1 2013-03-31 00:01:47 <CodeShark> I don't know whether the access patterns to the flash memory might leak information
2 2013-03-31 00:02:35 <gmaxwell> almost certantly. ... but epoxy the whole thing. :P
3 2013-03-31 00:03:16 <redeeman> some people do freaky stuff today
4 2013-03-31 00:03:33 <redeeman> i remember that article about a guy reading some old console games with a homemade microscope
5 2013-03-31 00:03:38 Michail1_ is now known as Michail1
6 2013-03-31 00:03:46 <redeeman> gutting the rom chip opening and looking at the bytes :)
7 2013-03-31 00:03:49 <redeeman> very hardcore
8 2013-03-31 00:04:21 <Perdos> CodeShark: that's a very interesting idea for a very small hardware wallet, would be cool if you could even make it RFID
9 2013-03-31 00:04:22 tralalaa has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
10 2013-03-31 00:04:36 <CodeShark> RFID is passive, no?
11 2013-03-31 00:05:02 <Perdos> CodeShark: yes, i mean for like a small touch-and-go type wallet for bitcoin
12 2013-03-31 00:05:09 <CodeShark> I'm actually not a big hardware guy - I just dabble a little in electronics
13 2013-03-31 00:05:12 <Perdos> maybe have it have a touch-switch to deactivate the radio
14 2013-03-31 00:05:35 <Perdos> er, i mean, so you have to hold it and apply pressure to connect the antenna to the circuit
15 2013-03-31 00:05:52 <gmaxwell> redeeman: well your threatmodel matters. e.g. for a hardware wallet signer dohicky, I'm not worried about a guy with a microscope, I'm mostly worried about a evil made who might borrow it for 60 seconds while I'm not looking.
16 2013-03-31 00:06:04 <Perdos> actually, that'd be really good for any kind of payment card, but the advantage here would be that you could load the card just by sending to an address and then the card has it as soon as it's confirmed
17 2013-03-31 00:06:13 <gmaxwell> and so expoxying it and making it immune to power and timing attacks is likely enough.
18 2013-03-31 00:06:15 <redeeman> gmaxwell, sure :)
19 2013-03-31 00:06:35 clr_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
20 2013-03-31 00:06:53 <Perdos> one problem with that idea i just proposed though is there's no way in the bitcoin protocol to stop it sending out, nor could it be encrypted being so tiny and passive
21 2013-03-31 00:07:06 <Perdos> on one side it could have it's wallet code too
22 2013-03-31 00:07:12 <Perdos> er, qr
23 2013-03-31 00:07:23 <lupine> would there be any interest in patches to make the stock bitcoin client have its current (bitcoin/litecoin/etc) selectable at runtime? or even multicurrency, concurrently?
24 2013-03-31 00:07:30 <lupine> this fork-the-client business gets my goat
25 2013-03-31 00:07:55 <CodeShark> the problem is that these different projects might fork anyhow
26 2013-03-31 00:08:05 <redeeman> im more interested in offline wallet mode support in the bitcoind/bitcoin-qt code
27 2013-03-31 00:08:17 <redeeman> and the addition of a simple offline app
28 2013-03-31 00:08:18 grau_ has joined
29 2013-03-31 00:08:23 <CodeShark> right now the main difference between bitcoin and litecoin is in the proof-of-work checking...but there are other subtle differences in rules that could lead to forks
30 2013-03-31 00:08:27 <sipa> lupine: if it's trivial to combine their source codes together, it probably wasn't worth forking in the first place
31 2013-03-31 00:08:27 <Perdos> lupine: i think the client should be forked to run as a client/server
32 2013-03-31 00:08:34 <Perdos> heh
33 2013-03-31 00:09:03 <Perdos> then you can run the wallet on a well connected, fast machine, and on slower machines and handhelds access the same wallet via vpn or connection within the network
34 2013-03-31 00:09:07 <warren> sipa: if bitcoin upstream would accept litecoin's trivial changes, I think litecoin would like that.
35 2013-03-31 00:09:11 lodse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
36 2013-03-31 00:09:19 <redeeman> Perdos, bitcoind already works though
37 2013-03-31 00:09:34 <lupine> mm, i've run it in client/server mode in the past
38 2013-03-31 00:09:51 <lupine> hell, you could do a quassel for the qt interface if you wanted to
39 2013-03-31 00:09:52 MC-Droid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
40 2013-03-31 00:09:54 <lupine> (I wouldn't)
41 2013-03-31 00:10:03 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
42 2013-03-31 00:10:04 <Perdos> redeeman: ya but i mean. well, a bundle package to set it up that way, a bit like tor/vidalia
43 2013-03-31 00:10:07 MC-Droid has joined
44 2013-03-31 00:10:12 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
45 2013-03-31 00:10:14 <lupine> it just annoys me having two different binaries when I know the changes are so minimal
46 2013-03-31 00:10:17 <Perdos> so the frontend can either connect to a configured bitcoind or launch one itself
47 2013-03-31 00:10:19 Bjander has joined
48 2013-03-31 00:10:31 <lupine> (not that it'd be a trivial refactoring to fix, of course)
49 2013-03-31 00:10:43 <Perdos> well, it's a project idea anyway. i probably will never do anything with it, who knows
50 2013-03-31 00:10:54 <lupine> and aren't litecoin et al stuck on the 0.6 client, forked?
51 2013-03-31 00:11:12 <warren> lupine: there's plans to rebase it to 0.8 soon
52 2013-03-31 00:11:13 <redeeman> i havent yet investigated the bitcoind/bitcoin-qt codebase, can any of you perhaps tell me upfront if it lends itself to easily supporting for instance not having private keys to facilitate offline wallet?
53 2013-03-31 00:11:21 <CodeShark> I have network tools that can do any bitcoin-like network - just changing the magic bytes and ports and stuff...but when you're talking about a validation engine, the rules can be quite distinct
54 2013-03-31 00:11:24 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
55 2013-03-31 00:11:42 <sipa> you'd probably want something like loadable modules for the validation engine
56 2013-03-31 00:11:42 <CodeShark> even if the underlying message structures are essentially the same
57 2013-03-31 00:11:47 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
58 2013-03-31 00:12:02 <sipa> something like freicoin where value depends on time, is even harder to make flexible
59 2013-03-31 00:12:05 <lupine> warren, if I were doing it, i'd probably try to extract the unique stuff into a .so, so that the litecoin et al-specific stuff would still be under the control of the devs
60 2013-03-31 00:12:11 <lupine> relevant devs*
61 2013-03-31 00:12:28 gldfsh has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
62 2013-03-31 00:12:34 Archweasel has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
63 2013-03-31 00:12:39 <sipa> personally, i'm a fan of alternate currencies to experiment with, but i haven't seen one that's interesting on itself yet
64 2013-03-31 00:12:46 <lupine> *shrug* it's an irritation ,but I don't know if it's *that* much of an irritation :D
65 2013-03-31 00:12:59 <sipa> i think if i'd ever start experimenting with on, the codebase would become very significantly different from bitcoin anyway
66 2013-03-31 00:13:21 <warren> I find it amusing that freicoin's documentation seems to be tinged socialist/communist rhetoric.
67 2013-03-31 00:13:59 <lupine> it has redistribution built in?
68 2013-03-31 00:14:03 <Luke-Jr> sipa: Freicoin looks pretty interesting
69 2013-03-31 00:14:09 <Luke-Jr> lupine: more or less
70 2013-03-31 00:14:14 <Luke-Jr> lupine: there's a tax for holding coins
71 2013-03-31 00:14:17 <warren> lupine: yes
72 2013-03-31 00:14:35 <lupine> sounds quite sensible
73 2013-03-31 00:15:01 <sipa> Luke-Jr: well, i'm no economist, and the economic part of the experiment isn't the most interesting for me :)
74 2013-03-31 00:15:13 * lupine makes a note to mine some
75 2013-03-31 00:15:34 <warren> Bitcoin demurrage: If all miners colluded, they could impose any tax they wanted. You have old coins you say? Let's collect back taxes or I won't confirm your tx.
76 2013-03-31 00:15:46 <Luke-Jr> sipa: exactly :p
77 2013-03-31 00:15:47 <sipa> warren: ?
78 2013-03-31 00:15:56 <Luke-Jr> sipa: they're using a decimal fp type for amounts
79 2013-03-31 00:16:07 <warren> sipa: another implausible implementation of Freicoin's demurrage tax
80 2013-03-31 00:16:09 Bjander has quit (Quit: Cellphone IRC... the worst kind...)
81 2013-03-31 00:16:24 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
82 2013-03-31 00:16:27 <lupine> well, once you've got the monopoly/cartel on mining, you can do worse things than that
83 2013-03-31 00:16:33 <lupine> for given values of "worse"
84 2013-03-31 00:16:51 <gmaxwell> warren: only works if most hashpower colludes to exclude other miners, and in particularâ honest users can just expend more energy than those guys do and put them out of business. Otherwise you just mine your own txn.
85 2013-03-31 00:17:00 copumpkin has joined
86 2013-03-31 00:17:15 <warren> gmaxwell: I did say implausible
87 2013-03-31 00:17:37 <lupine> I was saying in t'other channel earlier that monopolies are bound to show up transiently
88 2013-03-31 00:18:31 <lupine> we might see a bit of it fairly early in asic adoption
89 2013-03-31 00:18:51 <gmaxwell> well already some of these consolidations are figuring out that its bad business. :P
90 2013-03-31 00:19:03 <gmaxwell> notice asicminer's "oops getting lots of power in once place is hard"
91 2013-03-31 00:20:15 <lupine> hmm. we're getting a 1MW substation installed at work
92 2013-03-31 00:20:32 <lupine> i'm probably not allowed to load it up though
93 2013-03-31 00:21:06 <warren> lupine: it isn't just power, it's too much heat in a concentrated space
94 2013-03-31 00:21:08 uberdub has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
95 2013-03-31 00:21:37 space_cadet has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
96 2013-03-31 00:21:46 <gmaxwell> "mining cogeneration" :P
97 2013-03-31 00:22:12 <kfreds> Heating the bathroom floor is definitely my favorite :)
98 2013-03-31 00:22:17 <lupine> well, we're set up to be able to dissipate the entire MW :)
99 2013-03-31 00:22:32 <lupine> it's a datacentre build, but we're using it for hosting ,not bitcoins
100 2013-03-31 00:23:07 <warren> One of those mining companies added GPU's to each of his servers.
101 2013-03-31 00:23:07 uberdub has joined
102 2013-03-31 00:23:31 <gmaxwell> kfreds: yea, who was it that did that?
103 2013-03-31 00:23:56 <lupine> I tried to get work to stick AMD processors into our VM hosts and make them available as a resource
104 2013-03-31 00:24:01 <lupine> erm, GPUs
105 2013-03-31 00:24:13 <lupine> so aspiring miners could rent them from us
106 2013-03-31 00:24:19 <kfreds> gmaxwell: Don't know, but his wife supposedly nagged him to install another graphics card. She wanted a warmer floor :D
107 2013-03-31 00:24:30 <lupine> they didn't bite this time around
108 2013-03-31 00:24:34 <warren> lupine: the drivers are so unstable, the miners would need a way to remote power cycle
109 2013-03-31 00:24:55 <kfreds> Here we go: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=155841.0
110 2013-03-31 00:25:26 <skinnkavaj> I really cant understand what kind of people are attacking bitcoins with DDos
111 2013-03-31 00:25:51 space_cadet has joined
112 2013-03-31 00:25:58 <skinnkavaj> Wrong channel
113 2013-03-31 00:27:01 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: where was that intended and what are you talking about?
114 2013-03-31 00:27:56 grau_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
115 2013-03-31 00:28:21 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: http://pastebin.com/h7iGK49T <- Apperently there are some nerds trying to DDos and create chaos on monday
116 2013-03-31 00:29:05 grau has joined
117 2013-03-31 00:29:12 <CodeShark> operation april foolscoin? lol
118 2013-03-31 00:29:20 <skinnkavaj> I cant understand since the nerds that even know how to ddos should like bitcoin.. maybe its people behind alterantive coins trying to do it?
119 2013-03-31 00:29:54 <Perdos> what losers
120 2013-03-31 00:29:55 <warren> skinnkavaj: could be people wanting a crash so they can buy
121 2013-03-31 00:30:10 Gnaf has joined
122 2013-03-31 00:30:25 <Perdos> skinnkavaj: i've heard rumours about this kind of nonsense, bitcoin people talking about doing the same to ltc
123 2013-03-31 00:30:27 <skinnkavaj> But to get the mainstream media to write bad things about bitcoins will just be a loss in the future
124 2013-03-31 00:30:31 <Perdos> idiotic
125 2013-03-31 00:30:34 DaQatz has joined
126 2013-03-31 00:30:49 <skinnkavaj> Pure idiotic, it really defeats what we are trying to archieve here
127 2013-03-31 00:31:02 <Perdos> heh, anyway, #bitcoin i thinks, not topical for this chan
128 2013-03-31 00:31:14 <warren> We're past the point of a temporary attack causing a loss of confidence. The March 12th hardfork had no lasting impact on the exchange rate.
129 2013-03-31 00:31:21 <Perdos> skinnkavaj: short sighted greedy/stupid morons
130 2013-03-31 00:31:23 <gmaxwell> oh, you're the same person who was promoting that in #bitcoin too.
131 2013-03-31 00:31:31 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: you claimed to not be involved with it.
132 2013-03-31 00:31:40 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: but then why are you mentioning it elsewhere?
133 2013-03-31 00:31:59 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: I'm not, but since you asked for it i posted it again...
134 2013-03-31 00:32:11 grau_ has joined
135 2013-03-31 00:32:13 <skinnkavaj> I just want to discuss how we can prevent and avoid it..
136 2013-03-31 00:32:22 <Perdos> warren: but an attack on an exchange might enable a double spend attack
137 2013-03-31 00:32:41 grau has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
138 2013-03-31 00:33:03 <Perdos> skinnkavaj: it's unlikely that such attacks could yield a great deal
139 2013-03-31 00:33:08 <Perdos> but then again
140 2013-03-31 00:33:09 <gmaxwell> Perdos: uh... no.
141 2013-03-31 00:33:18 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: where is this being discussed?
142 2013-03-31 00:33:33 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: It was posten on reddit
143 2013-03-31 00:33:38 <skinnkavaj> posted*
144 2013-03-31 00:33:38 <Perdos> exchanges should look for synchronised activity with DDoS and pay close attention to all tx's going on at the same time that could be users seeking to do the double spend attack
145 2013-03-31 00:33:38 <HM> you know you're in trouble when even Clangs C++ errors make no sense
146 2013-03-31 00:33:41 <skinnkavaj> I dont know more
147 2013-03-31 00:33:42 <Perdos> or whatever it's called
148 2013-03-31 00:33:54 <warren> There's lots of people using hollow threats to cause panic like this. Some guy posted a bounty that promised to pay $1,500 for a successful attack.
149 2013-03-31 00:33:56 <CodeShark> what does DoS have to do with double-spend attacks?
150 2013-03-31 00:35:56 <CodeShark> HM: you have some syntax errors in your templates? :)
151 2013-03-31 00:36:08 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: makes for exciting fud!
152 2013-03-31 00:36:13 qwertyoruiop has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
153 2013-03-31 00:36:17 <CodeShark> lol gmaxwell
154 2013-03-31 00:36:21 <HM> I have a template that takes a std::function<T const&>
155 2013-03-31 00:36:32 <HM> i want to be able to pass a lambda to it that does an assignment
156 2013-03-31 00:36:47 <HM> since std c++ apparently lacks a convenient functor for assignment
157 2013-03-31 00:36:58 <HM> -_-
158 2013-03-31 00:37:13 <CodeShark> use Lisp :p
159 2013-03-31 00:38:02 gagecolton has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
160 2013-03-31 00:40:00 <HM> yay
161 2013-03-31 00:40:24 <HM> if in doubt, type the types out explicitly
162 2013-03-31 00:40:59 <CodeShark> nested templates are horrifically difficult to read
163 2013-03-31 00:41:30 <HM> this isn't that bad
164 2013-03-31 00:42:17 Keefe has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
165 2013-03-31 00:42:29 Keefe has joined
166 2013-03-31 00:43:39 <muhoo> yay lisp
167 2013-03-31 00:44:07 <HM> i just need to fix the api
168 2013-03-31 00:44:10 <HM> because it's ugly
169 2013-03-31 00:44:28 hyperjacker has joined
170 2013-03-31 00:44:28 <muhoo> greenspun's law
171 2013-03-31 00:44:44 <CodeShark> his 10th one? :)
172 2013-03-31 00:45:36 <muhoo> ya
173 2013-03-31 00:45:38 <HM> lol
174 2013-03-31 00:45:44 <hyperjacker> is there any asic chip I can buy similiar to the ones used in the butterfly labs boxes? so i can just make my own?
175 2013-03-31 00:45:44 <HM> i have a friend who would love that law
176 2013-03-31 00:49:00 <muhoo> the mining biz is locked up asucs aren't widely avail, but buying non-asic hardware is risky since the asics will wipe them out, IIUC
177 2013-03-31 00:50:01 qwertyoruiop has joined
178 2013-03-31 00:50:37 dvide has quit ()
179 2013-03-31 00:51:18 <muhoo> since i don't have a TARDIS, i'm locked out.
180 2013-03-31 00:51:48 <muhoo> i recommend buying california real estate in 1978, tho
181 2013-03-31 00:51:58 Mroldan has joined
182 2013-03-31 00:53:03 space_cadet has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
183 2013-03-31 00:54:16 <muhoo> hyperjacker: more info in #bitcoin-mining, if you want
184 2013-03-31 00:55:32 eduardo_ has joined
185 2013-03-31 00:58:15 Mroldan has quit (Quit: Page closed)
186 2013-03-31 00:58:27 naxxatoe has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
187 2013-03-31 00:58:35 LainZ has joined
188 2013-03-31 00:58:51 <eduardo_> Hi! i'm developing a btc application using Blockchain API. Does anyone know if it's frequent such high response time (Callbacks) ?
189 2013-03-31 00:59:53 <Luke-Jr> nobody here likes blockchain.info, email their support
190 2013-03-31 01:00:16 <kfreds> lol
191 2013-03-31 01:00:28 <eduardo_> Hi Luke. do you know any other API better than Blockchain's?
192 2013-03-31 01:00:37 <kfreds> Luke-Jr: Why don't you like them?
193 2013-03-31 01:00:46 <Luke-Jr> eduardo_: BitPay?
194 2013-03-31 01:01:03 <Luke-Jr> kfreds: they grossly misrepresent Bitcoin to people, and spread confusion
195 2013-03-31 01:01:07 <eduardo_> I've emailed them many times but they've not answered on any one of my questions
196 2013-03-31 01:02:22 <kfreds> Luke-Jr: Really? I'm sure you've gotten this question before, but care to give an example? I don't really pay that much attention to the different players.
197 2013-03-31 01:02:26 darkee has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
198 2013-03-31 01:02:37 toffoo has quit ()
199 2013-03-31 01:02:48 <eduardo_> BitPay? Ok, I'll try to find their documentation and give them a try
200 2013-03-31 01:03:17 <kfreds> I only have good impressions from them. I only use their website, and it works well.
201 2013-03-31 01:03:20 <Luke-Jr> kfreds: they promote the DP attack against Bitcoin, firstbits nonsense, the myth of the "from" address, etc
202 2013-03-31 01:04:10 <kfreds> Luke-Jr: DP attack?
203 2013-03-31 01:05:09 <eduardo_> Luke, thanks for your information. I really appreciate it. I got to know bitcoins last week and I'm really enthusiastic with the idea of developing an application using them
204 2013-03-31 01:05:39 <Luke-Jr> kfreds: yes, it's a flood attack trying to slow down bitcoin and bloat it
205 2013-03-31 01:05:44 blaeks has joined
206 2013-03-31 01:07:24 <kfreds> Luke-Jr: I've googled a bit but I don't understand what attack you're talking about. Can you be more technically specific? What does the abbreviation DP stand for?
207 2013-03-31 01:07:44 <Luke-Jr> Dead Puppies
208 2013-03-31 01:07:46 <warren> kfreds: http://pastebin.com/ng9nF4K3
209 2013-03-31 01:09:40 <kfreds> I'm sorry, but that makes no sense at all. Just a wild guess, are you talking about single satoshi transactions like from Satoshi Dice?
210 2013-03-31 01:10:21 <Luke-Jr> Satoshi Dice = Dead Puppies
211 2013-03-31 01:11:29 <kfreds> Thank you.
212 2013-03-31 01:11:38 <Anduck> hmm
213 2013-03-31 01:12:07 <Anduck> is bitcoind scalable? can i request stuff from it like 5000q/s?
214 2013-03-31 01:12:25 <jgarzik> Anduck: depends on the query
215 2013-03-31 01:12:36 <Anduck> or do i need to cache data from bitcoind to for example mysql like every 5-10 sec
216 2013-03-31 01:12:46 <Anduck> account balance query for example?
217 2013-03-31 01:14:50 darkee has joined
218 2013-03-31 01:15:15 <Anduck> like, can i request account balance from bitcoind everytime page is loaded or would it be better to cache it to mysql?
219 2013-03-31 01:15:48 <Anduck> i guess i'll go with caching to mysql since it sounds betterš
220 2013-03-31 01:15:58 rdymac has joined
221 2013-03-31 01:17:18 <Luke-Jr> Anduck: MySQL isn't really scalable either :P
222 2013-03-31 01:17:33 <Anduck> why?
223 2013-03-31 01:17:46 <Anduck> it's not the best but i think it's pretty scalable still
224 2013-03-31 01:17:52 <Luke-Jr> tried to use it for Eligius way back
225 2013-03-31 01:17:54 <skinnkavaj> Can anyone explain this graph? http://blockchain.info/charts/bitcoin-days-destroyed
226 2013-03-31 01:17:59 <skinnkavaj> What does it mean?
227 2013-03-31 01:18:02 <Luke-Jr> it was always corrupting its own database
228 2013-03-31 01:18:02 <Anduck> postgreSQL would be the best i guess but meh..
229 2013-03-31 01:18:05 <Anduck> huh
230 2013-03-31 01:18:07 grau_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
231 2013-03-31 01:18:09 <Anduck> what engine you used?
232 2013-03-31 01:19:12 <Luke-Jr> tried both IIRC
233 2013-03-31 01:20:04 <Anduck> huh
234 2013-03-31 01:20:14 <Anduck> so now you're using Postgresql?
235 2013-03-31 01:20:29 <Luke-Jr> yes
236 2013-03-31 01:21:49 <kermit_> postgresql is cool, but its superheavyweight and lacks good backup and restore proceudres
237 2013-03-31 01:22:48 <Anduck> i thought postgresql is light
238 2013-03-31 01:23:01 <Anduck> kermit_: what do you recommend?
239 2013-03-31 01:23:19 grau has joined
240 2013-03-31 01:25:07 <kermit_> well, gmaxwell banned me once for mentioning oracle
241 2013-03-31 01:25:14 <kermit_> so i wont mention it)))
242 2013-03-31 01:25:27 grau_ has joined
243 2013-03-31 01:25:56 <Anduck> uhh
244 2013-03-31 01:26:01 <Anduck> oracle..
245 2013-03-31 01:26:03 <Anduck> how about no
246 2013-03-31 01:26:17 <Stimpy> anyone eu fait with the libbBitcoin API?
247 2013-03-31 01:26:32 <Anduck> could be nice but what theyve done with java..
248 2013-03-31 01:26:34 grau_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
249 2013-03-31 01:27:37 <kermit_> the thing is you cannot f-around with your data, this has to work 100 % of the time
250 2013-03-31 01:27:40 <kermit_> you db that is
251 2013-03-31 01:27:52 <kermit_> so filesystem corrupetion, whatever, it needs to be restorable
252 2013-03-31 01:27:56 <kermit_> or failover
253 2013-03-31 01:28:13 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
254 2013-03-31 01:28:17 <kermit_> you cannot get any (and this is the simple truth) db to have this kind of protection mechanism as the big O
255 2013-03-31 01:28:51 <kermit_> with the Oracle11gR2 features,.., its a breaze to implement
256 2013-03-31 01:31:01 <Anduck> well uh
257 2013-03-31 01:31:14 <Anduck> i googled postgresql.. "Hot backups and point-in-time recovery"
258 2013-03-31 01:31:15 <kermit_> anyway, my implementation is to load the tx pieces as seperate blocks in to blobs
259 2013-03-31 01:31:36 <sipa> the full transactions?
260 2013-03-31 01:31:38 <kermit_> yeah, postgresql had "tablespaces" too, (whwhaaa)
261 2013-03-31 01:31:41 <kermit_> to funny
262 2013-03-31 01:31:48 <kermit_> yup,
263 2013-03-31 01:31:58 <sipa> ... why?
264 2013-03-31 01:32:16 <kermit_> the blob storage is stellar,.., (look up basicfile vs securefile types)
265 2013-03-31 01:32:33 <kermit_> I want to harvest the blockchain for all kinds of info, it is a general ledger
266 2013-03-31 01:32:44 <sipa> ok, carry o
267 2013-03-31 01:32:46 grau has joined
268 2013-03-31 01:35:56 grau_ has joined
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270 2013-03-31 01:37:17 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
271 2013-03-31 01:37:44 amantonop has joined
272 2013-03-31 01:38:17 <kermit_> with oracle you can have Rack, there is a broker (jms) you cant imagine what kind of sweets and candy you can unleash on data
273 2013-03-31 01:38:41 <kermit_> rack (mulitple compu;s acting as one db)
274 2013-03-31 01:40:07 grau has joined
275 2013-03-31 01:41:03 grau has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
276 2013-03-31 01:43:33 kalleboo has joined
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278 2013-03-31 01:44:23 kbo has joined
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280 2013-03-31 01:48:18 nova90 has joined
281 2013-03-31 01:49:31 grau has joined
282 2013-03-31 01:50:43 <kermit_> oracle has a very steep learning curve, unfortunatly
283 2013-03-31 01:50:56 <kermit_> to make a good solution will take intimate knowledge of the product
284 2013-03-31 01:51:26 nova907767 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
285 2013-03-31 01:51:52 <sipa> can you take this to #oraclerocks or so?
286 2013-03-31 01:55:59 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
287 2013-03-31 01:57:02 <kermit_> why do people hate oracle?
288 2013-03-31 01:57:09 <kermit_> is there a rational for this?
