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  31 2013-03-28 00:27:55 <kfreds> Anyone awake at this time of the day (well, night)?
  32 2013-03-28 00:28:04 <sipa> no
  33 2013-03-28 00:28:09 <kfreds> Ha :)
  34 2013-03-28 00:29:27 twobitcoins has joined
  35 2013-03-28 00:29:42 <kfreds> Hmm, this question was harder to formulate than I thought.
  36 2013-03-28 00:30:27 <kfreds> Any recommendations on how to destroy bitcoin... well, make some unspendable.
  37 2013-03-28 00:30:40 <Diablo-D3> kfreds: oh, thats easy
  38 2013-03-28 00:30:45 <Diablo-D3> we recommend you dont do it, however
  39 2013-03-28 00:30:54 <Diablo-D3> once they're lost, they're lost forever
  40 2013-03-28 00:30:57 <kfreds> Are there any addresses that are proven to not have corresponding private keys?
  41 2013-03-28 00:31:07 <kfreds> Or maybe there's a better solution
  42 2013-03-28 00:31:15 <Scrat> you can easily generate addresses like that
  43 2013-03-28 00:31:30 <kfreds> Diablo-D3: That's the idea :)
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  45 2013-03-28 00:31:37 <Scrat> http://blockchain.info/address/1111111111111111111114oLvT2
  46 2013-03-28 00:31:40 <Scrat> here's one
  47 2013-03-28 00:32:19 <Scrat> here's another: 1BitcoinEaterAddressDontSendf59kuE
  48 2013-03-28 00:32:26 <Scrat> but don't do it :p
  49 2013-03-28 00:32:37 <Diablo-D3> kfreds: if you dont want your coins anymore, just send them to me
  50 2013-03-28 00:32:44 <kfreds> lol :)
  51 2013-03-28 00:32:46 <Diablo-D3> kfreds: I'll make sure they're put to good use
  52 2013-03-28 00:33:03 <Scrat> you can send it to miners by entering an exorbitant fee
  53 2013-03-28 00:33:38 * Diablo-D3 is trying to save the economy of maine
  54 2013-03-28 00:33:44 * Diablo-D3 is also trying to save the internet
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  56 2013-03-28 00:34:11 <Scrat> dont send Diablo-D3 anything he's loaded
  57 2013-03-28 00:34:20 <lianj> send them to me so i can continue searching unicorns
  58 2013-03-28 00:34:21 <Diablo-D3> Scrat: dude, if I was loaded, I'd already have the $50k I need
  59 2013-03-28 00:34:22 <kfreds> I assume it's not provable that 1111111111111111111114oLvT2 doesn't have a private key. It's just very unlikely that someone will find it?
  60 2013-03-28 00:34:36 <sipa> just as unlikely as any other given key :)
  61 2013-03-28 00:34:38 <Diablo-D3> kfreds: all valid addresses CAN have a private key
  62 2013-03-28 00:34:47 <sipa> s/key/address/
  63 2013-03-28 00:34:53 <Diablo-D3> its just that if it doesnt have one now, it probably never will
  64 2013-03-28 00:35:33 <lianj> for 1111111111111111111114oLvT2 you 'just' have to find the prikey thats hash160 hash is all zeros
  65 2013-03-28 00:38:24 <kfreds> Thanks. I guess anything will do, as long as the address looks chosen and not like a normal address, people will be satisfied that it is probably a destroyer that I don't have the key to :)
  66 2013-03-28 00:39:02 <lianj> why destroy anyway?
  67 2013-03-28 00:39:42 <lianj> http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7jrwj9ZbI1qixaep.gif ?
  68 2013-03-28 00:40:05 <kfreds> lol :)
  69 2013-03-28 00:40:58 <kfreds> Game theory. I'm not looking to actually destroy stuff.
  70 2013-03-28 00:41:48 p8m has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  71 2013-03-28 00:41:55 <kfreds> As for "evil", it would increase the value of your bitcoin, so if I did it, it'd be like philanthropy on my part.
  72 2013-03-28 00:42:24 <kfreds> Well, over time it would...
  73 2013-03-28 00:42:28 <Diablo-D3> kfreds: no, philanthropy would be helping me trying to get the $50k I need
  74 2013-03-28 00:42:56 <kfreds> Diablo-D3: For what? :)
  75 2013-03-28 00:43:53 <Scrat> I hope this doesn't start a trend: https://twitter.com/w8hgat4x1fu6c8y/statuses/295169447226925056
  76 2013-03-28 00:44:20 <Diablo-D3> kfreds: starting a company that a) will cause bitcoin to go to $1000, b) force every ISP on the planet to stop dicking around and actually provide a service and stop fucking customers, c) fix Maine's broken economy that the Federal government has been shitting on for the past 1000 years, d) make netflix much faster if you live anywhere in the northeast US
  77 2013-03-28 00:45:15 <lianj> is pirate the co founder?
  78 2013-03-28 00:45:39 <kfreds> Diablo-D3: And what's your business idea?
  79 2013-03-28 00:45:49 <Diablo-D3> lianj: hell no
  80 2013-03-28 00:45:57 <Diablo-D3> lianj: if I ever find that dick Im going to beat him with a bat
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  82 2013-03-28 00:46:40 <Diablo-D3> kfreds: deploy a several terabit backbone from portland me to boston to nyc (eventually from nyc to dc to northern va, but not the first time around)
  83 2013-03-28 00:46:53 <lianj> Scrat: i would prefer the reverse
  84 2013-03-28 00:46:56 <Diablo-D3> kfreds: and then in portland build a hundred PB data center
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  88 2013-03-28 00:49:19 <Diablo-D3> kfreds: I need the $50k to do enough lawyering to be able to negotiate investments
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  90 2013-03-28 00:49:59 <kfreds> Diablo-D3: I'll be more specific. What do you intend to sell, and to whom?
  91 2013-03-28 00:50:18 <Diablo-D3> kfreds: storage space, to large enterprises who actually need working cloud storage
  92 2013-03-28 00:52:15 <kfreds> Any previous business experience?
  93 2013-03-28 00:52:34 <Diablo-D3> yes, although I plan on finding myself a co-founer
  94 2013-03-28 00:52:40 <Diablo-D3> Im clearly the technical cofounder type
  95 2013-03-28 00:53:06 <kfreds> Are you running a business right now, or are you doing something else?
  96 2013-03-28 00:53:48 <Diablo-D3> something else
  97 2013-03-28 00:55:16 <kfreds> I assume you're already competent with the technology required, but why not start smaller and learn what it's like to run a business before you build a multi Tbit backbone and a DC?
  98 2013-03-28 00:55:53 <kfreds> It seems less risky, and therefore more probably that you'll get the initial investment. You might even be able to fund it yourself.
  99 2013-03-28 00:56:00 <kfreds> probable*
 100 2013-03-28 00:56:18 <kfreds> Just a thought :)
 101 2013-03-28 00:57:06 <Diablo-D3> kfreds: smaller is more risky, to be honest
 102 2013-03-28 00:57:25 <Diablo-D3> kfreds: still need the $50k either way
 103 2013-03-28 00:58:30 <Diablo-D3> kfreds: "small" would still be a single digit millions project.
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 105 2013-03-28 00:59:54 <kfreds> Ok.
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 107 2013-03-28 01:01:44 <Diablo-D3> kfreds: imagine what 100PB of data storage looks like
 108 2013-03-28 01:02:00 <Diablo-D3> then realize there are customers who are flocking right to Amazon because theres no one else that can handle a data set that big
 109 2013-03-28 01:02:06 <Belxjander> Diablo-D3: a big flat expanse as far as I can see?
 110 2013-03-28 01:02:14 <Diablo-D3> Belxjander: basically.
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 114 2013-03-28 01:03:06 <Diablo-D3> infact, the DC wont even be a single building, it'll probably end up being a small campus due to building structure concerns
 115 2013-03-28 01:09:24 <Diablo-D3> kfreds: fun fact, it only costs about $40k a mile to lay hardened fiber installations
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 117 2013-03-28 01:12:57 <kfreds> Heh, $s and miles are not my thing. Well, I've never been involved in laying fiber either :)
 118 2013-03-28 01:14:15 <kfreds> Is that including the fiber, a new pipe, burying it in the ground etc?
 119 2013-03-28 01:14:15 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: http://bitcointroll.org/index.php?topic=4618.0 <-- sure leaving this is a good idea, now that it's nearly trivial?
 120 2013-03-28 01:14:32 <Diablo-D3> kfreds: yes.
 121 2013-03-28 01:14:52 <Diablo-D3> kfreds: naked its like $30k (and also a FUCKING MAGNET FOR BACKHOES)
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 123 2013-03-28 01:16:39 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: For now, yes
 124 2013-03-28 01:20:33 <kfreds> Diablo-D3: Uhm, that's 12M USD for the backbone.
 125 2013-03-28 01:21:25 <Diablo-D3> kfreds: over 320 miles?
 126 2013-03-28 01:22:00 <Diablo-D3> kfreds: its closer to 13 last time I did the math for it
 127 2013-03-28 01:22:27 <Diablo-D3> and I may end up budgeting $50k/mile for it just in case.
 128 2013-03-28 01:25:41 <kfreds> Wow. You think you can get the investments for it? Then how can the initial 50k be a problem?
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 135 2013-03-28 01:46:19 <kfreds> Here's a question. Is it possible to have bitcoind and bitcoin-qt running at the same time? Can I have many bitcoind instances using the same db at the same time?
 136 2013-03-28 01:46:28 <sipa> no and no
 137 2013-03-28 01:46:37 <sipa> well yes, but not sharing the same database
 138 2013-03-28 01:47:12 <kfreds> Ok, thanks.
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 140 2013-03-28 01:50:30 <ryan-c> kfreds: bitcoin-qt has a -server option that will enable the rpc interface
 141 2013-03-28 01:52:23 <kfreds> Oh, good. That's one of the things I was thinking about :)
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 145 2013-03-28 01:54:35 <kfreds> I really like the raw transaction calls and the blocknotify option. You can do so much fun stuff with them :)
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 147 2013-03-28 01:55:19 <kfreds> It's great when you haven't used a piece of software for a while, and then you look into it again and stuff has been implemented that you wished for last time you ran it :)
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 167 2013-03-28 02:11:33 <lianj> meh, someone succesfully used btc with namecheap
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 224 2013-03-28 03:25:02 <muhoo> that thread was quaint,people offeringg 400 btc bounties
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 277 2013-03-28 04:39:13 <cornfeedhobo> can someone explain the best practices for handling wallets for online services. I understand the concepts of cold storage and all, but how do these exchange houses have cold storage and the ability to make transactions? i read about what a hot wallet is, but how do they interact?
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 279 2013-03-28 04:40:24 <[Tycho]> Depends on your setup.
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 281 2013-03-28 04:40:46 <[Tycho]> Sometimes authorized staff refill the hot wallet from the cold one after sanity checks.
 282 2013-03-28 04:40:56 <[Tycho]> And vice versa.
 283 2013-03-28 04:41:28 <cornfeedhobo> but then users have to wait for the transaction between the two wallets to be virified?
 284 2013-03-28 04:41:47 <[Tycho]> Usually one confirmation is enough.
 285 2013-03-28 04:42:00 <[Tycho]> But they don't have to wait, it's buffered.
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 287 2013-03-28 04:43:06 <[Tycho]> So, for example, you see that today people withdraw more than usual and just some thousands left in the hot wallet, then you refill it. But people can still continue withdrawing while it's being refilled.
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 289 2013-03-28 04:43:58 <cornfeedhobo> but, yeah, that is assuwing you stay on top of the buffer
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 291 2013-03-28 04:44:14 <cornfeedhobo> correct?
 292 2013-03-28 04:44:30 <[Tycho]> Yes, so you should.
 293 2013-03-28 04:44:51 <cornfeedhobo> i guess i mean that it is a manual operation because of the needs for a cold wallet
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 295 2013-03-28 04:46:01 <cornfeedhobo> okay... is it normal practice to have one large hot wallet & a DB that keeps track of what users have or create wallets for each user?
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 298 2013-03-28 04:48:59 <Belxjander> cornfeedhobo: I would personally run a DB and have a personal wallet for each individual anyway
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 300 2013-03-28 04:49:35 <cornfeedhobo> thats what i was thinking after reading what i wrote
 301 2013-03-28 04:50:51 <cornfeedhobo> the question is whether that will be a nuisance to users... but i cant think of haw that would affoct them
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 307 2013-03-28 04:53:54 <Belxjander> cornfeedhobo: as long as they have access to the on-system wallet the same there is no downside
 308 2013-03-28 04:54:03 <Tantadra> <[tycho thx for cool answers to cornfeedhobo
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 311 2013-03-28 04:56:21 <cornfeedhobo> oek thanks. I am tossing around creating a site... i am doing to play with some code over the next few days...i will probably be back with more questions
 312 2013-03-28 04:56:30 <cornfeedhobo> thanks guys :-)
 313 2013-03-28 04:56:55 <Belxjander> cornfeedhobo: if you write it up in python... maybe you can host on AppEngine for free?
 314 2013-03-28 04:57:45 <cornfeedhobo> oh neat
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 316 2013-03-28 04:58:01 <cornfeedhobo> unfortunately i am best with php
 317 2013-03-28 04:58:35 <Belxjander> ahh okay
 318 2013-03-28 04:58:55 <cornfeedhobo> is there a place that has links to bitcoin dev projects? i found the github project for a xmlrpc-php class
 319 2013-03-28 04:59:01 <cornfeedhobo> any thing like that?
 320 2013-03-28 04:59:50 <cornfeedhobo> Belxjander: i went to a python class last year and i didnt learn anything because of the teacher's horrible accent
 321 2013-03-28 05:00:14 <Tantadra> cornfeedhobo: wait a sec i have smthng for php
 322 2013-03-28 05:01:16 <cornfeedhobo> like maybe a popular class that handles bitcoind interactions.... i could create my awn but i figure i am not the firnt to think about this
 323 2013-03-28 05:01:22 Tantadruj has joined
 324 2013-03-28 05:01:39 <Tantadruj> cornfeedhobo: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/PHP_developer_intro
 325 2013-03-28 05:01:40 <digitalmagus> cornfeedhobo: You mean like this: https://github.com/search?q=bitcoin&type=&ref=simplesearch
 326 2013-03-28 05:01:49 <cornfeedhobo> (sorry still leraaning dvorak keybourd{
 327 2013-03-28 05:02:07 <digitalmagus> 100 pages worth of bitcoin dev projects
 328 2013-03-28 05:02:29 <cornfeedhobo> digitalmagus: :-D
 329 2013-03-28 05:02:34 <digitalmagus> well ok, maybe some of those aren't for bitcoin, but still tonnes
 330 2013-03-28 05:02:38 <cornfeedhobo> & *facepalm*
 331 2013-03-28 05:02:41 <cornfeedhobo> thanks guys
 332 2013-03-28 05:02:56 <cornfeedhobo> this gives me a bunch
 333 2013-03-28 05:04:38 <cornfeedhobo> there is even a charts library! why did i not use the github search. sorry guys
 334 2013-03-28 05:05:20 <Belxjander> I need to have a breakdown of the idea and the parts needed as well
 335 2013-03-28 05:05:42 <cornfeedhobo> Belxjander: i will have a better idea as i learn more
 336 2013-03-28 05:06:24 <Belxjander> your using win/lin/mac then?
 337 2013-03-28 05:07:17 <cornfeedhobo> oh i use linux everywhere
 338 2013-03-28 05:07:59 <Belxjander> using AmigaOS as desktop myself.... need to make a new linux machine
 339 2013-03-28 05:08:13 b4tt3r135 has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
 340 2013-03-28 05:08:40 <cornfeedhobo> i am trying kubuntu right now.... i am liking it
 341 2013-03-28 05:09:08 <cornfeedhobo> i would probably use centos for hosting.. or Arch
 342 2013-03-28 05:09:12 <Tantadruj> Belx: Amiga???
 343 2013-03-28 05:09:22 <[Tycho]> cornfeedhobo: what kind of service you are planning to run ? In most cases separate wallets for all users is not the best solution.
 344 2013-03-28 05:09:23 <Belxjander> I would use Gentoo myself
 345 2013-03-28 05:09:27 <Tantadruj> Belx: brings back good memories
 346 2013-03-28 05:09:42 <Tantadruj> Beljx: how do you set up AmigaOS these days?
 347 2013-03-28 05:09:53 <cornfeedhobo> Belxjander: i love gentoo!!!
 348 2013-03-28 05:10:02 <cornfeedhobo> but compile times are too long
 349 2013-03-28 05:10:03 <[Tycho]> freebsd ftw
 350 2013-03-28 05:10:11 <Belxjander> Tantadra: comes on cd with the ppc mainboard I bought
 351 2013-03-28 05:10:24 <cornfeedhobo> if i had more time i want to make a binary getoo
 352 2013-03-28 05:11:04 <Belxjander> just select drive, usb/hdd/sd/... partition and tell it install... or run the live cd option
 353 2013-03-28 05:11:10 <cornfeedhobo> i even own bintoo.org  from when i was dreaming about it
 354 2013-03-28 05:11:46 [7] has quit (Disconnected by services)
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 356 2013-03-28 05:12:49 <cornfeedhobo> [Tycho]: why not?
 357 2013-03-28 05:13:23 cerublue has joined
 358 2013-03-28 05:14:02 <Tantadruj> Belxjander: awesome :)
 359 2013-03-28 05:14:08 <[Tycho]> cornfeedhobo: are you planning to ONLY store their money or actually do something with it ?
 360 2013-03-28 05:14:38 <Belxjander> right now I want to work out whats essential operations for the mining and wallet tools to make a Wallet prorgam, bitcoind and possibly FPGA based mining option for AmigaOS
 361 2013-03-28 05:15:08 <Belxjander> Tantadra: at the moment most AmigaOS motherboards have an FPGA on them as standard free for the user to program with anything
 362 2013-03-28 05:15:32 <cornfeedhobo> [Tycho]: they will transfer to other users on the same site
 363 2013-03-28 05:15:41 <Belxjander> and a VME or some such 80pin "geekport" header wired to the FPGA
 364 2013-03-28 05:16:12 ThomasV has joined
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 366 2013-03-28 05:16:35 <Tantadruj> haha
 367 2013-03-28 05:16:45 keystroke has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 368 2013-03-28 05:16:49 <Tantadruj> Belxjander: zorro 2.0
 369 2013-03-28 05:17:32 devrandom has quit (Read error: No route to host)
 370 2013-03-28 05:17:39 <Belxjander> Tantadra: Zorro/ ZorroII and Zorro3 are all the 68K machine spec
 371 2013-03-28 05:18:01 <Belxjander> modern Amiga boards have PCI-Express/AGP/PCI slot combinations
 372 2013-03-28 05:22:40 Impaler has joined
 373 2013-03-28 05:24:33 <Tantadra> Belxjander: wanna see one day and play with it a bit ;)
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 380 2013-03-28 05:30:22 parasciidic has quit (Quit: Quit:)
 381 2013-03-28 05:31:17 rckxtra has joined
 382 2013-03-28 05:31:40 <Belxjander> Tantadra: are you in japan?
 383 2013-03-28 05:31:44 firepacket has joined
 384 2013-03-28 05:32:04 hsmiths has joined
 385 2013-03-28 05:32:05 <Tantadra> Belxjander: california
 386 2013-03-28 05:32:23 <Belxjander> ahhh... AmiWest... look that up...
 387 2013-03-28 05:32:50 hsmiths has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 388 2013-03-28 05:33:03 <Belxjander> Tantadra: do you code for anything?
