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7 2013-03-30 00:08:01 <HM> is there something special about block 155257?
8 2013-03-30 00:08:20 <gmaxwell> it has three 5s in its index.
9 2013-03-30 00:08:21 <sipa> it has 3 5's in the decimal representation of its height
10 2013-03-30 00:08:30 <sipa> dang, gmaxwell beat me to it
11 2013-03-30 00:08:44 <gmaxwell> you specified the base, however. /me waits for the correction from luke
12 2013-03-30 00:08:46 <HM> by bitcoin client has crapped out at that block
13 2013-03-30 00:08:55 <sipa> which version?
14 2013-03-30 00:08:58 <gmaxwell> HM: define "crapped out"
15 2013-03-30 00:09:03 <HM> 0.8.1 binary off sourceforge
16 2013-03-30 00:09:05 <HM> it's just stopped
17 2013-03-30 00:09:10 <gmaxwell> just wait, thats normal
18 2013-03-30 00:09:15 <gmaxwell> it'll continue at the next block
19 2013-03-30 00:09:46 <HM> why would it stop at any particular block for several minutes?
20 2013-03-30 00:09:48 <redeeman> seems like it loads in chunks :)
21 2013-03-30 00:09:57 <sipa> HM: because the network sync code is a piece of crap
22 2013-03-30 00:10:00 <redeeman> also happened to me when i loaded the chain on 0.8.0
23 2013-03-30 00:10:01 <HM> is it just database work?
24 2013-03-30 00:10:02 <gmaxwell> HM: because the peer you are pulling from disconnected you.
25 2013-03-30 00:10:08 <HM> ah
26 2013-03-30 00:10:19 <HM> how rude of them
27 2013-03-30 00:10:21 <gmaxwell> it has nothing to do with the block, it just pauses until the next block if the peer you're pulling from stops responding.
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29 2013-03-30 00:11:40 * HM glares at it
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33 2013-03-30 00:13:46 <HM> there we go
34 2013-03-30 00:13:54 <HM> ty
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87 2013-03-30 01:20:23 <owowo> ;;slap gribble
88 2013-03-30 01:20:25 * gribble slaps gribble with a battered fipple flute
89 2013-03-30 01:20:25 <owowo> ;;bc,mktcap
90 2013-03-30 01:21:30 <TheLordOfTime> owowo, i've already dropped a note to nanotube about the bot not working with ;;ticker and such
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94 2013-03-30 01:24:29 <Luke-Jr> yay, Bitcoin-Qt using over 1 GB RAM :/
95 2013-03-30 01:24:39 <TheLordOfTime> owowo, and lo-and-behold, nanottube wakes up after i say that :P
96 2013-03-30 01:24:45 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: shouldnt you be doing the multisig in here and not #bitcoin?
97 2013-03-30 01:26:40 <helo> multisig is clearly bitcoin usage, rather than development
98 2013-03-30 01:27:37 gribble has quit (Quit: brb ....)
99 2013-03-30 01:27:44 <helo> i'd prefer that the noisy people be silenced, rather than the entire channel :/
100 2013-03-30 01:28:01 <sipa> Luke-Jr: the bitcoind on my VPS is using 275 MiB RES, 63 connections, running for an hour or so
101 2013-03-30 01:28:11 <sipa> Luke-Jr: with several of my and BlueMatt's pullreqs
102 2013-03-30 01:29:31 HiWEB has joined
103 2013-03-30 01:29:36 rdymac has joined
104 2013-03-30 01:30:16 <BlueMatt> sipa: would you merge tiny wrapper code around your secp256k1 thing for bitcoinj?
105 2013-03-30 01:30:45 <sipa> BlueMatt: what would be needed?
106 2013-03-30 01:30:59 <BlueMatt> its 1 cpp 1 h and a few lines in Makefile
107 2013-03-30 01:31:17 <BlueMatt> (not built by default because you need jni headers)
108 2013-03-30 01:31:36 Conflict_ has joined
109 2013-03-30 01:31:42 <sipa> i'm in the process of converting it to C; would that simpify things?
110 2013-03-30 01:31:50 <BlueMatt> wouldnt change, really
111 2013-03-30 01:32:05 Conflict has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
112 2013-03-30 01:32:13 <BlueMatt> I suppose it could remove the namespace secp256k1 line...
113 2013-03-30 01:32:19 <sipa> meh
114 2013-03-30 01:32:50 <sipa> it's fine, i guess
115 2013-03-30 01:32:58 gribble has joined
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117 2013-03-30 01:33:24 <sipa> the API will probably be extended with a few more functions to generate/import/export keys, and sign messages
118 2013-03-30 01:33:27 <sipa> but that's about ti
119 2013-03-30 01:33:32 DBordello has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
120 2013-03-30 01:33:43 <BlueMatt> well, verification is the only really time-limited thing in bitcoinj
121 2013-03-30 01:33:47 DBordello has joined
122 2013-03-30 01:33:51 <BlueMatt> yea, signing isnt fast, but its rare enough...
123 2013-03-30 01:34:03 <sipa> signing as such is very easy
124 2013-03-30 01:34:17 <sipa> the hard part is making it not leak key data via timing
125 2013-03-30 01:34:20 * Scrat shakes fist at gmaxwell
126 2013-03-30 01:34:29 <BlueMatt> sipa: isnt that always the hard part?
127 2013-03-30 01:34:40 <sipa> for verification that doesn't matter :D
128 2013-03-30 01:34:44 <BlueMatt> well, yes
129 2013-03-30 01:34:59 <sipa> verification is mathematically a lot more complex
130 2013-03-30 01:35:34 * BlueMatt punts on timing and just writes it reasonably and makes gcc compile certain function -O0
131 2013-03-30 01:35:34 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/shamirs/blob/master/shamirssecret.c#L68
132 2013-03-30 01:36:37 <sipa> BlueMatt: oh, but it's certainly doable; for most of low-level code i already have constant-time functions
133 2013-03-30 01:37:00 <BlueMatt> yea, when gcc doesnt get smart and optimize out your constant-time functions...
134 2013-03-30 01:37:01 <sipa> anyway, the reason to add signing is to be able to drop OpenSSL-EC entirely
135 2013-03-30 01:37:18 <BlueMatt> yea
136 2013-03-30 01:37:21 <sipa> even if it optimizes away my constant-time functions, they'll still be constant time :)
137 2013-03-30 01:37:33 <sipa> (they're branchless)
138 2013-03-30 01:37:56 <BlueMatt> well, ok, as long as you can write it branchless
139 2013-03-30 01:37:59 <DBordello> Does this transaction look valid to you guys: 52eb8e70428dbcfc3c93089d35919efe96a8d27a402350e6d6e79c352b00384b
140 2013-03-30 01:38:29 <DBordello> It looks reasonable to me, but blockchain.info doesn't like the input
141 2013-03-30 01:38:48 <sipa> how would i know what the transaction is?
142 2013-03-30 01:38:48 HiWEB has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
143 2013-03-30 01:39:05 <DBordello> sipa, I believe that is the txid
144 2013-03-30 01:39:19 <sipa> a txid is not a transaction
145 2013-03-30 01:39:20 <CodeShark> any 256-bit number is a "reasonable" txid
146 2013-03-30 01:39:40 <sipa> and the txid surely looks fine, but i have no way of saying anything useful about the transaction without seeing it
147 2013-03-30 01:39:53 <DBordello> well, has your client seen it?
148 2013-03-30 01:40:13 <CodeShark> yes
149 2013-03-30 01:40:20 o2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
150 2013-03-30 01:40:32 <sipa> oh, apparently it ha
151 2013-03-30 01:40:33 <sipa> s
152 2013-03-30 01:40:37 <DBordello> Does it think it is valid?
153 2013-03-30 01:41:14 <sipa> must be
154 2013-03-30 01:41:27 o2 has joined
155 2013-03-30 01:41:36 <CodeShark> unconfirmed, but satisfies the protocol rules
156 2013-03-30 01:41:54 <DBordello> I wonder why the network hates it
157 2013-03-30 01:42:17 <CodeShark> it has a long chain of transactions dependent on it
158 2013-03-30 01:42:17 <DBordello> Or coincidence
159 2013-03-30 01:42:46 <DBordello> CodeShark, I had a hunch that was the case, but neither blockexplorer or blockchain wanted to help me visualize it
160 2013-03-30 01:42:50 <BlueMatt> sipa: ahh, wait
161 2013-03-30 01:42:51 <CodeShark> is it a deliberate double-spend attempt?
162 2013-03-30 01:43:01 <BlueMatt> sipa: (dont merge secp256k1 thinggy)
163 2013-03-30 01:43:08 <DBordello> CodeShark, I hope not. If so, we are not falling for it
164 2013-03-30 01:44:22 <BlueMatt> sipa: ok, sorry
165 2013-03-30 01:44:27 <CodeShark> DBordello: I traced it back to f058c655a42af9bceb0e4a09e096cc406c5e7fab2b560d4cd4303cf020005b93
166 2013-03-30 01:44:28 deadweasel has joined
167 2013-03-30 01:44:35 <CodeShark> the first confirmed transaction in the chain
168 2013-03-30 01:44:48 <DBordello> CodeShark, great, how many back is that?
169 2013-03-30 01:44:56 <CodeShark> quite a few - didn't count
170 2013-03-30 01:45:03 <DBordello> Odd.
171 2013-03-30 01:45:12 <DBordello> It is supposidly a legit customer trying to pay us
172 2013-03-30 01:45:23 <CodeShark> don't trust this guy :)
173 2013-03-30 01:45:39 <CodeShark> don't accept it until this entire chain confirms
174 2013-03-30 01:45:42 <DBordello> CodeShark, Sounds good. However, he also appears too stupid to have attempted this.
175 2013-03-30 01:45:51 <CodeShark> do you know what wallet he's using?
176 2013-03-30 01:45:57 <DBordello> CodeShark, waiting for 6 confirms on the last transaction
177 2013-03-30 01:46:01 <DBordello> no, I asked him
178 2013-03-30 01:46:44 <rdponticelli> Maybe somebody else's trying to screw him...
179 2013-03-30 01:47:19 <DBordello> Maybe he is using some stupid online mixer
180 2013-03-30 01:47:28 <CodeShark> 43 transactions in the chain up until yours, DBordello
181 2013-03-30 01:47:35 <CodeShark> unconfirmed
182 2013-03-30 01:47:38 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
183 2013-03-30 01:47:42 <CodeShark> and then there are more after yours
184 2013-03-30 01:47:46 <DBordello> coderrr, wow
185 2013-03-30 01:48:00 <DBordello> Interesting that we were placed in the middle of the chain
186 2013-03-30 01:48:06 <DBordello> CodeShark, how did you track that down?
187 2013-03-30 01:48:13 <rdponticelli> Well, if he's using a mixer, may be an intended behavior....
188 2013-03-30 01:48:16 <CodeShark> I have a block chain DB
189 2013-03-30 01:48:31 <CodeShark> blockchain + mempool DB
190 2013-03-30 01:48:48 <CodeShark> this isn't a mixer
191 2013-03-30 01:48:57 <CodeShark> mixer-type behavior is very different - you generally have multiple inputs
192 2013-03-30 01:49:05 <DBordello> Good poitn
193 2013-03-30 01:49:10 <CodeShark> this chain is all single input, two output transactions
194 2013-03-30 01:49:32 <rdponticelli> Idiotic mixer? :P
195 2013-03-30 01:49:46 <CodeShark> I take it the amount for the item this customer bought was 1.3 btc, DBordello?
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199 2013-03-30 01:51:13 <DBordello> CodeShark, yup
200 2013-03-30 01:51:39 <CodeShark> 55 more transactions after yours in the chain. only the last transaction has multiple inputs
201 2013-03-30 01:51:42 <CodeShark> lol
202 2013-03-30 01:51:57 <DBordello> Perhaps it was a doublespend attempt
203 2013-03-30 01:52:14 * DBordello shrugs
204 2013-03-30 01:53:28 sl1982 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
205 2013-03-30 01:53:44 <CodeShark> several of the early chain transactions have since confirmed
206 2013-03-30 01:54:07 <CodeShark> https://blockchain.info/tx/e75fe674cd88c7739d7a4f4a31bdb25f606432486c1c5d861bb588122a7f2d25
207 2013-03-30 01:54:20 <CodeShark> the earliest tx that has confirmed in the chain. but blockchain.info doesn't seem to know about the rest of the chain
208 2013-03-30 01:54:57 <CodeShark> my nodes show the second output as spent
209 2013-03-30 01:55:06 rdymac has joined
210 2013-03-30 01:56:18 <DBordello> So, 43 more, lets figure at most 1 per block
211 2013-03-30 01:56:23 <DBordello> This is like a 10 hour problem
212 2013-03-30 01:57:14 bayamos has left ()
213 2013-03-30 01:57:16 <CodeShark> it would be totally possible to doublespend it at this poin
214 2013-03-30 01:57:19 <CodeShark> *point
215 2013-03-30 01:57:30 <CodeShark> especially if nodes like blockchain.info don't know about the rest of the chain
216 2013-03-30 01:58:23 <DBordello> interesting
217 2013-03-30 01:58:48 <CodeShark> just one transaction with a fee that spends that second output and your 1.3 btc could be toast
218 2013-03-30 02:00:50 <DBordello> Thanks, if it is easy for you, I might come back to you to see if it got doublespent
219 2013-03-30 02:00:52 <DBordello> or confirmed
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222 2013-03-30 02:04:03 <rikur> so #bitcoin is +m but #bitcoin-dev is not. Makes a whole lot of sense.
223 2013-03-30 02:05:31 <sipa> must be that it's not needed here :)
224 2013-03-30 02:05:42 <rikur> it's not needed on #bitcoin either
225 2013-03-30 02:06:03 nealmcb has quit (Quit: leaving)
226 2013-03-30 02:06:27 <rikur> what a stupid power grab and censorship. New people to bitcoin must feel very welcome for not being able to even say hi.
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232 2013-03-30 02:08:44 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: O.o
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235 2013-03-30 02:09:48 <coingenuity> rikur: sometimes the main channel gets a bit unruly, there are over 1k users there now
236 2013-03-30 02:09:59 <coingenuity> +m is always temporary
237 2013-03-30 02:10:09 <coingenuity> don't stress so much about it :)
238 2013-03-30 02:10:21 <CodeShark> you powergrabber, coingenuity :p
239 2013-03-30 02:10:30 <rikur> I am worried about it
240 2013-03-30 02:10:33 <coingenuity> CodeShark: ick, power
241 2013-03-30 02:10:37 <CodeShark> lol
242 2013-03-30 02:10:38 <coingenuity> who wants that
243 2013-03-30 02:10:44 <coingenuity> it comes with so much responsibility...
244 2013-03-30 02:10:48 <gmaxwell> I thought it would be nice to go and talk about bitcoin for once, instead of being flooded out by more north korea stuff.
245 2013-03-30 02:11:14 <gmaxwell> We were actually _unable_ to talk about bitcoin, to the point where d-dimer suggested we go to another channel.
246 2013-03-30 02:11:17 <gmaxwell> and I think thats nuts
247 2013-03-30 02:11:17 <BlueMatt> but north korea is gonna nuke the us and then the world would end...better buy bitcoins
248 2013-03-30 02:11:23 <rikur> You probably thought wrong, unless you auto +v everyone who is authed in the channels and help new people to get started too
249 2013-03-30 02:11:26 iwilcox_ is now known as iwilcox
250 2013-03-30 02:11:33 <rikur> gmaxwell: this is more nuts
251 2013-03-30 02:11:54 <kermit_> lol @Bluematt
252 2013-03-30 02:12:01 <rikur> just because you and d-miner wanted to chat in a more peaceful environment, you blocked out 1k people
253 2013-03-30 02:12:02 <gmaxwell> I'll be removing the +m in probably 10 minutes or so when we complete doing this multisign tutorial.
254 2013-03-30 02:12:31 <rikur> gmaxwell: I don't think that you should be able to just shut the channel because you're walking someone through a tutorial
255 2013-03-30 02:13:03 <rikur> #bitcoin-tutorials?
256 2013-03-30 02:13:19 <digitalmagus> Maybe next time just create bot autokick & 2 min ban on the word "war" or whatever non-bitcoin arguements are going on
257 2013-03-30 02:13:39 <BlueMatt> if you're calm and go do something else for 10 minutes, it will all go away
258 2013-03-30 02:13:50 <rikur> the very foundation of bitcoin is counter censorhip. This is just so wrong.
259 2013-03-30 02:13:53 <kermit_> w*r
260 2013-03-30 02:14:51 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: +q people who won't shut up?
261 2013-03-30 02:15:44 <jrmithdobbs> rikur: you missed #freenode by a few miles, need some cheese?
262 2013-03-30 02:15:48 Z0rZ0rZ0r has quit (Quit: Wheeeee)
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264 2013-03-30 02:15:56 <coingenuity> 10 minutes of on-topic discussion is acceptable when providing people relevant content that will be useful in people's google searches, or incorporated into something else...
265 2013-03-30 02:16:12 <rikur> bs
266 2013-03-30 02:16:18 <jrmithdobbs> rikur: i'm calling you a whiney idiot, just in case you're not smart enough to catch that
267 2013-03-30 02:16:21 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
268 2013-03-30 02:16:21 o2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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270 2013-03-30 02:17:01 <SomeoneWeird> jrmithdobbs, oi
271 2013-03-30 02:17:01 <rikur> jrmithdobbs: defending freedom of speech and foundations of bitcoin make me stupid?
272 2013-03-30 02:17:39 o2 has joined
273 2013-03-30 02:17:48 <jrmithdobbs> if you think your speech is free on freenode, yes, you are an idiot
274 2013-03-30 02:17:57 <gmaxwell> One of the most important freedom's of speech is the freedom create spaces that exclude some speech.
275 2013-03-30 02:24:51 Ogig has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
276 2013-03-30 02:25:17 <rikur> gmaxwell: hence #bitcoin-tutorials
277 2013-03-30 02:25:48 <rikur> you just don't silence hundreds of people on a whim
278 2013-03-30 02:25:51 <jrmithdobbs> rikur: why don't you just start #bitcoin-unmoderated and gtfo
279 2013-03-30 02:26:05 <jrmithdobbs> noone cares
280 2013-03-30 02:26:17 <rikur> jrmithdobbs: If you value bitcoins you should
281 2013-03-30 02:26:18 <jrmithdobbs> noone *important cares
282 2013-03-30 02:26:31 <jrmithdobbs> (namely, only you seem to care, and you are not important)
283 2013-03-30 02:26:34 <rikur> so now it's only about the important people?
284 2013-03-30 02:26:45 <jrmithdobbs> yes
285 2013-03-30 02:26:52 <jrmithdobbs> #bitcoin-cabal 4 lyfe
286 2013-03-30 02:27:02 JZavala has joined
287 2013-03-30 02:27:16 <rikur> I really hope that more people vouching for bitcoin disagree with out. You're talking about centralization.
288 2013-03-30 02:27:21 <rikur> but let's move this to #bitcoin
289 2013-03-30 02:27:42 <jrmithdobbs> centralization of the centralized chat network? i don't see how freenode could be more centralized
290 2013-03-30 02:27:50 <jrmithdobbs> what are you going on about.
291 2013-03-30 02:27:52 <jrmithdobbs> tard
292 2013-03-30 02:28:30 <digitalmagus> rikur, things aren't always so black and white. Philosophically, I agree with you; however, in reality it just isn't practical to allow the channel to be 'spammed' with ranting off topic discussions. Also, you should know that gmaxwell helps all kinds of people all day long in regard to bitcoin without even asking for a satoshi.
293 2013-03-30 02:29:24 <jrmithdobbs> because none of those cheap bastards would give him any if he did ask ;p
294 2013-03-30 02:31:53 <bergle> + .005 btc tip gmaxwell
295 2013-03-30 02:32:11 stevenc has joined
296 2013-03-30 02:32:16 <bergle> oh wrong network :)
297 2013-03-30 02:32:55 <bergle> i agree with digitalmagus on that as well.
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307 2013-03-30 02:54:39 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: apparently Erik has run from the US
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310 2013-03-30 02:58:43 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: wild. Well, thats one outcome.
311 2013-03-30 02:58:52 <sipa> of what?
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313 2013-03-30 02:59:14 <Luke-Jr> sipa: running an online gambling site out of New York
314 2013-03-30 02:59:27 <sipa> righr
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316 2013-03-30 02:59:34 <BlueMatt> hah, well done
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357 2013-03-30 03:35:52 TheButterZone has joined
358 2013-03-30 03:36:26 <TheButterZone> http://bitcoin.org/en/choose-your-wallet - there's a . under electrum
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361 2013-03-30 03:37:35 <TheButterZone> also, should brainwallet.org be added to the array
362 2013-03-30 03:37:45 <TheButterZone> actual or github source
363 2013-03-30 03:39:12 <Luke-Jr> TheButterZone: no, because brainwallet.org is the height of insecurity
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377 2013-03-30 03:55:30 <Luke-Jr> sigh
378 2013-03-30 03:55:40 <Luke-Jr> 10762 locks sometimes passes reorg test, sometimes fails it
379 2013-03-30 03:56:37 SvenDiagram has joined
380 2013-03-30 03:57:33 <Luke-Jr> yet it *should* need 536448 ? :/
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383 2013-03-30 04:01:57 * Luke-Jr is tempted to just put 537000 and call it done
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386 2013-03-30 04:06:01 * BlueMatt hopes you write test-cases so I dont have to
387 2013-03-30 04:07:16 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: the test isn't working out for some reason, and uses 3 GB for the temp blkindex.dat
388 2013-03-30 04:07:35 <Luke-Jr> (isn't working out = isn't failing when it's supposed to)
389 2013-03-30 04:08:02 * BlueMatt hopes you solve the issue so I dont have to do it, or...more likely so that we have a test at all
390 2013-03-30 04:08:18 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: any suggestions? I've been on this for 2 weeks now
391 2013-03-30 04:08:51 * BlueMatt thinks you've got this (and doesnt know much about the problem to help, sorry)
392 2013-03-30 04:09:20 <BlueMatt> still, a test that catches bugs sometimes is better than none at all
393 2013-03-30 04:09:23 <Luke-Jr> I'm completely out of ideas..
394 2013-03-30 04:09:39 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: well, a 3 GB test isn't very friendly
395 2013-03-30 04:09:52 monst has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
396 2013-03-30 04:10:01 <Luke-Jr> plus, it requires hacks to skip proof-of-work checks etc
397 2013-03-30 04:10:04 <Luke-Jr> http://codepad.org/DhE24JcJ
398 2013-03-30 04:10:07 <BlueMatt> well, I was talking about for jenkins/pull-tester
399 2013-03-30 04:10:10 <BlueMatt> thats definately not something that will end up in unit-tests
400 2013-03-30 04:10:19 <BlueMatt> so does blocktester
401 2013-03-30 04:11:37 <Luke-Jr> I suppose you could hard-code the page size and find nonces for it all
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406 2013-03-30 04:15:29 <digitalmagus> what type of file is: blk0001.dat ? Is it possible to convert it to raw text?
407 2013-03-30 04:15:35 <digitalmagus> if so, how?
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410 2013-03-30 04:20:35 <copumpkin> I think that's just raw block data as it comes in, isn't it? and then there's a separate index telling you which blocks are where in that file
411 2013-03-30 04:20:44 <BlueMatt> yes
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413 2013-03-30 04:22:27 <digitalmagus> copumpkin: yes, it's the block-chain, but I imagine raw clear-text data gets condensed into it somehow and the .dat file is basically a binary file as far as I can figure out. My question is, is there a way to convert it to a .txt for analysis ? I know there's APIs to extract data, but I'd like to see the raw txt format.
414 2013-03-30 04:23:11 <copumpkin> I'd imagine you can probably run a jsonifier over it if you wanted to decode the binary blocks (it's not a hard format to decode last I remember)
415 2013-03-30 04:23:22 <copumpkin> but I think it contains blocks that aren't necessarily in the final chain
416 2013-03-30 04:23:27 <copumpkin> not sure if that affects you
417 2013-03-30 04:24:19 <copumpkin> and by final chain, I mean the current consensus on what that is
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432 2013-03-30 04:41:18 <jgarzik> digitalmagus: What do you mean by "raw text"?
433 2013-03-30 04:41:35 <jgarzik> digitalmagus: blk0001.dat etc. are in "wire format", the native binary format of bitcoin
434 2013-03-30 04:41:47 <jgarzik> You cannot get much more raw than that :)
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447 2013-03-30 04:54:08 <digitalmagus> @jgarzik: is "wire format" a propriatary format to bitcoin? I guess I can google that, maybe.
448 2013-03-30 04:54:17 <jgarzik> digitalmagus: Yes
449 2013-03-30 04:54:34 <digitalmagus> hmmm
450 2013-03-30 04:55:05 <BlueMatt> "proprietary" we have no proprietary things, its all open source
451 2013-03-30 04:55:11 <digitalmagus> so is the only way to access it, the API's? or is there a way to convert it to text format? FOr instance, if I: cat blk0001.dat I get a bunch of gobble-gook that's unreadable.
