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  32 2013-03-26 00:51:47 <eklass> Has anyone done any back-of-the-envelope math to estimate what the difficulty will jump to once all the ASIC companies have finished their inital orders?
  33 2013-03-26 00:52:12 <aXs__> eklass: http://organofcorti.blogspot.fr/2013/03/912-asic-choices-asic-earnings-update.html
  34 2013-03-26 00:52:35 <eklass> Yeah, I read that
  35 2013-03-26 00:52:43 <da2ce7> eklass: maybe #bitcoin-mining would be a better place to ask.
  36 2013-03-26 00:53:20 totaleclipse has joined
  37 2013-03-26 00:54:21 <totaleclipse> what do people in here think about creating an IETF working group to standardize and define the bitcoin protocol
  38 2013-03-26 00:54:48 <gmaxwell> I think I'm the only person I've noticed in the bitcoin community who is active in the IETF.
  39 2013-03-26 00:55:11 <gmaxwell> One of the criteria for having a working group is having a sufficient mass of people around willing to do the work.
  40 2013-03-26 00:55:11 <aXs__> totaleclipse: do you need the working group or can you go directly to the RFC draft ?
  41 2013-03-26 00:55:35 <totaleclipse> I just found out about them today, and it seems they are very good at what they do
  42 2013-03-26 00:55:35 <rowit> RFC draft is a good idea for further distributing develpoment
  43 2013-03-26 00:55:43 <gmaxwell> aXs__: anyone can write an indivigual draft, but to produce a RFC it has to go through a working group.
  44 2013-03-26 00:56:14 <aXs__> gmaxwell: a draft would allow to gauge interest and still be lightweight and a reference
  45 2013-03-26 00:56:28 <gmaxwell> Sure.
  46 2013-03-26 00:56:49 <gmaxwell> That doesn't stop it from being a TON of work to do well.
  47 2013-03-26 00:57:30 <totaleclipse> yeah, I was reading through the IPv4 RFC and it looks like a lot of work, but would be v. useful
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  54 2013-03-26 01:03:10 <totaleclipse> alright well i'm going to add "creating a draft RFC for bitcoin" to the million things I would like to get done
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  57 2013-03-26 01:04:38 <gmaxwell> A bitcoin RFC would be substantially more complicated than any of the existant RFCs... except perhaps the opus one, but the opus one largely punts and attaches a base64 copy of an implementation and says "if the code disagrees with this text, the code wins"
  58 2013-03-26 01:05:13 <lianj> and maybe be always outdated :|
  59 2013-03-26 01:05:25 <totaleclipse> yes, that is my understanding, but I just don't think thats going to be good enough for the big leagues
  60 2013-03-26 01:05:39 <sipa> gmaxwell: we can do the same!
  61 2013-03-26 01:05:56 <gmaxwell> sipa: this had mixed opinions in the IETF.
  62 2013-03-26 01:06:12 <gmaxwell> It'll probably be a couple years before its settled if it were a good idea there.
  63 2013-03-26 01:06:12 <sipa> "here is a gitian image that implements a builder"
  64 2013-03-26 01:06:36 <gmaxwell> Though to motivation of doing it for bitcoin is even greater. (Opus doesn't even have bit-exact mandated behavior)
  65 2013-03-26 01:07:20 fishfish has quit (Quit: Zzzzz..zzzzz)
  66 2013-03-26 01:07:25 <totaleclipse> by opus are you referring to satoshi's whitepaper? sorry if this is a stupid question
  67 2013-03-26 01:07:54 <gmaxwell> totaleclipse: no, RFC 6716, not bitcoin related.
  68 2013-03-26 01:09:03 <gmaxwell> ("the last 7 years of my life")
  69 2013-03-26 01:09:35 <sipa> *proud*
  70 2013-03-26 01:11:02 rdymac has joined
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  72 2013-03-26 01:11:56 * [7] remembers that he first ran across gmaxwell at the rockbox project, long before he even heard of bitcoins
  73 2013-03-26 01:12:52 Ashaman has joined
  74 2013-03-26 01:15:47 <da2ce7> gmaxwell: wow: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Opus_quality_comparison_colorblind_compatible.svg :) good work.
  75 2013-03-26 01:17:21 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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  77 2013-03-26 01:19:26 <sipa> do i read that correctly that between 12 and 128 kbit/s, basically nothing beats is?
  78 2013-03-26 01:20:28 <MC1984_> who uses opus
  79 2013-03-26 01:20:37 <MC1984_> skype said they would i think
  80 2013-03-26 01:21:27 <MC1984_> be nice if ms used it on xbox live, cos that still has a codec from when broadband was 3 times faster than dial up
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  84 2013-03-26 01:23:19 <denisx> I use mumble with opus
  85 2013-03-26 01:23:22 <denisx> best groupchat ever
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  87 2013-03-26 01:24:24 <pigeons> that must be where gmaxwell made his first set of admirers
  88 2013-03-26 01:25:11 <remotemass> sipa: would you consider doing a screecast tutorial of main.cpp ?
  89 2013-03-26 01:25:32 <remotemass> screencast
  90 2013-03-26 01:26:11 Michail1_ is now known as Michail1
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  92 2013-03-26 01:26:56 <sipa> remotemass: eh, i prefer irc over video to explain things
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  96 2013-03-26 01:27:26 <sipa> it's also not really code to be proud of, in current form
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  98 2013-03-26 01:27:39 <remotemass> not even for some money?
  99 2013-03-26 01:27:51 <gmaxwell> sipa: thats the idea, nothing should beat it at higher rates until you get to ~lossless either— at least not on average—, but thats hard to measure.
 100 2013-03-26 01:27:54 keystroke has joined
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 103 2013-03-26 01:28:37 <denisx> and best thing is it stops with this psychoacustic shit
 104 2013-03-26 01:29:06 nelisky has quit (Quit: nelisky)
 105 2013-03-26 01:29:15 <gmaxwell> Though that graph is a simplification, it's a composite of about 14 different tests, not all apples to applies, e.g. lower rate stuff is speech, higher rate stuff is music.
 106 2013-03-26 01:29:25 <MC1984_> whats wrong with psychoacoustics
 107 2013-03-26 01:29:39 totaleclipse has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 108 2013-03-26 01:29:47 <sipa> remotemass: i'd rather not
 109 2013-03-26 01:29:53 <etotheipi__> anyone know where to find the public key used for signing alerts?
 110 2013-03-26 01:30:16 <sipa> etotheipi__: use the source, luke!
 111 2013-03-26 01:30:26 <sipa> (alert.cpp, top)
 112 2013-03-26 01:30:30 <etotheipi__> oh duh, I guess it'd be hardcoded in the sourc
 113 2013-03-26 01:31:19 <etotheipi__> different keys for main and testnet?
 114 2013-03-26 01:32:33 <lianj> nope
 115 2013-03-26 01:33:00 <lianj> oh yes
 116 2013-03-26 01:33:03 * lianj updates his code
 117 2013-03-26 01:33:04 Ashaman has joined
 118 2013-03-26 01:33:37 <remotemass> sipa: for what money would you consider it, one youtube video tutorial about main.cpp?
 119 2013-03-26 01:34:00 <sipa> remotemass: i don't care about money :)
 120 2013-03-26 01:34:07 ahfats has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 121 2013-03-26 01:34:10 <denisx> that means something! ;)
 122 2013-03-26 01:34:11 Boydy has quit (Quit: Erection reset by beer.)
 123 2013-03-26 01:34:21 <remotemass> alright! peace
 124 2013-03-26 01:34:22 <sipa> i guess i'm in the wrong business :p
 125 2013-03-26 01:34:24 <amiller> well... you must *care* about *money* in some sense
 126 2013-03-26 01:35:12 <amiller> surely main.cpp deserves some pride since it's held up well so far
 127 2013-03-26 01:35:25 <sipa> "held up" ?
 128 2013-03-26 01:35:42 <gmaxwell> Held up: has not caught fire and caused the end of the universe yet.
 129 2013-03-26 01:36:26 <amiller> like most of the files in openssl
 130 2013-03-26 01:37:12 Isokiv has quit ()
 131 2013-03-26 01:37:19 <sipa> lol
 132 2013-03-26 01:37:21 tockitj has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 133 2013-03-26 01:37:21 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 134 2013-03-26 01:37:42 <remotemass> Sipa: Who would you recommend for such, then?
 135 2013-03-26 01:37:53 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 136 2013-03-26 01:38:27 <sipa> main.cpp is the remains of everything that was hacked into bitcoin since ages, and hasn't been able to be untangled in one way or another...
 137 2013-03-26 01:40:51 canoon has joined
 138 2013-03-26 01:41:41 <phantomcircuit> sipa, perfect description :)
 139 2013-03-26 01:41:47 <remotemass> Would you say that if you completly understand main.cpp and main.h, you must understand at least 80% of it all?
 140 2013-03-26 01:42:03 <sipa> i guess so
 141 2013-03-26 01:42:12 <sipa> oh, no, not the wallet
 142 2013-03-26 01:42:20 <BlueMatt> remotemass: when I started with bitcoin, I spent half my time trying to understand main.cpp...dont, just decide on a project, and do it
 143 2013-03-26 01:42:21 fishfish has joined
 144 2013-03-26 01:42:22 <sipa> wallet stuff is pretty independent
 145 2013-03-26 01:42:46 <remotemass> nice :) I like the idea on focusing on main.cpp only
 146 2013-03-26 01:42:51 <remotemass> of
 147 2013-03-26 01:42:52 <sipa> you can't
 148 2013-03-26 01:43:05 <sipa> net and main interact in weird ways, for example
 149 2013-03-26 01:43:38 cron0 has quit ()
 150 2013-03-26 01:46:04 <remotemass> what about protocol.cpp .How does it play?
 151 2013-03-26 01:46:10 EPiSKiNG is now known as EPiSKiNG-
 152 2013-03-26 01:46:48 <remotemass> just trying to get as much info as possible because the code is so dense
 153 2013-03-26 01:48:55 <k9quaint> but CreateNewBlock seems so straightforward...
 154 2013-03-26 01:49:00 <BlueMatt> remotemass: seriously, pick a project and do it...
 155 2013-03-26 01:49:14 <BlueMatt> best way to learn is to dive in over your head and get through it
 156 2013-03-26 01:49:31 <k9quaint> implement bitcoin in lua
 157 2013-03-26 01:49:57 <remotemass> I dream of implementing it in LabVIEW
 158 2013-03-26 01:50:23 <BlueMatt> if you are doing your own implementation, read other clients too...most of them are easier
 159 2013-03-26 01:50:27 <phantomcircuit> s/dream/have nightmares/
 160 2013-03-26 01:50:29 <k9quaint> you guys should minify the CPP code
 161 2013-03-26 01:50:30 <remotemass> but first I need to understand it
 162 2013-03-26 01:50:43 <k9quaint> line feeds are over rated
 163 2013-03-26 01:51:31 fishfish has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 164 2013-03-26 01:51:38 <remotemass> I am confortable with Java but BitcoinJ, doesnt it to be what I am looking for to build my own client
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 166 2013-03-26 01:52:12 <remotemass> seem
 167 2013-03-26 01:54:37 Gnaf has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 168 2013-03-26 01:54:37 <remotemass> there's not much to choose, actually. Bitcoin-Qt is the real thing
 169 2013-03-26 01:55:21 canoon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 170 2013-03-26 01:55:33 <remotemass> the other projects are more of libraries that may be helpful, but are still far from the real thing
 171 2013-03-26 01:56:48 ripshy has joined
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 173 2013-03-26 01:57:49 <remotemass> If only there were good books to help. Or more helpful comments along the code...
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 179 2013-03-26 02:00:58 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
 180 2013-03-26 02:02:23 <remotemass> anyway, going to sleep. is getting late
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 185 2013-03-26 02:06:09 <gfawkes> what is causing the rash of questions about lots of tiny inputs? are the coins really getting that small?
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 190 2013-03-26 02:10:05 <user_corrupt> does anyone know how many bitcoins are bought and sold with various currencies by daily average?
 191 2013-03-26 02:10:23 <user_corrupt> or just like last 48 hours for example?
 192 2013-03-26 02:12:42 <Billdr> Surely someone does. Check in #mtgox
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 195 2013-03-26 02:12:50 <K1773R> how about looking at the trading volumes @ exchanges? silly...
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 204 2013-03-26 02:21:04 <user_corrupt> preface: im not really a developer
 205 2013-03-26 02:21:15 <user_corrupt> just a web design monkey
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 218 2013-03-26 02:33:38 takeyourhatoff has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 219 2013-03-26 02:34:27 <helo> ProcessMessages(inv, 217 bytes) : CHECKSUM ERROR nChecksum=f97d39b7 hdr.nChecksum=769c4559
 220 2013-03-26 02:35:06 viperhr1 has joined
 221 2013-03-26 02:35:15 <helo> ProcessMessages(tx, 226 bytes) : CHECKSUM ERROR nChecksum=4ca614f1 hdr.nChecksum=54295560
 222 2013-03-26 02:35:23 <helo> PROCESSMESSAGE: INVALID MESSAGESTART
 223 2013-03-26 02:35:34 <helo> right after a misbehaving peer :/
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 225 2013-03-26 02:38:11 darinmorrison has quit ()
 226 2013-03-26 02:38:51 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 227 2013-03-26 02:39:00 <helo> sipa: this is on txoptim
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 232 2013-03-26 02:47:27 <helo> the process aborted :/
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 241 2013-03-26 02:52:05 evan3 has joined
 242 2013-03-26 02:52:24 <evan3> Hey, So, I'm using blockchain.info's payment button and it took over 5 minutes for the funds to make it through their system. Should I just use another service, or implement the funds receiving code myself?
 243 2013-03-26 02:55:54 darkskiez has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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 247 2013-03-26 03:03:16 <CodeShark> I wouldn't rely on someone else's service for anything other than casual personal stuff
 248 2013-03-26 03:03:48 <CodeShark> or testing
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 282 2013-03-26 03:53:47 <MC1984_> full on holocaust denial going on in #bitcoin now
 283 2013-03-26 03:54:15 <MC1984_> i should probably be sleeping anyway
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 285 2013-03-26 03:55:23 <Luke-Jr> MC1984_: nobody cares, and it's off-topic here
 286 2013-03-26 03:55:53 <MC1984_> not really gonna take an off topic telling from you luke
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 292 2013-03-26 04:01:08 <helo> when a wallet is encrypted, are the unencrypted private keys encrypted, or just removed from the pool?
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 295 2013-03-26 04:01:47 <MC1984_> vaguely remember that the keypool is regenerated?
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 297 2013-03-26 04:03:24 <helo> i asked the wrong question... are the existing "visible" unencrypted private keys encrypted?
 298 2013-03-26 04:04:45 <MC1984_> isnt that what encrypting your wallet entails any way?
 299 2013-03-26 04:07:01 <helo> i thought the important part was that all new addresses would have encrypted keys
 300 2013-03-26 04:07:46 <helo> and it makes sense that the old unencrypted keys would become encrypted... i was just hoping they weren't for the sake of this guy who forgot his passphrase
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 309 2013-03-26 04:12:46 <MC1984_> you know
 310 2013-03-26 04:13:00 <MC1984_> i wonder if wallet encryption if leading to moe lost coins, not less
 311 2013-03-26 04:13:21 <bitvoix> less stolen coins. more lost coins
 312 2013-03-26 04:13:27 tkolsto has joined
 313 2013-03-26 04:13:33 <MC1984_> which is the lesser evil?
 314 2013-03-26 04:14:32 <necropumpkin> "if I don't get 'em, nobody should"
 315 2013-03-26 04:15:13 <SomeoneWeird> MC1984_, well people don't HAVE to use it
 316 2013-03-26 04:15:22 <SomeoneWeird> if you're not going to remember a password, you shouldn't
 317 2013-03-26 04:15:26 <osmosis> an option to encrypt the entire wallet would be nice, so that account balances are hidden as well.
 318 2013-03-26 04:15:46 <SomeoneWeird> what would that do?
 319 2013-03-26 04:15:55 <jgarzik> SomeoneWeird: privacy
 320 2013-03-26 04:15:58 <SomeoneWeird> well
 321 2013-03-26 04:16:03 <SomeoneWeird> yeah, I suppose
 322 2013-03-26 04:16:26 <jgarzik> same effort as encrypting entire drive; adversaries would not know if you controlled keys or not
 323 2013-03-26 04:16:38 <MC1984_> wallet size?
 324 2013-03-26 04:16:55 <jgarzik> Movie Villain cannot put gun to your head, and say "I know you control key 1ABCD; spend it to me" :)
 325 2013-03-26 04:17:32 <SomeoneWeird> lol
 326 2013-03-26 04:17:33 <SomeoneWeird> ya
 327 2013-03-26 04:18:15 Ashaman has joined
 328 2013-03-26 04:19:03 <helo> there was some effort put into ensuring going from unencrypted wallet to encrypted wallet didn't leave unencrypted keys lying around on the drive, right?
