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   2 2013-04-02 00:00:54 <owowo> Instawallet hacked?! Here is wher I keep myBitcoin! http://bit.ly/WVJhxg ;o)
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  61 2013-04-02 00:37:12 <etotheipi__> gmaxwell, sipa :  about that BIP 32 thing... what about defining a non-homomorphic CKD, and use the top bit of the child identifier to decide which one to use?
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  66 2013-04-02 00:38:24 <gmaxwell> etotheipi__: maybe.. more work to enumerate them blindly from the seed, I guess.
  67 2013-04-02 00:38:26 <sipa> etotheipi__: i was thinking exactly the same thing :)
  68 2013-04-02 00:38:39 <etotheipi__> gmaxwell: I don't think so
  69 2013-04-02 00:38:53 <etotheipi__> it will still be "convention" to use non-homomorphic for, say, the first two levels
  70 2013-04-02 00:39:02 <etotheipi__> and if you are using a standard wallet, you know where to look
  71 2013-04-02 00:39:36 <sipa> i suppose that in a generic implementation, it could be a flag associated with each node
  72 2013-04-02 00:39:42 <sipa> to determine the type of subkey to look for
  73 2013-04-02 00:40:04 <etotheipi__> just use the high bit for it...? (essentially negative numbers for the other kind)
  74 2013-04-02 00:40:22 <sipa> well it could be two entirely separate namespaces too
  75 2013-04-02 00:40:37 <etotheipi__> I think the spec is fine with 2 billion possible children per node instead of 4 billion
  76 2013-04-02 00:40:39 <sipa> though for the sake of encoding ease, it's nice to have it as part of the child id
  77 2013-04-02 00:41:22 <etotheipi__> it makes sense that you would have to unlock your wallet to create new ones, anyway
  78 2013-04-02 00:41:43 <etotheipi__> or rather, it's not unexpected if that's a requirement
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  84 2013-04-02 00:43:02 <etotheipi__> the only thing is there's no "alternate" for zero
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  89 2013-04-02 00:46:26 <etotheipi__> well, if you're just using the high bit, I guess there is... you would just have to write it  m/-1/-0 and m/-1/-1 are your internal and external chains of the 2nd wallet
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  91 2013-04-02 00:47:07 <gmaxwell> -0 0_o
  92 2013-04-02 00:47:09 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: sipa: this look ok? http://codepad.org/J0l4yIBh
  93 2013-04-02 00:47:18 <etotheipi__> yes, -0
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  96 2013-04-02 00:49:01 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: why are you even fast looping there? Also…  else\nif < @#$@#@
  97 2013-04-02 00:49:21 <gmaxwell> (thats boobytrap code)
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 102 2013-04-02 00:51:12 <etotheipi__> it has a kind of elegance to it... built-in type-1 or type-2 wallets
 103 2013-04-02 00:52:14 <gmaxwell> The important part is that it doesn't push type-2 on cases where it provides no benefit but potentially has increased risks.
 104 2013-04-02 00:52:26 robocoin has quit (Quit: ╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻)
 105 2013-04-02 00:52:45 <gmaxwell> The concerning part is that I really don't want to expose users to that distinction so much as can be avoided.
 106 2013-04-02 00:53:29 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: no loop, just lets me break out
 107 2013-04-02 00:53:44 duckybsd has joined
 108 2013-04-02 00:53:44 <gmaxwell> I want to be able to have a good UI where the user can specify if they want a "one time use address" or an "address for multiple payments"
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 112 2013-04-02 00:55:25 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: what is the latter for?
 113 2013-04-02 00:55:34 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: some kind of HD pubkey seed?
 114 2013-04-02 00:55:53 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: Its what users would give to a mining pool for example, so the pool can make reoccuring payments to them— but each payment to a new address.
 115 2013-04-02 00:56:03 <Luke-Jr> i c
 116 2013-04-02 00:56:03 <gmaxwell> Yep.
 117 2013-04-02 00:56:22 <Luke-Jr> would be nice if there was a way to setup recurring payments too
 118 2013-04-02 00:56:29 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 119 2013-04-02 00:56:30 <gmaxwell> Or you'd give one to the forum so that it can generate addresses for you.
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 121 2013-04-02 00:57:57 <sipa> hmm, can you do mutual recursion?
 122 2013-04-02 00:58:02 zrad has joined
 123 2013-04-02 00:58:09 <sipa> derive a type-1 from a type-2 from a type-1 from a type-2
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 125 2013-04-02 00:58:35 <sipa> i guess yes
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 135 2013-04-02 01:03:51 <bitcoin-noob> Very naive here; I'm trying to understand the BTC security model. Specifically, when block validation is done, how many previous blocks are checked for validity? Could a very well resourced attacker double spend, and then 'bury' the bad transactions behind enough blocks to escape notice?
 136 2013-04-02 01:04:21 <sipa> all of them, ever
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 138 2013-04-02 01:04:54 <bitcoin-noob> So, every new block is validated against all previous, every time?
 139 2013-04-02 01:05:36 <sipa> no, you have already validated all former ones
 140 2013-04-02 01:05:41 <sipa> your client knows they are valid
 141 2013-04-02 01:05:54 <sipa> a new block is validated against the current state
 142 2013-04-02 01:06:02 <k9quaint> my client is a nitwit, it can't tell a block from a loading GIF
 143 2013-04-02 01:06:18 <sipa> lol
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 145 2013-04-02 01:06:57 <Luke-Jr> bitcoin-noob: basically the blockchain is an ongoing coroutine
 146 2013-04-02 01:06:58 <bitcoin-noob> Where in the code is this done? I see a call to 'haveCoin in ::accept; so the miner's db contains the entire history of transactions?
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 150 2013-04-02 01:07:23 <sipa> bitcoin-noob: not only miners, every full node
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 152 2013-04-02 01:07:45 <sipa> and the blockchain is that history, so yes, of course
 153 2013-04-02 01:08:01 techlife has joined
 154 2013-04-02 01:08:04 <sipa> but what is maintained is a set of unspent transaction outputs, with their value and script (~address)
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 156 2013-04-02 01:08:14 <svara> actually, why is this done? wouldn't it suffice to check recent blocks, i.e. a sufficient number to know you have the consensus branch and not a fork?
 157 2013-04-02 01:08:36 <sipa> svara: there is no cost in not forgetting that former blocks were valid
 158 2013-04-02 01:08:58 <sipa> and you must process them ones, to know what coins they introduced that can be spent later
 159 2013-04-02 01:09:04 <bitcoin-noob> The attack I'm worried about about involves a 'bad' miner (with huge resources) double spending, and then winning the race to validate that block and the next one; do others double check, or do they just validate the hash/
 160 2013-04-02 01:09:19 <sipa> full nodes always validate everything
 161 2013-04-02 01:09:29 <sipa> they will never accept an invalid transaction or block
 162 2013-04-02 01:09:53 <Luke-Jr> bitcoin-noob: Bitcoin is not a miner democracy, it is an autonomy in every full node
 163 2013-04-02 01:10:10 <sipa> they only thing that cannot be deterministically validated is in the case of two conflicting transactions, which was first
 164 2013-04-02 01:10:21 <sipa> as two nodes may see them in a different order
 165 2013-04-02 01:10:22 <Luke-Jr> basically, to be part of bitcoin, every node must agree on and enforce the same rules
 166 2013-04-02 01:10:50 <sipa> and that is why the blockchain existd: it is a voting mechanism for miners to grow to a consensus about the order of (otherwise valid) transactions
 167 2013-04-02 01:11:09 <sipa> and the deeper something is buried in the chain, the harder it is to change
 168 2013-04-02 01:11:27 <sipa> but everything in every accepted chain is always validated for correctness, apart from that ordering
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 170 2013-04-02 01:11:55 <svara> sipa, so you could have a client that doesn't validate transactions but relies on other nodes to do that, which would still allow you to spend and receive as long as you start out with a 0-balance wallet, right?
 171 2013-04-02 01:12:15 <sipa> svara: that sounds +- like an SPV client
 172 2013-04-02 01:12:17 <sipa> svara: so yes
 173 2013-04-02 01:12:24 tyn has joined
 174 2013-04-02 01:12:27 <sipa> multibit and bitcoin wallet for android work that way
 175 2013-04-02 01:12:37 <svara> ok
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 177 2013-04-02 01:12:53 <sipa> they just follow the longest chain, but assume that no invalid transactions make it into the chain
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 179 2013-04-02 01:13:43 <bitcoin-noob> My concern is a nation-level bad actor making bad transactions, and burying them by winning the race to validate the block in which they appear, and one or more subsequent blocks. You're saying that there's no point at which the non-winners say' thats too far back, I won't check it'?
 180 2013-04-02 01:13:50 graingert_ has joined
 181 2013-04-02 01:13:55 <sipa> indeed
 182 2013-04-02 01:14:00 <sipa> full nodes would reject such a chain
 183 2013-04-02 01:14:07 <sipa> however long it is
 184 2013-04-02 01:14:26 Conflict_ is now known as Conflict
 185 2013-04-02 01:14:30 <gmaxwell> bitcoin-noob: bitcoin is really a zero-trust system except for ordering, full nodes validate _everything_ for themselves and trust nothing.
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 187 2013-04-02 01:15:12 <gmaxwell> If we could make ordering autonomous too we'd do that, alas— thats impossible.
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 189 2013-04-02 01:15:19 <sipa> damn you einstein
 190 2013-04-02 01:15:29 <bitcoin-noob> thanks, this is very helpful. Any particular place in the codebase this is explicated? I've been poking through bitcoin-master.
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 192 2013-04-02 01:16:03 <svara> so these might become standard if the block chain becomes too big to e.g. fit on consumer harddrives... which makes me wonder whether a sufficiently large pool of full nodes will still be sustained when the mining reward becomes very low
 193 2013-04-02 01:16:10 <graingert_> gmaxwell: ordering?
 194 2013-04-02 01:16:35 <gmaxwell> graingert_: the order in which transactions happened.
 195 2013-04-02 01:16:39 <sipa> graingert_: yes, the one thing that miners decide: ordering of otherwise valid transactions (up to delaying indefinitely)
 196 2013-04-02 01:16:48 <graingert_> ah
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 198 2013-04-02 01:17:10 <graingert_> svara: the miners only need unspent outputs
 199 2013-04-02 01:17:20 <graingert_> svara: not the whole chain, afaik
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 201 2013-04-02 01:17:30 <sipa> in theory, indeed
 202 2013-04-02 01:17:52 <graingert_> svara: it's only client bootstrap that needs the whole chain
 203 2013-04-02 01:18:11 <sipa> yup, and exactly for this reason: not trusting anything
 204 2013-04-02 01:18:25 <gmaxwell> svara: thats one of the risks— though it's a risk we can't gain accidentally. Right now blocks have a hard maximum size that limits the growth to 50GiB/yr, which is small enough that I believe what you're describing can basically never be a problem.  But those limits have their own problems. Ideally the transaction load will be balanced against resource consumption to achieve optimal pratical decentralization.
 205 2013-04-02 01:19:14 <gmaxwell> svara: right now the risk is that the blockspace can be too small, and then it becomes expensive to get transactions processed in acceptable time.
 206 2013-04-02 01:20:17 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 207 2013-04-02 01:20:24 <gmaxwell> Though for all kinds of practical reasons people will also transact in bitcoin externally to the blockchain,  so it's not clear exactly how the the limits interact with the economy.
 208 2013-04-02 01:20:25 <kjdbjfsbdf> is setting maxconnections a decent way to throlle my upload bandwidth?
 209 2013-04-02 01:20:49 <kjdbjfsbdf> *throttle
 210 2013-04-02 01:20:53 copumpkin has joined
 211 2013-04-02 01:20:56 <gmaxwell> kjdbjfsbdf: it would control the peak at least— I normally recommend turning off listening.
 212 2013-04-02 01:21:08 <gmaxwell> (to people concerned about bandwidth usage)
 213 2013-04-02 01:21:28 <kjdbjfsbdf> ~it's sucking up about 450kb/sec which is prohibitive for me when i'm justing running a node
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 218 2013-04-02 01:23:38 <jgarzik> kjdbjfsbdf: -nolisten is a fine solution
 219 2013-04-02 01:24:07 <kjdbjfsbdf> thanks i'll try that before i set a lower maxconnection
 220 2013-04-02 01:24:09 <graingert_> kjdbjfsbdf: throttle with software firewall?
 221 2013-04-02 01:24:10 <jgarzik> sipa, gmaxwell: has anyone poked at peer selection and IBD lately?  any branches to look at?
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 223 2013-04-02 01:25:00 <gmaxwell> graingert_: please don't advise people to do that
 224 2013-04-02 01:30:23 <etotheipi__> gmaxwell: I don't see a problem with the "distinction" between type-1 and type-2, if there's a prescribed convention
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 226 2013-04-02 01:30:49 <etotheipi__> gmaxwell: implementors have to understand it, and will when they implement it... users don't need to care
 227 2013-04-02 01:30:58 <etotheipi__> the distinction only matters for doing unuusal things
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 229 2013-04-02 01:31:20 <etotheipi__> for now, all addresses would be m/-i/-j/k for i-th wallet, j-th chain, k-th address
 230 2013-04-02 01:31:43 <gmaxwell> etotheipi__: Implementors are unavoidable (though some will get it wrong).
 231 2013-04-02 01:32:19 <etotheipi__> gmaxwell: but my point is that the users don't need to care about the distinction between the 'notation" m/-i/-j/k and m/i/j/k
 232 2013-04-02 01:32:27 LainZ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 233 2013-04-02 01:32:33 <etotheipi__> they just know they have a deterministic wallet and all addresses are backed up by their piece of paper
 234 2013-04-02 01:32:53 <gmaxwell> etotheipi__: We have usecases for type-2 that we care about... so "all addresses" .. nope. When all were type-2 there is no distinction, not so if both are supported.
 235 2013-04-02 01:32:53 <etotheipi__> they won't even see the m/i/j/k stuff
 236 2013-04-02 01:33:10 <gmaxwell> Sure. I didn't think they would.
 237 2013-04-02 01:33:20 <bitcoin-noob> (I've been mulling over your answers....). I certainly can see that a bad transaction can't be 'buried' in the long run, but could a nation level attacker double spend, and win the race to extend the block chain long enough (2-3 blocks) to move the ill-gotten gains along to another ID? While the crime would be apparent, it might be too late to reverse it. I'm sorry to go on about this...
 238 2013-04-02 01:33:32 <gmaxwell> It's just now when you generate an address you need to know what kind you want vs generate an address and obtain the extended key for it.
 239 2013-04-02 01:33:32 <etotheipi__> what do you mean "all address" are not backed up?
 240 2013-04-02 01:34:17 <gmaxwell> etotheipi__: 18:09 < etotheipi__> for now, all addresses would be m/-i/-j/k for i-th wallet, j-th chain, k-th address
 241 2013-04-02 01:34:21 <gmaxwell> is where my quote was from.
 242 2013-04-02 01:34:23 <etotheipi__> oh
 243 2013-04-02 01:34:39 <sipa> bitcoin-noob: i don't think you understand; an invalid transaction or a block with an invalid transaction is simply rejected: ignored completely by the network
 244 2013-04-02 01:34:39 <etotheipi__> type-2 is still supported
 245 2013-04-02 01:34:44 <sipa> bitcoin-noob: as if it never existed
 246 2013-04-02 01:34:45 <gmaxwell> You're saying all would be type-1. And I'm saying they wouldn't be: we want to let people pull out type-2 addresses for 'stuff'.
 247 2013-04-02 01:34:57 <etotheipi__> gmaxwell: of course we want type-2 addresses
 248 2013-04-02 01:35:00 <sipa> bitcoin-noob: mining a block with an invalid transaction in it, is effectively removing yourself from the system
 249 2013-04-02 01:35:01 <etotheipi__> m/-i/-j/+k
 250 2013-04-02 01:35:13 <etotheipi__> the - indicates type-1, the + indicates type-2
 251 2013-04-02 01:35:22 <bitcoin-noob> thanks
 252 2013-04-02 01:35:38 <gmaxwell> etotheipi__: so now the user has to know which kind they want when they generate an address.
 253 2013-04-02 01:35:46 <svara> ok thanks for all of your answers, i'd have some more questions but it's getting late ;)
 254 2013-04-02 01:36:00 <etotheipi__> gmaxwell: no... it's convention that we always use m/-/-/+
 255 2013-04-02 01:36:11 <etotheipi__> unless it's explicitly stated otherwise
 256 2013-04-02 01:36:13 <gmaxwell> etotheipi__: ah!
 257 2013-04-02 01:36:45 <gmaxwell> wait no. thats still my complaint.
 258 2013-04-02 01:36:45 <sipa> so maybe the sign shouldn't be the type of the derivation itself, but the type of the derivation of its children?
 259 2013-04-02 01:37:19 <gmaxwell> etotheipi__: Basically I want a user to get an address and not know when they get it which way it will be used. Then if they want to use it as a type-2 they get the extended key too.
 260 2013-04-02 01:37:22 tyn has joined
 261 2013-04-02 01:37:28 <bitcoin-noob> Thanks, I won't bother you again (tonight :-)
 262 2013-04-02 01:37:41 <etotheipi__> gmaxwell: so you're saying they shouldn't care about the depth of the address?
 263 2013-04-02 01:37:59 <etotheipi__> i.e. if I give you "child X', you don't know if it's m/X, or m/i/j/X
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 265 2013-04-02 01:38:36 <gmaxwell> etotheipi__: I'm saying that the normal behavior should be to have all keys generated be a type-1 key which is the root of a new type-2 subchain.
 266 2013-04-02 01:38:44 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 267 2013-04-02 01:39:01 <gmaxwell> so that if you only use it as type-1 you have full type-1 security. But if you want to use it as type-2 you can do that just by obtaining the extended key.
 268 2013-04-02 01:39:16 i2pRelay has joined
 269 2013-04-02 01:40:04 <gmaxwell> etotheipi__: Do you have any thoughts on idea of having the UI characterize these cases as "one time use addresses" and "multiuse addresses"?
 270 2013-04-02 01:40:18 <etotheipi__> gmaxwell: so everything would be two hops?  m/-i/+i/-j/+j/-k/+k?
 271 2013-04-02 01:40:29 <etotheipi__> in my weird notation I just made up
 272 2013-04-02 01:41:05 <gmaxwell> Your notation has lost me someplace in i/j space. Now I don't know if I'm an engineer or a mathematician anymore!
 273 2013-04-02 01:41:14 keystroke has joined
 274 2013-04-02 01:41:14 <etotheipi__> yeah, we need a better system
 275 2013-04-02 01:41:23 <sipa> wait wait
 276 2013-04-02 01:41:25 <etotheipi__> define it for me, then use it
 277 2013-04-02 01:41:31 <sipa> are we talking quaternions?
 278 2013-04-02 01:41:34 <etotheipi__> haha
 279 2013-04-02 01:41:45 <etotheipi__> good call sipa
 280 2013-04-02 01:41:51 <etotheipi__> ij=-k
 281 2013-04-02 01:42:17 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 282 2013-04-02 01:42:19 <gmaxwell> "High dimensional wallets"
 283 2013-04-02 01:42:33 <etotheipi__> gmaxwell: what I was thinking was... given a particular extended key, there's two ways it can go:  type-1 derivation or type-2 derivation
 284 2013-04-02 01:42:42 kjdbjfsbdf has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 285 2013-04-02 01:42:59 <etotheipi__> you always have the extended key, but the only question is whether the next key is produced by EC multiplication or by non-invertible funciton
 286 2013-04-02 01:43:10 <etotheipi__> (of the private key)
 287 2013-04-02 01:43:20 <gmaxwell> Right. Which way it's children can go, and which way it came about.
 288 2013-04-02 01:43:21 svara has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 289 2013-04-02 01:43:23 <etotheipi__> so then the HD wallet spec is more of a language to define these trees
 290 2013-04-02 01:43:41 <etotheipi__> and we all mutually agree on a set of standard ways to use this language
 291 2013-04-02 01:44:02 <gmaxwell> My only real concern with the spec relative to this is that if the branching factor is too high it becomes computationally expensive to recover a wallet.
 292 2013-04-02 01:44:06 XRPTrader2 has quit (Quit: XRPTrader2)
 293 2013-04-02 01:44:40 <etotheipi__> gmaxwell: and my point was that you haven't actually increased that branching factor, because the wallet would say (or by default) be type-1/type-1/type-2
 294 2013-04-02 01:44:48 <etotheipi__> for the three levels
 295 2013-04-02 01:44:58 <etotheipi__> it would be a property of the wallet
 296 2013-04-02 01:45:18 <etotheipi__> people could get silly in their own little DIY worlds... but standardize to that case
 297 2013-04-02 01:45:39 <etotheipi__> errr ... standardize to *a* case
 298 2013-04-02 01:46:11 <gmaxwell> okay, and then in the normal cases  a wallet application would issue out x/y++/0 like addresses?
 299 2013-04-02 01:46:27 <etotheipi__> wait, what notation are you using ?
 300 2013-04-02 01:46:38 <etotheipi__> ooh
 301 2013-04-02 01:46:45 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 302 2013-04-02 01:46:49 <gmaxwell> I'm suggesting incrementing along a type-1 dimension there.
 303 2013-04-02 01:46:50 <sipa> Maxwell equations, obviously.
 304 2013-04-02 01:46:51 bitcoin-noob has left ()
 305 2013-04-02 01:46:59 <etotheipi__> sipa: haha
 306 2013-04-02 01:47:10 nsillik has joined
 307 2013-04-02 01:47:17 i2pRelay has joined
 308 2013-04-02 01:47:23 <gmaxwell> The idea being that every address you get is a type-1 root for a potential type-2 chain.  If you don't use it as type-2, fine. If you do, fine.
 309 2013-04-02 01:47:44 <sipa> s/address/node/
 310 2013-04-02 01:48:43 <sipa> (i'm trying to root out the use of the term 'address' for anything that isn't intended as a payment destination)
 311 2013-04-02 01:51:07 <gmaxwell> sipa: I mean, you ask the wallet for a payment destination. Each destination has two addresses: a single use address (the address), and a multiuse address (an extended key).  These destinations themselves should be type-1 derived.
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 315 2013-04-02 01:52:59 rdponticelli_ is now known as rdponticelli
 316 2013-04-02 01:53:01 <gmaxwell> an interesting question is change handling. If you made it always use change which was parallel derrived from the root of an address, then an export private key / import private key would be safer,  but that falls over as soon as someone spends from >1 chains (then its not clear which change address to use).
 317 2013-04-02 01:53:12 B0g4r7 has joined
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 321 2013-04-02 01:55:37 andrew12_ is now known as andrew12
 322 2013-04-02 01:58:02 <licnep> question, can the 21 million bitcoin limit be lifted if the nodes with the majority of the computing power in the network agree?
 323 2013-04-02 01:59:17 <sipa> no
 324 2013-04-02 02:00:15 <licnep> wouldn't a hardfork allow that? (without creating an alternative chain)
 325 2013-04-02 02:00:21 eralardz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 326 2013-04-02 02:00:30 <gmaxwell> licnep: has nothing to do with a majority.
 327 2013-04-02 02:00:33 <sipa> a hardfork means per definition switching to a chain with different rules
 328 2013-04-02 02:00:46 <sipa> and yes, in a hard fork everything is possible
 329 2013-04-02 02:00:48 <gmaxwell> A hardfork lets you turn bitcoin into paypal.
 330 2013-04-02 02:01:00 <gmaxwell> (* a front end to paypal, if you will)
 331 2013-04-02 02:01:08 <sipa> but a hardfork also means that every node in the network must upgrade
 332 2013-04-02 02:01:09 <licnep> i thought a hardfork could be done while keeping the same chain
 333 2013-04-02 02:01:21 <Luke-Jr> nope
 334 2013-04-02 02:01:27 <sipa> it can build on the old chain at some point
 335 2013-04-02 02:01:43 <sipa> and ideally, the old rules aren't used anymore by any miners at that point
 336 2013-04-02 02:01:44 <Luke-Jr> you could preserve the old coins, but it's a new chain
 337 2013-04-02 02:01:56 <licnep> i see, makes sense
 338 2013-04-02 02:02:04 <gmaxwell> licnep: you could create a licnep-coin which copies the bitcoin history as of— say— tomorrow, and then has totally different rules, like all spends on it must be 50% to you. And you could go on happily using that...
 339 2013-04-02 02:02:19 <gmaxwell> and if you convinced other people to use it.. then well, they'd be using it.
 340 2013-04-02 02:02:38 <licnep> gmaxwell: brb creating licnep-coin
 341 2013-04-02 02:02:39 <gmaxwell> but all the people not using it would be unaffected except for the loss of whatever people switched.
 342 2013-04-02 02:02:48 <licnep> yea
 343 2013-04-02 02:02:50 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 344 2013-04-02 02:03:22 <sipa> i'd call it nioc-licnep
 345 2013-04-02 02:03:22 i2pRelay has joined
 346 2013-04-02 02:03:26 <licnep> cool stuff
 347 2013-04-02 02:03:31 <gmaxwell> And, a lot of people wouldn't even switch.. they'd just use licnep-coin long enough to sell the coin they owned there and they'd flee as fast as possible— at least with those rules. :P
 348 2013-04-02 02:03:34 mapppum has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 349 2013-04-02 02:03:43 <licnep> sipa: i like that, hard to pronounce tho
 350 2013-04-02 02:04:00 <licnep> gmaxwell: hehe
 351 2013-04-02 02:04:03 <gmaxwell> how the heck did you notice that licnep was pencil backwards?!
 352 2013-04-02 02:04:14 <licnep> gmaxwell: cause he's smarter than you
 353 2013-04-02 02:04:18 <gmaxwell> Apparently!
 354 2013-04-02 02:04:40 <sipa> it probably means i need sleep
 355 2013-04-02 02:04:42 mapppum has joined
 356 2013-04-02 02:04:58 <sipa> anyway, i got bench-gmp32 compiled here for 32bit too.. 9 minutes :(
 357 2013-04-02 02:05:00 <licnep> nah
 358 2013-04-02 02:05:42 <gmaxwell> sipa: profile shows it's not gmp thats my problem.
 359 2013-04-02 02:05:57 <sipa> anyway, that's _still_ faster than 64-bit openssl
 360 2013-04-02 02:06:08 <sipa> but only a bit
 361 2013-04-02 02:07:00 <gmaxwell> I wonder how fast 32 bit openssl is? I think we had some evidence that it was slower?
 362 2013-04-02 02:07:21 <sipa> iirc it was 2x slower than the 64-bit version on the same platform
 363 2013-04-02 02:07:23 sheldor has joined
 364 2013-04-02 02:07:40 <sipa> though i remember one test that showed it was 5x slower, but couldn't replicate that experiment
 365 2013-04-02 02:07:41 <gmaxwell> callgrind says most of the time is in _fe_mul (42% of the total)
 366 2013-04-02 02:07:41 <sheldor> hi this is more of a technical question, nobody in #bitcoin could answer it
 367 2013-04-02 02:07:56 <sipa> gmaxwell: and second most in _fe_sqr, i hope
 368 2013-04-02 02:07:59 <sheldor> my understanding is that mining software is constantly hashing a "candidate block" by altering an otherwise meaningless random number within it and hashing this candidate block, hoping to produce a hash smaller than the target
 369 2013-04-02 02:08:12 <sipa> sheldor: correct
 370 2013-04-02 02:08:21 <sheldor> how often exactly do the meaningful contents of the candidate block change?
 371 2013-04-02 02:08:31 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 372 2013-04-02 02:08:40 <sipa> any time you want to change the transactions in it
 373 2013-04-02 02:08:51 <sheldor> or "how long" does a miner try with the same candidate block
 374 2013-04-02 02:09:06 <sipa> you _have_ to change when a new block is found, and you want to switch to working on that (you do!)
 375 2013-04-02 02:09:22 <sheldor> im trying to understand whether it makes sense to coordinate mining across different machines so you dont waste time on hashing the same candidate blocks
 376 2013-04-02 02:09:22 <sipa> but afaik current miners keep work in the order of seconds
 377 2013-04-02 02:09:31 <gmaxwell> sheldor: Your line of question is common for people who misunderstand the hashing process and think that work is conserved.  It doesn't matter if the meaningful content or the meaningless content change... any change gives you a totally different hash.. so each try is independant.  As far as how often the meaningful stuff changes, as often as you like, once per second e.g. from updating the timestamp isn't too uncommmon.
 378 2013-04-02 02:09:32 <sipa> sheldor: you never try the same twice
 379 2013-04-02 02:09:39 <sheldor> but if say CBs change every second or so anyway then it wouldnt matter much
 380 2013-04-02 02:09:52 <sipa> sheldor: each miner works on a different subset
 381 2013-04-02 02:10:13 <sheldor> gmaxwell: it does in the sense if the meaningful contents are static for some time and i use separate machines then i dont want them to use identical nonces
 382 2013-04-02 02:10:18 <gmaxwell> sheldor: regardless of the things that change, everyone should be working on something entirely different with no real risk of overlap. E.g. working on candidates that pay to different private keys.
 383 2013-04-02 02:10:18 <sheldor> sipa: oh
 384 2013-04-02 02:10:27 <sheldor> ah interesting
 385 2013-04-02 02:10:48 <sheldor> so (candidate block - nonce) is never really the same on different machines ever
 386 2013-04-02 02:10:51 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 387 2013-04-02 02:10:52 <sipa> indeed
 388 2013-04-02 02:10:57 <sheldor> thanks :)
 389 2013-04-02 02:11:23 i2pRelay has joined
 390 2013-04-02 02:11:52 <sipa> gmaxwell: what after _fe_mul and _fe_sqr?
 391 2013-04-02 02:11:55 <sheldor> whats the best read to understand the internals really that isnt the source code?
 392 2013-04-02 02:12:25 <ErnestoJuarell> wiki?
 393 2013-04-02 02:12:58 ayalan has joined
 394 2013-04-02 02:13:16 <sheldor> not really technical
 395 2013-04-02 02:13:29 <sheldor> is there a spec or something?
 396 2013-04-02 02:13:44 <gmaxwell> the order by 'self' results for an O2 build,  _fe_mul then gej_double with 14% and gej_add with 11.51 then 8.8% with fe_sqr.  Though this is cachegrind results.. may not be completely accurate.
 397 2013-04-02 02:13:46 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 398 2013-04-02 02:13:57 <gmaxwell> sheldor: there is plenty of technical information on the bitcoin wiki (not wikipedia)
 399 2013-04-02 02:14:15 <sheldor> ah thanks
 400 2013-04-02 02:15:12 <gmaxwell> sipa: then gej_add_ge with 3.6% and fe_normalize with 3.37%  then fe_sqr_inner with 1.68% and then hmpn_hgcd2 with 1.11%.
 401 2013-04-02 02:15:47 <sheldor> gmaxwell: the "working on a subset" is the reason every machine works on a different candidate right? since privkey would be the same if the machines work for me
 402 2013-04-02 02:15:51 <sipa> gmaxwell: would you mind checking whether that distribution is similar on 64-bit?
 403 2013-04-02 02:16:03 <gmaxwell> sipa: no problem.
 404 2013-04-02 02:16:19 <sipa> gmaxwell: i'm surprised by how much time in mul vs sqr
 405 2013-04-02 02:16:36 <gmaxwell> sipa: also note  I decreased the tests by 10x so the setup may be biasing it some — but I wanted it to finish this month. :P
 406 2013-04-02 02:16:38 <sheldor> also how exactly is that subset chosen by the mining software and how often does it change?
 407 2013-04-02 02:17:03 guest6125 has joined
 408 2013-04-02 02:17:05 <sipa> sheldor: there is an 'extranonce' inside the coinbase transaction, which is modified to produce different sets of work
 409 2013-04-02 02:17:09 <gmaxwell> sheldor: the normal way software does this is that every time it hands out new work it increments the extra_nonce in the coinbase.
 410 2013-04-02 02:17:20 Ogig has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 411 2013-04-02 02:17:34 <sheldor> ah.. well
 412 2013-04-02 02:17:42 <gmaxwell> then you can go off and do 4 billion operations before getting another one.
 413 2013-04-02 02:17:53 <sheldor> that possibly means i could save some time by using the same extranonce across different machines no?
 414 2013-04-02 02:18:01 <redeeman> is the speed of big importance?
 415 2013-04-02 02:18:09 <gmaxwell> sheldor: huh? no. Why do you think this?
