1 2013-04-07 00:01:15 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
   2 2013-04-07 00:01:52 <BCB> ;;ticker --last
   3 2013-04-07 00:01:53 <gribble> 143.50001
   4 2013-04-07 00:06:39 <clav8> is there any real reason to diverge from the bitcoind reference settings?
   5 2013-04-07 00:07:31 ColinT has joined
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  11 2013-04-07 00:13:06 <K1773R> second file is the ami privkey
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  21 2013-04-07 00:30:24 <rick2g> lk
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  25 2013-04-07 00:35:52 lolant is now known as zero
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  29 2013-04-07 00:40:44 <lianj> http://blockexplorer.com/block/00000000000a4d0a398161ffc163c503763b1f4360639393e0e4c8e300e0caec fun
  30 2013-04-07 00:41:37 PixelCrumbs is now known as [PixelCrumbs]
  31 2013-04-07 00:41:38 <K1773R> nice find
  32 2013-04-07 00:41:48 ColinT has joined
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  34 2013-04-07 00:42:27 <gmaxwell> Not much of a find— considering that that block is hardcoded in the source. :P
  35 2013-04-07 00:42:30 <lianj> i had a hash uniq index for the db im importing the blockchain and index generation failed :D damn
  36 2013-04-07 00:42:45 <lianj> gmaxwell: tell me that earlier next time :P
  37 2013-04-07 00:43:05 ielo has joined
  38 2013-04-07 00:43:10 <gmaxwell> lianj: I continued to be frightened by people writing their own blockchain rules handling software… :P
  39 2013-04-07 00:44:04 [PixelCrumbs] is now known as ASDF___
  40 2013-04-07 00:44:04 gagecolton has quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org)
  41 2013-04-07 00:44:14 <lianj> its not about the rules, im was importing a bootstrap.dat without checking the rules
  42 2013-04-07 00:44:19 ASDF___ is now known as PixelCrumbs
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  44 2013-04-07 00:45:22 <gmaxwell> A node that imposed uniqueness would have ended up on fork compared to a network that didn't ... back when we didn't.  We impose uniqueness now, but there are historical violations which must be excempted.
  45 2013-04-07 00:45:27 PixelCrumbs is now known as _-
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  50 2013-04-07 00:45:54 <gmaxwell> There is a nice 12 line comment about that in the source, along with a post about the relevant security vulnerability that existed.
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  52 2013-04-07 00:45:58 _- is now known as PixelCrumbs
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  56 2013-04-07 00:46:53 <lianj> better i found it now than never
  57 2013-04-07 00:47:52 owowo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  58 2013-04-07 00:48:04 <gmaxwell> ::nods:: But what other weird constraints are you imposing that don't yet have counterexamples in the chain? ... You should be careful and assume that you may permit some things which other things forbid, and forbid some things that the network permits and try to not be brittle.
  59 2013-04-07 00:48:39 owowo has joined
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  61 2013-04-07 00:49:00 <lianj> gmaxwell: yes, im aware of this
  62 2013-04-07 00:49:36 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
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  64 2013-04-07 00:50:10 * sipa benchmarks bitcoin on libsecp256k1
  65 2013-04-07 00:52:01 <CodeShark> 64 bit or 32 bit?
  66 2013-04-07 00:52:06 <CodeShark> or both? "_
  67 2013-04-07 00:52:11 <sipa> 64 bit
  68 2013-04-07 00:52:19 <sipa> hey, i want to show off
  69 2013-04-07 00:52:24 <CodeShark> haha
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  73 2013-04-07 00:55:13 <bwen> I think I heard that bitcoind will support multiple wallet management? is there an ETA?
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  75 2013-04-07 00:55:22 PixelCrumbs is now known as Pixel_Breaky
  76 2013-04-07 00:55:25 <sipa> 0.9
  77 2013-04-07 00:55:59 Bitcoinhecker has joined
  78 2013-04-07 00:56:05 <Bitcoinhecker> Hello world.
  79 2013-04-07 00:56:17 <bwen> I see how I can get all transactions from an account "listtransactions" but any way to get all transaction related to a specific address within the wallet?
  80 2013-04-07 00:56:30 <CodeShark> listreceivedbyaddress
  81 2013-04-07 00:56:51 <bwen> ahh I guess I overlooked that one
  82 2013-04-07 00:56:52 Tantadruj has joined
  83 2013-04-07 00:57:03 <CodeShark> the name is pretty self-explanatory :p
  84 2013-04-07 00:57:09 <Bitcoinhecker> Ehm, does anyone know more about the creator of bitcoins?
  85 2013-04-07 00:57:29 <bwen> CodeShark: I was in a ctrl+f highlight for "transaction" :P
  86 2013-04-07 00:57:29 <Luke-Jr> nope
  87 2013-04-07 00:57:33 clarkm has quit (Quit: leaving)
  88 2013-04-07 00:57:42 <sirk1t> good evening ladies and gentlemen
  89 2013-04-07 00:57:43 clarkm has joined
  90 2013-04-07 00:58:05 <sipa> Bitcoinhecker: the creator of bitcoins, or the creator of Bitcoin?
  91 2013-04-07 00:58:13 <sipa> the former would be miners :p
  92 2013-04-07 00:58:50 <CodeShark> it just so happens that the creator of the first bitcoins is also the creator of Bitcoin (but ironically wrote the program so that they are not spendable)
  93 2013-04-07 00:59:17 <sipa> CodeShark: can it technically be considered a bitcoin then?
  94 2013-04-07 00:59:32 nomailing has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  95 2013-04-07 00:59:34 <gmaxwell> And does it make a sound?
  96 2013-04-07 00:59:46 <bwen> CodeShark: actually that does not get transactions... way more info with "listtransactions"
  97 2013-04-07 01:00:13 ralphtheninja has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  98 2013-04-07 01:00:17 <CodeShark> if a bitcoin is generated in the block chain and there's no one there to spend it, does it exist?
  99 2013-04-07 01:00:34 kAntonio has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 100 2013-04-07 01:01:12 <bwen> what I'm looking for is the values "listtransactions" gives but only for a specific address. I know I could filter them all... but... meh :p
 101 2013-04-07 01:01:33 <sipa> gettransaction ?
 102 2013-04-07 01:01:52 <bwen> it requires the txid does it not?
 103 2013-04-07 01:02:01 <sipa> yes
 104 2013-04-07 01:02:03 <gmaxwell> bwen: the software expects that you'll generally only recieve funds to an address once.
 105 2013-04-07 01:02:15 <bwen> ic
 106 2013-04-07 01:03:06 <gmaxwell> There are some cases where it can be useful to do otherwise (e.g. reoccuring payments) but we'll be improving that in the future so that even in those cases you don't need to do that.
 107 2013-04-07 01:03:14 <bwen> I've been sending all my BTC to the same address >_<
 108 2013-04-07 01:03:54 <CodeShark> I reuse addresses a lot, too - when I really don't care about concealing my identity and would prefer not to have my wallet.dat file grow
 109 2013-04-07 01:04:00 <gmaxwell> The world doesn't end from that but it's not generally a good pratice— it degrades your privacy and that of everyone you trade with— and its somewhat less secure.
 110 2013-04-07 01:04:27 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: just set your keypool to 10,000, then set it back to 100. ... tada.
 111 2013-04-07 01:04:38 <CodeShark> then I have a large wallet to begin with
 112 2013-04-07 01:04:56 Pixel_Breaky is now known as PixelCrumbs
 113 2013-04-07 01:05:05 <gmaxwell> the keys are small compared to the transactions. .. though bdb does some weird stuff.
 114 2013-04-07 01:05:08 <bwen> gmaxwell: i'll keep that in mind
 115 2013-04-07 01:05:59 <CodeShark> in any case, it is practically trivial to associate input addresses and to determine which of the outputs is the change address for most transactions, the way the wallet is currently implemented
 116 2013-04-07 01:06:00 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: if it were efficiently stored... 10k private keys would only be like .. 320kbytes. Though in actuality you end up with a couple mb wallet doing that, though even that is hardly backbreaking.
 117 2013-04-07 01:06:36 <CodeShark> so any dedicated hacker could easily figure out these addresses belong to the same wallet
 118 2013-04-07 01:06:42 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: Yes, but using new addresses isn't at all about change.
 119 2013-04-07 01:06:45 <CodeShark> unless I take extra steps
 120 2013-04-07 01:06:57 <gmaxwell> s/ at //
 121 2013-04-07 01:06:57 <CodeShark> but if I take extra steps, I might as well just implement a different wallet
 122 2013-04-07 01:07:26 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: you can't keep all your funds in seperate wallets, sometimes you need to pay for things using funds from two (or N sources).
 123 2013-04-07 01:07:56 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: anything short of joint transactions with other people does very little as far as privacy
 124 2013-04-07 01:08:05 <CodeShark> and only complicates usability
 125 2013-04-07 01:08:07 Irencus has quit ()
 126 2013-04-07 01:08:07 <CodeShark> IMHO
 127 2013-04-07 01:08:09 <gmaxwell> Most of my transactions don't have change— but I manually construct them and have over time groomed my change into octaves.
 128 2013-04-07 01:08:47 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: most users won't bother to do that - you know that :p
 129 2013-04-07 01:09:03 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: Your 'humble' opinion has been previously lodged, and quite a few other people have insisted— to your deaf ears :) — that usability is so completely orthorgonal that your insistance otherwise is basically insulting.  ... Just 'saying. :P
 130 2013-04-07 01:09:15 Tantadruj has quit (Quit: DoubleRecall Turns Paywalls Into Advertising Dollars - NYTimes.com http://nyti.ms/odHOgy)
 131 2013-04-07 01:09:25 <petertodd> ...and I thought Luke was crazy.
 132 2013-04-07 01:09:32 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: I'm saying the way the wallet is CURRENTLY implemented, it complicates usability
 133 2013-04-07 01:09:39 elby has joined
 134 2013-04-07 01:09:41 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: oh absolutely nor should they need to worry about it. The software should do it automatically when doing so doesn't bother the user.
 135 2013-04-07 01:09:44 pikeadz has joined
 136 2013-04-07 01:09:49 <CodeShark> I'm not saying having good usability AND using a different address for each transaction are mutually exclusive
 137 2013-04-07 01:10:03 <CodeShark> but that requires a whole layer between the wallet and the UI
 138 2013-04-07 01:10:06 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: Yea, and that should and can be fixed. (hurray! agreement)
 139 2013-04-07 01:10:37 bitecoinerz has quit (Quit: bitecoinerz)
 140 2013-04-07 01:10:45 <gmaxwell> I'd like to figure out how UI/interface wise multiple wallets can be done that doesn't make it impossible to spend out of both when you need to. Any thoughts on that?
 141 2013-04-07 01:11:05 pikeadz has left ()
 142 2013-04-07 01:12:23 <bwen> gmaxwell: are you saying that if I send btc iin 0.9 and have multiple wallet it will gather funds cross wallets? O.o
 143 2013-04-07 01:12:23 <CodeShark> at the programmatic level, it would be nice to be able to query a wallet for a set of pubkeys and amounts
 144 2013-04-07 01:12:49 <CodeShark> then one wallet could query the other one for a certain amount, then construct a transaction, sign its inputs, then pass it to the other wallet to sign its inputs and send
 145 2013-04-07 01:13:18 <gmaxwell> bwen: the idea would be to be able to permit that _when you choose it_ without requiring you to do something terribly complicated.
 146 2013-04-07 01:13:38 <bwen> gmaxwell: ah aight :]
 147 2013-04-07 01:13:41 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: hm! having really good support for joint transactions would help with that, indeed. Might be interesting to just use the same mechenism for both.
 148 2013-04-07 01:13:41 <CodeShark> "give me a set of txouts totalling X"
 149 2013-04-07 01:13:56 <CodeShark> "and a change address"
 150 2013-04-07 01:14:23 <CodeShark> I was thinking the same thing, gmaxwell
 151 2013-04-07 01:14:34 <CodeShark> the wallets needn't belong to the same entity
 152 2013-04-07 01:14:51 crystalneth has joined
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 154 2013-04-07 01:15:06 <gmaxwell> I like that because it combines too somewhat rare uses into a single more common one.. makes education and testing easier. Also gives people a way to discover the possiblity of the other use.
 155 2013-04-07 01:15:11 <gmaxwell> s/too/two/
 156 2013-04-07 01:15:27 phish- has joined
 157 2013-04-07 01:15:33 <CodeShark> it supports joint transactions, signing from multiple devices by the same entity, or signing from two different wallets loaded in the same UI
 158 2013-04-07 01:15:42 <CodeShark> two or more
 159 2013-04-07 01:15:53 <CodeShark> the 0/1/infinity rule :)
 160 2013-04-07 01:15:55 Casimir1904 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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 163 2013-04-07 01:16:26 <gmaxwell> sipa: do you really intend pull 2418 to make the cumulative work print in hex?
 164 2013-04-07 01:17:08 <sipa> 2421s to reindex the first 230036 blocks, or 6466 tx/s
 165 2013-04-07 01:17:22 <sipa> not too impressive, given that it's on a quad core
 166 2013-04-07 01:17:27 owowo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 167 2013-04-07 01:17:31 <sipa> gmaxwell: hmm, that's mostly lazyness...
 168 2013-04-07 01:18:02 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: from a UI level, there should be a way to submit a transaction for signing to another wallet...but we'll need some access controls
 169 2013-04-07 01:18:02 owowo has joined
 170 2013-04-07 01:18:32 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: in general, from a "coin control" spend perspective what I'd like to be able to do is have people be able to build up a transaction by adding inputs and outputs.. AND by pasting in a transaction that has inputs and outputs already in it.
 171 2013-04-07 01:18:47 <CodeShark> right - then these operations can be chained
 172 2013-04-07 01:19:10 <CodeShark> you can't sign until all the inputs and outputs are there, though
 173 2013-04-07 01:19:20 <CodeShark> so you could have two phases
 174 2013-04-07 01:19:30 <CodeShark> in phase 1, it's just passed around and different wallets add inputs and outputs
 175 2013-04-07 01:19:35 <CodeShark> and in phase 2, each wallet signs its inputs
 176 2013-04-07 01:19:51 <Ogig> when all the bitcoins are mined, what will be the purpose of the difficulty and the ~10min/block limit?
 177 2013-04-07 01:20:06 <sipa> gmaxwell: though i don't really mind; is it useful to have it in decimal in the first place?
 178 2013-04-07 01:20:15 <gmaxwell> Ogig: the purpose of difficulty and 10min/block really doesn't have much to do with creating new coins in any case.
 179 2013-04-07 01:20:41 <CodeShark> work in decimal is pretty useless :p
 180 2013-04-07 01:20:56 <gmaxwell> sipa: I dunno. It surprised me when I went to tell someone how much computation we'd done... arguably that field isn't all that useful at all.. You and I are the only people I've ever seen use it, and we can do the conversion. :P
 181 2013-04-07 01:20:57 <CodeShark> it's not like it's a number that people really can make much sense out of
 182 2013-04-07 01:21:11 <gmaxwell> showing it in log2() might actually be more interesting.
 183 2013-04-07 01:22:06 <gmaxwell> Ogig: The primary purpose of mining is to create a global consensus about the state of the history of all the bitcoins which is infeasable for a computationally bounded attacker to tamper with.
 184 2013-04-07 01:22:06 <sipa> gmaxwell: good point
 185 2013-04-07 01:22:46 <gmaxwell> Ogig: the creation of new coins is just a well aligned side effect— it needed to happen somehow, so its useful to give them to people who are adding computation that makes bitcoin secure.
 186 2013-04-07 01:22:49 <sipa> Ogig: or in other words: the purpose of the difficulty, is to make sure blocks aren't produced too frequently
 187 2013-04-07 01:23:37 <gmaxwell> Ogig: and blocks need to be somewhat infrequent so they have time to propagate so people can form a consensus around them, if they came infinitely fast everyone would be off in their own bitcoin universe.
 188 2013-04-07 01:23:43 ColinT has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 189 2013-04-07 01:24:09 <CodeShark> not only that, gmaxwell - we need a predictable rate at which the money supply grows
 190 2013-04-07 01:24:12 <gmaxwell> (because they'd make their own new blocks before they heard about their neighbors new blocks due to delays in communication)
 191 2013-04-07 01:24:12 <Ogig> gmaxwell, that's the answer i was searching for. we need time for creating consensus
 192 2013-04-07 01:24:31 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: you can have predictble money supply without a constant block rate... you'd just make the subsidy depend on the block speed.
 193 2013-04-07 01:24:33 <bwen> why would a high block generation frequency be a bad thing? (excluding the payout for blocks found) Doesnt it mean faster confirmations?
 194 2013-04-07 01:24:40 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: true
 195 2013-04-07 01:24:42 <gmaxwell> (and there have been altcoins that have done that)
 196 2013-04-07 01:24:42 sirk1t has quit (Quit: sirk1t)
 197 2013-04-07 01:25:02 <CodeShark> bwen: litecoin has a higher generation frequency
 198 2013-04-07 01:25:08 <sipa> bwen: it means a higher advantage to an attacker who doesn't suffer from stale block mining
 199 2013-04-07 01:25:10 <CodeShark> if you want a case example
 200 2013-04-07 01:25:23 PixelCrumbs has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 201 2013-04-07 01:25:29 <gmaxwell> bwen: Because if the speed is too fast it hurts convergence, everyone ends up creating lots of forks instead of working on one common history.  More confirmations don't mean more security if people aren't learning about them faster and aren't putting in more computation.
 202 2013-04-07 01:25:47 <bwen> ic
 203 2013-04-07 01:25:49 <CodeShark> the entire network should only be a few seconds wide, right?
 204 2013-04-07 01:25:51 <Ogig> i was thinking: well, when coin release is not linked to block creation... we could make mining blocks easier so i could solo mine my own free transactions
 205 2013-04-07 01:26:12 <CodeShark> has anyone written any tools to count hops?
 206 2013-04-07 01:26:16 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: it's been minutes wide at some points in the past— though fixes in 0.7 and esp 0.8 improved it a lot.
 207 2013-04-07 01:26:33 <CodeShark> what's the bottleneck, gmaxwell?
 208 2013-04-07 01:26:37 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: hops aren't the big thing as much as nodes taking 30-60 seconds to validate a block.
 209 2013-04-07 01:26:44 <Ogig> but now i see that could be hard too coordinate. thanks for the answers.
 210 2013-04-07 01:26:50 <CodeShark> so CPU/disks?
 211 2013-04-07 01:26:59 <gmaxwell> ECDSA (substantially improved via caching) and BDB doing sync writes were the big ones.
 212 2013-04-07 01:27:53 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: now I expect that network layer stupidity (serial distribution, and not priortizing faster peers) are probably the biggest limits in the overall convergence speed.
 213 2013-04-07 01:28:09 <gmaxwell> ecdsa probably also matters, at least for blocks that have a lot of non-cached signatures.
 214 2013-04-07 01:29:34 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: someone was running a bit of really stupid python code that realyed everything with no validation at all, and blockchain.info was creating it with the creation of the majority of blocks. :P
 215 2013-04-07 01:29:45 <CodeShark> so the width is max number of hops * block validation time
 216 2013-04-07 01:30:09 <CodeShark> or (max number of hops - 1) * block validation time
 217 2013-04-07 01:30:53 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: well, thats kind of poorly defined. E.g. a node that isn't running yet might take weeks to hear about a block made now. :P
 218 2013-04-07 01:30:55 <CodeShark> plus the network layer stuff
 219 2013-04-07 01:31:09 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: for convergence the criteria of interest is the time until half of the hashrate has accepted your block... because of consolidation thats probably not bad even when the time to full distribution among active nodes is still taking a while.
 220 2013-04-07 01:31:17 <CodeShark> I'm only considering nodes that are synched up for this analysis
 221 2013-04-07 01:31:32 BCB has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
 222 2013-04-07 01:31:43 <gmaxwell> you can guestimate the time to reach hashrate by the amount of orphaning.
 223 2013-04-07 01:31:56 <CodeShark> orphaning in the satoshi sense? or in the blockchain.info sense? :p
 224 2013-04-07 01:32:19 <gmaxwell> Blocks which are created without becoming part of the longest chain.
 225 2013-04-07 01:32:33 <gmaxwell> if there was 0 latency it would virtually never happen.
 226 2013-04-07 01:32:35 <CodeShark> so the amount of branching
 227 2013-04-07 01:33:35 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: there are other potential reasons for not mining against the latest block than just not knowing about it :)
 228 2013-04-07 01:34:09 <gmaxwell> not really very good ones right now at least... subsidy is too high to bother trying to orphain people for fees except on very rare cases.
 229 2013-04-07 01:34:19 <gmaxwell> s/orphain/orphan/
 230 2013-04-07 01:34:46 <gmaxwell> I do think petertodd's nlocktime idea is really elegant wrt that.
 231 2013-04-07 01:36:32 <gmaxwell> (he proposes node produce transaction with a locktime set now or even slightly in the future so that there are fees you cannot collect if you stay back and try to reorg out a block)
 232 2013-04-07 01:37:27 manet has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 233 2013-04-07 01:38:04 <petertodd> Note though that there is currently a bug in CreateNewBlock() which means that nLockTime'd transactions don't get included in blocks until one block after they could be.
 234 2013-04-07 01:39:02 <gmaxwell> we had the same thing for maturing generated coin.
 235 2013-04-07 01:39:16 <gmaxwell> IIRC that was fixed.
 236 2013-04-07 01:39:20 <gmaxwell> (in 0.8)
 237 2013-04-07 01:39:36 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
 238 2013-04-07 01:39:54 <petertodd> Heh. I opened a pull-req, but I think I want to write more tests for nLockTime'd stuff before we mess with it.
 239 2013-04-07 01:39:59 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 240 2013-04-07 01:40:42 <gmaxwell> petertodd: we could still start locking things at one lower though.
 241 2013-04-07 01:41:07 <gmaxwell> this still has some benefit. Not as sexy as my checkpoints, ... but those need a softfork at least to implement.
 242 2013-04-07 01:41:36 <petertodd> gmaxwell: You mean one higher? For sure, although given that too has incompatibility issues that need testing, I'd be happy to leave both on the table for further testing.
 243 2013-04-07 01:42:02 <sipa> gmaxwell: updates
 244 2013-04-07 01:42:08 <sipa> *updated
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 249 2013-04-07 01:45:02 <gmaxwell> sipa: cool. pulling up to current.
 250 2013-04-07 01:45:31 blaeks has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 251 2013-04-07 01:45:54 <sipa> SetBestChain: new best=000000000000058dd3a452903c033aa8658d194a2094c600c6f36ca8ed8a6d79  height=196895  work=68.633851  tx=6664776  date=2012-09-02 18:19:10
 252 2013-04-07 01:46:46 <CodeShark> hmm, problem is multiple definitions of "work"
 253 2013-04-07 01:46:50 <CodeShark> perhaps log_work
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 279 2013-04-07 02:15:56 <bwen> is there a place where I can see what will be included in 0.9? 0MQ in there? :p
 280 2013-04-07 02:16:09 <gmaxwell> sipa: hmph: 2013-04-07 01:45:33 SetBestChain: new best=0000000000000100069a4e364a22cea9e5973c9bb9b2589070831409805cc185  height=230047  work=69.713148  tx=15660701  date=2013-04-07 01:23:43 progress=0.999786ProcessBlock: ACCEPTED
 281 2013-04-07 02:16:23 <sipa> did i nuke a \n ?
 282 2013-04-07 02:16:28 <gmaxwell> looks like a missing \n..
 283 2013-04-07 02:16:29 <gmaxwell> yea.
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 287 2013-04-07 02:19:09 <Luke-Jr> bwen: unlikely without someone writing the code (and I'd resist anything non-optional)
 288 2013-04-07 02:19:27 <bwen> there is already a pull request for it I think
 289 2013-04-07 02:19:34 <sipa> bwen: there are only rough plans for future versions... basically just what is ready
 290 2013-04-07 02:19:42 <bwen> aight
 291 2013-04-07 02:19:42 <sipa> bwen, Luke-Jr: indeed there is
 292 2013-04-07 02:19:49 coolfengyu has joined
 293 2013-04-07 02:19:55 <sipa> gmaxwell: updated
 294 2013-04-07 02:20:27 <Luke-Jr> oh, I'm behind!
 295 2013-04-07 02:22:44 <Luke-Jr> I hope i get a break from bugs soon so I can redo next-test
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 370 2013-04-07 03:49:22 <Kinnard> Is it usually quiet around this time?
 371 2013-04-07 03:49:32 <lianj> yes
 372 2013-04-07 03:50:32 <digitalmagus> *shhhh*
 373 2013-04-07 03:50:56 <Phraust> they are feeding.