 329 2013-03-26 04:19:26 <MC1984_> lol if thats true this guy is fucked
 330 2013-03-26 04:20:16 <helo> i think he's fucked... hopefully David__ who i guided through encrypting his wallet (which he was backing up on dropbox) doesn't suffer the same fate
 331 2013-03-26 04:22:41 genBTC has quit (Read error: No route to host)
 332 2013-03-26 04:23:31 <MC1984_> bitcoin has so far to go before its atually usable
 333 2013-03-26 04:23:41 <MC1984_> if it ever will be even
 334 2013-03-26 04:24:12 <MC1984_> managing your wallet is too fucking scary
 335 2013-03-26 04:24:47 <MC1984_> i dont even want to transact my coins for a very long time if possible
 336 2013-03-26 04:25:17 <MC1984_> i thought i lost the passphrase once and my face felt like i was having a stroke
 337 2013-03-26 04:25:25 <MC1984_> and i dont even have much
 338 2013-03-26 04:26:09 <MC1984_> theres a finality with knowing that if you fuck up once theres not a power on earth that can help you
 339 2013-03-26 04:26:30 <MC1984_> most peopledont even know that, they come on #bitcoin all like guys i lost my password halp
 340 2013-03-26 04:26:35 <MC1984_> and someone has to break the bad news
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 346 2013-03-26 04:30:30 <MC1984_> people are used to forgetting and resetting thier facbook shit 3 times a month
 347 2013-03-26 04:31:30 <MC1984_> when i worked network support for 500 ish users, and hour of my day every day was resetting user accounts for dumbasses
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 352 2013-03-26 04:40:59 <bitvoix> I encrypted my electrum wallet and wrote down the password.
 353 2013-03-26 04:41:08 <bitvoix> but for some reason, I couldn't get it to work later
 354 2013-03-26 04:41:14 <bitvoix> but luckily I had my seed
 355 2013-03-26 04:41:20 <bitvoix> so I was able to simply recreate the wallet
 356 2013-03-26 04:41:23 <bitvoix> phew
 357 2013-03-26 04:41:51 <bitvoix> so that sold me on the whole brain wallet idea
 358 2013-03-26 04:42:25 <bitvoix> however, on the other hand, there isn't much security in encrypting the wallet if the seed is stored in plain text :-)
 359 2013-03-26 04:43:06 <dermoth> home!~thomas@dsl-66-36-145-77.mtl.aei.ca|bitvoix, the point is that you normally print the seed and store it in a safe...
 360 2013-03-26 04:43:17 <bitvoix> of course
 361 2013-03-26 04:43:26 <HM> then take the combination to the safe and encrypt it
 362 2013-03-26 04:43:30 <bitvoix> haha
 363 2013-03-26 04:43:57 <dermoth> home!~thomas@dsl-66-36-145-77.mtl.aei.ca|actually if you really have real value you may want to go with a bank safe
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 366 2013-03-26 04:44:58 <HM> just remember the damn seed
 367 2013-03-26 04:45:16 <dermoth> home!~thomas@dsl-66-36-145-77.mtl.aei.ca|or even better use the hedge fund's methos... encrypt the seed using keys, using secret sharing (ex need two out of three secrets to decrypt the seed), then store the encrypted seed along with one secret on a different bank
 368 2013-03-26 04:46:20 <HM> interesting idea. it's only a matter of time before people start trading with these paper secrets
 369 2013-03-26 04:46:52 <dermoth> home!~thomas@dsl-66-36-145-77.mtl.aei.ca|you myght want to store them in diff. countryes of you fear armageddon-like scenarios, but at least if one bank gets hit by a meteor you still have the seed, and if someone manage to steel your save at one bank it won't be enough to get the coins
 370 2013-03-26 04:47:40 <HM> they should put a gigantic TPM on the space station
 371 2013-03-26 04:47:49 <HM> then we'll be safe from nuclear war
 372 2013-03-26 04:47:57 <dermoth> home!~thomas@dsl-66-36-145-77.mtl.aei.ca|no way
 373 2013-03-26 04:48:10 RoboTeddy has joined
 374 2013-03-26 04:48:12 <dermoth> home!~thomas@dsl-66-36-145-77.mtl.aei.ca|way too much junk around it - it's actually pretty risky
 375 2013-03-26 04:48:23 zariok has joined
 376 2013-03-26 04:48:28 <dermoth> home!~thomas@dsl-66-36-145-77.mtl.aei.ca|expecially if "they" nuke houston...
 377 2013-03-26 04:48:40 <jgarzik> Or, no need for secret sharing.  Just have multiple keys.
 378 2013-03-26 04:48:48 <dermoth> home!~thomas@dsl-66-36-145-77.mtl.aei.ca|that's what I said
 379 2013-03-26 04:48:48 <jgarzik> And multi-sig requires M of N to spend.
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 381 2013-03-26 04:48:59 <HM> multiple orbital keystores....hmmm...
 382 2013-03-26 04:50:06 <dermoth> home!~thomas@dsl-66-36-145-77.mtl.aei.ca|HM, orbital is a really bad idea - sooner or later you'll get hit by some junk flying at a few thousand miles/second...
 383 2013-03-26 04:50:47 <dermoth> home!~thomas@dsl-66-36-145-77.mtl.aei.ca|The ISS has to dodge junk pieces sometimes
 384 2013-03-26 04:51:04 <HM> Yeah, best not keep anything valuable on anything orbiting at 10s of thousands of miles an hour
 385 2013-03-26 04:51:09 RoboTeddy has joined
 386 2013-03-26 04:51:24 <HM> especially if it's full of radioactive molten rock, surrounding a ball of burning hydrogen
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 393 2013-03-26 05:01:56 <gmaxwell> 21:20 < bitvoix> so that sold me on the whole brain wallet idea
 394 2013-03-26 05:02:22 <gmaxwell> uh. that just refuted the brain wallet idea! the reason you couldn't decrypt it would be that the key wasn't what you thought it was!
 395 2013-03-26 05:02:32 <gmaxwell> but you had the not-in-your-brain written down seed to save you!
 396 2013-03-26 05:02:41 <bitvoix> haha
 397 2013-03-26 05:02:45 <bitvoix> you're right.
 398 2013-03-26 05:02:59 <bitvoix> I guess it sold me on the deterministic wallet
 399 2013-03-26 05:03:25 stretchwarren has joined
 400 2013-03-26 05:03:47 <bitvoix> the problem wasn't with my memory though, I actually wrote down the encryption password. I must have just typed it in wrong during encryption
 401 2013-03-26 05:03:49 <bitvoix> :-)
 402 2013-03-26 05:03:55 <gmaxwell> (and normally thats what I recommend: offline hardcopy backups— not depending on brain anything, because brains are less reliable than expected... and attackers don't find paper or usb keys in your house)
 403 2013-03-26 05:04:04 <gmaxwell> Yea, that happens too.. persistant typo
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 405 2013-03-26 05:04:54 <MC1984_> subcutaneous key implant?
 406 2013-03-26 05:05:05 <MC1984_> bit of metal with a passphrase on it?
 407 2013-03-26 05:05:16 <MC1984_> bet you could get it done in a tatoo parlour
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 411 2013-03-26 05:07:32 <jgarzik> My dogs got a sub-dermal ID chip, when they were rescued as puppies
 412 2013-03-26 05:07:39 <jgarzik> Has a bit of data on it
 413 2013-03-26 05:08:20 <MC1984_> i dont want someone stealing my money just by pointing a parabola at me
 414 2013-03-26 05:09:00 <jgarzik> there's always crystal-based keys, practically impossible to copy ;p
 415 2013-03-26 05:09:14 <MC1984_> the idea is that to redeem you gonna have to cut it out of your flesh, and that is unlikely to be done by accident or without permission
 416 2013-03-26 05:09:40 <MC1984_> crystal?
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 418 2013-03-26 05:10:27 <warren> MC1984_: won't that be destroyed (along with some of your human tissue) if you get a MRI?
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 420 2013-03-26 05:11:21 <MC-Droid> could be ceramic instead i suppose
 421 2013-03-26 05:11:38 <MC-Droid> better if it is actually, if you want to keep it secret
 422 2013-03-26 05:12:01 <MC-Droid> laser etched ceramic bead
 423 2013-03-26 05:12:22 canoon has joined
 424 2013-03-26 05:12:40 <MC-Droid> ame trust level as a casicus coin though
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 427 2013-03-26 05:14:24 <warren> MC-Droid: operate the laser yourself, somehow...
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 464 2013-03-26 06:09:14 <helo> bad node! not sure if anyone cares, but Misbehaving: 108.61.63.251:8333 (90 -> 100) DISCONNECTING
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 466 2013-03-26 06:10:59 <gmaxwell> helo: what was it doing?
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 472 2013-03-26 06:15:35 <jgarzik> thinking of P2SH
 473 2013-03-26 06:15:47 <jgarzik> I wish there was a useful way to store the redeem script locally
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 477 2013-03-26 06:16:37 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: addmultisigaddress loads one...
 478 2013-03-26 06:17:03 <gmaxwell> really there should be some kind of importp2sh that imports the redeemscript as well as additional metadata about how to satisify it.
 479 2013-03-26 06:17:36 <gmaxwell> e.g. gives you urls and/or descriptions of all the involved keys in a multisig.
 480 2013-03-26 06:18:22 <jgarzik> even if we wanted to use P2SH by default, for most spend transactions, it seems like -- from a user interface perspective -- you want to communicate the redeem script (via this wonderful payment protocol perhaps)
 481 2013-03-26 06:18:48 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: huh? I don't think you do.
 482 2013-03-26 06:19:05 ThomasV has joined
 483 2013-03-26 06:19:09 <gmaxwell> If I'm asking you to pay me, it's none of your business how I manage my accounts.
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 485 2013-03-26 06:20:03 <gmaxwell> oh, perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by spend transactions.
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 509 2013-03-26 07:02:49 <TradeFortress> sorry for leaving earlier but bitcoind just keeps on exiting :P
 510 2013-03-26 07:02:55 <TradeFortress> has being happening for multiple times
 511 2013-03-26 07:04:12 <Luke-Jr> you use IRC with bitcoind? O.o
 512 2013-03-26 07:04:45 <TradeFortress> nope, but had to go
 513 2013-03-26 07:04:58 <TradeFortress> anyway, again, nothing suspicious in debug.log
 514 2013-03-26 07:05:00 <TradeFortress> just accepting blocks
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 523 2013-03-26 07:17:28 <TradeFortress> hmm I guess I will have to get in the habit of restarting bitcoind every time it crashes
 524 2013-03-26 07:17:57 <sivu> while true ; do bitcoind ; done
 525 2013-03-26 07:18:37 <gmaxwell> TradeFortress: you're running out of virtual memory most likely. Stop listening to inbound connections and I bet it stays up.
 526 2013-03-26 07:18:46 <Belxjander> Can anyone point me at a general overview document of the processes inside the "Wallet" and "miner" applications?
 527 2013-03-26 07:19:04 <gmaxwell> I think linnode is running some weird kernel that reduces the VM space— you're the second person who's shown up with a linnode node that was mysteriously crashing.
 528 2013-03-26 07:20:14 <TradeFortress> gmaxwell, hmm, will more swap space help?
 529 2013-03-26 07:21:36 <sivu> TradeFortress: it's not the memory thats the issue, it is the address space for the memory
 530 2013-03-26 07:21:42 <sivu> so more swap will not help
 531 2013-03-26 07:22:12 <TradeFortress> okay, so what can I do to make it stop crashing? reduce the number of connections?
 532 2013-03-26 07:22:22 <gmaxwell> TradeFortress: ldpreloading tcmalloc will help, though not likely enough for you to have a full compliment of connections.
 533 2013-03-26 07:22:27 zariok has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 534 2013-03-26 07:22:41 <gmaxwell> TradeFortress: try setting listen=0  and see if it stays up.
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 537 2013-03-26 07:23:43 <TradeFortress> listen=0 in bitcoin.conf? Will that allow me to dl the blockchain?
 538 2013-03-26 07:23:52 <TradeFortress> (and keep up with transactions, otherwise there's no point)
 539 2013-03-26 07:24:00 <sivu> yes
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 541 2013-03-26 07:24:13 <sivu> it will make the connections itself, but does not accept incoming connections
 542 2013-03-26 07:24:42 <TradeFortress> okay, thanks!
 543 2013-03-26 07:24:44 <TradeFortress> I'll try that
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 589 2013-03-26 08:47:19 <grau> !ticker
 590 2013-03-26 08:47:20 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 76.20001, Best ask: 76.50000, Bid-ask spread: 0.29999, Last trade: 76.50000, 24 hour volume: 81153.30956201, 24 hour low: 71.52122, 24 hour high: 78.00000, 24 hour vwap: 74.80453
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 598 2013-03-26 08:57:53 <grau> !ticker
 599 2013-03-26 08:57:58 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 76.40000, Best ask: 76.50000, Bid-ask spread: 0.10000, Last trade: 76.50000, 24 hour volume: 81165.20482049, 24 hour low: 71.52122, 24 hour high: 78.00000, 24 hour vwap: 74.80844
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 664 2013-03-26 09:40:07 <qdii> hello
 665 2013-03-26 09:41:46 <Billdr> oh, hi.
 666 2013-03-26 09:43:40 <qdii> if I understand what happens during data mining well, a bunch of people are trying to find a block with a particular nonce so that the hash of the hash of the header verifies some weird condition
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 669 2013-03-26 09:44:17 <Billdr> well, data mining is a phrase that means something different than bitcoin mining.
 670 2013-03-26 09:44:26 <qdii> *bitcoin mining
 671 2013-03-26 09:44:28 <qdii> my bad :)
 672 2013-03-26 09:44:33 <Billdr> no problem
 673 2013-03-26 09:44:42 <qdii> does that mean that whenever a block is found, the whole miner fleet has to start over?
 674 2013-03-26 09:44:57 <Belxjander> not that I can see
 675 2013-03-26 09:44:57 <Billdr> yea
 676 2013-03-26 09:45:11 <Belxjander> eh?
 677 2013-03-26 09:45:11 <qdii> the reason is that the hash of the previous block is part of the header
 678 2013-03-26 09:45:22 <Belxjander> so the entire block chain is processed every 10 minutes?
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 680 2013-03-26 09:45:33 <Billdr> The set of transactions in the current block have been commited to the block chain. We then make a new block with the next set of transactions
 681 2013-03-26 09:46:39 <Billdr> of course, the other miners have to agree that the last commited block is valid before it's actually commited.
 682 2013-03-26 09:47:02 <Belxjander> Billdr: does the block chain have to be obtained from the beginning?
 683 2013-03-26 09:47:05 <n1c> (I could be way off here) but I think the idea of "start over" might be misleading, it's not necessarily a sequential process the miners are going through. They do however start with a new "top" block though. (afaik).
 684 2013-03-26 09:47:24 <Billdr> ^
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 687 2013-03-26 09:48:00 <Belxjander> and you can link into the network from any point at all?
 688 2013-03-26 09:48:01 <qdii> n1c: but it is somehow though, you start with a nonce, say 0, and then you increment it until the sha(sha(header)) is correct
 689 2013-03-26 09:48:07 <Billdr> Belxjander, it used to. I'm not 100% sure on how it works since .8
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 691 2013-03-26 09:48:36 <n1c> What I'm saying qdii, I don't think you /have/ to go nonce++
 692 2013-03-26 09:48:50 <n1c> You could generate random ones
 693 2013-03-26 09:49:00 <Belxjander> Billdr: I think I should have started with coming here to ask more about the code aspects of bitcoin mining
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 695 2013-03-26 09:49:15 <n1c> Please keep in mind, I've neither read or written any bitcoin or miner code :)
 696 2013-03-26 09:49:20 * Belxjander has wasted a week trying to grok the docs and various sources
 697 2013-03-26 09:49:28 <qdii> n1c: hm I think that would result in the same thing: say you start with 5, it doesn’t work, then everyone in the pool knows that 5 is not a correct nonce
 698 2013-03-26 09:49:37 <qdii> so you have progressed
 699 2013-03-26 09:49:46 <n1c> I don't think you communicate failures back to the network?
 700 2013-03-26 09:49:50 <n1c> You all just go at it until a success.
 701 2013-03-26 09:49:57 <n1c> Again, speculation!
