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   4 2013-04-10 00:00:48 <volante> lianj: im trying to understand how the miner couldnt put in a timestamp thats really far into the future, in order to reduce difficulty? or vise versa to increase difficulty.
   5 2013-04-10 00:00:49 <grlpx> I heard that the bitcoins could be used for something else than "electronic money", if accumulated in great number. Is it possible? Maybe some weapon or some kind of scientific achievement
   6 2013-04-10 00:01:16 <volante> and what if their system time is just wrong
   7 2013-04-10 00:01:16 <grlpx> are there any good cospiracy theories about bitcoins?
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   9 2013-04-10 00:01:57 <lianj> marketanarchist: two weeks
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  11 2013-04-10 00:02:14 <BlueMatt> volante: blocks are not accepted if the timestamp is too far in the future
  12 2013-04-10 00:02:39 <lianj> volante: if their system time is too wrong none of his blocks are accepted
  13 2013-04-10 00:02:59 <volante> so if for some probabilistic freak occurence, a block took too long to mine, the network would halt? until someone mined a block with a fake timestamp to get it going again?
  14 2013-04-10 00:03:02 <sipa> grlpx: take it elsewhere
  15 2013-04-10 00:03:04 <Uisgdlyast_> Electrum question: whats the diff btwn the receving and change addresses?
  16 2013-04-10 00:03:21 <grlpx> please reply, my boss is asking an article about that. It should be credible
  17 2013-04-10 00:03:22 <sipa> Uisgdlyast_: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Change
  18 2013-04-10 00:03:39 <sipa> grlpx: conspiracy theories are off-topic here
  19 2013-04-10 00:03:42 <marketanarchist> sure ok he set it for two weeks but that makes it suceptable to increasing the hashing power then dropping the hashing power at the next retarget and causing the blocks to come in really slowly, which could cause miners to lose interest and cause a feedback loop leading to the death of bitcoin
  20 2013-04-10 00:03:52 <marketanarchist> asic saves us from this but it could have happened before asic
  21 2013-04-10 00:03:59 <marketanarchist> so why not retarget every 100 blocks or every 10 blocks
  22 2013-04-10 00:04:20 <sipa> marketanarchist: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/9305/why-not-retarget-on-every-block/9308#9308
  23 2013-04-10 00:04:37 <marketanarchist> thanks sipa that sounds like exactly what i was looking for
  24 2013-04-10 00:04:45 <grlpx> sipa: if you don't want to help at least leave other people the opportunity to help
  25 2013-04-10 00:04:52 <sipa> grlpx: not in this channel, please
  26 2013-04-10 00:05:03 <sipa> this is about development
  27 2013-04-10 00:05:24 <lianj> grlpx: sipa is satoshi, just tell that your boos
  28 2013-04-10 00:05:26 <lianj> *boss
  29 2013-04-10 00:05:42 <marketanarchist> im going to pm you sipa
  30 2013-04-10 00:05:44 <sipa> ...
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  32 2013-04-10 00:06:01 <sipa> marketanarchist: just ask here
  33 2013-04-10 00:06:35 <marketanarchist> ok so here is the answer to why not retarget every block Retargeting on every block would result in ridiculous oscillation in the difficulty level when there's a hot streak and several blocks are found in short succession or a cold streak where a block isn't found for a long period.
  34 2013-04-10 00:06:54 <sipa> that's incorrect, see my comment below
  35 2013-04-10 00:07:00 <marketanarchist> its a good answer, so my thought was, retarget evey 8 blocks and set it so that each retarget can only correct a maximum of 10% up or down
  36 2013-04-10 00:07:24 <Uisgdlyast_> so if I want someone to send me money I use the receiving addresses?
  37 2013-04-10 00:07:39 <sipa> Uisgdlyast_: you use a receive address to receive money
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  39 2013-04-10 00:07:55 <marketanarchist> then it would be highly adaptive but also would prevent ossilations
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  41 2013-04-10 00:08:11 <sipa> marketanarchist: it would still be relatively unstable, actually
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  51 2013-04-10 00:10:34 <warren> marketanarchist: Just use ppcoin's horrible centralized solution. =P
  52 2013-04-10 00:10:53 <Uisgdlyast_> ok, well i used one of those sites to test people in using btc but didnt get anything and its been a day... any sites that send small amounts so people better learn the technology?
  53 2013-04-10 00:11:02 <volante> couldnt an attack with say, 10% computing power, produce 10% of blocks and give them the maximally accepted timestamp, in order to gradually keep increasing difficulty and cause the feedback loop effect?  or is there some protection against that
  54 2013-04-10 00:11:15 <Uisgdlyast_> others only computer savvy people will use it and cut off most others
  55 2013-04-10 00:11:21 <warren> Uisgdlyast_: If people want to learn, they should use testnet.  Works great on Android phone and desktops.
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  57 2013-04-10 00:11:40 <sipa> volante: the timestamp can't be more than 2 hours in the future, or less than the median of the past 11 blocks
  58 2013-04-10 00:11:46 <warren> Uisgdlyast_: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.schildbach.wallet_test&hl=en
  59 2013-04-10 00:11:51 <sipa> volante: that gives you a few hours wiggle-room, but that's it
  60 2013-04-10 00:11:59 <volante> oh i see
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  62 2013-04-10 00:13:32 <sipa> and imho it should have been a lot smaller
  63 2013-04-10 00:16:10 <Uisgdlyast_> thanks, found a poker site I was helping a guy get the bugs out... so in electrum I pick one of the many receiving addresses I had to send ti?
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  70 2013-04-10 00:17:13 <sipa> Uisgdlyast_: i consider any site that tries to determine a 'from address' from a transaction to send a refund, broken
  71 2013-04-10 00:18:37 <Uisgdlyast_> why?
  72 2013-04-10 00:18:56 <sipa> because bitcoin transactions do not have a 'from' address
  73 2013-04-10 00:19:08 <Uisgdlyast_> yeah i figured
  74 2013-04-10 00:19:17 <sipa> they have input coins, and those input coins may or may not have identifiable addresses they were previously assigned to
  75 2013-04-10 00:19:48 <sipa> using the input as a refund address will not guarantee you that it arrives back at the sender
  76 2013-04-10 00:19:50 <Uisgdlyast_> but I sent it to one of my receiving adderesses in electrum
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  78 2013-04-10 00:20:02 <Tritonio> sipa, when do they NOT have identifiable addresses? Other than the case of generation.
  79 2013-04-10 00:20:10 <Jere_Jones> Those input coins could also be coming from an address not owned by the sender, an exchange, for example.
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  81 2013-04-10 00:20:17 <sipa> Tritonio: if it's a multisig script for example
  82 2013-04-10 00:20:29 <sipa> or some other weird script
  83 2013-04-10 00:20:34 <Uisgdlyast_> and it work!
  84 2013-04-10 00:20:50 <sipa> Uisgdlyast_: that doesn't mean it's a good ide
  85 2013-04-10 00:21:02 <Luke-Jr> Uisgdlyast_: it doesn't work often
  86 2013-04-10 00:21:04 SvenDiagram has quit (Quit: SvenDiagram)
  87 2013-04-10 00:21:24 <Luke-Jr> Uisgdlyast_: and in the future, it probably won't work most of the time
  88 2013-04-10 00:21:26 saulimus has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  89 2013-04-10 00:21:31 <sipa> it will work for some wallet clients
  90 2013-04-10 00:21:36 <Uisgdlyast_> i didnt use the option to send to the same address, i used a receiving address electrum made for me
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  92 2013-04-10 00:21:42 <sipa> oh ok
  93 2013-04-10 00:21:45 <sipa> sure, that'll work
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  95 2013-04-10 00:22:47 <Uisgdlyast_> i should have kept gambling, at one point I had .2 btc's there... nothing then, now what like $40?