289 2013-03-31 01:57:32 <kermit_> ferrari is just a good car, whats wrong with that?
290 2013-03-31 01:57:44 <sipa> nothing wrong; just off-topic here
291 2013-03-31 01:58:01 <kermit_> ferraris are offtopic yes
292 2013-03-31 01:58:17 bot38 has quit ()
293 2013-03-31 01:58:20 <kermit_> have a good db to store your data, (Wallet, blockchain et all) dont see how this is offtopic
294 2013-03-31 01:58:29 <sipa> so are long monologues about the quality of database systems
295 2013-03-31 01:58:30 <kermit_> postgresql was on topic?
296 2013-03-31 01:58:33 <kermit_> hmmm
297 2013-03-31 02:00:12 <Anduck> how much bitcoind eats ram?
298 2013-03-31 02:00:28 <sipa> Anduck: a lot, especially when you have many connections
299 2013-03-31 02:00:33 <sipa> Anduck: though we're working on that
300 2013-03-31 02:00:34 <Anduck> f.eq. how much ram vps needs to run bitcoind?
301 2013-03-31 02:00:37 <Anduck> aight,cool!
302 2013-03-31 02:00:49 <sipa> right now, I'd suggest 1 GB
303 2013-03-31 02:00:58 grau has joined
304 2013-03-31 02:01:05 <Anduck> for a mysql/psql + apache/nginx running..?
305 2013-03-31 02:01:30 <Anduck> and the site being actively used all the time
306 2013-03-31 02:01:34 <Anduck> maybe 2gb?
307 2013-03-31 02:01:47 <Anduck> i think i'll go with 3 GB
308 2013-03-31 02:01:51 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
309 2013-03-31 02:01:55 <sipa> i have irssi + lighttpd + bitcoind + dnsseed + some cronjobs, on 2 GiB
310 2013-03-31 02:04:57 twobitcoins_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
311 2013-03-31 02:05:22 twobitcoins_ has joined
312 2013-03-31 02:08:02 <HM> nginx is my preference over lighttpd
313 2013-03-31 02:08:55 <CodeShark> I oppose all software products that have unpronounceable names
314 2013-03-31 02:09:38 <Anduck> engine-x?
315 2013-03-31 02:11:12 kjdsfjdkfds has joined
316 2013-03-31 02:11:44 Anduck has quit ()
317 2013-03-31 02:12:00 Anduck has joined
318 2013-03-31 02:12:00 Anduck has quit (Changing host)
319 2013-03-31 02:12:00 Anduck has joined
320 2013-03-31 02:12:35 <HM> CodeShark: right, because httpd sounds real sweet
321 2013-03-31 02:13:00 <HM> light h-tea-tea-pee-dee
322 2013-03-31 02:13:31 <kjdsfjdkfds> last block was 38 minutes ago?
323 2013-03-31 02:13:35 tvbcof_ has joined
324 2013-03-31 02:16:26 <muhoo> sipa: how badly does it swap when first dl'ing the chain?
325 2013-03-31 02:17:00 Gnaf has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130307023931])
326 2013-03-31 02:18:29 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
327 2013-03-31 02:19:43 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
328 2013-03-31 02:19:55 <bergle> wouldnt it be light - te pe de?
329 2013-03-31 02:20:31 o3u has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
330 2013-03-31 02:20:45 XRPTrader2 has quit (Quit: XRPTrader2)
331 2013-03-31 02:21:28 <sipa> muhoo: ?
332 2013-03-31 02:22:28 <muhoo> syncing
333 2013-03-31 02:22:53 dxbydt has joined
334 2013-03-31 02:22:55 <muhoo> i tried running bitcoind on a machine with 1GB RAM. it was... submoptimal
335 2013-03-31 02:22:57 amantonop has left ()
336 2013-03-31 02:23:58 kadoban has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
337 2013-03-31 02:24:23 <sipa> muhoo: i have slow I/O, but i don't think it swaps during sync
338 2013-03-31 02:24:49 <sipa> even before recent patches, i never went above ~900 MiB RES
339 2013-03-31 02:24:59 <sipa> now it's closer to 300 :P
340 2013-03-31 02:25:40 <warren> muhoo: make a ramdisk on a machine on the local network. export it as NBD to the machine with 1GB RAM. nbd-client, mkswap, swapon
341 2013-03-31 02:27:41 <warren> I have lots of other bad advice available.
342 2013-03-31 02:28:23 <CodeShark> does any of it involve sharp, pointy objects?
343 2013-03-31 02:28:42 <BlueMatt> Im pretty sure swap over nbd qualifies as sharp, pointy objects
344 2013-03-31 02:29:22 Lexx_ has joined
345 2013-03-31 02:29:50 rdymac has joined
346 2013-03-31 02:30:01 <sipa> BlueMatt: i've once seen a setup with a RAID1 over localdisk + NDBdisk, managed by a script that detected which computer was first, and made that one master, and the other the slave that just exported one disk over NDB
347 2013-03-31 02:30:24 <sipa> bonus points if you can guess what happened
348 2013-03-31 02:30:44 <CodeShark> does it involve an open window on a highrise?
349 2013-03-31 02:30:45 <BlueMatt> caught fire?
350 2013-03-31 02:31:03 <sipa> BlueMatt: nope
351 2013-03-31 02:31:13 <BlueMatt> had to get fs corruption
352 2013-03-31 02:31:15 <warren> I can see how that can corrupt itself
353 2013-03-31 02:31:18 grau has joined
354 2013-03-31 02:31:20 <sipa> nope, no FS corruption!
355 2013-03-31 02:31:30 <BlueMatt> ran perfectly with no problems!
356 2013-03-31 02:31:35 <sipa> one of the machines went down, and nobody noticed
357 2013-03-31 02:31:44 <sipa> then there was a power failure, and the other went down
358 2013-03-31 02:31:51 <BlueMatt> hah
359 2013-03-31 02:31:56 <sipa> power came back up, and the one that had been down for 3 weeks was started first
360 2013-03-31 02:31:59 <warren> then the old one came up first?
361 2013-03-31 02:32:02 <sipa> yup!
362 2013-03-31 02:32:05 <warren> lost data then
363 2013-03-31 02:32:05 <sipa> 3 weeks data lost
364 2013-03-31 02:32:06 <BlueMatt> haha
365 2013-03-31 02:32:09 grau has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
366 2013-03-31 02:32:23 <warren> the script could easily read a timestamp somewhere before choosing which is master
367 2013-03-31 02:32:29 <sipa> i could have :)
368 2013-03-31 02:32:38 <warren> that was you!? =)
369 2013-03-31 02:32:40 <BlueMatt> wait...this was on something you managed?
370 2013-03-31 02:32:47 <warren> sipa: how was performance?
371 2013-03-31 02:32:51 <CodeShark> I was close :)
372 2013-03-31 02:32:53 atweiden has joined
373 2013-03-31 02:33:07 <sipa> BlueMatt: it was something i managed, but before my time :)
374 2013-03-31 02:33:12 * BlueMatt goes to move all his data off google
375 2013-03-31 02:33:22 <sipa> BlueMatt: it was at a student hosting org
376 2013-03-31 02:33:28 <BlueMatt> heh, alright
377 2013-03-31 02:33:30 Lexx has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
378 2013-03-31 02:34:02 <sipa> when i joined, we changed it to one decent fileserver with 2 local disks in RAID, and a dedicated backup machine
379 2013-03-31 02:34:12 <BlueMatt> ahh, ok good
380 2013-03-31 02:34:23 uberdub has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
381 2013-03-31 02:34:30 <sipa> oh, now i see the confusion
382 2013-03-31 02:34:36 <sipa> 04:10:39 <@sipa> i could have :)
383 2013-03-31 02:34:44 <sipa> that should have been "it could have"
384 2013-03-31 02:34:48 <BlueMatt> also, what are you doing up at 4?
385 2013-03-31 02:34:55 <sipa> coding?
386 2013-03-31 02:35:02 <BlueMatt> dont you have work on monday or something?
387 2013-03-31 02:35:09 <sipa> no :)
388 2013-03-31 02:35:14 <sipa> public holiday
389 2013-03-31 02:35:17 <BlueMatt> ahh, ok well then go on coding!
390 2013-03-31 02:35:25 <sipa> also, it's only sunday morning
391 2013-03-31 02:35:47 o3u has joined
392 2013-03-31 02:35:59 * BlueMatt cant stand going to bed at 4 on weekends when he has to get up at like 8 on weekdays...so he goes to bed at like 3
393 2013-03-31 02:36:02 viperhr has joined
394 2013-03-31 02:36:29 <BlueMatt> F%@!%&ing Java
395 2013-03-31 02:37:25 <CodeShark> I've often felt the same way
396 2013-03-31 02:37:38 grau has joined
397 2013-03-31 02:39:05 Stimpy has quit ()
398 2013-03-31 02:39:23 viperhr1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
399 2013-03-31 02:41:58 <CodeShark> as if we need yet another dumbed-down C++ :p
400 2013-03-31 02:42:13 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
401 2013-03-31 02:42:15 <BlueMatt> heh, yes
402 2013-03-31 02:42:22 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
403 2013-03-31 02:45:13 wizkid057 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
404 2013-03-31 02:48:46 gdsl_afk is now known as gdsl
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419 2013-03-31 03:04:04 wizkid057 has quit (Client Quit)
420 2013-03-31 03:04:06 xorgate has quit (Client Quit)
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423 2013-03-31 03:07:04 bernard75 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
424 2013-03-31 03:08:05 <muhoo> BlueMatt: amen, brother
425 2013-03-31 03:10:30 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
426 2013-03-31 03:11:38 <warren> sipa: Those two machines had the same IP address?
427 2013-03-31 03:12:24 <sipa> warren: no idea
428 2013-03-31 03:12:35 * warren wondering how nobody noticed one of the machines being down
429 2013-03-31 03:12:49 <sipa> inadequate monitoring?
430 2013-03-31 03:13:08 <warren> I mean, how can you not notice your hosting service is down?
431 2013-03-31 03:13:18 <sipa> it wasn't
432 2013-03-31 03:13:43 bolapara_ has joined
433 2013-03-31 03:13:44 <sipa> only the slave fileserver was, and as it only provided an NBD device to the master, which gracefully went into degraded mode, nothing was wrong
434 2013-03-31 03:14:22 bolapara__ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
435 2013-03-31 03:15:13 <warren> oh. storage.
436 2013-03-31 03:16:03 quaz0r has joined
437 2013-03-31 03:20:43 Goonie has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
438 2013-03-31 03:21:30 berni23 is now known as bernard75
439 2013-03-31 03:22:26 grau has joined
440 2013-03-31 03:23:18 gdsl is now known as gdsl_afk
441 2013-03-31 03:23:23 grau has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
442 2013-03-31 03:24:37 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
443 2013-03-31 03:24:50 TheButterZone has joined
444 2013-03-31 03:26:19 metabyte has quit ()
445 2013-03-31 03:26:42 <lianj> last block an hour ago, meh
446 2013-03-31 03:27:11 bernard75 has quit ()
447 2013-03-31 03:27:19 <sipa> ;;bc,tslb
448 2013-03-31 03:27:20 <gribble> Error: "bc,tslb" is not a valid command.
449 2013-03-31 03:27:28 <sipa> ;;bc,tblb 1h
450 2013-03-31 03:27:30 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
451 2013-03-31 03:29:51 coolfengyu has joined
452 2013-03-31 03:30:13 hnz has joined
453 2013-03-31 03:33:51 <TheButterZone> ,,bc,tslb
454 2013-03-31 03:33:51 <gribble> Error: "bc,tslb" is not a valid command.
455 2013-03-31 03:33:56 <TheButterZone> seriously
456 2013-03-31 03:34:10 <TheLordOfTime> ;;tslb
457 2013-03-31 03:34:13 <gribble> Time since last block: 58 minutes and 17 seconds
458 2013-03-31 03:36:38 PhantomSpark has joined
459 2013-03-31 03:37:05 uberdub has joined
460 2013-03-31 03:38:09 grau has joined
461 2013-03-31 03:38:56 grau has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
462 2013-03-31 03:39:27 amantonop has joined
463 2013-03-31 03:39:45 <EvilPete> 63 minutes now.. damn it, wtb blocks :)
464 2013-03-31 03:39:48 Gnaf has joined
465 2013-03-31 03:40:08 dxbydt has quit (Quit: dxbydt)
466 2013-03-31 03:40:31 <Jere_Jones> Ask and ye shall receive
467 2013-03-31 03:40:34 <Jere_Jones> ;;tslb
468 2013-03-31 03:40:38 <gribble> Time since last block: 1 minute and 5 seconds
469 2013-03-31 03:41:24 <kjdsfjdkfds> is sometimes longer blockchain creation a common event or an artifact of higher hash difficulties?
470 2013-03-31 03:41:31 dxbydt has joined
471 2013-03-31 03:41:57 <BlueMatt> block times are a statistical distribution
472 2013-03-31 03:42:03 <BlueMatt> so, yes, it happens
473 2013-03-31 03:42:17 grau has joined
474 2013-03-31 03:42:41 <sipa> kjdsfjdkfds: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exponential_distribution :)
475 2013-03-31 03:42:54 <EvilPete> Yep, its mostly luck.. but when 30-40% of hashpower is tied to one pool, bad things can happen if something stops working
476 2013-03-31 03:43:13 <kjdsfjdkfds> thanks
477 2013-03-31 03:43:20 grau has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
478 2013-03-31 03:43:43 <EvilPete> that being btcguild having 36% of global hashpower from mar 24th through today.
479 2013-03-31 03:44:19 <cornfeedhobo> does anyone know what happened to the VouchX coupons? they were working fine and now they dont seem to be working at any exchange
480 2013-03-31 03:48:26 nx201 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
481 2013-03-31 03:50:30 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
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484 2013-03-31 03:53:04 fishfish has joined
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493 2013-03-31 04:02:05 grau has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
494 2013-03-31 04:02:57 XRPTrader2 has quit (Quit: XRPTrader2)
495 2013-03-31 04:05:02 brson has quit (Quit: leaving)
496 2013-03-31 04:06:16 grau has joined
497 2013-03-31 04:06:42 <BlueMatt> sipa: ok, finally updated secp256k1 java thinggyu
498 2013-03-31 04:07:22 grau has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
499 2013-03-31 04:08:03 <BlueMatt> sipa: ahh, what did you do, now I get segfault....
500 2013-03-31 04:08:20 guruvan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
501 2013-03-31 04:09:09 RazielXYZ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
502 2013-03-31 04:09:38 <sipa> BlueMatt: do bench and test work?
503 2013-03-31 04:10:03 <BlueMatt> yes :(
504 2013-03-31 04:10:16 dxbydt has quit (Quit: dxbydt)
505 2013-03-31 04:10:24 nanotube has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
506 2013-03-31 04:10:24 gribble has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
507 2013-03-31 04:10:27 <BlueMatt> but I segfault in libgmp
508 2013-03-31 04:11:07 <CodeShark> valgrind?
509 2013-03-31 04:11:21 amantonop has quit (Quit: amantonop)
510 2013-03-31 04:11:28 <BlueMatt> run java in valgrind?
511 2013-03-31 04:11:42 <CodeShark> oh, nvm
512 2013-03-31 04:11:55 <CodeShark> I suppose you could :p
513 2013-03-31 04:12:08 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: add loops to scan over all the input data and printf it. see if it moves the crash. Take the data that gets printfed at the crash and move it into the bench tool.
514 2013-03-31 04:12:29 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: was already working on that...
515 2013-03-31 04:16:24 <jgarzik> sipa/gmaxwell: is #2409 looking good under valgrind?
516 2013-03-31 04:16:30 <sipa> jgarzik: yes
517 2013-03-31 04:16:34 <jgarzik> (network optimizations pull req)
518 2013-03-31 04:16:35 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: yes
519 2013-03-31 04:17:57 <gmaxwell> I'm not yet at as much uptime since the last bug as the maximum gap between bugs found yet. :P
520 2013-03-31 04:18:03 johnsoft has joined
521 2013-03-31 04:18:11 <gmaxwell> if someone was eager to pull it onto master I wouldn't object, but we can't release it yet.
522 2013-03-31 04:18:23 nanotube has joined
523 2013-03-31 04:19:20 gribble has joined
524 2013-03-31 04:20:32 johnsoft1 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
525 2013-03-31 04:21:16 Gnaf has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
526 2013-03-31 04:22:44 zylche_ has quit (Changing host)
527 2013-03-31 04:22:44 zylche_ has joined
528 2013-03-31 04:23:37 <CodeShark> isn't Java supposidely designed so that segfaults are practically impossible? :)
529 2013-03-31 04:23:44 <BlueMatt> its in native code
530 2013-03-31 04:24:16 <BlueMatt> and Ive seen segfaults in java jvms plenty
531 2013-03-31 04:24:35 <sipa> i've known javac segfaulting :p
532 2013-03-31 04:24:47 <BlueMatt> damn
533 2013-03-31 04:25:01 <jgarzik> People still use VMs?
534 2013-03-31 04:25:08 * jgarzik looks at gcj and LLVM
535 2013-03-31 04:25:16 <sipa> (it was in 1.3, and 1.4 fixed it)
536 2013-03-31 04:25:54 wizkid057 has joined
537 2013-03-31 04:28:22 XRPTrader2 has joined
538 2013-03-31 04:28:45 <jgarzik> Pulled. Let's see wider testing.
539 2013-03-31 04:29:45 bitcoin122 has joined
540 2013-03-31 04:31:17 Garr255 has joined
541 2013-03-31 04:31:18 Garr255 has quit (Changing host)
542 2013-03-31 04:31:18 Garr255 has joined
543 2013-03-31 04:32:29 realazthat has joined
544 2013-03-31 04:33:01 <realazthat> are the block indices used by the API zero-based? such that getblockcount() returns top index +1?
545 2013-03-31 04:33:25 <sipa> i think that getblockcount returns the height of the tip block
546 2013-03-31 04:34:15 <realazthat> and height == index right?
547 2013-03-31 04:34:21 <sipa> indeed
548 2013-03-31 04:35:25 <realazthat> ty
549 2013-03-31 04:36:22 LainZ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
550 2013-03-31 04:36:53 da2ce7_d has joined
551 2013-03-31 04:37:39 <sipa> jgarzik: ACK on #2422?
552 2013-03-31 04:38:31 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
553 2013-03-31 04:38:50 TriNitroToluene has joined
554 2013-03-31 04:39:02 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #259: ABORTED in 1 day 19 hr: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/259/
555 2013-03-31 04:39:15 <sipa> ewww
556 2013-03-31 04:39:30 <BlueMatt> sorry
557 2013-03-31 04:39:36 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #260: ABORTED in 20 sec: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/260/
558 2013-03-31 04:39:46 <BlueMatt> BlueMattBot: stop trying it aint gonna work
559 2013-03-31 04:39:47 <BlueMattBot> BlueMatt you may not issue bot commands in this chat!
560 2013-03-31 04:39:54 <BlueMatt> ugg
561 2013-03-31 04:40:20 <jgarzik> BlueMattBot: Say what? Chronicles of Narnia!
562 2013-03-31 04:40:21 <BlueMattBot> jgarzik you may not issue bot commands in this chat!
563 2013-03-31 04:40:43 atweiden has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
564 2013-03-31 04:41:03 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: my daughter is enjoying that for the first time
565 2013-03-31 04:42:34 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #261: FAILURE in 20 sec: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/261/
566 2013-03-31 04:42:44 <BlueMatt> I thought I told you to give up
567 2013-03-31 04:42:53 <BlueMatt> you know what, you just got yourself killed
568 2013-03-31 04:43:12 <jgarzik> sipa: Any other messages besides 'getdata' that might generate huge returns?
569 2013-03-31 04:43:13 BlueMattBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
570 2013-03-31 04:43:16 atweiden has joined
571 2013-03-31 04:43:18 <jgarzik> sipa: getheaders, addr, ?
572 2013-03-31 04:43:32 <sipa> getheaders can return up to 2000*81 bytes, afaik
573 2013-03-31 04:43:35 <jgarzik> mempool
574 2013-03-31 04:44:11 <BlueMatt> sipa: this line generates segfault for me:
575 2013-03-31 04:44:12 <BlueMatt> const ECMultConsts &c = GetECMultConsts();
576 2013-03-31 04:44:24 <sipa> BlueMatt: oh!
577 2013-03-31 04:44:43 <sipa> you need to call secp256k1_ge_start()
578 2013-03-31 04:44:55 <BlueMatt> where? lib load?
579 2013-03-31 04:44:55 <deltab> Luke-Jr: reading them in the order they were written, starting with LW&W?
580 2013-03-31 04:45:05 <sipa> i guess that means a secp256k1_start function in secp256k1.cpp
581 2013-03-31 04:45:07 witwit has joined
582 2013-03-31 04:45:08 <sipa> BlueMatt: let me fix
583 2013-03-31 04:45:20 <Luke-Jr> deltab: apparently :/
584 2013-03-31 04:45:32 <Luke-Jr> deltab: she started without consulting me for my expert advice
585 2013-03-31 04:47:32 witwit has quit (Client Quit)
586 2013-03-31 04:47:44 <deltab> Luke-Jr: I think it's better to read the Magician's Nephew later rather than first
587 2013-03-31 04:47:52 <jgarzik> sipa/gmaxwell: I would keep an eye out for increased socket disconnects, as we now become more strict about message parsing. Refresher description in commit message... https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/607dbfdeaf7ec053d959c47c125d60c0b7e7216a
588 2013-03-31 04:47:56 <deltab> more fun that way
589 2013-03-31 04:47:57 <Luke-Jr> deltab: I disagree :P
590 2013-03-31 04:47:57 <jgarzik> Small risk
591 2013-03-31 04:48:04 <jgarzik> and they should all be bad actors
592 2013-03-31 04:48:09 <jgarzik> but still, something to watch
593 2013-03-31 04:48:32 <jgarzik> CodeShark: sipa was telling me about a main/core split, you are working on?
594 2013-03-31 04:49:02 grau has joined
595 2013-03-31 04:51:53 <sipa> jgarzik: #2154, i think
596 2013-03-31 04:53:46 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
597 2013-03-31 04:56:38 <nikitis> So are the butterfly asic's a scam or real? I feel like people are lieing to me
598 2013-03-31 04:56:46 <sipa> BlueMatt: pushed a commit
599 2013-03-31 04:57:02 <sipa> BlueMatt: interface in include/secp256k1.h changed a bit, but more stable now
600 2013-03-31 04:58:15 <BlueMatt> thanks
601 2013-03-31 04:58:43 <sipa> i suppose you can call secp256k1_start() when loading the .so file
602 2013-03-31 04:58:43 <BlueMatt> so I should call secp256k1_start on library load and secp256k1_stop on unload?
603 2013-03-31 04:58:46 <BlueMatt> ok
604 2013-03-31 04:58:46 <sipa> yeah
605 2013-03-31 04:59:08 <sipa> that call has to happen before any other calls
606 2013-03-31 04:59:26 <sipa> but after that, it should be thread-safe
607 2013-03-31 04:59:35 <BlueMatt> ok, good
608 2013-03-31 05:00:35 <kermit_> jgarzik
609 2013-03-31 05:00:41 <kermit_> I have a question
610 2013-03-31 05:00:52 <kermit_> there are 2 "main" functions in picocoin
611 2013-03-31 05:00:58 <kermit_> in main.c and brd.c
612 2013-03-31 05:01:02 terry has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
613 2013-03-31 05:01:02 jkal has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
614 2013-03-31 05:01:02 poggy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
615 2013-03-31 05:01:03 Benjojo has quit (Write error: Broken pipe)
616 2013-03-31 05:01:03 Faradayy_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
617 2013-03-31 05:01:03 licnep has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
618 2013-03-31 05:01:04 nym has quit (Write error: Broken pipe)
619 2013-03-31 05:01:14 <jgarzik> kermit_: yes
620 2013-03-31 05:01:30 <sipa> BlueMatt: the current precomputation table is quite huge, it may take like a second to start up
621 2013-03-31 05:01:43 <kermit_> can you explain? never used two main functions before
622 2013-03-31 05:02:00 <BlueMatt> sipa: "meh"
623 2013-03-31 05:02:04 <jgarzik> kermit_: There are two programs in that directory
624 2013-03-31 05:02:12 <kermit_> oh
625 2013-03-31 05:02:41 <jgarzik> kermit_: Makefile.am in that directory shows what programs and libraries are built
626 2013-03-31 05:02:48 <kermit_> ok
627 2013-03-31 05:04:23 <CodeShark> jgarzik: yes, I had started working on that
628 2013-03-31 05:04:39 <kermit_> ok,..,brd and picocoin
629 2013-03-31 05:04:47 <jgarzik> CodeShark: looks like the early commits could be merged right now
630 2013-03-31 05:04:48 <kermit_> seem to be 2 targets
631 2013-03-31 05:04:56 <jgarzik> CodeShark: the "reduce dependence on..." stuff
632 2013-03-31 05:05:38 <sipa> BlueMatt: weird, i must have miscalculated something; it's only 0.04s here
633 2013-03-31 05:06:04 <sipa> ok, got it, it's expected
634 2013-03-31 05:06:08 <sipa> nvm!
635 2013-03-31 05:06:29 <kermit_> jgarzik, i am not really familiar with makefile.am...,
636 2013-03-31 05:06:37 <kermit_> i think this is from autotools,?
637 2013-03-31 05:06:40 <jgarzik> kermit_: google "automake table of contents"
638 2013-03-31 05:06:49 <CodeShark> jgarzik: I was going to restructure the commits - it's been a couple months since I last really took a look at that
639 2013-03-31 05:06:59 <BlueMatt> sipa: realloc: invalid pointer
640 2013-03-31 05:07:05 <BlueMatt> in gmp
641 2013-03-31 05:07:07 <sipa> BlueMatt: bleh
642 2013-03-31 05:07:17 <jgarzik> CodeShark: those preparatory commits are ordered first, and that seems like the correct order
643 2013-03-31 05:07:28 <jgarzik> CodeShark: they are also independent of a core/main split
644 2013-03-31 05:07:47 <kermit_> jgarzik->http://www.sourceware.org/autobook/autobook/autobook_toc.html ?
645 2013-03-31 05:07:55 <sipa> BlueMatt: stack trace?
646 2013-03-31 05:07:56 <CodeShark> ok, cool - I'd very much like to merge them
647 2013-03-31 05:08:48 <CodeShark> gotta go - will be back later...
