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6 2013-04-08 00:06:46 <diki> A very neat option would be, to turn off the announcements that you received/sent a transaction!
7 2013-04-08 00:06:56 <diki> or mined a block
8 2013-04-08 00:06:56 <deadweasel> i need a good live distro for keeping with my wallet.dat usb keys, any reccomendations?
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11 2013-04-08 00:07:15 <sipa> diki: for what purpose?
12 2013-04-08 00:07:17 <etotheipi__> deadweasel: there's a bunch of people on the Armory thread talk about tails
13 2013-04-08 00:07:36 <deadweasel> tails?
14 2013-04-08 00:07:39 <etotheipi__> deadweasel: apparently it's designed for this kind of thing
15 2013-04-08 00:07:40 <diki> sipa:Do you want a made up reason, or the truth?
16 2013-04-08 00:07:57 <etotheipi__> yeah, it's a live distro that guarantees it won't touch your network, disk, etc, unless you explicitly tell it to
17 2013-04-08 00:08:17 <sipa> diki: as long as you can convince me it's the truth :)
18 2013-04-08 00:08:17 <etotheipi__> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137091.0
19 2013-04-08 00:08:37 <deadweasel> thx etotheipi__
20 2013-04-08 00:08:48 <diki> sipa:Convince you? No idea about that. Just to clarify, I am talking about Bitcoin-Qt and the tray popups.
21 2013-04-08 00:09:17 <diki> It's so that when alt-coin makers fork Bitcoin-Qt, I stop getting spammed with popups when I've mined a ton of blocks.
22 2013-04-08 00:09:23 <sipa> diki: oh, i thought you were talking about announcing to the network
23 2013-04-08 00:09:47 <diki> And, so that you can customize the UI as much as you can.
24 2013-04-08 00:10:12 <sipa> diki: pull requests welcome i guess :p
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35 2013-04-08 00:20:11 <bwen> I heard it is possible to craft a raw transaction like a fund raiser. Where the address and the amount is defined. And people can send transaction to it but no BTC are transfered untill the total amount is reached.
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37 2013-04-08 00:20:52 <etotheipi__> bwen: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_3:_Assurance_contracts
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39 2013-04-08 00:22:45 <bwen> exciting stuff :D
40 2013-04-08 00:23:27 <gmaxwell> I don't think anyone has written a tool for merging anyonecanpays yet.
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42 2013-04-08 00:24:40 <etotheipi__> if I ever take over the world and get some free time, I will
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44 2013-04-08 00:24:56 <denisx> why does listaccounts show generated bitcoins which are not yet confirmed?
45 2013-04-08 00:24:57 <sipa> you expect to still have free time if you take over the world?
46 2013-04-08 00:24:59 <denisx> anybody?
47 2013-04-08 00:25:03 <phantomcircuit> ruling the world sounds like a lot of work
48 2013-04-08 00:25:09 <phantomcircuit> damn sipa beat me too it
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51 2013-04-08 00:25:27 <sipa> denisx: no idea
52 2013-04-08 00:25:28 <bwen> wait, does that mean I can craft the transaction but no one can contribute because no tool supports it? I though it would be as simple as just sending a regular transaction?
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55 2013-04-08 00:25:56 <phantomcircuit> bwen, unfortunately not
56 2013-04-08 00:26:00 <gmaxwell> bwen: no, its not as simple as sending a regular transaction.
57 2013-04-08 00:26:14 <bwen> but
58 2013-04-08 00:26:21 <gmaxwell> no buts.
59 2013-04-08 00:26:25 <gmaxwell> :P
60 2013-04-08 00:26:32 <bwen> I could craft both contributing transaction and the funder raiser transaction myself
61 2013-04-08 00:26:35 <bwen> ?
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63 2013-04-08 00:26:55 <phantomcircuit> sure but you'd have to get it into a block
64 2013-04-08 00:26:56 <etotheipi__> I'd like to create a tool that collects such contributions, and then monitors the blockchain to keep a running tally of how much money is there
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66 2013-04-08 00:26:58 <dino__> Question: Is it possible, with bitcoind, to read *all* transactions in a block. (Or the entire block chain if I was crazy enough to try?)
67 2013-04-08 00:27:01 <phantomcircuit> and im not sure you could do that
68 2013-04-08 00:27:14 <etotheipi__> people could spend their contributions, but I could also see when that happens
69 2013-04-08 00:27:27 <gmaxwell> The easiest way to do this is to just prearrange the whole content of a transaction, as then you can also do change... see also: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139581.0
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85 2013-04-08 00:37:41 <MC-Droid> !blocks
86 2013-04-08 00:37:42 <gribble> 230202
87 2013-04-08 00:37:44 <MC-Droid> Wat
88 2013-04-08 00:38:13 <MC-Droid> I've got a peer here with 221312
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91 2013-04-08 00:40:15 <sipa> i have 230202
92 2013-04-08 00:40:32 <sipa> 1100 blocks off seems quite impossible without anyone noticing
93 2013-04-08 00:41:12 <etotheipi__> couldn't that be a peer mid-IBD?
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97 2013-04-08 00:43:06 <sipa> at no point should he have more blocks than the rest of us :p
98 2013-04-08 00:43:34 <etotheipi__> 221,312
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100 2013-04-08 00:43:50 <sipa> oh
101 2013-04-08 00:43:53 <sipa> i misread!
102 2013-04-08 00:44:15 <wallet421> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=solve+sha256%28x%29+%3C+0x000000000000022FBE0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
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105 2013-04-08 00:45:37 <wallet421> 230202 blocks for me
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118 2013-04-08 00:59:32 <wallet421> whats the fastet way to calculate how many bitcoins are in an unspent coibase tx?
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122 2013-04-08 01:01:39 <sipa> wallet421: you mean what the sum of the values of the unspent outputs of a specific (coinbase) transaction is?
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124 2013-04-08 01:02:54 <wallet421> yes
125 2013-04-08 01:03:03 <sipa> wallet421: gettxout RPC
126 2013-04-08 01:03:23 <sipa> that looks up a txid:index in the UTXO set
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129 2013-04-08 01:05:21 <wallet421> ty
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136 2013-04-08 01:10:25 <wallet421> ah i found the term they are called "pristine" bitcoins
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138 2013-04-08 01:10:59 <wallet421> znort987 seems to be my man :) anyone knows him? or ill just pm him
139 2013-04-08 01:11:00 <wallet421> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=98641.0
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157 2013-04-08 01:27:00 <gmaxwell> sipa: Interesting to see the tor project contemplating doing something similar to BIP32 for concealing the identities of hidden services. https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/8106 see the last post
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168 2013-04-08 01:37:48 <graingert> gmaxwell: ooh clever
169 2013-04-08 01:38:00 <denisx> hmm, I run HEAD from yesterday and it still show 0.8.0
170 2013-04-08 01:38:04 <denisx> is that intended?
171 2013-04-08 01:38:06 <gmaxwell> denisx: correct.
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173 2013-04-08 01:38:27 <denisx> very midleading
174 2013-04-08 01:38:30 <denisx> misleading
175 2013-04-08 01:38:30 <arij> how many gb is the blockchain ?
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177 2013-04-08 01:38:52 <lianj> arij: 7
178 2013-04-08 01:39:17 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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180 2013-04-08 01:39:52 <arij> thanks
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188 2013-04-08 01:47:44 <X-Scale> arij: https://blockchain.info/charts/blocks-size
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192 2013-04-08 01:48:38 <X-Scale> arij: https://blockchain.info/charts/blocks-size?timespan=all&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=
193 2013-04-08 01:48:49 <arij> thanks
194 2013-04-08 01:49:06 <lianj> its more like 7 now
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197 2013-04-08 01:50:49 <sipa> indeed, quite close to 7
198 2013-04-08 01:53:37 <midnightmagic> 7.8GB here..?
199 2013-04-08 01:53:55 <midnightmagic> hrm.
200 2013-04-08 01:54:01 <lianj> midnightmagic: 7 is ignoring orphaned blocks
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202 2013-04-08 01:54:32 <midnightmagic> I'm very happy that orphans are being stored.
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204 2013-04-08 01:54:55 <midnightmagic> .. still.
205 2013-04-08 01:54:58 <lianj> hehe why? (not saying its not useful though)
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215 2013-04-08 01:59:57 <jspilman> hope everyone is having a good weekend
216 2013-04-08 02:00:14 AlmightyBung has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
217 2013-04-08 02:03:15 <jspilman> been reading Hearn's and Aakselrod's writeups on payment channels. I've got a question about how they can work with the v0.8 changes to IsStandard (treating non-final and non standard)
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222 2013-04-08 02:04:56 <Guest24727> Anyone care to comment on the 12,154 unconfirmed transactions which blockchain.info reports is out there...
223 2013-04-08 02:05:35 <jspilman> If you have multiple transactions with monotonic sequence numbers and a future nLockTime - only one can ever go into the blockchain, right? What guarantees do you have as nLockTime approachs about which version will make it? Seems like miners can do what they want once nLockTime is past, there's no requirement that they use the latest sequence number?
224 2013-04-08 02:05:58 <gmaxwell> Guest24727: I'm not sure what there is to comment onâ I sent a large feeless lowish (all newly mined coins) priority txn a couple hours ago and it confirmed the next block.
225 2013-04-08 02:06:12 <gmaxwell> Guest24727: some of the txn listed there are just crazy spam ones which will hopefully never confirm.
226 2013-04-08 02:06:30 <Guest24727> that's reasurring. seems like a large num, that's all
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228 2013-04-08 02:06:34 <gmaxwell> jspilman: correct.
229 2013-04-08 02:06:55 <gmaxwell> Guest24727: what would be more useful is a count with "crazy" ones excluded, but defining crazy is hard.
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231 2013-04-08 02:09:40 <Guest24727> i imagine there is no purging done after n hours - they just persist until processed?
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233 2013-04-08 02:11:41 <gmaxwell> I have no clue what blockchain.info does. I know they purge old ones from their list but I don't know what their criteria is.
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237 2013-04-08 02:13:03 <jspilman> thanks gmaxwell. so if nLockTime of all the incremental payments are the same, you have a race condition to see which will make it on the blockchain, e.g. the payer could broadcast the original transaction returning all the funds to them, and offer a bounty if someone actually mined it
238 2013-04-08 02:13:27 <jspilman> like a subsequent spend with a very large fee
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241 2013-04-08 02:15:46 <jspilman> do payment channels have a defense against this? the first thing that comes to mind is decreasing nLockTime with each subsequent payment, but you would need enough of a decrease in nLockTime for the payee to be sure they will get their tx deep enough in the blockchain before the original tx could be sent
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243 2013-04-08 02:16:37 <gmaxwell> clever idea (decreasing the locktime), but no they do not.
244 2013-04-08 02:17:01 <gmaxwell> and, yep, you're correct people could bountize mining the wrong one.
245 2013-04-08 02:17:36 <jspilman> so many details :-)
246 2013-04-08 02:17:41 <jspilman> I have to re-read https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Aakselrod/Draft
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249 2013-04-08 02:20:12 <jspilman> I understand wanting to have a guarantee that money won't be stuck in the channel. but you need some very strong guarantee you can invalidate those previously signed transactions after the fact with the latest one... hmm, tricky
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255 2013-04-08 02:21:32 <jspilman> simply to go with a 2-of-3 multisig where only the payer signs the latest version of each transaction, so the payee has full control over redemption, plus an arbiter who can "release" the most recently signed version if necessary. but involving 3rd parties certainly are not as clean
256 2013-04-08 02:21:44 <jspilman> *simpler
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261 2013-04-08 02:23:39 <gmaxwell> jspilman: there is no end to that holdup race you've just moved it around.
262 2013-04-08 02:23:52 <gmaxwell> well, except for an arbiter.
263 2013-04-08 02:24:47 <jspilman> hard to trust in nothing but the crypto. in the end, trust has to lie somewhere!
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265 2013-04-08 02:25:08 <jspilman> mostly in bitcoind actually :-)
266 2013-04-08 02:26:42 <X-Scale> So 50*6*24*365.25*4*1/(1-0.5) = 21,038,400 is the theoretical limit for the amount of BTCs that will be ever generated ?
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271 2013-04-08 02:30:21 <sipa> midnightmagic: the extra 0.8GB is most likely undo data
272 2013-04-08 02:30:51 <sipa> midnightmagic: if you counted the rev*.dat files
273 2013-04-08 02:31:36 <gmaxwell> X-Scale: no, the limit of the series is 21 million exactly. sum(210000*50*1/2^n,n,0,+infinity);
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275 2013-04-08 02:32:25 <sipa> X-Scale: there are _exactly_ 210000 blocks with value 50 (well, actually 209999, but that's an exception), 210000 with 25, 210000 with 12.5, ... and so on
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279 2013-04-08 02:34:44 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Is that with infinite divisibility?
280 2013-04-08 02:34:50 <sipa> midnightmagic: yes
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283 2013-04-08 02:35:16 <gmaxwell> X-Scale: though unless granularity is increased it will come up somewhat shorter than that: sum(floor((210000*50*1/2^n)*1e8)/1e8,n,0,+infinity)
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285 2013-04-08 02:35:27 <gmaxwell> (I'm somewhat impressed that wolfram alpha actually solves that)
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287 2013-04-08 02:35:37 <nsillik> if anyone from blockchain.info is here right now, /msg me. thanks!
288 2013-04-08 02:35:57 * midnightmagic wonders if that is the same as his calculator..
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290 2013-04-08 02:36:16 <X-Scale> Oh...then it halves the difficulty every 4 years minus around 2 or 3 days.
291 2013-04-08 02:36:49 <gmaxwell> It halves every 210000 blocks.
292 2013-04-08 02:37:03 <gmaxwell> And the bound on how long that takes is much wider than 2 or 3 days..
293 2013-04-08 02:37:54 viperhr1 has joined
294 2013-04-08 02:37:56 <sipa> block 210000 was on november 28th 2012
295 2013-04-08 02:38:12 <sipa> while block 0 was on januari 3rd 2009
296 2013-04-08 02:38:20 darkskiez has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
297 2013-04-08 02:38:28 <gmaxwell> the first cycle is a bit weird because the system spent a lot of time at less than difficulty 1.
298 2013-04-08 02:38:33 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: I get here a sum of 2099999997690000e-8
299 2013-04-08 02:38:43 <sipa> midnightmagic: iirc, that is the correct number
300 2013-04-08 02:38:58 <X-Scale> Ok, I see. The 10 minutes rule is not exact then.
301 2013-04-08 02:39:09 <midnightmagic> sipa: Okie
302 2013-04-08 02:39:13 <sipa> X-Scale: the system continuously _aims_ for 10 minutes, but nothing is exact
303 2013-04-08 02:39:24 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: 20999999.9999998 is what WA gives.
304 2013-04-08 02:39:50 <sipa> WA is wrong then :)
305 2013-04-08 02:39:53 <X-Scale> I guess this is it: 50*210000*1/(1-0.5) = 21000000
306 2013-04-08 02:40:30 wallet421 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
307 2013-04-08 02:40:35 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: I get here a sum of 20999999.97690000 after calculating it via integer math subdivision
308 2013-04-08 02:40:44 <gmaxwell> I don't see anything wrong with my formula.
309 2013-04-08 02:40:59 <sipa> gmaxwell: i think it's just rounding
310 2013-04-08 02:42:03 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
311 2013-04-08 02:42:10 <sipa> wait, no, it's way off
312 2013-04-08 02:42:32 <sipa> gmaxwell: the 210000* should be outside of the floor()
313 2013-04-08 02:42:39 <gmaxwell> oh duh
314 2013-04-08 02:43:34 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
315 2013-04-08 02:43:43 <gmaxwell> sum(210000*floor((50*1e8)/2^n)/1e8,n,0,+infinity) = 209999999769/10000
316 2013-04-08 02:43:52 <GlitchNZ> With the rate the BTC is rising - are we going to have to have another look at transaction fees?
317 2013-04-08 02:44:06 i2pRelay has joined
318 2013-04-08 02:45:33 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Sayonara)
319 2013-04-08 02:47:56 <Luke-Jr> GlitchNZ: wrong channel for that
320 2013-04-08 02:48:23 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: the only fees which are "set" are the baseline fee which isn't treated as zero for the purpose of preventing flooding attacks. And that has been substantially the limiting fee pretty often.
321 2013-04-08 02:49:18 darkskiez has joined
322 2013-04-08 02:49:42 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: I think the proposed idea right now is to make that one automatic instead not relaying anything with fees less than worst fee N blocks worth of transactions deep in the mempool.
323 2013-04-08 02:50:00 berni23 has joined
324 2013-04-08 02:50:00 berni23 has quit (Changing host)
325 2013-04-08 02:50:00 berni23 has joined
326 2013-04-08 02:50:11 <gmaxwell> I can only imagine that the non-determinism of that is just going to make people spaz more, but I don't think its unreasonable.
327 2013-04-08 02:50:47 john5223 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
328 2013-04-08 02:51:37 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
329 2013-04-08 02:51:43 <PRab> I've been thinking about it more and I've convinced myself that I don't like using the fee as spam/flooding prevention.
330 2013-04-08 02:51:50 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
331 2013-04-08 02:51:58 <gmaxwell> PRab: thats nice.
332 2013-04-08 02:52:03 bernard75 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
333 2013-04-08 02:52:03 <sipa> PRab: if only everyone would think like you :)
334 2013-04-08 02:52:09 i2pRelay has joined
335 2013-04-08 02:52:09 <sipa> then we wouldn't need it :p
336 2013-04-08 02:52:30 <Luke-Jr> PRab: you have a better solution?
337 2013-04-08 02:52:35 <PRab> I know... and I also know I haven't even submitted even one line of code.
338 2013-04-08 02:52:58 <PRab> Luke-Jr: Every other web service uses limits at the network level.
339 2013-04-08 02:53:35 <gmaxwell> PRab: miners are going to obvious prioritize on fees/kb, for the most part... there is no point in flooding txn that have basically no prospect of getting mined.
340 2013-04-08 02:53:46 <gmaxwell> PRab: we cannot distinguish users.
341 2013-04-08 02:53:52 <PRab> Luke-Jr: My proposal is that each node would only allow each connected node to do a certain number of "actions" per second (request block, request transaction, etc.)
342 2013-04-08 02:54:07 <gmaxwell> thats worthless, alas.
343 2013-04-08 02:54:08 <Luke-Jr> PRab: then I'm just going to stop relaying all transactions
344 2013-04-08 02:54:15 <Luke-Jr> to avoid using up my quota
345 2013-04-08 02:54:52 <HM> PRab: nothing stops a mining pool ignoring that convention
346 2013-04-08 02:54:54 <PRab> If my average usage is lower than my allowed usage, I would relay transactions.
347 2013-04-08 02:55:09 <Luke-Jr> PRab: you can't know your allowed usage
348 2013-04-08 02:55:25 ColinT has joined
349 2013-04-08 02:55:28 <PRab> HM: Unless users start broadcasting directly to pools, the transactions will get dropped before they reach the pool.
350 2013-04-08 02:55:44 <gmaxwell> pools? pools are not part of the bitcoin protocol.
351 2013-04-08 02:55:49 nsillik has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
352 2013-04-08 02:56:06 <PRab> Pools/Miners, they are the same in my mind.
353 2013-04-08 02:56:16 EvilPete has joined
354 2013-04-08 02:56:27 <sipa> let's call them block builders
355 2013-04-08 02:56:32 <gmaxwell> In any case, there is no point in having relay rules which are disjoint with how txn will get mined.
356 2013-04-08 02:56:45 <PRab> sipa: I can go with that
357 2013-04-08 02:56:59 <PRab> gmaxwell: Why not?
358 2013-04-08 02:57:00 fiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
359 2013-04-08 02:57:21 <sipa> gmaxwell: maybe there is - the sort of system "the fully validating network" aims for may be different from the sort of system miners aim for
360 2013-04-08 02:57:24 nsillik has joined
361 2013-04-08 02:57:26 <gmaxwell> ideally you want to relay 100% of the transactions that will be mined soon and 0% of the ones that won't. As you'll have to pickup those transactions anyways when they get mined.
362 2013-04-08 02:57:49 <gmaxwell> sipa: you can argue thatâ but it's so easily circumvented I don't know that it matters.
363 2013-04-08 02:57:57 <sipa> perhaps yeah
364 2013-04-08 02:58:02 fiesh has joined
365 2013-04-08 02:58:14 <gmaxwell> "I accept by fee ordering here, send me your txn, and I'll fee order them and relay no matter what the dogoodnicks do!"
366 2013-04-08 02:58:23 <PRab> gmaxwell: But a user doesn't know the rules that a block builder is going to use to include transactions.
367 2013-04-08 02:58:36 <gmaxwell> PRab: we do, for the most part.
368 2013-04-08 02:58:54 <Luke-Jr> not really IMO
369 2013-04-08 02:58:57 <Luke-Jr> not software-know
370 2013-04-08 02:58:57 <GlitchNZ> Yes - the payment protocol will help
371 2013-04-08 02:59:05 <Luke-Jr> â¦
372 2013-04-08 02:59:06 <PRab> gmaxwell: For now, several pools have already started to implement their own rules.
373 2013-04-08 02:59:14 <sipa> PRab: well assuming block space is limited, a (short-term) rational block builder will optimized for transactions with the highest fee/byte
374 2013-04-08 02:59:22 <gmaxwell> as sipa says.
375 2013-04-08 02:59:38 <GlitchNZ> But it looks like creating transactions will enter the domain of a handful of large processors - the system will be hidden from end users
376 2013-04-08 02:59:39 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
377 2013-04-08 02:59:50 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: huh?
378 2013-04-08 03:00:07 <sipa> GlitchNZ: the payment protocol extends transaction creation to even more nodes than we have now
379 2013-04-08 03:00:10 i2pRelay has joined
380 2013-04-08 03:00:11 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: I'm missing some context from your messages I think.
381 2013-04-08 03:00:16 <PRab> sipa: My most recent calculations still show that a greedy miner still shouldn't include almost any transactions.
382 2013-04-08 03:00:23 <sipa> GlitchNZ: as all you need is a wallet - not even a p2p protocol connection
383 2013-04-08 03:00:54 <gmaxwell> PRab: I believe your math is wrong then.
384 2013-04-08 03:01:01 <GlitchNZ> Well - as dificulty increases, cost of creating blocks increases miners will implement rules that ensure they get paid enough fees to do the job - transactions will become more and more expensive, making them worthwhile only for large transfers
385 2013-04-08 03:01:08 <PRab> sipa: The transmission time increase still outweighs the the chance of generating an orphan.
386 2013-04-08 03:01:22 <GlitchNZ> If I send a transaction with small or no fee, it will never get processed
387 2013-04-08 03:01:38 <sipa> GlitchNZ: true, but that's something else
388 2013-04-08 03:01:59 <gmaxwell> PRab: Where is the model?
389 2013-04-08 03:02:11 <GlitchNZ> lol - we may end up with a centralised system after all
390 2013-04-08 03:02:34 <sipa> GlitchNZ: bitcoin is ultimately a balance between decentralization of transaction creation and transaction validation
391 2013-04-08 03:02:53 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
392 2013-04-08 03:02:54 <sipa> GlitchNZ: if block sizes grow unlimited, nobody will be able to validate the system, but everyone will be able to spend
393 2013-04-08 03:03:16 <sipa> GlitchNZ: if block sizes are extremely limited, few will be able to create transactions, but everyone's abacus will be able to validate it
394 2013-04-08 03:03:20 <PRab> gmaxwell: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ap8b8Fy33rWmdHh1WEpwNjhGNExlc29PWjVjdTJ5enc&usp=sharing, but I did a bunch of other math thats not included. It is getting close to break even, but not quite there yet.
395 2013-04-08 03:03:33 ColinT has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
396 2013-04-08 03:03:36 RBecker is now known as rbecker
397 2013-04-08 03:03:39 <sipa> GlitchNZ: however, if you want a system where everyone can spend, and nobody can validate, go use (physical) dollars
398 2013-04-08 03:03:43 daveluke has quit (Quit: daveluke)
399 2013-04-08 03:04:03 <gmaxwell> PRab: why are you assuming such low network speeds? >>half the hashpower is run from well connected datacenters with gigabit connected hosts.
400 2013-04-08 03:04:09 sud3n has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
401 2013-04-08 03:04:46 <PRab> gmaxwell: I am assuming average network speed. The datacenter only gets you over the first hop.
402 2013-04-08 03:04:47 <gmaxwell> PRab: and I dunno about hops to 50%, if miners care to they could be two hops from 50% if they wanted.
403 2013-04-08 03:04:58 <GlitchNZ> sipa - its not what I want - I like bitcoin the way it is - just trying to figure out how the future is going to unfold when the glorious days of cheaply mined coins ends
404 2013-04-08 03:05:11 <gmaxwell> my mining nodes are 1 hop to 50%
405 2013-04-08 03:05:31 <PRab> gmaxwell: If they manually configure themselves to connect to the largest pools.
406 2013-04-08 03:05:45 <gmaxwell> PRab: might be fun to try to match up observed orphaning with your figures.
407 2013-04-08 03:06:01 twobitcoins__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
408 2013-04-08 03:06:09 <PRab> gmaxwell: Agreed. I wonder how I could do that...
409 2013-04-08 03:06:25 saulimus has joined
410 2013-04-08 03:06:26 <PRab> Blockchain.info lists orphans, right?
411 2013-04-08 03:06:29 twobitcoins__ has joined
412 2013-04-08 03:06:32 <gmaxwell> Yes.
413 2013-04-08 03:07:03 <sipa> PRab: depends what you mean by orphan *ducks*
414 2013-04-08 03:07:12 darkmethod has joined
415 2013-04-08 03:07:30 <gmaxwell> sipa: I think you've lost on this one...
416 2013-04-08 03:07:42 <sipa> gmaxwell: yeah, i've given up on it, don't worry :)
417 2013-04-08 03:07:42 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
418 2013-04-08 03:07:48 <PRab> gmaxwell: Another thing I forgot about, even if you have a 1Gb link in your datacenter, you have to divide the bandwidth by the number of connected peers.
419 2013-04-08 03:08:00 <HM> "hacking attack" has a nice ring to it
420 2013-04-08 03:08:12 i2pRelay has joined
421 2013-04-08 03:08:15 <gmaxwell> PRab: no, you send near sequentially in fastest marginal return order.
422 2013-04-08 03:08:23 <GlitchNZ> I suppose you guys know a thing or 2 about hashing algorithms?
423 2013-04-08 03:08:24 <PRab> I assume it uploads new blocks in parallel to all nodes, right?
424 2013-04-08 03:08:27 <gmaxwell> I think all major pools do the two tier node thing.
425 2013-04-08 03:08:30 <gmaxwell> PRab: it does not.
426 2013-04-08 03:08:43 <GlitchNZ> how 'random' are the bytes in an sha512 hash?
427 2013-04-08 03:08:49 <sipa> GlitchNZ: very
428 2013-04-08 03:09:11 sud3n has joined
429 2013-04-08 03:09:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: if the block fits in the per-socket buffer, it effectively is sent in parallel
430 2013-04-08 03:09:20 <GlitchNZ> across the whoe output, or are bytes in a particular position 'more random' than others?
431 2013-04-08 03:09:21 <sipa> at least in git head
432 2013-04-08 03:09:22 <gmaxwell> If you can show that they're not, collect your fame and fortune, because that would be a weakness in the expected properties.
433 2013-04-08 03:09:31 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
434 2013-04-08 03:10:07 <GlitchNZ> gmaxwell - of course i know the ideal is complete randomness, but my understanding is that is an unatainable ideal
435 2013-04-08 03:10:10 <PRab> sipa: Sounds like I need to dive into the code.
436 2013-04-08 03:10:21 * PRab prepares to curse c++
437 2013-04-08 03:10:25 <gmaxwell> sipa: hm. they're observably sequential in 0.7. I think I missed what change would have made them run in parallel.
438 2013-04-08 03:10:40 wallet42 has joined
439 2013-04-08 03:11:38 <sipa> GlitchNZ: the assumption is that given any function f, if you know f(HASH(x)), you know nothing about x
440 2013-04-08 03:11:51 <sipa> i may have formulated that incorrectly
441 2013-04-08 03:12:06 <sipa> anyway, no non-randomness is known
442 2013-04-08 03:12:07 <PRab> gmaxwell: If they are sequential, then is it safe to assume that all of the large pools have prioritized transmitting blocks to other large pools.
443 2013-04-08 03:12:59 <gmaxwell> PRab: the common configuration is to have an inner network and an outer one.. e.g. your pool server daemons themselves connect to each other, your public nodes, and a few other large pools. Your public nodes connect to whatever.
444 2013-04-08 03:13:50 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
445 2013-04-08 03:14:22 <PRab> gmaxwell: Thanks for the info. Let me try to integrate that into my calculations and see how it changes the numbers.
446 2013-04-08 03:14:36 <sipa> gmaxwell: i'm wrong
447 2013-04-08 03:14:52 <sipa> gmaxwell: it's a bit more complex than i remembered
448 2013-04-08 03:15:40 PixelCrumbs has joined
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450 2013-04-08 03:15:44 <sipa> when a new block is validated, its inv is put in every node's list of invs to send; only when the messages handler passes by that node, it's sent
451 2013-04-08 03:15:44 <GlitchNZ> yes sipa - I understand the theory, I was just curious about how hashes can work as RNG's. If I feed a sequnce of inputs into the hash function, I know that it should produce random out, but I assume there are measures for the strength on how random a given bit in a hash may be, and as randomness is not the only required feature of a secure hash. it maybe that 'weaker' hashes can act better as an RNG if not used for security pu
452 2013-04-08 03:16:15 i2pRelay has joined
453 2013-04-08 03:16:23 stretchwarren has joined
454 2013-04-08 03:16:30 <sipa> GlitchNZ: randomness is actually the security property you want, for some definition of randomness
455 2013-04-08 03:16:41 <sipa> GlitchNZ: i.e., indistinguishability from a random function
456 2013-04-08 03:18:00 <sipa> for some computational purposes (monte-carlo simulations, ...), you may want better-than-random numbers sometimes, but that's something entirely different
457 2013-04-08 03:18:04 <GlitchNZ> sipa - well, you also want minimal collisions for similar data, and in particular, you want to impose the rule that very similar inputs should produce very different outputs - as a truely random hash would produce similar outputs for a (very)small set of similar inputs, true randomness is not quite the primary goal
458 2013-04-08 03:18:47 <sipa> GlitchNZ: not sure what you mean by true randomness, but the property cryptographic hash functions aim for is 'indistinguishable from a random function'
459 2013-04-08 03:19:21 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: if you want a perfect hash function for some data you can have one of those too, but they're not cryptographically strong. :)
460 2013-04-08 03:19:35 <PRab> GlitchNZ: Do you have a particular goal in mind (relate to this hash) or are you just looking for background?
461 2013-04-08 03:19:36 <sipa> perfect hash functions are effectively better-than-random
462 2013-04-08 03:20:42 <gmaxwell> For minimal collisions, very much so. They are maximally better than random.
463 2013-04-08 03:20:55 <GlitchNZ> Well, I had written some code using hmac sha512, and I found running tests that for certain keys, random inputs didn't produce output that was as random as I would like
464 2013-04-08 03:21:00 <gmaxwell> each pidgeon in his own pidgeonhole.
465 2013-04-08 03:21:02 Cryptrader has joined
466 2013-04-08 03:21:13 <GlitchNZ> I was interested in how satoshidice works out the 'lucky number'
467 2013-04-08 03:21:13 <sipa> GlitchNZ: in that case your statistics are probably wrong
468 2013-04-08 03:21:15 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
469 2013-04-08 03:21:16 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: I suspect you have a broken definition of random then.
470 2013-04-08 03:21:39 <sipa> GlitchNZ: if you're able to distinguish the output of hmac-sha512 from random, you'd be world famous
471 2013-04-08 03:21:39 sud3n has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
472 2013-04-08 03:22:24 <GlitchNZ> well, if I run 100 million coin flip trials, while I understand that you will not get exactly 50/50 due to random variation, you should get close to 50/50
473 2013-04-08 03:22:53 <sipa> GlitchNZ: let me calculate that for you
474 2013-04-08 03:23:08 <HM> lol what
475 2013-04-08 03:23:15 <GlitchNZ> I was getting some oddly predictable behavior - and yes my first thoughts were that my code was broken, maybe the imeplmentation of the hamac im using isn't quite right
476 2013-04-08 03:23:21 <HM> someone apparantly sold 150 coins on btc-e for â¬150
477 2013-04-08 03:23:31 <HM> so now you know which exchange doesn't do best execution and sucks balls
478 2013-04-08 03:23:41 <Cryptrader> HM I saw that on reddit... ouch
479 2013-04-08 03:23:46 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
480 2013-04-08 03:24:09 sud3n has joined
481 2013-04-08 03:24:10 <sipa> GlitchNZ: you expect 50000000 +- 5000 to succeed
482 2013-04-08 03:24:17 i2pRelay has joined
483 2013-04-08 03:24:22 <HM> I can't be bothered to follow up the thread to see if it was remedied or what, but the fact is the order made it to the order book
484 2013-04-08 03:24:39 <sipa> GlitchNZ: the 5000 is the standard deviation, 2-3 standard deviations isn't unlikely
485 2013-04-08 03:24:44 Belxjander has joined
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487 2013-04-08 03:24:45 <Cryptrader> Its just that btc - eur is very low volume on btc-e
488 2013-04-08 03:25:06 <Cryptrader> so there were no higher buys after just a few btc and the rest were sold extremely low
489 2013-04-08 03:25:13 <GlitchNZ> yes, but i was getting things like 46000000 for a given key (i.e. the key was fixed but the input data was randomly generated)
490 2013-04-08 03:25:18 PixelCrumbs has joined
491 2013-04-08 03:25:27 <GlitchNZ> that seemed a bit off to me
492 2013-04-08 03:25:31 <HM> Cryptrader: yep, if you notice, i think mtgox do cross-currency exchange
493 2013-04-08 03:25:34 <sipa> GlitchNZ: then you likely have a broken random number generator :)
494 2013-04-08 03:25:38 <Belxjander> heya GlitchNZ
495 2013-04-08 03:25:45 <Belxjander> GlitchNZ: do you happen to run BitNZ at all?
496 2013-04-08 03:25:46 [7] has quit (Disconnected by services)
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498 2013-04-08 03:25:55 TheSeven has joined
499 2013-04-08 03:25:57 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: how are you deciding heads or tails from the sha512 output?
500 2013-04-08 03:26:09 <GlitchNZ> Sadly not, but if the interest it bitcoin keeps up, I maybe interested in doing something similar
501 2013-04-08 03:26:19 <Cryptrader> HM I don't think they do automatically, just if you put it in the usd/eur order book.
502 2013-04-08 03:26:37 <Belxjander> GlitchNZ: well if you do ... I'd be wanting to be able to do the entire setup from Japan (I'm an NZer living in Japan)
503 2013-04-08 03:26:39 <GlitchNZ> gmaxwell actually - what i am doing is far more complex that coin flips - which is why I thought my maths was wrong at first
504 2013-04-08 03:26:52 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: your maths is wrong.
505 2013-04-08 03:26:53 <gmaxwell> :P
506 2013-04-08 03:27:03 <GlitchNZ> heh lol - that or the rand(0 function in php
507 2013-04-08 03:27:13 <HM> Cryptrader: i did some examination at one point and there were identical orders across currencies with almost exactly 2% price adjustment
508 2013-04-08 03:27:21 <sipa> the rand function in php is very likely not cryptographically strong :
509 2013-04-08 03:27:24 <Cryptrader> Does anyone in here know how I can take data from BTC-e and put it in my spreadsheet to update on command?
510 2013-04-08 03:27:31 <GlitchNZ> gmaxwell the odd thing was when i switched to md5 i got perfect results
511 2013-04-08 03:27:32 <gmaxwell> the rand function in php is probably horrible.
512 2013-04-08 03:27:47 <sipa> GlitchNZ: what exactly were you doing?
513 2013-04-08 03:27:49 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: post your code.
514 2013-04-08 03:28:38 <GlitchNZ> hehehe - its top secret, but i would like to double check the maths, so let me 'abstractify' it a little
515 2013-04-08 03:28:49 <sipa> even more interesting!
516 2013-04-08 03:28:51 * sipa zZzZ
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528 2013-04-08 03:40:07 <GlitchNZ> sipa http://pastebin.com/u9ubx2Nx
529 2013-04-08 03:40:19 <GlitchNZ> its not my code exactly, but I think it is close enough
530 2013-04-08 03:40:25 i2pRelay has joined
531 2013-04-08 03:40:49 fanquake has joined
532 2013-04-08 03:41:03 <GlitchNZ> What i expect: On average $ret should be (1-x)*numTests for any given O
533 2013-04-08 03:41:44 <gmaxwell> that mechanism is biased. The normalization with the range there is floating point, not infinite precision.
534 2013-04-08 03:42:45 <GlitchNZ> assuming ) < 1000 that shouldn't be a problem should it?
535 2013-04-08 03:43:02 <GlitchNZ> I mean, you wouldn't expect it to have a significant statistical impact, or would you?
536 2013-04-08 03:43:15 <GlitchNZ> * assuming O<1000
537 2013-04-08 03:43:29 <gmaxwell> also fffffff is 268435455 not 72057594037927935 (ffffffffffffff)
538 2013-04-08 03:43:56 <GlitchNZ> sorry - 7-bytes is wrong in the code - should be 7-nibbles
539 2013-04-08 03:44:08 zw has joined
540 2013-04-08 03:44:20 <GlitchNZ> but thats a commenting erro r 7 is arbitary , any number greater than about 5 should suffice
541 2013-04-08 03:44:38 <gmaxwell> In any case thats only 28 bits, you're going to have substantial coprime-ness error there.
542 2013-04-08 03:45:05 <GlitchNZ> how many bits would suffice?
543 2013-04-08 03:45:08 twobitcoins_ has joined
544 2013-04-08 03:45:41 <GlitchNZ> and what do you mean by coprimeness - if all the bits in the hash are truely random, it shouldn't matter should it?
545 2013-04-08 03:45:42 <gmaxwell> Adding more won't help as you'll run into precision issues with your float. (is int/int in php a double or a float?)
546 2013-04-08 03:46:03 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: it only won't matter if your probablity is a dyadic ratio.
547 2013-04-08 03:46:30 <gmaxwell> (x/2^y)
548 2013-04-08 03:46:51 JZavala has joined
549 2013-04-08 03:47:28 <gmaxwell> I recommend you try again but do not use any division, modula, or floating point.
550 2013-04-08 03:47:43 <GlitchNZ> float - but I ran the test using GMP and had the same problems
551 2013-04-08 03:47:50 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
552 2013-04-08 03:48:13 twobitcoins__ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
553 2013-04-08 03:48:17 <GlitchNZ> how can I do this without using some form of division?
554 2013-04-08 03:48:21 i2pRelay has joined
555 2013-04-08 03:48:35 <GlitchNZ> if O was fixed, easy peasy - but makin O variable seems to be the hard bit
556 2013-04-08 03:49:17 <gmaxwell> by multiplying your probablity up to an integer range. and then generating a uniform random value from that range by retries.
557 2013-04-08 03:51:08 <GlitchNZ> so how does one get a recoprocalas a scaled whole number without using division
558 2013-04-08 03:51:19 <gmaxwell> E.g. if you probablity is .125 then you can multiply by 1000 to get an integer: 125 out of 1000. Then you generate a uniform random value in the range [0,1000) by taking ceil(log2(1000)) bits if hash, and if the result is >1000 repeating until it isn't.
559 2013-04-08 03:51:29 <GlitchNZ> *reciprocal as
560 2013-04-08 03:51:46 shesek has joined
561 2013-04-08 03:52:19 <GlitchNZ> ah yes, well thats probelm - cant do retries
562 2013-04-08 03:52:21 <gmaxwell> (there are other ways of doing this, but this is the one you're least likely to get wrong)
563 2013-04-08 03:52:25 <GlitchNZ> at least not easily
564 2013-04-08 03:52:30 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: then you can't do it. Go home.
565 2013-04-08 03:52:39 ThickAsThieves has left ()
566 2013-04-08 03:52:46 eckey has joined
567 2013-04-08 03:52:47 <GlitchNZ> that simple - no retires means it can't be done?
568 2013-04-08 03:53:16 fishfishclone has joined
569 2013-04-08 03:53:33 <gmaxwell> The code to extract uniform numbers of arbritary ranges from radix 2 numbers without retries is long, complicated, and tricky. .. and if it wasn't _obvious_ to you why your current code was biased, you're not going to understand it without a lot of work.
570 2013-04-08 03:53:36 <GlitchNZ> lets just be clear here - the issue is not the maths itself, just the underlying representation of numbers on the system?
571 2013-04-08 03:53:43 <eckey> Out of the blue, Bitcoin-Qt sends "Error opening block database. Do you want to rebuild..."
572 2013-04-08 03:53:56 <eckey> Does this mean another 4 days ?
