1 2013-03-25 00:00:02 <sipa> surely you mean fidelity bonded _cloud_ distributed hash tables?
   2 2013-03-25 00:00:20 <petertodd> sipa: nah, the next step is fidelity bonded dht's with proof of stake
   3 2013-03-25 00:00:23 <kinlo> doublec: true... haven't gone over the entire blocklist yet
   4 2013-03-25 00:00:30 <jrmithdobbs> wow freenode is fucked right now
   5 2013-03-25 00:00:39 <kinlo> and still the v1 and v2 blocks don't add up
   6 2013-03-25 00:00:46 <kinlo> lemme see why it is now
   7 2013-03-25 00:00:55 enquirer2 has joined
   8 2013-03-25 00:01:31 <kinlo> hmmmz, must be race condition, all blocks in db are 1 or 2
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  12 2013-03-25 00:02:26 <gmaxwell> sipa: FBCDHT has webscale.
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  14 2013-03-25 00:02:26 <sytse> all this talk makes me think
  15 2013-03-25 00:02:30 <sytse> is bitcoin a democracy?
  16 2013-03-25 00:02:35 <sipa> no
  17 2013-03-25 00:02:38 <sytse> do we need a Bitcoin Constitution?
  18 2013-03-25 00:02:50 <gmaxwell> We have one, it's called the software/protocol/rules.
  19 2013-03-25 00:02:53 smiddi has joined
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  21 2013-03-25 00:03:13 <warren> sytse: more like a bible.  Fundamentalist follow Satoshi's word because he was infallible (except when he wasn't).
  22 2013-03-25 00:03:14 jotik has joined
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  25 2013-03-25 00:03:24 <sytse> warren: \o/
  26 2013-03-25 00:03:33 godless_ has joined
  27 2013-03-25 00:03:49 <sytse> warren: and the altcoins write their own addendums
  28 2013-03-25 00:03:52 stretchw_ has joined
  29 2013-03-25 00:03:55 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2411 good bye old friend
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  38 2013-03-25 00:05:53 <sipa> BlueMatt: nice!
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  43 2013-03-25 00:06:12 <gmaxwell> warren: I didn't mean that in an abstract sense. I mean it concretely. The rules of the protocol are constitutional ones, they're what define the system. (and sometimes they're broken and get fixed, no biggie)
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  47 2013-03-25 00:06:53 <warren> I was being sarcastic.
  48 2013-03-25 00:06:57 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: what, we're not going to change it to use #bitcoin-dev on freenode instead? for as useful as the channel is right now…
  49 2013-03-25 00:07:11 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: heh
  50 2013-03-25 00:07:11 bVector has joined
  51 2013-03-25 00:07:13 <sipa> IRC is outdated
  52 2013-03-25 00:07:17 dooglus_ has joined
  53 2013-03-25 00:07:18 <sipa> can we make it seed using facebook?
  54 2013-03-25 00:07:22 digitalmagus2 has joined
  55 2013-03-25 00:07:33 <warren> nodes friend each other
  56 2013-03-25 00:07:34 <petertodd> Pff, make it seed by portscanning the IPv4 address space.
  57 2013-03-25 00:08:00 kjj has joined
  58 2013-03-25 00:08:12 <BlueMatt> I would say google+, but that will probably just be dropped unceremoniously (reader....)
  59 2013-03-25 00:08:12 <petertodd> warren: https://twitter.com/blockheaders
  60 2013-03-25 00:08:12 EasyAt has joined
  61 2013-03-25 00:08:12 <sipa> petertodd: ! http://internetcensus2012.bitbucket.org/paper.html
  62 2013-03-25 00:08:17 <sipa> BlueMatt: haha
  63 2013-03-25 00:08:22 <petertodd> sipa: Yeah, I'm scared that effort actually worked...
  64 2013-03-25 00:08:30 <warren> Wouldn't getting a seed from tor be a decentralized way to do this?
  65 2013-03-25 00:08:44 <sipa> warren: how?
  66 2013-03-25 00:08:45 <petertodd> sipa: I mean, the portscan is the easy part, but the number of nodes they hijacked with default passwords, sheesh.
  67 2013-03-25 00:08:51 <gmaxwell> warren: tor is not a decenteralized system, nor does it provide that service in any case.
  68 2013-03-25 00:08:56 knotwork_ has joined
  69 2013-03-25 00:09:27 <warren> I mean, as long as tor exists, a hidden service URI would work.
  70 2013-03-25 00:09:42 <sipa> who would run it?
  71 2013-03-25 00:09:42 <warren> uh...
  72 2013-03-25 00:09:43 <petertodd> warren: Doesn't provide any advantages because the URL is still centralized.
  73 2013-03-25 00:10:04 <sipa> even if anonymous at best, it will be centralized
  74 2013-03-25 00:10:42 topace has joined
  75 2013-03-25 00:10:44 <gmaxwell> I'm wondering what interesting definition of decenteralized you're using!
  76 2013-03-25 00:10:45 enquirer2 has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
  77 2013-03-25 00:10:51 <warren> any more centralized than a particular IRC seed?
  78 2013-03-25 00:10:51 tsche has joined
  79 2013-03-25 00:10:53 <sipa> no; but also not less
  80 2013-03-25 00:10:53 <warren> ok
  81 2013-03-25 00:10:53 <TD> ip multicast :)
  82 2013-03-25 00:10:58 valparaiso_ has joined
  83 2013-03-25 00:11:00 <warren> Screw this, launch a seed satellite.
  84 2013-03-25 00:11:00 <petertodd> hmm... with jgarzik's UDP portscanning the internet would probably only take half a million packets to find your first node
  85 2013-03-25 00:11:01 <BlueMatt> for the record, I take back my comment...solar didnt let his domain registration lapse, we could theoretically email him and get lfnet brought back...
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  93 2013-03-25 00:13:25 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I think we need an addnode gui interface to replace irc. :P ... at least some kind of oh crap all the DNS seeds are dead mechenism.
  94 2013-03-25 00:13:43 * BlueMatt facepalm
  95 2013-03-25 00:14:29 <BlueMatt> but...but my dnsseed will never go down!
  96 2013-03-25 00:15:21 valparaiso_ is now known as valparaiso
  97 2013-03-25 00:15:21 stretchw_ is now known as stretchwarren
  98 2013-03-25 00:15:32 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: nah, fuck it, kill it
  99 2013-03-25 00:15:34 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: noone should be running bitcoinds old enough that actually have that enabled by default anyways (I know they are, not the point, they shouldn't be)
 100 2013-03-25 00:15:39 <sipa> never i tell you!
 101 2013-03-25 00:15:42 <sipa> never!
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 112 2013-03-25 00:16:19 <petertodd> BM-Bc71gj5RiNhCvi8Rw7Vb8Aah5mrf7VrM <- anyone wanna try my test bitmessage addr?
 113 2013-03-25 00:16:24 * gmaxwell checks to see if bitmessage works for him now
 114 2013-03-25 00:16:36 tockitj has joined
 115 2013-03-25 00:16:41 <jrmithdobbs> did they fix it to not use rsa yet?
 116 2013-03-25 00:16:44 <jrmithdobbs> because jesus fuck
 117 2013-03-25 00:16:53 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: they did!
 118 2013-03-25 00:17:45 <jrmithdobbs> oh? might be time to look at it again then!
 119 2013-03-25 00:17:46 <gmaxwell> nope. still doesn't work with xmonad.
 120 2013-03-25 00:18:02 <petertodd> gmaxwell: really? 'cause I'm on xmonad too
 121 2013-03-25 00:18:09 <sipa> !hi5
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 123 2013-03-25 00:19:02 <gmaxwell> petertodd: hm. it tries to create a window and then closes it. It works if I start another xserver with fvwm.
 124 2013-03-25 00:19:07 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ah, what's your addr?
 125 2013-03-25 00:19:07 Perlboy has quit (Ping timeout: 257 seconds)
 126 2013-03-25 00:19:32 <warren> last night I was playing with testnet and it couldn't find any seed for a while
 127 2013-03-25 00:19:38 <warren> on the android app
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 132 2013-03-25 00:20:09 <petertodd> warren: Ah, the app is probably still on IRC - I don't think bitcoinj knows about my testnet seed.
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 139 2013-03-25 00:20:25 <BlueMatt> Im not sure if bitcoinj ever got irc support
 140 2013-03-25 00:20:25 <jrmithdobbs> they have os x binaries yet?
 141 2013-03-25 00:20:27 brson has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 142 2013-03-25 00:23:45 <warren> does freenode have any policy against using it for a seed?
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 147 2013-03-25 00:24:15 <petertodd> BlueMatt: yup, it does IRC
 148 2013-03-25 00:24:15 <petertodd> BlueMatt: doesn't have my testnet seed
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 150 2013-03-25 00:24:16 <gmaxwell> warren: freenode asked us to move off of it eons ago, bitcoin was originally in #bitcoin here.
 151 2013-03-25 00:24:16 zeiris has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 152 2013-03-25 00:24:16 nexes has joined
 153 2013-03-25 00:24:16 <warren> ah
 154 2013-03-25 00:24:16 <gmaxwell> warren: every once in a while you can see an old node join there.
 155 2013-03-25 00:24:17 <sipa> wasn't there a #bitcoin-public or so, instead of #bitcoin for a long time?
 156 2013-03-25 00:24:17 hsmiths2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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 158 2013-03-25 00:24:17 <jrmithdobbs> do you know the reason it wasn't moved to a stable network instead of a random tiny one
 159 2013-03-25 00:24:18 zeiris has joined
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 161 2013-03-25 00:24:18 <jrmithdobbs> eg, if it'd just move to efnet it'd never die
 162 2013-03-25 00:24:18 <jrmithdobbs> no matter if it should or not
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 165 2013-03-25 00:24:18 <BlueMatt> it wasnt just a random tiny network, it was bitcoin's own network
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 168 2013-03-25 00:24:19 <sipa> lfnet basically got repurposed for bitcoin :)
 169 2013-03-25 00:24:19 <warren> seems odd to have any centralized dependency at all. there's really no better way to do this?
 170 2013-03-25 00:24:19 techlife has joined
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 172 2013-03-25 00:24:19 <jrmithdobbs> even worse
 173 2013-03-25 00:24:19 <petertodd> warren: Seriously, portscanning the internet is the closest thing we have to a better way, and that's an awful idea.
 174 2013-03-25 00:24:19 ducch has joined
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 176 2013-03-25 00:24:19 <petertodd> warren: Bitcoin comes with a manually updated list of seed nodes.
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 178 2013-03-25 00:24:19 <jrmithdobbs> warren: efnet is as close to decentralized you get with irc at least ;p
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 199 2013-03-25 00:25:13 <warren> "some"  network connectivity issues
 200 2013-03-25 00:25:26 HiWEB has joined
 201 2013-03-25 00:25:30 ForceMajeure has joined
 202 2013-03-25 00:26:10 <cadsII> Hey guys, who in the BTC community knows how to author a paper and get it peer reviewed and published?
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 206 2013-03-25 00:27:00 * cadsII is anticipating that we may have some grads and postdocs.
 207 2013-03-25 00:28:09 <BlueMatt> can we add an addition to the status message that say "please dont ask for specifically what you think you want, but give us a general idea of wtf you are trying to do"?
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 211 2013-03-25 00:28:30 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I wish I had a compact way to say that.
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 216 2013-03-25 00:28:58 <TheSeven> BlueMatt: +1
 217 2013-03-25 00:29:13 <gmaxwell> "Don't ask us how to prevent yourself from choking on yak hair, first tell us why you think you need to shave the yak."
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 222 2013-03-25 00:29:22 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: "What are you trying to do? NOT How do you want to do it"
 223 2013-03-25 00:29:41 davvblack has joined
 224 2013-03-25 00:29:44 jimbit has joined
 225 2013-03-25 00:29:44 <warren> but first they need to ask for permission to ask
 226 2013-03-25 00:29:51 <TheSeven> lol
 227 2013-03-25 00:30:04 <jrmithdobbs> if you pretend english is some kind of fucked boolean logic syntax, anyways
 228 2013-03-25 00:30:07 dust-otc has joined
 229 2013-03-25 00:30:28 <gmaxwell> I shouldn't complain too much, I mean the people who reach nothing and ask questions are just as bad.   "Can I ask you permission to ask where I can get bitcoin software from?"
 230 2013-03-25 00:30:32 WKNiGHT- has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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 237 2013-03-25 00:30:58 <gmaxwell> s/reach/research/  (dunno how I made that error)
 238 2013-03-25 00:31:00 <davvblack> Does anyone have an opinion as to the 'best' server-side python Bitcoin software?  It needs to be able to be notified of incoming transactions, send outgoing transactions, and have some notion of confirmations (and ideally things like alerts for forked block chain)
 239 2013-03-25 00:31:57 <gmaxwell> davvblack: what is the application?  "server" doesn't tell me much.
 240 2013-03-25 00:32:00 lonhx has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 241 2013-03-25 00:32:10 ForceMajeure has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 242 2013-03-25 00:32:14 <sipa> it needs to serve!
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 244 2013-03-25 00:32:30 <davvblack> An oversimplification would be to call it a gambling site:  Bitcoins in, bitcoins out, no 'product' but entertainment.
 245 2013-03-25 00:32:41 <davvblack> webserver running on an amazon EC2 instance
 246 2013-03-25 00:32:42 <davvblack> Django application
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 249 2013-03-25 00:33:06 <davvblack> MySQL but may move to nosql for scalability (but v1.0 of the app will just use django's ORM)
 250 2013-03-25 00:33:13 <gmaxwell> There is no python bitcoin software I can recommend for something that people might attack where the consequences of the attack might matter.
 251 2013-03-25 00:33:15 <TheSeven> oh noes, not yet another satoshidice :/
 252 2013-03-25 00:33:23 <davvblack> not satoshidice
 253 2013-03-25 00:33:32 <davvblack> and i won't use the blockchain for mesaging
 254 2013-03-25 00:33:38 <davvblack> because i'm not an asshole :)
 255 2013-03-25 00:33:40 ForceMajeure has joined
 256 2013-03-25 00:33:59 <sipa> why oh why does everyone want to create gambling sites? :p
 257 2013-03-25 00:34:03 <lianj> davvblack: thank you
 258 2013-03-25 00:34:06 <davvblack> Yea, it would definitely be 'worth attacking', so a fair portion of the server-coins would be held in cold storage
 259 2013-03-25 00:34:20 <sipa> must have something to do with this concept of 'profit' i guess
 260 2013-03-25 00:34:24 <davvblack> uh, this site will be quite a bit different than just boring gambling, that's just the easiest metaphor for technical requirements.
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 263 2013-03-25 00:34:30 <lianj> sipa: the minecraft casino is somewhat nice
 264 2013-03-25 00:34:42 <gmaxwell> sipa: because they see the forum posts where its claimed that one sit or another has made 100k btc with the crappiest site conceavable.
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 269 2013-03-25 00:35:25 <davvblack> So how is there no good python software?  Should I study the actual bitcoin messaging language then?  Is there any in-process project to make a good python API?
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 272 2013-03-25 00:36:00 <gmaxwell> davvblack: The reference software has a JSON rpc you can use from any language.
 273 2013-03-25 00:36:22 <gmaxwell> davvblack: I thought you were stipulating that the software had to be in python.
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 281 2013-03-25 00:36:46 <davvblack> no, just easily accessible from python.  I'll look in that direction, thanks.
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 286 2013-03-25 00:36:57 <davvblack> so i would just run bitcoind on the server and hook into it?
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 291 2013-03-25 00:37:28 <lianj> using its json rpc api, yes
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 293 2013-03-25 00:37:48 <davvblack> thanks.  I'll study that then.
 294 2013-03-25 00:37:52 WKNiGHT- is now known as WKNiGHT
 295 2013-03-25 00:37:56 <davvblack> Also i swear to god i'm not cloning satoshidice :)
 296 2013-03-25 00:38:01 <davvblack> it will actually be interesting.
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 302 2013-03-25 00:39:11 <BlueMatt> yes! the other guy who gm tab-completes to left!
 303 2013-03-25 00:39:20 <BlueMatt> (sorry gmatteson_, but it was really annoying)
 304 2013-03-25 00:39:23 <sipa> BlueMatt: here's how many people two whom it applies will read this: http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3sajk5/
 305 2013-03-25 00:39:28 <sipa> *to
 306 2013-03-25 00:39:32 <davvblack> heh
 307 2013-03-25 00:40:18 <BlueMatt> sipa: well I also rephrased the "#bitcoin-dev : Development of bitcoin protocol/clients" so that we will stop getting the "can I discuss the creation of a webapp using bitcoin on here?" question
 308 2013-03-25 00:40:30 <sipa> gut
 309 2013-03-25 00:40:59 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: but now it's not clear that mining dev is okay too :p
 310 2013-03-25 00:41:23 <BlueMatt> yay, lets have a long and in-depth discussion of the status message!
 311 2013-03-25 00:41:29 <lianj> :>
 312 2013-03-25 00:41:30 OneMiner_ has joined
 313 2013-03-25 00:41:59 <gmaxwell> how about "#bitcoin-dev : Development of bitcoin status messages" :P
 314 2013-03-25 00:42:09 * BlueMatt votes that we move to a network that lets us have a longer status message so that we can put in a whole essay
 315 2013-03-25 00:42:09 <gmaxwell> but more seriously: "#bitcoin-dev : Development of bitcoin infrastructure"
 316 2013-03-25 00:42:19 <sipa> #bitcoin-dev-status-discuss
 317 2013-03-25 00:42:22 <Scrat> shut this channel down, open #bitcoin-dht
 318 2013-03-25 00:42:30 zeiris_ has joined
 319 2013-03-25 00:42:30 <petertodd> Seriously guys, if we let the #bitcoin-dev status message get too large bitcoin will become centralized!
 320 2013-03-25 00:42:33 kinlo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 321 2013-03-25 00:42:34 <davvblack> infrastructure is a good concise way to put it if you are deliberately trying to include web apps.
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 330 2013-03-25 00:43:14 <petertodd> davvblack: One problem is infrastructure kinda sounds like "services" to newbies.
 331 2013-03-25 00:43:29 kadoban has joined
 332 2013-03-25 00:43:41 <davvblack> so where should developing services be discussed?
 333 2013-03-25 00:43:42 keystroke has joined
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 335 2013-03-25 00:44:01 <petertodd> davvblack: #bitcoin-app-dev?
 336 2013-03-25 00:44:18 <davvblack> there's .2% as many people there as here
 337 2013-03-25 00:44:18 <keystroke> looks like the v2 transition is going to be done cleanly
 338 2013-03-25 00:44:23 <keystroke> good news for future forks
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 342 2013-03-25 00:45:03 <lianj> i never tried a different one than -dev. wonder if i should give them a try, or are they like the forum?
 343 2013-03-25 00:45:04 <sipa> keystroke: how far are we?
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 346 2013-03-25 00:45:06 <keystroke> 94.2%
 347 2013-03-25 00:45:43 <keystroke> if no more v1, the transition will happen at block 227951
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 363 2013-03-25 00:50:40 <saivann_> The rest of the improvements in that pull request most probably don't really require to be reviewed.
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 386 2013-03-25 00:54:29 <gmaxwell> saivann_: rather than saying it should be exactly the same, you could instead offer  "Try to avoid changing the meaning of any statements. If you need to change the meaning of anything, make a note of it and list that in the pull request."
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 390 2013-03-25 00:54:47 <saivann_> gmaxwell : That sounds good
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 410 2013-03-25 00:56:06 <gmaxwell> saivann_: One thing I've found is that if you tell someone they cannot do something they'll hid it if they feel they need to; but if you tell them that they can but they need to disclose it... they'll often disclose.
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 420 2013-03-25 00:56:11 <saivann_> gmaxwell : Ha..!! I see, that makes sense
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 472 2013-03-25 01:03:10 <jgarzik> v1:57  v2:943
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 514 2013-03-25 01:12:01 <jgarzik> v1:57  v2:943
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 541 2013-03-25 01:12:35 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: so...it hasnt changed?
 542 2013-03-25 01:12:38 kantlive- has joined
 543 2013-03-25 01:12:40 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: or is that a script?
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 559 2013-03-25 01:13:05 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: I am manually running a verification script, after every couple blocks
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 566 2013-03-25 01:14:20 <CodeShar_> 7 more v1 blocks to evict: the sequence is now 9, 11, 20, 23, 30, 34, *38*, 59, 62, 68, 79
 567 2013-03-25 01:14:32 BlueMattBot has quit ()
 568 2013-03-25 01:14:43 <CodeShar_> if no more v1 blocks, we get to 95% in 38 blocks
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 572 2013-03-25 01:15:26 OneMiner_ is now known as OneMiner
 573 2013-03-25 01:15:32 <gmaxwell> how long ago was the last v1?
 574 2013-03-25 01:15:50 <CodeShar_> 227835
 575 2013-03-25 01:16:01 tgrewyrew has joined
 576 2013-03-25 01:16:01 <gmaxwell> ;;bc,blocks
 577 2013-03-25 01:16:01 <gribble> 227892
 578 2013-03-25 01:16:04 JStoker has joined
 579 2013-03-25 01:16:46 <tgrewyrew> http://redd.it/1ay1b1 buy50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
 580 2013-03-25 01:16:46 <tgrewyrew> http://redd.it/1ay1b1 buy50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
 581 2013-03-25 01:16:46 <tgrewyrew> http://redd.it/1ay1b1 buy50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
 582 2013-03-25 01:16:47 <tgrewyrew> http://redd.it/1ay1b1 buy50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
 583 2013-03-25 01:16:47 <tgrewyrew> http://redd.it/1ay1b1 buy50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
 584 2013-03-25 01:16:48 <tgrewyrew> http://redd.it/1ay1b1 buy50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
 585 2013-03-25 01:16:48 <tgrewyrew> http://redd.it/1ay1b1 buy50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
 586 2013-03-25 01:16:48 <tgrewyrew> http://redd.it/1ay1b1 buy50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
 587 2013-03-25 01:16:49 <tgrewyrew> http://redd.it/1ay1b1 buy50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
 588 2013-03-25 01:16:50 <tgrewyrew> http://redd.it/1ay1b1 buy50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
 589 2013-03-25 01:16:50 <tgrewyrew> http://redd.it/1ay1b1 buy50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
 590 2013-03-25 01:16:50 <tgrewyrew> http://redd.it/1ay1b1 buy50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
 591 2013-03-25 01:16:50 <tgrewyrew> http://redd.it/1ay1b1 buy50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
 592 2013-03-25 01:16:51 <tgrewyrew> http://redd.it/1ay1b1 buy50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
 593 2013-03-25 01:16:51 <tgrewyrew> http://redd.it/1ay1b1 buy50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
 594 2013-03-25 01:16:51 <tgrewyrew> http://redd.it/1ay1b1 buy50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
 595 2013-03-25 01:17:07 * sipa slow
 596 2013-03-25 01:17:22 <CodeShar_> ya gotta be quicker on the trigger, boy
 597 2013-03-25 01:17:29 <sipa> *pang*
 598 2013-03-25 01:17:53 <gmaxwell> how'd he know I'd just gotten up?
 599 2013-03-25 01:19:44 <jgarzik> I think ";;kban foo" works better, if you have gribble perms
 600 2013-03-25 01:19:57 <jgarzik> lets gribble manage the ban list
 601 2013-03-25 01:21:32 <jgarzik> BTW,
 602 2013-03-25 01:21:33 realSipa has joined
 603 2013-03-25 01:21:43 <jgarzik> Here is my public bitmessage address: git://github.com/Bitmessage/PyBitmessage.git
 604 2013-03-25 01:21:49 <jgarzik> grrr
 605 2013-03-25 01:21:52 <jgarzik> BM-BcePU5tPiRQyELax43BHV5X6xBN9KR7F
 606 2013-03-25 01:22:15 <petertodd> sent
 607 2013-03-25 01:22:23 <petertodd> jgarzik: sent
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 619 2013-03-25 01:25:37 * jgarzik waits patiently for bitmessage to stop (and then be restarted).  Wanted to log somewhere other than console.  Now we are just spinning the NFS server like mad.
 620 2013-03-25 01:26:00 peter_167263 has joined
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 624 2013-03-25 01:27:04 <sipa1024> what did i miss?
 625 2013-03-25 01:27:07 <jgarzik> petertodd: received
 626 2013-03-25 01:27:14 <jgarzik> sipa1024: nothing yet
 627 2013-03-25 01:27:22 <jgarzik> playing with bitmessage
 628 2013-03-25 01:27:23 BlueMattBot has joined
 629 2013-03-25 01:27:26 <sipa1024> ok
 630 2013-03-25 01:27:39 intx_ has joined
 631 2013-03-25 01:27:55 <petertodd>  jgarzik: cool, reply!
 632 2013-03-25 01:28:14 d4de_ has joined
 633 2013-03-25 01:28:18 <doublec> this is mine: BM-BbwusEFHr8ZndbShVXEsbGMbvQ2qBiSh
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 643 2013-03-25 01:29:27 <sipa> eh
 644 2013-03-25 01:29:27 <sipa> are we half-split?
 645 2013-03-25 01:29:27 <sipa> my alter ego just saw jgarzik say something
 646 2013-03-25 01:29:27 sipa has left ()
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 656 2013-03-25 01:29:41 <sipa1024> ha!
 657 2013-03-25 01:29:44 sipa1024 is now known as sipa
 658 2013-03-25 01:29:46 <gmaxwell> omg. freenode is forking!
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 667 2013-03-25 01:29:53 gartenstuhl has joined
 668 2013-03-25 01:30:04 <sipa> 02:00:49 <@sipa> eh
 669 2013-03-25 01:30:04 <sipa> 02:00:57 <@sipa> are we half-split?
 670 2013-03-25 01:30:04 <sipa> 02:01:13 <@sipa> my alter ego just saw jgarzik say something
 671 2013-03-25 01:30:05 <petertodd> shit, lets gets the pool ops in IRC stat!
 672 2013-03-25 01:30:07 Someguy1234 has joined
 673 2013-03-25 01:30:12 <sipa> 02:07:46 <@sipa> eh
 674 2013-03-25 01:30:12 <sipa> 02:07:46 <@sipa> are we half-split?
 675 2013-03-25 01:30:12 <sipa> 02:07:47 <@sipa> my alter ego just saw jgarzik say something
 676 2013-03-25 01:30:23 * sipa is seeing flashes from the past
 677 2013-03-25 01:30:36 * sipa wonders whether it was the same cat
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 680 2013-03-25 01:30:53 Someguy1234 is now known as Someguy123
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 683 2013-03-25 01:31:01 Phrausted has joined
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 686 2013-03-25 01:31:25 Phrausted is now known as Phraust
 687 2013-03-25 01:31:27 <jgarzik> doublec: bitmessage address added :)
 688 2013-03-25 01:31:52 <jgarzik> now bitmessage just needs IRC channels
 689 2013-03-25 01:32:05 <jgarzik> though I'm not yet convinced I buy their scaling argument
 690 2013-03-25 01:32:12 <petertodd> what is their scaling argument?
 691 2013-03-25 01:32:12 <jgarzik> it does help hide traffic though
 692 2013-03-25 01:32:12 <sipa> which is?
 693 2013-03-25 01:32:22 bitcoinbulletin has joined
 694 2013-03-25 01:32:24 bVector has joined
 695 2013-03-25 01:32:35 <jgarzik> all nodes broadcast all messages.  once a threshold is reached, break into separate streams.
 696 2013-03-25 01:32:42 Benjojo has joined
 697 2013-03-25 01:32:53 <petertodd> well, it's not crazy...
 698 2013-03-25 01:33:00 <petertodd> what's the threshold?
 699 2013-03-25 01:33:05 <petertodd> kinda DHT like...
 700 2013-03-25 01:33:10 techlife has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 701 2013-03-25 01:33:42 <gmaxwell> The idea is that the POW costs depends on the streams traffic I thought— so the idea is that you move to smaller anonymity sets because its cheaper.
 702 2013-03-25 01:34:03 Detritus has joined
 703 2013-03-25 01:34:03 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Ah! I'll admit that's pretty clever.
 704 2013-03-25 01:34:06 Ferroh has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 706 2013-03-25 01:34:06 sipa has joined
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 708 2013-03-25 01:34:48 <gmaxwell> (though without a consensus algorithim to set the POW I dunno how thats actually implemented, perhaps just with priority queues)
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 715 2013-03-25 01:35:27 <gmaxwell> petertodd: well take care that I'm not accidentally inventing things for them, I read over their paper a while back and that how I understood it.
 716 2013-03-25 01:35:42 topace is now known as Guest23091
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 718 2013-03-25 01:35:44 <jgarzik> oh neat, they just added an API of some sort
 719 2013-03-25 01:35:45 <sipa1024> must have missed a part
 720 2013-03-25 01:35:45 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yeah, I should just read the source.
 721 2013-03-25 01:35:53 <jgarzik> so, bitmessage could be bot'ified
 722 2013-03-25 01:36:04 DiabloD3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 723 2013-03-25 01:36:08 * sipa1024 registers botmessage.org
 724 2013-03-25 01:36:13 <doublec> the announcements on reddit.com/r/bitmessage tend to describe the new features
 725 2013-03-25 01:36:25 <gmaxwell> Is there a reddit gatewaying bot yet?
 726 2013-03-25 01:36:28 DiabloD3 has joined
 727 2013-03-25 01:36:38 bonks_ has joined
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 729 2013-03-25 01:36:52 <jgarzik> https://bitmessage.org/wiki/API_Reference
 730 2013-03-25 01:36:59 DonnchaC has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 731 2013-03-25 01:37:01 <gmaxwell> petertodd: some of the things I still don't understand, e.g. why they required a full round trip to send someone a message....
 732 2013-03-25 01:37:20 DonnchaC has joined
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 735 2013-03-25 01:37:35 <petertodd> gmaxwell: round trip could be what signals the nodes can delete the message from their databases
 736 2013-03-25 01:37:59 techlife has joined
 737 2013-03-25 01:38:03 <doublec> they need more than one round trip don't they? They need to first request the public key for the address.
 738 2013-03-25 01:38:12 <gmaxwell> petertodd: you could have an ack even with a one way send.
 739 2013-03-25 01:38:12 <doublec> once they get that they encrypt the message and send that
 740 2013-03-25 01:38:15 <doublec> then get a response
 741 2013-03-25 01:38:17 jurov_ has joined
 742 2013-03-25 01:38:36 <gmaxwell> doublec: yea, but that doesn't make a lot of sense. Just use the keys as the addresses. They're the ~same size.
 743 2013-03-25 01:38:47 <sipa1024> bitmessage.org -> random page -> The Full Scoop on Dental Implants Learn More
 744 2013-03-25 01:38:48 <doublec> if the recipient is offline at the time of the public key request you have to wait for them to go online before the pow can be done. it's a pain.
 745 2013-03-25 01:39:09 WKNiGHT- is now known as WKNiGHT
 746 2013-03-25 01:39:35 <gmaxwell> doublec: yea, thats what I'm saying. Not just that, but it facilitates traffic analysis against the reciever. E.g. if I can see what nodes are online .... I send you a request for your key... and then repeat until I can tell what node you are.
 747 2013-03-25 01:39:39 WKNiGHT is now known as Guest92922
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 749 2013-03-25 01:39:47 <gmaxwell> Any kind of "auto response" is really bad for hiding the user.
 750 2013-03-25 01:39:51 <doublec> gmaxwell: right, we're in agreement :)
 751 2013-03-25 01:39:53 asd34sd has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 752 2013-03-25 01:40:06 Someguy123 has joined
 753 2013-03-25 01:40:08 <gmaxwell> If I whine at them at reddit will they notice?
 754 2013-03-25 01:40:12 Phoebus has joined
 755 2013-03-25 01:40:15 asd34sd has joined
 756 2013-03-25 01:40:16 <doublec> gmaxwell: yes
 757 2013-03-25 01:40:25 <doublec> gmaxwell: or you can whine on bitmessage
 758 2013-03-25 01:40:30 * gmaxwell begins the whining 
 759 2013-03-25 01:40:36 midnightmagic_ is now known as Guest56817
 760 2013-03-25 01:40:39 <gmaxwell> well, can't doesn't seem to work for me at the moment!
 761 2013-03-25 01:40:40 <doublec> gmaxwell: there's an address for the dev and a 'general discussion' list on there
 762 2013-03-25 01:40:43 <BlueMatt> sorry for the very extended hiatus, but pull-tester is back (Im lazy so Im just reverting the temporary rules for now...)
 763 2013-03-25 01:40:48 <doublec> gmaxwell: delete knownnodes.dat
 764 2013-03-25 01:40:59 banghouse has joined
 765 2013-03-25 01:41:02 <doublec> gmaxwell: anyother issue is it tries known addresses one by one, waiting for each to time out
 766 2013-03-25 01:41:04 aceat64 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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 772 2013-03-25 01:41:14 <doublec> gmaxwell: and takes *ages* if you have lots of addresses that aren't around anymore
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 776 2013-03-25 01:41:31 <sipa1024> ha, sounds familiar :)
 777 2013-03-25 01:41:35 <gmaxwell> What kind of stupid system would do that!
 778 2013-03-25 01:41:37 <doublec> gmaxwell: (in ~/.PyBitmessage)
 779 2013-03-25 01:41:39 <sipa1024> we solved that by reducing the timeout :p
 780 2013-03-25 01:41:45 <gmaxwell> 'solved'
 781 2013-03-25 01:41:49 <gmaxwell> It still stinks on tor.
 782 2013-03-25 01:41:49 <doublec> hehe
 783 2013-03-25 01:42:00 user_corrupt has joined
 784 2013-03-25 01:42:15 <gmaxwell> amusingly: my laptop's HS node gets inbound connections faster than it gets an outbound up most of the time.
 785 2013-03-25 01:42:16 <sipa1024> gmaxwell: yes, because it's 5s timeout to connect to tor, and then a 60s timeout to notice there's no activity :)
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 801 2013-03-25 01:44:30 <jgarzik> lockin update: v1:57  v2:943
 802 2013-03-25 01:45:40 * sipa1024 hopes to wake up in a stable v2 block world
 803 2013-03-25 01:45:40 <sipa1024> zZzZ1
 804 2013-03-25 01:45:40 <sipa1024> zZzZ!
 805 2013-03-25 01:45:54 <BlueMatt> sleep well
 806 2013-03-25 01:46:03 banghouse3 has joined
 807 2013-03-25 01:46:11 <jgarzik> version 2
 808 2013-03-25 01:46:11 <jgarzik> version 2
 809 2013-03-25 01:46:11 <jgarzik> version 2
 810 2013-03-25 01:46:11 <jgarzik> version 2
 811 2013-03-25 01:46:11 <jgarzik> version 2
 812 2013-03-25 01:46:11 <jgarzik> version 1
 813 2013-03-25 01:46:13 <jgarzik> version 2
 814 2013-03-25 01:46:15 <jgarzik> version 1
 815 2013-03-25 01:46:16 * BlueMatt goes to implement block v2 in bitcoinj....(yes it took me this long)
 816 2013-03-25 01:46:42 <jgarzik> 5 blocks to go, before we knock another v1 block out of history
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 821 2013-03-25 01:48:00 <jgarzik> 34 blocks to go, before it is -possible- to kick 7 v1 blocks out of history
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 824 2013-03-25 01:48:54 <jgarzik> assuming all new blocks are v2...  another 5.66 hours
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 840 2013-03-25 01:52:03 <remotemass> Excuse me, can you clarify me on what the capital C as first letter of naming usually means. I guess it is Creation. But could be Critical or something else. Can you pls clarify it?
 841 2013-03-25 01:52:28 mologie has joined
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 846 2013-03-25 01:53:07 <gmaxwell> Class
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 856 2013-03-25 01:53:20 <remotemass> ok, thx
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 878 2013-03-25 01:58:06 <hasproblem> Hello! My bitcoin qt is not opening after 15+ minutes waiting. Checked error log, see errors. I assume this might be the place to ask for help. Thank you.
 879 2013-03-25 01:58:21 <hasproblem> version 0.7
 880 2013-03-25 01:58:28 novusordo has joined
 881 2013-03-25 01:58:42 <copumpkin> not very helpful without knowing what the errors are
 882 2013-03-25 01:58:51 novusordo is now known as Guest4950
 883 2013-03-25 01:58:57 <hasproblem> one moment
 884 2013-03-25 01:59:04 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 885 2013-03-25 01:59:19 <copumpkin> not that I'm likely to be able to help, myself, but if you post details someone else might :)
 886 2013-03-25 01:59:27 abracadabra has joined
 887 2013-03-25 01:59:42 joshsm has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 888 2013-03-25 01:59:44 <hasproblem> currently at 24000 ms
 889 2013-03-25 01:59:47 <hasproblem> for load time
 890 2013-03-25 01:59:57 Detritus has quit (Write error: Broken pipe)
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 898 2013-03-25 02:01:18 <hasproblem> ERROR: FetchInputs() : 9xxxxxx2 mempool Tx prev not found 8xxxxxxxxxx4 stored orphan tx 9xxxxxxx2 (mapsz 279) ERROR: FetchInputs() : 0xxxxxxb mempool Tx prev not found 2xxxxxxxa stored orphan tx 0xxxxxxxb (mapsz 280)
 899 2013-03-25 02:01:20 <hasproblem> a lot of these
 900 2013-03-25 02:01:37 <hasproblem> help anyone?
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 904 2013-03-25 02:02:28 <hasproblem> i just recently unzipped a compressed wallet inside the roaming appdata folder
 905 2013-03-25 02:02:28 <gmaxwell> hasproblem: those are not actual errors. They're normal when a node isn't synced up or has recently been started.
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 919 2013-03-25 02:02:46 <hasproblem> okay
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 929 2013-03-25 02:02:50 <hasproblem> ill refresh my debug file
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 939 2013-03-25 02:03:36 <hasproblem> should i be looking at debug or db?
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 941 2013-03-25 02:03:47 <gmaxwell> debug.log
 942 2013-03-25 02:04:03 <gmaxwell> hasproblem: are you sure its not up? maybe its minimized in your tray?
 943 2013-03-25 02:04:04 variousnefarious has joined
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 945 2013-03-25 02:04:22 <hasproblem> it has the small wallet icon
 946 2013-03-25 02:04:26 <hasproblem> in the middle of the screen
 947 2013-03-25 02:04:30 <hasproblem> that typically shows when loading
 948 2013-03-25 02:04:37 <hasproblem> but it's been like that for 15 mins
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 957 2013-03-25 02:06:25 <hasproblem> Bitcoin version v0.7.0-beta (2012-09-12 14:07:22 -0400) Using OpenSSL version OpenSSL 1.0.1b 26 Apr 2012 Startup time: 03/25/13 01:27:15 Default data directory C:\Users\A\AppData\Roaming\Bitcoin Used data directory C:\Users\A\AppData\Roaming\Bitcoin Bound to [::]:8333 Bound to 0.0.0.0:8333 Loading block index... dbenv.open LogDir=C:\Users\A\AppData\Roaming\Bitcoin\database ErrorFile=C:\Users\A\AppData\Roaming\Bitcoin\db.log L
 958 2013-03-25 02:07:11 <hasproblem> 0000006a0be4  height=219420  date=02/03/13 16:37:19 Verifying last 2500 blocks at level 1  block index           24368ms Loading wallet...
 959 2013-03-25 02:07:31 <hasproblem> if the 24368ms refers to time spent loading
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 967 2013-03-25 02:07:38 <hasproblem> it's been saying that number for a while now
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 970 2013-03-25 02:07:53 <hasproblem> even with log refresh
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 972 2013-03-25 02:08:23 <hasproblem> i tried stopping it mid-load and restarting it once already
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 977 2013-03-25 02:10:56 <hasproblem> gmaxwell: i'll restart it
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1088 2013-03-25 02:42:45 <remotemass> Can anyone please explain a bit about 'Alert system', in alert.h and alert.cpp ?
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1091 2013-03-25 02:43:13 <gmaxwell> remotemass: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Alerts
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1100 2013-03-25 02:44:07 <remotemass> cheers mate
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1120 2013-03-25 02:49:29 <hasproblem> @gmaxwell hello again, i restarted comp and tried again, and it's still hung up after nearly 30 mins
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1123 2013-03-25 02:52:11 <gmaxwell> hasproblem: you could try backing up your app data directory, and then moving the wallet and or blockchain out of the way.
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1132 2013-03-25 02:53:54 <hasproblem> gmaxwell: alright, ill try with a new wallet first
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1168 2013-03-25 02:58:02 <hasproblem> gmaxwell: ok, it loaded in less than a minute when i renamed wallet file something else
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1170 2013-03-25 02:58:12 <hasproblem> gmaxwell: so i guess my wallet is corrupted
1171 2013-03-25 02:58:34 <hasproblem> only had a thousand dollars on there..
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1173 2013-03-25 02:59:30 <Jere_Jones> only...
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1175 2013-03-25 03:00:33 <gmaxwell> hasproblem: It's always recoverable.
1176 2013-03-25 03:00:47 <gmaxwell> okay, so moving the wallet.dat out makes it startup?
1177 2013-03-25 03:01:11 <hasproblem> yes
1178 2013-03-25 03:01:25 <hasproblem> and the blockchain seems unaffected
1179 2013-03-25 03:01:40 <hasproblem> i was 49 days behind before this started
1180 2013-03-25 03:01:44 <hasproblem> and im 49 days behind now
1181 2013-03-25 03:01:46 <hasproblem> slowly catching up
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1185 2013-03-25 03:02:38 <hasproblem> gmaxwell: all i had been doing was organizing some extraneous wallet folders
1186 2013-03-25 03:02:55 ripshy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1187 2013-03-25 03:02:56 <hasproblem> perhaps unzipping a 7z file inside the appdata folder is a problem?
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1190 2013-03-25 03:03:45 <PRab> Did we hit v2 at 95% yet?
1191 2013-03-25 03:03:51 <keystroke> not yet
1192 2013-03-25 03:04:02 <PRab> ETA?
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1194 2013-03-25 03:04:09 <keystroke> http://blockorigin.pfoe.be/top.php
1195 2013-03-25 03:04:13 <keystroke> 94.3%
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1205 2013-03-25 03:05:12 <PRab> Oh, cool. Thanks for the link.
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1207 2013-03-25 03:05:33 <keystroke> np :)
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1209 2013-03-25 03:05:37 <keystroke> are you just curious?
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1216 2013-03-25 03:05:58 <keystroke> we should get to 95% at block 227951, unless more v1s come out
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1219 2013-03-25 03:06:22 <keystroke> it should happen in about 6 hours at the current rate
1220 2013-03-25 03:06:29 <PRab> Yep, just wondering.