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453 2013-03-30 04:55:21 <copumpkin> it's described on the wiki
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456 2013-03-30 04:55:24 <digitalmagus> Bluematt: ok, but it wasn't a preexisting standard
457 2013-03-30 04:55:29 <BlueMatt> you can write your own parser, but yes
458 2013-03-30 04:55:31 <copumpkin> I implemented it in no time in haskell
459 2013-03-30 04:55:36 <copumpkin> >_>
460 2013-03-30 04:55:37 <BlueMatt> or use bitcoinj or one of the other million and one libraries
461 2013-03-30 04:55:49 <digitalmagus> copumpkin: Ok I will take a look at wiki
462 2013-03-30 04:56:02 sgornick has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
463 2013-03-30 04:56:03 <digitalmagus> <--- noob :)
464 2013-03-30 04:56:13 <digitalmagus> I appreciate your patience, thanks for the leads guys.
465 2013-03-30 04:56:29 fishfishclone has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
466 2013-03-30 04:57:01 <muhoo> there's a python lib, java lib, several C/C++ libs, i guess haskell now too.
467 2013-03-30 04:57:23 <muhoo> copumpkin: is there a link to that? i'm curious.
468 2013-03-30 04:57:50 <digitalmagus> but nothing that can convert it to txt. I guess I'm confused as to how somebody can write an API in whatever language to extract data from a file that's completely unreadable to the human eye.
469 2013-03-30 04:57:54 <muhoo> wow dwolla is creepy. asked me all kinds of personal info that indicates they ran a TRW on me
470 2013-03-30 04:58:35 <copumpkin> muhoo: it's on one of my other computers after I moved to this one, I'd have to dig it up. Not particularly exciting, anyway :) I used cereal and enumerators at the time
471 2013-03-30 05:01:46 <BlueMatt> there are multiple java libs many pythong libs and at least one in php
472 2013-03-30 05:01:52 <BlueMatt> s/ng/n/
473 2013-03-30 05:01:52 <muhoo> no big deal. the stuff i've seen in python uses pack/unpack and \escape chars
474 2013-03-30 05:02:31 <muhoo> BlueMatt: did i miss a comprehensive list of them on the wiki?
475 2013-03-30 05:02:53 <BlueMatt> I dunno, I just know Ive seen atleast like 5
476 2013-03-30 05:03:03 <BlueMatt> and I know of 2 java libs, though there are probably more
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478 2013-03-30 05:03:51 <muhoo> if there's a page somewhere, i can start dumping those in
479 2013-03-30 05:04:30 <BlueMatt> nfc
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487 2013-03-30 05:14:10 <zaroth> hey, I'd like to do some tests on test-net -- I've been CPU mining at 8Mhash/sec for the last 5 hours, and still don't have any coins. Difficulty is 11, which should give me a block every hour and a half. I guess the other problem is I'll still have to wait 100 blocks for the coinbase to mature. OK, long story short, can someone send some test-net coin to mxtCsvXpAyAHnb5r3HWt5ZrhKH9eQPgSPP please?
488 2013-03-30 05:15:06 <gmaxwell> zaroth: I'll gladly send you some, though you should check your transaction list to make sure you don't have immature ones.
489 2013-03-30 05:15:11 <muhoo> zaroth: http://testnet.mojocoin.com/ ?
490 2013-03-30 05:15:26 <muhoo> also https://github.com/ciphermonk/Mojocoin-Faucet and http://tpfaucet.appspot.com/, i have in my notes
491 2013-03-30 05:15:30 <gmaxwell> oh there you go
492 2013-03-30 05:15:37 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
493 2013-03-30 05:15:44 <zaroth> jeremy@ubuntu-1:~/.bitcoin$ bitcoind listtransactions returns [ ]
494 2013-03-30 05:15:47 <zaroth> thanks
495 2013-03-30 05:16:12 <muhoo> yeah man, i'm rich in testnet coins :-/
496 2013-03-30 05:16:20 <zaroth> lol
497 2013-03-30 05:16:53 AtashiCon has joined
498 2013-03-30 05:16:55 <zaroth> introducing the latest new alt-currency with a Bitcoin pedigree... TEST-NE...ererrr wait a minute :-)
499 2013-03-30 05:17:06 <muhoo> i think that's called litecoin
500 2013-03-30 05:17:07 * muhoo ducks
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502 2013-03-30 05:17:38 <BlueMatt> for a brief period before testnet was reset the first time, testnet coins had usd value
503 2013-03-30 05:17:57 <zaroth> not too many articles talking about the $1b litecoin market cap out there...
504 2013-03-30 05:18:27 <muhoo> zaroth: oh, pop in to #bitcoin if you want to see a shitstorm of discussion about that
505 2013-03-30 05:19:54 <zaroth> I was using this (http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/) to calculate how long I should have to wait for mining at Difficulty=11... I popped in $1=1BTC as the conversion just to fill the form, and it told me I'd break even on my $1300 "mining rig" in 2 days -- that's at 8Mhash/sec. Oh to have been doing this in 2009....
506 2013-03-30 05:20:27 <gmaxwell> zaroth: you certantly wouldn't have been getting 8mh/s in 2009.
507 2013-03-30 05:20:43 <gmaxwell> the original bitcoin software on 2009 contemporary hardware got like 50kh/s.
508 2013-03-30 05:20:54 <zaroth> that's also true
509 2013-03-30 05:21:14 <gmaxwell> (not that it wasn't way easier then even soâ)
510 2013-03-30 05:21:42 Prattler has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
511 2013-03-30 05:22:41 <zaroth> Running it on an 8-core E5520. That's Q1 2009. But I bet the software is orders of magnitude faster than it was, even on the same hardware. My office is getting way to hot for test-net coins!
512 2013-03-30 05:24:47 <zaroth> I have 8 of those servers shipping to a data center next week. CPU mining on all of them would still only net about $10 / month, even at $90/BTC. F'ing ASICs :-)
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514 2013-03-30 05:25:40 <warren> Hindsight is so obvious.
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525 2013-03-30 05:50:34 <MC1984> anyone know why the new bitcoin.org has demoted the visibility of the satoshi client so much?
526 2013-03-30 05:50:53 <MC1984> the only full client there is no less
527 2013-03-30 05:52:16 <warren> MC1984: my guess is fear that the huge first startup time would scare users away
528 2013-03-30 05:52:47 <BlueMatt> because the average user really doesnt need a full client
529 2013-03-30 05:52:56 <MC1984> a valid concern, but with no one even trying to start full nodes anymore the network dies any way
530 2013-03-30 05:52:58 <BlueMatt> so there is no reason to encourage users to get a full client
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532 2013-03-30 05:53:18 <BlueMatt> that and the old site was /only/ about the original client
533 2013-03-30 05:53:24 <BlueMatt> which was pretty poor
534 2013-03-30 05:53:26 <warren> are decentralized miner nodes alone enough to keep the network going?
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536 2013-03-30 05:53:28 <MC1984> no reason? do you really beleive that?
537 2013-03-30 05:53:51 <BlueMatt> for an average user, there is no reason to use a full node
538 2013-03-30 05:53:58 <MC1984> people have terabytes and quad cores lying around doing nothing
539 2013-03-30 05:54:11 <MC1984> i disagree with that
540 2013-03-30 05:54:25 <BlueMatt> great, but if it cant even accept incoming connections who cares
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542 2013-03-30 05:56:13 <MC1984> thats something that technology work can fix
543 2013-03-30 05:56:17 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: if someone doesn't run a full node then they're trusting other people. I mean, thats fine and all when it works. But to be honest paypal is much more trustworthy than most of the bitcoin ecosystemâ if we don't fully embrace what makes bitcoin distinctive, along with making it as friendly as possible, then it won't have value for people compared to more widely accepted alternatives.
544 2013-03-30 05:56:23 <MC1984> liket he udp transpot stuff ive read about on the mailing list
545 2013-03-30 05:56:47 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: so spv nodes are broken?
546 2013-03-30 05:57:32 nus-- has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
547 2013-03-30 05:57:33 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: They're certantly a weaker model, especially at the moment when you have huge hashpower consolidations in oddball hands.
548 2013-03-30 05:57:35 <BlueMatt> the only trust there Im aware of is the bloom withholding attack
549 2013-03-30 05:57:44 <MC1984> the logical conclusion to this idea that people dont need to run validators is oh fuck it lets run a hundred nodes on EC2 and call it a day
550 2013-03-30 05:57:57 <BlueMatt> MC1984: no one said that
551 2013-03-30 05:58:07 <MC1984> its where its going
552 2013-03-30 05:58:21 <BlueMatt> right now, there is little reason for me to tell my grandma to install bitcoin-qt over other spv clients (except that there arent many good spv clients on the desktop :( )
553 2013-03-30 05:58:45 <BlueMatt> if we start to have issues because we dont have enough fully-verifying nodes then we can push full verifying nodes more
554 2013-03-30 05:59:09 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I can make multibit display a zillion btc confirmed payment to you for the cost of owning up your network connection and a 25 BTC block. Now, if you're never doing transactions of large value than thats probably an okay tradeoff, though as you note: you run into the cruddyness of the available software.
555 2013-03-30 05:59:12 <MC1984> it should be being done anyway
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557 2013-03-30 05:59:48 <MC1984> if grandma doesnt care about the secuity properties of bitcoin then she should just stick to paypal, becuase that is even easier by a wide margin
558 2013-03-30 05:59:55 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: you mean issues like 08:36 < TD> it's taking forever to get 4 peers connected when selecting from the dns seeds
559 2013-03-30 06:00:12 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: that was a temporary problem that was my fault (you mean like 2 days ago?)
560 2013-03-30 06:00:27 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: 1 confirmation shouldnt ever be shown as "confirmed", but ok, re: hash power point taken
561 2013-03-30 06:00:42 <BlueMatt> give it a year for asics to disseminate more and we should be ok
562 2013-03-30 06:00:55 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: in any case, point beingâ what we should likely be doing providing a consistent expirence SPV or not.. and then setting it up so that everyone who can cheaply and painlessly run a full node does.
563 2013-03-30 06:01:03 <jgarzik> s/disseminate/concentrate/
564 2013-03-30 06:01:05 keystroke has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
565 2013-03-30 06:01:07 <MC1984> ^
566 2013-03-30 06:01:29 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: multibit does. so does electrum. I would bet android wallet shows one confirmation as confirmed too.
567 2013-03-30 06:01:30 <jgarzik> network power will rest in... "2.5 hands"? ASICMINER, BFL and to a lesser extent Avalon
568 2013-03-30 06:01:35 <MC1984> satoshi should do the seamless SPV > full validator thing asap imo
569 2013-03-30 06:01:56 <MC1984> to remove the main good reason for demoting it in favour of other solutions
570 2013-03-30 06:01:59 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yes, Id like to have multibit have a gtk-gnutella-style upgrade option
571 2013-03-30 06:02:04 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: we'll see
572 2013-03-30 06:02:18 <BlueMatt> hopefully they stick to selling shovels
573 2013-03-30 06:02:28 <gmaxwell> MC1984: or to be more distinct about it: If grandma doesn't care about the security properties of bitcoin she _will_ stick to paypal. Becuse, excluding bitcoin's special properties paypal is pretty much unconditionally superior.
574 2013-03-30 06:02:40 <gmaxwell> (well okay, we have a better reputation than paypal. :P )
575 2013-03-30 06:02:47 <MC1984> exactly
576 2013-03-30 06:02:48 Lolcust has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
577 2013-03-30 06:02:49 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ofc, but holding the full chain will just get more and more expensive, startup time kinda sucks for "hey what is this bitcoin thing, I wanna check it out"
578 2013-03-30 06:02:54 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: honestly the endgame is PayPal offers bitcoin as a currency choice
579 2013-03-30 06:02:57 lmacken has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
580 2013-03-30 06:03:03 <jgarzik> a layer above
581 2013-03-30 06:03:10 <warren> jgarzik: every day we see avalon owners joining #p2pool, fully believing that distributed mining is best, but failing because p2pool needs to be fixed to handle it.
582 2013-03-30 06:03:20 Lolcust has joined
583 2013-03-30 06:03:20 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Well I agree, and in that caseâ then sure, you lose bitcoin's security for those transactions, but at least it's all clear to everyone.
584 2013-03-30 06:03:24 <MC1984> bitcoin would have to have a LOT of leverage for that to happen
585 2013-03-30 06:03:33 <jgarzik> warren: including me. I tried p2pool on the first day
586 2013-03-30 06:03:35 <BlueMatt> warren: I was under the impression p2pool had a branch for avalon that was coming along
587 2013-03-30 06:03:40 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: and computers will get faster too. It's far from clear that it will get more and more expensive relative to common computers.
588 2013-03-30 06:04:01 <warren> BlueMatt: it exists, it appears forrestv doesn't have an avalon and time to make it work
589 2013-03-30 06:04:03 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: PayPal is just another off-chain transaction service :)
590 2013-03-30 06:04:11 <jgarzik> s/is/will be/
591 2013-03-30 06:04:28 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yep.
592 2013-03-30 06:04:28 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: not sure there, but ok
593 2013-03-30 06:04:55 knotwork has joined
594 2013-03-30 06:04:56 nus-- has joined
595 2013-03-30 06:06:25 <warren> jgarzik: If everyone is truly concerned about mining decentralization, then a lot more effort needs to go into p2pool-like designs. Even before avalon came along we've seen the current implementation has scaling limitations.
596 2013-03-30 06:06:29 Conflict_ is now known as Conflict
597 2013-03-30 06:07:27 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: well, if it's completely untrue, and the cost doesn't track technology, then I think we'll ultimately have a failed expirement here in terms of creating something decentralized. I suspect and hope that it'll be more or less true at some time or others.
598 2013-03-30 06:07:44 <warren> BlueMatt: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=18313.msg1699378#msg1699378 here's some of the current avalon + p2pool problems
599 2013-03-30 06:08:32 nus- has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
600 2013-03-30 06:09:41 <bernard75> can i invite gribble to my channel?
601 2013-03-30 06:09:55 <bernard75> sorry if off topic
602 2013-03-30 06:10:24 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: avalon downtime right now costs about 32 cents per minute. And there is no avalon simulator that has the same interaction problems... soooo.
603 2013-03-30 06:10:25 <MC1984> if decentalisatoin fails and bitcoin gets borged into the estabishment
604 2013-03-30 06:10:34 <MC1984> take what we learned and try again
605 2013-03-30 06:10:46 <MC1984> its still a successful experiment
606 2013-03-30 06:10:50 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: also, I think forrestv is off working on other stuff. Esp considering that he didn't respond to a PM where I asked if he wanted an avalon.
607 2013-03-30 06:11:14 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: as the world moves more and more off desktops/workstations except for those who need them, those who will be able to run a full node may go down (at least for the foreseeable future, what happens in the limit I dont even want to speculate on)
608 2013-03-30 06:11:50 <OneMiner> Is there some way a regular Joe could help with testing new software? I'm imagining something like a prototype node that could be left running to assist with finding bugs. Got this idea from an obnoxious thread on the forum.
609 2013-03-30 06:11:57 <BlueMatt> warren: ok, well I know Ive seen an avalon branch mentioned, maybe it still doesnt work, but someone is atleast thinking about it, even if they dont have time to make it really work
610 2013-03-30 06:12:09 <gmaxwell> MC1984: an observation I made recently is that all our unbacked "fiat" monies today all started as asset backed (or are tracable to asset backing). Maybe someday there will be many kinds of centralized cryptocurrency which are all tracable to Bitcoin. I think that would be sad, but maybe thats just how it works.
611 2013-03-30 06:12:17 <jgarzik> would be straightforward to rewrite p2pool in C/C++ ;p
612 2013-03-30 06:12:51 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ok, I stand corrected
613 2013-03-30 06:12:52 <warren> BlueMatt: forrestv mentioned that he needs to implement a larger nonce and hardfork the p2pool sharechain soon, but that hasn't been written yet, and apparently that isn't the only bug that currently needs fixing.
614 2013-03-30 06:12:56 <BlueMatt> anyway, I hope someone eventually fixes it
615 2013-03-30 06:13:32 <warren> Admittedly I don't know exactly what that means yet. I've been trying to tear myself away from bitcoin to finish this damn paper.
616 2013-03-30 06:13:50 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: it's somewhat hard to "fix" part of the issue is that the avalons have rather insane latency. It basically takes 1.5 seconds to get work back from them.
617 2013-03-30 06:14:01 <gmaxwell> (e.g. the same problem the BFL singles had with p2pool)
618 2013-03-30 06:14:16 <BlueMatt> yuck
619 2013-03-30 06:14:36 <MC1984> if the future is thin clients and "trusted computing" then bitcoin is the least of the worries
620 2013-03-30 06:15:05 <gmaxwell> MC1984: ::sigh:: that future also undermines decentralized bitcoin too.
621 2013-03-30 06:15:12 <MC1984> given the ridiculous success o the ipad i think w might be fucked
622 2013-03-30 06:15:17 <warren> gmaxwell: can cgminer's load balancer be altered to hash p2pool for the first 4.5 seconds, then <other pool> until the next p2pool new work?
623 2013-03-30 06:15:23 <warren> (pretty bad solution ... but....)
624 2013-03-30 06:15:59 <gmaxwell> warren: uhhh. this isn't how blockchain consensus works.
625 2013-03-30 06:16:11 <gmaxwell> warren: there isn't a new result every x seconds like a clock. :P
626 2013-03-30 06:16:37 <warren> yeah, it would still miss some p2pool restarts, but fewer of them?
627 2013-03-30 06:16:51 <gmaxwell> no, wouldn't be an improvement at all.
628 2013-03-30 06:17:04 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: theoretically (and I dont know how p2pool works) but if you set diff high for the avalon, it would be high enough to kill other sharechains that it missed working on in its latency issues, when there is only one avalon it would cause issues for others, but when they are common you would get the same dead share rate for everyone because the avalons create it
629 2013-03-30 06:17:07 <warren> ok, I don't understand something here. I'll learn it later.
630 2013-03-30 06:17:16 <BlueMatt> maybe its late and Im misthinking though
631 2013-03-30 06:17:34 <MC1984> gmaxwell if that is the future then the only conclusion i can come to is that the people dont deserve things like bitcoin and freedom from central monetary planning, and universal balance is restored
632 2013-03-30 06:17:36 <jgarzik> What's p2pool's share interval target? 10 seconds? Always seemed too quick, to me.
633 2013-03-30 06:17:43 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yes, if most of the hashrate on p2pool was avalons it wouldn't be a big deal.
634 2013-03-30 06:18:06 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: same
635 2013-03-30 06:18:20 <warren> p2pool adjusts the share difficulty dynamically to have roughly 8640 shares over a 24 hour period.
636 2013-03-30 06:18:47 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: 10 secondsâ which is fine for GPUs... and if you make it higher you increase variance.. at ten seconds all p2pool can get at best is a factor of 60*3 reduction in variance
637 2013-03-30 06:19:14 <warren> I never really understood how the share difficulty adjustment fairly grants "5 shares" less often as the documentation says.
638 2013-03-30 06:20:15 owowo has quit (Quit: sayonara)
639 2013-03-30 06:20:26 <warren> gmaxwell: have you given up on your fork merging idea? Is the circular issue unsolvable?
640 2013-03-30 06:20:29 <gmaxwell> given the high p2pool network stale rate I think most fixing the nonce and cgminer compat issues would probably make it okay, even given the lateness.
641 2013-03-30 06:20:49 <gmaxwell> warren: I haven't thought about it much more. I just have way too many things going on now.
642 2013-03-30 06:21:35 <gmaxwell> warren: also, with forrestv not being very active lately I'm not sure where its going to go.
643 2013-03-30 06:22:00 <warren> Yeah, I don't have an Avalon, and I'm sad there is no good decentralized solution for them right now.
644 2013-03-30 06:22:05 <warren> Aside from solo mining.
645 2013-03-30 06:22:44 <warren> gmaxwell: is it true that bitcoind falls over if you solo mine an Avalon directly to RPC? One forum post mentioned that you need a pool server between it.
646 2013-03-30 06:23:21 <gmaxwell> warren: absolutely. CGminer can only do getwork mining against bitcoind. And thats obviously not going to work.
647 2013-03-30 06:23:53 <gmaxwell> once luke's bfgminer port to avalon is actually working it shouldn't be a big deal to get that working against bitcoind.
648 2013-03-30 06:24:29 <gmaxwell> (last time I tried getworkmining against bitcoind it fell over at less than 10GH/s)
649 2013-03-30 06:24:36 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
650 2013-03-30 06:24:43 <MC1984> oh dear
651 2013-03-30 06:25:10 <BlueMatt> not surprising, it recalculates blocks for every getwork iirc
652 2013-03-30 06:25:45 <warren> gmaxwell: Aside from the Avalon issues, all my experimentation on p2pool has lead me to believe that we've been hitting a natural scaling limitation. As you have too many p2pool nodes, many of them with useless or zero amount of hashing power, share propagation time becomes worse and worse, which isn't a real problem except it scares users away when they see orphans and don't understand efficiency.
653 2013-03-30 06:25:50 <gmaxwell> it may be faster nowâ a lot of stupidity has been fixed since then
654 2013-03-30 06:26:10 Tantadruj has quit (Quit: DoubleRecall Turns Paywalls Into Advertising Dollars - NYTimes.com http://nyti.ms/odHOgy)
655 2013-03-30 06:26:14 <gmaxwell> warren: well thats a UI issue more than anything else.
656 2013-03-30 06:26:30 <gmaxwell> but people getting scared off because they didn't understand that stuff isn't new
657 2013-03-30 06:26:52 <gmaxwell> and it's actually somewhat hard to understand, which is why you'll get misinformation on it from people who should know better (e.g. authors of mining software)
658 2013-03-30 06:27:03 <warren> This scaling limitation is far worse on p2pool LTC, where network hashrate seems to scale at ~25% of BTC's peak hashrate. When it reaches the peak hashrate we begin seeing 25-35% networkwide stale rate, and people begin quitting.
659 2013-03-30 06:27:06 Tantadruj has joined
660 2013-03-30 06:27:40 <warren> oops, s/where network hashrate seems to scale/where network hashrate seems to peak/
661 2013-03-30 06:27:45 <MC1984> i tried running a hashless p2pool node because i was told it would help :/
662 2013-03-30 06:27:48 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
663 2013-03-30 06:28:24 ^Miro^ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
664 2013-03-30 06:28:32 <warren> I think LTC has lots of p2pool nodes with a useless CPU miner. When you have too many useless p2pool nodes, share propagation time becomes worse.
665 2013-03-30 06:28:46 ^Miro^ has joined
666 2013-03-30 06:28:54 <jgarzik> make p2pool share interval == LTC interval :)
667 2013-03-30 06:28:54 <warren> That is unless you figure out who are the other useful nodes and manually connect to each other, so you aren't subject to the whims of its random selection.
668 2013-03-30 06:29:12 <gmaxwell> LTC doesn't exactly generalize though.. the POW is much more expensive to execute once, and p2pool doesn't even have a fast implementation of it.
669 2013-03-30 06:29:15 <warren> jgarzik: haha. solo mining?
670 2013-03-30 06:29:37 <gmaxwell> warren: thats not solo mining... PPLNS
671 2013-03-30 06:29:45 <warren> oh right
672 2013-03-30 06:29:58 <warren> PPLNS with variance as bad as solo mining
673 2013-03-30 06:30:06 <gmaxwell> no, 1/3rd.
674 2013-03-30 06:30:18 <warren> huh? hmm...
675 2013-03-30 06:30:27 nus has joined
676 2013-03-30 06:30:30 <gmaxwell> (or whatever you set the LNS window to)
677 2013-03-30 06:30:36 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
678 2013-03-30 06:31:38 nus-- has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
679 2013-03-30 06:31:42 Tantadruj has quit (Client Quit)
680 2013-03-30 06:32:05 <jgarzik> I like BTC Guild's PPLNS system... you have multiple shifts, where each shift contains a fixed amount of shares such as 6,000,000
681 2013-03-30 06:32:38 Tantadruj has joined
682 2013-03-30 06:32:58 <warren> jgarzik: non-p2pool PPLNS has the luxury of not orphaning each other's shares and they don't need to payout dust all the time.
683 2013-03-30 06:33:04 <jgarzik> https://www.btcguild.com/index.php?page=support§ion=howamipaid
684 2013-03-30 06:33:57 <warren> gmaxwell: reducing the shares per day would actually be a decent solution for an Avalon-only p2pool.
685 2013-03-30 06:34:30 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I never liked the shifts stuff it seems harder to reason about: it's really big attraction is that it doesn't thrash the @@#$#@$@# out of a database. But if you're not talking about diff-1 shares that isn't much of an issue.
686 2013-03-30 06:34:31 yebyen has joined
687 2013-03-30 06:34:37 <jgarzik> warren: I certainly think so...
688 2013-03-30 06:34:55 yebyen is now known as Guest98936
689 2013-03-30 06:34:55 <gmaxwell> warren: certantly, and it would be a few minute hack to doâ and I would have done it already if not for the other issues.
690 2013-03-30 06:36:29 uberdub has joined
691 2013-03-30 06:36:42 <warren> gmaxwell: although there would be so few of them online, they would be easy to identify and DoS
692 2013-03-30 06:36:43 <jgarzik> warren: I think an ASIC-specific p2pool fork would be reasonable
693 2013-03-30 06:36:51 <jgarzik> well, let's call it "high diff, slower shares"
694 2013-03-30 06:37:10 <jgarzik> I would certainly mine p2pool, if it was Avalon friendly
695 2013-03-30 06:37:12 <jgarzik> in a heartbeat
696 2013-03-30 06:37:31 catcowllama has joined
697 2013-03-30 06:37:34 <gmaxwell> I'm pretty sure we could have 1TH on it within a week.