573 2013-04-08 03:54:03 <eckey> to rebuild
574 2013-04-08 03:54:17 <gmaxwell> eckey: no... though it shouldn't have taken 4 days. What version? what system?
575 2013-04-08 03:54:51 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: depending on coprime your range is with 2^n you may require a rather large number of additional random bits under any given scheme in any case.
576 2013-04-08 03:54:53 <eckey> bitcoin-0.8.1 OSX
577 2013-04-08 03:55:12 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: Why can't you retry? add a counter to your hmac and just increment it.
578 2013-04-08 03:55:22 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: anyone else could repeat your process.
579 2013-04-08 03:55:37 jgarzik has joined
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581 2013-04-08 03:55:54 jgarzik has quit (Changing host)
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586 2013-04-08 03:57:06 ltrottier has left ()
587 2013-04-08 03:57:10 btcgames__ has joined
588 2013-04-08 03:57:20 <btcgames__> if you wanna play some games while your waiting for bitcoins to make you richer, theres a new game where you can get up to 17 times your bet trying to get through a minefield! http://www.satoshi-karoshi.com/?r=9059
589 2013-04-08 03:57:54 twobitcoins__ has joined
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600 2013-04-08 04:06:55 <GlitchNZ> gmaxwell - i had done a similar approach, but maybe my logic was flawed - when working with gmp I tried to keep things as ints, if I constrain O to be <1000 and I only care about say 3.dp of precision, could I not use an arbitrary maximum for any given value of O? say100000 - I mean it doesn't have to be 125/1000 for .125 - it could easily be 125000/1000000
601 2013-04-08 04:07:27 crystalneth has joined
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603 2013-04-08 04:08:37 <gmaxwell> if the denominator is a power of two you're fine (meaning the probablity is a dyadic ratio). If its not you must retry.
604 2013-04-08 04:08:51 Fanqua-1 has joined
605 2013-04-08 04:09:15 <gmaxwell> (or, rather, "must do something more complicated, such as retry")
606 2013-04-08 04:09:31 <Diablo-D3> http://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-mine-bitcoins-2013-3?op=1
607 2013-04-08 04:09:34 <Diablo-D3> oh dear lord Im famous
608 2013-04-08 04:09:38 <Diablo-D3> how the fuck did that happen
609 2013-04-08 04:09:39 fanquake has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
610 2013-04-08 04:11:14 twobitcoins_ has joined
611 2013-04-08 04:11:32 twmz has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
612 2013-04-08 04:11:57 ColinT has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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617 2013-04-08 04:13:43 <GlitchNZ> so if I make the denominator an arbitrarity large power of 2 (e.g. 2^28) and restrict O to be less than 2^10, then presumably I should get close?
618 2013-04-08 04:13:55 chovy has joined
619 2013-04-08 04:13:57 <chovy> howdy
620 2013-04-08 04:14:00 <chovy> so i have a question. When i load up my wallet it connects to sync with the blockchain...what server is it going to? Isn't this a single point of failure?
621 2013-04-08 04:14:40 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: so long as your probablity is exactly some integer over a power of two you can make it work without retries.. you just grap that power of two bits, and use your probablity as an integer in that range.
622 2013-04-08 04:14:41 <GlitchNZ> its called p2p for a reason - you do not connect to 'a server; but a shared peer-2-peer network
623 2013-04-08 04:14:51 twobitcoins__ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
624 2013-04-08 04:15:01 <gmaxwell> chovy: it's not going to any server its talking to the other bitcoin nodes just like your node.
625 2013-04-08 04:15:14 <GlitchNZ> your client will believe whatever a majority of the peole on that p2p network agree on
626 2013-04-08 04:15:44 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Malware pretending to be bitcoin on sourceforge: http://sourceforge.net/projects[ THIS IS A MALWARE LINK IDIOTS, REMOVE THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK]/bitcoinqt/files/?source=navbar
627 2013-04-08 04:16:00 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: Thats not correct.
628 2013-04-08 04:16:03 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: SF notified?
629 2013-04-08 04:16:19 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: no. Who has access to control our official one?
630 2013-04-08 04:16:32 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: gavin, me, I think nanotube, maybe sipa
631 2013-04-08 04:16:33 bigPolak has joined
632 2013-04-08 04:16:38 <GlitchNZ> sorry gmaxwell - i not it is not tecnically correct, but it is not a bad laymans explanation
633 2013-04-08 04:16:55 <GlitchNZ> *i know (sorry about awful typing, I'm tired)
634 2013-04-08 04:16:59 * jgarzik returned from vacation-that-really-wasn't-due-to-sick-baby
635 2013-04-08 04:17:21 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: well, it's kinda bad.. because even a mildly savvy layman will then conclude "it's insecure because a badguy can just startup lots of nodes and give himself a trillion bitcoin"
636 2013-04-08 04:17:41 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: but so long as you get it, OKAY
637 2013-04-08 04:17:50 twobitcoins has joined
638 2013-04-08 04:17:57 bigPolak has left ()
639 2013-04-08 04:18:00 <k9quaint> gmaxwell: that was my plan! what tipped you off?
640 2013-04-08 04:18:06 <k9quaint> was it those meddling kids?
641 2013-04-08 04:18:12 BenderCoin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
642 2013-04-08 04:18:21 saracen has joined
643 2013-04-08 04:18:27 <GlitchNZ> I shall rephrase: your client will believe those nodes that are distributing the most computationally difficult version of events
644 2013-04-08 04:18:28 BenderCoin has joined
645 2013-04-08 04:18:34 <GlitchNZ> better?
646 2013-04-08 04:18:56 <nanotube> gmaxwell: left a message for ctsai of sf, and posted a warning review on the fake project.
647 2013-04-08 04:19:04 <nanotube> now just gotta wait for sf business hours for them to notice.
648 2013-04-08 04:19:08 <nanotube> maybe also post a ticket.
649 2013-04-08 04:19:15 bigPolak has joined
650 2013-04-08 04:19:19 bigPolak has left ()
651 2013-04-08 04:19:28 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: subject to the events meeting a long series of rulesâ the trillion coin inflation example isn't possible even if the most computation is behind it. :)
652 2013-04-08 04:19:59 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
653 2013-04-08 04:20:12 twobitcoins_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
654 2013-04-08 04:20:30 i2pRelay has joined
655 2013-04-08 04:20:45 <GlitchNZ> man, we just can't win with you gmaxwell, I just assumed that when someone asks a simple question, they want a simple answer
656 2013-04-08 04:21:06 <GlitchNZ> although I enjoy how serious you take it
657 2013-04-08 04:21:08 PixelCrumbs has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
658 2013-04-08 04:21:58 PixelCrumbs has joined
659 2013-04-08 04:23:11 * GlitchNZ starts working on a computer system that can handle floating point numbers without stupid rounding oddities
660 2013-04-08 04:24:17 melvster has joined
661 2013-04-08 04:28:01 <eckey> you'll need an IBM1620
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667 2013-04-08 04:28:30 <Luke-Jr> GlitchNZ: what rounding oddities?
668 2013-04-08 04:28:33 i2pRelay has joined
669 2013-04-08 04:30:07 <GlitchNZ> A number system that provably and accurately represent any given rational number as a finite-legnth \ string
670 2013-04-08 04:30:15 <GlitchNZ> =)
671 2013-04-08 04:30:23 Cryo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
672 2013-04-08 04:30:42 <GlitchNZ> shouldn
673 2013-04-08 04:30:51 <GlitchNZ> tshouldn't be to hard I expect
674 2013-04-08 04:30:57 owowo has quit (Quit: sayonara)
675 2013-04-08 04:30:58 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: wtf dude. you want a right answer or do you want your random numbers to be non-uniform and someone to rob you blind? The details matter, greatly.
676 2013-04-08 04:31:26 <Luke-Jr> GlitchNZ: that is by definition NOT floating-point
677 2013-04-08 04:31:37 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: it's not that you need it accurately represented thats hard, its that you need there to be absolutely no redundancy in the encoding.
678 2013-04-08 04:31:42 <GlitchNZ> gmaxwell - I do apprecietate the problem, and you are right,I am just frustrated - I had not anticipated the difficulty of the problem
679 2013-04-08 04:32:39 <gmaxwell> I gave you a general solution which is easy to correctly implement. You don't like that it might require you to retry some. But .. thats really what I recommend. You can make this work with a determinstic seed by just incrementing a counter to retry.
680 2013-04-08 04:33:06 <GlitchNZ> Luke-Jr - not that is the definition of NOT possible
681 2013-04-08 04:34:22 <GlitchNZ> gmaxwell, so whats the easiest way to determine the multiplier for a given value of O? do 1/O and count the number of decimals?
682 2013-04-08 04:34:57 duckybsd has joined
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684 2013-04-08 04:36:11 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
685 2013-04-08 04:36:27 <GlitchNZ> actually O can just be the number I want right? log2(O) bits, retry for $value>2^(log2(O))
686 2013-04-08 04:36:37 i2pRelay has joined
687 2013-04-08 04:37:25 <GlitchNZ> (with appropriet ceil()'s of course)
688 2013-04-08 04:37:56 SvenDiagram has joined
689 2013-04-08 04:38:02 <GlitchNZ> actually I want floor
690 2013-04-08 04:38:05 ColinT has joined
691 2013-04-08 04:38:08 <chovy> gmaxwell: but how does it know where to go initially?
692 2013-04-08 04:38:59 <gmaxwell> You write your probablity as a rational. Then you need a uniform number on the range 0 to denominator. You can get one of these from taking ceil(log2(denominator)) random bits and retrying.
693 2013-04-08 04:39:03 <chovy> gmaxwell: it must get a list of nodes from somewhere.
694 2013-04-08 04:39:48 <gmaxwell> chovy: It queries four dns names, and there is an initial list of 500 built in. You can also manually tell it about nodes. From those it learns of other nodes and remembers them.
695 2013-04-08 04:42:13 dermoth_ has joined
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698 2013-04-08 04:43:27 <chovy> gmaxwell: ok. still seems like technically it *could* be shutdown.
699 2013-04-08 04:43:27 shadders has joined
700 2013-04-08 04:43:36 <GlitchNZ> hmmm have to make sure X can be calculated rationally as well
701 2013-04-08 04:44:05 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
702 2013-04-08 04:44:33 <gmaxwell> chovy: how? even if the default peers are not available you can add your own that you reach over tor.
703 2013-04-08 04:44:36 i2pRelay has joined
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707 2013-04-08 04:45:34 <chovy> gmaxwell: what your saying sounds like bittorrent trackers, which get shutdown all the time.
708 2013-04-08 04:46:09 ColinT has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
709 2013-04-08 04:46:27 <GlitchNZ> chovy - bittorrent trackers get shutdown for distributing illegal material - bitcoin is not illegal
710 2013-04-08 04:46:28 <gmaxwell> chovy: no, it's like saying _all_ bittorrent trackers, including private ones and ones reasonable only over VPNs.. Not _a_ bittorrent tracker.
711 2013-04-08 04:46:39 <gmaxwell> and yes, I was debating answering the way GlitchNZ did.
712 2013-04-08 04:46:54 <gmaxwell> (I figured the more technical answer was less likely to get a pointless debate :) )
713 2013-04-08 04:47:25 <GlitchNZ> you do like a good technical answer though dont you gmaxwell
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717 2013-04-08 04:51:23 <GlitchNZ> gmaxwell: http://pastebin.com/8sdb80ab
718 2013-04-08 04:51:40 <chovy> gmaxwell: well, bitcoin isn't illegal (yet).
719 2013-04-08 04:51:55 <chovy> but i wouldn't put it past gov to make it illegal.
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723 2013-04-08 04:52:46 <GlitchNZ> chovy: US release policy last week setting out the rules of bitcoin to be treated like any other foreign currency, essential signalling tacit approval
724 2013-04-08 04:52:57 <chovy> i'm just trying to understand how it won't get shutdown or controlled. Not challenging whether you're right or wrong.
725 2013-04-08 04:53:08 <gmaxwell> chovy: I think thats pointless paranoia. I'll worry about that when magic the gathering and beaniebabies are made illegal. .. but as I said, I think that discussion won't be productive here.
726 2013-04-08 04:53:13 <GlitchNZ> gmaxwell I know line 24 is wrong (im getting $bits number of bytes) ignore it
727 2013-04-08 04:53:13 <chovy> GlitchNZ: wait until the banks lobby against it
728 2013-04-08 04:53:45 <gmaxwell> Lobby against it? heck sounds like the kind of crazy speculative thing they'd be all to eager to get in on... :-/
729 2013-04-08 04:53:53 bitcoiner has joined
730 2013-04-08 04:53:59 <chovy> gmaxwell: alright. i'll leave you guys alone now. Thanks for explaining the seeding of nodes though.
731 2013-04-08 04:54:07 <gmaxwell> no problem!
732 2013-04-08 04:54:19 <GlitchNZ> It would seem governments are starting to get a hard lesson in letting banks make decisions about tax payers money - we are hopeful that the lessons will be learned without to much further heartache
733 2013-04-08 04:54:46 <GlitchNZ> but if not - your money is no safer with them than it is with bitcoin
734 2013-04-08 04:54:48 <chovy> gmaxwell: yeah, who knows what will happen. Sure is exciting though.
735 2013-04-08 04:54:57 <GlitchNZ> chovy :)
736 2013-04-08 04:55:15 PartTimeLegend has quit (Quit: Leaving)
737 2013-04-08 04:55:24 orblivion has joined
738 2013-04-08 04:55:32 <chovy> GlitchNZ: yeah. i'm probably going to wait 6 months and see what happens...then invest regularly.
739 2013-04-08 04:55:41 <GlitchNZ> lol max - ignore the pastebin its fatally flawed
740 2013-04-08 04:56:12 <warren> GlitchNZ: "last week"?
741 2013-04-08 04:56:14 sud3n has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
742 2013-04-08 04:57:08 crystalneth has quit (Quit:)
743 2013-04-08 04:57:20 sud3n has joined
744 2013-04-08 04:57:29 <GlitchNZ> gmaxwell http://pastebin.com/tha20zV5
745 2013-04-08 04:57:30 grau has joined
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747 2013-04-08 04:58:17 <GlitchNZ> warren: sorry 18 March: http://www.fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2013-G001.html
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753 2013-04-08 05:01:05 <GlitchNZ> I have to catch a train - I'll get your opinion on the code later - thanks for the help, its apprecieated
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772 2013-04-08 05:20:57 <GlitchNZ> Back :)
773 2013-04-08 05:21:35 <GlitchNZ> gmaxwell - does the code look o.k.?
774 2013-04-08 05:23:03 <gmaxwell> ceil not floor. if you use floor you can end up with 2^bits < possibilities.
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776 2013-04-08 05:24:49 i2pRelay has joined
777 2013-04-08 05:25:26 eklass2 has joined
778 2013-04-08 05:26:40 <GlitchNZ> Of course
779 2013-04-08 05:27:16 ThomasV has joined
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785 2013-04-08 05:31:08 <aceat64> sometimes I really hate php, I forgot that on 404 or 500 fopen just gives up
786 2013-04-08 05:31:16 <aceat64> so I can't see the error messages from bitcoind
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793 2013-04-08 05:38:54 <asoltys_> can someone take a look at this tx for me? https://blockchain.info/tx/ba3e70e2b62b0a2578a862cfa153af1e5cbea101dac0a5094ebc1edd7e1fd994 i got an error when sending it using blockchain.info and thought it hadn't sent so i tried a couple times. only after did i realize this thing actually was broadcast but interestingly it's not being picked up.. yet
794 2013-04-08 05:39:35 <asoltys_> luckily the guy i was sending to seems like a nice fella so if these accidental duplicates go through he's going to send them back. but i'm wondering wth happened
795 2013-04-08 05:40:14 <gmaxwell> asoltys_: my node hasn't seen it.
796 2013-04-08 05:40:21 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
797 2013-04-08 05:40:37 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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799 2013-04-08 05:40:57 <gmaxwell> you really shouldn't reuse addresses, incidentally. Even if you don't care about privacy it screws up the privacy of everyone you transact with.
800 2013-04-08 05:42:01 <asoltys_> ok, i'll make an effort not to
801 2013-04-08 05:42:03 Cryo has joined
802 2013-04-08 05:42:17 <gmaxwell> blockchain.info was having some problems earlier, perhaps thats why it hasn't been broadcastâ it looks pretty good to me.
803 2013-04-08 05:42:32 <gmaxwell> Do you actually have the raw transaction? if you pastebin it I can try announcing it for you.
804 2013-04-08 05:42:40 <asoltys_> i don't want it announced
805 2013-04-08 05:42:46 chovy has joined
806 2013-04-08 05:42:56 <chovy> what happens if my wallet backup doesn't have my latest transactions and I loose my real wallet due to hd failure?
807 2013-04-08 05:43:17 <gmaxwell> asoltys_: I see what you mean, you're saying you accidentally paid him twice.
808 2013-04-08 05:43:20 <Cryo> paradox
809 2013-04-08 05:43:26 <asoltys_> gmaxwell: correct, thrice actually..
810 2013-04-08 05:43:28 <gmaxwell> asoltys_: well I think its likely that txn will go through.
811 2013-04-08 05:43:55 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
812 2013-04-08 05:43:55 <gmaxwell> chovy: the txn in the wallet aren't important, it can relearn them from the blockchain.
813 2013-04-08 05:44:09 <asoltys_> gmaxwell: ok i'll have to contact the recipient tomorrow i suppose if that's the case
814 2013-04-08 05:44:10 <turboroot> turboroot: have a recent backup, and you should be ok
815 2013-04-08 05:44:18 <turboroot> s/turboroot/chovy
816 2013-04-08 05:44:50 <chovy> gmaxwell: what about my balance?
817 2013-04-08 05:44:57 ColinT has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
818 2013-04-08 05:45:14 <turboroot> chovy: the client will resolve it with the current blockchain
819 2013-04-08 05:45:26 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I welcome you to disagree with me, but you do not get to disagree with the fact that ignoring block requests while leaving the connection up willâ currentlyâ kill the network if done even somewhat widely.
820 2013-04-08 05:45:29 <chovy> if i backup with 5btc, and then i get 5 more, and hd fails. If I re-open the 5btc wallet, will I have 10btc or 5btc
821 2013-04-08 05:46:00 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: Where did I ever claim that?
822 2013-04-08 05:46:04 <turboroot> chovy: 10
823 2013-04-08 05:46:12 <chovy> turboroot: ok, so it's like loosing your credit card or something. You just want to have a copy of your credit card number. You don't actually loose the balance.
824 2013-04-08 05:47:36 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Thats what you're doing by disagreeing with me! :P The dude's patch makes nodes just _ignore_ block requests. That is a total non-starter and I was struggling to not tell the guy "NO. Not until this other stuff is done", so the best I could manage is a "Yes, and, if you make the node shut down inbounds instead of ignore blocks"
825 2013-04-08 05:47:52 <turboroot> chovy: yes, the client calculates your balance from the blockchain in accordance to what addresses it believes you're able to spend in your wallet
826 2013-04-08 05:48:00 ZeroIce has joined
827 2013-04-08 05:48:04 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: and I dunno, if a node has filled up its bandwidth limits for the day or monthâ not taking more connections seems pretty reasonable.
828 2013-04-08 05:48:22 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
829 2013-04-08 05:48:23 <gmaxwell> I said in my message that closing connections doesn't make sense for the hour/minute limits.
830 2013-04-08 05:48:32 <chovy> turboroot: ok, thanks
831 2013-04-08 05:48:32 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: You're parsing at too high a level (in contrast to a typical luke-jr micro-parsing)
832 2013-04-08 05:48:32 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
833 2013-04-08 05:48:44 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Ah. OKAY.
834 2013-04-08 05:48:52 <chovy> turboroot: so even if my backup is a year old, i'm still good.
835 2013-04-08 05:48:54 i2pRelay has joined
836 2013-04-08 05:49:09 <ZeroIce> ;;ticker --last
837 2013-04-08 05:49:10 <gribble> 173.87999
838 2013-04-08 05:49:14 <turboroot> chovy: depends
839 2013-04-08 05:49:16 <ZeroIce> wowie
840 2013-04-08 05:49:50 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Yea, don't take my suggestion there to be "what I think is good", it was more "I'm trying not to say 'FUCK NO', here is the smallest possible change that would move me off of 'FUCK NO' that isn't asking [pullreq author] to go write a bunch of extra stuff"
841 2013-04-08 05:50:00 <chovy> turboroot: on what?
842 2013-04-08 05:50:15 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: it seemed clear to me in the thread that you, sipa and TD all said something to the effect of "you can't just not respond to getblocks requests, that will break things"
843 2013-04-08 05:50:17 <turboroot> chovy: the client generates a bunch of keys in batches. if not too much activity is going on in your wallet you should be fine
844 2013-04-08 05:50:35 systemParanoid has quit (Quit: Leaving)
845 2013-04-08 05:50:40 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: additionally, you can't just respond SLLLOOOWLY right now either.
846 2013-04-08 05:50:47 <GlitchNZ> Definity: there can be a delay with hash rates show I g up, and what is reported can differ from what cgminer reports. If you get no change after an hour then something may be up
847 2013-04-08 05:50:48 <gmaxwell> though that will break things less bad.
848 2013-04-08 05:51:22 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
849 2013-04-08 05:51:24 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: horsepucky. nodes naturally do that in the wild, by virtue of varying connection capabilities and loads.
850 2013-04-08 05:51:28 <GlitchNZ> Woops wrong chan
851 2013-04-08 05:51:32 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: thus less bad.
852 2013-04-08 05:51:53 <turboroot> for example, the client generates 100 priv keys intially. you back that up. later, you use your wallet to the extent that its previous batch of key isn't enough, so it generates another batch.
853 2013-04-08 05:51:57 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: better is that when a node is using up its capacity it actually sends you elsewhereâ perhaps you'll find someone who actually has capacity to spare.
854 2013-04-08 05:52:32 <turboroot> chovy: then, your hd crashes. you would be SOL with any balance in the second batch of keys generated
855 2013-04-08 05:52:36 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: but right now we moronically will keep pulling from the first node we connected to, which would often be a node with lots of bandwidth but a limiter turned way down (he's never congested!) :P
856 2013-04-08 05:52:49 <turboroot> chovy: however, any coins associated with the first batch would be fine
857 2013-04-08 05:52:59 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: hmmm, it does not sound like you read what I wrote at all.
858 2013-04-08 05:53:11 <chovy> turboroot: how do i know when my client generates new keys?
859 2013-04-08 05:53:12 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: particular vis a vis that last comment + sipa's referenced pull req
860 2013-04-08 05:53:13 jMyles has joined
861 2013-04-08 05:53:41 <chovy> i've been backing up after every transaction just to be safe.
862 2013-04-08 05:54:03 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I'm paying attention to "when the alternative is to enable users with a limit commonly found in other P2P applications" This is not yet an alternative.
863 2013-04-08 05:54:04 <nanotube> turboroot: chovy: suggest taking your discussion over to #bitcoin or #bitcoin-101 or some such, to free up space for actual dev talk. :)
864 2013-04-08 05:54:19 <turboroot> chovy: PM :)
865 2013-04-08 05:54:38 <chovy> #bitcoin is a wall of noise...i'll try #bitcoin-101
866 2013-04-08 05:54:39 MrLight has joined
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868 2013-04-08 05:55:05 Coke_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
869 2013-04-08 05:55:23 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: and a node which has exceeded its monthly limit really ought not be announcing itself for inbound connections, so I protest your "disappointing to see that as a recommendation" because that is exactly what you should be doing there.
870 2013-04-08 05:55:24 sud3n has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
871 2013-04-08 05:55:57 pera has joined
872 2013-04-08 05:56:03 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: if you set a bandwidth limit, it will never exceed its monthly limit.
873 2013-04-08 05:56:24 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
874 2013-04-08 05:56:35 <pera> hi, I'm really concerned about this: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1bw9xg/data_in_the_blockchain_wikileaks/
875 2013-04-08 05:56:55 i2pRelay has joined
876 2013-04-08 05:56:55 <ZeroIce> turboroot: how do i know when my client generates new keys?
877 2013-04-08 05:57:44 <ZeroIce> oh your advice was to ask in #bitcoin?
878 2013-04-08 05:57:50 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: RE alternative, the logic you continue to argue appears to be designed to ensure there will never be an alternative
879 2013-04-08 05:58:02 <turboroot> ZeroIce: you don't
880 2013-04-08 05:58:28 <jgarzik> luckily sipa's work on peer scoring opens many doors
881 2013-04-08 05:58:44 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: a lot of people don't care about the datarateâ they'd like to peak out at the maximum rate they can, but they're charged by monthly total bytes sent. Thats how the pullreq is constructed, thats something that both freenet and tor offer. (e.g. see AccountingMax in torrc)
882 2013-04-08 05:58:48 <jgarzik> and we've all known that peer/getblocks selection needs work. finally it is getting work.
883 2013-04-08 05:58:54 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: wtf
884 2013-04-08 05:58:59 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I am insulted.
885 2013-04-08 06:00:20 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I think working on the fetching and peer selection behavior is what is required there its what I've been saying over and over again.
886 2013-04-08 06:00:37 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: and I think it absolutely must be done before any rate limiting feature goes in.
887 2013-04-08 06:00:46 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: so I hope we don't disagree on that.
888 2013-04-08 06:03:43 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: people will rate limit no matter what we do. having it builtin gives some degree of control over it. (I'm not familiar with the discussion, just playing devil's advocate)
889 2013-04-08 06:04:15 <gmaxwell> And perhaps I'm being pissy, but I'm a little tired of people who do not understand the issues continuing to whine about how simple a rate limiter is.. and I feel like you fed into that with your response and villianized me as a bad guy who doesn't want the poor users to have their meger bandwidth limiter. When that is emphatically not the position I've taken.
890 2013-04-08 06:04:25 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
891 2013-04-08 06:04:28 pera has quit (Quit: leaving)
892 2013-04-08 06:05:09 i2pRelay has joined
893 2013-04-08 06:05:45 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: some guy submitted a pull request that counts up bandwidth usage over cronlike intervals and then just starts ignoring getblock requests. https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2479 and, of course, people are fucking nagging to merge it NOW NOW NOW.
894 2013-04-08 06:06:01 <gmaxwell> ignoring the fact that, as written, it would break the freeking network.
895 2013-04-08 06:06:49 MKCoin has joined
896 2013-04-08 06:07:11 c_k has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
897 2013-04-08 06:07:11 [Author] has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
898 2013-04-08 06:07:11 ahbritto_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
899 2013-04-08 06:07:11 duckybsd has quit (Read error: Network is unreachable)
900 2013-04-08 06:07:15 duckybsd has joined
901 2013-04-08 06:07:18 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: well, that sounds like it might be using the "control over it" in the opposite way than we'd want to XD
902 2013-04-08 06:07:25 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: Nobody is talking about merging it as-is
903 2013-04-08 06:07:28 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
904 2013-04-08 06:07:28 rlifchitz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
905 2013-04-08 06:07:32 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: so that is simply a straw man to argue against
906 2013-04-08 06:07:45 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yes, in fact plenty of people are. I've been asked about it three times today.
907 2013-04-08 06:08:02 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: nobody with pull request capability or a decent code brain
908 2013-04-08 06:08:07 <jgarzik> i.e. relevant
909 2013-04-08 06:08:16 da2ce7 has joined
910 2013-04-08 06:08:19 c_k has joined
911 2013-04-08 06:08:25 rlifchitz has joined
912 2013-04-08 06:08:37 sud3n has joined
913 2013-04-08 06:08:45 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: thank you for clarifying on the pull.
914 2013-04-08 06:08:57 DrAkaman has joined
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930 2013-04-08 06:14:14 Burnin8 has joined
931 2013-04-08 06:16:25 <Burnin8> Okay, srsly guys
932 2013-04-08 06:16:30 <Burnin8> not cool
933 2013-04-08 06:16:37 <Burnin8> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/23136754/spike.png
934 2013-04-08 06:16:39 wallet42 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
935 2013-04-08 06:17:23 <Luke-Jr> Burnin8: what's not cool?
936 2013-04-08 06:17:24 <sivu> its only 1.3MB
937 2013-04-08 06:17:40 <Burnin8> Why the hell is Bitcoin-QT (and the other day, Litecoin-QT) randomly, every so often, absolutely saturating my upstream bandwidth?
938 2013-04-08 06:17:52 <Luke-Jr> Burnin8: uploading the block to peers
939 2013-04-08 06:17:56 <Luke-Jr> it's p2p, what do you expect?
940 2013-04-08 06:18:08 <Burnin8> I expect a reasonably moderated flow, that I can actually manage
941 2013-04-08 06:18:20 <Luke-Jr> seems pretty reasonable to me
942 2013-04-08 06:18:26 <warren> I had to stop bitcoind at my parent's house today because it was screwing up my brother's gaming.
943 2013-04-08 06:18:27 <Burnin8> as every other p2p application on Earth offers
944 2013-04-08 06:18:35 Cryo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
945 2013-04-08 06:18:35 <Burnin8> It's 2AM warren
946 2013-04-08 06:18:40 <Burnin8> That is the precise reason I'm awake
947 2013-04-08 06:18:52 ColinT has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
948 2013-04-08 06:18:53 <Burnin8> Thanks, bitcoin-dev
949 2013-04-08 06:18:57 <Luke-Jr> Burnin8: get a decent router that does QoS
950 2013-04-08 06:19:00 <sivu> you seem to run netbalancer, so limit the upload rate
951 2013-04-08 06:19:13 <Burnin8> sivu: hacky solution which crashes
952 2013-04-08 06:19:23 Insti has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
953 2013-04-08 06:19:27 <RoboTeddy> Burnin8: it's my understanding that people are working on things that will allow for better bandwidth control, so hopefully there will be settings to help you in the future!
954 2013-04-08 06:19:31 <GlitchNZ> Traffic control would be a nice feature - people often forget that bandwidth is prohibitively expensive in some situations/countries
955 2013-04-08 06:19:46 <Burnin8> this was a spike
956 2013-04-08 06:19:55 <Luke-Jr> GlitchNZ: yes, but it's unreasonable to expect it for every application - things like this belong in the OS or router
957 2013-04-08 06:19:56 <Burnin8> the other night it went on for ten minutes
958 2013-04-08 06:20:19 Insti has joined
959 2013-04-08 06:20:29 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
960 2013-04-08 06:20:31 <Luke-Jr> although it might make sense as a bonus feature in Bitcoin clients so they can manage their usage more intelligently
961 2013-04-08 06:20:33 <sivu> warren: in here most ADSL boxes come with preconfigured QoS for almost every online there is
962 2013-04-08 06:20:34 <Burnin8> Upstream is extremely limited for most people
963 2013-04-08 06:20:39 <Luke-Jr> but someone has to write the code for that
964 2013-04-08 06:20:49 <Luke-Jr> Burnin8: are you offering to write intelligent bandwidth controls?
965 2013-04-08 06:20:56 <Burnin8> That is maxing more than 5mbit upstream
966 2013-04-08 06:21:02 i2pRelay has joined
967 2013-04-08 06:21:10 <Burnin8> and that is unreasonable to have occur
968 2013-04-08 06:21:23 <RoboTeddy> I wonder if bitcoin could ever use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Transport_Protocol -- it should yield nicely to normal traffic
969 2013-04-08 06:21:36 <Burnin8> on the prevalent assymetric broadband connections in most countries
970 2013-04-08 06:21:55 <Luke-Jr> Burnin8: there's no reason not to upload as fast as possible in most cases.
971 2013-04-08 06:21:58 <gmaxwell> RoboTeddy: tcp yields nicely ... but unfortunately a lot of residential broadband has really bloated buffers.. so even yielding nicely results in high latency. :(
972 2013-04-08 06:22:04 <GlitchNZ> It would be nice if the magic fairies did it for us - but this is the real world where average Joe has no idea how to manage bandwidth and such tools are not easy accessible for the layman
973 2013-04-08 06:22:20 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: we'll have settings eventually.
974 2013-04-08 06:22:27 <sivu> maybe seedbox providers will need to start providing bitcoind services too
975 2013-04-08 06:22:30 <Burnin8> Luke-Jr: I'm just saying - this severely limits the utility of Bitcoin for people in multiuser environments
976 2013-04-08 06:22:47 <Burnin8> and Litecoin, and the others downstream of your updates
977 2013-04-08 06:22:50 <Luke-Jr> Burnin8: are you offering to write intelligent bandwidth controls? I'm not sure what your goal here is.
978 2013-04-08 06:22:58 <gmaxwell> Burnin8: as a short term solution you can run bitcoin with listening disabled and you'll get no sustained outbound load.
979 2013-04-08 06:23:12 <GlitchNZ> I wish j had a good c++ set up - that would be the sort of thing I could write
980 2013-04-08 06:23:37 <warren> sure, no sustained, but random bursts still happen enough to upset people on the residential connection
981 2013-04-08 06:23:40 <gmaxwell> Burnin8: e.g. bitcoin-qt.exe -listen=0
982 2013-04-08 06:23:46 <Burnin8> gmaxwell: thank you, that is the kind of thing I'm looking for. How do I do that?
983 2013-04-08 06:23:52 <Burnin8> much appreciated
984 2013-04-08 06:23:57 <gmaxwell> warren: I haven't heard any complaints of that.
985 2013-04-08 06:24:01 qeb has quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"])
986 2013-04-08 06:24:15 <gmaxwell> warren: typically so leaf node doesn't relay any blocks at all on a new block.
987 2013-04-08 06:25:03 <gmaxwell> warren: do you have any information, even personal anecdotal to support "upset people on the residential connection"?
988 2013-04-08 06:25:12 GGTT has joined
989 2013-04-08 06:25:21 daktak has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
990 2013-04-08 06:25:30 daktak has joined
991 2013-04-08 06:25:34 <warren> gmaxwell: watching the bandwidth graphs today
992 2013-04-08 06:25:45 <gmaxwell> warren: on a node which isn't listening?
993 2013-04-08 06:25:49 <warren> yes
994 2013-04-08 06:25:53 iddo has joined
995 2013-04-08 06:26:04 iddo has quit (Changing host)
996 2013-04-08 06:26:04 iddo has joined
997 2013-04-08 06:26:09 <Diablo-D3> http://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-mine-bitcoins-2013-3?op=1
998 2013-04-08 06:26:11 <Diablo-D3> man
999 2013-04-08 06:26:13 <Diablo-D3> has anyone seen this article? wtf
1000 2013-04-08 06:26:21 <warren> it wasn't happening often at all, and not for long
1001 2013-04-08 06:26:27 saulimus has joined
1002 2013-04-08 06:26:28 <GlitchNZ> Warren: I live in nz where bandwidth is capped and expensive - even 1gb on a little ow end and plan would hurt quite a bit
1003 2013-04-08 06:26:50 <Diablo-D3> where did that DiabloMiner wizard come from
1004 2013-04-08 06:27:14 <warren> gmaxwell: if I *had* to run it there I'd probably throw in a process-specific iptables rate limit hack, but I didn't have to run it so I just stopped.
1005 2013-04-08 06:27:21 <Burnin8> This is not the first time this has occurred. If you can't get excited at a citizen's bug report, consider my ability to privately transact without characteristic bandwidth shapes... the authorities in this case are demanding to know what's going on
1006 2013-04-08 06:27:24 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: then you perhaps shouldn't be running a full node... just fetiching all the blocks for yourself will use about 1gb/mo now.
1007 2013-04-08 06:27:25 Duly has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1008 2013-04-08 06:27:52 <sivu> waiting for the fiber cable upstream to be installed to my house..
1009 2013-04-08 06:28:32 nagev has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1010 2013-04-08 06:28:33 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1011 2013-04-08 06:28:49 <Burnin8> to aggravate the situation
1012 2013-04-08 06:29:10 i2pRelay has joined
1013 2013-04-08 06:29:13 nagev has joined
1014 2013-04-08 06:29:21 <GlitchNZ> Gmaxwell - I'm a techy and I understand this stuff - but a layman heas about Btc goes to Google and the first thing they find is bitcoinqt within a lot of explanation about this sort of thing
1015 2013-04-08 06:29:22 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1016 2013-04-08 06:29:22 <warren> Diablo-D3: it's great how that article suggests using InstaWallet
1017 2013-04-08 06:29:26 <Burnin8> the bandwidth shows up on port 8333 from source 'system' in this monitoring app, not primarily an identifiable application
1018 2013-04-08 06:29:36 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
1019 2013-04-08 06:29:39 <Burnin8> there are a bunch of other things on 'system'
1020 2013-04-08 06:30:10 <Burnin8> bitcoin-qt itself isn't actually using most of the bandwidth
1021 2013-04-08 06:30:22 <sivu> GlitchNZ: people not technical will not worry about things like upstream saturation or such
1022 2013-04-08 06:30:34 <Burnin8> the remote host is an IPV6 address tat I can't even see in this GUI
1023 2013-04-08 06:30:44 <Burnin8> sivu: Yes. They do.
1024 2013-04-08 06:30:48 <gmaxwell> Burnin8: bitcoin is very much not an anonymity system, it's very identifyable on the network no matter how much bandwidth you're using. If you need to conceal your bitcoin usage please use tor. (I'm not saying this to disagree or downplay _any_ of your comments)
1025 2013-04-08 06:31:16 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: I'm not sure why you're saying that to me.
1026 2013-04-08 06:31:39 PixelCrumbs has joined
1027 2013-04-08 06:31:41 <Burnin8> "What the hell are you doing in there, stop downloading shit, you're killing my connection" is what people not technical will hear from *the other people in the house* on even a high-end-for-the-US FIOS system
1028 2013-04-08 06:31:55 <Burnin8> much less what they're doing on their own
1029 2013-04-08 06:32:26 <Burnin8> it took me four hours and two events to eventually figure out that it was an issue with the peer to peer architecture coded here
1030 2013-04-08 06:32:30 Casimir1904 has joined
1031 2013-04-08 06:32:35 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
1032 2013-04-08 06:32:57 <Burnin8> part of those four hours was worrying if I was compromised or not and someone was VNCing me
1033 2013-04-08 06:33:35 <warren> because VNC uses 5mbit up?
1034 2013-04-08 06:33:48 Duly has joined
1035 2013-04-08 06:34:01 <Burnin8> fuckifIknow, screensharing apps I've used in the past have used that much down
1036 2013-04-08 06:34:32 <Burnin8> not very much shows up as 5mbit up that I don't initiate that I don't know about
1037 2013-04-08 06:34:38 <warren> VNC is usable on dialup modems
1038 2013-04-08 06:35:27 <Burnin8> originating from 'system'
1039 2013-04-08 06:35:46 <Burnin8> anyway
1040 2013-04-08 06:36:22 <Burnin8> would it be practical for me to learn C++ and add this feature as my first contribution to the open source community?
1041 2013-04-08 06:36:34 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1043 2013-04-08 06:37:56 <RoboTeddy> Burnin8: it's probably pretty tricky, since right now bitcoin nodes are bad at intelligently selecting other nodes to sync with
1044 2013-04-08 06:38:00 <RoboTeddy> Burnin8: see discussion here - https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2479
1045 2013-04-08 06:38:36 <warren> Burnin8: for what purpose are you running a full node?
1046 2013-04-08 06:38:39 <gmaxwell> Burnin8: totally an asideâ and unrelated to bitcoin, you should google up the bufferbloat stuff and see if you can improve your router configuration. If you're having problems from bitcoin uploading on a fios connection its because your router is buffering too much.
1047 2013-04-08 06:39:37 <gmaxwell> Burnin8: Getting involved and helping out would be great... though I wouldn't suggest a bandwidth limiter as a first project. :P
1048 2013-04-08 06:40:17 <Burnin8> warren: pushing mined coins from a pool to an exchange, waiting for confirmation, falling asleep
1049 2013-04-08 06:40:47 <warren> Burnin8: how does that require a full client?
1050 2013-04-08 06:40:48 <Burnin8> secondarily: running a p2pool miner
1051 2013-04-08 06:40:54 <warren> ok, that does
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1149 2013-04-08 07:58:23 <melvster1> someone just said we had 3 blocks in a minute ... can it be true?
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1151 2013-04-08 08:00:35 <gmaxwell> melvster1: fast blocks happen from time to time.
1152 2013-04-08 08:00:44 <melvster1> kk
1153 2013-04-08 08:00:48 <gmaxwell> people also get confused by the inaccurate timestamps on blocks.
1154 2013-04-08 08:00:52 <jn> hey guys. i just finished http://realtimebitcoin.info/
1155 2013-04-08 08:01:28 <jn> sipa: TD ^ thanks for the help :)
1156 2013-04-08 08:01:33 <Scrat> jn: that's nice
1157 2013-04-08 08:01:39 <Scrat> but remove user-select none
1158 2013-04-08 08:01:52 <gmaxwell> jn: appears to not work in firefox nightly.