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 375 2013-04-07 03:51:55 * digitalmagus Om nom,nom,nom
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 377 2013-04-07 03:52:33 <realazthat> rofl
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 384 2013-04-07 04:05:27 <azizLIGHTS> when you run bitcoin-qt and its uploading maximum speed, does anyone else get Error 15 (net::ERR_SOCKET_NOT_CONNECTED) errors on Google chrome, on https sites, even simple google searches fail with bitcoin-qt running. the problem stops after i quit bitcoin-qt
 385 2013-04-07 04:07:59 <gmaxwell> sounds like a you have a broken router. Bummer.
 386 2013-04-07 04:08:44 ColinT has joined
 387 2013-04-07 04:09:06 <azizLIGHTS> so far its only happening on https://google.com and mainly affecting my google searches
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 392 2013-04-07 04:20:53 <Diablo-D3> azizLIGHTS: your router is pretty shitty
 393 2013-04-07 04:21:05 <Diablo-D3> does it happen when you torrent on a populated torrent too?
 394 2013-04-07 04:21:11 <Diablo-D3> (like, connected to >100 peers)
 395 2013-04-07 04:21:24 <azizLIGHTS> not sure... havent paid attention to that
 396 2013-04-07 04:21:25 PixelCrumbs has joined
 397 2013-04-07 04:21:34 <Diablo-D3> find out
 398 2013-04-07 04:21:40 <azizLIGHTS> what is it about my router
 399 2013-04-07 04:21:47 <Diablo-D3> limited connection table size
 400 2013-04-07 04:22:02 <Diablo-D3> the fix is to either quit using shitty routers or install openwrt/ddwrt on them
 401 2013-04-07 04:22:28 <lianj> or decrease bitcoin-qts connections
 402 2013-04-07 04:22:39 * Luke-Jr peers. I say "I hate Google" in here and suddenly Google is trying to hire me again -.-
 403 2013-04-07 04:22:56 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: dude, they've repeatedly tried to hire nenolod
 404 2013-04-07 04:22:58 <Diablo-D3> its hilarious
 405 2013-04-07 04:23:10 <Luke-Jr> nenolod?
 406 2013-04-07 04:23:27 rs0 has joined
 407 2013-04-07 04:23:34 <Diablo-D3> famous programmer guy
 408 2013-04-07 04:23:41 <Diablo-D3> wrote the ircd you're connected to atm
 409 2013-04-07 04:23:46 <Diablo-D3> wrote audacious
 410 2013-04-07 04:23:51 <Diablo-D3> invented modern cloud computing
 411 2013-04-07 04:24:00 <Diablo-D3> runs his own linux distro
 412 2013-04-07 04:24:09 <Diablo-D3> was a multi-millionare at one point
 413 2013-04-07 04:24:26 <lianj> no wonder he got no time for google
 414 2013-04-07 04:24:32 <Diablo-D3> Luke-Jr: anyhow, the point is, he keeps turning them down
 415 2013-04-07 04:24:42 <Diablo-D3> and they keep asking and asking
 416 2013-04-07 04:24:48 <Diablo-D3> and its hilarious
 417 2013-04-07 04:25:06 <Luke-Jr> I just thought it was a funny coincidence the timing with me ranting on them in here XD
 418 2013-04-07 04:25:08 <Diablo-D3> he hates the corporate culture at google
 419 2013-04-07 04:25:18 tommygunner has joined
 420 2013-04-07 04:25:23 <tommygunner> evening
 421 2013-04-07 04:25:27 <Luke-Jr> I hate the fact that I can't visit any Google website anymore, without loading up bloatware browsers
 422 2013-04-07 04:25:30 <tommygunner> whats up with 0.8.1 qt
 423 2013-04-07 04:25:38 <tommygunner> cant keep a blockchain to save its life
 424 2013-04-07 04:25:44 <tommygunner> corrupt corrupt corrupt
 425 2013-04-07 04:27:03 <tommygunner> http://pastebin.com/79A4zYXD
 426 2013-04-07 04:28:32 <tommygunner> same thing happened maybe a week or two ago
 427 2013-04-07 04:28:48 <tommygunner> with a grandfathered-in blockchain
 428 2013-04-07 04:28:48 PrinceCortex has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 429 2013-04-07 04:28:55 <tommygunner> re-did it then and now its happening again
 430 2013-04-07 04:29:07 <tommygunner> (OS X 10.8.3)
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 433 2013-04-07 04:32:39 <realazthat> sipa: ping?
 434 2013-04-07 04:32:47 <realazthat> sipa: you mentioned gettxout
 435 2013-04-07 04:32:52 <realazthat> any docs on that?
 436 2013-04-07 04:33:30 Detritus has joined
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 438 2013-04-07 04:36:51 coolfengyu has joined
 439 2013-04-07 04:37:29 <Eneerge> anyone know of any cool open projects to get involved with?
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 443 2013-04-07 04:44:40 <Luke-Jr> Eneerge: what kind?
 444 2013-04-07 04:45:14 <gmaxwell> realazthat: bitcoind help gettxout
 445 2013-04-07 04:45:32 <realazthat> gmaxwell: ah ty
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 503 2013-04-07 05:52:29 <peawormsworth> someone has sent bitcoin to an ltc wallet. Would anyone like to help with this?
 504 2013-04-07 05:53:02 Guest53479 has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
 505 2013-04-07 05:56:21 <phantomcircuit> is that even possible
 506 2013-04-07 05:56:24 <peawormsworth> "sohcpunk" said he moved 45 BTC to an LTC address. He is wondering if there is any way to get it back. He is in the #bitcoin-tech channel now.
 507 2013-04-07 05:56:27 <peawormsworth> I dont know.
 508 2013-04-07 05:56:46 <phantomcircuit> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Litecoin#Different_Addresses
 509 2013-04-07 05:57:25 <Diablo-D3> peawormsworth: wtf, thats impossible
 510 2013-04-07 05:57:39 <Diablo-D3> ltc uses a different magic number
 511 2013-04-07 05:57:53 <Diablo-D3> at least I thought it did
 512 2013-04-07 05:57:55 <warren> Perhaps some alt client fails to reject the prefix?
 513 2013-04-07 05:58:10 <Diablo-D3> well, you cant send it to another wallet, thats nonsensical
 514 2013-04-07 05:58:20 <Diablo-D3> it sounds like he sent it to an address that is valid in bitcoin but no one has a private key for
 515 2013-04-07 05:58:23 <Diablo-D3> ergo, they're lost forever
 516 2013-04-07 05:58:53 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 517 2013-04-07 05:59:07 <peawormsworth> Diablo-D3: would it be possible to extract the private key from an ltc wallet and import it into a btc client wallet ?
 518 2013-04-07 06:00:05 <Diablo-D3> peawormsworth: sure, try it
 519 2013-04-07 06:00:23 <Diablo-D3> do LTC addresses start with 1?
 520 2013-04-07 06:00:28 <Diablo-D3> because if they do, LTC is broken
 521 2013-04-07 06:00:49 Kinnard has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 522 2013-04-07 06:01:40 <warren> Diablo-D3: L
 523 2013-04-07 06:01:57 <warren> there are a few alts that begin with "1"
 524 2013-04-07 06:02:07 <gmaxwell> peawormsworth: what software did this person use?
 525 2013-04-07 06:02:08 <Diablo-D3> L would have never been valid as a bitcoin address
 526 2013-04-07 06:02:13 <Diablo-D3> 1 would have been POSSIBLY
 527 2013-04-07 06:02:44 <gmaxwell> peawormsworth: and does he know the transaction ID?
 528 2013-04-07 06:02:57 <peawormsworth> he is talking on the #bitcoin-tech channel. He said it was sent thru btc-e
 529 2013-04-07 06:03:22 <gmaxwell> peawormsworth: it's probably still in btc-e.
 530 2013-04-07 06:03:34 <gmaxwell> "bugs in btce software? unheard of!"
 531 2013-04-07 06:03:37 <Diablo-D3> yeah what gmaxwell said
 532 2013-04-07 06:03:49 <peawormsworth> I encourage u to go to #bitcoin-tech if ur interested. I was just rying to get him some professional help.
 533 2013-04-07 06:04:17 <peawormsworth> that sounds correct. btc-e probably has it and will return it.
 534 2013-04-07 06:04:37 <ThomasV> or they sent to a black hole
 535 2013-04-07 06:05:25 <phantomcircuit> peawormsworth, what's the address?
 536 2013-04-07 06:06:10 <doublec> he needs to find the owner of that ltc address. get them to export the private key from litecoin, import it into bitcoin and send the funds to him.
 537 2013-04-07 06:06:17 <doublec> btce doesn't validate addresses
 538 2013-04-07 06:06:28 <warren> btc-e should at least be able to supply a tx.  If they can't, they didn't send it.
 539 2013-04-07 06:06:34 <phantomcircuit> what version number is litecoin using?
 540 2013-04-07 06:06:46 <doublec> this has sadly happened numerous times to my litecoin exchange
 541 2013-04-07 06:07:05 Guest67047 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 542 2013-04-07 06:07:08 <warren> doublec: huh?  how do people send a "1" to "L" and vice versa?
 543 2013-04-07 06:07:25 <doublec> warren: there's an equivalent bitcoin address it maps to
 544 2013-04-07 06:07:32 <peawormsworth>  LMk7wcGbX5MEgubyCA7LD8t62x7aVbgzci
 545 2013-04-07 06:07:42 <warren> doublec: sending clients don't reject it?
 546 2013-04-07 06:07:44 <doublec> old versions of namecoind did the same. You could happily send namecoins to bitcoin addresses because it didn't check
 547 2013-04-07 06:07:50 <doublec> warren: apparently btce doesn't
 548 2013-04-07 06:07:54 <warren> wow
 549 2013-04-07 06:07:57 <peawormsworth> but once again... i am a middle man here. I invite any interested discussion to #bitcoin-tech... where he is talking about it.
 550 2013-04-07 06:08:29 <phantomcircuit>         PUBKEY_ADDRESS = 48, // Litecoin addresses start with L
 551 2013-04-07 06:08:31 <peawormsworth> You guys are great. but i didnt want to pollute the dev channel with one issue.
 552 2013-04-07 06:08:34 phish- has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 553 2013-04-07 06:09:03 <phantomcircuit> so a normal litecoin address wouldn't be valid in bitcoinqt
 554 2013-04-07 06:10:16 <phantomcircuit> doublec, except he said it was btc to an address ltc not the other way around
 555 2013-04-07 06:10:25 ratchetoverflow has joined
 556 2013-04-07 06:10:30 <phantomcircuit> doublec, i could see sending ltc to a btc address, but the other way around should be impossible
 557 2013-04-07 06:10:45 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: well if they have 1 addresses
 558 2013-04-07 06:10:48 <Diablo-D3> and it uses the same format
 559 2013-04-07 06:10:49 <Diablo-D3> I can see it
 560 2013-04-07 06:11:07 <Diablo-D3> this is why there are different magic numbers on addresses
 561 2013-04-07 06:11:07 <phantomcircuit> they shouldn't since those aren't valid in litecoin
 562 2013-04-07 06:11:08 <Diablo-D3> to prevent that
 563 2013-04-07 06:11:28 <Diablo-D3> [01:39:55] <warren> there are a few alts that begin with "1"
 564 2013-04-07 06:11:36 <warren> Diablo-D3: yes =(
 565 2013-04-07 06:12:18 <phantomcircuit> https://github.com/litecoin-project/litecoin/blob/master/src/base58.h#L275
 566 2013-04-07 06:12:22 <phantomcircuit> oh
 567 2013-04-07 06:12:27 <phantomcircuit> well
 568 2013-04-07 06:12:33 <phantomcircuit> litecoin isn't one of them though
 569 2013-04-07 06:12:47 <phantomcircuit> except SCRIPT_ADDRESS is the same in litecoin and bitcoin
 570 2013-04-07 06:12:49 <phantomcircuit> which is broken
 571 2013-04-07 06:13:24 <phantomcircuit> either way it should be impossible to send bitcoins to a litecoin address
 572 2013-04-07 06:14:08 <phantomcircuit> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/base58.h#L270
 573 2013-04-07 06:14:15 <Diablo-D3> phantomcircuit: I agree it should be impossible
 574 2013-04-07 06:14:18 <phantomcircuit> see IsValid
 575 2013-04-07 06:14:33 <phantomcircuit> so you'd have to send the bitcoins from a ridiculously broken client
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 579 2013-04-07 06:17:35 <peawormsworth> phantomcircuit: he was sending from btc-e to an address provided by btc-e (internally). I expect btc-e will probably have to sort this out... if the transfer was actually an internal book change.
 580 2013-04-07 06:17:56 <Diablo-D3> yeah
 581 2013-04-07 06:18:00 <peawormsworth> I hope that makes sense... i dont know how btc-e operates at all.
 582 2013-04-07 06:18:00 <Diablo-D3> if thats true
 583 2013-04-07 06:18:04 <Diablo-D3> its just something they fucked up
 584 2013-04-07 06:18:13 <Diablo-D3> he should try sending ltc to an internal btc address
 585 2013-04-07 06:18:16 <realazthat> gmaxwell: gettxout returns nothing for me though; do I need a setting turned on?
 586 2013-04-07 06:18:18 <Diablo-D3> and then cash out ;)
 587 2013-04-07 06:18:33 <peawormsworth> ha
 588 2013-04-07 06:19:23 <gmaxwell> realazthat: bitcoind gettxout 2accb7d1d1bb44f4b4f44f23e823433503a414e4aab86a4e01aa04cb3109dce3 1
 589 2013-04-07 06:19:53 <realazthat> ah got something
 590 2013-04-07 06:20:01 <gmaxwell> realazthat: gettxout only returns on .. things in the unspent output set.. so they've got to be unspent.
 591 2013-04-07 06:20:29 <realazthat> aha
 592 2013-04-07 06:20:38 <realazthat> I tried a few, I figured one of them would be unspent
 593 2013-04-07 06:22:07 <realazthat> gmaxwell: if two outputs have the same address though; this would only get one of them right?
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 595 2013-04-07 06:22:31 <realazthat> same address/challenge
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 597 2013-04-07 06:23:20 <gmaxwell> realazthat: huh? this returns a single output exactly, indexed by its txid and output index.
 598 2013-04-07 06:23:30 <realazthat> yeah ok, I thought so
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 600 2013-04-07 06:23:32 <gmaxwell> it's not a lookup by address, we don't have one of those (yet)
 601 2013-04-07 06:25:03 <realazthat> kk ty for your tmie
 602 2013-04-07 06:25:08 <realazthat> time*
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 605 2013-04-07 06:32:14 <gmaxwell> sipa: any idea why valgrind says all the ECKEY objects aren't getting freeed after a stop? http://pastebin.com/DTHQ2FAk
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 608 2013-04-07 06:40:34 <realazthat> gmaxwell: do you prefer to additionally have the btc amounts aligned at the decimal?
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 610 2013-04-07 06:42:37 <gmaxwell> I think thats useful.
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 617 2013-04-07 07:02:50 <setkeh> does any one here know how to use curl to grab the json from the BTC-E API iknow https://btc-e.com/tapi/ i just dont knowhow toput the secret and the api onto it
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 624 2013-04-07 07:16:25 <rmwb> does somebody have to intervene to increase hashing difficulty or is it automatically determined by the software monitoring new block frequency?
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 627 2013-04-07 07:18:29 <realazthat> automatic
 628 2013-04-07 07:18:42 <Perlboy> So before 0.8 bitcoind was berkeleydb
 629 2013-04-07 07:19:03 <Perlboy> now since 0.8 it's leveldb?
 630 2013-04-07 07:19:05 <Perlboy> is that right?
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 633 2013-04-07 07:20:28 <rmwb> cheers, realz
 634 2013-04-07 07:20:37 <gmaxwell> rmwb: it's automatically set by the network, this is very fundimental to how bitcoin works. :)
 635 2013-04-07 07:21:20 <gmaxwell> Perlboy: for the blockchain indexes, the wallet still uses BDB.  0.8 fundimentally rewrote how the databases are handled, it's not just replacing one database layer for another.
 636 2013-04-07 07:21:33 <rmwb> I should read Satoshi's paper that is sitting on the desk beside me, shouldn't I...
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 638 2013-04-07 07:21:53 <Perlboy> gmaxwell, i guess my main question is, can I still use berkeleydb to setup 'watchers' on addresses?
 639 2013-04-07 07:22:15 <gmaxwell> Perlboy: huh??!
 640 2013-04-07 07:23:06 <Perlboy> gmaxwell, if I want to setup offline wallets but maintain their transaction history using a hot wallet/live bitcoind
 641 2013-04-07 07:23:23 <Perlboy> (which bitcoin armory has implemented but i'm trying to avoid that as a dependency)
 642 2013-04-07 07:23:31 <Perlboy> what's the easiest way to do it?
 643 2013-04-07 07:23:34 <Perlboy> well actually
 644 2013-04-07 07:23:47 <Perlboy> what's 'the way' to do it using only what bitcoind gives me
 645 2013-04-07 07:25:24 <gmaxwell> Perlboy: easiest way to do that is to encrypt the wallet on the offline machine, then take the encrypted wallet to the online machine and _never decrypt it online_
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 647 2013-04-07 07:25:37 <Perlboy> gmaxwell, i'm not talking about spending.
 648 2013-04-07 07:25:43 <Perlboy> i'm talking about monitoring receives to it.
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 650 2013-04-07 07:26:16 <gmaxwell> sure.
 651 2013-04-07 07:26:36 <Perlboy> pre 0.8 i could have just used the various scripts on github that allowed for exporting the transaction db and monitoring that.
 652 2013-04-07 07:26:42 <gmaxwell> and as I said— put a copy of it online but encrypted, then you can montor recieves to it.
 653 2013-04-07 07:26:46 <Perlboy> but now.. not sure about their compatibility.
 654 2013-04-07 07:27:00 <Perlboy> gmaxwell, that doesn't help me if I have 50 wallets to monitor :)
 655 2013-04-07 07:27:08 <Perlboy> and yes, 50 unique keys.
 656 2013-04-07 07:27:13 <Perlboy> not 50 addresses 1 wallet.
 657 2013-04-07 07:27:14 <gmaxwell> Perlboy: "exporting the transaction db" huh? I don't know what you're talking about there.
 658 2013-04-07 07:27:42 <Perlboy> https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcointools#readme
 659 2013-04-07 07:27:45 <gmaxwell> if you want you can just copy over the blockchain. thats not any different, but ... perhaps it would help if you link to the tools you're already using.
 660 2013-04-07 07:27:54 <Perlboy> essentially that. without the obsolesence :)
 661 2013-04-07 07:28:00 <gmaxwell> and what were you doing with that?
 662 2013-04-07 07:28:19 <Perlboy> Print out all blocks involving transactions to the Bitcoin Faucet:
 663 2013-04-07 07:28:19 <Perlboy>   dbdump.py --search-blocks=15VjRaDX9zpbA8LVnbrCAFzrVzN7ixHNsC
 664 2013-04-07 07:28:24 <Perlboy> essentially. that.
 665 2013-04-07 07:28:31 <Perlboy> listing all transactions for a specific address.
 666 2013-04-07 07:28:57 <gmaxwell> ah. hm. since that should just read the block files it may work even on the new stuff the block files are not in a database. I haven't tried.
 667 2013-04-07 07:29:14 <gmaxwell> Though thats not really a secure way to see activity, since IIRC it will tell you about transactions which are in dead forks.
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 670 2013-04-07 07:33:48 <Perlboy> gmaxwell, so what would be the 'secure way' ?
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 672 2013-04-07 07:37:18 <Insu> hmm trc gave me a idea
 673 2013-04-07 07:37:24 * Insu runs off with some gassoil in search of asicminer's farm  
 674 2013-04-07 07:39:06 <gmaxwell> sipa: ::sigh:: 2479  I'm super glad someone is actually writing bandwidth management code instead of just complaining. Super not glad that it appears to work by dos attacking the network (it looks like it just stops relaying you blocks when it reaches its limit) ... and sad that the "ibd logic must be fixed first" comments were ignored.
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 679 2013-04-07 07:45:00 <K1773R> gmaxwell: i hope this will be implemented
 680 2013-04-07 07:45:42 <gmaxwell> K1773R: because you want bitcoin to fall over and stop working for people?
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 682 2013-04-07 07:46:21 <Perlboy> gmaxwell, so, reading block chain as berkeley db should be possible
 683 2013-04-07 07:46:24 <K1773R> no, should be tested first of course. its a long request feature for a long active issue
 684 2013-04-07 07:46:28 <gmaxwell> If you want to reduce your bandwidth usage, just set listen=0 and this will remove most of it without presenting any hazard to the network.
 685 2013-04-07 07:46:31 <Perlboy> and there isn't a lot of alternatives?
 686 2013-04-07 07:46:54 <gmaxwell> Perlboy: the blockchain itself isn't a BDB and has never been one.
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 688 2013-04-07 07:47:42 <Perlboy> i was referencing this: https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcointools#readme
 689 2013-04-07 07:47:57 <Perlboy> which while i haven't read his code appears to read bdb's?
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 694 2013-04-07 07:56:46 <lobhater> hello all
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 770 2013-04-07 10:07:59 <realazthat> Perlboy: you can iterate the blockchain using bitcoind
 771 2013-04-07 10:08:04 <realazthat> the RPC api
 772 2013-04-07 10:08:10 <realazthat> and do w/e you want with the results
 773 2013-04-07 10:08:38 <realazthat> however, I am not sure how you'd handle it if bitcoin decided to switch at a fork
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 775 2013-04-07 10:09:10 <realazthat> if you just want to do this once,
 776 2013-04-07 10:09:18 <realazthat> you can get your results, though it would take some time
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 781 2013-04-07 10:12:38 <jrmithdobbs> realazthat: load the chain on a disconnected node and then query it
 782 2013-04-07 10:12:40 <jrmithdobbs> basically
 783 2013-04-07 10:12:46 <Belxjander> Maybe a dumb question.... would it be valid to run an exchange using a localized blockchain?
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 786 2013-04-07 10:13:14 <Belxjander> Maybe a dumb question.... would it be valid to run an exchange using a localized blockchain?
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 789 2013-04-07 10:14:04 <jrmithdobbs> if you mean a merge mined chain to publicly log and verify the exchanges' action in some way
 790 2013-04-07 10:14:13 <jrmithdobbs> no it's not stupid, but it's not overly simple either
 791 2013-04-07 10:16:19 <Belxjander> I was more thinking they exchange itself running an internal blockchain with minor modifications and only pushing bulk purchase/sale orders to the master blockchain of bitcoin...
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 793 2013-04-07 10:17:58 <Belxjander> That would allow the minor? Changes needed for account details to run always to a fixed decimal place with any overspill reverting to a slushing fund as exchange fee
 794 2013-04-07 10:18:11 <tcatm> What's the point of an internal blockchain?
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 797 2013-04-07 10:20:15 <Belxjander> To handle internal user acct transactions and allow for relocation of overspill after 8 decimal places to the slush acct
 798 2013-04-07 10:20:27 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: you just use a database for that. :P
 799 2013-04-07 10:20:45 <jrmithdobbs> ya you don't gain much
 800 2013-04-07 10:20:45 <gmaxwell> tcatm: though there are interesting things you can do in this space, e.g. you could prove an exchange wasn't fractional reserve.
 801 2013-04-07 10:20:58 <jrmithdobbs> ya that's what I thought he was going for
 802 2013-04-07 10:21:21 <Belxjander> Gmaxwell: more wanting the anti-hacking properties of the blockchain
 803 2013-04-07 10:21:37 <jrmithdobbs> then you don't understand how/why it works
 804 2013-04-07 10:21:40 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: blockchains are not magic. :P
 805 2013-04-07 10:21:48 <tcatm> gmaxwell: Wouldn't signatures suffice for that (with some external signed time source or something)?
 806 2013-04-07 10:22:28 <gmaxwell> tcatm: no, you can just lie lie lie.  "I have 100 in balances, and here is proof that I hold 100 in bitcoins" (but really you have 10000 in balances)
 807 2013-04-07 10:22:31 <Belxjander> Jrmithdobbs definitely don't understand it beyond an emotional level
 808 2013-04-07 10:22:36 <gmaxwell> tcatm: What you do is arrange all customer's balances in a merkle tree where every node also as the sum of its child balances. Then you publish the hash root with the sum very publically.
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 810 2013-04-07 10:22:57 <jrmithdobbs> Belxjander: what does that even mean
 811 2013-04-07 10:22:59 <gmaxwell> tcatm: then when someone logs in you give them the fragment that allows them to prove their balance is in the public hash root.
 812 2013-04-07 10:23:05 <jrmithdobbs> how do you understand math on an emotional level
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 816 2013-04-07 10:23:35 <gmaxwell> tcatm: and then you do signmessages on the bitcoins held to show they match your balances. tada.
 817 2013-04-07 10:23:41 <tcatm> gmaxwell: Ah that would work, but it's still not a block chain.