 702 2013-03-26 09:49:58 <n1c> :)
 703 2013-03-26 09:49:59 <Billdr> I haven't done any work on the bitcoin spec itself. I'm just building things on top of it. My understanding isn't going to be a lot better than the average investor's :p
 704 2013-03-26 09:50:02 <qdii> yea, here too
 705 2013-03-26 09:50:04 <Belxjander> n1c: well I saw that the nonces are cycled so I was thinking of starting and then throwing blocks of nonces through an FPGA using that "mid-state" thing the docs talked about
 706 2013-03-26 09:50:37 <n1c> Yeah I was thinking about similar stuff.
 707 2013-03-26 09:50:54 <n1c> But lots of the crypto-stuff is over my head so I haven't done more digging.
 708 2013-03-26 09:51:10 <qdii> I thought the purpose of pool was to distribute the nonces among the miners, so that once a nonce has been proven bad, no other miner computes it again
 709 2013-03-26 09:51:12 <Belxjander> hell... I even have an FPGA sitting here idle to play with built into my machine
 710 2013-03-26 09:51:49 <n1c> I was thinking the other day - if you got sneaky with the way you pick nonces, could you beat others to correct blocks? But surely there's a reason it's not that easy? Then I realised I know so little about stats I'm just guessing :)
 711 2013-03-26 09:51:55 <Belxjander> n1c: I need a nice walkthrough like how blowfish and twofish are described for the steps in the algorithm
 712 2013-03-26 09:52:16 <Belxjander> n1c: its brute-force or lucky chances
 713 2013-03-26 09:52:20 <n1c> Belx if it's not on the wiki, it'll be in the white paper or on the internet somewhere I'm sure.
 714 2013-03-26 09:52:25 <n1c> Or, just read the code?
 715 2013-03-26 09:52:30 <n1c> I don't think it's /that/ much.
 716 2013-03-26 09:52:42 <Belxjander> n1c: Ive been breaking my mind with the C++ and python clients
 717 2013-03-26 09:52:48 <n1c> -_-
 718 2013-03-26 09:53:08 <Belxjander> Ive never been very good at grokking other peoples code without some kind of interaction to work it out
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 720 2013-03-26 09:53:17 <n1c> It's a pity all the core people are in a way different timezone.
 721 2013-03-26 09:54:14 <n1c> qdii - when you say pool you mean, pool mining like 50BTC, BTC Guild etc?
 722 2013-03-26 09:54:22 <qdii> yes :)
 723 2013-03-26 09:54:29 <n1c> Ah, I don't know how they work.
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 725 2013-03-26 09:54:38 <qdii> me neither, only speculating :)
 726 2013-03-26 09:54:39 <n1c> It would be smart if they did do something like alert nodes of already tried/failed nonces.
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 728 2013-03-26 09:56:16 <n1c> I really wish we had proper answers to this dicussion
 729 2013-03-26 09:56:18 <n1c> It keeps me up at night.
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 732 2013-03-26 09:56:54 <Belxjander> n1c: just reading some of the wiki about the blockchain...
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 736 2013-03-26 09:57:27 <qdii> n1c: I thought the whole purpose of poolmining was exactly that. A central authority says worker1 takes these nonces, worker2 takes those, … so that no 2 workers overlap nonces
 737 2013-03-26 09:57:30 <Belxjander> would it still be valid to run an "AppEngine" instance as a "bitcoind" node and have the backend database off that handle the blockchain... but never run anything else on it?
 738 2013-03-26 09:57:46 <sivu> n1c, timezones are good. that way the development will continue 24/7
 739 2013-03-26 09:58:04 <n1c> :p
 740 2013-03-26 09:58:17 <sivu> every 8 hours theres a switchover to next continent
 741 2013-03-26 09:58:36 <n1c> qdii: I always just understood it as a way of getting smaller increments of the winnings. So it's less of a lottery and more spread out.
 742 2013-03-26 09:58:38 <sivu> its like working in three shifts
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 746 2013-03-26 09:59:53 <Scrat> Belxjander: can't decipher what you said. appengine can only run specific databases
 747 2013-03-26 10:00:02 <hardsoft> Habla español alguien?
 748 2013-03-26 10:00:41 <n1c> :x
 749 2013-03-26 10:01:51 <qdii> yo si
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 751 2013-03-26 10:02:13 <sivu> uno cerveza por favor
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 754 2013-03-26 10:07:04 <da2ce7> G'day all
 755 2013-03-26 10:08:32 <qdii> good day
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 761 2013-03-26 10:14:45 <sipa> helo: thx, i know there is a bug in txoptim; the last debug.log lines may be useful
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 798 2013-03-26 10:43:04 <n1c> Any of you guys know much about wallet "cold storage"
 799 2013-03-26 10:43:06 <n1c> ?
 800 2013-03-26 10:43:20 <Billdr> I use one, I think I understand it.
 801 2013-03-26 10:43:25 <Billdr> I could be completely wrong though.
 802 2013-03-26 10:44:09 <n1c> Haha
 803 2013-03-26 10:44:21 <n1c> So it basically means - taking your wallet off the internet right?
 804 2013-03-26 10:45:29 testnode9 has joined
 805 2013-03-26 10:45:32 <Billdr> yea
 806 2013-03-26 10:45:35 kadoban has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 807 2013-03-26 10:45:56 <Billdr> the wallet I'm using as my cold storage has never been imported to a pc that is online.
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 810 2013-03-26 10:46:32 <Guest70513> dude - read here - https://bitcoinarmory.com/ and then here - https://bitcoinarmory.com/using-offline-wallets-in-armory/
 811 2013-03-26 10:46:41 <n1c> And, a wallet is basically just a collection of private keys right?
 812 2013-03-26 10:46:42 <Guest70513> tutorial / presentation - everything....
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 815 2013-03-26 10:47:11 <n1c> Thanks, I'm more asking for the point of discussion.
 816 2013-03-26 10:47:19 <Billdr> as I understand it, it's one private key and a bunch of associated public keys
 817 2013-03-26 10:47:21 <qdii> does angela merkel like trees or something?
 818 2013-03-26 10:47:35 <Billdr> Once we start talking cryptography I get really vague real fast.
 819 2013-03-26 10:47:46 <n1c> Yeah me too -_-
 820 2013-03-26 10:47:51 <n1c> Hence the vague questions
 821 2013-03-26 10:48:13 <n1c> Anyway, where I was going with this...
 822 2013-03-26 10:48:37 <n1c> It just seems like a cool idea that you would be able to 3d-print something, that contains your private key for offline storage.
 823 2013-03-26 10:48:41 <Guest70513> sent u a pm with tutorial
 824 2013-03-26 10:48:55 <jouke> well, actaully, my definition of a wallet is that it contains the private keys, but also information about transactions regarding those keys.
 825 2013-03-26 10:49:12 <Billdr> That makes more sense
 826 2013-03-26 10:49:35 <Billdr> but, is that plural? Private key*S*?
 827 2013-03-26 10:49:41 <sipa> n1c: what do you need?
 828 2013-03-26 10:49:44 <n1c> But there's no value in keeping the transaction history "offline"
 829 2013-03-26 10:50:15 <n1c> sipa - just curious about if there would ever be a need to keep your wallet offline in some physical form.
 830 2013-03-26 10:50:18 <n1c> that could be 3d printed.
 831 2013-03-26 10:50:24 <Billdr> The transaction history is on the chain. You really just need the private key to find the relevant transactions.
 832 2013-03-26 10:50:29 <jouke> depends. If you want to send those coins you received, you need to have that transaction history.
 833 2013-03-26 10:50:36 <qdii> from bitcoin-qt's gettransaction command, I cannot see the address from which the transaction originated
 834 2013-03-26 10:50:51 <qdii> why is that?
 835 2013-03-26 10:51:11 <sipa> qdii: because bitcoin transactions do not have a 'from' address
 836 2013-03-26 10:51:37 <Billdr> n1c, it'd have to be cooler than this: https://www.casascius.com/
 837 2013-03-26 10:52:01 <sipa> they have inputs, and each input may have an identifiable previous address that coins were previously assigned to
 838 2013-03-26 10:52:01 <n1c> It's just been rolling around in my head for a few days.
 839 2013-03-26 10:52:15 <n1c> If there was a /somewhat/ standard way of printing them out, it could be pretty awesome.
 840 2013-03-26 10:52:17 <sipa> but even then, it probablyndoesn't do what you want
 841 2013-03-26 10:52:36 <jouke> n1c: I use a pen.
 842 2013-03-26 10:52:40 <n1c> haha yeah Billdr
 843 2013-03-26 10:52:41 <Scrat> n1c: a QR encoded privkey would do the trick
 844 2013-03-26 10:52:53 <n1c> Yeah, I figured as much.
 845 2013-03-26 10:53:01 <qdii> sipa: from gettransaction, I can’t see the input either
 846 2013-03-26 10:53:09 <n1c> not very easy to read that, but printing would be easy
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 848 2013-03-26 10:53:24 <sipa> (in particular, sending transactions there will not guarantee it arrives at the sender, in addition to being blatant address rwuse)
 849 2013-03-26 10:53:27 <Scrat> n1c: it is easy if you also print the privkey in base58 below it :p
 850 2013-03-26 10:53:38 <sipa> qdii: you may need getrawtransaction for that
 851 2013-03-26 10:53:43 <n1c> hehehe
 852 2013-03-26 10:53:50 <sipa> qdii: which need -txindex
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 855 2013-03-26 10:55:13 <qdii> sipa: sorry what is txindex?
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 858 2013-03-26 10:55:42 <sipa> qdii: a transaction index, to be able to look up transactions in the block chain by txid
 859 2013-03-26 10:55:57 <sipa> qdii: since 0.8, that's off by default
 860 2013-03-26 10:56:53 <qdii> hm, the help page says getrawtransaction <txid>, are you sure I need the index?
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 862 2013-03-26 10:57:04 <sipa> yes
 863 2013-03-26 10:57:29 <sipa> it will work without, for not-entirely-spent transactions, but more slowly
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 866 2013-03-26 11:02:02 <qdii> so basically, for a regular, address-to-address, transaction, it has one input. When the transaction generates bitcoins (like, mining), it has no input and one output, right?
 867 2013-03-26 11:02:56 <sipa> there is no such thing as an address to address transaction
 868 2013-03-26 11:03:14 <sipa> bitcoin does not function in terms of addresses but in terms of coins
 869 2013-03-26 11:03:30 <sipa> there are no address balances or anything at the protocol level
 870 2013-03-26 11:03:43 <sipa> you spend a previous transaction output
 871 2013-03-26 11:03:50 <sipa> andntypically more than one
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 873 2013-03-26 11:05:55 <qdii> hm, so is my "balance" is the sum of all the transaction I have received and not yet spent?
 874 2013-03-26 11:06:26 <Eliel> qdii: yes
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 880 2013-03-26 11:09:00 <jaakkos> qdii: to be exact, it's the sum of outputs you've not yet spent - the transactions may have multiple outputs, to many persons for instance
 881 2013-03-26 11:09:45 <sipa> "coin" is often used as a synonym for "unspent transaction output"
 882 2013-03-26 11:09:49 <qdii> okay. so if I wanted to write sth to display my balance, I would crawl all the transactions one by one and filter those which have an output to my address
 883 2013-03-26 11:10:22 <sipa> that would give you the "balance of an address", which is mostly useless
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 885 2013-03-26 11:10:39 <sipa> as you typically have a combination of addresses that constitute a wallet
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 887 2013-03-26 11:11:31 <qdii> okay, but there is no way to know which addresses are part of a wallet? that's the beauty of it right
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 889 2013-03-26 11:12:20 <jaakkos> others than yourself might not know, but looking at the transaction history they might be able to deduce a thing or two.
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 898 2013-03-26 11:15:45 <jaakkos> qdii: for instance, if you make a transaction that spends two inputs, then you must have known the private key to both, so they may both have been your addresses
 899 2013-03-26 11:16:20 <Scrat> at which point does getbalance * get slow? ie. > 100ms. I see that CWalletTX is using a cache so subsequent calls to getbalance should be pretty fast?
 900 2013-03-26 11:17:04 <jaakkos> qdii: further, since the outputs are always spent 100%, your change is sent back to you, to a new address - one might be able to deduce which output is your change, and associate the change address to you before you spend it
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 902 2013-03-26 11:18:18 <qdii> jaakkos: I create a transaction to spend two inputs → why do I need the private key to both ?
 903 2013-03-26 11:18:38 <jaakkos> my bad - s/inputs/outputs/
 904 2013-03-26 11:18:50 <Eliel> qdii: you need to prove you're authorized to spend both.
 905 2013-03-26 11:19:08 <Eliel> not enough if you're just authorized to spend one of them
 906 2013-03-26 11:21:02 <qdii> ok jaakkos
 907 2013-03-26 11:21:20 <qdii> Eliel: yea, but that would be the same one private key of the address
 908 2013-03-26 11:21:42 <sipa> qdii: why do you assume both inputs spend something assigned to the same address?
 909 2013-03-26 11:21:54 <Eliel> of course, if a wallet becomes common that allows a secure/low priority transaction and when those are made, it tries to find other nodes making similar transactions and negotiates with them to combine the transactions, then it becomes more difficult to interpret the blockchain data this way.
 910 2013-03-26 11:22:07 <sipa> that's possible, but not really common operation, as you're supposed to use a new key per transaction anywa
 911 2013-03-26 11:22:47 <sipa> (though current infrastructure makes that somewhat hard, so we do see some address reuse today)
 912 2013-03-26 11:22:50 <jaakkos> qdii: notice that output/input is interchangeable here - it's a previous tx's output, but now used as an input in the hypotethical transaction we're discussing
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 918 2013-03-26 11:31:50 <qdii> now I am a bit confused, sorry. Am I right to think that an input is a transaction itself?
 919 2013-03-26 11:32:04 <_dr> sorry if it's OT, but regarding avalon's 3rd batch.. why can i still order them? i thought they sold out like 10 minutes after they announced them
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 921 2013-03-26 11:32:46 <Graet> ppl put orders in that didnt get paid for
 922 2013-03-26 11:32:54 <Graet> so the units go bak ibto "stock"
 923 2013-03-26 11:33:18 <jaakkos> qdii: no. a transaction has 2 lists: inputs and outputs.
 924 2013-03-26 11:33:30 <_dr> ah, seems like the initial 'people will buy them at any price' assumption was wrong :)
 925 2013-03-26 11:33:53 <Graet> well ppl are still buying :P
 926 2013-03-26 11:33:59 <qdii> jaakkos: yea, I never said otherwise :)
 927 2013-03-26 11:34:15 <Eliel> _dr: more likely they had some problems paying for them.
 928 2013-03-26 11:34:24 <qdii> but is the input of a transaction a transaction itself?
 929 2013-03-26 11:34:27 <Eliel> _dr: like forgetting passphrases, paying the wrong amount... that kind of stuff.
 930 2013-03-26 11:34:45 <qdii> or rather, are the inputs of a transaction transactions themselves
 931 2013-03-26 11:34:45 <Eliel> or even paying the wrong address
 932 2013-03-26 11:34:56 <jaakkos> qdii: no, the input is a reference to an output of a previous transaction
 933 2013-03-26 11:35:31 <_dr> paying 75btc to the wrong address, heh. people handling such amounts should know better :)
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 936 2013-03-26 11:35:59 <jaakkos> qdii: the input refers a previous output, ie. it refers previous tx plus an index to the previous tx's output list, and gives the signature to redeem that output
 937 2013-03-26 11:36:04 <qdii> okay, so a transaction could really have two inputs, which are references to 2 outputs to different addresses
 938 2013-03-26 11:36:26 <jaakkos> yes that is common.
 939 2013-03-26 11:36:28 * qdii trying to make sense of all what have been said
 940 2013-03-26 11:37:11 <qdii> ahhh
 941 2013-03-26 11:37:50 <qdii> I didn’t see that bitcoin-qt didn’t let me choose which address to send the money FROM
 942 2013-03-26 11:38:00 <qdii> it acts as a real wallet
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 944 2013-03-26 11:38:51 <jaakkos> that could be interesting functionality but i think most people wouldn't need it
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 947 2013-03-26 11:41:52 <qdii> well, I thought it was important: if a company wants to do some serious business and have only ONE address to show to its customers
 948 2013-03-26 11:41:57 <jaakkos> if the recipient knows one of your prior addresses, you might use such function to send them coins and they would know where they came from
 949 2013-03-26 11:42:22 <qdii> (one address, to make it less error-prone)
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 952 2013-03-26 11:44:15 <jaakkos> well, you could do that if you really want
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 954 2013-03-26 11:44:20 <jaakkos> but not with the reference wallet
 955 2013-03-26 11:45:08 <jaakkos> these days the standard is that if you want to know who is sending you money, the recipient gives a unique address only to the sender, and that way they don't need to care about the 'from' addresses.