 389 2013-03-28 05:33:49 <Tantadruj> Belxjander: will check it out
 390 2013-03-28 05:34:16 <Tantadruj> Belxjander: researching on BTC these days, working for me = Dubjoy,com
 391 2013-03-28 05:34:41 <Tantadruj> i mean, coding for me :)
 392 2013-03-28 05:34:53 <Tantadruj> code != work
 393 2013-03-28 05:35:28 Grishnakh has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 394 2013-03-28 05:35:53 hsmiths has joined
 395 2013-03-28 05:35:53 <Belxjander> ahh okay... code.google.com/p/[perception-ime|polymorph] << my two current projects
 396 2013-03-28 05:37:25 hsmiths has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 398 2013-03-28 05:38:02 <Tantadruj> Belxjander: deep in trenches I see :)
 399 2013-03-28 05:40:34 hsmiths has joined
 400 2013-03-28 05:40:40 <ligar> go 90.13!
 401 2013-03-28 05:40:52 <ligar> er wrong chat
 402 2013-03-28 05:41:06 * ligar wonders off
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 413 2013-03-28 05:55:24 <peawormsworth> mined bitcoins x USD market price > $1,000,000,000
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 416 2013-03-28 05:59:28 <digitalmagus> So what's the recommended Linux flavour to compile the most popular bitcoin packages, like bitcoin-qt etc... I'm finding too many dependancy hell scenarios with CentOS 6
 417 2013-03-28 06:01:01 <Belxjander> digitalmagus: well I see Gentoo documented already in the wiki
 418 2013-03-28 06:01:24 <Belxjander> and hello to me...
 419 2013-03-28 06:01:30 <Belxjander> I'm walking away from my desktop right now
 420 2013-03-28 06:01:32 <digitalmagus> :) let me look into that
 421 2013-03-28 06:01:38 gfinn has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 422 2013-03-28 06:02:07 <Bjander> And using my phone....
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 426 2013-03-28 06:04:14 <cerublue> Ubuntu?
 427 2013-03-28 06:04:22 <cerublue> I've never had an issues compiling things on ubuntu...
 428 2013-03-28 06:04:26 <cerublue> *any
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 479 2013-03-28 07:25:35 <warren> digitalmagus: the only thing you need to build manually on CentOS is openssl.  The rpm's provide all the other needed deps.
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 484 2013-03-28 07:27:47 <digitalmagus> warren: CentOS didn't even include gcc, and after I installed that, I got tonnes of errors trying to compile bitcoin-qt... also the doc/* instructions are all for ubunto and debian... so most of the commands fail in CentOS. I've just finished installing Ubuntu... let's see how that goes.  Last time I tried Linux was over 4 years ago and threw it aside because of too much dependency hell...
 485 2013-03-28 07:27:48 <digitalmagus> I'm starting to get flashbacks :-/
 486 2013-03-28 07:28:28 ToryJujube has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 487 2013-03-28 07:28:47 <warren> digitalmagus: this just means you don't know how to use centos
 488 2013-03-28 07:29:17 <digitalmagus> warren: Yup, I admit it. I don't want to waste time learning an OS, I just want to quickly use apps on it.
 489 2013-03-28 07:29:17 <warren> digitalmagus: it does suck that you can't use the system's openssl though
 490 2013-03-28 07:30:30 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 491 2013-03-28 07:30:31 <warren> digitalmagus: if you need things to just work, why you building it from source instead of using the reference binary?
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 495 2013-03-28 07:31:29 <digitalmagus> warren: I am trying to 'make' it from source... source requires too many dependencies which yum can't find, even after I add lots of repositories to it
 496 2013-03-28 07:31:40 ToryJujube has joined
 497 2013-03-28 07:32:11 <warren> digitalmagus: adding repositories is exactly the wrong thing to do
 498 2013-03-28 07:32:46 ikbenwouter has joined
 499 2013-03-28 07:32:53 <warren> digitalmagus: yum install boost-devel qt-devel
 500 2013-03-28 07:33:06 <warren> digitalmagus: that will give you everything you need with the exception of openssl which you need to build manually
 501 2013-03-28 07:33:09 <digitalmagus> warren: yeah well, spending 80% of my time googling for source to meet dependencies is a huge waste of productive time. I'm all for apt-get or some other auto-install the crap I need and let me get to work.
 502 2013-03-28 07:33:47 <digitalmagus> warren: after my work is done, then yes, I would take the time to do a fresh/clean OS install and secure it all before going into production
 503 2013-03-28 07:33:57 jine has left ()
 504 2013-03-28 07:34:28 <digitalmagus> warren: Ah ok, I tried to do: yum install boost   ... but didn't know there was a -dev and -qt-dev as well
 505 2013-03-28 07:34:37 <digitalmagus> let me try that then...
 506 2013-03-28 07:35:57 <warren> digitalmagus: fedora and centos are in a bad situation now with openssl
 507 2013-03-28 07:36:11 <warren> digitalmagus: hopefully in a few months sipa's new library will replace openssl entirely
 508 2013-03-28 07:36:36 <sivu> puuh... running bitcoind on a server increases ssh attacks threefold
 509 2013-03-28 07:36:48 <digitalmagus> havent heard of sipa
 510 2013-03-28 07:36:55 <digitalmagus> sivu: how so?
 511 2013-03-28 07:37:06 <digitalmagus> sivu: extrenal hacker attacks?
 512 2013-03-28 07:37:16 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
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 514 2013-03-28 07:37:22 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
 515 2013-03-28 07:37:29 <warren> sivu: http://www.cipherdyne.org/fwknop/
 516 2013-03-28 07:37:37 <warren> close the ssh port =)
 517 2013-03-28 07:37:42 <sivu> digitalmagus: yes. fail2ban mails increased almost instantly
 518 2013-03-28 07:38:09 <digitalmagus> sivu: stick a firewall in front of your linux box and lock down which IPs can SSH to the box. Easy problem to solve no?
 519 2013-03-28 07:38:36 bolapara_ has joined
 520 2013-03-28 07:38:41 <sivu> yeah its not an issue, just an observation
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 523 2013-03-28 07:40:23 <warren> digitalmagus: http://linux.ringingliberty.com/bitcoin/
 524 2013-03-28 07:40:41 <warren> digitalmagus: this guy made RPMS of a parallel-install openssl and bitcoin for fedora and EL6
 525 2013-03-28 07:41:00 <digitalmagus> warren: cool thanks.
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 528 2013-03-28 07:41:54 FellowTraveler has joined
 529 2013-03-28 07:42:38 <FellowTraveler> Hi, we have Open-Transactions now available via apt-get for Ubuntu 12.04. If anyone is interested to test it out:  http://www.openwallet.org/downloads/
 530 2013-03-28 07:43:02 <FellowTraveler> It changes quite often, FYI. Anyone who needs support, there are usually people on #opentransactions (freenode)
 531 2013-03-28 07:43:32 <keystrike> cool
 532 2013-03-28 07:43:38 <FellowTraveler> that is all.
 533 2013-03-28 07:43:41 <keystrike> has the project seen much progress lately?
 534 2013-03-28 07:43:41 FellowTraveler has left ()
 535 2013-03-28 07:43:43 <keystrike> ah
 536 2013-03-28 07:43:50 <digitalmagus> open transactions? Isn't the idea to hide them ? :P
 537 2013-03-28 07:44:22 <digitalmagus> Oh I see.. Open as in opensource
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 541 2013-03-28 07:50:55 <SomeoneWeird> lol FT
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 557 2013-03-28 08:23:16 <Grishnap> Hey guys, has there been economic work in how transaction costs evolve in the BTC system?
 558 2013-03-28 08:23:52 <Grishnap> I appreciate this is the wrong forum to ask the question (and am conducting searches in the scholarly domains as we speak)
 559 2013-03-28 08:24:25 <Grishnap> But any answers pointing me to an analysis of transaction costs in the network would be appreciated
 560 2013-03-28 08:24:52 <digitalmagus> Grishnap: Not sure but try this google query: bitcoin academic transaction costs PDF
 561 2013-03-28 08:25:53 <Grishnap> hehe, thanks digitalmagus for being concerned that I do not know how to use google :D
 562 2013-03-28 08:25:56 <topi`> funny how -reindex slows down by a factor 10 or maybe 100, when the block count reaches 210000
 563 2013-03-28 08:26:27 <denisx> topi`: you are using 0.8.0?
 564 2013-03-28 08:26:33 <topi`> yes 0.8.0
 565 2013-03-28 08:26:35 <denisx> you should use 0.8.1
 566 2013-03-28 08:26:37 <digitalmagus> Grishnap: I saw a webpage the other day that pointed to 57 academic papers on bitcoin... too bad my google-fu is not good enough to find it again :P
 567 2013-03-28 08:26:41 <denisx> then it gets slower alot later
 568 2013-03-28 08:26:42 <gmaxwell> topi`: the factor depends on your cpu speed— it's just the ecdsa valudation kicking in.
 569 2013-03-28 08:27:11 <topi`> gmaxwell: so the num of ecdsa validations grows exponentially at later blocks?
 570 2013-03-28 08:27:12 debiantoruser has joined
 571 2013-03-28 08:27:32 <Grishnap> digitalmagus, I call that the "time machine" problem. to re-find some results, you'd practically need a time machine back to the exact moment where you found it in the first place :D
 572 2013-03-28 08:27:33 <gmaxwell> Grishnap: I'm not aware of anything really along those lines. And general scholarly work on Bitcoin tends to be of low quality now— seems journals can't find reviewers who are competent about the system... but the question you're asking sounds even more abstract than many others.
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 574 2013-03-28 08:27:42 <topi`> maybe ecdsa could be accelerated with a GPU?
 575 2013-03-28 08:27:51 <gmaxwell> topi`: No, the software doesn't run ECDSA on very old blocks.
 576 2013-03-28 08:28:09 <denisx> topi`: after the checkpoint the validation gets alot harder
 577 2013-03-28 08:28:15 <topi`> right.
 578 2013-03-28 08:28:18 <denisx> and 0.8.1 has a later checkpoint
 579 2013-03-28 08:28:28 <Grishnap> gmaxwell, hmm, the  "Bitter-to-Better" paper might have some good ideas how to mitigate what might become a problem
 580 2013-03-28 08:28:35 <gmaxwell> topi`: sipa has ecdsa code which is 4-5x faster now)
 581 2013-03-28 08:28:44 <topi`> denisx: well I'm already processing blocks from january so almost there now ;)
 582 2013-03-28 08:29:12 <denisx> topi`: 0.8.1 has the checkpoint on 12.3.2013
 583 2013-03-28 08:30:02 <topi`> could the ecdsa validations be done in parallel? maybe, since each block has lots of tx's to be validated
 584 2013-03-28 08:30:12 <denisx> they are
 585 2013-03-28 08:30:13 <topi`> so, openCL would offer faster validation
 586 2013-03-28 08:30:24 <topi`> maybe a FPGA
 587 2013-03-28 08:30:30 <gmaxwell> topi`: it is done in parallel.
 588 2013-03-28 08:30:43 <topi`> gmaxwell: which is not very parallel on my core2duo ;)
 589 2013-03-28 08:30:44 <gmaxwell> depending on a fpga isn't really all that helpful.
 590 2013-03-28 08:30:44 chmod755 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 591 2013-03-28 08:30:58 <gmaxwell> topi`: I guess you weren't excited by a 5x speedup?
 592 2013-03-28 08:31:25 <topi`> gmaxwell: yes the 5x speedup is really helpful, i'm just thinking of ways of offloading work from cpu to a fpga or whatnot
 593 2013-03-28 08:31:36 <topi`> my intent is to run bitcoind on an ARM cpu :)
 594 2013-03-28 08:31:38 <Grishnap> it's a very interesting problem from an economic standpoint. miners must balance the cost of mining against the transaction costs received.
 595 2013-03-28 08:32:01 <Grishnap> thanks gmaxwell for the input, and digitalmagus
 596 2013-03-28 08:32:03 <gmaxwell> topi`: so run it on one— catching up with the history isn't terribly interesting since its a one time operation.
 597 2013-03-28 08:32:25 <topi`> gmaxwell: I know, but incoming tx's and blocks do generate some CPU usage
 598 2013-03-28 08:32:27 <gmaxwell> Grishnap: hm? Transactions have almost no marginal cost impact to miners.
 599 2013-03-28 08:33:13 <gmaxwell> topi`: so, if you can afford an fpga for validation you can obviously also afford a faster cpu. :P ...
 600 2013-03-28 08:33:33 <gmaxwell> topi`: writing a fast arm implementation of our ecdsa would perhaps be productive.
 601 2013-03-28 08:33:37 <Grishnap> digitalmagus, just for fun I used your exact search term, and it found a nice handful of the top bitcoin papers I already knew and a few new ones, so I'm sorry for being initially skeptical that it would work (I was using Gscholar and my own school's academic database search, before, lol, but this actually gave me something new)
 602 2013-03-28 08:33:51 <topi`> gmaxwell: the point of an ARM is that very few script k1dd1es can write arm assembler, so stack exploits get hard
 603 2013-03-28 08:33:58 <digitalmagus> Grishnap: :)
 604 2013-03-28 08:34:21 <topi`> also, security by obscurity :)
 605 2013-03-28 08:34:21 <gmaxwell> topi`: 0_o uh. arm asm is a lot easier to write than x86, and there is ready to run arm shell code out there.
 606 2013-03-28 08:34:44 <Grishnap> gmaxwell, I'm showing my ignorance of the BTC protocol here. I should read this printout of satoshi's paper here in my lap before asking a single question more, hah.
 607 2013-03-28 08:34:44 <topi`> well maybe the situation has changed in 5 years
 608 2013-03-28 08:34:47 <gmaxwell> topi`: at the same time bitcoin is less well tested on arm and appears to have at least one arm specific crash.
 609 2013-03-28 08:34:52 ovidiusoft has joined
 610 2013-03-28 08:35:07 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: knowledge of 68K or PPC asm certainly helped me pick up arm ISA asm
 611 2013-03-28 08:35:23 <topi`> gmaxwell: maybe I should have a look at that, if it is reproducible
 612 2013-03-28 08:35:44 <gmaxwell> topi`: if you want obscurity, run bitcoin on netbsd on vax emulator. :P (http://simh.trailing-edge.com/)
 613 2013-03-28 08:35:48 <Belxjander> Grishnakh: where are you and do you have a PDF link about satoshi's paper?
 614 2013-03-28 08:36:02 <gmaxwell> topi`: it's not reliably reproducable or it would be fixed... but if you can reproduce it, that would be good.
 615 2013-03-28 08:36:11 oru has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 616 2013-03-28 08:36:21 <gmaxwell> topi`: it sounds like an unaligned read ... someplace. (bombing out with a bus error IIRC)
 617 2013-03-28 08:36:25 <topi`> gmaxwell: is there a bug report somewhere about it?
 618 2013-03-28 08:36:57 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
 619 2013-03-28 08:37:11 oru has joined
 620 2013-03-28 08:37:38 <denisx> there was a bitcoind on iphone, so someone already has done the port to arm
 621 2013-03-28 08:38:14 <toffoo> bitcoin-qt just crashed on me for the first time ever  (since like v0.3something)
 622 2013-03-28 08:38:28 <gmaxwell> Grishnap: the paper is pretty high level.  In any case, the miners only real immediate costs for a transaction are some moderate bandwidth increases when announcing a solution. There are long term costs borne by the entire network.  The miner's constraint is that blocks have a limited size.
 623 2013-03-28 08:38:46 * Belxjander is looking to port bitcoin-qt to AmigaOS/MUI
 624 2013-03-28 08:38:54 <toffoo> v0.8.1 on mac
 625 2013-03-28 08:38:56 <gmaxwell> denisx: there isn't a "port" required.. it works on arm. But it sounds like there is at least one arm specific bug.
 626 2013-03-28 08:38:58 oleganza has quit (Quit: oleganza)
 627 2013-03-28 08:38:59 <toffoo> "LevelDB read failure: Corruption: block checksum mismatch
 628 2013-03-28 08:38:59 <toffoo> *** System error: Database corrupted"
 629 2013-03-28 08:39:21 oleganza has joined
 630 2013-03-28 08:39:25 <SomeoneWeird> i know the problem, your database is corrupted
 631 2013-03-28 08:39:27 * SomeoneWeird runs
 632 2013-03-28 08:40:12 <gmaxwell> toffoo: starting bitcoin with reindex will fix that. Your database is corrupted. I will guess that you had an unclean power off previously?
 633 2013-03-28 08:40:36 <gmaxwell> Recent reports have made it sound like leveldb has durability problems with unclean poweroffs on mac (and windows)
 634 2013-03-28 08:40:42 <toffoo> it's reindexing now  (oh joy)
 635 2013-03-28 08:40:43 <warren> and btrfs
 636 2013-03-28 08:40:55 <toffoo> no unclean power off recently
 637 2013-03-28 08:40:58 <toffoo> so i'm curious why it happened
 638 2013-03-28 08:41:20 <sipa> it's not database corruption
 639 2013-03-28 08:41:26 <sipa> but block data corruption
 640 2013-03-28 08:41:46 <toffoo> oh rly?  are we forking again or something?
 641 2013-03-28 08:41:58 <sipa> of your hard drive
 642 2013-03-28 08:42:17 <toffoo> i see
 643 2013-03-28 08:42:19 Xeno-Genesis has joined
 644 2013-03-28 08:42:22 <digitalmagus> this is how rumours get started :)
 645 2013-03-28 08:42:31 <gmaxwell> sipa: huh? thats a leveldb error. Its the sort of thing you could get from a torn write, no?
 646 2013-03-28 08:43:03 <sipa> uh.
 647 2013-03-28 08:43:12 <sipa> i must still be sleeping
 648 2013-03-28 08:43:15 <toffoo> so when this reindexes do you think i'll be all set?  or do i have to dl the block chain again?
 649 2013-03-28 08:43:21 <sipa> toffoo: ignore me
 650 2013-03-28 08:43:54 <gmaxwell> toffoo: No you won't have to download anything again. (except perhaps a couple of the most recent blocks)
 651 2013-03-28 08:44:31 <toffoo> ok .. 68% now .. i'll let you know how it turns out, or I see it crash again
 652 2013-03-28 08:47:06 Xeno-Genesis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 653 2013-03-28 08:48:05 CodesInChaos has joined
 654 2013-03-28 08:48:15 <topi`> toffoo: I'm also reindexing my blockchain... maybe the same bug? I have OSX10.6 and bitcoin 0.8.0
 655 2013-03-28 08:49:28 <Grishnap> gmaxwell, hmm, how much of the mining incentive is currently transaction costs?
 656 2013-03-28 08:50:16 <Grishnap> gmaxwell, actually, sorry, that's a dumb question for me to just arbitrarily expect you to know
 657 2013-03-28 08:50:24 <Grishnap> google is my friend!
 658 2013-03-28 08:50:25 <gmaxwell> Grishnap: No, it's not.
 659 2013-03-28 08:50:39 <denisx> Grishnap: 1/(25/fee)
 660 2013-03-28 08:50:47 oleganza has quit (Quit: oleganza)
 661 2013-03-28 08:51:26 <digitalmagus> yeah, startpage.com is my friend now :)
 662 2013-03-28 08:52:08 btcur has joined
 663 2013-03-28 08:52:27 <Grishnap> denisx, 1/(25/fee) = fee/25. So each miner that authenticates a block gets (1/25)th of the fee load of that block?
 664 2013-03-28 08:52:58 <Grishnap> gmaxwell, haha, are you replying to my "google is friend!" statement, or to my previous statement
 665 2013-03-28 08:53:34 <gmaxwell> Grishnap: Your first, and your math is crazy.
 666 2013-03-28 08:53:44 <denisx> Grishnap: nvm, I got your question wrong
 667 2013-03-28 08:54:21 <gmaxwell> Grishnap: mining is an atomic process, a block exists or does not exist and the miner that creates a block gets all the fees.
 668 2013-03-28 08:55:06 kalleboo has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
 669 2013-03-28 08:55:10 <gmaxwell> Grishnap: for the last 1000 blocks the reward stats are:
 670 2013-03-28 08:55:11 <gmaxwell>    Min. 1st Qu.  Median    Mean 3rd Qu.    Max.