648 2013-03-31 05:09:11 <BlueMatt> sipa: in secp256k1_start...nfc where
649 2013-03-31 05:09:18 <BlueMatt> gotta backtrace manually
650 2013-03-31 05:09:58 <jgarzik> kermit_: anywhere that GNU Automake is sold :)
651 2013-03-31 05:10:33 <kermit_> what does brd do, it looks like a demon
652 2013-03-31 05:10:37 <kermit_> deamon
653 2013-03-31 05:10:47 <sipa> brd == block relay daemon
654 2013-03-31 05:10:47 <BlueMatt> sipa: secp256k1_fe_start
655 2013-03-31 05:10:57 <kermit_> aha
656 2013-03-31 05:11:19 <kermit_> what is a block relay daemon?
657 2013-03-31 05:11:56 <sipa> BlueMatt: got it
658 2013-03-31 05:12:13 <BlueMatt> secp256k1_num_set_bin
659 2013-03-31 05:12:17 <BlueMatt> ok
660 2013-03-31 05:13:30 <kermit_> brd is a service, to service queries from blockinformation
661 2013-03-31 05:13:32 <kermit_> ?
662 2013-03-31 05:13:32 Garr255 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
663 2013-03-31 05:14:11 <sipa> kermit_: no, it just relays blocks
664 2013-03-31 05:14:28 <kermit_> sipa what does that mean?
665 2013-03-31 05:14:52 <sipa> it receives blocks from peers, verifies them, and relays them to other peers
666 2013-03-31 05:15:00 <kermit_> aha
667 2013-03-31 05:15:10 Eiii has joined
668 2013-03-31 05:15:32 <kermit_> does it add blocks to the blockchain?
669 2013-03-31 05:16:02 <sipa> which blockchain?
670 2013-03-31 05:16:16 dxbydt has joined
671 2013-03-31 05:16:36 <sipa> BlueMatt: should be fixed
672 2013-03-31 05:17:15 <realazthat> how long does a -reindex usually take
673 2013-03-31 05:17:24 <sipa> depends on lot on your CPU and disk
674 2013-03-31 05:17:36 <realazthat> both suck
675 2013-03-31 05:17:43 <BlueMatt> sipa: works now
676 2013-03-31 05:18:00 <sipa> realazthat: setting -dbcache higher (to 1000 or so) will improve reindex speed
677 2013-03-31 05:18:03 <BlueMatt> sipa: pushed working version
678 2013-03-31 05:18:21 <jgarzik> kermit_: brd maintains a local copy of the blockchain, yes
679 2013-03-31 05:18:22 <realazthat> sipa: can I do that in the bitcoin.conf?
680 2013-03-31 05:18:25 <sipa> realazthat: yes
681 2013-03-31 05:18:32 <sipa> realazthat: it's a number in MiB, though
682 2013-03-31 05:18:43 <kermit_> jgarzik, in main.c there is a call to "chain_set" but i see only one chain_set function and it has static scope in brd
683 2013-03-31 05:18:54 <kermit_> how is this possible it is not visable from main.c
684 2013-03-31 05:19:02 <kermit_> or am i missing something
685 2013-03-31 05:19:24 <realazthat> sipa: does it effect ram or disk usage?
686 2013-03-31 05:19:46 <jgarzik> [jgarzik@bd src]$ grep -w chain_set *.c
687 2013-03-31 05:19:46 <jgarzik> brd.c:static void chain_set(void)
688 2013-03-31 05:19:46 <jgarzik> brd.c: chain_set();
689 2013-03-31 05:19:46 <jgarzik> main.c:static void chain_set(void)
690 2013-03-31 05:20:04 <jgarzik> kermit_: get a grep :)
691 2013-03-31 05:20:08 <kermit_> i am working in windows
692 2013-03-31 05:20:15 <sipa> realazthat: RAM
693 2013-03-31 05:20:15 <kermit_> grep would be nice yes
694 2013-03-31 05:20:20 <realazthat> kermit_: msys, cygwin
695 2013-03-31 05:20:35 <realazthat> sipa: hehe, the ram sucks too :D
696 2013-03-31 05:21:03 <sipa> BlueMatt: doesn't __attach need to be static, or get a more unique name?
697 2013-03-31 05:21:13 <sipa> BlueMatt: to prevent namespace clashes
698 2013-03-31 05:21:26 <BlueMatt> sipa: it probably should, yes
699 2013-03-31 05:21:34 <jgarzik> hah, too funny:
700 2013-03-31 05:21:35 <jgarzik> [jgarzik@bd fileserver-backup]$ [cd
701 2013-03-31 05:21:36 <jgarzik> bash: [cd: command not found...
702 2013-03-31 05:21:36 <jgarzik> Failed to search for file: GDBus.Error:org.gtk.GDBus.UnmappedGError.Quark._pk_5ftransaction_5ferror.Code14: Invalid input passed to daemon: char '[' in text!
703 2013-03-31 05:21:42 * jgarzik kicks complexity
704 2013-03-31 05:21:46 <BlueMatt> lol wtf
705 2013-03-31 05:22:04 uberdub has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
706 2013-03-31 05:22:21 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
707 2013-03-31 05:22:41 <jgarzik> some Fedora shell mapping craziness it seems. dbus has infected everything.
708 2013-03-31 05:23:01 <BlueMatt> sipa: ok
709 2013-03-31 05:23:03 TriNitroToluene has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
710 2013-03-31 05:23:05 <kermit_> is used visual studios "find decleration but it went sideways"
711 2013-03-31 05:23:17 <BlueMatt> f'ing dbus and systemd...
712 2013-03-31 05:24:06 keystroke has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
713 2013-03-31 05:24:34 <sipa> BlueMatt: merged
714 2013-03-31 05:24:40 <BlueMatt> thanks
715 2013-03-31 05:24:51 keystroke has joined
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718 2013-03-31 05:25:53 dxbydt has quit (Quit: dxbydt)
719 2013-03-31 05:26:44 dxbydt has joined
720 2013-03-31 05:27:18 <jgarzik> sipa: RE #2409. We should time out sockets that fail to drain the send buffer after a certain amount of time. Do not think the code does that now, but could be wrong?
721 2013-03-31 05:27:39 <BlueMatt> sipa: you need to mkdir obj && rm -r obj/* && git add obj so that you dont get a build error when you first check out
722 2013-03-31 05:27:58 <sipa> jgarzik: if no data gets sent or received in 60s, the socket is disconnected
723 2013-03-31 05:28:12 <sipa> jgarzik: perhaps when the send buffer is non-empty, a smaller timeout should be used
724 2013-03-31 05:28:47 <bitcoin122> does armory work on bsd?
725 2013-03-31 05:29:21 <sipa> jgarzik: i've been thinking about an fProcessing in CNode, which is set to false when nSendSize exceeds SendBufferSize(), and gets set back to true when it's below half of that
726 2013-03-31 05:29:28 <muhoo> dbus is a disease
727 2013-03-31 05:29:48 <sipa> jgarzik: to prevent continuously calling ProcessMessage for tiny bits of data
728 2013-03-31 05:29:56 <sipa> but it won't be noticable, i guess
729 2013-03-31 05:30:43 <Belxjander> muhoo: what?
730 2013-03-31 05:31:04 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
731 2013-03-31 05:32:24 D34TH has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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737 2013-03-31 05:33:01 meLon has quit (Quit: leaving)
738 2013-03-31 05:33:02 <jgarzik> sipa: RE timeout, 60s is sufficient. Making it smaller might just punish crappy connections. Just wanted to make sure we covered that case, in the new code.
739 2013-03-31 05:33:13 meLon has joined
740 2013-03-31 05:34:36 Optimus-Prime has joined
741 2013-03-31 05:35:16 <jgarzik> OK, found the inactivity checking, re-reviewed, looks good
742 2013-03-31 05:35:53 <jgarzik> sipa: ACK fProcessing
743 2013-03-31 05:36:04 <jgarzik> sipa: Seems like it would prevent an abuse?
744 2013-03-31 05:36:10 <sipa> i doubt it
745 2013-03-31 05:36:18 dxbydt has quit (Quit: dxbydt)
746 2013-03-31 05:36:32 <sipa> it's just slightly ugly now that nSendSize is accessed without cs_vSendMsg
747 2013-03-31 05:36:36 <jgarzik> true
748 2013-03-31 05:36:47 <sipa> doing that for a boolean feels nicer :)
749 2013-03-31 05:37:23 sgornick has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
750 2013-03-31 05:38:34 <jgarzik> sipa: if this was the kernel I would use a yummy primitive like the atomic test_and_set_bit
751 2013-03-31 05:39:11 <BlueMatt> we should move bitcoind to a kernel module!
752 2013-03-31 05:39:38 ThomasV has joined
753 2013-03-31 05:40:17 <Belxjander> BlueMatt: keep the daemon in userland but create a kernel interface as well?
754 2013-03-31 05:40:27 <Belxjander> use the kernels built-in material where logical?
755 2013-03-31 05:40:37 <sipa> jgarzik: worst case is that async sending sets fProcessing back to true, but due to a race condition ProcessMessages sees a false, and stops slightly earlier than it could, picking up the next iteration
756 2013-03-31 05:40:41 <sipa> jgarzik: nothing to worry about
757 2013-03-31 05:40:56 <sipa> though a comment explaining why it's safe would be nice :)
758 2013-03-31 05:41:00 <jgarzik> /dev/bitcoin
759 2013-03-31 05:41:00 <BlueMatt> Belxjander: hell no, whole thing in kernel mode
760 2013-03-31 05:41:58 * BlueMatt wonders why test-and-set isnt exposed to userland
761 2013-03-31 05:42:01 <Belxjander> BlueMatt: well THAT is binding it to a single OS
762 2013-03-31 05:42:02 <BlueMatt> or is it?
763 2013-03-31 05:42:12 <BlueMatt> Belxjander: yea, BitcoinOS
764 2013-03-31 05:42:17 <BlueMatt> no userspace at all, just bitcoin
765 2013-03-31 05:42:34 <sipa> BlueMatt: i'm sure pthreads has something like that
766 2013-03-31 05:42:52 <BlueMatt> probably, but does it run in one instruction?
767 2013-03-31 05:42:58 <Belxjander> well I am at the moment getting an updated python build for AmigaOS working so I can then start looking at various other things as well
768 2013-03-31 05:43:05 Arnavion has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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773 2013-03-31 05:48:59 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: I think there's a C level atomics API floating about
774 2013-03-31 05:49:10 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: but if you want to get linux-specific, that stuff does work in userspace
775 2013-03-31 05:49:15 <jgarzik> it's just asm
776 2013-03-31 05:49:23 <jgarzik> with a lock prefix, usually
777 2013-03-31 05:49:26 <BlueMatt> and gcc doesnt use it?
778 2013-03-31 05:49:29 <BlueMatt> thats boring
779 2013-03-31 05:49:35 <jgarzik> it's complicating :)
780 2013-03-31 05:49:41 <BlueMatt> true
781 2013-03-31 05:49:42 <BlueMatt> anyway...
782 2013-03-31 05:51:05 <jgarzik> in fact, I think all spinlock/semaphore primitives in the kernel should work in userland
783 2013-03-31 05:51:22 <jgarzik> cannot think of any priveleged stuff in that area
784 2013-03-31 05:51:32 <BlueMatt> ACK
785 2013-03-31 05:51:45 <jgarzik> Speaking of putting crazy shit in the kernel, I always wanted to do /dev/perl as a joke
786 2013-03-31 05:51:46 <BlueMatt> go implement it (and convince linus to merge it!)
787 2013-03-31 05:51:50 <jgarzik> and write a Perl device driver
788 2013-03-31 05:52:02 <BlueMatt> haha
789 2013-03-31 05:52:06 <BlueMatt> /dev/brainfuck
790 2013-03-31 05:52:11 <sipa> tomorrow seems like the day
791 2013-03-31 05:52:30 <BlueMatt> for?
792 2013-03-31 05:52:31 <Belxjander> BlueMatt: you don't need to merge sources... just package it up and have it build against a working kernel tree
793 2013-03-31 05:52:49 <sipa> < BlueMatt> /dev/brainfuck
794 2013-03-31 05:52:52 <BlueMatt> fine kernel module
795 2013-03-31 05:52:53 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: April 1st
796 2013-03-31 05:52:57 <BlueMatt> ohhh...
797 2013-03-31 05:53:15 <BlueMatt> hmm...
798 2013-03-31 05:53:27 * BlueMatt is giving tech talks on april 1st...now I need to redo the first few slides...
799 2013-03-31 05:54:08 <BlueMatt> also, if jgarzik wants to drive to chapel hill to listen to BlueMatt talk about bitcoin anonymity/pseudonymity, he is welcome to do so
800 2013-03-31 05:54:19 <jgarzik> P.S. A tale of April 1 gone wrong: a semi well known FOSS programmer made a commit to a FOSS project repository, adding an obvious backdoor to a very well known program that runs priveleged on most Linux desktops today.
801 2013-03-31 05:54:31 <BlueMatt> oh god
802 2013-03-31 05:54:40 <jgarzik> It was an April 1 joke, and he commited to side branch of something like "this is a joke"
803 2013-03-31 05:55:02 <jgarzik> However, even private branch commits go out to this project's commit mailing list. all shitstorm broke loose.
804 2013-03-31 05:55:16 <BlueMatt> hahaha
805 2013-03-31 05:55:32 <Belxjander> jgarzik: what project had that happen?
806 2013-03-31 05:56:11 <sipa> grrrr
807 2013-03-31 05:56:46 <sipa> i spent the last half hour figuring out why all my benchmarks ran as slow as before a performance improvement i made earlier
808 2013-03-31 05:56:49 kadoban has joined
809 2013-03-31 05:57:01 <sipa> going back commit by commit to see what introduced it
810 2013-03-31 05:57:06 <sipa> now i notice:
811 2013-03-31 05:57:06 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: also, though you arent a student so you probably dont care, there is free pizza
812 2013-03-31 05:57:10 <sipa> $ top
813 2013-03-31 05:57:24 <sipa> PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND
814 2013-03-31 05:57:27 <sipa> 23477 pw 20 0 1117m 293m 22m R 99 3.7 91:53.60 chromium-browse
815 2013-03-31 05:58:23 <Belxjander> sipa: chrome eating the CPU and the benchmarks are still performing the same as before?
816 2013-03-31 05:58:32 <sipa> Belxjander: nope, slower
817 2013-03-31 05:58:53 <sipa> i7 CPU that only runs at top performance when 1 single core is loaded
818 2013-03-31 05:59:10 <Belxjander> that sounds about right actually
819 2013-03-31 05:59:39 <Belxjander> I clocked a DualCore AMD down from 2.5GHz -> 2.2GHz and it actually performed better since the cores were not as "starved" from bus access
820 2013-03-31 06:00:01 <sipa> but the resulting degradation is performance was exactly the same as the improvement i made a few commits before
821 2013-03-31 06:00:14 <sipa> so i wondered why that didn't work anymore
822 2013-03-31 06:04:56 <Perdos> sipa: both chrome and firefox on some websites periodically do that to me and i have to kill them
823 2013-03-31 06:05:02 <Perdos> murda!
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842 2013-03-31 06:39:32 <realazthat> ./bitcoind.exe getrawtransaction 212e530f9fef1dd9c5f6e9d4f5525aac783f8316521a1242cace1943bddf4729 works fine,
843 2013-03-31 06:39:48 <realazthat> but the same txid with gettransaction returns error: {"code":-5,"message":"Invalid or non-wallet transaction id"}
844 2013-03-31 06:40:06 <gmaxwell> "non-wallet transaction id"
845 2013-03-31 06:40:07 <BlueMatt> do you have -txindex
846 2013-03-31 06:40:20 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: huh, that doesn't matter for that case.
847 2013-03-31 06:40:21 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell wins
848 2013-03-31 06:40:33 <BlueMatt> oh, I thought txindex would let you get a non-wallet txid
849 2013-03-31 06:40:37 <gmaxwell> realazthat: what are you trying to get? a decode of the transaction?
850 2013-03-31 06:40:43 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: not with gettransaction
851 2013-03-31 06:40:53 <BlueMatt> oh :(
852 2013-03-31 06:41:02 MiningBuddy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
853 2013-03-31 06:41:08 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: No frown needed. getrawtransaction will let you get it.
854 2013-03-31 06:41:22 <BlueMatt> oh, ok...meh
855 2013-03-31 06:41:25 MiningBuddy has joined
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857 2013-03-31 06:41:25 MiningBuddy has joined
858 2013-03-31 06:41:33 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: watcha mehing for?
859 2013-03-31 06:41:38 Arnavion has quit (Quit: Arnavion)
860 2013-03-31 06:41:43 <realazthat> gmaxwell: I am trying to get the tx info
861 2013-03-31 06:41:52 <BlueMatt> because its a non-intuitive api
862 2013-03-31 06:41:52 <gmaxwell> realazthat: what info?
863 2013-03-31 06:41:54 Arnavion has joined
864 2013-03-31 06:42:10 <BlueMatt> generally, we have a million rpcs and some of them could be consolidated
865 2013-03-31 06:42:13 AtashiCon has quit (Quit: AtashiCon)
866 2013-03-31 06:42:17 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yea, but gettransaction suddenly returning transactions which aren't yours when it was previously wallet stuff would be bad.
867 2013-03-31 06:42:31 AtashiCon has joined
868 2013-03-31 06:42:36 <realazthat> gmaxwell: the blockchain info
869 2013-03-31 06:42:45 <realazthat> like, hash, inputs, outputs etc.
870 2013-03-31 06:42:59 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yes, doesnt mean it doesnt look weird now
871 2013-03-31 06:43:04 coolsa has quit (Quit: Leaving)
872 2013-03-31 06:43:12 <gmaxwell> realazthat: add a 1 to your getrawtransaction call (verbose)
873 2013-03-31 06:43:14 <realazthat> or some way to get at transaction info
874 2013-03-31 06:43:19 <realazthat> ah ok
875 2013-03-31 06:43:44 <realazthat> gmaxwell: perfect, thanks
876 2013-03-31 06:44:17 <BlueMatt> ;;bc,blocks
877 2013-03-31 06:44:18 <gribble> 228874
878 2013-03-31 06:44:39 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I agree it's surprising, I think all the wallet rpcs should be prefixed with wallet or something like that... I guess.
879 2013-03-31 06:45:08 <BlueMatt> hmm...looks like bitcoinj may be able to import full chain in around 3 hours to tmpfs with sigchecking everything thanks to sipa
880 2013-03-31 06:46:07 <gmaxwell> slooow. :P
881 2013-03-31 06:46:13 <BlueMatt> its also java
882 2013-03-31 06:46:16 <gmaxwell> True.
883 2013-03-31 06:46:28 <BlueMatt> what does bitcoind do if you check all sigs
884 2013-03-31 06:46:29 <gmaxwell> Fassssst (all things considered)
885 2013-03-31 06:48:18 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: 47:21 to 210000 with openssl, 37:10 with the old HAL patch which was only 20% faster than openssl (vs sipa's code which is more like 4x+ faster)
886 2013-03-31 06:48:42 <gmaxwell> (thats with checkpoints off, I don't have numbers newer than that right now)
887 2013-03-31 06:49:11 <BlueMatt> ok, well that is kinda in line with what I'd expect from java then
888 2013-03-31 06:49:22 <BlueMatt> ~3x as slow, though to tmpfs
889 2013-03-31 06:49:31 <gmaxwell> yea, mine was on a SSD.
890 2013-03-31 06:50:48 Guest39795 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
891 2013-03-31 06:53:47 <MC-Droid> i learn there was once a FVN implementation for android
892 2013-03-31 06:53:57 <MC-Droid> i want to try it lol
893 2013-03-31 06:54:53 realazthat has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
894 2013-03-31 06:55:03 <BlueMatt> ~12 hours in, 270 connections, 365m RES, 789m VIRT
895 2013-03-31 06:55:06 donpdonp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
896 2013-03-31 06:55:45 <BlueMatt> :D
897 2013-03-31 06:56:18 Guest36321 has joined
898 2013-03-31 06:56:43 Guest36321 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
899 2013-03-31 06:56:48 realazthat has joined
900 2013-03-31 06:59:24 metabyte has joined
901 2013-03-31 07:00:17 <Scrat> does the automatic wallet flush lock the entire bitcoind?
902 2013-03-31 07:02:21 kbo has quit (Excess Flood)
903 2013-03-31 07:03:33 <gmaxwell> Scrat: because it basically shuts down and closes the wallet database in order to flush it out.... and other parts of the code expect to access it
904 2013-03-31 07:04:13 <Scrat> takes 250 ms - 9 sec (varies wildly) with a wallet of 2100 keys
905 2013-03-31 07:04:32 paperclip has left ("Leaving")
906 2013-03-31 07:06:27 <sipa> realazthat: you need getrawtransaction, and enabled -txindex
907 2013-03-31 07:07:07 realazthat has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
908 2013-03-31 07:07:24 felixhandte has joined
909 2013-03-31 07:07:33 realazthat has joined
910 2013-03-31 07:08:29 uberdub has joined
911 2013-03-31 07:08:40 donpdonp has joined
912 2013-03-31 07:09:13 <BlueMatt> Imported 228535 blocks.
913 2013-03-31 07:09:13 <BlueMatt> real 100m31.443s
914 2013-03-31 07:09:23 <BlueMatt> so...a "bit" less than 3 hours
915 2013-03-31 07:09:28 <BlueMatt> I think my calculation was a bit wrong
916 2013-03-31 07:09:39 blaeks has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
917 2013-03-31 07:09:42 <BlueMatt> thanks sipa!
918 2013-03-31 07:10:20 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,blocks
919 2013-03-31 07:10:20 <gribble> 228876
920 2013-03-31 07:10:31 <sipa> BlueMatt: which num/field implementation?
921 2013-03-31 07:10:41 <BlueMatt> Im importing from .bitcoin that hasnt been synced in a bit
922 2013-03-31 07:10:44 <BlueMatt> gmp non-asm
923 2013-03-31 07:11:05 <BlueMatt> sipa: seriously? its now 9 in the morning...
924 2013-03-31 07:11:30 <EvilPete> Oh this is funny.. my bitcoind doesn't recognize itself and is trying to connect back to itself over and over..
925 2013-03-31 07:11:36 <sipa> BlueMatt: yeah, i figure i'd try to fix by biorythm a bit :)
926 2013-03-31 07:11:41 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yea thats more reasonable.
927 2013-03-31 07:12:40 <BlueMatt> sipa: lol
928 2013-03-31 07:12:49 realazthat has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
929 2013-03-31 07:12:53 <Scrat> Flushed 64 addresses to peers.dat 14305ms
930 2013-03-31 07:12:58 <Scrat> why oh why
931 2013-03-31 07:12:58 <BlueMatt> wtf?
932 2013-03-31 07:13:04 <BlueMatt> valgrind?
933 2013-03-31 07:13:04 <Scrat> load average < 2
934 2013-03-31 07:13:15 nus- has joined
935 2013-03-31 07:13:24 <Scrat> iowait < 10%
936 2013-03-31 07:13:31 <sipa> Scrat: is your filesystem on a network drive mounted over RFC 1149?
937 2013-03-31 07:13:40 <Scrat> sipa: lol
938 2013-03-31 07:13:42 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,blocks
939 2013-03-31 07:13:43 <gribble> 228878
940 2013-03-31 07:13:43 <gmaxwell> Scrat: what crazy thing have you done with your wallet? how many transactions are in ot?
941 2013-03-31 07:14:25 <gmaxwell> Scrat: somethinglike .. bitcoind listtransactions "*" 100000 | grep txid | wc -l
942 2013-03-31 07:14:29 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
943 2013-03-31 07:14:58 <BlueMatt> ok, seriously, Im giving a talk on april 1st and I need to start with something good...any suggestions?
944 2013-03-31 07:15:03 <Scrat> gmaxwell: not many, 210
945 2013-03-31 07:16:25 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: whats the subject matter of the talk?
946 2013-03-31 07:16:35 <BlueMatt> bitcoin/tor anonymity
947 2013-03-31 07:16:46 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Give the talk in german.
948 2013-03-31 07:17:13 nus has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
949 2013-03-31 07:17:20 <BlueMatt> hah
950 2013-03-31 07:17:23 <sipa> BlueMatt: put the logo of the CIA on your first slide, with a text that you're completely and totally hidden from all authorities when using Tor
951 2013-03-31 07:18:14 <Scrat> gmaxwell: well I don't know, does bitcoind do anything weird I/O wise? no other daemon I'm running has this kind of variance
952 2013-03-31 07:18:32 <gmaxwell> Scrat: the DB flushing involve sync writes. Do you have a weird filesystem?
953 2013-03-31 07:18:36 <Scrat> drive has no errors
954 2013-03-31 07:18:51 <Scrat> ext4 on mdadm raid 1
955 2013-03-31 07:19:15 <sipa> writing to peers.dat doesn't need any DB interaction
956 2013-03-31 07:19:27 <sipa> i figure something was locking addrman
957 2013-03-31 07:19:37 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: you could browse to an underground market which features copies of the classes test solutions for sale. The problem with that is that the screen is hard to read so the joke might be missed.
958 2013-03-31 07:19:39 <sipa> so the write blocked retrieving the data from addrman
959 2013-03-31 07:19:44 <Scrat> my keypool is 1000
960 2013-03-31 07:19:51 <gmaxwell> oh I thought he was saying the wallet took 14 seconds.
961 2013-03-31 07:19:54 <sipa> Scrat: all irrelevant
962 2013-03-31 07:20:05 <gmaxwell> I missed that it was peers.dat! crazy.
963 2013-03-31 07:20:14 <gmaxwell> That does no special filesystem anything and doesn't touch the wallet.
964 2013-03-31 07:20:28 * gmaxwell looks on scrat's claims of a non-failing disk with skepticism.
965 2013-03-31 07:20:50 <sipa> i think something locking addrman.cs is more likely than a disk problem
966 2013-03-31 07:21:03 blaeks has joined
967 2013-03-31 07:21:10 <Scrat> maybe an addrwoman.cs?
968 2013-03-31 07:21:24 <gmaxwell> I don't think we do anything blocking, like opening a new connection, while holding the lock though AFAIK
969 2013-03-31 07:21:27 * Scrat lame joke
970 2013-03-31 07:21:33 <sipa> Scrat: we don't want nondeterminism there
971 2013-03-31 07:21:57 * gmaxwell feels guilty for chuckling at sipa's sexist humor
972 2013-03-31 07:22:25 * sipa breakfast!
