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   6 2013-04-01 00:02:41 <jspilman> If you have two different people who want to pay into a single destination, would you use SIGHASH_SINGLE & SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY to sign the first input, but would SIGHASH_SINGLE work on the 2nd input... doesn't seem like it would
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   9 2013-04-01 00:03:28 <jspilman> I guess I'm asking, what does SIGHASH_SINGLE do if there are 2 inputs and 1 output, when signing the 2nd input?
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  11 2013-04-01 00:06:08 <jspilman> ok, I can see in script.cpp that it will just error saying it's out of range
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  13 2013-04-01 00:08:52 <jspilman> I was thinking of use case where buyer and seller want to pay into a multisig address, buyer pays the price of the purchase, seller puts some 'security deposit'... is there a way to use hashType so that each party can sign a transaction and know it won't complete without the full amount ending up in the multisig
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  17 2013-04-01 00:09:13 <Anduck> whats the difference in bitcoind that listens to connections and that doesnt?
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  21 2013-04-01 00:10:27 <jgarzik> Anduck: one contributes to the network more than the other
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  23 2013-04-01 00:10:48 <Anduck> hmm
  24 2013-04-01 00:10:54 <Anduck> does it eat up ram?
  25 2013-04-01 00:10:58 <Anduck> if i listen to conns
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  28 2013-04-01 00:12:00 <jgarzik> Anduck: each connection uses a certain amount of RAM, yes
  29 2013-04-01 00:12:20 <Anduck> ok thx
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  31 2013-04-01 00:14:20 <jspilman> ... I guess if there's only a single output, just use ALL.  but if there are change outputs going back to the buyer/seller there's no way :-(
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  33 2013-04-01 00:15:55 <jspilman> buyer/seller would have to send the exact amount to their own address, and then fund the multisig from there using SIGHASH_ALL | ANYONECANPAY
  34 2013-04-01 00:16:12 <jspilman> done talking to myself now :-)
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  67 2013-04-01 00:34:48 <gmaxwell> jspilman: they jointly author the payment into the multisig.
  68 2013-04-01 00:35:02 <gmaxwell> jspilman: e.g. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139581.0
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  79 2013-04-01 00:39:40 <maikie> Hola
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  85 2013-04-01 00:42:10 <jspilman> gmaxwell: exactly, it works great as long as you can map inputs 1:1 with outputs, or if there's only one output
  86 2013-04-01 00:42:44 Benjojo has joined
  87 2013-04-01 00:42:48 <jspilman> but if Alice wants to put it 5.5BTC and Bob wants to put in 0.5, they will need addresses with exactly 5.5 and 0.5 in them to use SIGHASH_ALL | ANYONECANPAY
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  89 2013-04-01 00:43:32 <jspilman> if Alice listunspent only has a txid:vout with 6BTC, and I want a single new tx that puts 5.5BTC into the multisig, but 0.5 back to Alice, while still requiring Bob to contribute his 0.5.... shit outta luck
  90 2013-04-01 00:44:00 <jspilman> but Alice can send herself the 5.5, and then go from there.  I was just trying to figure out a way to do it one-off
  91 2013-04-01 00:44:24 <maikie> One issue I recommend waiting 6 confirmations to ensure payment, because there may be an expense doubled, this is caused by a system failure or an attack, in case of an attack, it is very unlikely to happen?
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  94 2013-04-01 00:47:12 <jspilman> would need a SIGHASH_FIRST I think, although I'm not sure that would work either
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  96 2013-04-01 00:47:53 <graingert> maikie: I'd wait 26 if I were you
  97 2013-04-01 00:48:27 <maikie> There are a lot of fraud?
  98 2013-04-01 00:48:47 zylche has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  99 2013-04-01 00:49:12 <maikie> I thought oscommerce mount with bitcoin, and am not sure
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 104 2013-04-01 00:51:32 <graingert> gmaxwell:  no way of doing https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139581.0 without all the parties knowing all the owners of the bitcoin afterwards then?
 105 2013-04-01 00:52:17 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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 107 2013-04-01 00:53:57 <gmaxwell> graingert: uh, all the parties don't need to know the owners. But thats OT for the reason I brought it up here.
 108 2013-04-01 00:54:16 <gmaxwell> jspilman: you don't need sighash anything, sighash all is fine.
 109 2013-04-01 00:54:38 <graingert> gmaxwell: I'm interested in generall
 110 2013-04-01 00:54:43 <gmaxwell> jspilman: you have your parties preagree what the transaction will look like, and then each signs the whole thing, and its not valid until all sign it.
 111 2013-04-01 00:55:55 zylche_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 112 2013-04-01 00:55:57 <jspilman> yeah, you need to know more about their wallet that ideally you would have to, but I get what you're saying
 113 2013-04-01 00:56:05 <jspilman> *than
 114 2013-04-01 00:56:29 <gmaxwell> jspilman: you don't need to know anything about it beyond what you would always know.
 115 2013-04-01 00:56:57 <gmaxwell> jspilman: they tell you what inputs they want to spend. (or you tell them) one of you drafts the transaction, if you both like it, you both sign it, and it's not valid until both do.
 116 2013-04-01 00:57:11 <_g> has http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1bdbsk/bitcoin_client_developers_default_to_sending/ been talked about in here?
 117 2013-04-01 00:57:15 <gmaxwell> they would have learned what input you were spending regardless of how you handled it.
 118 2013-04-01 00:57:21 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 119 2013-04-01 00:57:46 <gmaxwell> _g: Yes, previously. The poster there is confusing two things.
 120 2013-04-01 00:57:53 i2pRelay has joined
 121 2013-04-01 00:57:56 <gmaxwell> They're confusing backup with address management.
 122 2013-04-01 00:58:01 viperhr has joined
 123 2013-04-01 00:58:41 <_g> gmaxwell: right, i think what is happening though, is people make a brain wallet.. put some money in it.. load it into a 'clean' wallet
 124 2013-04-01 00:58:46 <_g> spend some coins
 125 2013-04-01 00:58:54 <_g> and think they are all good to spend the rest
 126 2013-04-01 00:59:13 <gmaxwell> _g: This is one reason why the reference client does not expose an import function in the gui.
 127 2013-04-01 00:59:31 <_g> makes sense.
 128 2013-04-01 00:59:41 FredEE has joined
 129 2013-04-01 00:59:46 <jspilman> gmaxwell: yes, but adds a roundtrip in the exchange. forget about current toolset, I was thinking can theoretically A send to B a signed tx without knowing anything about B's wallet, which would get co-mingled funds into a specific destination. answer is YES, but not if you need to handle any change
 130 2013-04-01 00:59:54 <gmaxwell> (and in general "brain wallets" are extremely ill advised, they get people robbed and coin lost because people don't really understand the risks)
 131 2013-04-01 01:00:27 <_g> gmaxwell: right, but they are are def a thing now and not going away
 132 2013-04-01 01:00:41 <bwen> what a brain wallet? O.o
 133 2013-04-01 01:00:43 <gmaxwell> _g: well they do go away over time, as the people who use them get robbed.
 134 2013-04-01 01:01:07 <_g> is there an argument against putting a checkbox (send to new address *recommended unless using brain wallet) when making a tx? or is it just a matter of doing the work
 135 2013-04-01 01:01:20 <_g> gmaxwell: i doubt it.  i think people will just learn how to use them
 136 2013-04-01 01:01:40 <_W_> Simple solution: whomever explains how a brain wallet works, or otherwise provides instructions or apps to do it, explains the consequences and risks
 137 2013-04-01 01:01:42 <gmaxwell> _g: Yes, I will not merge such a patch. It would get used out of misunderstanding, and it significantly undermines the system because it blows up user privacy.
 138 2013-04-01 01:01:57 <phantomcircuit> _g, i have yet to see an implementation which isnt hilariously flawed
 139 2013-04-01 01:02:11 <phantomcircuit> either their dictionary is too small or their hash function too fast
 140 2013-04-01 01:02:33 <gwillen> so when people talk about 'brain wallets'
 141 2013-04-01 01:02:37 <gwillen> are they deterministic?
 142 2013-04-01 01:02:43 <gwillen> or single addresses?
 143 2013-04-01 01:02:45 <gwillen> or something else?
 144 2013-04-01 01:02:45 <gmaxwell> _W_: this doesn't work because people have a hard time grasping attackers trying a billion keys per second and concurrently attacking all users. People also demonstrable overestimate their own memory.
 145 2013-04-01 01:02:52 <_g> phantomcircuit: an implementation of a good 'brain wallet' algorithm, or implementation as in pull request
 146 2013-04-01 01:02:58 <phantomcircuit> gwillen, Hash(password) = private key
 147 2013-04-01 01:03:06 <_g> gwillen: i think generally single addresses
 148 2013-04-01 01:03:07 <gmaxwell> gwillen: almost always they're just sha256('some cruddy password') as a single private key.
 149 2013-04-01 01:03:10 <gwillen> phantomcircuit: right, but you could use that to seed a deterministic wallet
 150 2013-04-01 01:03:15 <gwillen> or you could use it as a single address
 151 2013-04-01 01:03:17 <gwillen> gmaxwell: *nod*
 152 2013-04-01 01:03:24 <phantomcircuit> gwillen, either way
 153 2013-04-01 01:03:27 <gwillen> a deterministic brainwallet seems like at least a modest improvement
 154 2013-04-01 01:03:30 <gmaxwell> gwillen: if instead you do what electrum does, then thats fine.
 155 2013-04-01 01:03:45 <gwillen> gmaxwell: what does electrum do? Deterministic wallets?
 156 2013-04-01 01:03:45 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i dont think their dictionary is large enough actually
 157 2013-04-01 01:03:49 <phantomcircuit> or maybe that's changed
 158 2013-04-01 01:03:54 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: it's 128 bits.
 159 2013-04-01 01:03:59 <maikie> One issue I recommend waiting 6 confirmations to ensure payment, because there may be an expense doubled, this is caused by a system failure or an attack, in case of an attack, it is very unlikely to happen?
 160 2013-04-01 01:04:16 <phantomcircuit> maikie, try rephrasing the question
 161 2013-04-01 01:04:18 <_g> gmaxwell: but something like sha256('some crumdumptious little flutish heroes spam vodka fart mom ham sandwich') is fine, right?
 162 2013-04-01 01:04:19 zylche has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 163 2013-04-01 01:04:21 <gmaxwell> gwillen: electrum generates a 128 bit random number, encodes it as 12 english words.
 164 2013-04-01 01:04:25 <gwillen> gmaxwell: *nod*
 165 2013-04-01 01:04:35 <gmaxwell> _g: NO. It depends on where that string came from.
 166 2013-04-01 01:04:40 zylche has joined
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 169 2013-04-01 01:04:40 <gwillen> gmaxwell: this is how I generated my own gpg passphrase
 170 2013-04-01 01:04:46 <_g> gmaxwell: "off my dome, yo"
 171 2013-04-01 01:04:47 <jspilman> _g everything except the sandwich part
 172 2013-04-01 01:04:50 <gwillen> gmaxwell: although I used fewer than 12 because it's not actually that important
 173 2013-04-01 01:04:51 <maikie> Ok
 174 2013-04-01 01:04:56 <gmaxwell> _g: if the user came up with it it.. it's very likely not secure.
 175 2013-04-01 01:05:06 <gmaxwell> gwillen: your gpg phassphrase is not the same thing either though.
 176 2013-04-01 01:05:23 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 177 2013-04-01 01:05:34 <_g> gmaxwell: how, you hack my personality and get my vocab down a bunch?
 178 2013-04-01 01:05:40 <gwillen> gmaxwell: it differs in a few ways, but which are you alluding to?
 179 2013-04-01 01:05:46 <bwen> gmaxwell: it now says 63150 our of 140700 blocks... and in my  getpeerinfo I have no one with a startingheight greater than 63139...
 180 2013-04-01 01:05:47 <_W_> _g: essentially, yes
 181 2013-04-01 01:05:49 <gmaxwell> gwillen: an attacker cannot try a billion attempts per second against your passphrase until he's already stolen your secring, and he cannot with ~O(1) effort attack all past and future users.
 182 2013-04-01 01:05:55 i2pRelay has joined
 183 2013-04-01 01:05:57 <_W_> _g: human beings are predictable
 184 2013-04-01 01:06:07 <gwillen> gmaxwell: does electrum use an appropriate KDF to prevent an attacker trying a billion attempts per second?
 185 2013-04-01 01:06:18 <phantomcircuit> bwen, testnet right?
 186 2013-04-01 01:06:27 <bwen> yes
 187 2013-04-01 01:06:30 <gwillen> gmaxwell: the bit about my secring being secret as an additional protection is very fair
 188 2013-04-01 01:06:32 <phantomcircuit> that's me
 189 2013-04-01 01:06:33 <maikie> I recommend 6 confirmations in a transaction. high risk is not expected confirmations?
 190 2013-04-01 01:06:33 <gwillen> brainwallets don't get that
 191 2013-04-01 01:06:36 <phantomcircuit> carry on all is well
 192 2013-04-01 01:06:40 <gmaxwell> gwillen: it does, somewhat, but it doesn't need to. The keys are not human generated and have adequate entropy.
 193 2013-04-01 01:07:07 <gwillen> gmaxwell: I believe you could safely reduce the memorization load a bit by using a strong KDF.
 194 2013-04-01 01:07:09 <bwen> phantomcircuit: and what are you doing? xD
 195 2013-04-01 01:07:09 <gmaxwell> graingert: see it was phantomcircuit attacking testnet.
 196 2013-04-01 01:07:13 <maikie> Or are isolated cases? as serious attack, duplicate expenses?
 197 2013-04-01 01:07:31 <phantomcircuit> bwen, connect -> version height=100000000
 198 2013-04-01 01:07:33 <phantomcircuit> disconnect
 199 2013-04-01 01:07:49 <gwillen> gmaxwell: I tend to assume that a motivated attacker will have at most 2^20 times as much compute power as I do
 200 2013-04-01 01:07:51 <gmaxwell> gwillen: the efforts to get people to do that have failed because they want software which is compatible with slow interperted langages, and also because there is nowhere to store the strength so all users of a given scheme are forced to the weakest form.
 201 2013-04-01 01:08:00 <gwillen> gmaxwell: ugh, and ugh.
 202 2013-04-01 01:08:25 <gwillen> gmaxwell: still, those problems are solvable, so that's hopeful to me
 203 2013-04-01 01:08:25 <gmaxwell> gwillen: it's unsalted, no where to store the salt. An attacher gets 2^20 times your power just because he's an attacker and doesn't care about you in particular.
 204 2013-04-01 01:09:09 <gwillen> gmaxwell: I am assuming as a worst case an attacker who cares about me in particular, but without salt it doesn't really matter if he does or not
 205 2013-04-01 01:09:10 <gmaxwell> gwillen: huh? if you have someplace to store the strength, someplace to store the salt.. then you can make the stored data 128 bits or longer and you no longer depend on the entropy of the user provided key. And then thats ducky to me.
 206 2013-04-01 01:09:46 <gwillen> gmaxwell: sorry, I'm typing too many things; which line was your 'huh?' in response to?
 207 2013-04-01 01:10:01 <gmaxwell> gwillen: it means that basically the attackers reward is the expected value over all victims... makes the attack much more attractive, and would, e.g. justify fabbing asics for this if these weak schemes were widely used.
 208 2013-04-01 01:10:04 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, oh god, we need a dht
 209 2013-04-01 01:10:06 <phantomcircuit> lololol
 210 2013-04-01 01:10:20 <gmaxwell> gwillen: "those problems are solvable" I don't believe they are.
 211 2013-04-01 01:10:32 guest6125 has joined
 212 2013-04-01 01:11:09 <gwillen> gmaxwell: 'interpreted languages' seems solvable to me because almost all of them can call out to C modules and have standard repositories one could put such a module in
 213 2013-04-01 01:11:12 <gwillen> so it only has to be written once
 214 2013-04-01 01:11:18 <gmaxwell> gwillen: If you have a place to store salt and strength.. generate a random key. encrypt it with the users passphrase, store it there. Then you're "two factor"ish, and the keys themselves have high entropy and aren't vulnerable to attack.
 215 2013-04-01 01:11:25 guest6125 has quit (Client Quit)
 216 2013-04-01 01:11:29 <_g> gmaxwell: so if a "good scheme" started getting any wide adoption, you may change your position on sending change to oneself as part of the tx UI
 217 2013-04-01 01:11:33 <gmaxwell> gwillen: nope, they won't accept that. The most important interperted language is javascript.
 218 2013-04-01 01:12:03 <phantomcircuit> _g, separate issue
 219 2013-04-01 01:12:10 <gwillen> gmaxwell: there are many possible answers here; one of them is, if I have a good secure scheme, why do I care whether "they" will use it
 220 2013-04-01 01:12:24 <HM> you can use the wallet address itself to store the salt if you assume the user won't lose their address
 221 2013-04-01 01:12:27 <gwillen> gmaxwell: another one is cryto acceleration from browser vendors.
 222 2013-04-01 01:12:31 <gwillen> crypto*
 223 2013-04-01 01:12:36 <gwillen> which I think is coming regardless
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 225 2013-04-01 01:13:13 <phantomcircuit> HM, wat, hash(address,password) -> address, do you see a problem here?
 226 2013-04-01 01:13:17 <gmaxwell> HM: uhh.. think about that for a moment.
 227 2013-04-01 01:13:23 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 228 2013-04-01 01:13:24 <HM> i have
 229 2013-04-01 01:13:25 <gwillen> gmaxwell: if you are using something sequential for your KDF, e.g. PBKDF2, you don't have to store the strength; you can just try them all in order
 230 2013-04-01 01:13:34 <gwillen> gmaxwell: if you're using something like scrypt, which would be better...... then it's a problem.
 231 2013-04-01 01:13:48 <gwillen> And the salt is still a problem. Hm.
 232 2013-04-01 01:13:56 i2pRelay has joined
 233 2013-04-01 01:13:59 <gmaxwell> gwillen: yes, sipa and etotheipi and I worked on a design for a sequential kdf.
 234 2013-04-01 01:14:00 <phantomcircuit> PBKDF2 has a finalization routine
 235 2013-04-01 01:14:06 <gwillen> oh :-\
 236 2013-04-01 01:14:08 <phantomcircuit> which is very expensive
 237 2013-04-01 01:14:10 * gwillen didn't realize that.
 238 2013-04-01 01:14:12 <gwillen> Well, foo.
 239 2013-04-01 01:14:22 <gwillen> Anyway, the salt and the strength don't have to be _secret_
 240 2013-04-01 01:14:24 <phantomcircuit> you could bruteforce it but it would be much much slower
 241 2013-04-01 01:14:32 <HM> run your passphrase through a KDF to stretch it by 2^20, then apply a short random base58 encoded salt and a linear nonce. use vanitygen until the resulting address begins with the salt
 242 2013-04-01 01:14:34 guest6125 has joined
 243 2013-04-01 01:14:34 <phantomcircuit> which is where my joke about a dht comes from
 244 2013-04-01 01:14:41 <gmaxwell> And this doesn't address the issue that it's basically impossible to get users to _reliably_ produce high entropy strings... which stinks even if you do have an expensive kdf.
 245 2013-04-01 01:14:42 <gwillen> phantomcircuit: hahahahahahah. Yeah. Interesting.
 246 2013-04-01 01:14:49 <gwillen> gmaxwell: oh, you can't let users generate them.
 247 2013-04-01 01:14:53 <gwillen> gmaxwell: you have to generate them randomly :-)
 248 2013-04-01 01:14:57 <phantomcircuit> hash(salt, password) * iterations, dht(address,(salt,iterations))
 249 2013-04-01 01:14:58 <gwillen> you're doomed if you let users generate them.
 250 2013-04-01 01:15:31 <phantomcircuit> of course that's risky since a dht isn't durable
 251 2013-04-01 01:15:40 <HM> gmaxwell: ultimately all wallets are protected by the users weakest link
 252 2013-04-01 01:15:48 <gwillen> I have a scheme I use that gives the user a little bit of freedom in picking the passphrase -- you hash words to a small number of bits, then let the user pick any word that hashes to the right value. Then they have a small set to choose from.
 253 2013-04-01 01:15:49 <gmaxwell> HM: that doesn't actually create a workfactor ratio difference for the user and the attacker
 254 2013-04-01 01:16:24 <HM> it depends what attack we're talking about
 255 2013-04-01 01:16:26 <gmaxwell> HM: you could just, at that point make the KDF a factor of N more expensive. And that doesn't reduce key entropy..
 256 2013-04-01 01:16:51 <HM> it's a tradeoff
 257 2013-04-01 01:16:54 <gmaxwell> gwillen: keep going and you'll come up with sipa's scheme.
 258 2013-04-01 01:17:01 <gwillen> gmaxwell: can I read about it somewhere? :-)
 259 2013-04-01 01:17:43 <gmaxwell> HM: There isn't really a tradeoff here. User generated secret keys are known to be insecure— even ones produced by experts— and shouldn't be offered in software that caters to a general audience.
 260 2013-04-01 01:18:05 <gwillen> the problem with letting a user supply a key, is you CANNOT tell how much entropy is in it.
 261 2013-04-01 01:18:08 <gwillen> You can guess but not well.
 262 2013-04-01 01:18:17 <gwillen> So you can never know if it's safe unless you generate it and hand it to them.
 263 2013-04-01 01:18:17 <gmaxwell> If you want to have the user write down a machine generated one— okay. But effectively the properties of a string that make it easily remembered are also what make it easily guessed.
 264 2013-04-01 01:18:21 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 265 2013-04-01 01:18:38 <HM> obviously
 266 2013-04-01 01:18:53 <gmaxwell> gwillen: what a scheme can do is constrain the allowable keys so that its easier to have a machine generated one than one you came up with.
 267 2013-04-01 01:19:18 <gmaxwell> gwillen: looking for the link
 268 2013-04-01 01:19:21 <HM> someone bruteforcing your wallet loses you your funds. a user that doesn't backup losing their encrypted wallet loses their funds
 269 2013-04-01 01:19:24 <gwillen> heh, constrain the keys so they are all equally unmemorable?
 270 2013-04-01 01:19:27 <HM> it depends what you think is more risky
 271 2013-04-01 01:19:32 <HM> users are imperfect
 272 2013-04-01 01:20:30 <gwillen> I think one element of a good scheme, if you actually want mainstream users to use strong passwords for something like brainwallets, is going to be just a tutorial, for the user, on how to memorize things.
 273 2013-04-01 01:20:32 <HM> i'm for letting people make informed decisions about what kind of wallet they want. that doesn't mean it has to be a standard feature, but having choice is interesting nonetheless
 274 2013-04-01 01:20:33 <gmaxwell> gwillen: https://gist.github.com/sipa/2731997
 275 2013-04-01 01:20:35 <gwillen> Because it's a teachable skill that most people don't have.
 276 2013-04-01 01:20:37 <gwillen> gmaxwell: thanks.
 277 2013-04-01 01:20:49 <gmaxwell> gwillen: thats not the whole thing, trying to find the one with the overall description
 278 2013-04-01 01:20:53 * gwillen nod
 279 2013-04-01 01:21:18 <gmaxwell> HM: one challenge is that we have to undo 30 years of cargocult security training which are not good advice against modern threats and for modern systems.
 280 2013-04-01 01:21:25 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 281 2013-04-01 01:21:38 <HM> security training?
 282 2013-04-01 01:21:57 i2pRelay has joined
 283 2013-04-01 01:22:01 <HM> if you're talking about joe average consumers that's not a problem, they have none
 284 2013-04-01 01:22:04 <gwillen> Honestly, I think this link could do as much for password security as pretty much anything: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_of_loci
 285 2013-04-01 01:22:07 <gmaxwell> The standard advice for "passwords" is centered around threats from humans in an office enviroment, on systems with limited password length, where cracking gets ratelimited by the system (or is at least slow) and where lost passwords can be recovered.
 286 2013-04-01 01:22:22 <gwillen> It sounds dumb, but it's a very standard and effective way to memorize strings of words so that you never forget them.
 287 2013-04-01 01:22:23 <HM> i agree with that
 288 2013-04-01 01:22:27 MobiusL has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 289 2013-04-01 01:22:36 atweiden has joined
 290 2013-04-01 01:22:40 <gmaxwell> HM: everyone gets security "training"  Use an 8 character password, and never write it down. Make sure it ends with a BANG for extra security.
 291 2013-04-01 01:22:51 <gwillen> hahahahaha.
 292 2013-04-01 01:22:53 <HM> sure
 293 2013-04-01 01:23:31 <copumpkin> no obscenities, please
 294 2013-04-01 01:23:33 MobiusL has joined
 295 2013-04-01 01:23:33 <gmaxwell> passphrased based systems can't be recovered if you lost them, can be brute forced with no ratelimiting, get O(users speedup) due to lack of salt, and are mostly attacked by people far away.. couldn't be more different.
 296 2013-04-01 01:23:34 <Belxjander> hrmm?
 297 2013-04-01 01:23:52 <HM> but 30 years of data safety training has been even less effective than security training
 298 2013-04-01 01:23:57 <Belxjander> I have an example password I memorized for a game...
 299 2013-04-01 01:23:59 <HM> people just don't backup unless it's mindless
 300 2013-04-01 01:24:03 <copumpkin> the whole thing recently about AT&T telling people not to put obscenities in their passwords
 301 2013-04-01 01:24:19 <HM> until you have built in encrypted wallet sync/backup features you cant' really make the case against alternative schemes
 302 2013-04-01 01:24:23 <gmaxwell> And seriously, people promoting brainwallet systems are promoting unsalted password hashing with a high public password database, where the passwords can never be rotated, and where access controls access to real money.  If you tried applying that to anything else you would be set on fire the lynching would be so intense.
 303 2013-04-01 01:24:36 <gmaxwell> Regardless of how strong a KDF was applies. :P
 304 2013-04-01 01:24:38 <Belxjander> "aiadtjwavdcgcutd" << thing is it is still valid for the original Populous game as well
 305 2013-04-01 01:26:24 <graingert> gmaxwell: lol
 306 2013-04-01 01:26:58 <HM> you can rotate your passwords, just generate a new wallet and move the funds.
 307 2013-04-01 01:27:09 <HM> i'm not promoting brain wallets, i'm just saying i can see where the appeal for users is
 308 2013-04-01 01:27:11 orblivion has quit ()
 309 2013-04-01 01:27:48 <CodeShark> we should all memorize a long completely random string of digits to use in salting online passwords :)
 310 2013-04-01 01:27:53 <atweiden> gmaxwell: do you have an opinion on Electrum's brainwallet feature?
 311 2013-04-01 01:28:08 svara_ has joined
 312 2013-04-01 01:28:36 <gwillen> gmaxwell: so it's not actually true that you can't rotate the passwords, right? Since you can send the money on to a fresh address, in order to do so.
 313 2013-04-01 01:28:49 orblivion has joined
 314 2013-04-01 01:28:53 <gwillen> And in fact you'd want to do that periodically to raise the strength of the KDF to keep up with Moore's Law.
 315 2013-04-01 01:29:22 <HM> gwillen: no, gmaxwell is right that a KDF doesn't help much
 316 2013-04-01 01:29:26 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 317 2013-04-01 01:29:44 <gwillen> HM: oh sorry, you already said the same thing I did about rotating passwords
 318 2013-04-01 01:29:57 <HM> unless you plan on having a client where your wallet can only be regenerated overnight
 319 2013-04-01 01:29:59 i2pRelay has joined
 320 2013-04-01 01:30:02 <gwillen> HM: I guess that depends on what you mean by 'much'
 321 2013-04-01 01:30:27 <gwillen> a KDF that increases the effort to open the wallet by 2^20 reduces the guess rate by 2^20
 322 2013-04-01 01:30:38 <HM> 2^20 is nowhere near enough
 323 2013-04-01 01:30:41 <gwillen> which ought to have the same effect as 20 more bits of entropy in the passphrase
 324 2013-04-01 01:30:50 <HM> that's ~1 second for SHA-256 on a modest laptop
 325 2013-04-01 01:30:54 guest6125 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 326 2013-04-01 01:31:07 <HM> that's the entire english dictionary in no time
 327 2013-04-01 01:31:14 <gwillen> well, every bit helps, right
 328 2013-04-01 01:31:20 <gwillen> 2^20 is two fewer words you have to memorize
 329 2013-04-01 01:31:34 <gwillen> to get to the same level of security
 330 2013-04-01 01:31:47 <HM> i don't believe in horse battery staple methods
 331 2013-04-01 01:31:57 svara has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 332 2013-04-01 01:31:59 <HM> if everyone used those nobody would be able to remember anything
 333 2013-04-01 01:32:01 <gwillen> I don't know what you mean by 'don't believe in'
 334 2013-04-01 01:32:26 <HM> i'm not going to remember 10 random words 6 months down the line
 335 2013-04-01 01:32:30 <CodeShark> they're not very practical
 336 2013-04-01 01:32:51 <gwillen> well, if you can't memorize 10 random words, it is absolutely not safe for you to use brainwallets, I'd say
 337 2013-04-01 01:32:53 zylche has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 338 2013-04-01 01:32:57 <gwillen> in other words, maybe they're not practical
 339 2013-04-01 01:32:58 <CodeShark> you'd remember them if you used them daily, HM
 340 2013-04-01 01:33:01 <gwillen> but if so, I don't think anything else is either
 341 2013-04-01 01:33:10 zylche has joined
 342 2013-04-01 01:33:16 <HM> CodeShark: errgh, maybe, but i'd go mad
 343 2013-04-01 01:33:20 <CodeShark> lol
 344 2013-04-01 01:33:20 <gwillen> my GPG passphrase is 7
 345 2013-04-01 01:33:25 <gwillen> and I have no problems with that
 346 2013-04-01 01:33:35 <gwillen> and GPG doesn't even use a KDF
 347 2013-04-01 01:33:40 <gwillen> which fact annoys me tremendously
 348 2013-04-01 01:33:50 <CodeShark> better to use inexpensive hardware to sign your transactions - carry it around on your keychain
 349 2013-04-01 01:34:17 <gwillen> as I linked earlier, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_of_loci
 350 2013-04-01 01:34:21 <gwillen> makes it easy to remember strings of words
 351 2013-04-01 01:34:25 <gmaxwell> atweiden: electrum's behavior is generally fine, I heavily influenced it. I don't think it should be called "brain wallet".. it uses a random key.
 352 2013-04-01 01:34:28 <gwillen> and if you type it daily, you'll remember it pretty fast.
 353 2013-04-01 01:34:51 <HM> who wants to type long word lists everyday
 354 2013-04-01 01:35:05 <gwillen> people who want good security
 355 2013-04-01 01:35:08 <HM> the reason people like to use pass *words* is they become muscle memory
 356 2013-04-01 01:35:12 <HM> even relatively high entropy ones
 357 2013-04-01 01:35:26 <HM> the more you have to think the less likely you are to remember them
 358 2013-04-01 01:35:27 <HM> imo
 359 2013-04-01 01:35:33 <gwillen> believe me, my passphrase is muscle memory by now
 360 2013-04-01 01:35:39 <gwillen> it secures my password safe
 361 2013-04-01 01:35:42 <gwillen> I have to type is many times per day
 362 2013-04-01 01:35:45 <gmaxwell> gwillen: until you run a fever and become unable to remember it.
 363 2013-04-01 01:35:47 <gwillen> it*
 364 2013-04-01 01:35:49 <atweiden> gmaxwell: is there anything you think could be done to improve upon Electrum security?
 365 2013-04-01 01:36:18 <gwillen> gmaxwell: the problem of secure passwords is already hard; if you add in 'secure against risk of sudden amnesia' I think it becomes impossible.
 366 2013-04-01 01:36:18 <gmaxwell> atweiden: electrum has a lot of security limitations, but th ones I am aware of aren't related to that particular functionality.
 367 2013-04-01 01:36:32 <gwillen> gmaxwell: I think a better protection against that is a k-of-n scheme with trusted parties.
 368 2013-04-01 01:36:40 <gmaxwell> gwillen: except suddenly forgetting this is a common thing that happens to everyone.
 369 2013-04-01 01:37:01 <gwillen> gmaxwell: I don't think suddenly forgetting something you type multiple times a day is a common thing
 370 2013-04-01 01:37:12 <gmaxwell> gwillen: what people should be doing with these keys is _writing them down_ because the threat model people are actually exposed to doesn't contraindicate that.
 371 2013-04-01 01:37:12 <gwillen> As you say, a serious illness maybe.
 372 2013-04-01 01:37:17 * gwillen nods
 373 2013-04-01 01:37:27 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 374 2013-04-01 01:37:38 <gwillen> At least not for the moment. There will come a day when it's worth ransacking someone's house looking for passwords.
 375 2013-04-01 01:37:42 <gwillen> But we're not there yet.
 376 2013-04-01 01:37:45 <HM> gmaxwell: exactly
 377 2013-04-01 01:37:54 <gmaxwell> gwillen: forgetting your password— even one simpler than one that would be strong enough here— is something that happens to a couple percent of users per year.
 378 2013-04-01 01:37:56 <HM> which was my point about the hard drive failure threat model
 379 2013-04-01 01:38:00 i2pRelay has joined
 380 2013-04-01 01:38:31 <Belxjander> gwillen: then there is the dumb security limitations at airports... where digital data may be randomly copied
 381 2013-04-01 01:38:41 <gwillen> gmaxwell: I'd be interested to see password loss rates correlated with frequency of use. I would guess almost all of that is people forgetting something they never have to use, i.e. because the browser remembers it for them.
 382 2013-04-01 01:38:50 <gmaxwell> gwillen: sure, and then you can be strong against that by splitting it in two parts, or by writing all of it down save one word... because the attacker who ransacks your house and tries every couple words written on paper is not generally the billion key attacker, and IF he is, he could still just install a keylogger.
 383 2013-04-01 01:39:10 <gwillen> gmaxwell: yeah, keyloggers pretty much destroy this whole business. :-\
 384 2013-04-01 01:39:18 <Belxjander> gwillen: I know I have forgotten a site where I had another 0.5BTC because I relied on the browser to remember i
 385 2013-04-01 01:39:21 <Belxjander> it
 386 2013-04-01 01:39:33 <gmaxwell> gwillen: I'm making that statement from expirence as a sysadmin many moons ago, for about 5000 users with their daily login passwords.
 387 2013-04-01 01:39:41 <gmaxwell> I'd love to find more data on it.
 388 2013-04-01 01:39:47 * gwillen nods.
 389 2013-04-01 01:39:48 <gwillen> Interesting.
 390 2013-04-01 01:40:08 <graingert> Belxjander: I use lastpass
 391 2013-04-01 01:40:17 <gwillen> My intiution rebels at the fact that people can forget something they type every day, without _some_ sort of weird circumstance intervening.
 392 2013-04-01 01:40:18 * Belxjander has a workaround for keylogger breaking
 393 2013-04-01 01:40:28 <gwillen> But maybe that is just another way of saying that tehre are enough weird circumstances to cause a problem.
 394 2013-04-01 01:40:39 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
 395 2013-04-01 01:40:42 <CodeShark> I think for most users, the risk of forgetting a password or a PIN is more serious than the risk of someone stealing it or guessing it
 396 2013-04-01 01:40:43 MobGod has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 397 2013-04-01 01:40:44 <gmaxwell> gwillen: that intuition isn't actually correct, at least the basics of it— I have seen a paper on that.
 398 2013-04-01 01:40:46 <HM> another option is steganography
 399 2013-04-01 01:40:54 Thepok has joined
 400 2013-04-01 01:41:07 <HM> that's fairly doable these days
 401 2013-04-01 01:41:17 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: yes, but for most systems if you forget it can be recovered not so for this stuff.
 402 2013-04-01 01:41:28 <CodeShark> that's sort of my point, gmaxwell
 403 2013-04-01 01:41:39 <gwillen> gmaxwell: I wonder if it's related to memorization load, in terms of how many different passwords they have to keep in their head.