 671 2013-03-28 08:55:11 <gmaxwell>   25.00   25.09   25.21   25.30   25.37   39.89
 672 2013-03-28 08:55:22 <gmaxwell> 25 BTC of the reward is subsidy (not fee).
 673 2013-03-28 08:55:24 ThomasV has joined
 674 2013-03-28 08:55:30 <Grishnap> I _really_ _must_ _insert_ _foot_ _in_ _mouth_ _and_ _read_ _that_ _paper_
 675 2013-03-28 08:55:40 <gmaxwell> The paper is short.
 676 2013-03-28 08:55:55 <Grishnap> gmaxwell, not another peep from me till I know _exactly_ how blocks are authenticated and distributed
 677 2013-03-28 08:56:02 <gmaxwell> You will have more questions than answers after reading it— but some of the questions may be better.
 678 2013-03-28 08:56:13 <Grishnap> gmaxwell, yeah, I have it here in my hand, lol, nine pages only
 679 2013-03-28 08:56:35 <gmaxwell> Grishnap: They are authenticated by everyone. Bitcoin is zero trust, for the most part. Mining is about giving _order_ to transactions, but the validity is checked autonoymously by all full nodes.
 680 2013-03-28 08:56:42 <Grishnap> I eat nine pages of academic paper for breakfast, but this has deeper crypto than I'm used to, so it will be a challenge
 681 2013-03-28 08:57:58 <Grishnap> gmaxwell, yeah, I can literally feel that my questions are currently poor, heh.
 682 2013-03-28 08:58:56 <Grishnap> gmaxwell, I think the paper addresses why it's important to give order to the transactions in the section on timestamping, so lemme waste no more of your time, and consult that
 683 2013-03-28 08:59:07 <Grishnap> thanks for your help this evening
 684 2013-03-28 08:59:16 <gmaxwell> it helps to understand that all the validation stuff, signatures, hashes, etc.  is "trivial" it's all easily solved straight engineering work. The hard problem is getting mutually distrusting decenteralized nodes to agree on the history of all transactions. (they can check validity for themselves— 'just engineering'— but you can't generally prove to yourself what order events came in, only what order you saw them in: and that isn't ...
 685 2013-03-28 08:59:22 <gmaxwell> ... universal)
 686 2013-03-28 08:59:23 abadr has joined
 687 2013-03-28 08:59:23 Guest23781 has joined
 688 2013-03-28 08:59:48 <MC1984> is there any evidnce the fees market is starting to work
 689 2013-03-28 09:00:02 <MC1984> isnt that why the blocks were limited to 250kb
 690 2013-03-28 09:01:33 <Guest23781> MC1984: you're from Greek ascent right?
 691 2013-03-28 09:01:58 <MC1984> nope
 692 2013-03-28 09:02:03 <gmaxwell> MC1984: too easly defeated by a few miners mining at 500k... It was set to 250k iirc because it mimicked the behavior under the old rules.
 693 2013-03-28 09:02:50 <n1c> Is it possible to "only" mine for transaction fees?
 694 2013-03-28 09:03:16 <MC1984> nope
 695 2013-03-28 09:03:33 <sturles> Yes, but it would be pretty stupid to forfeit the block reward at this point.
 696 2013-03-28 09:03:39 Orpere has joined
 697 2013-03-28 09:04:00 <sturles> Same effort.
 698 2013-03-28 09:04:12 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: what about taking every "transaction event" as a standalone Incoming message and don't care what order as long as it is timestamped within boundaries and record it in each block appropriately?
 699 2013-03-28 09:04:14 <MC1984> sturles you can really mine a block without subsidy?
 700 2013-03-28 09:04:21 <MC1984> sounds like an attack vector
 701 2013-03-28 09:04:41 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: your timestamps are different from mine, why should I believe yours?
 702 2013-03-28 09:04:55 <gmaxwell> MC1984: the "I deprived myself of money attack" oh no!
 703 2013-03-28 09:04:58 <gmaxwell> :P
 704 2013-03-28 09:05:03 <sturles> Yes, I believe the clients will accept it as long as your reward isn't higher than the allowed.
 705 2013-03-28 09:05:06 <MC1984> lol
 706 2013-03-28 09:05:10 <gmaxwell> sturles is correct.
 707 2013-03-28 09:05:12 <MC1984> more like i deprived someone else too
 708 2013-03-28 09:05:16 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: you don't... you timestamp the transactions for yourself based on the time-of-receipt??
 709 2013-03-28 09:05:16 <gmaxwell> MC1984: who?
 710 2013-03-28 09:05:24 <MC1984> other miners
 711 2013-03-28 09:05:27 <topi`> Grishnap: I tried to calculate the average txfees per block from Slush's data, but couldn't do it prorammatically since the json didn't include the "block value" which is visible via the UI
 712 2013-03-28 09:05:47 <MC1984> also fucks up bitcoins economic projections somewhat
 713 2013-03-28 09:05:53 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: great. But you see A then B, and I see B than A.. Both B and A spend the same coin so both can't be valid.  Now you and I disagree on who owns which coins.
 714 2013-03-28 09:05:53 <MC1984> what little projections it has at any rate
 715 2013-03-28 09:06:00 <gmaxwell> MC1984: other miners?!
 716 2013-03-28 09:06:18 <topi`> but it seems that most blocks are between 25.1 or 25.2 of value, so txfees are at around 0.1 BTC per block
 717 2013-03-28 09:06:20 <gmaxwell> topi`: I gave the numbers right above.
 718 2013-03-28 09:06:25 <gmaxwell> topi`: scroll up
 719 2013-03-28 09:06:31 <topi`> oh? I was busy python scripting
 720 2013-03-28 09:06:35 <gmaxwell> 01:33 < gmaxwell> Grishnap: for the last 1000 blocks the reward stats are:
 721 2013-03-28 09:06:41 <topi`> only to find no "block value" field in the stupid data
 722 2013-03-28 09:06:43 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: source and destination addresses are the same for both of us right?
 723 2013-03-28 09:06:43 <gmaxwell> python. lol. I solved it with shell.
 724 2013-03-28 09:06:52 <gmaxwell> ("Solved it with shell" should be a slogan)
 725 2013-03-28 09:06:53 <MC1984> well i suppose you could just mine blocks and destroy the coins too
 726 2013-03-28 09:07:07 <slush> topi`: oh, that's a bug, not a feature. I'll add it to json...
 727 2013-03-28 09:07:28 <gmaxwell> topi`: (for i in {228367..227367} ; do export bh=`./bitcoind getblockhash $i` ; for tx in `./bitcoind getblock $bh | grep '     "' | head -1 |cut -d'"' -f2` ; do ./bitcoind getrawtransaction $tx 1 | grep value  | cut -d':' -f2 | cut -d ',' -f1 | awk '{aa+=$1} END {print aa}' ; done   ; done)
 728 2013-03-28 09:07:39 <topi`> gmaxwell: oh, that 5-values output really looked like 'R' output ;)
 729 2013-03-28 09:07:53 <MC1984> cat typing detected
 730 2013-03-28 09:07:55 <Belxjander> are there any python scripts not part of a complete client as a breakdown of what operations occur?
 731 2013-03-28 09:07:56 <gmaxwell> topi`: well I ran the data through R for the values. :P
 732 2013-03-28 09:08:11 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: I don't follow your question.
 733 2013-03-28 09:08:24 <topi`> slush: sorry for bringing the issue up ;) btw, do you do the website in python? since your mining_proxy was done in Twisted
 734 2013-03-28 09:08:26 Transisto has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 735 2013-03-28 09:08:37 <slush> topi`: yes, django
 736 2013-03-28 09:08:37 nus has joined
 737 2013-03-28 09:08:38 <topi`> slush: I've spent last 5 months trying to pick up Twisted, it's an intriguing framework
 738 2013-03-28 09:08:54 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: There are two distinct transactions,  A and B.  Both spend coin X.  A pays Alice. B pays Bob.   You see A first then B.  I see B first than A.
 739 2013-03-28 09:09:03 Guest27566 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 740 2013-03-28 09:09:08 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: I'm wanting to setup a niche OS as having a client... but have no real grasp of the algorithms and find it hard to read the C++ client code
 741 2013-03-28 09:09:15 <gmaxwell> (transactions do not have a source address)
 742 2013-03-28 09:09:15 <slush> Yes, it is. I still feel like I use 10% of its features and it's still powerfull :)
 743 2013-03-28 09:09:34 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: and in both cases there is a src+dst+coin IDs right?
 744 2013-03-28 09:09:42 <topi`> slush: well, you get tons of protocols and stuff basically for free.
 745 2013-03-28 09:09:47 <slush> yes
 746 2013-03-28 09:10:04 <Belxjander> you can validate order by "coin" path based on any given coin ID going from src->dst and any dst becomes the next src4
 747 2013-03-28 09:10:08 <Belxjander> src even
 748 2013-03-28 09:10:22 nus- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 749 2013-03-28 09:10:24 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: there is the id of the coin being spent and the new script that describes the requirements for spending the new transaction output.
 750 2013-03-28 09:10:35 <topi`> slush: if you need twisted coding help for your upcoming projects, feel free to contact me ;) I work for bitcoin!
 751 2013-03-28 09:10:42 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: so there is no record of who spent it?
 752 2013-03-28 09:10:56 <slush> topi`: where are you from?
 753 2013-03-28 09:11:02 <topi`> slush: finland
 754 2013-03-28 09:11:04 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: no, only that whomever spent it satisfied the rules stipulated on the coin.
 755 2013-03-28 09:11:05 <Belxjander> slush: you are the slushies pool guy?
 756 2013-03-28 09:11:16 <slush> Belxjander: most likely yes
 757 2013-03-28 09:11:25 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: yes,  you see X->A then another txn  X->B .... I see X->B then later X->A.
 758 2013-03-28 09:11:42 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: hrmm... I still need to get to grips with the messaging basics over the network to get the blockchain from origin first
 759 2013-03-28 09:11:42 <slush> topi`: hm, can you send me a contact to info@bitcoin.cz, with some references to your previous projects?
 760 2013-03-28 09:11:49 <gmaxwell> "<slush> Why? do I^W^Wdoes he owe you money?"
 761 2013-03-28 09:11:59 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: within the same "block" of the chain?
 762 2013-03-28 09:12:03 Killdozer has joined
 763 2013-03-28 09:12:17 <slush> gmaxwell: eh, what? :)
 764 2013-03-28 09:12:20 <topi`> slush: I'm currently employed on a medical data project, but would want to do something bitcoin-related
 765 2013-03-28 09:12:25 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: there is no block yet— the blockchain is what in bitcoin solves this problem.
 766 2013-03-28 09:12:31 <Belxjander> slush: I only recently joined your mining pool... trying to get an FPGA in my Amiga doing a little bit of hashing
 767 2013-03-28 09:12:44 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: so the transactions build the blocks?
 768 2013-03-28 09:12:50 <gmaxwell> slush: commenting on "slush: you are the slushies pool guy?" "Belxjander: most likely yes". :)
 769 2013-03-28 09:13:00 jdnavarro has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 770 2013-03-28 09:13:00 <slush> lol, that :D
 771 2013-03-28 09:13:04 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: no. The blocks establish an official ordering of the transactions.
 772 2013-03-28 09:13:08 <slush> Belxjander: then good luck ;)
 773 2013-03-28 09:13:50 <topi`> Belxjander: sounds like a fun project. I no longer have my Amiga 3000 operational, the keyboard controller or something was broken
 774 2013-03-28 09:13:52 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: then I *definitely* need to get python 2.7.4rc1 replacing the python2.5.5 and update the Amiga module to include FPGA.resource access
 775 2013-03-28 09:14:03 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: the mining process is basically a kind of lottery... some lucky computer cycle gets elected by the network to make its idea of the order the official order.
 776 2013-03-28 09:14:30 <Belxjander> topi`: I have a sam440ep-flex machine so the starting blocks for me is a PowerPC @ 667MHz + FPGA clockable to the same within breaking 20watts of power draw
 777 2013-03-28 09:14:45 <Belxjander> s/within/without
 778 2013-03-28 09:15:20 <topi`> Belxjander: you need to take into consideration the fact that the bitcoind is not endian-clean, i.e. it only works correctly on little-endian
 779 2013-03-28 09:15:25 <Belxjander> or I can leave it with the "IO" program that is the default and use the 80pin connected wired to it for custom hardware
 780 2013-03-28 09:15:29 <topi`> and ppc is big-endian, or it was when I was programming it in 2001
 781 2013-03-28 09:15:58 <Belxjander> topace: there are "reverse-" byte order read/write instructions in assembler that I already have VirtualMachineManager routines written to use
 782 2013-03-28 09:16:02 <Belxjander> so I will re-use those
 783 2013-03-28 09:16:14 <topi`> oh, interesting
 784 2013-03-28 09:16:16 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 785 2013-03-28 09:16:16 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: topi`: one of the bitcoiners who sometimes hangs out in #bitcoin-otc has an Amiga 3000 with Amiga Unix!
 786 2013-03-28 09:16:17 <Belxjander> since they simply read LE from ram to BE in registers and reverse when writing
 787 2013-03-28 09:16:31 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: and an ethernet adaptor. And gcc 1.3
 788 2013-03-28 09:16:43 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: holy shit!!,  I had all except the tape drive and software for that setup at one point
 789 2013-03-28 09:16:53 <topi`> gmaxwell: that's pretty much museum stuff :)
 790 2013-03-28 09:17:28 <gmaxwell> I had a good time logging into it and testing out some of my software. ... current gnu tar produces tarfiles that segfault the old AT&T tar on it. :P
 791 2013-03-28 09:17:28 <Belxjander> topi`: well if you want to see the existing VMM work I have got public its on google code... look for the same username as what I am using now
 792 2013-03-28 09:17:39 <Grishnap> gmaxwell, ah, I missed where you posted those stats. Is that blockhain.info data? I could only find http://blockchain.info/charts/cost-per-transaction . Is that the average per-block transaction fee payload?
 793 2013-03-28 09:17:42 <gmaxwell> I had an a4000 at one point.
 794 2013-03-28 09:18:22 <topi`> slush: what I am mainly thinking, is that we need a funding model, like kickstarter, for funding bitcoin-related projects (if there are any great ideas)
 795 2013-03-28 09:18:25 <gmaxwell> Grishnap: I measured it myself from the blockchain when you asked, I pasted the shell script. Also:
 796 2013-03-28 09:18:28 <gmaxwell> 01:33 < gmaxwell> 25 BTC of the reward is subsidy (not fee).
 797 2013-03-28 09:18:43 <topi`> slush: so if you  want to build a kickstarter-clone based on BTC economy, i'd like to help  out ;)
 798 2013-03-28 09:19:00 <gmaxwell> Grishnap: but yes, thats the average (and median,max,min, etc) for the last 1000 blocks (about a week)
 799 2013-03-28 09:19:14 <slush> I think there are such services already. They're just lacking marketing and the community
 800 2013-03-28 09:19:23 <Belxjander> topi`: well the only idea I have at the moment is to make an AppEngine python instance where I can pull ticker data from the blockchain...
 801 2013-03-28 09:19:26 <topi`> slush: but you know how to do the marketing ;)
 802 2013-03-28 09:19:29 <slush> actually the programming part is the easier one
 803 2013-03-28 09:19:35 <slush> not really :(
 804 2013-03-28 09:19:36 <gmaxwell> "scamstarter" :P
 805 2013-03-28 09:19:39 <topi`> slush: agreed
 806 2013-03-28 09:19:50 <Belxjander> but it will only be able to cache 5GB of data at any time
 807 2013-03-28 09:20:01 debiantoruser has joined
 808 2013-03-28 09:20:01 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: the blockchain is not a good broadcast channel for non-transaction data.
 809 2013-03-28 09:20:24 <topi`> slush: my idea would take advantage of the multiple-signing transactions (so that if goal is not met, the tx is dismissed)
 810 2013-03-28 09:20:32 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: I'll want to start with being able to peer and save the blockchain on my machine here
 811 2013-03-28 09:20:57 <Belxjander> though I still need to actively enable reiserfs on my Amiga for having a decent amount of HDD space (2nnd drive is a single partition 500GB device)
 812 2013-03-28 09:21:11 <topi`> Belxjander: I have no experience of AppEngine, I have my own host on the fixed net.
 813 2013-03-28 09:21:12 <gmaxwell> "Hopefully you're not married?"
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 816 2013-03-28 09:22:04 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: WHO?
 817 2013-03-28 09:22:06 <topi`> slush: did you meet genjix in Prague?
 818 2013-03-28 09:22:28 * Belxjander IS married and has a 9-month old son :P
 819 2013-03-28 09:22:55 <gmaxwell> It's probably best that my tasteless humor there wooshed you.
 820 2013-03-28 09:23:00 <topi`> Belxjander: our son is 0x12 months now ;)
 821 2013-03-28 09:23:15 <Belxjander> topi`: WSGI Python scripting / Java Web Application / "Go" Web Application << take your pick... but I would stay with the python runtime :)
 822 2013-03-28 09:23:35 <topi`> Belxjander: python would be definitely my pick as well
 823 2013-03-28 09:23:41 <gmaxwell> topi`: watch out, luke will convert you to tonal.
 824 2013-03-28 09:24:00 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: what?
 825 2013-03-28 09:24:30 <topi`> gmaxwell: when I joined this channel back in april 2011, I was convinced that the whole bitcoin-dev was a bunch of loonies (since luke was talking btc amounts in tonal...)
 826 2013-03-28 09:24:44 rebroad has joined
 827 2013-03-28 09:24:46 <flyingkiwiguy> and your opion has changed?
 828 2013-03-28 09:24:51 <flyingkiwiguy> *opinion
 829 2013-03-28 09:24:54 t7 has joined
 830 2013-03-28 09:24:55 <topi`> well, not that much :D
 831 2013-03-28 09:24:57 <Belxjander> flyingkiwiguy: NZ?
 832 2013-03-28 09:24:59 rebroad is now known as Rebroad
 833 2013-03-28 09:25:07 <flyingkiwiguy> formerly of NZ
 834 2013-03-28 09:25:12 <Rebroad> https://bitcoinfoundation.org/blog/?p=135 - WTF?! Blocksize limit "needs" to be raised?!
 835 2013-03-28 09:25:15 <Belxjander> flyingkiwiguy: same... in Japan myself
 836 2013-03-28 09:25:20 <flyingkiwiguy> currently London, soon to be Swizterland
 837 2013-03-28 09:25:29 <topi`> Rebroad: that's one opinion. there are other opinions as well
 838 2013-03-28 09:25:51 <gmaxwell> and on that cue…
 839 2013-03-28 09:25:55 * gmaxwell says goodnight
 840 2013-03-28 09:25:59 <flyingkiwiguy> nn
 841 2013-03-28 09:26:01 <topi`> flyingkiwiguy: have you seen genjix? he used to give talks in london
 842 2013-03-28 09:26:08 <flyingkiwiguy> not recently
 843 2013-03-28 09:26:21 <flyingkiwiguy> a newspaper article had him squatting somewhere in London
 844 2013-03-28 09:26:24 <topi`> flyingkiwiguy: he's kind of disappeared. that's too bad, since he was good at community making
 845 2013-03-28 09:26:36 forever-d has joined
 846 2013-03-28 09:26:40 <flyingkiwiguy> yeah
 847 2013-03-28 09:26:59 forever-d is now known as Guest60817
 848 2013-03-28 09:27:13 <topi`> we met in Amsterdam back in 2011, he was the one who introduced me to bitcoins
 849 2013-03-28 09:27:19 <flyingkiwiguy> "Mihai Alisie, editor of Bitcoin Magazine, and Amir Taaki, a Bitcoin developer and activist, in a squat in London" http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/22/silk-road-online-drug-marketplace
 850 2013-03-28 09:27:22 cads has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 851 2013-03-28 09:27:33 <flyingkiwiguy> same here in July 2011
 852 2013-03-28 09:27:39 <topi`> and now i'm soon a millionaire, borrowing maxkeiser's words ;)
 853 2013-03-28 09:27:44 <flyingkiwiguy> I was tryign to find investors in Intersango for him
 854 2013-03-28 09:28:06 <Rebroad> what is the deal with Intersango right now? Are they trading GBP?