1159 2013-04-08 08:02:04 <gmaxwell> (I just get a little blackbox in the upper left corner)
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1161 2013-04-08 08:02:35 <jn> Scrat: yeah ur right, i'll enable it on the values
1162 2013-04-08 08:03:08 <jn> gmaxwell: strange, what os?
1163 2013-04-08 08:03:44 <Arnavion> Unexpected value scale(2.1315 parsing transform attribute.
1164 2013-04-08 08:03:44 <Arnavion> ...: ",""+this.size,">"].join("")};var o={Size:e,Point:r,Rect:i};if("function"==typ...
1165 2013-04-08 08:03:46 <Arnavion> jn ^
1166 2013-04-08 08:03:48 <Scrat> jn: a pause on mousedown, resume on mouseup would make sense too. so people can paste it around
1167 2013-04-08 08:03:48 <Arnavion> In nightly
1168 2013-04-08 08:03:55 <Scrat> but I guess its better if they paste the entire url
1169 2013-04-08 08:04:10 <Arnavion> which messes up your SVG layout
1170 2013-04-08 08:04:18 <Arnavion> The actual scrolling text and stuff works fine
1171 2013-04-08 08:04:40 <Scrat> hehe, debugging minified js
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1174 2013-04-08 08:05:06 <gmaxwell> jn: linux, I seem scrolling but it's about one inch by two inches. :)
1175 2013-04-08 08:05:06 <jn> haha sec ill turn on dev mode
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1179 2013-04-08 08:08:40 <_dr> jn: nice. seems to work on mac/chrome
1180 2013-04-08 08:09:06 <_dr> tho fly-by speeds seem to slow down and speed up again sometimes
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1189 2013-04-08 08:14:49 <jn> gmaxwell: try your firefox now, i think i fixed it
1190 2013-04-08 08:15:43 <Arnavion> Fixed for me
1191 2013-04-08 08:15:44 <gmaxwell> jn: Cool. Indeed you did. Whats the power estimate based on?
1192 2013-04-08 08:16:40 <jn> gmaxwell: 2.1 MHash/J
1193 2013-04-08 08:16:51 <gmaxwell> jn: I would also note that expressing "money sent" just in USD there may be contrary to the long term interests of Bitcoin. If regulators percieve bitcoin to just be a proxy on USD and not a commodity of unique value they would be more inclined to argue that it would fall under the regulations intended for the movement of dollars. :)
1194 2013-04-08 08:17:05 <gmaxwell> jn: ah. well.. thats .. not so accurate anymore.
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1196 2013-04-08 08:17:31 <jn> what would be a better value?
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1198 2013-04-08 08:18:10 <jn> gmaxwell: you can change currency with the select in the corner
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1200 2013-04-08 08:18:45 <gmaxwell> I might try "Estimated coins sent" and below that "Thats XXX at a price of YYY" ::shrugs::, everyone's a critic. :)
1201 2013-04-08 08:20:07 dbe has joined
1202 2013-04-08 08:20:18 <m0gliE> haha, anybody else see blues brothers dancing ?
1203 2013-04-08 08:20:30 <gmaxwell> jn: I think about 2/3rd to one half the network is at about 2 MH/j and the rest is at 100 MH/j.
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1207 2013-04-08 08:21:43 <gmaxwell> 20TH of rate is avalon batch 1... I think asicminer is something around 15TH/s now? (both are about 100MH/j)
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1209 2013-04-08 08:23:18 <gmaxwell> one way to figure it would be to just say that 25TH is 2MH/j and the rest is 100MH/j whatever it becomes. (e.g. assume all growth is asics).
1210 2013-04-08 08:25:57 <jn> whoa, that's a big increase since i was mining :)
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1212 2013-04-08 08:26:57 <jn> i'll bump the MH/j to 40 and see how it looks
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1215 2013-04-08 08:28:06 <gmaxwell> The 45nm FPGAs are ~20MH/s, the 65nm FPGAs are about 10MH/jâ they're a good chunk of the hashrate too, but I imagine so are some sub 2MH/j gpus. (e.g. botnet mining)
1216 2013-04-08 08:28:36 <gmaxwell> but yea... 66GH now fits in a nice desktop pc sized case.
1217 2013-04-08 08:28:45 <gmaxwell> and draws about 600w. :P
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1220 2013-04-08 08:31:20 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: 10x my entire systems current power draw :|
1221 2013-04-08 08:31:58 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: presumably your system does not put out 66GH/s in bitcoin mining. :P
1222 2013-04-08 08:32:37 <Diablo-D3> ooh ooh@!
1223 2013-04-08 08:33:02 <Diablo-D3> thats...
1224 2013-04-08 08:33:11 <Diablo-D3> 98 7970s!
1225 2013-04-08 08:33:56 * Diablo-D3 PONDERS
1226 2013-04-08 08:34:45 <jn> Scrat: there, debug mode on with source maps :)
1227 2013-04-08 08:34:48 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: it could be done
1228 2013-04-08 08:34:59 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: they have pci-e expanders that do like 12 cards
1229 2013-04-08 08:35:14 <Diablo-D3> so lets say 9 expanders with cards
1230 2013-04-08 08:35:24 <Diablo-D3> then a 10th for plugging all the expanders in
1231 2013-04-08 08:35:36 <gmaxwell> it would be like 20 feet tall. not quite desktop.
1232 2013-04-08 08:35:51 <Diablo-D3> well, it'd be a computer
1233 2013-04-08 08:35:54 <Diablo-D3> and it'd fit on my desktop
1234 2013-04-08 08:35:59 <Diablo-D3> then again, I can land F16s on my desktop
1235 2013-04-08 08:36:28 <Diablo-D3> so
1236 2013-04-08 08:36:37 <jn> gmaxwell: updated it to 40 MH/j now, now showing a modes 1.57 MW
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1240 2013-04-08 08:37:43 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: the problem is powering it
1241 2013-04-08 08:38:05 <jn> i should be happy it's so power efficent now.. but it's much cooler to see it's using like 10 nuclear reactors worth of power
1242 2013-04-08 08:38:10 <Diablo-D3> 275 * 9 * 12 = 29700 watts
1243 2013-04-08 08:38:44 <Diablo-D3> or 248 amps at 120v
1244 2013-04-08 08:39:10 <Diablo-D3> or 17 120v 15a circuits
1245 2013-04-08 08:39:13 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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1247 2013-04-08 08:41:45 <jn> Arnavion: can you try to produce that error again?
1248 2013-04-08 08:42:29 <Arnavion> jn You already fixed it
1249 2013-04-08 08:42:39 <Arnavion> when you fixed it for gmaxwell
1250 2013-04-08 08:42:59 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: so when the hell are 28nm miners coming out =/
1251 2013-04-08 08:43:12 <jn> ah, okay :)
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1255 2013-04-08 08:46:21 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: right now I don't have any mining tools running... I need to configure and compile things to actually work
1256 2013-04-08 08:47:41 n5 has joined
1257 2013-04-08 08:50:09 <Someguy123> are there any small scripts I could use to generate bitcoin/litecoin address keypairs? preferably something in python/perl/PHP
1258 2013-04-08 08:51:42 t7 has joined
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1260 2013-04-08 08:52:41 Toddler has joined
1261 2013-04-08 08:52:53 <Toddler> Hello Everybody
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1267 2013-04-08 08:54:05 <Toddler> I am attempting to learn how to connect to Slush Pool via POST URL and I am choosing between http://api.bitcoin.cz:8332, stratum.bitcoin.cz:3333 and ipv6.stratum.bitcoin.cz:3333.
1268 2013-04-08 08:54:17 t7 has joined
1269 2013-04-08 08:54:25 <GlitchNZ> gmaxwell: sorry about dissapearing before without answering you
1270 2013-04-08 08:54:44 <Toddler> Anyone here could lend me a helping hand as to which URL to use to getwork() from POST ?
1271 2013-04-08 08:55:16 Davincij15 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1272 2013-04-08 08:55:41 <GlitchNZ> Toddler - for a server running on the local machine?
1273 2013-04-08 08:55:58 <Toddler> Hello GlitchNZ
1274 2013-04-08 08:56:27 <Toddler> I am attemtping to create Flash Multi-Platform Single Code Base
1275 2013-04-08 08:56:48 <Toddler> So the code would be run from ...well anything that can run Flash actually.
1276 2013-04-08 08:57:08 <Toddler> I am attempting to using POST to getWork() from Slush Pool.
1277 2013-04-08 08:57:24 <Toddler> and there are like http://api.bitcoin.cz:8332, stratum.bitcoin.cz:3333 and ipv6.stratum.bitcoin.cz:3333 to choose from.
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1281 2013-04-08 08:58:16 <Toddler> Which is the most Basic of them all that still works ?
1282 2013-04-08 08:58:16 <t7> flash miner?
1283 2013-04-08 08:58:20 <Toddler> Yes
1284 2013-04-08 08:58:24 <t7> L. O. L.
1285 2013-04-08 08:58:25 <Toddler> I am attempting to do that
1286 2013-04-08 08:58:31 <Toddler> I know I know
1287 2013-04-08 08:58:41 <GlitchNZ> I expect the one on port 8332 will be exposing the traditional getwork command - but I am more familiar with working with bitcoind, I cant speak for what specific software implementation the mining pools are using
1288 2013-04-08 08:58:51 <warren> Toddler: do you realize how pointless this is?
1289 2013-04-08 08:58:54 <t7> even if you have a botnet of like 1 million PC's it will still be super slow action script and you will make little money
1290 2013-04-08 08:59:09 <Toddler> It will be Slow and Ridiculous, but it's a mentality sort of thing, I just want to know whether it could be done. Universal Binary that would mine.
1291 2013-04-08 08:59:21 <t7> cool :) good luck to you
1292 2013-04-08 08:59:30 <warren> I'm sure somebody wrote this already.
1293 2013-04-08 08:59:38 <GlitchNZ> Universal Binary? is Flash universal now?
1294 2013-04-08 08:59:46 <Arnavion> A miner in Java or JS would be more universal
1295 2013-04-08 08:59:48 <GlitchNZ> When did adobe release the rights?
1296 2013-04-08 08:59:51 AlbertTuring has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
1297 2013-04-08 08:59:57 <Arnavion> and those already exist
1298 2013-04-08 08:59:58 <t7> GlitchNZ, probably the closed you can get
1299 2013-04-08 09:00:25 <Toddler> Well, Dying is a better word :) But to me...I just kind of want to know whether it can be done you know....I don't really have a logic to what I am doing :)
1300 2013-04-08 09:00:45 <GlitchNZ> t7: I believe I was being facetious
1301 2013-04-08 09:01:07 <Toddler> You are both right though.
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1303 2013-04-08 09:01:32 <t7> did anyone write a webCL miner?
1304 2013-04-08 09:01:36 <GlitchNZ> Well, at anyrate Toddler - it matters not whether others find it useful - if you want to do it i say go for it - just don't expect it to be picked up by the masses
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1307 2013-04-08 09:02:03 <Toddler> I am ACTUALLY expecting to be the mockery of the town doing this :)
1308 2013-04-08 09:02:05 Burnin8 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1309 2013-04-08 09:02:05 <t7> yes they did. now thats a money maker (in the future)
1310 2013-04-08 09:02:19 <Toddler> But as I said...it is more of a mentality of seeing that it could be done.
1311 2013-04-08 09:02:24 twobitcoins has joined
1312 2013-04-08 09:02:25 <Toddler> Hacker mentality of sort.
1313 2013-04-08 09:02:27 Burnin8 has joined
1314 2013-04-08 09:02:45 <GlitchNZ> Toddler - not 2 hours ago I was the mockery of the town for attempting to write code that showed flagrant disregard for floating point rounding - it is the programmers life I am affraid
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1317 2013-04-08 09:03:04 <Toddler> ha ha ha
1318 2013-04-08 09:03:05 <Toddler> Here Here
1319 2013-04-08 09:03:08 <Toddler> We are all one :)
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1321 2013-04-08 09:03:17 <warren> Toddler: dude, if you want to implement something pointless, you might as well do it in a way that gets you donations. http://retrominer.com/
1322 2013-04-08 09:03:37 <GlitchNZ> rofl
1323 2013-04-08 09:04:05 <Toddler> No Shit!
1324 2013-04-08 09:04:06 <Toddler> Wow!
1325 2013-04-08 09:04:08 Burninate has joined
1326 2013-04-08 09:04:10 iddo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1327 2013-04-08 09:04:10 <Toddler> haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
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1329 2013-04-08 09:04:25 <warren> Toddler: I think nobody implemented sha256 in minecraft yet. I'm not sure it's possible. Go do that.
1330 2013-04-08 09:04:53 <Toddler> Warren :)
1331 2013-04-08 09:05:41 <Toddler> I have decided that my winter vocation personal project [you know the one where the Boss man isn't asking of you for ;p] will be a Flash Based Slsh Pool Connecting Miner.
1332 2013-04-08 09:05:51 <GlitchNZ> I have a tekkit server - I could look into it
1333 2013-04-08 09:05:57 <GlitchNZ> would take up a lot of space I expect
1334 2013-04-08 09:06:00 <Toddler> So, I shall be the idiot of the season :)
1335 2013-04-08 09:06:29 <Toddler> But that title would be difficult to obtain too, maybe I should also put videos of cat in youtube and be done with it.
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1338 2013-04-08 09:06:38 <GlitchNZ> Ohh - theres an idea - a plugin for minecraft that hooked into the bitcoin network, and let you carry around real bit coins
1339 2013-04-08 09:06:40 <warren> A minecraft miner would be less pointless than a Flash miner.
1340 2013-04-08 09:07:05 <Toddler> Shit, battery is dying.
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1342 2013-04-08 09:07:25 <GlitchNZ> You know what 0- I think that could actually be done
1343 2013-04-08 09:07:49 <Toddler> Seeing that Mincraft runs on PC
1344 2013-04-08 09:07:57 <Toddler> and a lot of Commandline Miner is available
1345 2013-04-08 09:08:07 <Toddler> The only issue here, or Challenge :)
1346 2013-04-08 09:08:17 <Toddler> Would be the GUI front into the Minecraft world :)
1347 2013-04-08 09:08:20 <warren> http://boingboing.net/2010/11/12/working-8-bit-cpu-in.html Here's a 8-bit CPU you can study.
1348 2013-04-08 09:08:39 <GlitchNZ> No Toddler - that is cheating - you should use ingame items like redstone logic gates to implement the miner
1349 2013-04-08 09:09:16 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1350 2013-04-08 09:09:21 <GlitchNZ> but I was thinking more along the lines of a plugin that acted as an in game client - players could have in game bitcoin wallets, and the coins in those wallets could be in game objects
1351 2013-04-08 09:09:22 <jn> There, i submitted realtimebitcoin.info to hackernews. please give it a upvote :)
1352 2013-04-08 09:09:30 <jn> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5510583
1353 2013-04-08 09:09:42 <t7> wake me up when someone writes sha256 in the untyped lambda calculus
1354 2013-04-08 09:09:49 i2pRelay has joined
1355 2013-04-08 09:10:15 <t7> jn, i will upvote on reddit if you post there
1356 2013-04-08 09:11:05 <jn> t7: i don't use reddit, can you post it for me?
1357 2013-04-08 09:11:23 <t7> 'estimated money sent' is that per session?
1358 2013-04-08 09:11:33 <jn> yep
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1386 2013-04-08 09:27:58 <Toddler> That Retro Miner project is really Kickin.
1387 2013-04-08 09:28:02 <Toddler> That guy is so awesome!
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1390 2013-04-08 09:28:44 <t7> jn, someone asked my question on hacker news too :P maybe you could make that more clear
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1393 2013-04-08 09:30:22 <jn> t7: :D yeah
1394 2013-04-08 09:30:41 <jn> i'll add an info button with some faq's
1395 2013-04-08 09:31:11 B0g4r7 has joined
1396 2013-04-08 09:31:17 <jn> short explanation about how bitcoin transactions and change works
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1402 2013-04-08 09:33:26 <Guest74739> hey can anybody recomment a good java bitcoin framework?
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1406 2013-04-08 09:35:01 <t7> bitcoinj?
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1413 2013-04-08 09:44:27 <Toddler_> Is there like an example somewhere on how to use the getwork function ?
1414 2013-04-08 09:44:37 <Toddler_> Using URL POST :D
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1416 2013-04-08 09:45:48 <kinlo> Toddler_: getwork is kinda outdated, you probably don't want to do this any more, pools are moving away from it
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1444 2013-04-08 09:48:07 <Toddler_> But do we have anymore viable options for Basic Elementary one line HTML POST method to get midstate, data, hash1 and target ?
1445 2013-04-08 09:49:03 <sipa> html has nothing to do with it, really
1446 2013-04-08 09:49:17 <Toddler_> Ooo
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1448 2013-04-08 09:49:26 <warren> We had to ban Supa in other channels. You may want to do the same here.
1449 2013-04-08 09:49:39 <Toddler_> Because I am trying to create a simple proof of concept miner in Flash.
1450 2013-04-08 09:49:56 <sipa> why... why... WHY??
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1452 2013-04-08 09:50:17 <kinlo> indeed, why? :)
1453 2013-04-08 09:50:45 <Toddler_> and I would like to use the Standard URLRequest to load a URL and set via POST the id, method, getwork and params.
1454 2013-04-08 09:51:03 <Toddler_> For fun.
1455 2013-04-08 09:51:21 <Toddler_> I just want to know that it can be done.
1456 2013-04-08 09:51:57 <Toddler_> It is completely pointless, ridiculous beyond measure ;p But I just want to see how simple I can approach the mining process.
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1458 2013-04-08 09:52:49 <sipa> can flash do SHA256?
1459 2013-04-08 09:53:00 <GlitchNZ> I think html rpc is kind of the simple standard for client/server comms these days
1460 2013-04-08 09:53:08 <GlitchNZ> i mean httmp sorry
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1462 2013-04-08 09:53:14 <GlitchNZ> *http arrg
1463 2013-04-08 09:53:16 <sipa> http, sure
1464 2013-04-08 09:53:23 <Toddler_> Basically I am now at the stage where the question is: "What is the simplest URL POST method one can use to get the "midstate, data, hash1 and Target".
1465 2013-04-08 09:54:04 <GlitchNZ> my experience with bitcoind is that all of the information you need is available, however the specific information you need requires no less than 3 calls
1466 2013-04-08 09:54:09 <GlitchNZ> :p
1467 2013-04-08 09:54:32 <CodeShark> the biggest shortcoming of the bitcoind API is a lack of a streaming API
1468 2013-04-08 09:54:40 <Toddler_> YES!
1469 2013-04-08 09:54:46 <Toddler_> But as it is.
1470 2013-04-08 09:54:48 <CodeShark> I've been thinking about adding one
1471 2013-04-08 09:54:52 <Toddler_> Say
1472 2013-04-08 09:55:04 <Toddler_> I am running bitcoin-qt -server
1473 2013-04-08 09:55:19 <Toddler_> and I have an android running flash.
1474 2013-04-08 09:55:21 <GlitchNZ> asynchronous is the way these days - streaming is to heavy
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1476 2013-04-08 09:55:44 <CodeShark> ?
1477 2013-04-08 09:55:46 <GlitchNZ> lol - so not just a flash miner, but an arm flash miner - awesome
1478 2013-04-08 09:56:11 <Toddler_> What command does the Flash program have to send to the Server [I know the IP, it is my computer] to get the latest "midstate, data, hash1 and Target".
1479 2013-04-08 09:56:16 <GlitchNZ> whats the object - to see what the smallest possible hash rate on a fully utilized device can be?
1480 2013-04-08 09:56:41 <CodeShark> I don't really know that much about flash
1481 2013-04-08 09:56:59 <GlitchNZ> what sort of hashrate could you get on a nokia 3310?
1482 2013-04-08 09:57:06 <CodeShark> but surely it must have some sort of curl equivalent
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1484 2013-04-08 09:58:51 <CodeShark> GlitchNZ: I don't understand your comment about streaming being too heavy - whether a socket is implemented using synchronous or asynchronous I/O is independent of the protocol itself
1485 2013-04-08 09:59:12 <Toddler_> Ha Ha Ha GlitchNZ :) It's always about Objective to you :D I must admit, I am doing this for funa and laughter, I just want to see that it can be done :)
1486 2013-04-08 09:59:31 <CodeShark> a streaming protocol just means you subscribe to events - and your socket gets written to whenever anything interesting occurs
1487 2013-04-08 09:59:41 <Toddler_> The same way you [or someone here] show me the retro miner and minecraft 8 bit computer ;p
1488 2013-04-08 09:59:52 <Toddler_> The pointlessness of it is its worth ;p
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1491 2013-04-08 10:00:47 <GlitchNZ> I once made a 16 bit mips processor in a circuit simulator - that was about the biggest waste of time I've managed
1492 2013-04-08 10:01:03 <Toddler_> That is actually pretty cool!
1493 2013-04-08 10:01:05 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: hey, did you ever read that URL I gave you?
1494 2013-04-08 10:01:14 <Toddler_> A simulator on top of a simulator.
1495 2013-04-08 10:01:14 <Toddler_> WOw.
1496 2013-04-08 10:01:34 <Diablo-D3> Toddler_: yeah, its nuts
1497 2013-04-08 10:01:39 <CodeShark> can you build a simulator that can simulate all simulators that can't simulate themselves? :)
1498 2013-04-08 10:02:12 <Toddler_> From what I gather, I have the following URL POST Options from Slush: http://api.bitcoin.cz:8332, stratum.bitcoin.cz:3333 and ipv6.stratum.bitcoin.cz:3333.
1499 2013-04-08 10:02:40 <Toddler_> The question is assuming bare technolody from Flash, what is the one that will accept a POST URL from Flash,
1500 2013-04-08 10:03:00 <Dagger2> Toddler_: ipv6.stratum.bitcoin.cz doesn't even work, so that's not an option
1501 2013-04-08 10:03:00 <CodeShark> the server doesn't give a crap what programming language the client is running
1502 2013-04-08 10:03:06 <GlitchNZ> it was slow - the fastest I could get the clock to go was 1Khz - it has 8MB of ram though, the next step was to implement some basic c librararies and see if I could actually run an OS on it, then I realised I had spent about 200 hours on the project, and maybe there was better things to do with my time
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1504 2013-04-08 10:03:13 <CodeShark> as long as it is compliant HTTP it should work
1505 2013-04-08 10:03:24 <Toddler_> Ha Ha Ha CodeShark....That reminds me of the God that makes a Steel bar so strong, he can't bend it....oh wait...
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1507 2013-04-08 10:03:46 <Tom__> hi
1508 2013-04-08 10:04:01 <Toddler_> GlitchNZ
1509 2013-04-08 10:04:03 <Toddler_> One word
1510 2013-04-08 10:04:06 <Tom__> i have a question to yrmory offline wallet
1511 2013-04-08 10:04:09 <Toddler_> You CRAZY!
1512 2013-04-08 10:04:11 <Tom__> armory
1513 2013-04-08 10:04:22 <Dagger2> (for the other two, I guess the choice is between the original bitcoin API and stratum, but I don't know enough about either of them to suggest which you should implement)
1514 2013-04-08 10:04:31 <GlitchNZ> that sounds a lot like the set paradox - does a set of sets that dont contain themselves as elments contain itself?
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1516 2013-04-08 10:05:17 <Toddler_> I think, I am going to go on a lump here and choose "http://api.bitcoin.cz:8332".
1517 2013-04-08 10:05:34 <Tom__> if i generate new BTC address offline and dont make a new backup of the wallet,, dows the old backup, bevore generation new adresses know the new private keys ?
1518 2013-04-08 10:06:00 <Toddler_> Since it uses the 8332 Port, it should return the old style midstate, data, hash1 and target.
1519 2013-04-08 10:06:12 <GlitchNZ> Tom - probably
1520 2013-04-08 10:06:15 <_dr> Tom__: possibly.
1521 2013-04-08 10:06:44 <_dr> the wallet includes a number (~50?) of pregenerated keys iirc. but i would never risk it anyway.
1522 2013-04-08 10:06:45 <Toddler_> From what I gather, no.
1523 2013-04-08 10:06:51 <Tom__> so armory knows from the beginning wich adresses it will generate in the future ?
1524 2013-04-08 10:07:05 <Toddler_> Oh what, I think _dr is right.
1525 2013-04-08 10:07:10 <GlitchNZ> basically yes
1526 2013-04-08 10:07:15 <_dr> Tom__: i'm talking about bitcoind, not armory
1527 2013-04-08 10:07:28 <Toddler_> But what happen is I ALWAYS reBackup my wallet everytime I create a new Address JUST IN CASE.
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1529 2013-04-08 10:07:34 <GlitchNZ> Im with dr - talkin about bitcoind
1530 2013-04-08 10:07:48 <GlitchNZ> Toddler: that is wise
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1533 2013-04-08 10:08:15 <Tom__> well armory sais it is not nevessary to make new backups. but i want to be sure of course and i din't find 100% answers to this
1534 2013-04-08 10:08:21 <GlitchNZ> for bitcoind - it is true to say that any given new address may or may not be covered by a previous backup
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1536 2013-04-08 10:08:56 <_dr> Tom__: if it doesn't explain why i wouldn't trust it either :-)
1537 2013-04-08 10:09:45 <Toddler_> _dr
1538 2013-04-08 10:09:52 <Toddler_> Where is your Holo-Emitter ?
1539 2013-04-08 10:09:58 <GlitchNZ> I dont know how the addresses are generated - but I am sure it is possible that a given private key can probably generate multiple addresses - The wallet stores the primary key, so the question is probably whether a new primary key was generated to create the new address - if yes, it wont be backed up, if not, then it probably is
1540 2013-04-08 10:11:04 <Tom__> GlichNZ: thanks ... ok if it is just one private key with multiple receive adresses this would make sence
1541 2013-04-08 10:11:13 <Toddler_> Well if that is the case the amount of "extra" address that can be generated from the pre-ordain primary keys would be more than suffucient for most people.
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1543 2013-04-08 10:11:48 <GlitchNZ> that is just speculation though - the general rule with security: if in any doubt whatsoever, assume that it is going to do exactly what you dont want it to
1544 2013-04-08 10:12:15 <Tom__> yes of course this is why i want to test that bevore trust it
1545 2013-04-08 10:12:46 <GlitchNZ> Toddler: there will be a limit on the number of keys you would want to generate with a single private key - the more addresses you create, the easier it would be fore someone to brute-force your key, so you would not want to assign large numbers of addresses to a single key
1546 2013-04-08 10:13:17 <GlitchNZ> that is probably why bitcoind only makes about 50 even though it could probably make thousands or even millions
1547 2013-04-08 10:13:18 <Toddler_> How do I past the verification URL to Slushpool then ?
1548 2013-04-08 10:13:37 <Toddler_> "Username:Password:http://api.bitcoin.cz:8332" ?
1549 2013-04-08 10:13:57 <_dr> GlitchNZ: i don't think the 50 keys are derived. they're pre-generated individually.
1550 2013-04-08 10:14:04 <Toddler_> I am not talking about the JSON Data which will be embed in POST, I am talking about the actual URL itself.
1551 2013-04-08 10:14:24 <_dr> you request 51 new keys, send your money there without having backed up your new wallet, all is gone i think\
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1554 2013-04-08 10:15:34 <GlitchNZ> http://user:pass@api.bitcoin.cz:8332/ would be the standard form I expect
1555 2013-04-08 10:15:47 <_dr> using a some seed to generate your data/keys is only advisable if you really know what you are doing. see ARC4+IV-wep screwup
1556 2013-04-08 10:16:44 <GlitchNZ> Well, if someone gueses the key to one address, they get the other 49 for free so you could be right there
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1560 2013-04-08 10:19:03 <Toddler_> I am incoorperating your post into my Flash engine right now GlitchNZ
1561 2013-04-08 10:19:07 <Toddler_> Let's see what happens
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1590 2013-04-08 10:51:54 <Tom__> Armory: Ok i testet it a little bit. Armory seems to create severel private keys automaticly at the beginning and "unlocks them" / shows the receive adresses if you request a new one. The watch only wallet recognized every new adress automatically without having to update it with the new receiving adresses. I will not guarantee that doing new backup after creating more adresses is necessary but im 99,9% sure about that. Neverthele
1591 2013-04-08 10:52:04 <Tom__> ...the wallet file... just in case
1592 2013-04-08 10:53:05 <Tom__> i mean backup a new backup isb't not necessarry
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1596 2013-04-08 10:55:29 <Toddler_> GlitchNZ, I have implemented: request_block_to_solve_object_variables.data = JSON.stringify({id:"1",method:"getwork",params:[]});
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1598 2013-04-08 10:55:49 <Toddler_> and will sent it via the POST URL you entered.
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1607 2013-04-08 10:57:54 <GlitchNZ> ok
1608 2013-04-08 10:58:04 <GlitchNZ> I dont know a lot about the mining side - hope it works
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1610 2013-04-08 10:58:21 <GlitchNZ> time for me to go to sleep - hopefully by BTC hits 200 overnight
1611 2013-04-08 10:59:40 <_dr> daddy needs a boat?
1612 2013-04-08 10:59:52 <m0gliE> 199 :P
1613 2013-04-08 11:00:13 starsoccer_ has joined
1614 2013-04-08 11:00:59 <_dr> does anyone know why leveldb from bitcoin won't build on why openbsd machine despite leveldb being supported on openbsd? i keeps telling me endian defines aren't set, yet port/posix.h definately has <sys/endian.h>
1615 2013-04-08 11:01:16 starsoccer_ is now known as starsoccer
1616 2013-04-08 11:01:29 <_dr> i'll probably investigate myself, but maybe someone else already went through the trouble of compiling 0.8.1 for openbsd
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1647 2013-04-08 11:18:11 <XRPTrader2> any idea why this tx is not confirming? https://blockchain.info/tx/30981e7f4088cdc85d0c6e9f18ff7f58081c7744cdb22ab2a6b931886af73f80
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1656 2013-04-08 11:23:55 <lianj> XRPTrader2: not enough fees. 0.001 for a 28kb tx is a joke
1657 2013-04-08 11:24:19 Guest52398 is now known as atzebadekappe
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1662 2013-04-08 11:33:34 <XRPTrader2> ok
1663 2013-04-08 11:33:52 <XRPTrader2> is there any way to pay more fees on it?
1664 2013-04-08 11:35:16 mercerist has joined
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1667 2013-04-08 11:39:57 <lianj> XRPTrader2: not with bitcoin-qt iirc
1668 2013-04-08 11:40:20 <kinlo> with bitcoin-qt you can increase the fee's by setting an optional extra fee in the preferences
1669 2013-04-08 11:40:45 <lianj> kinlo: i think he means on the current tx. as in resend it with higher fee
1670 2013-04-08 11:41:05 <kinlo> resending is indeed difficult
1671 2013-04-08 11:43:15 <XRPTrader2> ok
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1675 2013-04-08 11:46:28 <lianj> XRPTrader2: did you sent it?
1676 2013-04-08 11:46:31 daybyter has joined
1677 2013-04-08 11:46:42 <XRPTrader2> when can i expect it to be processed? no someone was sending it to me
1678 2013-04-08 11:46:57 <kinlo> let me see if I would mine it
1679 2013-04-08 11:47:44 <kinlo> nope
1680 2013-04-08 11:47:46 <kinlo> mmmz
1681 2013-04-08 11:47:53 <lianj> yea, getting someone to mine it manually would be the only solution, because that tx already build a chain of child txs
1682 2013-04-08 11:48:19 <XRPTrader2> how to do that?
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1688 2013-04-08 11:51:38 <kinlo> you ask a miner
1689 2013-04-08 11:51:38 <XRPTrader2> ok
1690 2013-04-08 11:51:38 <lianj> and prolly pay him ^^
1691 2013-04-08 11:51:39 <kinlo> so let me see why it is not in my list
1692 2013-04-08 11:51:39 winterblack has joined
1693 2013-04-08 11:51:39 <kinlo> hmmz
1694 2013-04-08 11:51:39 <kinlo> I never got it I think
1695 2013-04-08 11:51:39 t7` has joined
1696 2013-04-08 11:51:40 <kinlo> XRPTrader2: so the person sending it to you can he send the tx again?
1697 2013-04-08 11:51:40 <CodeShark> lol- that transaction still hasn't confirmed?
1698 2013-04-08 11:51:40 <CodeShark> heh
1699 2013-04-08 11:51:40 Neskia has joined
1700 2013-04-08 11:51:40 <kinlo> chances are that it is not properly broadcasted
1701 2013-04-08 11:51:40 <lianj> kinlo: i can give you the he
1702 2013-04-08 11:51:40 <lianj> *hex
1703 2013-04-08 11:51:40 <CodeShark> if blockchain.info knows about it w
1704 2013-04-08 11:51:40 <kinlo> bitcoin clients should re-broadcast every half hour
1705 2013-04-08 11:51:40 <CodeShark> if blockchain.info knows about it I would think it propagated well
1706 2013-04-08 11:51:40 <kinlo> lianj: can I inject that in bitcoind with no patches ?? :)
1707 2013-04-08 11:51:41 <lianj> i think sendrawtx would do
1708 2013-04-08 11:51:41 <kinlo> also, it might take time
1709 2013-04-08 11:51:41 <kinlo> perhaps inserting it into some other client might re-broadcast it and increase chances on inclusion
1710 2013-04-08 11:51:57 <lianj> hm, blockexplorer.com and coinbase.com dont have it, so i cant get the json of it (to make binary/hex) out of it
1711 2013-04-08 11:51:58 <kinlo> I didn't receive the transaction in question as far as I can see
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1713 2013-04-08 11:52:25 <CodeShark> hmm, me neither
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1769 2013-04-08 12:37:49 <warren> Anybody know off hand how much memory each UXTO currently occupies, or know where it is in source?
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1784 2013-04-08 12:57:28 <sipa> warren: see the gettxoutsetinfo RPC
1785 2013-04-08 12:58:56 segy has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
1786 2013-04-08 13:01:21 <sipa> warren: mostly see class CCoins and CCoinsView in main.h/.cpp
1787 2013-04-08 13:01:23 Namworld has joined
1788 2013-04-08 13:01:31 <sipa> warren: and txdb.cpp for storage
1789 2013-04-08 13:01:38 <warren> thanks
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1816 2013-04-08 13:22:21 <Brett__> hey
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1820 2013-04-08 13:22:44 <Brett__> I have been told thre may be someone able to help recover .3btc ? :)
1821 2013-04-08 13:24:13 <n1c> Seems unlikely Brett.
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1824 2013-04-08 13:25:41 <Brett__> n1c, i recovered the files but once i loaded the wallet file it was empty
1825 2013-04-08 13:25:57 <Brett__> i still have the wallet adress aswell if that helps and rar file of the wwallet etc
1826 2013-04-08 13:26:13 <n1c> Oh, recover from a backed up wallet?
1827 2013-04-08 13:26:21 <n1c> yeah I guess that might be more possible.
1828 2013-04-08 13:26:28 <n1c> I'm not the right person to ask though sorry.
1829 2013-04-08 13:26:30 vigilyn has joined
1830 2013-04-08 13:26:36 <Brett__> not backked up a friend went through lost partitions and recovered it
1831 2013-04-08 13:26:54 <Brett__> i think its corrupted because it loads 0 btc and i really want to try get my .3 back
1832 2013-04-08 13:27:09 <Brett__> :)
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1842 2013-04-08 13:39:53 Kiba has joined
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1844 2013-04-08 13:40:04 <Kiba> so guys, is this a bitbubble?
1845 2013-04-08 13:40:12 <Kiba> wonder if there's one guy who's buying bitcoin day after day?
1846 2013-04-08 13:40:53 wallet42 has joined
1847 2013-04-08 13:41:16 <t7> Kiba, this is the government destroying bitcoin
1848 2013-04-08 13:41:37 <gavinandresen> t7 is probably correct, the government can't do anything right
1849 2013-04-08 13:42:10 kalleboo is now known as kalleboo|away
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1851 2013-04-08 13:42:42 MC-Droid has joined
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1853 2013-04-08 13:43:41 <MC-Droid> Hmm anyone see amir on the all jazeera thing?
1854 2013-04-08 13:44:09 <ThomasV> I saw him yes
1855 2013-04-08 13:44:14 <Kiba> gavinandresen: the membership price is really expensive
1856 2013-04-08 13:44:17 <Kiba> I want to join!
1857 2013-04-08 13:44:19 <MC-Droid> Introduced him as a principle of intersango too, I thought he quit all that
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1859 2013-04-08 13:44:59 <gavinandresen> Kiba: I'll ask about that at today's Foundation board meeting, they were supposed to get reset....
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1863 2013-04-08 13:46:03 <Kiba> gavinandresen: how does it feel to unexpectly earn a shitload of coins!
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1865 2013-04-08 13:46:22 <Kiba> also, the new york times got some genuinely new stuff instead of repeating the same old same old on bitcoin
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1868 2013-04-08 13:48:21 <_dr> eh, looks like the blockchain just got promoted to data dump http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1bw9xg/data_in_the_blockchain_wikileaks/
1869 2013-04-08 13:48:44 jh2o2389 is now known as help
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1873 2013-04-08 13:51:15 <t7> wikileaks spamming data in blocks, satochi dice spamming TXs. Whats next?
1874 2013-04-08 13:51:22 hf7 has joined
1875 2013-04-08 13:51:28 <sipa> bittorrent over bitcoin?
1876 2013-04-08 13:51:39 normanrichards has joined
1877 2013-04-08 13:51:48 <t7> bitcoin TOR
1878 2013-04-08 13:52:12 <_dr> t7: 1. upload child porn 2. 'omg think of the children' 3. sell sell sell
1879 2013-04-08 13:52:33 <t7> the world most expensive proxy
1880 2013-04-08 13:52:37 <sipa> perhaps swap 2 and 3
1881 2013-04-08 13:52:48 <_dr> :)
1882 2013-04-08 13:53:00 <t7> i can't think of a nice way round that either :(
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1884 2013-04-08 13:53:33 <t7> tis only a matter of time
1885 2013-04-08 13:53:49 <_dr> spv and fat nodes serving the blockchain in the vatican i guess
1886 2013-04-08 13:53:55 <pera> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script#Transaction_with_a_message
1887 2013-04-08 13:54:01 <t7> people could fork out the CP
1888 2013-04-08 13:54:13 <Diablo-D3> why bother
1889 2013-04-08 13:54:25 <Diablo-D3> a CP jpg that fits in under 1k wouldnt be really fap worthy
1890 2013-04-08 13:54:26 <pera> 10k is enough for a low quality jpeg
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1892 2013-04-08 13:55:01 <t7> i think erotic fiction is illegal too, gz that
1893 2013-04-08 13:55:23 <pera> I really feel this is the end of the road and I'm sad about it..
1894 2013-04-08 13:55:31 <Kiba> I wonder if you can write really long code that output the blockchain data as something else
1895 2013-04-08 13:55:32 twobitcoins has joined
1896 2013-04-08 13:55:38 drizztbsd has joined
1897 2013-04-08 13:55:45 <Kiba> like scan all the block data and then output shakespeare verses
1898 2013-04-08 13:56:00 <Kiba> and claim "look, somebody embedded shakespeare quotes!"
1899 2013-04-08 13:56:15 <t7> the alternative is to make sure public keys follow some kinda pattern that makes encoding stuff hard. would reduce the keyspace alot and make them harder to generate
1900 2013-04-08 13:56:33 systemParanoid has joined
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1902 2013-04-08 13:57:03 <t7> but then someone could just write a tool to extract only to useful bits...
1903 2013-04-08 13:57:10 <t7> ok i give up, good luck guiz
1904 2013-04-08 13:57:13 nagev has joined
1905 2013-04-08 13:57:23 <MC-Droid> Embedding shit in the chain isn't new
1906 2013-04-08 13:57:27 twobitcoins_ has joined
1907 2013-04-08 13:57:28 <MC-Droid> Ask luke
1908 2013-04-08 13:57:43 <pera> MC-Droid: it isn't but I never though about using it for CP
1909 2013-04-08 13:57:51 <_dr> strings -n 10 blk00052.dat | grep onion
1910 2013-04-08 13:57:58 <_dr> someone might already have beat us to it
1911 2013-04-08 13:58:13 <MC-Droid> You can email some one some CP and get them thrown in jail
1912 2013-04-08 13:58:21 <MC-Droid> What's the difference
1913 2013-04-08 13:58:24 tyn has joined
1914 2013-04-08 13:58:52 <MC-Droid> Bit coin can't defend well against crazy laws, neither can anything else
1915 2013-04-08 13:58:59 <_dr> MC-Droid: i don't know about CP exactly. but in most countries there's a difference between posessing and serving stuff
1916 2013-04-08 13:59:15 <pera> MC-Droid: if tomorrow The Guardian shows that the blockchain contains CP I am sure that nobody else will download Bitcoin anymore
1917 2013-04-08 13:59:25 <MC-Droid> Their loss
1918 2013-04-08 13:59:32 <pera> this will crash the market, only sk will keep using it
1919 2013-04-08 13:59:39 <HM> what field are people using to store this arbitrary data?