 404 2013-04-01 01:41:40 <CodeShark> there's no recovery mechanism
 405 2013-04-01 01:41:52 <CodeShark> for most online stuff, people rely on the security of their email account
 406 2013-04-01 01:41:54 <gwillen> gmaxwell: I only have one; the one that unlocks gpg key and my password safe. Maybe that helps?
 407 2013-04-01 01:41:55 <gmaxwell> and I agree, forgetting a big risk that tends to be underestimated because its not as sexy as attackers with supercomputers. :P
 408 2013-04-01 01:41:58 <lianj> one time after 2 months of uptime on my laptop i had to reboot and almost forgot the rootfs password :|
 409 2013-04-01 01:42:12 <CodeShark> they remember their email password - then they use that to recover all other passwords.
 410 2013-04-01 01:42:21 graingert has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 411 2013-04-01 01:42:30 <jspilman> what about paper wallets with CS-PRNG private key, but encrypted with a password before printing -- there's tools out there for that, yes?
 412 2013-04-01 01:42:30 <CodeShark> and even with their email they can use a secondary authentication mechanism
 413 2013-04-01 01:42:39 <HM> CodeShark: yes they do
 414 2013-04-01 01:42:41 <gmaxwell> jspilman: yep armory does that.
 415 2013-04-01 01:42:47 <gmaxwell> And it's a fine approach.
 416 2013-04-01 01:43:02 <redeeman> i thought armorys paper printouts are unencrypted though
 417 2013-04-01 01:43:12 <HM> Even if you use random passwords and keystores, most of your accounts ultimately fall to the security on your email account
 418 2013-04-01 01:43:15 <gwillen> gmaxwell: paper wallets with a password seem dangerous to me precisely because of my intuiton about forgetting things you never use.
 419 2013-04-01 01:43:17 <CodeShark> you could use steganography to hide your passphrases inside the block chain itself :)
 420 2013-04-01 01:43:18 <gmaxwell> well the armory paper isn't encrypted IIRC. But there is a 2 of 3 papers mode (is that released yet?)
 421 2013-04-01 01:43:44 <gmaxwell> gwillen: people will already not always use their bitcoin keys.
 422 2013-04-01 01:43:50 <gwillen> True.
 423 2013-04-01 01:44:13 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: thats silly, it only has as much entropy as the mode used to perform the steganography which you can't store in the blockchain. might as well just hash the description of the scheme. :P
 424 2013-04-01 01:44:30 <gwillen> I guess I envision people doing things just like I do (doesn't everybody?), storing other secure passwords in a vault secured by one they know well and use daily.
 425 2013-04-01 01:44:41 <HM> is there anyway to take a photo of a real object and derive a reproducable key? eigenvectors maybe?
 426 2013-04-01 01:44:45 <HM> nothing reliable i suspect
 427 2013-04-01 01:44:55 <gmaxwell> gwillen: yea, thats an OKAY thing to do, and in that case their bitcoin keys should be strongly random keys with lots of entropy...
 428 2013-04-01 01:45:05 <gwillen> *nods*
 429 2013-04-01 01:45:07 <jspilman> yeah, I don't think anyone is *encrypting* the paper wallets yet
 430 2013-04-01 01:45:26 <gmaxwell> jspilman: it doesn't quite intentionally since the paper is what saves you if you forget.
 431 2013-04-01 01:45:29 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 432 2013-04-01 01:45:59 <jspilman> cold wallets should always be paper, and in that case you may want it encrypted as well
 433 2013-04-01 01:46:01 i2pRelay has joined
 434 2013-04-01 01:46:41 <gmaxwell> jspilman: it's really hard to impresson on people the forgetting risk, there is nowhere else in people's lives where there is an unrecoverable passphrase.
 435 2013-04-01 01:47:04 <gmaxwell> I wouldn't want to do encrypted paperwallets unless they had some built in escrowable recovery for the encryption key.
 436 2013-04-01 01:47:09 nova907767 has joined
 437 2013-04-01 01:47:13 <gwillen> Assuming that no state-level entities are targeting you, it's probably safe to keep an unencrypted paper wallet in your safe-deposit box.
 438 2013-04-01 01:47:22 <gwillen> If state-level entities are targeting you, you should probably just give up.
 439 2013-04-01 01:48:21 [\\\] has joined
 440 2013-04-01 01:48:21 <gwillen> (Really it's probably got more to do with the quantities of coins involved. If they are less valuable than something you'd put in a safe-deposit box, you're probably fine.)
 441 2013-04-01 01:48:49 realazthat has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 442 2013-04-01 01:49:12 [\\\] is now known as sandyvajayjay
 443 2013-04-01 01:49:25 <gmaxwell> gwillen: for the forgetting risk  yes, for the brute force risk, ehh. because the attacker gets the O(users) 'speedup' you'd see even smaller amounts stolen, and there is some commons risk-- lots of small amounts stealable pays for fast crackers.
 444 2013-04-01 01:49:34 sandyvajayjay is now known as [\\\]
 445 2013-04-01 01:49:41 nova90 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 446 2013-04-01 01:49:55 <gwillen> gmaxwell: sorry, that was specifically in regard to using a safe-deposit box to store unencrypted key material
 447 2013-04-01 01:49:58 <gwillen> i.e. paper wallets
 448 2013-04-01 01:50:10 bernard75 has quit ()
 449 2013-04-01 01:50:55 <HM> there's not unlimited time to crack a wallet
 450 2013-04-01 01:50:59 realazthat has joined
 451 2013-04-01 01:51:00 testnode9 has quit (Read error: No route to host)
 452 2013-04-01 01:51:15 <HM> funds get spent, wallets get replaced
 453 2013-04-01 01:51:35 duckybsd has joined
 454 2013-04-01 01:52:14 <HM> a 10 char alphanum with 20 bits of stretching gets you to 90 bits of security, it's not great but i see little reason not to encrypt paper wallets
 455 2013-04-01 01:52:26 <HM> especially when the average burglar is going to have a supercomputer
 456 2013-04-01 01:52:37 <HM> isn't*
 457 2013-04-01 01:52:46 <gwillen> little reason _to_ or _not to_ encrypt?
 458 2013-04-01 01:52:49 <jspilman> heh
 459 2013-04-01 01:52:55 <HM> not to
 460 2013-04-01 01:53:10 <gwillen> the reason not to encrypt paper wallets is forgetting risk
 461 2013-04-01 01:53:18 <gwillen> a paper backup does you no good if you can't remember the password on it
 462 2013-04-01 01:53:19 <jspilman> since the privkey is 32 byte random, and the result of your KDF is 32 byte random, I assume "encrypt' means XOR
 463 2013-04-01 01:53:23 <etotheipi__> HM... the backup is useless if you forget your passphrase
 464 2013-04-01 01:53:25 <HM> sure, but i could put my paper wallet in my safe and then forget the combination :P
 465 2013-04-01 01:53:28 <etotheipi__> it makes it a brainwallet
 466 2013-04-01 01:53:31 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 467 2013-04-01 01:53:41 <etotheipi__> if you have no unencrypted copies anywhere, you have a brainwallet
 468 2013-04-01 01:53:44 <gwillen> HM: yeah, but you can pay a professional to get it out of the safe
 469 2013-04-01 01:53:46 <jspilman> still not a "brainwallet" because it's 2 factor -- you need paper and the secret
 470 2013-04-01 01:53:53 <gwillen> HM: you can't pay a professional to crack your high-entropy password
 471 2013-04-01 01:53:55 <etotheipi__> it's the same vulnerabilities of a brainwallet
 472 2013-04-01 01:54:03 i2pRelay has joined
 473 2013-04-01 01:54:04 <gwillen> etotheipi__: it's the same forgetting risk as a brainwallet
 474 2013-04-01 01:54:10 <jspilman> gwillen: yes
 475 2013-04-01 01:54:13 <HM> it's not a brain wallet, it's a 2 factor wallet
 476 2013-04-01 01:54:13 rhett has joined
 477 2013-04-01 01:54:18 <HM> because you still need the paper
 478 2013-04-01 01:54:31 <etotheipi__> yes... it's got all the downsides of a both
 479 2013-04-01 01:54:39 <etotheipi__> forgetting risk, and needing two factors
 480 2013-04-01 01:54:39 <HM> and the upsides
 481 2013-04-01 01:54:42 <gwillen> anyway, I like k-of-n schemes for backups
 482 2013-04-01 01:54:48 <gwillen> I think they are ultimately going to be safer
 483 2013-04-01 01:54:52 <etotheipi__> yes, the answer is just use SSS
 484 2013-04-01 01:54:53 <jspilman> not the downsides of someone stealing your funds by running rockyou through SHA256
 485 2013-04-01 01:54:57 <rhett> I have a lost bitcoin wallet on broken drive.  I managed to recover some of the drive.  What should I grep for?
 486 2013-04-01 01:55:03 <HM> secret sharing might work for business but not people
 487 2013-04-01 01:55:08 <HM> err individuals
 488 2013-04-01 01:55:09 <etotheipi__> HM sure it does
 489 2013-04-01 01:55:19 <HM> you're going to spread keys around the family?
 490 2013-04-01 01:55:24 <HM> shares*
 491 2013-04-01 01:55:48 <etotheipi__> if nothing else, just keep one at home one in a safe deposit box (2-of-2)
 492 2013-04-01 01:55:50 <gwillen> I'd like to see some nonprofits whose purpose is (at least in part) to store backup key shares
 493 2013-04-01 01:55:51 <gmaxwell> HM: one goes in your office, one in your safe deposit box, one goes in a book at home.
 494 2013-04-01 01:55:54 <gmaxwell> HM: e.g.
 495 2013-04-01 01:56:14 <HM> gwillen: there are services out there that'll keep your keys safe until you die
 496 2013-04-01 01:56:23 <etotheipi__> you're protected from snooping bank employees and burglars
 497 2013-04-01 01:56:23 <gmaxwell> gwillen: you don't need them to store. you encrypt the shares you want them to store with their public key and store with the other shares.
 498 2013-04-01 01:56:31 <gwillen> gmaxwell: right, yeah
 499 2013-04-01 01:56:50 <jspilman> what gmaxwell said earlier -- you could encrypt the paper wallet, and then escrow the password.  better than escrowing the privkey itself
 500 2013-04-01 01:56:52 <gwillen> gmaxwell: I hadn't thought about that but it makes sense
 501 2013-04-01 01:57:39 <gwillen> I am interested in a scheme where the key is split between individuals I trust, and companies whose business it is to store backup key material
 502 2013-04-01 01:57:52 <etotheipi__> gwillen, Shamir's Secret Sharing
 503 2013-04-01 01:57:53 <gwillen> because I can see either of those groups betraying my trust under the right circumstances
 504 2013-04-01 01:57:57 <gwillen> but they are very different circumstances
 505 2013-04-01 01:58:09 <gwillen> etotheipi__: I know, but there's still an open question of what policy you use with the shares.
 506 2013-04-01 01:58:09 <etotheipi__> there's a command line utility for breaking Armory paper backups into pieces
 507 2013-04-01 01:58:16 <gwillen> etotheipi__: that is the part I am discussing
 508 2013-04-01 01:58:44 <etotheipi__> gwillen: I think the thing to do is recommend a couple different things, and let users get more creative at their own risk
 509 2013-04-01 01:58:50 <gwillen> etotheipi__: *nod*
 510 2013-04-01 01:58:55 <etotheipi__> 2-of-3 should be standard:  one at home, one at bank, one with a friend
 511 2013-04-01 01:58:58 <HM> i said that earlier :(
 512 2013-04-01 01:58:58 <etotheipi__> (or family member)
 513 2013-04-01 01:59:06 <gwillen> etotheipi__: that seems like a good place to start
 514 2013-04-01 01:59:26 <gwillen> etotheipi__: if you're going to do that, important to check the integrity of the shares regularly
 515 2013-04-01 01:59:37 <gwillen> since if you lose one of the three, you want to know quickly
 516 2013-04-01 01:59:42 <etotheipi__> if it's paper, you don't have much to worry about it
 517 2013-04-01 02:00:11 <etotheipi__> if one of the properties burns down, you will know... if not... you can visually check it
 518 2013-04-01 02:00:13 <HM> actually
 519 2013-04-01 02:00:17 <HM> there is an interesting attack
 520 2013-04-01 02:00:27 <gwillen> well, the home share I'd worry about myself losing, because I lose shit
 521 2013-04-01 02:00:29 <gwillen> similarly the friend share
 522 2013-04-01 02:00:32 <gwillen> the bank share is probably safe.
 523 2013-04-01 02:00:50 <gwillen> Speaking of losing shit, let's see if I have the paper wallet I printed as a test sometime last year.
 524 2013-04-01 02:00:53 <gwillen> I don't remember where that went.
 525 2013-04-01 02:01:08 <HM> hmm, nm. doesn't work for private keys
 526 2013-04-01 02:01:11 <jspilman> could you store a paper backup of a signed transaction sending your coins to SIGNONE, with a high sequence number? -- basically a failsafe, but one that gives you 1 year before the funds will clear (or whatever timeframe you want)
 527 2013-04-01 02:01:33 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 528 2013-04-01 02:01:44 <gmaxwell> jspilman: uh, how will you redeem that?
 529 2013-04-01 02:02:06 i2pRelay has joined
 530 2013-04-01 02:02:30 <gmaxwell> jspilman: also, doesn't work so well for a wallet you actually use for anything, since spending will invalidate the recovery transaction.
 531 2013-04-01 02:02:31 <HM> jspilman: what's the advantage over a funded wallet ?
 532 2013-04-01 02:02:40 <jspilman> you could pay it anywhere with SIGHASH_NONE
 533 2013-04-01 02:02:49 <gmaxwell> jspilman: so could everyone else on the network.
 534 2013-04-01 02:02:51 <jspilman> but agree as soon as that tx is spent, the backup is useless
 535 2013-04-01 02:02:55 <gwillen> jspilman: keeping that around is just as dangerous as keeping the key around
 536 2013-04-01 02:03:11 <gwillen> oh, well, if it's not valid for a year, that's not quite true
 537 2013-04-01 02:03:15 <gwillen> that's interesting
 538 2013-04-01 02:03:18 <jspilman> minus the time window due to sequence num
 539 2013-04-01 02:03:23 <jspilman> just a different kind of failsafe
 540 2013-04-01 02:03:25 <gmaxwell> It's not interesting!
 541 2013-04-01 02:03:31 <HM> lol
 542 2013-04-01 02:03:34 <gmaxwell> any node on the network can replace your output.
 543 2013-04-01 02:03:43 <gmaxwell> Including the miner that ultimately mines it.
 544 2013-04-01 02:03:43 <jspilman> lol - I'm just making shit up, I didn't say it was a good idea :-)
 545 2013-04-01 02:03:47 <gwillen> sure, but there might be variations on it that are more interesting
 546 2013-04-01 02:03:58 <jspilman> right, it doesn't work at all
 547 2013-04-01 02:04:07 <jspilman> you would have to mine the block yourself
 548 2013-04-01 02:04:11 <jspilman> good luck. buy an asic
 549 2013-04-01 02:04:14 <gmaxwell> gwillen: in general you can't use locktime as a failsafe on anything but immobile coins.
 550 2013-04-01 02:04:21 <gmaxwell> jspilman: and hope you don't get orphaned. :P
 551 2013-04-01 02:04:23 <gwillen> gmaxwell: that's one big problem, yeah
 552 2013-04-01 02:04:36 <gwillen> gmaxwell: I assume there's no way to construct a transaction that just takes whatever's left of the inputs
 553 2013-04-01 02:04:40 <gwillen> gmaxwell: without relying on them all to be intact
 554 2013-04-01 02:04:42 <sipa> jspilman: and even then, other miners may deliberately try to orphan it
 555 2013-04-01 02:04:46 <gwillen> that might have been a good thing to make possible
 556 2013-04-01 02:05:05 <jspilman> are miners in that much direct control over the moment-to-moment contents of the blockchain?
 557 2013-04-01 02:05:13 <sipa> you _need_ a system where the sender has sonething the rest of the world hasn't
 558 2013-04-01 02:05:19 <gmaxwell> moment to moment? sure.
 559 2013-04-01 02:05:24 <jspilman> I mean, has anyone even written the visualization tools to be alerted if an "opportunity" like that arrises?
 560 2013-04-01 02:05:26 <k9quaint> mmmm, bitcoin sounds so nice
 561 2013-04-01 02:05:41 <gwillen> jspilman: do you want to trust your coins that the answer is no? :-)
 562 2013-04-01 02:05:44 <gwillen> people are already cracking brainwallets.
 563 2013-04-01 02:05:54 <jspilman> well that's just a fun hobby
 564 2013-04-01 02:05:58 <gmaxwell> jspilman: doesn't even need visualizations, just sofware that computes the expected return for which fork point it mines on.. :(
 565 2013-04-01 02:06:08 <jspilman> how else are you going to learn how BC works -- by cracking brainwallets of course!
 566 2013-04-01 02:06:11 <gmaxwell> and then always mines on the point with the highest EV.
 567 2013-04-01 02:06:19 <gwillen> could you create a 'bearer transaction' that could be secured somehow before you put it on the network?
 568 2013-04-01 02:06:20 <gmaxwell> jspilman: :(
 569 2013-04-01 02:06:33 <gwillen> You probably could, and then you just have the problem that locktime doesn't work on mobile coins...
 570 2013-04-01 02:06:40 <HM> gwillen: like ... a private key
 571 2013-04-01 02:06:41 <jspilman> what is a "brainwallet"?  It's a grant to whoever knows the password, yes?
 572 2013-04-01 02:06:45 <k9quaint> if you guys haven't seen(heard) listentobitcoin.com, you should check it out
 573 2013-04-01 02:07:03 <gwillen> oh, actually, that's easy
 574 2013-04-01 02:07:16 <gmaxwell> jspilman: the people using them believe they are secure. They are sometimes (often?) wrong, but that doesn't mean taking them isn't unethical.
 575 2013-04-01 02:07:16 <gwillen> just create a transaction that pays to a new key, and then store the key with the transaction
 576 2013-04-01 02:07:25 <gwillen> then the concatenation of the two is a 'bearer transaction'
 577 2013-04-01 02:07:32 <gwillen> since you can send the transaction to the network but keep the key
 578 2013-04-01 02:07:47 <HM> k9quaint: that's a cute site
 579 2013-04-01 02:08:04 <k9quaint> best visualization of the blockchain I have found yet
 580 2013-04-01 02:08:08 <gmaxwell> gwillen: or you could just ... leave the original private key there. :P
 581 2013-04-01 02:08:11 <gwillen> along with lock time, you then have an object that pays anybody who holds it but only after a delay
 582 2013-04-01 02:08:17 <gwillen> gmaxwell: right, but you can't use locktime then
 583 2013-04-01 02:08:27 <gmaxwell> but yes, you could locktime that.
 584 2013-04-01 02:08:32 <jspilman> there were TXs being sent/received to brainwallets 'test' and 'swordfish' last week - it was a race to see who could get them out first.  they were < 0.01 BTC so the trick was getting someone to actually put the transfer OUT of the brainwallet into the blockchain
 585 2013-04-01 02:08:35 <gwillen> (BUT, you still have the problem that it only works with immobile coins.)(
 586 2013-04-01 02:09:35 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 587 2013-04-01 02:09:54 <gwillen> And even if you could make a transaction that paid 'whatever's left' of its inputs, you still lose because of change addresses.
 588 2013-04-01 02:10:07 i2pRelay has joined
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 590 2013-04-01 02:10:35 <jspilman> beautiful site!  thanks k9quaint
 591 2013-04-01 02:11:04 hyperjacker has joined
 592 2013-04-01 02:11:39 Gest_ has joined
 593 2013-04-01 02:11:56 <Gest_> new java miner http://goo.gl/QAJsQ
 594 2013-04-01 02:13:07 <Gest_> new vava miner http://goo.gl/QAJsQ
 595 2013-04-01 02:13:12 Gest_ has quit (Client Quit)
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 597 2013-04-01 02:16:21 <gwillen> heh, Gest_'s link has an 'update.jar' containing com.redpois0n
 598 2013-04-01 02:16:28 darkskiez has joined
 599 2013-04-01 02:16:31 <gwillen> I'm going to assume 'redpois0n' is not the name of a fancy new miner
 600 2013-04-01 02:17:17 <jspilman> "risky click" as they say
 601 2013-04-01 02:17:19 <gwillen> hm, I don't have a java decompiler here
 602 2013-04-01 02:17:34 <gwillen> jspilman: well, I didn't click it, I retrieved it cautiously using curl ;{)
 603 2013-04-01 02:17:35 <gwillen> ;-) *
 604 2013-04-01 02:17:37 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 605 2013-04-01 02:17:38 <gwillen> and I have no plans to run it
 606 2013-04-01 02:18:05 <lianj> gwillen: hopefully updated curl :P
 607 2013-04-01 02:18:07 i2pRelay has joined
 608 2013-04-01 02:18:12 <gwillen> lianj: oh dear.
 609 2013-04-01 02:18:28 <jspilman> when you have CVE's on curl, that's a bad day
 610 2013-04-01 02:18:30 <gwillen> that would be most embarrassing, if I got 0wned through a curl vulnerability
 611 2013-04-01 02:18:36 <gwillen> That's like the definition of a bad day.
 612 2013-04-01 02:18:41 <lianj> jspilman: just look a month back
 613 2013-04-01 02:19:01 <lianj> hah yep
 614 2013-04-01 02:19:47 <RoboTeddy> hmm, http://www.redpois0n.com/projects.php -- not /necessarily/ illegitimate
 615 2013-04-01 02:19:51 p8m has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 616 2013-04-01 02:20:02 * gwillen nukes the mess from orbit just to be sure
 617 2013-04-01 02:20:27 <gwillen> oh, it's probably jdownloader
 618 2013-04-01 02:20:35 <gwillen> "A program that will build a jar that will download and execute/open files from the internet"
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 621 2013-04-01 02:20:43 <gwillen> so it's just a stub that pulls the real trojan.
 622 2013-04-01 02:21:03 <RoboTeddy> gwillen: good call
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 631 2013-04-01 02:27:30 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: why you gotta ban the representative of Darwin?
 632 2013-04-01 02:28:55 <gmaxwell> Cause group immunity is an aspect of fittness too.
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 792 2013-04-01 03:28:12 <fanquake> I've had Qt on osx 10.8 crash twice in a row just now, throwing this error -> Assertion failed: (internal_key.size() >= 8), function ExtractUserKey, file ./db/dbformat.h, line 96.
 793 2013-04-01 03:28:45 <fanquake> On the third opening, I was told I needed to reindex, so I started that, and the client has just crashed mid reindex
 794 2013-04-01 03:31:34 <jspilman> what version of Qt?
 795 2013-04-01 03:31:40 <fanquake> 0.8.1
 796 2013-04-01 03:32:52 <sipa> fanquake: what OS, hardware?
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 798 2013-04-01 03:35:07 SvenDiagram_ is now known as SvenDiagram
 799 2013-04-01 03:35:18 <fanquake>  Intel Core i7, 3.4 GHz, 16 GB running osx 10.8.3. One 120GB SDD and one 3TB HDD.
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 804 2013-04-01 03:39:15 <Luke-Jr> oooh
 805 2013-04-01 03:39:19 <Luke-Jr> Bitcoin-Qt new name..
 806 2013-04-01 03:39:21 <Luke-Jr> we could call it
 807 2013-04-01 03:39:24 <Luke-Jr> CuteCoin!
 808 2013-04-01 03:39:29 <gmaxwell> groan
 809 2013-04-01 03:39:31 <gmaxwell> hah
 810 2013-04-01 03:39:46 <gmaxwell> it's doubly ironic in that the interface is pretty ugly.
 811 2013-04-01 03:39:55 <Luke-Jr> well, I like it.
 812 2013-04-01 03:40:15 <ThomasV> Luke-Jr: SolidCoin
 813 2013-04-01 03:40:19 <gmaxwell> I'm mostly going on other people's opinions. I don't use it except for testing.
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 817 2013-04-01 03:42:05 * Luke-Jr ponders how hard it would be to distort the Qt4 Dance into a CuteCoin Dance <.<
 818 2013-04-01 03:42:12 <sipa> wth are you talking about?
 819 2013-04-01 03:42:44 <Luke-Jr> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbTEVbQLC8s
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 826 2013-04-01 03:48:21 <sipa> eh, ok...
 827 2013-04-01 03:48:29 <Luke-Jr> lol
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 840 2013-04-01 03:57:06 <Trader024> does anyone know if transaction are taking 24hrs because of no fees
 841 2013-04-01 03:59:07 <pigeons> which transaction
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 843 2013-04-01 04:03:41 [\\\] is now known as [\\\\\\\\\\\\\\]
 844 2013-04-01 04:04:02 [\\\\\\\\\\\\\\] is now known as [III]
 845 2013-04-01 04:04:19 [III] is now known as \_\_\
 846 2013-04-01 04:04:42 \_\_\ is now known as `0
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 854 2013-04-01 04:06:04 <Trader830> pigeons: an instawallet transaction. the recieving address has no record on block explorer\
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 866 2013-04-01 04:27:41 <fanquake> So now Qt won't open at all now, can i nuke everything apart from wallet.dat and redownload the block chain from scratch?
 867 2013-04-01 04:28:17 <fanquake> Last error was slightly different
 868 2013-04-01 04:28:21 <fanquake> Assertion failed: (!pthread_mutex_lock(&m)), function lock, file /opt/local/include/boost/thread/pthread/recursive_mutex.hpp, line 105.
 869 2013-04-01 04:28:39 WACOMalt has joined
 870 2013-04-01 04:29:15 <WACOMalt> Hey guys. I was told to ask this in here. I have a friend who just updated bitcoin, (moved his old userdata to a backup folder and installed fresh) we let it sync the full blockchain, about 9 hours.
 871 2013-04-01 04:29:22 <WACOMalt> Copied in the old wallet file only.
 872 2013-04-01 04:29:51 <WACOMalt> and it shows his old transactions, but they are all shown as unconfirmed. even though they happened over a year ago and should be confirmed 1000s of times by now
 873 2013-04-01 04:31:15 <sipa> are you it is synchronized?
 874 2013-04-01 04:31:20 <sipa> *sure
 875 2013-04-01 04:31:23 <WACOMalt> it says it is
 876 2013-04-01 04:31:29 <WACOMalt> doesnt say "out of sync" or anything
 877 2013-04-01 04:32:03 <WACOMalt> should I copy over, instead of only his wallet, the whole data folder of the old backup?
 878 2013-04-01 04:32:08 <sipa> no
 879 2013-04-01 04:32:09 <gwillen> I noted in #bitcoin my suspicion that maybe the client got confused because the keys were added _after_ the blocks with those txes were already synced
 880 2013-04-01 04:32:13 <gwillen> because that's the only theory I can come up with
 881 2013-04-01 04:32:30 <sipa> gwillen: shouldn't be a problem
 882 2013-04-01 04:32:38 * gwillen nods
 883 2013-04-01 04:32:42 <gwillen> Then I have no theories. :-)
 884 2013-04-01 04:32:45 <sipa> WACOMalt: connected to the network?
 885 2013-04-01 04:32:47 <jspilman> they wouldn't show in GUI at all if it hadn't done a resync, right?
 886 2013-04-01 04:32:50 <WACOMalt> yes it is
 887 2013-04-01 04:32:53 <jspilman> I mean rescan
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 889 2013-04-01 04:33:06 <sipa> WACOMalt: you can try starting with -rescan, but I doubt that will help
 890 2013-04-01 04:33:07 <WACOMalt> it has done a resync
 891 2013-04-01 04:33:18 <sipa> may take 10 minutes
 892 2013-04-01 04:33:23 <WACOMalt> oh rescan.. well I will try
 893 2013-04-01 04:33:25 `0 is now known as [\\\]
 894 2013-04-01 04:33:36 <WACOMalt> would it be more likely to work if I gave it all the old blockchain files too?
 895 2013-04-01 04:33:40 <WACOMalt> these are from about a year ago
 896 2013-04-01 04:33:45 <sipa> no, won't help at all
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 898 2013-04-01 04:33:59 <WACOMalt> hah it just updated
 899 2013-04-01 04:34:02 <WACOMalt> all say confirmed now
 900 2013-04-01 04:34:08 <sipa> :)
 901 2013-04-01 04:34:09 <WACOMalt> no idea why it took 8 hours for that to happen
 902 2013-04-01 04:34:14 <WACOMalt> but... yay!
 903 2013-04-01 04:36:47 <gwillen> WACOMalt: yay. :-)
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 905 2013-04-01 04:39:35 <sipa> WACOMalt: nice to hear; i do wonder what the problem was though
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 920 2013-04-01 04:57:54 <WACOMalt> sipa: me too, but with my friends network setup I'd believe just about anything coulda been the issue.
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 924 2013-04-01 05:04:10 <TheButterZone> https://github.com/brainwallet/brainwallet.github.com/issues/15
 925 2013-04-01 05:05:32 <gmaxwell> TheButterZone: what does blockchain.info have to do with that?
 926 2013-04-01 05:05:58 <gmaxwell> TheButterZone: the network behavior hasn't changed, see https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees  wrt the relability of low priority transactions.
 927 2013-04-01 05:06:26 <TheButterZone> when you hit Send Transaction on brainwallet, it uses blockchain.info/pushtx
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 930 2013-04-01 05:06:59 <Trader830> instantwallet dosen't pay fees. so would it be possible for a tx to take 24 hours? one of the tx's went through, the other one hasnt but it is a large tx
 931 2013-04-01 05:08:01 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
 932 2013-04-01 05:08:17 <TheButterZone> trader830: has it even been broadcast? the recipient should check their address on blockchain.info/address/1...
 933 2013-04-01 05:08:58 <TheButterZone> i just got 1 BTC from an instawalleter and it queued for about 4 hours before broadcast
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 935 2013-04-01 05:10:34 <TheButterZone> gmaxwell: my txs are from one address to one address, nearly all of them have gotten at least 1 confirm in 60 minutes despite being zero fee. only in the past week have they begun to take longer than that as a rule
 936 2013-04-01 05:11:01 <gmaxwell> TheButterZone: if they're not even relaying its because you haven't met the relay rules. Please see the page I linked to.
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 941 2013-04-01 05:12:29 <Trader830> TheButterZone: I dont think it has. theres been no tx to the recieving address
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 943 2013-04-01 05:13:18 <Trader830> can i search the chain for a transaction of a certain size
 944 2013-04-01 05:13:36 <TheButterZone> gmaxwell: so blockchain is getting >15k bytes per minute of free txs, so its shutting them down as DOS?
 945 2013-04-01 05:13:40 <Trader830> TheButterZone: instawallet shows it as sent
 946 2013-04-01 05:14:02 <gmaxwell> ::sigh:: No.
 947 2013-04-01 05:14:49 <gmaxwell> For free a transaction to be relayable it must be smaller than 10kb, have no outputs smaller than 0.01 btc, and have a priority greater than 57600000.
 948 2013-04-01 05:15:07 <gmaxwell> I'm going to guess you failed one or more of these criteria, probably the last one at least.
 949 2013-04-01 05:16:25 <Trader830> gmaxwell: if i sent 45 btc thru instawallet (it cant pay fees) then are they larger than 10kb and did they fail to send maybey? it hasnt relayed or anything
 950 2013-04-01 05:16:44 Impaler has joined
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 952 2013-04-01 05:17:11 <gmaxwell> Trader830: are you sure instawallet can't pay fees?
 953 2013-04-01 05:17:18 <sipa> is instawallet running with a patched bitcoind that doesn't pay fees?
 954 2013-04-01 05:17:33 <Trader830> gmaxwell: thats what the site says.
 955 2013-04-01 05:18:12 <Trader830> one tx went through ok but it was small. the 45btc is nowherer its been over 12 hrs
 956 2013-04-01 05:18:21 <gmaxwell> What does it say exactly? a like?
 957 2013-04-01 05:18:29 <gmaxwell> er a link?
 958 2013-04-01 05:18:35 <sipa> Q: I sent Bitcoins from my Instawallet and they have not arrived yet. What happened?
 959 2013-04-01 05:18:38 <sipa> A: Please be patient. Instawallet currently includes no fees in transactions (this feature is planned however) and as such they can sometimes take a very long time to confirm. Please wait at least 24 hours before contacting me. You can check Bitcoin Charts or blockchain.info for currently unconfirmed transactions.
 960 2013-04-01 05:18:44 <sipa> from its FAQ
 961 2013-04-01 05:18:51 <warren> Why would you voluntarily put over $4k on a wallet that you don't control?
 962 2013-04-01 05:18:52 <sipa> ...
 963 2013-04-01 05:19:21 <gmaxwell> warren: because the expert management means you don't get stuck with issues like fees being set unwisely.
 964 2013-04-01 05:19:27 <Trader830> Q: I sent Bitcoins from my Instawallet and they have not arrived yet. What happened?  A: Please be patient. Instawallet currently includes no fees in transactions (this feature is planned however) and as such they can sometimes take a very long time to confirm. Please wait at least 24 hours before contacting me. You can check Bitcoin Charts or blockchain.info for currently unconfirmed transactions.
 965 2013-04-01 05:19:49 <Trader830> i had no idea the acct had any btc in it
 966 2013-04-01 05:19:53 <Trader830> i just found it out last night
 967 2013-04-01 05:19:57 <warren> o_O
 968 2013-04-01 05:19:59 <Trader830> got the btc when they were cheap
 969 2013-04-01 05:20:15 <gmaxwell> ah, well, you know ... those bitcoin.. pretty worthless still....
 970 2013-04-01 05:21:42 <Trader830> lol. i mean they werent sent to the address so where could they be? my connection was spotty as hell last night
 971 2013-04-01 05:21:44 <gmaxwell> lol createrawtransaction [...] '{}'  results in a transaction with an output with an empty script.
 972 2013-04-01 05:22:03 Hawkwood has joined
 973 2013-04-01 05:22:42 <sipa> Trader830: still at instawallet; they probably don't know it though
 974 2013-04-01 05:23:50 <Trader830> sipa: ok so by the nature of bitcion they have to have a record of where they are
 975 2013-04-01 05:24:32 <TheButterZone> 44987712.4417 transaction priority, if my math is correct
 976 2013-04-01 05:25:30 <gmaxwell> TheButterZone: great, so I suppose it'll cross the rule in another couple blocks, enh?
 977 2013-04-01 05:25:45 <Belxjander> Trader830: whats the Instawallet address?
 978 2013-04-01 05:26:07 * Belxjander is hunting up ALL the wallet service sites to try and find an old stash of BTC he got a while ago
 979 2013-04-01 05:26:53 * gmaxwell sets up some fake wallet service sites to capture Belxjander's most commonly used passwords.
 980 2013-04-01 05:27:53 <Trader830> Belxjander: it had a tx the day i put money in it a few years ago, and i cant track where the txs went cause its in instawallet at that point
 981 2013-04-01 05:28:20 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: I'm only searching for the recovery options and have a new password for all these services ;)
 982 2013-04-01 05:28:22 <Trader830> even though i sent money it didnt use the wallet id listed instwallet used another wallet and idk if i can find the tx id
 983 2013-04-01 05:29:32 saivann has joined
 984 2013-04-01 05:29:45 <warren> BTW, the lack of a fee isn't a limitation of instawallet.  Other instances of instawallet do pay a fee.
 985 2013-04-01 05:29:54 <TheButterZone> 22 more blocks to cross, if my math is correct
 986 2013-04-01 05:30:13 <gmaxwell> warren: I assume what they did is patch out fee paying in bitcoind while not providing any alternative.
 987 2013-04-01 05:30:45 <gmaxwell> warren: presumably they were concerned about people bitdust flooding them and causing high fees.
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 989 2013-04-01 05:31:02 <warren> oh dear
 990 2013-04-01 05:31:08 <sipa> warren: "other instances" ?
