hardware
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740 2013-03-24 05:52:10 <warren> digitalmagus: if you have tons of hardware that is useless for anything but mining, lots of people will mine at break-even cost (or even less)
741 2013-03-24 05:52:39 <EvilPete> mining is exactly that.. steady state is just profitable enough to keep the dedicated working. there is a huge advantage to be had if you can get ahead of the curve though, eg: an early ASIC online
742 2013-03-24 05:52:56 <digitalmagus> warren... or less, I doubt it. I think this is all leading to a handful of data centers jam packed with huge ASIC mining rigs that only a few millionaires can afford.
743 2013-03-24 05:53:16 <MC1984> i thought that but ie been told its not as likely as it seems
744 2013-03-24 05:53:32 <digitalmagus> MC1984: how so?
745 2013-03-24 05:53:36 <MC1984> not entirely convinced though
746 2013-03-24 05:54:05 <MC1984> datacentre efficiency gains dont apply to bitcoin as mining as much as other computing i think
747 2013-03-24 05:54:11 <MC1984> i cant remember how though
748 2013-03-24 05:54:50 <EvilPete> Its far more cost effective to park a few asic miners in your office at work, assuming they're quiet enough.
749 2013-03-24 05:54:55 ccook has joined
750 2013-03-24 05:54:58 <MC1984> even so, if eficiancy gains wont do it, the fincen thing will
751 2013-03-24 05:54:58 <digitalmagus> I only say data center because most people don't have enough dedicated power outlets to run 1,000 x 1500 watt boxes
752 2013-03-24 05:55:46 <MC1984> i seriously want a miner providing resistive heating in every house in the land/world
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754 2013-03-24 05:56:28 <digitalmagus> EvilPete: Yeah but the thing is... your $1200 ASIC box at 60Gh/h will get 1x 25 block every 10 years if you are competing against rich guys that have a data center filled with asic rigs doing 500 TeraHash/s ... EACH
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756 2013-03-24 05:57:19 <MC1984> like, if/when asic bicoin chips are pennies, mining heates should turn you a nice profit considering mining profit cancels out expenditure at best, and then you dont hae to pay to heat your house otherwise
757 2013-03-24 05:57:25 <MC1984> = free electric heating maybe
758 2013-03-24 05:57:46 <MC1984> gas companies gonna be butthurt
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760 2013-03-24 05:57:56 <SomeoneWeird> yehlol
761 2013-03-24 05:57:59 <EvilPete> digitalmagus: yeah, but so will the millionaires' machines. there's no way they're going to overspend on that.
762 2013-03-24 05:58:18 <EvilPete> digitalmagus: the same thing happened on the cpu->gpu transition. the world didn't end.
763 2013-03-24 05:58:21 kfhere has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
764 2013-03-24 05:58:31 <EvilPete> and the early adopters made a killing.
765 2013-03-24 05:58:35 <digitalmagus> No the world didn't end because everybody has a video card in their PC
766 2013-03-24 05:58:49 <Graet> not really
767 2013-03-24 05:58:59 <user_corrupt> if bitcoin ends up getting used much more people as a regular currency, could it be possible to increase the speed of transactions but also keep it decentralized so that there is no single server that any government can audit to keep track of who is buying what?
768 2013-03-24 05:59:00 <Graet> and lots had underperforming nvidia
769 2013-03-24 05:59:07 <MC1984> what really scares me is the stories about asic miner
770 2013-03-24 05:59:16 <jgarzik> user_corrupt: sure. Use off-chain transactions.
771 2013-03-24 05:59:24 <MC1984> i didnt consider miners outsourcing the actual equipment and labour
772 2013-03-24 05:59:31 <MC1984> to a single coercible firm
773 2013-03-24 05:59:32 <MC1984> jesus fuck
774 2013-03-24 05:59:34 <EvilPete> I'm not sure nvidia gpus really count as a miner.. their microarchitecture really isn't suited
775 2013-03-24 05:59:54 <warren> MC1984: they will be the minority soon enough
776 2013-03-24 05:59:56 <user_corrupt> jgarzik: cool, thanks
777 2013-03-24 06:00:03 <MC1984> ?
778 2013-03-24 06:00:04 <digitalmagus> The world isn't going to end in the next 2 years because some can still afford $1500 ASIC mining rig that will be profitable... but after say 5 years, you need a $50,000 ASIC rig to be profitable... and now we're talking about a couple dozen thousand people... then 2 or 3 years later you need $500,000 mining rigs... at which point, as I was saying, all mining will be done only by very rich
779 2013-03-24 06:00:05 <digitalmagus> people... which may dwindle down to a few dozen or few hundred people.
780 2013-03-24 06:00:15 <MC1984> i read earlier asicminer has 50th ready to go
781 2013-03-24 06:00:24 <MC1984> from purchased shares
782 2013-03-24 06:00:45 <warren> digitalmagus: you're assuming the "$1500 ASIC mining rig that will be profitable" is true.
783 2013-03-24 06:01:11 <EvilPete> digitalmagus: people won't spend $500,000 on a mining rig unless it can pay for itself in an acceptable timeframe.
784 2013-03-24 06:01:39 <EvilPete> and the longer it takes, the bigger the risk it'll be a loss. mining is far from a "sure thing"
785 2013-03-24 06:01:59 <warren> digitalmagus: if people pre-order too many, average revenue per ASIC will go down significantly. Then future ASIC's will be cheaper, further driving down revenue per ASIC.
786 2013-03-24 06:02:00 <MC1984> LOL ask bfl investors
787 2013-03-24 06:02:03 <MC1984> imean customers
788 2013-03-24 06:02:41 <digitalmagus> EvilPete... Oh but they will... it's an escalating thing... those who can have the most Thashes/sec first, will be able to recoup their money faster, thus it is inevitable that many years down the road, we'll see gigantic ASIC mining rigs.. look BFL vapourwear already claims 1.5 Thashes/sec for $30,000 ... you don't think they are going to make a $60,000 box next?
789 2013-03-24 06:03:17 ripshy has joined
790 2013-03-24 06:03:35 <CodeShark> digitalmagus: are you saying that for every doubling in price of an ASIC miner, the hashrate more than doubles?
791 2013-03-24 06:04:17 <digitalmagus> CodeShark, let me do some quick math
792 2013-03-24 06:04:22 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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794 2013-03-24 06:04:55 <MC1984> Graet what pool do you op?
795 2013-03-24 06:05:16 FredEE has joined
796 2013-03-24 06:05:16 <CodeShark> or actually, the correct metric is hashrate per unit of power consumption
797 2013-03-24 06:05:27 <Graet> Ozcoin MC1984
798 2013-03-24 06:06:20 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
799 2013-03-24 06:06:34 <CodeShark> seems hard to believe - since price correlates with size of chip
800 2013-03-24 06:06:46 <CodeShark> many small chips are easier to manufacture than a few large ones
801 2013-03-24 06:06:46 <MC1984> ar you giving up running a pool or am i reading that thread wrong
802 2013-03-24 06:07:09 <Graet> i guess you are reading a thread wrong
803 2013-03-24 06:07:37 <user_corrupt> what would happen if someone creates quantum computing? (naive question from non computer scientist)
804 2013-03-24 06:07:49 <CodeShark> large chips are much more likely to run into defects in the wafers
805 2013-03-24 06:07:55 <MC1984> yeah
806 2013-03-24 06:08:12 <warren> user_corrupt: Google "lamport signature"
807 2013-03-24 06:08:30 <Graet> so many threads ...
808 2013-03-24 06:08:31 <MC1984> "ozcoin is disabling getwork entirely."
809 2013-03-24 06:08:35 <MC1984> confused me
810 2013-03-24 06:08:51 <MC1984> probably because i dont understand what getwork is properly, or its being replaced
811 2013-03-24 06:08:59 <Graet> ok, because we mainly use stratum now'
812 2013-03-24 06:09:20 <Graet> the way the miner talks to the pool
813 2013-03-24 06:09:30 Saberu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
814 2013-03-24 06:09:45 <MC1984> i thouht stratum was just for electrum servers and stuff
815 2013-03-24 06:09:46 <Graet> our old setup couldnt handle v2 blocks without erxtensive work
816 2013-03-24 06:10:09 <Graet> not just
817 2013-03-24 06:10:22 <digitalmagus> CodeShark: Well in theory even if the size of the chips cost the same, economics would suggest that scales of economies are reached. The more chips get produced the cheaper they become. Also if you analize BFL's pricing structure, you'll realize that the Jalapeno 4.5Gh/s costs $33.11 per GH, where as their top of the line SC $30,000 box costs $19.93 per Gh/s.... and they are both using
818 2013-03-24 06:10:22 <digitalmagus> the exact same chip. So while BFL gets lower margin profits on the high end boxes, they get many more total dollars in revenue. But yeah, eventually they will go to smaller nanometer dies, and pack even more chips etc.
819 2013-03-24 06:10:38 <Graet> btcguild, slushpool ozcoin and others use it for mining
820 2013-03-24 06:10:43 <EvilPete> digitalmagus: the bottom line is that the price that makes sense to spend on hardware varies with the value of the BTC it generates. If BTC goes through the roof then 25BTC/block suddenly is worth a lot more.
821 2013-03-24 06:11:31 <digitalmagus> EvilPete: Yes that's true, but awards are given to whomever solves the hash first... and only the rich with huge rigs will have the highest probability BY FAR.
822 2013-03-24 06:11:35 <doublec> MC1984: http://mining.bitcoin.cz/stratum-mining describes it
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824 2013-03-24 06:12:17 <CodeShark> digitalmagus: that's why pools exist :)
825 2013-03-24 06:12:25 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
826 2013-03-24 06:12:31 <EvilPete> pools exist to even out bad luck
827 2013-03-24 06:12:42 john____ has joined
828 2013-03-24 06:12:55 <digitalmagus> EvilPete: That's a good point actually.
829 2013-03-24 06:12:57 i2pRelay has joined
830 2013-03-24 06:13:58 <digitalmagus> So let's just all hope some millionaire rich kid who got in early doesn't buy a quantum computer that can solve at 5 TRILLION terahashes/sec and control 99.99% of the hashing network including all pools. :P
831 2013-03-24 06:14:23 <EvilPete> digitalmagus: its not a race to "solve" a hash, you have to find one. If somebody has 100x the hash power of me, then they'll statistically find 100x more blocks than me. But they won't drive me to zero.
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834 2013-03-24 06:14:53 <EvilPete> digitalmagus: if he can do 99.99% he's killed bitcoin outright.
835 2013-03-24 06:15:27 <CodeShark> if someone had a quantum computer capable of something like that, its effects on bitcoin would be the least of my concerns :p
836 2013-03-24 06:15:34 Saberu has joined
837 2013-03-24 06:15:48 <digitalmagus> EvilPete: They won't bring your probability to zero, but they will bring your probability of winning a bitcoin reward to once in 50 years, at which point you make no profit with your small rig.
838 2013-03-24 06:16:05 <EvilPete> this is getting way off topic though. I'm going to back out of this. I am confident that market forces will resolve this satisfactorily.
839 2013-03-24 06:16:28 <digitalmagus> EvilPete: thanks for the discussion :)
840 2013-03-24 06:16:34 <CodeShark> digitalmagus: again, *pools*
841 2013-03-24 06:16:53 <digitalmagus> ah right pools.. ok gotta remember that :)
842 2013-03-24 06:17:11 <MC1984> the great chain
843 2013-03-24 06:17:17 <MC1984> wait i mean the invisible hand
844 2013-03-24 06:17:25 <CodeShark> pools mean you get a steady payout that is pretty close to proportional to your hashrate
845 2013-03-24 06:18:13 <CodeShark> someone with 10x the hashing power will get 10x as much as you...but you'll get paid your share immediately
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849 2013-03-24 06:18:44 <digitalmagus> right. Thanks CodeShark
850 2013-03-24 06:19:37 Saberu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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854 2013-03-24 06:20:37 <MC1984> god dammit p2pool is 12th
855 2013-03-24 06:20:58 i2pRelay has joined
856 2013-03-24 06:21:15 <MC1984> and btc guild is rediculously strong
857 2013-03-24 06:22:20 enquirer2 has joined
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877 2013-03-24 06:41:43 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
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882 2013-03-24 06:46:14 <midnightmagic> p2pool is only 350GH right now.
883 2013-03-24 06:46:32 debiantoruser has joined
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891 2013-03-24 06:54:08 <MC1984> graph shows users going up but rate going way down
892 2013-03-24 06:54:10 <MC1984> s
893 2013-03-24 06:54:13 <MC1984> strange
894 2013-03-24 06:55:57 kalleboo_ has joined
895 2013-03-24 06:56:42 LorenzoMoney has joined
896 2013-03-24 06:56:56 <OneMiner> People jumping into the game mining with whatever while miners that can math get out with their GPUs.
897 2013-03-24 06:58:19 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
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902 2013-03-24 07:05:49 <muhoo> gpus? i thought it was all asics these days?
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915 2013-03-24 07:15:36 <EvilPete> fyi: block 227930 (roughly 192 from now, roughly 32 hours if 10 minute average) is the magic number. +/- a couple to allow for extra v1's to get in
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922 2013-03-24 07:17:17 <vazakl> bitcoin rules
923 2013-03-24 07:17:19 <EvilPete> so probably 227940 to allow those solo or unknown groups to spit out a few more non version=2's
924 2013-03-24 07:18:22 MobiusL has joined
925 2013-03-24 07:18:36 <EvilPete> 95% supermajority should have happened in time for breakfast in the US, monday morning.
926 2013-03-24 07:23:33 aba_ has joined
927 2013-03-24 07:24:09 <aba_> how to create a bitcoin wallet service ?
928 2013-03-24 07:24:22 <aba_> does bitcoin.org provide any api?
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930 2013-03-24 07:24:59 <aba_> anybody?
931 2013-03-24 07:25:15 i2pRelay has joined
932 2013-03-24 07:25:27 <aba_> anybody?
933 2013-03-24 07:25:37 rowit has joined
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935 2013-03-24 07:26:38 <aba_> anybody?
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937 2013-03-24 07:27:29 <Scrat> aba_: if you're asking how to create a wallet service you probably shouldn't do it
938 2013-03-24 07:27:44 <Scrat> and no, bitcoin.org does not provide an api. why would it?
939 2013-03-24 07:28:23 <Scrat> a centralized api goes against the principles of bitcoin
940 2013-03-24 07:29:15 <EvilPete> 12:05 ## Left #bitcoin-: aba_ (75cb7a68@gateway/web/freenode/ip.117.203.122.104)
941 2013-03-24 07:29:27 Saberu has joined
942 2013-03-24 07:29:32 <EvilPete> gotta love those driveby types
943 2013-03-24 07:29:36 * Scrat turns on join/parts
944 2013-03-24 07:29:41 <Scrat> thanks EvilPete :p
945 2013-03-24 07:29:54 <peawormsworth> Scrat: you can send questions like aba_ over to the #bitcoin-tech channel.
946 2013-03-24 07:30:12 <peawormsworth> although... i dont think he will find his answers in chat
947 2013-03-24 07:30:12 <EvilPete> should proably have pointed him to coinbase.. his impatience would go well there :)
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971 2013-03-24 07:55:40 <afadfsfs> how to create a bitcoin service?
972 2013-03-24 07:56:17 <afadfsfs> like a wallet service? is it required to downnload the blockchain on to my server?
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977 2013-03-24 07:58:55 <afadfsfs> anybody?
978 2013-03-24 08:00:39 moleccc has joined
979 2013-03-24 08:01:08 <weex> afadfsfs: pretty much
980 2013-03-24 08:01:24 Boydy has quit (Quit: Erection reset by beer.)
981 2013-03-24 08:02:03 <afadfsfs> thanks :) isn't there any api which can be used to build upon a service like that of a wallet?
982 2013-03-24 08:02:34 molecular has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
983 2013-03-24 08:02:43 <weex> bitcoind has a json-rpc api
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987 2013-03-24 08:10:05 <afadfsfs> weex: thanks a lot!
988 2013-03-24 08:10:09 Saberu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
989 2013-03-24 08:10:43 <weex> anytime
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998 2013-03-24 08:21:50 <EvilPete> 178 blocks till v2 supermajority
999 2013-03-24 08:23:36 Saberu has joined
1000 2013-03-24 08:26:51 Appendage has joined
1001 2013-03-24 08:26:54 <Appendage> hello
1002 2013-03-24 08:27:02 <Appendage> how do I remove encryption from my Bitcoin-Qt wallet?
1003 2013-03-24 08:27:10 <Appendage> (I am on OS X)
1004 2013-03-24 08:27:34 <gmaxwell> Appendage: you cannot, you can however set the password to a trivial string (like a space or empty)
1005 2013-03-24 08:27:40 <Appendage> oh dear
1006 2013-03-24 08:27:42 <Appendage> wel ok, thanks
1007 2013-03-24 08:27:47 Ant0 has joined
1008 2013-03-24 08:27:57 <EvilPete> How about export ?
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1012 2013-03-24 08:29:06 <EvilPete> actually, I can't count. 163 blocks till v2 supermajority
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1021 2013-03-24 08:38:11 <CodeShark> 921 out of the last 1000?
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1023 2013-03-24 08:40:53 <EvilPete> yeah, cointing back puts the 50th v1 at 226930, so supermajority happens at 227930 if there's no more v1's
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1025 2013-03-24 08:41:47 <EvilPete> there's still a slow trickle of v1's coming in from a few places so there might be a few more
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1038 2013-03-24 08:59:44 <dhrbebre> http://i.imgur.com/PfS2BZU.png âÂÂâÂÂâÂÂïÅÂïÅÂãÂÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂãÂÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂ1ïÅÂïÅÂãÂÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂãÂÂïÅÂïÅÂ
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ïÅ ïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅ 109.99 ïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅ 209.99ïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅ ïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅ 599.99ïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅ ïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅÂïÅ
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1043 2013-03-24 09:01:05 <SomeoneWeird> oh wow they're getting smarter
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1047 2013-03-24 09:02:47 <hserhreshr> http://redd.it/1awmxb buy 50btc free20btconly$1199
1048 2013-03-24 09:02:48 <hserhreshr> http://redd.it/1awmxb buy 50btc free20btconly$1199
1049 2013-03-24 09:02:48 <hserhreshr> http://redd.it/1awmxb buy 50btc free20btconly$1199
1050 2013-03-24 09:02:49 <hserhreshr> http://redd.it/1awmxb buy 50btc free20btconly$1199
1051 2013-03-24 09:02:50 <hserhreshr> http://redd.it/1awmxb buy 50btc free20btconly$1199
1052 2013-03-24 09:02:51 <hserhreshr> http://redd.it/1awmxb buy 50btc free20btconly$1199
1053 2013-03-24 09:02:54 <hserhreshr> http://redd.it/1awmxb buy 50btc free20btconly$1199
1054 2013-03-24 09:02:56 <hserhreshr> http://redd.it/1awmxb buy 50btc free20btconly$1199
1055 2013-03-24 09:02:57 <hserhreshr> http://redd.it/1awmxb buy 50btc free20btconly$1199
1056 2013-03-24 09:02:57 <hserhreshr> http://redd.it/1awmxb buy 50btc free20btconly$1199
1057 2013-03-24 09:03:49 <SomeoneWeird> goawai
1058 2013-03-24 09:03:51 kapiteined has joined
1059 2013-03-24 09:04:10 <Scrat> SomeoneWeird: y u hatin on freebitcoins.exe?
1060 2013-03-24 09:04:27 <warren> hmm, Bitcon Wallet for Android seems really buggy
1061 2013-03-24 09:06:19 grau has joined
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1083 2013-03-24 09:29:21 <kapiteined> hi, what mechanism prevents the generation of the same pub/priv keypair in different clients ?
1084 2013-03-24 09:29:57 <Scrat> kapiteined: statistics
1085 2013-03-24 09:30:05 digitalmagus has joined
1086 2013-03-24 09:30:22 <Scrat> 2^256 is a massive number
1087 2013-03-24 09:30:27 <kapiteined> right, the change of that happening is just to remote, right?
1088 2013-03-24 09:30:32 <sipa> actually, only 2^160 matters
1089 2013-03-24 09:30:41 <Scrat> or well 2^128, birthday paradox
1090 2013-03-24 09:30:43 <sipa> but that is still a ridiculously large number
1091 2013-03-24 09:30:49 <sipa> Scrat: collisions are of no interest
1092 2013-03-24 09:30:55 <sipa> you need a preimage
1093 2013-03-24 09:30:59 madmac2501 has joined
1094 2013-03-24 09:31:10 <Scrat> sipa: was talking more of an accidental privkey collision
1095 2013-03-24 09:32:02 <madmac2501> i am looking to implement a new sha256 on cpu, but i don't fully understand the data structures
1096 2013-03-24 09:32:09 <madmac2501> where can i get some documentation?
1097 2013-03-24 09:32:20 <sipa> madmac2501: perhaps you should try implementing it in software first :)
1098 2013-03-24 09:33:12 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1099 2013-03-24 09:33:13 <madmac2501> sipa, yes, it will be in software
1100 2013-03-24 09:33:21 Xeno-Genesis has joined
1101 2013-03-24 09:33:38 <madmac2501> i mean using a cpu, but in software
1102 2013-03-24 09:33:51 i2pRelay has joined
1103 2013-03-24 09:34:01 <sipa> madmac2501: http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/fips/fips180-4/fips-180-4.pdf section 6.2
1104 2013-03-24 09:34:17 <sipa> madmac2501: but don't implement your own crypto, unless you know what you're doing
1105 2013-03-24 09:34:23 <sipa> (and it seems you don't)]
1106 2013-03-24 09:34:41 <madmac2501> sipa, well, i was asking more about this function call "sha256_func func = sha256_funcs[opt_algo];"
1107 2013-03-24 09:35:24 <sipa> that sounds like code for selecting which implementation to use
1108 2013-03-24 09:35:30 <sipa> where do you see that?
1109 2013-03-24 09:35:34 <madmac2501> sipa, i will reuse some assembly code, just need to made the inteface call
1110 2013-03-24 09:35:50 <madmac2501> in driver-cpu.c line 824
1111 2013-03-24 09:36:09 <sipa> i have no idea what you're talking about
1112 2013-03-24 09:36:15 <sipa> i have no driver-cpu.c on my system
1113 2013-03-24 09:37:10 rowit has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1115 2013-03-24 09:37:32 <madmac2501> oh, sorry, i am looking at bfgminer, not bitcoin code
1116 2013-03-24 09:38:05 <kapiteined> thanks for clearing that up for me, have to go, bye
1117 2013-03-24 09:38:12 <madmac2501> sipa, i just wake up, and don't think clearly :)
1118 2013-03-24 09:38:18 <sipa> madmac2501: technically, that isn't a function call at all
1119 2013-03-24 09:38:28 kapiteined has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 17.0.2/20130201230930])
1120 2013-03-24 09:38:38 <madmac2501> sipa, yeah, i know, it is selection a function from a array
1121 2013-03-24 09:38:39 <sipa> it just picks a sha256 implementation from an array of function points
1122 2013-03-24 09:38:50 <sipa> *pointers
1123 2013-03-24 09:39:13 <sipa> so what is your question?
1124 2013-03-24 09:39:25 <madmac2501> i didn't want to paste the full call
1125 2013-03-24 09:39:33 <sipa> (and why do you want sha256 in CPU?)
1126 2013-03-24 09:39:36 afadfsfs has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1127 2013-03-24 09:39:55 <madmac2501> the meaning of the parameters and the meaning of "struct work"
1128 2013-03-24 09:40:37 <madmac2501> it is just an exercise, i want to try new avx2 intel extension
1129 2013-03-24 09:40:43 bakingbread has joined
1130 2013-03-24 09:40:49 <sipa> let me look
1131 2013-03-24 09:41:13 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1133 2013-03-24 09:41:49 <sipa> i guess thr means threshold, a maximum value to report back
1134 2013-03-24 09:42:17 <sipa> midstate, data, hash1 sound like the datastructures in getwork
1135 2013-03-24 09:42:21 <madmac2501> sipa, that is info about the thread, i think
1136 2013-03-24 09:42:36 <sipa> could be!
1137 2013-03-24 09:42:47 <sipa> yeah, i guess
1138 2013-03-24 09:42:56 <madmac2501> sipa, why data is "unsigned char data[128]" ?
1139 2013-03-24 09:43:09 <sipa> the data being hashed, i assume
1140 2013-03-24 09:43:14 <sipa> padded version of the block header
1141 2013-03-24 09:43:18 <sipa> you're probably best off asking jgarzik or Luke-Jr
1142 2013-03-24 09:44:04 <madmac2501> sipa, yes, do you know their time zone?
1143 2013-03-24 09:44:17 <sipa> both are in the US
1144 2013-03-24 09:44:46 <madmac2501> sipa, oh, well, then i will wait, thanks for the help
1145 2013-03-24 09:46:28 space_cadet has joined
1146 2013-03-24 09:48:10 <madmac2501> sipa, btw, do you know how to submit patches to bfgminer?
1147 2013-03-24 09:48:32 <sipa> pull request on github, i suppose
1148 2013-03-24 09:48:42 kerum has quit (Quit: ---Smoke and Mirrors----)
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1151 2013-03-24 09:51:15 <madmac2501> sipa, thanks
1152 2013-03-24 09:57:15 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1160 2013-03-24 10:14:19 <EvilPete> 145 blocks to go till v2 supermajority.. not long now
1161 2013-03-24 10:18:24 <madmac2501> i am looking for a description of the fields in a block and its sizes, someone can help me?
1162 2013-03-24 10:21:20 gmatteson__ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1163 2013-03-24 10:21:21 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1164 2013-03-24 10:21:50 <madmac2501> ok, found
1165 2013-03-24 10:21:53 i2pRelay has joined
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1171 2013-03-24 10:27:35 <htserhre4h> http://redd.it/1awp1k buy50btc free2btc only$1199 - http://redd.it/1awp1k buy50btc free2btc only$1199 - http://redd.it/1awp1k buy50btc free2btc only$1199 - http://redd.it/1awp1k buy50btc free2btc only$1199 - http://redd.it/1awp1k buy50btc free2btc only$1199 -
1172 2013-03-24 10:27:37 <htserhre4h> http://redd.it/1awp1k buy50btc free2btc only$1199 - http://redd.it/1awp1k buy50btc free2btc only$1199 - http://redd.it/1awp1k buy50btc free2btc only$1199 - http://redd.it/1awp1k buy50btc free2btc only$1199 - http://redd.it/1awp1k buy50btc free2btc only$1199 -
1173 2013-03-24 10:27:40 <htserhre4h> http://redd.it/1awp1k buy50btc free2btc only$1199 - http://redd.it/1awp1k buy50btc free2btc only$1199 - http://redd.it/1awp1k buy50btc free2btc only$1199 - http://redd.it/1awp1k buy50btc free2btc only$1199 - http://redd.it/1awp1k buy50btc free2btc only$1199 -
1174 2013-03-24 10:27:59 <htserhre4h> http://redd.it/1awp1k buy50btc free2btc only$1199 - http://redd.it/1awp1k buy50btc free2btc only$1199 - http://redd.it/1awp1k buy50btc free2btc only$1199 - http://redd.it/1awp1k buy50btc free2btc only$1199 - http://redd.it/1awp1k buy50btc free2btc only$1199 -
1175 2013-03-24 10:28:00 <htserhre4h> http://redd.it/1awp1k buy50btc free2btc only$1199 - http://redd.it/1awp1k buy50btc free2btc only$1199 - http://redd.it/1awp1k buy50btc free2btc only$1199 - http://redd.it/1awp1k buy50btc free2btc only$1199 - http://redd.it/1awp1k buy50btc free2btc only$1199 -
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1180 2013-03-24 10:35:29 <warren> anyone have OP access in #p2pool? spammer is going nuts there.