698 2013-03-30 06:38:11 <warren> I'd be concerned about DoS attacks if you had a p2pool that small. You'd need to keep the nodes by-invite only. No IRC/DNS seed.
699 2013-03-30 06:38:13 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: p2pool handles chain reorgs, mimicing bitcoin?
700 2013-03-30 06:38:18 * jgarzik ponders a C/C++ rewrite
701 2013-03-30 06:38:48 <jgarzik> warren: send shares via bitmessage broadcast :)
702 2013-03-30 06:38:53 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yes, it's somewhat different because the chain isn't rooted e.g. you don't go back to a genesis block.
703 2013-03-30 06:39:36 <warren> Wouldn't it also be a danger if one p2pool node had too many Avalons? They could unintentionally 51% the sharechain and orphan other valid shares.
704 2013-03-30 06:40:06 <gmaxwell> warren: thats not how it works. Your node will take the foreign chain if it was earler, staling your own shares.
705 2013-03-30 06:40:08 sgornick has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
706 2013-03-30 06:40:12 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: it would be nice to root from the bitcoin blockchain. "p2pool <information>" in coinbase.
707 2013-03-30 06:40:18 <gmaxwell> (At one time I was >50% p2pool)
708 2013-03-30 06:40:23 <jgarzik> bootstrap from there
709 2013-03-30 06:41:11 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: no need, you bootstrap backwards from whatever is current.
710 2013-03-30 06:41:34 RoboTeddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
711 2013-03-30 06:41:40 <jgarzik> warren: re DoS, current p2pool network seemed tiny and vulnerable to that, in any case
712 2013-03-30 06:41:41 <warren> So a high-share diff p2pool, by-invite only, would smooth variance out. Just don't allow blockchain.info to connect to your bitcoind and hopefully the nodes will remain off the radar.
713 2013-03-30 06:41:56 <gmaxwell> and stop when you have 'enough' the bitcoin block headers in the shares give you a more trustworthy time reference than you'd normally have in an independant blockchain.
714 2013-03-30 06:42:02 Guest98936 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
715 2013-03-30 06:42:30 <warren> jgarzik: current p2pool network was never so large in proportion to total global hashrate. If easy to find, ASIC-only p2pool would be an easy to kill target with few nodes.
716 2013-03-30 06:42:43 <warren> concentration
717 2013-03-30 06:42:48 <gmaxwell> warren: it's pretty easy to have non-public p2pool nodes. I ran that way for a long timeâ with a public node and a private one. and the private one connected through my other internet connection to other major p2pool miners.
718 2013-03-30 06:43:43 <warren> gmaxwell: ah, that works, with 10 second intervals that will increase your orphan rate a measurable amount, but that isn't a concern with longer intervals.
719 2013-03-30 06:44:15 <gmaxwell> warren: it didn't, fwiw. My setup was always 100% eff or better.
720 2013-03-30 06:44:39 <warren> gmaxwell: that might be more a measure of most newbies not setting things up properly...
721 2013-03-30 06:44:58 <gmaxwell> nah. it added 3 ms. There was no rational reason for it to be worse.
722 2013-03-30 06:44:59 <warren> "measurable amount" would be at most 0.5% by my measurements
723 2013-03-30 06:45:17 <gmaxwell> you're measuring stuff with litecoin again, stop it.
724 2013-03-30 06:45:19 <gmaxwell> :P
725 2013-03-30 06:45:28 <warren> 3ms? There's a much larger delay than that from one local p2pool node receiving a share and the next local node receiving it.
726 2013-03-30 06:45:49 <warren> More like 200ms
727 2013-03-30 06:45:52 <gmaxwell> warren: hah no.
728 2013-03-30 06:46:13 <warren> argh, I missed the partwhere you directly connect to other big miners.
729 2013-03-30 06:46:32 <warren> You have a buffer on incoming connections only, I see.
730 2013-03-30 06:46:52 <gmaxwell> well I had incoming to the private node, but only incoming from trusted parties.
731 2013-03-30 06:47:08 <warren> heh
732 2013-03-30 06:47:13 duckybsd has joined
733 2013-03-30 06:47:16 <gmaxwell> Yes. but the 3ms number is the delay through another node that I measured. Sounds like p2pool's scrypt is busted slow, is it pure python?
734 2013-03-30 06:47:28 <warren> no, it's a C module
735 2013-03-30 06:47:34 <gmaxwell> hm. odd.
736 2013-03-30 06:48:22 <warren> BTW, any idea what causes GBT latency to change so much? A few weeks ago it was always 50ms. Last week it was stuck at 400ms. Now it is 200ms. Seems consistent across everyone's nodes.
737 2013-03-30 06:48:34 <gmaxwell> warren: it's the mempool size
738 2013-03-30 06:48:48 <warren> huh. I thought LTC doesn't have tx's.
739 2013-03-30 06:48:50 <warren> =)
740 2013-03-30 06:49:05 <gmaxwell> oh LTC? hm! interestin question.
741 2013-03-30 06:49:16 <gmaxwell> 50ms? wtf? really?
742 2013-03-30 06:49:22 <warren> yeah
743 2013-03-30 06:49:24 <gmaxwell> thats broken high!
744 2013-03-30 06:49:36 <warren> You could say that about LTC in general.
745 2013-03-30 06:49:41 Tantadra has joined
746 2013-03-30 06:50:32 <gmaxwell> bitcoin numbers from when I was last running it were more like 3ms-50ms.
747 2013-03-30 06:50:57 knotwork has joined
748 2013-03-30 06:50:58 knotwork has quit (Changing host)
749 2013-03-30 06:50:58 knotwork has joined
750 2013-03-30 06:51:16 duckybsd is now known as anonymous
751 2013-03-30 06:51:17 * warren finds a public p2pool BTC node.
752 2013-03-30 06:51:46 anonymous is now known as Guest40021
753 2013-03-30 06:51:58 Guest40021 is now known as duckybsd
754 2013-03-30 06:52:03 <warren> gmaxwell: http://p2pool.stitthappens.com:8336/static/graphs.html?Day here's a random p2pool BTC node
755 2013-03-30 06:52:36 <gmaxwell> well thats not useful
756 2013-03-30 06:52:49 <MC1984> whats the commend to disallow incoming connections
757 2013-03-30 06:53:01 <gmaxwell> -listen=0
758 2013-03-30 06:53:05 <warren> 238ms GBT latency over the past week. That's comparable to what I used to see on p2pool BTC.
759 2013-03-30 06:53:06 HM has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
760 2013-03-30 06:53:15 <MC1984> can i put that in bitcoin.conf?
761 2013-03-30 06:53:33 parasciidic has joined
762 2013-03-30 06:53:47 <MC1984> or better yet, is there one to limit incoming connections
763 2013-03-30 06:54:13 <gmaxwell> MC1984: yes, and maxconnections=
764 2013-03-30 06:54:24 <MC1984> my problem is mem usage seems to scale pretty linearly with connection count
765 2013-03-30 06:54:33 <MC1984> thans gmaxwell
766 2013-03-30 06:55:40 <gmaxwell> warren: https://people.xiph.org/~greg/gbt.latency.png
767 2013-03-30 06:56:14 <warren> Is the left scale seconds?
768 2013-03-30 06:56:20 <gmaxwell> warren: https://people.xiph.org/~greg/gbtlatency.png note, both these graphs were created because things were unusually high, which resulted in subsiquent improvements.
769 2013-03-30 06:56:30 <gmaxwell> warren: yes
770 2013-03-30 06:56:45 <gmaxwell> 'sharky' there was a broken 0.7 node.
771 2013-03-30 06:57:17 mappum has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
772 2013-03-30 06:57:39 <warren> gmaxwell: whatever the cause, it was an average of 50ms a month ago, and now it's between 200-400ms
773 2013-03-30 06:57:40 mappum has joined
774 2013-03-30 06:57:58 <warren> maybe we have some actual tx's now due to the bubble
775 2013-03-30 06:58:20 HM has joined
776 2013-03-30 06:58:21 <warren> although the block explorer shows most blocks with single digit quantities of tx's, with maximum of a few dozen sometimes.
777 2013-03-30 06:58:25 <gmaxwell> oh, I know what the problem is.
778 2013-03-30 06:58:29 <warren> ?
779 2013-03-30 06:58:45 <gmaxwell> pfft. I am not litecoin techsupport. :P
780 2013-03-30 06:59:30 <warren> I'm guessing this GBT latency doesn't hurt p2pool vs. the centralized pools?
781 2013-03-30 07:00:11 <gmaxwell> warren: they suffer the same stuff though usually don't know about it.
782 2013-03-30 07:00:15 <MC1984> !blocks
783 2013-03-30 07:00:15 <gribble> 228717
784 2013-03-30 07:01:01 uberdub has left ("Once you know what it is you want to be true, instinct is a very useful device for enabling you to know that it is")
785 2013-03-30 07:01:59 <warren> gmaxwell: whatever the issue is, will it fix itself when litecoin rebases to 0.8.x?
786 2013-03-30 07:02:08 Grishnap has joined
787 2013-03-30 07:03:51 <gmaxwell> warren: litecoin is going to do that?
788 2013-03-30 07:04:03 <warren> gmaxwell: yes
789 2013-03-30 07:04:13 <gmaxwell> IIRC they've never rebased, just backported fixes.
790 2013-03-30 07:04:43 <warren> gmaxwell: clean rebase with minimal changes upon upstream is the plan, I assume coblee will choose different future dates for the hardfork.
791 2013-03-30 07:05:06 <gmaxwell> hardfork? oh for the dblocking stuff.
792 2013-03-30 07:05:12 <warren> yes
793 2013-03-30 07:06:34 <gmaxwell> I feels kinda crappy that compeating cryptocurrencies will take advantage of the hard optimization work without basically contributing anything to the ecosystem, and while concurrently billing themselves as more agile. :( oh well.
794 2013-03-30 07:06:58 <gmaxwell> I'd glad they have some active development again at least.
795 2013-03-30 07:07:05 <warren> I wouldn't call it "active".
796 2013-03-30 07:07:12 <gmaxwell> maybe in their port they'll find some useful bugs.
797 2013-03-30 07:07:18 iceblue has joined
798 2013-03-30 07:07:30 <Graet> yeah, 1 pat time dev is ltc's major issue.....
799 2013-03-30 07:07:35 <Graet> part*
800 2013-03-30 07:07:52 Tantadra has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
801 2013-03-30 07:08:11 <warren> If an accidental hardfork happened on LTC, nobody would notice for a few days.
802 2013-03-30 07:08:21 <warren> You would see a few confused forum posts at first
803 2013-03-30 07:08:31 <warren> then everyone realizes something seriously bad happened
804 2013-03-30 07:08:31 <BlueMatt> sadly, bitcoin doesnt have all that many devs either
805 2013-03-30 07:08:36 <Graet> sounds fun :P
806 2013-03-30 07:08:45 <gmaxwell> I suppose it's the same problem we have. Anyone who wants to develop goes and does their own think (writes their own node, creates their own altcoin): it's both easier and easier to monetize.
807 2013-03-30 07:09:20 <gmaxwell> s/think/thing/
808 2013-03-30 07:09:23 <BlueMatt> if only there were an easy way to drastically increase patch-review-bandwidth
809 2013-03-30 07:09:41 <warren> Suddenly 50% of the hash rate disappearing is not unheard of for alt coins, so that wouldn't tip people off that a hardfork happened.
810 2013-03-30 07:10:28 <gmaxwell> shouldn't throw rocks. Bitcoin has been attacked without us noticing. ... though this seems to mostly be because the attacks didn't cause much actual issues.
811 2013-03-30 07:11:03 <gmaxwell> warren: I could even imagine a fork like that going on for days depending on how ltc pools pay miners.
812 2013-03-30 07:11:07 <coblee> hey guys. i just went to 80% time on my job so i can spend more time on Litecoin development. And warren and pooler have offered to help with the rebase to 0.8.1. So there should be more active development soon.
813 2013-03-30 07:11:12 <gmaxwell> e.g. if they're paying with old funds....
814 2013-03-30 07:12:22 <coblee> yeah, we have a lot less devs and people in the know running Litecoin clients. so we may not notice a hard fork as fast as Bitcoin did
815 2013-03-30 07:12:44 <gmaxwell> coblee: congrats on the change, I hope it works out well for you. You know if you want to talk relevant technology you're always welcome to do so here.
816 2013-03-30 07:12:47 <MC1984> lots of 4channers all over litecoin now
817 2013-03-30 07:12:49 <coblee> The fast and effective way you dealt with the last issue was impressive
818 2013-03-30 07:12:53 <MC1984> so good luck with that
819 2013-03-30 07:13:08 <warren> coblee: Beyond merely code development, I suggest some central coordination of security response, PR and other functions that can be delegated to volunteers. I would be happy to write this out in a proposal if there were a good medium to communicate it. (No, a forum post is not a good medium.)
820 2013-03-30 07:13:18 <coblee> thanks gmaxwell. i definitely do come here to chat
821 2013-03-30 07:13:32 * BlueMatt wishes people would notify him when their pulls are going untested for days because pull-tester froze...
822 2013-03-30 07:13:48 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: pulltester is slow enough that its not obvious if its frozen or busy.
823 2013-03-30 07:14:04 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: when its caught-up it only takes it max an hour to respond
824 2013-03-30 07:14:19 <BlueMatt> if its taking longer its because it died (which it used to very often, though I think many of the bugs have been worked out)
825 2013-03-30 07:14:29 <BlueMatt> now if only it could get caught up
826 2013-03-30 07:14:36 <gmaxwell> If I notice I certantly would have nagged if I noticed.
827 2013-03-30 07:14:42 <MC1984> lots of people with crossfire radeons who are upset they didnt get in on bitcoin in 2010
828 2013-03-30 07:14:54 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: is there some status page for this thing we can see?
829 2013-03-30 07:15:03 <MC1984> lots of litecoin pump threads
830 2013-03-30 07:15:05 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: when it's slow I'd check a status page if I knew where one was.
831 2013-03-30 07:15:25 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: hmm...lemme see if I can whip up a current test symlink in http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/
832 2013-03-30 07:15:37 <gmaxwell> MC1984: hey, if it makes more people hack on the same code we use and come up with useful ideas an alternativesâ it's all gravy.
833 2013-03-30 07:15:55 <MC1984> were it so
834 2013-03-30 07:16:11 <MC1984> its mostly pople looking for a gravy train
835 2013-03-30 07:16:19 <warren> coblee: have a moment?
836 2013-03-30 07:16:24 <coblee> warren: good point
837 2013-03-30 07:16:37 <gmaxwell> MC1984: so? and if that makes them make software improvements... great.
838 2013-03-30 07:16:55 <coblee> warren: yeah
839 2013-03-30 07:16:56 <MC1984> did you miss the 4channers part :p
840 2013-03-30 07:17:00 <warren> coblee: priv
841 2013-03-30 07:17:21 <gmaxwell> MC1984: sure, so they'll DOS attack each other
842 2013-03-30 07:17:32 <MC1984> lol
843 2013-03-30 07:17:39 <gmaxwell> MC1984: and then litecoin will fix dos attacks. and the the grownups here will get the increased secureity too.
844 2013-03-30 07:17:45 <gmaxwell> security*
845 2013-03-30 07:18:07 <MC1984> 4chan had its own btc mining pool a few years ago, it packed up and disappeared the second it found a block
846 2013-03-30 07:18:08 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yes, it has a status indicator, check the timestamps and test.log at http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/current/
847 2013-03-30 07:18:12 <MC1984> they learned something that day
848 2013-03-30 07:18:43 <gmaxwell> MC1984: there have been a bunch of scam pools.
849 2013-03-30 07:19:03 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: fantastic.
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856 2013-03-30 07:28:28 <MC1984> what does received getdata for: txXXXXXX mean
857 2013-03-30 07:28:29 o2 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
858 2013-03-30 07:28:40 <MC1984> i thought txns are pushed not pulled
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861 2013-03-30 07:30:15 <gmaxwell> MC1984: they are both.
862 2013-03-30 07:30:20 <BlueMatt> no, you push an inv ie "I have a tx" then you request the tx, then get it
863 2013-03-30 07:30:38 <gmaxwell> nodes push compact announcements, then the far end pulls the bulkier txn if it doesn't already have it
864 2013-03-30 07:30:51 <MC1984> oh that makes sense
865 2013-03-30 07:30:55 <gmaxwell> prevents data from being sent twice.
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867 2013-03-30 07:32:20 <MC1984> watching the logtail helps me understand what bitcoin actually does and in what order
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880 2013-03-30 07:51:44 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: but what if every atom in the ocean was replaced with a miner?!
881 2013-03-30 07:53:02 o2 has joined
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883 2013-03-30 07:58:42 <Graet> all the fishes would die :(
884 2013-03-30 07:59:23 Anduck has joined
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886 2013-03-30 07:59:23 Anduck has joined
887 2013-03-30 07:59:27 <gmaxwell> we'll make them into miners too.
888 2013-03-30 07:59:30 <gmaxwell> zombie fish miners
889 2013-03-30 08:00:41 <warren> Stop leaking the secret plan.
890 2013-03-30 08:01:08 <Graet> i was hoping the zombies would go away with the botnets :/
891 2013-03-30 08:02:38 techlife has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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895 2013-03-30 08:07:01 <flound1129> herro
896 2013-03-30 08:09:06 grau has joined
897 2013-03-30 08:14:07 <MC1984> we must make several nanomachine probes designed to turn matter into bitcoin miners and fire them off in the general direction of galactic centre
898 2013-03-30 08:14:31 <MC1984> this is the only way to ensure long term stability of the system
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902 2013-03-30 08:20:08 <eculver> ^^
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919 2013-03-30 08:36:52 <wumpus> MC1984: great idea!
920 2013-03-30 08:37:12 <wumpus> for a charles stross novel, at least :p
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937 2013-03-30 08:55:18 <uberdub> can anyone tell me why im getting segfaults when I try to run bitcoin-qt?
938 2013-03-30 08:56:12 knotwork has joined
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941 2013-03-30 08:59:36 <Insu> segfault is a very random error unless combined with a log of some sort ;)
942 2013-03-30 09:00:25 <wumpus> you really need backtraces and debug logs etc to make any sense of that
943 2013-03-30 09:00:37 bernard75 is now known as pinkpony
944 2013-03-30 09:01:03 pinkpony is now known as pinkp0ny
945 2013-03-30 09:01:22 <wumpus> or even better, a specific way of reproducing it
946 2013-03-30 09:01:46 cads has joined
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951 2013-03-30 09:10:03 <uberdub> ugh
952 2013-03-30 09:10:36 <uberdub> im just a lowly end user. Can anyone point me to a .deb for squeeze?
953 2013-03-30 09:10:50 fanquake has left ()
954 2013-03-30 09:11:39 Thepok has joined
955 2013-03-30 09:12:31 <uberdub> I can only find it in the experimental repos
956 2013-03-30 09:12:52 Ashaman has joined
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958 2013-03-30 09:21:30 gdsl_afk is now known as gdsl
959 2013-03-30 09:24:24 <jrmithdobbs> so you want to use something less than two years old but you want it as part of your os released more than two years ago
960 2013-03-30 09:24:27 <jrmithdobbs> please
961 2013-03-30 09:24:28 <jrmithdobbs> go on
962 2013-03-30 09:25:05 <jrmithdobbs> i am intrigued by your notions on time flows and/or coherency
963 2013-03-30 09:27:07 mouseofthesteppe has joined
964 2013-03-30 09:29:13 jdnavarro has joined
965 2013-03-30 09:29:19 <mouseofthesteppe> when downloading the ppa version, how do i check if i've downloaded an updated bitcoin qt and not just just the basic client?
966 2013-03-30 09:30:30 <mouseofthesteppe> nvm found it
967 2013-03-30 09:30:35 mouseofthesteppe has left ()
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970 2013-03-30 09:35:08 bernard75 is now known as rosap0ny
971 2013-03-30 09:36:17 <jdnavarro> the link to reply in bitcoin forums doesn't show up for me
972 2013-03-30 09:36:30 <jdnavarro> what needs to be done to participate?
973 2013-03-30 09:38:08 qwertyoruiop is now known as zz_qwertyoruiop
974 2013-03-30 09:38:32 <Graet> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=15958.0 has info jdnavarro
975 2013-03-30 09:41:51 <jdnavarro> thanks
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980 2013-03-30 09:50:44 Casimir1904 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
981 2013-03-30 09:58:45 <uberdub> dmesg gives segfaults
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987 2013-03-30 10:08:16 <warren> uberdub: uh.... something is wrong with your system, not bitcoin
988 2013-03-30 10:08:44 <uberdub> its debian
989 2013-03-30 10:09:15 <uberdub> bitcoin is in the experimental repos
990 2013-03-30 10:09:41 <uberdub> dependencies are biggest issue
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998 2013-03-30 10:24:57 <HM> Daemon memory usage is still a touch high
999 2013-03-30 10:25:00 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1000 2013-03-30 10:25:13 <HM> 2800 MB virtual, 980MB resident, 8 active connections
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1030 2013-03-30 11:14:09 <MC-Droid> hd that seems high
1031 2013-03-30 11:14:24 <MC-Droid> memory usage is being worked on apparently
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1040 2013-03-30 11:31:12 <topi`> any ideas if its possible to run bitcoind on top of a NFS mount? (nfs mounts lack sparse file support, for example)
1041 2013-03-30 11:31:36 <topi`> I'm running severely out of disk space, so lending space from another host would be useful
1042 2013-03-30 11:31:50 talengix has joined
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1044 2013-03-30 11:32:08 <ThomasV> how can you run out of disk space these days
1045 2013-03-30 11:33:01 <_dr> 1080p 3d porn?
1046 2013-03-30 11:33:19 <ThomasV> move to nfs whatever eats your disk space and needs less access than the blockchain
1047 2013-03-30 11:33:36 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1048 2013-03-30 11:33:45 <ThomasV> yeah, pr0n is a good candidate
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1051 2013-03-30 11:35:39 <topi`> ThomasV: my server is running off of a 32-gb SD card
1052 2013-03-30 11:35:41 techlife has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1053 2013-03-30 11:35:41 <Eliel> not every system is installed with a terabyte class hard drive
1054 2013-03-30 11:36:06 <HM> true, some have several terabyte class hard drives
1055 2013-03-30 11:36:09 <topi`> also, I don't know how severely LevelDB will wear the NAND out
1056 2013-03-30 11:36:14 <ThomasV> topi`: nfs will be slower than that
1057 2013-03-30 11:36:44 techlife has joined
1058 2013-03-30 11:36:47 <topi`> NAND *writes* are always slow
1059 2013-03-30 11:36:50 <ThomasV> I would not worry abour wearing out
1060 2013-03-30 11:37:27 <ThomasV> true
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1062 2013-03-30 11:38:05 <warren> topi`: NFS tends to be extremely slow and unreliable
1063 2013-03-30 11:38:38 <ThomasV> but 32 gb is plenty. remove packages you don't use :))
1064 2013-03-30 11:39:14 <warren> topi`: there's better alternatives to NFS. nbd or iscsi would be faster and (oddly enough) more reliable than NFS.
1065 2013-03-30 11:39:19 xtor_ has joined
1066 2013-03-30 11:39:37 <warren> topi`: people actually do swap over nbd
1067 2013-03-30 11:39:49 <topi`> hm, interesting
1068 2013-03-30 11:40:05 <warren> topi`: LTSP for years has done rootfs and swap over nbd
1069 2013-03-30 11:40:11 <topi`> NFS is what we old skool sysadmins know of. everything else is out of the comfort zone ;)
1070 2013-03-30 11:40:16 <HM> NFS comes in many versions
1071 2013-03-30 11:40:21 <HM> up to v4.x now
1072 2013-03-30 11:40:26 <warren> HM: all of which are slow
1073 2013-03-30 11:40:32 <topi`> ok, NFSv3 ;)
1074 2013-03-30 11:40:43 <HM> No doubt
1075 2013-03-30 11:40:47 <ThomasV> I tried gmailfs at some point
1076 2013-03-30 11:40:52 <HM> lol
1077 2013-03-30 11:41:01 <ThomasV> it was fun
1078 2013-03-30 11:41:07 <topi`> so bitcoind does work on top of a volume that *cannot* support sparse files?
1079 2013-03-30 11:41:10 <warren> NFS is a good idea if you need permissions enforced on shared homedirs across many computers. Otherwise you're better off with nbd or iscsi.
1080 2013-03-30 11:41:19 <ThomasV> gmailfs is slower than s3fs, of course
1081 2013-03-30 11:41:20 Guest79489 is now known as blinky
1082 2013-03-30 11:41:23 <HM> topi`: afaik sparse files are transparent
1083 2013-03-30 11:41:36 <HM> there's no magic in bitcoind that says you need sparse file support
1084 2013-03-30 11:41:47 <warren> HM: apparently leveldb uses it
1085 2013-03-30 11:41:50 <topi`> well, you need that e.g. for swapfiles
1086 2013-03-30 11:42:13 <HM> yeah but I can't imagine Google not providing fallback
1087 2013-03-30 11:42:51 <topi`> hmm, I have 100 GB google drive for free, when I bought a Chromebook
1088 2013-03-30 11:43:00 extor has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1089 2013-03-30 11:43:01 <topi`> I wonder if it's mountable from linux?