1920 2013-04-08 13:59:53 <HM> script?
1921 2013-04-08 14:00:05 <_dr> HM: http://blockchain.info/tx/5c593b7b71063a01f4128c98e36fb407b00a87454e67b39ad5f8820ebc1b2ad5
1922 2013-04-08 14:00:10 <MC-Droid> It just shows up how stupid the concept of illegal data is
1923 2013-04-08 14:00:19 <pera> MC-Droid: yup
1924 2013-04-08 14:00:30 eckey has joined
1925 2013-04-08 14:00:34 <MC-Droid> Writing a pi generator should get you thrown in jail for producing CP
1926 2013-04-08 14:00:39 <t7> that is a really easy way to crash mtgox
1927 2013-04-08 14:00:50 twobitcoins has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1928 2013-04-08 14:00:52 tyn has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1929 2013-04-08 14:00:59 <t7> it would take like 1 days work and a bit of luck with some news orgs
1930 2013-04-08 14:01:18 <t7> but im not sure the price would rise again so not much to gain
1931 2013-04-08 14:01:21 <_dr> t7: just let us know before you hit 'Send'
1932 2013-04-08 14:01:30 <bVector> ^
1933 2013-04-08 14:01:37 <HM> _dr: what am i looking at?
1934 2013-04-08 14:01:37 normanrichards has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1935 2013-04-08 14:02:05 <_dr> HM: they appear to embed it in the addresses
1936 2013-04-08 14:02:09 kalleboo has quit (away!~kalleboo@i118-18-140-128.s11.a046.ap.plala.or.jp|Excess Flood)
1937 2013-04-08 14:02:22 <HM> but that doesn't create contiguous hunks of data in the blockchain
1938 2013-04-08 14:02:26 tyn has joined
1939 2013-04-08 14:02:29 <HM> e.g. a jpeg image or whatever
1940 2013-04-08 14:03:28 <pera> and with this? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script#Transaction_with_a_message
1941 2013-04-08 14:03:32 <Kiba> bitcoinstore.com is doing pretty well in hyperdeflation
1942 2013-04-08 14:03:54 <Kiba> but then I realized, didn't the coins that bitcoinstore gets goes up?
1943 2013-04-08 14:04:47 adm212 has joined
1944 2013-04-08 14:04:57 <ThomasV> I bought a laptop last week with them. I haven't received it yet, but the coins I sent have doubled :P
1945 2013-04-08 14:05:19 <sipa> pera: non-standard, so you'll have a relatively hard time getting that mined
1946 2013-04-08 14:05:27 <_dr> strings -n 10 blk00052.dat | grep child
1947 2013-04-08 14:05:51 <HM> reminds me of namecoin, which wasn't restricted to DNS like records
1948 2013-04-08 14:05:56 <HM> kind of a free-for-all
1949 2013-04-08 14:06:47 <Kiba> ThomasV: do you regret?
1950 2013-04-08 14:06:54 Muis has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1951 2013-04-08 14:06:59 <ThomasV> Kiba: no
1952 2013-04-08 14:07:15 <ThomasV> I need a laptop now
1953 2013-04-08 14:07:16 andreas_ has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1954 2013-04-08 14:07:39 <ThomasV> the only thing I regret is that they do not ship faster
1955 2013-04-08 14:07:50 <HM> just hope they ship at all
1956 2013-04-08 14:07:54 <ThomasV> heh
1957 2013-04-08 14:08:00 <pera> sipa: you mean waiting that someone pick your tx from the pool?
1958 2013-04-08 14:08:21 <sipa> pera: such transactions will not even be relayed by (normal) nodes on the network
1959 2013-04-08 14:08:22 <Kiba> ThomasV: you could just purchase laptop in dollars
1960 2013-04-08 14:08:26 m0mchil has joined
1961 2013-04-08 14:08:28 <pera> what if you are mining with an asic?
1962 2013-04-08 14:08:29 <sipa> pera: you'll have to get it to a specific miner
1963 2013-04-08 14:08:43 <sipa> pera: and probably pay him specifically for that
1964 2013-04-08 14:08:50 <ThomasV> Kiba: I don't have enough dollars
1965 2013-04-08 14:09:07 Muis has joined
1966 2013-04-08 14:09:11 <Kiba> you could cash out..but that takes 3 days or something like that
1967 2013-04-08 14:09:16 <Kiba> so it works to our advantage!
1968 2013-04-08 14:09:39 [\\\] has joined
1969 2013-04-08 14:09:49 <HM> I'm glad to see the hash rate has increased a lot over the last few months
1970 2013-04-08 14:10:23 <ThomasV> Kiba: when I can buy something with btc, I favor that
1971 2013-04-08 14:10:24 <pera> sipa: but can't you add any transaction you want if you are the miner? with an avalon would take a few hours..
1972 2013-04-08 14:10:34 <sipa> pera: of course
1973 2013-04-08 14:11:07 <sipa> pera: but there can't be many people with the capability to quickly mine blocks
1974 2013-04-08 14:11:13 <Kiba> bitcoin is like the most liquid form of money!
1975 2013-04-08 14:11:44 <MC-Droid> Bitcoinstore faces double dose of hyperdeflation
1976 2013-04-08 14:11:51 <MC-Droid> Bit coins and electronics
1977 2013-04-08 14:11:56 <MC-Droid> Still doing ok
1978 2013-04-08 14:13:03 i2pRelay has joined
1979 2013-04-08 14:13:27 <pera> with a 60gh/s miner you get 3 blocks per day I think
1980 2013-04-08 14:13:47 <HM> gribble can tell you
1981 2013-04-08 14:13:49 <sipa> until there are many of those :)
1982 2013-04-08 14:14:00 <sipa> there are only 144 blocks per day, no matter what
1983 2013-04-08 14:14:09 <pera> yup
1984 2013-04-08 14:14:36 <sipa> so claiming that high-hashrate devices help isn't true, as not many people can have those without the statement becoming invalid
1985 2013-04-08 14:14:59 mogri is now known as kaniini
1986 2013-04-08 14:15:06 systemParanoid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1987 2013-04-08 14:15:12 <pera> but now it's the perfect time for people who owns an avalon to include a new block with files..
1988 2013-04-08 14:15:14 Muis has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1989 2013-04-08 14:15:54 <sipa> i hope the few who do are a bit more responsible than that
1990 2013-04-08 14:16:03 <pera> I hope so too!
1991 2013-04-08 14:16:33 Descry has joined
1992 2013-04-08 14:16:39 <pera> but let's say that someone wants include cp into the blockchain
1993 2013-04-08 14:17:08 <pera> that could be really really bad
1994 2013-04-08 14:17:22 systemParanoid has joined
1995 2013-04-08 14:17:27 <HM> you'd be exempt from prosecution just like ISPs all the time you were ignorant of it
1996 2013-04-08 14:17:30 <_dr> pera: there already is
1997 2013-04-08 14:17:33 <pera> maybe a hard fork will occure
1998 2013-04-08 14:17:42 <pera> _dr?
1999 2013-04-08 14:17:43 <_dr> pera: at least links to onion addresses containing it
2000 2013-04-08 14:18:09 <pera> :( torchan?
2001 2013-04-08 14:18:09 jh2o2389 has joined
2002 2013-04-08 14:18:12 <_dr> pera: just do a cd ~/.bitcoin/blocks && strings -n 10 blk00052.dat | grep child
2003 2013-04-08 14:18:13 * t7 is considering which real-time data sets he can use for betting (that are very cheap). Current contenders: London Fire and rescue services...
2004 2013-04-08 14:18:25 <t7> i think i might get in trouble for causing fires
2005 2013-04-08 14:18:36 <pera> _dr: I don't have a full blockchain in this computer :p
2006 2013-04-08 14:19:51 <_dr> pera: http://pastebin.com/8uAUSCAq
2007 2013-04-08 14:20:27 Mr_G has joined
2008 2013-04-08 14:20:28 <_dr> let's just hope nobody cares
2009 2013-04-08 14:20:30 <pera> holly shit
2010 2013-04-08 14:20:33 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2011 2013-04-08 14:20:51 <pera> well, most people will not understand this for a while
2012 2013-04-08 14:21:00 <HM> they're just onion addresses
2013 2013-04-08 14:21:07 <t7> :O
2014 2013-04-08 14:21:18 <t7> sell sell sell
2015 2013-04-08 14:21:26 i2pRelay has joined
2016 2013-04-08 14:21:34 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2017 2013-04-08 14:22:28 <Kiba> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22064534
2018 2013-04-08 14:22:35 * Kiba initially misread the title as...
2019 2013-04-08 14:22:52 <Kiba> "Skynet trojan forces Bitcoin mining, security firm warns"
2020 2013-04-08 14:23:20 n5 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021 2013-04-08 14:24:31 <pera> t7: this is not going to have any effect on the price until some newspaper publish it
2022 2013-04-08 14:24:51 <flyingkiwiguy> or some politco gets hold of it
2023 2013-04-08 14:24:58 <_dr> Kiba: cpu miner, wow :D
2024 2013-04-08 14:25:01 <t7> pera, yeah but you wanna sell before then
2025 2013-04-08 14:25:51 <_dr> yeah so, just forget what i said. all made up!
2026 2013-04-08 14:27:31 Descry has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2027 2013-04-08 14:27:45 m0mchil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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2033 2013-04-08 14:31:29 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Sayonara)
2034 2013-04-08 14:31:38 <pera> Is there any solution for this?
2035 2013-04-08 14:32:06 <pera> blockchain pruning? :s
2036 2013-04-08 14:33:05 <t7> need the majority todo it
2037 2013-04-08 14:33:27 <adm212> are there any good intro articles to programming bit coin transactions?
2038 2013-04-08 14:33:38 <t7> adm212, the wiki is helpful
2039 2013-04-08 14:33:52 zw has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2040 2013-04-08 14:34:08 <adm212> good idea
2041 2013-04-08 14:34:54 zw has joined
2042 2013-04-08 14:35:24 Tantadruj has quit (Client Quit)
2043 2013-04-08 14:35:50 <adm212> thx wiki is very good
2044 2013-04-08 14:36:27 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2045 2013-04-08 14:37:00 [\\\] has quit ()
2046 2013-04-08 14:37:06 xHire has joined
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2048 2013-04-08 14:38:17 i2pRelay has joined
2049 2013-04-08 14:39:01 <MC-Droid> Could a new Genesis blog ck
2050 2013-04-08 14:39:30 <MC-Droid> Block be forged from the utxo of the last bit coin 1 block
2051 2013-04-08 14:40:07 <MC-Droid> To create bitcoin2 if needed
2052 2013-04-08 14:40:10 Phoebus has joined
2053 2013-04-08 14:40:42 <MC-Droid> Like worst case scenario where bitcoin has a fatal flaw
2054 2013-04-08 14:40:46 <bitcoiner> bitcoin 2.0?
2055 2013-04-08 14:41:01 <xHire> I would like to report one minor bug: when I call "walletpassphrase" command with low value (like 10 secs in my case) and then I call some other routine that accidentally lasts more then those 10 seconds, bitcoin-qt crashes with SIGABRT â I guess this isn't the best way to handle errors caused by user's commands
2056 2013-04-08 14:42:27 robocoin has quit (Quit: (â¯Â°â¡Â°ï¼â¯ï¸µ â»ââ»)
2057 2013-04-08 14:44:07 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
2058 2013-04-08 14:45:48 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2059 2013-04-08 14:46:06 adm212 has left ()
2060 2013-04-08 14:46:42 i2pRelay has joined
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2065 2013-04-08 14:47:53 <Kiba> hmmmmmmmmmmmm
2066 2013-04-08 14:47:54 Kiba has left ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
2067 2013-04-08 14:48:34 graingert has joined
2068 2013-04-08 14:48:34 graingert has quit (Changing host)
2069 2013-04-08 14:48:34 graingert has joined
2070 2013-04-08 14:48:58 <BlueMatt> ahh the 15-hour post-hackathon sleep...what a wonderful thing
2071 2013-04-08 14:49:23 [\\\] has joined
2072 2013-04-08 14:49:28 robocoin has joined
2073 2013-04-08 14:51:26 <n1c> Heh
2074 2013-04-08 14:51:31 <n1c> Which hackathon?
2075 2013-04-08 14:51:39 <BlueMatt> local one for students
2076 2013-04-08 14:52:32 neo2 has joined
2077 2013-04-08 14:53:10 adm212 has joined
2078 2013-04-08 14:54:00 systemParanoid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2079 2013-04-08 14:54:08 <BlueMatt> while I was asleep...price jumped another 50...
2080 2013-04-08 14:54:14 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2081 2013-04-08 14:55:07 i2pRelay has joined
2082 2013-04-08 14:56:04 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
2083 2013-04-08 14:56:09 E_mE has joined
2084 2013-04-08 14:59:07 Belxjander has joined
2085 2013-04-08 15:00:45 <MC-Droid> !ticker
2086 2013-04-08 15:00:46 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 194.00000, Best ask: 194.11100, Bid-ask spread: 0.11100, Last trade: 194.00000, 24 hour volume: 90644.42691534, 24 hour low: 152.25000, 24 hour high: 194.00001, 24 hour vwap: 171.89366
2087 2013-04-08 15:00:50 <MC-Droid> Fuck me
2088 2013-04-08 15:00:55 Xeno-Genesis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2089 2013-04-08 15:01:08 <MC-Droid> Fuck is going on
2090 2013-04-08 15:01:17 <n1c> Hype machine.
2091 2013-04-08 15:01:20 Descry has joined
2092 2013-04-08 15:01:21 bernard75 has quit ()
2093 2013-04-08 15:02:08 weex has joined
2094 2013-04-08 15:02:09 weex has quit (Changing host)
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2097 2013-04-08 15:02:44 normanrichards has joined
2098 2013-04-08 15:02:45 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
2099 2013-04-08 15:03:36 i2pRelay has joined
2100 2013-04-08 15:03:37 denisx has joined
2101 2013-04-08 15:03:42 MobGod has joined
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2104 2013-04-08 15:03:51 MobGod has joined
2105 2013-04-08 15:04:40 <helo> all of the opponents are firmly into the "then they fight you" phase, and it doesn't seem to matter in the least
2106 2013-04-08 15:04:46 <graingert> MC-Droid: this is for the #bitcoin channel
2107 2013-04-08 15:05:02 <helo> yeah... sorry -.-
2108 2013-04-08 15:05:03 <graingert> MC-Droid: hype and wonderment
2109 2013-04-08 15:05:06 <graingert> :D
2110 2013-04-08 15:05:17 <graingert> join the #bitcoin-party
2111 2013-04-08 15:05:22 ducch_ is now known as Happzz
2112 2013-04-08 15:05:23 Happzz has quit (Changing host)
2113 2013-04-08 15:05:23 Happzz has joined
2114 2013-04-08 15:05:34 <MC-Droid> You mean #speculation
2115 2013-04-08 15:07:02 bernard75 has joined
2116 2013-04-08 15:07:02 bernard75 has quit (Changing host)
2117 2013-04-08 15:07:02 bernard75 has joined
2118 2013-04-08 15:07:14 Descry has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2119 2013-04-08 15:07:56 FredEE has joined
2120 2013-04-08 15:08:59 zrad has joined
2121 2013-04-08 15:09:00 viperhr has joined
2122 2013-04-08 15:09:24 john5223 has joined
2123 2013-04-08 15:09:42 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2124 2013-04-08 15:09:49 n1c has left ()
2125 2013-04-08 15:10:23 grau has joined
2126 2013-04-08 15:10:32 <lianj> joined #bitcoin for first time. way to nosiy, already parted
2127 2013-04-08 15:10:46 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2128 2013-04-08 15:10:49 <Diablo-D3> Margret Thatcher is dead.
2129 2013-04-08 15:11:00 <E_mE> WOOHOOO!
2130 2013-04-08 15:11:05 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2131 2013-04-08 15:11:13 <E_mE> possibly why people are buying coins, thank coins thatchers ead
2132 2013-04-08 15:11:16 <E_mE> dead*
2133 2013-04-08 15:11:21 copumpkin has joined
2134 2013-04-08 15:11:30 BlackPrapor has joined
2135 2013-04-08 15:11:35 <MC-Droid> Yeah she dead
2136 2013-04-08 15:11:55 <E_mE> I'm awaiting the party at Trafalgar square ;)
2137 2013-04-08 15:11:58 i2pRelay has joined
2138 2013-04-08 15:13:18 mercerist has joined
2139 2013-04-08 15:13:27 <MC-Droid> Its going to be kettled like fuck
2140 2013-04-08 15:13:28 Muis has joined
2141 2013-04-08 15:13:36 ColinT has joined
2142 2013-04-08 15:13:37 mercerist has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2143 2013-04-08 15:14:05 mercerist has joined
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2148 2013-04-08 15:15:09 <Mr_G> i got klient crashed and it is now wants to rebuild block database
2149 2013-04-08 15:15:13 <Mr_G> how long it will take?
2150 2013-04-08 15:15:22 <Mr_G> it already doing 30 minutes
2151 2013-04-08 15:15:22 <sipa> depends on hardware
2152 2013-04-08 15:15:33 <sipa> how far is it?
2153 2013-04-08 15:15:33 <Mr_G> its not maxing out cpus
2154 2013-04-08 15:15:46 <sipa> it won't max out CPU
2155 2013-04-08 15:15:48 <Mr_G> sipa i'm on bitcoind and se only y,y,y,y,y
2156 2013-04-08 15:15:52 <sipa> except at the end
2157 2013-04-08 15:15:55 <Mr_G> in console
2158 2013-04-08 15:16:00 <sipa> Mr_G: which block are you at? (getinfo RPC)
2159 2013-04-08 15:16:28 <Mr_G> bitcoind getinfo
2160 2013-04-08 15:16:28 <Mr_G> error: couldn't connect to server
2161 2013-04-08 15:16:32 <Mr_G> it not responding to rpc
2162 2013-04-08 15:16:37 <sipa> heh
2163 2013-04-08 15:16:42 <Mr_G> while doing it
2164 2013-04-08 15:16:47 <sipa> it should
2165 2013-04-08 15:16:50 <sipa> what is happening in debug.log?
2166 2013-04-08 15:17:12 <sipa> tail -f ~/.bitcoin/debug.log
2167 2013-04-08 15:17:36 <Mr_G> nothing
2168 2013-04-08 15:17:51 duckybsd has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2169 2013-04-08 15:17:55 <sipa> then it's not running :0
2170 2013-04-08 15:18:10 <Mr_G> but i still see a lot of y in terminal
2171 2013-04-08 15:18:19 daveluke_ has quit (Quit: daveluke_)
2172 2013-04-08 15:18:21 <sipa> y?
2173 2013-04-08 15:18:28 <Mr_G> yes only y
2174 2013-04-08 15:18:35 <Mr_G> can i terminate it?
2175 2013-04-08 15:18:37 <sipa> did you type 'yes' ?
2176 2013-04-08 15:18:41 <Mr_G> yes
2177 2013-04-08 15:18:42 <sipa> at the terminal?
2178 2013-04-08 15:18:47 <Mr_G> yes
2179 2013-04-08 15:18:50 <sipa> yes is a program that produces a list of y's
2180 2013-04-08 15:19:07 <sipa> if you want to rebuild the index, you need to start bitcoind with the -reindex flag
2181 2013-04-08 15:19:10 <Mr_G> and it started to show a lot of lines with y
2182 2013-04-08 15:19:28 <sipa> yes, that's expected if you run 'yes', that's what the program does: produce a list of y's infinitely
2183 2013-04-08 15:19:29 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2184 2013-04-08 15:19:50 <sipa> press ctrl-c to stop it
2185 2013-04-08 15:19:51 <Mr_G> ok terminated
2186 2013-04-08 15:19:56 <Mr_G> runing bitcoind -reindex
2187 2013-04-08 15:19:59 <Mr_G> yes?
2188 2013-04-08 15:20:02 <sipa> indeed
2189 2013-04-08 15:20:21 <Mr_G> ok, started
2190 2013-04-08 15:20:26 i2pRelay has joined
2191 2013-04-08 15:21:03 Darin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2192 2013-04-08 15:21:12 <Mr_G> bitcoind -reindex
2193 2013-04-08 15:21:13 <Mr_G> Bitcoin server starting
2194 2013-04-08 15:21:13 <Mr_G> btc@home:~$ bitcoind getinfo
2195 2013-04-08 15:21:13 <Mr_G> error: couldn't connect to server
2196 2013-04-08 15:21:34 <sipa> what is in debug.log?
2197 2013-04-08 15:21:42 <Mr_G> one sec
2198 2013-04-08 15:22:16 <Mr_G> log shows he is procesing blocks
2199 2013-04-08 15:22:19 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2200 2013-04-08 15:22:20 <Mr_G> a lot on new rows
2201 2013-04-08 15:22:26 <sipa> then getinfo should work
2202 2013-04-08 15:23:34 <Mr_G> "blocks" : 133063,
2203 2013-04-08 15:23:49 <Mr_G> half the way
2204 2013-04-08 15:25:53 Michail1_ is now known as Michail1
2205 2013-04-08 15:26:29 <sipa> 90% of the time will be spent in the last 10% of the blocks
2206 2013-04-08 15:27:58 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2207 2013-04-08 15:28:00 kazimir42 has joined
2208 2013-04-08 15:28:06 <Mr_G> but i will be faster the redowloading chain
2209 2013-04-08 15:28:53 i2pRelay has joined
2210 2013-04-08 15:29:12 <sipa> it won't redownload; it's just processing what blocks you already have
2211 2013-04-08 15:29:14 <helo> love the blockchain, hate the blocks
2212 2013-04-08 15:29:39 <sipa> Mr_G: adding -dbcache=1000 or so will speed up processing too (the number is in megabytes of RAM)
2213 2013-04-08 15:29:40 coingenuity is now known as BCB`
2214 2013-04-08 15:30:03 BCB` is now known as `BCB
2215 2013-04-08 15:30:13 `BCB is now known as coingenuity
2216 2013-04-08 15:32:04 <Mr_G> sipa is it possible to increase now in the process?
2217 2013-04-08 15:32:24 <sipa> yes, stop it, and restart
2218 2013-04-08 15:32:29 <Mr_G> ok
2219 2013-04-08 15:32:34 <sipa> don't pass -reindex again; it will continue where it left off
2220 2013-04-08 15:32:39 <Mr_G> ok
2221 2013-04-08 15:33:00 bernard75 has left ()
2222 2013-04-08 15:33:11 <MC-Droid> Did you ever work out a good dbcache value
2223 2013-04-08 15:33:13 PixelCru_ has joined
2224 2013-04-08 15:33:29 ThomasV has joined
2225 2013-04-08 15:33:30 <MC-Droid> Or do you just set as high as you can on a machine
2226 2013-04-08 15:33:49 <sipa> above several gigabytes won't help anymore
2227 2013-04-08 15:34:02 <sipa> and above several 100 MiB probably not much either
2228 2013-04-08 15:35:00 <MC-Droid> Default is like 100 right
2229 2013-04-08 15:35:08 <MC-Droid> Why not set it higher
2230 2013-04-08 15:35:18 <sipa> default is 25
2231 2013-04-08 15:35:36 <sipa> why not higher: people complain about the memory it uses
2232 2013-04-08 15:35:56 <sipa> some auto-guessing based on hardware may be useful, but is hard to do in a cross-platform way
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2262 2013-04-08 15:53:49 <HM> ahhh
2263 2013-04-08 15:53:53 <HM> it's so much nicer when you have a convenient configuration file for a project
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2268 2013-04-08 15:55:46 <HM> Need a new user config option? add it with 2 lines of code, job done. lovely
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2281 2013-04-08 16:03:19 <bitnumus> private keys dont look too large in wallet import format
2282 2013-04-08 16:03:46 <bitnumus> its still impossible to import randomly generated keys all day long in respect of probability being too great to hit a valid key?
2283 2013-04-08 16:04:12 ligar has joined
2284 2013-04-08 16:04:44 <lianj> there are only about 10 million keys used already, and look how much the 256bit keyspace isâ¦
2285 2013-04-08 16:05:17 <lianj> you can try, but its way easier to find a block by yourself than this
2286 2013-04-08 16:05:18 <lupine> you're better off using your sha256 hashing ability to mine, I guess
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2291 2013-04-08 16:06:55 <bitnumus> hmm
2292 2013-04-08 16:07:09 MWNinja_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2293 2013-04-08 16:07:10 <bitnumus> what about if everyone using fiat currency used bitcoin
2294 2013-04-08 16:07:17 <bitnumus> how would that reduce the probability
2295 2013-04-08 16:07:41 <bitnumus> i've been told its astronomical, but (just setting up a cold storage wallet) and looking at the privkey, its not very long
2296 2013-04-08 16:07:57 <lupine> bitnumus, 2^256 is a very large number
2297 2013-04-08 16:08:29 <sipa> bitnumus: you do understand that doubling the length means squaring the number of possibilities?
2298 2013-04-08 16:08:35 <sipa> bitnumus: so its exponential in the length
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2300 2013-04-08 16:09:15 <bitnumus> they import keys are 52 long
2301 2013-04-08 16:09:15 <lupine> bitnumus, given 7 billion humans right now, shared equally, that's ~1.65x10^67 addresses each
2302 2013-04-08 16:09:44 <lupine> some will be collisions, of course. the actual keys are 160-bit
2303 2013-04-08 16:09:54 <bitnumus> lol, i've had this discussion before i know, just call be paranoid ;)
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2305 2013-04-08 16:10:03 <lupine> so "just" 2x10^38 each
2306 2013-04-08 16:10:19 <bitnumus> how fast can 2x10^38 key be improted?
2307 2013-04-08 16:10:40 <lupine> given current technology, never
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2313 2013-04-08 16:12:07 <lupine> that's 4x10^39 bytes of data - or about 4x10^24 petabytes of data
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2315 2013-04-08 16:12:26 <sipa> bitnumus: put it this way: if the current global bitcoin hash power were to be converted to key mining, and every satoshi was stored in a separate address, you may reasonably start to have a chance of hitting a used address after about 300 times the age of the universe
2316 2013-04-08 16:13:05 <bitnumus> lol
2317 2013-04-08 16:13:10 <lupine> numbers this large are not intuitive
2318 2013-04-08 16:13:11 meLon_ is now known as meLon
2319 2013-04-08 16:13:13 <bitnumus> okok, i wont ask again i promise
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2325 2013-04-08 16:13:55 <lianj> sipa: "and every satoshi was stored in a separate address" avg wise it almost like this now
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2329 2013-04-08 16:14:51 <adm212> the thing about current technology is it changes extremely fast
2330 2013-04-08 16:14:56 <HM> lianj: 1 satoshi = 100millionth of a bitcoin
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2332 2013-04-08 16:15:00 <sipa> lianj: i know, but i try to use descriptions corresponding to as large numbers as possible
2333 2013-04-08 16:15:24 <lianj> HM: true, sorry mixed up satoshi and btc
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2336 2013-04-08 16:17:00 <lianj> i used to try once a day to get the block 1 tx key, just for the universe lottery kick of it oO :D
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2342 2013-04-08 16:18:47 <HM> Hmm
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2347 2013-04-08 16:21:12 <lupine> probability is a cruel mistress
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2355 2013-04-08 16:26:29 <wallet42> what if the qt part from bitcoin would be replaced by a "webview" with html5 / js / css as frontend?
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2357 2013-04-08 16:27:04 <wallet42> i bet there would be a lot more contributions, since there are so many html / js / css hackers in the world
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2359 2013-04-08 16:27:30 <wallet42> a bit like "phonegap" for the iphone / android / windowsphone coding area
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2361 2013-04-08 16:27:47 <wallet42> its also as portabe
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2363 2013-04-08 16:27:59 <lupine> you can just point a javascript + html + css client at the json-rpc interface, you know
2364 2013-04-08 16:28:06 <lupine> I used that as my primary interface for a while
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2369 2013-04-08 16:28:47 <wallet42> exactly
2370 2013-04-08 16:28:54 <wallet42> the backend is there already
2371 2013-04-08 16:29:00 <BlueMatt> same, tcatm wrote an excellent client like 2 years ago
2372 2013-04-08 16:29:07 <BlueMatt> but...I dont think anyone has touched it since
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2376 2013-04-08 16:30:02 <Jere_Jones> https://github.com/tcatm/bitcoin-js-remote
2377 2013-04-08 16:30:35 <BlueMatt> yep, last commit - 2 years ago
2378 2013-04-08 16:31:02 <wallet42> ah looks good but sad that the last commit was 2 years ago
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2380 2013-04-08 16:31:43 <wumpus> wallet42: we already replaced wxwindows with qt for kind of the same reasoning, and there are zillions of qt coders in the world, the problem is not the number of people able to contribute
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2382 2013-04-08 16:31:56 <lupine> if only it were written in a language with loads of potential contributors, etc
2383 2013-04-08 16:33:20 <BlueMatt> also, code review bandwidth is a serious problem, so more contributors != more commits
2384 2013-04-08 16:33:22 twobitcoins_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2385 2013-04-08 16:33:23 <wumpus> bitcoin is just not a very popular open source project to contribute to, most people wanting to hack on bitcoin want to implement their own client in their favourite language
2386 2013-04-08 16:33:44 <wumpus> also true BlueMatt
2387 2013-04-08 16:34:00 <BlueMatt> how many barely-used hardly-tested alternate implementations do we have now?
2388 2013-04-08 16:34:32 <graingert> BlueMatt: it's like linux distributions, more of them than users
2389 2013-04-08 16:34:41 <wumpus> woudln't know exactly, but there's a few in c, at least one in python, one in haskell, one in erlang, etc...
2390 2013-04-08 16:34:44 <BlueMatt> heh
2391 2013-04-08 16:34:57 <BlueMatt> I think I know of >3 in python
2392 2013-04-08 16:35:08 <BlueMatt> like 2 full implementations of java
2393 2013-04-08 16:35:10 <BlueMatt> even on in js
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2395 2013-04-08 16:35:24 <BlueMatt> e
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2403 2013-04-08 16:37:24 <BlueMatt> wallet42: you should port bitcoinjs to fully client-side
2404 2013-04-08 16:38:47 <Jere_Jones> That would be sweet
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2410 2013-04-08 16:42:03 <Jere_Jones> BlueMatt: I've been looking for an excuse to play with AngularJS on something interesting. You just gave me my next project. Thanks!
2411 2013-04-08 16:42:12 <BlueMatt> heh, have fun
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2413 2013-04-08 16:43:08 <Belxjander> Jere_Jones make a browser plugin?
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2417 2013-04-08 16:43:56 <Jere_Jones> I'm thinking just an html page that you load up into your browser that is a front end for bitcoind.
2418 2013-04-08 16:44:03 <wallet42> well i'm in webdev for a while now
2419 2013-04-08 16:44:11 pgvoorhees has joined
2420 2013-04-08 16:44:21 <wallet42> and the important thing i learned is devs have no clue about design
2421 2013-04-08 16:44:27 <wallet42> and designers have no clue about hacking
2422 2013-04-08 16:44:36 <wallet42> (in most cases)
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2424 2013-04-08 16:44:47 <wumpus> be very careful with cross-side scripting attacks and such
2425 2013-04-08 16:44:51 <Jere_Jones> True that. Me included. "Bootstraping Design" has made my stuff less ugly though.
2426 2013-04-08 16:45:09 <wallet42> thats why its best for any project to split backend + js and html + css
2427 2013-04-08 16:45:17 <BlueMatt> Jere_Jones: front-end for bitcoind? naa, do a full bitcoind implementation in client-side js...
2428 2013-04-08 16:45:27 <Jere_Jones> LOL
2429 2013-04-08 16:45:31 <Jere_Jones> Uh... no.
2430 2013-04-08 16:45:34 <BlueMatt> Jere_Jones: we have tcatm's front-end already
2431 2013-04-08 16:45:49 <BlueMatt> bitcoinjs implemented the full stuff in JS in node.js
2432 2013-04-08 16:45:51 <BlueMatt> port it to client-side
2433 2013-04-08 16:46:06 <Jere_Jones> But it uses python to do the json-rpc stuff, right?
2434 2013-04-08 16:46:10 <HM> damn convenient that the maximum number of Satoshi's fits inside the mantissa of a double
2435 2013-04-08 16:46:22 <Jere_Jones> I was thinking of doing the json-rpc direct from the browser.
2436 2013-04-08 16:46:26 <BlueMatt> no, it doesnt use bitcoind at all, it implements the whole thing
2437 2013-04-08 16:46:32 <tcatm> Jere_Jones: It uses python to proxy the RPC stuff to avoid cross domain requests.
2438 2013-04-08 16:46:43 <Jere_Jones> That's what I thought.
2439 2013-04-08 16:46:45 <BlueMatt> oh, yes tcatm's thing does
2440 2013-04-08 16:47:05 <tcatm> It could connect directly to a bitcoind but the browser won't allow it to.
2441 2013-04-08 16:47:27 <Jere_Jones> I would like to work around that.
2442 2013-04-08 16:47:30 <Jere_Jones> I think I can.
2443 2013-04-08 16:47:53 <tcatm> You could patch bitcoind to support CORS, but then nothing would stop websites from accessing the wallet (maybe a password...)
2444 2013-04-08 16:48:08 <CodeShark> signing transactions inside a browser might make a lot of sense - but doing block chain verification and relay from a browser is just idiotic :p
2445 2013-04-08 16:48:09 brson has joined
2446 2013-04-08 16:48:17 <wallet42> yes you can but its best practise to not work around cross site requests
2447 2013-04-08 16:48:44 <wumpus> CodeShark: it doesn't have to be a full node
2448 2013-04-08 16:48:50 <wallet42> i'm thinking about a modular version
2449 2013-04-08 16:49:02 <wallet42> you either send you tx trough blockchain.info/sendtx
2450 2013-04-08 16:49:17 <wallet42> or you send it to the bitcoind running on 127.0.0.1
2451 2013-04-08 16:49:27 <BlueMatt> CodeShark: yea, but doing an spv node in client-side js would be awesome
2452 2013-04-08 16:49:31 <wallet42> you download the client
2453 2013-04-08 16:49:38 <BlueMatt> ChromeOS bitcoin client
2454 2013-04-08 16:49:46 <wallet42> in and select "full node" or "simple node"
2455 2013-04-08 16:50:02 <wallet42> simple node just serves the frontend as a browser
2456 2013-04-08 16:50:22 <wallet42> and full node also downloads the blockchain
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2459 2013-04-08 16:51:10 <wallet42> whats important is that the frontend js can create, and sign tx
2460 2013-04-08 16:51:14 <BlueMatt> preferably simple node would still do spv
2461 2013-04-08 16:51:15 <Jere_Jones> I don't think I, personally, would implement a full node in js.
2462 2013-04-08 16:51:16 Belxjander has joined
2463 2013-04-08 16:51:37 <wallet42> it finds the available outputs either trough a blockchain.info api or by asking the bitcoind on localhost
2464 2013-04-08 16:52:00 <BlueMatt> wallet42: or bitcoind via p2p over a regular p2p network (not rpc)
2465 2013-04-08 16:52:04 <Jere_Jones> The main thing I would try to add are showing *all* the addresses and being able to create transactions by choosing the inputs.
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2467 2013-04-08 16:52:15 <BlueMatt> and you cant really do that through rpc unless rpc has your privkey
2468 2013-04-08 16:52:33 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2469 2013-04-08 16:52:36 <wallet42> right⦠you can send tx to a peer whitout having downloaded the chain right?
2470 2013-04-08 16:52:40 <BlueMatt> Jere_Jones: that would actually be useful, I know I and a few others use rpc manually to create most of our txn
2471 2013-04-08 16:52:59 Grouver has joined
2472 2013-04-08 16:53:00 <BlueMatt> wallet42: no, I meant to get available outputs, but yes, that too
2473 2013-04-08 16:53:04 i2pRelay has joined
2474 2013-04-08 16:53:22 <wallet42> so the lightweight bitcoind would just be a relay
2475 2013-04-08 16:53:41 <CodeShark> p2p requires full duplex sockets - and developers seem to have all but forgotten what they are ever since the advent of the web and HTTP :p
2476 2013-04-08 16:53:47 <BlueMatt> you cant get list of available outputs to a given pubkey/address over rpc
2477 2013-04-08 16:53:57 <BlueMatt> the p2p network is more designed for that
2478 2013-04-08 16:54:01 <wallet42> websockets ftw :D
2479 2013-04-08 16:54:10 <wallet42> and any designers can create an awesome frontend
2480 2013-04-08 16:54:10 <wallet42> very usable
2481 2013-04-08 16:54:16 <Jere_Jones> BlueMatt... that could be a problem.
2482 2013-04-08 16:54:22 <CodeShark> if I weren't so busy with other projects, I'd be working on a streaming API for bitcoind
2483 2013-04-08 16:54:28 <CodeShark> a trusted streaming API
2484 2013-04-08 16:54:30 <HM> streaming api?
2485 2013-04-08 16:54:37 <HM> a stream for what?
2486 2013-04-08 16:54:37 <BlueMatt> Jere_Jones: you can if they are to an address bitcoind has, but not if they are to some other address (ie client-side privkeys)
2487 2013-04-08 16:54:45 <CodeShark> so you can subscribe to events, HM
2488 2013-04-08 16:54:55 <wumpus> have you looked at the 0mx pull CodeShark?
2489 2013-04-08 16:54:59 <wumpus> 0mq
2490 2013-04-08 16:55:05 <CodeShark> no
2491 2013-04-08 16:55:08 <diki> Any websites similar to gobittest.appspot.com and bitcointools.appspot.com?
2492 2013-04-08 16:55:08 <wumpus> I think that's exactly supposed to do that
2493 2013-04-08 16:55:11 <wallet42> well available outputs are public knowlege
2494 2013-04-08 16:55:25 <HM> the 0mq proposal just wraps the existing json rpc interface
2495 2013-04-08 16:55:38 <wallet42> there will always be webservices that allow you to find them for given adresses
2496 2013-04-08 16:55:41 <HM> i almost upset gmaxwell yesterday mentioning it lol
2497 2013-04-08 16:55:43 <wumpus> not only HM, it's also possible to subscribe to events such as nwe block
2498 2013-04-08 16:55:50 <HM> right, sure
2499 2013-04-08 16:55:57 BlackPrapor has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2500 2013-04-08 16:56:06 <BlueMatt> wallet42: not really, running one of those sites is very expensive...
2501 2013-04-08 16:56:08 <CodeShark> does it support full duplex sockets? or do you need to reinitiate a connection each time there's something?
2502 2013-04-08 16:56:10 <wumpus> that's not possible with json rpc, only polling
2503 2013-04-08 16:56:34 <wumpus> CodeShark: yes, 0mq is very advanced socket routing, it supports almost everything you can think of
2504 2013-04-08 16:56:44 <CodeShark> I'm not talking about 0mq - I'm talking about the pull
2505 2013-04-08 16:56:51 <HM> CodeShark: it uses a Request/response socket for the JSON wrapping and a separate PUB/SUB socket for events
2506 2013-04-08 16:57:16 <wumpus> but why was gmaxwellupset about it?
2507 2013-04-08 16:57:44 <HM> wumpus: oh he wasn't aware it had been refactored is all. He thought i was being a moron lol
2508 2013-04-08 16:57:55 <wumpus> lol ok
2509 2013-04-08 16:57:55 <CodeShark> are you talking about 2415?
2510 2013-04-08 16:58:03 <HM> yeah
2511 2013-04-08 16:58:13 <wumpus> as I understood consensus is weakly towards merging it
2512 2013-04-08 16:58:14 <gmaxwell> I wasn't upset about it. I was totally confused because the patch got trippled in size between when I saw it and I talked to HM about it. :P
2513 2013-04-08 16:58:30 <gmaxwell> So HM was saying it did all this extra stuff and I thought he was on drugs.
2514 2013-04-08 16:58:37 <wumpus> hehehe
2515 2013-04-08 16:59:11 <HM> I'm wondering why the 0mq proposal has to be in the main daemon. If it wraps the JSON interface then it can surely be moved out of process. Just add the new notify pub/sub stuff actually in to the daemon?
2516 2013-04-08 16:59:14 <wumpus> I think it's exactly what bitcoin integration needs
2517 2013-04-08 16:59:16 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: hey I want your opinion
2518 2013-04-08 16:59:52 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: if I fed keccak a really large sponge size
2519 2013-04-08 16:59:55 <Diablo-D3> like, fucking massive
2520 2013-04-08 17:00:10 <wallet42> so the best way to get my bitcoin-html5 replacement for bitcoin-qt into the default client is creating a fork, develop a fronteng with my designers and then announce it on bitcointalk, then if enough ppl like it create a pull request?
2521 2013-04-08 17:00:13 <Scrat> like, as big as my mom?
2522 2013-04-08 17:00:19 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: would it be useful like scrypt is to ltc?