973 2013-03-31 07:22:50 grau has joined
974 2013-03-31 07:22:51 <BlueMatt> lol
975 2013-03-31 07:23:17 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: hmmm...I wonder what rfcs we'll get this year
976 2013-03-31 07:24:21 sydna has joined
977 2013-03-31 07:24:30 <MC1984> heh
978 2013-03-31 07:24:52 <sydna> so, bitcoin transactions rely on the security of their private keys.
979 2013-03-31 07:25:03 <sydna> then why are so many libraries generating them in stupid ways?
980 2013-03-31 07:25:08 <muhoo> BlueMatt: announce that all the devs and bitcoin has been bought by visa
981 2013-03-31 07:25:15 <sydna> I've seen at least three PHP libraries that use mt_rand()
982 2013-03-31 07:25:29 <Scrat> sydna: because CSPRNGs are hard
983 2013-03-31 07:25:37 <Scrat> sydna: ok in this case stupidity
984 2013-03-31 07:25:44 <gwillen> sydna: you have seen php libraries generating bitcoin keys?
985 2013-03-31 07:25:55 <sydna> gwillen: yuh.
986 2013-03-31 07:26:18 <sydna> Scrat: easier to use openssl_random_pseudo_bytes() though, that's cryptographically secure
987 2013-03-31 07:26:21 <muhoo> BlueMatt: and visa will buy the complete market cap of bitcoins, from now on, bitcoin will be known as VisaCoin
988 2013-03-31 07:26:46 <gwillen> sydna: I can't picture why someone would be doing that
989 2013-03-31 07:26:56 <gwillen> sydna: can you shed light?
990 2013-03-31 07:27:08 <BlueMatt> muhoo: mmm, dunno, maybe discuss all the backdoor in bitcoin or something
991 2013-03-31 07:27:13 <BlueMatt> s
992 2013-03-31 07:28:14 <BlueMatt> announce a new standard for bitcoin over RFC 5514
993 2013-03-31 07:28:16 <sydna> gwillen: just payment processing scripts in this case. I've made mention of it to their developers.
994 2013-03-31 07:28:18 nethershaw has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
995 2013-03-31 07:28:33 <gwillen> sydna: but presumably they are using bitcoind to talk to the network; why not let bitcoind generate addresses?
996 2013-03-31 07:28:38 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: they bypass the regular RFC editorial queue, so they're actually not known until published.
997 2013-03-31 07:28:52 <gwillen> oh god
998 2013-03-31 07:28:55 <gwillen> it's that time of year
999 2013-03-31 07:28:58 <sydna> gwillen: one does, the other ones are talking to APIs like blockchain.info
1000 2013-03-31 07:29:00 * gwillen had almost managed to forget.
1001 2013-03-31 07:29:06 <gwillen> sydna: ahh, *nod*
1002 2013-03-31 07:29:12 <Scrat> gwillen: there are some php scripts that generate addresses themselves and use a 3rd party api to track incoming payments
1003 2013-03-31 07:29:22 <gwillen> this tempts me
1004 2013-03-31 07:29:24 <Scrat> sydna damn you
1005 2013-03-31 07:29:26 <gwillen> but not enough to actually do it
1006 2013-03-31 07:29:32 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well if there is a fun IP-over-Shit standard, Ill probably talk about how Bitcoin is the first to adopt IP-over-Shit
1007 2013-03-31 07:29:35 <gwillen> to look through the blockchain for keys generated with MT
1008 2013-03-31 07:29:39 <gwillen> and try to crack them ;-)
1009 2013-03-31 07:29:43 * gwillen wonder if anybody will
1010 2013-03-31 07:29:52 kermit_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1011 2013-03-31 07:29:54 <gwillen> it's probably not even hard.
1012 2013-03-31 07:29:55 <sydna> you'd probably have some luck, mt_rand is very predictable
1013 2013-03-31 07:29:59 <gwillen> not only that
1014 2013-03-31 07:30:05 <Scrat> gwillen: only doable if you know one (or a few) of them
1015 2013-03-31 07:30:07 <gwillen> you probably know the exact time it was called
1016 2013-03-31 07:30:14 <Scrat> need 600 bytes of MT afaik
1017 2013-03-31 07:30:16 <gmaxwell> Scrat: there are things using mt_rand() ... man, I went and checked some JS implementations and I wasn't super happy with what I found I didn't see any of that!
1018 2013-03-31 07:30:24 <Scrat> to calculate state
1019 2013-03-31 07:30:24 <sydna> most of them just do mt_rand(1,16), turn it into hex, and concatenate it multiple times
1020 2013-03-31 07:30:35 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: well there is the IP over social networks from a couple years ago.
1021 2013-03-31 07:30:51 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: if you'd like you can use petertodd's stuff to run bitcoin over twitter.
1022 2013-03-31 07:30:52 <BlueMatt> yea...<BlueMatt> announce a new standard for bitcoin over RFC 5514
1023 2013-03-31 07:31:02 <BlueMatt> thats the one
1024 2013-03-31 07:31:08 * sipa actually used that
1025 2013-03-31 07:31:12 <BlueMatt> same
1026 2013-03-31 07:31:21 <BlueMatt> petertodd's thing?
1027 2013-03-31 07:31:27 <sipa> no, RFC 5514
1028 2013-03-31 07:31:45 <gwillen> Scrat: well, you need either 600 bytes or you need the seed
1029 2013-03-31 07:31:47 <BlueMatt> sorry, yes, Ive used 5514, I meant to ask what gmaxwell was referring to
1030 2013-03-31 07:32:02 <gwillen> Scrat: and if you can figure out what time the app first called it
1031 2013-03-31 07:32:03 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: some airlines are allowing access to ebay on flights for free.. contemplated setting up IP over Ebay.
1032 2013-03-31 07:32:09 <gwillen> Scrat: you have part of the seed
1033 2013-03-31 07:32:28 <gwillen> gmaxwell: oh dear lord.
1034 2013-03-31 07:32:32 <sydna> if they expose mt_rand() variables in any part of their site, they're in trouble essentially
1035 2013-03-31 07:32:33 <sipa> gmaxwell: wouldn't IP-over-DNS be easier?
1036 2013-03-31 07:32:37 <gwillen> gmaxwell: just use ... yeah, what sipa said.
1037 2013-03-31 07:32:42 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: many of them allow google access, so you can do IP-over-Googleapps pretty trivially
1038 2013-03-31 07:32:44 <BlueMatt> though its not new
1039 2013-03-31 07:32:50 <muhoo> i've seen a demo of someone downloading IIRC a movie torrent over 5514 or something
1040 2013-03-31 07:32:58 <gmaxwell> sydna: not even that mt rand is a fine rng for things but its not cryptographically strong...
1041 2013-03-31 07:33:02 <BlueMatt> sipa: IP-over-DNS on airplanes is sloooowww (I use it all the time, you can get IRC, thats about it)
1042 2013-03-31 07:33:03 <gwillen> you can also just set your UA to be something mobile-looking
1043 2013-03-31 07:33:05 <gwillen> and pay half price
1044 2013-03-31 07:33:06 <sydna> I relied on Iodine (IP over DNS) for my internet connection for a year.
1045 2013-03-31 07:33:09 <gwillen> for for full speed
1046 2013-03-31 07:33:23 <sipa> BlueMatt: i've never been on an airplane that had internet access in the first place
1047 2013-03-31 07:33:51 <BlueMatt> sipa: North Carolina <-> California's 5-hour has internet usually
1048 2013-03-31 07:33:53 <sipa> then again, for these 1h flights within europe, it's not that urgent either :)
1049 2013-03-31 07:33:54 <muhoo> i just discovered that t-mobile will "block tethering" by inspecting your user-agent, and capture-portal'ing you if you are using windoze
1050 2013-03-31 07:34:05 <sydna> gmaxwell: some of the implementations using mt_rand are even worse than the RNG itself.
1051 2013-03-31 07:34:15 * BlueMatt is waiting for the international flights with internet
1052 2013-03-31 07:34:25 <BlueMatt> muhoo: this is why you use a vpn
1053 2013-03-31 07:34:26 <sipa> xkcd #221 comes to mind
1054 2013-03-31 07:34:27 <Scrat> gmaxwell: what's funnier is that JS implementations are up to the interpreter. there are quite a few cases of JS engine prng implementations that provided less-than-random outputs
1055 2013-03-31 07:34:39 <sydna> gmaxwell: for one system I looked over, the encryption keys were "randomly generated" using sha1(mg_rand())
1056 2013-03-31 07:34:41 <muhoo> BlueMatt: heh, i was just typing that: add to my reasons for VPNing
1057 2013-03-31 07:34:47 <gmaxwell> sydna: also, if people sign using a poor rng for the signing nonce the key is effectively disclosed.
1058 2013-03-31 07:34:49 ThomasV has joined
1059 2013-03-31 07:34:55 * BlueMatt wonders if anyone would notice if I had a screenshot of bitcoin that had a xkcd 221-style function in it
1060 2013-03-31 07:35:31 <sydna> gmaxwell: hm. does that mean that some of those javascript signing tools might be exposing keys too?
1061 2013-03-31 07:35:56 <sydna> I know for a fact most of them don't use the CSRNG functions.
1062 2013-03-31 07:36:05 <gmaxwell> Scrat: the ones out there I've seen use window.crypto.getRandomValues ... but then have dumb stuff if its not available.
1063 2013-03-31 07:36:18 <EvilPete> I have a bitcoin-related question. "Terracoin" uses 2 minute block interval and retargets every 30 blocks. Imagine the v1/v2 enforcement a while back. There was no way for v1 miners to establish a fork because 2016 is a long way to go to regarget with just a few percent of hashpower. Am I right in assuming the high speed retargeting makes accidental forking easy?
1064 2013-03-31 07:36:18 <gmaxwell> scrat: like randomly polling the pointers position and then surrendering. :(
1065 2013-03-31 07:36:29 realazthat has joined
1066 2013-03-31 07:36:32 <gwillen> muhoo: the interesting thing is, tmo only does that in some locations
1067 2013-03-31 07:36:39 <gwillen> muhoo: when I was in pittsburgh they never did it, but when I visited seattle they did
1068 2013-03-31 07:37:05 <Scrat> gwillen: looked at the source, seed is based on time (in milliseconds) and pid
1069 2013-03-31 07:37:05 <gwillen> I think they may have just been experimenting with it back then
1070 2013-03-31 07:37:07 <Scrat> quite bad
1071 2013-03-31 07:37:10 <gmaxwell> EvilPete: there were some pretty fun attacks against alts with fasted windowed difficulty, e.g. sc 1.0.
1072 2013-03-31 07:37:11 <gwillen> yeah
1073 2013-03-31 07:37:11 <EvilPete> (I used terracoin as an example, I mostly want to clear up the concept in my head about why 2016 is a good idea)
1074 2013-03-31 07:37:26 <muhoo> bitaddres.org appears to use window.SecureRandom
1075 2013-03-31 07:37:47 <sydna> muhoo: what's that?
1076 2013-03-31 07:38:04 <EvilPete> muhoo: it says "secure", what more can you ask for?
1077 2013-03-31 07:38:06 <gwillen> Scrat: PID is probably 16 bits, time you can probably guess down to a handful of bits
1078 2013-03-31 07:38:12 <realazthat> how do I get the block reward for a particular block height?
1079 2013-03-31 07:38:29 <gmaxwell> muhoo: qustion is what it does when its not there. some js implementations just have random() which is an insecure LCG in most implementations and in some browsers always returns 0.
1080 2013-03-31 07:38:29 <sydna> realazthat: blockexplorer.com has an API call for that
1081 2013-03-31 07:38:41 <Scrat> muhoo: used a homebrew RC4 RNG last I checked
1082 2013-03-31 07:38:43 <sydna> muhoo: window.SecureRandom is their own implimentation, not a CSRNG
1083 2013-03-31 07:38:48 <realazthat> sydna: I am trying to implement it myself
1084 2013-03-31 07:39:14 <sipa> realazthat: 50.00000000 / 2**(int(height / 210000))
1085 2013-03-31 07:39:30 nouitfvf has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1086 2013-03-31 07:39:33 <realazthat> sipa: ah ty
1087 2013-03-31 07:39:49 <realazthat> should I worry about different chains having a different policy for that?
1088 2013-03-31 07:40:11 <sipa> if you want to support multiple chains, yes :)
1089 2013-03-31 07:40:15 <sipa> otherwise no
1090 2013-03-31 07:40:37 <sydna> gmaxwell: Scrat: that window.SecureRandom function bitaddress.org uses looks a little fragile
1091 2013-03-31 07:40:40 <realazthat> ie. is there a way to retreive that via the rpc api?
1092 2013-03-31 07:40:49 <sipa> realazthat: not really
1093 2013-03-31 07:41:03 <gmaxwell> sydna: thats the one that polls the pointer position in a busy loop?
1094 2013-03-31 07:41:08 <sipa> realazthat: you can look at a block's coinbase outputs, but that includes fees
1095 2013-03-31 07:41:23 <muhoo> i don't quite understand it, it looks like it uses ARCFOUR
1096 2013-03-31 07:41:25 <realazthat> right, I've been grapling with the math trying to separate it
1097 2013-03-31 07:41:31 <realazthat> but I don't think there is a way
1098 2013-03-31 07:41:33 <sydna> gmaxwell: polls the position, uses window.Crypto, or falls back silently to Math.random()
1099 2013-03-31 07:41:41 <realazthat> ie. separating the fees/reward
1100 2013-03-31 07:41:42 <sipa> realazthat: you can if you look at the inputs too
1101 2013-03-31 07:41:56 <realazthat> oh can I
1102 2013-03-31 07:41:56 MC-Droid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1103 2013-03-31 07:41:56 <sipa> realazthat: but don't do that :)
1104 2013-03-31 07:42:02 <sipa> that will be slow
1105 2013-03-31 07:42:03 <gmaxwell> yea thats what I meant by not being happy. means that e.g. in IE5 you'll be screwed.
1106 2013-03-31 07:42:06 <realazthat> I am looking at the inputs already hehe
1107 2013-03-31 07:42:09 <gmaxwell> but then again maybe it doesn't work in IE5.
1108 2013-03-31 07:42:12 MC-Droid has joined
1109 2013-03-31 07:42:14 <Scrat> it feeds the mouse into an RC4 cipher
1110 2013-03-31 07:42:18 <realazthat> ok
1111 2013-03-31 07:42:28 <BlueMatt> ok, lets see if anyone notices the return 4; in GetRand screenshot
1112 2013-03-31 07:42:34 <sipa> realazthat: well then you can calculate each non-coinbase transaction's fee by computing the different between outputs and inputs
1113 2013-03-31 07:42:38 <gmaxwell> Scrat: yea thats not really all that useful. Assume the mouse is still there are only e.g. 1024x768 possible locations.
1114 2013-03-31 07:42:51 <sipa> realazthat: and subtrack the sum of all those fees from the sum of the coinbase outputs
1115 2013-03-31 07:42:53 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: lol!
1116 2013-03-31 07:43:20 <realazthat> sipa: yeah makes sense, but for now I'll back off that, and make that optional later
1117 2013-03-31 07:43:30 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: you could buy something online via bitcoin and have it instantly delivered to the room. :P
1118 2013-03-31 07:43:36 <sipa> realazthat: by the way, that is not the actual subsidy
1119 2013-03-31 07:43:42 <sipa> realazthat: but only the claimed part of it
1120 2013-03-31 07:43:47 <sipa> realazthat: which in theory can be lower
1121 2013-03-31 07:43:56 <realazthat> right
1122 2013-03-31 07:43:58 <sydna> gmaxwell: there's probably some use in it all, but I'm not entirely certain that their whitening is well designed. at any rate, there's certainly not as much entropy as a standard address.
1123 2013-03-31 07:44:09 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: only if jgarzik is willing to drive over and deliver
1124 2013-03-31 07:44:47 <muhoo> Scrat: sydna : yep, it's this https://www.refheap.com/paste/13141
1125 2013-03-31 07:44:50 <Scrat> sydna: if people use it for microtransactions then it's fine (same goes for anything javascript based)
1126 2013-03-31 07:45:03 <gmaxwell> sydna: what I'm saying is that if window.Crypto not available and the mouse is still.. Math.random probably only has 31 to zero bits of entropy.
1127 2013-03-31 07:45:11 <muhoo> not cryptographically-secure :-/
1128 2013-03-31 07:45:12 <MC1984> A latency of several hours has an impact on the transport protocols.
1129 2013-03-31 07:45:12 <MC1984> UDP SHOULD be used, and TCP SHOULD NOT be used.
1130 2013-03-31 07:45:16 <MC1984> is....is this serious?
1131 2013-03-31 07:45:37 <sipa> MC1984: is that from the avian carriers RFC?
1132 2013-03-31 07:45:50 <MC1984> internet over facebook thing
1133 2013-03-31 07:45:54 <gmaxwell> MC1984: tcp can't be used when the latency is over 2 minutes.
1134 2013-03-31 07:46:01 <sipa> MC1984: look at the publication date
1135 2013-03-31 07:46:01 <sydna> I don't think there's any use for insecure keys. as someone pointed out on reddit, the brain wallet sha256('i love bitcoin') held 500BTC at some point.
1136 2013-03-31 07:46:22 <MC1984> welp
1137 2013-03-31 07:46:31 <gmaxwell> sydna: do these sites do signing too?
1138 2013-03-31 07:46:50 <sydna> gmaxwell: one of them does
1139 2013-03-31 07:46:52 <MC1984> i bet it even works
1140 2013-03-31 07:46:56 <sipa> MC1984: it did
1141 2013-03-31 07:47:09 <gmaxwell> if they use bad random numbers in the signing they'll leak the private keys, even if the private keys were securely generated.
1142 2013-03-31 07:47:15 <sipa> it's one of the few april fools' RFC's with an actually working implementation
1143 2013-03-31 07:47:26 <muhoo> ok folks. is there a tool that generates SECURE keys and will print out a paper wallet?
1144 2013-03-31 07:47:29 <sydna> gmaxwell: http://brainwallet.org/#sign
1145 2013-03-31 07:47:35 <MC1984> lawd
1146 2013-03-31 07:47:57 <muhoo> because, bitaddress.org RNG does not inspire confidence
1147 2013-03-31 07:48:14 <gmaxwell> muhoo: uh. bitcoind dumpprivkey .. and lpr?
1148 2013-03-31 07:48:20 <gmaxwell> :P
1149 2013-03-31 07:48:27 <muhoo> with QR codes
1150 2013-03-31 07:48:49 <gmaxwell> and gnuqrcodemaker
1151 2013-03-31 07:48:50 <kadoban> there's simple tools to make QR codes
1152 2013-03-31 07:48:50 <sipa> ./bitcoind dumpprivkey | qrencode | lpr
1153 2013-03-31 07:48:51 <gmaxwell> ? :P
1154 2013-03-31 07:49:17 <kadoban> anyway, if you want something fancy, doesn't armory have that kind of stuff?
1155 2013-03-31 07:49:25 <muhoo> i don't mean for ME, smartys :-P
1156 2013-03-31 07:49:33 <kadoban> never used it, but that's what i plan to look into when i have enough coins to care
1157 2013-03-31 07:49:42 <muhoo> my keys are all in emacs org mode
1158 2013-03-31 07:49:54 <gmaxwell> muhoo: those sites were already off my list to recommend because they're sites. :P
1159 2013-03-31 07:50:21 <muhoo> i didn't say site. i said tool. like, a program.
1160 2013-03-31 07:50:32 <gmaxwell> Plus joric's entry into bitcoin address generation was bruteforcing keys, using his site seems ... foolish even though I'm sure he's a swell guy
1161 2013-03-31 07:51:12 <gmaxwell> muhoo: armory, I assumeâ thought I've not used that functionality of it... etotheipi's tried to make the paper backup stuff pretty good as I understand it
1162 2013-03-31 07:51:25 <muhoo> cool, will look into that.
1163 2013-03-31 07:51:33 <sydna> gmaxwell: you've got me looking for mt_rand in things now. I'm genuinely horrified.
1164 2013-03-31 07:51:59 <gmaxwell> I like the gambling sites that have used it.
1165 2013-03-31 07:52:26 * sydna rolls eyes
1166 2013-03-31 07:52:44 <gmaxwell> sydna: also people using sites that give out "random numbers" lol.
1167 2013-03-31 07:56:14 <sydna> gmaxwell: nothing would surprise me at this point.
1168 2013-03-31 07:56:32 <sipa> sydna: not even a man eating his own head?
1169 2013-03-31 07:57:20 <muhoo> eating? or inserting it in the other end?
1170 2013-03-31 07:57:59 <sydna> sipa: before I saw a php payment script that was "validating" input by stripping words like "SELECT" out. a man eating his own head wouldn't even make me blink.
1171 2013-03-31 07:58:27 <muhoo> little bobby tables
1172 2013-03-31 07:59:24 <sipa> do people still pass input data directly to SQL? i thought prepared statements solved just about any problem possible with that...
1173 2013-03-31 07:59:28 <MC1984> why does bitcoin.org claim qt takes a day to sync
1174 2013-03-31 08:00:01 <kadoban> sipa: yeah, but that's not described in horrible PHP tutorials that geniuses learn from
1175 2013-03-31 08:00:05 <sydna> sipa: I've seen maybe two or three people use PDO in PHP, the rest still pass user input straight to mysql_query()
1176 2013-03-31 08:00:31 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, that's about how long it takes on a slowish laptop
1177 2013-03-31 08:00:37 DrAkaman has joined
1178 2013-03-31 08:00:47 <gmaxwell> the world is pretty much doomed.. I mean.. I've found the wrong value of pi in a number of different things.
1179 2013-03-31 08:01:04 <sydna> 3.1416. that's good enough.
1180 2013-03-31 08:01:09 <gmaxwell> as soon as someone builds a computer system which must be correct or we all die.. we'll all die
1181 2013-03-31 08:01:19 * sydna has pi memorised up to 150 decimal places
1182 2013-03-31 08:01:27 <MC1984> i like pie
1183 2013-03-31 08:01:44 <MC1984> phantomcircuit i should benchmark it again on this machine
1184 2013-03-31 08:01:45 <gmaxwell> sydna: hopefully you were careful where you got it from, wouldn't it be sad to have memorized 150 digits of bad pi?
1185 2013-03-31 08:02:01 <MC1984> ~6 yr oldlaptop
1186 2013-03-31 08:02:13 <gmaxwell> MC1984: under promise over deliver.
1187 2013-03-31 08:02:18 <gwillen> sydna: the last php code I had to work on used sprintf and mysql_real_escape_string
1188 2013-03-31 08:02:24 <gwillen> sydna: which I think is at least correct, if not elegant
1189 2013-03-31 08:02:25 <gmaxwell> it can take a day, if your disk is failing or you just get unlucky with peers.
1190 2013-03-31 08:02:57 <sydna> gmaxwell: as far as I've seen it's the right digits
1191 2013-03-31 08:02:57 <MC1984> telling people to wait a day is scary though
1192 2013-03-31 08:03:08 <MC1984> its where i start to buy the scaring off newbs argument
1193 2013-03-31 08:03:52 <Scrat> sipa: I had to consult for a big PHP project a few months ago and they had written every single SQL command manually (quite a lot of them). needless to say it was full of gems like \'" + $_GET["pagenumber"] + \'"
1194 2013-03-31 08:04:03 <gmaxwell> it takes under an hour on my laptop, so long as peer selection doesn't get in the way. I synced over tor last week and it took about two and a half hours
1195 2013-03-31 08:04:30 <Scrat> I told the guy that it's horrible and he told me to cut the bullshit, it's fine because he "encased it in quotes"
1196 2013-03-31 08:04:32 <sydna> gwillen: the issue isn't really that it is inelegant, it's that people insist on not escaping input. yes, they do all the $_GET variables, but not input that has come from other places
1197 2013-03-31 08:04:42 <Scrat> then I proceded to drop his tables in front of him
1198 2013-03-31 08:05:24 <sydna> ugh.
1199 2013-03-31 08:05:24 <gwillen> "Help my mouse is moving by it self"
1200 2013-03-31 08:05:31 <MC1984> peer selection seems to catch out a few people
1201 2013-03-31 08:05:32 <gmaxwell> hah
1202 2013-03-31 08:05:46 <MC1984> it just gets stuck on a slow peer and no one things to restart it
1203 2013-03-31 08:06:02 fishfishclone has joined
1204 2013-03-31 08:06:02 <sydna> the issue with PHP isn't PHP, it's that the community is full of idiots writing production code.
1205 2013-03-31 08:06:05 <MC1984> and then bitcoin is indelibly shit in a newbs mind
1206 2013-03-31 08:06:15 Tectonic has joined
1207 2013-03-31 08:06:47 <gmaxwell> MC1984: so where were you when TD was telling sipa to not work on that earlier? :P
1208 2013-03-31 08:07:16 <warren> Haha. litecoin screwed up in a non-fatal way that will worry the users.
1209 2013-03-31 08:07:26 <gmaxwell> hum?
1210 2013-03-31 08:07:40 <warren> gmaxwell: http://pastebin.com/btg1evia http://p2pool-ltc.info:9327/static/
1211 2013-03-31 08:07:41 <MC1984> my eyelid is twitching again....
1212 2013-03-31 08:08:04 <gmaxwell> warren: block version numbers?
1213 2013-03-31 08:08:09 <gmaxwell> knocked everyone into safemode?
1214 2013-03-31 08:08:14 <warren> gmaxwell: the official binaries from mid-2012 are from coblee's tree. Then someone bumped a version for no reason in the project fork.
1215 2013-03-31 08:08:15 <warren> oh?
1216 2013-03-31 08:08:24 <warren> hmm
1217 2013-03-31 08:08:34 <warren> gmaxwell: not everyone, only people who built from the other git repo
1218 2013-03-31 08:08:46 <warren> i'm trying to track down exactly what changed
1219 2013-03-31 08:09:22 fishfish has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1220 2013-03-31 08:09:29 <warren> gmaxwell: that error knocks people into safemode?