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 959 2013-03-26 11:52:43 <qdii> which makes it hard to do accounting based on the transactions only
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 964 2013-03-26 11:56:25 <qdii> is that butterflylab a scam? are there people who have received boxes from batch 1 and 2 ?
 965 2013-03-26 11:57:44 <jaakkos> this is OT on -dev, but perhaps you're referring to Avalon, who have certainly delivered. butterflylabs has not shipped anything yet, nor have they proved they have working units, AFAIK.
 966 2013-03-26 11:59:25 <SomeoneWeird> correct
 967 2013-03-26 11:59:42 <Billdr> I think Luke has seen working units.
 968 2013-03-26 12:00:25 <Billdr> in their production run test rig
 969 2013-03-26 12:00:41 <sipa> qdii: you really shouldn't want to have only one address, the privacy implications are terrible
 970 2013-03-26 12:01:12 <qdii> I personally don’t, but a company might want to display clear accounting
 971 2013-03-26 12:01:34 <sipa> i don't mean their privacy, i mean the privacy of everyone using the system
 972 2013-03-26 12:01:54 <sipa> clear accounting is certainly beneficial, but it doesn't mean revealing everything to the whole world
 973 2013-03-26 12:05:43 <sipa> qdii: the payment protocol will hopefully make it soon a lot easier to have separate keys per transaction
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 979 2013-03-26 12:11:42 <cads> hey sipa, is there a #bitcoin-blah for laid back and intellectual discussions free of trolling and disrespect?
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 981 2013-03-26 12:18:40 <SomeoneWeird> cads, #bitcoin-offtopic?
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1016 2013-03-26 12:44:06 <Diablo-D3> https://bitmessage.org/wiki/Main_Page
1017 2013-03-26 12:44:09 <Diablo-D3> that looks interesting
1018 2013-03-26 12:44:15 <SomeoneWeird> yeah, I saw that posted on hn
1019 2013-03-26 12:44:18 <SomeoneWeird> i looks over it a bit
1020 2013-03-26 12:44:26 <SomeoneWeird> seems like it could work
1021 2013-03-26 12:44:32 <SomeoneWeird> s/looks/looked/
1022 2013-03-26 12:44:47 Exocyst has joined
1023 2013-03-26 12:45:19 <Diablo-D3> I dunno, maybe I really should just make a framework that does bitcoin-type POW chains
1024 2013-03-26 12:45:44 Detritus has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1025 2013-03-26 12:45:45 <Diablo-D3> does it correctly, securely, and easily
1026 2013-03-26 12:46:03 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1027 2013-03-26 12:46:19 <Diablo-D3> and have source and destination, not just destination
1028 2013-03-26 12:46:30 [\\\]_g has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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1030 2013-03-26 12:46:51 <SomeoneWeird> well, wouldn't you spam the chain
1031 2013-03-26 12:46:51 qwertyoruiop is now known as zz_qwertyoruiop
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1033 2013-03-26 12:48:17 <Diablo-D3> SomeoneWeird: kind of.
1034 2013-03-26 12:49:46 Detritus has joined
1035 2013-03-26 12:52:11 <Diablo-D3> SomeoneWeird: in a public chain, you'd probably have a basic currency
1036 2013-03-26 12:52:19 <Diablo-D3> not all chains would have to be public
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1038 2013-03-26 12:52:26 <SomeoneWeird> mm
1039 2013-03-26 12:53:09 <Diablo-D3> that, and you could have a subscriber type model
1040 2013-03-26 12:53:19 <Diablo-D3> and auto-forking chains
1041 2013-03-26 12:53:38 <abadr> How can I tell whether bitcoind is done syncing?
1042 2013-03-26 12:53:52 <Diablo-D3> abadr: bitcoin getinfo
1043 2013-03-26 12:53:53 <Diablo-D3> er
1044 2013-03-26 12:53:55 <Diablo-D3> bitcoind getinfo
1045 2013-03-26 12:53:59 <Diablo-D3> the blocks match the number of actual blocks
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1048 2013-03-26 12:54:25 <abadr> you're saying to get the number of actual blocks from somewhere external?
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1052 2013-03-26 12:54:34 <Diablo-D3> abadr: yeah
1053 2013-03-26 12:54:35 <Diablo-D3> ;;blocks
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1055 2013-03-26 12:54:36 <gribble> 228106
1056 2013-03-26 12:54:56 <Diablo-D3> I dont think theres an rpc command to tell if its done yet
1057 2013-03-26 12:54:59 <Diablo-D3> the GUI does it, though
1058 2013-03-26 12:55:07 <sipa> it is never done
1059 2013-03-26 12:55:13 <sipa> there will always be new blocks
1060 2013-03-26 12:55:16 <Diablo-D3> sipa: hurrr =P
1061 2013-03-26 12:55:41 <sipa> there are some heuristics for guessing whether you're certainly not done yet
1062 2013-03-26 12:55:52 zz_qwertyoruiop is now known as qwertyoruiop
1063 2013-03-26 12:55:57 <sipa> like looking at the age of the last block, or comparing with your peer's heights
1064 2013-03-26 12:56:03 <Diablo-D3> sipa: a new client asks for peer heights
1065 2013-03-26 12:56:04 <sipa> but there is no way to know you are done
1066 2013-03-26 12:56:10 <Diablo-D3> so it knows when its caught up
1067 2013-03-26 12:56:13 <abadr> I see
1068 2013-03-26 12:56:16 <sipa> peers can lie
1069 2013-03-26 12:56:33 <sipa> or can be not-yet-synced themself
1070 2013-03-26 12:56:46 <Diablo-D3> sipa: true, but if ALL your peers are lying, just give up now
1071 2013-03-26 12:57:19 <sipa> i'm saying that any check to see whether you're up-to-date is always a guess
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1073 2013-03-26 12:57:54 <sipa> because if there was a way of knowing that, we wouldn't need the blockchain at all, and we could use that mechanism to order transactions too
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1076 2013-03-26 12:58:44 <Diablo-D3> sipa: yeah, but you're just describing the issue with asynchronous messaging
1077 2013-03-26 12:58:51 <sipa> indeed
1078 2013-03-26 12:58:52 <Diablo-D3> which was already solved in the 60s by IBM
1079 2013-03-26 12:59:19 <sipa> by? central clock? quorum?
1080 2013-03-26 12:59:21 <Diablo-D3> Im actually wondering why it took so long for someone to invent Bitcoin
1081 2013-03-26 12:59:26 <sipa> neither of these apply to us
1082 2013-03-26 12:59:35 <Diablo-D3> sipa: all three
1083 2013-03-26 12:59:43 <abadr> heh
1084 2013-03-26 12:59:56 <Diablo-D3> central clock, quorum, and racing chain lengths
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1086 2013-03-26 13:00:19 <sipa> abadr: to answer your question in practice: look at the age of the last block
1087 2013-03-26 13:00:28 <abadr> got it. thanks sipa.
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1093 2013-03-26 13:02:39 <abadr> what's the value of "nextblockhash" from a "getblock" command if there are multiple next-blocks? (and where can i look to learn this kind of thing on my own?)
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1096 2013-03-26 13:03:48 <Diablo-D3> abadr: there are never multiple next blocks if you ignore chain forks that are not the selected one
1097 2013-03-26 13:04:47 <abadr> Diablo-D3: how would you recommend detecting chain forks?
1098 2013-03-26 13:04:57 <Diablo-D3> abadr: I wouldn't.
1099 2013-03-26 13:04:59 <Diablo-D3> I
1100 2013-03-26 13:05:03 <Diablo-D3> I'd leave the client do it's job
1101 2013-03-26 13:05:38 <abadr> Diablo-D3: what bitcoin-related software have you developed?
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1103 2013-03-26 13:05:52 <Diablo-D3> abadr: wrote DiabloMiner, the worlds most popular GPU miner
1104 2013-03-26 13:07:07 <sipa> abadr: nextblockhash refers to the next block in the currently active chain
1105 2013-03-26 13:07:41 <Diablo-D3> sipa: yeah but you cant fork surf with it
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1111 2013-03-26 13:09:35 <sipa> indeed
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1113 2013-03-26 13:10:00 <Diablo-D3> I think he wants to write a blockchain.info clone
1114 2013-03-26 13:10:03 <SomeoneWeird> <Diablo-D3> abadr: wrote DiabloMiner, the worlds most popular GPU miner < that might be a slight stretch
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1118 2013-03-26 13:10:16 <Diablo-D3> SomeoneWeird: remember, cgminer still uses my kernel =P
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1122 2013-03-26 13:10:32 <sipa> SomeoneWeird: everything that Diablo-D3 says is a slight stretch, don't worry about it
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1125 2013-03-26 13:10:47 <SomeoneWeird> Diablo-D3, oh well then
1126 2013-03-26 13:10:47 <SomeoneWeird> :P
1127 2013-03-26 13:10:52 <SomeoneWeird> oh, well then*
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1139 2013-03-26 13:21:58 <lodse> what happens during the "confirmation" of bitcoins to the wallet?
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1141 2013-03-26 13:22:10 <n1c> Could you be more specific?
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1143 2013-03-26 13:22:44 <lodse> when someone wires bitcoins to me it says they are not yet confirmed
1144 2013-03-26 13:22:53 <lodse> so there has to be some kind of confirmation
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1146 2013-03-26 13:23:20 <n1c> Yes.
1147 2013-03-26 13:23:37 <lodse> what exactly happens there
1148 2013-03-26 13:23:40 <n1c> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Confirmation
1149 2013-03-26 13:23:44 <lodse> thank you
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1152 2013-03-26 13:23:54 <n1c> np
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1183 2013-03-26 13:55:15 <rdponticelli> hardsoft: En #bitcoin-ar hablamos en español :)
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1216 2013-03-26 14:20:37 <sneak> zooko: hi
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1248 2013-03-26 14:41:59 <E1ven> I'm trying to understand the proof-of-work algorithm, as described at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Proof_of_work, but I'm getting a different number of 0s required than the website indicates. http://pastebin.ca/raw/2342676  I'm sure I'm doing something stupid, but I was hoping someone might advise to what it is. Perhaps the encoding?
1249 2013-03-26 14:43:15 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1250 2013-03-26 14:43:54 <Scrat> E1ven: shouldn't you reset the hash inside the loop?
1251 2013-03-26 14:44:07 * Scrat doesn't know python
1252 2013-03-26 14:44:15 <E1ven> Ah, damnit. I found it. I misread as appending 0s to the end, with an increasing number of them. Instead, I should be appending 1, then 2, then 3, etc.
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1256 2013-03-26 14:44:57 <gavinandresen> E1ven: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/contrib/pyminer/pyminer.py#L111   might give insight
1257 2013-03-26 14:45:59 <E1ven> That's much better written than my test, and helps explain it. Thanks!
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1283 2013-03-26 15:03:04 <E1ven> Thanks again!
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1316 2013-03-26 15:30:31 <abadr> is there a way to get the mac client to act like bitcoind (i.e. so I can send it commands) or do I have to compile my own?
1317 2013-03-26 15:30:43 <sipa> run with -server
1318 2013-03-26 15:32:16 <abadr> sipa: thanks again
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1323 2013-03-26 15:39:36 <gmaxwell> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=155476.msg1674347#msg1674347
1324 2013-03-26 15:41:11 <SomeoneWeird> bad nodes!
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1328 2013-03-26 15:43:45 <Diablo-D3> bad nodes bad nodes, whatcha gonna do when they come for you
1329 2013-03-26 15:44:28 <Diablo-D3> wait hold up
1330 2013-03-26 15:44:35 <Diablo-D3> someone ported bitcoin to erlang?
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1334 2013-03-26 15:46:30 <SomeoneWeird> that they did
1335 2013-03-26 15:47:01 safra has joined
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1342 2013-03-26 15:51:28 <abadr> that's awesome. i'ma throw some btc at them.
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1419 2013-03-26 16:55:32 <qdii> I wonder: would it be possible to switch from SHA256 to SHA512
1420 2013-03-26 16:55:35 <qdii> or sth similar
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1424 2013-03-26 16:55:57 <qdii> as the longest chain of block is the valid one, it would require that a majority of clients update
1425 2013-03-26 16:56:12 <sipa> qdii: no, it would require every client to upgrade
1426 2013-03-26 16:56:19 <qdii> and that cannot be done simultaneously
1427 2013-03-26 16:56:34 <qdii> sipa, actually, only 50% of the mining float, isn’t it?
1428 2013-03-26 16:56:38 <qdii> *fleet
1429 2013-03-26 16:56:38 <sipa> no, 100%
1430 2013-03-26 16:56:47 <sipa> of every single client
1431 2013-03-26 16:56:53 <qdii> I don’t see why
1432 2013-03-26 16:56:57 <sipa> bitcoin is not a democracy
1433 2013-03-26 16:57:21 <sipa> it's a consensus system where every node verifies every single rule individually, and each must reach the exact same conclusion
1434 2013-03-26 16:57:29 <qdii> I know, but if more than 50% of the clients and mining chain switch to the new version, then the longest chain of blocks is preserved
1435 2013-03-26 16:57:45 <sipa> but the new chain won't be valid to any old client
1436 2013-03-26 16:57:45 <qdii> so eventually, any client who upgrades will get it
1437 2013-03-26 16:57:48 <sipa> they'll just ignore it
1438 2013-03-26 16:57:53 <qdii> yea, until they upgrade
1439 2013-03-26 16:57:54 <sipa> and you have a fork
1440 2013-03-26 16:58:02 <grapevine> forks are bad mkay
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1442 2013-03-26 16:58:11 <abadr> sipa: isn't that what's happening with the block size increase?
1443 2013-03-26 16:58:13 <sipa> qdii: from their point of view, the others are simpy buggy
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1445 2013-03-26 16:58:34 <sipa> abadr: it's similar, but worse
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1448 2013-03-26 16:59:26 <sipa> abadr: in that switching hashing function is incompatible in both ways, immediately (old don't accept new, new don't accept old)
1449 2013-03-26 16:59:48 <sipa> abadr: increasing the block limit would make blocks mined by old clients still accepted by new ones
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1451 2013-03-26 17:00:03 <abadr> got it
1452 2013-03-26 17:00:24 <sipa> qdii: but 'majority' doesn't matter here: as soon as some nodes switch, they'll start a chain that is ignored by the others
1453 2013-03-26 17:00:39 <sipa> independent of how much hash power there is on either side, there will be two sides
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1455 2013-03-26 17:01:15 <sipa> and if the minority (whatever side that is) chooses not to switch to the rules of the majority, there will be two chains
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1457 2013-03-26 17:01:28 <sipa> so no, the only way to change something like that is when everyone upgrades
1458 2013-03-26 17:01:30 <qdii> sipa: okay, so say there is an upgrade that changes SHA256 to SHA512. The new clients start a chain that is ignored by the rest. Is that chain discarded?
1459 2013-03-26 17:01:44 <sipa> define 'discarded' ?
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1462 2013-03-26 17:02:17 <qdii> the new clients will keep it, the old clients will discard it
1463 2013-03-26 17:02:25 <qdii> consider it false
1464 2013-03-26 17:02:33 <sipa> yes
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1466 2013-03-26 17:02:51 <sipa> old clients will simply consider those blocks are weird pieces of data they see on the network
1467 2013-03-26 17:02:58 <sipa> and the other way around
1468 2013-03-26 17:03:07 <Diablo-D3> sha512? no
1469 2013-03-26 17:03:10 <Diablo-D3> if we go that route
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1471 2013-03-26 17:03:22 <sipa> also, there's absolutely no reason :)
1472 2013-03-26 17:03:24 <Diablo-D3> I make my own hash that does 1024
1473 2013-03-26 17:03:30 <sipa> moar bits!!!
1474 2013-03-26 17:03:43 <Diablo-D3> sipa: anti-qc :<
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1476 2013-03-26 17:04:21 <sipa> we have no idea what size of state quantum computers will ever be able to manage
1477 2013-03-26 17:04:23 <qdii> okay let's go one step deeper:  if there ever WAS to be an update, and we found ourselves with two coexisting versions of bitcoin. What happen to the transactions
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1479 2013-03-26 17:04:48 <qdii> theoretically. kick me off the chan if that's too boring :p
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1481 2013-03-26 17:05:09 <sipa> qdii: if there are two chains due to a disagreement between two sides of the network of nontrivial size, imho, bitcoin is dead
1482 2013-03-26 17:05:15 <sipa> as it means the consensus fails
1483 2013-03-26 17:05:34 <qdii> sipa: it only fails until all the clients upgrade
1484 2013-03-26 17:05:41 <qdii> this is a temporary situation
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1486 2013-03-26 17:05:55 <sipa> of course, so people have a very strong incentive to agree
1487 2013-03-26 17:05:59 <sipa> and compromise
1488 2013-03-26 17:06:01 np has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1489 2013-03-26 17:06:11 <sipa> but if a disagreement persists, we're done
1490 2013-03-26 17:06:19 <gavinandresen> When we have to hard-fork the network, we'll make sure there is consensus to upgrade and won't switch until there is consensus.
