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21 2013-04-09 00:16:36 * jgarzik want a wrapper format, for transactions
22 2013-04-09 00:16:50 <jgarzik> Has anyone done that yet? Could be as simple as
23 2013-04-09 00:16:57 <jgarzik> X-format: bitcoin-transaction
24 2013-04-09 00:17:06 <jgarzik> X-data: <raw data, in hex>
25 2013-04-09 00:17:11 <robbak_> Before I do more troubleshooting: build error, using boost 1.52, "/usr/local/include/boost/thread/pthread/condition_variable_fwd.hpp:177: undefined reference to `boost::chrono::system_clock::now()'"
26 2013-04-09 00:17:20 <jgarzik> something besides just the raw transaction data itself
27 2013-04-09 00:18:01 rzoom has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
28 2013-04-09 00:18:21 <robbak_> building src/leveldb/libleveldb.a
29 2013-04-09 00:18:37 <robbak_> building current git.
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32 2013-04-09 00:19:08 <richcollins> When you send to an address, does bitcoin-qt create another address as a 2nd output for the remainder of your coins?
33 2013-04-09 00:19:32 <richcollins> blockchain.info shows 2 output address, the one I sent to and another one
34 2013-04-09 00:19:40 <richcollins> but I don't see this 2nd address in my client
35 2013-04-09 00:19:52 ralphtheninja has joined
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37 2013-04-09 00:22:27 <Luke-Jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2243
38 2013-04-09 00:22:56 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: how about MIME?
39 2013-04-09 00:23:29 <sipa> richcollins: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Change
40 2013-04-09 00:23:56 <richcollins> sipa: Why don't I see the address in the client?
41 2013-04-09 00:24:05 <richcollins> under "Receive Coins"
42 2013-04-09 00:24:11 <richcollins> I just see the original
43 2013-04-09 00:24:12 <sipa> richcollins: it's not an address you're supposed to use to receive coins with
44 2013-04-09 00:24:32 <sipa> richcollins: it's just used once for that change
45 2013-04-09 00:24:34 <richcollins> sipa: So how do I find it?
46 2013-04-09 00:24:39 <sipa> find what?
47 2013-04-09 00:24:43 PixelCrumbs has joined
48 2013-04-09 00:24:45 <richcollins> The change address
49 2013-04-09 00:24:51 <sipa> the client doesn't expose that
50 2013-04-09 00:24:52 <richcollins> what if I want to export its private key?
51 2013-04-09 00:25:39 <richcollins> not good user feedback when used in conjunction with blockchain.info
52 2013-04-09 00:25:57 <richcollins> made me think I might have f'd up and lost my coins
53 2013-04-09 00:26:03 <richcollins> although the balance is correct in bitcoin-qt
54 2013-04-09 00:26:13 someonesomewhere has joined
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56 2013-04-09 00:26:30 <sipa> richcollins: i've written about that here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1bdbsk/bitcoin_client_developers_default_to_sending/c963n0j
57 2013-04-09 00:27:20 <Luke-Jr> richcollins: we can't control blockchain.info's poor presentation
58 2013-04-09 00:27:24 <richcollins> heh
59 2013-04-09 00:27:27 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
60 2013-04-09 00:27:31 <gmaxwell> We can improve ours though.
61 2013-04-09 00:27:44 <richcollins> Well I think of my wallet as a set of "accounts" identified by public keys
62 2013-04-09 00:27:50 <richcollins> is that not a correct model?
63 2013-04-09 00:27:51 <gmaxwell> We should probably make all the address views show "used addresses" ... and we could show change there too.
64 2013-04-09 00:28:11 <richcollins> the accounts have a balance of bitcoins
65 2013-04-09 00:28:16 <gmaxwell> richcollins: This is not a very good model at least. Keys are intended to be used only once.
66 2013-04-09 00:28:21 i2pRelay has joined
67 2013-04-09 00:28:31 <gmaxwell> and there is no balances at all in the bitcoin system. An address does not have a balance.
68 2013-04-09 00:28:36 <richcollins> gmaxwell: So better to think of an account as a set of keys?
69 2013-04-09 00:28:45 <sipa> richcollins: the idea is that you use addresses as 'points of entry' into your wallet, but the wallet is a whole
70 2013-04-09 00:28:48 <richcollins> gmaxwell: Hrm how do you calculate a balance then?
71 2013-04-09 00:28:59 <richcollins> if addresses don't have a balance
72 2013-04-09 00:29:00 <sipa> richcollins: and you abstract from the individual keys the wallet consists of
73 2013-04-09 00:29:13 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: yep, MIME for raw transactions is one possibility
74 2013-04-09 00:29:13 <richcollins> right but those keys still have an associated balance, right?
75 2013-04-09 00:29:21 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: as long as there is a standard that most agree upon
76 2013-04-09 00:29:24 <gmaxwell> The system tracks txoutsâ you can visualize them as coins with addresses written on them.
77 2013-04-09 00:29:25 <sipa> richcollins: well if you break the abstraction, in a way, yes
78 2013-04-09 00:29:29 <richcollins> ok
79 2013-04-09 00:29:29 <jgarzik> I'm not picky about the "wallet wrapper" standard
80 2013-04-09 00:29:35 <jgarzik> just pick one :)
81 2013-04-09 00:29:41 <sipa> richcollins: but that is quite meaningless
82 2013-04-09 00:29:49 <richcollins> Can I use the console to dump the change addresses if I have to?
83 2013-04-09 00:29:53 <jgarzik> er, "transaction wrapper" standard
84 2013-04-09 00:30:03 <sipa> richcollins: the 'balance' of an address is just the sum of the unspent outputs controlled by the key corresponding to an address
85 2013-04-09 00:30:13 <richcollins> sipa: right
86 2013-04-09 00:30:15 <sipa> richcollins: just like the balance of wallet is the sum of the unspent outputs controlled by a wallet
87 2013-04-09 00:30:21 <gmaxwell> richcollins: when as your wallet runs it takes note of every txout it sees that has an address it knows how to spend and adds them to a list. Your balance is the sum of those txouts which are confirmed.
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89 2013-04-09 00:30:38 <richcollins> gmaxwell: makes sense
90 2013-04-09 00:30:41 wallet421 has joined
91 2013-04-09 00:30:41 <gmaxwell> (which it computes on the fly over that data)
92 2013-04-09 00:30:42 <sipa> richcollins: you need to sum anyway- internally, bitcoin doesn't know about the concept of a balance
93 2013-04-09 00:31:02 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: MIME would integrate well with email
94 2013-04-09 00:31:06 <richcollins> sipa: I just like to know how things work in case they go wrong or I need to do something not supported by the UI
95 2013-04-09 00:31:13 <Luke-Jr> application/x-bitcoin-transaction type maybe
96 2013-04-09 00:31:18 <richcollins> anyway thanks for the info
97 2013-04-09 00:31:18 <jgarzik> indeed
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99 2013-04-09 00:31:30 <sipa> richcollins: right; for the sake of learning, digging into it is of course good
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101 2013-04-09 00:31:52 <HM> balance also varies with wallet implementation
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103 2013-04-09 00:32:03 <HM> because wallets have to know how to satisfy scripts, right? :)
104 2013-04-09 00:32:03 <sipa> richcollins: it's just sort-of a problem that combining what you see on blockchain.info (which can only work per-address) combined with how a wallet works, people very easily make the wrong conclusions
105 2013-04-09 00:32:12 <richcollins> I can't think of any reason that I need to get the keys at the moment so I'll cross that bridge if/when I come to it
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107 2013-04-09 00:32:25 <sipa> richcollins: anyway, dumpprivkey works on change addresses, yes
108 2013-04-09 00:32:29 <HM> you could write a client that didn't implement "standard scripts" and it'd show a balance of 0?
109 2013-04-09 00:32:34 <richcollins> sipa: right but I need to find them first
110 2013-04-09 00:32:39 <jgarzik> The main point is that people are going to be exchanging bitcoin transactions, especially unsigned or incomplete transactions, out of band. The transaction wrapper format needs to support that. At a minimum, you need a meta-tag "Hey, the following raw hex data is a bitcoin transaction"
111 2013-04-09 00:32:46 <sipa> richcollins: listunspent will tell you, i think
112 2013-04-09 00:32:47 <jgarzik> But other things could be added as metadata.
113 2013-04-09 00:32:52 <jgarzik> Like payment request info.
114 2013-04-09 00:32:53 <richcollins> sipa: ah ok thx
115 2013-04-09 00:33:01 <HM> jgarzik: why not a human readable format?
116 2013-04-09 00:33:06 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: BIP10.
117 2013-04-09 00:34:04 <HM> symbolic representation of script ops make the whole thing more transparent
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119 2013-04-09 00:34:29 <gmaxwell> HM: and also create awesome compatiblity problems because the serialization has non-canonical forms.
120 2013-04-09 00:34:57 <HM> it does/
121 2013-04-09 00:34:58 <HM> ?
122 2013-04-09 00:35:29 Retik has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
123 2013-04-09 00:35:40 <gmaxwell> or exploiting parser bugs. [GOOD STUFF][LOL EVIL THAT CONFUSES MY VICTIMS PARSER AND REPLACES THE GOOD STUFF]
124 2013-04-09 00:35:41 <HM> i guess displaying a human understandable transaction is a client problem then
125 2013-04-09 00:35:45 <gmaxwell> HM: sure, integers for example.
126 2013-04-09 00:35:48 <robbak_> Before I do more troubleshooting: building current git, using boost 1.52, src/leveldb/libleveldb.a: "/usr/local/include/boost/thread/pthread/condition_variable_fwd.hpp:177: undefined reference to `boost::chrono::system_clock::now()'" Any known issues I should be checking?
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129 2013-04-09 00:36:24 <HM> gmaxwell: why is that the case?
130 2013-04-09 00:36:47 i2pRelay has joined
131 2013-04-09 00:37:39 <gmaxwell> HM: because satoshi defined an integer encoding that was simple and as a result its redundant, e.g. there are three ways to encode a 1. â now, anything that does it in a way other than the smallest way is moronic. ... but there you go.
132 2013-04-09 00:38:01 <Luke-Jr> http://codepad.org/VcGgFbIf
133 2013-04-09 00:38:22 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: meh, I had a good reason to encode it not-the-smallest way :/
134 2013-04-09 00:38:23 <HM> gmaxwell: ah i vaguely remember that
135 2013-04-09 00:38:59 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
136 2013-04-09 00:39:52 <MC-Droid> Bitcointalk.org is the quickest website I've ever seen
137 2013-04-09 00:40:13 <MC-Droid> Wat servers they got on that thing
138 2013-04-09 00:40:36 <sipa> mtgox's, i think
139 2013-04-09 00:41:07 <MC-Droid> Lol, and go lag is now a me me
140 2013-04-09 00:41:13 <MC-Droid> Go lag
141 2013-04-09 00:41:20 <MC-Droid> Goxlag
142 2013-04-09 00:41:58 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: was it omg python code is slow?
143 2013-04-09 00:42:32 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: not quite, I just didn't want to implement satoshi's proprietary varlen :P
144 2013-04-09 00:43:03 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: which I might note has proven to be a source of subtle bugs for both third-party implementations
145 2013-04-09 00:43:05 <gmaxwell> die. Well. die satoshi for making it redundant... otoh, if it wasn't god knows people would be complaining forever about it.
146 2013-04-09 00:43:25 <sipa> "why do you write your websites as .bmp?" - "i didn't like testing multiple browsers"
147 2013-04-09 00:43:45 <Luke-Jr> sipa: haha
148 2013-04-09 00:43:54 <gmaxwell> its one reason people have used flash in the past.
149 2013-04-09 00:44:13 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: both slush and I had bugs in our BIP 34 implementation as a result of it
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151 2013-04-09 00:45:00 <HM> to be fair, satoshis varint saves you a byte on 8 byte ints compared to something like protobufs utf-8 like encoding
152 2013-04-09 00:45:05 <HM> :P
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154 2013-04-09 00:45:24 <gmaxwell> HM: it could have been made _more_ efficient and non-redundant.
155 2013-04-09 00:46:18 <sipa> for values over 2^32, satoshi's varint is very efficient
156 2013-04-09 00:46:49 <gmaxwell> HM: e.g. just for each size subtract the largest value encodable in the next size down.
157 2013-04-09 00:46:50 <sipa> but if you assume many such values, you shouldn't be using varints in the first place if you want efficiency :)
158 2013-04-09 00:47:08 <HM> gmaxwell: sounds terribly mathy :P
159 2013-04-09 00:47:22 <sipa> HM: ever looked at how 'my' varints work? :p
160 2013-04-09 00:47:30 RoboTeddy has joined
161 2013-04-09 00:47:40 <HM> you could show me? :P
162 2013-04-09 00:48:12 <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/serialize.h#L237
163 2013-04-09 00:48:34 <sipa> ... and only now do i realize there's a grammar error in the comments
164 2013-04-09 00:48:54 <HM> but no swear words
165 2013-04-09 00:48:58 <HM> so that's something
166 2013-04-09 00:49:14 <Luke-Jr> sipa: looks like protobuf's IIRC
167 2013-04-09 00:49:51 <sipa> Luke-Jr: mine is unambiguous and smaller
168 2013-04-09 00:50:00 <sipa> (though more cpu intensive)
169 2013-04-09 00:50:11 <sipa> but it's related, yes
170 2013-04-09 00:50:16 <HM> "Encoding does not depend on size of original integer type" ?
171 2013-04-09 00:50:23 <gmaxwell> HM: it's pretty simple to encode efficiencly.. same as the current code but in the branches you just subtract off so that 0 = last size +1.
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174 2013-04-09 00:50:39 <sipa> HM: satoshi's varints can only encode 64-bit integers
175 2013-04-09 00:51:54 <HM> isn't protobufs also only one encoding?
176 2013-04-09 00:52:17 <sipa> every integer can be encoded in infinitely many ways in protobuf
177 2013-04-09 00:52:28 <sipa> (by prepending zeroes)
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179 2013-04-09 00:52:45 <HM> eh?
180 2013-04-09 00:52:56 <HM> if the first bit is 0 then no more bytes follow
181 2013-04-09 00:53:01 <HM> and it's little endian
182 2013-04-09 00:53:12 <HM> so prepending arbitrary bytes would change the value
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185 2013-04-09 00:53:23 <sipa> for example the number 5
186 2013-04-09 00:53:25 <sipa> 0x05
187 2013-04-09 00:53:34 <sipa> or 0x05 0x80
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189 2013-04-09 00:53:39 <sipa> or 0x05 0x80 0x80
190 2013-04-09 00:53:42 <sipa> or ... :)
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192 2013-04-09 00:53:45 <sipa> ehhh
193 2013-04-09 00:53:56 <HM> but the MSB of the first byte is 0, so no more bytes follow...
194 2013-04-09 00:53:59 <sipa> 0x05, or 0x85 0x00, or 0x85 0x80 0x00
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196 2013-04-09 00:54:46 <HM> 0x85 0x00 would be (5 << 7) << 7
197 2013-04-09 00:54:59 <sipa> it's little endian
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199 2013-04-09 00:55:09 <HM> oh yeah
200 2013-04-09 00:55:17 <HM> *facepalm*
201 2013-04-09 00:55:17 <gmaxwell> Then there is the xiph lacing ... value=0; do{x=*data++;value+= x==255?254:x;}while(x==255);
202 2013-04-09 00:55:27 <HM> big endian would sort it though
203 2013-04-09 00:55:33 <HM> right?
204 2013-04-09 00:55:34 <jrmithdobbs> that's pretty much the answer to every time you're like "WTF ISN'T THIS ORDERED RIGHT" re: bitcoin ;p
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207 2013-04-09 00:55:53 <sipa> HM: if it were big endian, i could do the same
208 2013-04-09 00:56:01 <gmaxwell> (e.g. any number is encoded as a sequence of zero or more 0xff which add 254 followed by a final 0-0xff value.ââ optimized for encoding very small values)
209 2013-04-09 00:56:08 <sipa> 0x80 0x80 0x80 0x05
210 2013-04-09 00:56:14 <HM> doh
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212 2013-04-09 00:56:43 <sipa> protobuf is little-endian because it can be decoded by just a few bitshifts
213 2013-04-09 00:56:49 <sipa> iirc
214 2013-04-09 00:56:55 <sipa> for small numbers
215 2013-04-09 00:57:46 <jrmithdobbs> speaking of google, can you actually run those armv7s in the samsung chromebooks as BE for the os?
216 2013-04-09 00:57:55 <jrmithdobbs> would be *great* for testing endianness issues in bitcoin
217 2013-04-09 00:58:07 <HM> sipa, it's too late for me to grok how subtracting 1 helps
218 2013-04-09 00:58:20 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: if you want a BE host, hop on the train and I'll give you a sparc. :P
219 2013-04-09 00:58:24 <jrmithdobbs> (pretty sure "chromeos" runs them LE mode, but if boot debian or something)
220 2013-04-09 00:58:37 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: no i want a usable BE host ;p
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224 2013-04-09 00:59:11 <Belxjander> jrmithdobbs: willing to buy a board to do it?
225 2013-04-09 00:59:16 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: I have a PPC dual g5 with debian too, but you can't have that one.. if you want a shell on it you're welcome to oneâ er, once I figure out what box its in.
226 2013-04-09 00:59:16 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: i got rid of all that crap like 5 years ago finally ... i have a g4 ibook i could use for BE testing if i'd stop being lazy and replace the drive in it (but it's a 2-3 hour ordeal)
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228 2013-04-09 00:59:45 <jrmithdobbs> Belxjander: nah, i just have one of the cheap chromebooks
229 2013-04-09 00:59:55 <gmaxwell> in any case, bitcoin doesn't work on it and there is actually a bunch of stuff that needs to be fixed.
230 2013-04-09 00:59:55 <sipa> HM: basically because it means 0 (in the lower 7 bits) doesn't mean 'add nothing' anymore
231 2013-04-09 01:00:01 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: I'd like access to a shell... so I can try to configure and then download configured sources for bitcoin clients to try and make them on this OS
232 2013-04-09 01:00:21 <sipa> HM: so any byte being added changes the represented value
233 2013-04-09 01:00:26 <jrmithdobbs> it's a Big Project(tm) to get bitcoind/-qt running on BE platforms ;p
234 2013-04-09 01:00:30 Ashaman has joined
235 2013-04-09 01:00:57 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik's picocoin on the other hand ...
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237 2013-04-09 01:01:17 <HM> sipa: how did you think that up?
238 2013-04-09 01:01:34 <sipa> HM: can't remember, a long time ago :)
239 2013-04-09 01:01:47 <jrmithdobbs> Belxjander: i actually got it specifically for NEON op testing though ;p
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242 2013-04-09 01:02:03 <jrmithdobbs> just haven't gotten a useful OS on it yet
243 2013-04-09 01:02:05 agath_pd has joined
244 2013-04-09 01:02:12 <sipa> HM: it can be done both LE and BE, by the way :)
245 2013-04-09 01:03:41 <gmaxwell> HM: it's a similar concept to the xiph lacing I mentioned above, but pivots at 128, so it uses a whole bit for the continuation. E.g. it assumes that the probablity halves for every additional 7 bits of length.
246 2013-04-09 01:04:05 <jrmithdobbs> ya there's a couple other int encoding schemes that make protobuf's make sense if you look at them
247 2013-04-09 01:04:11 <jrmithdobbs> but can't remember the names of the schemes atm
248 2013-04-09 01:04:37 <HM> gmaxwell: actually that reminds me of a arbitrary base conversion routine i saw
249 2013-04-09 01:05:14 <HM> you don't do true base conversion, you just check if values are greater than the representable limit and add another byte
250 2013-04-09 01:05:27 <HM> it takes the same amount of space on average for random input
251 2013-04-09 01:06:42 GlitchNZ has joined
252 2013-04-09 01:06:58 <HM> e.g. for base58 encoding you'd read 4 bytes and mask off 29 bits
253 2013-04-09 01:07:48 <HM> check the value is representable in 5 base58 symbols
254 2013-04-09 01:08:54 <HM> http://codepad.org/zrHtCPff
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256 2013-04-09 01:10:06 <HM> derp derp
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258 2013-04-09 01:10:38 <gmaxwell> in any case, if the probablity function of your length a piece wise exponential function with some constant decay there exist some optimal encoding for the values of this general form
259 2013-04-09 01:11:06 execut3 has joined
260 2013-04-09 01:11:07 <sipa> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golomb_coding ?
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265 2013-04-09 01:14:01 * HM shrugs
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267 2013-04-09 01:15:14 <HM> is there actually an optimal way to convert to convert a stream to an arbitrary non-power of 2 base ?
268 2013-04-09 01:15:32 <HM> (without assuming anything about its distribution)
269 2013-04-09 01:16:35 <sipa> if you don't know anything about its distribution, 'optimal' has no meaning
270 2013-04-09 01:16:37 <jrmithdobbs> optimal depends on the base, so no
271 2013-04-09 01:16:43 <jrmithdobbs> base vs distribution
272 2013-04-09 01:16:46 <gmaxwell> optimal is meaningless without a distribution, you could assume that the distribution is uniform however, which will have minimal regret over all arbitrary true distributions.
273 2013-04-09 01:17:57 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
274 2013-04-09 01:18:08 <HM> hmm indeed
275 2013-04-09 01:18:50 i2pRelay has joined
276 2013-04-09 01:19:02 <gmaxwell> (The KL divergence tells you how screwed you are coding with the wrong distribution)
277 2013-04-09 01:19:42 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
278 2013-04-09 01:20:19 <gmaxwell> (If you find this stuff fun, you could come help me work on video compression work. :P ... though most the cool optimal stuff is throughly slain by needing to be _fast_)
279 2013-04-09 01:20:22 Retik has joined
280 2013-04-09 01:20:59 <HM> you work on xiph projects?
281 2013-04-09 01:21:57 meefozio has joined
282 2013-04-09 01:23:12 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
283 2013-04-09 01:23:43 <gmaxwell> Yes.
284 2013-04-09 01:24:04 ProfNeurus has quit (Quit: ProfNeurus)
285 2013-04-09 01:24:30 Muis has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
286 2013-04-09 01:24:57 Muis has joined
287 2013-04-09 01:25:07 BLZNGPNGN has joined
288 2013-04-09 01:25:16 <HM> well I know the difference between an I, B and P frame :P
289 2013-04-09 01:25:17 darwin__ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
290 2013-04-09 01:25:22 <HM> ask me about wavelets though and I'll cry in the corner
291 2013-04-09 01:25:29 <robbak_> I'm currently bisecting to work out what commit broke leveldb on my system.
292 2013-04-09 01:25:39 agath_pd has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
293 2013-04-09 01:25:53 <HM> or FFT
294 2013-04-09 01:26:03 agath_pd has joined
295 2013-04-09 01:26:11 <HM> covered fourier transform at uni and WAT basically covers it
296 2013-04-09 01:26:17 <robbak_> ...as I receive an email about a fix for something in leveldb.
297 2013-04-09 01:26:22 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
298 2013-04-09 01:26:33 robbak_ is now known as robbak
299 2013-04-09 01:27:18 i2pRelay has joined
300 2013-04-09 01:27:46 <robbak> Does anyone know if it fixes "/usr/local/include/boost/thread/pthread/condition_variable_fwd.hpp:177: undefined reference to `boost::chrono::system_clock::now()'"
301 2013-04-09 01:28:01 <sipa> robbak: -lboost_chrono ?
302 2013-04-09 01:28:19 <robbak> sipa: explain?
303 2013-04-09 01:28:35 <sipa> well it complains you're linking against a symbol from boost chrono that can't be found
304 2013-04-09 01:28:46 <sipa> so perhaps you're not including boost_chrono as a library?
305 2013-04-09 01:28:48 <GlitchNZ> Anyone know any good tools for identifying performance charcteristics of php code?
306 2013-04-09 01:30:56 <robbak> sipa: OK, I'll have to check the boost build settings. Did we start using that lib recently?
307 2013-04-09 01:31:10 <sipa> robbak: are you on a non-standard platform?
308 2013-04-09 01:31:25 <sipa> robbak: and not the boost build settings; bitcoin's
309 2013-04-09 01:31:29 <sipa> or leveldb's
310 2013-04-09 01:31:33 passstab has joined
311 2013-04-09 01:31:34 <robbak> FreeBSD: I maintain the port
312 2013-04-09 01:31:50 <sipa> the dependencies between boost libraries sometimes differ between versions
313 2013-04-09 01:32:37 <robbak> I just built a977b8c4 (Merge pull request #2428 from r000n/staging) succesfully.
314 2013-04-09 01:32:49 Brizzo has joined
315 2013-04-09 01:33:57 <GlitchNZ> How easy is it to get testnet coins?
316 2013-04-09 01:34:13 <robbak> Post a testnet address: Most of us have piles
317 2013-04-09 01:34:48 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
318 2013-04-09 01:35:20 <GlitchNZ> I will just create one....
319 2013-04-09 01:35:43 i2pRelay has joined
320 2013-04-09 01:35:54 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
321 2013-04-09 01:36:23 Phraust has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
322 2013-04-09 01:36:34 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
323 2013-04-09 01:38:18 Phraust has joined
324 2013-04-09 01:40:00 moarrr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
325 2013-04-09 01:40:27 <GlitchNZ> How do I tell if my bitcoinqt client is actually on the testnet?
326 2013-04-09 01:40:55 <robbak> The icon is green, not orange, and the addresses begin with m (or n, I think), not 1
327 2013-04-09 01:41:30 <GlitchNZ> ok, im not on the testnet then....
328 2013-04-09 01:41:54 i2pRelay has joined
329 2013-04-09 01:41:58 <Brizzo> anyone get a chance to look at the new bit-trader software? debating on getting it, just not sure
330 2013-04-09 01:42:09 <GlitchNZ> just forcing the conf location, hopefully it will be there on restart
331 2013-04-09 01:42:29 <robbak> You have to start bitcoin with --testnet.
332 2013-04-09 01:43:04 graingert has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
333 2013-04-09 01:43:08 nsillik has joined
334 2013-04-09 01:43:19 <GlitchNZ> shouldnt setting testnet=1 in the conf be sufficient?
335 2013-04-09 01:43:35 <robbak> Probably: I've never done it that way.
336 2013-04-09 01:43:43 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: sure
337 2013-04-09 01:45:35 <GlitchNZ> what will happen to my existing block database?
338 2013-04-09 01:45:57 <robbak> Nothing. testnet code creates a new folder in .bitcoin and puts testnet stuff in there.
339 2013-04-09 01:46:08 nova90 has joined
340 2013-04-09 01:46:33 <robbak> Of course, backup stuff to be safe.
341 2013-04-09 01:46:42 <robbak> Never risk your wallet.dat
342 2013-04-09 01:46:52 macboz has joined
343 2013-04-09 01:48:58 nova907767 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
344 2013-04-09 01:49:29 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
345 2013-04-09 01:50:10 twobitcoins_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
346 2013-04-09 01:50:23 i2pRelay has joined
347 2013-04-09 01:50:36 twobitcoins_ has joined
348 2013-04-09 01:51:31 winterblack is now known as nethershaw
349 2013-04-09 01:52:02 <GlitchNZ> ok, testnet address: mwgu2AGLhKo2GGi7aXspygJj8PqmsMyy9m
350 2013-04-09 01:52:06 <GlitchNZ> lots of coins welcome
351 2013-04-09 01:52:25 ligar has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
352 2013-04-09 01:52:35 <GlitchNZ> not a huge rush - have to download the entire blockchain - not as bas as the real network but will take a bit of time
353 2013-04-09 01:53:35 ligar has joined
354 2013-04-09 01:53:44 orblivion has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
355 2013-04-09 01:54:52 duckybsd has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
356 2013-04-09 01:55:00 orblivion has joined
357 2013-04-09 01:55:08 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
358 2013-04-09 01:55:16 <MC-Droid> Want coins breh?
359 2013-04-09 01:55:22 Painke has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
360 2013-04-09 01:55:23 fillyscone has joined
361 2013-04-09 01:55:42 Painke has joined
362 2013-04-09 01:55:49 <MC-Droid> I send you ten and a bit you send some back maybe?
363 2013-04-09 01:56:50 <MC-Droid> Fuck I can't even copy text out of this irc that's retarded
364 2013-04-09 01:57:15 <GlitchNZ> that would be apprecieted - put your address in the transaction, I will send back when Im done
365 2013-04-09 01:57:24 <GlitchNZ> will probably take a week or so to do my testing
366 2013-04-09 01:57:24 fillyscone has quit (Client Quit)
367 2013-04-09 01:57:30 <GlitchNZ> how hard is it to generate coins on testnet?
368 2013-04-09 01:57:54 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
369 2013-04-09 01:58:16 <GlitchNZ> you can copy and paste the address from here: http://pastebin.com/YwT4YTHv
370 2013-04-09 01:58:44 i2pRelay has joined
371 2013-04-09 01:59:09 K1773R is now known as OFF!~K1773Rfre@unaffiliated/k1773r|K1773R
372 2013-04-09 02:01:55 Ashaman has joined
373 2013-04-09 02:02:25 <MC-Droid> I send you an amount which makes my balance an integer on this device to ease my OCD somewhat
374 2013-04-09 02:02:33 cschneid has joined
375 2013-04-09 02:02:47 <MC-Droid> Just send em back where they came from when you're ready I spouse
376 2013-04-09 02:03:01 <cschneid> hey - is there a better channel for asking about commercial software that happens to use bitcoin (ie, implementing it), or is this an ok channel?
377 2013-04-09 02:03:16 <cschneid> specifically, what's the general structure of dealing with bitcoin? Run bitcoind, and send json requests to it?
378 2013-04-09 02:03:43 <cschneid> or: something like this https://github.com/lian/bitcoin-ruby
379 2013-04-09 02:03:49 <cschneid> which is an in-ruby implemntation
380 2013-04-09 02:04:36 <GlitchNZ> cschneid - I guess it depends on what you prefer
381 2013-04-09 02:04:49 normanrichards has joined
382 2013-04-09 02:04:57 <cschneid> seems like the json one would be safer, since I'm pretty sure that code is tested better than a ruby impl
383 2013-04-09 02:05:44 <franl> Suppose the community detects a 51% attack (e.g., a blockchain branch rewriting the last 24 hours' blocks and growing at greater than 1 block per 10 minutes). Is there any way to stop it before the attack chain becomes the longest chain?
384 2013-04-09 02:05:47 <GlitchNZ> cschneid I use bitcoind and json rpc, works fine for me and is the most mature client, but if your working in ruby and you would like to use ruby thats probably ok too. I would suggest a ruby implementation would be a lot less efficient
385 2013-04-09 02:06:08 <cschneid> GlitchNZ: it seems like there are jsonrpc wrappers for ruby too. I'll go with that for now.
386 2013-04-09 02:06:14 <cschneid> just sketching out an idea for now anyway :)
387 2013-04-09 02:06:20 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
388 2013-04-09 02:06:30 <GlitchNZ> fran1 the only thing that could be done is a software update to clients to ignre that particular block chain, but if someone is able to do it once, presumably they can do it again
389 2013-04-09 02:07:00 ralphtheninja has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
390 2013-04-09 02:07:12 <franl> GlitchNZ, yeah. Too bad we don't have a proof-of-not-too-much-work algorithm. :)
391 2013-04-09 02:07:16 i2pRelay has joined
392 2013-04-09 02:07:27 <jgarzik> wow
393 2013-04-09 02:07:35 * jgarzik restarts one of his public nodes on HEAD
394 2013-04-09 02:07:39 <jgarzik> 83 connections, within seconds
395 2013-04-09 02:07:45 <jgarzik> we need more full nodes
396 2013-04-09 02:07:54 <jgarzik> 93
397 2013-04-09 02:07:54 SvenDiagram has left ()
398 2013-04-09 02:08:00 gdoteof has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
399 2013-04-09 02:08:01 <jgarzik> need 0.8.2 release stat, too :
400 2013-04-09 02:08:02 ligar has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
401 2013-04-09 02:08:02 <jgarzik> :)
402 2013-04-09 02:08:07 <GlitchNZ> fran1 while theoretically it is possible - i would expect that as soon as a node started showing it hd to large a share of the power, there would be huge incentive for others to invest in technology to reduce their share
403 2013-04-09 02:08:42 <franl> GlitchNZ, for one node with too much hashpower that's doable, but what if it's a pool?
404 2013-04-09 02:08:44 ligar has joined
405 2013-04-09 02:09:30 normanrichards has quit (Client Quit)
406 2013-04-09 02:09:37 <jgarzik> "paytxfee" : 0.00000000,
407 2013-04-09 02:09:37 <jgarzik> "errors" : "EXCEPTION: St9bad_alloc \nstd::bad_alloc \nbitcoin in ProcessMessages() \n"
408 2013-04-09 02:09:38 <GlitchNZ> fran1: exactly the same - if you are a leader of a pool that has 15% of the network, and you see another pool reach 51% what do you think you would do? Probably join forces with other pools and add processing power until the threat was eliminated
409 2013-04-09 02:09:39 <jgarzik> huh
410 2013-04-09 02:09:43 <jgarzik> never seen that before
411 2013-04-09 02:09:56 jaequery has joined
412 2013-04-09 02:10:08 <GlitchNZ> self interest is a powerful force
413 2013-04-09 02:10:18 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: what code are you running?
414 2013-04-09 02:10:27 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: ~0.8.1
415 2013-04-09 02:10:44 <gmaxwell> OKAY.
416 2013-04-09 02:10:46 <franl> GlitchNZ, yep, let's hope that dynamic works.
417 2013-04-09 02:11:22 <GlitchNZ> fran1 as the difficulty increases it becomes more probable that the dynamic is sound - if someone could create that much power - wouldn't they have done so already?
418 2013-04-09 02:12:13 <GlitchNZ> also, aquring 51% of the worlds processing power would be prohibitively expensive, and the only gain would be to devalue the very thing your trying to generate
419 2013-04-09 02:12:29 <MC-Droid> Btc guild is getting close to 50%
420 2013-04-09 02:13:10 <MC-Droid> The op has come out with a voluntary mitigation scheme for it even
421 2013-04-09 02:13:27 <MC-Droid> Which is nice and he's a good poolop
422 2013-04-09 02:13:59 <MC-Droid> But its no different from promising to only use these awesome new powers for good.
423 2013-04-09 02:14:46 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
424 2013-04-09 02:14:49 <franl> A 51% attack would be for the purpose of successfully double-spending. I suppose the only losers are the subset of transaction outputs that got ripped off. The rest of the "bad" hashpower goes to validating non-double-spent transactions.
425 2013-04-09 02:14:56 <MC-Droid> GlitchNZ: you get those coins
426 2013-04-09 02:14:58 ligar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
427 2013-04-09 02:15:04 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
428 2013-04-09 02:15:36 <MC-Droid> You can also stop txn processing dead
429 2013-04-09 02:15:41 i2pRelay has joined
430 2013-04-09 02:16:54 ligar has joined
431 2013-04-09 02:18:40 <franl> Stop txn processing dead ... on a P2P network?
432 2013-04-09 02:20:11 <MC-Droid> Yes
433 2013-04-09 02:20:43 <franl> How would all nodes reach consensus on doing that?
434 2013-04-09 02:20:48 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
435 2013-04-09 02:21:09 <MC-Droid> Mining isn't very p2p anymore
436 2013-04-09 02:21:22 <Luke-Jr> franl: Bitcoin isn't a p2p network. It's a consensus system that uses p2p to broadcast.
437 2013-04-09 02:21:42 <MC-Droid> Mine empty blocks all day and only mine on your own blocks
438 2013-04-09 02:21:49 <MC-Droid> Bitcoin dead son
439 2013-04-09 02:21:50 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
440 2013-04-09 02:21:54 <Luke-Jr> it could just as well be using multicast to replace p2p
441 2013-04-09 02:22:11 nsillik has joined
442 2013-04-09 02:22:57 <gwillen> jgarzik: as far as I'm aware, the only cause of std::bad_alloc is out-of-memory
443 2013-04-09 02:23:12 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
444 2013-04-09 02:23:37 rdymac has joined
445 2013-04-09 02:23:51 <jgarzik> Restarted public node #2
446 2013-04-09 02:23:57 <jgarzik> 101 connections in 30 seconds
447 2013-04-09 02:24:03 <franl> Luke-Jr, sure. So in the face of an oncoming 51% attack, honest miners could temporarilly retreat into mining their own blocks. But that doesn't stop the attack chain from growing inevitably longer than the honest chain, right?
448 2013-04-09 02:24:07 i2pRelay has joined
449 2013-04-09 02:24:23 <Luke-Jr> franl: exactly
450 2013-04-09 02:25:11 MacbookAir has quit (Quit: MacbookAir)
451 2013-04-09 02:25:33 wallet421 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
452 2013-04-09 02:25:48 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
453 2013-04-09 02:26:33 e-v-o has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
454 2013-04-09 02:27:03 fillyscone has joined
455 2013-04-09 02:27:04 <franl> From the start, the parts of Satoshi's paper that most worried me were phrases like "as long as the majority of CPU power is controlled by honest nodes".
456 2013-04-09 02:27:32 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: very rapid connections are suspicious, in the past I observed that many of them were made by ultra agressive hosts that force connections up.
457 2013-04-09 02:27:57 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: you might want to getpeerinfo ... restart... then getpeerinfo again.. and any host that insantly came back blacklist.
458 2013-04-09 02:27:58 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
459 2013-04-09 02:28:14 <Masterful> who says BTC Guild are honest?
460 2013-04-09 02:28:32 <Masterful> If anything they could be the very force that was built to destroy bitcoin.
461 2013-04-09 02:29:00 <MC-Droid> Could be
462 2013-04-09 02:29:01 Masterful has joined
463 2013-04-09 02:29:02 <diki> Purely out of curiosity, how does one create a genesis block from scratch?
464 2013-04-09 02:29:18 Goonie_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
465 2013-04-09 02:29:18 <MC-Droid> But the op came through during the fork crisis
466 2013-04-09 02:29:19 <Masterful> Oh we not allowed to share our perspectives on this subject interesting
467 2013-04-09 02:29:30 Darin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
468 2013-04-09 02:29:37 <gmaxwell> Masterful: the 'personal attacks' are not welcome, no.
469 2013-04-09 02:29:39 <MC-Droid> diki: in notepad
470 2013-04-09 02:29:49 <Masterful> BTC Guild is personal?
471 2013-04-09 02:29:52 <Luke-Jr> Masterful: if you wish to discuss that topic, #bitcoin-mining is the place for it (or #bitcoin )
472 2013-04-09 02:30:08 <Masterful> Aren't they controllers of a mining pool?
473 2013-04-09 02:30:11 <Masterful> I don't even know their names
474 2013-04-09 02:30:13 o3u has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
475 2013-04-09 02:30:13 <Luke-Jr> Masterful: it has nothing to do with development
476 2013-04-09 02:30:16 <Masterful> how can that be personal?
477 2013-04-09 02:30:22 <gmaxwell> Masterful: as luke says, it's mostly offtopic ... and also the person who runs btcguild is often in here and I'm sure would find your words hurtful.
478 2013-04-09 02:30:34 <GlitchNZ> wow - generating bitcoins on testnet is easy
479 2013-04-09 02:30:44 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: "BTCGuild" could just as well refer to crackers taking over their servers *shrug*
480 2013-04-09 02:30:49 <gmaxwell> You can worry about systemic risks in the abstract without implying that any particular person is evil.
481 2013-04-09 02:30:49 <Masterful> Oh I see so you guys serve to protect his feelings how nice!
482 2013-04-09 02:30:54 <GlitchNZ> MC-Droid - you will have your 10 back as soon as my 50BTC reward matures
483 2013-04-09 02:30:54 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: agreed!
484 2013-04-09 02:30:59 <Luke-Jr> Masterful: we'll discuss it, but NOT HERE
485 2013-04-09 02:31:28 <Masterful> The Illuminati doesn't allow it right?
486 2013-04-09 02:31:29 <Luke-Jr> Masterful: everyone who cares to discuss this topic is in #bitcoin and #bitcoin-mining - except oyu
487 2013-04-09 02:31:30 <Luke-Jr> you*
488 2013-04-09 02:31:37 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
489 2013-04-09 02:31:57 Masterful has joined
490 2013-04-09 02:31:59 <gmaxwell> damnit, banlist full again.