 818 2013-04-07 10:24:17 <Belxjander> Jrmithdobbs I only have an approximate feeling of how thish works despite not grokking the concept with inyellectual understanding
 819 2013-04-07 10:24:20 <gmaxwell> tcatm: you can do this with a blockchain too, at least one that hash the utxo set in a commited sum-merkle tree.. but .. why, the rest would be pointless. :)
 820 2013-04-07 10:24:39 <jrmithdobbs> tcatm: you store the progression in a chain that's merge mined is how a blockchain could be utilized
 821 2013-04-07 10:24:56 <gmaxwell> tcatm: I was responding to the thing I thought Belxjander wanted to accomplish, not the mechenism which seemed obviously wrongheaded to me. :P
 822 2013-04-07 10:25:02 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i don't know that it'd be entirely useless
 823 2013-04-07 10:25:22 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: variations could be used for a p2market, for instance
 824 2013-04-07 10:25:40 <jrmithdobbs> (you need a bit more, obviously)
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 826 2013-04-07 10:26:12 <Belxjander> Gmaxwell a second blockchain for a distributed "exchange" service buffering the master blockchain from day-to-day transactions
 827 2013-04-07 10:26:43 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: blockchains are a pretty inefficient way to track transactions... I'm not sure why'd you'd invoke one where it isn't really needed.
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 829 2013-04-07 10:27:10 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: if you have to trust the exchange service to hold the non-digital assets and remove counterparty risk, then why not also trust them to do the other recordkeeping required?
 830 2013-04-07 10:27:22 <Belxjander> Gmaxwell sometimes the efficient way is not optimal
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 835 2013-04-07 10:28:43 <Belxjander> Gmaxwell working on the assumption standard security is breached
 836 2013-04-07 10:28:45 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: I did say "why not" for a reason there. ... like ... if you're going to suggest someone do something inefficient there ought to be a good reason. :P
 837 2013-04-07 10:29:00 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: blockchains don't create security themselves.
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 839 2013-04-07 10:29:55 <jrmithdobbs> Belxjander: i think what you're misunderstanding why the bitcoin blockchain works for bitcoin
 840 2013-04-07 10:30:22 <realazthat> what you really need is 30 oompa loompas ferrying bitcoins to and from the blockchain :P
 841 2013-04-07 10:30:23 <jrmithdobbs> Belxjander: you just want an internal ledger with authenticated communications, you gain nothing using a blockchain for that scenario
 842 2013-04-07 10:30:27 <Belxjander> Gmaxwell I know I'm a blockhead about this which is why I asked here...
 843 2013-04-07 10:30:38 <jrmithdobbs> in fact, you probably end up with something less secure than doing it any other way
 844 2013-04-07 10:30:54 <jrmithdobbs> (in most cases)
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 860 2013-04-07 10:35:22 <Belxjander> Sorry about bouncing...
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 863 2013-04-07 10:38:56 <Belxjander> I was thinking of the master international blockchain and having a local blockchain system with seperation of purpose and only seperating the services using a volunteer member directory for the localized service
 864 2013-04-07 10:40:27 <Belxjander> Distribute out the local service to participants as well as internal network
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 884 2013-04-07 11:03:37 <andkore> hmm, is there no channel for dev involving bitcoin, but not bitcoin development itself?
 885 2013-04-07 11:04:15 <andkore> the level of discourse in #bitcoin is... not high "<pZombie> throughout history those behind the global banking mafia have used many as tools. Their strategy is to make certain groups think they are special and separate them from others by subjecting groups to isms which are contradicting and conflicting. Divide and conquer"
 886 2013-04-07 11:05:44 <muhoo> andkore: generally, discussions involving development of bitcoin seem to happen here
 887 2013-04-07 11:06:48 <muhoo> andkore: and there's another channel somewhere that the blue-sky, more far-reaching, less mundane, more speculative dev discussions happen on
 888 2013-04-07 11:07:32 <andkore> muhoo: lol. confusing, but ok
 889 2013-04-07 11:08:10 <muhoo> andkore: don't worry. just ask what you have to ask.
 890 2013-04-07 11:08:28 <muhoo> if you get an answer, or discussion, fine. if it's OT, someone will ding you and tell you where to take the discussion.
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 892 2013-04-07 11:09:11 <KOLANICH> hi all
 893 2013-04-07 11:09:30 <andkore> ok. are there currently any payment services set up that people can use to buy things without manually making a transfer from their wallet?
 894 2013-04-07 11:09:52 <andkore> like they put money there and then merchants using the service can receive money
 895 2013-04-07 11:09:57 <KOLANICH> i think it is secure to store not all transaction history
 896 2013-04-07 11:09:59 <andkore> I'm kind of out of the loop
 897 2013-04-07 11:10:32 <KOLANICH> but only the most recent part of it
 898 2013-04-07 11:11:43 <KOLANICH> a sends money to b
 899 2013-04-07 11:11:44 <KOLANICH> b - to c
 900 2013-04-07 11:11:46 <KOLANICH> so we dont need to store a to b transaction
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 908 2013-04-07 11:16:46 <sipa> gmaxwell: strange, i wonder why that didn't happen for me; afaik valgribd reports 0 bytes lost for me
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 914 2013-04-07 11:20:44 <wumpus> <andkore> hmm, is there no channel for dev involving bitcoin, but not bitcoin development itself?  <- not that I know of, may be a good idea
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 916 2013-04-07 11:21:24 <wumpus> this channel is focused mainly on bitcoin *client* dev, not so much the ecosystem around it
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 918 2013-04-07 11:21:45 <andkore> yeah that's what I figured
 919 2013-04-07 11:21:54 <andkore> bitcoin is just a shithole
 920 2013-04-07 11:21:58 <andkore> and a noisy one
 921 2013-04-07 11:22:02 <andkore> #bitcoin*
 922 2013-04-07 11:22:11 <wumpus> yes, it is, but it keeps the trolls out of here I think that's the point :)
 923 2013-04-07 11:22:30 <andkore> lol
 924 2013-04-07 11:22:52 <sipa> apart from some occasional spam, we've been quite lucky regarding trolling here :)
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 926 2013-04-07 11:23:16 <wumpus> indeed
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 929 2013-04-07 11:25:40 <iwilcox> andkore: #bitcoin-tech
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 931 2013-04-07 11:26:11 <andkore> iwilcox: thanks
 932 2013-04-07 11:26:22 <andkore> 'friendlier than #bitcoin' is an encouraging promise
 933 2013-04-07 11:26:23 <andkore> lol
 934 2013-04-07 11:26:29 <iwilcox> At least, that's the idea there.  Less spam for here, less noise than #bitcoin.
 935 2013-04-07 11:27:55 <iwilcox> I'd like it to have the blessing of #bitcoin-dev folk though; midnightmagic didn't seem to keen on the idea of another channel
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 937 2013-04-07 11:28:33 <Insu> 3 programmers in a row that declined, no one wants to work with this code base :(
 938 2013-04-07 11:28:48 <iwilcox> I just feel many technical-but-not-client-dev things would get in the way here.  This channel is pretty low-level and businesslike.
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 940 2013-04-07 11:30:32 <sipa> i don't mind having the "how do i integrate bitcoin in my l33t php site??!?" questions elsewhere, if that is what you mean :)
 941 2013-04-07 11:31:33 <wumpus> yes, if this channel extended to that scope it's going to be much too busy
 942 2013-04-07 11:31:50 <iwilcox> Well, yeah, API stuff like that.  As MM said, #bitcoin can often be a "cesspool" of religious/political debates.  1300 nicks.
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 944 2013-04-07 11:32:46 <andkore> sipa: too close to home...
 945 2013-04-07 11:32:52 <wumpus> on the other hand API integration is very important, so it has to have a place
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 947 2013-04-07 11:33:30 <wumpus> and #bitcoin is not that place, it's the go-to place for hypers and bashers, not for people really trying to make something
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 950 2013-04-07 11:33:50 <andkore> yeah, exactly. I'll check out bitcoin-tech
 951 2013-04-07 11:33:52 <wumpus> so agree with the #bitcoin-tech idea
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 954 2013-04-07 11:37:51 <iwilcox> Straying off-topic now but I'd really prefer a #bitcoin-newbies or similar to be people's first port of call.  #bitcoin is embarrassing for the community at times.
 955 2013-04-07 11:41:36 <wumpus> good luck with that, but people are really going to join #bitcoin first as it's the most straightforward, creating a channel is more of a psychological and marketing thing than technical, and I think every newbie channel will change into #bitcoin, unless you find some ops that are seriously into providing organized tech support
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 957 2013-04-07 11:42:45 <sipa> and withstand the shitstorm rhat breaks lose if they decide to +m the channel
 958 2013-04-07 11:42:51 <wumpus> (and very strict in kicking out people goofing off into arguments)
 959 2013-04-07 11:43:31 <wumpus> heh
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 971 2013-04-07 11:58:26 <Scrat> +1 #bitcoin-tech, a great deal of questions here are integration related
 972 2013-04-07 11:58:31 <Scrat> which is kinda offtopic
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 974 2013-04-07 12:00:01 <wumpus> yep, the challenge will be getting people there, it's currently kind of small, so let's start refering people with integration questions there
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 979 2013-04-07 12:06:17 <gmaxwell> I do worry that bitcoin will become even more of a cesspool if more gets moved out of it.
 980 2013-04-07 12:07:44 <wumpus> that's true, but I don't think there is solution for that, there is demand for a cesspool so it is always moving somewhre
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 984 2013-04-07 12:10:50 <diki> Are compressed public keys preferred in order to reduce blockchain size?
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 989 2013-04-07 12:14:04 <sipa> diki: indeed
 990 2013-04-07 12:14:21 <diki> does it require more computational power to compute them?
 991 2013-04-07 12:14:47 <wumpus> only to uncompress them afaik
 992 2013-04-07 12:14:56 <wumpus> you need to derive the y coordinate again
 993 2013-04-07 12:15:02 <Scrat> arent all transactions currently on the network besides SD using compressed keys?
 994 2013-04-07 12:15:33 <sipa> compressing is trivial
 995 2013-04-07 12:15:54 <sipa> you need to decompress before signature validation, though
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 997 2013-04-07 12:16:37 <sipa> wumpus: plan is for a 0.8.2 based on current head, before we do the larger wallet changes in 0.9
 998 2013-04-07 12:16:52 <sipa> well, that's my understanding at least
 999 2013-04-07 12:18:16 <wumpus> huh?!
1000 2013-04-07 12:18:37 <wumpus> why call it 0.8.2 then?
1001 2013-04-07 12:19:01 <sipa> why not?
1002 2013-04-07 12:19:19 <wumpus> right, ok...
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1004 2013-04-07 12:19:54 <sipa> gmaxwell: i don't understand how it's possible that EC_KEY_free is not called...
1005 2013-04-07 12:21:21 <sipa> wumpus: i think the wallet improvements (multiwallet, watch-only, coin control, maybe deterministic, ...) are a nice target for 0.9, but current head has improvements enough for an own release despite that
1006 2013-04-07 12:22:08 <wumpus> yes I suppose that'd be possible, but then I'll delay the qt5 pull until then
1007 2013-04-07 12:22:10 <Scrat> sipa: care to list current head improvements?
1008 2013-04-07 12:22:20 <wumpus> I really think we should discuss release policies etc on the mailing list, so everyone is up to date
1009 2013-04-07 12:22:31 <sipa> yeah, agree
1010 2013-04-07 12:22:48 <sipa> i'll send a mail
1011 2013-04-07 12:23:03 <wumpus> for example, I pulled CodeShark's gui refactor for multiple wallets, which I wouldn't have done if I knew another 0.8.x was about to be spun off
1012 2013-04-07 12:23:58 <CodeShark> oh, speaking of which, were you able to solve those issues, wumpus? I've been so incredibly busy this week - I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to look
1013 2013-04-07 12:24:00 <wumpus> most kinks in it have been worked out now, though, so it's not a big issue
1014 2013-04-07 12:24:33 <wumpus> yes we were able to resolve them, but I'd appreciate it if you could stand by yourself next time we merge a big thing by you :)
1015 2013-04-07 12:25:02 <CodeShark> I would have liked to do a little more testing prior to merging - but last week I had so much stuff going on
1016 2013-04-07 12:25:32 <CodeShark> you asked me to rebase it, so I did - that didn't mean I had actually done thorough testing :p
1017 2013-04-07 12:25:38 <wumpus> I did some testing, but I don't usually test things such as export, some things are always bound to be found only after merging :p
1018 2013-04-07 12:25:50 <wumpus> that's true, I'm not blaming anything on you
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1020 2013-04-07 12:27:58 <mughat_2> how to join the mailing lists
1021 2013-04-07 12:28:00 <mughat_2> ?
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1024 2013-04-07 12:31:42 <wumpus> http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/?source=navbar
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1031 2013-04-07 12:36:43 <joeykrim> thx for the link wumpus
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1035 2013-04-07 12:38:19 <sipa> Scrat: -walletnotify, -alertnotify, network/memory usage improvements, testnet seeds, a few small block validation improvements, may 15 changes
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1038 2013-04-07 12:39:05 <sipa> (not including any GUI changes, i'm less up-to-date with those)
1039 2013-04-07 12:39:10 <HM> "overloaded function with no contextual type information"
1040 2013-04-07 12:39:13 <HM> got to love GCC
1041 2013-04-07 12:39:27 <HM> the function isn't overload damnit, it's a non-member function with no template params ;-;
1042 2013-04-07 12:39:31 <HM> *overloaded
1043 2013-04-07 12:39:43 <sipa> Scrat: oh, and thread management cleanup, and a better progress bar, and new icons!
1044 2013-04-07 12:39:48 <wumpus> we should at least merge the new icon https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2477
1045 2013-04-07 12:39:49 <wumpus> yep
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1056 2013-04-07 12:57:24 <jn> hey, i'm working on a visualization using blockchain.info's websocket api. and i want to count the total amount of bitcoins transfered
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1058 2013-04-07 12:57:53 <jn> but as i understand it most transaction outputs are "change" going back to the sender
1059 2013-04-07 12:57:58 <jn> can i filter this out somehow?
1060 2013-04-07 12:58:18 <sipa> jn: you can probably guess in many cases, but in general it's designed not to be (trivially) possible
1061 2013-04-07 12:58:31 <sipa> the privacy of the system sort-of depends on not being able to find that out
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1063 2013-04-07 12:59:00 <jn> okay.. how would i go about guessing?
1064 2013-04-07 12:59:17 <sipa> if one output is 0.1 BTC and the other is 0.03818466
1065 2013-04-07 12:59:24 <sipa> what do you think the change is likely to be?
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1069 2013-04-07 12:59:45 <sipa> or if one output goes back to one of the prevout addresses
1070 2013-04-07 12:59:56 <sipa> (a bad practice in the first place, precisely for that reason)
1071 2013-04-07 13:00:28 <jn> hmm, yeah
1072 2013-04-07 13:00:31 <TD> jn: yeah you can't really know that
1073 2013-04-07 13:00:41 <TD> jn: besides, blockchain already offers a graph that tries to calculate it
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1076 2013-04-07 13:01:21 <sipa> jn: then again, it's perfectly possible to do 'mix' transactions that just mix coins from different users together, and split them out again to new address of those same users
1077 2013-04-07 13:01:29 <sipa> jn: and you'll likely make a very incorrect guess for those
1078 2013-04-07 13:01:40 <sipa> as technically 0 is transferred
1079 2013-04-07 13:02:34 <jn> TD: http://blockchain.info/charts/estimated-transaction-volume?daysAverageString=7 that one?
1080 2013-04-07 13:02:55 <jn> i think i'd better rethink my approach to this
1081 2013-04-07 13:03:16 <TD> something like that
1082 2013-04-07 13:03:24 <TD> what is your actual goal??
1083 2013-04-07 13:03:38 <TD> this is a decent measurement of "is bitcoin being used more": http://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-excluding-popular
1084 2013-04-07 13:03:46 <TD> http://blockchain.info/charts/n-unique-addresses
1085 2013-04-07 13:03:49 <TD> that one is also not bad
1086 2013-04-07 13:04:22 <jn> i want a ticker, saying X btc has changed hands since you started viewing this page
1087 2013-04-07 13:05:19 <sipa> interesting from a publicity standpoint, but i guess you need a disclaimer that your numbers are based on potentially incorrect assumptions, as this data is not intended to be public
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1089 2013-04-07 13:07:34 <sipa> anyone an idea how many signature checks the block chain now contains?
1090 2013-04-07 13:08:05 mercerist has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1091 2013-04-07 13:08:36 <jn> i'll whip up some code to try to estimate the actual amount transfered
1092 2013-04-07 13:09:24 <lianj> sipa: estimate? 28M
1093 2013-04-07 13:09:41 <sipa> lianj: seems reasonable, yes
1094 2013-04-07 13:10:13 <lianj>  30m inputs, some no sig scripts, some multisig
1095 2013-04-07 13:10:59 <sipa> i'll add a nSigChecks to script.cpp and do a reindex :)
1096 2013-04-07 13:12:10 <lianj> :)
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1102 2013-04-07 13:20:40 <diki> Quickie: If I wanted to write my own program to import private keys in a wallet, by directly editing the wallet.dat file, where do I begin?
1103 2013-04-07 13:21:27 <sipa> do db4.8_dump to convert the key/value pairs in the file to a usable form, edit those, and db4.8_load it into a new wallet.dat file
1104 2013-04-07 13:21:49 <sipa> unless you have bindings for BDB in your language
1105 2013-04-07 13:22:25 <diki> my language of choice is C, and I plan to insert, rather than edit.
1106 2013-04-07 13:22:34 <sipa> still :)
1107 2013-04-07 13:22:48 <sipa> you can use the BDB library directly in that case
1108 2013-04-07 13:23:00 <sipa> just add the necessary key entries
1109 2013-04-07 13:23:11 <diki> Is it not possible without the bdb library?
1110 2013-04-07 13:23:18 <sipa> no
1111 2013-04-07 13:23:37 <sipa> as even bdb changes its file format between releases
1112 2013-04-07 13:23:51 <diki> that is plain stupid by bdb
1113 2013-04-07 13:24:03 <sipa> the file format is really just "dump memory to a file"
1114 2013-04-07 13:24:11 <sipa> well, it's ancient technology
1115 2013-04-07 13:24:18 <sipa> it worked well for certain purposes in the past
1116 2013-04-07 13:24:25 <sipa> but we have much more manageable solutions now
1117 2013-04-07 13:25:10 <upb> like mongodb
1118 2013-04-07 13:27:26 <melvster> so it's possible to have an output with a script that requires NO key to spend it, am i right to say that?
1119 2013-04-07 13:27:34 <sipa> indeed
1120 2013-04-07 13:27:54 <melvster> this is interesting, so i could have no key, and add a PUZZLE?
1121 2013-04-07 13:28:00 <sipa> yes
1122 2013-04-07 13:28:05 <melvster> wow
1123 2013-04-07 13:28:06 <sipa> but any miner could steal it
1124 2013-04-07 13:28:18 <lianj> "OP_TRUE" as output script is most secure
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1126 2013-04-07 13:28:31 <sipa> as you provide the solution to spend it, so they can create a new transaction that reuses the same solution
1127 2013-04-07 13:28:36 <melvster> what else could i add other than a puzzle?  additional keys?
1128 2013-04-07 13:28:41 <sipa> and drop the origin spending transaction
1129 2013-04-07 13:28:45 <sipa> melvster: that's called multisig
1130 2013-04-07 13:29:39 <melvster> sipa: are there any good pointers to this other than the wiki, it's quite hard to get your head round ...
1131 2013-04-07 13:30:16 <sipa> melvster: there is a standard OP_CHECKMULTISIG ...
1132 2013-04-07 13:30:54 <sipa> which requires N successes out of a number of signatures given against M public keys given
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1134 2013-04-07 13:31:17 <melvster> fascinating
1135 2013-04-07 13:31:23 <melvster> satoshi invented all of this?
1136 2013-04-07 13:31:27 <sipa> typically, you'll use P2SH though; read BIP16 and BIP13
1137 2013-04-07 13:31:40 <sipa> yes, OP_CHECKMULTISIG was present in the very first release
1138 2013-04-07 13:31:51 <sipa> (though with a bug, we still have to workaround today)
1139 2013-04-07 13:31:59 <sipa> BIP13 and BIP16 obviously came later
1140 2013-04-07 13:32:19 <melvster> wow
1141 2013-04-07 13:32:31 <melvster> impressive
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1143 2013-04-07 13:33:06 <TD> melvster: you could have a puzzle if it was combined with a signature, too
1144 2013-04-07 13:33:10 <TD> though at that point it's unclear why you would
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1146 2013-04-07 13:33:32 <TD> in practice, a puzzle is probably OK unless it becomes a common thing. then indeed you might get dishonest miners who are stealing the coins
1147 2013-04-07 13:33:39 <lianj> or a silly password, output = "OP_SHA256 2c26b46b68ffc68ff99b453c1d30413413422d706483bfa0f98a5e886266e7ae OP_EQUAL" input = "foo"
1148 2013-04-07 13:33:50 <sipa> lianj: that's what i understand by 'puzzle'
1149 2013-04-07 13:33:54 <TD> yes
1150 2013-04-07 13:34:23 <TD> the issue is that the solution to the puzzle doesn't mix in the transaction hash. so the solution is valid for any transaction. the signature, on the other hand, is only valid for that transaction
1151 2013-04-07 13:34:39 <lianj> true
1152 2013-04-07 13:35:04 <melvster> thank you will digest
1153 2013-04-07 13:35:13 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
1154 2013-04-07 13:35:14 <melvster> (no puns intended!)
1155 2013-04-07 13:35:14 <gribble> 230124
1156 2013-04-07 13:35:24 <sipa> melvster: hash it up first
1157 2013-04-07 13:35:34 <melvster> :)
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1159 2013-04-07 13:36:57 <lianj> sipa: oh the wiki even mentions it as 'puzzle tx', didn't read that page in a while
1160 2013-04-07 13:36:58 <wumpus> lianj: that's like a simpler take on brainwallets :P
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1162 2013-04-07 13:37:14 <sipa> ha
1163 2013-04-07 13:37:38 <lianj> wumpus: but like TD said, only works once. as in after that ever one knows the password
1164 2013-04-07 13:37:47 <melvster> can all the clients work with the whole scripting suite ... have they been unit tested?  would be a shame to lose btc on a failed experiment
1165 2013-04-07 13:37:50 <wumpus> oh, indeed 
1166 2013-04-07 13:38:07 <lianj> melvster: use testnet
1167 2013-04-07 13:38:13 <melvster> ah ha
1168 2013-04-07 13:38:13 <melvster> thx
1169 2013-04-07 13:38:15 <wumpus> that's very good to remember
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1173 2013-04-07 13:38:44 <wumpus> once one person has found the pirate's stash, everyone will go looking for the rest :p
1174 2013-04-07 13:38:50 <sipa> melvster: they don't have to
1175 2013-04-07 13:38:56 * lianj starts to watch for testnet puzzle txs that are later reused on mainnet
1176 2013-04-07 13:39:11 <melvster> lol
1177 2013-04-07 13:39:17 <sipa> melvster: as clients create their own receive addresses, they only need to accept transactions coming in to a script they support themself
1178 2013-04-07 13:39:22 <jn> http://hastebin.com/hecokomija.coffee anoyne have some ideas to improve this?
1179 2013-04-07 13:40:05 <melvster> sipa: example could I hash a password and then use that to transfer bitcoins to someone ... they would only need to know the password and tx number to gain the coins?
1180 2013-04-07 13:40:25 <sipa> melvster: there is no client that will accept such a transaction
1181 2013-04-07 13:40:34 <sipa> you'll need to write your own code to spend it
1182 2013-04-07 13:40:37 <sipa> but yes, it would work
1183 2013-04-07 13:40:41 <melvster> wow
1184 2013-04-07 13:41:11 <sipa> there's no point in doing so
1185 2013-04-07 13:41:36 <sipa> the public-key crypto we have is much better at controlling who can spend something
1186 2013-04-07 13:41:45 [BNC]scripting is now known as scripting
1187 2013-04-07 13:42:02 <melvster> sure i get that, tho a password is easier to remember
1188 2013-04-07 13:42:16 <sipa> then have a private key based on that password?
1189 2013-04-07 13:42:19 <sipa> and send to its address
1190 2013-04-07 13:42:25 <lianj> and weaker, but its a fun exercise
1191 2013-04-07 13:42:30 <sipa> (btw: terrible idea)
1192 2013-04-07 13:42:51 <sipa> unless you generate the password really randomly (i.e., not by a human)
1193 2013-04-07 13:43:05 <sipa> at which point it is no easier to remember than any private key
1194 2013-04-07 13:43:10 <melvster> true
1195 2013-04-07 13:43:22 <maikie> Hi
1196 2013-04-07 13:43:30 <melvster> im thinking about the possibility of an easy to remember brain wallet
1197 2013-04-07 13:43:36 <sipa> melvster: don't
1198 2013-04-07 13:43:45 <maikie> Habla español alguno?
1199 2013-04-07 13:43:50 <lianj> Address.silly_find_key('42') => [:found, "14ZtDMZF1k2tFfVE1gzmTHMxyq8Maa6Hj9", "73475cb40a568e8da8a045ced110137e159f890ac4da883b6b17dc651b3a8049", "42"]
1200 2013-04-07 13:44:00 <sipa> maikie: #bitcoin-es ?