2523 2013-04-08 17:00:33 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2524 2013-04-08 17:01:08 <CodeShark> wallet42: I think it would be better to just write the front end as a separate process and stick a websockets API on bitcoind :)
2525 2013-04-08 17:01:15 <saracen> Isn't it already relatively easy to just create a custom node to listen to addr, inn and blocks? I would have assumed connecting that up to a full node you trust would be safe in terms of not having to verify it too.
2526 2013-04-08 17:01:22 <saracen> inv*
2527 2013-04-08 17:01:27 i2pRelay has joined
2528 2013-04-08 17:01:29 saulimus has joined
2529 2013-04-08 17:01:53 <wumpus> replacement for bitcoin-qt?
2530 2013-04-08 17:01:57 <HM> CodeShark: C++ websocket libraries are fairly naff, websocketpp/++ is the best out there atm I believe
2531 2013-04-08 17:01:59 <wumpus> no way :-)
2532 2013-04-08 17:02:02 manoliyo has joined
2533 2013-04-08 17:02:30 <CodeShark> I've written a listener that provides a websockets API to bitcoin using websocketpp - it's decent :)
2534 2013-04-08 17:02:41 <HM> nice
2535 2013-04-08 17:03:00 <CodeShark> it would be even nicer if it ran in-process with bitcoind, though
2536 2013-04-08 17:03:10 <HM> no no
2537 2013-04-08 17:03:23 <CodeShark> lol - I know some people don't like that - but it makes deployment a lot simpler
2538 2013-04-08 17:03:29 <wallet42> yes bitcoind should just implement a webserver serving the frontend with html/js/img
2539 2013-04-08 17:03:30 Burninate has quit (Read error: No route to host)
2540 2013-04-08 17:03:36 <wumpus> I really prefer a program, not something that runs in my browser... I don't trust my browser
2541 2013-04-08 17:03:43 <wallet42> insteand of the qt code
2542 2013-04-08 17:03:44 <wumpus> no webserver in bitcoind
2543 2013-04-08 17:03:47 Burninate has joined
2544 2013-04-08 17:03:47 <wumpus> eek
2545 2013-04-08 17:03:49 <HM> if the main daemon just uses plain old sockets, then you can have multiple out of process daemons providing JSON RPC, ZeroMQ and Websockets
2546 2013-04-08 17:04:15 <wallet42> the frontend would be a WebView
2547 2013-04-08 17:04:25 <wallet42> like the phonegap app for iphone/android
2548 2013-04-08 17:04:32 MC-Droid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2549 2013-04-08 17:04:34 <wallet42> so not the default browser
2550 2013-04-08 17:04:37 <wumpus> splitting the wallet and block chain daemon would make more sense right now
2551 2013-04-08 17:04:50 <HM> if you provide JSON RPC over HTTP you might need to integrate that with Websockets anyway, so both can run on port 80
2552 2013-04-08 17:04:59 kombinezon has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130401192816])
2553 2013-04-08 17:04:59 <HM> (or 443 for SSL)
2554 2013-04-08 17:05:18 systemParanoid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2555 2013-04-08 17:05:25 sud3n has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2556 2013-04-08 17:05:28 <saracen> I think bitcoinj is way more modular in that respect, you don't have to add a wallet from what I've read
2557 2013-04-08 17:05:28 <CodeShark> WebSockets only carry slightly more overhead than regular TCP sockets - but can go through firewalls and can be negotiated via HTTP
2558 2013-04-08 17:05:28 pera has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2559 2013-04-08 17:05:30 <wallet42> i think if the frontend was html5/css the feature development would be so much faster
2560 2013-04-08 17:05:50 cosurgi has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2561 2013-04-08 17:05:58 <HM> CodeShark: sure, as long as you use SSL, because various HTTP proxies lose their shit when you negotiate up
2562 2013-04-08 17:06:09 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2563 2013-04-08 17:06:09 <wallet42> true
2564 2013-04-08 17:06:17 Belxjander has joined
2565 2013-04-08 17:06:18 <wallet42> but you alwas should prefer https
2566 2013-04-08 17:06:24 <wallet42> or wss://
2567 2013-04-08 17:06:40 <CodeShark> it's sorta funny that websockets were designed to allow web developers to do the same kinds of stuff that C programmers have been doing since the 80's :p
2568 2013-04-08 17:06:45 <HM> CodeShark: got github for that websocketpp work?
2569 2013-04-08 17:06:48 <wallet42> hrhr
2570 2013-04-08 17:07:05 <wumpus> CodeShark: +1
2571 2013-04-08 17:07:13 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2572 2013-04-08 17:07:13 <wumpus> CodeShark: and badly at that
2573 2013-04-08 17:07:19 agricocb has joined
2574 2013-04-08 17:07:20 <wallet42> its a shame for html that ther is still no more HTTP verbs for <form method="">
2575 2013-04-08 17:07:34 <CodeShark> I intend to put it up eventually, HM
2576 2013-04-08 17:07:38 <CodeShark> I have the p2p listener on github
2577 2013-04-08 17:07:41 <jgarzik> wumpus: RE: splitting the wallet and block chain daemon.... working on it! https://github.com/jgarzik/bitcoin/tree/fork
2578 2013-04-08 17:07:42 <CodeShark> but not the websocket server
2579 2013-04-08 17:07:44 <wallet42> which would allow true REST
2580 2013-04-08 17:07:49 <wumpus> jgarzik: cool!
2581 2013-04-08 17:07:53 wrabbit has joined
2582 2013-04-08 17:07:55 <Scrat> CodeShark: kinda the deal with browsers lately, reinventing the wheel is their thing
2583 2013-04-08 17:07:55 systemParanoid has joined
2584 2013-04-08 17:08:06 <HM> yeah, websockets is really a bunch of hacks to allow port&ip sharing with HTTP and get around firewalls. The random masking and SHA handshake in there just stops people tricking websocket clients in to sending arbitrary guff to HTTP servers.
2585 2013-04-08 17:08:11 manoliyo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2586 2013-04-08 17:08:23 <jgarzik> wumpus: trying to split between "P2P node + networking code" and "everything else (wallet, RPC, GUI, ...)"
2587 2013-04-08 17:08:35 <jgarzik> wumpus: "blockchain engine" is a sub-process of the "everything else" process.
2588 2013-04-08 17:08:41 <wumpus> jgarzik: that's the way to go
2589 2013-04-08 17:08:47 <jgarzik> wumpus: Should work on Windows as well as Unix, too.
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2591 2013-04-08 17:09:06 <jgarzik> _pipe recipe for fork-like behavior:
2592 2013-04-08 17:09:06 <jgarzik> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/edze9h7e%28v=vs.80%29.aspx
2593 2013-04-08 17:09:22 <jgarzik> (though as sipa pointed out, it could be network sockets in the future, not just pipes)
2594 2013-04-08 17:09:40 <wallet42> jgarzik: whats your fork about?
2595 2013-04-08 17:09:42 <jgarzik> fork+pipe is my "simple" first step
2596 2013-04-08 17:09:51 i2pRelay has joined
2597 2013-04-08 17:09:55 <jgarzik> wallet42: read what I just wrote :)
2598 2013-04-08 17:10:19 <jgarzik> wallet42: "fork" is fork(2) in the Unix multi-process context
2599 2013-04-08 17:10:20 <HM> I'm poking at a Thrift API that wraps the JSON RPC and can round-robin multiple daemons, but I might put it on halt if there's all this other multiprocess and 0mq work going on.
2600 2013-04-08 17:10:47 <jgarzik> HM: I was happy to see somebody tackling 0mq
2601 2013-04-08 17:11:17 <flyingkiwiguy> HM: one issue with multiple daemons is multiple indepdendent wallets
2602 2013-04-08 17:11:32 <wallet42> so. should just implement bitcoind in brainfuck
2603 2013-04-08 17:11:49 <wallet42> there i fixed it
2604 2013-04-08 17:11:58 PrinceCortex has joined
2605 2013-04-08 17:12:15 <jgarzik> flyingkiwiguy: ?
2606 2013-04-08 17:12:24 alphaguru has quit ()
2607 2013-04-08 17:12:29 <jgarzik> flyingkiwiguy: BTW, current bitcoin.git has framework and some code for multiple wallets
2608 2013-04-08 17:12:29 <flyingkiwiguy> well, nultipel daemons can't share the same wallet, right?
2609 2013-04-08 17:12:38 <jgarzik> flyingkiwiguy: correct
2610 2013-04-08 17:12:43 <CodeShark> isn't there a C++ -> brainf!@$ compiler out there somewhere? :)
2611 2013-04-08 17:12:48 <wumpus> jgarzik: so "fork and pipe" is just the beginning, it leaves option the option for different, indepent processes later, so that multiple wallets can connect to one blockchain
2612 2013-04-08 17:12:57 <flyingkiwiguy> so if one daemon is doing most of the sending, it will likely run out of funds
2613 2013-04-08 17:12:58 <jgarzik> wumpus: yes
2614 2013-04-08 17:13:32 <flyingkiwiguy> how does one cleverly (and securely) load balance funds between multiple daemons jgarzik?
2615 2013-04-08 17:13:38 <wumpus> you wouldn't want multiple wallet daemons sharing one wallet, there would be no advantage in that
2616 2013-04-08 17:13:45 <jgarzik> flyingkiwiguy: You would clearly balance that, with multi-sig, multiple daemons running a independent networking sites, or cold wallets, or a different key distribution (and import/export) scheme, or.....
2617 2013-04-08 17:13:53 <jgarzik> flyingkiwiguy: it is a question of key management
2618 2013-04-08 17:13:56 <flyingkiwiguy> yeah
2619 2013-04-08 17:14:06 <HM> flyingkiwiguy: sure, but if you can list available addresses over RPC (getaddressesbyaccount), then it's fairly easy to build a map for wallet functions
2620 2013-04-08 17:14:26 daveluke has joined
2621 2013-04-08 17:15:16 <jgarzik> flyingkiwiguy: so a bitcoind is simply something that tracks transactions, or creates new transactions, given a set of keys. you can destroy, replicate, or move keys between bitcoind's as you like. whatever your security scheme requires.
2622 2013-04-08 17:15:27 <jgarzik> no need to move _funds_ across bitcoind
2623 2013-04-08 17:15:27 <flyingkiwiguy> I guess you'd want to manage an independent DB of keys
2624 2013-04-08 17:15:30 <jgarzik> just keys
2625 2013-04-08 17:15:32 <jgarzik> yes
2626 2013-04-08 17:15:44 <jgarzik> no need to create new transactions, just to move funds between two keys _you_ control
2627 2013-04-08 17:15:55 <flyingkiwiguy> ok
2628 2013-04-08 17:15:58 richcollins has joined
2629 2013-04-08 17:16:19 <richcollins> Can you copy everything inside of the .bitcoin folder to avoid downloading and verifying blockchain on a new device?
2630 2013-04-08 17:16:20 <flyingkiwiguy> makes it easy to take bitcoind nodes out of service to clean up their wallet bload as well
2631 2013-04-08 17:16:28 <wumpus> richcollins: yes
2632 2013-04-08 17:16:41 <richcollins> wumpus: Cross platform? (OS X -> Linux)
2633 2013-04-08 17:16:41 <flyingkiwiguy> richcollins: yes, but you shoudl just down bitcoind cleanly first
2634 2013-04-08 17:16:43 <wumpus> richcollins: just don't copy the wallet
2635 2013-04-08 17:16:53 <flyingkiwiguy> *bloat
2636 2013-04-08 17:16:53 <jgarzik> Bitcoins themselves are not private data, stored on the local node. Effectively, all bitcoins are stored in the cloud.
2637 2013-04-08 17:16:58 <richcollins> wumpus: Wallet is empty so its fine
2638 2013-04-08 17:17:04 <jgarzik> It is simply the Right To Spend Bitcoins that is stored (keys).
2639 2013-04-08 17:17:13 <jgarzik> well, the Ability To Spend Bitcoins.
2640 2013-04-08 17:17:15 <wumpus> richcollins: doesn't work that way, they will hav ethe same private keys in their pool
2641 2013-04-08 17:17:17 <richcollins> wumpus: Just want a safer environment when I import keys
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2643 2013-04-08 17:17:43 <richcollins> wumpus: I don't
2644 2013-04-08 17:17:45 <richcollins> understand
2645 2013-04-08 17:17:58 <richcollins> I'm creating a clean install
2646 2013-04-08 17:18:00 <flyingkiwiguy> jgarzik: would you recommend importing the keys into multiple bitcoind instances and using the same keys concurrently?
2647 2013-04-08 17:18:05 <jgarzik> richcollins: copy sure... but run -checkblocks and -checklevel, to verify the local data is intact
2648 2013-04-08 17:18:09 <richcollins> but I copy everything but the wallet.dat from my old install?
2649 2013-04-08 17:18:11 <jgarzik> richcollins: IMO never blindly trust
2650 2013-04-08 17:18:18 i2pRelay has joined
2651 2013-04-08 17:18:24 <wumpus> yes, everything but the wallet.dat
2652 2013-04-08 17:18:25 <richcollins> jgarzik: Hrm won't that take a long time?
2653 2013-04-08 17:18:25 <jgarzik> Never blindly trust a copy.... especially for the public data, that is so easy to verify.
2654 2013-04-08 17:18:41 <jgarzik> richcollins: yes, but probably not as long as you think. maybe a few hours.
2655 2013-04-08 17:18:58 <jgarzik> richcollins: sans ECDSA, I can verify the full chain in a few minutes, with picocoin
2656 2013-04-08 17:19:23 <jgarzik> it's not as expensive as the Initial Block Download (IBD) makes people think.l
2657 2013-04-08 17:19:56 <flyingkiwiguy> jgarzik: would you recommend importing the keys into multiple bitcoind instances and using the same keys concurrently?
2658 2013-04-08 17:20:05 <jgarzik> flyingkiwiguy: difficult to answer :) Importing keys into multiple bitcoind instances at the same time makes it very easy to screw up.
2659 2013-04-08 17:20:11 <flyingkiwiguy> yup
2660 2013-04-08 17:20:14 <jgarzik> flyingkiwiguy: patience, grasshopper. typing as fast as I can.
2661 2013-04-08 17:20:23 <flyingkiwiguy> heh, sorry
2662 2013-04-08 17:20:25 <richcollins> jgarzik: I'm importing keys and then sending balance to another address. Do I need a verified block chain for this?
2663 2013-04-08 17:20:29 <richcollins> What are risks?
2664 2013-04-08 17:20:42 <richcollins> My concern (although unlikely) is compromised OS X
2665 2013-04-08 17:20:50 <jgarzik> richcollins: Yes, you want a verified blockchain.
2666 2013-04-08 17:20:51 pgvoorhees has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2667 2013-04-08 17:21:08 <jgarzik> richcollins: I doubt -checkblocks=0 will take very long.
2668 2013-04-08 17:21:09 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2669 2013-04-08 17:21:09 <richcollins> So I'm going to install to Ubuntu Live, import my keys and then send to my cold storage
2670 2013-04-08 17:21:16 Belxjander has joined
2671 2013-04-08 17:21:36 <jgarzik> richcollins: check out https://bitcoinarmory.com/ if doing cold storage. It sits on top of bitcoind.
2672 2013-04-08 17:21:48 <jgarzik> Armory is pretty nice for that stuff.
2673 2013-04-08 17:21:53 <richcollins> jgarzik: I'm just using encrypted wallet
2674 2013-04-08 17:21:58 <richcollins> any reason not to?
2675 2013-04-08 17:22:02 PrinceCortex has left ("Leaving")
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2677 2013-04-08 17:22:11 <jgarzik> richcollins: that's what I do (bitcoind only, encrypted wallet) ...
2678 2013-04-08 17:22:14 <richcollins> Encrypted wallet from bitcoin-qt that was never connected to the network
2679 2013-04-08 17:22:14 <jgarzik> richcollins: just noting the options
2680 2013-04-08 17:22:25 gavinandresen has joined
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2682 2013-04-08 17:22:25 gavinandresen has joined
2683 2013-04-08 17:22:26 <jgarzik> richcollins: yep
2684 2013-04-08 17:22:36 <richcollins> How do I run -checkblocks=0
2685 2013-04-08 17:22:45 <richcollins> is that an option when you start bitcoin-qt from the command line?
2686 2013-04-08 17:22:58 john5223 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2687 2013-04-08 17:23:23 <wumpus> yes
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2690 2013-04-08 17:24:14 <jgarzik> flyingkiwiguy: Think about the basic tasks you must accomplish: (1) observe when bitcoins are received on a key you control (payment receiption) and (2) sending bitcoins to a key you do not control (payment sending). bitcoind is simply a vehicle that lets you watch and spend from a set of keys. How to best distribute that set of keys is a question that, ultimately, bitcoind cannot answer for you. Each person's secur
2691 2013-04-08 17:24:14 <jgarzik> ity needs are different.
2692 2013-04-08 17:24:26 <richcollins> OK so I start bitcoin-qt for the first time so it creates ~/.bitcoijn, I then quit and copy over all state from my OS X machine except wallet.dat and then start again with checkblocks=0
2693 2013-04-08 17:24:30 cultav1x has joined
2694 2013-04-08 17:24:41 <richcollins> then I use importprivkey to import the keys from my paper wallet
2695 2013-04-08 17:24:53 <richcollins> then I can send to my cold storage addresses �
2696 2013-04-08 17:25:12 <jgarzik> richcollins: you don't even need to turn on a computer, to send bitcoins _to_ your cold storage addresses
2697 2013-04-08 17:25:25 <jgarzik> richcollins: you only need computers (bitcoind) to spend cold storage bitcoins
2698 2013-04-08 17:25:50 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2699 2013-04-08 17:25:57 Line_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2700 2013-04-08 17:26:00 MacbookAir has joined
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2702 2013-04-08 17:26:41 <diki> ;;seen slush
2703 2013-04-08 17:26:42 <gribble> slush was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 week, 4 days, 8 hours, 6 minutes, and 46 seconds ago: <slush> not really :(
2704 2013-04-08 17:26:44 <richcollins> jgarzik: Umm how do I send a tx to the network if my computer isn't turned on ...
2705 2013-04-08 17:26:45 i2pRelay has joined
2706 2013-04-08 17:27:07 <diki> richcollins:It's called offline transactions.
2707 2013-04-08 17:27:09 <wumpus> richcollins: he means you don't have to have acomputer with the wallet you're sending to on
2708 2013-04-08 17:27:17 <diki> Though of course you still need to connect to the internet to broadcast it.
2709 2013-04-08 17:27:17 <richcollins> oh right
2710 2013-04-08 17:27:34 <richcollins> but I do need one on for the wallet I'm sending from
2711 2013-04-08 17:27:41 <wumpus> richcollins: obviously you need a computer to send from, unless you intend to do ecdsa in your head and use morse code to get it unto the network :)
2712 2013-04-08 17:27:56 <diki> wumpus:You mean vibrations :D
2713 2013-04-08 17:27:57 systemParanoid has joined
2714 2013-04-08 17:27:58 <richcollins> I need to import my paper wallet keys in a wallet and send them to cold storage
2715 2013-04-08 17:28:00 <wumpus> hehe
2716 2013-04-08 17:28:05 <jgarzik> richcollins: If the key for 1BrufViLKnSWtuWGkryPsKsxonV2NQ7Tcj (my donation address) is sitting in a bank vault on paper, people can still send bitcoins to that address.
2717 2013-04-08 17:28:14 <richcollins> right I understand that
2718 2013-04-08 17:28:33 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: "Fix futex shutdown issue with _exit(). Instrument with printk()" uhh...we dont have a printk in user-land ;)
2719 2013-04-08 17:28:40 <richcollins> but I need to import my paper wallet keys and send them to my new cold storage addresses
2720 2013-04-08 17:28:47 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: heh
2721 2013-04-08 17:28:51 <diki> BlueMatt:and what is futex?
2722 2013-04-08 17:29:14 <wumpus> linux specific sync primitive
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2724 2013-04-08 17:29:30 <richcollins> But I do need a full blockchain to send, right?
2725 2013-04-08 17:29:40 <diki> richcollins:thin clients exist
2726 2013-04-08 17:29:41 <richcollins> otherwise the client can't verify my balance
2727 2013-04-08 17:29:45 <jgarzik> richcollins: Remember that your computer does not store bitcoins, only keys. You can generate a new cold storage address key, print it out, and destroy the digital copy, all without touching your offline computer.
2728 2013-04-08 17:29:51 <diki> Not sure if they can do offline transactions
2729 2013-04-08 17:30:10 <richcollins> diki: I was hoping to just use bitcoin-qt, import private keys and send
2730 2013-04-08 17:30:11 <jgarzik> richcollins: you can check the balance at websites like blockchain.info or blockexplorer.com
2731 2013-04-08 17:30:20 <jgarzik> richcollins: no need to turn on your own computer :)
2732 2013-04-08 17:30:29 <richcollins> but I don't think it will work because bitcoin-qt seems to verify balance
2733 2013-04-08 17:30:43 systemParanoid has quit (Client Quit)
2734 2013-04-08 17:30:45 <richcollins> jgarzik: Right but I want to move my bitcoin balance out of my current paper wallet
2735 2013-04-08 17:31:08 <richcollins> and into a cold storage wallet that has more addresses and wasn't generated using client side javascript that I don't trust ;-)
2736 2013-04-08 17:31:42 <CodeShark> how does having more addresses in the cold storage wallet help?
2737 2013-04-08 17:31:54 <CodeShark> you mean having a bunch of pregenerated keys?
2738 2013-04-08 17:31:57 ner0 has joined
2739 2013-04-08 17:32:13 <ner0> hello, i need some help, please
2740 2013-04-08 17:32:17 <richcollins> CodeShark: I don't want to ever connect my cold storage wallet to the internet
2741 2013-04-08 17:32:25 <helo> ner0 explained to me that the following occurred: so you clicked "receive", made a new address, and then someone sent to that address. you restarted, and that new address isn't listed now?
2742 2013-04-08 17:32:29 <richcollins> CodeShark: So I want to move my coins from cold to hot in chunks
2743 2013-04-08 17:32:30 <jgarzik> richcollins: Nod. You're on the right track... I would just copy ~/.bitcoin entirely, then delete wallet.dat, on the online->offline computers.
2744 2013-04-08 17:32:31 <richcollins> as needed
2745 2013-04-08 17:32:38 <wumpus> CodeShark: it helps because you can send to a different address every time when you send to the cold storage
2746 2013-04-08 17:32:39 <jgarzik> richcollins: generate new addresses on offline computer
2747 2013-04-08 17:32:46 <jgarzik> richcollins: copy those addresses to online computer
2748 2013-04-08 17:32:49 <jgarzik> richcollins: send to addresses
2749 2013-04-08 17:32:54 <wumpus> CodeShark: which is better for privacy and somewhat safer
2750 2013-04-08 17:32:58 <ner0> helo, it is exactly what happened
2751 2013-04-08 17:33:06 <jgarzik> richcollins: no need to touch offline computer again, until you need to spend cold storage funds
2752 2013-04-08 17:33:18 <richcollins> jgarzik: yep thats the plan
2753 2013-04-08 17:33:22 <richcollins> OK thanks I'll give that a shot
2754 2013-04-08 17:33:30 <helo> he made a backup *after* restarting to see the address gone, and tried to retrieve a new address, and it was different than the new address that disappeared
2755 2013-04-08 17:33:31 <CodeShark> just make sure to make backups
2756 2013-04-08 17:33:32 <CodeShark> :)
2757 2013-04-08 17:33:44 Mobius_ has joined
2758 2013-04-08 17:33:49 <CodeShark> store the cold wallet in multiple places
2759 2013-04-08 17:33:51 <wumpus> yes
2760 2013-04-08 17:34:04 <richcollins> CodeShark: Yep since the wallet is encrypted I can basically store copies anywhere
2761 2013-04-08 17:34:16 <helo> ner0: did you perform any transactions (sending) at some point?
2762 2013-04-08 17:34:16 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2763 2013-04-08 17:34:29 <CodeShark> then make sure you don't forget the decryption key, richcollins :)
2764 2013-04-08 17:34:36 <richcollins> Althoguh I might actually encrypt the wallet.dat file as well
2765 2013-04-08 17:34:37 <ner0> nowan_, never sent
2766 2013-04-08 17:34:45 <ner0> sorry, i meant "no"
2767 2013-04-08 17:34:53 <richcollins> So my public keys are encrypted as well
2768 2013-04-08 17:34:58 <CodeShark> encrypting the wallet just moves the burden of having to store something secret to some place else
2769 2013-04-08 17:35:09 i2pRelay has joined
2770 2013-04-08 17:35:11 <richcollins> If bitcoin goes to 10,000 no need for people to know how many coins I have ;-)
2771 2013-04-08 17:35:40 <richcollins> CodeShark: Right I'll write the password down on paper and store it someplace safe
2772 2013-04-08 17:35:49 PhantomSpark has quit (2!~kvirc@pool-71-251-16-105.nycmny.fios.verizon.net|Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2773 2013-04-08 17:35:57 <jgarzik> richcollins: I recommend encrypting 100% of wallet.dat for privacy reasons
2774 2013-04-08 17:36:09 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2775 2013-04-08 17:36:15 Belxjander has joined
2776 2013-04-08 17:36:17 <richcollins> in case I'm thinking about how awesome Bitcoin is while crossing the street and I get hit by a bus
2777 2013-04-08 17:36:18 <jgarzik> richcollins: encrypted wallets still give intruders read-only access. They just cannot spend funds.
2778 2013-04-08 17:36:29 <richcollins> jgarzik: yeah I think I will
2779 2013-04-08 17:36:30 <jgarzik> er, bitcoind-encrypted wallets, to be specific
2780 2013-04-08 17:36:48 <richcollins> right the public keys can be extracted
2781 2013-04-08 17:36:50 <jgarzik> use an encrypted filesystem/block device etc.
2782 2013-04-08 17:36:58 <richcollins> I grepped for them ...
2783 2013-04-08 17:37:06 MacbookAir has left ()
2784 2013-04-08 17:37:11 <helo> ner0: you received a payment to the first address shown in "receive"?
2785 2013-04-08 17:37:14 <richcollins> jgarzik: I was just going to encrypt using openssl
2786 2013-04-08 17:37:19 <CodeShark> if someone sufficiently skilled hacks into your computer, they'll be able to steal your wallet whether it's encrypted or not :)
2787 2013-04-08 17:37:26 <richcollins> so I could send the file to friends, cloud storage ⦠etc
2788 2013-04-08 17:37:29 <ner0> helo, let me confirm
2789 2013-04-08 17:37:38 DrHaribo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2790 2013-04-08 17:37:39 <richcollins> CodeShark: How so?
2791 2013-04-08 17:37:44 <jgarzik> key loggers
2792 2013-04-08 17:37:46 Mobius_ is now known as MobiusL
2793 2013-04-08 17:37:48 <jgarzik> RAM sniffers
2794 2013-04-08 17:38:06 <ner0> helo, yes i have received at least one transaction last year to my first address
2795 2013-04-08 17:38:07 <richcollins> jgarzik: That seems unlikely when I boot from Ubuntu Live but I guess it is possible
2796 2013-04-08 17:38:22 <richcollins> (while not connected to net)
2797 2013-04-08 17:38:31 <CodeShark> anyone that gains root access to your system can install these things, richcollins
2798 2013-04-08 17:38:32 * BlueMatt points to the possibility of storing bitcoin privkeys in kernel-locked processor registers :)
2799 2013-04-08 17:38:36 <helo> is there a way to see change addresses?
2800 2013-04-08 17:38:38 <richcollins> I could have a compromised Ubuntu Live but probably not
2801 2013-04-08 17:38:48 <BlueMatt> no ram sniffer/root access can get them
2802 2013-04-08 17:38:48 <richcollins> CodeShark: I'm booting from Ubuntu Live image
2803 2013-04-08 17:38:59 <wumpus> lol BlueMatt, you really want bitcoin in the kernel eh
2804 2013-04-08 17:39:08 <ner0> the missing address was the 4th one i created, but it disappeared from the wallet after i closed bitcoin-qt in the usual way
2805 2013-04-08 17:39:12 <richcollins> So unless they get access to my USB flash drive and modify it
2806 2013-04-08 17:39:16 <richcollins> seems unlikely
2807 2013-04-08 17:39:24 <BlueMatt> wumpus: lol, I wouldnt actually implement it, but thats how my drive-encryption works
2808 2013-04-08 17:39:31 <CodeShark> I like the idea of a dedicated signing coprocessor :)
2809 2013-04-08 17:39:58 <wumpus> BlueMatt: makes sense
2810 2013-04-08 17:40:33 <CodeShark> the dedicated signing coprocessor could even reside on a keychain device that communicates wirelessly
2811 2013-04-08 17:41:22 <richcollins> CodeShark: I think a dongle for phones would make a great hot wallet
2812 2013-04-08 17:41:31 <richcollins> could sign tx and send them to phone to send to network
2813 2013-04-08 17:41:31 <BlueMatt> CodeShark: wireless signing? yuck!
2814 2013-04-08 17:41:32 <wumpus> there are people working on hw wallets, don't know details though
2815 2013-04-08 17:41:45 <richcollins> we need cold storage device as well
2816 2013-04-08 17:41:45 <ner0> is anyone familiar with missing addresses from bitcoin-qt wallet?
2817 2013-04-08 17:41:56 <richcollins> ner0: :-S
2818 2013-04-08 17:42:07 <wumpus> a dongle for phones?
2819 2013-04-08 17:42:13 john5223 has joined
2820 2013-04-08 17:42:29 <richcollins> wumpus: Yeah it would be locked down and would allow passcode entry
2821 2013-04-08 17:42:39 <richcollins> So you could sign a tx and send it to phone to send to network
2822 2013-04-08 17:42:42 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2823 2013-04-08 17:42:46 <wumpus> how would that work? connect through usb to your phone or something?
2824 2013-04-08 17:43:11 <richcollins> wumpus: Connect via your phones communication port (not sure what protocol they use)
2825 2013-04-08 17:43:15 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2826 2013-04-08 17:43:18 <richcollins> The port you connect power adapter to
2827 2013-04-08 17:43:21 <wumpus> ooh
2828 2013-04-08 17:43:26 <richcollins> like Square
2829 2013-04-08 17:43:32 franl has joined
2830 2013-04-08 17:43:33 <wumpus> yes that's just usb otg in my case
2831 2013-04-08 17:43:35 i2pRelay has joined
2832 2013-04-08 17:43:39 HiWEB has joined
2833 2013-04-08 17:43:45 <richcollins> https://squareup.com/register
2834 2013-04-08 17:43:57 Descry has joined
2835 2013-04-08 17:43:58 <richcollins> actually square uses audio jack
2836 2013-04-08 17:44:10 <richcollins> but same idea
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2841 2013-04-08 17:45:57 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: first step, ECDSA into kernel crypto/ dir :)
2842 2013-04-08 17:46:11 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: if you can find a use case other than bitcoin, I bet people would go for it :)
2843 2013-04-08 17:47:06 <CodeShark> ideally I'd like a device that is tiny, super low power (preferably self-powered), wireless, inexpensive, and tamper-proof with a tiny LCD display and maybe a little tiny joystick so you can enter an unlock code
2844 2013-04-08 17:47:29 <richcollins> CodeShark: So separate from phone
2845 2013-04-08 17:47:36 <CodeShark> up-down-right-left-down-left-right unlock!
2846 2013-04-08 17:47:39 <richcollins> I guess those mifi cards are pretty small
2847 2013-04-08 17:47:40 HiWEB has quit (Client Quit)
2848 2013-04-08 17:47:50 <richcollins> maybe you could make your own device that is self contained
2849 2013-04-08 17:47:55 HiWEB has joined
2850 2013-04-08 17:48:05 <richcollins> since you do need a screen anyway
2851 2013-04-08 17:48:17 zeph97 has joined
2852 2013-04-08 17:48:17 <richcollins> probably shouldn't trust mobile device screen
2853 2013-04-08 17:48:17 <wumpus> yes, separate from phone, though I guess you could use an old phone with sim and wifi removed for safety
2854 2013-04-08 17:48:18 <CodeShark> the display is the most severe constraint on size
2855 2013-04-08 17:48:47 <CodeShark> perhaps you could make it project the transaction info onto a desk or something
2856 2013-04-08 17:48:48 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: lol a general-case "store key in locked registers for any encryption" would be kinda cool...
2857 2013-04-08 17:48:54 HiWEB has quit (Client Quit)
2858 2013-04-08 17:49:13 HiWEB has joined
2859 2013-04-08 17:49:20 <jgarzik> CodeShark: heh, that would be neat. laser-project a QR code
2860 2013-04-08 17:49:31 franl has left ("O Elbereth! Gilthoniel! We still remember ...")
2861 2013-04-08 17:50:34 <wumpus> that's cool, but would use a lot of power
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2863 2013-04-08 17:51:09 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2866 2013-04-08 17:54:13 <CodeShark> with the payment protocol you could maybe give each merchant their own ringer tone or something - then the display would only need to show the amount
2867 2013-04-08 17:54:15 <CodeShark> :)
2868 2013-04-08 17:54:21 Descry has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2869 2013-04-08 17:54:44 eran has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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2871 2013-04-08 17:55:24 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
2872 2013-04-08 17:55:50 <CodeShark> then you unlock with the joystick and press a button to sign and transmit
2873 2013-04-08 17:56:31 meefozio has joined
2874 2013-04-08 17:56:54 <CodeShark> or doesn't even have to be merchants - just contacts in general
2875 2013-04-08 17:56:58 <n5> ;;asks 200
2876 2013-04-08 17:56:58 <gribble> There are currently 17181.218 bitcoins offered at or under 200.0 USD, worth 3335412.29527 USD in total. | Data vintage: 24.9461 seconds
2877 2013-04-08 17:57:12 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (away!~PiZZaMaN2@unaffiliated/pizzaman2k|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2878 2013-04-08 17:57:22 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
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2881 2013-04-08 17:57:55 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
2882 2013-04-08 17:58:09 <CodeShark> give them a relatively short label that can be easily displayed on a tiny screen
2883 2013-04-08 17:58:22 <CodeShark> then you know who you're paying and how much
2884 2013-04-08 17:58:46 owowo has joined
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2886 2013-04-08 17:59:45 wrabbit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2887 2013-04-08 17:59:53 <richcollins> CodeShark: You'd have to trust that you were sending to the right address
2888 2013-04-08 17:59:59 <richcollins> right
2889 2013-04-08 18:00:04 <CodeShark> that's what the payment protocol is for
2890 2013-04-08 18:00:11 <richcollins> (was reading your bit about not having a screen)
2891 2013-04-08 18:00:13 <CodeShark> it abstracts it to a higher level
2892 2013-04-08 18:00:23 <CodeShark> so that endusers don't have to worry about addresses
2893 2013-04-08 18:00:26 i2pRelay has joined
2894 2013-04-08 18:00:42 <richcollins> sure as long as you're confident about the tx that you're signing isn't fraudulent
2895 2013-04-08 18:00:54 <CodeShark> that's what the display is for
2896 2013-04-08 18:00:59 <CodeShark> and the input device to confirm
2897 2013-04-08 18:01:06 someonesomewhere has joined
2898 2013-04-08 18:01:14 <richcollins> right I was responding to an earlier msg you posted about the possibility of no display
2899 2013-04-08 18:01:15 <n5> ;;bids 80
2900 2013-04-08 18:01:18 <gribble> There are currently 58112.673 bitcoins demanded at or over 80.0 USD, worth 7333822.84352 USD in total. | Data vintage: 0.0060 seconds
2901 2013-04-08 18:01:32 <n5> ;;bids 20
2902 2013-04-08 18:01:32 <gribble> There are currently 118887.2 bitcoins demanded at or over 20.0 USD, worth 9893500.92163 USD in total. | Data vintage: 14.4931 seconds
2903 2013-04-08 18:01:33 <helo> when one changes their wallet password, does the client regenerate a new set of 100 keys, marking all addresses encrypted with the old passphrase as used?
2904 2013-04-08 18:01:41 <wumpus> helo: no
2905 2013-04-08 18:01:49 <wumpus> that only happens the first time
2906 2013-04-08 18:01:56 wrabbit has joined
2907 2013-04-08 18:02:07 <wumpus> changing the passphrase only changes the encryption of the master key that's used to encrypt the private keys
2908 2013-04-08 18:03:20 <richcollins> Are there any companies making a BTC Debit Card?
2909 2013-04-08 18:03:31 <richcollins> So you can store in BTC and convert to fiat as you pay?
2910 2013-04-08 18:03:44 <jgarzik> richcollins: There have been plenty of efforts and pre-announcements
2911 2013-04-08 18:03:54 <richcollins> jgarzik: wonder what the holdup is
2912 2013-04-08 18:04:12 <jgarzik> richcollins: I think there are one or two that store balances in USD. Increase USD balance at "reload time" with bitcoins.
2913 2013-04-08 18:04:23 <richcollins> I'd love to have an ACH account that would convert incoming USD to BTC and then covert BTC to USD to buy things
2914 2013-04-08 18:04:29 <jgarzik> richcollins: Given that the network is fiat-based, storing in bitcoin is hard.
2915 2013-04-08 18:04:30 <wumpus> regulation is always the holdup with anything involving fiat
2916 2013-04-08 18:04:30 <BlueMatt> its the financial sector, expecting anything less than a massive holdup would be ridiculous
2917 2013-04-08 18:04:42 <wumpus> right
2918 2013-04-08 18:04:51 <helo> this guy (ner0) changed his passphrase, revealed a new address, and shut is client down for 6 months. he received a payment to that new address interim, and on launching the client, the address he revealed isn't shown
2919 2013-04-08 18:04:59 <richcollins> then merchants would see the light when they could just start accepting BTC directly for lower fees
2920 2013-04-08 18:05:10 <richcollins> and I'd be able to store my spending money in BTC
2921 2013-04-08 18:05:10 <jgarzik> wumpus: it's technical as much as regulation... Visa/MC is a network of fiat-based banks. Storing balances in bitcoin would be quite difficult, initially.
2922 2013-04-08 18:05:11 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
2923 2013-04-08 18:05:21 <jgarzik> me too :)
2924 2013-04-08 18:05:35 <richcollins> jgarzik: Seems like a technical problem that is solvable though
2925 2013-04-08 18:05:46 <richcollins> you'd just need an adapter that would make the balances appear to be in USB
2926 2013-04-08 18:05:49 <richcollins> USD
2927 2013-04-08 18:05:51 <wumpus> helo: weird...
2928 2013-04-08 18:05:55 <jgarzik> I'm an engineer. I believe -anything- is solvable. It's just about the level of difficulty
2929 2013-04-08 18:05:56 <jgarzik> ;-)
2930 2013-04-08 18:06:09 <richcollins> jgarzik: http://www.paulgraham.com/schlep.html
2931 2013-04-08 18:06:10 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2932 2013-04-08 18:06:17 Belxjander has joined
2933 2013-04-08 18:07:27 <helo> is there any way to see all addresses (revealed or not)?
2934 2013-04-08 18:07:34 <wumpus> helo: you mean with 'revealed' that he created a new receiving address?
2935 2013-04-08 18:07:41 <wumpus> helo: yes, use pywallet, dump the thing to json
2936 2013-04-08 18:07:51 Fnar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2939 2013-04-08 18:08:15 <helo> bah, he's on windows
2940 2013-04-08 18:08:26 Fnar has joined
2941 2013-04-08 18:08:40 <wumpus> but if you send coins to an 'unrevealed' address it will still appear
2942 2013-04-08 18:08:41 ligar has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2943 2013-04-08 18:08:51 <gmaxwell> helo: he's PMing me too and I told him how to handle it
2944 2013-04-08 18:08:53 i2pRelay has joined
2945 2013-04-08 18:08:55 <wumpus> in transactions...
2946 2013-04-08 18:09:06 <gmaxwell> helo: you open the debug console, type validateaddress <address> and then see the ismine
2947 2013-04-08 18:09:15 <gmaxwell> then you can be comfortable that its still there.
2948 2013-04-08 18:09:19 MacbookAir has joined
2949 2013-04-08 18:09:39 <helo> gmaxwell: ahh, good to know
2950 2013-04-08 18:10:59 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
2951 2013-04-08 18:11:29 darkmethod has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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2954 2013-04-08 18:12:06 <melvster1> can i run a test net client simply using "bitcion-qt -testnet"
2955 2013-04-08 18:12:20 <melvster1> or should i stipulate a new wallet location etc.
2956 2013-04-08 18:12:23 ner0 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2957 2013-04-08 18:13:08 <sipa> melvster1: will use ~/.bitcoin/testnet3
2958 2013-04-08 18:13:22 <melvster1> sipa: thanks
2959 2013-04-08 18:13:34 <melvster1> so it's all safe and doesnt collide with the existing?
2960 2013-04-08 18:13:38 <sipa> indeed
2961 2013-04-08 18:13:40 gavinandresen_ has joined
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2963 2013-04-08 18:13:40 gavinandresen_ has joined
2964 2013-04-08 18:13:46 <melvster1> super
2965 2013-04-08 18:13:51 <sipa> unless you explicitly specify the same -datadir for both
2966 2013-04-08 18:14:00 <midnightmagic> what's nh, new hampshire?