491 2013-04-09 02:32:07 <Masterful> All this kicking me, just exposes you guys
492 2013-04-09 02:32:11 <Masterful> now I will go to the media about it
493 2013-04-09 02:32:13 <Masterful> thanks :)
494 2013-04-09 02:32:18 <MC-Droid> Lol
495 2013-04-09 02:32:28 <GlitchNZ> lol
496 2013-04-09 02:32:32 i2pRelay has joined
497 2013-04-09 02:32:35 <MC-Droid> The btcguild guy is pretty stand up
498 2013-04-09 02:33:19 <gmaxwell> Masterful: Good luck with that. "Opensource software developers not tolerant of ignorant and rude person who bargest into their channel with offtopic accusations attacking the character of respected community members! Film at 11"
499 2013-04-09 02:33:23 <GlitchNZ> masterful - better be careful - the guild have some ninjas in the media, just waiting for you to come along
500 2013-04-09 02:33:24 SvenDiagram has joined
501 2013-04-09 02:33:41 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
502 2013-04-09 02:34:11 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: lol
503 2013-04-09 02:34:29 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: the sad thing is, I can see them running a story similar to that..
504 2013-04-09 02:34:46 <MC-Droid> This is what happens when devs do politics
505 2013-04-09 02:36:35 <MC-Droid> GlitchNZ: you Gen a block already?
506 2013-04-09 02:36:37 <GlitchNZ> gmaxwell was this eceptionally lucky, or is it normal for testnet: I generated my own block using just an intel i7 in less than 5 minutes
507 2013-04-09 02:36:51 <GlitchNZ> yes - I hadnt even got my graphics card up and running yet
508 2013-04-09 02:36:57 agath has joined
509 2013-04-09 02:37:06 agath_pd has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
510 2013-04-09 02:37:08 <jrmithdobbs> normal for testnet
511 2013-04-09 02:37:12 <MC-Droid> Test net is pretty low diff
512 2013-04-09 02:37:24 <GlitchNZ> jeez - with my graphics card going, im gonna be a testnet millionaire
513 2013-04-09 02:37:30 <franl> Thanks for helping me think about 51% attacks. Later ...
514 2013-04-09 02:37:31 RBecker is now known as rbecker
515 2013-04-09 02:37:33 franl has quit (Quit: O Elbereth! Gilthoniel! We still remember ...)
516 2013-04-09 02:37:40 <GlitchNZ> whats the exchange rate ont testnet coins?
517 2013-04-09 02:37:41 <GlitchNZ> lol
518 2013-04-09 02:37:54 <jrmithdobbs> 0
519 2013-04-09 02:38:05 <MC-Droid> Whenever they get an exchange rate, test net gets reset
520 2013-04-09 02:38:16 <GlitchNZ> ahhhh
521 2013-04-09 02:38:27 <MC-Droid> It happened once, lols were had
522 2013-04-09 02:38:37 <GlitchNZ> how does that work - everyone just agrees to start again or something?
523 2013-04-09 02:38:42 <gmaxwell> well, testnet is now insecure too.
524 2013-04-09 02:38:46 BLZNGPNGN has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
525 2013-04-09 02:38:52 <saivann> Does anyone have something against the idea of adding Google Analytics on bitcoin.org in order to get statistics?
526 2013-04-09 02:38:55 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: oh?
527 2013-04-09 02:39:18 <jrmithdobbs> testnet is pretty useless, running an isolated network with vms is more useful for testing any how
528 2013-04-09 02:39:20 <MC-Droid> I always assume,ed gmaxwell has a button that says kill test net
529 2013-04-09 02:39:30 ligar has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
530 2013-04-09 02:39:55 BLZNGPNGN has joined
531 2013-04-09 02:40:01 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
532 2013-04-09 02:40:02 <GlitchNZ> jrmithdobbs you mean setting up your own mini bitcoin network?
533 2013-04-09 02:40:02 <gmaxwell> saivann: I am kind of surprised no one is protesting the monitoringâ e.g. google getting a list of all visitors (which they may sell, turn over to whomever etc) ... but I'm not personally complaining because as it is github and sourceforce are in the same position.
534 2013-04-09 02:40:11 <jrmithdobbs> GlitchNZ: yes
535 2013-04-09 02:40:29 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: public testing is useful too... get a mix of unexpected stuff.
536 2013-04-09 02:40:33 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
537 2013-04-09 02:40:42 <GlitchNZ> that would be a hassle - It really is useful to have a testbed built in to the existing setup
538 2013-04-09 02:40:45 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: it's insecure because the 20 minute rule can warp the difficulty back to 1 at any time.
539 2013-04-09 02:40:48 BTCOxygen has joined
540 2013-04-09 02:40:53 ligar has joined
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542 2013-04-09 02:40:57 BTCOxygen has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
543 2013-04-09 02:41:02 <GlitchNZ> I can just flip a switch to go from test to live
544 2013-04-09 02:41:09 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: oh, ha
545 2013-04-09 02:41:19 BTCOxygen has joined
546 2013-04-09 02:41:24 <saivann> gmaxwell : Indeed, it's having useful statistics VS protecting visitor privacy.
547 2013-04-09 02:42:06 <GlitchNZ> why does it take 120 blocks for a reward to mature - seems like a bit of overkill
548 2013-04-09 02:42:14 <jrmithdobbs> saivann: what would the statistics be useful? I can't imagine much worth adding yet another paper trail tbqh
549 2013-04-09 02:42:14 <gmaxwell> If it were I'd prefer privacy, but I think privacy is not an option while it's hosted the way it is.
550 2013-04-09 02:42:22 * GlitchNZ just generated a second block :)
551 2013-04-09 02:42:32 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: it means that if there is a problem and there is a long reorg there are no payments which are forever impossible to replac.e
552 2013-04-09 02:42:37 <saivann> gmaxwell : It may very well not be hosted on github forever
553 2013-04-09 02:42:57 <GlitchNZ> ahh that makes sence
554 2013-04-09 02:43:10 <jrmithdobbs> it will be for the forseeable future ...
555 2013-04-09 02:43:15 jaequery has joined
556 2013-04-09 02:43:16 <gmaxwell> saivann: It's true, but at that time we could also remove analytics in the future. (and replace it with local stats toolsâ which are far less informative but don't compromise privacy)
557 2013-04-09 02:43:26 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: well we have hosting resources now.
558 2013-04-09 02:43:38 <saivann> jrmithdobbs : It's always good to know where your visitor are from, where they come from. We never know what conclusion this can helps us to do until we actually have that information.
559 2013-04-09 02:43:40 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: not from tux?
560 2013-04-09 02:43:43 Casimir1904 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
561 2013-04-09 02:43:55 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: foundation has a fair amount of coin and has made grants to support development.
562 2013-04-09 02:43:58 <GlitchNZ> MC droid - whats your btc address?
563 2013-04-09 02:44:05 <GlitchNZ> (for testent)
564 2013-04-09 02:44:11 <jrmithdobbs> saivann: i reject your base assumption, justify it's usefulness.
565 2013-04-09 02:44:39 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: for example, knowing 1/2 of our visitors were from china would be very helpful in guiding priorities for the site.
566 2013-04-09 02:44:39 Guest24973 has quit (Changing host)
567 2013-04-09 02:44:39 Guest24973 has joined
568 2013-04-09 02:45:03 <saivann> jrmithdobbs : My experience is that it always turns to out to be pretty useful, but once you get the information.
569 2013-04-09 02:45:16 <saivann> Exactly
570 2013-04-09 02:45:21 Guest24973 is now known as JWU42
571 2013-04-09 02:45:38 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: that's only useful if someone's actually actively maintaining the 3 page site ;p
572 2013-04-09 02:46:05 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: and still not much for a software distribution/project site
573 2013-04-09 02:46:17 ToryJujube has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
574 2013-04-09 02:46:35 <saivann> It can also allows us to see where Bitcoin gets more interest in the world, understand what is going, let's us adapt the site to misconception that appears in certain countries, etc.
575 2013-04-09 02:47:08 <jrmithdobbs> for a site with 3 pages with github links?
576 2013-04-09 02:47:26 Ashaman has joined
577 2013-04-09 02:47:32 <saivann> jrmithdobbs : It's already much more than that, and increasing with time, soon translated in many languages
578 2013-04-09 02:47:55 <saivann> Just look at how much commits has been done recently
579 2013-04-09 02:48:27 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
580 2013-04-09 02:48:38 MobPhone has joined
581 2013-04-09 02:48:52 <MC-Droid> GlitchNZ: send em back where they came from
582 2013-04-09 02:48:54 <jrmithdobbs> you may be able to gain some information but nothing worth invading the users' privacy further than is already done
583 2013-04-09 02:48:54 hf7 has quit ()
584 2013-04-09 02:49:15 <jrmithdobbs> and the information gained is of little value/impact to a site devoted to linking to downloads and source code repositories ...
585 2013-04-09 02:49:19 i2pRelay has joined
586 2013-04-09 02:49:40 coolsa has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
587 2013-04-09 02:49:52 <gmaxwell> saivann: I commented with lukewarm support: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/issues/121 lets see if any other last minute objections show up.
588 2013-04-09 02:49:56 BTCOxygen has quit ()
589 2013-04-09 02:49:58 <jrmithdobbs> i'd say it's hosting should be moved and logging turned off completely, if anything
590 2013-04-09 02:50:11 BTCOxygen has joined
591 2013-04-09 02:50:15 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: You offering to run the servers and deal with security on them?
592 2013-04-09 02:50:54 <saivann> gmaxwell : that sounds good
593 2013-04-09 02:50:55 farang has left ()
594 2013-04-09 02:50:57 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: no
595 2013-04-09 02:51:01 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: exactly.
596 2013-04-09 02:51:08 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: but i'll happily object in a pull request to adding analytics
597 2013-04-09 02:51:09 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
598 2013-04-09 02:51:34 <gmaxwell> jrmithdobbs: okay, well, I feel better with an objection there. :P
599 2013-04-09 02:51:42 Tantadruj has quit (Quit: DoubleRecall Turns Paywalls Into Advertising Dollars - NYTimes.com http://nyti.ms/odHOgy)
600 2013-04-09 02:51:45 <gmaxwell> (I mean, with none it seemed that no one was paying attention!)
601 2013-04-09 02:52:02 <jrmithdobbs> i wasn't to that repo, ha
602 2013-04-09 02:52:19 <jrmithdobbs> fixed that
603 2013-04-09 02:52:25 <saivann> However I see no reason not to monitor the website with Webmaster tools, as it does not implie any privacy risk
604 2013-04-09 02:52:46 <saivann> Yeah indeed, I prefer an objection than no answers.
605 2013-04-09 02:53:25 <gmaxwell> saivann: sure, webmaster tools doesn't involve any harmful tradeoff as far as I know... though I don't think it will tell us too much of anything useufl.
606 2013-04-09 02:53:55 nimdAHK has joined
607 2013-04-09 02:53:57 <saivann> gmaxwell : No, it's just a useful tool to remove a page from google, troubleshooting SEO, and such
608 2013-04-09 02:54:09 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Sayonara)
609 2013-04-09 02:54:13 <jrmithdobbs> does it involve javascript running on the page?
610 2013-04-09 02:54:44 <saivann> jrmithdobbs : No, only a .html file in the server to proove Google you own the website, and nobody visits that hidden page.
611 2013-04-09 02:55:10 <bVector> backdoor.html
612 2013-04-09 02:55:12 <jrmithdobbs> so long as it does add *.google.com/* artifacts anywhere
613 2013-04-09 02:55:14 fiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
614 2013-04-09 02:55:16 <jrmithdobbs> doesn't*
615 2013-04-09 02:55:36 Belxjander has joined
616 2013-04-09 02:55:43 wallet42 has joined
617 2013-04-09 02:55:45 <saivann> And it does not contain either javascript or executable code.. It's just plain html..
618 2013-04-09 02:56:09 <jrmithdobbs> ya, and it only has to be there long enough to prove ownership and then removed
619 2013-04-09 02:56:52 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
620 2013-04-09 02:57:43 i2pRelay has joined
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623 2013-04-09 02:58:25 RazielXYZ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
624 2013-04-09 02:59:02 <nimdAHK> looking to collude in taint-analysis disrupting as in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139581.0
625 2013-04-09 02:59:06 <nimdAHK> any takers?
626 2013-04-09 02:59:26 <saivann> BTW I try to keep things running while only waiting for ACK for what I consider to be controversial changes. And I'm always trying to get feedback without uselessly bothering the core developers Are you OK with the way I work so far?
627 2013-04-09 03:00:04 D34TH has quit (Quit: Leaving)
628 2013-04-09 03:00:04 <jgarzik> saivann: me, yes
629 2013-04-09 03:00:10 coolsa has joined
630 2013-04-09 03:01:30 <warren> BTW, not that this matters in the future, but it seems the IRC network is back?
631 2013-04-09 03:01:53 <saivann> jgarzik : For controversial changes such as this one, do you think it's necessary to wait for core developers if I already had some reviews from technical people?
632 2013-04-09 03:01:56 <saivann> jgarzik : https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/118
633 2013-04-09 03:03:17 <GlitchNZ> if you have a system that receives lots of small transactions, is it wise form time to time to send all the funds in the wallet that receives all the small amounts to a single address - before actually using them - I assume this would recombine all the little amounts back into 1 large output.
634 2013-04-09 03:03:22 <jgarzik> saivann: IMO: it seems fair to conduct yourself through github exclusively for changes you feel are not controversial. For anything controversial or requiring technical review, hop on #bitcoin, and request ACKs
635 2013-04-09 03:03:30 ToryJujube has joined
636 2013-04-09 03:03:48 <saivann> jgarzik : #bitcoin, not #bitcoin-dev ?
637 2013-04-09 03:03:49 <jgarzik> saivann: e.g. "Trolling for technical ACKs on 'secure your wallet' page, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/11"
638 2013-04-09 03:03:57 <jgarzik> saivann: sorry, #bitcoin-dev, indeed
639 2013-04-09 03:04:18 wallet42 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
640 2013-04-09 03:04:51 <saivann> jgarzik : Perfect, thanks.
641 2013-04-09 03:05:18 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
642 2013-04-09 03:06:13 i2pRelay has joined
643 2013-04-09 03:06:30 MobPhone_ has joined
644 2013-04-09 03:06:43 MobPhone has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
645 2013-04-09 03:07:26 <jgarzik> saivann: basically a short summary of why you are requesting review or ACKs, plus the link itself
646 2013-04-09 03:08:02 <jgarzik> "short" == one line :) full context comes from the link
647 2013-04-09 03:08:16 <saivann> jgarzik : Yes, for sure :)
648 2013-04-09 03:09:26 <gmaxwell> I think saivann rightfully assessed google analytics as the sort of thing that needed a bit more positive confirmation than typical.
649 2013-04-09 03:09:42 normanrichards has joined
650 2013-04-09 03:09:43 <diki> So how do you create a genesis block?
651 2013-04-09 03:12:14 [\\\] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
652 2013-04-09 03:12:24 PixelCrumbs has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
653 2013-04-09 03:12:43 <midnightmagic> whoah, github sells info?!
654 2013-04-09 03:13:13 <saivann> I take this responsability seriously. If you disagree with something I do at anytime, I will be interested to know it so that I can adjust myself.
655 2013-04-09 03:13:15 <jgarzik> diki: create a random unspendable coinbase transactions, and hash away until you find a suitable difficulty-1 target.
656 2013-04-09 03:13:19 <jgarzik> *transaction
657 2013-04-09 03:13:21 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: agreed
658 2013-04-09 03:13:24 Tantadruj has joined
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660 2013-04-09 03:14:37 i2pRelay has joined
661 2013-04-09 03:15:07 <diki> jgarzik:Odd, the wiki has no information on coinbase
662 2013-04-09 03:16:02 <jgarzik> diki: coinbase is just a special transaction. it has information on transactions and scripts.
663 2013-04-09 03:16:28 <diki> jgarzik:Yeah, but when you don't have previous transactions, how would you even create it?
664 2013-04-09 03:16:32 <jgarzik> diki: coinbase is simply transaction #0. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_rules
665 2013-04-09 03:17:29 [\\\] has joined
666 2013-04-09 03:18:13 <MC-Droid> You make it in a text editor right
667 2013-04-09 03:18:20 <MC-Droid> Like I said
668 2013-04-09 03:18:41 <MC-Droid> Satoshi did I think
669 2013-04-09 03:18:56 realazthat has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
670 2013-04-09 03:19:40 <jgarzik> Satoshi used a CScript constructor
671 2013-04-09 03:21:06 <MC-Droid> The coinbase from the genesis block is unspendable. At first, it was a bug that kept the txid out of the index, but now, we have to explicitly flag that transaction as unspendable. If we don't, then Satoshi has the power to fork the network at will by redeeming it.
672 2013-04-09 03:21:07 <Luke-Jr> hmm
673 2013-04-09 03:21:11 <MC-Droid> Ha is that true
674 2013-04-09 03:21:14 <Luke-Jr> we should probably add a password recommendation to Bitcoin-Qt
675 2013-04-09 03:21:18 <Luke-Jr> for encrypting the wallet
676 2013-04-09 03:22:05 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
677 2013-04-09 03:22:19 <saivann> If translation pull requests follow the guidelines, have at least one native speaker reviewer and is deeply reviewed by me for links/hidden malicious javascript/basic meaning verification, does it seems fair to accept the pull request without spamming core devs for ACKs?
678 2013-04-09 03:22:58 i2pRelay has joined
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680 2013-04-09 03:24:35 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
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683 2013-04-09 03:26:21 realazthat has joined
684 2013-04-09 03:27:15 systemParanoid has joined
685 2013-04-09 03:27:21 <CodeShark> can anyone recommend VPS/dedicated server providers that accept bitcoin?
686 2013-04-09 03:27:37 <DLN-001> Hi Everyone, semi-noob question. Is there one overall best format for key exports? There doesnt seem to be a preferred universal standard.
687 2013-04-09 03:27:51 systemParanoid has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
688 2013-04-09 03:28:11 <CodeShark> base58check is pretty standard in bitcoin
689 2013-04-09 03:28:35 systemParanoid has joined
690 2013-04-09 03:29:27 <DLN-001> TY Code Shark, ill try to stick to that format
691 2013-04-09 03:29:36 <DLN-001> I was interested in your question and found this
692 2013-04-09 03:29:36 <DLN-001> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/135ooo/tailored_vps_now_accepts_bitcoin_for_vps_hosting/
693 2013-04-09 03:29:50 <DLN-001> havent used them, just thought I would share what I found
694 2013-04-09 03:29:52 <DLN-001> thanks again
695 2013-04-09 03:30:19 passstab has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
696 2013-04-09 03:30:26 <diki> MC-Droid:how on earth can you do it in a text editor?
697 2013-04-09 03:30:31 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
698 2013-04-09 03:31:25 i2pRelay has joined
699 2013-04-09 03:31:47 rdponticelli1 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
700 2013-04-09 03:32:48 <MC-Droid> Maybe not text editor but the genesis block was handmade by satoshi
701 2013-04-09 03:33:01 <MC-Droid> How else is it gonna get made?
702 2013-04-09 03:33:04 B0g4r7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
703 2013-04-09 03:33:12 tcatm has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
704 2013-04-09 03:33:13 <diki> That is why I asked :P
705 2013-04-09 03:33:28 tcatm has joined
706 2013-04-09 03:33:30 * warren predicts yet another alt coin will be launched.
707 2013-04-09 03:33:33 <diki> But I still do not get how you'd create a "random coinbase transaction" without actually hashing anything
708 2013-04-09 03:34:01 <MC-Droid> So that's what he did
709 2013-04-09 03:34:33 <jgarzik> diki: you must hash at difficulty 1, as I said
710 2013-04-09 03:34:44 <diki> jgarzik:hash "what" exactly?
711 2013-04-09 03:34:55 <jgarzik> diki: the block header, the thing you always hash
712 2013-04-09 03:35:49 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: whats abnormal in that issue? I see a stop and the normal log progress.
713 2013-04-09 03:35:55 <diki> Yes, ok. But if there is no block header, what do you hash then?
714 2013-04-09 03:35:56 Prattler has joined
715 2013-04-09 03:36:19 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: as the issue states, "Note the lack of "bitcoin exited\n\n\n\n\n\n\n""
716 2013-04-09 03:36:39 ColinT has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
717 2013-04-09 03:36:47 <jgarzik> diki: That question does not make sense. The genesis block... is a block. So of course it has a block header.
718 2013-04-09 03:37:13 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: ah, that didn't go into the github email.
719 2013-04-09 03:38:55 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
720 2013-04-09 03:39:48 i2pRelay has joined
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722 2013-04-09 03:44:35 <diki> jgarzik:In the source code, when the scriptPubKey is set for the genesis block, is that just a randomly typed public key, like by hand?
723 2013-04-09 03:45:19 <diki> no wait, ignore.
724 2013-04-09 03:46:19 <jgarzik> diki: the TxIn's scriptSig is basically random garbage
725 2013-04-09 03:46:40 <diki> which is The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks
726 2013-04-09 03:46:44 <jgarzik> diki: the TxOut's scriptPubKey specifies who can spend the genesis block
727 2013-04-09 03:46:55 pacpac has joined
728 2013-04-09 03:46:57 <jgarzik> diki: HOWEVER, there is a special bitcoin rule, the genesis block cannot be spend.
729 2013-04-09 03:47:12 <jgarzik> diki: yes
730 2013-04-09 03:47:20 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
731 2013-04-09 03:47:21 <jgarzik> *spent
732 2013-04-09 03:47:25 <diki> what about the nonce value?
733 2013-04-09 03:47:37 <diki> like is that randomly derived or actually calculated?
734 2013-04-09 03:48:15 i2pRelay has joined
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736 2013-04-09 03:48:21 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
737 2013-04-09 03:49:15 <jgarzik> diki: it is the thing you change, to make the block header's hash change
738 2013-04-09 03:49:25 <diki> that I know
739 2013-04-09 03:49:38 <diki> I am talking about the genesis block's nonce value
740 2013-04-09 03:49:42 <jgarzik> diki: the nonce value it whatever it must be, to obtain a hash value < target
741 2013-04-09 03:50:13 <jgarzik> diki: the nonce value is not special for the genesis block. the process of mining the genesis block is not different from other blocks, in this respect.
742 2013-04-09 03:52:51 <diki> Well so far reading through the code
743 2013-04-09 03:53:16 fishfishclone has joined
744 2013-04-09 03:53:23 oiram_ has joined
745 2013-04-09 03:53:31 <diki> I come to the conclusion that the nonce value for the genesis block is not actually a "real" nonce.
746 2013-04-09 03:53:37 gst has joined
747 2013-04-09 03:53:48 <diki> in essense it's just a randomly typed number by satoshi
748 2013-04-09 03:55:45 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
749 2013-04-09 03:56:34 fishfish has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
750 2013-04-09 03:56:38 i2pRelay has joined
751 2013-04-09 03:59:55 <diki> Alright I think I got it
752 2013-04-09 04:01:08 <copumpkin> I should remember not to shut down my bitcoin client :/ it really burns up my CPU when I turn it back on after a day or two
753 2013-04-09 04:02:01 <saivann> copumpkin : Yeah, I know someone that gets a computer crash when doing so :)
754 2013-04-09 04:02:07 <diki> jgarzik:It's like this, right? http://pastebin.com/bwZqEey5
755 2013-04-09 04:02:38 <gmaxwell> saivann: sounds like they need a new not broken computer!
756 2013-04-09 04:03:07 <saivann> gmaxwell : There must be a lot of dust in there I guess
757 2013-04-09 04:04:09 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
758 2013-04-09 04:04:22 EPiSKiNG- is now known as EPiSKiNG-`
759 2013-04-09 04:04:26 orblivion has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
760 2013-04-09 04:04:38 EPiSKiNG-` is now known as EPiSKiNG-
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773 2013-04-09 04:13:54 <diki> In file hash.h, on line 48 what would "// invalidates the object" mean?
774 2013-04-09 04:16:08 orblivion has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
775 2013-04-09 04:18:45 Diapolis has joined
776 2013-04-09 04:20:35 <Uisgdlyast> whats that app that doesnt install all the block info? my main drive is running low and cant figure out how to put the bitcoin-qt file on my external drive
777 2013-04-09 04:21:00 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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788 2013-04-09 04:29:41 <PovAddict> "Given just those fields, people would frequently generate the exact same sequence of hashes as each other and the fastest CPU would almost always win. However, it is (nearly) impossible for two people to have the same Merkle root because the first transaction in your block is a generation "sent" to one of your unique Bitcoin addresses."
789 2013-04-09 04:29:44 fillyscone has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
790 2013-04-09 04:30:02 <PovAddict> that makes sense for solo mining, but with pools, what keeps everyone from working on the same data?
791 2013-04-09 04:30:19 i2pRelay has joined
792 2013-04-09 04:30:32 <PovAddict> everyone in the pool is working on blocks where the initial transaction pays the pool owner...
793 2013-04-09 04:33:18 jspilman has joined
794 2013-04-09 04:34:11 kicek has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
795 2013-04-09 04:34:13 <gmaxwell> PovAddict: the pool hands out work with a unique incremented extranonce.
796 2013-04-09 04:34:43 <PovAddict> ah, I haven't stumbled upon 'extranonce' in my doc-reading yet :)
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809 2013-04-09 04:44:41 FredEE has joined
810 2013-04-09 04:44:49 <GlitchNZ> Im having a transaction rejected with code -22 when trying to send to the network
811 2013-04-09 04:45:04 <GlitchNZ> could anyone here help me diagnosed why its being rejected?
812 2013-04-09 04:46:20 <PovAddict> hm
813 2013-04-09 04:46:35 <PovAddict> given two ECDSA keypairs (pub1,priv1) and (pub2,priv2), (pub1+pub2,priv1+priv2) is a valid keypair? that can't be right o.O
814 2013-04-09 04:46:44 <GlitchNZ> its on the tesnet...
815 2013-04-09 04:47:22 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
816 2013-04-09 04:48:20 ligar has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
817 2013-04-09 04:48:36 <GlitchNZ> http://pastebin.com/aYFgFVmQ any ideas would help - it seems valid to me
818 2013-04-09 04:49:34 i2pRelay has joined
819 2013-04-09 04:49:48 ligar has joined
820 2013-04-09 04:52:01 nowan has joined
821 2013-04-09 04:52:29 MC-Droid has quit (Quit: Bye)
822 2013-04-09 04:54:49 Diablo-D3 has left ()
823 2013-04-09 04:54:53 Diablo-D3 has joined
824 2013-04-09 04:55:17 nowan_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
825 2013-04-09 04:56:00 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
826 2013-04-09 04:57:01 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
827 2013-04-09 04:57:11 ProfNeurus has joined
828 2013-04-09 04:57:13 <GlitchNZ> ahh was missing transaction fee
829 2013-04-09 04:57:54 i2pRelay has joined
830 2013-04-09 04:58:56 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: how much code are you writing in rust?
831 2013-04-09 05:00:37 Darin has joined
832 2013-04-09 05:00:50 <sivu> so.. what happens when somebody puts CP in the transaction
833 2013-04-09 05:01:00 <Diablo-D3> sivu: we can fork around it
834 2013-04-09 05:01:04 <Diablo-D3> but it otherwise doesn't matter
835 2013-04-09 05:01:27 <GlitchNZ> is there somewhere i can see the exact forumla for calculating the correct transaction fee?
836 2013-04-09 05:01:37 <Diablo-D3> the powers of satan will always try to attack those who have been purified by the anguish of Jesus
837 2013-04-09 05:01:50 <Diablo-D3> GlitchNZ: usually 0.005 per kb
838 2013-04-09 05:01:59 <PovAddict> hm
839 2013-04-09 05:02:15 <GlitchNZ> thanks, however I did use the word 'Exact; in that question
840 2013-04-09 05:02:19 <PovAddict> I *think* there isn't necessarily a formula, a miner may very well choose to accept any transaction without efes
841 2013-04-09 05:02:25 <PovAddict> without charging fees*
842 2013-04-09 05:02:34 <Diablo-D3> GlitchNZ: well, you cant exactly know because you'd need to generate the tx to find out how big it is
843 2013-04-09 05:02:43 <GlitchNZ> bitcoind will not send transactions out on the netwrk unless they have the correct fee
844 2013-04-09 05:02:51 <PovAddict> ah, client-side limit
845 2013-04-09 05:02:54 <GlitchNZ> Diablo - that is exactly what I am doing
846 2013-04-09 05:03:11 <Diablo-D3> GlitchNZ: then take the wire encoded size of it and do what I said
847 2013-04-09 05:03:26 <PovAddict> increase by 0.0001 until it gets accepted? :p
848 2013-04-09 05:03:48 <Diablo-D3> PovAddict: no, the logic in bitcoind is what I said
849 2013-04-09 05:03:59 <GlitchNZ> what did you say Diablo?
850 2013-04-09 05:04:07 <resistor_> can someone explain the implications of the mail thread about people injecting "illegal content" into the blockchain, or the reddit thread?
851 2013-04-09 05:04:10 <Diablo-D3> GlitchNZ: 0.005 per kb.
852 2013-04-09 05:04:18 <GlitchNZ> oh, 005 per knb
853 2013-04-09 05:04:20 Haifisch has joined
854 2013-04-09 05:04:39 <Diablo-D3> resistor_: the implications is people who work for Satan can attack Bitcoin.
855 2013-04-09 05:04:55 <sivu> with the current price rise, transaction data is going to be the most expensive data after sms
856 2013-04-09 05:05:01 <GlitchNZ> so if I have a rew transaction as a hex - what is its wiresize? lengtth(hex)*4 bits?
857 2013-04-09 05:05:05 <Diablo-D3> resistor_: the problem is, you'd have to be able to get the data out, which is probably difficult
858 2013-04-09 05:05:16 <GlitchNZ> ori.e. hex legnth divided by 2?
859 2013-04-09 05:05:29 <Diablo-D3> GlitchNZ: look at the wiki for the exact format of the tx
860 2013-04-09 05:05:47 <Diablo-D3> GlitchNZ: what changes your size, btw, is the number of inputs
861 2013-04-09 05:05:57 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
862 2013-04-09 05:06:10 <resistor_> Diablo: only a few gigabyte chain currently, right? (sorry, new and trying to understand the protocol.)
863 2013-04-09 05:06:10 <Diablo-D3> a low number of inputs + single output would fit in 1 kb
864 2013-04-09 05:06:21 <Diablo-D3> resistor_: yeah, its only like 9gb
865 2013-04-09 05:06:48 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
866 2013-04-09 05:06:49 <PovAddict> 9gb?
867 2013-04-09 05:07:04 <resistor_> Dia: so what prevents one from encoding a 64k image in various "graffiti" blocks?
868 2013-04-09 05:07:09 <GlitchNZ> Diablo - wouldnt having many outputs also change the size?
869 2013-04-09 05:07:12 <PovAddict> my ~/.bitcoin is 7.8GB and it includes the leveldb indices (which is not data that gets transferred)
870 2013-04-09 05:07:16 <Diablo-D3> resistor_: nothing.
871 2013-04-09 05:07:17 <bVector> resistor_: nothing
872 2013-04-09 05:07:23 copumpkin has joined
873 2013-04-09 05:07:28 <bVector> you read the threads, thats is the whole point
874 2013-04-09 05:07:30 <Diablo-D3> PovAddict: you dont have the bdb chain?
875 2013-04-09 05:07:34 coolsa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
876 2013-04-09 05:07:36 <GlitchNZ> do I take the size of the transaction before or after signing it?
877 2013-04-09 05:07:48 <PovAddict> Diablo-D3: I run 0.8.1 so no
878 2013-04-09 05:07:53 <GlitchNZ> The reason I askd here is that the wiki is somewhat vague on details
879 2013-04-09 05:07:56 <Luke-Jr> GlitchNZ: after
880 2013-04-09 05:07:57 <resistor_> yeah, just wanted to make sure i understood the risks. Thank you Dia/bVec.
881 2013-04-09 05:07:58 <Diablo-D3> PovAddict: leveldb uses that one LZ4 competitor that google wrote
882 2013-04-09 05:08:15 <bVector> what risks?
883 2013-04-09 05:08:16 <bVector> lol
884 2013-04-09 05:08:28 <Diablo-D3> resistor_: it'd take someone who actually knew how to do it to do it
885 2013-04-09 05:08:34 <Diablo-D3> resistor_: you would also not get a continuous file
886 2013-04-09 05:08:47 <Diablo-D3> unless the file happened to fit inside of a single output
887 2013-04-09 05:09:11 <PovAddict> Diablo-D3: still, the leveldb files don't count for 'size of the blockchain', do they? :)
888 2013-04-09 05:10:02 <Diablo-D3> PovAddict: no.
889 2013-04-09 05:10:08 pacpac has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
890 2013-04-09 05:11:57 bolapara_ has joined
891 2013-04-09 05:12:01 <Diablo-D3> PovAddict: the bdb chain is uncompressed and about 9gb
892 2013-04-09 05:12:44 <GlitchNZ> hmmm adding tx fees to a transction is a bit recursive lol , an incrase in fee requirs an extra input that in turn requires an increase in fee
893 2013-04-09 05:13:23 ProfNeurus has quit (Quit: ProfNeurus)
894 2013-04-09 05:14:19 dvide has joined
895 2013-04-09 05:15:24 <PovAddict> there is one case where adding a tx fee makes the tx smaller
896 2013-04-09 05:16:07 resistor_ has left ("Leaving")
897 2013-04-09 05:16:24 <GlitchNZ> why is it whenever I think im close to finishing my proof of concept bitcoin has to through another spanner in the works :/
898 2013-04-09 05:17:11 <PovAddict> I don't know much about this but I was just reading the Transactions wiki page
899 2013-04-09 05:17:24 <aceat64> ok, using bitcoind's api, how the heck do I relabel an address
900 2013-04-09 05:17:44 <aceat64> when I use setaccount, it relabels the address, but then creates a new address with the old label
901 2013-04-09 05:17:47 <aceat64> very annoying
902 2013-04-09 05:18:02 <PovAddict> GlitchNZ: 25.001BTC input, 25BTC output to recipient and 0.001BTC output to yourself (change); vs 25.001BTC input, 25BTC output to recipient (the unaccounted 0.001 becomes the tx fee)
903 2013-04-09 05:18:10 <PovAddict> GlitchNZ: in that case adding a fee meant one less output
904 2013-04-09 05:18:22 <PovAddict> GlitchNZ: that's if I understand correctly how this stuff works :P
905 2013-04-09 05:23:28 grau has joined
906 2013-04-09 05:23:31 duckybsd has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
907 2013-04-09 05:23:36 <GlitchNZ> It also probably means that adding the fee meant the fee was no longer needed
908 2013-04-09 05:23:52 <PovAddict> it might
909 2013-04-09 05:24:11 <GlitchNZ> Im just going to use the formula here http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/1195/how-to-calculate-transaction-size-before-sending and keep recalculaiting until it fee is >= required
910 2013-04-09 05:24:31 <Luke-Jr> aceat64: are you sure?
911 2013-04-09 05:24:46 Darin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
912 2013-04-09 05:25:00 <aceat64> Luke-Jr: that's what it's doing with my bitcoind, I'll pastebin the output
913 2013-04-09 05:25:07 <PovAddict> version?
914 2013-04-09 05:25:24 Haifisch has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
915 2013-04-09 05:26:23 Diapolis has joined
916 2013-04-09 05:27:07 <PovAddict> hm
917 2013-04-09 05:27:15 <aceat64> http://pastebin.com/PxXC3rBh
918 2013-04-09 05:27:24 <aceat64> this is on 8.0.1
919 2013-04-09 05:27:38 <aceat64> err
920 2013-04-09 05:27:40 <aceat64> 0.8.1
921 2013-04-09 05:28:02 Haifisch has joined
922 2013-04-09 05:28:12 <Luke-Jr> odd
923 2013-04-09 05:28:26 <aceat64> notice that minf1rqE2jg4zZyAwZJZq9c2HfPuExcEX9 gets changed to "not test" but a new address is now called "test"
924 2013-04-09 05:28:26 bigtip has joined
925 2013-04-09 05:28:37 <aceat64> I hate bitcoind's account system
926 2013-04-09 05:28:41 <PovAddict> within a block, the *entire* content of the first input of the first transaction is ignored? or does it need to follow a rough format for framing purposes at least? (say a 'size' field)
927 2013-04-09 05:30:36 Haifisch has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
928 2013-04-09 05:30:55 Diapolis has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
929 2013-04-09 05:30:58 rdponticelli1 has joined
930 2013-04-09 05:32:09 <PovAddict> ah yes
931 2013-04-09 05:32:17 <PovAddict> the 'script' of the input is what you can mess with
932 2013-04-09 05:33:19 <aceat64> Luke-Jr: apparently this is on purpose, as accounts are never deleted
933 2013-04-09 05:33:30 someonesomewhere has quit (Quit: someonesomewhere)
934 2013-04-09 05:35:47 <aceat64> somehow bitcoin-qt does it though
935 2013-04-09 05:36:15 <aceat64> when I remove a label from an receive address, it doesn't create a new address with the old label
936 2013-04-09 05:37:07 <PovAddict> well bitcoin-qt doesn't use the JSON API
937 2013-04-09 05:37:54 <aceat64> PovAddict: I know, it just seems odd that bitcoin-qt is cool with "deleting" accounts, but doing so via the API is not allowed
938 2013-04-09 05:38:03 <Luke-Jr> Bitcoin-Qt and bitcoind labels are completely different things
939 2013-04-09 05:38:36 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
940 2013-04-09 05:39:02 <aceat64> Luke-Jr: then why do my labels for receive addresses in bitcoin-qt show as accounts in the API? There is some overlap, but it's not entirely clear what.
941 2013-04-09 05:39:29 <Luke-Jr> aceat64: they do? pretty sure mine don't O.o
942 2013-04-09 05:39:57 <aceat64> run bitcoin-qt with -server and try it
943 2013-04-09 05:40:15 <aceat64> listaccounts shows every single receive label for me
944 2013-04-09 05:40:38 <aceat64> 0.8.1 from the ubuntu PPA
945 2013-04-09 05:41:02 <aceat64> my wallet is probably super old though, not sure if that makes a difference
946 2013-04-09 05:41:04 <Luke-Jr> hmm, interesting
947 2013-04-09 05:41:08 <Luke-Jr> never noticed that
948 2013-04-09 05:41:19 stretchwarren has joined
949 2013-04-09 05:41:38 <aceat64> I'm trying to write a PHP-based front end for bitcoind so people can run their own "cloud" wallets
950 2013-04-09 05:41:55 <aceat64> but labels/accounts are making this difficult
951 2013-04-09 05:42:06 <aceat64> I'll probably just have to use a database to track what labels the user sets
952 2013-04-09 05:42:24 <aceat64> which sucks, because I was trying to do it without any database
953 2013-04-09 05:43:33 PovAddict has left ("Konversation terminated!")
954 2013-04-09 05:43:36 saulimus has joined
955 2013-04-09 05:44:10 <Scrat> aceat64: this isn't about labels, you have to track important state such as confirmation status
956 2013-04-09 05:44:30 PhantomSpark has joined
957 2013-04-09 05:44:47 <Scrat> so that requests to the "payment api" are atomic for each tx
958 2013-04-09 05:45:06 <Scrat> gotta use a db, no way around it
959 2013-04-09 05:45:33 <aceat64> Scrat: I know, I just wish setaccount didn't create new addresses to keep accounts around
960 2013-04-09 05:45:51 <Scrat> and while you're at it, store the address to userid tuple
961 2013-04-09 05:45:57 <Scrat> don't use bitcoind accounts for something like that
962 2013-04-09 05:46:34 <aceat64> I plan on keeping this app pretty simple, not going to bother with showing how much was received per address/account
963 2013-04-09 05:46:57 <aceat64> basically I'm trying to mimic bitcoin-qt in a web-based frontend
964 2013-04-09 05:47:03 <Scrat> requiring an SQL server is not unreasonable
965 2013-04-09 05:47:40 <Scrat> install scripts can be a bitch, yes
966 2013-04-09 05:48:45 kicek has joined
967 2013-04-09 05:49:16 <Scrat> (btw discussion like this should be done over at #bitcoin-tech)
968 2013-04-09 05:49:54 <aceat64> thin clients don't count? =P
969 2013-04-09 05:51:30 <Scrat> maybe they do
970 2013-04-09 05:51:40 mouseofthesteppe has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
971 2013-04-09 05:51:51 <Scrat> in any case bitcoin-qt has direct access to the memory and database which you dont get with the RPC api
972 2013-04-09 05:52:00 richweskus has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
973 2013-04-09 05:52:18 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
974 2013-04-09 05:52:36 <aceat64> yup, 2nd class citizen
975 2013-04-09 05:52:39 richweskus has joined
976 2013-04-09 05:52:58 sl1982 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
977 2013-04-09 05:53:35 PhantomSpark has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
978 2013-04-09 05:53:43 PhantomSpark has joined
979 2013-04-09 05:54:08 _pr has quit (Quit: Leaving)
980 2013-04-09 05:55:00 sl1982 has joined
981 2013-04-09 05:57:06 _pr has joined
982 2013-04-09 05:57:06 _pr has quit (Changing host)
983 2013-04-09 05:57:06 _pr has joined
984 2013-04-09 05:58:59 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
985 2013-04-09 06:00:50 TradeFortress has joined
986 2013-04-09 06:01:15 Brett__ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
987 2013-04-09 06:03:34 EvilPete has joined
988 2013-04-09 06:04:08 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
989 2013-04-09 06:04:25 <muhoo> ok i give up. is there a list of #bitcoin-foo channels somehwere, maybe on the wiki?