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1493 2013-03-26 17:06:44 <qdii> sure, I am talking about this case :)
1494 2013-03-26 17:06:57 <qdii> what happen to the transaction occurring during the upgrade time
1495 2013-03-26 17:07:05 <sipa> qdii: anyway, what would happen technically, is that you literally get two chains
1496 2013-03-26 17:07:14 <sipa> transactions can exist on either or both sides independently
1497 2013-03-26 17:07:29 <qdii> okay, so that makes the upgrade possible
1498 2013-03-26 17:07:45 <sipa> in case there are two conflicting transactions (double spends) one version can be confirmed on one side, and the other on another side
1499 2013-03-26 17:08:00 <sipa> every coin that existed before the split can be spent independently on both sides
1500 2013-03-26 17:09:14 <sipa> merchants would have an incentive to check whether your payment is confirmed on both sides before accepting it
1501 2013-03-26 17:09:39 rowit1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1502 2013-03-26 17:10:24 <gavinandresen> … but we wouldn't let it come to that.  Forks are bad.
1503 2013-03-26 17:10:48 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1504 2013-03-26 17:10:56 Belxjander has joined
1505 2013-03-26 17:11:01 <gmaxwell> "What if all the bitcoin users commit suicide at once??? What if???"
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1507 2013-03-26 17:11:11 <Diablo-D3> I'd be rich?
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1509 2013-03-26 17:11:53 i2pRelay has joined
1510 2013-03-26 17:11:54 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I'm working on a Hypno-Toad alert system for April 1 ….
1511 2013-03-26 17:12:47 rowit has joined
1512 2013-03-26 17:13:06 <saivann> Concerning bitcoin.org, I had in mind to create a team group for translations and another team group for redaction. But I wanted to validate this idea with you before. Do you think this is a good idea?
1513 2013-03-26 17:13:25 <sipa> gavinandresen: for april 1st, we should announce a hard spoon
1514 2013-03-26 17:13:46 <ThomasV> there is no spoon
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1518 2013-03-26 17:14:59 <petertodd> sipa: gavin, being an aussie, would be perfect to then follow up with a game of knifey spooney
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1532 2013-03-26 17:23:35 <donpdonp> please dont do any actual jokes regarding bitcoin. trust is paramount and jokes are easily misunderstood. <killjoy>
1533 2013-03-26 17:24:51 <Silox> _!~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|I have a question... If I have a local bitcoin pool, and I connect my cgminer to that pool
1534 2013-03-26 17:24:56 <Silox> _!~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|What happens if I mine a block?
1535 2013-03-26 17:25:05 <Silox> _!~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|Do the coins get added automaticly to my local wallet?
1536 2013-03-26 17:25:14 Silox is now known as _!~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|Silox|
1537 2013-03-26 17:25:24 <jgarzik> Silox|: they are added to the pool's wallet
1538 2013-03-26 17:25:32 <jgarzik> Silox|: unless you are using p2pool
1539 2013-03-26 17:25:41 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: "If I have a local bitcoin pool"
1540 2013-03-26 17:25:41 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|I'm using a local (solo) pool
1541 2013-03-26 17:25:43 user_corrupt has quit (Client Quit)
1542 2013-03-26 17:25:47 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1543 2013-03-26 17:25:48 <gmaxwell> Silox|: depends on the pool software.
1544 2013-03-26 17:25:54 Belxjander has joined
1545 2013-03-26 17:25:59 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|It's just the default bitcoind server
1546 2013-03-26 17:26:29 <gmaxwell> then that isn't pool software, it'll be added to the local wallet... though bitcoind+cgminer can't handle much hashrate.
1547 2013-03-26 17:26:46 <gmaxwell> In theory bitcoind+bfgminer should be good for infinite hashrate but there is currently some compatiblity issue.
1548 2013-03-26 17:26:46 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|It can't? :o
1549 2013-03-26 17:27:00 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|Well, I just get 2MHash anyway :'D
1550 2013-03-26 17:27:25 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1551 2013-03-26 17:27:26 <gmaxwell> well there you go, fine with 2MH/s. :P
1552 2013-03-26 17:27:46 <CodeShark> except with that kind of hashrate, you're better off playing the lottery
1553 2013-03-26 17:27:56 i2pRelay has joined
1554 2013-03-26 17:28:03 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|So I don't have to worry about the coins standing on the server and not on my wallet? :P
1555 2013-03-26 17:28:16 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|(I'll be switching to litecoin anyway when my blockchain is downloaded...)
1556 2013-03-26 17:28:26 <CodeShark> you probably don't have to worry about coins at all :p
1557 2013-03-26 17:28:34 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|;_;
1558 2013-03-26 17:28:47 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|It's just that I'll be switching to another machine soon with a decent GPU
1559 2013-03-26 17:28:49 <gmaxwell> Silox|: server?
1560 2013-03-26 17:28:51 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|Just testing out some stuff now :3
1561 2013-03-26 17:28:57 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|gmaxwell: Well, local server.
1562 2013-03-26 17:30:10 normanrichards has joined
1563 2013-03-26 17:30:44 <gmaxwell> Silox|: I'm not following what you're asking here. You say you have two piece of software: cgminer and bitcoind.  In that case, any generated coins would be in that bitcoind's wallet.
1564 2013-03-26 17:30:46 Sealy has quit (Quit: Sealy)
1565 2013-03-26 17:31:02 <gmaxwell> Then you say "standing on the server and not on my wallet"  and I don't know what you mean by server that isn't your wallet.
1566 2013-03-26 17:31:04 rowit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1567 2013-03-26 17:33:24 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|Well
1568 2013-03-26 17:33:29 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|Eh
1569 2013-03-26 17:33:53 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|Bitcoin is a wallet, but if you put server=1 in the config, it acts as a bitcoin server too, right?
1570 2013-03-26 17:34:15 testnode9 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1571 2013-03-26 17:34:29 <sipa> it is always 1) a p2p node  2) a wallet,  with -server it is also 3) an RPC server
1572 2013-03-26 17:34:39 <sipa> 1 and 3 do not affect the wallet at all
1573 2013-03-26 17:35:05 <gmaxwell> server=1 does nothing to bitcoind. It's a setting used to make the GUI version of the software also accept rpc connections. (e.g. makes the gui also do the stuff bitcoind does)
1574 2013-03-26 17:35:18 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|ah, i see o_o
1575 2013-03-26 17:35:27 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1576 2013-03-26 17:35:59 <sipa> oh yes, bitcoind always runs as an RPC server, it wouldn't be very useful otherwise
1577 2013-03-26 17:35:59 i2pRelay has joined
1578 2013-03-26 17:36:39 <CodeShark> it's useful as a trusted relay node :)
1579 2013-03-26 17:36:44 <sipa> true
1580 2013-03-26 17:36:46 TD has joined
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1582 2013-03-26 17:37:25 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: kinda hard to tell if its working without the rpc interfac.e
1583 2013-03-26 17:37:30 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|So if I run my bitcoin service and the rpc server, and I connect my miner to my localhost:8332 pool, where am I mining? :P
1584 2013-03-26 17:37:41 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: debug.log :)
1585 2013-03-26 17:38:07 <sipa> Silox|: what do you mean by 'where' ?
1586 2013-03-26 17:38:16 <CodeShark> in fact, I was using a few instances almost exclusively as trusted relay nodes - but I started requiring the RPC again so as not to have to maintain my own block tree for calculating confirmation counts
1587 2013-03-26 17:38:19 testnode9 has joined
1588 2013-03-26 17:38:38 CodesInChaos has joined
1589 2013-03-26 17:38:52 BTC_Bear is now known as BTC_Bear|hbrntng
1590 2013-03-26 17:39:46 zoinky has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1591 2013-03-26 17:40:33 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|sipa: Well, where from.
1592 2013-03-26 17:40:48 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1593 2013-03-26 17:40:50 ikbenwouter has joined
1594 2013-03-26 17:40:50 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|I'm mining solo if I'm mining like that, right?
1595 2013-03-26 17:40:55 Belxjander has joined
1596 2013-03-26 17:41:07 <CodeShark> localhost:8332 is not a pool
1597 2013-03-26 17:41:28 <sipa> Silox|: yes, and you'll likely never see a coin
1598 2013-03-26 17:41:30 * Luke-Jr wonders if we should support -server=0 on bitcoind :p
1599 2013-03-26 17:42:00 <Eliel> ... what would be the point in that?
1600 2013-03-26 17:42:09 space_cadet has joined
1601 2013-03-26 17:42:23 <gmaxwell> Turn off listening for the rpc.
1602 2013-03-26 17:42:34 <gmaxwell> e.g. for an unmonitored relaying node.
1603 2013-03-26 17:43:25 <CodeShark> it wouldn't hurt to allow server=0 as long as the default is server=1
1604 2013-03-26 17:43:34 <Eliel> if it turned off the wallet subsystem entirely, perhaps there'd be some use.
1605 2013-03-26 17:43:34 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1606 2013-03-26 17:43:43 <gmaxwell> Eliel: "why bother"
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1608 2013-03-26 17:44:40 <CodeShark> turning off the RPC server is not a feature I would particularly want - but moving the wallets to a separate process...would be great :)
1609 2013-03-26 17:45:17 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: turn off RPC + Armory = just that
1610 2013-03-26 17:45:47 <CodeShark> Armory requires parsing the datadir
1611 2013-03-26 17:45:54 <CodeShark> can't have that :)
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1617 2013-03-26 17:47:10 <CodeShark> and I want the RPC server
1618 2013-03-26 17:47:14 <CodeShark> I have no problem with that
1619 2013-03-26 17:47:31 <CodeShark> I can always restrict it to localhost and set a long, random password
1620 2013-03-26 17:48:08 benwoody_ has joined
1621 2013-03-26 17:48:27 <CodeShark> I want a full duplex trusted protocol for connecting wallets to trusted verification/relay nodes
1622 2013-03-26 17:48:48 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: It's called "ipsec"
1623 2013-03-26 17:48:54 <gmaxwell> :P
1624 2013-03-26 17:49:06 <Luke-Jr> I thought it was called the bitcoin p2p protocol :o
1625 2013-03-26 17:49:06 <CodeShark> that's a transport layer thing
1626 2013-03-26 17:49:07 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
1627 2013-03-26 17:49:14 <CodeShark> I'm talking about an application layer protocol
1628 2013-03-26 17:49:21 <CodeShark> re: ipsec
1629 2013-03-26 17:49:30 denisx has joined
1630 2013-03-26 17:49:33 <CodeShark> and as for the p2p protocol, it's not trusted
1631 2013-03-26 17:49:33 <sipa> CodeShark: P2P protocol, SPV mode?
1632 2013-03-26 17:49:39 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: if you're going to have remote wallets then they should probably themselves be at least SPV clients. People are totally stupid about "trusted" and SPV is quite cheap.
1633 2013-03-26 17:50:17 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: you can choose to trust it :P
1634 2013-03-26 17:50:29 <CodeShark> the p2p protocol can't give me confirmation counts on transactions
1635 2013-03-26 17:50:46 <CodeShark> nor query by txout script
1636 2013-03-26 17:51:01 <CodeShark> unless I maintain my own block tree
1637 2013-03-26 17:51:09 <CodeShark> which I guess the wallet client might have to do
1638 2013-03-26 17:51:24 <sipa> wait, are you talking about a protocol for talking to a wallet
1639 2013-03-26 17:51:32 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1640 2013-03-26 17:51:35 <sipa> or a protocol for letting a wallet connect to a verification node?
1641 2013-03-26 17:51:46 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: uh the p2p prtocol certantly does give you confirmation counts on transactions. :P
1642 2013-03-26 17:51:47 <CodeShark> both
1643 2013-03-26 17:51:51 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: well, you saw my attempt at such a protocol
1644 2013-03-26 17:51:57 <gmaxwell> but sure, it's not a thinwallet protocol.
1645 2013-03-26 17:52:04 i2pRelay has joined
1646 2013-03-26 17:52:12 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: yes, it does if you build your own block tree
1647 2013-03-26 17:52:14 <Luke-Jr> back in 2011
1648 2013-03-26 17:52:26 <sipa> CodeShark: just headers is enough
1649 2013-03-26 17:52:27 <CodeShark> yes, that's a good effort, Luke-Jr :)
1650 2013-03-26 17:52:30 <sipa> CodeShark: hence SPV
1651 2013-03-26 17:52:39 rowit has joined
1652 2013-03-26 17:52:48 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: "block tree" .. you just need to count headers. This is what a SPV node does and its quite liteweight operation.
1653 2013-03-26 17:52:52 <sipa> and yes, it's somewhat duplicated effort, but it's not exactly expensive
1654 2013-03-26 17:52:59 <sipa> and it already works
1655 2013-03-26 17:53:10 <sipa> and it transparently supports trusting a single server or the network
1656 2013-03-26 17:53:15 fishfish has quit (Quit: Zzzzz..zzzzz)
1657 2013-03-26 17:53:30 <CodeShark> you just need to count headers as long as there are no forks
1658 2013-03-26 17:53:40 <CodeShark> even a tiny fork requires slightly more complicated housekeeping
1659 2013-03-26 17:53:56 <sipa> yes, exactly what an SPV node does
1660 2013-03-26 17:54:45 <sipa> for each transaction, remember which block id you saw it in; query your block header db to see whether it's in the best chain and how deep
1661 2013-03-26 17:55:13 <CodeShark> yes, that's what I've been doing
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1664 2013-03-26 17:56:16 <CodeShark> there are a few more subtle edge cases - but the logic isn't too hard to work out
1665 2013-03-26 17:56:28 <sipa> so what's the problem?
1666 2013-03-26 17:57:16 testnode9 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1667 2013-03-26 17:57:42 <CodeShark> how do you query for your own transactions and make sure other nodes don't withhold them from you? Say you are running a trusted node and don't want to use bloom filters - you want to use a deterministic wallet
1668 2013-03-26 17:58:07 <CodeShark> how do you add such a filter?
1669 2013-03-26 17:58:14 benwoody_ has left ()
1670 2013-03-26 17:58:25 datagutt has joined
1671 2013-03-26 17:58:41 <sipa> you say you're trusting a node, so why would it withold anything?
1672 2013-03-26 17:58:54 topace has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1673 2013-03-26 17:59:28 <CodeShark> ok, forget about the withholding part - that only applies if you're not using a trusted node
1674 2013-03-26 17:59:34 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1675 2013-03-26 17:59:44 <sipa> SPV needs less trust than what you're asking for, and yes, if you trust the server you can do things more efficiently
1676 2013-03-26 17:59:58 <sipa> but it does work today
1677 2013-03-26 18:00:03 <Diablo-D3> holy shit
1678 2013-03-26 18:00:06 i2pRelay has joined
1679 2013-03-26 18:00:06 <Diablo-D3> I met a dvorak user
1680 2013-03-26 18:00:34 * donpdonp uses dvorak. its great. though today id say go with colmak
1681 2013-03-26 18:00:52 <jaakkos> i think the SPV's peers could certainly hide them from you. but i think that would require that all of its peers would conspire against the SPV.
1682 2013-03-26 18:00:54 <Diablo-D3> I dont get why people say its faster or causes less strain
1683 2013-03-26 18:01:13 <sipa> CodeShark: i generally don't like the idea of servers needing to fully-index the whole chain to facilitate some wallet functions for their clients
1684 2013-03-26 18:01:17 <jaakkos> s/you/the SPV/
1685 2013-03-26 18:01:35 <sipa> CodeShark: sure, that's useful for debugging, and for some purposes i suppose it's inevitable
1686 2013-03-26 18:01:41 <sipa> CodeShark: but i don't think we need it
1687 2013-03-26 18:02:28 naidraug has joined
1688 2013-03-26 18:02:53 <amiller> uh simple question that i'm sure's been discussed here before... but if i'm going to have a hundred txinputs that i want to collect, that all go to the same address and can therefore be spent with the same signature, is there any way i can get compression?
1689 2013-03-26 18:03:05 <jaakkos> CodeShark: further, if all of the SPV's peers would conspire to not give the matching txs, it's no different from running a full node whose peers all conspire against it
1690 2013-03-26 18:03:13 <amiller> i explored this by playing aorund with bitcoind createrawtransaction and so on and it appears that i don't get to reuse signatures
1691 2013-03-26 18:03:17 <CodeShark> sipa: I guess this all came out of a specific application I had which was the need to accept payments without having to store any private keys on the same server as the one that processes the payments
1692 2013-03-26 18:03:39 <sipa> CodeShark: sure, watch-only wallets are perfectly possible?