1090 2013-03-30 11:43:23 <topi`> probably not good for the blockchain, but the other stuff
1091 2013-03-30 11:43:25 <warren> Is google drive like dropbox? if so it is only a sync filesystem
1092 2013-03-30 11:43:40 <warren> replicating stuff you already have
1093 2013-03-30 11:44:14 <topi`> cannot be, since Chromebooks only have 16GB local storage
1094 2013-03-30 11:44:34 <warren> oh, you can upload/download from it, I'm just not sure you can mount it.
1095 2013-03-30 11:45:18 <jgarzik> NFSv4 is quite fast :)
1096 2013-03-30 11:45:20 dvide has joined
1097 2013-03-30 11:46:01 <warren> jgarzik: when setting up the 11TB linux mirror here, I benchmarked NFSv4 vs. ext4 on iscsi, and the latter was wayyyyyyy faster.
1098 2013-03-30 11:46:19 <warren> we didn't need the filesystem to be mountable on more than one machine, so went with iscsi
1099 2013-03-30 11:46:55 <HM> It stands to reason a proper network filesystem would work better for high level operations like reading fs metadata and such than a low level network layer like NBD
1100 2013-03-30 11:47:16 <HM> whereas a low level approach would win for hardcore streamed i/o like large copies
1101 2013-03-30 11:47:29 <HM> just my 2p
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1103 2013-03-30 11:48:45 <warren> bonnie++ file creation and deletion and random i/o was much faster with anything not NFS. We used NFS at first on the mirror but it had performance issues, and at the time the NFS cache was a "technology preview" in RHEL (I vaguely recall it was later removed?)
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1132 2013-03-30 12:21:44 <skinnkavaj> sipa
1133 2013-03-30 12:22:12 <skinnkavaj> can you explain to me why bitcoin-qt doesnt allow to import private keys while other clients does?
1134 2013-03-30 12:23:18 <HM> you can import private keys using the command line
1135 2013-03-30 12:23:41 <skinnkavaj> ok but why isnt it built in :p
1136 2013-03-30 12:23:54 <HM> no idea
1137 2013-03-30 12:24:14 <HM> GUI programmers are cruel and vindictive
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1140 2013-03-30 12:31:14 riesenschwanz is now known as bernard75
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1146 2013-03-30 12:35:56 <bwen> is it possible to link multiple wallet addresses to the same wallet without having the root key or chain code?
1147 2013-03-30 12:36:54 <bwen> like if someone would query to blockchain, could he link addresses and affirm they all come from the same wallet?
1148 2013-03-30 12:37:57 saulimus has joined
1149 2013-03-30 12:38:03 PinkParrot has joined
1150 2013-03-30 12:38:18 <Scrat> bwen: no. and there is no root key or chain code
1151 2013-03-30 12:38:20 <PinkParrot> hi
1152 2013-03-30 12:38:40 <PinkParrot> what is the equivalent of settxfee to get the tx fees in the API ? gettxfee does not exist..
1153 2013-03-30 12:39:01 <Scrat> PinkParrot: getinfo
1154 2013-03-30 12:39:19 <bwen> Scrat: what if the addresses are generate by Armory? with their paper backup I can restore all my addresses with the root key and chain code...
1155 2013-03-30 12:39:19 <PinkParrot> brilliant
1156 2013-03-30 12:39:27 systemParanoid has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1157 2013-03-30 12:40:04 <Scrat> bwen: in this case it's named a seed, and no you can't
1158 2013-03-30 12:40:24 <bwen> aight, ty
1159 2013-03-30 12:40:32 <PinkParrot> other question.
1160 2013-03-30 12:41:08 <PinkParrot> in the api there are ways to send btc from accounts to addresses but I cannot find a way to send from an address to another address. Is there such a function ?
1161 2013-03-30 12:41:24 <PinkParrot> i assume there are multiple addresses in an account
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1163 2013-03-30 12:42:01 <Scrat> PinkParrot: can only do that with rawtransactions, also look into /contrib, there's a script that does that
1164 2013-03-30 12:42:39 <Scrat> PinkParrot: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tree/master/contrib/spendfrom
1165 2013-03-30 12:42:40 <PinkParrot> otherwise, how bitcoind will choose wich address to use to send btc ? this is strange to me or I am missing something
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1168 2013-03-30 12:46:10 kalleboo is now known as kalleboo|away
1169 2013-03-30 12:46:33 <Scrat> I believe that it chooses unspent outputs (not addresses) in a way that minimizes tx size
1170 2013-03-30 12:47:41 coolfengyu has joined
1171 2013-03-30 12:48:28 <wumpus> skinnkavaj: because importing private keys was deemed dangerous, there's a pull request about it somewhere
1172 2013-03-30 12:48:50 <PinkParrot> i m not following you
1173 2013-03-30 12:48:56 <skinnkavaj> wumpus: whats dangerous about it? don't understand
1174 2013-03-30 12:49:04 <PinkParrot> sending from addresses does not make sense ?
1175 2013-03-30 12:49:13 <skinnkavaj> would be more logically to say exporting is dangerouse
1176 2013-03-30 12:49:17 <skinnkavaj> for hackers to exploit
1177 2013-03-30 12:49:33 <wumpus> you should look up the issue (and maybe comment on it with a story why you think you need the functionality)
1178 2013-03-30 12:49:53 <skinnkavaj> i might be missing something here
1179 2013-03-30 12:50:37 <warren> hmm, http://bitasic.com/index.html claims to have a 80GH box available for purchase *now*
1180 2013-03-30 12:52:10 <wumpus> skinnkavaj: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2050
1181 2013-03-30 12:52:16 <PinkParrot> maybe I should attach my address to a dummy account to make the transfer and ther get rid of the account
1182 2013-03-30 12:52:33 <PinkParrot> looks cumbersome to me
1183 2013-03-30 12:53:43 kalleboo is now known as away!~kalleboo@i125-204-53-239.s11.a046.ap.plala.or.jp|kalleboo
1184 2013-03-30 12:54:53 dasilva33 has joined
1185 2013-03-30 12:55:08 <dasilva33> hey guys, i was wondering if someone could help me with an issue I'm having with my wallet
1186 2013-03-30 12:55:53 <dasilva33> when using bitcoin 0.81 i go to the rpc i type the command:
1187 2013-03-30 12:55:53 <dasilva33> gettransaction 21c1027e3eb7299dde82fbf701c1d4bd79506fcf7942fccd54f36b8896f8fc7b
1188 2013-03-30 12:56:13 <dasilva33> and it returns Invalid or non-wallet transaction id (code -5)
1189 2013-03-30 12:56:19 <jaakkos> warren: lol.
1190 2013-03-30 12:56:30 <dasilva33> getreceivedbyaddress 1HmPGgFncHsgND9PuW8wmP76ByCb2wNogF returns 0
1191 2013-03-30 12:56:35 <dasilva33> https://blockchain.info/address/1HmPGgFncHsgND9PuW8wmP76ByCb2wNogF
1192 2013-03-30 12:56:43 duckybsd has joined
1193 2013-03-30 12:56:43 <jouke> dasilva33: is that your address?
1194 2013-03-30 12:57:03 <dasilva33> i can't get Armory to display my balance and I'm at a loss as to what i'm doing wrong. it's worked before
1195 2013-03-30 12:57:34 <dasilva33> jouke my address is in that blockchain link i posted
1196 2013-03-30 12:57:53 <jaakkos> warren: oh they have added a video and pictures since the last time i checked.
1197 2013-03-30 12:58:08 <jouke> dasilva33: yes, but is it an address in your wallet?
1198 2013-03-30 12:58:19 <jouke> Does getrawtransaction give a result?
1199 2013-03-30 12:58:40 <dasilva33> yes it does
1200 2013-03-30 12:58:41 <jaakkos> warren: still it's extremely suspicious.
1201 2013-03-30 12:58:52 <dasilva33> it returns this hash: 01000000013390f15b1c12dafcc6070a7fcbe8589ec81f8843edd3b8fcc43447f46405dc8e000000008b4830450221008cb15bb0c7bd49cbabeba67e1dc61c9abe0210f64cc05722cd9e3db067c79fdf022068aff7f116870513450566f915f42d4e93f7b3dec67e6911bc6fd7221747df130141046bfe84bc3095806cc9fa16522252ec6ccc2220862131400fa8ce196839ab484087f74910dc73705bd6e985589b50b6f144c6611399795fe37246e0fb707db615ffffff
1202 2013-03-30 12:58:52 <dasilva33> ff023231e207000000001976a914645d00fab430cdf11e5599c8044bd36f61c378af88ac4163df05000000001976a914b7e6e7b8a0098a081b4a8fd0988a6531f0b36bac88ac00000000
1203 2013-03-30 12:59:31 <dasilva33> which if you then decode manually using decoderawtransaction you'll see the transaction is there
1204 2013-03-30 12:59:56 <warren> jaakkos: they've proven that a box of fans can push a piece of paper at the outtake. That's more than I've achieved in my life.
1205 2013-03-30 13:00:43 Z0rZ0rZ0r has joined
1206 2013-03-30 13:01:02 <Scrat> dasilva33: what's your blocks count if you getinfo
1207 2013-03-30 13:01:34 <dasilva33> 
1208 2013-03-30 13:01:34 <dasilva33> {
1209 2013-03-30 13:01:34 <dasilva33> "version" : 80100,
1210 2013-03-30 13:01:34 <dasilva33> "protocolversion" : 70001,
1211 2013-03-30 13:01:34 <dasilva33> "walletversion" : 60000,
1212 2013-03-30 13:01:35 <dasilva33> "balance" : 0.00000000,
1213 2013-03-30 13:01:35 <dasilva33> "blocks" : 228751,
1214 2013-03-30 13:01:36 <dasilva33> "connections" : 32,
1215 2013-03-30 13:01:36 <dasilva33> "proxy" : "",
1216 2013-03-30 13:01:37 <dasilva33> "difficulty" : 6695826.28259625,
1217 2013-03-30 13:01:37 <dasilva33> "testnet" : false,
1218 2013-03-30 13:01:38 <dasilva33> "keypoololdest" : 1364606655,
1219 2013-03-30 13:01:38 <dasilva33> "keypoolsize" : 101,
1220 2013-03-30 13:01:39 <dasilva33> "paytxfee" : 0.00000000,
1221 2013-03-30 13:02:00 <dasilva33> i was also going to show you the actual issue and that the address is under my wallet: http://i.imgur.com/WleyvUb.png
1222 2013-03-30 13:02:23 <dasilva33> notice #6 is the address on blockchain.info
1223 2013-03-30 13:02:42 coolfengyu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1224 2013-03-30 13:04:02 <Scrat> dasilva33: no idea, could be an armory issue
1225 2013-03-30 13:04:08 * Scrat ping etotheipi__
1226 2013-03-30 13:05:03 <dasilva33> my thoughts it was a bitcoin 0.81 issue because getreceivedbyaddress 1HmPGgFncHsgND9PuW8wmP76ByCb2wNogF returns 0 but you guys are saying that's normal?
1227 2013-03-30 13:05:12 <dasilva33> what does it return for you guys?
1228 2013-03-30 13:05:28 <Scrat> dasilva33: it shouldnt return anything, because it's not in our wallets
1229 2013-03-30 13:05:34 <Scrat> getreceived only works for addresses in your wallet
1230 2013-03-30 13:05:52 <dasilva33> oh i see, it doesn't 'query' the network. i get my understanding was wrong
1231 2013-03-30 13:07:13 <dasilva33> so therefore we can only assume theres nothing wrong with bitcoin 0.81 and it really is something with armory, there is a newer version i'll try that i guess thx guys
1232 2013-03-30 13:07:41 RazielXYZ has joined
1233 2013-03-30 13:08:23 <dasilva33> Changelog for Armory Beta 0.87-2 Prior attempt at supporting 0.8 Satoshi client was broken due to incomplete information about the changes. Support has finally been implemented and tested.
1234 2013-03-30 13:08:27 <dasilva33> LOL
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1241 2013-03-30 13:11:54 <HM> derp derp
1242 2013-03-30 13:12:11 <PinkParrot> is there an api call to remove an account ?
1243 2013-03-30 13:12:22 <PinkParrot> with no BTC remaining
1244 2013-03-30 13:12:23 mercerist has joined
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1246 2013-03-30 13:13:29 <wumpus> no, there isn't
1247 2013-03-30 13:13:56 <wumpus> there are some subtle problems with removing accounts, there's at least one github issue about it
1248 2013-03-30 13:14:17 <PinkParrot> so all my test accounts in my wallet will remain
1249 2013-03-30 13:14:33 <PinkParrot> not nice and clean
1250 2013-03-30 13:15:00 <wumpus> but not really a problem either
1251 2013-03-30 13:15:38 lodse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1252 2013-03-30 13:16:16 <PinkParrot> saying you can live with it does not mean it's not needed
1253 2013-03-30 13:16:33 jeewee has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1254 2013-03-30 13:16:40 BenderCoin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1255 2013-03-30 13:17:23 BenderCoin__ has joined
1256 2013-03-30 13:17:27 <PinkParrot> now i ll have to export my private keys, delete my wallet create a new one and reimport my private keys
1257 2013-03-30 13:18:08 pricad__ has quit (Read error: No route to host)
1258 2013-03-30 13:19:00 Vinnie_win has joined
1259 2013-03-30 13:19:03 <wumpus> I think deleting accounts was deemed a bad idea because of the history associated with them, but you should really look up the github issue
1260 2013-03-30 13:19:55 <PinkParrot> ok
1261 2013-03-30 13:23:02 coolfengyu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1262 2013-03-30 13:23:03 <PinkParrot> at least there should be an option to hide by default some accounts, that would be to me
1263 2013-03-30 13:23:18 <PinkParrot> ok to me
1264 2013-03-30 13:23:25 <PinkParrot> some kind of attribute
1265 2013-03-30 13:24:12 <skinnkavaj> Guys how about NFC technology and bitcoin, has any thought about that?
1266 2013-03-30 13:24:32 <skinnkavaj> so mobile payments even easier
1267 2013-03-30 13:24:37 <skinnkavaj> on android devices
1268 2013-03-30 13:24:47 <wumpus> the android app supports nfc payments
1269 2013-03-30 13:24:49 <PinkParrot> won't be instant you need confirmations
1270 2013-03-30 13:24:49 coolfengyu has joined
1271 2013-03-30 13:25:43 <skinnkavaj> how about some system with confirmations based on android devices around you
1272 2013-03-30 13:26:07 <wumpus> it's instant if you allow zero confirmation payments
1273 2013-03-30 13:26:11 <skinnkavaj> like if there are 10 or more android devices nearby that can confirm the transaction
1274 2013-03-30 13:26:20 <skinnkavaj> yes but who wants to allow zero confirmations
1275 2013-03-30 13:26:37 BenderCoin__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1276 2013-03-30 13:27:12 <wumpus> many do, but it obviously depends on the amount of cash involved
1277 2013-03-30 13:27:33 BenderCoin__ has joined
1278 2013-03-30 13:29:32 Michail1_ is now known as Michail1
1279 2013-03-30 13:29:39 <wumpus> it's unlikely that one would go through the network-deceiving hassle of double spending just to pay at a grocery store, for example
1280 2013-03-30 13:31:23 <Graet> confirmations come from blocks in bitcoin, android phones do not mine blocks very fast
1281 2013-03-30 13:31:38 <Graet> or even tabs
1282 2013-03-30 13:31:48 <wumpus> heh, and the battery usage...
1283 2013-03-30 13:32:02 coolfengyu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1284 2013-03-30 13:32:56 <skinnkavaj> im sure there is something you can do to make 0 confirmations more trustworthy via third party or by trusting people around you in large masses
1285 2013-03-30 13:33:09 <skinnkavaj> i just dont know what yet
1286 2013-03-30 13:33:12 coolfengyu has joined
1287 2013-03-30 13:33:28 <PinkParrot> skinnkavaj: i agree
1288 2013-03-30 13:33:32 voodster has joined
1289 2013-03-30 13:33:37 <PinkParrot> some kind of insurance company that will charge you for that
1290 2013-03-30 13:33:55 <Graet> i think thats what ripple is trying to do
1291 2013-03-30 13:33:56 <PinkParrot> they ll allow payments with 0 confirmations below a certain amount
1292 2013-03-30 13:34:45 <wumpus> look up 'green address'
1293 2013-03-30 13:34:56 <PinkParrot> as long as there's a need unanswered there's a business ready to jump in and charge you for that
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1296 2013-03-30 13:40:07 <Jere_Jones> I wonder if network propagation could be used to "trust" a transaction quicker.
1297 2013-03-30 13:40:09 chomzee has joined
1298 2013-03-30 13:40:17 <chomzee> hi
1299 2013-03-30 13:40:50 <chomzee> I have installed bitcoin-qt on my gentoo-laptop which has only 1GiB of RAM
1300 2013-03-30 13:41:05 coolfengyu has joined
1301 2013-03-30 13:41:06 <chomzee> and downloading the whole blockchain goes wrong
1302 2013-03-30 13:41:08 <chomzee> memory usage is huge
1303 2013-03-30 13:41:23 <chomzee> it swaps a lot
1304 2013-03-30 13:41:36 <chomzee> is this a bug? a leak maybe?
1305 2013-03-30 13:42:11 <wumpus> Jere_Jones: the problem is that that opens the protocol up to all kinds of Sybil attacks
1306 2013-03-30 13:43:14 <wumpus> someone could lie about network propagation by lying to be a lot of nodes (ie, by using a botnet or other entity with a lot of IPs)... that's why the proof of work is so important for confirmation
1307 2013-03-30 13:43:48 techlife has joined
1308 2013-03-30 13:44:08 <wumpus> chomzee: what goes wrong exactly?
1309 2013-03-30 13:44:22 <chomzee> wumpus: it uses a lot of memory
1310 2013-03-30 13:44:30 <wumpus> that is expected
1311 2013-03-30 13:44:36 <Jere_Jones> "Sybil attacks"... I need to research.
1312 2013-03-30 13:44:40 <chomzee> it seems to grow more and more
1313 2013-03-30 13:44:46 <chomzee> is it necesary?
1314 2013-03-30 13:45:15 whiterabbit has joined
1315 2013-03-30 13:45:17 <wumpus> on 1 laptop with 1gb of memory it takes very long to sync, you can get around this by copying the block chain from a faster machine
1316 2013-03-30 13:45:21 <chomzee> after few hours of downloading blockchain, ps aux shows: 1373164 560476 (that's VSZ and RSS)
1317 2013-03-30 13:45:22 <Jere_Jones> Could I verify that the transaction has made it to a node that I trust?
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1320 2013-03-30 13:46:16 <chomzee> wumpus: but why does the memory usage grow? Shouldn't it be constant? As I understand it, it processes block after block.
1321 2013-03-30 13:46:17 <wumpus> Jere_Jones: you could send the transaction to the node that you trust, even better
1322 2013-03-30 13:46:41 <wumpus> chomzee: it keeps all kinds of indexes in memory
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1326 2013-03-30 13:47:58 <chomzee> wumpus: but when I restart the app
1327 2013-03-30 13:48:02 <chomzee> it continues
1328 2013-03-30 13:48:17 <chomzee> and uses less memory than it had used before I restarted it
1329 2013-03-30 13:48:28 <chomzee> therefore, it had a bunch of memory that's not necesary
1330 2013-03-30 13:49:46 <wumpus> maybe you can debug it with valgrind or such to see where the bulk of memory is allocated.. but I'm pretty sure there are no leaks in block downloading, it's well known that bitcoind/qt simply needs a lot of memory to work
1331 2013-03-30 13:50:05 hnz has joined
1332 2013-03-30 13:51:15 <MC1984> "laanwj" has pushed more commits to bitcoin than gavin
1333 2013-03-30 13:51:27 <MC1984> never knew he existed
1334 2013-03-30 13:51:32 <wumpus> he doesn't exist
1335 2013-03-30 13:51:33 kombinezon has joined
1336 2013-03-30 13:51:49 <MC1984> https://github.com/laanwj
1337 2013-03-30 13:51:58 PinkParrot has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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1339 2013-03-30 13:52:28 <chomzee> wumpus: yes, but it certainly needs more and more memory. So it's either a big memory leak or bitcoin-qt keeps some data in the memory that's unnecesary. So that I have to restart it every hour.
1340 2013-03-30 13:52:35 <wumpus> MC1984: lol yes that's me
1341 2013-03-30 13:52:37 <chomzee> can I report a bug somewhere?
1342 2013-03-30 13:52:45 <chomzee> or should I hack it by myself? ;p
1343 2013-03-30 13:52:50 <MC1984> oh welp
1344 2013-03-30 13:52:50 normanrichards has joined
1345 2013-03-30 13:53:17 <MC1984> well done for the commitment.....
1346 2013-03-30 13:53:19 <MC1984> kekeke
1347 2013-03-30 13:53:33 iceblue has joined
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1349 2013-03-30 13:53:40 <wumpus> I don't think it makes sense to report as the memory usage of the client is well known... but if you don't trust it, you should go hacking yourself
1350 2013-03-30 13:54:03 <wumpus> or alternatively, get a laptop with more memory
1351 2013-03-30 13:54:10 kombinezon has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 20.0/20130325214615])
1352 2013-03-30 13:54:21 <chomzee> wumpus: I'm not sure if you understand me. The fact that the program uses a lot of memory is not the problem
1353 2013-03-30 13:54:29 kombinezon has joined
1354 2013-03-30 13:54:36 <chomzee> the problem is, it uses more and more memory when it shouldn't
1355 2013-03-30 13:54:40 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
1356 2013-03-30 13:54:45 <wumpus> cache <-
1357 2013-03-30 13:54:46 kombinezon has quit (Client Quit)
1358 2013-03-30 13:55:05 <chomzee> if I restart it, it continues and does the same thing right
1359 2013-03-30 13:55:06 <wumpus> when you restart the process, the database caches and such are empty
1360 2013-03-30 13:55:13 <chomzee> sure
1361 2013-03-30 13:55:31 <chomzee> it would be nice to be able to flush it
1362 2013-03-30 13:55:45 <chomzee> when memory usage goes over e.g. 1GiB
1363 2013-03-30 13:55:52 <wumpus> let's be clear.. if you can prove (ie, with a valgrind log) that there is a memory leak in bitcoin block sync, you're very welcome to report it
1364 2013-03-30 13:55:52 <chomzee> or something like that
1365 2013-03-30 13:56:05 techlife has joined
1366 2013-03-30 13:57:29 <chomzee> ok, suppose there is no memory leak whatsoever. What about a new feature I came up a minute ago? :P I mean -- ability to flush caches when memory usage goes too high? So that I won't be forced to restart the application over and over again.
1367 2013-03-30 13:57:40 tg has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1368 2013-03-30 13:58:00 normanrichards has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1369 2013-03-30 13:58:00 <wumpus> I look forward to your pull request
1370 2013-03-30 13:58:03 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
1371 2013-03-30 13:58:31 coolfengyu has joined
1372 2013-03-30 13:59:18 <chomzee> "pull request"?
1373 2013-03-30 13:59:31 <wumpus> yes, with code attached that implements that feature
1374 2013-03-30 13:59:36 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1375 2013-03-30 13:59:47 <chomzee> oh, sure :)
1376 2013-03-30 14:00:24 nomailin1 has joined
1377 2013-03-30 14:00:26 <chomzee> You guys are doing a great job, I appreciate it!
1378 2013-03-30 14:01:23 <wumpus> thanks
1379 2013-03-30 14:02:40 iceblue has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1380 2013-03-30 14:04:01 iceblue has joined
1381 2013-03-30 14:05:59 <wumpus> I think what would be better than flushing the caches once they reach 1gb would be to limit their sizes, I'm sure leveldb/bdb have calls for that
1382 2013-03-30 14:07:10 <chomzee> very well
1383 2013-03-30 14:08:00 <HM> you may as well restart the daemon
1384 2013-03-30 14:08:17 <HM> the RPC mechanism is asynchronous and closes connections after every call anyway
1385 2013-03-30 14:08:21 <chomzee> I just threw an idea, won't be able to find time to hack the code to play with it though
1386 2013-03-30 14:08:22 <HM> *synchronous
1387 2013-03-30 14:08:37 <chomzee> HM: how can I do it?