990 2013-04-09 06:06:18 JZavala has joined
991 2013-04-09 06:07:39 <aceat64> muhoo: /list -re #bitcoin*
992 2013-04-09 06:07:40 <muhoo> heh, nevermind /list -YES did me
993 2013-04-09 06:07:47 <aceat64> at least in my client that lists them
994 2013-04-09 06:07:55 n5 has joined
995 2013-04-09 06:09:03 <muhoo> that's funny, i'd love to know which anarchist created the #bitcoin-police channel :-)
996 2013-04-09 06:09:32 cultav1x has joined
997 2013-04-09 06:16:23 cultav1x has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
998 2013-04-09 06:17:36 twobitcoins_ has joined
999 2013-04-09 06:17:46 fanquake has joined
1000 2013-04-09 06:19:42 <Luke-Jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/bestblocks.html is looking scary :x
1001 2013-04-09 06:21:44 twobitcoins__ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1002 2013-04-09 06:25:53 meefozio has quit ()
1003 2013-04-09 06:28:41 <warren> Luke-Jr: the red nodes still respond on the network?
1004 2013-04-09 06:28:56 <Luke-Jr> yes
1005 2013-04-09 06:29:05 <Luke-Jr> also, the colours are just popularity-based
1006 2013-04-09 06:29:07 <warren> you have views of this over time?
1007 2013-04-09 06:29:21 <Luke-Jr> not really - I have the raw data over time, but not graphs
1008 2013-04-09 06:29:58 saulimus has joined
1009 2013-04-09 06:30:07 <warren> how the heck can this happen? those nodes are constantly trying to keep but can't?
1010 2013-04-09 06:30:21 <warren> keep up
1011 2013-04-09 06:30:44 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
1012 2013-04-09 06:30:45 <Luke-Jr> dunno
1013 2013-04-09 06:31:08 RoboTeddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1014 2013-04-09 06:34:24 <warren> gmaxwell: I'm liking your full node idea a lot more now.
1015 2013-04-09 06:35:52 <feral> theres only 3110 legit nodes?
1016 2013-04-09 06:36:30 <muhoo> that sounds about right
1017 2013-04-09 06:36:45 Brizzo has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
1018 2013-04-09 06:36:52 <Luke-Jr> feral: how do you figure?
1019 2013-04-09 06:36:58 <feral> your chart?
1020 2013-04-09 06:36:58 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1021 2013-04-09 06:37:13 <warren> It might not be that bad? There could be a lot of nodes that don't listen but act as relays just fine.
1022 2013-04-09 06:37:14 <Luke-Jr> maybe you caught it when I checked just the 7d
1023 2013-04-09 06:37:18 <Luke-Jr> reload
1024 2013-04-09 06:37:55 <Luke-Jr> or, what do you mean by "legit"
1025 2013-04-09 06:38:07 <feral> current with the blockchain
1026 2013-04-09 06:38:19 <feral> im assuming thats what your chart is showing
1027 2013-04-09 06:38:33 <Luke-Jr> ah, maybe then
1028 2013-04-09 06:38:43 <Luke-Jr> pretty sure it didn't look this bad months ago
1029 2013-04-09 06:39:18 fishfishclone has quit (Quit: Bye!)
1030 2013-04-09 06:39:23 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
1031 2013-04-09 06:41:03 stretchwarren has joined
1032 2013-04-09 06:41:25 TheButterZone has joined
1033 2013-04-09 06:41:31 <TheButterZone> should i be concerned 38.108.185.245 attempted to login to my private-key-less http://blockchain.info/Â wallet?
1034 2013-04-09 06:41:53 zrad has joined
1035 2013-04-09 06:42:43 <muhoo> TheButterZone: that's a tor node?
1036 2013-04-09 06:43:05 Belxjander has joined
1037 2013-04-09 06:43:23 GlitchNZ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1038 2013-04-09 06:43:37 <TheButterZone> oh nvm, and i meant to ask in #bitcoin, where did -dev come from
1039 2013-04-09 06:43:39 <TheButterZone> lol
1040 2013-04-09 06:43:41 Belxjander has quit (Client Quit)
1041 2013-04-09 06:43:55 <TheButterZone> ta
1042 2013-04-09 06:43:58 TheButterZone has left ()
1043 2013-04-09 06:44:11 <owowo> If your wallet is not on your hdd you should definitely be worried :P
1044 2013-04-09 06:46:03 Ferroh has joined
1045 2013-04-09 06:46:07 whiterabbit has joined
1046 2013-04-09 06:46:14 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1047 2013-04-09 06:46:20 whiterabbit is now known as wrabbit
1048 2013-04-09 06:51:09 Ashaman has joined
1049 2013-04-09 06:54:04 cultav1x has joined
1050 2013-04-09 06:55:38 DaQatz has joined
1051 2013-04-09 06:56:25 Graet_elsewhere is now known as Graet
1052 2013-04-09 06:56:59 samholmes has joined
1053 2013-04-09 06:57:10 <samholmes> I need help with bitcoin-qt, I get this error "System error: CDB() : can't open database file wallet.dat, error -30974"
1054 2013-04-09 06:57:13 <samholmes> And it crashes
1055 2013-04-09 06:57:24 <samholmes> I have 90 somedays of the block chain to download
1056 2013-04-09 06:57:36 <samholmes> But, can't do so cause it broke.
1057 2013-04-09 06:58:55 <gwillen> the user new299 [~new@41j.com] in #bitcoin is wondering why he's banned here
1058 2013-04-09 06:58:59 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1059 2013-04-09 06:58:59 <gwillen> he claims he's never been here.
1060 2013-04-09 06:59:10 <gwillen> I can't see the banlist; can someone inspect it?
1061 2013-04-09 06:59:14 twobitcoins_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1062 2013-04-09 06:59:38 FredEE has joined
1063 2013-04-09 06:59:41 twobitcoins_ has joined
1064 2013-04-09 06:59:41 owowo has quit (Quit: sayonara)
1065 2013-04-09 06:59:48 <Luke-Jr> gwillen: best I can tell, he's not
1066 2013-04-09 06:59:54 <gwillen> hmm
1067 2013-04-09 07:01:22 <gwillen> Luke-Jr: he reports -> <new299> I just get: Cannot join to channel #bitcoin-dev (You are banned)
1068 2013-04-09 07:01:42 <Scrat> *!*@*95.211.*
1069 2013-04-09 07:01:44 <Scrat> remove that one
1070 2013-04-09 07:02:09 <gwillen> Scrat: how are you seeing the banlist? My client won't show it to me.
1071 2013-04-09 07:02:13 ligar has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1072 2013-04-09 07:02:23 <SomeoneWeird> gwillen, /mode +b #bitcoin-dev
1073 2013-04-09 07:02:33 <SomeoneWeird> er, /mode #bitcoin-dev +b
1074 2013-04-09 07:02:41 <gwillen> oh
1075 2013-04-09 07:02:54 <gwillen> I was typing it the way you suggested the first time, i.e. backwards.
1076 2013-04-09 07:02:55 <gwillen> thanks :-)
1077 2013-04-09 07:02:57 <SomeoneWeird> what needs to be removed?
1078 2013-04-09 07:03:05 <Luke-Jr> Scrat: aha, does the banlist do DNS lookups?
1079 2013-04-09 07:03:05 <gwillen> 23:32:01 < Scrat> *!*@*95.211.*
1080 2013-04-09 07:03:15 <gwillen> Luke-Jr: yeah
1081 2013-04-09 07:03:26 <gwillen> it will match either by IP or by domain I believe
1082 2013-04-09 07:03:28 <SomeoneWeird> why does it need to be removed? :)
1083 2013-04-09 07:03:39 <gwillen> well
1084 2013-04-09 07:03:44 <gwillen> I don't know for sure that it does
1085 2013-04-09 07:03:52 <gwillen> but a user is confused as to why he's banned, and that entry is catching him
1086 2013-04-09 07:03:55 <gwillen> and it's a HUGE range
1087 2013-04-09 07:03:57 ligar has joined
1088 2013-04-09 07:04:00 <gwillen> so it's probably not actually aimed at him
1089 2013-04-09 07:04:19 d4de has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1090 2013-04-09 07:04:42 safra has joined
1091 2013-04-09 07:04:47 <gwillen> it's not clear if it was unintended, or if someone really meant to ban an entire /16
1092 2013-04-09 07:04:48 <SomeoneWeird> talk to gmaxwell, he set the ban
1093 2013-04-09 07:05:00 <gwillen> gmaxwell: do you know why a ban was set on a whole /16?
1094 2013-04-09 07:05:06 Belxjander has joined
1095 2013-04-09 07:05:08 <SomeoneWeird> i'd undo it but bans are set for a reason :)
1096 2013-04-09 07:05:13 <gwillen> SomeoneWeird: understood, thanks
1097 2013-04-09 07:05:18 <gwillen> I suspect it may be a typo or something
1098 2013-04-09 07:05:19 <gwillen> but we'll see
1099 2013-04-09 07:06:00 Ashaman_ has joined
1100 2013-04-09 07:06:23 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1101 2013-04-09 07:07:56 <azizLIGHTS> what timezone does block explore report in
1102 2013-04-09 07:09:08 d4de has joined
1103 2013-04-09 07:10:17 MobPhone has joined
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1108 2013-04-09 07:20:42 <samholmes> My money is stuck. Could someone please help me out. :(
1109 2013-04-09 07:20:45 <samholmes> "System error: CDB() : can't open database file wallet.dat, error -30974"
1110 2013-04-09 07:21:24 <JohnSmith333> Do you have a backup?
1111 2013-04-09 07:22:15 normanrichards has quit ()
1112 2013-04-09 07:22:30 <TradeFortress> samholmes, -salvagewallet
1113 2013-04-09 07:22:41 brson has quit (Quit: leaving)
1114 2013-04-09 07:22:43 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1115 2013-04-09 07:24:05 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1116 2013-04-09 07:24:07 nus-- has joined
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1118 2013-04-09 07:25:03 <samholmes> TradeFortress: what?
1119 2013-04-09 07:25:12 <samholmes> JohnSmith333: My wallet was copied from my older computer
1120 2013-04-09 07:25:26 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1121 2013-04-09 07:25:41 <TradeFortress> command line
1122 2013-04-09 07:25:50 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Sayonara)
1123 2013-04-09 07:25:54 <TradeFortress> use the salvagewallet option
1124 2013-04-09 07:28:07 nus- has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1125 2013-04-09 07:30:17 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1128 2013-04-09 07:32:31 ligar has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1129 2013-04-09 07:32:53 ligar has joined
1130 2013-04-09 07:33:06 <JohnSmith333> Is there a hardcoded transaction fee? If I wanted to send .0001 bitcoins, could I do it without paying anything?
1131 2013-04-09 07:33:28 skeledrew has joined
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1144 2013-04-09 07:45:54 <gwillen> JohnSmith333: you can always make a no-fee transaction, but there are no guarantees that it will ever get through
1145 2013-04-09 07:47:37 melvster has joined
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1154 2013-04-09 08:00:19 <Luke-Jr> there, wrote vmbuilder package for Gentoo and got gitian working natively :p
1155 2013-04-09 08:00:24 duckybsd has joined
1156 2013-04-09 08:00:34 <Luke-Jr> now I can do builds much faster
1157 2013-04-09 08:03:48 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
1158 2013-04-09 08:04:13 <samholmes> TradeFortress: what does it do?
1159 2013-04-09 08:06:06 <warren> Luke-Jr: I'm interested in seeing that, I can redo it for Fedora.
1160 2013-04-09 08:06:46 <Luke-Jr> warren: it's in my personal gentoo overlay ('luke-jr')
1161 2013-04-09 08:07:10 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1162 2013-04-09 08:07:33 Namworld has joined
1163 2013-04-09 08:07:37 rzoom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1164 2013-04-09 08:07:44 <Luke-Jr> http://scm.dashjr.org/websvn/filedetails.php?repname=portage-overlay-luke-jr&path=%2Ftrunk%2Fapp-emulation%2Fvmbuilder%2Fvmbuilder-0.12.4.481-r1.ebuild
1165 2013-04-09 08:07:53 <Luke-Jr> pretty straightforward
1166 2013-04-09 08:10:11 panzerfaust is now known as panzer
1167 2013-04-09 08:11:25 ralphtheninja has joined
1168 2013-04-09 08:12:44 RoboTeddy has joined
1169 2013-04-09 08:14:10 <TradeFortress> samholmes, tries to restore your wallet.\
1170 2013-04-09 08:15:20 t7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1171 2013-04-09 08:15:43 t7 has joined
1172 2013-04-09 08:16:28 grau has joined
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1174 2013-04-09 08:17:20 <samholmes> TradeFortress: How do I use the commandline?
1175 2013-04-09 08:17:40 <TradeFortress> windows or unix?
1176 2013-04-09 08:17:42 <samholmes> I click the bitcoin-qt icon on launchpad
1177 2013-04-09 08:17:48 <samholmes> unix
1178 2013-04-09 08:17:49 <samholmes> mac
1179 2013-04-09 08:17:52 <samholmes> terminal
1180 2013-04-09 08:17:54 <TradeFortress> terminal, yes
1181 2013-04-09 08:18:03 <TradeFortress> cd to your bitcoin-qt directory
1182 2013-04-09 08:18:07 <samholmes> k
1183 2013-04-09 08:18:10 <TradeFortress> ./bitcoin-qt -salvagewallet
1184 2013-04-09 08:18:34 grau has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1185 2013-04-09 08:18:39 <samholmes> bitcoin.app package?
1186 2013-04-09 08:18:57 <TradeFortress> Eh, is it like that on Mac?
1187 2013-04-09 08:19:09 <TradeFortress> How much BTC have you got it on there?
1188 2013-04-09 08:19:19 <samholmes> TradeFortress: Yeah, /Applications/Bitcoin-qt.app/Contents/...
1189 2013-04-09 08:19:29 <samholmes> TradeFortress: A few million dollars worth
1190 2013-04-09 08:19:34 <TradeFortress> ;p
1191 2013-04-09 08:19:36 <samholmes> TradeFortress: jk
1192 2013-04-09 08:19:46 <samholmes> like a few mBTC
1193 2013-04-09 08:19:48 <TradeFortress> LOL
1194 2013-04-09 08:19:51 <samholmes> haha
1195 2013-04-09 08:19:55 <samholmes> It's lolable
1196 2013-04-09 08:20:10 <samholmes> But, hey, it could be worth millions in the future
1197 2013-04-09 08:20:32 <samholmes> so how do i do this?
1198 2013-04-09 08:20:43 <TradeFortress> I'm not sure how on Mac.
1199 2013-04-09 08:21:06 <samholmes> Run the bitcoin client with salvagewallet
1200 2013-04-09 08:21:30 <samholmes> Found it
1201 2013-04-09 08:21:43 grau has joined
1202 2013-04-09 08:21:57 <TradeFortress> cool
1203 2013-04-09 08:21:58 db90h- has joined
1204 2013-04-09 08:22:09 <samholmes> how did it get corrupt ya think?
1205 2013-04-09 08:22:44 grau has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1206 2013-04-09 08:22:49 <TradeFortress> have you done anything to it?
1207 2013-04-09 08:24:18 keystroke has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1208 2013-04-09 08:25:14 <samholmes> Nop
1209 2013-04-09 08:25:16 <samholmes> e
1210 2013-04-09 08:25:32 <samholmes> I've just been opening the client every now and then to get the blockchain up to date
1211 2013-04-09 08:25:41 pecket has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1212 2013-04-09 08:25:44 <samholmes> but it's been taking days to get the blockchain
1213 2013-04-09 08:26:03 knotwork has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
1214 2013-04-09 08:26:20 <samholmes> and making my fan spin like a fucking drunken monk on gumpy cat skittles
1215 2013-04-09 08:28:18 knotwork has joined
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1217 2013-04-09 08:28:54 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1218 2013-04-09 08:30:14 <samholmes> Why does bitcoin make my fan go wild?
1219 2013-04-09 08:30:46 debiantoruser has joined
1220 2013-04-09 08:31:57 <_dr> because blockchain verification is quite cpu intensive
1221 2013-04-09 08:32:06 <_dr> especially now, that it uses all available cores per default
1222 2013-04-09 08:33:09 <samholmes> I thought verification is cheap, and solving was expensive?
1223 2013-04-09 08:33:18 <_dr> samholmes: for one block, yes
1224 2013-04-09 08:33:34 <_dr> however, the blockchain contails all blocks ever mined
1225 2013-04-09 08:33:45 <samholmes> So I have 1000s of blocks to verify?
1226 2013-04-09 08:33:54 <samholmes> I'm 90 days behind
1227 2013-04-09 08:33:58 <_dr> samholmes: more like 230428
1228 2013-04-09 08:34:11 <samholmes> I have some blocks though
1229 2013-04-09 08:34:19 <samholmes> so I'm not verifying all of them
1230 2013-04-09 08:34:31 <_dr> samholmes: once the initial sync is complete, you'll start from where you left off the next time you open the client
1231 2013-04-09 08:34:43 <samholmes> Yeah
1232 2013-04-09 08:35:14 Davincij15 has joined
1233 2013-04-09 08:35:23 <_dr> samholmes: they're not all downloaded in the first place and then verified. it's more like download some, verify, download some more, verify some more
1234 2013-04-09 08:35:53 Diablo-D3 has quit (Quit: do coders dream of sheep()?)
1235 2013-04-09 08:36:00 OPrime has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1237 2013-04-09 08:36:22 <samholmes> right
1238 2013-04-09 08:36:41 <samholmes> but why does this have to make my mac melt?
1239 2013-04-09 08:36:54 OPrime has joined
1240 2013-04-09 08:37:15 <_dr> yeah, that's bad :)
1241 2013-04-09 08:37:58 <_dr> i'm sure there is a way to only use one core. that should limit the heat. unfortunately i don't know how you do that. but i'm sure someone here will know
1242 2013-04-09 08:40:17 <_dr> if the client doesn't have an option yet, it should definitely get one
1243 2013-04-09 08:43:21 cultav1x has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1244 2013-04-09 08:43:49 <sensorii> cpulimit can help limit the heat. https://github.com/opsengine/cpulimit I've used it on linux, looks like it'll work on OSX also
1245 2013-04-09 08:44:42 <_dr> osx also has nice(1)
1246 2013-04-09 08:46:57 Guest64518 has joined
1247 2013-04-09 08:47:16 <fanquake> _dr use -par to set how many verification threads you want to use
1248 2013-04-09 08:48:03 <_dr> there you go samholmes
1249 2013-04-09 08:48:19 cultav1x has joined
1250 2013-04-09 08:48:51 <samholmes> what's the (1) mean?
1251 2013-04-09 08:49:04 Davincij15 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1252 2013-04-09 08:49:14 <robbak> It's a unixism, samholmes
1253 2013-04-09 08:49:23 <samholmes> I know, I've seen it
1254 2013-04-09 08:49:26 <samholmes> just want to know what it means
1255 2013-04-09 08:49:41 <robbak> samholmes: it means that there is a man page in section 1 for that function
1256 2013-04-09 08:50:01 <_dr> it referes to the section of the manpages. section 1 referes to binaries and shell commands
1257 2013-04-09 08:50:17 <fanquake> samholmes are you using Qt ?
1258 2013-04-09 08:50:21 <robbak> It's put there to remind you that we are talking about a program for the comand line, not a function to use in programming or a config file.
1259 2013-04-09 08:50:27 <samholmes> fanquake: yes
1260 2013-04-09 08:50:46 <fanquake> To choose the number of verification threads open Qt using
1261 2013-04-09 08:50:51 <fanquake> open Bitcoin-Qt.app --args --par=
1262 2013-04-09 08:51:02 <fanquake> and set par to however many threads you want
1263 2013-04-09 08:52:19 <robbak> For instance printf(3) would refer to the unix function.
1264 2013-04-09 08:52:25 <_dr> fanquake: oh, you can do that :) I always ran /Applications/bla.app/resoures/whatevercypticpathtobin. thanks!
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1343 2013-04-09 10:24:12 <robbak> Is there any reason why -lboost_chrono isn't being referenced for unix?
1344 2013-04-09 10:24:59 <robbak> It is needed if boost 1.5+ is being used.
1345 2013-04-09 10:25:00 Ramokk has joined
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1347 2013-04-09 10:27:28 <fanquake> robbak likehttps://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2414
1348 2013-04-09 10:27:33 <fanquake> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2414
1349 2013-04-09 10:28:05 <fanquake> You might want to mention that
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1354 2013-04-09 10:31:43 <robbak> My system is currently at boost 1.52, fanquake. I have found that I need to add -lboost_chrono to the qt .pro file and makefile.unix
1355 2013-04-09 10:32:52 <robbak> So, bitcoin 1.53 doesn't need it to be added. What boost version is being used mostly?
1356 2013-04-09 10:33:32 iceblue has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1357 2013-04-09 10:33:51 <tonikt> Hi there. Can anyone please give me some hint on how to recover Y from the compressed public key?
1358 2013-04-09 10:33:57 <tonikt> i.e. from 0290333c838c7bffbe99182626f60a08cad83217ea073e0ee8364cb9923fed4c0f
1359 2013-04-09 10:34:13 <tonikt> 90333c838c7bffbe99182626f60a08cad83217ea073e0ee8364cb9923fed4c0f - this is X, right?
1360 2013-04-09 10:34:29 twobitcoins has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1361 2013-04-09 10:34:31 <fanquake> rob bak looks like 1.50.0 on unix atm
1362 2013-04-09 10:37:33 <robbak> fanquake: Hmm. Well, I'll test this and make a pull request for it.
1363 2013-04-09 10:37:38 PartTimeLegend has joined
1364 2013-04-09 10:37:51 <robbak> Let pulltester check it against linux.
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1366 2013-04-09 10:38:36 <PartTimeLegend> Running the tests I'm getting /home/me/build/bitcoin/src/db.h:14:20: fatal error: db_cxx.h: No such file or directory
1367 2013-04-09 10:38:37 <PartTimeLegend> compilation terminated. Is the test bugged or am I? The file sure enough doesn't exist in the repo.
1368 2013-04-09 10:38:41 i2pRelay has joined
1369 2013-04-09 10:39:14 <robbak> I had that issue early on. What platform, and how are you building?
1370 2013-04-09 10:39:35 execut3 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1371 2013-04-09 10:41:29 lodse has joined
1372 2013-04-09 10:41:36 <robbak> PartTimeLegend - that file should be on your system. You may have to install bdb. Again, what platform?
1373 2013-04-09 10:41:54 <PartTimeLegend> Ubuntu 13.04 sudo apt-get install libqt4-* && sudo apt-get install libboost-test-dev && cd src; make -f makefile.unix test
1374 2013-04-09 10:42:29 <sipa> you need libdb4.8++-dev
1375 2013-04-09 10:42:47 <sipa> newer ubuntus don't have that anynkre
1376 2013-04-09 10:42:59 <alaricsp> Has anyone ever managed to compile bitcoind on NetBSD?
1377 2013-04-09 10:43:09 <sipa> you can use 5.1 but that means your wallet becomes backward incompatible
1378 2013-04-09 10:43:11 <alaricsp> I've tried and failed, alas
1379 2013-04-09 10:43:59 <robbak> alaricsp: I look after the port on FreeBSD. It works: I'm currently fixing something for current git.
1380 2013-04-09 10:44:09 <alaricsp> sipa: I wish wallet.dat wasn't a BDB file... I've seen BDB trash files too often, and if it were plain text it would be easier to merge wallets, add privkeys, extract privkeys, etc
1381 2013-04-09 10:44:30 <alaricsp> robbak: I saw some #ifdef FreeBSDs in the code! I might try telling my system it's FreeBSD really and seeing what happens!
1382 2013-04-09 10:44:38 <sipa> alaricsp: i share your hate gor bdb, the plan is to move away from it
1383 2013-04-09 10:44:46 * alaricsp high fives robbak. Go team BSD!
1384 2013-04-09 10:45:02 <sipa> alaricsp: though to an own custom append-only file format
1385 2013-04-09 10:45:11 <alaricsp> sipa: I saw that everything else is now in leveldb, but I presume wallet.dat is kept that way for compatability
1386 2013-04-09 10:45:14 <robbak> alaricsp: There are a few - mostly copying things pulled out of OSX code.
1387 2013-04-09 10:45:16 <sipa> alaricsp: and import/export to a human readable one
1388 2013-04-09 10:45:23 <alaricsp> sipa: Append-only is good
1389 2013-04-09 10:45:31 <sipa> alaricsp: lelveldb isn't really appropriate for the wallet
1390 2013-04-09 10:45:59 <sipa> it's overkill, needs a full directory instead of just a file, and isnloaded into memory anyway
1391 2013-04-09 10:46:01 <alaricsp> Indeed
1392 2013-04-09 10:46:05 <PartTimeLegend> sudo apt-get install libdb4.8++-dev returns Package 'libdb4.8++-dev' has no installation candidate
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1396 2013-04-09 10:46:25 <sipa> PartTimeLegend: read what i said
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1413 2013-04-09 10:54:50 <PartTimeLegend> I got libdb4.8-dev installed. I'm still getting the error.
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1418 2013-04-09 10:59:01 <robbak> Does anybody have a testnet instance running that I could share some testnet coins with?
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1421 2013-04-09 10:59:49 <Habbie> robbak, you can have my testnet wallet.dat
1422 2013-04-09 11:00:06 <Habbie> robbak, i think there's a couple hundred testnet coins in it
1423 2013-04-09 11:00:37 <robbak> NO, I've got some of them. I'd just like to send and receive some.
1424 2013-04-09 11:00:47 <robbak> I've traded with my own vm a few times.
1425 2013-04-09 11:01:01 <Habbie> ah
1426 2013-04-09 11:01:09 <Habbie> well my VM is out of diskspace so i can't run the client ;)
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1434 2013-04-09 11:03:54 <sipa> PartTimeLegend: read better
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1444 2013-04-09 11:14:29 <GlitchNZ> lol bitcoinity: http://bitcoinity.org/markets
1445 2013-04-09 11:14:46 shesek has joined
1446 2013-04-09 11:14:47 <GlitchNZ> started playing http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rkRIbUT6u7Q when it hit $200
1447 2013-04-09 11:14:57 <GlitchNZ> wops wrong chan
1448 2013-04-09 11:16:41 [Author] has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
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1464 2013-04-09 11:32:29 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
1465 2013-04-09 11:32:30 <gribble> 230449
1466 2013-04-09 11:32:50 <unas> does anyone know who did the bitcoin-qt splashscreen wallet image?
1467 2013-04-09 11:33:01 <unas> i try to create a new one
1468 2013-04-09 11:33:21 <unas> in the src there is just a JPG version (no SVG, PSD, etc.)
1469 2013-04-09 11:33:46 <sipa> unas: feel free to contribute a new image
1470 2013-04-09 11:34:03 <fanquake> unas ,its probably in here https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/assets-attribution.txt
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1474 2013-04-09 11:35:54 <unas> yes. check the assets attribution text, but it just sais: Crobbo (forum)
1475 2013-04-09 11:36:10 <unas> and the bitcointalk link does not help? wonder if he's here in the IRC
1476 2013-04-09 11:36:21 <unas> but it seams like that the JPG is the only thing we have...
1477 2013-04-09 11:36:38 <unas> okay. let me create a new one from the scratch.. :)
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1531 2013-04-09 12:31:03 <HM> argh
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1538 2013-04-09 12:43:13 <unas> any mac users on 10.7 or below to test some things?
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1543 2013-04-09 12:47:54 <fanquake> unas, I've got a machine running 10.7.5
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1549 2013-04-09 12:50:07 <Jonathan_L> etotheipi__: After I imported a key in Bitcoin-Qt using it's debug options (as the Wiki says I can), Armory crashed and Bitcoin-Qt froze. I had to reindex the blockchain in Bitcoin-Qt, now it works fine. Now Armory still is crashing as soon as I bring it online.
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1554 2013-04-09 12:55:23 <etotheipi__> ack
1555 2013-04-09 12:55:31 <etotheipi__> Jonathan_L: can you email me a log file?
1556 2013-04-09 12:55:36 <etotheipi__> what OS are you in?
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1572 2013-04-09 13:10:32 <unas> fanquake, nice? do you can build from the source (Qt?!) .. or can i send you a compiled .App to test some things?
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1575 2013-04-09 13:12:22 <Jonathan_L> etotheipi__: Win7 x64
1576 2013-04-09 13:13:10 <runeks> Is it expected that private keys for change addresses can't be dumped with dumpprivkey?
1577 2013-04-09 13:13:30 <Jonathan_L> etotheipi__: I can email you a log. I think I deleted the old log when it was working, was trying to get Armory to work. IDK, but that seems to have made it not instantly crash but instead start offline and then crash if I brough it online
1578 2013-04-09 13:13:32 Painke has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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1580 2013-04-09 13:14:40 <Jonathan_L> No, got the log in Trash, restoring it now
1581 2013-04-09 13:15:09 <etotheipi__> Jonathan_L: try starting in offline mode, and then go to "Help"->"Revert All Settings"
1582 2013-04-09 13:15:19 <etotheipi__> maybe you have a bad setting somehow
1583 2013-04-09 13:15:34 <Jonathan_L> I tried deleting the settings file
1584 2013-04-09 13:15:36 <Jonathan_L> didn't help
1585 2013-04-09 13:15:50 <Jonathan_L> Could it be that it crashed from reading the Bitcoin wallet keys? Maybe?
1586 2013-04-09 13:15:54 <etotheipi__> Jonathan_L: it crashes immediately after you try to go online?
1587 2013-04-09 13:15:58 <Jonathan_L> Yes.
1588 2013-04-09 13:16:01 <etotheipi__> or when it's done scanning?
1589 2013-04-09 13:16:04 nomailing has left ()
1590 2013-04-09 13:16:09 <Jonathan_L> It started when when scanning the blockchain
1591 2013-04-09 13:16:17 <Jonathan_L> as I click "go online"
1592 2013-04-09 13:16:30 <etotheipi__> Jonathan_L: I've seen that happen with corrupt blockchain files before
1593 2013-04-09 13:16:37 <etotheipi__> I'm not sure what else would cause it
1594 2013-04-09 13:16:46 <Jonathan_L> I did a reindex in Bitcoin-Qt
1595 2013-04-09 13:16:54 <etotheipi__> but let me look at the log file first
1596 2013-04-09 13:16:56 <Jonathan_L> Could it still be corrupt?
1597 2013-04-09 13:17:05 <Jonathan_L> Bitcoin-Qt works...
1598 2013-04-09 13:17:09 <Jonathan_L> what's your email?
1599 2013-04-09 13:17:24 <Jonathan_L> I'll make it crash again now so you have a few different log files to look at
1600 2013-04-09 13:17:31 Davincij15 has joined
1601 2013-04-09 13:17:31 <etotheipi__> I'm still trying to find out if there's a way for the blockfiles to be valid for Bitcoin-Qt but with unexpected/crashing format for Armory
1602 2013-04-09 13:17:46 <etotheipi__> If you did a reindex, it's probably not corrupt
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1604 2013-04-09 13:18:07 <Jonathan_L> Can it be in how it tracks the balance?
1605 2013-04-09 13:18:31 <Jonathan_L> Because the key I imported has some coins to it, and that was when the crash happened
1606 2013-04-09 13:19:01 <etotheipi__> Jonathan_L: no, Armory starts from a completely blank slate every time
1607 2013-04-09 13:19:03 <Jonathan_L> Bitcoin-Qt also froze as I said, but it saved the wallet file just ok
1608 2013-04-09 13:19:06 <Jonathan_L> *I think*
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1610 2013-04-09 13:19:17 <etotheipi__> it only scans the blockchain for its own addresses
1611 2013-04-09 13:19:46 <etotheipi__> one of the benefits of this is that any bad state it gets into (via bugs), should be forgotten between loads
1612 2013-04-09 13:19:52 <Jonathan_L> How does Bitcoin-Qt handle the blockchain when it comes to it's own keys? Does it store the blockchain "raw" or not?
1613 2013-04-09 13:19:58 <etotheipi__> at the expense of making the user wait
1614 2013-04-09 13:20:15 <etotheipi__> the blocks/blk*.dat files hold the raw blockchain
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1616 2013-04-09 13:20:26 <etotheipi__> then the index contains ... and index... of that data
1617 2013-04-09 13:20:31 <etotheipi__> Armory reads only the raw blockchain files
1618 2013-04-09 13:20:48 <Jonathan_L> AFAIK I did a full redownload of the blockchain
1619 2013-04-09 13:21:05 <Jonathan_L> I used both the Bitcoin command line arguments for restoring it
1620 2013-04-09 13:22:34 <Jonathan_L> I did a -rescan and then a -reindex
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1623 2013-04-09 13:23:02 <etotheipi__> Jonathan_L: it still shouldn't make a difference to Armory
1624 2013-04-09 13:23:04 <Jonathan_L> Should I wipe the entire blockchain data?
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1626 2013-04-09 13:23:15 <etotheipi__> none of that should affect the raw blockchain files
1627 2013-04-09 13:23:16 <Jonathan_L> If the blockchain data got corrupt
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1629 2013-04-09 13:23:27 <Jonathan_L> I mean that Bitcoin-Qt also crashed
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1632 2013-04-09 13:23:46 <Jonathan_L> So maybe it was saving the raw blockchain files, and froze, so I killed it
1633 2013-04-09 13:23:54 <Jonathan_L> And then it could handle it, and Armory can't
1634 2013-04-09 13:24:12 <etotheipi__> Jonathan_L: but if it crashes immediately ,it must be near the beginning
1635 2013-04-09 13:24:55 <Jonathan_L> what's your email now?
1636 2013-04-09 13:25:00 <Jonathan_L> So I can send the logs
1637 2013-04-09 13:25:18 <Jonathan_L> do you have a debug version? I could try running that
1638 2013-04-09 13:25:30 <etotheipi__> Jonathan_L: you can run with --debug
1639 2013-04-09 13:25:35 <Jonathan_L> I don't mind if it spits out a 20 MB log file for the crash
1640 2013-04-09 13:25:36 <etotheipi__> but it doesn't have much more dat
1641 2013-04-09 13:25:38 <etotheipi__> *data
1642 2013-04-09 13:26:02 <etotheipi__> but if you run it in the command line, you should see some extra output from the C++ code that the log file can't catch
1643 2013-04-09 13:26:24 <Jonathan_L> ok, doing that now
1644 2013-04-09 13:26:30 <etotheipi__> either way, send me the latest log file you have, etotheipi@gmail.com
1645 2013-04-09 13:26:32 <Jonathan_L> Crashing it first, then I'll do that
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1647 2013-04-09 13:27:36 <Jonathan_L> It crashed after 2-3 seconds
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1650 2013-04-09 13:28:03 <sivu> interesting stuff in the blockchain when looking the data with strings
1651 2013-04-09 13:28:14 <sivu> ascii art etc
1652 2013-04-09 13:28:32 <Jonathan_L> etotheipi__: instant crash when I ran it from cmd with --debug
1653 2013-04-09 13:28:44 <etotheipi__> Jonathan_L: something is wacky
1654 2013-04-09 13:28:58 <etotheipi__> Jonathan_L: let's take this to #bitcoin-armory
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1657 2013-04-09 13:30:45 <Jonathan_L> etotheipi__: sending the email now
1658 2013-04-09 13:31:00 <Jonathan_L> Moving over to that channel now
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1660 2013-04-09 13:31:33 <fanquake> unas I can test stuff mate. Might not be setup to build from source on that machine, so if you can send an app that'd be handy
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1663 2013-04-09 13:35:48 <sivu> so has the cp attack against blockchain been considered?
1664 2013-04-09 13:35:49 iceblue has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1665 2013-04-09 13:35:59 <sivu> that would be a legal mess
1666 2013-04-09 13:36:10 <n1c> I think it was briefly mentioned yesterday.
1667 2013-04-09 13:36:13 <n1c> Didn't really catch it.
1668 2013-04-09 13:36:44 <sivu> somebody sends a transaction that has embedded child porn in it.
1669 2013-04-09 13:36:52 <sivu> everyone running bitcoind would be a sex offender
1670 2013-04-09 13:37:17 <n1c> Yup.
1671 2013-04-09 13:38:24 <alaricsp> I worry about that one
1672 2013-04-09 13:38:41 <lupine> well, it'd be alright in .uk
1673 2013-04-09 13:39:00 <alaricsp> Somebody already put a tribute to some dead person in the blockchain, I believe, so it's easily doable!
1674 2013-04-09 13:39:12 <sivu> maybe in vatican
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1679 2013-04-09 13:39:31 <lupine> there was a case recently that got into the news - the child porn had been automatically downloaded (image prefetching) by the browser into Temporary Internet Files
1680 2013-04-09 13:39:41 <lupine> the dude had to go to court, but he got not guilty back
1681 2013-04-09 13:39:49 <alaricsp> Aye, but was their computer then *redistributing* it to anyone who came asking? :-)
1682 2013-04-09 13:40:13 <lupine> no, but that wouldn't change the merits of the case
1683 2013-04-09 13:40:17 * alaricsp imagines that if it happens, it will be called "The Jimmy Saville Block".
1684 2013-04-09 13:40:49 <lupine> no mens rea, which is important for this class of offence
1685 2013-04-09 13:41:23 <alaricsp> I can imagine a mechanism being added to bitcoind, if required, that says "For the block with hash X, zero out this range of bytes AFTER checking the hash"
1686 2013-04-09 13:41:34 <alaricsp> Oooh, lupine used SCARY LEGAL LATIN WORDS
1687 2013-04-09 13:41:36 * alaricsp runs and hides
1688 2013-04-09 13:41:42 <lupine> the bytes might be there, but you can show you had no intention of accessing them, and didn't intentionally download them with the purpose of viewing them, so no foul
1689 2013-04-09 13:41:59 <alaricsp> . o O ( Is Chris Rea in the men's loos? With a small child?!?!?!? )
1690 2013-04-09 13:42:15 <lupine> otherwise, I could just argue that my digits-of-pi generator is a compression algorithm for child porn, much like jpegs
1691 2013-04-09 13:42:27 <alaricsp> I suspect you'd be expected to get rid of them somehow, though, once you knew they were there
1692 2013-04-09 13:42:41 <fanquake> sivu n1c check the dev mailing list, http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=BLU0-SMTP1397D392A87B5A2E21636B8C8C60%40phx.gbl&forum_name=bitcoin-development
1693 2013-04-09 13:43:07 <lupine> well, the police would confiscate your computer and wipe it then return it to you, but you wouldn't be jailed
1694 2013-04-09 13:43:19 mercerist has joined
1695 2013-04-09 13:43:19 <lupine> I'd be interested to see how many times that could repeat
1696 2013-04-09 13:43:56 <n1c> Interesting thanks.
1697 2013-04-09 13:44:08 <lupine> it's certainly be awkward, though
1698 2013-04-09 13:44:08 <BenderCoin__> lupine, 'you would not be jailed', of course you would anyone and everyone with cp on their drive will be jailed and tried. some may get off, but it will be hell.
1699 2013-04-09 13:44:12 volante has joined
1700 2013-04-09 13:44:24 <lupine> BenderCoin__, "jailed" here means "found guilty and sentenced to jail time"
1701 2013-04-09 13:44:34 <lupine> sure, you'd likely be arrested, and then almost certainly bailed
1702 2013-04-09 13:44:40 <lupine> but that's not the same thing
1703 2013-04-09 13:44:40 oiram has joined
1704 2013-04-09 13:44:56 <volante> where can i read about how the bitcoin client finds its initial peers?