1201 2013-04-07 13:44:08 nomailing has joined
1202 2013-04-07 13:44:22 <melvster> ahh
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1205 2013-04-07 13:48:10 <melvster> this is the problem i really want to solve ... Alice has an RSA key pair n/m, but no bitcoin client or address ... Bob wants to transfer 1 BTC to alice, and communicate that to her so that she is the only one able to 'unlock' the sent coin
1206 2013-04-07 13:48:44 <melvster> Alice publishes the public key n
1207 2013-04-07 13:48:54 <melvster> but keeps the private key m secret
1208 2013-04-07 13:48:57 <sipa> bitcoin scripts can't do RSA
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1210 2013-04-07 13:49:24 <melvster> yes i see that
1211 2013-04-07 13:49:31 <melvster> but maybe some clever crypto work around
1212 2013-04-07 13:49:35 <sipa> no
1213 2013-04-07 13:50:07 <sipa> you can't do RSA without support for modular exponentiation of large number
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1215 2013-04-07 13:52:17 <melvster> what about a 256 bit rsa subkey
1216 2013-04-07 13:52:23 <sipa> even that
1217 2013-04-07 13:52:34 <melvster> ok thanks ... will think it over a bit more
1218 2013-04-07 13:52:41 <sipa> the only crypto primitive in bitcoin is ECDSA on the secp256k1 curve
1219 2013-04-07 13:52:52 <sipa> and SHA256 and RIPEMD160
1220 2013-04-07 13:53:15 <sipa> lianj: 32.5M
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1226 2013-04-07 13:53:41 <lianj> melvster: best you can do is generate a bitcoin address out of the hashed rsa key as ecdsa privkey, so they then have a bitcoin address
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1228 2013-04-07 13:53:50 <lianj> sipa: ha
1229 2013-04-07 13:54:18 <melvster> thanks
1230 2013-04-07 13:54:26 <lianj> melvster: but dont do it ;)
1231 2013-04-07 13:54:35 <melvster> ok only on test net :)
1232 2013-04-07 13:55:24 <sipa> TD: so in practice i get my bitcoind (with libsecp256k1...) to do 13400 sigchecks/s - in theory this CPU should be able to do 3x-4x as much, but the synchronization overhead per-block slows things down
1233 2013-04-07 13:57:14 <sipa> just writing the block index entry for each block already becomes significant compared to signature checking, it seems
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1242 2013-04-07 14:01:22 <maikie> Some bitcoin developer Here?
1243 2013-04-07 14:01:37 <phantomcircuit> ask your question
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1269 2013-04-07 14:22:39 <jaakkos> what might be an easy way to dump the utxo set? (i need the output amount and block timestamp of the block including that tx)
1270 2013-04-07 14:22:45 <cyberdo> I would like some testcoins if anyone has any to spare...
1271 2013-04-07 14:22:52 <cyberdo> moMumSh9NzNpiLerPtRjD7XES99kzbxbtx
1272 2013-04-07 14:23:27 <cyberdo> (1 or so should suffice.... I can experiment with microcoins to begin with)
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1276 2013-04-07 14:29:51 <TD> sipa: ok, good, i was hoping we'd get to the point where "other" dominated the profiles :)
1277 2013-04-07 14:30:17 <TD> sipa: probably that's a sign it's time to stop on optimising ecdsa and that the biggest bang for buck is now elsewhere
1278 2013-04-07 14:30:25 <TD> (well, assuming you get the code integrated… would be a shame to lose it over time)
1279 2013-04-07 14:33:05 hyperjacker has joined
1280 2013-04-07 14:34:41 <diki> Anyone managed to get oclvanitygen to work with catalyst 13?
1281 2013-04-07 14:35:03 <diki> For some reason I(and many others) keep getting "Compiling kernel, can take minutes...LLVM ERROR: Cannot" with more errors when running it
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1289 2013-04-07 14:44:22 <Happzz> can someone send me testnet coins? ms99dz2NHfcTBaMquhsPGGXRwZd8jTBHiA
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1292 2013-04-07 14:52:02 <TD> sipa: when will you finalise the deterministic wallets spec?
1293 2013-04-07 14:52:10 <TD> sipa: it's probably one of the next most important things to do in bitcoinj ...
1294 2013-04-07 14:52:16 <TD> Happzz: check tpfaucet.appspot.com
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1297 2013-04-07 14:53:51 <Happzz> TD looks broken
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1299 2013-04-07 14:54:13 <TD> how so? it loads for me
1300 2013-04-07 14:54:28 <Happzz> it doesn't send
1301 2013-04-07 14:54:42 <Happzz> aw here
1302 2013-04-07 14:54:48 <kermit_> 155, not bad
1303 2013-04-07 14:55:08 <kermit_> 155, holy crap
1304 2013-04-07 14:55:14 <TD> Happzz: you got them? i can send you some if you want
1305 2013-04-07 14:55:21 <TD> but if the faucet works, there's no need
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1307 2013-04-07 14:55:31 <Happzz> meh i emptied it
1308 2013-04-07 14:56:01 <Happzz> i guess it's so kind i gotta fill it up with some 300
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1310 2013-04-07 14:57:04 <TD> oh, don't empty the faucet! you don't need so many coins, really
1311 2013-04-07 14:57:09 <TD> remember they are subdivisible to small amounts
1312 2013-04-07 14:57:29 <Happzz> i know i know
1313 2013-04-07 14:57:41 <Happzz> i took like 20 and sent in like 300
1314 2013-04-07 14:57:47 <Happzz> that should hold for a while
1315 2013-04-07 14:57:49 <TD> ok
1316 2013-04-07 14:57:50 <TD> cool
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1356 2013-04-07 15:57:14 <sipa> Hello everyone,
1357 2013-04-07 15:57:16 <sipa> eh
1358 2013-04-07 15:57:22 <sipa> how did that get pasted here
1359 2013-04-07 15:57:45 <olyd88> hello sipa
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1394 2013-04-07 16:25:26 <graingert> what happens if someone manages to build a block chain that forks below a checkpoint and reaches a blockheight above the current value
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1397 2013-04-07 16:26:24 <graingert> is the checkpoint ignored for the higher hash power block that was mined as an attack?
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1400 2013-04-07 16:30:45 <graingert> also who here has the highest 1/(t(d^2)) where d is distance from Winchester UK and t is number of PGP web of trust hops from the bitcoin developers
1401 2013-04-07 16:31:44 <denisx> graingert: I would assume everything below the checkpoint is fixed
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1406 2013-04-07 16:32:47 <graingert> gmaxwell: ^
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1409 2013-04-07 16:33:33 <TD> the purpose of a checkpoint is to prevent re-orgs below it
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1424 2013-04-07 16:42:27 <gesell> is there a wiki concerning the directory and file structure for bitcoin-qt client? couldnt find one
1425 2013-04-07 16:43:02 <TD> there isn't
1426 2013-04-07 16:43:17 <gesell> something on bitcointalk maybe?
1427 2013-04-07 16:43:29 <gesell> remember there being a discussion when 0.8 was released but cant find it now
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1429 2013-04-07 16:43:41 <sipa> gesell: read doc/files.txt
1430 2013-04-07 16:43:44 JWU42 has joined
1431 2013-04-07 16:43:47 <gesell> aight
1432 2013-04-07 16:43:53 <gesell> thanks
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1444 2013-04-07 16:52:56 <wallet42> greetings, can i acces the blockchain data immediatly (leveldb api) ?
1445 2013-04-07 16:53:12 <graingert> wallet42: not immediatly
1446 2013-04-07 16:53:17 <graingert> wallet42: it will take some time
1447 2013-04-07 16:53:23 metabyte has joined
1448 2013-04-07 16:53:48 <wallet42> i dont want to go trough jsonrpc->bitcoind->blockchain.dat
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1452 2013-04-07 16:54:49 <fishfish> hello everyone :) quick q - if the bitcoind server has been down for a while, it obviously restarts by catching up on the blockchain. Is it however immediately aware of the current highest block #? (i'm trying to programatically define if the btcd server has been downed and for how long)
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1455 2013-04-07 16:55:32 <sipa> wallet42: the blockchain isn't stored in leveldb
1456 2013-04-07 16:55:32 toffoo has joined
1457 2013-04-07 16:55:38 <sipa> it's just a chain of blocks :)
1458 2013-04-07 16:55:56 <wallet42> but there is an index right?
1459 2013-04-07 16:56:11 <sipa> there is an index (i.e. which block on which disk position), and a database with unspent transaction outputs in leveldb
1460 2013-04-07 16:56:16 <wallet42> or how would the client find fast the output of tx 234121234123412341234
1461 2013-04-07 16:56:23 <sipa> it can't
1462 2013-04-07 16:56:34 <sipa> unless you enable the optional transaction index
1463 2013-04-07 16:56:35 <wallet42> hm...
1464 2013-04-07 16:56:46 <sipa> (which remembers which transaction is at which disk position)
1465 2013-04-07 16:56:53 <sipa> but by default, it doesn't need that
1466 2013-04-07 16:57:08 <wallet42> oke i need that :)
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1468 2013-04-07 16:57:15 <sipa> what for?
1469 2013-04-07 16:57:16 <Belxjander> wallet42: t4ls0 x calculations from the local copy of the blockchain which it has to update from the live network and re-index?
1470 2013-04-07 16:57:46 <wallet42> i want to create a webservice with statistical information about the chain
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1472 2013-04-07 16:57:47 <sipa> fishfish: there is no 'knowing' until it has actually downloaded and verified all blocks it didn't know about
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1474 2013-04-07 16:58:00 <sipa> fishfish: but it guesses based on what other peers report
1475 2013-04-07 16:58:45 <sipa> wallet42: leveldb is single-process however, so you may be able to write something that can fetch information from it, but only while bitcoind itself isn't running
1476 2013-04-07 16:59:01 <wallet42> but since i have to walk the while chain myself
1477 2013-04-07 16:59:02 <fishfish> Thanks Sipa. Do you know if it emits a flag that state that it has now successfully synced?
1478 2013-04-07 16:59:12 <sipa> fishfish: there is no 'synced'
1479 2013-04-07 16:59:18 <wallet42> i can do it probably faster if i build my own index
1480 2013-04-07 16:59:24 <sipa> fishfish: it just fetches blocks it didn't know about yet, continuously
1481 2013-04-07 16:59:26 <wallet42> thx anyway :)
1482 2013-04-07 16:59:59 <sipa> wallet42: that means you risk parsing side chains as well
1483 2013-04-07 17:00:08 <sipa> or invalid ones
1484 2013-04-07 17:00:11 <graingert> fishfish: you can work that out easy
1485 2013-04-07 17:00:13 <wallet42> i'm aware
1486 2013-04-07 17:00:20 <fishfish> graingert: how? :)
1487 2013-04-07 17:00:26 <sipa> fishfish: the best guess you can make is look at the timestamp of the last block
1488 2013-04-07 17:00:27 <graingert> fishfish: simply check the current block height/time
1489 2013-04-07 17:00:33 <graingert> fishfish: look at the current time
1490 2013-04-07 17:00:37 <sipa> if it's more than a few hours ago, you're very likely behind
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1492 2013-04-07 17:00:45 <graingert> fishfish: subtract and divide by 10
1493 2013-04-07 17:00:48 <graingert> minutes
1494 2013-04-07 17:00:50 <wallet42> but if i take a valid block hash and walk the way back it should be fine right?
1495 2013-04-07 17:00:51 <fishfish> gotcha
1496 2013-04-07 17:00:57 <graingert> that's how many blocks you're behind
1497 2013-04-07 17:01:01 <sipa> wallet42: indeed
1498 2013-04-07 17:01:07 <fishfish> it's not super clean but it will work! thank you graingert, sipa
1499 2013-04-07 17:01:13 <sipa> graingert: meh, too many statistical variation for that
1500 2013-04-07 17:01:24 <graingert> fishfish: it is possible to ask for the block height from your peers
1501 2013-04-07 17:01:27 <graingert> but they might lie
1502 2013-04-07 17:01:51 <graingert> fishfish: it's you get a very raw estimate unless you are days/weeks behind
1503 2013-04-07 17:02:08 <wallet42> fishfish: im not sure but i think i saw a LOC the other day that simply takes the median of all connected peers to find a value for blockcount
1504 2013-04-07 17:02:23 <sipa> wallet42: yup, that's one of the heuristics
1505 2013-04-07 17:02:35 <wallet42> main.cpp:51
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1507 2013-04-07 17:02:40 <wallet42> CMedianFilter<int> cPeerBlockCounts(8, 0); // Amount of blocks that other nodes claim to have
1508 2013-04-07 17:02:47 <sipa> unless there's a fenomenal drop in hashrate, the chance of the last block being 3-4 hours old is ridiculously small
1509 2013-04-07 17:03:10 <sipa> i believe that's a better heuristic that asking your peers (who may not be entirely up-to-date themself)
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1511 2013-04-07 17:04:44 <graingert> fishfish: basically ask everyone that claims to know, then work out a rough estimate yourself
1512 2013-04-07 17:04:55 <fishfish> right, that makes sense
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1514 2013-04-07 17:05:32 <graingert> fishfish: also if you just want to know down-time you could ask your OS
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1517 2013-04-07 17:06:00 <jackass_> lol
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1519 2013-04-07 17:07:07 <sipa> technically, the downtime at any time you're able to ask will be 0 :p
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1524 2013-04-07 17:12:16 <Happzz> i need some papers on bitcoin addresses and such. i wanna make a PHP class for it.
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1528 2013-04-07 17:13:11 <iwilcox> Happzz: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Technical_background_of_Bitcoin_addresses
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1532 2013-04-07 17:14:11 * HM thinks it's unfortunate that "std::string s; s = bool(false);" is valid C code
1533 2013-04-07 17:14:30 <HM> *C++ code
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1544 2013-04-07 17:18:18 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1545 2013-04-07 17:18:39 <franl> HM, is the bool() needed?  Isn't the type of false already bool?
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1551 2013-04-07 17:21:28 <HM> franl, it's not. it's just for emphasis on the madness
1552 2013-04-07 17:21:45 i2pRelay has joined
1553 2013-04-07 17:21:45 <franl> Heh. ok.
1554 2013-04-07 17:22:03 Aziz- has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
1555 2013-04-07 17:22:11 <HM> string has an operator=(char), but no constructor taking a single char.
1556 2013-04-07 17:22:41 <HM> so they thought it was a good idea to potentially allow any integer to be assigned to a string, as a raw character
1557 2013-04-07 17:22:54 <franl> G++ 4.5.3 won't compile that: error: ambiguous overload for 'operator=' in 's = false'
1558 2013-04-07 17:23:08 <HM> hmm
1559 2013-04-07 17:23:59 <HM> that's very strange
1560 2013-04-07 17:24:05 <Happzz> is the ECDSA a randomly generated number, or does it have make some sense?
1561 2013-04-07 17:24:05 <franl> But it takes this: std::string s; s = 95;
1562 2013-04-07 17:24:06 TD has joined
1563 2013-04-07 17:24:21 <HM> false shouldn't be ambiguous
1564 2013-04-07 17:24:38 <HM> oh
1565 2013-04-07 17:24:47 <HM> false is ambiguous because a null pointer is also 0 :)
1566 2013-04-07 17:24:57 <franl> yeah
1567 2013-04-07 17:24:59 <sipa> Happzz: 'the' ECDSA?
1568 2013-04-07 17:25:10 <sipa> Happzz: are you talking about a private key, or a signature?
1569 2013-04-07 17:25:12 <Happzz> sipa trying to follow https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Technical_background_of_Bitcoin_addresses
1570 2013-04-07 17:25:17 PRab has joined
1571 2013-04-07 17:25:25 <Happzz> first step would be generating a private key and public key pair i guess
1572 2013-04-07 17:25:33 <sipa> yes
1573 2013-04-07 17:26:04 <Happzz> well i need an ECDSA to work with, i guess?
1574 2013-04-07 17:26:16 <sipa> ECDSA is a set of algorithms
1575 2013-04-07 17:26:23 <sipa> not sure what you mean by 'an ECDSA'
1576 2013-04-07 17:26:43 <Happzz> "0 - Having a private ECDSA key"
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1580 2013-04-07 17:27:02 <sipa> ok, so you want an EC private key
1581 2013-04-07 17:27:32 <sipa> that's an integer between 1 and  FFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF FFFFFFFE BAAEDCE6 AF48A03B BFD25E8C D0364140 (in hex)
1582 2013-04-07 17:27:45 <Happzz> so i need to pick a random number?
1583 2013-04-07 17:27:56 <sipa> that's one way
1584 2013-04-07 17:28:13 <Happzz> (i'm trying to implement this in php, if you're familiar with the functions)
1585 2013-04-07 17:28:35 <sipa> from scratch?
1586 2013-04-07 17:28:43 <sipa> or using some library?
1587 2013-04-07 17:28:49 <lianj> sipa: maybe s/a public\/private ECDSA keypair/a public\/private ECDSA (using secp256k1 curve) keypair/ in the wiki
1588 2013-04-07 17:29:00 <Happzz> scratch. best way to learn :)
1589 2013-04-07 17:29:07 * elby twitches
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1591 2013-04-07 17:29:17 <sipa> Happzz: as long as you don't intend to use it in production, that's fine
1592 2013-04-07 17:29:20 <jouke> Use the botg script and implement that in php
1593 2013-04-07 17:29:23 <Happzz> and for production?
1594 2013-04-07 17:29:31 daveluke has joined
1595 2013-04-07 17:29:34 <sipa> Happzz: use a well-tested crypto library
1596 2013-04-07 17:29:38 <lianj> Happzz: getting crypto right is hard
1597 2013-04-07 17:29:49 <elby> there's no one on the planet that should use their own unreviewed crypto implementation
1598 2013-04-07 17:29:53 <Happzz> sipa like openssl?
1599 2013-04-07 17:29:55 <daveluke> do API's generally have testing environments?.. or can i have a development wallet?
1600 2013-04-07 17:29:59 ColinT has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1602 2013-04-07 17:30:03 <HM> elby: like the one sipa wrote? :P
1603 2013-04-07 17:30:10 <lianj> Happzz: yes, thats what bitcoin uses currently
1604 2013-04-07 17:30:16 * sipa is not very consistent in his advice
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1607 2013-04-07 17:30:25 <lianj> sipa: haha
1608 2013-04-07 17:30:26 <elby> do what i say not what i do!
1609 2013-04-07 17:30:26 <sipa> but he, i don't recommend using my library in production either
1610 2013-04-07 17:30:28 <Happzz> right. so i need to find out how to generate an EC private key with openssl.
1611 2013-04-07 17:30:29 <HM> advice is only good for one thing: passing on
1612 2013-04-07 17:31:10 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1613 2013-04-07 17:32:11 <HM> I've decided I hate bools
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1615 2013-04-07 17:32:44 <sipa> Happzz: generating a private key is trivial: take a random 32-byte sequence, and check that it's not larger than the order of the curve (that number i pasted above) or 0
1616 2013-04-07 17:33:16 <Happzz> sipa openssl_digest can do ecdsa-with-SHA1, but requires a data input.
1617 2013-04-07 17:33:36 <sipa> Happzz: we don't want digest, we want a signature
1618 2013-04-07 17:33:49 <sipa> and bitcoin uses double-SHA256 to hash its data, not SHA1
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1622 2013-04-07 17:35:01 <Happzz> ok well i lost you. i can't find anything in openssl that does that.
1623 2013-04-07 17:35:32 <sipa> Happzz: https://github.com/mdanter/phpecc
1624 2013-04-07 17:35:41 <sipa> that seems a from-scratch implementation that does that
1625 2013-04-07 17:36:33 <sipa> and here's how to use it for secp256k1: https://gist.github.com/scintill/3549107
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1628 2013-04-07 17:37:39 <Happzz> gonna read.
1629 2013-04-07 17:37:43 <scripting> better check that is not 1 to 100 too :P
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1631 2013-04-07 17:37:59 <lianj> great namespace, new Point
1632 2013-04-07 17:38:10 <scripting> would be hilarious if someone was stupid enough to store some coins on a private key that small
1633 2013-04-07 17:38:26 <scripting> Imaigne that someone with a private key of 1 :D
1634 2013-04-07 17:38:29 <scripting> too funny
1635 2013-04-07 17:38:29 <Happzz> what do you mean
1636 2013-04-07 17:39:10 <scripting> Well more like be sure the key is no where between 1 and say 1.4 trillion
1637 2013-04-07 17:39:20 <scripting> or some random trilion number
1638 2013-04-07 17:39:32 <scripting> thats probably not big enough
1639 2013-04-07 17:39:32 <sipa> scripting: no need to make sure
1640 2013-04-07 17:39:42 <sipa> the probability for each key is the same
1641 2013-04-07 17:39:47 <scripting> Yes I know
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1643 2013-04-07 17:39:57 <scripting> but its a good error check
1644 2013-04-07 17:39:58 <sipa> so assuming no biased generators, it also doesn't make sense to even go try that range specifically
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1646 2013-04-07 17:40:21 <scripting> check that the key is not between 1 and 100 trillion (or something close) :D
1647 2013-04-07 17:40:28 gdbz has joined
1648 2013-04-07 17:40:31 <sipa> no need
1649 2013-04-07 17:40:44 <scripting> I know there is no need but its better to be safe
1650 2013-04-07 17:40:46 <scripting> than sorry
1651 2013-04-07 17:41:37 <scripting> imagine someone made a private key of 100
1652 2013-04-07 17:41:41 <scripting> hypothetically
1653 2013-04-07 17:41:41 <helo> it isn't being safe... it doesn't matter
1654 2013-04-07 17:41:43 tyn has joined
1655 2013-04-07 17:41:51 <scripting> it would be emptied out with easy wouldn't it?
1656 2013-04-07 17:42:03 <scripting> just ppl looping through the first possible private keys
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1658 2013-04-07 17:42:14 <scripting> checking if there is a balance there
1659 2013-04-07 17:42:21 <sipa> but why would you look through the first possible keys, and not some other range of the same size?
1660 2013-04-07 17:42:40 <scripting> counting on someone with a broke/malfunctioning key generator
1661 2013-04-07 17:42:53 <scripting> that would of made such key without noticing
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1666 2013-04-07 17:47:36 <scripting> you understand my point now sipa?
1667 2013-04-07 17:47:58 <scripting> because a natural random private key would most likelly be huge
1668 2013-04-07 17:48:04 <scripting> in the quadrillions at least
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1670 2013-04-07 17:49:15 <scripting> so if a key is inside the trilions range its probably a malfunction
1671 2013-04-07 17:49:35 <sipa> scripting: well, if it is true that malfunctions exists, it makes sense to specifically try the range you expect to be more likely
1672 2013-04-07 17:49:43 <scripting> as that shouldn't be likelly to occour naturaly
1673 2013-04-07 17:49:54 <sipa> but i'm not sure such stupid malfunctions exist, though feel free to prove me wrong
1674 2013-04-07 17:50:14 <scripting> yes there is... because the malfunction by design or random would most likelly occour on this start of the series numbers
1675 2013-04-07 17:50:20 <scripting> from 1 to a few trillion
1676 2013-04-07 17:50:26 <scripting> not in the quadrillion + range
1677 2013-04-07 17:50:32 <sipa> well, i'm not convinced about that :)
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1679 2013-04-07 17:50:41 <scripting> thats your opinion :)
1680 2013-04-07 17:50:44 <scripting> not a fact :)
1681 2013-04-07 17:50:53 <scripting> I think its better to be safe than sorry
1682 2013-04-07 17:50:56 <scripting> thats my arguement
1683 2013-04-07 17:51:06 <sipa> neither is your assumption that a malfunction would result in specifically low numbers a fact
1684 2013-04-07 17:51:07 <wumpus> it's like looking for brainwallets with too-simple keys, you may get lucky...
1685 2013-04-07 17:51:07 <scripting> why take a chance of something so trivialy manipulated
1686 2013-04-07 17:51:19 <scripting> exactly wumpus
1687 2013-04-07 17:51:36 <sipa> indeed, keys that result from hashing trivial strings are much more likely that low-numbered keys
1688 2013-04-07 17:51:39 <sipa> imho
1689 2013-04-07 17:51:47 <scripting> yup
1690 2013-04-07 17:52:06 <lianj> (1..10_000).each{|n| Address.even_more_silly_key_kind(n) }; => nope
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1694 2013-04-07 17:53:05 * HM wonders if anyone has used a private key having the digits of Pi
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1696 2013-04-07 17:53:20 <scripting> probably there is someone stupid enough that done that
1697 2013-04-07 17:53:25 <scripting> worth looking at it
1698 2013-04-07 17:53:32 <scripting> then tell us about it here
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1701 2013-04-07 17:54:20 <HM> i just tried, but python doesn't seem to have a very good version of pi
1702 2013-04-07 17:54:22 <lianj> how many digests :P
1703 2013-04-07 17:54:29 <scripting> well check them all
1704 2013-04-07 17:54:34 <lianj> HM: likewise in ruby here
1705 2013-04-07 17:54:40 <scripting> from say 4 digits to as many as it takes to fill that 128bit
1706 2013-04-07 17:54:51 <scripting> try all the posibilities within that range
1707 2013-04-07 17:54:56 <sipa> 3.243F6A8885A308D313198A2E03707344A4093822299F31D0082EFA98EC4E6C8945
1708 2013-04-07 17:54:57 <sipa> in hex
1709 2013-04-07 17:55:05 <scripting> yeah
1710 2013-04-07 17:55:08 <scripting> try them all
1711 2013-04-07 17:55:35 <scripting> from 3243 to incrementing 1 digit to 3.243F6A8885A308D313198A2E03707344A4093822299F31D0082EFA98EC4E6C8945
1712 2013-04-07 17:55:48 <scripting> not that many possiblities like 50?