1388 2013-03-30 14:09:08 iceblue has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1389 2013-03-30 14:09:31 <HM> i had a python script once that just regularly polled the list of processes on the system, filtered out chromium and checked it's memory usage
1390 2013-03-30 14:09:38 <HM> then killed the process if it was using too much
1391 2013-03-30 14:10:16 <HM> (at the time Chromium had a severe bug that rendered my machine unresponsive)
1392 2013-03-30 14:10:34 <HM> you could do something similar but issue bitcoind stop
1393 2013-03-30 14:10:54 <HM> or better yet, integrate it into your daemon manager (systemd, or whatever)
1394 2013-03-30 14:11:03 <wumpus> lol we used to have that on the shared server at university, in ~1998... netscape had a similar blowup problem
1395 2013-03-30 14:11:30 <HM> old school, low tech brute force fixes are the best
1396 2013-03-30 14:11:31 <wumpus> it's funny how some things never change
1397 2013-03-30 14:11:34 <wumpus> yeah
1398 2013-03-30 14:11:57 ikbenwouter has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1399 2013-03-30 14:16:22 nelse has joined
1400 2013-03-30 14:16:27 bsq has joined
1401 2013-03-30 14:16:30 <chomzee> workaround for now:
1402 2013-03-30 14:16:32 <chomzee> $ while true; do bitcoin-qt & sleep 1800; killall bitcoin-qt; sleep 60; done
1403 2013-03-30 14:17:11 <chomzee> :)
1404 2013-03-30 14:17:16 <voodster> lolwut
1405 2013-03-30 14:17:22 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1406 2013-03-30 14:18:11 <chomzee> gotta go, cu
1407 2013-03-30 14:18:16 <HM> :|
1408 2013-03-30 14:18:16 ThomasV has joined
1409 2013-03-30 14:18:18 <wumpus> chomzee: likely it's better to use rpc stop command instead of kill
1410 2013-03-30 14:18:37 coolfengyu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1411 2013-03-30 14:18:47 <chomzee> wumpus: give me a hint please
1412 2013-03-30 14:18:52 <chomzee> how to do it from the console
1413 2013-03-30 14:19:18 <HM> bitcoind stop
1414 2013-03-30 14:19:20 coolfengyu has joined
1415 2013-03-30 14:19:26 <wumpus> later
1416 2013-03-30 14:19:41 <chomzee> i have no bitcoind
1417 2013-03-30 14:19:57 <bsq> is it possible to read the bitcoin blockchain offline? for example with editor on my computer
1418 2013-03-30 14:21:08 uberdub has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1419 2013-03-30 14:22:19 <bsq> how can i read the blockchain?
1420 2013-03-30 14:22:56 Belxjander has joined
1421 2013-03-30 14:23:10 <Thepok> its mostly digital data
1422 2013-03-30 14:23:20 <Thepok> you wont make much sens of it
1423 2013-03-30 14:23:30 <Thepok> use the blockchain.info website
1424 2013-03-30 14:23:51 <Thepok> they show the contend of the blockhain humanreadibl
1425 2013-03-30 14:24:38 <HM> that's not offline
1426 2013-03-30 14:25:20 Bjander has joined
1427 2013-03-30 14:25:35 <Thepok> right sorry
1428 2013-03-30 14:26:26 <Luke-Jr> bsq: debug console
1429 2013-03-30 14:27:33 cyphase has quit (Quit: http://www.cyphase.com/)
1430 2013-03-30 14:27:39 <bsq> but there are no commands .. wich i can use for adresses that i dont have in my wallet
1431 2013-03-30 14:27:48 <bsq> i think this is what i search for
1432 2013-03-30 14:27:55 <bsq> https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcointools/
1433 2013-03-30 14:28:05 coolfengyu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1434 2013-03-30 14:31:37 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1435 2013-03-30 14:32:20 <bsq> is there an option to convert this?
1436 2013-03-30 14:32:42 grau has joined
1437 2013-03-30 14:32:56 <HM> the default client doesn't index addresses
1438 2013-03-30 14:33:52 <HM> bsq: what are you looking to achieve?
1439 2013-03-30 14:34:24 <bsq> a list of all used, activ bitcoin adresses
1440 2013-03-30 14:34:40 coolfengyu has joined
1441 2013-03-30 14:36:45 valparaiso has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1442 2013-03-30 14:36:54 <bsq> how is the blockchain build?
1443 2013-03-30 14:37:32 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
1444 2013-03-30 14:37:33 Guest90822 has joined
1445 2013-03-30 14:38:17 <bsq> want help or not?
1446 2013-03-30 14:38:59 valparaiso has joined
1447 2013-03-30 14:39:53 paraipan has joined
1448 2013-03-30 14:39:57 MC-Droid has joined
1449 2013-03-30 14:40:12 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1450 2013-03-30 14:40:20 Bjander has joined
1451 2013-03-30 14:40:42 <HM> bsq: i'm not sure how exactly
1452 2013-03-30 14:41:24 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
1453 2013-03-30 14:41:25 <bsq> can i convert the complete blockchain database into a (for examel) .txt File with all transactions or blocks?
1454 2013-03-30 14:42:09 <bsq> or.. how is the blockchain build and how can i decrypt/read it?
1455 2013-03-30 14:42:10 <Belxjander> bsq: what would be the point?
1456 2013-03-30 14:42:49 <Belxjander> bsq: go to github.com and search for "bitcoin" and there should be a bitcoin/bitcoin project along with others that give you working code in various languages as examples
1457 2013-03-30 14:43:05 <Luke-Jr> bsq: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#block
1458 2013-03-30 14:43:22 <bsq> thx :D
1459 2013-03-30 14:43:35 cyphase has joined
1460 2013-03-30 14:45:22 nelse has left ()
1461 2013-03-30 14:49:47 bsq has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1462 2013-03-30 14:50:36 D34TH has joined
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1464 2013-03-30 14:52:38 kiceek has joined
1465 2013-03-30 14:55:12 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1466 2013-03-30 14:55:19 Bjander has joined
1467 2013-03-30 14:56:33 nikitis has joined
1468 2013-03-30 14:57:02 <nikitis> Is bitcoin wallet.dat's not used anymore?
1469 2013-03-30 14:57:55 berni23 has quit ()
1470 2013-03-30 14:58:16 jdnavarro has joined
1471 2013-03-30 15:01:56 coolfengyu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1472 2013-03-30 15:02:20 vigilyn has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1473 2013-03-30 15:02:26 vigilyn has joined
1474 2013-03-30 15:02:34 ovidiusoft has joined
1475 2013-03-30 15:02:38 <Luke-Jr> nikitis: it's still the all-important private key file
1476 2013-03-30 15:03:18 Bjander has quit (Quit: Cellphone IRC... the worst kind...)
1477 2013-03-30 15:04:45 nikitis has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1478 2013-03-30 15:04:55 nikitis has joined
1479 2013-03-30 15:06:22 <MC-Droid> mike hearns continued advocacy on the forums that everyone should dump satoshi is grinding my gears
1480 2013-03-30 15:07:19 <MC-Droid> he also thinks blocks should be uncapped i believe
1481 2013-03-30 15:07:37 coolfengyu has joined
1482 2013-03-30 15:08:06 <Belxjander> why dump Satoshi?
1483 2013-03-30 15:08:29 <bergle> are there any utilities (besides perl and c) like perhaps something in bash, (trying to learn for the sake of learning) that will convert to the base58 that bitcoin uses?
1484 2013-03-30 15:08:40 <MC-Droid> cos of the blockchain
1485 2013-03-30 15:08:56 <bergle> convert an interger into the base58 format that is
1486 2013-03-30 15:09:04 <MC-Droid> i wonder if his time at google makes him think that centralised service is a ok
1487 2013-03-30 15:09:30 <nikitis> MC-Droid: i've been away from mining for awhile and I have an old wallet.dat file. Do I have to convert it to a .wallet?
1488 2013-03-30 15:09:47 mercerist has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1489 2013-03-30 15:10:38 <MC-Droid> nikitis: no
1490 2013-03-30 15:10:46 <MC-Droid> what the hell is a .wallet?
1491 2013-03-30 15:11:07 <MC-Droid> the format hasnt changed
1492 2013-03-30 15:11:24 <nikitis> i don't know, like i said I just came back, and there was some new armory program on bitcoin.org
1493 2013-03-30 15:11:41 <nikitis> i wanted to use it so it's not in the default directory for security purposes
1494 2013-03-30 15:12:07 <nikitis> but it only accepts .wallet
1495 2013-03-30 15:12:54 <MC-Droid> when people are mixing up alt clients for the "official" one you know something went wrong
1496 2013-03-30 15:13:13 <nikitis> does the official allow you to load a wallet.dat file?
1497 2013-03-30 15:13:17 iceblue has joined
1498 2013-03-30 15:13:22 <nikitis> import
1499 2013-03-30 15:13:23 <MC-Droid> afaik armoury cant import satoshi wallets yet
1500 2013-03-30 15:13:57 <nikitis> ok, well that's good to know
1501 2013-03-30 15:14:05 <MC-Droid> youd need to spin up a satoshi node then send the coins to armoury
1502 2013-03-30 15:14:16 ThomasV has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1503 2013-03-30 15:14:34 <MC-Droid> maybe you could extract the privkeys but thats a pain
1504 2013-03-30 15:14:37 jtimon has joined
1505 2013-03-30 15:14:46 McKay has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1506 2013-03-30 15:14:46 <nikitis> i'd rather keep my wallet.dat as it is
1507 2013-03-30 15:14:53 <nikitis> i'll ditch armory
1508 2013-03-30 15:15:05 <nikitis> but is there another application like armory that accepts wallet.dat's?
1509 2013-03-30 15:15:12 <MC-Droid> armoury is good for value storage
1510 2013-03-30 15:15:27 <MC-Droid> there is none to my knowledge
1511 2013-03-30 15:15:45 <nikitis> how do I tell my bitcoin-qt client to load my old wallet.dat?
1512 2013-03-30 15:16:00 McKay has joined
1513 2013-03-30 15:16:16 <MC-Droid> just dump (a copy) into the data folder and start it up
1514 2013-03-30 15:16:24 <nikitis> ok
1515 2013-03-30 15:16:34 <OneMiner> When I last used Armory it worked on top of the Satoshi client. Has that changed?
1516 2013-03-30 15:16:46 <nikitis> there wasn't a data folder in there, i'll make one
1517 2013-03-30 15:16:55 <nikitis> it does
1518 2013-03-30 15:17:01 <nikitis> but doesn't seem to grab wallet
1519 2013-03-30 15:17:17 <MC-Droid> the bitcoin directory in your home folder
1520 2013-03-30 15:17:25 <MC-Droid> .bitcoin or something
1521 2013-03-30 15:17:39 iceblue has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1522 2013-03-30 15:17:57 <OneMiner> You've got your wallet file backed up, right?
1523 2013-03-30 15:18:00 <nikitis> yes
1524 2013-03-30 15:18:04 <nikitis> not in default dir though
1525 2013-03-30 15:18:43 tsche has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1526 2013-03-30 15:19:24 <nikitis> the default client has change a lot since i last used it
1527 2013-03-30 15:19:41 keystroke has joined
1528 2013-03-30 15:19:42 keystroke has quit (Changing host)
1529 2013-03-30 15:19:42 keystroke has joined
1530 2013-03-30 15:20:27 <Luke-Jr> nikitis: there is no default client - maybe you're using a different one than before :P
1531 2013-03-30 15:20:49 <nikitis> like what is Sign-message?
1532 2013-03-30 15:21:12 <Luke-Jr> what it says
1533 2013-03-30 15:21:15 <MC-Droid> can prove address ownership
1534 2013-03-30 15:21:19 <MC-Droid> i think
1535 2013-03-30 15:21:25 <nikitis> that's new
1536 2013-03-30 15:21:30 <nikitis> you couldn't do that before
1537 2013-03-30 15:21:39 <MC-Droid> whats the last version you used
1538 2013-03-30 15:21:42 <Luke-Jr> Armory had something like that for a while
1539 2013-03-30 15:22:00 <nikitis> don't remember but it was before armory existed
1540 2013-03-30 15:22:12 <nikitis> like 1 year ago
1541 2013-03-30 15:22:27 <MC-Droid> wxwigets line
1542 2013-03-30 15:22:33 <nikitis> and encryption wasn't built into the bitcoin-qt client
1543 2013-03-30 15:22:38 * Luke-Jr wonders if Bitcoin-Qt is even 1 year old
1544 2013-03-30 15:22:46 <Luke-Jr> nikitis: encryption has *always* been builtin to Bitcoin-Qt
1545 2013-03-30 15:22:54 <Luke-Jr> nikitis: you were probably using wxBitcoin
1546 2013-03-30 15:23:00 <nikitis> maybe
1547 2013-03-30 15:23:03 <MC-Droid> spinning up a verifier node is now significantly faster
1548 2013-03-30 15:23:13 <MC-Droid> thats prob thr main advancement
1549 2013-03-30 15:23:26 wrabbit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1550 2013-03-30 15:23:29 <nikitis> so i have my old address stored
1551 2013-03-30 15:23:43 <nikitis> do i enter it into bitcoin-qt and sign it?
1552 2013-03-30 15:23:52 <Luke-Jr> â¦
1553 2013-03-30 15:23:56 <MC-Droid> wat
1554 2013-03-30 15:23:58 wrabbit has joined
1555 2013-03-30 15:24:12 <nikitis> my old bitcoin address
1556 2013-03-30 15:24:19 <Luke-Jr> nikitis: cool, so do I?
1557 2013-03-30 15:24:30 <nikitis> should i sign it?
1558 2013-03-30 15:24:33 <Luke-Jr> no
1559 2013-03-30 15:24:34 <MC-Droid> bro just put your wallet file in the directory and fire it up and wait
1560 2013-03-30 15:24:48 iceblue has joined
1561 2013-03-30 15:24:49 <Luke-Jr> nikitis: does Bitcoin-Qt not see your old wallet?
1562 2013-03-30 15:25:00 <nikitis> Luke-Jr: not yet no
1563 2013-03-30 15:25:08 <nikitis> it's downloading the block chain
1564 2013-03-30 15:25:12 <nikitis> wallet unsynced
1565 2013-03-30 15:25:17 <MC-Droid> it wont show your balance
1566 2013-03-30 15:25:18 <Luke-Jr> nikitis: same PC as you used wxBitcoin on?
1567 2013-03-30 15:25:27 <nikitis> Luke-Jr: yes but not same windows install
1568 2013-03-30 15:25:31 <MC-Droid> until it syncs past the point where you took ownership
1569 2013-03-30 15:25:37 <MC-Droid> so wait
1570 2013-03-30 15:25:40 <Luke-Jr> nikitis: oh, so you have a backup of your wallet somewhere
1571 2013-03-30 15:25:43 <nikitis> yes
1572 2013-03-30 15:25:53 <nikitis> i knew to do that back then
1573 2013-03-30 15:26:01 <Luke-Jr> nikitis: wxBitcoin never supported backups, so I hope so.. XD
1574 2013-03-30 15:26:14 Tasqa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1575 2013-03-30 15:26:18 <nikitis> i manually copied wallet.dat
1576 2013-03-30 15:26:21 <Luke-Jr> you'd have to shut it down cleanly and wait until it exited 100% before copying the file
1577 2013-03-30 15:26:28 tsche has joined
1578 2013-03-30 15:26:33 <Luke-Jr> copying it while it was running could make a corrupt one
1579 2013-03-30 15:26:33 <MC-Droid> yeah i hope you copied it out with bitcoin shut down
1580 2013-03-30 15:26:38 <nikitis> too late
1581 2013-03-30 15:26:51 <Luke-Jr> oh well, can't hurt to try
1582 2013-03-30 15:26:54 <nikitis> but i do have another backup
1583 2013-03-30 15:27:15 <Luke-Jr> nikitis: if you have the original directory entirely, you're pretty safe
1584 2013-03-30 15:27:23 <Luke-Jr> particularly including the database/ subdir
1585 2013-03-30 15:27:33 <nikitis> i only have wallet.dat file backed
1586 2013-03-30 15:27:39 <nikitis> i was told that's all i needed
1587 2013-03-30 15:27:54 <Luke-Jr> that's true only iff the client wasn't running at all
1588 2013-03-30 15:28:12 <redeeman> using the backup wallet function of bitcoin-qt should be safe though? i looked at the checksum of both wallet.dat and the backup, its identical
1589 2013-03-30 15:28:12 <kermit_> HI
1590 2013-03-30 15:28:15 <nikitis> well if it's corrupt i can restore from backup again
1591 2013-03-30 15:28:18 <kermit_> What is testnet3???
1592 2013-03-30 15:28:28 <nikitis> after it downloads the block chain
1593 2013-03-30 15:28:38 <Luke-Jr> redeeman: yes, the backup wallet function makes the disk file consistent when it copies
1594 2013-03-30 15:28:56 <kermit_> I was browsing through some source code and i saw that there are 2 blockchains
1595 2013-03-30 15:28:58 Tasqa has joined
1596 2013-03-30 15:29:02 <kermit_> "bitcoin" and "testnet"
1597 2013-03-30 15:29:04 <Luke-Jr> kermit_: the current test network
1598 2013-03-30 15:29:12 iceblue has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1599 2013-03-30 15:29:32 coolfengyu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1600 2013-03-30 15:30:04 iceblue has joined
1601 2013-03-30 15:30:04 <MC-Droid> testnet is an alternate universe where we stuff the chain with furry porn and try to break it deliberately
1602 2013-03-30 15:30:32 <kermit_> thanks,..., Luke-Jr and MC-Droid
1603 2013-03-30 15:31:56 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1604 2013-03-30 15:32:08 meLon has joined
1605 2013-03-30 15:32:41 <lianj> these aren't the droids you're looking for
1606 2013-03-30 15:33:07 <nikitis> it loaded my wallet.dat now
1607 2013-03-30 15:33:29 <nikitis> my transactions just popped up
1608 2013-03-30 15:33:29 <MC-Droid> whats your block count
1609 2013-03-30 15:33:49 <nikitis> it's at 80200 left to download
1610 2013-03-30 15:34:33 <Luke-Jr> nikitis: wise to wait until it's done
1611 2013-03-30 15:34:37 <nikitis> is that because i synced to it it showed up
1612 2013-03-30 15:35:02 <nikitis> as in once i downloaded my blocks
1613 2013-03-30 15:35:08 <Luke-Jr> more or less
1614 2013-03-30 15:35:11 <nikitis> that the transaction came from
1615 2013-03-30 15:35:12 <nikitis> k
1616 2013-03-30 15:35:24 <nikitis> Luke-Jr: i stopped it
1617 2013-03-30 15:35:27 <MC-Droid> its replaying the chain from the start and just tripped over the point in time the coins moved to your keys
1618 2013-03-30 15:35:30 <nikitis> then copied from backup again
1619 2013-03-30 15:35:34 <Luke-Jr> ?
1620 2013-03-30 15:35:38 <nikitis> right MC-Droid
1621 2013-03-30 15:35:39 <Luke-Jr> sounded fine to me
1622 2013-03-30 15:35:53 <nikitis> i don't have much
1623 2013-03-30 15:35:59 <nikitis> only 0.56 BTC
1624 2013-03-30 15:36:04 <MC-Droid> just leave it sync stop messing with it
1625 2013-03-30 15:36:16 <nikitis> i am
1626 2013-03-30 15:36:29 <MC-Droid> thats still about fiddy dolla today
1627 2013-03-30 15:36:56 <nikitis> yeah, i probably spent that in electricity getting it though
1628 2013-03-30 15:37:01 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1629 2013-03-30 15:37:09 iceblue has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1630 2013-03-30 15:37:14 <MC-Droid> if you were cpu mining yes
1631 2013-03-30 15:37:24 <nikitis> gpu
1632 2013-03-30 15:37:29 <nikitis> it was the new thing
1633 2013-03-30 15:37:32 <nikitis> only commandline options available
1634 2013-03-30 15:37:38 <nikitis> now i see there's gui miners
1635 2013-03-30 15:37:52 <Luke-Jr> not really. one GUI miner that sucks
1636 2013-03-30 15:38:00 <MC-Droid> considering the price since then youre in profit
1637 2013-03-30 15:38:04 <Luke-Jr> and if you only got 0.56 BTC from GPU mining, you were late to the game XD
1638 2013-03-30 15:38:15 <nikitis> i'm buying an asic soon though
1639 2013-03-30 15:38:27 <nikitis> it was only $8 back then
1640 2013-03-30 15:38:35 <nikitis> increased 10 times
1641 2013-03-30 15:38:44 <Luke-Jr> if you didn't buy yet, you're late to the ASIC game too XD
1642 2013-03-30 15:38:57 <nikitis> not that late
1643 2013-03-30 15:39:03 <nikitis> most of them aren't even released yet
1644 2013-03-30 15:39:03 <Luke-Jr> yes that late
1645 2013-03-30 15:39:09 <Luke-Jr> ASICs ordered today won't ship until fall
1646 2013-03-30 15:39:12 <Luke-Jr> summer at the earliest
1647 2013-03-30 15:39:24 <nikitis> i may build my own
1648 2013-03-30 15:39:32 <nikitis> i work with small boards
1649 2013-03-30 15:39:32 <Luke-Jr> LOLOL
1650 2013-03-30 15:39:39 <nikitis> order the asic chip and hand solder
1651 2013-03-30 15:39:50 <MC-Droid> order from whom?
1652 2013-03-30 15:39:51 <nikitis> i can generate gerbers
1653 2013-03-30 15:39:59 <nikitis> the manufacturer
1654 2013-03-30 15:40:08 <Luke-Jr> none of the ASIC vendors are selling mere chips
1655 2013-03-30 15:40:10 <MC-Droid> wot manufacturer
1656 2013-03-30 15:40:21 stretchwarren has joined
1657 2013-03-30 15:40:22 <nikitis> have you tried Luke-Jr ?
1658 2013-03-30 15:40:28 coolfengyu has joined
1659 2013-03-30 15:40:43 <MC-Droid> double sha256 hashers are not off the shelf parts
1660 2013-03-30 15:40:43 <nikitis> MC-Droid: some manufacturer is making asic chips somewhere
1661 2013-03-30 15:40:43 blaeks has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1662 2013-03-30 15:40:49 <Luke-Jr> nikitis: Dave told me about someone who did
1663 2013-03-30 15:41:07 <Luke-Jr> MC-Droid: well, they are, but not useful for mining
1664 2013-03-30 15:41:30 <HM> lol
1665 2013-03-30 15:41:37 <nikitis> granted i'd have to design a board to handle voltage capacitance etc
1666 2013-03-30 15:41:41 <MC-Droid> maybe he means fpga
1667 2013-03-30 15:41:43 <nikitis> of the chip
1668 2013-03-30 15:41:46 <nikitis> and write my own interface for it
1669 2013-03-30 15:41:52 <nikitis> no asic
1670 2013-03-30 15:42:02 <Luke-Jr> nikitis: you can't get ASIC chips.
1671 2013-03-30 15:42:13 <nikitis> i dunno, i haven't tried
1672 2013-03-30 15:42:17 <MC-Droid> do you know what an asic is
1673 2013-03-30 15:42:20 <nikitis> there's always back doors
1674 2013-03-30 15:42:36 <nikitis> specific integrated circuit
1675 2013-03-30 15:42:41 <nikitis> designed for this one purpose
1676 2013-03-30 15:42:53 <Luke-Jr> nikitis: dude, of the two companies, one has like 3 employees, and the other has maybe 30
1677 2013-03-30 15:43:02 <nikitis> so i contact them directly
1678 2013-03-30 15:43:09 <Luke-Jr> sigh
1679 2013-03-30 15:43:09 <MC-Droid> the only guys making bitcoin chips send thier design to a foundry to have it done
1680 2013-03-30 15:43:12 <Graet> lol
1681 2013-03-30 15:43:29 <MC-Droid> if you can buy asics then you ARE the manufacturer breh
1682 2013-03-30 15:44:19 <MC-Droid> thyere not gonna sell you bare chips
1683 2013-03-30 15:44:34 <nikitis> have they stated such?
1684 2013-03-30 15:44:43 <nikitis> never know till you try
1685 2013-03-30 15:44:43 <MC-Droid> what asics does that asicminer outfit use?
1686 2013-03-30 15:44:44 <Graet> yes
1687 2013-03-30 15:45:00 <nikitis> so someone has asked
1688 2013-03-30 15:45:04 <nikitis> and they said no
1689 2013-03-30 15:45:09 <Graet> no they posted
1690 2013-03-30 15:45:15 <nikitis> oh ok
1691 2013-03-30 15:45:18 <nikitis> well then
1692 2013-03-30 15:45:18 <Graet> that they wouldnt be, ages ago
1693 2013-03-30 15:45:25 <Belxjander> oh ffs... ASICs are made to the design spec... you don't buy ASICs unprogrammed... they come pre-programmed out of the fab...
1694 2013-03-30 15:45:27 <Graet> but by all means ask
1695 2013-03-30 15:45:30 <nikitis> guess that idea is no longer
1696 2013-03-30 15:45:41 <Belxjander> MC-Droid: ASICminer will be using ASICminer ASICs afaik
1697 2013-03-30 15:46:20 <nikitis> i know with chips like this it's a race against companies
1698 2013-03-30 15:46:22 fabiux has joined
1699 2013-03-30 15:46:32 <nikitis> I designed a modchip for the PS3
1700 2013-03-30 15:46:52 <MC-Droid> they really made their own chips?
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1702 2013-03-30 15:47:01 <MC-Droid> and theyre keeping them in house?
1703 2013-03-30 15:47:07 <nikitis> i had to order a xilinx chip and we designed our own board around it
1704 2013-03-30 15:47:12 <MC-Droid> god dammit my jimmies
1705 2013-03-30 15:47:22 <MC-Droid> will never know peace from this rustling
1706 2013-03-30 15:47:33 <nikitis> got two prototypes in two ps3's now
1707 2013-03-30 15:47:37 <nikitis> working
1708 2013-03-30 15:47:40 <kermit_> Belxjander: you own an ASIC?
