1 2013-04-04 00:00:10 gavinandresen has joined
2 2013-04-04 00:00:10 gavinandresen has quit (Changing host)
3 2013-04-04 00:00:10 gavinandresen has joined
4 2013-04-04 00:00:23 <sipa> child-pays-for-parent would also help a lot on the network if deployed, so that a receiver could add fee to a transaction to boost it
5 2013-04-04 00:00:41 <gmaxwell> Things could be made better by getting third party wallet code fixed so that it stops paying 0.001 BTC even on tiny transactions because it fixes the fee before it knows how big the txn will be.
6 2013-04-04 00:01:00 <jgarzik> users are hitting this right now
7 2013-04-04 00:01:00 joshsm has joined
8 2013-04-04 00:01:06 <jgarzik> with the influx of new press, I imagine
9 2013-04-04 00:01:14 <gmaxwell> e.g. the fee market is somewhat being distorted by incompetent participants who pay way too much.
10 2013-04-04 00:01:21 * gavinandresen goes to read the scrollback...
11 2013-04-04 00:01:40 <jgarzik> several new threads about confirmations and fees, and zero fee TXs are visibly taking a while to confirm
12 2013-04-04 00:01:56 <sipa> mempool ~4000 tx
13 2013-04-04 00:02:04 <gmaxwell> (Bitcoinj is guilty of this, but I suspect other wallet software also does the same thing.)
14 2013-04-04 00:02:14 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
15 2013-04-04 00:02:22 TheLordOfTime has joined
16 2013-04-04 00:02:29 <sipa> and instawallet, which was consistently paying no fees, is down
17 2013-04-04 00:02:39 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
18 2013-04-04 00:02:40 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: this also happened about 1.5 weeks ago, e.g. I had a txn the monday before last take about 6 hours.
19 2013-04-04 00:03:12 i2pRelay has joined
20 2013-04-04 00:03:29 mologie has joined
21 2013-04-04 00:03:35 knotwork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
22 2013-04-04 00:03:41 <gmaxwell> (I'm used to spending very old coins, but in that case I was moving new coins)
23 2013-04-04 00:04:41 debiantoruser has joined
24 2013-04-04 00:04:43 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
25 2013-04-04 00:04:50 <bonks> I sent 4 transactions the other week with 0.5 BTC each, all but one was immediate. The one took over a day to confirm and I think it was fairly old coins
26 2013-04-04 00:05:51 abadr has joined
27 2013-04-04 00:06:02 <EvilPete> I don't understand why blocks lik http://blockchain.info/block-index/370522 (slush pool) have 208 tx's with a 91k block given the backlog.. I figured most pools would be trying to get as many as possible, I saw btcguild hitting 460K for a while.
28 2013-04-04 00:06:03 <gavinandresen> anybody know why boost::threads might misbehave running under wine?
29 2013-04-04 00:06:50 <sipa> gavinandresen: bleh
30 2013-04-04 00:07:00 <gmaxwell> EvilPete: its informative to actually look at whats in the backlog.
31 2013-04-04 00:07:03 <gavinandresen> ⦠I'm STILL debugging problems on the pull-tester machine, this time with unit tests hanging forever after interrupting a thread group then joining it....
32 2013-04-04 00:07:19 <EvilPete> gmaxwell: all SD?
33 2013-04-04 00:07:31 <sipa> gavinandresen: you know which thread?
34 2013-04-04 00:07:39 skppo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
35 2013-04-04 00:07:45 <lolant> gavinandresen: are you THE gavinandresen ?
36 2013-04-04 00:07:56 <gavinandresen> yes, the second thread in test/util_tests.cpp, test case util_loop_forever
37 2013-04-04 00:08:24 keystroke has quit ()
38 2013-04-04 00:08:54 stalled has joined
39 2013-04-04 00:09:21 <gavinandresen> mmm⦠I wonder if mingw boost::threads has problems interrupting twiceâ¦.
40 2013-04-04 00:09:40 <gmaxwell> EvilPete: for example: http://blockchain.info/tx/762a8175d20a8963a371aff1e4157630c961cdc2ec512a3b1da8cec45cac8db2
41 2013-04-04 00:09:56 FredEE_ has joined
42 2013-04-04 00:10:13 <gmaxwell> EvilPete: not that its dice, but that it it's a pure bitdust transaction
43 2013-04-04 00:10:16 fydel has joined
44 2013-04-04 00:10:23 fydel has left ()
45 2013-04-04 00:10:38 faidell has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
46 2013-04-04 00:10:40 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
47 2013-04-04 00:10:54 <gmaxwell> I'm glad that person is cleaning up the utxo set...
48 2013-04-04 00:11:12 i2pRelay has joined
49 2013-04-04 00:11:23 FredEE has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
50 2013-04-04 00:11:24 FredEE_ is now known as FredEE
51 2013-04-04 00:11:34 ActiveMember has joined
52 2013-04-04 00:11:37 Guest80438 has quit (Quit: Has quit)
53 2013-04-04 00:12:06 <gmaxwell> but 206 inputs, 37kbytes.. for 0.00006608 output ...
54 2013-04-04 00:12:21 <gmaxwell> I like that the fee is almost twice the output size.
55 2013-04-04 00:12:33 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
56 2013-04-04 00:13:05 <gmaxwell> there are a bunch of these...
57 2013-04-04 00:13:42 <gavinandresen> sipa: that was it; create thread group, create thread, interrupt, join⦠then create thread interrupt join doesn't work under wine. Happily we never do that except in the unit test, and I can rewrite the unit test
58 2013-04-04 00:13:54 <sipa> gavinandresen: great to hear
59 2013-04-04 00:14:37 polrpaul has joined
60 2013-04-04 00:14:47 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
61 2013-04-04 00:18:41 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
62 2013-04-04 00:19:02 Garr255 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
63 2013-04-04 00:19:05 orblivion has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
64 2013-04-04 00:19:12 i2pRelay has joined
65 2013-04-04 00:19:22 rodrigovieira has joined
66 2013-04-04 00:19:41 orblivion has joined
67 2013-04-04 00:22:35 darkee_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
68 2013-04-04 00:23:07 darkee_ has joined
69 2013-04-04 00:24:03 Ashaman has joined
70 2013-04-04 00:24:22 abadr has quit (Quit: abadr)
71 2013-04-04 00:24:35 nomailin1 has quit (Quit: nomailin1)
72 2013-04-04 00:26:43 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
73 2013-04-04 00:27:14 i2pRelay has joined
74 2013-04-04 00:30:49 syxbits has joined
75 2013-04-04 00:30:56 bernard75 has quit ()
76 2013-04-04 00:31:20 rodrigovieira has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
77 2013-04-04 00:31:43 ActiveMember has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
78 2013-04-04 00:33:39 knotwork has joined
79 2013-04-04 00:34:40 Saberu2 has joined
80 2013-04-04 00:34:43 Saberu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
81 2013-04-04 00:34:45 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
82 2013-04-04 00:35:17 i2pRelay has joined
83 2013-04-04 00:36:07 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
84 2013-04-04 00:36:14 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
85 2013-04-04 00:37:12 jspilman has joined
86 2013-04-04 00:37:15 XRPTrader2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
87 2013-04-04 00:37:28 XRPTrader2 has joined
88 2013-04-04 00:40:39 ActiveMember has joined
89 2013-04-04 00:40:44 MobPhone has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
90 2013-04-04 00:42:47 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
91 2013-04-04 00:42:54 <Ogig> what happens if a broadcasted transaction that won't or may not be mined because of no fees? will it remain in the mempool(?) forever?
92 2013-04-04 00:43:22 i2pRelay has joined
93 2013-04-04 00:43:31 <gmaxwell> Ogig: until the node restarts.
94 2013-04-04 00:43:34 <jgarzik> Ogig: it remains in each node's mempool. collectively, as nodes across the network restart, it is slowly forgotten.
95 2013-04-04 00:43:43 circle has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
96 2013-04-04 00:44:07 <gmaxwell> Though some insufficient fee txn (ones with priority that is too low) never go into the mempool to begin with.
97 2013-04-04 00:44:11 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
98 2013-04-04 00:44:22 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
99 2013-04-04 00:45:33 <Ogig> how does the client handles that situation?
100 2013-04-04 00:45:35 <EvilPete> Ogig: if you look at your debug.log, you'll see ResendWalletTransactions() periodically if there are unconfirmed transactions.
101 2013-04-04 00:45:40 coolsa has joined
102 2013-04-04 00:46:15 MobPhone has joined
103 2013-04-04 00:47:51 BlehTM has joined
104 2013-04-04 00:47:55 <sipa> how many transactions are we doing +- per day now?
105 2013-04-04 00:48:33 Bjander has joined
106 2013-04-04 00:48:44 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
107 2013-04-04 00:50:24 XertroV has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
108 2013-04-04 00:50:47 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
109 2013-04-04 00:51:19 i2pRelay has joined
110 2013-04-04 00:51:43 tockitj has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
111 2013-04-04 00:52:02 manet_ has joined
112 2013-04-04 00:52:04 jgarzik has quit (Quit: Client exiting)
113 2013-04-04 00:52:36 <gavinandresen> sipa: http://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions
114 2013-04-04 00:52:46 <gavinandresen> 60,000 or so?
115 2013-04-04 00:53:51 BlehTM has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130307023931])
116 2013-04-04 00:53:53 graingert has joined
117 2013-04-04 00:53:53 graingert has quit (Changing host)
118 2013-04-04 00:53:53 graingert has joined
119 2013-04-04 00:53:58 Saberu2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
120 2013-04-04 00:53:58 <sipa> gavinandresen: right, thanks
121 2013-04-04 00:54:36 <sipa> gavinandresen: by 'backporting' the 225430 checkpoints into head, we forgot to update the transactions statistics used for the progress bar
122 2013-04-04 00:55:08 <gavinandresen> sipa: ahh⦠easy fix, though, yes?
123 2013-04-04 00:55:13 <sipa> yeah, fixing now
124 2013-04-04 00:55:21 haqe17 has joined
125 2013-04-04 00:55:42 manet has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
126 2013-04-04 00:56:28 <haqe17> Is it possible to change the protocol so there will be more BTC overall? Also is it possible to change is such that lost/inactive BTC are replaced?
127 2013-04-04 00:56:54 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
128 2013-04-04 00:56:55 <gmaxwell> haqe17: Lets go to #bitcoin and talk about that.
129 2013-04-04 00:57:06 rcorreia has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
130 2013-04-04 00:57:10 Bjander has joined
131 2013-04-04 00:57:12 <haqe17> ok... im in #bitcoin
132 2013-04-04 00:57:13 MobPhone has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
133 2013-04-04 00:57:35 Bjander has left ()
134 2013-04-04 00:57:55 MobPhone has joined
135 2013-04-04 00:58:50 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
136 2013-04-04 00:59:22 i2pRelay has joined
137 2013-04-04 00:59:39 <gavinandresen> huzzah, shutdowncleanup FINALLY passes pull-tester
138 2013-04-04 01:00:14 <sipa> ah, the mighty god puultestah smiles upon thy code!
139 2013-04-04 01:00:29 graingert has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
140 2013-04-04 01:00:41 graingert has joined
141 2013-04-04 01:00:42 graingert has quit (Changing host)
142 2013-04-04 01:00:42 graingert has joined
143 2013-04-04 01:00:58 graingert has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
144 2013-04-04 01:03:49 tyn has joined
145 2013-04-04 01:04:12 <gmaxwell> "Oh, the smile just ment it had gas"
146 2013-04-04 01:06:11 basylib has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
147 2013-04-04 01:06:51 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
148 2013-04-04 01:07:23 i2pRelay has joined
149 2013-04-04 01:08:35 <EvilPete> Why does the official binaries of bitcoin-qt recommend 0.01 fee still when people have been talking about people offering way too much in the way of fees by default? http://imgur.com/gCL8BPF
150 2013-04-04 01:08:56 <Canar> My official binary suggests 0.0005...
151 2013-04-04 01:09:31 <jspilman> The default value of the field is 0.0005 but the text label still says 0.01
152 2013-04-04 01:09:32 <gmaxwell> EvilPete: Indeed, I had totally forgotten that text was there.
153 2013-04-04 01:09:35 <gmaxwell> Who reads the strings?!
154 2013-04-04 01:10:06 <SomeoneWeird> !
155 2013-04-04 01:10:07 <SomeoneWeird> lol
156 2013-04-04 01:10:10 <EvilPete> s/the strings//
157 2013-04-04 01:11:29 graingert_ has joined
158 2013-04-04 01:12:31 <Luke-Jr> lol
159 2013-04-04 01:12:37 graingert_ has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
160 2013-04-04 01:13:28 graingert_ has joined
161 2013-04-04 01:14:54 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
162 2013-04-04 01:15:04 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
163 2013-04-04 01:15:18 <Retik> Luke-Jr, you got a BFL asic shipped to you right? Is it the real deal or just publicity stunt?
164 2013-04-04 01:15:26 i2pRelay has joined
165 2013-04-04 01:15:50 graingert_ is now known as graingert
166 2013-04-04 01:15:59 <Luke-Jr> Retik: it's the real deal, but I've asked them to hold off physical shipping until the rest of my order is ready
167 2013-04-04 01:16:24 <Retik> lol
168 2013-04-04 01:16:29 <Luke-Jr> Retik: in the meantime, I'm setup with a Linux system there I have ssh/root on
169 2013-04-04 01:16:39 <Retik> cool
170 2013-04-04 01:16:51 <Luke-Jr> any more questions, #eligius cuz it's off topic here
171 2013-04-04 01:16:51 <Retik> they're still generally light on updates
172 2013-04-04 01:16:54 <Luke-Jr> or #bitcoin-mining
173 2013-04-04 01:17:01 mike has joined
174 2013-04-04 01:17:25 mike is now known as Guest64457
175 2013-04-04 01:17:56 <Guest64457> I just compiled and ran bitcoind -daemon --- how can I tell when my wallet is synchronized? (using ubuntu server)
176 2013-04-04 01:17:59 <AdamBLevine> Hey everybody, quick question - If the currency goes to 100,000 per BTC would moving the decimal place not increase the number of coins, relatively speaking?
177 2013-04-04 01:18:09 haqe17 has left ("vVVvV")
178 2013-04-04 01:18:38 <Luke-Jr> AdamBLevine: â¦
179 2013-04-04 01:18:41 <AdamBLevine> So 21 million becomes 210 million and .1btc becomes 1btc?
180 2013-04-04 01:18:45 <AdamBLevine> Is that not right?
181 2013-04-04 01:19:01 <sipa> well it will probably becomes 21 billion mBTC
182 2013-04-04 01:19:02 <Guest64457> how long does the non-gui client take to catch-up?
183 2013-04-04 01:19:08 <sipa> which is the same as 21 million BTC :)
184 2013-04-04 01:19:09 <Guest64457> (and how can I tell the status?)
185 2013-04-04 01:19:18 <AdamBLevine> From the end-users perspective
186 2013-04-04 01:19:27 <AdamBLevine> Do they deal with .0000000001 BTC?
187 2013-04-04 01:19:32 <sipa> Guest64457: the getinfo RPC call will tell you the number of blocks they have
188 2013-04-04 01:19:45 <sipa> AdamBLevine: there is no 0.000000001 BTC
189 2013-04-04 01:19:46 <Guest64457> perfect, thanks!
190 2013-04-04 01:20:02 Guest64457 has quit (Client Quit)
191 2013-04-04 01:20:11 <AdamBLevine> Fine, preceded by 7 zeros?
192 2013-04-04 01:20:14 <sipa> AdamBLevine: the basic unit is one satoshi (0.00000001 BTC), 1 100 millionth of BTC,
193 2013-04-04 01:20:37 <sipa> and you can give things another name, but i don't see how that makes a difference
194 2013-04-04 01:20:48 <AdamBLevine> I'm asking about the user experiance
195 2013-04-04 01:20:51 <sipa> the relative introduction of coins is still strictly defined by the protocol
196 2013-04-04 01:21:00 <sipa> well yes, but i don't see the point?
197 2013-04-04 01:21:11 <sipa> of course if you go deal with smaller subdivisions you have more of them...
198 2013-04-04 01:21:18 <AdamBLevine> If bitcoin is worth a crazy large amount each, will users be regularly transacting in 0.00000xxx?
199 2013-04-04 01:21:26 <sipa> probably
200 2013-04-04 01:21:29 <AdamBLevine> oh
201 2013-04-04 01:21:32 <AdamBLevine> Well I was confused
202 2013-04-04 01:21:33 <sipa> i don't know the future
203 2013-04-04 01:21:51 <AdamBLevine> I thought the plan was to keep the "1" whole number at something reasonble for normal transactions
204 2013-04-04 01:22:21 <AdamBLevine> Right, but you're working to make that future - I thought the plan was "move the decimal" on both sides of the equation to keep amounts reasonable
205 2013-04-04 01:22:23 <Luke-Jr> AdamBLevine: Bitcoin-Qt has supported mBTC and uBTC for a long time now
206 2013-04-04 01:22:33 <Luke-Jr> it's in the settings
207 2013-04-04 01:22:36 <AdamBLevine> Not talking about support
208 2013-04-04 01:22:42 <AdamBLevine> I'm talking about where the decimal shows up
209 2013-04-04 01:22:45 <AdamBLevine> :)
210 2013-04-04 01:22:48 <gmaxwell> There are some crazy people who'e promoted changing the scale of "BTC" but .. those people are crazy. If you want other numbers you can just switch units, e.g. to mBTC.
211 2013-04-04 01:22:49 <Luke-Jr> same thing
212 2013-04-04 01:22:56 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
213 2013-04-04 01:22:59 <gonffen> well... if you work in uBTC it changes where the decimal shows up by six places
214 2013-04-04 01:23:01 <AdamBLevine> Anyhow, i was clearly confused - How do you guys think people will conduct transactions when 1 bitcoin is 100,000?
215 2013-04-04 01:23:03 <EvilPete> The protocol is a 64 bit integer of satoshis, no? And we just divide by 100 million for presentation?
216 2013-04-04 01:23:11 <sipa> EvilPete: indeed
217 2013-04-04 01:23:13 <Luke-Jr> what gonffen and gmaxwell said +1
218 2013-04-04 01:23:28 i2pRelay has joined
219 2013-04-04 01:23:30 <Luke-Jr> AdamBLevine: they will configure their clients to use uBTC
220 2013-04-04 01:23:33 nym has joined
221 2013-04-04 01:23:37 <Luke-Jr> or more ideally, TBC
222 2013-04-04 01:23:41 MobPhone_ has joined
223 2013-04-04 01:23:41 novusordo is now known as buybuybuy
224 2013-04-04 01:23:42 <AdamBLevine> gmaxwell: So then we're talking about the same thing, just through different means - The intention is to not make users type in .00000021 to buy a hundred dollar item
225 2013-04-04 01:23:57 MobPhone has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
226 2013-04-04 01:24:02 <AdamBLevine> Luke-Jr: So you think this will be handled on the client side, and just displayed differently?
227 2013-04-04 01:24:04 <EvilPete> I have to note that the US general populace is tragically decimal ignorant...
228 2013-04-04 01:24:04 <Luke-Jr> AdamBLevine: they don't have to type that in today. they can configure their client to work with uBTC as-is
229 2013-04-04 01:24:11 <Luke-Jr> AdamBLevine: it already is
230 2013-04-04 01:24:18 <AdamBLevine> Oh
231 2013-04-04 01:24:20 <AdamBLevine> Well great :)
232 2013-04-04 01:24:22 <gmaxwell> AdamBLevine: right, they can just flip a switch, e.g. in bitcoin-qt.
233 2013-04-04 01:24:25 <Luke-Jr> EvilPete: depressing, isn't it?
234 2013-04-04 01:24:34 lodse has joined
235 2013-04-04 01:24:35 rynx has joined
236 2013-04-04 01:24:37 <graingert> Luke-Jr: only late adopters will want to move the decimal place
237 2013-04-04 01:24:43 <AdamBLevine> Well sweet, I'm going to go flip that switch and feel like I've got more than 25 BTC
238 2013-04-04 01:24:44 <EvilPete> Luke-Jr: I die a little each time I see fuel prices "3.89 9/10"
239 2013-04-04 01:24:50 <graingert> Luke-Jr: and I doubt late adopters will want to switch number system
240 2013-04-04 01:24:51 tyn has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
241 2013-04-04 01:25:04 <graingert> Luke-Jr: okay maybe not, with AdamBLevine
242 2013-04-04 01:25:10 <graingert> I stand corrected
243 2013-04-04 01:25:10 <Luke-Jr> EvilPete: I have a small hope that it's because of how retarded the decimal system is, and that when society switches to a sane radix, things will just fall into place
244 2013-04-04 01:25:24 <AdamBLevine> I'm an early adopter, just not overly technical
245 2013-04-04 01:25:24 <sipa> hahaha :D
246 2013-04-04 01:25:28 <gmaxwell> lol church of the tonal time.
247 2013-04-04 01:25:31 <AdamBLevine> been in for two years, sold most at 35
248 2013-04-04 01:25:34 <AdamBLevine> :)
249 2013-04-04 01:25:49 <EvilPete> Luke-Jr: clearly, powers of 2 is working better for people :)
250 2013-04-04 01:25:51 <gmaxwell> This is how we punish people for going on about moving around decimal points, luke lectures you on tonal.
251 2013-04-04 01:26:05 <Luke-Jr> EvilPete: exactly
252 2013-04-04 01:26:16 <AdamBLevine> Luke-Jr - Are you with BitcoinMagazine?
253 2013-04-04 01:26:27 <graingert> AdamBLevine: he's a miner
254 2013-04-04 01:26:33 <Luke-Jr> AdamBLevine: I try to help them keep their articles factually accurate in my spare time
255 2013-04-04 01:26:39 <AdamBLevine> graingert: got it
256 2013-04-04 01:26:50 <Luke-Jr> I'm also a miner and developer and I wonder what else
257 2013-04-04 01:26:54 <AdamBLevine> Luke-Jr: Thought I'd seen you around, and I know you've helped me with articles in the past
258 2013-04-04 01:26:56 <Luke-Jr> apparently a BFL shill too
259 2013-04-04 01:26:59 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: Troll.
260 2013-04-04 01:27:00 <EvilPete> AdamBLevine: Luke-Jr is a trouble-maker first, and a miner/developer/promoter seconds :)
261 2013-04-04 01:27:04 <graingert> gmaxwell: :p
262 2013-04-04 01:27:11 <AdamBLevine> EvilPete: I'll keep that in mind
263 2013-04-04 01:27:15 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I only troll trolls though!
264 2013-04-04 01:27:22 <graingert> Luke-Jr: still a troll
265 2013-04-04 01:27:29 setkeh has joined
266 2013-04-04 01:27:31 <sipa> trolling is idempotent, not nilpotent!
267 2013-04-04 01:27:42 petertodd has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
268 2013-04-04 01:27:43 <graingert> sipa: it's all about OWL-DL
269 2013-04-04 01:28:07 <sipa> graingert: which is?
270 2013-04-04 01:28:11 <graingert> !google OWL-DL
271 2013-04-04 01:28:12 <gribble> Web Ontology Language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Ontology_Language>; OWL Web Ontology Language Guide: <http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-guide/>; Pellet: A Practical OWL-DL Reasoner: <http://pellet.owldl.com/papers/sirin05pellet.pdf>
272 2013-04-04 01:28:22 <graingert> sipa: a thing for webz
273 2013-04-04 01:28:32 <EvilPete> Luke-Jr has no problem with pointing out when the emperor has no clothes.. eg: the recent thread on the dangers of large mining pools versus getblocktemplate
274 2013-04-04 01:28:33 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: can you believe that WaPo guy wanted to know more about tonal?
275 2013-04-04 01:28:39 <gmaxwell> Sounds like semantic wank. :P
276 2013-04-04 01:28:42 <Luke-Jr> maybe it was the shock of me not being an anarchist wacko
277 2013-04-04 01:28:44 <graingert> sipa: it's for writing things like Luke-Jr trolls trolls
278 2013-04-04 01:28:53 <graingert> gmaxwell: it's that yes
279 2013-04-04 01:29:07 <graingert> gmaxwell: it's so close to being useful
280 2013-04-04 01:29:12 LainZ has joined
281 2013-04-04 01:30:30 <graingert> !ticker
282 2013-04-04 01:30:31 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 123.30000, Best ask: 124.99000, Bid-ask spread: 1.69000, Last trade: 124.99000, 24 hour volume: 154543.03793620, 24 hour low: 110.00000, 24 hour high: 147.00000, 24 hour vwap: 128.14444
283 2013-04-04 01:30:41 <gmaxwell> god no, not in here too
284 2013-04-04 01:30:45 <graingert> 123!
285 2013-04-04 01:30:46 <graingert> woo
286 2013-04-04 01:30:57 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
287 2013-04-04 01:31:01 graingert has joined
288 2013-04-04 01:31:02 <Luke-Jr> lol
289 2013-04-04 01:31:02 <graingert> gmaxwell: I thought I'd lost connection
290 2013-04-04 01:31:12 <graingert> D:
291 2013-04-04 01:31:27 <graingert> gmaxwell: disable that bot command in this channel?
292 2013-04-04 01:31:29 i2pRelay has joined
293 2013-04-04 01:31:32 mologie has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
294 2013-04-04 01:31:47 <gmaxwell> graingert: you are a fair weather friend to bitcoin. My logs indicate that you only show up during bubbles! :P
295 2013-04-04 01:32:00 <Luke-Jr> lol
296 2013-04-04 01:32:10 <graingert> gmaxwell: bubble occur whenever there are holidays
297 2013-04-04 01:32:17 <graingert> gmaxwell: at my university
298 2013-04-04 01:32:23 <graingert> occurs*
299 2013-04-04 01:32:23 <Luke-Jr> that's interesting
300 2013-04-04 01:32:42 BCB is now known as CoverYourShorts
301 2013-04-04 01:32:49 * gmaxwell offers for sale graingert holiday schedule, 10 BTC
302 2013-04-04 01:32:50 <graingert> you should get a copy of my term times, Luke-Jr
303 2013-04-04 01:32:54 nova907767 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
304 2013-04-04 01:33:23 <graingert> gmaxwell: not the channel for that, go to #bitcoin-otc
305 2013-04-04 01:33:51 <Luke-Jr> graingert: actually, CAN we get a copy of that? <.<
306 2013-04-04 01:34:23 <graingert> Luke-Jr: yes, go to graingert.co.uk/cv.html and discover my degree course
307 2013-04-04 01:34:37 <graingert> then google my university and "term times"
308 2013-04-04 01:34:57 <Luke-Jr> graingert: too much effort
309 2013-04-04 01:34:59 realazthat has joined
310 2013-04-04 01:35:12 <graingert> Luke-Jr: it's worth 10BTC apprarantly
311 2013-04-04 01:35:14 <graingert> sigh
312 2013-04-04 01:35:23 <graingert> apparently
313 2013-04-04 01:35:46 macboz has joined
314 2013-04-04 01:36:08 <Luke-Jr> graingert: if I agreed, I'd be talking to gmaxwell
315 2013-04-04 01:36:34 <graingert> hmm
316 2013-04-04 01:37:33 ProfMac has joined
317 2013-04-04 01:37:35 CoverYourShorts is now known as BCB
318 2013-04-04 01:37:52 Jere_Jones has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
319 2013-04-04 01:38:04 MWNinja has joined
320 2013-04-04 01:38:54 kalleboo has joined
321 2013-04-04 01:38:58 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
322 2013-04-04 01:39:06 jaequery has joined
323 2013-04-04 01:39:08 Detritus has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
324 2013-04-04 01:39:12 jaequery has quit (Client Quit)
325 2013-04-04 01:39:14 metabyte has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
326 2013-04-04 01:39:30 i2pRelay has joined
327 2013-04-04 01:41:21 jaequery has joined
328 2013-04-04 01:41:34 Detritus has joined
329 2013-04-04 01:41:58 zboz has joined
330 2013-04-04 01:42:21 jaequery has quit (Client Quit)
331 2013-04-04 01:43:35 nimdAHK has joined
332 2013-04-04 01:45:04 ymirhotfoot has joined
333 2013-04-04 01:46:09 techlife has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
334 2013-04-04 01:46:13 Tantadruj has quit (Quit: DoubleRecall Turns Paywalls Into Advertising Dollars - NYTimes.com http://nyti.ms/odHOgy)
335 2013-04-04 01:46:59 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
336 2013-04-04 01:47:31 i2pRelay has joined
337 2013-04-04 01:47:57 nova90 has joined
338 2013-04-04 01:48:59 <Uisgdlyast> so are a lot of people going to be bidding on asics now with this bubble, is it a good idea to buy one?
339 2013-04-04 01:50:31 circle has joined
340 2013-04-04 01:50:49 rynx has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
341 2013-04-04 01:50:55 MrTiggr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
342 2013-04-04 01:51:03 <ymirhotfoot> How many asic mining machines are working on the blockchain now?
343 2013-04-04 01:51:05 lodse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
344 2013-04-04 01:51:09 jspilman has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
345 2013-04-04 01:51:14 <BlueMatt> 42
346 2013-04-04 01:51:21 <ymirhotfoot> How many companies are actually selling asic mining machines?
347 2013-04-04 01:51:27 <BlueMatt> 43
348 2013-04-04 01:51:45 <gmaxwell> Not a topic for #bitcoin-dev
349 2013-04-04 01:51:48 <Uisgdlyast> all the ones I see are for "when it comes out"
350 2013-04-04 01:51:54 <ymirhotfoot> How many asic mining machines are being built/in queue to be built right now?
351 2013-04-04 01:51:57 <gmaxwell> Try #bitcoin or #bitcoin-mining
352 2013-04-04 01:52:07 <ymirhotfoot> Thanks, gmaxwell!
353 2013-04-04 01:52:10 buybuybuy is now known as novusordo
354 2013-04-04 01:52:12 <Uisgdlyast> didnt know about the mining one, sry
355 2013-04-04 01:52:22 <ymirhotfoot> Ignore please last questions from me.
356 2013-04-04 01:52:39 <gmaxwell> No problem, I'm good at ignoring.
357 2013-04-04 01:53:00 <ymirhotfoot> ;)
358 2013-04-04 01:53:13 nova90 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
359 2013-04-04 01:53:19 techlife has joined
360 2013-04-04 01:53:21 techlife has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
361 2013-04-04 01:53:23 rynx has joined
362 2013-04-04 01:54:02 techlife has joined
363 2013-04-04 01:54:04 techlife has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
364 2013-04-04 01:54:39 techlife has joined
365 2013-04-04 01:54:40 techlife has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
366 2013-04-04 01:55:01 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
367 2013-04-04 01:55:08 <sipa> ;;later tell devrandom ./bin/gbuild:21:in `system!': failed to run on-target true (RuntimeError)
368 2013-04-04 01:55:08 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
369 2013-04-04 01:55:16 techlife has joined
370 2013-04-04 01:55:17 techlife has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
371 2013-04-04 01:55:33 i2pRelay has joined
372 2013-04-04 01:55:39 <ymirhotfoot> More statistics questions, almost on topic:
373 2013-04-04 01:55:55 techlife has joined
374 2013-04-04 01:55:56 mologie has joined
375 2013-04-04 01:56:27 jaequery has joined
376 2013-04-04 01:56:44 MobiusL is now known as LinuxKernel
377 2013-04-04 01:57:03 owowo is now known as Luke-Sr
378 2013-04-04 01:57:40 <ymirhotfoot> How many different programs which actually fulfill the Bitcoin protocol are on the Bitcoin network today?
379 2013-04-04 01:57:54 rynx has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
380 2013-04-04 01:58:03 <ymirhotfoot> What is the distribution?
381 2013-04-04 01:58:35 <realazthat> sipa: ping
382 2013-04-04 01:58:39 AlbertTuring has joined
383 2013-04-04 01:58:44 <sipa> are you talking about full nodes, or also SPV systems, or even clients that connect through a central server
384 2013-04-04 01:58:48 <sipa> realazthat: right right!
385 2013-04-04 01:58:58 <realazthat> sipa: I am about to push
386 2013-04-04 01:59:07 <sipa> link?
387 2013-04-04 01:59:17 LinuxKernel is now known as MobiusL
388 2013-04-04 01:59:46 MrTiggr has joined
389 2013-04-04 01:59:55 <ymirhotfoot> Full nodes, and also light nodes, such as Satoshi mentioned, I am not sure about the classifiaction "clients that connect through a central server".
390 2013-04-04 02:00:04 D34TH has quit (Quit: Leaving)
391 2013-04-04 02:00:07 ActiveMember has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
392 2013-04-04 02:00:35 jaequery has quit (Client Quit)
393 2013-04-04 02:01:04 <ymirhotfoot> SPV clients, I think, would qualify as light clients.
394 2013-04-04 02:01:08 <sipa> the reference client is probably by far the most common full node (with versions between 0.3.something and 0.8.1 present)
395 2013-04-04 02:01:28 zboz has quit ()
396 2013-04-04 02:01:38 <EvilPete> question: a brand new client downloading the chain for the first time.. is it expected that it fetches them out of order? and *very* out of order?
397 2013-04-04 02:01:42 <sipa> there are others, but i don't know how many are deployed; like bitsofproof, BitcoinJ with full validation, ...
398 2013-04-04 02:01:50 <sipa> EvilPete: in order, mostly
399 2013-04-04 02:02:01 <ymirhotfoot> Thanks, sipa!
400 2013-04-04 02:02:02 <EvilPete> sipa: eg: SetBestChain: new best=00000000068a3b231deb0cac2d79d7db9b916af9a5a6f8247245bf1e8d70a7ad height=55020 work=573035344532533 tx=59905 date=2010-05-08 15:21:09
401 2013-04-04 02:02:18 <EvilPete> and then received block 00000000000003cf5ab2942dfd127a28554934ac40e3a995d57414a70e1f1de8
402 2013-04-04 02:02:34 <sipa> ok?
403 2013-04-04 02:02:51 <EvilPete> look at the prefix..
404 2013-04-04 02:03:01 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
405 2013-04-04 02:03:02 <EvilPete> boatloads and boatloads of ProcessBlock: ORPHAN BLOCK, prev=0000000000000322cc614a857bcf96b7cb270ca326424aca9ec7138bd87518f6
406 2013-04-04 02:03:08 tigger0 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
407 2013-04-04 02:03:09 <realazthat> sipa: https://github.com/realazthat/overblock
408 2013-04-04 02:03:11 <ymirhotfoot> Yes, thank you!
409 2013-04-04 02:03:26 <sipa> EvilPete: it happens yes, when the block sync mechanism gets confused
410 2013-04-04 02:03:33 <sipa> EvilPete: don't worry, it'll pick up again
411 2013-04-04 02:03:33 i2pRelay has joined
412 2013-04-04 02:04:03 <sipa> EvilPete: it means it missed one, and somehow the peer it asked for that missing one isn't responding or gone
413 2013-04-04 02:05:13 <EvilPete> sipa: its more than just one.. it is interleaving blocks with 9 zeros prefix and 13 zeroes.. ie: 2010 vintage and very recent
414 2013-04-04 02:05:26 <sipa> EvilPete: yes
415 2013-04-04 02:05:37 <sipa> EvilPete: we know the block sync mechanism is crappy
416 2013-04-04 02:05:44 <gmaxwell> EvilPete: a new block happens on the network and then it starts trying to fetch backwards from it.
417 2013-04-04 02:05:52 <gmaxwell> EvilPete: the behavior here is well understood.
418 2013-04-04 02:06:20 <sipa> ymirhotfoot: SPV is what satoshi described in his paper, but those don't actively participate in the network (they don't connect to eachother, only to full nodes, and do not relay transactions or blocks)
419 2013-04-04 02:06:35 <EvilPete> out of curiosity, is it keeping them to make a complete chain when all the parts are there? or discard and re-download later?
420 2013-04-04 02:06:45 mintmoney has quit (Quit: Leaving)
421 2013-04-04 02:06:50 <sipa> it keeps them in RAM, i think
422 2013-04-04 02:06:56 <graingert> realazthat: the readme doesn't really say what it is
423 2013-04-04 02:07:12 <realazthat> graingert: true :P
424 2013-04-04 02:07:29 <gmaxwell> sipa: hm, point there.. yea orphan blocks are in ram. This might actually explain some reports of high memory usage during IBD that didn't seem super reliably reproducable.