 991 2013-04-01 05:31:21 <warren> sipa: instawallet is open source, there's others out there
 992 2013-04-01 05:32:01 <Trader830> so whats gonna happen to txs like mine? they just dont get sent?
 993 2013-04-01 05:32:10 <warren> well, http://wallet.it.cx/  This used to be one.
 994 2013-04-01 05:33:16 Casimir1904 has joined
 995 2013-04-01 05:33:19 <TheButterZone> what the heck, this went from 90 to 89 https://blockchain.info/tx-index/64093504/0
 996 2013-04-01 05:33:30 <warren> gmaxwell: I expect a few things will be left behind May 15th
 997 2013-04-01 05:34:33 <gmaxwell> TheButterZone: suuure it did.
 998 2013-04-01 05:37:14 <TheButterZone> stretching the limits of dyslexia, not like 88 could be mistaken for 90, assuming one ticked up
 999 2013-04-01 05:38:18 <gmaxwell> TheButterZone: could just be a bug in the site.
1000 2013-04-01 05:38:44 <gmaxwell> Though I'd probably put more money on you being crazy. (no offense, I'd also assume I was imagining it too! :P )
1001 2013-04-01 05:39:46 RBecker is now known as rbecker
1002 2013-04-01 05:39:52 rbecker is now known as RBecker
1003 2013-04-01 05:40:44 <TheButterZone> piuk needs to put this as an error page for /pushtx http://www.hetemeel.com/haha/157353.YOUR+CURRENT+TRANSACTION+PRIORITY%20IS+INSUFFICENT+TO+BE+ZERO-FEE%21.jpg
1004 2013-04-01 05:40:47 <Trader830> sipa: you think theres a good chance instawallet will fiind the coins?
1005 2013-04-01 05:41:07 <sipa> Trader830: "find" ?
1006 2013-04-01 05:41:40 <sipa> Trader830: their wallet believes it sent them; the rest of the world doesn't know about this, and thinks it's still there
1007 2013-04-01 05:41:40 <Trader830> well they are listed as 0 in my account but they wern't sent to the address either so they ahve to be "in" thier servers right
1008 2013-04-01 05:41:56 <sipa> they'll keep retransmitting the transaction, and hopefully at some point it will be picked up by the network
1009 2013-04-01 05:42:01 <sipa> if it doesn't, poke them
1010 2013-04-01 05:42:16 <Trader830> ok thank you
1011 2013-04-01 05:42:20 <gmaxwell> TheButterZone: after colliding with a big stash of someone elses coin, I'd think you'd be turned off from the whole brainwallet/vanity wallet thing.
1012 2013-04-01 05:42:36 <warren> What benefit does the operator of instawallet get for running the service?
1013 2013-04-01 05:42:57 <sipa> warren: visibility, i guess
1014 2013-04-01 05:43:31 <Trader830> i found 3 different accounts with btc stashed
1015 2013-04-01 05:43:41 <Trader830> next im gonan run some old btc clients i have and see
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1023 2013-04-01 05:55:19 <TheButterZone> gmaxwell: it was a vanity, with java.security.SecureRandom as RNG
1024 2013-04-01 05:55:28 <TheButterZone> and someone collided with me
1025 2013-04-01 05:55:49 <TheButterZone> possibly. there hasnt been any withdrawals from that vanity except by me
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1034 2013-04-01 06:09:28 <WACOMalt> Hey devs, one more question. I was told in #bitcoin that two clients can use the same wallet without issue. I am running the same wallet in armory on two different machines. I see one discrepancy in that one of the computers shows a new transaction as having 1 confirmation, the other says 0. if I check blockchain.info it has 1.
1035 2013-04-01 06:10:14 <WACOMalt> is this discrepancy something to worry about?
1036 2013-04-01 06:11:24 chovy has joined
1037 2013-04-01 06:11:27 <chovy> howdy
1038 2013-04-01 06:11:46 <chovy> i'm not communicating very well i guess in #bitcoin so I figured i'd ask here....
1039 2013-04-01 06:12:23 <chovy> I'm building a site where userA can send an invoice to UserB and I want UserB to be able to send a message back that says it has been paid. How would UserA know who the payment came from?
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1041 2013-04-01 06:12:53 <sipa> WACOMalt: you'll have to check with the author of the client, but in general, using the wallet on two systems in dangerous; i believe armory deals well with it, but the reference client certainly doesn'y
1042 2013-04-01 06:12:54 <chovy> i'm not handling the payment at all.
1043 2013-04-01 06:13:03 <sipa> chovy: you use a different receive address for each payment
1044 2013-04-01 06:13:15 <WACOMalt> sipa "the reference client" ?
1045 2013-04-01 06:13:23 <sipa> WACOMalt: Bitcoin-Qt
1046 2013-04-01 06:13:26 <WACOMalt> oh
1047 2013-04-01 06:13:45 <chovy> sipa: i see. thanks
1048 2013-04-01 06:13:58 <chovy> what if someone re-used an address...is there anyway to track who it came from?
1049 2013-04-01 06:14:00 <WACOMalt> does armory have a channel?
1050 2013-04-01 06:14:08 <sipa> WACOMalt: #bitcoin-armory
1051 2013-04-01 06:14:12 <WACOMalt> thanks
1052 2013-04-01 06:14:32 <sipa> chovy: not really; but do you care who pays something: you're only interested in what invoice was paid
1053 2013-04-01 06:15:15 <chovy> sipa: i'm just thinking from a usability perspective. If I re-use an address, it would be hard to identify who sent it? Do I know which address it was sent from?
1054 2013-04-01 06:15:42 <sipa> chovy: yes and no; it's better to assume no
1055 2013-04-01 06:16:03 <sipa> chovy: if someone sends you money without knowing it will arrive safely, that's their problem really
1056 2013-04-01 06:16:05 WACOMalt has left ("Leaving")
1057 2013-04-01 06:16:52 <chovy> so i don't even have a hash to refrence? if the payer sent me a message on the forum that said "I paid you for this invoice #1234 from xxxxx btc address" I would'nt' be able to find the payment? (assume I have like 50 payments/day going to the address I used on the invoide).
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1059 2013-04-01 06:17:17 <sipa> chovy: they can tell you the transaction id
1060 2013-04-01 06:17:23 <chovy> ok
1061 2013-04-01 06:17:27 <chovy> good enough
1062 2013-04-01 06:18:03 <sipa> chovy: they can even sign a message "i confirm i paid X to address Y for invoice Z" with the private key they sent it with, to prove it's them
1063 2013-04-01 06:18:14 <chovy> i'll just build a form that asks for transaction id, when they mark an invoice as paid.
1064 2013-04-01 06:18:21 <chovy> and that'll get sent to the receiver.
1065 2013-04-01 06:18:23 <sipa> don't
1066 2013-04-01 06:18:31 <sipa> just use a separate address for each invoice
1067 2013-04-01 06:18:38 <jspilman> lol
1068 2013-04-01 06:18:44 <sipa> when enough money arrives on the address for that invoice, it's paid
1069 2013-04-01 06:18:48 <sipa> simple as that
1070 2013-04-01 06:19:08 <chovy> i don't really have control over what address the users will use, but I will make note of it as best practice on the "request payment" form.
1071 2013-04-01 06:19:20 <sipa> how can you not have control over that?
1072 2013-04-01 06:19:30 <sipa> you tell them "pay X to address Y"
1073 2013-04-01 06:19:33 <chovy> i'm not actually handling the payment
1074 2013-04-01 06:19:34 <warren> chovy: the payment form should give each new payment its own address
1075 2013-04-01 06:19:38 <chovy> on my site i'm building
1076 2013-04-01 06:19:41 <gmaxwell> chovy: lol. perhaps your users will pay me instead? I fully support your userbase!
1077 2013-04-01 06:20:06 <warren> chovy: it sounds like you should look into one of the payment processing companies who handle those details for you.
1078 2013-04-01 06:20:42 <sipa> if you don't handle the payment, you have nothing to worry about
1079 2013-04-01 06:20:45 <sipa> if you do, do it right
1080 2013-04-01 06:21:08 <chovy> i'm building a site where people can invoice each other and it's focused around bitcoin payments. But my site won't actually handle the payment at all. The users will just mark an invoice as paid, and I want to know how they can track it. Sounds like transaction id is enough.
1081 2013-04-01 06:21:31 <sipa> everyone can claim a transaction id is theirs
1082 2013-04-01 06:21:38 <chovy> oh
1083 2013-04-01 06:22:01 <warren> chovy: if you send invoices with unique payment addresses, there's no question of ownership
1084 2013-04-01 06:22:09 <jspilman> makes it trivial if everyone is paying invoices to the same address too
1085 2013-04-01 06:22:20 stalled_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1086 2013-04-01 06:22:27 <warren> chovy: and the payment addresses are just addresses, you the invoice host don't need their private keys
1087 2013-04-01 06:22:27 <jspilman> to claim that a txid is yours when it wasn't
1088 2013-04-01 06:23:10 <chovy> i'm not sure why anyone would claim a transaction id was theirs when it wasn't
1089 2013-04-01 06:23:20 <jspilman> so they don't have to pay the invoice?
1090 2013-04-01 06:23:25 <warren> chovy: you could make the vendor provide payment addresses for which they will receive the funds.  Then you can automate marking of "paid" by watching the address and waiting for enough confirmations.
1091 2013-04-01 06:23:58 <chovy> i don't want to facilitate bitcoin at all.
1092 2013-04-01 06:24:05 <warren> (why are you here?)
1093 2013-04-01 06:24:17 <chovy> because i'm trying to understand how a payment works.
1094 2013-04-01 06:24:30 <chovy> i mean i don't want to actually handle the payment part of it.
1095 2013-04-01 06:24:44 <jspilman> then don't put any fields at all in your form
1096 2013-04-01 06:24:50 Pel has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
1097 2013-04-01 06:25:02 <warren> chovy: if that's the case, then you're making a service that has nothing to do with bitcoin.
1098 2013-04-01 06:25:18 <gmaxwell> warren: imagine gribble monitoring otc trades and being able to confirm a trade actually happened
1099 2013-04-01 06:25:38 Optimus-Prime has joined
1100 2013-04-01 06:25:38 <warren> gmaxwell: gribble is omniscient.
1101 2013-04-01 06:25:48 <chovy> If you agreed to write some code for me, and i agree to pay you 1 BTC for it. That's it. My site will faciliate that part of it, the project, the communication, etc. But its up to the users to pay each other and mark invoices as paid. I'm just trying to know what that process looks like.
1102 2013-04-01 06:25:55 Pel has joined
1103 2013-04-01 06:26:30 <warren> good luck
1104 2013-04-01 06:26:55 <jspilman> gribble?  http://newenergyandfuel.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/The-Gribble-aka-Limnoria-quadripunctata-287x300.jpg
1105 2013-04-01 06:30:23 BlackPrapor has joined
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1107 2013-04-01 06:31:02 <Perlboy> anyone have a bunch of testnet coins i can have?
1108 2013-04-01 06:34:41 Conflict_ is now known as Conflict
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1110 2013-04-01 06:36:49 <Perlboy> if so i'd appreciate some testnet sends to: mhLCLwY3vkgiPa55VgM4KZvnGRtmK3yPJQ
1111 2013-04-01 06:37:27 kalleboo has quit (Excess Flood)
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1114 2013-04-01 06:38:40 <jspilman> now it's my turn to answer that: http://testnet.mojocoin.com/
1115 2013-04-01 06:40:37 <Perlboy> jspilman, yep, i already did that
1116 2013-04-01 06:40:49 <Perlboy> trying to collect ~1000 coins though... already got 70 or so from it...
1117 2013-04-01 06:42:00 circle has joined
1118 2013-04-01 06:42:02 <Perlboy> or u could go there and plug my address in :)
1119 2013-04-01 06:42:05 <Perlboy> that'd be good too
1120 2013-04-01 06:42:47 <jspilman> why do you need so many?
1121 2013-04-01 06:43:01 <jspilman> move the decimal place over and run the same tests you would otherwise
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1124 2013-04-01 06:46:17 <Perlboy> jspilman, well yeah, i was being lazy...
1125 2013-04-01 06:46:18 <Perlboy> :)
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1140 2013-04-01 07:05:19 <homburg> hi, I know it may be a silly question but I am reading the protocol document and cannot quite understand the maximum length (in chars) of a transactionid (say I want to store them in a db as varchar)
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1145 2013-04-01 07:09:22 <CodeShark> the transaction id is a sha256 hash. 256 bits, so 32 bytes - 64 hex characters
1146 2013-04-01 07:09:43 <homburg> ah ok, thanks codeshark
1147 2013-04-01 07:10:12 <CodeShark> so don't use a varchar
1148 2013-04-01 07:10:18 <CodeShark> use a fixed 64-char type
1149 2013-04-01 07:10:53 <homburg> ah I see, good suggestion
1150 2013-04-01 07:11:05 <homburg> the address instead is 34 max length? (chars?)
1151 2013-04-01 07:11:39 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
1152 2013-04-01 07:13:53 <CodeShark> I believe the longest possible address is given by the base58check encoding of 20 all ff bytes
1153 2013-04-01 07:13:54 <CodeShark> so 1QLbz7JHiBTspS962RLKV8GndWFwi5j6Qr
1154 2013-04-01 07:14:31 <CodeShark> which is 34 characters
1155 2013-04-01 07:14:51 <CodeShark> but you might want a few extra chars for other version bytes
1156 2013-04-01 07:15:05 <homburg> ah ok
1157 2013-04-01 07:17:09 <homburg> very helpful thanks
1158 2013-04-01 07:17:20 <jspilman> has there been any discussion on extending the URI format to support a way to request a new public key from the wallet? it would require providing a callback, such as https url for example...
1159 2013-04-01 07:17:43 unbalanced has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1161 2013-04-01 07:20:09 <jspilman> I guess the million dollar question -- if I wrote a pull for such a feature, would gmaxwell take it? :-)
1162 2013-04-01 07:20:22 <CodeShark> there's been talk of a payment protocol
1163 2013-04-01 07:20:36 <CodeShark> you might want to inquire about that before reinventing the wheel
1164 2013-04-01 07:21:56 <CodeShark> unless I misunderstand your question
1165 2013-04-01 07:22:04 fanquake has left ()
1166 2013-04-01 07:22:35 <jspilman> well we already have a URI format for requesting a payment.  it would be the logical next step
1167 2013-04-01 07:23:40 <jspilman> but it is different because of the need to return data (e.g. through an http callback) versus the current one-way flow
1168 2013-04-01 07:23:42 <CodeShark> why would the payee require a new public key from the wallet?
1169 2013-04-01 07:24:31 <CodeShark> I mean, the payee would presumably grab a new public key from their own wallet, then send it to the payer
1170 2013-04-01 07:24:34 <jspilman> requesting a pubkey?  to send money to a wallet, or to create a P2SH which includes that wallet in a multisig
1171 2013-04-01 07:24:43 <jspilman> that's different
1172 2013-04-01 07:25:00 <jspilman> then the payer still has to move the money again before it's theirs
1173 2013-04-01 07:25:18 <CodeShark> not sure I follow
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1176 2013-04-01 07:25:55 <jspilman> if you give me a pubkey, I can send funds to your wallet, or send funds to a P2SH which requires a sig from your wallet.  I never see the privkey
1177 2013-04-01 07:26:12 <CodeShark> right, but how does the URI format come into play here?
1178 2013-04-01 07:26:21 BlackPrapor has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1179 2013-04-01 07:26:40 <jspilman> If I show you a link like this...   bitcoin:pubkey?callback=<my_url>
1180 2013-04-01 07:27:07 <jspilman> then you click it on your desktop, or tap it on your iPhone, or whatever, and I get a pubkey with no typing
1181 2013-04-01 07:27:30 <CodeShark> but why not just give me the pubkey immediately?
1182 2013-04-01 07:27:30 area has joined
1183 2013-04-01 07:27:40 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1184 2013-04-01 07:27:46 <CodeShark> or hmmm
1185 2013-04-01 07:27:57 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1186 2013-04-01 07:28:05 <CodeShark> you're talking about a protocol so that the payer can request a pubkey from the payee?
1187 2013-04-01 07:28:10 <jspilman> yes
1188 2013-04-01 07:28:23 <CodeShark> but the payee presumably includes a pubkey as part of the invoice
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1190 2013-04-01 07:28:33 <jspilman> not much of a "protocol" per say, but yes
1191 2013-04-01 07:29:01 <jspilman> you could definitely collect the pubkey before hand, using the URI hopefully
1192 2013-04-01 07:30:16 <jspilman> right now pubkeys are hidden under 'validateaddress'
1193 2013-04-01 07:30:21 <Pel> Just out of curiousity, is the importance of decentralized invoices, cheques, assurance contracts, smartcontracts such that we really need to put all that in the blockchain?  Why not just use something like Open Transactions?  If you think the chain is long now and we have trouble scaling, imagine when every grocery bill, insurance policy etc. is stuffed onto the chain.
1194 2013-04-01 07:31:20 <jspilman> Pel: right now all we stuff on the bc is satoshi-dice
1195 2013-04-01 07:31:49 <CodeShark> "validateaddress" just makes sure the address is a valid base58check encoding of a pubkey hash or script hash
1196 2013-04-01 07:32:05 <Pel> Yes, :(.  Gambling and mixing or other "cash intensive" business pollute the chain enough as it is...
1197 2013-04-01 07:32:09 <jspilman> it's the only way to see the actual pubkey printed
1198 2013-04-01 07:32:15 <jspilman> you can't see it in the GUI
1199 2013-04-01 07:32:21 B0g4r7 has joined
1200 2013-04-01 07:32:29 <jspilman> of course you only need literal pubkey (vs base58) if you are doing P2SH multisig
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1202 2013-04-01 07:34:15 <jspilman> I'm trying to build an easy to use interface for managing multisig accounts, without ever seeing privkeys, and it's actually quite a pain
1203 2013-04-01 07:34:27 <jspilman> for the user that is, depending on the corner cases
1204 2013-04-01 07:35:22 <jspilman> but one thing that would make life easier for users is a way to request a pubkey
1205 2013-04-01 07:35:34 <CodeShark> merchants already provide APIs for that
1206 2013-04-01 07:35:40 <jspilman> without them having to go into debug console and validateaddress
1207 2013-04-01 07:35:43 <CodeShark> or at least some do :)
1208 2013-04-01 07:37:04 <jspilman> can you point me to someone who is doing escrow where your privkey never leaves your wallet?
1209 2013-04-01 07:38:01 <CodeShark> multisig stuff could certainly use a better UI
1210 2013-04-01 07:38:50 <jspilman> it's hard, especially when you consider things like... how does the user know the P2SH address you give them is using their pubkey in the redeemScript?
1211 2013-04-01 07:39:49 <CodeShark> you'd have to provide the user with a list of pubkeys used in the redeemscript
1212 2013-04-01 07:39:59 <CodeShark> or the client app
1213 2013-04-01 07:40:10 <CodeShark> and it would have to generate the p2sh address
1214 2013-04-01 07:40:12 <jspilman> exactly, and they would have to calculate the hash for themselves ... at least there's addmultisig for that
1215 2013-04-01 07:40:31 <jspilman> of course if they get the order wrong for the pubkeys you get a different hash, so don't screw that up!
1216 2013-04-01 07:41:33 <jspilman> so you need to ship pubkeys around, and then getting money INTO the escrow is fun, especially if you don't have a txid with the right amount of BTC already in it!  better be really good at adding/subtracting to get the txins and any change in a txout
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1218 2013-04-01 07:42:15 <CodeShark> I think I see what you're saying
1219 2013-04-01 07:42:23 <jspilman> easier to just pay yourself the right amount in a normal address, and then pay THAT one into the escrow.  but talk about block chain bloat, and of course you're resetting 'priority' so tx fees are going to increase
1220 2013-04-01 07:42:37 <jspilman> it's a clusterfuck
1221 2013-04-01 07:43:02 <jspilman> so I'm trying to make a tool which can walk users through it step-by-step, where the tool doesn't touch your wallet or your keys
1222 2013-04-01 07:43:20 <CodeShark> I see
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1224 2013-04-01 07:43:27 <jspilman> but you get into corner cases where you almost want to ask the user to paste in their 'listunspent' so you can build the transaction for them to sign!!
1225 2013-04-01 07:44:24 <CodeShark> but that has privacy implications
1226 2013-04-01 07:44:51 <jspilman> I ended up sending 49 BTC to mining fees because I screwed up change handling while I was testing at one point -- on TEST-NET thankfully :-)
1227 2013-04-01 07:45:03 <jspilman> yeah, you could never actually ask users to do that
1228 2013-04-01 07:45:28 <jspilman> so you need to ask them for just enough inputs, AND a change address
1229 2013-04-01 07:45:37 DrAkaman has joined
1230 2013-04-01 07:46:02 <CodeShark> or just swallow the extra transaction
1231 2013-04-01 07:46:18 <jspilman> anyway, that's only if you are ALSO going to require a "security deposit" where the funding of the escrow also requires the seller to put up some coin
1232 2013-04-01 07:46:36 <jspilman> if it's 100% buyer funded, they can just use the UI to send a payment to the P2SH
1233 2013-04-01 07:47:27 <jspilman> but I was trying to make the tool support "security deposits" in v1, and I think I need to back away from that :--0
1234 2013-04-01 07:49:27 <jspilman> paying OUT of the escrow is a bit easier, but I also wanted to support incremental payouts -- where the payer could "release" funds (sign a transaction with SIGHASH_SINGLE) and then payee could either let released funds accumulate, and whenever they decided, they could add their txout, sign it SIGHASH_ALL, and send it to the blockchain
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1237 2013-04-01 07:52:44 <jspilman> going to sleep now :-)  I'll bring up the URI question tomorrow when gmaxwell is around
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1271 2013-04-01 08:54:30 <Anduck> who wants to send me some test coins?
1272 2013-04-01 08:54:53 <TheButterZone> http://testnet.mojocoin.com/
1273 2013-04-01 08:57:59 basvjkldf has joined
1274 2013-04-01 08:58:42 <qwertyoruiop> Anduck: I have 3.5k, i'll send you some
1275 2013-04-01 08:58:47 <qwertyoruiop> give me your addr if you still need them
1276 2013-04-01 08:59:12 <Belxjander> test coins?
1277 2013-04-01 08:59:21 <qwertyoruiop> yep
1278 2013-04-01 08:59:49 <Anduck> nah qwertyoruiop: i can get the ones i need from that faucet thanks
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1280 2013-04-01 09:00:26 homburg has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1281 2013-04-01 09:03:02 basvjkldf is now known as nunu
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1286 2013-04-01 09:06:22 <TheButterZone> anybody know when blockchain.info starts rebroadcasting txs once their priority is well over 57,600,000?
1287 2013-04-01 09:06:29 <TheButterZone> https://blockchain.info/tx/a2d80fd5194282f0501e329d048408a306fe82b5175374eff27e9695a00135f4
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1289 2013-04-01 09:06:37 <nunu> hi, my bitcoin-qt (debian live usb system with encrypted partition) got the last block but still says its not sync. can anyone help me with that problem, or knows where to get help?
1290 2013-04-01 09:08:22 <nunu> there are 7 connections... i restartet the system and bitcoin-qt, its does not fetch any new block but still says its not sync...
1291 2013-04-01 09:08:28 mercerist has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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1297 2013-04-01 09:15:02 <nunu> I dont want to test the wallet if its not sync...
1298 2013-04-01 09:19:15 <Perdos> it won't show the tx until it's up to date either
1299 2013-04-01 09:19:38 <Perdos> to be honest, if you are like me and having this kind of problem with bitcoin-qt i'd use another one like electrum or others
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1305 2013-04-01 09:24:07 <TheButterZone> perdos was that @ me?
1306 2013-04-01 09:24:14 <nunu> well maybe I should... thx :/
1307 2013-04-01 09:25:59 <nunu> can I verify and use the blockchain with a new client? well... thats something I can google without getting "my sync takes too long"
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1309 2013-04-01 09:31:00 <Anduck> how much bitcoind eats ram?
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1311 2013-04-01 09:32:03 <Perdos> nunu: electrum does not cache the blockchain
1312 2013-04-01 09:32:22 <Perdos> TheButterZone: no, it was directed at nunu
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1314 2013-04-01 09:34:40 <nunu> so... the blockchain is not needed on local storage? I bought a new usb stick because the first one was too small... -.- all those days of work and patience for nothing? -.- great :D
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1316 2013-04-01 09:35:01 <Anduck> you dont need blockchain to have bitcoins
1317 2013-04-01 09:35:24 <nunu> I thought its needed to verify everthing and keep it save and stuff
1318 2013-04-01 09:35:29 grau has joined
1319 2013-04-01 09:36:04 <nunu> but if you say so... I#ll
1320 2013-04-01 09:36:19 <nunu> get electrum
1321 2013-04-01 09:36:32 <sipa> nunu: there are different security models; bitcoin-qt (or bitcoind), the reference client, downloads and validates the entire blockchain
1322 2013-04-01 09:36:50 <Belxjander> bitcoin-qt is the original satoshi code updated?
1323 2013-04-01 09:37:09 <sipa> nunu: but clients like Multibit or Bitcoin Wallet for Android only validate and download the block headers (which is like 30 MB), and provide reasonable security
1324 2013-04-01 09:37:12 <sipa> Belxjander: yes
1325 2013-04-01 09:37:38 <sipa> nunu: then there are clients which don't act as nodes in the network even, and rely on a central server for their information; Electrum is one example
1326 2013-04-01 09:37:43 br_oken has joined
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1328 2013-04-01 09:38:28 <Anduck> sipa: how much you said bitcoind uses memory in your vps?
1329 2013-04-01 09:39:20 <sipa> Anduck: i'm currently testing some very recent patches that decrease memory usage, but it's been running stable for a few days with 323 MiB RES now
1330 2013-04-01 09:39:29 <sipa> 129 connections
1331 2013-04-01 09:39:49 <Anduck> aight
1332 2013-04-01 09:40:00 <Anduck> mine draws like 1800 MiB :I
1333 2013-04-01 09:40:12 DrHaribo_ is now known as DrHaribo
1334 2013-04-01 09:40:13 <Anduck> what could cause it.. it's fully synced to blockchain
1335 2013-04-01 09:40:21 Guest49463 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1336 2013-04-01 09:40:29 <sipa> network buffers
1337 2013-04-01 09:40:42 <sipa> feel free to try git master as of 2 days ago
1338 2013-04-01 09:41:05 <sipa> Anduck: also, is that RES or VIRT?
1339 2013-04-01 09:41:10 <sipa> VIRT hardly matters
1340 2013-04-01 09:41:13 <Anduck> VIRT
1341 2013-04-01 09:41:22 <Anduck> why doesnt it matter
1342 2013-04-01 09:41:22 <Anduck> ?
1343 2013-04-01 09:41:24 <Anduck> RES is like 320
1344 2013-04-01 09:41:31 <sipa> oh, good
1345 2013-04-01 09:41:41 <Anduck> 360 in fact
1346 2013-04-01 09:41:42 <sipa> virt is just how much address space it has requested
1347 2013-04-01 09:41:53 <MC1984> nunu iyou dont hold the blockchain who will?
1348 2013-04-01 09:41:59 <Anduck> but it's not actually using the ram?
1349 2013-04-01 09:42:04 <Anduck> RES is the real memory usage?
1350 2013-04-01 09:42:08 <sipa> VIRT is not RAM, it is virtual memory
1351 2013-04-01 09:42:12 <sipa> RES is RAM
1352 2013-04-01 09:42:20 <Anduck> aight
1353 2013-04-01 09:42:28 jdnavarro_ has joined
1354 2013-04-01 09:43:29 <TheButterZone> does anyone have a2d80fd5194282f0501e329d048408a306fe82b5175374eff27e9695a00135f4 in their mempool?
1355 2013-04-01 09:43:51 chovy has left ()
1356 2013-04-01 09:44:12 <sipa> not here
1357 2013-04-01 09:44:16 jurov_ is now known as jurov
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1359 2013-04-01 09:44:39 <TheButterZone> fricking blockchain.info, where raw txs go to die
1360 2013-04-01 09:44:49 <sipa> not necessarily their fault
1361 2013-04-01 09:45:04 <TheButterZone> its well over 57.6 million priority now
1362 2013-04-01 09:45:31 <TheButterZone> its like if it doesnt have over 57.6 at the time of push, that's it, black hole
1363 2013-04-01 09:45:43 <TheButterZone> never to be rebroadcast, relayed, nothing
1364 2013-04-01 09:46:06 <sipa> push it again?
1365 2013-04-01 09:47:00 <nunu> MC1984, I gave it 2 shots ... if bitcoin-qt doesnt want to swallow the blockchain... someoneelse will have to hold the chain ^^ besides i got a running and synced bitcoin-qt in my windows system...
1366 2013-04-01 09:47:14 <sipa> nunu: what is the problem?
1367 2013-04-01 09:47:44 <nunu> bitcoin-qt downloaded the whole chain, but still says its out of sync
1368 2013-04-01 09:47:56 <sipa> since how long?
1369 2013-04-01 09:48:00 <nunu> restart of system and client did not change anything.
1370 2013-04-01 09:48:38 <MC1984> dbug.log?
1371 2013-04-01 09:48:46 <nunu> the sync was finsihed this night, so its about 5-10 hours now.
1372 2013-04-01 09:48:46 <sipa> nunu: since how long?
1373 2013-04-01 09:48:52 <sipa> hmm, ok
1374 2013-04-01 09:49:14 <sipa> can you paste the last few pages from your debug.log somewhere?
1375 2013-04-01 09:49:30 <Anduck> hey
1376 2013-04-01 09:49:40 <Anduck> can i use testnet=1 and testnet=0 same time?
1377 2013-04-01 09:49:43 <nunu> I have to reboot on my live stick again... dunno if IRC works trough tor (encrypted fs sould be mentioned)
1378 2013-04-01 09:49:48 <Anduck> with 2 bitcoinds running, one for testnet, one for not. and same wallet.dat?
1379 2013-04-01 09:49:56 <sipa> Anduck: if you run them at separate ports, yes
1380 2013-04-01 09:50:03 <sipa> separate wallet.dat, of course
1381 2013-04-01 09:50:29 <sipa> nunu: why do you say the sync finished, if it's still out of sync?
1382 2013-04-01 09:51:06 <nunu> it downloaded the last block, but the "out of sync" message is still shown in the frontend
1383 2013-04-01 09:51:22 <sipa> can you show a screenshot?
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1385 2013-04-01 09:51:30 <Anduck> where is testnet wallet.dat if normal wallet is at ~/.bitcoin/
1386 2013-04-01 09:51:41 <sipa> Anduck: ~/.bitcoin/testnet3/wallet.dat
1387 2013-04-01 09:51:48 <Anduck> ok, thanks
1388 2013-04-01 09:51:59 <nunu> let me boot the system I'll try to come back from there or save the log and screenshot.. could take a while though...
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1398 2013-04-01 10:07:23 <skollo> hello all
1399 2013-04-01 10:07:41 <TheButterZone> unfortunately i didnt save my raw tx to a file because of frazzled copying and pasting, and brainwallet wont show me the inputs so i can redo it
1400 2013-04-01 10:08:05 <TheButterZone> no choice but to zendesk it i guess
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1403 2013-04-01 10:09:27 <Belxjander> TheButterZone: well I will be trying to write my own bitcoin toolkit for AmigaOS once I get a working client built that I can get to grips with
1404 2013-04-01 10:10:04 <warren> TheButterZone: why did you rawtx to begin with, especially with a dust output that makes it not eligible for zero fee?
1405 2013-04-01 10:10:25 <TheButterZone> dust?
1406 2013-04-01 10:10:30 <TheButterZone> that 0.0001?
1407 2013-04-01 10:10:37 <warren> yes
1408 2013-04-01 10:11:04 <TheButterZone> i dont know how the hell that got split off, i let it autofill the maximum balance to send out
1409 2013-04-01 10:11:14 <TheButterZone> not a manual entry error
1410 2013-04-01 10:12:08 <warren> TheButterZone: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees#Sending  If I understand this correctly, it doesn't matter what priority the tx has, it won't be free because of the < 0.01 txo.
1411 2013-04-01 10:12:14 <TheButterZone> so what happens? the dust takes weeks to confirm, then the main one frees up?
1412 2013-04-01 10:12:21 skollo has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1413 2013-04-01 10:13:34 <warren> TheButterZone: if you're really worried, just double spend it to recover the funds
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1415 2013-04-01 10:13:40 <TheButterZone> its like gremlins are fucking with me starting this week. months and months of no problems
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1430 2013-04-01 10:33:49 <TheButterZone> well, let's see what happens with https://blockchain.info/tx/7879313c55a899992d1e39d4709e8494800c02a26e173585b2bd108aa9621f27
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1440 2013-04-01 10:44:07 <TheButterZone> thanks warren, hopefully i wont be back in 8 hours
1441 2013-04-01 10:44:21 TheButterZone has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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1450 2013-04-01 10:49:33 <nunu> sipa, I started the system and bitcoin-qt it got the last block and it worked. (wasnt out of sync anymore) but I startet it again (a few times) and waited for it to sync again but then there is the problem again
1451 2013-04-01 10:50:02 <nunu> cant make a screenshot (gnome misbehavior -.-)
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1453 2013-04-01 10:50:50 <nunu> basicly it looks like its syncing but theres nothing in the notification on the bottom (just the syncing symbol and the connections)
1454 2013-04-01 10:51:18 andrew12 has quit (Quit: never coming back)
1455 2013-04-01 10:51:21 <nunu> I uploaded a "bit" of my logfile... http://pastebin.com/ECtGGugt
1456 2013-04-01 10:54:29 <nunu> scrolling up and down tells me that its not a good idea to sync trough TOR.. maybe I'll just stick to another client in that system..
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1460 2013-04-01 10:58:05 <sipa> nunu: looks very normal
1461 2013-04-01 10:58:20 <sipa> nunu: if you've been offline for a while, you always need to sync up a bit again
1462 2013-04-01 10:58:34 <sipa> and through tor that may take a bit longer than otherwise
1463 2013-04-01 10:58:41 <sipa> but apart from that, i don't see any problem
1464 2013-04-01 10:58:47 <nunu> i know that
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1466 2013-04-01 10:59:24 <nunu> the first sync endet this night, but it still "is syncing"
1467 2013-04-01 10:59:34 <nunu> *it was
1468 2013-04-01 10:59:45 <nunu> after another lets say 3-4 hours...
1469 2013-04-01 11:00:07 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
1470 2013-04-01 11:00:13 <gribble> 229101
1471 2013-04-01 11:00:36 <sipa> nunu: 'syncing' means downloading the last blocks
1472 2013-04-01 11:00:45 <sipa> when you wait for a while, there will be new blocks to download
1473 2013-04-01 11:00:46 <warren> Wow, TheButterZone did it wrong again.
1474 2013-04-01 11:00:54 <nunu> and the first startup I did just now worked... it got the last block and wasnt out of sync. starting bitcoin-qt again got me syncing without success again
1475 2013-04-01 11:01:32 <nunu> i understand what is done when syncing...
1476 2013-04-01 11:01:43 <sipa> nunu: the last block mentioned in your debug.log is at height 229098
1477 2013-04-01 11:01:53 <sipa> that was generated half an hour ago
1478 2013-04-01 11:02:11 <nunu> but it has to stop and say "youre synced" when it got the last block.. which it did only just this one time
1479 2013-04-01 11:03:35 <warren> The dude was freaking out about 3.15059848 not confirming, 0 fee and a dust output preventing it.  He double spends it ... again with zero fee.  Cheap bastard.
1480 2013-04-01 11:03:58 <nunu> it takes too long even trough tor.. its just one block -.-
1481 2013-04-01 11:04:36 <nunu> and the "user output" in the frontend dissappears.,.. so its just the two symbols in the right-bottom corner
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1486 2013-04-01 11:08:41 <skinnkavaj> so Luke-Jr did you get ASIC miner today?