1709 2013-03-30 15:47:48 <nikitis> most people have their chips designed in china somewhere
1710 2013-03-30 15:47:58 <nikitis> or they design and china manufactures them
1711 2013-03-30 15:48:13 <nikitis> sometimes you can order from china bypassing them
1712 2013-03-30 15:48:19 <nikitis> china loves to counterfiet
1713 2013-03-30 15:48:23 <Belxjander> kermit_: no... but I do have an FPGA
1714 2013-03-30 15:48:25 <nikitis> or copy ideas
1715 2013-03-30 15:48:38 <nikitis> and they will sell it to you
1716 2013-03-30 15:48:42 <nikitis> just gotta know who they use
1717 2013-03-30 15:48:58 <MC-Droid> theyre using tsmc i think
1718 2013-03-30 15:49:19 <nikitis> we had a manufacturer from china try to extort us on our ps3 modchip design
1719 2013-03-30 15:49:35 <nikitis> they wanted 10,000 USD or our design was going public
1720 2013-03-30 15:49:37 <Belxjander> nikitis: well if I can get you the label off the back of the FPGA in my motherboard... would you be able to make a bitstream to load to it?
1721 2013-03-30 15:49:46 <MC-Droid> since when can you chips a ps3
1722 2013-03-30 15:50:01 <Belxjander> nikitis: I can write the AmigaOS specific wrapper to talk to the FPGA once it has a bitstream loaded no problem
1723 2013-03-30 15:50:06 <nikitis> MC-Droid: awhile now, using 3 things 4 if you count my prototype
1724 2013-03-30 15:50:13 <nikitis> teensy development board works
1725 2013-03-30 15:50:22 <nikitis> progskeet
1726 2013-03-30 15:50:28 <MC-Droid> id buy one for a media centre
1727 2013-03-30 15:50:31 <nikitis> or E3 chip
1728 2013-03-30 15:50:34 <redeeman> how did you get around them trying to scam you?
1729 2013-03-30 15:50:48 <nikitis> redeeman: it wasn't a finished product
1730 2013-03-30 15:50:56 <nikitis> we just wanted prototypes
1731 2013-03-30 15:51:04 <nikitis> so we told them do it
1732 2013-03-30 15:51:19 <nikitis> and went with a different manufacturer
1733 2013-03-30 15:51:35 <nikitis> it never got released
1734 2013-03-30 15:51:41 <nikitis> even with the threat
1735 2013-03-30 15:51:59 <MC-Droid> china pretty shady with dat tech IP
1736 2013-03-30 15:52:07 <nikitis> ^
1737 2013-03-30 15:52:27 <nikitis> if you want to chip your PS3 i recommend teensy if it's a slim or nor
1738 2013-03-30 15:52:50 <nikitis> if it's older ps3 with nands, use progskeet, but you better have extremely skilled hands as you have to solder to the pins
1739 2013-03-30 15:53:17 <MC-Droid> i got a nice temp controlled iron
1740 2013-03-30 15:53:23 <MC-Droid> but its broke
1741 2013-03-30 15:53:31 <MC-Droid> and i need an iron to fix it
1742 2013-03-30 15:53:34 <nikitis> pins are small
1743 2013-03-30 15:53:34 <nikitis> and close
1744 2013-03-30 15:53:38 <MC-Droid> the irony broke my will
1745 2013-03-30 15:53:41 <nikitis> very difficult
1746 2013-03-30 15:53:59 <nikitis> i'm good with soldering and i can't do it
1747 2013-03-30 15:53:59 <sam> MC-Droid: be prepared to solder about 50 wires http://people.zoy.org/~sam/ps3-fini.png
1748 2013-03-30 15:54:29 <nikitis> sam: that's a nor, easy install
1749 2013-03-30 15:54:37 <nikitis> nands are harder
1750 2013-03-30 15:54:42 <MC-Droid> na my iron cant do smt work
1751 2013-03-30 15:54:47 <sam> oh
1752 2013-03-30 15:54:50 <MC-Droid> neither can i prob
1753 2013-03-30 15:55:21 ThomasV has joined
1754 2013-03-30 15:56:48 <MC-Droid> ive still got thru hole caps to replace on my server after theyve bulged again
1755 2013-03-30 15:56:56 <MC-Droid> not getting round to it
1756 2013-03-30 15:57:00 <MC-Droid> also broken iron
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1825 2013-03-30 17:23:14 <MC-Droid> is there an estimate for how long an ip address would be floating around the network long after its node is gone
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1831 2013-03-30 17:28:49 <nikitis> Anyone know why GUIminer for POC drops mhashs down to like 1 Mh from 100?
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1878 2013-03-30 18:17:13 <muhoo> sam: lol, wtf is that?
1879 2013-03-30 18:17:43 <muhoo> looks like crabgrass growing out of control.
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1882 2013-03-30 18:23:43 <Darin> anyone here have a decent understanding of how miners prioritize transactions?
1883 2013-03-30 18:24:20 <sipa> gmaxwell and gavinandresen probably know that code best
1884 2013-03-30 18:25:12 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1886 2013-03-30 18:27:28 <Luke-Jr> Darin: depends on the miner
1887 2013-03-30 18:27:55 <Darin> luke-jr is there some guidelines they follow, or is it pretty diverse
1888 2013-03-30 18:28:05 <Garmine> is this the right place to ask about translations?
1889 2013-03-30 18:28:13 <Luke-Jr> Darin: generally, older outputs being consumed get higher priority, as well as higher values
1890 2013-03-30 18:28:26 <Luke-Jr> Darin: it's mainly designed to stop flooding attacks right now
1891 2013-03-30 18:29:00 <Darin> luke-jr: gotcha
1892 2013-03-30 18:29:07 <Darin> luke-jr: thanks for your help
1893 2013-03-30 18:29:20 <gmaxwell> uh. free transactions are normally prioritized by priority as luke describes, w/ fee transactions are prioritized by fee per byte.
1894 2013-03-30 18:29:46 coolfengyu has joined
1895 2013-03-30 18:30:21 <Darin> gmaxwell: so there is a scenario where the fee can determine a prioritization on a double spend attempt?
1896 2013-03-30 18:30:42 <Luke-Jr> Darin: not really, as no node software allow double-spends based on fee
1897 2013-03-30 18:30:57 <Darin> luke-jr: do you see that ever changing?
1898 2013-03-30 18:31:35 <Luke-Jr> Darin: I can't see a reason why it should
1899 2013-03-30 18:31:38 <sipa> i hope not, but from a rational miner's self interest there will likely be some price at which he would accept a double spend
1900 2013-03-30 18:32:16 <sipa> it may be very bad for the trustability of the network though, so doing this may be cuttig in their own flesh on the long term
1901 2013-03-30 18:32:19 <gmaxwell> Darin: in any publically distributed software all priortization happens after excluding any double spends.
1902 2013-03-30 18:32:21 <Luke-Jr> sipa: that self-interest also should be opposed to it because it devalues their coins value
1903 2013-03-30 18:32:29 <gmaxwell> Darin: only the earliest spend is accepted.
1904 2013-03-30 18:32:38 <Darin> interesting
1905 2013-03-30 18:32:39 <Darin> ok
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1907 2013-03-30 18:33:03 <sipa> Luke-Jr: agree, but the costs/venefits of that are very fuzzy so perhaps hard to reason about
1908 2013-03-30 18:33:04 <gmaxwell> of course, if we start forgetting low priority/old stuff in the mempool, then that won't be true anymore.
1909 2013-03-30 18:33:11 <redeeman> was wondering about that myself, but i guessed the "a node shouldnt distribute a transaction that seems fishy" to mean it would not consider any further(double) spends, no matter the fee, to be legitimate
1910 2013-03-30 18:33:33 <redeeman> glad to hear this is indeed how it works
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1917 2013-03-30 18:34:27 <sam> muhoo: it's my hax0red PS3 :)
1918 2013-03-30 18:34:34 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: the problem there is that you ask someone to accept speculative future ecosystem advantage over $money$Right$now$! And then you mix in that the people making these decisions are not the ones with huge sunk hardware costs that would be endangered.
1919 2013-03-30 18:34:46 <Luke-Jr> >_<
1920 2013-03-30 18:34:51 <gmaxwell> so I don't think its obvious what will happen in the future.
1921 2013-03-30 18:35:11 <gmaxwell> I hope people are smart and don't undermine the system but I can't say with confidence that they won't.
1922 2013-03-30 18:36:30 <Darin> is there any technical problem doing this: having listeners connected to most larger nodes, listening for a specific transaction with the appropriate fee. It see's the transaction broadcasted, the transaction unlikely won't be double spent
1923 2013-03-30 18:36:49 <Luke-Jr> Darin: yes, it would be very easy to double-spend that
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1926 2013-03-30 18:37:46 <python-n00b> -Hello?
1927 2013-03-30 18:37:46 <Darin> luke-jr: let's say you were able to connect to 99% of the nodes, would that still be the case?
1928 2013-03-30 18:37:54 <Luke-Jr> Darin: yes
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1930 2013-03-30 18:38:04 <python-n00b> i just cann not connect with python and my bitcoin client?
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1932 2013-03-30 18:38:42 <Darin> luke-jr: something that could be adjusted for risk managed⦠or simply too many holes for a double spend
1933 2013-03-30 18:38:47 <gmaxwell> Darin: connecting to more nodes doesn't solve double spends. A transaction can be double spent without ever being observed on the public network.
1934 2013-03-30 18:38:51 <python-n00b> HERE is nothing possible to download: http://json-rpc.org/wiki/python-json-rpc and this one https://github.com/jgarzik/python-bitcoinrpc is not possible to install...
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1938 2013-03-30 18:40:25 <python-n00b> no one wants to help?
1939 2013-03-30 18:40:45 <bitnumus> hi all, am i right in saying its not possible to view 'balance' along with transactions ?
1940 2013-03-30 18:40:54 <bitnumus> resulting balances after each transaction
1941 2013-03-30 18:41:42 <Luke-Jr> bitnumus: it should be possible
1942 2013-03-30 18:41:55 <bitnumus> it would be nice to know what my balance was when i made a transaction etc
1943 2013-03-30 18:42:00 <bitnumus> not with satoshi client then ?
1944 2013-03-30 18:42:06 <Luke-Jr> it's not implemented
1945 2013-03-30 18:42:10 <bitnumus> darn
1946 2013-03-30 18:42:20 <bitnumus> for any sort of accounting its needed
1947 2013-03-30 18:42:25 <sipa> bitnumus: feel free to open an issue
1948 2013-03-30 18:42:40 has quit (Clown|!~clown@unaffiliated/clown/x-0272709|)
1949 2013-03-30 18:42:41 <bitnumus> its not really an issue i guess, moreover a feature
1950 2013-03-30 18:42:47 <wumpus> wasn't the problem that transactions don't have a fixed order?
1951 2013-03-30 18:43:02 <bitnumus> no dates stored in blockchain ?
1952 2013-03-30 18:43:03 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: they do now
1953 2013-03-30 18:43:08 <wumpus> you're not exactly the first to propose this
1954 2013-03-30 18:43:18 <Luke-Jr> sortof
1955 2013-03-30 18:43:24 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: ok, cool, so now it should be possible then
1956 2013-03-30 18:43:31 <sipa> wumpus: even if not, only non-confirmed transactions' internal order can change
1957 2013-03-30 18:43:42 <sipa> and only the top-N can be reverted
1958 2013-03-30 18:43:58 <Luke-Jr> sipa: only if the user does a salvagewallet
1959 2013-03-30 18:44:15 <Luke-Jr> doesn't do*
1960 2013-03-30 18:44:31 <sipa> Luke-Jr: what if you have 2 non-confirmed ones, and the latest of them makes it into a block flbefore the other?
1961 2013-03-30 18:44:41 <Luke-Jr> sipa: the order remains the same
1962 2013-03-30 18:44:48 <wumpus> but indeed, as soon as the transactions are in the block chain they have a fixed order
1963 2013-03-30 18:44:55 <wumpus> barring reorganizations etc
1964 2013-03-30 18:45:14 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: not necessarily the order used by the client
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1966 2013-03-30 18:45:16 <sipa> Luke-Jr: what if the other is doublespent?
1967 2013-03-30 18:45:29 <Luke-Jr> sipa: double spending is not supported at all by the client..
1968 2013-03-30 18:45:40 <python-n00b> How much Keys do the Bitcoin-qt software support?
1969 2013-03-30 18:45:45 <sipa> wumpus: thebonly real accounting is making a ledger of changes, rather than actual bitcoin transactions
1970 2013-03-30 18:45:51 <andytoshi> python-n00b: finite but unbounded
1971 2013-03-30 18:46:02 <python-n00b> for example 1000000000 adress??
1972 2013-03-30 18:46:36 <andytoshi> python-n00b: the software supports it, but it may be very slow
1973 2013-03-30 18:46:39 <sipa> wumpus: i.e. add a +N ledger entry the moment you get 6 confirms on a transaction, and do a counteracting -N one if it gets reorged
1974 2013-03-30 18:46:46 <andytoshi> i'm not sure if there are any benchmarks published..
1975 2013-03-30 18:46:55 <sipa> python-n00b: 10000's is certainly doable
1976 2013-03-30 18:47:08 talengix has joined
1977 2013-03-30 18:47:15 safra has joined
1978 2013-03-30 18:47:29 <wumpus> sipa: indeed, so the ledger would be a separate thing from the transaction list
1979 2013-03-30 18:47:48 <wumpus> and would have to be stored in the wallet separately
1980 2013-03-30 18:47:54 <sipa> indeed
1981 2013-03-30 18:48:05 <sipa> but it would be guaranteed to be append-only
1982 2013-03-30 18:48:07 <wumpus> bitnumus: so, now you understand why it's non-trivial
1983 2013-03-30 18:48:20 <wumpus> it's far from simply adding a column
1984 2013-03-30 18:48:31 <python-n00b> oh
1985 2013-03-30 18:48:43 <python-n00b> is it possible to search in the blockchain with python?
1986 2013-03-30 18:48:58 <andytoshi> python-n00b: my guess would be that if you need more than 100k addresses, you should be rolling your own wallet
1987 2013-03-30 18:49:36 <python-n00b> how?
1988 2013-03-30 18:50:45 <wumpus> there is even an issue about it already: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/935
1989 2013-03-30 18:50:55 <python-n00b> i must just check the balance of some adresses.... but i dont want to use any online service like blockchain.info ...
1990 2013-03-30 18:51:15 <andytoshi> python-n00b: no, all the information is available from bitcoind
1991 2013-03-30 18:51:41 <python-n00b> lol but i cannot connect with json-rpc
1992 2013-03-30 18:51:54 Stimpy has joined
1993 2013-03-30 18:52:21 <andytoshi> oh?
1994 2013-03-30 18:52:50 <python-n00b> i tried with https://de.bitcoin.it/wiki/API-Referenz_(JSON-RPC)
1995 2013-03-30 18:53:29 <sipa> what fails?
1996 2013-03-30 18:53:30 <python-n00b> but i cant install it
1997 2013-03-30 18:53:37 <python-n00b> i make a screen shot
1998 2013-03-30 18:53:39 <sipa> what do you need to install?
1999 2013-03-30 18:54:10 <python-n00b> https://github.com/jgarzik/python-bitcoinrpc
2000 2013-03-30 18:54:25 <python-n00b> or?
2001 2013-03-30 18:54:48 <sipa> ok
2002 2013-03-30 18:55:12 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2003 2013-03-30 18:55:19 Bjander has joined
2004 2013-03-30 18:56:06 <andytoshi> python-n00b: can you post on pastebin or something what goes wrong?
2005 2013-03-30 18:56:17 <gmaxwell> python-n00b: you shouldn't have to install it to use it.
2006 2013-03-30 18:56:21 <python-n00b> so i do an .bat with // setup.py install
2007 2013-03-30 18:56:29 <python-n00b> how do i use it=
2008 2013-03-30 18:56:31 <python-n00b> ?
2009 2013-03-30 18:56:57 <sipa> perhaps a stupid question, based on your nick, but do you know python?
2010 2013-03-30 18:57:21 <python-n00b> from jsonrpc import ServiceProxy
2011 2013-03-30 18:57:30 <python-n00b> i i need that jsonrpc ..
2012 2013-03-30 18:57:40 <python-n00b> i know a bit ^^
2013 2013-03-30 18:57:53 <python-n00b> but i thought i must install that packed
2014 2013-03-30 18:58:02 <python-n00b> or how should i use it ?
2015 2013-03-30 18:59:19 HiWEB has joined
2016 2013-03-30 18:59:26 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
2017 2013-03-30 18:59:45 <redeeman> the listtransactions apicall, i must specify account to specify count/from, is it okay to assume "*" is okay for account to match ALL? (it appears to work)
2018 2013-03-30 19:00:44 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2019 2013-03-30 19:01:21 <sipa> redeeman: indeed
2020 2013-03-30 19:01:32 <redeeman> great, thanks
2021 2013-03-30 19:01:58 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2022 2013-03-30 19:02:08 <muhoo> bitnumus: "balance" is kind of a different concept in bitcoin than in other systems. you have unspent outputs. your "wallet" calculates your balance by adding up the unspent outpts for which you have the private keys in that wallet.
2023 2013-03-30 19:02:21 <muhoo> oh, damn, scrollback error
2024 2013-03-30 19:02:44 <muhoo> and i may not even have explained that right anyway :-/
2025 2013-03-30 19:02:51 * muhoo goes away for a while
2026 2013-03-30 19:03:17 mercerist has joined
2027 2013-03-30 19:03:29 <python-n00b> i am to nooby?
2028 2013-03-30 19:03:57 <python-n00b> i didnt get it how the fuck do i connect with the bitcoin client in server mode??
2029 2013-03-30 19:04:06 <BlueMatt> its a saturday, dont expect much...
2030 2013-03-30 19:04:56 <python-n00b> ok then a new idea
2031 2013-03-30 19:05:23 <python-n00b> is it possible to search with a python skrypt in the blockchain on my computer?
2032 2013-03-30 19:06:49 <BlueMatt> what are you trying to do?
2033 2013-03-30 19:06:57 <BlueMatt> search the chain for what?
2034 2013-03-30 19:07:10 <python-n00b> for an adress for exampel
2035 2013-03-30 19:07:19 <BlueMatt> sure you could do that
2036 2013-03-30 19:07:33 <python-n00b> how is the blockchain build ? how can i read it ?
2037 2013-03-30 19:07:42 <sipa> python-n00b: for this, you really don't want to
2038 2013-03-30 19:07:57 <sipa> python-n00b: addresses and balances are really a client-side thing, provided by a wallet abstraction
2039 2013-03-30 19:08:12 <sipa> python-n00b: the block chain's transactions are much more low-level, and harder to deal with
2040 2013-03-30 19:08:32 <sipa> python-n00b: you just need the jsonrpc package, i suppose - no idea where to get it, though
2041 2013-03-30 19:08:52 <python-n00b> oh they contain the bitcoins as a hash for example ?? so not as amount :/
2042 2013-03-30 19:08:57 daemon has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2043 2013-03-30 19:09:21 <sipa> python-n00b: addresses are really just part of the authentication system in bitcoin (which is translated to scripts in the block chain)
2044 2013-03-30 19:09:23 <python-n00b> @@sipa jup i dont know where i get it .. or how to instll it
2045 2013-03-30 19:09:37 <sipa> python-n00b: transactions consume coins and produce coins, and assign those coins to scripts
2046 2013-03-30 19:09:40 <python-n00b> @sipa i understand thx
2047 2013-03-30 19:09:47 <sipa> python-n00b: they don't deal directly with balances
2048 2013-03-30 19:10:12 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2049 2013-03-30 19:10:18 <python-n00b> ok
2050 2013-03-30 19:10:19 Bjander has joined
2051 2013-03-30 19:10:27 <python-n00b> and how can i use the python rpc api?
2052 2013-03-30 19:10:43 <sipa> you'll need to know python for that
2053 2013-03-30 19:10:46 <Stimpy> Python-noob-Most people interface to bitcoinds RPC interface (e.g python scripts). Interrogating the blockchain file is much more work
2054 2013-03-30 19:11:10 zooko has joined
2055 2013-03-30 19:11:24 coolfengyu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2056 2013-03-30 19:11:53 <Stimpy> python-n00b-There are examples of interfacing to the RPC API in the contrib section on the Git repo
2057 2013-03-30 19:12:06 <sipa> Stimpy: he can't get the jsonrpc package installed
2058 2013-03-30 19:12:19 <python-n00b> :/
2059 2013-03-30 19:12:38 <Stimpy> sipa- Linux?
2060 2013-03-30 19:12:40 asuk has joined
2061 2013-03-30 19:12:44 <python-n00b> Windoof
2062 2013-03-30 19:12:47 <python-n00b> *Windows
2063 2013-03-30 19:13:39 daemon has joined
2064 2013-03-30 19:14:59 turboroot has joined
2065 2013-03-30 19:15:03 <python-n00b> ok i serach tomorrow for an solution
2066 2013-03-30 19:15:08 <python-n00b> thx 4 help
2067 2013-03-30 19:15:10 <python-n00b> b
2068 2013-03-30 19:15:14 python-n00b has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2069 2013-03-30 19:15:27 <turboroot> how does the satoshi client encode the signature from message signing?
2070 2013-03-30 19:15:40 <sipa> turboroot: custom format
2071 2013-03-30 19:16:18 Scaglietti has joined
2072 2013-03-30 19:16:34 Phraust has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2073 2013-03-30 19:16:40 <turboroot> sipa: thanks! i was wondering why armory did not produce a working sig for gribble
2074 2013-03-30 19:16:57 <sipa> turboroot: [header byte] + [R as 32-byte big-endian] + [S as 32-byte big-endian]
2075 2013-03-30 19:17:08 <sipa> armory uses another format, afaik
2076 2013-03-30 19:17:41 coolfengyu has joined
2077 2013-03-30 19:18:19 Phraust has joined
2078 2013-03-30 19:18:29 <BlueMatt> TD: re: bitcoinj wallet format: can you discuss this with sipa/others because we can probably get a universal wallet format going
2079 2013-03-30 19:18:48 <BlueMatt> I know sipa has thought a bit about append-only plaintext wallets
2080 2013-03-30 19:19:27 has joined
2081 2013-03-30 19:19:27 has quit (Clown|!~clown@static-87-79-93-140.netcologne.de|Changing host)
2082 2013-03-30 19:19:27 has joined
2083 2013-03-30 19:20:03 g0hww has joined
2084 2013-03-30 19:20:35 <sipa> BlueMatt: i'm no fan of a universal format; i think it will lead to unexpected compatibility issues when clients have subtly different ideas of what a wallet is
2085 2013-03-30 19:20:46 <sipa> BlueMatt: i am a fan of a common wallet interchange format, though
2086 2013-03-30 19:20:54 daemon has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2087 2013-03-30 19:20:59 <Stimpy> Does the qt-client linearly download missing blocks or does it request them in a bittorrent like manner?
2088 2013-03-30 19:21:15 <sipa> linearly
2089 2013-03-30 19:21:24 <sipa> changing that is really hard for now
2090 2013-03-30 19:21:44 <Stimpy> sipa-from a single client?
2091 2013-03-30 19:21:49 <sipa> yes and no
2092 2013-03-30 19:21:59 <sipa> synchronizing is from a single peer
2093 2013-03-30 19:22:07 <Stimpy> sipa-lol
2094 2013-03-30 19:22:09 asuk has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
2095 2013-03-30 19:22:13 <BlueMatt> sipa: so...extensible wallet format that allows clients to add interesting information that others dont support
2096 2013-03-30 19:22:21 <sipa> BlueMatt: "meh"
2097 2013-03-30 19:22:50 <TD> the format i proposed isn't really append only
2098 2013-03-30 19:22:55 <TD> and i'm still unconvinced by it myself
2099 2013-03-30 19:23:04 merceris_ has joined
2100 2013-03-30 19:23:19 <TD> just using sqlite or some other db might be the real way to go in the end. i am just not looking forward to rewriting the wallet code to be suitable for a db
2101 2013-03-30 19:23:47 <Stimpy> sipa-is bitorrent like behaviour on the roadmap?
2102 2013-03-30 19:24:08 <sipa> Stimpy: the hard part is that you don't know which blocks to download, basically until you download them
2103 2013-03-30 19:24:30 <TD> optimizing chain download is the wrong thing to work on, imo
2104 2013-03-30 19:24:46 <TD> people who who don't want a long download shouldn't run bitcoin-qt/d
2105 2013-03-30 19:25:02 Scaglietti has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2106 2013-03-30 19:25:04 <sipa> Stimpy: the solution is first synchronizing headers, and then (potentially in parallel) download the missing blocks along the known best chain
2107 2013-03-30 19:25:12 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2108 2013-03-30 19:25:19 Bjander has joined
2109 2013-03-30 19:25:20 Scaglietti has joined
2110 2013-03-30 19:25:22 <sipa> TD: still, headers-first sync has many advantages that are useful just on themself, imho
2111 2013-03-30 19:25:32 <TD> like?
2112 2013-03-30 19:25:33 <sipa> the current mechanism is just broken, even if it's not a priority
2113 2013-03-30 19:26:03 <gmaxwell> Doing so will also prepare the reference client from being able to bootstrap as SPV.
2114 2013-03-30 19:26:17 mercerist has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2115 2013-03-30 19:26:21 <gmaxwell> TD: the current behavior gets stuck, it's not reliable.
2116 2013-03-30 19:26:34 <sipa> TD: not needing checkpoints
2117 2013-03-30 19:26:37 <Stimpy> sipa-well.The blockchain is indexed. So broadcasting a have for the index and getting those with a higher index would do it?