425 2013-04-04 02:07:45 <realazthat> graingert: its a locally-run-focused web application like block explorer
426 2013-04-04 02:08:00 <graingert> realazthat: https://github.com/realazthat/overblock/issues/1
427 2013-04-04 02:08:49 <BlueMatt> graingert: thank you
428 2013-04-04 02:09:14 Luke-Sr is now known as owowodopolous
429 2013-04-04 02:09:28 <graingert> BlueMatt?
430 2013-04-04 02:09:53 <BlueMatt> for asking realazthat what it is
431 2013-04-04 02:09:56 Liquid3xB has quit (Quit: Leaving)
432 2013-04-04 02:09:58 <graingert> oh
433 2013-04-04 02:10:11 XertroV has joined
434 2013-04-04 02:10:12 Liquid3xB has joined
435 2013-04-04 02:10:53 <sipa> realazthat: that is by far the most extensive error page i've ever seen...
436 2013-04-04 02:11:03 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
437 2013-04-04 02:11:07 Garr255 has joined
438 2013-04-04 02:11:07 Garr255 has quit (Changing host)
439 2013-04-04 02:11:07 Garr255 has joined
440 2013-04-04 02:11:17 owowodopolous is now known as osama
441 2013-04-04 02:11:21 osama is now known as owowodopolous
442 2013-04-04 02:11:25 <sipa> o
443 2013-04-04 02:11:30 <sipa> i'll make a screenshot
444 2013-04-04 02:11:35 i2pRelay has joined
445 2013-04-04 02:12:50 <graingert> owowodopolous: nick spam?
446 2013-04-04 02:12:54 * gmaxwell looks for a screenshot
447 2013-04-04 02:14:41 <owowodopolous> no! I'm not here, ignore me.
448 2013-04-04 02:14:50 <sipa> realazthat: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/overblock.png
449 2013-04-04 02:14:59 normanrichards has joined
450 2013-04-04 02:15:24 <realazthat> sipa: lol its a printout of the exception
451 2013-04-04 02:15:26 <ymirhotfoot> sipa: ad SPV, yes, I get that point, though I do not yet have clear picture of what is going on with whole blockchain/network today; I may not soon get time to try to understand it better.
452 2013-04-04 02:15:35 <realazthat> sipa: kk, I'll look into it
453 2013-04-04 02:16:04 <BlueMatt> heh, why are we forcing leveldb optimizations off when building bitcoin-qt
454 2013-04-04 02:16:07 nova90 has joined
455 2013-04-04 02:16:14 <BlueMatt> (ie compiling with default -O)
456 2013-04-04 02:16:27 <sipa> BlueMatt: :o
457 2013-04-04 02:16:41 jgarzik has joined
458 2013-04-04 02:16:51 <BlueMatt> we call with OPT="..." but no -O in there, and that overrides leveldb's -O
459 2013-04-04 02:16:57 jgarzik has quit (Changing host)
460 2013-04-04 02:16:57 jgarzik has joined
461 2013-04-04 02:17:11 <sipa> BlueMatt: pullreq away :)
462 2013-04-04 02:17:22 <gmaxwell> "I wondered why it compiled so fast"
463 2013-04-04 02:18:18 <Diablo-D3> oh jesus, bitcoin can be even faster?
464 2013-04-04 02:18:26 * Diablo-D3 needs to buy an ssd to keep up
465 2013-04-04 02:18:31 <BlueMatt> no, if you are getting the error you should see #warnings
466 2013-04-04 02:18:40 <BlueMatt> I think its my qt, blame arch
467 2013-04-04 02:19:06 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
468 2013-04-04 02:19:38 i2pRelay has joined
469 2013-04-04 02:20:11 Jere_Jones has joined
470 2013-04-04 02:20:17 <BlueMatt> ooooo, /me's gcc is now printing the line with a ^ all kinds of clang-style
471 2013-04-04 02:20:22 <sipa> realazthat: fixed it :)
472 2013-04-04 02:21:14 nova90 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
473 2013-04-04 02:22:03 moe1111 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
474 2013-04-04 02:22:13 <realazthat> sipa: so did I haha
475 2013-04-04 02:22:19 moe1111 has joined
476 2013-04-04 02:22:27 <realazthat> but i can't test it anymore
477 2013-04-04 02:22:36 <realazthat> my internet is crazy
478 2013-04-04 02:22:56 <realazthat> when I am connected, I can't connect to my lan
479 2013-04-04 02:23:03 <realazthat> bitcoind is on another machine
480 2013-04-04 02:23:04 <sipa> realazthat: nice work! the layout can use some tweaking, but functionality-wise it looks very good
481 2013-04-04 02:23:14 MrTiggr has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
482 2013-04-04 02:23:32 <realazthat> sipa: I was using chrome
483 2013-04-04 02:23:48 <gmaxwell> sipa: I wann see the actual program. :P
484 2013-04-04 02:24:14 <sipa> gmaxwell: run it?
485 2013-04-04 02:25:34 <sam> BlueMatt: is that 4.8?
486 2013-04-04 02:25:43 <BlueMatt> sam yes
487 2013-04-04 02:26:02 <gmaxwell> realazthat: you can read ~/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf (and similar on windows) if its readable and use that to get the rpc info
488 2013-04-04 02:26:09 SvenDiagram has quit (Quit: SvenDiagram)
489 2013-04-04 02:26:21 quaz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
490 2013-04-04 02:26:26 <btcfaucet> gmaxwell: i'd like to trouble you with this if you have a sec... https://bitbargain.co.uk/invalids.txt
491 2013-04-04 02:26:46 <btcfaucet> txid cannot be found on blockchain.info... user is asking if it's normal to take 24 hours for a trx
492 2013-04-04 02:27:07 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
493 2013-04-04 02:27:17 graingert has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
494 2013-04-04 02:27:30 wereHams1er has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
495 2013-04-04 02:27:39 i2pRelay has joined
496 2013-04-04 02:27:50 <btcfaucet> i guess the q is, if you have any idea if this is normal or suggestion on how to fix it
497 2013-04-04 02:28:00 [7] has quit (Disconnected by services)
498 2013-04-04 02:28:03 <gmaxwell> btcfaucet: you could getrawtransaction <id> 1 them and see if their parents (vin section) are on blockchain.info
499 2013-04-04 02:28:09 TheSeven has joined
500 2013-04-04 02:28:24 <btcfaucet> thanks!
501 2013-04-04 02:28:31 <gmaxwell> btcfaucet: most likely they are transactions which spent doublespent transactions. ... or blockchain.info is just being dumb.
502 2013-04-04 02:28:37 wereHamster has joined
503 2013-04-04 02:28:40 ActiveMember has joined
504 2013-04-04 02:29:49 Bjander has joined
505 2013-04-04 02:30:18 Lexx_ has joined
506 2013-04-04 02:30:40 poggy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
507 2013-04-04 02:30:46 <btcfaucet> oh... that's not the output i expected from getrawtransactions :)
508 2013-04-04 02:31:14 <btcfaucet> oh, verbose.
509 2013-04-04 02:31:34 <gmaxwell> yea, you need the 1.
510 2013-04-04 02:31:41 <Bjander> Btcfaucet do you run the google appengine faucet?
511 2013-04-04 02:31:50 <btcfaucet> no
512 2013-04-04 02:32:31 mike has joined
513 2013-04-04 02:32:40 <Bjander> A diffetent one?
514 2013-04-04 02:32:50 <btcfaucet> yes, my nick dot com
515 2013-04-04 02:32:55 mike is now known as Guest38540
516 2013-04-04 02:33:14 <realazthat> gmaxwell: oh ok, I'll look into that
517 2013-04-04 02:33:22 <Guest38540> How is this possible? "" : -0.02500000,
518 2013-04-04 02:33:31 <Guest38540> thats the output from listaccounts
519 2013-04-04 02:33:31 <realazthat> gmaxwell: also though, my bitcoind is remote, so it wasn't applicable to me haha
520 2013-04-04 02:33:33 <gmaxwell> realazthat: VERY COOL
521 2013-04-04 02:33:36 <sipa> realazthat: also, with gettxout you can check whether an output is already spent or not
522 2013-04-04 02:33:53 <sipa> realazthat: and perhaps getrawmempool can be used to get a list of unconfirmed transactions
523 2013-04-04 02:33:54 <realazthat> sipa: oh ok, I'll put that tidbit in
524 2013-04-04 02:34:01 <sipa> realazthat: (just tips! i really like it already)
525 2013-04-04 02:34:05 Lexx__ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
526 2013-04-04 02:34:11 <gmaxwell> realazthat: you might want to add some caching inside your program to make fewer requests..
527 2013-04-04 02:34:23 <realazthat> sipa: yeah cool, I was gonna ask you for further direction
528 2013-04-04 02:34:51 <realazthat> gmaxwell: yeah, I was thinking of that. its hard to gauge the local speed; I was running it over a lan
529 2013-04-04 02:34:57 <realazthat> (bitcoind was on another machine)
530 2013-04-04 02:35:04 <sipa> i'm running it here _during_ reindex
531 2013-04-04 02:35:09 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
532 2013-04-04 02:35:15 <sipa> and the full details version takes ~seconds, ok
533 2013-04-04 02:35:27 <gmaxwell> sipa: does this make you want to add an addridx=1? :P
534 2013-04-04 02:35:36 <sipa> gmaxwell: kinda :)
535 2013-04-04 02:35:41 i2pRelay has joined
536 2013-04-04 02:35:48 Guest38540 has quit (Client Quit)
537 2013-04-04 02:36:18 <gmaxwell> realazthat: it would be nice if the formatting kept the decimal place in the same horizontal position for values... but thats really a polishing thing that doesn't need to happen now.
538 2013-04-04 02:36:26 sagax_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
539 2013-04-04 02:36:38 viperhr1 has joined
540 2013-04-04 02:36:53 <realazthat> gmaxwell: so always display 8 pts?
541 2013-04-04 02:37:39 <gmaxwell> My preference is that values and hashes should be monospace. But to actually get the decimal values to line up you'd right justify and always display 8 digits after the dot with monospace type.
542 2013-04-04 02:38:04 sagax_ has joined
543 2013-04-04 02:38:05 <realazthat> yeah I can do that
544 2013-04-04 02:38:12 <sipa> you can make the color of the trailing zeroes = background color
545 2013-04-04 02:38:28 <realazthat> haha
546 2013-04-04 02:38:34 <gmaxwell> Indeed.
547 2013-04-04 02:38:36 <sipa> i'm serious
548 2013-04-04 02:38:49 viperhr has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
549 2013-04-04 02:40:01 <deadweasel> also go 32 digits and hide trailing zeroes... just in case you need them later...
550 2013-04-04 02:40:03 quaz has joined
551 2013-04-04 02:40:13 <deadweasel> :)
552 2013-04-04 02:40:27 <Luke-Jr> I thought CSS had a style to line up the ones?
553 2013-04-04 02:40:43 <gmaxwell> deadweasel: thats silly. :P
554 2013-04-04 02:41:04 <realazthat> deadweasel: its just for display
555 2013-04-04 02:41:55 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
556 2013-04-04 02:42:08 <deadweasel> just in case.. the bitcoin monitor chrome ext didn't have enough spaces and recently has been unusable.
557 2013-04-04 02:42:08 Bjander has joined
558 2013-04-04 02:43:12 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
559 2013-04-04 02:43:42 jaequery has joined
560 2013-04-04 02:43:44 i2pRelay has joined
561 2013-04-04 02:43:54 witwit has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
562 2013-04-04 02:43:54 nova90 has joined
563 2013-04-04 02:44:35 petertodd has joined
564 2013-04-04 02:46:37 jaequery has quit (Client Quit)
565 2013-04-04 02:48:06 has quit (_STIMPY_|!~doddy@5ac82b64.bb.sky.com|Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The professional IRC Client :D)
566 2013-04-04 02:49:10 RBecker is now known as rbecker
567 2013-04-04 02:49:34 nova90 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
568 2013-04-04 02:49:39 nimdAHK has quit (Quit: I know my shit)
569 2013-04-04 02:49:58 <sipa> doh... i thought this was about bitcoin :P http://games.slashdot.org/story/13/04/03/2137205/mining-companies-borrow-from-gamers-physics-engines
570 2013-04-04 02:50:29 <Luke-Jr> hah
571 2013-04-04 02:51:13 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
572 2013-04-04 02:51:45 i2pRelay has joined
573 2013-04-04 02:52:08 petertodd has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
574 2013-04-04 02:52:32 brson has quit (Quit: leaving)
575 2013-04-04 02:53:01 <k9quaint> silly sipa, physics engines are for bhp billiton
576 2013-04-04 02:53:02 qwertyoruiop is now known as zz_qwertyoruiop
577 2013-04-04 02:54:33 fiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
578 2013-04-04 02:56:56 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
579 2013-04-04 02:57:10 fiesh has joined
580 2013-04-04 02:57:10 Bjander has joined
581 2013-04-04 02:57:41 nova90 has joined
582 2013-04-04 02:58:02 Ogig has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
583 2013-04-04 02:59:05 Guest44441 has joined
584 2013-04-04 02:59:14 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
585 2013-04-04 02:59:18 MrTiggr has joined
586 2013-04-04 02:59:40 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
587 2013-04-04 02:59:47 i2pRelay has joined
588 2013-04-04 02:59:55 Bjander has joined
589 2013-04-04 03:00:53 XertroV has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
590 2013-04-04 03:01:11 MrTiggr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
591 2013-04-04 03:01:13 daughterly has joined
592 2013-04-04 03:02:19 BCB has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
593 2013-04-04 03:02:49 ayalan has joined
594 2013-04-04 03:03:33 petertodd has joined
595 2013-04-04 03:03:48 johnsoft1 has joined
596 2013-04-04 03:04:34 nova90 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
597 2013-04-04 03:05:45 <BlueMatt> it may not just be my qt, it is my gcc that is #warning me...someone else wanna check if bitcoin-qt actually builds leveldb with -O2 or not?
598 2013-04-04 03:05:49 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
599 2013-04-04 03:05:54 <BlueMatt> also https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2454
600 2013-04-04 03:07:17 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
601 2013-04-04 03:07:49 i2pRelay has joined
602 2013-04-04 03:08:58 petercommand has joined
603 2013-04-04 03:09:55 vigilyn has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
604 2013-04-04 03:09:56 vigilyn2 has joined
605 2013-04-04 03:10:36 XertroV has joined
606 2013-04-04 03:11:54 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
607 2013-04-04 03:12:11 Bjander has joined
608 2013-04-04 03:13:36 PovAddict has joined
609 2013-04-04 03:13:51 <PovAddict> hi
610 2013-04-04 03:14:33 <PovAddict> afaik the client stores the blockchain, and separately a database used as an index to the raw blockchain files, right?
611 2013-04-04 03:14:53 <BlueMatt> yes
612 2013-04-04 03:14:55 <gmaxwell> PovAddict: What are you trying to accomplish?
613 2013-04-04 03:15:06 <PovAddict> gmaxwell: knowledge
614 2013-04-04 03:15:18 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
615 2013-04-04 03:15:51 i2pRelay has joined
616 2013-04-04 03:15:52 Goonie_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
617 2013-04-04 03:15:54 <PovAddict> I upgraded from a 0.7.1 I hadn't run in months to 0.8.1, and it spent a while 'reindexing the blockchain'
618 2013-04-04 03:16:07 <BlueMatt> rewritten db
619 2013-04-04 03:16:35 <PovAddict> so naturally I immediately took my curiosity to the contents of ~/.bitcoin :)
620 2013-04-04 03:16:52 Guest44441 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
621 2013-04-04 03:18:14 <PovAddict> is bitcoin-qt basically bitcoind + a GUI, or are the guts of bitcoin-qt different?
622 2013-04-04 03:18:26 <BlueMatt> same
623 2013-04-04 03:19:04 Brizzo has joined
624 2013-04-04 03:19:24 newbie has joined
625 2013-04-04 03:19:45 <PovAddict> okay, so when I started bitcoin-qt 0.8.1 for the first time, it went through the entire blockchain and generated a new LevelDB-based index
626 2013-04-04 03:19:47 newbie is now known as Guest6641
627 2013-04-04 03:20:08 <PovAddict> does that mean ~/.bitcoin/blkindex.dat is now useless?
628 2013-04-04 03:20:25 <jgarzik> [ANN Mt.Gox] Itâs been an epic few days: What happened? - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=166578.0
629 2013-04-04 03:21:33 <BlueMatt> PovAddict: yes, see-also: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/contrib/tidy_datadir.sh
630 2013-04-04 03:21:50 systemParanoid has joined
631 2013-04-04 03:22:07 <PovAddict> ooh
632 2013-04-04 03:22:21 * PovAddict makes two backups and tries that
633 2013-04-04 03:23:05 ActiveMember has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
634 2013-04-04 03:23:22 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
635 2013-04-04 03:23:55 i2pRelay has joined
636 2013-04-04 03:25:23 polrpaul has quit (Quit: Page closed)
637 2013-04-04 03:26:55 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
638 2013-04-04 03:26:58 newbie39 has joined
639 2013-04-04 03:27:09 Bjander has joined
640 2013-04-04 03:27:32 TriNitroToluene has joined
641 2013-04-04 03:28:45 blinky has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
642 2013-04-04 03:29:20 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
643 2013-04-04 03:29:33 Bjander has joined
644 2013-04-04 03:29:43 <PovAddict> BlueMatt: that worked nicely
645 2013-04-04 03:31:00 <PovAddict> I see that blk00000.dat and blk00001.dat in ~/.bitcoin/blocks are very large, while the rest are 128MB, my guess is that the old client created a new block file after 2GB and the new one at 128MB
646 2013-04-04 03:31:11 <gmaxwell> PovAddict: correct.
647 2013-04-04 03:31:23 <PovAddict> is it a problem (eg. performance) for those first ones to remain huge?
648 2013-04-04 03:31:26 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
649 2013-04-04 03:31:57 nova90 has joined
650 2013-04-04 03:31:59 i2pRelay has joined
651 2013-04-04 03:32:00 blinky has joined
652 2013-04-04 03:32:06 Cryo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
653 2013-04-04 03:32:08 <gmaxwell> PovAddict: no. Not currently. We switched to the smaller ones because larger ones don't really help, and if we want to support nodes forgetting old blocks later smaller ones are easier to rewrite to remove blocks.
654 2013-04-04 03:33:55 [\\\] is now known as [III]
655 2013-04-04 03:34:47 ZeroIce has joined
656 2013-04-04 03:36:20 polaman has joined
657 2013-04-04 03:36:42 Ashaman has joined
658 2013-04-04 03:37:01 [III] is now known as [\\\]
659 2013-04-04 03:37:13 <PovAddict> BlueMatt: that script saved me 1.2GB, thanks :)
660 2013-04-04 03:37:34 <BlueMatt> I didnt write it
661 2013-04-04 03:37:52 <PovAddict> thanks for the link :)
662 2013-04-04 03:37:54 <PovAddict> heh
663 2013-04-04 03:38:39 XertroV has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
664 2013-04-04 03:38:47 [\\\] is now known as [\\\\\\\\\\\\\\]
665 2013-04-04 03:39:24 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
666 2013-04-04 03:39:56 i2pRelay has joined
667 2013-04-04 03:40:18 mologie has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
668 2013-04-04 03:40:26 nova90 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
669 2013-04-04 03:40:49 [\\\\\\\\\\\\\\] is now known as [\][\][\]
670 2013-04-04 03:40:55 [\][\][\] is now known as [\\\]
671 2013-04-04 03:43:03 <PovAddict> "The coinbase transaction in block zero cannot be spent" does that mean "satoshi can't spend the 50BTC he mined for the genesis block"?
672 2013-04-04 03:43:22 <lianj> yes
673 2013-04-04 03:43:32 rynx has joined
674 2013-04-04 03:43:55 blehtm has joined
675 2013-04-04 03:43:58 <PovAddict> ok, that means I understood the previous paragraphs properly too :)
676 2013-04-04 03:44:34 eoss has joined
677 2013-04-04 03:44:48 <blehtm> Does anyone know of a good Python interface for MtGox?
678 2013-04-04 03:45:41 Tantadruj has joined
679 2013-04-04 03:47:25 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
680 2013-04-04 03:47:57 ayalan has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
681 2013-04-04 03:47:57 i2pRelay has joined
682 2013-04-04 03:50:59 nova90 has joined
683 2013-04-04 03:52:45 quaz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
684 2013-04-04 03:53:03 fishfishclone has joined
685 2013-04-04 03:54:29 <ymirhotfoot> /quit
686 2013-04-04 03:55:07 ymirhotfoot has quit (Quit: #bitcoin)
687 2013-04-04 03:55:26 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
688 2013-04-04 03:55:34 mologie has joined
689 2013-04-04 03:55:50 rynx has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
690 2013-04-04 03:55:58 i2pRelay has joined
691 2013-04-04 03:56:21 fishfish has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
692 2013-04-04 03:56:54 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
693 2013-04-04 03:57:11 Bjander has joined
694 2013-04-04 03:58:02 sydna has joined
695 2013-04-04 03:58:15 bolapara_ has joined
696 2013-04-04 03:58:38 nova90 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
697 2013-04-04 03:58:51 systemParanoid has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
698 2013-04-04 03:59:29 Phraust has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
699 2013-04-04 03:59:44 Phraust has joined
700 2013-04-04 03:59:51 circle has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
701 2013-04-04 04:03:28 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
702 2013-04-04 04:03:38 KoSoVaR has joined
703 2013-04-04 04:03:45 realazthat has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
704 2013-04-04 04:04:00 i2pRelay has joined
705 2013-04-04 04:04:10 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
706 2013-04-04 04:04:56 ratchetoverflow has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
707 2013-04-04 04:06:40 quaz has joined
708 2013-04-04 04:08:15 systemParanoid has joined
709 2013-04-04 04:09:53 AlmightyBung has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
710 2013-04-04 04:10:17 Brizzo has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
711 2013-04-04 04:10:17 newbie39 has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
712 2013-04-04 04:10:17 Guest6641 has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
713 2013-04-04 04:10:28 robocoin has quit (Quit: (â¯Â°â¡Â°ï¼â¯ï¸µ â»ââ»)
714 2013-04-04 04:10:51 nova90 has joined
715 2013-04-04 04:11:28 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
716 2013-04-04 04:11:55 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
717 2013-04-04 04:12:00 i2pRelay has joined
718 2013-04-04 04:12:08 Bjander has joined
719 2013-04-04 04:13:54 epylar has joined
720 2013-04-04 04:14:03 Phraust has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
721 2013-04-04 04:14:15 Phraust has joined
722 2013-04-04 04:14:15 Phraust has quit (Changing host)
723 2013-04-04 04:14:15 Phraust has joined
724 2013-04-04 04:16:15 jaequery has joined
725 2013-04-04 04:18:19 nova90 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
726 2013-04-04 04:19:30 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
727 2013-04-04 04:20:02 i2pRelay has joined
728 2013-04-04 04:23:02 Namworld has quit ()
729 2013-04-04 04:26:31 Cache_Money1 has joined
730 2013-04-04 04:26:55 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
731 2013-04-04 04:27:12 Bjander has joined
732 2013-04-04 04:27:18 nova90 has joined
733 2013-04-04 04:27:25 systemParanoid has quit (Quit: Leaving)
734 2013-04-04 04:27:30 Wayno has joined
735 2013-04-04 04:27:30 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
736 2013-04-04 04:27:55 TriNitroToluene has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
737 2013-04-04 04:28:00 <Wayno> hi, where is the 120 confirms part in bitcoin so i can change it to 100?
738 2013-04-04 04:28:03 i2pRelay has joined
739 2013-04-04 04:28:11 <pigeons> ;)
740 2013-04-04 04:28:31 <PovAddict> 120 confirms for what?
741 2013-04-04 04:28:44 robocoin has joined
742 2013-04-04 04:28:49 <pigeons> mature
743 2013-04-04 04:28:57 <Wayno> mature part
744 2013-04-04 04:28:58 <Wayno> yeah
745 2013-04-04 04:29:02 <PovAddict> ah, that's just a GUI thing right?
746 2013-04-04 04:29:05 <gmaxwell> Waynomain.cpp: return max(0, (COINBASE_MATURITY+20) - GetDepthInMainChain());
747 2013-04-04 04:29:14 <Wayno> ta
748 2013-04-04 04:29:16 <gmaxwell> Though I suggest +1.
749 2013-04-04 04:29:16 poggy has joined
750 2013-04-04 04:29:28 <gmaxwell> Making it +0 will result in stuck transactions when you spend right at the limit.
751 2013-04-04 04:29:39 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: do you have gitian setup yet?
752 2013-04-04 04:29:40 <Wayno> yeah
753 2013-04-04 04:29:43 <gmaxwell> (because not all of your peers will accept the spends at 0)
754 2013-04-04 04:29:44 <Wayno> its going to be 101
755 2013-04-04 04:29:58 <Wayno> thanks gmaxwell :)
756 2013-04-04 04:30:07 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: haven't tried lately.. heck at the moment my only computer running is my laptop. I've still not really recovered from my move.
757 2013-04-04 04:30:17 <Luke-Jr> >_<
758 2013-04-04 04:30:21 quaz is now known as quaz0r
759 2013-04-04 04:30:37 <PovAddict> moves suck
760 2013-04-04 04:31:12 <PovAddict> "I just finished moving. It was a horrible horrible experience. I swear next time I'll burn everything I own and buy it new."
761 2013-04-04 04:31:19 <PovAddict> ^ seen on the internets
762 2013-04-04 04:31:43 <sydna> there's an alternative, just avoid buying crap
763 2013-04-04 04:32:19 jj0hns0n has joined
764 2013-04-04 04:32:35 <PovAddict> I hadn't heard of gitian before
765 2013-04-04 04:32:39 <gmaxwell> Even avoding buying crap.. it still accumulates slowly.
766 2013-04-04 04:33:13 nova90 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
767 2013-04-04 04:34:51 OneFixt_ has joined
768 2013-04-04 04:35:28 Neskia has joined
769 2013-04-04 04:35:34 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
770 2013-04-04 04:35:39 Wayward- has joined
771 2013-04-04 04:36:06 i2pRelay has joined
772 2013-04-04 04:36:44 nicolas17 has joined
773 2013-04-04 04:36:50 Clown has joined
774 2013-04-04 04:37:00 PovAddict has quit (Disconnected by services)
775 2013-04-04 04:37:07 BlueMatt_ has joined
776 2013-04-04 04:37:14 Clown is now known as Guest28346
777 2013-04-04 04:37:37 nicolas17 is now known as PovAddict
778 2013-04-04 04:37:46 grau has joined
779 2013-04-04 04:37:47 drago777- has joined
780 2013-04-04 04:37:50 PovAddict has quit (Changing host)
781 2013-04-04 04:37:50 PovAddict has joined
782 2013-04-04 04:38:08 sydna has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
783 2013-04-04 04:38:09 smelul8r has joined
784 2013-04-04 04:38:26 gribble has quit (Disconnected by services)
785 2013-04-04 04:38:27 sydna has joined
786 2013-04-04 04:38:37 BlueMatt has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
787 2013-04-04 04:38:37 stevenc has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
788 2013-04-04 04:38:37 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
789 2013-04-04 04:38:37 has quit (Clown|!Clown@unaffiliated/clown/x-0272709|Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
790 2013-04-04 04:38:37 drago777 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
791 2013-04-04 04:38:37 stevenc has joined
792 2013-04-04 04:38:37 KoSoVaR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
793 2013-04-04 04:38:37 brwyatt has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
794 2013-04-04 04:38:37 _W_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
795 2013-04-04 04:38:37 Nesetalis has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
796 2013-04-04 04:38:37 smelul8r_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
797 2013-04-04 04:38:37 stevenc has left ()
798 2013-04-04 04:38:37 nanotube has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
799 2013-04-04 04:38:37 midnightmagic has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
800 2013-04-04 04:38:38 brwyatt_ has joined
801 2013-04-04 04:38:40 warren has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
802 2013-04-04 04:38:40 kenblazer_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
803 2013-04-04 04:38:40 OneFixt has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
804 2013-04-04 04:38:40 triciam has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
805 2013-04-04 04:38:40 Graet has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
806 2013-04-04 04:38:47 kantlivelong has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
807 2013-04-04 04:38:47 DaQatz has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
808 2013-04-04 04:38:47 Wayward has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
809 2013-04-04 04:38:48 triciam has joined
810 2013-04-04 04:38:49 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
811 2013-04-04 04:38:51 Jere_Jones has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
812 2013-04-04 04:38:55 DaQatz has joined
813 2013-04-04 04:39:16 <sydna> aw.
814 2013-04-04 04:39:19 <sydna> gribble dropped.
815 2013-04-04 04:39:21 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
816 2013-04-04 04:39:22 warren has joined
817 2013-04-04 04:39:27 coolfengyu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
818 2013-04-04 04:39:30 OneFixt_ is now known as OneFixt
819 2013-04-04 04:39:31 KoSoVaR has joined
820 2013-04-04 04:39:31 Wayno has left ()
821 2013-04-04 04:39:47 TradeFortress has joined
822 2013-04-04 04:39:47 <PovAddict> oh I thought it was my net
823 2013-04-04 04:40:01 coolfengyu has joined
824 2013-04-04 04:40:01 _W_ has joined
825 2013-04-04 04:40:01 midnightmagic has joined
826 2013-04-04 04:40:07 kantlivelong has joined
827 2013-04-04 04:40:07 <sydna> nope, looks like freenode messed up
828 2013-04-04 04:40:44 gribble has joined
829 2013-04-04 04:41:28 grau has joined
830 2013-04-04 04:41:33 techlife has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
831 2013-04-04 04:41:56 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
832 2013-04-04 04:42:01 nova90 has joined
833 2013-04-04 04:42:11 Bjander has joined
834 2013-04-04 04:42:44 stretchwarren has joined
835 2013-04-04 04:43:00 bitcoinbulletin has joined
836 2013-04-04 04:43:36 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
837 2013-04-04 04:44:07 i2pRelay has joined
838 2013-04-04 04:44:10 Aziz_ has joined
839 2013-04-04 04:44:28 <Aziz_> hey guys
840 2013-04-04 04:44:39 <Aziz_> any idea how to get started with accepting bitcoin using ruby
841 2013-04-04 04:44:42 PovAddict has left ("Konversation terminated!")
842 2013-04-04 04:46:14 Graet has joined
843 2013-04-04 04:46:14 Graet has quit (Changing host)
844 2013-04-04 04:46:14 Graet has joined
845 2013-04-04 04:46:32 nanotube has joined
846 2013-04-04 04:47:48 techlife has joined
847 2013-04-04 04:47:53 nova90 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
848 2013-04-04 04:50:37 zrad has joined
849 2013-04-04 04:50:44 Aziz_ has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
850 2013-04-04 04:51:38 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
851 2013-04-04 04:52:10 i2pRelay has joined
852 2013-04-04 04:52:24 blehtm has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130307023931])
853 2013-04-04 04:53:25 daughterly has quit (Quit: leaving)
854 2013-04-04 04:53:56 Davincij has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
855 2013-04-04 04:54:58 Anduck has joined
856 2013-04-04 04:54:58 Anduck has quit (Changing host)
857 2013-04-04 04:54:58 Anduck has joined
858 2013-04-04 04:56:28 Guest9866 is now known as Hasimir
859 2013-04-04 04:56:28 Hasimir has quit (Changing host)
860 2013-04-04 04:56:28 Hasimir has joined
861 2013-04-04 04:56:54 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
862 2013-04-04 04:57:07 Bjander has joined
863 2013-04-04 04:57:28 bolapara_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
864 2013-04-04 04:58:04 nsillik_ has joined
865 2013-04-04 04:58:14 epylar has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
866 2013-04-04 04:59:39 vigilyn3 has joined
867 2013-04-04 04:59:41 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
868 2013-04-04 04:59:44 mapppum has joined
869 2013-04-04 05:00:12 i2pRelay has joined
870 2013-04-04 05:01:17 iddo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
871 2013-04-04 05:01:23 kalleboo has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
872 2013-04-04 05:01:25 mappum has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
873 2013-04-04 05:01:25 iddo has joined
874 2013-04-04 05:01:25 gagecolton has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
875 2013-04-04 05:01:25 EPiSKiNG- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
876 2013-04-04 05:02:19 jackieh has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
877 2013-04-04 05:02:25 jackieh has joined
878 2013-04-04 05:02:30 vigilyn2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
879 2013-04-04 05:03:04 EPiSKiNG- has joined
880 2013-04-04 05:03:28 EPiSKiNG- is now known as Guest59884
881 2013-04-04 05:03:50 phungus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
882 2013-04-04 05:04:33 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
883 2013-04-04 05:04:34 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
884 2013-04-04 05:04:45 PhantomSpark has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
885 2013-04-04 05:05:03 phungus has joined
886 2013-04-04 05:05:34 polrpaul has joined
887 2013-04-04 05:05:52 petercommand has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
888 2013-04-04 05:06:36 PhantomSpark has quit (2!~kvirc@pool-71-251-16-105.nycmny.fios.verizon.net|Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
889 2013-04-04 05:06:55 nova90 has joined
890 2013-04-04 05:07:44 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
891 2013-04-04 05:08:16 i2pRelay has joined
892 2013-04-04 05:09:34 fronti has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
893 2013-04-04 05:10:42 Guest59884 is now known as EPiSKiNG
894 2013-04-04 05:10:44 fronti has joined
895 2013-04-04 05:10:49 EPiSKiNG has quit (Changing host)
896 2013-04-04 05:10:49 EPiSKiNG has joined
897 2013-04-04 05:11:05 PhantomSpark has joined
898 2013-04-04 05:11:58 EPiSKiNG is now known as EPiSKiNG-
899 2013-04-04 05:12:12 Bjander has joined
900 2013-04-04 05:15:25 sydna has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
901 2013-04-04 05:15:47 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
902 2013-04-04 05:16:19 i2pRelay has joined
903 2013-04-04 05:21:01 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
904 2013-04-04 05:23:17 Prattler has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
905 2013-04-04 05:23:50 RoboTeddy has joined
906 2013-04-04 05:23:50 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
907 2013-04-04 05:24:22 i2pRelay has joined
908 2013-04-04 05:26:55 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
909 2013-04-04 05:27:23 macboz has joined
910 2013-04-04 05:27:51 nsillik_ has quit (Quit: nsillik_)
911 2013-04-04 05:28:17 Phraust has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
912 2013-04-04 05:28:49 Phraust has joined
913 2013-04-04 05:31:52 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
914 2013-04-04 05:32:25 i2pRelay has joined
915 2013-04-04 05:32:53 gagecolton has joined
916 2013-04-04 05:34:23 duckybsd has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
917 2013-04-04 05:34:34 Vinnie_win has quit ()
918 2013-04-04 05:36:30 metabyte has joined
919 2013-04-04 05:36:37 sagax_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
920 2013-04-04 05:37:10 JZavala has joined
921 2013-04-04 05:37:23 bob12321_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
922 2013-04-04 05:37:35 sagax_ has joined
923 2013-04-04 05:39:07 lodse has joined
924 2013-04-04 05:40:05 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
925 2013-04-04 05:40:28 i2pRelay has joined
926 2013-04-04 05:41:14 mapppum has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
927 2013-04-04 05:41:41 zveda has joined
928 2013-04-04 05:41:55 free__ has joined
929 2013-04-04 05:42:12 mapppum has joined
930 2013-04-04 05:44:01 <ubuntu__> we just went through ~43 minutes between blocks (229592 -> 229593). does anyone know the coefficients of the probability to find a block (assuming the difficulty is ok, etc.)?
931 2013-04-04 05:44:25 <ubuntu__> I'd like to calculte how probable such a "gap" is..
932 2013-04-04 05:44:32 dust-otc has joined
933 2013-04-04 05:46:33 <muhoo> that'd be a useful number to have around
934 2013-04-04 05:47:38 <muhoo> i bet you'll have to fish around in satoshi's paper or in the mining software source code to derive that
935 2013-04-04 05:47:56 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
936 2013-04-04 05:48:10 ThomasV has joined
937 2013-04-04 05:48:27 grau has joined
938 2013-04-04 05:48:28 i2pRelay has joined
939 2013-04-04 05:51:33 coolfengyu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
940 2013-04-04 05:51:59 syxbits has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
941 2013-04-04 05:52:40 coolfengyu has joined
942 2013-04-04 05:53:34 sam__ has joined
943 2013-04-04 05:53:45 RedEmerald_ has joined
944 2013-04-04 05:53:49 Beef has quit ()
945 2013-04-04 05:54:18 p8m_ has joined
946 2013-04-04 05:54:36 filleokus_ has joined
947 2013-04-04 05:54:59 ubuntu__1 has joined
948 2013-04-04 05:55:29 rs0_ has joined
949 2013-04-04 05:55:41 dlunch_ has joined
950 2013-04-04 05:56:27 he1kki_ has joined
951 2013-04-04 05:56:30 torsthaldo_ has joined
952 2013-04-04 05:57:14 <gmaxwell> ...