1181 2013-03-24 10:37:25 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1189 2013-03-24 10:51:57 <[7]> warren: what specifically seems buggy about it?
1190 2013-03-24 10:52:12 <sipa> anyone know spanish? www.deltamonkeyforce.org lists a donation address that was used in many non-canonical sigs lately
1191 2013-03-24 10:52:31 <warren> [7]: works fine if you use it, but closing the app or background behavior is odd
1192 2013-03-24 10:53:29 <warren> Also rotating the phone can easily make the entire app crash if you're viewing certain screens.
1193 2013-03-24 10:53:30 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1194 2013-03-24 10:54:02 i2pRelay has joined
1195 2013-03-24 10:54:24 <Ogig> im spanish sipa, what do you need from that url?
1196 2013-03-24 10:54:37 <sipa> Ogig: a contact address
1197 2013-03-24 10:54:55 <sipa> Ogig: assuming they understand english, i'll contact them myself
1198 2013-03-24 10:55:24 johnsoft1 has joined
1199 2013-03-24 10:55:54 rdymac has joined
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1201 2013-03-24 10:56:39 lodse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1202 2013-03-24 10:57:19 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1203 2013-03-24 10:57:53 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1207 2013-03-24 10:58:34 <Ogig> sipa, i can't find any contact info, not a mail or anything. There is a forum with no activity tho.
1208 2013-03-24 10:58:55 <[7]> warren: rotating often reinstantiates the wholr activity, whivh might behave mostly like a restart of thr app. what does it do in the background for you? i haven't noticed problems with that yet
1209 2013-03-24 10:59:25 darkee has joined
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1211 2013-03-24 10:59:43 <Ogig> sipa, it's just a joomla template with almost no real content.
1212 2013-03-24 10:59:54 <warren> [7]: after you Disconnect, the connections don't go away from the pulldown
1213 2013-03-24 11:00:08 <sipa> Ogig: never mind; i found an address on the whois info for that domain
1214 2013-03-24 11:00:11 <warren> I want to kill the app entirely most of the time
1215 2013-03-24 11:01:33 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1218 2013-03-24 11:06:05 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
1219 2013-03-24 11:06:11 <[7]> well it tries to stay synced in the background
1220 2013-03-24 11:06:14 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1221 2013-03-24 11:06:31 <[7]> but you can tell it to only download blocks while charging
1222 2013-03-24 11:06:36 Casimir1904 has joined
1223 2013-03-24 11:07:11 * warren sleep
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1286 2013-03-24 11:38:04 <[7]> is jgarzik awake?
1287 2013-03-24 11:38:16 <[7]> or maybe nanotube?
1288 2013-03-24 11:38:31 mps has joined
1289 2013-03-24 11:38:54 <sipa> [7]: i think think that will take a few more hours
1290 2013-03-24 11:39:04 slush_ has joined
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1293 2013-03-24 11:39:31 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1294 2013-03-24 11:40:11 <[7]> we need a solution for the link spam problem in #bitcoin-fpga
1295 2013-03-24 11:40:54 slush_ has quit (Client Quit)
1296 2013-03-24 11:41:03 <[7]> I've talked to freenode staff, and it seems easiest to just let the bitcoin freenode group take control of that channel as well
1297 2013-03-24 11:41:12 <[7]> (currently it isn't registered)
1298 2013-03-24 11:41:17 slush_ has joined
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1305 2013-03-24 11:46:01 <Tykling> is it safe to delete the blk000x.dat and blkindex.dat that are not inside the blocks/ folder ?
1306 2013-03-24 11:46:20 <Tykling> it looks like they haven't been updated for a while
1307 2013-03-24 11:46:45 <Nothing4You> is a bitcoin address that only has numbers in it possible?
1308 2013-03-24 11:46:51 <[7]> Tykling: depends on whether you might want to downgrade at some point
1309 2013-03-24 11:47:20 <[7]> it has paid off for several pool ops to keep blkindex.dat around during the recent fork
1310 2013-03-24 11:47:22 <sipa> Nothing4You: in theory, yes
1311 2013-03-24 11:47:29 <Nothing4You> ok
1312 2013-03-24 11:47:37 <sipa> Nothing4You: in practice, don't know
1313 2013-03-24 11:47:49 <Tykling> [7]: right, ok, but for a regular user that is less likely I guess (I kind of need the diskspace on this laptop tbh)
1314 2013-03-24 11:48:01 <[7]> Nothing4You: should be fairly easy to calculate how much time you'll need to find one on average
1315 2013-03-24 11:48:03 <sipa> Nothing4You: pretty sure it's possible to construct
1316 2013-03-24 11:48:23 <[7]> Tykling: I know that 0.8.x doesn't use blkindex.dat anymore, not sure about the other file
1317 2013-03-24 11:48:34 space_cadet has joined
1318 2013-03-24 11:48:36 <sipa> Tykling: it will not gain you much diskspace
1319 2013-03-24 11:48:48 <sipa> Tykling: only blkindex.dat, basically
1320 2013-03-24 11:48:48 <Tykling> sipa: they are 5 gigabytes
1321 2013-03-24 11:48:53 <Nothing4You> how would i calculate that?
1322 2013-03-24 11:49:00 <sipa> yes, but the block files are hard linked
1323 2013-03-24 11:49:02 Saberu has joined
1324 2013-03-24 11:49:09 <Nothing4You> i mean the time it needs to find one
1325 2013-03-24 11:49:14 <Tykling> sipa: oh, I see
1326 2013-03-24 11:49:21 <sipa> Tykling: so even they appear twice, they only take space once
1327 2013-03-24 11:49:28 <sipa> but yes, you can delete them
1328 2013-03-24 11:49:38 <Tykling> right, cool thanks
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1333 2013-03-24 11:51:20 `Nothing4You is now known as Nothing4You
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1336 2013-03-24 11:54:41 <[7]> Nothing4You: well you can assume that if you generate random private keys, they will have randomly distributed public keys
1337 2013-03-24 11:54:53 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1338 2013-03-24 11:54:53 <Nothing4You> i know
1339 2013-03-24 11:55:09 <[7]> now looks at the conversion of random binary data to base58 and calculate the chance to get all digits
1340 2013-03-24 11:55:40 <[7]> which is 9/58 per digit
1341 2013-03-24 11:56:17 <[7]> for simplicity we can assume that the checksum will behave random as well
1342 2013-03-24 11:56:29 <[7]> now how long is a bitcoin address?
1343 2013-03-24 11:56:34 <Nothing4You> 34 chars
1344 2013-03-24 11:56:41 <Nothing4You> or shorter
1345 2013-03-24 11:57:01 <Nothing4You> 34 in vanitygen regex
1346 2013-03-24 11:57:05 <[7]> the first 8 bits are the version number and thus don't count
1347 2013-03-24 11:57:30 stretchwarren has joined
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1349 2013-03-24 11:57:50 <[7]> so let's say 32 chars for an overly optimistic estimation
1350 2013-03-24 11:57:58 <Nothing4You> k
1351 2013-03-24 11:58:17 i2pRelay has joined
1352 2013-03-24 11:58:21 <sipa> ;;calc (10/58)**33
1353 2013-03-24 11:58:21 Saberu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1354 2013-03-24 11:58:22 <gribble> 0
1355 2013-03-24 11:58:29 <Nothing4You> lol
1356 2013-03-24 11:58:46 <sipa> ;;calc 5.8**33
1357 2013-03-24 11:58:46 <gribble> 15599970876632756333314048
1358 2013-03-24 11:58:46 <[7]> so we have one all-digits address in 1/((9/58)**32) addresses on average
1359 2013-03-24 11:59:12 <Nothing4You> 10/58 != 58/10
1360 2013-03-24 11:59:33 <sipa> oh, 9, indeef
1361 2013-03-24 11:59:45 <sipa> ;;calc (58/9)**33
1362 2013-03-24 11:59:45 <gribble> 504801894443496583089618944
1363 2013-03-24 12:00:28 <Nothing4You> wtf
1364 2013-03-24 12:00:31 <sipa> Nothing4You: it's the inverse, obviously
1365 2013-03-24 12:00:31 <[7]> Nothing4You: so I think we don't need a more accurate estimate to realize that we'll probably never run across one :)
1366 2013-03-24 12:00:38 <Nothing4You> i get a different result than gribble
1367 2013-03-24 12:00:45 <Nothing4You> yeah i believe so
1368 2013-03-24 12:01:04 <sipa> ;;calc 33*log(58/9)/log(2)
1369 2013-03-24 12:01:04 <gribble> 88.7058477916
1370 2013-03-24 12:01:28 jonls has quit (Quit: leaving)
1371 2013-03-24 12:01:44 <sipa> it would require almost a million times more work to find one than has been used to build the current bitcoin chain
1372 2013-03-24 12:01:47 <Nothing4You> my calculation is about 479370097175 less than gribbles result
1373 2013-03-24 12:01:56 <sipa> rounding
1374 2013-03-24 12:02:00 <sipa> expected
1375 2013-03-24 12:02:07 <Nothing4You> rounding is bad :/
1376 2013-03-24 12:02:11 <[7]> the myths of floating point numbers :(
1377 2013-03-24 12:03:03 <sipa> a programmer had a problem, he thought "i'll use floating point to solve it!", now he has 1.9999997 problems
1378 2013-03-24 12:03:03 HM has joined
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1380 2013-03-24 12:03:13 <Nothing4You> lol
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1387 2013-03-24 12:08:32 <area> If you're having floating point problems, I feel bad for you, son. I've got 0.999998 problems but that just isn't 1.
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1397 2013-03-24 12:19:13 <fishfish> area: lol]
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1422 2013-03-24 12:51:25 <pegu> is there a site like blockchain.info which will dump the block header in hex?
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1426 2013-03-24 12:52:16 <asadab> how to create a bitcoin wallet service?
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1428 2013-03-24 12:52:29 <asadab> anybody?
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1437 2013-03-24 12:56:38 <sturles> asadab: You buy Bitcoin Wallet Service 1.0 from your local Wallmart, insert the CD and press Install, next, next, next, next, next, next, next, next, next, done.
1438 2013-03-24 12:58:13 <starsoccer> really?
1439 2013-03-24 12:58:14 <starsoccer> lol
1440 2013-03-24 12:58:32 pete78 has joined
1441 2013-03-24 12:58:55 <sipa> asadab: that's like asking "how to build a rocket engine?" - it will always require a nontrivial amount of work even with the best advise possible (which will likely need to come from people who have done so already, and probably with less help)
1442 2013-03-24 12:59:00 stanley has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1444 2013-03-24 13:01:14 <[7]> asadab: if you don't even want to run a bitcoind, you probanly just shouldn't do it at all
1445 2013-03-24 13:01:35 pete78 has quit (Client Quit)
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1448 2013-03-24 13:02:27 <[7]> actually you should only ever do such a thing if you know every single part that's involved well enough to be able to do it without any help
1449 2013-03-24 13:02:30 i2pRelay has joined
1450 2013-03-24 13:02:46 <[7]> because otherwise you WILL screw up, especially on security aspects
1451 2013-03-24 13:02:52 pete95 has joined
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1455 2013-03-24 13:03:47 <[7]> I, even though I would be perfectly capable of implementing such a thing myself, wouldn't ever dare to run a public eWallet, just because of security and liability concerns
1456 2013-03-24 13:03:55 joehoyle has joined
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1460 2013-03-24 13:07:45 <sipa> +1 [7]
1461 2013-03-24 13:08:52 <[7]> asadab: if you want to get a general grasp of how this kind of thing might work, you could try out my bitcoin WebUI project
1462 2013-03-24 13:08:54 <TD> sigh. my bitcoind seems to leak memory like a sieve but i can't figure out why
1463 2013-03-24 13:09:08 <[7]> that is basically the a very simple eWallet minus multi-user capability
1464 2013-03-24 13:09:15 <[7]> offloading all the hard work to bitcoind
1465 2013-03-24 13:09:24 <[7]> TD: which version?
1466 2013-03-24 13:09:30 <TD> current
1467 2013-03-24 13:09:41 <[7]> what order of magnitude of a leak?
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1469 2013-03-24 13:10:32 i2pRelay has joined
1470 2013-03-24 13:10:42 <[7]> mine is using up 387MB
1471 2013-03-24 13:10:44 has quit (Clown|!~clown@static-87-79-93-140.netcologne.de|Remote host closed the connection)
1472 2013-03-24 13:11:00 <[7]> running since a few days, but next to no RPC accesses
1473 2013-03-24 13:11:04 has joined
1474 2013-03-24 13:11:24 <TD> i've been trying it with tcmalloc to see if it makes any difference
1475 2013-03-24 13:11:38 <TD> it usually bloats up to 1gig and then gets OOM killed within about 24 hours
1476 2013-03-24 13:11:57 <TD> it's possible that tcmalloc is the thing that's killing it, but i was having trouble before that also
1477 2013-03-24 13:12:01 <doublec> I find it gets to 1 gig-ish then sits there
1478 2013-03-24 13:12:03 <[7]> how many p2p connections? is it getting accessed over RPC a lot?
1479 2013-03-24 13:12:21 <TD> no RPC access. i've just set it running again, will track p2p connection count this time
1480 2013-03-24 13:12:46 <[7]> TD: if it isn't a public node then p2p connection count will be low enough to not matter
1481 2013-03-24 13:12:52 <TD> it's a public node
1482 2013-03-24 13:12:57 <TD> basically i want to optimize it so it uses less memory
1483 2013-03-24 13:13:49 rdymac has joined
1484 2013-03-24 13:13:50 <Scrat> 1 month uptime, 360MB here
1485 2013-03-24 13:14:00 <TD> Scrat: is that accepting connections?
1486 2013-03-24 13:14:02 <[7]> that can't be a 0.8.x then :)
1487 2013-03-24 13:14:14 <Scrat> TD: nop
1488 2013-03-24 13:14:17 <[7]> or at least not 0.8.1
1489 2013-03-24 13:14:21 <sipa> TD: i've been wanting to merge jeff's patches, so we get rid of those huge per-connection buffers
1490 2013-03-24 13:14:37 <TD> i tried adding a vector().swap() call but it didn't seem to do much
1491 2013-03-24 13:14:47 <[7]> but seriously... how many connections do you need for 600MB of additional RAM usage=
1492 2013-03-24 13:14:51 <[7]> s/=/?
1493 2013-03-24 13:14:53 <sipa> TD: but it causes segfaults ~1 per day
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1496 2013-03-24 13:16:04 Lolcust has joined
1497 2013-03-24 13:16:10 <TD> yes, well i'm hoping for a simpler change
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1501 2013-03-24 13:19:12 <Jere_Jones> sipa: What do you mean by "non-canonical signature"?
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1506 2013-03-24 13:22:59 <Jere_Jones> sipa: Nevermind. I found your pull request so I get it now.
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1509 2013-03-24 13:25:00 <Luke-Jr> madmac2501: the midstate/data/hash1 are as originally used in the getwork protocol: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Getwork
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1511 2013-03-24 13:26:24 <Luke-Jr> Joric: ping
1512 2013-03-24 13:26:34 <Joric> hey!
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1515 2013-03-24 13:26:43 <Luke-Jr> Joric: 04:43:38 Withdraw error. Out of reserve.
1516 2013-03-24 13:26:44 <Luke-Jr> :/
1517 2013-03-24 13:27:03 <Joric> lose a few coins
1518 2013-03-24 13:27:14 <Luke-Jr> I don't want to lose XD
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1522 2013-03-24 13:28:15 <Luke-Jr> header sez Reserve: 2.07 BTC and Balance: 1173 1 coin = 0.01 BTC
1523 2013-03-24 13:29:05 <Joric> well sorry i'm not an american federal reserve bank
1524 2013-03-24 13:29:12 <Joric> i wish
1525 2013-03-24 13:29:58 <Joric> did you crack it or just got lucky?
1526 2013-03-24 13:30:02 <Luke-Jr> lucky :p
1527 2013-03-24 13:30:17 <Luke-Jr> how about a feature to withdraw only part of my balance? <.<
1528 2013-03-24 13:30:38 <madmac2501> Luke-Jr, oh, thanks, as an exercise i am trying to use avx intel extensions, the first aproach was totally slow like 0.03 M/s, i am using some intel asm plus some c code from other guy, without using midstate
1529 2013-03-24 13:31:02 <Joric> i'd implement any feature before i got a job :(
1530 2013-03-24 13:31:08 <Luke-Jr> madmac2501: yeah, without midstate you won't be able to get nearly as fast
1531 2013-03-24 13:31:27 <sipa> still, the effect of midstate shouldn't be more than a 2x speedup
1532 2013-03-24 13:31:32 space_cadet has joined
1533 2013-03-24 13:31:51 <Joric> btw good job with 0.8!
1534 2013-03-24 13:32:15 <Joric> always knew the lack of codereview will destroy civilization
1535 2013-03-24 13:32:21 <madmac2501> Luke-Jr, anyway it was just a very bad implementation, this would need to be adapted to full asm
1536 2013-03-24 13:32:28 <Luke-Jr> Joric: how about letting Withdraw do as much as it can, rather than just failing entirely? :p
1537 2013-03-24 13:32:29 <Joric> was gavin on vacation
1538 2013-03-24 13:32:41 <sipa> Joric: what are you talking about?
1539 2013-03-24 13:33:11 <Joric> sipa, the blockchain forking in 0.8
1540 2013-03-24 13:33:26 <sipa> well, 0.8's fault was not copying a bug...
1541 2013-03-24 13:33:33 <sipa> no code review would have exposed that
1542 2013-03-24 13:33:50 <kerum> it's not the code's fault
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1544 2013-03-24 13:34:21 <kerum> impossible to expect a bug like that
1545 2013-03-24 13:34:21 <Luke-Jr> it's Satoshi's fault. that's why he went into hiding. :p
1546 2013-03-24 13:34:37 i2pRelay has joined
1547 2013-03-24 13:34:37 <kerum> :D
1548 2013-03-24 13:34:42 nelisky has joined
1549 2013-03-24 13:35:39 <[7]> madmac2501: if you don't use the provided midstate, you'll have to calculate internally for an efficient implementation
1550 2013-03-24 13:35:44 <[7]> that's why it's there in the first place
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1552 2013-03-24 13:36:21 <[7]> cuts the processing power required into half (roughly)
1553 2013-03-24 13:37:18 <madmac2501> [7], i just made a fast test to benchmark the speed, i don't know if will made a good implementation, it depends on how much spare time i have
1554 2013-03-24 13:37:58 <[7]> which part of it do you have in asm currently?
1555 2013-03-24 13:38:41 <madmac2501> i have the reference sha implementation made by intel
1556 2013-03-24 13:39:03 <madmac2501> it is public available
1557 2013-03-24 13:39:45 <madmac2501> i don't pretend to make money, just do it as an exercise
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1561 2013-03-24 13:40:47 <[7]> madmac2501: sure, I'm just wondering why you say that you should rewrite more of it in asm
1562 2013-03-24 13:41:39 <madmac2501> [7], to use the midstate, also the current interface to call it is made in plain c
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1569 2013-03-24 13:49:53 <Joric> split key cryptography version http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/4180/30768852.png
1570 2013-03-24 13:50:03 <Joric> let's get rid of satoshidice!
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1577 2013-03-24 13:52:57 <flyingkiwiguy> I'm assuming that testnet is the most hetrogeneous place to test against multiple versions?
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1596 2013-03-24 14:08:08 <nanotube> [7]: hey, so you want to control #bitcoin-fpga?
1597 2013-03-24 14:08:21 <skinnkavaj> does anyone know how blockchain.info api works? i need som help
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1600 2013-03-24 14:10:56 <[7]> nanotube: not necessarily me, but someone should register that channel and take care of those spammers
1601 2013-03-24 14:11:53 <nanotube> [7]: well, ok then it'll be you, and you can hand out flags to whoever else you think is always around and can help out, how's that? :)
1602 2013-03-24 14:12:04 <[7]> flyingkiwiguy: remember that testnet has been restarted in 0.7 i think...
1603 2013-03-24 14:12:15 <[7]> nanotube: sure, I can do that
1604 2013-03-24 14:12:21 <nanotube> ok then. thanks :)
1605 2013-03-24 14:12:24 <nanotube> stand by
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1609 2013-03-24 14:15:17 <nanotube> made the request, will let you know when ircops wake up and see it. :)
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1613 2013-03-24 14:18:07 <[7]> nanotube: ok, thanks
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1615 2013-03-24 14:19:10 <flyingkiwiguy> [7]: as in you'll never find versions < 0.7 on testnet3?
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1617 2013-03-24 14:19:46 <SomeoneWeird> flyingkiwiguy, i think < 0.7 are on a different testnet
1618 2013-03-24 14:19:48 <SomeoneWeird> (not sure)
1619 2013-03-24 14:19:52 <flyingkiwiguy> hmm
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1627 2013-03-24 14:20:44 <flyingkiwiguy> that's not ideal, one would hope the major users of Bitcoin would also be present on testnet as a sort of "early warning system"
1628 2013-03-24 14:20:49 <aliljet> ugh, I've been running 5MH/s against testnet-in-a-box (tesnet with difficulty=1) and I've only mined 15 blocks and, therefore, have no bitcoins to play with (that are 'confirmed') -- is ther anyway I can speed this up?
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1632 2013-03-24 14:22:14 <SomeoneWeird> aliljet, nope, just wait for them to mature
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1636 2013-03-24 14:22:31 <flyingkiwiguy> it would be good if a few pools were using a slow GPU on testnet
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1639 2013-03-24 14:22:38 <aliljet> SomeoneWeird: how many blocks should I be able to mine per day?
1640 2013-03-24 14:22:51 i2pRelay has joined
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1643 2013-03-24 14:23:00 <flyingkiwiguy> one every 10 mins or so aliljet
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1645 2013-03-24 14:23:05 <Eliel> flyingkiwiguy: it makes no sense to use testnet for that. Better create a network specifically for this.
1646 2013-03-24 14:23:54 <flyingkiwiguy> Eliel: why?
1647 2013-03-24 14:24:05 <SomeoneWeird> aliljet, that depends entirely on your hashrate
1648 2013-03-24 14:24:10 <SomeoneWeird> what's the diff of testnet atm?
1649 2013-03-24 14:24:23 <Eliel> flyingkiwiguy: testnet has a purpose that's at odds with production use of any kind.
1650 2013-03-24 14:24:41 <aliljet> SomeoneWeird: I'm running a side testnet (testnet-in-a-box) and my difficulty is just 1
1651 2013-03-24 14:24:42 <Eliel> flyingkiwiguy: it's supposed to be a network that's ok to break.
1652 2013-03-24 14:24:44 <flyingkiwiguy> excuse my obtuseness, what it is used for?
1653 2013-03-24 14:24:50 <flyingkiwiguy> sure
1654 2013-03-24 14:25:07 <Eliel> flyingkiwiguy: what you're suggesting requires a network that's not ok to break.
1655 2013-03-24 14:25:11 <flyingkiwiguy> including breaking pools, non-standard implementations, etc.
1656 2013-03-24 14:25:53 Sealy has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1657 2013-03-24 14:26:12 <SomeoneWeird> ;;genrate 5 1
1658 2013-03-24 14:26:13 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 5.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 1.0, is 2514.53258215 BTC per day and 104.772190923 BTC per hour.
1659 2013-03-24 14:26:15 <SomeoneWeird> aliljet, ^
1660 2013-03-24 14:26:38 <aliljet> yeah, that's what I calculated somewhere else too
1661 2013-03-24 14:26:52 <aliljet> and that's probably what I'm getting
1662 2013-03-24 14:26:57 <aliljet> is there no way I can set the difficulty to .1
1663 2013-03-24 14:26:58 <aliljet> ?
1664 2013-03-24 14:27:03 <flyingkiwiguy> so how would I validate my (fictional) supernode works fine with the major pools and wallet implementations?
1665 2013-03-24 14:27:24 <SomeoneWeird> aliljet, don't think so
1666 2013-03-24 14:27:45 <SomeoneWeird> (i'm not a dev)
1667 2013-03-24 14:27:48 cads2 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1668 2013-03-24 14:27:51 <aliljet> ;;genrate 500 1
1669 2013-03-24 14:27:52 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 500.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 1.0, is 251453.258215 BTC per day and 10477.2190923 BTC per hour.
1670 2013-03-24 14:27:59 <aliljet> time to gpu mine.
1671 2013-03-24 14:28:13 Sealy has joined
1672 2013-03-24 14:28:23 <SomeoneWeird> lol
1673 2013-03-24 14:28:24 cads2 has joined
1674 2013-03-24 14:28:25 <SomeoneWeird> yeah
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1678 2013-03-24 14:29:22 <aliljet> damn cgminer crashes every time
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1685 2013-03-24 14:31:38 <nanotube> [7]: you now have op on -fpga . feel free to register the chan, then hand out flags per your discretion.
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1688 2013-03-24 14:34:08 <nanotube> aliljet: iirc you can set diff to whatever you want on testnet in a box. even <1.
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1691 2013-03-24 14:36:33 <aliljet> nanotube: any idea how? I'd love to do that...
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1695 2013-03-24 14:39:20 <sipa> nanotube: not without a patch
1696 2013-03-24 14:40:31 <aliljet> lol, there we go, mining 1 GH now.
1697 2013-03-24 14:40:38 <aliljet> shouldn't require that kind of craziness :(
1698 2013-03-24 14:40:38 <SomeoneWeird> haha nice
1699 2013-03-24 14:40:44 <SomeoneWeird> you should get quite a few now
1700 2013-03-24 14:40:48 <SomeoneWeird> (why do you need lots?)
1701 2013-03-24 14:40:57 <aliljet> I don't, I justt need one :)
1702 2013-03-24 14:41:07 <SomeoneWeird> ah right, not confirmed
1703 2013-03-24 14:41:12 <aliljet> I'm writing up an app where I want to test the movement of coins back and forth and an good transparent accounting trategy
1704 2013-03-24 14:41:15 <aliljet> hah
1705 2013-03-24 14:41:33 <SomeoneWeird> ;;genrate 1000 1
1706 2013-03-24 14:41:34 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 1000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 1.0, is 502906.516431 BTC per day and 20954.4381846 BTC per hour.
1707 2013-03-24 14:41:36 <Scrat> plus it feels good to be a testnet millionaire
1708 2013-03-24 14:41:40 <nanotube> sipa: ah well... maybe it should be in the conf. :)
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1710 2013-03-24 14:41:48 <SomeoneWeird> nanotube, +1
1711 2013-03-24 14:41:57 <nanotube> ;;gentime 1000 1
1712 2013-03-24 14:41:57 <gribble> The average time to generate a block at 1000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 1.0, is 4 seconds
1713 2013-03-24 14:42:07 <nanotube> heh nice
1714 2013-03-24 14:42:22 <aliljet> hahah
1715 2013-03-24 14:42:25 <SomeoneWeird> ;;calc 400/60
1716 2013-03-24 14:42:25 <gribble> 6.66666666667
1717 2013-03-24 14:42:29 <SomeoneWeird> 6 minutes to get 100 blocks
1718 2013-03-24 14:42:34 <SomeoneWeird> should be fine :P
1719 2013-03-24 14:42:36 <aliljet> woot, I should be up and running super fast
1720 2013-03-24 14:42:40 <aliljet> :)
1721 2013-03-24 14:42:57 <aliljet> and the block count is quickly moving now
1722 2013-03-24 14:43:01 <aliljet> time to grab some cereal
1723 2013-03-24 14:43:49 <aliljet> damn, and now the difficulty has gone to 121.