  96 2013-04-10 00:23:47 <Luke-Jr> Uisgdlyast_: the only outcome from "kept gambling" would be having LESS money
  97 2013-04-10 00:24:08 <sipa> at least on average
  98 2013-04-10 00:24:11 <lianj> yes, and never play bitcoin blackjack for 1btc (again)
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 104 2013-04-10 00:29:27 <mouseofthesteppe> by how many orders of magnitude is 0.8.1. faster at syncing than 0.7?
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 106 2013-04-10 00:29:50 <sipa> depends on your hardware
 107 2013-04-10 00:29:56 <BlueMatt> >9000
 108 2013-04-10 00:30:00 <mouseofthesteppe> lol
 109 2013-04-10 00:30:09 <sipa> 9000 orders of magnitude, indeed!
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 115 2013-04-10 00:34:38 <Ferroh> mouseofthesteppe, about 1-2
 116 2013-04-10 00:35:04 <Ferroh> Or, 0-2 if you have a slow network connection.
 117 2013-04-10 00:35:24 <Ferroh> or slow other things theoretically, but not so much in practice
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 120 2013-04-10 00:38:48 <vipah> Trying to build bitcoin in windows .. when compiling with static flags I am getting the following error in the QT compile log: mingw32-make.exe[1]: *** [c:/bitcoin-master/debug/bitcoin-qt_res.o] Error 1
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 147 2013-04-10 00:59:10 <noah_> Question about format of transaction in the block-chain:  I see how there are multiple outputs with values.  However, I don't know how to find the value for each of the inputs.  If I getrawtransaction for one of the inputs, I can see those outputs, but don't know which one then belongs to my first transaction.  Help
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 150 2013-04-10 01:00:12 <BlueMatt> noah_: inputs dont have the input value in the structure...you have to get the transaction they spend and then check the value of the output being spent
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 152 2013-04-10 01:01:08 <noah_> @BlueMatt:  That makes sense.  I tried that, but the previous transaction (one of the inputs for <this> one) has two outputs.  I don't know which one is the correct one.
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 154 2013-04-10 01:01:26 <noah_> If you want to see, the tx I'm testing is:  ffe03a2252e60f0305d722545b674825f541a847c20c70b90a764accf943e4b4
 155 2013-04-10 01:02:03 <noah_> Then, I picked one of the inputs to look at:  67ba33b8af0b6886eb863aa7bedd426cf0437485a53121ee6f8da5f2bbe6242b
 156 2013-04-10 01:02:22 <noah_> that input has two outputs.  Clearly, one of them is going to my main tx, but I don't know which.  How can I tell?
 157 2013-04-10 01:02:23 <BlueMatt> noah_: you should see an input as hex:index
 158 2013-04-10 01:02:37 <BlueMatt> so its prevout:whichone
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 161 2013-04-10 01:03:21 <noah_> I see a "scriptSig" with a hex parameter.  But that is a very long hex value that doesn't look  anything like a txid:  "hex" : "483045022100a6faa9681c8d78bd049fe9b1e96e4cea3f4993315a4210395b70de36d8f363d5022053150ce8d4a135cccddeaf7919cf0d3b2e11c9f7b03bcb4183085dc0c32378240141043de6a524f932d085f612a7b958c445e3ef300c0cf5cf020be8051173136c88cf7000eeebfa663614f812fa5a79b9b6a39f23c941604266baee68da8fe1852572"
 162 2013-04-10 01:03:36 <BlueMatt> the actual input should be...wait lemme look it up
 163 2013-04-10 01:04:03 <gmaxwell> noah_: look for the "txid" field.
 164 2013-04-10 01:04:20 <noah_> @gmaxwell:  Right, I see that.
 165 2013-04-10 01:04:37 realazthat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 166 2013-04-10 01:04:38 <noah_> Anybody want to look at my text tx and show me.  I can't figure out how to value the input :(
 167 2013-04-10 01:04:44 <BlueMatt> noah_: "txid" : "446b97cd2a481b877f9914181c2873da07d49bbc30aa0b421e4bae7f8bbde931",
 168 2013-04-10 01:04:44 <BlueMatt> "vout" : 1,
 169 2013-04-10 01:04:45 <BlueMatt> its vout
 170 2013-04-10 01:04:59 <BlueMatt> in vin, you get txid, vout
 171 2013-04-10 01:05:03 <noah_> Ahh.  I see bout: 0  Assume that's the first one with a zero based index???
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 173 2013-04-10 01:06:16 <BlueMatt> it should always have vout
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 175 2013-04-10 01:06:31 <gmaxwell> They're labled. .. "n" on the output side.
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 178 2013-04-10 01:07:02 <noah_> typo.  I meant "vout".  Assume that it starts with a zero
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 181 2013-04-10 01:09:28 <noah_> … And if vout = vin  we assume there is no tx fee offered??
 182 2013-04-10 01:09:33 <noah_> Cheap bastard
 183 2013-04-10 01:09:38 <BlueMatt> yes
 184 2013-04-10 01:09:45 <BlueMatt> and yes, I am
 185 2013-04-10 01:09:52 <noah_> Ha.  Doubt it was your tx
 186 2013-04-10 01:10:05 <BlueMatt> heh, probably not
 187 2013-04-10 01:10:23 <noah_> BTW - I asked earlier, but may repost from time to time to get some good ideas:
 188 2013-04-10 01:11:03 <noah_> I'm a PhD student in statistics.  Looking for some interesting ideas for a paper and/or conference presentation on BTC - preferably math or stat related. Asking in the dev group seems like a good place to get ideas, so I'm asking :)
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 193 2013-04-10 01:16:42 <jgarzik> noah_: bitcoin spending is a big ole directed graph.  Lots of fun can be had with it.
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 210 2013-04-10 01:27:32 <gmaxwell> noah_: In terms of stuff thats actually useful to us.... we'd like to better understand how well block and transaction propagation is working in the network... and how nodes rotating their peers would impact privacy and connectivity.
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 214 2013-04-10 01:28:35 <gmaxwell> In _general_ what you mostly find in bitcoin is the system itself is stastically boring, and the observed behavior is hard to do anything with because there are so many unobserved conflating factors.
 215 2013-04-10 01:28:42 <noah_> I could see why that would be interesting.  Would need some help from a dev on getting that data.  My speciality is modeling the data once we have it.
 216 2013-04-10 01:28:55 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: but Im working on that one!
 217 2013-04-10 01:29:05 <noah_> Also need to learn a lot more about how nodes and peers work.
 218 2013-04-10 01:29:39 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: on which specifically?
 219 2013-04-10 01:30:11 <noah_> Well, gmaxwell made two interesting suggestions.  But I have no idea how/where to get that data.
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 221 2013-04-10 01:31:04 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: network propagation measurement + real-world simulation using academic network
 222 2013-04-10 01:31:11 <sipa> ooooh
 223 2013-04-10 01:31:24 <BlueMatt> well propagation across one node, then simulate the whole network based on that
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 225 2013-04-10 01:32:08 <sipa> i really want to implement peer rotation, but it's sort of a gamble what the large-scale effects on the network will be
 226 2013-04-10 01:32:22 <gmaxwell> I still don't even know where to start with trying to figure out the anti-topology-mapping (pro privacy) and partition resistance (pro security) of roving  vs the privacy protection of sticky "entry guard" ish behavior that we have now.
 227 2013-04-10 01:32:53 <gmaxwell> I think the stuff sipa worked on before for rotation _sounds_ reasonably solid.
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 229 2013-04-10 01:33:06 <sipa> yes, sounds :)
 230 2013-04-10 01:33:46 <gmaxwell> well, hey, there are lots of possible ideas that I can instantly shoot holes in.