953 2013-04-04 05:57:45 <gmaxwell> e^(-1/600*seconds) is the proportion of gaps which are longer than seconds.
954 2013-04-04 05:58:07 <gmaxwell> Kids these days.
955 2013-04-04 05:58:18 eoss has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
956 2013-04-04 05:58:58 L34N_ has joined
957 2013-04-04 05:59:17 ccook_ has joined
958 2013-04-04 05:59:46 thecell has joined
959 2013-04-04 06:00:06 sam has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
960 2013-04-04 06:00:06 RedEmerald has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
961 2013-04-04 06:00:06 p8m has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
962 2013-04-04 06:00:06 filleokus has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
963 2013-04-04 06:00:06 rs0 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
964 2013-04-04 06:00:06 ubuntu__ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
965 2013-04-04 06:00:06 dlunch has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
966 2013-04-04 06:00:06 he1kki has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
967 2013-04-04 06:00:06 gfawkes has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
968 2013-04-04 06:00:06 lady_awk has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
969 2013-04-04 06:00:07 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
970 2013-04-04 06:00:07 lnostdal has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
971 2013-04-04 06:00:07 blaeks has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
972 2013-04-04 06:00:07 torsthaldo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
973 2013-04-04 06:00:07 filleokus_ is now known as filleokus
974 2013-04-04 06:00:08 RedEmerald_ is now known as RedEmerald
975 2013-04-04 06:00:08 L34N has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
976 2013-04-04 06:00:08 ccook has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
977 2013-04-04 06:00:10 gfawkes has joined
978 2013-04-04 06:00:33 BlueMattBot has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
979 2013-04-04 06:00:33 parus has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
980 2013-04-04 06:00:36 i2pRelay has joined
981 2013-04-04 06:00:39 parus_ has joined
982 2013-04-04 06:01:00 blaeks has joined
983 2013-04-04 06:01:12 nx201 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
984 2013-04-04 06:01:29 nx201 has joined
985 2013-04-04 06:02:51 lnostdal has joined
986 2013-04-04 06:03:54 techlife has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
987 2013-04-04 06:07:58 techlife has joined
988 2013-04-04 06:07:59 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
989 2013-04-04 06:08:32 i2pRelay has joined
990 2013-04-04 06:13:35 witwit has joined
991 2013-04-04 06:14:15 toffoo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
992 2013-04-04 06:16:02 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
993 2013-04-04 06:16:14 Prattler has joined
994 2013-04-04 06:16:34 i2pRelay has joined
995 2013-04-04 06:16:44 eennaam has joined
996 2013-04-04 06:18:05 <cyphase> umm, am i crazy, or am i correct in thinking that the block size limit is NOT being raised on may 15th?
997 2013-04-04 06:18:12 <cyphase> i heard someone say it was
998 2013-04-04 06:18:33 B0g4r7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
999 2013-04-04 06:19:10 DrAkaman has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1000 2013-04-04 06:19:49 <eennaam> im trying to hack getblocktemplate into bitcoin v0.6.3 (ppcoin 0.3.0) , I have no idea how I think it needs to be done, any suggestions?
1001 2013-04-04 06:19:51 _pr has joined
1002 2013-04-04 06:19:51 _pr has quit (Changing host)
1003 2013-04-04 06:19:51 _pr has joined
1004 2013-04-04 06:20:12 toffoo has joined
1005 2013-04-04 06:20:53 <gmaxwell> cyphase: there is a temporary limit in place below the hard limit right now to avoid triggering the bug in <0.8 nodes that haven't been workarounded with large blocks.
1006 2013-04-04 06:21:15 <cyphase> gmaxwell, but the 1MB limit is not being raised
1007 2013-04-04 06:21:28 <gmaxwell> that goes away on may 15th, and so older nodes need to have put in place the lockcount work around, or upgraded either to 0.8+ or one of luke's stable backports.
1008 2013-04-04 06:21:34 <gmaxwell> cyphase: correct.
1009 2013-04-04 06:21:40 <cyphase> ah, good. i am sane :)
1010 2013-04-04 06:21:41 Beef has joined
1011 2013-04-04 06:23:43 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
1012 2013-04-04 06:24:03 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1013 2013-04-04 06:24:28 donaluna has joined
1014 2013-04-04 06:24:35 i2pRelay has joined
1015 2013-04-04 06:25:09 FredEE_ has joined
1016 2013-04-04 06:26:20 FredEE has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1017 2013-04-04 06:26:21 FredEE_ is now known as FredEE
1018 2013-04-04 06:30:21 neo2 has joined
1019 2013-04-04 06:30:50 ralphtheninja has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1020 2013-04-04 06:30:55 <neo2> Is Shamir's Secret Sharing Scheme a recommended way to backup your wallet? http://point-at-infinity.org/ssss/
1021 2013-04-04 06:32:05 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1022 2013-04-04 06:32:37 i2pRelay has joined
1023 2013-04-04 06:33:14 donaluna has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1024 2013-04-04 06:33:16 <gmaxwell> I wouldn't recommend doing something that complicated for backups.
1025 2013-04-04 06:33:30 saulimus has joined
1026 2013-04-04 06:34:36 clarkm has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1027 2013-04-04 06:34:52 clarkm has joined
1028 2013-04-04 06:35:25 manet_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1029 2013-04-04 06:35:25 phma__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1030 2013-04-04 06:35:58 RoboTeddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1031 2013-04-04 06:37:15 kenblazer_ has joined
1032 2013-04-04 06:38:29 <neo2> gmaxwell, it has the benefit of reducing the risk of losing a part of the key
1033 2013-04-04 06:38:48 phma__ has joined
1034 2013-04-04 06:38:49 <gmaxwell> neo2: just make several copies, that has even more protection.
1035 2013-04-04 06:39:13 <gmaxwell> and doesn't require you to find and correctly operate special software.
1036 2013-04-04 06:39:49 <neo2> gmaxwell, the physical copies have to be kept protected
1037 2013-04-04 06:40:07 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1038 2013-04-04 06:40:27 ltrottier has joined
1039 2013-04-04 06:40:39 i2pRelay has joined
1040 2013-04-04 06:41:59 <ltrottier> have just made a historical github repo with nakamoto's original source, if anyone's interested: https://github.com/trottier/original-bitcoin
1041 2013-04-04 06:42:19 <ltrottier> (also checking to see if anyone is offended by this, or whatever)
1042 2013-04-04 06:42:22 <gmaxwell> neo2: yes, and this is also true in SSS. You could encrypt the backups to reduce the risk, but the risk of compromise from a physical finding your backup attack is very low compared to other risks, most likely.
1043 2013-04-04 06:42:58 Gnaf has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1044 2013-04-04 06:43:55 bernard75 has joined
1045 2013-04-04 06:44:21 <neo2> gmaxwell, someone could lose his paper backup while he moves to a new house
1046 2013-04-04 06:44:48 <neo2> or lose one
1047 2013-04-04 06:44:59 <neo2> and if he encrypts he could forget the password
1048 2013-04-04 06:47:29 johnsoft1 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1049 2013-04-04 06:48:04 <gmaxwell> I'm not sure why you asked about it when you were apparently already sold on itâ
1050 2013-04-04 06:48:09 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1051 2013-04-04 06:48:41 i2pRelay has joined
1052 2013-04-04 06:48:45 fishfishclone has quit (Quit: Zzzzz..zzzzz)
1053 2013-04-04 06:49:00 <gmaxwell> I think you're overvaluing the other risks, and undervaluing the risk that you won't find enough factors to recover it.. or that you'll misuse the tool (only copy off one factor).. esp when you're depending on badguys not getting all the factors for your security.
1054 2013-04-04 06:49:31 <gmaxwell> I don't think it's badâ I just don't think it's an obvious huge win either.
1055 2013-04-04 06:50:00 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1056 2013-04-04 06:50:38 rebroad has joined
1057 2013-04-04 06:51:01 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1058 2013-04-04 06:51:02 rebroad is now known as Guest38577
1059 2013-04-04 06:52:01 <neo2> gmaxwell, yeah, but when you factor in something as leaving the backup to your next kin in the future complicates things further.
1060 2013-04-04 06:52:53 eennaam has left ()
1061 2013-04-04 06:52:54 <gmaxwell> so does the n-factors, they'll never figure out SSS tool. :P just make a usb and a paper backup, put in a safe deposit box.
1062 2013-04-04 06:53:13 <Diablo-D3> encrypted in a safe deposit box
1063 2013-04-04 06:53:27 zeiris has quit (Quit: segfault)
1064 2013-04-04 06:53:28 <Diablo-D3> safe deposit boxes are not safe.
1065 2013-04-04 06:53:37 <neo2> what is then?
1066 2013-04-04 06:53:39 <gmaxwell> I wonder if one can use a letter left in a post office box as a ghetto safe depost box? :P
1067 2013-04-04 06:53:55 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: its actually been done before in a novel
1068 2013-04-04 06:54:20 <neo2> lol pretty clever
1069 2013-04-04 06:54:36 <neo2> dpesm
1070 2013-04-04 06:54:42 <neo2> doens't sound really safe though..
1071 2013-04-04 06:54:44 <Diablo-D3> you know whats even more clever? using a draft in gmail with an attachment.
1072 2013-04-04 06:55:05 <neo2> Diablo-D3, that's for backing up for yourself, not for others
1073 2013-04-04 06:55:09 <Diablo-D3> its so clever one of our top military men got in trouble over it because, ultimately, he was cheating on his wife.
1074 2013-04-04 06:55:29 <Diablo-D3> neo2: actually, said military guy was using it to pass messages
1075 2013-04-04 06:55:31 <gmaxwell> it never was really explained what business the FBI had in reading his email. :P
1076 2013-04-04 06:55:47 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: apparently they FBI were doing it by request from the military
1077 2013-04-04 06:55:51 <Diablo-D3> not sure why they just didnt ask the NSA
1078 2013-04-04 06:56:10 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1079 2013-04-04 06:56:40 <neo2> Isn't gmail encrypted?
1080 2013-04-04 06:56:42 i2pRelay has joined
1081 2013-04-04 06:57:00 <Diablo-D3> neo2: no.
1082 2013-04-04 06:57:05 <Diablo-D3> how could it be? its email.
1083 2013-04-04 06:57:16 <neo2> Diablo-D3, I mean, how was it tapped?
1084 2013-04-04 06:57:30 <Diablo-D3> neo2: FBI shows up at Google HQ with a letter signed by a judge.
1085 2013-04-04 06:57:35 <neo2> its using https
1086 2013-04-04 06:57:35 <Diablo-D3> Google burns a CD and hands it to the FBI.
1087 2013-04-04 06:57:48 owowodopolous has quit (Quit: sayonara)
1088 2013-04-04 06:57:56 <neo2> Diablo-D3, that's not a tech attack then
1089 2013-04-04 06:58:01 <Diablo-D3> nope, it wasnt.
1090 2013-04-04 06:58:16 <Diablo-D3> the NSA however already has a backdoor in Google's systems and it saves them a drive over.
1091 2013-04-04 06:58:32 <Diablo-D3> with gas prices the way they are, its worth using the NSA.
1092 2013-04-04 06:58:47 Guest38577 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1093 2013-04-04 06:58:49 nus- has joined
1094 2013-04-04 06:58:53 LainZ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1095 2013-04-04 06:58:58 <neo2> lol
1096 2013-04-04 06:59:00 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: wtf am I still +qed in #bitcoin-mining?
1097 2013-04-04 06:59:06 nus-- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1098 2013-04-04 06:59:52 n1c has joined
1099 2013-04-04 07:00:13 <ThomasV> it would be great to have signed receipts. I placed an order with a merchant 1 week ago, and I have no statement that I paid, except the tx.
1100 2013-04-04 07:00:38 <Diablo-D3> ThomasV: then out the merchant on the forum
1101 2013-04-04 07:00:46 <ThomasV> I'm getting a bit nervous, although they use bitpay
1102 2013-04-04 07:01:02 <ThomasV> Diablo-D3: I will call them first
1103 2013-04-04 07:01:21 <ThomasV> they are just not in my timezone, not easy
1104 2013-04-04 07:02:24 <ThomasV> but I think we need bitcoin: URIs signed by the merchant with a unique key associated to their identity
1105 2013-04-04 07:02:48 <ThomasV> customers would feel more secure
1106 2013-04-04 07:03:06 <Diablo-D3> or how about just a fucking email saying "hey, we're shipping your order now"
1107 2013-04-04 07:03:42 <ThomasV> they said that they send an email when they ship.
1108 2013-04-04 07:03:55 <ThomasV> so I guess they have not shipped at all
1109 2013-04-04 07:04:11 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1110 2013-04-04 07:04:14 <ThomasV> I suspect a problem with the payment processor (bitpay)
1111 2013-04-04 07:04:20 leakybuckit has joined
1112 2013-04-04 07:04:22 <gmaxwell> ThomasV: thats one thing solved by the payment protocol stuff.
1113 2013-04-04 07:04:40 <ThomasV> gmaxwell: exactly. so I'm saying it's needed
1114 2013-04-04 07:04:44 i2pRelay has joined
1115 2013-04-04 07:04:50 IveBeenBit has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1116 2013-04-04 07:08:12 <ThomasV> well, I will not mind if I get refunded in btc, given the btc/usd price increase :)
1117 2013-04-04 07:12:14 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1118 2013-04-04 07:12:45 i2pRelay has joined
1119 2013-04-04 07:13:16 idstam has quit ()
1120 2013-04-04 07:15:39 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1121 2013-04-04 07:16:23 rebroad has joined
1122 2013-04-04 07:16:47 rebroad is now known as Guest75259
1123 2013-04-04 07:20:18 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1124 2013-04-04 07:20:45 Anduck has joined
1125 2013-04-04 07:20:45 Anduck has quit (Changing host)
1126 2013-04-04 07:20:45 Anduck has joined
1127 2013-04-04 07:20:49 i2pRelay has joined
1128 2013-04-04 07:21:14 Tantadruj has quit (Quit: DoubleRecall Turns Paywalls Into Advertising Dollars - NYTimes.com http://nyti.ms/odHOgy)
1129 2013-04-04 07:27:13 ltrottier has quit (Quit: ltrottier)
1130 2013-04-04 07:28:02 grau has joined
1131 2013-04-04 07:28:20 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1132 2013-04-04 07:28:50 i2pRelay has joined
1133 2013-04-04 07:30:13 Goonie_ has joined
1134 2013-04-04 07:30:40 ltrottier has joined
1135 2013-04-04 07:32:52 dbe has joined
1136 2013-04-04 07:33:16 dbe is now known as Guest11762
1137 2013-04-04 07:33:57 <gmaxwell> [OT] The C++ in this mystery hunt puzzle made me laugh http://www.mit.edu/~puzzle/2013/coinheist.com/get_smart/halting_problem/
1138 2013-04-04 07:34:05 kalleboo has joined
1139 2013-04-04 07:34:19 RoboTeddy has joined
1140 2013-04-04 07:34:38 <gwillen> gmaxwell: I was the editor on that puzzle!
1141 2013-04-04 07:34:39 Guest75259 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1142 2013-04-04 07:34:41 <gwillen> I love it so much.
1143 2013-04-04 07:35:16 iddo has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1144 2013-04-04 07:35:20 <gwillen> oh, yeah, the fact that it's template metaprogramming -- I can't remember if I suggested that but it's great.
1145 2013-04-04 07:35:25 iddo has joined
1146 2013-04-04 07:35:33 c_k has joined
1147 2013-04-04 07:36:06 <gmaxwell> my comments were:
1148 2013-04-04 07:36:06 <gmaxwell> 00:09 < gmaxwell> dear god. the CPP one. I hope someone was sent to jail for that. I bet that takes like ... 10 gb ram to compile
1149 2013-04-04 07:36:09 <gmaxwell> 00:09 < gmaxwell> ... wait, is that the point? is it actually run forever in the templates?
1150 2013-04-04 07:36:12 <gmaxwell> 00:10 * gmaxwell doesn't dare try
1151 2013-04-04 07:36:21 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1152 2013-04-04 07:36:53 i2pRelay has joined
1153 2013-04-04 07:37:01 <gwillen> hahahahah.
1154 2013-04-04 07:37:10 <gwillen> gmaxwell: did you read the solution?
1155 2013-04-04 07:37:29 Joric has joined
1156 2013-04-04 07:37:32 <gwillen> There are commented versions of all the programs.
1157 2013-04-04 07:38:26 <gmaxwell> but then if i happen to accidentally learn all those languages I won't get he joy of trying to solve it myself... :P
1158 2013-04-04 07:38:38 <gwillen> oh, you haven't done it!
1159 2013-04-04 07:38:41 <gwillen> then I shan't spoil anything ;-)
1160 2013-04-04 07:39:15 sydna has joined
1161 2013-04-04 07:39:16 <gwillen> I think I can safely help you appreciate the C++, though, by noting that indeed, it does all the computation at compile time.
1162 2013-04-04 07:39:27 <gmaxwell> yea, I see that it does that.
1163 2013-04-04 07:39:30 <gwillen> It is my favorite joke about C++ that this is possible.
1164 2013-04-04 07:39:48 <gwillen> I wrote a lambda calculus interpreter that does that, just for fun,.
1165 2013-04-04 07:40:03 <gmaxwell> It's more sad that its turing complete but only insanly inefficiently so.
1166 2013-04-04 07:40:13 <sivu> even more with c++11 as you can make actual functions that run compile time
1167 2013-04-04 07:40:19 <sivu> with constexpr
1168 2013-04-04 07:40:35 <gwillen> oh dear
1169 2013-04-04 07:40:38 <gwillen> I didn't even think about that
1170 2013-04-04 07:40:39 <sivu> like generating hashes from strings during compile
1171 2013-04-04 07:40:41 volante has joined
1172 2013-04-04 07:40:49 <Arnavion> Does that program actually have to be that complicated? Or is it just padded with fluff?
1173 2013-04-04 07:40:55 <gwillen> you can do a limited amount of that even before C++11
1174 2013-04-04 07:40:56 <gmaxwell> well, perhaps that would make it more usable. as is the fact that its turing complete just makes parsing undecidable without actually being that useful. :P
1175 2013-04-04 07:41:04 <gwillen> haha
1176 2013-04-04 07:41:31 <volante> hi. i'm following the instructions to build the qt client on osx, but I get this error when from qtcreator: src/qt/macdockiconhandler.mm:4: error: 'QtGui/QMenu' file not found
1177 2013-04-04 07:41:44 <grau> gwillen: so cpp is a virtual machine running c++, why does it produce an executable at all?
1178 2013-04-04 07:41:50 <gwillen> Arnavion: I have no comment, to avoid spoiling the puzzle :-)
1179 2013-04-04 07:41:54 <ypSami> Is there a way to get the BTC-e ticker without authentication?
1180 2013-04-04 07:42:09 <gwillen> grau: are you talking about cpp (i.e. the C pre-processor), or C++ templates (which are used in that file)?
1181 2013-04-04 07:42:10 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
1182 2013-04-04 07:42:16 <grau> I was joking
1183 2013-04-04 07:42:20 <gwillen> hahahaha, oh XD
1184 2013-04-04 07:42:26 <sydna> ypSami: scrape it?
1185 2013-04-04 07:42:32 holorga_ has joined
1186 2013-04-04 07:42:40 <ypSami> sydna: Yeah.. I want that as a last resort
1187 2013-04-04 07:42:42 <grau> I saw people writing algorithm with templates too
1188 2013-04-04 07:42:51 fishfish has joined
1189 2013-04-04 07:42:57 <ypSami> sydna: was hoping to get it in JSON or via socket
1190 2013-04-04 07:43:24 <gmaxwell> Arnavion: its obfuscated. I assume that what its doing is creating some kind of 2d board game (??) and then advancing states in it.. but all inside template invocation.
1191 2013-04-04 07:43:44 <Arnavion> Thank God
1192 2013-04-04 07:43:45 fishfish has quit (Client Quit)
1193 2013-04-04 07:43:51 <sydna> ypSami: I doubt they have a websocket. you're going to be limited to pulling via HTTP, or scraping their main page
1194 2013-04-04 07:44:02 <sydna> ** authenticated HTTP
1195 2013-04-04 07:44:13 <gmaxwell> maybe a cellular automata... though the state looks binary.
1196 2013-04-04 07:44:23 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1197 2013-04-04 07:44:36 <ypSami> sydna: Alright. Well, I guess there are multiple fallbacks at this point in the industry :P
1198 2013-04-04 07:44:55 i2pRelay has joined
1199 2013-04-04 07:44:57 <sydna> ypSami: oh man. their API is bad.
1200 2013-04-04 07:45:18 <ypSami> sydna: I know. I design APIs. I was hoping there was something I wasn't aware of lol
1201 2013-04-04 07:45:32 <ypSami> sydna: thanks for your help
1202 2013-04-04 07:46:46 <sydna> ypSami: I thought they might have the data exposed through an ajax refresh or similar, but it's all just static HTTP :\
1203 2013-04-04 07:47:13 <ypSami> sydna: Then I must do what I can, with what I have, where I am :)
1204 2013-04-04 07:49:49 rs0_ has quit (Quit: leaving)
1205 2013-04-04 07:50:28 <sydna> ypSami: I'm not sure I'd trust an exchange written in PHP anyway
1206 2013-04-04 07:50:44 HM has joined
1207 2013-04-04 07:50:53 <sivu> or anything bigger than "HI THIS IS MY WEBPAGE" written in php
1208 2013-04-04 07:51:02 HM2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1209 2013-04-04 07:51:03 <ypSami> sydna: As a web developer, I'm inclined to agree with you.. but their site is a lot of fun to trade on believe it or not :)
1210 2013-04-04 07:52:25 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1211 2013-04-04 07:52:56 <sydna> ypSami: still scares me enough not to want to even visit the site.
1212 2013-04-04 07:52:57 i2pRelay has joined
1213 2013-04-04 07:53:31 <ypSami> sydna: I made $1,500 last night trading between BTC and LTC. You may be missing out :P
1214 2013-04-04 07:56:24 FredEE has joined
1215 2013-04-04 07:57:40 AlbertTuring has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
1216 2013-04-04 07:57:46 coolfengyu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1217 2013-04-04 07:58:11 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1218 2013-04-04 07:58:46 copumpkin has joined
1219 2013-04-04 07:58:59 Guest28346 is now known as |Clown|
1220 2013-04-04 07:58:59 has quit (Clown|!Clown@static-87-79-93-140.netcologne.de|Changing host)
1221 2013-04-04 07:59:00 has joined
1222 2013-04-04 07:59:26 coolfengyu has joined
1223 2013-04-04 07:59:45 ypSami has quit (Quit: ypSami)
1224 2013-04-04 08:00:26 leakybuckit has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1225 2013-04-04 08:00:26 taha has joined
1226 2013-04-04 08:00:27 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1227 2013-04-04 08:00:54 sam__ is now known as sam
1228 2013-04-04 08:00:58 ovidiusoft has joined
1229 2013-04-04 08:01:02 i2pRelay has joined
1230 2013-04-04 08:04:09 tockitj has joined
1231 2013-04-04 08:05:24 AdamBLevine has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1232 2013-04-04 08:06:18 bolapara__ has joined
1233 2013-04-04 08:06:58 bolapara__ has quit (Client Quit)
1234 2013-04-04 08:07:20 bolapara_ has joined
1235 2013-04-04 08:08:00 <ProfMac> I want to pull some data from the blockchain. In particular, <transaction, pay-from, pay-to, amount, date>. A particular pay-to address can be viewed at https://blockchain.info/address/17DCms43Vu2yusDjmpjHJuZihSSWkNzgSH I wonder if anyone would like to quote on writing an application to do this.
1236 2013-04-04 08:08:29 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1237 2013-04-04 08:08:52 noah_ has joined
1238 2013-04-04 08:08:58 <ProfMac> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=159214.msg1738313#msg1738313 gives an example of the sort of output I want to receive.
1239 2013-04-04 08:09:00 i2pRelay has joined
1240 2013-04-04 08:09:01 <gmaxwell> transactions do not have "from" addresses, you might try to infer a from from the prior tos but this can be unreliable.
1241 2013-04-04 08:09:45 johnsoft has joined
1242 2013-04-04 08:10:02 <gmaxwell> the output you're listing there doesn't even follow, e.g. what do you do when there are many distinct prior tos which one is the single "from" in your output?
1243 2013-04-04 08:10:29 <gmaxwell> and will you report things like that single from having sent more in value than it ever recieved?
1244 2013-04-04 08:10:39 ZeroIce has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1245 2013-04-04 08:12:10 <gmaxwell> ProfMac: what would you output for this transaction? https://blockchain.info/tx/14947302eab0608fb2650a05f13f6f30b27a0a314c41250000f77ed904475dbb
1246 2013-04-04 08:12:23 volante has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1247 2013-04-04 08:13:01 <gmaxwell> (context for anyone crazy enough to think that I have six million dollars in bitcoin: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139581.0 )
1248 2013-04-04 08:13:30 Keefe has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1249 2013-04-04 08:14:09 mapppum has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1250 2013-04-04 08:15:20 lodse has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1251 2013-04-04 08:16:17 <ProfMac> I'm interested in the special cases where there is one "from" and the amount to a specific "to". I'm looking at your link next.
1252 2013-04-04 08:16:31 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1253 2013-04-04 08:16:38 <Joric> gmaxwell, i thought you have more, actually :)
1254 2013-04-04 08:17:03 i2pRelay has joined
1255 2013-04-04 08:19:21 <Joric> it's only about 42k btc i almost got to a thousand while gambling but lost everything :(
1256 2013-04-04 08:19:22 <gmaxwell> Joric: lol. No way.
1257 2013-04-04 08:19:39 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1258 2013-04-04 08:20:04 Insu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1259 2013-04-04 08:20:16 Keefe has joined
1260 2013-04-04 08:20:20 Insu has joined
1261 2013-04-04 08:20:32 <ProfMac> gmaxwell, if I assume the specified target address is 1AM5xJLHAenvTdzRDh6rv5TUFJm84W4uvT, I would make a triple of outputs, and the pay to amount would be 1/1, 1/40000, and 1/10000. This would be a pathological case, however, and administratively I would reject it.
1262 2013-04-04 08:20:39 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1263 2013-04-04 08:21:11 grau has joined
1264 2013-04-04 08:21:33 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1265 2013-04-04 08:21:40 <gmaxwell> ProfMac: there are many send-many (multiple outputs) transactions out there.
1266 2013-04-04 08:22:20 <gmaxwell> And in this case the transaction was formed by three different senders but there is no way to tell that from the transaction, it looks pretty normal.
1267 2013-04-04 08:22:21 dlunch_ is now known as dlunch
1268 2013-04-04 08:23:20 coolfengyu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1269 2013-04-04 08:23:44 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
1270 2013-04-04 08:23:58 Guest75259 has joined
1271 2013-04-04 08:24:26 coolfengyu has joined
1272 2013-04-04 08:24:32 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1273 2013-04-04 08:25:04 i2pRelay has joined
1274 2013-04-04 08:26:10 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1275 2013-04-04 08:27:33 <ProfMac> gmaxwell, I'm not applying this to generic wild transactions. I am applying this to transactions to a new address set up for an auction. The paying party wants to construct the transaction so that the "from" address is his return payment address.
1276 2013-04-04 08:28:20 <gmaxwell> uh thats a really bad pratice.
1277 2013-04-04 08:28:44 knotwork has joined
1278 2013-04-04 08:28:50 <Joric> hope i finally get enough time for a full blown tx editor that could sign manually edited transactions %)
1279 2013-04-04 08:28:56 <gmaxwell> it requires insecure, deanonymizing wallet behavior, and if someone gets it wrong you end up sending funds back to a potential black hole.
1280 2013-04-04 08:30:19 ltrottier has quit (Quit: ltrottier)
1281 2013-04-04 08:30:50 bernard75 has quit ()
1282 2013-04-04 08:31:58 <Joric> there are like 3 different json formats already - bitcoin-qt, blockchain.info and blockexplorer
1283 2013-04-04 08:32:20 <Joric> maybe bitcoin-abe didn't check it
1284 2013-04-04 08:32:34 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1285 2013-04-04 08:32:55 robocoin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1286 2013-04-04 08:33:06 i2pRelay has joined
1287 2013-04-04 08:33:25 <Joric> guess it uses it's own format too
1288 2013-04-04 08:33:46 lodse has joined
1289 2013-04-04 08:35:18 <ProfMac> gmaxwell. There is a strong need for audit trails in some circumstances, and there is strong need for a payback address that is anonymous. I expect this approach to be "invented" over and over. So there are 2 dilemmas here. How do I automate the results of the auction I have already launched, and what is the long term solution to having an audit trail when it is desired.
1290 2013-04-04 08:35:45 dvide has quit ()
1291 2013-04-04 08:38:11 Joric has quit ()
1292 2013-04-04 08:38:39 BlackPrapor has joined
1293 2013-04-04 08:40:21 BLZNGPNGN has quit (2!~kvirc@S0106602ad0726c1f.vf.shawcable.net|Quit: ~qq)
1294 2013-04-04 08:40:27 GordonG3kko has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1295 2013-04-04 08:40:37 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1296 2013-04-04 08:40:40 <gmaxwell> ProfMac: you could start by not starting things and accepting money from people when you haven't yet worked out the detailsâ as far as providing audit trails, signed messages are an excellent way of accomplishing that in many cases.
1297 2013-04-04 08:41:09 i2pRelay has joined
1298 2013-04-04 08:41:16 GordonG3kko has joined
1299 2013-04-04 08:48:26 Cache_Money1 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1300 2013-04-04 08:48:38 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1301 2013-04-04 08:49:04 t7 has joined
1302 2013-04-04 08:49:10 i2pRelay has joined
1303 2013-04-04 08:53:13 arij_ has joined
1304 2013-04-04 08:54:08 brwyatt_ is now known as brwyatt_|Away
1305 2013-04-04 08:54:23 Guest75259 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1306 2013-04-04 08:54:44 noah_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1307 2013-04-04 08:55:12 arij has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1308 2013-04-04 08:56:33 noah_ has joined
1309 2013-04-04 08:56:41 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1310 2013-04-04 08:57:12 i2pRelay has joined
1311 2013-04-04 08:57:13 <ProfMac> gmaxwell, here is a transaction of the form that I envision: 52c506ec67fcfbe016d63cb9c41598b64134086595c300538baacbf87414c7b2 The 0.05 BTC to the specified address 17DCms43Vu2yusDjmpjHJuZihSSWkNzgSH is pretty well documented, and the interpretation that 13shEJVGamWDu1qkAjbjD8g62hacPFmjQc is a valid payback address also seems pretty clear.
1312 2013-04-04 09:03:20 ry4nn has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1313 2013-04-04 09:03:59 manet has joined
1314 2013-04-04 09:04:42 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1315 2013-04-04 09:05:14 i2pRelay has joined
1316 2013-04-04 09:06:27 XertroV has joined
1317 2013-04-04 09:07:12 XertroV has quit (Client Quit)
1318 2013-04-04 09:08:12 noah_ has quit (Quit: noah_)
1319 2013-04-04 09:12:43 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1320 2013-04-04 09:13:16 i2pRelay has joined
1321 2013-04-04 09:13:45 warren has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1322 2013-04-04 09:14:18 warren has joined
1323 2013-04-04 09:15:44 jeremias has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1324 2013-04-04 09:15:51 jeremias has joined
1325 2013-04-04 09:20:46 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1326 2013-04-04 09:21:16 i2pRelay has joined
1327 2013-04-04 09:23:44 slush has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1328 2013-04-04 09:24:10 RazielZ has joined
1329 2013-04-04 09:27:51 Thepok has joined
1330 2013-04-04 09:28:47 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1331 2013-04-04 09:29:11 Guest11762 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1332 2013-04-04 09:29:19 i2pRelay has joined
1333 2013-04-04 09:33:18 Thepok has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
1334 2013-04-04 09:33:34 Thepok has joined
1335 2013-04-04 09:34:13 bob12321 has joined
1336 2013-04-04 09:35:17 valparaiso_afk is now known as valparaiso
1337 2013-04-04 09:35:52 Arnavion has quit (Quit: Arnavion)
1338 2013-04-04 09:36:33 m0mchil has joined
1339 2013-04-04 09:36:40 Arnavion has joined
1340 2013-04-04 09:36:50 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1341 2013-04-04 09:37:23 i2pRelay has joined
1342 2013-04-04 09:38:57 rdymac has joined
1343 2013-04-04 09:40:41 da2ce7 has joined
1344 2013-04-04 09:41:59 svara has quit (Disconnected by services)
1345 2013-04-04 09:42:19 svara_ has joined
1346 2013-04-04 09:43:31 leviathanbaphz has joined
1347 2013-04-04 09:44:21 Leviathanzz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1348 2013-04-04 09:44:29 yes_33_yes has left ()
1349 2013-04-04 09:44:52 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1350 2013-04-04 09:45:23 i2pRelay has joined
1351 2013-04-04 09:48:27 _anon has joined
1352 2013-04-04 09:51:11 normanrichards has quit ()
1353 2013-04-04 09:51:39 iddo has quit (Changing host)
1354 2013-04-04 09:51:39 iddo has joined
1355 2013-04-04 09:52:13 _MWNinja has joined
1356 2013-04-04 09:52:55 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1357 2013-04-04 09:53:28 i2pRelay has joined
1358 2013-04-04 09:53:54 duckybsd has joined
1359 2013-04-04 09:56:39 fposdkgs has joined
1360 2013-04-04 09:57:39 cads has joined
1361 2013-04-04 09:58:17 Transisto has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1362 2013-04-04 09:58:48 _anon has quit (Quit: _anon)
1363 2013-04-04 09:59:11 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1364 2013-04-04 09:59:13 Peacemaker420 has joined
1365 2013-04-04 09:59:13 peacemaker has joined
1366 2013-04-04 09:59:15 _anon has joined
1367 2013-04-04 10:00:57 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1368 2013-04-04 10:01:32 i2pRelay has joined
1369 2013-04-04 10:03:57 GMP has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1370 2013-04-04 10:06:54 toffoo has quit ()
1371 2013-04-04 10:07:27 TD has joined
1372 2013-04-04 10:07:59 coolfengyu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1373 2013-04-04 10:08:48 coolfengyu has joined
1374 2013-04-04 10:09:01 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1375 2013-04-04 10:09:32 i2pRelay has joined
1376 2013-04-04 10:12:15 Line_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1377 2013-04-04 10:17:02 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1378 2013-04-04 10:17:26 Line_ has joined
1379 2013-04-04 10:17:34 i2pRelay has joined
1380 2013-04-04 10:22:15 alaricsp has joined
1381 2013-04-04 10:23:29 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1382 2013-04-04 10:25:04 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1383 2013-04-04 10:25:36 i2pRelay has joined
1384 2013-04-04 10:30:58 MC-Droid has joined
1385 2013-04-04 10:31:24 one_zero has quit ()
1386 2013-04-04 10:33:05 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1387 2013-04-04 10:33:37 i2pRelay has joined
1388 2013-04-04 10:34:05 cosurgi has joined
1389 2013-04-04 10:35:13 jdnavarro has joined
1390 2013-04-04 10:36:34 sydna has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1391 2013-04-04 10:37:58 bernard75 has joined
1392 2013-04-04 10:41:09 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1393 2013-04-04 10:41:09 neon_ has joined
1394 2013-04-04 10:41:21 BlackPrapor has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1395 2013-04-04 10:41:40 i2pRelay has joined
1396 2013-04-04 10:44:02 rbecker is now known as RBecker
1397 2013-04-04 10:46:36 <neo2> Is there a way to backup a bitcoin-qt wallet in a similar way to the Armory?