1724 2013-03-24 14:44:39 <aliljet> ;;genrate 500 121
1725 2013-03-24 14:44:39 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 500.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 121.0, is 2078.12610095 BTC per day and 86.5885875397 BTC per hour.
1726 2013-03-24 14:45:06 <sipa> Luke-Jr: how good is bfgminer with ztex fpga's?
1727 2013-03-24 14:45:42 <sipa> Luke-Jr: the java miner that comes with it shuts itself down "hash rate drop detected, shutting down to prevent overheating!" every time i do something CPU intensive...
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1731 2013-03-24 14:47:47 <[7]> nanotube: thanks
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1743 2013-03-24 14:52:16 <Eliel> flyingkiwiguy: I expect you'd need to build a testnet of your own with a heterogeneous environment.
1744 2013-03-24 14:52:49 <Eliel> flyingkiwiguy: although that's a bit difficult as many pools are running custom versions and not necessarily divulging exactly what code.
1745 2013-03-24 14:53:23 <Eliel> flyingkiwiguy: also, mtgox is running a full custom implementation and they're also not sharing the code.
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1747 2013-03-24 14:54:55 <Eliel> flyingkiwiguy: so, in effect, you'll just have to make do with what's available and then pray it works. If it doesn't then you use the real network for testing.
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1750 2013-03-24 15:02:35 <flyingkiwiguy> ty Eliel - I guess the "community" is then setting itself up for unplanned hard forks then
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1755 2013-03-24 15:05:04 <SomeoneWeird> flyingkiwiguy, howso
1756 2013-03-24 15:05:12 <Luke-Jr> sipa: works great for me
1757 2013-03-24 15:05:36 ripshy has joined
1758 2013-03-24 15:06:48 <flyingkiwiguy> SomeoneWeird: because without a test env somewhat representative of mainnet bugs like earlier this month will likely reoccur
1759 2013-03-24 15:07:00 <SomeoneWeird> it's not the network
1760 2013-03-24 15:07:02 <SomeoneWeird> it's the client
1761 2013-03-24 15:07:10 <flyingkiwiguy> sure
1762 2013-03-24 15:07:28 <flyingkiwiguy> but the same distribution of clients is not available to test
1763 2013-03-24 15:07:33 <flyingkiwiguy> against
1764 2013-03-24 15:07:41 <SomeoneWeird> oh, yeah
1765 2013-03-24 15:07:50 <SomeoneWeird> you're not going to found any breaking bugs on the testnet
1766 2013-03-24 15:08:02 <SomeoneWeird> it's mainly for people who want to test software without spending $ on bitcoins
1767 2013-03-24 15:08:08 <flyingkiwiguy> sure
1768 2013-03-24 15:08:17 <flyingkiwiguy> and testnet-in-abox is homogeneous
1769 2013-03-24 15:08:41 <SomeoneWeird> mhm
1770 2013-03-24 15:09:32 <flyingkiwiguy> if I were developing a new wallet/pool/other implementation I'd be running it on testnet3 24x7 hoping to see it process lots of different tx from multiple clients/pools
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1772 2013-03-24 15:11:02 <flyingkiwiguy> hindsight is of course 20-20, but.. had we had some 0.7.0 miners and sufficient tx on testnet3, the hardfork might have been repro'ed before it was caused on mainnet
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1776 2013-03-24 15:13:08 <flyingkiwiguy> more constructively - has there been any discussion on how test better to identify such scenarios in the future, given that no unit test is likely to find such a bug
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1778 2013-03-24 15:14:00 <SomeoneWeird> not really
1779 2013-03-24 15:14:08 <Scrat> flyingkiwiguy: why not? it was such an edge case that noone thought of it
1780 2013-03-24 15:14:09 ripshy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1781 2013-03-24 15:14:14 <SomeoneWeird> unit tests need to be written for edge cases
1782 2013-03-24 15:14:16 <Scrat> but of course it's testable
1783 2013-03-24 15:14:20 <gmaxwell> SomeoneWeird: yes there has been. gah.
1784 2013-03-24 15:14:30 <SomeoneWeird> gmaxwell, oh, sorry
1785 2013-03-24 15:14:41 <SomeoneWeird> the bit about breaking bugs?
1786 2013-03-24 15:15:00 <gmaxwell> flyingkiwiguy: We test multiversion agreement. The tests include testing very large blocks, but didn't include testing ones that happened to hit a large number of locks.
1787 2013-03-24 15:16:19 <flyingkiwiguy> here's a draft proposal - get miners and major merchants to run their code in parallel on testnet3
1788 2013-03-24 15:16:24 <sipa> jgarzik: present?
1789 2013-03-24 15:16:43 <gmaxwell> flyingkiwiguy: They've been asked to.
1790 2013-03-24 15:17:02 <flyingkiwiguy> but likely have no incientive to do so currently
1791 2013-03-24 15:17:05 <Scrat> flyingkiwiguy: and then you have to simulate real world traffic which is non trivial
1792 2013-03-24 15:17:16 <gmaxwell> And in some cases (blockchain.info, for example) flatly said no. In other cases (mtgox) said they would but haven't done it.
1793 2013-03-24 15:17:29 Lolcust has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1794 2013-03-24 15:17:38 <flyingkiwiguy> is it not possible to get 2-3 bots cloning tx's the see on mainnet on testnet3?
1795 2013-03-24 15:17:48 <gmaxwell> In some cases (satoshidice) demanded insane payments.
1796 2013-03-24 15:17:56 <flyingkiwiguy> taht would likely generate say 150-200% traffic
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1798 2013-03-24 15:18:32 <gmaxwell> it's not clear that just generating traffic would have been helpful. After all, we had very large blocks on testnet.
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1800 2013-03-24 15:19:09 sgstair has quit (Quit: .«UPP»Â.)
1801 2013-03-24 15:19:09 <gmaxwell> (though it would certantly be good and fine to have more traffic there)
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1803 2013-03-24 15:19:34 <flyingkiwiguy> I think there's a network effect in that there is so little tx on testnet3, it is not in anyone's interest to test there
1804 2013-03-24 15:19:44 <flyingkiwiguy> or be present and implicitly test there
1805 2013-03-24 15:20:44 <gmaxwell> flyingkiwiguy: There is testing there, of course. Fake traffic is only going to discourage people from doing their own testing there if it does anything at all to other people's motivations.
1806 2013-03-24 15:21:17 <flyingkiwiguy> discourage, gmaxwell ?
1807 2013-03-24 15:21:44 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: we don't have merged mining ;)
1808 2013-03-24 15:21:55 <flyingkiwiguy> ahh
1809 2013-03-24 15:22:02 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: that would make it way less faithful to bitcoin.
1810 2013-03-24 15:22:13 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it cpu mines fine. :)
1811 2013-03-24 15:22:26 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: not necessarily. it's essential if you want miners doing testnet too
1812 2013-03-24 15:22:38 <Luke-Jr> not necessarily = plan it for a future hardfork on mainnet
1813 2013-03-24 15:22:43 <flyingkiwiguy> wouldn't we just need a few GPUs on testnet to simulate pools?
1814 2013-03-24 15:23:03 <gmaxwell> flyingkiwiguy: we have that, what do you want??
1815 2013-03-24 15:23:42 <flyingkiwiguy> so what's missing is a lot of traffic then?
1816 2013-03-24 15:23:52 <Luke-Jr> basically
1817 2013-03-24 15:24:08 <flyingkiwiguy> how does one create dust like SD?
1818 2013-03-24 15:24:17 <gmaxwell> flyingkiwiguy: wait. What makes you believe that there is anything missing at all?
1819 2013-03-24 15:24:36 <flyingkiwiguy> SD, for a start
1820 2013-03-24 15:25:09 <gmaxwell> Well you can get SD there, just pay them 1000 BTC.
1821 2013-03-24 15:25:24 <gmaxwell> (thats what they said when they were previously asked)
1822 2013-03-24 15:25:33 <flyingkiwiguy> SD is essentially a dust creator, right?
1823 2013-03-24 15:26:06 <Luke-Jr> flyingkiwiguy: just run a script to make spam
1824 2013-03-24 15:26:12 <Luke-Jr> fees should be no problem to fund on testnet
1825 2013-03-24 15:26:21 <gmaxwell> We've had big blocks full of transactions there, just as you'd have if you were trying to simulate SD, sorry to say.
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1828 2013-03-24 15:26:57 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: Rick Astley is not the same as DP crap
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1830 2013-03-24 15:27:23 <flyingkiwiguy> seems like the best I can spam is about 1tx/sec on testnet3
1831 2013-03-24 15:27:27 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: we have blocks full of transactions too.
1832 2013-03-24 15:28:50 <sipa> testnet isn't about modelling bitcoin's economics
1833 2013-03-24 15:28:50 <sipa> that won't work without an economy around it
1834 2013-03-24 15:29:46 <flyingkiwiguy> I don't care about economics, just a place where there is a wide mix of versions and txs
1835 2013-03-24 15:29:58 <gmaxwell> sipa: that testnet is caled "litecoin"
1836 2013-03-24 15:30:10 <flyingkiwiguy> it is not going to be anywhere realistic, just better than nothing
1837 2013-03-24 15:30:16 <gmaxwell> flyingkiwiguy: if thats your only criteria, we've had that.
1838 2013-03-24 15:30:38 <gmaxwell> The txn diversity on testnet is wider that mainnet, too.
1839 2013-03-24 15:30:43 <flyingkiwiguy> ok
1840 2013-03-24 15:31:03 <flyingkiwiguy> I don't see that much traffic
1841 2013-03-24 15:32:10 <gmaxwell> At the moment there isn't, it goes up and down when people are actively testing or not.
1842 2013-03-24 15:32:38 <flyingkiwiguy> so there is a coordinateed effort to test a release?
1843 2013-03-24 15:34:14 <kinlo> mmmz, Bip34 is probably going to kick in in about an hour or 2
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1848 2013-03-24 15:39:56 <jgarzik> sipa: now, yes
1849 2013-03-24 15:40:19 <sipa> jgarzik: i'm reworking your netmsg patches a bit
1850 2013-03-24 15:40:36 <jgarzik> sipa: did you see the UDP patch? It wants netmsg too
1851 2013-03-24 15:41:09 <sipa> i saw it, but i'm not convinced about the usefulness of UDP, especially when a TCP control channel is needed anyway
1852 2013-03-24 15:41:19 Sealy has quit (Quit: Sealy)
1853 2013-03-24 15:41:34 <sipa> anyway, i think i've found (and fixed) some bugs; it seems to work now without valgrind complaining
1854 2013-03-24 15:41:45 ripshy has joined
1855 2013-03-24 15:42:18 <sipa> and now i'm working on changing the vSend buffer also be an array of separately-allocated network messages
1856 2013-03-24 15:42:35 cads has joined
1857 2013-03-24 15:42:38 <sipa> so we don't need huge allocated per-connection buffers
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1860 2013-03-24 15:43:19 <jgarzik> sipa: great
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1862 2013-03-24 15:43:37 <sipa> i wonder if there's an overhead in calling send() for each
1863 2013-03-24 15:43:49 <sipa> instead of it being aggregated already in one buffer
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1865 2013-03-24 15:44:38 <jgarzik> sipa: certainly there is, but it's largely syscall + copy to kernel buffer
1866 2013-03-24 15:44:51 <jgarzik> sipa: very tiny on modern machines
1867 2013-03-24 15:45:01 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1868 2013-03-24 15:45:11 <sipa> iirc there was at least on linux a syscall to send a bunch at once
1869 2013-03-24 15:45:32 <jgarzik> sipa: http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/sendmmsg.2.html ?
1870 2013-03-24 15:45:48 <jgarzik> or writev?
1871 2013-03-24 15:46:05 <Luke-Jr> sendfile :p
1872 2013-03-24 15:46:15 <sipa> i was referring to writev, yes, but that won't work if you want to pass send flags
1873 2013-03-24 15:46:28 <sipa> anyway, it's probably neglectible anyway
1874 2013-03-24 15:46:29 <jgarzik> ironically, sendfile from ramfs would be quite nice
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1876 2013-03-24 15:46:56 <jgarzik> sendfile is better because it is zero-copy and possibly uses hardware acceleration... but is far more difficult to use
1877 2013-03-24 15:47:44 <jgarzik> not really applicable here (though it could be shoehorned to work, with effort we do not wish to expend)
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1893 2013-03-24 16:09:10 <jgarzik> sipa: sendmmsg passes flags
1894 2013-03-24 16:09:21 <jgarzik> sipa: but OS-specific, with all that implies
1895 2013-03-24 16:10:09 kerum has quit (Quit: ---Smoke and Mirrors----)
1896 2013-03-24 16:11:08 <sipa> jgarzik: EWONTBOTHER :)
1897 2013-03-24 16:12:03 * Luke-Jr wonders if WSAPoll is viable for bitcoin use
1898 2013-03-24 16:13:21 <CodeShark> 100 blocks still until BIP0034?
1899 2013-03-24 16:13:45 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
1900 2013-03-24 16:13:45 <Diablo-D3> which one is 34?
1901 2013-03-24 16:13:58 <Diablo-D3> the fix for the 0.7.x bug?
1902 2013-03-24 16:14:08 <CodeShark> v2 blocks
1903 2013-03-24 16:14:35 <Luke-Jr> removing the txid limit is BIP 50
1904 2013-03-24 16:15:10 <CodeShark> 94 more blocks
1905 2013-03-24 16:15:56 <gmaxwell> blocks should be a bit slower considering the big difficulty bump.
1906 2013-03-24 16:16:04 <gmaxwell> 6.6 million now.
1907 2013-03-24 16:16:23 <Joric> Luke-Jr, how much did you raise on ragecoins lately? :)
1908 2013-03-24 16:16:34 _sgstair has joined
1909 2013-03-24 16:16:34 sgstair has quit (Disconnected by services)
1910 2013-03-24 16:16:35 _sgstair is now known as sgstair
1911 2013-03-24 16:16:46 <Luke-Jr> Joric: you made me lose it all :/
1912 2013-03-24 16:16:53 rdymac has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1913 2013-03-24 16:17:25 <Joric> well at least you got those 0.07 or something
1914 2013-03-24 16:17:53 jeewee has joined
1915 2013-03-24 16:18:33 FredEE has joined
1916 2013-03-24 16:18:40 <jeewee> is it possible to get a transaction dump from bitcoind like the one shown at blockchain.info?
1917 2013-03-24 16:18:52 <CodeShark> getrawtransaction
1918 2013-03-24 16:18:58 <jeewee> ah
1919 2013-03-24 16:19:11 <jeewee> thx!
1920 2013-03-24 16:19:56 <CodeShark> make sure to use -reindex -txindex if you also want to query nonwallet transactions in the latest versions
1921 2013-03-24 16:20:12 <sipa> CodeShark: getrawtransaction never looks in the wallet
1922 2013-03-24 16:20:22 <sipa> for wallet queries you need gettransaction
1923 2013-03-24 16:20:37 <CodeShark> sipa: getrawtransaction doesn't work at all without -txindex?
1924 2013-03-24 16:20:51 FredEE has quit (Client Quit)
1925 2013-03-24 16:20:52 <aliljet> here's a random best practices question -- should I rely on the bitcoind to handle lots of account details in its database or should I just have my application hang onto details about bitcoin addresses and their associated users?
1926 2013-03-24 16:21:09 <sipa> CodeShark: it works for unspent transactions, by doing a slow scan of the block at the height known to the UTXO set
1927 2013-03-24 16:21:10 <CodeShark> aliljet: I recommend the latter
1928 2013-03-24 16:21:23 <aliljet> that's kind of what I suspected
1929 2013-03-24 16:21:44 Joric has quit ()
1930 2013-03-24 16:21:53 <gmaxwell> aliljet: I don't think you'll find anyone recommending you use bitcoind accounts for that kind of usage.
1931 2013-03-24 16:22:03 <CodeShark> aliljet: a day may come when you want to change wallets - and if you rely on bitcoind to handle all your account information, you're sort of screwed :)
1932 2013-03-24 16:22:10 <aliljet> yep :)
1933 2013-03-24 16:22:26 <aliljet> are people basically writing their own from-scratch apis to query the blockchain for details?
1934 2013-03-24 16:22:40 <aliljet> for example, I'm trying to measure the number of confirmations for a particular transaction
1935 2013-03-24 16:22:57 <aliljet> right now I'm asking bitcoind to give me details using the getbalancebyaddress query
1936 2013-03-24 16:23:03 <aliljet> (and setting different minval thresholds)
1937 2013-03-24 16:23:15 <Scrat> aliljet: gettransaction works
1938 2013-03-24 16:23:16 <CodeShark> you can use getrawtransaction - or you can keep track of your own block tree
1939 2013-03-24 16:23:18 <CodeShark> I've done both
1940 2013-03-24 16:23:19 <CodeShark> lol
1941 2013-03-24 16:23:31 <aliljet> haha
1942 2013-03-24 16:23:42 <aliljet> it seems like a lot fo work to start keep tracking of my own blockchain
1943 2013-03-24 16:23:52 <helo> i'm surprised to see bitcoin-qt at 1.2G RES
1944 2013-03-24 16:24:10 <aliljet> and the api query is actually getreceivedbyaddress with different minvals to get back my version of confirmed transactions
1945 2013-03-24 16:24:11 <helo> is anyone else close to this?
1946 2013-03-24 16:24:16 <CodeShark> Scrat: gettransaction only works for wallet transactions
1947 2013-03-24 16:24:25 <sipa> helo: many connections?
1948 2013-03-24 16:24:28 <Scrat> CodeShark: sure, that's what he wants
1949 2013-03-24 16:24:33 <helo> yes probably :)
1950 2013-03-24 16:24:44 <helo> haha 60
1951 2013-03-24 16:24:53 <CodeShark> you never want to listen for incoming transactions and keep track of confirmations on the same machine that holds your private keys :p
1952 2013-03-24 16:24:58 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
1953 2013-03-24 16:24:58 <sipa> helo: feel free to test #2409
1954 2013-03-24 16:25:02 <aliljet> yep, taht's perfectly fair
1955 2013-03-24 16:25:06 duckybsd has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1956 2013-03-24 16:25:09 <helo> ok
1957 2013-03-24 16:25:35 <CodeShark> the idea of keeping my private keys on all my listening nodes would make me unable to sleep at night :p
1958 2013-03-24 16:25:53 <aliljet> one more random question -- lets suppose I want to keep track of balances over time that could be changing -- do people typically run cron-style jobs to recalculate system-wide balances and changes?
1959 2013-03-24 16:26:01 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
1960 2013-03-24 16:26:05 <aliljet> haha, I understand that completely.
1961 2013-03-24 16:26:53 <helo> sipa: good timing :)
1962 2013-03-24 16:27:19 Guest47513 is now known as takeyourhatoff
1963 2013-03-24 16:27:21 <Scrat> aliljet: polling is not efficient
1964 2013-03-24 16:27:22 <CodeShark> you should be able to query balances by querying the utxo set...but you need an address index
1965 2013-03-24 16:27:54 <aliljet> ah, so scrap the polling idea, fair
1966 2013-03-24 16:27:58 <aliljet> utxo set?
1967 2013-03-24 16:28:04 <CodeShark> unspent transactions
1968 2013-03-24 16:28:17 <Scrat> it's a quick implementation and it works
1969 2013-03-24 16:28:32 <aliljet> hm, then maybe I'm doing something fundamentally wrong
1970 2013-03-24 16:28:35 <Scrat> are you going to be processing thousands of payments per day?
1971 2013-03-24 16:28:40 <aliljet> maybe
1972 2013-03-24 16:28:44 <aliljet> who knows, maybe.
1973 2013-03-24 16:28:45 <aliljet> :)
1974 2013-03-24 16:28:53 <aliljet> but here's what I was thinking
1975 2013-03-24 16:28:57 <CodeShark> aliljet: bitcoind doesn't really make it easy for payment processing application developers to write clean code :p
1976 2013-03-24 16:29:09 <aliljet> CodeShark: yep, I've started to learn that :)
1977 2013-03-24 16:29:20 <aliljet> I was thinking I would generate a new address for each account that was created.
1978 2013-03-24 16:29:20 <CodeShark> you have to write much of your own stuff if you want to do it right
1979 2013-03-24 16:29:29 <Scrat> walletnotify & blocknotify will do then
1980 2013-03-24 16:29:35 <aliljet> and then these addresses would receive money
1981 2013-03-24 16:29:37 slush has joined
1982 2013-03-24 16:29:48 <aliljet> and then I would handle all of the accounting outside of the bitcoin universe
1983 2013-03-24 16:29:58 <Scrat> if you chose to store priv keys on the server (depends on the use case)
1984 2013-03-24 16:30:01 slush_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1985 2013-03-24 16:30:04 <aliljet> and then at the end of the day, I'd settle all of the accounts and move money around including moving money o ut of the central "bank"
1986 2013-03-24 16:30:05 <CodeShark> bitcoind's API is more designed around a single interactive user model
1987 2013-03-24 16:30:13 <Scrat> CodeShark: if you're an online shop for example
1988 2013-03-24 16:30:27 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: it is?
1989 2013-03-24 16:30:41 <aliljet> single interactive user mode... yeah, I know. :(
1990 2013-03-24 16:30:46 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: ... I sure don't think it is, it avoids having state where state would be pretty useful.
1991 2013-03-24 16:30:48 <CodeShark> well, it doesn't support large concurrency, has no real access controls, and is very wallet-centric
1992 2013-03-24 16:30:51 <aliljet> it makes me just a little sad.
1993 2013-03-24 16:30:52 <jeewee> is just doing 'apt-get install bitcoind' very stupid, i am getting a version number like this: Bitcoin version vCLIENT_VERSION_MAJOR.CLIENT_VERSION_MINOR.CLIENT_VERSION_REVISION.CLIENT_VERSION_BUILD-g40fd689-beta
1994 2013-03-24 16:30:54 <Scrat> makes no sense to run 2 machines, you're withdrawing the money all the time anyway
1995 2013-03-24 16:31:18 <aliljet> no one is generating a new wallet for each user?
1996 2013-03-24 16:31:18 <aliljet> right?
1997 2013-03-24 16:31:34 <sipa> jeewee: known issue a few versions back, i think
1998 2013-03-24 16:31:38 <Scrat> aliljet: the correct way (tm) is to generate a new address for each payment
1999 2013-03-24 16:31:48 <sipa> jeewee: what does dpkg -p bitcoind tell you?
2000 2013-03-24 16:31:55 <Scrat> there is only 1 wallet
2001 2013-03-24 16:32:00 <aliljet> and then have a central wallet for the app
2002 2013-03-24 16:32:14 <aliljet> and account for each user by storing their transactions and computing their balances that way
2003 2013-03-24 16:32:30 <jeewee> sipa: ohnoes.. 0.6.2!
2004 2013-03-24 16:32:36 <aliljet> right?
2005 2013-03-24 16:32:40 <jeewee> sipa: i'll build it
2006 2013-03-24 16:32:48 <jeewee> sipa: thx
2007 2013-03-24 16:33:21 <sipa> jeewee: this makes me fear may 15th...
2008 2013-03-24 16:33:39 <Scrat> aliljet: walletnotify to get notified of new transactions affecting your wallet, then gettransaction on their txid on every new block (blocknotify) to check confirmations
2009 2013-03-24 16:33:48 <aliljet> let me ask about a different use case: if a user needs to buy something from another user, what is the best practice way of handling that? my assumption was that it would be a frictionaless movement of money inside the wallet and I wouldn't generate a transaction for teh blockchain
2010 2013-03-24 16:33:52 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: point is, bitcoind isn't really designed as a backend to support high volume payment processing - or any payment processing, really, for anything bigger than a one-person shop :)
2011 2013-03-24 16:33:58 nus- has joined
2012 2013-03-24 16:34:01 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: we'd much better achieve access control by splitting the wallets into seperate processes. (the blockchain process itself has little need for access control, since its data is all public)
2013 2013-03-24 16:34:06 <aliljet> Scrat: makes a lot of sense.
2014 2013-03-24 16:34:07 <sipa> aliljet: indeed
2015 2013-03-24 16:34:31 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: Right, I was just taking objection to the "single user interactive" because its clearly not that.
2016 2013-03-24 16:34:35 <aliljet> okay, this is starting to feel okay
2017 2013-03-24 16:34:41 <Scrat> aliljet: with that method everything has to be atomic, so storing tx's in a db is required
2018 2013-03-24 16:34:45 Beef has quit ()
2019 2013-03-24 16:35:03 <aliljet> Scrat: yep, I'm walking that route. I'm trying to come up with the smart way of being INCREDIBLY transparent to users.
2020 2013-03-24 16:35:10 <aliljet> trust is tough in this community
2021 2013-03-24 16:35:27 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: I'm all for the approach of the wallet running as a separate process
2022 2013-03-24 16:35:34 sanchaz has quit (Changing host)
2023 2013-03-24 16:35:34 sanchaz has joined
2024 2013-03-24 16:35:36 <CodeShark> I've been advocating that for many months
2025 2013-03-24 16:36:03 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: then you're years behind everyone else. :P
2026 2013-03-24 16:36:06 <aliljet> walletnotify -- where is that described?
2027 2013-03-24 16:36:28 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: really? where are the implementations?
2028 2013-03-24 16:37:05 nus has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2029 2013-03-24 16:37:10 <sipa> CodeShark: you're years behind advocating that :)
2030 2013-03-24 16:37:33 <sipa> but words are cheap, of course
2031 2013-03-24 16:38:02 <CodeShark> I actually wrote my own wallet app a couple years ago...but I didn't advocate it widely :p
2032 2013-03-24 16:38:14 pale_fire has joined
2033 2013-03-24 16:38:17 <Scrat> aliljet: I don't think it's in the docs; the syntax is --walletnotify command, where %s is replaced with the txid
2034 2013-03-24 16:38:31 <Scrat> that would be '-' sorry
2035 2013-03-24 16:38:44 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: the codebase has been gradually moving in a direction where seperating them will be possible... but only gradually.
2036 2013-03-24 16:39:02 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_protocol
2037 2013-03-24 16:39:28 tonikt has joined
2038 2013-03-24 16:39:54 <gmaxwell> I've kind been hoping that etotheipi could be convinced to hoist armory onto the rpc, seems like that won't happen.
2039 2013-03-24 16:39:57 <aliljet> hm, the undocumented api calls :)
2040 2013-03-24 16:40:16 <sipa> aliljet: it's not an API call
2041 2013-03-24 16:40:28 <aliljet> hm, what is it?
2042 2013-03-24 16:40:29 <Scrat> aliljet: it triggers on 3 occasions: mempool inclusion, block inclusion, and outgoing wallet tx
2043 2013-03-24 16:40:32 <sipa> aliljet: just a commandline option
2044 2013-03-24 16:40:36 <aliljet> ah, okay
2045 2013-03-24 16:40:42 <aliljet> so it's not avaialbe as an RPC?