 231 2013-04-10 01:34:00 <gmaxwell> like "yea great, that will instantly partition the network, good job" :P
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 239 2013-04-10 01:37:35 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: network simulation...when I have time (next semester :()
 240 2013-04-10 01:37:40 <BlueMatt> well, probably get started during the summer
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 242 2013-04-10 01:37:58 <sipa> it's remarkable; i have several peers simultaneously requesting blocks from me
 243 2013-04-10 01:37:58 <sipa> but my upstream is just ~10 Mbit
 244 2013-04-10 01:37:58 <sipa> while if i -connect to that node myself and start syncing from it, it delivers at ~60 Mbit
 245 2013-04-10 01:37:58 <sipa> either all of them are just mobile phones
 246 2013-04-10 01:37:58 <sipa> or they're just slow :)
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 249 2013-04-10 01:38:53 <gmaxwell> sipa: or our performance sucks when the reads are spread across four locations in the chain.
 250 2013-04-10 01:39:06 <sipa> let me try to sync now then
 251 2013-04-10 01:39:41 <gmaxwell> sipa: (certantly wouldn't be surprising if the blockchain data was bigger than your cache)
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 258 2013-04-10 01:43:56 <noah_> Need to sign off.  A THOUSAND THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP TODAY.  YOU GUYS ARE AWESOME!!
 259 2013-04-10 01:45:27 <BlueMatt> we like to get people to do work we wish we had time to do :)
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 264 2013-04-10 01:48:08 <jgarzik> 'getheaders' is still served from RAM, yes?
 265 2013-04-10 01:48:11 <sipa> jgarzik: indeed
 266 2013-04-10 01:48:27 <sipa> gmaxwell: certainly pulling faster now from my public node than all other downloaders combined
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 272 2013-04-10 01:54:40 <sipa> i think we reached a new low for the quality of questions on bitcoin.so: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/9445/how-do-i-calculate-bitcoin-to-usd-manually
 273 2013-04-10 01:54:42 techlife has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 274 2013-04-10 01:55:22 <BlueMatt> sipa: wow. just...wow
 275 2013-04-10 01:56:09 * sipa zZzZ
 276 2013-04-10 01:56:09 <warren> sipa: The casinos would love to have his contact information.
 277 2013-04-10 01:56:32 brson has joined
 278 2013-04-10 01:56:56 <BlueMatt> warren: stupid people are stupid
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 280 2013-04-10 01:58:39 <kodkod> i'm running bitcoin-qt on mac with the -server arg and i've connected a miner on a computer from my local network to it.. does this mean i can now connect more miner to my bitcoin-qt and increase my Khash/s? (even from outside my network?)
 281 2013-04-10 01:59:11 pacpac has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 282 2013-04-10 01:59:20 <kodkod> and by that increasing my chances to get some bitcoins?
 283 2013-04-10 01:59:28 <BlueMatt> if you're mining with Khash you're wasting power
 284 2013-04-10 01:59:31 <BlueMatt> also, #bitcoin-mining
 285 2013-04-10 02:00:57 <kodkod> i've reached 2.4Ghash/s from that just want to understand if i'm correct about what i think
 286 2013-04-10 02:01:39 <warren> kodkod: I hear you can ask math questions on stackexchange and other people will answer them.
 287 2013-04-10 02:02:09 techlife has joined
 288 2013-04-10 02:02:31 <kodkod> warren: my confusion is about stratum and i don't think i've asked something like that
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 295 2013-04-10 02:08:51 <kodkod> never mind i got my answer :)
 296 2013-04-10 02:08:58 <kodkod> and its yes if anyone else wondered
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 302 2013-04-10 02:15:35 <jgarzik> Man, this data spam annoys me.  It curses our UTXO forever.
 303 2013-04-10 02:15:44 <jorgamund> UTXO?
 304 2013-04-10 02:15:50 <jgarzik> I wouldn't mind a "this crap is clearly unspendable" list.
 305 2013-04-10 02:16:21 jaequery has joined
 306 2013-04-10 02:16:33 <jorgamund> jgarzik:  I used to spend hours in your network driver code, btw.  Nice to see you contributing to bitcoin.  Thank you.
 307 2013-04-10 02:16:50 jaequery has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
 308 2013-04-10 02:16:51 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Don't let your inner OCD ruin your life. :P  It's really insignificant in the grand scheme of things.
 309 2013-04-10 02:17:42 jaequery has joined
 310 2013-04-10 02:18:42 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: permanent >500k RAM cost, is it not?
 311 2013-04-10 02:18:43 kodkod has left ()
 312 2013-04-10 02:18:43 <jgarzik> sigh :)
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 316 2013-04-10 02:20:44 <gmaxwell> The UTXO isn't in ram in the reference client— shouldn't generally need to be in ram elsewhere. "Online storage".  Besides, there are about 3 orders of magnitude more txouts in "1e-8 you lost the bet" outputs.
 317 2013-04-10 02:21:27 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: so you're saying it's okay if I upload my PGP private key to the blockchain?
 318 2013-04-10 02:21:35 quaz0r has joined
 319 2013-04-10 02:21:40 <Luke-Jr> :p
 320 2013-04-10 02:22:16 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: No. I'm not saying it's okay. I'm saying that worrying about the baddness thats already there isn't a good use of time, risk, etc.
 321 2013-04-10 02:23:00 PixelCrumbs has joined
 322 2013-04-10 02:23:03 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: e.g. what happens when the keeper of the clearly unspendable txout list gets ordered by a chinese court to add N korea's outputs to it?
 323 2013-04-10 02:23:44 <gmaxwell> Plus a clearly unspendable list is a wack a mole which is always too late.
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 343 2013-04-10 02:43:38 <graingert> gmaxwell: I thought China and N Korea were somewhat friendly
 344 2013-04-10 02:45:44 <gmaxwell> Not after one steals all the others bitcoin's they won't be.
 345 2013-04-10 02:46:10 <graingert> gmaxwell: :p
 346 2013-04-10 02:46:12 <gmaxwell> (I was picking politically unliked state actors there to depoliticize the argument)
 347 2013-04-10 02:46:27 <graingert> oh
 348 2013-04-10 02:46:32 <graingert> well
 349 2013-04-10 02:46:36 <gmaxwell> It's already accepted on the free internet that both of those states are evil incarnate.
 350 2013-04-10 02:46:44 <gmaxwell> So they can be foo and bar in examples.
 351 2013-04-10 02:46:53 <Luke-Jr> USA isn't on that list yet?
 352 2013-04-10 02:46:54 <jorgamund> gmaxwell:  so I'm trying this bitcoin-qt client, and I see that there are web wallets.  Do the web implementations sort of keep one consistent set of chains to speed up the "catch up" process for people who use web wallets?  Is that their general appeal?
 353 2013-04-10 02:47:13 <graingert> rage, ASCII Bernanke uses BitCoin and not Bitcoin
 354 2013-04-10 02:47:29 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: See, now I'm stuck pointing out to you that the US actually has excellent politics when it comes to online freedom and civil rights in general… and we're off on a dumb and irrelevant tangent.
 355 2013-04-10 02:47:31 <helo> is there an easy way to create an unsigned transaction for offline signing?
 356 2013-04-10 02:47:33 <graingert> Luke-Jr: no, they have a great media campaign
 357 2013-04-10 02:47:49 <graingert> helo: yes
 358 2013-04-10 02:48:00 <gmaxwell> helo: createrawtransaction, of course. For some definition of 'easy'
 359 2013-04-10 02:48:08 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: freedom and civil rights are dumb and irrelevant? :P
 360 2013-04-10 02:48:13 <helo> yeah, i wanted to avoid the possibility of sending my change to the miners
 361 2013-04-10 02:48:23 <gmaxwell> helo: then be careful!