2967 2013-04-08 18:14:42 gavinandresen has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2968 2013-04-08 18:14:42 gavinandresen_ is now known as gavinandresen
2969 2013-04-08 18:16:07 tlrobinson has joined
2970 2013-04-08 18:16:21 Evilmax has joined
2971 2013-04-08 18:16:24 <Evilmax> hi all
2972 2013-04-08 18:16:24 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2973 2013-04-08 18:16:28 <Evilmax> i have a question
2974 2013-04-08 18:16:46 <Evilmax> who help me?
2975 2013-04-08 18:17:17 i2pRelay has joined
2976 2013-04-08 18:17:42 <sipa> Evilmax: that's very hard to know before we know the question
2977 2013-04-08 18:17:49 eckey has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2978 2013-04-08 18:18:36 eckey has joined
2979 2013-04-08 18:18:37 <wumpus> don't ask to ask... just ask
2980 2013-04-08 18:18:38 <Evilmax> i want only to know where...ljrbot (the bot of bitcoin-watch) reads his information...i meann if there is a site where i can read, in real time, all btc transactions
2981 2013-04-08 18:19:01 <sipa> Evilmax: i assume it just gets its data from the network
2982 2013-04-08 18:19:05 <Evilmax> because now bot doesn't work and i need that service
2983 2013-04-08 18:19:06 <sipa> though talk to lupine
2984 2013-04-08 18:19:10 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2985 2013-04-08 18:19:11 <sipa> eh, Luke-Jr
2986 2013-04-08 18:19:15 <Evilmax> ok
2987 2013-04-08 18:19:40 <Luke-Jr> Evilmax: which info?
2988 2013-04-08 18:19:49 <Luke-Jr> transactions come from bitcoind's p2p port
2989 2013-04-08 18:19:57 <Luke-Jr> trades from bitcoinwatch.com's socket feed
2990 2013-04-08 18:20:07 <Evilmax> thanks
2991 2013-04-08 18:20:24 mercerist has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2992 2013-04-08 18:20:45 zw has quit ()
2993 2013-04-08 18:21:09 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2994 2013-04-08 18:21:11 <Luke-Jr> sipa: hmm, ljrbot's node seems to be being attacked maybe
2995 2013-04-08 18:21:17 Belxjander has joined
2996 2013-04-08 18:21:18 ligar_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2997 2013-04-08 18:21:19 <Luke-Jr> Added 1 addresses from 23.20.29.239: 4096 tried, 12489 new
2998 2013-04-08 18:21:20 <Luke-Jr> Added 1 addresses from 23.20.29.239: 4096 tried, 12489 new
2999 2013-04-08 18:21:22 <Luke-Jr> ^ flood of these in debug log
3000 2013-04-08 18:22:00 <sipa> Luke-Jr: looks like quite normal relaying?
3001 2013-04-08 18:22:11 <Luke-Jr> sipa: for a flood of addr from one IP?
3002 2013-04-08 18:22:24 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3003 2013-04-08 18:22:32 <sipa> if you're his trickle node
3004 2013-04-08 18:22:34 random_cat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3005 2013-04-08 18:23:05 <kinlo> does anyone knows who moderates/maintains the -dev mailinglist?
3006 2013-04-08 18:23:50 <wumpus> gavin
3007 2013-04-08 18:24:01 Anduck has joined
3008 2013-04-08 18:24:04 <sipa> it's not moderated afaik, unless you do things like adding huge attachments
3009 2013-04-08 18:24:21 <HM> codepad used to be faster :(
3010 2013-04-08 18:24:45 random_cat has joined
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3013 2013-04-08 18:25:00 <kinlo> sipa: I mailed a few days ago and it never arrived
3014 2013-04-08 18:25:22 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: are you subscribed
3015 2013-04-08 18:25:35 <kinlo> that's a good question
3016 2013-04-08 18:25:43 i2pRelay has joined
3017 2013-04-08 18:25:46 <kinlo> I just hit reply, but was that with the same address
3018 2013-04-08 18:26:48 <kinlo> yes indeed, different email address
3019 2013-04-08 18:26:48 <kinlo> :/
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3025 2013-04-08 18:31:44 <denisx> kinlo: you are the one with the block origin website, right?
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3050 2013-04-08 18:43:28 <kinlo> denisx: yes
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3052 2013-04-08 18:44:33 Grouver has joined
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3054 2013-04-08 18:44:39 <denisx> kinlo: I know you scan my site for the blocks I generate
3055 2013-04-08 18:44:56 <denisx> wouldnt it be easier if you know the address for which I generate the block?
3056 2013-04-08 18:46:33 <kinlo> denisx: nope, I scrape - there is no bitcoin client for my site so I can't track addresses.... Every pool can be scraped atm, if you only gave me an address, I would need to do specific development for you :/
3057 2013-04-08 18:46:57 <kinlo> denisx: which pool was yours again?
3058 2013-04-08 18:47:05 <kinlo> I'm terrible with names :p
3059 2013-04-08 18:47:16 <BlueMatt> png.h: "January 24, 2013...are Y2K compliant." wtf?
3060 2013-04-08 18:47:25 daveluke has quit (Quit: daveluke)
3061 2013-04-08 18:49:10 <kinlo> denisx: also, it limits to 1 attempt per hour to scrape, so it shouldn't put any stress on your server
3062 2013-04-08 18:49:16 fishfish has joined
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3069 2013-04-08 18:51:07 <denisx> kinlo: thats not my concern
3070 2013-04-08 18:51:09 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3071 2013-04-08 18:51:15 Belxjander has joined
3072 2013-04-08 18:51:19 <denisx> kinlo: I'm just thinking loud ;)
3073 2013-04-08 18:51:24 <kinlo> :)
3074 2013-04-08 18:51:33 i2pRelay has joined
3075 2013-04-08 18:51:36 <denisx> kinlo: btcmp.com
3076 2013-04-08 18:51:45 daybyter has joined
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3088 2013-04-08 19:03:29 <jsfsn> Is there anyway to add addresses using bitcoind rpc for watch only?
3089 2013-04-08 19:03:33 [\\\] has quit ()
3090 2013-04-08 19:03:33 <jsfsn> From a cold-storage wallet
3091 2013-04-08 19:03:59 <sipa> jsfsn: not yet
3092 2013-04-08 19:04:06 <sipa> 0.9 likely will support that
3093 2013-04-08 19:04:46 <jsfsn> I saw the pull request on github, will that be merged?
3094 2013-04-08 19:05:12 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3095 2013-04-08 19:06:09 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3096 2013-04-08 19:06:17 Belxjander has joined
3097 2013-04-08 19:06:49 <gmaxwell> Hm? I don't believe there is a pull request for watch only
3098 2013-04-08 19:06:51 FredEE has joined
3099 2013-04-08 19:07:07 <gmaxwell> but it's nearly trivial once there is multiwallet support.
3100 2013-04-08 19:07:16 lodse has joined
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3102 2013-04-08 19:07:40 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
3103 2013-04-08 19:07:43 drizztbsd has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3104 2013-04-08 19:07:48 <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2121
3105 2013-04-08 19:07:51 sud3n has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3106 2013-04-08 19:07:58 rdymac has joined
3107 2013-04-08 19:08:23 i2pRelay has joined
3108 2013-04-08 19:08:24 <jsfsn> Yes, that request sipa is refering to is the one I looked at
3109 2013-04-08 19:09:41 <gmaxwell> oh!
3110 2013-04-08 19:09:55 <gmaxwell> I guess I forgot about that.
3111 2013-04-08 19:11:04 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: DID YOU EVER READ THAT URL I GAVE YOU
3112 2013-04-08 19:11:04 <jsfsn> Seems fine, not sure about adding the key if the wallet is locked, however
3113 2013-04-08 19:11:05 <Diablo-D3> :<
3114 2013-04-08 19:11:22 BlackPrapor has quit (2!~kvirc@h31-8-76-157.dyn.bashtel.ru|Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3115 2013-04-08 19:11:44 <jgarzik> Is this a pull request where we must mercilessly hound CodeShark for a rebase?
3116 2013-04-08 19:11:44 <graingert> Diablo-D3: LOL
3117 2013-04-08 19:11:46 * jgarzik ducks and runs
3118 2013-04-08 19:11:47 <jgarzik> :)
3119 2013-04-08 19:11:50 btccc has joined
3120 2013-04-08 19:12:07 <sipa> jgarzik: after 0.8.2, i guess
3121 2013-04-08 19:12:11 <btccc> hows it going ya'll? excited about being $40 richer per BTC over 24 hrs?
3122 2013-04-08 19:12:19 Tantadruj has joined
3123 2013-04-08 19:12:48 MobPhone has joined
3124 2013-04-08 19:12:54 <CodeShark> rebasing 2121 shouldn't be too difficult
3125 2013-04-08 19:13:06 <Diablo-D3> http://joneisen.me/post/38188396218
3126 2013-04-08 19:13:12 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: ^
3127 2013-04-08 19:13:18 FredEE has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3128 2013-04-08 19:13:21 <Diablo-D3> errr
3129 2013-04-08 19:13:23 <Diablo-D3> wrong url
3130 2013-04-08 19:13:57 <jgarzik> CodeShark: I'm curious about completeness. How does GUI behave, other RPCs behave in the face of watch-only
3131 2013-04-08 19:14:16 <jgarzik> CodeShark: would really like to merge watch-only (after 0.8.2, I agree w/ sipa)
3132 2013-04-08 19:14:26 <Diablo-D3> http://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2012/12/19/the-impoliteness-of-overriding-methods
3133 2013-04-08 19:14:29 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: ^
3134 2013-04-08 19:14:49 <CodeShark> I didn't test 2121 with GUI, seemed to do OK with other RPCs
3135 2013-04-08 19:15:06 <CodeShark> the GUI would have to be modified to behave well, I'm guessing
3136 2013-04-08 19:15:33 <Diablo-D3> eye are going to bed
3137 2013-04-08 19:15:34 <Diablo-D3> night all
3138 2013-04-08 19:15:39 <CodeShark> i.e. disable send when watch-only address is selected, clearly indicate watch only addresses, etc...
3139 2013-04-08 19:15:44 <jgarzik> yep
3140 2013-04-08 19:15:55 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3141 2013-04-08 19:16:25 lookup has joined
3142 2013-04-08 19:16:42 <sipa> nit: i dislike bitcoin now identifying itself as bitcoin-start in top
3143 2013-04-08 19:16:50 i2pRelay has joined
3144 2013-04-08 19:16:58 <jgarzik> agree
3145 2013-04-08 19:17:19 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: yes, I read it.
3146 2013-04-08 19:17:24 <jgarzik> I don't remind sub-threads changing names, but main thread probably shouldn't. possibly breaks tools.
3147 2013-04-08 19:17:47 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: THATS what I want in a language, + single inherietence + mixins
3148 2013-04-08 19:18:33 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: rusts' impl stuff basically kills all the psychotic and confusing uses of overrides.
3149 2013-04-08 19:18:50 <jsfsn> Diablo-D3: I can name multiple things that would produce cleaner code than that
3150 2013-04-08 19:18:52 sud3n has joined
3151 2013-04-08 19:18:59 <jsfsn> DIablo-D3: Using C++ as reference
3152 2013-04-08 19:19:11 crescendo has joined
3153 2013-04-08 19:19:26 <Diablo-D3> jsfsn: er, you're on crack
3154 2013-04-08 19:19:35 <gmaxwell> okay, language debate is not for here.
3155 2013-04-08 19:19:54 <gmaxwell> (Diablo-D3: and yes, I did read that URL the other night)
3156 2013-04-08 19:20:00 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3157 2013-04-08 19:20:26 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: well, the thing with overriding functions is it leads to bad code
3158 2013-04-08 19:20:34 <Diablo-D3> so if rust allows that _at all_ its kinda broken
3159 2013-04-08 19:20:40 <Diablo-D3> for the exact reasons listed in that article
3160 2013-04-08 19:20:48 Diablo-D3 has joined
3161 2013-04-08 19:20:51 <Diablo-D3> :<
3162 2013-04-08 19:20:56 <gmaxwell> 11:57 <@gmaxwell> okay, language debate is not for here.
3163 2013-04-08 19:21:07 <HM> Rust looks awesome, shame about the insane syntax
3164 2013-04-08 19:21:08 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3165 2013-04-08 19:21:10 <Diablo-D3> well Im not starting a #bitcoin-languagedebate
3166 2013-04-08 19:21:16 Belxjander has joined
3167 2013-04-08 19:21:49 <Diablo-D3> and Im supposed to be going to bed anyhow
3168 2013-04-08 19:21:53 <Diablo-D3> night all
3169 2013-04-08 19:22:06 <gmaxwell> HM: #bitcoin-languagedebate :P
3170 2013-04-08 19:22:16 <sipa> i'd like to have #2418 #2461 #2478 in 0.8.2
3171 2013-04-08 19:22:21 <jh2o2389> good night Diablo-D3
3172 2013-04-08 19:22:48 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
3173 2013-04-08 19:22:49 <sipa> #2410 should probably too, but i'm not so sure whether it doesn't break anything
3174 2013-04-08 19:23:13 Bohren has joined
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3177 2013-04-08 19:23:55 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'm not quite sure how to really test 2461 well. Part of the problem is that the sync behavior is already kinda broken for unrealated reasons... so "try it a bunch and make sure nothing weird happens" isn't a useful test.
3178 2013-04-08 19:24:11 <Diablo-D3> before I go
3179 2013-04-08 19:24:19 BlackPrapor has joined
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3181 2013-04-08 19:24:21 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: I think Ill look at rust in depth tommorw possibly
3182 2013-04-08 19:24:38 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: ive been spending the past few weeks trying to write a malloc impl I dont hate
3183 2013-04-08 19:25:02 <Diablo-D3> how is it possible there are 9000 malloc impls out there and they all suck
3184 2013-04-08 19:25:06 <sipa> gmaxwell: hard to make it worse too
3185 2013-04-08 19:25:11 i2pRelay has joined
3186 2013-04-08 19:25:13 <Diablo-D3> either they're too slow or they heart threads
3187 2013-04-08 19:25:20 <Diablo-D3> anyhow, night all
3188 2013-04-08 19:25:29 Diablo-D3 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
3189 2013-04-08 19:25:30 manet has joined
3190 2013-04-08 19:27:16 rdymac has joined
3191 2013-04-08 19:30:07 <jsfsn> What is the prefered way as of now to use a cold storage wallet but still be able to see transactions? Scan transactions manually?
3192 2013-04-08 19:30:45 <gmaxwell> jsfsn: I personally just put a copy of the cold storage wallet, encrypted with an impossible passphrase online.
3193 2013-04-08 19:30:55 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
3194 2013-04-08 19:31:09 <gmaxwell> (and, of course, never decrypt it onlineâ I don't even have the key to that copy anymore..)
3195 2013-04-08 19:31:36 <jsfsn> Right, not sure if I would class that as a cold storage though (:
3196 2013-04-08 19:31:55 <jsfsn> Can you generate new addresses without decrypting it by the way?
3197 2013-04-08 19:32:32 <gmaxwell> Why not? the decryption key is not known by anyone in the universe... and it has very high entropy.. breaking it should be comparable to breaking the ecdsa.
3198 2013-04-08 19:32:43 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3199 2013-04-08 19:32:50 <gmaxwell> jsfsn: you can pull addresses from the keypool.. if you prefill your keypool you're good to go there.
3200 2013-04-08 19:33:02 deadweasel has joined
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3202 2013-04-08 19:33:18 <melvster1> yay -- the test net rocks!
3203 2013-04-08 19:33:24 <jsfsn> gmaxwell: That is true. Thanks!
3204 2013-04-08 19:33:30 <gwillen> jsfsn: you could also use Armory
3205 2013-04-08 19:33:33 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: ping
3206 2013-04-08 19:33:34 i2pRelay has joined
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3208 2013-04-08 19:33:44 <gwillen> jsfsn: it has a notion of 'watching wallet', which can track transactions but does not have the private key
3209 2013-04-08 19:33:49 <gwillen> jsfsn: and you can store the private key offline
3210 2013-04-08 19:33:53 <jsfsn> gwillen: I rather not, much easier to keep up to date with the "official" client
3211 2013-04-08 19:34:16 <deadweasel> armory is sweet
3212 2013-04-08 19:34:27 <deadweasel> watching wallets are easy.
3213 2013-04-08 19:34:34 <jsfsn> I'm not saying Armory is not
3214 2013-04-08 19:35:47 <jsfsn> I have been thinking of using it personally, just not sure how well it behaves as a server-wallet.
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3230 2013-04-08 19:42:48 <gmaxwell> etotheipi__: your armory make _still_ does crazy hardcoding of /usr/lib/ as the library paths. This doesn't work on systems with a proper multilib setup where the x86_64 libraries are in /usr/lib64/ :(
3231 2013-04-08 19:42:51 bigatron has quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
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3236 2013-04-08 19:44:39 <ThomasV> is there a chat channel for armory?
3237 2013-04-08 19:44:42 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3238 2013-04-08 19:44:51 <sipa> #bitcoin-armory
3239 2013-04-08 19:45:06 <ThomasV> thanks
3240 2013-04-08 19:46:26 <etotheipi__> gmaxwell: my attitude was that I didn't want to spend too much time on that search function (though someone pointed out I should just use "whereis")
3241 2013-04-08 19:46:29 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3242 2013-04-08 19:46:30 whiterabbit is now known as wrabbit
3243 2013-04-08 19:46:33 mercerist has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
3244 2013-04-08 19:46:39 <etotheipi__> if you're using Ubuntu, it works, if you're not using Ubuntu, then you probably know how to point it yourself
3245 2013-04-08 19:46:51 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: pong
3246 2013-04-08 19:46:59 <BlueMatt> now that there are quite a few pulls that break pull-tester, should we move pull-tester to git?
3247 2013-04-08 19:47:10 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: can you do builds of the rc2 stable tags?
3248 2013-04-08 19:47:48 <sipa> BlueMatt: you mean, under bitcoin/bitcoin ?
3249 2013-04-08 19:47:52 <BlueMatt> sipa: yea
3250 2013-04-08 19:48:02 <sipa> perhaps the patches can go in contrib?
3251 2013-04-08 19:48:09 <BlueMatt> yea...
3252 2013-04-08 19:48:11 <sipa> i wouldn't put the actual pulltester stuff in there
3253 2013-04-08 19:48:26 lookup has quit (Quit: lookup)
3254 2013-04-08 19:48:27 <BlueMatt> yea, I just meant patches, dont care about the rest
3255 2013-04-08 19:48:32 <sipa> BlueMatt: ACK
3256 2013-04-08 19:49:25 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: 0.8.2 rc2 or what?
3257 2013-04-08 19:49:32 <BlueMatt> also, if you mean gitian...no
3258 2013-04-08 19:49:36 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3259 2013-04-08 19:49:51 manet has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3260 2013-04-08 19:49:55 <sipa> BlueMatt: by stable, Luke-Jr means his backports
3261 2013-04-08 19:50:03 Retik has joined
3262 2013-04-08 19:50:11 <BlueMatt> well in terms of gitian, no
3263 2013-04-08 19:50:14 <Luke-Jr> oh
3264 2013-04-08 19:50:29 i2pRelay has joined
3265 2013-04-08 19:50:32 <Luke-Jr> so is there nobody with working gitian besides me now? :/
3266 2013-04-08 19:51:08 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3267 2013-04-08 19:51:16 Belxjander has joined
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3269 2013-04-08 19:51:54 TD has joined
3270 2013-04-08 19:51:58 <TD> good evening
3271 2013-04-08 19:52:52 Painke has joined
3272 2013-04-08 19:53:18 bitcoinbulletin has joined
3273 2013-04-08 19:53:36 nomailing has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3274 2013-04-08 19:55:29 <Luke-Jr> TD: are you responsible for the Google headhunter contacting me after I commented on hating Google? :P
3275 2013-04-08 19:56:07 sebicas has left ()
3276 2013-04-08 19:56:59 pgvoorhees has joined
3277 2013-04-08 19:57:10 <TD> haha
3278 2013-04-08 19:57:11 <TD> no.
3279 2013-04-08 19:57:53 <TD> although that would have been a truly excellent troll
3280 2013-04-08 19:58:01 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3281 2013-04-08 19:58:10 <TD> these guys are ravenous though. in the past they've even tried to recruit people using their @google.com email addresses
3282 2013-04-08 19:58:20 <gmaxwell> etotheipi__: the linker is supposted to do this for you. e.g -static -lpython2.7
3283 2013-04-08 19:58:34 <etotheipi__> ooh that's what your'e talking about
3284 2013-04-08 19:58:44 <Luke-Jr> TD: it would have been.
3285 2013-04-08 19:58:44 <topi`> what's the new method to find peers? in the old days, it was the irc channel, but surely that is removed from code base already?
3286 2013-04-08 19:58:54 i2pRelay has joined
3287 2013-04-08 19:58:57 <etotheipi__> gmaxwell: I'm not very good with makefiles, so your suggestions are much appreciate
3288 2013-04-08 19:58:59 <TD> topi`: DNS for a long time already
3289 2013-04-08 19:59:01 <etotheipi__> but I do need static compiling
3290 2013-04-08 19:59:19 <etotheipi__> and a fallback if the static library doesn't exist
3291 2013-04-08 19:59:20 wizkid057 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3292 2013-04-08 19:59:28 <gmaxwell> etotheipi__: OK. When I find a ubuntu system to test on I'll give you a patch.
3293 2013-04-08 19:59:28 <topi`> TD: interesting. is there any documentation about how that works, or should I just read the source?
3294 2013-04-08 19:59:28 <Luke-Jr> TD: can you do anything about half of Google's websites refusing to load in Qt 4.8? :P
3295 2013-04-08 19:59:37 <etotheipi__> gmaxwell: that would be fantastic, thanks
3296 2013-04-08 19:59:46 <sipa> Luke-Jr: does Qt have a browser...?
3297 2013-04-08 19:59:58 <Luke-Jr> sipa: QtWebkit module, used in QupZilla
3298 2013-04-08 19:59:59 <TD> topi`: there is a hard-coded list of DNS names. resolving them gives you back some A or AAAA records for peers
3299 2013-04-08 20:00:02 <sipa> Luke-Jr: wtf
3300 2013-04-08 20:00:05 <TD> topi`: reading the source is never a bad idea though
3301 2013-04-08 20:00:13 <TD> qupzilla?
3302 2013-04-08 20:00:14 <TD> that's a new one
3303 2013-04-08 20:00:17 <topi`> TD: I agree, but my C++ is very rusty by now
3304 2013-04-08 20:00:23 <Luke-Jr> Google claims some nonsense about cookies not being enabled when they are
3305 2013-04-08 20:00:25 <TD> topi`: read bitcoinj then :)
3306 2013-04-08 20:00:28 <jgarzik> TD: heh, indeed. Even after a Google interview I hated, Google recruiters continue to call me :)
3307 2013-04-08 20:00:29 <etotheipi__> personally, I hate dealing with Make files and builders (like the debian packaging)
3308 2013-04-08 20:00:39 <topi`> TD: I would prefer python or scala ;)
3309 2013-04-08 20:00:45 <TD> Luke-Jr: dunno. probably for QtWebkit you have to explicitly set up a cookie jar of some kind. it's not like we have anything against webkit, right?
3310 2013-04-08 20:01:01 <Luke-Jr> TD: it used to work fine, and works for every other website that uses cookies..
3311 2013-04-08 20:01:10 <TD> jgarzik: yeah, they're something else. they found me via an email i posted to a red hat mailing list, about 3 years before they got in touch. god knows how some sourcer found his way there.
3312 2013-04-08 20:01:19 <TD> Luke-Jr: that's weird. is this on login?
3313 2013-04-08 20:01:26 <Luke-Jr> TD: no, just loading any simple website
3314 2013-04-08 20:01:39 <TD> Luke-Jr: what's the url displayed when we say cookies aren't working?
3315 2013-04-08 20:01:43 <Luke-Jr> like even the main page of http://code.google.com
3316 2013-04-08 20:01:55 <Luke-Jr> https://accounts.google.com/CookieMismatch
3317 2013-04-08 20:01:59 pacpac has joined
3318 2013-04-08 20:02:00 <TD> CookieMismatch huh
3319 2013-04-08 20:02:02 <TD> that's a new one
3320 2013-04-08 20:02:13 * TD goes on a rummage through the code
3321 2013-04-08 20:03:16 * jgarzik needs to figure out how to disable [bitcoin.org] github spam
3322 2013-04-08 20:03:29 <topi`> my bitcoin app seems to be stuck on block 230150 for a long time now. I think the reason is that I had to disconnect my 3G. how could I force it to re-discover peers and start downloading again without restarting the whole client?
3323 2013-04-08 20:03:51 <sipa> topi`: what version?
3324 2013-04-08 20:03:57 <topi`> by tail -f'ing the debuglog, I see it's constantly Adding addresses and storing orphan tx's so it should work
3325 2013-04-08 20:04:01 <topi`> sipa: 0.8.0
3326 2013-04-08 20:04:22 <sipa> topi`: can you paste a few pages of debug.log somewhere?
3327 2013-04-08 20:04:25 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
3328 2013-04-08 20:04:25 <gribble> 230331
3329 2013-04-08 20:04:27 <topi`> also, CTxMemPool::accept() : accepted 55dbd83f17 (poolsz 244)
3330 2013-04-08 20:04:30 <topi`> what does this mean?
3331 2013-04-08 20:04:40 <sipa> it means a transaction added to the mempool
3332 2013-04-08 20:04:59 <topi`> so it stores some tx's, and others it considers orpahns.
3333 2013-04-08 20:05:06 <sipa> obviously
3334 2013-04-08 20:05:14 <sipa> if it misses blocks, many will be orphans
3335 2013-04-08 20:05:15 <TD> technically it stores both kinds
3336 2013-04-08 20:05:17 <TD> just in different places
3337 2013-04-08 20:05:23 * jgarzik ponders adding a "suggested_fee" to 'getinfo' RPC
3338 2013-04-08 20:05:26 <sipa> but even without, there will be orphans
3339 2013-04-08 20:05:28 <jgarzik> based on history
3340 2013-04-08 20:05:52 <TD> any solution like that doesn't do much to help SPV clients. not that any even try to calculate fees today :)
3341 2013-04-08 20:06:09 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3342 2013-04-08 20:06:17 Belxjander has joined
3343 2013-04-08 20:06:25 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3344 2013-04-08 20:06:43 <jgarzik> certainly
3345 2013-04-08 20:06:53 <helo> jgarzik: greg was suggesting basing the fee off of unconfirmed transaction fees
3346 2013-04-08 20:07:17 <topi`> sipa: here is the log: http://pastebin.com/Cw7MwE9G
3347 2013-04-08 20:07:17 <helo> but that would vary a lot right after a block was found
3348 2013-04-08 20:07:18 i2pRelay has joined
3349 2013-04-08 20:07:32 <topi`> the last downloaded block is in the first 25 lines
3350 2013-04-08 20:07:44 Peacemaker420 has joined
3351 2013-04-08 20:07:46 <jgarzik> helo: Well, not just unconfirmed. One must consider evidence of what miners actually permit into blocks.
3352 2013-04-08 20:08:01 <sipa> topi`: i see no block being downloaded at all
3353 2013-04-08 20:08:05 <sipa> topi`: can you give some more
3354 2013-04-08 20:08:23 <topi`> oh, I need to go further back in history
3355 2013-04-08 20:08:27 <TD> Luke-Jr: so have you actually tried clearing cookies?
3356 2013-04-08 20:08:34 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3357 2013-04-08 20:08:42 <Luke-Jr> TD: no, should I?
3358 2013-04-08 20:08:49 <TD> Luke-Jr: that's what the page recommends you try, right?
3359 2013-04-08 20:09:00 <Luke-Jr> yes, but IMO such a recommendation is a bug in the website :P
3360 2013-04-08 20:09:07 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3361 2013-04-08 20:09:21 <CodeShark> jgarzik: rebased, but certainly not tested
3362 2013-04-08 20:09:30 <jgarzik> CodeShark: thanks
3363 2013-04-08 20:10:12 agath_pd has joined
3364 2013-04-08 20:10:18 agath has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3365 2013-04-08 20:10:26 <topi`> sipa: here: http://pastebin.com/vTWeWBPk
3366 2013-04-08 20:10:26 <TD> from my reading of the code, you can only reach the page in question if something is hosed with the browser (there are multiple cookies that disagree with each other). it's also possible there is a server side bug causing it, but then i'd expect it to affect more than QtWebkit
3367 2013-04-08 20:10:55 <TD> debugging these sorts of things can be a pain though
3368 2013-04-08 20:10:59 <helo> minimum fee: order unconfirmed transactions by priority. dig down to the first transaction that occurs before (1MB - txsize) deep, select that fee.
3369 2013-04-08 20:11:02 <TD> usually you end up needing full network traces
3370 2013-04-08 20:11:29 <Luke-Jr> TD: deleting all cookies fixed it, but why doesn't the site just do that itself if it doesn't like them? :/
3371 2013-04-08 20:11:39 <TD> it can't
3372 2013-04-08 20:11:41 <TD> the cookies cross domains
3373 2013-04-08 20:12:41 <TD> the google login system is a single sign-on system. you can have cookies on youtube.com that have to match accounts.google.com which have to match mail.google.com, etc, and some cookies are specific to a domain/product. it's a part of the XSS defences. hence, the recommendation on the page.
3374 2013-04-08 20:12:48 Anduck has joined
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3376 2013-04-08 20:12:48 Anduck has joined
3377 2013-04-08 20:12:52 <TD> how you got into that state, i do not know
3378 2013-04-08 20:12:56 <Luke-Jr> sounds like a mess :|
3379 2013-04-08 20:13:02 <sipa> haha :D
3380 2013-04-08 20:13:10 <TD> i spent the last 2.5 years working on the google login system
3381 2013-04-08 20:13:22 <TD> it is, without question, the most complicated accounts management system in the world
3382 2013-04-08 20:13:28 <TD> (talking about websites here)
3383 2013-04-08 20:13:44 zapsoda has joined
3384 2013-04-08 20:13:50 <TD> but it's complicated because it's also probably the most feature rich
3385 2013-04-08 20:13:58 <TD> so â¦â¦ you know. software.
3386 2013-04-08 20:14:26 <zapsoda> Anyone know how to make the error responses echo out when using PHP (with jsonRPC) to control bitcoind
3387 2013-04-08 20:14:37 <HM> TD: what do you think of Mozillas Persona?
3388 2013-04-08 20:14:52 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3389 2013-04-08 20:15:03 * Luke-Jr ponders if deleting github's cookies will fix it too
3390 2013-04-08 20:15:07 <topi`> hmm, the last 6 blocks seem to be at the maximum 250k every single one of them... everyone's in a rush to push their coins to mt.gox?
3391 2013-04-08 20:15:15 <Luke-Jr> it did! woo
3392 2013-04-08 20:15:24 <sipa> zapsoda: i believe there was a better RPC-JSON library
3393 2013-04-08 20:15:32 <sipa> zapsoda: i have no clue about PHP though
3394 2013-04-08 20:15:38 <sipa> just what i heard; have no links
3395 2013-04-08 20:15:44 i2pRelay has joined
3396 2013-04-08 20:16:00 Davincij15 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3397 2013-04-08 20:16:04 <zapsoda> Kk, Ty
3398 2013-04-08 20:16:04 <jgarzik> topi`: Most blocks in the past several days have been "full", if full is defined as 250k soft limit
3399 2013-04-08 20:16:15 <jgarzik> topi`: definitely starting to _require_ a fee, to get good priority
3400 2013-04-08 20:16:27 <TD> HM: that's the browserid thing?
3401 2013-04-08 20:16:29 <topi`> also, block 230326 has txs worth of 44k btc, must be a record of some kind
3402 2013-04-08 20:16:39 <TD> HM: where they generate a client cert? i vaguely recall this but it's been a while ....
3403 2013-04-08 20:16:54 <sipa> jgarzik: perhaps we should at least start to put some text there like "Depending on the load of the network, transactions with low fee make take a very long time to confirm"
3404 2013-04-08 20:17:07 <jgarzik> +1
3405 2013-04-08 20:17:22 <TD> HM: the developer FAQ is not very informative. it's also wrong. sites can actually have google/facebook logins without receiving the users email address. not that this is a good idea, mind you, but it's technically possible
3406 2013-04-08 20:17:28 <jgarzik> even a website for newbies to evaluate current fees required by network
3407 2013-04-08 20:17:28 <topi`> jgarzik: there's a "meager" 74k block from BTC guild after those 6 full ones, why wasn't that filled up completely? maybe BTC guild rejected zero fees.
3408 2013-04-08 20:17:29 <jgarzik> would be useful
3409 2013-04-08 20:17:46 <TD> topi`: we knew this would be a problem, that's why we tried to raise the block size limit and hit the bdb locks bug
3410 2013-04-08 20:18:07 <TD> topi`: unfortunately, we have to wait until may 15th for the pressure to slacken off. or a drop in bitcoins popularity
3411 2013-04-08 20:18:13 <jgarzik> topi`: Unconfirmed transactions with dust outputs and other spammy qualitites just sit around
3412 2013-04-08 20:18:19 <jgarzik> not getting confirmed for ages
3413 2013-04-08 20:18:28 <topi`> TD: it's not that far away anymore!
3414 2013-04-08 20:18:43 <TD> topi`: you can get small blocks if they're solved very soon after the previous one
3415 2013-04-08 20:18:45 <jgarzik> so that contributes to a false impression sometimes, when people look at blockchain.info's "14,000 transactions unconfirmed zomg!!!"
3416 2013-04-08 20:18:51 <jgarzik> that number needs a "*"
3417 2013-04-08 20:19:01 <TD> we could really use a good mempool monitoring tool
3418 2013-04-08 20:19:06 <jgarzik> +1
3419 2013-04-08 20:19:47 <topi`> jgarzik: where is unconfirmed txs in blockchain.info?
3420 2013-04-08 20:19:52 <TD> i keep wanting to write one, and then there are higher priorities all the time. sigh.
3421 2013-04-08 20:20:02 <Luke-Jr> someone should start a bc.i minus the misinformation
3422 2013-04-08 20:20:28 <jgarzik> topi`: http://blockchain.info/unconfirmed-transactions
3423 2013-04-08 20:20:37 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: working on it
3424 2013-04-08 20:20:48 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: awesome, look forward to it
3425 2013-04-08 20:20:56 altgribble has joined
3426 2013-04-08 20:20:56 Painke has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3427 2013-04-08 20:21:01 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: need an HTML/CSS person, to make my stuff look nice
3428 2013-04-08 20:21:02 <topi`> jgarzik: that's pretty interesting, although I don't think 2.7k is that big a number.
3429 2013-04-08 20:21:09 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3430 2013-04-08 20:21:15 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I'd use/recommend it even if it doesn't look nice :x
3431 2013-04-08 20:21:17 Belxjander has joined
3432 2013-04-08 20:21:27 <jgarzik> topi`: it was over 10,000 less than 24 hours ago. people were posting about it on reddit and the forum.
3433 2013-04-08 20:21:40 <sipa> jgarzik: btw, not sure you noticed, but i wrote a small ad-hoc configure script myself for secp256k1
3434 2013-04-08 20:22:12 <jgarzik> sipa: cool. task switched away from that, after getting the first draft working locally
3435 2013-04-08 20:22:20 jeef has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3436 2013-04-08 20:22:21 <topi`> jgarzik: we could try to do some statistics to find out what are the reasons behind that pile of unconfirmed tx's?
3437 2013-04-08 20:22:24 <jgarzik> sipa: once I narrowed the build files down to 3, it worked easily
3438 2013-04-08 20:23:17 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3439 2013-04-08 20:23:21 steve78 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3440 2013-04-08 20:23:22 <Luke-Jr> topi`: most of it is spam that *shouldn't* ever be confirmed
3441 2013-04-08 20:23:23 <sipa> jgarzik: i refactored stuff to, so there are just a few .c files left now, each corresponding to one .o
3442 2013-04-08 20:23:34 <topi`> sipa: btw did you find anything "odd" about that log file? anything that would explain why it was stuck?
3443 2013-04-08 20:23:37 <jgarzik> sipa: ok, will start over then ;p
3444 2013-04-08 20:23:39 <sipa> topi`: nope
3445 2013-04-08 20:23:52 <jgarzik> It's a tiny project, so that's no big deal.
3446 2013-04-08 20:24:00 <sipa> jgarzik: in any case, the configure script explains the logic for selecting the defines/libs
3447 2013-04-08 20:24:02 <topi`> sipa: perhaps I should have added a snapshot of "netstat" to see the status of the sockets...
3448 2013-04-08 20:24:09 i2pRelay has joined
3449 2013-04-08 20:24:21 <sipa> topi`: for how long have you been stuck like that?
3450 2013-04-08 20:24:24 <jgarzik> sipa: yah. I got it building with SSL, then started to add options for --enable-gmp etc. to select alternate builds.
3451 2013-04-08 20:24:29 <jgarzik> er, OpenSSL
3452 2013-04-08 20:24:36 <topi`> sipa: I'd say about 10 minutes
3453 2013-04-08 20:24:46 <sipa> topi`: oh, just wait until a new block is announced
3454 2013-04-08 20:24:47 jeef has joined
3455 2013-04-08 20:24:55 <sipa> topi`: that's known-buggy behaviour
3456 2013-04-08 20:25:08 <topi`> a-ha, and no known fix for it?
3457 2013-04-08 20:25:17 gfinn has joined
3458 2013-04-08 20:25:20 <sipa> yes, there's a pull request actually
3459 2013-04-08 20:25:25 <sipa> may make it into 0.8.2
3460 2013-04-08 20:25:27 <topi`> ok good
3461 2013-04-08 20:25:47 <topi`> anyhow... soon i'm up to date, so I can start SELL SELL SELL :D
3462 2013-04-08 20:25:48 pgvoorhees has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3463 2013-04-08 20:25:59 <topi`> I need to fund some real life projects ;)
3464 2013-04-08 20:26:08 <topi`> mainly fixing my sailing boat...
3465 2013-04-08 20:27:18 coolsa has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3466 2013-04-08 20:27:18 <TD> enjoy :)
3467 2013-04-08 20:27:38 <topi`> well, it's all thanks to the work of you guys
3468 2013-04-08 20:27:54 coolsa has joined
3469 2013-04-08 20:28:18 <topi`> many times I've lost my faith in the project i've been working on... so it's valuable to have the stamina and persistence to tinker with something that's worth believing
3470 2013-04-08 20:28:19 <TD> you're right! you should send us some of your money ;)
3471 2013-04-08 20:28:24 <TD> i kid. i kid.
3472 2013-04-08 20:28:31 <Luke-Jr> lol
3473 2013-04-08 20:28:51 <topi`> i have just some meager coins from mining ;) but I bet many here do as well
3474 2013-04-08 20:29:25 <topi`> we should form sime kind of "kickstarter for bitcoins" that would allow to fund interesting projects outside Visa and friends
3475 2013-04-08 20:29:52 <Irencus> there was one right, a new movie with max keiser
3476 2013-04-08 20:30:06 <topi`> projects ouriented around the bitcoin economy and tech
3477 2013-04-08 20:30:25 <TD> it would be great, yes
3478 2013-04-08 20:30:40 TheBigYak has joined
3479 2013-04-08 20:31:12 <topi`> I remember times when there was a great deal of throwing some coins around, around 23 BTC was offered for a translation of BTC wikipedia page to any language :)
3480 2013-04-08 20:31:41 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3481 2013-04-08 20:32:09 <topi`> of course, wikipedia is important in the sense that some (responsible) reporters would at least check their facts against it
3482 2013-04-08 20:32:34 i2pRelay has joined
3483 2013-04-08 20:32:51 qeb has joined
3484 2013-04-08 20:33:18 wizkid057 has joined
3485 2013-04-08 20:33:24 mariorz has joined
3486 2013-04-08 20:34:17 clr_ has joined
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3488 2013-04-08 20:34:35 clr_ is now known as c00w
3489 2013-04-08 20:34:44 <topi`> I think the #bitcoin channels would offer some interesting fodder for anthropologists studying the corrupting nature of "money", from the humble beginnings of a bunch of hackers to the... well, gold rush :)
3490 2013-04-08 20:34:58 viperhr has joined
3491 2013-04-08 20:36:10 Belxjander has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3492 2013-04-08 20:36:16 Belxjander has joined
3493 2013-04-08 20:36:24 Tom__ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3494 2013-04-08 20:36:42 <TD> it's odd that the blocks are all 250kb. i thought pools were now limiting to "number of locks"
3495 2013-04-08 20:36:45 <TD> so i'd expect some more variance in the size
3496 2013-04-08 20:36:59 Cryo has joined
3497 2013-04-08 20:37:12 Painke has joined
3498 2013-04-08 20:38:18 <sipa> TD: i assume they're just cautious and don't increase the limit?