2046 2013-03-24 16:40:46 <sipa> no
2047 2013-03-24 16:40:50 <aliljet> I see
2048 2013-03-24 16:40:51 <Luke-Jr> aliljet: JSON-RPC is one-way
2049 2013-03-24 16:40:58 Beef has joined
2050 2013-03-24 16:41:08 <aliljet> yep
2051 2013-03-24 16:41:19 FredEE has joined
2052 2013-03-24 16:41:27 <aliljet> damn, okay, the fam is demanding I run out
2053 2013-03-24 16:41:30 <aliljet> I'll be back.
2054 2013-03-24 16:41:31 <Luke-Jr> you could set -walletnotify 'curl â¦' if you want
2055 2013-03-24 16:41:32 <aliljet> you all rock.
2056 2013-03-24 16:41:40 <Luke-Jr> err, use = instead of space
2057 2013-03-24 16:41:45 <aliljet> oohh
2058 2013-03-24 16:41:48 <aliljet> so, that makes sense
2059 2013-03-24 16:41:57 <aliljet> the walletnotification will trigger something that I want
2060 2013-03-24 16:42:00 <Scrat> Luke-Jr: also wise to check for http 200 on that curl - if not, append the txid in a file
2061 2013-03-24 16:42:14 ripshy has joined
2062 2013-03-24 16:42:14 <aliljet> that's incredibly handy
2063 2013-03-24 16:42:17 JudeA has joined
2064 2013-03-24 16:42:32 <aliljet> and it'll pass back a txid I can check for
2065 2013-03-24 16:42:39 <JudeA> I am looking for a coder for a new Bitcoin website I would like to start.
2066 2013-03-24 16:42:44 <Scrat> so really you might have to run a shell along with curl
2067 2013-03-24 16:42:52 <aliljet> that's okay
2068 2013-03-24 16:42:52 <Scrat> not sure if it's DoSable easily
2069 2013-03-24 16:42:56 <gmaxwell> lol 2013-03-24 16:20:51 Flushed wallet.dat 3778ms
2070 2013-03-24 16:43:11 <JudeA> If you have experience in the design/coding area and like money please PM me.
2071 2013-03-24 16:43:15 <aliljet> ugh, okay, I have to run -- you guys are awesome.
2072 2013-03-24 16:43:21 <aliljet> +1 nice devs.
2073 2013-03-24 16:43:42 FredEE has quit (Client Quit)
2074 2013-03-24 16:44:29 <JudeA> I just need a simple text based game coded.
2075 2013-03-24 16:44:35 <JudeA> Anyone?
2076 2013-03-24 16:44:37 <JudeA> lol
2077 2013-03-24 16:44:55 <gmaxwell> JudeA: wrong channel.
2078 2013-03-24 16:45:00 <JudeA> Oh is it?
2079 2013-03-24 16:45:26 FredEE has joined
2080 2013-03-24 16:45:27 <JudeA> Sorry, I figured since it was a developer channel I would have some luck, but I suppose that only pertains to Bitcoin.
2081 2013-03-24 16:45:39 <gmaxwell> Right. Sorry.
2082 2013-03-24 16:45:43 <JudeA> It is a Bitcoin based site that I want made, lol.
2083 2013-03-24 16:45:51 <sipa> JudeA: this is mostly about development _of_ bitcoin
2084 2013-03-24 16:45:51 <JudeA> Where should I look?
2085 2013-03-24 16:45:59 <Luke-Jr> JudeA: #bitcoin-otc maybe
2086 2013-03-24 16:46:12 <JudeA> Gotcha, thank you.
2087 2013-03-24 16:46:14 ripshy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2088 2013-03-24 16:47:20 user_corrupt has joined
2089 2013-03-24 16:48:43 <jgarzik> sipa: I like the per-message send buffer
2090 2013-03-24 16:49:06 Smooblush has joined
2091 2013-03-24 16:49:15 Raccoon has joined
2092 2013-03-24 16:49:35 Smooblush has quit (Client Quit)
2093 2013-03-24 16:50:24 <sipa> jgarzik: it's running now on bitcoin.sipa.be - i'm going to do a full chain sync here from it, to see how it behaves
2094 2013-03-24 16:50:50 Smooblush has joined
2095 2013-03-24 16:51:35 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'm running it on my HS node in valgrind.. going to try syncing with another copy of it from that node.
2096 2013-03-24 16:53:15 <sipa> gmaxwell: nice
2097 2013-03-24 16:53:19 kerum has joined
2098 2013-03-24 16:54:29 <sipa> jgarzik, gmaxwell: it's nearly saturating my downlink :o
2099 2013-03-24 16:55:06 <gmaxwell> sipa: your downlink#@1@$@#@
2100 2013-03-24 16:55:10 <gmaxwell> fantastic!
2101 2013-03-24 16:56:51 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
2102 2013-03-24 16:57:22 <sipa> memory usage increasing though... 457 MiB RES on the server side now
2103 2013-03-24 16:57:26 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
2104 2013-03-24 16:57:38 kerum has quit (Client Quit)
2105 2013-03-24 16:59:56 Ant0 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2106 2013-03-24 17:00:38 orblivion has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2107 2013-03-24 17:00:44 <BlueMatt> sipa: udp is?
2108 2013-03-24 17:01:00 <sipa> BlueMatt: user datagram protocol?
2109 2013-03-24 17:01:01 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
2110 2013-03-24 17:01:14 <BlueMatt> <sipa> jgarzik, gmaxwell: it's nearly saturating my downlink :o
2111 2013-03-24 17:01:18 orblivion has joined
2112 2013-03-24 17:01:22 Smooblush has quit (Quit: See you later.)
2113 2013-03-24 17:01:27 <BlueMatt> oops, probably shouldnt have tagged everyone in that one...
2114 2013-03-24 17:01:29 <sipa> BlueMatt: oh, #2409
2115 2013-03-24 17:01:32 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: no, we're talking about the network buffering fixes.
2116 2013-03-24 17:01:32 <SomeoneWeird> lol
2117 2013-03-24 17:02:02 <sipa> BlueMatt: i didn't assume you didn't know what UDP was, btw, just had no clue what you were asking :)
2118 2013-03-24 17:02:04 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'm surprised to hear that it isn't reducing memory usage.
2119 2013-03-24 17:02:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: i think it is
2120 2013-03-24 17:02:34 <BlueMatt> heh, ok using udp seemed strange to be improving download that much...
2121 2013-03-24 17:02:35 <gmaxwell> ;;bc,blocks
2122 2013-03-24 17:02:36 <gribble> 227840
2123 2013-03-24 17:02:44 <sipa> iirc i've seen RES >900 on my server recently
2124 2013-03-24 17:02:52 <sipa> but that was after weeks of uptime
2125 2013-03-24 17:02:55 <sipa> so hard to compare
2126 2013-03-24 17:03:20 <BlueMatt> my res is currently >1G
2127 2013-03-24 17:03:24 <gmaxwell> sipa: ah, for some reason I thought you were saying that you were seeing >400mb res with only a single connection.
2128 2013-03-24 17:03:24 <BlueMatt> 1124148
2129 2013-03-24 17:03:26 <sipa> 437 now, so it doesn't seem to consistently grouw
2130 2013-03-24 17:03:47 zoinky has joined
2131 2013-03-24 17:04:02 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2132 2013-03-24 17:04:12 <gmaxwell> sipa: has it improved virt at all?
2133 2013-03-24 17:04:54 <sipa> gmaxwell: 1.4G... so, no, i guess
2134 2013-03-24 17:05:03 <gmaxwell> (I had believed the buffer handling code was one of our fragmentation sources, but I never did anything to check)
2135 2013-03-24 17:05:11 da2ce7 has joined
2136 2013-03-24 17:05:15 Ant0 has joined
2137 2013-03-24 17:05:27 Smooblush has joined
2138 2013-03-24 17:06:04 <gmaxwell> I believe we've started to see some complaints about running out of address space.
2139 2013-03-24 17:06:13 <sipa> that'd be expected on 32-bit
2140 2013-03-24 17:06:28 <Diablo-D3> heh man
2141 2013-03-24 17:06:36 <Diablo-D3> I've been fighting how to deal with that on some code I'm writing
2142 2013-03-24 17:06:40 <Diablo-D3> I fucking hate 32 bit
2143 2013-03-24 17:07:09 * sipa gives Diablo-D3 a 16-bit platform with nearptr and farptr
2144 2013-03-24 17:07:28 <Diablo-D3> sipa: surprisingly, thats not how too different than I was handling this at one point
2145 2013-03-24 17:07:56 <sipa> heh, RES down to 376MB
2146 2013-03-24 17:08:10 da2ce7_d has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2147 2013-03-24 17:08:18 <Diablo-D3> I love 64 bit though
2148 2013-03-24 17:08:23 <sipa> and still streaming block data at >60 Mbit
2149 2013-03-24 17:08:25 <Diablo-D3> you know how I start the thing Im working on?
2150 2013-03-24 17:08:50 <Diablo-D3> mmap anon 1UL<<35
2151 2013-03-24 17:09:10 <sipa> 32G ought to be enough for everyone
2152 2013-03-24 17:09:18 <Diablo-D3> well, its the maximum you can do on windows
2153 2013-03-24 17:09:32 <sipa> my condolences
2154 2013-03-24 17:09:35 <Diablo-D3> although depends on the windows
2155 2013-03-24 17:09:43 <Diablo-D3> newer ones actually can boot on more than 32
2156 2013-03-24 17:09:53 <Diablo-D3> linux, bsd, and osx are all essentially unlimited
2157 2013-03-24 17:10:08 LacLeman has joined
2158 2013-03-24 17:10:10 bitcoin-dev428 has joined
2159 2013-03-24 17:10:16 <bitcoin-dev428> alonso.javier.15
2160 2013-03-24 17:10:26 <bitcoin-dev428> ^^ owes me btc
2161 2013-03-24 17:10:34 <gmaxwell> bitcoin-dev428: wrong channel.
2162 2013-03-24 17:10:38 <CodeShark> 67 blocks away from BIP0034 :)
2163 2013-03-24 17:10:42 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin-dev428: good for you, this is the wrong channel for that
2164 2013-03-24 17:10:59 <bitcoin-dev428> Supposed he could be here said he used the #devcoin irc
2165 2013-03-24 17:11:00 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: what was the last v1 block?
2166 2013-03-24 17:11:02 <bitcoin-dev428> ever hear of him?
2167 2013-03-24 17:11:15 <Diablo-D3> bitcoin-dev428: this isn't #devcoin
2168 2013-03-24 17:11:21 <bitcoin-dev428> ok
2169 2013-03-24 17:11:30 <gmaxwell> bitcoin-dev428: This isn't #devcoin, #devcoin is #devcoin. Try there? I've never heard of him.
2170 2013-03-24 17:11:32 <bitcoin-dev428> appolgies
2171 2013-03-24 17:11:35 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: block height 227835
2172 2013-03-24 17:11:41 <bitcoin-dev428> thanks <3
2173 2013-03-24 17:11:49 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
2174 2013-03-24 17:11:49 <gribble> 227841
2175 2013-03-24 17:11:55 bitcoin-dev428 has quit (Client Quit)
2176 2013-03-24 17:12:03 <CodeShark> 00000000000001aa077d7aa84c532a4d69bdbff519609d1da0835261b7a74eb6
2177 2013-03-24 17:12:48 ripshy has joined
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2179 2013-03-24 17:14:04 <gmaxwell> an odd thing about the window based trigger is that you could have the rate of v2 blocks suddenly drop, and still switch, so long as its expiring old v1s out of the back of the window faster than new v1s come in.
2180 2013-03-24 17:14:24 <sipa> gmaxwell: we should have implemented a PID controller!
2181 2013-03-24 17:14:47 <CodeShark> as long as > 95% of incoming blocks are v2, eventually the point of no return is reached
2182 2013-03-24 17:14:54 <sipa> instead of this Schmitt trigger
2183 2013-03-24 17:15:03 <gmaxwell> Yea... well, a second 'consecutive N' to function as a P might be nice. Oh well. :)
2184 2013-03-24 17:15:33 <sipa> gmaxwell: makes sense, yes, except that means you're also giving an easy veto
2185 2013-03-24 17:15:41 <sipa> (which may be wanted)
2186 2013-03-24 17:15:51 <gmaxwell> So long as N isn't too great it's not that much of a veto.
2187 2013-03-24 17:17:04 ripshy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2188 2013-03-24 17:17:43 zooko has joined
2189 2013-03-24 17:19:56 <CodeShark> the last few v1 blocks by descending height: 227835, 227675, 227621, 227581, 227564
2190 2013-03-24 17:20:01 <gmaxwell> 95% is also a effective veto by itself, once you have participants with >>5% weight.
2191 2013-03-24 17:20:24 iddo has joined
2192 2013-03-24 17:20:40 <gmaxwell> (a fun aside: http://homepages.warwick.ac.uk/~ecaae/ is interesting for computing the power of voters to block action in weighed elections with different thresholds)
2193 2013-03-24 17:23:02 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2194 2013-03-24 17:24:59 Smooblush has quit (Quit: See you later.)
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2199 2013-03-24 17:28:08 <CodeShark> the v1 height deltas for the last several v1 blocks: 160, 54, 40, 17, 15, 8, 4, 24, 57, 56, 10, 6, 7, 16, 13, 22, 2
2200 2013-03-24 17:28:19 Insu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2201 2013-03-24 17:28:58 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
2202 2013-03-24 17:28:58 <gribble> 227842
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2204 2013-03-24 17:30:20 <CodeShark> it certainly looks like not many are trying to veto :)
2205 2013-03-24 17:31:28 <CodeShark> at least not anymore
2206 2013-03-24 17:31:57 <sipa> it seems the "oh, v2 enforcement is near, i don't want to be left behind" idea worked as a self-fulfilling profecy
2207 2013-03-24 17:32:15 <Luke-Jr> BTC Warp is still fighting with it :p
2208 2013-03-24 17:33:11 zooko has joined
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2222 2013-03-24 17:46:41 <sipa> TD: try #2409
2223 2013-03-24 17:48:16 tg has joined
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2225 2013-03-24 17:48:26 Nothing4You has joined
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2227 2013-03-24 17:49:18 <TD> sipa: am doing
2228 2013-03-24 17:53:05 kadoban has joined
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2232 2013-03-24 17:54:54 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
2233 2013-03-24 17:54:55 <bitcoin-dev330> alonso.javier.15?
2234 2013-03-24 17:55:13 <SomeoneWeird> bitcoin-dev330, ...
2235 2013-03-24 17:55:20 Ant0 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2236 2013-03-24 17:55:24 <SomeoneWeird> this is.. still.. #bitcoin-dev
2237 2013-03-24 17:55:36 <bitcoin-dev330> Lookin for that peson
2238 2013-03-24 17:55:37 Nothing4You has left ()
2239 2013-03-24 17:55:37 Nothing4You has joined
2240 2013-03-24 17:55:38 <bitcoin-dev330> person*
2241 2013-03-24 17:55:48 <bitcoin-dev330> Owes me some BTC
2242 2013-03-24 17:55:50 <SomeoneWeird> <bitcoin-dev428> Supposed he could be here said he used the #devcoin irc
2243 2013-03-24 17:55:58 <SomeoneWeird> and this isn't #devcoin
2244 2013-03-24 17:56:01 <bitcoin-dev330> he's about 12hours late on the loan wanna see if I can hunt him down
2245 2013-03-24 17:56:33 <bitcoin-dev330> I have a post running on Bitcoin talk
2246 2013-03-24 17:56:35 <sipa> bitcoin-dev330: take it elsewhere
2247 2013-03-24 17:56:37 <bitcoin-dev330> Limie is me
2248 2013-03-24 17:56:44 fishfish has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2249 2013-03-24 17:56:46 <SomeoneWeird> yeah, this is offtopic here
2250 2013-03-24 17:56:49 <bitcoin-dev330> yeh sorry don't mean to bother anyone
2251 2013-03-24 17:56:57 <bitcoin-dev330> just lookin aaround
2252 2013-03-24 17:57:12 <CodeShark> try the #rent-a-hitman channel
2253 2013-03-24 17:57:23 <SomeoneWeird> #bitcoin-offtopic
2254 2013-03-24 17:57:44 <bitcoin-dev330> Nice lead CodeShark
2255 2013-03-24 17:57:46 <bitcoin-dev330> thank you
2256 2013-03-24 17:58:59 Conflict has quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
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2287 2013-03-24 18:25:08 <EvilPete> Bah, one more v1 block turned up. 81 to go now till v2 supermajority
2288 2013-03-24 18:25:39 Lolcust has joined
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2294 2013-03-24 18:29:06 <[\\\]> whose was it?
2295 2013-03-24 18:29:15 Smooblush has joined
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2300 2013-03-24 18:33:51 <CodeShark> another v1 block and it will go up to 101 more to go
2301 2013-03-24 18:33:54 Smooblush has joined
2302 2013-03-24 18:34:09 <CodeShark> two more v1 blocks and it will go up to 104 to go
2303 2013-03-24 18:35:47 <EvilPete> CodeShark: yeah, I shouldn't write anything before coffee. 101 if no more
2304 2013-03-24 18:38:56 iddo has joined
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2310 2013-03-24 18:51:16 <Scrat> sipa: I know it's an approximation, but do you have the exact number for the current value of http://bitcoin.sipa.be/hashes-lin.png somewhere on your website?
2311 2013-03-24 18:52:47 iddo has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2312 2013-03-24 18:52:56 <Scrat> not quite 2^70 yet, I thought we had passed it
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2331 2013-03-24 19:34:26 qwertyoruiop is now known as zz_qwertyoruiop
2332 2013-03-24 19:36:31 Silox has joined
2333 2013-03-24 19:36:33 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|Hello there. I'm trying to run a local bitcoin server, but when I want to connect my cgminer to it, it exists with the error "HTTP request failed: The requested URL returned error: 500 Internal Server Error"
2334 2013-03-24 19:38:06 InsuDra is now known as Insu
2335 2013-03-24 19:38:34 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|How can I fix that? o_o
2336 2013-03-24 19:39:22 <warren> Silox|: did you add "server=1" to bitcoin.conf? also make sure you are connecting to the correct port
2337 2013-03-24 19:39:23 <CodeShark> first of all, test your bitcoin server installation using a command line tool like "curl" before attempting to connect any other software to it
2338 2013-03-24 19:39:32 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|warren: Yeah I did
2339 2013-03-24 19:39:38 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|And I can curl to it
2340 2013-03-24 19:40:01 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|{"result":{"version":80100,"protocolversion":70001,"walletversion":60000,"balance":0.00000000,"blocks":165301,"connections":8,"proxy":"","difficulty":1307728.36060407,"testnet":false,"keypoololdest":1364144664,"keypoolsize":100,"paytxfee":0.00000000,"unlocked_until":0,"errors":""},"error":null,"id":"curltest"}
2341 2013-03-24 19:40:06 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|^ response
2342 2013-03-24 19:40:23 zz_qwertyoruiop is now known as qwertyoruiop
2343 2013-03-24 19:40:26 pale_fire has quit (Quit: pale_fire)
2344 2013-03-24 19:40:51 <CodeShark> is there any way you can look at the exact contents of the HTTP request?
2345 2013-03-24 19:41:11 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|Wireshark prolly
2346 2013-03-24 19:41:17 <ryan-c> how does one pass an array to bitcoind when using it on the command line?
2347 2013-03-24 19:41:38 <jeewee> can i enumerate over all global transactions with bitcoind?
2348 2013-03-24 19:41:40 <CodeShark> ryan-c: put the array inside quotes
2349 2013-03-24 19:42:04 <ryan-c> CodeShark: what's the format look like?
2350 2013-03-24 19:42:08 <CodeShark> i.e. '["value1", "value2", ...]'
2351 2013-03-24 19:42:36 <ryan-c> that is not working
2352 2013-03-24 19:42:45 <ryan-c> I am trying to use lockunspent if that helps...
2353 2013-03-24 19:42:50 <CodeShark> can you be more specific about the error?
2354 2013-03-24 19:43:05 <ryan-c> okay
2355 2013-03-24 19:43:07 <ryan-c> i got it
2356 2013-03-24 19:43:27 <ryan-c> I needed '[{"txid": "......", "vout", 0}]'
2357 2013-03-24 19:43:32 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|CodeShark: I get a bunch of tcp syns and acks
2358 2013-03-24 19:43:53 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|The stream looks like: {"id": 1, "method": "mining.subscribe", "params": ["cgminer/2.11.3"]}
2359 2013-03-24 19:44:13 <CodeShark> can you try sending the same request via curl?
2360 2013-03-24 19:44:15 LainZ has joined
2361 2013-03-24 19:44:18 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|Oh wait, the first one is: {"result":null,"error":{"code":-10,"message":"Bitcoin is downloading blocks..."},"id":0}
2362 2013-03-24 19:44:56 <CodeShark> oh
2363 2013-03-24 19:45:07 <CodeShark> then you probably need to wait until it syncs
2364 2013-03-24 19:45:09 <CodeShark> :)
2365 2013-03-24 19:45:11 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|Ah, ok :3
2366 2013-03-24 19:45:19 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|Well... Cgminer could just say that then >< :P
2367 2013-03-24 19:45:38 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|But thanks for the help, I'll keep you posted when it's done syncing :)
2368 2013-03-24 19:45:46 <CodeShark> good luck! :)
2369 2013-03-24 19:45:48 <Luke-Jr> cgminer doesn't support solo mining
2370 2013-03-24 19:45:52 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|Still 500k blocks, sigh.
2371 2013-03-24 19:45:59 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|Luke-Jr: It doesn't?
2372 2013-03-24 19:46:11 <TD> i should be a professional forum troll
2373 2013-03-24 19:46:11 <Luke-Jr> Silox|: not really. unless you're trying to gamble with ridiculously low hashrate
2374 2013-03-24 19:46:19 kerum has joined
2375 2013-03-24 19:46:24 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|Luke-Jr: I'll be mining on a solo i3 processor.
2376 2013-03-24 19:46:34 <CodeShark> testnet, I hope :)
2377 2013-03-24 19:46:38 <Luke-Jr> Silox|: lol, CPU mining isn't useful no matter *how* you do it
2378 2013-03-24 19:46:42 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|Yeah, I know
2379 2013-03-24 19:46:43 <Luke-Jr> well, for Bitcoin, right
2380 2013-03-24 19:46:49 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|I'm just testing out some stuff
2381 2013-03-24 19:47:00 <CodeShark> with testnet you will have a lot more luck than with the main network :)
2382 2013-03-24 19:47:01 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|I'll deploy it on a better system later :P
2383 2013-03-24 19:47:12 <CodeShark> or try litecoin
2384 2013-03-24 19:47:18 <Luke-Jr> Silox|: realistically these days you'd want to have an ASIC preorder already in
2385 2013-03-24 19:47:19 <SomeoneWeird> or try testnet
2386 2013-03-24 19:48:13 <sipa> Scrat: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-3D.txt
2387 2013-03-24 19:48:32 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|1.7TH, waw.
2388 2013-03-24 19:48:41 <EvilPete> Welcome to 6695826 difficulty.. yay
2389 2013-03-24 19:48:53 <kerum> diff is ok :)
2390 2013-03-24 19:49:03 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|How much does an ASIC costs?
2391 2013-03-24 19:49:09 <sipa> ;;bc,nethash
2392 2013-03-24 19:49:15 <kerum> depends
2393 2013-03-24 19:49:17 <gribble> 56027.944670415091
2394 2013-03-24 19:49:17 <CodeShark> I came into bitcoin WAAAAY too late for mining to even be something worth attempting
2395 2013-03-24 19:51:22 Bwild has quit (Quit: leaving)
2396 2013-03-24 19:51:49 <zoinky> nahhh
2397 2013-03-24 19:51:58 <zoinky> people just like to say that cause they mine
2398 2013-03-24 19:52:07 <CodeShark> like to say what?
2399 2013-03-24 19:52:17 <zoinky> its too late to get into mining
2400 2013-03-24 19:52:27 <CodeShark> I don't mine bitcoin
2401 2013-03-24 19:53:37 <kerum> me neither :D my fpga do though...
2402 2013-03-24 19:54:12 iddo has joined
2403 2013-03-24 19:54:28 <CodeShark> if I could mine bitcoin with some more general-purpose hardware that I could use for other stuff, it might be worth the investment for me
2404 2013-03-24 19:55:11 <CodeShark> but as it is, you need to preorder units months in advance from shady characters :p
2405 2013-03-24 19:55:21 <CodeShark> and these units aren't good for anything else
2406 2013-03-24 19:57:12 <CodeShark> by the time I get one, running it will be only barely profitable if that
2407 2013-03-24 19:57:22 <CodeShark> (assuming I actually do get it and it works)
2408 2013-03-24 19:58:00 Anastasios has joined
2409 2013-03-24 20:00:01 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
2410 2013-03-24 20:00:39 <CodeShark> there's no other area of bitcoin where the advantage of being an early adopter is as huge as in mining
2411 2013-03-24 20:01:12 <EvilPete> high risk as well.
2412 2013-03-24 20:01:25 <EvilPete> I was ready for a price hike on avalon but not quite that much
2413 2013-03-24 20:02:01 <tonikt> Hi guys. How is it possible that block #4370 has mined 52.01 BTC and the network has no problems with it?
2414 2013-03-24 20:02:41 <tonikt> Should not such a block had been rejected?
2415 2013-03-24 20:02:59 <sipa> tonikt: block #4370?
2416 2013-03-24 20:03:04 <tonikt> yes
2417 2013-03-24 20:03:10 <tonikt> https://blockchain.info/block-index/4370
2418 2013-03-24 20:03:22 metabyte has quit ()
2419 2013-03-24 20:03:27 <gonffen> EvilPete: did they announce a price for batch 3?
2420 2013-03-24 20:03:28 <CodeShark> the 2.01 are transaction fees
2421 2013-03-24 20:03:45 <CodeShark> if you read the whole table you'd see that :p
2422 2013-03-24 20:03:47 <tonikt> I'm writing my own blockchain parser - just discovered it
2423 2013-03-24 20:04:01 <sipa> tonikt: also, that's block #2817 :)
2424 2013-03-24 20:04:12 <Anastasios> I have a corrupt wallet.dat. How do I fix it? bitcoinqt says "wallet.dat corrupt, salvage failed"
2425 2013-03-24 20:04:20 normanrichards has joined
2426 2013-03-24 20:04:21 <CodeShark> yeah, 4370 is just blockchain.info's own internal indexing
2427 2013-03-24 20:04:26 <CodeShark> it doesn't mean anything outside of that
2428 2013-03-24 20:04:54 <tonikt> No - I don't think it's the fees
2429 2013-03-24 20:04:58 <sipa> tonikt: it is
2430 2013-03-24 20:05:04 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2431 2013-03-24 20:05:06 <sipa> tonikt: that block has 2.01 BTC of fees
2432 2013-03-24 20:05:20 <sipa> (blockchain.info even says so explicitly)
2433 2013-03-24 20:05:21 <tonikt> ok, then let me check
2434 2013-03-24 20:05:22 <CodeShark> Anastasios: if you backed up the wallet, just delete the wallet.dat file, copy the backup, and restart
2435 2013-03-24 20:05:37 <Anastasios> codeshark, same thing happens
2436 2013-03-24 20:05:39 kerum has quit (Quit: ---Smoke and Mirrors----)
2437 2013-03-24 20:05:54 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2438 2013-03-24 20:05:55 <CodeShark> then the backup is also corrupt probably
2439 2013-03-24 20:06:17 <sipa> try -salvagewallet
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2443 2013-03-24 20:07:15 <CodeShark> tonikt: to refer to specific blocks, use either the block height or the block hash - don't use the blockchain.info internal indexing because nobody will know what you're talking about
2444 2013-03-24 20:07:34 nx201 has joined
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2447 2013-03-24 20:08:20 <Anastasios> sipa, newb question, how do I do that?