 416 2013-04-02 02:18:28 <sheldor> gmaxwell: nvm
 417 2013-04-02 02:18:39 <sipa> sheldor: a normal CPU can produce 10000s of 'work units' per second from the same block data
 418 2013-04-02 02:18:39 <sheldor> you are right
 419 2013-04-02 02:18:49 <sipa> wasting a bit won't hurt
 420 2013-04-02 02:18:51 guest6125 has quit (Client Quit)
 421 2013-04-02 02:18:51 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 422 2013-04-02 02:19:18 <gmaxwell> sipa: a run of gmp or gmp32 on 64bit?
 423 2013-04-02 02:19:22 <sheldor> btw, does a nonce exist for every candidate so the hash meets the target?
 424 2013-04-02 02:19:23 i2pRelay has joined
 425 2013-04-02 02:19:27 <gmaxwell> No.
 426 2013-04-02 02:19:32 gagecolton2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 427 2013-04-02 02:19:36 <sipa> gmaxwell: gmp
 428 2013-04-02 02:19:41 <gmaxwell> right, see what I said when you entered. :P
 429 2013-04-02 02:19:49 <sheldor> or are there candidates which can never be solved
 430 2013-04-02 02:19:51 gagecolton has joined
 431 2013-04-02 02:20:05 <gmaxwell> sheldor: at the current difficulty most work units don't have a solution
 432 2013-04-02 02:20:06 <sheldor> probably hard to prove
 433 2013-04-02 02:20:17 <sheldor> gmaxwell: ah, and the miner tries all nonces?
 434 2013-04-02 02:20:27 <sheldor> then increments the extranonce
 435 2013-04-02 02:20:27 <sipa> around 1 in 6 million has a solution
 436 2013-04-02 02:20:34 <sipa> then asks for more work
 437 2013-04-02 02:20:45 <gmaxwell> sheldor: sure. And some times there are many solutions...
 438 2013-04-02 02:21:03 <sheldor> by "work unit" i assume you mean candidate+nonce? by "candidate" i mean work unit minus nonce
 439 2013-04-02 02:21:17 <sipa> sheldor: no, i mean excluding the nonce
 440 2013-04-02 02:21:20 <sipa> ;;bc,diff
 441 2013-04-02 02:21:20 <gribble> Error: "bc,diff" is not a valid command.
 442 2013-04-02 02:21:23 <sheldor> okay makes sense
 443 2013-04-02 02:21:23 <sipa> ;;diff
 444 2013-04-02 02:21:28 <gribble> 6695826.282596251
 445 2013-04-02 02:21:42 <sheldor> ;;target
 446 2013-04-02 02:21:42 <gribble> I do not know about 'target', but I do know about these similar topics: 'trade'
 447 2013-04-02 02:21:50 <sipa> ;;calc [diff]*2**48/65535
 448 2013-04-02 02:21:56 <gribble> 28758793727815336
 449 2013-04-02 02:22:07 <sipa> ^ sheldor: 1 hash in that many is good
 450 2013-04-02 02:22:15 <sheldor> :)
 451 2013-04-02 02:22:17 <gmaxwell> sheldor: that question is also indicative of someone who thinks work is conserved. :P It's not— there is no progress to a solution the more you work on a particular candidate.
 452 2013-04-02 02:22:38 <sheldor> gmaxwell: yeah i realized that after you asked how it makes sense
 453 2013-04-02 02:23:33 <sheldor> gmaxwell: and that was my initial question. if for example candidates stayed the same across machines and for some time there would be a noition of conservation in that already tried nonces could be skipped in the future
 454 2013-04-02 02:24:04 <sheldor> but you told me there isnt
 455 2013-04-02 02:24:15 <gmaxwell> well certantly you don't want to try the same one twice, but because work isn't conserved its trivial to arrange it so that you dont- just work on entirely different subspaces.
 456 2013-04-02 02:24:26 <sheldor> yeah
 457 2013-04-02 02:24:36 root2_ is now known as root2
 458 2013-04-02 02:25:07 <sheldor> so how exactly is the subspace chosen and/or how does a miner acquire his "work units"?
 459 2013-04-02 02:25:49 <sheldor> like who does he "ask for more work"?
 460 2013-04-02 02:26:12 <gmaxwell> sheldor: it's initially defined by what private key the mining node is paying to
 461 2013-04-02 02:26:31 <gmaxwell> and then every time that mining node needs to produce more work he increments a counter.
 462 2013-04-02 02:26:33 <sheldor> btw dont you mean public key?
 463 2013-04-02 02:26:47 <gmaxwell> sheldor: there is a bijection there.
 464 2013-04-02 02:26:52 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 465 2013-04-02 02:26:58 <gmaxwell> I should have equally just said 'what key'.
 466 2013-04-02 02:27:02 <sheldor> yeah but the privkey probably isnt written into the block right?
 467 2013-04-02 02:27:05 <sheldor> okay
 468 2013-04-02 02:27:09 <gmaxwell> Right.
 469 2013-04-02 02:27:12 <sheldor> k
 470 2013-04-02 02:27:24 i2pRelay has joined
 471 2013-04-02 02:27:45 <gmaxwell> (I said private key because I think of what the miner holds and picks. He only needs to remember his private key, and could convert it to a public key on demand... but thats a tangent)
 472 2013-04-02 02:28:00 <sheldor> the candidates contain transaction logs right?
 473 2013-04-02 02:28:47 <sheldor> or basically transactions are the main contents of candidates/blocks right?
 474 2013-04-02 02:28:52 <sheldor> i see gmaxwell
 475 2013-04-02 02:29:35 <gmaxwell> sipa: fe_mul 37.32% gej_double 14.60% gej_add 11.02% fe_sqr 8.14% fe_normalize 3.95% gej_add_ge 3.53%  gmpn_hgcd2 3.23% gmpz_fdiv_q_2_exp 1.18% _exmult (self) 1.16%
 476 2013-04-02 02:29:44 <gmaxwell> sheldor: correct.
 477 2013-04-02 02:29:58 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 478 2013-04-02 02:30:00 Lexx_ has joined
 479 2013-04-02 02:30:09 <gmaxwell> sipa: so same ranking but somewhat different distribution.
 480 2013-04-02 02:30:18 <gmaxwell> or close to the same ranking at least.
 481 2013-04-02 02:30:37 <sheldor> gmaxwell: do most (or all) miners share the same set of transactions in their candidates? or does the tansaction subset itself render the candidates unique?
 482 2013-04-02 02:30:49 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 483 2013-04-02 02:32:10 <gmaxwell> sheldor: It's often the same, though not always.
 484 2013-04-02 02:32:22 <sheldor> interesting
 485 2013-04-02 02:32:29 <gmaxwell> Hm, why?
 486 2013-04-02 02:32:30 <jaakkos> using a non-standard tx in a block requires one to mine it themself, and perhaps, so does redeeming the output if it requires a non-standard input script. however, what if 1) the output script is non-standard, but 2) it accepts a standard-form input script, can the tx be redeemed without mining the redeeming tx yourself?
 487 2013-04-02 02:32:41 skeledrew has joined
 488 2013-04-02 02:32:53 <sheldor> gmaxwell: where exactly do miners get the updates to that set of transactions?
 489 2013-04-02 02:33:05 <sipa> jaakkos: inputs are non-standard if they spend a non-standard output
 490 2013-04-02 02:33:16 <jaakkos> ok, so the answer is no
 491 2013-04-02 02:33:19 <jaakkos> thanks
 492 2013-04-02 02:33:25 Lexx__ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 493 2013-04-02 02:33:27 <sipa> sheldor: the network; transactions are broadcast on it
 494 2013-04-02 02:33:35 <sheldor> okay thanks guys!
 495 2013-04-02 02:33:42 <gmaxwell> They learn transactions from the network and whenever they build new work they will usually traverse the queue of transactions they're maintaining and decide what they'll include.
 496 2013-04-02 02:33:42 <sipa> they validate them, and accept them into their memory pool
 497 2013-04-02 02:33:49 <sheldor> wont bother you any further with low level questions
 498 2013-04-02 02:33:59 <sheldor> btw what is the fe_mul stuff etc about?
 499 2013-04-02 02:34:30 <gmaxwell> sheldor: internal implementation parts of sipa's fast signature validation code.
 500 2013-04-02 02:34:38 <sheldor> ah
 501 2013-04-02 02:34:42 <gmaxwell> They're functions that do things like multiply very big numbers.
 502 2013-04-02 02:34:55 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 503 2013-04-02 02:34:58 <sipa> gmaxwell: can you guess what gej_add_ge does? :)
 504 2013-04-02 02:35:02 <sheldor> nice
 505 2013-04-02 02:35:26 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
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 508 2013-04-02 02:36:17 tyn has joined
 509 2013-04-02 02:36:22 <sipa> (that part of the code has no comments... yet)
 510 2013-04-02 02:36:38 <sheldor> a last question, does a miner only incorporate transaction updates into its candidates after it has completed a previous candidate successfully?
 511 2013-04-02 02:37:02 <sheldor> or does it update the transactions in the candidate whenver there is a new broadcast?
 512 2013-04-02 02:37:13 viperhr has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 513 2013-04-02 02:37:15 <sipa> sometimes the pool or whatever gives out the work informs the miner actively that there is no work
 514 2013-04-02 02:37:17 <gmaxwell> I assume it means group ecc add g something?  .. I must admit, the GMP names are a little more intutive than yours.
 515 2013-04-02 02:37:22 <sipa> for example when a new block is found
 516 2013-04-02 02:37:39 <sipa> gmaxwell: ge is group element, gej is group element in jacobian notation :)
 517 2013-04-02 02:38:13 <sheldor> sipa: and does it also inform the miner actively that there are new transactions even though there is still enough work left?
 518 2013-04-02 02:38:34 <gmaxwell> sheldor: maybe, it can. thats up to it.
 519 2013-04-02 02:38:36 paybitcoin1 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 520 2013-04-02 02:38:47 <sheldor> not protocol defined? hm interesting
 521 2013-04-02 02:39:26 paybitcoin1 has joined
 522 2013-04-02 02:39:28 <sheldor> is there a max limit on the outdatedness of transactions in candidates?
 523 2013-04-02 02:39:36 <gmaxwell> updating for every new transaction would create a bunch of bandwidth. Not updating ever would make you miss out on transaction fees.
 524 2013-04-02 02:39:38 <sipa> there are several protocols for communication between miners
 525 2013-04-02 02:40:08 <gmaxwell> sheldor: when a new block is found on the network you must update your transactions, because some of the ones you were including may now be already in the chain or conflicted.
 526 2013-04-02 02:40:18 paybitcoin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 527 2013-04-02 02:40:19 <gmaxwell> otherwise there is no limit.
 528 2013-04-02 02:40:39 <sheldor> oh i see, you get a small reward for every transation included in your block
 529 2013-04-02 02:40:42 <sheldor> the fee
 530 2013-04-02 02:41:02 <gmaxwell> sheldor: if the transaction has a fee, not all do. But sure.
 531 2013-04-02 02:41:10 <sheldor> is there a max or min limit on number of transactions in a candidate?
 532 2013-04-02 02:41:15 <sheldor> thanks gmaxwell
 533 2013-04-02 02:42:56 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 534 2013-04-02 02:43:29 i2pRelay has joined
 535 2013-04-02 02:44:10 <sheldor> btw, if all coins are mined, will transaction fees necessarily rise to at least cover the energy bills of future "miners"? this sounds problematic, either way money flux seems threatened, either by high fees or unprofitable block generation costs
 536 2013-04-02 02:44:46 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 537 2013-04-02 02:45:00 <gmaxwell> sheldor: the difficulty of creating a block is adaptive and not pinned to a particular amount.
 538 2013-04-02 02:45:35 <sheldor> oh you mean it can even decrease?
 539 2013-04-02 02:45:44 <sipa> it has decreased already
 540 2013-04-02 02:45:48 <sheldor> oh
 541 2013-04-02 02:45:52 <sheldor> makes sense
 542 2013-04-02 02:45:54 <sipa> see http://bitcoin.sipa.be/
 543 2013-04-02 02:45:59 <sheldor> thanks
 544 2013-04-02 02:46:03 <gmaxwell> "all coins mined" is not quite the right way of thinking about it— the subsidy (coins from nowhere) decrease geometrically— presumably they'll be irrelevantly small long before they are 0.
 545 2013-04-02 02:46:17 * sipa afk
 546 2013-04-02 02:46:38 <BlueMatt> well, we got a discussion on cnbc today
 547 2013-04-02 02:46:40 <gmaxwell> (they only ever become zero as an artifact of the limited precision... if the precision were infinite they'd come forever but there would still be no more than 21m)
 548 2013-04-02 02:46:50 <sheldor> i read the last coin will be mined on January 1st 2140 at 00:00 UTC
 549 2013-04-02 02:46:53 <BlueMatt> about as bad as bloomberg's on-air coverage, but...no press is bad press I suppose
 550 2013-04-02 02:47:34 <gmaxwell> sheldor: nowhere near that precise, it might be anywhere in a several year range— and that presuming the precision isn't increased (or if it is increased that things are adjusted to make it still go to zero at that point)
 551 2013-04-02 02:47:40 <sheldor> yeah im kidding
 552 2013-04-02 02:48:51 Tectonic has joined
 553 2013-04-02 02:49:08 <ProfMac> So.  Will "the last bitcoin" be a collector's item?
 554 2013-04-02 02:49:16 <sheldor> lol
 555 2013-04-02 02:49:22 <sheldor> the first one sure is
 556 2013-04-02 02:49:29 <gmaxwell> sheldor: first one can't be spent.
 557 2013-04-02 02:49:34 <sheldor> oh
 558 2013-04-02 02:50:04 <Cory> Why not?
 559 2013-04-02 02:50:38 <gmaxwell> Cory: because block 0 is specially created in the code out of thin air, and didn't go through the process that interts its transactions into the database.
 560 2013-04-02 02:50:42 <gmaxwell> Making it unspendable.
 561 2013-04-02 02:50:58 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 562 2013-04-02 02:51:13 <lianj> but if a planned hard fork is done, this will be fixed?
 563 2013-04-02 02:51:19 <BlueMatt> RFC: " Design Considerations for Faster-Than-Light (FTL) Communication"
 564 2013-04-02 02:51:21 <BlueMatt> now thats not bad
 565 2013-04-02 02:51:23 <gmaxwell> No, unlikely that we'd bother fixing it.
 566 2013-04-02 02:51:26 <Cory> Ah, cool. :)
 567 2013-04-02 02:51:30 <sheldor> damn the inventors and early adopters must all be (m|b)illionaires by now
 568 2013-04-02 02:51:31 i2pRelay has joined
 569 2013-04-02 02:51:42 <sheldor> how many of you guys are millionaires because of BTC?
 570 2013-04-02 02:52:08 <warren> This question isn't very relevant for -dev.
 571 2013-04-02 02:52:09 <lianj> selling at 0.25$ hardly makes you a millionair
 572 2013-04-02 02:52:09 <gmaxwell> It would be a risky hard forking change, and the fact that it is unspendable is a useful competence test for rapidly evaluating a new implementation. (a mostly harmless 'brown M&M')
 573 2013-04-02 02:52:36 viperhr has joined
 574 2013-04-02 02:52:40 <gmaxwell> sheldor: I doubt there are many in total— lots of places along the way where selling coin was a great idea.
 575 2013-04-02 02:52:53 <sheldor> i see
 576 2013-04-02 02:52:57 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: how many alternate implementations got that right the first time?
 577 2013-04-02 02:53:39 <gmaxwell> Have any?
 578 2013-04-02 02:54:03 <gmaxwell> But ones have gotten it right without being yelled at now, I believe.
 579 2013-04-02 02:54:09 <BlueMatt> I dunno, I just know I f'd it up in bitcoinj originally
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 583 2013-04-02 02:59:01 <jspilman> does the proposed Payment Protocol have a way to include the *redeemScript* if you are making a PaymentRequest to a P2SH?
 584 2013-04-02 02:59:05 fiesh has joined
 585 2013-04-02 02:59:31 <gmaxwell> jspilman: Why would you want that?
 586 2013-04-02 02:59:33 i2pRelay has joined
 587 2013-04-02 02:59:44 <gmaxwell> It's not generally any business of the payer what the redeemscript is.
 588 2013-04-02 03:00:25 <gmaxwell> (I don't actually know the answer to your question— having not paid attention to the spec lately, but I don't see a reason to provide it in the payment protocol)
 589 2013-04-02 03:00:52 <jspilman> it's not in the spec, I am writing up why I want it there.  I just didn't want to go too far out on a limb if somehow I missed it
 590 2013-04-02 03:01:00 <jspilman> thanks
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 593 2013-04-02 03:04:17 <gmaxwell> jspilman: if you want it for address privacy (I think you mentioned that earlier) it can't actually provide that. As the nonce would be disclosed when the transaction was redeemed.
 594 2013-04-02 03:04:31 bernard75 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 595 2013-04-02 03:04:33 <gmaxwell> Fortunately we have a system for address privacy which doesn't have that weakness.
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 609 2013-04-02 03:20:28 <jspilman> yeah, P2SH just keeps the signing pubkeys private UNTIL the outputs are spent
 610 2013-04-02 03:21:31 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: we do?
 611 2013-04-02 03:22:04 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yes, type-2 determinstic keys let you generate as many pubkeys for a person as you like and they're unlinkable by third parties.
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 615 2013-04-02 03:22:55 <gmaxwell> presumably we'll define a serialization for extended pubkeys in the future... and then in an invoice where you expect reoccuring payments you could give someone an extended key.
 616 2013-04-02 03:23:02 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ok...so no different (aside from backup/ease of use, etc, etc) from just lots of addresses
 617 2013-04-02 03:23:07 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 618 2013-04-02 03:23:28 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: the distinction being that I could give you a single short seralized blob and you could pay me infinite times with a distinct address.
 619 2013-04-02 03:23:34 Scaglietti has joined
 620 2013-04-02 03:23:34 <BlueMatt> yes
 621 2013-04-02 03:23:37 <BlueMatt> "ease of use" ;)
 622 2013-04-02 03:23:38 i2pRelay has joined
 623 2013-04-02 03:23:42 <gmaxwell> ha. Okay.
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 627 2013-04-02 03:24:28 <sydna> the speed of block propagation is fairly impressive. for some reason I expected, you know, 10 seconds of lead time for the block at least.
 628 2013-04-02 03:24:36 <sydna> as far as I can see, it's almost instant across the network
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 632 2013-04-02 03:25:04 <rhett> if I have an old wallet.dat in a .bitcoin directory, will the bitcoin client immediately tell me the balance?
 633 2013-04-02 03:25:07 <BlueMatt> Ive seen measurements that disagree, but it really doesnt matter
 634 2013-04-02 03:25:07 <rhett> it shows as zero
 635 2013-04-02 03:25:17 <gwillen> rhett: it needs to download the blockchain first
 636 2013-04-02 03:25:25 <gwillen> rhett: up to at least the point where the transactions were received
 637 2013-04-02 03:25:28 <gmaxwell> yes, the order of nodes is quite high. imagine.. you give a block to one peer... it feeds 8 more.. each of those feed 8...  The average propagation is fast, the worst case isn't super fast.
 638 2013-04-02 03:25:29 <gwillen> that are in your balance
 639 2013-04-02 03:25:51 * helo wishes he knew if his connection was fast enough to be helpful
 640 2013-04-02 03:25:54 <gmaxwell> E.g. back before 0.8 it was easy to time a block taking over a minute to get wide propagation in some cases.
 641 2013-04-02 03:26:05 <sydna> BlueMatt: I suspect it's down to what peers you are surveying. I've come across some brutally slow ones (running via tor maybe), but I discounted them as outliers
 642 2013-04-02 03:26:14 <rhett> I have like 4 wallet files.  what's the fastest way to check them all?
 643 2013-04-02 03:26:26 <sydna> gmaxwell: ah, that's awful
 644 2013-04-02 03:26:40 <BlueMatt> sydna: yes
 645 2013-04-02 03:26:45 <helo> rhett: import all of the private keys into the same one? :)
 646 2013-04-02 03:26:59 <rhett> there are 4  .bitcoin dirs in linux
 647 2013-04-02 03:27:03 <gmaxwell> fixes in 0.7.x and later 0.8 made things much faster though.
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 649 2013-04-02 03:27:40 Bjander has joined
 650 2013-04-02 03:28:26 <rhett> if I do cp -r /backup/.bitcoin ~/ and then run the client, it takes a long time to catch up with the blocks
 651 2013-04-02 03:29:54 <sydna> ouch, I take back my last statement. for #229230, all the nodes in the US / EC2 responded within 500ms of each other. the australian nodes took 5-10s, and one still hasn't got the block yet.
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 655 2013-04-02 03:31:33 <gmaxwell> sydna: it's hard to distinguish a node's own low performance from other factors, also— there are nodes who probably don't relay blocks.
 656 2013-04-02 03:31:41 i2pRelay has joined
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 658 2013-04-02 03:32:16 <sydna> you would be extremely unlucky to connect to nodes that don't relay blocks (like mine)
 659 2013-04-02 03:33:00 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 660 2013-04-02 03:33:14 Bjander has joined
 661 2013-04-02 03:33:15 <gmaxwell> sydna: I mean some of the other nodes you are connecting to might be like yours. (naughty you— sounds like you're using up about 1% of the listening network's capacity for your test?)  And so they'll never tell you about it. :P
 662 2013-04-02 03:36:09 <sydna> gmaxwell: good point, I hadn't considered other misbehaving nodes. I'm not intending to have too much of an impact - there's some 50+ clients connected to my gigabit nodes anyway.
 663 2013-04-02 03:37:15 <gmaxwell> sydna: ::nods:: Yea, just keep an eye on it. Your local connection isn't always the best gauge of overall network health because nodes won't connect twice in the same /16... so there is more pressure on nodes that are all alone in a /16.
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 668 2013-04-02 03:39:45 <sydna> gmaxwell: oddly enough, I'm the only listening node in the two ranges i have servers in, at least on the default port. when I read about that restriction, I nmapped the whole block looking for other ones.
 669 2013-04-02 03:39:53 pacpac has joined
 670 2013-04-02 03:41:53 <gmaxwell> sydna: good!
 671 2013-04-02 03:42:01 Guest92184 has joined
 672 2013-04-02 03:42:58 * BlueMatt bets he is one of only a few in his /16
 673 2013-04-02 03:43:19 <BlueMatt> except for all the silk road users (too many druggies in college...)
 674 2013-04-02 03:43:33 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: they don't need SR for their drugs.
 675 2013-04-02 03:43:37 <sydna> BlueMatt: fire up nmap and find out?
 676 2013-04-02 03:44:02 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: nope, that you dont
 677 2013-04-02 03:44:08 Guest92184 is now known as MobGod
 678 2013-04-02 03:44:11 <BlueMatt> sydna: meh...Im lazy
 679 2013-04-02 03:44:16 MobGod has quit (Changing host)
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 681 2013-04-02 03:44:24 * BlueMatt prefers to do all his work based on guesswork
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 683 2013-04-02 03:44:29 <BlueMatt> makes life more interesting
 684 2013-04-02 03:44:52 <_g> depends on which drugs
 685 2013-04-02 03:45:05 <_g> question regarding: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1bhky4/i_recovered_my_lost_bitcoins/c96qjn8
 686 2013-04-02 03:45:32 <gmaxwell> that post is incorrect.
 687 2013-04-02 03:45:35 <_g> 1) is that indeed true, and 2) once a wallet is encrypted, it its then fine to be backed up, right?
 688 2013-04-02 03:45:51 <gmaxwell> 2) yes
 689 2013-04-02 03:46:32 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: wait, I thought we did clear keypool on encrypt?
 690 2013-04-02 03:46:43 <_g> gmaxwell: that post is incorrect.. meaning unused pregenerated change addresses are retained during encryption?
 691 2013-04-02 03:47:10 <BlueMatt> they are retained, you still have them
 692 2013-04-02 03:47:13 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 693 2013-04-02 03:47:27 <BlueMatt> but I thought they werent used for the next output
 694 2013-04-02 03:47:32 <BlueMatt> I may be wrong
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 712 2013-04-02 03:58:27 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: 2) yes*
 713 2013-04-02 03:58:40 <jgarzik> *plenty of unencrypted data remains, that could potentially compromise privacy
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 734 2013-04-02 04:21:33 <EvilPete> I'm seeing a lot of this: http://pastebin.com/zkGyn0NA  lately - "ERROR: CTransaction::CheckTransaction() : vin empty"  Yesterday, one of my 0.8.1 clients banned my other 0.8.1 client for doing this.  My home machine did ResendTransactions(), and the public server threw errors like that.  After 10 resends my colo machine banned my home machine.
 735 2013-04-02 04:21:38 paybitcoin has joined
 736 2013-04-02 04:21:53 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: ^
 737 2013-04-02 04:22:15 <EvilPete> I ended up doing a salvagewallet and it stopped.
 738 2013-04-02 04:22:17 realazthat has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 739 2013-04-02 04:22:29 <jgarzik> EvilPete: release version or git ?
 740 2013-04-02 04:22:59 <EvilPete> jgarzik: built from git.  But the pastebin above is from an unrelated peer.
 741 2013-04-02 04:23:10 TradeFortress has joined
 742 2013-04-02 04:23:35 <EvilPete> both are 0.8.1 hash 38f8657
 743 2013-04-02 04:24:18 <jgarzik> hrm
 744 2013-04-02 04:25:40 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
 745 2013-04-02 04:26:49 realazthat has joined
 746 2013-04-02 04:27:11 <EvilPete> I figured it was a local build issue, until I saw it coming from an unrelated third party.
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 751 2013-04-02 04:30:56 <toffoo> 5 crashes & reindexes since updating to v0.8.1 on Mac … fux dat, I'm restoring v0.7.2 from backups now
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 754 2013-04-02 04:31:34 <toffoo> devs: I strongly suggest you remove the v0.8.* Mac binary and suggest Mac users stick with v0.7.2 until this issue is resolved
 755 2013-04-02 04:31:51 <noah_> Hi.  Question.  I'm working on an idea that would need the most recently completed blocks.  Where does a place like satoshidice.com get them?
 756 2013-04-02 04:31:52 <sydna> I am running 0.8.1 on OSX, I've had no issues
 757 2013-04-02 04:31:56 pacpac has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 758 2013-04-02 04:32:02 <EvilPete> toffoo: I'm not a dev, but the 0.8.1 release binary runs fine for me.
 759 2013-04-02 04:32:08 <sydna> the proxy settings are broken though
 760 2013-04-02 04:32:18 <sydna> and if you close the window you need to restart the client
 761 2013-04-02 04:32:19 <toffoo> sydna EvilPete  good to hear, I wish I was in the same boat
 762 2013-04-02 04:32:31 <toffoo> other users have confirmed these database corruption issues
 763 2013-04-02 04:32:41 <sydna> what OSX version?
 764 2013-04-02 04:33:07 <toffoo> 10.8.3
 765 2013-04-02 04:33:12 <toffoo> the issue: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2435
 766 2013-04-02 04:33:28 <jspilman> OK... this took all day to write!  https://gist.github.com/jspilman/5287991
 767 2013-04-02 04:33:38 <jspilman> Please feel free to tear it apart :-0
 768 2013-04-02 04:33:39 <sydna> strange. I wonder what is different between our setups
 769 2013-04-02 04:33:55 <toffoo> only thing unusual about my setup is full disk encryption
 770 2013-04-02 04:34:05 <jspilman> It's a proposal for some changes to Payment Protocol
 771 2013-04-02 04:34:10 <toffoo> but can't imagine why that would cause issue with bitcoin-qt and nothing else
 772 2013-04-02 04:34:30 <EvilPete> jgarzik: I'll write it up and gather some more data
 773 2013-04-02 04:35:18 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 774 2013-04-02 04:35:26 <jgarzik> EvilPete: please do
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 778 2013-04-02 04:40:26 <sydna> there's every chance that it is a balmy FileVault error
 779 2013-04-02 04:40:32 <sydna> I don't use it for that very reason
 780 2013-04-02 04:40:32 <noah_> Anybody have any suggestions?
 781 2013-04-02 04:41:14 <sydna> from bitcoind.
 782 2013-04-02 04:41:58 cartermc24 has quit (Quit: cartermc24)
 783 2013-04-02 04:42:50 B0g4r7 has joined
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 785 2013-04-02 04:43:46 <noah_> what/where is bitcoind?
 786 2013-04-02 04:43:53 i2pRelay has joined
 787 2013-04-02 04:44:09 <sydna> bitcoind is the reference bitcoin client. it's the headless (server) version of bticoin-qt
 788 2013-04-02 04:44:52 <noah_> Nice - I'll have to check out that code.  Thanks
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 792 2013-04-02 04:50:08 <sheldor> what is the developer theory regarding the recent price explosion?
 793 2013-04-02 04:50:13 <sheldor> whats the reason
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 795 2013-04-02 04:51:20 <gfawkes> there's more demand than supply?
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 797 2013-04-02 04:51:34 <jgarzik> They don't pay us enough to theorize.  More seriously...  #bitcoin material.
 798 2013-04-02 04:51:49 <sheldor> jgarzik: but they dont know :(
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 801 2013-04-02 04:52:06 <gfawkes> why does the price of apple stock go up?
 802 2013-04-02 04:52:15 <sydna> speculation.
 803 2013-04-02 04:52:15 <gfawkes> why does the price of zynga go down?
 804 2013-04-02 04:52:21 <sheldor> gfawkes: the increase in demand for apple products makes sense
 805 2013-04-02 04:52:48 <gfawkes> so the increase in demand for bitcoin doesn't make sense?
 806 2013-04-02 04:53:00 <sheldor> gfawkes: same for the reduction in demand for zynga
 807 2013-04-02 04:53:15 <sheldor> gfawkes: not to me, at all
 808 2013-04-02 04:53:21 <noah_> Question:  We can see how many transactions there are in a day, but do we have any estimate how many PEOPLE are actually trading bitcions?
 809 2013-04-02 04:53:55 <gfawkes> sheldor - then you might be missing something from your picture of bitcoin that others are seeing
 810 2013-04-02 04:54:01 <sheldor> gfawkes: we are talking about an explosion, the price probably jumped by another dollar by the time i finished this sentence
 811 2013-04-02 04:54:08 <sheldor> gfawkes: hence my question
 812 2013-04-02 04:54:35 <gfawkes> without knowing your perspective im not sure anyone can answer your question ;)
 813 2013-04-02 04:54:53 <sheldor> gfawkes: well lets start with how it makes sense to you
 814 2013-04-02 04:55:54 <gfawkes> sheldor - simple, only 21 million will ever exist for all humans to conduct monetary transactions with
 815 2013-04-02 04:55:55 <sheldor> noah_: there is nothing in bitcoin that identifies people
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 817 2013-04-02 04:56:34 <sheldor> gfawkes: sure but thats been the case since day 0 and we are at like 50% of the max money supply
 818 2013-04-02 04:56:39 <noah_> sheldon:  I know, but was wondering if we had any rough estimates.  It would mean very different things if BTC was just 100 people trading a lot back-and-forth, or 100,000 people actively trading
 819 2013-04-02 04:56:54 <sheldor> gfawkes: there is nothing in that that explains the recent explosion
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 822 2013-04-02 04:57:28 <gfawkes> sheldor - its the simple destruction of "whole" bitcoins due to economic activity
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 824 2013-04-02 04:57:42 <sheldor> noah_: well you could start with counting same public keys as same people
 825 2013-04-02 04:57:50 <gfawkes> sheldor - if you want to send $1M USD in bitcoins, you have to get those bitcoins from somewhere
 826 2013-04-02 04:57:57 <sheldor> noah_: but thats still a bad estimate, probably a decent upper bound
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 829 2013-04-02 04:58:31 <noah_> Sure - that's not a bad upper bound.  Is that available somewhere?
 830 2013-04-02 04:58:36 <gfawkes> sheldor - as economic activity increases in the network, the price has to go up, it has no choice
 831 2013-04-02 04:58:41 <sheldor> gfawkes: still it was a steady growth over months or years, then suddenly, lest month, BAAMM
 832 2013-04-02 04:59:00 <noah_> Just looking at the currency market of BTC, it would be an interesting indicator as to the growth rate of people trading in BTC.
 833 2013-04-02 04:59:03 <gfawkes> sheldor - we finally got enough deep pockets to start "moving the needle" is all
 834 2013-04-02 04:59:05 <sheldor> gfawkes: nothing externally in the economy changed similarly that im aware of
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 837 2013-04-02 04:59:31 <gfawkes> sheldor - some theorize it was cyprus
 838 2013-04-02 04:59:31 dbe is now known as Guest86640
 839 2013-04-02 04:59:43 <gfawkes> sheldor - the truth is noone really knows
 840 2013-04-02 04:59:45 <sheldor> gfawkes: you mean institutional investors and such? also cyprus, euro crisis, etc yeah makes sense
 841 2013-04-02 04:59:51 <sheldor> also the recent legislation
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 843 2013-04-02 05:00:05 <sheldor> but does that really account for the explosion.. not sure
 844 2013-04-02 05:00:06 <Luke-Jr> guys, #bitcoin
 845 2013-04-02 05:00:18 <sheldor> okay sorry
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 847 2013-04-02 05:00:23 <noah_> I'm waiting for the day we can walk into Ralph's or Starbucks to spend BTC.  Once that's announced in the news, the price will skyrocket.