1398 2013-04-04 10:49:12 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1399 2013-04-04 10:49:25 grau has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1400 2013-04-04 10:49:44 i2pRelay has joined
1401 2013-04-04 10:50:01 grau has joined
1402 2013-04-04 10:51:11 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1403 2013-04-04 10:54:23 ashley_ has joined
1404 2013-04-04 10:54:27 <sipa> neo2: there is a backup wallet menu option
1405 2013-04-04 10:54:31 ashley_ has left ()
1406 2013-04-04 10:54:44 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1407 2013-04-04 10:54:51 <sipa> neo2: not sure how that compares tonarnory these days
1408 2013-04-04 10:55:38 <neo2> sipa, but it doesn't use a seed like the Armory so it's no use for paper back up , right?
1409 2013-04-04 10:55:48 <sipa> not yet, no
1410 2013-04-04 10:56:22 <neo2> maybe it's not secure enough for bitcoin-qt standards..
1411 2013-04-04 10:56:41 t7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1412 2013-04-04 10:56:47 <sipa> it's being worked on, see the BIP32 proposal
1413 2013-04-04 10:57:05 t7 has joined
1414 2013-04-04 10:57:15 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1415 2013-04-04 10:57:44 i2pRelay has joined
1416 2013-04-04 10:58:09 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1417 2013-04-04 10:58:13 stretchwarren has joined
1418 2013-04-04 10:58:30 BTCOxygen has joined
1419 2013-04-04 10:58:38 <muhoo> signed messages are publicly-visible, correct?
1420 2013-04-04 10:59:14 pmgcpt has joined
1421 2013-04-04 11:00:00 <sipa> if you publish them, yes?
1422 2013-04-04 11:00:23 nifty_ has joined
1423 2013-04-04 11:00:47 <neo2> muhoo, I don't thik it's on the network...
1424 2013-04-04 11:01:12 <sipa> oh, no they are not on the P2P network
1425 2013-04-04 11:01:24 <sipa> they are just a piece of text
1426 2013-04-04 11:04:58 nifty_ has left ()
1427 2013-04-04 11:05:08 drizztbsd has joined
1428 2013-04-04 11:05:08 drizztbsd has quit (Changing host)
1429 2013-04-04 11:05:08 drizztbsd has joined
1430 2013-04-04 11:05:16 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1431 2013-04-04 11:05:47 i2pRelay has joined
1432 2013-04-04 11:08:30 t7` has joined
1433 2013-04-04 11:09:16 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1434 2013-04-04 11:10:09 grau has joined
1435 2013-04-04 11:10:13 t7 has quit (Disconnected by services)
1436 2013-04-04 11:10:23 t7` is now known as t7
1437 2013-04-04 11:10:45 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (away!~PiZZaMaN2@unaffiliated/pizzaman2k|Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
1438 2013-04-04 11:11:14 Peacemaker420 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1439 2013-04-04 11:11:34 peacemaker has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1440 2013-04-04 11:13:17 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1441 2013-04-04 11:13:48 i2pRelay has joined
1442 2013-04-04 11:17:40 XertroV has joined
1443 2013-04-04 11:19:15 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1444 2013-04-04 11:20:53 zooe has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1445 2013-04-04 11:21:19 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1446 2013-04-04 11:21:50 i2pRelay has joined
1447 2013-04-04 11:21:58 BlackPrapor has joined
1448 2013-04-04 11:23:27 nsillik_ has joined
1449 2013-04-04 11:25:21 nsillik has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1450 2013-04-04 11:25:21 nsillik_ is now known as nsillik
1451 2013-04-04 11:27:51 coolfengyu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1452 2013-04-04 11:28:31 darkee_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1453 2013-04-04 11:29:07 darkee_ has joined
1454 2013-04-04 11:29:21 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1455 2013-04-04 11:29:53 i2pRelay has joined
1456 2013-04-04 11:30:09 <JWU42> with the changes recently - what files (dir) need to be copied for moving the blockchain -- all 3 subdir (blocks, chainstate and databse)?
1457 2013-04-04 11:32:02 GMP has joined
1458 2013-04-04 11:34:37 coolfengyu has joined
1459 2013-04-04 11:36:27 viperhr1 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1460 2013-04-04 11:36:52 Impaler has joined
1461 2013-04-04 11:41:04 Davincij15 has joined
1462 2013-04-04 11:46:06 pmgcpt has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1463 2013-04-04 11:51:50 Aziz has joined
1464 2013-04-04 11:53:52 kalleboo has quit (Excess Flood)
1465 2013-04-04 11:54:20 kalleboo has joined
1466 2013-04-04 11:54:20 kalleboo is now known as kalleboo|away
1467 2013-04-04 12:00:02 kalleboo is now known as away!~kalleboo@i118-18-140-128.s11.a046.ap.plala.or.jp|kalleboo
1468 2013-04-04 12:00:07 <JWU42> hrm
1469 2013-04-04 12:00:11 <JWU42> all are dead I guess
1470 2013-04-04 12:00:12 Bohren has joined
1471 2013-04-04 12:02:27 berni23 has joined
1472 2013-04-04 12:02:27 berni23 has quit (Changing host)
1473 2013-04-04 12:02:27 berni23 has joined
1474 2013-04-04 12:02:48 bernard75 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1475 2013-04-04 12:06:48 berni23 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1476 2013-04-04 12:06:49 bernard75 has joined
1477 2013-04-04 12:06:49 bernard75 has quit (Changing host)
1478 2013-04-04 12:06:49 bernard75 has joined
1479 2013-04-04 12:07:54 ThomasV has joined
1480 2013-04-04 12:08:08 <sipa> JWU42: doc/files.txt gives an overview of currently andnpast used filenames
1481 2013-04-04 12:08:44 <sipa> JWU42: in general, copy wallet.dat, blocks/ and chainstate/, but in theory all three are independent from eachother
1482 2013-04-04 12:09:04 <JWU42> thks sipa
1483 2013-04-04 12:09:11 berni23 has joined
1484 2013-04-04 12:09:11 berni23 has quit (Changing host)
1485 2013-04-04 12:09:11 berni23 has joined
1486 2013-04-04 12:09:25 <JWU42> so really for the blockchain just blcoks and chainstate -- kinda as i thought
1487 2013-04-04 12:09:32 <JWU42> appreciate it!
1488 2013-04-04 12:09:33 <sipa> indeed
1489 2013-04-04 12:09:54 <sipa> database is just for the wallet, and only while the client is running
1490 2013-04-04 12:10:10 * JWU42 nods
1491 2013-04-04 12:10:14 <JWU42> thks again
1492 2013-04-04 12:10:36 <sipa> little-known trick: if you don't copy chainstate it will be rebuilt on first start
1493 2013-04-04 12:11:21 <JWU42> any benefit to rebuilding chainstate?
1494 2013-04-04 12:11:27 <JWU42> versus copying it over?
1495 2013-04-04 12:11:32 Davincij has joined
1496 2013-04-04 12:11:39 bernard75 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1497 2013-04-04 12:12:19 bernard75 has joined
1498 2013-04-04 12:12:19 bernard75 has quit (Client Quit)
1499 2013-04-04 12:13:38 berni23 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1500 2013-04-04 12:15:00 Davincij15 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1501 2013-04-04 12:15:45 <sipa> JWU42: not really, mostly for benchmarking :)
1502 2013-04-04 12:15:53 <sipa> or recovering from corruption
1503 2013-04-04 12:15:56 <JWU42> very well
1504 2013-04-04 12:16:06 <JWU42> appreciate the tip
1505 2013-04-04 12:16:42 Jere_Jones has joined
1506 2013-04-04 12:18:26 Ogig has joined
1507 2013-04-04 12:20:15 coolfengyu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1508 2013-04-04 12:20:44 coolfengyu has joined
1509 2013-04-04 12:22:24 rayvellest has joined
1510 2013-04-04 12:24:29 diki has joined
1511 2013-04-04 12:24:42 _anon has quit (Quit: _anon)
1512 2013-04-04 12:25:27 <diki> I am following the technical article on creating an address from a public key but I must be doing something wrong cause..i get wrong results..
1513 2013-04-04 12:25:58 <kadoban> diki: i found this immensely useful: http://gobittest.appspot.com/Address
1514 2013-04-04 12:26:21 <diki> kadoban: I am doing it in java :)
1515 2013-04-04 12:26:26 <kadoban> diki: also, this: https://github.com/weex/addrgen
1516 2013-04-04 12:26:30 <diki> But that site is nice yeag
1517 2013-04-04 12:26:49 <kadoban> diki: so? at least it's nice to test your partial results with, and it shows what general algorithms to use in what order
1518 2013-04-04 12:27:14 <diki> I know the order, sha256 of the public key
1519 2013-04-04 12:27:55 TradeFortress has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1520 2013-04-04 12:28:07 <diki> For my test i am using the one from https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Technical_background_of_Bitcoin_addresses
1521 2013-04-04 12:28:15 zz_qwertyoruiop is now known as qwertyoruiop
1522 2013-04-04 12:28:32 <diki> So I know the sha256 hash must start with 600 and so on
1523 2013-04-04 12:28:51 <diki> For that particular pubkey
1524 2013-04-04 12:29:10 <diki> But ffs I keep getting everything else but it..
1525 2013-04-04 12:29:22 <kadoban> diki: you're not doing your math on hex strings, right? other than that, i dunno
1526 2013-04-04 12:30:18 <diki> I copy/pasted that pubkey,convert to lower case, then to binary i.e getBytes() and then sha256
1527 2013-04-04 12:30:53 <kadoban> diki: that's not how you convert from hex to bytes
1528 2013-04-04 12:31:30 <diki> The code I have, I've used it before and it worked fine
1529 2013-04-04 12:31:39 <diki> Though i admit it was a very long time
1530 2013-04-04 12:32:05 coolfengyu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1531 2013-04-04 12:32:37 mastertheknife has joined
1532 2013-04-04 12:32:40 <kadoban> i suspect you're doing math on the ascii encoding of a hex string, you probably need to convert it to the actual number represented by that string instead
1533 2013-04-04 12:32:49 <sipa> .getBytes will just convert every hex character to one byte
1534 2013-04-04 12:33:07 <mastertheknife> hi... I think i got scammed, the scammer most likely connected to my port 8333 and sent me a fake transaction. Its not showing up on blockchain or blockexplorer
1535 2013-04-04 12:33:17 <mastertheknife> This is the raw transaction: http://pastebin.com/h65mTXM3
1536 2013-04-04 12:33:27 <sipa> mastertheknife: which client are you running?
1537 2013-04-04 12:33:36 <mastertheknife> sipa: bitcoin-qt
1538 2013-04-04 12:33:47 <mastertheknife> 0.8.1
1539 2013-04-04 12:33:50 <diki> Aha
1540 2013-04-04 12:33:55 metabyte has quit ()
1541 2013-04-04 12:34:00 <diki> There it is, hex2bin
1542 2013-04-04 12:34:04 <sipa> mastertheknife: bitcoin-qt doesn't accept invalid transactions
1543 2013-04-04 12:34:09 <sipa> it checks everything in full
1544 2013-04-04 12:34:25 <diki> Thanks guys
1545 2013-04-04 12:34:43 <mastertheknife> sipa: The seller told me to open paypal dispute, and then close it, so i can't chargeback him. I did that, and after giving me fake BTC, he disappeared
1546 2013-04-04 12:34:54 <mastertheknife> sipa: why doesn't it show up on blockchain.info or blockexplorer?
1547 2013-04-04 12:35:04 <mastertheknife> I can't find anything about the transaction ID except on my own client
1548 2013-04-04 12:35:21 coolfengyu has joined
1549 2013-04-04 12:35:35 <sipa> mastertheknife: how long has it been?
1550 2013-04-04 12:36:05 <diki> There we go..
1551 2013-04-04 12:36:15 <diki> Everything is fine now.
1552 2013-04-04 12:36:22 <mastertheknife> sipa: 2 hours i guess
1553 2013-04-04 12:36:38 <mastertheknife> sipa: I know confirmations take time, even days, but i always had the transaction show up on blockchain.info right away
1554 2013-04-04 12:37:17 <mastertheknife> transaction ID: 5b47050c1adc70c78978e24a58759465cf6b41ea80e6242e5aba9844316faed9
1555 2013-04-04 12:37:48 <kadoban> mastertheknife: https://blockchain.info/tx/5b47050c1adc70c78978e24a58759465cf6b41ea80e6242e5aba9844316faed9
1556 2013-04-04 12:38:14 <kadoban> mastertheknife: i broadcast it for you using their raw tx thing, haha *shrug*
1557 2013-04-04 12:38:55 <sipa> seems it doesn't satisfy the relay rules
1558 2013-04-04 12:39:00 Detritus has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1559 2013-04-04 12:39:00 <sipa> too low fee
1560 2013-04-04 12:39:13 <mastertheknife> um so wait
1561 2013-04-04 12:39:15 <mastertheknife> its real ?
1562 2013-04-04 12:39:24 <sipa> how do you mean it
1563 2013-04-04 12:39:27 <sipa> 's real?
1564 2013-04-04 12:39:29 <mastertheknife> its not a scam ?
1565 2013-04-04 12:39:34 <sipa> bitcoin-qt doesn't accept invalid transactions
1566 2013-04-04 12:39:35 <mastertheknife> its showing up on blockchain.info now
1567 2013-04-04 12:39:39 <mastertheknife> what happened?
1568 2013-04-04 12:39:54 datagutt has joined
1569 2013-04-04 12:40:08 <sipa> the transaction probably didn't reach blockchain.info, as many nodes on the network didn't relay it
1570 2013-04-04 12:40:21 Detritus has joined
1571 2013-04-04 12:40:22 <kadoban> mastertheknife: i put in the hex from your paste here: https://blockchain.info/pushtx i really don't know if it'll get confirmed, but that's why it showed up on blockchain
1572 2013-04-04 12:40:39 <sipa> you'll likely have to wait until the input confirms first
1573 2013-04-04 12:42:46 <sipa> mastertheknife: how did they send you this transaction?
1574 2013-04-04 12:44:18 <mastertheknife> sipa: I bought BTC and the seller sent the BTC directly from his mtgox account
1575 2013-04-04 12:44:50 <sipa> well, my node received the transaction around 1h56m ago, and relayed it to 112 peers
1576 2013-04-04 12:44:53 Belxjander has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1577 2013-04-04 12:44:57 <sipa> no idea why it didn't reach blockchain.info
1578 2013-04-04 12:45:30 <Jere_Jones> sipa: How do you tell when your node received it and how many peers it relayed it to?
1579 2013-04-04 12:46:10 <sipa> Jere_Jones: i checked debug.log
1580 2013-04-04 12:46:41 <sipa> 2013-04-04 10:25:03 CTxMemPool::accept() : accepted 5b47050c1a (poolsz 1054)
1581 2013-04-04 12:46:41 <Jere_Jones> Ok. I was hoping there was an rpc to do that. Log parsing makes sense.
1582 2013-04-04 12:46:45 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1583 2013-04-04 12:47:11 <mastertheknife> sipa: Thank you very much, i really appreciate your help, i'm relax now :)
1584 2013-04-04 12:47:17 rdymac has joined
1585 2013-04-04 12:47:19 <mastertheknife> also kadoban and everyone else in this channel
1586 2013-04-04 12:48:01 rdymac has quit (Client Quit)
1587 2013-04-04 12:48:19 ralphtheninja has joined
1588 2013-04-04 12:50:51 jdnavarro has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1589 2013-04-04 12:51:43 chazmichaels has joined
1590 2013-04-04 12:54:59 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1591 2013-04-04 12:56:07 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
1592 2013-04-04 12:56:15 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (Changing host)
1593 2013-04-04 12:56:15 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
1594 2013-04-04 13:00:21 fanquake has joined
1595 2013-04-04 13:00:53 abueesp has joined
1596 2013-04-04 13:01:16 abueesp is now known as Guest1169
1597 2013-04-04 13:02:02 metabyte has joined
1598 2013-04-04 13:02:04 Guest1169 has quit (Client Quit)
1599 2013-04-04 13:03:03 chazmichaels has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1600 2013-04-04 13:03:25 daybyter has joined
1601 2013-04-04 13:04:25 basylib has joined
1602 2013-04-04 13:09:16 safra has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1603 2013-04-04 13:10:33 ActiveMember has joined
1604 2013-04-04 13:12:21 viperhr1 has joined
1605 2013-04-04 13:13:20 duckybsd has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1606 2013-04-04 13:15:07 fanquake has left ()
1607 2013-04-04 13:16:57 djworth has joined
1608 2013-04-04 13:17:18 ActiveMember has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1609 2013-04-04 13:17:46 kalleboo has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
1610 2013-04-04 13:18:13 drizztbsd has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1611 2013-04-04 13:19:05 Phraust has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1612 2013-04-04 13:19:31 Phraust has joined
1613 2013-04-04 13:20:09 drizztbsd has joined
1614 2013-04-04 13:20:09 drizztbsd has quit (Changing host)
1615 2013-04-04 13:20:09 drizztbsd has joined
1616 2013-04-04 13:21:14 BlackPrapor has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1617 2013-04-04 13:22:39 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1618 2013-04-04 13:22:45 BlackPrapor has joined
1619 2013-04-04 13:23:18 ovidiusoft has joined
1620 2013-04-04 13:23:42 egis has joined
1621 2013-04-04 13:23:48 normanrichards has joined
1622 2013-04-04 13:24:24 safra has joined
1623 2013-04-04 13:24:37 <egis> morning, how should one send btc from php script?
1624 2013-04-04 13:25:31 canoon has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1625 2013-04-04 13:27:05 <egis> ohh, I see that you need to communicate with bitcoind daemon. Am I on correct path?
1626 2013-04-04 13:28:18 <n1c> Yeah
1627 2013-04-04 13:28:24 basylib has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
1628 2013-04-04 13:28:28 <n1c> Or you could integrate with one of the many services providing API's
1629 2013-04-04 13:28:53 <egis> yet I'm not sure how those public api's will be able to access my wallet :/
1630 2013-04-04 13:29:15 <egis> nor do I want them to :)
1631 2013-04-04 13:29:29 Cusipzzz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1632 2013-04-04 13:30:25 sagax_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1633 2013-04-04 13:30:56 <egis> or are you talking about web-wallets, n1c ?
1634 2013-04-04 13:31:02 <n1c> Yeah.
1635 2013-04-04 13:31:32 sagax_ has joined
1636 2013-04-04 13:33:57 cron0 has joined
1637 2013-04-04 13:34:18 cron0 has left ()
1638 2013-04-04 13:34:28 realazthat has joined
1639 2013-04-04 13:34:33 ActiveMember has joined
1640 2013-04-04 13:34:40 ActiveMember has quit (Client Quit)
1641 2013-04-04 13:36:08 darkee_ is now known as darkee
1642 2013-04-04 13:36:28 banghouse has joined
1643 2013-04-04 13:36:55 sydna has joined
1644 2013-04-04 13:37:55 <SomeoneWeird> is it possible to see when a transaction was created?
1645 2013-04-04 13:37:59 <SomeoneWeird> (not broadcasted)
1646 2013-04-04 13:38:07 bernard75 has joined
1647 2013-04-04 13:38:07 <sipa> no
1648 2013-04-04 13:38:18 <sipa> well, yes, if you created it yourself
1649 2013-04-04 13:38:33 cc_8 has joined
1650 2013-04-04 13:38:33 cc_8 is now known as alphaguru
1651 2013-04-04 13:38:37 <SomeoneWeird> didn't
1652 2013-04-04 13:38:37 <SomeoneWeird> thanks
1653 2013-04-04 13:38:48 snakie has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1654 2013-04-04 13:40:27 snakie has joined
1655 2013-04-04 13:40:58 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1656 2013-04-04 13:41:31 whiterabbit has joined
1657 2013-04-04 13:41:32 i2pRelay has joined
1658 2013-04-04 13:44:00 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1659 2013-04-04 13:44:01 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1660 2013-04-04 13:44:02 whiterabbit is now known as wrabbit
1661 2013-04-04 13:45:45 ovidiusoft has joined
1662 2013-04-04 13:46:30 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
1663 2013-04-04 13:47:23 has quit (Clown|!Clown@unaffiliated/clown/x-0272709|Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1664 2013-04-04 13:47:54 has joined
1665 2013-04-04 13:47:54 has quit (Clown|!~clown@static-87-79-93-140.netcologne.de|Changing host)
1666 2013-04-04 13:47:54 has joined
1667 2013-04-04 13:49:02 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1668 2013-04-04 13:49:33 i2pRelay has joined
1669 2013-04-04 13:51:08 andreas__ has joined
1670 2013-04-04 13:51:48 daybyter has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1671 2013-04-04 13:52:09 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
1672 2013-04-04 13:52:23 BlackPrapor has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1673 2013-04-04 13:55:43 egis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1674 2013-04-04 13:57:04 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1675 2013-04-04 13:57:31 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1676 2013-04-04 13:57:36 i2pRelay has joined
1677 2013-04-04 13:59:11 Guest75259 has joined
1678 2013-04-04 13:59:47 jaequery has joined
1679 2013-04-04 14:02:32 n1c has quit (Quit: laters)
1680 2013-04-04 14:02:39 normanrichards has quit ()
1681 2013-04-04 14:03:57 agricocb has joined
1682 2013-04-04 14:05:08 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1683 2013-04-04 14:05:39 i2pRelay has joined
1684 2013-04-04 14:08:18 graingert has joined
1685 2013-04-04 14:08:23 graingert has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1686 2013-04-04 14:08:48 graingert has joined
1687 2013-04-04 14:08:48 graingert has quit (Changing host)
1688 2013-04-04 14:08:48 graingert has joined
1689 2013-04-04 14:11:50 neo2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1690 2013-04-04 14:13:09 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1691 2013-04-04 14:13:13 jdnavarro has joined
1692 2013-04-04 14:13:20 <graingert> ?OTR?v2?
1693 2013-04-04 14:13:29 tockitj has quit (Changing host)
1694 2013-04-04 14:13:29 tockitj has joined
1695 2013-04-04 14:13:41 i2pRelay has joined
1696 2013-04-04 14:15:32 BlackPrapor has joined
1697 2013-04-04 14:15:55 canoon has joined
1698 2013-04-04 14:16:55 kapiteined has joined
1699 2013-04-04 14:17:56 stikonas has joined
1700 2013-04-04 14:20:22 bernard75 has quit ()
1701 2013-04-04 14:20:38 qeb has joined
1702 2013-04-04 14:21:12 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1703 2013-04-04 14:21:31 manet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1704 2013-04-04 14:21:43 i2pRelay has joined
1705 2013-04-04 14:21:43 _dr has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1706 2013-04-04 14:21:58 manet has joined
1707 2013-04-04 14:22:17 OPrime has joined
1708 2013-04-04 14:23:07 BlueMatt_ is now known as BlueMatt
1709 2013-04-04 14:23:08 BlueMatt has quit (Changing host)
1710 2013-04-04 14:23:08 BlueMatt has joined
1711 2013-04-04 14:26:29 Guest75259 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1712 2013-04-04 14:26:39 andytoshi has joined
1713 2013-04-04 14:26:41 manet has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1714 2013-04-04 14:26:55 saulimus has joined
1715 2013-04-04 14:27:50 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1716 2013-04-04 14:29:16 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1717 2013-04-04 14:29:49 djworth has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1718 2013-04-04 14:30:46 i2pRelay has joined
1719 2013-04-04 14:31:03 normanrichards has joined
1720 2013-04-04 14:31:08 BlackPrapor has left ("Once you know what it is you want to be true, instinct is a very useful device for enabling you to know that it is")
1721 2013-04-04 14:31:24 BlackPrapor has joined
1722 2013-04-04 14:33:08 <realazthat> graingert: hey, I fixed the README
1723 2013-04-04 14:33:21 <realazthat> thanks for pointing that out :D
1724 2013-04-04 14:33:36 <flyingkiwiguy> did you run the test suite to confirm no regressions? <grin>
1725 2013-04-04 14:34:20 <realazthat> lol
1726 2013-04-04 14:35:02 rdymac has joined
1727 2013-04-04 14:37:03 Cusipzzz has joined
1728 2013-04-04 14:37:26 Cusipzzz is now known as Guest29084
1729 2013-04-04 14:37:42 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1730 2013-04-04 14:38:08 <realazthat> it would be nice if there was a publically available bitcoind
1731 2013-04-04 14:38:14 <realazthat> for r/o queries ofc
1732 2013-04-04 14:38:24 <realazthat> I mean, as a web service
1733 2013-04-04 14:38:42 <sydna> to what end?
1734 2013-04-04 14:38:58 <realazthat> so I can develop tools without running bitcoind
1735 2013-04-04 14:39:05 <realazthat> see, this machine just don't have the diskspace
1736 2013-04-04 14:39:05 i2pRelay has joined
1737 2013-04-04 14:39:17 <realazthat> and my internet is on the fritz, so I am not connected to my LAN
1738 2013-04-04 14:39:25 <realazthat> I usually run it on another machine
1739 2013-04-04 14:39:41 <realazthat> so now I don't have access to a running bitcoind
1740 2013-04-04 14:40:12 <JWU42> for $5 a month you can get a VPS with plenty of storage and RAM for testing
1741 2013-04-04 14:40:22 <sydna> a $5 DigitalOcean instance will get you that
1742 2013-04-04 14:40:30 <realazthat> too poor
1743 2013-04-04 14:40:30 <sydna> heck, you can use it for two months for free
1744 2013-04-04 14:40:33 <JWU42> our minds think alike ;)
1745 2013-04-04 14:40:50 <sydna> sign up with SSDTWEET, get $11 credit, use for free for two months
1746 2013-04-04 14:41:00 <JWU42> sydna: hrm
1747 2013-04-04 14:41:10 * JWU42 doesn't know them
1748 2013-04-04 14:41:17 MobPhone_ has quit (Quit: -a- pissed)
1749 2013-04-04 14:41:29 <sydna> dirt cheap, 20GB of SSD, 512Mb of RAM, unmetered bandwidth
1750 2013-04-04 14:42:01 <JWU42> shows 1TB
1751 2013-04-04 14:42:08 <JWU42> and is it OpenVZ?
1752 2013-04-04 14:42:23 <JWU42> seems to just be hosting not /root
1753 2013-04-04 14:42:57 <JWU42> ahh KVM
1754 2013-04-04 14:42:59 <sydna> where does it say 1TB?
1755 2013-04-04 14:43:00 <JWU42> missed that
1756 2013-04-04 14:43:14 <JWU42> https://www.digitalocean.com/pricing
1757 2013-04-04 14:43:16 <sydna> I'm not sure what they are running, CPUs show as QEMU
1758 2013-04-04 14:43:31 qeb has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1759 2013-04-04 14:43:48 jgarzik has quit (Quit: long weekend vacation)
1760 2013-04-04 14:44:14 <JWU42> I am happy with my 4core 2GB / 2TB VPS for now
1761 2013-04-04 14:44:14 n1c has joined
1762 2013-04-04 14:44:22 <JWU42> $7 a month
1763 2013-04-04 14:44:28 <sydna> oh of course. they're just good for doing insane things on
1764 2013-04-04 14:44:37 andreas__ has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1765 2013-04-04 14:44:40 <sydna> 15 instances gets your scraping done FAST
1766 2013-04-04 14:44:57 * JWU42 isn't that technical ;)
1767 2013-04-04 14:45:27 <sydna> I abuse their servers because they are cheap.
1768 2013-04-04 14:45:27 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1769 2013-04-04 14:46:03 optimator_ is now known as optimator
1770 2013-04-04 14:46:14 canoon has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1771 2013-04-04 14:46:36 i2pRelay has joined
1772 2013-04-04 14:46:54 <JWU42> heh
1773 2013-04-04 14:47:05 <JWU42> will give them a few month trial
1774 2013-04-04 14:47:09 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
1775 2013-04-04 14:47:51 Elyria has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1776 2013-04-04 14:48:37 <realazthat> hmm wait I actually have some bitcoins
1777 2013-04-04 14:48:37 graingert has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
1778 2013-04-04 14:48:44 <realazthat> maybe I'll spend some on a VPS
1779 2013-04-04 14:49:23 <helo> i've recently upgraded to a 512mb vps, which seems just barely big enough to run bitcoind... if i don't care about abusing swap :/
1780 2013-04-04 14:49:53 <sydna> how on earth could you survive with less?
1781 2013-04-04 14:50:36 <helo> all i ran was irssi
1782 2013-04-04 14:51:02 Diablo-D3 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1783 2013-04-04 14:51:14 <sydna> bouncer. got it.
1784 2013-04-04 14:51:14 BTCOxygen has joined
1785 2013-04-04 14:51:33 <sydna> easier just to get a free EC2 instance
1786 2013-04-04 14:51:47 <helo> looks like running a dedicated full node vps costs me about $20/mo
1787 2013-04-04 14:52:00 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1788 2013-04-04 14:52:07 Darin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1789 2013-04-04 14:52:10 <gavinandresen> realazthat: http://blockchain.info/api/json_rpc_api
1790 2013-04-04 14:52:25 <BTCOxygen> gavinandresen: Hi
1791 2013-04-04 14:52:28 <BTCOxygen> Small question
1792 2013-04-04 14:52:28 Darin has joined
1793 2013-04-04 14:52:29 <gavinandresen> realazthat: ⦠but if you use that it means you're trusting the data you're getting from them
1794 2013-04-04 14:52:30 <sipa> gavinandresen: that would be very ironic, if you knew what realazthat is making :)
1795 2013-04-04 14:52:48 <BTCOxygen> gavinandresen: Are there any service to explorer the blocks of testnet ?
1796 2013-04-04 14:52:53 <gavinandresen> making a wallet competitor? that would be ironic....
1797 2013-04-04 14:53:08 <realazthat> gavinandresen: ah cool :D
1798 2013-04-04 14:53:11 <realazthat> sipa: haha
1799 2013-04-04 14:53:15 <sydna> is there a web wallet that HASNT been hacked in the last week?
1800 2013-04-04 14:53:24 <sydna> other than bc.info
1801 2013-04-04 14:53:25 <realazthat> https://github.com/realazthat/overblock
1802 2013-04-04 14:53:26 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1803 2013-04-04 14:53:27 <sipa> gavinandresen: no, a blockexplorer site, served by a python script that relies on bitcoidn RPC
1804 2013-04-04 14:54:09 <sydna> wouldn't the python-based Abe explorer be faster?
1805 2013-04-04 14:54:33 <gavinandresen> sipa: ah⦠okey dokey
1806 2013-04-04 14:55:16 <licnep> is there a chart of the most used web wallets?
1807 2013-04-04 14:55:41 <sydna> imagine a pie chart where it's all blockchain.info
1808 2013-04-04 14:56:02 <licnep> yea, that's what i thought, more or less..
1809 2013-04-04 14:56:23 <sydna> strongcoin, easywallet, instawallet all got popped within the last month
1810 2013-04-04 14:57:27 saulimus has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1811 2013-04-04 14:57:31 <licnep> hope blockchain stays strong.. i've got some btc there :|
1812 2013-04-04 14:58:16 i2pRelay has joined
1813 2013-04-04 14:59:17 <gavinandresen> "We have extra server space and processing power to offer to the project. Is there a way that resources are offered?" <--- I feel like I should say yes, but I don't think we need it....
1814 2013-04-04 15:00:09 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yea, the foundation server is already more cpu than we need...
1815 2013-04-04 15:00:17 <BlueMatt> and I dont think we will need any more bw there
1816 2013-04-04 15:00:22 pgvoorhees has joined
1817 2013-04-04 15:00:31 <JWU42> helo: you can find deals on LEB for $7/month for 2GBRAM
1818 2013-04-04 15:01:48 <helo> JWU42: nice!
1819 2013-04-04 15:02:11 ZeroIce has joined
1820 2013-04-04 15:02:16 <BlueMatt> with 0.8.2, you probably wont need >1g to run a node
1821 2013-04-04 15:02:42 <JWU42> I am running one node on a 1GB rig - does OK
1822 2013-04-04 15:04:22 cc_8 has joined
1823 2013-04-04 15:04:44 <BTCOxygen> JWU42: link ?
1824 2013-04-04 15:04:47 cc_8 has quit (Client Quit)
1825 2013-04-04 15:04:48 <helo> BlueMatt: yeah... git head is using 260MB with 40 connections right now :)
1826 2013-04-04 15:04:58 <JWU42> BTCOxygen: to what?
1827 2013-04-04 15:05:00 <BTCOxygen> JWU42: Oh, you mean lowendbox ?
1828 2013-04-04 15:05:03 <JWU42> yes
1829 2013-04-04 15:05:07 <BTCOxygen> <JWU42> helo: you can find deals on LEB for $7/month for 2GBRAM
1830 2013-04-04 15:05:07 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1831 2013-04-04 15:05:32 <JWU42> sydna: their BW is crap though - DigitalOcean
1832 2013-04-04 15:05:34 <sipa> realazthat: i may want to try running overblock on my site :)
1833 2013-04-04 15:05:35 BCB has joined
1834 2013-04-04 15:05:37 i2pRelay has joined
1835 2013-04-04 15:05:44 <sipa> realazthat: though i fear it's an easy dos attack vector...
1836 2013-04-04 15:05:47 <realazthat> sipa: lol np
1837 2013-04-04 15:05:49 <sydna> JWU42: I've not has an issue with that
1838 2013-04-04 15:05:52 <realazthat> sounds great :D
1839 2013-04-04 15:05:58 <realazthat> yeah it might be haha
1840 2013-04-04 15:06:22 <JWU42> sydna: compared to what i am seeing on other sites -- then again I am using a .NL server and some of the tests are in the US
1841 2013-04-04 15:06:29 <JWU42> other VPSs
1842 2013-04-04 15:06:44 sydna has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1843 2013-04-04 15:06:49 <JWU42> 2 months for free - how can u go wrong
1844 2013-04-04 15:08:36 <helo> :5503
1845 2013-04-04 15:08:39 <helo> :/
1846 2013-04-04 15:10:25 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1847 2013-04-04 15:10:55 vigilyn3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1848 2013-04-04 15:11:04 Neskia has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1849 2013-04-04 15:11:09 vigilyn has joined
1850 2013-04-04 15:11:09 vigilyn has quit (Changing host)
1851 2013-04-04 15:11:09 vigilyn has joined
1852 2013-04-04 15:11:20 Nesetalis has joined
1853 2013-04-04 15:12:24 Jere_Jones has quit ()
1854 2013-04-04 15:12:29 stretchwarren has joined
1855 2013-04-04 15:12:44 ZeroIce has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1856 2013-04-04 15:13:14 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1857 2013-04-04 15:13:48 i2pRelay has joined
1858 2013-04-04 15:14:32 manet has joined
1859 2013-04-04 15:16:09 hatsaresilly has joined
1860 2013-04-04 15:16:35 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1861 2013-04-04 15:17:14 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (away!~PiZZaMaN2@unaffiliated/pizzaman2k|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1862 2013-04-04 15:17:17 GFJF has joined
1863 2013-04-04 15:17:20 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
1864 2013-04-04 15:17:23 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (Changing host)
1865 2013-04-04 15:17:23 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
1866 2013-04-04 15:17:44 <jh2o2389> can someone point me to the testnet client?
1867 2013-04-04 15:17:58 hatsaresilly1 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1868 2013-04-04 15:18:08 <jh2o2389> or do I configure the normal client for the testnet?
1869 2013-04-04 15:18:20 <realazthat> -testnet I think?
1870 2013-04-04 15:18:40 ZeroIce has joined
1871 2013-04-04 15:18:43 <jh2o2389> ah, thank you realazthat!
1872 2013-04-04 15:19:24 <realazthat> or in the bitcoin.conf
1873 2013-04-04 15:19:28 <realazthat> testnet=1, I think
1874 2013-04-04 15:19:40 tyn has joined
1875 2013-04-04 15:21:03 Ashaman has joined
1876 2013-04-04 15:21:10 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1877 2013-04-04 15:21:14 <jh2o2389> -testnet Use the test network
1878 2013-04-04 15:21:19 graingert has joined
1879 2013-04-04 15:21:19 graingert has quit (Changing host)
1880 2013-04-04 15:21:19 graingert has joined
1881 2013-04-04 15:21:46 i2pRelay has joined
1882 2013-04-04 15:22:01 jaequery has joined
1883 2013-04-04 15:22:28 <jh2o2389> sometimes its very easy .-)
1884 2013-04-04 15:22:40 mappum has joined
1885 2013-04-04 15:26:14 Belxjander has joined
1886 2013-04-04 15:26:18 Blxjander has joined
1887 2013-04-04 15:26:19 m0mchil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1888 2013-04-04 15:27:39 BlackPrapor has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1889 2013-04-04 15:28:37 Anduck has joined
1890 2013-04-04 15:28:40 Blxjander has quit (Client Quit)
1891 2013-04-04 15:29:11 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1892 2013-04-04 15:29:36 TD has joined
1893 2013-04-04 15:29:48 i2pRelay has joined
1894 2013-04-04 15:31:17 Guest29084 is now known as Cusipzzz
1895 2013-04-04 15:31:28 Cusipzzz has quit (Changing host)
1896 2013-04-04 15:31:28 Cusipzzz has joined
1897 2013-04-04 15:31:52 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1898 2013-04-04 15:35:00 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
1899 2013-04-04 15:35:50 <graingert> jh2o2389: ?