 855 2013-03-28 09:28:18 <flyingkiwiguy> GBP bank acct shut down, so not really
 856 2013-03-28 09:28:24 lodse has joined
 857 2013-03-28 09:28:33 * flyingkiwiguy uses bitcoin-24 these days
 858 2013-03-28 09:28:49 <Rebroad> it seems odd that they're still posting exchange rates for GBP then...
 859 2013-03-28 09:29:14 <Rebroad> (OT for dev.. sorry)
 860 2013-03-28 09:29:42 <flyingkiwiguy> https://support.intersango.com/status
 861 2013-03-28 09:30:15 <topi`> Rebroad: I think you can withdraw GBP, but not deposit
 862 2013-03-28 09:30:52 <topi`> they had difficulties with their back already back in 2011, I think, so I'm not very surprised. the SEPA transfers are handled by a Polish bank, which seems to be more relaxed.
 863 2013-03-28 09:31:05 <flyingkiwiguy> back !OT - I'm trying to performance test bitcoind, and incidentially are now generating a bit of pseudo-traffic on testnet3
 864 2013-03-28 09:31:20 <flyingkiwiguy> UK banks are probelmatic
 865 2013-03-28 09:31:51 <flyingkiwiguy> has anyone published performance metrics for bitcoind 0.8.x?
 866 2013-03-28 09:32:21 <flyingkiwiguy> I seem to get about 6 tx/minute/bitcoind
 867 2013-03-28 09:32:32 <flyingkiwiguy> depededent on # of inputs
 868 2013-03-28 09:33:07 <Belxjander> any good bitcoin/bitcoind "Wallet"/"management" examples in python without mining support?
 869 2013-03-28 09:33:07 <flyingkiwiguy> *dependant (too much time in teh USA...)
 870 2013-03-28 09:33:17 <qdii> hey
 871 2013-03-28 09:34:52 <topi`> Belxjander: you could check out jgarzik's python tools for bitcoin
 872 2013-03-28 09:35:49 Guest60817 has left ()
 873 2013-03-28 09:36:21 <Belxjander> topi`: cool,  grabbed a zip of that earlier
 874 2013-03-28 09:36:28 Optimus-Prime has quit (Quit: Optimus-Prime)
 875 2013-03-28 09:37:19 <MC1984> i though sango had sepa gbp facility
 876 2013-03-28 09:37:32 <MC1984> they cant get a uk bank acount anymore nor can anyone else
 877 2013-03-28 09:38:13 datagutt has joined
 878 2013-03-28 09:39:16 OPrime has joined
 879 2013-03-28 09:41:29 tockitj has joined
 880 2013-03-28 09:41:45 * Belxjander will stick with downloading the blockchain as a #1 activity
 881 2013-03-28 09:42:00 <Belxjander> and then start seeing about a "local" Wallet on this Amiga
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 885 2013-03-28 09:42:15 <Belxjander> after that I will see what I can do about connecting this FPGA for hashing
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 887 2013-03-28 09:45:17 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 888 2013-03-28 09:49:39 <denisx> is there a dollar/difficulty chart anywhere?
 889 2013-03-28 09:50:03 Hawkwood has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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 893 2013-03-28 09:52:51 <warren> It'd be great if we could easily chart that data along with this stuff: http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/
 894 2013-03-28 09:53:33 <digitalmagus> warren: does 'FRED' offer the raw data?
 895 2013-03-28 09:53:38 <digitalmagus> or just precompiled charts?
 896 2013-03-28 09:53:51 <warren> digitalmagus: both
 897 2013-03-28 09:54:01 <digitalmagus> then it's theoretically possible :)
 898 2013-03-28 09:54:23 <digitalmagus> I must say the federal reserve sux, but they do offer lots of great chart porn
 899 2013-03-28 09:54:51 <abadr> I'm reading https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fee, trying to figure out how much transaction fee to include in my raw transactions. When they refer to the "size" of a transaction, is that when they're hex-encoded as in the output of "getrawtransaction", or would it be the equivalent size in bytes instead of hex?
 900 2013-03-28 09:55:40 <RoboTeddy> abadr: I'm not familiar with the code, but I would be surprised if it weren't the actual size in bytes
 901 2013-03-28 09:55:41 <warren> digitalmagus: the fun stuff doesn't have free public charts
 902 2013-03-28 09:55:50 <warren> digitalmagus: commodities futures markets
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 904 2013-03-28 09:56:30 <RoboTeddy> abadr: the size in bytes is likely what miners have to incorporate in the list of transactions, so mining cost/transaction is proportional to size in bytes
 905 2013-03-28 09:57:08 <RoboTeddy> abadr: (but I am just speculating)
 906 2013-03-28 09:57:13 <abadr> kk
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 909 2013-03-28 10:04:35 <toffoo> re-indexing complete
 910 2013-03-28 10:05:20 <toffoo> 1hr 26mins
 911 2013-03-28 10:05:41 <toffoo> lucky i have a wicked macbook retina with SSD
 912 2013-03-28 10:06:52 <toffoo> because i sure didn't think i'd have to sit thru that more than once
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 916 2013-03-28 10:09:08 <MC1984> not bad
 917 2013-03-28 10:09:29 <MC1984> i dont think SSDs should be that much better than spinny discs anymore
 918 2013-03-28 10:09:33 <MC1984> for bitcoin
 919 2013-03-28 10:09:40 <MC1984> CPU is the bottleneck now
 920 2013-03-28 10:09:57 <MC1984> though i still consider checkpointed syncs as cheating somewhat
 921 2013-03-28 10:10:22 <MC1984> yet another necessary evil
 922 2013-03-28 10:11:50 RoboTedd_ has joined
 923 2013-03-28 10:12:39 <topi`> toffoo: my 0.8.0 is *still* reindexing, now in january
 924 2013-03-28 10:13:43 <toffoo> january?
 925 2013-03-28 10:13:56 <topi`> toffoo: reindexing at block 216173, which happened in january
 926 2013-03-28 10:14:02 <topi`> so still 2 months to catch :)
 927 2013-03-28 10:14:04 <toffoo> ah ok
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 931 2013-03-28 10:14:26 <topi`> toffoo: as somebody just told me, 0.8.1 has a checkpoint in march
 932 2013-03-28 10:14:26 <toffoo> ya it seems to go slower as it moves along too    ;(
 933 2013-03-28 10:14:30 <topi`> so a lot less reindexing
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 935 2013-03-28 10:15:27 <toffoo> yes mine is 0.8.1 and it took almost 1.5 hrs on a very fast machine
 936 2013-03-28 10:15:28 <denisx> topi`: yes, it was me
 937 2013-03-28 10:15:35 <denisx> you should upgrade to 0.8.1 anyway
 938 2013-03-28 10:15:49 <topi`> probably so. any bad bugs
 939 2013-03-28 10:15:50 <topi`> ?
 940 2013-03-28 10:16:20 <denisx> topi`: 0.8.1 has very few but important changes
 941 2013-03-28 10:17:18 <denisx> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2373
 942 2013-03-28 10:17:22 <denisx> look for yourself
 943 2013-03-28 10:17:51 cads has joined
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 945 2013-03-28 10:19:01 <topi`> denisx: it looks like only stuff that is important for miners, namely the 500k limit and a checkblock rule
 946 2013-03-28 10:19:25 <denisx> topi`: yes, and the new checkpoint
 947 2013-03-28 10:19:36 <denisx> and that you cant seed an invalid block to others
 948 2013-03-28 10:20:52 <topi`> ok, I guess that might make it easier to avoid such forks
 949 2013-03-28 10:20:58 <topi`> even for non-miners
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 952 2013-03-28 10:23:25 <qdii> why is there irc.{cpp,h} on the src code?
 953 2013-03-28 10:23:34 * qdii going through the source code
 954 2013-03-28 10:23:57 * qdii appalled by the Win32 Syntax
 955 2013-03-28 10:24:09 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
 956 2013-03-28 10:25:36 <sipa> qdii: historically, that is how bitcoin bootstrapped
 957 2013-03-28 10:26:03 <sipa> it's been off by default for ages and will probably be removed soon
 958 2013-03-28 10:26:36 <qdii> ah okay :) for a moment I thought you wanted to integrate a chat option to the official client
 959 2013-03-28 10:26:55 <sipa> hell no :)
 960 2013-03-28 10:27:07 <warren> bitcoin is technically a botnet, and don't botnets use IRC for communication? =)
 961 2013-03-28 10:27:08 <whizter> how can i calculate the public-key (hex-hash) of a bitcoin address?
 962 2013-03-28 10:27:31 <qdii> warren: good point
 963 2013-03-28 10:29:57 <topi`> whizter: I bet there's plenty of javascript on the 'net for just that
 964 2013-03-28 10:30:28 <SomeoneWeird> warren, lol
 965 2013-03-28 10:31:11 <sipa> whizter: an address is the base58check-encoded hash of the public key
 966 2013-03-28 10:31:38 <whizter> sipa, thanks
 967 2013-03-28 10:31:41 <sipa> whizter: given an address you can find that hash easily, but not the full original public key
 968 2013-03-28 10:32:07 testnode9 has joined
 969 2013-03-28 10:32:19 <whizter> ok, I just need the short version for mtgox api which doesn't accept the address, just the hash
 970 2013-03-28 10:32:40 <sipa> that's weird
 971 2013-03-28 10:32:46 <whizter> yes
 972 2013-03-28 10:32:52 <qdii> so what's the developing cycle of bitcoin-qt? when you guys commit a bug, is there a dev version first, then testing, then release?
 973 2013-03-28 10:33:42 <sipa> qdii: git head and pull requests are always tested by a script
 974 2013-03-28 10:33:55 <Happzz> so i found a bug
 975 2013-03-28 10:34:02 <whizter> sipa, MagicalTux says it adds to much weight to accept the address
 976 2013-03-28 10:34:03 <Happzz> if you enter walletpassphrase "password" 0
 977 2013-03-28 10:34:06 <Happzz> bitcoin-qt crashes
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 979 2013-03-28 10:34:24 <Happzz> 0.8.0
 980 2013-03-28 10:34:33 <sipa> qdii: at some point there's a feature freeze, then release candidates, and then a final version
 981 2013-03-28 10:35:07 <sipa> qdii: releases are determinustically built on gitian, so you can verify they match the git tagged source
 982 2013-03-28 10:35:15 <sipa> Happzz: interesting
 983 2013-03-28 10:35:36 <qdii> sipa: what does the test script do?
 984 2013-03-28 10:36:02 <Happzz> sipa also, on another matter, why does it take bitcoin-qt so long to import a private key
 985 2013-03-28 10:36:08 <Happzz> i realize it needs to scan everything
 986 2013-03-28 10:36:14 <Happzz> but it wasn't even used before
 987 2013-03-28 10:36:20 <Happzz> so it's not like there's much to compute..
 988 2013-03-28 10:36:43 <sipa> qdii: run unit tests, and there's an integration test which feeds it a series of blocks designed to trigger edge cases
 989 2013-03-28 10:36:58 <sipa> Happzz: it doesn't know that it wasn't used before
 990 2013-03-28 10:37:21 <Happzz> it takes far too long :(
 991 2013-03-28 10:37:26 <sipa> Happzz: you can add a 'false' after importprivkey key to make it skip the rescan
 992 2013-03-28 10:37:35 <Happzz> aw
 993 2013-03-28 10:38:02 <sipa> qdii: pulltester by BlueMatt
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1001 2013-03-28 10:47:41 <abadr> is there a way I can get bitcoind to help me calculate the mandatory transaction fee for a raw transaction I'm creating?
1002 2013-03-28 10:49:22 <sipa> abadr: 0.0005 per kB
1003 2013-03-28 10:50:56 <abadr> where the size in bytes is  len(createrawtransaction_output) / 2 ?
1004 2013-03-28 10:51:10 <topi`> I think luke's pool is still accepting txfeeless transactions?
1005 2013-03-28 10:53:49 rebroad_ has joined
1006 2013-03-28 10:54:53 <sipa> and it's mandatory if there are outputs below 0.01 BTC, or if the bitcoin days destroyed per byte is less than 0.004
1007 2013-03-28 10:55:07 <sipa> abadr: indeed
1008 2013-03-28 10:55:15 <Grishnap> hmm, gmaxwell, thanks for that shell script. Also, in your statistics you mention a subsidy of 25 btc per block. Payoffs were like only slightly higher than 25 for the most part. Is this 25 BTC subsidy the coveted "miner's fee" that has prompted the hashing arms race?
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1010 2013-03-28 10:55:54 <sipa> Grishnap: sure, miners receive the introduction of new coins in the system
1011 2013-03-28 10:56:04 <abadr> so I construct an initial txn, sign it, calculate fees, then change it to reduce the outputs by the fee amount, resign, and send
1012 2013-03-28 10:56:06 <abadr> but what if after i resign it it's bigger? <:|
1013 2013-03-28 10:56:59 <sipa> abadr: account for the signature size in advance :)
1014 2013-03-28 10:57:16 <Grishnap> thanks sipa
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1019 2013-03-28 11:03:05 <abadr> ty
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1022 2013-03-28 11:10:45 <Happzz> anyone with testnet coins?
1023 2013-03-28 11:10:47 <Happzz> i needs ome
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1027 2013-03-28 11:15:12 <rebroad_> Happzz, tried a faucet?
1028 2013-03-28 11:15:16 <Blaster_> hey can anyone tell me what a wallet.enc is?  I lost access to my wallet and I am wondering what this file might be
1029 2013-03-28 11:15:25 <Happzz> rebroad_ can't find any
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1032 2013-03-28 11:29:05 <Happzz> umm
1033 2013-03-28 11:29:07 <Happzz> testnet:
1034 2013-03-28 11:29:07 <Happzz>  [2013-03-28 13:06:16] Found block for pool 0!
1035 2013-03-28 11:29:07 <Happzz>  [2013-03-28 13:06:16] Rejected 00f6615b Diff 265/1 BLOCK! GPU 0
1036 2013-03-28 11:29:07 <Happzz>  [2013-03-28 13:06:32] Found block for pool 0!
1037 2013-03-28 11:29:07 <Happzz>  [2013-03-28 13:06:32] Rejected a6962b9d Diff 1/1 BLOCK! GPU 0
1038 2013-03-28 11:29:08 <Happzz>  [2013-03-28 13:06:45] New block detected on network
1039 2013-03-28 11:29:12 <Happzz> any idea why?
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1185 2013-03-28 11:47:41 <flyingkiwiguy> Happzz: could be because someone else found it first?
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1193 2013-03-28 11:48:42 <flyingkiwiguy> I got the impression that people were requested not to use GPUs on testnet3
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1196 2013-03-28 11:49:18 <denisx> flyingkiwiguy: there is no "found it first"
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1220 2013-03-28 12:07:06 <finway> Question about double spend:  if  there's tx A which is ledgit, tx B which is double spend. if tx A is in almost in every node's mempool ,  will tx B be rejected by these nodes ?
1221 2013-03-28 12:07:12 coderrr has joined
1222 2013-03-28 12:07:23 <finway> *legit
1223 2013-03-28 12:07:37 <johnsoft> yes
1224 2013-03-28 12:07:49 <johnsoft> inputs are first come first serve
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1226 2013-03-28 12:08:01 <johnsoft> on the official client at least
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1230 2013-03-28 12:09:22 <finway> If a unconfirmed tx is waiting too long ( like 144 blocks) and have not made in blocks, will it disapper or be cleaned ?
1231 2013-03-28 12:09:49 <finway> * waiting for too long  --sorry for my english
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1233 2013-03-28 12:10:22 <flyingkiwiguy> denisx: I sit corrected!
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1235 2013-03-28 12:10:34 <johnsoft> that i have no idea
1236 2013-03-28 12:10:50 <johnsoft> i assume if it isn't confirmed for 144 blocks, there's something wrong with it
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1338 2013-03-28 14:00:19 <MC1984> strange question
1339 2013-03-28 14:00:31 <MC1984> does running p2pool without mining on it help the network anyway
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1342 2013-03-28 14:01:59 <rdponticelli> MC1984: Yes, it would help the p2pool network
1343 2013-03-28 14:02:07 Guest41678 has quit (Client Quit)
1344 2013-03-28 14:02:18 <rdponticelli> Specially if you have your port open
1345 2013-03-28 14:02:39 <MC1984> how exactly
1346 2013-03-28 14:02:41 triciam has joined
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1348 2013-03-28 14:03:46 <rdponticelli> Relaying transactions, helping on peer discovery...
1349 2013-03-28 14:04:02 <rdponticelli> s/transactions/shares/
1350 2013-03-28 14:04:17 <MC1984> so its a lot like bitcoin in that regard
1351 2013-03-28 14:05:16 <rdponticelli> Yeah, it's a lot like most p2p stuff
1352 2013-03-28 14:05:46 <rdponticelli> The most, the merrier :)
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1354 2013-03-28 14:06:04 <MC1984> hmm i dont know if ive got the ram for this
1355 2013-03-28 14:06:08 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1356 2013-03-28 14:06:21 <MC1984> i already run bitcoin to help out
1357 2013-03-28 14:07:50 pricad__ has joined
1358 2013-03-28 14:07:52 <MC1984> does bitcoind have a -verbose switch or whatever
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1360 2013-03-28 14:08:39 <rdponticelli> MC1984: -debug
1361 2013-03-28 14:08:55 <MC1984> ok
1362 2013-03-28 14:09:13 <MC1984> maybe i can rig up a batch file to start bitcoind and p2pool together
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1365 2013-03-28 14:11:50 <MC1984> its probably going to be a shit to make sure bitcoin starts before p2pool eh
1366 2013-03-28 14:12:06 <MC1984> maybe ill have to use the ping trick
1367 2013-03-28 14:13:10 <sipa> no need to guarantee that
1368 2013-03-28 14:13:19 <rdponticelli> MC1984: It doesn't matters, p2pool keeps trying until bitcoind is ready
1369 2013-03-28 14:13:21 <sipa> p2pool will detect that bitcoind is down, and poll until it's back
1370 2013-03-28 14:13:29 <MC1984> oh cool
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1376 2013-03-28 14:19:33 <Eliel_> anyone know what's up with en.bitcoin.it domain? it's not resolving.
1377 2013-03-28 14:21:44 <kinlo> they're playing with it
1378 2013-03-28 14:21:51 <kinlo> Last Update:        2013-03-28 14:38:53
1379 2013-03-28 14:22:15 <kinlo> if that's CET, and I believe it is, that's like 20 minutes ago that they've changed the domain information
1380 2013-03-28 14:22:45 <MC1984> what i need is a little server which i can stuff with as many nifty p2p projects as i can find
1381 2013-03-28 14:22:50 <kinlo> don't know if it already was cloudflare, but it's configured ot be hosted on cloudflare now... probably still busy with that setup
1382 2013-03-28 14:23:38 <sipa> MC1984: a vps?