 848 2013-04-02 05:00:44 <sheldor> noah_: apparently there are bitcoin ATMs in cyprus now
 849 2013-04-02 05:01:00 <noah_> OK - back to my original query.  If I just want the latest signed block, do I have to use the entire bitcoind, or can I just do some basic network operations with a Perl client or something simple?
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 852 2013-04-02 05:02:17 <jgarzik> sipa:
 853 2013-04-02 05:02:19 <jgarzik> field_5x52.c: In function 'secp256k1_fe_set_b32':
 854 2013-04-02 05:02:19 <jgarzik> field_5x52.c:99:5: error: 'for' loop initial declarations are only allowed in C99 mode
 855 2013-04-02 05:02:51 <jgarzik> sipa: bunch of those C++ artifacts.  That's the standard gcc "-O2 -Wall -g" invocation.  Switching gcc explicitly to C99 should fix.
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 859 2013-04-02 05:05:02 <jgarzik> field.h:28:13: warning: 'secp256k1_fe_start' declared 'static' but never defined [-Wunused-function]
 860 2013-04-02 05:05:03 <jgarzik> field.h:31:13: warning: 'secp256k1_fe_stop' declared 'static' but never defined [-Wunused-function]
 861 2013-04-02 05:05:04 <jgarzik> many
 862 2013-04-02 05:06:29 <noah_> Anybody?
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 865 2013-04-02 05:07:37 <SomeoneWeird> noah_, that depends if you can trust a 3rd party service or not
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 867 2013-04-02 05:08:04 <noah_> I can't trust a third party.  Want to go direct to source.  Probably multiple sources
 868 2013-04-02 05:08:33 <SomeoneWeird> then you need the entire blockchain
 869 2013-04-02 05:08:47 <SomeoneWeird> that's the entire point of it :)
 870 2013-04-02 05:08:56 <noah_> OK.  If I wanted to fetch it directly, where would I go?
 871 2013-04-02 05:09:14 <SomeoneWeird> directly from?
 872 2013-04-02 05:09:39 <noah_> That's what I need to learn.  How does one fetch the block chain from the "cloud"?
 873 2013-04-02 05:10:36 <noah_> I assume that the first step is to identify a list of peers, then to request the chain from those peers??
 874 2013-04-02 05:10:47 <SomeoneWeird> what language are youo using?
 875 2013-04-02 05:11:24 <noah_> Not sure yet.  Maybe just start with Perl or something basic
 876 2013-04-02 05:11:31 * Luke-Jr wonders why GCC doesn't default to C99 yet
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 881 2013-04-02 05:13:47 <SomeoneWeird> Luke-Jr, litecoin
 882 2013-04-02 05:13:50 <SomeoneWeird> it's a conspiracy
 883 2013-04-02 05:13:58 <SomeoneWeird> they're not changing ur gcc
 884 2013-04-02 05:14:00 <SomeoneWeird> ermergerd
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 909 2013-04-02 05:30:19 <gmaxwell> 20:24 < _g> gmaxwell: that post is incorrect.. meaning unused pregenerated change addresses are retained during encryption?
 910 2013-04-02 05:30:35 <gmaxwell> They're retained, but not used anymore. E.g. you keep them in case someone else sends funds to them.
 911 2013-04-02 05:30:47 <gmaxwell> You need to backup again after encrypting, and the software tells you this.
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 913 2013-04-02 05:31:32 <gmaxwell> And I think I misread the post initially.
 914 2013-04-02 05:31:53 <gmaxwell> Encrypting your wallet gives you a new keypool, and you do indeed need to backup again (but it tells you this!)
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 923 2013-04-02 05:39:52 <gmaxwell> 21:40 <@jgarzik> sipa: bunch of those C++ artifacts.  That's the standard gcc "-O2 -Wall -g" invocation.  Switching gcc explicitly to C99 should fix.
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 925 2013-04-02 05:40:47 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: ?
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 928 2013-04-02 05:41:17 <gmaxwell> this code should probably be made C89 friendly, e.g. build cleanly with -std=c89 -pedantic (+ long long) But I'll submit patches for that.
 929 2013-04-02 05:41:48 <gmaxwell> (there are varrious small embedded systems that don't have reasonable C99 compilers)
 930 2013-04-02 05:42:01 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: agreed
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 932 2013-04-02 05:43:30 * Diablo-D3 no longer supports c89
 933 2013-04-02 05:43:30 <Diablo-D3> you've had over ten years, fix your shit already
 934 2013-04-02 05:44:40 <gmaxwell> For an application, sure.. For a low level underlying library that might be useful on small microcontrollers, meh. C99 provides no enormous gains there in any case.
 935 2013-04-02 05:45:14 <Diablo-D3> well
 936 2013-04-02 05:45:15 <gmaxwell> (and the nicest C99 feature is one of the ones you can't use on desktops becuase they're not in MSVC because they're not in C++: var arrays)
 937 2013-04-02 05:45:16 <Diablo-D3> to be fair
 938 2013-04-02 05:45:20 <Diablo-D3> I AM writing such a library
 939 2013-04-02 05:45:27 <Diablo-D3> and I really just need gcc or clang to run on those platforms
 940 2013-04-02 05:45:35 <Diablo-D3> they support enough of c99 in older versions to make it work
 941 2013-04-02 05:45:41 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: ARG
 942 2013-04-02 05:45:42 <Diablo-D3> VAR ARRAYS
 943 2013-04-02 05:45:44 <Diablo-D3> NO
 944 2013-04-02 05:45:47 <Diablo-D3> BAD GMAXWELL
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 946 2013-04-02 05:46:33 <kadoban> is there some way i can make testnet-in-a-box run really fast? on any of my dev machines, it still takes kinda forever to mine a block (this is actually in litecoin, but i'll be doing the same in bitcoin soon if it helps)
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 949 2013-04-02 05:47:11 <gmaxwell> Don't blame me if you can't track your stack utilization without shackles... I suppose you propose forbidding recursion and function pointers, since both of those can make stack usage undecidable too?
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 951 2013-04-02 05:47:51 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: I try to avoid recursion when I can
 952 2013-04-02 05:48:01 <Diablo-D3> and function pointers CAN be typed
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1047 2013-04-02 07:36:18 * EvilPete postpones creating an issue about "ERROR: CTransaction::CheckTransaction() : vin empty; Misbehaving (90 -> 100) DISCONNECTING" between two friendly v0.8 peers.. not enough detail in logs to make a decent report.
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1049 2013-04-02 07:36:43 <gmaxwell> EvilPete: are these recent git or?
1050 2013-04-02 07:37:17 <EvilPete> gmaxwell: between two servers under my control.  A public v0.8.1 build from the git source of that tag, and a home v0.8.0 also from the git tag
1051 2013-04-02 07:37:48 <EvilPete> gmaxwell: my v0.8.1 was banning my v0.8.0 each time it tried to ResendWalletTransactions()
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1054 2013-04-02 07:38:46 <EvilPete> then I saw other peers triggering it.  eg: http://pastebin.com/zkGyn0NA - not machine
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1056 2013-04-02 07:38:58 <EvilPete> not my machine
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1060 2013-04-02 07:39:34 <gmaxwell> EvilPete: but is it the git one that is seeing this?
1061 2013-04-02 07:39:50 <gmaxwell> this might be a result of some of the recent buffer management stuff just merged a couple days ago
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1063 2013-04-02 07:39:56 <EvilPete> gmaxwell: yes, both are built from github checkouts of the tag.
1064 2013-04-02 07:40:06 <gmaxwell> oh, of the tag.
1065 2013-04-02 07:40:21 <EvilPete> not from master
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1067 2013-04-02 07:41:05 <EvilPete> I wrote up a report and decided not to file it, because it's a useless report.. I can't give clues how to repeat and I'm wondering if I can trust one of the servers in question
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1069 2013-04-02 07:42:31 <EvilPete> The v0.8.1 was started from block 1 and did some very bizzare things after it filled.. It was banning peers from all around the world for trying to send it old blocks.  A reindex "fixed" it.. but left me with that "wtf?" feeling.
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1079 2013-04-02 07:52:51 <gmaxwell> EvilPete: that doesn't make a lot of sense.
1080 2013-04-02 07:52:58 <gmaxwell> do you have a debug log from that?
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1100 2013-04-02 08:07:52 <abadr> I'm getting "No information available about transaction" from getrawtransaction, even though I have txindex=1 in my bitcoin.conf. Does that mean I need to reindex again? I thought I already did that.
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1105 2013-04-02 08:09:39 <gmaxwell> abadr: it means you need to stop querying the first transaction in block 0.
1106 2013-04-02 08:09:45 <gmaxwell> :P
1107 2013-04-02 08:10:01 <gmaxwell> Leave satoshi some privacy!
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1109 2013-04-02 08:11:17 <abadr> actually it's dumber than that. i hadn't realized it was still catching up on blocks. :|
1110 2013-04-02 08:11:26 <gmaxwell> ah!
1111 2013-04-02 08:11:49 <gmaxwell> the txn in block 0 won't return a result just in case you do try that, seems to confuse a few people
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1114 2013-04-02 08:12:19 <abadr> why is that?
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1149 2013-04-02 08:39:47 <EvilPete> gmaxwell: I will rebuild the server. I half wonder if something's not been compiled thread-safe that should have been.  There's too much weird stuff going on with it.
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1215 2013-04-02 09:46:34 <abadr> Why is my compiled bitcoind binary so much bigger (46MB) than the download (6MB)?
1216 2013-04-02 09:46:55 <abadr> ubuntu 64 bit
1217 2013-04-02 09:47:02 realazthat has joined
1218 2013-04-02 09:47:03 <lupine> you didn't compile it statically did you?
1219 2013-04-02 09:47:27 <abadr> lupine: whatever's default
1220 2013-04-02 09:47:28 <tcatm> abadr: Did you strip it?
1221 2013-04-02 09:47:45 <K1773R> abadr, $ strip bitcoind
1222 2013-04-02 09:48:10 <abadr> thanks
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1229 2013-04-02 09:49:41 <djoot> in allocators.h there is a line LockedPageManager::instance.LockRange(.. what does it do and what consequences does omitting to Lock / Unlock have?
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1233 2013-04-02 09:54:07 <jdnavarro> http://blockexplorer.com is down, anyone knows anything about it?
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1236 2013-04-02 09:54:42 <jdnavarro> yesterday was also down
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1239 2013-04-02 09:56:45 * jdnavarro wishes blockchain.info included the testnet
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1264 2013-04-02 10:20:44 <Yulth> Hi everyone? Could anyone give me please some links with documentation about how to use bitcoind server under linux? I mean: how to start and stop the server, and how to send commands to it.
1265 2013-04-02 10:20:55 darsie has joined
1266 2013-04-02 10:20:58 <darsie> hi
1267 2013-04-02 10:21:03 i2pRelay has joined
1268 2013-04-02 10:21:39 <darsie> Bitcoin rose from 5 to 100.
1269 2013-04-02 10:21:50 <kermit_> 105
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1271 2013-04-02 10:22:38 <darsie> How about lowering the minimum fee in bitcoin-qt? Like to 1/10th or 1/20th.
1272 2013-04-02 10:23:37 <darsie> I'm paying 30% fee when subscribing to http://btccharts.com for one day.
1273 2013-04-02 10:24:39 <darsie> Was the fee lowered before, from 0.01 to 0.0005?
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1275 2013-04-02 10:26:29 <warren> hmm, commercial charting service
1276 2013-04-02 10:26:49 <darsie> yes
1277 2013-04-02 10:28:13 <darsie> It's 0.00157 btc/day at current rate.
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1280 2013-04-02 10:29:29 <warren> hopefully not all their users buy only one day
1281 2013-04-02 10:29:35 <darsie> When will the fee be lowered? When it's 0.1 USD? 0.5 USD? 5 USD?
1282 2013-04-02 10:29:58 <darsie> I keep buying one day after the other.
1283 2013-04-02 10:31:11 <darsie> I should suggest the operator to offer ltc payments, which are more suitable for micropayments.
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1303 2013-04-02 10:47:41 <sipa> jgarzik: are you building the .c files separately? i haven't benchmarked the difference, but you should only compile secp256k.c bench.c or tests.c - they include the rest of the .c files
1304 2013-04-02 10:47:59 <sipa> jgarzik: removing c99 loops should be easy
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1309 2013-04-02 10:51:34 <XertroV> Is there a resource around to emulate tx scripts?
1310 2013-04-02 10:51:50 <sipa> jgarzik: i could move that internal-only code to .h files, if that's more common than including .c files
1311 2013-04-02 10:51:56 <XertroV> Allow me to step through it and see the interim data live.
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1356 2013-04-02 11:26:30 <wallet42> hi have a question about probalility. if the last block was found 20 minutes ago that a block will be found whitin the next minute than if the last block has been found 10 minutes ago?
1357 2013-04-02 11:27:09 <jaakkos> wallet42: with default hash rate, the expected time is always the same
1358 2013-04-02 11:27:30 <jaakkos> wallet42: even if an hour has expired since the last block, the expected time would still be 10 minutes.
1359 2013-04-02 11:27:51 <wallet42> ok so at any point in time, P(whitin next 60 sec) = 1/10
1360 2013-04-02 11:29:05 <sipa> no
1361 2013-04-02 11:29:07 <wallet42> or like "discoutet to 10th" (logarithmic)
1362 2013-04-02 11:29:08 <jaakkos> you need to compute that from cumulative distribution function of the Poisson distribution
1363 2013-04-02 11:29:15 <wallet42> kk
1364 2013-04-02 11:29:26 <sipa> ;; calc 1-exp(-1/6)
1365 2013-04-02 11:29:27 <gribble> 0.153518275109
1366 2013-04-02 11:29:33 <sipa> 15.35%
1367 2013-04-02 11:29:40 <sipa> oh
1368 2013-04-02 11:29:57 <sipa> ;;calc 1-exp(-60/600)
1369 2013-04-02 11:29:58 <gribble> 0.095162581964
1370 2013-04-02 11:30:01 <wallet42> ;; calc 1-exp(-1/10)
1371 2013-04-02 11:30:01 <gribble> 0.095162581964
1372 2013-04-02 11:30:04 <wallet42> yeah
1373 2013-04-02 11:30:05 <wallet42> ty
1374 2013-04-02 11:30:08 <wallet42> :)
1375 2013-04-02 11:32:21 <jaakkos> s/poisson/exponential/
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1417 2013-04-02 12:08:13 <wallet42> hey i heard you love twitter bootstrap
1418 2013-04-02 12:08:21 <wallet42> but now every site looks the same
1419 2013-04-02 12:08:38 <wallet42> i found a new theme, you should use it for your next project: http://divshot.github.com/geo-bootstrap/
1420 2013-04-02 12:08:52 <Scrat> amazing
1421 2013-04-02 12:09:29 <t7> cool
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1426 2013-04-02 12:10:43 <t7> guestbook fuck yeeeee
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1429 2013-04-02 12:11:50 <sivu> wallet42, theres always http://bootswatch.com/
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1501 2013-04-02 13:04:10 <bwen> is there a way to have Armory connect to the testnet bitcoin-qt instead of the mainnet?
1502 2013-04-02 13:05:30 Supa has joined
1503 2013-04-02 13:05:39 <Supa> whatcha developing?
1504 2013-04-02 13:06:28 <bwen> Nothing really... my friend wants to get in and I though it would be fun to have him practice on the testnet
1505 2013-04-02 13:06:42 <bwen> how to handle his wallets, offline. Sign transaction etc...
1506 2013-04-02 13:06:55 <Supa> cool
1507 2013-04-02 13:07:17 <bwen> since he is not too technical and all
1508 2013-04-02 13:08:00 <Supa> I honestly just randomly joined the channel
1509 2013-04-02 13:08:07 <Supa> and said whatcha developing? xD
1510 2013-04-02 13:08:21 <bwen> oh :p
1511 2013-04-02 13:08:30 <Supa> > Successfully joined #bitcoin-dev on Tuesday at 8:43am
1512 2013-04-02 13:08:31 <Supa> [8:43am] * Topic is 'http://bitcoin.org/ https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/ | Latest version: 0.8.1 | #bitcoin-dev: Development of the Bitcoin Protocol/clients | Other support/discussion: #bitcoin | Dont ask to ask, just ask | Tell us what you're trying to do, not how you think you need to do it.'
1513 2013-04-02 13:08:31 <Supa> [8:43am] * Set by sipa!~pw@unaffiliated/sipa1024 on Wed Mar 27 14:38:19
1514 2013-04-02 13:08:31 <Supa> > Channel Modes: +Ccnt
1515 2013-04-02 13:08:31 <Supa> > Created on Thursday, December 17th, 2009 at 8:52pm
1516 2013-04-02 13:08:31 <Supa> [8:43am] <Supa> whatcha developing?
1517 2013-04-02 13:08:31 <Supa> —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— Cannot join channel: #bitcoin-police (You are banned)
1518 2013-04-02 13:08:32 <Supa> [8:44am] <bwen> Nothing really... my friend wants to get in and I though it would be fun to have him practice on the testnet
1519 2013-04-02 13:08:32 <Supa> [8:44am] <bwen> how to handle his wallets, offline. Sign transaction etc...
1520 2013-04-02 13:08:33 <Supa> [8:45am] <Supa> cool
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1522 2013-04-02 13:08:46 <Supa> xD
1523 2013-04-02 13:08:59 <bwen> spam Ô.o
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1548 2013-04-02 13:33:42 <jgarzik> sipa: that might be part of the problem, yes
1549 2013-04-02 13:33:49 i2pRelay has joined
1550 2013-04-02 13:34:52 <Supa> hey garzik
1551 2013-04-02 13:34:54 <Supa> gimme bitcoins
1552 2013-04-02 13:34:58 <Supa> k thx bai :D
1553 2013-04-02 13:35:14 <Supa> 13DRAm57deBUgUfPAoZfp3cqHsqWkVhWRg
1554 2013-04-02 13:35:15 whiterabbit has joined
1555 2013-04-02 13:35:35 <jgarzik> ;;kban Supa
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1563 2013-04-02 13:43:47 <graingert> Supa: uh
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1570 2013-04-02 13:51:14 <graingert> lol
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1585 2013-04-02 14:02:48 <finway> So, how do devs thiks about mtgox supporting litecoin ?
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1594 2013-04-02 14:11:57 <bwen> is there a way to have Armory connect to the testnet bitcoin-qt instead?
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1609 2013-04-02 14:23:22 <helo> finway: they think litecoin has made mistakes that will probably cause big problems down the road
1610 2013-04-02 14:23:41 <skinnkavaj> #bitcoin-swe
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1613 2013-04-02 14:27:38 <finway> helo,what problem? would you mind be more specific ?
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1615 2013-04-02 14:28:53 <helo> finway: scrypt (causing massive susceptibility to botnets), short inter-block delay (causing more frequent and deeper forks)
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1617 2013-04-02 14:29:35 <finway> helo, thank you.
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1619 2013-04-02 14:30:39 <pjorrit_> wait mtgox supports ltc or was that a hypothetical?
1620 2013-04-02 14:31:02 <Ry4an> pjorrit_: it was the april fools that wasn't.
1621 2013-04-02 14:31:09 <pjorrit_> oh right lol
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1623 2013-04-02 14:31:33 <Ry4an> really though, they make their money taking a percentage of transactions.  If there was a critical market in trading magic cards they'd do it.
1624 2013-04-02 14:31:38 <pjorrit_> my impenetrable april fools shield always suddenly fails teh moment we reach 4-2
1625 2013-04-02 14:31:53 <BlueMatt> Ry4an: you do realize thats what the name is...
1626 2013-04-02 14:31:57 <Ry4an> pjorrit_: no, they actually do litecoin.  it wasn't a joke just ill times.
1627 2013-04-02 14:32:00 <Ry4an> BlueMatt: I do :)
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1661 2013-04-02 15:07:11 <Eliel> helo: except, it doesn't look like litecoin is going to really end up that much more susceptible to botnets than bitcoin is.
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1667 2013-04-02 15:09:33 <helo> Eliel: as far as i know custom hardware is the only way. isn't the choice of scrypt intended to keep mining viable on commodity hardware?
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1669 2013-04-02 15:10:01 Xeno-Genesis has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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1673 2013-04-02 15:10:12 <Eliel> helo: it is, but it doesn't look like it's succeeding too well.
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1676 2013-04-02 15:11:34 <Eliel> the gap between a CPU and a GPU is a bit smaller but still pretty wide.
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1678 2013-04-02 15:12:48 <denisx> Committing 36751 changed transactions to coin database...
1679 2013-04-02 15:12:52 <denisx> is that normal?
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1681 2013-04-02 15:13:07 ocminer_ is now known as ocminer
1682 2013-04-02 15:13:12 <denisx> got that after block 0000000000000009d5158bdf82d8cb3deb3481d3446b1f6d0106ebcdda8a28bd
1683 2013-04-02 15:13:42 kicek has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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1685 2013-04-02 15:14:10 <helo> i have "Committing 2293 changed transactions to coin database." for that block
1686 2013-04-02 15:15:20 MobGod has joined
1687 2013-04-02 15:15:21 <denisx> strange
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1692 2013-04-02 15:16:46 <finway> Committing 36751 changed transactions to coin database...    How to watch this ?
1693 2013-04-02 15:16:51 ocminer_ has joined
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1700 2013-04-02 15:20:19 <helo> it's not something you really have to worry about
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1721 2013-04-02 15:34:25 <lolant> How can I search for a bitcoin wallet in a harddrive without a filesystem?
1722 2013-04-02 15:34:51 <poop_> make a disk image
1723 2013-04-02 15:35:05 <poop_> with dd
1724 2013-04-02 15:35:17 <lolant> I am doing that now
1725 2013-04-02 15:35:24 <lolant> But the filesystem is still b0rked
1726 2013-04-02 15:35:24 <poop_> then you can attempt to carve the image
1727 2013-04-02 15:35:48 <poop_> http://www.forensicswiki.org/wiki/Tools:Data_Recovery#Carving
1728 2013-04-02 15:35:48 <lolant> how?
1729 2013-04-02 15:35:54 quaz0r has joined
1730 2013-04-02 15:36:21 <lolant> has anyone made a formost signature for wallets?
1731 2013-04-02 15:36:30 <poop_> you mean the magic bytes?
1732 2013-04-02 15:36:44 <lolant> headers and footers
1733 2013-04-02 15:36:52 DobZombie has joined
1734 2013-04-02 15:36:57 ocminer_ has joined
1735 2013-04-02 15:37:02 <poop_> the wallet is a well known format (berkely db? I forget)
1736 2013-04-02 15:37:05 ocminer has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1737 2013-04-02 15:37:06 ocminer_ is now known as ocminer
1738 2013-04-02 15:37:06 <poop_> you should be able to look it up
1739 2013-04-02 15:38:21 <HM> why not just recover the filesystem
1740 2013-04-02 15:38:34 Sealy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1741 2013-04-02 15:38:38 <poop_> there's a solution
1742 2013-04-02 15:38:46 <lolant> rescued:    96734 MB,  errsize:  48030 MB,  current rate:        0 B/s
1743 2013-04-02 15:38:56 <lolant> I think the filesystem stuff is inside those 48gb
1744 2013-04-02 15:40:15 duckybsd has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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1756 2013-04-02 15:47:42 <helo> lolant: have you seen https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=25091.0 ?
1757 2013-04-02 15:47:58 <helo> lolant: was your wallet encrypted?
1758 2013-04-02 15:48:32 sydna has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1759 2013-04-02 15:48:40 Silox has left (!~Silox@zeusgw.ugent.be|)
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1765 2013-04-02 15:50:22 i2pRelay has joined
1766 2013-04-02 15:51:03 BTCOxygen is now known as 1!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/btcoxygen|BTCOxygen
1767 2013-04-02 15:52:00 Adelex has quit ()
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1769 2013-04-02 15:54:16 <lolant> helo: dont think so
1770 2013-04-02 15:54:22 <lolant> was back in 2010
1771 2013-04-02 15:54:38 <lolant> havin my 160 coins would be swell
1772 2013-04-02 15:54:46 <helo> if it wasn't encrypted, the tool on that bitcointalk thread has a good chance of helping
1773 2013-04-02 15:54:56 <lolant> does it work on images?
1774 2013-04-02 15:54:59 <helo> yes
1775 2013-04-02 15:55:02 coinners_ has joined
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1777 2013-04-02 15:55:31 wallet421 has joined
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1779 2013-04-02 15:55:56 Optimus-Prime has joined
1780 2013-04-02 15:56:02 <helo> be sure to read that top post carefully
1781 2013-04-02 15:56:13 HM has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1782 2013-04-02 15:56:28 stretchwarren has joined
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1785 2013-04-02 15:56:49 nsillik has quit (Client Quit)
1786 2013-04-02 15:57:04 <lolant> helo: I am running it on the image now
1787 2013-04-02 15:57:17 Darin_ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1788 2013-04-02 15:57:27 o8gf5 has joined
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1790 2013-04-02 15:58:24 i2pRelay has joined
1791 2013-04-02 15:59:39 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1792 2013-04-02 16:00:31 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1793 2013-04-02 16:00:50 OPrime has quit (Quit: OPrime)
1794 2013-04-02 16:01:38 <helo> don't forget to breathe
1795 2013-04-02 16:02:15 GordonG3kko has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1796 2013-04-02 16:02:41 WKNiGHT- has joined
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1799 2013-04-02 16:03:09 HM has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1800 2013-04-02 16:03:13 <lolant> helo: probably a good idea
1801 2013-04-02 16:03:22 <DarkGhost`> is litecoin takin gover?
1802 2013-04-02 16:03:47 HM has joined
1803 2013-04-02 16:05:14 impulse has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1804 2013-04-02 16:05:15 <rebroad> DarkGhost`, why do you ask that?
1805 2013-04-02 16:05:40 <DarkGhost`> I've just been hearing alot of talk that litecoin is better than bitcoin, easier to mine, less gpu/cpu use
1806 2013-04-02 16:05:41 <DarkGhost`> and etc
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1813 2013-04-02 16:06:45 <Luke-Jr> DarkGhost`: http://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/pumpanddump.asp
1814 2013-04-02 16:07:27 eralardz has joined
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1818 2013-04-02 16:08:21 <helo> Luke-Jr: can't the same be said about bitcoin?
1819 2013-04-02 16:08:26 <Luke-Jr> helo: no
1820 2013-04-02 16:08:55 <Luke-Jr> helo: what false, misleading, or greatly exaggerated statements do we make to inflate price?
1821 2013-04-02 16:09:09 <lupine> Luke-Jr, it's more opportunistic than manufactured, for bitcoin
1822 2013-04-02 16:09:24 <lupine> there's enough people talking about it independently, after all
1823 2013-04-02 16:09:40 <helo> Luke-Jr: we don't, but the media can't help but hype
1824 2013-04-02 16:09:55 <Luke-Jr> lupine: bitcoin experts will generally correct erroneous statements
1825 2013-04-02 16:10:08 <lupine> no doubt
1826 2013-04-02 16:10:36 <aceat64> I don't think LTC is necessarily pump and dump, it's just not innovative compared to bitcoin
1827 2013-04-02 16:10:46 <aceat64> there's no compelling use case
1828 2013-04-02 16:10:48 <wumpus> aceat64: exactly
1829 2013-04-02 16:10:50 <aceat64> it's not "asic-proof"
1830 2013-04-02 16:10:59 <aceat64> it's no longer "gpu proof"
1831 2013-04-02 16:11:02 <k9quaint> litecoin is really just a clone of bitcoin with a different hash algorithm and diff adjustment params
1832 2013-04-02 16:11:09 <aceat64> fast block times isn't necessarily better
1833 2013-04-02 16:11:12 <lupine> eh, scrypt is a better choice than sha256, but that's not a massive difference
1834 2013-04-02 16:11:23 <k9quaint> lupine: define better
1835 2013-04-02 16:11:28 <darkskiez> and if bitcoin needs to change those things, come the future, an update to the client, if widely deployed, makes it fact.
1836 2013-04-02 16:11:38 <aceat64> darkskiez: bingo
1837 2013-04-02 16:11:46 <lupine> k9quaint, difficulty can be part of the scheme rather than being tacked onto the end
1838 2013-04-02 16:11:46 <helo> how many times can the initial uptake explosion happen before people don't feel the pull?
1839 2013-04-02 16:11:47 <aceat64> litecoin is an interesting experiment
1840 2013-04-02 16:11:48 <darkskiez> like the 21mil limit can be removed at any point or anything
1841 2013-04-02 16:11:51 <lupine> I don't think litecoin do it right, mind
1842 2013-04-02 16:11:54 <aceat64> but I treat it the same as the testnet
1843 2013-04-02 16:12:04 Silverion has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1844 2013-04-02 16:12:06 <lupine> but having an extra difficulty knob is nice
1845 2013-04-02 16:12:37 <lupine> still, competition is good
1846 2013-04-02 16:12:47 BlackPrapor has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1847 2013-04-02 16:12:50 <darkskiez> I suspect that anti-bitcoin forces will try the divide and conquer approach too though
1848 2013-04-02 16:13:04 <lupine> and with time, they might even become competitors, rather than mostly-apers
1849 2013-04-02 16:13:17 toffoo has joined
1850 2013-04-02 16:13:18 <aceat64> lupine: I agree, but the rhetoric of "litecoin is better!" is wrong
1851 2013-04-02 16:13:28 dvide has joined
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1853 2013-04-02 16:13:57 <aceat64> it's a slightly different take on the exact same protocol
1854 2013-04-02 16:14:07 <wumpus> there's nothing (that I can see) specifically wrong with LTC, but they're using the same code and same kind of network with *slightly* different rules, it's just another bitcoin
1855 2013-04-02 16:14:27 i2pRelay has joined
1856 2013-04-02 16:14:38 <MWNinja> a handful of smart developers could make litecoin better, but that type of activity isn't occurring, and as such there is no basis for the current LTC price
1857 2013-04-02 16:14:52 james713 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1858 2013-04-02 16:14:53 <lupine> it's a good hedge for if a massive hole in sha256 is found, mind
1859 2013-04-02 16:15:00 <wumpus> competition would be nice, but in the form of a genuinly different cryptocurrency (ie, ripple, opentransactions) not another blockchain rehash
1860 2013-04-02 16:15:03 <wumpus> but that's just IMO
1861 2013-04-02 16:15:15 <lupine> everyone can immediately sell bitcoins for litecoins and everything can continue as before
1862 2013-04-02 16:15:30 <aceat64> something like PPCoin is pretty neat, not sure of the utility, but at least they have the right idea of trying a new system
1863 2013-04-02 16:15:32 <lupine> that might actually be its ultimate useful function
1864 2013-04-02 16:15:45 <wumpus> of all the holes that could be found in bitcoin, I think a double sha256 exploit is least likely
1865 2013-04-02 16:15:53 <lupine> it's a very long hedge
1866 2013-04-02 16:16:02 <darkskiez> if there are rumours of a sha256 breach, bitcoin can add a secondary hashing algo, and we can just transfer all the old keys to the new ones.
1867 2013-04-02 16:16:19 <lupine> you don't want to be playing that game in a hurry with a new algorithm
1868 2013-04-02 16:16:22 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1869 2013-04-02 16:16:59 <darkskiez> no, but its always an option
1870 2013-04-02 16:17:12 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1871 2013-04-02 16:17:13 <gonffen> lupine: you can't sell something that no one will buy. It would still be pretty crushing I'd think.
1872 2013-04-02 16:17:51 <darkskiez> i really dont see large scale bitcoin abandonment over any single issue,   any issue can be resolved in protocol.
1873 2013-04-02 16:18:14 keystroke has joined
1874 2013-04-02 16:18:18 <etotheipi__> that's actually why I thought it would cool to have a new chain that can use "destroyed" coins from the main blockchain as sources for the new blockchain
1875 2013-04-02 16:18:51 <darkskiez> destroyed coins ?
1876 2013-04-02 16:19:11 <darkskiez> they are transferred to a new block, not destroyed
1877 2013-04-02 16:19:13 <etotheipi__> send coins to a script on the main blockchain that is unredeemable
1878 2013-04-02 16:19:30 <etotheipi__> they are effectively lost on the main blockchain, because they are unspendable
1879 2013-04-02 16:19:33 <helo> why has litecoin seen success while so many other altcoins have not?