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1223 2013-03-25 03:06:42 <keystroke> cool, yea i am having fun following it
1224 2013-03-25 03:06:44 Kireji has joined
1225 2013-03-25 03:06:56 <keystroke> dunno why but it is interesting... good test of the network upgrade strategy
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1235 2013-03-25 03:07:41 <PRab> Exactly. I can see this happening many more times in the future.
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1319 2013-03-25 03:37:46 firstworld has joined
1320 2013-03-25 03:38:08 <firstworld> could a 51% attacker (in theory) transfer coins out of any wallet?  Or are they limited to double spends?
1321 2013-03-25 03:39:26 berni23 has quit ()
1322 2013-03-25 03:39:55 <Ry4an_> limited to double spends.  They'd still need the private keys for those accounts to make valid transactions that send from them
1323 2013-03-25 03:40:01 <PRab> firstworld: No, a 51% attack cannot initiate the transfer of coins.
1324 2013-03-25 03:40:19 Ry4an_ is now known as Ry4an
1325 2013-03-25 03:41:00 <jgarzik> firstworld: what PRab said
1326 2013-03-25 03:41:29 <Luke-Jr> 51% allows: double spending, blocking other miners from receiving blocks, and blocking arbitrary transactions from becoming confirmed
1327 2013-03-25 03:41:35 <Luke-Jr> I *think* that's a complete list
1328 2013-03-25 03:42:08 <Guest5039> Does double spending allow duplication of bitcoins, leading to infinite bitcoins?
1329 2013-03-25 03:42:22 <doublec> a 51% could rewind the blockchain causing you to lose coins if they are based on coins created in a block that the 51%er invalidated
1330 2013-03-25 03:43:00 <Luke-Jr> Guest5039: yes and no; they could spend it unlimited times if they hold 51% long enough, but only one recipient would end up with the coins
1331 2013-03-25 03:43:11 <Luke-Jr> doublec: ah, that too
1332 2013-03-25 03:43:22 <Guest5039> Luke-Jr: i see
1333 2013-03-25 03:43:24 <PRab> Guest5039: No, even during a 51% attack there is only one longest blockchain.
1334 2013-03-25 03:43:37 <PRab> Luke-Jr beat me.
1335 2013-03-25 03:44:01 <Luke-Jr> also, while 51% makes it *possible*, it is still very expensive and time consuming for most attacks
1336 2013-03-25 03:44:22 <Luke-Jr> the more over 51% they get, the faster/cheaper
1337 2013-03-25 03:44:32 <Ry4an> And realistically when everyone notices the blockchain-rewinding-whiplash that's going on they'd stop accepting any coins pretty quickly.  So the person would have the ability to re-spend something they'd just made worthless.
1338 2013-03-25 03:44:49 <ryan-c> I think with 51% they still have to be somewhat lucky.
1339 2013-03-25 03:44:49 <doublec> Ry4an: if they're mining offline you won't notice till too late
1340 2013-03-25 03:45:15 <doublec> (for the invalidating past blocks issue. double spends I agree they'd be whiplash)
1341 2013-03-25 03:45:24 <Ry4an> doublec: sure, but that trick would work once-ish is what I'm saying.  They couldn't keep redoing it and respending the "same" coins.
1342 2013-03-25 03:45:59 <gmaxwell> Ry4an: well they can because a lot of software is stupid because smart is hard and you're talking about corner case behavior that almost no sites will ever test.
1343 2013-03-25 03:46:10 <Luke-Jr> ryan-c: with 51%, it's only a matter of time
1344 2013-03-25 03:46:21 <Ry4an> makes sense.
1345 2013-03-25 03:47:03 <gmaxwell> Sometimes the 'matter of time' could be very long.. e.g. to revert 2 years of constant-rate mining with 51% you'd need >20 years working in secret most likely.
1346 2013-03-25 03:47:42 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: 20? I'd think more like 1.5
1347 2013-03-25 03:48:02 <firstworld> thanks
1348 2013-03-25 03:48:15 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: heck no, you'd need an expected 2 years just to catch up to the point you started from. (this is all assuming that hashrate is constant)
1349 2013-03-25 03:48:32 <gmaxwell> (well 1% less than two years)
1350 2013-03-25 03:48:41 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: considering hashrate was lower where you started..?
1351 2013-03-25 03:48:47 <gmaxwell> Yes, in that case its easy.
1352 2013-03-25 03:48:48 <firstworld> so it's like the box in Primer
1353 2013-03-25 03:48:59 <Ry4an> heh, Primer :)
1354 2013-03-25 03:49:07 <gmaxwell> firstworld: well, the box in prime IF hashrate is constant, though it hasn't been lately.
1355 2013-03-25 03:49:12 owowo has joined
1356 2013-03-25 03:49:44 <gmaxwell> So it's like if the boxes speed depended on power, and boxes were tending to get more powerful over time... and.. this analogy is failing.
1357 2013-03-25 03:49:55 <firstworld> lol
1358 2013-03-25 03:51:54 <gmaxwell> e.g. if our hashrate goes up 730x and you come in with get 51%, then you could revert the prior years history only takes about a day more computation than reverting only a day of history.
1359 2013-03-25 03:52:29 <gmaxwell> but hashrate should eventually taper off to a constantish thing.... at least not the crazy increases we've seen from the introduction of mining asics.
1360 2013-03-25 03:53:57 <Ry4an> Is there any well reasoned speculation as to what transaction fess will have to be once rewards are zero to keep the miners doing their thing?
1361 2013-03-25 03:54:11 fiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1362 2013-03-25 03:54:13 kAntonio has joined
1363 2013-03-25 03:54:46 <Luke-Jr> Ry4an: I don't think so.
1364 2013-03-25 03:54:46 <Ry4an> I guess it mostly depends on how much energy 1BTC buys in thirty years
1365 2013-03-25 03:55:01 <Luke-Jr> 30?
1366 2013-03-25 03:55:14 <Ry4an> whatever the taper-to-zero time horizon is.
1367 2013-03-25 03:55:15 <Luke-Jr> subsidy doesn't reach zero for over another century :P
1368 2013-03-25 03:56:18 <Ry4an> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ#How_long_will_it_take_to_generate_all_the_coins.3F really?
1369 2013-03-25 03:56:30 <Ry4an> ah! I missed 100 :)
1370 2013-03-25 03:56:52 fiesh has joined
1371 2013-03-25 03:57:23 <warren> Luke-Jr: we could use an educational video that explains all this
1372 2013-03-25 03:57:36 <Luke-Jr> warren: have fun!
1373 2013-03-25 03:57:41 <Luke-Jr> (I don't do video production)
1374 2013-03-25 03:57:45 <warren> me neither
1375 2013-03-25 03:57:56 Casimir1904 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1376 2013-03-25 03:57:56 <warren> Luke-Jr: it's just the devs explain this over and over again
1377 2013-03-25 03:58:21 <warren> seems like something the foundation should do
1378 2013-03-25 03:58:22 <Luke-Jr> maybe a FAQ entry, "what can a 51% attack do?"
1379 2013-03-25 03:58:25 <gmaxwell> 20:33 < Ry4an> I guess it mostly depends on how much energy 1BTC buys in thirty years
1380 2013-03-25 03:58:29 <gmaxwell> why does it depend on that?
1381 2013-03-25 03:59:00 <gmaxwell> (I think you're making a price follows hashrate fallicy sort of error there, but I'm interested in knowing why you think it)
1382 2013-03-25 03:59:42 ripshy has joined
1383 2013-03-25 04:00:20 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: seems obvious to me.. if 1 BTC pays for the electricity required to mine 1 block, it's sufficient
1384 2013-03-25 04:00:21 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: It bugs me that people say 51% attack, as if the 1 matters. :P  I've been saying "(near) majority" highlighting that its not the number 51 that matters, it's the majority— and the fact that a near majority can do it too.. just with lower than 1 success probablity.
1385 2013-03-25 04:00:34 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: sure but how much electricity is required to mine one block?
1386 2013-03-25 04:00:52 <Luke-Jr> that's another factor :p
1387 2013-03-25 04:01:04 <gmaxwell> the minimum difficulty is 1…  my watch will be able to handle 10 blocks a minute at diff 1 in a few years. :P
1388 2013-03-25 04:01:41 <gmaxwell> I kinda wonder why satoshi didn't make the difficulty only ratchet one way... except for stalling attacks early on.
1389 2013-03-25 04:02:26 dawei101 has joined
1390 2013-03-25 04:02:40 <doublec> gmaxwell: yeah good point. btcguild isn't at 51% for example but has had 6+ blocks in a row so could double-spend if they were evil.
1391 2013-03-25 04:02:43 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: lack of confidence in his own system
1392 2013-03-25 04:02:52 dawei101 has quit (Client Quit)
1393 2013-03-25 04:03:14 <doublec> hopefully people would notice a 6 block reorg
1394 2013-03-25 04:03:45 ripshy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1395 2013-03-25 04:04:18 <gmaxwell> one whole leg of the blocksize concern stuff would have been slain if difficulty ratched only up. :(
1396 2013-03-25 04:04:45 <gmaxwell> doublec: yea, the bitcoin paper even gives you the code for figuring out the returns...
1397 2013-03-25 04:05:20 <firstworld> how could you mine continuously at difficulty 1 without the difficulty adjusting?
1398 2013-03-25 04:05:23 <gmaxwell> One of the bummer things about bitcoin is that once the fees are large relative to the subsidy it starts getting attractive to optimize mining to reorg to steal fees.
1399 2013-03-25 04:05:29 <firstworld> wouldn't it autoadjust after 2048 blocks or whatever?
1400 2013-03-25 04:06:20 <gmaxwell> firstworld: the point there is that there is no specific "energy required to create a block"  it's potentially as low as difficulty 1.
1401 2013-03-25 04:06:37 <firstworld> right, I thought we were still talking about 51% attacks, my bad
1402 2013-03-25 04:07:02 duckybsd has joined
1403 2013-03-25 04:07:18 <gmaxwell> It's already more profitable now on some blocks to try to reorg out the last instead of move forward.
1404 2013-03-25 04:07:42 <firstworld> how so?
1405 2013-03-25 04:08:54 owowo is now known as suolopodowowo
1406 2013-03-25 04:10:07 <gmaxwell> firstworld: because sometimes the (coinbase in the last block + extra fees you can stuff in now) * the probablity you'll lose > coinbase in this block
1407 2013-03-25 04:11:43 <doublec> oh, there's the so called "time travel" exploit a 51%er could do too - was that ever addressed in bitcoin?
1408 2013-03-25 04:12:25 <doublec> most of the alt coins patched it but it's a hard fork fix I think so they were able to do it from the start
1409 2013-03-25 04:14:08 aceat64_ is now known as aceat64
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1412 2013-03-25 04:17:41 <Luke-Jr> doublec: sadly, we didn't take advantage of the upcoming hardfork
1413 2013-03-25 04:17:52 <Luke-Jr> at all really
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1417 2013-03-25 04:18:46 <gmaxwell> doublec: we haven't. It's possible to fix it in a softer way, so that would be preferable.
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1436 2013-03-25 04:33:21 <gmaxwell> "Building bitcoin as root can cause /dev/null to be removed on some systems" lol
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1441 2013-03-25 04:37:42 <doublec> gmaxwell: bitmessage dev replied to your query about addresses btw
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1444 2013-03-25 04:39:36 <gmaxwell> I saw. But I don't buy it.
1445 2013-03-25 04:39:49 <gmaxwell> It's not clear to me why they need to use seperate keys for signing and encryption.
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1467 2013-03-25 04:59:33 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: There have been cryptographic attacks on systems that reused keys for signing and encryption. Even in absence of known attacks it is considered prudent to use different keys.
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1470 2013-03-25 05:01:02 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: I'm aware of that but ECC is not RSA.
1471 2013-03-25 05:02:18 <gmaxwell> if someone is to apply the precautionary principle without a concrete reason, you might then argue that they should be using three distinct asymetric schemes in parallel, just in case. :)
1472 2013-03-25 05:02:44 bernard75 has left ()
1473 2013-03-25 05:02:48 <gmaxwell> And this isn't free here: the round trip required undermines the primary security objective of their system.
1474 2013-03-25 05:03:08 <gmaxwell> (immunity to traffic analysis, which they accomplish via flooding)
1475 2013-03-25 05:04:20 <doublec> gmaxwell: might be a carry over from when they used rsa
1476 2013-03-25 05:07:26 Namworld has joined
1477 2013-03-25 05:07:30 <CodeShar_> 4 more v1 blocks to evict. the sequence is now 3, 10, 14, *18*, 39, 42, 48, 59
1478 2013-03-25 05:07:42 <keystroke> sequence?
1479 2013-03-25 05:07:52 <keystroke> 39 blocks left hopefully
1480 2013-03-25 05:08:00 <keystroke> oh sorry i see
1481 2013-03-25 05:08:02 <CodeShar_> yes, 3 more blocks until we get rid of the first, then 10 until we get of the second, etc...
1482 2013-03-25 05:08:14 <CodeShar_> I mean 10 (so 3 + 7)
1483 2013-03-25 05:08:20 <keystroke> We are currently at 55 out of the latest 1000 blocks on version 1 (5.50%) and 945 out of the latest 1000 blocks on version 2 (94.50%)
1484 2013-03-25 05:08:30 <keystroke> perhaps that page doesn't update fast enough?
1485 2013-03-25 05:08:46 <CodeShar_> does that site account for block 227912?
1486 2013-03-25 05:08:51 <keystroke> we will have to have someone mine a test v1 block
1487 2013-03-25 05:08:52 Guest79863 has joined
1488 2013-03-25 05:09:21 <warren> keystroke: at this rate, we'll see the post-95% rejections naturally
1489 2013-03-25 05:09:33 <keystroke> oh they are only at 902
1490 2013-03-25 05:09:37 <gmaxwell> woah, avalon switching to difficulty based pricing
1491 2013-03-25 05:09:57 <warren> makes sense, now that they've proven it is real.
1492 2013-03-25 05:10:01 <keystroke> warren: yes i guess we will just see the orphan
1493 2013-03-25 05:10:06 <gmaxwell> The price of each unit is the current mining difficulty which at the time of writing, just got readjusted to about 6,695,826. We take that number and multiply it by two ( predicting the network speed will double. ) and calculate the return in a thirty day window, which is about 75 bitcoins. See this site for more details.
1494 2013-03-25 05:10:18 <keystroke> wow
1495 2013-03-25 05:10:19 <keystroke> very nice
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1497 2013-03-25 05:10:30 <aceat64> is bitpay down for anyone else?
1498 2013-03-25 05:11:04 <warren> The batch #2 buyers had good timing.
1499 2013-03-25 05:11:32 <aceat64> never mind, my browser is being stupid
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1511 2013-03-25 05:23:35 <nanotube> seems their difficulty prediction is pretty conservative... considering that we're on track for another 50% increase. ,,diffchange
1512 2013-03-25 05:23:37 <gribble> Estimated percent change in difficulty this period | 5.60279 % based on data since last change | 15.62573 % based on data for last three days
1513 2013-03-25 05:23:46 <nanotube> ok, maybe not 50%
1514 2013-03-25 05:23:47 <nanotube> heh
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1522 2013-03-25 05:38:16 <geagherhre> http://redd.it/1ayie0 buy 50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
1523 2013-03-25 05:38:17 <geagherhre> http://redd.it/1ayie0 buy 50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
1524 2013-03-25 05:38:17 <geagherhre> http://redd.it/1ayie0 buy 50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
1525 2013-03-25 05:38:27 <Guest5039> I can vouch for this man
1526 2013-03-25 05:38:31 <geagherhre> http://redd.it/1ayie0 buy 50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
1527 2013-03-25 05:38:31 <geagherhre> http://redd.it/1ayie0 buy 50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
1528 2013-03-25 05:38:32 <geagherhre> http://redd.it/1ayie0 buy 50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
1529 2013-03-25 05:38:42 <geagherhre> http://redd.it/1ayie0 buy 50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
1530 2013-03-25 05:38:42 <geagherhre> http://redd.it/1ayie0 buy 50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
1531 2013-03-25 05:38:42 <geagherhre> http://redd.it/1ayie0 buy 50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
1532 2013-03-25 05:38:43 <geagherhre> http://redd.it/1ayie0 buy 50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
1533 2013-03-25 05:38:43 <geagherhre> http://redd.it/1ayie0 buy 50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
1534 2013-03-25 05:38:44 <geagherhre> http://redd.it/1ayie0 buy 50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
1535 2013-03-25 05:38:53 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1536 2013-03-25 05:39:09 <geagherhre> http://redd.it/1ayie0 buy 50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199http://redd.it/1ayie0 buy 50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
1537 2013-03-25 05:39:46 <geagherhre> http://redd.it/1ayie0 buy 50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
1538 2013-03-25 05:39:48 <geagherhre> http://redd.it/1ayie0 buy 50bitcoin free 2 bitcoin only$1199
1539 2013-03-25 05:40:10 <gmaxwell> @#$#@$@# chanserv. stupid @#$#@$()#@ scammer. die die die
1540 2013-03-25 05:40:58 <aceat64> I can't believe people would fall for that
1541 2013-03-25 05:41:10 <gmaxwell> especially not in #bitcoin-dev
1542 2013-03-25 05:41:20 <aceat64> at least one would hope
1543 2013-03-25 05:41:21 <MC1984_> that shit is getting out of hand
1544 2013-03-25 05:41:46 <gmaxwell> but I think that scammers actually don't engage in strategy. Instead the scammer factory just puts out randomly wired scammers, and some surirve .. others starve.
1545 2013-03-25 05:41:47 safra has joined
1546 2013-03-25 05:41:51 <aceat64> could always got +r
1547 2013-03-25 05:41:53 <aceat64> go*
1548 2013-03-25 05:42:00 <MC1984_> ok bitcoin.exe 266mb
1549 2013-03-25 05:42:04 <gmaxwell> What we're seeing here is an unfit species of scammer who will soon be extinct.
1550 2013-03-25 05:42:09 <aceat64> lol
1551 2013-03-25 05:42:11 <MC1984_> "commit charge" 880mb of 100
1552 2013-03-25 05:42:51 <MC1984_> bitcoin.exe gone, commit charge is now 450
1553 2013-03-25 05:42:54 <doublec> heh, my pools last found block was in the top 50 highest hashes
1554 2013-03-25 05:43:31 <doublec> or is that lowest hashes
1555 2013-03-25 05:43:53 <MC1984_> is that what they call a memory leak?
1556 2013-03-25 05:44:44 <aceat64> I plan on doing a bitcoin class in the next few weeks at our hackerspace, any interest in me filming it and putting it up somewhere?
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1562 2013-03-25 05:57:52 <CodeShark> 3 more v1 blocks to evict. the sequence is now 5, 9, *13*, 34, 37, 43
1563 2013-03-25 05:58:23 <jgarzik> v1:53  v2:947
1564 2013-03-25 05:59:09 <jgarzik> 14 blocks to go
1565 2013-03-25 05:59:14 <jgarzik> presuming no more v1
1566 2013-03-25 06:00:04 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: RE scammers...  ROI
1567 2013-03-25 06:00:30 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: flooding stupid URLs might not snare anyone in this channel... but it's cheap and might find its way into web crawlers and other secondary targets that live longer
1568 2013-03-25 06:00:44 o2_ has joined
1569 2013-03-25 06:00:48 <gmaxwell> yea, but #bitcoin-dev has to have negative ROI. It's cheap to post here, but they'll get nothing and might convince one of us to hunt them down and ... write bots to automatically ban them.
1570 2013-03-25 06:00:59 fposdkgs has joined
1571 2013-03-25 06:00:59 <gmaxwell> hm secondary targets is a point.
1572 2013-03-25 06:01:15 * gmaxwell goes to get their URL taken down.
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1575 2013-03-25 06:02:31 <CodeShark> jgarzik, isn't it 13 to go?
1576 2013-03-25 06:02:43 draradec1 has joined
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1578 2013-03-25 06:02:54 <jgarzik> CodeShark: I counted 14 including the last v1 block to be superceded
1579 2013-03-25 06:03:10 <CodeShark> v1_blockheight - (lastheight-1000)
1580 2013-03-25 06:03:31 luke-jr_ has joined
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1582 2013-03-25 06:03:55 <nanotube> aceat64: can't hurt. especially if it's good. :)
1583 2013-03-25 06:04:10 <CodeShark> 226930 - (227917-1000) = 13. now it's 12
1584 2013-03-25 06:04:17 <aceat64> nanotube: that's a big "if" lol
1585 2013-03-25 06:04:23 <CodeShark> since lastheight is 227918
1586 2013-03-25 06:04:31 jez0990_ has joined
1587 2013-03-25 06:04:36 <nanotube> aceat64: well, you won't know til you try :)
1588 2013-03-25 06:04:43 <jgarzik> CodeShark: My script records the last N block nVersions, and then the earliest X are counted up to and including the third v1 block
1589 2013-03-25 06:04:55 <jgarzik> N=1000
1590 2013-03-25 06:05:04 warren_2 has joined
1591 2013-03-25 06:05:19 <CodeShark> I'm just doing SET @i=0; SELECT @i := @i+1, `height`-(@b-1000) FROM `blocks` WHERE `in_main_chain` = 1 AND `version` = 1 AND `height` > (@b-1000) ORDER BY `height` LIMIT 20;
1592 2013-03-25 06:05:29 <CodeShark> where @b is the last block height
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1600 2013-03-25 06:06:29 <jgarzik> 13 now, as of height 227918
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1604 2013-03-25 06:07:42 <keystroke> block 227931 is it?
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1647 2013-03-25 06:08:36 <aceat64> weeeeee
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1655 2013-03-25 06:09:05 <CodeShark> say 2 was the last block height and 1 was the lowest height v1 block that needed to be kicked out of the top 2 spots. you need one more block to do it since blocks 2 and 3 will be the top 2 spots, kicking out 1
1656 2013-03-25 06:09:10 Guest14447 has joined
1657 2013-03-25 06:09:21 <CodeShark> so I think my formula is correct
1658 2013-03-25 06:09:51 <keystroke> so 12 left?
1659 2013-03-25 06:09:54 <keystroke> 930?
1660 2013-03-25 06:10:00 <CodeShark> that's my calculation, keystroke
1661 2013-03-25 06:10:08 <keystroke> i think that makes sense
1662 2013-03-25 06:10:58 <CodeShark> 11 now :)
1663 2013-03-25 06:11:02 <keystroke> 11
1664 2013-03-25 06:11:04 <keystroke> yes haha
1665 2013-03-25 06:11:18 <keystroke> 3, 7, 11
1666 2013-03-25 06:11:22 <aceat64> sorry, I'm just getting back into bitcoin after 2 years out, what's all this talk of v1/v2 blocks?
1667 2013-03-25 06:11:22 sytse has joined
1668 2013-03-25 06:11:39 techlife has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1669 2013-03-25 06:11:40 <CodeShark> but from 11 it jumps to 32
1670 2013-03-25 06:11:48 sebuba has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1671 2013-03-25 06:11:49 <CodeShark> so there still could be someone that spoils the party :p
1672 2013-03-25 06:11:53 <keystroke> yea
1673 2013-03-25 06:11:59 <keystroke> let the betting begin :P
1674 2013-03-25 06:12:08 <keystroke> the blocks are verisoned now, it is a soft fork
1675 2013-03-25 06:12:22 <keystroke> and a test of the network upgrade consensus mechanism
1676 2013-03-25 06:13:14 <aceat64> ahh, cool
1677 2013-03-25 06:13:47 <aceat64> so are you gauging the potential for a fork due to old nodes?
1678 2013-03-25 06:14:03 toffoo has joined
1679 2013-03-25 06:14:08 <keystroke> i believe it can't fork because they don't have the speed to keep up
1680 2013-03-25 06:14:14 <keystroke> there could be some orphans generated by them
1681 2013-03-25 06:14:31 <aceat64> that's the price you pay for not sticking with concensus though
1682 2013-03-25 06:14:32 <nanotube> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=154521.0 <- aceat64
1683 2013-03-25 06:14:34 <keystroke> the upgrade takes place when 95% of the last 1000 blocks ar at v2
1684 2013-03-25 06:14:38 <keystroke> are
1685 2013-03-25 06:14:49 <aceat64> nanotube: thanks :)
1686 2013-03-25 06:14:56 <keystroke> amazing how fast it has happened actually
1687 2013-03-25 06:15:53 ProfMac has joined
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1689 2013-03-25 06:17:14 pale_fire has quit (Quit: pale_fire)
1690 2013-03-25 06:18:01 <CodeShark> 10 now :)
1691 2013-03-25 06:18:09 <EvilPete> there's no way that the couple of percent of v1 nodes can sustain a fork. They have to make nearly 2000 more blocks at 6 million difficulty to get a difficulty adjustment.
1692 2013-03-25 06:18:10 <keystroke> :D
1693 2013-03-25 06:18:38 <keystroke> yea it is not possible
1694 2013-03-25 06:18:55 <EvilPete> besides, v2 blocks are acceptable to v1 nodes anyway
1695 2013-03-25 06:18:55 <CodeShark> someone could still force us to wait for more than 30 blocks, though :)
1696 2013-03-25 06:18:57 <gmaxwell> EvilPete: they won't even try, they'll keep building blocks as stubs on the v2 majority.
1697 2013-03-25 06:18:57 <keystroke> now we can switch the ECDSA curve :P
1698 2013-03-25 06:19:04 <gmaxwell> EvilPete: because this change is not a hardfork.
1699 2013-03-25 06:19:04 <aceat64> makes sense, since the old nodes still accept the new blocks they'll see the main chain as valid and longer
1700 2013-03-25 06:19:09 <aceat64> so they can't form their own v1 only fork
1701 2013-03-25 06:19:37 <EvilPete> gmaxwell: yeah, the v1/v2 thing is soft, while the may15 is hard
1702 2013-03-25 06:19:40 grau has joined
1703 2013-03-25 06:19:42 <gmaxwell> keystroke: why? SIPA's code is now in vaguely the same speed class as the ed25519 stuff. The only downside is that it lacks batch validation.
1704 2013-03-25 06:19:55 <aceat64> keystroke: is there actually a proposal in play to switch to ECDSA?
1705 2013-03-25 06:19:57 <keystroke> oh i was sort of kidding gmaxwell
1706 2013-03-25 06:20:07 <aceat64> wouldn't that fuck all the ASIC stuff right now?
1707 2013-03-25 06:20:13 <keystroke> it is already ECDSA but there is an alternate more widely used curve
1708 2013-03-25 06:20:22 <keystroke> no ASIC is just for the sha256 hash, not signature validation
1709 2013-03-25 06:20:27 <aceat64> ahh gotcha
1710 2013-03-25 06:20:40 <aceat64> I stopped following bitcoin when GPU was first starting to show up
1711 2013-03-25 06:20:46 <aceat64> I have a lot to catch up on
1712 2013-03-25 06:20:48 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
1713 2013-03-25 06:21:03 <keystroke> but i think the other curve might be more widely used and thus have more eyes checking it for security... if that is a true concern i don't know
1714 2013-03-25 06:21:06 <EvilPete> also, damn it, I wish I had about 40 more btc on hand.
1715 2013-03-25 06:21:14 <keystroke> why EvilPete?
1716 2013-03-25 06:21:20 <keystroke> sounds like you are catching up pretty quick aceat64 :)
1717 2013-03-25 06:21:34 nus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1718 2013-03-25 06:21:55 nus has joined
1719 2013-03-25 06:22:07 <EvilPete> keystroke: because I don't have enough left of my cheap btc and it looks like avalon's going to be 75 in a few hours.
1720 2013-03-25 06:22:15 <aceat64> I should have stuck with my gut and stayed in, looks like you guys have had a lot of fun
1721 2013-03-25 06:22:47 <aceat64> interestingly enough, #bitcoin-dev is how I found out about hackerspaces, I've spent the last 2 years running one, only to get back into bitcoin
1722 2013-03-25 06:22:53 <keystroke> what have they cost previously EvilPete?
1723 2013-03-25 06:23:02 <keystroke> oh neat aceat64, where?
1724 2013-03-25 06:23:06 <aceat64> Dallas, TX
1725 2013-03-25 06:23:15 <aceat64> we're the Dallas Makerspace
1726 2013-03-25 06:23:18 <keystroke> cool
1727 2013-03-25 06:24:06 <keystroke> yea this is a great channel for learning new things
1728 2013-03-25 06:24:59 techlife has joined
1729 2013-03-25 06:24:59 <EvilPete> keystroke: and no way I can think of to quickly convert usd -> btc at this point. batch 1 $1299, batch 2 $1499, batch 3 75 btc.
1730 2013-03-25 06:25:49 <keystroke> over $5k usd
1731 2013-03-25 06:26:04 <EvilPete> CodeShark: do we need 950/1000 or greater than 950/1000?
1732 2013-03-25 06:26:09 <keystroke> i haven't followed the avalon progress much since i have ASICMINER shares
1733 2013-03-25 06:26:11 <CodeShark> 950/1000
1734 2013-03-25 06:26:25 <CodeShark> exactly, if I understand BIP0034 correctly
1735 2013-03-25 06:26:34 pale_fire has joined
1736 2013-03-25 06:26:35 <EvilPete> yeah but what does the code say? :)
1737 2013-03-25 06:26:40 <EvilPete> never mind the text
1738 2013-03-25 06:26:40 <keystroke> haha
1739 2013-03-25 06:27:05 <aceat64> I'm really tempted to buy into avalon's asic
1740 2013-03-25 06:27:23 <aceat64> I've got 12u of colo space just sitting empty right now, would be the perfect place for a rig
1741 2013-03-25 06:27:39 <aceat64> since I pay a flat rate for the 20a circuit
1742 2013-03-25 06:27:41 <gonffen> EvilPete: localbitcoins.com?
1743 2013-03-25 06:27:44 <EvilPete> aceat64: I have the space, power and cash just not enough btc on hand.
1744 2013-03-25 06:28:01 <EvilPete> gonffen: yeah, contacting friends now but that's the last resort I guess
1745 2013-03-25 06:28:10 <keystroke> how many watts does it draw and what is the hash rate?
1746 2013-03-25 06:28:25 <EvilPete> they have a 650W PSU and 60GH
1747 2013-03-25 06:28:27 <gonffen> EvilPete: good luck. both in getting coin and with ROI.
1748 2013-03-25 06:29:01 <gonffen> I wonder why they're only making 600
1749 2013-03-25 06:29:06 <keystroke> with the difficulty skyrocket the ROI might get pretty tight...
1750 2013-03-25 06:29:13 <keystroke> ASICMINER has 50 Thash coming online in april
1751 2013-03-25 06:29:32 <EvilPete> gonffen: I have 40btc on hand that cost me practically nothing so I woudln't be entirely out of pocket if it tanks.  its more a case of 40btc wasted.
1752 2013-03-25 06:30:08 <keystroke> 9 more blocks now
1753 2013-03-25 06:30:19 <keystroke> 1, 5, 9
1754 2013-03-25 06:30:26 <CodeShark> EvilPete: if ((!fTestNet && CBlockIndex::IsSuperMajority(2, pindexPrev, 950, 1000)) ...
1755 2013-03-25 06:30:34 <gonffen> EvilPete: it's true but that currently has a value around 2.8k. Just keep to your guns ;)
1756 2013-03-25 06:30:37 <nanotube> EvilPete: opportunity cost is a cost nevertheless. :)
1757 2013-03-25 06:30:59 <EvilPete> bool CBlockIndex::IsSuperMajority(int minVersion, const CBlockIndex* pstart, unsigned int nRequired, unsigned int nToCheck)
1758 2013-03-25 06:31:03 <EvilPete>     return (nFound >= nRequired);
1759 2013-03-25 06:31:03 <gonffen> in other words, don't lose your head.
1760 2013-03-25 06:31:22 <EvilPete> gonffen: exactly
1761 2013-03-25 06:31:39 <gonffen> you seem to have this figured out
1762 2013-03-25 06:31:47 <gonffen> I'd probably be feeling a bit squirrely if I were you
1763 2013-03-25 06:32:14 <keystroke> how much would 60ghash generate per day?
1764 2013-03-25 06:32:39 <keystroke> ฿4.51	?
1765 2013-03-25 06:32:39 <nanotube> ;;genrate 60000
1766 2013-03-25 06:32:41 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 60000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 6695826.2826, is 4.50644770523 BTC per day and 0.187768654385 BTC per hour.
1767 2013-03-25 06:32:47 <keystroke> thx :)
1768 2013-03-25 06:32:49 <keystroke> yea
1769 2013-03-25 06:33:02 <nanotube> an avalon is more like 67gh, 70 if a bit OCd. but close enough.
1770 2013-03-25 06:33:03 <EvilPete> so yeah, if you could get one today...
1771 2013-03-25 06:33:17 <aceat64> keystroke: if they are bringing 50 THASH online, isn't that kind of determental to the community, seeing as that's more then double the network?
1772 2013-03-25 06:33:17 <nanotube> and yea, by the time you get your batch3, diff could be in the sky.
1773 2013-03-25 06:33:23 <EvilPete> in 2 weeks it'll be 10 mil, in 3 it'll be 15 mil
1774 2013-03-25 06:33:39 <EvilPete> err 4 weeks it'll be 15+
1775 2013-03-25 06:33:45 <keystroke> aceat64: that is a good point.. but people will be bringing on other hashing power at the same time hopefully
1776 2013-03-25 06:34:07 <keystroke> the hashrate is 48.46 at the moment though
1777 2013-03-25 06:34:08 <EvilPete> so probably more like 1btc/day at delivery
1778 2013-03-25 06:34:16 <keystroke> Thash that is... of course
1779 2013-03-25 06:34:25 <keystroke> yea they need to guarantee a delivery date
1780 2013-03-25 06:34:27 <EvilPete> and it'll take a while to pay for that
1781 2013-03-25 06:34:46 <gonffen> only 75 days :S
1782 2013-03-25 06:34:51 <aceat64> I think I'll go for the avalon
1783 2013-03-25 06:34:53 <CodeShark> 8 more to go :)
1784 2013-03-25 06:35:00 <CodeShark> 4, 8, 29, 32
1785 2013-03-25 06:35:01 <EvilPete> the question is whether you care about btc->$usd or not.
1786 2013-03-25 06:35:10 <keystroke> i mined with GPU for so long.. the fans started to get annoying.. plus it was 106 degrees in once in my place.. broke the a/c so many times
1787 2013-03-25 06:35:16 <keystroke> so it would be fun to run an asic but...
1788 2013-03-25 06:35:17 <aceat64> worst case scenario I think it'll pay off eventually, and I've got 75 btc that I mined from 2 years ago
1789 2013-03-25 06:35:28 <keystroke> CodeShark: :)
1790 2013-03-25 06:35:51 <CodeShark> I got into bitcoin way too late for mining to be interesting - and was reluctant to buy an ASIC from shady people
1791 2013-03-25 06:36:03 <aceat64> I remember mining blocks on dual P3s
1792 2013-03-25 06:36:06 <aceat64> lol
1793 2013-03-25 06:36:11 <keystroke> haha yea
1794 2013-03-25 06:36:17 <keystroke> those were the days
1795 2013-03-25 06:36:25 <aceat64> now I've got a dual quad that can't do shit
1796 2013-03-25 06:36:37 <keystroke> when people could mine two blocks in a minute if they got lucky
1797 2013-03-25 06:36:42 <CodeShark> my dual quad couldn't do shit since the first day I got into bitcoin
1798 2013-03-25 06:36:43 <aceat64> I cashed out 2500 BTC at $0.10 USD
1799 2013-03-25 06:36:44 <CodeShark> :p
1800 2013-03-25 06:36:50 <aceat64> should have listened to my gut
1801 2013-03-25 06:36:59 <keystroke> haha ouch
1802 2013-03-25 06:36:59 <aceat64> but I was broke and the money looked so good
1803 2013-03-25 06:37:12 <keystroke> but without you there would be no market now
1804 2013-03-25 06:37:16 <keystroke> that stuff had to happen
1805 2013-03-25 06:37:19 <EvilPete> I got some btc from a friend who got 20k btc for something like $20.  and damn, I can't get hold of him to see what he has left :)
1806 2013-03-25 06:37:19 <aceat64> yup
1807 2013-03-25 06:37:45 <keystroke> EvilPete: surely they have internet on tropical islands?
1808 2013-03-25 06:38:07 <CodeShark> I'm jealous of you guys who actually got to solo mine bitcoin on a CPU
1809 2013-03-25 06:38:11 <aceat64> who knows, in a few years we might look at ~$70 USD/BTC and think "wow, I remember when it was that cheap"
1810 2013-03-25 06:38:15 <CodeShark> I'll never get that experience :(
1811 2013-03-25 06:38:17 <EvilPete> keystroke: no, he cashed most out
1812 2013-03-25 06:38:27 <keystroke> ahh ok EvilPete
1813 2013-03-25 06:38:45 <keystroke> don't worry, everyone kicks themselves wishing they mined more or did not cash out during the cheaper prices
1814 2013-03-25 06:39:03 <CodeShark> oh, I kick myself for neither of those :)
1815 2013-03-25 06:39:17 <CodeShark> I've still come out ahead, even if not as much as I could have
1816 2013-03-25 06:39:36 <EvilPete> I watched the effects of the last avalon buy.  The exchanges were being ddos'ed.. and avalon was cashing out btc.. ever noticed that there's not much depth? lots of btc coming into circulation could tank the exchange rates
1817 2013-03-25 06:39:40 <CodeShark> I just would like the experience of solo mining a block on a CPU
1818 2013-03-25 06:40:02 <keystroke> haha yes
1819 2013-03-25 06:40:05 <keystroke> now that would feel amazing
1820 2013-03-25 06:40:37 <keystroke> harder than winning the lottery :P
1821 2013-03-25 06:40:49 <CodeShark> the closest I'll ever come is a testnet block :(
1822 2013-03-25 06:40:55 <CodeShark> I've mined a few of those
1823 2013-03-25 06:40:59 <keystroke> how is testnet diff set?
1824 2013-03-25 06:41:03 <keystroke> 7 left
1825 2013-03-25 06:41:21 <keystroke> 3 7 28 31
1826 2013-03-25 06:41:54 <keystroke> EvilPete: yea the exchange lag has to be fixed...
1827 2013-03-25 06:42:21 <CodeShark> keystoke: if no block is found in 20 minutes, the difficulty goes back to minimum
1828 2013-03-25 06:42:52 <keystroke> nice
1829 2013-03-25 06:43:00 <gmaxwell> well, after 20 minutes a block can be mined at mininim difficulty.
1830 2013-03-25 06:43:10 <CodeShark> my quad cores were able to churn out a couple blocks in a few hours
1831 2013-03-25 06:43:17 <gmaxwell> It doesn't stay back at the minimum except when a special minimum block happens before a retarget.
1832 2013-03-25 06:43:21 <CodeShark> and that's the closest I'll ever come to mining bitcoin solo
1833 2013-03-25 06:43:30 <CodeShark> sad :(
1834 2013-03-25 06:43:51 <keystroke> special minimum block?
1835 2013-03-25 06:43:54 <keystroke> so are there multiple testnets?
1836 2013-03-25 06:44:05 <gmaxwell> not really.
1837 2013-03-25 06:44:07 <aceat64> CodeShark: just make your own completely incompatible network :)
1838 2013-03-25 06:44:17 <keystroke> ive seen reference to a few in the forums... recently when reading about time warp i think, but i could be mistaken
1839 2013-03-25 06:44:26 ovidiusoft has joined
1840 2013-03-25 06:44:27 <keystroke> haha aceat64
1841 2013-03-25 06:44:32 <CodeShark> 2, 6, 27, 30
1842 2013-03-25 06:45:12 <keystroke> btc guild seems to be pretty lucky
1843 2013-03-25 06:45:12 <MC-Droid> what are those numbers
1844 2013-03-25 06:45:12 <CodeShark> M
1845 2013-03-25 06:45:16 <CodeShark> MC-Droid: there are two more v1 blocks in the last 1000
1846 2013-03-25 06:45:26 <keystroke> guess the next number in the sequence MC-Droid
1847 2013-03-25 06:45:29 <CodeShark> er, 52
1848 2013-03-25 06:45:36 <CodeShark> 52 more v1 blocks in the last 1000
1849 2013-03-25 06:45:46 <CodeShark> after 2 more blocks, there will only be 51 v1 blocks
1850 2013-03-25 06:45:51 <CodeShark> after 6, only 50
1851 2013-03-25 06:45:58 <CodeShark> after 27, only 49
1852 2013-03-25 06:45:59 <CodeShark> etc...
1853 2013-03-25 06:46:29 <MC-Droid> buh
1854 2013-03-25 06:46:30 <CodeShark> so if there are no more v1 blocks in the next 6 blocks, we reach 95%
1855 2013-03-25 06:46:43 <CodeShark> if there is one, we have to wait 27 more
1856 2013-03-25 06:46:58 <CodeShark> 27 from now, that is
1857 2013-03-25 06:47:23 buddyrandom has joined
1858 2013-03-25 06:47:47 iwilcox has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1859 2013-03-25 06:47:52 <keystroke> not long now
1860 2013-03-25 06:48:04 Quazgaa has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1861 2013-03-25 06:48:12 iwilcox has joined
1862 2013-03-25 06:50:14 kadoban has joined
1863 2013-03-25 06:50:47 <EvilPete> keystroke: btcguild is lucky because of http://bitcoinchain.com/#start=1364108400&end=1364194200
1864 2013-03-25 06:52:44 <keystroke> yea asicminer is running through them
1865 2013-03-25 06:52:58 hmmmstrange has joined
1866 2013-03-25 06:53:09 <MC1984_> isnt there a simple countdown cos im too tired to understand that
1867 2013-03-25 06:53:24 <keystroke> just wait until block 227930
1868 2013-03-25 06:53:24 <MC1984_> 930/1000 whatever
1869 2013-03-25 06:53:30 <keystroke> unless a v1 is mined
1870 2013-03-25 06:53:36 <EvilPete>     Is there any plan to sell just the ASIC themselves and let others build their own units?
1871 2013-03-25 06:53:37 <EvilPete> Yes, if you are interested and are ready to purchase 10,000 chips or more. ( the 65Gh/s unit has 240 chips. ) Please contact init.d (at) bitsyn.com for more information.