1900 2013-04-04 15:36:43 bernard75 has joined
1901 2013-04-04 15:37:13 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1902 2013-04-04 15:37:43 i2pRelay has joined
1903 2013-04-04 15:39:33 BlackPrapor has joined
1904 2013-04-04 15:41:40 <jh2o2389> graingert: I mean, sometimes it feels like "not to see the wood for the trees".
1905 2013-04-04 15:43:28 OPrime has quit (Quit: OPrime)
1906 2013-04-04 15:43:48 graingert has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
1907 2013-04-04 15:44:22 FredEE has joined
1908 2013-04-04 15:45:14 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1909 2013-04-04 15:45:44 i2pRelay has joined
1910 2013-04-04 15:46:14 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1911 2013-04-04 15:47:20 Davincij has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1912 2013-04-04 15:47:51 <realazthat> so I been thinking for another project
1913 2013-04-04 15:47:59 <realazthat> someone gave me this idea
1914 2013-04-04 15:48:17 ColinT has joined
1915 2013-04-04 15:48:21 <realazthat> to make a bitcoin "client" that would use the RPC interface, but use a local wallet
1916 2013-04-04 15:48:46 <realazthat> thus, you can "federate" the blockchain to a trusted central bitcoind
1917 2013-04-04 15:50:39 remotemass has joined
1918 2013-04-04 15:50:52 <realazthat> would this be useful?
1919 2013-04-04 15:50:52 <remotemass> How to use Python command line to find sha256("of a string?") in hexa
1920 2013-04-04 15:51:13 <helo> realazthat: separating the backend from the wallet has been discussed quite a bit, and it's a very good idea
1921 2013-04-04 15:51:18 normanrichards has quit ()
1922 2013-04-04 15:51:24 <helo> realazthat: but it's quite a bit of work
1923 2013-04-04 15:51:32 <realazthat> helo: I think I can do this with the RPC API
1924 2013-04-04 15:51:50 <realazthat> the most complicated thing for me (unkown how it works) is the p2p part
1925 2013-04-04 15:52:21 <realazthat> keeping a wallet file and making transactions (sending them to the RPC API) seems quite simple
1926 2013-04-04 15:52:26 <realazthat> or am I missing something
1927 2013-04-04 15:52:53 <realazthat> remotemass: I can tell you how to do it in python, dunno about the command line
1928 2013-04-04 15:53:05 [\\\] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1929 2013-04-04 15:53:15 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1930 2013-04-04 15:53:31 <remotemass> realazthat: please do. I will help it out. how to do it in python?
1931 2013-04-04 15:53:46 i2pRelay has joined
1932 2013-04-04 15:55:02 kapiteined has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 17.0.2/20130121170851])
1933 2013-04-04 15:56:36 [\\\] has joined
1934 2013-04-04 15:57:27 Descry has joined
1935 2013-04-04 15:57:51 dsong has joined
1936 2013-04-04 15:57:55 rdymac has joined
1937 2013-04-04 15:58:38 <realazthat> remotemass: http://codepad.org/OMhj8ru4
1938 2013-04-04 15:59:41 ThomasV_ has joined
1939 2013-04-04 15:59:54 <jh2o2389> remotemass: python -c 'import hashlib; print(hashlib.sha256("foo").hexdigest());' works for me.
1940 2013-04-04 16:01:08 ThomasV has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1941 2013-04-04 16:01:17 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1942 2013-04-04 16:01:30 ThomasV_ has quit (Client Quit)
1943 2013-04-04 16:01:49 i2pRelay has joined
1944 2013-04-04 16:01:56 ThomasV has joined
1945 2013-04-04 16:01:57 dsong is now known as calx
1946 2013-04-04 16:02:24 Cache_Money has joined
1947 2013-04-04 16:02:41 GFJF has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1948 2013-04-04 16:05:22 owowo has joined
1949 2013-04-04 16:06:17 n5 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1950 2013-04-04 16:06:55 n5 has joined
1951 2013-04-04 16:07:34 hydrogenesis has joined
1952 2013-04-04 16:08:35 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1953 2013-04-04 16:09:20 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1954 2013-04-04 16:09:51 i2pRelay has joined
1955 2013-04-04 16:10:37 n1c has quit (Quit: maybe later.)
1956 2013-04-04 16:10:49 Mr_G has joined
1957 2013-04-04 16:13:31 n5 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1958 2013-04-04 16:13:37 witwit has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1959 2013-04-04 16:14:09 <Jezzz> is there no way to set a timeout on jsonrpc.serviceproxy?
1960 2013-04-04 16:14:24 <Jezzz> don't see anything timeout related in the api docs
1961 2013-04-04 16:14:41 topace_ has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
1962 2013-04-04 16:15:33 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1963 2013-04-04 16:17:18 pgvoorhees has left ("Leaving")
1964 2013-04-04 16:17:23 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1965 2013-04-04 16:17:54 i2pRelay has joined
1966 2013-04-04 16:18:14 Happzz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1967 2013-04-04 16:18:14 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
1968 2013-04-04 16:19:22 arij_ is now known as arij
1969 2013-04-04 16:19:32 arij has quit (Changing host)
1970 2013-04-04 16:19:33 arij has joined
1971 2013-04-04 16:19:46 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1972 2013-04-04 16:19:46 t7 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1973 2013-04-04 16:20:51 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1974 2013-04-04 16:21:29 GenTarkin has joined
1975 2013-04-04 16:22:08 shwoop has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1976 2013-04-04 16:22:31 hydrogenesis has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
1977 2013-04-04 16:22:46 <GenTarkin> so, given my recent experience with bitcoin dust tx's in my wallet.... whats going to happen once .00005 n smaller for example, become a significant amount of $
1978 2013-04-04 16:22:55 <GenTarkin> noones gonna wanna pay a .0005 tx
1979 2013-04-04 16:22:58 <GenTarkin> fee
1980 2013-04-04 16:23:01 ZeroIce has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1981 2013-04-04 16:23:06 Happzz has joined
1982 2013-04-04 16:23:19 bibbybob has joined
1983 2013-04-04 16:23:37 MWNinja has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1984 2013-04-04 16:23:43 <gmaxwell> then don't pay a 0.0005 tx fee?
1985 2013-04-04 16:23:44 _MWNinja is now known as MWNinja
1986 2013-04-04 16:23:54 <rdponticelli1> Jezzz: You need to edit the source to change the timeout
1987 2013-04-04 16:23:58 <GenTarkin> but you have to in order for nodes to even relay the tx
1988 2013-04-04 16:24:12 Descry has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1989 2013-04-04 16:24:35 <Jezzz> rdponticelli: thx. was just looking for that
1990 2013-04-04 16:24:37 polaman has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1991 2013-04-04 16:24:41 <GenTarkin> Im just thinkin bout when smaller tx's become the future...
1992 2013-04-04 16:24:48 <gmaxwell> GenTarkin: yes, presumably nodes will lower the amount they consider non-zero, should the value go up enough.
1993 2013-04-04 16:24:55 <GenTarkin> I have like 100+ outputs unspent that equal .005BTC....in one of my addy's
1994 2013-04-04 16:25:04 <gmaxwell> its not something that has to happen synchrnously in the network.
1995 2013-04-04 16:25:06 <GenTarkin> theres no way I can move them out, except tediiously one at a time
1996 2013-04-04 16:25:16 ayalan has joined
1997 2013-04-04 16:25:27 ltrottier has joined
1998 2013-04-04 16:25:27 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1999 2013-04-04 16:25:35 <gmaxwell> GenTarkin: sure you can, you can make one transaction which spends them all into a new output.
2000 2013-04-04 16:25:52 <GenTarkin> yes but the fee required is way bigger than .005
2001 2013-04-04 16:25:56 <GenTarkin> therefore I cant
2002 2013-04-04 16:26:04 <gmaxwell> uh... it shouldn't be.
2003 2013-04-04 16:26:04 <GenTarkin> cuz the tx itself would be like 20kb in size
2004 2013-04-04 16:26:08 i2pRelay has joined
2005 2013-04-04 16:26:23 <gmaxwell> yes, that would imply a fee of .001
2006 2013-04-04 16:26:38 <GenTarkin> ok, so it was like bleh let me see what it says
2007 2013-04-04 16:26:53 <GenTarkin> it wouldnt let me move them, said it required a sum larger than what was in the wallet
2008 2013-04-04 16:26:54 <GenTarkin> in fees
2009 2013-04-04 16:27:08 <GenTarkin> so, for me its not a big deal Im just thinking forward
2010 2013-04-04 16:27:13 <kadoban> how strict is the bitcoind client in terms of relaying? also, does it rely on it's own config file setting of tx fee, or is it hardcoded what it will relay?
2011 2013-04-04 16:27:17 <GenTarkin> what happens when .00001 becomes like 1$
2012 2013-04-04 16:27:21 daybyter has joined
2013 2013-04-04 16:27:55 <GenTarkin> theres a hardcoded limit of sorts, because I created a 34kb tx on blockchain.info wallet, no fee
2014 2013-04-04 16:28:00 <GenTarkin> and nodes refused to relay it
2015 2013-04-04 16:28:07 <GenTarkin> so, I had to double spend it on my bitcoin client
2016 2013-04-04 16:28:12 <GenTarkin> w/ tx fee
2017 2013-04-04 16:28:21 <GenTarkin> and the network relayed that
2018 2013-04-04 16:28:34 <GenTarkin> , confirmed it and of course didnt confirm the ones in limbo
2019 2013-04-04 16:29:08 <GenTarkin> thats my point tho
2020 2013-04-04 16:29:09 <gmaxwell> Transactions >10kb are 09:05 < GenTarkin> what happens when .00001 becomes like 1$
2021 2013-04-04 16:29:17 <gmaxwell> oops ignore the first part.
2022 2013-04-04 16:29:24 <gmaxwell> I already answered that above.
2023 2013-04-04 16:29:36 <GenTarkin> what happens when people need to spend tons of small unspent outputs due to btc value being insane...
2024 2013-04-04 16:29:49 <GenTarkin> noones gonna wanna go through what I had to do to get their btc
2025 2013-04-04 16:29:50 <GenTarkin> rofl
2026 2013-04-04 16:30:00 Darin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2027 2013-04-04 16:30:15 Tantadruj has joined
2028 2013-04-04 16:30:40 <kadoban> GenTarkin: if they become worth "enough", the required tx will be low enough that you can do it easily. until then, doesn't really matter, right?
2029 2013-04-04 16:31:06 <GenTarkin> well shit thats like saying, sure theres an issue but lets not worry bout it till it breaks
2030 2013-04-04 16:31:11 <GenTarkin> rofl
2031 2013-04-04 16:31:36 <kadoban> not really...it's like saying there isn't an issues because it's a few cents...and if it ever becomes enough to care about, then you can collect it
2032 2013-04-04 16:31:51 <BlueMatt> we are working on it, but its not the only priority...
2033 2013-04-04 16:31:58 <gmaxwell> GenTarkin: I answered your question above.
2034 2013-04-04 16:31:58 <gmaxwell> 09:02 <@gmaxwell> GenTarkin: yes, presumably nodes will lower the amount they consider non-zero, should the value go up enough.
2035 2013-04-04 16:32:16 <GenTarkin> that happens transparently?
2036 2013-04-04 16:32:23 <GenTarkin> or would it be code change?
2037 2013-04-04 16:32:33 <BlueMatt> presumably nodes will change their value of "good enough fee" based on historical acceptance
2038 2013-04-04 16:32:40 <gmaxwell> Code/configuration change.
2039 2013-04-04 16:32:54 <gmaxwell> (as of right now)
2040 2013-04-04 16:32:56 <GenTarkin> thats what I thought, would it require any sort of fork
2041 2013-04-04 16:33:05 <gmaxwell> No. I answered that too
2042 2013-04-04 16:33:10 ZeroIce has joined
2043 2013-04-04 16:33:13 <BlueMatt> no
2044 2013-04-04 16:33:15 <GenTarkin> ah didnt see that, ok that works
2045 2013-04-04 16:33:25 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2046 2013-04-04 16:33:26 <GenTarkin> I just wanted to get clarificatio on the issue
2047 2013-04-04 16:33:39 <gmaxwell> 09:03 <@gmaxwell> its not something that has to happen synchronously in the network.
2048 2013-04-04 16:33:55 <GenTarkin> oh didnt know that was towards me =P
2049 2013-04-04 16:33:56 i2pRelay has joined
2050 2013-04-04 16:34:04 <gmaxwell> Right now its better if the policy is more consistent because nodes have no way to tell you that they refused your txn...
2051 2013-04-04 16:34:09 <gmaxwell> but nothing forces it to be.
2052 2013-04-04 16:34:27 <gmaxwell> The fee was already lowered onceâ it was previously 0.01
2053 2013-04-04 16:34:43 <GenTarkin> otoh Im also curious
2054 2013-04-04 16:34:49 <GenTarkin> if fees keep needing to be lowered...
2055 2013-04-04 16:34:56 john5223 has joined
2056 2013-04-04 16:34:57 <gmaxwell> and when it went to $30 the first time it was lowered to 0.0005... though because the value went back down it was really too low for a long time
2057 2013-04-04 16:35:06 <GenTarkin> what does that say bout the future of mining, because I thought fees were compensation for miners after no more blocks are mined
2058 2013-04-04 16:35:18 <gmaxwell> and we got a lot of fairly abusive uses of the blockchain.
2059 2013-04-04 16:35:24 <GenTarkin> or sorry, no more block reward
2060 2013-04-04 16:35:33 <gmaxwell> GenTarkin: they're needing to be lowered because the value of bitcoin has gone up.
2061 2013-04-04 16:36:09 <gmaxwell> A miner who was previously happy with a 0.01 fee will be just as happy with a 0.0005 fee if the value has gone up 0.01/0.0005 times.
2062 2013-04-04 16:36:09 <GenTarkin> I get taht....
2063 2013-04-04 16:36:20 <remotemass> jh2o2389: can you please DCC me a .py file with that so that I can try it out?
2064 2013-04-04 16:36:22 <GenTarkin> oh ok got ya
2065 2013-04-04 16:36:45 <GenTarkin> so, miners will be screwed if all 21mil blocks are mined and BTCs value stays a steady 10$....
2066 2013-04-04 16:36:50 <GenTarkin> 21mil coins .. sorry
2067 2013-04-04 16:37:01 <BlueMatt> no
2068 2013-04-04 16:37:18 <BlueMatt> fees wont be static, they will be calculated based on what miners are currently charging
2069 2013-04-04 16:37:19 <GenTarkin> then u just raise the tx fee?
2070 2013-04-04 16:37:34 Tantadruj has quit (Quit: DoubleRecall Turns Paywalls Into Advertising Dollars - NYTimes.com http://nyti.ms/odHOgy)
2071 2013-04-04 16:38:00 <GenTarkin> oh, I forgot, miners can set the fee?
2072 2013-04-04 16:38:06 <gmaxwell> well for realying I don't think it would depend at all on what miners are charging, it would depend on the existing backlog of transactions.
2073 2013-04-04 16:38:09 <remotemass> realazthat: does that code at http://codepad.org/OMhj8ru4 work for you? It is outputing error
2074 2013-04-04 16:38:13 <GenTarkin> which is obviously hidden from me cuz I pool mine
2075 2013-04-04 16:38:56 <realazthat> remotemass: yes
2076 2013-04-04 16:38:58 <realazthat> what error?
2077 2013-04-04 16:39:05 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: what I meant...kind of indirectly set by miners
2078 2013-04-04 16:39:08 <GenTarkin> it will seem like a hard balancing act to play
2079 2013-04-04 16:39:20 <GenTarkin> specially since fees are done on tx size rather than value transmitted
2080 2013-04-04 16:40:05 <GenTarkin> or sum transmitted rather
2081 2013-04-04 16:41:11 <gmaxwell> GenTarkin: yes, because the resources consumed aren't related to the value transmitted.
2082 2013-04-04 16:41:23 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2083 2013-04-04 16:41:25 <GenTarkin> ah thats true
2084 2013-04-04 16:41:27 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2085 2013-04-04 16:41:39 <GenTarkin> well that works well for miners
2086 2013-04-04 16:41:44 <GenTarkin> but what about the merchant / user side
2087 2013-04-04 16:41:47 <jh2o2389> remotemass: you asked for a command line version in python. so you can execute the line "python -c 'import hashlib; print(hashlib.sha256("foo").hexdigest());'" in the shell. for sure you can execute the python commands in a .py script. take a look at http://stackoverflow.com/questions/13757779/discrepancy-between-sha256sum-executable-and-pycrypto-library
2088 2013-04-04 16:41:55 i2pRelay has joined
2089 2013-04-04 16:42:02 <GenTarkin> 3000+ inputs for 1BTC output vs 1 single BTC output....
2090 2013-04-04 16:42:02 BlackPrapor has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2091 2013-04-04 16:42:11 <GenTarkin> huge fee difference on economical side of things
2092 2013-04-04 16:42:14 <GenTarkin> and user wouldnt know why
2093 2013-04-04 16:42:59 BlackPrapor has joined
2094 2013-04-04 16:43:04 <gmaxwell> Thats a matter where improved education helps... but ultimately is a very good thing when costs align with impact... encourages more efficient behavior.
2095 2013-04-04 16:43:07 <BlueMatt> software can automagically merge coins when it receives too much dust output and gets a high enough priority, then txn sent will be ok
2096 2013-04-04 16:43:19 <GenTarkin> see now, that would be sweet
2097 2013-04-04 16:43:28 <GenTarkin> thats what I think the solution would be, some sort of auto prune wallet function
2098 2013-04-04 16:43:53 <GenTarkin> or auto dust cleaning, whatever you wanna call it
2099 2013-04-04 16:43:55 <gmaxwell> GenTarkin: it's generally better to just groom in dust in existing transactions rather than make more transactions.
2100 2013-04-04 16:44:08 <GenTarkin> where the client software can batch unspent outputs together to a point of avoiding fees
2101 2013-04-04 16:44:12 <gmaxwell> e.g. if you're going to pay someone and get change, might as well sweep in some dust too.
2102 2013-04-04 16:44:18 <GenTarkin> and creating as many tx's needed to gather them into 1 unspent output
2103 2013-04-04 16:44:39 <BlueMatt> again though, there are a hundred other priorities, doing it properly (ie being careful not to do it too often, not create way more txn as a result, etc) is hard and other things are more important...
2104 2013-04-04 16:45:00 <BlueMatt> GenTarkin: feel free to write the code :)
2105 2013-04-04 16:45:00 <GenTarkin> I realize...Im just voicing a longterm concern =)
2106 2013-04-04 16:45:19 <GenTarkin> haha I dont code crazy stuff like bitcoin =P not that skilled haha
2107 2013-04-04 16:45:21 Cache_Money has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2108 2013-04-04 16:45:29 <BlueMatt> you and a million others have voiced the same concern
2109 2013-04-04 16:45:36 <BlueMatt> its been discussed ad nauseum...
2110 2013-04-04 16:45:49 <GenTarkin> ok, didnt realize =) ... just experienced my first dust issue so yeah...
2111 2013-04-04 16:45:55 <GenTarkin> just wanted to get clarification
2112 2013-04-04 16:46:00 <ColinT> To make a transaction - does the bitcoin client have to do any hashing? Or is that left for a special category of network users (miners) - I'm wondering about what will happen when there are no coins left or it's become too difficult to discover them
2113 2013-04-04 16:46:37 <jh2o2389> remotemass: copy the python statements in a foo.py file and execute the file with python foo.py. But if you want to pass argument "foo" to the python script, like "python foo.py foor" you need to use kind of the ARG[0] vars. I'm not a python programmer, maybe #python will do the trick.
2114 2013-04-04 16:46:50 <kadoban> ColinT: it doesn't have to do work on a scale anywhere near mining difficulty, does that answer your first part?
2115 2013-04-04 16:47:26 <ColinT> Not exactly, I want to know if peopel are forced to hash - because hashing and adding to the blockchain is required for the network to work right?
2116 2013-04-04 16:47:46 <ColinT> Right now there's enough incentive to mine - but what about when there no longer is
2117 2013-04-04 16:48:02 <GenTarkin> then bitcoin dies
2118 2013-04-04 16:48:05 <ColinT> Worries me a bit if that hashing power is required
2119 2013-04-04 16:48:25 <GenTarkin> when incentive to mine drops....
2120 2013-04-04 16:48:28 <kadoban> ColinT: yes, that's how the network works. creating and sending a transaction does not require mining, it's fast and easy for the computer to do
2121 2013-04-04 16:48:32 <GenTarkin> people will dropout, difficulty will lower
2122 2013-04-04 16:48:48 <kadoban> ColinT: and as to what will motivate miners, that's what transaction fees are for after the block reward becomes less prominent
2123 2013-04-04 16:48:51 <ColinT> true GenTarkin I guess right - but what about when coins are all gone
2124 2013-04-04 16:48:56 <GenTarkin> depending on how low it goes
2125 2013-04-04 16:49:01 <GenTarkin> people w/ hashing power...
2126 2013-04-04 16:49:08 <GenTarkin> enough hashing power could easily 51% attempt it
2127 2013-04-04 16:49:25 <ColinT> yeah but what if no one pays that transaction fee - what if there isn't enough incentive for people to offer the fee
2128 2013-04-04 16:49:27 <GenTarkin> and the risk of bitcoin dying ... skyrockets
2129 2013-04-04 16:49:30 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2130 2013-04-04 16:49:44 <GenTarkin> then bitcoin will be abandoned in favor of another coin
2131 2013-04-04 16:49:58 <ColinT> That's what I think will happen - it's a fixable flaw
2132 2013-04-04 16:50:00 i2pRelay has joined
2133 2013-04-04 16:50:06 <GenTarkin> well
2134 2013-04-04 16:50:10 <ColinT> But not nice to hear that it exists in bitcoin
2135 2013-04-04 16:50:12 <GenTarkin> it probably wont happen
2136 2013-04-04 16:50:16 <gmaxwell> ColinT: What??
2137 2013-04-04 16:50:21 <kadoban> ColinT: even now people pay fees, i'm not sure why you think they'll refuse to do so
2138 2013-04-04 16:50:32 <gmaxwell> ColinT: what is a "a fixable flaw"?
2139 2013-04-04 16:50:35 <ColinT> Well because they aren't forced to
2140 2013-04-04 16:50:43 <GenTarkin> they are forced too above a certain tx size
2141 2013-04-04 16:50:48 <GenTarkin> like the problem I faced
2142 2013-04-04 16:50:52 <gmaxwell> GenTarkin: no, they're not. not really.
2143 2013-04-04 16:50:54 <GenTarkin> I didnt pay a tx fee and it wasnt relayed
2144 2013-04-04 16:51:15 <ColinT> It gives your transaction priority or something right? But people don't require priority - it works anyways - so that to me is a problem
2145 2013-04-04 16:51:36 <kadoban> ColinT: they're not forced to, but there is an incentive to pay fees (actually getting your transactions confirmed)
2146 2013-04-04 16:51:38 <GenTarkin> people do require priority
2147 2013-04-04 16:51:52 <sipa> ColinT: eventually, someone has to pay for the security of the network; currently, that is being paid by inflating the currency (subsidy to miners), but it has to be taken over by something else
2148 2013-04-04 16:51:53 <ColinT> Okay - so it speeds up confirmation?
2149 2013-04-04 16:51:57 ayalan has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2150 2013-04-04 16:51:58 <ColinT> THat's nice I guess
2151 2013-04-04 16:51:59 <gmaxwell> ColinT: it works anyways only because the transaction load is low right nowâ and even now people show up complaining about long delays from time to time.
2152 2013-04-04 16:52:08 <sipa> ColinT: if no one is interested in paying for security, there won't be any
2153 2013-04-04 16:52:13 <GenTarkin> if the tx landscape booms.... and bitcoin is adopted more n more, there will naturally be more demand for certain parties tx's to get prioritized above others
2154 2013-04-04 16:52:40 Anduck has joined
2155 2013-04-04 16:52:40 Anduck has quit (Changing host)
2156 2013-04-04 16:52:40 Anduck has joined
2157 2013-04-04 16:52:42 <GenTarkin> so those people will pay higher tx fees voluntarily
2158 2013-04-04 16:53:11 graingert has joined
2159 2013-04-04 16:53:11 graingert has quit (Changing host)
2160 2013-04-04 16:53:11 graingert has joined
2161 2013-04-04 16:54:08 FredEE has joined
2162 2013-04-04 16:56:26 <ColinT> Hmm, interesting - still seems to me like a roundabout way to solve a problem - not a real elegant solution - and maybe not even a solution - I don't know how you guarantee that the amount people pay to prioritize transactions will justify the cost of providing enough hashing to make the whole thing operate
2163 2013-04-04 16:56:59 <kadoban> ColinT: it seems pretty elegant to me. basically market forces decide
2164 2013-04-04 16:57:15 denisx has joined
2165 2013-04-04 16:57:31 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2166 2013-04-04 16:57:40 <ColinT> I think market forces may decide to move on to the next crypto-currency
2167 2013-04-04 16:57:42 <GenTarkin> if people dont wish to hash
2168 2013-04-04 16:57:44 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2169 2013-04-04 16:57:46 <GenTarkin> then difficulty goes down
2170 2013-04-04 16:57:54 <GenTarkin> which makes hashing more profitable again
2171 2013-04-04 16:57:57 Tantadruj has joined
2172 2013-04-04 16:58:01 * jh2o2389 nods
2173 2013-04-04 16:58:03 <GenTarkin> and more people naturally want to jump on the bandwagon of hashing
2174 2013-04-04 16:58:08 i2pRelay has joined
2175 2013-04-04 16:58:19 <GenTarkin> the only risk, as I mentioned earlier
2176 2013-04-04 16:58:20 copumpkin has joined
2177 2013-04-04 16:58:24 <GenTarkin> is if diff drops way too fast
2178 2013-04-04 16:58:32 <GenTarkin> and fe select people w/ lots of hashing power are left
2179 2013-04-04 16:58:37 <GenTarkin> they can easily destroy btc from the inside out
2180 2013-04-04 16:59:01 MiningBuddy has quit (Quit: ( Quit ))
2181 2013-04-04 16:59:29 <ColinT> Yeah I read and understand that as well - he who has the most computing power - owns the network - and right now that's a small group of mining operations (correct me if I'm wrong)
2182 2013-04-04 17:00:06 <ColinT> When it was more intended to be every client on the network
2183 2013-04-04 17:00:10 <graingert> ColinT: they arn't really a group
2184 2013-04-04 17:00:20 <sipa> having the most computing power doesn't mean you _own_ the network
2185 2013-04-04 17:00:23 <GenTarkin> well ... btcguild is a large chunk atm
2186 2013-04-04 17:00:25 <graingert> ColinT: it was never intended for every client to hash
2187 2013-04-04 17:00:29 <GenTarkin> but they would have to have over 50%
2188 2013-04-04 17:00:30 <helo> the miners are worthless unless the rest of the network accepts what they produce
2189 2013-04-04 17:00:30 <sipa> first of all, miners do not set the rules; the network does
2190 2013-04-04 17:00:31 <GenTarkin> of hashing power
2191 2013-04-04 17:00:46 <GenTarkin> to do any wrong
2192 2013-04-04 17:00:58 <GenTarkin> so, what I think will happen long before 21mil coins are mined
2193 2013-04-04 17:01:00 <sipa> miners just decide about one thing: the order of otherwise valid transactions (up to delaying one indefinitely)
2194 2013-04-04 17:01:09 <GenTarkin> btc will be largely adopted to the point governments see it as a major threat
2195 2013-04-04 17:01:16 <sipa> and with a majority of hashpower you do get to decide that ,indeed
2196 2013-04-04 17:01:20 <ltrottier> Pithy: "There is one basic truth about #bitcoin, and this is it: if it's worth anything at all, it's worth quite a bit." https://twitter.com/kortical/status/319844574593957888
2197 2013-04-04 17:01:20 <GenTarkin> than any government can simply plop down tons of money on hashing power
2198 2013-04-04 17:01:26 <GenTarkin> 51% the network
2199 2013-04-04 17:01:28 <GenTarkin> and its done
2200 2013-04-04 17:01:31 <ColinT> I think that will happen GenTarkin yes
2201 2013-04-04 17:01:34 <helo> ColinT: e.g. if the miners started producing blocks that sent funds somewhere without being signed, they would be ignored (and laughed at)
2202 2013-04-04 17:02:07 <GenTarkin> so, bitcoin is still at any powerful governments mercy
2203 2013-04-04 17:02:11 <graingert> helo: miners do that all the time, it's called the coinbase tx
2204 2013-04-04 17:02:42 <GenTarkin> but thats the only valid type =P
2205 2013-04-04 17:03:08 <sipa> and very strictly limited by the network rules
2206 2013-04-04 17:03:17 <helo> s/funds/funds from outputs/
2207 2013-04-04 17:03:56 <GenTarkin> so, heres a question to the devs
2208 2013-04-04 17:04:16 <GenTarkin> is the life / death of the blockchain solely in your hands
2209 2013-04-04 17:04:33 <GenTarkin> because I know you can tell the current nodes that must be required to update to a certain version
2210 2013-04-04 17:04:35 <diki> Good were the days when an ordinary chap could mine with a single 5850
2211 2013-04-04 17:04:40 <Eliel> it's not solely in any one person's or group's hands.
2212 2013-04-04 17:04:40 <GenTarkin> and in that new version you could fuck everything up
2213 2013-04-04 17:05:04 <ColinT> I guess understanding the numbers involved might help me better understand if there will be an equilibrium between the demand for the payment fee to prioritize transactions or speed up confirmations, and the energy required to provide enough processing power for the network to operate to be offered up to claim the fees
2214 2013-04-04 17:05:12 <ColinT> THanks for all your help - I've got more research to do :D
2215 2013-04-04 17:05:24 <Eliel> GenTarkin: that would at most cause temporary confusion.
2216 2013-04-04 17:05:29 <diki> Mining 2 blocks in a week was just the best thing ever :)
2217 2013-04-04 17:05:32 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2218 2013-04-04 17:05:37 <GenTarkin> nice diki
2219 2013-04-04 17:05:38 john5223 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2220 2013-04-04 17:06:02 i2pRelay has joined
2221 2013-04-04 17:06:14 <GenTarkin> how would it be temporary confusino
2222 2013-04-04 17:06:27 <GenTarkin> lets say the new version just refuses to work, puprosely
2223 2013-04-04 17:06:28 tyn has joined
2224 2013-04-04 17:06:37 <GenTarkin> nodes no longer relay, blah bla bla
2225 2013-04-04 17:06:52 <GenTarkin> the network in effect is simply broke
2226 2013-04-04 17:06:55 <sipa> GenTarkin: the only thing that's really a problem is a block chain split
2227 2013-04-04 17:07:07 <diki> sipa: nah
2228 2013-04-04 17:07:12 <Eliel> GenTarkin: simple, people would stop trusting the dev team that put that version out. Someone (or many someones) would release a version that works. People would move to that. End of story
2229 2013-04-04 17:07:21 <sipa> GenTarkin: which means two groups of nodes, with significant hash power each, which don't accept eachother's blocks
2230 2013-04-04 17:07:34 <GenTarkin> so in other words....to that point it is centralized
2231 2013-04-04 17:08:02 <sipa> you're free to run any client you want, but as a miner you must make sure you obey the rules enforced by the network
2232 2013-04-04 17:08:09 <sipa> it is not developers that enforce the rules
2233 2013-04-04 17:08:16 <sipa> it's the people who choose to run the client
2234 2013-04-04 17:08:32 <GenTarkin> but the devs have a killall switch in the nodes they can turn on and force update to new version or whatnot
2235 2013-04-04 17:08:38 <helo> ColinT: the energy used to mine is funded by the 25btc block reward and fees... the fees are tiny right now, so it's mostly just the 25btc block reward. so mining power with a particular technology is roughly proportional to the value.
2236 2013-04-04 17:08:40 <sipa> GenTarkin: no, we don't
2237 2013-04-04 17:08:41 systemParanoid has joined
2238 2013-04-04 17:08:42 <diki> sipa: lol, when you refer to miners you mean pool Ops, right?
2239 2013-04-04 17:08:46 <ahf> are these rules well-formalized as such?
2240 2013-04-04 17:08:51 <GenTarkin> you dont?!?!
2241 2013-04-04 17:08:51 <diki> And rich boys with asics
2242 2013-04-04 17:08:52 <sipa> diki: yes
2243 2013-04-04 17:08:55 <GenTarkin> I remember a year back
2244 2013-04-04 17:09:02 <GenTarkin> I opened my client and had a big red message at top
2245 2013-04-04 17:09:03 <sipa> diki: i don't mean hashers; i mean those producing blocks
2246 2013-04-04 17:09:05 <GenTarkin> saying it wouldnt work till I updated
2247 2013-04-04 17:09:07 <jh2o2389> I think as long as the network evaluates the changes to be made, it is not a centralization.
2248 2013-04-04 17:09:10 <sipa> GenTarkin: there is an alert system
2249 2013-04-04 17:09:11 topace has joined
2250 2013-04-04 17:09:15 <sipa> GenTarkin: but we can't kill clients
2251 2013-04-04 17:09:27 <diki> sipa: that would be miners, still
2252 2013-04-04 17:09:28 <Eliel> GenTarkin: there is no force-upgrade nor force shutdown.
2253 2013-04-04 17:09:28 <helo> ColinT: if that mining power happens to be insufficient to protect against an attack, then too bad. nobody's expected to be paying for hashing power just to keep the network "secure enough"
2254 2013-04-04 17:09:30 Conflict has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2255 2013-04-04 17:09:36 <ColinT> helo - Okay question - without hashing power, do confirmations take longer?
2256 2013-04-04 17:09:41 <GenTarkin> hrmmmm ok
2257 2013-04-04 17:09:50 <sipa> ColinT: if the hash power goes down, the difficulty follows
2258 2013-04-04 17:09:54 <diki> ColinT: how does never sound?
2259 2013-04-04 17:10:01 <ColinT> Hehe great
2260 2013-04-04 17:10:05 <ColinT> Okay that balances thing out then :D
2261 2013-04-04 17:10:21 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Sayonara)
2262 2013-04-04 17:10:23 <ColinT> So people are forced to pay that fee
2263 2013-04-04 17:10:23 <GenTarkin> yeah w/o hashing power or much less lets say(cuz people will always hash as long as its a legit coin)
2264 2013-04-04 17:10:28 emryss has joined
2265 2013-04-04 17:10:31 <GenTarkin> block finding rate will dive
2266 2013-04-04 17:10:34 <Eliel> GenTarkin: that message was informational only.
2267 2013-04-04 17:10:35 <GenTarkin> till next diff retarget
2268 2013-04-04 17:10:37 <GenTarkin> which would take forever
2269 2013-04-04 17:10:38 <GenTarkin> lol
2270 2013-04-04 17:10:42 <graingert> ColinT: the 0.0005 fee is forced for spammy tx by the client
2271 2013-04-04 17:10:48 <ColinT> If people don't finance the processing power required to make a transaction - it will *never* be completed correct?
2272 2013-04-04 17:10:52 <graingert> and also by people forwarding tx
2273 2013-04-04 17:11:02 <diki> GenTarkin: actually, without hashing the network dies
2274 2013-04-04 17:11:04 <GenTarkin> ok eliel
2275 2013-04-04 17:11:07 <Eliel> GenTarkin: the reason that client wouldn't work is that the rest of the network had upgraded to a version that's no longer compatible.
2276 2013-04-04 17:11:11 <diki> I.e no blocks and no retarget
2277 2013-04-04 17:11:16 <graingert> ColinT: people are forced to finance it by devaluing their currency by allowing the reward tx
2278 2013-04-04 17:11:16 MiningBuddy has joined
2279 2013-04-04 17:11:16 MiningBuddy has quit (Changing host)
2280 2013-04-04 17:11:16 MiningBuddy has joined
2281 2013-04-04 17:11:20 <diki> And no confirmations
2282 2013-04-04 17:11:24 <GenTarkin> but I meant w/ very little hashing
2283 2013-04-04 17:11:30 <GenTarkin> cuz people will hash to the bitter end
2284 2013-04-04 17:11:39 <diki> True.