1383 2013-03-28 14:24:00 <MC1984> maybe
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1385 2013-03-28 14:24:18 <MC1984> i hear a bitcoin is heayweight even on its own on a vps though
1386 2013-03-28 14:24:39 <MC1984> and i consider it cheating a bit and not in the spirit of p2p
1387 2013-03-28 14:24:55 <Graet> depends on the power of your vps :P
1388 2013-03-28 14:25:12 <helo> sipa: interested in anything in particular? another "Misbehaving: 173.67.188.121:8333 (90 -> 100) DISCONNECTING" -> CHECKSUM ERROR x 2 -> glibc error sigabrt? have gdb sitting at #11 0x00000000005d3ea7 in ThreadSocketHandler2 (parg=0x0) at src/net.cpp:98
1389 2013-03-28 14:25:15 <MC1984> in fact i used to have a little 1U under the desk but it died
1390 2013-03-28 14:25:18 <Graet> dual cpu 8gb ram is fine ;)
1391 2013-03-28 14:25:33 <MC1984> i even ran skype altruistically back when it was actually a p2p network
1392 2013-03-28 14:25:46 <MC1984> a supernode
1393 2013-03-28 14:25:49 <sipa> helo: yeah, i've seen things like that several times already, but i can't find it
1394 2013-03-28 14:25:59 <sipa> helo: going to try to reproduce in valgrind
1395 2013-03-28 14:26:20 <helo> *src/net.cpp:986
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1398 2013-03-28 14:29:57 <JWU42> any good info on how to avoid (minimize0 orphan blocks as a solo miner?
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1402 2013-03-28 14:33:51 <Graet> have a fast upload and dont find blocks at same time as other miners :)
1403 2013-03-28 14:35:00 <JWU42> wiseass ;)
1404 2013-03-28 14:35:14 <Graet> :)
1405 2013-03-28 14:35:22 <Graet> serioulsy thats it
1406 2013-03-28 14:35:40 <Graet> the advantage pools have is good upload bandwith compoared to most residential miners
1407 2013-03-28 14:35:49 <Graet> which helps with propagation
1408 2013-03-28 14:35:53 <JWU42> agreed
1409 2013-03-28 14:36:16 <JWU42> 4 Mbps isn't 1 Gbps
1410 2013-03-28 14:36:19 <JWU42> ;)
1411 2013-03-28 14:36:53 <Graet> :)
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1414 2013-03-28 14:41:21 <JWU42> EC2 would be sufficiently large pipe you would think...
1415 2013-03-28 14:41:33 <Graet> yes
1416 2013-03-28 14:41:56 <JWU42> 30 connects would be sufficient
1417 2013-03-28 14:42:35 <JWU42> Luke and gmaxwell were hinting that more isn't better with mining nodes
1418 2013-03-28 14:42:40 <JWU42> IIRC
1419 2013-03-28 14:42:51 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1420 2013-03-28 14:45:56 p8m has joined
1421 2013-03-28 14:48:36 wa1den has joined
1422 2013-03-28 14:48:56 <helo> sounds legit
1423 2013-03-28 14:50:21 <Belxjander> Graet: distributed "upload" of results really then?
1424 2013-03-28 14:50:36 <Belxjander> Graet: the more distributed workers you have with decent links the better for any given "pool"?
1425 2013-03-28 14:51:14 abadr has joined
1426 2013-03-28 14:51:37 <Graet> the better connection pools have to other quick nodes helps propagation,
1427 2013-03-28 14:52:46 <abadr> how do I get the configuration of an already-running bitcoind?
1428 2013-03-28 14:53:42 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
1429 2013-03-28 14:53:51 Phraust has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1430 2013-03-28 14:54:15 Phraust has joined
1431 2013-03-28 14:55:15 <sipa> abadr: hmm?
1432 2013-03-28 14:55:53 <abadr> is it possible to tell it to dump it's configuration params? like what flags it ended up with after reading the command line and .conf file
1433 2013-03-28 14:56:06 <sipa> hmm, no
1434 2013-03-28 14:56:09 nus has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1435 2013-03-28 14:56:11 <sipa> i guess that would make sense to have
1436 2013-03-28 14:56:27 <abadr> it would be helpful to me at this particular moment :)
1437 2013-03-28 14:56:32 nus has joined
1438 2013-03-28 14:57:00 hsmiths has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1439 2013-03-28 14:57:05 <Saberu> how do i programme an fpga for decryption? there's no tutorials out there
1440 2013-03-28 14:57:20 <sipa> do you know how to program an FPGA?
1441 2013-03-28 14:58:44 saulimus has joined
1442 2013-03-28 14:58:57 <Saberu> only the basics, i have the software to do it though. another option is I have $2-3k available to pay a programmer but I'm not sure if it will be enough
1443 2013-03-28 14:59:25 <sipa> what do you want to do in the first place?
1444 2013-03-28 14:59:51 hsmiths has joined
1445 2013-03-28 15:00:55 <Saberu> i want to programme an fpga for litecoin/ scrypt decryption
1446 2013-03-28 15:01:09 normanrichards has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1447 2013-03-28 15:01:17 <petertodd> do you understand what scrypt is for?
1448 2013-03-28 15:01:23 <sipa> litecoin doesn't use scrypt for encryption
1449 2013-03-28 15:01:31 <sipa> only as a proof-of-work hash
1450 2013-03-28 15:02:09 saivann_ has joined
1451 2013-03-28 15:02:50 <Saberu> so what does it use?
1452 2013-03-28 15:03:00 <sipa> for what?
1453 2013-03-28 15:03:03 wa1den has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1454 2013-03-28 15:03:41 saivann has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1455 2013-03-28 15:03:57 <BlueMatt> do we still have a press ml that I can link people to?
1456 2013-03-28 15:05:51 <abadr> Saberu: if you're trying to mine litecoin, you should use someone else's already-written software
1457 2013-03-28 15:06:04 <abadr> unless you're just trying to learn :)
1458 2013-03-28 15:06:42 <Saberu> i already have software, but i need to programme the fpga
1459 2013-03-28 15:06:59 <sipa> Saberu: what if your goal?
1460 2013-03-28 15:07:07 <Saberu> i assume the fpga needs to be programmed to do the work, rather than just data in data out
1461 2013-03-28 15:07:18 <Saberu> my goal is to use my fpga for litecoin mining
1462 2013-03-28 15:07:29 <sipa> have you ever programmed an FPGA before?
1463 2013-03-28 15:07:54 <Saberu> no, hence why im wondering if i should outsource the work to a person or company
1464 2013-03-28 15:08:05 <Saberu> but i dont know if paying them $2-3k would be enough
1465 2013-03-28 15:08:14 <Belxjander> Saberu: Verilog/VHDL coding?
1466 2013-03-28 15:09:24 <Graet> offtopc in #bitcoin-dev but you will need more ram on your fpga to do scrypt mining, which is where fpga become expensive to do it
1467 2013-03-28 15:09:55 <Saberu> yes
1468 2013-03-28 15:10:26 <MC1984> how much ram does litecoins ersion of scrypt want
1469 2013-03-28 15:10:39 <sipa> 128 KiB, iirc
1470 2013-03-28 15:10:48 <MC1984> wat, thats tiny
1471 2013-03-28 15:10:54 <Saberu> Graet i already know that, and have already designed the fpga with more ram
1472 2013-03-28 15:10:55 <Saberu> 128kbit per thread, which is a lot if you run thousands of threads
1473 2013-03-28 15:10:56 <Saberu> actually i think there's a way to make it use more per thread too
1474 2013-03-28 15:11:00 <MC1984> how is that meant to prevent gpu mining
1475 2013-03-28 15:11:04 <Saberu> oh, kB then
1476 2013-03-28 15:11:08 <topi`> it seems some clue is needed.
1477 2013-03-28 15:11:14 <MC1984> gfx cards have 4gb these days
1478 2013-03-28 15:13:52 <sipa> what is testnet3's current height?
1479 2013-03-28 15:13:59 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1480 2013-03-28 15:14:11 <sipa> ok 66297, got it
1481 2013-03-28 15:14:25 <MC1984> is no one bothered that litecoin turned out to be a lie then
1482 2013-03-28 15:14:53 <sipa> it certainly failed to meat its goal
1483 2013-03-28 15:15:02 <Saberu> why is it a lie?
1484 2013-03-28 15:15:06 duckybsd has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1485 2013-03-28 15:15:26 <MC1984> people are just treating it as lolbitcoin2 now
1486 2013-03-28 15:15:43 <Saberu> the whole point of litecoin is that people can't get a huge advantage using FPGA's and asics
1487 2013-03-28 15:15:45 <MC1984> for all the sad saps that didnt get in bitcoin in 2010
1488 2013-03-28 15:16:26 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
1489 2013-03-28 15:16:29 <sipa> Saberu: it was intended to prevent GPU mining, which kinda failed
1490 2013-03-28 15:16:31 <Saberu> e.g. if i make an fpga it might be only 5x faster than a rig with 8 graphics cards. whereas with bitcoin fpga's were much faster when first released
1491 2013-03-28 15:16:46 <sipa> it's probably indeed harder for fpga's and asics
1492 2013-03-28 15:16:58 <Saberu> more than that, to prevent people with fpga/ asic's monopolising
1493 2013-03-28 15:17:18 <MC1984> its not about profit motive
1494 2013-03-28 15:17:22 <MC1984> its about security
1495 2013-03-28 15:17:24 <Belxjander> defiinitely more difficult as you have to run ALL the stages with data or you have "bubbles" of gaps
1496 2013-03-28 15:17:31 <Saberu> i wouldnt even be considering doing an fpga if i thought there's some guy out there with lots of money/expertise that will do it before me, then make asics and monopolise the market
1497 2013-03-28 15:17:48 <MC1984> someone willmake the hardware for their own reasons even if its only 5x better
1498 2013-03-28 15:17:57 <MC1984> its better you get there first
1499 2013-03-28 15:18:03 <MC1984> bitcoin embraces this
1500 2013-03-28 15:18:12 <n1c> embrace/abuse :)
1501 2013-03-28 15:18:23 <MC1984> its the arms race of a species that distrusts each other on a fundamental level
1502 2013-03-28 15:18:41 <Saberu> i see Litecoin as a way to share the oppurtunity with the average guy, instead of just people like ngzhang and BFL
1503 2013-03-28 15:18:42 <Saberu> and asicminer ofcourse
1504 2013-03-28 15:19:25 <Saberu> MC1984 point is even if i dont get there first, there's enough space in the market for everyone because it's not x100 faster like it was with bitcoin
1505 2013-03-28 15:19:52 Optimus-Prime has joined
1506 2013-03-28 15:21:31 <MC1984> you said it
1507 2013-03-28 15:21:35 <MC1984> litecoin is about getting rich
1508 2013-03-28 15:21:48 <MC1984> bitcoin is about a secure distributed transaction ledger
1509 2013-03-28 15:22:29 <MC1984> i liked the idea of a cpu only coin, but it failed its goal
1510 2013-03-28 15:22:51 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1511 2013-03-28 15:23:35 <Saberu> it didn't fail, it's way better than bitcoin for fairness
1512 2013-03-28 15:23:46 <Saberu> on the order of 100x magnitude
1513 2013-03-28 15:24:14 <MC1984> weasel words
1514 2013-03-28 15:24:20 <sipa> i'm not sure whether 'fair' has anything to do with it; more balanced maybe
1515 2013-03-28 15:25:14 <MC1984> also litecoin relys on a certain feature of our current logic paradigm
1516 2013-03-28 15:25:37 <MC1984> that memory is expensive and assymterical to processing power
1517 2013-03-28 15:25:42 <MC1984> bitcoin has no such constraint
1518 2013-03-28 15:26:23 <sipa> i don't see the difference
1519 2013-03-28 15:26:24 kerum has joined
1520 2013-03-28 15:26:43 <sipa> the proof of work just has different characteristics
1521 2013-03-28 15:27:15 <sipa> one that may or may not be better aligned with the ability to verify transactions
1522 2013-03-28 15:28:05 <Saberu> lol memory is cheap :P
1523 2013-03-28 15:28:45 AdamBLevine has joined
1524 2013-03-28 15:29:09 <Saberu> the problem is theres a bottleneck in the bus between the IC chip and the ram, otherwise you could just put lots of memory capacity for a big hash boost
1525 2013-03-28 15:29:10 <MC1984> it relys on a current quirk of modern electronics to stay within its design scope
1526 2013-03-28 15:29:25 <MC1984> bitcoin doesnt except maybe QC but thats way out there
1527 2013-03-28 15:29:27 Michail1_ is now known as Michail1
1528 2013-03-28 15:29:41 <MC1984> also weve established its already out of its design scope
1529 2013-03-28 15:31:19 <AdamBLevine> Hey Everybody, I'm a writer who over the last few weeks has been finding himself reporting increasingly on Bitcoin, and liking it.   So I'm starting up a Podcast called  "Lets Talk Bitcoin" with Trace Mayer (runtogold.com, howtovanish.com) as my co-host and a rotating cast of featured contributors who will produce (with or without my help) and submit 2-10 minute audio segments to be featured in the show.   The format is abou
1530 2013-03-28 15:31:22 <AdamBLevine> and half contributor segments
1531 2013-03-28 15:31:56 <AdamBLevine> I'm looking for people interested in contributing and have asked just about everywhere else in the bitcoin community (Reddit, the forums, a bunch of discussion groups).
1532 2013-03-28 15:32:09 <sipa> The format is about[...] ?
1533 2013-03-28 15:32:13 Tasqa has quit (Changing host)
1534 2013-03-28 15:32:13 Tasqa has joined
1535 2013-03-28 15:32:20 <sipa> (the rest of your sentence got cut off)
1536 2013-03-28 15:32:23 chorao has joined
1537 2013-03-28 15:32:23 chorao has quit (Changing host)
1538 2013-03-28 15:32:23 chorao has joined
1539 2013-03-28 15:32:57 <AdamBLevine> The format is half "live" host segments and half pre-recorded contributor segments
1540 2013-03-28 15:33:55 <AdamBLevine> Also, one of our contributors is probably going to be requesting a brief interview with Gavin or Jeff for the piece we're doing on the fork post-mortem
1541 2013-03-28 15:34:38 <AdamBLevine> I'm happy to answer any questions here, if you're interested but want to talk privately I can be reached at adam@mindtomatter.org
1542 2013-03-28 15:34:59 <n1c> Might be worth your while posting on the forums?
1543 2013-03-28 15:35:05 * gavinandresen wants to hear sipa talk, you should interview him
1544 2013-03-28 15:35:17 <AdamBLevine> I actually got my worst response from the bitcoin forums,
1545 2013-03-28 15:35:26 <AdamBLevine> I posted in both offtopic and project development, not a single reply
1546 2013-03-28 15:35:35 <Saberu> try bitcoin main channel
1547 2013-03-28 15:35:45 chorao5 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1548 2013-03-28 15:35:58 <AdamBLevine> I'll do that ;)
1549 2013-03-28 15:36:01 <n1c> Hehe
1550 2013-03-28 15:36:07 <kinlo> gavinandresen: you never heard sipa talk before ? :)
1551 2013-03-28 15:36:23 <BlueMatt> Im not sure I have
1552 2013-03-28 15:36:25 <AdamBLevine> The interviews we do are going to be more 'produced' than bitcoin has had before
1553 2013-03-28 15:36:39 <kinlo> I'd expected you guys to have met already :)
1554 2013-03-28 15:36:53 <BlueMatt> but I think sipa was at the bitcoin conference
1555 2013-03-28 15:37:25 kerum has left ("-POOF!-")
1556 2013-03-28 15:37:33 <denisx> marketcap of 700 million $ and they don't know each other ;)
1557 2013-03-28 15:38:49 bonks has joined
1558 2013-03-28 15:39:26 puhc has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1559 2013-03-28 15:39:28 <BlueMatt> there are bitcoin conferences...
1560 2013-03-28 15:39:40 <BlueMatt> still...welcome to open source :)
1561 2013-03-28 15:39:53 <sipa> gavinandresen: heh
1562 2013-03-28 15:40:45 <gavinandresen> kinlo: no, never met sipa in person. I don't think I've ever heard him speak, but my flaky memory may just be misremembering
1563 2013-03-28 15:41:01 <AdamBLevine> Ok, posted on the Bitcointalk.org forums again  ;) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=160178.0
1564 2013-03-28 15:41:08 FredEE has joined
1565 2013-03-28 15:41:12 <kinlo> sipa: are you going to the conference?
1566 2013-03-28 15:41:15 <sipa> gavinandresen: i think that correct; hopefully that will change in about 1.5 months :)
1567 2013-03-28 15:41:28 Zarutian has joined
1568 2013-03-28 15:41:31 tonikt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1569 2013-03-28 15:41:35 <gavinandresen> good, you MUST come to the conference.
1570 2013-03-28 15:41:42 <gavinandresen> attendance is mandatory
1571 2013-03-28 15:41:50 <BlueMatt> heh
1572 2013-03-28 15:42:06 <gavinandresen> … if you're absent it will go down on your Permanent Record....
1573 2013-03-28 15:42:26 <BlueMatt> next bitcoin conference needs to be in north carolina
1574 2013-03-28 15:42:33 <sipa> how about Zurich?
1575 2013-03-28 15:42:36 <kinlo> mandatory for sipa or for me ? :)
1576 2013-03-28 15:42:36 <BlueMatt> then jgarzik wont have to travel (and Ill be lazy and show up)
1577 2013-03-28 15:42:43 <BlueMatt> sipa: meh....
1578 2013-03-28 15:42:47 <kinlo> zurich, I might still do, that's within driving distance
1579 2013-03-28 15:44:07 <sipa> kinlo: 6-7 hours :)
1580 2013-03-28 15:44:19 <kinlo> sipa: exactly, if I can crash somewhere, I can do that
1581 2013-03-28 15:45:04 <kinlo> btw, the conference website - can't find it on bitcoin.org and don't see it in topics
1582 2013-03-28 15:45:10 n1c has quit (Quit: Later.)
1583 2013-03-28 15:45:59 <denisx> sipa: you are dutch, right?
1584 2013-03-28 15:46:09 <sipa> belgian, but i speak dutch
1585 2013-03-28 15:46:18 <sipa> kinlo: i have a couch :)
1586 2013-03-28 15:46:34 <denisx> sipa: are you going to OHM?
1587 2013-03-28 15:46:34 <kinlo> sipa: you don't have a conventio!
1588 2013-03-28 15:46:49 <sipa> OHM?
1589 2013-03-28 15:47:08 <denisx> https://ohm2013.org/site/
1590 2013-03-28 15:47:43 fake-kerum has joined
1591 2013-03-28 15:47:56 <kinlo> heh, even google can't vie me the url for the conference website
1592 2013-03-28 15:48:08 <kinlo> give*
1593 2013-03-28 15:48:14 <BlueMatt> bitcoin2013.com
1594 2013-03-28 15:48:35 fake-kerum has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1595 2013-03-28 15:48:41 kerum has joined
1596 2013-03-28 15:48:45 <Graet> yeah its well hidden kinlo , i had to search a bit :P
1597 2013-03-28 15:48:57 <sipa> denisx: hmm no
1598 2013-03-28 15:50:09 <kinlo> thanks
1599 2013-03-28 15:50:19 kerum has quit (Client Quit)
1600 2013-03-28 15:50:54 <kinlo> ok so the date is not even near the time I have to go to the us, so can't combine stuff, too bad
1601 2013-03-28 15:50:57 paraipan has joined
1602 2013-03-28 15:51:16 <kinlo> so a conference in zurich, or belgium for that matter.  We're the capital of europe, surely we can put a conference in .be :)
1603 2013-03-28 15:51:19 <sipa> gavinandresen: i'll be there :)
1604 2013-03-28 15:51:40 <t7> sipa, not speaking at this one?
1605 2013-03-28 15:51:41 <sipa> kinlo: there have been conferences in london and prague before
1606 2013-03-28 15:51:51 <Graet> i'm trying to make it so i can go, and will have to see if the US govt will let me ;)
1607 2013-03-28 15:51:51 tyn has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1608 2013-03-28 15:51:54 <kinlo> sipa: london too?  I might have gone to london
1609 2013-03-28 15:51:54 * BlueMatt notes that if the conference was like 2 weeks earlier he could have made it :(
1610 2013-03-28 15:52:28 <kinlo> I can just take the train to london the same day no? :)
1611 2013-03-28 15:52:34 tyn has joined
1612 2013-03-28 15:53:00 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1613 2013-03-28 15:53:20 <gavinandresen> There's still a fall conference planned for Vienna, I think
1614 2013-03-28 15:53:30 <gavinandresen> (organized by Amir)
1615 2013-03-28 15:54:21 <sipa> hmm
1616 2013-03-28 15:54:23 <flyingkiwiguy> http://www.unsystem.net/
1617 2013-03-28 15:54:28 <flyingkiwiguy> is the URI
1618 2013-03-28 15:54:31 <sipa> looks like +- the same speakers as in london
1619 2013-03-28 15:55:10 rand_9 has joined
1620 2013-03-28 15:55:24 <sipa> kinlo: london was in september, iirc
1621 2013-03-28 15:55:29 rand_9 has quit (Client Quit)
1622 2013-03-28 15:56:18 <kinlo> sipa: did you go?