2448 2013-03-24 20:08:27 <Anastasios> in terminal?
2449 2013-03-24 20:08:31 <tonikt> OK, guys. Once again: the block with hash 00000000d50a3cd05e451166e5f618c76cc3273104608fe424835ae5c0d47db9
2450 2013-03-24 20:08:36 <sipa> Anastasios: you start it with -salvagewallet on the command line
2451 2013-03-24 20:08:50 <CodeShark> tonikt: your question has been answered - what don't you understand?
2452 2013-03-24 20:08:51 <tonikt> ... has a transaction id: e958faf790304fc4185b377552e93fddae3a513c255f8bb09526b5886ab83936
2453 2013-03-24 20:08:58 <Anastasios> whats the command for bitcoin-qt?
2454 2013-03-24 20:09:09 <tonikt> CodeShark, it is not the fees
2455 2013-03-24 20:09:10 <sipa> Anastasios: bitcoin-qt
2456 2013-03-24 20:09:11 <EvilPete> gonffen: I was just going on that translation.. they've said 88btc, but also given a price in yuan that works out to 5099 USD
2457 2013-03-24 20:09:18 <CodeShark> tonikt: what is not the fees?
2458 2013-03-24 20:09:21 <sipa> tonikt: how do you mean it's not the fees?
2459 2013-03-24 20:09:25 <tonikt> the extra 2.01 BTC
2460 2013-03-24 20:09:25 TheButterZone has joined
2461 2013-03-24 20:09:33 <CodeShark> tonikt: it most certainly is the fees
2462 2013-03-24 20:09:42 <sipa> tonikt: the coinbase can claim the subsidy (50 BTC here) plus all fees of other transactions in the block
2463 2013-03-24 20:09:43 <Ry4an> tonikt: when you say you're "writing my own blockchain parser" you mean the actual blockchain, not something that parses the blockchain.info website, right? Because people have scraped that website before and it was a bad idea then too.
2464 2013-03-24 20:09:47 <tonikt> look at this transaction - its the raw hex dump:
2465 2013-03-24 20:09:52 <tonikt> 01000000010000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000ffffffff0804ffff001d024606ffffffff0140f600360100000043410479ecd6e117cf7333f1dfd2b02cb44d3b658a7e52ebcb722d30a268d0ad1cf15b0820b4a8e936001ea752cf1cd266b6716de974765761e1ff9b683a1038e5924cac00000000
2466 2013-03-24 20:09:52 nx201 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2467 2013-03-24 20:09:53 TheButterZone has left ()
2468 2013-03-24 20:10:00 <sipa> tonikt: the hex dump has nothing to do with it
2469 2013-03-24 20:10:01 <Anastasios> im in the folder, it says "bitcoin-qt: command not found"
2470 2013-03-24 20:10:07 <sipa> Anastasios: what OS?
2471 2013-03-24 20:10:34 <sipa> tonikt: please understand the bitcoin protocol before you implement a blockchain parser
2472 2013-03-24 20:10:35 <tonikt> oh, ok - I understand now
2473 2013-03-24 20:10:39 <Anastasios> sipa ubuntu
2474 2013-03-24 20:10:42 <CodeShark> Anastasios, you can add the following line to your bitcoin.conf file
2475 2013-03-24 20:10:45 <CodeShark> salvagewallet=1
2476 2013-03-24 20:10:49 <gonffen> EvilPete: ouch. they did say it would be ROI related but that seems a bit harsh. That said, I don't know why they aren't operating things themselves.
2477 2013-03-24 20:10:49 <sipa> Anastasios: ./bitcoin-qt -salvagewallet
2478 2013-03-24 20:11:00 <CodeShark> or you can launch it from the command line as sipa says
2479 2013-03-24 20:11:09 <CodeShark> if you do it the first way, remove that line afterwards
2480 2013-03-24 20:11:30 <tonikt> I had though that the unspent cons are explicitly sent to the first output, but now I figured that they need to be added to the actual mined amount - right
2481 2013-03-24 20:11:31 <tonikt> ?
2482 2013-03-24 20:11:44 <CodeShark> huh?!?!
2483 2013-03-24 20:11:53 <EvilPete> gonffen: the actual post and translation is at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=155345.0
2484 2013-03-24 20:12:03 <gonffen> EvilPete: thank you sir
2485 2013-03-24 20:12:34 <CodeShark> tonikt: please read satoshi's paper and review https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification and https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_rules then come and ask questions :)
2486 2013-03-24 20:13:02 <tonikt> CodeShark, and they you will know how to answer my question? :)
2487 2013-03-24 20:13:07 <Anastasios> salvagewallet removes the wallet and creates a .bak
2488 2013-03-24 20:13:15 kerum has joined
2489 2013-03-24 20:13:19 <CodeShark> tonikt: it just seems like you're missing many of the basics
2490 2013-03-24 20:13:31 <CodeShark> tonikt: so even if we answer you're still not going to get the real picture
2491 2013-03-24 20:13:39 normanrichards has quit ()
2492 2013-03-24 20:14:10 metabyte has quit ()
2493 2013-03-24 20:14:18 <Anastasios> nothing happens after that though
2494 2013-03-24 20:14:23 <Anastasios> what do I do with the .bak file?
2495 2013-03-24 20:14:43 space_cadet has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2496 2013-03-24 20:14:44 <tonikt> CodeShark, I read the paper and I would never think that the "Value" filed of the mining transaction was allowed to be different from 50, 25, 12.5, etc..
2497 2013-03-24 20:14:46 idstam has joined
2498 2013-03-24 20:14:55 space_cadet has joined
2499 2013-03-24 20:14:56 <tonikt> ... and in this specific block the value is 52.01 BTC
2500 2013-03-24 20:15:26 <gmaxwell> tonikt: If you're going to agressively ignore what everyone in here tells you, you are never going to learn.
2501 2013-03-24 20:15:32 <CodeShark> tonikt: section 6. Incentive, second paragraph
2502 2013-03-24 20:15:36 <CodeShark> it's right there
2503 2013-03-24 20:15:49 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2504 2013-03-24 20:15:53 jdnavarro has joined
2505 2013-03-24 20:16:02 <CodeShark> If the output value of a transaction is less than its input value, the difference is a transaction fee that is added to the incentive value of the block containing the transaction.
2506 2013-03-24 20:16:06 metabyte has joined
2507 2013-03-24 20:16:27 <gmaxwell> And, in fact the paper never mentions 50 or the geometric decline.
2508 2013-03-24 20:16:48 <gonffen> EvilPete: just my two cents: it doesn't sound *that bad* if you have a bunch of BTC you acquired on the cheap around :/
2509 2013-03-24 20:17:34 _g has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2510 2013-03-24 20:17:50 giusepp__ has joined
2511 2013-03-24 20:18:11 <tonikt> OK, thanks guys. I think I understand it now, how it should work
2512 2013-03-24 20:18:53 <Anastasios> so salvagewallet doesnt really do anything?
2513 2013-03-24 20:18:58 <tonikt> and sorry :)
2514 2013-03-24 20:19:25 adij has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2515 2013-03-24 20:19:41 <sipa> Anastasios: it... should do more
2516 2013-03-24 20:19:44 <gmaxwell> Anastasios: It does but it doesn't try especially hard.
2517 2013-03-24 20:19:54 <gmaxwell> one sec, I'll post a patch I have here.
2518 2013-03-24 20:19:58 <TD> memory usage is creeping up again :(
2519 2013-03-24 20:20:04 <TD> yet i never have more than 30 peers
2520 2013-03-24 20:20:06 <Anastasios> if thats all I can do for this corrupt wallet
2521 2013-03-24 20:20:15 user_corrupt has quit (Quit: user_corrupt)
2522 2013-03-24 20:20:16 <gmaxwell> Anastasios: nah, it's not all you can do.
2523 2013-03-24 20:20:28 <Anastasios> there must be more ways
2524 2013-03-24 20:20:32 <Anastasios> for some reason my bitcoin-qt crashed
2525 2013-03-24 20:20:32 <CodeShark> pull out the hex editor? :)
2526 2013-03-24 20:20:47 <Anastasios> had to redownload the blockchain cause it couldnt read it
2527 2013-03-24 20:20:54 Bwild has joined
2528 2013-03-24 20:20:55 <Anastasios> then it couldnt read the wallet
2529 2013-03-24 20:21:05 <sipa> Anastasios: huH? which version are you running?
2530 2013-03-24 20:21:16 <sipa> wallet and blockchain are completely separate now
2531 2013-03-24 20:21:21 <TD> in the space of just 1 hour it went from 379mb rss to 505 with the same number of connections
2532 2013-03-24 20:21:34 <sipa> TD: yeah, seems to be going up here as well
2533 2013-03-24 20:21:48 <Anastasios> sipa, I upgraded to 0.8.1 and got problems
2534 2013-03-24 20:22:23 <sipa> Anastasios: anyway, a problem with the wallet doesn't mean you need to redownload the chain
2535 2013-03-24 20:22:42 <CodeShark> perhaps you have hardware issues? :)
2536 2013-03-24 20:22:44 <Anastasios> well bitcoinqt first said it couldnt read the blockchain
2537 2013-03-24 20:22:47 <CodeShark> bad disk sectors?
2538 2013-03-24 20:22:57 <Anastasios> codeshark, makes no sense, everything works fine
2539 2013-03-24 20:23:04 <Anastasios> not even an old hd...
2540 2013-03-24 20:23:04 <sipa> Anastasios: what did it say precisely?
2541 2013-03-24 20:23:10 <Anastasios> sipa, cant remember
2542 2013-03-24 20:23:30 B0g4r7 has joined
2543 2013-03-24 20:23:37 <CodeShark> do you have the debug.log file?
2544 2013-03-24 20:23:48 <EvilPete> gonffen: yeah, but I don't have the btc, only cash, and I don't see a way to solve that in time assuming they open orders in the next day or two.
2545 2013-03-24 20:24:00 <EvilPete> gonffen: enough btc that is.
2546 2013-03-24 20:24:11 pale_fire has joined
2547 2013-03-24 20:24:13 balrog has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2548 2013-03-24 20:24:17 <gmaxwell> Does the pull tester produce win32 binaries? If so https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2410 should help.
2549 2013-03-24 20:24:25 <Anastasios> anyway, now its downloading the blockchain, 76k blocks left... it has converted the wallet.dat to wallet.(timestamp).bak and made a new wallet.dat
2550 2013-03-24 20:24:48 <Anastasios> will it do anything else, like try to recover from the .bak or something?
2551 2013-03-24 20:24:56 ripshy has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2552 2013-03-24 20:25:04 <Anastasios> codeshark, no unfortunately i deleted it all, including blockchain files etc
2553 2013-03-24 20:25:05 <Anastasios> lol
2554 2013-03-24 20:25:18 <gbg> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1axfmg/retrominer_bitcoin_mining_on_an_nes/
2555 2013-03-24 20:25:49 ielo has joined
2556 2013-03-24 20:26:01 <Anastasios> any official site where i can download the blockchain?
2557 2013-03-24 20:27:13 balrog has joined
2558 2013-03-24 20:27:45 ThomasV_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2559 2013-03-24 20:27:48 <nanotube> Anastasios: see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145386.0
2560 2013-03-24 20:29:03 <Luke-Jr> Anastasios: also note that bitcoin is decentralized, so there is no such thing as official
2561 2013-03-24 20:29:21 <Luke-Jr> Anastasios: and 0.8.1 should download the blockchain as fast as your system can handle it anyway
2562 2013-03-24 20:29:27 TAiS46 has joined
2563 2013-03-24 20:29:36 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i wish that were true :D
2564 2013-03-24 20:30:24 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: if you get lucky with peers its pretty quick.
2565 2013-03-24 20:30:27 agricocb has joined
2566 2013-03-24 20:30:36 <CodeShark> sequence of number of blocks needed to remove v1 blocks from the last 1000: 2, 4, 8, 14, 17, 41, 43, 52, 62, 66, 70, 91, 94, 100
2567 2013-03-24 20:30:37 <gmaxwell> but still slower than loadblocks
2568 2013-03-24 20:30:54 <CodeShark> 12 more v1 blocks need to be removed from last 1000 to reach 950 v2
2569 2013-03-24 20:31:30 <CodeShark> so after 2 blocks, we only need to remove 11 more. after 4 blocks, we need to remove 10 more, etc...
2570 2013-03-24 20:31:54 zoinky has joined
2571 2013-03-24 20:32:04 jeef has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2572 2013-03-24 20:32:41 <CodeShark> so assuming no more v1 blocks, we should reach 950 in 66 more blocks
2573 2013-03-24 20:32:47 <CodeShark> and a new block just arrived
2574 2013-03-24 20:32:51 <CodeShark> so subtract one from each in the list :)
2575 2013-03-24 20:32:57 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: a conspiracy: http://oeis.org/search?q=2%2C+4%2C+8%2C+14%2C+17&sort=&language=english&go=Search
2576 2013-03-24 20:33:20 <CodeShark> lol - I love that site :)
2577 2013-03-24 20:33:44 <gmaxwell> saved my butt a number of times making weird connections.
2578 2013-03-24 20:33:48 jeef has joined
2579 2013-03-24 20:34:31 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2580 2013-03-24 20:35:21 <CodeShark> or oops, sorry, miscounted - we should reach 950 in 68 blocks - but a new one just arrived
2581 2013-03-24 20:35:44 <CodeShark> scratch the first one off the list and subtract 2 from the rest :)
2582 2013-03-24 20:35:55 <CodeShark> 11 more v1's to remove
2583 2013-03-24 20:36:14 jav__ has joined
2584 2013-03-24 20:37:18 joh______ has joined
2585 2013-03-24 20:39:34 enikanorov has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2586 2013-03-24 20:39:42 madmac2501 has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2587 2013-03-24 20:41:49 <CodeShark> (1,2), (2,6), (3,12), (3,15), (5,39), (6,41), (7,50), (8,53), (9,60), (10,64), (11,68), (12,89), (13,92), (14,98), (15,109)
2588 2013-03-24 20:44:16 <CodeShark> oops, (4,15) :p
2589 2013-03-24 20:44:54 <Anastasios> this cant be true
2590 2013-03-24 20:44:58 ripshy has joined
2591 2013-03-24 20:45:01 <Anastasios> first, bitcoinqt corrupts my wallet
2592 2013-03-24 20:45:14 <Anastasios> probably uses my own coins to bribe the corrupt consuls inside
2593 2013-03-24 20:45:23 <Anastasios> then, it wont even recover it with -salvagewallet
2594 2013-03-24 20:45:40 <Anastasios> ill find satoshi myself if this doesnt get fixed
2595 2013-03-24 20:45:45 <CodeShark> make frequent backups ALWAYS
2596 2013-03-24 20:45:49 <Anastasios> that wallet had over 250 coins
2597 2013-03-24 20:45:52 giusepp__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2598 2013-03-24 20:46:02 <sipa> Anastasios: and it's very unlikely they are lost
2599 2013-03-24 20:46:10 <Anastasios> i dont think theyre lost either
2600 2013-03-24 20:46:17 <sipa> but automatic recovery is hard
2601 2013-03-24 20:46:20 <CodeShark> they are only lost if you cannot salvage the private keys
2602 2013-03-24 20:46:29 <CodeShark> which might be possible to do with a hex editor
2603 2013-03-24 20:46:34 <Anastasios> the previous backup didnt have the new keys unfortunately
2604 2013-03-24 20:46:43 <Anastasios> codeshark, what do I do in the hex editor?
2605 2013-03-24 20:46:49 <CodeShark> even if some of the private key data is jumbled, as long as most of it is there it's recoverable
2606 2013-03-24 20:46:49 <sipa> Anastasios: sure? it always has 100 keys in advance
2607 2013-03-24 20:46:56 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
2608 2013-03-24 20:47:16 <Anastasios> sipa Im sure, ive tried uploading the old backup on blockchain.info
2609 2013-03-24 20:47:20 <sipa> ok
2610 2013-03-24 20:47:27 <gmaxwell> Anastasios: I wrote an improvement to salvagewallet that may help you. It has not been built by the autobuilder yet.
2611 2013-03-24 20:47:39 <gmaxwell> Anastasios: blockchain.info does nothing with encrypted wallets.
2612 2013-03-24 20:47:48 <gmaxwell> it just fails silently even if the wallet is fine
2613 2013-03-24 20:47:58 <Anastasios> only shows the last time I sent to mtgox.
2614 2013-03-24 20:48:35 <CodeShark> Anastasios: before you do anything else, MAKE SURE TO MAKE AT LEAST TWO OTHER COPIES OF THAT WALLET AND KEEP THEM ON SEPARATE MACHINES!
2615 2013-03-24 20:48:38 <CodeShark> lol
2616 2013-03-24 20:48:50 <Anastasios> gmaxwell, with the corrupt wallet, it says "unexpected end of file from server"
2617 2013-03-24 20:48:57 <Anastasios> codeshark, is a usb stick ok?
2618 2013-03-24 20:49:03 <CodeShark> yes
2619 2013-03-24 20:49:28 <gmaxwell> Anastasios: "only shows" is fine, as sipa says, it precomputes the next 100 keys. You need to let your node catch up with the blockchain.
2620 2013-03-24 20:50:24 <Scrat> sipa: that's TH/s. I linked total hashes done
2621 2013-03-24 20:50:34 <CodeShark> I haven't really tried digging through the bdb binary format with a hex editor except once
2622 2013-03-24 20:51:07 <CodeShark> about how many keys had you received at, Anastasios?
2623 2013-03-24 20:51:39 <gmaxwell> Scrat: bitcoin logs that, work=903968438366097745760
2624 2013-03-24 20:52:00 <gmaxwell> 69.6 bits.
2625 2013-03-24 20:52:22 <sipa> we need to get f*cking rid of BDB wallets..
2626 2013-03-24 20:52:24 <gmaxwell> we should throw a party for 80 bits. I wonder how long until that happens?
2627 2013-03-24 20:52:28 <CodeShark> actually, ignore my last question
2628 2013-03-24 20:52:34 <sipa> gmaxwell: how about 72?
2629 2013-03-24 20:52:35 <Scrat> gmaxwell: oh nice that's what that is
2630 2013-03-24 20:52:55 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: that would be a 1000x increas in difficulty, wouldn't it?
2631 2013-03-24 20:53:00 ThomasV_ has joined
2632 2013-03-24 20:53:10 <ryan-c> hm
2633 2013-03-24 20:53:11 <ryan-c> wait
2634 2013-03-24 20:53:24 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: huh? no these are energy not power.
2635 2013-03-24 20:53:31 <ryan-c> oh
2636 2013-03-24 20:53:42 <Anastasios> gmaxwell, can I try your improvement for salvagewallet?
2637 2013-03-24 20:53:55 <sipa> Anastasios: can you build it yourself?
2638 2013-03-24 20:54:17 jdnavarro has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2639 2013-03-24 20:54:32 <gmaxwell> Anastasios: I recommend checking out your backup first and letting it fully sync up with it.. you may have it then. I think our automated tester will make windows binaries of that patch eventually.
2640 2013-03-24 20:54:42 <sipa> i can make a build if needed
2641 2013-03-24 20:54:45 <gmaxwell> so if your backup doesn't work when you let it completely sync you can then try that patch.
2642 2013-03-24 20:54:50 <jgarzik> "We are currently at 62 out of the latest 1000 blocks on version 1 (6.20%) and 936 out of the latest 1000 blocks on version 2 (93.60%)"
2643 2013-03-24 20:55:00 <Anastasios> "cannot initialize keypool" from bitcoinqt
2644 2013-03-24 20:55:01 <sipa> jgarzik: ETA 2 hours
2645 2013-03-24 20:55:04 <Anastasios> what does that mean?
2646 2013-03-24 20:55:04 <jgarzik> sipa, gmaxwell: how goes net patch testing?
2647 2013-03-24 20:55:21 <sipa> jgarzik: seems to work alright, but not the hoped memory usage reductions
2648 2013-03-24 20:55:23 <gmaxwell> Anastasios: thats the error I expected you to get after running with my patch there. :)
2649 2013-03-24 20:55:28 <sipa> 729 MiB here
2650 2013-03-24 20:55:48 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: still clean in valgrind here after bumping connections and doing other abusive things to it.
2651 2013-03-24 20:55:57 <gmaxwell> sipa: hm.. thats .. odd.
2652 2013-03-24 20:56:16 MiltonBerle has joined
2653 2013-03-24 20:57:02 <gmaxwell> Anastasios: how did you get that error?
2654 2013-03-24 20:57:30 <Anastasios> gmaxwell, put the corrupt wallet.dat there, and ran -salvagewallet again
2655 2013-03-24 20:57:33 <MiltonBerle> Question: Is there a rhyme or reason to which characters/integers are used in a sha256 hash? i.e. I don't see the letter z often, etc? is it always 0-9 and a-z which makes one up? for instance, this equals Milton - 8856d174978691a21f99f822bba5c8ae7fe1d25678f0e758d7be35f30bd79088 - I dont see anything after the letter f in it.
2656 2013-03-24 20:57:40 cads is now known as _M
2657 2013-03-24 20:58:07 <Anastasios> the startup of bitcoinqt, with the leather wallet etc, said "rescanning" for a long time
2658 2013-03-24 20:58:10 <Anastasios> then i got that error
2659 2013-03-24 20:58:15 <MC-Droid> f is as far as hexcode goes?
2660 2013-03-24 20:58:26 <CodeShark> MiltonBerle: it is hexadecimal
2661 2013-03-24 20:58:27 FredEE has joined
2662 2013-03-24 20:58:34 <MiltonBerle> Ok, I gotcha
2663 2013-03-24 20:58:40 <MiltonBerle> << moron
2664 2013-03-24 20:58:42 <MiltonBerle> Haha
2665 2013-03-24 20:59:12 <gmaxwell> Anastasios: where are you on the blockchain sync?
2666 2013-03-24 20:59:29 <Anastasios> 67k blocks left
2667 2013-03-24 20:59:41 <Anastasios> but i will have downloaded the bootstrap torrent within 10 min
2668 2013-03-24 20:59:47 <Anastasios> bootstrap.dat
2669 2013-03-24 21:00:20 <gmaxwell> if you have 67k blocks left the torrent won't do you much good.
2670 2013-03-24 21:01:11 normanrichards has joined
2671 2013-03-24 21:02:08 <CodeShark> 10 more v1 blocks to evict
2672 2013-03-24 21:02:39 Marcel has joined
2673 2013-03-24 21:03:34 <Anastasios> i just dont get it. the previous backup is 450kb. when i upload it to blockchains mywallet, it only goes up to transactions of late january
2674 2013-03-24 21:03:56 <Anastasios> the next backup, 499kb, is corrupt :( blockchain.infos mywallet wont take it
2675 2013-03-24 21:04:10 <gmaxwell> blockchain.info will not take encrypted wallets.
2676 2013-03-24 21:04:16 <warren> blackchain.info can import BDB wallets at all?
2677 2013-03-24 21:04:21 <gmaxwell> warren: yes. sometimes.
2678 2013-03-24 21:04:24 <sipa> Anastasios: is your wallet encrypted?
2679 2013-03-24 21:04:33 Marcel has quit (HSD!~user@router2.hsdev.com|Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2680 2013-03-24 21:04:34 <Anastasios> sipa yes, with a password
2681 2013-03-24 21:04:45 <Anastasios> or, just the standard bitcoinqt encryption
2682 2013-03-24 21:04:52 <CodeShark> I just busted out my hex editor: I see key!<binary data>key!<binary data>
2683 2013-03-24 21:04:54 <sipa> Anastasios: then that's why blockchain.info won't take it
2684 2013-03-24 21:05:07 <Anastasios> sipa, why, the old backup has the same password
2685 2013-03-24 21:05:09 <Anastasios> works just fine
2686 2013-03-24 21:05:23 <sipa> hmm
2687 2013-03-24 21:05:30 <sipa> but it misses a part, you say?
2688 2013-03-24 21:05:33 <jgarzik> sipa: RE netmessage mem usage. The lifetime of objects is sufficiently short? They are deleted immediate after send?
2689 2013-03-24 21:05:38 <gmaxwell> Anastasios: does it prompt you for the password?
2690 2013-03-24 21:05:41 <sipa> jgarzik: yes
2691 2013-03-24 21:06:10 <sipa> Anastasios: can you build gmaxwell's patch, or do you want me to build one?
2692 2013-03-24 21:06:16 safra has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2693 2013-03-24 21:06:18 <Anastasios> gmaxwell, yes
2694 2013-03-24 21:06:25 <Anastasios> sipa i dont know how to build patches
2695 2013-03-24 21:06:28 <Anastasios> id appreciate the help
2696 2013-03-24 21:06:28 <gmaxwell> Anastasios: I guess they added support for that then.
2697 2013-03-24 21:06:34 <sipa> ok, i'll do the build
2698 2013-03-24 21:06:36 <gmaxwell> sipa: I expect it's not enough for him.
2699 2013-03-24 21:06:39 <Anastasios> gmaxwell yes it prompts me for a password
2700 2013-03-24 21:06:55 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
2701 2013-03-24 21:07:12 <sipa> jgarzik: there was no guarantee in the first place that the high memory usage was caused by the network subsystem in the first place
2702 2013-03-24 21:07:14 <gmaxwell> sipa: the problem is that salvage wallet on an encrypted wallet results in a wallet without a keypool, and none can be created because its encrypted.
2703 2013-03-24 21:07:18 <CodeShark> I'm guessing the bdb format is ascii key, field size, data
2704 2013-03-24 21:07:22 <jgarzik> sipa: indeed
2705 2013-03-24 21:07:36 <jgarzik> sipa: I just don't want to make it worse, at the same time :)
2706 2013-03-24 21:07:42 <gmaxwell> sipa: so then it craps out at
2707 2013-03-24 21:07:42 <gmaxwell> if (!pwalletMain->GetKeyFromPool(newDefaultKey, false))
2708 2013-03-24 21:07:42 <gmaxwell> strErrors << _("Cannot initialize keypool") << "\n";
2709 2013-03-24 21:07:55 <sipa> CodeShark: key and value are just byte arrays
2710 2013-03-24 21:08:16 <sipa> gmaxwell: disable that part when encrypted && salvaging?
2711 2013-03-24 21:08:19 <gmaxwell> It's easy enough to disable that but there are assumptions that the DefaultKey is set all over the code.
2712 2013-03-24 21:08:25 <CodeShark> yeah, so the data is clearly visible, sipa
2713 2013-03-24 21:08:41 <sipa> gmaxwell: bleh, recovery is recovery
2714 2013-03-24 21:09:04 <sipa> gmaxwell: it'll do a keypool refill when unlocking
2715 2013-03-24 21:09:51 <gmaxwell> I know, I mean, it's fine for a one off patch, but it basically means if you salvage you will need to unlock right away on the next load or risk crashing.
2716 2013-03-24 21:10:04 <gmaxwell> Seems inelegant.
2717 2013-03-24 21:10:09 <sipa> agree
2718 2013-03-24 21:10:20 <sipa> but salvaging is inelegant in the first place
2719 2013-03-24 21:10:50 <BlueMatt> dropping bdb would be nice...