1705 2013-04-09 13:44:57 <BenderCoin__> yes, and everyone with cp on their drive will be jailed except in very rare cases.
1706 2013-04-09 13:45:12 <lupine> I discussed a relevant case where that didn't happen just now
1707 2013-04-09 13:45:15 rdymac has joined
1708 2013-04-09 13:45:27 <BenderCoin__> yes, a very rare case
1709 2013-04-09 13:45:30 Painke has joined
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1712 2013-04-09 13:45:43 WKNiGHT has joined
1713 2013-04-09 13:45:54 <lupine> well, what made is different are exactly the features that make it like the bitcoin example
1714 2013-04-09 13:47:12 <lupine> I can't actually find the case offhand; it only came to my attention because the guy was suing the police to get his computers back
1715 2013-04-09 13:47:21 <BenderCoin__> ok, well then make the rare case the first one for the blockchain, then every prosecution afterwards would be 'were you aware the blockchain had cp in it?'
1716 2013-04-09 13:47:29 <fanquake> volante https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Network#Bootstrapping
1717 2013-04-09 13:47:33 <lupine> there's only so many variants of "child porn" one is willing to search the internet for
1718 2013-04-09 13:47:46 oiram_ has joined
1719 2013-04-09 13:47:55 <BenderCoin__> plus going to trial for cp is a prosecution and conviction socially in itself. go to court for cp and you will lose everything in your life you hold dear.
1720 2013-04-09 13:48:04 <lupine> no doubt
1721 2013-04-09 13:48:22 Falf has joined
1722 2013-04-09 13:48:53 <BenderCoin__> I guess I am saying that it is very very grave and no one should just assume they can take some easy defense or have some type of deniability that the cops will just say 'oh ok, no problem'
1723 2013-04-09 13:50:00 <BenderCoin__> I expect the only solution is some type of monkey patch in the client that can put a place holder in the known location of the cp that can contain the hash value for the computation somehow yet not contain the data.
1724 2013-04-09 13:50:53 oiram has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1725 2013-04-09 13:50:55 cc_8 has joined
1726 2013-04-09 13:50:55 cc_8 is now known as alphaguru
1727 2013-04-09 13:51:25 <volante> fanquake: thanks
1728 2013-04-09 13:51:27 <BenderCoin__> miners can reject it if they knew what it was ahead of time, but after the fact stuff is a big issue. this issue is one of the achilles heels of global acceptance
1729 2013-04-09 13:51:39 <n1c> Nah
1730 2013-04-09 13:51:41 <lupine> so you want some sort of... global ookup table of porn?
1731 2013-04-09 13:51:43 <n1c> I don't think it's such a big deal tbh.
1732 2013-04-09 13:52:09 <BenderCoin__> lupine, other examples are it being banned in muslim countries after people inject anti-mohammed slurs into the blockchain
1733 2013-04-09 13:52:25 dlunch has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1734 2013-04-09 13:52:43 <kuzetsa> BenderCoin__: oh wow... there are slurs in the blockchain?
1735 2013-04-09 13:52:44 <n1c> Read the dev-list discussion
1736 2013-04-09 13:52:46 <n1c> "Secondly, the need to host blocks forever. In future, many (most?) full
1737 2013-04-09 13:52:46 <n1c> nodes will be pruning, and won't actually store old blocks at all. They'll
1738 2013-04-09 13:52:46 <n1c> just have the utxo database, some undo blocks and some number of old blocks
1739 2013-04-09 13:52:46 <n1c> for serving, probably whatever fits in the amount of disk space the user is
1740 2013-04-09 13:52:46 <n1c> willing to allocate. But very old blocks will have been deleted.
1741 2013-04-09 13:52:46 <n1c> "
1742 2013-04-09 13:52:48 <n1c> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=BLU0-SMTP1397D392A87B5A2E21636B8C8C60@phx.gbl&forum_name=bitcoin-development
1743 2013-04-09 13:52:57 <Scrat> it would cause a streisand effect in both cases and overturn any ruling
1744 2013-04-09 13:52:59 dlunch has joined
1745 2013-04-09 13:53:13 <BenderCoin__> nlc its no big deal until its made a huge media big deal. anti-mohammed slurs would cut out a large portion of the world from using it, if it was known that any muslim with a bitcoin client had this stuff on his drive.
1746 2013-04-09 13:53:28 <Scrat> people (especially retarded judges/jury) will eventually get the concept of an undeletable chain
1747 2013-04-09 13:53:54 <lupine> just export a symbol "shitting_dicknipples", don't strip the binary, and see the response
1748 2013-04-09 13:53:57 <lupine> protip: no response
1749 2013-04-09 13:53:58 <kuzetsa> Scrat: hmm... ok, will that be a good thing?
1750 2013-04-09 13:54:36 blinky has quit ()
1751 2013-04-09 13:55:01 <BenderCoin__> nlc yeah thats good re: pruning, and it will be very important as soon as the blockchain starts to get attacked with illegal speech
1752 2013-04-09 13:55:01 <Scrat> kuzetsa: this is new territory we're treading on
1753 2013-04-09 13:55:13 <Scrat> BenderCoin__: i think you're blowing this out of proportion
1754 2013-04-09 13:55:32 <lupine> it's barely worth mentioning in my view
1755 2013-04-09 13:56:41 Joe21 has joined
1756 2013-04-09 13:57:17 <BenderCoin__> its not out of proportion when a routine hard drive scan at a us border can get you thrown in prison for a cp gif in the blockchain, or your head cut off going through the middle east for anti muslim slurs on your drive. which both of these things are coming as soon as the script kiddies start injecting graffiti all over the blockchain for lulz
1757 2013-04-09 13:57:42 <lupine> that interpretation is indeed out of proportion
1758 2013-04-09 13:57:53 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1759 2013-04-09 13:58:05 iceblue has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1760 2013-04-09 13:58:22 <BenderCoin__> lupine, you are saying that you can have a gif of cp on your drive and get a hd scan (which happens all the time now) and not get thrown in the slammer? today?
1761 2013-04-09 13:58:29 <alaricsp> Well, it's already risky to have data you don't control on your computer in those situations
1762 2013-04-09 13:58:41 <lupine> BenderCoin__, it's certainly possible, yes
1763 2013-04-09 13:58:44 <alaricsp> Temporary Internet Files and worms and all sorts can already screw you there
1764 2013-04-09 13:59:00 banghouse has joined
1765 2013-04-09 13:59:07 <BenderCoin__> yes, but most people don't have cp, cause they are not storing other peoples files. but with the blockchain you are just downloading anything that comes down the line.
1766 2013-04-09 13:59:12 <alaricsp> The advice for most people travelling across such borders these days is to factory-wipe your OS before travel and then restore from a backup once you've arrived
1767 2013-04-09 13:59:31 mercerist has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1768 2013-04-09 13:59:33 <lupine> I doubt any "hard drive scan" software can even read the block chain data, let along pick out GIF headers in it though
1769 2013-04-09 13:59:38 <fanquake> BenderCoin__ So all these "script kiddies" are gunna spend $600 - $700 now, and $1000's just for the lolz?
1770 2013-04-09 13:59:40 <Scrat> I believe that would fall under the safe harbor provisions
1771 2013-04-09 13:59:55 <Scrat> you can prove that you dont control data in the blockchain
1772 2013-04-09 14:00:05 <fanquake> * $1000's later
1773 2013-04-09 14:00:20 <lupine> anyway, I had fun in morocco, reading pharyngula and watching ordinary pornography
1774 2013-04-09 14:00:29 <alaricsp> BenderCoin__: Yes, it's a bigger window of opportunity compared to spam emails and other ways of sneaking things onto people's computers, but perhaps not a whole new risk
1775 2013-04-09 14:00:50 <lupine> I can't speak for draconian countries like the US, of course, but saner ones take a more relaxed attitude to these things
1776 2013-04-09 14:01:11 * alaricsp was once involved in a project to send encrypted evidence of a crime to the then Home Secretary in protest against a proposed law to make withholding the keys to encrypted data found on you by the police a crime :-)
1777 2013-04-09 14:01:19 <lupine> RIPA?
1778 2013-04-09 14:01:52 <alaricsp> Yeah
1779 2013-04-09 14:01:56 dust-otc has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1780 2013-04-09 14:02:01 <lupine> there's a clusterfuck
1781 2013-04-09 14:02:48 <lupine> especially the reversal of the burden of evidence
1782 2013-04-09 14:02:56 <BenderCoin__> I am not saying its a huge issue right now (because the blockchain is clean ATM), I am saying its a very important one with huge implications as more shit gets injected into the blockchain. and no it does not need to be a script kiddie it can be any well funded organization that wants to cause bitcoin problems.
1783 2013-04-09 14:02:59 Falf has left ()
1784 2013-04-09 14:03:00 <alaricsp> One of the team confessed to a crime in a text file, encrypted it, and destroyed the encryption key (with many witnesses to the destruction)
1785 2013-04-09 14:03:05 <Scrat> whats the character limit for blockchain messages?
1786 2013-04-09 14:03:23 <alaricsp> Then we sent the encrypted confession on a floppy disk to Jack Straw along with a letter saying that under his proposed legislation, he could now be charged.
1787 2013-04-09 14:03:33 <lupine> doesn't matter, you can send multipart messages
1788 2013-04-09 14:03:37 <ali1234> a floppy disk?
1789 2013-04-09 14:03:39 <ali1234> really?
1790 2013-04-09 14:03:45 <ali1234> it wasn't that long ago was it?
1791 2013-04-09 14:03:51 <alaricsp> Gah, archive.org can't find stand.org.uk :-(
1792 2013-04-09 14:04:02 <alaricsp> It's 503ing, perhaps it will heal
1793 2013-04-09 14:04:31 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
1794 2013-04-09 14:04:37 <Scrat> lupine: then I can argue that since xor'ing skype.exe with derp.bin produces a cp gif, then skype.exe is illegal
1795 2013-04-09 14:04:58 mercerist has joined
1796 2013-04-09 14:05:06 <alaricsp> Scrat: You'll blow their tiny minds! :-D
1797 2013-04-09 14:05:26 * alaricsp remembered talk of an image file format that just so happened to extract the US constitution into a porn image
1798 2013-04-09 14:05:47 <alaricsp> It was "designed" as one for sending images via email, so was not sensitive to whitespace and all that
1799 2013-04-09 14:06:05 <ali1234> tis was brought up the other day. see illegal primes
1800 2013-04-09 14:06:15 <BlueMatt> alaricsp: any chance you could dig that out?
1801 2013-04-09 14:06:18 <alaricsp> I have a t-shirt that does not have the CSS key on it
1802 2013-04-09 14:06:26 <alaricsp> BlueMatt: I tried a while ago, and couldn't find it any more, sorry :-(
1803 2013-04-09 14:06:36 <alaricsp> This would have come up on some newsgroup or mailing list in the mid 1990s, I think
1804 2013-04-09 14:06:45 <BlueMatt> ahh, well whatever
1805 2013-04-09 14:07:08 oiram_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1806 2013-04-09 14:07:08 <alaricsp> Anyway, yes, my t-shirt doesn't have the CSS key on it; it has the hex numbers on either side of it, with the CSS key <CENSORED> :-)
1807 2013-04-09 14:07:29 <Scrat> lupine that file will probably have to be base64'd & multiparted, thats enough transformations right there to invoke my argument
1808 2013-04-09 14:07:48 <lupine> Scrat, indeed, i'm on the same side as you here
1809 2013-04-09 14:07:59 <lupine> I really don't think it's worth worrying a lot about
1810 2013-04-09 14:08:19 iceblue has joined
1811 2013-04-09 14:08:20 <lupine> it'll be awkward, and terrible PR, of course
1812 2013-04-09 14:09:05 <Scrat> I wonder if something can be to done in order to make it uneconomical
1813 2013-04-09 14:09:16 <Scrat> as in costing millions
1814 2013-04-09 14:09:17 <BlueMatt> it already is
1815 2013-04-09 14:09:18 <BenderCoin__> Forbes interview with Gavin: Forbes: Is it true there is cp in the bitcoin software or blockchain? Gavin: Yes, absolutely, but its no big deal.
1816 2013-04-09 14:10:18 <BlueMatt> BenderCoin__: "Yes, if you run a very old version of the software that stores all the history, sure...but no one does that", but maybe I just agree with TD here
1817 2013-04-09 14:10:21 <BenderCoin__> Forbes: So do you have bitcoin on your notebook there? Gavin: Yes I do. Forbes: So you have cp on your notebook right there next to you? Gavin: Absolutely, but its no big deal.
1818 2013-04-09 14:10:22 <gavinandresen> Gavin: I have no idea, the blockchain is gigabytes big and I don't inspect it.
1819 2013-04-09 14:10:36 <lupine> "there's less cp in bitcoin than there is in google"
1820 2013-04-09 14:10:37 <BlueMatt> heh
1821 2013-04-09 14:10:45 xQuasar has joined
1822 2013-04-09 14:10:46 <BenderCoin__> BlueMatt, yes, that is the goal, but that is not what the software does now, nor anytime in the near future.
1823 2013-04-09 14:10:48 <lupine> "go bug them about it for a change, why don't you?"
1824 2013-04-09 14:11:16 <BlueMatt> BenderCoin__: ok...so unless you have a solution to suggest...
1825 2013-04-09 14:11:16 <xQuasar> motherfucking niggerfuckers everywhere holy flying cuntshit faggots why don't you all go blow your dickhead pussies up the arse fuark YOLOSWAG
1826 2013-04-09 14:11:33 <BenderCoin__> gavinandresen, that is a good answer, but once it is proven and publicized it won't matter if you know or not, the fact will be it is there and everyone will know it
1827 2013-04-09 14:11:56 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I'm thinking about implementing a quick test for non-random hashes⦠(writing a little code for it, actually)
1828 2013-04-09 14:12:00 * lupine waits patiently for the nPIRA to learn that they can send each other TERRORIST MESSAGES using bitcoin
1829 2013-04-09 14:12:19 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: hmm?>
1830 2013-04-09 14:12:33 <BenderCoin__> BlueMatt, yeah, the pruned blockchain, the ability for clients to have self censored sections of the chain with monkey patches so calcs can still be done without having the actual data there in some parts
1831 2013-04-09 14:12:33 <lupine> also no big deal
1832 2013-04-09 14:13:11 <BlueMatt> BenderCoin__: ok...so you just suggested that we do something that, according to you, wont happen "nor anytime in the near future."
1833 2013-04-09 14:13:14 <BenderCoin__> there can be many creative solutions that can be thought up, and many already have
1834 2013-04-09 14:13:15 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: making obviously ASCII hashes fail the IsStandard() test would stop all of the 'strings' blockchain spamming.
1835 2013-04-09 14:13:33 skeledrew1 has joined
1836 2013-04-09 14:13:42 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yea, I was thinking about that last night, though if you want to be lazy, just write one random byte between each tx in blk*.dat
1837 2013-04-09 14:14:03 <BlueMatt> then the whole thing goes poof, though with a bit of extra disk space
1838 2013-04-09 14:14:21 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1839 2013-04-09 14:14:25 paraipan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1840 2013-04-09 14:14:31 <MC1984_> no dont censor your goddamn chain because some anonface paid $500 to put ascii cp in the chain
1841 2013-04-09 14:14:36 <alaricsp> XORing some locally-generated junk over the txns would, at least, make it not strings-findable and mean you needed to go to some effort to extract it
1842 2013-04-09 14:14:39 <MC1984_> for christ sake
1843 2013-04-09 14:14:40 <BenderCoin__> BlueMatt, no, I am saying that what we have now is no defence, and the response you gave as a defense is not something that is implemented now, nor is it high on the list. gavinandresens suggestion just now is another great example of ideas that can be done to help with this
1844 2013-04-09 14:15:05 <lupine> all you do is add one step to extract the information
1845 2013-04-09 14:15:09 paraipan has joined
1846 2013-04-09 14:15:33 <lupine> it's a persistent storage area that you have no control over, however you try to wash it
1847 2013-04-09 14:15:44 <gavinandresen> "one step to extract the information" is fine, that makes it much less interesting.
1848 2013-04-09 14:15:48 <BlueMatt> BenderCoin__: ummm...no, gavin just suggested an IsStandard check, which doesnt prevent anything, just makes it a bit more expensive...given that it already is...meh?
1849 2013-04-09 14:16:03 <lupine> then rot13 the block before saving it ^^
1850 2013-04-09 14:16:03 <ali1234> how is this different to me writing "niggers" on the back of a cheque and then saying the bank is racist?
1851 2013-04-09 14:16:14 <gavinandresen> rot13 won't be enough for what I'm working on.
1852 2013-04-09 14:17:02 <n1c> ali1234: the bank doesn't re-print the cheque and send it to other people to keep a copy.
1853 2013-04-09 14:17:16 <n1c> But that said, I don't really care much for this I think it's a non-issue.
1854 2013-04-09 14:17:20 <gavinandresen> and yeah, all this is "meh", I'm mostly working on it for fun/interest/learning about "does this look random"
1855 2013-04-09 14:17:21 <lupine> it will send you a copy of the cheque on request, actually
1856 2013-04-09 14:17:25 <ali1234> well, they do if i write it in the "payee ref" field
1857 2013-04-09 14:17:29 <lupine> they even charge for it
1858 2013-04-09 14:17:35 <BenderCoin__> BlueMatt, more expensive may be fine. the bigger issue for example with muslims would be if ascii text with anti-mohhamed slurs was just sitting there in the blockchain readable with strings blockchain and encypted file of cp with even a known key might not even be a problem
1859 2013-04-09 14:17:41 <gavinandresen> (because we could use an is-your-random-number-generator-broken check at startup, too)
1860 2013-04-09 14:17:43 <lupine> BANK PROFITS FROM CP!!!1!!
1861 2013-04-09 14:17:48 alphaguru has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1862 2013-04-09 14:17:52 <BenderCoin__> gavinandresen, good stuff
1863 2013-04-09 14:18:13 alphaguru has joined
1864 2013-04-09 14:18:15 tonikt has joined
1865 2013-04-09 14:18:24 normanrichards has joined
1866 2013-04-09 14:18:35 asuk has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
1867 2013-04-09 14:18:54 <alaricsp> gavinandresen: Careful about drawing conclusions about the randomness of small strings, though! What happens if you accidentally class a random string as non-random? Best make the issuers of legitimate hashes check them and try a different input if they'd not be accepted?
1868 2013-04-09 14:19:29 <alaricsp> The randomness checks used to test RNGs work with huge runs of data, as it's hard to be sure otherwise
1869 2013-04-09 14:19:31 <gavinandresen> alaricsp: of course.
1870 2013-04-09 14:19:39 <alaricsp> gavinandresen: Good man! :-)
1871 2013-04-09 14:19:54 oiram has joined
1872 2013-04-09 14:19:58 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: at the risk of allowing this discussion to continue (it shouldnt...) adding random checks to IsStandard doesnt really help anything, it only addresses ascii but as gmaxwell pointed out a long time ago, some media encodings will scan a whole file until it finds the start magic and then start reading, in that case it looks random
1873 2013-04-09 14:20:14 <BlueMatt> so it doesnt matter for the case of images/media
1874 2013-04-09 14:20:48 <gavinandresen> images/media aren't random
1875 2013-04-09 14:21:01 <gavinandresen> well, I suppose if they are heavily compressed they might....
1876 2013-04-09 14:21:08 <BlueMatt> yea
1877 2013-04-09 14:21:12 <gavinandresen> although usually there is metadata at the front that isn't random
1878 2013-04-09 14:21:33 <alaricsp> Indeed, but the headers are often somewhat optional
1879 2013-04-09 14:21:36 <BlueMatt> like 2 bytes of magic and metadata that looks randomish
1880 2013-04-09 14:21:36 <gavinandresen> ⦠so the transactions encoding them (or some of them) would be rejected by IsStandard.
1881 2013-04-09 14:21:48 <BlueMatt> if you dont want metadata, you can skip it
1882 2013-04-09 14:22:08 <alaricsp> A raw MPEG stream is pretty random, with tiny bursts of synch data every now and then
1883 2013-04-09 14:22:15 <gavinandresen> okey dokey. LIke I said, if you have to be told where to look or have to have a special tool to extract the data: meh. Transaction fees are the only answer.
1884 2013-04-09 14:22:28 jsfsn has joined
1885 2013-04-09 14:22:39 <alaricsp> And JPEG files have a header, but that's just a wrapper around an underlying JPEG stream which you can use without the header
1886 2013-04-09 14:23:25 <alaricsp> gavinandresen: Quite. I think some simple mechanisms to mean it's not just a matter of strings-on-the-.dat-files would help a lot. Even XORing the transactions with something before storing them, and storing that something in another file alongside, would dull the edge of sensationalism.
1887 2013-04-09 14:24:03 <HM> are you trying to devise a way to prevent the blockchain from being used to store illegal strings?
1888 2013-04-09 14:24:10 <Scrat> lets go all out, double rot13
1889 2013-04-09 14:24:13 <alaricsp> If you need to write/install special software to view it, then it suddenly doesn't look so scary when demoed on live TV
1890 2013-04-09 14:24:17 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: my point was that you dont need a special tool for some decoders
1891 2013-04-09 14:24:17 <BlueMatt> vlc blk*.dat -> plays
1892 2013-04-09 14:24:17 <BlueMatt> well, s/vlc/decoder for specific media type/
1893 2013-04-09 14:24:18 <BlueMatt> or maybe vlc -type=... blk*.dat
1894 2013-04-09 14:24:51 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: vlc is video or audio?
1895 2013-04-09 14:25:14 <alaricsp> BlueMatt: Yeah, MPEG is designed to be broadcast, so you get a bit stream with errors in it that you come into at some random point. No chance to have a "header" at the "beginning" and the decoder has to fish around for what it can recognise and run with that
1896 2013-04-09 14:25:22 <alaricsp> gavinandresen: Video AND audio
1897 2013-04-09 14:25:24 <BlueMatt> vlc will open anything, but I believe the codec gmaxwell was referring to was an audio one xiph was doing
1898 2013-04-09 14:25:48 <gavinandresen> ok. I can see audio working, because it is 1D. Video, you at least need to know the x&y dimensions....
1899 2013-04-09 14:25:51 <BlueMatt> anyway, Ill shut up, this conversation is a waste of our time :)
1900 2013-04-09 14:26:01 <Scrat> BlueMatt: then it will reach the end of the transaction and stop
1901 2013-04-09 14:26:05 <Scrat> BlueMatt: agreed
1902 2013-04-09 14:26:13 <volante> does bitcoin-qt provide a way to see network difficulty? i can't see it anywhere
1903 2013-04-09 14:26:17 <alaricsp> gavinandresen: MPEG2 has x&y dimensions, but they'r ereplicated throughout the stream
1904 2013-04-09 14:26:18 oiram has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1905 2013-04-09 14:26:23 <ali1234> audio you need to know sample format, rate and number of channels
1906 2013-04-09 14:26:29 <runeks> Why does dumpprivkey fail for change addresses? I've been looking at the code for an hour now, and I can't figure out how it fits together.
1907 2013-04-09 14:26:29 <BlueMatt> for the 2 people in here who care: implement storing random bytes in the chain on blk*.dat on disk only
1908 2013-04-09 14:26:30 <alaricsp> No "header" per se, just repeated metadata on every frame
1909 2013-04-09 14:26:32 <ali1234> it's the same thing really
1910 2013-04-09 14:26:34 <volante> i thought this would be a good way to confirm security if you were unsure of the peers you were connected to
1911 2013-04-09 14:26:39 <gavinandresen> if they're duplicated through the stream then they're not random and will probably fail the isstandard test.....
1912 2013-04-09 14:27:05 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: are you running random test across all outputs in a tx?
1913 2013-04-09 14:27:07 <alaricsp> That depends on how it works. Shall I tell you what I know of MPEG2 so you know what to look for, or is this boring you?
1914 2013-04-09 14:27:24 <alaricsp> It's been ~5 years since I wrote an MPEG stream decoder, so this is a bit hazy :-)
1915 2013-04-09 14:27:30 <BlueMatt> or I suppose all outputs in a block, since you can get txn to appear sequentially with some small effort
1916 2013-04-09 14:27:40 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: just the hashes, and maybe public keys
1917 2013-04-09 14:28:17 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: the logic is: hashes and public keys should look pretty darn random. If they aren't, then you're doing something non-standard with them.
1918 2013-04-09 14:28:44 <alaricsp> I can't remember how often the various levels of sync pattern and framing occur in MPEG, but making sure you never get that many bytes in a row of user-controlled data without some of your own headers appearing would help to prevent MPEG2
1919 2013-04-09 14:28:54 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: well, gmaxwell could be more specific, I just dont think it'll work...
1920 2013-04-09 14:29:09 <lupine> what do you do when a valid transaction happens to look very non-random ?
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1922 2013-04-09 14:31:11 <gavinandresen> lupine: it'll be non-standard. Actually, if you were insanely unlucky and had a key that hashed to a very-non-random 20-byte string, the code could spend it using a 1-of-1 P2SH to workaround thatâ¦.
1923 2013-04-09 14:31:38 <gavinandresen> ⦠but the chances of that happening are so vanishingly small I don't think we need to worry abou ti
1924 2013-04-09 14:32:00 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: a non-randomness test could work, I suspect, but only if all clients knew about it so they could retry key generation when they fail it.
1925 2013-04-09 14:32:17 <BlueMatt> ok, then
1926 2013-04-09 14:32:38 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: test can start out extremely strict so the chances of a key failing are 1 in 10 quadrillion....
1927 2013-04-09 14:32:47 <gmaxwell> The problem is that very small strings just don't give you a lot of context.
1928 2013-04-09 14:33:09 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: then it won't likely fail many actually non-random strings.
1929 2013-04-09 14:33:51 vrs has joined
1930 2013-04-09 14:33:57 <vrs> http://blockchain.info/blocks/ what's up with all these orphans?
1931 2013-04-09 14:34:01 <gmaxwell> I havn't read all the backscroll.
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1933 2013-04-09 14:34:09 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: that's fine, as long as it fails a good percentage of long random messages it will discourage spammers
1934 2013-04-09 14:34:26 volante has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
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1936 2013-04-09 14:34:37 <lupine> plus, it's one of those areas where taking special pains to avoid it actually worsens your position
1937 2013-04-09 14:34:38 <vrs> http://blockchain.info/blocks/1365430055753 yesterday looks fine so it might just be a bc.info bug
1938 2013-04-09 14:34:58 <lupine> you can't avoid all instances, but that won't stop the courts asking you to
1939 2013-04-09 14:35:04 <alaricsp> I think a bit of discouragement will be good, as long as it doesn't cause too many false positives, and just XORing each record saved to the bll*.dat files with some random string and storing it alongside would be FINE.
1940 2013-04-09 14:35:09 <lupine> look at poor BT with newzbin
1941 2013-04-09 14:35:55 oiram has joined
1942 2013-04-09 14:36:12 <alaricsp> Also, jumble the order of things on disk as much as you can.
1943 2013-04-09 14:36:43 <lupine> I'd suggest you want the block chain to be as efficient as possible. it's already an arse
1944 2013-04-09 14:38:53 <vrs> ah the blockchain.info list seems to have fixed itself
1945 2013-04-09 14:39:36 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: a simple "are all bytes in this 7 bit clear" test will fail 1:1048576 valid keys... which I think is far too many.
1946 2013-04-09 14:39:40 Gnaf has joined
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1948 2013-04-09 14:41:00 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I agree
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1953 2013-04-09 14:42:29 <lupine> running strings on the block.dat files is actually unenlightening
1954 2013-04-09 14:42:40 <lupine> very many uninsteresting positives even with -n10
1955 2013-04-09 14:42:52 <alaricsp> lupine: Infinite Monkeys! :-)
1956 2013-04-09 14:43:26 <lupine> -n24 is more interesting
1957 2013-04-09 14:43:29 <pgvoorhees> alaricsp: wouldn't that be something...
1958 2013-04-09 14:43:39 <lupine> and, hey, already breaches british libel law if you want to get snarky
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1963 2013-04-09 14:46:04 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: if you want to talk about media formats ... some compressed formats will pass any test of randomness you want to throw at them.
1964 2013-04-09 14:46:16 henry_ has joined
1965 2013-04-09 14:46:50 <gmaxwell> (any way a non-random detector could reliably detect oneâ was a way we could reduce the size of the file!)
1966 2013-04-09 14:47:05 <gmaxwell> but at least those are not likely to work by just pointing a tool at the blockchain. :)
1967 2013-04-09 14:47:16 <gonffen> .infographic
1968 2013-04-09 14:47:25 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
1969 2013-04-09 14:47:38 zz_qwertyoruiop is now known as qwertyoruiop
1970 2013-04-09 14:47:42 <gonffen> .graphic
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1978 2013-04-09 14:51:56 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, that is what I was thinking about, as long as a standard tool wont pick up those by scanning the chain for start magic, I dont care
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2021 2013-04-09 15:24:25 <gmaxwell> sipa: I like how it took that guy 6 days and 4 more emails to bother reading your response.
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2027 2013-04-09 15:31:54 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
2028 2013-04-09 15:31:56 <Diablo-D3> hey gmaxwell
2029 2013-04-09 15:32:21 <Diablo-D3> if I had a long linked list that was ordered and I needed to traverse it quickly, would a jump list be the best bet?
2030 2013-04-09 15:33:07 t7 has joined
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2034 2013-04-09 15:34:49 <HM> Diablo-D3: you could create a skip list yeah
2035 2013-04-09 15:34:54 n1c has quit (Quit: peace out)
2036 2013-04-09 15:35:03 <HM> or just swap out for a tree structure
2037 2013-04-09 15:35:15 Tantadruj has quit (Quit: DoubleRecall Turns Paywalls Into Advertising Dollars - NYTimes.com http://nyti.ms/odHOgy)
2038 2013-04-09 15:35:22 <HM> or even a sorted vector would allow binary search
2039 2013-04-09 15:35:41 nsillik has joined
2040 2013-04-09 15:36:32 <t7> jn, they liked your website on reddit btw
2041 2013-04-09 15:36:37 <t7> lots of lovely karma for me
2042 2013-04-09 15:36:39 SchmalzTech has joined
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2047 2013-04-09 15:45:16 <gfinn> t7: url?
2048 2013-04-09 15:45:44 <t7> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1bwok8/realtime_bitcoin_stats_by_jn_on_bitcoindev/
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2053 2013-04-09 15:48:18 <gfinn> thanks
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2076 2013-04-09 16:04:28 <jn> t7: that's great :)
2077 2013-04-09 16:04:49 sebicas is now known as Guest23359
2078 2013-04-09 16:04:54 <jn> it had 50k+ unique visitors past 24h
2079 2013-04-09 16:05:02 <t7> nice work
2080 2013-04-09 16:05:14 <t7> my fee is 1BTC for the publicity
2081 2013-04-09 16:06:04 <jn> haha, didn't you get lots of karma?
2082 2013-04-09 16:06:11 Guest23359 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2083 2013-04-09 16:06:12 <jn> i think i should be charging you
2084 2013-04-09 16:06:21 <jn> :P
2085 2013-04-09 16:07:13 oiram has joined
2086 2013-04-09 16:08:24 <t7> i will transfer my karma for bitcoins
2087 2013-04-09 16:08:56 <t7> jn where do you host that?
2088 2013-04-09 16:09:03 mercerist has joined
2089 2013-04-09 16:09:41 <jn> t7: tilaa.com
2090 2013-04-09 16:09:53 twobitcoins has joined
2091 2013-04-09 16:10:12 <t7> 3 euros for a VPS :O
2092 2013-04-09 16:10:39 <jn> well you want a little more than their smallest
2093 2013-04-09 16:10:45 coblee has joined
2094 2013-04-09 16:10:47 nsillik has joined
2095 2013-04-09 16:11:20 <jn> but it's a great host
2096 2013-04-09 16:11:21 <t7> can you upload hard drive image files or do you have to use there pre built bloatware servers?
2097 2013-04-09 16:12:00 <jn> prebuilt⦠but they are really good, im using the gentoo one
2098 2013-04-09 16:12:23 twobitcoins_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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2110 2013-04-09 16:16:54 <t7> linode seem to be the only host that support that
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2143 2013-04-09 16:37:43 <MC-Droid> If mike hearn thinks the actual full chain will end up being served only by Google or whatever with everyone else suckling at the teat, why is he putting effort into giving bitcoinj a FVN capability
2144 2013-04-09 16:38:01 <MC-Droid> Or am I being unfair to his position?
2145 2013-04-09 16:38:16 <HM> FVN?
2146 2013-04-09 16:38:21 <BlueMatt> MC-Droid: you are slightly misunderstanding his position
2147 2013-04-09 16:38:26 <HM> Full verified noodle?
2148 2013-04-09 16:38:30 <HM> Fully*
2149 2013-04-09 16:38:30 <BlueMatt> also, most of the FVN stuff was done by me...
2150 2013-04-09 16:38:37 grlpx has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2151 2013-04-09 16:38:37 <BlueMatt> anyway, you can be FVN without having the full chain data
2152 2013-04-09 16:38:44 <BlueMatt> in fact, bitcoinj's full verifying stuff doesnt
2153 2013-04-09 16:39:09 ThomasV has joined
2154 2013-04-09 16:39:44 <BlueMatt> his point is you can skip downloading the entire history trustless and just trust that given 1000 people are telling you the shasum of a checkpoint of the utxo set is X, its probably X and you can trust them as well as you can trust bitcoind/-qt/j now
2155 2013-04-09 16:39:47 <MC-Droid> Chain server node then
2156 2013-04-09 16:39:54 <MC-Droid> CSN?
2157 2013-04-09 16:40:22 <BlueMatt> so nodes which remember the full chain dont matter except for a select few, and they can deal with it as they see fit
2158 2013-04-09 16:40:25 <BlueMatt> (ie charge for it)
2159 2013-04-09 16:40:33 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2160 2013-04-09 16:40:44 <sipa> it'd be even nicer if coinbases would commit to such a UTXO hash
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2162 2013-04-09 16:40:53 <MC-Droid> He's coming from a position of totally uncapped blocks though right
2163 2013-04-09 16:41:03 <BlueMatt> sipa: yes, yes, largely the same thing in any case
2164 2013-04-09 16:41:06 <sipa> so it'd not be trusting 1000 people, but every full node :)
2165 2013-04-09 16:41:21 daveluke has quit (Quit: daveluke)
2166 2013-04-09 16:41:21 <sipa> BlueMatt: in practice, if it's actually checked, yeah
2167 2013-04-09 16:41:24 <BlueMatt> MC-Droid: not relevant in this case
2168 2013-04-09 16:41:26 * BlueMatt -> lecture
2169 2013-04-09 16:41:36 <TD> MC-Droid: because i don't think that and never have?
2170 2013-04-09 16:41:39 <BlueMatt> sipa: well, ok...
2171 2013-04-09 16:42:02 <MC-Droid> In that case I'm starting to see the attraction of a rolling chain torrent
2172 2013-04-09 16:42:16 <TD> the idea that if bitcoin gets popular only big companies can serve the chain is nonsense. the calculations we've done on the scalability page clearly indicate that will never happen.
2173 2013-04-09 16:42:18 <MC-Droid> Distributing data en masses really should cost zero these days
2174 2013-04-09 16:42:36 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: 1000 'people'? you mean 1000 nodes out of my my 100,000 node botnet? or your one ISP or the guy who's 0wned your router pretending to be 1000 nodes? :P
2175 2013-04-09 16:43:07 <sipa> i assume he was talking about people and not nodes
2176 2013-04-09 16:43:10 tmsk has joined
2177 2013-04-09 16:43:17 <sipa> how that'd work in practice is harder
2178 2013-04-09 16:43:38 <gmaxwell> "First, you get 1000 people"
2179 2013-04-09 16:43:42 sebicas has joined
2180 2013-04-09 16:43:46 <gmaxwell> "and a blender"
2181 2013-04-09 16:43:56 <MC-Droid> TD: I don't know man you seem pretty resigned to fvn nodes not being as satoshi envisioned them long term
2182 2013-04-09 16:44:07 <TD> what is a "fvn node"?
2183 2013-04-09 16:44:13 <sipa> fully verifying node?
2184 2013-04-09 16:44:17 <MC-Droid> Fully verifying
2185 2013-04-09 16:44:30 <MC-Droid> Silly acronyms
2186 2013-04-09 16:44:32 <gmaxwell> "F*@#$ verbose n00b"
2187 2013-04-09 16:44:32 <TD> what i've been describing is exactly what satoshi envisioned? it's all in his white paper. SPV, pruning, the works.
2188 2013-04-09 16:44:43 debianto1user has joined
2189 2013-04-09 16:45:18 <gmaxwell> TD: Satoshi never described parts of the history being erased forever, unavailable except for a fee like you were describing yesturday.
2190 2013-04-09 16:45:23 <MC-Droid> I know he talked about it. I'm just worried it will be a sort of entropy on bitvoins decentralised nature
2191 2013-04-09 16:45:33 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2192 2013-04-09 16:45:39 <gmaxwell> A pruned node still inspects and validates the whole historyâ they just don't store it all.
2193 2013-04-09 16:45:44 <MC-Droid> Yet others seem really resigned to it already
2194 2013-04-09 16:46:05 <TD> i think you should review the https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability wiki page
2195 2013-04-09 16:46:29 <TD> you over-estimate how much traffic bitcoin needs to handle if it's popular, and underestimate what modern technology can do (and how cheap it is)
2196 2013-04-09 16:46:39 <gmaxwell> TD: I think we probably need to make it clear that that page is predominantly your personal views, and not obviously the position of the project at large.
2197 2013-04-09 16:46:42 <MC-Droid> Yeah "pay for the full chain" rustled my jimmies
2198 2013-04-09 16:47:05 <sipa> our current idea of pruning seems quite different from satoshi's view of it though
2199 2013-04-09 16:47:11 <TD> gmaxwell: he didn't describe the exact ultraprune algorithm in his paper, but it does talk about reclaiming disk space by deleting spent transactions to reclaim disk space.
2200 2013-04-09 16:47:17 <sipa> satoshi's pruning didn't allow full validation
2201 2013-04-09 16:47:25 <gmaxwell> TD: especially since the page keeps getting refutedâ and has for a long time. See Dan Kaminsky's comments on it for an example.
2202 2013-04-09 16:47:31 <TD> MC-Droid: does paying for transactions annoy you too?
2203 2013-04-09 16:47:43 <TD> MC-Droid: maybe i'm wrong and nobody will bother charging to serve the chain anyway
2204 2013-04-09 16:47:51 debianto1user has quit (Client Quit)
2205 2013-04-09 16:47:57 <TD> MC-Droid: just because i describe *a* possible future, doesn't mean it will definitely happen or even that i want it to happen
2206 2013-04-09 16:48:15 <TD> gmaxwell: he commented on a long-obsolete version so his comments (which weren't really very good at the time) are irrelevant now
2207 2013-04-09 16:48:19 <TD> so no, it's not been refuted
2208 2013-04-09 16:48:19 <gmaxwell> sipa: Huh? sure it didâ you'd only prune data personally after validating it.
2209 2013-04-09 16:48:43 <MC-Droid> No because txn space is a necessary artificial resource
2210 2013-04-09 16:48:45 <TD> sipa: he seemed to think the merkle tree was important for that. in the end we used it for something else
2211 2013-04-09 16:48:54 <sipa> right
2212 2013-04-09 16:49:02 <sipa> it's just not being done at the same level
2213 2013-04-09 16:49:04 <gmaxwell> TD: His respons was fundimentalâ if operating a full node is very costly, only a small number of special interests will do it, and they'll (or whomever controls them via whatever means) effectively control the whole shabang.
2214 2013-04-09 16:49:08 <MC-Droid> Data carriage costs just about naught and should do
2215 2013-04-09 16:49:31 <MC-Droid> Fuck we already have a chain torrent
2216 2013-04-09 16:49:40 <sipa> i doubt network will be the problem
2217 2013-04-09 16:49:52 oiram has joined
2218 2013-04-09 16:49:53 <TD> please, let's not go round this again. i'm sick to death of it. i predict a world in which a million nodes process a million transactions per second each and whatever it costs will just be absorbed as the cost of business, because it'll be cheap. ok?