1872 2013-03-25 06:53:41 <EvilPete> hah
1873 2013-03-25 06:53:44 <keystroke> hahaha
1874 2013-03-25 06:53:47 <jgarzik> heh
1875 2013-03-25 06:53:54 <keystroke> oh i only needed 8000 chips
1876 2013-03-25 06:53:55 <keystroke> too bad
1877 2013-03-25 06:54:00 <keystroke> :P
1878 2013-03-25 06:54:03 <jgarzik> On the topic of esoteric, out-of-band ways of distributing blocks,
1879 2013-03-25 06:54:10 <jgarzik> someone should be posting them to Usenet
1880 2013-03-25 06:54:16 <EvilPete> maybe that's the delay at BFL... waiting for Avalon chips?
1881 2013-03-25 06:54:23 <keystroke> what was this satellite block download i noticed?
1882 2013-03-25 06:54:25 <jgarzik> alt.binaries.bitcoin.blockchain :)
1883 2013-03-25 06:54:35 <jgarzik> keystroke: we do need sat...
1884 2013-03-25 06:54:40 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: "I have detected that usenet is not yet spammed to death. This is unacceptable. How can I fix this?"
1885 2013-03-25 06:54:45 <EvilPete> jgarzik: not as silly as it might sound
1886 2013-03-25 06:54:47 <keystroke> how would that work?
1887 2013-03-25 06:54:53 <keystroke> haha gmaxwell
1888 2013-03-25 06:55:00 <keystroke>     Blockchain over satellite receiver (peak average block chain datarate 14kbit/sec, sat bandwidth isn't that expensive)
1889 2013-03-25 06:55:06 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: Usenet has devolved into a binary distribution network :)
1890 2013-03-25 06:55:07 <gmaxwell> keystroke: it's pretty easy to rent capacity on existing sat transponders.
1891 2013-03-25 06:55:14 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: just echoing its current use
1892 2013-03-25 06:55:15 <EvilPete> blockchain on usenet wouldn't make a blip in the traffic
1893 2013-03-25 06:55:22 <keystroke> ahhh so broadcast it from satellite always, like GPS?
1894 2013-03-25 06:55:33 <jgarzik> keystroke: yep
1895 2013-03-25 06:55:39 <keystroke> that would be *awesome*
1896 2013-03-25 06:55:50 <keystroke> how would it sync old blocks though?
1897 2013-03-25 06:55:53 <gmaxwell> if you're willing to accept an old cband channel (e.g. big dish rx) I already priced this out and more than enough bandwidth would only cost on the order of $100/mo
1898 2013-03-25 06:56:06 <MC1984_> oh the rules for this bip32 thing samples less than onve every block so there are arcane conditions for triggering it
1899 2013-03-25 06:56:26 hbrehbreahr has joined
1900 2013-03-25 06:56:34 <gmaxwell> (and would give you coverage of one zone, e.g. most of north america and the northern parts of south america)
1901 2013-03-25 06:56:41 <CodeShark> satellite transmission means centralization
1902 2013-03-25 06:56:43 <hbrehbreahr> http://redd.it/1aylx0 █▓▒５０　ｂｉｔｃｏｉｎ　＝＄１1９９
1903 2013-03-25 06:56:54 <gmaxwell> ;;botsnack
1904 2013-03-25 06:56:54 <gribble> Forget the snack, just send me some bitcoins at 1MgD6rah5zUgEGYZnNmdpnXMaDR3itKYzU :)
1905 2013-03-25 06:57:11 <EvilPete> Also, dont forget dialup uucp if really desperate
1906 2013-03-25 06:57:31 <MC1984_> sat wont mean shit unless its our own bird up there
1907 2013-03-25 06:57:31 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: no, depending on satellite transmission.. but if its only one mechenism of many then its fine.
1908 2013-03-25 06:57:38 <CodeShark> you'd need at least two noncolluding souces of blocks to make sure you don't end up on a bad fork
1909 2013-03-25 06:57:41 <gmaxwell> MC1984_: good luck with that.
1910 2013-03-25 06:57:45 <CodeShark> more if possible :)
1911 2013-03-25 06:57:49 <MC1984_> yeah
1912 2013-03-25 06:58:08 Insu has joined
1913 2013-03-25 06:58:21 <MC1984_> maybe in 20 years with nanosats and private lift
1914 2013-03-25 06:58:28 <keystroke> haha
1915 2013-03-25 06:58:34 <keystroke> there are those microsats yea
1916 2013-03-25 06:58:47 <CodeShark> one more block to 951/1000
1917 2013-03-25 06:58:47 <keystroke> so it would constantly retransmit the blockchain?
1918 2013-03-25 06:59:05 <gmaxwell> "Block over TDD Relay operator."
1919 2013-03-25 06:59:11 <MC1984_> what if we just built a really stong catapult with an android phone in it
1920 2013-03-25 06:59:12 <keystroke> haha TDD
1921 2013-03-25 06:59:30 <keystroke> android phone plus solar panel
1922 2013-03-25 06:59:41 <gmaxwell> I bet you could send a header that way. :P poor operator.
1923 2013-03-25 06:59:43 <MC1984_> yah whateer hippy
1924 2013-03-25 06:59:45 <keystroke> now we're thinking... or it's really late
1925 2013-03-25 07:00:09 <keystroke> gotta add special checksums for TDD operators
1926 2013-03-25 07:00:24 <keystroke> what would the bandwidth be on cband?
1927 2013-03-25 07:00:43 witwit has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130307023931])
1928 2013-03-25 07:00:44 <keystroke> are there places you can uplink from?
1929 2013-03-25 07:00:45 Quazgaa has joined
1930 2013-03-25 07:01:39 <gmaxwell> keystroke: whatever you want it to be. IIRC my $100ish figure was for about 100KHz bandpass, you lose some to required guard area. The amount of rate you can get depends on how good you can assume the recivers antennas are...
1931 2013-03-25 07:01:57 btcur_ has joined
1932 2013-03-25 07:02:28 <gmaxwell> keystroke: "teleport" is the industry jargon. though for only 100KHz you'd need to share space on someone elses uplink.  To be totally freestanding you need to get a whole transponder and thats pretty costly, though a lot more bandwidth.
1933 2013-03-25 07:02:49 <gmaxwell> DBS does something like a 45mbit/sec stream on single transponder.
1934 2013-03-25 07:04:23 <keystroke> nice research gmaxwell
1935 2013-03-25 07:04:30 <keystroke> i'd love to see that done one day...
1936 2013-03-25 07:05:02 Boydy has joined
1937 2013-03-25 07:06:58 qwertyoruiop is now known as zz_qwertyoruiop
1938 2013-03-25 07:08:16 <CodeShark> if you need more than just the satellite source, what good is the satellite source when ground-based sources are so much cheaper?
1939 2013-03-25 07:08:45 bolted has joined
1940 2013-03-25 07:09:51 <bolted> In https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts, there are several contracts listed that suggest user X post a transaction to user Y’s server, without broadcasting to the network, and then allow user Y to broadcast to the network at a later date. Is avoiding double-spend in this case a trivial/solved problem?
1941 2013-03-25 07:10:19 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: sat is actually a very cost effective broadcast medium.
1942 2013-03-25 07:10:34 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: plus who says you don't have multiple independant sat sources?
1943 2013-03-25 07:10:40 <keystroke> 4 left
1944 2013-03-25 07:11:04 <keystroke> ok night everyone... good luck with v2 upgrade
1945 2013-03-25 07:11:12 <CodeShark> 4 more blocks, keystroke :)
1946 2013-03-25 07:11:15 <CodeShark> not gonna wait?
1947 2013-03-25 07:11:20 <keystroke> almost 3am :P
1948 2013-03-25 07:11:49 <CodeShark> watch, 227930 is v1 :p
1949 2013-03-25 07:11:53 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: or even a single sat source which broadcasts blocks signed by multiple trusted to not conspire parties? (so it's just as good as your two or three 'trusted' sources upto DOS)
1950 2013-03-25 07:11:57 coolsa_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1951 2013-03-25 07:12:02 <keystroke> hahhaa, if it is v1 that means satoshi is watching :P
1952 2013-03-25 07:12:08 <EvilPete> CodeShark: you know it,
1953 2013-03-25 07:12:28 <phantomcircuit> :|
1954 2013-03-25 07:12:36 <phantomcircuit> melted outlet
1955 2013-03-25 07:12:39 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
1956 2013-03-25 07:12:41 <phantomcircuit> that's not good
1957 2013-03-25 07:13:04 <CodeShark> gmaxwell, that's an interesting protocol idea - but doesn't it sort of defeat the proof-of-work concept?
1958 2013-03-25 07:13:53 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1959 2013-03-25 07:14:05 <EvilPete> The proof-of-work though is that you have the previous block to build upon.  Mining from sat would suck, but there's no reason why you couldn't use it as a data distributiion source.
1960 2013-03-25 07:14:40 NilamDoc has joined
1961 2013-03-25 07:14:48 pale_fire has quit (Quit: pale_fire)
1962 2013-03-25 07:14:53 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: No, it doesn't— its no worse than just getting your data through two sources or three. Not that just getting your data from three sources is actually secure, but there are degrees, and we're taking about how you do things like recover from internet partitions.
1963 2013-03-25 07:14:54 <CodeShark> point is right now blocks do not require a signature at all
1964 2013-03-25 07:15:04 <CodeShark> just proof-of-work
1965 2013-03-25 07:15:16 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I'm not suggesting blocks require signatures.
1966 2013-03-25 07:15:23 <CodeShark> you don't need to care whatsoever who published the block
1967 2013-03-25 07:15:34 <gmaxwell> I'm suggesting that a single sat link is just as good as three independant links if you add three signatures to it.
1968 2013-03-25 07:15:41 bolted has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1969 2013-03-25 07:15:59 <aceat64> I wonder if the APRS network could handle bitcoin traffic
1970 2013-03-25 07:15:59 <gmaxwell> Three independant links is not, however, actually good.
1971 2013-03-25 07:16:06 <CodeShark> the sat link operator could filter out blocks from certain sources
1972 2013-03-25 07:16:08 <EvilPete> CodeShark: proof-of-work is the same as the reason why you reset your hashing state when a new block is detected.  You're looking for a solution that is derived from $block - 1
1973 2013-03-25 07:16:09 <aceat64> it's the largest mesh network I know of
1974 2013-03-25 07:16:26 <sivu> central authority (preferably some agency in USA) needs to sign all blocks
1975 2013-03-25 07:16:32 <CodeShark> lol
1976 2013-03-25 07:16:34 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1977 2013-03-25 07:17:02 <phantomcircuit> sivu, i vote for the bureau of land management
1978 2013-03-25 07:17:05 <EvilPete> pulling a block from a satellite is no different to reading it from the p2p mesh broadcast
1979 2013-03-25 07:17:10 grau has joined
1980 2013-03-25 07:17:14 <gmaxwell> EvilPete: yes.. it is.
1981 2013-03-25 07:17:39 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: no, they couldn't. In such a scheme you would only accept blocks signed by your expected N parties. The sat operator could only completely deny service.
1982 2013-03-25 07:18:01 <CodeShark> I guess you could use p2p encryption and proxy networks
1983 2013-03-25 07:18:12 <EvilPete> gmaxwell: well, the block has to stand on its own merits to be accepted by the main network, no?  Does it chain properly? does it validate?
1984 2013-03-25 07:18:41 <gmaxwell> EvilPete: ...
1985 2013-03-25 07:18:45 keystroke has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1986 2013-03-25 07:18:55 <CodeShark> the risk of having a limited source of blocks is not in that the blocks you receive might be invalid - but in that you might not receive valid blocks
1987 2013-03-25 07:19:00 <EvilPete> maybe I'm thinking of something different..
1988 2013-03-25 07:19:27 <gmaxwell> EvilPete: A _fundimental_ assumption (the other one, of equal importance to the honest miners have the most hashpower) is that information is easily spread and hard to stifle ... bitcoin doesn't work if an attacker can prevent you from hearing about the longest chain.
1989 2013-03-25 07:19:41 <gmaxwell> as CodeShark says.
1990 2013-03-25 07:20:50 <gmaxwell> limited sources are not good. But in a partitioning event, having some source of blocks, even if they may be not the longest chain, may be better than no source... so long as you're aware of the risks, and do what you can to mitigate.
1991 2013-03-25 07:21:17 <EvilPete> Ah, now I understand. I was thinking in terms of using satellite as a parallel feed, not the single source.
1992 2013-03-25 07:21:56 <gmaxwell> EvilPete: sure, they'd be a parallel feed normally, but thats only super useful if the network fails, and then its a single source.
1993 2013-03-25 07:22:29 <gmaxwell> But yea, the question shouldn't be sat-or-not it should be if-my-sat-is-my-only-source-do-I-go-into-safe-mode.
1994 2013-03-25 07:23:34 <EvilPete> gmaxwell: I grew up in the middle of nowhere in western australia. I tended to think of satellite as unidirectional and that evil return path hack.
1995 2013-03-25 07:24:38 <aceat64> so hitting the 75% mark of BIP 34 is what caused that fork the other week?
1996 2013-03-25 07:24:52 <jgarzik> aceat64: no
1997 2013-03-25 07:25:09 <aceat64> oh wait, I see BIP 50, reading now
1998 2013-03-25 07:25:30 <EvilPete> aceat64: the fork was the old clients throwing an exception when trying to process a valid block and dropping it.
1999 2013-03-25 07:27:52 <CodeShark> 3 blocks to go
2000 2013-03-25 07:28:15 <CodeShark> or no, 2 :)
2001 2013-03-25 07:28:23 <EvilPete> aceat64: it was an undefinable 3rd party library limitation.  The exact number of locks required varied from client to client.
2002 2013-03-25 07:28:40 <aceat64> ouch
2003 2013-03-25 07:28:50 <CodeShark> stupid BDB
2004 2013-03-25 07:29:34 <doublec> CodeShark: let's hope the entire network doesn't segfault in 1 block ;)
2005 2013-03-25 07:29:47 <jgarzik> 3 more blocks
2006 2013-03-25 07:29:52 <EvilPete> doublec: that would be a learning experience :)
2007 2013-03-25 07:30:00 <CodeShark> lol
2008 2013-03-25 07:30:15 <CodeShark> ok, we're only a block away....
2009 2013-03-25 07:30:28 <doublec> block 226930 is the last v1 needed to pass, right?
2010 2013-03-25 07:30:39 <CodeShark> I believe so
2011 2013-03-25 07:30:40 <EvilPete> yeah, 227930 = exactly 950 of the last 1000
2012 2013-03-25 07:31:06 <CodeShark> but if 227930 is a v1, we need to wait another 21 blocks :)
2013 2013-03-25 07:31:23 <doublec> haha, I wonder if some evil pranksters are firing up their old node miners
2014 2013-03-25 07:31:32 <jgarzik> two blocks
2015 2013-03-25 07:31:41 <jgarzik> one to replace another v2, and one to replace the v1
2016 2013-03-25 07:32:46 <CodeShark> howso, jgarzik?
2017 2013-03-25 07:32:53 <EvilPete> doublec: not likely
2018 2013-03-25 07:33:09 CodesInChaos has joined
2019 2013-03-25 07:33:20 <jgarzik> CodeShark: my list of last 1000 blocks shows
2020 2013-03-25 07:33:21 <jgarzik> version 2
2021 2013-03-25 07:33:21 <jgarzik> version 1
2022 2013-03-25 07:33:30 <jgarzik> CodeShark: at the bottom of the pile (oldest)
2023 2013-03-25 07:33:36 <CodeShark> SELECT COUNT(`id`) FROM `blocks` WHERE `version` = 1 AND `height` > 226930 AND `in_main_chain` = 1; gives me 50
2024 2013-03-25 07:34:04 BlackPrapor has joined
2025 2013-03-25 07:34:17 <CodeShark> hmmm
2026 2013-03-25 07:34:30 <CodeShark> but SELECT COUNT(`id`) FROM `blocks` WHERE `version` = 2 AND `height` > 226930 AND `in_main_chain` = 1; gives me 949
2027 2013-03-25 07:34:51 <warren> Why is this so exciting? =)
2028 2013-03-25 07:34:54 <jgarzik> CodeShark: no, my bug
2029 2013-03-25 07:34:58 <EvilPete> 226930 is a v1.  when 227930 is out, are we counting from 0 or 1?
2030 2013-03-25 07:34:58 <jgarzik> CodeShark: off-by-one
2031 2013-03-25 07:35:01 <aceat64> hopefully everyone got the math right, no mix ups with =/<=/>=
2032 2013-03-25 07:35:09 <jgarzik> CodeShark is right
2033 2013-03-25 07:35:49 <EvilPete> 227930 evicts 226930 from the last 1000
2034 2013-03-25 07:36:20 dolbi_ has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2035 2013-03-25 07:36:53 <jgarzik> warren: Because... bitcoin hacking is like trying to fix and upgrade a car, while it is travelling down the road at 100 m.p.h., and you're not driving
2036 2013-03-25 07:37:00 <CodeShark> lol
2037 2013-03-25 07:37:22 <warren> jgarzik: I know, exciting!
2038 2013-03-25 07:37:29 <jgarzik> our software Upgrades Itself In The Freakin' Future, Man
2039 2013-03-25 07:37:42 <warren> https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/2012/03/bitcoin-war-the-first-real-threat-to-bitcoin/  How accurate is this guy's assessment?
2040 2013-03-25 07:37:44 <jgarzik> compiled-in forward thinking
2041 2013-03-25 07:38:28 <warren> I wonder if his #1 makes sense.
2042 2013-03-25 07:38:30 <jgarzik> warren: inaccurate
2043 2013-03-25 07:38:37 <gmaxwell> warren: gah don't repeat the @#$@# incompetence.
2044 2013-03-25 07:38:58 normanrichards has quit ()
2045 2013-03-25 07:39:11 Guest14129 is now known as Hasimir
2046 2013-03-25 07:39:12 Hasimir has quit (Changing host)
2047 2013-03-25 07:39:12 Hasimir has joined
2048 2013-03-25 07:39:16 jeewee1 has joined
2049 2013-03-25 07:39:17 <CodeShark> yeah, that article is not correct5
2050 2013-03-25 07:39:20 <warren> Right, I don't see how anyone could make *more* income from empty blocks.
2051 2013-03-25 07:39:35 <doublec> that post is ancient
2052 2013-03-25 07:39:37 jeewee has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2053 2013-03-25 07:39:42 <gmaxwell> warren: go read the pinned thread at the top here.
2054 2013-03-25 07:39:59 <warren> pinned?
2055 2013-03-25 07:40:10 <aceat64> it does make a kind of sense for a botnet to not bother with transactions
2056 2013-03-25 07:40:22 <CodeShark> the botnet explanation is the most plausible one
2057 2013-03-25 07:40:23 <warren> (hmm, there's no date on this post)
2058 2013-03-25 07:40:26 <CodeShark> :p
2059 2013-03-25 07:40:30 <EvilPete> come on 227930.. and now we find some tragic bug where supermajority rejects itself... :)
2060 2013-03-25 07:40:36 <doublec> warren: it's in the url
2061 2013-03-25 07:40:42 <CodeShark> haha, EvilPete
2062 2013-03-25 07:40:45 <warren> oh, damn.
2063 2013-03-25 07:40:48 <aceat64> EvilPete: standing by on mtgox with some USD :)
2064 2013-03-25 07:41:05 <doublec> warren: back then the 'mystery miner' was a hot topic
2065 2013-03-25 07:41:06 <CodeShark> this upgrade has been tested on testnet, no? :)
2066 2013-03-25 07:41:13 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: that miner was brutialized by the deployment of P2SH.
2067 2013-03-25 07:41:14 Boydy has quit (Quit: Erection reset by beer.)
2068 2013-03-25 07:41:15 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: yes.
2069 2013-03-25 07:41:19 <warren> Sorry, I've yet again proven I am an idiot.
2070 2013-03-25 07:41:19 <aceat64> CodeShark: nah, just shoved it out there
2071 2013-03-25 07:41:22 <aceat64> =P
2072 2013-03-25 07:41:38 <EvilPete> CodeShark: has been operational since 0.7.0
2073 2013-03-25 07:42:01 <gmaxwell> warren: aww. Its not you thats dumb its the world thats dumb.
2074 2013-03-25 07:42:05 <remotemass> I was thinking if it would all work in the same fashion if blocks were made of just one transaction. What do you reckon?
2075 2013-03-25 07:42:09 <doublec> obviously the supermajority code has broken mining, that's why it's taking so long
2076 2013-03-25 07:42:14 <jgarzik> I'm solo mining as hard as I can.  Let me see if I can start a CPU miner, and point it at eloipool too...
2077 2013-03-25 07:42:44 <aceat64> remotemass: first transaction is always the one that "creates" bitcoins, so a single transaction block basically has no transactions
2078 2013-03-25 07:43:13 <CodeShark> a single transaction block performs no services for the network, essentially
2079 2013-03-25 07:43:18 TradeFortress has joined
2080 2013-03-25 07:43:23 Guest16426 is now known as root2
2081 2013-03-25 07:43:34 <jgarzik> CodeShark: except distributing money into the money supply
2082 2013-03-25 07:43:34 <TradeFortress> bitcoind randomly exists, no warning message in debug.log
2083 2013-03-25 07:43:43 <TradeFortress> ubuntu 12.04
2084 2013-03-25 07:43:43 <aceat64> ok, I kicked on my GPU miner on my desktop
2085 2013-03-25 07:43:52 <CodeShark> distributing it into the hands of some bastard who doesn't care about the rest of us, jgarzik :p
2086 2013-03-25 07:43:53 root2 is now known as Guest96913
2087 2013-03-25 07:44:02 <aceat64> lets get that last block, at the expense of my local user experience
2088 2013-03-25 07:44:10 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2089 2013-03-25 07:44:23 <aceat64> TradeFortress: have you tried strace?
2090 2013-03-25 07:44:27 <EvilPete> I keep forgetting I have my gpu miners running
2091 2013-03-25 07:44:45 <remotemass> well, ok, so imagine there was no coinbase because the coins were distributed initially to all users. I'm just thinking in terms of model
2092 2013-03-25 07:44:59 <aceat64> I have a crappy GPU in my work desktop that I'm leaving running when I'm not there
2093 2013-03-25 07:45:15 * aceat64 laughs maniacally
2094 2013-03-25 07:45:44 <EvilPete> aceat64: cough
2095 2013-03-25 07:45:47 <TradeFortress> aceat64, doesn't help much as it crashes a few hours after I think
2096 2013-03-25 07:46:05 <aceat64> TradeFortress: ahh, so not instant crash
2097 2013-03-25 07:46:05 <TradeFortress> I'll leave strace open
2098 2013-03-25 07:46:05 <warren> I don't see how this v2 cutoff could possibly go wrong.
2099 2013-03-25 07:46:07 <TradeFortress> yeah
2100 2013-03-25 07:46:14 <aceat64> what version?
2101 2013-03-25 07:46:24 <aceat64> and from which repo
2102 2013-03-25 07:46:27 <EvilPete> aceat64: our machines at work are macs, so I get to take a small mh/sec hit but hey, free hashing
2103 2013-03-25 07:46:31 <TradeFortress> aceat64, master from github
2104 2013-03-25 07:46:40 <jgarzik> warren: I'm sure it will catch at least one miner with ancient software
2105 2013-03-25 07:46:51 <aceat64> TradeFortress: compiled? why not use the ppa?
2106 2013-03-25 07:46:52 <warren> jgarzik: their fault for sleeping at the helm
2107 2013-03-25 07:47:15 <EvilPete> aceat64: cgminer -k diablo -g 1 and dont even notice it is running
2108 2013-03-25 07:47:25 <TradeFortress> oh there's a ppa? I tried apt-get but that had some ancient version 0.3 (something)
2109 2013-03-25 07:47:39 <jgarzik> cpuminer up & running on all 8 cores!
2110 2013-03-25 07:47:49 <aceat64> TradeFortress: https://launchpad.net/~bitcoin/+archive/bitcoin
2111 2013-03-25 07:47:55 <aceat64> has bitcoind and bitcoin-qt
2112 2013-03-25 07:47:59 <EvilPete> come on 227930...
2113 2013-03-25 07:48:18 * doublec fires up his laptop gpu. that'll make the difference.
2114 2013-03-25 07:48:23 <aceat64> EvilPete: I've got bfgminer running in a screen session (ubuntu 12.04 at work)
2115 2013-03-25 07:48:37 <CodeShark> I don't even bother mining bitcoin :p
2116 2013-03-25 07:48:44 <CodeShark> I just don't have the hardware for it
2117 2013-03-25 07:48:56 <EvilPete> aceat64: I could fire up about 300k 24 core cpuminers, but that'd be a little more drama than I'd like
2118 2013-03-25 07:49:00 <TradeFortress> GPUs soon won't work
2119 2013-03-25 07:49:37 <remotemass> Still thinking about it. In such a model would the PoW be really needed. I think so, it would still be needed to prevent double spending
2120 2013-03-25 07:49:38 <TradeFortress> aceat64, then I type 'sudo apt-get install bitcoind' right? that'll use ppa instead of default repo?
2121 2013-03-25 07:49:42 <jgarzik> EvilPete: for a single block? surely not ;p
2122 2013-03-25 07:49:58 <jgarzik> 30 minutes top
2123 2013-03-25 07:50:00 <jgarzik> *tops
2124 2013-03-25 07:50:04 <aceat64> TradeFortress: don't forget to apt-get update first
2125 2013-03-25 07:50:10 <TradeFortress> of course I did that :)
2126 2013-03-25 07:50:51 <aceat64> TradeFortress: had to be said, I sometimes forget the small parts
2127 2013-03-25 07:50:58 <EvilPete> hey, my nvidia craptop is doing its part!
2128 2013-03-25 07:51:01 <aceat64> like adding water to microwave mac-and-cheese
2129 2013-03-25 07:51:19 <aceat64> fyi, that shit catches fire
2130 2013-03-25 07:51:21 <EvilPete> Ding!
2131 2013-03-25 07:51:24 <EvilPete> EclipseMC wins
2132 2013-03-25 07:51:42 mappppum has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2133 2013-03-25 07:51:54 <CodeShark> there it is!
2134 2013-03-25 07:52:09 <CodeShark> lol - a whole slew of them
2135 2013-03-25 07:52:18 <CodeShark> we're already at 227932
2136 2013-03-25 07:52:29 <doublec> start the conspiracy theories!
2137 2013-03-25 07:52:41 <CodeShark> ok, we've entered the v2-only era :)
2138 2013-03-25 07:52:52 <CodeShark> pop open the champaign bottles
2139 2013-03-25 07:53:02 bob123211 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2140 2013-03-25 07:53:16 <doublec> coinlab must have updated. weren't they doing v1 blocks?
2141 2013-03-25 07:53:19 bob12321 has joined
2142 2013-03-25 07:53:22 <EvilPete> aceat64: did somebody say microwaves? http://i.imgur.com/jqSTOMo.jpg
2143 2013-03-25 07:53:38 <CodeShark> lol
2144 2013-03-25 07:53:43 <aceat64> EvilPete: living up to your name I see
2145 2013-03-25 07:54:25 <EvilPete> EclipseMC also needs to fix their NTP server
2146 2013-03-25 07:54:51 <warren> what bug this v2 fix again?
2147 2013-03-25 07:54:56 <warren> did*
2148 2013-03-25 07:54:58 <EvilPete> aceat64: my nickname got me a seat in front of a grand jury about 3 years ago..
2149 2013-03-25 07:55:10 <CodeShark> warren: the v1 bug where blocks lacked a height number :p
2150 2013-03-25 07:55:30 <CodeShark> "bug"
2151 2013-03-25 07:55:43 <warren> Did that make anything vulnerable?
2152 2013-03-25 07:55:58 <jgarzik> EvilPete: you're permitted to change the block's ntime, within a certain range
2153 2013-03-25 07:56:20 <jgarzik> warren: made some things unspendable
2154 2013-03-25 07:56:26 <EvilPete> What was the problem with that though? pre-mining? insertion attack?
2155 2013-03-25 07:56:47 <CodeShark> warren: also, someone could send you a bunch of ancient blocks that had fake previous hashes and eat up your memory
2156 2013-03-25 07:56:59 <warren> ah
2157 2013-03-25 07:58:52 <EvilPete> "Enforce block and transaction uniqueness, and assist unconnected block validation."
2158 2013-03-25 07:59:09 Tron-_ is now known as Tron-
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2164 2013-03-25 08:01:14 <CodeShark> alright, bedtime for me.,,
2165 2013-03-25 08:01:22 <CodeShark> goodnight, fellas
2166 2013-03-25 08:01:41 saulimus has joined
2167 2013-03-25 08:02:34 <EvilPete> hah, I see Coinlab made it to v2 at the last minute.. 227931
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2170 2013-03-25 08:04:08 <aceat64> so when the BIPs talk about coinbase, what are they referring to?
2171 2013-03-25 08:05:19 rowit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2172 2013-03-25 08:05:31 * warren sees if we have a glossary anywhere...
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2174 2013-03-25 08:06:29 <warren> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Coinbase  Fail of name choice...
2175 2013-03-25 08:07:08 <aceat64> ok, so in the BIPs it's the data structure of the blockchain
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2186 2013-03-25 08:14:51 <jeewee1> is there an easy way to dump all transactions in a human readable textfile
2187 2013-03-25 08:15:14 <jeewee1> i would like to do some datamining
2188 2013-03-25 08:15:26 <petertodd> if anyoen wants to try something: http://pastebin.com/gwqpCcMs
2189 2013-03-25 08:15:29 giuseppe_ has joined
2190 2013-03-25 08:15:44 <petertodd> (speaking of blocks via satellite and other fun)
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2306 2013-03-25 09:20:28 <TradeFortress> for the rpc call sendfrom
2307 2013-03-25 09:20:36 <TradeFortress> shouldn't line 624 be if(nAmount >= nBalance)
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2319 2013-03-25 09:34:02 <MC1984_> so were on the v2 lock in and bitcoin hasnt blown up again correct
2320 2013-03-25 09:34:37 nus- has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2323 2013-03-25 09:38:19 <flyingkiwiguy> yet <grin>
2324 2013-03-25 09:38:41 giuseppe_ has joined
2325 2013-03-25 09:39:05 <MC1984_> dont jinx it
2326 2013-03-25 09:39:51 <flyingkiwiguy> ok - balance the karma, Bernake hasn't totally debased USD yet, either
2327 2013-03-25 09:41:48 * flyingkiwiguy ponders the day when people discuss the Bitcoin : gold ratio
2328 2013-03-25 09:43:30 <flyingkiwiguy> back on topic (sorry) - it seems that bitcoind send tx performance is a function of the # of inputs?
2329 2013-03-25 09:44:25 zoinky has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2330 2013-03-25 09:44:37 ItsDom_ has joined
2331 2013-03-25 09:45:26 <MC1984_> totally debased?
2332 2013-03-25 09:45:49 rowit has joined
2333 2013-03-25 09:45:55 <ItsDom_> When a message is sent to the network, is the origin IP address included in the message?
2334 2013-03-25 09:46:06 <MC1984_> isnt the dollar worth 99% less than during the great depression
2335 2013-03-25 09:46:23 <flyingkiwiguy> yes MC1984_, but there's still 1% left of it to buy gold with
2336 2013-03-25 09:46:25 giuseppe_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2337 2013-03-25 09:46:29 <MC1984_> lol
2338 2013-03-25 09:46:32 Jamesz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2339 2013-03-25 09:46:48 <MC1984_> hy would bitcoin stamp txn with an ip address
2340 2013-03-25 09:47:05 random_ has joined
2341 2013-03-25 09:47:17 <ItsDom_> I didn't say transaction.....
2342 2013-03-25 09:47:54 <EvilPete> ItsDom_: do you know for sure that one of the peers you're connected to isn't the FBI or CIA or China Intelligence?
2343 2013-03-25 09:47:55 <MC1984_> oh
2344 2013-03-25 09:48:04 <t7> MC1984_, it doesnt put IP addy on the block chain but it might be used in the client protocol somewhere
2345 2013-03-25 09:49:39 <flyingkiwiguy> ItsDom_: it was pointed out that a node connected to many other nodes could likely locate the source of a tx
2346 2013-03-25 09:49:56 <EvilPete> If my life or freedom was at stake, using bitcoin wouldn't be high on my to-do list.
2347 2013-03-25 09:50:22 <ItsDom_> flyingkiwiguy: thanks, that's what I was thinking about. So you say this is a known "weakness" (if you can call it that)
2348 2013-03-25 09:50:23 <ItsDom_> ?
2349 2013-03-25 09:50:24 <flyingkiwiguy> ItsDom_: use tor if you want some level of anonimity
2350 2013-03-25 09:51:06 <flyingkiwiguy> ItsDom_: it is not a weakness if you don't claim Bitcoin is anonymous, which no one should
2351 2013-03-25 09:51:28 jl2012 has joined
2352 2013-03-25 09:51:34 <ItsDom_> But I'm also thinking in the area of preventing spam/DDoS. I know there's relay restrictions and upper limits on what a single node can send
2353 2013-03-25 09:51:50 <flyingkiwiguy> not sure ItsDom_
2354 2013-03-25 09:52:00 <ItsDom_> but whats stopping a botnet with lots of nodes getting all nodes to send out as many messages as possible without quite hitting the limit?
2355 2013-03-25 09:52:12 <jl2012> Is a v1 / v2 chain fork happening?
2356 2013-03-25 09:52:21 <flyingkiwiguy> here's the slide set from Dan Kaminsky about it - http://www.slideshare.net/dakami/bitcoin-8776098
2357 2013-03-25 09:52:38 <EvilPete> ItsDom_: my bitcoind is connected to 244 peers, and has the IP address / port of something like 14,000 other peers.
2358 2013-03-25 09:52:39 * flyingkiwiguy is AFK
2359 2013-03-25 09:52:42 thegimp is now known as hmmmstrange
2360 2013-03-25 09:53:07 <random_> v1 blocks should be rejected by the netwrork now. right?
2361 2013-03-25 09:53:16 iwilcox has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2362 2013-03-25 09:53:18 <jl2012> I'm running 0.8.1 and only have 00000000000001f205a713a6e23dd2f8c3eed42ffbd765bdfe54d353757ee18a (227938, v2)
2363 2013-03-25 09:53:21 <EvilPete> Yes, v1 blocks are dead.
2364 2013-03-25 09:53:35 <jl2012> However, blockchain.info has no record of 00000000000001f205a713a6e23dd2f8c3eed42ffbd765bdfe54d353757ee18a, and have 0000000000000124fefda3e554e72cd08aad4b9caaa6e4c3221ae93238180c0c (227938, v1) and 000000000000025fcc58a882db6c3b47ea90935b522c08d279e415b9529de41d (227939, v1) instead
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2367 2013-03-25 09:54:08 <warren> blockchain probably is running a different implementation of the protocol that didn't set that rule properly
2368 2013-03-25 09:54:14 <jl2012> blockexplorer shows the v2 227938 block
2369 2013-03-25 09:54:19 rowit has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2370 2013-03-25 09:54:24 <kinlo> it took quite it's time
2371 2013-03-25 09:55:11 <kinlo> but still, according to my calculations, we're still at 50 blocks... will take 2 more blocks to get below the 5%
2372 2013-03-25 09:56:09 <EvilPete> kinlo: >= 950 v2. <= 50 triggers the rule change
2373 2013-03-25 09:56:21 giuseppe_ has joined
2374 2013-03-25 09:56:23 <kinlo> I know :)
2375 2013-03-25 09:56:49 <MC-Droid> are v1 blocks on a very small fork then or what
2376 2013-03-25 09:56:56 Andi has joined
2377 2013-03-25 09:56:57 <EvilPete> 227930 pushed out the v1 at 226930 and the >= 950 was activated.
2378 2013-03-25 09:57:10 <kinlo> yes, v1 blocks will get orphaned
2379 2013-03-25 09:57:30 <kinlo> but given that almost all pools have upgraded... they don't make a chance
2380 2013-03-25 09:57:45 <kinlo> too bad some poolops just don't know their pool is obsolete
2381 2013-03-25 09:58:34 <warren> The miners who understand v2 will see the v2 fork as longer, and try to mine on it.  v1 blocks will be shallow 1-block forks (I think) until they disappear entirely.
2382 2013-03-25 09:59:42 <EvilPete> guys, transition already happened
2383 2013-03-25 09:59:43 <EvilPete> debug.log:ERROR: AcceptBlock() : rejected nVersion=1 block
2384 2013-03-25 09:59:43 <EvilPete> debug.log:ERROR: ProcessBlock() : AcceptBlock FAILED
2385 2013-03-25 09:59:43 <EvilPete> debug.log:ERROR: AcceptBlock() : rejected nVersion=1 block
2386 2013-03-25 09:59:43 <EvilPete> debug.log:ERROR: ProcessBlock() : AcceptBlock FAILED
2387 2013-03-25 09:59:43 <EvilPete> debug.log:ERROR: AcceptBlock() : rejected nVersion=1 block
2388 2013-03-25 09:59:43 <EvilPete> debug.log:ERROR: ProcessBlock() : AcceptBlock FAILED
2389 2013-03-25 09:59:55 guruvan has joined
2390 2013-03-25 10:00:02 <random_> blockexplorer has different 227938  http://blockexplorer.com/block/00000000000001f205a713a6e23dd2f8c3eed42ffbd765bdfe54d353757ee18a - this is v2
2391 2013-03-25 10:00:22 <warren> (I meant to say v1 miners above)
2392 2013-03-25 10:00:51 <jl2012> pre-0.7.2 nodes will still find the v1 side chain as the longest chain
2393 2013-03-25 10:00:55 guruvan_ has joined
2394 2013-03-25 10:01:05 <EvilPete> Not for much longer
2395 2013-03-25 10:01:10 ww_ has joined
2396 2013-03-25 10:01:18 JDuke128 has joined
2397 2013-03-25 10:01:31 jtimon has joined
2398 2013-03-25 10:01:39 <EvilPete> even if there were 3 in a row v1's, the pre-0.7.2's will lose interest after 4 v2's come along
2399 2013-03-25 10:02:11 <random_> 227939 found by block explorer, and is v2
2400 2013-03-25 10:02:23 <jl2012> http://blockchain.info/blocks
2401 2013-03-25 10:02:48 <ThomasV> is there a replacement for transactionradar.com ?
2402 2013-03-25 10:03:06 <jl2012> blockchain.info does not even show the v2 blocks as "orphans", as if it doesn't see it at all
2403 2013-03-25 10:03:21 <ww_> what does this mean for the transactions
2404 2013-03-25 10:03:30 <EvilPete> all it means is blockchain.info doesn't have a supermajority rejection rule, it is just going by the longest valid chain it sees
2405 2013-03-25 10:03:39 <random_> yes - seems so
2406 2013-03-25 10:03:48 <random_> piuk needs to check it out
2407 2013-03-25 10:03:49 <EvilPete> the miners will make a 227940 soon enough and blockchain will switch over
2408 2013-03-25 10:03:59 <random_> k
2409 2013-03-25 10:04:34 <EvilPete> v1 had a lucky streak, and has the same depth as v2.. both are 227939. but v2 will win.
2410 2013-03-25 10:05:26 <EvilPete> v1 miners won't get their 100 confirmations, economics will force the issue
2411 2013-03-25 10:06:48 root2_ is now known as root2
2412 2013-03-25 10:07:13 Marcel has joined
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2415 2013-03-25 10:10:41 ww_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2416 2013-03-25 10:10:46 guruvan_ is now known as guruvan
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2418 2013-03-25 10:14:44 jeef has joined
2419 2013-03-25 10:15:08 <EvilPete> although v2 seems to be having really crappy luck..
2420 2013-03-25 10:15:20 <random_> yes indeed
2421 2013-03-25 10:17:33 <peawormsworth> anyone here have knowledge about using the mtgox api?
2422 2013-03-25 10:17:40 <EvilPete> if my understanding of what deepbit did, they won't reject v1 blocks. There was an implication they just patched it to add the version number.  It would be ironic if deepbit put some v2 blocks on the end of the v1 mini chain
2423 2013-03-25 10:18:17 <aceat64> EvilPete: that seems like a horrible idea
2424 2013-03-25 10:18:18 <EvilPete> new block
2425 2013-03-25 10:18:53 <EvilPete> v2 940 is out
2426 2013-03-25 10:19:11 <petertodd> taking awhile to show up on blockchain.info...
2427 2013-03-25 10:19:54 <random_> not seeing it on blockexplorer either
2428 2013-03-25 10:20:35 <random_> no next block on 939
2429 2013-03-25 10:20:36 <aceat64> I see it on blockexplorer.com
2430 2013-03-25 10:20:41 <Graet> i see it in my wallet
2431 2013-03-25 10:20:55 oleganza has joined
2432 2013-03-25 10:21:07 <aceat64> confirmed on both my 0.8.1 clients too
2433 2013-03-25 10:21:16 <petertodd> another block too: 227941
2434 2013-03-25 10:21:27 <aceat64> yup
2435 2013-03-25 10:21:34 rowit has joined
2436 2013-03-25 10:21:49 <EvilPete> looks like blockchain.info has some bug fixes to do.
2437 2013-03-25 10:23:05 pegu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2438 2013-03-25 10:23:06 <warren> I wonder if that broke their wallet.
2439 2013-03-25 10:23:08 <petertodd> just send a btc.info wallet a tx to see if it shows up in the next block
2440 2013-03-25 10:23:19 sgornick has joined
2441 2013-03-25 10:23:23 EasyAt has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2442 2013-03-25 10:23:26 <random_> blockexplorer has 940 now - so looking good
2443 2013-03-25 10:23:38 <aceat64> I sent a tx from my phone to computer at 939, still not showing up in any block
2444 2013-03-25 10:23:45 <aceat64> :\
2445 2013-03-25 10:24:32 <petertodd> that's bad, their database is acting real slow right now
2446 2013-03-25 10:24:39 agath_pd has joined
2447 2013-03-25 10:24:42 agath has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2448 2013-03-25 10:24:48 giuseppe_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2449 2013-03-25 10:24:51 <warren> Does gavin have their contact info?
2450 2013-03-25 10:25:06 <Graet> lol?
2451 2013-03-25 10:25:13 <petertodd> it's also inconsistent: normally they filter out !IsFinal() (nLockTime)'d tx's, yet one I just sent that was in the future from their point of view *did* show up
2452 2013-03-25 10:25:20 pizzacat has joined
2453 2013-03-25 10:25:21 <Graet> they are a 3rd party business
2454 2013-03-25 10:27:15 epscylonb is now known as epscy
2455 2013-03-25 10:27:39 <sgornick> > <warren> Does gavin have their contact info?
2456 2013-03-25 10:27:52 <sgornick> warren: are you asking about Blockchain.info's contact info?
2457 2013-03-25 10:27:59 <warren> I don't know who runs it.