 362 2013-04-10 02:48:31 <graingert> Luke-Jr: #godornot ?
 363 2013-04-10 02:49:11 * Luke-Jr notes this whole conversation was always off-topic
 364 2013-04-10 02:49:23 <graingert> rage, ASCII Bernanke uses BitCoin and not Bitcoin
 365 2013-04-10 02:49:31 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: They're not relevant for the point I was making.  Basically, if you establish that $someone has the authority to deep transactions unspendable (1) people will fearmonger than they're the hidden Bernanke in the system, and (2) some fool authority will try to coerce them to do something stupid, which won't work most likely but much stupidity will be had.
 366 2013-04-10 02:50:18 <graingert> people will stop making dumb transactions now that coins are worth more
 367 2013-04-10 02:50:19 robbak has joined
 368 2013-04-10 02:50:27 <graingert> and that anti spam fees are in place
 369 2013-04-10 02:50:34 runeks has joined
 370 2013-04-10 02:50:38 <gmaxwell> graingert: uh.
 371 2013-04-10 02:50:44 <Luke-Jr> graingert: sadly, the spam often pays higher fees than normal use
 372 2013-04-10 02:50:57 <gmaxwell> graingert: you mean like the hundreds of dollars in dumb transactions made a couple days ago that jeff was talking about???
 373 2013-04-10 02:51:17 <graingert> gmaxwell: bitcoins are still cheap yo?
 374 2013-04-10 02:51:21 <graingert> gmaxwell: yeah no - what?
 375 2013-04-10 02:51:41 <graingert> gmaxwell: who the bollocks did that, and how do we know they are unspendable?
 376 2013-04-10 02:52:07 <gmaxwell> graingert: we "know" because they're a bunch of comprehensible data stuffed in the scriptpubkeys.
 377 2013-04-10 02:52:10 <jgarzik> graingert: because there is a file upload/download tool built for it
 378 2013-04-10 02:52:16 <jgarzik> graingert: and stuffed in the chain
 379 2013-04-10 02:52:18 <gmaxwell> e.g. some wikileaks archive, a directory of tor childporn sites, etc.
 380 2013-04-10 02:52:43 <graingert> gmaxwell: what's the law on that?
 381 2013-04-10 02:52:54 <graingert> eg childporn in the blockchain
 382 2013-04-10 02:53:07 <graingert> I'm knowingly downloading and distributing that now?
 383 2013-04-10 02:53:07 <gmaxwell> graingert: there isn't any childporn in the blockchain, it's just URLs.
 384 2013-04-10 02:53:24 <graingert> gmaxwell: I doubt someone hasn't done it
 385 2013-04-10 02:53:27 <saracen> What happened if somebody did insert a single image, for example?
 386 2013-04-10 02:53:30 <saracen> happens*
 387 2013-04-10 02:53:44 <graingert> IANAL?
 388 2013-04-10 02:54:03 tlrobinson has joined
 389 2013-04-10 02:54:04 <helo> it would be nifty for the unlock dialog to have a "create unsigned transaction"
 390 2013-04-10 02:54:06 <gmaxwell> graingert: Then you are willing to believe just about anything then, enh?
 391 2013-04-10 02:54:11 <helo> i guess i should get right on that eh?
 392 2013-04-10 02:54:20 <helo> *button
 393 2013-04-10 02:54:39 nsillik has joined
 394 2013-04-10 02:54:40 <gmaxwell> helo: I think there should be an advanced send page that lets you both coincontrol and get unsigned transactions.
 395 2013-04-10 02:54:51 nsillik has quit (Client Quit)
 396 2013-04-10 02:55:16 RBecker is now known as rbecker
 397 2013-04-10 02:55:19 <graingert> gmaxwell: given the probabilities here
 398 2013-04-10 02:55:26 tyn has joined
 399 2013-04-10 02:55:29 <graingert> gmaxwell: people already put cp URLs
 400 2013-04-10 02:55:31 osmosis has joined
 401 2013-04-10 02:55:33 <gmaxwell> graingert: there are no obvious images in the blockchain.
 402 2013-04-10 02:55:35 fiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 403 2013-04-10 02:55:46 <graingert> gmaxwell: someone uploaded a JPG of the bitcoin logo
 404 2013-04-10 02:55:54 <gmaxwell> graingert: when?
 405 2013-04-10 02:56:20 <gmaxwell> And in any case, the position the lawyers represnting any of us would be that the decoding tool is the contraban information ... otherwise pi is illegal.
 406 2013-04-10 02:56:46 runeks_ has joined
 407 2013-04-10 02:57:04 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: what if the decoding tool is xxd?
 408 2013-04-10 02:57:08 runeks has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 409 2013-04-10 02:57:22 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: xxd isn't enough, you at least need to know _where_ to point it.
 410 2013-04-10 02:57:38 <gmaxwell> e.g. the hash of the data you're recovering.
 411 2013-04-10 02:57:44 <Luke-Jr> so the txid is the contraban?
 412 2013-04-10 02:58:03 <gmaxwell> thus the blockchain is basically just compression. The actual transmission is giving you the hash and telling you what to do with it.
 413 2013-04-10 02:58:26 <graingert> gmaxwell: 2009/2010
 414 2013-04-10 02:58:26 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: this feels like a slippery scope. we're basically saying links are illegal
 415 2013-04-10 02:58:39 <feral> > If it takes a Masters in CompSci to decode and view illegal content in the blockchain, no prosecutor is going to bother trying to bring charges against anyone in possession of it.
 416 2013-04-10 02:59:12 <petertodd> graingert: I was probably one of the first people to actually run the insert/retrieve tools that got inserted into the chain, because I'd already written a "retrieve data from the chain" tool for a previous case of someone inserted cp into the blockchain...
 417 2013-04-10 02:59:21 fiesh has joined
 418 2013-04-10 02:59:29 iceblue has joined
 419 2013-04-10 02:59:41 <petertodd> graingert: The difference that time, was it wasn't obvious, and was only published as a quickly deleted message on bitcointalk. (as far as I know)
 420 2013-04-10 02:59:52 <gmaxwell> graingert: I think you're incorrect, have a link?
 421 2013-04-10 02:59:57 <graingert> gmaxwell: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=8114.msg118480#msg118480
 422 2013-04-10 03:00:02 <petertodd> graingert: Putting the tool into the chain itself was very, very clever... trips up a script I had written watching for exactly that.
 423 2013-04-10 03:00:55 <graingert> gmaxwell: ah no 2011
 424 2013-04-10 03:01:08 <graingert> gmaxwell: not demoed though
 425 2013-04-10 03:01:13 <graingert> gmaxwell: doesn't say which TX
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 429 2013-04-10 03:02:14 <graingert> gmaxwell: sipa commented on it :p
 430 2013-04-10 03:02:21 <gmaxwell> I note that we could kill this behavior in txouts dead by (1) require P2SH, (2) require relayed transaction paying to P2SH provide the scriptpubkey with them.
 431 2013-04-10 03:03:36 <gmaxwell> (then if miners are stupid— require the scrippubkeys for the most recent blocks as a soft forking rule.
 432 2013-04-10 03:03:39 <gmaxwell> )
 433 2013-04-10 03:03:59 <graingert> gmaxwell: ah clever
 434 2013-04-10 03:04:22 <graingert> gmaxwell: where would the scrippubkeys go?