1880 2013-04-02 16:19:34 <lupine> well, you've got an element of trust right there. how do you verify irredemibility?
1881 2013-04-02 16:19:44 <etotheipi__> there would be a specific template
1882 2013-04-02 16:19:51 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1883 2013-04-02 16:19:59 <lupine> I guess you'd have to specify a particular address as being invalid in the protocol
1884 2013-04-02 16:20:04 <etotheipi__> OP_FALSE OP_VERIFY
1885 2013-04-02 16:20:09 <redeeman> but what if someone lies about that address?
1886 2013-04-02 16:20:23 <etotheipi__> that script would fail immediately
1887 2013-04-02 16:20:27 <etotheipi__> there's no way to redeem it
1888 2013-04-02 16:20:36 <etotheipi__> anything that comes after it is pointless
1889 2013-04-02 16:20:38 t7 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1890 2013-04-02 16:20:48 <helo> so you destroy bitcoin to create altcoin?
1891 2013-04-02 16:20:50 <etotheipi__> you put your address of your new-blockchain-address after it
1892 2013-04-02 16:20:59 <lupine> ah, a script, not an address
1893 2013-04-02 16:21:04 Garr255 has joined
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1895 2013-04-02 16:21:05 Garr255 has joined
1896 2013-04-02 16:21:13 <etotheipi__> and the altchain can use coins sent to this script on the main blockchain, as sources for transactions in the new blockchain
1897 2013-04-02 16:21:21 <lupine> interesting idea
1898 2013-04-02 16:21:22 <aceat64> woo, in the last two weeks I've made _almost_ 0.09 BTC
1899 2013-04-02 16:21:37 <etotheipi__> so you have 1-to-1 transfer between chains... one directional
1900 2013-04-02 16:21:45 <aceat64> as long as it stays cool I can keep running my GPU as a heater, instead of my electric heater :)
1901 2013-04-02 16:21:51 Cache_Money1 has joined
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1903 2013-04-02 16:22:14 <etotheipi__> the only problem is that the new blockchain must keep watching the old blockchain for some time
1904 2013-04-02 16:22:20 <etotheipi__> ...a long time
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1914 2013-04-02 16:29:36 <abadr> Given a transaction id + output, how do I get the tx where that output was redeemed, if any?
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1916 2013-04-02 16:29:59 graingert has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
1917 2013-04-02 16:30:26 <sipa> abadr: scan through the blockchain, or maintain an index
1918 2013-04-02 16:30:30 i2pRelay has joined
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1921 2013-04-02 16:30:33 graingert has joined
1922 2013-04-02 16:30:46 <abadr> :{
1923 2013-04-02 16:31:07 <lolant> running that script on several images makes things slow
1924 2013-04-02 16:31:15 da2ce7_d has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1925 2013-04-02 16:31:40 * Graet wonders how many people in here support Luke-Jr threatening to attack litecoin to "save bitcoin" interesting conversation in the (non publically logged chanerl)
1926 2013-04-02 16:31:50 <Graet> #litecoin-dev
1927 2013-04-02 16:32:04 <Graet> i really hope bitcoin doesnt stopp to alt chain wars
1928 2013-04-02 16:32:11 <Graet> stoop*
1929 2013-04-02 16:32:19 <lolant> How do you attack litecoin?
1930 2013-04-02 16:32:28 rebroad has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1931 2013-04-02 16:32:46 <Graet> he;s threatening to 51% with fpgas
1932 2013-04-02 16:33:09 <lolant> why?
1933 2013-04-02 16:33:16 <lolant> And can't they just get more power themselves?
1934 2013-04-02 16:33:31 <Arnavion> because they're not as popular as bitcoin
1935 2013-04-02 16:33:47 <Graet> yes they can, ask Luke-Jr about his hate for alt coins, i can't explain it
1936 2013-04-02 16:33:48 rebroad has joined
1937 2013-04-02 16:34:12 <lolant> Maybe because he has a vested intrest in bitcoins?
1938 2013-04-02 16:34:15 rebroad is now known as Guest28591
1939 2013-04-02 16:36:20 <gonffen> helo: my theory is litecoin is riding the success of bitcoin at the moment
1940 2013-04-02 16:37:59 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1941 2013-04-02 16:38:13 <lupine> lol
1942 2013-04-02 16:38:18 <Graet> actully it is getting a lot of interest from disenfanchised gpu miners being pushed out by ASIC devices, mtgox announcing they would suppot LTC trading has Luke-Jr quaking in his shoes over bitcoins future,but I dont think attacking another chain is a good look for a bitcoin dev - just my 2satoshi's
1943 2013-04-02 16:38:31 i2pRelay has joined
1944 2013-04-02 16:38:33 <helo> gonffen: the question is how many alt currencies can do so
1945 2013-04-02 16:39:05 rdymac has joined
1946 2013-04-02 16:39:11 Cache_Money1 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1947 2013-04-02 16:39:14 <lupine> I'm not sure I agree with the characterisation there
1948 2013-04-02 16:39:17 <helo> if ltc hadn't change the block delay to 2.5, i think it would be fine
1949 2013-04-02 16:39:56 <lupine> Graet, I don't see the threat you're alluding to. maybe I'm just dense
1950 2013-04-02 16:40:32 normanrichards has joined
1951 2013-04-02 16:40:56 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1952 2013-04-02 16:41:12 sydna has joined
1953 2013-04-02 16:41:13 <Graet> i dont see litecoin as a threat, what interests me is a bitcoin developer is in #litecoin-dev asking for litecoin to be taken down and if not he will attack it...
1954 2013-04-02 16:41:24 mouseofthesteppe has quit ()
1955 2013-04-02 16:41:41 <lupine> yes, I disagree that that's what was said
1956 2013-04-02 16:42:10 <lupine> I don't really like Luke-Jr, so if he did say it, great, let's hate at him for it
1957 2013-04-02 16:42:26 <Graet> yep you arent getting my point
1958 2013-04-02 16:42:30 <Graet> i'm off to bed
1959 2013-04-02 16:42:34 <sydna> why worry about Litecoin when there's some Instawallet drama to watch?
1960 2013-04-02 16:42:56 <sydna> they let their authentication URLs get indexed by google
1961 2013-04-02 16:43:04 * sydna wipes away laughter tears 
1962 2013-04-02 16:43:06 tucenaber has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1963 2013-04-02 16:43:09 <pjorrit_> ha awesome
1964 2013-04-02 16:43:21 Belkaar has joined
1965 2013-04-02 16:43:25 <sydna> all you needed was the URL, no password.
1966 2013-04-02 16:43:45 <lupine> oh god
1967 2013-04-02 16:43:46 <lupine> surely not?
1968 2013-04-02 16:43:48 grau has joined
1969 2013-04-02 16:43:55 <sydna> I'm being deadly serious
1970 2013-04-02 16:44:19 <sydna> originally they put up a "we got hacked" message that said no coins have been lost.
1971 2013-04-02 16:44:24 <sydna> now it has been changed to remove that line
1972 2013-04-02 16:44:36 <sydna> and there's 4.5M USD missing from their cold storage account
1973 2013-04-02 16:44:49 <sydna> drama \o/
1974 2013-04-02 16:44:52 <sipa> they claimed they controlled the address that was sent to?
1975 2013-04-02 16:44:53 Yulth has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
1976 2013-04-02 16:44:56 <pjorrit_> WOW that's crazy.. so they fixed it now.. i dont see any urls
1977 2013-04-02 16:45:05 <sydna> sipa: that line is gone now too
1978 2013-04-02 16:45:11 <sydna> pjorrit_: try duckduckgo.com
1979 2013-04-02 16:45:16 <sydna> or bing.com
1980 2013-04-02 16:45:48 <sydna> google and it's cache have been scrubbed, Bing's hasn't
1981 2013-04-02 16:46:01 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1982 2013-04-02 16:46:12 <pjorrit_> lol, awesome, how'd that happen?
1983 2013-04-02 16:46:14 <lupine> http://www.bing.com/search?q=site%3Ainstawallet.com
1984 2013-04-02 16:46:33 i2pRelay has joined
1985 2013-04-02 16:46:42 <pjorrit_> that results in nothing
1986 2013-04-02 16:46:48 <redeeman> http://www.bing.com/search?q=site%3Ainstawallet.org&go=&qs=ds&form=QBRE
1987 2013-04-02 16:46:49 <pjorrit_> but duckduckgo works
1988 2013-04-02 16:47:23 <sydna> a few hours ago Google gave thousands of results
1989 2013-04-02 16:47:40 <sydna> people on Bitcointalk mentioned seeing them too
1990 2013-04-02 16:48:19 <bwen> why do people even use online wallets ? O.o
1991 2013-04-02 16:48:21 o8gf5 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1992 2013-04-02 16:49:19 Optimus-Prime has joined
1993 2013-04-02 16:49:50 graingert has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
1994 2013-04-02 16:49:54 FredEE has joined
1995 2013-04-02 16:50:16 matas has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1996 2013-04-02 16:50:25 <sydna> ease of use I suppose. seems like a very efficient method of losing money.
1997 2013-04-02 16:50:46 graingert has joined
1998 2013-04-02 16:51:05 <pjorrit_> yea they're the bomb
1999 2013-04-02 16:51:41 <sydna> you'd be better sending all your coins to my special SatoshiDice address
2000 2013-04-02 16:51:42 <sydna> 1dice7EzWdNMAg6t7Du9hANKtK9G88Zjo
2001 2013-04-02 16:51:57 <sydna> 0% chance, 100% house edge.
2002 2013-04-02 16:52:24 keystroke has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2003 2013-04-02 16:52:37 <wallet421> 0% to win 20999999 BTC
2004 2013-04-02 16:53:06 <sydna> I wanted to make it a tag on blockchain.info, but they don't allow percent characters in tags anymore :(
2005 2013-04-02 16:53:21 Optimus-Prime has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2007 2013-04-02 16:54:33 i2pRelay has joined
2008 2013-04-02 16:55:27 tucenaber has joined
2009 2013-04-02 16:56:17 tre-spective has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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2011 2013-04-02 16:57:39 Optimus-Prime has joined
2012 2013-04-02 16:58:37 tyn has joined
2013 2013-04-02 16:59:03 <wallet421> WTF litecoin?
2014 2013-04-02 16:59:16 <wallet421> 1 month ago: 0.10 USD
2015 2013-04-02 16:59:23 <wallet421> 1 minute ago: 4.20 USD
2016 2013-04-02 16:59:36 <donpdonp> weird.
2017 2013-04-02 17:00:07 nus- has joined
2018 2013-04-02 17:00:10 <donpdonp> wait thats not weird at all.
2019 2013-04-02 17:00:14 <sydna> <wallet421> smoking it up at 4.20
2020 2013-04-02 17:00:30 <wallet421> mining efficiency 750 MHash/s BTC vs 750 KHash/s LTC = 5.81x
2021 2013-04-02 17:00:37 <wallet421> same GPU
2022 2013-04-02 17:00:42 <wallet421> 5.81x more BTC
2023 2013-04-02 17:00:46 Gigitrix-Phone has joined
2024 2013-04-02 17:00:55 <donpdonp> wallet421: by mining litecoin and converting it to bitcoin?
2025 2013-04-02 17:00:58 <area> Won't last for long, but nice while it does
2026 2013-04-02 17:00:59 <wallet421> yeah
2027 2013-04-02 17:01:03 <donpdonp> wallet421: nice find.
2028 2013-04-02 17:01:41 <helo> afaik, the last time this channel was allowed to be offtopic this long, the network event was being addressed
2029 2013-04-02 17:02:05 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2030 2013-04-02 17:02:05 <wallet421> sry im done
2031 2013-04-02 17:02:19 ayalan has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2032 2013-04-02 17:02:22 <sipa> as long as there is nothing on-topic being discussed, i don't care about halfway-offtopic things here
2033 2013-04-02 17:02:37 i2pRelay has joined
2034 2013-04-02 17:03:38 <helo> ahh there we go :)
2035 2013-04-02 17:03:53 Descry has joined
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2038 2013-04-02 17:04:29 <helo> #bitcoin seems to be at the population limit for useful discussion
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2042 2013-04-02 17:05:40 <sydna> usually the core conversations are litecoin, BFL ASIC, or setting up CPU mining..
2043 2013-04-02 17:05:49 <wallet421> what's your opinion on different crypto currencies?
2044 2013-04-02 17:06:20 <sydna> if BTC struggles to get adoption, I can't see anyone supporting BTC and LTC.
2045 2013-04-02 17:06:21 <wallet421> i dont like litecoin in specific, altough i think its good to have more that 1. competition is always good, keeps evolution happening
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2049 2013-04-02 17:06:54 <sydna> LTC aren't adding anything new though, they're (barely) maintaining a fork of bitcoin
2050 2013-04-02 17:07:05 <sydna> they're still back at 0.7.x aren't they?
2051 2013-04-02 17:07:14 <Gigitrix-Phone> Competition os good, but litecoin is not competition
2052 2013-04-02 17:07:15 agricocb has joined
2053 2013-04-02 17:07:25 <bwen> I think competition is healthy. And also I mine ltc for fun with my gpu. Because mining BTC is a bit unless by now, unless you have a farm
2054 2013-04-02 17:07:26 <sydna> 0.6.3. that's cute.
2055 2013-04-02 17:08:03 <wallet421> yes thats true LTC is a bad competition, but its a competition none the less, LTC will vanish i guess but i think for ANY market there shouldnt be a monopoly
2056 2013-04-02 17:08:10 <helo> digital currencies are just too difficult to evaluate, and decentralization means there's no single trusted source to establish consensus
2057 2013-04-02 17:08:20 <wallet421> not for fiat- not for energy- not for crypto currencies
2058 2013-04-02 17:08:30 <Gigitrix-Phone> Litecoin is for jealous miners and speculators to make a quick buck while they can delude people into thinking that a direct reimplementation is worth anything
2059 2013-04-02 17:08:58 <Gigitrix-Phone> Neither blockchain speed nor hash algorithm offer anything AT ALL
2060 2013-04-02 17:09:24 <wallet421> Gigitrix-Phone, agreed
2061 2013-04-02 17:09:29 <lupine> Gigitrix-Phone, there's no real reason why primacy should rule here
2062 2013-04-02 17:09:33 <Gigitrix-Phone> It's fine if you want to play that game, just know what you're getting into hehe
2063 2013-04-02 17:09:42 <sydna> not to mention, LTC failed on it's core premise, an inability to be mined on a GPU
2064 2013-04-02 17:09:50 <lupine> even if it's identical, showing up second doesn't obviously mean you shouldn't exist
2065 2013-04-02 17:09:52 jaequery has joined
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2067 2013-04-02 17:10:07 <lupine> *shrug*
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2069 2013-04-02 17:10:09 <Gigitrix-Phone> Sydna, exactly. I noticr that got defined rather quickly!
2070 2013-04-02 17:10:21 graingert has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
2071 2013-04-02 17:10:22 <lupine> everyone's out to protect their corner
2072 2013-04-02 17:10:27 <sydna> the CPU-only design just begs for people to use botnets to mine anyway. it's hard to legitimately get a lot of CPUs
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2077 2013-04-02 17:11:34 <aceat64> sydna: does it count as legitimate if I put a CPU miner on every server at a datacenter I work at? (note: I have not done this)
2078 2013-04-02 17:11:40 <aceat64> =)
2079 2013-04-02 17:11:52 <wallet421> aceat64, haha
2080 2013-04-02 17:11:52 <Gigitrix-Phone> Lupine i disagree, it's identical nature combined with it's lack of fundamental disaster is a recipe for irrelevance once it hits the first hurdle
2081 2013-04-02 17:11:53 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2082 2013-04-02 17:12:03 <sydna> probably not, I'd be pretty pissed off if my colo messed with my server
2083 2013-04-02 17:12:22 <sydna> they're not even allowed to touch the thing without my permission
2084 2013-04-02 17:12:24 <wallet421> aceat64, well the sever load is 10% and your employer doesnt play for energy...
2085 2013-04-02 17:12:39 <wallet421> ;)
2086 2013-04-02 17:12:41 <wallet421> JK
2087 2013-04-02 17:12:56 <aceat64> sydna: I wouldn't have access to colo boxes, so you'd be safe :)
2088 2013-04-02 17:13:10 pacpac has joined
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2091 2013-04-02 17:13:21 <sydna> just google DORK for a botnet, I'm sure that is possible in some way
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2093 2013-04-02 17:13:25 <Gigitrix-Phone> I certainly see value in innovation like Ripple and Namecoin but the current crop of altchains do not seem like they will succeed at all
2094 2013-04-02 17:13:36 BlackPrapor has joined
2095 2013-04-02 17:13:44 <lolant> Gigitrix-Phone: ripple?
2096 2013-04-02 17:13:55 <aceat64> Gigitrix-Phone: PPCoin seems somewhat innovative
2097 2013-04-02 17:14:01 <aceat64> proof-of-stake vs proof-of-work
2098 2013-04-02 17:14:26 rdymac has joined
2099 2013-04-02 17:14:29 <sydna> man, that's one ugly website
2100 2013-04-02 17:14:35 <Gigitrix-Phone> And if Litecoin succeeds along with Bitcoin it would be a shame because we gain all the costs of implementing competing standards with none of the diversification benefits
2101 2013-04-02 17:14:56 nus- has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2102 2013-04-02 17:15:34 <Gigitrix-Phone> Proof of stake is interesting but remains something academically interesting rather than something that truly offers purpose to its users
2103 2013-04-02 17:16:42 <Gigitrix-Phone> I applaud the experimentation but I can't see it taking off separately.
2104 2013-04-02 17:16:43 ligar_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2105 2013-04-02 17:16:50 <aceat64> Gigitrix-Phone: I think the issue with proof-of-stake is maining in initial distribution right?
2106 2013-04-02 17:16:50 <sydna> the only bitcoin fork that is useful to users is the one that doesn't relay 1dice* TX
2107 2013-04-02 17:17:35 <aceat64> I thought it might be neat to do a proof-of-stake block chain with the initial distribution given to exhisting hackerspaces, just for fun
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2109 2013-04-02 17:18:25 <aceat64> sydna: we shouldn't be in the business of defining what is an acceptable use of bitcoins, if SD is doing something to harm the system then we need to fix the system
2110 2013-04-02 17:18:26 <Gigitrix-Phone> Aceat64 Yeah I am unclear on the specifics, I have certainly entertained the idea of a blockchain powered MMO though
2111 2013-04-02 17:18:29 <aceat64> not block SD
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2114 2013-04-02 17:18:57 <Gigitrix-Phone> Yeah you can't police the blockchain: you define rules and watch what happens.
2115 2013-04-02 17:18:58 <wallet421> aceat64, "the system" is the human
2116 2013-04-02 17:19:09 <wallet421> you can't fix that
2117 2013-04-02 17:19:15 <wallet421> ppl wanna gamble
2118 2013-04-02 17:19:24 <wallet421> thats why there are laws to protect them
2119 2013-04-02 17:19:24 <aceat64> wallet421: I think sydna is talking about dust transactions flooding the network and clogging the chain
2120 2013-04-02 17:19:28 <wallet421> from their instincts
2121 2013-04-02 17:19:44 <aceat64> SD is basically a bitcoin grinder lol
2122 2013-04-02 17:19:50 <Gigitrix-Phone> Miners may ultimately reject them, we'll see what happens. Personally I'd rather btc stepped up to the plate and scaled up.
2123 2013-04-02 17:20:09 <sydna> scaling up means that users have to use lite clients
2124 2013-04-02 17:20:20 <sydna> it's already at that point. bitcoin-qt is too heavy for normal use
2125 2013-04-02 17:20:46 <sydna> I'm more than used to obtuse software like GPG, and bitcoin-qt is just too much
2126 2013-04-02 17:20:49 <aceat64> sydna: really? I run bitcoin-qt on my desktop without issue, I'll have to check it's CPU and memory usage next time I am home
2127 2013-04-02 17:21:11 <Gigitrix-Phone> I also had a thought about a "wargames" blockchain. Hear me out, typing on phone.
2128 2013-04-02 17:21:28 <sydna> if I leave it open constantly, it drains my battery and fills my network up.
2129 2013-04-02 17:21:37 <area> Gigitrix-Phone: Wouldn't catch on, as the only winning move would be not to mine
2130 2013-04-02 17:21:47 <sydna> if I open it every few days, it slams my macbook for 15 minutes.
2131 2013-04-02 17:21:51 [\\\] has joined
2132 2013-04-02 17:22:32 <Gigitrix-Phone> So what happens is you swap out the crypto for address generation and mining etc etc with purposely weak algos like say MD5
2133 2013-04-02 17:22:37 gagecolton has joined
2134 2013-04-02 17:22:44 <wallet421> CPU usage is not much if the blockchain is validated
2135 2013-04-02 17:22:49 <Gigitrix-Phone> So even holding coins is risky
2136 2013-04-02 17:22:53 <wallet421> but that takes a looong time already
2137 2013-04-02 17:22:59 <sydna> wallet421: 100% on 8 cores
2138 2013-04-02 17:23:07 <mouseofthesteppe> 190109, is anyone else stuck on this block in qt in ubuntu?
2139 2013-04-02 17:23:10 <jaequery> hi im working on a script that transfers bitcoin to addressX, im not sure what is the best way to go about it, anyone?
2140 2013-04-02 17:23:11 nsillik_ has joined
2141 2013-04-02 17:23:17 <sydna> MD5 isn't that weak, just a preimage attack.
2142 2013-04-02 17:23:19 <wallet421> i just got a new server
2143 2013-04-02 17:23:20 <wallet421> 8 core
2144 2013-04-02 17:23:27 <wallet421> i'll time the catchup
2145 2013-04-02 17:23:28 <Gigitrix-Phone> And mining coins can be made more efficient through vulns and shortcuts
2146 2013-04-02 17:23:33 <mouseofthesteppe> and then getting error opening block database?
2147 2013-04-02 17:23:39 <sydna> if there was a second preimage attack, then I'd be more worried about it.
2148 2013-04-02 17:23:40 <Gigitrix-Phone> Well yeah I'm using MD5 as example
2149 2013-04-02 17:23:42 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2150 2013-04-02 17:23:58 <Gigitrix-Phone> Ypu don't want something BROKEN, just weak
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2153 2013-04-02 17:24:11 <sydna> wallet421: 8 cores on a laptop is different to on a server.
2154 2013-04-02 17:24:11 jurov has joined
2155 2013-04-02 17:24:25 <redeeman> can anyone tell me how the "move" rpc call differs from just sending the amounts to yourself?
2156 2013-04-02 17:24:29 <Gigitrix-Phone> So you release a blockchain with cracks in ot (proverbially)
2157 2013-04-02 17:24:56 <Gigitrix-Phone> And the idea is you provide an end date and a timestamp
2158 2013-04-02 17:25:19 sfraise has joined
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2160 2013-04-02 17:25:23 nsillik_ is now known as nsillik
2161 2013-04-02 17:25:49 <Gigitrix-Phone> The person who can prove ownership of the highest balance of FlawedCoin across his her multiple addresses wins the bounty
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2164 2013-04-02 17:26:30 <Gigitrix-Phone> You'd have people subverting each other through blockchain forks, address brute forcing etc
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2166 2013-04-02 17:26:46 <aceat64> mouseofthesteppe: have you tried running with -rescan?
2167 2013-04-02 17:26:57 <sfraise> Is anyone working on a new banking system?
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2169 2013-04-02 17:27:19 <aceat64> sfraise: I think it's called bitcoin =P
2170 2013-04-02 17:27:28 <Gigitrix-Phone> You'd have to tune the "weakness" of the blockchain but it'd be rrally interesting to see a bitcoin failure mode in a sandbox environment
2171 2013-04-02 17:27:53 <aceat64> Gigitrix-Phone: sounds fun
2172 2013-04-02 17:28:11 <sfraise> lol aceat64, bitcoin's a currency, I'm talking about a banking system to deposit, earn interest, and get loans
2173 2013-04-02 17:28:54 <Gigitrix-Phone> I imagine all the strategies like whether to risk hoarding coins in one high profile address or diversifying
2174 2013-04-02 17:29:04 <aceat64> sfraise: isn't the "banking system" just a way for independent banks to transfer money between themselves?
2175 2013-04-02 17:29:47 <mouseofthesteppe> aceat64: i have had in the two attempts with two vms on ubuntu, stops some point around the 100,000 block database, and then i have to kill the process, and when i try to open it i get 'error opening database'. if i were to do a rescan, i dont think i could because by the time it breaks and i want to get back in it tells me to start again because of that error.
2176 2013-04-02 17:30:04 <Gigitrix-Phone> Banks are all the little pieces like loans and stocks too, pieces of which are all being worked on
2177 2013-04-02 17:30:19 <sfraise> no, the whole point is currently there doesn't seem to be a viable legit place to save your bitcoins to where they'll actually earn an interest rate, right now everyone's just virtually "stuffing them under their mattress"
2178 2013-04-02 17:30:30 <mouseofthesteppe> aceat64: it seems like the people in this thread are having the same problem: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=4s31p0ahes9ak0kbfkp32e43h2&topic=155140.20
2179 2013-04-02 17:30:32 lumos has left ("Leaving")
2180 2013-04-02 17:30:47 <HM> argh
2181 2013-04-02 17:31:07 <HM> sucks that you need to link against boost_filesystem just to get boost::filesystem::path::preferred_separator
2182 2013-04-02 17:31:40 <Gigitrix-Phone> Sfraise, bitcoin investments and businesses are so new that "investing" in them is worse than a HYIP. Establishing trust and real investor confidence is yet to come.
2183 2013-04-02 17:31:45 <mouseofthesteppe> is it safe to give people that php session id like i just did?
2184 2013-04-02 17:32:06 <sydna> I don't think vB cares
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2186 2013-04-02 17:32:17 <aceat64> sfraise: how do you think banks make money? they loan money out, I don't think there is much demand for bitcoin loans right now
2187 2013-04-02 17:32:19 <sydna> wait, it's SMF
2188 2013-04-02 17:32:31 <sfraise> I think you're wrong gigitrix and aceat64
2189 2013-04-02 17:32:56 <sfraise> there are always people that want a loan, look at the people dying to preorder one of the new asic machines
2190 2013-04-02 17:32:58 <mouseofthesteppe> right now i'm stuck, dont know how to download 0.8.1, hopefully the people in that thread will find out
2191 2013-04-02 17:33:24 <sydna> 0.8.1 is on sourceforge.
2192 2013-04-02 17:33:27 <sydna> I am running it fine
2193 2013-04-02 17:33:34 <sydna> 10.8.3, SSD
2194 2013-04-02 17:33:59 <mouseofthesteppe> sydna: you didnt download from the ppa like i did?
2195 2013-04-02 17:34:11 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2196 2013-04-02 17:34:16 <aceat64> mouseofthesteppe: are you on 32 or 64 bit?
2197 2013-04-02 17:34:34 <aceat64> I'm running off the PPA currently on 12.10
2198 2013-04-02 17:34:38 <mouseofthesteppe> well the guest is on 32 but the host is on 64, why?
2199 2013-04-02 17:34:44 i2pRelay has joined
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2201 2013-04-02 17:35:28 <mouseofthesteppe> 12.10 is way too slow on my pc, apparently we have to have a really modern pc for it, which is nuts this is linux
2202 2013-04-02 17:35:35 <aceat64> mouseofthesteppe: sometimes bugs are related to common factors, such as arch, library versions, etc
2203 2013-04-02 17:35:45 <sydna> heh, Debian runs fine on my 400Mhz machine
2204 2013-04-02 17:35:59 <sydna> well enough that I didn't realise it has 192MB of RAM
2205 2013-04-02 17:36:03 <aceat64> Unity in 12.10 sucks more then usual, but that's probably too off-topic
2206 2013-04-02 17:36:16 doublec has joined
2207 2013-04-02 17:36:18 <Gigitrix-Phone> sfraise loans are a bit different, more of a transaction. The ability to invest in a loan *company* specialising in such transactions woukd count
2208 2013-04-02 17:36:46 <Gigitrix-Phone> But no established oppertunity like that exists to my knowledge
2209 2013-04-02 17:36:49 <aceat64> sfraise: are you asking if anyone has done work to have loans as a supported transaction in the blockchain?
2210 2013-04-02 17:36:57 <mouseofthesteppe> sydna: yeah but does debian have an updated ppa. I can't compile anything cuz code drives me nuts so i've only used the ppa, and i sure miss the ubuntu 10s but those are outdated now
2211 2013-04-02 17:37:22 sfraise has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2212 2013-04-02 17:37:35 <sydna> haha, it's big endian, so it can't even run bitcoind
2213 2013-04-02 17:38:10 <aceat64> mouseofthesteppe: check the debug.log btw
2214 2013-04-02 17:38:20 <mouseofthesteppe> is there a guide for downloading bitcoin-qt off sourceforge into a linux?
2215 2013-04-02 17:38:20 <aceat64> it should be in ~/.bitcoin/debug.log
2216 2013-04-02 17:38:26 Gigitrix-Phone is now known as gigitrix_walking
2217 2013-04-02 17:38:38 <aceat64> mouseofthesteppe: super easy, apt-get build-dep bitcoin-qt
2218 2013-04-02 17:38:42 hydrogenesis has joined
2219 2013-04-02 17:38:43 <aceat64> if you are on the PPA
2220 2013-04-02 17:38:49 <aceat64> that will install dependencies for building
2221 2013-04-02 17:38:51 gigitrix_walking is now known as gigitrix_afk
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2224 2013-04-02 17:40:09 <mouseofthesteppe> aceat64: yeah but wouldnt i be downloading the same version off the ppa as from sourceforge?
2225 2013-04-02 17:40:29 <aceat64> then download the tarbar and follow the instructions for building
2226 2013-04-02 17:40:31 <mouseofthesteppe> aceat64: so its just those three lines into the terminal?
2227 2013-04-02 17:40:42 <aceat64> build-dep just grabs the dependencies for building
2228 2013-04-02 17:41:15 <mouseofthesteppe> whats the command for download the tarbar?
2229 2013-04-02 17:41:24 <aceat64> optionally you can just follow the info in bitcoin / doc / readme-qt.rst
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2232 2013-04-02 17:42:16 <aceat64> mouseofthesteppe: http://bitcoin.org/en/download 4th link
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2234 2013-04-02 17:43:01 Tritonio__ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2235 2013-04-02 17:43:11 <mouseofthesteppe> thanks
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2239 2013-04-02 17:44:10 sydna has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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2243 2013-04-02 17:46:28 <sfraise> stupid connection
2244 2013-04-02 17:48:21 <sfraise> anyway, I think there's a market for bitcoin loans and a demand for a way for bitcoins to earn while they're stored, I can build a system out on a lamp system, I have a friend that does online banking hardening for a living that could help ensure it's as secure as possible, the only thing holding me back is how to ensure borrowers are held accountable given the nature of bitcoin
2245 2013-04-02 17:48:44 wallet42 has joined
2246 2013-04-02 17:49:19 <sfraise> plus you have to walk a fine line here in the US, and future laws on bitcoin have to be considered
2247 2013-04-02 17:49:32 <phantomcircuit> sfraise, hint, in general your have it backwards
2248 2013-04-02 17:49:42 <phantomcircuit> depositors should be paying you to safeguard their money
2249 2013-04-02 17:50:06 <phantomcircuit> also im pretty sure that under currently us law that would be totally illegal
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2251 2013-04-02 17:50:15 <phantomcircuit> unless you were a bank
2252 2013-04-02 17:50:17 <tockitj> sfraise, if you wish - i can take care of security :D
2253 2013-04-02 17:50:34 <tockitj> what interest rate are you thinking about sfraise ?
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2256 2013-04-02 17:51:05 <sfraise> phantomcircuit, secuity isn't the draw, allowing a person's bitcoins to grow while they save them is
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2258 2013-04-02 17:51:54 <sfraise> interest rate would have to start out extremely low and the benchmark would have to be calculated constantly just like in a real market
2259 2013-04-02 17:52:34 <tockitj> what to do about defaulting customers ?
2260 2013-04-02 17:52:49 <phantomcircuit> tockitj, cry in the corner
2261 2013-04-02 17:53:07 <sfraise> well that's just it tockitj, how do you hold the borrower accountable given the nature of bitcoin
2262 2013-04-02 17:53:08 <MC1984> phantomcircuit you know in the UK even current accounts actually earn a tiny amount of interest
2263 2013-04-02 17:53:11 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2264 2013-04-02 17:53:36 <tockitj> sfraise, you don't - you should pick borowers that can give money back
2265 2013-04-02 17:53:40 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, tiny? it's usually more than a savings account in the us earns
2266 2013-04-02 17:53:44 <tockitj> via some kind of trust network
2267 2013-04-02 17:53:52 <sfraise> a bank is going to have a default rate, it's a given, the idea is to keep the default under an acceptable rate
2268 2013-04-02 17:53:56 <MC1984> i think i get 0.5% on mine
2269 2013-04-02 17:54:10 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, that being said the effect of inflation is very different on a GBP account than it is on a BTC account
2270 2013-04-02 17:54:18 <tockitj> give small loans with higher interest rate - if customer defaults - simply block him from another loan
2271 2013-04-02 17:54:21 <gavinandresen> MC1984: what is inflation where you are?