1713 2013-04-07 17:56:06 <scripting> like 60?
1714 2013-04-07 17:56:20 <scripting> check each one of those 60
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1718 2013-04-07 17:58:34 Tantadruj has quit (Quit: DoubleRecall Turns Paywalls Into Advertising Dollars - NYTimes.com http://nyti.ms/odHOgy)
1719 2013-04-07 17:58:44 sud3n has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1721 2013-04-07 17:59:57 sud3n has joined
1722 2013-04-07 17:59:58 <scripting> if you find some bits I want 10% of it
1723 2013-04-07 18:00:04 <scripting> for being a good luck charm only fair :P
1724 2013-04-07 18:00:18 <lianj> for trying something silly?
1725 2013-04-07 18:00:30 <scripting> for being inspiration :D
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1727 2013-04-07 18:01:27 Cory has quit ()
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1729 2013-04-07 18:01:54 i2pRelay has joined
1730 2013-04-07 18:02:10 <scripting> try that in fake (hex) too (untranslated) dec equivalent
1731 2013-04-07 18:02:24 <scripting> thats another thing someone stupid "might" do
1732 2013-04-07 18:03:09 <scripting> would be funny if someone found like 1000 bitcoins
1733 2013-04-07 18:03:16 <scripting> on the one with the most digits
1734 2013-04-07 18:03:43 <scripting> clean the account to a safe account first then public a story about it :D
1735 2013-04-07 18:03:47 <scripting> *publish
1736 2013-04-07 18:03:56 <graingert> scripting: whut?
1737 2013-04-07 18:04:17 <scripting> if someone found 1000 bitcoins on: private key: 3243F6A8885A308D313198A2E03707344A4093822299F31D0082EFA98EC4E6C8945
1738 2013-04-07 18:04:24 <scripting> or something like that
1739 2013-04-07 18:04:32 <B0g4r7> How can I control which transactions get included in a mined block when solomining against bitcoind?
1740 2013-04-07 18:04:39 MKCoin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1741 2013-04-07 18:05:06 <B0g4r7> Is there an API call or something, or would I have to hax the code to hand-select ones to include or exclude?
1742 2013-04-07 18:05:33 jtimon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1743 2013-04-07 18:05:33 Blackreign has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1744 2013-04-07 18:05:45 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
1745 2013-04-07 18:05:49 cheebydi has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1746 2013-04-07 18:05:54 <lianj> scripting: tried some, ofc no luck
1747 2013-04-07 18:06:04 <scripting> I guess no one is that stupid huh
1748 2013-04-07 18:06:06 <scripting> or at least not yet
1749 2013-04-07 18:06:11 <scripting> maybe in 2 years more
1750 2013-04-07 18:06:13 <scripting> someone will be that stupid
1751 2013-04-07 18:06:14 SchmalzTech has joined
1752 2013-04-07 18:06:21 <scripting> once bitcoin's market is bigger than silves
1753 2013-04-07 18:06:24 <scripting> *silvers
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1762 2013-04-07 18:09:45 <denisx> assuming one company would only use the ASICs for themself to mine and get more than 50%, would the foundation threaten with changing to another hash or something if they not start to speard the ASICs?
1763 2013-04-07 18:09:54 <HM> scripting: if you plan on publishing the story you may as well keep the coins
1764 2013-04-07 18:09:57 Blackreign has joined
1765 2013-04-07 18:10:00 i2pRelay has joined
1766 2013-04-07 18:10:08 <HM> you can't find the original owner easily anyway, and it's hard for them to prove ownership
1767 2013-04-07 18:10:15 <HM> interesting moral dilemma
1768 2013-04-07 18:10:24 <Luke-Jr> as anyone besides bc.i stuck on a forked block 230145?
1769 2013-04-07 18:10:29 paybitcoin has joined
1770 2013-04-07 18:10:36 <scripting> hahaha hardly moral someone that stupid desorves to have their coins lost
1771 2013-04-07 18:10:50 <scripting> and probably admit to disorving such punishment
1772 2013-04-07 18:11:02 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: you're stuck on 230142? :/
1773 2013-04-07 18:11:38 <lianj> 230145 is 00000000000001a3fb252ef7df43d70f751fcaac014e25b2fb31247ec255f715 here
1774 2013-04-07 18:11:50 <HM> stealing from the stupid is no more legal than stealing from the smart and safe
1775 2013-04-07 18:11:51 MobPhone has joined
1776 2013-04-07 18:12:03 <scripting> its not really "stealing" though
1777 2013-04-07 18:12:04 <kinlo> Luke-Jr: why do you think that?
1778 2013-04-07 18:12:12 <Luke-Jr> http://blockorigin.pfoe.be/blocklist.php
1779 2013-04-07 18:12:16 <scripting> because one could argue that all this money is public
1780 2013-04-07 18:12:25 <scripting> well all our bitcoins are "public"
1781 2013-04-07 18:12:35 copumpkin has joined
1782 2013-04-07 18:12:35 <scripting> if private keys are trivial specially or given away
1783 2013-04-07 18:12:39 <Luke-Jr> scripting: and get shot down by any competent judge/jury
1784 2013-04-07 18:12:43 <scripting> thats why I don't think it would be stealing
1785 2013-04-07 18:12:56 <sipa> denisx: i hope the foundation is not capable of changing the hash function
1786 2013-04-07 18:12:58 <kinlo> Luke-Jr: blockorigin delays - on purpose - by about 10 blocks so it doesn't have to scrape every pool every time a block is found
1787 2013-04-07 18:13:00 <lianj> scripting: but the person must not be stupid, he could also have just bad luck
1788 2013-04-07 18:13:02 <sipa> denisx: (they can lobby for it, of course)
1789 2013-04-07 18:13:18 <scripting> nope the chance of such bad luck is infinitissemal
1790 2013-04-07 18:13:22 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: oh, I see
1791 2013-04-07 18:13:32 <scripting> as you know collisions on those number of bits are more than rare
1792 2013-04-07 18:13:44 <kinlo> Luke-Jr: and again, blockorigin is 100% scraping, I scrape blockexplorer.com for block data - I don't have the diskspace for a bitcoin client on that server :)
1793 2013-04-07 18:14:09 <denisx> sipa: I could imagine that a company tries to use all ASICs for themself, it just makes more money
1794 2013-04-07 18:14:32 <scripting> thats why I don't really believe on that butterfly company
1795 2013-04-07 18:15:01 <scripting> any company like that with half a brain might maybe sell a few but invest all that money on building more machines for themselves
1796 2013-04-07 18:15:07 rhodon has joined
1797 2013-04-07 18:15:21 <denisx> I would do that if I could
1798 2013-04-07 18:15:23 <scripting> and use the profits to have a monopoly on bitcoin making
1799 2013-04-07 18:15:34 <scripting> if those butterfly guys are real
1800 2013-04-07 18:15:37 <scripting> thats probably their exact plan
1801 2013-04-07 18:15:40 <Luke-Jr> scripting: no, you have it backward
1802 2013-04-07 18:15:43 <rhodon> We are recruiting those who can work with BTC client source code to create a NEW cryptocurrency! Please PM me if you are interested, or need more details!
1803 2013-04-07 18:15:46 <scripting> explain: ??
1804 2013-04-07 18:15:50 <denisx> they increased the prize already
1805 2013-04-07 18:15:55 <scripting> yes...
1806 2013-04-07 18:15:58 <Luke-Jr> scripting: it's far more profitable to sell the shovels, than to try to mine all the goal yourself
1807 2013-04-07 18:16:09 <denisx> Luke-Jr: sure?
1808 2013-04-07 18:16:11 <scripting> the price increase is so their profits are largers than the ppl they selling hte machines for
1809 2013-04-07 18:16:16 kalleboo has joined
1810 2013-04-07 18:16:19 <scripting> so the manufacturing cost is like 1 third
1811 2013-04-07 18:16:19 <Luke-Jr> rhodon: this is not the place to recruit people for scams
1812 2013-04-07 18:16:28 <lianj> denisx: the difficulty will retarget anyway
1813 2013-04-07 18:16:34 <scripting> so using the 2/3 profit they make 2 machines to each 1 machine they sell
1814 2013-04-07 18:16:44 <rhodon> Luke-Jr: This is not a scam. You have to know before saying.
1815 2013-04-07 18:16:45 <scripting> so every sale just fuels their monopoly
1816 2013-04-07 18:16:51 <Luke-Jr> denisx: of course; you can sell the devices at today's profitability rates
1817 2013-04-07 18:17:01 <B0g4r7> When they announced the machines, the gold was $6/nug.  Now it/s ~$160/nug.
1818 2013-04-07 18:17:01 <scripting> Thats what I think their planning to do
1819 2013-04-07 18:17:05 <Luke-Jr> and the faster you mine, the more you compete with yourself
1820 2013-04-07 18:17:06 <B0g4r7> g.
1821 2013-04-07 18:17:17 <rhodon> Luke-Jr
1822 2013-04-07 18:17:18 <scripting> if those machines are real... I think they will take down the bitcoin market
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1825 2013-04-07 18:17:29 <Luke-Jr> rhodon: really? well it isn't bitcoin one way or another
1826 2013-04-07 18:17:45 <scripting> and it would drive the price of them way way down too
1827 2013-04-07 18:17:52 <Luke-Jr> scripting: and the monopoly ALSO devalues the mined currency
1828 2013-04-07 18:17:53 <rhodon> Luke-Jr ? what do you mean
1829 2013-04-07 18:17:54 <scripting> because once they get their computer power high enough...
1830 2013-04-07 18:17:57 <scripting> yes
1831 2013-04-07 18:18:01 i2pRelay has joined
1832 2013-04-07 18:18:04 <scripting> they wouldnt mind devaluing it though
1833 2013-04-07 18:18:16 <scripting> because they could "release" new coins at will
1834 2013-04-07 18:18:23 <scripting> they would become the federal reserve of bitcoin
1835 2013-04-07 18:18:24 <Luke-Jr> rhodon: I mean scam or not, it's off-topic here. (and since you didn't give any reason for your "NEW cryptocurrency", it is presumed a scam)
1836 2013-04-07 18:18:40 <scripting> thus another corrupt money printing system
1837 2013-04-07 18:18:40 <Luke-Jr> scripting: nobody can do that
1838 2013-04-07 18:18:41 <rhodon> Well where should I recruit then, huh?
1839 2013-04-07 18:18:55 <scripting> why not what is there to stop that?
1840 2013-04-07 18:18:57 <Luke-Jr> rhodon: Dice.com
1841 2013-04-07 18:19:05 <Luke-Jr> scripting: the Bitcoin protocol
1842 2013-04-07 18:19:14 <sipa> rhodon: Luke-Jr has sort of a controversial opinion about that - experimenting with new cryptocurrencies is interesting imho, but only if they are intended as an experiment (as is bitcoin itself); that said, most people here have well-formed opinions about what improvements could be made to a new cryptocurrency, and will likely rather try getting it into bitcoin instead :)
1843 2013-04-07 18:19:56 <scripting> why is difficulty not predictable for future coins?
1844 2013-04-07 18:20:00 <rhodon> :) thanks for your reply, sipa! i agree
1845 2013-04-07 18:20:08 <sipa> rhodon: if you really have an interesting idea to try, explain it
1846 2013-04-07 18:20:11 <scripting> the difficulty variable?
1847 2013-04-07 18:20:13 <sipa> rhodon: perhaps people agree
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1849 2013-04-07 18:20:40 <scripting> I don't understand the technical aspect to why the bitcoin protocol prevents that
1850 2013-04-07 18:20:46 <scripting> care to explain Luke?
1851 2013-04-07 18:20:55 kalleboo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1852 2013-04-07 18:21:16 <scripting> sipa is this true what Luke is saying?
1853 2013-04-07 18:21:23 <sipa> i haven't followed
1854 2013-04-07 18:21:31 <Luke-Jr> scripting: there are 144 blocks per day, with predefined subsidy value
1855 2013-04-07 18:21:42 tkolsto has joined
1856 2013-04-07 18:21:43 <Luke-Jr> scripting: that's the most anyone can get
1857 2013-04-07 18:21:45 <MWNinja_> Is there someway we could get faster confirmations (will asic solve this?) A retail merchant can't have customers waiting around for 6 confirmations
1858 2013-04-07 18:21:47 <Luke-Jr> generate*
1859 2013-04-07 18:21:55 <scripting> he is saying there is something by design on the bitcoin protocol that prevents someone for "pre-discovering" future coins at future difficulty levels
1860 2013-04-07 18:21:57 <sipa> MWNinja_: asics will not change that
1861 2013-04-07 18:22:09 <scripting> yes they would be limited to that
1862 2013-04-07 18:22:10 <Luke-Jr> MWNinja_: they don't have people waiting around the 6 months that credit cards require to confirm
1863 2013-04-07 18:22:12 Perdos has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1864 2013-04-07 18:22:14 <scripting> but what i am saying
1865 2013-04-07 18:22:17 <sipa> scripting: yes, you can't mine without knowing the previous coins
1866 2013-04-07 18:22:19 <sipa> eh blocks
1867 2013-04-07 18:22:20 <scripting> they could have a mononpoly on that
1868 2013-04-07 18:22:22 <digitalmagus> scripting: difficulty is dependant on previous hash rates. The higher the hash rates the higher the difficulty. So since you can't predict what the hashrate is going to be, you can't predict difficulty.
1869 2013-04-07 18:22:32 <Luke-Jr> scripting: and bitcoins are worthless, so 0 = 0
1870 2013-04-07 18:22:36 <scripting> say out of each of those 144 if they pre-fabricated say 120
1871 2013-04-07 18:22:46 <scripting> nope
1872 2013-04-07 18:22:48 <sipa> how can you 'pre-fabricate' ?
1873 2013-04-07 18:22:51 <MWNinja_> its hard to doublespend creditcards, but easy to try with bitcoins
1874 2013-04-07 18:22:52 <scripting> look at the diamond cartel?
1875 2013-04-07 18:22:53 <sipa> without huge hashrare
1876 2013-04-07 18:23:02 <scripting> are you saying diamonds are worthless?
1877 2013-04-07 18:23:09 <Luke-Jr> MWNinja_: it's not hard to chargeback credit cards
1878 2013-04-07 18:23:21 <scripting> they are worth something because they control "supply" and adjust it as they see fit
1879 2013-04-07 18:23:39 <MWNinja_> for virtual goods true, but its not as easy with card present physical goods
1880 2013-04-07 18:23:45 <rhodon> sipa, and others: what would make our currency unique, is that it would have much lower transaction fees, and be easier to mine blocks. Also, it would be about 100 coins per block, and would halve every YEAR.
1881 2013-04-07 18:24:05 <MWNinja_> chargeback risk isn't as much of a concern for brick and mortar retail as it is online
1882 2013-04-07 18:24:08 zaxscd has joined
1883 2013-04-07 18:24:09 <Luke-Jr> rhodon: so no real difference
1884 2013-04-07 18:24:10 <sipa> rhodon: doesn't sound interesting at all to me
1885 2013-04-07 18:24:22 <Luke-Jr> sounds like a scamcoin to me
1886 2013-04-07 18:24:34 <sipa> rhodon: and transaction fees aren't inherent to the bitcoin protocol at all, it is +- set by the market
1887 2013-04-07 18:24:37 <scripting> if future difficuties levels are predictable/forseable: someone with enough computing power could pre-fabricate them
1888 2013-04-07 18:24:38 <rhodon> that way we get to 21 million (or however many coins we have total) much quicker
1889 2013-04-07 18:24:48 <MWNinja_> sure as merchants accept bitcoin with 0 confirmations, somebody will make a doublespend android wallet
1890 2013-04-07 18:24:55 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
1891 2013-04-07 18:25:00 <sipa> rhodon: _now_ it's starting to sound like a pump-and-dump to me too :)
1892 2013-04-07 18:25:06 <rhodon> 5min blocks...
1893 2013-04-07 18:25:15 <rhodon> versus the current 2.5 for some currencies
1894 2013-04-07 18:25:29 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1895 2013-04-07 18:25:37 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
1896 2013-04-07 18:25:53 <scripting> you understand my point now sipa?
1897 2013-04-07 18:25:59 <MWNinja_> The only solution I guess is an authenticated private wallet system denominated in BTC but processed over traditional networks
1898 2013-04-07 18:26:03 i2pRelay has joined
1899 2013-04-07 18:26:12 <sipa> rhodon: if you want to do something interesting (not just tweak a few constants), look here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hardfork_Wishlist
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1905 2013-04-07 18:27:44 <scripting> infact how does ppl know if that butterfly company havent already finished their project is simply making all the coins now... making the suckers wait for delivery?
1906 2013-04-07 18:28:00 <scripting> or even... if they just dont refund the money when suckers complain for long enough
1907 2013-04-07 18:28:27 <scripting> since they already used their forcely "borrowed money" to make so many bitcoins to cover for it
1908 2013-04-07 18:28:46 rmwb has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1909 2013-04-07 18:28:48 <scripting> using their new technology
1910 2013-04-07 18:28:52 nsillik has joined
1911 2013-04-07 18:29:44 <Luke-Jr> scripting: now you're just trolling
1912 2013-04-07 18:29:53 <scripting> sounds like you work for them
1913 2013-04-07 18:29:59 rhodon has left ()
1914 2013-04-07 18:30:00 <scripting> if you are saying I am trolling
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1916 2013-04-07 18:30:26 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1917 2013-04-07 18:30:45 <Luke-Jr> the "BFL is mining now!" thing could be ignorance, but the "forcely "borrowed money"" part is obviously only possible as a troll
1918 2013-04-07 18:31:06 <scripting> Then maybe you don't understand what I am saying...
1919 2013-04-07 18:31:20 <Luke-Jr> BFL didn't force anyone to do anything
1920 2013-04-07 18:31:38 <Luke-Jr> people preordered of their own free will, and chose not to request a refund of their own free will
1921 2013-04-07 18:31:43 <scripting> Has the butterfly company taken payments for machines they haven't delivered yes or not?
1922 2013-04-07 18:31:54 <scripting> Well you made my point for me
1923 2013-04-07 18:32:03 nsillik has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1924 2013-04-07 18:32:08 <scripting> So thats what I mean by "forced borrowing"
1925 2013-04-07 18:32:19 <Luke-Jr> except it isn't forced, so you're trolling
1926 2013-04-07 18:32:22 manet has joined
1927 2013-04-07 18:32:29 <scripting> the pre-orders being part of their ponzi scheme to gain capital to build the machines in the first place
1928 2013-04-07 18:32:30 <Luke-Jr> nor is it borrowed
1929 2013-04-07 18:32:40 <scripting> wow you are dense
1930 2013-04-07 18:32:44 <Luke-Jr> there is no evidence of that
1931 2013-04-07 18:32:49 nsillik has joined
1932 2013-04-07 18:32:50 <scripting> Why does there need to be?
1933 2013-04-07 18:32:58 BitMagnet has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1934 2013-04-07 18:32:59 <scripting> In order for it to be real?
1935 2013-04-07 18:33:01 <scripting> You work for them?
1936 2013-04-07 18:33:03 abuees has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1937 2013-04-07 18:33:10 <scripting> Sounds like you do.
1938 2013-04-07 18:33:18 bwen has joined
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1940 2013-04-07 18:33:57 <scripting> Their technology is a threat to the bitcoin market to say the least if they have no competition...
1941 2013-04-07 18:34:02 i2pRelay has joined
1942 2013-04-07 18:34:04 <scripting> That much should be obvious to anyone.
1943 2013-04-07 18:34:08 <scripting> With half a brain
1944 2013-04-07 18:34:09 <MWNinja_> if a merchant service provider had enough hashpower could they ensure that their transaction wins in case of doublespends?
1945 2013-04-07 18:34:28 <scripting> Good question..
1946 2013-04-07 18:35:36 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
1947 2013-04-07 18:35:49 <MWNinja_> I need to solve  the doublespend problem without going to a private wallet solution
1948 2013-04-07 18:36:18 <bwen> http://blockchain.info/double-spends
1949 2013-04-07 18:36:55 <joeykrim> scripting, should take your energy and start some competition for them
1950 2013-04-07 18:37:25 <scripting> point made
1951 2013-04-07 18:37:26 nagev has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1952 2013-04-07 18:37:55 <scripting> Still doesn't take the fact that I am right in what I said...
1953 2013-04-07 18:38:07 <scripting> Those ppl are a threat... to bitcoin at present
1954 2013-04-07 18:38:14 FredEE has joined
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1957 2013-04-07 18:38:48 <joeykrim> scripting, the thread you're hinting at is that they could control over 50% mining with the technology?
1958 2013-04-07 18:38:51 <joeykrim> threat*
1959 2013-04-07 18:40:17 <scripting> Yes, but even with less say 40%
1960 2013-04-07 18:40:22 <scripting> they would still be a huge threat
1961 2013-04-07 18:40:43 <scripting> as they could manipulate the markets
1962 2013-04-07 18:40:44 <MWNinja_> that would take a huge amount of electricity
1963 2013-04-07 18:41:05 <scripting> doesnt matter if they needed their own nuclear power plant cover it
1964 2013-04-07 18:41:11 <MWNinja_> better to sell them and let users supply the electricty
1965 2013-04-07 18:41:19 <joeykrim> i do think the majority mining is a known and acknowledged threat from what ive read
1966 2013-04-07 18:41:26 <scripting> as long as they making more value in their bitcoin fixing than the energy costs
1967 2013-04-07 18:41:29 <scripting> they are happy
1968 2013-04-07 18:41:30 <joeykrim> threat/weakness
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1970 2013-04-07 18:42:04 i2pRelay has joined
1971 2013-04-07 18:42:18 <scripting> yes but even below 50% like 40% they would control the markets and set their own price targets
1972 2013-04-07 18:42:42 <scripting> wish means they would become a cartel like the diamond cartel in the real world
1973 2013-04-07 18:42:58 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1974 2013-04-07 18:42:59 <scripting> "De_Beers
1975 2013-04-07 18:43:16 <MWNinja_> ASICMiner is a bigger threat in that regard, BFL at this point won't be able to pull something like that off without jail time
1976 2013-04-07 18:43:27 hmmmstrange has joined
1977 2013-04-07 18:43:41 <scripting> Why would there be jail time for it, nothing that they would be doing would quantify as illegal
1978 2013-04-07 18:43:52 <scripting> Where do you get this "jail" idea from?
1979 2013-04-07 18:44:18 <scripting> We are the ones that set the "value" of bitcoin, its not recognised as an official currency anywhere in this world.
1980 2013-04-07 18:44:24 <MWNinja_> they need to deliver customer products, if they were found to be using customer product for profit it wouldn't go down well
1981 2013-04-07 18:44:33 <scripting> Nothing that manipulates it breaks any "laws".
1982 2013-04-07 18:44:35 <MWNinja_> they are a US business and need to follow US law
1983 2013-04-07 18:44:46 MKCoin has joined
1984 2013-04-07 18:44:52 <scripting> Banksters have gotten away with far worst
1985 2013-04-07 18:44:56 <scripting> look at HBOS...
1986 2013-04-07 18:45:03 <scripting> they got away with their rates fixing
1987 2013-04-07 18:45:32 <MWNinja_> that doesn't mean they can't make extra boxes and mine with them, I am sure they will do that too
1988 2013-04-07 18:45:36 <scripting> you're naive to think there is a plausible way by law to stop these guys
1989 2013-04-07 18:45:47 <scripting> why just "extra boxes"
1990 2013-04-07 18:45:48 <MWNinja_> but if they don't deliver to customers it will fall hard
1991 2013-04-07 18:46:11 <scripting> nothing that prevents them from holding 80% of functional boxes world-wide
1992 2013-04-07 18:46:18 user has joined
1993 2013-04-07 18:46:22 <scripting> yes but read what I said earlier
1994 2013-04-07 18:46:48 <MWNinja_> other than it would take more power than the grid could deliver to run them
1995 2013-04-07 18:46:51 <scripting> They can sell 1 box, use that money to make themselves and run 2 boxes..