2458 2013-03-25 10:28:02 <warren> I assume someone does.
2459 2013-03-25 10:28:03 <petertodd> oh, blocks just showed up on their main page
2460 2013-03-25 10:28:13 <jl2012> i think blockchain.info is fixed
2461 2013-03-25 10:28:44 <jl2012> and deepbit also mined on the correct chain
2462 2013-03-25 10:28:59 <petertodd> nah, that's actually hhtn pool
2463 2013-03-25 10:29:34 <warren> blockchain.info is really slow for me
2464 2013-03-25 10:29:39 <warren> and it's stuck in French mode
2465 2013-03-25 10:30:40 rowit has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2466 2013-03-25 10:30:54 <petertodd> confs are showing up in bt.info wallets correctly too
2467 2013-03-25 10:31:14 <epscy> another chain fork?
2468 2013-03-25 10:31:23 <EvilPete> amusing.. http://hhtt.1209k.com/ says "I am Fireduck, the programmer behind Satoshidice" - I bet that pool doesn't filter out SD transactions. :)
2469 2013-03-25 10:31:37 oleganza has quit (Quit: oleganza)
2470 2013-03-25 10:32:00 <EvilPete> epscy: Nope, chain's fine.. blockchain.info had a UI weirdness after some old miners had a run of good luck.
2471 2013-03-25 10:32:08 oleganza has joined
2472 2013-03-25 10:32:25 <EvilPete> if you can call doing work that gets orphaned "luck"
2473 2013-03-25 10:32:34 <warren> good bad luck
2474 2013-03-25 10:32:37 <warren> or bad good luck
2475 2013-03-25 10:34:19 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2476 2013-03-25 10:35:07 jl2012 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2477 2013-03-25 10:35:24 random_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2478 2013-03-25 10:35:24 d4de has joined
2479 2013-03-25 10:36:02 Casimir1904 has joined
2480 2013-03-25 10:36:30 Diablo-D3 has joined
2481 2013-03-25 10:36:46 <zebedee_> Ironically http://blockorigin.pfoe.be/top.php is following the wrong chain.
2482 2013-03-25 10:36:56 <epscy> EvilPete: ah cool
2483 2013-03-25 10:36:57 <kinlo> hmmz
2484 2013-03-25 10:37:13 <kinlo> zebedee_: how do you know ? :)
2485 2013-03-25 10:37:27 kadoban_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2486 2013-03-25 10:37:31 <zebedee_> It's count of v2 blocks went down from 95%.  Something's borked.  It's about 12 blocks behind now.
2487 2013-03-25 10:37:52 <kinlo> well, I'm pretty sure it's on the v2 chain
2488 2013-03-25 10:38:05 <zebedee_>  949 out of the latest 1000 blocks on version 2 (94.90%)
2489 2013-03-25 10:38:05 [Namworld] is now known as Namworld
2490 2013-03-25 10:38:06 <kinlo> and the list has always been behind 10 blocks, by design
2491 2013-03-25 10:38:14 <zebedee_> Oh I see, I didn't realise that.
2492 2013-03-25 10:38:19 <kinlo> yeah, there is a race condition I can't be bothered to fix
2493 2013-03-25 10:38:45 <kinlo> basicly, it retrieves the version in a second pass, so when calculating sometimes the version isn't there so it miscalculates
2494 2013-03-25 10:39:26 <kinlo> the whole idea was to show which pool finds which blocks, the version crap was just added very fast :)
2495 2013-03-25 10:39:52 <kinlo> in fact, I'm just going to remove it... we're v2 now anyway
2496 2013-03-25 10:40:24 oleganza has quit (Quit: oleganza)
2497 2013-03-25 10:48:21 one_zero has quit ()
2498 2013-03-25 10:55:01 nus-- is now known as nus
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2500 2013-03-25 10:57:30 rowit has joined
2501 2013-03-25 10:57:58 DrHaribo_ is now known as DrHaribo
2502 2013-03-25 10:58:16 <EvilPete> btcguild has been quiet for a while.. did they blow up?
2503 2013-03-25 11:02:04 nus has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2504 2013-03-25 11:03:25 CodesInChaos has joined
2505 2013-03-25 11:04:47 <EvilPete> hah, ask a silly question:
2506 2013-03-25 11:04:48 <EvilPete> BTC Guild was targetted by a DDoS at approximately 04:00 UTC on March 25th. The US-based getwork server (btcguild.com:8332) is still unreachable at this time. Stratum servers appear to have remained functional during the attack.
2507 2013-03-25 11:04:52 Marcel has quit (|HSD!~user@router2.hsdev.com|Remote host closed the connection)
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2511 2013-03-25 11:07:59 <ProfMac> Is this a script kiddie with a random IP to attack, or is it targeted specifically to bitcoin?
2512 2013-03-25 11:08:22 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2514 2013-03-25 11:10:09 <RoboTeddy> ProfMac: it's likely a deliberate attack on a pool operator
2515 2013-03-25 11:10:09 CodesInChaos_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2516 2013-03-25 11:10:15 <warren> EvilPete: We seriously need something like p2pool to become more tolerant of work return latency (properly crediting shares except on the boundaries of real blocks).  That way decentralized mining can become a lot more feasible.
2517 2013-03-25 11:10:27 <RoboTeddy> ProfMac: there's rather a history of such attacks: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=49150.0
2518 2013-03-25 11:10:44 <warren> currently p2pool doesn't grow beyond a certain point because 1) people don't understand it 2) it has some limitations in its current implementation
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2527 2013-03-25 11:14:53 <EvilPete> things sure slow down when btcguild has been offline for 3 hours.
2528 2013-03-25 11:15:16 Guest60432 is now known as Anduckkkkk
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2532 2013-03-25 11:16:25 <EvilPete> warren: there was a news article on their site about their bitcoind crashing..
2533 2013-03-25 11:16:28 Anduckkkkk is now known as Anduckkk
2534 2013-03-25 11:16:59 Saberu has joined
2535 2013-03-25 11:17:39 <warren> "their"?
2536 2013-03-25 11:17:45 <EvilPete> warren: I should check out p2pool sometime.
2537 2013-03-25 11:17:58 <EvilPete> warren: btcguild had a crashed bitcoind that affected payouts
2538 2013-03-25 11:18:17 <warren> EvilPete: p2pool is a brilliant design, it needs some work to be able to scale higher and to become more fair.
2539 2013-03-25 11:21:21 randy-waterhouse has left ("Freedom.")
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2547 2013-03-25 11:30:10 <area_> Am I correct in understanding that there isn't a command to query bitcoind for the current balance of an arbitrary address?
2548 2013-03-25 11:30:43 <Eliel> area_: yes
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2552 2013-03-25 11:33:12 <warren> I'm guessing bitsofproof can do that.
2553 2013-03-25 11:33:41 rowit has joined
2554 2013-03-25 11:34:43 <sipa1024> that would require a by-address index on either the full transaction log or the UTXO set
2555 2013-03-25 11:34:47 sipa1024 is now known as sipa
2556 2013-03-25 11:35:28 saulimus has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2557 2013-03-25 11:36:16 <area_> Ah, that's obvious in hindsight. Thanks, sipa
2558 2013-03-25 11:36:32 Guest43682 is now known as saulimus
2559 2013-03-25 11:37:09 froggy has joined
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2561 2013-03-25 11:40:56 <denisx> oh, the supermajority is reached and now only v2 blocks are accepted
2562 2013-03-25 11:40:58 <denisx> nice
2563 2013-03-25 11:42:51 rowit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2564 2013-03-25 11:49:01 ralphtheninja has joined
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2566 2013-03-25 11:55:08 <EvilPete> hah, btcguild just dropped a block after 3.5 hours
2567 2013-03-25 11:55:38 bakingbread has joined
2568 2013-03-25 11:56:10 <EvilPete> that was a lot of hashpower offline
2569 2013-03-25 11:58:37 <TradeFortress> is CPU % 400% normal when you dl the blockchain
2570 2013-03-25 11:58:48 <TradeFortress> and I'm unable to ssh to the server -.-
2571 2013-03-25 11:59:06 ielo has joined
2572 2013-03-25 12:00:56 rdymac has joined
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2576 2013-03-25 12:04:07 <denisx> TradeFortress: with 0.8.x, yes
2577 2013-03-25 12:04:39 <TradeFortress> denisx, seems like something happened, I couldn't ssh into my server, wasn't responding to shutdown requests.. restarted and will see how it goes
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2590 2013-03-25 12:11:12 mria has joined
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2592 2013-03-25 12:11:16 <mria> Hi
2593 2013-03-25 12:11:17 guruvan- is now known as guruvan
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2603 2013-03-25 12:22:27 <TradeFortress> hi mria
2604 2013-03-25 12:24:13 pecket has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2605 2013-03-25 12:26:17 robocoin has joined
2606 2013-03-25 12:27:44 <sipa> TradeFortress: yes, it uses as much CPU as it can get to verify the chain quickly
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2628 2013-03-25 12:47:24 <Sydna> at any time has someone been building `bitcoind` for powerpc?
2629 2013-03-25 12:48:00 <Diablo-D3> no
2630 2013-03-25 12:48:06 <Diablo-D3> it may not be endian safe either
2631 2013-03-25 12:48:50 grau has joined
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2636 2013-03-25 12:52:43 <_dr> Sydna: it might also not be fun running on the arch, i don't want to know how long the initial sync will take ;)
2637 2013-03-25 12:53:35 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2638 2013-03-25 12:53:45 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2639 2013-03-25 12:53:47 <Sydna> of course not, but come on, I got three Xserves for $50
2640 2013-03-25 12:53:53 <Sydna> who wouldn't want to use them? ;)
2641 2013-03-25 12:54:19 * sipa 
2642 2013-03-25 12:54:20 <Sydna> the main issue is that I'm missing some leveldb stuff.
2643 2013-03-25 12:54:26 <aceat64> Avalon Batch Three is open
2644 2013-03-25 12:54:30 guruvan_ is now known as guruvan
2645 2013-03-25 12:54:45 <sipa> Sydna: is it little endian?
2646 2013-03-25 12:54:47 <_dr> aceat64: eta?
2647 2013-03-25 12:54:52 qbasicer has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2648 2013-03-25 12:55:05 <aceat64> May 5st, 2013 according to their site
2649 2013-03-25 12:55:14 <aceat64> love the "5st"
2650 2013-03-25 12:55:18 <_dr> 5st, seems legit :P
2651 2013-03-25 12:56:02 <Sydna> sipa: I'm actually not sure
2652 2013-03-25 12:56:16 rowit has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2653 2013-03-25 12:56:29 <_dr> wiki says big
2654 2013-03-25 12:56:35 <_dr> for ppc
2655 2013-03-25 12:56:46 <sipa> wiki says: boots in big, but can switch to little at runtime
2656 2013-03-25 12:56:47 jeewee has joined
2657 2013-03-25 12:56:49 <sipa> and it depends on the OS
2658 2013-03-25 12:56:58 <Sydna> debian in this case
2659 2013-03-25 12:57:17 <sipa> Sydna: well, if it's big endian, bitcoind will simply not work at all
2660 2013-03-25 12:57:42 <_dr> aceat64: unit price, 75 bitcoins?!
2661 2013-03-25 12:57:56 <Sydna> sipa: I'll get back to you on this one.
2662 2013-03-25 12:58:19 <sipa> and you shouldn't be missing leveldb, as it's included in bitcoin's source
2663 2013-03-25 12:58:26 <kjj__> funny.  the new expensive Avalons cost just about what I paid for my cheap batch 2 avalons, in BTC
2664 2013-03-25 12:58:33 kjj__ is now known as kjj
2665 2013-03-25 12:59:05 <EvilPete> _dr: 75+
2666 2013-03-25 12:59:13 jeewee1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2667 2013-03-25 12:59:26 guruvan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2668 2013-03-25 12:59:39 <_dr> why is it so expensive? do they think people will buy them for that price?
2669 2013-03-25 12:59:53 <EvilPete> _dr: because they likely will sell
2670 2013-03-25 13:00:03 agath_pd has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2671 2013-03-25 13:00:12 agath_pd has joined
2672 2013-03-25 13:00:32 <_dr> I'd have ordered for 1.5k$, but not for 5.5k$ :)
2673 2013-03-25 13:00:34 <kjj> yeah, they'll sell out
2674 2013-03-25 13:01:04 RoboTeddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2675 2013-03-25 13:01:09 <_dr> damn you *shakes fist at bfl*
2676 2013-03-25 13:01:10 <EvilPete> Hell, I'd have bought one if I could have got the BTC in time, but I'm stuck with USD.
2677 2013-03-25 13:01:18 <sipa> maybe they're not aware (or pretend not to be aware :p) of the recent exchange rate increase :p
2678 2013-03-25 13:01:43 <EvilPete> they are aware, they dropped from 88-108 -> 75 -> 72
2679 2013-03-25 13:01:45 duckybsd has joined
2680 2013-03-25 13:02:36 <EvilPete> their price in yuan worked out to be $5099, it's no accident
2681 2013-03-25 13:02:48 kalleboo is now known as away!~kalleboo@i118-18-137-116.s11.a046.ap.plala.or.jp|kalleboo
2682 2013-03-25 13:03:08 <_dr> why, oh why did i chose hpc over hardware design
2683 2013-03-25 13:03:23 <Sydna> sipa: you were of course right about the leveldb stuff, I misread the error
2684 2013-03-25 13:04:15 <EvilPete> 12 minutes in:
2685 2013-03-25 13:04:16 <EvilPete> You cannot add that amount of "Avalon ASIC Unit ? Batch Three" to the cart because there is not enough stock (291 remaining).
2686 2013-03-25 13:04:28 <EvilPete> out of 600
2687 2013-03-25 13:05:21 <EvilPete> You cannot add that amount of "Avalon ASIC Unit ? Batch Three" to the cart because there is not enough stock (69 remaining).
2688 2013-03-25 13:05:23 <Diablo-D3> lol
2689 2013-03-25 13:05:27 <Diablo-D3> LOL
2690 2013-03-25 13:06:21 <_dr> 13:37  _dr$ why is it so expensive? do they think people will buy them for that price?
2691 2013-03-25 13:06:24 <_dr> so much for that
2692 2013-03-25 13:06:43 <EvilPete> You cannot add that amount of "Avalon ASIC Unit ? Batch Three" to the cart because there is not enough stock (67 remaining).
2693 2013-03-25 13:07:03 <kjj> yeah, their store still sucks
2694 2013-03-25 13:07:26 <EvilPete> At least its not lagging to hell this time
2695 2013-03-25 13:07:43 <kjj> the account login page automatically pulled up someone else's username, and what I really hope wasn't his password
2696 2013-03-25 13:07:46 <Sydna> you'd think for $4k a piece they'd hire a decent developer
2697 2013-03-25 13:07:52 <EvilPete> You cannot add that amount of "Avalon ASIC Unit ? Batch Three" to the cart because there is not enough stock (9 remaining).
2698 2013-03-25 13:08:04 <Sydna> kjj: what, how?
2699 2013-03-25 13:08:20 ralphtheninja has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2700 2013-03-25 13:08:32 b00tkitz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2701 2013-03-25 13:08:57 <EvilPete> Out of stock
2702 2013-03-25 13:09:16 kalleboo has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
2703 2013-03-25 13:09:18 b00tkitz has joined
2704 2013-03-25 13:09:25 <kjj> Sydna: got that a lot last time.  the server isn't handing out unique cookies, or isn't passing them around properly
2705 2013-03-25 13:09:35 [\\\] has joined
2706 2013-03-25 13:09:43 <Sydna> that's obscenely dangerous
2707 2013-03-25 13:09:52 <[Tycho]> "(-10 in stock)", what ? :)
2708 2013-03-25 13:09:55 <area_> EvilPete: How many did they start with?
2709 2013-03-25 13:10:01 ralphtheninja has joined
2710 2013-03-25 13:10:01 <kjj> heh.  go read the threads from batch 2's first shot
2711 2013-03-25 13:10:01 <EvilPete> 600 I think
2712 2013-03-25 13:10:04 <Sydna> is their mining software any better designed/
2713 2013-03-25 13:10:16 <EvilPete> Sydna: not really
2714 2013-03-25 13:10:19 <kjj> they are using Wordpress
2715 2013-03-25 13:10:32 <Sydna> sheesh
2716 2013-03-25 13:10:43 <[Tycho]> "(-15 in stock)"
2717 2013-03-25 13:11:00 <Sydna> nasty
2718 2013-03-25 13:11:05 <Sydna> so they sold more than they made?
2719 2013-03-25 13:11:19 <kjj> in Batch 2, Attempt 1, people were clicking checkout on the store, and getting redirected to the payment processor, who then showed them a random order from a different person
2720 2013-03-25 13:11:33 guruvan has joined
2721 2013-03-25 13:11:35 <EvilPete> Sydna: basically the modules are RS232 and a tiny hacked wifi OpenWRT wifi router to drive it
2722 2013-03-25 13:11:59 <Sydna> kjj: I'm not sure how you could even fuck up that badly. using crc32 for the session keys or something?
2723 2013-03-25 13:12:03 guruvan_ has joined
2724 2013-03-25 13:12:08 <Sydna> EvilPete: wait, the Avalon miners mine over wifi?
2725 2013-03-25 13:12:24 <EvilPete> back in stock
2726 2013-03-25 13:12:29 <EvilPete> Sydna: no, but they can
2727 2013-03-25 13:12:36 <EvilPete> wifi and ethernet
2728 2013-03-25 13:12:42 <kinlo> why not, stratum is very efficient
2729 2013-03-25 13:12:49 <kinlo> wifi shouldn't be the issue
2730 2013-03-25 13:12:58 <EvilPete> its a tiny linux box that runs a hacked cgminer or bfgminer, I don't recall which
2731 2013-03-25 13:13:06 <Sydna> you clearly don't live in a built up area. wifi is dodgy as soon as there's a lot of clients
2732 2013-03-25 13:13:09 grau has joined
2733 2013-03-25 13:13:19 <EvilPete> and talks to the miner modules over a usb->rs232 device
2734 2013-03-25 13:13:20 <kjj> stock is reduced when an order is made.  if it isn't completed, it eventually times out and the quantity in stock goes back up
2735 2013-03-25 13:13:27 <Sydna> EvilPete: I'm looking at the photos of the insides now, that's hilarious. a random USB dongle just hot glued in
2736 2013-03-25 13:13:27 grau has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2737 2013-03-25 13:13:34 tyn has joined
2738 2013-03-25 13:13:47 <kinlo> Sydna: dunno, I have plenty of other access points in my building, I just have decent wifi hardware, so it all works
2739 2013-03-25 13:14:00 Anduckkk has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2740 2013-03-25 13:14:10 <EvilPete> Sydna: on the plus side, you can pull the modules out and drive them with another front end. you can compile the code yourself to run on anything, it doesn't have to be the OpenWRT box
2741 2013-03-25 13:14:43 <Sydna> kinlo: so do I, there's just a lot of residential routers set to full power. everything I do gets drowned out. in the end I just switched to an illegal channel.
2742 2013-03-25 13:14:50 <EvilPete> (136 remaining).
2743 2013-03-25 13:15:09 <kjj> I really hope that someone knowledgable gets an avalon before me and rips the control FPGA stream out of the router.  I don't want to use their thing, I want to plug the USB cable into my existing mining nodes
2744 2013-03-25 13:15:28 ralphtheninja has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2745 2013-03-25 13:15:29 <Sydna> EvilPete: good point. I guess I just expected something more elegant. even a raspberrypi in there would be prettier.
2746 2013-03-25 13:15:42 <EvilPete> I have a 5GHz access point in each room that I'm likely to use a machine in and a couple of 2.4's for where I dont care
2747 2013-03-25 13:15:46 <Sydna> and just as modular. the things are practically disposable.
2748 2013-03-25 13:16:22 <Sydna> sipa: up to half an hour for compiling openssl ;)
2749 2013-03-25 13:17:09 ralphtheninja has joined
2750 2013-03-25 13:17:46 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2751 2013-03-25 13:17:54 jurov has quit (Quit: User accidentally the)
2752 2013-03-25 13:18:05 nus has joined
2753 2013-03-25 13:18:36 <EvilPete> back down to 23 again
2754 2013-03-25 13:18:52 nus- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2755 2013-03-25 13:19:25 unbalanced has joined
2756 2013-03-25 13:19:44 parasciidic has quit (Quit: Quit:)
2757 2013-03-25 13:19:54 grau has joined
2758 2013-03-25 13:20:50 grau has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2759 2013-03-25 13:20:51 <EvilPete> So, in 1 hour, how many of these preorders will be on ebay, do you think?
2760 2013-03-25 13:21:18 jurov has joined
2761 2013-03-25 13:21:43 <Sydna> there's lots of BFL ones already
2762 2013-03-25 13:21:54 <Sydna> for half the price of the avalon
2763 2013-03-25 13:22:04 <InsuDra> don't care, unless they get some competition asap this isn't looking to well
2764 2013-03-25 13:22:15 <Sydna> how do you mean?
2765 2013-03-25 13:22:42 rowit has joined
2766 2013-03-25 13:23:09 <InsuDra> less distribution of mining power
2767 2013-03-25 13:23:32 <Sydna> conversely the rate will be stupidly high
2768 2013-03-25 13:23:44 <Sydna> I mean, it already is stupidly high
2769 2013-03-25 13:24:14 froggy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2770 2013-03-25 13:24:36 <Sydna> if you'd told me in 2009 that bitcoin would be pushing 6TH/s in 2013, I'd have laughed you out of the building
2771 2013-03-25 13:24:45 qwertyoruiop is now known as zz_qwertyoruiop
2772 2013-03-25 13:24:47 guruvan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2773 2013-03-25 13:25:24 guruvan_ is now known as guruvan
2774 2013-03-25 13:28:47 guruvan- has joined
2775 2013-03-25 13:29:22 zz_qwertyoruiop is now known as qwertyoruiop
2776 2013-03-25 13:30:01 agricocb1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2777 2013-03-25 13:31:27 bakingbread has quit (Quit: quit)
2778 2013-03-25 13:31:28 rdponticelli has joined
2779 2013-03-25 13:31:40 ducch is now known as Happzz
2780 2013-03-25 13:32:17 bakingbread has joined
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2782 2013-03-25 13:36:25 Tryton has joined
2783 2013-03-25 13:38:05 rdymac has joined
2784 2013-03-25 13:38:49 qwertyoruiop is now known as zz_qwertyoruiop
2785 2013-03-25 13:45:14 Saberu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2786 2013-03-25 13:45:39 sanchaz has joined
2787 2013-03-25 13:46:35 Saberu has joined
2788 2013-03-25 13:46:55 pecket has joined
2789 2013-03-25 13:50:53 plains is now known as plains_
2790 2013-03-25 13:51:40 <sipa> ;;bc,nethash
2791 2013-03-25 13:51:41 <gribble> 53543.895000805307
2792 2013-03-25 13:51:50 <sipa> Sydna: you know we're doing 50 TH/s now? :p
2793 2013-03-25 13:52:40 banghouse has joined
2794 2013-03-25 13:52:47 plains_ has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2795 2013-03-25 13:52:57 <Sydna> sipa: mind blown.
2796 2013-03-25 13:53:55 <sipa> Sydna: we've done over 6TH/s ever since june 2011
2797 2013-03-25 13:55:22 bakingbread has quit (Quit: quit)
2798 2013-03-25 13:55:43 bakingbread has joined
2799 2013-03-25 13:55:47 orblivion has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2800 2013-03-25 13:55:53 drizztbsd has joined
2801 2013-03-25 13:55:53 drizztbsd has quit (Changing host)
2802 2013-03-25 13:55:53 drizztbsd has joined
2803 2013-03-25 13:57:12 <Sydna> impressive
2804 2013-03-25 13:57:24  has quit (Clown|!~clown@static-87-79-93-140.netcologne.de|Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2805 2013-03-25 13:57:26 <Sydna> I'm curious what the cumulative bandwidth is too
2806 2013-03-25 13:57:43 <Sydna> if I open incoming connections on my server, I can almost fill the pipes with bitcoin traffic
2807 2013-03-25 13:57:52 <EvilPete> what's more impressive is that BYC drifted up rather than down, as the avalon sales completed.  I'd have expected avalon to start cashing out already.
2808 2013-03-25 13:57:56 <EvilPete> BTC
2809 2013-03-25 13:58:21 <leviathanbaphz> im a little mad that i thoght litecoin was going to be worthless
2810 2013-03-25 13:58:27 <leviathanbaphz> and now people are mining on it
2811 2013-03-25 13:58:50 <leviathanbaphz> when it first came out i mined like 600ltc in like 3 days and traded it for like .3 btc
2812 2013-03-25 13:58:57 <n1c> haha yeah
2813 2013-03-25 13:59:00 <n1c> Everything's like that though.
2814 2013-03-25 13:59:06 <leviathanbaphz> and now wishing i'd kept mining and not traded out haha
2815 2013-03-25 13:59:07 Saberu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2816 2013-03-25 13:59:09 <n1c> I'm sure most people here saw BTC when it was sub $1
2817 2013-03-25 13:59:12 <leviathanbaphz> funny how that happens
2818 2013-03-25 13:59:31 <leviathanbaphz> but yeah ive been following btc too since like april 2011 and never got any till this year
2819 2013-03-25 13:59:36 <jaakkos> did anyone ever plot 'bitcoin days left' instead of 'bitcoin days destroyed'?
2820 2013-03-25 13:59:42 <n1c> Being able to tell the future is really difficult :)
2821 2013-03-25 14:00:08 <EvilPete> I thought I was being reckless when I bought in a chunk at $12.
2822 2013-03-25 14:00:11 Guest89757 is now known as topace
2823 2013-03-25 14:00:16 topace has quit (Changing host)
2824 2013-03-25 14:00:16 topace has joined
2825 2013-03-25 14:00:17 rowit has joined
2826 2013-03-25 14:00:22 <Sydna> if I was avalon, I'd be cashing out just enough to cover expenses
2827 2013-03-25 14:00:29 <Sydna> that would probably be the smart move
2828 2013-03-25 14:00:47 <EvilPete> Sydna: last time around you could see their sell orders popping up on mtgox periodically
2829 2013-03-25 14:01:32 <Sydna> ah
2830 2013-03-25 14:01:54 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2831 2013-03-25 14:02:46 orblivion has joined
2832 2013-03-25 14:03:10 normanrichards has joined
2833 2013-03-25 14:03:28 <EvilPete> Surely there'd be a local exchange in China worth using by now though..
2834 2013-03-25 14:04:44 grau has joined
2835 2013-03-25 14:05:24 <EvilPete> ERROR: AcceptBlock() : rejected nVersion=1 block
2836 2013-03-25 14:05:30 <EvilPete> only 3 x v1's so far
2837 2013-03-25 14:05:42  has joined
2838 2013-03-25 14:06:10 Saberu has joined
2839 2013-03-25 14:06:53 grau has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2840 2013-03-25 14:07:01 wrabbit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2841 2013-03-25 14:07:22 wrabbit has joined
2842 2013-03-25 14:08:58 <EvilPete> hah, nope. it was 1 block from 3 peers.  I must have some old peers connected
2843 2013-03-25 14:08:58 grau has joined
2844 2013-03-25 14:09:03 jdnavarro has joined
2845 2013-03-25 14:09:38 guruvan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2846 2013-03-25 14:10:06 jdnavarro has quit (Client Quit)
2847 2013-03-25 14:10:13 rowit has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2848 2013-03-25 14:10:16 <EvilPete> received block 0000000000000124fefda3e554e72cd08aad4b9caaa6e4c3221ae93238180c0c
2849 2013-03-25 14:10:17 <EvilPete> ERROR: AcceptBlock() : rejected nVersion=1 block
2850 2013-03-25 14:10:17 <EvilPete> ERROR: ProcessBlock() : AcceptBlock FAILED
2851 2013-03-25 14:10:17 <EvilPete> Misbehaving: 71.56.238.226:60756 (0 -> 0)
2852 2013-03-25 14:10:17 <EvilPete> Misbehaving: 99.8.206.57:8333 (0 -> 0)
2853 2013-03-25 14:10:17 <EvilPete> Misbehaving: 96.28.13.69:46846 (0 -> 0)
2854 2013-03-25 14:10:23 jdnavarro has joined
2855 2013-03-25 14:10:49 <[Tycho]> We are already over 95% ?
2856 2013-03-25 14:10:56 guruvan- has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2857 2013-03-25 14:11:24 jdnavarro has quit (Client Quit)
2858 2013-03-25 14:12:28 <[Tycho]> Wow, that site says that we are.
2859 2013-03-25 14:13:29 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2860 2013-03-25 14:13:53 joe_k has joined
2861 2013-03-25 14:14:30 <EvilPete> [Tycho]: yes, block 227930 was the tipping point
2862 2013-03-25 14:14:41 <[Tycho]> Cool.
2863 2013-03-25 14:14:43 jdnavarro has joined
2864 2013-03-25 14:14:46 <EvilPete> also, avalon is back in stock again.  71 left
2865 2013-03-25 14:15:14 <sivu> hmm maybe i should upgrade my node
2866 2013-03-25 14:16:21 <EvilPete> sivu: I would if I could find another 40BTC.. lol
2867 2013-03-25 14:17:33 <sivu> who cares about 40btc, its just change
2868 2013-03-25 14:17:56 toffoo has quit ()
2869 2013-03-25 14:18:17 <lianj> EvilPete: for 5k usd
2870 2013-03-25 14:18:27 <Sydna> sivu: I just proudly stashed 5BTC :(
2871 2013-03-25 14:18:39 <EvilPete> sivu: maybe to an early adopter, for me I'm stuck with USD in the bank
2872 2013-03-25 14:19:53 <EvilPete> lianj: yeah, I just didn't plan ahead with enough time.
2873 2013-03-25 14:20:41 ralphtheninja has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2874 2013-03-25 14:21:29 Xeno-Genesis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2875 2013-03-25 14:22:00 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
2876 2013-03-25 14:22:13 ralphtheninja has joined
2877 2013-03-25 14:22:38 jdnavarro has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2878 2013-03-25 14:22:41 Guest92922 has quit (Changing host)
2879 2013-03-25 14:22:41 Guest92922 has joined
2880 2013-03-25 14:22:45 Guest92922 is now known as WKNiGHT
2881 2013-03-25 14:23:03 jdnavarro has joined
2882 2013-03-25 14:23:04 JDuke128 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2883 2013-03-25 14:23:06 zooko has joined
2884 2013-03-25 14:23:52 m0mchil has joined
2885 2013-03-25 14:25:14 X-Scale has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2886 2013-03-25 14:26:42 guruvan has joined
2887 2013-03-25 14:27:11 guruvan_ has joined
2888 2013-03-25 14:27:22 witwit has joined
2889 2013-03-25 14:27:53 kantlivelong has joined
2890 2013-03-25 14:28:03 JDuke128 has joined
2891 2013-03-25 14:31:34 <EvilPete> an they're out again
2892 2013-03-25 14:33:14 alphaguru has joined
2893 2013-03-25 14:34:24 RazielZ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2894 2013-03-25 14:34:40 xenesis has joined
2895 2013-03-25 14:34:44 <lianj> EvilPete: 355k to them then, nice
2896 2013-03-25 14:35:19 benwoody has joined
2897 2013-03-25 14:35:31 area_ is now known as area
2898 2013-03-25 14:35:38 area has quit (Changing host)
2899 2013-03-25 14:35:38 area has joined
2900 2013-03-25 14:37:50 rowit has joined
2901 2013-03-25 14:38:15 RazielZ has joined
2902 2013-03-25 14:39:45 <EvilPete> they must be yoyoing through the 15 minute bitpay window.. 95 again available
2903 2013-03-25 14:41:46 deadweas1l is now known as deadweasel
2904 2013-03-25 14:42:11 * jgarzik buys one
2905 2013-03-25 14:42:30 JDuke128 has quit (Quit: [BB])
2906 2013-03-25 14:43:22 <sipa> is the 3rd batch supposed to be faster than the first two?
2907 2013-03-25 14:43:30 <EvilPete> sipa: nope
2908 2013-03-25 14:43:42 <EvilPete> jgarzik: *jealous*
2909 2013-03-25 14:43:46 schmoe has joined
2910 2013-03-25 14:44:03 <jgarzik> sipa: nope
2911 2013-03-25 14:44:15 <sipa> then i certainly don't plan on paying 4x as much for it
2912 2013-03-25 14:44:29 <jgarzik> sipa: Just vastly more expensive :)  They noted in their newsletter the choice for them is (a) mining farm or (b) sell at higher price
2913 2013-03-25 14:44:42 <schmoe> hey guys how come the last block is older than the one before? is it ok? https://blockchain.info/de/
2914 2013-03-25 14:44:46 <Sydna> 4k is probably what they wanted for the first batch, but people wouldn't have been willing to risk it
2915 2013-03-25 14:44:48 <sipa> schmoe: perfectly fine
2916 2013-03-25 14:45:04 <sipa> schmoe: just can't be lower than the median of the past 11 blocks
2917 2013-03-25 14:45:10 jtimon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2918 2013-03-25 14:45:21 <schmoe> ok thanks! what a relieve :D
2919 2013-03-25 14:45:27 <sipa> ;;genrate 60000
2920 2013-03-25 14:45:28 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2921 2013-03-25 14:45:29 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 60000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 6695826.2826, is 4.50644770523 BTC per day and 0.187768654385 BTC per hour.
2922 2013-03-25 14:45:35 HM has quit ()
2923 2013-03-25 14:45:50 <EvilPete> .. if you had one today
2924 2013-03-25 14:46:16 normanrichards has quit ()
2925 2013-03-25 14:46:17 <EvilPete> by the time you got a batch 3 it'd probably be 20 million
2926 2013-03-25 14:46:28 <sipa> EvilPete: i'm perfectly aware of that :)
2927 2013-03-25 14:46:30 <sivu> ;;genrate 9000
2928 2013-03-25 14:46:31 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 9000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 6695826.2826, is 0.675967155785 BTC per day and 0.0281652981577 BTC per hour.
2929 2013-03-25 14:46:49 <EvilPete> even 1 btc per day pays for itself
2930 2013-03-25 14:48:12 <lianj> hm still find 5k blackbox hardware a bit expensive. maybe if you take this btc from your early stack its fine though
2931 2013-03-25 14:48:22 rowit has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2932 2013-03-25 14:48:22 HM has joined
2933 2013-03-25 14:48:35 chmod755 has joined
2934 2013-03-25 14:48:45 <flyingkiwiguy> useless factiod for today: TOP10 supercomputers could do approx. 45MHash/sec agregate processing (1GH/GPU, 0.5MH/CPU core)
2935 2013-03-25 14:49:40 <chmod755> useless factoid for today: buy ASICs for 100m USD - take over network
2936 2013-03-25 14:49:43 <sivu> where do you get that cpu core speed
2937 2013-03-25 14:50:07 vigilyn has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2938 2013-03-25 14:50:07 vigilyn2 has joined
2939 2013-03-25 14:50:51 lukestokes has joined
2940 2013-03-25 14:51:14 tonikt has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2941 2013-03-25 14:51:29 <_dr> from bullshit inc. :)
2942 2013-03-25 14:52:30 <lukestokes> hello all. Was sent here from #bitcoin about a mining question. I'm not clear on what transactions are actually in the blocks that are discovered every 10 minutes or so
2943 2013-03-25 14:52:34 <_dr> supermuc at lrz is currently the fastest in europe, it has >100.000 cores. each core can do ~3mhash so yeah
2944 2013-03-25 14:52:36 <EvilPete> lianj: I would have bought 5 if a certain company hadn't had a bad week..
2945 2013-03-25 14:52:40 <lukestokes> I thought I read somewhere it was 6 transactions plus the address of the miner
2946 2013-03-25 14:52:44 <_dr> and supermuc isn't even in the top10 anymore
2947 2013-03-25 14:52:59 <Eliel> if you've received a 0 fee transaction from someone, can you easily resend it to your own address with a fee and bump up it's priority that way?
2948 2013-03-25 14:53:38 <sipa> lukestokes: whatever transactions miners want to put in it
2949 2013-03-25 14:53:57 <sipa> lukestokes: limited by the size of the block (in bytes) and a few other constraints
2950 2013-03-25 14:54:21 <lukestokes> Something becomes confirmed when it's either added by a new block of a new block is verified, right?
2951 2013-03-25 14:54:25 <_dr> also, supercomputers come with nvidia gpus, not amd. there's no way they do 1gh per gpu ;)
2952 2013-03-25 14:54:27 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
2953 2013-03-25 14:54:48 <lukestokes> so if new transactions go into the block chain every 10 minutes, doesn't that limit the throughput of the system? I guess I'm starting to understand the block size concern
2954 2013-03-25 14:55:16 <lukestokes> so there could be thousands of transactions in the block?
2955 2013-03-25 14:55:38 <sipa> something like 4000 is the maximum, yes
2956 2013-03-25 14:55:48 <sipa> as typical transactions are around 250 bytes
2957 2013-03-25 14:55:50 <[7]> which is about 24k per hour
2958 2013-03-25 14:56:11 kikkerdril has joined
2959 2013-03-25 14:56:13 BTC_Bear is now known as BTC_Bear|hbrntng
2960 2013-03-25 14:56:17 <EvilPete> lukestokes: payment transactions happen over the peer-to-peer network. Miners gather up transactions and make a permanent record of them.  Multiple confirmations means the network has established a consensis about the permanency of a transaction.
2961 2013-03-25 14:56:17 <lukestokes> thanks all, that helps clear up some confusion Ihad
2962 2013-03-25 14:56:27 <sipa> lukestokes: if you assume every transaction must be one on the block chain, then yes it limits those
2963 2013-03-25 14:56:34 <sivu> lukestokes: if you check blockchain.info, it shows you the number of transactions per block
2964 2013-03-25 14:56:46 <lukestokes> for some reason I thought the number of transactions in a block was very small… no sure where I read that
2965 2013-03-25 14:57:16 <lukestokes> sivu: thanks, will do. I've looked at lots of things there, but never inspected an individual block. makes sense.
2966 2013-03-25 14:57:32 <sivu> recent blocks have 200-700 transactions in them
2967 2013-03-25 14:57:50 <lukestokes> which is funny considering that's the information right on the dang home page.
2968 2013-03-25 14:57:51 zveda has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2969 2013-03-25 14:57:52 <lukestokes> heheh
2970 2013-03-25 14:57:55 * lukestokes is a perma newb
2971 2013-03-25 14:57:58 Fanquake has joined
2972 2013-03-25 14:59:02 joe_k has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2973 2013-03-25 14:59:12 <lukestokes> i was trying to decide last night if I would buy into the mining thing and order an Avalon. In the time it took me to get breakfast and boot up, the decision was made for me as they already sold out. :)
2974 2013-03-25 14:59:13 holorga_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2975 2013-03-25 14:59:19 zveda has joined
2976 2013-03-25 14:59:41 ikbenwouter has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2977 2013-03-25 14:59:45 <lukestokes> but it increased my interest in knowing more about how the mining process works. Thanks again for your patience, I'm sure you probably have to answer the same questions all the time.
2978 2013-03-25 15:00:03 agath_pd has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2979 2013-03-25 15:00:10 agath has joined
2980 2013-03-25 15:00:59 <sivu> *hug*
2981 2013-03-25 15:01:18 testnode9 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2982 2013-03-25 15:01:30 <sivu> hm. that was for a wife.
2983 2013-03-25 15:01:39 <sivu> on a different window
2984 2013-03-25 15:01:41 * helo wonders if paypal is thinking about offering off-blockchain bitcoin transactions
2985 2013-03-25 15:01:46 testnode9 has joined
2986 2013-03-25 15:02:00 <brocktice> helo: what makes you think paypal would touch bitcoin with a 10-foot pole?
2987 2013-03-25 15:02:09 <[7]> helo: they certainly won't, and that will be their fate
2988 2013-03-25 15:02:21 <EvilPete> helo: bitcoin eliminates paypal's business model.. why would they do anything with it?
2989 2013-03-25 15:02:24 <helo> bitcoin needs a big trustworthy player to handle large volumes of off-blockchain transactions
2990 2013-03-25 15:02:37 <[7]> paypal == !trustworthy
2991 2013-03-25 15:02:38 <brocktice> helo: there are plenty of businesses already working on that
2992 2013-03-25 15:02:41 <[7]> not just !=
2993 2013-03-25 15:02:43 <helo> and that big trustworthy player will make a lot of money with such a service
2994 2013-03-25 15:02:46 <jgarzik> lukestokes: they reopened the Avalon store.  I just bought one a few minutes ago.
2995 2013-03-25 15:02:46 <brocktice> PayPal is... well, it's disappointing.
2996 2013-03-25 15:02:50 <sipa> i disagree completely :)
2997 2013-03-25 15:02:50 <sipa> bitcoin is only a very rudimentary payment system, it is primarily a currency
2998 2013-03-25 15:03:16 <helo> [7]: they have their problems, but massive numbers of people already trust paypal
2999 2013-03-25 15:03:18 * [7] hopes ripple will take care of that in the long run
3000 2013-03-25 15:04:31 <helo> and any off-chain transaction system will need widespread trust and support
3001 2013-03-25 15:04:58 <brocktice> paypal was once a daring startup that wanted to bring money into the 21st century.
3002 2013-03-25 15:05:06 <brocktice> All the people that cared about that have long since left.
3003 2013-03-25 15:05:11 <EvilPete> helo: and paypal can do the usual "oops lol, we're keeping your btc for 180+ days, have a nice day!"
3004 2013-03-25 15:05:25 <gonffen> jgarzik: and they're all gone :)
3005 2013-03-25 15:05:36 <helo> everyone that has added support for accepting bitcoin will have to add support for whatever services pop up to handle off-blockchain transactions
3006 2013-03-25 15:05:59 <EvilPete> gonffen: they seem to be coming back every 5-10 minutes, presumably as people aren't paying bitpay
3007 2013-03-25 15:06:01 <lukestokes> jgarzik: woah… huh
3008 2013-03-25 15:06:03 kikkerdril is now known as ikbenwouter
3009 2013-03-25 15:06:07 <EvilPete> gonffen: just less each time
3010 2013-03-25 15:06:11 <gonffen> EvilPete: ah cool. thank you
3011 2013-03-25 15:06:14 john5223 has joined
3012 2013-03-25 15:06:43 <helo> direct bitcoin acceptance for most businesses is a temporary measure
3013 2013-03-25 15:06:44 <gonffen> when did they end up going live?