2272 2013-04-02 17:54:32 <phantomcircuit> the time value of money vs profits calculation is very different
2273 2013-04-02 17:54:34 <tockitj> and put him on a blacklist that lupine is so fond of
2274 2013-04-02 17:54:35 <MC1984> 3% i think?
2275 2013-04-02 17:54:51 <gavinandresen> MC1984: so you're really paying the bank 2.5% a year to hold your money...
2276 2013-04-02 17:54:56 <sfraise> well I guess you could start a bitcoin equivilant to a credit score, but there's a long time lapse before it becomes useful
2277 2013-04-02 17:55:03 <MC1984> gavinandresen yes i dont dispute that
2278 2013-04-02 17:55:14 <phantomcircuit> so like i said
2279 2013-04-02 17:55:19 <phantomcircuit> depositors should be paying the bank
2280 2013-04-02 17:55:22 <phantomcircuit> not the other way around
2281 2013-04-02 17:55:31 <gavinandresen> most people have no clue about nominal versus real interest rates
2282 2013-04-02 17:55:34 <MC1984> but we dont directly pay for accounts
2283 2013-04-02 17:55:34 <phantomcircuit> it's why all of the savings and loan type scheme seem to fail
2284 2013-04-02 17:55:40 <MC1984> unlike in the US i gather
2285 2013-04-02 17:56:07 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, depends i have free checking as long as i dont talk to a person
2286 2013-04-02 17:56:12 <phantomcircuit> which is fine with me
2287 2013-04-02 17:56:41 <MC1984> its still true that youll find it difficult to sae above inflation any way, so its all moot
2288 2013-04-02 17:56:50 <MC1984> meanwhile in bitcoinland.......
2289 2013-04-02 17:57:14 <phantomcircuit> it's effectively impossible to stay above inflation without productive investments
2290 2013-04-02 17:57:29 jdnavarro has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2291 2013-04-02 17:57:41 <phantomcircuit> im not aware of any federally guaranteed savings device which beats inflation
2292 2013-04-02 17:57:45 <MC1984> most normal people cant and dont know how to actually invest
2293 2013-04-02 17:57:49 <gavinandresen> yes, if you want to make an above-inflation-rate-return you need to take a risk
2294 2013-04-02 17:57:51 <flyingkiwiguy> do note that when you loan money to a bank (i.e. in a savings or CD acct) you are no more than a creditor to a highly leaveraged business
2295 2013-04-02 17:58:12 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, depends on what your time scale is
2296 2013-04-02 17:58:17 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2297 2013-04-02 17:58:25 <MC1984> which means that the comman man essentially gets a demurrage, and the upper classes can safeguard their wealth and even massively increase it
2298 2013-04-02 17:58:33 deadweasel has joined
2299 2013-04-02 17:58:38 <MC1984> OCCUPY MONEY
2300 2013-04-02 17:58:38 <phantomcircuit> statistically over a long period of time the dow has beaten inflation by just a hair
2301 2013-04-02 17:58:42 <flyingkiwiguy> as shown in Cyprus you may not get your deposits back, so any discussion about negative real interest rates don't take bank failure into account
2302 2013-04-02 17:58:48 i2pRelay has joined
2303 2013-04-02 17:58:55 TD has joined
2304 2013-04-02 17:59:21 <tockitj> sfraise, i would think a lot of trust networks and exploiting social stuff like facebook for small loans
2305 2013-04-02 17:59:29 <tockitj> in the end - it is all about trust
2306 2013-04-02 17:59:46 <MC1984> i think i remember when inflation hit 5% not long after the crisis began, and the highest saving account was the BoE base rate which was 0.5%
2307 2013-04-02 17:59:50 <MC1984> thats a savings account
2308 2013-04-02 17:59:59 <phantomcircuit> flyingkiwiguy, lol yeah it's like the people who hold T Bills and are also counting on social security
2309 2013-04-02 18:00:06 <phantomcircuit> flyingkiwiguy, one or the other, but not both
2310 2013-04-02 18:00:28 <flyingkiwiguy> Apple is one of the largest US Treasury holders
2311 2013-04-02 18:00:40 <flyingkiwiguy> $60B from memory
2312 2013-04-02 18:00:41 <sfraise> tockitj, you might actually be on to something there...
2313 2013-04-02 18:00:44 <phantomcircuit> one of the largest private
2314 2013-04-02 18:00:46 <MC1984> phantomcircuit isnt dow well up again?
2315 2013-04-02 18:00:54 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, all time high
2316 2013-04-02 18:01:04 <phantomcircuit> the social security trust fund is the single largest holder of us treasuries
2317 2013-04-02 18:01:04 <MC1984> fucking inequality mang
2318 2013-04-02 18:01:16 <flyingkiwiguy> true
2319 2013-04-02 18:01:16 Ashaman has joined
2320 2013-04-02 18:01:45 <tockitj> there might be a lot of money in that domain i think - if you were to run your service as say.. tor hidden service
2321 2013-04-02 18:01:55 <sfraise> that would be some revolutionary stuff right there if you could develop a formula to base credit risk off of social networking
2322 2013-04-02 18:02:02 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2323 2013-04-02 18:02:04 <MC1984> gavinandresen sometimes just having money in a bank account is the risk, ask cyprus
2324 2013-04-02 18:02:09 <tockitj> you could compete with banks - on account of not paying taxes - and work on global market (:
2325 2013-04-02 18:02:15 <phantomcircuit> people who talk about social security being funded are just lying to themselves
2326 2013-04-02 18:02:22 <phantomcircuit> social security ran out of cash last year
2327 2013-04-02 18:02:31 <phantomcircuit> they're selling treasury bonds now
2328 2013-04-02 18:02:38 <tockitj> key would be trust and recommendations
2329 2013-04-02 18:02:43 <phantomcircuit> they have something like 6 trillion usd worth of them
2330 2013-04-02 18:02:47 <sfraise> well the allure to bitcoin is its decentralized with no government control
2331 2013-04-02 18:03:06 <phantomcircuit> do people really think they're going to be able to sell all of those without causing the federal government serious problems
2332 2013-04-02 18:03:07 Gigitrix-PhoneIs has joined
2333 2013-04-02 18:03:28 <tockitj> sfraise, yes - it is new and revolutionary (:
2334 2013-04-02 18:03:29 <sfraise> the risk of a government seizure wouldn't exist in a bitcoin bank, but it's also not insured so the risk transfers to the stability of the bank
2335 2013-04-02 18:03:43 <MC1984> i dunno
2336 2013-04-02 18:03:52 <MC1984> gold seizures seemed to work well
2337 2013-04-02 18:04:00 <tockitj> bitcoin in foreign currency to any state - and yet - it is within reach of any customer
2338 2013-04-02 18:04:08 <tockitj> s/in/is/
2339 2013-04-02 18:04:11 <MC1984> at the very least they could toss you in jail
2340 2013-04-02 18:04:14 <flyingkiwiguy> since we're OT check out this article about Bitcoin from a monetary theory perspective - http://pragcap.com/is-bitcoin-money
2341 2013-04-02 18:04:56 <flyingkiwiguy> MC1984: easy for the US to enlarge the scope of its "War On Drugs" in include Bitcoin
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2343 2013-04-02 18:05:06 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2344 2013-04-02 18:05:24 <MC1984> i had hoped the war on drugs was winding down
2345 2013-04-02 18:05:32 <MC1984> but youre probably right
2346 2013-04-02 18:05:51 [\\\] has joined
2347 2013-04-02 18:05:58 <flyingkiwiguy> one way to deligitimise Bitcoin is to link it with "evil drugs" and increase the DEA's scope to include investigating Bitcoin merchants
2348 2013-04-02 18:06:04 <MC1984> america loves its endless unwinnable and vaguely defined wars
2349 2013-04-02 18:06:15 <MC1984> if theres not criteria for success, then you cant possible fail!
2350 2013-04-02 18:06:20 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2351 2013-04-02 18:06:47 <phantomcircuit> oh but you can
2352 2013-04-02 18:06:50 <flyingkiwiguy> more that if you make a bogeyman big enough people will happily give away their freedoms to save themselves from it
2353 2013-04-02 18:06:52 hydrogenesis has joined
2354 2013-04-02 18:06:52 i2pRelay has joined
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2356 2013-04-02 18:06:58 <sfraise> well it all boils down to whether bitcoin is legally considered a currency in the US, which I believe it is now
2357 2013-04-02 18:07:39 * flyingkiwiguy thought that currency needs to be issued by a govermnet
2358 2013-04-02 18:07:45 <MC1984> logic dictats that a big move against bitcoin for drugs/laundering/whatever would have to be accompanied by taking every dollar bill out of circulation
2359 2013-04-02 18:07:52 Gigitrix-PhoneIs has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2360 2013-04-02 18:08:14 <flyingkiwiguy> logic? the war on drugs is illogical, but it still continues
2361 2013-04-02 18:08:27 <MC1984> im hoping that various actors see the utility of moving black funds around with bitcoin rather than pallets of cash
2362 2013-04-02 18:08:38 <flyingkiwiguy> Americans are buying more drugs now than they did before.
2363 2013-04-02 18:09:13 <flyingkiwiguy> The two European nations that have redefined drugs as medical problems rather than criminal have the lowest related drug crime stats in the OECD
2364 2013-04-02 18:09:54 lodse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2365 2013-04-02 18:09:55 <flyingkiwiguy> too OT? :-)
2366 2013-04-02 18:10:30 <MC1984> we always seem to come to drugs pedos and murrika in here eventually
2367 2013-04-02 18:10:36 <flyingkiwiguy> heh
2368 2013-04-02 18:10:42 DobZombie has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2369 2013-04-02 18:11:05 <pjorrit_> those are what life is all about isnt it? :D
2370 2013-04-02 18:11:07 sfraise has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2371 2013-04-02 18:11:20 <flyingkiwiguy> in any case, whence gold hath gone, Bitcoins will follow too - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102
2372 2013-04-02 18:11:31 mappum has joined
2373 2013-04-02 18:11:32 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2374 2013-04-02 18:11:39 <pjorrit_> easier to hide bitcoins under your mattress though
2375 2013-04-02 18:12:47 <phantomcircuit> flyingkiwiguy, iirc that only worked because people figured they could get it back in return for their bills
2376 2013-04-02 18:12:56  has quit (Clown|!~clown@unaffiliated/clown/x-0272709|Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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2382 2013-04-02 18:13:35 <flyingkiwiguy> pjorrit_: sorry to burst your (Bitcoin) bubble - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law
2383 2013-04-02 18:13:49 <sfraise> irc sucks, I always get disconnected from the dumb thing
2384 2013-04-02 18:13:57 enikanorov_ has joined
2385 2013-04-02 18:14:04 <wumpus> yeah it's always about the us govt, how boring, can I remind people this is bitcoin-dev?
2386 2013-04-02 18:14:13 <MC1984> there is already no right to silcence regarding encryption keys where i live
2387 2013-04-02 18:14:23 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2388 2013-04-02 18:14:48 <flyingkiwiguy> of course, the obvious method is to have two wallets and two keys...
2389 2013-04-02 18:14:50 <MC1984> for most things i might keep under hard encryption, id rather do the 5 years than disclose though
2390 2013-04-02 18:14:55 <sfraise> well wumpus, the discussion was actually around if it's viable to develop a bitcoin bank that lends and pays interested on deposited bitcoins
2391 2013-04-02 18:14:58 i2pRelay has joined
2392 2013-04-02 18:15:08 <sfraise> which then turned into a legal issue for the US
2393 2013-04-02 18:15:10 <sfraise> lol
2394 2013-04-02 18:15:13 <flyingkiwiguy> heh
2395 2013-04-02 18:15:33 hatsaresilly1 has joined
2396 2013-04-02 18:15:38 <wumpus> yes I saw but all the 'oh no the us govt will go after bitcoin' hysteria doesn't belong here, it's an international channel
2397 2013-04-02 18:15:42 <flyingkiwiguy> a Bitcoin bank is key (pun intended) to widespread adoption
2398 2013-04-02 18:15:44 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
2399 2013-04-02 18:15:50 <MC1984> a paranoid schizophrenic with delusions of bing under surveillance byt he state got done for 2 years for not disclosing a truecrypt key a few years back
2400 2013-04-02 18:15:53 hatsaresilly has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2401 2013-04-02 18:16:04 <MC1984> you could say he wasnt paranoid after all
2402 2013-04-02 18:16:06 <flyingkiwiguy> agreed wumpus
2403 2013-04-02 18:16:09 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2404 2013-04-02 18:16:12 hydrogenesis has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
2405 2013-04-02 18:16:21 Alex-nod32 has joined
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2407 2013-04-02 18:16:24 <bwen> sfraise: you already generate interests... dont need a centralized bank for that. beside thats just a big target for hackers
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2409 2013-04-02 18:16:38 <sfraise> a person could establish a brick and mortar bank in a country like Panama and then run the bitcoin bank as a branch under Panama banking laws
2410 2013-04-02 18:16:39 <Alex-nod32> hi
2411 2013-04-02 18:16:51 <flyingkiwiguy> is there any way to agree to a transaction at a define time in the future (i.e. interest payment)?
2412 2013-04-02 18:16:57 <Alex-nod32> I need a bit of help
2413 2013-04-02 18:17:03 <MC1984> wumpus completely disregarding the influence the US has these days
2414 2013-04-02 18:17:03 <sfraise> bwen, I'm not talking about a centralized bank, that would go against the bitcoin ideal
2415 2013-04-02 18:17:06 <wumpus> bwen: it would be just like the web wallets
2416 2013-04-02 18:17:31 <MC1984> a US crackdown would probably mean bitcoin is finished in the west, and probably further afeild too
2417 2013-04-02 18:17:31 <bwen> online wallets are still a too big of a target... I avoid them like the plague
2418 2013-04-02 18:17:39 TD has joined
2419 2013-04-02 18:17:54 <MC1984> the states greatest export these days is legislation
2420 2013-04-02 18:17:57 <wumpus> MC1984: I don't want to debate about that, let's just agree it doesn't belong in this channel
2421 2013-04-02 18:17:58 Gigitrix-PhoneIs has joined
2422 2013-04-02 18:18:10 <jaequery> mtgox is the only exchange with an API?
2423 2013-04-02 18:18:13 wallet42 has joined
2424 2013-04-02 18:18:13 <bwen> wumpus++
2425 2013-04-02 18:18:17 <MC1984> oh this is dev
2426 2013-04-02 18:18:21 <tockitj> MC1984, yeah - no competition there
2427 2013-04-02 18:18:31 <MC1984> sory i though this was #bitcoin!
2428 2013-04-02 18:18:48 <tockitj> omg, i thought so too
2429 2013-04-02 18:18:49 <tockitj> sorry
2430 2013-04-02 18:19:09 lodse has joined
2431 2013-04-02 18:19:27 <sfraise> lol anyway, legality aside, the DEVELOPMENT issue is how to create a method of accountability for borrowers
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2435 2013-04-02 18:20:35 <sfraise> one step towards that is developing a credit score system
2436 2013-04-02 18:20:40 mercerist has joined
2437 2013-04-02 18:20:52 <flyingkiwiguy> anonymous credit score
2438 2013-04-02 18:20:57 <bwen> sfraise, loaning bitcoins... its a plan to fail. and it wont happen. We already have a debt system all over us... Hopefully bitcoin wont be one of em
2439 2013-04-02 18:20:58 <Alex-nod32> lol
2440 2013-04-02 18:21:01 <Alex-nod32> :)
2441 2013-04-02 18:21:27 <sfraise> bwen, there's a demand for bitcoin loans and someone's going to fill it
2442 2013-04-02 18:21:38 brson has joined
2443 2013-04-02 18:21:50 <sfraise> well that's the trick isn't it flyingkiwiguy
2444 2013-04-02 18:21:52 <bwen> their gonna be robbed more than once
2445 2013-04-02 18:21:56 <bwen> good luck with that
2446 2013-04-02 18:21:59 <tockitj> sfraise, it might be like user controlled bank - users who deposit money join together to lend money to other users (borrowers)
2447 2013-04-02 18:22:05 <tockitj> and they all together share risk
2448 2013-04-02 18:22:08 abadr has quit (Quit: abadr)
2449 2013-04-02 18:22:18 BTCOxygen has joined
2450 2013-04-02 18:22:23 <Alex-nod32> ok, really I need a hand here ... I didn't mine coins for about 2 years now ... since they dipped to $5 per BTC ... and I got an old version of the wallet ... where should I stick my old wallet.dat in version 8.1 ?
2451 2013-04-02 18:22:25 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2452 2013-04-02 18:22:26 <tockitj> if borower defaults - damage is distributed to all shareholders
2453 2013-04-02 18:22:46 <Alex-nod32> anyone know ?
2454 2013-04-02 18:22:51 <wumpus> Alex-nod32: in the same place as before
2455 2013-04-02 18:22:51 <sfraise> tockitj you're talking more along the lines of a p2p system like prosper
2456 2013-04-02 18:22:52 Gigitrix-PhoneIs has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2457 2013-04-02 18:22:56 <tockitj> trust network would be needed to choose borowers that wont default ofcourse (:
2458 2013-04-02 18:22:57 i2pRelay has joined
2459 2013-04-02 18:22:59 <MC1984> Alex-nod32 same place
2460 2013-04-02 18:23:07 <Alex-nod32> ok ...
2461 2013-04-02 18:23:08 <MC1984> back up before you start messing
2462 2013-04-02 18:23:15 <wumpus> indeed, back up carefully
2463 2013-04-02 18:23:18 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2464 2013-04-02 18:23:20 <tockitj> sfraise, i'm not familiar with prosper
2465 2013-04-02 18:23:35 FredEE_ has joined
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2469 2013-04-02 18:23:54 <sfraise> it's a p2p lending site with a similar approach as what you're saying
2470 2013-04-02 18:24:16 <tockitj> here users would deposit and withdraw bitcoins
2471 2013-04-02 18:24:50 <bwen> any credit system is flawed imo
2472 2013-04-02 18:25:00 <bwen> you should be buying somehting you cant afford
2473 2013-04-02 18:25:02 <Alex-nod32> thing is ... I got my data on a cripted drive ( virtual ... ) and the 8.1 is not yet catered for the same way
2474 2013-04-02 18:25:09 <sfraise> on prosper a person deposits money and selects the risk he's willing to take, the higher the risk the higher the interest rate he gets
2475 2013-04-02 18:25:17 <tockitj> if user tries to fraud 'bank' he should be 'blacklisted' and everyone he had transactions with before - might get lesser credit status.. dunno..
2476 2013-04-02 18:25:23 ch3r3nk0v has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2477 2013-04-02 18:25:31 nova90 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2478 2013-04-02 18:25:42 <tockitj> maybe there is a way to use transaction log as part of trust network
2479 2013-04-02 18:25:43 <sfraise> then the person looking for a loan is scored
2480 2013-04-02 18:26:09 <wumpus> Alex-nod32: you can always use -datadir= to point it at another data dir
2481 2013-04-02 18:26:13 <tockitj> well idea is to find & give loans to people who intend and can pay you back
2482 2013-04-02 18:26:20 [\\\] has joined
2483 2013-04-02 18:26:45 <tockitj> there is large market for this
2484 2013-04-02 18:26:48 Bluetegu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2485 2013-04-02 18:27:24 <sfraise> i agree tock, the anonymous nature of bitcoin is the hitch in the wagon here
2486 2013-04-02 18:27:35 <bwen> lol
2487 2013-04-02 18:27:42 <sipa> bitcoin is not anonymous!
2488 2013-04-02 18:28:00 <Eliel> plus, any lending system on top of bitcoin doesn't have to be anonymous either.
2489 2013-04-02 18:28:17 <tockitj> but you can verify people with say facebook - and take as borrowers only those with good recommendations from friends (which are trustworthy)
2490 2013-04-02 18:28:36 <bwen> facebook xD
2491 2013-04-02 18:28:43 <sfraise> how do you verify someone is really who they say they are though
2492 2013-04-02 18:28:50 <sipa> it's very easy to set up a fake profile with fake friends on facebook :D
2493 2013-04-02 18:28:57 <sfraise> exactly
2494 2013-04-02 18:29:05 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
2495 2013-04-02 18:29:15 <tockitj> hmm.. with lending - number of BTCs is going to go beyond 21 milion
2496 2013-04-02 18:29:23 <sipa> depends
2497 2013-04-02 18:29:31 <bwen> lol
2498 2013-04-02 18:29:32 <sfraise> and it's easy to shuffle bitcoins around and hide identity
2499 2013-04-02 18:29:38 <tockitj> sipa, well i think that fake profiles are easy to recognize
2500 2013-04-02 18:29:46 iddo has quit (Changing host)
2501 2013-04-02 18:29:46 iddo has joined
2502 2013-04-02 18:29:57 <bwen> it'll never go beyond 21million
2503 2013-04-02 18:30:09 <sfraise> well for starters you could do a check against time from when profile was created
2504 2013-04-02 18:30:13 <tockitj> but lending does that bwen
2505 2013-04-02 18:30:21 <bwen> no it cant
2506 2013-04-02 18:30:26 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2507 2013-04-02 18:30:27 <sfraise> but you could have a market emerge of people buying established profiles
2508 2013-04-02 18:30:34 ErnestoJuarell has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2509 2013-04-02 18:30:48 <tockitj> bwn, if say.. i borrow you 100 BTCs with interest of 10 BTCs
2510 2013-04-02 18:30:56 abadr has joined
2511 2013-04-02 18:30:57 <tockitj> i have just created 10 BTCs out of nothing ?
2512 2013-04-02 18:30:57 i2pRelay has joined
2513 2013-04-02 18:31:00 abadr has quit (Client Quit)
2514 2013-04-02 18:31:02 <bwen> you cant apply interrest
2515 2013-04-02 18:31:09 <tockitj> why not ?
2516 2013-04-02 18:31:10 hydrogenesis has joined
2517 2013-04-02 18:31:17 <bwen> the system wont allow you to create bitcoins out of thin air
2518 2013-04-02 18:31:23 <bwen> this isnt like banks
2519 2013-04-02 18:31:31 <tockitj> it just did
2520 2013-04-02 18:31:31 <sipa> you can do fractional reserve banking over bitcoin
2521 2013-04-02 18:31:35 <sfraise> You're not creating bitcoins out of thin air
2522 2013-04-02 18:31:39 <sipa> but you can't increase the M1 supply behind it
2523 2013-04-02 18:31:47 <sipa> also, this is for #bitcoin
2524 2013-04-02 18:31:50 TD has joined
2525 2013-04-02 18:32:12 <sfraise> you taking actual bitcoins at time of repayment with the interest amount in addition to the principal, that's not thin air
2526 2013-04-02 18:32:21 <bwen> sipa: fractional banking creates money out of thin air, which is not doable with bitcoin
2527 2013-04-02 18:32:39 <sipa> bwen: of course it is possible
2528 2013-04-02 18:32:50 <tockitj> sfraise, but if you do not take them all at once - but via attenuation, they will be created out of thin air
2529 2013-04-02 18:32:52 <sfraise> why wouldn't it be possible
2530 2013-04-02 18:32:58 <sipa> bwen: you have a bank account with me; you ask for a loan, i increase the number on your account; DONE
2531 2013-04-02 18:33:07 <tockitj> but sipa is right
2532 2013-04-02 18:33:12 <sipa> bwen: you can't withdraw it as bitcoins, but you won't notice
2533 2013-04-02 18:33:14 Scaglietti has joined
2534 2013-04-02 18:33:23 <sipa> well, not everyone can withdraw all bitcoins simultaneously
2535 2013-04-02 18:33:30 ErnestoJuarell has joined
2536 2013-04-02 18:33:46 <bwen> and if they do?
2537 2013-04-02 18:33:49 Diablo-D3 has joined
2538 2013-04-02 18:33:52 <sipa> then you go bankrupt
2539 2013-04-02 18:33:54 <sipa> *me
2540 2013-04-02 18:34:16 <tockitj> right
2541 2013-04-02 18:34:19 <bwen> well its not like the government... you'll be in deep shit
2542 2013-04-02 18:34:22 <sfraise> its just like any real bank, if everyone makes a run on the bank the bank fails and people lose money, just like what happened in the us in the 20's
2543 2013-04-02 18:36:11 <sfraise> A person has to make a choice, take a bit of risk and let my bitcoins earn while they sit, or don't take a risk and let my bitcoins value decline with inflation
2544 2013-04-02 18:36:14 topace_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2545 2013-04-02 18:37:00 <bwen> yeah I made my should. I'm gonna secure my own coins and they'll profit
2546 2013-04-02 18:37:04 graingert_ has joined
2547 2013-04-02 18:37:04 graingert_ has quit (Changing host)
2548 2013-04-02 18:37:04 graingert_ has joined
2549 2013-04-02 18:37:07 dlb76 has joined
2550 2013-04-02 18:37:10 <bwen> made my choice*
2551 2013-04-02 18:37:12 <sfraise> in my mind there is no question that there is a market for it and that it is possible to build, the logistics on how to curb defaults is the issue
2552 2013-04-02 18:37:19 graingert_ has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2553 2013-04-02 18:37:48 <bwen> I hate the banking system as it is. I still think its fraud
2554 2013-04-02 18:37:50 Silverion has joined
2555 2013-04-02 18:38:26 <MC1984>  and let my bitcoins value decline with inflation
2556 2013-04-02 18:38:27 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2557 2013-04-02 18:38:31 <MC1984> fuck am i reading
2558 2013-04-02 18:38:31 <tockitj> sfraise, don't handle defaults - work with customers you trust
2559 2013-04-02 18:38:37 <sfraise> a government backed and falsely propped up banking system like we have in the US now is bad
2560 2013-04-02 18:38:47 <MC1984> nevermind, this is still dev
2561 2013-04-02 18:38:48 <MC1984> dammit
2562 2013-04-02 18:38:59 i2pRelay has joined
2563 2013-04-02 18:39:06 <sfraise> tock, the problem is I don't trust anyone lol
2564 2013-04-02 18:39:23 BenderCoin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2565 2013-04-02 18:39:34 <sfraise> or better yet, like the saying goes, trust but verify
2566 2013-04-02 18:39:41 <sipa> yeah, can you move this to #bitcoin ?
2567 2013-04-02 18:40:40 hydrogenesis has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
2568 2013-04-02 18:40:59 BenderCoin has joined
2569 2013-04-02 18:41:00 sfraise has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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2574 2013-04-02 18:43:28 graingert_ is now known as Guest73096
2575 2013-04-02 18:44:00 <bwen> is there a plan to add more hooks like -walletnotify, maybe for confirmations?
2576 2013-04-02 18:44:07 fishfish has joined
2577 2013-04-02 18:44:22 ovidiusoft has joined
2578 2013-04-02 18:44:27 <ErnestoJuarell> Anyone here build bitcoin-qt on Ubuntu?
2579 2013-04-02 18:44:42 <bwen> kubuntu :p
2580 2013-04-02 18:44:57 <mouseofthesteppe> does bitcoin-qt need the libqtgui4 or the libqtgui4 updated to the latest version?
2581 2013-04-02 18:45:06 <ErnestoJuarell> Does the "export" button work correctly for you?
2582 2013-04-02 18:45:11 <Luke-Jr> FWIW, Graet is misrepresenting me as usual
2583 2013-04-02 18:45:12 BTCOxygen is now known as 1!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/btcoxygen|BTCOxygen
2584 2013-04-02 18:45:21 xenesis has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2585 2013-04-02 18:45:22 BenderCoin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2586 2013-04-02 18:45:24 Silverion has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2587 2013-04-02 18:45:28 <bwen> ErnestoJuarell: havent tried it, I use Armory.
2588 2013-04-02 18:45:38 <mouseofthesteppe> ErnestoJuarell: i have but fail due to error downloading blockchain error for some reason
2589 2013-04-02 18:46:07 <ErnestoJuarell> You might be using wrong version of a lib which breaks wallet binary compat
2590 2013-04-02 18:46:22 BenderCoin has joined
2591 2013-04-02 18:46:25 <wumpus> bwen: I don't know, but there is an pull request to use 0mq for all kinds of notifications https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2415
2592 2013-04-02 18:46:29 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2593 2013-04-02 18:46:50 <wumpus> ErnestoJuarell: export button is currently broken on HEAD
2594 2013-04-02 18:46:54 <mouseofthesteppe> ErnestoJuarell: me? but downloading the blockchains supposedly has nothing to do with the wallet.
2595 2013-04-02 18:47:00 <bwen> wumpus: oh my. that would be nice :D
2596 2013-04-02 18:47:00 <wumpus> ErnestoJuarell: there's an issue for it
2597 2013-04-02 18:47:02 i2pRelay has joined
2598 2013-04-02 18:47:09 <ErnestoJuarell> thanks
2599 2013-04-02 18:47:52 coinners_ has left ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com")
2600 2013-04-02 18:48:32 <wumpus> mouseofthesteppe: no, it does not require the latest qt version, block chain downloading has nothing to do with the qt version btw :)
2601 2013-04-02 18:48:39 <Guest73096> mouseofthesteppe: what OS are you on?
2602 2013-04-02 18:48:45 Phraust has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2603 2013-04-02 18:48:47 coinners has joined
2604 2013-04-02 18:49:03 Phraust has joined
2605 2013-04-02 18:49:13 <mouseofthesteppe> guest73096 its an ubuntu guest vm
2606 2013-04-02 18:49:17 <mouseofthesteppe> 11.04
2607 2013-04-02 18:49:32 <Guest73096> mouseofthesteppe: use the ubuntu PPA
2608 2013-04-02 18:49:33 coinners has quit (Client Quit)
2609 2013-04-02 18:49:44 <ErnestoJuarell> "Ubuntu precise has packages for libdb5.1-dev and libdb5.1++-dev,
2610 2013-04-02 18:49:44 <ErnestoJuarell>  but using these will break binary wallet compatibility, and is not recommended."
2611 2013-04-02 18:49:50 <mouseofthesteppe> how do i get a debug of this btc opening error i'm getting?
2612 2013-04-02 18:49:54 Guest73096 is now known as graingert__
2613 2013-04-02 18:50:02 coinners has joined
2614 2013-04-02 18:50:02 <mouseofthesteppe> guest73096: alas, thats the one i'm using, twice failed
2615 2013-04-02 18:50:02 <ErnestoJuarell> The QT build instructions grab 5.1
2616 2013-04-02 18:50:17 <wumpus> you shouldn't use 5.1
2617 2013-04-02 18:50:23 graingert__ is now known as Guest42887
2618 2013-04-02 18:50:26 Guest42887 has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2619 2013-04-02 18:50:34 <lupine> ah, berkleydb
2620 2013-04-02 18:50:44 <ErnestoJuarell> I know, but the instructions grab it so people may not know
2621 2013-04-02 18:50:44 <wumpus> unless you plan on using a self-built bitcoin always and never want to use the prebuilt versions
2622 2013-04-02 18:50:50 <lupine> one of my less-favourite libraries ^^
2623 2013-04-02 18:51:06 <wumpus> we'll get rid of it lupine, it's only used for the wallet anymore
2624 2013-04-02 18:51:33 <mouseofthesteppe> ernestojuarell: what does it mean wallet compatibility broken? You mean you'll break the wallet.dat with the libqtgui library?
2625 2013-04-02 18:51:35 <wumpus> I don't think the qt build instructions mention any bdb version, bdb 5.1 didn't even exist yet when I wrote those...
2626 2013-04-02 18:52:01 <ErnestoJuarell> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/readme-qt.rst
2627 2013-04-02 18:52:15 <ErnestoJuarell> the "for Ubuntu >= 12.04 " part
2628 2013-04-02 18:52:20 <BlueMatt> mouseofthesteppe: why is the ppa not working for you?