2219 2013-04-09 16:50:29 <gfinn> and everyone lived happily ever after
2220 2013-04-09 16:50:40 <HM> except they were still coding in Java
2221 2013-04-09 16:50:48 <HM> so happy is relative
2222 2013-04-09 16:50:50 <HM> :P
2223 2013-04-09 16:50:50 <TD> MC-Droid: a lot of people don't have anywhere near my time horizons in these discussions. when i predicted charging to serve the chain, i was thinking of a world maybe 50 or 100 years from now where the chain may be exabytes in size
2224 2013-04-09 16:50:53 <gmaxwell> MC-Droid: yea, actually, can not you not piss all over the channel like this again for a while?
2225 2013-04-09 16:50:58 <TD> it's not like that is going to happen tomorrow
2226 2013-04-09 16:51:14 <TD> MC-Droid: like, "bitcoin became the one world currency" kind of scaling
2227 2013-04-09 16:51:14 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
2228 2013-04-09 16:51:22 <gmaxwell> MC-Droid: perhaps you don't have anything better to do because you're too cowardly to go to learn to code or whatever, but I really don't need to have this stupid ass fight with TD _daily_.
2229 2013-04-09 16:51:48 <gfinn> TD: sure but an exabyte will be 0.1% of the storage capacity of a small laptop
2230 2013-04-09 16:51:51 FredEE has joined
2231 2013-04-09 16:51:53 <MC-Droid> That's harsh
2232 2013-04-09 16:51:58 <gmaxwell> MC-Droid: Sorry. :P
2233 2013-04-09 16:52:02 debiantoruser has joined
2234 2013-04-09 16:52:04 <MC-Droid> I'm not trying to piss over things
2235 2013-04-09 16:52:12 <gfinn> and will take about 2 seconds to transfer over the internet
2236 2013-04-09 16:52:12 <sipa> just a meta-comment about this sort of discussions: it's often not clean what timescale people are talking about
2237 2013-04-09 16:52:24 <sipa> and that really does make a difference
2238 2013-04-09 16:52:29 <gmaxwell> MC-Droid: Then give it a rest. _please_ my blood pressure begs you.
2239 2013-04-09 16:52:42 WKNiGHT- has joined
2240 2013-04-09 16:52:48 FredEE has quit (Client Quit)
2241 2013-04-09 16:52:51 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well, ok, a way to get trusted hash of utxo set...throw it in coinbase if you want
2242 2013-04-09 16:53:18 <sipa> that will be a very significant extra cost to full nodes... but i hope it's possible yes
2243 2013-04-09 16:53:34 <gmaxwell> What sipa says is absolutely right. If this is the realm of exabyte laptops there is absolutely no conflict. If it's "two months from now" thats another matter entirely. And there has been a lot of conflicting dialog on timescales.
2244 2013-04-09 16:53:39 <TD> sipa: that's true
2245 2013-04-09 16:54:04 grlpx has joined
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2247 2013-04-09 16:54:31 tvbcof has joined
2248 2013-04-09 16:54:49 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: ::nods::
2249 2013-04-09 16:56:07 vazakl has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2250 2013-04-09 16:57:02 MC-Droid has quit (Quit: Bye)
2251 2013-04-09 16:57:12 * BlueMatt ponders writing a utxo-merkle-calculating bitcoinj block store...oh well maybe when I have gobs of freetime...
2252 2013-04-09 16:57:14 WKNiGHT- has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2253 2013-04-09 16:57:48 <BlueMatt> TD: does bitcoinj have any concept of the v2 block number stuff?
2254 2013-04-09 16:58:07 <BlueMatt> block height, that is
2255 2013-04-09 16:58:09 <TD> height in the coinbase? not unless you wrote it. i haven't done any work on the full verification code
2256 2013-04-09 16:58:24 <BlueMatt> ok, didnt think so, Ill have to write it at some point
2257 2013-04-09 16:58:42 <TD> ok
2258 2013-04-09 16:59:05 <BlueMatt> maybe not till Im in .ch
2259 2013-04-09 16:59:08 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Making a really trivial MT-map implementation would be a good start. The utxo ideas stuff has a lot of open questions about which kind of tree should be used, some implementations would help.
2260 2013-04-09 16:59:25 testnode9_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2261 2013-04-09 16:59:28 <TD> BlueMatt: there's no hurry. full verification is advertised as experimental for a reason :)
2262 2013-04-09 16:59:44 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yes, thats my point, lots of abstract discussion and general agreement, need implementations to move forward
2263 2013-04-09 17:00:08 * gmaxwell removes bitcoinj from his mental list of belived to be complete full node implementations :(
2264 2013-04-09 17:00:22 <BlueMatt> hey, we have everything but v2 blocks
2265 2013-04-09 17:00:23 metabyte has quit ()
2266 2013-04-09 17:00:34 <sipa> BlueMatt: perhaps :)
2267 2013-04-09 17:00:55 <sipa> i trust you to be very aware of the protocol, but not enough to be sure there are no bigs at all
2268 2013-04-09 17:01:04 <sipa> bugs!
2269 2013-04-09 17:01:32 leakybuckit has joined
2270 2013-04-09 17:01:40 <TD> no bugs at all is hard. the good news is, some people do seem to be using it despite the dire health warnings.
2271 2013-04-09 17:01:41 <BlueMatt> sipa: heh, well Im not sure I trust anyone to to be sure there are no bugs at all, least of all myself
2272 2013-04-09 17:01:45 <TD> so we're finding out some of these bugs already
2273 2013-04-09 17:02:14 alphaguru has quit ()
2274 2013-04-09 17:02:19 <sipa> TD: the troublesome bugs are likely not those stumbled upon accidentally
2275 2013-04-09 17:02:32 <TD> indeed
2276 2013-04-09 17:02:41 <TD> but the commonplace ones need to get cleared first
2277 2013-04-09 17:02:41 <BlueMatt> sipa: yea, given more time testing would be a priority, but sadly no one around here has gobs of freetime
2278 2013-04-09 17:02:43 WKNiGHT- has joined
2279 2013-04-09 17:02:51 <gmaxwell> sipa: at there is some amount of persuasive evidence towards correctness: his test harness found bugs that were introduced in the reference client. :)
2280 2013-04-09 17:03:10 <sipa> example: bitsofproof uses the actual serialized size of the block to compare with limits instead of the *re*serialized size
2281 2013-04-09 17:03:31 <sipa> *used
2282 2013-04-09 17:03:39 <sipa> unsure whether it's still the cas
2283 2013-04-09 17:03:41 brson has joined
2284 2013-04-09 17:03:41 <gmaxwell> It doesn't still use it?
2285 2013-04-09 17:03:44 <TD> i predict a wave of security researchers make names for themselves finding chain splitting bugs in various implementations in future
2286 2013-04-09 17:03:53 <TD> it's the sort of work a particular kind of person enjoys
2287 2013-04-09 17:04:01 <gmaxwell> I think because the failures that produced were not transitive I couldn't convince grau to change it.
2288 2013-04-09 17:04:13 <BlueMatt> TD: gotta wait a few years before thats big-name enough I think
2289 2013-04-09 17:04:42 <grau> gmaxwell: what is the context?
2290 2013-04-09 17:04:59 <gmaxwell> TD: only once people recognize "consensus failure in a distributed consensus system" as an important kind of security bug. From the spec discussion on the forum it appears that this is _really_ unintutive to some people.
2291 2013-04-09 17:05:26 <TD> yeah. but that'll change over time
2292 2013-04-09 17:05:29 krullbear has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2293 2013-04-09 17:05:31 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, I fail to understand why people cant grok that...
2294 2013-04-09 17:06:03 <BlueMatt> by the time you're writing lots of code for bitcoin, Id expect one to have spent enough time to understand such things
2295 2013-04-09 17:06:10 <gmaxwell> grau: you measure the bits on the wire to compute the block size when deciding if a block is too big or not. The reference software reseralizes the block to compute the size. This means you may reject a block sent to you with some encoding while a reference client would not.
2296 2013-04-09 17:06:32 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2297 2013-04-09 17:06:41 jaequery has joined
2298 2013-04-09 17:07:19 * TD shakes his fist at netty
2299 2013-04-09 17:07:22 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I dunno, it's obvious enough to me, but I've spent a lot of time on compression where the decompressor has to _bit-exactly_ make the same decisions as the encoder, or you produce pure garbage output.
2300 2013-04-09 17:07:43 <TD> what kind of open source project only lists github, stack exchange and twitter under its "get involved" section
2301 2013-04-09 17:07:49 * BlueMatt hates netty most of all the bitcoinj stuff
2302 2013-04-09 17:08:00 <TD> it's crap. netty 4 seems to have solved most of the worst bogosities, though
2303 2013-04-09 17:08:04 taha has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2304 2013-04-09 17:08:07 <TD> at least judging from their almost non-existent initial documentation
2305 2013-04-09 17:08:12 <grau> gmaxwell: assuming one would want to exploit this, he would have to spend whole lot of computation just to fool this node. quite infeasible.
2306 2013-04-09 17:08:24 <TD> i wanted to get in touch with them to ask a question, but i see no way to do that short of hunting down random developers from github commit logs
2307 2013-04-09 17:08:41 <helo> would the "potential non-convergence" problem with litecoin be of equal concern with 4MB bitcoin blocks?
2308 2013-04-09 17:08:42 <sipa> grau: once block sizes limits are hit, it is trivial
2309 2013-04-09 17:08:44 <TD> grau: do you use any kind of networking library on top of java nio?
2310 2013-04-09 17:08:48 median^1 has joined
2311 2013-04-09 17:08:54 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: seems to me the argument "if you accept differently you will be on a different chain, this looks the same as a double-spend attack, hence something is broken" is pretty simple, but I dunno, Im sure I could look up times where I completely failed to understand these things for 6 months or so
2312 2013-04-09 17:09:11 skeledrew has joined
2313 2013-04-09 17:09:13 Sealy has quit (Quit: Sealy)
2314 2013-04-09 17:09:17 <grau> sipa: I am not sure it is, it has to be very differ only by serialization
2315 2013-04-09 17:09:24 <median^1> i have a question about clients. how can clients like multibit send and recieve btc when they don't download the full blockchain?
2316 2013-04-09 17:09:28 <grau> TD: use NIO directly
2317 2013-04-09 17:09:33 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yea, never make the mistake that other people's confusion is unreasonable simply because you didn't suffer that particular confusion. :)
2318 2013-04-09 17:09:36 keystroke has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2319 2013-04-09 17:09:53 <TD> grau: ok
2320 2013-04-09 17:10:02 <sipa> grau: if a block is 999999 bytes, i use a longer varint serialization for tje number of transactions
2321 2013-04-09 17:10:11 <sipa> before forwarding it to you
2322 2013-04-09 17:10:14 * TD is tempted to junk netty and do the same. though trying netty4 first is probably worth it
2323 2013-04-09 17:10:15 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well, it probably indicates a failure to document failure cases that people should be aware of...not that people fail to understand if they are clearly told the issue
2324 2013-04-09 17:10:16 Darin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2325 2013-04-09 17:10:36 <TD> median^1: they download a subset of the chain
2326 2013-04-09 17:10:40 <BlueMatt> TD: please, please kill netty
2327 2013-04-09 17:10:49 <grau> sipa: but you have to mine it as valid
2328 2013-04-09 17:10:50 <median^1> like only the tail?
2329 2013-04-09 17:10:53 <helo> median^1: to create a transaction, they just need the outputs for the transactions they are sending from.
2330 2013-04-09 17:10:54 <TD> median^1: and use different algorithms internally to avoid needing the entire chain data
2331 2013-04-09 17:10:55 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: nah, people don't even grasp that this is a risk.
2332 2013-04-09 17:11:02 <TD> BlueMatt: what is it about netty you hate the most?
2333 2013-04-09 17:11:10 <sipa> grau: i don't have to mine it; i start with a valid block
2334 2013-04-09 17:11:45 <BlueMatt> TD: mostly difficult debugging, it is not immediately clear by reading Peer source what is being called when and in what order because it all dissapears into netty and comes back out somewhere
2335 2013-04-09 17:11:52 <grau> sipe: so the difference is the serialization of the header?
2336 2013-04-09 17:11:59 <grau> sipa: i mean
2337 2013-04-09 17:12:05 <sipa> grau: yes
2338 2013-04-09 17:12:06 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I suspect a lot of them have just never had to get bit exact behavior from something non-trivial before. It's surprisingly hard.
2339 2013-04-09 17:12:16 <grau> ok, thanks for telling. me I fix
2340 2013-04-09 17:12:19 BTCOxygen is now known as 1!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/btcoxygen|BTCOxygen
2341 2013-04-09 17:12:40 <sipa> grau: i suppose the same is possible inside transactions for the number of inputs and outputs
2342 2013-04-09 17:12:40 <gmaxwell> grau: Now I wonder how this conversation failed when I had it with you before! :)
2343 2013-04-09 17:13:04 oiram has joined
2344 2013-04-09 17:13:07 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: how many people have you clearly explained that different behavior breaks things and they still reject the notion?
2345 2013-04-09 17:13:13 <sipa> grau: anyway, hashes and really any data that depends on serialization such as size is always done on the reserialized data
2346 2013-04-09 17:13:23 <grau> gmaxwell: I belive that I always tried to fix if I was pointed to a problem. if not I aplologize
2347 2013-04-09 17:13:49 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: in any case, people are inherently stupid...if any one person understood everything they would just be god, so...
2348 2013-04-09 17:14:00 <gmaxwell> grau: no need to apologize. Communication is a two way street. Not sure how I failed to express it to you before.
2349 2013-04-09 17:14:48 Bakz has joined
2350 2013-04-09 17:15:19 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well, stupid for a definition of stupid as "doesnt understand everything perfectly ;)"
2351 2013-04-09 17:15:56 <TD> BlueMatt: yeah, that's inherent to almost any framework though.
2352 2013-04-09 17:15:58 <grau> sipa: I reserialize transactions before hashing. Do you mean that even scripts are parsed and serialized again with shortest encoding ?
2353 2013-04-09 17:16:10 * TD isn't totally sure how much more code is required to do everything on top of nio directly.
2354 2013-04-09 17:16:17 <sipa> grau: scripts are technically byte arrays, i think
2355 2013-04-09 17:16:17 <TD> i should read graus code and find out :)
2356 2013-04-09 17:16:19 <BlueMatt> TD: yes, probably
2357 2013-04-09 17:16:20 <sipa> grau: so no
2358 2013-04-09 17:16:32 <grau> TD: halleuyah !
2359 2013-04-09 17:16:45 <grau> TD: I hoped I will make something useful some time for you
2360 2013-04-09 17:16:49 FredEE has joined
2361 2013-04-09 17:16:54 <TD> :)
2362 2013-04-09 17:17:02 * TD is not actually a java developer by trade
2363 2013-04-09 17:17:24 <TD> so, sometimes stuff like what the best libraries to use are, etc, i don't really know. we got Netty from devrandom
2364 2013-04-09 17:17:24 <sipa> grau: btw, if you're interested in testing, i'm working on a C library for very fast secp256k1... and BlueMatt wrote a JNI wrapper for it
2365 2013-04-09 17:17:34 <grau> sipa: ok, then I also need to revisit the serialization of block header
2366 2013-04-09 17:17:35 <TD> i don't know why he picked it over the alternatives. i just merged the code as it resolved some bugs we had.
2367 2013-04-09 17:17:54 <BlueMatt> TD: I just always feel lost when debugging peer stuff, so I usually give up and hack some crap together, hence why my Peer commits always tend to be ugly hacks...
2368 2013-04-09 17:18:18 twobitcoins_ has joined
2369 2013-04-09 17:18:26 <TD> BlueMatt: it's partly because it's not really cleanly integrated with the rest of the code. some stuff could be done cleaner. and also, netty 3 has absurdly confusing terminology (upstream/downstream). they fixed that in netty 4
2370 2013-04-09 17:18:33 raft has joined
2371 2013-04-09 17:18:47 <TD> anyway, the netty tutorial is short and makes things a lot clearer too
2372 2013-04-09 17:18:53 fillyscone has joined
2373 2013-04-09 17:19:05 topace has quit (2!~kvirc@ottawa-hs-69-20-234-37.s-ip.magma.ca|Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2374 2013-04-09 17:19:19 <grau> sipa: will that also replace the DER parsing or just sig checking?
2375 2013-04-09 17:19:50 <BlueMatt> TD: ok, good...yea the terminology has always confused me, that + the fact that the code to interface with netty appears to be all over the place and not in any given order (+/- lack of time to learn it)
2376 2013-04-09 17:19:53 <median^1> does the blockchain need to be synced before i can send and recieve btc?
2377 2013-04-09 17:19:57 <TD> BlueMatt: https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/wiki/Limitations
2378 2013-04-09 17:20:01 <median^1> on bitcoin-qt
2379 2013-04-09 17:20:01 <TD> BlueMatt: wanna suggest any additions to that page?
2380 2013-04-09 17:20:11 <BlueMatt> TD: but, again, its probably my fault for not spending time reading into netty
2381 2013-04-09 17:20:13 <sipa> grau: it also does DER and pubkey parsing, and is at least compatible with all "mistakes" existing in the prod or testnet chains
2382 2013-04-09 17:20:23 <TD> BlueMatt: the latter issue isn't really Netty's fault. it's more to do with the way netty was grafted onto a codebase that previously didn't use it.
2383 2013-04-09 17:20:30 <sipa> grau: but that's why i'm pushing for making non-standard DER encodings invalid :)
2384 2013-04-09 17:20:35 <TD> cleaning it up just never became the highest priority. as with all the other stupid quirks
2385 2013-04-09 17:20:35 <BlueMatt> TD: yep :(
2386 2013-04-09 17:20:40 <grau> sipa: then it is very interesting, since avoids an other source of break
2387 2013-04-09 17:21:00 <TD> median^1: if it's a new/fresh wallet, you can receive coins right away. they just won't confirm until you're fully synced.
2388 2013-04-09 17:21:01 <grau> sipa: sig performance per se is not a problem a t the moment
2389 2013-04-09 17:21:01 <sipa> grau: but it may currently be incompatible with OpenSSL is subtle unknown ways, unfortunately
2390 2013-04-09 17:21:18 <TD> yeah sipas code is more useful for the "50 years from now, bitcoin rules the world" kind of scenario
2391 2013-04-09 17:21:21 robocoin has joined
2392 2013-04-09 17:21:29 <grau> sipa: so is it a hardfork to pull it in?
2393 2013-04-09 17:21:33 <median^1> what about sending coins?
2394 2013-04-09 17:21:34 <sipa> grau: no
2395 2013-04-09 17:21:35 twobitcoins has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2396 2013-04-09 17:21:50 <grau> sipa: not that we know of you mean
2397 2013-04-09 17:21:52 <TD> median^1: you have to wait
2398 2013-04-09 17:21:52 <sipa> grau: it may need a soft fork to enforce strict DER encoding
2399 2013-04-09 17:21:54 <HM> sipa plans to rule the world. I should try to act surprised
2400 2013-04-09 17:22:00 testnode9 has joined
2401 2013-04-09 17:22:05 <BlueMatt> TD: in terms of full node stuff, not really
2402 2013-04-09 17:22:29 <muhoo> netty is, like many java things (bouncycastle, swing, etc) a complex beast
2403 2013-04-09 17:22:31 <sipa> grau: and only after that will using my library be safe (from that point of view, it still needs crypto review, obviously)
2404 2013-04-09 17:22:37 <helo> :3205
2405 2013-04-09 17:22:40 <helo> bahhhh
2406 2013-04-09 17:22:44 <grau> sipa: I am a big supporter of reducing freedom and complexity in this
2407 2013-04-09 17:22:59 nsillik_ has joined
2408 2013-04-09 17:23:03 <muhoo> i use aleph in clojure which is a wrapper around netty and quite pleasant
2409 2013-04-09 17:23:08 <sipa> grau: well relying on openssl for implicit network rules like this is imply unacceptable
2410 2013-04-09 17:23:17 defunctzombie_zz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2411 2013-04-09 17:23:19 pacpac has joined
2412 2013-04-09 17:23:19 <TD> a wrapper around netty which is a wrapper around nio which is a wrapper around select/epoll
2413 2013-04-09 17:23:19 Diapolis has joined
2414 2013-04-09 17:23:21 <TD> the mind boggles
2415 2013-04-09 17:23:33 <sipa> grau: it's a problem we've known about for long, but few seem interested in pushing for getting rid of it
2416 2013-04-09 17:23:36 <BlueMatt> sipa/TD: if I wrote a version of secp256k1 that uses openssl ecdsa and "does it the way bitcoind currently does" would ya'll consider merging the relevant parts
2417 2013-04-09 17:24:04 <grau> sipa: It is not a question of interest, but incentives.
2418 2013-04-09 17:24:05 <BlueMatt> muhoo: and I thought things going in and out of netty confused me...
2419 2013-04-09 17:24:09 someonesomewhere has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2420 2013-04-09 17:24:10 ToryJujube__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2421 2013-04-09 17:24:20 topace has joined
2422 2013-04-09 17:24:24 <BlueMatt> sipa: would be useful for testing too ;)
2423 2013-04-09 17:24:30 oiram_ has joined
2424 2013-04-09 17:24:31 ToryJujube_ has joined
2425 2013-04-09 17:24:34 <sipa> BlueMatt: meh, it'd be a trivial 5-line files
2426 2013-04-09 17:24:40 <grau> sipa: I hope that commercial interest now raises to a level I can hire and let things done even if not sexy
2427 2013-04-09 17:24:40 defunctzombie has joined
2428 2013-04-09 17:24:47 <BlueMatt> sipa: yes, hence why I offer to do it
2429 2013-04-09 17:24:59 <sipa> BlueMatt: i'm not really interested in such a pass-through mode... i want to get rid of openssl
2430 2013-04-09 17:25:20 <BlueMatt> yes, as are all of us, but...
2431 2013-04-09 17:25:21 <sipa> but then again it's a really trivial piece of code too
2432 2013-04-09 17:25:44 HM has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2433 2013-04-09 17:25:50 <BlueMatt> in any case, being able to run tests against openssl ecdsa would probably be useful in some cases
2434 2013-04-09 17:25:51 nsillik has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2435 2013-04-09 17:25:51 nsillik_ is now known as nsillik
2436 2013-04-09 17:26:03 <sipa> BlueMatt: put it in secp256k1.h i guess, with an #ifdef
2437 2013-04-09 17:26:07 <grau> trivial is an other word for uninteresting for most of us
2438 2013-04-09 17:26:07 MWNinja_ has joined
2439 2013-04-09 17:26:41 coolsa has joined
2440 2013-04-09 17:27:26 <sipa> haha
2441 2013-04-09 17:27:32 <TD> sipa: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170520.msg1782972#msg1782972
2442 2013-04-09 17:27:39 oiram__ has joined
2443 2013-04-09 17:27:51 <TD> sipa: i think he's right, it's possible to be slightly more optimal there
2444 2013-04-09 17:27:59 oiram has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2445 2013-04-09 17:28:12 HM has joined
2446 2013-04-09 17:28:24 <Scrat> sick, #bitcoin is now the 2nd channel on freenode
2447 2013-04-09 17:28:32 twobitcoins has joined
2448 2013-04-09 17:28:35 dvide has quit ()
2449 2013-04-09 17:28:45 <sipa> TD: i think i agree
2450 2013-04-09 17:28:47 <BlueMatt> Scrat: old news, -otc used to be #2 like 2 years ago
2451 2013-04-09 17:28:49 oiram_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2452 2013-04-09 17:29:04 <sipa> TD: i wrote that code basically by doing a one-to-one translation of the algorithm in the SEC specification
2453 2013-04-09 17:29:09 <TD> i just posted that
2454 2013-04-09 17:29:16 <Scrat> BlueMatt: heh ok
2455 2013-04-09 17:29:18 <TD> and i did a translation of your code alongside reading the sec docs too
2456 2013-04-09 17:29:22 <TD> so no surprise they are the same
2457 2013-04-09 17:30:15 <Diablo-D3> TD: didnt google write their own malloc impl?
2458 2013-04-09 17:30:23 <TD> tcmalloc
2459 2013-04-09 17:30:32 <Diablo-D3> I bet my malloc is fatser.
2460 2013-04-09 17:30:34 <Diablo-D3> *faster
2461 2013-04-09 17:30:49 <Diablo-D3> then again, I wasn't silly enough to include thread terrorism in mine.
2462 2013-04-09 17:30:49 <TD> could be
2463 2013-04-09 17:31:02 someonesomewhere has joined
2464 2013-04-09 17:31:08 <BlueMatt> TD: lol
2465 2013-04-09 17:31:18 twobitcoins_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2466 2013-04-09 17:31:33 <Scrat> d3malloc is best malloc
2467 2013-04-09 17:32:43 TD has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2468 2013-04-09 17:32:46 <Diablo-D3> Scrat: damned straight
2469 2013-04-09 17:32:50 <Diablo-D3> I scared TD away =/
2470 2013-04-09 17:34:17 Phraust has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2471 2013-04-09 17:34:39 <skinnkavaj> sipa: is this true? http://www.businessinsider.com/quantum-computers-and-bitcoin-2013-4
2472 2013-04-09 17:34:48 Phraust has joined
2473 2013-04-09 17:34:52 <skinnkavaj> "Not Even Super-Powerful Quantum Computers Pose A Threat To Bitcoin"
2474 2013-04-09 17:35:30 * BlueMatt doesnt have a system with ec-stripped openssl, easiest way to test for its presence in a sh fragment?
2475 2013-04-09 17:35:32 bigtip has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2476 2013-04-09 17:35:54 oiram__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2477 2013-04-09 17:36:54 JustinH_ has joined
2478 2013-04-09 17:37:01 Jonathan_L has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2479 2013-04-09 17:37:05 <JustinH_> Hello
2480 2013-04-09 17:37:19 <JustinH_> New to bitcoin completely...any advice for beginner?
2481 2013-04-09 17:37:20 <HM> skinnkavaj: the signature scheme used by bitcoin is vulnerable to quantum computing
2482 2013-04-09 17:37:46 <skinnkavaj> JustinH_: ask in #bitcoin
2483 2013-04-09 17:38:29 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: that page is quoting me, in fact.
2484 2013-04-09 17:38:52 <gmaxwell> HM: The thing he links to links to a reasonably complete answer.
2485 2013-04-09 17:39:43 <Diablo-D3> [11:12:57] <HM> or just swap out for a tree structure
2486 2013-04-09 17:39:56 <Diablo-D3> hm: its technically a tree
2487 2013-04-09 17:40:14 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: thats basically how autoconf works...
2488 2013-04-09 17:40:14 <HM> gmaxwell: there are practical signature schemes that can be used for transactions that are quantum resistant?
2489 2013-04-09 17:40:19 <gmaxwell> HM: sure.
2490 2013-04-09 17:40:24 <gmaxwell> HM: lamport.
2491 2013-04-09 17:40:40 <Diablo-D3> hm: its a struct with left/right for a double linked list
2492 2013-04-09 17:40:42 <HM> the signatures for lamport are humungous
2493 2013-04-09 17:40:46 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yep, and if sipa were using autoconf I would have looked it up in autoconf ;)
2494 2013-04-09 17:40:57 <gmaxwell> HM: 16kbytes isn't a non-starter.
2495 2013-04-09 17:41:02 <BlueMatt> but Ill just test compilation and linking and see what happens
2496 2013-04-09 17:41:13 <HM> i guess
2497 2013-04-09 17:41:15 <Diablo-D3> hm: but Im doing a down right tree for sorting it when the pages are used
2498 2013-04-09 17:41:31 <pgvoorhees> Is there a coding style guide that is being followed in the main bitcoin code?
2499 2013-04-09 17:41:38 <gmaxwell> HM: they're also insanely fast.
2500 2013-04-09 17:41:41 <pgvoorhees> (sorry for the off topic question)
2501 2013-04-09 17:41:49 lodse has joined
2502 2013-04-09 17:41:58 ovidiusoft has joined
2503 2013-04-09 17:42:15 <gmaxwell> pgvoorhees: doc/coding.txt
2504 2013-04-09 17:42:34 JustinH_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2505 2013-04-09 17:42:34 <pgvoorhees> gmaxwell: awesome. Thanks
2506 2013-04-09 17:42:38 <Diablo-D3> hm: so its sorta like a skip list already (its part of a slab malloc, and it splits pages into pairs, so the left page always has the address of the parent)
2507 2013-04-09 17:42:57 q754 has joined
2508 2013-04-09 17:42:58 <HM> Diablo-D3: a buddy allocator?
2509 2013-04-09 17:43:02 <Diablo-D3> hm: kinda.
2510 2013-04-09 17:44:03 <Diablo-D3> hm: but if I keep the used pages in order as a single linked list (through the right pointer, left pointers go down through left pages of the same address) I still have an O(n) search
2511 2013-04-09 17:44:32 grlpx has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2512 2013-04-09 17:44:42 <Diablo-D3> which isnt really a problem until I have a shitload of pages
2513 2013-04-09 17:45:00 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2514 2013-04-09 17:45:18 lodse has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2515 2013-04-09 17:45:51 <HM> Diablo-D3: so ditch the linked list? :S
2516 2013-04-09 17:45:56 Darin has joined
2517 2013-04-09 17:46:20 <Diablo-D3> hm: cant, need it for the freed page list.
2518 2013-04-09 17:46:55 <HM> eh
2519 2013-04-09 17:47:02 <HM> doesn't that just have to be in order?
2520 2013-04-09 17:47:04 <Diablo-D3> pairs cant be truly freed until both are free, so they're shoved into a list to either be reused or truly freed
2521 2013-04-09 17:47:12 <Diablo-D3> the free list ISNT in order
2522 2013-04-09 17:47:15 <Diablo-D3> nor does it need to be
2523 2013-04-09 17:47:19 <HM> right
2524 2013-04-09 17:47:39 <Diablo-D3> newly freed pages are put at the head to optimize for cache usage
2525 2013-04-09 17:47:49 <HM> right
2526 2013-04-09 17:47:58 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Sayonara)
2527 2013-04-09 17:48:03 <HM> what's the problem exactly?
2528 2013-04-09 17:48:14 <HM> you want to be able to find a pages partner quickly?
2529 2013-04-09 17:48:21 <Diablo-D3> no, I can do that for free
2530 2013-04-09 17:48:27 <HM> with a mask, yeah
2531 2013-04-09 17:48:40 <HM> you want to know if a partner page is free quickly?
2532 2013-04-09 17:48:52 lodse has joined
2533 2013-04-09 17:48:54 <Diablo-D3> they're allocated into a continuous block, so I just use the address of the page handle
2534 2013-04-09 17:49:13 <Diablo-D3> no, I can do partner page in use detection fine
2535 2013-04-09 17:49:19 <Diablo-D3> I just need to be able to FIND the page quickly
2536 2013-04-09 17:49:30 <Diablo-D3> if someone does free, they're giving me an address not a page
2537 2013-04-09 17:49:33 <HM> use a treap?
2538 2013-04-09 17:49:41 <Diablo-D3> a what?
2539 2013-04-09 17:49:59 <HM> there are tree structures keep recently used items at the root
2540 2013-04-09 17:50:38 <HM> got to go afk for a while
2541 2013-04-09 17:50:40 <HM> bbiaw
2542 2013-04-09 17:51:03 drizztbsd has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2543 2013-04-09 17:51:55 bigti[ has joined
2544 2013-04-09 17:51:55 bigti[ is now known as bigtip
2545 2013-04-09 17:52:12 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: That CIP stuff is what would let you implement this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/why_hash_locked The idea is that you run some program, and can prove (with high confidence) to a third party that you ran it faithfully and the output you got is the output you're giving them.
2546 2013-04-09 17:52:39 <Diablo-D3> hm: yeah THAT isnt what I need. a page will be freed at any time randomly given how programs are often coded
2547 2013-04-09 17:52:43 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: cool. Can you contact them and start a conversation? Too much on my plate....
2548 2013-04-09 17:52:49 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: Yep. Can do.
2549 2013-04-09 17:53:08 <Diablo-D3> hm: just need to be able to find the page as fast as possible, I think I can do a skip list that can skip large chunks of it quickly
2550 2013-04-09 17:54:34 da2ce7_d has joined
2551 2013-04-09 17:55:11 mercerist has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2552 2013-04-09 17:55:14 <Diablo-D3> actually, if I just turn the tree into a normal binary search tree and deploy skips on top of that
2553 2013-04-09 17:55:15 <sipa> BlueMatt: test whether a mini c program with #include <openssl/crypto.h> works, but <openssl/ec.h> doesn't
2554 2013-04-09 17:55:16 <Diablo-D3> it might be pretty fast
2555 2013-04-09 17:56:16 <sipa> BlueMatt: have you seen my mini configure script?
2556 2013-04-09 17:56:34 <sipa> jgarzik may or may not be trying to convert it to autoconf, but for now, it'll do
2557 2013-04-09 17:56:53 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2558 2013-04-09 17:57:26 Grouver has joined
2559 2013-04-09 17:59:55 <q754> I just downloaded the latest version of bitcoin-qt and it's there's A LOT of HDD activity. Is it supposed to kill the hard drive? I have 16GB of RAM and it's not using it at all. Is this normal?
2560 2013-04-09 18:00:17 <q754> It only uses 340MB of RAM.
2561 2013-04-09 18:00:19 ColinT has joined
2562 2013-04-09 18:00:37 <sipa> q754: pass -dbcache=N to have it use more memory (N is in megabytes)
2563 2013-04-09 18:00:38 bolapara_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2564 2013-04-09 18:01:04 <q754> Total n00b here. How do i do that?
2565 2013-04-09 18:01:04 <sipa> and yes, it will still need to write the downloaded chain to disk, which is some activity
2566 2013-04-09 18:01:14 <sipa> what OS are you on?
2567 2013-04-09 18:01:23 <q754> Windoze 7.
2568 2013-04-09 18:01:24 <EvilPete> q754: my unix systems don't even hit disk, but OSX thrashes the drives even though the machine has 16G ram
2569 2013-04-09 18:01:37 <HM> Diablo-D3: a skip list has the same query properties as a tree
2570 2013-04-09 18:01:38 sebicas has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2571 2013-04-09 18:01:45 <HM> both are O(log n)
2572 2013-04-09 18:01:56 <HM> the only advantage is you can customise the levels and such
2573 2013-04-09 18:01:59 Zomdifros has joined
2574 2013-04-09 18:02:35 <Diablo-D3> hm: well thats the thing, I have additional data that I can just jump through the list faster
2575 2013-04-09 18:02:53 <q754> I mean, couldn' the bitoin-qt see that the system has loads of RAM and do those processes in RAM and only after that write it to the HDD in no more than once in 2 minutes?
2576 2013-04-09 18:02:59 <q754> *couldn't
2577 2013-04-09 18:03:32 Darin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2578 2013-04-09 18:03:45 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2579 2013-04-09 18:03:54 caedes has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2580 2013-04-09 18:04:05 <q754> I don't see the point putting the HDD under so much pressure when there is no need to do that.
2581 2013-04-09 18:04:08 <Diablo-D3> hm: Im allocating slabs piecemeal (in multiples of 16mb), so if I keep the pages that head the slabs in order in a list, I can scan the list until Ive gone too far and then jump into the binary search tree from there
2582 2013-04-09 18:04:21 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: poke
2583 2013-04-09 18:04:21 <sipa> q754: shouldn't be very high pressure
2584 2013-04-09 18:04:28 twobitcoins has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2585 2013-04-09 18:04:41 <sipa> q754: compared to 0.7 and earlier version, which continuously needed disk access to verify things
2586 2013-04-09 18:04:55 <sipa> q754: now it just has to write blocks and updated chainstate sometimes
2587 2013-04-09 18:04:56 twobitcoins has joined
2588 2013-04-09 18:05:20 <Diablo-D3> hm: if I have thousands of pages, and a few hundred on each slab, I could easily skip hundreds at a time
2589 2013-04-09 18:05:34 Zomdifros has quit (Client Quit)
2590 2013-04-09 18:06:08 <sipa> q754: but detecting how much memory is free is generally hard on different platforms, and detecting how much a user is willing to spare is even harder (it may differ a lot between servers and desktop systems, for example)
2591 2013-04-09 18:06:09 <q754> Well, on my system it is constantly accessing the disk.
2592 2013-04-09 18:06:10 <EvilPete> q754: what's your read vs write load? bitcoin-qt lets the OS cache file files, the reads should be being largely cached by the OS.
2593 2013-04-09 18:06:11 bigti[ has joined
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2595 2013-04-09 18:06:28 <sipa> q754: well if it's constantly downloading blocks it needs to constantly write those blocks to disk :)
2596 2013-04-09 18:06:29 bigti[ is now known as bigtip
2597 2013-04-09 18:06:48 <sipa> but that shouldn't be much disk load
2598 2013-04-09 18:06:53 <sipa> just continuous
2599 2013-04-09 18:07:12 <q754> Process Hacker is showing about 15MB of reads and 10MB of writes every second.
2600 2013-04-09 18:07:15 parasciidic has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2601 2013-04-09 18:07:18 <EvilPete> q754: bitcoin-qt thrashes my OSX machine constantly while filling for reasons that I don't understand. Something is causing it to not be cached properly. But that doesn't help you on windows.
2602 2013-04-09 18:07:26 <q754> ... solely from bitcoin-qt
2603 2013-04-09 18:07:53 <sipa> q754:, that's really high
2604 2013-04-09 18:08:05 <sipa> q754: can you try whether passing -dbcache=1000 makes a difference?
2605 2013-04-09 18:08:21 <q754> Now i'ts 400KB of writes and 300KB of reads.
2606 2013-04-09 18:08:28 BR-afk has joined
2607 2013-04-09 18:08:31 <q754> But its still accessing it every single second.
2608 2013-04-09 18:08:31 <sipa> that sounds better
2609 2013-04-09 18:08:36 <q754> Which I don't understand at all.
2610 2013-04-09 18:08:39 <sipa> well it's downloading blocks!
2611 2013-04-09 18:08:46 <sipa> it needs to put them somewhere
2612 2013-04-09 18:08:49 polrpaul has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2613 2013-04-09 18:08:51 <q754> But could it not keep it in RAM for a few minutes?
2614 2013-04-09 18:09:00 <sipa> your OS should do that yes
2615 2013-04-09 18:09:14 <sipa> but it'd still write them
2616 2013-04-09 18:09:18 <q754> It's preventing other programs from accessing the disk.
2617 2013-04-09 18:09:29 <q754> If it's hoarding that resource.
2618 2013-04-09 18:09:34 <sipa> it's not
2619 2013-04-09 18:09:43 <EvilPete> q754: It relies on the OS file system cache.
2620 2013-04-09 18:09:43 sebicas has joined
2621 2013-04-09 18:10:06 <q754> So it's different under Ubuntu for example?
2622 2013-04-09 18:10:07 <sipa> (well, if it's writing 15 MB/s, it probably is putting pressure on your disk, that shouldn't be)
2623 2013-04-09 18:10:35 <EvilPete> q754: windows has different ideas about what is important to cache compared to linux.
2624 2013-04-09 18:10:46 BR-afk is now known as Blackreign
2625 2013-04-09 18:11:00 <sipa> but just writing all the time isn't a problem; it's just simple sequential writes of the block data
2626 2013-04-09 18:11:08 <sipa> that doesn't mean it's killing the disk
2627 2013-04-09 18:11:52 <q754> Torrent programs use RAM as a cache very efficiently.
2628 2013-04-09 18:12:03 <q754> I couldn't imagine if they had to write and read every single second.
2629 2013-04-09 18:12:31 <EvilPete> this isn't a torrent program.
2630 2013-04-09 18:12:43 <q754> I know but it's also based on a P2P network in terms of the blockchain distribution.
2631 2013-04-09 18:12:52 <EvilPete> and if you have memory hog torrent programs running then that explain why the OS can't cache the file system
2632 2013-04-09 18:13:49 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2633 2013-04-09 18:13:49 <q754> Well, I don't mind of bitcoin-qt was using 3GB of RAM on my system, because RAM is dirt cheap these days,
2634 2013-04-09 18:13:57 <sipa> so set -dbcache=3000
2635 2013-04-09 18:14:09 <q754> as long as it doesn't use the hard drive that much.