3014 2013-03-25 15:06:52 Tryton has left ()
3015 2013-03-25 15:07:28 rdymac has joined
3016 2013-03-25 15:07:54 <EvilPete> gonffen: 5:30am pacific time
3017 2013-03-25 15:08:04 <gonffen> thank you
3018 2013-03-25 15:08:10 benwoody has left ()
3019 2013-03-25 15:10:02 <[7]> helo: that's why I hope that one major service will be accepted by almost everyone
3020 2013-03-25 15:10:17 <[7]> ideally ripple, because that's fully decentralized, just like bitcoin
3021 2013-03-25 15:11:04 <[7]> you will of course have to trust one or more entities (gateways / "banks") within ripple
3022 2013-03-25 15:11:11 <flyingkiwiguy> sivu: very rough approximation dividing MH/GHz @ https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison
3023 2013-03-25 15:11:46 <[7]> but as soon as there are sufficient such gateways that trust each other, basically everyone will be able to pay to everyone who trusts any of those gateways
3024 2013-03-25 15:11:52 duckybsd has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3025 2013-03-25 15:11:53 saulimus has joined
3026 2013-03-25 15:11:54 <[7]> just like how it works with fiat banks these days
3027 2013-03-25 15:11:59 <[7]> just with much smaller fees
3028 2013-03-25 15:12:08 <helo> [7]: yeah, to be practical to everyone, it needs to be one trustworthy service
3029 2013-03-25 15:12:36 <t7> ripplepay.com has a revoked cert...
3030 2013-03-25 15:12:49 <[7]> or a communication protocol shared by several trustworthy services that relay transactions across each other, like ripple
3031 2013-03-25 15:13:45 <[7]> ripplepay != the ripple I'm talking about
3032 2013-03-25 15:13:48 viperhr has joined
3033 2013-03-25 15:14:05 <[7]> and ripplepay has a perfectly valid cert, and I didn't get a revocation warning either...
3034 2013-03-25 15:14:12 <Sydna> same.
3035 2013-03-25 15:14:28 <t7> how curious
3036 2013-03-25 15:14:37 <Sydna> what is showing it as revoked?
3037 2013-03-25 15:15:10 <t7> firefox
3038 2013-03-25 15:15:19 rowit has joined
3039 2013-03-25 15:15:20 <Sydna> HM
3040 2013-03-25 15:15:27 <Sydna> digicert is showing it as revoked too
3041 2013-03-25 15:15:33 FredEE has joined
3042 2013-03-25 15:15:38 <Sydna> but not chrome, or safari
3043 2013-03-25 15:16:05 <Sydna> nor firefox
3044 2013-03-25 15:16:40 <[7]> firefox/chrome aren't showing it over here either
3045 2013-03-25 15:16:41 <Sydna> hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
3046 2013-03-25 15:16:57 <Sydna> verisigns SSL certificate checker requires.. Java
3047 2013-03-25 15:17:02 <Sydna> in browser Java.
3048 2013-03-25 15:17:05 <[7]> lol
3049 2013-03-25 15:17:06 <Sydna> what jokers.
3050 2013-03-25 15:17:17 <t7> haha
3051 2013-03-25 15:17:36 <Sydna> but yeah, some online tools are showing it as revoked too
3052 2013-03-25 15:18:00 <t7> also i think i read about ripple before... you sign that you gave someone x amount and thats their proof that you did?
3053 2013-03-25 15:18:37 <Sydna> t7: what IP are you seeing for ripplepay.com?
3054 2013-03-25 15:19:37 <[7]> t7: ripple's transaction mechanism works similar to bitcoin's, just that they only store a ledger (a list of address balances) instead of the whole blockchain, and rely on network consensus rather than proof of work
3055 2013-03-25 15:19:54 <t7> 108.59.2.73
3056 2013-03-25 15:19:58 idstam has joined
3057 2013-03-25 15:20:09 <Sydna> curious
3058 2013-03-25 15:20:15 * Sydna shrugs
3059 2013-03-25 15:20:16 <t7> so 51% is easier or harder ?
3060 2013-03-25 15:20:33 <EvilPete> something faster than the verisign java crap: http://www.sslshopper.com/ssl-checker.html
3061 2013-03-25 15:21:04 <Sydna> EvilPete: about half the web services show it as revoked, half didn't
3062 2013-03-25 15:21:05 Michail1_ is now known as Michail1
3063 2013-03-25 15:21:12 <sipa> t7: 51% only makes sense in bitcoin's attack model
3064 2013-03-25 15:21:40 <t7> i should read then
3065 2013-03-25 15:21:48 <sipa> ripple has no mining
3066 2013-03-25 15:22:06 <Sydna> hahahaha. global signs website is behind cloudflare
3067 2013-03-25 15:22:16 <Sydna> and is of course down
3068 2013-03-25 15:22:33 <[7]> I'm wondering if this is in fact a CA somewhere in the path that has been revoked
3069 2013-03-25 15:22:45 <[7]> because I can't find the cert's fingerprint in comodo's CRL
3070 2013-03-25 15:23:00 <EvilPete> t7: short version of 51%: suppose you paid somebody 10btc and it got 6 confirmations.  You decided you wanted to pay somebody else.. when somebody has more than 51% they can force mine an alternative chain that shows you paying somebody else and outrun the orginal main chain.
3071 2013-03-25 15:23:26 <sipa> EvilPete: eh, no
3072 2013-03-25 15:23:34 <[7]> t7: 51% of the nodes that you trust is the 51% attack equivalent in ripple
3073 2013-03-25 15:23:40 <sipa> EvilPete: 51% doesn't allow you to create invalid transactions
3074 2013-03-25 15:23:41 safra has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3075 2013-03-25 15:24:30 n1c has quit (Quit: UP UP AND AWAY)
3076 2013-03-25 15:24:32 nsillik has joined
3077 2013-03-25 15:24:33 <EvilPete> sipa: I tangled my words.  51% allows you to establish an alternate double spend, through brute force, no?
3078 2013-03-25 15:24:45 <sipa> EvilPete: it allows you to determine which of conflicting but valid transactions are accepted, and when
3079 2013-03-25 15:25:01 <sipa> but you can't ever spend coins without the private key of the owner
3080 2013-03-25 15:25:02 guruvan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3081 2013-03-25 15:25:04 schmoe has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3082 2013-03-25 15:25:24 guruvan_ is now known as guruvan
3083 2013-03-25 15:25:51 t7 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3084 2013-03-25 15:26:38 sebuba has joined
3085 2013-03-25 15:27:00 rowit has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3086 2013-03-25 15:28:10 <EvilPete> sipa: yep. that's what I thought I was trying to say. 51% doesn't allow you to steal somebody's coins.  It allow somebody to change history, potentially altering the consensis of which fork of a double spend is accepted
3087 2013-03-25 15:28:31 <BlueMatt_> hey, woke up to a v2 world :)
3088 2013-03-25 15:28:38 BlueMatt_ is now known as BlueMatt
3089 2013-03-25 15:28:41 BlueMatt has quit (Changing host)
3090 2013-03-25 15:28:41 BlueMatt has joined
3091 2013-03-25 15:29:42 parasciidic has joined
3092 2013-03-25 15:29:43 gavinandresen has joined
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3094 2013-03-25 15:29:43 gavinandresen has joined
3095 2013-03-25 15:30:06 <lianj> so every v1 must be ignored now?
3096 2013-03-25 15:30:09 <EvilPete> BlueMatt: indeed, 227930 was the tipping point
3097 2013-03-25 15:30:15 <BlueMatt> lianj: yep
3098 2013-03-25 15:30:15 parasciidic has quit (Client Quit)
3099 2013-03-25 15:30:50 guruvan- has joined
3100 2013-03-25 15:31:38 <lianj> can you point me to the code in bitcoind?
3101 2013-03-25 15:31:58 <EvilPete> lianj: there was an interesting issue earlier. btcguild stopped producing blocks for > 3 hours, and two v1 miners got lucky in a row.
3102 2013-03-25 15:32:10 <EvilPete> lianj: src/main.cpp, search for "950"
3103 2013-03-25 15:32:18 <lianj> merci
3104 2013-03-25 15:33:05 <EvilPete> lianj: looks like this:
3105 2013-03-25 15:33:06 <EvilPete> received block 0000000000000124fefda3e554e72cd08aad4b9caaa6e4c3221ae93238180c0c
3106 2013-03-25 15:33:07 <EvilPete> ERROR: AcceptBlock() : rejected nVersion=1 block
3107 2013-03-25 15:33:07 <EvilPete> ERROR: ProcessBlock() : AcceptBlock FAILED
3108 2013-03-25 15:33:07 <EvilPete> Misbehaving: 96.28.13.69:46846 (0 -> 0)
3109 2013-03-25 15:34:24 bakingbread has quit (Changing host)
3110 2013-03-25 15:34:24 bakingbread has joined
3111 2013-03-25 15:34:46 <EvilPete> I have a Misbehaving line for each node that tried to send it to me
3112 2013-03-25 15:34:59 random_cat has joined
3113 2013-03-25 15:35:49 <[7]> ...along with something that made blockchain.info show the v1 fork as the better chain for quite a while, ignoring better v2 blocks
3114 2013-03-25 15:36:22 <[7]> comboy: wow, nice "all time high" sign :)
3115 2013-03-25 15:36:50 <Sydna> comboy: next time make it a bong.
3116 2013-03-25 15:36:57 <Sydna> all time high, get it?
3117 2013-03-25 15:37:09 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
3118 2013-03-25 15:37:21 <comboy> [7]: it must have been some time since last time you visited bitcoinity ;)
3119 2013-03-25 15:37:23 guruvan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3120 2013-03-25 15:37:52 <comboy> Sydna: everybody is high anyway watching these price changes ;)
3121 2013-03-25 15:37:58 <[7]> heh, I usually didn't visit it during an all time high apparently
3122 2013-03-25 15:38:41 guruvan- has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3123 2013-03-25 15:38:45 <Sydna> combody: high, bitcoinity would be completely unusable
3124 2013-03-25 15:39:01 <rdponticelli> Latly you could hardly see other thing that the all time high :)
3125 2013-03-25 15:39:53 <[7]> I was watching more closely during the downward spikes than during the upward ones
3126 2013-03-25 15:39:57 <[7]> trying to get some cheap coins
3127 2013-03-25 15:40:07 safra has joined
3128 2013-03-25 15:40:29 <[7]> I really shouldn't have sold all those coins a month ago
3129 2013-03-25 15:41:03 m0mchil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3130 2013-03-25 15:41:48 guruvan has joined
3131 2013-03-25 15:41:56 <comboy> [7]: I really shouldn't have sold all these coins when they approached $2 ;) but oh well
3132 2013-03-25 15:42:16 guruvan- has joined
3133 2013-03-25 15:42:17 <[7]> seriously... 600% in a month! wtf!
3134 2013-03-25 15:42:46 <sipa> i shouldn't have sold my coins when they hit $0.4 :(
3135 2013-03-25 15:43:13 <comboy> poor sipa ;)
3136 2013-03-25 15:43:28 <_dr> dare i ask how many coins it was?
3137 2013-03-25 15:43:35 <sipa> _dr: not many :p
3138 2013-03-25 15:43:47 si72 has joined
3139 2013-03-25 15:44:05 <sipa> we were having a very similar discussion on the zurich meetup two weeks ago
3140 2013-03-25 15:44:30 <sipa> TD won with "satoshi sent me 50 BTC once, and i just sent them back, because they were worthless"
3141 2013-03-25 15:44:42 parasciidic has joined
3142 2013-03-25 15:44:55 <[7]> :)
3143 2013-03-25 15:45:02 <comboy> well it was actually pretty hard to stick to these coins, nobody knew about them and I thought $2 was a huge bubble
3144 2013-03-25 15:45:03 agricocb has joined
3145 2013-03-25 15:45:14 <sipa> at the time, it was a huge bubble :)
3146 2013-03-25 15:45:21 <comboy> :)
3147 2013-03-25 15:45:22 * [7] wonders if what we're currently observing is a huge bubble
3148 2013-03-25 15:45:34 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3149 2013-03-25 15:45:42 <BlueMatt> ofc we are
3150 2013-03-25 15:45:59 <saulimus> it'a a matter of who runs out of money to buy
3151 2013-03-25 15:46:01 <sipa> seems very likely
3152 2013-03-25 15:46:21 <[7]> sure, we have that 200% cyprus bubble that got out of hand
3153 2013-03-25 15:46:34 <sivu> everything is a bubble
3154 2013-03-25 15:46:48 <[7]> but I wonder if something along the lines of 40-50 will be sustained
3155 2013-03-25 15:47:00 <_dr> you never know, that cyprus bubble might encourage other countries like spain, italy, france to invest
3156 2013-03-25 15:47:06 <BlueMatt> only time will tell ;)
3157 2013-03-25 15:47:11 <_dr> before they are struck with similar meassures
3158 2013-03-25 15:47:24 <BlueMatt> wiki down?
3159 2013-03-25 15:49:28 <comboy> nah but it sometimes take ages to load lately
3160 2013-03-25 15:50:30 TD has joined
3161 2013-03-25 15:51:35 <comboy> when talking about bubble, I couldn't help but to watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6IQ_FOCE6I for a hundreth time  :)
3162 2013-03-25 15:52:45 rowit has joined
3163 2013-03-25 15:54:23 discrete has joined
3164 2013-03-25 15:56:41 kerum has joined
3165 2013-03-25 15:57:27 safra has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3166 2013-03-25 15:59:03 johnsoft has joined
3167 2013-03-25 16:00:02 <helo> hitler?
3168 2013-03-25 16:00:57 Descry has joined
3169 2013-03-25 16:01:11 <helo> is that you?
3170 2013-03-25 16:01:24 johnsoft1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3171 2013-03-25 16:02:03 saulimus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3172 2013-03-25 16:02:20 saulimus has joined
3173 2013-03-25 16:03:08 Gnaf has joined
3174 2013-03-25 16:04:25 rowit has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3175 2013-03-25 16:04:58 <comboy> 9
3176 2013-03-25 16:05:28 <[Tycho]> what was the first bitcoind version with wallet encryption ?
3177 2013-03-25 16:07:00 <BlueMatt> 0.4 or 0.5
3178 2013-03-25 16:07:01 <kinlo> 0.4
3179 2013-03-25 16:07:02 <BlueMatt> not sure
3180 2013-03-25 16:07:36 <kinlo> http://bitcoin.org/releases/2011/09/23/v0.4.0.html
3181 2013-03-25 16:07:49 <kinlo> no offence, but the changelogs were better then they are now
3182 2013-03-25 16:08:20 <kinlo> 0.8 just says it's a major release to improve performance and handle increasing volume
3183 2013-03-25 16:08:36 <kinlo> there could be a bit more in the changelog
3184 2013-03-25 16:09:30 chmod755 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3185 2013-03-25 16:09:36 Isokiv has joined
3186 2013-03-25 16:09:39 chmod755 has joined
3187 2013-03-25 16:09:40 chmod755 has quit (Changing host)
3188 2013-03-25 16:09:40 chmod755 has joined
3189 2013-03-25 16:09:42 <jgarzik> kinlo: Gavin's release announcement contained considerable detail, I thought.
3190 2013-03-25 16:10:02 <kinlo> jgarzik: perhaps, but this is what I found after a quick search
3191 2013-03-25 16:10:12 mortikia has quit (Disconnected by services)
3192 2013-03-25 16:10:21 <gavinandresen> kinlo: patches welcome, doc/release-notes.txt
3193 2013-03-25 16:10:39 <Isokiv> Hello, a bitcoin service I use just did the unthinkable. I was charged a tx fee for withdrawing my btc, but they did not pay the tx fee. How bad off am I when the transaction size is 339 bytes ?
3194 2013-03-25 16:10:45 <kinlo> oh, in the source
3195 2013-03-25 16:11:09 <kinlo> gavinandresen: is the website too in github or something?
3196 2013-03-25 16:11:21 <kinlo> I noticed that the mailinglists are not on the website
3197 2013-03-25 16:11:22 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
3198 2013-03-25 16:11:24 <gavinandresen> kinlo: yes, github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org
3199 2013-03-25 16:11:27 luke-jr__ is now known as Luke-Jr
3200 2013-03-25 16:11:33 <[Tycho]> Isokiv: depends of TX output amount and priority.
3201 2013-03-25 16:11:56 <kinlo> I could try to add them, but I don't know which ones existed
3202 2013-03-25 16:12:00 <kinlo> -ed
3203 2013-03-25 16:12:00 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3204 2013-03-25 16:12:06 mortikia has joined
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3206 2013-03-25 16:12:34 chmod755 has joined
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3208 2013-03-25 16:12:34 chmod755 has joined
3209 2013-03-25 16:12:37 sneak has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3210 2013-03-25 16:12:50 <Isokiv> Tycho: could you talk me trough finding out those, or would it just be easyer to link the tx ID ?
3211 2013-03-25 16:13:05 MobPhone has joined
3212 2013-03-25 16:13:19 sneak has joined
3213 2013-03-25 16:13:19 sneak has quit (Changing host)
3214 2013-03-25 16:13:20 sneak has joined
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3216 2013-03-25 16:14:07 <Isokiv> gavinandersen: has my keychain reached you yet ?
3217 2013-03-25 16:15:08 chmod755 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3218 2013-03-25 16:15:11 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
3219 2013-03-25 16:15:23 chmod755 has joined
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3221 2013-03-25 16:15:24 chmod755 has joined
3222 2013-03-25 16:15:29 <gavinandresen> Isokiv: did you send just a pgp key with no message attached a couple days ago? I wondered what that was....
3223 2013-03-25 16:16:06 <Isokiv> gavinandersen: no Im the bitcoin merchant who mailed you about wanting to donate you a physical bitcoin keychain
3224 2013-03-25 16:16:41 <gavinandresen> Oh!  a few months ago?  If so, then yes, my wife uses that keychain proudly.
3225 2013-03-25 16:16:46 <[Tycho]> Isokiv: TX hash would be enough to see.
3226 2013-03-25 16:17:19 chmod755 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3227 2013-03-25 16:17:22 <Isokiv> gavinandersen: excelent, Im always a bit worried about how awful postal services are :)
3228 2013-03-25 16:17:44 <Isokiv> Tycho: de3c02664fe72c0e61f9a0ce484b6e472b3bf4f2231b738090465da1d920be0a
3229 2013-03-25 16:17:53 chmod755 has joined
3230 2013-03-25 16:18:17 <[Tycho]> Isokiv: looks fine to me.
3231 2013-03-25 16:19:17 <Isokiv> Tycho: phew, thank you for your time
3232 2013-03-25 16:19:32 <[Tycho]> Fee is not required for this TX.
3233 2013-03-25 16:20:04 chmod755_ has joined
3234 2013-03-25 16:20:07 <Isokiv> I do however still feel that it's immoral to charge it, if they dont pay it to miners.
3235 2013-03-25 16:20:50 <[7]> well, unless the fee is small enough to just cover the average fee that they need to pay for outgoing transactions
3236 2013-03-25 16:20:56 chmod755__ has joined
3237 2013-03-25 16:21:10 <EvilPete> Isokiv: willing to mention who?
3238 2013-03-25 16:21:12 <[7]> i.e. if some transactions that they send are more expensive than what they charge
3239 2013-03-25 16:22:13 ThomasV has joined
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3241 2013-03-25 16:24:09 <BlueMatt> well I was going to link to https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Changelog but it appears no one has updated that in a while either
3242 2013-03-25 16:24:14 <BTCOxygen> Now that blockexplorer is not working , Is there a way to look into testnet ?
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3270 2013-03-25 16:40:48 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: This is a completely unsubstantiated forum post, but, it seems to back up my guesstimate of "if you are [a miner] selling bitcoins via a FinCEN-compliant exchange like MtGox/Coinlab, you are probably OK"    https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=158138.0
3271 2013-03-25 16:40:48 HM has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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3275 2013-03-25 16:41:45 <Sydna> so uh, do any of you know if Blockchain.info pays bug bounties?
3276 2013-03-25 16:41:49 Descry has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3277 2013-03-25 16:42:12 <TD> jgarzik: at the same time they're claiming that anyone who does local trading needs to register as well? essentially they're trying to bar local currency trading.
3278 2013-03-25 16:42:21 Descry has joined
3279 2013-03-25 16:42:24 <jgarzik> Sydna: not AFAIK.  Are you sure it's a blockchain.info bug, and not a problem elsewhere?
3280 2013-03-25 16:42:42 <Sydna> dead certain
3281 2013-03-25 16:42:45 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: yeah, that makes sense
3282 2013-03-25 16:42:50 <gavinandresen> TD: yeah, that makes sense
3283 2013-03-25 16:43:06 <jgarzik> TD: They are trying to regulate all USD exchanging, anywhere, for any amount
3284 2013-03-25 16:43:21 <jgarzik> TD: Even tiny "I sold my mom a bitcoin" amounts sadly
3285 2013-03-25 16:43:36 <TD> yes, indeed. welcome to the world where everyone is a criminal .....
3286 2013-03-25 16:43:55 <gavinandresen> I still kinda like the "I am spartacus" civil disobedience approach… lets all register as money transmitters....
3287 2013-03-25 16:43:59 <jgarzik> TD: <shrug>  Just means you should operate within the bitcoin economy.  I do not begrudge the USG for regulating the USD.
3288 2013-03-25 16:44:11 joe_k has joined
3289 2013-03-25 16:44:28 <jgarzik> I hope this incentivizes people to offer services to miners for bitcoins.
3290 2013-03-25 16:44:44 parasciidic has quit (Quit: Quit:)
3291 2013-03-25 16:44:53 <gavinandresen> The "no limit to transaction size to be a money transmitter" is the really broken part of the law.
3292 2013-03-25 16:45:00 <TD> jgarzik: i am curious whether they really have the authority to say there are no limits. the original laws had a $10k threshold.
3293 2013-03-25 16:45:07 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: Fair enough, except that makes it trivial to point out "hey, you do not have a second person acting as compliance officer", and <bam> jail
3294 2013-03-25 16:45:08 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: someone mentioned registration is free
3295 2013-03-25 16:45:21 <TD> jgarzik: i don't know if more modern laws changed the thresholds or if that's some kind of guerilla action by them
3296 2013-03-25 16:45:24 <TD> BlueMatt: lolz
3297 2013-03-25 16:45:34 <TD> BlueMatt: not only is it not free, it costs millions of dollars. so forget it.
3298 2013-03-25 16:45:43 <BlueMatt> ahh...
3299 2013-03-25 16:45:46 <TD> being classed as a MT in the USA is equivalent to it being made illegal, more or less
3300 2013-03-25 16:45:47 <BlueMatt> yea, free sounded wrong
3301 2013-03-25 16:45:49 <jgarzik> TD: not quite true.  $10k threshold was a guideline...  structuring things to work around the $10k limit has always been illegal for many years.
3302 2013-03-25 16:45:50 <gavinandresen> it is free at the federal level.
3303 2013-03-25 16:45:52 Exocyst has joined
3304 2013-03-25 16:45:57 <gavinandresen> getting state licenses is the expensive part
3305 2013-03-25 16:46:12 tyn has joined
3306 2013-03-25 16:46:19 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: free, but you agree that you will hire a compliance officer That Is Not You
3307 2013-03-25 16:46:28 <TD> jgarzik: yes, i know. although iirc there's now a law being proposed to decriminalize structuring in the absence of any other crime
3308 2013-03-25 16:46:34 <Eliel> how big portion of mining power is using the code that prioritizes 0 fee transactions based on the fees in the transactions after them in the chain?
3309 2013-03-25 16:46:48 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: if not, you are not compliant with the law, even if you report every transaction religiously to FinCEN (snowing them in paperwork).
3310 2013-03-25 16:46:51 <TD> too many farmers were getting their money seized for just trying to cut down on paperwork
3311 2013-03-25 16:46:51 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: mmm, yeah, that does make it impossible for the "local bitcoin exchange for not more than a couple thosand bucks"
3312 2013-03-25 16:46:54 <Eliel> (transaction chain)
3313 2013-03-25 16:46:55 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3314 2013-03-25 16:47:15 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: the one option is a compliance officer service, for tiny people
3315 2013-03-25 16:47:24 ikbenwouter has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3316 2013-03-25 16:47:37 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: i.e. John Smith receives 1 BTC/month to act as compliance officer for 10,000 people
3317 2013-03-25 16:47:40 <TD> jgarzik: you also need a headquarters, iirc, and you have to display your license in the reception area, and all kinds of other fairly random requirements
3318 2013-03-25 16:47:57 <TD> it's really not designed with smallness in mind at all
3319 2013-03-25 16:48:53 <TD> that said, it's worth bearing in mind that even banks routinely ignore some aspects of AML as they are so ridiculous. i remember the UK FSA getting upset because banks weren't taking any notice of the PEP rules
3320 2013-03-25 16:49:01 <TD> and those are banks. with entire departments dedicated just to compliance.
3321 2013-03-25 16:49:08 <TD> i think the FSA huffed a bit but not much really happened
3322 2013-03-25 16:49:20 <kinlo> btw, is there anyone here who can add me to the trusted group on the wiki?  I need to change a page, but I don't have enough rights :(
3323 2013-03-25 16:49:26 <jgarzik> In general, the REALISTIC, LIKELY view is that FinCEN is not gonna come after little people doing little transactions.
3324 2013-03-25 16:49:32 <jgarzik> But that says nothing about the law.
3325 2013-03-25 16:49:32 <TD> kinlo: you have to pay a fee to edit the wiki now.
3326 2013-03-25 16:49:45 <gavinandresen> Well, there's a big loophole that little exchangers might slip through-- you have to be doing it "as a business"
3327 2013-03-25 16:49:56 <kinlo> oh?
3328 2013-03-25 16:50:02 <kinlo> why isn't that on the pages?
3329 2013-03-25 16:50:02 <gavinandresen> If it is just "exchanging these bitcoins as a favor to a friend...."
3330 2013-03-25 16:50:46 <kinlo> and I can understand that to combat spam... but on the other hand, you're punishing people who are trying to help
3331 2013-03-25 16:51:01 qbasicer has joined
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3335 2013-03-25 16:52:24 <TD> kinlo: yes, it's not a great solution. bitcoin passports / fidelity bonds are a better solution
3336 2013-03-25 16:52:29 <TD> kinlo: however nobody has coded them up
3337 2013-03-25 16:52:38 <jouke> "register here to be my friend" Or better "Friend me on facebook before doing business"
3338 2013-03-25 16:52:53 <kinlo> well, I can't even find a page where to pay... so nobody in the admin group here? :)
3339 2013-03-25 16:52:59 ralphtheninja has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3340 2013-03-25 16:53:01 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: like most of our modern legal system, if "they" want to prosecute you, "they" can almost certainly find a few laws that are a good enough fit to bring you to trial and make your life miserable
3341 2013-03-25 16:53:08 <TD> kinlo: i don't remember what i had to do …. sign out and then back in again, i think?
3342 2013-03-25 16:53:12 <TD> kinlo: then it told me what to do
3343 2013-03-25 16:53:37 <kinlo> I could just ask mrtux when he's around
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3346 2013-03-25 16:54:25 Ogig has joined
3347 2013-03-25 16:55:06 <gavinandresen> Pretty sure if you logout and then log back into the wiki it will tell you what to do.
3348 2013-03-25 16:56:41 normanrichards has joined
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3350 2013-03-25 16:57:58 <Ogig> if i createrawtransaction without spending all the inputs of a given address, just some, what would happen?
3351 2013-03-25 16:58:19 <sipa> Ogig: it becomes fee
3352 2013-03-25 16:58:22 <Cusipzzz> it goes as tx fees
3353 2013-03-25 16:58:28 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3354 2013-03-25 16:58:31 <sipa> the part not used as outputs
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3358 2013-03-25 16:59:06 <Ogig> ok, so if i createrawtransaction and while signing it offline somebody sends something else to one of those inputs?
3359 2013-03-25 16:59:35 <gmaxwell> Ogig: and?
3360 2013-03-25 16:59:40 <sipa> an input is a specific txid:output
3361 2013-03-25 16:59:45 <sipa> nobody can send to it
3362 2013-03-25 16:59:53 <sipa> as that will create a new transaction
3363 2013-03-25 17:00:53 kerum has quit (Quit: ---Smoke and Mirrors----)
3364 2013-03-25 17:01:18 <TD> Ogig: you are confused about the relationship between addresses and outputs
3365 2013-03-25 17:01:27 <TD> Ogig: createrawtransaction may not be the right tool to use, in your current place
3366 2013-03-25 17:01:52 qbasicer has joined
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3370 2013-03-25 17:04:43 <sipa> Ogig: i misread your question; if you use createrawtransaction, you only consume the inputs you explicitly chooise
3371 2013-03-25 17:04:46 <Ogig> let me reformulate. I have an address, it current balance is 2BTC, the sum of all inputs there. I create a transaction wasting all those inputs. The transaction has 0 change.
3372 2013-03-25 17:04:57 <sipa> Ogig: whether there are others assigned to the same address is irrelevant
3373 2013-03-25 17:05:04 Descry has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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3375 2013-03-25 17:05:12 <Ogig> ok
3376 2013-03-25 17:05:17 <sipa> Ogig: the network doesn't care about addresses, only about ouputs
3377 2013-03-25 17:05:43 <Ogig> so the balance if that given address will be less? i thought you need to consume all the balance allways and use a change address
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3379 2013-03-25 17:06:26 <sipa> no, the network doesn't care about addresses
3380 2013-03-25 17:06:28 <rdponticelli> Ogig: You consume all the output you use
3381 2013-03-25 17:06:31 <sipa> it has no concept of balances
3382 2013-03-25 17:06:51 <sipa> it only reasons in terms of outputs; and an output is always spent entirely
3383 2013-03-25 17:07:07 <Ogig> ok, so the rest of the output will be there unspent
3384 2013-03-25 17:07:10 <gmaxwell> And you only create a change address if you want to retrieve change from the transaction, if you want to send any excess to fees or there is no excess then there is no change.
3385 2013-03-25 17:07:21 tyn has joined
3386 2013-03-25 17:07:22 <gmaxwell> Ogig: you need top stop thinking of bitcoin as "accounts", that isn't how it works.
3387 2013-03-25 17:07:38 <sipa> Ogig: no, you always spend an enitre output
3388 2013-03-25 17:07:46 <gmaxwell> Ogig: there are just transaction outputs. They exist unspent until you spend them. You spend them completely.
3389 2013-03-25 17:08:05 <Ogig> i see it now.
3390 2013-03-25 17:08:25 <Ogig> thanks a lot guys.
3391 2013-03-25 17:08:45 <sipa> any part of the consumed inputs not covered by new outputs becomes fee
3392 2013-03-25 17:08:53 <sipa> but that can't change from under you
3393 2013-03-25 17:09:07 <gmaxwell> sipa: I just hit a double free with your patches. #17 0x0000000000496449 in ProcessMessages (pfrom=0x7fffb40008e0) at main.cpp:3822
3394 2013-03-25 17:09:29 <Ogig> right, so no chances of a transaction to "change" while i sign it since it only about the outputs im going to sign.
3395 2013-03-25 17:09:39 <Ogig> not that i see it it was a stupid question
3396 2013-03-25 17:09:48 tyn has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
3397 2013-03-25 17:09:49 <Ogig> now*
3398 2013-03-25 17:10:53 <gmaxwell> Ogig: if you can suggest some information published about the bitcoin system that contributed to your confusion that we could go change— we're all ears.
3399 2013-03-25 17:11:23 tyn has joined
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3408 2013-03-25 17:16:47 <Ogig> gmaxwell, I could not point to any confusing information. I was wondering about situations that could make me create a wrong transaction.
3409 2013-03-25 17:17:22 tyn has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
3410 2013-03-25 17:17:22 zz_qwertyoruiop is now known as qwertyoruiop
3411 2013-03-25 17:17:32 <sipa> but clearly something made you think that you always spend the entire balance of an address
3412 2013-03-25 17:17:58 <Ogig> yea, that was because the change concept. that's linked to the output
3413 2013-03-25 17:18:09 zoinky has joined
3414 2013-03-25 17:18:09 <Ogig> not the address, that was my confusion.
3415 2013-03-25 17:18:21 <sipa> right
3416 2013-03-25 17:18:37 <Ogig> but i point myself as guilty, a normal user shouldn't need to dive into outputs.
3417 2013-03-25 17:18:55 tyn has joined
3418 2013-03-25 17:19:06 <rdponticelli> Ogig: btw, address reuse isn't a good practice
3419 2013-03-25 17:19:36 <Ogig> rdponticelli, yea, i know, thanks still.
3420 2013-03-25 17:19:44 <rdponticelli> It would be better issuing a new address for every transction
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3429 2013-03-25 17:23:41 <sipa> gmaxwell: was there a misbehave detected shortly before?
3430 2013-03-25 17:24:14 <Saberu> gmaxwell how many bitcoins do you have? :)
3431 2013-03-25 17:24:25 john has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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3434 2013-03-25 17:25:23 <gmaxwell> sipa: Can't tell— it didn't get the last log entry out.
3435 2013-03-25 17:25:36 <gmaxwell> It's likely, since you mentioned that I've been triggering it intentionally.
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3439 2013-03-25 17:28:04 <Saberu> i was guessing you had at least 100,000 bitcoins
3440 2013-03-25 17:28:32 <sipa> Saberu: i heard he has over 100 million
3441 2013-03-25 17:28:33 <gmaxwell> lol
3442 2013-03-25 17:28:42 <gmaxwell> Actually I have 21 million.
3443 2013-03-25 17:28:49 <[7]> lol
3444 2013-03-25 17:28:51 XRPTrader2 has joined
3445 2013-03-25 17:29:08 <gmaxwell> Blockchain.info confirms it... someone else took a screenshot for me: http://people.xiph.org/~greg/21mbtc.png
3446 2013-03-25 17:29:31 <BlueMatt> Saberu: in most cultures, asking people directly how much money they have in the bank is incredibly rude
3447 2013-03-25 17:29:42 <[7]> what the...?
3448 2013-03-25 17:29:43 eataudio has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3449 2013-03-25 17:29:46 <sipa> s/in the bank//
3450 2013-03-25 17:30:15 <Saberu> it
3451 2013-03-25 17:30:21 <Saberu> bitcoins though, not the same
3452 2013-03-25 17:30:47 <sipa> Saberu: ok, how expensive is your house?
3453 2013-03-25 17:30:47 <k9quaint> BlueMatt: how much money do you have in the bank?
3454 2013-03-25 17:31:00 <sipa> (not about money either)
3455 2013-03-25 17:31:03 <BlueMatt> k9quaint: nearly 0...yay poor students!
3456 2013-03-25 17:31:04 parasciidic has joined
3457 2013-03-25 17:31:23 <[7]> k9quaint: how much bitcoins have you seen in a bank? :)
3458 2013-03-25 17:31:24 <BlueMatt> Saberu: in most cultures, asking people directly how much they have in non-money assets they is incredibly rude
3459 2013-03-25 17:31:25 <Saberu> not sure, I'd have to ask the landlord! LOL
3460 2013-03-25 17:31:30 <gmaxwell> [7]: it used to accept, display, and believe transactions with ~no validation. Not of signatures, not of values, it just had to be well formed.
3461 2013-03-25 17:32:08 <Saberu> BlueMatt bitcoins isnt money, it's got no intrinsic value it's just something people buy as a bet
3462 2013-03-25 17:32:13 <k9quaint> [7]: I said money, not virtual currency that is lightly regulated by the US treasury...<wink> <wink>
3463 2013-03-25 17:32:31 <k9quaint> money has no intrinsic value either
3464 2013-03-25 17:32:42 <BlueMatt> Saberu: it is a non-money asset though
3465 2013-03-25 17:32:55 * gmaxwell pushes this conversation towards #bitcoin
3466 2013-03-25 17:33:40 <Saberu> 157,000 is a pretty good bitcoin balance. i'll see if i can beat it with litecoins
3467 2013-03-25 17:33:51 * k9quaint feels a disturbance in the force, as if 21million bitcoins all told us to can it, and then were silent
3468 2013-03-25 17:34:07 OPrime has quit (Quit: OPrime)
3469 2013-03-25 17:34:38 <Saberu> gmaxwell coded all the bitcoins to transfer their way to his wallet on his birthday
3470 2013-03-25 17:35:27 eataudio has joined
3471 2013-03-25 17:35:36 <sipa> Saberu: take it elsewhere
3472 2013-03-25 17:35:41 wrabbit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3473 2013-03-25 17:36:00 wrabbit has joined
3474 2013-03-25 17:36:37 * BlueMatt finds it interesting that many of the jokes which used to begin with "satoshi is god because..." now begin with "gmaxwell is god because..."
3475 2013-03-25 17:36:56 <k9quaint> gmaxwell is easier to spell
3476 2013-03-25 17:37:12 <nanotube> yes, also easier than gavinandrewhatisname ;)
3477 2013-03-25 17:37:20 <Saberu> satoshi isnt here, but he is probably as much of a god as gmaxwell
3478 2013-03-25 17:37:32 <sipa> blasphemy!
3479 2013-03-25 17:37:42 <gmaxwell> 0_o
3480 2013-03-25 17:37:57 <gmaxwell> see. Not a god.
3481 2013-03-25 17:38:05 <BlueMatt> wait...thats all it takes?
3482 2013-03-25 17:38:09 Phraust has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3483 2013-03-25 17:38:38 Phraust has joined
3484 2013-03-25 17:38:57 <rdponticelli> Saberu: Who says satoshi isn't here?
3485 2013-03-25 17:39:24 <Saberu> then he's hiding :(
3486 2013-03-25 17:39:40 <Saberu> damnit, he really is hiding. i just whois'd him
3487 2013-03-25 17:40:00 <sivu> god doesnt need to hide because nobody expects to see god
3488 2013-03-25 17:41:20 <Saberu> how easy was it to mine bitcoins when it first came out? maybe one a minute on a cpu
3489 2013-03-25 17:41:32 <Diablo-D3> they dont come in ones
3490 2013-03-25 17:41:34 root2_ has joined
3491 2013-03-25 17:41:43 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3492 2013-03-25 17:41:45 <gmaxwell> Saberu: this conversation belongs in #bitcoin. I'll respond to you in there if you ask then.
3493 2013-03-25 17:41:52 <Diablo-D3> I mined 650 over a few months using a single c2d e8500 that wasnt on 24/7
3494 2013-03-25 17:41:53 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
3495 2013-03-25 17:42:00 <Diablo-D3> and what gmaxwell said
3496 2013-03-25 17:42:09 <Saberu> nice
3497 2013-03-25 17:44:04 Sealy has joined
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3512 2013-03-25 17:55:44 <B0g4r7> Do I'm running bitcoin-qt 0.8.0 on 2 different OS X machines, and several times now when starting bitcoin-qt (after a power failure), I get a message that the block index is corrupt and I need to rebuild it, which takes freaking hours and taxes the CPU and disk...
3513 2013-03-25 17:55:50 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
3514 2013-03-25 17:55:55 <B0g4r7> I'm trying 0.8.1 now, hoping it will help.
3515 2013-03-25 17:56:20 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (Changing host)
3516 2013-03-25 17:56:20 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
3517 2013-03-25 17:56:21 <CodeShark> how often do you have power failures? lol
3518 2013-03-25 17:56:27 <gmaxwell> B0g4r7: it won't change anything.
3519 2013-03-25 17:56:35 jevin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3520 2013-03-25 17:56:36 <B0g4r7> :/
3521 2013-03-25 17:56:43 <gmaxwell> B0g4r7: you need to actually report these issues, not just keep doing the same thing and getting angry about it.
3522 2013-03-25 17:56:56 <B0g4r7> Too often now with 5 inches of sticky snow and counting.
3523 2013-03-25 17:57:30 <B0g4r7> Hm, yea I guess.
3524 2013-03-25 17:57:30 jevin has joined
3525 2013-03-25 17:57:34 <BTC_Bear> B0g4r7: did you get a memory address in hex when it failed? ie. 0x##########
3526 2013-03-25 17:57:38 <midnightmagic> Is there a good offline address generator?
3527 2013-03-25 17:57:40 <gmaxwell> B0g4r7: Any idea what filesystem you're using? (I know ZFS was an option on some osx versions), also what OSX version?  And is the reindex really taking several hours? What cpu?
3528 2013-03-25 17:57:43 <midnightmagic> aside from vanitygen. :)
3529 2013-03-25 17:57:51 <B0g4r7> HFS+ Journaled.
3530 2013-03-25 17:58:00 <B0g4r7> The OS X default.
3531 2013-03-25 17:58:00 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: bitcoind. Vanitygen is _not_ a good offline address generator.
3532 2013-03-25 17:58:12 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Well, that's why I didn't want to use it.
3533 2013-03-25 17:58:22 <B0g4r7> "Mac OS Extended (Journaled)" being the official name.
3534 2013-03-25 17:58:52 dvide has quit ()
3535 2013-03-25 17:58:54 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: thanks.
3536 2013-03-25 17:59:10 viperhr has joined
3537 2013-03-25 17:59:19 <CodeShark> any good random number generator that can generate 256-bit numbers is a good start, midnightmagic
3538 2013-03-25 17:59:34 <area> What's the issue with vanitygen, out of interest?
3539 2013-03-25 17:59:36 <B0g4r7> One box is running Slow Leopard (10.6), and the other runs Lion (10.7).  They're a q6600 and an i7-2600k.  Most of the time rebuilding it only uses one CPU core.
3540 2013-03-25 17:59:41 <area> bad RNGing?
3541 2013-03-25 17:59:47 <B0g4r7> It hits the disks a lot too.  Both are on SSDs.
3542 2013-03-25 17:59:56 <B0g4r7> er...Snow Leopard.  :)
3543 2013-03-25 18:00:05 nomailing has left ()
3544 2013-03-25 18:00:09 <midnightmagic> CodeShark: I have some specialized hardware attached to what I believe is a strong mixer in my OS.
3545 2013-03-25 18:00:18 <CodeShark> midnightmagic: you can even use commandline openssl to generate bitcoin addresses (the only thing missing is the base58 stuff)
3546 2013-03-25 18:00:47 jevin_ has joined
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3549 2013-03-25 18:04:29 <Diablo-D3> bwhahahah oh man
3550 2013-03-25 18:04:38 <Diablo-D3> someone just tried to convince me C++ is a good language
3551 2013-03-25 18:05:00 <k9quaint> depends on what you are writing
3552 2013-03-25 18:05:03 * CodeShark *troll*
3553 2013-03-25 18:05:18 * gmaxwell pushes the conversation towards #languagewars
3554 2013-03-25 18:05:19 jevin_ is now known as jevin
3555 2013-03-25 18:05:33 <Diablo-D3> k9quaint: anything outside of a hello world
3556 2013-03-25 18:05:33 <k9quaint> its great for writing examples of code implemented in C++ :P
3557 2013-03-25 18:05:59 <sipa> you know what is a great text editor?