1487 2013-04-01 11:09:05 <skinnkavaj> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1bengb/luke_jr_receives_first_little_single_asic_off_the/
1488 2013-04-01 11:09:21 <EvilPete> I think he got some parts that look a bit like a miner
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1491 2013-04-01 11:10:00 <nunu> (My windows client works just fine, the sync is faster of course but it doesnt stay between the states "syncing" and "finished")
1492 2013-04-01 11:10:22 <nunu> well I'll just get myself another client then...
1493 2013-04-01 11:10:28 <nunu> thx for the help =)
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1498 2013-04-01 11:18:26 <ghreshbrehre> buy 50btc free2btc sell only $1500 delivery in 5 minutes http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinDE/comments/1bey95/50_bitcoin_free_extra_2_bitcoin149999/
1499 2013-04-01 11:18:30 <ghreshbrehre> buy 50btc free2btc sell only $1500 delivery in 5 minutes http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinDE/comments/1bey95/50_bitcoin_free_extra_2_bitcoin149999/
1500 2013-04-01 11:18:30 <ghreshbrehre> buy 50btc free2btc sell only $1500 delivery in 5 minutes http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinDE/comments/1bey95/50_bitcoin_free_extra_2_bitcoin149999/
1501 2013-04-01 11:18:30 <ghreshbrehre> buy 50btc free2btc sell only $1500 delivery in 5 minutes http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinDE/comments/1bey95/50_bitcoin_free_extra_2_bitcoin149999/
1502 2013-04-01 11:18:30 <ghreshbrehre> buy 50btc free2btc sell only $1500 delivery in 5 minutes http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinDE/comments/1bey95/50_bitcoin_free_extra_2_bitcoin149999/
1503 2013-04-01 11:18:43 <ghreshbrehre> buy 50btc free2btc sell only $1500 delivery in 5 minutes http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinDE/comments/1bey95/50_bitcoin_free_extra_2_bitcoin149999/
1504 2013-04-01 11:18:44 <ghreshbrehre> buy 50btc free2btc sell only $1500 delivery in 5 minutes http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinDE/comments/1bey95/50_bitcoin_free_extra_2_bitcoin149999/
1505 2013-04-01 11:18:44 <ghreshbrehre> buy 50btc free2btc sell only $1500 delivery in 5 minutes http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinDE/comments/1bey95/50_bitcoin_free_extra_2_bitcoin149999/
1506 2013-04-01 11:18:44 <ghreshbrehre> buy 50btc free2btc sell only $1500 delivery in 5 minutes http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinDE/comments/1bey95/50_bitcoin_free_extra_2_bitcoin149999/
1507 2013-04-01 11:18:45 <ghreshbrehre> buy 50btc free2btc sell only $1500 delivery in 5 minutes http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinDE/comments/1bey95/50_bitcoin_free_extra_2_bitcoin149999/
1508 2013-04-01 11:18:45 <ghreshbrehre> buy 50btc free2btc sell only $1500 delivery in 5 minutes http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinDE/comments/1bey95/50_bitcoin_free_extra_2_bitcoin149999/
1509 2013-04-01 11:18:46 <ghreshbrehre> buy 50btc free2btc sell only $1500 delivery in 5 minutes http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinDE/comments/1bey95/50_bitcoin_free_extra_2_bitcoin149999/
1510 2013-04-01 11:18:46 <ghreshbrehre> buy 50btc free2btc sell only $1500 delivery in 5 minutes http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinDE/comments/1bey95/50_bitcoin_free_extra_2_bitcoin149999/
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1603 2013-04-01 12:59:51 <MC1984> !stats
1604 2013-04-01 12:59:51 <gribble> I have 17 registered users with 22 registered hostmasks; 1 owner and 0 admins.
1605 2013-04-01 12:59:52 <wrabbit> In the last 60 minutes, 0 people have made 0 spam reports. Average of 0 per person.
1606 2013-04-01 13:00:01 <MC1984> wot
1607 2013-04-01 13:00:20 <fishfish> hello! anyone here using mongodb ? I'm struggling with understanding how to store my btc values - as mongo doesn't support currency datatypes/decimals. Float seems innacurate, especially as we have 8 decimal precision in btc
1608 2013-04-01 13:00:28 <MC1984> !genrate
1609 2013-04-01 13:00:28 <gribble> (genrate <hashrate> [<difficulty>]) -- Calculate expected bitcoin generation rate using <hashrate> Mhps, at current difficulty. If optional <difficulty> argument is provided, expected generation time is for supplied difficulty.
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1613 2013-04-01 13:05:27 <MC1984> whats the one that makes gribble show the hashrate
1614 2013-04-01 13:05:33 <MC1984> !hashrate
1615 2013-04-01 13:05:34 <gribble> Error: "hashrate" is not a valid command.
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1620 2013-04-01 13:09:09 <redeeman> fishfish, use strings then, if it doesnt have a precise number thing
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1625 2013-04-01 13:14:34 <fishfish> thanks redeeman
1626 2013-04-01 13:14:58 <redeeman> but does it really not have an arbitrary precision number type?
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1628 2013-04-01 13:15:47 <redeeman> it could also be that it considers float to be infinitely precise, but you should confirm that before using it
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1671 2013-04-01 14:03:08 <UukGoblin> hi, I'm thinking of creating a transaction offline. I'm not an armoury user and don't want to transfer funds to armoury. Is there anything higher-level than createrawtransaction?
1672 2013-04-01 14:03:36 <UukGoblin> like, I'd like to make sure that fees are correct and that change is paid to the correct address in my wallet
1673 2013-04-01 14:04:04 <UukGoblin> or perhaps is there something to make sure that the transaction looks sane before sending it?
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1677 2013-04-01 14:07:24 wallet42 has joined
1678 2013-04-01 14:07:39 Faradayy__ is now known as Faraday_
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1680 2013-04-01 14:10:28 <wallet42> can anyhone help me with createrawtransaction?
1681 2013-04-01 14:10:42 <wallet42> i'm getting error: {"code":-8,"message":"Invalid parameter, missing vout key"}
1682 2013-04-01 14:11:29 <upb> maybe youre missing the vout key?
1683 2013-04-01 14:11:35 _pr has joined
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1688 2013-04-01 14:13:22 <bwen> upb: that would be too obvious -.-
1689 2013-04-01 14:13:44 MobPhone has joined
1690 2013-04-01 14:13:50 <sipa> wallet42: just checked the source; it means the vout key is either missing or not an integer
1691 2013-04-01 14:14:58 <wallet42> so its in satoshis?
1692 2013-04-01 14:15:06 <wallet42> uh...
1693 2013-04-01 14:15:10 <wallet42> no
1694 2013-04-01 14:15:12 <sipa> no it's the index of the output you're consuming
1695 2013-04-01 14:15:14 <wallet42>  i ment an integer
1696 2013-04-01 14:15:24 <wallet42> "vout": 1
1697 2013-04-01 14:15:30 <wallet42> or "vout": "1"
1698 2013-04-01 14:15:34 <sipa> the former
1699 2013-04-01 14:16:05 <wallet42> bitcoind -testnet createrawtransaction '[{"txid": "89a5556e36aa579d6b238a52b6cffe1a79522cf484e2c62526d9afd96c79d101","vout": "1"}]' ...
1700 2013-04-01 14:16:22 <sipa> no, "vout" : 1
1701 2013-04-01 14:16:26 <sipa> not "11
1702 2013-04-01 14:16:28 <sipa> not "1"
1703 2013-04-01 14:16:34 <wallet42> ah
1704 2013-04-01 14:16:35 <wallet42> thx
1705 2013-04-01 14:16:59 <wallet42> and the output iin satoshis right?
1706 2013-04-01 14:17:22 <wallet42> an no
1707 2013-04-01 14:17:30 <wallet42> ok it worked
1708 2013-04-01 14:17:32 <wallet42> thx
1709 2013-04-01 14:18:50 <_pr> are there any plans to make it possible to more securely chain unconfirmed transactions?
1710 2013-04-01 14:19:04 <sipa> _pr: how would you do that?
1711 2013-04-01 14:19:51 jsfsn has joined
1712 2013-04-01 14:20:07 <_pr> make it so that the tx cannot be overwritten by one with a different hash
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1714 2013-04-01 14:20:22 <sipa> that's already the case?
1715 2013-04-01 14:20:33 <sipa> at least inside the mempool
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1719 2013-04-01 14:21:30 <jsfsn> Hello. Are there any system documentation of the bitcoind-qt source?
1720 2013-04-01 14:21:38 <jsfsn> documentation/s
1721 2013-04-01 14:21:53 <sydna> htp://bitcoin.it/
1722 2013-04-01 14:22:32 <_pr> from https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_Malleability "it is not safe to accept a chain of unconfirmed transactions under any circumstance because the latter transactions will depend on the hashes of the previous transactions"
1723 2013-04-01 14:23:11 <_pr> and "it is possible for a node on the network to change a transaction you send in such a way that the hash is invalidated"
1724 2013-04-01 14:23:23 <sipa> _pr: of course it's possible
1725 2013-04-01 14:23:46 testnode9 has joined
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1727 2013-04-01 14:23:52 <sipa> _pr: the system is designed to make it hard, but it's fundamentally impossible to get global consensus about the order of conflicting transactions
1728 2013-04-01 14:24:06 <sipa> _pr: if that were possible, we wouldn't need the block chain at all
1729 2013-04-01 14:24:11 <_pr> sure, would it likely be detected as a double spend?
1730 2013-04-01 14:24:29 <sipa> nodes simply reject/ignore any transaction that is a double spend
1731 2013-04-01 14:24:42 Lefont has joined
1732 2013-04-01 14:24:48 <sipa> but if a block is created with a transaction that conflicts with one in the mempool, the one in a block wins
1733 2013-04-01 14:24:56 <_pr> ok - so different nodes could get different versions of the same tx and the blockchain resolves this
1734 2013-04-01 14:25:00 <sipa> exactly
1735 2013-04-01 14:25:26 <sipa> not different versions of the same transaction - just different conflicting ones
1736 2013-04-01 14:26:08 <_pr> yes - i see
1737 2013-04-01 14:26:43 Noted has joined
1738 2013-04-01 14:27:07 rdymac has joined
1739 2013-04-01 14:27:25 <_pr> so for knowing if your transaction is likely to end up in the blockchain, it is most relevent to see how many GH/s is being devoted to creating a block with it in
1740 2013-04-01 14:27:32 <_pr> relevant*
1741 2013-04-01 14:28:06 <_pr> rather than just how many nodes
1742 2013-04-01 14:28:13 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1743 2013-04-01 14:28:18 <_pr> (theoretical problem i know)
1744 2013-04-01 14:28:22 daybyter has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1745 2013-04-01 14:28:46 i2pRelay has joined
1746 2013-04-01 14:28:47 <_pr> sipa: would you agree?
1747 2013-04-01 14:29:08 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: where does code use 50k for a limit for invs?
1748 2013-04-01 14:29:54 <sipa> _pr: yes
1749 2013-04-01 14:30:08 <_pr> sipa: thanks
1750 2013-04-01 14:30:29 <sipa> _pr: though for double-spend prevention before confirmation, the network plays a larger role than miners
1751 2013-04-01 14:31:09 ocminer has quit (Quit: ocminer)
1752 2013-04-01 14:31:13 <_pr> sipa: could you explain further?
1753 2013-04-01 14:31:37 ocminer has joined
1754 2013-04-01 14:31:37 <sipa> every node maintains a memory pool of unconfirmed transactions, and they reject any transaction that conflicts with their mempool
1755 2013-04-01 14:31:40 Muda has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1756 2013-04-01 14:31:59 <_pr> understood
1757 2013-04-01 14:32:07 <sipa> so the network prevents double spending in this way, by not relaying anything that looks like a double spend
1758 2013-04-01 14:32:31 <tockitj> congrats devs, BTC is oscillating around $100
1759 2013-04-01 14:32:41 <sipa> of course, ultimately it's up to miners to figure out which of two conflicts gets in
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1762 2013-04-01 14:32:57 <_pr> so network effects cause the unconfirmed transactions to avalanche through the network
1763 2013-04-01 14:33:06 Cryo has joined
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1765 2013-04-01 14:34:08 <_pr> is it only if conflicting transactions are broadcast very closely in time that the p2p network ends up with them in different nodes?
1766 2013-04-01 14:34:27 <sipa> yes, and to the extent that if you broadcast two conflicting transactions from different points in the network, with even just a small time delay between them, the majority will likely see the first one first
1767 2013-04-01 14:34:38 saulimus has joined
1768 2013-04-01 14:34:41 <sipa> so that makes it likelier that the first ones also gets mined
1769 2013-04-01 14:34:54 <sipa> of course, if miners play along, anything is possible
1770 2013-04-01 14:35:12 saulimus has quit (Client Quit)
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1772 2013-04-01 14:35:42 <Cryo> love the insane hashrate
1773 2013-04-01 14:35:52 Phraust has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1774 2013-04-01 14:36:03 Goonie has left ()
1775 2013-04-01 14:36:13 <sipa> ;;bc,nethash
1776 2013-04-01 14:36:16 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1777 2013-04-01 14:36:16 <gribble> Error: "bc,nethash" is not a valid command.
1778 2013-04-01 14:36:21 <sipa> ;;nethash
1779 2013-04-01 14:36:24 Phraust has joined
1780 2013-04-01 14:36:27 <gribble> 61045.3898481
1781 2013-04-01 14:36:40 <wallet42> it is possible to spend 0 confirmation transactions
1782 2013-04-01 14:36:49 i2pRelay has joined
1783 2013-04-01 14:36:50 <Cryo> oh your chart was showing like 73k
1784 2013-04-01 14:36:54 <sipa> wallet42: if they are your own
1785 2013-04-01 14:36:56 <_pr> so could the 'mempool' message in BIP0035 be useful for checking your unconfirmed txs?
1786 2013-04-01 14:37:00 <Cryo> but damn, almost $100 per BTC
1787 2013-04-01 14:37:15 <sipa> wallet42: and not every client supports it
1788 2013-04-01 14:37:18 <sipa> wallet42: the protocol does
1789 2013-04-01 14:37:29 <wallet42> yes, so i can spend the "change" immediatly in the next transaction
1790 2013-04-01 14:37:35 <sipa> yes
1791 2013-04-01 14:37:44 <wallet42> otherwise i would have to wait 10 minutes between each transaction
1792 2013-04-01 14:38:31 <bwen> cyro: already hit the 100 mark on mtgox
1793 2013-04-01 14:38:41 <bwen> 101 now :p
1794 2013-04-01 14:39:10 <Cryo> yeh, was looking at bitcoincharts
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1798 2013-04-01 14:39:55 <Cryo> I would say congrats on the code being pretty damned solid (sans the 0.8 burp)
1799 2013-04-01 14:39:56 MobPhone has quit (Quit: -a- Android IRC 2.0.2 Just need to be Chiznillen)
1800 2013-04-01 14:40:13 <sipa> Cryo: well the 1-day estimate is indeed higher, but it's also much more easily perturbed by random noise
1801 2013-04-01 14:40:13 <bwen> media are going to have a feel trip with Bitcoin getting over 100 on april's fool :P
1802 2013-04-01 14:40:18 <bwen> field*
1803 2013-04-01 14:40:36 <_pr> wallet42: sipa: imho, it would be good for clients to support spending 0 confirmation transactions (even if it's configurable)
1804 2013-04-01 14:40:54 <bwen> I think 1 confirm would be enough
1805 2013-04-01 14:41:01 <Cryo> heh, I'm trying to pretend it's not 4/1
1806 2013-04-01 14:41:03 <sipa> _pr: the reference client does
1807 2013-04-01 14:41:06 <bwen> already the bitcoind adds it to balance after 1 confirm
1808 2013-04-01 14:41:27 <Cryo> it was dumb enough in elementary school.. the Internet just amplifies it by bazillions
1809 2013-04-01 14:42:07 <_pr> wallet42: sipa: mainly because of demonstrating BTC to an interested n00b, it trips you up if you have to wait for a conf. after sending them BTC and saying that they can go gamble them (or whatever)
1810 2013-04-01 14:42:49 <_pr> ah - must be the android bitcoin wallet that doesn't let you spend 0 conf. tx
1811 2013-04-01 14:43:00 <sipa> _pr: using unconfirmed _external_ inputs is very risky, as it means you can get long chains that get reverted entirely by a doublespend/reorg
1812 2013-04-01 14:43:17 <wallet42> why are so many people throwing their btc's at satoshi dice?!
1813 2013-04-01 14:43:37 <sydna> gullible
1814 2013-04-01 14:43:41 <bwen> its the "what if"
1815 2013-04-01 14:43:42 <sipa> _pr: to the point that if you know someone himself dares to send unconfirmed inputs for transactions to you, you should trust these inputs yourself less
1816 2013-04-01 14:43:43 <wallet42> they understand the concept of a cryptocurrency but not the concept of expected value?!
1817 2013-04-01 14:43:59 <sipa> _pr: however, if it'a an input created by yourself, well, you trust yourself :)
1818 2013-04-01 14:44:12 <BlueMatt> awww, no joke rfcs up atm...
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1821 2013-04-01 14:46:12 <Cryo> wallet42, you can't underestimate the power of stupid that people have with expendable money in their possession.
1822 2013-04-01 14:46:12 <_pr> sipa: true, can you also check the tx chain for external inputs to mitigate that risk?
1823 2013-04-01 14:46:54 eralardz has joined
1824 2013-04-01 14:47:39 <sipa> _pr: you don't know which dependencies were your sender's own, and which are further away in the trust graph
1825 2013-04-01 14:47:59 <helo> wallet42: you should take Cryo's bet ;)
1826 2013-04-01 14:48:06 n5 has joined
1827 2013-04-01 14:48:18 <Cryo> yes, let me send you my wallet id :)
1828 2013-04-01 14:48:50 <Cryo> you can send me 1 btc, and if I feel like it, I'll laugh at you.
1829 2013-04-01 14:48:56 <sydna> there's a whole lot of interesting mentality behind gambling really. a certain belief that although there's a 50-50 chance, the person won't lose because it will happen to *someone else*
1830 2013-04-01 14:49:07 <sydna> same reason people smoke.
1831 2013-04-01 14:49:16 <sydna> yes it will cause cancer, but not to them, someone else.
1832 2013-04-01 14:49:26 <helo> and drive
1833 2013-04-01 14:49:30 <sipa> sydna: i really doubt that's the reason
1834 2013-04-01 14:49:59 <sydna> sipa: that's certainly one of the justifications for risk taking
1835 2013-04-01 14:50:05 <sipa> sydna: in fact, i believe the word 'reason' is entirely inappropriate here: they do because they like it; and liking it by itself is enough to make you rationalize any bad effects away
1836 2013-04-01 14:50:22 <Cryo> on a serious note, I don't like the idea of the Unknowns in the chart being so large.  Having singular entities that are capable of swaying the market is bad, imho.
1837 2013-04-01 14:50:24 Supa has joined
1838 2013-04-01 14:50:29 <Scrat> sydna: the biggest is: "well i've lost a lot so i'm bound to win now"
1839 2013-04-01 14:50:44 <Cryo> especially government-sponsored unknowns.
1840 2013-04-01 14:50:48 <sipa> there are drugs whose users have an average remaining lifetime of 1-2y; they don't stop either
1841 2013-04-01 14:50:53 <sydna> Scrat: that's the classic gamblers fallacy
1842 2013-04-01 14:50:55 <sipa> any rational argument is against it
1843 2013-04-01 14:51:13 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1844 2013-04-01 14:51:29 <sipa> Scrat: that's a very common fallacy indeed :)
1845 2013-04-01 14:51:38 <sydna> drug users are somewhat detached from any sense of reasoning or sense
1846 2013-04-01 14:51:46 <sydna> though I suppose gamblers are too
1847 2013-04-01 14:51:47 <sipa> my point exactly
1848 2013-04-01 14:51:59 <Supa> network ddos underway
1849 2013-04-01 14:52:01 <Supa> :D
1850 2013-04-01 14:52:06 <sipa> ?
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1852 2013-04-01 14:52:24 <Cryo> the dwolla thing?
1853 2013-04-01 14:52:25 <Scrat> sydna: abusers*
1854 2013-04-01 14:52:37 <Scrat> plenty of users who can control it and not let it control their lives
1855 2013-04-01 14:52:50 i2pRelay has joined
1856 2013-04-01 14:53:03 <sydna> I don't think there's many users of methamphetamine that have any level of control
1857 2013-04-01 14:53:44 Supa has quit (Excess Flood)
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1859 2013-04-01 14:53:58 <_pr> sipa: could a receiver reduce the risk of a chained unconfirmed transaction by check a sample of mempools for the dependencies of the unconfirmed transaction to ensure they have propagated around the p2p network
1860 2013-04-01 14:54:08 <_pr> s/check/checking/
1861 2013-04-01 14:54:41 Supa has quit (Excess Flood)
1862 2013-04-01 14:54:42 <sydna> _pr: out of curiosity, I tried this a little while ago. I wrote a python script to connect to multiple nodes and measure latency between TX.
1863 2013-04-01 14:54:52 Supa has joined
1864 2013-04-01 14:55:10 brendyn is now known as donglord8000
1865 2013-04-01 14:55:13 <Supa> now your just a network that I used to know
1866 2013-04-01 14:55:13 <Supa> now your just a network that I used to know
1867 2013-04-01 14:55:28 Supa has quit (Excess Flood)
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1870 2013-04-01 14:55:41 <_pr> sydna: what did you discover?
1871 2013-04-01 14:56:13 Supa has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
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1873 2013-04-01 14:56:56 <sydna> _pr: depends on the TX, and what nodes I connected to. some made it to all the nodes I was monitoring in less than a second, some hung around for a few before making it around. if I was going to do it seriously, I'd study the nodes to find the 'furthest' ones possible.
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1881 2013-04-01 14:58:49 <sydna> _pr:  to be clear, I was only looking at 5-6 nodes simultaneously. even that got spammy fast.
1882 2013-04-01 14:59:04 hnz has quit ()
1883 2013-04-01 14:59:34 <_pr> sydna: in what way was it spammy?
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1887 2013-04-01 15:00:51 <sydna> _pr: it wasn't an elegant affair. just with SatoshiDice and friends, there's a lot of transactions a second to be viewing in a terminal session
1888 2013-04-01 15:00:52 i2pRelay has joined
1889 2013-04-01 15:01:12 <sydna> _pr: I'm tempted to make it up properly, it's something i was thinking about today
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1906 2013-04-01 15:10:06 <_pr> sydna: it could be possible to make a nice graphical representation of that data
1907 2013-04-01 15:13:09 <sydna> _pr: certainly, but I'm not sure of the use
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1913 2013-04-01 15:18:09 <MC1984> god dammit why is litecoin worth actual money
1914 2013-04-01 15:20:45 <Graet> ikr :/
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1922 2013-04-01 15:23:40 <MC1984> it solves no problms
1923 2013-04-01 15:23:49 <MC1984> it has hardly any dev support i gather
1924 2013-04-01 15:24:11 Thepok2 has joined
1925 2013-04-01 15:24:12 <MC1984> the scrypt stuff turned out to be a lie
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1927 2013-04-01 15:24:28 <helo> because gpus?
1928 2013-04-01 15:24:39 <MC1984> its being pumped as a gravy train for butthurt gpu miners and those that missed out on bitcoin
1929 2013-04-01 15:24:58 i2pRelay has joined
1930 2013-04-01 15:25:19 <helo> the defeat of litecoin will be a milestone for bitcoin... we need future goals now that the value is over 9000
1931 2013-04-01 15:25:42 <MC1984> i dont even know what problem they were trying to fix with 2.5min block times
1932 2013-04-01 15:25:53 <helo> yes you do :/
1933 2013-04-01 15:25:57 <Lefont> MC1984: what do you mean the scrypt stuff turned out to be a lie??...what do you mean by that?
1934 2013-04-01 15:25:58 <MC1984> anything that is a problem with a 10 min confirm is still a problem with 2.5min
1935 2013-04-01 15:26:04 <sydna> the 2.5 minute block time is to just make it different to bitcoin
1936 2013-04-01 15:26:16 <helo> they just completely misunderstood the effects of the 2.5 modification
1937 2013-04-01 15:26:52 Noted1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1938 2013-04-01 15:26:57 <sydna> _pr: I might actually do the same for a block monitor. that'd be more fun.
1939 2013-04-01 15:26:57 <MC1984> Lefont the original promise was that it was GPU resistant so it could be cpu mined alongside bitcoin
1940 2013-04-01 15:27:18 <MC1984> and to make sure mining always has a good plurality
1941 2013-04-01 15:27:21 draradec1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1942 2013-04-01 15:27:25 <MC1984> i bought that initially, but it was wong
1943 2013-04-01 15:27:33 <Lefont> oh thats what you meant...i guess this is some what true but, the leap from cpu to gpu wasnt as big as it was in bitcoins
1944 2013-04-01 15:27:37 <flound1129> just because it was wrong, doesn't make it a lie
1945 2013-04-01 15:27:39 <sydna> I don't understand that ideal. why limit to CPUs? you'll just consume more power.
1946 2013-04-01 15:27:40 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1947 2013-04-01 15:27:56 <sydna> and CPU-only mining leads botnets to profit more
1948 2013-04-01 15:28:05 <Cryo> poor bitcoincharts is 502'ing from the load
1949 2013-04-01 15:28:19 <Lefont> the idea was so pople could take aprt in litcoins without making a large monitary investment
1950 2013-04-01 15:28:21 <MC1984> Lefont doesnt matter how not as big it is, any gain will tend the competitive mining market towards speciaised hardware
1951 2013-04-01 15:28:26 draradech has joined
1952 2013-04-01 15:28:33 <MC1984> bitcoin goes with this, litecoin fights it
1953 2013-04-01 15:28:52 <sydna> at least ASIC hardware reduces the power fingerprint.
1954 2013-04-01 15:29:11 <sipa> sydna: i doubt that
1955 2013-04-01 15:29:17 <Lefont> i don't disagree just poiting that out...i mean i agree that litcoin solves no problems ..its just a lsight difference over bitcoins
1956 2013-04-01 15:29:24 <sipa> sydna: i think it will increase the hashrate to the point where it consumes the same
1957 2013-04-01 15:29:34 <MC1984> Lefont also the umours that someone knew scrypt could be done on a GPU and was doing so from early on, which takes litecoin very close to scam if true
1958 2013-04-01 15:29:46 <sydna> sipa: good point, I'd forgotten that
1959 2013-04-01 15:30:37 <wumpus> MC1984: very likely that it's possible; even non-embarassingly-parallel problems can be done on GPU these days, but you will gain less
1960 2013-04-01 15:31:02 manet has joined
1961 2013-04-01 15:31:03 <flound1129> gpu mining ltc is about 1000x less efficient than gpu mining btc
1962 2013-04-01 15:31:17 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: It is a constant: MAX_INV_SZ (50000)
1963 2013-04-01 15:31:18 <flound1129> and only around 10x more efficient than cpu mining
1964 2013-04-01 15:31:41 <MC1984> 10x is a lot
1965 2013-04-01 15:31:57 <flound1129> 10x only if you're using top of the line graphics cards
1966 2013-04-01 15:32:09 <sydna> the thing is, that any reasonable botnet could blow litecoin away entirely
1967 2013-04-01 15:32:11 <MC1984> its a bad excuse
1968 2013-04-01 15:32:22 <MC1984> im sick of hearing that excuse
1969 2013-04-01 15:32:28 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1970 2013-04-01 15:32:54 <Cryo> it only takes one hash to get 50btc :)
1971 2013-04-01 15:33:00 <sipa> 25
1972 2013-04-01 15:33:01 i2pRelay has joined
1973 2013-04-01 15:33:02 <sydna> … 25
1974 2013-04-01 15:33:10 <Cryo> +24
1975 2013-04-01 15:33:15 <MC1984> sydna ltc is gonna be swampd in botnets the way its going
1976 2013-04-01 15:33:22 <Cryo> still.. :)
1977 2013-04-01 15:33:45 <wumpus> their saving grace may be that no one with a botnet cares enough about them :p
1978 2013-04-01 15:33:58 <MC1984> and the ironic fact that gpus arnt "very much better" than cpu for scrypt will be its undoing
1979 2013-04-01 15:34:09 <flound1129> how's that?
1980 2013-04-01 15:34:17 <MC1984> and thees nothing stoppid botnets gpu mining it either
1981 2013-04-01 15:34:21 <sydna> all it would take is one herder to notice litecoin and give it a go. there's already huge botnets mining bitcoins.
1982 2013-04-01 15:34:37 <MC1984> exactly
1983 2013-04-01 15:34:40 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
1984 2013-04-01 15:35:08 <helo> the herder would likely not want to harm it though
1985 2013-04-01 15:35:14 <MC1984> nefarious actors mining for free with stolen resources is a massive leak in the mining market model
1986 2013-04-01 15:35:27 <MC1984> that bitcoin is only just starting to finally deal with as asics roll out
1987 2013-04-01 15:35:38 Muda has quit ()
1988 2013-04-01 15:35:50 <sydna> i doubt that botnet mining is very efficient. it would make people notice the infection.
1989 2013-04-01 15:35:58 <flound1129> mining ltc efficiently requires hand tuning of the gpu though
1990 2013-04-01 15:36:06 <flound1129> it wouldn't be practical to do that with a botnet
1991 2013-04-01 15:36:08 <wumpus> you could still buy asics with stolen resources, or use stolen power to power them, no financial system can get rid of criminals
1992 2013-04-01 15:36:15 <MC1984> not if you limited it to 50% duty cycle and low priority or whatever
1993 2013-04-01 15:36:20 <helo> sydna: cpu mining at the proper niceness isn't too noticeable
1994 2013-04-01 15:36:26 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: mmm, yea per-message limit...maybe I should change the 16k to that then
1995 2013-04-01 15:36:31 <helo> i accidently left testnet mining on for two weeks
1996 2013-04-01 15:36:37 <MC1984> lol
1997 2013-04-01 15:36:43 <helo> (anyone want some testnet coin?)
1998 2013-04-01 15:36:50 <MC1984> lol ok
1999 2013-04-01 15:37:22 <MC1984> i swear to god testcoins will be getting value next
2000 2013-04-01 15:37:26 * jgarzik ponders posting some testnet-in-a-box instructions
2001 2013-04-01 15:37:34 <jgarzik> MC1984: we intentionally reset testnet if that happens :)
2002 2013-04-01 15:37:41 <jgarzik> ASIC miners occasionally test on testnet
2003 2013-04-01 15:37:45 <MC1984> i know, doesnt stop people trying though
2004 2013-04-01 15:37:47 <jgarzik> rather than testnet-in-a-box
2005 2013-04-01 15:37:57 <sydna> there's also a faucet giving out 777BTC on the testnet
2006 2013-04-01 15:38:39 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
2007 2013-04-01 15:39:47 <MC1984> all the actual altcoins that solved an interesting problem died because no can GT RICH QUICK off them
2008 2013-04-01 15:39:48 <jgarzik> 777 tnBTC
2009 2013-04-01 15:39:52 <MC1984> ffffffffffffffffffffUCK
2010 2013-04-01 15:40:30 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2011 2013-04-01 15:40:45 <Cryo> are asic actually allowed on the real net yet?
2012 2013-04-01 15:40:55 <flound1129> allowed?
2013 2013-04-01 15:40:56 <_dr> allowed?
2014 2013-04-01 15:41:02 i2pRelay has joined
2015 2013-04-01 15:41:03 <Cryo> encouraged
2016 2013-04-01 15:41:04 <flound1129> lmao
2017 2013-04-01 15:41:05 Perdos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018 2013-04-01 15:41:30 <_dr> people with asics are making tons of money... don't know if you have to encourage them in order to do so :)
2019 2013-04-01 15:41:33 <sipa> "here is a device that earns back its price in a few days. but please don't use it!" -- i'm sure that'd work
2020 2013-04-01 15:42:06 <Cryo> I was thinking more along the lines of them generating a huge number of hashes that have to be validated
2021 2013-04-01 15:42:10 fanquake has left ()
2022 2013-04-01 15:42:21 <sipa> only the miner has to validate them
2023 2013-04-01 15:42:24 <wumpus>  MC1984 the problem is that for most people bitcoin is already so different from anything they are used to, that the difference between the altcoins pales in comparison
2024 2013-04-01 15:42:27 <jchp> well if you wanted to kill the value of litecoins and other altcoins, you should write a client that automatically sells the coins on btc-e or other exchange whenver it receives it
2025 2013-04-01 15:42:32 <sipa> the number of winning ones remains the same: one every 10 minutes
2026 2013-04-01 15:42:33 cryptorific has joined
2027 2013-04-01 15:42:34 onthestairs has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2028 2013-04-01 15:42:35 <jchp> from the pool
2029 2013-04-01 15:43:22 <jchp> there isn't htat much liquidity in altcoins for a sizable portion automatically selling the altcoins
2030 2013-04-01 15:44:15 ErnestoJuarell has joined
2031 2013-04-01 15:45:51 <helo> Cryo: the asic validates its own hashes
2032 2013-04-01 15:47:11 Perdos has joined
2033 2013-04-01 15:47:28 <jgarzik>  9855 ?        SNsl   2:32 /spare/repo/bitcoin/src/bitcoind -datadir=/spare/bitcoin/data -daemon -addnode=69.64.
2034 2013-04-01 15:47:28 <jgarzik>  9863 ?        SN     0:00  \_ /spare/repo/bitcoin/src/bitcoind -datadir=/spare/bitcoin/data -daemon -addnode=69
2035 2013-04-01 15:47:32 <jgarzik> yum.  multi-processing.
2036 2013-04-01 15:47:34 cads has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2037 2013-04-01 15:47:49 <MC1984> well at least solidcoin finally died
2038 2013-04-01 15:48:27 <Cryo> helo, yeh, but they still have to be verified by an external source, right?
2039 2013-04-01 15:48:31 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2040 2013-04-01 15:48:48 <sipa> Cryo: that takes about a tenth of a microsecond
2041 2013-04-01 15:48:49 <ErnestoJuarell> Anyone here build bitcoin-qt with VS?
2042 2013-04-01 15:48:58 <sipa> Cryo: and only 1 per 10 minutes
2043 2013-04-01 15:48:58 <helo> Cryo: only the ones that succeed. and the difficulty will increase so that the same number of externally verified hashes are the same
2044 2013-04-01 15:49:04 i2pRelay has joined
2045 2013-04-01 15:49:25 <Cryo> hmm, ok... then why does the hashing of the wallet take more then 5 minutes :)
2046 2013-04-01 15:49:35 <sipa> hashing of the wallet...???
2047 2013-04-01 15:49:47 <Cryo> er reindexing
2048 2013-04-01 15:49:52 Perdos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2049 2013-04-01 15:49:59 <sipa> reindexing in 5 minutes? :o
2050 2013-04-01 15:50:02 <helo> asics don't effect reindexing time
2051 2013-04-01 15:50:09 <sipa> what 2040 hardware are you using?
2052 2013-04-01 15:50:10 <helo> *affect
2053 2013-04-01 15:50:12 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
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2055 2013-04-01 15:50:14 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
2056 2013-04-01 15:50:35 <MC1984> wtf am i reading
2057 2013-04-01 15:50:54 <sipa> Cryo: reindexing means validating the entire chain of transactions
2058 2013-04-01 15:51:08 <sipa> Cryo: blocks contain transactions, and there is one block per 10 minutes
2059 2013-04-01 15:51:18 <sipa> Cryo: if there is more hashing power, blocks become harder to create
2060 2013-04-01 15:51:28 <Jere_Jones> ErnestoJuarell: If you get that working, you should seriously blog about it.
2061 2013-04-01 15:51:31 FredEE has joined
2062 2013-04-01 15:51:34 <Cryo> so harder to create not more of. got it.