1693 2013-03-26 18:03:44 <sipa> amiller: no
1694 2013-03-26 18:04:04 <sipa> amiller: every input needs its own signature, unfortunatelt
1695 2013-03-26 18:04:15 ineededausername has joined
1696 2013-03-26 18:04:24 <CodeShark> sipa: but a full-blown wallet isn't even necessary for this - a simple filter is sufficient
1697 2013-03-26 18:04:28 <gmaxwell> ugh. wtf. apparently the gentoo package for bitcoin is unbundling leveldb
1698 2013-03-26 18:04:38 <sipa> gmaxwell: why do you think that is?
1699 2013-03-26 18:04:42 testnode9 has joined
1700 2013-03-26 18:04:53 <CodeShark> a filter along with perhaps some block tree management stuff (to obviate the need for RPC and txindex)
1701 2013-03-26 18:04:59 space_cadet has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1702 2013-03-26 18:05:25 <sipa> CodeShark: yes, i agree, an SPV wallet is too much for this, but it's very flexible and not really resource-intensive
1703 2013-03-26 18:06:12 <gmaxwell> sipa: because they want to cause network forks?
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1710 2013-03-26 18:07:50 <CodeShark> sipa: so then the architecture you're proposing is something like bitcoind <--p2p protocol--> SPV wallet <--wallet protocol--> application
1711 2013-03-26 18:08:08 i2pRelay has joined
1712 2013-03-26 18:08:09 <sipa> CodeShark: yeah
1713 2013-03-26 18:08:24 <sipa> making the bitcoind in front even optional
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1718 2013-03-26 18:10:05 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: Dude, what the fuck are you doing to gentoo?  Patching bitcoin to use a "system" leveldb and then using a different version that master is exactly the kind of stupidity will result in forks like the BDB created one.
1719 2013-03-26 18:10:33 <CodeShark> as long as the application can subscribe to realtime alerts for any changes to status of transactions it cares about, I could dig this :)
1720 2013-03-26 18:10:48 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1722 2013-03-26 18:11:13 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: it is the same version
1723 2013-03-26 18:11:20 polrpaul has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1724 2013-03-26 18:11:46 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: the ebuild says =dev-libs/leveldb-1.9.0*
1725 2013-03-26 18:12:00 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: yes, and that compared line-for-line with what was in the release IIRC
1726 2013-03-26 18:12:01 <sipa> we're using 1.9 too
1727 2013-03-26 18:12:29 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: okay, great, so what happens when someone pushes an updated copy to the system?
1728 2013-03-26 18:12:49 <sipa> i guess the = means the package depends on exactly that version
1729 2013-03-26 18:12:50 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: Portage won't let them
1730 2013-03-26 18:13:10 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: Whats the wildcard then?
1731 2013-03-26 18:13:18 <Luke-Jr> 1.9.0.1 for instance
1732 2013-03-26 18:13:31 <Luke-Jr> or (probably more likely) 1.9.0-r1
1733 2013-03-26 18:13:32 <gmaxwell> fantastic, and when 1.9.0.1 changes behavior?
1734 2013-03-26 18:13:41 <Luke-Jr> it shouldn't.
1735 2013-03-26 18:13:44 <gmaxwell> er 1.9.0.n rather.
1736 2013-03-26 18:13:49 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1737 2013-03-26 18:13:54 <CodeShark> "It shouldn't" - famous last words
1738 2013-03-26 18:14:18 <aceat64> wait, people run gentoo on production stuff?
1739 2013-03-26 18:14:29 <gmaxwell> If it didn't change _something_ it wouldn't exist, and whomever is releasing it is probably unaware of our particular requirements. For example a bdb version might change the lock count supported.
1740 2013-03-26 18:15:05 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: if it changed the lock count supported, it would be an incompatible change, not a 1.9.0.n :p
1741 2013-03-26 18:15:15 <Luke-Jr> at least, if it reduced it
1742 2013-03-26 18:15:30 <Luke-Jr> and increasing it wouldn't have had any relevance since we explicitly set it
1743 2013-03-26 18:15:32 * qdii uses gentoo to
1744 2013-03-26 18:15:37 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1745 2013-03-26 18:15:45 * qdii shows some support
1746 2013-03-26 18:15:47 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: Right, but _increasing_ it would have broken bitcoin. (well for example, requring less internal locks so that locks go further)
1747 2013-03-26 18:16:09 i2pRelay has joined
1748 2013-03-26 18:16:11 <CodeShark> any change, no matter how small or subtle, has the potential to fork
1749 2013-03-26 18:16:14 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: yes, but even still, such a change would never make sense in a 1.9.0.n
1750 2013-03-26 18:16:48 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: sure it would   "transactions failing that modify fewer than LOCKS rows due to cross page locking. Handle multiple pages with a single lock."
1751 2013-03-26 18:16:50 warren has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1752 2013-03-26 18:16:58 <Luke-Jr> 1.9.n might be open to various interpretations, but when has the 4th number ever been open to non-fixes?
1753 2013-03-26 18:17:08 <gmaxwell> What I'm describing there is a fix.
1754 2013-03-26 18:17:26 <gmaxwell> In the same way that 0.8.x bitcoin "fixed" limitations in 0.7 accidentally.
1755 2013-03-26 18:17:30 <Luke-Jr> sigh
1756 2013-03-26 18:17:52 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: does LevelDB even use 1.9.0.n?
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1758 2013-03-26 18:18:12 <sipa> i've never seen the 3rd digit being used
1759 2013-03-26 18:18:18 <gmaxwell> Indeed.
1760 2013-03-26 18:19:36 <gmaxwell> This doesn't change the fact that pure bug fixes in a complicated non-bitcoin library may cause forks, because we have a very different defintion of required behavior than just about any other caller.  Hopefully we don't depend on any weird edge cases in leveldb ... but it's really hard to know.
1761 2013-03-26 18:20:13 <sipa> if anything, any failure in leveldb now should cause bitcoind to abort and shutdown
1762 2013-03-26 18:20:17 <sipa> rather than mark a chain invalid
1763 2013-03-26 18:20:42 <sipa> so any reachable limitation within leveldb is at most a DDoS risk, but not chain-forking
1764 2013-03-26 18:20:45 <sipa> ... in theory
1765 2013-03-26 18:20:54 <gmaxwell> would probably be fun to do some testing on that.
1766 2013-03-26 18:20:59 <tockitj> gmaxwell is like wizard of Oz
1767 2013-03-26 18:21:12 testnode9 has joined
1768 2013-03-26 18:21:30 <sipa> well i've certainly done leveldb database transactions that affected millions of bitcoin txids
1769 2013-03-26 18:21:36 <sipa> so it won't be anything similar
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1771 2013-03-26 18:22:14 <sipa> this worries me: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/8718/what-does-reindexing-blocks-on-disk-mean
1772 2013-03-26 18:22:15 <gmaxwell> sipa: Of course! it'll be modifiying too few transactions on an alternative tuesday leap day when the 4th transaction contains too many consecutive zero bytes.
1773 2013-03-26 18:22:27 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: so, you think the practical risk is large enough that I should manually whitelist each and every build revision?
1774 2013-03-26 18:22:50 <sipa> imho, depending on =1.9.0 is reasonably safe
1775 2013-03-26 18:23:17 <sipa> wth does a reindex need 4 days for, and results in a corrupted chain
1776 2013-03-26 18:23:23 <sipa> what hardware do people have?
1777 2013-03-26 18:23:25 <Luke-Jr> sipa: failing HD?
1778 2013-03-26 18:23:27 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I think gentoo is probably not enough of a hazard by itself that I'm mostly concerned with the practice not the specific instance.
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1780 2013-03-26 18:23:46 <sipa> i don't understand why this person wouldn't have tons of trouble already with his system
1781 2013-03-26 18:23:48 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ?
1782 2013-03-26 18:24:00 <Luke-Jr> sipa: you'd be surprised..
1783 2013-03-26 18:24:04 <gmaxwell> sipa: so, it sounds to me that leveldb is not unexpected-shutdown durable on either osx or windows, since I've heard several reports of corrupted databases on each after an unclean shutdown.
1784 2013-03-26 18:24:11 i2pRelay has joined
1785 2013-03-26 18:24:17 <sipa> gmaxwell: yeah :(
1786 2013-03-26 18:24:52 <sipa> the only way i could ever reproduce a corruption myself, was by writing random bytes to the .sst files
1787 2013-03-26 18:24:57 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: not a large enough percentage of miners / network nodes on your gentoo build to create a serious fork risk.
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1791 2013-03-26 18:26:45 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I'd say even if 100% were using it, the risk would be quite low. First, someone would have to make a fix that creates an incompatibility; then, they would need to release it using the 4th integer for the first time ever; next, the Gentoo LevelDB maintainer would need to update the version in Gentoo; before it got to stable, it would have undergone months of testing, generally with every package that depends on it
1792 2013-03-26 18:27:20 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: what other packages in gentoo use leveldb?
1793 2013-03-26 18:28:49 <Luke-Jr> dev-libs/replicant and net-misc/elliptics
1794 2013-03-26 18:29:29 <Luke-Jr> I'd say Bitcoin-Qt is probably the most common depender
1795 2013-03-26 18:29:39 <Luke-Jr> surprised Chromium doesn't use it O.o
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1823 2013-03-26 18:49:07 <bitvoix> can anyone shed some light on something for me? I sent a bitcoin transaction yesterday around 7:30 AM (about 31 hours ago). It was for 0.5 BTC with a single input and a single output, 200 bytes.
1824 2013-03-26 18:49:16 <bitvoix> it hasn't been confirmed yet, but shows up on blockchain
1825 2013-03-26 18:49:34 <CodeShark> what was the fee?
1826 2013-03-26 18:49:39 <bitvoix> no fee
1827 2013-03-26 18:49:47 <bitvoix> but the Tx was very small
1828 2013-03-26 18:49:52 <sipa> what software did you send it with?
1829 2013-03-26 18:49:54 <bitvoix> in byte size
1830 2013-03-26 18:49:57 <bitvoix> electrum
1831 2013-03-26 18:50:14 <bitvoix> it shows up on blockchain.info
1832 2013-03-26 18:50:18 <bitvoix> unconfirmed
1833 2013-03-26 18:50:30 <CodeShark> does it depend on any unconfirmed transactions?
1834 2013-03-26 18:50:37 <bitvoix> hmm
1835 2013-03-26 18:50:41 <bitvoix> I think it did at one point
1836 2013-03-26 18:50:45 <bitvoix> but not anymore
1837 2013-03-26 18:50:55 <CodeShark> check all its inputs - make sure they are all confirmed
1838 2013-03-26 18:50:58 <bitvoix> ok thanks
1839 2013-03-26 18:50:59 <sipa> i wonder what electrum's rebroadcast policy is
1840 2013-03-26 18:51:01 <sipa> ThomasV: ?
1841 2013-03-26 18:54:08 discrete has joined
1842 2013-03-26 18:54:31 <bitvoix> actually, it did get a confirmation recently
1843 2013-03-26 18:54:40 <bitvoix> but it took 30.2 hours.
1844 2013-03-26 18:55:01 <CodeShark> when were its inputs confirmed?
1845 2013-03-26 18:55:15 <bitvoix> I would understand that for a tx with multiple inputs or outputs, but this one was only 225 bytes
1846 2013-03-26 18:55:43 <CodeShark> when was its last-to-be-confirmed input confirmed?
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1849 2013-03-26 18:55:54 <sipa> CodeShark: that doesn't really matter
1850 2013-03-26 18:55:56 Belxjander has joined
1851 2013-03-26 18:56:14 <CodeShark> sipa: sure it does - if it depends on some huge transaction with low priority
1852 2013-03-26 18:56:17 i2pRelay has joined
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1854 2013-03-26 18:56:23 <sipa> right
1855 2013-03-26 18:56:34 <bitvoix> checking on that.
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1859 2013-03-26 19:00:51 <CodeShark> as an aside, isn't the comma the right punctuation mark for vocative cases?
1860 2013-03-26 19:00:55 <CodeShark> not the colon?
1861 2013-03-26 19:02:05 * CodeShark is not a grammarian but is fairly certain that's the case in written English.
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1863 2013-03-26 19:02:18 <helo> all i know is that a semicolon is only appropriate if it divides two complete sentences
1864 2013-03-26 19:02:21 <bitvoix> either one is fine
1865 2013-03-26 19:02:27 <bitvoix> right
1866 2013-03-26 19:02:50 <bitvoix> comma is probably safer
1867 2013-03-26 19:03:15 <CodeShark> the colon seems to suggest the person mentioned is the speaker of the text
1868 2013-03-26 19:03:22 <CodeShark> not the one being called
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1871 2013-03-26 19:04:02 <CodeShark> I guess I should take this to the #online-chat-grammar channel
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1884 2013-03-26 19:17:34 <midnightmagic> CodeShark: It is a form of the vocative. colon is used in formal address also. "To Whom It May Concern:"
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1887 2013-03-26 19:19:55 <midnightmagic> CodeShark: So it's a .. I guess they call it a salutation form.
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1890 2013-03-26 19:21:07 <gmaxwell> Man, it's really easy for someone trying this sequence: <create new wallet> <encrypt> <increase keypool> <backup>   to mess up. In particular, you have to remember to unlock between increase keypool and backup or you won't manage to backup your encrypted keypool.
1891 2013-03-26 19:21:08 <CodeShark> English is a very irregular language :)
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1894 2013-03-26 19:24:03 <CodeShark> the timed unlock is a little annoying - it's one of my least favorite parts of the RPC, actually :p
1895 2013-03-26 19:24:22 <CodeShark> I'd rather just supply the unlock passphrase each time I want to sign a transaction
1896 2013-03-26 19:24:24 twobitcoins has joined
1897 2013-03-26 19:25:00 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: so put 1 second :P
1898 2013-03-26 19:25:08 <CodeShark> 1 second?
1899 2013-03-26 19:25:21 <CodeShark> it just adds more things that can go wrong
1900 2013-03-26 19:25:27 <CodeShark> what if there's a delay in the transport?
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1903 2013-03-26 19:26:00 <CodeShark> I have to write code around that now to check whether or not it was still locked when I called the RPC the second time
1904 2013-03-26 19:26:11 <CodeShark> therefore, I never use the encryption feature for remote wallets
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1906 2013-03-26 19:26:34 <CodeShark> only for interactive CLI sessions
1907 2013-03-26 19:27:28 <CodeShark> I don't even use it for local wallets I access programmatically
1908 2013-03-26 19:27:30 <CodeShark> too much of a pain
1909 2013-03-26 19:27:35 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: you can set the timeout to some enormous number.
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1911 2013-03-26 19:27:44 <CodeShark> then what's the point, gmaxwell?
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1913 2013-03-26 19:28:09 <CodeShark> the right access controls should mean you supply a username and passphrase and set permissions on wallets based on user accounts
1914 2013-03-26 19:28:14 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: because when your VPS provider gets social engineered into rebooting your session and changing the root password, the hacker is out of luck
1915 2013-03-26 19:28:26 <CodeShark> lol
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1917 2013-03-26 19:28:33 <CodeShark> I don't keep large amounts on VPSes
1918 2013-03-26 19:28:37 <gmaxwell> or when your disk ends up on ebay someone who scans it for keys it out of luck.
1919 2013-03-26 19:29:02 <aceat64> so is 0.0005 still the recommended fee? If so, I'm thinking it should be lower now.
1920 2013-03-26 19:29:39 <aceat64> 0.0001?
1921 2013-03-26 19:29:59 <CodeShark> I'd like to be able to create user accounts that have read-only permissions and others that have full signing privileges for a wallet
1922 2013-03-26 19:29:59 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: "remote wallets" aren't really supported
1923 2013-03-26 19:30:19 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr: sure they are - as long as you don't use encryption :)
1924 2013-03-26 19:30:34 <CodeShark> and as long as you stick a proxy layer in between for access controls
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1926 2013-03-26 19:32:05 <CodeShark> I've had a few instances where I restrict the RPC to getbalance, getreceivedbyaddress, etc...
1927 2013-03-26 19:32:09 <CodeShark> and block send
1928 2013-03-26 19:32:59 <aceat64> CodeShark: I wrote a PHP script that does basically the same thing
1929 2013-03-26 19:33:16 <CodeShark> yeah, it's a very thin wrapper
1930 2013-03-26 19:33:18 <aceat64> proxy the RPC connection, allow only certain methods, etc
1931 2013-03-26 19:33:51 <CodeShark> it's good practice :)
1932 2013-03-26 19:34:15 <jgarzik> using the raw RPC API, you quickly give up on the internal account system
1933 2013-03-26 19:34:50 <aceat64> I don't think I've ever really used the internal account system to begin with
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1939 2013-03-26 19:37:51 <helo> sipa: i can get you the end of my debug.log this evening if you want it
1940 2013-03-26 19:38:15 <helo> it also hit a double-free and aborted, btw
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1952 2013-03-26 19:44:07 <gmaxwell> It's been oddly stable for me while running in gdb again.