2636 2013-04-09 18:14:21 <sipa> q754: so what happens is that blocks being downloaded are pretty much written to disk immediately; i'm planning to change that a bit so they get cached in the program a bit, but they'll still be written pretty much immediately, simply because it's data that it won't be needing for a long time
2637 2013-04-09 18:14:27 Jonathan_L has joined
2638 2013-04-09 18:14:44 <sipa> q754: the actually relevant data is entirely cached in memory during syncing, and only dumped to disk once it gets too big
2639 2013-04-09 18:14:48 Gnaf has joined
2640 2013-04-09 18:14:51 o2 has quit (Disconnected by services)
2641 2013-04-09 18:14:52 o2_ has joined
2642 2013-04-09 18:14:57 <sipa> q754: that may have been the peek of 10MB/s you saw
2643 2013-04-09 18:15:12 <q754> I guess I could get an SSD, but I'm afraid that bitcoin-qt will kill it with constant writes every single second. :(
2644 2013-04-09 18:15:26 Mr_G has joined
2645 2013-04-09 18:15:31 <q754> I read that SSD's have a limited number of writes.
2646 2013-04-09 18:15:37 <EvilPete> q754: it won't do that once it has synced.. it almost stops IO entirely
2647 2013-04-09 18:15:56 <q754> But if you reinstall the OS then you need to re-download the blockchain usually.
2648 2013-04-09 18:16:31 <wumpus> not if you back up your home dir...
2649 2013-04-09 18:16:59 <q754> Well true.
2650 2013-04-09 18:17:23 <EvilPete> So.. "<q754> ... because RAM is dirt cheap these days," then just get more ram so your OS can cache better.
2651 2013-04-09 18:17:25 <q754> I guess 99% of the blockchain comes from SatoshiDice.
2652 2013-04-09 18:17:37 <sipa> q754: when you increase the database cache size, the update of chainstate data on disk is done much less frequently
2653 2013-04-09 18:17:38 n5 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2654 2013-04-09 18:17:52 <q754> Oh ok, thanks!
2655 2013-04-09 18:17:59 bolapara_ has joined
2656 2013-04-09 18:18:23 <sipa> q754: to do so, if you have a shortcut somewhere to bitcoin-qt, edit it, and add -dbcache=3000 to it command line at the end
2657 2013-04-09 18:18:46 <sipa> on windows that may actually be a bit high, since it's only a 32-bit process
2658 2013-04-09 18:18:53 <sipa> but 1000 should already change a lot
2659 2013-04-09 18:19:16 <q754> Thanks!
2660 2013-04-09 18:19:31 <EvilPete> q754: regardless of the -dbcache settings, while filling it is going to periodically access the data it has written. If your windows system doesn't have 8GB *free* right at the start before filling then it's going to run out and start thrashing the disk
2661 2013-04-09 18:19:43 Lord999 has joined
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2666 2013-04-09 18:20:47 <q754> I think there should be an auto-detect system for n00bs like me. Upon installation of bitcoin-qt, a box should appear that has two choices: 1) Use the RAM and write to the HDD only once in 2 minutes. 2) Never mind, trash the HDD
2667 2013-04-09 18:20:54 <Lord999> Woot?
2668 2013-04-09 18:20:57 <q754> ... when the system has a lot of RAM.
2669 2013-04-09 18:21:27 <Lord999> Earn some BTC (just remove spaces) ht tp://goo.gl /Kd7yT?
2670 2013-04-09 18:21:41 <EvilPete> q754: bitcoin-qt is a 32 bit process on windows. The process can only use 4GB max and the blockchain is 8GB.. it can't live in ram.
2671 2013-04-09 18:21:47 <sipa> Lord999: please take that elsewhere
2672 2013-04-09 18:22:13 <sipa> EvilPete: it also doesn't _need_ the blockchain at all (almost)
2673 2013-04-09 18:22:20 <sipa> EvilPete: so there's no point in keeping it in RAM even
2674 2013-04-09 18:22:30 <BlueMatt> sipa: ahh, ok thats what I was looking for, I was just gonna try to link and test there; yes, hence the question
2675 2013-04-09 18:22:45 viperhr1 has joined
2676 2013-04-09 18:22:46 <q754> EvilPete: I'm not talking about "living in RAM", but performing some of the same operations in RAM and only writing the end result to the HDD every once in a while.
2677 2013-04-09 18:23:07 <sipa> BlueMatt: even better, call a function from the EC header, so linking will fail if the library doesn't have it (but the headers do)
2678 2013-04-09 18:23:15 <sipa> q754: that's *exactly* what it does
2679 2013-04-09 18:23:23 <sipa> q754: but not for the block data, as it doesn't need that
2680 2013-04-09 18:23:51 <q754> I guess I'm too much of a noob to understand. :(
2681 2013-04-09 18:24:11 <EvilPete> sipa: that's something I always meant to figure out.. how does it track spent / unspent? by tracking unspent outputs as it goes?
2682 2013-04-09 18:24:26 <sipa> EvilPete: that's what 0.7 and before did
2683 2013-04-09 18:24:37 <sipa> EvilPete: 0.8 just as an explicit separate database of just the unspent outputs
2684 2013-04-09 18:24:43 <sipa> EvilPete: see the chainstate/ directory
2685 2013-04-09 18:24:51 jMyles has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2686 2013-04-09 18:24:54 Darin has joined
2687 2013-04-09 18:24:57 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: for the record, Im also fairly against uneconomical tx blocking (atleast until we refactor the priority/fee algorithms)
2688 2013-04-09 18:25:07 <Lord999> Earn some BTC (just remove space between 't' and 't') ht tp://goo.gl/Kd7yT?
2689 2013-04-09 18:25:11 <q754> Ok.... now the client is not responding....
2690 2013-04-09 18:25:11 mercerist has joined
2691 2013-04-09 18:25:20 <BlueMatt> sipa: ack
2692 2013-04-09 18:25:22 <EvilPete> sipa: and the rev* is for rollback of that database if there's a reorg?
2693 2013-04-09 18:25:34 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2694 2013-04-09 18:25:36 <sipa> EvilPete: bingo
2695 2013-04-09 18:25:56 <sipa> EvilPete: blocks are 'patches' to the chainstate, undo files are reverse patches
2696 2013-04-09 18:27:25 jsfsn has joined
2697 2013-04-09 18:28:11 <EvilPete> fwiw, I can do a reindex=1 in about an hour on a 16G unix machine, but the OSX client takes about 30 hours of disk thrashing on a similar machine. I have suspicions that the later versions of OSX have some rather degenerate cache behavior.
2698 2013-04-09 18:29:12 <Lord999> Want to earn some BTC? http://www.satoshi-karoshi.com/?r=8375
2699 2013-04-09 18:29:13 ColinT has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2700 2013-04-09 18:29:20 <denisx> EvilPete: I'm saying that for years now! ;)
2701 2013-04-09 18:29:36 <BlueMatt> EvilPete: you're surprised?
2702 2013-04-09 18:29:50 <sipa> EvilPete: try with a high -dbcache on the OSX machine
2703 2013-04-09 18:29:57 <sipa> EvilPete: i wonder if it'd make a difference
2704 2013-04-09 18:30:52 <q754> Does bitcoin have any protection against ddos attacks from the likes of SatoshiDice?
2705 2013-04-09 18:31:14 <gavinandresen> EvilPete: are you a c++ mac developer? we need somebody good to track down problems like the "slow sync on OSX" problem
2706 2013-04-09 18:31:32 <sipa> q754: yes, against uneconomical ddos attacks
2707 2013-04-09 18:31:46 <sipa> q754: but SD players are prepared to pay huge amounts in fees, which makes it harder
2708 2013-04-09 18:32:11 fillyscone has quit (Quit: ThrashIRC v2.8 sic populo comunicated)
2709 2013-04-09 18:33:54 richcollins has joined
2710 2013-04-09 18:34:11 <richcollins> Why am I getting the "this transaction is over the size limit" message on all of my sends?
2711 2013-04-09 18:34:27 <richcollins> for bitcoint-qt
2712 2013-04-09 18:34:32 <BlueMatt> because you have lots of tiny outputs in your wallet
2713 2013-04-09 18:34:48 <richcollins> BlueMatt: Tiny outputs in terms of BTC?
2714 2013-04-09 18:34:54 <BlueMatt> been playing satoshidice with its 0.00000001 outputs?
2715 2013-04-09 18:34:58 normanrichards has quit ()
2716 2013-04-09 18:34:59 <richcollins> no
2717 2013-04-09 18:35:04 <richcollins> I'm trying to send 25BTC
2718 2013-04-09 18:35:06 <richcollins> not a small amount
2719 2013-04-09 18:35:13 <sipa> amount doesn't have much to do with it
2720 2013-04-09 18:35:22 <sipa> it depends on how many input coins you need
2721 2013-04-09 18:35:22 <BlueMatt> its more about the outputs you have in your wallets that are being spent to create 25
2722 2013-04-09 18:35:27 <Luke-Jr> sipa: well, it does..
2723 2013-04-09 18:35:28 <BlueMatt> lots of mining outputs of 0.01 or so?
2724 2013-04-09 18:35:35 <richcollins> BlueMatt: Nope
2725 2013-04-09 18:35:35 <sipa> if that's hundreds, the transaction becoems large
2726 2013-04-09 18:35:39 <richcollins> relatively new wallet
2727 2013-04-09 18:35:41 <richcollins> not many outputs
2728 2013-04-09 18:35:44 <Luke-Jr> richcollins: it's like trying to pay a $5000 invoice with $1 bills
2729 2013-04-09 18:36:25 <richcollins> I did send 0.0001 with a .0005 tx fee 1 time just to test something
2730 2013-04-09 18:36:33 <richcollins> but I don't have many sends
2731 2013-04-09 18:36:37 <richcollins> and they aren't very small
2732 2013-04-09 18:36:39 <Luke-Jr> it's your recieves that matter
2733 2013-04-09 18:36:51 whizter has joined
2734 2013-04-09 18:36:54 <richcollins> I imported a private key that had a .0001 receive
2735 2013-04-09 18:36:55 <sipa> Luke-Jr: and change
2736 2013-04-09 18:36:56 <q754> What happens when the electrum servers die? Would my wallet become unusable?
2737 2013-04-09 18:36:57 <richcollins> but just that one
2738 2013-04-09 18:37:13 <richcollins> could it be triggered just that one?
2739 2013-04-09 18:37:17 <Luke-Jr> q754: no, just use another one
2740 2013-04-09 18:37:34 <BlueMatt> richcollins: if you add up all the transactions that you have received until you get to 25 BTC, does that require lots of transactions?
2741 2013-04-09 18:37:43 <q754> Luke-Jr: What do you mean? Another program?
2742 2013-04-09 18:37:44 <richcollins> BlueMatt: No
2743 2013-04-09 18:37:49 aBs0lut30 has joined
2744 2013-04-09 18:37:54 <aBs0lut30> I got one for the more tech savy guys out there... I understand why GPU mining is faster than CPU mining... BUT, one of the hangups on the CPU is that on an i7 it takes around 1k cycles to run the hash, but has anyone looked into Intel's FASTSha256 stuff? they claim to be able to run a sha256 in 11 cycles...
2745 2013-04-09 18:37:57 <Luke-Jr> q754: no, another Electrum server
2746 2013-04-09 18:38:00 <Luke-Jr> q754: or run your own
2747 2013-04-09 18:38:11 <q754> Luke-Jr: But what if the goverment takes them all down?
2748 2013-04-09 18:38:12 jMyles has joined
2749 2013-04-09 18:38:28 <Luke-Jr> q754: which government?
2750 2013-04-09 18:38:41 <Luke-Jr> q754: I suggest finding a server in your own country, or even better running your own
2751 2013-04-09 18:38:43 <q754> I don't know, just a possibility.
2752 2013-04-09 18:38:56 <Luke-Jr> I also don't suggest using Bitcoin if it's illegalized
2753 2013-04-09 18:39:09 <richcollins> anyway don't have any options I suppose
2754 2013-04-09 18:39:10 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
2755 2013-04-09 18:39:28 <BlueMatt> aBs0lut30: cycles/byte is very different from cycles per double-hash of bitcoin
2756 2013-04-09 18:40:04 <q754> Ok, so both bitcoin-qt and electrum are not very convenient and safe.... what is left here, multibit? Is that any good?
2757 2013-04-09 18:40:17 Diapolis has joined
2758 2013-04-09 18:40:17 <aBs0lut30> true, but when you are talking about going from 900 cycles to 11, that's a major speed boost...
2759 2013-04-09 18:40:27 <BlueMatt> aBs0lut30: ehh, no
2760 2013-04-09 18:40:36 <sipa> q754: bitcoin-qt and electrum are pretty much opposites regarding security assumptions
2761 2013-04-09 18:41:26 <BlueMatt> aBs0lut30: naive sha256 implementations that arent optimized for bitcoin can do like 16, so you are comparing different numbers somewhere
2762 2013-04-09 18:41:29 iceblue has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2763 2013-04-09 18:41:56 pizzacat has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2764 2013-04-09 18:42:05 <_dr> aBs0lut30: they claim to be able to run a sha256 in 11 cycles...
2765 2013-04-09 18:42:16 <_dr> that's ridiculous
2766 2013-04-09 18:42:20 <q754> If I put all my monyes to blockchain.info and make a backup of my wallet, can they still run away with my moneys?
2767 2013-04-09 18:42:26 iceblue has joined
2768 2013-04-09 18:42:35 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
2769 2013-04-09 18:42:46 <_dr> aBs0lut30: do you have any info on that?
2770 2013-04-09 18:42:47 <aBs0lut30> _dr: yes they do... using some of the lesser used instructions...
2771 2013-04-09 18:42:52 <aBs0lut30> sure, let me dig up the pdf
2772 2013-04-09 18:42:55 <BlueMatt> aBs0lut30: no, they dont claim that
2773 2013-04-09 18:42:56 Jonathan_L has left ()
2774 2013-04-09 18:42:57 <BlueMatt> _dr: ^
2775 2013-04-09 18:43:02 <BlueMatt> they claim 11 cycles/byte
2776 2013-04-09 18:43:06 <_dr> aBs0lut30: lesser used instructions?
2777 2013-04-09 18:43:06 ColinT has joined
2778 2013-04-09 18:43:31 <BlueMatt> q754: they implement client-side encryption and signing (is what they say), but they can chose to change their code at any moment and just upload your privkeys
2779 2013-04-09 18:43:38 <aBs0lut30> actually if memory serves they claim 11 cycles per hash
2780 2013-04-09 18:43:47 <_dr> like they 'hiddencmpshainhardware' instruction?
2781 2013-04-09 18:43:55 <BlueMatt> http://download.intel.com/embedded/processor/whitepaper/327457.pdf
2782 2013-04-09 18:44:02 <q754> BlueMatt: Thanks, I guess they can't be trusted then. :(
2783 2013-04-09 18:44:04 <HM> Isn't the construction of SHA-256 iterative?
2784 2013-04-09 18:44:05 <BlueMatt> "buffer at the rate of ~11.5 cycles/byte1"
2785 2013-04-09 18:44:21 <HM> i'm not sure how they could accomplish that
2786 2013-04-09 18:44:25 <_dr> aBs0lut30: memory? what do you need memory for in sha?
2787 2013-04-09 18:44:40 <aBs0lut30> no... if my memory serves about what I was reading
2788 2013-04-09 18:44:46 <_dr> aBs0lut30: ah :)
2789 2013-04-09 18:44:59 <HM> cycles/byte isn't the be all and end all either
2790 2013-04-09 18:45:02 jMyles has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2791 2013-04-09 18:45:06 <BlueMatt> _dr: no the sha256usingmagiccoprocessor instruction
2792 2013-04-09 18:45:11 <_dr> just wait for ivy bridge ep
2793 2013-04-09 18:45:23 <HM> i could make a processor that did sha-256 in one cycle :P but it might run at 1 Hz
2794 2013-04-09 18:45:40 <_dr> it'll have avx2, they you'll get an astonishing speedup of 2x with cpu mining!!
2795 2013-04-09 18:45:46 <_dr> watch out asics!
2796 2013-04-09 18:46:09 <HM> the Crypto++ library pegs a 2.2 Ghz AMD Opteron at 16 cycles/byte and the 3 Ghz Pentium 4 Prescott at 23 cycles/byte
2797 2013-04-09 18:46:14 <HM> the difference is marginal
2798 2013-04-09 18:46:42 <_dr> if you want the fastest sha possible go to intel, download icc for students, download their crypto lib and benchmark that
2799 2013-04-09 18:46:56 sect0r has joined
2800 2013-04-09 18:47:01 sect0r has left ("Leaving")
2801 2013-04-09 18:47:18 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2802 2013-04-09 18:47:45 gfinn has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2803 2013-04-09 18:47:59 <HM> hmm
2804 2013-04-09 18:48:12 samholmes has joined
2805 2013-04-09 18:48:13 K1NN6 has joined
2806 2013-04-09 18:48:24 twobitcoins has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2807 2013-04-09 18:48:29 Burninate has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2808 2013-04-09 18:48:34 <HM> if you guys were indexing hostnames for peer management, how would you do it? resolve to IP and index by IP? what if a hostname has multiple A records?
2809 2013-04-09 18:48:39 <_pr> 11.5 cycles/sec for >256 byte input data buffer & AVX1(HT) .. best case
2810 2013-04-09 18:48:45 <_pr> p.15
2811 2013-04-09 18:48:51 twobitcoins has joined
2812 2013-04-09 18:49:32 kombinezon has joined
2813 2013-04-09 18:49:36 <samholmes> open Bitcoin-Qt.app --args --par= allows me to set how many threads I want to open bitcoin client with. But how do I make it to where I can launch with these parameters without running a command, but running by clicking icon?
2814 2013-04-09 18:50:05 <wumpus> make a shortcut
2815 2013-04-09 18:50:06 <_pr> cycles/hash*
2816 2013-04-09 18:50:10 <BlueMatt> samholmes: bitcoin.conf
2817 2013-04-09 18:50:22 <BlueMatt> add par=... to bitcoin.conf in your datadir
2818 2013-04-09 18:50:22 <samholmes> how do I do it there?
2819 2013-04-09 18:50:24 <samholmes> par = 1
2820 2013-04-09 18:51:05 parasciidic has joined
2821 2013-04-09 18:51:09 toffoo has joined
2822 2013-04-09 18:51:12 variousnefarious has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2823 2013-04-09 18:51:23 lorenzi has left ()
2824 2013-04-09 18:51:36 variousnefarious has joined
2825 2013-04-09 18:52:06 <HM> compare hostnames first i guess. if they differ then compare ips
2826 2013-04-09 18:52:59 <aBs0lut30> that makes me sad, i start a good conversation and end up getting on a phone call to miss it all...
2827 2013-04-09 18:53:10 <samholmes> Where is that o mac?
2828 2013-04-09 18:53:11 <samholmes> on*
2829 2013-04-09 18:53:15 <samholmes> info.plist?
2830 2013-04-09 18:53:25 <samholmes> plist is in xml format
2831 2013-04-09 18:53:33 <gonffen> it should be in like ~/.bitcoin/bitcoin.conf
2832 2013-04-09 18:53:38 <gonffen> but it's a mac so idk
2833 2013-04-09 18:53:44 Painke has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2834 2013-04-09 18:53:45 <_dr> samholmes: ~/Library/Application Support/Bitcoin/
2835 2013-04-09 18:53:45 sud3n has joined
2836 2013-04-09 18:53:59 <gonffen> god damn os x breaking standards :|
2837 2013-04-09 18:54:03 <samholmes> _dr: No .conf there
2838 2013-04-09 18:54:09 aBs0lut30 has left ()
2839 2013-04-09 18:54:24 <Arnavion> samholmes: Make one
2840 2013-04-09 18:54:28 <_dr> samholmes: i guess just echo "par=1" > ~/Library/Application\ Support/Bitcoin/bitcoin.conf
2841 2013-04-09 18:54:33 pizzacat has joined
2842 2013-04-09 18:54:39 <Arnavion> It doesn't exist by default
2843 2013-04-09 18:55:27 TD has joined
2844 2013-04-09 18:55:35 <q754> Is the blockchain compressed or not at all?
2845 2013-04-09 18:55:43 <q754> For bitcoin-qt
2846 2013-04-09 18:55:52 <BlueMatt> scripts are
2847 2013-04-09 18:55:57 <q754> It takes ages to download it all.
2848 2013-04-09 18:56:06 <samholmes> How many threads is good?
2849 2013-04-09 18:56:08 <samholmes> 1?
2850 2013-04-09 18:56:23 <BlueMatt> q754: has nothing to do with it...also #bitcoin would be more appropriate
2851 2013-04-09 18:56:23 <sipa> q754: that's mostly because the download mechanism is really crappy
2852 2013-04-09 18:56:30 <samholmes> I just want bitcoin to run quietly in the background so that way it keeps up to date with the block chain
2853 2013-04-09 18:56:32 <_dr> samholmes: you were complaining about heat and fan noise, so yeah, one :)
2854 2013-04-09 18:56:35 <BlueMatt> samholmes: the default is good, also, maybe #bitcoin as well
2855 2013-04-09 18:56:48 <samholmes> BlueMatt: what's the default?
2856 2013-04-09 18:56:54 <q754> BlueMatt: I was on #bitcoin but it was flooded with spam. :(
2857 2013-04-09 18:56:57 tonikt has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2858 2013-04-09 18:57:11 <q754> So I came here instead.
2859 2013-04-09 18:57:14 <BlueMatt> q754: questions that arent related to active development are spam here...
2860 2013-04-09 18:57:22 <BlueMatt> samholmes: the number of cpus you have
2861 2013-04-09 18:57:23 <q754> Ok.
2862 2013-04-09 18:57:27 <_dr> samholmes: 0, i.e. number of hardware threads from what i can tell
2863 2013-04-09 18:58:42 jMyles has joined
2864 2013-04-09 18:58:45 ProfMac has joined
2865 2013-04-09 18:59:01 variousnefarious has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2866 2013-04-09 18:59:29 twobitcoins_ has joined
2867 2013-04-09 19:00:28 qeb has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2868 2013-04-09 19:00:42 variousnefarious has joined
2869 2013-04-09 19:01:56 mercerist has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2870 2013-04-09 19:02:25 <samholmes> Intel Core 2 Duo, guess I have 2
2871 2013-04-09 19:02:32 twobitcoins has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2872 2013-04-09 19:03:01 <BlueMatt> poll: ban price discussion in #bitcoin so that it becomes more discussion/support?
2873 2013-04-09 19:03:37 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: hard to enforce, but fine with me.
2874 2013-04-09 19:03:41 <skinnkavaj> no
2875 2013-04-09 19:03:50 <skinnkavaj> #bitcoin should freedom of speech
2876 2013-04-09 19:03:55 <skinnkavaj> rather make #bitcoin-support
2877 2013-04-09 19:03:57 <gmaxwell> /kb skinnkavaj
2878 2013-04-09 19:03:59 <skinnkavaj> and put that into #bitcoin topic
2879 2013-04-09 19:04:16 saulimus has joined
2880 2013-04-09 19:04:21 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: No, we will _not_ relegate discussion about the system to some backwater channel.
2881 2013-04-09 19:04:35 samholmes has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2882 2013-04-09 19:04:39 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
2883 2013-04-09 19:05:29 <[7]> hm, looks like the wiki knows only about version 1 transaction format...
2884 2013-04-09 19:05:44 <[7]> IIRC the block height was added to the generation transaction in v2?
2885 2013-04-09 19:05:53 owowo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2886 2013-04-09 19:05:56 <[7]> where can I find details on the format?
2887 2013-04-09 19:06:01 D34TH has joined
2888 2013-04-09 19:06:01 D34TH has quit (Changing host)
2889 2013-04-09 19:06:01 D34TH has joined
2890 2013-04-09 19:06:01 sebicas has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2891 2013-04-09 19:06:36 mercerist has joined
2892 2013-04-09 19:06:41 <gmaxwell> [7]: you're asking about block version, not transaction version.
2893 2013-04-09 19:06:50 <bakingbread> will there be a problem with confirmation time when number of users will increase?
2894 2013-04-09 19:06:59 <[7]> yeah, but IIRC the new block version changed the coinbase txn format?
2895 2013-04-09 19:06:59 Irencus has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2896 2013-04-09 19:07:04 owowo has joined
2897 2013-04-09 19:07:17 Julius129 has joined
2898 2013-04-09 19:07:28 <[7]> bakingbread: if you refuse to pay transaction fees, possibly
2899 2013-04-09 19:08:19 someonesomewhere has left ()
2900 2013-04-09 19:08:32 rcknight has joined
2901 2013-04-09 19:09:06 aCoinUser has joined
2902 2013-04-09 19:09:12 <bakingbread> [7]: well I'm waiting for the first confirmation 25 mins already and I payed 750 uBTC fee. I have an impression that was faster some time ago
2903 2013-04-09 19:09:16 someonesomewhere has joined
2904 2013-04-09 19:09:25 <[7]> txn id?
2905 2013-04-09 19:09:33 <gmaxwell> ;;tslb
2906 2013-04-09 19:09:39 <gribble> Time since last block: 2 minutes and 34 seconds
2907 2013-04-09 19:10:35 <bakingbread> [7]: e73b46ad08d04b8b7d29f15880649e98e77472fa81107076998ed05927363105
2908 2013-04-09 19:10:43 <[7]> 2800 unconfirmed txns
2909 2013-04-09 19:10:58 <bakingbread> [7]: ok as we talk it has 2 confirms already. but a minute ago it had 0 (we can check it, right?)
2910 2013-04-09 19:11:10 K1NN6 has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2911 2013-04-09 19:11:42 K1NN6 has joined
2912 2013-04-09 19:11:42 <[7]> was confirmed 4 minutes ago
2913 2013-04-09 19:11:47 reizuki__ has joined
2914 2013-04-09 19:12:01 <[7]> and there was no block for more than 35 minutes before that
2915 2013-04-09 19:12:12 <[7]> so it got into the very first block after it was sent
2916 2013-04-09 19:12:42 leprosys has joined
2917 2013-04-09 19:12:42 leprosys has quit (Changing host)
2918 2013-04-09 19:12:42 leprosys has joined
2919 2013-04-09 19:12:55 <bakingbread> [7]: ok.. so mine concern is will those blocks be enough if number of transactions will increase
2920 2013-04-09 19:13:14 <[7]> it might require more fee to get a slot some day
2921 2013-04-09 19:13:28 <[7]> after all that's what's supposed to replace the mining subsidy in the long run
2922 2013-04-09 19:13:43 nsillik has joined
2923 2013-04-09 19:14:14 <bakingbread> ...and more fee will attract more miners which will make transactions faster (in theory)
2924 2013-04-09 19:14:24 <[7]> yes
2925 2013-04-09 19:15:23 K1NN6 has left ()
2926 2013-04-09 19:15:44 <bakingbread> makes sense
2927 2013-04-09 19:15:51 rdymac has joined
2928 2013-04-09 19:16:06 <BlueMatt> poll: #bitcoin-support ?
2929 2013-04-09 19:16:59 <[7]> BlueMatt: given the amount of nonsense jabber in #bitcoin, that seems to be a good idea
2930 2013-04-09 19:17:40 <gmaxwell> NAK
2931 2013-04-09 19:18:03 <BlueMatt> why not?
2932 2013-04-09 19:18:04 <gmaxwell> We should supress the nonsense jabber with hashness instead of sending support to some ghetto.
2933 2013-04-09 19:18:13 <sipa> Goonie_, TD: present?
2934 2013-04-09 19:18:18 <TD> for a little bit
2935 2013-04-09 19:18:28 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: even legitimate discussion is too large for one channel
2936 2013-04-09 19:18:31 <[7]> sending nonsense to the ghetto is far more difficult than sending people who want help there :)
2937 2013-04-09 19:18:42 <sipa> TD: apparently my phone automatically downgraded to an older market version of bitcoin wallet again
2938 2013-04-09 19:18:42 <Goonie_> sipa: yes
2939 2013-04-09 19:19:01 <sipa> and now installing from the beta .apk just gets an error "App not installed"
2940 2013-04-09 19:19:21 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: maybe, but lets try to thin it out. The support discussion is importantâ because people who don't know about support learn and later repeat useful answers.
2941 2013-04-09 19:19:39 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: agreed, but Im not sure its possible in #bitcoin anymore :(
2942 2013-04-09 19:19:44 <Goonie_> sipa: if you use beta versions you should disable automatic market updates
2943 2013-04-09 19:19:46 <gmaxwell> E.g. I now see tuxblack providing tech support from time to timeâ an outcome which would never happen with a seperated support channel.
2944 2013-04-09 19:20:10 <sipa> Goonie_, TD: can i safely uninstall the market (sorry, play) version, or will that delete the wallet?
2945 2013-04-09 19:20:37 <Goonie_> sipa: uninstalling apps will remove all data, so the wallet will be gone
2946 2013-04-09 19:20:51 <sipa> i hope that hasn't happened already...
2947 2013-04-09 19:21:06 <TD> Goonie_: beta versions really should have a higher version code than release versions
2948 2013-04-09 19:21:09 <TD> i can't see any reason not to do that
2949 2013-04-09 19:21:19 <sipa> i'll just let the stable version sync for now
2950 2013-04-09 19:21:19 <TD> there's no reason they have to be sequential
2951 2013-04-09 19:21:28 <Goonie_> sipa: I've never heard of a market upgrade that has failed in this way
2952 2013-04-09 19:21:46 <Goonie_> sipa: I'm in the process of preparing the RC, that should install over your version just fine
2953 2013-04-09 19:21:57 mihar has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2954 2013-04-09 19:22:06 <sipa> my address book is still present
2955 2013-04-09 19:22:37 normanrichards has joined
2956 2013-04-09 19:22:42 <Ry4an> I always disable automatic updates for bitcoin-wallet on android because the hacking of the dev's android account and replacing it w/ a build that immediately sends all in-wallet coins to a fixed address is a really temping attack model
2957 2013-04-09 19:22:50 <Goonie_> sipa: if you haven't done already, you should backup your wallet
2958 2013-04-09 19:23:06 <sipa> Goonie_: yeah, last time i used it the coins on it weren't really worth anything :p
2959 2013-04-09 19:24:21 <Goonie_> ry4an: yes, although the attacker would also need the signing key
2960 2013-04-09 19:24:32 q754 has left ()
2961 2013-04-09 19:25:02 <Goonie_> ry4an: I think a larger threat is that Google bans the app for whatever reason and hits the "uninstall on all devices" button without knowing what they do.
2962 2013-04-09 19:25:50 <TD> i think a larger danger is you get hacked :)
2963 2013-04-09 19:25:58 <TD> or, something goes badly wrong and you end up subject to a court order
2964 2013-04-09 19:26:13 easy-iPad has joined
2965 2013-04-09 19:26:19 <TD> if we can find someone to volunteer i'll send the threshold RSA implementation to them and we can look at splitting your signing key
2966 2013-04-09 19:26:25 <TD> i keep meaning to try
2967 2013-04-09 19:26:36 <TD> just never got around to it
2968 2013-04-09 19:26:41 CidonaBoy has joined
2969 2013-04-09 19:27:29 tmsk has quit (Quit: tmsk)
2970 2013-04-09 19:27:30 <Goonie_> TD: court order for what?
2971 2013-04-09 19:27:49 <TD> who knows. court order to seize someones assets or something
2972 2013-04-09 19:28:20 bigtip has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2973 2013-04-09 19:28:21 <Goonie_> TD: pffff. That would go public immediately.
2974 2013-04-09 19:28:28 <[7]> so... where can I read about how the coinbase txn should be constructed these days?
2975 2013-04-09 19:28:40 <TD> you wouldn't be allowed to talk about it. see the I2P compromise.
2976 2013-04-09 19:29:00 <TD> not i2p. i forgot the name.
2977 2013-04-09 19:29:13 <TD> there was some tor competitor that had a backdoor inserted into it because german law enforcement got a court order against the developers
2978 2013-04-09 19:29:47 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
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2982 2013-04-09 19:30:31 <Goonie_> Hmmm, its about time we get a reproducable build. Then it simply could not happen.
2983 2013-04-09 19:30:37 <Goonie_> Technicallyy.
2984 2013-04-09 19:30:56 <gonffen> isn't i2p german?
2985 2013-04-09 19:31:50 mihar has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2990 2013-04-09 19:33:53 <gmaxwell> Goonie_: For bitcoin we have reproducable builds but it's very hard to get people to partiicpate.
2991 2013-04-09 19:34:03 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
2992 2013-04-09 19:34:40 <sipa> Goonie_: did an export, uninstall, install beta, import, resync
2993 2013-04-09 19:34:43 <sipa> Goonie_: worked like a charm
2994 2013-04-09 19:34:46 noah_ has joined
2995 2013-04-09 19:34:59 <Goonie_> sipa: nice
2996 2013-04-09 19:35:01 * TD should step up
2997 2013-04-09 19:35:04 CidonaBoy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2998 2013-04-09 19:35:23 <TD> i think part of the reason is the reproducible build is amazingly complicated. you need virtual machines and so on. you can't just compile with a regular toolchain unzipped to a directory and get the same binaries
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3001 2013-04-09 19:35:52 <TD> i guess for an android reproducible build you'd just use the same version of javac and dex and you're done. maven should ensure the libraries are all synchronized.
3002 2013-04-09 19:35:54 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3003 2013-04-09 19:36:52 <Goonie_> yes. and then it should pull the apk from google play via some undocumented api and compare files
3004 2013-04-09 19:37:02 AtashiCon has quit (Quit: AtashiCon)
3005 2013-04-09 19:37:04 <Goonie_> (ignoring the signature file itself I guess)
3006 2013-04-09 19:37:50 <TD> the idea of a reproducible build is everyone compiles it at the same time, then does a threshold signature over it. by combining the shares a final valid RSA signature can be produced
3007 2013-04-09 19:37:50 [Author] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3008 2013-04-09 19:37:54 <TD> but only if everyone is signing the same thing, obviously
3009 2013-04-09 19:37:54 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3010 2013-04-09 19:37:57 <TD> it's not a post-audit model
3011 2013-04-09 19:38:20 <TD> in the most extreme version, you'd give up the private key and only keep a share. then a new version of the app can't be released without other developers signing off on it
3012 2013-04-09 19:38:23 AtashiCon has joined
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3014 2013-04-09 19:39:03 <[7]> so, IIUC, the coinbase txn is 00 00 00 01 01, then 32x 0x00 (prevout hash), then 4x 0xff (prevout index), then a byte with the number of bytes of the block height, then the block height itself encoded into the minimum number of bytes (little endian), then the GBT coinbaseaux flags value, then ntime in the same encoding as the height, then a byte with the number of extranonce bytes, then the extranonce, 00 01, then the script size and script,
3015 2013-04-09 19:39:03 <[7]> 00 00 00 00... right?
3016 2013-04-09 19:40:39 free__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3017 2013-04-09 19:41:07 <Goonie_> I wonder how should a court know which client as in use. And even if they track it down to bitcoin wallet, it could have been downloaded from f-droid or it could be the blackberry version.
3018 2013-04-09 19:41:08 bigti[ has joined
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3020 2013-04-09 19:41:58 <Goonie_> Or it could be self-compiled. If I were doing illegal things I'd probably not connect to the cloud at all.
3021 2013-04-09 19:42:32 <TD> it's a theoretical issue
3022 2013-04-09 19:42:35 <TD> i don't know all the answers
3023 2013-04-09 19:42:46 <TD> just that when lots of money gets involved, far out scenarios become feasible
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3033 2013-04-09 19:50:11 <Grouver> Can you let bitcoind download the blockchain and then if its done close it and open bitcoin-qt?
3034 2013-04-09 19:50:40 <Arnavion> Yes
3035 2013-04-09 19:50:51 <[7]> if it's the same version and they use the same data directory, then yes
3036 2013-04-09 19:51:14 mihar has joined
3037 2013-04-09 19:51:24 <[7]> downloading with bitcoind 0.8 and using a bitcoin-qt 0.7 (for example) wouldn't work though
3038 2013-04-09 19:51:41 <Grouver> Okay. Thanks. Will try it out.
3039 2013-04-09 19:52:04 <Grouver> Cause letting my little lubuntu computer out of year 0 run bitcoin-qt 24/7 is not an option.
3040 2013-04-09 19:52:15 Irencus has joined
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3042 2013-04-09 19:52:22 ThomasV has joined
3043 2013-04-09 19:52:27 <Grouver> While downloadin the blockchain ofcourse.
3044 2013-04-09 19:52:43 <sipa> Grouver: copy just the blocks/ and chainstate/ directory
3045 2013-04-09 19:52:58 <[7]> what's the problem with running bitcoin-qt 24/7 compared to bitcoind?
3046 2013-04-09 19:53:01 <Grouver> At first its okay but now around 70% it takes all the ram (1gb) and cpu power (amd athlon 2600)
3047 2013-04-09 19:53:17 <[7]> I'm afraid bitcoind won't do much better...
3048 2013-04-09 19:53:33 <[7]> it's validating millions of transactions
3049 2013-04-09 19:53:58 <Grouver> I also did a very little research about the minumum specs to run bitcoin at the first place.
3050 2013-04-09 19:54:07 free__ has joined
3051 2013-04-09 19:54:13 <sipa> Grouver: 0.8.2 should have far better memory usage
3052 2013-04-09 19:54:22 <sipa> (not yet released)
3053 2013-04-09 19:54:38 <warren> is there a target for 0.8.2? 3 months?
3054 2013-04-09 19:54:47 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3055 2013-04-09 19:55:06 <sipa> i certainly hope less than that
3056 2013-04-09 19:55:06 <[7]> it needs about ~10GB disk space, ~500MB RAM and a little bit of CPU once it's synced up
3057 2013-04-09 19:55:17 <[7]> during sync it needs quite a lot of CPU as well
3058 2013-04-09 19:55:22 <gmaxwell> warren: uh.. more like weeks than months.
3059 2013-04-09 19:55:28 <warren> good to hear
3060 2013-04-09 19:55:40 <warren> [7]: 0.8.1 is using 700MB RAM here ...
3061 2013-04-09 19:55:41 i2pRelay has joined
3062 2013-04-09 19:55:50 <Grouver> sipa: Nice. Cause this old veteran machine is not taking it anymore. Though, what if i remove the 2x512mb ram units and put in some more ram? Would that solve the prob? Or is the transaction veryfying a cpu intensive proces?
3063 2013-04-09 19:55:54 <[7]> 422M here
3064 2013-04-09 19:55:57 <gmaxwell> sipa: any other thoughts on low hanging sync improvements? luke's graph from earlier was very concerning.
3065 2013-04-09 19:56:04 <sipa> gmaxwell: which one?
3066 2013-04-09 19:56:25 <[7]> Grouver: just let it sit for a while, it will eventually crunch through it
3067 2013-04-09 19:56:45 easy-iPad has joined
3068 2013-04-09 19:56:48 <[7]> more ram *might* help, especially if you see lots of disk access
3069 2013-04-09 19:56:49 <Grouver> [7], The syncing is the problem i guess then. It takes all of my ram and cpu power now.
3070 2013-04-09 19:56:51 <gmaxwell> sipa: http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/bestblocks.html
3071 2013-04-09 19:57:03 <[7]> Grouver: it does that for a while even on high end machines
3072 2013-04-09 19:57:27 richcollins has joined
3073 2013-04-09 19:57:52 <richcollins> my transaction says "0/offline, has not been successfully broadcast yet" when can I expect broadcast?
3074 2013-04-09 19:58:03 <sipa> gmaxwell: i was expecting worse
3075 2013-04-09 19:58:05 <Grouver> [7] It bitcoin-qt does require a restart once in a while though. I dont want to run it down and force a reboot. Cause that will ruin the whole blockchain and make me resynch again like last time.
3076 2013-04-09 19:58:25 <sipa> richcollins: it's rebroadcast every 15-30 minutes
3077 2013-04-09 19:58:34 twobitcoins has joined
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3079 2013-04-09 19:58:43 <richcollins> sipa: Any way to force broadcast?
3080 2013-04-09 19:58:52 <sipa> richcollins: no
3081 2013-04-09 19:59:14 <gmaxwell> sipa: do you have snapshots of your seeds.txt from different times? would be interesting to plot a height histogram from now and from a few weeks ago.
3082 2013-04-09 19:59:16 <richcollins> sips will it only broadcast a few at a time?
3083 2013-04-09 19:59:23 <richcollins> or will it do them all at once?
3084 2013-04-09 19:59:23 <TD> gmaxwell: wow
3085 2013-04-09 19:59:29 <TD> gmaxwell: i don't know whether to celebrate or cry
3086 2013-04-09 19:59:29 <Grouver> [7], Cause it cant shutdown the syncing proces correctly after i boot up bitcoin-qt again it says my whole blockchain is corrupted and i should remove everything and resync again.