3558 2013-03-25 18:06:01 <sipa> edlin!
3559 2013-03-25 18:06:01 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: you know what I find weird? TD hasn't tried to convert people to go
3560 2013-03-25 18:06:16 <sipa> TD is no fan of Go, afaik
3561 2013-03-25 18:06:18 <k9quaint> I just rewrote all our JVM code in Go
3562 2013-03-25 18:06:19 pale_fire_ has joined
3563 2013-03-25 18:06:22 <gmaxwell> sipa: nonsense, pico is the true ultimate editor.
3564 2013-03-25 18:06:38 <Diablo-D3> sipa: seriously? they might fire him :<
3565 2013-03-25 18:06:47 <sipa> Diablo-D3: i really doubt that :D
3566 2013-03-25 18:06:53 <k9quaint> edlin was amazing in its time
3567 2013-03-25 18:06:57 <Diablo-D3> dude, the google corporate culture is pretty toxic
3568 2013-03-25 18:07:01 <TD> hm, genjix got mad that i asked him to stop identifying as a bitcoin developer
3569 2013-03-25 18:07:04 <midnightmagic> down with pico! microemacs on amiga, or joe on unix!
3570 2013-03-25 18:07:11 <Diablo-D3> if it gets any worse, Im going to start calling them apple by mistake
3571 2013-03-25 18:07:29 <sipa> TD: is he still active in bitcoin at all?
3572 2013-03-25 18:07:29 pale_fire has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3573 2013-03-25 18:07:30 pale_fire_ is now known as pale_fire
3574 2013-03-25 18:07:41 * Diablo-D3 gets away with calling himself a bitcoin dev
3575 2013-03-25 18:07:57 <k9quaint> I developed bitcoin once
3576 2013-03-25 18:08:11 ripshy has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3577 2013-03-25 18:08:13 <k9quaint> I turned off the alert code so gavin could not look into my soul
3578 2013-03-25 18:08:21 <Diablo-D3> I may not have code in the client, but Ive written code that makes the bitworld turn
3579 2013-03-25 18:08:33 <Diablo-D3> k9quaint: that implies you have one
3580 2013-03-25 18:08:46 <TD> sipa: afaik he hasn't written any code, even for libbitcoin, in years
3581 2013-03-25 18:08:46 <k9quaint> Diablo-D3: I didn't want him to go blind, I have lots of BTC
3582 2013-03-25 18:09:10 <TD> but i can't tell for sure. apparently after the bitcoinica fiasco he vanished and now lives in an abandoned office building with the editor of bitcoin magazine
3583 2013-03-25 18:09:57 <TD> anyway, i just pointed out that he could call himself an activist, or supporter, or conference organiser or many other things
3584 2013-03-25 18:09:58 <Diablo-D3> TD: what.
3585 2013-03-25 18:10:39 SchmalzTech has quit ()
3586 2013-03-25 18:11:00 root2_ is now known as root2
3587 2013-03-25 18:11:07 <TD> what what?
3588 2013-03-25 18:11:40 <Diablo-D3> what you just said about genjix
3589 2013-03-25 18:11:42 <Diablo-D3> are you serious?
3590 2013-03-25 18:12:29 <TD> http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/video/2013/mar/22/bitcoin-currency-video
3591 2013-03-25 18:12:42 <TD> "Bitcoin is an unregulated, uncontrolled online currency – worth more than £500m, it's the world's fastest growing. It can be used to buy drugs, move money across the world, or get rich quick. The people behind Bitcoin speak to the Guardian's James Ball at their home in a squat in central London"
3592 2013-03-25 18:13:11 <TD> "this is amir taaki, one of the people behind bitcoin, the worlds fastest growing currency. he lives in a deserted office building in central london"
3593 2013-03-25 18:13:12 <sipa> "the people behind Bitcoin" ?
3594 2013-03-25 18:13:23 <TD> good, innit
3595 2013-03-25 18:13:36 <petertodd> TD: Bitcoin attracts the weirdest people, unfortunately. :(
3596 2013-03-25 18:13:43 <TD> amir isn't weird
3597 2013-03-25 18:13:56 <TD> i quite like him. but he's not a great representative for "all bitcoin developers"
3598 2013-03-25 18:14:19 <B0g4r7> I refuse to even look at uk news anymore.
3599 2013-03-25 18:14:38 <HM> oO
3600 2013-03-25 18:14:41 <petertodd> TD: I'll disagree with you on the former, but I totally agree with you on the latter.
3601 2013-03-25 18:14:45 <TD> amir says, "i feel responsibility that i have this skill that not many people have, i'd feel bad working at a corporation because it'd just go into a black hole"
3602 2013-03-25 18:14:49 tyn has joined
3603 2013-03-25 18:14:54 <k9quaint> I stopped reading at "unregulated", somebody sum up for me ;)
3604 2013-03-25 18:15:02 <HM> he lives in an office building?
3605 2013-03-25 18:15:15 <Diablo-D3> brb xchat is wonky
3606 2013-03-25 18:15:18 Diablo-D3 has left ()
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3608 2013-03-25 18:15:20 Diablo-D3 has joined
3609 2013-03-25 18:15:41 <TD> HM: apparently
3610 2013-03-25 18:15:54 <TD> along with the editor of bitcoin magazine
3611 2013-03-25 18:16:05 <HM> it's not a bad video
3612 2013-03-25 18:16:15 <Diablo-D3> I wish people would quit calling bitcoin unregulated
3613 2013-03-25 18:16:22 <TD> no, it's not all that bad
3614 2013-03-25 18:16:27 <HM> props to guardian for going there and talking to them
3615 2013-03-25 18:16:39 <TD> i especially lolled at the sponsored feature at the bottom. "Need to transfer money overseas? Find out how others have saved money and got the best deal. Plus, win a £25 M&S voucher"
3616 2013-03-25 18:16:43 <Diablo-D3> thats a blatant lie and it may be against the law depending on how federal prosecutors decide to handle it
3617 2013-03-25 18:16:49 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: I gotta disagree with you there. Bitcoin itself is pretty unregulated in the sense that most people use that word.
3618 2013-03-25 18:16:56 <HM> Duristictions and people are regulated, bitcoin is not
3619 2013-03-25 18:16:58 <CodeShark> I agree, though, that "unregulated, uncontrolled" are not the right adjectives. the right adjective is "decentralized"
3620 2013-03-25 18:17:10 <Diablo-D3> its highly regulated
3621 2013-03-25 18:17:11 <Luke-Jr> err, they're trying to say "bitcoin is made by homeless people trying to get rich"? :/
3622 2013-03-25 18:17:14 <Diablo-D3> both by law and by math
3623 2013-03-25 18:17:27 <TD> Luke-Jr: that would be a reasonable conclusion to draw given the video, yes ….
3624 2013-03-25 18:17:30 <k9quaint> what Diablo-D3 said, only in a different font
3625 2013-03-25 18:17:32 <CodeShark> first and foremost, bitcoin was designed to be decentralized
3626 2013-03-25 18:17:33 <B0g4r7> They're doing what they always do.
3627 2013-03-25 18:17:46 <TD> Luke-Jr: although at the end, mihai does say "this is not a get rich quick scheme. it could be as big as the internet!"
3628 2013-03-25 18:17:54 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: Better to skip the wording issue and call it decentralized first I think. The nuances of to what degree it is regulated can be discussed in detail rather than turning it into a soundbite.
3629 2013-03-25 18:18:10 <HM> he asked calls the blockchain a "distributed ledger"
3630 2013-03-25 18:18:13 <TD> well, almost certainly that came from amir, he's very big on the whole "fight the man" politics
3631 2013-03-25 18:18:14 <B0g4r7> That's pretty big.  I hear it's over 9,000 now.
3632 2013-03-25 18:18:20 <k9quaint> the electrical grid is decentralized and regulated
3633 2013-03-25 18:18:31 <k9quaint> the two terms are orthogonal imo
3634 2013-03-25 18:18:47 <HM> k9quaint: not really, the grid in the UK can be controlled nationwide from a central office
3635 2013-03-25 18:18:56 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: yes, but htis is why no one from the community should talk to the media
3636 2013-03-25 18:19:00 <Diablo-D3> the media is controlled by the banks
3637 2013-03-25 18:19:05 <gmaxwell> I think my IRC client is broken. It's showing #bitcoin-dev, but I see screens of non-techical non-infrastructure political talk.
3638 2013-03-25 18:19:08 <Diablo-D3> the media's sole job is to make enemies of the rich look bad
3639 2013-03-25 18:19:09 <k9quaint> HM: but all the power does not flow from there
3640 2013-03-25 18:19:16 <CodeShark> lol gmaxwell
3641 2013-03-25 18:19:18 <B0g4r7> They're talking their book.
3642 2013-03-25 18:19:28 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: Just put Diablo-D3 on /ignore
3643 2013-03-25 18:19:29 <TD> hah
3644 2013-03-25 18:19:35 <TD> my fault
3645 2013-03-25 18:19:35 <HM> sure, but it's still centrally controlled. anyway this is tangential. similies all suck
3646 2013-03-25 18:19:37 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: this is infrastructure talk!
3647 2013-03-25 18:19:44 <Diablo-D3> for bitcoin to thrive we need to ignore the old infrastructure and do it right.
3648 2013-03-25 18:19:55 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: hate to tell you, but bitcoin has become a social and political movement
3649 2013-03-25 18:20:06 <HM> now is a good time to say to people "look, what's happening to your money in cyprus cannot happen with Bitcoin"
3650 2013-03-25 18:20:20 <HM> nobody can take your money, that's the important aspect
3651 2013-03-25 18:20:22 <k9quaint> jgarzik:  how can an omniscient god like gmaxwell ignore anything?
3652 2013-03-25 18:20:27 <Diablo-D3> k9quaint: LOL
3653 2013-03-25 18:20:53 darkskiez has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3654 2013-03-25 18:21:15 <gmaxwell> "Can God make a troll thats so obnoxious that even God can't ignore him?"
3655 2013-03-25 18:21:15 <HM> you can stick it to the man while still being a good citizen and paying taxes
3656 2013-03-25 18:21:25 <bakingbread> k9quaint: he probably was meditating
3657 2013-03-25 18:21:33 darkskiez has joined
3658 2013-03-25 18:21:34 n5 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3659 2013-03-25 18:21:44 <k9quaint> can god not know something and still be omniscient?
3660 2013-03-25 18:21:54 <TD> seems my irc client broke at the same time. it says it's on #bitcoin-dev but all i see is meta-trolling
3661 2013-03-25 18:21:57 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: yes
3662 2013-03-25 18:22:01 <sipa> k9quaint: ... and he vanished into a puff of logic
3663 2013-03-25 18:22:01 <TD> guess freenode is hosed
3664 2013-03-25 18:22:29 <k9quaint> sipa: now to encode that logic into an FPGA and wire it to a remote control
3665 2013-03-25 18:22:51 <petertodd> Alright, enough politics, I wanna talk about my new fidelity bonded distributed hash tables project.
3666 2013-03-25 18:23:08 * petertodd ducks
3667 2013-03-25 18:23:26 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
3668 2013-03-25 18:23:56 FredEE has joined
3669 2013-03-25 18:24:12 brson has joined
3670 2013-03-25 18:25:00 * BlueMatt notes that the v2 block transition was a very successful example of a "soft-hardfork"
3671 2013-03-25 18:25:16 <sipa> it was a pure softfork
3672 2013-03-25 18:25:29 <Diablo-D3> did we leave anyone behind?
3673 2013-03-25 18:25:39 <k9quaint> I feel left out
3674 2013-03-25 18:26:06 <petertodd> TD: Oh, actually, serious bit of discussion: for your assurance contracts, have you considered making them pay to an empty scriptPubKey? That way you don't need the hard fork, at the IMO minor cost of one extra transaction in the lucky block.
3675 2013-03-25 18:26:55 <TD> ah, interesting idea. by empty you mean, anyone can spend the output so the miner grabs it and spends it all to fees?
3676 2013-03-25 18:27:17 <petertodd> TD: Exactly. Or just spends it to an address they control directly.
3677 2013-03-25 18:27:45 <TD> i'm not sure how you'd stop an eavesdropped in the assurance contract p2p network from stealing the money once the contract completes.
3678 2013-03-25 18:27:47 FredEE_ has joined
3679 2013-03-25 18:28:01 ThomasV has joined
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3681 2013-03-25 18:28:22 FredEE_ is now known as FredEE
3682 2013-03-25 18:28:37 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: BTC Warp I think
3683 2013-03-25 18:28:38 <petertodd> TD: Well, the funds are supposed to go to any miner right? And the tx is nLockTime'd, so it'd be identical to any high-fee tx.
3684 2013-03-25 18:29:04 <petertodd> TD: I mean, it's miners who decide what tx's go in a block, so to steal the reward, you have to mine two blocks and orphan the first lucky miner's block.
3685 2013-03-25 18:29:08 <sipa> TD: rely on the greediness of miners to not mine a transaction that spends that send-to-any output?
3686 2013-03-25 18:30:33 <TD> petertodd: ah, so rely on miners to know the tx is special and then not allow anyone else to spend it. i suppose, could be
3687 2013-03-25 18:31:14 <TD> though if we assume there's a hard fork anyway, then i still prefer allowing unspendable value to be claimed as fees. it does mean you can't destroy money, at least with the standard OP_RETURN script, but i'm not sure that's such a bad thing
3688 2013-03-25 18:31:23 <TD> you could still spend to a pubkey of all zeros or something instead
3689 2013-03-25 18:31:23 <petertodd> TD: Yup. If it becomes a thing there will be plenty of incentive to write the few lines of code to do that - same with publish-commit fidelity bonds.
3690 2013-03-25 18:31:26 moleccc has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3691 2013-03-25 18:31:54 <Diablo-D3> how big is the search space of private keys? 160 bit?
3692 2013-03-25 18:31:58 <sipa> yes
3693 2013-03-25 18:32:00 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: at the very least, it should be a redefinition of an OP_NOPn
3694 2013-03-25 18:32:00 <sipa> no
3695 2013-03-25 18:32:06 <sipa> Diablo-D3: private keys: 256 bit
3696 2013-03-25 18:32:21 <sipa> but addresses, which is what matters for spending, are 160 bit
3697 2013-03-25 18:32:23 <petertodd> TD: Yeah, when a hard fork is appropriate we can refine the mechanism, but if we change IsStandard() we can do this now.
3698 2013-03-25 18:32:52 <gmaxwell> TD: why not just disallow non-zero unspendable outputs (and zero spendable ones). Thats a soft forking change.
3699 2013-03-25 18:32:53 <Diablo-D3> sipa: yeah, but how would I approach this? do I need the exact 256 bit value, or is the 160 bit value fine?
3700 2013-03-25 18:32:53 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: IsStandard is not a network rule
3701 2013-03-25 18:33:18 <petertodd> TD: I prefer the specific scriptPubKey because it makes it clear what's happening, and lets you special case it if you need to for other reasons. (anti-address reuse, or min-fee requirements for instance)
3702 2013-03-25 18:33:31 <sipa> Diablo-D3: you need _some_ private key for which the hash of the public key matches the address
3703 2013-03-25 18:33:36 Billdr is now known as billdr-
3704 2013-03-25 18:33:49 billdr- is now known as Billdr
3705 2013-03-25 18:33:57 <sipa> Diablo-D3: so you need a 160-bit "preimage" of EC multiply + SHA256 + RIPEMD160
3706 2013-03-25 18:34:02 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Right, I mean you can always publish tx's on bitcointalk, but changing IsStandard makes the whole process simple and easy for everyone.
3707 2013-03-25 18:34:25 <sipa> petertodd: Luke-Jr means he doesn't use IsStandard
3708 2013-03-25 18:34:32 <Diablo-D3> sipa: well, I was thinking, to improve network security, I should write a private key miner
3709 2013-03-25 18:34:39 <petertodd> sipa: I know
3710 2013-03-25 18:34:42 <sipa> Diablo-D3: why?
3711 2013-03-25 18:35:03 <Diablo-D3> because maybe I'll get lucky and mine a key that has a lot of bitcoins in it :<
3712 2013-03-25 18:35:13 <sipa> Diablo-D3: ok, carry on
3713 2013-03-25 18:35:26 <Diablo-D3> the chances of that are probably pretty low
3714 2013-03-25 18:35:28 <sipa> Diablo-D3: don't expect anything soon though :D
3715 2013-03-25 18:35:35 <CodeShark> and that improves network security how?
3716 2013-03-25 18:35:44 <Diablo-D3> CodeShark: thatsthejoke.jpg
3717 2013-03-25 18:35:54 Ashaman has joined
3718 2013-03-25 18:35:56 <CodeShark> knee slapper
3719 2013-03-25 18:36:05 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I think we should let people spend coins to unspendable outputs if they want to. It's their choice.
3720 2013-03-25 18:36:15 BlackPrapor has joined
3721 2013-03-25 18:36:21 <sipa> Diablo-D3: you realize that if the entire bitcoin hashpower right now were converted into address mining code right now, it'd need several times the age of the universe before there's a reasonable chance of hitting an address with coins associated with it?
3722 2013-03-25 18:36:40 <sipa> s/several times/several billion times/
3723 2013-03-25 18:36:41 <CodeShark> sipa: there could be really horrid RNGs out there
3724 2013-03-25 18:36:53 <Diablo-D3> sipa: damn.
3725 2013-03-25 18:36:54 <CodeShark> or people who used simple hashes of easy-to-guess passphrases
3726 2013-03-25 18:36:55 <gmaxwell> petertodd: it can't be prevented in any case, but that doesn't mean that the system should facilitate it.
3727 2013-03-25 18:36:58 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: there are. that doesn't count
3728 2013-03-25 18:37:00 <[Tycho]> (if random seed generators aren't flawed)
3729 2013-03-25 18:37:20 <gmaxwell> petertodd: As a matter of public interest we would strongly prefer people give up coins to fees if they want to destroy coin.
3730 2013-03-25 18:37:26 <gmaxwell> petertodd: since mining is a public good.
3731 2013-03-25 18:37:39 <Diablo-D3> sipa: so wait for quantum computers of sufficient size instead?
3732 2013-03-25 18:38:01 <Luke-Jr> Diablo-D3: quantum computers don't make it much easier, unless address reuse
3733 2013-03-25 18:38:04 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Well, I don't have strong feelings about it, so I'm happy to go your way. There is something to be said for how self-interested miners shouldn't mine such tx's to encourage spending to fees.
3734 2013-03-25 18:38:51 <gmaxwell> petertodd: Yea, and generally I prefer to align IsStandard (and protocol rules) with self-interest in any case. Reduces the varitablity between the best and worst case outcomes from actions.
3735 2013-03-25 18:39:04 <mria> Habla alguien español?
3736 2013-03-25 18:39:09 <CodeShark> si
3737 2013-03-25 18:39:15 <mria> Hola
3738 2013-03-25 18:39:19 <mria> buenas tardes
3739 2013-03-25 18:39:34 <CodeShark> pero en este canal se habla en ingles
3740 2013-03-25 18:40:21 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yeah. Well in any case, then how about IsStandard() OP_RETURN, and IsStandard() totally empty scriptPubKey; maybe the latter should be OP_TRUE, to prevent mistakes.
3741 2013-03-25 18:40:56 <[Tycho]> "elf-interested miners shouldn't mine such tx's" - which TXes ?
3742 2013-03-25 18:41:06 <gmaxwell> Es posible que desee probar #bitcoin-es
3743 2013-03-25 18:41:09 <Luke-Jr> [Tycho]: ones that consume coins and are unspendable
3744 2013-03-25 18:41:11 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I'm also sympathetic to the idea of OP_RETURN <0-32 bytes>, simply because you can already do that in an unprunable way.
3745 2013-03-25 18:41:15 <Luke-Jr> [Tycho]: so, send-to-blackhole
3746 2013-03-25 18:41:22 gdoteof has joined
3747 2013-03-25 18:41:34 <[Tycho]> You can't detect that reliably.
3748 2013-03-25 18:41:37 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: err, you mean prunable?
3749 2013-03-25 18:41:43 <[Tycho]> And someone will still mine those TXes.
3750 2013-03-25 18:41:51 <gdoteof> what does UTXO stand for / mean?  is it 'unspendable transaction output' ?
3751 2013-03-25 18:41:57 <sipa> gdoteof: indeed
3752 2013-03-25 18:42:01 <Luke-Jr> [Tycho]: not necessarily
3753 2013-03-25 18:42:02 <sipa> gdoteof: eh, unspent
3754 2013-03-25 18:42:06 <sipa> gdoteof: not unspendable
3755 2013-03-25 18:42:14 <gdoteof> oh okay
3756 2013-03-25 18:42:15 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I am open to being convinced about that for sure. Esp allowing one per transaction.
3757 2013-03-25 18:42:37 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: No, I mean that <digest> OP_CHECKSIG and OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <digest> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG are both possible, and neither can be pruned even if they can't be spent
3758 2013-03-25 18:42:37 <gdoteof> so its the same thing as when people talk about "change"
3759 2013-03-25 18:42:40 Sanky_ is now known as Sanky
3760 2013-03-25 18:42:44 <sipa> gdoteof: no
3761 2013-03-25 18:43:02 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: ah, I get it
3762 2013-03-25 18:43:05 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yeah, and OP_RETURN <data> can also do jgarzik's SMALLDATA, but with the data out of the UTXO set. (as he himself pointed out to me)
3763 2013-03-25 18:43:07 <sipa> gdoteof: change is the transaction output that goes back to the sender
3764 2013-03-25 18:43:07 Hasimir- has joined
3765 2013-03-25 18:43:16 <Luke-Jr> gdoteof: no, it includes all currently-outstanding coins
3766 2013-03-25 18:43:19 <sipa> gdoteof: UTXOs are any outputs that haven't been spent
3767 2013-03-25 18:43:46 <Luke-Jr> gdoteof: when you make a transaction, you remove coins from the UTXO (inputs), and add new ones (outputs)
3768 2013-03-25 18:43:58 Hasimir is now known as Guest10772
3769 2013-03-25 18:44:08 Hasimir- has quit (Changing host)
3770 2013-03-25 18:44:08 Hasimir- has joined
3771 2013-03-25 18:44:13 <gdoteof> sipa: Luke-Jr :  oh okay.  then the outputs becomoe new UTXOs?
3772 2013-03-25 18:44:21 <sipa> indeed
3773 2013-03-25 18:44:21 Hasimir- is now known as Hasimir
3774 2013-03-25 18:44:25 <Luke-Jr> right
3775 2013-03-25 18:44:35 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Is eligius still accepting non-std tx's?
3776 2013-03-25 18:44:35 <gdoteof> okay.  glad i asked i was definitely guessing wrong, thanks
3777 2013-03-25 18:44:43 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: yes
3778 2013-03-25 18:44:50 <gmaxwell> petertodd: So IsStandard would permit up to one OP_RETURN [0-32 byte push] per transaction, even if the value were zero?
3779 2013-03-25 18:45:19 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: especially if the value is zero!
3780 2013-03-25 18:45:29 ItsDom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3781 2013-03-25 18:45:33 <gmaxwell> well zero value should be otherwise non-standard.
3782 2013-03-25 18:45:39 Guest10772 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3783 2013-03-25 18:45:48 <gmaxwell> (and in my current opinion, prohibited by the protocol)
3784 2013-03-25 18:46:02 parasciidic has joined
3785 2013-03-25 18:46:09 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yes. Have a IsPrunable() that tests for OP_RETURN, zero-value out, and allow that specifically as an exception tot he usual no-zero-outs rule.
3786 2013-03-25 18:46:36 <sipa> petertodd: IsPrunable() shouldn't test for value
3787 2013-03-25 18:46:41 <sipa> ?
3788 2013-03-25 18:46:53 <gmaxwell> Yea, you don't want IsPrunable to return false for postive value.
3789 2013-03-25 18:47:14 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I'd also be inclined to allow any number of OP_RETURN <data>'s in a tx, again simply because if someone wants to do that, they'll just do it in a network harming UTXO bloating way.
3790 2013-03-25 18:47:22 <petertodd> sipa: Good point
3791 2013-03-25 18:48:07 Lolcust has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3792 2013-03-25 18:48:15 <gmaxwell> petertodd: then you might as well allow the push to be unbounded in size.
3793 2013-03-25 18:48:21 <[Tycho]> What those
3794 2013-03-25 18:48:22 <[Tycho]> OP_RETURN [0-32 byte push]
3795 2013-03-25 18:48:27 <[Tycho]> will be used for ?
3796 2013-03-25 18:48:39 <sipa> nothing, they are pruned immediatelyt
3797 2013-03-25 18:48:44 <Luke-Jr> [Tycho]: spamming the blockchain without spamming the UTXO set
3798 2013-03-25 18:48:45 <Luke-Jr> :P
3799 2013-03-25 18:49:03 <gmaxwell> We cannot prevent the spam, we can only shape it into less harmful forms.
3800 2013-03-25 18:49:06 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Well, the most data you can stuff right now is with OP_CHECKMULTISIG abuse, so that's 3x 64-byte uncompressed keys. (assuming sipa's non-canonical sigs go through)
3801 2013-03-25 18:49:33 <[Tycho]> Some people may want to put some data in the blockchain forever. (Of course I know that this is unwanted)
3802 2013-03-25 18:49:42 <petertodd> So OP_RETURN <0-192 bytes>
3803 2013-03-25 18:49:47 <sipa> [Tycho]: so that would be a way
3804 2013-03-25 18:49:55 <petertodd> That'll also cover the publish part of publish-commit fidelity bonds.
3805 2013-03-25 18:50:01 <gmaxwell> petertodd: to be frank though, one thing I've learned from the community lately is that if the system permits something some people believe they have a right to do it no matter what harm it causes. There may be value in limiting the number of data dump outputs just for that purpose.
3806 2013-03-25 18:50:39 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yes, but equally because the community is like that, we should accept we have to practice harm reduction.
3807 2013-03-25 18:51:09 metabyte has joined
3808 2013-03-25 18:51:16 <sipa> but if 32 bytes is possible and apparently encouraged by the system, people will try hard to fit things into those 32 bytes
3809 2013-03-25 18:51:25 <[Tycho]> But those non-standard TXes will be still allowed if someone wants to mine them ?
3810 2013-03-25 18:51:36 <Luke-Jr> [Tycho]: non-standard txs are always allowed
3811 2013-03-25 18:51:40 <sipa> they would be made standard
3812 2013-03-25 18:51:41 <Luke-Jr> [Tycho]: the point is making these standard
3813 2013-03-25 18:51:49 <[Tycho]> What for ?
3814 2013-03-25 18:52:04 <amiller> "priority = sum(input_value_in_base_units * input_age)/size_in_bytes" from the wiki, is this still the current priority
3815 2013-03-25 18:52:13 <sipa> amiller: indeed
3816 2013-03-25 18:52:14 <jgarzik> [Tycho]: non-standard TXs are (a) permitted, but (b) not relayed by most clients.  It is always legal for a miner to choose to mine a non-standard TX.
3817 2013-03-25 18:52:19 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: Because right now people wanting to store data make outputs paying to fake addresses that encode their data. And those outputs bloat the database forever because they are unspendable.
3818 2013-03-25 18:52:23 <Luke-Jr> [Tycho]: contracts and smart property, for example
3819 2013-03-25 18:52:25 <jgarzik> [Tycho]: The question then becomes... how to get the non-standard TX to a miner.
3820 2013-03-25 18:52:47 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: but will those TXes be pruned or not ?
3821 2013-03-25 18:53:07 <[Tycho]> jgarzik: relaying directly to non-std-miners like eligius.
3822 2013-03-25 18:53:09 jdnavarro has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3823 2013-03-25 18:53:11 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: ones sent to fake addresses cannot be. The network can't tell they are unspendable.
3824 2013-03-25 18:53:11 <sipa> [Tycho]: those outputs would not enter the UTXO set, as they are guaranteed to be unspendable
3825 2013-03-25 18:53:16 <jgarzik> [Tycho]: yes
3826 2013-03-25 18:53:23 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: the outputs with OP_RETURN would be instantly pruned.
3827 2013-03-25 18:53:31 <gmaxwell> Because they are obviously unspendable.
3828 2013-03-25 18:53:50 <[Tycho]> gmaxwell: yes, but if they will be instantly pruned, how people will store that data forever in the blockchain ?
3829 2013-03-25 18:54:05 <sipa> they would end up in the blockchain obviously
3830 2013-03-25 18:54:10 <gmaxwell> petertodd: Right, but I think I would prefer people to be limited to 32 bytes per transaction. If they want more than that— well, they can make multiple transactions with the associated overheads.
3831 2013-03-25 18:54:16 <sipa> but not in the UTXO set
3832 2013-03-25 18:54:17 <gmaxwell> [Tycho]: they are in the chain, not in the utxo set.
3833 2013-03-25 18:54:35 <gmaxwell> (You can't take them out of the chain— thats not what pruning does.)
3834 2013-03-25 18:54:39 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: I think that's a fair compromise
3835 2013-03-25 18:54:51 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Sure, it'd be nice, but again, you can always just create an OP_CHECK(MULTI)SIG instead.
3836 2013-03-25 18:54:53 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: and on the face, prunable output seems superior to OP_DROP
3837 2013-03-25 18:55:09 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: non withstanding, it is also better for the P2SH scenario
3838 2013-03-25 18:55:17 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: because P2SH implies lack of auditing
3839 2013-03-25 18:55:19 <gmaxwell> petertodd: yes, but thats "wrong"
3840 2013-03-25 18:55:20 <petertodd> jgarzik: Yeah, the standard can always interleave OP_RETURN's with the actual tx outputs in the transaction, say for a contract thing or whatever.
3841 2013-03-25 18:55:29 <jgarzik> I like it
3842 2013-03-25 18:55:45 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Wrong or not, people do this.
3843 2013-03-25 18:55:54 polrpaul has joined
3844 2013-03-25 18:56:05 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I can point to people and say "the right way is OP_RETURN PUSH,  this person abusing OP_CHECKSIG is a BAD BAD MAN violating the rules of the system"
3845 2013-03-25 18:56:06 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Anyway, my position is solidly that abuse will also become crazy expensive as fees go up.
3846 2013-03-25 18:56:32 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Sure, and then they'll say "but I need x bytes!" and go back to abuse.
3847 2013-03-25 18:56:40 <gmaxwell> petertodd: then it doesn't matter either way, and at least allowing one encourages shaping behavior— e.g. if you want to commit more than 32 bytes you should be using a hash tree.
3848 2013-03-25 18:56:41 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I mean, heck, fidelity bonds needs more than 32 bytes for the publish tx.
3849 2013-03-25 18:56:53 <gmaxwell> petertodd: no they don't.
3850 2013-03-25 18:57:18 <gmaxwell> petertodd: oh publish TX. well you need a better broadcast medium for that.
3851 2013-03-25 18:57:18 <petertodd> gmaxwell: You have to *prove* the whole world knew about your transaction! Making it a pointer to something else just isn't good enough.
3852 2013-03-25 18:57:23 joe_k1 has left ()
3853 2013-03-25 18:57:29 <jgarzik> I do think there is a valid business case for a TRUSTED person to approve some non-standard transactions, and have a transparent market for hash power, to mine blocks with non-standard transactions if (a) the price is right and (b) the non-standard template is approved by site engineers
3854 2013-03-25 18:57:37 <petertodd> gmaxwell: That said, fidelity bonds can be special cased in IsStandard(), but ugh.
3855 2013-03-25 18:57:41 <jgarzik> obviously it can go way way wrong a la GPUMAX
3856 2013-03-25 18:57:47 kuzetsa has quit (Quit: Stop doing that it. You don't want it to fall off.)
3857 2013-03-25 18:57:51 <petertodd> jgarzik: You mean Eligius? :P
3858 2013-03-25 18:58:05 <jgarzik> petertodd: yes, but less SPOF'y
3859 2013-03-25 18:58:14 * gmaxwell pukes on your "TRUSTED" :P
3860 2013-03-25 18:58:33 * petertodd still wants to publish a high fee rick-roll tx in bitcointalk.org/mining...
3861 2013-03-25 18:58:49 bakingbread has quit (Quit: quit)
3862 2013-03-25 18:58:52 <sipa> SPOF?
3863 2013-03-25 18:59:00 <BlueMatt> single point of failure
3864 2013-03-25 18:59:07 <gmaxwell> petertodd: in any case, if the system doesn't push 32 byte limits on people then they will not conform to such limits even if they easily could.
3865 2013-03-25 18:59:07 bakingbread has joined
3866 2013-03-25 18:59:37 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Alright, lets compromise, 32-byte limit, but you can put as many OP_RETURN txouts in the tx as you want.
3867 2013-03-25 18:59:40 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I'd even propose there be an entropy check on the pushed data if doing one wouldn't be faulture prone.
3868 2013-03-25 18:59:44 xavier23 has joined
3869 2013-03-25 19:00:06 MobPhone has joined
3870 2013-03-25 19:00:09 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Well, forcing it to meet a PoW is doable.
3871 2013-03-25 19:00:20 kuzetsa has joined
3872 2013-03-25 19:00:32 <petertodd> gmaxwell: As in H(digest) has 4 bytes zero.
3873 2013-03-25 19:00:42 <gmaxwell> Or one, for all it matters really.
3874 2013-03-25 19:01:26 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Well, that just means I can only store 31-bytes of data...
3875 2013-03-25 19:01:37 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Hmm... actually PoW probably won't work for that reason...
3876 2013-03-25 19:01:45 MobPhone has quit (Client Quit)
3877 2013-03-25 19:01:47 rbecker has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3878 2013-03-25 19:02:07 <gmaxwell> petertodd: for what reason?
3879 2013-03-25 19:02:35 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Basically instead of storing <data> store <nonce + data>, and use the nonce to meet the PoW even though your data is still there.
3880 2013-03-25 19:02:56 <jgarzik> I would think one OP_RETURN txout per transaction is sufficient, but more might be nice.
3881 2013-03-25 19:03:08 <jgarzik> if more, you might as well just increase the byte limit for the first.
3882 2013-03-25 19:03:43 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Basically I'm wondering what rules do we need so that everyone who can just add a single hash adds it— rather than storing their data explicitly in a dozen outputs.
3883 2013-03-25 19:03:43 <jgarzik> you can always have multiple OP_PUSHDATA
3884 2013-03-25 19:03:55 <petertodd> jgarzik: Well, one advantage of only allowing a given number of bytes is you make data storage more expensive due to the overhead.
3885 2013-03-25 19:04:04 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: rules for 32 bytes of space are silly
3886 2013-03-25 19:04:10 <sipa> if there is a limit of only one OP_RETURN <data>, can we require it to be the last txout of the transactions?
3887 2013-03-25 19:04:12 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: it is opaque data
3888 2013-03-25 19:04:19 rbecker has joined
3889 2013-03-25 19:04:22 <jgarzik> sipa: if only one... agreed
3890 2013-03-25 19:04:35 <petertodd> sipa: Nah, forcing it to be in a particular place screws with SIGHHASH applications.
3891 2013-03-25 19:04:51 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: they absolutely are not. Allowing arbritary data storage endangers the system generally. People who need commitments can commit a single hash, so for most uses they can be shaped generally into it.
3892 2013-03-25 19:04:57 <jgarzik> petertodd: hmmm, true
3893 2013-03-25 19:05:22 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: "plaintext" + "hash" is quite useful
3894 2013-03-25 19:05:27 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: "BOND <hash>"
3895 2013-03-25 19:05:28 <sipa> petertodd: hmmm; you'll have to be more concrete to convince me about that
3896 2013-03-25 19:05:29 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yes, but fundementally we already allow it, and can't not allow it, so allow a version of it that is less harmful.
3897 2013-03-25 19:05:50 ripshy has joined
3898 2013-03-25 19:06:09 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: the hash is meaningless to you without some out of band channel to find out what it means, that same channel can give you the txid where its committed.
3899 2013-03-25 19:06:27 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: the plaintext does you no particular good.
3900 2013-03-25 19:06:32 ripshy has quit (Client Quit)
3901 2013-03-25 19:06:33 <petertodd> sipa: Ok, so SIGHASH_SINGLE only signs txouts 0..n right? Now if OP_RETURN can only be at the end, if I'm the first txin in the tx, I can't commit to the value of the OP_RETURN. Similarly in the other direction, I can't *not* commit to the value.
3902 2013-03-25 19:07:09 <petertodd> sipa: In general SIGHHASH is annoyingly limited, but it's what we have right now.
3903 2013-03-25 19:07:29 <[Tycho]> I like non-standard TXes so much... But they are so rare :(
3904 2013-03-25 19:07:32 <sipa> i'm not sure it's at all useful in combination with a OP_RETURN [data]
3905 2013-03-25 19:07:44 <sipa> indeed because of its limitations
3906 2013-03-25 19:08:04 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3907 2013-03-25 19:08:15 <petertodd> sipa: Sure it is. For instance I might want to commit to funding some fidelity-bond-like contract thing.
3908 2013-03-25 19:09:19 <petertodd> sipa: I put N bitcoins in, sign a txout for Y<N bitcoins, which is my share, and know that whatever went to the fees, and now can move my shares around as needed.
3909 2013-03-25 19:09:37 tyn has joined
3910 2013-03-25 19:09:44 <petertodd> sipa: If we restrict OP_RETURN, people will write the protocol with an unprunable output instead.
3911 2013-03-25 19:09:47 normanrichards has quit ()
3912 2013-03-25 19:09:52 <gmaxwell> I am somewhat swayed by SIGHASH_SINGLE
3913 2013-03-25 19:10:36 <sipa> petertodd: sorry, i'm very tired now; i'll think about it later
3914 2013-03-25 19:10:53 <petertodd> sipa: No worries.
3915 2013-03-25 19:11:01 deltab has joined
3916 2013-03-25 19:13:41 Hasimir- has joined
3917 2013-03-25 19:14:05 Hasimir has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3918 2013-03-25 19:15:17 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: plaintext is useful for public tracking and auditing
3919 2013-03-25 19:15:21 Sealy has quit (Quit: Sealy)
3920 2013-03-25 19:16:10 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: and distributing childporn.
3921 2013-03-25 19:16:20 * jgarzik rolls eyes
3922 2013-03-25 19:16:33 <gmaxwell> We really do not want random data in the blockchain.
3923 2013-03-25 19:16:41 <gmaxwell> well _random_ is fine. :P
3924 2013-03-25 19:16:43 <petertodd> I do strongly feel gmaxwell has a point there... but I don't see any way we can stop that with the current system.
3925 2013-03-25 19:16:52 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: it is already unavoidable in standard multisig transactions
3926 2013-03-25 19:17:08 Lolcust has joined
3927 2013-03-25 19:17:26 <petertodd> Evaluating the entopy of a pubkey hash is fundementally impossible - you can always encrypt it with a well-known key.
3928 2013-03-25 19:17:53 <gmaxwell> We don't have to facilitate it, forcing the data to be broken up in tiny bits means that someone can't oggplayer ~/.bitcoin/blocks/blkxyz
3929 2013-03-25 19:18:29 <gmaxwell> Both rar and ogg will find their signatures _anywhere_ in a file. But they both do not handle data being split into 32 byte chunks.
3930 2013-03-25 19:18:53 Descry has joined
3931 2013-03-25 19:18:57 <gmaxwell> And even if the user uses custom tools, forcing small chunking adds overhead.
3932 2013-03-25 19:19:57 kerum has joined
3933 2013-03-25 19:20:09 <aceat64> looks like avalon batch 3 is out of stock now
3934 2013-03-25 19:20:22 <gmaxwell> Good.
3935 2013-03-25 19:20:32 <petertodd> Well, do you think that argument applies to 192byte chunks? 64? 32?
3936 2013-03-25 19:20:49 <petertodd> Certainely the full 10KB scriptPubKey is way too much.
3937 2013-03-25 19:21:01 <sipa> all depends on to what extent limitations have an effect
3938 2013-03-25 19:21:13 <sipa> if you require 1 byte data only, people will find ways around it
3939 2013-03-25 19:21:35 <petertodd> I mean, fundementally 3x 64bytes separated by fixed bytes is possible.
3940 2013-03-25 19:21:43 <sipa> if you require 32 bytes most, some people that would otherwise store 64 may spend some effort to reduce it
3941 2013-03-25 19:21:48 <gmaxwell> petertodd: Well ogg will JustWork(tm) if you can achieve an MTU of at least 27+255=282 bytes.
3942 2013-03-25 19:22:11 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Ok, so 192bytes meets that criteria.
3943 2013-03-25 19:22:16 <gmaxwell> Thats really most of the motivation: there should be some incentive so that someone who would store a non-hash but could store a hash will store a hash.
3944 2013-03-25 19:23:02 <petertodd> Well, frankly I think your biggest motivation is the cost.
3945 2013-03-25 19:23:21 <gmaxwell> petertodd: You can't keep assuming that there will be any pressure on blocksize, not so long as people are still presenting as fact that the limit will be removed. :(
3946 2013-03-25 19:23:34 <petertodd> Lets see, a txout adds 13 bytes of overhead to any data stored in it right?
3947 2013-03-25 19:24:03 <sipa> petertodd: to what?
3948 2013-03-25 19:24:19 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Right, but if it does get removed, it doesn't take much the other direction for straight up abuse to happen by stuffing it in pubkey hashes.
3949 2013-03-25 19:24:33 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: :(
3950 2013-03-25 19:24:44 <petertodd> sipa: As in 4bytes nSequence, 8bytes vout value, 1 byte scriptPubKey length.
3951 2013-03-25 19:25:00 <sipa> petertodd: yes, i know it is 13 bytes in bitcoin encoding
3952 2013-03-25 19:25:04 <sipa> but what are you talking about
3953 2013-03-25 19:25:11 <gmaxwell> petertodd: sure, though at least other abusive behavior doesn't decode in unmodified software, and at least that transmits a message that the usage is somewhat improper.
3954 2013-03-25 19:25:43 <petertodd> sipa: Just as in how forcing the data to fit in the 32bytes ads overhead and thus cost.
3955 2013-03-25 19:26:04 <sipa> petertodd: yes, but to what? network bandwidth? chain storage? utxo storage?
3956 2013-03-25 19:26:17 <petertodd> sipa: tx cost from per-KB fees
3957 2013-03-25 19:26:18 bernard75 has joined
3958 2013-03-25 19:26:32 <sipa> petertodd: e.g. uses a custom encoding for UTXO's which will have much lower overhead than 13 bytes on disk
3959 2013-03-25 19:26:34 FredEE_ has joined
3960 2013-03-25 19:26:38 <sipa> 0.8
3961 2013-03-25 19:27:02 <CodeShark> the pricing model for tx fees should depend differently on the different kinds of overhead sipa mentions
3962 2013-03-25 19:27:04 <petertodd> sipa: Right, but remember we are talking about prunable tx's here.