1221 2013-03-31 08:09:41 <MC1984> what do people think about changing the GUI langue from "downlaoding blocks" or whatever it is to "processing blocks"
1222 2013-03-31 08:10:06 <MC1984> because too many people are assuming that the download is slow, when its the processing that is holding them up
1223 2013-03-31 08:10:14 <MC1984> then they go asking for a torrent etc
1224 2013-03-31 08:10:24 <MC1984> when it probably wont help
1225 2013-03-31 08:10:29 jdnavarro has joined
1226 2013-03-31 08:10:46 <kadoban> MC1984: does it even say downloading? the text i see says like.."Synchronizing with network" and other stuff says "Processed blah blah out of blah blah"
1227 2013-03-31 08:11:04 <sipa> MC1984: right now, it is likely the downloading part that is slow :)
1228 2013-03-31 08:11:12 <MC1984> i cant remember
1229 2013-03-31 08:11:43 <MC1984> hmm is it really, early blocks are tiny and come at hundreds per second
1230 2013-03-31 08:11:50 <MC1984> later blocks put your CPU in a tarpit
1231 2013-03-31 08:12:02 <gmaxwell> it used to be the case that the download wasn't the slow part, it often is now.
1232 2013-03-31 08:12:19 <MC1984> ok
1233 2013-03-31 08:12:32 <gmaxwell> as mentioned before, my laptop can sync in under an hour. .. but it could also take several if peers are unkind.
1234 2013-03-31 08:13:01 dparrish has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1235 2013-03-31 08:13:44 <sydna> gmaxwell: I was trying to think of where I'd seen bitcoin signatures; then I realised that I've never actually seen one. they're rarer than GPG.
1236 2013-03-31 08:13:49 <MC1984> yeah just from watching the logtail the p2p logic seems pretty basic right now
1237 2013-03-31 08:14:52 dparrish has joined
1238 2013-03-31 08:16:31 <gmaxwell> sydna: huh? they're in every transaction.
1239 2013-03-31 08:16:32 <gmaxwell> :P
1240 2013-03-31 08:17:12 <sydna> gmaxwell: I meant publicly, as a message identifier
1241 2013-03-31 08:17:36 <MC1984> speaking of which http://imgur.com/TVXp04A pimp my bitcoind
1242 2013-03-31 08:17:49 <gmaxwell> sydna: they're used for OTC auth by a number of people.
1243 2013-03-31 08:18:04 <Scrat> sydna: someone should make a gpg alternative that uses the same curve as bitcoin (or something like ed25519)
1244 2013-03-31 08:18:04 <sydna> of course!
1245 2013-03-31 08:18:09 <Scrat> RSA/DSA is so 1990
1246 2013-03-31 08:18:40 <sydna> Scrat: getting people to use GPG itself is hard enough
1247 2013-03-31 08:18:42 qwertyoruiop is now known as zz_qwertyoruiop
1248 2013-03-31 08:18:52 <Scrat> you need sexy UIs
1249 2013-03-31 08:19:01 <gmaxwell> MC1984: http://www.sostars.com/hackers-font/
1250 2013-03-31 08:21:18 <sydna> MC1984: they should call you mario, because you just got one-upped â http://i.imgur.com/Uk7Fo9T.jpg
1251 2013-03-31 08:22:13 jdnavarro has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1252 2013-03-31 08:23:19 <MC1984> thats nerdy
1253 2013-03-31 08:23:38 <MC1984> level 17 wizard mage nerdy
1254 2013-03-31 08:23:58 <sydna> nothing like using an i7 processor and a 56kbp/s terminal emulator.
1255 2013-03-31 08:25:26 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1256 2013-03-31 08:25:56 <gmaxwell> sydna: totally ungeeked by the use of mac os. Sorry, youve been outdone: https://people.xiph.org/~greg/screenshot.png
1257 2013-03-31 08:26:27 jdnavarro has joined
1258 2013-03-31 08:26:32 <gmaxwell> (the 'apple2' screensaver thats part of xscreensaver can be used as a terminal emulator 0_o)
1259 2013-03-31 08:26:59 <Scrat> hmm, apparently there is ECC support in GPG 2.1beta
1260 2013-03-31 08:27:08 <sydna> yikes, that's completely unusable.
1261 2013-03-31 08:27:16 <MC1984> "ignoring 1dice"
1262 2013-03-31 08:27:22 <sydna> ^ I like it
1263 2013-03-31 08:27:44 <Scrat> LOL
1264 2013-03-31 08:27:53 <sydna> hey wait. you'd be ignoring my addresses too then. I use 1dice addresses for my TX :\
1265 2013-03-31 08:28:09 ikbenwouter has joined
1266 2013-03-31 08:28:11 <MC1984> lol cnsorship 4 u
1267 2013-03-31 08:28:20 ikbenwouter has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1268 2013-03-31 08:29:18 <gmaxwell> gives me lots of orphans to test with.
1269 2013-03-31 08:29:24 <sydna> gmaxwell: how many nodes would have to be ignoring 1dice TX for it to have a noticable effect?
1270 2013-03-31 08:29:40 <sydna> ** noticeable
1271 2013-03-31 08:29:44 <MC1984> thats what menagle said you monster!
1272 2013-03-31 08:30:07 <gmaxwell> MC1984: lol
1273 2013-03-31 08:30:39 <Scrat> sydna: I doubt it would have any effect. they wait for confirmations now
1274 2013-03-31 08:30:43 <gmaxwell> sydna: nearly all of them.
1275 2013-03-31 08:30:46 <Scrat> did they get finney'd a lot?
1276 2013-03-31 08:31:54 <gmaxwell> Scrat: yep, though that didn't have anything to do with relay policy.
1277 2013-03-31 08:32:10 <Scrat> yeah, it had to do with eligius
1278 2013-03-31 08:33:34 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1279 2013-03-31 08:33:36 <sydna> if they wait for confirmations now, a big pool like BTC Guild ignoring them (I don't know if they do or not) would have a huge impact on them
1280 2013-03-31 08:34:05 <gmaxwell> hm. I see some weird behavior, right after a new block I got flooded with reannounced transactions.
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1283 2013-03-31 08:34:51 <sydna> blockchain.info has the same behaviour, as soon as a block is processed they show a flood of new TX
1284 2013-03-31 08:35:01 <gmaxwell> thats ... broken.
1285 2013-03-31 08:35:19 toffoo has quit ()
1286 2013-03-31 08:35:56 <TheButterZone> I was told "basically http://blockchain.info/Â doesnt adhere to the standard fees of the reference client, so some of their txns never get relayed"
1287 2013-03-31 08:36:16 <TheButterZone> when i was trying to work on my /pushtx not getting 1 confirm for days
1288 2013-03-31 08:36:44 <gmaxwell> TheButterZone: okay, but that shouldn't have anything to do with just flooding transactions after a block
1289 2013-03-31 08:36:53 <sydna> I was under the impression that they paid a standard 0.0005BTC fee
1290 2013-03-31 08:37:21 <gmaxwell> All my peers claim to be one of
1291 2013-03-31 08:37:23 <gmaxwell> "subver" : "/Satoshi:0.7.0.2/",
1292 2013-03-31 08:37:24 <gmaxwell> "subver" : "/Satoshi:0.7.0.3/",
1293 2013-03-31 08:37:24 <gmaxwell> "subver" : "/Satoshi:0.7.1/",
1294 2013-03-31 08:37:24 <gmaxwell> "subver" : "/Satoshi:0.8.0/",
1295 2013-03-31 08:37:26 <gmaxwell> "subver" : "/Satoshi:0.8.1/",
1296 2013-03-31 08:37:33 <gmaxwell> and none of those should do that. :-/
1297 2013-03-31 08:37:58 <Scrat> one of them is faking it!
1298 2013-03-31 08:38:05 <gmaxwell> yea likely.
1299 2013-03-31 08:38:50 <sydna> connect back to each one individually and compare the TX? that's easy enough
1300 2013-03-31 08:39:08 <sydna> I've done that a couple of times to compare the latency between nodes.. for fun.
1301 2013-03-31 08:39:27 <gmaxwell> I'll just switch to a patch that logs IPs on incoming transactions and see when it happens again.
1302 2013-03-31 08:40:00 <sydna> you'll get different peers that way though, won't you?
1303 2013-03-31 08:41:03 <sydna> a couple of instances of bitcoin-sniffer is more fun.
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1307 2013-03-31 08:54:21 <warren> gmaxwell: we figured out what happened. It's kind of funny actually.
1308 2013-03-31 08:55:32 xQuasar has joined
1309 2013-03-31 08:55:40 <xQuasar> BITCOINS CAN SUCK MY FUCKING COCK NIGGERS
1310 2013-03-31 08:56:02 <gmaxwell> warren: someone got pool software that was fixed for the bitcoin block version change.
1311 2013-03-31 08:56:44 <gmaxwell> warren: you can tell me that I'm right at any point in time.
1312 2013-03-31 08:56:57 <warren> yup
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1314 2013-03-31 08:57:30 <gmaxwell> "copy bitcoin stuff less blindly nexttime genuises" :P
1315 2013-03-31 08:57:35 <warren> gmaxwell: and we know exactly who it is, the pool that's been ~50% of the hash power for the past few months ... I'm guessing they went ahead and rebased litecoind as a competitive advantage.
1316 2013-03-31 08:58:19 <gmaxwell> warren: oh I think you're probably not correct there.
1317 2013-03-31 08:58:25 <warren> oh? ok.
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1319 2013-03-31 08:59:39 <gmaxwell> I expect they updated to a later eloipool or whatever daemon they are using to generate blocks. and whatever it is was panic updated to support height in coinbase in the last month and now produces v2 blocks.
1320 2013-03-31 09:00:09 <warren> hah
1321 2013-03-31 09:00:31 <sydna> I'm guessing that nobody really holds LTC in high regard?
1322 2013-03-31 09:00:54 <gmaxwell> hm? my comments are not reflecting any regard for ltc in any particular direction.
1323 2013-03-31 09:01:03 <warren> sydna: the speculators do, amazingly. I'm shaking my head amazed that this hasn't blown up due to lack of attention.
1324 2013-03-31 09:02:07 <warren> It's really a testament to Satoshi that it hasn't killed itself yet.
1325 2013-03-31 09:02:18 <Perdos> if it blew up the attention would increase
1326 2013-03-31 09:02:35 <warren> gmaxwell: hmm, first v2 block in LTC began Sun, 12 Aug 2012 19:50:06 GMT
1327 2013-03-31 09:03:00 <gmaxwell> that probably is someone screwing around.
1328 2013-03-31 09:03:24 <gmaxwell> do the current block in question have height in coinbase?
1329 2013-03-31 09:06:18 <warren> I'm not sure how to see that.
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1340 2013-03-31 09:42:14 <doublec> warren: what pool software is this?
1341 2013-03-31 09:42:55 <doublec> oh litecoin pool, I see
1342 2013-03-31 09:43:32 <warren> doublec: gmaxwell's explanation makes the most sense
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1359 2013-03-31 10:22:41 <MC1984> anyone still producing empty blocks?
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1364 2013-03-31 10:29:11 <Bluetegu> Hi there. Yesterday I compiled bitcoind and run it as daemon. This morning I found out the server crashed with out-of-memory errors. Any idea where to start fixing this? Thanks
1365 2013-03-31 10:29:45 <sipa> Bluetegu: we've been working on memory issues very recently
1366 2013-03-31 10:30:08 tvbcof_ has left ("WeeChat 0.4.0")
1367 2013-03-31 10:30:15 <sipa> Bluetegu: if you don't mind running bleeding-edge code, you can test current git master
1368 2013-03-31 10:30:42 <Bluetegu> I actually got it from git master yesterday
1369 2013-03-31 10:31:19 <sipa> the patch i'm referring to was merged about 6 hours ago
1370 2013-03-31 10:32:02 <Bluetegu> Yes, I pulled and got something
1371 2013-03-31 10:32:08 jkal has joined
1372 2013-03-31 10:32:36 <Bluetegu> Should I simply recompile and run, or are there any flags that would help with debugging?
1373 2013-03-31 10:33:09 <sipa> not really; just running the new code as-is should improve memory usage a lot; especially when you have many connections
1374 2013-03-31 10:33:41 <Bluetegu> Ok, great. Many thanks for your prompt response
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1388 2013-03-31 10:58:58 <MC1984> <sam> mmmh I upgraded an old box from client 0.6.2 to 0.8.1 and it's now downloading all the old blockchain histry
1389 2013-03-31 10:58:58 <MC1984> <MC1984> no its reindexing it
1390 2013-03-31 10:58:58 <MC1984> <sam> but it seems stuck at 3360 blocks ago (ie. the blockchain fork)
1391 2013-03-31 11:00:24 <sipa> how long has it been stuck? wait an hour or so
1392 2013-03-31 11:01:02 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1393 2013-03-31 11:01:44 copumpkin has joined
1394 2013-03-31 11:02:54 <Bluetegu> I compiled the new code, and run it. For some reason it didn't return the prompt after I run bitcoind -daemon. Is this ok?
1395 2013-03-31 11:03:11 <Bluetegu> It is running and returning getinfo
1396 2013-03-31 11:03:34 kalleboo has joined
1397 2013-03-31 11:03:52 <MC1984> http://i.imgur.com/vKYd9xe.png
1398 2013-03-31 11:04:03 <MC1984> hs also got the you may need to upgrade warning
1399 2013-03-31 11:04:13 <MC1984> looks like its stuck?
1400 2013-03-31 11:04:32 <MC1984> <MC1984> sam check debug.log?
1401 2013-03-31 11:04:35 <MC1984> <sam> MC1984: lots of InvalidChainFound it seems
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1404 2013-03-31 11:05:15 <sipa> MC1984: you haven't answered my question :)
1405 2013-03-31 11:05:38 <sipa> it may be that he just had the old bad chain already on disk, and his client didn't see the new one yet
1406 2013-03-31 11:05:47 <MC1984> <sam> stuck at ~3360 blocks for 1 hour now
1407 2013-03-31 11:06:04 <MC1984> i dunno
1408 2013-03-31 11:06:08 <MC1984> thought it may be important
1409 2013-03-31 11:06:11 <sipa> ;;tslb
1410 2013-03-31 11:06:15 <gribble> Time since last block: 3 minutes and 23 seconds
1411 2013-03-31 11:06:17 <sipa> hmm
1412 2013-03-31 11:06:58 kjdsfjdkfds has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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1415 2013-03-31 11:10:32 <MC1984> http://pastebin.com/TmaS0Q5x
1416 2013-03-31 11:11:53 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
1417 2013-03-31 11:11:54 <gribble> 228910
1418 2013-03-31 11:12:16 <MC1984> i dont know whats going on with this guy
1419 2013-03-31 11:12:25 <sipa> MC1984: seems his chainstate database is corrupted, but not at the point of the fork
1420 2013-03-31 11:12:32 <sipa> MC1984: tell him to start with -reindex
1421 2013-03-31 11:12:41 <MC1984> he already did
1422 2013-03-31 11:13:15 <MC1984> i though leveldb was almost impossible to corrupt
1423 2013-03-31 11:13:35 <sipa> i thought so too
1424 2013-03-31 11:13:54 dbe has joined
1425 2013-03-31 11:14:03 <sam> MC1984: I'm here too, just in case :)
1426 2013-03-31 11:14:17 dbe is now known as Guest29314
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1428 2013-03-31 11:14:45 <MC1984> welp now i can stop playing chinese whispers
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1430 2013-03-31 11:16:47 <Bluetegu> sipa, tailing debug.log I get:
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1435 2013-03-31 11:19:44 <MC1984> ResendWalletTransactions()
1436 2013-03-31 11:19:52 <MC1984> never seen that one before?
1437 2013-03-31 11:20:05 <sipa> it happens from time to time
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1455 2013-03-31 11:40:06 <sydna> gmaxwell: you remember we mentioned private key creation before?
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1466 2013-03-31 12:02:58 phma__ has joined
1467 2013-03-31 12:03:44 daviddd has joined
1468 2013-03-31 12:04:01 <daviddd> WTB SOME BTC
1469 2013-03-31 12:05:28 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1470 2013-03-31 12:06:14 i2pRelay has joined
1471 2013-03-31 12:07:43 random_cat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1472 2013-03-31 12:07:43 MobiusL has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1476 2013-03-31 12:08:12 wrabbit has joined
1477 2013-03-31 12:09:44 MobiusL has joined
1478 2013-03-31 12:10:28 <daviddd> Confirmed : Reina,Johnson,agger,carrragher,Enrique,Lucas,gerrard,Henderson,coutinho,downing,Suarez Subs : jones,Coates,skrtel,shelvey,sterling,suso,Sturbridge
1479 2013-03-31 12:11:34 i2pRelay has joined
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1482 2013-03-31 12:19:25 kalleboo is now known as away!~kalleboo@i118-18-140-128.s11.a046.ap.plala.or.jp|kalleboo
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1489 2013-03-31 12:27:38 i2pRelay has joined
1490 2013-03-31 12:29:10 <MC1984> what
1491 2013-03-31 12:29:59 bitcoining has joined
1492 2013-03-31 12:30:40 <daviddd> WTB BTC
1493 2013-03-31 12:32:37 int0x27h has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1494 2013-03-31 12:32:38 jkal has joined
1495 2013-03-31 12:32:47 Ashaman has joined
1496 2013-03-31 12:33:31 BlackBird_ has joined
1497 2013-03-31 12:33:40 <BlackBird_> hi
1498 2013-03-31 12:34:17 <BlackBird_> how can I become a bitcoin developer ? I found the article by satoshi nakamoto
1499 2013-03-31 12:34:20 <BlackBird_> any other doc ?
1500 2013-03-31 12:35:08 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1502 2013-03-31 12:37:11 <warren> BlackBird_: read everything on the bitcoin.it wiki
1503 2013-03-31 12:37:26 <warren> some of it is even true
1504 2013-03-31 12:37:28 <BlackBird_> i know c++
1505 2013-03-31 12:37:43 <BlackBird_> i need info on the source code evthg
1506 2013-03-31 12:38:19 <BlackBird_> is there a list of todo things i want to start with sthg easy
1507 2013-03-31 12:38:41 <sydna> writing words properly would help.
1508 2013-03-31 12:39:12 <sydna> here's 339 open issues to read though â https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues
1509 2013-03-31 12:40:00 dvide has joined
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1513 2013-03-31 12:42:55 <Wayward> Random FYI:
1514 2013-03-31 12:43:01 da2ce7 has joined
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1516 2013-03-31 12:43:27 <Wayward> In 3 weeks 3 hours running; Bitcoin has I/O Bytes Read a total of 5 petabytes from my harddrive (database)
1517 2013-03-31 12:43:36 <kermit_> hi
1518 2013-03-31 12:43:41 i2pRelay has joined
1519 2013-03-31 12:43:42 <kermit_> does gcc know about #pragma once
1520 2013-03-31 12:43:59 <sydna> Wayward: that's impressive.
1521 2013-03-31 12:44:15 <Wayward> Bitcoin-QT rather
1522 2013-03-31 12:44:38 <sipa> Wayward: that's 3 MiB/s
1523 2013-03-31 12:44:43 <sipa> more than i'd expect
1524 2013-03-31 12:44:51 <Wayward> that's what task manager said.
1525 2013-03-31 12:44:52 <sydna> beat me to it sipa.
1526 2013-03-31 12:44:55 <Wayward> I'm sure much of it is cached bytes
1527 2013-03-31 12:44:57 <sipa> wait
1528 2013-03-31 12:45:05 <sipa> that's 3 GiB/s
1529 2013-03-31 12:45:15 <sipa> that's not possible :)
1530 2013-03-31 12:45:17 <Wayward> no
1531 2013-03-31 12:45:18 <kermit_> Wayward, good cacheing should have helped
1532 2013-03-31 12:45:25 <Wayward> it was only ticking up about 5000 bytes a second
1533 2013-03-31 12:45:29 <kermit_> to reduce IO
1534 2013-03-31 12:45:30 <Wayward> rate
1535 2013-03-31 12:45:48 <BlackBird_> is it difficult to start contributing ?
1536 2013-03-31 12:45:49 <Wayward> maybe it jumps time to time
1537 2013-03-31 12:45:59 <BlackBird_> what is the code quality overall
1538 2013-03-31 12:46:01 <sydna> I'm more inclined to believe that the reading is wrong, rather than 5PB actually being read
1539 2013-03-31 12:46:14 <Wayward> Well, in Windows 7
1540 2013-03-31 12:46:20 <Wayward> Other people check your task manager and report
1541 2013-03-31 12:46:21 <kermit_> BlackBird, some placed might need some cleaning
1542 2013-03-31 12:46:33 <kermit_> but overall looks ok
1543 2013-03-31 12:46:36 <sydna> I doubt any of my drives could read 5PB before packing up
1544 2013-03-31 12:46:39 <Wayward> I'd take a screen cap but I already closed QT because the Debug Window was detached -- couldn't communicate anymore
1545 2013-03-31 12:46:45 <sipa> BlackBird_: the code isn't particular well organized
1546 2013-03-31 12:46:49 <Wayward> which by the way
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1548 2013-03-31 12:47:01 <BlackBird_> ok :)
1549 2013-03-31 12:47:02 <sipa> BlackBird_: but refactorings aren't highest priority (unfortunately)... we have to be very conservative
1550 2013-03-31 12:47:05 <Wayward> Bug: Bitcoin-QT Debug Window loses connection to itself after so long running.
1551 2013-03-31 12:47:12 <Wayward> You can type into the console and nothing happens
1552 2013-03-31 12:47:16 grau has joined
1553 2013-03-31 12:47:18 <Wayward> Just echo
1554 2013-03-31 12:47:19 <BlackBird_> i see
1555 2013-03-31 12:47:37 <sipa> BlackBird_: one thing that is always welcome are unit tests for the existing code
1556 2013-03-31 12:47:44 <BlackBird_> hm
1557 2013-03-31 12:47:46 <sipa> BlackBird_: we don't have 100% code coverage, and we should
1558 2013-03-31 12:47:46 <BlackBird_> i prefer to code
1559 2013-03-31 12:47:47 <BlackBird_> :)
1560 2013-03-31 12:47:51 <sipa> yeah, most people do :D
1561 2013-03-31 12:48:04 <daviddd> WTB BTC
1562 2013-03-31 12:48:11 <BlackBird_> who has the last word on what changes get accepted ? jeff ?
1563 2013-03-31 12:48:19 <sydna> daviddd: nobody does, go away.
1564 2013-03-31 12:48:27 <BlackBird_> who's bitcoin's linus ?
1565 2013-03-31 12:48:33 <Wayward> that's why no changes get made :)
1566 2013-03-31 12:48:45 <sipa> BlackBird_: gavin is the lead developer
1567 2013-03-31 12:48:53 <BlackBird_> okay
1568 2013-03-31 12:48:59 <sipa> BlackBird_: but merging is done based on consensus, really
1569 2013-03-31 12:49:18 <BlackBird_> any incentive to contribute ? btc ?
1570 2013-03-31 12:49:22 <BlackBird_> or just free
1571 2013-03-31 12:49:31 <sipa> for some testing tasks, there can be bounties
1572 2013-03-31 12:49:33 <sydna> who do you imagine would be paying you?
1573 2013-03-31 12:49:41 <sipa> but in general, no
1574 2013-03-31 12:49:44 <BlackBird_> ok
1575 2013-03-31 12:49:56 <sipa> i'm not paid in any case, and i certainly spend several hours per week coding :)
1576 2013-03-31 12:50:13 <sipa> gavin works on it full time, and is paid by the bitcoin foundation
1577 2013-03-31 12:50:25 <sipa> but the rest of the developers are volunteers
1578 2013-03-31 12:50:27 <BlackBird_> i did not know that
1579 2013-03-31 12:50:49 <BlackBird_> if btc becomes big, bitcoin developers will be in high demand by some companies, banks
1580 2013-03-31 12:50:58 <BlackBird_> they could make a lot of money in the future who knows
1581 2013-03-31 12:51:01 <sydna> banks already have developers.
1582 2013-03-31 12:51:10 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1583 2013-03-31 12:51:29 <BlackBird_> sydna: give me a break i know how they are
1584 2013-03-31 12:51:42 i2pRelay has joined
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1586 2013-03-31 12:53:31 <Perdos> what is the deal with gnupg, it seems to me that it's constantly mangling blocks, or maybe it's enigmail. just took me almost an hour's work to finally sort out importing keys a friend sent me. hm. offtopic. nvm
1587 2013-03-31 12:53:54 <Perdos> i made it work, anyways ^_^
1588 2013-03-31 12:54:38 <BlackBird_> a linux kernel can make 250,000 usd a year
1589 2013-03-31 12:54:50 <BlackBird_> maybe in 5 years a bitcoin dev can make that
1590 2013-03-31 12:54:56 <BlackBird_> developer
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1601 2013-03-31 13:06:05 <MC1984> i surpised more of these startups dont subsidise development more
1602 2013-03-31 13:06:26 <MC1984> a stipend to individuals othr than gavin
1603 2013-03-31 13:07:04 <MC1984> doesnt even have to be thru the foundation, just an address
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1640 2013-03-31 13:36:33 <skinnkavaj> did satoshi hide functions in the software that is not used today?
1641 2013-03-31 13:36:52 Z0rZ0rZ0r has joined
1642 2013-03-31 13:38:31 <MC1984> hide?
1643 2013-03-31 13:38:49 <MC1984> lots has been deprecated and stripped out
1644 2013-03-31 13:38:57 <MC1984> suprised if he has something hidden though
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1649 2013-03-31 13:42:50 <gdbz> skinnkavaj | did satoshi hide functions in the software that is not used today?
1650 2013-03-31 13:42:57 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1651 2013-03-31 13:42:57 whiterabbit is now known as wrabbit
1652 2013-03-31 13:42:58 <gdbz> hehe, how would you know that. If it's hidden
1653 2013-03-31 13:43:26 <sipa> i wonder how many lines of code are still in the codebase that haven't been touched since satoshi
1654 2013-03-31 13:43:51 lodse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1655 2013-03-31 13:44:04 <gdbz> git diff --first-commit?
1656 2013-03-31 13:44:22 <sipa> git blame | fgrep s_nakamoto
1657 2013-03-31 13:44:29 <gdbz> :D
1658 2013-03-31 13:45:03 rdymac has joined
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1660 2013-03-31 13:45:33 TD has joined
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1662 2013-03-31 13:46:13 <sipa> 6249 out of 34833 lines
1663 2013-03-31 13:46:18 <sipa> more than i expected
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1670 2013-03-31 13:58:04 <redeeman> is it possible to decrypt ones wallet.dat?