3087 2013-04-09 20:00:16 <sipa> richcollins: all of them, afaik
3088 2013-04-09 20:00:16 <[7]> bitcoin-qt will behave pretty much exactly like bitcoind
3089 2013-04-09 20:00:38 <sipa> Grouver: what OS?
3090 2013-04-09 20:00:46 catcow has joined
3091 2013-04-09 20:00:46 Killdozer has joined
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3093 2013-04-09 20:00:52 <sipa> Grouver: does it consistently corrupt?
3094 2013-04-09 20:00:54 <[7]> sipa: some lubuntu
3095 2013-04-09 20:01:00 <sipa> Grouver: that will not be different between -qt and d, though
3096 2013-04-09 20:01:03 <Killdozer> guys what is the max length of a txid string?
3097 2013-04-09 20:01:09 <Killdozer> is it defined somewhere?
3098 2013-04-09 20:01:12 <Grouver> sipa: lubuntu 12.04
3099 2013-04-09 20:01:17 <sipa> Killdozer: exactly 32 bytes or 64 hex characters
3100 2013-04-09 20:01:27 <warren> Grouver: what filesystem?
3101 2013-04-09 20:01:33 <sipa> Grouver: -qt and d are exactly the same program, except d doesn't have the GUI compiled-in
3102 2013-04-09 20:01:41 <[7]> Killdozer: it's a sha256 hash, in case you're curious
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3106 2013-04-09 20:02:01 <Killdozer> Thanks guys! You're better and fasster than google :P
3107 2013-04-09 20:02:11 <Grouver> I think i know why the database got corrupted though. Maybe cause i also installed bitcoind via sudo apt-get install bitcoind.
3108 2013-04-09 20:02:17 <Grouver> But i guess that was the wrong version.
3109 2013-04-09 20:02:32 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3110 2013-04-09 20:02:49 <Grouver> So when I was in the dir of bin/32/bitcoind & bitcoin-qt and launched bitcoind it launched the installed one and not the one in the dir.
3111 2013-04-09 20:02:57 <Grouver> And created the old file structure.
3112 2013-04-09 20:03:10 <Grouver> which bitcoin-qt 0.8.1 couldnt read.
3113 2013-04-09 20:03:16 mE\Ta has joined
3114 2013-04-09 20:03:17 <Grouver> Or am i talking BS here?
3115 2013-04-09 20:03:23 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3116 2013-04-09 20:03:26 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
3117 2013-04-09 20:04:06 i2pRelay has joined
3118 2013-04-09 20:04:10 Darin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
3119 2013-04-09 20:04:18 <Grouver> warren: ext4
3120 2013-04-09 20:04:29 <warren> Grouver: your db wasn't corrupted, it's just different for 0.8.x. Future versions will use the 0.8.x blockchain + database just fine
3121 2013-04-09 20:04:34 sud3n has joined
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3124 2013-04-09 20:05:05 <warren> Grouver: if you want the initial sync to go faster you may want to consider doing it on a faster computer, shutdown bitcoind then move the entire directory over.
3125 2013-04-09 20:05:10 <sipa> Grouver: actually, that message about needing to delete everything is outdated
3126 2013-04-09 20:05:17 <sipa> Grouver: you should just delete the database/ subdir
3127 2013-04-09 20:05:28 viperhr1 has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
3128 2013-04-09 20:05:41 <sipa> gmaxwell: my plan for block sync (apart from headers-first) is here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2034
3129 2013-04-09 20:05:43 <Grouver> i would like to know though. if the sudo apt-get install bitcoind it downloads then is outdate or not.
3130 2013-04-09 20:06:03 <sipa> Grouver: don't mix versions from different sources
3131 2013-04-09 20:06:06 leprosys has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3132 2013-04-09 20:06:08 viperhr1 has joined
3133 2013-04-09 20:06:28 <sipa> we'll fix that, but BDB (which is used for the wallet) is really fragile when it comes to updates
3134 2013-04-09 20:06:30 <warren> Grouver: that's not really a bitcoin-dev problem, you're asking if your distro is shipping an old version, which is probably true. Please ask them.
3135 2013-04-09 20:06:54 serp has joined
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3138 2013-04-09 20:08:06 exa has joined
3139 2013-04-09 20:08:18 <[7]> hm, so is there really no documentation on how a coinbase transaction should look these days?
3140 2013-04-09 20:08:21 owowo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3141 2013-04-09 20:08:26 <[7]> am I forced to reverse engineer that?
3142 2013-04-09 20:08:49 <Grouver> warren, iam not making it a problem. I am just wondering how this works and if all of this gets updated reguarly. But okay.
3143 2013-04-09 20:08:53 <gmaxwell> [7]: Did you bother reading the BIP?
3144 2013-04-09 20:09:21 <gmaxwell> [7]: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0034https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0034
3145 2013-04-09 20:10:05 <warren> Grouver: run the bitcoin-qt from bitcoin.org and there is no confusion
3146 2013-04-09 20:10:12 chorao has joined
3147 2013-04-09 20:10:34 owowo has joined
3148 2013-04-09 20:10:39 <[7]> that contains some interesting information about the height thing, but I didn't fully understand the general format yet
3149 2013-04-09 20:11:26 <[7]> https://en.bitcoin.it/w/images/en/e/e1/TxBinaryMap.png suggests that the sigscript in a generation transaction is arbitrary binary data
3150 2013-04-09 20:11:27 Anduck has joined
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3152 2013-04-09 20:11:48 easy-iPad has quit (Quit: Outta here?)
3153 2013-04-09 20:11:51 <[7]> is that not true anymore?
3154 2013-04-09 20:12:02 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
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3156 2013-04-09 20:12:12 Diablo-D3 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
3157 2013-04-09 20:12:14 <lianj> [7]: for a coinbase tx? no
3158 2013-04-09 20:12:28 <lianj> it must include the block height now.
3159 2013-04-09 20:12:36 i2pRelay has joined
3160 2013-04-09 20:12:55 <[7]> does that require the field to be generally formatted like a "normal" script now?
3161 2013-04-09 20:13:06 <[7]> from what I understand these items are pushed to the stack, do they need to be there in a specific order?
3162 2013-04-09 20:13:15 <sipa> [7]: it's fuzzy
3163 2013-04-09 20:13:22 <[7]> what about ntime? slush's pool code seems to push that as well, but I can't find any reference to that elsewhere
3164 2013-04-09 20:13:29 <sipa> [7]: some rules interpret the coinbase as a script, others as a byte array
3165 2013-04-09 20:14:11 <[7]> so the safe approach is putting a script in there that pushes the height as the first element, and any other stuff (extranonce) as another element?
3166 2013-04-09 20:14:54 <[7]> what about that coinbaseaux flags thing, where and how does that need to appear?
3167 2013-04-09 20:15:27 Satoshigames has joined
3168 2013-04-09 20:15:32 <Satoshigames> is it just me or is this game riggable? http://www.satoshi-karoshi.com/?r=10670 ive just been going left to right and making baaank
3169 2013-04-09 20:16:23 <gmaxwell> freeking spammers
3170 2013-04-09 20:16:36 mercerist has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
3171 2013-04-09 20:17:02 diki has quit ()
3172 2013-04-09 20:18:30 CidonaBoy has joined
3173 2013-04-09 20:18:58 <pjorrit_> i wonder what their conversation rate would be in a -dev chan
3174 2013-04-09 20:20:03 PhantomSpark has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3175 2013-04-09 20:20:05 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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3179 2013-04-09 20:21:50 Washu has joined
3180 2013-04-09 20:23:00 [Author] has joined
3181 2013-04-09 20:25:35 <[7]> hm, looking a bit more closely, one would need about 500G md5 hashes per game to cheat
3182 2013-04-09 20:26:15 <[7]> (to get to the bottom)
3183 2013-04-09 20:26:22 <pigeons> its more riggable if you use his referral code
3184 2013-04-09 20:26:30 <[7]> is that more profitable than mining? ;(
3185 2013-04-09 20:26:35 <[7]> ;)*
3186 2013-04-09 20:27:00 <[7]> or wait, it was sha1
3187 2013-04-09 20:27:57 workman has joined
3188 2013-04-09 20:28:09 Diablo-D3 has joined
3189 2013-04-09 20:28:20 <[7]> ok, another question about the coinbase txn: what are the sequence and locktime fields?
3190 2013-04-09 20:28:29 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3191 2013-04-09 20:29:15 <Luke-Jr> [7]: not useful for coinbase txns
3192 2013-04-09 20:29:23 i2pRelay has joined
3193 2013-04-09 20:29:28 <[7]> what should they be then? zero?
3194 2013-04-09 20:29:38 <sipa> the coinbase must be 'final'
3195 2013-04-09 20:29:47 <sipa> well, any transaction in the blockchain must be
3196 2013-04-09 20:29:55 <sipa> but non-final coinbases are pointless
3197 2013-04-09 20:30:48 <Luke-Jr> hmm
3198 2013-04-09 20:31:02 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I wonder if abusing locktime as an extranonce makes sense <.<
3199 2013-04-09 20:31:46 oru has quit (Quit: ~)
3200 2013-04-09 20:31:57 Washu has left ()
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3203 2013-04-09 20:32:14 oru has joined
3204 2013-04-09 20:32:38 raft has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3205 2013-04-09 20:33:01 <Eliel> Luke-Jr: the existing extranonce is not enough?
3206 2013-04-09 20:33:02 <[7]> just curious: is it legal to have a txout that spends 0 satoshis in a txn? if yes, would it be pruned from the unspent txouts?
3207 2013-04-09 20:33:18 <[7]> Eliel: the existing extranonce is in a slightly inconvenient place
3208 2013-04-09 20:33:19 MobPhone has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3209 2013-04-09 20:33:21 <Luke-Jr> Eliel: no :P
3210 2013-04-09 20:33:57 MobPhone has joined
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3214 2013-04-09 20:34:52 <neo2> Once the wallet is empty, when you receive new coins, are they still linkable to the old funds?
3215 2013-04-09 20:36:19 <[7]> if you receive coins to an address that you haven't used before, and spend them from an otherwise empty wallet, they shouldn't be linkable to anything that has been in the wallet previously, IIUC
3216 2013-04-09 20:36:26 raft has joined
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3218 2013-04-09 20:37:05 <[7]> if the wallet is empty anyway, and you want to be extra sure, you could as well just create a new one
3219 2013-04-09 20:37:29 EasyAt has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3220 2013-04-09 20:37:48 i2pRelay has joined
3221 2013-04-09 20:37:55 Ogig has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3222 2013-04-09 20:37:56 <neo2> thanks [7]
3223 2013-04-09 20:38:55 Goonie_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3224 2013-04-09 20:39:14 CidonaBoy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3225 2013-04-09 20:40:44 cuqa has joined
3226 2013-04-09 20:40:51 <gwillen> [7]: zero-coin txouts are nonstandard
3227 2013-04-09 20:41:03 <gwillen> so they won't be relayed or mined but they will be accepted if found in a block that's already in the chain
3228 2013-04-09 20:41:06 <gwillen> IIRC
3229 2013-04-09 20:41:10 oiram has joined
3230 2013-04-09 20:41:20 <[7]> so one could in theory use them as an extranonce container...
3231 2013-04-09 20:41:35 EasyAt has joined
3232 2013-04-09 20:41:35 EasyAt has quit (Changing host)
3233 2013-04-09 20:41:35 EasyAt has joined
3234 2013-04-09 20:41:53 <[7]> and as a solution to the ppcoin block signing problem
3235 2013-04-09 20:43:18 Goonie_ has joined
3236 2013-04-09 20:44:21 <cuqa> hey, is it possible to receive bitcoins on a specific address, then get another address and send the coins from the new address..
3237 2013-04-09 20:44:48 <cuqa> or how does the bitcoin client decide which address the coins are sent from
3238 2013-04-09 20:44:57 denisx has joined
3239 2013-04-09 20:45:05 <[7]> you can't break the "money trail", otherwise it wouldn't be verifiable that you are the legitimate spender of the coins
3240 2013-04-09 20:45:24 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3241 2013-04-09 20:45:30 <[7]> the bitcoin client just picks whichever coins are "convenient", and require a low transaction fee
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3248 2013-04-09 20:50:51 <neo2> [7], the criterion is an address which wasn't used recently?
3249 2013-04-09 20:51:02 Diablo-D3 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
3250 2013-04-09 20:51:25 <[7]> one of the criteria is that the coins have been sitting on an address for a while, but amounts also play a role
3251 2013-04-09 20:51:52 <neo2> so it increases the chance for the tx to be processed quickly?
3252 2013-04-09 20:52:21 RBecker has quit (Excess Flood)
3253 2013-04-09 20:52:40 <sipa> 'addresses' don't ezist at the protocol level
3254 2013-04-09 20:52:52 <sipa> there is no notion of 'an address being used'
3255 2013-04-09 20:52:53 <[7]> basically yes
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3266 2013-04-09 20:54:48 <neo2> sipa, but addresses are public keys
3267 2013-04-09 20:54:58 <sipa> no they are not
3268 2013-04-09 20:55:16 <sipa> they correspond to a subset of scripts
3269 2013-04-09 20:55:22 <sipa> but that's not what i mean
3270 2013-04-09 20:55:34 <neo2> sipa, every tx signs a value to private keys
3271 2013-04-09 20:55:36 <sipa> it's not addresses that are used, it is individual coins
3272 2013-04-09 20:55:38 <neo2> *public
3273 2013-04-09 20:55:53 <sipa> and the client chooses coins
3274 2013-04-09 20:55:54 oiram has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3275 2013-04-09 20:56:09 <sipa> they happen to belong to addresses, but that is not relevant
3276 2013-04-09 20:56:11 <neo2> so what separates two sends which are sent to the same address?
3277 2013-04-09 20:56:45 <sipa> bitcoin transactions, fundamentally, consume specific coins and create new ones
3278 2013-04-09 20:57:00 <sipa> they consume coins by proving ownership using a private key
3279 2013-04-09 20:57:16 <sipa> melt them together
3280 2013-04-09 20:57:36 <sipa> split them into new pieceand assign those pieces to new addresses
3281 2013-04-09 20:57:52 <sipa> the address is just the authentication layer
3282 2013-04-09 20:58:12 <sipa> there is no 'using an address' - you pick a specific coin
3283 2013-04-09 20:58:34 <ali1234> so how does address sweeping work?
3284 2013-04-09 20:58:35 free__ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3285 2013-04-09 20:58:51 <[7]> by sending all coins that are accessible through that address to somewhere else
3286 2013-04-09 20:59:16 <ali1234> how is that fundamentally different from "using" an address?
3287 2013-04-09 20:59:21 <sipa> neo2: read this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Change
3288 2013-04-09 20:59:43 <sipa> ali1234: because - from the point of the protocol - there is no such thing as the balance of an address
3289 2013-04-09 20:59:44 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
3290 2013-04-09 20:59:56 <sipa> ali1234: you always use specific coins
3291 2013-04-09 21:00:03 <neo2> sipa, so the ledger holds all the tx's and buy summing the sends to the address?
3292 2013-04-09 21:00:11 <sipa> neo2: yes
3293 2013-04-09 21:00:26 <sipa> but you need the actual transaction output to spend them
3294 2013-04-09 21:00:36 <neo2> sipa, so a tx is the "coin" level below "addresses" which are digital identities
3295 2013-04-09 21:00:43 <sipa> a transaction is not 'from address X to address Y'
3296 2013-04-09 21:00:59 free__ has joined
3297 2013-04-09 21:01:14 <neo2> so to spend them the client makes sends from all the tx's?
3298 2013-04-09 21:01:16 <sipa> it is 'from coin C and C2 and ... to address A1 with amount N1, and to address A2 with amount N2 and ...'
3299 2013-04-09 21:01:24 <neo2> so what does the client hold, the tx's?
3300 2013-04-09 21:01:35 <sipa> where C and C2 are a previous transaction and its output number
3301 2013-04-09 21:01:39 <sipa> neo2: indeed
3302 2013-04-09 21:01:42 <sipa> and keys
3303 2013-04-09 21:02:15 <neo2> so the keys are really wallets, and the wallet.dat is a wallet of wallets...
3304 2013-04-09 21:02:16 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3305 2013-04-09 21:02:30 <sipa> no, it's one wallet
3306 2013-04-09 21:02:40 <sipa> the coins in it are managed collectively
3307 2013-04-09 21:02:55 <neo2> yeah, i meant figuratively...
3308 2013-04-09 21:03:03 <sipa> the fact that you talk about the balance of an address means you're somehow categorizing those coins together
3309 2013-04-09 21:03:03 <ali1234> in the standard client they are
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3311 2013-04-09 21:03:15 <sipa> but at no point that is done in the software
3312 2013-04-09 21:03:32 <neo2> they're categorized together because they were sent to the same address
3313 2013-04-09 21:03:39 <ali1234> there's no reason it cannot be implemented though, right?
3314 2013-04-09 21:03:50 <sipa> there's a good reason not to, though
3315 2013-04-09 21:03:56 <sipa> namely address reuse
3316 2013-04-09 21:04:07 <ali1234> it does not imply address reuse
3317 2013-04-09 21:04:11 <sipa> bitcoin is effectively designed to use each address only once
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3319 2013-04-09 21:04:28 <ali1234> if i can sweep an address, i can sweep it to two new addresses, one the person i;m paying, and a new one with my change
3320 2013-04-09 21:04:34 <sipa> well if no address is ever reused, balance of an address is not a useful notion
3321 2013-04-09 21:04:52 <ali1234> it is if i specifically don't want to use some coins for some tx
3322 2013-04-09 21:05:02 <ali1234> i could use multiple wallets instead
3323 2013-04-09 21:05:07 <sipa> that's micromanagement
3324 2013-04-09 21:05:10 Ogig has joined
3325 2013-04-09 21:05:15 <sipa> why do you care?
3326 2013-04-09 21:05:18 <ali1234> i don't
3327 2013-04-09 21:05:27 <sipa> if you want to keep coins seoarate, use separate wallets
3328 2013-04-09 21:05:30 <ali1234> i'm just saying, it's possible, despite not being part of the protocol
3329 2013-04-09 21:05:38 <sipa> sure it is possible
3330 2013-04-09 21:05:46 <sipa> it's just bad practice
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3332 2013-04-09 21:06:06 <ali1234> ultimately a wallet is just a file
3333 2013-04-09 21:06:08 <sipa> and looking at the sysyem that way encourages address reuse
3334 2013-04-09 21:06:09 mbasimov has joined
3335 2013-04-09 21:06:15 <sipa> but ues, certainly possible
3336 2013-04-09 21:06:17 <[7]> in GBT, does coinbasevalue include the transactions that are in the array?
3337 2013-04-09 21:06:40 <ali1234> using multiple wallets is not different to implementing a client which segregates addresses into subgroups
3338 2013-04-09 21:07:04 <sipa> ali1234: and more importantly, coins into subgroups
3339 2013-04-09 21:07:11 <ali1234> same thing really :)
3340 2013-04-09 21:07:17 <[7]> no, it's not
3341 2013-04-09 21:07:33 <sipa> it's just a philosophical thing
3342 2013-04-09 21:07:41 <sipa> technically there is little differenxe
3343 2013-04-09 21:07:47 TD has joined
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3348 2013-04-09 21:08:31 <sipa> but looking as a wallet as a set of addresses doesn't help imho; it has addresses that are 'entry points' into the wallet, but for the rest it's a black box that manages coins to provide a ledger&balance
3349 2013-04-09 21:08:35 Ogig has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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3351 2013-04-09 21:08:48 <sipa> technically, it manages a set of addresses of course
3352 2013-04-09 21:08:55 <sipa> as it needs the keya for spendig
3353 2013-04-09 21:09:00 <neo2> sipa, so how are tx's linked to the address?
3354 2013-04-09 21:09:10 <sipa> they are not
3355 2013-04-09 21:09:18 <sipa> they link to specific previous inputs
3356 2013-04-09 21:09:24 <sipa> *outputs
3357 2013-04-09 21:09:32 <sipa> and the outputs contain scripts
3358 2013-04-09 21:09:43 <sipa> and addresses are shorthands for specific scriots
3359 2013-04-09 21:10:12 <neo2> sipa, but aren't the tx's signed to the public keys = addresses?
3360 2013-04-09 21:10:15 <Ignatius-otc> Hi all, I tried to ask this in #bitcoin to no avail, hopefully someone here can assist? I sent a tx with the switch -paytxfee=0.001 but the tx was actually sent with a fee of 0.00037971. It took many hours but I just got a confirmation in the last block. Why the seemingly random tx fee?
3361 2013-04-09 21:10:41 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3362 2013-04-09 21:10:52 <sipa> Ignatius-otc: -paytxfee is the fee per kilobyte
3363 2013-04-09 21:10:52 <neo2> Ignatius-otc, isn't it also up to the miner?
3364 2013-04-09 21:10:55 darkee has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3365 2013-04-09 21:11:07 <neo2> i'll just be quiet..
3366 2013-04-09 21:11:29 darkee has joined
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3368 2013-04-09 21:11:38 <Ignatius-otc> neo2: up to the mienr to accept? yes
3369 2013-04-09 21:11:38 i2pRelay has joined
3370 2013-04-09 21:11:42 <Ignatius-otc> miner*
3371 2013-04-09 21:12:48 <cuqa> does anyone know who runs coinad.com?
3372 2013-04-09 21:12:59 <twmz_> Ignatius-otc
3373 2013-04-09 21:13:08 <Ignatius-otc> sipa: so I goofed and -paytxfee doesn't set the fee used for that individual tx, it set the fee per kilobyte for that particular transaction. the tx was 914 bytes.
3374 2013-04-09 21:13:20 <Ignatius-otc> yes twmz
3375 2013-04-09 21:13:27 volante has joined
3376 2013-04-09 21:13:47 <twmz_> Ignatius-otc: did you pass that parameter when you started bitcoin-qt or bitcoind? or did you pass the parameter when you sent the transaction from the command line?
3377 2013-04-09 21:13:57 <Ignatius-otc> cli
3378 2013-04-09 21:14:05 <sipa> Ignatius-otc: thatbwon't work
3379 2013-04-09 21:14:10 <sipa> it's a sercer setting
3380 2013-04-09 21:14:11 <Ignatius-otc> i did a sendtoaddress -paytxfee=0.001 address amount
3381 2013-04-09 21:14:14 <sipa> *server
3382 2013-04-09 21:14:18 <twmz_> as far as I understand, that command line parameter only takes affect when you start the server
3383 2013-04-09 21:14:31 <twmz_> not on an individual transaction
3384 2013-04-09 21:14:32 <sipa> the only thing sent to the server is the actual rpc command and arguments
3385 2013-04-09 21:14:48 <twmz_> what sipa said :)
3386 2013-04-09 21:14:55 <sipa> also, that is a very strange number
3387 2013-04-09 21:15:17 <sipa> i suppose it's caused by the remaining outout not being spendable otherwise
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3389 2013-04-09 21:15:25 <Ignatius-otc> I see, thanks for the help. I just want to make sure I don't repeat this, it's been a nail-biting day.
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3416 2013-04-09 21:34:20 <rottenchris> ?
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3419 2013-04-09 21:36:56 <ThomasV> nanotube: how do I pat the fee to edit the wiki?
3420 2013-04-09 21:37:04 Grouver has quit (Quit: I love my HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-)
3421 2013-04-09 21:37:05 <ThomasV> *pay*
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3428 2013-04-09 21:39:00 free__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3429 2013-04-09 21:39:05 <ThomasV> nanotube: nvm, I found it. payment sent
3430 2013-04-09 21:40:26 pacpac has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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3433 2013-04-09 21:42:36 <jh2o2389> any libitcoin guys around?
3434 2013-04-09 21:42:48 rcknight has joined
3435 2013-04-09 21:43:44 <MC1984_> libcoin or libbitcoin?
3436 2013-04-09 21:43:48 rottenchris has joined
3437 2013-04-09 21:43:49 <BlueMatt> TD: did you just use bitcoin signmessage-using-address for signing the release announce?
3438 2013-04-09 21:43:51 samholmes has joined
3439 2013-04-09 21:43:52 <samholmes> When i close bitcoin-qt, I cannot bring the window back up on a Mac
3440 2013-04-09 21:43:54 <TD> yes
3441 2013-04-09 21:44:08 <jh2o2389> I try to compile the package. After the cppdb (libpq was successfull linked), I dunno where to find the make targets, or an ./configure script.
3442 2013-04-09 21:44:22 <BlueMatt> heh
3443 2013-04-09 21:44:23 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3444 2013-04-09 21:44:35 <TD> might as well use it for something, right? :)
3445 2013-04-09 21:44:43 <BlueMatt> I suppose
3446 2013-04-09 21:44:52 <TD> although i suspect my google.com credentials are more secure than a private key on my computer. at least for as long as i work there.
3447 2013-04-09 21:44:54 * BlueMatt goes to the chain to see if that address has been used...
3448 2013-04-09 21:45:15 i2pRelay has joined
3449 2013-04-09 21:45:16 <samholmes> How do I open the bitcoin-qt window?
3450 2013-04-09 21:45:20 <MC1984_> congrats on the new bitcoinj release TD :)
3451 2013-04-09 21:45:24 <MC1984_> the changelog is great
3452 2013-04-09 21:45:29 <jh2o2389> MC1984_: libbitcoin
3453 2013-04-09 21:45:38 rottenchris has left ()
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3455 2013-04-09 21:45:44 <TD> thanks
3456 2013-04-09 21:45:50 rottenchris has left ()
3457 2013-04-09 21:46:07 <BlueMatt> yes, congrats TD, sorry I didnt have time to do as much as I would have liked on FV
3458 2013-04-09 21:46:11 someonesomewhere has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3459 2013-04-09 21:46:13 <MC1984_> jh2o2389 libbitcoin was developed by genjix who does not actively maintain it anymore i belive
3460 2013-04-09 21:46:14 <BlueMatt> the sync time is amazing!
3461 2013-04-09 21:46:44 <cuqa> mh, bitcoins got stolen and after some redirection most of the coins landed at same address.. how likely would you think it is the hacker's address? :| http://666kb.com/i/cd3862d7m8p0e6v47.png
3462 2013-04-09 21:46:47 <TD> it took 2.5 years but we finally got there. and great though jan is, down with bitcoinspinner! :)
3463 2013-04-09 21:46:53 <jh2o2389> MC1984_: yes, this is what it looks like.
3464 2013-04-09 21:46:55 <MC1984_> and he hasnt been in here for like a year
3465 2013-04-09 21:47:05 <jh2o2389> MC1984_: ah okay.
3466 2013-04-09 21:47:14 <MC1984_> there is another called libcoin but i dont know much about that
3467 2013-04-09 21:47:24 <sipa> libcoin is a heave refactor of the satoshi code
3468 2013-04-09 21:47:29 rottenchris has joined
3469 2013-04-09 21:47:33 <BlueMatt> TD: heh, down with centralized clients indeed!
3470 2013-04-09 21:47:34 diki has joined
3471 2013-04-09 21:47:43 <diki> is bitcointalk getting DDoS-ed? really slow here.
3472 2013-04-09 21:47:44 rottenchris has left ()
3473 2013-04-09 21:47:55 <sipa> TD: congrats, looks like a major release :)
3474 2013-04-09 21:48:02 <jh2o2389> MC1984_: i noticed, thought of the documentation libbitcoin was more developed.
3475 2013-04-09 21:48:04 <TD> diki: i think it's just really busy and not very scalable
3476 2013-04-09 21:48:09 <TD> sipa: thanks! :)
3477 2013-04-09 21:48:14 E_mE_ has joined
3478 2013-04-09 21:48:21 * BlueMatt needed another sticker on his laptop -> bitcoin developer sticker, anyone want one?
3479 2013-04-09 21:48:28 <BlueMatt> (specifically those who are physically nearby...)
3480 2013-04-09 21:48:36 <sipa> BlueMatt: give me one next month :p
3481 2013-04-09 21:48:39 <BlueMatt> will do
3482 2013-04-09 21:48:46 <diki> TD:Or Theymost is CPU-mining :trollface:
3483 2013-04-09 21:48:47 <BlueMatt> (had to order like 6 so...)
3484 2013-04-09 21:48:50 <MC1984_> yea i remember he spent a while doing the dox, then some bad stuff happened and he kind of stays out of the way now
3485 2013-04-09 21:48:51 <diki> *theymos
3486 2013-04-09 21:48:55 rottenchris has joined
3487 2013-04-09 21:49:07 <TD> BlueMatt: i call dibs on one
3488 2013-04-09 21:49:12 <jh2o2389> who ever this guy was/is, he is very good.
3489 2013-04-09 21:49:20 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: want one?
3490 2013-04-09 21:49:24 <BlueMatt> TD: ack
3491 2013-04-09 21:49:28 qwebirc1040109 has joined
3492 2013-04-09 21:49:46 <TD> jh2o2389: where are the docs for libbitcoin? are they online anywhere?
3493 2013-04-09 21:49:55 * TD is competitive about docs
3494 2013-04-09 21:50:03 <MC1984_> jh2o2389 http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/video/2013/mar/22/bitcoin-currency-video
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3497 2013-04-09 21:50:28 <jh2o2389> topi`: not a lot of but, the known overview is good: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=30646.0
3498 2013-04-09 21:50:36 <jh2o2389> topi`: sorry
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3504 2013-04-09 21:51:09 <TD> cool
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3508 2013-04-09 21:51:45 <TD> yes that does look nice
3509 2013-04-09 21:51:51 <TD> though it seems like more design doc than doc
3510 2013-04-09 21:52:05 <jh2o2389> topi`: and there is the readme: https://github.com/spesmilo/libbitcoin/blob/master/README and the docs folder at https://github.com/spesmilo/libbitcoin/tree/master/doc
3511 2013-04-09 21:52:17 <jh2o2389> brr, damn, sorry once again.
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3514 2013-04-09 21:52:57 <Jere_Jones> I've been looking at the scripting language for transactions and one thing I can't find is how to integrate a timestamp into the script. For example, this private key can claim the output unless a certain timestamp has passed then a different private key can claim the output. Any thoughts on how that could be done?
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3521 2013-04-09 21:53:56 <gmaxwell> Jere_Jones: the system was intentionally constructed so you couldn't do that. Otherwise you'd have problems where a txn that fell out of the chain during a reorg couldn't be placed back in.
3522 2013-04-09 21:54:12 <jh2o2389> TD: also, there were some forks of libbitcoin (as far I understand) at the old git place at: https://gitorious.org/libbitcoin/libbitcoin
3523 2013-04-09 21:54:14 Azelphur_ has joined
3524 2013-04-09 21:54:15 <gmaxwell> (perhaps this was not the best tradeoff to make and it will be addressed in the futureâ ... but thats how it is today)
3525 2013-04-09 21:54:30 starsoccer_ has joined
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3528 2013-04-09 21:54:40 <TD> it would also make transactions invalid at a later date, triggering re-orgs
3529 2013-04-09 21:54:46 <TD> scripts have to be pure functions of their inputs
3530 2013-04-09 21:54:56 blackoutx90 has joined
3531 2013-04-09 21:54:57 <Jere_Jones> Hmm....
3532 2013-04-09 21:55:23 <gmaxwell> TD: you could use the blocks header time as the only accessible time. That would be acceptable against that particular issue.
3533 2013-04-09 21:55:33 <Jere_Jones> That makes what I had in mind much more difficult... if not impossible.
3534 2013-04-09 21:55:41 devDelay_ is now known as devDelay
3535 2013-04-09 21:55:42 starsoccer_ is now known as starsoccer
3536 2013-04-09 21:55:43 E_mE_ is now known as E_mE
3537 2013-04-09 21:55:58 <jh2o2389> MC1984_: sorry, the link is not working for me. I try later. Thank you.
3538 2013-04-09 21:56:00 <TD> yeah, hence nLockTime. i bet Jere_Jones has a use case in mind that doesn't work for that though
3539 2013-04-09 21:56:11 <Jere_Jones> True.
3540 2013-04-09 21:56:12 starsoccer is now known as Guest50598
3541 2013-04-09 21:56:13 <gmaxwell> Jere_Jones: if you are willing to trust a quorum of external oracles you can do ~anything, so perhaps thats an option for you.
3542 2013-04-09 21:56:30 median^ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3543 2013-04-09 21:56:38 Mylon has joined
3544 2013-04-09 21:56:39 <gmaxwell> TD: well, nlocktime only allows locking in one directionâ which solves the issue I pointed out.
3545 2013-04-09 21:56:44 <TD> yeah
3546 2013-04-09 21:56:55 <TD> Jere_Jones: what do you really want to do? (see topic)
3547 2013-04-09 21:56:57 chorao has quit ()
3548 2013-04-09 21:58:42 <mbasimov> ;;ident RBecker
3549 2013-04-09 21:58:43 <gribble> Nick 'RBecker', with hostmask 'RBecker!~Ryan@unaffiliated/rbecker', is identified as user RBecker, with GPG key id 8B2731A00F23E23F, key fingerprint 2C423D6DAE3CE952191B66EC8B2731A00F23E23F, and bitcoin address 167CDYTpqpyBcPJrzpxgRFv2AvXi4YBK6o
3550 2013-04-09 21:58:58 <Jere_Jones> I was thinking of a way to pass on bitcoins in the case of death or escrow that could be automatically reverted.
3551 2013-04-09 21:58:59 techlife has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3552 2013-04-09 21:59:04 <sipa> mbasimov: not here, please
3553 2013-04-09 21:59:31 <Jere_Jones> There's a lot of flexibility built into the scripting stuff and I'm really just trying to think of interesting things that could be done.
3554 2013-04-09 21:59:34 <Eliel> it shows here http://www.bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/ that there's been just 79 blocks last 24 hours. Is that correct?
3555 2013-04-09 21:59:42 <Jere_Jones> ... and then *do* them. :)
3556 2013-04-09 21:59:56 dev-Minning has joined
3557 2013-04-09 22:00:09 <dev-Minning> Hi
3558 2013-04-09 22:00:13 john5223 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3559 2013-04-09 22:00:25 <TD> Jere_Jones: v
3560 2013-04-09 22:00:28 <TD> Jere_Jones: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_4:_Using_external_state
3561 2013-04-09 22:00:33 <TD> Jere_Jones: that's the very example given on that page
3562 2013-04-09 22:00:35 toffoo has joined
3563 2013-04-09 22:00:51 <Jere_Jones> Dude! That is exactly what I was looking for! Thanks!
3564 2013-04-09 22:00:52 richcollins has joined
3565 2013-04-09 22:01:13 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3566 2013-04-09 22:01:18 <richcollins> My bitcoin-qt client thinks it broadcast a transactions but it hasn't gone out
3567 2013-04-09 22:01:20 <richcollins> What can I do?
3568 2013-04-09 22:01:24 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
3569 2013-04-09 22:02:07 <richcollins> ah wait maybe it finally sent them
3570 2013-04-09 22:02:08 i2pRelay has joined
3571 2013-04-09 22:02:20 <richcollins> for over an hour it said "Status: 0/unconfirmed"
3572 2013-04-09 22:02:28 <richcollins> and blockchain.info had no record of it
3573 2013-04-09 22:02:35 <richcollins> but it looks like it went out
3574 2013-04-09 22:02:52 <dev-Minning> I'm interested in developing a mining client. Anyone knows a link to source code for a mining client?
3575 2013-04-09 22:03:10 <sipa> dev-Minning: for what hardware?
3576 2013-04-09 22:03:20 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
3577 2013-04-09 22:03:25 AusBitBank has joined
3578 2013-04-09 22:03:25 ahbritto has joined
3579 2013-04-09 22:03:25 BenderCoin__ has joined
3580 2013-04-09 22:03:25 B0g4r7_ has joined
3581 2013-04-09 22:03:25 harriorri1 has joined
3582 2013-04-09 22:04:36 <dev-Minning> i just need to know the algorithm from a working client so i can improve it my self.
3583 2013-04-09 22:04:38 cheako has joined
3584 2013-04-09 22:04:50 <sipa> for what hardware?
3585 2013-04-09 22:04:51 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3586 2013-04-09 22:05:10 rdponticelli_ is now known as rdponticelli
3587 2013-04-09 22:05:24 <dev-Minning> going to dev for amd opencl
3588 2013-04-09 22:05:32 <BlueMatt> actually, sipa could bring extra stickers to the conference, anyone else want to claim one of the remaining ones?
3589 2013-04-09 22:05:47 <sipa> how many do you have?
3590 2013-04-09 22:05:55 <BlueMatt> 6-mine
3591 2013-04-09 22:06:11 <dev-Minning> oh you sipa you bot
3592 2013-04-09 22:06:22 viperhr1 has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
3593 2013-04-09 22:06:23 <sipa> dev-Minning: heh?
3594 2013-04-09 22:06:32 MashRinx has joined
3595 2013-04-09 22:06:42 viperhr1 has joined
3596 2013-04-09 22:07:04 <sipa> dev-Minning: for OpenCL miners... look at poclbm or DiabloMiner or cgminer or whatever is popular these days
3597 2013-04-09 22:07:13 techlife has joined
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3603 2013-04-09 22:07:58 <dev-Minning> thanks
3604 2013-04-09 22:07:59 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3605 2013-04-09 22:08:26 Diapolis has joined
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3608 2013-04-09 22:08:53 truo has joined
3609 2013-04-09 22:08:53 <helo> richcollins: if you don't care about privacy, you can share the txid and someone will tell you if they see it
3610 2013-04-09 22:09:01 techlife has joined
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3612 2013-04-09 22:09:07 <richcollins> helo: it showed up
3613 2013-04-09 22:09:26 <richcollins> I did a lot of small transactions all back to back and I think its just taking some time for the client to broadcast them all
3614 2013-04-09 22:09:27 <helo> ahh good
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3617 2013-04-09 22:09:39 Namworld has quit ()
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3619 2013-04-09 22:09:49 <richcollins> I thought it would send them all at once but it didn't apparently
3620 2013-04-09 22:09:49 <sipa> richcollins: they all get broadcast immediately
3621 2013-04-09 22:09:54 ToryJujube has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
3622 2013-04-09 22:10:09 techlife has joined
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3624 2013-04-09 22:10:11 <richcollins> sipa: I was offline when I sent them
3625 2013-04-09 22:10:17 robbak has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3626 2013-04-09 22:10:18 <richcollins> sipa: I restarted the client
3627 2013-04-09 22:10:19 ToryJujube has joined
3628 2013-04-09 22:10:23 <sipa> in that case, it won't of course
3629 2013-04-09 22:10:30 <richcollins> the client showed them as "unconfirmed" as though it had sent them
3630 2013-04-09 22:10:31 <helo> blockchain.info has been weird lately... not showing some normal transactions, not broadcasting any received transactions
3631 2013-04-09 22:10:35 i2pRelay has joined
3632 2013-04-09 22:10:36 <sipa> they may get resent upon restart, but it may take some time
3633 2013-04-09 22:10:40 techlife has joined
3634 2013-04-09 22:10:41 techlife has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
3635 2013-04-09 22:10:42 <richcollins> but they didn't start showing up on blockchain.info for 2 hours
3636 2013-04-09 22:10:47 <sipa> richcollins: it forgets to track them if you restart
3637 2013-04-09 22:10:53 <richcollins> and only some of them are confirmed
3638 2013-04-09 22:10:59 one_zero has joined
3639 2013-04-09 22:11:06 <sipa> richcollins: so after restart 'unconfirmed' means nothing - they may or may not have been broadcast
3640 2013-04-09 22:11:12 techlife has joined
3641 2013-04-09 22:11:13 <richcollins> sipa: OK but they should all be sent eventually?