1996 2013-04-07 18:47:09 <scripting> thats crazy...
1997 2013-04-07 18:47:22 <scripting> like I said before nothing that stops them buying their own powerplant
1998 2013-04-07 18:47:27 <scripting> to run their project.
1999 2013-04-07 18:47:41 user has quit (Client Quit)
2000 2013-04-07 18:47:48 <scripting> If they are making money in the 100s of millions
2001 2013-04-07 18:47:54 ThomasV has joined
2002 2013-04-07 18:48:15 <MWNinja_> other than the up front investment, and opportunity cost of using billions to wager on something worth much less
2003 2013-04-07 18:48:36 <scripting> So how do you justify De Beers
2004 2013-04-07 18:48:41 <joeykrim> scripting, why is them controlling 40% a concern as opposed to the accepted 50%+ for majority mining?
2005 2013-04-07 18:49:20 <scripting> they both a concern... 40% is easier to sustain without causing too much suspetion or risk breaking the market.
2006 2013-04-07 18:49:35 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2007 2013-04-07 18:49:51 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
2008 2013-04-07 18:50:13 i2pRelay has joined
2009 2013-04-07 18:50:14 <Luke-Jr> joeykrim: "accepted 50%+" is a myth
2010 2013-04-07 18:50:23 <Luke-Jr> joeykrim: 50% is just where rate of success reaches 100%
2011 2013-04-07 18:50:25 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2012 2013-04-07 18:50:30 <Luke-Jr> joeykrim: 40% is sufficient for a 50/50 chance
2013 2013-04-07 18:50:39 <scripting> exactly.
2014 2013-04-07 18:50:39 <Luke-Jr> (assuming 6-deep confirms)
2015 2013-04-07 18:51:02 <scripting> 40% is what they would want to aim for
2016 2013-04-07 18:51:16 <scripting> because it doesn't risk destroying the market they are planning to monopolise
2017 2013-04-07 18:51:30 zaxscd has joined
2018 2013-04-07 18:51:36 <scripting> thats why they wouldnt mind selling those early adopted machines either
2019 2013-04-07 18:51:40 polrpaul has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2020 2013-04-07 18:51:48 <scripting> it would assure there is enough competition from them to keep the ponzi going
2021 2013-04-07 18:51:54 grnbrg has joined
2022 2013-04-07 18:52:03 <joeykrim> Luke-Jr, ah interesting .. ive read the 50%+ on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weaknesses#Attacker_has_a_lot_of_computing_power
2023 2013-04-07 18:52:52 <Luke-Jr> hmm, we should fix that up I guess
2024 2013-04-07 18:52:58 <scripting> I'm telling you guys this is where its all heading for...
2025 2013-04-07 18:53:02 random_cat has joined
2026 2013-04-07 18:53:03 <deadweasel> is this the place to ask for spefic inst. on setting up cold wallet?  ubuntu x64, freshly wiped machine, no inet connected. bitcoind installed.
2027 2013-04-07 18:53:06 <deadweasel> ?
2028 2013-04-07 18:53:07 <scripting> With those butterfly dudes
2029 2013-04-07 18:53:12 <scripting> Thats what they are about.
2030 2013-04-07 18:53:20 <scripting> I would bet on that if I could.
2031 2013-04-07 18:53:32 <scripting> I'm dead sure of it
2032 2013-04-07 18:53:50 <MWNinja_> I think they just want to sell product and as much of it as they can
2033 2013-04-07 18:54:03 darwin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2034 2013-04-07 18:54:07 hmmmstrange has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2035 2013-04-07 18:54:08 <MWNinja_> as their margin on it is amazing
2036 2013-04-07 18:54:29 <scripting> your just naive man, and know nothing about how business is conducted at the highest levels
2037 2013-04-07 18:54:33 <MWNinja_> and they can make real US dollars for their investors without all the crazy risk
2038 2013-04-07 18:54:47 <scripting> They might turn to that strategy if there is suddenly competition..
2039 2013-04-07 18:54:56 <joeykrim> Luke-Jr, does the influence depend not only on % of mining control but also number of confirmations considered?
2040 2013-04-07 18:54:59 <scripting> because they could just sell their execess machines...
2041 2013-04-07 18:55:12 <Luke-Jr> joeykrim: of course
2042 2013-04-07 18:55:41 HiWEB has joined
2043 2013-04-07 18:55:56 ielo has joined
2044 2013-04-07 18:56:16 <scripting> the funniest thing is there is nothing anyone can really do about it all
2045 2013-04-07 18:56:32 <scripting> well maybe in exception to expose their plan
2046 2013-04-07 18:56:39 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2047 2013-04-07 18:56:58 <joeykrim> scripting, so you're saying bfl will aim for 40% control of mining so they can then do what? manipulate transactions?
2048 2013-04-07 18:57:24 form has joined
2049 2013-04-07 18:57:27 <scripting> nope fix value
2050 2013-04-07 18:57:37 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2051 2013-04-07 18:57:40 <scripting> thats what they are doing it for
2052 2013-04-07 18:57:48 <scripting> just to control the ups and downs
2053 2013-04-07 18:57:49 dust-otc has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2054 2013-04-07 18:57:53 <scripting> of the market
2055 2013-04-07 18:57:57 zveda has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2056 2013-04-07 18:58:05 <scripting> and at the same time have the most bitcoins
2057 2013-04-07 18:58:05 <form> hi. how does services like blockchain/blockexplorer lookup someone's balance? cant find a way to do that with bitcoin rpc api.
2058 2013-04-07 18:58:11 i2pRelay has joined
2059 2013-04-07 18:58:16 <skinnkavaj> gavinandresen, sipa, gmaxwell: did you guys see this? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=169558.0
2060 2013-04-07 18:58:34 <deadweasel> is this the place to ask for spefic inst. on setting up cold wallet?
2061 2013-04-07 18:58:43 <MWNinja_> even if there were to get 30% of all the newly minted coins, it wouldn't be enough to control the market
2062 2013-04-07 18:58:50 Anduckkk has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2063 2013-04-07 18:58:50 parasciidic has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2064 2013-04-07 18:58:51 <joeykrim> scripting, whats the advantage to controlling the ups/downs?
2065 2013-04-07 18:59:30 <scripting> Thats a really stupid question man
2066 2013-04-07 18:59:53 <scripting> If you don't know the answer to that you shouldn't be trying to write an article or essay about the subject
2067 2013-04-07 19:00:08 Blackreign has quit ()
2068 2013-04-07 19:00:09 <scripting> talk to any economist and ask them that question
2069 2013-04-07 19:00:18 <MWNinja_> you can control the market easy enough with a 10 million dollar postition
2070 2013-04-07 19:00:24 <joeykrim> never said i was writing an article or essay?
2071 2013-04-07 19:00:34 <scripting> you don't have to say it
2072 2013-04-07 19:00:39 <MWNinja_> without having to use the all the power in KC
2073 2013-04-07 19:00:41 <scripting> obvious from the questions your asking
2074 2013-04-07 19:00:51 <sipa> skinnkavaj: i consider anything that requires fixed addresses for trust broken
2075 2013-04-07 19:00:59 <Luke-Jr> scripting: please, take the crazy conspiracy theories to another place - it's off topic here
2076 2013-04-07 19:01:15 <scripting> Ok Luke, why are you God?
2077 2013-04-07 19:01:24 <scripting> Are you butterfly labs?
2078 2013-04-07 19:01:25 Anduck has joined
2079 2013-04-07 19:01:40 <scripting> You can solely decide what can and cannot be spoken about here?
2080 2013-04-07 19:01:51 <sipa> form: that's because bitcoind doesn't maintain that (nor should it)
2081 2013-04-07 19:01:52 <scripting> Who gave you that authority?
2082 2013-04-07 19:02:03 copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2083 2013-04-07 19:02:04 <joeykrim> lol .. not sure i follow why asking specific questions mean im writing an article/essay
2084 2013-04-07 19:02:05 * owowo illuminati
2085 2013-04-07 19:02:16 <MWNinja_> dude the room is about bitcoin development not bitcoin tinfoil hattery
2086 2013-04-07 19:02:18 <skinnkavaj> sipa: i agree but i think its a great until we come up with a solution, gavinandresen had some great ideas.. hope you can make that work
2087 2013-04-07 19:02:18 <sipa> scripting: if anything, i agree with Luke-Jr about this: take the conspiracy theories elsewhere
2088 2013-04-07 19:02:24 <scripting> Oh the Illuminati did I really don't care about that
2089 2013-04-07 19:02:36 fydel has joined
2090 2013-04-07 19:02:41 <bwen> I second that.
2091 2013-04-07 19:02:46 <scripting> The Illuminati do not control the world.
2092 2013-04-07 19:02:50 SwedFTP has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
2093 2013-04-07 19:02:55 <skinnkavaj> scripting: we just want to discuss development here, its in our best ideas to further develop bitcoin
2094 2013-04-07 19:03:00 <scripting> Anyone that says they do is the "conspiracy theorist"
2095 2013-04-07 19:03:02 <skinnkavaj> im sure Luke-Jr and you agree about that
2096 2013-04-07 19:03:16 dust-otc has joined
2097 2013-04-07 19:03:19 <skinnkavaj> interest*
2098 2013-04-07 19:03:43 <skinnkavaj> scripting: read this :) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=169558.0
2099 2013-04-07 19:03:51 <skinnkavaj> and give your thoughts
2100 2013-04-07 19:04:10 <scripting> Well guys I've said enough I hope that at least some of you devs will contemplate on what I spoke about.
2101 2013-04-07 19:04:13 BitMagnet has joined
2102 2013-04-07 19:04:29 MarkyRamone has joined
2103 2013-04-07 19:04:37 <scripting> Even if you don't agree with me, I am sure you can agree that its at least something worth thinking about.
2104 2013-04-07 19:05:02 <MWNinja_> skinnkavaj thanks, this is one of the problems I am trying to solve for one of my projects
2105 2013-04-07 19:05:19 SwedFTP has joined
2106 2013-04-07 19:05:23 <form> sipa: so, these websites are ananyzing the whole blockchain itself, to sum-up the balance from a single address?
2107 2013-04-07 19:05:24 zapsoda has joined
2108 2013-04-07 19:05:30 <sipa> form: correct
2109 2013-04-07 19:05:34 <form> ok
2110 2013-04-07 19:05:40 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2111 2013-04-07 19:05:44 <sipa> form: they maintain a full index for every transaction and address
2112 2013-04-07 19:06:01 <form> is there any open software available which does this?
2113 2013-04-07 19:06:11 i2pRelay has joined
2114 2013-04-07 19:06:15 <sipa> abe, afaik, but it suffers from some performance problems
2115 2013-04-07 19:06:29 <form> "abe" ?
2116 2013-04-07 19:06:32 <sipa> abe
2117 2013-04-07 19:06:40 <form> ok
2118 2013-04-07 19:06:55 <sipa> personally i think that anything that requires such an index is a bad idea :)
2119 2013-04-07 19:07:02 <sipa> but opinions differ
2120 2013-04-07 19:07:16 <deadweasel> i'm running bitcoind on a disconnected machine, i want to create wallet for cold storage, is there a manual somewhre?  man pages are helpful, but not for this...
2121 2013-04-07 19:07:38 <MarkyRamone> anyone knows why blockchain.info is stuck at block 230145?
2122 2013-04-07 19:07:46 copumpkin has joined
2123 2013-04-07 19:07:54 Tantadruj has joined
2124 2013-04-07 19:07:56 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2125 2013-04-07 19:08:04 <deadweasel> ;;tslb
2126 2013-04-07 19:08:09 <gribble> Time since last block: 2 hours, 10 minutes, and 4 seconds
2127 2013-04-07 19:08:14 <bwen> deadweasel: I think it'll only be available on bitcoin-qt 0.9, in the mean time there is Armory client that can do cold storage wallets
2128 2013-04-07 19:08:15 <deadweasel> O.o
2129 2013-04-07 19:08:17 <zapsoda> How do you find a bitcoin address from its corresponding private key?
2130 2013-04-07 19:08:31 syxbits has joined
2131 2013-04-07 19:08:33 colintulloch has joined
2132 2013-04-07 19:08:35 BitMagnet has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2133 2013-04-07 19:08:46 <deadweasel> bwen. i thought a full blockchain was req'd for armory to run?
2134 2013-04-07 19:08:52 <sipa> zapsoda: first compute the public key (=EC multiplication with the generation), then hash it, then base58 encode it
2135 2013-04-07 19:08:55 <sipa> deadweasel: it is
2136 2013-04-07 19:09:01 <sipa> deadweasel: though i think it has an offline mode
2137 2013-04-07 19:09:40 Darin has joined
2138 2013-04-07 19:09:43 <bwen> deadweasel: you can install Armory offline. does not required you to be connected to the internet nor have the blockchain to create a wallet
2139 2013-04-07 19:09:45 <zapsoda> Ok, my other question which has been driving me crazy is: is there any simple functions to base58 encode with PHP?
2140 2013-04-07 19:09:56 <bwen> deadweasel: https://bitcoinarmory.com/using-offline-wallets-in-armory/
2141 2013-04-07 19:10:03 <XRPTrader2> why no blocks in 2 hours?
2142 2013-04-07 19:10:09 Cory has joined
2143 2013-04-07 19:10:09 <deadweasel> awesome, i go read up. thx bwen, sipa
2144 2013-04-07 19:10:10 BitMagnet has joined
2145 2013-04-07 19:10:16 <MarkyRamone> block explorer and my bitcoind are at 230160
2146 2013-04-07 19:10:32 parasciidic has joined
2147 2013-04-07 19:10:47 <lianj> XRPTrader2: last 11minutes ago
2148 2013-04-07 19:10:48 GMP has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2149 2013-04-07 19:10:56 ThickAsThieves has joined
2150 2013-04-07 19:11:15 <MarkyRamone> ;;tslb
2151 2013-04-07 19:11:19 <gribble> Time since last block: 2 hours, 13 minutes, and 14 seconds
2152 2013-04-07 19:11:39 <lianj> thats gribbles view
2153 2013-04-07 19:11:52 e-v-o has joined
2154 2013-04-07 19:11:58 <deadweasel> lol. stupid gribble
2155 2013-04-07 19:11:58 ColinT has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2156 2013-04-07 19:12:41 FredEE has joined
2157 2013-04-07 19:13:05 <XRPTrader2> not so lianj https://blockchain.info/
2158 2013-04-07 19:13:16 <e-v-o> Hi code wizards and clever people. Does anyone see value in creating a p2p software that decentralizes bitcoin exchanges? If not to exchange with fiat currencies at least between crypto-currencies. Woudl this even be theoreticaly possible?
2159 2013-04-07 19:13:19 <sipa> XRPTrader2: why do you assume blockchain.info is correct?
2160 2013-04-07 19:13:36 <XRPTrader2> because it usually is
2161 2013-04-07 19:13:42 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2162 2013-04-07 19:13:51 <sipa> XRPTrader2: bad assumption :)
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2166 2013-04-07 19:14:45 <zapsoda> Anyone know if theres a API for blockchain to allow you to import private addresses (not WIF) or if theres any other way to mass add private keys?
2167 2013-04-07 19:14:45 <MarkyRamone> sipa: theres any way to look where is the majority of the network (block height) ?
2168 2013-04-07 19:14:47 ProfMac has joined
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2170 2013-04-07 19:15:30 <sipa> MarkyRamone: no, but you can run your own node :)
2171 2013-04-07 19:15:43 DeaDTerra has joined
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2175 2013-04-07 19:16:51 <Luke-Jr> zapsoda: importprivkey, but usually not a great idea
2176 2013-04-07 19:16:58 dbe is now known as Guest59825
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2180 2013-04-07 19:17:12 <Luke-Jr> also, the software is bitcoind - the blockchain is just a shared log
2181 2013-04-07 19:17:59 <MarkyRamone> sipa:i run a full node at ec2 to import the blockchain into our system but also have a fallback to block chain if we have problems with our bitcoind
2182 2013-04-07 19:19:35 FredEE has joined
2183 2013-04-07 19:19:38 ForceMajeure_ is now known as ForceMajeure
2184 2013-04-07 19:19:46 <lolbee> Luke-Jr: log of?
2185 2013-04-07 19:19:57 <Luke-Jr> lolbee: every transaction ever
2186 2013-04-07 19:20:11 <Luke-Jr> well
2187 2013-04-07 19:20:17 <Luke-Jr> using the blockchain protocol <.<
2188 2013-04-07 19:20:22 Cryo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2189 2013-04-07 19:20:38 <lolbee> can I transact using other protocols?
2190 2013-04-07 19:20:52 ielo has joined
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2192 2013-04-07 19:21:40 <sipa> lolbee: paypal certainly has some API ;)
2193 2013-04-07 19:21:43 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2194 2013-04-07 19:21:59 <Luke-Jr> lolbee: yes, but most are centralized
2195 2013-04-07 19:22:08 <Luke-Jr> for example, MtGox has an internal interface
2196 2013-04-07 19:22:08 <lolbee> sipa: for bitcoins?
2197 2013-04-07 19:22:23 <sipa> lolbee: no(t yet) :p
2198 2013-04-07 19:22:28 i2pRelay has joined
2199 2013-04-07 19:22:37 a_meteor has joined
2200 2013-04-07 19:22:46 <lolbee> Luke-Jr: I dont trust fiat bitcoins
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2210 2013-04-07 19:26:34 <MWNinja_> perhaps the point of sale network could contract with some pools to give its transactions enough priority that they could be trusted with 0 confirms
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2220 2013-04-07 19:30:34 <zapsoda> lupine,  i think importprivkey would work but im importing 5.6k private keys i  dont think it will let me do that :p
2221 2013-04-07 19:30:44 <zapsoda> sorry that was for Luke-Jr
2222 2013-04-07 19:30:53 zaxscd has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2223 2013-04-07 19:30:57 <Luke-Jr> zapsoda: ..why?
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2225 2013-04-07 19:31:11 zrad has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2226 2013-04-07 19:31:47 <zapsoda> Its a long story (ill explain if you want) but is there any way i could import them into a wallet? probabbly need it to be on my computer since no web wallet would llet me do that :p
2227 2013-04-07 19:32:20 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
2228 2013-04-07 19:32:24 <Luke-Jr> I suggest you give a summary, for your own security :P
2229 2013-04-07 19:32:44 <Luke-Jr> bitcoind 0.8.1 should have a rescan option to importprivkey - you can set that to false to skip rescan
2230 2013-04-07 19:32:58 <Luke-Jr> if they're keys that have been used, restart with -rescan after all done
2231 2013-04-07 19:33:26 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2232 2013-04-07 19:33:35 <Luke-Jr> but again, importprivkey can be a security risk
2233 2013-04-07 19:33:44 manet has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2234 2013-04-07 19:33:56 <sipa> Luke-Jr: 0.8.2
2235 2013-04-07 19:34:06 manet has joined
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2237 2013-04-07 19:34:33 <Luke-Jr> zapsoda: you definitely don't want to import those to a real wallet
2238 2013-04-07 19:34:46 manet has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2239 2013-04-07 19:34:50 <Luke-Jr> zapsoda: create a temporary one, import, rescan, and send them to a real address
2240 2013-04-07 19:34:54 <Luke-Jr> then destroy that wallet
2241 2013-04-07 19:35:00 <zapsoda> Thats my plan
2242 2013-04-07 19:35:28 <zapsoda> But i dont want to take the time to do download the block chain
2243 2013-04-07 19:35:38 <zapsoda> Maybe i can make a batch script to import with electrum?
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2248 2013-04-07 19:38:02 <wallet42> the number of all unspent outputs is  nbOutput  - nbInputs ?
2249 2013-04-07 19:38:26 i2pRelay has joined
2250 2013-04-07 19:39:09 <sipa> wallet42: except the inputs of coinbases don't consume anything, so if you don't count those as inputs, indeed
2251 2013-04-07 19:39:21 manet has joined
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2253 2013-04-07 19:40:55 <deadweasel> any way to tell bitcoin-qt where to store it's data on ubuntu?
2254 2013-04-07 19:41:01 <deadweasel> its*
2255 2013-04-07 19:41:20 Hawkix has joined
2256 2013-04-07 19:41:21 <lianj> deadweasel: -datadir=
2257 2013-04-07 19:41:21 <wumpus> -datadir=<path>
2258 2013-04-07 19:41:22 <sipa> -datadir=
2259 2013-04-07 19:41:25 <wumpus> lol
2260 2013-04-07 19:41:32 <grouver> Hello. I just downloaded Bitcoin to my lubuntu machine. Now I try to launch bitcoin-qt by executing the bitcoin-qt file.  But it doesn't start, nothing is happening. Does anyone know what this might could be?
2261 2013-04-07 19:41:34 <deadweasel> :D  thanks!
2262 2013-04-07 19:42:22 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2263 2013-04-07 19:42:31 Davincij15 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2264 2013-04-07 19:42:34 <wumpus> very hard to say  if *nothing* is happening grouver
2265 2013-04-07 19:42:41 <deadweasel> do i do that with the apt-get install command?
2266 2013-04-07 19:42:45 <grouver> I wanted to run bitcoind in the terminal to see what was going on. But I tried to execute the bitcoin deamon. I got the response I needed to download bitcoind first.
2267 2013-04-07 19:43:06 <sipa> deadweasel: no it's just a command-line option to bitcoin-qt
2268 2013-04-07 19:43:25 <deadweasel> thought so, so dont need to specify install loc?
2269 2013-04-07 19:43:25 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2270 2013-04-07 19:43:33 <sipa> deadweasel: of course not
2271 2013-04-07 19:43:40 <grouver> wumpus, i dont even see a bitcoin proces running in my task manager.
2272 2013-04-07 19:43:42 <zapsoda> So any ideas how i can batch import private keys or how i can batch convert private keys to bitcoins addresses (that dont have to be imported)
2273 2013-04-07 19:43:52 <deadweasel> thx sipa
2274 2013-04-07 19:43:55 <wumpus> grouver: are you starting it from the terminal? if not, try that, so you can see any error output
2275 2013-04-07 19:44:04 MSH1UP has joined
2276 2013-04-07 19:44:16 <sipa> zapsoda: if you use git head, you can use importprivkey <key> false, which will cause it to not rescan
2277 2013-04-07 19:44:50 <zapsoda> git head?
2278 2013-04-07 19:45:05 zooko has joined
2279 2013-04-07 19:45:21 <zapsoda> Newest version of client?
2280 2013-04-07 19:45:49 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2281 2013-04-07 19:46:05 <sipa> zapsoda: build from source, from git
2282 2013-04-07 19:46:09 <sipa> zapsoda: not yet released
2283 2013-04-07 19:46:20 i2pRelay has joined
2284 2013-04-07 19:46:20 <deadweasel> what would be a good command to start qt detached from term, specifying datadir?  bitcoin-qt setsid -datadir=/my/path/
2285 2013-04-07 19:46:22 <wumpus> 0.8.1 doesn't have rescan=false yet?
2286 2013-04-07 19:46:25 halfie has joined
2287 2013-04-07 19:46:48 <sipa> oh, wait 0.8.1 has that already
2288 2013-04-07 19:46:56 <zapsoda> I cant do that, I feel like there shoudl be a simple function to convert private key to its corresponding address? I dont want ot download blockchain :p
2289 2013-04-07 19:46:59 gagecolton has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2290 2013-04-07 19:47:02 <halfie> I am running 0.8.1-beta. Which file format does the wallet use? BDB or leveldb?
2291 2013-04-07 19:47:07 <lupine> the block chain index is leveldb, the wallet is still bdb for now.
2292 2013-04-07 19:47:08 <sipa> halfie: BDB
2293 2013-04-07 19:47:21 <halfie> so when did the shift to new leveldb began?
2294 2013-04-07 19:47:21 <lupine> apparently :)
2295 2013-04-07 19:47:26 <sipa> halfie: 0.8
2296 2013-04-07 19:47:26 tmsk has quit (Quit: tmsk)
2297 2013-04-07 19:47:28 tcatm has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2298 2013-04-07 19:47:29 <halfie> oh I see
2299 2013-04-07 19:47:30 <deadweasel> zapsoda: nobody does, but it's a necessary evil.. :)
2300 2013-04-07 19:47:33 <wumpus> zapsoda: there's some python scripts that can do that, for example gavin's bitcointools should have code for it
2301 2013-04-07 19:47:44 tcatm has joined
2302 2013-04-07 19:47:45 <wumpus> zapsoda: or pywallet, which is based on that
2303 2013-04-07 19:48:02 <zapsoda> Thanks
2304 2013-04-07 19:48:10 <halfie> I see only one key "main" in the wallet file. Where is the data?
2305 2013-04-07 19:48:18 <sipa> halfie: ?
2306 2013-04-07 19:48:31 <deadweasel> what would be a good command to start qt detached from term, specifying datadir? this:   bitcoin-qt setsid -datadir=/my/path/    ???
2307 2013-04-07 19:48:37 <halfie> also, are you guys using BDB's default encryption bits?