2720 2013-03-24 21:10:53 <gmaxwell> it's not technically the salvage run that has the issue, its the restart after it. Hm.
2721 2013-03-24 21:11:15 jeef has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2722 2013-03-24 21:12:08 <rdponticelli> Anastasios: Are you using btrfs, by chance?
2723 2013-03-24 21:12:21 <Anastasios> nope, no idea what that is
2724 2013-03-24 21:12:21 nus- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2725 2013-03-24 21:12:25 <gmaxwell> rdponticelli: windows user
2726 2013-03-24 21:12:26 nus has joined
2727 2013-03-24 21:12:38 <rdponticelli> gmaxwell: Didn't he said ubuntu?
2728 2013-03-24 21:12:44 <sipa> yes, ubuntu
2729 2013-03-24 21:12:48 <Anastasios> ok ive downloaded the bootstrap.dat, how do i get bitcoinqt to read blocks from it?
2730 2013-03-24 21:12:50 <gmaxwell> oh dunno why I thought windows.
2731 2013-03-24 21:12:54 jeef has joined
2732 2013-03-24 21:13:05 <gmaxwell> ;;bc,blocks
2733 2013-03-24 21:13:05 <gribble> 227867
2734 2013-03-24 21:13:07 joh______ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2735 2013-03-24 21:13:14 <sipa> Anastasios: quit it, put bootstrap.dat in the data directory, start
2736 2013-03-24 21:13:22 <sipa> Anastasios: data directory is ~/.bitcoin on ubuntu
2737 2013-03-24 21:13:33 <Anastasios> thanks
2738 2013-03-24 21:13:48 Beef has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2739 2013-03-24 21:13:50 coinners has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2740 2013-03-24 21:13:56 Beef has joined
2741 2013-03-24 21:13:56 Beef has quit (Changing host)
2742 2013-03-24 21:13:56 Beef has joined
2743 2013-03-24 21:15:20 <CodeShark> 9 more v1 blocks to evict
2744 2013-03-24 21:15:33 LacLeman has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2745 2013-03-24 21:16:20 <[7]> everyone PANIC PANIC and make the price DROP! :P
2746 2013-03-24 21:16:26 * [7] wants some cheap coins :P
2747 2013-03-24 21:17:07 <CodeShark> hmm, in hex, 6b 65 79 21 (either 02 or 03), 32 bytes of data
2748 2013-03-24 21:17:22 <CodeShark> that's ascii for "key" followed by hex for 33
2749 2013-03-24 21:17:27 <gmaxwell> valgrind sllllooow
2750 2013-03-24 21:17:46 Bohren_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2751 2013-03-24 21:17:46 <sipa> CodeShark: and key should be preceeded by a 0x03
2752 2013-03-24 21:17:59 <sipa> CodeShark: as it is a serialized string, which has a length descriptor
2753 2013-03-24 21:18:11 <CodeShark> most instances are, but some are preceeded by 0x02
2754 2013-03-24 21:18:24 <sipa> that seems strange
2755 2013-03-24 21:18:31 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
2756 2013-03-24 21:19:09 <CodeShark> seems like it should be fairly straightforward to write a utility to strip out private key data
2757 2013-03-24 21:19:15 ahfats has joined
2758 2013-03-24 21:19:23 <sipa> CodeShark: there have been several
2759 2013-03-24 21:19:26 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: and one exists.
2760 2013-03-24 21:19:33 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: but they do not work on encrypted wallets.
2761 2013-03-24 21:20:15 FredEE has joined
2762 2013-03-24 21:20:48 <CodeShark> should be possible to use command line openssl to decrypt them
2763 2013-03-24 21:21:03 <CodeShark> a one line bash script should do it :)
2764 2013-03-24 21:21:14 Beef has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2765 2013-03-24 21:22:30 <CodeShark> EVP_aes_256_cbc
2766 2013-03-24 21:22:37 FredEE has quit (Client Quit)
2767 2013-03-24 21:22:47 <Anastasios> oh, another interesting thing i found. after the lastest -salvagewallet attempt, the terminal said "Segmentation failed"
2768 2013-03-24 21:22:51 <Anastasios> forgot to mention this
2769 2013-03-24 21:22:56 <sipa> oh my
2770 2013-03-24 21:23:18 Beef has joined
2771 2013-03-24 21:23:18 Beef has quit (Changing host)
2772 2013-03-24 21:23:18 Beef has joined
2773 2013-03-24 21:23:39 <sipa> Anastasios: do you trust me to try to fix your wallet?
2774 2013-03-24 21:23:43 <sipa> Anastasios: i don't need your password
2775 2013-03-24 21:24:03 ahfats has quit (Changing host)
2776 2013-03-24 21:24:03 ahfats has joined
2777 2013-03-24 21:26:12 <CodeShark> echo -n <privkey hex> | xxd -p -r | openssl enc -aes-256-cbc -d -nosalt -K <key>
2778 2013-03-24 21:26:14 <rdponticelli> Anastasios: Any weird message issuing a dmesg?
2779 2013-03-24 21:26:17 <CodeShark> or something like that
2780 2013-03-24 21:26:31 <gmaxwell> sipa: https://github.com/gmaxwell/bitcoin/commit/d67bea473cbc4076bd6d3b8bf3718950f3ba89da but meh, I don't think we should merge something like that. I tested on my reproduction here and it works fine.
2781 2013-03-24 21:26:33 <MC-Droid> how can a wallet get munged that badly
2782 2013-03-24 21:27:36 <gmaxwell> MC-Droid: doesn't take much, bdb is not very corruption tolerant. You can make bdb crash just from flipping bits in a file.
2783 2013-03-24 21:27:39 <Anastasios> so how did I manage to do such damage? :D
2784 2013-03-24 21:27:46 <TD> sipa: this is really weird. i wasn't able to find any genuine memory leaks using the tcmalloc profiler, my connection count is stable, yet memory usage continues to grow rapidly
2785 2013-03-24 21:28:05 <MC-Droid> goddamit bdb
2786 2013-03-24 21:28:08 <gmaxwell> TD: can you dump two profiles and diff them?
2787 2013-03-24 21:28:08 <TD> i assume there must be a "leak" of some kind that isn't technically a leak, just a data structure that grows forever whilst still being referenced
2788 2013-03-24 21:28:12 <sipa> TD: i'm at 700 MB res now on my vps
2789 2013-03-24 21:28:24 <sipa> and it has been at that number for hours
2790 2013-03-24 21:28:42 <TD> gmaxwell: i need to learn how to use pprof better. i know how to make it show top allocation sites and print diagrams of the heap, but not how to get useful diffs like that
2791 2013-03-24 21:28:44 <sipa> which is more than i'd expect, though
2792 2013-03-24 21:29:01 <MC-Droid> fwiw.ive noticed a disparity between "memory used" for bitcoin and computers overall "commit charge"
2793 2013-03-24 21:29:10 <MC-Droid> sometims a large one
2794 2013-03-24 21:29:18 <jgarzik> blocks still flying off the assembly line, as if difficulty had never changed ;p
2795 2013-03-24 21:29:19 <TD> most of the profiles i've seen end up with most memory being rooted in LoadBlockIndex() which is expected, and PushMessage() which should have been fixed by sipas changes
2796 2013-03-24 21:29:23 <jgarzik> v2 lockin very close
2797 2013-03-24 21:29:35 <TD> jgarzik: how comes some pools are generating both versions? do they realize they're doing that?
2798 2013-03-24 21:30:06 <jgarzik> TD: Your information source may not reflect a recent upgrade, if it just shows totals of last N.
2799 2013-03-24 21:30:25 <TD> ah ok. i was just using the blockorigin site
2800 2013-03-24 21:30:30 darwin_ has joined
2801 2013-03-24 21:30:33 <MC-Droid> like bitcoin says its taking 250mb, but the computer is over 1000mb used, kill bitcoin and overall use drops.to 500 ish
2802 2013-03-24 21:30:40 <MC-Droid> gets worse with time
2803 2013-03-24 21:30:44 <gmaxwell> Some absolutely were producing mixed sequences, in some cases it was because they had different software creating coinbases for getwork workers vs stratum ones.
2804 2013-03-24 21:31:04 <jgarzik> yep
2805 2013-03-24 21:31:12 <gmaxwell> And were planning on just letting that support die instead of enhancing the software to support the bip.
2806 2013-03-24 21:32:32 remotemass has joined
2807 2013-03-24 21:33:12 <remotemass> what is IMPLEMENT_SERIALIZE ( ) in terms of C++??
2808 2013-03-24 21:33:12 <remotemass> It think it preserves formatting and comments but what actually is it, capitals usually are used for constants but the parenthisis make me wonder what actually is it
2809 2013-03-24 21:33:41 <CodeShark> things that look like that in C++ are generally macros
2810 2013-03-24 21:33:51 <remotemass> ok
2811 2013-03-24 21:33:54 <remotemass> thanks
2812 2013-03-24 21:34:00 giuseppe_ has joined
2813 2013-03-24 21:34:02 <sipa> it's a macro indeed, part of serialization stuff
2814 2013-03-24 21:34:07 <sipa> see serialize.h for a definition
2815 2013-03-24 21:34:11 joh______ has joined
2816 2013-03-24 21:34:13 <sipa> but don't expect to be able to read it
2817 2013-03-24 21:34:55 <Luke-Jr> sipa: any chance you could explain compressed pubkeys to MagicalTux sometime? :p
2818 2013-03-24 21:34:58 <remotemass> at the moment my main difficulty with C++ is with templates
2819 2013-03-24 21:35:15 <CodeShark> template syntax is hideous
2820 2013-03-24 21:35:25 <CodeShark> and compiler error messages are usually illegible :p
2821 2013-03-24 21:35:26 <sipa> macros are worse :p
2822 2013-03-24 21:35:40 <CodeShark> but they are very powerful things
2823 2013-03-24 21:36:02 <Luke-Jr> I'll take templates over macros any day..
2824 2013-03-24 21:36:04 <sipa> well, macros aren't turing complete...
2825 2013-03-24 21:36:39 whyowhy has joined
2826 2013-03-24 21:36:41 <gmaxwell> macros are fine, they are not monsters that lurk under your bed awaiting your sleep. You almost never lose a whole days work to a macro related issue.
2827 2013-03-24 21:36:41 sytse has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2828 2013-03-24 21:36:52 HiWEB has joined
2829 2013-03-24 21:37:08 <Luke-Jr> macros are just templates without REMOTELY usable errors
2830 2013-03-24 21:37:10 <gmaxwell> (C style macros, I mean. Lisp macros are like template but less terrible)
2831 2013-03-24 21:37:24 <Luke-Jr> (and less functionality)
2832 2013-03-24 21:37:53 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: no, macros are very tightly constrained which means the _kind_ of errors they can produce are very limited. Debugging a macro is trivial.. at worst you may have to glance at the preprocessor output.
2833 2013-03-24 21:38:18 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: depends on macro complexity, I guess
2834 2013-03-24 21:38:54 <Luke-Jr> not having line numbers, for a 10-50 line macro, is a pain
2835 2013-03-24 21:38:56 <Luke-Jr> :p
2836 2013-03-24 21:39:03 btcur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2837 2013-03-24 21:39:15 <gmaxwell> I can't say it's impossible to make a mess with them, its fairly rare for that to happen.
2838 2013-03-24 21:39:19 * [7] has some nice macro constructs
2839 2013-03-24 21:39:24 safra has joined
2840 2013-03-24 21:39:25 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: run the source through the preprocessor, compile the preprocessed source. :P
2841 2013-03-24 21:39:29 <CodeShark> in Lisp, there's no fundamental distinction between code that acts on data and code that acts on a function where as in C++ there is
2842 2013-03-24 21:39:30 <[7]> which probably generate a few hundred lines of output :P
2843 2013-03-24 21:39:42 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that's basically what I have to do, it's annoying :p
2844 2013-03-24 21:40:10 FredEE has joined
2845 2013-03-24 21:40:11 <CodeShark> furthermore, Lisp is dynamically typed
2846 2013-03-24 21:40:38 <gmaxwell> Well, not all lisp is dynamically typed. :P
2847 2013-03-24 21:40:43 d4de has joined
2848 2013-03-24 21:41:08 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
2849 2013-03-24 21:41:17 <CodeShark> templates operate at compile-time. trying to get a runtime equivalent defeats all the performance advantages of using them in the first place
2850 2013-03-24 21:41:49 <remotemass> CodeShark: do you think Lisp would be ideal to develop something like satoshi client?
2851 2013-03-24 21:42:23 <CodeShark> remotemass: I am not too experienced in Lisp - I've done much more in C++, so for me it's easier the way it is :p
2852 2013-03-24 21:42:40 nx201 has joined
2853 2013-03-24 21:42:42 ripshy has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2854 2013-03-24 21:42:49 <CodeShark> whether it would be better or not - I guess it depends on your criteria
2855 2013-03-24 21:42:50 <whyowhy> I was thinking about starting a client in Delphi
2856 2013-03-24 21:42:57 <pjorrit_> i'm sure it wouldn't be of as much use as a reference client though
2857 2013-03-24 21:43:00 <sipa> why o why?
2858 2013-03-24 21:43:00 <whyowhy> but I'm reading up about the protocol and internals first
2859 2013-03-24 21:43:13 <whyowhy> I've done loads Delphi more than C++
2860 2013-03-24 21:43:20 <whyowhy> (or Lisp for that matter)
2861 2013-03-24 21:43:21 <sipa> whyowhy: are you ready to spend a few man-months on it?
2862 2013-03-24 21:43:34 <whyowhy> sipa: a few hours a week perhaps, but yes
2863 2013-03-24 21:43:50 <sipa> a man-month means working on it full time :)
2864 2013-03-24 21:44:05 <CodeShark> does anyone still use Object Pascal?
2865 2013-03-24 21:44:26 <whyowhy> since Delphi is now under Embarcadero, the new versions are getting good again
2866 2013-03-24 21:44:44 <whyowhy> and freepascal/lazarus is picking up steam
2867 2013-03-24 21:44:46 <CodeShark> I did a couple projects with it way back in the day...wasn't so horrible...but it just seems like too tiny a developer base to make it worthwhile continuing
2868 2013-03-24 21:45:24 <CodeShark> the Borland IDEs kicked ass at one time
2869 2013-03-24 21:45:30 gusan0r has joined
2870 2013-03-24 21:45:30 <CodeShark> before Microsoft stole all their top engineers
2871 2013-03-24 21:45:43 <whyowhy> perhaps, I just like the language much much more, it's a little more mathematically inspired than C i think
2872 2013-03-24 21:45:55 <whyowhy> and it outdates C/C++
2873 2013-03-24 21:46:02 <remotemass> Brian Warner, in his lecture 'Bitcoin: A Technical Introduction' says he wouldn't choose C++ for such a project. Maybe he was thinking of more functional languages like Lisp or Scala
2874 2013-03-24 21:46:05 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
2875 2013-03-24 21:47:32 JudeA has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2876 2013-03-24 21:47:40 <remotemass> I wonder what language would he actually choose. But he didn't say
2877 2013-03-24 21:47:41 <whyowhy> APL (just kidding)
2878 2013-03-24 21:50:00 <remotemass> I think would be really helpful a screencast explaining main.h and main.cpp. There is nothing of that sort on youtube. It would be so helpful
2879 2013-03-24 21:50:08 <CodeShark> whyowhy: pascal is a stricter language than C, I learned much of structured programming using it - but I like C's terseness :)
2880 2013-03-24 21:50:10 <CodeShark> C is more prone to hard-to-spot errors in the hands of the careless
2881 2013-03-24 21:50:28 <qdii> how can I know the current difficulty of mining?
2882 2013-03-24 21:50:36 <whyowhy> 'modern' pascal can get pretty terse as well, if you get to know a bit of the trickery
2883 2013-03-24 21:50:46 <gmaxwell> qdii: run getinfo in the reference client.
2884 2013-03-24 21:51:24 joh______ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2885 2013-03-24 21:51:57 <qdii> gmaxwell: in bitcoin-qt ?
2886 2013-03-24 21:52:15 ripshy has joined
2887 2013-03-24 21:52:24 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|Damn, this synchronizing is getting slower and slower ><
2888 2013-03-24 21:52:35 <whyowhy> in case you're interested, I've tried to get some terseness into this one: http://xxm.sf.net/
2889 2013-03-24 21:52:53 <sipa> Silox|: which version?
2890 2013-03-24 21:53:05 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|sipa: Eh, no idea, latest bitcoin-qt
2891 2013-03-24 21:53:11 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|4.8.3
2892 2013-03-24 21:53:22 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|bitcoin version 0.8.1
2893 2013-03-24 21:53:24 <sipa> i think that's the Qt version, not the bitcoin version :D
2894 2013-03-24 21:53:27 <sipa> right
2895 2013-03-24 21:53:36 <gmaxwell> qdii: sure, open the console.. type getinfo
2896 2013-03-24 21:53:37 <sipa> well, it's expected to be slower after the last checkpoint
2897 2013-03-24 21:53:45 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
2898 2013-03-24 21:53:46 <gribble> 227873
2899 2013-03-24 21:53:55 <sipa> so the last 2400 blocks
2900 2013-03-24 21:53:55 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|It was fast as heck in the beginning, but now I'm at 24.8K blocks remaining and damn, that's slow.
2901 2013-03-24 21:54:16 <whyowhy> I read something about a possible fork in the chain due to large blocks, how is that going?
2902 2013-03-24 21:54:21 nelisky has quit (Quit: nelisky)
2903 2013-03-24 21:54:25 davanger_ has joined
2904 2013-03-24 21:54:26 <jgarzik> Let's see if a pynode netsync can beat the v2 lock-in
2905 2013-03-24 21:54:34 <whyowhy> I updated my client as soon as I read about it
2906 2013-03-24 21:54:38 <CodeShark> whyowhy: it wasn't just hypothetical - it happened for real
2907 2013-03-24 21:54:41 <CodeShark> but it's over now
2908 2013-03-24 21:54:57 <sipa> it will happen again, after may 15
2909 2013-03-24 21:55:05 <sipa> but hopefully with very little impact
2910 2013-03-24 21:55:11 forrestv_ is now known as forrestv
2911 2013-03-24 21:55:11 davanger_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2912 2013-03-24 21:55:14 forrestv has quit (Changing host)
2913 2013-03-24 21:55:14 forrestv has joined
2914 2013-03-24 21:55:19 <whyowhy> because of another 500k+ block then?
2915 2013-03-24 21:55:21 davanger_ has joined
2916 2013-03-24 21:55:27 <sipa> size isn't the problem
2917 2013-03-24 21:55:40 <sipa> it's the number of transactions _affected_ by a block
2918 2013-03-24 21:56:04 <sipa> and that 970 kB block two weeks ago crossed some magic treshold for many old clients
2919 2013-03-24 21:56:25 <sipa> so now there is a temporary rule in force that disallows blocks that affect that many transactions
2920 2013-03-24 21:56:31 <sipa> but that rule will be lifted on may 15
2921 2013-03-24 21:56:39 ripshy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2922 2013-03-24 21:56:51 <sipa> so people have time to upgrade
2923 2013-03-24 21:56:59 <gmaxwell> or apply the workaround
2924 2013-03-24 21:57:49 davanger has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2925 2013-03-24 21:58:03 <whyowhy> a rule? how and where? in the scripting of the transaction blocks?
2926 2013-03-24 21:58:44 <sipa> blocks don't have scripts
2927 2013-03-24 21:58:54 <sipa> transactions do, but that doesn't have anything to do with it
2928 2013-03-24 21:58:59 <sipa> it's a rule that is in 0.8.1
2929 2013-03-24 21:59:07 <sipa> and employed by a majority of hash power
2930 2013-03-24 21:59:18 <whyowhy> ah so
2931 2013-03-24 21:59:26 <whyowhy> good thing i upgraded then
2932 2013-03-24 22:00:26 <whyowhy> anyway, I've been looking around the client source and the protocol pages on the website,
2933 2013-03-24 22:00:38 <TD> whyowhy: i used to be a delphi programmer
2934 2013-03-24 22:00:42 <whyowhy> any other good pointers I should look at to get a good view of the work ahead?
2935 2013-03-24 22:00:45 <TD> it was really the best thing out there in the mid 90s
2936 2013-03-24 22:00:51 * whyowhy agrees
2937 2013-03-24 22:01:15 <CodeShark> as I said earlier, Borland's IDEs really kicked ass
2938 2013-03-24 22:01:25 <CodeShark> not just Delphi - also Borland C++
2939 2013-03-24 22:01:41 ripshy has joined
2940 2013-03-24 22:01:42 <CodeShark> the component library was WAAAAY better than what microsoft had
2941 2013-03-24 22:01:50 <whyowhy> thing is, I've done so much Delphi all these years, anything else is dwarfed, it would take me much too much effort to use anything else
2942 2013-03-24 22:02:21 Xeno-Genesis has joined
2943 2013-03-24 22:02:37 <whyowhy> I tried C#, got to know it a little, still feels like foreign country
2944 2013-03-24 22:02:56 <CodeShark> I haven't used C# at all
2945 2013-03-24 22:03:03 <CodeShark> just read about it here and there
2946 2013-03-24 22:03:15 safra has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2947 2013-03-24 22:03:20 <CodeShark> it only seems to be really used in .NET...and I don't use .NET
2948 2013-03-24 22:03:28 <CodeShark> but the language might be alright
2949 2013-03-24 22:03:28 <sipa> whyowhy: TD might be the person to talk to, as he's one of the few that have implemented (a large part of) a working bitcoin client
2950 2013-03-24 22:03:29 <CodeShark> dunno :)
2951 2013-03-24 22:03:52 <whyowhy> sipa, TD: open source?
2952 2013-03-24 22:03:56 <TD> well, delphi was great in its day, but i'm not sure i'd use it these days
2953 2013-03-24 22:04:00 <TD> yes, of course. it's in java. google for bitcoinj
2954 2013-03-24 22:04:18 <whyowhy> funny thing is Microsoft turned it's back on .Net itself! going for javascript so it seems
2955 2013-03-24 22:04:31 giuseppe_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2956 2013-03-24 22:04:33 <aXs__> C# is strong-typed language with lots of nifty features, I like it and the .NET VM has good performance (compared to, say, ruby's)
2957 2013-03-24 22:04:39 <whyowhy> TD: thanks, I'll check it out
2958 2013-03-24 22:04:48 <TD> hah
2959 2013-03-24 22:04:56 <TD> compared to ruby almost anything has good performance
2960 2013-03-24 22:04:58 <whyowhy> I hate VM's
2961 2013-03-24 22:05:16 <CodeShark> whyowhy: I also have a C++ implementation of the wire data format and the p2p networking
2962 2013-03-24 22:05:19 <aXs__> TD: but lots of people uses the ruby VM
2963 2013-03-24 22:05:30 <whyowhy> CodeShark: url?
2964 2013-03-24 22:05:43 <gmaxwell> aXs__: but also strongly controlled by microsoftâ I think a lot of people expect that if msft has a couple of down quarters they'll start suing .NET users, so only people who are otherwise full on microsoft koolaid are keen on using it.
2965 2013-03-24 22:05:47 <CodeShark> https://github.com/CodeShark/CoinClasses
2966 2013-03-24 22:05:49 ripshy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2967 2013-03-24 22:05:59 <whyowhy> all this about VM's and managed code, what's wrong with native?
2968 2013-03-24 22:06:11 <whyowhy> CodeShark: tx 'll have a look
2969 2013-03-24 22:06:12 <CodeShark> I prefer native, too :)
2970 2013-03-24 22:06:37 <TD> well, i doubt they'd sue .net users given that most of them are windows developers
2971 2013-03-24 22:06:46 <Arnavion> <whyowhy> funny thing is Microsoft turned it's back on .Net itself! going for javascript so it seems
2972 2013-03-24 22:06:50 <Arnavion> .Net is a runtime
2973 2013-03-24 22:06:54 <TD> it's hard to imagine MS going the way of sun anytime soon anyway
2974 2013-03-24 22:06:55 <Arnavion> Javascript is a language
2975 2013-03-24 22:07:38 giuseppe_ has joined
2976 2013-03-24 22:07:39 _M is now known as cadsII
2977 2013-03-24 22:07:49 <CodeShark> JS, for better or worse, has become the only real programming language supported in all browsers
2978 2013-03-24 22:07:57 <whyowhy> Arnavion: seen TypeScript?
2979 2013-03-24 22:08:07 <CodeShark> actually, ECMAScript
2980 2013-03-24 22:08:12 <Arnavion> whyowhy: Yes
2981 2013-03-24 22:08:17 <CodeShark> the "Java" branding is unfortunate
2982 2013-03-24 22:08:44 <whyowhy> and this WinRT stuff, as far as I can see it's like a do-over of COM/ActiveX
2983 2013-03-24 22:08:46 D34TH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2984 2013-03-24 22:08:54 <Arnavion> Again, yes
2985 2013-03-24 22:08:55 <aXs__> gmaxwell: if you are not a microsoft shop, it would be a bit strange to use .NET anyways.
2986 2013-03-24 22:09:17 <whyowhy> aXs__: what about mono?
2987 2013-03-24 22:09:22 <gmaxwell> aXs__: And thats strange, a good language should stand on its own merits.
2988 2013-03-24 22:09:25 <aXs__> whyowhy: lagging behind
2989 2013-03-24 22:09:51 <CodeShark> whyowhy: the listener2, keygen, ping, and rawtx examples work. can't guarantee the other ones do :p
2990 2013-03-24 22:10:06 <whyowhy> wasn't there issues as well between android and java?
2991 2013-03-24 22:10:13 <Arnavion> Mono itself is not lagging behind
2992 2013-03-24 22:10:16 <CodeShark> android doesn't use the java VM
2993 2013-03-24 22:10:20 <Arnavion> It has .Net 4 compatibility
2994 2013-03-24 22:10:21 <CodeShark> it uses davlik
2995 2013-03-24 22:10:27 <sipa> dalvik
2996 2013-03-24 22:10:33 <CodeShark> yes, that's what I meant :p
2997 2013-03-24 22:10:36 <aXs__> gmaxwell: it's about the ecosystem. If you choose to use C#/.NET it's because you want to interface with the ecosystem. Just like using Java makes sense in other case.. other PHP for web projects. The language itself a rarely the sane reason to make a choice.
2998 2013-03-24 22:10:47 <sipa> and it does use Java-the-Language
2999 2013-03-24 22:10:53 <aXs__> Arnavion: library wise
3000 2013-03-24 22:10:55 <sipa> though not Java-the-VM or Java-the-Runtime
3001 2013-03-24 22:11:10 <Arnavion> aXs__: It doesn't have Silverlight and WPF
3002 2013-03-24 22:11:20 <Arnavion> aXs__: Otherwise anything that runs on .Net can run in Mono
3003 2013-03-24 22:11:29 <Arnavion> aXs__: including interop
3004 2013-03-24 22:11:45 gruez has joined
3005 2013-03-24 22:11:47 <aXs__> Arnavion: so basically command-line applications
3006 2013-03-24 22:11:54 <whyowhy> I wonder if this x32 ABI will pick up interest
3007 2013-03-24 22:11:58 <Arnavion> There is WinForms
3008 2013-03-24 22:12:06 nomailing has left ()
3009 2013-03-24 22:12:24 <Insu> and gtk *hides*
3010 2013-03-24 22:12:28 <Arnavion> But I believe the primary use case of Mono is ASP.Net web hosting and bindings to GTK, etc.