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1954 2013-03-26 19:44:57 <iwilcox> Heisenbug.
1955 2013-03-26 19:45:29 <CodeShark> a bug that ceases to exist when you look for it?
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2031 2013-03-26 20:52:13 <EvilPete_> hmm.. do we have a file descriptor leak?
2032 2013-03-26 20:52:16 <EvilPete_> ERROR: CAddrman::Write() : open failed
2033 2013-03-26 20:52:16 <EvilPete_> Flushed 14328 addresses to peers.dat  44ms
2034 2013-03-26 20:52:16 <EvilPete_> ERROR: CAddrman::Write() : open failed
2035 2013-03-26 20:52:16 <EvilPete_> Flushed 14328 addresses to peers.dat  43ms
2036 2013-03-26 20:52:18 <EvilPete_> .
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2038 2013-03-26 20:53:01 <EvilPete_> ERROR: SetBestBlock() : ConnectBlock 000000000000004ff1a370b94c25697d3b38d5a0bdc486b9ff12b520ed7fcc5d failed
2039 2013-03-26 20:53:01 <EvilPete_> Flush(false)
2040 2013-03-26 20:53:01 <EvilPete_> DBFlush(false) ended               0ms
2041 2013-03-26 20:53:01 <EvilPete_> ERROR: AcceptBlock() : AddToBlockIndex failed
2042 2013-03-26 20:53:01 <EvilPete_> ERROR: ProcessBlock() : AcceptBlock FAILED
2043 2013-03-26 20:53:02 <EvilPete_> StopNode()
2044 2013-03-26 20:53:02 <EvilPete_> ThreadMessageHandler exited
2045 2013-03-26 20:53:03 <EvilPete_> ThreadSocketHandler exited
2046 2013-03-26 20:53:03 <EvilPete_> ThreadOpenConnections exited
2047 2013-03-26 20:53:04 <EvilPete_> ERROR: CAddrman::Write() : open failed
2048 2013-03-26 20:54:55 Xeno-Genesis has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2049 2013-03-26 20:55:39 <chazmichaels> What client version?
2050 2013-03-26 20:55:48 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2051 2013-03-26 20:55:55 Belxjander has joined
2052 2013-03-26 20:56:12 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2053 2013-03-26 20:56:14 <TheSeven> EvilPete_: my spam catcher bot would have kicked you :P
2054 2013-03-26 20:56:44 i2pRelay has joined
2055 2013-03-26 20:56:55 <CodeShark> yeah, better to post those logs in a paste site
2056 2013-03-26 20:57:07 <gmaxwell> EvilPete_: have you set your maximum connections to 1000?
2057 2013-03-26 20:57:35 sgstair has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2058 2013-03-26 20:57:48 Exocyst has joined
2059 2013-03-26 20:57:53 <EvilPete_> urg. fail.  should have read further back
2060 2013-03-26 20:58:12 <EvilPete_> 0.8.0 official OSX
2061 2013-03-26 20:58:19 sgstair has joined
2062 2013-03-26 20:58:34 <EvilPete_> received block 000000000000004ff1a370b94c25697d3b38d5a0bdc486b9ff12b520ed7fcc5d
2063 2013-03-26 20:58:35 <EvilPete_> Unable to open file /Users/peter/Library/Application Support/Bitcoin/blocks/rev00010.dat
2064 2013-03-26 20:58:48 <gmaxwell> EvilPete_: stop with the pasting.
2065 2013-03-26 20:59:02 <gmaxwell> EvilPete_: have you adjusted any of the settings, in particular max connections?
2066 2013-03-26 20:59:22 ThomasV_ has joined
2067 2013-03-26 20:59:23 <gmaxwell> Are you out of diskspace? (I guess not, as it should detect that— but seems prudent to ask)
2068 2013-03-26 20:59:24 Xeno-Genesis__ has joined
2069 2013-03-26 21:00:34 <qdii> "can you assume you didn’t assume that the code was bugged first" ?
2070 2013-03-26 21:01:08 CaptainBlaze has joined
2071 2013-03-26 21:01:19 meLon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2072 2013-03-26 21:01:26 <gmaxwell> qdii: I like that.
2073 2013-03-26 21:01:35 BlackPrapor has quit (2!~kvirc@h31-8-169-54.dyn.bashtel.ru|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2074 2013-03-26 21:01:38 RoboTeddy has joined
2075 2013-03-26 21:01:41 <EvilPete_> It's a single connection client with
2076 2013-03-26 21:01:42 <EvilPete_> connect=10.0.0.3:8333
2077 2013-03-26 21:02:23 <gmaxwell> EvilPete_: and it caught fire after {xx fill in the blank xx}.
2078 2013-03-26 21:02:42 <EvilPete_> 50% full disk.. its been running for 2 weeks..
2079 2013-03-26 21:02:52 Xeno-Genesis_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2080 2013-03-26 21:02:59 <EvilPete_> It has thrown this error before though.. Undo buffer failure
2081 2013-03-26 21:03:03 bakingbread has joined
2082 2013-03-26 21:03:36 Adelex has joined
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2084 2013-03-26 21:04:15 <gmaxwell> EvilPete_: where did you see that error? do you have a log of the exact error?
2085 2013-03-26 21:04:29 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
2086 2013-03-26 21:04:45 i2pRelay has joined
2087 2013-03-26 21:04:50 stanley has joined
2088 2013-03-26 21:04:59 BTC_Bear has quit (Excess Flood)
2089 2013-03-26 21:05:49 PhantomSpark has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2090 2013-03-26 21:06:10 PhantomSpark has joined
2091 2013-03-26 21:07:39 bakingbread has quit (Client Quit)
2092 2013-03-26 21:07:51 ThomasV_ has quit (Quit: Quitte)
2093 2013-03-26 21:08:14 ThomasV has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2094 2013-03-26 21:08:40 ThomasV has joined
2095 2013-03-26 21:08:50 <EvilPete_> gmaxwell: http://pastebin.com/Tw5VbcD2  (with a little more back history and the clean startup afterwards)
2096 2013-03-26 21:09:53 <gmaxwell> EvilPete_: did you explicitly shut it down in that log?
2097 2013-03-26 21:10:44 Xeno-Genesis__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2098 2013-03-26 21:10:47 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2099 2013-03-26 21:10:48 <EvilPete_> gmaxwell: No, it crashed and exited
2100 2013-03-26 21:10:54 Belxjander has joined
2101 2013-03-26 21:11:04 EvilPete_ is now known as EvilPete
2102 2013-03-26 21:11:25 cron0 has quit ()
2103 2013-03-26 21:11:47 <gmaxwell> EvilPete: what does crashed mean? Do you just mean "it exited on it its own" or?
2104 2013-03-26 21:12:13 Xeno-Genesis has joined
2105 2013-03-26 21:12:15 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2106 2013-03-26 21:12:35 user_corrupt has quit (Quit: user_corrupt)
2107 2013-03-26 21:12:47 i2pRelay has joined
2108 2013-03-26 21:15:08 <EvilPete> gmaxwell: popped up a Qt dialog saying..  "OpenUndoFile failed", my recollection was the main window was already gone.  My public bitcoind (in front of this one) is still running fine and has a longer uptime.
2109 2013-03-26 21:16:01 <gmaxwell> EvilPete: thanks.
2110 2013-03-26 21:17:26 chazmichaels has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2111 2013-03-26 21:17:30 <EvilPete> The only thing unusual about it is that it uses a connect=10.x.x.x:8333 and doesn't talk to the public,
2112 2013-03-26 21:17:36 meLon has joined
2113 2013-03-26 21:17:57 <gmaxwell> and 10.x.x.x is your public node I assume?
2114 2013-03-26 21:18:15 <gmaxwell> I'll see if I can spot any issues on a similarly configured node. Nothing else in your configuration?
2115 2013-03-26 21:18:20 <EvilPete> The inward facing interface on my public node, yes.. maintains about 200-300 connections.
2116 2013-03-26 21:19:10 Guest91652 is now known as ageis
2117 2013-03-26 21:19:23 <EvilPete> the one that crashed has.. connect/rpcuser/rpcpass, txindex=1, and a paytxfee line.. that's it.
2118 2013-03-26 21:19:36 <gmaxwell> 200-300? On your public node? are these nodes running on the same system/account?
2119 2013-03-26 21:19:53 <gmaxwell> (maybe there is a per-user maximum open files limit on osx?!)
2120 2013-03-26 21:20:17 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2121 2013-03-26 21:20:47 b00tkitz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2122 2013-03-26 21:20:49 i2pRelay has joined
2123 2013-03-26 21:20:57 <EvilPete> public node runs on a bsd unix box with many many connections at any given time of the day.  the one that crashed was a single bitcoin-qt on osx talking to the public node over a vpn.
2124 2013-03-26 21:21:39 <gmaxwell> EvilPete: what prevents things from connecting to it?
2125 2013-03-26 21:24:16 b00tkitz has joined
2126 2013-03-26 21:24:22 <EvilPete> There's no 8333 hole to my home machines, that's all.  It only has the connect line and it seems quite happy to play in its own little world.
2127 2013-03-26 21:24:31 bitvoix has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2128 2013-03-26 21:24:39 meLon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2129 2013-03-26 21:25:29 firstworld has left ()
2130 2013-03-26 21:25:48 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2131 2013-03-26 21:25:54 btcur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2132 2013-03-26 21:25:56 Belxjander has joined
2133 2013-03-26 21:27:46 user_corrupt has joined
2134 2013-03-26 21:27:58 <EvilPete> gmaxwell: lsof doesn't look too unusual for it.  I'll keep an eye on it.  After a fresh start it has 270 descriptors open out of 4800 limit
2135 2013-03-26 21:28:14 meLon_ has joined
2136 2013-03-26 21:28:20 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2137 2013-03-26 21:28:33 <gmaxwell> 270 sounds very high.
2138 2013-03-26 21:28:46 <gmaxwell> lsof -np on a node here gives me 63.
2139 2013-03-26 21:28:51 i2pRelay has joined
2140 2013-03-26 21:28:59 <EvilPete> I do have txindex on though.
2141 2013-03-26 21:29:06 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
2142 2013-03-26 21:29:36 <gmaxwell> so do I.. actually, sorry though 203  (63 was the gdb process it was running inside)
2143 2013-03-26 21:30:15 <EvilPete> bah, I was counting mmap as a reference.  maxfd is 214
2144 2013-03-26 21:30:16 qdii has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2145 2013-03-26 21:30:27 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: "leveldb 0.9.0.1 'uses fewer FDs'" :P
2146 2013-03-26 21:30:46 <EvilPete> chainstate/283099.sst blocks/index/030182.sst etc
2147 2013-03-26 21:30:46 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ⁈
2148 2013-03-26 21:31:46 randy-waterhouse has joined
2149 2013-03-26 21:31:52 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I'm kidding.
2150 2013-03-26 21:33:15 <EvilPete> Speculation: txindex=1 adds a transient fd spike while processing blocks and that blows up bitcoin-qt on osx
2151 2013-03-26 21:33:44 <gmaxwell> But this is somewhat interesting, I'm seeing 98 open FDs alone on /chainstate. Looks like when the databases become large enough leveldb could start running nodes out of file descriptors.
2152 2013-03-26 21:34:00 <EvilPete> it's not growing in fd count currently. I will watch it.
2153 2013-03-26 21:34:48 <EvilPete> The block that choked it the first time around (and caused the abort) was perfectly acceptable the second time.
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2174 2013-03-26 21:53:30 <flyingkiwiguy> taking 3secs to flush my wallet - tad too many tx in it
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2179 2013-03-26 21:58:06 Conflict has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2182 2013-03-26 22:00:57 i2pRelay has joined
2183 2013-03-26 22:03:59 Blaster_ has joined
2184 2013-03-26 22:04:11 <Blaster_> hi, does encrypting a wallet file make the unencrypted backups obsolete?
2185 2013-03-26 22:05:27 <iwilcox> You mean, is encryption anywhere but on disk?  Like, you're thinking the network might know you'd encrypted?
2186 2013-03-26 22:06:23 <gmaxwell> Blaster_: Yes sir!
2187 2013-03-26 22:06:31 xenesis has quit (Quit: xenesis)
2188 2013-03-26 22:06:31 <gmaxwell> Blaster_: you need to backup again after encrypting.
2189 2013-03-26 22:06:39 <Blaster_> damn really
2190 2013-03-26 22:06:46 <Blaster_> because I encrypted my wallet, and then somehow lost the passphrase
2191 2013-03-26 22:06:56 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2192 2013-03-26 22:07:00 <Blaster_> so I am seeing if I can somehow get the unencrypted wallet.dat using forensics
2193 2013-03-26 22:07:38 <gmaxwell> Blaster_: well wait— if you had funds in your wallet prior to the encryption and have sent no more...
2194 2013-03-26 22:07:45 <gmaxwell> Blaster_: then the old backup will still have those funds.
2195 2013-03-26 22:07:58 <gmaxwell> but it won't have funds sent to any addresses you got out of the wallet after encrypting.
2196 2013-03-26 22:07:58 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2197 2013-03-26 22:08:01 <gmaxwell> Make sense?
2198 2013-03-26 22:08:15 <Blaster_> I am a bit confused still
2199 2013-03-26 22:08:24 <Blaster_> I received bitcoins, then encrypted the wallet.
2200 2013-03-26 22:08:26 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2201 2013-03-26 22:08:39 <Blaster_> do I need a copy of wallet.dat from after I received the coins, but before I encrypted the wallet?
2202 2013-03-26 22:08:57 <iwilcox> No.
2203 2013-03-26 22:08:58 gwoplock has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2204 2013-03-26 22:08:59 i2pRelay has joined
2205 2013-03-26 22:09:10 <Blaster_> hi iwilcox !
2206 2013-03-26 22:09:13 <iwilcox> Hi :)
2207 2013-03-26 22:09:21 <Blaster_> so why do you say no?
2208 2013-03-26 22:09:23 <helo> gmaxwell: old private keys are encrypted, right?
2209 2013-03-26 22:09:38 zooko has joined
2210 2013-03-26 22:09:43 <gmaxwell> Blaster_: it can be before you recieved and before you encrypted. The wallet precalculates keys.
2211 2013-03-26 22:09:54 <gmaxwell> Blaster_: just backup your encrypted wallet, switch to your backup and see if the funds are there.
2212 2013-03-26 22:09:57 <gmaxwell> helo: Yes.
2213 2013-03-26 22:10:06 <Blaster_> can it be before I created a new address to receive the coins at?
2214 2013-03-26 22:10:10 <iwilcox> Yes.
2215 2013-03-26 22:10:13 BTC_Bear has joined
2216 2013-03-26 22:10:21 <Blaster_> shit, I need that unencrypted wallet.dat then.
2217 2013-03-26 22:10:28 <iwilcox> Yeah, you do :)
2218 2013-03-26 22:10:29 D34TH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2219 2013-03-26 22:10:30 <Blaster_> There's 16.25 BTC in it
2220 2013-03-26 22:10:35 D34TH has joined
2221 2013-03-26 22:10:41 <gmaxwell> Blaster_: you can also try to scan your disk for data left behind.
2222 2013-03-26 22:10:47 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2223 2013-03-26 22:10:51 <gmaxwell> Blaster_: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=25091.0
2224 2013-03-26 22:10:51 <helo> Blaster_: i'm pretty sure your only hope is that the client leaked unencrypted keys to your hard drive before you encrypted.
2225 2013-03-26 22:10:54 Belxjander has joined
2226 2013-03-26 22:11:09 <Blaster_> why is helo contradicting what gmaxwell and iwilcox are saying?
2227 2013-03-26 22:11:19 <iwilcox> I don't think he is.
2228 2013-03-26 22:11:20 Gnaf has joined
2229 2013-03-26 22:11:41 <Blaster_> Windows 7 makes "shadow copies" and if I can get a shadow copy of the wallet.dat file from before I encrypted it, I can have the coins back, no?
2230 2013-03-26 22:11:50 <helo> Blaster_: that link from gmaxwell is likely your last hope, aside from somehow recovering the passphrase
2231 2013-03-26 22:11:54 space_cadet has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2232 2013-03-26 22:11:55 <gmaxwell> Blaster_: yes. Thats very likely.
2233 2013-03-26 22:12:02 <gmaxwell> helo: he's saying he has a backup prior to encryption.
2234 2013-03-26 22:12:12 <helo> oh. well then...