 435 2013-04-10 03:04:29 <graingert> scriptpubkeys*
 436 2013-04-10 03:04:37 <graingert> even if the miners are stupid/evil
 437 2013-04-10 03:04:50 <gmaxwell> they wouldn't they're ephemeral. nodes would store them temporarily then forget them
 438 2013-04-10 03:05:07 <graingert> gmaxwell: ah so only required for relaying blocks
 439 2013-04-10 03:05:10 <graingert> very very very clever
 440 2013-04-10 03:05:24 hsmiths has joined
 441 2013-04-10 03:05:43 <gmaxwell> Well, you could still stick in data, but it would have to be in the scriptpubkeys mined txn == prunable.
 442 2013-04-10 03:05:43 <graingert> gmaxwell: unless someone puts the pron in the scriptpubkey, then spends them
 443 2013-04-10 03:05:51 <gmaxwell> graingert: yes, but thats prunable.
 444 2013-04-10 03:05:52 <graingert> yeah prunable
 445 2013-04-10 03:06:28 <graingert> there's always the coinbase,nonce
 446 2013-04-10 03:06:32 <gmaxwell> the worst downside is you need a new address type to encode the scriptpubkey .. and then that also invalidates our primary motivation for having p2sh in the first place.
 447 2013-04-10 03:06:59 <gmaxwell> graingert: coinbase has to be done by miners. It's also technically prunable (it's a scripsig)
 448 2013-04-10 03:07:24 <gmaxwell> I'm not worried about arbritary data from miners, it's limited to 100 bytes per block in any case.
 449 2013-04-10 03:08:13 <graingert> make a transaction with lots of outputs, only count the first n bits
 450 2013-04-10 03:08:19 <graingert> of each transaction
 451 2013-04-10 03:08:22 PovAddict has joined
 452 2013-04-10 03:08:25 <graingert> where n is possible to achieve by mining
 453 2013-04-10 03:08:38 <graingert> well not mining
 454 2013-04-10 03:08:42 <graingert> but repeated hash attemts
 455 2013-04-10 03:08:46 <graingert> attempts*
 456 2013-04-10 03:08:47 <gmaxwell> oh man, even better: double-p2sh lol
 457 2013-04-10 03:08:48 <PovAddict> can I stop bitcoind from distributing the blockchain to others?
 458 2013-04-10 03:09:02 <graingert> PovAddict: firewall it?
 459 2013-04-10 03:09:05 <PovAddict> it has been pegging my uplink at 100% for *hours*
 460 2013-04-10 03:09:20 meefozio has joined
 461 2013-04-10 03:09:28 <gmaxwell> PovAddict: turn off listening and that will have pretty much exactly that effect.
 462 2013-04-10 03:09:32 <gmaxwell> PovAddict: start with listen=0
 463 2013-04-10 03:09:44 <graingert> gmaxwell: is that in settings?
 464 2013-04-10 03:11:17 deltab_ is now known as deltab
 465 2013-04-10 03:13:35 <gmaxwell> graingert: no, for some crazy reason there is no gui for it.
 466 2013-04-10 03:13:47 <graingert> gmaxwell: bug!
 467 2013-04-10 03:13:48 <PovAddict> it was also eating a gigabyte or two of RAM
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 469 2013-04-10 03:14:32 <petertodd> gmaxwell: we can already do double p2sh, p2sh is defined as Hash160...
 470 2013-04-10 03:14:55 <petertodd> gmaxwell: ripe160(sha256())
 471 2013-04-10 03:15:35 Azelphur_ is now known as Azelphur
 472 2013-04-10 03:16:08 <gmaxwell> petertodd: you beautiful man. Go respond to my post.
 473 2013-04-10 03:16:14 <gmaxwell> (on bitcoin-development)
 474 2013-04-10 03:16:53 bobbyblues has joined
 475 2013-04-10 03:18:02 <gmaxwell> petertodd: the downside is that what you suggest doesn't work with our existing p2sh addresses, since we encode the hash160 and not the sha256.
 476 2013-04-10 03:18:15 rowit has joined
 477 2013-04-10 03:18:17 <petertodd> gmaxwell: No-one uses them anyway.
 478 2013-04-10 03:18:38 osmosis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 479 2013-04-10 03:18:42 <gmaxwell> vs if we do it another way it could work with existing addresses, it would just be a very slightly different script. (e.g. HASH160 HASH160)
 480 2013-04-10 03:18:49 <petertodd> Having said that... I'm deeply, deeply skeptical about block discouragement rules. They act as a way for a majority to bully a minority.
 481 2013-04-10 03:19:40 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I mean, it would be fine as a softforking rule that was only imposed on blocks within X hours of now.
 482 2013-04-10 03:20:34 <gmaxwell> petertodd: please don't pan the idea because you're imagining something specific and bad there when I really just meant the general idea of a rule that inhibits the blocks but is temporary because its a function of data nodes will not retain.
 483 2013-04-10 03:21:23 PovAddict has left ("Konversation terminated!")
 484 2013-04-10 03:21:30 <Cryptrader> is there like a bitcoin wiki somwhere? I'd like to know a little more about forking and 51% attacks, doublespends ect... I'm not quite on the level to communicate here...
 485 2013-04-10 03:22:25 <BlueMatt> en.bitcoin.it
 486 2013-04-10 03:22:25 <gmaxwell> Cryptrader: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/
 487 2013-04-10 03:23:09 <Cryptrader> Perfect, thanks!
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 493 2013-04-10 03:26:40 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Of course, for all we can do to keep data out of the UTXO set, I suspect we'll find that people doing data crap don't actually care because what matters to them is they know it'll be stored somewhere.
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 503 2013-04-10 03:30:41 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I think it's actually a pretty material improvement, because it creates a nice marketing answer to the concern
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 505 2013-04-10 03:30:55 <gmaxwell> "it's only in the history, at most"
 506 2013-04-10 03:31:37 <petertodd> gmaxwell: See, you realize, I think the fact that the data is there is the least of our worries. The more important issue is it's yet another reason why the demand for blockspace is unlimited.
 507 2013-04-10 03:32:09 <petertodd> gmaxwell: It's my worry with timestamping - lots and lots and lots of organizations think $1/timestamp is cheap.
 508 2013-04-10 03:33:04 <gmaxwell> I consider that a sperate concern, demand for blockchain space at _some_ price is unlimited, indeed... and thats true for _so many_ different reasons that it hardly makes sense to bother enumerating them.
 509 2013-04-10 03:34:25 <petertodd> That's probably true too... people are remarkably fond of their micropayments on Bitcoin, even if as a % of economic activity it's non-existent.
 510 2013-04-10 03:34:26 <gmaxwell> What I want is a trite answer to give to OMG ILLEGAL DATA, and P2SH^2 does that— it also has the pratical improvement of pushing storage applications out of the utxo set in a way catagorically stronger than any others I've seen suggested— and completely without collateral damage, other than the complexity of deploying another address type
 511 2013-04-10 03:35:17 <petertodd> Well, don't get me wrong, I'm happy to see P2SH^2 get deployed, but it's one of many issues.
 512 2013-04-10 03:35:20 <gmaxwell> e.g. funny fee rules just mean that you screw over some legit non-datastorage uses, while failing to block high value data storage.
 513 2013-04-10 03:36:01 <gmaxwell> (not that I think your fee rule shouldn't also be deployed, but P2SH^2 could have it tuned down)
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 515 2013-04-10 03:37:29 <petertodd> My fee rule isn't based on costs to the network, it's based on a philosophy, and a pragmatic assumption about how fast fees are likely to change.
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 518 2013-04-10 03:37:48 <BlueMatt> petertodd: what fee rule?
 519 2013-04-10 03:38:19 Mobius_ has joined
 520 2013-04-10 03:38:28 <petertodd> BlueMatt: if txout value < tx fee per kb * c, don't accept the tx into your mempool
 521 2013-04-10 03:38:37 Mobius_ is now known as MobiusL
 522 2013-04-10 03:38:51 <BlueMatt> or just limit mempool size based on sane thing...