3011 2013-03-24 22:12:36 <aXs__> Arnavion: it was my understanding that even the WinForms implementation of Mono wasn't completed yet
3012 2013-03-24 22:12:39 <Luke-Jr> whyowhy: I hope so, it's nice in theory
3013 2013-03-24 22:12:42 <gruez> so do I have to upgrade to 0.8.1 if I have 0.8.0?
3014 2013-03-24 22:12:43 <CodeShark> in the time it takes me to master a new bloated framework, I can learn some fundamental concept in computer science instead :p
3015 2013-03-24 22:12:47 <Luke-Jr> whyowhy: I wish it was ABI compatible with x86_32 tho
3016 2013-03-24 22:12:53 <Arnavion> aXs__: It's WinForms anyway. I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole
3017 2013-03-24 22:12:59 <CodeShark> and develop my own framework
3018 2013-03-24 22:13:01 <aXs__> Arnavion: you are correct about the ASP.NET
3019 2013-03-24 22:13:08 <whyowhy> Luke-Jr: sounds impossible if you ask mee
3020 2013-03-24 22:13:11 <Luke-Jr> gruez: only if you mine
3021 2013-03-24 22:13:19 <Luke-Jr> gruez: and only temporarily
3022 2013-03-24 22:13:23 Xeno-Genesis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3023 2013-03-24 22:13:27 <gruez> Luke-Jr: ok, nice
3024 2013-03-24 22:13:33 <aXs__> Arnavion: me it's ASP.NET i wouldn't touch with a 10foot pole ;)
3025 2013-03-24 22:13:34 <Luke-Jr> whyowhy: as far as I know, the key incompatibility is the larger time_t
3026 2013-03-24 22:13:38 Xeno-Genesis has joined
3027 2013-03-24 22:13:48 <Arnavion> aXs__: Why's that?
3028 2013-03-24 22:14:14 <gruez> Luke-Jr: about eligius.st, if I mine with GBT using cgminer
3029 2013-03-24 22:14:16 <aXs__> Arnavion: i prefer the ecosystem around django/flask or PHP
3030 2013-03-24 22:14:18 <sipa> Luke-Jr: x86_32 is 32-bit machine code, x32 is 64-bit machine code, no?
3031 2013-03-24 22:14:24 <gruez> are the transactions generated locally?
3032 2013-03-24 22:14:27 <Luke-Jr> sipa: yes
3033 2013-03-24 22:14:28 davanger__ has joined
3034 2013-03-24 22:14:32 <gruez> or do i need to setup the eloipool proxy
3035 2013-03-24 22:14:39 <sipa> so how can it be compatible in any way?
3036 2013-03-24 22:14:53 <Luke-Jr> gruez: probably should just use stratum, cgminer's GBT is broken
3037 2013-03-24 22:14:58 <Luke-Jr> gruez: or upgrade to BFGMiner
3038 2013-03-24 22:15:14 <Luke-Jr> sipa: by passing variables and return values in the same registers?
3039 2013-03-24 22:15:29 <Luke-Jr> sipa: and having the same sizes of all types
3040 2013-03-24 22:15:30 <gruez> so if i use BFG + GBT, the transactions that are included will be from the local bitcoind?
3041 2013-03-24 22:15:43 <Luke-Jr> gruez: no, that is not supported yet - but patches welcome
3042 2013-03-24 22:15:48 <sipa> Luke-Jr: there are more registers, and they have a different size...
3043 2013-03-24 22:15:50 <jgarzik> This is what my script says, for block lock-in:
3044 2013-03-24 22:15:50 <Luke-Jr> gruez: otoh, I don't know if any pools allow it either
3045 2013-03-24 22:15:51 <jgarzik> v1:59 v2:941
3046 2013-03-24 22:15:58 <sipa> Luke-Jr: why would any correspondence matter?
3047 2013-03-24 22:15:58 <jgarzik> though there may be an off-by-one in there
3048 2013-03-24 22:16:05 <aXs__> sipa: x32 is 32bit pointer but using full ranges of x86_64 registers
3049 2013-03-24 22:16:06 twobitcoins has joined
3050 2013-03-24 22:16:20 <sipa> aXs__: yes, i understand
3051 2013-03-24 22:16:26 <Luke-Jr> sipa: AFAIK, x86_32 registers have the same size on x86_64
3052 2013-03-24 22:16:37 <sipa> yes, of course
3053 2013-03-24 22:16:44 <sipa> it's the same machine language
3054 2013-03-24 22:16:50 <sipa> oh
3055 2013-03-24 22:16:54 <Luke-Jr> every type has the same size between x86_32 and x32, except time_t
3056 2013-03-24 22:16:57 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: huh?
3057 2013-03-24 22:17:09 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: ?
3058 2013-03-24 22:17:12 <gruez> Luke-Jr: so the only way to choose which transactions get included, is to mine on p2pool?
3059 2013-03-24 22:17:14 <sipa> x86_32 has 32-bit registers, x32 has 64-bit registers
3060 2013-03-24 22:17:21 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: 64-bit mode registers are larger than 32-bit mode registers
3061 2013-03-24 22:17:34 madmac2501 has joined
3062 2013-03-24 22:17:48 <Luke-Jr> gruez: that's probably the simplest way. but even then, you have to make a custom bitcoind build
3063 2013-03-24 22:17:53 <aXs__> jgarzik: he probably means that eax in 32bit is same size than eax in 64bit (obvious but well)
3064 2013-03-24 22:17:56 <sipa> i don't get the point of wanting compatibility between two different machine languages
3065 2013-03-24 22:18:07 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: the same registers used in x86_32 (as aXs__ said)
3066 2013-03-24 22:18:08 <sipa> it's like asking for x32 to be compatible with ARM ABI
3067 2013-03-24 22:18:08 davanger_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3068 2013-03-24 22:18:23 <Luke-Jr> sipa: so I can just change my compiler and gradually switch :P
3069 2013-03-24 22:18:33 <sipa> Luke-Jr: ?
3070 2013-03-24 22:18:40 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3071 2013-03-24 22:18:54 Xeno-Genesis has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3072 2013-03-24 22:18:58 <sipa> if a binary runs in 64-bit mode, all its libraries need to be 64-bit as well
3073 2013-03-24 22:18:58 davanger__ has quit (Client Quit)
3074 2013-03-24 22:19:03 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: No, x32 uses 64-bit mode registers
3075 2013-03-24 22:19:08 giuseppe_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3076 2013-03-24 22:19:10 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: http://lwn.net/Articles/456731/
3077 2013-03-24 22:19:11 <Luke-Jr> sipa: depends on the ABI.
3078 2013-03-24 22:19:13 <CodeShark> aren't the 64 bit registers called RAX?
3079 2013-03-24 22:19:20 <jgarzik> CodeShark: yes
3080 2013-03-24 22:19:22 <sipa> Luke-Jr: ??
3081 2013-03-24 22:19:28 <Luke-Jr> sipa: x32, while running in 64-bit mode, only uses 32-bit virtual memory space
3082 2013-03-24 22:19:29 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3083 2013-03-24 22:19:32 <aXs__> CodeShark: [RAX[EAX[AX[AH|AL]
3084 2013-03-24 22:19:39 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i'm not talking about memory addressing
3085 2013-03-24 22:19:45 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i'm talking about the machine language
3086 2013-03-24 22:19:55 <CodeShark> calling conventions?
3087 2013-03-24 22:19:55 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I know it *does*, but it *could* have only used 32-bit mode registers for function calls
3088 2013-03-24 22:19:56 <gruez> Luke-Jr: ok, thanks for the info
3089 2013-03-24 22:20:16 <sipa> Luke-Jr: even if it could, i fail to see the point
3090 2013-03-24 22:20:22 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I see no reason a compatible-ABI-variant-of-x32 couldn't make calls to x86_32 libraries and vice-versa
3091 2013-03-24 22:20:27 <sipa> it's not like you can call 32-bit code anyway
3092 2013-03-24 22:20:34 Xeno-Genesis has joined
3093 2013-03-24 22:20:50 <sipa> Luke-Jr: no reason? it's a _different_ machine language
3094 2013-03-24 22:21:05 <Luke-Jr> sipa: so is i686 and i686-with-SSE2
3095 2013-03-24 22:21:25 <sipa> those are backward compatible, x86_32 and x86_64 aren't
3096 2013-03-24 22:21:34 <sipa> in neither way
3097 2013-03-24 22:21:56 <Luke-Jr> weird
3098 2013-03-24 22:22:08 <Luke-Jr> (I only know MIPS assembly/bytecode)
3099 2013-03-24 22:22:11 madmac2501 has quit (Client Quit)
3100 2013-03-24 22:22:54 LainZ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3101 2013-03-24 22:23:23 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3102 2013-03-24 22:23:45 gruez has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3103 2013-03-24 22:23:49 Smooblush has quit (Quit: See you later.)
3104 2013-03-24 22:23:56 RoboTeddy has joined
3105 2013-03-24 22:24:38 ripshy has joined
3106 2013-03-24 22:24:59 Smooblush has joined
3107 2013-03-24 22:26:26 <sipa> Luke-Jr: the CPU is basically one that supports 2 languages: 32-bit and 64-bit (well, and several older ones...), but it's always operating in exactly one mode for a given thread
3108 2013-03-24 22:27:17 <Luke-Jr> sipa: and the 32-bit instructions don't work in 64-bit mode? :/
3109 2013-03-24 22:27:28 <aXs__> Luke-Jr: a simple example
3110 2013-03-24 22:27:38 <sipa> i don't think so; they refer to different registers, constants have a different size, ...
3111 2013-03-24 22:27:45 <aXs__> Luke-Jr: bytecode 0x55 is push rbp in 64bit and push ebp in 32bit
3112 2013-03-24 22:27:55 <Luke-Jr> sigh
3113 2013-03-24 22:28:15 * Luke-Jr kicks AMD for doing all that and not switching to big endian too
3114 2013-03-24 22:28:35 <sipa> hahaha
3115 2013-03-24 22:28:44 ripshy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3116 2013-03-24 22:28:49 <aXs__> 400498:c7 45 fc 01 00 00 00 movl $0x1,-0x4(%rbp)
3117 2013-03-24 22:28:50 <aXs__> 804839a:c7 45 fc 01 00 00 00 movl $0x1,-0x4(%ebp)
3118 2013-03-24 22:29:12 <whyowhy> and then there's ARM, no microcode... all those registers... a lot of design to get power consumption down
3119 2013-03-24 22:29:13 donpdonp has quit (Changing host)
3120 2013-03-24 22:29:13 donpdonp has joined
3121 2013-03-24 22:29:19 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: considering that a system can be _mixed_ ... uhhh ... having mixed endian on one system would not be good.
3122 2013-03-24 22:29:45 Smooblush has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3123 2013-03-24 22:29:45 <CodeShark> sorta like bitcoin? :)
3124 2013-03-24 22:30:00 <sipa> but but... in bitcoin _everything_ is little endian
3125 2013-03-24 22:30:04 <sipa> except the exceptions!
3126 2013-03-24 22:30:04 tyn has joined
3127 2013-03-24 22:30:11 <CodeShark> lol
3128 2013-03-24 22:30:21 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: but we just established that a system *can't* be mixed!
3129 2013-03-24 22:30:26 <Luke-Jr> or, a process anyhow
3130 2013-03-24 22:30:39 <sipa> Luke-Jr: processes still talk to eachother :
3131 2013-03-24 22:30:43 <whyowhy> when quantum computing kicks in, will that be little or big endian?
3132 2013-03-24 22:30:45 <Luke-Jr> and mixed systems without mixed processes are just stupid
3133 2013-03-24 22:30:50 <CodeShark> so it's a per-thread thing, sipa?
3134 2013-03-24 22:30:53 <Luke-Jr> sipa: in network endian, I'd hope!
3135 2013-03-24 22:30:54 <sipa> whyowhy: quantum endian
3136 2013-03-24 22:31:02 <whyowhy> openian
3137 2013-03-24 22:31:07 <aXs__> whyowhy: there is still multiple cpu mode on ARM... native, THUMB and that weird Jazelle thing for native java bytecode :P
3138 2013-03-24 22:31:09 <CodeShark> can two different threads in one process run in two different modes?
3139 2013-03-24 22:31:22 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: a process can't be, but the system sure as heck can.
3140 2013-03-24 22:31:29 <CodeShark> |little endian> + |big endian>
3141 2013-03-24 22:31:45 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: and you send integers between processes and into the kernel.
3142 2013-03-24 22:31:48 <sipa> CodeShark: well, part is technical limitation, and part is enforced by the kernel
3143 2013-03-24 22:32:01 <whyowhy> bswap on the fly?
3144 2013-03-24 22:32:09 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: the kernel knows the process endian
3145 2013-03-24 22:32:21 <sipa> it would seem to me that it would in theory be possible to tell the OS "from now on, this thread will be 32-bit... and jump to X"
3146 2013-03-24 22:32:41 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yes, but egads... you think having BE in some processes is more elegant than having to do a bytesexchange on syscalls coming into the kernel?!
3147 2013-03-24 22:32:42 normanrichards has quit ()
3148 2013-03-24 22:32:44 bolapara_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3149 2013-03-24 22:32:57 <sipa> but as they share memory, that sounds like shooting yourself in the foot
3150 2013-03-24 22:33:12 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: if your system is so stupid as to have mixed, yes
3151 2013-03-24 22:33:19 <sipa> i think there's nothing elegant about BE in the first place :p
3152 2013-03-24 22:33:25 <sipa> except that all humans do it
3153 2013-03-24 22:33:36 <sipa> but that's a matter of personal preference
3154 2013-03-24 22:33:42 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I've refused to use mixed x86_64/x86_32 since AMD released it :P
3155 2013-03-24 22:33:49 <CodeShark> I prefer BE for multiprecision math :)
3156 2013-03-24 22:34:14 <Luke-Jr> sipa: you have a point there, but if the endian changes, it makes sense to change it globally
3157 2013-03-24 22:34:24 <Luke-Jr> printing LE as CDAB is just dumb
3158 2013-03-24 22:34:29 <gmaxwell> I wonder how bored all of you must be to actually have strong preferences on BE vs LE. :)
3159 2013-03-24 22:34:34 <Luke-Jr> at least do DCBA
3160 2013-03-24 22:34:38 <CodeShark> and left-to-right, humans actually use LE
3161 2013-03-24 22:34:45 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
3162 2013-03-24 22:34:48 pale_fire has quit (Quit: pale_fire)
3163 2013-03-24 22:35:01 <CodeShark> but it's not hard to think right-to-left instead
3164 2013-03-24 22:35:08 <Luke-Jr> sipa: maybe when/if someone revises Tonal, they can make it LE ;)
3165 2013-03-24 22:35:10 tyn has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
3166 2013-03-24 22:35:21 <sipa> gmaxwell: i actually have only one strong preference, and that is against braid-dead-endian :p
3167 2013-03-24 22:35:26 <sipa> *brain
3168 2013-03-24 22:35:39 <sipa> (3412)
3169 2013-03-24 22:36:44 addos has joined
3170 2013-03-24 22:37:03 <addos> is there anything being done to try to reduce the overhead of starting bitcoin the first time?
3171 2013-03-24 22:37:13 <addos> it is sloooooooooow
3172 2013-03-24 22:37:37 <sipa> addos: which version?
3173 2013-03-24 22:37:39 <CodeShark> nah, nobody has ever even thought about that issue before
3174 2013-03-24 22:38:01 <addos> .7
3175 2013-03-24 22:38:09 <sipa> addos: do you mean initial sync with the network, or just starting up?
3176 2013-03-24 22:38:10 <CodeShark> .8 is a lot faster
3177 2013-03-24 22:38:12 <Luke-Jr> addos: try 0.8.1 :p
3178 2013-03-24 22:38:16 <addos> initial sync
3179 2013-03-24 22:38:16 <sipa> oh, upgrade to 0.8 please
3180 2013-03-24 22:38:18 Xeno-Genesis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3181 2013-03-24 22:38:38 Xeno-Genesis has joined
3182 2013-03-24 22:38:47 wrabbit has joined
3183 2013-03-24 22:38:49 <Luke-Jr> addos: 0.8.1 does initial sync so fast, that we didn't bother trying to upgrade the block database format (we just rebuild it from scratch)
3184 2013-03-24 22:39:04 <addos> really?
3185 2013-03-24 22:39:06 <addos> is that a joke?
3186 2013-03-24 22:39:10 <CodeShark> no joke
3187 2013-03-24 22:39:18 <addos> heh
3188 2013-03-24 22:39:21 <sipa> it takes like an hour
3189 2013-03-24 22:39:21 <addos> I guess I should try that
3190 2013-03-24 22:39:30 <addos> even on a slow hd?
3191 2013-03-24 22:39:31 <sipa> depending on your hardware
3192 2013-03-24 22:39:32 <addos> or on ssd?
3193 2013-03-24 22:39:40 <sipa> the advantage will be larger on a slow disk
3194 2013-03-24 22:39:40 <aXs__> it's for real, call 800-GOT-BITCOIN and order your upgrade today!
3195 2013-03-24 22:39:44 <Luke-Jr> normal HD I think it's 2-3 hours
3196 2013-03-24 22:39:45 <sipa> as 0.8 does much less disk writes
3197 2013-03-24 22:40:03 <addos> that sounds incredible
3198 2013-03-24 22:40:20 <sipa> well, now the crappy network sync code is the bottleneck :(
3199 2013-03-24 22:40:37 <sipa> (and signature validation, after the last checkpoint)
3200 2013-03-24 22:41:06 <addos> it definitely sounded like it was needed
3201 2013-03-24 22:41:19 <addos> going to be interesting to see what it does when I start it up
3202 2013-03-24 22:41:25 <CodeShark> who was it that had suggested using BDB in the first place? :)
3203 2013-03-24 22:41:33 <sipa> CodeShark: "suggested" ?
3204 2013-03-24 22:41:37 <sipa> CodeShark: satoshi just used it...
3205 2013-03-24 22:41:42 <remotemass> Can someone please explain a bit 'Blockstatus enum' and where it is actually used. Why for instance the default enumeration is not used ..??
3206 2013-03-24 22:41:47 <sipa> addos: it will say "reindexing blocks on disk"
3207 2013-03-24 22:41:58 <addos> ha
3208 2013-03-24 22:42:03 <CodeShark> oh, really? satoshi didn't just come up with his own flat file format? :)
3209 2013-03-24 22:42:09 <Luke-Jr> LOL
3210 2013-03-24 22:42:23 digitalmagus has quit ()
3211 2013-03-24 22:42:24 <addos> it does, look at that
3212 2013-03-24 22:42:45 <addos> chugging along
3213 2013-03-24 22:42:47 <sipa> remotemass: nStatus in CBlockIndex; it's an int as the fields get ORed together
3214 2013-03-24 22:43:10 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3215 2013-03-24 22:43:19 <sipa> remotemass: it's just an easy way to define a list of constants
3216 2013-03-24 22:44:19 <sipa> remotemass: first 3 bits define what part of validity checks have succeeded, second 2 bits what data is available, last 2 bits what failed
3217 2013-03-24 22:44:44 <sipa> remotemass: note that this is not a normative datastructure in the protocol, it's just a client side indexing issue
3218 2013-03-24 22:45:08 sytse has joined
3219 2013-03-24 22:45:47 <gmaxwell> sipa: so you'd be okay with bitreversed ordering? 01234567 -> 04261537
3220 2013-03-24 22:46:00 <sipa> gmaxwell: would i even notice that? :p
3221 2013-03-24 22:46:09 <sipa> afaik, my system has no bit-level addressing
3222 2013-03-24 22:46:59 <sipa> addos: it may seem extremely fast at first... it's isn't; the first few blocks are just very small
3223 2013-03-24 22:47:05 <gmaxwell> I was responding into the scrollback wrt braid-dead-endian. :P
3224 2013-03-24 22:47:12 <addos> yeah
3225 2013-03-24 22:47:18 <addos> it is slowing down now
3226 2013-03-24 22:47:23 skinnkavaj has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3227 2013-03-24 22:47:25 whyowhy has quit (Quit: gotta go)
3228 2013-03-24 22:48:27 <sipa> jgarzik, gmaxwell: my bitcoind segfaulted...
3229 2013-03-24 22:48:35 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: hurrah
3230 2013-03-24 22:48:44 <gmaxwell> er sipa
3231 2013-03-24 22:48:51 <sipa> and it seems related
3232 2013-03-24 22:48:51 <gmaxwell> Any idea how you triggered it?
3233 2013-03-24 22:49:10 <gmaxwell> I stopped running in valgrind and switched to running in gdb.
3234 2013-03-24 22:49:11 <sipa> one of the last things in debug.log is a misbehaving node being disconnected
3235 2013-03-24 22:51:04 space_cadet has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3236 2013-03-24 22:52:10 digitalmagus has joined
3237 2013-03-24 22:52:11 Xeno-Genesis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3238 2013-03-24 22:52:15 Marcel has quit (|HSD!~user@router2.hsdev.com|Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3239 2013-03-24 22:52:21 <rdponticelli> Somebody found a DOS?
3240 2013-03-24 22:52:29 Xeno-Genesis has joined
3241 2013-03-24 22:52:45 <rdponticelli> sipa: Is it with the new network code?
3242 2013-03-24 22:52:53 oleganza has joined
3243 2013-03-24 22:52:54 <gmaxwell> rdponticelli: No. geesh. Chill out. He's testing some changes that rewrite the network code.
3244 2013-03-24 22:53:02 <digitalmagus> DOS=?
3245 2013-03-24 22:53:16 <sipa> denial of service attack?
3246 2013-03-24 22:53:25 <rdponticelli> gmaxwell: Ok, sorry...
3247 2013-03-24 22:53:30 <digitalmagus> ah ok
3248 2013-03-24 22:54:44 giuseppe_ has joined
3249 2013-03-24 22:55:05 ripshy has joined
3250 2013-03-24 22:55:21 <CodeShark> disk operating system? :p
3251 2013-03-24 22:55:36 <CodeShark> the number two in spanish?
3252 2013-03-24 22:56:20 giuseppe_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3253 2013-03-24 22:56:21 <rdponticelli> Uno, dos, tres
3254 2013-03-24 22:56:24 <CodeShark> the plural form of the first note in the musical scale?
3255 2013-03-24 22:57:01 <sipa> can you please specify _which_ musical scale?
3256 2013-03-24 22:57:02 * gmaxwell takes 12 steps back
3257 2013-03-24 22:57:17 <CodeShark> the diatonic scale, 440Hz well-tempered
3258 2013-03-24 22:57:23 <CodeShark> or equal-tempered, rather
3259 2013-03-24 22:57:54 OneMiner has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3260 2013-03-24 22:58:14 * gmaxwell hopes the jokes will stop before he becomes mean tempered.
3261 2013-03-24 22:58:27 OneMiner has joined
3262 2013-03-24 22:58:39 <CodeShark> is not telling jokes all it takes to keep gmaxwell from getting in a bad mood?
3263 2013-03-24 22:58:45 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3264 2013-03-24 22:58:48 <CodeShark> why didn't someone tell me sooner? :p
3265 2013-03-24 22:59:09 ripshy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3266 2013-03-24 22:59:25 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: no worried I'm just looking for someone to beat.
3267 2013-03-24 23:00:12 <gmaxwell> An un just temperment is a consequence of being on staff.
3268 2013-03-24 23:01:00 <gmaxwell> Or perhaps its my signature. But I suppose I should give it a rest.
3269 2013-03-24 23:01:23 <jrmithdobbs> stupid question, and don't lynch me
3270 2013-03-24 23:01:29 <CodeShark> I think it's just you, gmaxwell - I still like you, though :)
3271 2013-03-24 23:01:50 johnsoft1 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3272 2013-03-24 23:01:57 <jrmithdobbs> but does anyone knowof a sane way to profile browser-based js? or are these shitty things really what i'm stuck with
3273 2013-03-24 23:02:09 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I'm boggling at the fact that you've missed everything I've been saying is a music pun. :P
3274 2013-03-24 23:02:52 <CodeShark> I finished with the musical puns several lines ago
3275 2013-03-24 23:02:59 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i particularly enjoyed the last one, even if it makes me an orch dork ;p
3276 2013-03-24 23:03:32 Smooblush has joined
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3278 2013-03-24 23:05:37 darinmorrison has joined
3279 2013-03-24 23:05:54 <sipa> remotemass: the enum is just an easy way to define the constants
3280 2013-03-24 23:06:15 mappum has joined
3281 2013-03-24 23:06:23 <sipa> but as several get ORed together, it isn't an enum anyway (it doesn't represent one of the values in the enum)
3282 2013-03-24 23:06:42 <CodeShark> enums are just ints with special symbols
3283 2013-03-24 23:07:36 johnsoft has joined
3284 2013-03-24 23:08:35 ymas has quit (Quit: resetting router)
3285 2013-03-24 23:08:56 jav__ has quit (Quit: Verlassend)
3286 2013-03-24 23:09:10 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3287 2013-03-24 23:11:08 knotwork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3288 2013-03-24 23:12:02 <qdii> math, anyone?
3289 2013-03-24 23:12:08 <qdii> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1682.0
3290 2013-03-24 23:12:14 <qdii> I donât understand the 2^32
3291 2013-03-24 23:12:23 <qdii> (despite the explanation)
3292 2013-03-24 23:12:39 <sipa> ;;calc 2**32
3293 2013-03-24 23:12:39 <gribble> 4294967296
3294 2013-03-24 23:12:47 <sipa> it means 2 to the power of 32
3295 2013-03-24 23:13:25 <qdii> lol
3296 2013-03-24 23:13:27 ielo has joined
3297 2013-03-24 23:13:37 <qdii> yea, I donât understand its presence in the equation
3298 2013-03-24 23:13:45 <sipa> there's nothing to understand
3299 2013-03-24 23:13:48 bernard75 has quit ()
3300 2013-03-24 23:13:51 <sipa> that's just how difficulty is defined
3301 2013-03-24 23:14:17 <sipa> difficulty 1 means you need 2^32 hashes for one block
3302 2013-03-24 23:14:23 <sipa> (well, approximately...)
3303 2013-03-24 23:15:30 Saberu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3304 2013-03-24 23:15:45 <CodeShark> expected number of hashes per block
3305 2013-03-24 23:15:53 Saberu has joined
3306 2013-03-24 23:18:03 <sipa> (it's actually 2^48/65535, but close enough)
3307 2013-03-24 23:18:27 Boydy has joined
3308 2013-03-24 23:21:33 <jgarzik> block versions: v1:58 v2:942
3309 2013-03-24 23:21:46 ThomasV_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3310 2013-03-24 23:21:53 Xeno-Genesis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3311 2013-03-24 23:22:46 <CodeShark> 8 more v1 blocks to evict. the sequence is now 1, 25, 27, 36, 39, 46, 50, *54*, 75, 78, 84
3312 2013-03-24 23:23:33 <sipa> CodeShark is turning into an announce bot!