3499 2013-04-08 20:38:35 <TD> it's a lot of different pools. just a few days ago i saw blocks >243kb
3500 2013-04-08 20:38:47 <TD> so that's a bit odd
3501 2013-04-08 20:39:26 <TD> perhaps if you don't have a bunch of very large transactions, 243kb is the max you go before running out of locks
3502 2013-04-08 20:39:37 <sipa> no
3503 2013-04-08 20:40:07 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3504 2013-04-08 20:40:25 free__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3505 2013-04-08 20:40:26 <sipa> you can certainly go too 500 without running out of locks for minimal transactions
3506 2013-04-08 20:40:40 <sipa> and up to 900 or so for normal ones
3507 2013-04-08 20:41:00 i2pRelay has joined
3508 2013-04-08 20:41:08 <sipa> though until may 15 there's also a limit of max 500 kB iirc
3509 2013-04-08 20:41:50 sacredch1o has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3510 2013-04-08 20:43:13 SchmalzTech has quit ()
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3513 2013-04-08 20:45:44 <MC1984_> so were forcibly bumping of everything under 0.8 because even a network of pure 7 nodes has the locks timebomb in it right
3514 2013-04-08 20:47:02 <TD> sipa: right, there is. i thought the way it was implemented was to estimate the number of locks
3515 2013-04-08 20:47:15 <TD> ah it's in checkblock
3516 2013-04-08 20:47:25 <sipa> yes, only for creation; not a network rule
3517 2013-04-08 20:47:30 <sipa> belt-and-suspenders i guess
3518 2013-04-08 20:48:27 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
3519 2013-04-08 20:48:32 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3520 2013-04-08 20:48:45 * TD whacks his block size limit to 1mb and adds code to send mempool to all new peers
3521 2013-04-08 20:48:50 <TD> just to see what happens
3522 2013-04-08 20:49:15 <TD> ah
3523 2013-04-08 20:49:16 <TD> of course
3524 2013-04-08 20:49:21 <TD> "free transaction rejected by rate limiter"
3525 2013-04-08 20:49:24 i2pRelay has joined
3526 2013-04-08 20:49:29 <TD> still, seems like it got most of them
3527 2013-04-08 20:49:40 BlackPrapor has quit (2!~kvirc@h31-8-76-157.dyn.bashtel.ru|Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3528 2013-04-08 20:50:26 <TD> so, with a 1mb size limit, i can currently fit about half the mempool into it
3529 2013-04-08 20:50:31 <TD> (really 500kb of course)
3530 2013-04-08 20:50:48 <TD> so yes. presumably for some reason pools have gone back to a 250kb limit en-masse. question is, why?
3531 2013-04-08 20:51:09 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3532 2013-04-08 20:51:10 <sipa> i think they're playing safe
3533 2013-04-08 20:51:16 Belxjander has joined
3534 2013-04-08 20:51:45 <TD> hopefully some pool that is a bit less risk averse will come along and drain the pool a bit soon
3535 2013-04-08 20:51:49 <TD> too many pools
3536 2013-04-08 20:52:55 rsmoz has joined
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3538 2013-04-08 20:53:57 sacredch1o has joined
3539 2013-04-08 20:53:57 [\\\] has joined
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3541 2013-04-08 20:54:20 <deadweasel> how do i set armory to automatically start with" --satoshi-datadir=[path]"?
3542 2013-04-08 20:54:36 <sipa> deadweasel: #bitcoin-armory :)
3543 2013-04-08 20:54:45 <deadweasel> lol, thx
3544 2013-04-08 20:56:50 free__ has joined
3545 2013-04-08 20:56:57 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3546 2013-04-08 20:57:47 i2pRelay has joined
3547 2013-04-08 20:57:56 sud3n has joined
3548 2013-04-08 20:58:30 <rsmoz> It was just released an hour ago
3549 2013-04-08 20:58:42 <sipa> ?
3550 2013-04-08 20:58:49 <rsmoz> Sorrt nvm
3551 2013-04-08 20:59:24 flatfly has joined
3552 2013-04-08 21:01:20 <halfie> I am trying to build bitcoin from the git repository. I can't figure out how to build the "qt" GUI?
3553 2013-04-08 21:01:22 <halfie> any tips?
3554 2013-04-08 21:01:50 <sipa> read doc/readme-qt.rst
3555 2013-04-08 21:02:42 <TD> offtopic, but how does one find a friend on facebook via email address these days? is it even possible?!
3556 2013-04-08 21:03:30 raphaelpf has joined
3557 2013-04-08 21:03:49 lorenzi has joined
3558 2013-04-08 21:03:57 raphaelpf has left ()
3559 2013-04-08 21:04:43 <TD> there we go
3560 2013-04-08 21:04:46 farang has joined
3561 2013-04-08 21:04:48 <TD> btc guild has the max size set, thank goodness
3562 2013-04-08 21:05:07 <TD> and just found two blocks in a row. that knocked out half the pool i was able to get
3563 2013-04-08 21:05:21 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3564 2013-04-08 21:05:42 <jgarzik> TD: "max size" == ?
3565 2013-04-08 21:05:49 <jgarzik> 500k?
3566 2013-04-08 21:05:50 <sipa> 500 kB, i assume
3567 2013-04-08 21:06:06 <petertodd> TD: btc guild was also the pool that seems to have mined most of the ridiculous data spam we've been having lately
3568 2013-04-08 21:06:11 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3569 2013-04-08 21:06:14 i2pRelay has joined
3570 2013-04-08 21:06:18 Belxjander has joined
3571 2013-04-08 21:06:20 <petertodd> TD: 100K tx's filled is single satoshi outputs
3572 2013-04-08 21:06:24 <TD> 462kb
3573 2013-04-08 21:06:34 <TD> i guess once you get close to 500kb none of the txns match the needed fees
3574 2013-04-08 21:06:48 Trader795 has joined
3575 2013-04-08 21:06:55 <TD> petertodd: yeah somebody put a file upload tool into the chain and then tried to upload the entire amibios source code to it. stupid.
3576 2013-04-08 21:07:16 <TD> someone thinks it's a lot more important than it really is
3577 2013-04-08 21:07:49 <petertodd> TD: and 2.5MB of wikileaks data, and a whole bunch of GPG encrypted stuff, and the hidden wiki cp/jb sections (no idea if it's all the same person)
3578 2013-04-08 21:08:10 <skinnkavaj> Why is transacations taking longer and longer?
3579 2013-04-08 21:08:13 <rsmoz> Is it acceptable for me to share news here about my new Bitcoin app?
3580 2013-04-08 21:08:15 <jgarzik> TD: ???
3581 2013-04-08 21:08:24 <rsmoz> Or is this for QT devs?
3582 2013-04-08 21:08:31 <Luke-Jr> rsmoz: this isn't a news channel period
3583 2013-04-08 21:08:40 <jgarzik> petertodd, TD: references?
3584 2013-04-08 21:08:40 <Luke-Jr> rsmoz: any dev is fine, but news != dev :p
3585 2013-04-08 21:08:41 <TD> rsmoz: forum is a better place for announcements
3586 2013-04-08 21:08:53 <rsmoz> Alright. Thanks!
3587 2013-04-08 21:08:58 <gmaxwell> rsmoz: feel free to mention it once if you think people would be interested.... better: share a link to a forum post.
3588 2013-04-08 21:08:58 <rsmoz> #bitcoin?
3589 2013-04-08 21:09:03 <petertodd> jgarzik: https://blockchain.info/address/3Dw3UB6VZ3a3ay5diDQVwUFXzKScJJLeVU iirc this is gpg symmetric key encrypted
3590 2013-04-08 21:09:13 <TD> petertodd: fail. someone needs to write a tool that prunes data outputs out.
3591 2013-04-08 21:09:16 <petertodd> jgarzik: (I wrote a tool to download the tool to download data)
3592 2013-04-08 21:09:18 <rsmoz> Would an r/bitcoin post suffice?
3593 2013-04-08 21:09:22 <skinnkavaj> rsmoz: you can post whatever you want in #bitcoin
3594 2013-04-08 21:09:32 <rsmoz> Cool
3595 2013-04-08 21:09:33 <petertodd> TD: I'm not sure you can based on sriptPubKey
3596 2013-04-08 21:09:55 <gmaxwell> TD: they can be spent... so watcha gonna do?
3597 2013-04-08 21:09:55 <TD> OP_HASH <data> OP_EQUAL? That's non standard, isn't it
3598 2013-04-08 21:09:56 symbol has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3599 2013-04-08 21:09:57 <gavinandresen> any scriptPubKey that is a hash of english text cannot be spent
3600 2013-04-08 21:10:00 daybyter has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3601 2013-04-08 21:10:25 <gmaxwell> oh the ones I saw before packed data in additional pubkeys.
3602 2013-04-08 21:10:46 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: dictionary-based protocol rule? :p
3603 2013-04-08 21:10:53 <TD> gmaxwell: they can â¦â¦ if the majority wills it. perhaps if our "are hard forks easy?" experiment works out, outputs identified as being data could be scheduled for future destruction
3604 2013-04-08 21:10:55 MacbookAir has quit (Quit: MacbookAir)
3605 2013-04-08 21:11:20 <TD> like we say there is a hard fork once a year and big compiled lists of outputs we know contain data just get re-allocated to miner fees in the next block
3606 2013-04-08 21:11:31 <topi`> I bet the blockchain is a prime target for all sorts of senseless uploads ... it's like having your favourite teddy sent to the moon
3607 2013-04-08 21:11:32 <sipa> no need for a hard fork for that even
3608 2013-04-08 21:11:45 <TD> people could still encrypt stuff into the chain, but at that point you have to distribute the key such that nobody finds out, and then you don't have any benefit to it being in the chain
3609 2013-04-08 21:11:51 <gavinandresen> hashes with sufficiently low entropy can just be pruned
3610 2013-04-08 21:11:54 <topi`> ewll, at least there is the Len Sassaman obituary in the blockchain
3611 2013-04-08 21:12:01 <petertodd> TD: ...or compiled lists of outputs we know contain stolen funds
3612 2013-04-08 21:12:11 <gmaxwell> so ... twiddling a fee from time to time is too meddling and burdensom but you want to appointint developers the reapers of coins who can decide which outputs to erase from history or not? :(
3613 2013-04-08 21:12:13 <sipa> yeah, slippery slope
3614 2013-04-08 21:12:19 <jgarzik> indeed
3615 2013-04-08 21:12:20 <rsmoz> Where can I find a comprehensive guide that outlines, on a technical level, how bitcoin works?
3616 2013-04-08 21:12:20 <petertodd> gavinandresen: they'll just encrypted it first with known keys, perhaps with key strengthening if they're evil
3617 2013-04-08 21:12:24 <gavinandresen> ⦠no need for a network rule, it is just "sufficiently small chance that it is a valid hash == safe to prune"
3618 2013-04-08 21:12:25 <TD> nice try at de-railing the idea ;) you can't prove something is stolen with the certainty that you can prove something is data
3619 2013-04-08 21:12:27 mercerist has joined
3620 2013-04-08 21:12:32 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: have a suggested rule we could make an isstandard check out of?
3621 2013-04-08 21:12:43 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: pruning makes a network rule
3622 2013-04-08 21:12:46 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell : I don't think it is a big enough problem to worry about, frankly
3623 2013-04-08 21:12:53 <jgarzik> But getting back on track, if BTC Guild mined it, then that is at least partially _our_ fault
3624 2013-04-08 21:12:55 <gavinandresen> ⦠and it fits into my "don't feed the trolls" rule
3625 2013-04-08 21:13:00 <jgarzik> Since they use mostly stock bitcoind AFAIK
3626 2013-04-08 21:13:01 <petertodd> gmaxwell: no outputs < fee would have made that attack way, way more expensive
3627 2013-04-08 21:13:01 <TD> besides, if the money is stolen, the "real" owner wouldn't want it allocated to miner fees
3628 2013-04-08 21:13:05 <gmaxwell> TD: you cannot prove most hashes are data with certanty, these â I suppose. but that doesn't make for a nice rule.
3629 2013-04-08 21:13:08 <TD> that's no better than being stolen
3630 2013-04-08 21:13:18 <TD> gmaxwell: well, you can if you can extract the data.
3631 2013-04-08 21:13:22 Trader795 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3632 2013-04-08 21:13:23 <jgarzik> Therefore, the problem is reduced to avoiding huge dust transactions like this.
3633 2013-04-08 21:13:26 <jgarzik> with fees
3634 2013-04-08 21:13:37 <TD> if you can't extract the data (it's encrypted), then ok,fair play, but then whoever is trying to store the data has to ensure no-one who cares about chain bloat ever finds the key
3635 2013-04-08 21:13:40 <jgarzik> Let's avoid moral decisions
3636 2013-04-08 21:13:42 <jgarzik> stick to technical ones
3637 2013-04-08 21:13:44 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: there were pull requests that would have blocked this which were closed. What do you want?
3638 2013-04-08 21:13:46 <petertodd> jgarzik: +1 you can't stop it, but we can make it easily 10x more expensive if not more, and it's not cheap already
3639 2013-04-08 21:13:47 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3640 2013-04-08 21:13:53 <gavinandresen> Other chains have done "every dust output += min tx fee"
3641 2013-04-08 21:13:54 agath_pd has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
3642 2013-04-08 21:13:55 <TD> if the key ever becomes publicly known, the data will eventually vanish. and then you might as well just distribute the data itself
3643 2013-04-08 21:14:08 saracen has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3644 2013-04-08 21:14:22 <gavinandresen> I still think the rule should just be dust outputs == nonstandard, don't relay/mine.
3645 2013-04-08 21:14:31 <jgarzik> +1
3646 2013-04-08 21:14:40 i2pRelay has joined
3647 2013-04-08 21:14:47 <gavinandresen> ⦠where dust == fraction-of-min-fee
3648 2013-04-08 21:14:47 <TD> well, it's easy to say "any feature that might be useful in future but isn't being used today, and could potentially be abused, delete"
3649 2013-04-08 21:15:02 <sipa> isstandard is not "really" deleting
3650 2013-04-08 21:15:05 <TD> but if you keep going down that road, you just chip away at bitcoins advantages and killer features.
3651 2013-04-08 21:15:12 <sipa> but agree in general
3652 2013-04-08 21:15:21 <petertodd> TD: yes, like permanent, censorship proof, spam proof data storage apparently
3653 2013-04-08 21:15:25 <TD> we already crippled the micropayments functionality with that kind of logic. we can re-activate it, but it's a lot of work.
3654 2013-04-08 21:15:33 saracen has joined
3655 2013-04-08 21:15:35 <gmaxwell> So I was expecting at some point someone would mine a virus string and then AV software would blow us up... but it seems that none of the AV packages look inside the block files. If that had happened I would have proposed we scramble (in the line coding sense, e.g. trivial keyed encryption) the block data so that it would avoid hitting them. Doing that might gum up some of this stupidity. Thoughts?
3656 2013-04-08 21:15:41 <jgarzik> With the caveat that the previously discussed rule -- one output may be 32 bytes plus op_return -- should still be considered
3657 2013-04-08 21:15:56 <TD> well, like i said, it's not really permanent if we don't want it to be. regularly scheduled destructions of known-data outputs would probably not be very controversial.
3658 2013-04-08 21:16:04 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: seems low priority, but not unreasonable
3659 2013-04-08 21:16:20 <sipa> TD: just the fact that it's a slippery slope may make it controversion
3660 2013-04-08 21:16:23 <sipa> (controversial
3661 2013-04-08 21:16:28 <gmaxwell> TD: nothing is anything, in a deep sense, if you go about meddling with the rules of the system
3662 2013-04-08 21:16:34 <flatfly> AV almost never look into anything > 5MB... it's such a joke
3663 2013-04-08 21:16:46 pkjy has joined
3664 2013-04-08 21:16:51 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, what happens when someone encodes a virus specifically taking into account the encoding?
3665 2013-04-08 21:16:52 <TD> i don't know if it's all that slippery. i mean, i'd agree with deletion of data, but not "i happen to think money X is bad for reason Y". if it's actually value owned by a key, that's very different
3666 2013-04-08 21:16:56 * phantomcircuit lols and walks away
3667 2013-04-08 21:16:58 <gmaxwell> TD: "coin loss is not really permanent" we can just modify it to return outputs sent to "0" as if they never happened.
3668 2013-04-08 21:17:02 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: the encoding is keyed.
3669 2013-04-08 21:17:09 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: and different for every user.
3670 2013-04-08 21:17:13 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, was joke :)
3671 2013-04-08 21:17:19 <gavinandresen> yeah, just xor the transactions with the block hash before writing to disk....
3672 2013-04-08 21:17:27 <melvster1> is there a page that shows the algorithm to generate an ECDSA public key from a private key?
3673 2013-04-08 21:17:43 <TD> melvster: the ECDSA specs are public. look for the SEC documents. the equations are in there.
3674 2013-04-08 21:17:53 <melvster1> TD: thanks
3675 2013-04-08 21:17:59 <sipa> melvster1: google for secp256k1
3676 2013-04-08 21:18:02 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: or just have the each user have a random xor mask thats stored at the front of their blockfiles.
3677 2013-04-08 21:18:10 <gmaxwell> doesn't take much.
3678 2013-04-08 21:18:12 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3679 2013-04-08 21:18:14 <jgarzik> indeed
3680 2013-04-08 21:18:14 <melvster1> thx
3681 2013-04-08 21:18:34 agath_pd has joined
3682 2013-04-08 21:18:50 <TD> but sure. the alternative is that over time most nodes prune away the old blocks and that the utxo set isn't directly accessible via the p2p protocol, then the nodes that keep the whole chain charge a little bit of money to download it.
3683 2013-04-08 21:19:05 <TD> so, you know, you can store data there, but you'd have to pay to retrieve it. at which point it's not much better than a regular hosting service.
3684 2013-04-08 21:19:11 safra has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3685 2013-04-08 21:19:51 <TD> anyway
3686 2013-04-08 21:19:55 <TD> not worth worrying about now
3687 2013-04-08 21:20:42 <gmaxwell> TD: ... this invalidates one of the code ideas why bitcoin works: that information is easily shared, hard to stifle. If you charge for the history the obvious thing is that no one will have it, and you can claim it stores â wellâ whatever you think would be "most just" ... I would encourage people arguing here that "all the right reasons" justify gunking with the system manually mediate on what Satoshi wrote at ...
3688 2013-04-08 21:20:48 <gmaxwell> ... http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/bitcoin-open-source about excuses.
3689 2013-04-08 21:21:09 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3690 2013-04-08 21:21:16 <MC1984_> this is how it starts
3691 2013-04-08 21:21:16 Belxjander has joined
3692 2013-04-08 21:21:41 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3693 2013-04-08 21:21:49 <gmaxwell> I certantly believe there are things worth manually goofing with the system forâ but they should generally be clear and obvious existal risks, not "this would be optimal". This would be optimal undermines the reason that our system is arguably something better than $random_money_thing
3694 2013-04-08 21:22:11 <TD> i was thinking in the distant future where the chain is decades old and if you want it to has to be spooled from tape, or something
3695 2013-04-08 21:22:12 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3696 2013-04-08 21:22:19 <TD> and bringing up a node is something you think about before doing
3697 2013-04-08 21:22:31 Goonie_ has joined
3698 2013-04-08 21:22:35 <lianj> sadly yes
3699 2013-04-08 21:22:41 rsmoz has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
3700 2013-04-08 21:23:08 i2pRelay has joined
3701 2013-04-08 21:23:08 <MC1984_> decades in the future
3702 2013-04-08 21:23:10 <MC1984_> tape
3703 2013-04-08 21:23:11 <MC1984_> wot
3704 2013-04-08 21:23:40 Painke has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3705 2013-04-08 21:23:42 <MC1984_> i cant believe people are putting shit in the chain again
3706 2013-04-08 21:23:43 <gmaxwell> Well, an extra gigabyte here and there. is going to be pretty irrelevant to that... and if the data storage goes beyond thatâ there are bigger problems than tape archives.
3707 2013-04-08 21:24:14 <MC1984_> cant we have a altchain specifically for data storage for those that want that sort of thing
3708 2013-04-08 21:24:17 <gmaxwell> MC1984_: presumably they're trying to create fear to crash the price of Bitcoin.
3709 2013-04-08 21:24:26 <MC1984_> packchain or whatever, merge mine it even
3710 2013-04-08 21:24:31 <sipa> or freenet?
3711 2013-04-08 21:24:39 <TD> MC1984_: a block chain is a dumb way to store files
3712 2013-04-08 21:24:39 hnz has joined
3713 2013-04-08 21:24:46 <MC1984_> freened expirs things
3714 2013-04-08 21:24:55 <gmaxwell> yea, ... how about something designed and efficient to store data! but ... people don't listen, and they _want_ to externalize the costs.
3715 2013-04-08 21:25:00 <TD> MC1984_: so an alt chain wouldn't achieve anything. the people doing this don't really "get it" already.
3716 2013-04-08 21:25:06 <petertodd> MC1984_: I'm not surprised it happened right at a all time high frankly. Chances are someone saw the reddit story and realized all those people running "strings" would see it.
3717 2013-04-08 21:25:39 <TD> if you really want a robust way to store random files, gmaxwells storj idea is the way t go
3718 2013-04-08 21:25:42 <gmaxwell> "I'm gonna pack a bunch of data here" is like _the_ thing a lot of people think of.. and it's _really_ hard to dissuade them not to.
3719 2013-04-08 21:25:59 <MC1984_> this is what is going to make it really really expensive to atucally transact on chain
3720 2013-04-08 21:26:09 pkjy has quit (Quit: Bye)
3721 2013-04-08 21:26:10 <MC1984_> and why block limits seem essential
3722 2013-04-08 21:26:11 <warren> are they successfully putting things in the chain now?
3723 2013-04-08 21:26:17 <gmaxwell> TD: storj doesn't force indifferent people to store the data forever.
3724 2013-04-08 21:26:27 <TD> there has always been random data stored in the chain. since the genesis block, in fact :)
3725 2013-04-08 21:26:28 <sipa> "hey this is so cool, authenticated and automatically replicated forever on the entire world! this is the *perfect* data storage system!"
3726 2013-04-08 21:26:29 <petertodd> warren: "succesfully"? it's not like it was ever hard
3727 2013-04-08 21:26:32 <gmaxwell> You have to, you know, pay your share.
3728 2013-04-08 21:27:02 Nick-SF has joined
3729 2013-04-08 21:27:08 <TD> gmaxwell: neither does putting it in the block chain. perhaps we should have an FAQ on that. most nodes will end up pruning away old blocks, in the end. the ones that store the full thing, well, nothing says they have to serve it for free.
3730 2013-04-08 21:27:15 <MC1984_> can a alt chain with different block times be merge mind
3731 2013-04-08 21:27:31 <TD> MC1984_: yes.
3732 2013-04-08 21:27:36 <petertodd> sipa: not to mention how anon has taken down the hiden wiki before, even smallish data can be valuable to permanently store
3733 2013-04-08 21:27:45 <TD> MC1984_: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Alternative_chain
3734 2013-04-08 21:27:59 drapetomano_ has joined
3735 2013-04-08 21:28:32 <MC1984_> so maybe these fucktads could be tempted with a MM altchain with 10x longer and bigger blocks specifically for data storage
3736 2013-04-08 21:28:33 <TD> anyway, simply stuffing something into the chain - if it's not encrypted - doesn't mean it's around forever. the key can be lost.
3737 2013-04-08 21:28:33 <petertodd> TD: the data went in the UTXO set. More to the point, currently UTXO's really need to be stored as full transactions somewhere, or you can't prove to someone else you actually have the funds.
3738 2013-04-08 21:29:06 <sipa> petertodd: well that can just be the owner
3739 2013-04-08 21:29:06 <MC1984_> if they want to buy a 1tb hdd to store someone elses CP then thats up to them
3740 2013-04-08 21:29:22 <petertodd> MC1984_: just checked, surprisingly no-one has put *anything* into the litecoin chain at all, strings returns nothing
3741 2013-04-08 21:29:37 <MC1984_> ha that means its not a real coin
3742 2013-04-08 21:29:44 <sipa> petertodd: litecoin has relatively very high fees, afaik
3743 2013-04-08 21:29:49 <petertodd> sipa: sure, which means you are saying you can't dig up old tx's at all, and you can't sync up new nodes
3744 2013-04-08 21:30:27 <sipa> petertodd: there's a difference between getting bulk data for bringing up a new node, and fast indexed access to arbitrary transactions
3745 2013-04-08 21:30:40 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3746 2013-04-08 21:30:41 <TD> you can sync a new node if you can find someone who will serve you the chain. perhaps, for example, someone will give you the whole chain for free, but you can't just request small parts of it
3747 2013-04-08 21:30:47 <TD> that might be a good solution actually
3748 2013-04-08 21:30:50 <gmaxwell> In any case, I believe petertodd's pull req where outputs*c < fee/kb were not allowed. is the right patch at least for some value of c.
3749 2013-04-08 21:30:53 <MC1984_> like i asked before can a new genesis block be made from the uxto of bitcoin if bitcoin needed to be fixed very badly
3750 2013-04-08 21:30:59 <gmaxwell> (not allowed meaning non-standard)
3751 2013-04-08 21:31:03 <TD> modify the protocol. new nodes that want to download the whole chain can get a copy of it â¦.. encrypted.
3752 2013-04-08 21:31:05 <TD> you get the key at the end
3753 2013-04-08 21:31:15 <sipa> gmaxwell: which pullreq?
3754 2013-04-08 21:31:17 Grouver has quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Would you like to know more?)
3755 2013-04-08 21:31:17 <TD> now if you want to retrieve your amibios source code, or whatever, you have to download the whole chain
3756 2013-04-08 21:31:18 Prattler has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
3757 2013-04-08 21:31:21 <topi`> I wonder how many old blocks could be pruned away? some very old blocks contain very few transactions, and if all those tx's are spent, then that block could be folded?
3758 2013-04-08 21:31:26 <gmaxwell> MC1984_: yea, easily doneâ so long as it adds an extra 10,000 BTC for each of us.
3759 2013-04-08 21:31:30 i2pRelay has joined
3760 2013-04-08 21:31:31 <TD> it wouldn't all be encrypted. just up to the last 6 months or whatever.
3761 2013-04-08 21:31:38 <TD> so you could still sync up nodes that were offline for a while
3762 2013-04-08 21:31:46 <petertodd> TD: no, you just pretend you haven't synced your wallet for awhile
3763 2013-04-08 21:31:55 <gmaxwell> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2351
3764 2013-04-08 21:31:58 <petertodd> TD: you're basically saying you can't find old wallets
3765 2013-04-08 21:32:11 <petertodd> TD: *spend
3766 2013-04-08 21:32:14 <MC1984_> yeah i know it would be a centalisation choke point of horrendous magnitude, but if bitcoin gets so bad.....
3767 2013-04-08 21:32:37 <TD> you'd have to keep wallets online from time to time. if N is six months, ok, sync your wallet every six months or so. it doesn't have to have the private keys online
3768 2013-04-08 21:32:45 <TD> so savings wallets, etc, don't break
3769 2013-04-08 21:32:48 <gmaxwell> (IIRCâ I thought it was a bit too agressive but the right general behavior)
3770 2013-04-08 21:32:49 pib1979 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3771 2013-04-08 21:33:05 chovy has quit (Quit: leaving)
3772 2013-04-08 21:33:17 <petertodd> gmaxwell: by all means, feel free to argue about what 'c' should be
3773 2013-04-08 21:33:27 <warren> gmaxwell: it turns out that litecoin already imposes an additional dust txo fee on top of their already high normal fee.
3774 2013-04-08 21:33:31 <gmaxwell> sipa: the idea is that your own fees tells the network what is economical or not to redeem.
3775 2013-04-08 21:33:39 <petertodd> gmaxwell: it can always be changed later if we pick the wrong one at first
3776 2013-04-08 21:33:39 <gmaxwell> warren: I know it does, and I NAKed that patch.
3777 2013-04-08 21:34:39 Tantadruj has quit (Quit: DoubleRecall Turns Paywalls Into Advertising Dollars - NYTimes.com http://nyti.ms/odHOgy)
3778 2013-04-08 21:34:50 <gmaxwell> warren: see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1536
3779 2013-04-08 21:34:58 <TD> i would rather we find ways to fix issues like this beyond "ban anything that looks abusable". it's a brute force solution that can whack useful things as well. for instance, the smart property/coloured coin protocols people have been designing.
3780 2013-04-08 21:35:10 fabrizziop has joined
3781 2013-04-08 21:35:35 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3782 2013-04-08 21:35:56 <jgarzik> TD: Well, I would value the basic utility currency -- the money part of bitcoin -- over using blockchain as data transit.
3783 2013-04-08 21:36:02 <jgarzik> TD: I bet most users would too
3784 2013-04-08 21:36:03 <gmaxwell> TD: what petertodd's patch does isn't "ban anything that looks abusable" it's a mostly dyanmic behavior that targets the undesirable thing (creating outputs that are worthless) fairly directly.
3785 2013-04-08 21:36:09 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3786 2013-04-08 21:36:13 <warren> reading
3787 2013-04-08 21:36:17 Belxjander has joined
3788 2013-04-08 21:36:35 <topi`> could we have a statistical model against abusive outputs?
3789 2013-04-08 21:36:44 <topi`> like a bayesian spam filter
3790 2013-04-08 21:37:07 <gmaxwell> I wonder if bayesian is some alternative gmaxwell's version of "DHT".
3791 2013-04-08 21:37:18 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3792 2013-04-08 21:37:30 <sipa> we need a bayesian cloud DHT
3793 2013-04-08 21:37:31 <TD> with a volatile exchange rate, the problem is how do you decide what is too small to profitably spend? seems like that's rather related to the exchange rate (your hardware costs are in dollars, the values in the db are bitcoins)
3794 2013-04-08 21:37:32 <petertodd> gmaxwell: fidelity bonded dht with a bayesian spam filter...
3795 2013-04-08 21:38:12 <TD> i quite like the idea of a protocol change that says the chain can be served encrypted, so you have to download everything from the point you request onwards to be able to read any of it. the older the data outputs get, the more time/bandwidth it takes to access them
3796 2013-04-08 21:38:23 _anon has joined
3797 2013-04-08 21:38:37 <gmaxwell> TD: the approach answers that. Your own fees indicate what can be profitably spent. Assuming the market is efficient (HAHA) it's the best possible proxy, if some smarter system would know that the exchange rate was going up or downâ well, we'd trade on that, not dick with fees.
3798 2013-04-08 21:38:41 <TD> i guess you'd need to disable bloom filtering or increase the FP rate the further back you go
3799 2013-04-08 21:39:05 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3800 2013-04-08 21:39:12 <topi`> TD: what about the fact that difficulty follows quite closely (at least in the order of magnitude) the current exchange rate of BTC?
3801 2013-04-08 21:39:15 <gmaxwell> TD: yea, makes it double unlikekly for anyone to discover the 10 billion extra bitcoin that satoshi hid in the blockchain.
3802 2013-04-08 21:39:16 <TD> ok, apologies. i need to read the code.
3803 2013-04-08 21:39:17 <skinnkavaj> Why is transacations taking longer and longer? 1 confirmation in one hour wtf
3804 2013-04-08 21:39:28 <topi`> if you plot difficulty against BTC/USD, you'll see my point visually
3805 2013-04-08 21:39:34 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3806 2013-04-08 21:39:42 <TD> skinnkavaj: we ran out of block space again. it's going to be like this on and off until may 15th
3807 2013-04-08 21:39:43 <petertodd> gmaxwell: reminds me, hht pool put a private key in their coinbase recently
3808 2013-04-08 21:39:54 <TD> ]
3809 2013-04-08 21:39:57 <TD> a private key for what?
3810 2013-04-08 21:39:58 i2pRelay has joined
3811 2013-04-08 21:40:12 <petertodd> TD: a bitcoin
3812 2013-04-08 21:40:30 <TD> huh
3813 2013-04-08 21:40:33 <gmaxwell> TD: basically it assumes that any output will take X bytes to spend, and disallows outputs smaller than X * fee/kb ... so the only parameter is X, and perhaps you might want to set it a little low or a little high to be conservative against killing applications or permitting spam.
3814 2013-04-08 21:40:44 hydrogenesis has joined
3815 2013-04-08 21:40:51 <skinnkavaj> TD: but i will get 100 confirmations eventually?
3816 2013-04-08 21:40:57 <gmaxwell> TD: I sure hope that may 15th doesn't change anything here. Miners creating 1MB blocks of this crap is _not_ good news.
3817 2013-04-08 21:41:12 <TD> the last few blocks i looked at didn't have any obviously bogus transactions in them
3818 2013-04-08 21:41:33 <TD> i think this may be "real" economic activity. even the rate of SD txns popping up on blockchain.info front page seems to have slackened off somewhat
3819 2013-04-08 21:41:35 <gmaxwell> certantly the backlogs over the past couple days certantly did.
3820 2013-04-08 21:41:36 <TD> skinnkavaj: yeah
3821 2013-04-08 21:41:47 <petertodd> probably because whoever inserted this upload/download tool did so in a way that requires you to write a download tool to get it in the first place
3822 2013-04-08 21:41:51 <sipa> skinnkavaj: the only thing that changes is how long it takes to be included in a block, i.e., the first confirmations
3823 2013-04-08 21:42:03 <sipa> skinnkavaj: after that, every block is automatically an extra confirmation
3824 2013-04-08 21:42:04 pib2013 has joined
3825 2013-04-08 21:42:05 HiWEB has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3826 2013-04-08 21:42:18 <petertodd> if someone makes this shit user friendly... gah
3827 2013-04-08 21:42:40 <skinnkavaj> sipa, TD: can't this cause panic cause this problem will get bigger and bigger until 15th may?
3828 2013-04-08 21:43:25 <TD> skinnkavaj: you want my view? sooner or later *something* will go wrong and cause a bubble pop. i'm surprised the instawallet/btcentral thing didn't do it
3829 2013-04-08 21:43:27 toffoo has joined
3830 2013-04-08 21:43:30 <helo> it may just keep people from transferring ~worthless amounts of bitcoin
3831 2013-04-08 21:43:33 Mr_G has joined
3832 2013-04-08 21:43:35 <TD> i guess it didn't get much attention though
3833 2013-04-08 21:44:04 <warren> I'm more concerned about what happens after May 15th.
3834 2013-04-08 21:44:06 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: backlog has gone up and down it hits little peaks and backs off.
3835 2013-04-08 21:44:16 <helo> TD: the media was trying to spin the mtgox lag spike as "a huge bitcoin h[Cack that crashed the value 20%"
3836 2013-04-08 21:44:16 n5 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3837 2013-04-08 21:44:23 <TD> it seems to slacken off at night-time in the USA, no surprise
3838 2013-04-08 21:44:30 <MC1984_> how exactly are people encoding data into transactions again
3839 2013-04-08 21:44:47 <MC1984_> they can put it into txn, they can put it into blocks.....
3840 2013-04-08 21:44:57 <gmaxwell> But clearly having pools increase the block size was the wrong thing to do, as demonstrated by the screwy spam. :( If there is not enough capacity pressure to keep this stuff out then its not actually saturated.
3841 2013-04-08 21:45:21 <petertodd> gmaxwell: The wikileaks thing did cost the inserter $500 in mining fees...
3842 2013-04-08 21:45:25 nomailing has joined
3843 2013-04-08 21:45:32 <petertodd> gmaxwell: They paid 1mBTC/KB
3844 2013-04-08 21:45:43 <sipa> idiots...
3845 2013-04-08 21:45:53 <TD> rich idiot
3846 2013-04-08 21:45:59 fillyscone has joined
3847 2013-04-08 21:46:03 Nick-SF has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3848 2013-04-08 21:46:03 <gmaxwell> "Your wikileaks donations at work" ? :-/
3849 2013-04-08 21:46:06 <TD> haha
3850 2013-04-08 21:46:16 <helo> wasn't the cablegate stuff public already?
3851 2013-04-08 21:46:31 <petertodd> helo: the date on the file was 2010, so absolutely yes
3852 2013-04-08 21:46:33 <sipa> not nearly public enough!
3853 2013-04-08 21:46:34 <gmaxwell> I can imagine: "We have all this bitcoin we can't spend because our bank accounts just get frozen"...
3854 2013-04-08 21:47:17 <helo> hahaha
3855 2013-04-08 21:47:28 Davincij15 has joined
3856 2013-04-08 21:47:32 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3857 2013-04-08 21:47:35 flatfly has quit (Quit: Yo!)
3858 2013-04-08 21:47:44 <gmaxwell> just be glad that it's not something actually problematic this time... :(
3859 2013-04-08 21:47:50 <warren> Far more problematic is if someone inserted material in the blockchain that is illegal in various countries. We lack means to "censor" it.
3860 2013-04-08 21:48:01 <TD> they probably already did
3861 2013-04-08 21:48:13 <petertodd> warren: the hidden wiki stuff that was inserted is probably illegal, it is pointers to cp
3862 2013-04-08 21:48:24 i2pRelay has joined
3863 2013-04-08 21:48:28 <petertodd> warren: at least in some places
3864 2013-04-08 21:48:36 <TD> but if you need special tools to access it - well, that makes it rather pointless. if you don't have the tools, by definition, you cannot have the content.
3865 2013-04-08 21:48:50 <petertodd> TD: unix strings is enough
3866 2013-04-08 21:49:04 <sipa> and tor...
3867 2013-04-08 21:49:06 <warren> Commit lèse-majesté in the blockchain. Praise Falun Gong.
3868 2013-04-08 21:49:20 <gmaxwell> that works for onion urls. ... not much more than that, thankfully.
3869 2013-04-08 21:49:22 MacbookAir has joined
3870 2013-04-08 21:49:23 <TD> yeah, that's like saying a web browser is enough to view illegal content.
3871 2013-04-08 21:49:34 <TD> i mean, there might be some dumb jurisdictions that are looking for an excuse ...
3872 2013-04-08 21:49:36 <helo> anti-religious slogans :/
3873 2013-04-08 21:49:46 <gmaxwell> but the strings thing is the argument for the scrambling.
3874 2013-04-08 21:49:52 <helo> some people take that stuff pretty seriously
3875 2013-04-08 21:50:03 hydrogenesis has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
3876 2013-04-08 21:50:07 <MC1984_> WL themselves actually pulled that shit? source?
3877 2013-04-08 21:50:21 c00w has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
3878 2013-04-08 21:50:25 <sipa> i doubt that
3879 2013-04-08 21:50:26 <warren> There's *one* type of content that would make people in the U.S. freak out. Not mentioning it.
3880 2013-04-08 21:50:32 <gmaxwell> MC1984_: I was kidding!
3881 2013-04-08 21:50:51 <gmaxwell> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrambler (for those who think I'm just being silly with words)
3882 2013-04-08 21:50:52 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3883 2013-04-08 21:51:08 <fillyscone> this channel is having much cooler and interesting conversation than #bitcoin
3884 2013-04-08 21:51:09 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3885 2013-04-08 21:51:17 shesek has joined
3886 2013-04-08 21:51:17 Belxjander has joined
3887 2013-04-08 21:51:22 <fillyscone> can you guys recommend me some other bitcoin related channels?
3888 2013-04-08 21:51:39 <sipa> i'm only in this one :p
3889 2013-04-08 21:51:57 <MC1984_> though actually $500 to spam up the chain by 2.5mb isnt bad
3890 2013-04-08 21:52:18 <warren> MC1984_: except for the externalizing cost part
3891 2013-04-08 21:52:20 shesek has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
3892 2013-04-08 21:52:22 <petertodd> MC1984_: would have been $50 - I noticed other spam stuff was getting confirmed at 0.1mBTC/KB
3893 2013-04-08 21:52:25 <gmaxwell> man, that wikipedia article is confused... lol it mixes up two more or less orthorgonal uses.
3894 2013-04-08 21:52:43 <petertodd> MC1984_: s/spam/data storage/
3895 2013-04-08 21:52:46 shesek has joined
3896 2013-04-08 21:52:47 <topi`> fillyscone: this is mostly for bitcoin development, either the tehnical aspect of it or then a more meta-level approach
3897 2013-04-08 21:53:23 Guest33642 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3898 2013-04-08 21:53:37 <gmaxwell> (I was thinking of the 'whitening' use of the phrase)
3899 2013-04-08 21:55:47 lodse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3900 2013-04-08 21:55:57 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3901 2013-04-08 21:56:20 <gmaxwell> I wish we could do something like what freenet does to make the storage inaccessible to node operators.
3902 2013-04-08 21:56:23 pacpac has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3903 2013-04-08 21:56:47 drapetomano_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3904 2013-04-08 21:56:49 i2pRelay has joined
3905 2013-04-08 21:57:03 <warren> gmaxwell: I'm curious why you NAK'ed that patch, was it the specific parameters or the overall approach that is broken?