3642 2013-04-09 22:11:13 techlife has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
3643 2013-04-09 22:11:17 <sipa> yes
3644 2013-04-09 22:11:26 <richcollins> sipa: Thanks good to talk to someone that knows the code ;-)
3645 2013-04-09 22:11:47 techlife has joined
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3647 2013-04-09 22:12:01 dev-parallel has joined
3648 2013-04-09 22:12:16 <jh2o2389> MC1984_: maybe it was http://www.dctp.tv/filme/cpe-amir-taaki/
3649 2013-04-09 22:12:21 techlife has joined
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3651 2013-04-09 22:12:36 Diapolis has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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3654 2013-04-09 22:13:17 <MC1984_> yeah thats him
3655 2013-04-09 22:13:25 Guest40588 has joined
3656 2013-04-09 22:13:26 <MC1984_> the guardian video is much more recent
3657 2013-04-09 22:13:29 techlife has joined
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3659 2013-04-09 22:13:32 <Goonie_> Bitcoin Wallet 3.0 Release Candidate: http://code.google.com/p/bitcoin-wallet/downloads/list
3660 2013-04-09 22:13:38 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3661 2013-04-09 22:13:47 <sipa> Goonie_: \o/
3662 2013-04-09 22:13:53 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
3663 2013-04-09 22:14:06 techlife has joined
3664 2013-04-09 22:14:14 dev-Minning has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3665 2013-04-09 22:14:21 <TD> ^5
3666 2013-04-09 22:14:31 bigtip has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3667 2013-04-09 22:15:16 <MC1984_> should i not let google "update" me to 2.49
3668 2013-04-09 22:15:45 <MC1984_> when i gots the 3 beta, i wish play was clever enough to just read package versions or somthing
3669 2013-04-09 22:16:07 <Goonie_> MC1984: would be nice to test the RC, if you can
3670 2013-04-09 22:16:07 <diki> Goonie_:how much ram does it use?
3671 2013-04-09 22:16:20 <diki> I find my android vanity address generator to use over 11
3672 2013-04-09 22:16:51 <diki> no, actually 13
3673 2013-04-09 22:16:53 <Goonie_> diki: depends very much on the number of unspent outputs/transactions. It can work on 32 MB class devices, Android 2.3 and above
3674 2013-04-09 22:18:06 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3675 2013-04-09 22:18:36 jercos_ is now known as jercos
3676 2013-04-09 22:19:00 i2pRelay has joined
3677 2013-04-09 22:19:01 <MC1984_> i can only test by sending a few testcoins to whoevr wants them
3678 2013-04-09 22:20:18 MobPhone_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3679 2013-04-09 22:21:00 nomailing has joined
3680 2013-04-09 22:22:01 Mr_G has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3681 2013-04-09 22:22:14 <MC1984_> does it wakelock the cpu when th screen is of or anything?
3682 2013-04-09 22:22:15 nsillik has joined
3683 2013-04-09 22:22:53 bitcoin-dev307 has joined
3684 2013-04-09 22:23:15 bitcoin-dev307 has quit (Client Quit)
3685 2013-04-09 22:23:22 MobPhone has joined
3686 2013-04-09 22:23:42 <Goonie_> MC1984: it does, as long as the service is syncing the blockchain
3687 2013-04-09 22:23:49 <Goonie_> (which is not very long on 3.0)
3688 2013-04-09 22:24:04 <MC1984_> ok
3689 2013-04-09 22:24:05 <jh2o2389> MC1984_: I dont know the code, but I think yes. The stdout fd seems always written.
3690 2013-04-09 22:24:36 <MC1984_> i think i might have had trouble getting it to stay gone a couple of times when explicitly disconnecting
3691 2013-04-09 22:24:37 bigti[ has joined
3692 2013-04-09 22:24:37 bigti[ is now known as bigtip
3693 2013-04-09 22:24:49 <MC1984_> or maybe that was v2 series
3694 2013-04-09 22:24:57 lodse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3695 2013-04-09 22:25:07 LainZ has joined
3696 2013-04-09 22:25:08 <MC1984_> sync on power is not enabled
3697 2013-04-09 22:26:08 <MC1984_> it it normal for it to stay in the renect apps popup thing after disconnecting and the connection meter is also gone?
3698 2013-04-09 22:26:14 <Goonie_> well it tries to stay up to date of course
3699 2013-04-09 22:26:21 <helo> are there enough 0.8 nodes for the bloom filtering to be effective?
3700 2013-04-09 22:26:31 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3701 2013-04-09 22:26:38 <MC1984_> id say yes
3702 2013-04-09 22:26:45 <Goonie_> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/branches.html
3703 2013-04-09 22:26:50 BGL has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3704 2013-04-09 22:26:56 <Goonie_> 66%
3705 2013-04-09 22:27:25 i2pRelay has joined
3706 2013-04-09 22:27:46 <MC1984_> i cant beleive there are still 200 0.3 nodes
3707 2013-04-09 22:28:01 <MC1984_> they must be actually forgotten about by their owners
3708 2013-04-09 22:28:17 <Goonie_> well ubuntu precise comes with bitcoin 0.3.x
3709 2013-04-09 22:28:17 <sipa> MC1984_: i assume most are 0.3.24?
3710 2013-04-09 22:28:27 <sipa> indeed, because of what Goonie_ said
3711 2013-04-09 22:28:30 <helo> possibly still cpu mining? :)
3712 2013-04-09 22:28:38 <sipa> they're in for a surprise after may 15
3713 2013-04-09 22:28:44 <sipa> i wonder if they'll notice then
3714 2013-04-09 22:28:49 <helo> oh, ubuntu
3715 2013-04-09 22:28:51 <MC1984_> probably not tbh
3716 2013-04-09 22:28:53 resistor__ has joined
3717 2013-04-09 22:29:03 BlackPrapor has joined
3718 2013-04-09 22:29:07 <MC1984_> theres no avoiding it, it has to be done
3719 2013-04-09 22:29:31 <BlueMatt> 0.3.24 should have been alert'd and put in safe mode a long time ago imho...
3720 2013-04-09 22:29:55 <ali1234> has anyone filed a bug about it on launchpad? if not i will
3721 2013-04-09 22:30:03 <sipa> alerts can't put a node into safe mode, can it?
3722 2013-04-09 22:30:04 <D34TH> BlueMatt: i think jenkins is stuck again
3723 2013-04-09 22:30:05 <Goonie_> Has someone tried to get a freeze exception for the ubuntu package? I think it could be upgraded to 0.7 + some config changes to allow for at least 1 MB blocks
3724 2013-04-09 22:30:28 <BlueMatt> ali1234: I believe debian marked the bug luke filed years ago as "NOTABUG" despite him pointing out several CSVs on such old versions...
3725 2013-04-09 22:30:42 <ali1234> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/precise/+source/bitcoin/+bug/1159832
3726 2013-04-09 22:30:49 MaxSan has joined
3727 2013-04-09 22:30:56 <BlueMatt> TD: ever seen this: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/266/console (at bottom)
3728 2013-04-09 22:30:58 <sipa> BlueMatt: comma separated values? *ducks*
3729 2013-04-09 22:31:00 <gmaxwell> sipa: in very old versions, IIRC, all alerts activated safe mode.
3730 2013-04-09 22:31:06 <BlueMatt> sipa: yes...
3731 2013-04-09 22:31:08 <sipa> gmaxwell: yes, but that was before 0.3.24
3732 2013-04-09 22:31:12 <sipa> afaik
3733 2013-04-09 22:31:13 <gmaxwell> Right.
3734 2013-04-09 22:31:24 <BlueMatt> really, did we remove safe mode then?
3735 2013-04-09 22:31:28 <sipa> no
3736 2013-04-09 22:31:36 <sipa> it's just not triggered by alerts
3737 2013-04-09 22:31:38 <BlueMatt> how does it trigger?
3738 2013-04-09 22:31:41 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: it's triggered by rejecting the longest chain now.
3739 2013-04-09 22:31:44 <BlueMatt> ahh
3740 2013-04-09 22:31:54 volante has joined
3741 2013-04-09 22:31:58 tyn has joined
3742 2013-04-09 22:32:06 <BlueMatt> D34TH: thanks
3743 2013-04-09 22:32:26 <ali1234> Goonie_: yes, someone has, see link. looks like there is progress
3744 2013-04-09 22:32:32 <TD> BlueMatt: how old is that?
3745 2013-04-09 22:32:39 <sipa> well, "will stop working after may 15" is a pretty good reason to either remove it or update it...
3746 2013-04-09 22:32:40 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3747 2013-04-09 22:33:03 <sipa> juli 8, 2011
3748 2013-04-09 22:33:10 <TD> BlueMatt: i don't see any checkState() in the current connectTo()
3749 2013-04-09 22:33:51 <BlueMatt> TD: ahh, it maybe fairly old
3750 2013-04-09 22:33:53 <gmaxwell> For a while the debian people refused to update because the unit tests failed on big endian systems after we added some unit tests. But I think that particular brain damage has been overcome.
3751 2013-04-09 22:33:57 <BlueMatt> TD: (like a month or two?)
3752 2013-04-09 22:34:05 <TD> could you rebase?
3753 2013-04-09 22:34:24 <TD> i suspect it was a bogus assert that i vaguely recall
3754 2013-04-09 22:34:39 <BlueMatt> TD: it happens once in maybe 10 runs, but Ill get it updated and ping you if it happens again
3755 2013-04-09 22:34:45 <BlueMatt> (I think ive only ever seen it once)
3756 2013-04-09 22:34:47 mbasimov has left ()
3757 2013-04-09 22:34:51 <BlueMatt> well, twice now
3758 2013-04-09 22:34:56 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3759 2013-04-09 22:35:50 i2pRelay has joined
3760 2013-04-09 22:35:59 <BlackPrapor> gmaxwell: is it true that ASICs made for bitcoin, could be used for mining other sha256 altcoins?
3761 2013-04-09 22:36:12 <ali1234> yes it is true
3762 2013-04-09 22:36:18 <ali1234> and in fact it has already happened
3763 2013-04-09 22:36:24 <MaxSan> it has?
3764 2013-04-09 22:36:26 <sipa> BlackPrapor: sure
3765 2013-04-09 22:36:38 <ali1234> yes, someone ran terracoin difficulty through the roof and then abandonded it
3766 2013-04-09 22:36:41 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3767 2013-04-09 22:36:42 <BlueMatt> I love how the default "I have a question" behavior is to come here and ask gmaxwell directly
3768 2013-04-09 22:36:46 <ali1234> they are currently looking at 5 blocks per day
3769 2013-04-09 22:36:49 <Luke-Jr> lol
3770 2013-04-09 22:36:53 <resistor__> haha
3771 2013-04-09 22:37:01 <BlackPrapor> ali1234: I see.. thanks for the info guys =)
3772 2013-04-09 22:37:04 <ali1234> next retarget in 50 days
3773 2013-04-09 22:37:08 <warren> Amusingly one of those Avalon's destroyed Terracoin's entire network. They released a third emergency update to change their difficulty calculation again, including a testnet-like "if no blocks in 20 minutes drop difficulty".
3774 2013-04-09 22:37:21 <Arnavion> Maybe he should change his nick to zmaxwell
3775 2013-04-09 22:37:33 <Arnavion> Then everyone will ask gribble !
3776 2013-04-09 22:37:38 Ry4an has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3777 2013-04-09 22:37:46 <BlueMatt> hah, altcoins just dont have any mining power
3778 2013-04-09 22:37:51 <gmaxwell> warren: uh... got a link to that 20 minute rule?
3779 2013-04-09 22:37:51 <sipa> let's rename that one to gmaxble
3780 2013-04-09 22:37:58 <resistor__> what are the major differences between bitcoin and all the spinoffs so far, at least, meaningful differences?
3781 2013-04-09 22:38:14 <sipa> resistor__: some constant tweaks, different PoW
3782 2013-04-09 22:38:14 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
3783 2013-04-09 22:38:22 <warren> gmaxwell: on the forum somewhere, just glanced at it
3784 2013-04-09 22:38:35 <gmaxwell> warren: 'cause the testnet implementation is insecure.
3785 2013-04-09 22:38:41 <warren> gmaxwell: not surprised =)
3786 2013-04-09 22:38:51 <warren> insecure in what way?
3787 2013-04-09 22:38:58 <ali1234> it's on terracoin.org/news
3788 2013-04-09 22:39:00 <resistor__> sipa: PoW = ? Sorry, not fully immersed in lingo yet.
3789 2013-04-09 22:39:05 <gmaxwell> It's insecure in an accidental way, but I found it in testing.
3790 2013-04-09 22:39:20 <gmaxwell> warren: you can warp the difficulty back to 1 at any point in time.
3791 2013-04-09 22:39:28 cyphurnz has joined
3792 2013-04-09 22:39:29 <gmaxwell> well, not any, at any difficulty update point.
3793 2013-04-09 22:39:45 <gmaxwell> e.g. make 1 20 minute block and the difficulty is back at 1 persistantly.
3794 2013-04-09 22:39:46 <sipa> resistor__: proof-of-work
3795 2013-04-09 22:39:50 <resistor__> oh
3796 2013-04-09 22:39:55 richcollins has joined
3797 2013-04-09 22:39:56 fishfish has joined
3798 2013-04-09 22:40:03 <resistor__> thank you
3799 2013-04-09 22:40:33 <richcollins> sipa: It appears to have sent some of the transactions but not all of them. Should I expect it to send them intermittently like this?
3800 2013-04-09 22:40:47 <richcollins> sipa: I was the one that sent offline and then restarted bitcoin-qt
3801 2013-04-09 22:40:50 <warren> gmaxwell: hah
3802 2013-04-09 22:41:19 <gmaxwell> warren: this wasn't intentional, but I found it in testing of testnet3 before release⦠but we decided it wasn't actually a problem.
3803 2013-04-09 22:41:21 <BlueMatt> how many altcoins actually use proper merged-mining?
3804 2013-04-09 22:41:58 <ali1234> ixcoin, namecoin, devcoin, i0coin, and one other i forgot
3805 2013-04-09 22:42:07 <warren> BlueMatt: AFAIK most disabled it
3806 2013-04-09 22:42:18 daveluke has quit (Quit: daveluke)
3807 2013-04-09 22:42:19 <ali1234> although it depends on your definition of "proper" i guess
3808 2013-04-09 22:42:30 <BlueMatt> well thats more than I thought...
3809 2013-04-09 22:42:38 <resistor__> litecoin, i think
3810 2013-04-09 22:42:38 <ali1234> oh wait the one other is bitcoin. derp
3811 2013-04-09 22:42:47 pyrobisq1t has quit (Quit: leaving)
3812 2013-04-09 22:42:48 <warren> BlueMatt: altcoins are not about a stable/safe network. It's really about being separate so they have a chance to pump and dump on unsuspecting speculators.
3813 2013-04-09 22:43:19 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3814 2013-04-09 22:43:21 <BlueMatt> warren: well, ok, but if you want to pump and dump you should have a reasonably safe-looking currency :)
3815 2013-04-09 22:43:34 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: mergedmining just means a bigger patch to apply, and also means that luke gets all the coins. :P
3816 2013-04-09 22:43:50 <BlueMatt> heh, ok
3817 2013-04-09 22:44:10 <gmaxwell> (luke and doublec ... the only people I've ever seen be prompt in deploying new merged mine chains that have access to any considerable amount of hashpower)
3818 2013-04-09 22:44:14 i2pRelay has joined
3819 2013-04-09 22:44:32 <warren> BlueMatt: http://dustcoin.com/mining this phenomena is observable in the "Ratio" column here. The merge minable alts aren't interesting to speculators.
3820 2013-04-09 22:44:33 <ali1234> doublec patched all those altcoins except namecoin afaik
3821 2013-04-09 22:44:49 <ali1234> dunno about any of the others
3822 2013-04-09 22:44:59 <BlueMatt> warren: hmm, wow surprising to me
3823 2013-04-09 22:45:18 <noah_> Hi, Never really figured this out, so asking again. Doing a research project on BTC for an academic paper (and possible conference presentation.) I'm a PhD student. How can I read all of the transactions in a block? Is there any easy way to simply query bitcoind? Would I be better off using a library and writing my own code? Thanks!
3824 2013-04-09 22:45:29 pyrobisqit has joined
3825 2013-04-09 22:45:53 <gmaxwell> noah_: ./bitcoind getblock <blockhash>
3826 2013-04-09 22:45:59 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
3827 2013-04-09 22:45:59 tucenaber has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3828 2013-04-09 22:46:03 <samholmes> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2499
3829 2013-04-09 22:46:05 <noah_> Will try now. Thanks!
3830 2013-04-09 22:46:06 <samholmes> Bleh!
3831 2013-04-09 22:46:08 hmmmstrange has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3832 2013-04-09 22:46:38 <BlueMatt> noah_: please post academic drafts here for review as well, if you dont mind (too many papers have come out that missed very obvious things...)
3833 2013-04-09 22:46:48 rdymac has joined
3834 2013-04-09 22:46:52 <BlueMatt> or send them to one of the developers who has time to read it
3835 2013-04-09 22:47:23 <noah_> BlueMatt: That might make sense. It will probably be hard for an academic journal to find a referee with enough background knowledge. So may need a developer's input.
3836 2013-04-09 22:47:27 <gmaxwell> Yea, peer review doesn't yet work for bitcoinâ too new a subject. Reviewers at respected journals allow papers to go out saying "The bitcoin system is a series of HTML pages" (or the like) :P
3837 2013-04-09 22:47:51 <sipa> noah_: may i ask what topic it's about?
3838 2013-04-09 22:47:53 <noah_> I'm studying statistics, and optimal decision making. Thought it would be a good idea to dig into BTC for a paper.
3839 2013-04-09 22:48:01 <sipa> cool
3840 2013-04-09 22:48:06 <gmaxwell> noah_: yea, bitcoin is rich with room for interesting ideas.
3841 2013-04-09 22:48:36 <noah_> sipa: Not sure yet. At a higher level, a simply description of pricing, trading, distribution of returns, changes in volatility throughout the day, etc. Basic stuff for the stock market, but probably fairly unknown for BTC.
3842 2013-04-09 22:49:11 <noah_> At a deeper level, perhaps something with market microstructure. Hookup to the streaming api from mtgox and look at the order book of bid/ask. See how things behave, how they change, etc.
3843 2013-04-09 22:49:12 <sipa> ok, mostly the economic side
3844 2013-04-09 22:49:25 <noah_> Right. I'm a statistician, not a cryptographer :)
3845 2013-04-09 22:49:31 <sipa> i'm not sure how relevant block chain data is for that
3846 2013-04-09 22:49:49 <noah_> block chain data is relevant to see raw transactions. "the life of a coin", etc.
3847 2013-04-09 22:50:02 <sipa> right, but that's fairly unrelated to trades
3848 2013-04-09 22:50:19 <sipa> most trading happens inside exchange sites, without corresponding bitcoin transactions
3849 2013-04-09 22:50:29 <noah_> Just read that the BTC conference has some openings for lightening talks. Was thinking of attending anyway, so am trying to find an idea for a simple presentation there.
3850 2013-04-09 22:50:38 <samholmes> I'm so boss i found a bug: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2499
3851 2013-04-09 22:50:44 <resistor__> sipa: i am trying to acquire my first few bitcoins, but, how quick is trade confirmation on an exchange like mtgox?
3852 2013-04-09 22:50:54 <noah_> @sipa: For trading, you are correct in that it wound's help much. But, fore looking at the behavior of the "system" it might be very interesting.
3853 2013-04-09 22:50:56 <sipa> resistor__: they require 6 confirmations, afaik
3854 2013-04-09 22:51:11 richcollins has joined
3855 2013-04-09 22:51:17 <sipa> noah_: sure, and there are interesting problems relating to mining and transaction propagation for example
3856 2013-04-09 22:51:22 twobitcoins_ has joined
3857 2013-04-09 22:51:25 <ali1234> i heard gox needs 8 now?
3858 2013-04-09 22:51:33 <sipa> noah_: but those are almost unrelated to trading at all
3859 2013-04-09 22:51:33 <noah_> @sipa - interesting. Would love to hear your thoughts.
3860 2013-04-09 22:51:36 <ali1234> but i might be misremembering or repeating hearsay
3861 2013-04-09 22:51:46 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3862 2013-04-09 22:51:48 <resistor__> sipa: so when these inter-exchange arbitrage situations show up on bitcoincharts, am I to assume the arb is mostly gone and that those quotes just exist because the complete transaction hasn't been booked?
3863 2013-04-09 22:52:07 <sipa> resistor__: no idea
3864 2013-04-09 22:52:13 <sipa> i'm no trader/economist
3865 2013-04-09 22:52:19 <resistor__> sipa: worth a shot, you seemed knowledgable :-)
3866 2013-04-09 22:52:29 malaimo has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3867 2013-04-09 22:52:34 <resistor__> sipa: next question -- what is meaning of life? ;-) j/k
3868 2013-04-09 22:52:36 <gmaxwell> resistor__: it's very hard to move USD between the exchanges, also not all exchanges are equally trustworthy, these are generally believed to be the reasons for the persistant differences.
3869 2013-04-09 22:52:41 i2pRelay has joined
3870 2013-04-09 22:52:42 <sipa> resistor__: 42, obvioustly
3871 2013-04-09 22:52:55 twobitcoins has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3872 2013-04-09 22:52:57 <ali1234> resistor__: what looks like a good opportunity may in fact not be after you include the cost of transfering fiat back
3873 2013-04-09 22:53:08 <sipa> obvioustly is a contraction of 'most' and 'obviously' here; definitely not a typo
3874 2013-04-09 22:53:15 <noah_> resistor: In general, arg windows close fast - so by the time its on a website, I'd assume it was gone.
3875 2013-04-09 22:53:24 <ali1234> resistor__: this is the reason btc-e is always $10 lower than gox for example
3876 2013-04-09 22:53:31 <resistor__> gmaxwell: that is what i thought, because btc-e, the shadiest looking one, had a persistent $10 difference in price for BTC vs MtGox for a long time, couldn' quite figure out why it lasted so long
3877 2013-04-09 22:53:37 <richcollins> I sent (bitcoin-qt) a bunch of small transactions when my machine was offline. After I connected some were sent but not all. The rest appear as "0/unconfirmed" but blockchain.info / block explorer doesn't see them.
3878 2013-04-09 22:53:40 <resistor__> ali: beat me to it :-)
3879 2013-04-09 22:53:41 <richcollins> Any ideas how long it will take?
3880 2013-04-09 22:53:45 <richcollins> ah sipa is back ...
3881 2013-04-09 22:53:55 <wumpus> richcollins: just wait, they will be retransmitted
3882 2013-04-09 22:53:56 <richcollins> sipa: Many still haven't been sent but some have
3883 2013-04-09 22:54:08 <richcollins> wumpus: I would expect they would all be sent at the same time, no?
3884 2013-04-09 22:54:10 <sipa> richcollins: how do you know they haven't been sent?
3885 2013-04-09 22:54:20 <resistor__> noah: so the arb market is already being tapped out by traders
3886 2013-04-09 22:54:20 <richcollins> sipa: I don't see them on blockchain.info or block explorer
3887 2013-04-09 22:54:29 <sipa> richcollins: why do you assume those sites are correct?
3888 2013-04-09 22:54:30 <richcollins> sipa: About 1/2 sent, the rest didn't
3889 2013-04-09 22:54:41 <richcollins> sipa: Because they've always been right when I've checked in the past
3890 2013-04-09 22:54:44 <sipa> they are just one node in the networ
3891 2013-04-09 22:54:50 <sipa> can you tell me a txid?
3892 2013-04-09 22:54:51 <richcollins> so it seems reasonable to expect that they would be now
3893 2013-04-09 22:55:15 <resistor__> noah: have you studied this stuff in detail so far? actually interacted with the exchanges?
3894 2013-04-09 22:56:01 <resistor__> noah: what does the correlogram for the time series of trades look like at 1-2 lags, etc.. ?
3895 2013-04-09 22:56:18 <noah_> resistor: I have not done this with BTC. Was speaking more in generalities of trading
3896 2013-04-09 22:56:28 malaimo has joined
3897 2013-04-09 22:56:49 <gmaxwell> This is not really the right place to talk trading stuff.. virtually everyone here will agressively profess ignorance on the subject.
3898 2013-04-09 22:56:59 <noah_> In general, the good arb opportunities are exploited fairly quickly. Now, that said, BTC is fairly new, so there may not be as many sophisticated traders taking advantage.
3899 2013-04-09 22:57:03 <resistor__> my apologies, gmaxwell
3900 2013-04-09 22:57:09 <noah_> @gmaxwell: Understood - no more trading talk. Sorry
3901 2013-04-09 22:57:33 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
3902 2013-04-09 22:57:36 <gmaxwell> noah_: there are a great number of bots, and people running multiple exchange trading, in fact. But ::shrugs:: yea, go find an econimist. :)
3903 2013-04-09 22:58:01 <noah_> Back to my initial question. Followed your advice and git a nice big list of transaction hashes. Now, when I try bitcoind get transaction <hash> I get an error about "invalid or non-wallet transaction id". What am I doing wrong?
3904 2013-04-09 22:58:15 rdymac has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3905 2013-04-09 22:58:17 <sipa> noah_: use getrawtransaction
3906 2013-04-09 22:58:29 <sipa> noah_: gettransaction is for querying transactions in your wallet
3907 2013-04-09 22:58:41 <sipa> noah_: also, you'll want to enable txindex=1 in your bitcoin.conf, and do a reindex
3908 2013-04-09 22:58:46 <noah_> @sipa: Ahhhh, thanks!
3909 2013-04-09 22:59:25 <noah_> getrawtransaction give me back a really long string of hexadecimal. Is that correctn?
3910 2013-04-09 22:59:27 dev-parallel has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3911 2013-04-09 22:59:35 <sipa> put a 1 behind the query
3912 2013-04-09 22:59:39 tucenaber has joined
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3914 2013-04-09 22:59:39 tucenaber has joined
3915 2013-04-09 22:59:43 <sipa> to show it in human-readable form
3916 2013-04-09 22:59:50 [\\\] has joined
3917 2013-04-09 22:59:50 <sipa> also, use bitcoind help getrawtransaction
3918 2013-04-09 22:59:58 <noah_> Sipa: BEAUTIFUL :)
3919 2013-04-09 23:00:12 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3920 2013-04-09 23:00:14 <noah_> I guess I should just explain my concept. Not sure I understand BTC well enough to make sense.
3921 2013-04-09 23:00:46 owowo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3922 2013-04-09 23:00:49 <noah_> Thought it would be interesting to choose a few coins, starting when they were mined and trace them. How many hands did they touch? Where did they go? How many pieces were they subdivided into? etc.
3923 2013-04-09 23:01:05 <noah_> So, thought that walking through the tx log (backwards?) might make sense.
3924 2013-04-09 23:01:09 i2pRelay has joined
3925 2013-04-09 23:01:28 <sipa> you can't answer how many hands they touched
3926 2013-04-09 23:01:43 <noah_> Why not?
3927 2013-04-09 23:01:54 <sipa> because bitcoin address do not correspond to human identities
3928 2013-04-09 23:02:00 <gmaxwell> noah_: sure, you can do that. Though it can be hard to draw conclusions.. there are all kinds of ways the history can be misleading, for a fun example: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139581.0 but more commonly, there are plenty of reasons why a single user would move coins multiple times.
3929 2013-04-09 23:02:08 <noah_> good point
3930 2013-04-09 23:02:08 rzoom has joined
3931 2013-04-09 23:02:13 <gmaxwell> (can do that meaning can walk the history)
3932 2013-04-09 23:02:18 pacpac has joined
3933 2013-04-09 23:02:19 <ali1234> also there's the thing about not knowing which output is the change
3934 2013-04-09 23:02:34 <noah_> @allie: very good point!
3935 2013-04-09 23:02:38 <resistor__> ali: explain that. The change?
3936 2013-04-09 23:02:56 <sipa> resistor__: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Change
3937 2013-04-09 23:02:59 <sipa> read that
3938 2013-04-09 23:03:00 <resistor__> thank you
3939 2013-04-09 23:03:10 <noah_> Hmmm. So my paper idea may not be a good one.
3940 2013-04-09 23:03:18 <sipa> noah_: also, it's possible (but not common) to do transactions where the inputs (and outputs) belong to different people
3941 2013-04-09 23:03:22 <ali1234> well there's plenty of stuff you can look at
3942 2013-04-09 23:03:32 <noah_> Anything the "group" here might think would be a useful area of study?
3943 2013-04-09 23:03:33 <sipa> noah_: well, it is common, in the case of e-wallets/exchanges, actually
3944 2013-04-09 23:03:46 Tantadruj has left ("DoubleRecall Turns Paywalls Into Advertising Dollars - NYTimes.com http://nyti.ms/odHOgy")
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3947 2013-04-09 23:06:18 <resistor__> noah: technical or trading wise?
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3951 2013-04-09 23:06:49 <noah_> resistor: For an academic research paper. My research is in statistics and predictive modeling
3952 2013-04-09 23:07:18 <noah_> I've done work with modeling stock indexes, and horse racing. (For academia, not a gambler.)
3953 2013-04-09 23:07:36 nimdAHK has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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3955 2013-04-09 23:07:40 <ali1234> noah_: https://blockchain.info/charts has a bunch of different ... things
3956 2013-04-09 23:07:48 <sipa> how about trying to come up with a model to predict evolution of transaction fees?
3957 2013-04-09 23:07:50 <resistor__> noah: perhaps look at liquidity dislocation in periods of high volatility on MtGox, is it one large sell order driving prices down, what the sells look like in terms of cutting through the order book, distribution of transaction sizes, etc.
3958 2013-04-09 23:08:22 <noah_> @sipa: Interesting. Thought TX fees were relatively constant. Please tell me more
3959 2013-04-09 23:08:26 <resistor__> noah: I am trying to assemble some data to examine these characteristics, but need more historical data. Trying to collect it.
3960 2013-04-09 23:08:41 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3961 2013-04-09 23:08:48 <resistor__> noah: do you have any sources or historical data from Gox? Or do they provide more than I thought?
3962 2013-04-09 23:08:52 <noah_> @resistor: Also an interesting topic. Don't think mtgox has a historical order book available. You'd have to start a streaming connection and record data for a while.
3963 2013-04-09 23:09:02 <resistor__> noah: Indeed.
3964 2013-04-09 23:09:08 <sipa> noah_: i have that data, every minute, the past 2 years :p
3965 2013-04-09 23:09:22 <ali1234> i have seen btc-e offer their logs for the right price :)
3966 2013-04-09 23:09:28 <noah_> @resistor: bitcoincharts allows download of some historical data from exchanges. Looks like the mtgox data is only for a few days back.
3967 2013-04-09 23:09:34 <sipa> oops
3968 2013-04-09 23:09:34 i2pRelay has joined
3969 2013-04-09 23:09:35 <noah_> @sipa. That's awesome. How did you get that??
3970 2013-04-09 23:09:46 <sipa> apparently the API i used hasn't been available fro a while
3971 2013-04-09 23:09:47 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3972 2013-04-09 23:09:53 <gmaxwell> "Ooops"
3973 2013-04-09 23:09:55 franl has joined
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3975 2013-04-09 23:10:09 Profmac has joined
3976 2013-04-09 23:10:21 <resistor__> how long does it take to sync the wallet from scratch these days?
3977 2013-04-09 23:10:40 <warren> gmaxwell: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=5164544D.7040807%40gmail.com&forum_name=terracoin-users Here's their 3rd attempt of "fixing" their difficulty.
3978 2013-04-09 23:10:44 <sipa> oh, it was shutdown a month ago
3979 2013-04-09 23:10:54 <sipa> resistor__: a wallet? or the blockchain?
3980 2013-04-09 23:11:15 rdymac has joined
3981 2013-04-09 23:11:21 <warren> "testnet will eventually allow diff=1 mining, when last block was found more than 10 mins ago ; livenet will divide diff by two under same circumstances."
3982 2013-04-09 23:11:25 <resistor__> sipa: i compiled wallet, started using it, says "synchronizing", further it gets along, the slower it gets (makes sense, I think, more transactions now than before.)
3983 2013-04-09 23:11:42 Guest40588 is now known as Uisgdlyast
3984 2013-04-09 23:12:07 <sipa> resistor__: yes, it synchronizing and validating the block chain
3985 2013-04-09 23:12:13 Uisgdlyast is now known as Guest19807
3986 2013-04-09 23:12:15 <sipa> resistor__: the wallet has fairly little to do with it
3987 2013-04-09 23:13:27 <gmaxwell> warren: yea, that looks busted, e.g. if I fork the chain back a bit I can produce a long series of minimum difficulty blocks, and if I have more hashing power than the rest, make mine longer and inflate the coin.
3988 2013-04-09 23:14:18 twobitcoins has joined
3989 2013-04-09 23:14:32 <rikur> so, I'm out of job for a couple more weeks. I have strong background in backend web services. How could I contribute to bitcoin the best?
3990 2013-04-09 23:14:46 Guest19807 is now known as Uisgdlyastd
3991 2013-04-09 23:15:42 Uisgdlyastd is now known as Uisgdlyast_
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3996 2013-04-09 23:17:05 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3997 2013-04-09 23:17:31 <rdymac> Why the other Bitcoin clients are not shown in the Choose your wallet section anymore?
3998 2013-04-09 23:18:02 i2pRelay has joined
3999 2013-04-09 23:21:03 <warren> rdymac: you mean the instawallets?
4000 2013-04-09 23:22:14 <warren> gmaxwell: oh my ... one avalon can orphan a long chain of transactions and screw over the exchange
4001 2013-04-09 23:22:15 gatita has quit (Quit: gatita)
4002 2013-04-09 23:22:16 taha has quit (Quit: Leaving)
4003 2013-04-09 23:22:38 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
4004 2013-04-09 23:23:10 <gmaxwell> rdymac: they're there, scroll down.
4005 2013-04-09 23:23:50 MashRinx has quit (Quit: Page closed)
4006 2013-04-09 23:23:51 <warren> They better hope Luke doesn't hear this.
4007 2013-04-09 23:23:59 <TD> rikur: what do you mean by backend web services?
4008 2013-04-09 23:24:09 <BlueMatt> warren: who, Luke-Jr?
4009 2013-04-09 23:24:14 <warren> =)
4010 2013-04-09 23:24:25 <TD> rikur: most web stuff in the bitcoin community is oriented around companies and the like. but if you know java you could look at helping bitcoinj.
4011 2013-04-09 23:24:46 * TD -> sleep
4012 2013-04-09 23:24:55 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
4013 2013-04-09 23:25:30 <Luke-Jr> warren: why?
4014 2013-04-09 23:25:32 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4015 2013-04-09 23:25:32 <jh2o2389> good night TD
4016 2013-04-09 23:25:33 impulse has joined
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4021 2013-04-09 23:27:52 glitch003 has joined
4022 2013-04-09 23:28:05 <glitch003> hey, how do fees work for say a 1 satoshi transaction?
4023 2013-04-09 23:28:19 <sipa> the same as for every other transaction
4024 2013-04-09 23:28:25 <sipa> fee/byte matters
4025 2013-04-09 23:29:09 <glitch003> i suppose if i saw that algorithm i could figure it out myself, huh? where can i find that algo or a general explanation of it?
4026 2013-04-09 23:30:47 <mouseofthesteppe> can you send a bitcoin from an out of sync wallet?
4027 2013-04-09 23:30:55 duckybsd has joined
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4029 2013-04-09 23:31:05 <sipa> if it already has the incoming transaction, yes
4030 2013-04-09 23:31:16 <sipa> but it's dangerous as it may already be spent and not know about that
4031 2013-04-09 23:31:35 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
4032 2013-04-09 23:31:58 <mouseofthesteppe> but if its already spent it'll show in blockchain and blockexplorer, no?
4033 2013-04-09 23:32:33 <mouseofthesteppe> I mean, if its already spent, wouldnt it just deny your payment?
4034 2013-04-09 23:32:49 <sipa> yes, but you client would get confused
4035 2013-04-09 23:32:53 <rikur> so php/ruby/python/java based backend services and the like. Yeah.. I guess I will make a couple bitcoin related websites to begin with. But I would consider it an honor to contribute directly to bitcoind
4036 2013-04-09 23:33:54 <glitch003> sipa: i see this in the GetMinFee function: if (nBytes < 10000) nMinFee = 0;
4037 2013-04-09 23:33:58 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4038 2013-04-09 23:34:01 <rikur> mouseofthesteppe: don't trust blockchain.info, the API can be spammed with fraudulent TXs. At least electrum client prevents you from making TXs if it's out of date by too much.
4039 2013-04-09 23:34:06 <glitch003> doesn't that indicate that transactions under 10k satoshis are free?
4040 2013-04-09 23:34:18 <glitch003> oh wait is nBytes the size of the tx?
4041 2013-04-09 23:34:23 <Luke-Jr> exactly
4042 2013-04-09 23:34:26 <glitch003> whoops
4043 2013-04-09 23:34:31 <glitch003> silly me
4044 2013-04-09 23:34:54 i2pRelay has joined
4045 2013-04-09 23:35:04 meLon has joined
4046 2013-04-09 23:36:49 <mouseofthesteppe> rikur: so a bitcoin-qt wallet in sync is 100% reliable, unlike third party elements like blockchain?
4047 2013-04-09 23:37:11 Prattler has joined
4048 2013-04-09 23:37:35 <glitch003> thanks for the info guys!
4049 2013-04-09 23:37:36 glitch003 has quit (Quit: glitch003)
4050 2013-04-09 23:37:50 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
4051 2013-04-09 23:38:03 <rikur> mouseofthesteppe: not 100%, but 99.99999% :)
4052 2013-04-09 23:38:06 agricocb has joined
4053 2013-04-09 23:38:22 MC-Droid has joined
4054 2013-04-09 23:38:29 <rikur> I'm not a (bitcoin) developer, I'm just thinking out louad
4055 2013-04-09 23:38:44 kalleboo has joined
4056 2013-04-09 23:39:20 nsillik has joined
4057 2013-04-09 23:40:24 meLon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4058 2013-04-09 23:41:49 pacpac has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
4059 2013-04-09 23:42:26 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4060 2013-04-09 23:42:30 pacpac has joined
4061 2013-04-09 23:43:20 i2pRelay has joined
4062 2013-04-09 23:43:38 <mouseofthesteppe> k thanks
4063 2013-04-09 23:45:45 Retik has joined
4064 2013-04-09 23:47:07 qwertyoruiop is now known as zz_qwertyoruiop
4065 2013-04-09 23:47:48 owowo has joined
4066 2013-04-09 23:48:01 <BlueMatt> ls
4067 2013-04-09 23:48:04 <BlueMatt> sorry
4068 2013-04-09 23:48:36 viperhr1 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
4069 2013-04-09 23:48:57 <noah_> Quck question about bitcoind code. I see how getmembpool queries a list of tx. Is there a way to just have them stream in without having to "pull" the list??
4070 2013-04-09 23:49:11 pacpac has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4071 2013-04-09 23:49:39 <BlueMatt> noah_: have to connect via p2p instead of rpc
4072 2013-04-09 23:49:55 <noah_> @blueMatt: what is the p2p?
4073 2013-04-09 23:50:10 <BlueMatt> ie the protocol nodes use to talk to each other instead of the rpc client
4074 2013-04-09 23:50:51 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4075 2013-04-09 23:51:17 WKNiGHT has quit ()
4076 2013-04-09 23:51:17 WKNiGHT- is now known as WKNiGHT
4077 2013-04-09 23:51:26 richweskus has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
4078 2013-04-09 23:51:46 i2pRelay has joined
4079 2013-04-09 23:51:46 WKNiGHT is now known as Guest39891
4080 2013-04-09 23:51:54 richweskus has joined
4081 2013-04-09 23:52:09 <noah_> @blueMatt: How do I access the p2p??
4082 2013-04-09 23:52:39 <BlueMatt> you'll have to use a library or write your own
4083 2013-04-09 23:52:58 <BlueMatt> if you know java, bitcoinj is a good bet
4084 2013-04-09 23:53:19 <noah_> Don't do java. Anything in C+_
4085 2013-04-09 23:53:23 <noah_> C++
4086 2013-04-09 23:53:26 <noah_> Or perl ?
4087 2013-04-09 23:53:31 <BlueMatt> ahh, well you can probably just modify bitcoind
4088 2013-04-09 23:53:40 meefozio has joined
4089 2013-04-09 23:53:55 <BlueMatt> throw in some hooks in CTxMemPool...
4090 2013-04-09 23:55:20 nomailing has quit (Quit: nomailing)
4091 2013-04-09 23:56:07 <volante> can someone please link me to where i can read about how blocks are timestamped, who decides the timestamp and how other peers verify that the time was correct?
4092 2013-04-09 23:57:46 Irencus has quit ()
4093 2013-04-09 23:57:50 marketanarchist has joined
4094 2013-04-09 23:58:07 <lianj> the miner inserts his system time in there. timestamps are valid within a range. there is also something called adjusted time instead of machines system time
4095 2013-04-09 23:58:22 <marketanarchist> can someone please explain why satoshi chose to set the retarget rate to the rediculously high 2000 blocks
4096 2013-04-09 23:59:03 vigilyn2 has joined
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4099 2013-04-09 23:59:18 Pachuco has joined