2063 2013-04-01 15:51:36 <sipa> but validating a block is trivial - it's verifying the transactions in it that takes time
2064 2013-04-01 15:51:38 <BlueMatt> one potential use of bitcoin-over-udp: because you dont need a response packet to announce a new tx (ignoring invs), you can anonymously broadcast transactions using bitcoin-over-avian-carrier
2065 2013-04-01 15:51:45 <Cryo> I didn't gather that from the original RFC
2066 2013-04-01 15:51:48 <Cryo> I apologize :)
2067 2013-04-01 15:52:09 <sipa> anyone good with autotools or any build/make/blah system?
2068 2013-04-01 15:52:21 <BlueMatt> jgarzik usually knows what hes doing with that
2069 2013-04-01 15:52:27 <sipa> i'd like to have some configurability for libsecp256k1
2070 2013-04-01 15:52:41 <sipa> instead of building every combination of options every time :D
2071 2013-04-01 15:52:53 <TD> hello
2072 2013-04-01 15:53:01 <BlueMatt> g'day TD
2073 2013-04-01 15:53:10 <sipa> hi there
2074 2013-04-01 15:53:41 <jgarzik> sipa: feel free to ask question
2075 2013-04-01 15:53:43 <jgarzik> s
2076 2013-04-01 15:54:05 <sipa> jgarzik: ok, a suggestion about what to use, and where i can read about that? :)
2077 2013-04-01 15:54:26 <TD> scons used to be semi-popular. not sure if it still is
2078 2013-04-01 15:54:28 <jgarzik> sipa: Here's one of my projects, that distributed a library, with all that entails: https://github.com/jgarzik/hail/
2079 2013-04-01 15:54:42 <jgarzik> sipa: you create configure.ac in root dir, and Makefile.am describing build targets in each subdir
2080 2013-04-01 15:55:10 <jgarzik> sipa: I typically google for "autoconf table of contents" and "automake table of contents" for the respective GNU manuals
2081 2013-04-01 15:55:19 <jgarzik> *distributes
2082 2013-04-01 15:55:59 <jgarzik> sipa: plenty of other build systems.  autotools is old and grotty and a pile of scripts and macros....  but it is widely supported and instantly grok-able by most platforms' package management systems.
2083 2013-04-01 15:56:22 <jgarzik> You get straightforward cross-compiles, srcdir != builddir, test harness, other stuff
2084 2013-04-01 15:56:32 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2085 2013-04-01 15:57:05 i2pRelay has joined
2086 2013-04-01 15:57:16 <wumpus> cmake is also quite popular
2087 2013-04-01 15:57:25 manet has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2088 2013-04-01 15:57:58 Perdos has joined
2089 2013-04-01 15:58:00 <wumpus> as it can generate build scripts for windows and mac compilers as well as makefiles
2090 2013-04-01 15:58:19 drapetomano_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2091 2013-04-01 15:59:15 <sipa> what i need (for now...), check for yasm+x86_64, check whether compiler supports __int128, check whether gmp and/or openssl are available, and build a test/benchtool or static library
2092 2013-04-01 15:59:28 <TD> probably autotools is the right way to go then
2093 2013-04-01 15:59:37 <k9quaint> well played Luke
2094 2013-04-01 15:59:39 <TD> it specializes in random stuff like "does compiler barf with particular feature x"
2095 2013-04-01 16:00:02 <sipa> those are pretty easy to check, i'd say... just try building a piece of code
2096 2013-04-01 16:00:11 <TD> yes. autoconf has pre-canned macros to do it all
2097 2013-04-01 16:00:15 <TD> you just provide a snippet of code
2098 2013-04-01 16:00:15 <sipa> right
2099 2013-04-01 16:01:34 <sipa> i see
2100 2013-04-01 16:02:16 <jgarzik> sipa: https://github.com/jgarzik/cpuminer/ checks for yasm
2101 2013-04-01 16:02:24 <jgarzik> and compiles under windows, via mingw
2102 2013-04-01 16:02:51 <jgarzik> it was trivial, too:  mingw32-configure did all the heavy lifting, to set up linux->win32 cross compile.
2103 2013-04-01 16:02:59 <sipa> well, for now you either need yasm+x86_64, or __int128 support... so no 32-bit platforms supported anyway
2104 2013-04-01 16:03:13 <jgarzik> s/mingw32/mingw64/ done
2105 2013-04-01 16:03:28 <> _STIMPY_|!~doddy@5ac82b64.bb.sky.com|[anyone] what is the incentive for users to keep their clients running?
2106 2013-04-01 16:03:46 <wumpus> because starting it up is slow :p
2107 2013-04-01 16:03:54 <sipa> |_STIMPY_|: because having a global decentralized payment system is valuable
2108 2013-04-01 16:03:54 <helo> |_STIMPY_|: #bitcoin please
2109 2013-04-01 16:04:36 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2110 2013-04-01 16:05:07 i2pRelay has joined
2111 2013-04-01 16:05:29 nomailin1 has joined
2112 2013-04-01 16:06:26 <> _STIMPY_|!~doddy@5ac82b64.bb.sky.com|[helo] hmmm. They are unlikely to be interested in the client incentives I'm thinking about
2113 2013-04-01 16:06:56 sydna has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2114 2013-04-01 16:08:17 <rlifchitz> ;;bc,help
2115 2013-04-01 16:08:17 <gribble> Alias bc,bear, Alias bc,bitpenny, Alias bc,blocks, Alias bc,btcguild, Alias bc,calc, Alias bc,convert, Alias bc,deepbit, Alias bc,eligius, Alias bc,fx, Alias bc,gen, Alias bc,help, Alias bc,intersango, Alias bc,interval, Alias bc,mktcap, Alias bc,ozcoin, Alias bc,p2pool, Alias bc,p2poolalt, Alias bc,p2pooldiff, Alias bc,price, Alias bc,slushpool, Alias bc,stats, Alias bc,tblb, Alias (1 more message)
2116 2013-04-01 16:08:18 <helo> incentives have been discussed before... last i recall, the response is "if bitcoin requires incentives for people to run full nodes, bitcoin will probably fail either way"
2117 2013-04-01 16:08:41 <rlifchitz> ;;bc,gen 340
2118 2013-04-01 16:08:41 <gribble> use the 'genrate' command instead
2119 2013-04-01 16:08:45 <rlifchitz> ;;bc,genrate 340
2120 2013-04-01 16:08:46 <gribble> Error: "bc,genrate" is not a valid command.
2121 2013-04-01 16:08:48 orblivion has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2122 2013-04-01 16:08:50 <helo> rlifchitz: #bitcoin please
2123 2013-04-01 16:09:07 <rlifchitz> ok thx
2124 2013-04-01 16:09:49 nomailin1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2125 2013-04-01 16:12:37 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2126 2013-04-01 16:12:52 <> _STIMPY_|!~doddy@5ac82b64.bb.sky.com|[helo] [helo] sorry if it's been discussed before. Just very concerend over the 51% hashing if it relies incentivised miners and goodwill of users
2127 2013-04-01 16:13:08 i2pRelay has joined
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2129 2013-04-01 16:13:48 Optimus-Prime has joined
2130 2013-04-01 16:14:00 <ErnestoJuarell> Does anyone here build/debug bitcoin-qt on Windows?
2131 2013-04-01 16:14:32 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2132 2013-04-01 16:14:48 lenny__ has joined
2133 2013-04-01 16:14:51 <> _STIMPY_|!~doddy@5ac82b64.bb.sky.com|[ErnestoJuarell] I've just built the libBitcoin on windows 64
2134 2013-04-01 16:15:27 <sipa> ErnestoJuarell: Diapolo does, but even he's unable to make binaries that can be used by others
2135 2013-04-01 16:15:49 <sipa> ErnestoJuarell: however, if you manage to get it working, patches very welcome
2136 2013-04-01 16:16:23 <lenny__> has anyone expermented with using CUDA to improve hashing for nvida cards? or is this not even possible?
2137 2013-04-01 16:16:36 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
2138 2013-04-01 16:16:42 <ErnestoJuarell> I really just want to debug using an IDE debugger
2139 2013-04-01 16:16:55 <wumpus> lenny__: yes, many people have done that
2140 2013-04-01 16:17:06 orblivion has joined
2141 2013-04-01 16:17:06 <wumpus> ErnestoJuarell: it's possible in qt creator, but you should ask diapolo how
2142 2013-04-01 16:17:26 <ErnestoJuarell> What about on linux. Can it be done with Eclipse/codeblocks?
2143 2013-04-01 16:17:42 <wumpus> probably
2144 2013-04-01 16:18:08 <wumpus> but qt creator is easiest, as it understands .pro files
2145 2013-04-01 16:18:34 <wumpus> and you can edit the dialogs and forms in it directly
2146 2013-04-01 16:18:58 cryptorific has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2147 2013-04-01 16:20:08 <Cryo> *Utopian one-world internet currency neo-cypherpunk MtGox Bitcoin Lords look just like you would expect
2148 2013-04-01 16:20:19 <Cryo> http://www.theverge.com/2013/4/1/4154500/mt-gox-barons-of-bitcoin
2149 2013-04-01 16:20:26 <Cryo> cute.
2150 2013-04-01 16:20:40 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2151 2013-04-01 16:21:05 <Cryo> I like the sound of utopian neo-cypherpunk bitcoin lords... I'll name my band that.
2152 2013-04-01 16:21:15 i2pRelay has joined
2153 2013-04-01 16:21:17 <donpdonp> Cryo: woah, two white dudes
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2157 2013-04-01 16:23:54 <TD> wow
2158 2013-04-01 16:23:57 <TD> mt gox has 18 employees already
2159 2013-04-01 16:24:08 ErnestoJuarell has left ("switching os")
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2161 2013-04-01 16:25:28 <BlueMatt> TD: just saw that, yea
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2166 2013-04-01 16:27:02 <tockitj> wish someone went off to investigate who nakamoto satoshi is (:
2167 2013-04-01 16:28:24 <Belxjander> tockitj: who cares?
2168 2013-04-01 16:28:37 <donpdonp> ^^
2169 2013-04-01 16:28:43 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2170 2013-04-01 16:29:00 <donpdonp> the bitcoin dev team can form-up like voltron into nakamoto satoshi.
2171 2013-04-01 16:29:01 <tockitj> well.. it might be a good story
2172 2013-04-01 16:29:08 _anon has joined
2173 2013-04-01 16:29:11 <tockitj> journalists should care
2174 2013-04-01 16:29:18 <tockitj> hah
2175 2013-04-01 16:29:31 <tockitj> nakamoto satoshi is voltron! :D
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2182 2013-04-01 16:35:25 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
2183 2013-04-01 16:35:29 lyra77 has joined
2184 2013-04-01 16:35:31 <lyra77> http://xteensx.info/young-amateur-czech-couple-very-hot-sex-scene/
2185 2013-04-01 16:35:37 lyra77 has quit (Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.)))
2186 2013-04-01 16:35:41 arij has joined
2187 2013-04-01 16:35:58 <arij> hello
2188 2013-04-01 16:36:39 cyphurnz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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2190 2013-04-01 16:37:11 Tritonio has joined
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2192 2013-04-01 16:37:56 <arij> when the transactions are logged on the network, are people identified by an IP address, or some other random number?
2193 2013-04-01 16:38:14 <MC1984> no ip addresses
2194 2013-04-01 16:38:22 <MC1984> public keys
2195 2013-04-01 16:38:38 <MC1984> well hashed pubkeys which are btc addresses
2196 2013-04-01 16:38:55 <arij> when is an ip broadcasted?
2197 2013-04-01 16:39:06 <arij> when the transaction is relayed by a node?
2198 2013-04-01 16:40:12 sanchaz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2199 2013-04-01 16:40:17 ErnestoJuarell has joined
2200 2013-04-01 16:40:19 <MC1984> no ips are broadcasted.....
2201 2013-04-01 16:40:44 <MC1984> when you broadcast a txn, you just spit it at the nodes youre connected to
2202 2013-04-01 16:40:52 <MC1984> its a flood network
2203 2013-04-01 16:40:58 <arij> alright
2204 2013-04-01 16:41:18 <arij> the node ips are public, no?
2205 2013-04-01 16:41:29 <MC1984> yes
2206 2013-04-01 16:41:36 cyphurnz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2207 2013-04-01 16:41:41 <arij> and the node can be any bitcoin wallet
2208 2013-04-01 16:41:42 <arij> ?
2209 2013-04-01 16:41:48 <arij> or bitcoind
2210 2013-04-01 16:42:02 sanchaz has joined
2211 2013-04-01 16:42:02 <MC1984> anything that talks to the actual p2p
2212 2013-04-01 16:42:05 <arij> i see
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2216 2013-04-01 16:43:29 <jchp> arij: there are people out there that try to connect to all bitcoin nodes to detect origination/iptracking of transactions
2217 2013-04-01 16:43:43 <jchp> i believe blockchain.info does something like that
2218 2013-04-01 16:44:13 <arij> a good friend of mine is writing a paper on bitcoin (likely to get published) i just dont want to give him any incorrectinformation
2219 2013-04-01 16:44:13 <MC1984> its unreliable as fuck
2220 2013-04-01 16:44:37 <MC1984> ips are boradcasted around as part of peer discovery
2221 2013-04-01 16:44:45 <MC1984> but its nothing to do with txns
2222 2013-04-01 16:45:11 <MC1984> arij wiki.bitcoin.it
2223 2013-04-01 16:45:24 kadoban has joined
2224 2013-04-01 16:45:25 <arij> i have the wiki open :)
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2230 2013-04-01 16:49:18 <MC1984> what the fuck is going on with BFL
2231 2013-04-01 16:49:21 <MC1984> they shipped but they didnt...
2232 2013-04-01 16:49:50 <sipa> they sent one unit to luke
2233 2013-04-01 16:50:02 <sipa> apart from that, not yet shipping
2234 2013-04-01 16:50:31 <_dr> sipa: did they?
2235 2013-04-01 16:50:33 <MC1984> he doesnt have it apparently
2236 2013-04-01 16:50:46 <arij> im going to ask him to come in here
2237 2013-04-01 16:50:51 <MC1984> suspect pictures
2238 2013-04-01 16:50:57 <arij> i hope some of you could help him out :)
2239 2013-04-01 16:50:57 <sipa> oh? have i been april's fooled?
2240 2013-04-01 16:51:38 <_dr> sipa: apparently we all were. but nothing's certain yet
2241 2013-04-01 16:51:56 <Luke-Jr> I've received possession of a unit.
2242 2013-04-01 16:51:57 <_dr> however, some folks on reddit claim that the setup shown in the images is exactly the same as in previous images, which were taken at bfl
2243 2013-04-01 16:52:07 <_dr> also, it seems the images have Josh as owner in metadata
2244 2013-04-01 16:52:22 Graet has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2245 2013-04-01 16:52:25 <Luke-Jr> yes, Josh took the pics I posted
2246 2013-04-01 16:52:42 <Luke-Jr> when I clean up my desk and get it set up nicely here, I'll take some pics of my own
2247 2013-04-01 16:52:58 <Luke-Jr> some people just wanted pics of it running for some reason
2248 2013-04-01 16:53:00 thejoey has joined
2249 2013-04-01 16:53:01 <Luke-Jr> so I obliged
2250 2013-04-01 16:53:03 <sipa> Luke-Jr: but it's hashin' ?
2251 2013-04-01 16:53:13 <Luke-Jr> sipa: not at full speed - yet
2252 2013-04-01 16:53:18 <Luke-Jr> got it up to 25 Gh/s
2253 2013-04-01 16:53:23 thejoey is now known as Guest2055
2254 2013-04-01 16:53:29 <sipa> why not more?
2255 2013-04-01 16:53:29 <Luke-Jr> stupid USB latency
2256 2013-04-01 16:53:35 <sipa> oh
2257 2013-04-01 16:53:50 <sipa> and power consumption at that hashrate?
2258 2013-04-01 16:53:55 <MC1984> what about the power window
2259 2013-04-01 16:54:03 <Luke-Jr> huge, that's what's defective about this unit
2260 2013-04-01 16:54:13 <MC1984> looks like it miseed 1gh watt by miles
2261 2013-04-01 16:54:18 <Luke-Jr> they're remaking all the boards for the batch shipments
2262 2013-04-01 16:54:24 <Luke-Jr> to fix it
2263 2013-04-01 16:54:40 <_dr> seems they might make the november deadline after all
2264 2013-04-01 16:54:45 brson has joined
2265 2013-04-01 16:54:53 <MC1984> so you went to go pick it up an brought it back?
2266 2013-04-01 16:54:54 <sipa> #define huge
2267 2013-04-01 16:55:25 <Luke-Jr> sipa: Josh's measurement tool said 179
2268 2013-04-01 16:55:28 <Luke-Jr> I don't have one myself
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2271 2013-04-01 16:57:13 <MC1984> sounds like BFL are gonna have to get through a few board/chip revisions before it all smoothes out at any rate
2272 2013-04-01 16:57:27 <MC1984> someone else can be the early adopter :p
2273 2013-04-01 16:58:50 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2275 2013-04-01 16:59:17 <_dr> i wonder whether people actually would have cared
2276 2013-04-01 16:59:32 Optimus-Prime has quit (Quit: Optimus-Prime)
2277 2013-04-01 16:59:50 <_dr> or was the power screw-up so huge the units were unusable?
2278 2013-04-01 17:00:30 discrete has joined
2279 2013-04-01 17:01:03 <Luke-Jr> _dr: well, if I'm not careful I can probably blow the PSU on this one or something
2280 2013-04-01 17:01:07 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2281 2013-04-01 17:01:34 <MC1984> "I swear to god I'm going to pull apart my order and there better be the correct number of chips in my device or so help me god the BTC it produces is going to help me fly out to Kansas, rent a car, go to their offices and inject my size 12 directly up their candy ass!!!"
2282 2013-04-01 17:01:38 <MC1984> oh forums lol
2283 2013-04-01 17:02:15 ocminer has quit (Quit: ocminer)
2284 2013-04-01 17:02:17 <_dr> Luke-Jr: well, more btc for you :)
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2303 2013-04-01 17:11:39 <johnsoft> you guys will love this
2304 2013-04-01 17:11:46 <johnsoft> https://www.bit-trader.net/mt-gox-to-accept-litecoin-virtual-currency/
2305 2013-04-01 17:12:22 <gmaxwell> lame april fools is lame
2306 2013-04-01 17:13:13 ocminer_ has joined
2307 2013-04-01 17:13:28 <TD> except the url they've given works
2308 2013-04-01 17:13:34 <TD> so maybe not
2309 2013-04-01 17:13:50 <TD> does anyone have a theory for white litecoin has value?
2310 2013-04-01 17:13:52 Belxjander has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2311 2013-04-01 17:14:10 <sipa> TD: underdog feelings from some?
2312 2013-04-01 17:14:17 ocminer has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2313 2013-04-01 17:14:19 <ErnestoJuarell> same reason btc does
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2315 2013-04-01 17:14:37 <TD> well, btc has value because it's fundamentally new and different to other currencies, it has momentum, etc
2316 2013-04-01 17:14:55 <TD> ltc isn't fundamentally different to bitcoin. so if i have some dollars and want to acquire some crypto-currency, why would i buy litecoin instead of bitcoin?
2317 2013-04-01 17:15:14 <ErnestoJuarell> I like their claim of it being "silver" to Bitcoin's gold
2318 2013-04-01 17:15:16 <johnsoft> litecoin has a thriving ecosystem
2319 2013-04-01 17:15:17 <sipa> i assume most ltc traders also have bitcoin
2320 2013-04-01 17:15:21 <gmaxwell> TD: because you want to make sure your coin is not widely accepted.
2321 2013-04-01 17:15:23 ocminer has joined
2322 2013-04-01 17:15:26 <johnsoft> supported by services such as litespend and liteinstant
2323 2013-04-01 17:15:34 ocminer has quit (Client Quit)
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2327 2013-04-01 17:16:22 <TD> ErnestoJuarell: but what is that claim based on?
2328 2013-04-01 17:16:35 <TD> ErnestoJuarell: why would one want silver, if gold was just as easy to obtain and use?
2329 2013-04-01 17:16:37 <ErnestoJuarell> Is it safe to symlink the blockchain from Windows to a linux partition for use with bitcoin-qt?
2330 2013-04-01 17:16:44 <redeeman> TD, read their frontpage, they claim its nicer for smaller trades since its faster
2331 2013-04-01 17:17:11 <gmaxwell> redeeman: it's actually considerably slower to obtain equal security.
2332 2013-04-01 17:17:12 <TD> i read it. they have a 2.5 minute block time target instead of 10 minute.
2333 2013-04-01 17:17:36 <redeeman> gmaxwell, i wouldnt know, passing on what litecoin page says
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2335 2013-04-01 17:18:00 <TD> however, i'm not sure that makes a big difference. the difference between "instant" and "not instant" is fairly significant, once you go above "not instant", 5 vs 10 minutes is neither here nor there, really
2336 2013-04-01 17:18:02 <ErnestoJuarell> I hope it takes off and SatoshiDice switches to spamming their blockchain instead of Bitcoin
2337 2013-04-01 17:18:39 <gmaxwell> (which is doubly concerning considering that the software doesn't get much TLC)
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2339 2013-04-01 17:19:15 <MC1984> this was discussed a few hours ago
2340 2013-04-01 17:19:18 ocminer has joined
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2342 2013-04-01 17:19:40 <TD> gmaxwell: does it need it? surely it's just a few patches on top of a rebased bitcoin
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2344 2013-04-01 17:20:46 <gmaxwell> TD: it hasn't been getting even that much... and it's not quite that simple: we have softforking changes which must be staged. If you just drop them in live bad things will happen.
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2397 2013-04-01 17:46:46 <_dr> litcoin might see a boost due to price/hash
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2402 2013-04-01 17:47:21 <_dr> which seems to have become too low for btc/gpu
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2411 2013-04-01 17:49:55 <jchp> it's a better deal to mine ltc and convert to btc http://dustcoin.com/mining (bonus: more people doing this depresses the price of ltc)
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2450 2013-04-01 18:09:36 <toffoo> has there been any formal bug report logged for the crashing/db corruption issue with v0.8.1 on Mac?  where would I look to check?
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2468 2013-04-01 18:27:02 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
2469 2013-04-01 18:27:16 <ErnestoJuarell> github?
2470 2013-04-01 18:28:12 <ErnestoJuarell> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues
2471 2013-04-01 18:28:31 graingert_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2472 2013-04-01 18:29:11 <toffoo> yup, looks like that's it, thanks    https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2435
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2474 2013-04-01 18:31:32 i2pRelay has joined
2475 2013-04-01 18:33:42 <toffoo> can I downgrade to v0.7.2 until this is fixed?  can I use my current wallet.dat with a restored v0.7.2 binary/blockchain from backup?
2476 2013-04-01 18:34:19 <MC1984> th wallet has not changed
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2482 2013-04-01 18:36:18 <toffoo> ok thnx.  I think I'm gonna do it.  I've crashed and had to reindex 5 times now and this is very much impeding my ability to use bitcoins reliably.  unless a fix is coming muy pronto?
2483 2013-04-01 18:36:21 paybitcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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2486 2013-04-01 18:37:24 Pelanor is now known as Pel
2487 2013-04-01 18:37:34 Pel is now known as Pelanor
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2489 2013-04-01 18:39:04 <sipa> toffoo: anything peculiar about your setup at all?
2490 2013-04-01 18:39:20 <sipa> toffoo: can you put your entire debug.log somewhere?
2491 2013-04-01 18:39:26 <sipa> i'd like to see it
2492 2013-04-01 18:39:33 i2pRelay has joined
2493 2013-04-01 18:39:46 <sipa> but i fear we won't find anything but somehow the data randomly corrupts
2494 2013-04-01 18:41:22 Thepok2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2498 2013-04-01 18:42:18 evilmax has quit ()
2499 2013-04-01 18:44:26 <toffoo> sipa: only thing out of the ordinary is I run it on a Mac with (OS-level) full disk encryption
2500 2013-04-01 18:44:46 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
2501 2013-04-01 18:44:50 <toffoo> but seems others have experienced the same problems
2502 2013-04-01 18:45:37 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2503 2013-04-01 18:46:40 <toffoo> to my untrained eyes, the only thing I've seen in the debug.logs is:
2504 2013-04-01 18:46:44 <toffoo> "LevelDB read failure: Corruption: block checksum mismatch"
2505 2013-04-01 18:46:47 <toffoo> and:
2506 2013-04-01 18:46:57 <toffoo> "*** System error: Database corrupted"
2507 2013-04-01 18:47:06 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2508 2013-04-01 18:47:13 <toffoo> but if you like I can pastebin a more complete chunk of it?
2509 2013-04-01 18:47:23 <BlueMatt> TD: re: not merging native wrapper: I dont know how stable sipa compares the verifyer, and even if its considered stable, I would still argue that it shouldn't be merged into bitcoinj as its a weird dep to put in bitcoinj.  Plus because its optional...
2510 2013-04-01 18:47:35 i2pRelay has joined
2511 2013-04-01 18:47:47 <TD> i'd be happy to let people select, so they can stay pure java if they want
2512 2013-04-01 18:47:57 <TD> but i'd rather ship it so it works the best it can do out of the box
2513 2013-04-01 18:48:07 <TD> of course, re-using sipas code makes it less diverse again :)
2514 2013-04-01 18:48:20 X-Scale has joined
2515 2013-04-01 18:48:37 <BlueMatt> well bitcoind doesnt (currently) use sipa's code
2516 2013-04-01 18:48:45 <BlueMatt> plus there are three versions to chose from in sipa's code
2517 2013-04-01 18:48:49 <sipa> i'm not sure i like it being in production anywhere
2518 2013-04-01 18:49:02 <sipa> indeed, especially since there are some optional parts
2519 2013-04-01 18:49:19 <sipa> i have some high-level unit tests, but there can be subtle bugs
2520 2013-04-01 18:49:42 <BlueMatt> ok, then no rush
2521 2013-04-01 18:50:05 <sipa> like for example, it accepts any signature encoding the in main/testnet chain right now, including several non-DER variations that OpenSSL allows, but it's hard to know for sure
2522 2013-04-01 18:50:15 <BlueMatt> TD: in that case, ACK on all the "dont merge yet" comments
2523 2013-04-01 18:50:30 abadr has quit (Quit: abadr)
2524 2013-04-01 18:50:48 <BlueMatt> sipa: a "as bitcoind does it" version would be cool :P
2525 2013-04-01 18:50:59 <sipa> how do you mean?
2526 2013-04-01 18:51:30 <BlueMatt> does the openssl version work exactly as bitcoind does it?
2527 2013-04-01 18:51:37 <BlueMatt> +/- hal's patch
2528 2013-04-01 18:52:04 <sipa> no the "openssl version" is just using openssl's bignum library
2529 2013-04-01 18:52:08 <sipa> for some operations
2530 2013-04-01 18:52:17 <BlueMatt> yea, I was suggesting one that uses openssl's secp256k1
2531 2013-04-01 18:52:20 <sipa> but parsing/encoding is implemented directly
2532 2013-04-01 18:52:28 <sipa> why would you want that?
2533 2013-04-01 18:52:31 <BlueMatt> for those who want bitcoinj to run exactly as bitcoind does for sigs
2534 2013-04-01 18:52:39 Lefont has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2535 2013-04-01 18:52:52 <sipa> well i'm sure you can just use openssl?
2536 2013-04-01 18:53:03 <BlueMatt> more difficult api though...
2537 2013-04-01 18:53:32 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2538 2013-04-01 18:53:55 <sipa> meh, the entire idea was to get rid of OpenSSL :)
2539 2013-04-01 18:54:02 johnsoft1 has joined
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2541 2013-04-01 18:55:19 <BlueMatt> I know, I was just talking.  For anyone who wants to use a native library in bitcoinj in production
2542 2013-04-01 18:55:19 graingert_ has joined
2543 2013-04-01 18:55:33 stretchwarren has joined
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2546 2013-04-01 18:58:13 <TD> saivann: ping
2547 2013-04-01 19:00:38 james713 has joined
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2550 2013-04-01 19:03:42 i2pRelay has joined
2551 2013-04-01 19:03:50 <TD> does anyone know a good graphics designer?
2552 2013-04-01 19:04:03 <TD> i have a toy on the side project - want to experiment with making a super sexy animated wallet ui
2553 2013-04-01 19:04:23 <TD> i have some basic sketches of how i imagine the ui being, but need someone with design ability to make some proper mockups
2554 2013-04-01 19:04:33 mappum has joined
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2563 2013-04-01 19:15:32 <BlueMatt> lol, systemd wrote their own libc for april 1, also "We can add a kernel later on"
2564 2013-04-01 19:15:57 <sipa> yeah, we should do the same
2565 2013-04-01 19:16:20 <BlueMatt> I still think a kernel module providing /dev/bitcoin is a good idea
2566 2013-04-01 19:16:30 <sipa> i think you're looking at this the wrong way
2567 2013-04-01 19:16:36 <sipa> bitcoin should run on the raw hardware
2568 2013-04-01 19:16:44 <sipa> and it can load linux as a module
2569 2013-04-01 19:17:09 <BlueMatt> good point, that way we dont have to worry about wallet-stealing trojans - we are the rootkit, cant rootkit us!
2570 2013-04-01 19:17:20 <sipa> every syscall will require PoW
2571 2013-04-01 19:18:22 <BlueMatt> haha
2572 2013-04-01 19:19:14 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2573 2013-04-01 19:19:46 i2pRelay has joined
2574 2013-04-01 19:20:14 <BlueMatt> heh, poettering's email is pretty good too
2575 2013-04-01 19:20:31 MobPhone has joined
2576 2013-04-01 19:20:44 rdymac has joined
2577 2013-04-01 19:20:53 <sipa> ?
2578 2013-04-01 19:20:59 <BlueMatt> http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2013-March/010062.html
2579 2013-04-01 19:21:07 techlife has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2580 2013-04-01 19:21:49 <BlueMatt> "We hope to have something workable by systemd 205 or so"..."we expect that our friends from ArchLinux will port their distribution over by systemd 204 already"
2581 2013-04-01 19:23:11 rdymac has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2582 2013-04-01 19:23:13 <sipa> haha "following the GNU/Hurd’s successful
2583 2013-04-01 19:23:14 <sipa> approach."
2584 2013-04-01 19:23:26 bernard75 has joined
2585 2013-04-01 19:23:33 ThomasV has joined
2586 2013-04-01 19:23:57 ovidiusoft has joined
2587 2013-04-01 19:24:38 Goonie has joined
2588 2013-04-01 19:25:36 <Goonie> I just rolled a beta of Bitcoin Wallet 3.0 - who would like to help testing?
2589 2013-04-01 19:25:38 <Goonie> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=150588.msg1716462#msg1716462
2590 2013-04-01 19:26:00 manet has joined
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2595 2013-04-01 19:27:58 <aceat64> Goonie: got a changelog?
2596 2013-04-01 19:28:36 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
2597 2013-04-01 19:29:14 <Goonie> sure: http://bitcoin-wallet.googlecode.com/git-history/bitcoinj-0.8/wallet/CHANGES
2598 2013-04-01 19:29:29 <aceat64> cool, I'll probably try it out over lunch :)
2599 2013-04-01 19:31:18 <skinnkavaj> http://blockchain.info/charts/blocks-size?timespan=30days&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=
2600 2013-04-01 19:31:22 <skinnkavaj> what is happening?
2601 2013-04-01 19:31:28 <skinnkavaj> is this something we should be worried about?
2602 2013-04-01 19:31:47 discrete has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2603 2013-04-01 19:32:54 Thepok has joined
2604 2013-04-01 19:33:05 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: "don't believe what you see on blockchain.info"
2605 2013-04-01 19:33:30 <ThomasV> lol
2606 2013-04-01 19:33:45 TD has joined
2607 2013-04-01 19:33:56 <ThomasV> "blockchain size follows bitcoin price surge"
2608 2013-04-01 19:34:23 mercerist has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2609 2013-04-01 19:34:24 <sipa> Goonie: installed
2610 2013-04-01 19:35:02 jspilman has joined
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2615 2013-04-01 19:38:19 discrete has joined
2616 2013-04-01 19:39:04 <graingert_> gmaxwell: still looks scary
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2618 2013-04-01 19:43:20 <MC1984> Goonie got a testnet version of that?
2619 2013-04-01 19:43:34 nomailin1 has joined
2620 2013-04-01 19:43:34 <sipa> MC1984: he does
2621 2013-04-01 19:43:40 nomailin1 has quit (Client Quit)
2622 2013-04-01 19:44:05 mercerist has joined
2623 2013-04-01 19:44:19 <MC1984> of the beta?
2624 2013-04-01 19:44:27 Masterzman has joined
2625 2013-04-01 19:44:31 <sipa> yes
2626 2013-04-01 19:44:43 <sipa> go to the download page, there's a 3.0-test version
2627 2013-04-01 19:44:57 <MC1984> oh i should read web pages first
2628 2013-04-01 19:45:14 <MC1984> where is the actual wallet stored on android so i can backup
2629 2013-04-01 19:45:20 <Luke-Jr> Goonie: why does your Bitcoin Wallet promote the "from" address myth⁈
2630 2013-04-01 19:45:22 <Goonie> nice that someone is asking for a testnet version
2631 2013-04-01 19:45:32 <sipa> agree with Luke-Jr here
2632 2013-04-01 19:45:42 <Luke-Jr> Goonie: and encourage address reuse it seems
2633 2013-04-01 19:45:52 <Goonie> MC1984: its in internal storage. http://bitcoin-wallet.googlecode.com/git/wallet/README
2634 2013-04-01 19:46:05 Perdos has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2635 2013-04-01 19:46:30 <Goonie> MC1984: In the testnet version, you can just adb pull it (its world readable), in the prodnet version there is a backup option in the app.
2636 2013-04-01 19:46:58 <MC1984> rooted so ill just copy it to the sd card
2637 2013-04-01 19:47:06 discrete has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2638 2013-04-01 19:47:14 <HM> thank heavens for type traits
2639 2013-04-01 19:47:25 <Goonie> Luke-Jr: I think the answer is because we don't have HD wallets yet. And backups were not available for a long time
2640 2013-04-01 19:47:42 discrete has joined
2641 2013-04-01 19:48:06 <Luke-Jr> Goonie: I don't see how that has anything to do with "from" address myth, at least :/
2642 2013-04-01 19:48:59 <TD> really, transactions themselves should have labels
2643 2013-04-01 19:49:10 * sipa does the payment protocol dance
2644 2013-04-01 19:49:13 <Goonie> Luke-Jr: well if you always display the same to address (because you only have that one), you can just as well use that space for something else (e.g. the from address :-).
2645 2013-04-01 19:49:22 <MC1984> welp theres a lot of key-backup files in hee
2646 2013-04-01 19:49:40 <Goonie> That said, I'm planning to change that.
2647 2013-04-01 19:49:45 <TD> Goonie: in future the way things are labelled will need to change. showing addresses in the ui nearly never makes sense
2648 2013-04-01 19:49:47 Namworld has joined
2649 2013-04-01 19:49:49 <Luke-Jr> TD: they do! every transaction uses a unique address
2650 2013-04-01 19:50:06 lmacken_ is now known as lmacken
2651 2013-04-01 19:50:09 <Luke-Jr> Goonie: there is no from address
2652 2013-04-01 19:50:15 lmacken has quit (Changing host)
2653 2013-04-01 19:50:15 lmacken has joined
2654 2013-04-01 19:50:15 <TD> Luke-Jr: yeah, unfortunately, not in bitcoinj apps at the moment. there's no equivalent of the keypool and HD wallets weren't integrated yet.
2655 2013-04-01 19:50:26 <TD> Luke-Jr: so you can manually add addresses, but most people don't
2656 2013-04-01 19:50:27 discrete has quit (Client Quit)
2657 2013-04-01 19:50:39 <Goonie> Luke-Jr: I know.
2658 2013-04-01 19:50:40 <TD> once sipa is happy with the HD wallets spec, i guess we'll merge in one of the implemenations.