 523 2013-04-10 03:38:53 <petertodd> I picked c=1, which means that most tx's will net about 3x more value than the fees they cost to spend. (marginal bytes required to spend a txout)
 524 2013-04-10 03:39:08 <petertodd> BlueMatt: mempool size is not the issue
 525 2013-04-10 03:39:19 rg has joined
 526 2013-04-10 03:39:23 <BlueMatt> its the same net effect
 527 2013-04-10 03:39:25 <rg> thanks topic
 528 2013-04-10 03:39:32 <rg> you told me exactly what i needed to know
 529 2013-04-10 03:39:56 <petertodd> BlueMatt: No. The fee rule says "don't create txouts you can't spend without taking a loss", mempool size is just a thing to make sure people don't run out of ram.
 530 2013-04-10 03:40:10 <petertodd> BlueMatt: with an on-disk mempool, we could allow as many pending transactions as we wanted.
 531 2013-04-10 03:40:11 <rg> btw, i was wondering who i send the death threats to if the boostrap doesnt work?
 532 2013-04-10 03:40:15 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: thats addressing a differnt thing—  people are creating txouts which cost more to redeem than they are worth.  They can be technically spent but no one ever will.
 533 2013-04-10 03:40:20 <rg> ill just send it to greg
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 536 2013-04-10 03:41:07 <BlueMatt> if priority is a good metric, then it works fine...
 537 2013-04-10 03:41:18 runeks_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 538 2013-04-10 03:41:20 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: right now we treat <0.01 as dust ... but the dust fees aren't enough to prevent some abuse .. but they also prevent good use.. and they're constantly the wrong value.
 539 2013-04-10 03:41:56 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yes, hence why priority/fee algorithms can be tweaked
 540 2013-04-10 03:42:06 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: uh. priority has nothing to do with this particular question. This is about _creating_ txouts ... never spending them.
 541 2013-04-10 03:42:06 <petertodd>                   never spending them.
 542 2013-04-10 03:42:19 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Tweaking them endlessly is a waste of time, and a bad user experience.
 543 2013-04-10 03:43:32 <petertodd> Having said that, the user experience would stop being bad if we did tx-replacement by fee... that is, broadcast a tx whose fee is > the previous tx, and nodes everwhere replace the old one. (subject to incremental fee rules for anti-dos attack) Sure it allows double spends, but that's going to happen in time anyway.
 544 2013-04-10 03:43:39 iceblue has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 545 2013-04-10 03:43:44 <petertodd> Might as well get it over with and keep people using bitcoin sanely.
 546 2013-04-10 03:43:44 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: not to mention the power of priority is very limited, miners _will_ predominantly choose transactions based on fee/kb in the long run.
 547 2013-04-10 03:43:51 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: a good fee/priority algorithm can take away that possibility
 548 2013-04-10 03:43:58 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: No, it can't.
 549 2013-04-10 03:44:00 <BlueMatt> petertodd: so get it right?
 550 2013-04-10 03:44:25 andkore has joined
 551 2013-04-10 03:44:41 <petertodd> BlueMatt: If you could get an algorithm to get that right, you could also use it to trade stocks. If you can do that, I suggest you focus on the latter.
 552 2013-04-10 03:44:47 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I boggle that you think you can achieve much with priority. :(
 553 2013-04-10 03:44:52 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: hmm? if the txn ages enough, it can be economical to spend
 554 2013-04-10 03:45:02 <andkore> ok, sorry. off topic but #bitcoin is terrible. would using some sort of hash on a brain wallet phrase help any with security?
 555 2013-04-10 03:45:42 <petertodd> Indeex, I need to start a pool that mines purely by fee... specifically, not a pool actually, but a dead simple way for high-hash-rate ASIC miners who could otherwise mine solo to get blocks to solve, and have the rewards go to the address they pick.
 556 2013-04-10 03:46:01 <gmaxwell> andkore: you really really should not use a "brain wallet" esp a phrase based one. Humans are _terrible_ sources of randomness and attackers can search at super high speeds. Using an extra hash is an obvious idea, so at best you're probably only adding a few bits of entropy that way.
 557 2013-04-10 03:46:11 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: admittedly I agree that miners wont use priority as much as we'd all like, but I still think miners will always accept *some* priority txn
 558 2013-04-10 03:46:15 <BlueMatt> atleast for a while
 559 2013-04-10 03:46:27 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Don't plan for "awhile", plan for the future.
 560 2013-04-10 03:46:29 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yes, some and for a while— I'm thinking longer term than that, sorry.
 561 2013-04-10 03:46:59 <andkore> gmaxwell: what about a passphrase that I hash hundreds of times. a number that I remember along with the phrase itself?
 562 2013-04-10 03:47:08 runeks has joined
 563 2013-04-10 03:47:08 <petertodd> BlueMatt: You know, franly I think gavinadresen's work on a payment protocol is actually harmful to Bitcoin in the long run, because it continues to encourage on-chain tx's for everything when even he admits at least some stuff isn't going to be done that way.
 564 2013-04-10 03:47:15 <gmaxwell> I agree we can and should do better things with priorty _today_. But apparently it's much harder to do that than work on long term things because there is too much opinion in the 'priority' stuff.
 565 2013-04-10 03:47:16 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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 567 2013-04-10 03:47:32 <andkore> I don't like the idea of having a wallet seed that I can't remember and I have to have written down / stored in a file to access
 568 2013-04-10 03:47:41 <gmaxwell> petertodd: no reason that PP couldn't eventually be extended with "address types" that tell you to make an offchain txn, or even offer you several choices.
 569 2013-04-10 03:48:03 AtashiCon has joined
 570 2013-04-10 03:48:04 <gmaxwell> andkore: it's still in the same general space.
 571 2013-04-10 03:48:06 <petertodd> andkore: As an evil bastard, I like the idea of you storing your Bitcoins with brainwallet passwords you can remember, because it means I can crack those passwords and steal them.
 572 2013-04-10 03:48:17 <gmaxwell> andkore: that sad, because writing it down is the safe and correct thing to do.
 573 2013-04-10 03:48:38 <saracen> andkore: People lose their memories all of the time. Write it down :)
 574 2013-04-10 03:48:48 diki has quit ()
 575 2013-04-10 03:49:15 <gmaxwell> andkore: you need to understand that the same inner structure that makes the phrase easy to remember is also what makes it guessable by attackers. And someone attacking can apply specalized hardware and they concurrently attack all brainwallet users with one unit of work.
 576 2013-04-10 03:49:30 <Belxjander> How DO the brainwallet passwords work anyway?
 577 2013-04-10 03:49:38 <petertodd> gmaxwell: My main objection is how it means we're building up a ton of expensive infrastructure, IE code, that depends yet more on on-chain. Sure it can be upgraded later, but busines types will see that huge sunk cost and push back in the way that's cheapest for them.
 578 2013-04-10 03:49:44 * Belxjander does not have any memory for "string of words" type passwords
 579 2013-04-10 03:49:47 <saracen> Belxjandr: private key = sha256(password)
 580 2013-04-10 03:50:00 <andkore> it's not a private key. it's the seed for a wallet
 581 2013-04-10 03:50:03 <gmaxwell> saracen: yep, that too.  Get a flu, run a fever, lose coins forever. ... go 9 months without typing it in.. lose forever ... type in daily so you don't forget: keyboard sniffer gets them.
 582 2013-04-10 03:50:06 <andkore> deterministic wallet
 583 2013-04-10 03:50:06 <Belxjander> ahhh
 584 2013-04-10 03:50:21 <gmaxwell> andkore: same net effect in any case.
 585 2013-04-10 03:50:45 <andkore> gmaxwell: what do you mean?