2235 2013-03-26 22:12:26 <Blaster_> Technically no, but I am hopeful that there is a trace of it on my  HDD somewhere
2236 2013-03-26 22:12:28 <gmaxwell> Blaster_: just make sure to also backup the encrypted copy.. if you can't find an older copy your best hope will be remembering the passphrase.
2237 2013-03-26 22:12:46 <helo> Blaster_: you really need to stop using that disk so you don't overwrite any traces
2238 2013-03-26 22:12:51 <gmaxwell> Blaster_: well then I suggest you first shut down and try the tool mentioned in that link. If that fails try looking for windows recovery tools.
2239 2013-03-26 22:12:51 <Blaster_> Unfortunately I used KeePass to generate the passphrase.  And somehow didn't save it in KeePas properly.
2240 2013-03-26 22:13:19 <Blaster_> I am making an image of my HDD first before I muck with anything else.
2241 2013-03-26 22:13:35 <Blaster_> its happening right now
2242 2013-03-26 22:13:35 <iwilcox> Don't forget to mention the repartition you did after the backup, although we stray off-topic.
2243 2013-03-26 22:13:47 <Blaster_> yes I did do a repartition
2244 2013-03-26 22:14:01 <Blaster_> and I believe that is what munged up my shadow copies
2245 2013-03-26 22:14:13 <Blaster_> but I have faith I can recover it
2246 2013-03-26 22:14:29 <EvilPete> How long was the KeePass passphrase?
2247 2013-03-26 22:14:47 <iwilcox> ~20 chars, punctuation etc.
2248 2013-03-26 22:15:14 <Blaster_> punciation, upper/lower case and digits :
2249 2013-03-26 22:15:18 <Blaster_> :| *
2250 2013-03-26 22:15:44 <> Clown|!~clown@static-87-79-93-140.netcologne.de|did you check the recycle bin inside keepass?
2251 2013-03-26 22:15:49 <Blaster_> yes
2252 2013-03-26 22:16:27 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2253 2013-03-26 22:16:29 <Blaster_> the passphrase inside keepass looks like the one I generated but simply doesn't work.  It's very frustrating
2254 2013-03-26 22:16:32 <EvilPete> Phone up the CIA or NSA and ask them for the backdoor phrase to the crypto you used :)
2255 2013-03-26 22:16:39 <Blaster_> lol
2256 2013-03-26 22:16:55 <Blaster_> I am sure they will get right on that
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2258 2013-03-26 22:17:22 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
2259 2013-03-26 22:17:24 <> Clown|!~clown@static-87-79-93-140.netcologne.de|tried the passphrase appending or prepending a space?
2260 2013-03-26 22:17:36 <EvilPete> damn, avalon went from 10 reminaing to 68.. how many are they making this round?
2261 2013-03-26 22:18:15 <iwilcox> Tried a bunch of variations.
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2290 2013-03-26 22:39:31 <flyingkiwiguy> iwilcox: http://www.diskinternals.com/ntfs-recovery/
2291 2013-03-26 22:39:53 <iwilcox> Thanks, but it's for Blaster_ --- I was just helping him as best I could.
2292 2013-03-26 22:40:02 <flyingkiwiguy> oops
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2334 2013-03-26 22:57:57 <davidvennik> just a little question. why does the blockchain have to store transfers after they are confirmed?
2335 2013-03-26 22:58:19 Ahimoth has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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2337 2013-03-26 22:58:20 <davidvennik> cos the size of the blockchain is getting out of control
2338 2013-03-26 22:58:27 <davidvennik> and it's on a power curve now
2339 2013-03-26 22:58:35 <davidvennik> it's only going to get worse
2340 2013-03-26 22:58:50 <davidvennik> i mean
2341 2013-03-26 22:58:57 <TheSeven> davidvennik: because you need to verify where the coins came from
2342 2013-03-26 22:58:58 icedp has joined
2343 2013-03-26 22:59:04 <davidvennik> once a bitcoin has been transferred
2344 2013-03-26 22:59:17 <rdponticelli> davidvennik: To avoid the need of trusting anyone
2345 2013-03-26 22:59:21 <davidvennik> you store the seller, and the receiver
2346 2013-03-26 22:59:23 icedp has quit (Disconnected by services)
2347 2013-03-26 22:59:23 <TheSeven> you could possibly get away with just storing unspent outputs - but even that consumes a lot of space
2348 2013-03-26 22:59:33 <davidvennik> well it's killing the full nodes
2349 2013-03-26 22:59:40 Ahimoth has joined
2350 2013-03-26 22:59:47 <flyingkiwiguy> not really
2351 2013-03-26 22:59:49 <davidvennik> you do realise that it's over 5gb now?
2352 2013-03-26 22:59:55 <davidvennik> yeah, it is
2353 2013-03-26 23:00:09 <davidvennik> my phone and my netbook can't sync anymore
2354 2013-03-26 23:00:13 <flyingkiwiguy> 5GB is large?
2355 2013-03-26 23:00:21 <davidvennik> lol!
2356 2013-03-26 23:00:25 <flyingkiwiguy> you run a full node on both?
2357 2013-03-26 23:00:26 <davidvennik> how old are you?
2358 2013-03-26 23:00:28 <rdponticelli> davidvennik: You have SPV for those use cases
2359 2013-03-26 23:00:32 <davidvennik> can't
2360 2013-03-26 23:00:39 <davidvennik> what i mean is
2361 2013-03-26 23:00:48 <TheSeven> my phone wallet uses like ~35MB of storage
2362 2013-03-26 23:00:54 quaz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2363 2013-03-26 23:00:58 icedp has joined
2364 2013-03-26 23:01:02 <davidvennik> bitcoin owner one -> bitcoin owner two -> bitcoin owner 3
2365 2013-03-26 23:01:07 * flyingkiwiguy is old enough to remember when 32bit addressing limited disks to 2GB
2366 2013-03-26 23:01:13 <davidvennik> why does one need to be retained in the database
2367 2013-03-26 23:01:14 ralphtheninja has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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2369 2013-03-26 23:01:34 <davidvennik> i am old enough to remember when memory addressing was limited to 1mb
2370 2013-03-26 23:01:36 * iwilcox still uses punched cards
2371 2013-03-26 23:01:42 bakingbr1 has quit (Client Quit)
2372 2013-03-26 23:01:53 <davidvennik> liar iwilcox
2373 2013-03-26 23:02:03 * flyingkiwiguy still bootstraps his PDP using the number pad
2374 2013-03-26 23:02:08 <iwilcox> Alright, 5.25" floppies
2375 2013-03-26 23:02:11 <davidvennik> those machines are museum pieces
2376 2013-03-26 23:02:24 <davidvennik> remember when 5.25 was 360kb?
2377 2013-03-26 23:02:25 <rdponticelli> davidvennik: Because if you don't retain it, you can't know if one isn't cheating
2378 2013-03-26 23:02:29 abracadabra has joined
2379 2013-03-26 23:02:34 <davidvennik> but after 3 steps
2380 2013-03-26 23:02:35 agricocb has joined
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2382 2013-03-26 23:02:40 <davidvennik> do we need to store 4?
2383 2013-03-26 23:02:57 <rdponticelli> davidvennik: Somebody has to
2384 2013-03-26 23:03:05 <davidvennik> not everyone lol
2385 2013-03-26 23:03:08 <davidvennik> why?
2386 2013-03-26 23:03:28 <davidvennik> the bitcoin has been confirmed to travel through two transfers
2387 2013-03-26 23:03:29 <flyingkiwiguy> then use a SPV client for all non-broadband limited disk nodes
2388 2013-03-26 23:03:40 <davidvennik> i use electrum already
2389 2013-03-26 23:03:42 <davidvennik> have to
2390 2013-03-26 23:04:02 edcba has left ()
2391 2013-03-26 23:04:03 <flyingkiwiguy> then what's the problem?
2392 2013-03-26 23:04:07 <davidvennik> you think blockchain splits are gonna stop happening?
2393 2013-03-26 23:04:15 <davidvennik> it's gonna get worse
2394 2013-03-26 23:04:26 <davidvennik> the value of btc is on an exponential curve
2395 2013-03-26 23:04:33 <gmaxwell> davidvennik: what are you talking about.
2396 2013-03-26 23:04:36 <davidvennik> transaction counts are going to escalate massively
2397 2013-03-26 23:04:45 <davidvennik> that's what miners handle, right?
2398 2013-03-26 23:04:56 <Luke-Jr> davidvennik: if you don't have the older transactions, you don't KNOW it's confirmed
2399 2013-03-26 23:05:04 <gmaxwell> 15:42 < davidvennik> you think blockchain splits are gonna stop happening?
2400 2013-03-26 23:05:07 <davidvennik> does it really have to date all the way back?
2401 2013-03-26 23:05:11 <gmaxwell> ^ what are you talking about there.
2402 2013-03-26 23:05:25 Adelex has joined
2403 2013-03-26 23:05:31 <davidvennik> do we need to know who owned a given bitcoin until the beginning of bitcoin?
2404 2013-03-26 23:05:46 <Luke-Jr> davidvennik: there's some hardfork ideas to do summary blocks, but that depends on trusting others
2405 2013-03-26 23:05:47 <CodeShark> that question does not make sense
2406 2013-03-26 23:06:11 <davidvennik> Luke-Jr, you are missing my point
2407 2013-03-26 23:06:15 <lianj> davidvennik: if you dont want to trust anyone an let your machine check then yes
2408 2013-03-26 23:06:19 <davidvennik> this is data on every node
2409 2013-03-26 23:06:22 <Luke-Jr> davidvennik: if you can't trace it back to the beginning of bitcoin, how do you know it's bitcoin?
2410 2013-03-26 23:06:26 <CodeShark> 1) coins only come into existence when they are generated (not the beginning of bitcoin, except for the genesis block)
2411 2013-03-26 23:06:36 <Luke-Jr> davidvennik: not every node. Electrum doesn't store it.
2412 2013-03-26 23:06:37 <CodeShark> 2) coins get mixed when a transaction has multiple inputs
2413 2013-03-26 23:06:40 <davidvennik> right
2414 2013-03-26 23:06:47 <davidvennik> see, this is the problem-
2415 2013-03-26 23:07:02 <davidvennik> this is a problem i predict is going to become really big soon
2416 2013-03-26 23:07:09 zoinky has joined
2417 2013-03-26 23:07:11 <davidvennik> have you seen the historical price chart?
2418 2013-03-26 23:07:17 <gmaxwell> davidvennik: Why haven't you answered me?
2419 2013-03-26 23:07:18 * lianj notes and moves on
2420 2013-03-26 23:07:21 <lianj> *noted
2421 2013-03-26 23:07:36 <Luke-Jr> davidvennik: the price is irrelevant
2422 2013-03-26 23:07:38 <davidvennik> ok, enough from me. just remember i said it
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2425 2013-03-26 23:07:50 <CodeShark> said what? lol
2426 2013-03-26 23:07:50 <Luke-Jr> davidvennik: if you want to help, contribute patches
2427 2013-03-26 23:07:55 <davidvennik> Luke-Jr, in a marketplace, price is gonna rise, that means transaction counts are gonna rise
2428 2013-03-26 23:08:00 tyn has joined
2429 2013-03-26 23:08:04 <davidvennik> cos more users are using it
2430 2013-03-26 23:08:08 <gmaxwell> davidvennik: I remember that you're fudding in here and evading questions about it... and that you need to stop.
2431 2013-03-26 23:08:21 <davidvennik> i'm totally failing to get my point across
2432 2013-03-26 23:08:22 <davidvennik> bye
2433 2013-03-26 23:08:25 davidvennik has left ("Leaving")
2434 2013-03-26 23:08:27 <Luke-Jr> davidvennik: price has no reason to be tied to transaction counts
2435 2013-03-26 23:08:48 <CodeShark> there were a few missing logic steps in there
2436 2013-03-26 23:08:57 <CodeShark> or perhaps it's just me :p
2437 2013-03-26 23:09:00 icedp is now known as asdazxc
2438 2013-03-26 23:09:06 * flyingkiwiguy grins
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2440 2013-03-26 23:09:27 <iwilcox> I think it's quite easy to imagine flaws in the current implementation.  Much harder to find them.
2441 2013-03-26 23:09:27 <flyingkiwiguy> interestingly my humble ole VPS should be able top handle 5X the tx rate
2442 2013-03-26 23:09:38 <flyingkiwiguy> runnign as a full node
2443 2013-03-26 23:09:40 asdazxc has quit (Quit: ZNC - https://PanicBNC.net)
2444 2013-03-26 23:09:49 <flyingkiwiguy> interestingly it will get limited by memory first
2445 2013-03-26 23:09:52 <Luke-Jr> flyingkiwiguy: not with 0.7.x or earlier :P
2446 2013-03-26 23:10:10 <flyingkiwiguy> yes, muchas gracias for 0.8.x
2447 2013-03-26 23:10:26 <flyingkiwiguy> LA as dropped significantly
2448 2013-03-26 23:10:40 <flyingkiwiguy> I can reduce the disk footprint more by using a compressed volume as well
2449 2013-03-26 23:11:15 <flyingkiwiguy> fairly sure 0.8.x will run fine on a Micro AWS instance
2450 2013-03-26 23:11:25 icedp has joined
2451 2013-03-26 23:11:27 rdymac has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2452 2013-03-26 23:11:28 <flyingkiwiguy> which you can get free from Amazon for a year
2453 2013-03-26 23:11:49 icedp is now known as Guest70328
2454 2013-03-26 23:12:14 Guest70328 is now known as bakingbread
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2460 2013-03-26 23:13:45 <flyingkiwiguy> the limiting factor I am experiencing now is send tx rate - can do approx. 6 sends/minute sustained using 0.8.1
2461 2013-03-26 23:13:53 <flyingkiwiguy> on testnet3
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2465 2013-03-26 23:16:24 <tcatm> http://eu1.bitcoincharts.com/stuff/btcwip.png Thoughts?
2466 2013-03-26 23:17:32 <Luke-Jr> tcatm: what did you change?
2467 2013-03-26 23:17:51 zoinky has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2468 2013-03-26 23:17:55 <tcatm> Just started migrating to bootstrap.css
2469 2013-03-26 23:18:09 <Luke-Jr> I think I like the current look better
2470 2013-03-26 23:18:17 <qdii> tcatm: screenshot of the French version for proofreading ? :)
2471 2013-03-26 23:18:46 <tcatm> qdii: I didn't change any text so you can read it on bitcoin.org
2472 2013-03-26 23:18:51 <qdii> ah ok
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2480 2013-03-26 23:20:13 <qdii> okay some thoughts: I like the current version too. on the new version, the logo seems too close to the bar [how it works …] and unaligned with the buttons on the right
2481 2013-03-26 23:20:23 <qdii> it's too white
2482 2013-03-26 23:20:45 zoinky has quit (Client Quit)
2483 2013-03-26 23:20:47 <qdii> I like the font better in this version though
2484 2013-03-26 23:21:05 zoinky has joined
2485 2013-03-26 23:22:22 metabyte has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2486 2013-03-26 23:22:59 <qdii> now the question: where can I edit the French version of the website, there are mistakes, and a lot of stuff doesn’t sound quite right
2487 2013-03-26 23:23:08 ralphtheninja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2488 2013-03-26 23:23:51 <tcatm> qdii: Do you have a github account?
2489 2013-03-26 23:23:55 <qdii> yes, qdii
2490 2013-03-26 23:23:59 ralphtheninja has joined
2491 2013-03-26 23:24:25 <tcatm> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org Fork this and make a pull request
2492 2013-03-26 23:24:40 <qdii> ok
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2504 2013-03-26 23:33:01 <davidvennik> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exponential_growth all i am trying to point out
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2509 2013-03-26 23:36:21 <qdii> harder, how can I make sure I am not hurting anyone feelings by fixing the French translations
2510 2013-03-26 23:36:37 <qdii> given the mistake, it has been translated by a non-French native with a very good level of French
2511 2013-03-26 23:37:43 <sipa> afaik the maker of the site is French...
2512 2013-03-26 23:38:11 <remotemass> sipa: may I ask you if you live in Brussels? Just out of curiosity.
2513 2013-03-26 23:38:12 <qdii> really? o.O
2514 2013-03-26 23:38:37 <sipa> remotemass: I don't
2515 2013-03-26 23:38:38 <qdii> ah yea, that could explain
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2517 2013-03-26 23:38:47 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
2518 2013-03-26 23:39:03 <sipa> qdii: i'm not sure though
2519 2013-03-26 23:39:07 <sipa> anyway, he's here
2520 2013-03-26 23:39:10 <sipa> saivann ^
2521 2013-03-26 23:39:59 <remotemass> :( was about to buy an Eurostar ticket. hehe
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