2285 2013-04-04 17:11:40 <graingert> ColinT: when people print bitcoin it devalues everyone else's
2286 2013-04-04 17:11:48 <GenTarkin> its not like one day people will hash full bore
2287 2013-04-04 17:11:50 <graingert> s/print/mint/
2288 2013-04-04 17:11:54 <GenTarkin> and the next everyone stops completely
2289 2013-04-04 17:12:06 agricocb has joined
2290 2013-04-04 17:12:14 <graingert> GenTarkin: people used to do that to Namecoin a lot
2291 2013-04-04 17:12:20 <ColinT> Okay that answers it for me - maybe I'm not phrasing it correctly - but without hashing power - transactions cannot be made - and that fee you can offer up will automatically adjust to pay for the exact computing power required to make your transaction
2292 2013-04-04 17:12:22 <GenTarkin> well that would happen in the event of an epocalyse lol
2293 2013-04-04 17:12:32 <graingert> ColinT: no
2294 2013-04-04 17:12:38 <graingert> ColinT: the fee is up to you
2295 2013-04-04 17:12:38 <GenTarkin> apocalypse lol
2296 2013-04-04 17:12:44 <GenTarkin> fuck I cant spellt
2297 2013-04-04 17:12:46 <ColinT> I know graingert
2298 2013-04-04 17:12:47 <GenTarkin> haha
2299 2013-04-04 17:12:48 <graingert> ColinT: the fee required by miners is up to the miners
2300 2013-04-04 17:12:51 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2301 2013-04-04 17:12:53 <ColinT> Again I'm not phrasing that correctly
2302 2013-04-04 17:13:14 <ColinT> Yeah - it'll automatically be set by the market based on their costs
2303 2013-04-04 17:13:18 <ColinT> Is what I mean
2304 2013-04-04 17:13:20 <graingert> ColinT: and the computing power to make a tx is basically 0
2305 2013-04-04 17:13:31 <ColinT> sorry I have a way of connecting that together to make sense of it
2306 2013-04-04 17:13:38 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2307 2013-04-04 17:13:41 <graingert> ColinT: because it's a Merkle root of tx that is hashed over
2308 2013-04-04 17:13:50 agricocb has quit (Client Quit)
2309 2013-04-04 17:13:51 SwedFTP has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2310 2013-04-04 17:13:56 <graingert> ColinT: so adding tx is basically free
2311 2013-04-04 17:14:05 <GenTarkin> another nice threat to btc longetivity is the robustness of sha256 =P
2312 2013-04-04 17:14:14 <GenTarkin> if a collision is detected.... yeah that would suck
2313 2013-04-04 17:14:19 <graingert> ColinT: just takes longer to transfer the block
2314 2013-04-04 17:14:21 <ColinT> So we can imagine that one day the client may have a feature that automatically sets the transaction fee to the minimum amount that will be required to compelte the transaction in satisfactoy time for the user
2315 2013-04-04 17:14:23 <sipa> collisions don't bother us
2316 2013-04-04 17:14:25 <sipa> only preimages
2317 2013-04-04 17:14:26 alphaguru has quit ()
2318 2013-04-04 17:14:34 <bonks> Hey guys, could someone help me figure out why bitcoind keeps exiting? This is on Debian 6. Debug log: http://pastebin.com/tSVw8bQU
2319 2013-04-04 17:14:42 i2pRelay has joined
2320 2013-04-04 17:14:43 <graingert> !google preimage
2321 2013-04-04 17:14:44 <gribble> Preimage attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preimage_attack>; Image (mathematics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_(mathematics)>; Preimage -- from Wolfram MathWorld: <http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Preimage.html>
2322 2013-04-04 17:14:47 <GenTarkin> oh got ya sipa =P gotta go read up on my attack types
2323 2013-04-04 17:15:24 <sipa> and preimages are _much_ harder than collisions :)
2324 2013-04-04 17:15:33 Anduck has joined
2325 2013-04-04 17:15:33 Anduck has quit (Changing host)
2326 2013-04-04 17:15:33 Anduck has joined
2327 2013-04-04 17:15:47 <sipa> bonks: looks like a perfectly clean shutdown
2328 2013-04-04 17:15:49 polaman has joined
2329 2013-04-04 17:16:21 <bonks> sipa: All I did was 'bitcoind --daemon', watched the debug.log and it exited within 2 minutes by itself
2330 2013-04-04 17:16:37 <diki> sipa: collisions are fun
2331 2013-04-04 17:16:41 <diki> :D
2332 2013-04-04 17:16:48 <ColinT> I like it - that's clever :D - If no one offers up a fee and to pay for the hashing when all bitcoins are discovered or it's become too difficult to mine - and there's not enough hashing power left on the network for it to process a transaction quickly enough or work reliably - then it just won't
2333 2013-04-04 17:17:05 <ColinT> Sorry for stating the same thing 10 different times in 10 different ways hah - I'm just trying to make sure I understand it
2334 2013-04-04 17:17:57 <ColinT> SO in essence you will be forced to *pay* for the required hashing pay to make the network operate - but of course this will be done in an efficient, market driven way
2335 2013-04-04 17:18:34 MiningBuddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2336 2013-04-04 17:18:39 <Eliel> GenTarkin: I thought epocalypse was intentional :) It's a nice play on the word that fits in the context.
2337 2013-04-04 17:18:56 <GenTarkin> lol it is ? I didnt realize
2338 2013-04-04 17:19:10 <Eliel> GenTarkin: e-pocalypse :)
2339 2013-04-04 17:19:18 <GenTarkin> OH HAHAHAHA! nice
2340 2013-04-04 17:19:49 <gmaxwell> ColinT: but how do you know what hashrate is required?
2341 2013-04-04 17:19:56 <gmaxwell> or how much coin that maps to?
2342 2013-04-04 17:20:11 <GenTarkin> so basically a preimage is ... given hash of value A, find another value that produces the same hash?
2343 2013-04-04 17:20:19 <GenTarkin> whereas collision is just 2 random values hashing to the same thing
2344 2013-04-04 17:20:34 <Habbie> GenTarkin, yes
2345 2013-04-04 17:20:37 <GenTarkin> ah cool
2346 2013-04-04 17:20:43 <GenTarkin> yeah I can see how preimage would be harder then
2347 2013-04-04 17:21:15 <ColinT> gmaxwell - well I'm asking questions here I don't know anything - but I'm assuming that hashing somehow factors in to how long it takes to complete a transaction
2348 2013-04-04 17:21:34 <GenTarkin> complete or confirm
2349 2013-04-04 17:21:39 <ColinT> As long as it's a factor - no hashing power = no transaction
2350 2013-04-04 17:21:40 <GenTarkin> cuz hashing doesnt factor in to relaying a tx
2351 2013-04-04 17:21:40 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2352 2013-04-04 17:21:43 <GenTarkin> just confirming afaik
2353 2013-04-04 17:21:46 <ColinT> so it will balance out
2354 2013-04-04 17:21:47 <gmaxwell> GenTarkin: a preimage is given a value find a value that when hashed produces it, a second preimage is given a value and its hash, find a second value. A collision is find two values that give the same hash.
2355 2013-04-04 17:22:07 i2pRelay has joined
2356 2013-04-04 17:22:24 <GenTarkin> ah got ya gmaxwell
2357 2013-04-04 17:22:25 <gmaxwell> ColinT: its only a local factor. The difficulty of the network is adaptive. If the hashing rate goes down the network will lower the requirement.
2358 2013-04-04 17:22:49 tsche has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2359 2013-04-04 17:22:59 tsche has joined
2360 2013-04-04 17:23:25 <ColinT> Okay sure - there's that too
2361 2013-04-04 17:23:32 <GenTarkin> do both preimage types apply to btc or just one?
2362 2013-04-04 17:23:37 nsillik_ has joined
2363 2013-04-04 17:23:47 <gmaxwell> It can lower it to the point where a single gpu could be producing all the blocks.
2364 2013-04-04 17:23:53 <ColinT> sweet
2365 2013-04-04 17:24:04 <gmaxwell> ColinT: thats not really all that sweet.
2366 2013-04-04 17:24:12 <ColinT> haha well it wouldn't happen
2367 2013-04-04 17:24:16 <diki> gmaxwell: at this rate, the only reason that could happen is a global catastrophe
2368 2013-04-04 17:24:17 <gmaxwell> because it means someone with two gpus (in that case) could rewrite history.
2369 2013-04-04 17:24:29 Tug has joined
2370 2013-04-04 17:24:38 <gmaxwell> GenTarkin: mostly, only second preimage attacks are really all that interesting in the context of Bitcoin.
2371 2013-04-04 17:24:44 <ColinT> everyone wants to rewrite history
2372 2013-04-04 17:24:54 <diki> ColinT: very true
2373 2013-04-04 17:24:54 <ColinT> so we're guaranteed a fight for it between more than one GPU :D
2374 2013-04-04 17:25:09 <diki> I wish i had hoarded my coins more
2375 2013-04-04 17:25:31 <ColinT> does the network get less secure when it lowers this hashing requirement?
2376 2013-04-04 17:25:33 <gmaxwell> uh. people warring to attack doesn't actualy produce security.
2377 2013-04-04 17:25:36 nsillik has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2378 2013-04-04 17:25:36 nsillik_ is now known as nsillik
2379 2013-04-04 17:25:39 <gmaxwell> ColinT: yes.
2380 2013-04-04 17:25:51 <GenTarkin> so, how would that relate to bitcoin?
2381 2013-04-04 17:25:55 <ColinT> I mean - I know if fewer people are hashing - it's fewer people are in control - but I mean outside of that
2382 2013-04-04 17:26:02 <GenTarkin> a block + its hash then find another block that has the same hash ? or something
2383 2013-04-04 17:26:47 <gmaxwell> ColinT: if the hashrate is lower it means that it takes less energy to reverse transactions and replace them with new transactions.
2384 2013-04-04 17:27:41 <MC-Droid> are we measuring security in dollar or joules now?
2385 2013-04-04 17:28:05 <gmaxwell> GenTarkin: for example, if you write a transaction paying alice and I can find second preimages of sha256 with whatever structure I want, I can rebind your signature so you pay me instead.
2386 2013-04-04 17:28:17 <gmaxwell> MC-Droid: they're the same thing. One can buy the other.
2387 2013-04-04 17:28:28 <GenTarkin> ah crazy
2388 2013-04-04 17:28:40 f00b_ar has joined
2389 2013-04-04 17:28:44 <MC-Droid> well joules is cooler
2390 2013-04-04 17:28:48 <gonffen> does it really make sense to measure security in dollars?
2391 2013-04-04 17:28:58 <gonffen> electricity prices are quite volatile as the day progresses
2392 2013-04-04 17:29:10 <gonffen> albeit predictable
2393 2013-04-04 17:29:11 <MC-Droid> take an average
2394 2013-04-04 17:29:14 <gmaxwell> gonffen: to a first order approximation.
2395 2013-04-04 17:29:27 <gmaxwell> You can assume that an attacker will attack at the best price for them in any case.
2396 2013-04-04 17:29:37 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2397 2013-04-04 17:29:45 graingert has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2398 2013-04-04 17:30:10 i2pRelay has joined
2399 2013-04-04 17:30:29 <MC-Droid> this is why mesasuring in hashrate is dumb and why asics were not only inevitable but essential
2400 2013-04-04 17:30:49 <MC-Droid> joules it is
2401 2013-04-04 17:31:00 <GenTarkin> ?
2402 2013-04-04 17:31:48 robocoin has joined
2403 2013-04-04 17:31:58 <gonffen> gmaxwell: I can accept that but I still think it makes more sense to measure in Joules than dollars :P
2404 2013-04-04 17:33:24 graingert has joined
2405 2013-04-04 17:33:24 graingert has quit (Changing host)
2406 2013-04-04 17:33:24 graingert has joined
2407 2013-04-04 17:34:58 clanie has joined
2408 2013-04-04 17:35:16 bibbybob has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2409 2013-04-04 17:35:45 ovidiusoft has joined
2410 2013-04-04 17:36:01 <MC-Droid> b.i makes an estimate in megawatts, but its based on radeons
2411 2013-04-04 17:36:21 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2412 2013-04-04 17:36:30 Conflict has joined
2413 2013-04-04 17:36:58 clanie has quit (Client Quit)
2414 2013-04-04 17:37:27 PrinceCortex has joined
2415 2013-04-04 17:37:36 MiningBuddy has joined
2416 2013-04-04 17:37:41 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2417 2013-04-04 17:37:45 <gmaxwell> MC-Droid: yea, thats silly to use radeons.
2418 2013-04-04 17:38:00 brson has joined
2419 2013-04-04 17:38:11 <gonffen> Why not just stick to hashrate?
2420 2013-04-04 17:38:11 KoSoVaR has quit ()
2421 2013-04-04 17:38:16 i2pRelay has joined
2422 2013-04-04 17:39:04 ltrottier has quit (Quit: ltrottier)
2423 2013-04-04 17:39:20 <gonffen> If I'm nefarious with insane resources and decide tomorrow to toy with the blockchain, I can't get the required ASICs. I would need to go some other route anyways.
2424 2013-04-04 17:39:59 <MC-Droid> hashrate isnt really linked to dollars or jules
2425 2013-04-04 17:40:36 <MC-Droid> one day it will be linked to bitcoins, and then weve closed the loop
2426 2013-04-04 17:42:15 <MC-Droid> hashrate is only really interesting in measuring how far were outstripping the fastest supercomputer
2427 2013-04-04 17:42:23 <gmaxwell> it's always related to energy, unless you can find a way to power computers with hopes and dreams.
2428 2013-04-04 17:42:24 <MC-Droid> for giggles
2429 2013-04-04 17:42:37 <MC-Droid> in flops even
2430 2013-04-04 17:42:52 <gmaxwell> gonffen: if you can't get the required asic you have them made.
2431 2013-04-04 17:42:53 <MC-Droid> though i dont see what flops has to do with integer hashing
2432 2013-04-04 17:43:23 <gonffen> gmaxwell: Right but you *might* be able to get enough gpus faster.
2433 2013-04-04 17:43:51 <MC-Droid> hopes and dreams
2434 2013-04-04 17:43:59 <gmaxwell> gonffen: sort of moot when they use 50-200x the power. and they're actually a huge burden to operate in scale.
2435 2013-04-04 17:44:00 <gonffen> but I'm just speculating :P
2436 2013-04-04 17:44:03 <MC-Droid> you mean like the reverse computing thing?
2437 2013-04-04 17:44:53 <gmaxwell> even in the spherical cow ignoring all engineering considerations (like it not really existing) reversable computing uses energy, to reject errors.
2438 2013-04-04 17:45:40 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2439 2013-04-04 17:46:12 i2pRelay has joined
2440 2013-04-04 17:47:45 drizztbsd has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2441 2013-04-04 17:47:53 <ColinT> Does it really take ~10 minutes to create each block and therefore a confirmation? Is there no better way to ensure that a payment is confirmed before that?
2442 2013-04-04 17:48:19 <ColinT> If you offer up a fee with the transaction - does it happen quicker?
2443 2013-04-04 17:48:27 <gmaxwell> No.
2444 2013-04-04 17:48:34 <ColinT> Blocks are shared - so I'm wondering how my payment fee would speed that up...
2445 2013-04-04 17:48:37 <gmaxwell> And it takes whatever it takes, ten minutes is the average.
2446 2013-04-04 17:48:58 <GenTarkin> huh a fee cant speed up block rate
2447 2013-04-04 17:49:04 <gmaxwell> Paying higher fees keeps your transaction from getting missed in the next block and falling to a later one
2448 2013-04-04 17:49:05 <ColinT> The protocol adjusts the difficulty every block to try to make it 10 minutes right?
2449 2013-04-04 17:49:07 <Habbie> ColinT, if your fee is too low, your tx might not make it into the next block
2450 2013-04-04 17:49:11 <GenTarkin> a fee only prioritizes ur tx over other pending ones to try to get into the next block
2451 2013-04-04 17:49:14 <gmaxwell> ColinT: right.
2452 2013-04-04 17:49:19 <Habbie> ColinT, not every block - every ~2 weeks
2453 2013-04-04 17:49:32 <denisx> every 2016 blocks to be exact
2454 2013-04-04 17:49:36 <Habbie> (2016 blocks)
2455 2013-04-04 17:49:38 <Habbie> :)
2456 2013-04-04 17:49:43 <gmaxwell> (my right was to "a fee cant speed up block rate")
2457 2013-04-04 17:49:46 <ColinT> is there a quicker way to tell if your tx is making it into the next block before a confirmation?
2458 2013-04-04 17:49:50 <ColinT> or before the block is made?
2459 2013-04-04 17:50:11 <kadoban> ColinT: no. you can check some other peers and make sure it's spreading around, that's about it
2460 2013-04-04 17:50:17 <gmaxwell> ColinT: you could check if your own node would put it in a block its creating.
2461 2013-04-04 17:50:31 <gmaxwell> e.g. run the getblocktemplate rpc and see if its in there.
2462 2013-04-04 17:50:54 <ColinT> clients don't currently do that I'm guessing - but don't you think they would in the future?
2463 2013-04-04 17:51:01 Anduck has joined
2464 2013-04-04 17:51:01 Anduck has quit (Changing host)
2465 2013-04-04 17:51:01 Anduck has joined
2466 2013-04-04 17:51:04 <gmaxwell> Don't do what?
2467 2013-04-04 17:51:16 <ColinT> Check if your own node put your transaction in a block
2468 2013-04-04 17:51:29 <GenTarkin> he just said u could check =)
2469 2013-04-04 17:51:34 <gmaxwell> Sure they do, in bitcoin-qt open the console, type getblocktemplate and see if its there.
2470 2013-04-04 17:52:04 wund3r has joined
2471 2013-04-04 17:52:06 <ColinT> Yeah I'm asking a forward looking question heh - because 10 minutes seems like a long time - you'd think people would be building this feature into clients by now if it was useful
2472 2013-04-04 17:52:12 <ColinT> 10 minutes is a long time
2473 2013-04-04 17:52:40 <GenTarkin> sure its a long time for POS style tx's in resturaunts n shit
2474 2013-04-04 17:52:47 <GenTarkin> but for cross world transactions
2475 2013-04-04 17:52:54 <GenTarkin> its extremely short compared to current fiat implimentations
2476 2013-04-04 17:53:03 <ColinT> Yeah of course
2477 2013-04-04 17:53:12 <ColinT> I mean - once your tx has made it into a block - isn't that good enough to know it's going through? (at this point)
2478 2013-04-04 17:53:16 <Habbie> just learning about getblocktemplate now - and without reading all of it i have a question. Doesn't getblocktemplate enable miners to send their low-difficulty PoWs to multiple pools?
2479 2013-04-04 17:53:24 <gmaxwell> ColinT: whats your concern about 10 minutes? the transaction is communicated ~instantly... it takes time to become irreversable.
2480 2013-04-04 17:53:32 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
2481 2013-04-04 17:53:38 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
2482 2013-04-04 17:53:41 <gmaxwell> By comparison a credit card transaction takes months to become irreversable.
2483 2013-04-04 17:53:41 <GenTarkin> yeah
2484 2013-04-04 17:53:42 <ColinT> that's my concern
2485 2013-04-04 17:53:51 <GenTarkin> well....
2486 2013-04-04 17:53:54 <gmaxwell> Habbie: No.
2487 2013-04-04 17:53:55 <GenTarkin> its a bit diff for bitcoin
2488 2013-04-04 17:53:58 <Habbie> gmaxwell, thanks
2489 2013-04-04 17:53:59 <GenTarkin> as in my dust tx I created
2490 2013-04-04 17:54:00 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2491 2013-04-04 17:54:03 bernard75 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2492 2013-04-04 17:54:06 <GenTarkin> that wasnt relayed through the network
2493 2013-04-04 17:54:12 bernard75 has joined
2494 2013-04-04 17:54:18 <GenTarkin> in that case, if I walked outta a restruaunt w/ a tx in that state
2495 2013-04-04 17:54:24 Ashaman has joined
2496 2013-04-04 17:54:24 <GenTarkin> they coul dhave lost their money
2497 2013-04-04 17:54:29 <GenTarkin> cuz I could go home and double spend it
2498 2013-04-04 17:54:56 i2pRelay has joined
2499 2013-04-04 17:55:02 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2500 2013-04-04 17:55:02 <GenTarkin> which from a practical standpoint is an issue
2501 2013-04-04 17:55:03 <ColinT> I'm just wondering if the blocks have so many tx in them at this point and so many people mining to become finish the block, that one would be good enough at this point
2502 2013-04-04 17:55:05 <gmaxwell> GenTarkin: yes, and you could also write a check that clears first against your debit card while paying with it. And?
2503 2013-04-04 17:55:09 <kadoban> GenTarkin: if you pay with a credit card, you could changeback too with similar consequences
2504 2013-04-04 17:55:32 <gmaxwell> ColinT: that one what would be good enough?
2505 2013-04-04 17:55:40 <ColinT> Yeah
2506 2013-04-04 17:55:44 <ColinT> 1 confirmation
2507 2013-04-04 17:55:47 <gmaxwell> And good enough for what?
2508 2013-04-04 17:55:48 <ColinT> 1 block
2509 2013-04-04 17:55:53 KoSoVaR has joined
2510 2013-04-04 17:55:55 <GenTarkin> all Im saying is now Ive learned that a tx w/ at least 1 confirm is needed to not be taken advantage of =P
2511 2013-04-04 17:55:55 <ColinT> to trust that you've made a transaction
2512 2013-04-04 17:56:01 kapiteined has joined
2513 2013-04-04 17:56:05 <gmaxwell> Zero confirmations are fine if you trust the other party to not rip you off.
2514 2013-04-04 17:56:12 <GenTarkin> smiply to know it exists, may not be good enough
2515 2013-04-04 17:56:12 jspilman has joined
2516 2013-04-04 17:56:22 FredEE has joined
2517 2013-04-04 17:56:25 <gmaxwell> It's still relatively straightforward to conflict one block deep, see the math in the satoshi paper.
2518 2013-04-04 17:56:37 <Habbie> gmaxwell, 'copying' the PoW is prevented because the coinbasetxn is pool-specific?
2519 2013-04-04 17:56:46 <gmaxwell> Habbie: yes.
2520 2013-04-04 17:56:52 <Habbie> thanks again :)
2521 2013-04-04 17:57:03 <gmaxwell> Habbie: a pool won't pay you for a share that didn't attempt to pay them!
2522 2013-04-04 17:57:12 <Habbie> one would expect so
2523 2013-04-04 17:57:14 <gmaxwell> And especially since pools have created big consolidations. 40% hashpower can reverse six confirms with a success rate of 50%.
2524 2013-04-04 17:57:15 <Habbie> i wonder whether anyone tried
2525 2013-04-04 17:57:25 rayvellest has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2526 2013-04-04 17:57:31 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2527 2013-04-04 17:57:34 <GenTarkin> geez really gmaxwell?! thats scary
2528 2013-04-04 17:57:37 <gmaxwell> Habbie: sure, every idiot tries this. They tried it with getwork too.
2529 2013-04-04 17:57:51 <GenTarkin> guess btc aint as bullet proof as I thought =(
2530 2013-04-04 17:58:06 <Habbie> gmaxwell, ok
2531 2013-04-04 17:58:21 gagecolton has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2532 2013-04-04 17:58:45 qeb has joined
2533 2013-04-04 17:58:51 <MC-Droid> so be scared of asicminer
2534 2013-04-04 17:58:58 <GenTarkin> I fuckin hate them
2535 2013-04-04 17:59:03 <gmaxwell> GenTarkin: there is a nice program and table in bitcoin.pdf
2536 2013-04-04 17:59:07 whizter has joined
2537 2013-04-04 17:59:22 <MC-Droid> ColinT: its not really about blocks, but hash time
2538 2013-04-04 17:59:38 <ColinT> That's what I wanted to hear MC-Droid
2539 2013-04-04 17:59:40 <MC-Droid> about an hour of hash time gives you irreversibility
2540 2013-04-04 17:59:45 <GenTarkin> bitcoin.pdf .. link?
2541 2013-04-04 17:59:51 da2ce7_d2 has joined
2542 2013-04-04 17:59:59 <ColinT> But not quicker?
2543 2013-04-04 17:59:59 _dr has joined
2544 2013-04-04 17:59:59 <MC-Droid> 10 min blocks is more about propagation afaik
2545 2013-04-04 18:00:00 jtimon has joined
2546 2013-04-04 18:00:06 ProfMac has joined
2547 2013-04-04 18:00:25 <ColinT> If there's 60 times as much hasing power - does that bring it down to 1 minute?
2548 2013-04-04 18:00:45 <MC-Droid> not really
2549 2013-04-04 18:00:53 <ColinT> darn
2550 2013-04-04 18:00:57 <MC-Droid> security isnt messured in hashes
2551 2013-04-04 18:01:11 <MC-Droid> but in resources
2552 2013-04-04 18:01:17 berni23 has joined
2553 2013-04-04 18:01:17 berni23 has quit (Changing host)
2554 2013-04-04 18:01:17 berni23 has joined
2555 2013-04-04 18:01:19 <ColinT> I thought we tried to say it was earlier hah - but we shouldn't use that word *security*
2556 2013-04-04 18:01:21 <gmaxwell> relative resources
2557 2013-04-04 18:01:26 rayvellest has joined
2558 2013-04-04 18:01:31 <gmaxwell> ColinT: why? thats what it is.
2559 2013-04-04 18:01:48 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2560 2013-04-04 18:01:52 <ColinT> iunno seems vague
2561 2013-04-04 18:02:01 <MC-Droid> how much security you need is up to you
2562 2013-04-04 18:02:09 bernard75 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2563 2013-04-04 18:02:17 <ColinT> I'm wondering if I can pay for that security
2564 2013-04-04 18:02:20 <ColinT> instead of waiting an hour
2565 2013-04-04 18:02:20 da2ce7_d has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2566 2013-04-04 18:02:23 <MC-Droid> recieving coins from your bro is instant
2567 2013-04-04 18:02:29 i2pRelay has joined
2568 2013-04-04 18:02:42 <GenTarkin> colint other alt coisn set out to address the issue of 10min blocks, I think litecoin was one of them, shorter block time
2569 2013-04-04 18:02:58 <gmaxwell> I suggest you stop trying to get detailed answers for a bit and take some time to go back and understand how the system works.
2570 2013-04-04 18:03:06 <MC-Droid> you can pay to get into the next block, no more
2571 2013-04-04 18:03:12 <MC-Droid> minimum 10 mins avg
2572 2013-04-04 18:03:15 <MC-Droid> usually.less
2573 2013-04-04 18:03:40 <ColinT> RIght now the odds almost guarantee you make it into the next block without paying at all right?
2574 2013-04-04 18:03:50 <MC-Droid> nope
2575 2013-04-04 18:03:51 Phraust has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2576 2013-04-04 18:03:59 <gmaxwell> GenTarkin: that isn't just a free parameter. If the network needs more than <time between confirms> minutes to validate and propagate a block then the network will stop converging, as liquid coin demonstrated.
2577 2013-04-04 18:04:04 <MC-Droid> blocks are filling up
2578 2013-04-04 18:04:22 <GenTarkin> colint depends on how many pending tx
2579 2013-04-04 18:04:24 <gmaxwell> well, they're filling up to the soft limit miners are using at least.
2580 2013-04-04 18:04:28 Phraust has joined
2581 2013-04-04 18:04:44 <MC-Droid> satoshidice is generating like 80pc of all.txn and distorting the market
2582 2013-04-04 18:05:02 <GenTarkin> yeah wihch is fuckin weird
2583 2013-04-04 18:05:06 <GenTarkin> who gambles that much seriously
2584 2013-04-04 18:05:59 neo2 has joined
2585 2013-04-04 18:06:41 <MC-Droid> people
2586 2013-04-04 18:06:49 <MC-Droid> and bots
2587 2013-04-04 18:06:50 <neo2> what happens if two major mining pool clandestinely join forces?
2588 2013-04-04 18:07:09 <MC-Droid> nefarious shit happens
2589 2013-04-04 18:07:41 <ColinT> So the tx fee helps you make it into blocks - does it help you make sure other nodes begin to record your tx? Or is that the same thing....
2590 2013-04-04 18:07:50 PrinceCortex has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2591 2013-04-04 18:07:54 qeb has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2592 2013-04-04 18:07:59 ovidiusoft has quit (Quit: leaving)
2593 2013-04-04 18:08:01 daybyter has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2594 2013-04-04 18:08:39 Impaler has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2595 2013-04-04 18:08:58 qeb has joined
2596 2013-04-04 18:09:21 X-Scale has quit ()
2597 2013-04-04 18:09:31 manacit has quit (Changing host)
2598 2013-04-04 18:09:31 manacit has joined
2599 2013-04-04 18:09:47 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2600 2013-04-04 18:10:22 i2pRelay has joined
2601 2013-04-04 18:11:07 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2602 2013-04-04 18:11:13 jspilman has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2603 2013-04-04 18:11:15 <MC-Droid> ColinT: verifier nodes have no incentive to store your txn, and thats a bone of contention
2604 2013-04-04 18:11:31 <MC-Droid> theyre not cut into the fees system
2605 2013-04-04 18:11:38 <MC-Droid> and i dont know how they could be
2606 2013-04-04 18:11:40 bolapara_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2607 2013-04-04 18:11:51 ovidiusoft has joined
2608 2013-04-04 18:11:57 <ColinT> THanks for the smart answer MC-Droid
2609 2013-04-04 18:12:23 <MC-Droid> take it at face value
2610 2013-04-04 18:12:35 <MC-Droid> i regularly talk.bollocks
2611 2013-04-04 18:12:42 <MC-Droid> but im right afaik
2612 2013-04-04 18:12:54 <ColinT> But miners Do have an incentive to carve your txn into a block?
2613 2013-04-04 18:13:04 <MC-Droid> the fee
2614 2013-04-04 18:13:08 <ColinT> yep - k cool
2615 2013-04-04 18:13:19 <MC-Droid> but theyre all mining for subsidy atm
2616 2013-04-04 18:13:26 <ColinT> so you really do have to wait for these blocks
2617 2013-04-04 18:13:29 <MC-Droid> fees market doesnt really exist yet
2618 2013-04-04 18:13:46 <ColinT> I understand - the fees market will exist when coins are all gone or price to mine is too high
2619 2013-04-04 18:13:51 <MC-Droid> you can do off chain txn
2620 2013-04-04 18:14:00 <MC-Droid> but thats not really bitcoin
2621 2013-04-04 18:14:04 Anduck has joined
2622 2013-04-04 18:14:04 Anduck has quit (Changing host)
2623 2013-04-04 18:14:04 Anduck has joined
2624 2013-04-04 18:14:14 <gmaxwell> MC-Droid: GenTarkin: https://people.xiph.org/~greg/attack_success.html (dear god, don't look at how it works. :P )
2625 2013-04-04 18:14:22 <MC-Droid> you cant get around thr blocktimes, and thats the whole.point
2626 2013-04-04 18:14:23 <gmaxwell> thats the program in the bitcoin paper.
2627 2013-04-04 18:15:17 <ColinT> I was hoping the fees market will also take off if there ever becomes a problem confirming txns or txns getting hijacked/not recorded etc
2628 2013-04-04 18:15:27 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2629 2013-04-04 18:15:49 <kapiteined> hi, if i enter validateaddress 1BMGtHM7B6Jd6gQkqXDfFkc1ewfbBPYVcz in the console, it shows a pubkey, but it seems to short to be the complete pubkey, what is it?
2630 2013-04-04 18:15:55 <ColinT> But at 10 minutes minimum - that's still a long time - I was hoping it would be more flexible down to an instant
2631 2013-04-04 18:16:09 <gmaxwell> kapiteined: why do you say its too short?
2632 2013-04-04 18:16:17 <gmaxwell> ColinT: it's not 10 minutes "minimum"
2633 2013-04-04 18:16:48 <gmaxwell> ColinT: as mentioned, you can know about a transaction instantly. How long you wish to wait for it depends on your security tolerance.
2634 2013-04-04 18:16:49 <kapiteined> if i put it in http://gobittest.appspot.com/Address it does not translate back to the bitcoin address
2635 2013-04-04 18:16:51 berni23 has quit ()
2636 2013-04-04 18:17:01 sacredch1o has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2637 2013-04-04 18:17:15 <gmaxwell> kapiteined: so?
2638 2013-04-04 18:17:22 atweiden has joined
2639 2013-04-04 18:17:37 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: it doesn't work :<
2640 2013-04-04 18:17:46 <kapiteined> it is also a lot shorter then a random generated addrs on the same site
2641 2013-04-04 18:17:50 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2642 2013-04-04 18:17:55 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ReferenceError: Can't find variable: Float64Array
2643 2013-04-04 18:18:08 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: works for me. :P Get a more modern browser. :P
2644 2013-04-04 18:18:19 zboz has joined
2645 2013-04-04 18:18:22 i2pRelay has joined
2646 2013-04-04 18:18:32 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: my browser is up to date from git
2647 2013-04-04 18:18:35 sacredch1o has joined
2648 2013-04-04 18:19:04 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2649 2013-04-04 18:19:09 <ColinT> If the txn fee makes it so that every miner wants to carve my txn into a future block - that is good enough for me
2650 2013-04-04 18:19:30 <gmaxwell> kapiteined: presumably that page is broken and can't handle compressed public keys.
2651 2013-04-04 18:19:35 <MC-Droid> they also compete for that
2652 2013-04-04 18:19:51 <ColinT> How could a miner not want that sweet, sweet fee :D
2653 2013-04-04 18:19:53 <MC-Droid> saying that txn fees could end up ruinous anyway
2654 2013-04-04 18:20:10 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: what browser?
2655 2013-04-04 18:20:12 <kapiteined> gmaxwell: ah, ok, i'll take a look on how compressed keys are made
2656 2013-04-04 18:20:18 <ColinT> txn fees could end up being ruinous? Why?
2657 2013-04-04 18:20:26 <ColinT> I think they're required...
2658 2013-04-04 18:20:30 <ColinT> The way I understand it
2659 2013-04-04 18:20:42 calx has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2660 2013-04-04 18:20:53 calx has joined
2661 2013-04-04 18:21:05 kermit_ has joined
2662 2013-04-04 18:21:08 <kermit_> hi
2663 2013-04-04 18:21:24 <kermit_> is there some kind of reference implementation (code) of a miner?
2664 2013-04-04 18:21:34 <kermit_> somewhere on github
2665 2013-04-04 18:21:35 <kermit_> ?
2666 2013-04-04 18:21:46 <neo2> what happens if two major mining pool clandestinely join forces?
2667 2013-04-04 18:22:08 <Habbie> kermit_, most mining software is open source; i don't know whether there's an extra-clean 'reference' implementation, but i bet there is
2668 2013-04-04 18:22:11 <MC-Droid> the great blocksize debate
2669 2013-04-04 18:22:30 <kermit_> split brain problem, can it happen with the blockchain?
2670 2013-04-04 18:22:34 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: QupZilla
2671 2013-04-04 18:22:49 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: leave it to you to use something I've never heard of before. :P
2672 2013-04-04 18:22:49 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I don't see Float64Array in any final standard.
2673 2013-04-04 18:22:55 <MC-Droid> megabyte blocks forever = bitcoin be cloistered
2674 2013-04-04 18:23:08 <MC-Droid> uncapped blocks = bitcoin be cloistered
2675 2013-04-04 18:23:15 <GenTarkin> wow thats crazy
2676 2013-04-04 18:23:20 <GenTarkin> that link =) the calc hehe
2677 2013-04-04 18:23:21 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: have you heard of any browser that isn't bloatware?