2118 2013-03-30 19:27:21 Scaglietti has quit (Client Quit)
2119 2013-03-30 19:27:23 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: are we actually going to implement bitcoind bootstrapping as spv?
2120 2013-03-30 19:27:38 <sipa> i certainly want headers-first
2121 2013-03-30 19:27:40 Scaglietti has joined
2122 2013-03-30 19:27:44 <sipa> that doesn't mean SPV as such
2123 2013-03-30 19:27:45 daemon has joined
2124 2013-03-30 19:27:53 <sipa> but it's certainly a step in that direction
2125 2013-03-30 19:27:53 Guest78233 has joined
2126 2013-03-30 19:28:25 <BlueMatt> bitcoinj can do that and can upgrade to full node if necessary already...I think moving bitcoind towards "the mining/full node non-wallet client" is the "right way"tm
2127 2013-03-30 19:28:27 <TD> i don't see why it removes the needs for checkpoints
2128 2013-03-30 19:28:31 <BlueMatt> headers-first sure, but...
2129 2013-03-30 19:28:45 <gmaxwell> TD: Then perhaps you don't understand why we have them?
2130 2013-03-30 19:29:01 <sipa> TD: well, it removes checkpoints as a performance mechanism; it doesn't change the chain-lock-in (which is bad, imho)
2131 2013-03-30 19:29:20 <sipa> TD: as you can just make it skip signature checks once they're buried deep enough
2132 2013-03-30 19:29:32 <sipa> as you've validated the PoW on top, before doing the sig checks
2133 2013-03-30 19:29:54 merceris_ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2134 2013-03-30 19:30:31 <BlueMatt> sig checks dont take as long as you'd think, too, bitcoinj checks all sigs and can sync fully (minus oom bugs at >220k) on tmpfs in only a few hours
2135 2013-03-30 19:30:43 <gmaxwell> 0_o
2136 2013-03-30 19:30:46 <TD> sipa: right. the safety measure is still there
2137 2013-03-30 19:30:48 <BlueMatt> (with native sigchecks)
2138 2013-03-30 19:31:00 <sipa> BlueMatt: agree, i'd like to see bitcoind as full-node and without a wallet, and an SPV client integrated/on top of it
2139 2013-03-30 19:31:05 <TD> so i don't think they should be removed
2140 2013-03-30 19:31:09 <TD> defence in depth and all that
2141 2013-03-30 19:31:21 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: they are most of our 1 hour syncup time on my laptop.
2142 2013-03-30 19:31:43 <sipa> if we don't need them for performance, i'd like to see them gone entirely; they're really ugly from a decentralization point of view
2143 2013-03-30 19:31:57 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: maybe sipa's sigchecking is waaay faster than openssl
2144 2013-03-30 19:32:08 <BlueMatt> I dunno, I havent benchmarked it
2145 2013-03-30 19:32:16 <sipa> no opaque data embedded in the client that needs many eyes to trust it
2146 2013-03-30 19:32:30 <sipa> (and yes, the code itself already has such a requirement, but that's inevitable)
2147 2013-03-30 19:32:33 <BlueMatt> anyone know what time dr. who comes on?
2148 2013-03-30 19:32:54 <g0hww> anytime he wants
2149 2013-03-30 19:33:27 <hnz> BlueMatt: 1815-1900 uk time afaik, so would've just ended
2150 2013-03-30 19:33:29 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: his new external code? it's 4-5x faster than openssl.
2151 2013-03-30 19:33:38 <BlueMatt> oh, hey, wonder if its on the torrents yet then
2152 2013-03-30 19:33:43 <sipa> on x86_64
2153 2013-03-30 19:33:43 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yes, that is what Im using
2154 2013-03-30 19:33:45 <TD> it's hardly opaque. just type the top hash into block explorer and there it is
2155 2013-03-30 19:34:04 systemParanoid has joined
2156 2013-03-30 19:34:09 <MC-Droid> just watched it
2157 2013-03-30 19:34:11 <gmaxwell> TD: Your expectation of people depending on centeralized websites is going to become a running joke.
2158 2013-03-30 19:34:12 daemon has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2159 2013-03-30 19:34:15 <MC-Droid> bit mental
2160 2013-03-30 19:34:20 o3u has joined
2161 2013-03-30 19:34:26 <MC-Droid> be on torrents in about an hour
2162 2013-03-30 19:34:26 normanrichards has joined
2163 2013-03-30 19:34:26 <BlueMatt> MC-Droid: if you say anything about it, Ill ban you permanently
2164 2013-03-30 19:34:31 <sipa> TD: i'd like to do an experiment, where we add an invalid checkpoint in the code, and subtly add a bug to make it not be used
2165 2013-03-30 19:34:41 <sipa> TD: and see how long it takes before someone notices
2166 2013-03-30 19:34:44 <BlueMatt> MC-Droid: no, already on the torrents
2167 2013-03-30 19:34:55 <TD> if you announce it's an experiment you defeat the point. especially if it's not actually doing anything.
2168 2013-03-30 19:35:04 <MC-Droid> damn they encode fast these dsys
2169 2013-03-30 19:35:05 <sipa> of course not announce it
2170 2013-03-30 19:35:34 <TD> so your threat model is *all* the core developers and people who watch github who know your plan, go evil simultaneously and â¦â¦. and what? try and force upgraded users onto a chain fork that â¦â¦. does what?
2171 2013-03-30 19:35:50 <TD> because otherwise i will just say, "OK, sipa added a bogus checkpoint." - done
2172 2013-03-30 19:36:04 <TD> and if you say, well that's cheating because you knew about it, then your threat model includes me going bad, right?
2173 2013-03-30 19:36:23 <BlueMatt> TD: so he waits a month and sneaks it in right before release when you arent looking
2174 2013-03-30 19:36:28 Z0rZ0rZ0r has quit (Quit: Wheeeee)
2175 2013-03-30 19:36:29 <BlueMatt> and have forgotten
2176 2013-03-30 19:36:35 <TD> i look at all the commits going into bitcoind.
2177 2013-03-30 19:36:41 <TD> so eventually i'd notice. as would gavin. etc.
2178 2013-03-30 19:37:29 * Luke-Jr also
2179 2013-03-30 19:37:54 <sipa> maybe :)
2180 2013-03-30 19:38:13 <Luke-Jr> although admittedly, I don't verify checkpoints are non-bogus
2181 2013-03-30 19:38:26 <Luke-Jr> I don't really see a viable attack vector there
2182 2013-03-30 19:39:09 <TD> you would have to mine a very long private side chain that â¦. rolled back a developer spend?
2183 2013-03-30 19:39:15 <MC-Droid> checkpoints are cheating yo
2184 2013-03-30 19:39:15 <TD> and then release a new version with a checkpoint in it
2185 2013-03-30 19:39:34 <TD> and then assume no miners will notice that suddenly all their coinbases got killed and huge chains of trades go pending when they upgrade
2186 2013-03-30 19:39:45 <TD> actually abusing this mechanism without being detected seems virtually impossible to me
2187 2013-03-30 19:39:51 <Luke-Jr> TD: I don't think upgrading clients would accept the change
2188 2013-03-30 19:40:12 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2189 2013-03-30 19:40:20 Bjander has joined
2190 2013-03-30 19:40:39 Guest78233 has quit (Quit: Yo!)
2191 2013-03-30 19:41:52 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2192 2013-03-30 19:42:46 <sipa> regarding checkpoints, you're probably right that actually abusing it would be noticed very easily
2193 2013-03-30 19:42:56 <sipa> but still, i don't see how they add any security
2194 2013-03-30 19:43:41 grau has joined
2195 2013-03-30 19:44:01 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2196 2013-03-30 19:44:45 grau has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2197 2013-03-30 19:44:49 <sipa> TD: have you tried the latest #2409, by the way?
2198 2013-03-30 19:45:28 <sipa> TD: together with #2423, it should restrain memory consumption very significantly
2199 2013-03-30 19:45:29 RoboTeddy has joined
2200 2013-03-30 19:45:34 <TD> i switched to your netstuff branch a few hours ago
2201 2013-03-30 19:45:43 <TD> so unless you updated it in the last three hours, yes, and it's working great
2202 2013-03-30 19:45:43 <sipa> ok, good; thanks for testing
2203 2013-03-30 19:46:00 <TD> BlueMatt put one of my nodes into his dns seed and now it's got a flock of bitcoinjays talking to it
2204 2013-03-30 19:46:18 <sipa> i did fix a bug in it a few hours ago, but it's one that only happens with -debug on, and just causes a segfault
2205 2013-03-30 19:46:20 <TD> cruising with about 100 connections and <300mb
2206 2013-03-30 19:46:57 <TD> actually about 120 connections
2207 2013-03-30 19:47:03 <TD> i guess i should open up the throttle some more
2208 2013-03-30 19:47:08 <jouke> :o
2209 2013-03-30 19:47:14 <TD> 125 connections
2210 2013-03-30 19:47:22 <TD> only 158mb ram. it actually went down!
2211 2013-03-30 19:47:31 <sipa> 158 :o
2212 2013-03-30 19:47:43 RoboTedd_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2213 2013-03-30 19:47:44 <BlueMatt> mine has 174: virt:788m res:306m
2214 2013-03-30 19:47:46 <sipa> i'm at 280 currently, with around 80 connections
2215 2013-03-30 19:47:48 <TD> nice
2216 2013-03-30 19:47:56 <BlueMatt> 174 active connections
2217 2013-03-30 19:48:00 <TD> sipa: 600 vss
2218 2013-03-30 19:48:22 <BlueMatt> my node is now more cpu-constrained than mem :)
2219 2013-03-30 19:48:23 <sipa> virtual memory is still a problem, and huge
2220 2013-03-30 19:48:33 <sipa> 1273 MiB VIRT here
2221 2013-03-30 19:48:47 <sipa> it used to be 1800 or so
2222 2013-03-30 19:48:47 <TD> yeah. i wonder where all the vss goes
2223 2013-03-30 19:49:19 <TD> ok i restarted with max == 300 conns
2224 2013-03-30 19:49:49 <MC-Droid> ive seen 51mb on my bitcoind
2225 2013-03-30 19:50:04 <sipa> 0.8.x ?
2226 2013-03-30 19:50:32 <MC-Droid> ye
2227 2013-03-30 19:50:48 <MC-Droid> thrn randomly swings wildly to 300
2228 2013-03-30 19:51:03 bitafterbit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2229 2013-03-30 19:53:16 <TD> BlueMatt: you are cpu bound at 174?
2230 2013-03-30 19:53:22 <TD> ouch
2231 2013-03-30 19:53:34 <BlueMatt> no, its never 100 for more than a second
2232 2013-03-30 19:53:38 <TD> ok
2233 2013-03-30 19:53:42 <BlueMatt> but its clearly closer to maxing cpu than mem
2234 2013-03-30 19:53:52 <BlueMatt> (it sits at ~50 in msghandler)
2235 2013-03-30 19:54:03 <BlueMatt> but very non-consistent
2236 2013-03-30 19:54:04 <sipa> ~50 what?
2237 2013-03-30 19:54:09 grau has joined
2238 2013-03-30 19:54:12 <BlueMatt> % of a atom core
2239 2013-03-30 19:54:21 <sipa> oh wow, on an atom :)
2240 2013-03-30 19:54:22 <TD> ah, atom
2241 2013-03-30 19:54:26 <BlueMatt> model name : Intel(R) Atom(TM) CPU D2700 @ 2.13GHz
2242 2013-03-30 19:54:33 <TD> hm, something is making transactions with no inputs
2243 2013-03-30 19:54:45 tonikt has joined
2244 2013-03-30 19:54:53 <TD> i think there must be a bug in bitcoinj that can do that, as i have only satoshis and bitcoinjs connected
2245 2013-03-30 19:54:55 <BlueMatt> very recent atom, though
2246 2013-03-30 19:54:57 bitafterbit has joined
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2249 2013-03-30 19:55:27 <sipa> BlueMatt: btw, what version of secp256k1 did you try? current head segfaults, iirc
2250 2013-03-30 19:55:36 <sipa> ah, only the asm version
2251 2013-03-30 19:55:44 <BlueMatt> yea, Im on gmp nonasm
2252 2013-03-30 19:58:53 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2253 2013-03-30 20:03:55 <tonikt> Hi guys. Question about the signatures... if the signature is i.e. 3045022100fe00e013c244062847045ae7eb73b03fca583e9aa5dbd030a8fd1c6dfcf11b1002207d0d04fed8fa1e93007468d5a9e134b0a7023b6d31db4e50942d43a250f4d07c01
2254 2013-03-30 20:04:11 hnz_ has joined
2255 2013-03-30 20:04:15 <tonikt> .... which part is R and which one is S?
2256 2013-03-30 20:04:39 <sipa> R is 00fe00e013c244062847045ae7eb73b03fca583e9aa5dbd030a8fd1c6dfcf11b10
2257 2013-03-30 20:04:50 <sipa> S is 7d0d04fed8fa1e93007468d5a9e134b0a7023b6d31db4e50942d43a250f4d07c
2258 2013-03-30 20:05:08 <sipa> script.cpp has a comment explaining the format
2259 2013-03-30 20:05:11 <tonikt> Thank you, sipa!
2260 2013-03-30 20:05:44 <TheSeven> 1860MB virtual with a freshly started bitcoind 0.8.1 amd64
2261 2013-03-30 20:06:09 <sipa> virtual doesn't really matter, but it's very high, agree
2262 2013-03-30 20:06:16 sgornick has joined
2263 2013-03-30 20:06:43 <Stimpy> Is there a library for Bitcoin (libBitcoin?) so we can build monolithic clients?
2264 2013-03-30 20:07:03 <TheSeven> looks like it maps half of the blockchain into its address space? :)
2265 2013-03-30 20:07:10 <sipa> TheSeven: it doesn't
2266 2013-03-30 20:07:14 <TheSeven> 281MB actually resident with the usual 10 connections
2267 2013-03-30 20:07:25 <sipa> TheSeven: but LevelDB does use a lot of mmap
2268 2013-03-30 20:07:46 <sipa> TheSeven: we're working on patches to reduce memory usage significantly, though
2269 2013-03-30 20:07:53 <sipa> (actual usage, not virt)
2270 2013-03-30 20:08:08 <TheSeven> well, at that level it isn't a problem for me, just reporting stats :)
2271 2013-03-30 20:08:33 <TheSeven> the blockchain storage is a much bigger problem for that node
2272 2013-03-30 20:08:46 <sipa> Stimpy: libbitcoin is a library written from scratch by genjix (dunno how complete it is), libcoin is a significant refactor of the satoshi code
2273 2013-03-30 20:08:57 <sipa> Stimpy: jeff has a libccoin i think
2274 2013-03-30 20:09:02 hnz_ has quit ()
2275 2013-03-30 20:09:13 <TheSeven> 9.4GB .bitcoin directory (including the 0.7 remnants)
2276 2013-03-30 20:09:20 gagecolton has joined
2277 2013-03-30 20:09:30 <Stimpy> sipa-Thx. I'll have a google
2278 2013-03-30 20:10:12 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2279 2013-03-30 20:10:16 <tonikt> sipa: one more thing, these two values, they are big, or little endian?
2280 2013-03-30 20:10:19 Bjander has joined
2281 2013-03-30 20:10:21 <TheSeven> i can safely remove .bitcoin/blk*, right?
2282 2013-03-30 20:11:09 <sipa> tonikt: big endian
2283 2013-03-30 20:11:18 <sipa> TheSeven: correct; see contrib/tidy_datadir.sh
2284 2013-03-30 20:11:31 <tonikt> got it, thx. it saves me a lot of time
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2298 2013-03-30 20:20:59 <Guest41410> Ãû
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2306 2013-03-30 20:29:43 * HM pokes at json_spirit
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2309 2013-03-30 20:32:59 <etotheipi__> sipa: did you successfully estimate (within some reasonable error) the block download time remaining?
2310 2013-03-30 20:33:09 <etotheipi__> I just started looking at this again, and as expected, I'm failing miserably
2311 2013-03-30 20:33:25 <etotheipi__> (expected because I didn't think it was going to be this hard, and I haven't put that much effort into it)
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2315 2013-03-30 20:34:58 <sipa> etotheipi__: assuming the time factor between verifying a txin before and after the checkpoint is known, yes
2316 2013-03-30 20:35:02 <etotheipi__> sipa: at this point, I'm tempted to just accumulate 3 full-download time-vs-block histories, and use that as a template for approximating percent (extrapolate out based on the expected current block and density of the last top 1000 blocks, and scale it)
2317 2013-03-30 20:35:10 Ashaman has joined
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2325 2013-03-30 20:40:48 <etotheipi__> sipa: so you're estimating the number of txins remaining to be verified?
2326 2013-03-30 20:40:54 <etotheipi__> it's all based on txins?
2327 2013-03-30 20:41:01 <sipa> etotheipi__: no, on transactions
2328 2013-03-30 20:41:10 <sipa> but the ratio of txins/tx is +- constant
2329 2013-03-30 20:42:42 dd has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
2330 2013-03-30 20:42:48 <etotheipi__> well, txins is ultimately the issue, right? they're the biggest part of the transactions and the most compute intensive
2331 2013-03-30 20:42:55 <sipa> yes
2332 2013-03-30 20:43:02 <sipa> but we don't measure total count of txins
2333 2013-03-30 20:43:16 <Line_> so im running bitcoind -testnet -daemon on ubuntu 12.10 via the ppa:bitcoin/bitcoin release
2334 2013-03-30 20:43:20 <TD> for some reason my node doesn't seem to go much beyond 125 even when unthrottled
2335 2013-03-30 20:43:23 <TD> at 135 now
2336 2013-03-30 20:43:31 <Line_> how do i runn commands via comma d line like getbslance?
2337 2013-03-30 20:43:34 <Line_> getbalance
2338 2013-03-30 20:43:38 saulimus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2339 2013-03-30 20:44:01 saulimus has joined
2340 2013-03-30 20:44:12 <BlueMatt> TD: there is only limited demand for connections
2341 2013-03-30 20:44:22 <sipa> TD: it takes a long time to go up
2342 2013-03-30 20:44:26 <BlueMatt> (I think, unless its a bug, because I never see mine go near 200)
2343 2013-03-30 20:44:32 <BlueMatt> well, never pass 200
2344 2013-03-30 20:44:32 <sipa> i'm at 83 now, a few hours since restart
2345 2013-03-30 20:44:48 <BlueMatt> oh, wait, nope at 226 now
2346 2013-03-30 20:44:57 <BlueMatt> wait...wat?
2347 2013-03-30 20:45:04 <BlueMatt> just lost 40 connections in 5 seconds
2348 2013-03-30 20:45:15 <TD> andreas said there's 1000 android downloads per day
2349 2013-03-30 20:45:31 <TD> BlueMatt: i've seen tons of connections vanish together too. i suspect some artifact of how the message loop works
2350 2013-03-30 20:45:35 <BlueMatt> probably the dead conntions reaper
2351 2013-03-30 20:45:37 <BlueMatt> yea
2352 2013-03-30 20:45:46 <Joric> for a second i thought you talked about the exchange rate - $200, $226...
2353 2013-03-30 20:45:50 <BlueMatt> anyway, I rarely see it sit above 200 for long
2354 2013-03-30 20:45:56 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2355 2013-03-30 20:45:57 <BlueMatt> Joric: heh, I wish
2356 2013-03-30 20:46:01 <TD> good good
2357 2013-03-30 20:46:16 <TD> it's surprising they're virtually all android and hardly any multibit
2358 2013-03-30 20:46:26 <TD> but i guess the android client connects automatically at night time
2359 2013-03-30 20:46:30 <BlueMatt> multibit isnt featured on bitcoin.org, android is
2360 2013-03-30 20:46:40 <TD> i wish we had statistical exports from bitcoind, would be neat to graph it
2361 2013-03-30 20:46:42 <TD> yeah i know
2362 2013-03-30 20:48:11 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2363 2013-03-30 20:48:20 <Joric> where i can look at stats about bitcoin clients market share?
2364 2013-03-30 20:48:54 copumpkin has joined
2365 2013-03-30 20:49:16 rdymac has joined
2366 2013-03-30 20:49:55 tralalaa has joined
2367 2013-03-30 20:49:59 <TD> there aren't any reliable stats
2368 2013-03-30 20:50:04 <tralalaa> any has experience with blockchain.info API?
2369 2013-03-30 20:50:14 <tralalaa> anyone*
2370 2013-03-30 20:50:17 Brizzo has joined
2371 2013-03-30 20:51:41 <sipa> BlueMatt: asm version works now (you need yasm, though)
2372 2013-03-30 20:52:14 <owowo> ;;bc,mktcap
2373 2013-03-30 20:52:15 <gribble> 1001038032.56
2374 2013-03-30 20:52:16 <owowo> ;o)
2375 2013-03-30 20:52:17 <Joric> i really liked blockchain.info but it got so big that it's somewhat scary
2376 2013-03-30 20:52:29 <BlueMatt> sipa: alright, Ill try it a bit later
2377 2013-03-30 20:52:30 <BlueMatt> thanks
2378 2013-03-30 20:52:44 <Joric> i see you didn't even mention it on the site
2379 2013-03-30 20:52:45 <tralalaa> I'm just wondering, with the blockchain.info API you send your password as plain text in the URL .. isn't that dangerous?
2380 2013-03-30 20:52:45 <BlueMatt> sipa: can you merge the jni wrapper?
2381 2013-03-30 20:53:19 <tralalaa> you send your GUID and password in the url, when you want for example to get your balance
2382 2013-03-30 20:53:29 <sipa> BlueMatt: sorry, broke it by merging other things, and see comment
2383 2013-03-30 20:53:33 normanrichards has quit ()
2384 2013-03-30 20:54:01 <tralalaa> ... or am I missing something? ... anyone?
2385 2013-03-30 20:54:20 <BlueMatt> sipa: sadly, the way jni is structured, I dont think you can avoid it. I suppose we could do org.sipa.secp256k1 instead, but...?
2386 2013-03-30 20:54:58 <sipa> BlueMatt: yeah, we'd need to invent a Java namespace for it
2387 2013-03-30 20:55:12 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2388 2013-03-30 20:55:19 Bjander has joined
2389 2013-03-30 20:55:36 <sipa> BlueMatt: also, i'd put the .java file that defines the interaction with it also in the project
2390 2013-03-30 20:55:49 <BlueMatt> ok, I can do that...pick a namespace
2391 2013-03-30 20:56:03 <Joric> tralalaa, https://blockchain.info/api/blockchain_wallet_api ? seems it really wants your wallet password not some api key
2392 2013-03-30 20:56:26 <tralalaa> Joris: yes, isn't that dangerous?
2393 2013-03-30 20:56:32 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2394 2013-03-30 20:56:36 zooko has joined
2395 2013-03-30 20:56:38 <tralalaa> since, it sends your password unencrypted over the wire
2396 2013-03-30 20:56:51 <tralalaa> what if someone is sniffing the network, can't they see parameters passed to https urls?
2397 2013-03-30 20:56:57 <sipa> BlueMatt: good question
2398 2013-03-30 20:57:03 <Joric> well, at least don't send it over an unencrypted connection https only
2399 2013-03-30 20:57:07 grau has joined
2400 2013-03-30 20:57:11 <mrjack_> hm
2401 2013-03-30 20:57:23 <mrjack_> do i need to set a wallet password before i can use sendtoaddress via rpc?
2402 2013-03-30 20:57:30 <sipa> mrjack_: no
2403 2013-03-30 20:57:43 <mrjack_> so why does it fail then?
2404 2013-03-30 20:57:45 <sipa> mrjack_: wallet passphrase is for protecting the wallet.dat file, not for authentication to bitcoind
2405 2013-03-30 20:57:54 <sipa> you need to set an RPC username/password
2406 2013-03-30 20:58:06 <tralalaa> Joric: when parameters are passed through an HTTPS url, aren't those visible to someone who's sniffing the network?
2407 2013-03-30 20:58:26 <mrjack_> sipa: i have, i can do listaccounts etc just fine
2408 2013-03-30 20:58:29 coolfengyu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2409 2013-03-30 20:58:29 <mrjack_> sipa: PHP Warning: fopen(http://...@192.168.200.6:8332/): failed to open stream: HTTP request failed! HTTP/1.1 500 Internal Server Error
2410 2013-03-30 20:58:29 <mrjack_> in /domains/www.smart-weblications.de/www/classes/jsonRPCClient.php on line 132
2411 2013-03-30 20:58:29 <mrjack_> PHP Fatal error: Uncaught exception 'Exception' with message 'Unable to connect to http://*user*:*pass*192.168.200.6:8332/' in /domains/www.smart-weblications.de/www/classes/jsonRPCClient.php:140
2412 2013-03-30 20:58:29 <mrjack_> Stack trace:
2413 2013-03-30 20:58:29 <mrjack_> #0 /domains/www.smart-weblications.de/billing/bitcoin_parse_transactions.php(74): jsonRPCClient->__call('sendtoaddress', Array)
2414 2013-03-30 20:58:30 <mrjack_> #1 /domains/www.smart-weblications.de/billing/bitcoin_parse_transactions.php(74): jsonRPCClient->sendtoaddress('1MneYkFbwy5Db5n...', 0, 'move 0 to cereb...', 'recieve 0 from ...')