3963 2013-03-25 19:27:05 <sipa> ah, ok
3964 2013-03-25 19:27:17 <CodeShark> utxo bloat should cost more than a few extra bytes that are never used
3965 2013-03-25 19:27:38 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Well, as I say I'm happy to compromise on 32bytes, but only if you can have multiple OP_RETURN's
3966 2013-03-25 19:27:46 <sipa> well, assuming block size is the limiting factor for miners, price-per-kB will be what is maximized by them
3967 2013-03-25 19:27:50 <CodeShark> but I guess such a fee structure can't really be enforced by iners
3968 2013-03-25 19:27:55 <CodeShark> on miners
3969 2013-03-25 19:28:06 <gmaxwell> petertodd: multiple OP_RETURNS gets your SIGHASH argument.  But jeff didn't like the limit.
3970 2013-03-25 19:28:06 Descry has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3971 2013-03-25 19:28:26 FredEE has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3972 2013-03-25 19:28:26 FredEE_ is now known as FredEE
3973 2013-03-25 19:28:29 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3974 2013-03-25 19:28:36 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Hey, I don't like the limit either, I want my fidelity bonds. :P
3975 2013-03-25 19:28:38 <CodeShark> well, it could be enforced if the block size rules also weighed such things accordingly
3976 2013-03-25 19:28:43 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I did actually come up with a way of doing that, but it's very not bitcoin.
3977 2013-03-25 19:29:01 <petertodd> Anyway though, lunch is over here, bbl.
3978 2013-03-25 19:29:25 brson has joined
3979 2013-03-25 19:29:32 eipeace_ has joined
3980 2013-03-25 19:29:45 <CodeShark> perhaps it would be better to have not only a block size limit - but limits on specific types of data in the block
3981 2013-03-25 19:29:57 <CodeShark> a more granular MAX_BLOCK_SIZE
3982 2013-03-25 19:30:12 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: exactly. see https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/alt_ideas  and look for Prepay ... basically the idea is that you let txouts reserve space in future blocks— diminishing the space in this block, and spending them adds the space back.
3983 2013-03-25 19:30:18 <sipa> a more granular limit? Ok, I'm in favor of 1000000.327 bytes
3984 2013-03-25 19:30:23 <CodeShark> lol
3985 2013-03-25 19:30:46 phlogiston has joined
3986 2013-03-25 19:31:11 <gmaxwell> sipa: my nodes enforce 1000000.4999… :P
3987 2013-03-25 19:31:17 <CodeShark> that web server's been slow for me lately, gmaxwell
3988 2013-03-25 19:31:35 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: yea it's not loading for me.
3989 2013-03-25 19:31:36 <BlueMatt> freenode lost my topic
3990 2013-03-25 19:31:39 <sipa> gmaxwell: oh... mine allow up to 1000000.9999998
3991 2013-03-25 19:31:54 <sipa> dang, forking bug!
3992 2013-03-25 19:32:05 bitcoiner has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3993 2013-03-25 19:32:23 <sipa> (note to any journalist intending to quote me present: this is a joke)
3994 2013-03-25 19:32:29 <CodeShark> the block limit should be an irrational number
3995 2013-03-25 19:32:54 lodse has joined
3996 2013-03-25 19:33:12 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: but the idea is that each txout specifies the maximum size of a signature that can spend it. That size is diminished from the _current_ maximum block size. When that txout is spend, that amount is _added_ to that block's maximum blocksize.
3997 2013-03-25 19:33:28 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: so effectively a transaction must prepay the data size required to redeem it.
3998 2013-03-25 19:33:39 <CodeShark> that's not such a terrible idea
3999 2013-03-25 19:34:00 <xavier23> Hi everyone
4000 2013-03-25 19:34:07 <sipa> i'd be willing to even claim that it's a decidedly unterrible idea
4001 2013-03-25 19:34:11 bitcoiner has joined
4002 2013-03-25 19:34:29 <xavier23> I just wondered if anyone has a link with a good summary to the current proposals re: the block chain size / scalability issues
4003 2013-03-25 19:34:33 <xavier23> THanks
4004 2013-03-25 19:34:58 <xavier23> (Or a forum post)
4005 2013-03-25 19:35:10 <gmaxwell> There are some corner cases, like some genius miner building a zillion byte block by spending a lot of stored size... But they're all solvable. But there is a lot of impact on the rest of the system, e.g. addresses have to encode the proper size to reserve.
4006 2013-03-25 19:35:10 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
4007 2013-03-25 19:35:13 <kjj> are there any actual proposals?  I've mostly seen wild guesses
4008 2013-03-25 19:35:25 <gmaxwell> There are no proposals right now that I'm aware of.
4009 2013-03-25 19:35:36 <MCM-Mike> is there any chance that relaying transaction someday might be profitable ?
4010 2013-03-25 19:35:50 <gmaxwell> Well beyond "remove the blocksize limit completely" and people reponding "Ah. Lol wut?? heck no!"
4011 2013-03-25 19:35:52 <sipa> there are two that i know of: leave it as is, remove it entirely :)
4012 2013-03-25 19:35:58 <xavier23> gmaxwell: Really? What about this one , for example: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=157597.0
4013 2013-03-25 19:36:11 <kjj> relaying?  maybe, but out-of-band
4014 2013-03-25 19:36:50 <gmaxwell> xavier23: Ah, I didn't think you were asking about system external things. I'm not aware of any summaries.
4015 2013-03-25 19:36:54 <gmaxwell> MCM-Mike: No.
4016 2013-03-25 19:37:04 <MCM-Mike> k
4017 2013-03-25 19:37:16 <gmaxwell> MCM-Mike: but it's already "profitable" in the sense that it makes the system healty which is good for you if you use it.
4018 2013-03-25 19:37:36 <gmaxwell> MCM-Mike: it's also quite cheap to do...
4019 2013-03-25 19:38:15 <xavier23> gmaxwell: You are not aware of anything published from the Bitcoin Foundation, for example..
4020 2013-03-25 19:38:18 <MCM-Mike> I know, this is why I added to bitcoind servers to the community to give a bit back :)
4021 2013-03-25 19:39:05 ovidiusoft has joined
4022 2013-03-25 19:40:01 <tonikt> Hi guys. Can I have another stupid question today? :)
4023 2013-03-25 19:40:08 <gmaxwell> xavier23: No. You're aware that the Bitcoin Foundation is a bitcoin-booster's org— right? It doesn't have any more authority over Bitcoin than any other assortment of similar Bitcoin users.
4024 2013-03-25 19:40:14 <tonikt> This time about a block in the testnet3
4025 2013-03-25 19:40:22 <tonikt> http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/block/00000000b75d142495131112909d3e29e72e7d22139bcab18ca55f153fca3a50
4026 2013-03-25 19:40:24 <gmaxwell> tonikt: Cool. Ask away.
4027 2013-03-25 19:40:48 <tonikt> So it has 3 transactions: each seems to leave 0.0005 BTC fee...
4028 2013-03-25 19:41:00 <gmaxwell> yup
4029 2013-03-25 19:41:12 <gmaxwell> The coinbase is not required to take all the fees.
4030 2013-03-25 19:41:14 <tonikt> But the total fee seems to be differrent form the sum
4031 2013-03-25 19:41:17 <tonikt> Oh, ok
4032 2013-03-25 19:41:20 <kjj> does blockexplorer understand P2SH addresses?
4033 2013-03-25 19:41:24 <tonikt> Thats what I needed to know
4034 2013-03-25 19:41:49 <sipa> tonikt: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/4573/what-happens-when-a-miner-does-not-claim-all-fees-generated-coins/4574#4574
4035 2013-03-25 19:41:51 WKNiGHT has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
4036 2013-03-25 19:41:56 Fanquake has left ()
4037 2013-03-25 19:42:07 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
4038 2013-03-25 19:42:20 <tonikt> OK - cheers, guys!
4039 2013-03-25 19:43:39 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
4040 2013-03-25 19:43:41 <xavier23> gmaxwell: True. However I noticed that they are funded (based on their membership fees) pretty heavily ma
4041 2013-03-25 19:44:02 <xavier23> gmaxwell: And also have all the main miners and bitcoin companies signed up
4042 2013-03-25 19:44:20 <xavier23> gmaxwell: So basically if they say, oh we're changing the protocol, everyone has to follow
4043 2013-03-25 19:44:31 <gmaxwell> xavier23: That isn't the case.
4044 2013-03-25 19:44:34 <Luke-Jr> xavier23: err, main miners? I don't think any mining pool has membership
4045 2013-03-25 19:44:48 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: meh, in practical terms it pretty much is
4046 2013-03-25 19:44:54 <gmaxwell> xavier23: Also, the membership of the foundation doesn't have a lot of authority in it, see the bylaws.
4047 2013-03-25 19:45:00 d4de has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4048 2013-03-25 19:46:24 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: only to the extent that mtgox is represented on the board there. Remove that I and don't think your argument holds. And presumably mtgox knows that if they tried to force a bitcoin protocol change on the public, even if it was via BF as a mouthpiece, that would likely not go well.
4049 2013-03-25 19:46:31 rbecker is now known as RBecker
4050 2013-03-25 19:46:53 <kjj> you know, if people actually paid attention to how much the devs agonize about protecting people running old software, they wouldn't come up with these crazy theories about the foundation breaking the laws of physics for evil
4051 2013-03-25 19:47:03 <helo> are foundation fees going to be recalculated april 1st?
4052 2013-03-25 19:47:12 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: the practical case I was thinking of was BF forcing a protocol change with MtGox following along
4053 2013-03-25 19:47:13 BenderCoin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4054 2013-03-25 19:47:32 saivann has joined
4055 2013-03-25 19:48:01 <xavier23> gmaxwell: I looked at the bylaws. It says the board members (who control the foundation) are elected by the members. ??? So how does the membership not have a lot of authority? Sorry , don't understand this
4056 2013-03-25 19:48:01 Guest67544 is now known as takeyourhatoff
4057 2013-03-25 19:48:10 <CodeShark> mtgox without the bitcoin dev support falls apart
4058 2013-03-25 19:48:13 <gmaxwell> xavier23: Because there are two kinds of member.
4059 2013-03-25 19:48:21 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: lol.
4060 2013-03-25 19:48:25 <kjj> lukestokes: but that just reduces to the case where Gavin + Mtgox want a change.  the foundation doesn't add ANY authority to anyone
4061 2013-03-25 19:48:32 toffoo has joined
4062 2013-03-25 19:48:43 <gmaxwell> What kjj says.
4063 2013-03-25 19:49:08 <xavier23> gmaxwell: individual , cop orate, founding member
4064 2013-03-25 19:49:24 <xavier23> gmaxwell: each type has the ability to control who is on the board
4065 2013-03-25 19:49:30 <CodeShark> and even gavin can't afford to lose the support of everyone in here
4066 2013-03-25 19:49:56 <kjj> CodeShark: sure he can, but bitcoin doesn't care, because in this game no one has any authority
4067 2013-03-25 19:50:09 <CodeShark> if he did he'd lose his position
4068 2013-03-25 19:50:16 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I think you overestimate some things because you hang out here and work with the people here. There are entire other circles of the bitcoin universe whos expirence is rather different from yours.
4069 2013-03-25 19:50:37 <gmaxwell> But whats true — in general— is that change can't come without the support of the Bitcoin using community.
4070 2013-03-25 19:51:01 <CodeShark> politics isn't as simple as someone dictating things and everyone having to comply
4071 2013-03-25 19:51:06 <kjj> and that support has to be overwhelming, not merely some or even most
4072 2013-03-25 19:51:09 <CodeShark> despite what some people might want
4073 2013-03-25 19:51:11 space_cadet has joined
4074 2013-03-25 19:51:14 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
4075 2013-03-25 19:51:21 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: Indeed.
4076 2013-03-25 19:51:28 <xavier23> Luke-Jr: this page has a list of all the members - Im guessing that many of the members on that page, as well as the anonymous ones , are miners
4077 2013-03-25 19:51:32 <xavier23> Luke-Jr: https://bitcoinfoundation.org/members
4078 2013-03-25 19:51:34 Saberu has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
4079 2013-03-25 19:51:46 <xavier23> Luke-Jr: a miner has no incentive to make their membership of the foundation public
4080 2013-03-25 19:52:14 <Luke-Jr> xavier23: that's a somewhat silly guess IMO
4081 2013-03-25 19:52:36 <sipa> there is at least one big pool's operator listed there
4082 2013-03-25 19:52:49 <kjj> well, I'm not on that list, and I have a couple of boxes on p2pool
4083 2013-03-25 19:52:53 <Luke-Jr> sipa: but that doesn't mean the pool is a member, jsut the op
4084 2013-03-25 19:52:58 <xavier23> Luke-Jr: ? How? if u are investing a lot of money into a bitcoin mining company, you'd want to have a say into how the protocol works. and be connected to the other people who do.
4085 2013-03-25 19:53:09 <kjj> so, maybe in a strange technical sense, it is possible that the majority of the unlisted are "miners"
4086 2013-03-25 19:53:16 <Luke-Jr> xavier23: Foundation membership doesn't give any such a say.
4087 2013-03-25 19:53:29 <Luke-Jr> xavier23: and a lot of non-miners would also be interested in being members
4088 2013-03-25 19:53:47 <gonffen> sipa: could you define 'lost'? Does that mean the coins just go back to the sender? Or does it mean they're removed from the total available bitcoins?
4089 2013-03-25 19:53:49 phlogiston has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4090 2013-03-25 19:53:49 NilamDoc has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4091 2013-03-25 19:53:51 guruvan_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4092 2013-03-25 19:53:59 <sipa> gonffen: removed
4093 2013-03-25 19:54:01 <kjj> gonffen: gone forever
4094 2013-03-25 19:54:19 <sipa> well, in theory, any (hardforking) change must be supported by every full node (or risk being left behind)
4095 2013-03-25 19:54:22 dc8181 has joined
4096 2013-03-25 19:54:23 <xavier23> Luke-Jr: foundation goal #1: "Standardizing Bitcoin"
4097 2013-03-25 19:54:28 guruvan_ has joined
4098 2013-03-25 19:54:30 <xavier23> Luke-Jr: https://bitcoinfoundation.org/about/
4099 2013-03-25 19:54:32 <gmaxwell> Thats nice.
4100 2013-03-25 19:54:44 <Luke-Jr> xavier23: yes, that means they contribute financially
4101 2013-03-25 19:54:47 <kjj> oh for fuck's sake.  do we have to keep having this debate?  in here?
4102 2013-03-25 19:54:50 <gonffen> sipa: kjj so in ridiculous theory, someone could chew up coins lowering the cap below 21M?
4103 2013-03-25 19:55:00 <sipa> gonffen: sure
4104 2013-03-25 19:55:01 <kjj> gonffen: sure
4105 2013-03-25 19:55:06 <sipa> gonffen: destroying coins is easy
4106 2013-03-25 19:55:06 <Luke-Jr> gonffen: it was never exactly 21M
4107 2013-03-25 19:55:29 gdoteof has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4108 2013-03-25 19:55:36 <CodeShark> it only approaches 21M asymptotically - it's a convergent geometric series
4109 2013-03-25 19:55:37 <kjj> but it'd be expensive, and you'd really be transferring the value you were destroying to everyone else
4110 2013-03-25 19:55:46 BenderCoin has joined
4111 2013-03-25 19:56:09 <CodeShark> 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + ... = 2
4112 2013-03-25 19:56:23 <gonffen> I agree it doesn't really matter but it just sounds silly and the kind of thing I'd expect people to take out of context.
4113 2013-03-25 19:56:31 <Luke-Jr> O.o;; " luke-jr closed the pull request in a few seconds "
4114 2013-03-25 19:56:31 rdymac has joined
4115 2013-03-25 19:56:37 <CodeShark> except that instead of 1 it is 10,500,000
4116 2013-03-25 19:56:43 <gonffen> Glad you folks have answers. :)
4117 2013-03-25 19:56:44 <sipa> Luke-Jr: where?
4118 2013-03-25 19:56:51 bolted has joined
4119 2013-03-25 19:56:51 <Luke-Jr> sipa: GitHub, BFGMiner
4120 2013-03-25 19:56:58 <Luke-Jr> sipa: just curious that it's speaking about a future time
4121 2013-03-25 19:57:11 rdymac has quit (Client Quit)
4122 2013-03-25 19:57:12 <sipa> ha
4123 2013-03-25 19:58:09 <bolted> In https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts, there are several contracts listed that suggest user X post a transaction to user Y’s server, without broadcasting to the network, and then allow user Y to broadcast to the network at a later date. Is avoiding double-spend in this case a trivial/solved problem?
4124 2013-03-25 19:58:13 <kjj> 20999999.976  <-- maximum potential bitcoins.  reality will be at least 50 less than that
4125 2013-03-25 19:58:26 bitcoin-dev347 has joined
4126 2013-03-25 19:58:34 <kjj> oops, dropped a digit.  20999999.9769
4127 2013-03-25 19:58:44 <CodeShark> that's taking rounding errors into account?
4128 2013-03-25 19:58:47 bitcoin-dev347 is now known as v3ryel33t3
4129 2013-03-25 19:58:55 <v3ryel33t3> is there an easy way to make a boostrap.dat file for the rest of us? this way, someone could release it, say, bi-weekly and seed over torrent. no?
4130 2013-03-25 19:58:56 <sipa> CodeShark: "rounding errors" ?
4131 2013-03-25 19:59:01 skinnkavaj has joined
4132 2013-03-25 19:59:05 <sipa> CodeShark: it's completely defined in terms of integer arithmetic
4133 2013-03-25 19:59:06 <CodeShark> well, integer divisions
4134 2013-03-25 19:59:33 <CodeShark> the difference between the integer result and the result if you use real numbers
4135 2013-03-25 19:59:33 <kjj> that is calculated using floor in Excel, effectively truncation
4136 2013-03-25 19:59:33 <sipa> v3ryel33t3: yes, cat all your block/blk*.dat files together
4137 2013-03-25 19:59:54 <v3ryel33t3> sipa, brilliant, i'll try, thanks
4138 2013-03-25 20:00:21 <warren> who runs the bitcoin wiki?  it's down
4139 2013-03-25 20:00:37 <sipa> warren: poke MagicalTux
4140 2013-03-25 20:01:11 <warren> oh.  it's back.
4141 2013-03-25 20:01:42 <sipa> ha
4142 2013-03-25 20:02:25 <gmaxwell> I'd rather not promote an understanding other than the mathmatical limit of 21M.. simply because if precision is increased people shouldn't be forced to emulate the old subsidy just to prevent creating a fraction of a bitcoin "too much". meh.
4143 2013-03-25 20:03:09 <sipa> gmaxwell: depends whether you talk about bitcoin's current laws, or the implied set of rules we assume it will always adhere to
4144 2013-03-25 20:03:22 Guest16759 has joined
4145 2013-03-25 20:03:38 <CodeShark> is it floor(10,500,000/2^n)? or is it floor(floor(...floor(floor(10,500,000/2^n)/2^(n-1))/...))?
4146 2013-03-25 20:03:56 <kjj> gmaxwell: adding digits to the scaling factor doesn't actually add much to the total
4147 2013-03-25 20:03:59 <CodeShark> err
4148 2013-03-25 20:04:24 <CodeShark> is it floor(10,500,000/2^n)? or is it floor(floor(...floor(floor(10,500,000/2^0)/2^1))/...))?
4149 2013-03-25 20:04:31 <CodeShark> argh
4150 2013-03-25 20:04:33 <sipa> neither
4151 2013-03-25 20:04:35 <CodeShark> is it floor(10,500,000/2^n)? or is it floor(floor(...floor(floor(10,500,000/2^0)/2))/...))?
4152 2013-03-25 20:04:55 <CodeShark> in other words, do you truncate each time you halve?
4153 2013-03-25 20:05:05 Guest16759 has quit (Changing host)
4154 2013-03-25 20:05:05 Guest16759 has joined
4155 2013-03-25 20:05:08 <sipa> CodeShark: it is 210000*sum(i=0..infinity, 5000000000 >> i)
4156 2013-03-25 20:05:08 <kjj> CodeShark: yes, there are no partial satoshis
4157 2013-03-25 20:05:20 Guest16759 is now known as WKNiGHT-
4158 2013-03-25 20:05:47 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
4159 2013-03-25 20:05:48 <sipa> or floor(5000000000/2^i) in your formulation
4160 2013-03-25 20:05:51 <kjj> changing the scaling factor from 1e8 to 1e11 adds about 0.02 BTC to the limit
4161 2013-03-25 20:06:05 <sipa> you round for every block, not for the entire 210000-block cycle
4162 2013-03-25 20:06:41 <CodeShark> so each halving, you just consider the previous 210,000 block reward - you don't care about the original 10,500,000
4163 2013-03-25 20:06:57 <flyingkiwiguy> when we need to divide Satoshis that will be a very good thing (tm)
4164 2013-03-25 20:07:00 <kjj> ooh, and make sure your rounding function is correct.  it is really binary shift, meaning that you always round down or truncate
4165 2013-03-25 20:07:01 <sipa> use thre source, luke :)
4166 2013-03-25 20:07:12 rowit has joined
4167 2013-03-25 20:07:17 <CodeShark> div 2 is exactly that, kjj
4168 2013-03-25 20:07:21 <CodeShark> integer arithmetic
4169 2013-03-25 20:07:36 <CodeShark> but there's still an ambiguity
4170 2013-03-25 20:08:24 v3ryel33t3 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4171 2013-03-25 20:08:27 normanrichards has joined
4172 2013-03-25 20:08:38 <CodeShark> anyhow...
4173 2013-03-25 20:08:47 CaptainBlaze has joined
4174 2013-03-25 20:08:50 <CodeShark> ok - so 5000000000 >> n
4175 2013-03-25 20:08:55 <CodeShark> got it, sipa
4176 2013-03-25 20:08:58 TD has joined
4177 2013-03-25 20:09:31 <djoot> hmm.. if my calculations are correct then the genesis block is protected by approximataly 160 * 10^21 hashes
4178 2013-03-25 20:09:57 <sipa> djoot: no need to calculate; the client explicitly computes it :)
4179 2013-03-25 20:10:07 <djoot> oh :)
4180 2013-03-25 20:10:09 <djoot> how?
4181 2013-03-25 20:10:14 <djoot> can i see it? :)
4182 2013-03-25 20:10:41 <sipa> in debug.log
4183 2013-03-25 20:10:47 <sipa> look for lines with SetBestChain
4184 2013-03-25 20:10:53 <sipa> the current number is 907707081550713739440
4185 2013-03-25 20:10:58 <kjj> ok, so block 1 had a subsidy of 100101010000001011111001000000000b satoshis, as did the next 209999 blocks.  after that, the subsidy shifted off 1 bit to 10010101000000101111100100000000b
4186 2013-03-25 20:11:20 <sipa> djoot: so you're a bit off :)
4187 2013-03-25 20:11:29 <sipa> around 200 times
4188 2013-03-25 20:11:48 <djoot> hmm.. not too bad :)
4189 2013-03-25 20:11:52 bolted has quit (Quit: Page closed)
4190 2013-03-25 20:12:01 <sipa> kjj: no, 210000 had 25 BTC, not 50 BTC reward
4191 2013-03-25 20:12:31 <kjj> ahh, damn off by 1 error.  but we started at block 0, right?
4192 2013-03-25 20:12:52 <sipa> yes, blocks 0-219999 have 50 BTC, 210000-439999 have 25 BTC, ...
4193 2013-03-25 20:12:59 <sipa> but 0's coinbase is unspendable
4194 2013-03-25 20:13:08 <sipa> eh
4195 2013-03-25 20:13:11 [\\\] has joined
4196 2013-03-25 20:13:18 <sipa> 0-209999, 210000-419999, ...
4197 2013-03-25 20:13:46 <kjj> not unspendable by protocol, but unspendable because of a bug
4198 2013-03-25 20:13:53 <sipa> irrelevant
4199 2013-03-25 20:14:24 <kjj> think 100 years into the future.  no one will still be running code unable to find that tx
4200 2013-03-25 20:14:28 whizter has joined
4201 2013-03-25 20:14:50 <sipa> why would anyone change it?
4202 2013-03-25 20:15:11 <kjj> because it is a silly bug
4203 2013-03-25 20:15:22 <sipa> maybe
4204 2013-03-25 20:15:27 <sipa> maybe it was intention
4205 2013-03-25 20:15:31 <sipa> al
4206 2013-03-25 20:15:56 nsillik has joined
4207 2013-03-25 20:16:07 <sipa> in a hardfork it can be changed of course, but i see no reason to
4208 2013-03-25 20:16:20 <kjj> maybe indeed.  but 20 years from now, people are going to look at the line in their code that explicitly prevents it and wonder why that is still there
4209 2013-03-25 20:16:40 mahler has joined
4210 2013-03-25 20:16:47 <sipa> no need to wait 20 years
4211 2013-03-25 20:16:51 <sipa> we already have that now
4212 2013-03-25 20:16:56 <sipa> and we haven't changed it :)
4213 2013-03-25 20:17:29 <CodeShark> mathematica says 20,999,999.99999980
4214 2013-03-25 20:17:30 <CodeShark> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Sum%5BFloor%5B1050000000000000%2F2%5En%5D%2C%7Bn%2C0%2C3000%7D%5D
4215 2013-03-25 20:17:48 <CodeShark> excel has rounding errors?
4216 2013-03-25 20:17:50 <kjj> I guess it'll depend on who write the spec.  it isn't a bug that is likely to be exercised
4217 2013-03-25 20:17:50 <sipa> then mathematica - or your formula - are wrong
4218 2013-03-25 20:18:20 <CodeShark> hmmm
4219 2013-03-25 20:18:24 <sipa> CodeShark: you're again rounding per cycle and not per block
4220 2013-03-25 20:18:39 sgornick has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
4221 2013-03-25 20:18:52 <CodeShark> oh, lol
4222 2013-03-25 20:18:57 <sipa> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=210000*Sum[Floor[5000000000%2F2^n]%2C{n%2C0%2C3000}]
4223 2013-03-25 20:19:33 <gonffen> kjj: in 100 years who will have the private key to spend it?
4224 2013-03-25 20:19:35 chylee has joined
4225 2013-03-25 20:19:37 kadoban has joined
4226 2013-03-25 20:19:38 darkskiez has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4227 2013-03-25 20:19:39 <CodeShark> yes, gotcha
4228 2013-03-25 20:19:52 <sipa> gmaxwell: maybe Satoshi'd grandchildren?
4229 2013-03-25 20:19:56 <sipa> 's
4230 2013-03-25 20:20:00 <sipa> eh, gonffen
4231 2013-03-25 20:20:12 <gonffen> maybe :P
4232 2013-03-25 20:20:12 <kjj> gonffen: impossible to say if anyone does now
4233 2013-03-25 20:20:38 <gonffen> it seems like kind of a moot issue. It is only 25BTC.
4234 2013-03-25 20:21:09 <sipa> gonffen: it is about giving someone the right to hard fork the network instantly
4235 2013-03-25 20:21:11 <kjj> 50
4236 2013-03-25 20:21:14 <sipa> not about those 50 BTC
4237 2013-03-25 20:21:20 rowit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
4238 2013-03-25 20:21:42 <sipa> yes, it can be changed, but only if every client changes it at once
4239 2013-03-25 20:21:42 BlackPrapor has quit (2!~kvirc@h31-8-106-214.dyn.bashtel.ru|Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4240 2013-03-25 20:22:12 <gonffen> makes sense
4241 2013-03-25 20:22:25 darkskiez has joined
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4243 2013-03-25 20:22:25 darkskiez has joined
4244 2013-03-25 20:22:48 <kjj> for all we know, the network is already forked in the sense that non-reference clients may or may not implement the bug properly
4245 2013-03-25 20:23:55 <kjj> that would actually be a good thing to put into a standardization document
4246 2013-03-25 20:24:10 <sipa> yes
4247 2013-03-25 20:25:09 <kjj> and honestly, crap like that could be the start of a practical standardization project.  all of the little details where the network does things oddly
4248 2013-03-25 20:26:38 Muis_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
4249 2013-03-25 20:27:00 Kinnard has joined
4250 2013-03-25 20:27:18 rowit has joined
4251 2013-03-25 20:27:48 <Kinnard> Hi, I'm trying to build bitcoin on ubuntu but I keep getting error messages.
4252 2013-03-25 20:27:53 <Kinnard> Would anyone be able to help?
4253 2013-03-25 20:27:57 mahler has left ()
4254 2013-03-25 20:28:07 <kjj> probably.  what errors?
4255 2013-03-25 20:28:31 <sipa> Kinnard: have you read doc/build-unix.txt ?
4256 2013-03-25 20:28:39 <Kinnard> the current one is "fatal error: miniupnpc/miniwget.h: No such file or directory compilation terminated."
4257 2013-03-25 20:28:41 <Kinnard> yes
4258 2013-03-25 20:28:44 <Kinnard> I have it open now
4259 2013-03-25 20:28:52 <Kinnard> I may be misreading it
4260 2013-03-25 20:29:00 <bakingbread> hey guys. anybody knows how to get number of confirms of transaction via blockchain API? I can get transaction list for given address, I can get transaction details as well.. but I don't see where is confirmations number available
4261 2013-03-25 20:29:23 clr_ has joined
4262 2013-03-25 20:29:34 Muis has joined
4263 2013-03-25 20:29:44 <bakingbread> or maybe I can do it through bitcoind? (but I don't want to sync all blockchain just for this)
4264 2013-03-25 20:31:03 clr_ is now known as c00w
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4267 2013-03-25 20:31:21 <sipa> Kinnard: either install libminiupnpc, or build with USE_UPNP=
4268 2013-03-25 20:31:46 <sipa> bakingbread: does it say which block it is in?
4269 2013-03-25 20:32:01 <Kinnard> K, I'll try that again, thanks
4270 2013-03-25 20:32:15 space_cadet has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4271 2013-03-25 20:32:37 Muis_ has joined
4272 2013-03-25 20:33:58 <Kinnard> Sipa: are there any qualitative differences doing it one way or the other?
4273 2013-03-25 20:34:29 <sipa> Kinnard: depends on whether you want UPNP support
4274 2013-03-25 20:35:01 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
4275 2013-03-25 20:35:06 LainZ has joined
4276 2013-03-25 20:35:26 <jgarzik> SpaceX, on software development and lessons-learned: http://lwn.net/Articles/540368/
4277 2013-03-25 20:35:57 Muis has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
4278 2013-03-25 20:36:17 <Kinnard> Sipa: Hmmm, having UPNP support seems like a good idea, would you say so?
4279 2013-03-25 20:36:21 <jgarzik> " It uses triply redundant computers to achieve the required level of fault tolerance. The Byzantine generals' algorithm is used to handle situations where the computers do not agree."
4280 2013-03-25 20:36:32 <sipa> Kinnard: depends entirely on how you use it
4281 2013-03-25 20:36:51 <kjj> crap, I meant to read that article the other day
4282 2013-03-25 20:37:00 m00p has joined
4283 2013-03-25 20:37:36 <Kinnard> Sipa: Do you know of any good resources describing bitcoin specific use cases of UPNP?
4284 2013-03-25 20:37:54 <kjj> Kinnard: you don't need it, just turn it off
4285 2013-03-25 20:38:17 <sipa> Kinnard: this sentence: "UPNP is used to try to automatically forward traffic to Bitcoin's P2P port"
4286 2013-03-25 20:38:48 <bakingbread> sipa: hmmm  can't see it. here is an example http://blockchain.info/tx-index/acfc6734cad74d87e6c300dcbb41ef267fbb32eec439384aa0ed9027c7ba1751?format=json
4287 2013-03-25 20:39:05 <sipa> bakingbread: block_height is what you need
4288 2013-03-25 20:39:23 <sipa> confirmations is current_block_height - transaction_block_height + 1
4289 2013-03-25 20:39:30 grau has joined
4290 2013-03-25 20:39:48 <bakingbread> sipa: oh I see
4291 2013-03-25 20:39:53 <bakingbread> sipa: why +1?
4292 2013-03-25 20:40:07 <sipa> bakingbread: because the block where it is in, is the first confirmation
4293 2013-03-25 20:40:10 Scrat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4294 2013-03-25 20:40:16 <sipa> so if it's equal, you already have one
4295 2013-03-25 20:40:25 <bakingbread> sipa: clear
4296 2013-03-25 20:40:32 <CodeShark> the whole 0-indexing vs 1-indexing thing :)
4297 2013-03-25 20:40:39 <sipa> not really
4298 2013-03-25 20:40:51 <CodeShark> well, sorta
4299 2013-03-25 20:40:55 <sipa> using 0 confirmations for the first block it is would not be correct
4300 2013-03-25 20:41:04 <CodeShark> I guess you'd need to call unconfirmed -1
4301 2013-03-25 20:41:10 <sipa> agree
4302 2013-03-25 20:41:41 <kjj> undefined would be a better term
4303 2013-03-25 20:41:51 <CodeShark> ?
4304 2013-03-25 20:42:21 <jgarzik> unconfirmed is... unconfirmed. not yet confirmed by anyone.
4305 2013-03-25 20:42:23 <kjj> 227997 - undefined = undefined, not -1
4306 2013-03-25 20:42:27 <MC1984_> genesis coins might be quite a collectors item
4307 2013-03-25 20:42:47 <bakingbread> sipa: thanks, now I can do it
4308 2013-03-25 20:43:44 <helo> if someone wants to move to an encrypted wallet, is the best way to encrypt it and then send all of their coin to a new address retrieved post-encryption?
4309 2013-03-25 20:43:56 <CodeShark> kjj: I was just considering integer types
4310 2013-03-25 20:44:22 <sipa> helo: first encrypt, then make a backup, then move
4311 2013-03-25 20:44:50 <helo> sipa: thanks from David__ ;)
4312 2013-03-25 20:47:30 Scrat has joined
4313 2013-03-25 20:48:31 <jgarzik> 0 confirmations is unconfirmed.
4314 2013-03-25 20:48:37 <jgarzik> 1-6 confirmations is lightly confirmed.
4315 2013-03-25 20:48:59 <jgarzik> 6+ confirmed
4316 2013-03-25 20:49:00 <helo> 15:27 < David__> entering passphrase caused Bitcoin to exit
4317 2013-03-25 20:49:05 <jgarzik> 150+ securely confirmed
4318 2013-03-25 20:49:10 <helo> ^ user moving from unencrypted wallet to encrypted wallet
4319 2013-03-25 20:49:25 <helo> 15:27 < MineMinerals> it did for me as well
4320 2013-03-25 20:49:25 <kjj> heh.  maybe we should recode the GUI to show how many petahashes would need to be redone to overturn a transaction, instead of a block count.  /ducks
4321 2013-03-25 20:49:32 <sipa> helo: yes
4322 2013-03-25 20:49:38 <sipa> helo: expected
4323 2013-03-25 20:49:50 <helo> ok, just making sure... it's been a whiiiile
4324 2013-03-25 20:50:13 <sipa> it shuts down after encrypting, to be able to make sure the wallet file gets rewritten (done at next startup)
4325 2013-03-25 20:51:01 <gmaxwell> helo: encrypt, backup, send.
4326 2013-03-25 20:51:04 <sipa> jgarzik: 2016+ ultra confirmed
4327 2013-03-25 20:51:04 nus- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4328 2013-03-25 20:51:11 <sipa> jgarzik: 210000+ monster confirmed
4329 2013-03-25 20:51:21 nus- has joined
4330 2013-03-25 20:52:14 <gmaxwell> sipa: just convert the confirmation count to tons of tnt.
4331 2013-03-25 20:52:21 stretchwarren has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
4332 2013-03-25 20:52:54 <sipa> gmaxwell: at one point does one reach tsar bomba confirmed?
4333 2013-03-25 20:53:56 i2pRelay has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
4334 2013-03-25 20:54:27 <jouke> HOLY SHIT- confirmed
4335 2013-03-25 20:54:34 <jouke> I like that :)
4336 2013-03-25 20:55:41 <kjj> I wish I could mark txouts as unspendable in my wallet
4337 2013-03-25 20:56:10 <jouke> Hmm, I thought I read that that is possible.
4338 2013-03-25 20:56:15 <kjj> my oldest is only 75421 confirmations, and that'll get swept up on some random transaction soon, no doubt
4339 2013-03-25 20:57:44 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
4340 2013-03-25 20:58:06 coinners has joined
4341 2013-03-25 20:58:19 <MC1984_> tsar bomba confirmed?
4342 2013-03-25 20:58:21 <gmaxwell> At 110 MH/j, block 1 takes 1972 ton TNT to reverse... we've got a ways to go for TSAR confirmed.
4343 2013-03-25 20:58:24 <kadoban> kjj: electrum and i'm sure some other clients can do stuff like that
4344 2013-03-25 20:58:29 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4345 2013-03-25 20:58:41 <MC1984_> how much chainwork equates to 50 megatonnes tnt?
4346 2013-03-25 20:59:06 <kjj> kadoban: I might just export that privkey, and then see if pywallet can delete it
4347 2013-03-25 20:59:20 <MC1984_> oh gmaxwell
4348 2013-03-25 20:59:21 <gmaxwell> MC1984_: I just said— all the work so far is equal to 1.972 kton TNT, assuming avalon efficiency mining.
4349 2013-03-25 20:59:49 <MC1984_> well aalons are brand new
4350 2013-03-25 20:59:58 <MC1984_> so rougly 10x it for the history of bitcoin?
4351 2013-03-25 21:00:02 <MC1984_> 20kt
4352 2013-03-25 21:00:05 <MC1984_> not bad
4353 2013-03-25 21:00:22 <kjj> heh.  Hiroshima
4354 2013-03-25 21:00:40 <MC1984_> BITCOIN POWERD BY HIROSHIMA
4355 2013-03-25 21:00:47 <MC1984_> its not the best marketing line
4356 2013-03-25 21:00:53 <gmaxwell> MC1984_: huh? I mean right now an avalon farm supplied with 8253189777448 joules of energy could rewrite the whole chain.
4357 2013-03-25 21:01:28 <MC1984_> gmaxwell oh i was talking about how much evergy has been put into the chain so far
4358 2013-03-25 21:01:32 <MC1984_> isnt it the same thing
4359 2013-03-25 21:02:05 <gmaxwell> Apparently this is a little less energy than carried in a in a Boeing 747-100B aircraft at max fuel capacity 0_o
4360 2013-03-25 21:02:10 <gmaxwell> er sorry, a little more.
4361 2013-03-25 21:02:25 <MC1984_> so what youre saying is
4362 2013-03-25 21:02:28 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
4363 2013-03-25 21:02:30 <MC1984_> bitcoin did 9/11?
4364 2013-03-25 21:02:51 <gmaxwell> "the attackers crashed a 747 into our blockchain and knocked the whole thing down!"
4365 2013-03-25 21:02:51 <MC1984_> this is still not good marketing guys
4366 2013-03-25 21:02:53 caedes has joined
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4368 2013-03-25 21:02:54 caedes has joined
4369 2013-03-25 21:03:11 <jouke> lmao @ MC1984_
4370 2013-03-25 21:03:22 <jouke> still not good marketing :D
4371 2013-03-25 21:04:53 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4372 2013-03-25 21:05:12 john5223 has joined
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4375 2013-03-25 21:05:56 grau has joined
4376 2013-03-25 21:06:08 CaptainBlaze has quit (Quit: CaptainBlaze)
4377 2013-03-25 21:06:37 CaptainBlaze has joined
4378 2013-03-25 21:07:54 genBTC has joined
4379 2013-03-25 21:08:07 TD has joined
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4381 2013-03-25 21:08:15 <flyingkiwiguy> Bitcoin mining - a rounding error on the voltage drop of high tension eletrical power transmission
4382 2013-03-25 21:08:16 <genBTC> hey guys... check out http://blockchain.info/unconfirmed-transactions <-- huge backlog 1400KB and 50BTC in fees waiting to be processed
4383 2013-03-25 21:08:35 <genBTC> yet 50BTC and BTCGuild just found blocks and only created 145 and 131KB blocks
4384 2013-03-25 21:08:49 <genBTC> and some random miner just found a block and only created a 43KB block
4385 2013-03-25 21:09:10 <genBTC> why is this happening with such a huge backlog of "Fee" transactions (total 50BTC in fees alone)
4386 2013-03-25 21:09:22 ikbenwouter has joined
4387 2013-03-25 21:09:24 <kjj> are all of the fee transactions valid?
4388 2013-03-25 21:09:24 <warren> genBTC: p2pool just found a block BITCOIN BLOCK FOUND by 1CTgYxMTY5j6SLytKeMsBWAXuUc6yNKcAe! http://blockexplorer.com/block/00000000000000f55474f6eaa7266abf14219d0ee94362b5e65854a454b1bd2d
4389 2013-03-25 21:09:29 <genBTC> yes
4390 2013-03-25 21:09:32 <TD> i see 0.26 btc in fees
4391 2013-03-25 21:09:38 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4392 2013-03-25 21:09:53 <genBTC> warren: yes thats the one. why only 44KB
4393 2013-03-25 21:10:00 <genBTC> if theres so many more transactions that could make them more money
4394 2013-03-25 21:10:07 <TD> probably a lot of those transactions are very old
4395 2013-03-25 21:10:16 <TD> and the miner who found the block hadn't seen the broadcasts
4396 2013-03-25 21:10:28 <warren> genBTC: each p2pool user runs their own bitcoind, so you'd have to ask whoever is 1CTgYxMTY5j6SLytKeMsBWAXuUc6yNKcAe!
4397 2013-03-25 21:10:37 <genBTC> we're talking about big mining pools here. 50BTC, BTCGuild and P2Pool
4398 2013-03-25 21:10:42 <TD> also it was only 2 mins difference
4399 2013-03-25 21:10:44 <genBTC> ok.
4400 2013-03-25 21:10:45 <MC1984_> genBTC small blocks propagate faster
4401 2013-03-25 21:10:47 <TD> p2pool users maintain their own mempools
4402 2013-03-25 21:10:50 <MC1984_> its a leak in the model
4403 2013-03-25 21:11:17 <genBTC> nobody else thinks this is strange? that valid+fee transactions are being left in the unconfirmed backlog queue ?