2678 2013-04-04 18:23:32 <GenTarkin> yeah
2679 2013-04-04 18:23:35 <GenTarkin> linx
2680 2013-04-04 18:23:40 <GenTarkin> or lynx
2681 2013-04-04 18:23:44 <GenTarkin> however its spelt =P
2682 2013-04-04 18:23:44 taha has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2683 2013-04-04 18:23:48 clax has joined
2684 2013-04-04 18:23:59 cryptorific has joined
2685 2013-04-04 18:24:06 <Luke-Jr> GenTarkin: -.-
2686 2013-04-04 18:24:16 * Luke-Jr adds "maintained" to the criteria
2687 2013-04-04 18:24:21 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it's part of the typed array specification, http://www.khronos.org/registry/typedarray/specs/latest/
2688 2013-04-04 18:24:36 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that's a draft
2689 2013-04-04 18:24:55 <gmaxwell> "Thats nice"
2690 2013-04-04 18:25:17 calx has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2691 2013-04-04 18:25:26 <cryptorific> my bitcoi-qt client crashed up trying to sned a transaction, this has happened in the past and i usually just do getrawtransaction followed by sendrawtransaction but in this case im getting and tx rejected code: â22
2692 2013-04-04 18:25:35 <GenTarkin> lol not muc need to maintain a decently written text browser =P
2693 2013-04-04 18:25:49 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2694 2013-04-04 18:26:20 <ColinT> Say I wanted to accept payments quicker - would requiring a txn fee help me do that?
2695 2013-04-04 18:26:22 i2pRelay has joined
2696 2013-04-04 18:26:22 <ColinT> I think it would no...
2697 2013-04-04 18:26:26 sebicas has joined
2698 2013-04-04 18:26:31 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I could tell you why it needs it, but then I'd have to tell you how it works, and it's better for everyone's mental health if I don't.
2699 2013-04-04 18:26:33 <diki> If an address starts with 1 it is correct, right?
2700 2013-04-04 18:26:36 <ColinT> Can I see the txn fee paid with a txn when I receive one?
2701 2013-04-04 18:26:44 calx has joined
2702 2013-04-04 18:26:52 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: sounds like it's the same as an Array of Numbers
2703 2013-04-04 18:27:00 <ColinT> or are the txn fee details not sent with the txn
2704 2013-04-04 18:27:04 <diki> Want to make sure I got it right
2705 2013-04-04 18:27:48 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: anyhow, stable Qt was released 2011 Dec, it's not reasonable to expect it to have something that's a draft today
2706 2013-04-04 18:28:08 <graingert> diki: maybe
2707 2013-04-04 18:28:12 clax has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2708 2013-04-04 18:28:38 <graingert> diki: there is a check sum used. I believe you postfix the first few bytes of the hash of the hash of the public key to the hash of the public key
2709 2013-04-04 18:28:43 <graingert> then prefix with 1
2710 2013-04-04 18:29:06 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it's an IEEE 754 double. JS numbers aren't the same thing.
2711 2013-04-04 18:29:23 Tug has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2712 2013-04-04 18:29:35 clax has joined
2713 2013-04-04 18:29:59 <Habbie> ColinT, it's sent with the txn, see http://blockexplorer.com/tx/4e3b98a02b59186fc988b1498ec41de5ec351f9d979bfcbe24acc7bfc509847f for example
2714 2013-04-04 18:30:15 <ColinT> cool
2715 2013-04-04 18:30:22 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: that spec was written in early 2011. Works in firefox 4.
2716 2013-04-04 18:30:44 <ColinT> So I could presumably require customers to send a fee with their txn to ensure that I can provide them a service faster
2717 2013-04-04 18:30:51 <kermit_> looks like actionscript typed array
2718 2013-04-04 18:30:53 <kermit_> lol
2719 2013-04-04 18:30:59 <MC-Droid> ColinT: can prob look it up in the blockchain
2720 2013-04-04 18:31:04 <ColinT> The higher the fee, the more quickly I can serve them
2721 2013-04-04 18:31:07 calx has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2722 2013-04-04 18:31:08 <MC-Droid> b.i
2723 2013-04-04 18:31:42 <diki> ColinT: the higher the fee, the more likely it is included in the next block
2724 2013-04-04 18:31:46 <ColinT> I mean, even in the sub-10 minutes range or before a block is created - that fee *is* defininitely going to help my txn get included
2725 2013-04-04 18:32:28 john5223 has joined
2726 2013-04-04 18:32:30 calx has joined
2727 2013-04-04 18:32:41 <MC-Droid> if youre shipping physical goods you can well accept zero confs
2728 2013-04-04 18:32:49 <ColinT> and the more blocks I get it included in - the higher likelihood that it'll be in the next 5 or so blocks too
2729 2013-04-04 18:32:53 <MC-Droid> if they fuck you, dont send
2730 2013-04-04 18:33:28 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
2731 2013-04-04 18:33:46 <MC-Droid> getting it included in 1 block is all you have to worry about
2732 2013-04-04 18:33:51 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2733 2013-04-04 18:33:52 coolfengyu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2734 2013-04-04 18:33:56 <MC-Droid> its called.blockchain for a reason
2735 2013-04-04 18:33:58 FredEE has joined
2736 2013-04-04 18:34:02 clax has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2737 2013-04-04 18:34:25 i2pRelay has joined
2738 2013-04-04 18:34:27 <diki> ColinT: you only need to get it included once
2739 2013-04-04 18:34:51 <diki> After that confirmations ramp up as long as the block was valid
2740 2013-04-04 18:35:01 <diki> And the chain gets continued
2741 2013-04-04 18:35:17 coolfengyu has joined
2742 2013-04-04 18:35:24 clax has joined
2743 2013-04-04 18:35:28 remotemass has quit (Quit: Going to sleep)
2744 2013-04-04 18:36:09 <graingert> ColinT: every block after the block your tx is in "confirms" your tx further
2745 2013-04-04 18:36:25 <ColinT> yep
2746 2013-04-04 18:36:43 <diki> It doesnt get includednin other blocks per se
2747 2013-04-04 18:36:48 <graingert> diki: and accepted
2748 2013-04-04 18:36:52 <diki> *included in
2749 2013-04-04 18:36:56 <ColinT> As long as they're aren't a bunch of seperate chains floating around - At any given time how many different chains are being made?
2750 2013-04-04 18:36:57 calx has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2751 2013-04-04 18:36:58 <ColinT> RIght now?
2752 2013-04-04 18:36:58 <graingert> diki: I don't think it can
2753 2013-04-04 18:37:07 <ColinT> or blocks I mean
2754 2013-04-04 18:37:10 jspilman has joined
2755 2013-04-04 18:37:13 <graingert> diki: I'm pretty sure each tx can only be included once...? gmaxwell?
2756 2013-04-04 18:37:25 <Habbie> graingert, yes, only once.
2757 2013-04-04 18:37:42 <diki> graingert: I think it had something to do with merkle root but honestly I have not read up much more
2758 2013-04-04 18:37:58 <graingert> ColinT: millions and millions of blocks being made at once
2759 2013-04-04 18:38:10 <diki> graingert: Yes, I saidnit can be included only once as well
2760 2013-04-04 18:38:11 <graingert> ColinT: 20Trillion per second
2761 2013-04-04 18:38:12 <ColinT> with your transaction
2762 2013-04-04 18:38:14 <diki> *said it
2763 2013-04-04 18:38:14 calx has joined
2764 2013-04-04 18:38:19 <graingert> I think
2765 2013-04-04 18:38:22 <MC-Droid> there is only one chain
2766 2013-04-04 18:38:24 <diki> Can't*
2767 2013-04-04 18:38:41 <MC-Droid> sometimes a sidechain breaks off, but it gets orphaned quick
2768 2013-04-04 18:38:44 <ColinT> How many of these 20 Trillion blocks include the txn I just made?
2769 2013-04-04 18:38:46 <diki> MC-Droid: until next fork :P
2770 2013-04-04 18:38:51 <MC-Droid> you can see it on b.i
2771 2013-04-04 18:39:03 <Habbie> ColinT, after a few seconds/minutes, if your fees are right, most of them!
2772 2013-04-04 18:39:24 <gmaxwell> sipa: fwiw, I had an email from someone hitting the assert(pfork != NULL); on startup. They ... were not the most helpful for troubleshooting, I told them to reindex and that fixed them.
2773 2013-04-04 18:39:46 <MC-Droid> wow fuck so the head of the chain is sort of in a superposition
2774 2013-04-04 18:39:52 clax has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2775 2013-04-04 18:40:06 <MC-Droid> and solving a hash collapses the function
2776 2013-04-04 18:40:06 coolfengyu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2777 2013-04-04 18:40:21 <MC-Droid> woah bro my head
2778 2013-04-04 18:40:23 <graingert> MC-Droid: no
2779 2013-04-04 18:40:31 <graingert> MC-Droid: really no
2780 2013-04-04 18:40:31 <Habbie> MC-Droid, only if you really insist on looking at it that way ;)
2781 2013-04-04 18:40:39 <MC-Droid> i do
2782 2013-04-04 18:40:52 hyperjacker has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2783 2013-04-04 18:40:54 <MC-Droid> quantum makes everything cooler
2784 2013-04-04 18:40:57 <ColinT> heh
2785 2013-04-04 18:41:20 <diki> String theory is cooler :D
2786 2013-04-04 18:41:23 <gmaxwell> MC-Droid: so, have you found the attack calculator interesting?
2787 2013-04-04 18:41:25 <HM> well I think Bitcoin Foundation should launch its own mobile phone
2788 2013-04-04 18:41:33 <HM> all the cool kids are doing it
2789 2013-04-04 18:41:53 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2790 2013-04-04 18:41:57 <Luke-Jr> lol
2791 2013-04-04 18:42:05 <kermit_> bitphone
2792 2013-04-04 18:42:22 calx has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2793 2013-04-04 18:42:26 i2pRelay has joined
2794 2013-04-04 18:42:48 coolfengyu has joined
2795 2013-04-04 18:43:19 <MC-Droid> 20 could pull off a 3 reorg with 298 probability
2796 2013-04-04 18:43:21 <MC-Droid> wat
2797 2013-04-04 18:43:55 <MC-Droid> does that just mean "yes"
2798 2013-04-04 18:44:55 <diki> Bitphone with bitkernel that makes bit coins
2799 2013-04-04 18:45:08 nouitfvf has joined
2800 2013-04-04 18:47:38 <ColinT> This March 12th chain fork, if I had upgraded my bitcoin client to 0.8.0 and made a txn, it would have disappeared when the miners agree to switch back to 0.7?
2801 2013-04-04 18:47:42 coolfengyu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2802 2013-04-04 18:47:45 manet_ has joined
2803 2013-04-04 18:47:54 <Habbie> ColinT, it would have appeared in the right chain eventually
2804 2013-04-04 18:48:00 <gmaxwell> MC-Droid: 20% should be .2 not "20" ... reload it, I changed it so if you ask about >50% it just says 1. (the math isn't defined above .5)
2805 2013-04-04 18:48:08 <graingert> MC-Droid: 298?
2806 2013-04-04 18:48:16 <graingert> MC-Droid: that's greater than one
2807 2013-04-04 18:48:17 <ColinT> why is that Habbie?
2808 2013-04-04 18:48:26 <Habbie> ColinT, because otherwise they would be reversed!
2809 2013-04-04 18:48:27 coolfengyu has joined
2810 2013-04-04 18:48:40 D34TH has joined
2811 2013-04-04 18:48:49 <MC-Droid> yes it is
2812 2013-04-04 18:48:53 <MC-Droid> jence confudion
2813 2013-04-04 18:49:12 <ColinT> Could they have been reversed?
2814 2013-04-04 18:49:18 manet has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2815 2013-04-04 18:49:21 <ColinT> The txn I assume you're referring to?
2816 2013-04-04 18:49:31 <ColinT> So my txn could have been reversed?
2817 2013-04-04 18:49:42 <Habbie> ColinT, well, theoretically there could be conflicting transactions in the different legs of the fork
2818 2013-04-04 18:49:55 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2819 2013-04-04 18:50:07 <ColinT> Hmm - why would my client put my txn into both chains
2820 2013-04-04 18:50:12 <ColinT> Is that what it does?
2821 2013-04-04 18:50:17 <ColinT> It doesn't just pick one?
2822 2013-04-04 18:50:21 <MC-Droid> wow adding not much more incremental power boosts your chances of attack very fast
2823 2013-04-04 18:50:30 <gmaxwell> ColinT: your client doesn't do any of that, you just broadcast the transaction
2824 2013-04-04 18:50:30 i2pRelay has joined
2825 2013-04-04 18:50:33 <Habbie> ColinT, your client does not put anything into chains, the miners do
2826 2013-04-04 18:50:44 <gmaxwell> ColinT: the miners in each fork would hear about it and put it in their respective chains.
2827 2013-04-04 18:50:55 <ColinT> Oh ok
2828 2013-04-04 18:51:04 <ColinT> So it would get built into both chains... weird
2829 2013-04-04 18:51:15 <MC-Droid> that actually happened last month
2830 2013-04-04 18:51:25 <gmaxwell> ColinT: I reiterate: 10:41 <@gmaxwell> I suggest you stop trying to get detailed answers for a bit and take some time to go back and understand how the system works.
2831 2013-04-04 18:51:36 <ColinT> Sorry gmaxwell ;D
2832 2013-04-04 18:51:39 <ColinT> I'll give you a break
2833 2013-04-04 18:51:45 <gmaxwell> You're asking a lot of questions that stem from trying to understand the details without understanding the overall system. :P
2834 2013-04-04 18:51:57 <MC-Droid> wheres that infographic
2835 2013-04-04 18:51:58 <gmaxwell> They're okay questions but you could answer them yourself if you went and studied the whole thing more.
2836 2013-04-04 18:52:01 <ColinT> Well I am reading as well - you guys are useful though :D
2837 2013-04-04 18:52:03 jdnavarro has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2838 2013-04-04 18:52:15 <MC-Droid> !infographic
2839 2013-04-04 18:52:15 <gribble> How bitcoin works, in pictures: http://spectrum.ieee.org/img/06Bitcoin-1338412974774.jpg
2840 2013-04-04 18:52:17 agricocb has joined
2841 2013-04-04 18:52:24 BlackPrapor has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2842 2013-04-04 18:52:42 bitcoin-dev816 has joined
2843 2013-04-04 18:52:57 atweiden has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2844 2013-04-04 18:53:37 normanrichards has joined
2845 2013-04-04 18:53:53 chazmichaels2 has joined
2846 2013-04-04 18:54:01 BlackPrapor has joined
2847 2013-04-04 18:54:53 chazmichaels2 is now known as OmandM
2848 2013-04-04 18:55:13 rdymac has joined
2849 2013-04-04 18:55:19 <MC-Droid> why is everyone not shitting their pants about asicminer then
2850 2013-04-04 18:55:23 <gonffen> MC-Droid: do you know what article that was originally posted with?
2851 2013-04-04 18:55:25 <gmaxwell> MC-Droid: is it more sensible for you now?
2852 2013-04-04 18:55:26 qeb has quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"])
2853 2013-04-04 18:55:33 <gmaxwell> MC-Droid: people don't believe asicminer is real, actually
2854 2013-04-04 18:55:55 <MC-Droid> the hashes are coming from somewhere
2855 2013-04-04 18:56:09 <MC-Droid> gonffen: nope
2856 2013-04-04 18:56:18 <aceat64> gmaxwell: they pay dividends though, ponzi scheme?
2857 2013-04-04 18:56:21 <gmaxwell> quoting someone who was arguing with me in email about it:
2858 2013-04-04 18:56:21 <gmaxwell> Dividends are long-term. Share prices are now. Inflate prices, sell
2859 2013-04-04 18:56:21 <gmaxwell> them high, then "oh no, our datacenter cached fire, so no dividends
2860 2013-04-04 18:56:22 <gmaxwell> for you, sorry guys, we are bankrupt".
2861 2013-04-04 18:56:31 <gmaxwell> ...
2862 2013-04-04 18:56:42 Aziz has quit (Disconnected by services)
2863 2013-04-04 18:56:49 Aziz has joined
2864 2013-04-04 18:56:55 <MC-Droid> but they hash through btcguild?
2865 2013-04-04 18:57:00 <gmaxwell> I don't believe this, as MC-Droid says, you can see the hashrate. But people who don't want to worry can just tell themselves asicminer isn't real.
2866 2013-04-04 18:57:14 Aziz has quit (Disconnected by services)
2867 2013-04-04 18:57:14 qwertyoruiop is now known as zz_qwertyoruiop
2868 2013-04-04 18:57:15 <gmaxwell> MC-Droid: yea so? could just be a bunch of avalons on that account.
2869 2013-04-04 18:57:21 Aziz has joined
2870 2013-04-04 18:57:23 Aziz has quit (Disconnected by services)
2871 2013-04-04 18:57:36 Aziz- has joined
2872 2013-04-04 18:57:38 <MC-Droid> still worries me
2873 2013-04-04 18:57:44 zz_qwertyoruiop is now known as qwertyoruiop
2874 2013-04-04 18:57:45 hyperjacker has joined
2875 2013-04-04 18:57:52 <aceat64> gmaxwell: so you think ASICMINER is legit, at least at their currently stated capacity?
2876 2013-04-04 18:57:54 <gonffen> I always thought it was weird asicminer would mine with a pool
2877 2013-04-04 18:57:56 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2878 2013-04-04 18:58:01 <gmaxwell> they are supposidly split across multiple pools, ... which would, I suppose be a great cover for claiming other people's hashpower as their own.
2879 2013-04-04 18:58:07 <MC-Droid> i was causing a fuss about datacentre mining ops not long back
2880 2013-04-04 18:58:20 <gmaxwell> aceat64: I do, yes, I'm just pointing out that people can choose to make up reasons why it might not be.
2881 2013-04-04 18:58:25 i2pRelay has joined
2882 2013-04-04 18:58:28 <aceat64> if I had even 1 THs, I would run my own private pool
2883 2013-04-04 18:58:35 <aceat64> more variance sure, but more reward
2884 2013-04-04 18:58:53 <MC-Droid> solo?
2885 2013-04-04 18:58:57 <gmaxwell> aceat64: its hardly even any more variance.. once you're more than a few percent the overall network's variance dominates.
2886 2013-04-04 18:59:35 <Luke-Jr> aceat64: not more reward necessary
2887 2013-04-04 18:59:39 <Luke-Jr> necessarily*
2888 2013-04-04 18:59:58 <gmaxwell> well, compared to a 3% fee pool...
2889 2013-04-04 19:00:03 <MC-Droid> 40pc gives you over .5 chance of rolling back a 6 conf
2890 2013-04-04 19:00:10 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: well, yeah
2891 2013-04-04 19:00:17 <Luke-Jr> but who'd use a fee pool? XD
2892 2013-04-04 19:00:24 <gmaxwell> MC-Droid: yes, thats what I said. 40% has 50% change of reversing 6 confirms.
2893 2013-04-04 19:00:29 <MC-Droid> bitcoin needs to get a LOT bigger
2894 2013-04-04 19:00:42 <gmaxwell> MC-Droid: it got bigger, and bigger made it more consolidated, not less.
2895 2013-04-04 19:00:42 <MC-Droid> and more diverse if thats even possible
2896 2013-04-04 19:01:20 <MC-Droid> gmaxwell: cos of the chokepoint of early asics
2897 2013-04-04 19:01:30 jackass_ has joined
2898 2013-04-04 19:01:43 <aceat64> we need open source ASIC
2899 2013-04-04 19:01:47 <MC-Droid> fuck what if asics arnt even sold to the public in future?
2900 2013-04-04 19:01:56 <aceat64> the future of mining is here, it's just not evenly distributed
2901 2013-04-04 19:01:58 <MC-Droid> like serious server iron isnt
2902 2013-04-04 19:01:59 <Luke-Jr> aceat64: lol
2903 2013-04-04 19:02:01 <MC-Droid> shiiiiit
2904 2013-04-04 19:02:48 <MC-Droid> or
2905 2013-04-04 19:02:58 <gonffen> Somebody needs to convince Atmel to produce and sell bare ASIC chips
2906 2013-04-04 19:02:59 <MC-Droid> like money printing equipment isnt
2907 2013-04-04 19:03:10 <MC-Droid> bitcoin has a lot of failure modes...
2908 2013-04-04 19:04:34 fishfish has joined
2909 2013-04-04 19:05:58 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2910 2013-04-04 19:06:31 i2pRelay has joined
2911 2013-04-04 19:09:51 Ashaman has joined
2912 2013-04-04 19:10:33 alexwaters has joined
2913 2013-04-04 19:13:06 Anduck has joined
2914 2013-04-04 19:13:28 dust-otc has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2915 2013-04-04 19:14:00 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2916 2013-04-04 19:14:10 <alexwaters> so i just spoke with someone who tried to send 100 btc to their blockchain wallet from qt 0.8.1 - it send .0015btc to the blockchain wallet address and the remaining 99.9985 to some unknown address
2917 2013-04-04 19:14:32 i2pRelay has joined
2918 2013-04-04 19:14:32 <alexwaters> s/send/sent
2919 2013-04-04 19:14:37 <Habbie> alexwaters, do you have the addresses?
2920 2013-04-04 19:14:45 <alexwaters> Habbie: yes
2921 2013-04-04 19:14:53 <MC-Droid> change
2922 2013-04-04 19:15:14 <alexwaters> https://blockchain.info/address/1KrtYDFp4csthUJe5XwGnuTEC4YGwUw2zs
2923 2013-04-04 19:16:03 Leviathanzz has joined
2924 2013-04-04 19:16:07 <MC-Droid> 404
2925 2013-04-04 19:16:21 leviathanbaphz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2926 2013-04-04 19:17:37 <Habbie> 404? i get 'this website is offline'
2927 2013-04-04 19:17:48 <Habbie> there it is
2928 2013-04-04 19:18:18 <Habbie> alexwaters, and you're saying his intention was to send 100 to 1HV7qXZ1HhsEV3voJnWjFLW85L2NyGHckE ?
2929 2013-04-04 19:19:03 <MC-Droid> shit guy is a high roller
2930 2013-04-04 19:19:34 graingert_ has joined
2931 2013-04-04 19:19:55 D34TH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2932 2013-04-04 19:19:55 bitcoin-dev816 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2933 2013-04-04 19:19:56 graingert_ is now known as Guest24391
2934 2013-04-04 19:19:59 D34TH_ has joined
2935 2013-04-04 19:20:09 <alexwaters> Habbie: correct
2936 2013-04-04 19:20:38 <alexwaters> he told me that is what he entered for the transaction destination in qt
2937 2013-04-04 19:21:02 <MC-Droid> got to be acchange address
2938 2013-04-04 19:21:07 graingert has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2939 2013-04-04 19:21:20 <MC-Droid> something got fucked up
2940 2013-04-04 19:22:01 <MC-Droid> its not a crazy fee is it
2941 2013-04-04 19:22:03 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2942 2013-04-04 19:22:29 bibbybob has joined
2943 2013-04-04 19:22:31 <alexwaters> i think he intended for the fee to be .0015btc
2944 2013-04-04 19:22:38 i2pRelay has joined
2945 2013-04-04 19:22:52 <alexwaters> but it seems that it sent the fee to the destination address
2946 2013-04-04 19:23:02 Guest24391 has quit (Client Quit)
2947 2013-04-04 19:23:11 <Habbie> it seems that way, yes
2948 2013-04-04 19:23:27 <Habbie> .001 then
2949 2013-04-04 19:23:33 Guest24391 has joined
2950 2013-04-04 19:23:35 Xqr has joined
2951 2013-04-04 19:23:47 <alexwaters> Habbie: any ideas of how I can tell him to recover the lost 99 coins - and to prevent this going forward?
2952 2013-04-04 19:23:50 <MC-Droid> what version
2953 2013-04-04 19:23:57 <MC-Droid> i hope this isnt a bug
2954 2013-04-04 19:24:01 <alexwaters> he is using 0.8.2
2955 2013-04-04 19:24:06 <alexwaters> 0.8.1
2956 2013-04-04 19:24:16 <alexwaters> sorry i meant he is using 0.8.1
2957 2013-04-04 19:24:34 Guest24391 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2958 2013-04-04 19:24:36 <MC-Droid> if he doesnt control the adress where 99 went, bad news
2959 2013-04-04 19:24:49 <MC-Droid> but where did that address come from
2960 2013-04-04 19:24:54 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2961 2013-04-04 19:24:57 <alexwaters> he did not enter it
2962 2013-04-04 19:25:33 <MC-Droid> how can qt send fees to the destination instead thats not.possible
2963 2013-04-04 19:25:34 <Habbie> i'd say it should be part of his wallet
2964 2013-04-04 19:25:40 <alexwaters> and that address has no other transactions, the coins are just sitting there
2965 2013-04-04 19:25:50 <Habbie> but then he should see 0.001 in his transaction overview
2966 2013-04-04 19:25:54 <Habbie> not 100 or 99.something
2967 2013-04-04 19:26:03 <alexwaters> he does, that's the problem
2968 2013-04-04 19:26:14 <alexwaters> in his blockchain wallet it only shows .001
2969 2013-04-04 19:26:18 <Habbie> what does it -say- in his transactions?
2970 2013-04-04 19:26:25 <alexwaters> https://blockchain.info/address/1HV7qXZ1HhsEV3voJnWjFLW85L2NyGHckE
2971 2013-04-04 19:26:29 <Habbie> in bitcoin-qt?
2972 2013-04-04 19:27:00 kfreds has quit (Quit: leaving)
2973 2013-04-04 19:27:07 free__ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2974 2013-04-04 19:28:08 stretchwarren has joined
2975 2013-04-04 19:29:24 <alexwaters> i am not with him at the moment
2976 2013-04-04 19:30:04 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2977 2013-04-04 19:30:08 Conflict has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2978 2013-04-04 19:30:22 Jere_Jones has joined
2979 2013-04-04 19:30:38 i2pRelay has joined
2980 2013-04-04 19:31:51 OmandM has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2981 2013-04-04 19:33:41 <jspilman> sounds like he typed the fee in the destination address, left the default fee (it's kind of low down in the UI, easy to miss), and ended up with a 99.9985 going back to a change adddress
2982 2013-04-04 19:33:46 <jspilman> will that show up in listunspent?
2983 2013-04-04 19:34:30 f00b_ar has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2984 2013-04-04 19:35:03 <jspilman> his QT wallet should show a balance of 99.9985, and he should be able to send a new TX along to 1HV7qXZ1HhsEV3voJnWjFLW85L2NyGHckE with 99.998, and a default fee of 0.0005
2985 2013-04-04 19:35:30 sfraise has joined
2986 2013-04-04 19:35:55 <jspilman> (aside from, why would you want to put $13,000+ dollars in an online wallet)
2987 2013-04-04 19:36:08 <Habbie> well, blockchain.info is not really an online wallet
2988 2013-04-04 19:36:18 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
2989 2013-04-04 19:36:20 <jspilman> riiight, js crypto yay
2990 2013-04-04 19:36:26 <Habbie> :)
2991 2013-04-04 19:36:32 <Habbie> js pill man
2992 2013-04-04 19:37:04 <alexwaters> is there a way I could have him add his change address to the tracked addresseS?
2993 2013-04-04 19:37:08 <sfraise> someone gave me a link to a bitcoin talk a couple of days ago about contracts lending and smart collateral and functionality not being used yet, could someone send me that again?
2994 2013-04-04 19:37:22 <sipa> alexwaters: what do you mean by tracked?
2995 2013-04-04 19:37:24 <Habbie> alexwaters, it should be part of his wallet already
2996 2013-04-04 19:37:55 <alexwaters> i don't think it is showing the correct balance then, it was showing his balance before the transaction less 100btc
2997 2013-04-04 19:38:07 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2998 2013-04-04 19:38:40 i2pRelay has joined
2999 2013-04-04 19:38:41 pgvoorhees has joined
3000 2013-04-04 19:39:11 <jspilman> that's a worrisome sign I think...
3001 2013-04-04 19:39:37 <jspilman> but if he never typed the 127Mu7UMnCnY86bivNTeTkQQhzbjuQQZQG address, it should not be possible
3002 2013-04-04 19:40:01 <MC-Droid> if its a change address
3003 2013-04-04 19:40:21 <MC-Droid> -rescan?
3004 2013-04-04 19:42:09 realazthat has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3005 2013-04-04 19:44:47 [\\\] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3006 2013-04-04 19:44:53 <jspilman> would balance show the lower balance if the change transaction wasn't confirmed?
3007 2013-04-04 19:45:07 bernard75 has joined
3008 2013-04-04 19:45:11 <sipa> change should always be counted
3009 2013-04-04 19:45:12 normanrichards has quit ()
3010 2013-04-04 19:45:13 <sipa> even unconfirmed
3011 2013-04-04 19:45:23 arij_ has joined
3012 2013-04-04 19:45:41 BlackPrapor has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3013 2013-04-04 19:46:02 BlackPrapor has joined
3014 2013-04-04 19:46:09 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3015 2013-04-04 19:46:35 [\\\] has joined
3016 2013-04-04 19:46:41 i2pRelay has joined
3017 2013-04-04 19:47:06 arij has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3018 2013-04-04 19:47:08 viperhr1 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3019 2013-04-04 19:47:25 <HM> can anyone ever think of a time where it might be useful have an empty array in json?
3020 2013-04-04 19:47:56 <HM> hmm i guess if it's a top level item
3021 2013-04-04 19:48:15 <Scrat> results: []
3022 2013-04-04 19:48:18 <Scrat> no results
3023 2013-04-04 19:48:46 <HM> yeah, brain fart
3024 2013-04-04 19:48:49 BlackPrapor has joined
3025 2013-04-04 19:49:00 BlackPrapor has quit (2!~kvirc@140.128.broadband15.iol.cz|Client Quit)
3026 2013-04-04 19:49:21 BlackPrapor has joined
3027 2013-04-04 19:50:28 Aziz- has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
3028 2013-04-04 19:50:42 <HM> I wanted to add a minimum expected size parameter to a function that reads a json array, but 0 is ambiguous
3029 2013-04-04 19:52:10 BlackPrapor has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3030 2013-04-04 19:54:12 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3031 2013-04-04 19:54:29 <jspilman> could alexwaters do a 'dumpprivkey 127Mu7UMnCnY86bivNTeTkQQhzbjuQQZQG' to know for sure if he controls that address with the 99.9985?
3032 2013-04-04 19:54:45 i2pRelay has joined
3033 2013-04-04 19:54:53 <sipa> validateaddress will tell you the same
3034 2013-04-04 19:58:14 <jspilman> Or even 'gettransaction a0bfeba8845771f1cfa17a36830a7ebde810762d9d75701e78837ff38542ec4a' and see what it says in the details. if 99.9985 was CHANGE, it will only list the address with the 0.001 which was spent. If it lists the 99.9985 in details, it was sent outside the wallet
3035 2013-04-04 19:58:29 SwedFTP has joined
3036 2013-04-04 19:58:51 <jspilman> alexwaters - you know how to use the Debug Console or CLI to run these commands
3037 2013-04-04 19:58:51 sync` has joined
3038 2013-04-04 19:58:52 <jspilman> ?
3039 2013-04-04 20:02:13 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3040 2013-04-04 20:02:27 realazthat has joined
3041 2013-04-04 20:02:30 <jspilman> I was looking at how Armory handles offline transaction signing where the offline wallet does not have any blockchain. One challenge I think is knowing how much coin is actually in the inputs, so you can be sure that you're not inadvertantly signing a transaction that will send a large remained to mining fees.
3042 2013-04-04 20:02:46 i2pRelay has joined
3043 2013-04-04 20:03:11 <jspilman> It looks like Armory puts the input balance as metadata in the file with the rawtransaction to be signed, so the offline GUI can tell you what it thinks will be paid in mining fees
3044 2013-04-04 20:03:14 <alexwaters> jspilman: can I use RPC calls?
3045 2013-04-04 20:03:39 <jspilman> alexwaters - yeah, same thing as debug console in the GUI or bitcoind CLI
3046 2013-04-04 20:03:39 <alexwaters> stupid question, sorry yes I can
3047 2013-04-04 20:03:54 Diapolo has joined
3048 2013-04-04 20:04:38 <jspilman> but there's nothing explicitly getting signed by the offline wallet to strictly enforce how much in fees will be paid - so if MITM somehow can choose your inputs, you could be sending more coins than you realize.
3049 2013-04-04 20:05:56 realazthat has quit (Excess Flood)
3050 2013-04-04 20:05:58 <jspilman> has anyone discussed adding the total fee amount (uint64 satoshi) into the hash being signed (would require a new SIG_HASHTYPE) as a way for offline wallets to explicitly approve the fee amount? this would work without having to add any new fields into the transaction data
3051 2013-04-04 20:06:31 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3052 2013-04-04 20:06:46 <Luke-Jr> jspilman: only with a hardfork
3053 2013-04-04 20:08:07 <jspilman> yeah, deploying such a feature is not trivial... not like MTUT which can come online ad hoc
3054 2013-04-04 20:08:39 <sipa> Luke-Jr: not true :)
3055 2013-04-04 20:08:51 svara_ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
3056 2013-04-04 20:08:53 <Diapolo> good evening
3057 2013-04-04 20:09:04 <jspilman> if you change the sighash, every needs to be able to validate it, yet?
3058 2013-04-04 20:09:07 <jspilman> *yes?
3059 2013-04-04 20:09:17 <BlueMatt> tcatm: are the ddos'ers hitting bitcoincharts too?
3060 2013-04-04 20:09:21 lodse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3061 2013-04-04 20:09:26 <sipa> yes, it needs something like OP_EVAL with a new script language that supports a new hashtype
3062 2013-04-04 20:09:32 <sipa> but that can be done without hardfork :)
3063 2013-04-04 20:09:40 <tcatm> BlueMatt: I don't think so.
3064 2013-04-04 20:09:48 <BlueMatt> 502s
3065 2013-04-04 20:10:03 <BlueMatt> I suppose just growing pains?
3066 2013-04-04 20:10:15 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3067 2013-04-04 20:10:43 rdymac has joined
3068 2013-04-04 20:10:47 i2pRelay has joined
3069 2013-04-04 20:11:00 <tcatm> BlueMatt: yep. I'm going to rewrite parts of the backend in haskell soon.
3070 2013-04-04 20:11:11 <BlueMatt> to make it slower?
3071 2013-04-04 20:11:17 saulimus has joined
3072 2013-04-04 20:11:21 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3073 2013-04-04 20:11:36 <sipa> jspilman: anyway, yes it has been suggested before, and i like the idea: it also means that any light client that is being lied to about the size of its inputs cannot create a valid transaction
3074 2013-04-04 20:11:40 <tcatm> Nope. To be able to use better datastructures and a compiled language.
3075 2013-04-04 20:11:55 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
3076 2013-04-04 20:12:12 <BlueMatt> whats it in now?
3077 2013-04-04 20:12:19 <tcatm> python
3078 2013-04-04 20:12:40 <tcatm> FWIW, I've already reduced the server load from > 100 to about 10..20 within the last days.
3079 2013-04-04 20:12:47 <BlueMatt> ahh, well then yes most languages would be an upgrade...
3080 2013-04-04 20:13:07 <jspilman> OP_EVAL? not just a new SIG_HASHTYPE field at the end of the signature? I didn't think you would need to touch the scriptPubKey
3081 2013-04-04 20:13:39 <tcatm> Which languages would you recommend?
3082 2013-04-04 20:13:51 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3083 2013-04-04 20:14:09 * BlueMatt hates all languages (you should see me rant about how every language sucks at various times late at night/early in the morning)
3084 2013-04-04 20:14:10 <tcatm> bitcoincharts' started life as a shell script, then became a perl script, then python. I don't really mind rewriting it once again :)
3085 2013-04-04 20:14:26 <BlueMatt> but...C
3086 2013-04-04 20:14:29 <BlueMatt> if you want speed
3087 2013-04-04 20:14:30 <kadoban> tcatm: haskell can be quite speedy if you do it right, if you're comfortable there why not go with it?
3088 2013-04-04 20:14:36 <BlueMatt> though haskell really isnt that bad
3089 2013-04-04 20:14:51 <BlueMatt> (speed-wise atleast...)
3090 2013-04-04 20:15:12 <alexwaters> cobol on cogs ftw
3091 2013-04-04 20:15:14 <flyingkiwiguy> tcatm: kudos and thanks - for business minded peeps bitcoincharts is very useful
3092 2013-04-04 20:15:39 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
3093 2013-04-04 20:16:19 <jspilman> if I understand correctly SIG_HASHTYPE is just blanking rules on a copy of the tx before doing the double SHA512 which is signed. Neither total fees nor total inputs is part of the tx, so not signed. But (maybe it's too much of a hack) with a new SIG_HASHTYPE, you could just concat the calculated txFee amount to the end of the serialized txCopy and double sha hash that before signing?