2659 2013-04-01 19:50:41 <Luke-Jr> -.-
2660 2013-04-01 19:50:44 <TD> it'll be a fair bit of work
2661 2013-04-01 19:50:54 <sipa> Goonie: meh, i'd prefer nothing over promoting the "from address", but i'm sure you'll get complaints "hey, the new version doesn't show the from address anymore!" and situations like xkcd 118=72
2662 2013-04-01 19:51:00 <TD> but it seems better to just wait around for that than do a keypool and everything it requires, and then later switch to hd wallet
2663 2013-04-01 19:51:04 * Luke-Jr very disappoint in Android Bitcoin Wallet as it is today
2664 2013-04-01 19:51:12 <Luke-Jr> I thought it was much better than this XD
2665 2013-04-01 19:51:26 <sipa> eh, xkcd 1172
2666 2013-04-01 19:51:33 <Luke-Jr> TD: I agree with sipa, that it'd be better to show nothing at all
2667 2013-04-01 19:51:52 <MC1984> does this install over my wallet from google play
2668 2013-04-01 19:52:20 <Luke-Jr> MC1984: no
2669 2013-04-01 19:52:31 <Luke-Jr> err, I'm assuming you mean Google Wallet
2670 2013-04-01 19:52:40 <TD> MC1984: yes it upgrades the version you have
2671 2013-04-01 19:52:41 <Luke-Jr> TD: why is Google Wallet not bitcoin-based? :/
2672 2013-04-01 19:52:54 <Goonie> lol
2673 2013-04-01 19:52:56 <TD> because the team is afraid of disappointing Luke-Jr
2674 2013-04-01 19:52:59 <sipa> haha
2675 2013-04-01 19:53:08 <Luke-Jr> TD: USD is very disappointing!
2676 2013-04-01 19:53:18 <TD> dollars don't even have from addresses at all!
2677 2013-04-01 19:53:18 <ThomasV> is the HD wallet spec final yet?
2678 2013-04-01 19:53:26 <Luke-Jr> TD: neither do bitcoins!
2679 2013-04-01 19:53:31 <ThomasV> I mean bip 32
2680 2013-04-01 19:53:47 coinners has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2681 2013-04-01 19:54:29 <sipa> ThomasV: if not for the annoying "public extended parent + private child == everything" problem, i'd call it final
2682 2013-04-01 19:54:35 lenny__ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2683 2013-04-01 19:54:53 <TD> perfect, meet good
2684 2013-04-01 19:54:54 <ThomasV> what is that problem?
2685 2013-04-01 19:54:58 <TD> i think you two will get on brilliantly
2686 2013-04-01 19:55:01 tyn has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2687 2013-04-01 19:55:11 <jspilman> Question about a maintaining anonymity with P2SH addresses. If you have payer and payee using 2-of-2 multisig with P2SH, if you reuse the pubKeys to add new funds, or return change funds to the escrow, you lose anonymity.  Obviously standard is to just use new pubkeys from payer/payee each time, so P2SH hash160 changes.  What about using a random salt value instead of OP_0 in the redeemScript?
2688 2013-04-01 19:55:11 <jspilman> From what I can tell, as long as it's a pushData OP, it will be accepted as a standard transaction type. Obviously you have to save the salt.  You could make it deterministic, so you just have to save 3 values total -- baseSalt, and the two pubKeys. Thoughts?
2689 2013-04-01 19:55:16 <sipa> Dan Boneh came up with a solution, but it requires a different signing mechanism with 640-byte signatures :p
2690 2013-04-01 19:55:34 <sipa> when i told him that won't be usable in practice, he didn't answer anymore :(
2691 2013-04-01 19:55:40 mouseofthesteppe has joined
2692 2013-04-01 19:55:44 tyn has joined
2693 2013-04-01 19:55:46 <MC1984>  export/import encrypted private key backups to/from mail or online storage
2694 2013-04-01 19:55:49 <MC1984> hmm is that wise
2695 2013-04-01 19:55:58 <ThomasV> sipa: you mean the fact that a single private child can compromise other keys?
2696 2013-04-01 19:56:20 <Goonie> MC1984: wise for real or ironically?
2697 2013-04-01 19:56:26 <TD> MC1984: why wouldn't it be
2698 2013-04-01 19:56:32 <sipa> ThomasV: yes, if you have a parent extended public key, and know *any* private key (even without chaincode) derived from it, you know everything
2699 2013-04-01 19:56:43 <MC1984> private keys flaoting around email accounts and stuff?
2700 2013-04-01 19:56:48 <MC1984> oh are they encrypted
2701 2013-04-01 19:57:08 <TD> what did you just paste into the channel? :)
2702 2013-04-01 19:57:12 <TD> MC1984:  export/import encrypted private key backups to/from mail or online storage
2703 2013-04-01 19:57:27 <MC1984> fuck
2704 2013-04-01 19:57:28 <TD> that said, unencrypted backups are useful too
2705 2013-04-01 19:57:40 <ThomasV> sipa: I didn't know that a solution could be found to that
2706 2013-04-01 19:57:47 <TD> you might not be storing a lot of value there and the risk of forgetting the password is higher than the risk of getting your account hacked
2707 2013-04-01 19:57:49 <MC1984> ok so now i reset my blockchain.......
2708 2013-04-01 19:57:51 coolsa has joined
2709 2013-04-01 19:57:55 <mouseofthesteppe> are we on 0.8.1.0-g34d62a8-beta?
2710 2013-04-01 19:58:06 <sipa> ThomasV: apparently not with ECDSA (Dan wasn't entirely sure yet, but probably)
2711 2013-04-01 19:58:30 <sipa> ThomasV: but a solution would be to have two separate derivation mechanisms, one that doesn't allow public sharing and one that does
2712 2013-04-01 19:58:36 <TD> http://blockchain.info/address/1LrPYjto3hsLzWJNstghuwdrQXB96KbrCy
2713 2013-04-01 19:58:37 <mouseofthesteppe> or is that just a weird outdated ppa?
2714 2013-04-01 19:58:37 <TD> uh oh
2715 2013-04-01 19:58:41 <MC1984> is it normal that my lowset pinging peer is 600ms
2716 2013-04-01 19:58:42 <sipa> but that complicates the nice simple design
2717 2013-04-01 19:58:42 <ThomasV> sipa: when you say "everything" you mean even above the parent with the public key?
2718 2013-04-01 19:58:46 <Luke-Jr> jspilman: you're not supposed to reuse keys
2719 2013-04-01 19:58:55 <sipa> ThomasV: no, up to the parent public
2720 2013-04-01 19:59:01 <ThomasV> ok
2721 2013-04-01 19:59:09 <sipa> ThomasV: and everything below it
2722 2013-04-01 19:59:16 <ThomasV> yeah sure
2723 2013-04-01 19:59:18 <TD> MC1984: hmm that sounds a little high, but it's possible if you're on a slow connection and your best peer is far away
2724 2013-04-01 19:59:30 <Luke-Jr> mouseofthesteppe: looks up to date to me
2725 2013-04-01 19:59:37 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
2726 2013-04-01 19:59:43 <MC1984> TD 20mbit cable wifi
2727 2013-04-01 19:59:58 discrete has joined
2728 2013-04-01 20:00:01 <TD> ok. then i'd say it's a bit high. but possible. especially if the remote peer is a bit busy or slow
2729 2013-04-01 20:00:04 <sipa> "cable wifi" sounds like a suitable advertisement today
2730 2013-04-01 20:00:14 <MC1984> pings have always been very high since the peer monitor was introduced tbh
2731 2013-04-01 20:00:15 bbtech has joined
2732 2013-04-01 20:00:17 <Goonie> TD, MC1984: I also sometimes see high ping values, I'm not sure if the measurement is exact
2733 2013-04-01 20:00:19 <jspilman> luke-jr: understood
2734 2013-04-01 20:00:39 MobPhone has quit (Quit: -a- bbl)
2735 2013-04-01 20:00:41 Anastasios has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2736 2013-04-01 20:00:50 <TD> why the hell is/was there 14,000+ bitcoins in instawallet, of all places
2737 2013-04-01 20:01:02 <MC1984> so the main thing about this is a new faster chainstore?
2738 2013-04-01 20:01:03 <Luke-Jr> trying again: anyone know how I can calculate the probability (in average hours) a N-deep reorg occurs?
2739 2013-04-01 20:01:04 <TD> the wallet that grants access to anyone who knows your custom url
2740 2013-04-01 20:01:05 <sipa> it was in cold storage!
2741 2013-04-01 20:01:08 <jspilman> td: never underestimate the stupidity of the human race?
2742 2013-04-01 20:01:38 <TD> MC1984: yeah, faster, less disk space usage, more reliable. and for new users, it doesn't have the long chain sync period
2743 2013-04-01 20:01:53 <TD> MC1984: or rather it does, but the period is much smaller. like 5-10 seconds
2744 2013-04-01 20:02:01 sgornick_ has joined
2745 2013-04-01 20:02:08 bwen has joined
2746 2013-04-01 20:02:27 neo2 has joined
2747 2013-04-01 20:02:31 <MC1984> well the chain replay went from 3 months to 2 weeks really fast, now stuck ther eand my bolded peer is up to 9000ms :/
2748 2013-04-01 20:02:49 <MC1984> the others are 200ms
2749 2013-04-01 20:02:55 <sipa> i have 650ms ping time, over EDGE
2750 2013-04-01 20:03:12 <MC1984> this if wifi
2751 2013-04-01 20:03:22 <bwen> https://blockchain.info/address/16bv2C4xeEoZuxCMzUP5mAbcAHtHN7vtcT there was a transaction on the 2013-03-27 22:57:14 of 5btc (total) I cannot explain why it does not come from more than 1 address ?
2752 2013-04-01 20:03:36 <MC1984> ok chain replay finished, and ping time is back down to 300
2753 2013-04-01 20:03:45 <MC1984> seems like something got held up there
2754 2013-04-01 20:03:51 <TD> peers are single threaded
2755 2013-04-01 20:03:59 <TD> so if they get busy pushing blocks to somebody else they can hang up on you for a while
2756 2013-04-01 20:04:09 <TD> MC1984: you should have got back a lot of disk space now
2757 2013-04-01 20:04:13 <TD> (if you care about that)
2758 2013-04-01 20:04:17 <sipa> bwen: why would it come from more than one address?
2759 2013-04-01 20:04:25 <MC1984> does the testnet chain take much space anyway?
2760 2013-04-01 20:04:32 <MC1984> and yes i do care about that
2761 2013-04-01 20:04:36 <sipa> bwen: there were two coins available on the same address, and together they were enough
2762 2013-04-01 20:04:40 <TD> ok
2763 2013-04-01 20:04:42 <Goonie> TD: perhaps also the remaining threading issues have influence on the measurement
2764 2013-04-01 20:05:05 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2765 2013-04-01 20:05:07 <MC1984> is the "ping" based on actual icmp pings or some sort of bitcoin specific RTT measurement
2766 2013-04-01 20:05:12 <TD> Goonie: i don't think so. i haven't seen any such things in my own testing. but i know that multi-second ping times are possible when a node is really busy. like if it's syncing the block chain itself
2767 2013-04-01 20:05:12 Ashaman has joined
2768 2013-04-01 20:05:17 <TD> MC1984: bitcoin level pings
2769 2013-04-01 20:05:26 <TD> MC1984: so it incorporates delay in the main bitcoind thread
2770 2013-04-01 20:05:30 <sipa> 230ms over HSDPA
2771 2013-04-01 20:05:35 <MC1984> ah that explains it
2772 2013-04-01 20:05:51 <jspilman> is this Instawallet getting 0wned? http://blockchain.info/address/1LrPYjto3hsLzWJNstghuwdrQXB96KbrCy
2773 2013-04-01 20:06:02 <TD> nobody knows jspilman
2774 2013-04-01 20:06:06 <bwen> sipa: it sent the balance of 3btc back to itself... why wasnt it 10btc since 7 + 4 + 1 - 2 = 10 ?
2775 2013-04-01 20:06:08 <TD> hope not. but they said they detected a security breach.
2776 2013-04-01 20:06:18 <Luke-Jr> I'm seeing well over 500ms for every peer, with wifi
2777 2013-04-01 20:06:19 <TD> so it's apparently not a routine maintenance transaction
2778 2013-04-01 20:06:23 <jspilman> weird timestamp isn't it?
2779 2013-04-01 20:06:30 * TD was basically expecting something like this to happen
2780 2013-04-01 20:06:39 <TD> as the value of coins ramps up fast, motive to attack also ramps up
2781 2013-04-01 20:06:41 <sipa> bwen: which transaction are you talking about?
2782 2013-04-01 20:06:56 <bwen> sipa: a77e4b6a5fab18b106dd2ae9ba2e72597c199ed1f5190c6b9ef1e25163ae57d8
2783 2013-04-01 20:07:01 <jspilman> 5 hours in the future?
2784 2013-04-01 20:07:02 <TD> until eventually the amount of value being protected is completely out of whack with the level of security somebody has
2785 2013-04-01 20:07:02 <MC1984> ok the blockstore went from 6mb to 600kb
2786 2013-04-01 20:07:05 <MC1984> good work!
2787 2013-04-01 20:07:14 BlackPrapor has joined
2788 2013-04-01 20:07:16 <sipa> bwen: ok, and what's the problem with it?
2789 2013-04-01 20:07:42 <MC1984> my prodnet blockstore is 28mb
2790 2013-04-01 20:07:42 <bwen> sipa: I dont understand why it sent 2.9995btc back to itself instead of 10btc
2791 2013-04-01 20:07:49 GMP has joined
2792 2013-04-01 20:07:52 <sipa> bwen: why 10?
2793 2013-04-01 20:07:55 <gmaxwell> TD: at 14000 BTC at current exchange rates, it's worth hiring a crackhead to drive a car through the side of a typical colo facility.
2794 2013-04-01 20:07:58 <sipa> where does the number 10 come from?
2795 2013-04-01 20:08:00 <MC1984> imma install the prodnet beta and see what happens
2796 2013-04-01 20:08:05 <bwen> sipa: because that was the balance of the address at the time?
2797 2013-04-01 20:08:05 <TD> yeah, exactly
2798 2013-04-01 20:08:08 <TD> or significantly worse
2799 2013-04-01 20:08:12 <TD> (given the minimal chance of being caught)
2800 2013-04-01 20:08:19 <sipa> bwen: bitcoin does not work with balances or addresses!
2801 2013-04-01 20:08:24 <sipa> bwen: bitcoin works with coins!
2802 2013-04-01 20:08:31 <sipa> bwen: (unspent transaction outputs)
2803 2013-04-01 20:08:35 <bwen> sipa: why send the balance to itself then...
2804 2013-04-01 20:08:39 <bwen> ahhh ic
2805 2013-04-01 20:08:41 <sipa> it doesn't
2806 2013-04-01 20:08:44 <sipa> it consumes coins
2807 2013-04-01 20:08:46 johnsoft has joined
2808 2013-04-01 20:08:47 <sipa> and produces new coins
2809 2013-04-01 20:08:52 <sipa> and assigns those to addresses
2810 2013-04-01 20:08:54 <bwen> so unspent funds from the 4btc transaction
2811 2013-04-01 20:08:55 <TD> professional, team based identity frauds …. insider corruption …. kidnapping/extortion of friends+family. i would NOT want to be holding a really large quantity of coin right now
2812 2013-04-01 20:08:57 <sipa> you always consume a coin entirely
2813 2013-04-01 20:08:58 <gmaxwell> TD: not to mention that in _most_ colo facilities you can break in with far less effort than driving a car through a wall.  There are facilities that are designed for high security, but they're costly and not super well known.
2814 2013-04-01 20:09:03 <jspilman> Proposal for adding a new URI format:  bitcoin:pubkey?sendTo=<url>&label=<label>&message=<msg> -- would create a new address in the wallet, and send the *pubkey* to the specified URL.
2815 2013-04-01 20:09:09 smooth has joined
2816 2013-04-01 20:09:17 <TD> gmaxwell: for a cold storage wallet i assume it is not in a colo
2817 2013-04-01 20:09:27 <sipa> bwen: read this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Change
2818 2013-04-01 20:09:33 <bwen> ty, reading :)
2819 2013-04-01 20:09:34 <jspilman> If I coded the pull request -- would you take it?
2820 2013-04-01 20:09:43 <TD> but i would not be surprised if it was, eg, in an office somewhere. even if it's in a safe, safes are rated in "hours resisted", hardly impossible to break into an office and force open a safe
2821 2013-04-01 20:10:11 <TD> what is flexcoin?
2822 2013-04-01 20:10:12 <sipa> jspilman: i think the payment protocol that is in development has a wider scope
2823 2013-04-01 20:10:47 johnsoft1 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2824 2013-04-01 20:10:49 <sipa> jspilman: https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/4120476
2825 2013-04-01 20:10:59 jchp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2826 2013-04-01 20:11:07 safra has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2827 2013-04-01 20:11:29 <jspilman> yeah, read it
2828 2013-04-01 20:11:48 <MC1984> who wants some testcoins?
2829 2013-04-01 20:11:49 jchp has joined
2830 2013-04-01 20:12:37 <MC1984> otherwise my beta testing this amounts to staring at the screen willing it to crash
2831 2013-04-01 20:12:40 <Goonie> TD: what do you think is needed so that fraud/kidnapping threat can be ignored again?
2832 2013-04-01 20:12:49 <jspilman> there are plenty of cases where you want a pubkey but it has nothing to do with a payment
2833 2013-04-01 20:12:52 <TD> for people to not store their bitcoins in bitbanks?
2834 2013-04-01 20:12:58 <jspilman> or at least, not *immediately*
2835 2013-04-01 20:12:59 <TD> MC1984: give me a few mins
2836 2013-04-01 20:13:34 <Luke-Jr> jspilman: name some, and propose how they could be added to the payment protocol
2837 2013-04-01 20:14:12 <jspilman> ok, will think about it and write it up
2838 2013-04-01 20:14:15 <jspilman> thanks
2839 2013-04-01 20:14:17 <Goonie> TD: I don't understand the relation. If someone knows you have money, they can extort you. Doesn't matter where it is stored, is it?
2840 2013-04-01 20:14:19 fpgaminer has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2841 2013-04-01 20:14:34 <TD> MC1984: hmm on testnet i also see lots of slow peers
2842 2013-04-01 20:14:35 <Goonie> Ok they can extort the bitbanks of course.
2843 2013-04-01 20:14:40 <TD> MC1984: i don't see it on the production network.
2844 2013-04-01 20:14:49 <TD> MC1984: btw. for some reason, the app is much slower on testnet than the main network.
2845 2013-04-01 20:15:02 <gmaxwell> Goonie: the distinction is that a 'bank' creates a single point of consolidation which is widely known to have a ton of coin.
2846 2013-04-01 20:15:45 <TD> MC1984: n4qAwZgGw7rQU7RTqcRyWLKQ8nhQbHaSCB
2847 2013-04-01 20:15:53 <Goonie> ok so the threat is not on the users, but on the banks.
2848 2013-04-01 20:16:01 <MC1984> mainnet chain replay is only 6 weeks behind
2849 2013-04-01 20:16:02 <MC1984> wtf
2850 2013-04-01 20:16:11 <TD> Goonie: if you were a single very, very person then yes it'd also be a concern.
2851 2013-04-01 20:16:14 <sturles> Anyon know anything about the Bitcoin-Central / Instawallet / Paytunia security breach?  This looks scary, but on the other hand the transactions are not confirmed.  Any reason why not?  http://blockchain.info/address/1LrPYjto3hsLzWJNstghuwdrQXB96KbrCy
2852 2013-04-01 20:16:18 <jspilman> in general though, if you support shipping pubkeys, and you can support requesting a signature for a given hex, then I think you can build pretty much anything on top of that.  if the protocol is "higher level" than that, it will limit what you can do -- not necessarily a "bad thing" to limit what you can do.  I will work on specific use cases to justify the functionality
2853 2013-04-01 20:16:22 grau has joined
2854 2013-04-01 20:16:30 <TD> Goonie: standard security measures can help with that, requiring the assistance of a third party, etc
2855 2013-04-01 20:16:38 <CodeShark> reminds me of Willie Sutton
2856 2013-04-01 20:16:54 <CodeShark> "Why do you rob banks?" "Because that's where the money is"
2857 2013-04-01 20:16:55 <TD> MC1984: is that a new install?
2858 2013-04-01 20:17:00 HiWEB has left ()
2859 2013-04-01 20:17:04 <MC1984> no
2860 2013-04-01 20:17:16 <helo> TD: just saw your talk from london 2012... incredible job :)
2861 2013-04-01 20:17:22 <TD> helo: thanks!
2862 2013-04-01 20:17:27 <MC1984> should i uninstall and reinstall
2863 2013-04-01 20:17:35 <TD> MC1984: uninstalling destroys the wallet! so no
2864 2013-04-01 20:17:42 <TD> MC1984: you can just replay as before, to get the new block store
2865 2013-04-01 20:17:47 <MC1984> ive got no real coins on this
2866 2013-04-01 20:17:51 * TD waits for a testnet block
2867 2013-04-01 20:17:55 <TD> MC1984: ah ok
2868 2013-04-01 20:17:58 <TD> MC1984: no problem then
2869 2013-04-01 20:18:03 <TD> MC1984: sure, why not test the new user experience for us
2870 2013-04-01 20:18:10 <sipa> jspilman: in my personal opinion, the fact that transactions as they are done now (using the p2p network to let sender and receiver communicate) is a hack that somehow became the only way possible, but i see very few use cases for it (anonimous donations pretty much being the only one)
2871 2013-04-01 20:18:20 <MC1984> i did replay the chain and it started from 6 weeks ago
2872 2013-04-01 20:18:23 <TD> yeah
2873 2013-04-01 20:18:25 <TD> that's expected
2874 2013-04-01 20:18:28 <TD> it's starting from a checkpoint
2875 2013-04-01 20:18:34 <sipa> jspilman: and i'd rather not encourage it further
2876 2013-04-01 20:18:54 <EPiSKiNG-> I'm having difficulty importing PrivateKey in QT
2877 2013-04-01 20:18:59 <EPiSKiNG-> on windows
2878 2013-04-01 20:19:07 <MC1984> oh yeah you have checkpoints now
2879 2013-04-01 20:19:08 RoboTeddy has joined
2880 2013-04-01 20:19:20 <MC1984> boo hisss
2881 2013-04-01 20:19:20 <sipa> EPiSKiNG-: does it start with a 5 or a K or an L?
2882 2013-04-01 20:19:31 <EPiSKiNG-> I'm in debug console, and typed "importprivkey PRIVKEYHERE "name""
2883 2013-04-01 20:19:32 <TD> helo: if you have any questions, let me know
2884 2013-04-01 20:19:37 <EPiSKiNG-> starts with a 5K
2885 2013-04-01 20:19:37 brson has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2886 2013-04-01 20:19:38 <gmaxwell> TD: are you aware of any reason why multibit would display a public key for which the private key doesn't show up in exports?
2887 2013-04-01 20:19:47 <gmaxwell> (and which it won't display any transactions for)
2888 2013-04-01 20:19:51 <Goonie> Oh my god, I'm starting to get "Litecoin Wallet for Android" crash reports on my report email address. (-:
2889 2013-04-01 20:19:52 <bwen> sipa: I love bitcoins 8]
2890 2013-04-01 20:19:58 <TD> Goonie: ahahaha
2891 2013-04-01 20:20:06 <TD> LITECOIN!
2892 2013-04-01 20:20:09 <TD> gmaxwell: no
2893 2013-04-01 20:20:13 <EPiSKiNG-> Error adding key to wallet (code -4)
2894 2013-04-01 20:20:26 <Goonie> Note to anyone, if you're forking an app, make sure to replace all contact addresses...
2895 2013-04-01 20:20:37 <TD> gmaxwell: but like most such bug reports, i have no context so can't give a useful comment. i don't recall if multibit lets you add watch-only keys
2896 2013-04-01 20:20:45 <sipa> EPiSKiNG-: most likely reason: it's already there
2897 2013-04-01 20:21:12 <TD> gmaxwell: right now multibit is still based on quite old code
2898 2013-04-01 20:21:16 <gmaxwell> TD: I couldn't find any way to add a watch only, he claimed multibit generated it.  Thats actually the question I was mostly asking. .. e.g. you might have answered "you can add a watch only key by XYZ"
2899 2013-04-01 20:21:30 <sipa> EPiSKiNG-: or if it's encrypted, you'll need to unlock first
2900 2013-04-01 20:21:32 <MC1984> TD invalid address
2901 2013-04-01 20:21:33 <EPiSKiNG-> sipa: hmmm.. in my Address Book
2902 2013-04-01 20:21:42 <EPiSKiNG-> the private key i imported before is gone
2903 2013-04-01 20:21:43 <TD> gmaxwell: so i tend to think it's best to wait and then test again, when he gets a new release out
2904 2013-04-01 20:21:47 <TD> MC1984: for testnet?
2905 2013-04-01 20:21:50 <gmaxwell> TD: he's been sent off to email the authors in any case, just thought I'd ask because you're here.
2906 2013-04-01 20:21:55 <MC1984> thats what it says
2907 2013-04-01 20:21:57 <TD> MC1984: that's odd. i just sent myself some test coins from the faucet
2908 2013-04-01 20:22:02 saivann has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2909 2013-04-01 20:22:06 <MC1984> let me check
2910 2013-04-01 20:22:08 <TD> MC1984: n4qAwZgGw7rQU7RTqcRyWLKQ8nhQbHaSCB
2911 2013-04-01 20:22:15 <gmaxwell> TD: heh. well not exactly a great answer for someone who just sent thousands of dollars in bitcoin to it and now wonders where it went! :P
2912 2013-04-01 20:22:17 <EPiSKiNG-> ahh
2913 2013-04-01 20:22:24 <EPiSKiNG-> sipa: was looking in the wrong place
2914 2013-04-01 20:22:25 <EPiSKiNG-> thanks
2915 2013-04-01 20:22:26 brson has joined
2916 2013-04-01 20:22:31 msiren has joined
2917 2013-04-01 20:22:31 <TD> gmaxwell: ok. that sounds like a scary bug
2918 2013-04-01 20:22:39 <TD> gmaxwell: i've never heard of such a thing before though
2919 2013-04-01 20:23:01 <gmaxwell> TD: yea, his receve panel (confirmed by screenshots) shows 21 addresses, but the export only gets 20 private keys. :(
2920 2013-04-01 20:23:14 * TD is sure it's only a matter of time until some wallet app loses people money
2921 2013-04-01 20:23:33 <TD> well ….. then i'm stumped. bitcoinj doesn't have any "export" code per se.
2922 2013-04-01 20:23:37 <TD> that's stuff that people add on top
2923 2013-04-01 20:23:40 <TD> it just saves its own wallet format
2924 2013-04-01 20:23:50 LainZ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2925 2013-04-01 20:23:53 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2926 2013-04-01 20:23:55 <Goonie> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.schildbach.wallet.litecoin
2927 2013-04-01 20:24:01 <gmaxwell> TD: yup. It's clear that it's not just the export though, since the transaction (long confirmed) doesn't show up in the wallet either.
2928 2013-04-01 20:24:03 <TD> Goonie: didn't even change the package name!
2929 2013-04-01 20:24:06 <TD> Goonie: hilarious
2930 2013-04-01 20:24:22 <MC1984> TD did you get that
2931 2013-04-01 20:24:34 <TD> MC1984: yep
2932 2013-04-01 20:24:35 <sipa> also Star Trek Deep Space 9 sounds by the same author
2933 2013-04-01 20:24:47 <MC1984> i derped and included a blankspace on the QR encoder
2934 2013-04-01 20:24:48 <TD> MC1984: want me to send you some back?
2935 2013-04-01 20:24:53 <gmaxwell> Goonie: you should add a "if (something that detects this is litecoin){ sleep(15 minutes); pop_up_obnoxious_message();}  :P
2936 2013-04-01 20:24:57 <MC1984> yeah send
2937 2013-04-01 20:25:14 <TD> sent
2938 2013-04-01 20:25:35 <TD> Goonie: lol. they even copy/pasted the release notes
2939 2013-04-01 20:25:36 <MC1984> strange it was disconnected
2940 2013-04-01 20:25:37 <TD> Goonie: what a crappy job
2941 2013-04-01 20:25:41 <MC1984> until i hit the peer monitor
2942 2013-04-01 20:25:51 <MC1984> just after i sent you
2943 2013-04-01 20:26:06 <Goonie> TD: well at least its better than the blockchain wallet
2944 2013-04-01 20:26:14 <TD> how so?
2945 2013-04-01 20:26:17 <sipa> Goonie: is it really just a s/Bitcoin/Litecoin/ job?
2946 2013-04-01 20:26:20 <MC1984> Goonie you make a litecoin wallet? noooooooo
2947 2013-04-01 20:26:20 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2948 2013-04-01 20:26:32 <Goonie> TD: they plan to rebase frequently
2949 2013-04-01 20:26:32 o8gf5 has joined
2950 2013-04-01 20:26:36 <TD> ok
2951 2013-04-01 20:26:40 <Goonie> TD: blockchains code is unmaintainable
2952 2013-04-01 20:26:57 <TD> that's too bad. i guess ben only cared about grabbing the UI code though
2953 2013-04-01 20:27:06 <Goonie> TD: and it leaks all their users email addresses to me (-:
2954 2013-04-01 20:27:21 <gmaxwell> People stealing avalon shipments by redirecting DHL. 0_o I suppose I expected this, but only a little bit. ( https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=163795.0 )
2955 2013-04-01 20:27:31 <aceat64> Goonie: at least he gave you credit lol
2956 2013-04-01 20:27:48 <TD> gmaxwell: if you want you can ask him to send his wallet file to me and i'll take a look inside. but i can't accept (much) responsibility for what i find there …
2957 2013-04-01 20:27:56 smooth has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2958 2013-04-01 20:27:59 <MC1984> gmaxwell jesus
2959 2013-04-01 20:28:11 <Goonie> TD: and the best thing is I think they lost their signing key, because they completely restarted their user base some weeks ago
2960 2013-04-01 20:28:35 <gmaxwell> TD: I generally try not to accept wallets from people. It's only a matter of time until some troll asks me to help them out and then claims I robbed them to try to extort funds from me. :(  But if he shows back up without making progress I'll direct him to you.
2961 2013-04-01 20:28:45 pizzacat has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2962 2013-04-01 20:28:47 techlife has joined
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2964 2013-04-01 20:28:51 <MC1984> people need to start learning about keeping youe mouth shut when you have a good thing going
2965 2013-04-01 20:28:59 <MC1984> like an early asic on the way
2966 2013-04-01 20:29:01 <TD> ok
2967 2013-04-01 20:29:20 techlife has joined
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2969 2013-04-01 20:29:26 <TD> gmaxwell: wow
2970 2013-04-01 20:29:56 techlife has joined
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2972 2013-04-01 20:30:30 techlife has joined
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2974 2013-04-01 20:30:32 <MC1984> this beta seems to drop its connections after idling for a while
2975 2013-04-01 20:30:39 <MC1984> i think
2976 2013-04-01 20:31:04 techlife has joined
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2978 2013-04-01 20:31:09 <TD>  Goonie, yeah is that deliberate?
2979 2013-04-01 20:31:40 techlife has joined
2980 2013-04-01 20:31:40 <MC1984> getting confirms on the txns, everything looks good
2981 2013-04-01 20:31:41 <Goonie> MC1984: 2-3 minutes after no block is received the connections are dropped
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2983 2013-04-01 20:31:51 root2 has joined
2984 2013-04-01 20:31:56 Pelanor is now known as TheDudue
2985 2013-04-01 20:32:04 <MC1984> some nice UI tweaks
2986 2013-04-01 20:32:10 TheDudue is now known as The
2987 2013-04-01 20:32:14 techlife has joined
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2989 2013-04-01 20:32:40 The is now known as Guest17178
2990 2013-04-01 20:32:46 <TD> Goonie: hmm. maybe users won't expect that - if they're waiting for a confirmation?
2991 2013-04-01 20:32:48 techlife has joined
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2993 2013-04-01 20:32:59 Guest17178 is now known as Abraxas
2994 2013-04-01 20:33:07 <Goonie> TD: well how should the app know?
2995 2013-04-01 20:33:18 <Goonie> TD: it reconnects 15 minutes later
2996 2013-04-01 20:33:20 techlife has joined
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2998 2013-04-01 20:33:21 <TD> why not just disconnect when it's no longer on the screen?
2999 2013-04-01 20:33:24 <Abraxas> test
3000 2013-04-01 20:33:26 <bwen> are there any hooks for events in bitcoind? say like if I could tell bitcoind to execute a script on every new transaction or confirm it gets?
3001 2013-04-01 20:33:27 <MC1984> txns in the list with <6 confims?
3002 2013-04-01 20:33:37 manacit has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3003 2013-04-01 20:33:38 <bwen> like instead of long polling the jsonrpc
3004 2013-04-01 20:33:47 <MC1984> shouldnt drop connections untill that pie is full maybe
3005 2013-04-01 20:33:49 Abraxas is now known as AlbertTuring
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3009 2013-04-01 20:34:17 <Goonie> MC1984 that would mean 1 hour or radio usage... eats battery like hell
3010 2013-04-01 20:34:29 techlife has joined
3011 2013-04-01 20:34:51 <MC1984> i thought there wouldnt be much protocol chatter now with the bloom filters?
3012 2013-04-01 20:35:14 <Goonie> MC1984: if you're sending, stay on the send page rather than going back immediately. It will stay connected.
3013 2013-04-01 20:35:22 <sipa> bwen: there is -blocknotify, and git master also has -walletnotify
3014 2013-04-01 20:35:40 BlueWall has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3015 2013-04-01 20:35:49 <MC1984> cant see confirms from there though
3016 2013-04-01 20:36:09 <Goonie> MC1984: for receiving, I've not got such a solution except that I have a branch with some nice extensions to the request bitcoins screen.
3017 2013-04-01 20:36:11 <TD> MC1984: there are still things like address broadcasts and pings. we can switch off the latter or make them much smarter. to opt out of address broadcasts, it's a bit more work
3018 2013-04-01 20:36:30 <TD> Goonie: it seems like "connected whilst on screen" is a reasonable rule. and isn't that how it used to work?
3019 2013-04-01 20:36:32 <MC1984> ok
3020 2013-04-01 20:36:36 <Goonie> mc1984: of course you can. Have a look at the bottom of the send screen.
3021 2013-04-01 20:36:59 <bVector> blockchain.info just sent a transaction with 0btc fees :(
3022 2013-04-01 20:37:06 <bVector> taking forever to confirm
3023 2013-04-01 20:37:08 <MC1984> new install of mainnet wwallet was ready to use almost instantly
3024 2013-04-01 20:37:17 <MC1984> 6 wek checkpoint
3025 2013-04-01 20:37:30 <MC1984> checkpoints are cheating a bit though
3026 2013-04-01 20:38:10 meLon has joined
3027 2013-04-01 20:38:20 <Goonie> TD: it never used to work like that, but I'll rethink the decision.
3028 2013-04-01 20:38:24 <TD> Goonie: ok
3029 2013-04-01 20:38:30 oru has quit (Quit: restarting)
3030 2013-04-01 20:38:41 MobiusL has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3031 2013-04-01 20:38:41 <neo2> Is it possible to make a "paper wallet" to treat it as a saving account, then send coins to it every time?
3032 2013-04-01 20:38:53 <TD> MC1984: well, this is a matter of philosophy. you already trust the developers of your wallet app. so having checkpoints does not change the level of trust you need, given how easy it is to audit the checkpoints are correct.
3033 2013-04-01 20:38:54 <Goonie> TD: I think I thought that 15 minute intervals are good enough if you're waiting for an event that is going to happen in approx. 10 minutes.