1671 2013-03-31 13:59:10 maikie has joined
1672 2013-03-31 13:59:17 <maikie> Habla español alguien?
1673 2013-03-31 14:00:18 <redeeman> english
1674 2013-03-31 14:00:38 <sipa> redeeman: if you mean remove the encryption on-disk, no
1675 2013-03-31 14:02:56 duckybsd has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1685 2013-03-31 14:18:24 <skinnkavaj> Why is difficulty set to 10 minutes per block? (why not shorter)
1686 2013-03-31 14:18:58 <TD> it's a tradeoff
1687 2013-03-31 14:19:32 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1688 2013-03-31 14:19:45 <TD> if you make it shorter you waste more energy
1689 2013-03-31 14:19:52 <Luke-Jr> not much point to shorter
1690 2013-03-31 14:20:04 i2pRelay has joined
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1692 2013-03-31 14:22:08 <kfreds> TD: Why would that waste more energy?
1693 2013-03-31 14:23:32 <sipa> kfreds: in side-chains
1694 2013-03-31 14:23:55 <sipa> miners would more frequently be working on outdated blocks
1695 2013-03-31 14:24:11 rdymac has joined
1696 2013-03-31 14:24:22 <sipa> though i disagree that that is wasted energy
1697 2013-03-31 14:24:49 <sipa> all that matters is the percentage of effective hashpower an attacker can obtain during a given time
1698 2013-03-31 14:25:54 kalleboo has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
1699 2013-03-31 14:26:32 <kfreds> Ah, I see.
1700 2013-03-31 14:26:53 <sipa> the reason is (imho), that an attacker doesn't suffer from this "wasted" fraction of hashpower
1701 2013-03-31 14:27:09 <sipa> while competing miners do
1702 2013-03-31 14:27:23 * TD was just paraphrasing how satoshi explained it
1703 2013-03-31 14:27:34 <TD> yeah. i think that's why he described it as wasted
1704 2013-03-31 14:27:34 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1705 2013-03-31 14:27:57 <sipa> so the larger you let the potential waste of competing miners vs a centralized attacker become, the more advantage you give to the attacker
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1707 2013-03-31 14:28:12 <sipa> but i suppose that's a form of waste, yeah
1708 2013-03-31 14:28:24 <TD> it's also quite dependent on propagation speeds
1709 2013-03-31 14:28:37 <TD> if blocks take 1 minute to globally propagate then you waste 10% of the power
1710 2013-03-31 14:28:57 <TD> so it's not an arbitrary choice. but it could have been, say, 5 minutes and we'd be having exactly the same discussion
1711 2013-03-31 14:29:16 <kfreds> Right. I hadn't thought about this before. I think I'll have to read the paper again. It's been a few years anyway :)
1712 2013-03-31 14:30:56 <Scrat> Flushed wallet.dat 10854ms
1713 2013-03-31 14:30:57 <Scrat> ffff
1714 2013-03-31 14:32:25 saulimus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1715 2013-03-31 14:32:42 saulimus has joined
1716 2013-03-31 14:34:15 <sipa> Scrat: what system is that?
1717 2013-03-31 14:35:36 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1718 2013-03-31 14:36:02 <Scrat> sipa: quad xeon, mdadm raid 1, 7200 rpm drives / load average 2-3, no smart/dmesg errors, all other daemons never take more than a second to read stuff from the drive
1719 2013-03-31 14:36:09 i2pRelay has joined
1720 2013-03-31 14:36:24 <sipa> OS?
1721 2013-03-31 14:36:35 <Scrat> wallet.dat at 1.3 MB
1722 2013-03-31 14:37:16 <Scrat> Boontoo 12.04 amd64 (3.2.0)
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1732 2013-03-31 14:55:19 <realazthat> sipa: is there a way to find outputs that involve a particular bitcoin address?
1733 2013-03-31 14:55:32 <sipa> realazthat: not without an address-based index
1734 2013-03-31 14:55:40 <sipa> realazthat: so you can't do anything address based (for now)
1735 2013-03-31 14:56:01 <realazthat> ok
1736 2013-03-31 14:56:06 <realazthat> well I can build it externally
1737 2013-03-31 14:56:11 <realazthat> but I imagine that would take a while
1738 2013-03-31 14:56:28 <sipa> you shouldn't
1739 2013-03-31 14:56:52 <realazthat> ok
1740 2013-03-31 14:57:04 <sipa> i mean: it's certainly useful, but that warrants a more efficient system to maintain that index, either inside bitcoins or externally
1741 2013-03-31 14:57:49 <realazthat> can't we just use a hash-set or somesuch
1742 2013-03-31 14:58:16 <sipa> of course; the datastructure isn't the problem, it's maintaining it
1743 2013-03-31 14:59:30 <realazthat> ok, so this sort of dead-ends where I can go
1744 2013-03-31 14:59:42 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1745 2013-03-31 14:59:44 <realazthat> the outputs are basically addresses, but I cannot link to anything
1746 2013-03-31 14:59:51 rbecker is now known as RBecker
1747 2013-03-31 14:59:52 <sipa> outputs are not addresses!
1748 2013-03-31 14:59:52 <realazthat> ie. if there is a further transaction that uses it
1749 2013-03-31 15:00:14 i2pRelay has joined
1750 2013-03-31 15:00:16 <sipa> yeah, you can only walk back, not forward
1751 2013-03-31 15:00:29 <sipa> though you can use gettxout to check whether a particular output is spent or not
1752 2013-03-31 15:00:35 <realazthat> outputs aren't addresses?
1753 2013-03-31 15:00:45 <realazthat> erm I know they are scripts
1754 2013-03-31 15:00:49 Guest12189 is now known as EricJ
1755 2013-03-31 15:00:54 <sipa> outputs are (txid,index,amount,script)
1756 2013-03-31 15:00:54 <realazthat> but the two conventional outputs are addresses, right?
1757 2013-03-31 15:01:08 <sipa> and typical outputs have a script that conforms to an address template
1758 2013-03-31 15:01:13 <realazthat> right
1759 2013-03-31 15:01:19 <sipa> but please _please_ don't say that an output _is_ an address
1760 2013-03-31 15:01:30 <realazthat> I got that; I already wrote a partical blockchain parser haha
1761 2013-03-31 15:01:48 <realazthat> I mean for intents and purposes of a block explorer and going forward, it is an address
1762 2013-03-31 15:01:59 <realazthat> other non-template outputs aren't
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1764 2013-03-31 15:02:22 vigilyn has joined
1765 2013-03-31 15:02:25 <sipa> right
1766 2013-03-31 15:02:32 <sipa> but inputs are previous outputs
1767 2013-03-31 15:05:31 <MC1984> 14000 ish FVN left?
1768 2013-03-31 15:05:42 <sipa> FVN?
1769 2013-03-31 15:05:58 D34TH has joined
1770 2013-03-31 15:06:05 <MC1984> fully verifier node
1771 2013-03-31 15:06:26 <sipa> maybe; how do you know?
1772 2013-03-31 15:07:24 <MC1984> from bitcoind output
1773 2013-03-31 15:07:34 <MC1984> 14012 new
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1775 2013-03-31 15:07:55 <sipa> it only maintains a limited number of IPs
1776 2013-03-31 15:08:00 <MC1984> probably not all of those exist any more
1777 2013-03-31 15:08:11 <sipa> and new are just announced IPs, not ones you've actually connected to yourself
1778 2013-03-31 15:08:15 i2pRelay has joined
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1780 2013-03-31 15:08:30 <sipa> bitcoind is not a crawler :)
1781 2013-03-31 15:08:33 <MC1984> yeah its been around 3900 tried for a long time
1782 2013-03-31 15:08:48 <MC1984> doesnt look like a bitcoind tries a whole lot of new nodes
1783 2013-03-31 15:08:56 <sipa> it doesn't
1784 2013-03-31 15:09:03 <sipa> (it should, imho)
1785 2013-03-31 15:09:13 <MC1984> ok
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1788 2013-03-31 15:10:55 <MC1984> so theres probably atleast 14000 nodes left
1789 2013-03-31 15:11:13 <sipa> why?
1790 2013-03-31 15:11:19 <MC1984> assuming bitcoind doesnt pass around ips it hasnt tried and thus dead nodes get stripped out quickly
1791 2013-03-31 15:11:34 <sipa> it does pass them around
1792 2013-03-31 15:11:37 <sipa> as it can only try a few
1793 2013-03-31 15:11:54 wallet42 has joined
1794 2013-03-31 15:12:06 <MC1984> hm
1795 2013-03-31 15:12:29 <wallet42> greetings, how can i find out with bitcoind if an output as been spend
1796 2013-03-31 15:12:29 Guest35330 is now known as EvanR2
1797 2013-03-31 15:12:41 <sipa> bitcoind is _not_ a crawler, you cannot get any useful information about the network with it
1798 2013-03-31 15:12:51 <sipa> wallet42: gettxout RPC call
1799 2013-03-31 15:13:17 <MC1984> just seeing if i could try and work out a very rough estimate
1800 2013-03-31 15:13:30 <sipa> you can't
1801 2013-03-31 15:13:33 <MC1984> or more importantly whether FVNs are trending up or down
1802 2013-03-31 15:13:44 <sipa> there are over 600000 IPs being passed around
1803 2013-03-31 15:13:55 <sipa> only 1.5% is reachable or so
1804 2013-03-31 15:14:19 <MC1984> what are those numbers from?
1805 2013-03-31 15:14:23 <sipa> my crawler
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1807 2013-03-31 15:14:32 <MC1984> oh
1808 2013-03-31 15:15:09 <MC1984> 10,000 ish nodes
1809 2013-03-31 15:15:13 <MC1984> maybe
1810 2013-03-31 15:15:29 <sipa> probably less
1811 2013-03-31 15:15:44 <MC1984> :(
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1816 2013-03-31 15:20:58 <kermit_> anyone
1817 2013-03-31 15:21:04 <kermit_> i found this in picocoin coide
1818 2013-03-31 15:21:12 <kermit_> i say this is essentially the same as zero
1819 2013-03-31 15:21:14 <kermit_> GUINT32_TO_LE((uint32_t) (vi >> 32))
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1821 2013-03-31 15:21:30 <kermit_> this is juts 0 (zero)
1822 2013-03-31 15:21:48 <sipa> what data type is vi?
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1824 2013-03-31 15:22:12 <kermit_> uint32_t
1825 2013-03-31 15:22:18 <sipa> in that case, yes
1826 2013-03-31 15:22:40 <kermit_> ok,., maybe it was something else in the past who knows
1827 2013-03-31 15:22:47 <kermit_> its not my code (picocoin)
1828 2013-03-31 15:22:51 <kermit_> anyway
1829 2013-03-31 15:23:08 <kermit_> is there an easyway to find out the indianness of a platform?
1830 2013-03-31 15:23:22 <kermit_> int C
1831 2013-03-31 15:23:29 <realazthat> hmm is there a way not to deal with floating point values
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1834 2013-03-31 15:23:50 <sipa> realazthat: always work with integers; only convert to float when visualizing
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1836 2013-03-31 15:24:40 <realazthat> but ... rpc gives output and other stuff in fp
1837 2013-03-31 15:24:54 <realazthat> in decimal rather
1838 2013-03-31 15:25:10 <sipa> yes, convert to integer on input
1839 2013-03-31 15:25:44 <realazthat> oh I should multiply by some precision to integer?
1840 2013-03-31 15:25:51 <sipa> yes, absolutely
1841 2013-03-31 15:25:58 <sipa> don't ever deal with floats internally
1842 2013-03-31 15:26:27 <realazthat> what integer should I multiply btc by
1843 2013-03-31 15:26:33 <realazthat> 10^?
1844 2013-03-31 15:26:45 <sipa> 10^8
1845 2013-03-31 15:26:55 <sipa> as one satoshi is 0.00000001 BTC
1846 2013-03-31 15:27:25 o3u has joined
1847 2013-03-31 15:27:35 <realazthat> ok ty
1848 2013-03-31 15:30:50 <Wayward> [09:07] <azi`> what does this error mean "sni-qt/6642" WARN 17:04:04.333 void StatusNotifierItemFactory::connectToSnw() ?
1849 2013-03-31 15:31:15 <Wayward> [09:00] <azi`> it also says in the bottom corner "0 active connections to the BC network"
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1854 2013-03-31 15:33:27 <kermit_> 256b hashes are little endian?
1855 2013-03-31 15:38:13 <tdial> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1001307/detecting-endianness-programmatically-in-a-c-program
1856 2013-03-31 15:38:23 <wallet42> sipa, ty and is there an api call to get the tx that used the output?
1857 2013-03-31 15:38:29 <sipa> wallet42: no
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1868 2013-03-31 15:49:53 <Luke-Jr> kermit_: SHA256 hashes are big endian. Bitcoin reinterprets them as little endian under some circumstances
1869 2013-03-31 15:51:58 <wallet42> the easies way to do this would be using a leveldb query ?
1870 2013-03-31 15:52:47 <Tritonio> I am using json-rpc-client on php and I have a problem when using sendmany. All other commands work properly. But sendmany just give me this error: "PHP Warning: fopen(http://...@127.0.0.1:8332/): failed to open stream: HTTP request failed! HTTP/1.1 500 Internal Server Error"
1871 2013-03-31 15:53:32 <kermit_> Luke-Jr: why?
1872 2013-03-31 15:53:49 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
1873 2013-03-31 15:54:03 <kermit_> why deviate from SHA256 endianess?
1874 2013-03-31 15:55:23 <Luke-Jr> kermit_: because Satoshi wasn't perfect
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1879 2013-03-31 15:58:06 <kermit_> ..ok
1880 2013-03-31 15:59:14 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1881 2013-03-31 15:59:55 <kermit_> thanks Luke-Jr
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1883 2013-03-31 16:00:19 <sipa> wallet42: no, this information is simply not maintained
1884 2013-03-31 16:01:17 TriNitroToluene has joined
1885 2013-03-31 16:02:38 <wallet42> so blockchain.info has a seperate DB to store this information
1886 2013-03-31 16:02:53 denisx has joined
1887 2013-03-31 16:03:01 <sipa> it has tons of separate databases
1888 2013-03-31 16:03:11 <wallet42> kk
1889 2013-03-31 16:03:13 <wallet42> thx
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1919 2013-03-31 16:34:37 <realazthat> jzk: leave me alone
1920 2013-03-31 16:34:38 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
1921 2013-03-31 16:34:44 <realazthat> I am *trying* to get some work done
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1924 2013-03-31 16:35:31 <realazthat> sipa: ping?
1925 2013-03-31 16:35:33 <realazthat> still awake?
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1929 2013-03-31 16:37:08 <sipa> yes
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1933 2013-03-31 16:41:37 <realazthat> oh cool
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1935 2013-03-31 16:41:44 <realazthat> sipa: when do you sleep??
1936 2013-03-31 16:41:56 <sipa> don't ask
1937 2013-03-31 16:41:58 <realazthat> sipa: how do I show you what I got so far
1938 2013-03-31 16:42:18 <realazthat> should I expose my application and link it to you?
1939 2013-03-31 16:42:36 <sipa> i can't try right now, but if you put it on github i'll have a look later?
1940 2013-03-31 16:42:52 <realazthat> ok sure
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1943 2013-03-31 16:45:27 <realazthat> I'll pm the details if/when I finish (before I hit the sack)
1944 2013-03-31 16:45:46 <realazthat> I'll be afk for a few days though
1945 2013-03-31 16:45:55 <realazthat> so I might get back to you later in the week
1946 2013-03-31 16:45:59 <sipa> we can wait :)
1947 2013-03-31 16:46:05 <jzk> realazthat: do you stop mining on yontif too?
1948 2013-03-31 16:46:34 <realazthat> jzk: I don't mine
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1989 2013-03-31 17:39:50 <Luke-Jr> sipa: if 5 blocks are reversed to reorg to a longer 6 blocks, is that a 5-deep or 6-deep reorg? âº
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2015 2013-03-31 18:01:25 <sipa> Luke-Jr: is a nornal append-to-tip a 0-reorg or a 1-reorg? i'd say the former
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2035 2013-03-31 18:14:39 <Luke-Jr> sipa: good point
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2041 2013-03-31 18:17:17 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I'm thinking I should add a statusbar warning (non-safemode) if DB_CONFIG sets locks too low - would you say I should make the expected minimum a 1-deep reorg, or append-to-tip?
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2043 2013-03-31 18:17:31 <Luke-Jr> (or longer reorg?)
2044 2013-03-31 18:19:38 <Luke-Jr> TD: curious the payment protocol isn't going the usual route - normally it's a Draft BIP as it's being revised :P
2045 2013-03-31 18:20:05 * TD shrugs
2046 2013-03-31 18:20:14 <TD> i guess it doesn't matter much
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2049 2013-03-31 18:21:03 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: you should probably ask gavin, maybe he's ready to make it a bip...
2050 2013-03-31 18:21:10 i2pRelay has joined
2051 2013-03-31 18:21:22 <Luke-Jr> it doesn't matter, just interesting
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2054 2013-03-31 18:24:50 <sipa> Luke-Jr: meh, that's just for backports
2055 2013-03-31 18:25:01 <Luke-Jr> sipa: right
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2058 2013-03-31 18:28:43 <Luke-Jr> what's the math to figure out how often a reorg occurs on average? :/
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2074 2013-03-31 18:34:10 <HM> argh
2075 2013-03-31 18:34:29 <HM> when boost::bind works and std::bind doesn't you have to wonder what the hell they were up to during standardisation
2076 2013-03-31 18:34:45 <Diablo-D3> ooh ooh I know!
2077 2013-03-31 18:34:49 <Diablo-D3> its because c++ sucks!
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2079 2013-03-31 18:35:37 * HM throws an easter egg at Diablo-D3
2080 2013-03-31 18:36:36 * Diablo-D3 is immune to pagan ceremonies
2081 2013-03-31 18:36:44 <HM> fixed it
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2083 2013-03-31 18:36:56 <HM> it turns out one of my header files uses "use namespace boost" ....
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2086 2013-03-31 18:37:16 <HM> so i was mixing std::bind with boost::bind's _1 placeholder
2087 2013-03-31 18:37:19 <HM> makes me sad panda
2088 2013-03-31 18:37:33 <Diablo-D3> yeah, boost isnt compatible with c++
2089 2013-03-31 18:37:41 <Diablo-D3> its only compatible with whatever language boost turned c++ into
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2091 2013-03-31 18:38:04 <HM> you just can't handle the heat
2092 2013-03-31 18:38:27 <Diablo-D3> I can handle the heat, I just prefer using a language who's spec can be used to produce a fully functioning spec compliant compiler
2093 2013-03-31 18:39:27 <HM> erm, ok?
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2095 2013-03-31 18:39:39 <HM> C++ compilers are fairly mature
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2097 2013-03-31 18:40:55 <HM> i think the problematic C++ parsing days are long gone
2098 2013-03-31 18:41:23 <Diablo-D3> there is no such thing as a spec compliant c++ compiler.
2099 2013-03-31 18:41:49 <HM> there's no such thing as a spec complian C compiler either
2100 2013-03-31 18:41:57 <HM> *compliant
2101 2013-03-31 18:42:19 <HM> other languages have the luxury of adapting their defacto specifications to match their reference implementations
2102 2013-03-31 18:44:14 <sipa> Luke-Jr: 1-exp(-average_block_propagation_latency / average_block_time)
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2111 2013-03-31 18:53:29 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I meant in terms of time. Like a 1-deep reorg occurs every X hours
2112 2013-03-31 18:54:17 <sipa> average_block_time / (1-exp(-average_block_propagation_latency / average_block_time))
2113 2013-03-31 18:54:20 <sipa> ... i think
2114 2013-03-31 18:54:53 <sipa> oh, that's just for a fork
2115 2013-03-31 18:55:01 <Luke-Jr> ?
2116 2013-03-31 18:55:23 <sipa> nvm, i need to think longer about this :)
2117 2013-03-31 18:55:55 <Luke-Jr> I'd expect one variable to be blocks_removed_by_reorg :P
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2122 2013-03-31 18:57:57 <aviadreich> Hi guys. Is there an "official" Bitcoin python bindings library? I know of https://github.com/jgarzik/python-bitcoinrpc and https://github.com/laanwj/bitcoin-python (disclosure: I contributed some code to this one, but this does not mean I have a preference).
2123 2013-03-31 18:58:55 <Luke-Jr> aviadreich: how do you propose to have an official ANYTHING for a decentralized currency?
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2125 2013-03-31 18:59:03 <Luke-Jr> official only makes sense in terms of centralization
2126 2013-03-31 18:59:44 <aviadreich> hence the double quoted "official". I'm really asking what most/many devs are using.
2127 2013-03-31 19:00:10 <Luke-Jr> Eloipool uses bitcoinrpc, but supposedly the latest git is broken
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2129 2013-03-31 19:01:50 <aviadreich> do you happen to know why the opted for this one?
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2131 2013-03-31 19:02:11 <Luke-Jr> because it works
2132 2013-03-31 19:02:52 <jgarzik> aviadreich: jgarzik/python-bitcoinrpc has been pushed for a while, but ultimately it is a choice... nothing is "official"
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2134 2013-03-31 19:04:10 <Luke-Jr> assert(type(conn.getdifficulty()) is Decimal) <-- this is a silly test in the latter one - difficulty is the one thing that doesn't need to be Decimal type
2135 2013-03-31 19:04:11 <HM> the wiki has a python example for using the http rpc interface
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2138 2013-03-31 19:04:37 <aviadreich> jgarzik: can you point to any clear benefits/disadvantages over laanwj's?
2139 2013-03-31 19:04:54 <jgarzik> aviadreich: AFAIK more people use mine
2140 2013-03-31 19:05:08 <jgarzik> aviadreich: it's just a straight proxy, no bells or whistles
2141 2013-03-31 19:06:07 <aviadreich> jgarzik: I see.
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2143 2013-03-31 19:07:00 <aviadreich> Thanks for the info :×
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2150 2013-03-31 19:13:11 <ubuntu__> is ssl/https working on any of the mentioned python proxies?
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2152 2013-03-31 19:13:36 <aceat64> interesting, a zero fee transaction only took about 16 hours for confirmation
2153 2013-03-31 19:13:48 <aceat64> I was starting to lose hope lol
2154 2013-03-31 19:13:59 <jgarzik> ubuntu__: yes
2155 2013-03-31 19:14:20 <jgarzik> aceat64: most of my transactions are zero fee, and immediately confirmed
2156 2013-03-31 19:14:59 <aviadreich> ubuntu__: AFAIK it's broken on bitcoin-python
2157 2013-03-31 19:15:09 <aceat64> jgarzik: this was from the bitcoin wallet app on android, with only ~6 peers, perhaps most of them ignored the transaction as too small of a fee?
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2161 2013-03-31 19:20:42 <bwen> how long are confirmations for testnet?
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2163 2013-03-31 19:21:08 <BlackPrapor> I just came across this post on reddit http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1bd7e7/hypothetical_on_if_wallet_ids_like_bank_accounts/ it talks about blacklisting wallet id's, is it possible?
2164 2013-03-31 19:21:14 <realazthat> sipa: you *still* awake?
2165 2013-03-31 19:21:21 <realazthat> https://github.com/realazthat/overblock
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2168 2013-03-31 19:22:12 <BCB> ;;events davidd
2169 2013-03-31 19:22:13 <gribble> http://otc.armed.us/otc/?davidd&&&&&
2170 2013-03-31 19:22:35 <BlackPrapor> Could someone help me out on this?
2171 2013-03-31 19:22:37 <Luke-Jr> BlackPrapor: there are no wallet ids
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2173 2013-03-31 19:23:06 <BlackPrapor> ok, but would it be possible to blacklist an address then?
2174 2013-03-31 19:23:10 <Luke-Jr> yes
2175 2013-03-31 19:23:21 <Luke-Jr> but since you're supposed to use a new address for every transfer, it's a non-issue really
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2177 2013-03-31 19:23:53 <BlackPrapor> ok, thanks =)
2178 2013-03-31 19:24:01 <realazthat> sipa: I'll pm you that link just in case you miss it in here
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2180 2013-03-31 19:24:47 <BlackPrapor> Luke-Jr: I'll qoute you, if you don't mind
2181 2013-03-31 19:24:58 <Luke-Jr> BlackPrapor: I already replied myself
2182 2013-03-31 19:25:07 <BlackPrapor> ah ok =)))
2183 2013-03-31 19:25:20 <bwen> BlkacPrapor: never have all your eggs in the same basket
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2186 2013-03-31 19:28:01 <bwen> BlackPrapor: say you have 1 transaction of 10btc. And you decide to transfer 2 btc to someone. The balance of 8btc is sent to a new address in your wallet
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2188 2013-03-31 19:28:18 <bwen> so as soon as you use your btc new addresses are generated
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2191 2013-03-31 19:29:44 <BlackPrapor> bwen: I've heard about this concept, not sure though what kind of benefit it gives, its all traceable anyways
2192 2013-03-31 19:30:07 <bwen> well for one blaclisting an address is harder
2193 2013-03-31 19:30:28 <bwen> well not if you are not using the address
2194 2013-03-31 19:31:06 <bwen> but basicly its how the same works... it cannot reduce the amount of BTC from a transaction or address
2195 2013-03-31 19:31:08 <BlackPrapor> you can generate a new one, it doesn't make sense to blacklist
2196 2013-03-31 19:31:14 <bwen> its how the system* works
2197 2013-03-31 19:32:10 <bwen> the whole point of bitcoin is to be decentralized. just speaking a blacklisting defeats the whole purpose, imo
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2203 2013-03-31 19:37:45 <MC1984> anyone else notice a whole lot of mempool accept just after a block?
2204 2013-03-31 19:38:05 <MC1984> like 100 at once
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2208 2013-03-31 19:38:53 <Stimpy> anyone compiled libBitcoin for windows?
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2210 2013-03-31 19:40:45 <EmLeX> Any opers avalible for a pm here?
2211 2013-03-31 19:41:11 <gmaxwell> MC1984: 01:12 <@gmaxwell> hm. I see some weird behavior, right after a new block I got flooded with reannounced transactions.
2212 2013-03-31 19:41:52 <MC1984> broken node somewhere?