3094 2013-04-04 20:16:55 <flyingkiwiguy> the NYSE of Bitcoin
3095 2013-04-04 20:16:56 grau has joined
3096 2013-04-04 20:17:13 <sipa> jspilman: yes, is certainly possible
3097 2013-04-04 20:17:31 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3098 2013-04-04 20:17:32 <sipa> as said, needs a hardfork or a subscript language
3099 2013-04-04 20:17:36 kapiteined has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 17.0.2/20130127105211])
3100 2013-04-04 20:18:15 Arnavion has quit (Quit: Arnavion)
3101 2013-04-04 20:18:17 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3102 2013-04-04 20:18:25 Arnavion has joined
3103 2013-04-04 20:18:25 <kadoban> total inputs isn't part of tx? i thought that couldn't be changed? or did i read that wrong?
3104 2013-04-04 20:18:46 <jspilman> the input txid:index is part of the tx
3105 2013-04-04 20:18:58 i2pRelay has joined
3106 2013-04-04 20:19:01 <jspilman> the amount actually held at the txid:index is not known to an offline client.
3107 2013-04-04 20:19:05 <jspilman> I should say *may not be* known
3108 2013-04-04 20:19:09 <kadoban> ohhhh, i see. thanks
3109 2013-04-04 20:19:20 <sipa> so yes, the input amount is implicitly signed via the prevout
3110 2013-04-04 20:19:24 <sipa> but not explictly
3111 2013-04-04 20:19:29 BlackPrapor has joined
3112 2013-04-04 20:19:56 <jspilman> so the worst case is potentially hugely overpaying txFee. Kind of a perverse incentive for the miners to not want the feature :-)
3113 2013-04-04 20:20:46 BlackPrapor has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3114 2013-04-04 20:21:05 <jspilman> in the meantime, Armory does its best to help, but you basically can't trust rawtransaction from a 3rd party if you're doing offline signing. You would need to show the rawtransaction to your online wallet to be certain how much fees it was paying to be absolutely sure.
3115 2013-04-04 20:21:09 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3116 2013-04-04 20:21:24 <Diapolo> sipa: one thing, perhaps related to our IBD mechanism, when doing a loadblock (bootstrapped), which doesn't contain the full chain, the client seems to never resume downloading blocks from a peer ... any idea?
3117 2013-04-04 20:21:47 <jspilman> another random question: does QT include checkpoints for testnet3?
3118 2013-04-04 20:22:06 <gmaxwell> 12:42 < jspilman> but there's nothing explicitly getting signed by the offline wallet to strictly enforce how much in fees will be paid - so if MITM somehow can choose your inputs, you could be sending more coins than you realize.
3119 2013-04-04 20:22:18 <gmaxwell> this is very easily solved by never signing a transaction without having a copy of the inputs
3120 2013-04-04 20:22:20 <kadoban> jspilman: i don't think it could, or i don't know how testnet-in-a-box would work
3121 2013-04-04 20:22:28 BlackPrapor has quit (2!~kvirc@140.128.broadband15.iol.cz|Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3122 2013-04-04 20:22:32 <gmaxwell> and you can be absolutely sure that the input copy is right because you reference the inputs by hash.
3123 2013-04-04 20:22:40 <Diapolo> 546, uint256("000000002a936ca763904c3c35fce2f3556c559c0214345d31b1bcebf76acb70"
3124 2013-04-04 20:22:41 <gmaxwell> And because of thisâ the BIP 10 format specifies inputs.
3125 2013-04-04 20:22:48 svara_ has joined
3126 2013-04-04 20:22:58 <Diapolo> jspilman: that is the testnet checkpoint ^^
3127 2013-04-04 20:23:11 hydrogenesis has joined
3128 2013-04-04 20:23:12 <jspilman> does that mean block 546?
3129 2013-04-04 20:23:35 <Diapolo> afaik yes
3130 2013-04-04 20:23:45 * jspilman looking at BIP10
3131 2013-04-04 20:24:45 <sipa> Diapolo: known problem; it does resume, when a new block is announced
3132 2013-04-04 20:25:18 cryptorific has left ()
3133 2013-04-04 20:25:35 <Diapolo> sipa: any bugfix for this without the need for a deep IBD rewrite?
3134 2013-04-04 20:26:08 <sipa> Diapolo: yeah, i'll have a look soon at that
3135 2013-04-04 20:26:17 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3136 2013-04-04 20:26:55 i2pRelay has joined
3137 2013-04-04 20:26:59 <Diapolo> that would be a nice one :)
3138 2013-04-04 20:27:17 grau has joined
3139 2013-04-04 20:27:26 <gmaxwell> jspilman: that attack isn't just profitable for miners,â presumably you could _sell_ such a transaction to a miner.
3140 2013-04-04 20:27:35 <jspilman> gmaxwell: good point
3141 2013-04-04 20:27:58 <jspilman> Doesn't look like Armory has implemented BIP10 yet
3142 2013-04-04 20:28:02 <gmaxwell> but in any caseâ its fixed by knowing the inputsâ which any spv client will.
3143 2013-04-04 20:28:23 <gmaxwell> jspilman: hm? I thought it was basically documenting armory's behavior.
3144 2013-04-04 20:28:44 <jspilman> yes, I guess it's only for ice cold wallets where you don't want to copy blockchain around, or can't
3145 2013-04-04 20:28:45 <Diapolo> testnet genesis block time is that? block.nTime = 1296688602;
3146 2013-04-04 20:28:58 <jspilman> I see the raw tx, and I see this: _TXINPUT_00_42.99950000
3147 2013-04-04 20:29:20 nova907767 has joined
3148 2013-04-04 20:29:34 <jspilman> so it's a hack right now in Armory, not BIP10 -- that's 0.87.2-beta
3149 2013-04-04 20:29:55 <jspilman> the only thing protecting that from being changed I think is a checksum, no crypto
3150 2013-04-04 20:30:08 <MC-Droid> youd have to 51 it permanently remember
3151 2013-04-04 20:30:24 <MC-Droid> wops never mind
3152 2013-04-04 20:30:35 <gmaxwell> jspilman: ah, I guess he didn't update it yet.
3153 2013-04-04 20:30:56 tvbcof has left ("WeeChat 0.4.0")
3154 2013-04-04 20:31:00 RedEmerald has quit (Changing host)
3155 2013-04-04 20:31:00 RedEmerald has joined
3156 2013-04-04 20:31:01 <jspilman> ok, BIP10 solves it for sure
3157 2013-04-04 20:31:04 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
3158 2013-04-04 20:31:04 <gribble> 229695
3159 2013-04-04 20:31:34 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3160 2013-04-04 20:31:40 <gmaxwell> jspilman: "you're welcome"
3161 2013-04-04 20:31:54 tvbcof has joined
3162 2013-04-04 20:32:30 ColinT has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
3163 2013-04-04 20:32:31 nova90 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3164 2013-04-04 20:32:45 <jspilman> gmaxwell: thanks!! of course!! "you solved it" is the best you're welcome a coder can come up with :-)
3165 2013-04-04 20:32:50 <jspilman> *thank you
3166 2013-04-04 20:33:01 <jspilman> weird: "This proposal has been implemented and tested in the Armory Bitcoin software for use in offline-wallet transaction signing (as a 1-of-1 transaction), and will eventually use it for multi-signature transcations."
3167 2013-04-04 20:33:18 lodse has joined
3168 2013-04-04 20:33:29 D34TH_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3169 2013-04-04 20:33:35 <jspilman> we'll have to wait for etotheipi to see what I'm doing wrong I guess
3170 2013-04-04 20:34:03 <gmaxwell> jspilman: well, that might be old textâ the original BIP10 didn't include the inputs an I whined at etotheipi.
3171 2013-04-04 20:34:20 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3172 2013-04-04 20:34:46 <jspilman> do we need a way for people to !tip a BIP with an expiration date, to encourage adoption? :-)
3173 2013-04-04 20:34:58 i2pRelay has joined
3174 2013-04-04 20:37:41 colintulloch has joined
3175 2013-04-04 20:37:51 c00w has joined
3176 2013-04-04 20:37:54 D34TH has joined
3177 2013-04-04 20:37:54 D34TH has quit (Changing host)
3178 2013-04-04 20:37:54 D34TH has joined
3179 2013-04-04 20:38:29 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3180 2013-04-04 20:38:37 D34TH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3181 2013-04-04 20:38:44 hydrogenesis has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
3182 2013-04-04 20:38:56 D34TH has joined
3183 2013-04-04 20:39:22 calx has joined
3184 2013-04-04 20:40:38 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3185 2013-04-04 20:41:58 owowo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3186 2013-04-04 20:42:23 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3187 2013-04-04 20:42:42 jeewee has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3188 2013-04-04 20:42:55 i2pRelay has joined
3189 2013-04-04 20:43:15 tyn has joined
3190 2013-04-04 20:44:18 Insti has joined
3191 2013-04-04 20:44:20 owowo has joined
3192 2013-04-04 20:44:23 mercerist has joined
3193 2013-04-04 20:46:57 BlackPrapor has joined
3194 2013-04-04 20:47:20 phma__ has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
3195 2013-04-04 20:47:39 SwedFTP2 has joined
3196 2013-04-04 20:47:39 SwedFTP has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3197 2013-04-04 20:49:10 Diapolo has left ()
3198 2013-04-04 20:49:58 realazthat has joined
3199 2013-04-04 20:50:26 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3200 2013-04-04 20:50:37 realazthat has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3201 2013-04-04 20:50:58 i2pRelay has joined
3202 2013-04-04 20:51:01 lodse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3203 2013-04-04 20:51:17 realazthat has joined
3204 2013-04-04 20:51:58 Pinion has joined
3205 2013-04-04 20:52:08 colintulloch has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
3206 2013-04-04 20:52:22 Pinion is now known as Guest20591
3207 2013-04-04 20:52:26 colintulloch has joined
3208 2013-04-04 20:52:57 colintulloch has quit (Client Quit)
3209 2013-04-04 20:54:09 ColinT has joined
3210 2013-04-04 20:55:48 grau has joined
3211 2013-04-04 20:56:26 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3212 2013-04-04 20:57:22 jtimon_ has joined
3213 2013-04-04 20:57:48 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3214 2013-04-04 20:58:30 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3215 2013-04-04 20:58:38 <jspilman> etotheipi has a Feb'12 comment in the code about your enhancement to BIP10... and I see it in the serializeAscii code, but the place it's looking for txIn signatures is never actually populated, so I don't think you will ever see a '_SIG_%s_%02d_%s' printed -- https://github.com/etotheipi/BitcoinArmory/blob/qtdev/armoryengine.py#L4704 -- apparently no open issue on github
3216 2013-04-04 20:58:53 <jspilman> you think I should add one, or wait till etotheipi comes back on IRC?
3217 2013-04-04 20:59:01 i2pRelay has joined
3218 2013-04-04 20:59:12 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3219 2013-04-04 21:00:31 FredEE has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3220 2013-04-04 21:04:03 sfraise has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3221 2013-04-04 21:04:22 sfraise has joined
3222 2013-04-04 21:05:31 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3223 2013-04-04 21:06:31 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3224 2013-04-04 21:07:03 i2pRelay has joined
3225 2013-04-04 21:07:05 normanrichards has joined
3226 2013-04-04 21:07:25 _W_ has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
3227 2013-04-04 21:08:42 brson has joined
3228 2013-04-04 21:08:55 _W_ has joined
3229 2013-04-04 21:09:58 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
3230 2013-04-04 21:12:47 whizter has quit ()
3231 2013-04-04 21:14:31 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3232 2013-04-04 21:14:45 neo2 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3233 2013-04-04 21:14:56 andytoshi has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0)
3234 2013-04-04 21:15:04 i2pRelay has joined
3235 2013-04-04 21:15:22 bibbybob has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3236 2013-04-04 21:16:05 andytoshi has joined
3237 2013-04-04 21:16:12 abueesp has joined
3238 2013-04-04 21:16:21 Prattler has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
3239 2013-04-04 21:16:22 has joined
3240 2013-04-04 21:16:45 b4tt3r135 has joined
3241 2013-04-04 21:16:47 abueesp is now known as basylib
3242 2013-04-04 21:20:06 rdymac has joined
3243 2013-04-04 21:20:29 D34TH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3244 2013-04-04 21:20:58 D34TH has joined
3245 2013-04-04 21:21:15 coolfengyu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
3246 2013-04-04 21:22:29 coolfengyu has joined
3247 2013-04-04 21:22:33 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3248 2013-04-04 21:22:43 <helo> what validation is done before sending with sendrawtransaction?
3249 2013-04-04 21:22:45 deadweasel has quit (Quit: leaving)
3250 2013-04-04 21:23:04 <sipa> whether the client itself would relay it if received via p2p
3251 2013-04-04 21:23:05 i2pRelay has joined
3252 2013-04-04 21:24:04 <helo> was refusing to send without being synched. thanks :)
3253 2013-04-04 21:24:13 <gmaxwell> helo: you didn't know the inputs.
3254 2013-04-04 21:24:25 <helo> yup
3255 2013-04-04 21:24:33 SwedFTP2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3256 2013-04-04 21:24:48 SwedFTP has joined
3257 2013-04-04 21:25:00 deadweasel has joined
3258 2013-04-04 21:25:06 SwedFTP has quit (Changing host)
3259 2013-04-04 21:25:06 SwedFTP has joined
3260 2013-04-04 21:25:14 D34TH has quit (Client Quit)
3261 2013-04-04 21:26:21 Bohren has joined
3262 2013-04-04 21:28:01 Ashaman has joined
3263 2013-04-04 21:28:36 viperhr1 has joined
3264 2013-04-04 21:28:38 D34TH has joined
3265 2013-04-04 21:28:38 D34TH has quit (Changing host)
3266 2013-04-04 21:28:38 D34TH has joined
3267 2013-04-04 21:29:42 <sipa> ;;blocks
3268 2013-04-04 21:29:43 <gribble> 229704
3269 2013-04-04 21:30:34 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3270 2013-04-04 21:31:06 i2pRelay has joined
3271 2013-04-04 21:33:31 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3272 2013-04-04 21:33:42 pgvoorhees has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3273 2013-04-04 21:34:01 o3u has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3274 2013-04-04 21:34:35 Ashaman_ has joined
3275 2013-04-04 21:35:12 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3276 2013-04-04 21:36:20 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3277 2013-04-04 21:36:51 lodse has joined
3278 2013-04-04 21:37:22 zeiris has joined
3279 2013-04-04 21:37:51 robocoin has quit (Quit: (â¯Â°â¡Â°ï¼â¯ï¸µ â»ââ»)
3280 2013-04-04 21:38:36 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3281 2013-04-04 21:39:11 i2pRelay has joined
3282 2013-04-04 21:40:29 graingert has joined
3283 2013-04-04 21:40:34 graingert has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
3284 2013-04-04 21:40:50 robocoin has joined
3285 2013-04-04 21:40:59 graingert has joined
3286 2013-04-04 21:41:23 graingert is now known as Guest5849
3287 2013-04-04 21:41:29 brson has joined
3288 2013-04-04 21:41:49 da2ce7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3289 2013-04-04 21:42:08 da2ce7 has joined
3290 2013-04-04 21:42:19 _anon has joined
3291 2013-04-04 21:42:27 DrAkaman has joined
3292 2013-04-04 21:43:15 graingert_ has joined
3293 2013-04-04 21:43:23 qeb has joined
3294 2013-04-04 21:43:39 graingert_ is now known as Guest31346
3295 2013-04-04 21:43:41 Guest31346 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
3296 2013-04-04 21:44:04 Guest31346 has joined
3297 2013-04-04 21:44:28 Darin has joined
3298 2013-04-04 21:44:37 DrAkaman has quit (Client Quit)
3299 2013-04-04 21:44:47 Guest5849 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3300 2013-04-04 21:46:44 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3301 2013-04-04 21:47:11 i2pRelay has joined
3302 2013-04-04 21:48:17 D34TH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3303 2013-04-04 21:48:36 D34TH has joined
3304 2013-04-04 21:48:36 D34TH has quit (Changing host)
3305 2013-04-04 21:48:36 D34TH has joined
3306 2013-04-04 21:50:06 Diablo-D3 has joined
3307 2013-04-04 21:52:04 Guest28960 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3308 2013-04-04 21:53:21 Guest31346 has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
3309 2013-04-04 21:53:34 Guest31346 has joined
3310 2013-04-04 21:53:34 Guest31346 has quit (Client Quit)
3311 2013-04-04 21:54:02 graingert__ has joined
3312 2013-04-04 21:54:21 JWU42 has quit (Quit: leaving)
3313 2013-04-04 21:54:22 graingert__ is now known as graingert
3314 2013-04-04 21:54:42 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3315 2013-04-04 21:55:11 i2pRelay has joined
3316 2013-04-04 21:56:01 <svara_> how do deterministic wallets actually work, i.e. how do the clients decide how many public/private key pairs to generate from the seed when importing the deterministic wallet seed?
3317 2013-04-04 21:56:35 <redeeman> i guess thats application specific
3318 2013-04-04 21:56:38 <sipa> as many as you need + a few more, to detect spends from a copy of the wallet
3319 2013-04-04 21:56:57 <redeeman> if i were to guess, they maybe attempt to generate and then when it finds the newly generated ones are unused, it tries X and then quits?
3320 2013-04-04 21:57:37 nomailin1 has joined
3321 2013-04-04 21:57:57 <svara_> yeah, cause then you have the bug where you generate lots of receiving addresses with 0 balance and then another one with positive balance, and the coins in that one are lost
3322 2013-04-04 21:57:58 diki has quit (Quit: Bye)
3323 2013-04-04 21:58:04 <svara_> that's why i'm asking
3324 2013-04-04 21:58:16 c00w has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
3325 2013-04-04 21:58:39 o3u has joined
3326 2013-04-04 21:59:00 b4tt3r135 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3327 2013-04-04 21:59:17 _anon has quit (Quit: _anon)
3328 2013-04-04 21:59:23 gdoteof has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3329 2013-04-04 22:00:34 <gmaxwell> svara_: you just generate some sutiably large number ahead.
3330 2013-04-04 22:01:04 sfraise has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3331 2013-04-04 22:01:57 discrete has joined
3332 2013-04-04 22:02:42 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3333 2013-04-04 22:03:11 i2pRelay has joined
3334 2013-04-04 22:03:32 Ashaman_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3335 2013-04-04 22:03:39 coolfengyu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3336 2013-04-04 22:04:41 lodse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3337 2013-04-04 22:05:44 tyn has joined
3338 2013-04-04 22:05:53 coolfengyu has joined
3339 2013-04-04 22:07:16 valparaiso is now known as valparaiso_afk
3340 2013-04-04 22:09:19 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3341 2013-04-04 22:10:39 qeb has quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"])
3342 2013-04-04 22:10:44 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3343 2013-04-04 22:10:56 <jspilman> generating the addresses is extremely fast, because you're not using new private keys each time, just derivative keys which only need a multiplication mod n. vanitygen can do that on a laptop at 500,000 keys per second. of course you need an efficient way to monitor for outputs to those keys (bloom filter)
3344 2013-04-04 22:11:17 i2pRelay has joined
3345 2013-04-04 22:11:20 <sipa> jspilman: the keys vanitygen generates are not independent though
3346 2013-04-04 22:11:36 <jspilman> "laptop" meaning my 3 year old mac air
3347 2013-04-04 22:11:46 <sipa> they are [n,n+1,n+2,n+3,...], with only n randomly generated
3348 2013-04-04 22:12:00 <jspilman> neither are the deterministic keys though, right?
3349 2013-04-04 22:12:26 <sipa> right, indeed, but the point is that they don't each individually need an EC multiplication to compute the public key
3350 2013-04-04 22:12:37 <sipa> for deterministic wallets, you do want that
3351 2013-04-04 22:12:48 <sipa> as otherwise loss of one means loss of all
3352 2013-04-04 22:13:54 normanrichards has quit ()
3353 2013-04-04 22:14:44 <jspilman> HMAC-SHA512(Key=cpar, Data=Kpar || i) ... Ki is equal to IL*Kpar.
3354 2013-04-04 22:14:51 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I thought vanitygen started over for every result
3355 2013-04-04 22:15:07 Ashaman has joined
3356 2013-04-04 22:15:07 <jspilman> sipa -- I think they have a 'per 1,000,000' rekeying
3357 2013-04-04 22:15:17 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it's not starting over 500,000 times per second
3358 2013-04-04 22:15:26 <jspilman> which if you change to 1, drops your rate to like 3,000 checks per second
3359 2013-04-04 22:15:42 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: nor is it finding results every second :P
3360 2013-04-04 22:15:42 <jspilman> theres a static to set it however you want
3361 2013-04-04 22:16:43 <jspilman> sipa: you're saying what vanitygen is doing is even less than 'kpar*rand' and 'Kpar*rand'?
3362 2013-04-04 22:16:51 Aziz_ has joined
3363 2013-04-04 22:16:56 <sipa> jspilman: yes
3364 2013-04-04 22:17:09 <sipa> it's doing kpar++ Kpar+=H
3365 2013-04-04 22:17:13 <sipa> eh, +=G
3366 2013-04-04 22:17:17 <jspilman> I didn't follow all their "this part makes is blazingly fast' code
3367 2013-04-04 22:17:19 CaptainBlaze has joined
3368 2013-04-04 22:17:30 <jspilman> I didn't realize EC was homomorphic like that!
3369 2013-04-04 22:17:31 darkee has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3370 2013-04-04 22:17:31 GordonG3kko has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3371 2013-04-04 22:17:44 <jspilman> thanks
3372 2013-04-04 22:17:45 <sipa> it's a group :)
3373 2013-04-04 22:18:08 <sipa> pubkey = privkey * G
3374 2013-04-04 22:18:23 <jspilman> yeah, it's obvious when I stop to *think* about it
3375 2013-04-04 22:18:27 <jspilman> doh
3376 2013-04-04 22:18:51 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3377 2013-04-04 22:18:53 <sipa> hmm, the thread cleanup now causes my bitcoind process to appear in top as 'bitcoin-start'
3378 2013-04-04 22:18:54 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3379 2013-04-04 22:19:04 GordonG3kko has joined
3380 2013-04-04 22:19:28 PhantomSpark has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3381 2013-04-04 22:19:39 i2pRelay has joined
3382 2013-04-04 22:20:02 leonsk has joined
3383 2013-04-04 22:20:08 <leonsk> What do I have to do to submit a translation to bitcoin's wiki?
3384 2013-04-04 22:20:42 PrinceCortex has joined
3385 2013-04-04 22:21:01 TD has joined
3386 2013-04-04 22:22:57 Xeno-Genesis has joined
3387 2013-04-04 22:23:03 Xeno-Genesis has quit (Client Quit)
3388 2013-04-04 22:23:13 <svara_> i see, that explains it, i didn't realize generating new addresses could actually be very fast
3389 2013-04-04 22:26:14 PrinceCortex has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3390 2013-04-04 22:26:48 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3391 2013-04-04 22:27:19 i2pRelay has joined
3392 2013-04-04 22:28:06 OneFixt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3393 2013-04-04 22:28:25 OneFixt has joined
3394 2013-04-04 22:30:36 manet_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3395 2013-04-04 22:31:07 mercerist has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
3396 2013-04-04 22:34:50 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3397 2013-04-04 22:34:55 Darin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
3398 2013-04-04 22:35:38 i2pRelay has joined
3399 2013-04-04 22:36:51 coolfengyu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3400 2013-04-04 22:39:23 coolfengyu has joined
3401 2013-04-04 22:40:22 jtimon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3402 2013-04-04 22:41:14 lodse has joined
3403 2013-04-04 22:41:18 zeiris has quit (Quit: segfault)
3404 2013-04-04 22:41:32 Xeno-Genesis has joined
3405 2013-04-04 22:42:11 stikonas has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3406 2013-04-04 22:42:52 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3407 2013-04-04 22:43:35 PhantomSpark has joined
3408 2013-04-04 22:43:40 i2pRelay has joined
3409 2013-04-04 22:44:18 gagecolton has joined
3410 2013-04-04 22:45:28 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3411 2013-04-04 22:45:43 duckybsd has joined
3412 2013-04-04 22:46:40 HiWEB has joined
3413 2013-04-04 22:48:16 rayvellest has left ("http://coinners.com")
3414 2013-04-04 22:49:31 one_zero has joined
3415 2013-04-04 22:50:52 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3416 2013-04-04 22:51:26 i2pRelay has joined
3417 2013-04-04 22:54:30 <bonks> Is there a way to view not only the account, but which address was used to send a transaction in gettransaction?
3418 2013-04-04 22:54:47 leonsk has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3419 2013-04-04 22:55:06 tyn has joined
3420 2013-04-04 22:55:11 Anduck has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3421 2013-04-04 22:56:27 Aziz_ has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
3422 2013-04-04 22:56:29 ColinT has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
3423 2013-04-04 22:57:34 basylib is now known as [userme]
3424 2013-04-04 22:57:39 rdymac has joined
3425 2013-04-04 22:58:55 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3426 2013-04-04 22:59:04 HiWEB has quit (Quit: Gotta Jibboo)
3427 2013-04-04 22:59:27 i2pRelay has joined
3428 2013-04-04 23:00:18 Anduck has joined
3429 2013-04-04 23:00:18 Anduck has quit (Changing host)
3430 2013-04-04 23:00:18 Anduck has joined
3431 2013-04-04 23:00:22 Xeno-Genesis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3432 2013-04-04 23:02:22 polaman has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3433 2013-04-04 23:04:04 <sipa> ;;blocks
3434 2013-04-04 23:04:05 <gribble> 229709
3435 2013-04-04 23:04:14 B0g4r7 has joined
3436 2013-04-04 23:06:57 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3437 2013-04-04 23:07:17 lodse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3438 2013-04-04 23:07:28 i2pRelay has joined
3439 2013-04-04 23:07:40 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3440 2013-04-04 23:07:47 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3441 2013-04-04 23:09:20 <graingert> bonks: getrawtransaction?
3442 2013-04-04 23:09:31 <graingert> bonks: will give you the scriptSig
3443 2013-04-04 23:13:52 * bonks googles how to read scriptSig
3444 2013-04-04 23:14:56 systemParanoid has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3445 2013-04-04 23:14:59 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3446 2013-04-04 23:15:08 <bonks> Cool just use a verbose number
3447 2013-04-04 23:15:32 i2pRelay has joined
3448 2013-04-04 23:17:36 <graingert> bonks: uhh?
3449 2013-04-04 23:18:03 <bonks> getrawtransaction address 1
3450 2013-04-04 23:18:16 <bonks> By default it outputs only hex. if verbose=1 it outputs an object
3451 2013-04-04 23:18:45 <bonks> Still I don't see the source addresses. Just the destination and change address
3452 2013-04-04 23:19:11 <gmaxwell> bonks: there are no source addresses in bitcoin transactions at all.
3453 2013-04-04 23:19:38 agricocb has joined
3454 2013-04-04 23:19:38 pacorgrr has joined
3455 2013-04-04 23:19:42 <gmaxwell> bonks: at best you can try to guestimate that the source of a transaction is the prior to address(es) but this is not terribly reliable.
3456 2013-04-04 23:19:57 <gmaxwell> bonks: to do that you'd getrawtransaction on the inputs that got spent and see where they were destined.
3457 2013-04-04 23:20:08 zrad has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3458 2013-04-04 23:20:43 <bonks> gmaxwell: But what if I didn't know the inputs?
3459 2013-04-04 23:20:58 <gmaxwell> bonks: didn't know how?
3460 2013-04-04 23:21:23 <bonks> Like all I have is the txid and destination address. From this, how do I determine the source addresses?
3461 2013-04-04 23:21:41 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3462 2013-04-04 23:21:45 <gmaxwell> bonks: there are no source addresses in bitcoin transactions at all.
3463 2013-04-04 23:21:50 <gmaxwell> bonks: at best you can try to guestimate that the source of a transaction is the prior to address(es) but this is not terribly reliable.
3464 2013-04-04 23:22:05 agricocb has joined
3465 2013-04-04 23:22:06 <gmaxwell> get raw transaction on the txid to get the inputs
3466 2013-04-04 23:22:16 <gmaxwell> then get raw transaction on each of those to get their outputs.
3467 2013-04-04 23:22:23 <gmaxwell> Pray that this isn't all pure fantasy.
3468 2013-04-04 23:22:32 pacorgrr is now known as manoliyo
3469 2013-04-04 23:22:36 <bonks> Ohhhhh I see the txid for each of the inputs
3470 2013-04-04 23:22:59 berni23 has joined
3471 2013-04-04 23:22:59 berni23 has quit (Changing host)
3472 2013-04-04 23:22:59 berni23 has joined
3473 2013-04-04 23:23:01 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3474 2013-04-04 23:23:31 bernard75 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3475 2013-04-04 23:23:33 i2pRelay has joined
3476 2013-04-04 23:23:48 <bonks> There we go that works
3477 2013-04-04 23:24:18 ColinT has joined
3478 2013-04-04 23:24:22 <bonks> "not terribly reliable" is that a double negative?
3479 2013-04-04 23:24:31 <sipa> bonks: depends what you want to use it for
3480 2013-04-04 23:25:04 dkog has joined
3481 2013-04-04 23:25:05 <sipa> if you're genuinly interested in the address corresponding to the key that previously held the right to spend the coin, it's the correct way of working
3482 2013-04-04 23:25:07 <gmaxwell> bonks: terribly is an emphasizing word in that use "I am terribly happy to see you!"
3483 2013-04-04 23:25:18 <bonks> sipa: I just wanted to know which source addresses were used in a transaction
3484 2013-04-04 23:25:19 dkog has left ()
3485 2013-04-04 23:25:26 zeiris has joined
3486 2013-04-04 23:25:27 <gmaxwell> There is no source addresses. :(
3487 2013-04-04 23:25:29 <sipa> bonks: THERE ARE NO SOURCE ADDRESSES
3488 2013-04-04 23:25:55 <sipa> there are potentially addresses that correspond to the keys that previously held the right to spend the coins
3489 2013-04-04 23:26:06 <sipa> but this is often very useful information
3490 2013-04-04 23:26:13 <sipa> *useless!
3491 2013-04-04 23:26:39 <TheSeven> just a quick question from a stratum point of view: is the coinbase transaction size constant?
3492 2013-04-04 23:26:46 <gmaxwell> For example, if you want to refund a transaction you should absolutely not use the prior-to. The coins will not-infrequently go to the wrong person or even into a black hole.
3493 2013-04-04 23:27:34 <gmaxwell> TheSeven: Unless stratum is doing something weird (and awful) that I'm unaware ofâ no.
3494 2013-04-04 23:27:50 <lianj> right, its still the source address, just not the return address
3495 2013-04-04 23:28:13 <bonks> Ok so let me try again. I wanted to know, from a txid, which addresses executed a transaction to send from it to this txid. Is this better?
3496 2013-04-04 23:28:37 <sipa> lianj: what if a transaction uses an input of a non-standard output script?
3497 2013-04-04 23:28:57 <lianj> and because with normal bitcoin-qt you cant predirct what addresses the client takes when you sent a tx, the source address is somewhat meaningless. you cant say, hey i will send you 5 btc from my address <foo>
3498 2013-04-04 23:29:17 <TheSeven> bonks: if you rephrase that to "the owner of of the keys of which address", then AFAIK yes
3499 2013-04-04 23:29:24 <TheSeven> s/of of/of/
3500 2013-04-04 23:29:31 <lianj> sipa: then it has none of both (src,dst9
3501 2013-04-04 23:29:57 <sipa> well i can spend an output that is assigned to a non-standard script, and send it to a standard script
3502 2013-04-04 23:30:37 <lianj> sure, then it has now src address
3503 2013-04-04 23:30:40 <bonks> TheSeven: Thanks. I think I somewhat understand now. I just need a deeper knowledge
3504 2013-04-04 23:30:41 <lianj> s/now/no
3505 2013-04-04 23:30:48 <sipa> bonks: right, if you want to know which addresses correspond to the keys that signed the input(s), and assume those exist (i.e. it's not a weird transaction type), then you are right
3506 2013-04-04 23:30:58 <ryan-c> Does slush come around on IRC at all?
3507 2013-04-04 23:31:03 <sipa> ryan-c: sometimes
3508 2013-04-04 23:31:03 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3509 2013-04-04 23:31:13 <ryan-c> as slush, or something else?
3510 2013-04-04 23:31:17 darkee has joined
3511 2013-04-04 23:31:23 <sipa> slush or slushcz afaik
3512 2013-04-04 23:31:35 i2pRelay has joined
3513 2013-04-04 23:31:35 <ryan-c> thanks
3514 2013-04-04 23:31:58 <sipa> slush
3515 2013-04-04 23:32:35 <sipa> bonks: sorry for the aggresive response, but all too often people come here to ask what to from address is so they can send coins back
3516 2013-04-04 23:32:49 <Luke-Jr> I've seen him as slush2
3517 2013-04-04 23:33:22 robocoin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3518 2013-04-04 23:33:28 <TheSeven> is it a reasonable assumption that no block will contain more than 2^16 transactions in the forseeable future?
3519 2013-04-04 23:33:34 hsmithsN7 has joined
3520 2013-04-04 23:33:36 <sipa> yes
3521 2013-04-04 23:33:47 canoon has joined
3522 2013-04-04 23:34:02 <sipa> without block size limit change, that's pretty much impossible
3523 2013-04-04 23:34:07 <bonks> sipa: No worries I appreciate the lessons. Just trying to learn and you guys help tremendously
3524 2013-04-04 23:34:09 <TheSeven> or actually 2^17 if I have coinbase + 16 merkle branches
3525 2013-04-04 23:34:18 manoliyo is now known as manoliyo2
3526 2013-04-04 23:35:06 <sipa> i used to know absolute minimum theoretical transaction size
3527 2013-04-04 23:35:35 manoliyo2 is now known as manoliyo
3528 2013-04-04 23:36:33 <sipa> 60 bytes, it seems
3529 2013-04-04 23:38:19 <sipa> so in theory, you could have 16665 transactions (including coinbase) in a block...
3530 2013-04-04 23:38:29 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
3531 2013-04-04 23:39:06 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3532 2013-04-04 23:39:42 i2pRelay has joined
3533 2013-04-04 23:40:36 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3534 2013-04-04 23:41:25 [userme] is now known as abueesp
3535 2013-04-04 23:42:38 stretchwarren has joined
3536 2013-04-04 23:42:48 <owowo> sooo,.. it's Btcguildcoin now...
3537 2013-04-04 23:43:09 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
3538 2013-04-04 23:44:10 <owowo> btcguild at 48%... would be nice if admin of btcguild could close registration, maybe noobs would choose another pool.
3539 2013-04-04 23:44:16 <owowo> just an idea.
3540 2013-04-04 23:44:56 <owowo> will be interesting, when/if bfl will ship and all bflnoobs will mine on btcguild...
3541 2013-04-04 23:45:22 <deadweasel> ok. i have installed bitcoind on air gapped machine. 1 hand typing due to sprained wrist, terse messages to follow.
3542 2013-04-04 23:45:44 Jere_Jones has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3543 2013-04-04 23:45:54 <deadweasel> ned to create wallet now for cold storage... any guides? ubunto 12.04 x64
3544 2013-04-04 23:46:15 <deadweasel> :) danke
3545 2013-04-04 23:46:26 chylee has joined
3546 2013-04-04 23:46:54 Belxjander has joined
3547 2013-04-04 23:47:07 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3548 2013-04-04 23:47:38 i2pRelay has joined
3549 2013-04-04 23:48:33 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3550 2013-04-04 23:48:37 sagax_ has left ("Leaving")
3551 2013-04-04 23:48:44 Guest20591 has quit (Quit: Has quit)
3552 2013-04-04 23:49:06 <fiesh> owowo: why should he do that?
3553 2013-04-04 23:49:23 has quit (_STIMPY_|!~doddy@5ac82b64.bb.sky.com|Quit: I love my HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-)
3554 2013-04-04 23:49:50 ProfMac has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3555 2013-04-04 23:50:03 FredEE has joined
3556 2013-04-04 23:50:04 bernie has left ("+++ATH0")
3557 2013-04-04 23:53:05 BlackPrapor has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3558 2013-04-04 23:54:19 BlackPrapor has joined
3559 2013-04-04 23:55:09 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3560 2013-04-04 23:55:40 i2pRelay has joined
3561 2013-04-04 23:55:46 kermit_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3562 2013-04-04 23:57:00 ProfMac has joined
3563 2013-04-04 23:58:59 clarkm has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)