2629 2013-04-02 18:52:23 <wumpus> mouseofthesteppe: no, the wallet has nothing to do with qt version, qt is only used for the ui and that's that
2630 2013-04-02 18:52:38 <ErnestoJuarell> wumpus: wrong
2631 2013-04-02 18:52:41 <lupine> mm, switch everything to be the same endianness too while you're at it ^^
2632 2013-04-02 18:53:07 <wumpus> for Ubuntu >= 12.04 (please read the 'Berkely DB version warning' below):  that's pretty clear
2633 2013-04-02 18:53:30 graingert___ has joined
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2635 2013-04-02 18:54:47 graingert___ has quit (Changing host)
2636 2013-04-02 18:54:47 graingert___ has joined
2637 2013-04-02 18:54:51 <mouseofthesteppe>  i can't use 12.04,  its way too slow
2638 2013-04-02 18:54:58 graingert___ is now known as graingert
2639 2013-04-02 18:55:04 i2pRelay has joined
2640 2013-04-02 18:55:06 graingert is now known as graingert_
2641 2013-04-02 18:55:09 graingert_ is now known as graingert__
2642 2013-04-02 18:55:11 graingert__ is now known as graingert
2643 2013-04-02 18:55:38 <graingert> mouseofthesteppe: try 13.04
2644 2013-04-02 18:55:44 <graingert> mouseofthesteppe: aor 12.10
2645 2013-04-02 18:55:54 <graingert> or*
2646 2013-04-02 18:56:02 <BlueMatt> mouseofthesteppe: so...its a problem with your computer and not the ppa?
2647 2013-04-02 18:56:05 <graingert> mouseofthesteppe: use MATE if unity is too slow
2648 2013-04-02 18:56:39 <ErnestoJuarell> He's running a vm
2649 2013-04-02 18:57:18 * BlueMatt never gets bug reports for the ppa, so he always assumes it works perfectly for everyone...
2650 2013-04-02 18:57:24 <BlueMatt> I really wish people would tell me when it breaks
2651 2013-04-02 18:57:41 <mouseofthesteppe> Damn, from the Error opening block database thread in bitcointalk, which is probably the problem I have, someone suggested to move the data directory to another drive and start bitcoin with datadir= new directory, but I don't know what they mean right now
2652 2013-04-02 18:57:48 Bluetegu has joined
2653 2013-04-02 18:58:05 <mouseofthesteppe> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=155140.0
2654 2013-04-02 18:58:13 <graingert> mouseofthesteppe: you could just rm everything other than your wallet
2655 2013-04-02 18:58:19 <graingert> mouseofthesteppe: and download a new block db
2656 2013-04-02 18:58:39 <BlueMatt> ok, so this has nothing to do with the ppa?
2657 2013-04-02 18:58:46 <mouseofthesteppe> rm?
2658 2013-04-02 18:58:53 <ErnestoJuarell> remove
2659 2013-04-02 18:59:15 <graingert> man rm
2660 2013-04-02 18:59:17 <mouseofthesteppe> how do i remove on ubuntu?
2661 2013-04-02 18:59:21 <graingert> mouseofthesteppe: ^
2662 2013-04-02 18:59:24 <graingert> rm
2663 2013-04-02 18:59:32 <graingert> the rm command then the file
2664 2013-04-02 18:59:34 <BlueMatt> can we move this to #bitcoin ?
2665 2013-04-02 18:59:36 <graingert> rm <filename>
2666 2013-04-02 18:59:44 <ErnestoJuarell> just delete from nautilus
2667 2013-04-02 19:00:16 <graingert> mouseofthesteppe: nautilus is like dolphin
2668 2013-04-02 19:00:31 <BlueMatt> mouseofthesteppe: can you /join #bitcoin and move this discussion there?
2669 2013-04-02 19:00:32 <mouseofthesteppe> i use the terminal
2670 2013-04-02 19:00:38 topace_ has joined
2671 2013-04-02 19:00:44 <mouseofthesteppe> ok yes i will
2672 2013-04-02 19:01:03 <mouseofthesteppe> whoevers helping me plz follow me there :)
2673 2013-04-02 19:02:02 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2674 2013-04-02 19:02:33 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2677 2013-04-02 19:06:58 Mobius_ is now known as MobiusL
2678 2013-04-02 19:06:59 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I'm poking at the pull-tester now...
2679 2013-04-02 19:07:11 wallet421 has joined
2680 2013-04-02 19:07:11 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: it just needs the patch updated I think
2681 2013-04-02 19:07:21 <gavinandresen> yes, I'm about to copy over a tweaked patch
2682 2013-04-02 19:07:23 wallet42 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2683 2013-04-02 19:07:26 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/test-scripts
2684 2013-04-02 19:07:41 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I should pull request against that?
2685 2013-04-02 19:07:46 <BlueMatt> if you dont mind
2686 2013-04-02 19:07:53 <gavinandresen> no problem.
2687 2013-04-02 19:07:55 <BlueMatt> its no big deal if you're lazy just copy to /mnt/test-scripts
2688 2013-04-02 19:08:05 <gavinandresen> I'll copy and then pull-request
2689 2013-04-02 19:08:15 <jspilman> ok, dumb question -- I can't find definition of CBitcoinAddress method IsValid... anyone know off hand where that is defined?
2690 2013-04-02 19:08:17 <BlueMatt> also feel free to /etc/init.d/jenkins start when you're done so that jenkins starts testing master again
2691 2013-04-02 19:08:17 <gavinandresen> (pull request might be later tonight, I'm about to turn into a kid chauffeur)
2692 2013-04-02 19:08:27 <BlueMatt> ok, no rush
2693 2013-04-02 19:10:03 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: copied and jenkins start run
2694 2013-04-02 19:10:24 BlueMattBot has joined
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2696 2013-04-02 19:11:08 i2pRelay has joined
2697 2013-04-02 19:11:56 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2698 2013-04-02 19:15:54 <jspilman> ah, in base58.h -- ok, my REAL question was if we are checking the pubkey is valid in the sense that it's a point on the curve.  Looks like we just check it's 20 bytes.  Any reason NOT to add proper checks on the pubkey in IsValid() when nVersion is PUBKEY_ADDRESS?
2699 2013-04-02 19:15:58 wallet421 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2700 2013-04-02 19:16:56 coinners is now known as rayvellest
2701 2013-04-02 19:17:45 <jspilman> or at least a flag to request that additional validation logic.  For example, when using addmultisig where the pubkey is specified by the user as a hex string with no checksum, extra validation here would add safety
2702 2013-04-02 19:17:48 MWNinja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2704 2013-04-02 19:18:44 Grouver has quit (Quit:  HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-)
2705 2013-04-02 19:18:54 sfraise has joined
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2707 2013-04-02 19:19:04 agricocb has joined
2708 2013-04-02 19:19:11 i2pRelay has joined
2709 2013-04-02 19:19:38 <sfraise> hey tokitj you still around?
2710 2013-04-02 19:20:14 nomailing has joined
2711 2013-04-02 19:20:17 <sipa> jspilman: you can't; an address is only a hash of a public key
2712 2013-04-02 19:21:18 <jspilman> createmultisig passes a full public key to CBitcoinAddress
2713 2013-04-02 19:21:37 <jspilman> does it hash it before we call IsValid?  that would be interesting... one sec
2714 2013-04-02 19:21:43 <sipa> it only creates a P2SH address
2715 2013-04-02 19:21:48 <sipa> which is the hash of a script
2716 2013-04-02 19:22:10 <sipa> and even if it wasn't a hash, you can't validate a script without the inputs
2717 2013-04-02 19:22:19 <K1773R> test
2718 2013-04-02 19:22:28 rayvellest has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2719 2013-04-02 19:22:44 <jspilman> I mean validate the keys that the user provides on the CLI into createmultisig before using them to create the redeemScript
2720 2013-04-02 19:22:51 coinners has joined
2721 2013-04-02 19:22:51 daybyter has joined
2722 2013-04-02 19:23:10 <jspilman> if you mess up entering a key, and we didn't validate the 33 byte public key, you'll get a valid P2SH which destroys coins
2723 2013-04-02 19:23:11 Ashaman has joined
2724 2013-04-02 19:23:39 <jspilman> by 'validate the public key' I mean this: http://www.iacr.org/archive/pkc2003/25670211/25670211.pdf
2725 2013-04-02 19:24:14 <jspilman> Title: "Validation of Elliptical Curve Public Keys"
2726 2013-04-02 19:24:22 <skinnkavaj> gavinandresen: DAMN! Everyone should read this: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2013/04/the-future-of-bitcoin.html
2727 2013-04-02 19:24:51 <wumpus> jspilman: I think just no one bothered to add it yet
2728 2013-04-02 19:24:56 [\\\] has joined
2729 2013-04-02 19:25:02 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
2730 2013-04-02 19:25:17 <jspilman> OK, that makes sense.  I was looking for reference code for actually doing the validation, because I wanted to port it to Javascript. :-)
2731 2013-04-02 19:25:57 <jspilman> So I'll try to find a reference, and hopefully do a pull request later this week
2732 2013-04-02 19:26:41 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2733 2013-04-02 19:27:13 i2pRelay has joined
2734 2013-04-02 19:27:22 <jspilman> I wonder what the probability is of a mistyped address being a valid key. perhaps not a calulation that's ever been done before :-)
2735 2013-04-02 19:27:38 <jspilman> sorry, I mean *mistyped pubkey*
2736 2013-04-02 19:28:00 <jspilman> I was up late last night working on Payment Protocol writeup -- https://gist.github.com/jspilman/5287991
2737 2013-04-02 19:28:08 <HM> urgh
2738 2013-04-02 19:28:28 <gmaxwell> jspilman: ignoring the distribution of typos, its one in 2^32.
2739 2013-04-02 19:28:39 <sipa> jspilman: it would be easy to do; have CPubKey import itself into a CKey
2740 2013-04-02 19:28:40 monad7 has joined
2741 2013-04-02 19:28:47 <sipa> jspilman: if that succeeds, it's valid
2742 2013-04-02 19:28:48 <monad7> Hello!
2743 2013-04-02 19:28:57 <sipa> CKey calls openssl to do the importing
2744 2013-04-02 19:29:01 <sipa> which validates
2745 2013-04-02 19:29:06 coinners is now known as rayvellest
2746 2013-04-02 19:29:13 <HM> everything involving i/o and times and dates sucks cocks
2747 2013-04-02 19:29:20 <gmaxwell> jspilman: the question is unanswerable for all possible addresses considering the distribution of typos, because there is a cryptographic hash in the way.
2748 2013-04-02 19:29:20 <monad7> Would it be possible to create a transaction that trades bitcoins between two wallets
2749 2013-04-02 19:29:21 witwit has joined
2750 2013-04-02 19:29:32 <jspilman> IsValid -- EC_KEY_check_key() gold
2751 2013-04-02 19:29:56 <sipa> a CPubKey is not an EC_KEY
2752 2013-04-02 19:30:07 Alex-nod32 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2753 2013-04-02 19:30:08 <monad7> could you create a transaction that is only valid if we each agree to trade bitcoins (I give you a bitcoin, you give me a bitcoin)
2754 2013-04-02 19:30:09 <sipa> but it can be imported into one
2755 2013-04-02 19:30:25 <sipa> monad7: yes
2756 2013-04-02 19:30:40 <monad7> sipa: cool.  is that useful for anything you can think of?
2757 2013-04-02 19:30:48 <sfraise> I haven't dug deep into the api yet, but is it possible to somehow assign someone an id and track a single person's transactions and store them in a central database?
2758 2013-04-02 19:30:49 tyn has joined
2759 2013-04-02 19:31:18 <sfraise> relying on the social p2p network
2760 2013-04-02 19:31:19 <jspilman> @gmaxwell - I'm talking about cases where user must enter the pubkey directly, not as an address
2761 2013-04-02 19:31:27 svara_ has joined
2762 2013-04-02 19:31:29 <jspilman> @gmaxwell - such as addmultisigaddress
2763 2013-04-02 19:31:43 BlackPrapor has joined
2764 2013-04-02 19:31:54 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2765 2013-04-02 19:31:55 <sipa> sfraise: the protocol is designed to make linking between persons and address hard
2766 2013-04-02 19:32:12 pacpac has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2767 2013-04-02 19:32:19 <monad7> also, is there a more advanced wallet that allows you to do some interesting things from a developers point of view?  for instance, I use Bitcoin-qt and I don't see a way to embed a message in a transaction.
2768 2013-04-02 19:32:23 BlackPrapor has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2769 2013-04-02 19:32:57 <sipa> monad7: that's because bitcoin transactions are only supposed to contain whatever data is necessary for the world to validate it
2770 2013-04-02 19:32:58 <bwen> monad7: but you can sign a message with that address' private key tho :p
2771 2013-04-02 19:33:04 svara_ is now known as svara
2772 2013-04-02 19:33:24 <sipa> monad7: anything else is a waste of bandwidth and storage, and can be done much more efficiently by communicating directly between sender and receiver
2773 2013-04-02 19:33:39 Prattler has joined
2774 2013-04-02 19:33:44 <sipa> monad7: the payment protocol (currently in development) is supposed to be a high-level layer above bitcoin transactions that provides this
2775 2013-04-02 19:33:50 <sfraise> I just watched this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD4L7xDNCmA where they talk about identifying a person through the transaction history, thought provoking
2776 2013-04-02 19:33:59 <monad7> sipa: ok cool
2777 2013-04-02 19:34:26 <graingert> monad7: have a look at....https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139581.0
2778 2013-04-02 19:34:36 <graingert> monad7: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139581.0 even
2779 2013-04-02 19:34:43 <sfraise> not so much actually IDENTIFYING a person exactly, but determining if one person is connected to another
2780 2013-04-02 19:34:45 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2781 2013-04-02 19:35:07 <monad7> thanks graingert and sipa.  this has been helpful so far
2782 2013-04-02 19:35:10 <bwen> and even then there is possible deniability
2783 2013-04-02 19:35:17 i2pRelay has joined
2784 2013-04-02 19:35:27 cads has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2785 2013-04-02 19:35:48 <graingert> monad7: k00l
2786 2013-04-02 19:36:55 <monad7> I'm really interested in the concept of contracts.
2787 2013-04-02 19:37:24 <monad7> anyone else?
2788 2013-04-02 19:37:27 xenesis has joined
2789 2013-04-02 19:37:43 <kfreds_> monad7: What do you want to know? :)
2790 2013-04-02 19:37:45 <sfraise> me too monad7, that bitcointalk vid I just posted talks about them
2791 2013-04-02 19:38:28 <kfreds_> monad7: This is a good start, but I guess you've already read it:               efficiently by communicating directly between sender and receiver
2792 2013-04-02 19:38:30 <kfreds_> 21:12 -!- Prattler [~tadas@78.63.237.16] has joined #bitcoin-dev
2793 2013-04-02 19:38:32 <kfreds_> Doh
2794 2013-04-02 19:38:34 <kfreds_> 21:12 < sipa> monad7: the payment protocol (currently in development) is supposed to be a high-level
2795 2013-04-02 19:38:38 <kfreds_>               layer above bitcoin transactions that provides this
2796 2013-04-02 19:38:38 <kfreds_> Sorry about that
2797 2013-04-02 19:38:41 <sfraise> interested in the future possibility of them in a lending/banking situation
2798 2013-04-02 19:38:51 <monad7> well, I see that the transaction is a powerful tool.   I'm wondering if it could be used to trade other electronic agreements
2799 2013-04-02 19:38:55 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
2800 2013-04-02 19:38:55 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #262: FIXED in 25 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/262/
2801 2013-04-02 19:39:19 <monad7> sfraise: exactly
2802 2013-04-02 19:39:34 <kfreds_> Here we go: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts
2803 2013-04-02 19:39:50 <monad7> sfraise: a lending layer ontop of bitcoin...
2804 2013-04-02 19:40:02 <monad7> yeah, I've looked over the Contrats page on the wiki
2805 2013-04-02 19:40:14 Prattler has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
2806 2013-04-02 19:40:37 <kfreds_> The Script article is very good too. Although low-level, it gives you an idea of what you can do.
2807 2013-04-02 19:40:39 <sfraise> I'm debating an attempt at building a bank that lends and distributes interest on deposits, I'm just trying to work out the actual metrics
2808 2013-04-02 19:41:10 <jspilman> ok I'm blind -- rpcwallet.cpp:751 -- if (!vchPubKey.IsValid() || !pubkeys[i].SetPubKey(vchPubKey))
2809 2013-04-02 19:41:15 Xeno-Genesis has joined
2810 2013-04-02 19:41:16 <helo> how do you profitably lend something so volatile?
2811 2013-04-02 19:42:07 <sipa> jspilman: right, i miseed it too
2812 2013-04-02 19:42:12 <sfraise> <helo> take the real world valutation out of the equation and focus on this many bitcoins at this much interest equals what you pay back
2813 2013-04-02 19:42:22 <sipa> jspilman: note that vchPubKey.isValid() doesn't do EC crypto checks, but SetPubKey does
2814 2013-04-02 19:42:32 Silverion has joined
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2817 2013-04-02 19:42:49 <TD> you don't want to be a bank
2818 2013-04-02 19:43:13 <jspilman> what is this comment though...
2819 2013-04-02 19:43:17 i2pRelay has joined
2820 2013-04-02 19:43:18 <TD> jspilman: it's cool that you're looking at extending the protocol. that said, i think some of these use cases are rather low level
2821 2013-04-02 19:43:23 * TD ie still reading
2822 2013-04-02 19:43:25 <TD> *is
2823 2013-04-02 19:43:51 Bluetegu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2824 2013-04-02 19:43:58 <jspilman> TD - I think spent into and out of any multisig is basically unsupported by Payment Protocol at this point, but I am happy to be proven wrong
2825 2013-04-02 19:44:04 <jspilman> *spend
2826 2013-04-02 19:44:13 <TD> well, i'm not sure why a merchant would care what coins you spend
2827 2013-04-02 19:44:16 <TD> multisig is not a feature
2828 2013-04-02 19:44:20 <TD> multisig is a means to other ends
2829 2013-04-02 19:44:51 eralardz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2830 2013-04-02 19:44:57 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2831 2013-04-02 19:45:30 <TD> the 2-of-2 escrow thing is, i think, a bit strange. the payee already has skin in the game … the money they would be paid
2832 2013-04-02 19:45:46 Bluetegu has joined
2833 2013-04-02 19:46:13 <jgarzik> TD: never underestimate the desire to screw over the other person in some way, if they wrong you
2834 2013-04-02 19:46:27 <jgarzik> TD: see psychology and games
2835 2013-04-02 19:46:36 <TD> not compelling to me though - if you're going to build complicated extensions to the payment protocol, "real" dispute mediation would make more sense
2836 2013-04-02 19:46:38 <TD> 2-of-3
2837 2013-04-02 19:47:06 <jspilman> the skin in the game is if the buyer wants a refund
2838 2013-04-02 19:47:07 <TD> that way you aren't relying on fragile configurations of incentives, but basic common sense anyone can understand - find a neutral third party who will judge the dispute
2839 2013-04-02 19:47:18 <jspilman> but of course everything in there applies equally to 2-of-3
2840 2013-04-02 19:47:30 ErnestoJuarell has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2841 2013-04-02 19:48:27 <jspilman> the basic idea is, any website or 3rd party service which is provide wallet-like services, if they have these primatives in the protocol, they can do it in a way that is end-user wallet secured.
2842 2013-04-02 19:49:17 BlackPrapor has quit (2!~kvirc@140.128.broadband15.iol.cz|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2843 2013-04-02 19:49:30 <jspilman> otherwise you're back to using cli and copy/paste with long hex strings and strange quoting rules of JSON
2844 2013-04-02 19:50:45 <TD> well, i'm not totally sure about that. why would the protocol need any notion of inputs? if a merchant indicates support for 2-of-3 mediation in their payment request, you can go ahead and modify the output that was requested according to some algorithm and pay to that. then some completely separate protocol can be used to indicate dispute or acceptance of the transactions
2845 2013-04-02 19:50:47 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2847 2013-04-02 19:51:32 <jspilman> @sipa there's a comment under SetPrivKey which says d2i_ECPrivateKey can return true but fill in a key that fails EC_KEY_check_key, so then EC_KEY_check_key is called explicitly.  Hopefully the same is NOT true for o2i_ECPublicKey ?
2848 2013-04-02 19:52:35 <TD> i mean, i was expecting to see some notion of a dispute message in a protocol that supported 2-of-3 disputes
2849 2013-04-02 19:52:39 <sipa> jspilman: i'll check that later tonight if you remind me
2850 2013-04-02 19:52:54 <TD> but i only have how i imagined it would work. i haven't implemented it nor will i any time soon
2851 2013-04-02 19:53:05 KeTheR has joined
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2853 2013-04-02 19:53:38 <jspilman> well, I was asking a few days ago about the possibility of a URI like 'bitcoin:getpubKey?callback=<url>' and the response was -- look at Payment Protocol
2854 2013-04-02 19:53:55 BlackPrapor has joined
2855 2013-04-02 19:54:18 <TD> yeah
2856 2013-04-02 19:54:39 <TD> i mean, we've been thinking about these topics for a while. but v1 is taking up a lot of time and resources right now
2857 2013-04-02 19:54:41 <jspilman> I think there's a compelling case for a standard way to request a wallet to give a pubKey, signraw, and listunspend
2858 2013-04-02 19:54:48 <TD> given that it's not even implemented in one wallet yet, let alone all of them
2859 2013-04-02 19:55:19 <TD> well, that's the proposition, but to me that seems quite generic and not tied to some killer app.
2860 2013-04-02 19:55:29 <TD> or not obviously tied
2861 2013-04-02 19:55:55 darsie has left ("Once you know what it is you want to be true, instinct is a very useful device for enabling you to know that it is")
2862 2013-04-02 19:56:03 <TD> extensions to the protocol should probably think a particular application, like 2-of-3 mediation, all the way through so the user interfaces people would interact with have obvious translations into protocol messages
2863 2013-04-02 19:56:06 <sipa> jspilman: as soon as you're going to need communication with some other party, i don't see why you wouldn't go for fully-fledged payment protocol
2864 2013-04-02 19:56:22 <TD> rather than trying to find some minimal set of primitives that could do everything
2865 2013-04-02 19:56:32 KeTheR is now known as K3t3r
2866 2013-04-02 19:57:26 <gavinandresen> jspilman: … and as soon as you're communicating with another party, you have to start worrying about either PKI infrastructure or man-in-the-middle attacks
2867 2013-04-02 19:57:32 pacpac has joined
2868 2013-04-02 19:57:37 <jspilman> I think the messaging can mostly be left to a 3rd party, but you can't even start innovating in that domain if you can't help the user perform basic operations in their wallet
2869 2013-04-02 19:58:10 <TD> if users have to even know what signing is, we probably failed
2870 2013-04-02 19:58:28 Grouver has quit (Quit:  HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The professional IRC Client :D)
2871 2013-04-02 19:58:30 <TD> knowledge of public key crypto outside of a small subset of the computer science world is almost zero
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2874 2013-04-02 19:58:54 <TD> people have done usability studies of PGP and so on that showed almost total failure to use the app even after training :(
2875 2013-04-02 19:59:22 <TD> hence my belief that you have to start with a very concrete, useful application, design the UI / UX for it, and then figure out a translation into some new protocol [extension]
2876 2013-04-02 19:59:23 i2pRelay has joined
2877 2013-04-02 19:59:39 <TD> if you work backwards from crypto primitives and then try to expose them in a UI, it won't work. people won't understand it.
2878 2013-04-02 20:00:01 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2879 2013-04-02 20:00:01 <jspilman> I agree completely.
2880 2013-04-02 20:00:24 <TD> gavins doc is good for that as it starts with gui mockups and explores what concepts make sense at the user level. then goes on to propose protocols
2881 2013-04-02 20:00:26 <jspilman> the primatives are just what a 3rd party needs to be able to get from the wallet in order to do its job
2882 2013-04-02 20:00:43 <jspilman> I just saw his comment with a link to a doc
2883 2013-04-02 20:00:43 <redeeman> most people can easily comprehend asymmetric encryption
2884 2013-04-02 20:00:57 <jspilman> I will be reading that shortly
2885 2013-04-02 20:01:05 flug has joined
2886 2013-04-02 20:01:34 <TD> redeeman: with training? maybe. the studies were somewhat ambiguous on that part. some users appeared to understand and then still managed to, eg, email their private keys to the other party
2887 2013-04-02 20:01:35 <jspilman> *can't
2888 2013-04-02 20:01:47 <redeeman> a simple explanation can do it
2889 2013-04-02 20:01:48 <sipa> redeeman: understand the basic principle ("you have a box with two keys: one to open a slot to put something in it, another to open it and takes things out")
2890 2013-04-02 20:02:05 <TD> redeeman: you'd think so, wouldn't you. yet actual scientific studies appear to contradict you.
2891 2013-04-02 20:02:06 <sipa> redeeman: but that isn't the same as understanding what it entails or what weaknesses it could have
2892 2013-04-02 20:02:24 <sipa> and completely different from using it in practice
2893 2013-04-02 20:02:28 <TD> the usability of most security related software is woeful
2894 2013-04-02 20:02:35 <redeeman> sipa, agreed, i only mean the concept that one key can produce stuff the other can unlock
2895 2013-04-02 20:02:50 <sipa> redeeman: also, we're not talking about encryption here at all :)
2896 2013-04-02 20:03:05 <redeeman> but that they dont fully grasp security and encryption, is something in general, no matter the scheme
2897 2013-04-02 20:03:31 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2898 2013-04-02 20:04:55 <jspilman> say you want to provide a 3rd party service which does arbitration using 2-of-3 multisig. Buyers and sellers register with the site, you provide a simple GUI and API for buyers and sellers which uses terms like 'invoice', 'receipt', 'payment terms', and 'security deposit'.
2899 2013-04-02 20:05:17 monad7 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2900 2013-04-02 20:05:17 flug has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2901 2013-04-02 20:05:56 <TD> yeah. i'd imagined it being even simpler, almost. merchants list mediators they accept. you pick one inside your wallet app. payment proceeds as normal except now it has two buttons next to it "Accept" and "Open dispute"
2902 2013-04-02 20:06:08 <TD> opening a dispute takes you to the mediators website
2903 2013-04-02 20:06:21 <TD> accept -> sign and submit a tx for the multsig output
2904 2013-04-02 20:06:27 <jspilman> when it comes time to fund, there are many payment methods, but the obviously preferred is bitcoin. Now *someone* needs to collect all those pubkeys, inputs, outputs, change addresses, to build the rawtransaction that ultimately needs to be signed by the counterparties
2905 2013-04-02 20:06:31 stretchwarren has joined
2906 2013-04-02 20:06:42 <TD> the parties themselves can do it directly
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2908 2013-04-02 20:07:19 <jspilman> see I was thinking something completely different. the wallet isn't the storefront, it isn't the helpdesk, it isn't the arbiter, why should it care?
2909 2013-04-02 20:07:25 i2pRelay has joined
2910 2013-04-02 20:07:47 <jspilman> you can't innovate in the space, if you can't have multiple 3rd parties competing on the user interface
2911 2013-04-02 20:07:48 <TD> sipa: is it possible to retransmit a confirmed transaction? i am thinking no, because it'd be a double spend of itself.
2912 2013-04-02 20:07:59 <Tritonio> Does anyone know what happens if bitcoind is instructed to send a transaction without fee and the transaction needs a fee because of its size?
2913 2013-04-02 20:08:04 <gavinandresen> the wallet needs to know that you've got coins tied up in a transaction with somebody else, and needs to remember who that somebody else is.
2914 2013-04-02 20:08:35 <TD> jspilman: well, the wallet contains a list of payments you've made, and it's the app with the keys that can release payments in case of no dispute. so i figure some wallet ui makes sense. not lots, but a little bit
2915 2013-04-02 20:08:40 <sipa> TD: its inputs are obviously already spent
2916 2013-04-02 20:08:48 <TD> obviously the actual act of filing a dispute, submitting evidence, etc - can all be on the web
2917 2013-04-02 20:08:50 <jspilman> you definiately give the wallet the redeemScript
2918 2013-04-02 20:09:02 <TD> sipa: yeah. that's what i figured. was just wondering if anything weird would happen because the tx is already in the database
2919 2013-04-02 20:09:20 <jspilman> which Payment Protocol doesn't do right now :-)
2920 2013-04-02 20:09:41 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2921 2013-04-02 20:10:01 <jspilman> the wallet can easily see that it is a signing party, and can tell if it can spend the funds unilaterally or if not how many foreign keys need to sign
2922 2013-04-02 20:10:18 <sipa> TD: if it's partially spent, it's still in the UTXO set, so it will just be ignored because of "already have"; if it's entirely spent, it's not in any database anymore, but it would just be considered a spend with either already-spent inputs or unknown inputs
2923 2013-04-02 20:10:30 <TD> ok
2924 2013-04-02 20:10:30 <sipa> TD: so there is a risk of getting it into mempools again
2925 2013-04-02 20:10:42 <TD> mempool? or orphan pool?
2926 2013-04-02 20:10:45 <sipa> TD: eh, in orphan pools!
2927 2013-04-02 20:10:49 <TD> right
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2929 2013-04-02 20:10:55 <TD> hrmm
2930 2013-04-02 20:11:02 <TD> orphans aren't relayed until the parents are seen, right?
2931 2013-04-02 20:11:10 <sipa> indeed
2932 2013-04-02 20:11:32 <TD> jspilman: right, the payment protocol needs extensions for 2-of-3 payments, but probably not very complicated ones. and i'm not sure mandating P2SH makes sense either. it might do, but also might not.
2933 2013-04-02 20:12:48 <TD> sipa: i think bitcoinj might need a log structured wallet sooner rather than later :( people are starting to use it for merchant sites and building up gigantic wallets full of spent transactions, that have to be loaded into memory.
2934 2013-04-02 20:13:23 <jspilman> for a PaymentRequest to send coins into any multisig, if you are using P2SH, you want the option to include the redeemScript
2935 2013-04-02 20:13:30 <TD> sipa: so i'm thinking that having a log with records like {archived spent transaction, wallet snapshot, add key, add transaction, update transaction} along with periodic compactions (delete all before the last snapshot) might make sense
2936 2013-04-02 20:13:33 <sipa> TD: i'm wondering whether it makes sense to separate the "balance maintenance" and "ledger" part of wallets
2937 2013-04-02 20:13:46 <jspilman> for a PaymentRequest to release coins out of a multisig, you need to be able to specify the txid:index
2938 2013-04-02 20:13:52 nomailing has quit (Quit: nomailing)
2939 2013-04-02 20:13:54 <TD> jspilman: P2SH is an optimization, nothing more. i prefer to design protocols without it and then later, it can be added if useful
2940 2013-04-02 20:14:03 nomailing has joined
2941 2013-04-02 20:14:20 <sipa> P2SH does have the advantage of smaller UTXO
2942 2013-04-02 20:14:23 <TD> jspilman: i'm not sure "release a mediated payment" makes sense to model as a new payment
2943 2013-04-02 20:14:32 <jspilman> how do PAY the merchant?
2944 2013-04-02 20:14:41 <jspilman> the payment isn't complete until you release it
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2948 2013-04-02 20:14:57 <TD> jspilman: it might be better to just re-use the original submission URL for the transaction that spends the multisig output, and that tx itself references the txid:index
2949 2013-04-02 20:15:21 <TD> jspilman: when the merchant receives a transaction on the submit URL that references the multisig output, it knows the payment was released. no protobuf messages required
2950 2013-04-02 20:15:28 i2pRelay has joined
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2952 2013-04-02 20:15:47 <jspilman> how does the wallet create that transaction?
2953 2013-04-02 20:15:59 Retik has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2954 2013-04-02 20:16:14 <TD> when it processed the original payment request, it just records in its data structures that it's a mediated transaction. that's how it knows to render {Accept} and {Start dispute} buttons
2955 2013-04-02 20:16:32 <TD> it knows the hash of the multisig transaction that it originally submitted, because, well, it made it
2956 2013-04-02 20:16:37 <jspilman> so then you need another Output Address for scriptPubKey of THAT transaction
2957 2013-04-02 20:16:45 <TD> so creating a partially complete transaction that spends it is easy.
2958 2013-04-02 20:17:22 ConceptPending_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2959 2013-04-02 20:17:25 <TD> consider a backwards compatible extension. the merchant gives a <pubkey> OP_CHECKSIG output in the payment request. old wallets will just do a regular payment.
2960 2013-04-02 20:17:45 <TD> there's also an extension understood by newer wallets that says, "if you want a mediated payment, add <pubkey2> into the output I gave you and change CHECKSIG to CHECKMULTISIG"
2961 2013-04-02 20:17:57 <TD> the transformation is specified by the extension document
2962 2013-04-02 20:18:10 <TD> but it should be trivial
2963 2013-04-02 20:18:22 impulse has joined
2964 2013-04-02 20:18:29 <TD> sorry
2965 2013-04-02 20:18:31 <jspilman> it's so high level, makes so many assumptions about what you want the 'result' to be.  versus an api which was rawtransaction in and rawtransaction out...