 586 2013-04-10 03:50:51 <Belxjander> petertodd: the chain itself doesn't store very much data beyond transactions between wallets for my simple understanding
 587 2013-04-10 03:51:11 <Belxjander> if anyone wants anything more then they would need to make their own branching ... isn't that right?
 588 2013-04-10 03:51:22 <petertodd> andkore: Ok, you really, really really want to do that. Generate an arbitrary password in a truly random way, like with dice or something. Work out how many bits of data it *actually* has, make sure it's at least 128bits, and memorize that. No cheating. That's exactly what I did to generate my crypto-quality passwords, and it takes some dedication.
 589 2013-04-10 03:51:37 <petertodd> andkore: You can do it. But the vast majority of people don't.
 590 2013-04-10 03:51:47 <gmaxwell> andkore: the determinstic wallet seed is a private key. It's not (directly) an ECDSA private key, but the security implications are the same because your ECDSA private keys are derrived from it with a bit of simple cryptographic math.
 591 2013-04-10 03:51:55 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: meh, by that time miners will either accept anything (blocking uneconomical txn in a only-IsStandard way wont do much...) or working with individual merchants, so in that case...meh petertodd: what? last I checked the point of a payment protocol is to discourage on-chain txn...
 592 2013-04-10 03:51:59 jaequery has joined
 593 2013-04-10 03:52:10 <andkore> gmaxwell: right. I was just explaining it to Belxjander
 594 2013-04-10 03:53:00 <saracen> petertodd: Are you not worried that one day, out of the blue, your brain will swell up and you pass out. A day later, you wake up in a pool of your own excrement, and you have forgotten your crypto-quality passwords? :(
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 597 2013-04-10 03:53:30 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: if you like you can just think of petertodd's fee rule as a proposed part of a priority algorithm. It has a number of good things going for it.
 598 2013-04-10 03:53:40 spash has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 599 2013-04-10 03:54:01 <petertodd> andkore: This BTW is what one of those passwords looks like: ts98QiTSgMujsnYYHIhTM
 600 2013-04-10 03:54:06 <gmaxwell> (it's easily understood, maps directly to the behavior we don't want— should achieve good abuse / goodness isolation— doesn't appear to have any weird non-convexity)
 601 2013-04-10 03:54:19 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
 602 2013-04-10 03:54:42 <petertodd> gmaxwell: easily understood is why I decided on c=1 btw, 'no txout > fee' is dead simple to remember
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 604 2013-04-10 03:55:04 <petertodd> saracen: of course I am, that's why I don't store the bulk of my coins in them!
 605 2013-04-10 03:55:15 <gmaxwell> petertodd: well, > fee/kb which is a little more surprising.
 606 2013-04-10 03:55:37 <gmaxwell> petertodd: if C=0.5 you can still remember "no txout > fee" and be surprised sometimes when it works anyways.
 607 2013-04-10 03:55:42 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yes, but people need to be thinking in terms of fee/kb anyway - that the clients all gloss over that is stupid.
 608 2013-04-10 03:56:01 <petertodd> gmaxwell: (leaving off the /kb was a typo on my part)
 609 2013-04-10 03:56:03 <gmaxwell> petertodd: reference client doesn't in the UI, IIRc
 610 2013-04-10 03:56:27 fishfish has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 611 2013-04-10 03:56:40 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yes, if I was the artisticly inclined type I'd do a pull-req for a better UI, but it's not like I went to art school and studied industrial design or anything...
 612 2013-04-10 03:56:41 nsillik has joined
 613 2013-04-10 03:57:12 <gmaxwell> petertodd: you used armory yet?
 614 2013-04-10 03:57:16 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: dunno, knee-jerk it sounds bad, but tbch I havent spent a ton of time reading through it, so I need to do it when Im not tired.  I dont think it makes sense given that it blocks some interesting alternate script uses...
 615 2013-04-10 03:57:40 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: it doesn't— you just have to not use tiny values in your outputs.
 616 2013-04-10 03:57:51 <gmaxwell> e.g. you can still have smartcoins or whatever but they have to be.. coins .. not dust.
 617 2013-04-10 03:57:53 <petertodd> gmaxwell: It's what I mainly use, and it sucks.
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 619 2013-04-10 03:58:39 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I like the basic ui flow a lot more than the reference— this isn't saying much.  Though the big messages box on the main view seems inexplicable.
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 622 2013-04-10 03:59:33 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Realisticly, I actually use it mainly to have a clear separation between my funds and the spare change I keep in my bitcoin-qt client for experimentation.
 623 2013-04-10 03:59:51 <andkore> ok. what if I use a brain wallet phrase and spend a full day hashing it, and I remember the phrase and the number? I could hash it long enough that nobody could ever try all 'relatively easy' passwords hashed that much
 624 2013-04-10 04:00:02 <andkore> the number of times I hashed it*
 625 2013-04-10 04:00:07 <petertodd> gmaxwell: But I have coins stored in a whole whack of different ways, even stuff like spent to nLockTime'd transactions where I've thrown away the pubkey.
 626 2013-04-10 04:00:51 Belxjander has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 627 2013-04-10 04:00:52 <petertodd> andkore: It might take you a full day, it might take a evil bastard with a bunch of custom gear for password cracking 10 seconds.
 628 2013-04-10 04:00:53 <gmaxwell> andkore: maybe, but you use a python program and the attacker has hashing asics that are 1,000,000 faster. ... plus then you forget the scheme, or the number, or you can't quite remember a letter.
 629 2013-04-10 04:01:30 <gmaxwell> andkore: so much better to just randomly generate it, write it down .. and if you're really worried about someone finding the written copy— add one extra word to it.
 630 2013-04-10 04:01:37 <gmaxwell> (thats not on your written copy)
 631 2013-04-10 04:01:40 <andkore> yeah, but what if i LOSE THE PAPER
 632 2013-04-10 04:01:48 <andkore> that's a risk that has to be considered
 633 2013-04-10 04:01:49 <petertodd> andkore: Back it up.
 634 2013-04-10 04:01:53 <andkore> that's probably more likely than it getting stolen
 635 2013-04-10 04:02:00 <andkore> ok, that's true
 636 2013-04-10 04:02:04 <gmaxwell> andkore: you make ten copies, you give one to your mother, you embed one in a wall, etc.
 637 2013-04-10 04:02:06 <petertodd> (there's gotta be a catchy 80's song out there with that title...)
 638 2013-04-10 04:02:06 <andkore> I guess my computer is pretty secure
 639 2013-04-10 04:02:13 <andkore> ok, I yield
 640 2013-04-10 04:02:51 <gmaxwell> I have my most important data backed up offline in four countries.
 641 2013-04-10 04:02:57 <andkore> are there people out there cracking wallets now?
 642 2013-04-10 04:03:00 orblivion has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 643 2013-04-10 04:03:20 <gmaxwell> andkore: yes, some — less than I would expect.. but we'll see what happens once all those mining fpgas aren't so useful for mining anymore.
 644 2013-04-10 04:03:33 <petertodd> andkore: Not as much as there would be if we didn't spend hours yelling at newbies about to lose their funds to weak passwords...
 645 2013-04-10 04:03:39 <andkore> :P
 646 2013-04-10 04:03:55 <andkore> you seem like a good person, you wouldn't do that
 647 2013-04-10 04:04:11 <petertodd> The fewer people like you out there, the more likely it is that I can get away with my actual brainwallet password: hunter2
 648 2013-04-10 04:04:21 <andkore> haha
 649 2013-04-10 04:04:23 <andkore> bash.org
 650 2013-04-10 04:04:26 <petertodd> :P
 651 2013-04-10 04:04:28 <gmaxwell> Soda bottle preforms are pretty awesome btw.