3906 2013-04-08 21:57:08 <adm212> how does one set up bitcoind on amazon web services?
3907 2013-04-08 21:57:25 <warren> gmaxwell: this isn't all that different in concept from vinnie's idea that you seemed to like
3908 2013-04-08 21:57:44 <gmaxwell> warren: I think that approach is broken. it just makes it no more expensive (or even cheaper) to just use multiple transactions to add your junk.
3909 2013-04-08 21:59:17 Transisto has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3910 2013-04-08 21:59:20 ner0 has joined
3911 2013-04-08 21:59:32 <gmaxwell> it also exacerbates the problem of having an economically ambigious parmeter which is invalidated by market changes.
3912 2013-04-08 21:59:32 rzoom has joined
3913 2013-04-08 21:59:52 <gmaxwell> e.g. why is <0.01 dust??! why not <1 or <0.001?
3914 2013-04-08 22:00:04 <warren> "economically ambigious parmeter which is invalidated by market changes" I agree. I don't get the first reason though.
3915 2013-04-08 22:00:09 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
3916 2013-04-08 22:00:50 <gmaxwell> warren: because you might as well make N transactions instead of 1 trasnaction with N outputs. The latter is preferable for us (takes less space)
3917 2013-04-08 22:01:19 <gmaxwell> in any case, go see petertodd's pull, which I like.
3918 2013-04-08 22:01:30 asuk has joined
3919 2013-04-08 22:01:57 SvenDiagram has joined
3920 2013-04-08 22:02:10 <gmaxwell> It removes the parameter and replaces it with one that should be market price neutral (market price derivative non-neutral though)
3921 2013-04-08 22:02:33 <warren> sorry, which pull #?
3922 2013-04-08 22:02:58 hyperjacker has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
3923 2013-04-08 22:03:01 <jgarzik> da, petertodd's pullreq is a good start
3924 2013-04-08 22:03:02 <warren> gmaxwell: huh, i'm not sure we're talking about the same issue here.
3925 2013-04-08 22:03:03 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Cellphone IRC... the worst kind...)
3926 2013-04-08 22:03:07 <gmaxwell> warren: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2351
3927 2013-04-08 22:03:31 Transisto has joined
3928 2013-04-08 22:03:31 Transisto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3929 2013-04-08 22:03:39 TD has joined
3930 2013-04-08 22:03:39 <ner0> i'm being plagued by some kind of bug that made me lose a wallet address and a transaction to it, how should i report this?
3931 2013-04-08 22:03:47 jsfsn has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3932 2013-04-08 22:03:51 <gmaxwell> It's not perfect... e.g. a perfect pull would have no parameter to debate at all, but I don't see how thats possible. There is a tradeoff hereâ
3933 2013-04-08 22:04:10 <sipa> ner0: elaborate?
3934 2013-04-08 22:04:17 <TD> ner0: you "lost" an address?
3935 2013-04-08 22:04:21 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3936 2013-04-08 22:04:27 <ner0> yes, i'll elaborate then
3937 2013-04-08 22:04:29 pacpac has joined
3938 2013-04-08 22:04:41 <ner0> 1. Restored bitcoin wallet backup from late 2011;
3939 2013-04-08 22:04:41 <ner0> 2. Opened 'bitcoin-0.8.1-win32';
3940 2013-04-08 22:04:41 <ner0> 3. bitcoin-qt throws error message: "Wallet needed to be rewritten: restart Bitcoin to complete";
3941 2013-04-08 22:04:41 <ner0> 4. Restarted bitcoin-qt and changed passphrase succesfuly;
3942 2013-04-08 22:04:41 <ner0> 5. Created new address succesfully with new passphrase (1JJ5Q...);
3943 2013-04-08 22:04:42 <ner0> 6. Closed bitcoin-qt (File > Exit);
3944 2013-04-08 22:04:44 <ner0> 7. Opened bitcoin-qt again and the previously created address is now gone;
3945 2013-04-08 22:04:46 <ner0> 8. Tried to create new address again with new passphrase but threw error message: "The passphrase entered for the wallet decryption was incorrect.";
3946 2013-04-08 22:04:47 <warren> gmaxwell: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1536/files This isn't about the number of inputs and outputs, it only adds an additional fee if any txo is below a certain size? how does this encourage more transactions?
3947 2013-04-08 22:04:49 <ner0> 9. Created new address again with old passphrase and it then worked;
3948 2013-04-08 22:04:51 <ner0> 10. Still, the first address created in step 5. (1JJ5Q...) is never generated again.
3949 2013-04-08 22:04:53 <sipa> ner0: please don't paste in the channel
3950 2013-04-08 22:05:05 <ner0> huh, sorry how should i do this?
3951 2013-04-08 22:05:10 <sipa> ner0: pastebin
3952 2013-04-08 22:05:13 i2pRelay has joined
3953 2013-04-08 22:05:16 <ner0> alright, sorry again
3954 2013-04-08 22:05:21 <TD> it was only 10 lines. no big deal.
3955 2013-04-08 22:05:30 <gmaxwell> ner0: with new passphrase ???
3956 2013-04-08 22:05:34 <gmaxwell> whats that mean in 8?
3957 2013-04-08 22:05:58 <ner0> the passphrase after i changed it
3958 2013-04-08 22:06:00 Transisto has joined
3959 2013-04-08 22:06:02 neo2 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3960 2013-04-08 22:06:12 <ner0> i can reproduce this at will
3961 2013-04-08 22:06:32 <sipa> ner0: when encrypting the wallet (or first start after encrypting), the previous keypool is flushed
3962 2013-04-08 22:06:32 <gmaxwell> so you keep changing your passphrase? why?
3963 2013-04-08 22:06:50 <sipa> ner0: as those keys were stored on disk in unencrypted form, you don't want to reuse them
3964 2013-04-08 22:06:53 <gmaxwell> ner0: did you perform the ismine test that I advised you to perform when you PMed me this morning?
3965 2013-04-08 22:07:00 <sipa> ner0: they are not deleted though, and anything you receive to it will work
3966 2013-04-08 22:07:04 <Happzz> so if i send a tx with a tiny fee, like 0.00001, will it ever confirm?
3967 2013-04-08 22:07:05 <ner0> yes gmaxwell, i did
3968 2013-04-08 22:07:08 <ner0> not mine
3969 2013-04-08 22:07:28 <helo> ner0: you need to go through all of your backups and do the ismine test, if you haven't yet
3970 2013-04-08 22:07:37 <Mr_G> how much transactions block can have?
3971 2013-04-08 22:07:41 <ner0> i just changed the passphrase once after restoring the old wallet
3972 2013-04-08 22:07:53 <helo> ner0: and do it without messing with the passphrase
3973 2013-04-08 22:08:01 <warren> gmaxwell: heading out, I'll follow up later
3974 2013-04-08 22:08:16 <ner0> i'll try again
3975 2013-04-08 22:09:05 <ner0> the problem is bitcoin-qt does not retain the new address the first time i do this
3976 2013-04-08 22:09:14 <helo> ner0: if none of your unmodified backups don't show that address to be yours, then somehow your key has been lost, or that address wasn't actually ever yours
3977 2013-04-08 22:09:24 hyperjacker has joined
3978 2013-04-08 22:09:43 <ner0> bitcoin-qt generated it for me, i assumed it was actually mine
3979 2013-04-08 22:10:20 <gmaxwell> ner0: I still don't follow what you're doing. Keys generated right after encrypting will _not_ be in the pre-encryption backups.
3980 2013-04-08 22:10:52 <ner0> but wasn't it encrypted before if it had a passphrase associated?
3981 2013-04-08 22:10:54 <gmaxwell> If you restored a pre-encryption backup without keeping the encrypted wallet than keys generated by the encrypted wallet are lost forever.
3982 2013-04-08 22:12:18 <TD> huh, i had no idea charlie shrem was just 23. impressive.
3983 2013-04-08 22:12:21 <gmaxwell> If I recall correctly changing the passphrase also flushes the keypool.
3984 2013-04-08 22:12:37 <ner0> "Wallet needed to be rewritten: restart Bitcoin to complete"
3985 2013-04-08 22:12:38 <ner0> does this mean it is pre-encrypted version?
3986 2013-04-08 22:12:46 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3987 2013-04-08 22:12:59 <Happzz> so if i send a tx with a tiny fee, like 0.00001, how long do you estimate it'll take to get the first confirmation?
3988 2013-04-08 22:13:04 <gmaxwell> ner0: no, older encrypted wallets leaked some data, bitcoin rewrote them to avoid the leak.
3989 2013-04-08 22:13:25 <gmaxwell> Happzz: it'll be treated ~the same as a free transaction.
3990 2013-04-08 22:13:27 <gmaxwell> 14:42 < ner0> 7. Opened bitcoin-qt again and the previously created address is now gone;
3991 2013-04-08 22:13:30 <gmaxwell> 14:42 < ner0> 8. Tried to create new address again with new passphrase but threw error message: "The passphrase entered for the wallet decryption was incorrect.";
3992 2013-04-08 22:13:39 <ner0> yes
3993 2013-04-08 22:13:39 <Happzz> gmaxwell and that means...?
3994 2013-04-08 22:13:39 i2pRelay has joined
3995 2013-04-08 22:13:54 <Happzz> a day? a week?
3996 2013-04-08 22:13:55 Irencus has quit ()
3997 2013-04-08 22:13:56 <gmaxwell> ner0: do you still have that wallet in that state?
3998 2013-04-08 22:14:14 <TD> Happzz: hard to say
3999 2013-04-08 22:14:17 <TD> Happzz: you just have to be patient.
4000 2013-04-08 22:14:18 <ner0> i have the wallet in the state before creating the new address
4001 2013-04-08 22:14:18 <gmaxwell> Happzz: it depends on the transaction, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees most likely fast to hours or never.
4002 2013-04-08 22:14:36 <gmaxwell> Happzz: if the txn meets the rules sometime within hours most likely, otherwise likely never.
4003 2013-04-08 22:14:46 topace has quit (2!~kvirc@ottawa-hs-69-20-234-37.s-ip.magma.ca|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4004 2013-04-08 22:14:54 <Happzz> it shows up on blockchain.info's unconfirmed txs
4005 2013-04-08 22:15:00 <Happzz> so it wasn't dropped along the way
4006 2013-04-08 22:15:07 topace has joined
4007 2013-04-08 22:15:07 <gmaxwell> ner0: changing your passphrase flushes the keypool.
4008 2013-04-08 22:15:39 <ner0> okay, just let me try to explain the problem without changing the passphrase
4009 2013-04-08 22:15:44 MobPhone has quit (Quit: -a- bbl)
4010 2013-04-08 22:15:45 <gmaxwell> Happzz: did you create the txn with bitcoin-qt? It won't let you make one that doesn't meet the rules.
4011 2013-04-08 22:16:04 <Happzz> gmaxwell i'm receiving. can i notice you with the txid?
4012 2013-04-08 22:16:27 <Happzz> i'm basically trying to figure if it'll confirm eventually or never.
4013 2013-04-08 22:16:33 <gmaxwell> sure.
4014 2013-04-08 22:18:16 <ner0> gmaxwell, forget steps 4. 5. & 9. in respect to the passphrase change
4015 2013-04-08 22:18:23 <ner0> same problem
4016 2013-04-08 22:18:32 <ner0> address missing and ismine false
4017 2013-04-08 22:18:58 <gmaxwell> Happzz: my node has it, but isn't working on it for the next block. I'd say "a while, but likely not never"
4018 2013-04-08 22:19:18 <Happzz> gmaxwell can you give me a rought estimation?
4019 2013-04-08 22:19:27 <Happzz> it's been on the network since like 4 hours ago or so
4020 2013-04-08 22:19:29 <ner0> after the transition to this new wallet format, the wallet doesn't save any changes
4021 2013-04-08 22:19:41 <gmaxwell> ner0: I've I've skipped step 5 what address are you taling about.
4022 2013-04-08 22:20:12 <Happzz> i really think those huge pools need to have an option to pay then some fee and make them work on some specific tx
4023 2013-04-08 22:20:15 <ner0> only ignore the part of the pass change, i still created the new address
4024 2013-04-08 22:20:21 <Happzz> to avoid losing money
4025 2013-04-08 22:20:38 <Luke-Jr> tcatm: something wrong with bitcoinwatch?
4026 2013-04-08 22:20:48 <gmaxwell> ner0: so let me restate.. You take this old wallet. You start up. It restarts. You click getnewaddress, write down the address. Restart. and then ismine on the address returns false?
4027 2013-04-08 22:21:02 <ner0> yes, precisely
4028 2013-04-08 22:21:10 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4029 2013-04-08 22:21:20 hyperjac1 has joined
4030 2013-04-08 22:21:20 <ner0> also the address is no longer on the list
4031 2013-04-08 22:21:22 hedgehog35 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
4032 2013-04-08 22:21:33 <gmaxwell> ner0: what happens if you get several new addresses? all of them return false?
4033 2013-04-08 22:21:40 <ner0> i'll try
4034 2013-04-08 22:22:03 i2pRelay has joined
4035 2013-04-08 22:22:19 hyperjacker has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
4036 2013-04-08 22:22:36 metabyte has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4037 2013-04-08 22:22:39 <warren> gmaxwell: oh, do you mean they pay a lower fee than otherwise because they keep the tx smaller by producing more of them?
4038 2013-04-08 22:22:58 <warren> aggregate fee, I guess.
4039 2013-04-08 22:23:24 metabyte has joined
4040 2013-04-08 22:24:04 PhantomSpark has joined
4041 2013-04-08 22:25:07 Painke has joined
4042 2013-04-08 22:25:24 <ner0> <gmaxwell> ner0: what happens if you get several new addresses? all of them return false?
4043 2013-04-08 22:25:31 <ner0> i created 5 new addresses
4044 2013-04-08 22:25:41 <ner0> all missing at the 2nd program start
4045 2013-04-08 22:25:46 <ner0> all ismine=false
4046 2013-04-08 22:27:17 <gmaxwell> ner0: you mean third restart?
4047 2013-04-08 22:27:19 melvster1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
4048 2013-04-08 22:27:27 <ner0> yes, not counting the first one
4049 2013-04-08 22:27:44 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
4050 2013-04-08 22:27:44 <gmaxwell> and if you do this multiple times they're different addresses?
4051 2013-04-08 22:27:55 <ner0> yes, always
4052 2013-04-08 22:28:00 <sipa> does it somehow fail to delete the old wallet file, or move the new one in its place?
4053 2013-04-08 22:28:05 <ner0> it does settle at the 4th start
4054 2013-04-08 22:28:17 <ner0> by then all addresses are maintained
4055 2013-04-08 22:28:20 jaromil_ has joined
4056 2013-04-08 22:28:40 <ner0> this is hardly a problem for people using a current wallet, but i did lose some btc because of this weird behavior
4057 2013-04-08 22:28:49 <sipa> huh??
4058 2013-04-08 22:28:51 jaromil has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4059 2013-04-08 22:28:57 <sipa> after several restarts it does work??
4060 2013-04-08 22:29:01 <sipa> that's even weirder...
4061 2013-04-08 22:29:06 <ner0> yes, 4th to be precise
4062 2013-04-08 22:29:21 <ner0> 1st one being the "Wallet needed to be rewritten: restart Bitcoin to complete"
4063 2013-04-08 22:29:34 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4064 2013-04-08 22:29:38 cultav1x has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4065 2013-04-08 22:29:58 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4066 2013-04-08 22:30:03 jackass_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4067 2013-04-08 22:30:14 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4068 2013-04-08 22:30:16 <ner0> sorry, not 4th but 3rd
4069 2013-04-08 22:30:27 i2pRelay has joined
4070 2013-04-08 22:30:38 qeb has quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"])
4071 2013-04-08 22:33:22 <fishfish> good evening everyone! my testnet loop is showing that there's a new block every few seconds all of a sudden, anyone knows why that is?
4072 2013-04-08 22:33:56 flatfly has joined
4073 2013-04-08 22:33:59 <fishfish> i'm not the only one (or crazy) http://blockexplorer.com/testnet
4074 2013-04-08 22:34:26 <ner0> gmaxwell, would the log file be useful for debugging?
4075 2013-04-08 22:35:36 <gmaxwell> ner0: how are we counting? copy start (first) "restarting message" start (second) getnew shutdown start (third) ismine? (fails) getnew (different?) shutdown start (forth) ismine on last (passes)
4076 2013-04-08 22:35:40 <HM> wow
4077 2013-04-08 22:36:40 <ner0> yes, gmaxwell that's the process
4078 2013-04-08 22:37:26 PhantomSpark has quit (2!~kvirc@pool-71-251-16-105.nycmny.fios.verizon.net|Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
4079 2013-04-08 22:37:26 sensorii has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
4080 2013-04-08 22:37:37 <ner0> what i meant is that at the 3rd start it retains stuff, which can be concluded from the 4th start
4081 2013-04-08 22:37:59 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4082 2013-04-08 22:38:03 free__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4083 2013-04-08 22:38:06 <gmaxwell> forth doesn't repeat the addresses, right, but they show up in ismine / or stay in the address list
4084 2013-04-08 22:38:13 sensorii has joined
4085 2013-04-08 22:38:21 RBecker has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4086 2013-04-08 22:38:50 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
4087 2013-04-08 22:38:54 i2pRelay has joined
4088 2013-04-08 22:39:03 Diapolis has joined
4089 2013-04-08 22:39:09 Masterful has joined
4090 2013-04-08 22:39:11 <ner0> yes
4091 2013-04-08 22:39:26 <ner0> just fyi, the wallet came from Bitcoin version 0.4.0-beta
4092 2013-04-08 22:39:33 _anon has quit (Quit: _anon)
4093 2013-04-08 22:39:39 <Masterful> hey guys I'm running bitcoind -daemon on windows but there is no console prompting any action or nothing
4094 2013-04-08 22:39:56 <Masterful> Can anyone give me some clue to what may be going on?
4095 2013-04-08 22:40:07 <gmaxwell> Masterful: it's a daemon.. there shouldn't be any output.
4096 2013-04-08 22:40:20 <sipa> ner0: that's expected :)
4097 2013-04-08 22:40:22 RBecker has joined
4098 2013-04-08 22:40:23 <gmaxwell> Masterful: run bitcoind getinfo
4099 2013-04-08 22:40:32 <ner0> how so?
4100 2013-04-08 22:40:38 <Masterful> just getinfo or -getinfo?
4101 2013-04-08 22:40:47 <sipa> ner0: because 0.5 is the first version that rewrites wallets after encryption
4102 2013-04-08 22:40:51 <gmaxwell> Masterful: just getinfo
4103 2013-04-08 22:41:02 <sipa> ner0: so if you used that before, it wouldn't have needed to be rewritten anymore
4104 2013-04-08 22:41:03 <gmaxwell> ner0: he just means we knew your wallet came from 0.4 beta.
4105 2013-04-08 22:41:22 <ner0> ah ok =)
4106 2013-04-08 22:41:38 <gmaxwell> I can't fathom why the keys wouldn't be persistant after that first restart however.
4107 2013-04-08 22:41:49 <gmaxwell> oh. I know why.
4108 2013-04-08 22:42:02 <gmaxwell> It can't refill the keypool until you unlock for the first time.
4109 2013-04-08 22:42:21 <gmaxwell> but that doesn't explain ismine failing.
4110 2013-04-08 22:42:21 <sipa> how can that cause that?
4111 2013-04-08 22:42:24 <sipa> indeed
4112 2013-04-08 22:42:47 <gmaxwell> I mean it explains why you'd get different keys in the keypool if you kept copying back the wallet..
4113 2013-04-08 22:44:15 melvster has quit (Read error: No route to host)
4114 2013-04-08 22:44:20 <ner0> gmaxwell, i don't know if the debug log is of any use, anyway: http://pastebin.com/LFA1KJja
4115 2013-04-08 22:44:24 pera has quit (Quit: leaving)
4116 2013-04-08 22:44:34 melvster has joined
4117 2013-04-08 22:44:48 john5223 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
4118 2013-04-08 22:45:36 <ner0> yes, although i'm a noob i can't see why bitcoin-qt would generate an address and later would claim it "invalid" in terms of ownership
4119 2013-04-08 22:45:50 <sipa> ner0: i understand it
4120 2013-04-08 22:45:51 melvster has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4121 2013-04-08 22:46:04 <sipa> ner0: you're rebuilding the database as well at the same time
4122 2013-04-08 22:46:09 <ner0> yes
4123 2013-04-08 22:46:23 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4124 2013-04-08 22:46:30 <sipa> wait, that's not it
4125 2013-04-08 22:46:34 <sipa> there is no wallet
4126 2013-04-08 22:46:45 freewil has joined
4127 2013-04-08 22:46:47 resistor_ has joined
4128 2013-04-08 22:46:52 <ner0> huh?
4129 2013-04-08 22:46:54 one_zero has joined
4130 2013-04-08 22:47:18 i2pRelay has joined
4131 2013-04-08 22:47:36 <sipa> oh wait, no, it's repopulating the key pool
4132 2013-04-08 22:47:51 Mr_G has quit ()
4133 2013-04-08 22:48:51 <sipa> that's expected but doesn't mean it's empty
4134 2013-04-08 22:49:08 <ner0> ismine returns false to a key generated and then lost by bitcoin-qt within the same wallet, it's weird and weirder
4135 2013-04-08 22:49:17 <Luke-Jr> sipa: huh? 0.4.1 did IIRC
4136 2013-04-08 22:50:11 TwilightSparklee has joined
4137 2013-04-08 22:50:22 <sipa> Luke-Jr: indeed
4138 2013-04-08 22:51:05 hyperjac1 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
4139 2013-04-08 22:52:13 OneFixt has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
4140 2013-04-08 22:52:36 OneFixt has joined
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4143 2013-04-08 22:54:48 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4144 2013-04-08 22:55:31 <ner0> is there a way to dump the 100 pre-loaded addresses?
4145 2013-04-08 22:55:43 i2pRelay has joined
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4148 2013-04-08 22:58:22 <Masterful> Ok getting this now: error: couldn't connect to server
4149 2013-04-08 22:58:40 <Masterful> with: bitcoind -datadir=/bitcoin -conf=bitcoin.conf getinfo
4150 2013-04-08 22:59:08 <gmaxwell> Masterful: don't give those arguments..
4151 2013-04-08 22:59:19 <Masterful> why not
4152 2013-04-08 22:59:51 <sipa> is /bitcoin really your datadir?
4153 2013-04-08 22:59:55 <Masterful> yup
4154 2013-04-08 23:00:07 <gmaxwell> as the server was started with the same configuration?
4155 2013-04-08 23:00:10 <sipa> did you start the origin bitcoind with the same arguments?
4156 2013-04-08 23:00:24 <Masterful> oh I have to run a separate server instance?
4157 2013-04-08 23:00:33 <Masterful> with the same daemon?
4158 2013-04-08 23:00:36 lodse has joined
4159 2013-04-08 23:00:40 * Luke-Jr facepalms
4160 2013-04-08 23:01:12 <Masterful> I just thought it worked like bitcoin-qt :P sorry for beinga newb
4161 2013-04-08 23:01:13 <Luke-Jr> Masterful: bitcoind is a JSON-RPC server
4162 2013-04-08 23:01:18 <Masterful> ok
4163 2013-04-08 23:01:23 <Luke-Jr> it's meant for services, not humans :P
4164 2013-04-08 23:01:28 <Masterful> Ah
4165 2013-04-08 23:01:34 <Luke-Jr> the CLI "bitcoind <command>" form is mainly a testing tool
4166 2013-04-08 23:02:10 flatfly has quit (Quit: Yo!)
4167 2013-04-08 23:02:19 <Masterful> whats the purpose of it running on server=0?
4168 2013-04-08 23:02:26 <sipa> you can't
4169 2013-04-08 23:02:33 <Masterful> just to test if the server is recieving commands correctly, or?
4170 2013-04-08 23:02:34 <sipa> bitcoind always has the server enabled
4171 2013-04-08 23:02:48 n5 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
4172 2013-04-08 23:02:49 <sipa> server=1 is for _enabling_ it in bitcoin-qt
4173 2013-04-08 23:02:50 <Masterful> Why is there such option then?
4174 2013-04-08 23:02:58 <Masterful> Oh!!
4175 2013-04-08 23:03:00 <Masterful> thanks
4176 2013-04-08 23:03:03 <sipa> but disabling it on bitcoind makes no sense
4177 2013-04-08 23:03:13 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4178 2013-04-08 23:03:15 <Masterful> That clarifies a thing or two now
4179 2013-04-08 23:03:35 <Masterful> so is there a client RCP tool I can use to test the server?
4180 2013-04-08 23:03:37 <Masterful> without coding one?
4181 2013-04-08 23:03:41 <sipa> RCP?
4182 2013-04-08 23:03:44 <Masterful> *RPC
4183 2013-04-08 23:03:48 <gmaxwell> Masterful: RPC? Yes. Bitcoind
4184 2013-04-08 23:03:56 <gmaxwell> it is the client too, thats what getinfo will do
4185 2013-04-08 23:03:58 <aceat64> Masterful: or use curl
4186 2013-04-08 23:04:04 <Masterful> k
4187 2013-04-08 23:04:06 i2pRelay has joined
4188 2013-04-08 23:04:12 <sipa> Masterful: bitcoind starts the server
4189 2013-04-08 23:04:12 hyperjacker has joined
4190 2013-04-08 23:04:17 <gmaxwell> aceat64: if you like pain.
4191 2013-04-08 23:04:22 <aceat64> Masterful: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_(JSON-RPC)
4192 2013-04-08 23:04:23 <sipa> bitcoind <command> sends command to an existing server
4193 2013-04-08 23:04:27 <Masterful> is I make the server verbose or is it like that by default?
4194 2013-04-08 23:04:31 <Masterful> can
4195 2013-04-08 23:04:36 <aceat64> gmaxwell: curl isn't _that_ bad =P
4196 2013-04-08 23:04:44 <Masterful> I want to see it say stuff when I am accessing it :D
4197 2013-04-08 23:04:54 <sipa> Masterful: -debug will increase the debug output yes, but at this point you don't need that
4198 2013-04-08 23:04:55 <CodeShark> curl is a great way to test the programmatic JSON-RPC interface
4199 2013-04-08 23:05:01 <sipa> it writes debug info to a file called debug.log
4200 2013-04-08 23:05:06 <CodeShark> but not necessary for interactive CLI
4201 2013-04-08 23:05:08 <Masterful> yeah I'll use curl
4202 2013-04-08 23:05:16 <sipa> Masterful: don't
4203 2013-04-08 23:05:20 <sipa> use bitcoind
4204 2013-04-08 23:05:24 <Eliel> Masterful: create a user for accessing bitcoind, create .bitcoin in that user's homedir and add enough settings to bitcoin.conf so it knows how to connect to the main daemon
4205 2013-04-08 23:05:42 <Eliel> and then you can just say "bitcoind getinfo" and such
4206 2013-04-08 23:05:45 <sipa> Masterful: once you know how to use it, you can look at doing things more manually
4207 2013-04-08 23:06:07 <Masterful> Nope I'll learn you guys gave me enough to be able to take it from here :D
4208 2013-04-08 23:06:07 adm212 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4209 2013-04-08 23:06:11 <Masterful> thanks for all the help
4210 2013-04-08 23:06:12 <aceat64> Masterful: are you writing something to interface with bitcoind?
4211 2013-04-08 23:06:16 <aceat64> or just playing around?
4212 2013-04-08 23:06:18 <Masterful> I just never understood what it was before :D
4213 2013-04-08 23:06:29 <Masterful> writing something to interface with it
4214 2013-04-08 23:06:56 paraipan has joined
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4216 2013-04-08 23:07:16 <wallet42> you know httpie?
4217 2013-04-08 23:07:20 <aceat64> ok, then I recommend checking if that language has helpers/functions for RPC and JSON stuff
4218 2013-04-08 23:07:24 <wallet42> its a nice curl replacement
4219 2013-04-08 23:07:33 <wallet42> for testing/debugging web interfaces
4220 2013-04-08 23:07:43 <aceat64> and if you are using PHP, avoid jsonRPCClient
4221 2013-04-08 23:07:58 <CodeShark> absolutely agree with that, aceat64 :)
4222 2013-04-08 23:08:04 <Masterful> is it easy and recomnded to run it with rpcssl?
4223 2013-04-08 23:08:04 <wallet42> httpie.org
4224 2013-04-08 23:08:05 <CodeShark> jsonRPCClient is garbage :p
4225 2013-04-08 23:08:08 <aceat64> fucking fopen kills me
4226 2013-04-08 23:08:19 hyperjacker has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4227 2013-04-08 23:08:23 <aceat64> I wasted far too much time before realizing that fopen is stupid
4228 2013-04-08 23:08:24 lodse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4229 2013-04-08 23:08:44 <CodeShark> jsonRPCClient lacks decent error handling
4230 2013-04-08 23:08:45 <aceat64> I ended up just writing my own object that uses curl
4231 2013-04-08 23:08:51 <CodeShark> we all did, aceat :)
4232 2013-04-08 23:08:55 <aceat64> it ain't pretty, but it works
4233 2013-04-08 23:09:05 <CodeShark> JSON-RPC is such a thin layer anyhow
4234 2013-04-08 23:09:31 <CodeShark> it's silly to use a whole class that doesn't even handle errors correctly when you can just format the post string yourself
4235 2013-04-08 23:10:06 <aceat64> I wrote a really small MVC framework and just made my json-rpc object be the model
4236 2013-04-08 23:10:15 <aceat64> so much easier then fighting with jsonRPCClient
4237 2013-04-08 23:10:45 PhantomSpark has joined
4238 2013-04-08 23:10:46 <aceat64> I was nice though, I updated the bitcoin wiki to point out the fopen/jsonRPCClient flaw
4239 2013-04-08 23:11:19 mouseofthesteppe has joined
4240 2013-04-08 23:11:36 paraipan has quit (Client Quit)
4241 2013-04-08 23:11:38 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4242 2013-04-08 23:11:52 twobitcoins_ has joined
4243 2013-04-08 23:11:59 <gmaxwell> sipa: I've got a file extension for your append only wallets:
4244 2013-04-08 23:11:59 <gmaxwell> 15:49 < serthail> I have the dumbest question of the day. Why is it wallet.dat and not wallet.btc?
4245 2013-04-08 23:12:11 PhantomSpark has joined
4246 2013-04-08 23:12:15 <aceat64> one of these days I'll stop being lazy and write a better library for people to use, maybe this weekend
4247 2013-04-08 23:12:21 <aceat64> and it'll use curl
4248 2013-04-08 23:12:24 <aceat64> muhahahaha
4249 2013-04-08 23:12:31 i2pRelay has joined
4250 2013-04-08 23:13:47 deadweas1l has joined
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4252 2013-04-08 23:14:26 deadweasel has quit (Disconnected by services)
4253 2013-04-08 23:14:35 deadweas1l is now known as deadweasel
4254 2013-04-08 23:14:41 <sipa> gmaxwell: ha!
4255 2013-04-08 23:15:08 free__ has joined
4256 2013-04-08 23:15:21 twobitcoins__ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
4257 2013-04-08 23:15:46 ner0 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
4258 2013-04-08 23:15:47 PhantomSpark has quit (2!~kvirc@ool-44c67dd6.dyn.optonline.net|Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
4259 2013-04-08 23:16:54 <gmaxwell> sipa: any thoughts on how to handle users importing private keys into otherwise determinisic wallets and invaliding their backups? Armory basically punts on this, it seemsâ when you import it basically says "your current backups are screwed, and you can't effectively use paperbackups" with a bunch of text.
4260 2013-04-08 23:17:50 <CodeShark> keep the imported keys separate from determinstic wallets
4261 2013-04-08 23:17:57 <CodeShark> two different kinds of wallets
4262 2013-04-08 23:18:06 catcow has joined
4263 2013-04-08 23:18:15 agricocb has joined
4264 2013-04-08 23:18:16 <CodeShark> requiring completely different key management strategies
4265 2013-04-08 23:18:27 <catcow> i just had a 4.5 hr transaction time 1 BTC btce to bitstamp....that's not normal is it?
4266 2013-04-08 23:18:41 <Masterful> yeh getinfo is working well now thanks gmaxwell
4267 2013-04-08 23:18:51 sud3n has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4268 2013-04-08 23:18:57 TwilightSparklee has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
4269 2013-04-08 23:19:18 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: yea, that would be my guess.. but maybe a way to link them? the problem is what happens when you want to spend from them as a composite pool of funds?
4270 2013-04-08 23:19:22 <sipa> gmaxwell, CodeShark: i thought about just mixing them
4271 2013-04-08 23:19:30 <sipa> a wallet is a set of keys
4272 2013-04-08 23:19:41 <sipa> some keys have properties associated with them for generating others
4273 2013-04-08 23:19:54 <gmaxwell> sipa: well, thats what armory does. But it makes doing stable backups hard. I guess the paper part could be solved at least.
4274 2013-04-08 23:20:00 <Masterful> sipa how many wallets/private keys can bitcoind manage?
4275 2013-04-08 23:20:04 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4276 2013-04-08 23:20:07 <sipa> Masterful: wallets? 1
4277 2013-04-08 23:20:08 Belxjander has joined
4278 2013-04-08 23:20:12 <sipa> Masterful: keys? ~100000
4279 2013-04-08 23:20:19 <CodeShark> wallets soon to be more than 1 :)
4280 2013-04-08 23:20:19 <Masterful> k
4281 2013-04-08 23:20:32 <Masterful> which update will allow multiple wallets?
4282 2013-04-08 23:20:35 <Masterful> 8.2?
4283 2013-04-08 23:20:40 <sipa> no
4284 2013-04-08 23:20:42 <CodeShark> my bitcoind is managing about six wallets right now :)
4285 2013-04-08 23:20:57 i2pRelay has joined
4286 2013-04-08 23:21:01 skinnkavaj has quit (Changing host)
4287 2013-04-08 23:21:02 skinnkavaj has joined
4288 2013-04-08 23:21:06 <Masterful> I guess multiple wallets isnt that important anwyays
4289 2013-04-08 23:21:16 <sipa> i think it is!
4290 2013-04-08 23:21:23 <sipa> people find all sorts of hacks to avoid it
4291 2013-04-08 23:21:47 <gmaxwell> It's even more important when you want to support multiple kinds of wallets, like watch-only wallets.
4292 2013-04-08 23:22:16 <Masterful> When there is multi-wallet support for bitcoind...will it be around ~100000 wallets too?
4293 2013-04-08 23:22:22 <Masterful> Like there is privatekeys support?
4294 2013-04-08 23:22:34 <CodeShark> Masterful, it's the 0/1/many rule :)
4295 2013-04-08 23:22:44 <gmaxwell> I have no intention of testing more than a dozen wallets or so... perhaps it'll work, but no promises on testing.
4296 2013-04-08 23:22:46 <CodeShark> once you have support for two of something, you have support for many
4297 2013-04-08 23:22:57 <Masterful> yeah just making sure ;)
4298 2013-04-08 23:23:10 <Masterful> and there wont be a programatic limatation
4299 2013-04-08 23:23:28 <Masterful> like only restricted by space/processing power
4300 2013-04-08 23:23:38 hyperjacker has joined
4301 2013-04-08 23:23:41 <gmaxwell> if you're thinking of something that would involve 100000 wallets.. uh. sounds like a recepy for saddness.
4302 2013-04-08 23:23:43 <CodeShark> that depends more on your hardware than on the software
4303 2013-04-08 23:23:56 <Masterful> yeah I figured as much
4304 2013-04-08 23:24:11 <Masterful> so when is multi-wallet support coming for bitcoind?
4305 2013-04-08 23:24:14 <Masterful> any estimates?
4306 2013-04-08 23:24:33 <gmaxwell> In the future.
4307 2013-04-08 23:24:39 <Masterful> Hahhaah!
4308 2013-04-08 23:24:55 <sipa> _definitely_ not in the past
4309 2013-04-08 23:25:09 <gdoteof> is cryptographically secure computing a thing? or, if i want to run my own wallet for an online store i need a physical machine? (at least, a hot wallet)
4310 2013-04-08 23:25:13 <gmaxwell> sipa: depends on how much hashing power we can find.
4311 2013-04-08 23:25:27 <CodeShark> Masterful: if you want it now, I have a functioning multiwallet build. but it hasn't been merged with the main branch yet
4312 2013-04-08 23:25:32 <gmaxwell> gdoteof: is the store only recieving funds?
4313 2013-04-08 23:25:45 <gdoteof> gmaxwell: lets say no
4314 2013-04-08 23:25:46 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
4315 2013-04-08 23:25:47 <Masterful> neat what branch is it?
4316 2013-04-08 23:25:59 <CodeShark> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2124
4317 2013-04-08 23:26:27 <gmaxwell> gdoteof: then you'd need trusted computing ... which isn't cryptiographically secure in the strong sense, but it's likely good enough except that it doesn't pratically exist. E.g. no turnkey solutions you can just go buy.
4318 2013-04-08 23:27:45 <TD> it exists. it's not super easy to set up. see hal finneys bcflick for a working example
4319 2013-04-08 23:27:46 <gdoteof> gmaxwell: ok. that is basically what i thought was going on. has "barely hot" wallets been talked about.. like wallets that stay hot for a short of time as possible?
4320 2013-04-08 23:27:57 <gdoteof> TD: thanks
4321 2013-04-08 23:28:28 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4322 2013-04-08 23:28:46 <gmaxwell> TD: you can't go put that on a colo machine.
4323 2013-04-08 23:28:58 <gdoteof> TD: googling that gets me to 10,000BC the movie ;-)
4324 2013-04-08 23:29:06 <TD> right. you'd need a dedicated server. it's theoretically virtualisable, trustvisor does that
4325 2013-04-08 23:29:20 <TD> but afaik nobody has a working demo of using that for bitcoin
4326 2013-04-08 23:29:21 i2pRelay has joined
4327 2013-04-08 23:29:32 <TD> gdoteof: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=154290.0
4328 2013-04-08 23:30:04 <gdoteof> TD: ty
4329 2013-04-08 23:32:06 rsmoz has joined
4330 2013-04-08 23:32:06 ProfNeurus has joined
4331 2013-04-08 23:32:49 <Masterful> Is running a bitcoind server inside a virtual machineon a dedicated server is secure enough using any public hosting company that you don't have your eyes on the physical server 24/7?
4332 2013-04-08 23:32:50 <aceat64> for the issue of people importing keys to HD wallets, would a decent compromise be to use a sweep function instead of importing the key itself? granted that would/could cause a transaction fee and the "imported" address couldn't be used again (since it wasn't actually imported)
4333 2013-04-08 23:33:33 <CodeShark> that's not importing, then
4334 2013-04-08 23:33:48 <aceat64> the end result is similar for many end users
4335 2013-04-08 23:33:50 Ashaman has joined
4336 2013-04-08 23:33:53 someonesomewhere has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4337 2013-04-08 23:34:04 <aceat64> "I have this private key, and I want it's coins"
4338 2013-04-08 23:34:05 <CodeShark> I'd prefer to call that moving funds
4339 2013-04-08 23:34:10 <CodeShark> not importing keys
4340 2013-04-08 23:34:15 <aceat64> fair enough
4341 2013-04-08 23:35:03 sud3n has joined
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4349 2013-04-08 23:42:49 Perlboy has joined
4350 2013-04-08 23:43:53 <Luke-Jr> [23:05:49] <tortib> wow 61 active connections with the client, whatever they did they fixed that issue, will make updating the block chain a lot easier in the future
4351 2013-04-08 23:43:55 <Luke-Jr> facepalm
4352 2013-04-08 23:44:43 pacpac has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4353 2013-04-08 23:45:09 <MC1984_> its a reasonable assumption if you dont know how it works
4354 2013-04-08 23:45:15 <MC1984_> and youre used to torrents
4355 2013-04-08 23:45:17 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4356 2013-04-08 23:45:20 <MC1984_> which everyone is
4357 2013-04-08 23:45:44 <MC1984_> in fact its a reasonable assumption according to how it should work
4358 2013-04-08 23:46:11 i2pRelay has joined
4359 2013-04-08 23:46:12 <sipa> and it is how it should work
4360 2013-04-08 23:46:34 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Sayonara)
4361 2013-04-08 23:46:36 <sipa> (though indexing will probably still be the bottleneck)
4362 2013-04-08 23:48:34 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
4363 2013-04-08 23:49:10 Belxjander has joined
4364 2013-04-08 23:50:06 ralphtheninja has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
4365 2013-04-08 23:51:37 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
4366 2013-04-08 23:52:12 copumpkin has joined
4367 2013-04-08 23:53:44 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4368 2013-04-08 23:53:55 <MC1984_> just make sure it scales with cores
4369 2013-04-08 23:54:37 i2pRelay has joined
4370 2013-04-08 23:54:44 <MC1984_> surely the crazy throughput and seek times of ssds can be optimisd for aswell
4371 2013-04-08 23:55:48 duckybsd has joined
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