2415 2013-03-30 20:58:30 <mrjack_> #2 {main}
2416 2013-03-30 20:58:31 <mrjack_> thrown in /domains/www.smart-weblications.de/www/classes/jsonRPCClient.php on line 140
2417 2013-03-30 20:58:36 <BlueMatt> oh god, dont paste here
2418 2013-03-30 20:58:40 <sipa> mrjack_: use a paste site for pastes longer than 3 lines
2419 2013-03-30 20:58:58 <mrjack_> oh sorry please excuse
2420 2013-03-30 20:59:06 grau has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2421 2013-03-30 20:59:23 <sipa> mrjack_: probably you're encoding the parameters incorrectly
2422 2013-03-30 20:59:31 grau has joined
2423 2013-03-30 20:59:50 <mrjack_> http://pastebin.com/AgfCwTkW
2424 2013-03-30 21:00:18 <redeeman> maybe you did same mistake as me, and did "integer" instead of integer?
2425 2013-03-30 21:00:21 space_cadet has joined
2426 2013-03-30 21:00:28 <sipa> he didn't
2427 2013-03-30 21:00:51 MCM-Mike_ is now known as MCM-Mike
2428 2013-03-30 21:00:52 <mrjack_> oh even when there is amount set, it does throw the same error
2429 2013-03-30 21:01:03 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
2430 2013-03-30 21:01:09 brson has quit (Quit: leaving)
2431 2013-03-30 21:02:31 <Stimpy> mrjack_-Your sever running in safe mode?
2432 2013-03-30 21:02:54 <mrjack_> http://pastebin.com/FWb6W8La
2433 2013-03-30 21:02:58 <mrjack_> safe mode?
2434 2013-03-30 21:03:05 coolfengyu has joined
2435 2013-03-30 21:03:59 <Joric> tralalaa, data you send over https is entirely encrypted, no matter what, even urls
2436 2013-03-30 21:04:38 Brizzo has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
2437 2013-03-30 21:04:46 <Stimpy> mrjack_-Safemode will not allow you to use fopen on urls
2438 2013-03-30 21:05:04 <mrjack_> !? which url?
2439 2013-03-30 21:05:04 <gribble> Error: There is no command "which url?".
2440 2013-03-30 21:05:06 <sipa> Stimpy: listaccounts work
2441 2013-03-30 21:05:12 <sipa> so the URL is fine
2442 2013-03-30 21:05:24 <sipa> my guess there's something wrong with the parameters encoding
2443 2013-03-30 21:06:33 <Stimpy> sipa-ok. Thats my next guess too ;)
2444 2013-03-30 21:06:42 systemParanoid has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2445 2013-03-30 21:06:52 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2446 2013-03-30 21:08:51 <mrjack_> <bitcoinaddress> <amount> [comment] [comment-to] <amount> is a real and is rounded to 8 decimal places. Returns the transaction ID <txid> if successful.
2447 2013-03-30 21:10:04 <sipa> mrjack_: what are you sending _exactly_ over RPC?
2448 2013-03-30 21:10:12 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2449 2013-03-30 21:10:20 <sipa> (you can blank out the address if you like)
2450 2013-03-30 21:10:25 Bjander has joined
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2460 2013-03-30 21:20:56 <mrjack_> http://pastebin.com/HaEgexpB
2461 2013-03-30 21:20:57 <mrjack_> ok
2462 2013-03-30 21:21:06 <mrjack_> so how can i precalculate the fee?
2463 2013-03-30 21:21:26 int0x27h has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2475 2013-03-30 21:36:55 <HM> this is irritating
2476 2013-03-30 21:36:57 coolfengyu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2477 2013-03-30 21:37:08 <HM> anone a json spirit expert?
2478 2013-03-30 21:37:18 <redeeman> uhm
2479 2013-03-30 21:37:40 <mrjack_> is there a way to precalculate the fee for a transaction?
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2484 2013-03-30 21:40:12 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2488 2013-03-30 21:42:36 <HM> hilarity
2489 2013-03-30 21:43:17 nimdAHK has joined
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2493 2013-03-30 21:46:29 <mrjack_> it is bad that the bitcoind returns 500 internal server error instead of some useful output when the amount is to small because of payment transaction fees
2494 2013-03-30 21:47:19 <CodeShark> it does?
2495 2013-03-30 21:47:54 Gnaf has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130307023931])
2496 2013-03-30 21:48:05 <CodeShark> what's your exact RPC request?
2497 2013-03-30 21:48:40 <mrjack_> http://pastebin.com/FWb6W8La
2498 2013-03-30 21:49:16 <CodeShark> oh, you're using the jsonrpc php client?
2499 2013-03-30 21:49:20 <CodeShark> that thing has horrid error handling
2500 2013-03-30 21:49:28 <CodeShark> make direct curl calls
2501 2013-03-30 21:49:34 <CodeShark> bitcoind will give you a specific error
2502 2013-03-30 21:49:37 <mrjack_> http://pastebin.com/GUnLvBFu
2503 2013-03-30 21:50:07 <CodeShark> right, it's not bitcoind that's the problem
2504 2013-03-30 21:50:11 <CodeShark> it's that idiotic php class
2505 2013-03-30 21:50:55 <mrjack_> ah ok i see
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2519 2013-03-30 21:57:07 <mrjack_> ok i fixed that and now get an error, i can grab the transaction fee from that error msg and retry again.. so i think this should work.. ok seems that that was the last part and i can test it with some customers ;)
2520 2013-03-30 21:58:05 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
2521 2013-03-30 21:58:06 <gribble> 228820
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2542 2013-03-30 22:19:55 <BlueMatt> sipa: org.bitcoin.NativeECDSA ok with you?
2543 2013-03-30 22:21:08 <sipa> BlueMatt: ok
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2546 2013-03-30 22:22:35 <CodeShark> are you porting it to java?
2547 2013-03-30 22:22:46 <sipa> BlueMatt: maybe NativeSecp256k1
2548 2013-03-30 22:22:57 <BlueMatt> ok, works to
2549 2013-03-30 22:22:58 <BlueMatt> o
2550 2013-03-30 22:23:25 <sipa> CodeShark: he wrote a JNI wrapper
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2557 2013-03-30 22:29:15 <BlueMatt> sipa: ok, updated
2558 2013-03-30 22:29:32 safra has joined
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2560 2013-03-30 22:31:22 <sipa> BlueMatt: can you add a .java file with a minimal interface too?
2561 2013-03-30 22:31:35 <BlueMatt> oh, sorry yes
2562 2013-03-30 22:31:40 <sipa> (something that doesn't require everything encoded in one byte array...)
2563 2013-03-30 22:31:50 <BlueMatt> meh, thats an effeciency thing
2564 2013-03-30 22:31:56 <BlueMatt> but, yea I can throw a wrapper around it
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2566 2013-03-30 22:32:49 <sipa> i don't mind using such representation for passing between the two, but ideally, a Java client of this library shouldn't need to worry about that
2567 2013-03-30 22:32:59 LacLeman has joined
2568 2013-03-30 22:33:24 <BlueMatt> absolutely, I just need to finish what Im doing so I can refactor automagically...
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2575 2013-03-30 22:37:38 <gmaxwell> sipa: oh, you changed it to yasm. thanks. :)
2576 2013-03-30 22:37:52 <sipa> gmaxwell: no, the author did :)
2577 2013-03-30 22:38:03 <sipa> (after significant poking from me)
2578 2013-03-30 22:38:03 <CodeShark> not a fan of jwasm?
2579 2013-03-30 22:38:21 Vinnie_win has joined
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2581 2013-03-30 22:38:33 <CodeShark> we're going to have to change it to inline __asm__ anyhow :)
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2583 2013-03-30 22:39:21 <sipa> not _have_ to, but i'd like that, yes
2584 2013-03-30 22:39:37 <gmaxwell> Yea, I'd already mentioned to sipa that thats my preference. Not hard to do for this code.
2585 2013-03-30 22:39:52 <sipa> gmaxwell: feel free to do that :)
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2592 2013-03-30 22:43:09 <BCB> I just upgraded to 0.8.1 but when I run bitcoind -daemon getinfo shows "version" : 70003,
2593 2013-03-30 22:43:16 <BCB> any suggestions
2594 2013-03-30 22:43:27 <sipa> BCB: looks correct
2595 2013-03-30 22:43:36 systemParanoid has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2596 2013-03-30 22:43:39 <sipa> oh, no
2597 2013-03-30 22:43:59 <sipa> version should be higher; protocolversion should be 70001
2598 2013-03-30 22:44:02 <gmaxwell> BCB: assuming you restarted bitcoind after the upgradeâ sounds like you're running an old copy.
2599 2013-03-30 22:44:17 lodse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2600 2013-03-30 22:44:52 <BCB> sipa, gmaxwell "protocolversion" : 60002,
2601 2013-03-30 22:45:02 <gmaxwell> BCB: are you on windows?
2602 2013-03-30 22:45:14 <BCB> linux
2603 2013-03-30 22:45:19 <gmaxwell> BCB: which bitcoind
2604 2013-03-30 22:45:22 <gmaxwell> (type that)
2605 2013-03-30 22:46:01 <gmaxwell> sipa: lol. I can tell this code was written by an assembly coder.
2606 2013-03-30 22:46:02 <gmaxwell> jmp common_exit_norm
2607 2013-03-30 22:46:15 <sipa> gmaxwell: :D
2608 2013-03-30 22:46:16 <gmaxwell> ... he merged the return code for the two functions.
2609 2013-03-30 22:46:20 <sipa> yes, i know
2610 2013-03-30 22:46:34 <CodeShark> hah
2611 2013-03-30 22:46:40 <BCB> gmaxwell, /usr/bin/which: no bitcoin in (/usr/local/bin:/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/sbin:/usr/sbin:/sbin:/opt/aws/bin:/home/ec2-user/bin)
2612 2013-03-30 22:46:51 <gmaxwell> BCB: bitcoind not bitcoin
2613 2013-03-30 22:47:14 <gmaxwell> you should see some of the crazy program flow control people sometimes produce in asm.. makes a duffs device look tame.
2614 2013-03-30 22:47:21 <BCB> gmaxwell, /usr/local/bin/bitcoind
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2616 2013-03-30 22:47:46 <gmaxwell> BCB: right, so I'm betting that /usr/local/bin/bitcoind is some old copy and thats what you're running instead of what you installed.
2617 2013-03-30 22:49:23 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2618 2013-03-30 22:49:44 <BCB> gmaxwell, so how is that upgraded to point to the correct version
2619 2013-03-30 22:50:06 <sipa> BCB: where did you put the new version?
2620 2013-03-30 22:50:14 <sipa> or how did you install it?
2621 2013-03-30 22:50:44 <BCB> wget
2622 2013-03-30 22:50:47 <BCB> /home/user
2623 2013-03-30 22:50:52 <BCB> unzip
2624 2013-03-30 22:51:45 <BCB> /home/user/bitcoin-0.8.1-linux
2625 2013-03-30 22:51:49 clr_ has joined
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2627 2013-03-30 22:53:47 <BCB> anyone?
2628 2013-03-30 22:54:17 <lianj> how about fee decrease for txs which combine lots of inputs into 1-2 outputs?
2629 2013-03-30 22:54:51 <BlueMatt> lianj: we have no control over that here, talk to miners
2630 2013-03-30 22:54:55 tonikt has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2631 2013-03-30 22:54:57 <BlueMatt> we can set higher priority, but not fee
2632 2013-03-30 22:55:13 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2633 2013-03-30 22:55:20 <sipa> BCB: you need to make sure that the new bitcoind is found in the PATH
2634 2013-03-30 22:55:20 Bjander has joined
2635 2013-03-30 22:55:44 <lianj> BlueMatt: k thanks. you think a 256kb tx with enough fee can make it into a block currently?
2636 2013-03-30 22:55:45 <sipa> BCB: first of all, i'd remove the old bitcoind from /usr/local/bin (or uninstall the package that put it there)
2637 2013-03-30 22:55:52 <BlueMatt> lianj: I have nfc
2638 2013-03-30 22:55:57 <BlueMatt> probably
2639 2013-03-30 22:56:17 <sipa> BCB: second, either put the new one in /usr/local/bin, or make sure /home/user/bitcoin-0.8.1-linux is in your PATH
2640 2013-03-30 22:56:32 <sipa> BCB: you may want to learn about how unix/linux works
2641 2013-03-30 22:56:43 <sipa> the shell, in particular
2642 2013-03-30 22:58:15 gdsl is now known as gdsl_afk
2643 2013-03-30 22:58:52 <BCB> sipa, how do I put the new bitcoind in /usr/local/bin
2644 2013-03-30 22:59:09 <CodeShark> cp
2645 2013-03-30 22:59:12 <CodeShark> or mv
2646 2013-03-30 22:59:23 <BCB> kk
2647 2013-03-30 22:59:32 cyrozap has quit (Quit: cyrozap)
2648 2013-03-30 23:00:20 <CodeShark> BCB: there's an O'Reilly book called "UNIX in a nutshell" - get it :)
2649 2013-03-30 23:00:30 btcgld has joined
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2651 2013-03-30 23:02:59 <BCB> CodeShark, will do
2652 2013-03-30 23:03:11 <BCB> CodeShark, I have the CentOS bible. Didn't help
2653 2013-03-30 23:05:34 <BCB> CodeShark, sipa gmaxwell thx. Up and running.
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2663 2013-03-30 23:20:33 <kfreds> How many addresses can wallet.dat contain before something bad happens?
2664 2013-03-30 23:20:55 <nimdAHK> 17
2665 2013-03-30 23:21:02 <nimdAHK> :P
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2668 2013-03-30 23:24:50 <CodeShark> the answer is 1. it's a trick question. something bad can always happen :)
2669 2013-03-30 23:25:10 <SwedFTP> Back your shit up son
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2674 2013-03-30 23:27:44 <sipa> kfreds: up to 10000 is certainly doable
2675 2013-03-30 23:30:55 Jere_Jones has joined
2676 2013-03-30 23:30:58 <BCB> sipa does 0.8.0 have to resync? All my balances are negative??
2677 2013-03-30 23:31:00 <kfreds> sipa: Thank you. What can I expect after that?
2678 2013-03-30 23:31:12 <gmaxwell> BCB: yes, 0.8 resyncs.
2679 2013-03-30 23:31:52 <BCB> gmaxwell, ok, thanks I just reverted back. Seems fine
2680 2013-03-30 23:32:26 qbasicer has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2681 2013-03-30 23:32:49 <sipa> kfreds: slowness, huge wallet files, ...
2682 2013-03-30 23:33:31 <CodeShark> nobody should have to manage 10000 random private keys :)
2683 2013-03-30 23:34:32 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: have to manage???
2684 2013-03-30 23:34:44 <HM> let's patch bitcoind so the txfee is proportional to the number of wallets you have :P
2685 2013-03-30 23:34:49 <gmaxwell> there is nothing to manage. We have computers to do these things for you.
2686 2013-03-30 23:35:04 qbasicer has joined
2687 2013-03-30 23:35:16 <gmaxwell> Might as well say "nobody should have to manage 10000 past transactions" :P
2688 2013-03-30 23:35:28 Thepok has joined
2689 2013-03-30 23:35:36 <sipa> "nobody should have to manage their individual dollar coins"
2690 2013-03-30 23:35:57 <warren> I was considering dumping my old keys, but then gmaxwell reminded me someone might send to an old address floating around.
2691 2013-03-30 23:35:57 <CodeShark> dollar coins? those never were a hit in the US
2692 2013-03-30 23:36:06 <gmaxwell> zomg 312kib of private key data. end of world. :P
2693 2013-03-30 23:36:09 Perdos has joined
2694 2013-03-30 23:36:12 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I like them. :P
2695 2013-03-30 23:36:57 <CodeShark> the dwight d. eisenhower dollar: flop. the susan b. anthony dollar: flop. the sacagawea dollar: flop. the presidential dollars: flop.
2696 2013-03-30 23:37:11 <CodeShark> everyone likes the greenback
2697 2013-03-30 23:38:23 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: my point was more concerning backups and synchronization
2698 2013-03-30 23:38:40 <CodeShark> which are NOT trivial to manage for a wallet
2699 2013-03-30 23:38:43 <Perdos> CodeShark: not those who have an unconventional opinion about lincoln
2700 2013-03-30 23:38:56 <CodeShark> lincoln's on the $5
2701 2013-03-30 23:39:12 <Perdos> oh wait, i'm thinking of washington
2702 2013-03-30 23:39:23 <CodeShark> George Washington is pretty uncontroversially respected in all parts of the US
2703 2013-03-30 23:39:27 <Perdos> he was the guy who introduced the unbacked GW
2704 2013-03-30 23:39:36 <Perdos> greenback i mean
2705 2013-03-30 23:39:42 <Perdos> or was it lincoln
2706 2013-03-30 23:39:50 <Perdos> one of those two used it to fund a war
2707 2013-03-30 23:39:54 <Perdos> i think it was lincoln
2708 2013-03-30 23:40:03 safra has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2709 2013-03-30 23:40:11 <Perdos> my history is a bit hazy
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2712 2013-03-30 23:41:01 <kfreds> I'd prefer it if people sent payments to an address only once, and preferably within a set time period (say 48h). Then I know I can retire the addresses and not keep checking them for transactions. Or maybe I'm thinking about this the wrong way?
2713 2013-03-30 23:42:39 <gmaxwell> kfreds: thats idea, but you can't control what other people do.
2714 2013-03-30 23:43:12 <gmaxwell> it would be unwise to delete themâ you could archive them so that your system isn't actively monitoring them anymore, I suppose.. but monitoring is fundimentally pretty cheap.
2715 2013-03-30 23:43:12 <warren> put all the old keys in a separate SPV wallet, encrypt and put it away. Then use <something else> as watch-only to let you know if anything is received at those addresses.
2716 2013-03-30 23:43:20 <gmaxwell> as warren says.
2717 2013-03-30 23:44:05 <Perdos> ah nice, i just figured out how to get full datestamps in xchat that are reasonably compact using strftime coding: %Y.%m.%d %H:%M.%S looks like this: 2013.03.31 01:21.23
2718 2013-03-30 23:44:21 <warren> If you don't care about privacy, you can query those addresses on an explorer once a day.
2719 2013-03-30 23:44:35 <Perdos> was just looking over scrollback and noticed times that were not today and i realised it would be nice to have more in there
2720 2013-03-30 23:44:44 <Perdos> i think i'll omit the year tho
2721 2013-03-30 23:45:04 <warren> (I'm not sure how to do a watch on a large number of arbitrary addresses while maintaining your privacy without running your own database....)
2722 2013-03-30 23:45:37 <gmaxwell> warren: it's not fundimentally hard, but the software isn't written for it right now.
2723 2013-03-30 23:45:41 <Perdos> warren: the only way to secure privacy is to run your own blockchain explorer type thingy
2724 2013-03-30 23:46:00 <gmaxwell> warren: you'd just run a spv bloom client. very cheap to run since it's only testing a bloom filter 99% of the time.
2725 2013-03-30 23:46:08 <CodeShark> or pull request 2121 :)
2726 2013-03-30 23:46:08 <Perdos> warren: code one up, i bet people would appreciate it
2727 2013-03-30 23:46:20 <warren> gmaxwell: oooh
2728 2013-03-30 23:46:54 <warren> This as a tool would to check for a paranoid and probably never to happen event.
2729 2013-03-30 23:47:00 <Perdos> kfreds: you have to use each address basically twice, one for receiving, one for sending, and then some more if the address is not emptied by the transaction
2730 2013-03-30 23:47:10 <warren> argh, grammar fail
2731 2013-03-30 23:47:36 <kfreds> warren: I've thought about doing that ever since I noticed the blocknotify option :)
2732 2013-03-30 23:47:37 <Perdos> maybe 'and unlikely event'?
2733 2013-03-30 23:48:27 <Perdos> er, or 'in an unlikely event' i mean
2734 2013-03-30 23:48:54 <Perdos> yay, back to having ops listed at the top of my userlist. handy to be able to find op's nicks quickly ^_^
2735 2013-03-30 23:49:25 <gmaxwell> Perdos: we're only staying opped in here right now because of the scam flooder guy
2736 2013-03-30 23:49:26 <warren> seems like a better idea to just donate all your old keys to <somewhere> and forget about it.
2737 2013-03-30 23:49:27 <kfreds> Perdos: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you can leave money at the address. Not using the whole input just gives the money to the miners. In the satoshi client, doesn't it get sent to a "loose change" address instead?
2738 2013-03-30 23:50:03 <gmaxwell> warren: or even someone who might buy them. e.g. buy keys that you can show had funds in them at some point (funds which are weakly linked to the keys they already bought)
2739 2013-03-30 23:50:08 <kfreds> warren: Not if you care about the privacy of your customers
2740 2013-03-30 23:50:47 <gmaxwell> kfreds: you could give them away one at a time slowly... e.g. connect to #bitcoin-keys via tor and just spit out a key and leave. :P
2741 2013-03-30 23:50:55 <gmaxwell> a lot of work to give something away though
2742 2013-03-30 23:50:59 <kfreds> lol
2743 2013-03-30 23:51:26 <kfreds> speaking of sending keys, is there a mixer yet that you can send your private keys to?
2744 2013-03-30 23:51:42 <Perdos> kfreds: i'm not sure, i'm pretty sure when bitcoin sends out coins it tries to exhaust all the addresses but if it can't, they are left with some balance and will be used in a future transaction. is that right gmaxwell ?
2745 2013-03-30 23:51:58 <warren> kfreds: plenty of places that will just say "thanks"
2746 2013-03-30 23:52:05 <kfreds> :)
2747 2013-03-30 23:52:07 <gmaxwell> Perdos: it does not, it probably should... but the software was written assuming you'd never reuse an address to begin with.
2748 2013-03-30 23:52:30 <Perdos> gmaxwell: it doesn't seem to encourage that kind of use particularly though
2749 2013-03-30 23:52:44 <gmaxwell> the rpc certantly does.
2750 2013-03-30 23:52:51 <gmaxwell> but you're right, the GUI needs work.
2751 2013-03-30 23:52:57 keystroke has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2752 2013-03-30 23:53:01 <Perdos> also some addresses you need to use repeatedly like for donations
2753 2013-03-30 23:53:12 <Perdos> gmaxwell: ah ok, so for online wallets it does, i see
2754 2013-03-30 23:53:22 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2755 2013-03-30 23:53:32 <gmaxwell> Perdos: ideally those should be done through BIP32 one time address generators. ... but yes, the coin selection should be smarter in many ways.
2756 2013-03-30 23:53:40 Archweasel has joined
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2758 2013-03-30 23:54:11 <Perdos> has anyone written an app for any platform that uses the RPC to run a wallet on a bitcoind elsewhere, (apart from web apps), that seems to me like a better way to do the client, with a backend/frontend type situation
2759 2013-03-30 23:54:38 <Perdos> would be cool to do that so you can run a bitcoind on your home pc and run a vpn to it for the app
2760 2013-03-30 23:54:41 grau has joined
2761 2013-03-30 23:54:57 <gmaxwell> Perdos: I keep trying to talk etotheipi into making armory work that way. :)
2762 2013-03-30 23:55:01 grau_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2763 2013-03-30 23:55:13 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2764 2013-03-30 23:55:22 Bjander has joined
2765 2013-03-30 23:55:28 <Perdos> a bit more secure for mobile apps too, cos then you can have the wallet not on the phone, nothing to hack then
2766 2013-03-30 23:55:45 <Perdos> just the connection, and if you lost your phone you just shut off the vpn tunnel, voila
2767 2013-03-30 23:55:50 stretchwarren has joined
2768 2013-03-30 23:56:18 johnsoft has joined
2769 2013-03-30 23:56:42 <CodeShark> I'd like to see signing implemented in cheap hardware :)
2770 2013-03-30 23:57:19 <Perdos> oh, i just realised this isn't #bitcoin *facepalm* :)
2771 2013-03-30 23:57:19 <CodeShark> I've written a secp256k1 signer for the ATMega256 :p
2772 2013-03-30 23:57:50 <CodeShark> but it isn't very practical yet - and not sure it will be
2773 2013-03-30 23:57:54 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: is it constant time?
2774 2013-03-30 23:58:02 <Perdos> i'm about to dip into modding intersango for running an exchange, so i might have some pertinent questions in the future :)
2775 2013-03-30 23:58:08 cyrozap has joined
2776 2013-03-30 23:58:17 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: yes
2777 2013-03-30 23:58:24 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: constant power?
2778 2013-03-30 23:58:34 <sipa> constant entropy?
2779 2013-03-30 23:58:40 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
2780 2013-03-30 23:58:46 <gmaxwell> (e.g. a busy loop at the end doesn't get you constant power even if it gets you constant time :P )
2781 2013-03-30 23:58:55 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: it can be made to execute the exact same set of instructions regardless of the input
2782 2013-03-30 23:59:01 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: very cool
2783 2013-03-30 23:59:25 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: that may not be constant time/power depending on the instructions, but perhaps on ATMega256 it is.. (no cache I guess? :P )
2784 2013-03-30 23:59:26 cyrozap has quit (Client Quit)
2785 2013-03-30 23:59:45 <CodeShark> no cache, gmaxwell - just 256k of flash
2786 2013-03-30 23:59:51 <CodeShark> and precomputed tables