4404 2013-03-25 21:11:18 <TD> if there's only a few minutes between blocks then you'd expect them to be smaller. the blockchain.info view doesn't show you the mempool sliced by time
4405 2013-03-25 21:11:26 <warren> perhaps this user restarted bitcoind recently and their mempool wouldn't have much
4406 2013-03-25 21:11:28 <TD> no i think it's expected given how the software works today
4407 2013-03-25 21:11:30 <genBTC> TD: check unconfirmed though. theyve been there for a while
4408 2013-03-25 21:11:44 <TD> yeah, exactly. probably they don't have enough priority to get included yet
4409 2013-03-25 21:12:07 <jouke> !bitcoin
4410 2013-03-25 21:12:08 <gribble> I do not know about 'bitcoin', but I do know about these similar topics: 'freebitcoins'
4411 2013-03-25 21:12:20 <TD> nodes don't sync up their mempools currently as there's no formal limit on the size
4412 2013-03-25 21:12:24 <CodeShark> !freebitcoins
4413 2013-03-25 21:12:25 <gribble> Get some free bitcoins to play with at https://freebitcoins.appspot.com/
4414 2013-03-25 21:12:25 <TD> it'll get fixed at some point
4415 2013-03-25 21:12:31 <Diablo-D3> !ticker
4416 2013-03-25 21:12:33 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 76.00000, Best ask: 76.18999, Bid-ask spread: 0.18999, Last trade: 76.19000, 24 hour volume: 77538.37902122, 24 hour low: 69.51777, 24 hour high: 78.00000, 24 hour vwap: 74.00669
4417 2013-03-25 21:12:37 <Diablo-D3> thats just what all over the place.
4418 2013-03-25 21:12:38 <genBTC> so you don't think that anything strange is going on besides normal activity of bitcoin ?
4419 2013-03-25 21:12:42 <TD> right
4420 2013-03-25 21:12:46 protus has quit (Quit: protus)
4421 2013-03-25 21:12:55 <TD> with better analytics tools we could analyze why they aren't being included
4422 2013-03-25 21:12:58 <TD> but nobody has written such a tool
4423 2013-03-25 21:13:09 <genBTC> TD: you don't think this TX : 82501 bytes has broken it ?
4424 2013-03-25 21:13:15 <Diablo-D3> [04:49:36] <genBTC> nobody else thinks this is strange? that valid+fee transactions are being left in the unconfirmed backlog queue ?
4425 2013-03-25 21:13:23 <Diablo-D3> is it because of the patch that fixed 0.7.x?
4426 2013-03-25 21:13:28 <Diablo-D3> to limit block size?
4427 2013-03-25 21:13:38 <genBTC> no because the blocks are very small
4428 2013-03-25 21:13:41 <genBTC> check the website.
4429 2013-03-25 21:13:49 <Diablo-D3> weird.
4430 2013-03-25 21:13:55 rowit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
4431 2013-03-25 21:13:59 <TD> genBTC: also the blockchain site seems to be inconsistent right now, maybe a load balancing artifact. whether there are 50btc in fees or not changes when you reload
4432 2013-03-25 21:14:23 <TD> genBTC: why would an 82kb tx break anything?
4433 2013-03-25 21:14:24 keystroke has joined
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4435 2013-03-25 21:14:24 keystroke has joined
4436 2013-03-25 21:14:28 <genBTC> idk
4437 2013-03-25 21:14:39 <genBTC> omfg
4438 2013-03-25 21:14:46 <genBTC> it just dropped to 0.14KB
4439 2013-03-25 21:14:49 <genBTC> i mean 0.41 BTC in fees
4440 2013-03-25 21:15:00 <TD> like i said, blockchain.info is several servers and it appears they're out of sync
4441 2013-03-25 21:15:04 <gfawkes> omg things are working like they're supposed to?
4442 2013-03-25 21:15:05 <genBTC> that was my main concern with all this. blockchain.info was screwing up!
4443 2013-03-25 21:15:08 <genBTC> YE!
4444 2013-03-25 21:15:14 <gfawkes> :)
4445 2013-03-25 21:15:25 <genBTC> wonderful
4446 2013-03-25 21:15:28 <genBTC> i was getting really scared.
4447 2013-03-25 21:15:29 <MC1984_> b.i is down for me
4448 2013-03-25 21:15:31 <TD> if you want to, you could write a program that connects to the b.i nodes and then downloads their memory pools
4449 2013-03-25 21:15:42 <TD> and then calculates the priorities of each transaction and visualizes it
4450 2013-03-25 21:15:59 <genBTC> sounds like a big project
4451 2013-03-25 21:16:21 <TD> nah. a few days work to do something really nice, if you know what you're doing
4452 2013-03-25 21:16:32 <TD> i started on one already actually, using bitcoinj + javafx as it has some nice charting components
4453 2013-03-25 21:16:34 <genBTC> i don't :)
4454 2013-03-25 21:16:37 <TD> but then i remembered i had more important things to do ....
4455 2013-03-25 21:17:04 <TD> well, if you're looking for work :)
4456 2013-03-25 21:17:18 <CodeShark> the mean block size for the last 1000 blocks is 131 KiB
4457 2013-03-25 21:17:26 <genBTC> im working on another project
4458 2013-03-25 21:17:30 n5 has joined
4459 2013-03-25 21:17:32 <genBTC> https://github.com/genbtc/trader.python/
4460 2013-03-25 21:17:34 alphaguru has quit ()
4461 2013-03-25 21:17:53 <TD> ok
4462 2013-03-25 21:18:41 <CodeShark> I've got a memory pool database :)
4463 2013-03-25 21:18:46 <genBTC> check out this other guys program: http://i.imgur.com/q2ZTb5y.png
4464 2013-03-25 21:18:49 <CodeShark> which I could query to generate charts and stuff
4465 2013-03-25 21:18:54 <genBTC> candlesticks in ncurses  :)
4466 2013-03-25 21:19:32 <CodeShark> how do candlesticks work in btc, since it's open 24/7? there are no market opens and closes
4467 2013-03-25 21:19:37 <genBTC> CodeShark: all you need now is a webpage with it, and a bunch of ads = profit :)
4468 2013-03-25 21:19:46 <genBTC> CodeShark: they just define them as 15 minute periods
4469 2013-03-25 21:19:48 <kjj> CodeShark: arbitrary boundaries
4470 2013-03-25 21:20:15 <genBTC> so this chart shows 96 candles
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4479 2013-03-25 21:26:33 parasciidic has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
4480 2013-03-25 21:26:57 <xaptah> genBTC: where is this available ? http://i.imgur.com/q2ZTb5y.png
4481 2013-03-25 21:27:04 xaptah is now known as kaptah
4482 2013-03-25 21:28:00 rowit has joined
4483 2013-03-25 21:29:26 <kaptah> found it
4484 2013-03-25 21:31:34 mria has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
4485 2013-03-25 21:32:06 <Kinnard> Sipa: Thanks for your help!
4486 2013-03-25 21:33:01 toffoo has quit ()
4487 2013-03-25 21:35:05 FredEE has joined
4488 2013-03-25 21:35:33 RoboTeddy has joined
4489 2013-03-25 21:37:49 deadweasel has quit (Quit: leaving)
4490 2013-03-25 21:37:56 Ashaman has quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
4491 2013-03-25 21:38:39 TradeFortress has joined
4492 2013-03-25 21:39:17 Ashaman has joined
4493 2013-03-25 21:40:41 <bakingbread> is official support available here?
4494 2013-03-25 21:40:48 MiningBuddy- is now known as MiningBuddy
4495 2013-03-25 21:40:48 MiningBuddy has quit (Changing host)
4496 2013-03-25 21:40:48 MiningBuddy has joined
4497 2013-03-25 21:40:52 <bakingbread> or it's a "fan" channel?
4498 2013-03-25 21:41:16 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
4499 2013-03-25 21:41:41 <bakingbread> oops
4500 2013-03-25 21:41:44 <bakingbread> wront window
4501 2013-03-25 21:42:53 <TradeFortress> what does "getblocks stopping at limit XXXX" mean
4502 2013-03-25 21:43:04 <TradeFortress> why is bitcoind exiting during the blockchain download
4503 2013-03-25 21:44:21 <sipa> unless it runs out of disk space, it shouldn't
4504 2013-03-25 21:44:30 <gmaxwell> TradeFortress: exiting?
4505 2013-03-25 21:44:44 <gmaxwell> sipa: or address space. :-/
4506 2013-03-25 21:45:07 <TradeFortress> but that's on debug.log
4507 2013-03-25 21:45:15 <TradeFortress> gmaxwell, exiting as I come back later and see bitcoind no longer running
4508 2013-03-25 21:45:41 bernard75 has quit ()
4509 2013-03-25 21:45:43 <gmaxwell> TradeFortress: whats the very last thing in the debug.log? and what kind of system is this?
4510 2013-03-25 21:46:52 <TradeFortress> gmaxwell: Linode 1024
4511 2013-03-25 21:47:16 <CodeShark> is BitcoinPullTester running in batch? it no longer tests each push to the branch?
4512 2013-03-25 21:47:20 <TradeFortress> last thing: received getdata
4513 2013-03-25 21:48:02 <BlueMatt> CodeShark: it was shutdown for quite a while
4514 2013-03-25 21:48:17 <gmaxwell> TradeFortress: is your bitcoind accepting connections?
4515 2013-03-25 21:48:35 <BlueMatt> CodeShark: its still catching back up
4516 2013-03-25 21:49:03 xenesis has quit (Quit: xenesis)
4517 2013-03-25 21:49:34 <CodeShark> BlueMatt: how many jobs are still in the queue?
4518 2013-03-25 21:49:55 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4519 2013-03-25 21:50:23 <BlueMatt> it doesng have a queue...it just goes through the list of pulls as it has time
4520 2013-03-25 21:50:31 impulse has joined
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4522 2013-03-25 21:50:57 Guest4950 is now known as novusordo
4523 2013-03-25 21:51:04 novusordo has quit (Changing host)
4524 2013-03-25 21:51:04 novusordo has joined
4525 2013-03-25 21:51:34 <CodeShark> does it go through them in any particular order?
4526 2013-03-25 21:52:08 c00w has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4527 2013-03-25 21:52:22 TradeFortress has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
4528 2013-03-25 21:52:22 <BlueMatt> yea, its the same as the order it appears on github
4529 2013-03-25 21:52:32 <BlueMatt> though that may change if github changes its api
4530 2013-03-25 21:52:39 <BlueMatt> or did change its api
4531 2013-03-25 21:53:08 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
4532 2013-03-25 21:54:07 parasciidic has joined
4533 2013-03-25 21:54:23 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
4534 2013-03-25 21:54:37 <CodeShark> so it prioritizes the more recent pull requests, not the most recent commits to any pull request, right?
4535 2013-03-25 21:54:45 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
4536 2013-03-25 21:54:47 <BlueMatt> uhh...I think so
4537 2013-03-25 21:54:53 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
4538 2013-03-25 21:55:14 <BlueMatt> it doesnt really prioritize, it just goes through the list, testing whats new, then repeats
4539 2013-03-25 21:55:24 <bitnumus> ok, so my client is still playing up
4540 2013-03-25 21:55:34 <bitnumus> it doesnt always send transactions, and says 'offline' in details
4541 2013-03-25 21:56:31 randy-waterhouse has joined
4542 2013-03-25 21:56:52 debiantoruser has joined
4543 2013-03-25 21:57:16 <bitnumus> right now a transaction says  'Status: 0/unconfirmed' and has done for 15minutes
4544 2013-03-25 21:57:20 <CodeShark> would it be difficult to get it to check for the most recent commit to any pull request that has not yet been tested after finishing each job and doing that one?
4545 2013-03-25 21:57:25 <bitnumus> not broadcasting
4546 2013-03-25 21:57:36 <CodeShark> or perhaps that wouldn't make sense
4547 2013-03-25 21:57:49 <CodeShark> I guess it would make more sense to do them in the order they were committed
4548 2013-03-25 21:57:58 <CodeShark> the oldest commit that has not been yet tested
4549 2013-03-25 21:58:00 <sipa> bitnumus: are you synced up?
4550 2013-03-25 21:58:12 <bitnumus> yea
4551 2013-03-25 21:58:17 <sipa> then just wait
4552 2013-03-25 21:58:20 Hasimir- is now known as Hasimir
4553 2013-03-25 21:58:20 Hasimir has quit (Changing host)
4554 2013-03-25 21:58:20 Hasimir has joined
4555 2013-03-25 21:58:21 <bitnumus> do you know what i mean by the 'grey square' ?
4556 2013-03-25 21:58:29 eipeace_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
4557 2013-03-25 21:58:34 <randy-waterhouse> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Weak-keys-in-NetBSD-1829336.html
4558 2013-03-25 21:58:40 <randy-waterhouse> mind your brackets
4559 2013-03-25 21:58:46 <bitnumus> sipa, no i have to restart client for it to do anything, then it works right away.
4560 2013-03-25 21:58:55 <BlueMatt> CodeShark: its going as fast as it can...when it gets back around to your pull it will test whatever is the head of that pull (what would be master if it were pulled)
4561 2013-03-25 21:59:00 ThomasV has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
4562 2013-03-25 21:59:06 <sipa> bitnumus: ?
4563 2013-03-25 21:59:20 <bitnumus> yes sipa thats how i feel
4564 2013-03-25 21:59:34 <sipa> what do you mean "for it to do anything" ?
4565 2013-03-25 21:59:40 <bitnumus> what else can i say? it happens as i've explain
4566 2013-03-25 21:59:51 <bitnumus> for it to broadcast the transaction
4567 2013-03-25 22:00:03 <bitnumus> grey square - says in details 'offline'
4568 2013-03-25 22:00:09 <sipa> it automatically broadcasts on average every half an hour
4569 2013-03-25 22:00:11 <bitnumus> i restart client and it broadcasts it instantly
4570 2013-03-25 22:00:13 <bitnumus> it never used to do this .
4571 2013-03-25 22:00:21 <bitnumus> half an hour ?? :O
4572 2013-03-25 22:00:33 <sipa> with randomized intervals
4573 2013-03-25 22:00:36 <bitnumus> so just wait half an hour to send a transaction ?
4574 2013-03-25 22:00:40 <sipa> as long as it's not confirmed
4575 2013-03-25 22:00:49 <sipa> when you make a transaction it's also sent immediately
4576 2013-03-25 22:00:51 <bitnumus> bitpay has a 15minute limit ..
4577 2013-03-25 22:00:55 ikbenwouter has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4578 2013-03-25 22:01:18 <sipa> after that, every 15-30 minutes it's broadcast again, until it gets confirmed
4579 2013-03-25 22:01:27 B0g4r7 has joined
4580 2013-03-25 22:01:38 <bitnumus> well maybe this time i sent it before it synced which might explain that
4581 2013-03-25 22:01:46 <bitnumus> but not the grey square, and the 'offline'
4582 2013-03-25 22:01:50 <CodeShark> BlueMatt: it would be neat to have a way of monitoring where it's at at any given moment :)
4583 2013-03-25 22:02:26 <CodeShark> I guess it would be possible to do that with the github API
4584 2013-03-25 22:02:59 <rdponticelli> bitnumus: It should send it anyway if you aren't synced, maybe you wasn't connected?
4585 2013-03-25 22:03:15 <bitnumus> rdponticelli, what does 'connected' mean, i had 8 connections to the network
4586 2013-03-25 22:03:40 <bitnumus> nobody seems bothered its quite funny :)
4587 2013-03-25 22:03:47 <BlueMatt> CodeShark: manually sort http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/ in date order?
4588 2013-03-25 22:03:49 <sipa> bitnumus: just wait, it will confirm
4589 2013-03-25 22:03:50 <bitnumus> behaviour i've not seen in 2 years
4590 2013-03-25 22:03:50 <rdponticelli> bitnumus: When you send the transaction you already had those 8 connections?
4591 2013-03-25 22:04:05 <CodeShark> oh, thanks, BlueMatt :)
4592 2013-03-25 22:04:08 <CodeShark> yeah, lol
4593 2013-03-25 22:04:08 <bitnumus> but what about the 'offline' and grey square thats normal ?
4594 2013-03-25 22:04:08 <BlueMatt> CodeShark: "meh" its usually not backed up, its just because it was down for a while
4595 2013-03-25 22:04:21 <BlueMatt> CodeShark: itl catch back up in a day or two
4596 2013-03-25 22:04:23 <bitnumus> i left that for probably 20minutes before or more and it did nothing
4597 2013-03-25 22:04:37 <bitnumus> as soon as i restart client it goes to 'unconfirmed'
4598 2013-03-25 22:04:57 <sipa> bitnumus: oh, now i understand
4599 2013-03-25 22:04:58 <bitnumus> only happened in last few months and its very regular
4600 2013-03-25 22:05:09 <sipa> bitnumus: it tracks from how many peers it has seen the transaction come back
4601 2013-03-25 22:05:19 <sipa> bitnumus: but only does so while it's running
4602 2013-03-25 22:05:23 Anduck has joined
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4604 2013-03-25 22:05:23 Anduck has joined
4605 2013-03-25 22:05:25 donpdonp has quit (Changing host)
4606 2013-03-25 22:05:25 donpdonp has joined
4607 2013-03-25 22:05:44 <sipa> bitnumus: offline means that it hasn't seen it come back yet, so probably it wasn't really broadcast
4608 2013-03-25 22:06:02 <sipa> bitnumus: if you quit and restart, it doesn't track it anyway so just says unconfirmed
4609 2013-03-25 22:06:03 guruvan_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4610 2013-03-25 22:06:20 <sipa> so really, just wait
4611 2013-03-25 22:06:23 <bitnumus> whats with the grey square graphic, it looks like something failed.
4612 2013-03-25 22:06:38 <sipa> no idea, i don't use the Qt client
4613 2013-03-25 22:06:39 <bitnumus> again, i never see this before until a few months ago, is it new?
4614 2013-03-25 22:06:41 guruvan_ has joined
4615 2013-03-25 22:06:46 eipeace_ has joined
4616 2013-03-25 22:06:50 holorga_ has joined
4617 2013-03-25 22:07:22 <CodeShark> is there a simple way to search pull requests by commit hash on github?
4618 2013-03-25 22:07:28 <bitnumus> anyone else care to explain the 'looks like something went wrong here' graphic?
4619 2013-03-25 22:07:40 <CodeShark> I guess I should ask that in #github
4620 2013-03-25 22:08:48 <rdponticelli> CodeShark: Adding the origin-pull as remote should do it
4621 2013-03-25 22:09:20 btcur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
4622 2013-03-25 22:09:36 techlife has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
4623 2013-03-25 22:10:12 <rdponticelli> Oh, unless you mean in the web...
4624 2013-03-25 22:10:24 ripshy has joined
4625 2013-03-25 22:10:57 techlife has joined
4626 2013-03-25 22:11:16 i2pRelay has joined
4627 2013-03-25 22:11:59 whiterabbit has joined
4628 2013-03-25 22:12:36 <sipa> bitnumus: is it possible you did a double spend?
4629 2013-03-25 22:12:51 <sipa> bitnumus: for example by copying a wallet and spending from separate places?
4630 2013-03-25 22:13:11 <bitnumus> nope
4631 2013-03-25 22:13:21 <rdponticelli> bitnumus: Is your clock accurate? And your timezone?
4632 2013-03-25 22:13:34 <bitnumus> yup that i know of
4633 2013-03-25 22:13:48 <bitnumus> thought i do copy this wallet, i havent laoded it and spent elsewhere, and there is a larger balance than what i am sending
4634 2013-03-25 22:13:49 remotemass has joined
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4636 2013-03-25 22:13:55 whiterabbit is now known as wrabbit
4637 2013-03-25 22:14:02 <sipa> bitnumus: ok
4638 2013-03-25 22:14:30 <bitnumus> as i said nothing out of the ordinary
4639 2013-03-25 22:14:32 <sipa> bitnumus: balance doesn't matter though; if you spend from two places, and one client doesn't know about a transaction from the other, it may result in a double spend
4640 2013-03-25 22:14:35 <sipa> anyway
4641 2013-03-25 22:14:37 <bitnumus> and i've only experiencd this for a few months
4642 2013-03-25 22:14:40 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4643 2013-03-25 22:14:56 <sipa> experienced what?
4644 2013-03-25 22:14:57 <remotemass> is the file allocators.cpp missing. I can only find allocators.h
4645 2013-03-25 22:15:04 <remotemass> ?
4646 2013-03-25 22:15:08 <sipa> remotemass: there is no .cpp for that
4647 2013-03-25 22:15:14 <remotemass> ok
4648 2013-03-25 22:15:56 <bitnumus> experienced this difference in operation
4649 2013-03-25 22:15:56 <sipa> bitnumus: this is not the first time you see transactions marked as offline?
4650 2013-03-25 22:16:06 <bitnumus> i've never ever seen this grey box or 'offline' before
4651 2013-03-25 22:16:19 <bitnumus> yes in 2 years
4652 2013-03-25 22:16:24 <bitnumus> or i've not noticed it, dont see how.
4653 2013-03-25 22:16:42 <bitnumus> usually its a question mark
4654 2013-03-25 22:16:50 <bitnumus> and says 0/unconfirmed
4655 2013-03-25 22:16:56 darinmorrison has joined
4656 2013-03-25 22:16:56 <sipa> well there can be any number of reason why the initial broadcast didn't work
4657 2013-03-25 22:17:00 <sipa> no need to worry about it
4658 2013-03-25 22:17:06 BenderCoin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4659 2013-03-25 22:17:18 <bitnumus> you say that, next time i get that grey box and im not in a rush, ill leave it for 35minutes
4660 2013-03-25 22:17:26 <bitnumus> pretty sure i left it a long while last time and nothing happened.
4661 2013-03-25 22:17:56 <bitnumus> when did i first msg in this chan today if you have timestamps on ?
4662 2013-03-25 22:18:05 <bitnumus> compare to know, how long? :P
4663 2013-03-25 22:18:41 <sipa> 23 minutes
4664 2013-03-25 22:18:53 <sipa> but was the transaction not yet broadcast at all?
4665 2013-03-25 22:18:55 <bitnumus> ok ill be back in 10
4666 2013-03-25 22:18:57 <sipa> can you tell me the txid?
4667 2013-03-25 22:18:59 <bitnumus> no its not.
4668 2013-03-25 22:19:01 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4669 2013-03-25 22:19:08 Guest70160 has quit ()
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4671 2013-03-25 22:19:13 cypher___ is now known as cypher
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4676 2013-03-25 22:20:39 Kinnard has quit (Quit: Page closed)
4677 2013-03-25 22:21:21 Transisto has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
4678 2013-03-25 22:21:35 Sealy has joined
4679 2013-03-25 22:21:39 <CodeShark> rdponticelli: I'd rather not have to add each remote
4680 2013-03-25 22:21:49 xavier23 has quit (Quit: xavier23)
4681 2013-03-25 22:22:12 <rdponticelli> CodeShark: Not each
4682 2013-03-25 22:23:20 <CodeShark> rdponticelli: basically, I want to be able to see to which pull request a particular commit hash belongs to
4683 2013-03-25 22:23:38 boycey has joined
4684 2013-03-25 22:24:17 <boycey> Hi
4685 2013-03-25 22:26:43 mappum has joined
4686 2013-03-25 22:26:44 <boycey> just a noob here with a question about bitcoin
4687 2013-03-25 22:26:55 <boycey> about the blocks
4688 2013-03-25 22:27:02 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4689 2013-03-25 22:27:07 <boycey> each block contains multiple transaction chains, each transaction chain represents 1 coin
4690 2013-03-25 22:27:13 <sipa> no
4691 2013-03-25 22:27:16 <remotemass> Can anyone please explain what is a bloom filter?
4692 2013-03-25 22:27:18 <boycey> so what happens when a fraction of a coin is spent? is a new transaction chain created for the fraction?
4693 2013-03-25 22:27:22 <sipa> remotemass: wikipedia will help more
4694 2013-03-25 22:27:31 <sipa> boycey: you're misunderstanding several things
4695 2013-03-25 22:27:32 i2pRelay has joined
4696 2013-03-25 22:27:52 <boycey> sipa: thanks for answering
4697 2013-03-25 22:28:05 <boycey> sipa: sorry if i don't understand - It's first time looking at the paper
4698 2013-03-25 22:28:12 <sipa> boycey: first of all, coins have arbitrary values (anything between 1 satoshi and 21M bitcoin)
4699 2013-03-25 22:28:19 <sipa> boycey: each coin is assigned to an address
4700 2013-03-25 22:28:22 zooko has joined
4701 2013-03-25 22:28:56 whizter has quit ()
4702 2013-03-25 22:29:03 <boycey> sipa: right
4703 2013-03-25 22:29:09 Transisto has joined
4704 2013-03-25 22:29:09 Transisto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4705 2013-03-25 22:29:19 Transisto has joined
4706 2013-03-25 22:29:28 <sipa> boycey: and transactions a) consume 1 or more coins  b) produce 1 or more new coins (of potentially different values, but not more in total than the value of the consumed coins) and  c) assigns those new coins to addresses (which may or may not be the same as the former ones)
4707 2013-03-25 22:29:41 oleganza has joined
4708 2013-03-25 22:29:55 <sipa> so there is something like a chain of transactions in the history of a coin, but it's not just a line
4709 2013-03-25 22:30:05 <sipa> coins can get split and merged with others arbitrarily
4710 2013-03-25 22:30:31 <sipa> also, a coin is always consumed entirely
4711 2013-03-25 22:30:34 Ogig has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4712 2013-03-25 22:30:46 <sipa> if 1 have a 5 BTC coin in my wallet, and i want to pay you 2 BTC
4713 2013-03-25 22:31:24 <gonffen> do all coins start as block_reward_size ?
4714 2013-03-25 22:31:25 <sipa> then i create a transaction that consumes the 5 BTC one, and creates two new ones from it: a 2 BTC one (that gets assigned to your address), and a 3 BTC one that gets assigned to a _new_ address of my own (a so called change)
4715 2013-03-25 22:31:32 <CodeShark> sipa: coin = txout?
4716 2013-03-25 22:31:38 <sipa> CodeShark: yeah
4717 2013-03-25 22:32:03 <rdponticelli> CodeShark: If you add a remote for refs/pull/* it will track the pulls
4718 2013-03-25 22:32:18 <CodeShark> rdponticelli: ah, thanks
4719 2013-03-25 22:32:20 <sipa> boycey: clear?
4720 2013-03-25 22:32:53 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
4721 2013-03-25 22:33:10 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
4722 2013-03-25 22:33:12 Ogig has joined
4723 2013-03-25 22:33:17 <boycey> sipa: right
4724 2013-03-25 22:33:23 <boycey> sipa: it's clear i think
4725 2013-03-25 22:33:47 <remotemass> can you get the change in a different address? I thought it would always bounce back to the payer address doing the transaction
4726 2013-03-25 22:33:55 <boycey> sipa: and if (b) coins produced is less than (a), then thats the transaction fee?
4727 2013-03-25 22:34:42 <sipa> boycey: bingo
4728 2013-03-25 22:34:55 <sipa> remotemass: change doesn't exist at the protocol level
4729 2013-03-25 22:35:02 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4730 2013-03-25 22:35:09 <sipa> remotemass: it's an explicit output of the transaction your own client generates
4731 2013-03-25 22:35:40 <sipa> so if your client chooses to use the same address for that, so be it (some do)
4732 2013-03-25 22:35:46 i2pRelay has joined
4733 2013-03-25 22:35:47 <sipa> the reference client doesn't for example
4734 2013-03-25 22:36:00 <sipa> it always uses a fresh address for that
4735 2013-03-25 22:36:11 <boycey> sipa: sorry , just 1 question
4736 2013-03-25 22:36:46 <boycey> sipa: so every time i make a transaction from my address, the entire contents of my address is 'transacted' (i.e. included in a transaction/block) , even if I'm only sending a small part of it?
4737 2013-03-25 22:36:56 <sipa> boycey: no
4738 2013-03-25 22:37:05 <sipa> boycey: addresses don't exist at the protocol level, only coins
4739 2013-03-25 22:37:21 <boycey> sipa: ok
4740 2013-03-25 22:37:22 <sipa> forget about balances, it is how wallets make you look at the system, but not how it works internally
4741 2013-03-25 22:37:41 lodse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4742 2013-03-25 22:37:53 <sipa> the 'listunspent' RPC call can tell you the exact coins you have in your wallet, but it's just easier to just see the sum
4743 2013-03-25 22:37:55 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4744 2013-03-25 22:38:18 <sipa> it's really very much like physical wallets
4745 2013-03-25 22:38:22 cads has joined
4746 2013-03-25 22:38:27 <sipa> if i give you a 2 BTC coin, you have a 2 BTC coin
4747 2013-03-25 22:38:47 <boycey> sipa: ok
4748 2013-03-25 22:38:50 <sipa> if someone else sends you a 0.5 BTC coin to the same address for some reason, you have a 2 BTC coin and a 0.5 BTC
4749 2013-03-25 22:38:56 <boycey> sipa: and that's 1 transaction even though its 2 BTC
4750 2013-03-25 22:38:56 <sipa> the address doesn't matter at all
4751 2013-03-25 22:39:01 <sipa> yes
4752 2013-03-25 22:39:16 <sipa> 1 transaction can even modify hundreds of coins
4753 2013-03-25 22:39:32 <boycey> sipa: ok
4754 2013-03-25 22:39:34 <boycey> sipa: thanks
4755 2013-03-25 22:39:40 <boycey> sipa: thats really helpful
4756 2013-03-25 22:40:02 <boycey> sipa: i was just confused - in the paper they keep talking about coins
4757 2013-03-25 22:40:09 <boycey> sipa: its a bit confusing
4758 2013-03-25 22:40:22 <CodeShark> the term "coin" in this context could be confusing
4759 2013-03-25 22:40:25 <CodeShark> it's a little ambiguous
4760 2013-03-25 22:40:42 <boycey> sipa: yes…. lol
4761 2013-03-25 22:40:52 <sipa> boycey: the commonly accepted term for what i've been calling coin now is "unspent transaction output" or UTXO
4762 2013-03-25 22:41:03 <sipa> though the paper uses different terminology
4763 2013-03-25 22:41:17 <boycey> sipa: ok
4764 2013-03-25 22:41:29 <boycey> sipa: thats useful
4765 2013-03-25 22:42:01 <boycey> sipa: thanks
4766 2013-03-25 22:43:04 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4767 2013-03-25 22:43:36 i2pRelay has joined
4768 2013-03-25 22:45:14 <CodeShark> rdponticelli: "fatal: Invalid refspec '+refs/heads/*:refs/pull/*:refs/remotes/upstream/*'"
4769 2013-03-25 22:47:51 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
4770 2013-03-25 22:48:01 <rdponticelli> CodeShark: Do it in another remote...
4771 2013-03-25 22:48:02 tyn has joined
4772 2013-03-25 22:48:12 <rdponticelli> This is my line: fetch = +refs/pull/*:refs/remotes/origin-pull/*
4773 2013-03-25 22:48:39 pete79 has joined
4774 2013-03-25 22:49:08 <CodeShark> so get rid of the heads?
4775 2013-03-25 22:49:15 Exocyst has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4776 2013-03-25 22:49:18 <rdponticelli> Yeah
4777 2013-03-25 22:49:41 <rdponticelli> But, create other remote for this
4778 2013-03-25 22:49:46 <sipa> [remote "upstream-pull"] fetch = +refs/pull/*:refs/remotes/upstream-pull/* url = git@github.com:bitcoin/bitcoin.git
4779 2013-03-25 22:49:57 <CodeShark> yes, that's what I just did now
4780 2013-03-25 22:49:58 zooko has joined
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4786 2013-03-25 22:54:27 <CodeShark> ok, so all the refs have been downloaded - now what's the git command to find what pull request a particular commit belongs to?
4787 2013-03-25 22:55:01 BTC_Bear is now known as BTC_Bear|hbrntng
4788 2013-03-25 22:55:26 <sipa> i don't know whether there is
4789 2013-03-25 22:55:27 <CodeShark> or do I need to import all the branches, too?
4790 2013-03-25 22:55:34 zooko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4791 2013-03-25 22:55:58 <CodeShark> git branch --contains <hash>
4792 2013-03-25 22:56:06 <CodeShark> but I don't think that works unless I've got a local tracking branch
4793 2013-03-25 22:56:16 ilj has quit (Quit: Page closed)
4794 2013-03-25 22:56:23 RoboTeddy has joined
4795 2013-03-25 22:56:34 peddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4796 2013-03-25 22:56:42 <sipa> git branch -r --contains hash
4797 2013-03-25 22:56:58 <CodeShark> oh, nice :)
4798 2013-03-25 22:57:01 <CodeShark> voila
4799 2013-03-25 22:57:35 <CodeShark> thanks, guys :)
4800 2013-03-25 22:59:05 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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4805 2013-03-25 23:01:31 <remotemass> Have bloom filters been used since original version? If not in which version was it introduced?
4806 2013-03-25 23:01:31 RoboTedd_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4807 2013-03-25 23:01:32 Cory has quit ()
4808 2013-03-25 23:01:53 <nanotube> remotemass: since 0.8
4809 2013-03-25 23:02:02 RoboTeddy has joined
4810 2013-03-25 23:02:14 <sipa> remotemass: BIP 37 introduced them
4811 2013-03-25 23:02:29 <sipa> indeed, implemented since 0.8.0
4812 2013-03-25 23:03:17 <Diablo-D3> man
4813 2013-03-25 23:03:20 <Diablo-D3> bloom filters are so sexy
4814 2013-03-25 23:03:44 pale_fire has quit (Quit: pale_fire)
4815 2013-03-25 23:05:04 <remotemass> did you introduce it sipa?
4816 2013-03-25 23:05:19 <sipa> no
4817 2013-03-25 23:05:29 <sipa> i did help with one part of the specification
4818 2013-03-25 23:05:39 <sipa> (the encoding of the partial merkle tree)
4819 2013-03-25 23:05:54 <sipa> but most of the work was done by BlueMatt
4820 2013-03-25 23:06:01 <Luke-Jr> remotemass: note that Bitcoin-Qt does not itself use them, just provides them to peers
4821 2013-03-25 23:06:30 <remotemass> I see
4822 2013-03-25 23:07:25 <remotemass> could hash tables be used instead?
4823 2013-03-25 23:08:05 <sipa> a hash table is a data structures to map keys to values
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4838 2013-03-25 23:14:46 lukestokes is now known as lukestokes_away
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4840 2013-03-25 23:18:00 lukestokes_away is now known as lukestokes
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4845 2013-03-25 23:19:17 <MC1984_> wow theres 5 megabytes of unconfirmed txn
4846 2013-03-25 23:19:32 <Diablo-D3> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LrObZ_HZZU
4847 2013-03-25 23:19:37 <Diablo-D3> watch this video and pay close attention
4848 2013-03-25 23:19:43 denisx_ has joined
4849 2013-03-25 23:19:52 <Diablo-D3> I think I figured out how England is going to save itself from the collapse of the EU
4850 2013-03-25 23:20:01 <lianj> Diablo-D3: broken link…
4851 2013-03-25 23:20:30 <Diablo-D3> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LrObZ_HZZUc
4852 2013-03-25 23:20:34 pera has joined
4853 2013-03-25 23:21:29 <MC1984_> this better not be david ick leel shit
4854 2013-03-25 23:22:55 <MC1984_> "american finds out about the CoL"
4855 2013-03-25 23:22:55 <Diablo-D3> who?
4856 2013-03-25 23:22:59 <MC1984_> lolling myass off
4857 2013-03-25 23:23:13 <Diablo-D3> wait for the best part
4858 2013-03-25 23:23:34 <Diablo-D3> oh and it shows up again near the end even more hillariously
4859 2013-03-25 23:23:53 Muis_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
4860 2013-03-25 23:24:17 <MC1984_> bitcoin cameo
4861 2013-03-25 23:24:27 <MC1984_> is this supposed to bowl me off my chair or what
4862 2013-03-25 23:24:29 fishfish has joined
4863 2013-03-25 23:24:54 <Diablo-D3> MC1984_: watch the whole thing
4864 2013-03-25 23:25:13 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
4865 2013-03-25 23:25:13 denisx_ is now known as denisx
4866 2013-03-25 23:25:24 <MC1984_> i keep pausing it bause i have the attention span of a 3 year old hopped up on sugar sticks
4867 2013-03-25 23:26:25 <Diablo-D3> spoiler: the city of london is ran by freemasons who are manipulating bitcoin to amass wealth
4868 2013-03-25 23:26:32 maji has joined
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4870 2013-03-25 23:28:41 <remotemass> Diablo-D3: loved the video.
4871 2013-03-25 23:28:41 <MC1984_> theres real concerns about the CoL role in the financial markets tho
4872 2013-03-25 23:28:49 fishfish has quit (Client Quit)
4873 2013-03-25 23:28:58 <remotemass> Diablo-D3: thx for sharing
4874 2013-03-25 23:30:35 <Diablo-D3> MC1984_: well, the CoL not so much
4875 2013-03-25 23:31:00 <Diablo-D3> MC1984_: canary warf as sorta become the wall street of london
4876 2013-03-25 23:31:49 <MC1984_> the CoL is the only plae in the uk and maybe the world where corporations have the same actual voting rights as natural persons
4877 2013-03-25 23:31:53 chao_ has joined
4878 2013-03-25 23:31:56 <MC1984_> nuff said about that
4879 2013-03-25 23:31:58 zooko has joined
4880 2013-03-25 23:32:10 <Diablo-D3> MC1984_: yes BUT
4881 2013-03-25 23:32:13 <Diablo-D3> such a thing is not new
4882 2013-03-25 23:32:30 <Diablo-D3> the netherlands may have actually done it right
4883 2013-03-25 23:33:51 <Diablo-D3> er
4884 2013-03-25 23:33:53 <Diablo-D3> done it first
4885 2013-03-25 23:33:59 <Diablo-D3> nothing is right about that
4886 2013-03-25 23:34:36 <MC1984_> well they dont do it now right
4887 2013-03-25 23:34:50 <MC1984_> whereas the col has been hustlin for a millenia
4888 2013-03-25 23:36:00 <Diablo-D3> MC1984_: well
4889 2013-03-25 23:36:04 <Diablo-D3> the netherlands invented the stock market
4890 2013-03-25 23:36:21 <Diablo-D3> and they had a company that issued stock before such a stock market existed…. and paid the first dividends ever.
4891 2013-03-25 23:36:33 <MC1984_> i thought that was the east idia company
4892 2013-03-25 23:36:34 bakingbread has quit (Quit: quit)
4893 2013-03-25 23:36:37 <Diablo-D3> and said company had a seat on their parlament
4894 2013-03-25 23:36:46 <Diablo-D3> MC1984_: yes, but its not the BRITISH east india company
4895 2013-03-25 23:36:57 <Diablo-D3> the british got pissed off and made their own
4896 2013-03-25 23:37:01 <Diablo-D3> and wasnt nearly as cool
4897 2013-03-25 23:38:05 <sipa> Vereenigde Oostindische Compagnie!
4898 2013-03-25 23:38:35 <sipa> doesn't sound english to me
4899 2013-03-25 23:38:43 bakingbread has joined
4900 2013-03-25 23:39:05 <CodeShark> thee dooble voowels beetrai eet is dootch
4901 2013-03-25 23:39:45 <sipa> actually, in current dutch it'd be written verenigde oost-indische compagnie
4902 2013-03-25 23:40:05 Boydy has joined
4903 2013-03-25 23:40:44 <etotheipi__> how do you specify a bitcoind/Bitcoin-Qt instance in Windows using "-datadir=path" where path has spaces ?
4904 2013-03-25 23:40:47 <Diablo-D3> the dutch east india company was founded in 1602
4905 2013-03-25 23:40:57 <Diablo-D3> Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie
4906 2013-03-25 23:41:06 <Diablo-D3> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_India_Company
4907 2013-03-25 23:41:08 <Diablo-D3> all sorts of weird shit there
4908 2013-03-25 23:41:09 <sipa> etotheipi__: no idea how windows shells work, but i guess quotes would do it
4909 2013-03-25 23:41:16 <CodeShark> etotheipi__: yes, quotes
4910 2013-03-25 23:41:18 <etotheipi__> sipa: that's working for the exe
4911 2013-03-25 23:41:20 <etotheipi__> but not the datadir
4912 2013-03-25 23:41:55 <etotheipi__> ack, gtg
4913 2013-03-25 23:42:04 <etotheipi__> confirmation/ideas welcome
4914 2013-03-25 23:42:11 <CodeShark> etotheipi__: I think you can use carats
4915 2013-03-25 23:42:28 <CodeShark> etotheipi__: -datadir=my^ file^ name
4916 2013-03-25 23:42:30 <CodeShark> or something like that
4917 2013-03-25 23:42:39 <sipa> tried -datadir="path with spaces" or "-datadir=path with spaces" or -datadir=path\ with\ spaces
4918 2013-03-25 23:42:47 <boycey> does anyone know how the 1mb block limit works in practice?
4919 2013-03-25 23:42:53 lukestokes is now known as lukestokes_away
4920 2013-03-25 23:42:58 <boycey> what if more than 1mb transactions are broadcast
4921 2013-03-25 23:43:04 <boycey> within 10mins
4922 2013-03-25 23:43:08 <sipa> boycey: then they can't all get into a block
4923 2013-03-25 23:43:17 <sipa> transactions live in mempools in the client
4924 2013-03-25 23:43:26 <sipa> miners pick the ones they like and put them into a block
4925 2013-03-25 23:43:46 <boycey> sipa: … so they just hang around on the client until they go into a block?
4926 2013-03-25 23:44:10 <sipa> yes
4927 2013-03-25 23:44:25 <boycey> sipa: ok
4928 2013-03-25 23:44:40 <boycey> thats the reason my transactions have been slowing down then recently
4929 2013-03-25 23:44:46 <boycey> i guess
4930 2013-03-25 23:45:48 <boycey> is there any data available on the average time taken for a tx to be incorporated into the block chain?
4931 2013-03-25 23:46:11 <boycey> like over a time period
4932 2013-03-25 23:46:18 <boycey> so u can see the change
4933 2013-03-25 23:46:22 <boycey> for example
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4936 2013-03-25 23:48:37 <boycey> sipa: nice website u have
4937 2013-03-25 23:48:55 <PRab> boycey: I know I have seen a website that graphs time taken vs fee, but I can't find it right now.
4938 2013-03-25 23:49:23 <sipa> :)
4939 2013-03-25 23:49:55 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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4942 2013-03-25 23:52:35 <boycey> https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-confirmation-time
4943 2013-03-25 23:53:35 <PRab> yeah it was like that, but also had how paying a fee would affect an individual transaction
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