1623 2013-03-28 15:56:23 <sipa> yes
1624 2013-03-28 15:56:32 <kinlo> was it interesting?
1625 2013-03-28 15:56:50 <sipa> i'm mostly interested in meeting people; the talks where so-so
1626 2013-03-28 15:57:10 <kinlo> heh, reminds me of last fosdem
1627 2013-03-28 15:57:21 <kinlo> had a few good conversations, but no good talks
1628 2013-03-28 15:57:35 Talus_ has joined
1629 2013-03-28 15:57:42 <sipa> it's been a while since i last was at fosdem
1630 2013-03-28 15:57:47 cultavix has joined
1631 2013-03-28 15:57:59 <kinlo> sipa: and it's so close to home for you...
1632 2013-03-28 15:58:08 paul147 has joined
1633 2013-03-28 15:58:11 <Talus_> hi
1634 2013-03-28 15:58:26 <sipa> yeah, but somehow i have this group of friends that always plan a ski trip that week :)
1635 2013-03-28 15:58:41 <kinlo> priorities!
1636 2013-03-28 15:59:10 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
1637 2013-03-28 15:59:37 darkskiez has joined
1638 2013-03-28 15:59:37 darkskiez has quit (Changing host)
1639 2013-03-28 15:59:37 darkskiez has joined
1640 2013-03-28 15:59:38 <Talus_> I'm trying to start bitcoind as server on Debian
1641 2013-03-28 15:59:39 <Talus_> it start, but print nothing on screen, and it can't receive RPC commands
1642 2013-03-28 15:59:40 D34TH has joined
1643 2013-03-28 15:59:41 <Talus_> I use this command to start it : ./bitcoind -server -deamon
1644 2013-03-28 15:59:43 <Talus_> this is my config file : http://pastie.org/7151598
1645 2013-03-28 16:00:08 <paul147> hey i've got a few resources that i could dedicate to bitcoin, is it even worth my time to set it up?
1646 2013-03-28 16:00:36 <BlueMatt> its always nice to have more nodes accepting incomming connection on the p2p network
1647 2013-03-28 16:01:02 <Talus_> yep but not working actually
1648 2013-03-28 16:01:11 <Talus_> that's why i need some help
1649 2013-03-28 16:01:30 <kinlo> Talus_: it's probably just running, did you try ./bitcoind help ?
1650 2013-03-28 16:01:39 <abadr> Talus_: what do you mean it can't receive RPC commands?
1651 2013-03-28 16:01:41 polrpaul has joined
1652 2013-03-28 16:01:41 <BlueMatt> remove rpcconnect=127.0.0.1
1653 2013-03-28 16:02:02 nomailing has joined
1654 2013-03-28 16:02:13 sl1982 has joined
1655 2013-03-28 16:02:19 <paul147> I have a few laptops, 2 vps, could i make any coin using these or do i need a better setup?
1656 2013-03-28 16:02:34 <BlueMatt> no, not really
1657 2013-03-28 16:02:46 <Talus_> I have the help I have a web page that send "getbalance"
1658 2013-03-28 16:02:46 <BlueMatt> maybe a few dollars a year with a few hundred in power costs
1659 2013-03-28 16:02:49 <kinlo> paul147: mining can't be done with that hardware, so to get coins, you'll have to buy them
1660 2013-03-28 16:02:53 <Talus_> and not working
1661 2013-03-28 16:03:00 <Graet> <Talus_> I use this command to start it : ./bitcoind -server -deamon  <, deamon just for irc or typoed at cmd line too?
1662 2013-03-28 16:03:04 <Graet> daemon ?
1663 2013-03-28 16:03:09 <Belxjander> paul147: would you be CPU mining? if thats the case you would be spending more than you would be getting back in value for the BTC mined if at all
1664 2013-03-28 16:03:15 <BlueMatt> Talus_: did you remove rpcconnect=127.0.0.1
1665 2013-03-28 16:03:43 <paul147> Belxjander: thats good to know, i would need specialized hardware?
1666 2013-03-28 16:04:14 <Talus_> stay not working
1667 2013-03-28 16:04:20 <Belxjander> paul147: decent spec *amd* graphics cards for GPU based mining with cgminer or bfgminer
1668 2013-03-28 16:04:22 <Talus_> without rpcconnect
1669 2013-03-28 16:04:43 <Belxjander> paul147: or buy into an ASIC and wait until it arrives...
1670 2013-03-28 16:04:52 <BlueMatt> Talus_: what does the end of your .bitcoin/debug.log say?
1671 2013-03-28 16:04:52 <Belxjander> paul147: I'm trying to make use of an FPGA I already have
1672 2013-03-28 16:05:03 Furao has joined
1673 2013-03-28 16:05:24 ikbenwouter has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1674 2013-03-28 16:05:28 <paul147> yeah, sounds like mining is out of my league right now
1675 2013-03-28 16:05:37 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
1676 2013-03-28 16:05:52 <paul147> i'd have to find/build some hardware
1677 2013-03-28 16:06:25 <paul147> looks like my mbp has nvidia :-\
1678 2013-03-28 16:06:31 Anduck has joined
1679 2013-03-28 16:06:31 Anduck has quit (Changing host)
1680 2013-03-28 16:06:31 Anduck has joined
1681 2013-03-28 16:07:02 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1682 2013-03-28 16:07:27 <Talus_> ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED
1683 2013-03-28 16:07:29 <Talus_> received block 00000000000008a0b4feb5052729eb256e7505bb58e2483185a8228537241e98
1684 2013-03-28 16:07:42 <Talus_> bitcoind is downloading the block ?
1685 2013-03-28 16:08:12 <BlueMatt> it did download that block
1686 2013-03-28 16:08:13 <sipa> yes?
1687 2013-03-28 16:08:16 <BlueMatt> so bitcoind is running fine
1688 2013-03-28 16:09:27 <bitnumus> so yet again i decide to transfer in a long block :S
1689 2013-03-28 16:09:40 Thepok has joined
1690 2013-03-28 16:10:24 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
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1695 2013-03-28 16:16:42 <Diablo-D3> http://codinginmysleep.com/one-billion-dollars/
1696 2013-03-28 16:18:06 Garr255 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1697 2013-03-28 16:18:15 <sipa> meh
1698 2013-03-28 16:18:32 <sipa> what good is talking about market cap when we have no clue how much % can already be lost?
1699 2013-03-28 16:19:03 <paul147> are there any miners in here?
1700 2013-03-28 16:19:27 <Diablo-D3> sipa: dunno, but Im seriously considering replacing bitcoin and adding one feature
1701 2013-03-28 16:19:54 <Diablo-D3> sipa: any coins not touched for more than 100 years are re-mined
1702 2013-03-28 16:19:55 <jouke> sipa: what is the difference? One could however argue that maybe we should just use 21 million as the amount of bitcoins
1703 2013-03-28 16:20:48 <sipa> jouke: or try to use measures like how much is being traded, instead of looking what may potentially be some upper limit of what is in circulation
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1708 2013-03-28 16:25:36 <Belxjander> Diablo-D3: how would you know the individual coins? ID them?
1709 2013-03-28 16:25:48 D34TH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1710 2013-03-28 16:25:50 <Diablo-D3> yup.
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1713 2013-03-28 16:26:17 <Diablo-D3> any tx that is not referenced in as an in in another tx would be fixed.
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1716 2013-03-28 16:27:23 <flyingkiwiguy> Adi Shamir's paper looks into where the Bitcoins have gone, or not: http://eprint.iacr.org/2012/584.pdf
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1719 2013-03-28 16:27:47 <Belxjander> Diablo-D3: so any coin without a "transaction within set time limit" becomes "expired" and subject to re-mining?
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1722 2013-03-28 16:27:53 <Diablo-D3> Belxjander: yes
1723 2013-03-28 16:28:00 <Diablo-D3> which also requires miners to store the entire blockchain forever
1724 2013-03-28 16:28:08 <Diablo-D3> which isnt That Big Of A Deal(tm)
1725 2013-03-28 16:28:16 <Belxjander> Diablo-D3: maybe that proposal can become part of the existing bitcoin system?
1726 2013-03-28 16:28:35 <flyingkiwiguy> and here is a "days destroyed" chart which approximately measures Bitcoin monetary velocity -
1727 2013-03-28 16:28:38 <flyingkiwiguy> https://blockchain.info/charts/bitcoin-days-destroyed-min-year?timespan=180days&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=
1728 2013-03-28 16:28:41 <sipa> Belxjander: it can't
1729 2013-03-28 16:28:41 <Belxjander> since I was thinking of having an archival blockchain and a "process-cache" blockchain miner
1730 2013-03-28 16:29:05 <sipa> Belxjander: the rule of touching anyone's coins is sort of a very basic social contract in bitcoin
1731 2013-03-28 16:29:07 <Belxjander> sipa: ok... I'll just take your word on that one...
1732 2013-03-28 16:29:14 <Diablo-D3> yeah what sipa said
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1734 2013-03-28 16:29:22 <Diablo-D3> Im not comfortable making the change in bitcoin
1735 2013-03-28 16:29:24 <sipa> though i consider it a good idea myself, it's not something that can be changed
1736 2013-03-28 16:29:31 <Belxjander> sipa: so even if a wallet is never accessed anymore they are basically "lost" coins?
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1739 2013-03-28 16:29:36 <sipa> Belxjander: yes
1740 2013-03-28 16:29:54 <Diablo-D3> I want to make my coin QC hard though
1741 2013-03-28 16:30:00 <Belxjander> maybe put together a "bitcoin v2" and start a seperate blockchain?
1742 2013-03-28 16:30:09 <sipa> several have done so  :)
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1745 2013-03-28 16:30:17 <Diablo-D3> well
1746 2013-03-28 16:30:19 <Diablo-D3> I like scrypt
1747 2013-03-28 16:30:23 <Diablo-D3> but ltc uses so fucking wrong
1748 2013-03-28 16:30:44 <Diablo-D3> scrypt can be QC hard, just tune the knobs
1749 2013-03-28 16:30:46 Orpere has joined
1750 2013-03-28 16:30:50 <paul147> hey if anything goes on that requires programming i'd be game to donate my time :)
1751 2013-03-28 16:31:01 vigilyn has joined
1752 2013-03-28 16:31:23 <Belxjander> paul147: right now I am trying to work out the algorithms myself... reading some of the python scripting and trying to make sense of what actually is needed to happen
1753 2013-03-28 16:33:13 <paul147> Belxjander: if you need another pair of eyes send it over my way
1754 2013-03-28 16:33:56 <Belxjander> paul147: all I have grabbed so far is the projects on github (cgminer/bfgminer/bitcoin/and the FPGA open source thing along with poclm and others)
1755 2013-03-28 16:34:29 <Belxjander> mpbm looks like the one I will try to replicate to AmigaOS for using the FPGA I already have
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1758 2013-03-28 16:35:53 <paul147> gotcha, i've really been wanting to donate to the bitcoin community, taking a look at these sounds like a good starting point
1759 2013-03-28 16:36:21 <AdamBLevine> So does anybody think we're not in a major self-feeding bubble that's going to eventually explode and drop to maybe $10-$20 for a while?
1760 2013-03-28 16:36:32 Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian)
1761 2013-03-28 16:37:00 <pjorrit_> value has sure gone crazy quick
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1764 2013-03-28 16:40:35 <AdamBLevine> And there we go, 100 views with no responses on the main bitcointalk board, then moved to project development where it can die with 8 views like the other post :) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=160199.0
1765 2013-03-28 16:41:01 <AdamBLevine> I guess the bitcointalk crowd isn't interested in podcasts
1766 2013-03-28 16:41:29 redeeman has joined
1767 2013-03-28 16:42:03 <redeeman> hello, i have a question regarding the json-rpc interface, for getrawtransaction, how do i pass the parameters for the txid and then verbose=1
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1783 2013-03-28 16:51:58 <kjj> redeeman: how are you accessing it?
1784 2013-03-28 16:54:38 <redeeman> im connecting via httpurlconnection in java
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1786 2013-03-28 16:55:00 <redeeman> i do to some degree understand json-rpc, but an example of this one call (the params) would be very apreciated
1787 2013-03-28 16:55:20 <sipa> params => ["txid",1]
1788 2013-03-28 16:55:20 <kjj> ok, so are you making the URL by hand and passing it as a string?
1789 2013-03-28 16:55:30 <sipa> eh
1790 2013-03-28 16:55:37 Ashaman has joined
1791 2013-03-28 16:55:46 <redeeman> i did already try that, it doesnt appear to work
1792 2013-03-28 16:56:06 <sipa> does it work with bitcoind?
1793 2013-03-28 16:56:10 <sipa> from the CLI
1794 2013-03-28 16:56:19 <sipa> are you running 0.8.x and didn't turn on txindex?
1795 2013-03-28 16:56:39 <redeeman> oh i did turn on txindex, and it works if i run it from the debug console
1796 2013-03-28 16:56:52 <redeeman> i havent tried from cli, but it does work with the console
1797 2013-03-28 16:56:59 <sipa> for the same txid?
1798 2013-03-28 16:57:01 <redeeman> if i try without the "1" for verbose, it also returns the hex string
1799 2013-03-28 16:57:02 <redeeman> yeah
1800 2013-03-28 16:57:15 <sipa> what is the exact string you're sending?
1801 2013-03-28 16:57:45 <redeeman> {"jsonrpc":"1.0","id":"BitcoinLib","method":"getrawtransaction","params":["c440ab83c615fab9f67f73c8d584263abf853fa39eb25a3f3b168e91c4d9eb3e","1"]}
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1803 2013-03-28 16:57:57 <sipa> not "1"
1804 2013-03-28 16:57:58 <sipa> 1
1805 2013-03-28 16:58:01 <sipa> it's a number
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1807 2013-03-28 16:58:23 <redeeman> oh okay
1808 2013-03-28 16:58:31 <redeeman> thanks will try immediately!
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1817 2013-03-28 17:05:03 <redeeman> sipa, thank you, it works
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1850 2013-03-28 17:57:58 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|If I just enable cpuminer without any extra options and attach it to a LTC pool, will it use the correct algorythm to mine them?
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1855 2013-03-28 18:01:15 <jgarzik> Silox|: stock cpuminer doesn't support LTC (though I would love for someone to integrate support!)
1856 2013-03-28 18:01:15 TD has joined
1857 2013-03-28 18:01:18 <jgarzik> pooler: ^^
1858 2013-03-28 18:01:38 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|oh o_o
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1860 2013-03-28 18:01:43 <pooler> uh? hello :)
1861 2013-03-28 18:01:45 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|maybe that's why I've been mining 4 days without getting any coins.
1862 2013-03-28 18:02:32 <pooler> Silox|: for Litecoin, use https://github.com/pooler/cpuminer
1863 2013-03-28 18:03:03 <jgarzik> pooler: would love to see your changes integrated into cpuminer upstream
1864 2013-03-28 18:03:05 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|But ... that's cpuminer.
1865 2013-03-28 18:03:10 <jgarzik> pooler: also want to add stratum support
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1867 2013-03-28 18:03:19 <Silox> !~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|Ah, it's a modified one.
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1869 2013-03-28 18:03:36 <pooler> i was thinking about it lately, i'm just waiting for some free time
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1894 2013-03-28 18:25:57 <jgarzik> The press board has exploded with bitcoin-related news stories: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=77.0
1895 2013-03-28 18:26:39 <TD> i saw. good work on the bbc story btw
1896 2013-03-28 18:26:42 <sipa> jgarzik: btw, bug found in netmsg stuff :)
1897 2013-03-28 18:26:45 <TD> very nice
1898 2013-03-28 18:26:50 <jgarzik> sipa: I saw that.  Very happy.
1899 2013-03-28 18:27:01 <jgarzik> sipa: Seems to explain the unexplained behavior.
1900 2013-03-28 18:27:04 <sipa> yep
1901 2013-03-28 18:27:06 <petertodd> jgarzik: and that's without the media latching onto the magic billion number either.
1902 2013-03-28 18:27:12 <petertodd> jgarzik: Yet
1903 2013-03-28 18:27:33 nsillik_ has joined
1904 2013-03-28 18:28:13 <jgarzik> petertodd: heh, I couldn't resist: https://twitter.com/jgarzik/status/317329163180707840
1905 2013-03-28 18:29:29 <petertodd> jgarzik: BLOCKHEADER BOT UNEMOTIONAL: https://twitter.com/blockheaders
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1908 2013-03-28 18:30:35 <sipa> we need a twitter_to_p2p.py
1909 2013-03-28 18:30:41 <TD> sigh. i still can't keep bitcoind running. god-damnit
1910 2013-03-28 18:30:47 <TD> it just …… stops
1911 2013-03-28 18:30:56 <sipa> TD: what error? bad_alloc still?
1912 2013-03-28 18:31:01 <TD> no error
1913 2013-03-28 18:31:04 <TD> it just disappears
1914 2013-03-28 18:31:06 <sipa> heh
1915 2013-03-28 18:31:12 <TD> no OOM kill this time either
1916 2013-03-28 18:31:17 <SomeoneWeird> lolwut
1917 2013-03-28 18:31:33 <petertodd> sipa: ha, I'd do it for April 1st but sadly I'm unavailable this weekend
1918 2013-03-28 18:31:46 <redeeman> how do people recommend finding the fee of an incoming transaction?
1919 2013-03-28 18:31:54 rebroad_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1920 2013-03-28 18:32:41 <gmaxwell> redeeman: For what purpose? Note that it may be impossible to know the fees paid to miners exactly, since the transaction may be part of an external agreement with miners.
1921 2013-03-28 18:33:13 <TD> oh, i think i'm still running with the sipa/jgarzik patches
1922 2013-03-28 18:33:15 <TD> so maybe it segfaulted
1923 2013-03-28 18:33:30 <TD> signal handlers that logged the error would be useful
1924 2013-03-28 18:33:36 <redeeman> oh it doesnt matter to me what has been arranged "out of band", i would just like to know how to get the fee, blockchain.info can clearly show it, but im unsure exactly how i go about getting it with json-rpc calls
1925 2013-03-28 18:33:39 <sipa> TD: update then; i think it's very likely that that segfault was fixed
1926 2013-03-28 18:33:54 <gmaxwell> TD: the older versions of those patches have a known crash which is fixed.
1927 2013-03-28 18:34:02 <ryan-c> So, as an experiment, I sent a very small transaction with 0 fee. It's been 12 hours and has not been included in a block. Is it just going to be in limbo forever?
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1929 2013-03-28 18:34:24 <petertodd> redeeman: You have to calculate it yourself by getting the transaction inputs and calculating sum(txins) - sum(txouts)
1930 2013-03-28 18:34:25 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: how small is very small, and what inputs did it spend?
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1932 2013-03-28 18:35:12 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: Spent a single 0.00001234 input to a 0.00000001 and a 0.00001233 output.
1933 2013-03-28 18:35:30 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: oh that probably went nowhere, it shouldn't have even been relayed.
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1935 2013-03-28 18:35:37 <redeeman> petertodd, i kinda figured as such, but isnt that a terrible recursive process since the vin transactions could also involve other transactions?
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1940 2013-03-28 18:36:08 <petertodd> redeeman: No, it's just one level deep.