2966 2013-04-02 20:18:47 <TD> the extension of course actually says, "add your OWN pubkey into the output I gave you and change CHECKSIG to CHECKMULTISIG"
2967 2013-04-02 20:18:59 <TD> so then the output has the merchants key, your own and a key from a selected mediator.
2968 2013-04-02 20:19:18 <TD> yes, it's high level and focused on the results … it has to be. otherwise you won't build an application that works
2969 2013-04-02 20:19:25 ProfMac has joined
2970 2013-04-02 20:19:29 <TD> you'll just have a generic framework that may or may not add value for any specific application
2971 2013-04-02 20:19:33 <TD> you'll have …… xml! :)
2972 2013-04-02 20:19:53 ConceptPending has joined
2973 2013-04-02 20:19:58 <jspilman> the primatives give you an api which allow you to literally build anything someone can imagine
2974 2013-04-02 20:20:01 <TD> sipa: how do you mean "balance maintenance" vs "ledger"?
2975 2013-04-02 20:20:05 BenderCoin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2976 2013-04-02 20:20:17 <TD> sipa: bitcoinj wallets today are protobufs that encode the stored transactions along with data about how deeply they're buried, what blocks they appeared in, etc.
2977 2013-04-02 20:20:22 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2979 2013-04-02 20:20:40 <TD> sipa: so modifications to it mean recording deltas like "tx 123abc appeared in block def567"
2980 2013-04-02 20:21:08 <TD> jspilman: yeah, but that's not really interesting is it? i mean, the payment protocol itself is designed to meet a specific user need. it's not a generic primitive designed to make anything possible.
2981 2013-04-02 20:21:40 <jspilman> why should an API make all sorts of assumptions about what the PaymentRequest is trying to do, versus just letting the request explictly specify exactly what you want done as a rawtransaction
2982 2013-04-02 20:21:42 <TD> jspilman: gavinandresen worked on VRML back in the days, so he has an allergic reaction to creating specifications for generic systems without any kind of driving app … :)
2983 2013-04-02 20:21:57 BlackPrapor has quit (2!~kvirc@140.128.broadband15.iol.cz|Read error: No route to host)
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2986 2013-04-02 20:22:40 <MC1984> wow amir turns up in a guardian video article
2987 2013-04-02 20:22:46 <TD> APIs designed in a vacuum tend to not be very good, in my experience
2988 2013-04-02 20:22:51 <MC1984> hes living in a squat in london
2989 2013-04-02 20:22:57 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2990 2013-04-02 20:23:10 <TD> you can always tell the difference between an API that was designed with some specific application as a motivator, vs one where the designers didn't really know how it'd be used
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2996 2013-04-02 20:24:26 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, lol yeah, i like their paint job
2997 2013-04-02 20:25:36 bernard75 has quit ()
2998 2013-04-02 20:25:47 Grouver has joined
2999 2013-04-02 20:26:45 <MC1984> i surprised hes still working on bitcoin
3000 2013-04-02 20:26:51 <MC1984> i thought hed left the internet
3001 2013-04-02 20:26:53 <TD> is he?
3002 2013-04-02 20:27:13 <MC1984> maybe he just hangs out in different places than i now
3003 2013-04-02 20:27:21 <MC1984> http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/video/2013/mar/22/bitcoin-currency-video
3004 2013-04-02 20:28:08 safra has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3005 2013-04-02 20:28:27 RazielZ has joined
3006 2013-04-02 20:28:30 <MC1984> i hope hes feeling better now
3007 2013-04-02 20:29:33 abadr has joined
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3009 2013-04-02 20:29:47 Ashaman has joined
3010 2013-04-02 20:29:56 <MC1984> suit jacket on over a hoodie
3011 2013-04-02 20:30:02 <MC1984> thats just how he rolls
3012 2013-04-02 20:30:16 <flyingkiwiguy> intense guy
3013 2013-04-02 20:30:27 <sipa> TD: the first part would only need to maintain a by-wallet-keys-spendable UTXO set
3014 2013-04-02 20:30:30 <abadr> is transaction-order within a block, i.e. has returned by `getblock`, consistent across clients?
3015 2013-04-02 20:30:36 <sipa> TD: it doesn't care about history
3016 2013-04-02 20:30:39 <jspilman> @TD the bitcoin 'api' so to speak is trivially simple.  pubkeys, inputs, and signrawtransaction.  I think there's a philosophical question about how much business logic needs to live inside the "wallet"
3017 2013-04-02 20:30:39 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, he just avoids places where people harass him endlessly
3018 2013-04-02 20:30:40 <phantomcircuit> :)
3019 2013-04-02 20:31:01 <MC1984> i suppose that makes sense
3020 2013-04-02 20:31:01 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3021 2013-04-02 20:31:04 <phantomcircuit> abadr, it needs to be to work so i would hope so
3022 2013-04-02 20:31:20 <MC1984> well im glad to know hes ok
3023 2013-04-02 20:31:23 <TD> jspilman: well, down at the level of the wire protocol, yes. wallets need to contain as much business logic as needed to achieve the features users want
3024 2013-04-02 20:31:28 <sipa> abadr: it is certainly well-defined; how clients output it is something else
3025 2013-04-02 20:31:28 <jspilman> given that API, the conceptual bounds of the "wallet" change -- is it no longer limited to Bitcoin-QT GUI
3026 2013-04-02 20:31:30 <Tritonio> Does anyone know what happens if bitcoind is instructed to send an oversized transaction but I've set up my fee as zero?
3027 2013-04-02 20:31:33 i2pRelay has joined
3028 2013-04-02 20:31:47 <abadr> thanks again sipa
3029 2013-04-02 20:31:53 <TD> Tritonio: the transaction will be ignored by the receiving nodes
3030 2013-04-02 20:32:03 <jspilman> you can extend the business logic of the wallet however you want, and make that GUI look however you want
3031 2013-04-02 20:32:08 <phantomcircuit> Tritonio, if it's bitcoind it fails, if it's bitcoin-qt it pops up a warning to ask if you want to do it anyways
3032 2013-04-02 20:32:18 <jspilman> in a completely secure fashion
3033 2013-04-02 20:32:23 <phantomcircuit> TD, no the client basically wont send a transaction without enough fees
3034 2013-04-02 20:32:29 <Tritonio> phantomcircuit, it fails without suggesting what the correct fee is?
3035 2013-04-02 20:32:30 <phantomcircuit> you have to hack at it to get it to do that
3036 2013-04-02 20:32:45 <TD> sipa: yes, but wallet apps do care about history, as they need to display it to users. my goal is to keep the working set that has to be loaded into RAM as small as possible. the alternative, would be to use some database/sql backed wallet on the assumption that this way you can use it without hitting memory limits - but it's not clear to me that will work well
3037 2013-04-02 20:32:48 mercerist has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3038 2013-04-02 20:32:54 <phantomcircuit> Tritonio, it suggests the correct fee but it's in a string that i wouldn't count on staying constant
3039 2013-04-02 20:33:00 <TD> phantomcircuit: Tritonio is asking what happens if he overrides that, iiuc
3040 2013-04-02 20:33:07 <sipa> TD: yes, sure, of course users care, so that's why you separately maintain a ledger
3041 2013-04-02 20:33:20 <pigeons> even if paytxfee is 0 the default bitcoind will still send a fee if needed
3042 2013-04-02 20:33:22 <sipa> TD: but that's just an append-only log really; maybe it doesn't even need the actual transactions
3043 2013-04-02 20:33:23 <phantomcircuit> TD, i think he's asking about the terribly named paytxfee
3044 2013-04-02 20:33:28 <Tritonio> TD, no I am asking what happens when one fine day my site tries to send an oversized tx.
3045 2013-04-02 20:33:51 <phantomcircuit> Tritonio, you'll end up paying the fee probably
3046 2013-04-02 20:33:59 <TD> Tritonio: if "your site" is running custom code, then your tx will be ignored, as i said.
3047 2013-04-02 20:34:18 <TD> Tritonio: we don't really understand your setup though
3048 2013-04-02 20:34:24 <jspilman> from Peter's blog post on Mar 8 -- "I think there’s a strong case to be made for application-specific Bitcoin clients. One the Foundation (and CoinLab) could use would be something designed to let finance people interact with their balances like a historical ledger; aggregating up accounts for Income Statements and Balance Sheets, and separating them out for assessing who got paid when."
3049 2013-04-02 20:34:30 <Tritonio> TD, nothing custom. I just setup bitcoind with the default configuration.
3050 2013-04-02 20:34:42 <TD> Tritonio: ok. so why do you think your site will send over-sized transactions?
3051 2013-04-02 20:34:58 <jspilman> if you have the API, you can build that as a web service and the underlying wallet software is irrelevant
3052 2013-04-02 20:35:03 <TD> sipa: yeah
3053 2013-04-02 20:35:32 <TD> sipa: i was thinking maybe the entire wallet could be represented as a log of deltas + snapshots. not just the history. being able to have wallets be single files is quite nice.
3054 2013-04-02 20:35:36 <TD> (for ease of backups, etc)
3055 2013-04-02 20:35:44 <jspilman> that's the beauty of the blockchain plus type-2 keys
3056 2013-04-02 20:35:46 <sipa> yes, i'm in favor of single-file wallets
3057 2013-04-02 20:35:53 <Tritonio> td phantomcircuit what I need to know beforehand is, when it has to send an oversized tx which one of the following will happen: a. it will fail with some error message. b. It will take the initiative and include the fee on its own and then send the tx. c. it will send the tx without a fee causing me trouble with unpend coins. I was hopping for b.
3058 2013-04-02 20:36:01 <MC1984> phantomcircuit if you talk to him any time tell him i said hi
3059 2013-04-02 20:36:21 <Tritonio> TD, the site WILL be receiving microtransactions. At some point it will have to pay a lot to one person, combining many of those.
3060 2013-04-02 20:36:56 <TD> it will always include the correct fee for the required size
3061 2013-04-02 20:37:07 <phantomcircuit> jspilman, building an accounting system on top of bitcoind's api which provides an historical ledger is trivial if you're not an incompetent hack
3062 2013-04-02 20:37:21 <Tritonio> td, perfect. :-)
3063 2013-04-02 20:37:21 <phantomcircuit> jspilman, i'll leave it to you to figure out who i think is an incompetent hack here
3064 2013-04-02 20:37:28 <Tritonio> thanks td and phantomcircuit.
3065 2013-04-02 20:37:56 <jspilman> phantomcircuit - you may want to read https://gist.github.com/jspilman/5287991 - I'm talking about a webapp which *never sees a private key*
3066 2013-04-02 20:38:21 <jspilman> absolutely you can generate all the commands that the user needs to type into their instance of bitcoind
3067 2013-04-02 20:38:28 <jspilman> is that a usable end-product?
3068 2013-04-02 20:39:03 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3069 2013-04-02 20:39:14 <phantomcircuit> jspilman, give me the short version i dont have time to read all of that (btw you should have a simple 1 paragraph explanation of what the paper is about)
3070 2013-04-02 20:39:21 <TD> jspilman: i think the best way to resolve this discussion is  for you to implement it, and then implement some useful app on top, like mediated transactions, and we can look at how the protocol seems
3071 2013-04-02 20:39:23 <jspilman> by the way -- make sure your product supports the different quoting rules of bitcoind depending on the user's OS!
3072 2013-04-02 20:39:37 i2pRelay has joined
3073 2013-04-02 20:39:44 <jspilman> TD - I was just typing exactly that
3074 2013-04-02 20:40:17 <TD> i suspect it will be a bit odd and open to strange protocol abuses, but it's just a hunch. i like tight protocols that are directly mappable to user experiences, but am open to being proven wrong here
3075 2013-04-02 20:40:23 cads has joined
3076 2013-04-02 20:40:40 <jspilman> A simple wallet which is little more than a keystore plus signing capabilities with the API I am thinking of, and then start writing some sample apps to show what I think the power of such a system would be
3077 2013-04-02 20:40:53 <jspilman> I'll try to have it ready before the conference, and maybe I can give a lightning talk
3078 2013-04-02 20:41:30 <TD> cool
3079 2013-04-02 20:41:30 <jspilman> @phantomcircuit - agree on the TL;DR -- I will add something tonight
3080 2013-04-02 20:41:43 <phantomcircuit> jspilman, so basically you want to expose the 3 basic operations to users in a way that they can easily understand
3081 2013-04-02 20:42:27 quaz0r has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3082 2013-04-02 20:42:28 <jspilman> I want the 3 basic operations as a means to build arbitrary user interfaces outside of the wallet, which are secured by keys that never leave the end user's wallet
3083 2013-04-02 20:42:40 <phantomcircuit> also you should know that protobuf, while very cool, is poorly suited to a protocol like this
3084 2013-04-02 20:42:54 nova90 has joined
3085 2013-04-02 20:43:22 <HM> phantomcircuit: like what?
3086 2013-04-02 20:43:27 <TD> photo of satoshi! http://www.sfgate.com/technology/businessinsider/article/Still-Nobody-Knows-Who-Created-Bitcoin-But-4403764.php
3087 2013-04-02 20:43:35 <TD> just kidding. stock photo of mysterious man
3088 2013-04-02 20:43:37 bitcoin989 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3089 2013-04-02 20:43:39 <TD> smoking, no less
3090 2013-04-02 20:43:49 <TD> Recap: Introduced in 2009, Bitcoin is really just a series of decrypted code that's been cracked by super-industrial computers (the "brute force" required to process the code can take weeks to achieve).
3091 2013-04-02 20:43:50 <TD> Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/technology/businessinsider/article/Still-Nobody-Knows-Who-Created-Bitcoin-But-4403764.php#ixzz2PL6oBz1W
3092 2013-04-02 20:43:54 <TD> oh, stupid copy/paste tags
3093 2013-04-02 20:43:56 <phantomcircuit> HM, protobuf has a very very strong tendency to interpret malformed messages instead of failing hard
3094 2013-04-02 20:44:27 <sfraise> Are there any services out there now that allow you to deposit bitcoins where they actually store the keys on a local machine until you withdraw them? It seems like that would be a much more secure solution than an ewallet
3095 2013-04-02 20:44:29 <phantomcircuit> HM, so for example you could accidentally send an Output message where there should be a PaymentDetails message and still have a seemingly valid PaymentDetails message
3096 2013-04-02 20:44:51 HiWEB has quit (Quit: Happy Happy Sleepy Time...)
3097 2013-04-02 20:45:05 <abadr> sfraise: what would it mean to deposit bitcoins on such a service?
3098 2013-04-02 20:45:17 <_g> anyone know how bitcoincharts (etc) get exchange information from btc-e?
3099 2013-04-02 20:45:35 tyn has joined
3100 2013-04-02 20:45:38 <phantomcircuit> _g, i would assume they're pulling from the orderbook feed on the front page
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3102 2013-04-02 20:46:01 <HM> phantomcircuit: right, but that's because it's classless
3103 2013-04-02 20:46:11 chylee has joined
3104 2013-04-02 20:46:16 <HM> e.g. 2 messages with the same field numbers and field types serialize to the same string
3105 2013-04-02 20:46:41 <phantomcircuit> HM, right but more so because the last fields tend to be optional
3106 2013-04-02 20:46:48 <MC1984> sathoshi smoks skinny cigars?
3107 2013-04-02 20:46:51 <MC1984> man has no class
3108 2013-04-02 20:47:04 <HM> phantomcircuit: sure but i don't know how that makes it fail
3109 2013-04-02 20:47:05 p8m has joined
3110 2013-04-02 20:47:05 <phantomcircuit> it's less likely that messages with fields that dont match will cause a problem
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3113 2013-04-02 20:47:43 <jspilman> I have to run out for an hour.  thanks TD, phantom, this has been extremely helpful
3114 2013-04-02 20:47:44 xenesis has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3115 2013-04-02 20:47:51 <TD> cool
3116 2013-04-02 20:48:11 xenesis has joined
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3118 2013-04-02 20:48:27 <phantomcircuit> jspilman, he main problem here is i cant imagine regular users actually doing this
3119 2013-04-02 20:48:39 <phantomcircuit> and exposing such an api to remote access would of course be a terrible idea
3120 2013-04-02 20:48:44 <HM> phantomcircuit: also bools and numeric types are serialized the same and not differentiated inside the tagging system
3121 2013-04-02 20:48:55 <phantomcircuit> HM, yeah
3122 2013-04-02 20:48:59 <phantomcircuit> so needless to say
3123 2013-04-02 20:49:20 <phantomcircuit> you need to be absolutely certain that your structure is what you think it is
3124 2013-04-02 20:49:24 Namworld has joined
3125 2013-04-02 20:49:26 <phantomcircuit> and that you have the right definition file
3126 2013-04-02 20:49:31 <HM> sure
3127 2013-04-02 20:49:49 <HM> there are other big reasons to prefer other formats over protobufs as well
3128 2013-04-02 20:49:57 <HM> Google basically code dump it and make infrequent releases
3129 2013-04-02 20:50:04 <sfraise> abdr: it seems like it would be less likely to be hacked if the keys were stored on a separate local machine
3130 2013-04-02 20:50:15 <TD> there are infrequent releases because it changes infrequently
3131 2013-04-02 20:50:18 <HM> the IDL is not separate to the codec either
3132 2013-04-02 20:50:33 Scrat has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3133 2013-04-02 20:50:33 <HM> the types should be generic not "sfixed32"
3134 2013-04-02 20:50:56 <TD> how do you mean generic? you can specify fields to be ints
3135 2013-04-02 20:51:02 sint has joined
3136 2013-04-02 20:51:30 <phantomcircuit> either way
3137 2013-04-02 20:51:47 <phantomcircuit> producing a sane ledger of transactions from the bitcoin api is not rock science
3138 2013-04-02 20:51:56 yesminister has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3139 2013-04-02 20:52:16 <phantomcircuit> it requires nothing more than a reasonable understanding of accounting best practices and database skills
3140 2013-04-02 20:52:27 <phantomcircuit> ok so admittedly those are not exactly commonly overlapping sets
3141 2013-04-02 20:52:47 <HM> TD: i just think apache Thrift is cleaner
3142 2013-04-02 20:53:02 <TD> fair enough
3143 2013-04-02 20:53:35 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3144 2013-04-02 20:53:39 meLon_ has joined
3145 2013-04-02 20:53:40 <phantomcircuit> thrift is an entire rpc system though right?
3146 2013-04-02 20:53:58 sint has left ("Leaving")
3147 2013-04-02 20:54:10 <HM> Thrift has a fully working RPC framework for one thing, as well as separation between "processors", transports (tcp, http, etc) and protocols (binary fixed, 'dense' and json)
3148 2013-04-02 20:54:25 <HM> it also has maps and sets
3149 2013-04-02 20:54:34 <HM> and the protocol distinguishes between bools and ints
3150 2013-04-02 20:54:50 <HM> (well denseprotocol does, and i think the binary one)
3151 2013-04-02 20:54:58 <HM> also more languages supported
3152 2013-04-02 20:55:02 <HM> quicker development
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3155 2013-04-02 20:55:18 <phantomcircuit> yeah what i really want is just a high performance *safe* messaging scheme
3156 2013-04-02 20:55:22 meLon_ has joined
3157 2013-04-02 20:55:31 <phantomcircuit> unfortunately the options for that are... limited
3158 2013-04-02 20:55:36 <HM> sure
3159 2013-04-02 20:55:39 i2pRelay has joined
3160 2013-04-02 20:55:47 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
3161 2013-04-02 20:55:57 <HM> Can I interest you in XML? :P
3162 2013-04-02 20:55:58 <TD> yeah, thrift is a lot more feature heavy
3163 2013-04-02 20:55:58 quaz0r has joined
3164 2013-04-02 20:56:11 <phantomcircuit> HM, >|
3165 2013-04-02 20:56:14 <phantomcircuit> >:|
3166 2013-04-02 20:56:16 hkjdskjf has joined
3167 2013-04-02 20:56:28 <HM> TD: if you don't use services (RPC) the code generator doesn't output any RPC code. so it can be used just like protocol buffers
3168 2013-04-02 20:56:29 <sfraise> how to do a notice message on this thing?
3169 2013-04-02 20:56:55 meLon_ is now known as meLon
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3172 2013-04-02 20:57:03 <ProfMac> I want to send payments from several addresses, to several addresses, in 1 transaction.  I want to choose the exact amount each address sends or receives.  Can bitcoin-qt do this, and can any other wallet manager do this?
3173 2013-04-02 20:57:42 Phraust has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3174 2013-04-02 20:57:46 <phantomcircuit> ProfMac, you can do that from the debug console using the raw transactions api calls
3175 2013-04-02 20:58:00 <HM> TD: Apache have another project called Avro that's quite promising
3176 2013-04-02 20:58:18 Optimus-Prime has quit (Quit: Optimus-Prime)
3177 2013-04-02 20:59:16 <TD> its description does not inspire confidence, based on a quick read.
3178 2013-04-02 20:59:42 <TD> it's basically "a bit like protobufs, except we always include the schema with messages"
3179 2013-04-02 20:59:48 <TD> "this is better for dynamic languages"
3180 2013-04-02 21:00:02 <HM> yup
3181 2013-04-02 21:00:02 <TD> well, you can do that with protobufs too. the schema can itself be represented using protocol buffers, allowing for reflection like that
3182 2013-04-02 21:00:05 toffoo has joined
3183 2013-04-02 21:00:09 <HM> yup
3184 2013-04-02 21:00:11 <TD> in practice nobody ever seems to actually need it
3185 2013-04-02 21:00:14 <ProfMac> phantomcircuit,  I want to write a procedure for other people to follow.  Where do I go to do my background reading on the API calls.
3186 2013-04-02 21:00:19 <TD> so, that doesn't seem like a great feature to differentiate on
3187 2013-04-02 21:00:22 <HM> that's one thing thrift doesn't have, descriptors and reflection
3188 2013-04-02 21:00:36 <TD> and instead of using a real IDL they define schemas in json
3189 2013-04-02 21:00:40 <TD> yeah - not feeling it
3190 2013-04-02 21:00:45 <phantomcircuit> ProfMac, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Raw_Transactions
3191 2013-04-02 21:01:22 <HM> lol yeah
3192 2013-04-02 21:01:43 <HM> like JSON-Schema ... encoding JSON schemas in json
3193 2013-04-02 21:01:46 <ProfMac> phantomcircuit, thanks a lot.  I have the debug console up, and the stuff looks familiar from using bitcoind at the command line...
3194 2013-04-02 21:01:50 <phantomcircuit> it's always a sort of catch 22
3195 2013-04-02 21:02:01 <phantomcircuit> high performance, self describing, pick one
3196 2013-04-02 21:02:09 Xeno-Genesis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3197 2013-04-02 21:02:18 <phantomcircuit> ProfMac, debug console is the cli commands
3198 2013-04-02 21:02:24 <phantomcircuit> it's probably not user friendly
3199 2013-04-02 21:02:33 <phantomcircuit> although im an abnormal user so who knows
3200 2013-04-02 21:02:40 <HM> I've settled on Thrift for my projects
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3203 2013-04-02 21:03:56 wizkid057 has quit (Quit: brb)
3204 2013-04-02 21:04:27 <phantomcircuit> HM, i'll give it a try
3205 2013-04-02 21:05:21 <HM> I'm not sure what the generated code is like for NodeJS or Go or anything
3206 2013-04-02 21:05:40 Luke-Jr has quit (Excess Flood)
3207 2013-04-02 21:05:45 <phantomcircuit> i only really care about python and c++
3208 2013-04-02 21:05:56 <phantomcircuit> i *guess* java also
3209 2013-04-02 21:06:00 <HM> lol
3210 2013-04-02 21:06:01 Luke-Jr has joined
3211 2013-04-02 21:06:03 <phantomcircuit> but as an apache project im sure that's fine
3212 2013-04-02 21:06:19 wizkid057 has joined
3213 2013-04-02 21:06:30 sfraise has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3214 2013-04-02 21:06:34 <phantomcircuit> i should really add order cancellation to my new system
3215 2013-04-02 21:06:42 <phantomcircuit> before i forget about it and make it hard to implement
3216 2013-04-02 21:06:42 safra has joined
3217 2013-04-02 21:06:42 <phantomcircuit> lol
3218 2013-04-02 21:07:26  has joined
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3220 2013-04-02 21:08:30 <ProfMac> phantomcircuit,  I am setting up a multi-winner auction, where the payment address is the bidder, and the addresses with payments in the top 10 are the winners..  Someone wants to make several bids, and use bitcoin-QT, and is unhappy with my rule of per address instead of per transaction.
3221 2013-04-02 21:09:17 Mr_G has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3222 2013-04-02 21:09:38 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
3223 2013-04-02 21:09:57 <phantomcircuit> ProfMac, i assume you're not in the us because that would be totally illegal in the us
3224 2013-04-02 21:10:44 <phantomcircuit> anyways they have a good point
3225 2013-04-02 21:11:02 <phantomcircuit> and im sure anybody who can point that out as a problem can figure out the rawtransactions api
3226 2013-04-02 21:11:10 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3227 2013-04-02 21:11:43 i2pRelay has joined
3228 2013-04-02 21:12:17 <ProfMac> phantomcircuit, I am in the US, and this surprises me.  Please tell me more.
3229 2013-04-02 21:12:20 quaz0r has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3230 2013-04-02 21:12:57 <phantomcircuit> ProfMac, gambling is a heavily regulated activity in nearly every state
3231 2013-04-02 21:13:09 <phantomcircuit> interstate gambling even more so
3232 2013-04-02 21:13:24 <phantomcircuit> of course i am not a lawyer
3233 2013-04-02 21:13:30 <phantomcircuit> but you probably want to talk with one
3234 2013-04-02 21:13:50 <phantomcircuit> especially since processing payments for the purpose of gambling is illegal
3235 2013-04-02 21:14:50 <> _STIMPY_|!~doddy@5ac82b64.bb.sky.com|Are complex scripts disabled in the QT client?
3236 2013-04-02 21:14:57 <ProfMac> phantomcircuit, Oh.  I'm good.  I'm not gambling.  I am selling 10 duplicates of a good or service.  eBay is an online auction, I don't know of any regulations (yet) that cover them.
3237 2013-04-02 21:15:14 Diablo-D3 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
3238 2013-04-02 21:15:35 <phantomcircuit> ProfMac, i have no idea of the specifics here but common law tends to be very... flexible?
3239 2013-04-02 21:15:41 lodse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3240 2013-04-02 21:15:41 <phantomcircuit> shrug
3241 2013-04-02 21:15:44 <phantomcircuit> worth a warning
3242 2013-04-02 21:16:03 <phantomcircuit> im sure you're a big boy and can make your own decisions
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3250 2013-04-02 21:19:41 <ProfMac> phantomcircuit, I appreciate the warning.  I'm one of those people who don't mix PP and BTC.  My venture  is just like listing something on eBay.  High bid(s) take(s) it, the others don't.  No random numbers are involved.
3251 2013-04-02 21:19:42 i2pRelay has joined
3252 2013-04-02 21:20:12 <ProfMac> Does bitcoin-qt give a way to choose which account spends the coins from the ordinary user interface?
3253 2013-04-02 21:20:15 pacpac has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3254 2013-04-02 21:20:44 <gmaxwell> ProfMac: the account stuff is not really (at all?) exposed in the GUI.
3255 2013-04-02 21:21:31 <sipa> not at all
3256 2013-04-02 21:21:47 <sipa> except for the fact that labels and accounts coincide
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3258 2013-04-02 21:24:50 brson has joined
3259 2013-04-02 21:25:00 quaz0r has joined
3260 2013-04-02 21:25:13 <rhett> so, people must be making big money running asics, now, right?
3261 2013-04-02 21:25:34 qwertyoruiop is now known as zz_qwertyoruiop
3262 2013-04-02 21:25:37 <rhett> last I checked they were all sold out
3263 2013-04-02 21:25:41 <rhett> are any available?
3264 2013-04-02 21:25:44 leakybuckit has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3265 2013-04-02 21:26:09 <ProfMac> Oh pffft.  I posted https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=159214.msg1706878#msg1706878 and assumed that anyone could pay from 1 selected address.  I do it on blockchain.info.  Now I have a mess to clean up.
3266 2013-04-02 21:26:20 <denisx> rhett: ask in #bitcoin-mining
3267 2013-04-02 21:27:01 <rhett> sorry, thanks denisx
3268 2013-04-02 21:27:04 <sipa> ProfMac: you shouldn't be reusing addresses in the first place
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3277 2013-04-02 21:28:28 <sfraise> is there a common api for building web apps for bitcoin somewhere?
3278 2013-04-02 21:29:08 <ProfMac> sipa, I created a custom address to receive payments for this 1 venture.  I have a return policy to the same address that paid.  I thought that was in the customary and proper bitcoin practices.
3279 2013-04-02 21:29:21 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3280 2013-04-02 21:29:32 Xeno-Genesis has joined
3281 2013-04-02 21:29:39 Bohren has joined
3282 2013-04-02 21:29:44 <sipa> ProfMac: i know, many people seem to think that
3283 2013-04-02 21:29:58 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3284 2013-04-02 21:30:14 <sfraise> nm i found what i was looking for in the wiki
3285 2013-04-02 21:30:33 <sipa> ProfMac: but bitcoin privacy model is based on unlinkability of addresses, and address reuse (even not by yourself) breaks that easily
3286 2013-04-02 21:31:01 djworth has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3287 2013-04-02 21:31:16 <sipa> ProfMac: well, other factors too, but in general: addresses do not have a 'from' address (don't assume you can send something back to the address one of the input coins was assigned to), and don't reuse addresses
3288 2013-04-02 21:31:37 <denisx> hmm, I would like to see block v3 where the nonce is 64bit ;)
3289 2013-04-02 21:31:50 <sipa> if you need some way to identify a user, give him a unique address to pay to; if you need a refund address, ask for one
3290 2013-04-02 21:32:26 stalled has joined
3291 2013-04-02 21:33:06 <Luke-Jr> denisx: Gavin had suggested that a while back (though more like 48 bit), but it ended up being shot down ☹
3292 2013-04-02 21:33:42 abadr has joined
3293 2013-04-02 21:33:51 <denisx> how fast is one asic chip?
3294 2013-04-02 21:34:21 <Ry4an> depends how hard you can throw
3295 2013-04-02 21:34:29 <Luke-Jr> denisx: my Little Single is doing 24.5 Gh/s now; it has 4 chips I think
3296 2013-04-02 21:34:31 <bwen> xD
3297 2013-04-02 21:34:34 <Luke-Jr> lol
3298 2013-04-02 21:35:16 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3299 2013-04-02 21:35:20 <denisx> so the nonce is done in 0,66 seconds?
3300 2013-04-02 21:35:26 <denisx> on one chip
3301 2013-04-02 21:35:43 hkjdskjf has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3302 2013-04-02 21:35:48 i2pRelay has joined
3303 2013-04-02 21:35:52 <Luke-Jr> denisx: quicker usually
3304 2013-04-02 21:36:44 <Luke-Jr> 144ms most of the time
3305 2013-04-02 21:37:00 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3306 2013-04-02 21:37:05 <Luke-Jr> but every 7th one is 276ms
3307 2013-04-02 21:37:12 <Luke-Jr> which takes out 5 Gh/s or so
3308 2013-04-02 21:37:22 <lupine> ouch
3309 2013-04-02 21:38:14 normanrichards has quit ()
3310 2013-04-02 21:38:24 <ProfMac> sipa, I know the privacy aspect is very important to some people.  However, I also think that highly transparent auditing is important to others, and ultimately will overshadow the importance of anonymity.  In the follow-up of the Avalon Batch #2 sales, it seemed to be advantageous for people to have paid from 1 single address to the 1 single collection address.
3311 2013-04-02 21:39:35 <sipa> ProfMac: auditing is perfectly possible with separate addresses; it doesn't need the whole world to be able to link users to together
3312 2013-04-02 21:40:05 Liquid3xB has joined
3313 2013-04-02 21:40:14 <Liquid3xB> Hello Dev people
3314 2013-04-02 21:40:53 <Liquid3xB> Quick questionm what time does blockchain servers use? I sent a transaction @ 4 local time and its been an hour and still have 0 confirmations, sent with a fee as well
3315 2013-04-02 21:41:01 <denisx> Luke-Jr: so the noncerange is divided for every chip?
3316 2013-04-02 21:41:28 <sipa> ProfMac: i do understand that right now, using the per-address-balance idea is often the easiest way of working, but i do hope that will change once the payment protocol becomes in use for such services, that will change
3317 2013-04-02 21:41:31 <Liquid3xB> The tranaction on the server says Fee: 0.0005 BTC - Size: 944 bytes) 2013-04-02 19:23:53
3318 2013-04-02 21:41:45 <sipa> Liquid3xB: you mean blockchain.info ?