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2216 2013-03-31 19:44:26 <jgarzik> EmLeX: we're available for non-PM
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2218 2013-03-31 19:45:51 <realazthat> EmLeX: I'll take it, btc only :P
2219 2013-03-31 19:45:54 <realazthat> (jk)
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2221 2013-03-31 19:47:12 <EmLeX> jgarzik: k. I was stupid under the last "crash" and did write sell sell and that i am sorry for. but that got me a +b for the past 3 days. wondering if it is possible to get removed
2222 2013-03-31 19:48:55 qwertyoruiop is now known as zz_qwertyoruiop
2223 2013-03-31 19:49:05 <kermit_> EmLex, i am happy you pushed the price down))
2224 2013-03-31 19:49:20 <kermit_> oppertunities are awasted
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2228 2013-03-31 19:53:16 <MC1984> well maybe if youre really sorry.......
2229 2013-03-31 19:54:02 <EmLeX> Well.. i am Sorry . i was tired and diden`t think
2230 2013-03-31 19:54:07 <skinnkavaj> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1bdbsk/bitcoin_client_developers_default_to_sending/
2231 2013-03-31 19:55:54 <redeeman> the results from listtransactions, what order are they in?
2232 2013-03-31 19:55:58 <MC1984> ^that breaks anonymity
2233 2013-03-31 19:56:08 <MC1984> address reuse is bad
2234 2013-03-31 19:56:25 <Joric> who the hell cares about paper wallets
2235 2013-03-31 19:56:44 BlackPrapor has joined
2236 2013-03-31 19:57:35 <redeeman> besides, dont people using paper backups just use clients that has the common seed thing so all future generated addresses are the predictable from seed?
2237 2013-03-31 19:57:44 <skinnkavaj> Joric: Pizza delivery boys
2238 2013-03-31 19:57:44 <skinnkavaj> http://papercoin.org/
2239 2013-03-31 19:57:45 <skinnkavaj> :D
2240 2013-03-31 19:58:11 <redeeman> oh
2241 2013-03-31 19:58:18 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: who's the n00b who wrote that reddit nonsense?
2242 2013-03-31 19:58:28 <skinnkavaj> i have no idea
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2245 2013-03-31 19:58:46 <MC1984> bitcoind holding steady at 120mb for a few hours now
2246 2013-03-31 19:58:48 <MC1984> suprising
2247 2013-03-31 19:58:55 <Luke-Jr> if they want a paper wallet, they should use a client that *supports* paper wallets. I think Armory is one.
2248 2013-03-31 19:59:04 <Luke-Jr> Bitcoin-Qt might add it someday, but right now it does not
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2251 2013-03-31 19:59:15 <Joric> omg http://papercoin.org it's epic
2252 2013-03-31 19:59:22 <redeeman> Luke-Jr, i've been thinking of hacking offline wallet support into bitcoin-qt
2253 2013-03-31 19:59:40 <redeeman> so patches for this would be welcomed? cant garantuee i get around to it though
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2255 2013-03-31 19:59:55 <Luke-Jr> redeeman: that's probably going to be (non-hackingly) in 0.9 anyway
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2258 2013-03-31 20:00:12 <Luke-Jr> redeeman: collaborate with sipa, at least
2259 2013-03-31 20:00:20 <redeeman> yeah okay will do
2260 2013-03-31 20:00:26 <Luke-Jr> redeeman: read the BIP yet? :P
2261 2013-03-31 20:00:38 <redeeman> nope, only looked loosely at armory
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2263 2013-03-31 20:00:51 <redeeman> havent looked at the bitcoin codebase yet either
2264 2013-03-31 20:01:11 <Stimpy> anyone compiled libBitcoin for windows?
2265 2013-03-31 20:01:13 <Luke-Jr> I don't think Armory supports the BIP format yet
2266 2013-03-31 20:01:28 <redeeman> probably not
2267 2013-03-31 20:01:46 <Luke-Jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0032
2268 2013-03-31 20:01:53 <Joric> i see you still didn't adopt that coin control feature :( joric's sad
2269 2013-03-31 20:02:15 <Luke-Jr> Joric: too bad nobody wanted to maintain it
2270 2013-03-31 20:02:21 <Luke-Jr> Joric: it was hackish as heck
2271 2013-03-31 20:02:33 <Luke-Jr> (note, someone recently rewrote it in a much cleaner way, and that might get merged for 0.9)
2272 2013-03-31 20:02:34 <rs0> are there plans to make the location of the blockchain configurable through bitcoin-qt? currently on windows the client just puts it in %appdata% (which for lots of people corresponds to expensive solid-state storage) and you can only relocate it using a junction or symlink
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2275 2013-03-31 20:03:18 <Luke-Jr> rs0: something wrong with a symlink?
2276 2013-03-31 20:03:28 <Joric> whoa sync seems much faster in 0.8
2277 2013-03-31 20:03:29 <Luke-Jr> rs0: there's also -datadir=/path/to/whatever
2278 2013-03-31 20:04:05 <redeeman> Luke-Jr, thanks for the link, from a quick look it looks very good, i hope i will get some time to look more into it soon, alas, work is building up, but hopefully!
2279 2013-03-31 20:04:19 <Joric> with speed like this it might take a few minutes instead of days
2280 2013-03-31 20:04:28 <rs0> Luke-Jr: both of those options are great for devs and other power users
2281 2013-03-31 20:04:55 <Luke-Jr> rs0: non-power users don't have multiple drives
2282 2013-03-31 20:04:58 <redeeman> Joric, if you only just began syncing now, you may soon experience slowdown, when i synced initially it was fast at first, then became slow
2283 2013-03-31 20:05:18 <Luke-Jr> redeeman: did you use 0.7 or earlier ever? XD
2284 2013-03-31 20:05:27 <Joric> ah, right, blocks were much smaller back then
2285 2013-03-31 20:05:40 <redeeman> haha once very very long ago i had a client started, but then lost interest
2286 2013-03-31 20:05:44 <pjorrit_> ppaafgggggggg
2287 2013-03-31 20:05:56 <redeeman> im guessing 0.7 was abysmally slow?
2288 2013-03-31 20:06:22 bolapara__ has joined
2289 2013-03-31 20:06:22 <rs0> Luke-Jr: if that's still true, i doubt it will be for much longer. see for instance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_Drive
2290 2013-03-31 20:06:39 <Joric> redeeman, it was taking about 2-3 days
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2293 2013-03-31 20:08:22 <redeeman> hmm does anyone know what order listtransactions returns in? it doesnt seem to match the order the the gui shows in when sorted by data, in either direction?
2294 2013-03-31 20:08:28 <Luke-Jr> rs0: erm, that technology *keeps* it true
2295 2013-03-31 20:08:34 <Luke-Jr> rs0: the PC only sees one drive
2296 2013-03-31 20:08:39 hnz has joined
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2298 2013-03-31 20:08:59 <Luke-Jr> redeeman: order it saw transactions.
2299 2013-03-31 20:09:28 <redeeman> but this will remain constant throughout time forever, so that i can effectively use the from parameter?
2300 2013-03-31 20:09:31 <Joric> Luke-Jr, does progress bar knows about the entire size of the blockchain or it's just block count
2301 2013-03-31 20:10:03 <Luke-Jr> redeeman: also note this isn't an Apple thing. It's been around since Seagate and Samsung made them in 2007
2302 2013-03-31 20:10:04 <Joric> redeeman said it's gonna slow down
2303 2013-03-31 20:10:30 <redeeman> rs0 ^
2304 2013-03-31 20:10:31 <Luke-Jr> Joric: dunno
2305 2013-03-31 20:10:32 Z0rZ0rZ0r has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2306 2013-03-31 20:10:56 devrandom has joined
2307 2013-03-31 20:12:34 <Joric> satoshidice starts somewhere at 180k blocks if i remember right :)
2308 2013-03-31 20:13:56 <jgarzik> "legal double spends"
2309 2013-03-31 20:14:06 <MC1984> the whole change thing does seem to be fucking over many people though
2310 2013-03-31 20:14:13 <Joric> http://pastebin.com/G4BjpQYY made 'Bitcoin blockchain size to time (blk0001.dat)' with pyblockchain
2311 2013-03-31 20:14:17 <MC1984> i still remember the guy who lost 9000 coins that way
2312 2013-03-31 20:14:17 <jgarzik> I wonder if any miner will start that practice: broadcast a payout transaction, containing fee X
2313 2013-03-31 20:14:23 <Luke-Jr> MC1984: how do you figure?
2314 2013-03-31 20:14:25 <jgarzik> but mine a payout transaction, containing fee 0
2315 2013-03-31 20:14:35 <jgarzik> thus enabling competition + transmission either way
2316 2013-03-31 20:14:45 <jgarzik> if you mine the block, you keep the fee. otherwise the fee is paid.
2317 2013-03-31 20:14:45 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: meh, not worth the effort imo
2318 2013-03-31 20:14:47 <rs0> MC1984: wait, what?
2319 2013-03-31 20:14:58 <MC1984> its just hard to grok that sending coins completely exhausts an address, and the change ends up not where you might expect it to be
2320 2013-03-31 20:15:06 <Joric> oddly enough, we've been happy with a single blk0001.dat back then in 2012 )
2321 2013-03-31 20:15:18 <MC1984> hence paper wallet people get a nasty suprise
2322 2013-03-31 20:15:27 Z0rZ0rZ0r has joined
2323 2013-03-31 20:15:45 <MC1984> also not all clients have the same change policy
2324 2013-03-31 20:16:00 <MC1984> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1bd1d1/i_think_i_just_lost_90btc_are_they_stolen_help/
2325 2013-03-31 20:16:10 <CodeShark> the fact that change addresses are hidden is one of the things I least like about the satoshi client, actually :)
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2329 2013-03-31 20:17:12 <CodeShark> it's the type of "cleverness" that actually ends up confusing exactly the type of people it's intended to help
2330 2013-03-31 20:17:27 <CodeShark> while people who *get* it don't really need such cleverness in the first place
2331 2013-03-31 20:17:35 <CodeShark> they can do it themselves
2332 2013-03-31 20:17:46 <MC1984> it seems like the whole change to a random address thing is from the days when satoshi was the only game in town, and is starting to cause grief now thats changed
2333 2013-03-31 20:17:58 <gmaxwell> wtf.
2334 2013-03-31 20:18:16 <MC1984> wot
2335 2013-03-31 20:18:24 <gmaxwell> MC1984: it's an important part of using bitcoin. Without it you totally hose up privacy.
2336 2013-03-31 20:18:34 <gmaxwell> And without privacy bitcoin is pretty crappy as money.
2337 2013-03-31 20:18:49 <MC1984> im not arguing that its bad
2338 2013-03-31 20:18:55 <MC1984> i know its essential
2339 2013-03-31 20:18:55 <etotheipi__> can someone please toss me some testnet coins? mq5QRyC8id1juXJSEfA385qr6B77Wc1PR2
2340 2013-03-31 20:19:01 <gmaxwell> What burned the person in that post is thinking they can just import a key and throw away a wallet.
2341 2013-03-31 20:19:06 <MC1984> just that its obscure still
2342 2013-03-31 20:19:19 <gmaxwell> This is part of why the refernce client doesn't expose importprivkey in the gui.
2343 2013-03-31 20:19:26 <CodeShark> random addresses is ok - but 1) change addresses should come from a separate pool than addresses you use to hand out to people, 2) change addresses should appear listed in "listreceivedbyaddress" and those RPC calls (perhaps with a field indicating they are such)
2344 2013-03-31 20:19:31 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: he did what now?
2345 2013-03-31 20:19:53 <jrmithdobbs> hah, i've done some crazy shit with a live wallet but not without backups why would you burn a copy before ensuring your duplicate works?
2346 2013-03-31 20:20:05 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: imported a private key into a multibit wallet, sent funds, multibit sent change to the first address in the wallet (because multibit is bad and dumb), and then he deleted the wallet.
2347 2013-03-31 20:20:27 johnsoft1 has joined
2348 2013-03-31 20:20:32 <MC1984> etotheipi__ can you give that as a QR?
2349 2013-03-31 20:20:59 <CodeShark> and privacy is actually less of an important feature than ease-of-use
2350 2013-03-31 20:21:01 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: ha
2351 2013-03-31 20:21:04 stochasm has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2352 2013-03-31 20:21:08 <Joric> 'i think i just chopped both of my legs off please help'
2353 2013-03-31 20:21:17 <gmaxwell> etotheipi__: my logs say 21:53 < muhoo> also https://github.com/ciphermonk/Mojocoin-Faucet and http://tpfaucet.appspot.com/, i have in my notes
2354 2013-03-31 20:21:33 <etotheipi__> gmaxwell: I tried tpfaucet
2355 2013-03-31 20:21:35 <etotheipi__> it failed me
2356 2013-03-31 20:21:38 <etotheipi__> I'll try the other
2357 2013-03-31 20:21:44 <CodeShark> I'd like to be able to turn off "sending to a random change address" and just have it send change back to the same address, much of the time, for instance
2358 2013-03-31 20:21:46 <gmaxwell> etotheipi__: k, if it doesn't work lemme know.
2359 2013-03-31 20:21:53 <CodeShark> I had written a wallet to do just that
2360 2013-03-31 20:21:58 BlackPrapor has joined
2361 2013-03-31 20:22:09 <CodeShark> many times I don't really care if people know the address belongs to me
2362 2013-03-31 20:22:15 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: you shouldn't, because it doesn't just screw up your privacy which you may not care about, but it screws up privacy for all other bitcoin users.
2363 2013-03-31 20:22:16 <CodeShark> and it makes it easier to manage the keys
2364 2013-03-31 20:22:17 <Joric> CodeShark, what a nice improvement
2365 2013-03-31 20:22:36 <etotheipi__> I had a similar experience with someone importing a single address in Armory, sending 1 tx, then throwing awa ythe wallet
2366 2013-03-31 20:22:36 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2367 2013-03-31 20:23:10 <etotheipi__> that's why I put custom change addresses in Armory's advanced interface
2368 2013-03-31 20:23:11 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: it is super simple to associate wallet addresses anyway for anyone who really wants to do it
2369 2013-03-31 20:23:14 <gmaxwell> This is, as I said, a problem with allowing importing keys. Would work better if you imported a key chain, and then the change could just go back to the same key chain.
2370 2013-03-31 20:23:15 <etotheipi__> err... "Expert" interface
2371 2013-03-31 20:23:25 <etotheipi__> you can select "Send change back to first input address"
2372 2013-03-31 20:23:36 <Joric> that's what provides the 'deflational nature'
2373 2013-03-31 20:23:39 <gmaxwell> etotheipi__: great, that policy is actually what screwed this user.
2374 2013-03-31 20:23:45 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: I think convenience to end users is more important than making figuring out what addresses belong to the same wallet just a tiny bit more difficult (practically trivially so for a dedicated hacker)
2375 2013-03-31 20:24:15 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2376 2013-03-31 20:24:18 <jrmithdobbs> it doesn't add convencience though
2377 2013-03-31 20:24:23 kjdsfjdkfds has joined
2378 2013-03-31 20:24:24 <jrmithdobbs> convenience
2379 2013-03-31 20:24:30 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: So there are two issues with your statements here: there isn't an ease of use issue here, and it isn't just a matter of 'a little harder'
2380 2013-03-31 20:24:34 Perdos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2381 2013-03-31 20:24:46 <etotheipi__> I really think "addresses" should be "one-time payment codes" for your wallet
2382 2013-03-31 20:24:54 Kinnard has joined
2383 2013-03-31 20:24:54 <etotheipi__> for the total newbies, all they should see is a balance
2384 2013-03-31 20:24:58 i2pRelay has joined
2385 2013-03-31 20:24:58 <CodeShark> having to maintain backups of a bunch of hidden change addresses adds complexity to end user
2386 2013-03-31 20:24:59 <jrmithdobbs> the convenience problem is in the uis around importing/exporting, you shouldn't be importing/exporting single keys because single keys in a wallet should be considered useless if the wallet is being used properly
2387 2013-03-31 20:25:00 <etotheipi__> and a history of these one-time payment codes
2388 2013-03-31 20:25:02 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: If you multiuse addresses you end up quite rapidly with having 100% of your addresses linked by common inputs.
2389 2013-03-31 20:25:13 <gmaxwell> (the actual change part of that isn't the important thing)
2390 2013-03-31 20:25:24 <jrmithdobbs> this also adds to the security claim a bit btw, so not doing this so not ideal for much more important reasons than "convenience"
2391 2013-03-31 20:25:25 Perdos has joined
2392 2013-03-31 20:25:42 <jrmithdobbs> s/so not ideal/is not ideal/
2393 2013-03-31 20:25:47 <CodeShark> if you really want privacy then you need to know what you're doing in the first place - in which case you might as well let the end user (who is presumably knowledgeable) construct their own change addresses
2394 2013-03-31 20:25:49 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: privacy is pretty important
2395 2013-03-31 20:25:57 BlackPrapor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2396 2013-03-31 20:25:59 <CodeShark> deliberately construct them
2397 2013-03-31 20:26:00 <jrmithdobbs> CodeShark: it's not just a privacy argument, see above
2398 2013-03-31 20:26:02 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: Don't confuse privacy and anonymity.
2399 2013-03-31 20:26:11 stochasm has joined
2400 2013-03-31 20:26:38 <Joric> any coin select algorithm links your wallet addresses together just fine
2401 2013-03-31 20:26:39 <jrmithdobbs> CodeShark: the more keys your assets are spread out amongst the less likely large ammounts of your funds will be compromised by any one technical break
2402 2013-03-31 20:26:41 <CodeShark> I don't think I'm confusing privacy and anonymity
2403 2013-03-31 20:26:42 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: do you really want *everyone* to know how much money you have/make, without asking you?
2404 2013-03-31 20:26:42 <bwen> etotheipi__: http://testnet.mojocoin.com/
2405 2013-03-31 20:26:53 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: "having to maintain backups" is orthorgonal to all this, come on.
2406 2013-03-31 20:27:03 <Kinnard> What settings need to be changed in bitcoin.conf so that rpc connects can be made between computers not running on the same LAN?
2407 2013-03-31 20:27:05 <jrmithdobbs> CodeShark: treating change the way the ref client does is important for this reason as well, it is *NOT* just about privacy/anonymity!
2408 2013-03-31 20:27:15 <jrmithdobbs> stop thinking it is
2409 2013-03-31 20:27:15 <CodeShark> if all your keys are still in a single wallet then it's no harder to steal all your keys than to steal one of them
2410 2013-03-31 20:27:23 <gmaxwell> Joric: if you do not reuse addresses any linkage is one shot: it does not propagate.
2411 2013-03-31 20:27:39 <jrmithdobbs> CodeShark: if the only plausible attack is stealing the wallet, sure
2412 2013-03-31 20:27:43 <jrmithdobbs> CodeShark: guess what? it's not
2413 2013-03-31 20:27:45 <bwen> CodeShark: ever heard of offline wallets?
2414 2013-03-31 20:27:48 <CodeShark> I'd much rather have a single master key that I keep secret
2415 2013-03-31 20:27:52 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: oh! do you know the algorithm to determine how often a N-deep reorg occurs naturally?
2416 2013-03-31 20:28:02 <CodeShark> than to have to back up a bunch of private keys (which I have to keep in the same place anyhow)
2417 2013-03-31 20:28:08 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: that's what HD wallets are for
2418 2013-03-31 20:28:30 <CodeShark> point is, having multiple keys doesn't really add security
2419 2013-03-31 20:28:46 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: depends on latency, if the network is infinately fast reorgs ~never happen.
2420 2013-03-31 20:28:54 <jrmithdobbs> CodeShark: that is a valid solution to the issue and irrelevent to what we were discussing? generatable wallets can still have the same change behaviour and by definition generate their own random stream to preserve the properties i'm talking about
2421 2013-03-31 20:28:57 <MC1984> etotheipi__ get your coins?
2422 2013-03-31 20:29:03 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: yes, but there should still be an algorithm :<
2423 2013-03-31 20:29:05 <gmaxwell> 13:05 < CodeShark> I'd much rather have a single master key that I keep secret
2424 2013-03-31 20:29:20 <jrmithdobbs> CodeShark: the thing at issue is assuming you can just import/export individual private keys from any given "wallet" implementation and expect things to actually be ok for all values of ok imaginable
2425 2013-03-31 20:29:20 <etotheipi__> MC1984: not yet, I just realized I broke Armory testnet with the latest updats
2426 2013-03-31 20:29:21 <gmaxwell> Fine, then do that. If it helps or harms you, thats your issue.
2427 2013-03-31 20:29:25 <bwen> CodeShark: Armory has a paper backup with have a root key and chain code. you can restore ALL addresses with only those 2 strings.
2428 2013-03-31 20:29:35 <gmaxwell> It's totally a seperate matter from change address handling.
2429 2013-03-31 20:29:41 <jrmithdobbs> CodeShark: because that's the expectation that guy with the multibit fuckup had, and he was wrong, and it was encouraged by the ui in the client he used
2430 2013-03-31 20:29:47 normanrichards has joined
2431 2013-03-31 20:29:49 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: I'm saying that if it comes down to security (if security were the only concern, i.e. people stealing my keys)
2432 2013-03-31 20:29:56 <CodeShark> of course it's a separate issue
2433 2013-03-31 20:30:32 <CodeShark> I was addressing jrmithdobbs "CodeShark: the more keys your assets are spread out amongst the less likely large ammounts of your funds will be compromised by any one technical break"
2434 2013-03-31 20:30:43 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: Even from security, cramming stuff into a single address and reusing it does reduce security, if only on weak mostly theoretical ways.
2435 2013-03-31 20:30:57 <CodeShark> I care more about practical, real use ways
2436 2013-03-31 20:31:14 <jrmithdobbs> they're theoretical, but could be devestatingly applicable in the future
2437 2013-03-31 20:31:19 <jrmithdobbs> they have to be considered
2438 2013-03-31 20:31:27 <MC1984> etotheipi__ well they should be waiting for you when you fix your shit lol
2439 2013-03-31 20:31:29 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: there is no competition between "practical, real use ways" here.
2440 2013-03-31 20:31:36 <CodeShark> in any case, that's a completely separate issue
2441 2013-03-31 20:31:45 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: not reusing addresses doesn't harm anything practical.
2442 2013-03-31 20:31:47 <CodeShark> I wasn't advocating using only a single key for all your transactions
2443 2013-03-31 20:32:04 <etotheipi__> MC1984: thanks :)
2444 2013-03-31 20:32:17 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2445 2013-03-31 20:32:17 <CodeShark> I was pointing out that hiding change addresses from end users probably does more harm than good
2446 2013-03-31 20:32:28 <Joric> i see bitcoin 0.8 saves blocks differently i got 4 blk files 128 megs each, how much of those i'll get after a full sync?
2447 2013-03-31 20:32:42 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: That I'm fine with, they need to be hidden before used... but after that they could be shown.
2448 2013-03-31 20:32:47 i2pRelay has joined
2449 2013-03-31 20:33:04 <gmaxwell> (denoted as change, even)
2450 2013-03-31 20:33:15 <Kinnard> @All I have a question/need help: What settings need to be changed in bitcoin.conf so that rpc connects can be made between computers not running on the same LAN?
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2460 2013-03-31 20:41:46 <Joric> blk4 is still incomplete guess it's gonna be the same amount of blk files when 0.8 finally syncronizes
2461 2013-03-31 20:42:16 <Joric> i wonder how they take 128 megs instead of 2 gigs
2462 2013-03-31 20:42:24 RBecker is now known as rbecker
2463 2013-03-31 20:42:39 rbecker is now known as RBecker
2464 2013-03-31 20:44:53 <gmaxwell> etotheipi__: get testnet coins?
2465 2013-03-31 20:45:08 <redeeman> haha im sitting here testing with live coins :|
2466 2013-03-31 20:45:20 <gmaxwell> Kinnard: add rpcallowip=192.168.*.* (as required) to your config.
2467 2013-03-31 20:45:35 <gmaxwell> redeeman: You know what they say about a fool and his money.
2468 2013-03-31 20:46:05 <bwen> redeeman: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Testnet
2469 2013-03-31 20:46:11 <redeeman> yeah well with the fractionability of bitcoin, i dont need much in the wallet to test with
2470 2013-03-31 20:46:26 <etotheipi__> gmaxwell: MC1984: yeah I got the coins now, thanks
2471 2013-03-31 20:46:43 <gmaxwell> redeeman: testnet also tends to be faster, esp with small amounts.
2472 2013-03-31 20:46:58 <Kinnard> @gmaxwell thanks
2473 2013-03-31 20:47:12 user_corrupt has joined
2474 2013-03-31 20:47:18 <redeeman> gmaxwell, now thats pretty sweet, will look into switching, though im basically done developing my application now :)
2475 2013-03-31 20:47:30 <redeeman> haha wiki page says people were trading the testcoins for real money?!
2476 2013-03-31 20:47:31 <user_corrupt> will BTC be able to compete with credit cards in transaction speeds?
2477 2013-03-31 20:47:32 <redeeman> why would anyone do that?
2478 2013-03-31 20:48:13 <MC1984> user_corrupt credit cards txn is irreversible after 6 months
2479 2013-03-31 20:48:21 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2480 2013-03-31 20:48:23 <MC1984> bitcoin ~an hour
2481 2013-03-31 20:48:29 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
2482 2013-03-31 20:48:43 saulimus has joined
2483 2013-03-31 20:48:44 <gmaxwell> user_corrupt: BTC is both a currency and a payment system, credit cards are not currencies. It's a pretty weird comparison there.
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2486 2013-03-31 20:49:06 rbecker2 is now known as RBecker
2487 2013-03-31 20:49:07 <user_corrupt> i just want to know if someone will be able to walk into a store in the future and quickly pay for someting via BTC
2488 2013-03-31 20:49:12 <MC1984> testnet seems to be slow blocks again
2489 2013-03-31 20:49:37 <bwen> user_corrupt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCYE4V6C8a8
2490 2013-03-31 20:49:41 <gmaxwell> user_corrupt: Then you're asking if they could pay quickly with the currency? Sure. Trivially. In a number of different waysâ including, perhaps, their credit cards.
2491 2013-03-31 20:49:44 <gmaxwell> (e.g. visa)
2492 2013-03-31 20:49:54 <MC1984> zero conf for low value items seems to be not too bad for physical retail
2493 2013-03-31 20:50:12 <MC1984> especially if measures to quickly detect doubl spends happen
2494 2013-03-31 20:50:15 <Joric> huh i'd say bitcoin transaction is irreversible right away, well, when it hits the network
2495 2013-03-31 20:50:24 <gmaxwell> MC1984: "quickly detect doubl spends" == pointless.