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1942 2013-03-28 18:36:11 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: It was maybe 300 bytes I think. I just wanted to see what would happen with some coins I was willing to lose.
1943 2013-03-28 18:36:21 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: if you were using the reference client now you get the joy of getting that transaction out of you wallet,— at least it's not much harder than the modifications you had to make to get it to let you send such a txn.
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1948 2013-03-28 18:36:44 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: I made it with a raw transaction.
1949 2013-03-28 18:36:47 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: you won't lose them. startup with salvagewallet and the txn will be forgotten.
1950 2013-03-28 18:36:56 <TD> sipa: hey, it seems we open sourced the base logging code
1951 2013-03-28 18:36:57 <TD> sipa: http://google-glog.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/doc/glog.html
1952 2013-03-28 18:37:00 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: it should have rejected it when you ran sendrawtransaction.
1953 2013-03-28 18:37:03 <redeeman> petertodd, this is the aproach im onto now, but i cant see the address to which the txid i get from vin is part of
1954 2013-03-28 18:37:13 Max_Keiser is now known as Cyrus
1955 2013-03-28 18:37:14 <TD> it might make sense to try and port bitcoin to it at some point. the crash handlers are included.
1956 2013-03-28 18:37:15 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: Really?
1957 2013-03-28 18:37:31 <sipa> TD: oh, nice
1958 2013-03-28 18:37:32 <petertodd> redeeman: Why would that matter?
1959 2013-03-28 18:37:34 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: It seemed fine letting me send it without hacking the source.
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1963 2013-03-28 18:37:52 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: My recollection and expirence was that it would reject anything it wouldn't relay. Did the txn actually show up in your wallet?
1964 2013-03-28 18:38:02 <TD> sipa: it's got CHECK and friends too
1965 2013-03-28 18:38:07 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: Yes, the txn shows up on 'listtransactions'
1966 2013-03-28 18:38:22 <gmaxwell> I think thats a bug then. That transaction doesn't meet the relay rules.
1967 2013-03-28 18:38:36 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: I can pm you the tx number if you're interested.
1968 2013-03-28 18:38:40 <redeeman> petertodd, suppose i wish to find the fee involved in transaction c440ab83c615fab9f67f73c8d584263abf853fa39eb25a3f3b168e91c4d9eb3e, it has only 1 address sending money to another(and it self too)
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1970 2013-03-28 18:38:49 <gmaxwell> petertodd: you need to make a python program to check if the twitter feed and local node agree on the longest chain.
1971 2013-03-28 18:38:55 normanrichards has quit ()
1972 2013-03-28 18:39:09 <redeeman> then i getrawtransaction the txid, and see vin, which contains the new txid, 6d37282ccb5f7031bee92328a8f7fdcbd56301208085fa57e57c6d0e5a92a8a1, which i then getrawtransaction too
1973 2013-03-28 18:39:21 <gmaxwell> redeeman: which you need the txindex to do.
1974 2013-03-28 18:39:24 <redeeman> but then i'd need to see the original address from first transaction, to see output value to it?
1975 2013-03-28 18:39:30 <redeeman> i do have txindex already
1976 2013-03-28 18:39:58 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: as to salvagewallet, at the moment I don't think it was worth the trouble to recover such a small amount.
1977 2013-03-28 18:40:01 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1978 2013-03-28 18:40:07 <redeeman> but what if the transaction included many "origin" addresses, then i'd need some relation between the "source txid" and "source address" ?
1979 2013-03-28 18:40:13 <redeeman> or am i misunderstanding something fundamental?
1980 2013-03-28 18:40:17 Talus_ has joined
1981 2013-03-28 18:40:25 <petertodd> redeeman: See how the first tx, c440ab, says vout: 0 in the json? That means that the output #0 is the one that funded that input.
1982 2013-03-28 18:40:28 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: ::shrugs:: it shouldn't be much trouble.. make a backup restart.. takes a minute or a few to rescan the chain...
1983 2013-03-28 18:40:34 <Talus_> hi
1984 2013-03-28 18:40:56 Sidnicious has joined
1985 2013-03-28 18:41:10 <redeeman> petertodd, so output 0 of the tx 6d372 ?
1986 2013-03-28 18:41:50 <petertodd> redeeman: yup, here's some code I write awhole back to calc fees: http://pastebin.com/RM4Bq1hk
1987 2013-03-28 18:41:56 <sipa> redeeman: transaction inputs always refer to specifc previous transaction output they spend
1988 2013-03-28 18:41:57 Pucilowski_ is now known as Pucilowski
1989 2013-03-28 18:42:08 <sipa> redeeman: you don't need to know any 'source address' to know where it is coming from
1990 2013-03-28 18:42:12 cespanar has joined
1991 2013-03-28 18:42:14 <sipa> (no such thing exists)
1992 2013-03-28 18:42:18 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: For less than a penny?
1993 2013-03-28 18:42:19 dvide has joined
1994 2013-03-28 18:42:22 <petertodd> redeeman: Don't trust it - I wrote it in like a minute to quickly calculate something, but it's probably correct.
1995 2013-03-28 18:42:49 <redeeman> petertodd, ahh, okay, so if vout:0 from vin in c440ab refers to value of n:0 in txid 6d372 then i get it
1996 2013-03-28 18:43:15 <Talus_> someone have already use simplecoin ?
1997 2013-03-28 18:43:29 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: for several hundred bytes of data in the networks perpetual storage.
1998 2013-03-28 18:43:44 poggy has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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2000 2013-03-28 18:44:11 <Sidnicious> Hey. I'm using Bitcoin-qt 0.8.1-beta on a Mac. I'm trying to transfer out the client's full balance. My transaction fee is set to 0.01 BTC. When I try to transfer the full balance, disregarding the fee, I get the message "The total exceeds your balance when the 0.01 BTC transaction fee is included." as expected. If I subtract 0.01 from the amount I'm trying to send, I get the exact same message but with "when the 0.03 BTC
2001 2013-03-28 18:44:11 <Sidnicious> transaction fee is included".
2002 2013-03-28 18:44:18 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Heh, well I want to do a program that would keep a block header database and figure out what's the best block, basically the absolutely minimal SPV client possible, so yeah, it'll have a twitter plugin... as well as my blockheaders via DNS hack.
2003 2013-03-28 18:44:22 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: That is a better reason.
2004 2013-03-28 18:44:27 <petertodd> redeeman: Yup
2005 2013-03-28 18:45:01 <Sidnicious> What's goin' on here? It changes if I change my fee (i.e. if I make my fee 0.001 BTC, it says it's below my balance when including the 0.003 BTC fee if I try to transfer {balance - 0.001})
2006 2013-03-28 18:45:02 <redeeman> excellent, thanks a lot
2007 2013-03-28 18:45:42 datagutt has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2008 2013-03-28 18:45:42 <sipa> Sidnicious: the fee depends on the actual transaction created, which is not always the same
2009 2013-03-28 18:45:50 <sipa> Sidnicious: though it's strange to see such a difference
2010 2013-03-28 18:46:34 MC-Droid has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2011 2013-03-28 18:46:40 <Sidnicious> So how can I calculate the actual fee?
2012 2013-03-28 18:47:19 MC-Droid has joined
2013 2013-03-28 18:47:28 <Sidnicious> Ah, is it a multiple of the transaction fee I set, based on how many transactions need to be created?
2014 2013-03-28 18:47:44 <sipa> there's just one transaction created
2015 2013-03-28 18:47:49 <sipa> but its size may differ
2016 2013-03-28 18:47:58 <sipa> and what you set is the fee per kilobyte
2017 2013-03-28 18:48:10 <Sidnicious> Ooh, I forgot about that. Interesting.
2018 2013-03-28 18:48:13 wrabbit has joined
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2021 2013-03-28 18:49:43 <Sidnicious> It'd be awesome if I could see the fee breakdown before I actually try to execute the transaction
2022 2013-03-28 18:50:12 <sipa> the problem is that it can't be calculated before the transaction is constructed
2023 2013-03-28 18:50:33 <Sidnicious> I just worked around it by setting my fee to zero, which sucks but I'd rather just get this done with, and it doesn't need to be confirmed super quickly.
2024 2013-03-28 18:50:43 <Sidnicious> The client could construct the transaction without submitting it, no?
2025 2013-03-28 18:51:16 <sipa> sure
2026 2013-03-28 18:51:37 <sipa> the current logic is just very bad for "i want to send X; i don't care how much is received"
2027 2013-03-28 18:51:50 <sipa> which is what you want when moving an entire wallet's balance
2028 2013-03-28 18:53:34 <Sidnicious> yeah, that's fair, and I guess it's an edge case
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2030 2013-03-28 18:54:04 <JWU42> seems i ran into this before and cannot recall the fix
2031 2013-03-28 18:54:08 <JWU42> https://www.refheap.com/paste/13052
2032 2013-03-28 18:54:29 <JWU42> ubuntu 12.04 VPS
2033 2013-03-28 18:54:34 <sipa> JWU42: install libdb++
2034 2013-03-28 18:54:52 terry has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2035 2013-03-28 18:55:12 <JWU42> sipa: thks - thought i did
2036 2013-03-28 18:55:18 <redeeman> petertodd, it works, thanks :)
2037 2013-03-28 18:55:19 <JWU42> must have missed a step
2038 2013-03-28 18:55:25 <sipa> JWU42: libdb5.1++-dev
2039 2013-03-28 18:55:36 pete95 has joined
2040 2013-03-28 18:55:49 <sipa> unless you want your wallet to be compatible with non-self-compiled version (which use BDB 4.8)
2041 2013-03-28 18:56:28 <petertodd> redeeman: btw, do you know about jgarzik's python bitcoin library?
2042 2013-03-28 18:56:35 <JWU42> sipa: I saw the comments about 5.1 and wasn't understanding so went with 4.8
2043 2013-03-28 18:56:49 <sipa> JWU42: ubuntu 12.04 doesn't have 4.8
2044 2013-03-28 18:56:55 <redeeman> i saw it mentioned on the wiki, however, i am not developing this in python
2045 2013-03-28 18:57:07 <JWU42> sipa: this appears to...
2046 2013-03-28 18:57:13 oleganza has joined
2047 2013-03-28 18:57:52 <Talus_> i've got some
2048 2013-03-28 18:57:56 <Talus_> [2013-03-28 19:33:22] json_rpc_call failed, retry after 30 seconds
2049 2013-03-28 18:57:57 <Talus_> [2013-03-28 19:34:00] JSON-RPC call failed: {
2050 2013-03-28 18:57:59 <Talus_>    "message": "upstream RPC error",
2051 2013-03-28 18:58:00 <Talus_>    "code": -2
2052 2013-03-28 18:58:02 <Talus_> }
2053 2013-03-28 18:58:03 <Talus_> into my own pool
2054 2013-03-28 18:58:16 <Talus_> what can be wrong with pushpool ?
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2069 2013-03-28 19:10:14 <Talus_> block download, not yet finish ....
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2073 2013-03-28 19:23:52 <JWU42> another easy one I hope -- https://www.refheap.com/paste/13054
2074 2013-03-28 19:24:17 <JWU42> off to google in the interim
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2080 2013-03-28 19:36:05 <JWU42> had to do locale-gen
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2089 2013-03-28 19:44:29 <Conflict> So I will be creating segments for the 'Let's Talk Bitcoin' podcast and I am drumming up/brainstorming ideas for content: What are some topics you would like to see discussed/reported on regarding Bitcoin?
2090 2013-03-28 19:44:56 <Ry4an> shouldn't that be in #bitcoin?
2091 2013-03-28 19:45:07 Habbie has quit (Quit: upgrades)
2092 2013-03-28 19:45:32 cespanar has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
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2095 2013-03-28 19:49:01 <Conflict> Ry4an: hoping to talk about development and wanted to get some ideas from the core team
2096 2013-03-28 19:49:36 <petertodd> Conflict: the blocksize limit...
2097 2013-03-28 19:50:46 <Conflict> petertodd: noted already, thank you.  care to elaborate on it at all?
2098 2013-03-28 19:52:38 normanrichards has joined
2099 2013-03-28 19:52:51 <petertodd> Conflict: Heck, I'd be happy to do an interview on it.
2100 2013-03-28 19:52:58 <petertodd> Conflict: gmaxwell probably would too
2101 2013-03-28 19:54:30 <jgarzik> petertodd: Sweet!  is https://twitter.com/blockheaders you?
2102 2013-03-28 19:54:42 <Conflict> petertodd: i would absolutely be into that. have you used basecamp at all?
2103 2013-03-28 19:55:02 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (away!~PiZZaMaN2@unaffiliated/pizzaman2k|Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
2104 2013-03-28 19:55:02 <petertodd> Conflict: nope, what is it?
2105 2013-03-28 19:55:25 <petertodd> jgarzik: lol, yup
2106 2013-03-28 19:55:51 <Conflict> petertodd: sort of a "project hub organizer"
2107 2013-03-28 19:56:00 <petertodd> Conflict: ah, cool
2108 2013-03-28 19:56:31 Thepok has joined
2109 2013-03-28 19:57:05 <Conflict> the podcast is going to be highly produced, advertisers already interested, but i want quality content from people who know bitcoin from the dev. side of it
2110 2013-03-28 19:57:08 <Conflict> check out https://basecamp.com/2208857/projects/2480413-lets-talk-bitcoin
2111 2013-03-28 19:57:45 <petertodd> Conflict: cool, I'll look that up tonight
2112 2013-03-28 19:57:45 <Conflict> jgarzik: if you would like to be interviewed as well, i would def. love to wrap with you
2113 2013-03-28 19:58:00 <Conflict> petertodd: could i get come contact info for you?
2114 2013-03-28 19:58:17 <petertodd> Conflict: sent
2115 2013-03-28 19:58:17 Garr255 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2116 2013-03-28 19:58:23 <Conflict> ty
2117 2013-03-28 19:58:25 <jgarzik> Conflict: I'm on the bitcoin press list... open for interviews.  Prefer email though.  Just finished up with BBC, CNN and WSJ.
2118 2013-03-28 19:58:26 Optimus-Prime has joined
2119 2013-03-28 19:58:33 <jgarzik> Conflict: jgarzik@exmulti.com
2120 2013-03-28 19:58:52 <Conflict> thanks, both of you.
2121 2013-03-28 19:58:57 <Conflict> gmaxwell: interested? ;)
2122 2013-03-28 19:59:31 <gmaxwell> Conflict: can't really spare many cycles right now for anything serious. But if you've got jgarzik and petertodd. Thats pretty good right there.
2123 2013-03-28 20:00:45 <Conflict> gmaxwell: understood, if you get spare time in the future i have to imagine i'll always be looking for content so just let me know.
2124 2013-03-28 20:01:16 <Conflict> thanks all, petertodd and jgarzik, be in touch soon!
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2130 2013-03-28 20:10:42 <kfreds> This is driving me nuts. There was a question on Stack Exchange and a similar thread on bitcointalk.org about accepting payments without using a third party API, but I can't find it. Someone had made a lib in Python I think...
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2134 2013-03-28 20:15:45 <tockitj> kfreds, what do you mean by accepting payment ?
2135 2013-03-28 20:15:58 pete95 has joined
2136 2013-03-28 20:17:41 <kfreds> tockitj: For businesses. Accept bitcoin payments from customers.
2137 2013-03-28 20:18:03 <tockitj> for that you only need to distribute your address
2138 2013-03-28 20:18:39 <tockitj> miners accept transactions - there is nothing special that has to be done on your behalf
2139 2013-03-28 20:18:47 <tockitj> you do not even have to be online
2140 2013-03-28 20:18:49 <sipa> tockitj: that's not what he means, i guess
2141 2013-03-28 20:18:58 <sipa> i think he means getting notified about incoming payments
2142 2013-03-28 20:19:01 <sipa> tracking them, ...
2143 2013-03-28 20:19:02 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2144 2013-03-28 20:19:15 <tockitj> blockchain.info can do that ?
2145 2013-03-28 20:19:25 <sipa> "without using a third party API"
2146 2013-03-28 20:20:41 <kfreds> What sipa said.
2147 2013-03-28 20:21:10 <sipa> you can do with -walletnotify and -blocknotify, but it's sort of tedious
2148 2013-03-28 20:21:22 Bohren has joined
2149 2013-03-28 20:21:24 <gecko> kfreds: You can accept Bitcoins on your website without needing to use Bitcoin APIs or third party services if you pre-generate a large number of receiving Bitcoin addresses and store them in a database on your web server, and dispense them one-by-one to customers when they are ready to pay.
2150 2013-03-28 20:21:43 <sipa> you still need a way to know you're paid
2151 2013-03-28 20:21:59 <gecko>  If you want to develop the system yourself, you can utilize the Bitcoin client's JSON-RPC API to automatically accept payments.?
2152 2013-03-28 20:22:17 <redeeman> thats what im doing now, developing code to interface with the json-rpc api
2153 2013-03-28 20:22:17 <sipa> yes, that's certainly possible, but it's not exactly user-friendly in doing so
2154 2013-03-28 20:22:26 <Habbie> oh, walletnotify is cute
2155 2013-03-28 20:22:29 <Habbie> how long has that been in?
2156 2013-03-28 20:22:36 <sipa> 0.8, i think
2157 2013-03-28 20:22:41 <Habbie> ah
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2170 2013-03-28 20:27:48 <kfreds> Habbie: walletnotify?
2171 2013-03-28 20:27:58 <Habbie> bitcoind -walletnotify
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2173 2013-03-28 20:28:48 <sipa> yes
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2177 2013-03-28 20:31:05 <kadoban> i wonder why i don't see that in the help list on v0.8.1
2178 2013-03-28 20:31:23 <kfreds> That's exactly what I'm thinking about.
2179 2013-03-28 20:31:42 <sipa>   -blocknotify=<cmd>     Execute command when the best block changes (%s in cmd is replaced by block hash)
2180 2013-03-28 20:31:45 <sipa>   -walletnotify=<cmd>    Execute command when a wallet transaction changes (%s in cmd is replaced by TxID)
2181 2013-03-28 20:31:53 <sipa> (copied from ./bitcoind --help)
2182 2013-03-28 20:32:00 licnep has joined
2183 2013-03-28 20:32:10 <kadoban> yeah, i kinda figured, i'm more wondering why it's not on mine...
2184 2013-03-28 20:32:11 Benjojo has joined
2185 2013-03-28 20:32:27 <kfreds> Yup. Not there. I grep'd bitcoind --help as soon as Habbie mentioned it. Not there. Hmm.
2186 2013-03-28 20:32:28 <sipa> are you sure?
2187 2013-03-28 20:32:35 * sipa checks
2188 2013-03-28 20:32:38 <Diablo-D3> what isnt?
2189 2013-03-28 20:32:51 <Habbie> Diablo-D3, -walletnotify is not in -help for some people, apparently
2190 2013-03-28 20:32:52 thelion_ has joined
2191 2013-03-28 20:32:55 <kfreds> Wait. ""version" : 80100"
2192 2013-03-28 20:32:59 <Diablo-D3> lemme check
2193 2013-03-28 20:33:04 <kfreds> Is that too old?
2194 2013-03-28 20:33:06 datagutt has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2195 2013-03-28 20:33:39 <sipa> oh, then it was merged after 0.8 - sorry
2196 2013-03-28 20:33:42 <sipa> i think it was before
2197 2013-03-28 20:33:51 <sipa> *thought
2198 2013-03-28 20:34:15 <Diablo-D3> yeah, 0.8.1 doesnt have it here
2199 2013-03-28 20:34:18 <kadoban> so it's only available on the development branch or something? i'm pretty sure i have the newest version
2200 2013-03-28 20:34:26 <sipa> kadoban: indeed, sorry
2201 2013-03-28 20:34:28 sam has joined
2202 2013-03-28 20:34:58 <kadoban> ah okay, no biggie
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2210 2013-03-28 20:41:21 <mahlertop> questions about public/private keys - how many possible private keys are there?