3319 2013-04-02 21:41:55 <Liquid3xB> sipa, yeah
3320 2013-04-02 21:41:55 <Luke-Jr> denisx: yes
3321 2013-04-02 21:42:12 qwebirc313988 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3322 2013-04-02 21:42:28 <CodeShark> the timezone of blockchain.info's servers has absolutely nothing to do with confirmation time
3323 2013-04-02 21:42:35 <Liquid3xB> Sorry I dont mean to ask in here but the other channels are going crazy and they are not answering me, and I sent some $$ and am just wondering where it is ive never had t o wait over an hour with fees before
3324 2013-04-02 21:42:54 <Liquid3xB> CodeShark, Where did they get 19:23 from?
3325 2013-04-02 21:42:55 yeahoffline has joined
3326 2013-04-02 21:43:18 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3327 2013-04-02 21:43:21 peawormsworth has joined
3328 2013-04-02 21:43:23 <CodeShark> UTC?
3329 2013-04-02 21:43:24 <sipa> Liquid3xB: they use UTC, i think
3330 2013-04-02 21:43:30 Saberu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3331 2013-04-02 21:43:35 <sipa> but what CodeShark says: that has nothing to do with confirmation time
3332 2013-04-02 21:43:47 i2pRelay has joined
3333 2013-04-02 21:43:51 Saberu has joined
3334 2013-04-02 21:43:52 <sipa> it's not 21:21 UTC
3335 2013-04-02 21:43:54 <Liquid3xB> sipa, Gotcha, is an hour + wait normal with fees? This is new to me
3336 2013-04-02 21:43:54 <sipa> *now
3337 2013-04-02 21:44:00 <sipa> Liquid3xB: it happens
3338 2013-04-02 21:44:16 <Liquid3xB> Okay as long as somebody who knows says its normal
3339 2013-04-02 21:44:29 <Liquid3xB> I double and triple checked the address and its correct so ill wait
3340 2013-04-02 21:44:30 <Liquid3xB> :)
3341 2013-04-02 21:44:35 <CodeShark> Liquid3xB - blocks themselves use unix time
3342 2013-04-02 21:44:41 andkore has joined
3343 2013-04-02 21:44:50 <Liquid3xB> CodeShark, Unix has its own time
3344 2013-04-02 21:45:03 <CodeShark> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_time
3345 2013-04-02 21:45:09 <sipa> unix time = seconds since 1 jan 1970 0:00 UTC
3346 2013-04-02 21:45:38 <CodeShark> the the timestamp of blocks is only used as a sliding window of sorts
3347 2013-04-02 21:45:39 <sipa> that's the only time-related unit in the bitcoin protocol itself
3348 2013-04-02 21:45:39 <Liquid3xB> Very interesting
3349 2013-04-02 21:45:54 <Liquid3xB> Learn somethign new everyday
3350 2013-04-02 21:46:29 <CodeShark> the timestamp itself is not trusted by peers
3351 2013-04-02 21:46:40 <CodeShark> it's easy to fake
3352 2013-04-02 21:46:44 <andkore> this is a little offtopic, but #bitcoin seems kind of flooded. any recommendations on which language to use to interact with bitcoin (in web context)
3353 2013-04-02 21:47:05 <denisx> Liquid3xB: use date -r 1234567890 in a shell
3354 2013-04-02 21:47:09 <sipa> andkore: the one you're most familiar with
3355 2013-04-02 21:47:12 <Liquid3xB> andkore, I came in here as well becasue of how much was going on in bitcoin
3356 2013-04-02 21:47:31 <Tykling> andkore: python with bitcoinrpc is alright
3357 2013-04-02 21:47:34 <Liquid3xB> denisx, Thanks
3358 2013-04-02 21:47:56 <andkore> I'm most familiar with Java. I guess I was asking which of the APIs was most mature
3359 2013-04-02 21:48:17 <sipa> there is only one API (for the reference client anyway), it's JSON-RPC and language independent
3360 2013-04-02 21:48:28 <CodeShark> Liquid3xB: the only authoritative time-related aspect of bitcoin is the order in which blocks are chained
3361 2013-04-02 21:48:38 <CodeShark> not the exact time at which they were found
3362 2013-04-02 21:49:02 <Liquid3xB> CodeShark, Gotcha thank you for the info and teaching me somethign ew
3363 2013-04-02 21:49:04 <Liquid3xB> new
3364 2013-04-02 21:49:10 <Liquid3xB> Stupid n key isnt working well
3365 2013-04-02 21:49:26 <Liquid3xB> Never realize how important the "N" is untill it doesnt work right
3366 2013-04-02 21:49:37 <CodeShark> if your transaction is in block A which happened before block B which happened before block C, the entire network agrees that the transactions in C come later - but they don't have to agree by how much
3367 2013-04-02 21:50:04 <ProfMac> sipa, I am willing to read any preliminary info on "the payment protocol."  lol.  Can you tell me where I should go?
3368 2013-04-02 21:50:18 <Liquid3xB> CodeShark, So you are saying depending on which block my transaction went off on and what order it was recieved by the network is how it will be procressed
3369 2013-04-02 21:50:40 <sipa> ProfMac: https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/4120476
3370 2013-04-02 21:50:40 <CodeShark> it depends on what block it gets into
3371 2013-04-02 21:51:09 <CodeShark> transactions are not timestamped - it is impossible to enforce transaction timestamps (or claims of priority)
3372 2013-04-02 21:51:10 hsmithsN7 has joined
3373 2013-04-02 21:51:19 bbtech has quit (Quit:  HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Nine out of ten l33t h4x0rz prefer it)
3374 2013-04-02 21:51:20 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3375 2013-04-02 21:51:20 <CodeShark> the only authoritative claim is that it got into a block
3376 2013-04-02 21:51:40 pacpac has joined
3377 2013-04-02 21:51:45 <Liquid3xB> And than its always in the block becasue its a chain so block 1 goes to block 2 and so on
3378 2013-04-02 21:51:50 <CodeShark> and the blocks have a strict order because each one points to the one before
3379 2013-04-02 21:51:52 i2pRelay has joined
3380 2013-04-02 21:52:20 <Liquid3xB> And y ou need the past block to properly vaildate the next block correct
3381 2013-04-02 21:52:29 <CodeShark> correct
3382 2013-04-02 21:52:33 <Liquid3xB> I know im not using hte correct terms and I apologize
3383 2013-04-02 21:52:37 coblee has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3384 2013-04-02 21:52:51 wallet42 has joined
3385 2013-04-02 21:53:08 <lianj> whats the total transaction count in main chain? someone got the number handy?
3386 2013-04-02 21:53:19 * TheSeven has an internet outage, probably due to a failing cable, and is online using a backup line with just 400kbit/s upstream bandwidth
3387 2013-04-02 21:53:20 <Liquid3xB> CAnt the bot tell you?
3388 2013-04-02 21:53:26 <TheSeven> my bitcoind completely fills that up
3389 2013-04-02 21:53:29 <TheSeven> is that normal these days?
3390 2013-04-02 21:53:37 Grouver has quit (Quit:  HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The professional IRC Client :D)
3391 2013-04-02 21:53:38 <sipa> lianj: 15.4 tx
3392 2013-04-02 21:53:52 <sipa> TheSeven: do you listen for incoming connections?
3393 2013-04-02 21:53:58 <sipa> lianj: eh, 15.4M tx
3394 2013-04-02 21:54:14 <TheSeven> hm, not sure, probably not on the backup line, let me check
3395 2013-04-02 21:54:23 <sipa> TheSeven: how many connections do you have?
3396 2013-04-02 21:54:32 <TheSeven> anyway, even when using my primary line which does listen I usually had just 10 connections
3397 2013-04-02 21:54:47 <lianj> sipa: thanks. currently importing into a db and its at [195558, 6370776, 12614956, 14504522], [blocks, txs, inputs, outputs]. so the last 30k blocks double the tx count?
3398 2013-04-02 21:54:49 <denisx> TheSeven: then dont solomine and swich to my pool! ;)
3399 2013-04-02 21:54:51 <TheSeven> right now I've killed it, so I don't know
3400 2013-04-02 21:54:53 tyn has joined
3401 2013-04-02 21:55:06 <TheSeven> denisx: I'm not solo'ing, just hosting my wallet here and serving as a p2p node
3402 2013-04-02 21:55:07 <Liquid3xB> CodeShark, Network Propagation
3403 2013-04-02 21:55:07 <Liquid3xB> 1% - 14 Nodes - (Very Poor) is that why its taking so long and what exactly does that mean network propagation?
3404 2013-04-02 21:55:17 <TheSeven> denisx: in fact you already have all of my hashrate on your pool
3405 2013-04-02 21:55:27 <denisx> TheSeven: okok ;)
3406 2013-04-02 21:55:48 <CodeShark> network propagation is how quickly other nodes learn about your transaction
3407 2013-04-02 21:56:01 <CodeShark> just because they learn about it doesn't mean they consider it valid, though
3408 2013-04-02 21:56:06 <Liquid3xB> Is every miner a node?
3409 2013-04-02 21:56:09 <CodeShark> yes
3410 2013-04-02 21:56:15 <Liquid3xB> Okay
3411 2013-04-02 21:56:21 <TheSeven> sipa: 19 connections just minutes after starting it up
3412 2013-04-02 21:56:23 coblee has joined
3413 2013-04-02 21:56:27 <TheSeven> so it's probably accepting incoming ones
3414 2013-04-02 21:56:32 zrad has joined
3415 2013-04-02 21:56:34 <TheSeven> but did something change in that area recently?
3416 2013-04-02 21:56:49 k9quaint has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3417 2013-04-02 21:56:57 <TheSeven> I used to just have 10 total even if it listened publicly
3418 2013-04-02 21:57:02 <DarkGhost`> CodeShark what makes it valid than?\
3419 2013-04-02 21:57:09 <sipa> TheSeven: if you listen for connections and are reachable, nodes will try to connect to you to download the chain from
3420 2013-04-02 21:57:25 <CodeShark> DarkGhost`: when it gets into a block and the block is accepted by the network
3421 2013-04-02 21:57:30 <denisx> TheSeven: btc are worth ten times as much means ten times as much nodes maybe
3422 2013-04-02 21:57:31 <TheSeven> I've never noticed it having that many connections
3423 2013-04-02 21:57:35 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: thanks
3424 2013-04-02 21:57:37 pizzacat has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3425 2013-04-02 21:57:42 randy-waterhouse has joined
3426 2013-04-02 21:57:45 <TheSeven> hm, possibly
3427 2013-04-02 21:57:51 <sipa> lianj: that's possible, yes
3428 2013-04-02 21:57:52 <Liquid3xB> DarkGhost`, Long time
3429 2013-04-02 21:58:04 <lianj> sipa: wow ;)
3430 2013-04-02 21:58:33 <CodeShark> or rather, when it gets into a block and the block is accepted by the network, that's what's authoritative
3431 2013-04-02 21:58:36 <Liquid3xB> DarkGhost`, Still waiting for those BTC to move from blockchain to local wallet
3432 2013-04-02 21:58:43 <DarkGhost`> ok
3433 2013-04-02 21:59:04 <UukGoblin> hm, so after encrypting a wallet... is there a way to flush the keypool?
3434 2013-04-02 21:59:18 <Liquid3xB> When you encrypt is makes a new pool
3435 2013-04-02 21:59:21 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3436 2013-04-02 21:59:22 <Liquid3xB> of 100
3437 2013-04-02 21:59:23 Optimus-Prime has joined
3438 2013-04-02 21:59:31 <Liquid3xB> If I remember correcly
3439 2013-04-02 21:59:53 i2pRelay has joined
3440 2013-04-02 21:59:55 <sipa> UukGoblin: the keypool is flushed when encrypting
3441 2013-04-02 22:00:15 <sipa> the keys in it remain in the wallet, but will not be used
3442 2013-04-02 22:00:18 <sipa> *old
3443 2013-04-02 22:00:19 <UukGoblin> sipa, ah cool, thanks
3444 2013-04-02 22:00:26 _pr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3445 2013-04-02 22:00:27 <UukGoblin> perfect
3446 2013-04-02 22:00:47 <Liquid3xB> UukGoblin, MAke sure you have backups of before and after encryption
3447 2013-04-02 22:01:11 <UukGoblin> Liquid3xB, it's a fresh wallet
3448 2013-04-02 22:01:21 <UukGoblin> my girlfriend wanted to learn to use bitcoin ;-]
3449 2013-04-02 22:01:31 <Liquid3xB> UukGoblin, Just giving the PSA.... Cool GF
3450 2013-04-02 22:01:39 <Liquid3xB> UukGoblin, Mine could give 2 shits about BTC
3451 2013-04-02 22:01:42 k9quaint has joined
3452 2013-04-02 22:01:44 <TheSeven> does someone want me as a vircurex referral?
3453 2013-04-02 22:01:46 <redeeman> mine owns BTC :)
3454 2013-04-02 22:01:50 <redeeman> several :)
3455 2013-04-02 22:01:51 <TheSeven> denisx? you possibly?
3456 2013-04-02 22:02:09 randy-waterhouse has left ()
3457 2013-04-02 22:02:11 <denisx> TheSeven: what?
3458 2013-04-02 22:02:31 <TheSeven> have a vircurex account and want me as a referral?
3459 2013-04-02 22:02:43 <denisx> I dont even know what that is
3460 2013-04-02 22:02:56 <TheSeven> ok, someone else then?
3461 2013-04-02 22:02:57 zz_qwertyoruiop is now known as qwertyoruiop
3462 2013-04-02 22:03:01 <Liquid3xB> lol
3463 2013-04-02 22:03:03 <sipa> that seems like a strange out-of-the-blue question
3464 2013-04-02 22:03:04 <_g> phantomcircuit: they "kind of" have an api.. its undocumented but their javascript uses it without auth
3465 2013-04-02 22:03:05 quaz0r has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3466 2013-04-02 22:03:44 <_g> https://gist.github.com/gdoteof/5296457
3467 2013-04-02 22:04:08 abadr has quit (Quit: abadr)
3468 2013-04-02 22:04:17 eculver has joined
3469 2013-04-02 22:04:35 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
3470 2013-04-02 22:04:45 denisx_ has joined
3471 2013-04-02 22:05:20 <UukGoblin> hmm so you probably get this a lot, but why is the initial blockchain download so slow? I've added a node available on a GigE LAN, the CPU usage is between 10%-30% (in top), and the disk is hardly used at all... where is the bottleneck?
3472 2013-04-02 22:05:55 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin: your peers in that case.
3473 2013-04-02 22:06:01 <sipa> UukGoblin: crappy network sync
3474 2013-04-02 22:06:09 <sipa> UukGoblin: -connect it to a fast node helps a lot
3475 2013-04-02 22:06:24 <gmaxwell> or really "peer" to be particular. Adding isn't enough— connect and you'll be happy.
3476 2013-04-02 22:06:50 <gmaxwell> sipa: is it also the case that the new buffering stuff make it faster in the silly 'lan' case?
3477 2013-04-02 22:07:23 <sipa> gmaxwell: haven't tested that, but i think it's reasonable that it speeds things up a bit (by reducing latency)
3478 2013-04-02 22:07:23 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3479 2013-04-02 22:07:33 <jgarzik> UukGoblin: use the torrent, until our peer behavior is fixed
3480 2013-04-02 22:07:48 <sipa> though if you want to serve on a LAN, increasing the send buffer size probably helps, though
3481 2013-04-02 22:07:54 <sipa> (with the new code)
3482 2013-04-02 22:07:55 i2pRelay has joined
3483 2013-04-02 22:07:58 hkjdskjf has joined
3484 2013-04-02 22:08:14 * lianj prefers a bootstrap.dat
3485 2013-04-02 22:08:15 JZavala has joined
3486 2013-04-02 22:08:15 <UukGoblin> sipa, I used 'addnode' on the other node and I see (in netstat) that they're connected
3487 2013-04-02 22:08:23 <sipa> UukGoblin: doesn't mean a think
3488 2013-04-02 22:08:32 <sipa> UukGoblin: it may use another peer to sync
3489 2013-04-02 22:08:38 <UukGoblin> hm ok
3490 2013-04-02 22:08:42 <UukGoblin> I'll -connect then :-)
3491 2013-04-02 22:08:53 <gmaxwell> UukGoblin: you will be impressed.
3492 2013-04-02 22:08:56 <sipa> and even if it did, another node announces a new found block can confuse it
3493 2013-04-02 22:09:08 <sipa> english my sucking today
3494 2013-04-02 22:10:06 jorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3495 2013-04-02 22:10:52 RoboTeddy has joined
3496 2013-04-02 22:12:52 one_zero has joined
3497 2013-04-02 22:13:00 <UukGoblin> ok cool now it's using a more sensible amount of CPU :-)
3498 2013-04-02 22:13:02 coolsa has joined
3499 2013-04-02 22:13:38 <UukGoblin> most of a core
3500 2013-04-02 22:13:41 <sipa> are you past the latest checkpoint already?
3501 2013-04-02 22:14:17 pete79 has joined
3502 2013-04-02 22:14:49 <UukGoblin> hm... dunno
3503 2013-04-02 22:15:01 twobitcoins_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3504 2013-04-02 22:15:18 <sipa> which block are you at, and which version?
3505 2013-04-02 22:15:25 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3506 2013-04-02 22:15:28 twobitcoins_ has joined
3507 2013-04-02 22:15:35 rdymac has joined
3508 2013-04-02 22:15:48 pacpac has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3509 2013-04-02 22:15:57 i2pRelay has joined
3510 2013-04-02 22:16:10 <UukGoblin> 0.8.1, 35k blocks to go
3511 2013-04-02 22:16:25 TD has joined
3512 2013-04-02 22:16:37 Belxjander has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3513 2013-04-02 22:18:23 <sipa> ;;calc [bc,blocks]-225430
3514 2013-04-02 22:18:23 <gribble> Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
3515 2013-04-02 22:18:28 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
3516 2013-04-02 22:18:29 <gribble> 229368
3517 2013-04-02 22:18:36 <sipa> ;;calc [bc,blocks] - 225430
3518 2013-04-02 22:18:36 <gribble> 3938
3519 2013-04-02 22:18:37 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3520 2013-04-02 22:18:53 <sipa> UukGoblin: ok, you'll notice CPU increase when you hit 3938 blocks left
3521 2013-04-02 22:18:57 wallet421 has joined
3522 2013-04-02 22:19:22 TraderExcel has joined
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3524 2013-04-02 22:20:13 jaromil has joined
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3526 2013-04-02 22:21:06 bernard75 has joined
3527 2013-04-02 22:21:23 <denisx_> Luke-Jr: how much power does it need for 24GH/s?
3528 2013-04-02 22:22:38 Graet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3529 2013-04-02 22:23:26 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3530 2013-04-02 22:23:42 <jaromil> heya all. OT: nice new episode of max keiser on russia tv talks about bitcoin (okok, who doesn't nowadays?!) however, its well done
3531 2013-04-02 22:23:59 i2pRelay has joined
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3533 2013-04-02 22:25:01 k9quaint has quit (Changing host)
3534 2013-04-02 22:25:01 k9quaint has joined
3535 2013-04-02 22:25:12 <TheSeven> 26 connections
3536 2013-04-02 22:25:16 <TheSeven> never had that many before
3537 2013-04-02 22:25:18 graingert has joined
3538 2013-04-02 22:25:23 <TheSeven> why does this hit when I'm on a fallback link?
3539 2013-04-02 22:25:34 graingert is now known as Guest75975
3540 2013-04-02 22:26:05 <denisx_> TheSeven: you just didnt notice before
3541 2013-04-02 22:26:31 <TheSeven> well I looked at getinfo occasionally, and it was never more than 10-15
3542 2013-04-02 22:26:37 <TheSeven> but yeah, that was a few weeks ago
3543 2013-04-02 22:27:17 john5223 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3544 2013-04-02 22:27:21 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3545 2013-04-02 22:29:58 Davincij15 has joined
3546 2013-04-02 22:30:22 RBecker has quit (Quit: You care. You're there for me.  You love me so much, and I never want to let it go.  You are the one truly amazing person. MDR 3/6/11 <3)
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3551 2013-04-02 22:32:22 ConceptPending has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3552 2013-04-02 22:32:54 <jaromil> jgarzik: saw your last commit on picocoin, thanks, makes it more readable for what I was looking for.
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3554 2013-04-02 22:33:47 <noah_> Question:  Started playing around with the command line version of bitcoind.  I see a ton of commands on the official bit coin wiki that do not seem available.  (Mostly relating to block chain stuff)  Is there another version or something special I need to setup to get to the block chain features?
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3561 2013-04-02 22:37:19 <sipa> noah_: such as?
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3563 2013-04-02 22:38:32 <noah_> betblock, getmininginfo,
3564 2013-04-02 22:38:32 <dtmfx> I have a transaction that has been sitting in my client for 2 days with 0 confirmations, it is a 22.7 btc transfer and I put a .0025 fee with it but it still hasn't made it to the blockchain. Any ideas on what I can do?
3565 2013-04-02 22:38:35 <noah_> following here:  https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_Calls_list
3566 2013-04-02 22:39:05 <noah_> My overall goal is to get the hash of the latest block.  (Using that for an application that I am considering building.)
3567 2013-04-02 22:39:07 <Luke-Jr> denisx_: too much
3568 2013-04-02 22:39:11 <sipa> noah_: it's a bit outdated, but all that should be available
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3570 2013-04-02 22:39:25 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3571 2013-04-02 22:39:26 <sipa> just some of the latest things are missing on that wiki page
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3573 2013-04-02 22:39:36 <noah_> Hmmm.  When I issued a "help" command, the list that came back was much much shorter
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3576 2013-04-02 22:40:29 <sipa> noah_: getinfo gives you best height, then do getblockhash with that height
3577 2013-04-02 22:41:33 <sipa> noah_: getmininginfo was never in a release afaik; it has the name getblocktemplate now
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3579 2013-04-02 22:42:16 <gavinandresen> noah_: what version of bitcoin?  I just ran ./bitcoind help and got:   http://pastebin.com/2HahjeGf
3580 2013-04-02 22:43:13 <sipa> gavinandresen: what do you think about a 0.8.2 from current master, after the recent network improvements?
3581 2013-04-02 22:43:15 <noah_> sipa:  Cool.  will try now.  Thanks
3582 2013-04-02 22:43:28 <noah_> gavinadresen:  Give me a second to start mine again and will let you know.
3583 2013-04-02 22:43:31 <gavinandresen> sipa: I think a 0.8.2 very soon is a good idea
3584 2013-04-02 22:44:40 <sipa> grwat
3585 2013-04-02 22:44:43 <sipa> great
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3587 2013-04-02 22:46:16 <sipa> there have been a few GUI changes recently that broke some things, so maybe not immediately
3588 2013-04-02 22:46:48 <sipa> i think we should try to get the thread cleanup in a release soon as well, but i understand there are still some problems on OSX?
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3590 2013-04-02 22:47:11 <gavinandresen> sipa: yes, a report of a crash I can't reproduce
3591 2013-04-02 22:47:31 <gavinandresen> sipa: could be a boost version issue, could be a real issue I'm just not seeing because it is an order-of-destructors problem....
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3593 2013-04-02 22:48:04 <Eliel> dtmfx: I expect you'll have to tell reveal the txid, at the very least. It's very difficult to assist with the vague description you gave.
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3595 2013-04-02 22:48:23 <gavinandresen> sipa: I'm also trying to figure out why pull-tester isn't happy with it, trying to reproduce the doesn't-shut-down-in-15-seconds problem on the build machine itself
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3598 2013-04-02 22:49:13 <dtmfx> Eliel: 0f31b30995fa14cc0efb9b23cdbe4890ce19288d6c4d6ec8fe3647941418842d
3599 2013-04-02 22:50:09 <Eliel> dtmfx: for some reason, that's not broadcast on the network. Which client are you using?
3600 2013-04-02 22:50:28 <sipa> gavinandresen: ok; i'd really like to see that merged, but not while such problems appear
3601 2013-04-02 22:50:34 <dtmfx> The Windows Bitcoin client 0.8 beta
3602 2013-04-02 22:50:54 <dtmfx> Eliel: that's my whole issue, it's been 2 days and the thing hasn't made it on the blockchain
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3604 2013-04-02 22:51:20 <Eliel> dtmfx: it's not just that it's not in the blockchain, it looks like it's never made it anywhere but your computer even.
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3606 2013-04-02 22:51:41 <Eliel> at least, blockchain.info doesn't have it
3607 2013-04-02 22:51:52 <dtmfx> I have several unconfirmed transactions actually and I was trying to move my available funds to an exchange
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3610 2013-04-02 22:52:14 <dtmfx> I wonder if I could delete all of those transactions in my wallet and do a rescan
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3613 2013-04-02 22:52:56 <Eliel> dtmfx: that'd probably work.
3614 2013-04-02 22:53:05 <dtmfx> I'll have to try that when I get home
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3616 2013-04-02 22:53:33 <dtmfx> I noticed when I tried earlier, I deleted another transaction that came right after it and it made my big transaction show up in pieces
3617 2013-04-02 22:54:04 <dtmfx> This all just makes me terribly nervous because it is still 22.7 btc
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3622 2013-04-02 22:55:25 <BenderCoin> does anyone know if transaction id's are ALWAYS 64 characters long?
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3624 2013-04-02 22:55:38 <Luke-Jr> BenderCoin: yes
3625 2013-04-02 22:55:53 <Luke-Jr> BenderCoin: unless we change that at some point
3626 2013-04-02 22:55:58 <BenderCoin> thank you very much Luke-Jr.
3627 2013-04-02 22:56:03 <sipa> they are 256-bit hashes, so that's 64 characters when represented in hex
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3629 2013-04-02 22:56:37 <Eliel> dtmfx: if a transaction doesn't get confirmed, nothing has really moved. As long as you've got the private keys to your addresses, nothing is lost.
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3632 2013-04-02 22:59:33 <noah_> gavinandresen:  I get a shorter list:  http://pastebin.com/Grvt85HZ
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3634 2013-04-02 23:00:29 <gavinandresen> noah_: what version does the getinfo RPC say is running?
3635 2013-04-02 23:00:45 <noah_> "version":32400,
3636 2013-04-02 23:01:23 <gavinandresen> that version is ancient
3637 2013-04-02 23:01:56 <gavinandresen> current version is 0.8.2, you're running 0.3.24 ......
3638 2013-04-02 23:02:06 <noah_> Ahhh.  Might be my problem.  Used apt-get to install in ubuntu.  Guess I'll go find the source and install correctly.  Thanks!
3639 2013-04-02 23:02:17 <sipa> 0.3.24 is from juli 2011...
3640 2013-04-02 23:02:33 <sipa> noah_: there's a PPA with packages for ubuntu
3641 2013-04-02 23:02:43 <noah_> Sipa:  Thanks!
3642 2013-04-02 23:02:49 <sipa> gavinandresen: that 0.3.24 is going to hurt on may 15th...
3643 2013-04-02 23:03:05 <sipa> noah_: just to check, what block did you reach?
3644 2013-04-02 23:03:24 <noah_> sips - not sure how to check.  But I can give you output from the get info command?
3645 2013-04-02 23:03:33 <noah_> {"result":{"version":32400,"balance":0.00000000,"blocks":173739,"connections":2,"proxy":"","generate":false,"genproclimit":-1,"difficulty":1626553.48132894,"hashespersec":0,"testnet":false,"keypoololdest":1364888705,"paytxfee":0.00000000,"errors":"URGENT: upgrade required, see http://bitcoin.org/dos for details"},"error":null,"id":"curltest"}
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3647 2013-04-02 23:03:46 <sipa> ok, 173739
3648 2013-04-02 23:03:55 <sipa> impressive it made it that far, i guess :)
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3650 2013-04-02 23:04:31 <gavinandresen> huh, I forgot about the dos upgrade alert….  nice to see it is still reminding people upgrade required.  Maybe I should have made the message ALL CAPS
3651 2013-04-02 23:04:45 <noah_> which makefile do I want for linux with kernel 3.2.0.35 ??
3652 2013-04-02 23:05:08 <sipa> noah_: you want to compile linux?
3653 2013-04-02 23:05:13 <noah_> Yes
3654 2013-04-02 23:05:15 <sipa> noah_: or do you mean bitcoin?
3655 2013-04-02 23:05:22 <noah_> I mean bit coin :)
3656 2013-04-02 23:05:45 <sipa> your kernel has almost nothing to do with that... read doc/build-unix.txt
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3658 2013-04-02 23:05:59 <noah_> Great.  Thanks!
3659 2013-04-02 23:06:08 <noah_> Going to sign off and get this running!  Thanks guys!!
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3688 2013-04-02 23:26:22 <noah_> Hi.  question about managing a "wallet".  Want to keep my keys on a thumb drive. Don't want them to every be copied onto main machine.  Is there a way to have bitcoind or bitcoin-qt simply use the thumb drive without copying it?  Concept is to plug in drive, do transactions, then remove drive.
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3690 2013-04-02 23:27:47 SlickRick has quit (Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.)))
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3693 2013-04-02 23:29:37 <kermit_> noah_ why not print them in barcode
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3695 2013-04-02 23:29:39 <kermit_> ?
3696 2013-04-02 23:30:01 <kermit_> wallet2 barcode on paper
3697 2013-04-02 23:30:16 <noah_> Kermit.  Because I may want to conduct the occasional transaction.  Barcode is nice for long term storage, but very inconvenient for an account with transactions
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3699 2013-04-02 23:30:26 <Luke-Jr> noah_: -datadir=/path/to/it
3700 2013-04-02 23:30:40 <noah_> Luke-Jr:  Nice!
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3703 2013-04-02 23:30:50 <Luke-Jr> noah_: note it is used for the blockchain as well
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3705 2013-04-02 23:30:54 <noah_> Do any of the GUI clients support that as well?
3706 2013-04-02 23:31:00 <Luke-Jr> Bitcoin-Qt
3707 2013-04-02 23:31:20 <noah_> Luke-Jr:  Ugh.  Don't really need the whole block chain on a thumb drive.  Guess I could delete it each time, but that is awkward. (and slow)
3708 2013-04-02 23:31:22 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: ping btw
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3716 2013-04-02 23:36:04 <muhoo> has anyone created a bittorrent-like approach for downloading the chain? where it'll parallellize the work among multiple peers?
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3718 2013-04-02 23:36:18 <sipa> yes, search the forum for bootstrap.dat
3719 2013-04-02 23:36:28 <muhoo> that wasn't what i meant
3720 2013-04-02 23:36:30 <Luke-Jr> muhoo: there are plenty of improvements that can be done before that even
3721 2013-04-02 23:36:32 <muhoo> i meant in the client itself
3722 2013-04-02 23:36:39 <muhoo> s/the/a/
3723 2013-04-02 23:36:48 <sipa> you mean parallel downloading? yes, after headers-first sync
3724 2013-04-02 23:37:03 <sipa> it's not hard to do if we have headers-first
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3748 2013-04-02 23:49:21 <warren> sipa: starts as SPV then fills in full later?
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3755 2013-04-02 23:55:54 <gmaxwell> warren: thats orthorgonal.
3756 2013-04-02 23:56:15 <warren> ok
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3758 2013-04-02 23:56:16 <gmaxwell> warren: headers first just means that the downloading process seperates header pulling and block pulling.
3759 2013-04-02 23:56:55 <warren> ah, so the majority of the download can be in any order
3760 2013-04-02 23:57:23 <phantomcircuit> warren, there's effectively two "levels" of verification
3761 2013-04-02 23:57:31 <sipa> three, actually
3762 2013-04-02 23:57:39 <phantomcircuit> sipa, what's the third?
3763 2013-04-02 23:57:49 <phantomcircuit> i was going to say blocks, then blocks + transactions
3764 2013-04-02 23:58:04 <phantomcircuit> (blocks would of course include merkle tree fragments for transactions you care about)
3765 2013-04-02 23:58:07 <sipa> you can also separate context-independent and context-dependent
3766 2013-04-02 23:58:21 <phantomcircuit> sipa, can you expand on that i have no idea what you mean
3767 2013-04-02 23:58:41 <sipa> for some verifications, you don't need to know a block's ancesty
3768 2013-04-02 23:58:48 <phantomcircuit> oh
3769 2013-04-02 23:58:52 <phantomcircuit> example?
3770 2013-04-02 23:59:10 <sipa> check that a coinbase has exactly one input of the right type
3771 2013-04-02 23:59:19 <phantomcircuit> ah
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3774 2013-04-02 23:59:57 <sipa> so you have 1) checks done on the headers to build the best chain, 2) checks done on the full blocks 3) checks done when connecting those blocks to the best chain