3313 2013-03-24 23:23:45 <qdii> I canât connect the two ends: on the one end I have: difficulty = max_target / current_target, and max_target, and the other end you say "this is how difficulty is defined"
3314 2013-03-24 23:23:58 <qdii> s/end/hand
3315 2013-03-24 23:24:03 <sipa> qdii: ok, digging deeper
3316 2013-03-24 23:24:30 <sipa> qdii: it's true; difficulty is max_targer / current_target
3317 2013-03-24 23:24:45 <sipa> qdii: but max_target is equal to 2^256/2^32
3318 2013-03-24 23:24:51 <qdii> max target is sth like 0x00000000FFFFâ¦F
3319 2013-03-24 23:24:52 <qdii> ah ok
3320 2013-03-24 23:25:03 <sipa> which means that at target == max_target, you need around 2^32 hashes to find a block
3321 2013-03-24 23:25:26 <sipa> if target == max_target/2, you need 2*2^32 hash to find a block, and that's called difficulty 2
3322 2013-03-24 23:25:41 ripshy has joined
3323 2013-03-24 23:26:45 ThomasV_ has joined
3324 2013-03-24 23:27:48 <CodeShark> one more v1 block will set us back a whole 21 blocks...but two more v1 blocks will only set us back three additional blocks :)
3325 2013-03-24 23:28:14 <CodeShark> and three more v1 blocks will only set us back 6 beyond that
3326 2013-03-24 23:28:31 <CodeShark> so there's a very good chance we'll see 95% within 84 blocks
3327 2013-03-24 23:29:51 knotwork has joined
3328 2013-03-24 23:29:59 ripshy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3329 2013-03-24 23:30:32 <cadsII> hey guys, have any of you guys seen research on how reputations might be accounted or laws might be adjudicated in decentralized peer networks?
3330 2013-03-24 23:31:03 <cadsII> A paper I've seen has been http://works.bepress.com/robert_cooter/38/
3331 2013-03-24 23:31:19 <jgarzik> cadsII: reputations will always be bought and sold once they reach a certain value
3332 2013-03-24 23:31:19 Cory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3333 2013-03-24 23:31:31 mapppum has joined
3334 2013-03-24 23:31:32 Pasha has joined
3335 2013-03-24 23:31:49 <cadsII> jgarzik: I'd be willing to grant that premise
3336 2013-03-24 23:31:53 <cadsII> go on?
3337 2013-03-24 23:32:03 buddyrand has joined
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3339 2013-03-24 23:32:54 Muis_ has joined
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3341 2013-03-24 23:33:04 <jgarzik> cadsII: That's pretty much it :) Anonymous reputations will always be dropped once a negative reputation is achieved, because a zero reputation is better than a negative reputation. So, no incentive to work to rehabilitate a reputation, if it can be dropped easily.
3342 2013-03-24 23:33:10 <petertodd> cadsII: I've done some thinking on the topic: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=134827.0 and Mike Hearn (TD on IRC) has gone into even more depth. (he works for Google doing anti-spam stuff IIRC)
3343 2013-03-24 23:33:18 <cadsII> This question is relative to Dev because I believe BTC is uniquely positioned to be a platform for distributed reputation and law systems.
3344 2013-03-24 23:33:27 inlikeflynn has joined
3345 2013-03-24 23:33:29 <cadsII> s/relative/relevant*
3346 2013-03-24 23:33:31 MC1984_ has joined
3347 2013-03-24 23:33:32 CodeShar_ has joined
3348 2013-03-24 23:33:35 <jgarzik> cadsII: it always comes down to real world identity
3349 2013-03-24 23:33:50 <jgarzik> cadsII: you are you, and cannot shed that easily. that can be leveraged for reputation
3350 2013-03-24 23:34:00 <cadsII> I agree
3351 2013-03-24 23:34:00 BCBot` has joined
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3355 2013-03-24 23:34:18 Conflict_ has joined
3356 2013-03-24 23:34:34 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: well almost always, seems some people stick with negative reputations, e.g. supa.
3357 2013-03-24 23:34:36 SomeoneWeird has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3358 2013-03-24 23:34:47 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3359 2013-03-24 23:34:54 Orbixx_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3360 2013-03-24 23:34:59 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3361 2013-03-24 23:35:00 bVector has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3362 2013-03-24 23:35:05 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3363 2013-03-24 23:35:07 <jgarzik> cadsII: people can perform various "accreditations", where, e.g. an identity verification service could sign your pubkey, declaring with their own reputation and key that "cads is Mr. John Smith of Portland Oregon"
3364 2013-03-24 23:35:12 AtashiCon has quit (Disconnected by services)
3365 2013-03-24 23:35:14 McKay` has joined
3366 2013-03-24 23:35:15 <jgarzik> cadsII: that is decentralized
3367 2013-03-24 23:35:19 AtashiCon has joined
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3381 2013-03-24 23:35:45 <jgarzik> cadsII: and in the context of bots, the bots could come to trust identity services
3382 2013-03-24 23:35:48 mhanne_ has joined
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3391 2013-03-24 23:35:55 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: such accreditations make no sense âº
3392 2013-03-24 23:36:15 [\\\] has joined
3393 2013-03-24 23:36:16 <petertodd> jgarzik: https://github.com/petertodd/python-bitcoinlib/tree/pythonize is my work-in-proress, I've got the script (in)valid unit tests running, although I haven't fixed any failing ones. I'm going to experiment more and flesh out more pythonic API's, while still keeping things relatively close to bitcoin-qt
3394 2013-03-24 23:36:17 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: Sure they are. They happen in the real world every day.
3395 2013-03-24 23:36:18 yesminister has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3396 2013-03-24 23:36:21 area_ has joined
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3398 2013-03-24 23:36:30 rs0 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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3404 2013-03-24 23:36:30 Insu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3405 2013-03-24 23:36:31 banghouse3 has joined
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3407 2013-03-24 23:36:34 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: why not?
3408 2013-03-24 23:36:34 kikkerdril has joined
3409 2013-03-24 23:36:37 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: it tells you nothing about who the person is, just where they livre
3410 2013-03-24 23:36:39 <Luke-Jr> live*
3411 2013-03-24 23:36:39 Insu has joined
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3429 2013-03-24 23:36:44 EPiSKiNG has joined
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3434 2013-03-24 23:36:46 Toresh_ has joined
3435 2013-03-24 23:36:48 bad_duck has joined
3436 2013-03-24 23:36:48 * Luke-Jr stabs freenode
3437 2013-03-24 23:36:49 EPiSKiNG has quit (Changing host)
3438 2013-03-24 23:36:49 EPiSKiNG has joined
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3443 2013-03-24 23:36:55 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: You're micro-parsing again.
3444 2013-03-24 23:36:55 p8m has joined
3445 2013-03-24 23:36:57 theorb is now known as theorbtwo
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3447 2013-03-24 23:37:06 Pucilowski_ has joined
3448 2013-03-24 23:37:10 Phoebus has joined
3449 2013-03-24 23:37:10 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: perhaps they'll get a DNA sample too. :P
3450 2013-03-24 23:37:11 testnode9 has joined
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3452 2013-03-24 23:37:14 topace is now known as Guest12697
3453 2013-03-24 23:37:17 <Luke-Jr> maybe, I'm only getting like 5 lines of chat per screen at the moment
3454 2013-03-24 23:37:17 OneFixt has joined
3455 2013-03-24 23:37:20 nowan has joined
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3459 2013-03-24 23:37:36 Pasha is now known as Cory
3460 2013-03-24 23:37:42 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: whatever the level of verification you might want, it's more efficient to have an accrediter do it once and promise they did it right.
3461 2013-03-24 23:37:46 tg has joined
3462 2013-03-24 23:37:52 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: so how will they identify you?
3463 2013-03-24 23:37:52 Quetzalcoatl_ has joined
3464 2013-03-24 23:37:57 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: now, perhaps there is some verification that no one can doâ and yea sure accrediation doesn't help that.
3465 2013-03-24 23:37:57 david has joined
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3467 2013-03-24 23:38:12 brute has joined
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3469 2013-03-24 23:38:20 <Luke-Jr> it makes sense to say "this is the Gavin Andresen who made n% of commits to bitcoind from date to date"
3470 2013-03-24 23:38:22 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3471 2013-03-24 23:38:24 <Luke-Jr> that has a meaning
3472 2013-03-24 23:38:27 ikbenwouter has joined
3473 2013-03-24 23:38:28 <cadsII> I believe stable pseudonyms are enough to provide incentive to keep your reputation high.
3474 2013-03-24 23:38:37 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: maybe it will be like the old rules to get a passport, you must have two forms of ID and a sworn statement of personal knoweldge by a respected member of the community.
3475 2013-03-24 23:38:40 <Luke-Jr> cadsII: names and pseudonyms are the same thing
3476 2013-03-24 23:38:41 ByronJohnson has joined
3477 2013-03-24 23:38:41 SomeoneWeird is now known as Guest74311
3478 2013-03-24 23:38:57 <jgarzik> cadsII: that's incentive to keep reputation high, agreed. but that does not exclude reputation abandonment, by those negatives.
3479 2013-03-24 23:39:03 HiWEB_ has joined
3480 2013-03-24 23:39:05 Detritus has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3481 2013-03-24 23:39:05 techlife has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3482 2013-03-24 23:39:10 a_meteor has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3483 2013-03-24 23:39:16 etotheipi__ has joined
3484 2013-03-24 23:39:22 lonhx has joined
3485 2013-03-24 23:39:24 yesminister has joined
3486 2013-03-24 23:39:26 <petertodd> cadsII: One curious thing about non-reputation is often is has a significatn first-mover advantage: witness the silk road and the difficulty of starting silk road #2
3487 2013-03-24 23:39:26 jtimon_ has joined
3488 2013-03-24 23:39:29 <gmaxwell> cadsII: If you make it cheap for people to join your community (e.g. get a new name they can do something with) then abandonment will always be high. We see this all the time in OTC.
3489 2013-03-24 23:39:40 dolbi_ has joined
3490 2013-03-24 23:39:44 gbg_ has joined
3491 2013-03-24 23:39:44 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, luke-jr: it is whatever level of service is required. SitterCity.com provides "extended background checks" on nannies and babysitters.
3492 2013-03-24 23:39:53 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: and some kind of universal identifier the government assigns to people?
3493 2013-03-24 23:39:59 <cadsII> jgarzik: if you're negative and you leave and rejoin the network, you are granted a reputation jubilee - this is how IRC works today.
3494 2013-03-24 23:40:28 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, luke-jr: Other services inspect public and private records, including credit records, and ask you questions about yourself and your relatives. USAA asks me questions that only my _dad_ would know.
3495 2013-03-24 23:40:28 <cadsII> if you leave the net, come back, and are magically well behaved and can get acceptable rep, then great!
3496 2013-03-24 23:40:44 <jgarzik> Some automated services ask random questions about your past, from your credit report.
3497 2013-03-24 23:40:49 enquirer has joined
3498 2013-03-24 23:40:53 Beaph has joined
3499 2013-03-24 23:40:59 <cadsII> jgarzik: but this seldom happens :)
3500 2013-03-24 23:41:03 B0g4r7 has quit (Quit: B0g4r7)
3501 2013-03-24 23:41:06 <jgarzik> Some services trigger human private investigators.
3502 2013-03-24 23:41:10 Silox has joined
3503 2013-03-24 23:41:16 B0g4r7 has joined
3504 2013-03-24 23:41:17 stalled has joined
3505 2013-03-24 23:41:24 <jgarzik> (in the context of bots, APIs to hire P.I.'s already exists... yes they do :))
3506 2013-03-24 23:41:26 Raccoon has quit (Quit: á¡i'U~ž-6ÃzìÂQý{ÂãuÂø±AÃg&KÂ*Â)
3507 2013-03-24 23:41:27 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: credit reports are bogus
3508 2013-03-24 23:41:35 * jgarzik rolls eyes
3509 2013-03-24 23:41:49 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yea, USAA asking questions about my family is always a bit embarassing.
3510 2013-03-24 23:41:49 kikkerdril has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3511 2013-03-24 23:41:49 <cadsII> anyways, thanks for the ref, petertodd
3512 2013-03-24 23:41:52 devrandom has joined
3513 2013-03-24 23:41:57 Namjies is now known as Namworld_the_Glo
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3515 2013-03-24 23:42:15 asa1024z is now known as asa1024
3516 2013-03-24 23:42:15 <gmaxwell> "uh, heck if I know my dad's birthday... lemme find my calendar"
3517 2013-03-24 23:42:15 Toresh_ is now known as Toresh
3518 2013-03-24 23:42:19 <Luke-Jr> if I were asked questions from my credit report, I'd probably have to buy one to find out
3519 2013-03-24 23:42:23 <warren> dang, bad splits
3520 2013-03-24 23:42:26 xrns has joined
3521 2013-03-24 23:42:27 zoinky has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3522 2013-03-24 23:42:27 debiantoruser has joined
3523 2013-03-24 23:42:32 <gmaxwell> warren: Welcome to Freenode.
3524 2013-03-24 23:42:33 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
3525 2013-03-24 23:42:35 <Luke-Jr> USAA lets me pick my questions <.<
3526 2013-03-24 23:42:40 <warren> =D
3527 2013-03-24 23:42:54 <petertodd> gmaxwell: fuck, I gotta go call my mom... :P
3528 2013-03-24 23:42:57 aXs___ has joined
3529 2013-03-24 23:43:00 Ry4an_ has joined
3530 2013-03-24 23:43:04 <doublec> what is USAA?
3531 2013-03-24 23:43:08 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: last time I forgot my phone password they had a bunch of hard to ask questions.
3532 2013-03-24 23:43:12 <Luke-Jr> doublec: online bank
3533 2013-03-24 23:43:16 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: example: "When you lived at 1234 Main St, Atlanta GA, did you have a credit card from: (a) foo bank, (b) bar bank, (c) baz bank, (d) none of the above"
3534 2013-03-24 23:43:17 <Luke-Jr> that apparently lots of us use lol
3535 2013-03-24 23:43:18 Namworld_the_Glo is now known as \Namworld\
3536 2013-03-24 23:43:19 <warren> doublec: credit union where only military families can join
3537 2013-03-24 23:43:25 <doublec> ah ok. luckily things haven't hit that level of insane in NZ yet
3538 2013-03-24 23:43:30 <doublec> it'll probably happen though
3539 2013-03-24 23:43:31 techlife has joined
3540 2013-03-24 23:43:32 mungojel1y has joined
3541 2013-03-24 23:43:34 <gmaxwell> warren: their banking is open to everyone now.
3542 2013-03-24 23:43:39 <warren> oh!
3543 2013-03-24 23:43:41 \Namworld\ is now known as [Namworld]
3544 2013-03-24 23:43:42 brwyatt_ has joined
3545 2013-03-24 23:43:46 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: this is totally different from USAA security questions, which you can sometimes pick
3546 2013-03-24 23:43:48 <warren> when did that happen?
3547 2013-03-24 23:43:49 jercos_ has joined
3548 2013-03-24 23:43:49 <BTC_Bear> gmaxwell: there insurance isn't
3549 2013-03-24 23:43:53 <gmaxwell> warren: their insurance services are still FOFA military families.
3550 2013-03-24 23:44:12 addos has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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3574 2013-03-24 23:45:20 stalled has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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3576 2013-03-24 23:45:24 <gmaxwell> doublec: in particular, USAA is a not-for-profit and has insanly high customer satisfactionâ because they're generally quite good.
3577 2013-03-24 23:45:27 tsche has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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3595 2013-03-24 23:45:32 EricJ is now known as Guest15014
3596 2013-03-24 23:45:33 Phoebus is now known as Guest28442
3597 2013-03-24 23:45:36 HiWEB_ is now known as HiWEB
3598 2013-03-24 23:45:38 rs0 has joined
3599 2013-03-24 23:46:01 tsche has joined
3600 2013-03-24 23:46:03 * Luke-Jr seriously considers suggesting we chat on the old bitcoin irc network :/
3601 2013-03-24 23:46:04 Azelphur has joined
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3611 2013-03-24 23:46:12 <jgarzik> Ouch "176.74664535 BTC are ahead in queue, putting this user's payout after a 7 block delay."
3612 2013-03-24 23:46:14 rphlx has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3613 2013-03-24 23:46:21 TD has joined
3614 2013-03-24 23:46:29 Billdr has joined
3615 2013-03-24 23:46:30 Saberu has joined
3616 2013-03-24 23:46:32 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: Let's switch to something based on bitmessage-like
3617 2013-03-24 23:46:38 <sipa> ?
3618 2013-03-24 23:46:42 MiningBuddy has joined
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3620 2013-03-24 23:46:42 MiningBuddy has joined
3621 2013-03-24 23:46:44 Sanky has joined
3622 2013-03-24 23:46:48 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I'd gladly do a manual payout on demand for you :p
3623 2013-03-24 23:47:03 normanrichards has joined
3624 2013-03-24 23:47:08 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: though my guess is that you're just below 0.67 BTC due, so you'll bump up to the top soon enough
3625 2013-03-24 23:47:09 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: couldn't be any less reliable than this.
3626 2013-03-24 23:47:20 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: isnt the old irc down?
3627 2013-03-24 23:47:23 <BlueMatt> or was it just temporary?
3628 2013-03-24 23:47:24 mps has joined
3629 2013-03-24 23:47:25 [Namworld] is now known as Namworld
3630 2013-03-24 23:47:25 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: doubt it?
3631 2013-03-24 23:47:31 <doublec> bitmessage has pseudo mailing lists now. you can message an address that gets broadcast to all subscribers
3632 2013-03-24 23:47:32 cyphase_ has joined
3633 2013-03-24 23:47:43 <BlueMatt> it went down recently (and the admin let his personal domain registration lapse, so we cant email him...)
3634 2013-03-24 23:47:48 normanrichards has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
3635 2013-03-24 23:48:06 <Luke-Jr> hmm, it does seem down :/
3636 2013-03-24 23:48:11 <gmaxwell> doublec: are those messages encrypted so that you have to know the identity of the list to read them?
3637 2013-03-24 23:48:13 DBordello has joined
3638 2013-03-24 23:48:28 <BlueMatt> sounds like its time to rip out the irc seed code
3639 2013-03-24 23:48:32 one_zero has joined
3640 2013-03-24 23:48:34 <BlueMatt> it will never work again
3641 2013-03-24 23:48:34 <doublec> gmaxwell: yes
3642 2013-03-24 23:48:35 <jgarzik> sheesh. BTC Guild is finding all the blocks tonight.
3643 2013-03-24 23:48:43 <jgarzik> 20.6 TH
3644 2013-03-24 23:48:44 <jgarzik> !
3645 2013-03-24 23:48:46 <warren> BlueMatt: testnet seems to use it
3646 2013-03-24 23:48:47 <gmaxwell> doublec: spiffy.
3647 2013-03-24 23:48:53 techlife has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3648 2013-03-24 23:48:57 saivann has joined
3649 2013-03-24 23:48:57 kAntonio has joined
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3651 2013-03-24 23:48:57 tockitj has joined
3652 2013-03-24 23:48:57 dermoth_ has joined
3653 2013-03-24 23:48:58 <BlueMatt> someone wanna play taps?
3654 2013-03-24 23:49:03 <Luke-Jr> does BitMessage work without Twisted?
3655 2013-03-24 23:49:10 <gmaxwell> warren: it can't use what doesn't exist.
3656 2013-03-24 23:49:12 <doublec> gmaxwell: oh wait, no they're not. Sorry.
3657 2013-03-24 23:49:12 <TD> sipa: yep, it died again with 41 connections
3658 2013-03-24 23:49:17 <TD> sipa: including your patchset
3659 2013-03-24 23:49:21 <warren> oh!
3660 2013-03-24 23:49:23 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: poop
3661 2013-03-24 23:49:23 <TD> sipa: whatever the problem is, network buffers don't seem to be it
3662 2013-03-24 23:49:24 <petertodd> BlueMatt: it'd be good if someone steps up and makes a second testnet dns seed first
3663 2013-03-24 23:49:31 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: I wanted to use IRC as a test case for fork'ing in bitcoind
3664 2013-03-24 23:49:38 <doublec> gmaxwell: misunderstood. The owner of the list basically receives all messages and 'rebroadcasts' is how it works
3665 2013-03-24 23:49:40 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: as in, fork(2) off a process for IRC, for protection
3666 2013-03-24 23:49:41 <jgarzik> etc.
3667 2013-03-24 23:49:44 <doublec> and broadcasts are unencrypted
3668 2013-03-24 23:49:49 <BlueMatt> petertodd: well...it may be a bit late...
3669 2013-03-24 23:49:52 <sipa> TD: pretty sure that now (at least for me), it's a bug in the network changes
3670 2013-03-24 23:49:55 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: heh, well too late now
3671 2013-03-24 23:50:00 <TD> sipa: network changes?
3672 2013-03-24 23:50:06 <TD> ugh
3673 2013-03-24 23:50:14 * TD has spent the whole weekend sick :(
3674 2013-03-24 23:50:15 <sipa> TD: in #2409
3675 2013-03-24 23:50:19 <sipa> oh, you too?
3676 2013-03-24 23:50:30 <sipa> well, today was better :)
3677 2013-03-24 23:50:34 JStoker has joined
3678 2013-03-24 23:50:34 <petertodd> BlueMatt: heh, oh well, at least mine is redundent, but I'm a spof
3679 2013-03-24 23:50:39 <TD> sore throat, bloodshot eyes â¦. :(
3680 2013-03-24 23:50:40 * jgarzik had started working on that. IRC is pretty well isolated. It only needs a single addrman entry point. All other IRC logic, I was able to successfully isolate into a completely separate process.
3681 2013-03-24 23:50:42 rphlx has joined
3682 2013-03-24 23:50:46 <Luke-Jr> dunno if I'm sick, but I've been sneezing a lot
3683 2013-03-24 23:50:46 <TD> sipa: yeah but i'm seeing the same behaviour before your patch as after it
3684 2013-03-24 23:50:48 <jgarzik> wallet + RPC was another tempting fork92) target
3685 2013-03-24 23:50:53 <jgarzik> *fork(2)
3686 2013-03-24 23:50:54 <TD> it doesn't seem to have made any difference
3687 2013-03-24 23:50:54 <jgarzik> in bitcoind
3688 2013-03-24 23:50:59 dub has joined
3689 2013-03-24 23:50:59 <sipa> TD: right
3690 2013-03-24 23:51:06 * warren wonders how we're all on the non-bouncing side of the split.
3691 2013-03-24 23:51:10 <sipa> Luke-Jr: IRC is clearly contagious
3692 2013-03-24 23:51:13 <jgarzik> as in, fork RPC+wallet versus "everything else" process
3693 2013-03-24 23:51:26 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: thats a very good split...
3694 2013-03-24 23:51:27 <jgarzik> even doable in Windows, with CreateProcess and pipes
3695 2013-03-24 23:51:48 <gmaxwell> making it so that private keys never touch memory that the network facing side has access to would be a nice step forward.
3696 2013-03-24 23:52:03 <jgarzik> fork-like Windows behavior: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/edze9h7e%28v=vs.80%29.aspx
3697 2013-03-24 23:52:09 <petertodd> jgarzik: Oh, I know, you should port the IRC peer gathering code to bitmessage!
3698 2013-03-24 23:52:32 Boydy has quit (Quit: Erection reset by beer.)
3699 2013-03-24 23:52:46 <gmaxwell> IRC would be a lot easier.
3700 2013-03-24 23:52:54 <gmaxwell> petertodd: but how do you get bitmessage peers.
3701 2013-03-24 23:53:04 <gmaxwell> oh hey if IRC is busted then I bet a lot of altcoins are toast.
3702 2013-03-24 23:53:05 <petertodd> gmaxwell: bitmessage can use Bitcoin to find peers
3703 2013-03-24 23:53:12 <sipa> petertodd: LOL!
3704 2013-03-24 23:53:42 <sipa> "it's not centralized, it's mutually recursive!"
3705 2013-03-24 23:53:47 <TD> ugh. people are bombing the banks in cyprus now
3706 2013-03-24 23:53:56 <gmaxwell> "In this paper we present klinenetworks a mutually recursive peer to peer system for decenteralization"
3707 2013-03-24 23:54:06 <jgarzik> Block version lock-in update: v1:57 v2:943
3708 2013-03-24 23:54:26 mps has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
3709 2013-03-24 23:55:13 cyphase_ has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
3710 2013-03-24 23:55:14 phma_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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3713 2013-03-24 23:55:22 twobitcoins has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3714 2013-03-24 23:55:26 <petertodd> gmaxwell: We should add bootstrap code that plays a mating call on your PC speaker and uses your microphone to listen to a response, maybe this could be used as the call: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
3715 2013-03-24 23:55:34 phma_ has joined
3716 2013-03-24 23:55:42 tsche has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
3717 2013-03-24 23:55:47 <sipa> is that what expect it to be?
3718 2013-03-24 23:55:51 * sipa clicks
3719 2013-03-24 23:55:57 <sipa> yup!
3720 2013-03-24 23:56:06 ForceMajeure has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3721 2013-03-24 23:56:09 <gmaxwell> Saved by the video only working if you have flash.
3722 2013-03-24 23:56:09 <kinlo> I expected the lock in to happen sooner, 7 blocks should be about 1 hour...
3723 2013-03-24 23:56:10 ripshy has joined
3724 2013-03-24 23:56:19 david is now known as dmp1ce
3725 2013-03-24 23:56:23 twobitcoins has joined
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3729 2013-03-24 23:56:49 <petertodd> sipa: We can use this one instead if you want: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fNJZ67roTM
3730 2013-03-24 23:56:56 Beaph is now known as Beef
3731 2013-03-24 23:56:56 <doublec> gmaxwell: some of the alts are impacted, definitely. mostly the older ones
3732 2013-03-24 23:57:06 RBecker is now known as rbecker
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3734 2013-03-24 23:57:08 Beef has quit (Changing host)
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3736 2013-03-24 23:57:12 OneFixt has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
3737 2013-03-24 23:57:14 <sipa> petertodd: definitely prefer the first
3738 2013-03-24 23:57:17 darkskiez has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
3739 2013-03-24 23:57:22 rbecker is now known as RBecker
3740 2013-03-24 23:57:28 joshsm_ has joined
3741 2013-03-24 23:57:29 <petertodd> sipa: pff, human
3742 2013-03-24 23:57:35 normanrichards has joined
3743 2013-03-24 23:57:36 <sytse> TD: meh
3744 2013-03-24 23:57:38 deadweasel has quit (Disconnected by services)
3745 2013-03-24 23:57:46 darkskiez has joined
3746 2013-03-24 23:57:53 <sipa> petertodd: also a good option: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH2-TGUlwu4
3747 2013-03-24 23:58:02 gartenstuhl has joined
3748 2013-03-24 23:58:08 Jere_Jones has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3749 2013-03-24 23:58:09 rphlx has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3750 2013-03-24 23:58:09 panzer has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3751 2013-03-24 23:58:09 joshsm has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3752 2013-03-24 23:58:29 OneFixt has joined
3753 2013-03-24 23:58:30 <petertodd> sipa: The strong rythm should aid mutual clock syncronization between nodes.
3754 2013-03-24 23:58:36 Someguy123 has joined
3755 2013-03-24 23:58:45 Tron-_ has joined
3756 2013-03-24 23:58:45 <sipa> petertodd: we should try to avoid positive feedback loops
3757 2013-03-24 23:58:49 <Luke-Jr> what were we talking about before trying to find alternatives for freenode?
3758 2013-03-24 23:58:52 <doublec> kinlo: depends where the existing v1 blocks are placed in the queue
3759 2013-03-24 23:59:16 Jere_Jones has joined
3760 2013-03-24 23:59:16 Jere_Jones has quit (Changing host)
3761 2013-03-24 23:59:16 Jere_Jones has joined
3762 2013-03-24 23:59:25 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: We were trying to avoid mentioning fidelity bonds, especially fidelity bonded distributed hash tables.
3763 2013-03-24 23:59:53 ThomasV_ has quit (Quit: Quitte)