2308 2013-04-07 19:48:44 <deadweasel> or use nohup?
2309 2013-04-07 19:48:49 <sipa> halfie: no, bitcoin uses its own encryption
2310 2013-04-07 19:48:54 BR-afk is now known as Blackreign
2311 2013-04-07 19:48:56 <sipa> halfie: which only encrypts private keys
2312 2013-04-07 19:49:00 <sipa> AES128-CBC
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2314 2013-04-07 19:49:04 <sipa> eh, AES256-CBC
2315 2013-04-07 19:49:25 <wumpus> deadweasel: nohup will do it
2316 2013-04-07 19:49:28 <sipa> deadweasel: you mean setsid bitcoin-qt -datadir=...
2317 2013-04-07 19:49:30 <deadweasel> thx
2318 2013-04-07 19:49:30 <sipa> ?
2319 2013-04-07 19:49:37 <halfie> I see, I am trying to parse wallet files to get salt, iterations etc but I don't see how it is done though
2320 2013-04-07 19:49:40 <halfie> any tips?
2321 2013-04-07 19:49:49 <deadweasel> yes, thx sipa
2322 2013-04-07 19:49:52 <sipa> halfie: look for the ckey entries
2323 2013-04-07 19:50:08 <sipa> halfie: and check walletdb.cpp for the encoding format
2324 2013-04-07 19:50:25 <halfie> sipa, thanks! Can I use Python library to parse wallet files?
2325 2013-04-07 19:50:33 <sipa> oh, salt and iterations are in mkey (masterkey) record
2326 2013-04-07 19:50:41 <sipa> halfie: probably, but i can't help you with that
2327 2013-04-07 19:50:52 <halfie> sure, I can move to C
2328 2013-04-07 19:50:52 <grouver> wumpus, it says: "bitcoin-qt" not found if i launch it from the terminal.
2329 2013-04-07 19:51:03 <sipa> grouver: then how are you starting it now?
2330 2013-04-07 19:51:04 <halfie> I meant, no problem, I can move to C
2331 2013-04-07 19:51:19 Hawkix has left ()
2332 2013-04-07 19:51:34 <sipa> halfie: easiest is probably using db4.8_dump to convert the file to a list of key-value pair in hex, and parsing those
2333 2013-04-07 19:51:34 <grouver> sipa, its not launching. :p
2334 2013-04-07 19:51:46 <wumpus> halfie: as I said a few messages back, pywallet or bitcointools
2335 2013-04-07 19:51:49 <sipa> grouver: well if it's not found that explains why it doesn't start
2336 2013-04-07 19:51:52 <halfie> sipa, thats sounds awesome! trying that
2337 2013-04-07 19:51:55 wizkid057 has quit (Quit: I shall return, hopefully!)
2338 2013-04-07 19:52:01 <grouver> sipa, but the bitcoin-qt file is right there.
2339 2013-04-07 19:52:05 <halfie> wumpus, ohh they exist :) cool . checking them out
2340 2013-04-07 19:52:09 <sipa> grouver: use ./bitcoin-qt
2341 2013-04-07 19:52:13 <grouver> sipa, and if i want toe execute it, nothing happens.
2342 2013-04-07 19:52:14 <sipa> if it's in the current directly
2343 2013-04-07 19:52:35 <jouke> grouver: did you unpack the archive?
2344 2013-04-07 19:52:38 <sipa> without dirname it will look in $PATH, so only in /bin /usr/bin .. typically
2345 2013-04-07 19:52:59 <grouver> sipa: ./bitcoin-qt: error while loading shared libraries: libQtGui.so.4: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
2346 2013-04-07 19:53:00 <halfie> wumpus, I think I owe you lot of beer :D
2347 2013-04-07 19:53:07 <sipa> grouver: how did you install it?
2348 2013-04-07 19:53:07 <grouver> jouke, yes i did.
2349 2013-04-07 19:53:10 <wumpus> :D
2350 2013-04-07 19:53:23 <halfie> https://github.com/jackjack-jj/pywallet <== this seems to be the master repository
2351 2013-04-07 19:53:36 <wumpus> yes, jackjack wrote it
2352 2013-04-07 19:53:37 <sipa> grouver: if you're on ubuntu you probably want to use the PPA instead of just manually putting the binary somewhere, as that will install the dependencies too
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2354 2013-04-07 19:54:21 i2pRelay has joined
2355 2013-04-07 19:54:24 <sipa> grouver: alternatively, install libqtgui4
2356 2013-04-07 19:54:32 <grouver> sipa, jouke, wumpus,   nvm. its fixed. iam stupid lol.
2357 2013-04-07 19:54:49 <sipa> what fixed it?
2358 2013-04-07 19:54:56 <grouver> reading the readme file.
2359 2013-04-07 19:55:13 <wumpus> they're called readme for a good reason :-)
2360 2013-04-07 19:55:34 <grouver> i guess my whole hangover isnt over yet. :p
2361 2013-04-07 19:55:58 Zephirum_ has joined
2362 2013-04-07 19:56:03 <halfie> my wallet file is encrypted but "ckey" is empty. I am trying to locate salt, iteration count and so on.
2363 2013-04-07 19:56:08 <grouver> thanks sipa, jouke, wumps. :)
2364 2013-04-07 19:56:12 <halfie> defaultkey is the salt?
2365 2013-04-07 19:56:13 <Zephirum_> Does anyone know what's currently going on in the block chain?  blockexplorer.com shows a current height of 230166, but blockchain.info appears stuck at 230145
2366 2013-04-07 19:56:18 grouver has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2367 2013-04-07 19:56:46 <sipa> Zephirum_: b.i is broken
2368 2013-04-07 19:56:56 <halfie> ok, mkey seems to be interesting
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2372 2013-04-07 20:00:30 <Zephirum_> sipa: thanks!
2373 2013-04-07 20:00:51 Zephirum_ has quit (Client Quit)
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2383 2013-04-07 20:08:46 <deadweasel> ok, i've got a watch only copy online, qt is syncing, i've got a paper backup.... now just encrypt some partions on usb and copy wallet.dat to several usbs?
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2402 2013-04-07 20:22:07 <zapsoda> Ok, Really need a fast way to convert this list of private keys into a list of bitcoin addresses or a way to quickly import all the public keys
2403 2013-04-07 20:22:11 kalleboo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2404 2013-04-07 20:22:11 sebicas has joined
2405 2013-04-07 20:22:21 <zapsoda> I dont have Bitcoin-qt and the block chain will take foreever
2406 2013-04-07 20:22:34 enquirer2 has joined
2407 2013-04-07 20:23:05 <lianj> zapsoda: what are to trying?
2408 2013-04-07 20:23:29 <zapsoda> What?
2409 2013-04-07 20:23:44 enquirer has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2410 2013-04-07 20:23:52 <lianj> "fast way to convert this list of private keys into a list of bitcoin addresses"
2411 2013-04-07 20:24:25 <sipa> zapsoda: what hardware are you on that it would take forever?
2412 2013-04-07 20:25:06 <zapsoda> It would take forever to download the blockchain
2413 2013-04-07 20:25:09 <zapsoda> I have electrum
2414 2013-04-07 20:25:16 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2415 2013-04-07 20:25:27 <sipa> ok, what network connection are you on that it would take forever?
2416 2013-04-07 20:25:27 <zapsoda> I just know no way to convert the list or import them
2417 2013-04-07 20:25:41 <zapsoda> Idk like 3gb/s why?
2418 2013-04-07 20:25:42 FredEE has joined
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2420 2013-04-07 20:25:59 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2421 2013-04-07 20:26:04 <sipa> and CPU/memory/disk?
2422 2013-04-07 20:26:10 <wumpus> zapsoda: so did you look at pywallet?
2423 2013-04-07 20:26:50 <zapsoda> I did wumpus but i didnt find a way to get it to work for me :/
2424 2013-04-07 20:27:00 i2pRelay has joined
2425 2013-04-07 20:27:06 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
2426 2013-04-07 20:27:07 <zapsoda> sipa, its not a resource problum, Its not knowing what command/program to use
2427 2013-04-07 20:27:09 DeaDTerra has quit ()
2428 2013-04-07 20:27:11 <wumpus> it has code to do private key -> public key
2429 2013-04-07 20:27:24 <sipa> zapsoda: unless you are running on a eeepc or a rasberry pi, or a VPS with very slow I/O, i'm sure you could have synced the blockchain by now with bitcoind
2430 2013-04-07 20:27:43 <zapsoda> Ive been downloading it since start
2431 2013-04-07 20:27:51 <zapsoda> about half done
2432 2013-04-07 20:28:01 <zapsoda> wumpus,  i didnt see that ill check it owut again
2433 2013-04-07 20:28:01 <wumpus> and it can also import keys into a wallet.dat file
2434 2013-04-07 20:28:03 stretchwarren has joined
2435 2013-04-07 20:28:10 <sipa> run with -dbcache=500 -connect=bitcoin.sipa.be -dns
2436 2013-04-07 20:28:23 <zapsoda> What?
2437 2013-04-07 20:28:37 <sipa> that will speed up first sync a lot
2438 2013-04-07 20:29:19 <zapsoda> Kk, 1 sec
2439 2013-04-07 20:29:59 <sipa> it will use 500 MiB extra RAM though... you may want to tweak based on your hardware's memory
2440 2013-04-07 20:31:54 form has left ()
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2446 2013-04-07 20:35:09 <halfie> pywallet uses some serious crypto, it will be hard to write everything in C for doing same crypto operations.
2447 2013-04-07 20:35:18 qweltyoluiop is now known as qwertyoruiop
2448 2013-04-07 20:36:26 <wallet42> sipa: i got an i7 8 core, 64 GB  server 1 Gbit conn, whats the fastest way to catch up?
2449 2013-04-07 20:36:53 <redeeman> halfie, there are some decent c/c++ crypto libraries out there...
2450 2013-04-07 20:36:57 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
2451 2013-04-07 20:37:04 <james4k> how does blockchain.info estimate btc transferred in a transaction?
2452 2013-04-07 20:37:28 <sipa> wallet42: set -dbcache to some huge number (2000?), and connect to a fast peer directly (-xonnect)
2453 2013-04-07 20:37:36 zooko has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2454 2013-04-07 20:37:36 <wumpus> halfie: so just use openssl, don't roll your own crypto
2455 2013-04-07 20:37:54 <redeeman> openssl is kinda fucked :|
2456 2013-04-07 20:37:54 donpdonp has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5)
2457 2013-04-07 20:38:25 <wallet42> https://blockchain.info/de/hub-nodes?
2458 2013-04-07 20:38:47 <zapsoda> Ok, Still looking for ways to import these private keys or to convert them to addresses
2459 2013-04-07 20:39:09 jtimon has joined
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2461 2013-04-07 20:39:35 <lianj> zapsoda: why or, either import of convert them to addresses
2462 2013-04-07 20:39:53 <lianj> s/of/or/
2463 2013-04-07 20:40:05 <gmaxwell> if you only want the addresses. you don't need a blockchain for that.
2464 2013-04-07 20:40:12 viperhr has joined
2465 2013-04-07 20:40:17 HM has quit ()
2466 2013-04-07 20:40:22 <gmaxwell> startup bitcoind with -connect=0.0.0.0 and then just import them.
2467 2013-04-07 20:40:23 <zapsoda> Because if i convert to address i can do a cntrl+F to find the address im looking for and import that one and send the BTC out
2468 2013-04-07 20:40:35 <zapsoda> Ill try that
2469 2013-04-07 20:40:46 <zapsoda> Wait
2470 2013-04-07 20:40:51 <zapsoda> What do you mean just import them?
2471 2013-04-07 20:41:24 <sipa> importprivkey
2472 2013-04-07 20:41:32 <sipa> i thought you wanted to spend them
2473 2013-04-07 20:41:45 <sipa> (which needs syncing)
2474 2013-04-07 20:41:49 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
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2479 2013-04-07 20:43:11 <wallet42> zomg
2480 2013-04-07 20:43:14 <wallet42> soo much faster :)
2481 2013-04-07 20:43:19 <wallet42> ty sipa
2482 2013-04-07 20:43:23 <gdoteof> anyone know of any scripts/code for bruteforcing a bitcoin-qt encrypted wallet with constraints?
2483 2013-04-07 20:43:40 enikanorov has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2484 2013-04-07 20:43:49 <gdoteof> i sent 12.22 bitcoins to my buddy for his wedding (on 12/22) back in december.. a few days before that
2485 2013-04-07 20:44:02 <gdoteof> he didn't really understand what he was getting.. thinking it was 12 dollars in funny money
2486 2013-04-07 20:44:09 <gdoteof> i made him encrypt his wallet
2487 2013-04-07 20:44:24 * zapsoda is trying to setup bitcoind on windows
2488 2013-04-07 20:44:26 <gdoteof> and well.. i didn't do a good job of makin gsure he would remember his password
2489 2013-04-07 20:44:41 * lianj zapsoda i would offer some help (tool to generate the addresses and even created txs without the blockchain in sync) for some fee :)
2490 2013-04-07 20:45:19 <zapsoda> What fee? Im only getting 2$ for this... so i doubt youll want to
2491 2013-04-07 20:45:20 <gdoteof> i watched him encrypt so i know more or less how long the pw was.. like 12 chars and i think we can come up with some contraints beyond that
2492 2013-04-07 20:45:22 <sipa> zapsoda: i'm not following anymore; what is the problem exactly you're trying to solve?
2493 2013-04-07 20:45:37 <lianj> zapsoda: thats true
2494 2013-04-07 20:45:43 <zapsoda> Ok, Really need a fast way to convert this list of private keys into a list of bitcoin addresses or a way to quickly import all the public keys
2495 2013-04-07 20:45:49 <zapsoda> sipa, ^
2496 2013-04-07 20:45:59 <james4k> given a transaction, how do you identify if an output is change?
2497 2013-04-07 20:46:10 <lianj> james4k: you cant
2498 2013-04-07 20:46:19 <sipa> zapsoda: and importprivkey <key> false is not good enough?
2499 2013-04-07 20:46:29 <wallet42> blockchain.info always uses the small one i think
2500 2013-04-07 20:46:35 <james4k> lianj: oh, hmm ok
2501 2013-04-07 20:46:51 <zapsoda> sipa,  it is
2502 2013-04-07 20:46:59 <zapsoda> But i dont have the blockchain yet
2503 2013-04-07 20:47:04 <wallet42> unless the change goes back
2504 2013-04-07 20:47:11 <sipa> zapsoda: irrelevant if you just need the addresses
2505 2013-04-07 20:47:24 <sipa> zapsoda: you can import keys regardless
2506 2013-04-07 20:48:03 <zapsoda> But i have 5.6k private keys (probably should have mentioned that first) how would i automate the importing of them? (i know nto to do this on a wallet with my money in it)
2507 2013-04-07 20:48:04 <james4k> so we don't even really know how much money btc around i guess
2508 2013-04-07 20:48:10 <james4k> -money
2509 2013-04-07 20:48:13 phish- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2510 2013-04-07 20:48:16 <wallet42> is it safe to generate an own prvt key by letting your cat type 256 0/1 values?
2511 2013-04-07 20:48:17 <james4k> btc moves around*
2512 2013-04-07 20:48:27 <gdoteof> zapsoda: i think pywallet will allow you to do this if you have them/can get them into a json file
2513 2013-04-07 20:48:42 qwertyoruiop is now known as zz_qwertyoruiop
2514 2013-04-07 20:48:54 wizkid057 has joined
2515 2013-04-07 20:49:07 <james4k> ugh, let me restate that: so we don't really know how much btc actually moves around
2516 2013-04-07 20:49:11 <gdoteof> zapsoda: otherwise you could write a bash script that uses impotprivkey over and over
2517 2013-04-07 20:49:21 toffoo has joined
2518 2013-04-07 20:49:23 phish has joined
2519 2013-04-07 20:49:29 <zapsoda> Im thniking thats what ill need
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2521 2013-04-07 20:49:44 <wallet42> isnt there a hardlimit of 200 addresses in the client?
2522 2013-04-07 20:49:53 <sipa> no
2523 2013-04-07 20:50:06 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2524 2013-04-07 20:50:10 <sipa> people run wallets with 10000s of addresses
2525 2013-04-07 20:50:27 coqui33 has joined
2526 2013-04-07 20:50:29 <_W_> wallet42: you're probably thinking of pre-generated addresses
2527 2013-04-07 20:50:42 i2pRelay has joined
2528 2013-04-07 20:50:47 <_W_> (though I don't know if this is the same as it was last time I looked into it)
2529 2013-04-07 20:50:53 <wallet42> yes and i think i confused with blockchain.info online wallet
2530 2013-04-07 20:51:09 <wallet42> they have a 200 limit
2531 2013-04-07 20:51:38 <deadweasel> ok, got wallet.dat in encrypted volume on usb, got watch only copy in online armory (qt syncing in background), now all i have to is send btc..  should i start with .01 sent, and make sure i can sign it offline as a test?
2532 2013-04-07 20:51:38 <wallet42> but i think thats due to in browser encryption limitation
2533 2013-04-07 20:52:18 <sipa> deadweasel: sounds like a good idea to test with a small amount first :)
2534 2013-04-07 20:52:49 <wallet42> how is 1 million satoshis a small amount :p
2535 2013-04-07 20:53:47 <wallet42> sipa: thx to your dbcache tip my sync completet in under a few minutes :))
2536 2013-04-07 20:54:01 <zapsoda> gdoteof, i got my wallet to json
2537 2013-04-07 20:54:05 <zapsoda> Now what? :p
2538 2013-04-07 20:54:21 symbol has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2539 2013-04-07 20:54:30 coqui33 has quit (Quit: Bye)
2540 2013-04-07 20:55:03 <sipa> wallet42: a few minutes sounds *very* fast
2541 2013-04-07 20:55:10 macbook-air has joined
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2543 2013-04-07 20:56:50 <zapsoda> Still looking for ideas lol
2544 2013-04-07 20:56:54 macbook-air has left ()
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2546 2013-04-07 20:58:15 <deadweasel> $0.32 is cheap to verify cold storage..  thx sipa!
2547 2013-04-07 20:58:40 i2pRelay has joined
2548 2013-04-07 20:59:19 <deadweasel> sipa, it wont show in armory until qt is fully synced, i assume?
2549 2013-04-07 21:00:20 <richcollins> deadweasel: Why encrypted volume if wallet is already encrypted?
2550 2013-04-07 21:00:23 <zapsoda> gdoteof, still there?
2551 2013-04-07 21:00:31 <deadweasel> why not?
2552 2013-04-07 21:00:53 <deadweasel> two passwords..
2553 2013-04-07 21:01:01 <richcollins> Another pw to remember
2554 2013-04-07 21:01:02 <deadweasel> o, overkill mebbe
2555 2013-04-07 21:01:04 <richcollins> Is it d
2556 2013-04-07 21:01:15 <richcollins> Easy to backup a volume?
2557 2013-04-07 21:01:56 <deadweasel> no...  whatever, too much security is the side i'd like to err on.  ya know?
2558 2013-04-07 21:02:29 <richcollins> I was just going to encrypt wallet and send to friends for backup
2559 2013-04-07 21:02:49 <deadweasel> plus i just busted my cold storage cherry..
2560 2013-04-07 21:02:50 <richcollins> Does encrypted wallet only protect private keys?
2561 2013-04-07 21:03:05 <sipa> richcollins: indeed
2562 2013-04-07 21:03:07 <richcollins> Or does it hide public keys as well?
2563 2013-04-07 21:03:15 <deadweasel> ah, i also had a pdf of the paper copy which is not encrypted.
2564 2013-04-07 21:03:16 <sipa> just private keys
2565 2013-04-07 21:03:44 <deadweasel> also written out pen/paper in fire safe
2566 2013-04-07 21:03:51 <richcollins> Ah so that's a good reason to encrypt wallet file as well
2567 2013-04-07 21:04:29 <richcollins> Are there any utilities that dump public keys from encrypted wallets?
2568 2013-04-07 21:04:34 MJR__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2569 2013-04-07 21:04:38 <deadweasel> gonna use it as a priv document safe
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2581 2013-04-07 21:13:42 <bwen> am I reading this wrong https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Raw_Transactions
2582 2013-04-07 21:13:50 <bwen> Third optional argument is an array of base58-encoded private keys
2583 2013-04-07 21:13:56 <bwen> isnt the second argument?
2584 2013-04-07 21:14:09 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2585 2013-04-07 21:14:11 <bwen> signrawtransaction
2586 2013-04-07 21:14:40 i2pRelay has joined
2587 2013-04-07 21:15:19 <Tril> bwen: first argument is [] of inputs, second is a {} of outputs
2588 2013-04-07 21:15:52 <Tril> oh, sign, nevermind.
2589 2013-04-07 21:16:27 daveluke has joined
2590 2013-04-07 21:16:35 <Tril> bwen: looks correct, if you want third without second you set second to null from my reading.
2591 2013-04-07 21:17:29 <bwen> I see 3 groups of  [] [] []
2592 2013-04-07 21:17:32 <bwen> not four...
2593 2013-04-07 21:17:42 BlackPrapor has joined
2594 2013-04-07 21:18:19 kalleboo has joined
2595 2013-04-07 21:18:40 <Tril> bwen: there's a required first argument <hex string> before those?
2596 2013-04-07 21:18:51 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2597 2013-04-07 21:18:54 <bwen> though that was the return...
2598 2013-04-07 21:18:55 <bwen> :p
2599 2013-04-07 21:19:19 safra has joined
2600 2013-04-07 21:19:28 <Tril> bwen: no you have to start with createrawtransaction and then copy the result in.. I wish bitcoind RPC had composition.
2601 2013-04-07 21:19:32 <BlackPrapor> Hello guys, please check this idea of protecting bitcoin wallet, and get notified of any unauthorised transactions http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1bupy9/problem_bitcoin_is_not_idiotproof/c9af4bx
2602 2013-04-07 21:19:33 <bwen> makes sense... now.. I must be still half a sleep
2603 2013-04-07 21:19:34 <bwen> :p
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2626 2013-04-07 21:29:09 <dust-otc> are there gpg sigs or hashes of the binaries on bitcoin.org anywhere?
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2631 2013-04-07 21:31:17 <gmaxwell> dust-otc: they're in the same directory as the binaries on the download pages.
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2633 2013-04-07 21:31:39 <etotheipi__> dust-otc: http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.1/
2634 2013-04-07 21:31:47 <dust-otc> ah -.-
2635 2013-04-07 21:32:26 <sipa> and the results of the gitian deterministic build are also signed: https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs/tree/master/0.8.1
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2646 2013-04-07 21:41:47 <Luke-Jr> dust-otc: bitcoin.org is just a gateway, Bitcoin-Qt/bitcoind are on github/sourceforge
2647 2013-04-07 21:42:13 <Luke-Jr> sipa: do we have a way to verify the binaries on SF are from gitian unchanged yet?
2648 2013-04-07 21:42:28 <Luke-Jr> the 0.8.x ones, I mean, with the OS-specific sigs
2649 2013-04-07 21:42:49 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
2650 2013-04-07 21:43:02 <sipa> Luke-Jr: no idea if there is a tool to strip the sigs
2651 2013-04-07 21:43:30 leprosys has joined
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2653 2013-04-07 21:44:37 <gmaxwell> uh. it's kinda troubling that we've had no one sound alarms that they aren't the same.
2654 2013-04-07 21:45:16 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2655 2013-04-07 21:45:24 <sipa> gmaxwell: would you have expected that?
2656 2013-04-07 21:45:45 <sipa> given that there are ~3 people in the world who still do gitian builds?
2657 2013-04-07 21:45:58 GordonG3kko has joined
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2660 2013-04-07 21:46:24 <gmaxwell> sipa: forget doing the builds, just checking that the ones on the site agree.
2661 2013-04-07 21:46:55 i2pRelay has joined
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2663 2013-04-07 21:48:06 <sipa> gmaxwell: sure, the necessary degree of involvedness(?) is certainly higher for doing builds, but i think it shows how many people really care about it
2664 2013-04-07 21:48:10 <sipa> (or know?)
2665 2013-04-07 21:48:40 <wallet42> FYI: i just started a brand new node on an i7 8 core: ./bitcoind -dbcache=2000 -connect=(same datacenter)
2666 2013-04-07 21:49:02 <wallet42> it took exactly 50 minutes to catch up to 230 000
2667 2013-04-07 21:49:14 <wallet42> CPU time 1h10m
2668 2013-04-07 21:49:27 <wallet42> average load 4.15 4.67 3.35
2669 2013-04-07 21:51:01 <sipa> wallet42: sounds reasonable
2670 2013-04-07 21:51:11 <wallet42> IMO: there should really be an option for endusers in bitcoin-qt to use a high dbcache for catchup
2671 2013-04-07 21:51:31 sanchaz has joined
2672 2013-04-07 21:52:01 <sipa> agree
2673 2013-04-07 21:52:08 <sipa> but i'm no GUI coder :)
2674 2013-04-07 21:52:27 <wallet42> you can tell so. to let his computer calculate for 2 hours and then be "in the bitcoin network"
2675 2013-04-07 21:52:59 <wallet42> when i downloaded it for my desktop at first i waited like 2 days
2676 2013-04-07 21:53:20 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2282 (comment at bottom)
2677 2013-04-07 21:53:35 <wallet42> if we want less electrum clients and more original clients this should be implemented
2678 2013-04-07 21:54:20 <diki> Anyone willing to update this article https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Technical_background_of_Bitcoin_addresses and add information about compressed public keys?