3034 2013-04-01 20:39:01 <MC1984> blockstore went from 21mb to 626kb
3035 2013-04-01 20:39:02 * TD will make the BuildCheckpoints tool have an easy to use audit mode in future
3036 2013-04-01 20:39:32 <TD> Goonie: yeah, but if someone is keeping the wallet on screen and the phone awake, probably it means they're waiting for a confirm and want to finish up as soon as possible.
3037 2013-04-01 20:39:47 <MC1984> TD yeah its philosophy fwiw i say satoshi checkpoints are annoying too
3038 2013-04-01 20:40:07 <Goonie> TD: however, I'm not satisfied with the auditability with the checkpoint, given that its a binary file and we have no tool for it
3039 2013-04-01 20:40:39 <TD> Goonie: i'm planning on just letting you specify an existing file to the tool and then it'll look at the height, build a new checkpoint file up to the same height and verify they hash the same
3040 2013-04-01 20:40:52 MobiusL has joined
3041 2013-04-01 20:40:56 manacit has joined
3042 2013-04-01 20:41:09 <TD> Goonie: and then after that, add in support for signing the file
3043 2013-04-01 20:41:13 c00w has joined
3044 2013-04-01 20:41:19 Perdos has joined
3045 2013-04-01 20:42:42 Pinion has joined
3046 2013-04-01 20:42:51 smickles has joined
3047 2013-04-01 20:42:56 <Goonie> TD: currently I use cmp -b -l checkpoints.old checkpoints.new
3048 2013-04-01 20:43:05 Pinion is now known as Guest86799
3049 2013-04-01 20:43:20 <Goonie> TD: which works except for one number which is different (number of checkpoints)
3050 2013-04-01 20:43:30 <TD> yeah. like i said, it just means extending the tool a little bit
3051 2013-04-01 20:43:36 BlueWall has joined
3052 2013-04-01 20:44:02 <smickles> http://blockchain.info/address/1LrPYjto3hsLzWJNstghuwdrQXB96KbrCy << these txns are suspiciously unconfirmed. Is there a way to figure out if they are cleverly invalid, or using fancy parts of the protocol which arn't showing in blockchian.info?
3053 2013-04-01 20:44:23 <Goonie> TD: btw. can we design the signing in a way that I can sign with my GPG key? (I'd create an ecdsa GPG key if that is an issue)
3054 2013-04-01 20:44:26 <pgp> yes - bizarre txns
3055 2013-04-01 20:44:50 <TD> Goonie: i was just going to use raw/standard ecdsa keys
3056 2013-04-01 20:45:06 <TD> but it's not a high priority. the idea was to make it easy to update them out of cycle with the rest of the app
3057 2013-04-01 20:45:14 <Goonie> TD: the problem with that is that you need to code an entire toolchain for it - will take years
3058 2013-04-01 20:45:39 <Goonie> TD: for example, will you use the key from my OS key store?
3059 2013-04-01 20:46:00 <TD> was just gonna use a key stored in an (encrypted) wallet
3060 2013-04-01 20:46:05 <gmaxwell> Goonie: orphan transaction at my node.
3061 2013-04-01 20:46:06 <TD> we have to protect keys anyway ;)
3062 2013-04-01 20:46:34 <Goonie> gmaxwell: If you suspect anything unusual, can you send a crash report and include everything?
3063 2013-04-01 20:46:47 bitafterbit has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
3064 2013-04-01 20:47:00 <Goonie> gmaxwell: the earlier the better. Android log buffers are quite small.
3065 2013-04-01 20:47:02 <gmaxwell> Goonie: gah, sorry that was totally misdirected. I was attempting to respond to smickles
3066 2013-04-01 20:47:10 bitafterbit has joined
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3068 2013-04-01 20:47:16 <smickles> gmaxwell: thanks :)
3069 2013-04-01 20:47:33 <MC1984> testnet blocks quite slow?
3070 2013-04-01 20:47:37 <gmaxwell> smickles: 2013-04-01 17:55:18 stored orphan tx 996b0e98db (mapsz 285)
3071 2013-04-01 20:47:50 <Goonie> MC1984: thats expected unfortunately
3072 2013-04-01 20:48:14 <Goonie> MC1984: it is because of all these blocks at min difficulty, they are a lot slower than regular blocks
3073 2013-04-01 20:48:25 <TD> Goonie: maybe the safety notes should mention backups
3074 2013-04-01 20:48:46 <Goonie> TD: indeed.
3075 2013-04-01 20:48:56 <TD> it'd be good if the safety notes appeared automatically on first run too
3076 2013-04-01 20:49:02 safra has joined
3077 2013-04-01 20:49:11 * TD is just terrified of people losing their bitcoins either via not understanding the ui or weird/exotic bugs
3078 2013-04-01 20:49:14 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: This attack hurt us so much :( http://pastebin.com/h7iGK49T xD
3079 2013-04-01 20:49:40 Perdos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3080 2013-04-01 20:49:41 <MC1984> TD people are going to lose thier bitcoins guaranteed
3081 2013-04-01 20:49:46 saivann has joined
3082 2013-04-01 20:49:51 <sipa> 2013-04-01 17:44:49 CTxMemPool::accept() : accepted 996b0e98db (poolsz 785)
3083 2013-04-01 20:49:54 <MC1984> no one is used to data having monetary value
3084 2013-04-01 20:50:11 <gmaxwell> sipa: is 996b0e98db showing up in your getblocktemplate?
3085 2013-04-01 20:50:23 <starsoccer> wtf is up with all the small blocks?
3086 2013-04-01 20:50:40 <starsoccer> my transaction has been sitting for over an hour now
3087 2013-04-01 20:50:41 <TD> MC1984: eventually, bitcoin devs will probably get sued. i hope it's a long way off but in the world we live in, it seems inevitable.
3088 2013-04-01 20:50:54 <TD> somebody will lose their coins and try to find a way to blame someone else
3089 2013-04-01 20:51:09 <sipa> gmaxwell: no
3090 2013-04-01 20:51:22 BlackPrapor has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3091 2013-04-01 20:51:33 <Scrat> the MIT license will invalidate any lawsuits, no?
3092 2013-04-01 20:51:38 <gmaxwell> sipa: hm. any idea why?
3093 2013-04-01 20:51:40 <starsoccer> wtf another block and still not 1 confirmation
3094 2013-04-01 20:51:44 <starsoccer> what the hell is happening
3095 2013-04-01 20:51:45 <HM> there's a disclaimer of warranty in the license
3096 2013-04-01 20:51:53 BlackPrapor has joined
3097 2013-04-01 20:51:59 <MC1984> TD probably
3098 2013-04-01 20:52:16 <TD> yeah, but i bet that won't stop someone filing suit eventually. on the grounds that they didn't read the license, or whatever
3099 2013-04-01 20:52:24 <TD> perhaps something else for the safety notes or "warm welcome", hah
3100 2013-04-01 20:52:25 <gmaxwell> HM: every jurisdiction substantially limits how much you can waive that way... and those are not substantailly tested.
3101 2013-04-01 20:52:26 <MC1984> i think theyve disclaimed everything they can think of
3102 2013-04-01 20:52:36 <Goonie> TD: that story of some losing $10000 worth of btc by importing his cold storage into a live-cd like bitcoin-qt environement for 1 payment and losing everything could have happened to me as well.
3103 2013-04-01 20:52:48 <gmaxwell> Not to say that I think someone would be successful... but they could certantly waste your time and money defending it.
3104 2013-04-01 20:53:25 holorga_ has joined
3105 2013-04-01 20:53:38 <TD> Goonie: i didn't see that
3106 2013-04-01 20:54:16 Noted has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com ))
3107 2013-04-01 20:54:17 <Goonie> TD: I think it was on reddit yesterday or the day before
3108 2013-04-01 20:54:27 <HM> gmaxwell: satoshi probably made the smart decision then
3109 2013-04-01 20:54:30 <MC1984> hey Scrat
3110 2013-04-01 20:54:38 <Scrat> hey
3111 2013-04-01 20:54:45 <Goonie> TD: The title mentioned Brainwallets but this particular mistake had got nothing to do with brainwallets
3112 2013-04-01 20:54:48 <Scrat> cheeky kunt
3113 2013-04-01 20:54:50 <MC1984> grats on getting your thing plugged on torrentfreak
3114 2013-04-01 20:54:54 <Scrat> :)
3115 2013-04-01 20:55:01 Noted has joined
3116 2013-04-01 20:55:46 <MC1984> does TF actually take commissioned articles or just tip offs though?
3117 2013-04-01 20:55:57 <MC1984> they plug a lot of filesharing services
3118 2013-04-01 20:56:07 i2pRelay has joined
3119 2013-04-01 20:56:23 <Goonie> TD: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1bd1d1/i_think_i_just_lost_90btc_are_they_stolen_help/
3120 2013-04-01 20:56:36 <Goonie> TD: apparently it was multibit not brainwallet
3121 2013-04-01 20:56:56 <Goonie> TD: argh multibit not bitcoin-qt
3122 2013-04-01 20:57:02 <sipa> gmaxwell: don't know why, no
3123 2013-04-01 20:57:04 <Scrat> MC1984: they didnt ask for money
3124 2013-04-01 20:57:06 Conflict has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3125 2013-04-01 20:57:08 <Scrat> (offtopic)
3126 2013-04-01 20:57:15 <TD> "I used MultiBit and exported my wallet to a file, then modified the file to contain my priv key, then I transferred 12BTC to my blockchain wallet."
3127 2013-04-01 20:57:26 <TD> what does "exported my wallet to a file" mean, i wonder
3128 2013-04-01 20:57:39 <gmaxwell> It was a composition of brainwallets and multibit.  (and that particular failure mode is one of the specific reasons we have not yet exposed import in the GUI in bitcoin-qt)
3129 2013-04-01 20:57:41 <TD> this must be what gmaxwell was talkign about
3130 2013-04-01 20:57:41 safra has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3131 2013-04-01 20:57:48 <TD> yeah
3132 2013-04-01 20:57:48 <gmaxwell> TD: nope.
3133 2013-04-01 20:57:52 <TD> no? oh
3134 2013-04-01 20:57:58 <Goonie> read the tl;tr by "17chk4u"
3135 2013-04-01 20:58:06 Conflict has joined
3136 2013-04-01 20:58:26 <MC1984> i remember the lost 9000 coins guy who got fucked over before we had a keypool
3137 2013-04-01 20:58:33 <gmaxwell> TD: the person I was talking about used multibit normally, and has funds not showing up. To try to recover them they used the export to get private keys to import into blockchain.info, but the export is missing the key that isn't working.
3138 2013-04-01 20:58:37 <MC1984> moving backups around
3139 2013-04-01 20:58:57 <TD> right
3140 2013-04-01 20:59:03 <gmaxwell> TD: when that guy showed up today I thought he'd done the same thing too! I made him screenshot the client. :P
3141 2013-04-01 20:59:35 <redeeman> i dont think theres much in the way of technical solutions to prevent poeople from losing coins
3142 2013-04-01 20:59:47 <redeeman> allthough deterministic keypair generation seems promising
3143 2013-04-01 20:59:51 <TD> yes. this is why i am not at all keen on people moving private keys around
3144 2013-04-01 21:00:11 <TD> it's way, way too easy for people to screw up and lose money. in this case it seems like a fairly basic error - he assumed change would go back to the key he imported
3145 2013-04-01 21:00:25 <gmaxwell> TD: yup. Esp since there are so many crazy misunderstandings about how bitcoin works.
3146 2013-04-01 21:01:04 <Scrat> crazy crazy crazy, just look at this http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/04/bitcoin-value-triples-in-a-month-to-all-time-high-of-more-than-100/
3147 2013-04-01 21:01:08 <Goonie> TD: yes, but it is intuitive. So I'd imagine it could have happened to me too
3148 2013-04-01 21:01:20 <Scrat> "The encrypted, peer-to-peer digital currency has gone through some rocky times"
3149 2013-04-01 21:01:21 <sipa> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1bdbsk/bitcoin_client_developers_default_to_sending/c963n0j
3150 2013-04-01 21:01:21 <Scrat> encrypted currency :/
3151 2013-04-01 21:01:22 <TD> as satoshi said, "why would anyone ever delete a wallet"
3152 2013-04-01 21:01:30 <TD> but we need to make savings wallets easier to manage
3153 2013-04-01 21:01:54 <TD> but then again, this guy was using a brainwallet
3154 2013-04-01 21:01:59 <TD> so i think he was already hosed
3155 2013-04-01 21:02:15 <TD> he just didn't realize it. if not this, his help post would have been asking why his coins went walkies and how great his passphrase was
3156 2013-04-01 21:03:14 <gmaxwell> yep.
3157 2013-04-01 21:03:43 <gmaxwell> sipa: You always make such excellent comments.
3158 2013-04-01 21:03:43 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3159 2013-04-01 21:03:44 <MC1984> brainwallets should only be HD
3160 2013-04-01 21:03:57 RoboTeddy has joined
3161 2013-04-01 21:04:03 <MC1984> that guy had memorised a single key right
3162 2013-04-01 21:04:16 i2pRelay has joined
3163 2013-04-01 21:04:30 <MC1984> whats this periwinkle thing on reddit
3164 2013-04-01 21:04:51 <TD> he hadn't memorized a key
3165 2013-04-01 21:04:59 <TD> he had generated one based on a passphrase. and then was trying to import it into multibit
3166 2013-04-01 21:05:28 <TD> and then when he sent money "out" of his wallet, he didn't understand change outputs, so he lost all the change :(
3167 2013-04-01 21:05:34 <MC1984> he memorised the phrase for one saving address
3168 2013-04-01 21:05:38 <TD> a little knowledge is a dangerous thing ....
3169 2013-04-01 21:05:53 <MC1984> surely brainwallets should only be HD seeds
3170 2013-04-01 21:06:41 <skinnkavaj> http://blockchain.info/address/1LrPYjto3hsLzWJNstghuwdrQXB96KbrCy <- Why isn't this transaction confirmed?
3171 2013-04-01 21:06:49 <TD> well, not many wallets do HD right now
3172 2013-04-01 21:07:16 <TD> phew
3173 2013-04-01 21:07:17 <MC1984> it seems pretty imperative tbh
3174 2013-04-01 21:07:23 <TD> skinnkavaj: https://bitcoin-central.net/
3175 2013-04-01 21:07:27 <MC1984> losing funds like this is only goning to get worse
3176 2013-04-01 21:07:28 <TD> skinnkavaj: they control that address
3177 2013-04-01 21:07:38 <TD> *browwipe*
3178 2013-04-01 21:07:40 <skinnkavaj> ´but it should get confirmed anyway td?
3179 2013-04-01 21:07:54 <TD> yes, i'd think so. i don't know why it's not confirming
3180 2013-04-01 21:08:02 <TD> MC1984: we all know bitcoin needs to be simpler and more robust
3181 2013-04-01 21:08:09 <TD> there aren't enough people writing code :(
3182 2013-04-01 21:08:20 oru has joined
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3184 2013-04-01 21:08:20 oru has joined
3185 2013-04-01 21:08:30 <TD> i'd love for someone to step up and do HD wallets for bitcoinj. there's some java code that implements the algorithm
3186 2013-04-01 21:08:37 <TD> but nobody has integrated it with the rest of the system
3187 2013-04-01 21:08:39 <MC1984> im ot complaining
3188 2013-04-01 21:08:51 <MC1984> things are going as well as they could be
3189 2013-04-01 21:09:10 <redeeman> hd wallets?
3190 2013-04-01 21:09:15 <gavinandresen> speaking of brainwallets… I got an email from somebody who had their brainwallet hacked by a white-hat
3191 2013-04-01 21:09:18 ayalan has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3192 2013-04-01 21:09:42 <MC1984> is there a joke in there
3193 2013-04-01 21:11:46 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3194 2013-04-01 21:12:16 i2pRelay has joined
3195 2013-04-01 21:12:28 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: Couple hundred btc and they thought it was safe because they kept the key offline?
3196 2013-04-01 21:12:45 mercerist has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3197 2013-04-01 21:13:07 <gmaxwell> And the white hat found them by getting a mining pool that was effectively deanonymizing them due to address reuse to help locate them? :)
3198 2013-04-01 21:13:15 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: yup
3199 2013-04-01 21:13:17 <ThomasV> how did the white hat find the brain owning the brainwallet?
3200 2013-04-01 21:13:34 <gmaxwell> (wasn't me, but I've been talking to the relevant whitehat)
3201 2013-04-01 21:13:41 <ThomasV> heh
3202 2013-04-01 21:14:02 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: the user transacted with a mining pool that was reusing an address. Used that to find the user.
3203 2013-04-01 21:14:10 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: good, do you know if they're writing a paper or will start sounding the "BRAINWALLETS ARE A BAD IDEA" alarm?
3204 2013-04-01 21:14:11 <skinnkavaj> gavinandresen: do you know why this transaction has not been confirmed? http://blockchain.info/address/1LrPYjto3hsLzWJNstghuwdrQXB96KbrCy
3205 2013-04-01 21:14:12 LainZ has joined
3206 2013-04-01 21:14:14 <jspilman> if you set txout scriptPubKey to a multisig directly (versus using a P2SH with a multisig redeemScript) then there's no standard concept of the 'output address' for those coins, right?
3207 2013-04-01 21:14:27 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: He's planning on writing a paper.
3208 2013-04-01 21:14:31 <gavinandresen> skinnkavaj: it doesn't contain the number '11', so it it lower priority
3209 2013-04-01 21:14:34 ErnestoJuarell has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3210 2013-04-01 21:14:42 <sipa> jspilman: indeed
3211 2013-04-01 21:15:46 <gmaxwell> If anyone in here had any .. say, 1e-8 btc outputs to 'canary brainwallets' you should check to see if they've been taken.
3212 2013-04-01 21:16:34 <warren> why would someone pay to have them removed?
3213 2013-04-01 21:17:00 <gavinandresen> skinnkavaj: oh, that's the maybe-theft-from-instawallet-cold-storage transactions… no I have no idea what is going on there.
3214 2013-04-01 21:17:01 <jspilman> you can bundle the transfer with your own coins to get high enough priority to get them free
3215 2013-04-01 21:17:05 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3216 2013-04-01 21:17:07 <gmaxwell> warren: to show you their massive cracking skills.
3217 2013-04-01 21:17:27 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: instawallet says those txn are not theft, that they control the output.
3218 2013-04-01 21:17:46 <jspilman> http://blockexplorer.com/tx/996b0e98db80b20516313cd32920e7c8093a8a5bf1e1b1887747338a49052ce5 -- no such transaction
3219 2013-04-01 21:17:46 <gmaxwell> E.g. that they're just moving coin just in case because of some security breach.
3220 2013-04-01 21:17:58 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: phew, good
3221 2013-04-01 21:18:05 <jspilman> also note that the timestamp on the transaction is in the future
3222 2013-04-01 21:18:27 <sipa> transactions don't have a timestamp...
3223 2013-04-01 21:18:29 slacko3280 has joined
3224 2013-04-01 21:18:33 <gmaxwell> jspilman: transactions don't have timestamps. ... it's blockchain.info thats in the future.
3225 2013-04-01 21:18:42 <sipa> (or a different time zone)
3226 2013-04-01 21:18:54 <jspilman> it's not in the blockchain, so there is no transaction at all
3227 2013-04-01 21:19:37 imwotm8 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3228 2013-04-01 21:19:38 <jspilman> so it seems to be blockchain.info weirdness is what I'm saying
3229 2013-04-01 21:19:48 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3230 2013-04-01 21:20:19 i2pRelay has joined
3231 2013-04-01 21:20:24 <jspilman> I haven't tried to copy/paste the scripts and see if it's a valid transaction
3232 2013-04-01 21:20:46 <TD> gmaxwell: how does one hack a brainwallet? guess the passphrase?
3233 2013-04-01 21:20:56 <TD> gavinandresen: no theft, fortunately
3234 2013-04-01 21:21:08 * TD catches up to the head of the irc channel :)
3235 2013-04-01 21:21:22 <TD> gavinandresen: so, no announcement of the post mortem on the forums then?
3236 2013-04-01 21:21:25 <sipa> jspilman: my node has the transaction, and considers it valid
3237 2013-04-01 21:22:23 <gmaxwell> TD: yep, by performing high speed searches using statistical models of likely passphrase constructions and such. Same as cracking a stolen password database: but unlike a competent password database brainwallets are unsalted, so you get an enormous concurrent test speedup.
3238 2013-04-01 21:22:30 slacko3280 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
3239 2013-04-01 21:22:38 <gavinandresen> TD: I'm trying to limit the amount of time I spend on the forums, I'm tired of the trolling/abuse/etc
3240 2013-04-01 21:22:41 <TD> yeah
3241 2013-04-01 21:22:44 <TD> that's fair enough
3242 2013-04-01 21:23:09 <TD> i suppose the foundation blog will become a good way to communicate to important stakeholders
3243 2013-04-01 21:23:25 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: Is the postmortem official now?  I'll post about it on the forum if you like.
3244 2013-04-01 21:23:33 <gmaxwell> Some of the abuse there is really out of hand. :(
3245 2013-04-01 21:23:46 Perdos has joined
3246 2013-04-01 21:23:50 <Scrat> postmortem on what?
3247 2013-04-01 21:24:04 <gmaxwell> "When are you slackers going to finish washing my car? Don't you lazy assholes know how to get anything done?"
3248 2013-04-01 21:24:13 <TD> yeah, the dev forum needs tighter moderation
3249 2013-04-01 21:24:18 <TD> (it always did)
3250 2013-04-01 21:24:19 slacko3280 has joined
3251 2013-04-01 21:25:11 * TD uses the ignore button liberally
3252 2013-04-01 21:25:14 <gmaxwell> A number of people there don't seem to understand the difference between complaining civilly and acting like they were raised by wolves.
3253 2013-04-01 21:25:27 <warren> You have people trying to actively spread FUD on the forum to cause price movements.  Most of the time it is obvious, but the devs have more important things to do than to respond to trolls.
3254 2013-04-01 21:25:37 <gmaxwell> It does make me happy that a lot of the obnoxious posts come from people with bright orange ignore buttons.
3255 2013-04-01 21:26:27 <warren> Would it be beneficial for the forum to gain some kind of reputation system, or is that too easily gamed?
3256 2013-04-01 21:26:33 <gmaxwell> warren: I think the price manipulators are not that common, a lot of it is just from sincere but crazy people as far as I can tell.
3257 2013-04-01 21:26:46 <gmaxwell> warren: it has one. If people ignore you the ignore button lights up like a neon sign.
3258 2013-04-01 21:26:56 <warren> ooh
3259 2013-04-01 21:27:16 <gmaxwell> it's just kind of laggy, new obnoxious people take a while to light up.
3260 2013-04-01 21:27:29 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3261 2013-04-01 21:27:38 <sipa> reason: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f8/Internet_dog.jpg
3262 2013-04-01 21:27:49 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3263 2013-04-01 21:27:57 <gmaxwell> HM. "Maybe they _were_ raised by wolves"
3264 2013-04-01 21:28:11 <jgarzik> heh
3265 2013-04-01 21:28:19 i2pRelay has joined
3266 2013-04-01 21:28:20 cartermc24 has quit (Quit: cartermc24)
3267 2013-04-01 21:29:01 <TD> wolves that ate open source developers
3268 2013-04-01 21:29:54 <TD> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/9569550/Bitcoin%20Wallet%20Example.png
3269 2013-04-01 21:29:57 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, sincerely crazy people are the worst
3270 2013-04-01 21:29:57 <TD> what do you think of that?
3271 2013-04-01 21:30:04 * TD feels it's a bit cramped
3272 2013-04-01 21:30:06 <warren> Chicken little was raised by wolves apparently.
3273 2013-04-01 21:30:08 <redeeman> TD, what is HD wallets?
3274 2013-04-01 21:30:09 <TD> for some reason my brother loves it though
3275 2013-04-01 21:30:15 <TD> redeeman: deterministic wallets
3276 2013-04-01 21:30:18 <redeeman> ah okay
3277 2013-04-01 21:30:22 Xeno-Genesis has joined
3278 2013-04-01 21:30:56 meLon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3279 2013-04-01 21:32:17 <gmaxwell> sipa: did you see my comment on capping the badness of the HD wallet privkey backwards stepping by making the 'trunk' of the HD tree a regular CSPRNG?  It would add an unfortunate bit of additional code, but it would mean that common users who used only the trunk would never get the unwelcome surprise that a single privkey break breaks all.
3280 2013-04-01 21:32:53 slacko3280 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
3281 2013-04-01 21:33:07 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3282 2013-04-01 21:33:11 <gmaxwell> TD: I like the interface. In general I like interfaces other people call cramped, so take that for what you will.
3283 2013-04-01 21:33:14 grau has joined
3284 2013-04-01 21:33:18 <TD> hmm. ok.
3285 2013-04-01 21:33:40 <warren> https://data.mtgox.com/api/2/LTCUSD/money/ticker  <-- I'm guessing this is an April Fools joke...
3286 2013-04-01 21:34:15 bolapara_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3287 2013-04-01 21:34:23 <TD> warren: wouldn't be so sure
3288 2013-04-01 21:34:29 <TD> for some reason litecoin seems to be getting popular
3289 2013-04-01 21:34:47 slacko3280 has joined
3290 2013-04-01 21:35:18 gmatteson_ has joined
3291 2013-04-01 21:35:27 <sipa> gmaxwell: yes, i saw it, and i fear something like that will be necessary
3292 2013-04-01 21:35:48 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3293 2013-04-01 21:36:06 <sipa> gmaxwell: but i don't like breaking the elegance of a single derivation function :(
3294 2013-04-01 21:36:20 i2pRelay has joined
3295 2013-04-01 21:36:30 <gmaxwell> sipa: I think it wouldn't add too much code at least... use the same HMAC-SHA512 to generate the trunk keys. Indeed, it would be less elegant, and more likely to have implementation bugs.
3296 2013-04-01 21:36:51 <gmaxwell> (e.g. people who've never tested non-trunk keys)
3297 2013-04-01 21:37:19 <jgarzik> warren: I saw a link just today that said "our developer" at MtGox was considering alt-coins, though no plans at present
3298 2013-04-01 21:37:29 <jgarzik> warren: it was a response to a question, answered by MtGox staffer
3299 2013-04-01 21:37:36 <warren> ah
3300 2013-04-01 21:37:37 <Goonie> TD: Is your screenshot of an existing app?
3301 2013-04-01 21:37:37 <sipa> one way would be to say that child id's are signed, and that negative numbers correspond to private derivation
3302 2013-04-01 21:37:47 <TD> Goonie: no. it's just a mockup
3303 2013-04-01 21:38:22 <Goonie> TD: What's the graph good for?
3304 2013-04-01 21:38:27 <warren> TD: btw, I heard something about bitcoinj upstream not wanting to accept alt chain support.  Is this a concern about long-term maintenance?
3305 2013-04-01 21:38:31 <jgarzik> 2013-04-01 21:16:17 ERROR: CTransaction::CheckTransaction() : vin empty
3306 2013-04-01 21:38:31 <jgarzik> 2013-04-01 21:16:17 ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : CheckTransaction failed
3307 2013-04-01 21:38:32 <jgarzik> 2013-04-01 21:16:17 Misbehaving: 95.211.41.87:8333 (0 -> 10)
3308 2013-04-01 21:38:33 <jgarzik> heh
3309 2013-04-01 21:39:02 <gmaxwell> vin empty? someone trying to relay coinbases as transactions? :P
3310 2013-04-01 21:39:03 saivann_ has joined
3311 2013-04-01 21:39:06 slacko3280 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3312 2013-04-01 21:39:15 <sipa> even coinbases have a vin
3313 2013-04-01 21:39:25 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: what does getpeerinfo say that peer is?
3314 2013-04-01 21:39:28 saivann has quit (Read error: No route to host)
3315 2013-04-01 21:39:41 <Goonie> has coinbase fixed their blockchain forking problems?
3316 2013-04-01 21:39:47 <TD> warren: i'm unconvinced about merging support for litecoin. yes, for maintenance reasons. i don't want to end up with bug reports that are litecoin specific
3317 2013-04-01 21:40:00 <jgarzik>         "version" : 70001,
3318 2013-04-01 21:40:00 <jgarzik>         "subver" : "/Satoshi:0.8.1/",
3319 2013-04-01 21:40:00 <jgarzik>         "inbound" : false,
3320 2013-04-01 21:40:00 <jgarzik>         "releasetime" : 0,
3321 2013-04-01 21:40:00 <jgarzik>         "startingheight" : 229190,
3322 2013-04-01 21:40:01 <jgarzik>         "banscore" : 10
3323 2013-04-01 21:40:05 <TD> warren: given that i don't really grok its value or reasons for taking off, beyond "some people want to get in on a new bubble"
3324 2013-04-01 21:40:10 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: ^
3325 2013-04-01 21:40:13 <gmatteson_> Hi Guys, anyone interested in working on a project for me?
3326 2013-04-01 21:40:36 <jgarzik> gmatteson_: there tend to be more ideas than free time ;p
3327 2013-04-01 21:40:38 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: hm!
3328 2013-04-01 21:40:46 ToryJujube_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3329 2013-04-01 21:40:49 <warren> TD: thought so. I guess if they're serious they need to rebase to upstream often and write their own good tests.
3330 2013-04-01 21:41:00 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: couldn't be raw API misuse, as sendrawtransaction should reject that
3331 2013-04-01 21:41:02 <gmatteson_> unfortunately quite true
3332 2013-04-01 21:41:16 <gmatteson_> does cash help free up some time? :)
3333 2013-04-01 21:41:26 ToryJujube_ has joined
3334 2013-04-01 21:41:29 <Eliel> gmatteson_: the best way to find out is to explain your idea :)
3335 2013-04-01 21:41:34 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: should... someone was saying the other day that sendraw accepted a txn that didn't meet the relay rules though.
3336 2013-04-01 21:42:14 skytte_dk has joined
3337 2013-04-01 21:42:35 <gmatteson_> well, looking to pull stats from the bitcoin network and display it in a webpage just like coinlab.com or blockchain.info. javascript, some jquery or .net backend stuff
3338 2013-04-01 21:42:37 <TD> warren: yeah i'm OK with making it easier for them to rebase
3339 2013-04-01 21:42:51 <TD> warren: i don't want to get in their way. and i'm open to being convinced litecoin has value and should be supported
3340 2013-04-01 21:43:49 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3341 2013-04-01 21:43:51 <warren> TD: sounds reasonable
3342 2013-04-01 21:44:21 i2pRelay has joined
3343 2013-04-01 21:44:29 <jgarzik> TD: I'm a strong supporter of competition among alt-chains.  Crypto-currency is a new concept, and people should experiment.
3344 2013-04-01 21:44:54 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: mmm.  Wish they'd spend more time experimenting and less time reinventing wheels, though
3345 2013-04-01 21:45:11 <MC1984> no one has made a good case for what litecoin does
3346 2013-04-01 21:45:30 <gmaxwell> MC1984: it has what plants crave.
3347 2013-04-01 21:45:34 <TD> litecoin has two main changes, that i can see. one is scrypt. but you can do scrypt on GPUs and ASICs, so ….. seems that isn't a big difference.
3348 2013-04-01 21:45:39 <TD> the other change is 2.5 mins block time
3349 2013-04-01 21:45:42 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: Easy imitators always come first ("I did a search-n-replace 'satoshi' for 'jgarzik'!")
3350 2013-04-01 21:45:48 keystroke has joined
3351 2013-04-01 21:45:49 <TD> that difference is more interesting to me. but it seems neither here nor there.
3352 2013-04-01 21:45:50 <gmatteson_> question/clarification. where do various bitcoin exchanges get their market information from? is this information published to the bitcoin network via the algorithm? or does each exchange track its own buy/sell transactions and publish that info? my question is, how do multiple exchange coordinate the buy/sell value of the bitoin?
3353 2013-04-01 21:45:54 <TD> if they want to try it out, more power to them
3354 2013-04-01 21:45:59 <MC1984> gmaxwell seems to be about the jist of it
3355 2013-04-01 21:46:05 <Goonie> Well I like the anti-special-purpose-miner perk if that really works.
3356 2013-04-01 21:46:16 <sipa> gmaxwell: the mechanism they communicate through is called the free market
3357 2013-04-01 21:46:19 <sipa> eh, gmatteson_
3358 2013-04-01 21:46:57 <gmaxwell> gmatteson_: the exchanges themselves are not participating in the buying and selling, they're just a place where people holding assets meet and trade. They publish the results of that activity, and as sipa says— the users themselves are the communication between them,.
3359 2013-04-01 21:47:01 <jgarzik> I think litecoin is doomed because of scrypt+botnet
3360 2013-04-01 21:47:07 <jgarzik> but the timing choice was interesting
3361 2013-04-01 21:47:15 <warren> gavinandresen: It seems folks here aren't willing to try a tiered fee-based dust solutions, so I'm pushing hard to try that approach in litecoin.  Currently Litecoin's fees are extremely high in response to 2011 spamming.  They want to drop those fees with the hardfork.  I'm writing a way to drop "normal" tx fees while keeping dust fees too expensive.
3362 2013-04-01 21:47:41 <warren> I have no idea if LTC will survive.  Meanwhile I'm going to experiment there.
3363 2013-04-01 21:47:43 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: it should be noted that at least before 0.8 we were getting txn processing times in the bitcoin network that would have made 2.5 minutes result in an obvious increase in forking.
3364 2013-04-01 21:47:53 <MC1984> does litecoin have a testnet
3365 2013-04-01 21:48:06 <gmaxwell> MC1984: yes... dunno if anyone ever uses it.
3366 2013-04-01 21:48:22 <jgarzik> Speed of evolution also matters
3367 2013-04-01 21:48:43 <jgarzik> litecoin could self-correct with responsible yearly hard-forking
3368 2013-04-01 21:48:45 jdnavarro_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3369 2013-04-01 21:48:51 <gmatteson_> hmm... so if a new exchange were to come online, that exchagne would have coordinate market sharing info to all other exchnages?
3370 2013-04-01 21:49:05 <gmaxwell> Sadly, while every argument exists that litecoin could develop faster— the stakes are lower and the userbase is smaller— bitcoin seems to have better feture velocity.
3371 2013-04-01 21:49:23 <MC1984> gmatteson_ the people set the market price
3372 2013-04-01 21:49:26 <jgarzik> gmatteson_: A bitcoin exchange _is_ a market.  It gets its market information from... trades occuring on site.
3373 2013-04-01 21:49:27 <gmaxwell> gmatteson_: ... No. What do you think that would accomplish?
3374 2013-04-01 21:49:31 <MC1984> exchanges have nothing to do with it
3375 2013-04-01 21:50:03 impulse has joined
3376 2013-04-01 21:50:08 <MC1984> bitcoin is pure market forces thats the whole point
3377 2013-04-01 21:50:37 <TD> Goonie: what's that?
3378 2013-04-01 21:50:57 <Goonie> TD: I meant scrypt
3379 2013-04-01 21:51:04 <TD> oh right
3380 2013-04-01 21:51:49 viperhr1 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3381 2013-04-01 21:51:51 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3382 2013-04-01 21:51:58 <gmatteson_> right, people set the market price, but where does this info get published? how does mtgox show that value of the bitcoin at x $ and coinlab also show it at x$? does the price/value of the bitcoin get pushed to the peer to peer network?. for example, if i were to create a new exchange right now, where do i pull the value of the bitcoin from? if a user on this 'new' exchange sells for example 1,000,000 bitcoins and th
3383 2013-04-01 21:52:01 <gmaxwell> warren: perhaps the fact that it seems like fewer people in litecoin actually care about the technology you could actually get adopted some things that would be harder in bitcoin land.
3384 2013-04-01 21:52:04 <gmatteson_> hope i am explaining that correctly
3385 2013-04-01 21:52:12 <gmaxwell> warren: e.g. crap like my crazy blockspace prepayment stuff.
3386 2013-04-01 21:52:23 i2pRelay has joined
3387 2013-04-01 21:52:27 guruvan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3388 2013-04-01 21:52:40 <warren> gmaxwell: I can try to push anything that seems reasonable.