2496 2013-03-31 20:50:46 <MC1984> thats not what i read on your userpage
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2498 2013-03-31 20:50:55 <gmaxwell> MC1984: you cannot detect a finney attack. You cannot detect other double spends in a world where miners greedily don't realy high value txn given directly to them.
2499 2013-03-31 20:51:09 <gmaxwell> Joric: uh lots of transactions get reversed.
2500 2013-03-31 20:51:41 <MC1984> whos gonna finney a cup of coffee
2501 2013-03-31 20:51:46 <gmaxwell> MC1984: zero conf for low value physical retail is probably okay, if not ideal, but that has nothing to do with detecting double spends fast.
2502 2013-03-31 20:52:04 <HM> vulnerabilities and hacks have a way of becoming user friendly
2503 2013-03-31 20:52:09 <gmaxwell> MC1984: anyone, you automate it like all attacks.
2504 2013-03-31 20:52:24 <HM> with meticulous detail posted online on how to pull them off
2505 2013-03-31 20:52:27 metabyte has joined
2506 2013-03-31 20:52:46 <MC1984> finneys will need a strong and shady mining op to pull off in the future
2507 2013-03-31 20:53:05 <MC1984> probably uneconomical to rip people off for low value
2508 2013-03-31 20:53:06 <gmaxwell> MC1984: but the point is, you take their payment you copy their id.. the value is low. Who cares if it gets conflicted later? you can ban them from the store, get them harassed by the police for shoplifiting whatever. The reason it might be okay to take a zero confirmed transaction there has nothing to do with detection.
2509 2013-03-31 20:53:29 <gmaxwell> MC1984: congrats you ignored the second half of my statement.
2510 2013-03-31 20:53:31 * gmaxwell leaves
2511 2013-03-31 20:54:38 <MC1984> well i did say especially
2512 2013-03-31 20:54:41 <user_corrupt> im confused, so people may be able to go into stores and double spend on things, unless everyone sits there and waits a long time for the transfer to process?
2513 2013-03-31 20:55:05 <MC1984> implying double spend is not essential to why low value zero conf is prob ok
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2517 2013-03-31 20:56:07 <MC1984> lik i read somewhere, if you get ripped off the exact amount for a cup of coffee, youre out the cost of a coffee
2518 2013-03-31 20:56:19 <MC1984> if someone pays you with a fake 20, youre out 20
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2520 2013-03-31 20:56:30 Perdos has joined
2521 2013-03-31 20:56:31 <MC1984> btc comes out ahead
2522 2013-03-31 20:56:46 <MC1984> well 20 and his change
2523 2013-03-31 20:56:48 <MC1984> so en more
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2525 2013-03-31 20:57:20 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
2526 2013-03-31 20:57:24 <user_corrupt> but you cant wire a fake 20 to someone
2527 2013-03-31 20:57:55 <user_corrupt> hmmm
2528 2013-03-31 20:58:05 Perdos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2529 2013-03-31 20:58:33 <user_corrupt> so whats the fastest that confirmation could be processed?
2530 2013-03-31 20:58:45 <jrmithdobbs> instantly
2531 2013-03-31 20:58:49 <user_corrupt> where there is no possibility that you have been had
2532 2013-03-31 20:59:29 <MC1984> if you have complete trust in your counterparty, your transaction is instant
2533 2013-03-31 20:59:31 jkal has joined
2534 2013-03-31 20:59:34 <user_corrupt> like if im goint to sell someone my car with BTC how long will i have to wait before I know that they didnt send me something bogus
2535 2013-03-31 20:59:52 <MC1984> for a car you wait 6 confirms
2536 2013-03-31 20:59:53 Faradayy_ has joined
2537 2013-03-31 20:59:53 <jrmithdobbs> about an hour depending on network conditions
2538 2013-03-31 21:00:02 nym has joined
2539 2013-03-31 21:00:06 <Joric> omg 0.8 already got to blk0005 while 0.7 only have blk0004 guess there will be tons of those files
2540 2013-03-31 21:00:35 <user_corrupt> will the network be able to speed up at some point in the future
2541 2013-03-31 21:00:36 <user_corrupt> ?
2542 2013-03-31 21:00:46 Faradayy__ has joined
2543 2013-03-31 21:00:47 <user_corrupt> so you can get 6 confirms really fast?
2544 2013-03-31 21:01:12 <MC1984> no
2545 2013-03-31 21:01:26 <user_corrupt> eek
2546 2013-03-31 21:01:46 <rs0> faster confirmations, in the sense you're thinking of, are less secure. it's like cutting a pie into more slices
2547 2013-03-31 21:02:01 <rs0> at least, for certain types of attacks
2548 2013-03-31 21:02:07 <MC1984> its more about network time than number of confs
2549 2013-03-31 21:03:03 <user_corrupt> ok, so its still good for any kind of service that can afford to wait an hour for absolute confirmation
2550 2013-03-31 21:03:37 <MC1984> pretty good
2551 2013-03-31 21:03:40 <warren> unless you have a 25 block reorg with a double spend attack, but that never happens
2552 2013-03-31 21:03:43 <MC1984> assuming txn fees dont go crazy
2553 2013-03-31 21:04:06 <user_corrupt> or maybe you require ID to do quick bitcoin transactions
2554 2013-03-31 21:04:26 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2555 2013-03-31 21:04:46 <MC1984> how you manag your risk is up to you
2556 2013-03-31 21:04:55 <user_corrupt> or maybe a service is developed to "una nonimize" quick transactions
2557 2013-03-31 21:04:58 i2pRelay has joined
2558 2013-03-31 21:05:07 <user_corrupt> sure, but seems like something that market would have demand for i mean
2559 2013-03-31 21:05:36 random_cat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2560 2013-03-31 21:05:40 <MC1984> a simple shipping address is a pretty good disincentive to getting ripped off
2561 2013-03-31 21:05:53 <user_corrupt> true
2562 2013-03-31 21:06:18 <redeeman> to some degree
2563 2013-03-31 21:06:23 <MC1984> truth is even if you have zero risk management, the vast majority of customers wont rip you off
2564 2013-03-31 21:06:26 <user_corrupt> but im imagining like buying coffee, bus ticket, renting car, everything people use cash and cc for
2565 2013-03-31 21:06:27 <redeeman> for smaller amounts, and cross country, it may not be worth it trying to do anything
2566 2013-03-31 21:06:46 <MC1984> the ones that would will make an effort to try it on whatever you do
2567 2013-03-31 21:07:50 <warren> If only there were a payment network that relied upon centralized trust, credit history checks, and a physical token with an ID number that can be read by a machine.
2568 2013-03-31 21:08:03 MiningBuddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2569 2013-03-31 21:08:44 <user_corrupt> how does litecoin compare in this regard?
2570 2013-03-31 21:08:51 <user_corrupt> or do we not talk about litecoin here
2571 2013-03-31 21:09:04 <user_corrupt> i dont know the etiquette
2572 2013-03-31 21:09:31 <MC1984> litecoin doesnt rally give you 4x faster security than bitcoin
2573 2013-03-31 21:09:34 <MC1984> despite what people think
2574 2013-03-31 21:09:44 <user_corrupt> ok
2575 2013-03-31 21:11:07 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2576 2013-03-31 21:11:19 MiningBuddy- has joined
2577 2013-03-31 21:11:45 <user_corrupt> i guess people are just going to have to get used to whatever new vulnerabilities BTC may introduce, in exchange for all of the new benefits that it brings
2578 2013-03-31 21:12:28 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2579 2013-03-31 21:12:28 <MC1984> its not a panacea
2580 2013-03-31 21:12:30 <Joric> how many blk*.dat's in a fully syncronized 0.8?
2581 2013-03-31 21:12:58 i2pRelay has joined
2582 2013-03-31 21:13:12 random_cat has joined
2583 2013-03-31 21:14:24 <warren> Joric: what filesystem is this on?
2584 2013-03-31 21:14:27 nomailin1 has joined
2585 2013-03-31 21:14:55 <Joric> ntfs
2586 2013-03-31 21:15:05 <EvilPete> Joric: if you start a 0.8 from scratch it'll be up to blk00051.dat by now. 0.8 rolls over at 128MB, while 0.7 and earlier roll at 2GB
2587 2013-03-31 21:15:06 kermit_ has joined
2588 2013-03-31 21:15:25 <Joric> oh my
2589 2013-03-31 21:16:10 Kinnard has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2590 2013-03-31 21:17:02 <Joric> guess it still takes a few days
2591 2013-03-31 21:17:34 altgribble has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2592 2013-03-31 21:17:50 <MC1984> its the same amount of data bro
2593 2013-03-31 21:17:59 <EvilPete> Hmm. One of my clients is banning another of my clients. The upstream throws a Misbehaving client +10 each time it does a ResendWalletTransactions()
2594 2013-03-31 21:18:45 Stimpy has quit ()
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2599 2013-03-31 21:20:42 TriNitroToluene has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2600 2013-03-31 21:20:59 i2pRelay has joined
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2602 2013-03-31 21:23:03 Darin has joined
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2604 2013-03-31 21:24:56 <EvilPete> Hmm. I think a reindex may be in order.
2605 2013-03-31 21:28:32 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2606 2013-03-31 21:29:01 i2pRelay has joined
2607 2013-03-31 21:30:37 Perdos has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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2630 2013-03-31 21:47:40 <bwen> is there an example of how satoshi dice generated their bitcoin addresses?
2631 2013-03-31 21:48:53 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2632 2013-03-31 21:49:10 <warren> bwen: search for vanitygen, but it generally isn't a good idea to use vanity addresses
2633 2013-03-31 21:50:55 <bwen> yeah I just stumbled on it at bitcoinplana :P
2634 2013-03-31 21:50:59 <bwen> plaza*
2635 2013-03-31 21:51:35 svara has joined
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2641 2013-03-31 22:00:17 terry has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2642 2013-03-31 22:00:17 jkal has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2643 2013-03-31 22:00:17 poggy has quit (Write error: Broken pipe)
2644 2013-03-31 22:00:44 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2645 2013-03-31 22:00:52 nym has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2646 2013-03-31 22:00:52 Faradayy__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2647 2013-03-31 22:00:57 licnep has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2648 2013-03-31 22:00:57 Benjojo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2649 2013-03-31 22:00:57 Faradayy_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2650 2013-03-31 22:01:13 i2pRelay has joined
2651 2013-03-31 22:03:24 Guest5039 is now known as ryan|
2652 2013-03-31 22:08:15 BlackPrapor has quit (2!~kvirc@140.128.broadband15.iol.cz|Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2653 2013-03-31 22:08:45 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2658 2013-03-31 22:16:13 <bwen> is there a reason why the client on testnet keeps synchronizing and saying ~38781 blocks remaining every now and then...
2659 2013-03-31 22:16:46 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2660 2013-03-31 22:16:54 <gmaxwell> bwen: because something broken is connecting to you and claiming the block count is much higher than it is.
2661 2013-03-31 22:17:07 <gmaxwell> its harmless.
2662 2013-03-31 22:17:13 Belxjander has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2663 2013-03-31 22:17:20 i2pRelay has joined
2664 2013-03-31 22:18:32 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
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2676 2013-03-31 22:36:23 saulimus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2677 2013-03-31 22:36:37 saulimus has joined
2678 2013-03-31 22:37:15 saulimus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2679 2013-03-31 22:37:39 <graingert> gmaxwell: perhaps the GUI shouldn't update until lots of peers claim that
2680 2013-03-31 22:38:04 <graingert> s/lots of/most/
2681 2013-03-31 22:40:52 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2682 2013-03-31 22:41:01 <gmaxwell> graingert: amazing! no one thought of that before!
2683 2013-03-31 22:41:03 <gmaxwell> (thats what it does)
2684 2013-03-31 22:41:24 i2pRelay has joined
2685 2013-03-31 22:41:39 <graingert> gmaxwell: so in that case lots of things that were broken were connecting to bwen
2686 2013-03-31 22:41:53 <graingert> gmaxwell: or he's only connected to one peer
2687 2013-03-31 22:42:06 <Eliel> graingert: that latter option somehow sounds more plausible.
2688 2013-03-31 22:42:10 <bwen> 12 active connections
2689 2013-03-31 22:42:26 <graingert> Eliel: hmm
2690 2013-03-31 22:42:29 Casimir1904 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2691 2013-03-31 22:42:32 <graingert> seems like a bug then, gmaxwell
2692 2013-03-31 22:42:33 <gmaxwell> bwen: is it doing it now still? please pastbin your getpeerinfo
2693 2013-03-31 22:42:33 <Eliel> ... or not
2694 2013-03-31 22:42:41 <gmaxwell> graingert: why do you say that?
2695 2013-03-31 22:42:47 <bwen> its on and off
2696 2013-03-31 22:42:59 <graingert> gmaxwell: it's either that or bwen is being targeted
2697 2013-03-31 22:43:00 <graingert> or
2698 2013-03-31 22:43:02 <gmaxwell> Eliel: it won't display it with only a couple eers.
2699 2013-03-31 22:43:10 <gmaxwell> graingert: it's testnet, everyone is targeted.
2700 2013-03-31 22:43:14 <graingert> ohhh
2701 2013-03-31 22:43:16 <gmaxwell> It's also harmless.
2702 2013-03-31 22:43:16 <graingert> I'm a moron
2703 2013-03-31 22:43:20 <bwen> doh, closed it by accident >_<
2704 2013-03-31 22:43:36 <graingert> that's sounds like something someone would do
2705 2013-03-31 22:43:53 <gmaxwell> bwen: ... how'd you do that? In any case, next time it does itâ grab a getpeerinfo even if you don't quite get it while its still up.
2706 2013-03-31 22:43:56 <graingert> so it could be lots of people claiming an invalid block count for the lols
2707 2013-03-31 22:44:20 <graingert> or a bug
2708 2013-03-31 22:44:21 <bwen> i'll make sure to grab it next time it does
2709 2013-03-31 22:44:27 <gmaxwell> graingert: it could also be someone who modified their testnet2 hosts to use the testnet3 network byte but changed nothing else because they're foolish.
2710 2013-03-31 22:44:47 <graingert> gmaxwell: presumably 6 or so people
2711 2013-03-31 22:44:52 <graingert> all who connected to bwen
2712 2013-03-31 22:45:08 <gmaxwell> graingert: sure. there are not that many testnet nodes.
2713 2013-03-31 22:45:16 <graingert> or it's a bug
2714 2013-03-31 22:45:52 <gmaxwell> or your hair is on fire?
2715 2013-03-31 22:45:57 <graingert> not an option
2716 2013-03-31 22:46:07 Optimus-Prime_ has joined
2717 2013-03-31 22:46:14 <graingert> that wouldn't cause that behaviour in the client
2718 2013-03-31 22:46:31 <gmaxwell> We've I've seen it before I had ten connections from a single IP all claming the testnet2 height.
2719 2013-03-31 22:46:41 monst has quit ()
2720 2013-03-31 22:46:49 <graingert> also it would be a bug if my hair were on fire that caused the client to do that
2721 2013-03-31 22:47:07 Optimus-Prime has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2722 2013-03-31 22:47:07 Optimus-Prime_ is now known as Optimus-Prime
2723 2013-03-31 22:47:14 <gmaxwell> in any case, no reason to draw conclusions without information.
2724 2013-03-31 22:47:21 ponas has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2725 2013-03-31 22:47:21 <graingert> I didn't
2726 2013-03-31 22:47:24 <graingert> well I did
2727 2013-03-31 22:47:28 <graingert> but then changed my mind
2728 2013-03-31 22:47:33 jkal has joined
2729 2013-03-31 22:48:02 <graingert> :D
2730 2013-03-31 22:48:53 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2731 2013-03-31 22:49:03 <graingert> lol i2pRelay
2732 2013-03-31 22:49:26 i2pRelay has joined
2733 2013-03-31 22:49:39 <gmaxwell> why laughing? it's basically impossible to get on freenode from tor unless you're a troll.
2734 2013-03-31 22:50:11 <bwen> dont they have their on hidden service?
2735 2013-03-31 22:50:15 <bwen> own*
2736 2013-03-31 22:50:17 <midnightmagic> yeah it is remarkably hard to do that.
2737 2013-03-31 22:51:05 <gmaxwell> bwen: yea, and you can't use it unless you first go onto freenode without tor and register an account with an email address and disclose your IP.
2738 2013-03-31 22:51:27 <bwen> doesnt it defeat the purpose? O.o
2739 2013-03-31 22:51:38 <midnightmagic> bwen: Who, the i2p people? They have a sprawling IRC network that splits basically every 30 minutes or so and has at least three nodes. And it's almost impossible to have a useful conversation on it.
2740 2013-03-31 22:51:38 <gmaxwell> so basically, anyone who finds a need for privacy can't have itâ but people who want to use tor to troll channels and aren't worried about freenode finding out their vps addres.. they can do what they like.
2741 2013-03-31 22:52:21 <gmaxwell> bwen: well the use it that it lets you contribute to cover traffic on tor. So it's not useless, but its useless for privacy.
2742 2013-03-31 22:52:55 <graingert> gmaxwell: it's useful if you want to go to china after living in a speech accepting country
2743 2013-03-31 22:53:13 <graingert> gmaxwell: a very, very small use case
2744 2013-03-31 22:53:15 <gmaxwell> except you can connect to freenode fine from china.
2745 2013-03-31 22:53:20 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2746 2013-03-31 22:53:44 <graingert> gmaxwell: fine North Korea?
2747 2013-03-31 22:53:54 <graingert> gmaxwell: somewhere that blocks SSL and filters for words
2748 2013-03-31 22:54:12 <gmaxwell> In north korea you'll have problems getting network access at all.
2749 2013-03-31 22:54:13 <gmaxwell> :P
2750 2013-03-31 22:54:21 <gmaxwell> and if it filters ssl tor is somewhat hard to use
2751 2013-03-31 22:54:23 <graingert> the use case is very small
2752 2013-03-31 22:54:27 <graingert> oh yeah
2753 2013-03-31 22:54:34 <graingert> well i2p
2754 2013-03-31 22:54:46 <graingert> Tor gateway over skype?
2755 2013-03-31 22:55:05 <graingert> sigh, okay the use-case is slim
2756 2013-03-31 22:55:14 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2757 2013-03-31 22:55:16 <gmaxwell> you can use I2p to get into the bitcoin irc channels actually anonymously. ::shrugs:: I think thats a much bigger usecase.
2758 2013-03-31 22:56:06 lodse has joined
2759 2013-03-31 22:56:44 <graingert> I do hope US/Europe start cracking down on The Internet.
2760 2013-03-31 22:56:55 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2761 2013-03-31 22:56:57 <graingert> Tor will go an awful lot faster
2762 2013-03-31 22:57:28 i2pRelay has joined
2763 2013-03-31 22:57:54 metabyte has quit ()
2764 2013-03-31 22:59:40 <phantomcircuit> graingert, tor is already very fast for hidden services if the path chosen consists of fast nodes
2765 2013-03-31 23:00:01 <phantomcircuit> the problem is there are still a fair number of slow nodes and with 6 hops the odds of getting at least one remains very high
2766 2013-03-31 23:00:53 <graingert> phantomcircuit: oh hai, I thought you'd disappeared forever
2767 2013-03-31 23:01:24 <phantomcircuit> wat
2768 2013-03-31 23:01:30 <phantomcircuit> i practically live on irc
2769 2013-03-31 23:01:34 <phantomcircuit> it's actually pretty sad
2770 2013-03-31 23:02:03 <graingert> phantomcircuit: Intersango was still going last time I was really active on IRC
2771 2013-03-31 23:02:27 <phantomcircuit> it's still ticking along
2772 2013-03-31 23:02:36 <phantomcircuit> just with FAR less trading
2773 2013-03-31 23:02:38 <graingert> it's not accepting connections :/
2774 2013-03-31 23:02:52 <phantomcircuit> https only
2775 2013-03-31 23:03:27 <phantomcircuit> registration is disabled so providing http only resulting in tons of support tickets asking for an account
2776 2013-03-31 23:03:57 <graingert> ah www is broken
2777 2013-03-31 23:04:05 <graingert> as well
2778 2013-03-31 23:04:16 <phantomcircuit> shrug
2779 2013-03-31 23:04:37 <graingert> phantomcircuit: so no plans for a bank account then?
2780 2013-03-31 23:04:47 <graingert> I want my £0.00002 :p
2781 2013-03-31 23:04:52 <phantomcircuit> lol
2782 2013-03-31 23:04:58 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2783 2013-03-31 23:05:01 <phantomcircuit> intersango has no plans for a uk bank account
2784 2013-03-31 23:05:11 <graingert> what happned to Metro?
2785 2013-03-31 23:05:30 i2pRelay has joined
2786 2013-03-31 23:05:34 <phantomcircuit> stupid people being stupid combined with someone who i wont name being equally stupid
2787 2013-03-31 23:05:47 <graingert> Bitcoinica killed Metro?
2788 2013-03-31 23:05:59 <phantomcircuit> lol no
2789 2013-03-31 23:06:08 <phantomcircuit> intersango had absolutely nothing to do with bitcoinica
2790 2013-03-31 23:06:13 ponas has joined
2791 2013-03-31 23:06:13 <graingert> well yeah
2792 2013-03-31 23:06:13 <phantomcircuit> despite what tihan keeps telling people
2793 2013-03-31 23:06:17 ponas has quit (Client Quit)
2794 2013-03-31 23:06:24 ponas has joined
2795 2013-03-31 23:06:32 <graingert> but they share a common owner?
2796 2013-03-31 23:06:37 <graingert> so they are related that way
2797 2013-03-31 23:06:48 <phantomcircuit> not really
2798 2013-03-31 23:07:29 <phantomcircuit> bitcoinica is owned by tihan seale
2799 2013-03-31 23:07:42 <phantomcircuit> he'll try and bullshit about it being owned by wendon group and blah blah blah
2800 2013-03-31 23:07:47 <phantomcircuit> but he is that wendon
2801 2013-03-31 23:07:52 <phantomcircuit> there is nobody else
2802 2013-03-31 23:08:59 polrpaul has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2803 2013-03-31 23:10:20 <MC-Droid> you still have gbp deposit with sepa right
2804 2013-03-31 23:10:51 <phantomcircuit> SEPA is EUR only
2805 2013-03-31 23:11:04 <phantomcircuit> and no if you send to our GBP account
2806 2013-03-31 23:11:13 <phantomcircuit> im going to spend it on pizza and beer
2807 2013-03-31 23:12:59 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2808 2013-03-31 23:13:20 Darin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2809 2013-03-31 23:13:31 i2pRelay has joined
2810 2013-03-31 23:14:25 one_zero has joined
2811 2013-03-31 23:16:36 MC-Droid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2812 2013-03-31 23:18:23 <phantomcircuit> * MC-Droid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2813 2013-03-31 23:18:32 <phantomcircuit> i was wondering why that didn't elicit a response
2814 2013-03-31 23:18:36 <graingert> :p
2815 2013-03-31 23:18:39 <graingert> B33r
2816 2013-03-31 23:18:54 <graingert> pizza is expensive these days
2817 2013-03-31 23:19:11 <graingert> million dollar pizza
2818 2013-03-31 23:19:14 brocktice has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2819 2013-03-31 23:20:02 <phantomcircuit> graingert, someday im gonna have enough to buy everybody in here a pizza
2820 2013-03-31 23:20:05 zeiris has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2821 2013-03-31 23:20:16 nimdAHK has joined
2822 2013-03-31 23:20:19 <phantomcircuit> lol that would be like 10k usd
2823 2013-03-31 23:20:32 <graingert> phantomcircuit: at 10,000 BTC each?
2824 2013-03-31 23:20:45 <graingert> phantomcircuit: you about to do an int overflow attack?
2825 2013-03-31 23:20:52 <phantomcircuit> more like 0.215 btc each
2826 2013-03-31 23:20:58 <phantomcircuit> oh how the world has changed
2827 2013-03-31 23:21:01 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2828 2013-03-31 23:21:05 <graingert> no pizza is pegged at 10,000 btc each
2829 2013-03-31 23:21:11 <phantomcircuit> lol
2830 2013-03-31 23:21:22 <graingert> turns out that's what BTC is based on
2831 2013-03-31 23:21:33 i2pRelay has joined
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2835 2013-03-31 23:22:10 theorb is now known as theorbtwo
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2838 2013-03-31 23:23:04 <graingert> Pizza
2839 2013-03-31 23:23:14 <graingert> it's tasy, fungiable
2840 2013-03-31 23:23:21 <graingert> (you can put mushrooms on it)
2841 2013-03-31 23:23:25 johnsoft has joined
2842 2013-03-31 23:23:25 <graingert> looks a bit yellow
2843 2013-03-31 23:23:37 <graingert> you can cut it into smaller bits (slices)
2844 2013-03-31 23:24:02 <graingert> Limited supply
2845 2013-03-31 23:24:03 AtashiCon has joined
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2847 2013-03-31 23:24:37 <warren> graingert: built in demurrage
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2849 2013-03-31 23:24:46 <graingert> !google
2850 2013-03-31 23:24:47 <gribble> (google <search> [--{filter,language} <value>]) -- Searches google.com for the given string. As many results as can fit are included. --language accepts a language abbreviation; --filter accepts a filtering level ('active', 'moderate', 'off').
2851 2013-03-31 23:24:59 <graingert> !google demurrage
2852 2013-03-31 23:25:05 <gribble> Demurrage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demurrage>; Demurrage (currency) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demurrage_(currency)>; demurrage - definition of demurrage by the Free Online Dictionary ...: <http://www.thefreedictionary.com/demurrage>
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2873 2013-03-31 23:36:17 <bwen> gmaxwell: its doing it again.... http://pastebin.com/9NuLcnVt
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2876 2013-03-31 23:37:44 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
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2885 2013-03-31 23:43:52 <gmaxwell> bwen: what is your curren height?
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2893 2013-03-31 23:47:04 <bwen> how do I check ? >_<
2894 2013-03-31 23:47:37 <bwen> getblockcount?
2895 2013-03-31 23:47:50 <bwen> 63143
2896 2013-03-31 23:47:55 <gmaxwell> sure, or hover on the indicator
2897 2013-03-31 23:48:06 <gmaxwell> And what exactly is the message you're getting?
2898 2013-03-31 23:48:46 <bwen> well its gone now but it pops me ~ 38783 blocks remaining, when its synchronizing
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