2679 2013-04-07 21:54:21 <gmaxwell> wallet42: 2 days vs 2 hours has nothing to do with dbcache though— that difference is a mixture of 0.8 making it an order of magnitude faster and your manual peer selection.
2680 2013-04-07 21:54:21 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2681 2013-04-07 21:54:43 <sipa> indeed, it's maybe the difference between 1 and 3 hours
2682 2013-04-07 21:54:57 i2pRelay has joined
2683 2013-04-07 21:54:58 <sipa> but if it takes a day, you're just suffering from bad peer selection
2684 2013-04-07 21:54:58 <gmaxwell> sipa: wrt valgrind, I only get that lost key iff it runs long enough to have recieved (several?) blocks from the network.
2685 2013-04-07 21:55:01 <wallet42> 2 days was 0.8 client
2686 2013-04-07 21:55:09 <wallet42> but on a small laptop tough
2687 2013-04-07 21:55:14 <gmaxwell> wallet42: then you suffered from bad peer selection.
2688 2013-04-07 21:55:18 <sipa> yes, it's certainly possible that it takes that long
2689 2013-04-07 21:55:24 <sipa> but that has nothing to do with -dbcache :)
2690 2013-04-07 21:55:48 <HM> interesting
2691 2013-04-07 21:55:59 <HM> mozilla adding payment provider neutral payment API to FirefoxOS
2692 2013-04-07 21:56:34 normanrichards has quit ()
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2695 2013-04-07 21:59:30 malaimo has quit (Changing host)
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2697 2013-04-07 22:00:11 <HM> https://wiki.mozilla.org/WebAPI/WebPayment
2698 2013-04-07 22:00:48 xenesis has joined
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2707 2013-04-07 22:07:34 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: have you ever thought about creating a subreddit for bitcoindevelopment?
2708 2013-04-07 22:07:44 <skinnkavaj> reddit is such a great system with upvotes
2709 2013-04-07 22:08:03 <skinnkavaj> much better than bitcointalk
2710 2013-04-07 22:08:08 <skinnkavaj> because of that
2711 2013-04-07 22:08:15 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
2712 2013-04-07 22:08:35 <skinnkavaj> i dont know how you developers are communicating, but i can understand it easy gets messy
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2714 2013-04-07 22:09:16 plains has joined
2715 2013-04-07 22:09:21 <bwen> skinnkavaj: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
2716 2013-04-07 22:09:24 <bwen> :P
2717 2013-04-07 22:10:06 <skinnkavaj> bwen: i don't even bother reading that, think its kinda messy for non technial retards like me
2718 2013-04-07 22:10:23 <bwen> well thats how dev communicate
2719 2013-04-07 22:10:26 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2720 2013-04-07 22:10:44 <midnightmagic> it would kind of suck if reddit were in control of the forum.
2721 2013-04-07 22:10:51 xenesis has quit (Quit: xenesis)
2722 2013-04-07 22:10:51 <gmaxwell> "upvoting" must, then, be how 'non technial retards' communicate. :P
2723 2013-04-07 22:10:58 <skinnkavaj> haha
2724 2013-04-07 22:11:01 <sipa> skinnkavaj: to be honest, i liked reading the bitcoin reddit before the huge price increase started
2725 2013-04-07 22:11:02 i2pRelay has joined
2726 2013-04-07 22:11:20 <sipa> it was often about technical issues, users explaining things to eachother, ...
2727 2013-04-07 22:11:25 <skinnkavaj> sipa: yeah i love reddits system, its so much better than the typical forums out there
2728 2013-04-07 22:11:28 <sipa> somehow topics changed now
2729 2013-04-07 22:11:30 <skinnkavaj> its so hard fo sort out good post
2730 2013-04-07 22:11:34 <skinnkavaj> in traditional forums
2731 2013-04-07 22:11:36 <skinnkavaj> like bitcointalk
2732 2013-04-07 22:11:44 <licnep> i doubt reddit would be the best option to organize development, reddit is news-oriented
2733 2013-04-07 22:11:46 hyperjacker has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2734 2013-04-07 22:11:57 <sipa> oh not for development
2735 2013-04-07 22:12:06 <sipa> but it can be a reddit about development, i guess
2736 2013-04-07 22:12:23 <licnep> ah
2737 2013-04-07 22:12:28 <skinnkavaj> sipa: start it
2738 2013-04-07 22:12:32 <skinnkavaj> you
2739 2013-04-07 22:12:42 <skinnkavaj> ill write a post about it on r/bitcoin
2740 2013-04-07 22:12:49 twmz has joined
2741 2013-04-07 22:13:02 <sipa> i'm no frequent reddittor (or what is the term) :)
2742 2013-04-07 22:13:04 HM has quit ()
2743 2013-04-07 22:13:07 <licnep> HM: check https://payswarm.com/ too, they're sort of standardizing what mozilla is doing
2744 2013-04-07 22:13:14 HM has joined
2745 2013-04-07 22:13:27 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: you called me? just got back to my desk
2746 2013-04-07 22:13:30 <skinnkavaj> if anyone else is up for creating a new subreddit for bitcoin development, pm me
2747 2013-04-07 22:13:57 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: sipa answered for you.
2748 2013-04-07 22:14:16 <skinnkavaj> or better just write here if you are interested :)
2749 2013-04-07 22:14:17 <CodeShark> oh? thanks sipa... ;)
2750 2013-04-07 22:14:49 <HM> the bitcoin reddit is the worst of places
2751 2013-04-07 22:14:52 <licnep> skinnkavaj: i don't understand, what kind of stuff would you post in that subreddit?
2752 2013-04-07 22:15:20 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2753 2013-04-07 22:15:27 LainZ has joined
2754 2013-04-07 22:15:29 <gmaxwell> "evil devlopers won't merge my blacklisting patch! here are their home addresses! upvote the one you want killed first"
2755 2013-04-07 22:15:39 <HM> lmao
2756 2013-04-07 22:15:46 <skinnkavaj> licnep: stuff like transaction fees
2757 2013-04-07 22:15:46 <licnep> lol
2758 2013-04-07 22:16:19 <skinnkavaj> r/bitcoindev should be all about changes which the community have to agree on
2759 2013-04-07 22:16:34 <skinnkavaj> like a true democratic way
2760 2013-04-07 22:16:37 <skinnkavaj> :)
2761 2013-04-07 22:16:53 <gmaxwell> the forrest fire wavefront of 1001 places where people are busy being rude and opinionated about things they won't take time to understand really doesn't need to be any bigger…
2762 2013-04-07 22:17:07 n5 has joined
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2764 2013-04-07 22:17:48 <n5> I using bitcoind for 200k users site and i want to give every user diferent acc
2765 2013-04-07 22:18:02 <n5> then i'm trying to get trough jasonrpc getnewaddress
2766 2013-04-07 22:18:05 <n5> i get error
2767 2013-04-07 22:18:14 <n5> Requires unlocked wallet? (v0.4.0+)
2768 2013-04-07 22:18:15 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: lol
2769 2013-04-07 22:18:16 <phantomcircuit> n5, do *not* use the accounts feature in bitcoind
2770 2013-04-07 22:18:23 <n5> it only generated 100 adresses
2771 2013-04-07 22:18:27 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2772 2013-04-07 22:18:29 <phantomcircuit> give each user a different address
2773 2013-04-07 22:18:31 <sipa> n5: is your wallet encrypted?
2774 2013-04-07 22:18:32 <n5> phantomcircuitwhy?
2775 2013-04-07 22:18:38 <n5> sipa yes
2776 2013-04-07 22:18:46 <phantomcircuit> n5, it doesn't work the way you're expecting it to work at all
2777 2013-04-07 22:18:51 <sipa> n5: then you need to unlock it to add new addresses
2778 2013-04-07 22:18:57 <phantomcircuit> and it makes backups impossible
2779 2013-04-07 22:19:00 i2pRelay has joined
2780 2013-04-07 22:19:03 <sipa> n5: those 100 were pregenerated, but it can't generate more when the wallet is locked
2781 2013-04-07 22:19:05 kalleboo has joined
2782 2013-04-07 22:19:15 Guest59825 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2783 2013-04-07 22:19:48 <n5> sipa so can I pregenerate like 2 mln adresses?
2784 2013-04-07 22:20:06 <Luke-Jr> n5: what did you mention v0.4.0 for?
2785 2013-04-07 22:20:22 <n5> it is error i get
2786 2013-04-07 22:20:24 <sipa> n5: i don't think it will scale to that many
2787 2013-04-07 22:20:36 <Luke-Jr> O.o
2788 2013-04-07 22:20:37 <sipa> n5: 10000, maybe 100000 addresses
2789 2013-04-07 22:21:00 <n5> sipa well i have 210 000 users.
2790 2013-04-07 22:21:07 dbe has joined
2791 2013-04-07 22:21:08 <n5> how can i do diferent way
2792 2013-04-07 22:21:08 <Luke-Jr> n5: then you probably need to hire someone
2793 2013-04-07 22:21:30 dbe is now known as Guest84851
2794 2013-04-07 22:21:48 <n5> I'm not sure all 210 000 will go to payment page and see adress, but it can be like 100 000 on announcment
2795 2013-04-07 22:21:49 <phantomcircuit> n5, the current practical limit is 100k addresses
2796 2013-04-07 22:22:01 Guest84851 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2797 2013-04-07 22:22:23 blinky has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2800 2013-04-07 22:22:42 blinky has joined
2801 2013-04-07 22:22:44 <phantomcircuit> n5, i can design a system for you that will scale very well
2802 2013-04-07 22:23:57 kalleboo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2803 2013-04-07 22:25:21 <phantomcircuit> or not
2804 2013-04-07 22:25:28 <phantomcircuit> either way dont use the accounts feature
2805 2013-04-07 22:25:38 <phantomcircuit> it makes producing a correct backup effectively impossible
2806 2013-04-07 22:25:59 <midnightmagic> I have a bitcoind with 397k bitcoin addresses in it by accident, and on the machine I'm running bitcoind on it takes ~10s to flush wallet.dat, and something like 15 minutes to load wallet.dat in on first startup.
2807 2013-04-07 22:26:15 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, sounds about right
2808 2013-04-07 22:26:28 <phantomcircuit> i have a testnet wallet with iirc 1 million addresses
2809 2013-04-07 22:26:29 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2810 2013-04-07 22:26:41 <phantomcircuit> the last time i tried to load it i gave up after 2 hours
2811 2013-04-07 22:26:49 <midnightmagic> yikes.
2812 2013-04-07 22:26:53 <wallet42> dafuq
2813 2013-04-07 22:26:57 <wallet42> 400K adresses?
2814 2013-04-07 22:27:01 i2pRelay has joined
2815 2013-04-07 22:27:08 <phantomcircuit> wallet42, it's easy to do on accident
2816 2013-04-07 22:27:10 <midnightmagic> "by accident"
2817 2013-04-07 22:27:18 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, lawl
2818 2013-04-07 22:27:20 <phantomcircuit> ok sure
2819 2013-04-07 22:27:23 <phantomcircuit> by accident
2820 2013-04-07 22:27:44 <midnightmagic> I wrote mine before I saw yours, honest I'm not correcting you. I'm pointing out that I did it by accident, not on purpose. :)
2821 2013-04-07 22:28:08 <gmaxwell> "by accident"
2822 2013-04-07 22:29:50 <skinnkavaj> is the bitcoin code actually organized this beautiful? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2OBbK-7qPc
2823 2013-04-07 22:31:16 <n5> phantomcircuit i dont have money :D
2824 2013-04-07 22:31:29 <sipa> skinnkavaj: ehm, the evolution presented by gource is somewhat nicer than the resulting code :)
2825 2013-04-07 22:31:31 <phantomcircuit> n5, oh in that case
2826 2013-04-07 22:31:44 <phantomcircuit> n5, good luck? but seriously dont use the accounts function
2827 2013-04-07 22:31:54 <phantomcircuit> it becomes effectively impossible to keep backups
2828 2013-04-07 22:32:09 <n5> phantomcircuit why?
2829 2013-04-07 22:32:18 <skinnkavaj> sipa: can i read the code myself with bitcoin-qt? if so what do i need? :p
2830 2013-04-07 22:32:28 <wallet42> i have a question regarding an attack: if a Marvin has enough hashing power to create a longer (fake) chain than the last checkpoint with only coinbase tx. but he does this in private and only when his chain is longer he connectes to the honest p2p net and publishes chain
2831 2013-04-07 22:33:20 <phantomcircuit> n5, when you call getnewaddress it assigns the bitcoin address to an account, to have proper backups you would need to backup after every call to getnewaddress instead of just often enough that the keypool is the same
2832 2013-04-07 22:33:35 <phantomcircuit> you wont lose any bitcoins, but you will lose the record of whose address it is
2833 2013-04-07 22:33:38 <n5> i tried to use blockchain.info it crashed after 4000 adresses
2834 2013-04-07 22:33:53 <sipa> skinnkavaj: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tree/master/src/
2835 2013-04-07 22:34:10 <wallet42> i love how main.cpp is only 4800 LOC
2836 2013-04-07 22:34:16 <phantomcircuit> wallet42, if they can do that then all is lost anyways
2837 2013-04-07 22:34:16 <sipa> "only"
2838 2013-04-07 22:34:21 <sipa> main.cpp is a horrible beast
2839 2013-04-07 22:34:24 <n5> phantomcircuit what options do i have?
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2841 2013-04-07 22:34:43 <phantomcircuit> n5, store the mapping of bitcoin address <-> user in a normal database
2842 2013-04-07 22:34:57 <skinnkavaj> sipa: damn really smooth viewing all files with github
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2844 2013-04-07 22:35:00 <phantomcircuit> of course you'll still need to do backups but they are designed for constant backups
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2846 2013-04-07 22:35:23 <phantomcircuit> the bitcoin wallet.dat is designed for backups at intervals not for constant replication
2847 2013-04-07 22:35:31 <wallet42> but will clients accept the fake chain?
2848 2013-04-07 22:35:41 <phantomcircuit> wallet42, no
2849 2013-04-07 22:35:54 <sipa> wallet42: define 'fake' ?
2850 2013-04-07 22:35:54 <n5> ok, thanks
2851 2013-04-07 22:35:57 <wallet42> if it wasnt around for the last month
2852 2013-04-07 22:36:02 <phantomcircuit> but if they can create a fork that long they obviously have >50% of the hashing power
2853 2013-04-07 22:36:07 <phantomcircuit> so it doesn't really matter
2854 2013-04-07 22:36:50 <sipa> wallet42: if it satisfies proof-of-work, has valid transactions in, and is the chain with the most work, it will be accepted
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2857 2013-04-07 22:37:56 <n5> ok, my super plan is dead
2858 2013-04-07 22:39:02 <phantomcircuit> n5, mind if i ask what your plan was?
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2860 2013-04-07 22:40:13 <wallet42> but the submitted block has to have all checkpoints as ancesters right?
2861 2013-04-07 22:40:19 <n5> my baby is crying
2862 2013-04-07 22:40:20 <n5> brb
2863 2013-04-07 22:40:56 <sipa> wallet42: yes
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2870 2013-04-07 22:45:21 <n5> phantomcircuit what you mean store the mapping of bitcoin adresses. you mean generate adreses without label?
2871 2013-04-07 22:46:49 <phantomcircuit> n5, right
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2873 2013-04-07 22:47:11 <phantomcircuit> n5, then have a table with user_id and bitcoin_address columns
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2875 2013-04-07 22:47:38 <n5> yup
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2912 2013-04-07 23:12:36 <deadweasel> i need a good live distro for keeping with my wallet.dat usb keys, any reccomendations?
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2936 2013-04-07 23:26:54 <deadweasel> i need a good live distro for keeping with my wallet.dat usb keys, any reccomendations?
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2950 2013-04-07 23:34:43 <etotheipi__> someone mentioned dbcache as helping speed up initial blockchain verification... what is the details of that?
2951 2013-04-07 23:35:25 <GlitchNZ> using php JSON_RPC library - I keep getting 500 internal server errors when making call s that have multiple parameters - how should I be sending these parameters? Bitcoin debug log does not tell me what is wrong
2952 2013-04-07 23:35:34 <sipa> etotheipi__: the larger the dbcache is, the faster it goes :)
2953 2013-04-07 23:35:57 <etotheipi__> sipa: well then why isn't dbcache maxed out by default?  what's the downside?
2954 2013-04-07 23:35:58 <sipa> GlitchNZ: can you be specific?
2955 2013-04-07 23:35:59 <GlitchNZ> e.g. $bitcoin->listunspent($address)  //$address is a valid address in the wallet
2956 2013-04-07 23:36:02 <sipa> etotheipi__: memory usage?
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2958 2013-04-07 23:36:25 <etotheipi__> sipa: sorry, I'm not familiar with it at all
2959 2013-04-07 23:36:27 <sipa> people already complain about how much memory it uses
2960 2013-04-07 23:36:42 <sipa> etotheipi__: you know what a cache is, right? :)
2961 2013-04-07 23:36:50 <etotheipi__> so it's just allocating some memory for initial processing?
2962 2013-04-07 23:36:52 <GlitchNZ> php error: failed to open stream: HTTP request failed! HTTP/1.1 500 Internal Server Error
2963 2013-04-07 23:36:55 <etotheipi__> *cache
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2967 2013-04-07 23:37:12 <sipa> etotheipi__: there are many layers of caching
2968 2013-04-07 23:37:17 <sipa> etotheipi__: some inside leveldb itself
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2970 2013-04-07 23:37:22 <sipa> some in bitcoin
2971 2013-04-07 23:37:44 <etotheipi__> sipa: so is the number you provide it the number of bytes extra to give it?
2972 2013-04-07 23:37:48 <sipa> etotheipi__: megabytes
2973 2013-04-07 23:37:51 <denisx> why does listaccounts show generated bitcoins which are not yet confirmed?
2974 2013-04-07 23:37:56 <etotheipi__> I mean, I'm thinking that people using Armory already expected to have a lot of RAM
2975 2013-04-07 23:38:22 <etotheipi__> and Armory won't have indexed the chain yet, so technically they should have 2 GB of RAM sitting idle during that download :)
2976 2013-04-07 23:38:22 <joeykrim> GlitchNZ, should be a more detailed error somewhere .. when i hit 500s, theres an error_log file on server i read from
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2979 2013-04-07 23:39:00 <etotheipi__> sipa: also, I know how much RAM the system has...
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2981 2013-04-07 23:39:22 <etotheipi__> I'm just wondering if there's a way I can intelligently optimize that parameter for users
2982 2013-04-07 23:39:23 <sipa> etotheipi__: cool, how do you find out?
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2984 2013-04-07 23:39:40 <sipa> etotheipi__: i usually run with a -dbcache=1000
2985 2013-04-07 23:39:44 <GlitchNZ> I seem to always run into this when passing addresses as arguments - is there a known issue with how php passes strings to the server?
2986 2013-04-07 23:39:52 <etotheipi__> sipa: python
2987 2013-04-07 23:39:59 <sipa> etotheipi__: right, import soul
2988 2013-04-07 23:40:05 <etotheipi__> exactly
2989 2013-04-07 23:40:09 <etotheipi__> it actually wasn't simple
2990 2013-04-07 23:40:21 <etotheipi__> there was not an OS-independent way to do it
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2994 2013-04-07 23:40:39 <sipa> i can imagine :D
2995 2013-04-07 23:40:52 <etotheipi__> so it just involves parsing output of "free -m" in Linux, or using ctypes in Windows
2996 2013-04-07 23:41:22 <etotheipi__> but since Armory is so RAM heavy, I decided I needed it in the log file so that I don't have to keep asking people (since they're usally sending me a logfile anyway)
2997 2013-04-07 23:42:08 <GlitchNZ>  fopen(http://...@127.0.0.1:8332/) [<a href='function.fopen'>function.fopen</a>]: failed to open stream: HTTP request failed! HTTP/1.1 500 Internal Server Error\r\n in C:\\Users\\Chris\\Desktop\\Backup\\HP_Laptop_24-11-2012\\Users\\Chris\\Documents\\Development\\Eclipse Projects\\SatoshiWish\\root\\lib\\jsonrpcphp\\includes\\jsonRPCClient.php on line 132
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2999 2013-04-07 23:42:26 <GlitchNZ> p[robably didnt need my filessytem info - hmmm tolate now
3000 2013-04-07 23:42:34 <sipa> GlitchNZ: that php library is known to be quite useless regarding error handling
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3002 2013-04-07 23:42:43 <etotheipi__> sipa: so if I set dbcache to 2GB, I assume it's going to keep that allocated even after sync'ing is done?
3003 2013-04-07 23:42:59 <sipa> etotheipi__: in theory, yes; in practice... a lot less after IBD
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3005 2013-04-07 23:43:32 <joeykrim> GlitchNZ, ive never looked at it, but id guess to start poking around jsonrpcclient.php on line 132 and fopen failing
3006 2013-04-07 23:45:04 <GlitchNZ> are there bettter open source libraries out there?
3007 2013-04-07 23:45:57 <etotheipi__> sipa: so maybe I can have python check whether the blocks directory is less than 5 GB, and use -dbcache=1000 if it is
3008 2013-04-07 23:46:05 <etotheipi__> otherwise, leave the default
3009 2013-04-07 23:46:16 <sipa> etotheipi__: seems doable
3010 2013-04-07 23:46:22 <sipa> etotheipi__: if the ram is available
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3012 2013-04-07 23:46:39 <etotheipi__> is the speed increase worth the trouble of doing that?
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3016 2013-04-07 23:46:52 <sipa> probably, yes
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3019 2013-04-07 23:47:20 <sipa> though connecting to a single fast node for syncing probably helps more
3020 2013-04-07 23:47:39 <etotheipi__> sipa: anyway I can improve that?
3021 2013-04-07 23:47:53 <sipa> if you know a fast peer to sync from, sure ;)
3022 2013-04-07 23:48:12 <etotheipi__> I'm just looking for further optimizations that I can intelligently deduce for the user
3023 2013-04-07 23:48:13 <sipa> though i wouldn't appreciate it if you made every armory user sync from mine :p
3024 2013-04-07 23:48:37 <etotheipi__> sipa: haha
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3026 2013-04-07 23:49:18 <joeykrim> cdn for the block table?
3027 2013-04-07 23:49:45 <sipa> cdn?
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3029 2013-04-07 23:50:06 <joeykrim> content delivery network ..
3030 2013-04-07 23:50:10 <gmaxwell> joeykrim: I prefer magical pixie dust myself.
3031 2013-04-07 23:50:24 <sipa> gmaxwell: i though you were such a fan of DHT's?
3032 2013-04-07 23:50:27 <sipa> *thought
3033 2013-04-07 23:51:02 <sipa> joeykrim: i guess this counts as one: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145386.0
3034 2013-04-07 23:51:44 <gmaxwell> A second dimension I hadn't thought of while talking about advertising fetchable ranges is how to express load balancing preferences. e.g. how to have nodes signal "I am a 10gbit/s node with plenty of spare capacity"
3035 2013-04-07 23:52:26 <joeykrim> sipa, hah interesting idea to torrent out the blockchain
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3037 2013-04-07 23:53:00 <lianj> gmaxwell: and other clients believe it then? :D
3038 2013-04-07 23:53:10 <sipa> gmaxwell: at that point it may well be more interesting to just implement the bittorrent protocol :)
3039 2013-04-07 23:53:37 <gmaxwell> sipa: not sure if you've spent much time looking at what BT does. I am not impressed in general.
3040 2013-04-07 23:54:21 zooko has joined
3041 2013-04-07 23:54:26 <gmaxwell> lianj: as a first preference, — sure. In particular, this would be used as fetching block data by nodes that already have the headers and know what blocks they want.
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3043 2013-04-07 23:54:59 <gmaxwell> (so the only sybil risk there is that you can't find anyone that has the block you need at all)
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3047 2013-04-07 23:55:31 <lianj> gmaxwell: no i mean believe the speed he said
3048 2013-04-07 23:55:49 <sipa> gmaxwell: you could do a challenge-response: server: "i haz 4ll bl0ckz!!!", client: "oh yeah, what's transaction #N of block #M? proof it please, merkle path and all"
3049 2013-04-07 23:56:00 <sipa> *prove
3050 2013-04-07 23:56:50 <gmaxwell> sipa: yea, a flag in addrman?  "I personally have reason to believe the claims in this addr message are not bullshit?"
3051 2013-04-07 23:57:28 <gmaxwell> and preferantially relay addr messages that have been BS checked?
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