3389 2013-04-01 21:52:51 <HM> gmaxwell: it's just a pair of queues at fixed price points, those wanting to sell and those wanting to buy. the exchange matches them up, when it's done the market price is between the spread and bid price
3390 2013-04-01 21:52:51 <gmaxwell> gmatteson_: you got cut off at "for example 1,000,000 bitcoins and th"
3391 2013-04-01 21:52:58 <warren> gmaxwell: I'm also going to push a tiny fee penalty for non-compressed keys.
3392 2013-04-01 21:53:00 <HM> oops, gmatteson_ rather
3393 2013-04-01 21:53:04 <gmatteson_> change sells for example 1,000,000 bitcoins and this would have an impact on the market, how would mtgox or coinlab reflect that value on their exchanges if the transction takes place on this new exchange?
3394 2013-04-01 21:53:07 <HM> damn tab complete
3395 2013-04-01 21:53:11 <Eliel> gmatteson_: the bitcoin p2p network doesn't care about the exchange rate in the least.
3396 2013-04-01 21:53:14 <gmaxwell> gmatteson_: also, you need a new name, apparently we can only have one 'gm' user here.
3397 2013-04-01 21:53:17 <gmaxwell> :P
3398 2013-04-01 21:53:22 <graingert_> gmatteson_: The exchange doesn't push back to the network
3399 2013-04-01 21:53:34 <pigeons> gmatteson_: the exchanges do not care what the prices are on the other exchanges. they only care what users of their exchange are buying and selling for
3400 2013-04-01 21:53:40 <graingert_> gmatteson_: only bitcoin transactions when you withdraw
3401 2013-04-01 21:53:56 <graingert_> gmatteson_: the price listed is simply the "last price" that bitcoin sold for
3402 2013-04-01 21:54:04 <HM> what pigeons said, but market forces and arbitrage naturally synchronise pricing across exchanges in efficient markets
3403 2013-04-01 21:54:05 <gmatteson_> ahh so each exchange is indepented with their information
3404 2013-04-01 21:54:13 <MC1984> i suppos gox is the biggest price broker of bitcoin
3405 2013-04-01 21:54:14 <graingert_> gmatteson_: if you start a new exchange the price is whatever the first person makes a sale at
3406 2013-04-01 21:54:34 <sipa> until somewhere in 2010, bitcoins were traded for no value at all
3407 2013-04-01 21:54:58 <graingert_> gmatteson_: they are independent, but arbitrage links the prices somewhat
3408 2013-04-01 21:55:00 <HM> $100 / nil = infinite growth!
3409 2013-04-01 21:55:04 <gmatteson_> gotcchaaa
3410 2013-04-01 21:55:11 <graingert_> !google arbitrage
3411 2013-04-01 21:55:11 <MC1984> gmatteson_ do you know what arbitrage is
3412 2013-04-01 21:55:16 <gribble> Arbitrage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitrage>; Arbitrage (film) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitrage_(film)>; Arbitrage (2012) - IMDb: <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1764183/>
3413 2013-04-01 21:55:18 <jgarzik> anyway
3414 2013-04-01 21:55:21 <graingert_> jgarzik: :D
3415 2013-04-01 21:55:26 <jgarzik> this is getting way off topic
3416 2013-04-01 21:55:35 <graingert_> gmatteson_: this is better in #bitcoin
3417 2013-04-01 21:55:36 <pjorrit_> is that movie any good? ;D
3418 2013-04-01 21:55:37 <gmatteson_> i dont. thank for the link
3419 2013-04-01 21:55:39 <HM> jgarzik: how goes the rpc/multiprocess work?
3420 2013-04-01 21:55:54 <graingert_> !google foo | HM
3421 2013-04-01 21:56:00 <gribble> H&M | H&M US: <http://www.hm.com/us/>; H&M offers fashion and quality at the best price: <http://www.hm.com/>; Ladies' fashion clothing | Women's clothes & accessories | H&M US: <http://www.hm.com/us/department/LADIES>
3422 2013-04-01 21:56:04 <graingert_> hmm
3423 2013-04-01 21:56:09 <MC1984> wot
3424 2013-04-01 21:56:20 <HM> oh noes, my secret business dealings revealed
3425 2013-04-01 21:56:27 <graingert_> I thought that might do what the Ubottu bot does
3426 2013-04-01 21:56:30 <graingert_> but alas
3427 2013-04-01 21:56:40 <graingert_> OOTT
3428 2013-04-01 21:57:00 <graingert_> (Off Off-Topic Topic)
3429 2013-04-01 21:57:20 <warren> gmaxwell: where is your "crazy blockspace prepayment stuff" written down?
3430 2013-04-01 21:57:22 <jgarzik> HM: just pushed no-op skeleton forking code
3431 2013-04-01 21:57:24 <jgarzik> https://github.com/jgarzik/bitcoin/tree/fork
3432 2013-04-01 21:57:32 Guest86799 has quit (Quit: Has quit)
3433 2013-04-01 21:57:34 <jgarzik> will be pushed the split later this week, I hope
3434 2013-04-01 21:57:36 <jgarzik> *pushing
3435 2013-04-01 21:57:58 <gmaxwell> warren: on my big list of altchain things
3436 2013-04-01 21:58:00 <gmatteson_> anyone interested in programming a web frontend for displaying bitcoin info?
3437 2013-04-01 21:58:16 c00w is now known as c00w1
3438 2013-04-01 21:58:27 <MC1984> blockchain.info
3439 2013-04-01 21:58:29 graingert_ is now known as graingert
3440 2013-04-01 21:58:32 <jgarzik> btccharts
3441 2013-04-01 21:58:32 c00w1 is now known as c00w
3442 2013-04-01 21:58:34 <jgarzik> bitcoincharts
3443 2013-04-01 21:58:41 <jgarzik> bitcoinwatch
3444 2013-04-01 21:58:42 <gmatteson_> yup, just like both of those blockchain.fin and btccharts
3445 2013-04-01 21:58:54 <HM> listentobitcoin
3446 2013-04-01 21:58:56 <graingert> gmatteson_ -> #bitcoin
3447 2013-04-01 21:59:33 <Luke-Jr> I'd suggest #bitcoin-otc actually
3448 2013-04-01 21:59:53 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3449 2013-04-01 21:59:54 <gmatteson_> okay
3450 2013-04-01 21:59:57 <gmatteson_> thanks
3451 2013-04-01 21:59:58 <graingert> Luke-Jr: good point, gmatteson_ you'd have to pay someone to make that service
3452 2013-04-01 22:00:06 <gmatteson_> correct
3453 2013-04-01 22:00:11 <gmatteson_> ill pay for the work
3454 2013-04-01 22:00:25 i2pRelay has joined
3455 2013-04-01 22:00:33 <graingert> gmatteson_: perhaps you should try saying that in #bitcoin-otc
3456 2013-04-01 22:00:42 <sipa> then it's probably off-topic here :)
3457 2013-04-01 22:00:45 <gmatteson_> i know .net but no expiernece with jquery or java
3458 2013-04-01 22:00:50 <gmatteson_> okay thanks guys appreicate the advice
3459 2013-04-01 22:01:04 <graingert> gmatteson_: perhaps you should try saying that in #java or #javascript
3460 2013-04-01 22:01:48 <CodeShark> btw, gmatteson_, jquery and java only have part of their name in common :p
3461 2013-04-01 22:02:01 <gmatteson_> haha
3462 2013-04-01 22:02:08 <CodeShark> other than that and a little bit of that C-like syntax, they have nothing in common
3463 2013-04-01 22:02:23 <graingert> CodeShark: they both are run on VMs
3464 2013-04-01 22:02:34 <HM> they both start with J
3465 2013-04-01 22:02:38 idstam has quit ()
3466 2013-04-01 22:02:46 <CodeShark> yep - and there the similarity ends
3467 2013-04-01 22:02:47 <graingert> HM: that was already mentioned
3468 2013-04-01 22:02:55 <HM> pfft
3469 2013-04-01 22:03:17 <graingert> hmmmstrange: can you change your nick, there can only be one hm nick here
3470 2013-04-01 22:04:33 <HM> heh
3471 2013-04-01 22:04:47 <HM> jgarzik: why did you chose to use a pipe()?
3472 2013-04-01 22:05:35 <HM> my gut would have been to go with a socketpair()
3473 2013-04-01 22:05:42 <jgarzik> HM: easier model to port to Windows
3474 2013-04-01 22:05:53 <jgarzik> (and I've done it 1000 times, honestly... habit)
3475 2013-04-01 22:06:14 <graingert> jgarzik: HM: are we suddenly back on topic?
3476 2013-04-01 22:06:27 <jgarzik> HM: still in "what is the fastest way to get from zero to working?" mode
3477 2013-04-01 22:06:30 <jgarzik> graingert: yes :)
3478 2013-04-01 22:06:43 <HM> fair enough
3479 2013-04-01 22:06:48 <graingert> jgarzik: Coffee and electrotherapy
3480 2013-04-01 22:06:49 <jgarzik> graingert: talking about the fork(2) work in https://github.com/jgarzik/bitcoin/tree/fork
3481 2013-04-01 22:07:00 <jgarzik> eventually hoping to separate network node/blockchain from RPC/wallet
3482 2013-04-01 22:07:02 <HM> I abandoned windows so usually go through hell porting later
3483 2013-04-01 22:07:51 MWNinja is now known as bitninja_
3484 2013-04-01 22:07:56 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3485 2013-04-01 22:08:23 <graingert> jgarzik: got a wiki page for that?
3486 2013-04-01 22:08:28 i2pRelay has joined
3487 2013-04-01 22:09:22 crashoveride2 has joined
3488 2013-04-01 22:09:54 Trader838 has joined
3489 2013-04-01 22:10:16 <Trader838> anyone knwo whats up with instawallet? i had some transaction not register on the network. think this had something to do with it?
3490 2013-04-01 22:11:34 AlbertTuring has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
3491 2013-04-01 22:11:46 <graingert> Trader838: TX id?
3492 2013-04-01 22:12:18 <Trader838> instwallet dosent give u them
3493 2013-04-01 22:12:49 <warren> lots of great reasons to not use instawallet
3494 2013-04-01 22:13:16 <graingert> Trader838: hmm, bad news
3495 2013-04-01 22:13:21 <skinnkavaj> https://bitcoin-central.net/
3496 2013-04-01 22:13:22 <skinnkavaj> Thank god
3497 2013-04-01 22:13:24 <graingert> Trader838: how long's it been
3498 2013-04-01 22:13:35 graingert is now known as gmatteson
3499 2013-04-01 22:13:35 <Trader838> yea i found alot of old coins in an instawallet the other day
3500 2013-04-01 22:13:38 polrpaul has joined
3501 2013-04-01 22:14:06 <Trader838> spent 3, tried to spend the others, they listed as sent from my instawallet but no sign of them on the network
3502 2013-04-01 22:14:08 gmatteson is now known as graingert
3503 2013-04-01 22:14:09 <Trader838> over 24hrs
3504 2013-04-01 22:14:30 lodse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3505 2013-04-01 22:15:03 sebumd has joined
3506 2013-04-01 22:15:25 jaequery has joined
3507 2013-04-01 22:15:37 <jaequery> where can i get realtime bitcoin ticks?
3508 2013-04-01 22:15:56 c00w has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
3509 2013-04-01 22:15:58 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3510 2013-04-01 22:16:13 skytte_dk has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3511 2013-04-01 22:16:30 i2pRelay has joined
3512 2013-04-01 22:17:32 <EvilPete> jaequery: does http://bitcoinity.org/markets work for you?  how about http://bitcoin.clarkmoody.com/ ?
3513 2013-04-01 22:17:55 tyn has joined
3514 2013-04-01 22:18:12 <helo> what's a better tool than jackjack's pywallet for removing unconfirmed transactions from a wallet?
3515 2013-04-01 22:18:20 sebumd has left ("Leaving")
3516 2013-04-01 22:18:20 <jaequery> need realtime xml/json ticks
3517 2013-04-01 22:18:50 Muis has joined
3518 2013-04-01 22:18:56 john5223 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3519 2013-04-01 22:19:08 <neo2> Is it safe to print a paper private key and send to the public address coins until I want to spend them, then I have to scan them?
3520 2013-04-01 22:19:10 wallet421 has joined
3521 2013-04-01 22:19:19 <crashoveride2> how do you make bitcoin client stop sending a tx?
3522 2013-04-01 22:19:33 <EvilPete> jaequery: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/MtGox/API ?
3523 2013-04-01 22:19:44 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3524 2013-04-01 22:20:41 wallet42 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3525 2013-04-01 22:20:49 <EvilPete> neo2: yes, but be careful, it doesn't work like a bank balance. When you spend, an entire incoming transaction is consumed, a new address is generated, and the change sent to that address.
3526 2013-04-01 22:21:44 <EvilPete> neo2: an address is not the same as a wallet.
3527 2013-04-01 22:22:14 <neo2> EvilPete, so it's safer/more standard to backup the entire wallet?
3528 2013-04-01 22:22:21 <sipa> neo2: absolutely
3529 2013-04-01 22:22:29 <neo2> How can the Armory client backup an entire wallet with such a small key?
3530 2013-04-01 22:22:42 <sipa> neo2: they generate an entire wallet from a single secret seed
3531 2013-04-01 22:22:44 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3532 2013-04-01 22:22:54 <sipa> neo2: this is a feature planned in bitcoin-qt as well
3533 2013-04-01 22:23:12 <EvilPete> neo2: they use a deterministic seed to generate all the keys.  if you know the seed you can tell what future private keys will be
3534 2013-04-01 22:23:31 <neo2> sipa, oic. so it reads the entire blockchain to recreate the wallet?
3535 2013-04-01 22:24:00 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3536 2013-04-01 22:24:13 <bwen> but doesnt all addresses have their own private keys tho...
3537 2013-04-01 22:24:31 davout has joined
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3539 2013-04-01 22:24:31 davout has joined
3540 2013-04-01 22:24:31 i2pRelay has joined
3541 2013-04-01 22:24:34 <phantomcircuit> sipa, can we all agree that when people ask about deterministic wallets in the future, we just claim it's magic
3542 2013-04-01 22:24:44 davout has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3543 2013-04-01 22:24:45 <phantomcircuit> and then be super serious and get offended when they ask how it really works
3544 2013-04-01 22:24:48 <neo2> EvilPete, so that scheme could only work with keys created in advance with one seed in mind, right?
3545 2013-04-01 22:24:49 <phantomcircuit> pleassssssseeeeeeeee
3546 2013-04-01 22:24:49 <EvilPete> bitcoin-qt generates the "change" private keys from secure random sources.  armory/etc dont generate random private keys at all.  the only thing random is the initial seed.
3547 2013-04-01 22:25:11 <sipa> phantomcircuit: ACK
3548 2013-04-01 22:25:16 <neo2> phantomcircuit, wait after appril's fools
3549 2013-04-01 22:25:23 <sipa> phantomcircuit: do realize that in my timezone it is 00:03 april 2nd
3550 2013-04-01 22:26:19 <phantomcircuit> bwen, a private key is just a 256 bit number
3551 2013-04-01 22:26:33 cartermc24 has joined
3552 2013-04-01 22:26:39 <phantomcircuit> sipa, this isn't an april fools thing
3553 2013-04-01 22:26:44 <phantomcircuit> im just tired of the question
3554 2013-04-01 22:27:07 <EvilPete> helo: crashoveride2: unconfirmed tx's are already floating around the bitcoin network and will expire over time.  You can't recall them.  All you can do is create a double spend with higher priority (eg: add a ton more fees) to cause the network to chose the fee one over the old one.
3555 2013-04-01 22:27:17 Perdos has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3556 2013-04-01 22:27:22 <sipa> G&*@&$& ubuntu
3557 2013-04-01 22:27:29 Anduck has joined
3558 2013-04-01 22:27:30 Anduck has quit (Changing host)
3559 2013-04-01 22:27:30 Anduck has joined
3560 2013-04-01 22:27:31 <sipa>  gcc-4.6 : Conflicts: gcc-4.6:i386
3561 2013-04-01 22:27:34 <sipa> ...
3562 2013-04-01 22:27:37 <Luke-Jr> O.o
3563 2013-04-01 22:27:40 B0g4r7 has joined
3564 2013-04-01 22:28:01 <phantomcircuit> sipa, ahaha
3565 2013-04-01 22:28:06 <warren> sipa: Join Fedora =)
3566 2013-04-01 22:28:08 <helo> EvilPete: this one is so old that it isn't shown anywhere
3567 2013-04-01 22:28:11 Guest38454 has joined
3568 2013-04-01 22:28:25 <Luke-Jr> warren: such a great idea! OpenSSL without ECDSA!
3569 2013-04-01 22:28:32 <SomeoneWeird> Luke-Jr, lold
3570 2013-04-01 22:28:36 <SomeoneWeird> was waiting for that
3571 2013-04-01 22:28:43 <Guest38454> Hey can I ask someone some questions about bit moose?
3572 2013-04-01 22:28:50 <Luke-Jr> never heard of it
3573 2013-04-01 22:28:57 <EvilPete> helo: export the private keys, back up / rename the wallet, re-import the keys?
3574 2013-04-01 22:28:59 mapppum has joined
3575 2013-04-01 22:29:07 <sipa> Luke-Jr: you have any idea _what_ i want to compile with gcc-4.6:i386? :)
3576 2013-04-01 22:29:07 Perdos has joined
3577 2013-04-01 22:29:13 bitbit has joined
3578 2013-04-01 22:29:18 <warren> Luke-Jr: he's halfway done with an openssl replacement, so maybe it'll get done faster that way. =)
3579 2013-04-01 22:29:19 <devDelay> anyone update their order at bfl?
3580 2013-04-01 22:29:27 <devDelay> *upgrade
3581 2013-04-01 22:29:28 <Luke-Jr> sipa: no? that's basically my standard compiler..
3582 2013-04-01 22:29:30 Guest38454 has quit (Client Quit)
3583 2013-04-01 22:29:48 Guest38454 has joined
3584 2013-04-01 22:29:56 <bitbit>  hello!  anyone have the code error  -4 when importing private key on qt v0.8.1-beta?
3585 2013-04-01 22:29:57 <sipa> Luke-Jr: my library that can replace openssl/ec :)
3586 2013-04-01 22:30:08 <sipa> bitbit: most likely you have it imported already
3587 2013-04-01 22:30:14 <Luke-Jr> Guest38454: most developers/miners use Linux
3588 2013-04-01 22:30:16 <neo2> what happens if someone backups his bitcoin-qt wallet with the Armory?
3589 2013-04-01 22:30:26 <sipa> neo2: the wallets are incompatible
3590 2013-04-01 22:30:59 <bitbit> how verifie is allready imported?
3591 2013-04-01 22:31:12 <sipa> ?
3592 2013-04-01 22:31:14 <neo2> sipa, so you have to send the coins to a new address?
3593 2013-04-01 22:31:28 <sipa> bitbit: oh, do validateaddress <address> (without the <>)
3594 2013-04-01 22:31:31 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3595 2013-04-01 22:31:38 _anon has quit (Quit: _anon)
3596 2013-04-01 22:31:48 <sipa> bitbit: it should say isMine : true if it's already imported
3597 2013-04-01 22:32:02 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3598 2013-04-01 22:32:10 <bitbit> im gonna test now
3599 2013-04-01 22:32:15 <Guest38454>  Hello, can I maybe ask someone a few questions about bit moose?
3600 2013-04-01 22:32:33 i2pRelay has joined
3601 2013-04-01 22:32:41 <sipa> wth is bit noose?
3602 2013-04-01 22:32:53 <redeeman> apparantly a mining thing
3603 2013-04-01 22:32:56 <redeeman> https://bitmoose.codeplex.com/
3604 2013-04-01 22:33:14 <Luke-Jr> if the website didn't look legit, I'd have guessed a trojan
3605 2013-04-01 22:33:21 <TD> http://www.listentobitcoin.com/
3606 2013-04-01 22:33:23 <TD> haha
3607 2013-04-01 22:33:24 <redeeman>  haha someone is planning to do mining on company/school computers :P
3608 2013-04-01 22:33:30 <Luke-Jr> TD: you're like 2 days late!
3609 2013-04-01 22:33:38 <TD> better late than never!
3610 2013-04-01 22:33:59 <neo2> redeeman, people used to do it in their work desktop for free elec.  but it worked only in the earlier days :-P
3611 2013-04-01 22:34:01 Trader838 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3612 2013-04-01 22:34:10 <redeeman> yeah i can imagine
3613 2013-04-01 22:34:42 <Goonie> Hmm something like this has been demonstrated at the Berlin Hack and Tell 2 years ago... #listentobitcoin
3614 2013-04-01 22:34:52 <bitbit> "isvalid" : true, "address" : "xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx", "ismine" : true, "isscript" : false, "pubkey" : "xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx", "iscompressed" : true, "account" :
3615 2013-04-01 22:35:00 <jgarzik> sipa: I can autoconf your lib for you, if you'd like
3616 2013-04-01 22:35:04 <TD> Luke-Jr: it's amusing that the transactions are in bubbles
3617 2013-04-01 22:35:04 <Luke-Jr> Goonie: nobody there
3618 2013-04-01 22:35:06 <bitbit> i have this like result
3619 2013-04-01 22:35:19 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3620 2013-04-01 22:35:24 <Luke-Jr> TD: I'm a hypocrit. I've seen many references to it, but I've never opened the site myself XD
3621 2013-04-01 22:35:25 <sipa> bitbit: so it's already imported
3622 2013-04-01 22:35:31 <sipa> jgarzik: really? :D
3623 2013-04-01 22:35:37 <jgarzik> sipa: looks simple enough
3624 2013-04-01 22:35:46 <gmaxwell> autoconfing that is trivial.
3625 2013-04-01 22:35:49 BlackPrapor has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
3626 2013-04-01 22:35:56 <gmaxwell> sipa: you work on x86 yet?
3627 2013-04-01 22:35:57 <bitbit> ok and now i can use another cleint?
3628 2013-04-01 22:35:57 <sipa> if you know autoconfig, i'm sure it is
3629 2013-04-01 22:36:10 <sipa> gmaxwell: just committed a version that *should* work on 32-bit
3630 2013-04-01 22:36:16 <Anduck> does testnet have its own bitcoin.conf?
3631 2013-04-01 22:36:26 <Goonie> luke-jr: where?
3632 2013-04-01 22:36:36 <Luke-Jr>  #listentobitcoin
3633 2013-04-01 22:37:03 <TD> the sound for a block is rather nice
3634 2013-04-01 22:37:08 <bitbit> need unistal qt client for install another program wallet?
3635 2013-04-01 22:37:11 <Goonie> it was just a hashtag
3636 2013-04-01 22:37:36 <Goonie> could be a block of ice
3637 2013-04-01 22:37:43 <Luke-Jr> …
3638 2013-04-01 22:37:57 <Goonie> whooo, there is a big one!
3639 2013-04-01 22:38:36 <bwen> Anduck: what I do is create a .bitcoin.testnet folder with a specific bitcoin.conf in it for testnet and then when starting bitcoin-qt you use the -data-dir= to that folder
3640 2013-04-01 22:38:41 <bwen> works like a charm
3641 2013-04-01 22:38:51 <sipa> jgarzik: there's essentially 3 parameters: a) the field implementation (USE_FIELD_10X26, USE_FIELD_5X52_ASM, or default), b) the num implementation (USE_NUM_GMP or USE_NUM_OPENSSL), c) which field inverse to use (USE_FIELD_INVERSE_BUILTIN or default)
3642 2013-04-01 22:38:59 <Anduck> bwen: ok, thx
3643 2013-04-01 22:39:16 <jgarzik> sipa: are there any programs, even if simple test programs?  or only build output is a lib?
3644 2013-04-01 22:39:25 * jgarzik just started reading the Makefile
3645 2013-04-01 22:39:32 <sipa> jgarzik: you can build a bench tool, a test tool, or the lib
3646 2013-04-01 22:39:43 <sipa> the makefile is a bit contrived now
3647 2013-04-01 22:39:56 <sipa> as it tries to build every combination basically
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3650 2013-04-01 22:40:57 bitbit has left ()
3651 2013-04-01 22:42:55 <TD> 13,000 bitcoin tx
3652 2013-04-01 22:42:58 <TD> bubble filled the screen
3653 2013-04-01 22:43:03 <TD> i wish they were clickable
3654 2013-04-01 22:43:23 <Goonie> TD: I even saw pixels
3655 2013-04-01 22:43:42 <Goonie> are pixels equivalent to satoshis?
3656 2013-04-01 22:43:44 <TD> no clue
3657 2013-04-01 22:45:04 <Goonie> btw. whats the consensus on how we will be expressing bitcoin values in future? Will we really need to deal with "mBTC"s? Millibitcoins? Ugly...
3658 2013-04-01 22:45:21 <TD> probably
3659 2013-04-01 22:45:38 <Luke-Jr> Goonie: TBC
3660 2013-04-01 22:45:43 <TD> lol
3661 2013-04-01 22:45:58 <TD> so 10 mBTC is a dollar?
3662 2013-04-01 22:46:04 <TD> 1 mBTC is 10 cents?
3663 2013-04-01 22:46:28 * lianj hopes the fee goes down
3664 2013-04-01 22:46:33 <TD> i guess the "Bridgewalker" design will be more popular
3665 2013-04-01 22:46:37 <Luke-Jr> hmm, thoughts on defaulting Bitcoin-Qt to mBTC?
3666 2013-04-01 22:46:37 <TD> where you just always deal with pegged values
3667 2013-04-01 22:46:53 <Goonie> hopefully we will be soon paying in satoshis only. That's a nice name.
3668 2013-04-01 22:46:56 <TD> Luke-Jr: these things should be controllable via signed broadcasts. same for default fee recommendations.
3669 2013-04-01 22:47:06 <sipa> eww
3670 2013-04-01 22:47:26 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3671 2013-04-01 22:47:36 <Luke-Jr> TD: just have miners publish a pubkey in blocks
3672 2013-04-01 22:47:42 <bwen> are transaction fees going to scale when a satoshi is going to be worth 1$ ? :P
3673 2013-04-01 22:47:55 <TD> sipa: let me guess, you don't like the decentralization?
3674 2013-04-01 22:48:03 <TD> er
3675 2013-04-01 22:48:05 <TD> s/de//
3676 2013-04-01 22:48:08 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3677 2013-04-01 22:48:09 orblivion has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3678 2013-04-01 22:48:26 orblivion has joined
3679 2013-04-01 22:48:27 <sipa> i don't want some network instance (centralized or not) to change settings on my computer!
3680 2013-04-01 22:48:37 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
3681 2013-04-01 22:48:40 i2pRelay has joined
3682 2013-04-01 22:48:44 <deego> bwen: By that time, the bitcoin network will be used for really large consolidated transactions. For everyday transactions, services will emerge.
3683 2013-04-01 22:48:47 <TD> if you have your app set to "default", then why not?
3684 2013-04-01 22:49:04 <TD> you're already indicating "accept whatever the developer thought reasonable"
3685 2013-04-01 22:49:09 <TD> if you change it then sure, ignore the broadcasts
3686 2013-04-01 22:49:15 <gmaxwell> Yes, but not accepting them changing at unspecified times!
3687 2013-04-01 22:50:53 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3688 2013-04-01 22:50:55 andytoshi has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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3693 2013-04-01 22:52:05 <jgarzik> sipa: what license?
3694 2013-04-01 22:52:49 <sipa> jgarzik: MIT is fine
3695 2013-04-01 22:53:03 <sipa> (i have acks on that from all contributors :p)
3696 2013-04-01 22:54:54 one_zero has joined
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3728 2013-04-01 23:13:11 <sipa> anyone here with a system (same hardware) with both 32-bit and 64-bit environment, including gmp?
3729 2013-04-01 23:13:17 * sipa doesn't look at Luke-Jr
3730 2013-04-01 23:13:21 <muhoo> "services will emerge" sounds like a pretty big handwave to me
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3736 2013-04-01 23:17:00 <shamoon> when i load the satoshi client for the first time, it downloads the blockchain
3737 2013-04-01 23:17:03 <shamoon> and stores in a level-db
3738 2013-04-01 23:17:05 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'll have it tested in a few.
3739 2013-04-01 23:17:06 <shamoon> where does it download from?
3740 2013-04-01 23:17:20 <sipa> from its peers
3741 2013-04-01 23:17:28 <shamoon> torrent style?
3742 2013-04-01 23:17:29 <shamoon> or linear?
3743 2013-04-01 23:17:34 <sipa> linear
3744 2013-04-01 23:17:42 <shamoon> from 1 peer or many?
3745 2013-04-01 23:17:45 <SomeoneWeird> many
3746 2013-04-01 23:17:50 <sipa> not really
3747 2013-04-01 23:18:03 <sipa> it downloads block data from any peer that offers it
3748 2013-04-01 23:18:11 <sipa> but when synchronizing, it picks one to sync from
3749 2013-04-01 23:18:25 <sipa> changing that is certainly planned, but not really easy in the current mechanism
3750 2013-04-01 23:18:27 theymos has joined
3751 2013-04-01 23:18:31 <SomeoneWeird> oh, did that change or has it always been like that?
3752 2013-04-01 23:18:32 <shamoon> so it'll find a peer, let's say... sipa, and say "hey, give me the next block"?
3753 2013-04-01 23:18:32 <SomeoneWeird> hm
3754 2013-04-01 23:19:18 <sipa> shamoon: it's rather "hey, what blocks do you have after X", and he answers "i have block X and Y and Z", but there'sno information about how those are linked or which is best
3755 2013-04-01 23:19:25 <gmaxwell> sipa: it's benchmarking
3756 2013-04-01 23:19:34 <sipa> so the client then says "ah, i don't know either... give me all of them"
3757 2013-04-01 23:19:54 <sipa> and when it reaches the end it says "ok, what blocks after Z?", and the game resumes
3758 2013-04-01 23:19:56 Optimus-Prime has quit (Quit: Optimus-Prime)
3759 2013-04-01 23:20:11 <sipa> but this is essentially from one peer, as you can't parallellize downloads if you don't know what to download
3760 2013-04-01 23:20:11 <shamoon> so your client gives my client all the blocks it has after X
3761 2013-04-01 23:20:15 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3762 2013-04-01 23:20:34 <sipa> gmaxwell: thanks
3763 2013-04-01 23:20:39 <shamoon> up to the most recent. now my client will continue to ask your client.. what do you have after Z? to which you'll reply: nothing
3764 2013-04-01 23:20:41 canoon has joined
3765 2013-04-01 23:20:43 <shamoon> then i'll check another peer?
3766 2013-04-01 23:20:47 i2pRelay has joined
3767 2013-04-01 23:20:48 <sipa> no
3768 2013-04-01 23:20:54 <sipa> it just asks one
3769 2013-04-01 23:21:00 <sipa> however
3770 2013-04-01 23:21:05 <shamoon> so if you have nothing after Z, my client is happy with that?
3771 2013-04-01 23:21:12 <shamoon> even if there's a Z1, Z2, etc, out there?
3772 2013-04-01 23:21:17 <sipa> if a new block is found on the network, and some peer announces that
3773 2013-04-01 23:21:27 <sipa> your client will go "hey, i don't have that, gimme!"
3774 2013-04-01 23:21:35 <shamoon> so a peer will say "hey guys, i have a new block!" and that'll spread to all it's peers
3775 2013-04-01 23:21:36 <shamoon> and it's peers
3776 2013-04-01 23:21:38 <shamoon> and on and on
3777 2013-04-01 23:21:53 <sipa> and when it is downloaded, it will realize "woah, i don't have its parents either", and it'll ask the originator for parents
3778 2013-04-01 23:22:02 <gmaxwell> right, it only announces it if it accepts it itself.
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3780 2013-04-01 23:22:28 oru is now known as oruu
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3782 2013-04-01 23:22:51 <sipa> gmaxwell: bench-gmpasm runs in 96s here
3783 2013-04-01 23:23:04 <sipa> bench-gmp in 125 or so, afaik
3784 2013-04-01 23:23:15 <gmaxwell> it's taking much longer than that...
3785 2013-04-01 23:23:24 <sipa> bench-gmp32 (but on 64-bit) is around 1.5 times slower
3786 2013-04-01 23:24:10 <sipa> what hardware?
3787 2013-04-01 23:24:12 <gmaxwell> seems like it's about 4 minutes so far.
3788 2013-04-01 23:24:31 <gmaxwell> my current laptop i7-3520M
3789 2013-04-01 23:24:36 <gmaxwell> it's up at 6 minutes now.
3790 2013-04-01 23:24:48 <sipa> doesn't sound promising
3791 2013-04-01 23:25:08 <sipa> that's bench-gmp32 in 32-bit, you're trying?
3792 2013-04-01 23:25:37 Z0rZ0rZ0r1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3793 2013-04-01 23:26:09 <gmaxwell> sipa: yup.
3794 2013-04-01 23:26:16 <gmaxwell> $ time ./bench-gmp32
3795 2013-04-01 23:26:16 <gmaxwell> 0/1000000
3796 2013-04-01 23:26:17 <shamoon> i <3 bitcoin
3797 2013-04-01 23:26:19 <gmaxwell> user    7m12.739s
3798 2013-04-01 23:26:30 <gmaxwell> thats cc -Wall -m32 -Wno-unused -fPIC -std=c99 -DUSE_NUM_GMP -DUSE_FIELD_10X26 -DNDEBUG -O2 -march=native src/bench.c -lgmp  -o bench-gmp32
3799 2013-04-01 23:27:32 <sipa> gmaxwell: can you run bench-gmp in 64-bit mode on the same hardware?
3800 2013-04-01 23:27:58 <gmaxwell> sure
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3803 2013-04-01 23:27:58 <graingert> sipa: when a client discovers a block, why doesn't it include the block in the announce?
3804 2013-04-01 23:27:58 <graingert> or does it?
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3808 2013-04-01 23:32:05 <sipa> gmaxwell: the time spent in GMP should only be 10% or so
3809 2013-04-01 23:32:58 <gmaxwell> I'll profile.
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3811 2013-04-01 23:33:06 <sipa> cool
3812 2013-04-01 23:33:09 * sipa zZzZ
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3832 2013-04-01 23:37:09 <shamoon> whats up defunctzombie?
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3848 2013-04-01 23:43:16 <redeeman> uhm, does the listtransactions work in reverse with count/from?
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3908 2013-04-01 23:51:38 <redeeman> i dont understand how listtransactions work
3909 2013-04-01 23:51:58 <redeeman> the count/from appears very strange, if i do: listtransactions "*" 1 0 it shows me a different first one than listtransactions "*" 1000 0
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3920 2013-04-01 23:53:42 <bwen> you need to provide an account label
3921 2013-04-01 23:53:42 balrog has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3922 2013-04-01 23:53:46 <bwen> which was used to create the addresses
3923 2013-04-01 23:54:09 <sipa> no
3924 2013-04-01 23:54:10 <bwen> redeeman: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Api
3925 2013-04-01 23:54:17 <sipa> "*" means all accounts
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3930 2013-04-01 23:54:35 <redeeman> i do use * already, which works
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3932 2013-04-01 23:54:49 BlueWall has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3933 2013-04-01 23:54:51 <redeeman> what confuses me is that the from= appears to do it in the opposite order than one would expect?
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3935 2013-04-01 23:55:10 <bwen> oh ic, good to know xD
3936 2013-04-01 23:55:17 <sipa> redeeman: i'm not very familiar with the details of that call, but i've heard that before
3937 2013-04-01 23:55:23 BlueWall has joined
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3939 2013-04-01 23:55:38 <redeeman> this kinda makes it very hard to use, given you cannot know how many transactions there are total
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3945 2013-04-01 23:57:34 <redeeman> "Returns up to [count] most recent transactions skipping the first [from] transactions for account [account]. "
3946 2013-04-01 23:57:47 <redeeman> what really happens, seems to be that it skips the LAST [from] transactions
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