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2212 2013-03-28 20:42:16 <mahlertop> If you can generate multiple public keys based on label ... based on what is the first public key generated?
2213 2013-03-28 20:42:25 <sipa> 115792089237316195423570985008687907852837564279074904382605163141518161494336
2214 2013-03-28 20:42:29 <sipa> (possible private keys)
2215 2013-03-28 20:42:33 <mahlertop> thanks sipa
2216 2013-03-28 20:42:41 <sipa> (=almost 2^256)
2217 2013-03-28 20:45:22 <mahlertop> do you have an answer to the second question?
2218 2013-03-28 20:45:37 <sipa> i do not understand your question
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2221 2013-03-28 20:46:06 <sipa> public keys are not generated based on a label; you just generate random private keys, and compute their corresponding public keus
2222 2013-03-28 20:46:20 <mahlertop> that answers my question thank you
2223 2013-03-28 20:46:52 <mahlertop> I thought a single private key could have multiple public keys because of the label
2224 2013-03-28 20:47:35 <mahlertop> but you are saying that whenever you generate a new public key, you are generating a new private key at the same time
2225 2013-03-28 20:47:59 <sipa> what do you mean by 'label' ?
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2228 2013-03-28 20:48:11 <Habbie> mahlertop, yes
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2230 2013-03-28 20:48:19 <Habbie> mahlertop, they're called key pairs for a reason
2231 2013-03-28 20:48:20 <sipa> indeed, 1 private key, 1 public key
2232 2013-03-28 20:48:23 <mahlertop> In most wallets you can generate multiple receive-addresses
2233 2013-03-28 20:48:35 <mahlertop> I thought those were multiple public keys
2234 2013-03-28 20:48:46 <Habbie> mahlertop, in most wallets, the labels do not influence the key generation process
2235 2013-03-28 20:48:46 <sipa> each has a corresponding private key
2236 2013-03-28 20:48:56 <sipa> and labels are just a name you give them
2237 2013-03-28 20:49:06 <mahlertop> Alright, I understand
2238 2013-03-28 20:49:10 <mahlertop> thank you
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2266 2013-03-28 21:25:30 <gmaxwell> petertodd: it's annoying your header tweeter can't also fit a cryptographic signature in.
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2288 2013-03-28 21:34:03 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I figure chain data is self-authenticating; I think there is enough space for a ECC sig IIRC.
2289 2013-03-28 21:34:32 <gmaxwell> petertodd: the data itself is self authenticating, thoug the fact that you believe its the longest chain is not.
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2295 2013-03-28 21:36:15 <SomeoneWeird> petertodd, gmaxwell link to a pastiebin with extra details in it? or something like that to bypass the 140 char. limit
2296 2013-03-28 21:36:24 vigilyn has joined
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2298 2013-03-28 21:37:33 <petertodd> gmaxwell: sure, although I'd rather not encourage people to trust it too much - don't accept 1 conf tx's based on it.
2299 2013-03-28 21:37:44 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2300 2013-03-28 21:38:03 <sipa> tweets can contain up to 500 bytes or so
2301 2013-03-28 21:38:34 <sipa> it's 140 character, but each character can be UTF-8 encoded uint32_t
2302 2013-03-28 21:38:53 <Habbie> range is slightly smaller than uint32_t
2303 2013-03-28 21:39:02 <sipa> even characters beyond the defined 17 unicode planes are accepted, afaik
2304 2013-03-28 21:39:13 <petertodd> There is something to be said for using unicode to the max just for the humour value...
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2310 2013-03-28 21:42:52 <gmaxwell> petertodd: makes it harder to decode, alas.
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2313 2013-03-28 21:46:37 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Well, I have 23 characters left right now. Can I use a weaker ECC or something? Bitcoin ECC results in 72byte sigs so...
2314 2013-03-28 21:46:59 <gmaxwell> 64 bit ecdsa seems kinda pointless. :P
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2317 2013-03-28 21:48:25 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I can use a more compact encoding than base64, but without jumping all the way to unicode.
2318 2013-03-28 21:48:56 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Or make a separate best block sigs feed...
2319 2013-03-28 21:49:30 <gmaxwell> (bitcoin's ecc at least has the benefit of being validable with software people already have)
2320 2013-03-28 21:49:30 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Actually, make the separate one a few confs back...
2321 2013-03-28 21:49:54 richcollins has joined
2322 2013-03-28 21:50:25 <petertodd> gmaxwell>: ...and it means the bot only needs one seckey, which it can use to accept donations and pay for hosting.
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2349 2013-03-28 22:19:05 <toffoo> "LevelDB read failure: Corruption: block checksum mismatch"
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2351 2013-03-28 22:19:20 <toffoo> re-indexing now for the third time
2352 2013-03-28 22:19:21 paraipan has joined
2353 2013-03-28 22:19:32 <toffoo> had my first ever bitcoin-qt crash last night,
2354 2013-03-28 22:19:45 <toffoo> now seeing the same thing again after reindexing
2355 2013-03-28 22:19:58 <toffoo> going to have to type up a post to the devs about this,
2356 2013-03-28 22:20:11 <toffoo> sounds like another Mac user was having similar issue yesterday
2357 2013-03-28 22:20:20 <BlueMatt> you just did
2358 2013-03-28 22:22:04 Orpere has joined
2359 2013-03-28 22:22:26 <gmaxwell> toffoo: If its doing this from stedy state— e.g. not after a power failure— I'd recommend checking your disk for errors.  Leveldb throws that when the checksums on disk are actually wrong.
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2367 2013-03-28 22:25:36 <JWU42> what is the url of sipa's listing of connected nodes?
2368 2013-03-28 22:25:44 <JWU42> thought it was /peers.txt
2369 2013-03-28 22:25:57 <JWU42> bitcoin.sipa.be/peers.txt
2370 2013-03-28 22:25:59 <JWU42> ?!
2371 2013-03-28 22:26:20 <JWU42> thks in advance!
2372 2013-03-28 22:26:33 <BlueMatt> it used to be
2373 2013-03-28 22:26:39 stretchwarren has joined
2374 2013-03-28 22:27:03 <JWU42> get a 404 now...
2375 2013-03-28 22:27:04 <JWU42> hrm
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2379 2013-03-28 22:29:30 <toffoo> gmaxwell: it's an SSD, never had any problems with disk errors with anything else
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2382 2013-03-28 22:30:24 <gmaxwell> toffoo: I can only tell you if I were you I'd test the disk for errors at this point.
2383 2013-03-28 22:30:31 skinnkavaj has joined
2384 2013-03-28 22:30:38 <toffoo> now re-indexing just crashed:
2385 2013-03-28 22:30:41 <toffoo> "*** System error: Database corrupted"
2386 2013-03-28 22:30:55 <toffoo> gmaxwell: ok I'll take a look
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2389 2013-03-28 22:31:41 <warren> toffoo: don't know how to do it on mac, but look for smart data from the disk
2390 2013-03-28 22:31:52 peter_167263 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2391 2013-03-28 22:32:36 <gmaxwell> toffoo: during reindex? uh. I believe that means that leveldb is reporting up corrupting on the database the reindex is just creating.
2392 2013-03-28 22:33:39 drapetomano has joined
2393 2013-03-28 22:33:55 <sipa> indeed
2394 2013-03-28 22:34:56 <BlueMatt> I believe Disk Utility will report SMART Data on a mac
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2402 2013-03-28 22:38:35 <toffoo> "The volume Macintosh HD appears to be OK." --diskadmin
2403 2013-03-28 22:38:46 <BlueMatt> does it report dead sectors?
2404 2013-03-28 22:39:06 <BlueMatt> a disk can be "OK" but have a few bad sectors that it wants to allocate to leveldb?
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2406 2013-03-28 22:39:15 <toffoo> maybe
2407 2013-03-28 22:39:18 <BlueMatt> though it probably shouldnt after it tries once
2408 2013-03-28 22:39:33 <BlueMatt> check Disk Utility (I think)
2409 2013-03-28 22:39:43 <toffoo> do SSDs get bad sectors like that?  (this is my first, sorry if dumb question)
2410 2013-03-28 22:39:43 <BlueMatt> there should be something to get the full data, no?
2411 2013-03-28 22:40:04 <BlueMatt> SSDs can fail in all kinds of spectacular ways due to the complicated firmware they run
2412 2013-03-28 22:40:16 <BlueMatt> though they are usually pretty rock-solid.....
2413 2013-03-28 22:40:22 <toffoo> also, this drive is running with OS-level full disk encryption ...
2414 2013-03-28 22:40:27 <sipa> toffoo: did you reboot since the reindex started?
2415 2013-03-28 22:40:42 <toffoo> I'd thing that the OS would pick it up first if there were bad sectors
2416 2013-03-28 22:40:45 <Scrat> toffoo: sure they do. error correction usually saves it
2417 2013-03-28 22:40:49 <toffoo> think*
2418 2013-03-28 22:41:01 <Scrat> some of the latest SSDs run 3 bits per cell
2419 2013-03-28 22:41:14 <BlueMatt> usually they will pick up on a failure and not reuse that sector
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2421 2013-03-28 22:41:43 <toffoo> that's why it's seeming to me there's something glitchy this new DB with v0.8.1 on Mac ...
2422 2013-03-28 22:42:08 <toffoo> another Mac user was reporting something similar when I first reported this issue here last night
2423 2013-03-28 22:42:20 <BlueMatt> does it do the same when you throw away the old blocks and -blockimport directly
2424 2013-03-28 22:42:24 <BlueMatt> (is it -blockimport?)
2425 2013-03-28 22:42:29 <toffoo> the system isn't acting like it's a bad disk, because everything else besides bitcoin-qt is working fine
2426 2013-03-28 22:43:04 <toffoo> imma try a reindex one more time here first,
2427 2013-03-28 22:43:11 <toffoo> then I'll try that
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2431 2013-03-28 22:54:09 <gonffen> damn 228481 is massive
2432 2013-03-28 22:55:12 <sipa> toffoo: we've indeed seen several reports of corrupted databases on OSX
2433 2013-03-28 22:55:30 <sipa> toffoo: though i don't know of any that consistently corrupt
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2456 2013-03-28 23:12:09 <toffoo> now its consistently crashing on startup .. won't even give me the option to re-index anymore
2457 2013-03-28 23:12:15 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
2458 2013-03-28 23:13:13 <sipa> toffoo: you can start with -reindex explicitly
2459 2013-03-28 23:15:36 <gmaxwell> Apparently asicminer is now planning to start their planning of selling hardware. In part because they're realizing that putting all that hardware in one place has extra costs:
2460 2013-03-28 23:15:41 <gmaxwell> "The unconventionally high power density makes our devices hard to be deployed to professional data centers, which also have very high rent charges as their extra downside. So we had and will have to build them of our own. It's a difficult task in a sense that besides the long cycle, unexpected incidents will create a period that we have a lot of devices lying there waiting to generate hashes"
2461 2013-03-28 23:15:47 <gmaxwell> otoh: Our use of ~0.5MW of power in the new place is also approved
2462 2013-03-28 23:15:55 zooko has joined
2463 2013-03-28 23:16:10 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: and security and unspoken SPOF threats/costs
2464 2013-03-28 23:16:22 skytte_dk has joined
2465 2013-03-28 23:16:48 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: maybe. Perhaps some more forceful voices wispered to them and finally got through, I know they sure didn't listen to me.
2466 2013-03-28 23:17:42 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: NICE!
2467 2013-03-28 23:18:54 <warren> gmaxwell: Perhaps they also realized the thing about selling shovels...
2468 2013-03-28 23:19:33 agricocb has joined
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2470 2013-03-28 23:20:11 <gmaxwell> warren: the economics aren't quite the same for them... because they're substantially using borrowed money, I think it actually makes more sense to not realize profits early... instead if they keep them internally they can continue to sell their unsold shares
2471 2013-03-28 23:20:56 <warren> didn't they already return more than 100% to initial share buyers?
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2478 2013-03-28 23:24:34 <gmaxwell> warren: I don't believe so, but it's all spawled across the threads, basically they were paying dividends at an accelerated rate until they were breakeven, but I don't think they're there yet.
2479 2013-03-28 23:24:50 <warren> oh
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2483 2013-03-28 23:26:03 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Nice! Great to see my point about energy and cooling costs scaling non-linearly with centralization validated.
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2487 2013-03-28 23:33:41 <phantomcircuit> i noticed yesterday that the "smart" meter reports from PG&E are kWh vs time
2488 2013-03-28 23:33:48 <phantomcircuit> what in the hell does that even mean
2489 2013-03-28 23:34:09 clav8 has joined
2490 2013-03-28 23:34:15 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: they used the word 'vs'?!
2491 2013-03-28 23:34:57 <phantomcircuit> it's a graph
2492 2013-03-28 23:34:57 <toffoo> gmaxwell warren yes asicminer has paid back all IPO proceeds
2493 2013-03-28 23:35:04 <phantomcircuit> y = kWh
2494 2013-03-28 23:35:06 <phantomcircuit> x = time
2495 2013-03-28 23:35:16 <phantomcircuit> i could understand y= kW
2496 2013-03-28 23:35:19 <phantomcircuit> but kWh?
2497 2013-03-28 23:35:20 <phantomcircuit> wat
2498 2013-03-28 23:35:44 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: kWh is energy not power.. making it vs time is sensible.
2499 2013-03-28 23:35:49 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
2500 2013-03-28 23:35:53 MashRinx has joined
2501 2013-03-28 23:36:03 <gmaxwell> and yea, they're kWh/h if you zoom into the day view.. mich means.. kW. :P
2502 2013-03-28 23:36:13 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, except the graph is a smooth graph which goes up and down
2503 2013-03-28 23:36:32 <phantomcircuit> if it was kWh, time and it just kept going up that would make sense
2504 2013-03-28 23:36:52 <phantomcircuit> maybe it's just a misprint and should say kWh/h
2505 2013-03-28 23:36:58 skytte_dk has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2506 2013-03-28 23:36:59 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Electrical engineers never, ever, abbreviate Watts to Wh. kWh alwys refers to kilo*watt*hours
2507 2013-03-28 23:37:11 <phantomcircuit> (it's definitely kW on the y axis)
2508 2013-03-28 23:37:29 sl1982 has joined
2509 2013-03-28 23:38:40 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: I dunno I thought it was pretty obvious that it was per hour. But you're right— it doesn't say it.
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2514 2013-03-28 23:43:50 <muhoo> hehe, i knew people were goign to get nosebleeds when the price went close to USD$100. correctoin accomplished.
2515 2013-03-28 23:44:07 <midnightmagic> Asicminer appears to have stated they are fine with competing against their customers with their customers' own money; or at least that they don't see it that way.
2516 2013-03-28 23:44:58 <muhoo> apple did that for years
2517 2013-03-28 23:45:11 <midnightmagic> hrm?
2518 2013-03-28 23:45:31 <muhoo> if you were an apple developer or reseller in the 80s or 90s, you knew at any moment apple could come along and wipe you out by competing with you
2519 2013-03-28 23:46:16 space_cadet has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2520 2013-03-28 23:47:15 <midnightmagic> Same with Microsoft. Those stories about them actually doing it were nightmarish.
2521 2013-03-28 23:48:41 <muhoo> hmm, sadly i think i'm not going to bother with this ecommerce bitcoin thing. people don't seem to want to spend btc, only hold it and watch it go up in value.
2522 2013-03-28 23:49:26 <muhoo> also, the competition for blockchain space will bite me. fees will go up and up, and the system won't scale to large volumes of tiny (song download) transactions
2523 2013-03-28 23:49:56 <muhoo> that's if my friends will let me back out of doing it.
2524 2013-03-28 23:50:12 <BenderCoin> muhoo: boohoo
2525 2013-03-28 23:50:16 <Belxjander> muhoo: are you in Japan or New Zealand?
2526 2013-03-28 23:50:27 krasnozer has left ("Leaving")
2527 2013-03-28 23:50:33 <Belxjander> muhoo: I'm wanting to "buy in" and get $1BTC if possible myself
2528 2013-03-28 23:51:02 <muhoo> Belxjander: i'll take the bait, neither
2529 2013-03-28 23:51:11 <Belxjander> damm
2530 2013-03-28 23:51:31 <Belxjander> I live in Japan but I am from New Zealand and have bank accounts in both countries
2531 2013-03-28 23:51:46 <num1> muhoo, re competition for block chain space it's too soon to know if that's actually going to be a problem or not
2532 2013-03-28 23:51:46 <muhoo> oh, i'll continue holding BTC. just not trying to pretend it's somethign people will use for everyday transactions
2533 2013-03-28 23:51:54 <num1> there's plenty of time for the protocol to change before then
2534 2013-03-28 23:51:55 <Belxjander> and no way practical to exchange money between them right now
2535 2013-03-28 23:52:33 <doublec> Belxjander: I'm in NZ
2536 2013-03-28 23:54:16 <muhoo> num1: there's been a lot of discussion here about that. my reading of the archives and tea leaves is that BTC is trying to be like gold, a deflationary store of value, not a currency for daily use in high volume.
2537 2013-03-28 23:54:33 normanrichards has joined
2538 2013-03-28 23:55:13 <Belxjander> doublec: how much BTC/Satoshi can I buy for sending you $100NZD?
2539 2013-03-28 23:55:14 <warren> "currency for daily use in high volume" for gambling, apparently.
2540 2013-03-28 23:55:25 <num1> warren, for now
2541 2013-03-28 23:55:42 <muhoo> it's doing a DAMN good job of being gold too. i wouldn't be surprised to see it hit US$1000 within a year
2542 2013-03-28 23:55:42 <num1> SD is taking advantage of being the only one around, there's plenty of room for just them
2543 2013-03-28 23:56:00 <warren> only one?
2544 2013-03-28 23:56:06 <doublec> Belxjander: you might prefer using the nz exchange: bitnz.com
2545 2013-03-28 23:56:10 <Belxjander> muhoo: well it takes the "3rd party" requirement out of things
2546 2013-03-28 23:56:25 <num1> warren, who else is generating a large transaction volume?
2547 2013-03-28 23:56:28 <doublec> Belxjander: but if you want to trade, pm me
2548 2013-03-28 23:56:35 <Belxjander> doublec: I live in Japan, no way I can get to a NZ bank to make the deposit (bitnz still blocking internet banking?)
2549 2013-03-28 23:56:46 <muhoo> doublec: Belxjander: i assume you guys know about #bitcoin-otc too
2550 2013-03-28 23:57:01 <Belxjander> muhoo: I know about it... tried there several times with no response
2551 2013-03-28 23:57:04 <doublec> muhoo: yep, I'm rated on otc
2552 2013-03-28 23:57:24 <Belxjander> doublec: no rating for me... (first purchase)
2553 2013-03-28 23:57:44 <doublec> 8.5 btc of fees in this block, wow: https://blockchain.info/block-index/369016/000000000000002356521f2e0b8e63c21af95e79e9edca8bd6f55491507a790f
2554 2013-03-28 23:57:52 <skinnkavaj> muhoo: No trades here, its off topic. this channel is for development discussion..
2555 2013-03-28 23:58:00 <skinnkavaj> go to #bitcoin-otc
2556 2013-03-28 23:58:03 <doublec> Belxjander: that's ok, pm if wnted
2557 2013-03-28 23:58:13 <muhoo> doublec: there was a tx  a while ago that had 50BTC of fees
2558 2013-03-28 23:58:19 <doublec> wow
2559 2013-03-28 23:58:30 <muhoo> skinnkavaj: i kno that. i was hinting at those guys to take it there :-)
2560 2013-03-28 23:58:34 <Belxjander> skinnkavaj: we are taking it away from this channel already :)
2561 2013-03-28 23:58:47 Extreme has joined
2562 2013-03-28 23:59:12 Chiyo has joined
2563 2013-03-28 23:59:58 <muhoo> doublec: most likely a broken attempt at doing a raw tx, someone didn't add up their inputs and outputs correctly