 652 2013-04-10 04:04:58 <andkore> ok, last question: how does the bitcoin client generate random wallet seeds?
 653 2013-04-10 04:05:40 <gmaxwell> The reference client doesn't have seeds, each key is standalone right now. Electrum does though—
 654 2013-04-10 04:05:44 <petertodd> gmaxwell: lol, they're cute aren't they?
 655 2013-04-10 04:06:00 iceblue has joined
 656 2013-04-10 04:06:01 <etotheipi__> ...and Armory
 657 2013-04-10 04:06:04 <gmaxwell> The randomness in the reference client comes from the OS's source of randomness. Hopefully electrum does the same thing.
 658 2013-04-10 04:06:10 <gmaxwell> and armory!
 659 2013-04-10 04:06:10 <andkore> ah
 660 2013-04-10 04:06:25 <andkore> windows has a random source? (on debian now, but curious..)
 661 2013-04-10 04:06:32 <gmaxwell> Yes.
 662 2013-04-10 04:06:53 <petertodd> ...which frankly needs to be extended by our own randomness sources, and combined in the most simple way possible that's least likely to introduce a failure on it's own
 663 2013-04-10 04:06:59 prismatictrail has joined
 664 2013-04-10 04:07:06 <gmaxwell> petertodd: well, it is in bitcoin-qt.
 665 2013-04-10 04:07:22 <petertodd> gmaxwell: what do you mean?
 666 2013-04-10 04:08:45 <gmaxwell> GetPerformanceCounter()
 667 2013-04-10 04:09:01 <gmaxwell> Hm there was also a UI source of randomness but I think we lost it.
 668 2013-04-10 04:09:17 <gmaxwell> I wonder if we still do the screenshot thing. 0_o
 669 2013-04-10 04:10:13 <gmaxwell> seems not, old versions also did a screenshot at startup and added that to the random pool.
 670 2013-04-10 04:10:46 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Ah, that's not bad, the performance counter is a reasonable source of randomness over time. Although I think we really need to add the keypool to the random pool at startup to accumulate the randomness
 671 2013-04-10 04:10:58 <petertodd> (er, really expung the predictability)
 672 2013-04-10 04:11:51 <gmaxwell> maybe add a really small havage implementation— I think it's actually somewhat more concerning for a future where we'll do a determinstic wallet.
 673 2013-04-10 04:12:12 <gmaxwell> since there will be _one_ value, generated right at startup which the security of everything depends on.
 674 2013-04-10 04:12:36 <petertodd> Very scary that. We need to at least do the "type random crap/move your mouse" thing.
 675 2013-04-10 04:12:37 moa has joined
 676 2013-04-10 04:13:04 <gmaxwell> meh, doesn't work as a daemon, and ... I'm skeptical.
 677 2013-04-10 04:13:30 <petertodd> Actually... integrate a game of whack a mole! I'll bet you every mole whacked is at least 2 or 3 bits of randomness.
 678 2013-04-10 04:13:43 <petertodd> (bitaddress.org should totally do that)
 679 2013-04-10 04:14:00 <gmaxwell> man, the source of haveged is huge!
 680 2013-04-10 04:15:00 <petertodd> you sure they don't just ship it with all the bits you'll ever need?
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 695 2013-04-10 04:25:40 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well, ok as usual I sound like a babbling idiot when Im too tired to think through things...anyway, Ill read through the code later before I keep going
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 710 2013-04-10 04:35:08 <prismatictrail> has there ever been discussion of the use of consistent hashing to shard the blockchain into channels that would be bandwidth-feasible for home users in the post-visa scalability challenge?
 711 2013-04-10 04:36:07 <petertodd> prismatictrail: Doesn't help. You can't validate effectively without having access to *all* the data involved.
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 713 2013-04-10 04:37:46 <prismatictrail> okay. will read more code.
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 716 2013-04-10 04:38:16 <petertodd> prismatictrail: Code isn't actually all that important; having a solid understanding of how the theory all fits together is.
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 718 2013-04-10 04:40:06 <prismatictrail> consistent hashing on addresses of a given transaction seems like it would give you a meaningfully validatable subset (IE: if any address involved in the transaction falls into your channel's shard you hear about it). but I haven't read the current validation code.
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 720 2013-04-10 04:40:57 <petertodd> prismatictrail: if you can't double-spend across the subsets, it means they're really different chains
 721 2013-04-10 04:41:05 <petertodd> (ie different currencies)
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 724 2013-04-10 04:47:24 <prismatictrail> A sends to B then sends to C, tx AC goes to both the A & C channels, but the A channel block does not accept AC. the next block that tries to accommodate these two parent blocks (new concept) fails to validate (somehow tbd) and backtracks. obviously the details are important, just wondering if it's ever been floated before
 725 2013-04-10 04:47:45 <petertodd> prismatictrail: many times before
 726 2013-04-10 04:48:31 <prismatictrail> details considered impossible then?
 727 2013-04-10 04:49:21 <petertodd> ⎋prismatictrail: in a secure way, yes, there are just so many ways you can attack such schemes
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 729 2013-04-10 04:51:03 <prismatictrail> yep, to be sure. thanks for the info. might be worth it some day.
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 757 2013-04-10 05:31:46 <Liquid3xB> Hello Dev people could somebody please explain how the change address works,I think I understand it so please let me know if this is correct. So you buy something for .5BTC and you have 1 BTC in your wallet, so when you send the .5 btc to buy it has to break the 1 btc to make "change" (just like if you were to use 100 dollar bill to buy soemthing for 50 dollars) and than sends change back to a different address that yo
 758 2013-04-10 05:31:46 <Liquid3xB> ur wallet has already generated in the pool of 100 it generators, is this correct?
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 762 2013-04-10 05:33:27 <weex> Liquid3xB: that's about right
 763 2013-04-10 05:33:41 <Liquid3xB> weex, Is there anything im missing?
 764 2013-04-10 05:33:48 <gmaxwell> Liquid3xB: you've got it exactly.
 765 2013-04-10 05:34:00 <Liquid3xB> How do you know what address it will send the change too?
 766 2013-04-10 05:34:36 <gmaxwell> Liquid3xB: the "1 btc in your wallet" really should be "1 BTC recieved in a single previous payment to you"  you can think of each payment as an atomic N btc coin.
 767 2013-04-10 05:35:04 <gmaxwell> Liquid3xB: it simply uses the next address in the keypool in order. You can't see them because as soon as you've seen them the system has to count that key as used.
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 769 2013-04-10 05:35:36 <Liquid3xB> So it would be like you giving me 100 dollar bill and than me giving weex the 100 dollar bill for something that is 50 dollars and him giving me back 50 "change"
 770 2013-04-10 05:36:18 <Liquid3xB> And than, this is terrible way of saying it but, putting the change in my left pocket when I took the 100 out of my right pocket
 771 2013-04-10 05:36:36 <Liquid3xB> Im sorry just trying to put this in stupid terms
 772 2013-04-10 05:36:41 <Liquid3xB> :)
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 774 2013-04-10 05:37:12 <Liquid3xB> If I can explain it to a non-computer person than I can say I really understand it lol
 775 2013-04-10 05:37:19 <etotheipi__> Liquid3xB: if I give you 23.19 BTC, yo unow have a 23.19 BTC "bill" in your wallet
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 777 2013-04-10 05:37:41 <gmaxwell> except its the network that does it and not weex.
 778 2013-04-10 05:37:57 <etotheipi__> if you want to give someone 12.1 BTC, they will get a 12.1 BTC bill, and you give yourself a 11.09 BTC bill
 779 2013-04-10 05:38:25 <gmaxwell> I like to think of it like this: someone pays you a 1 BTC coin with your name on it... you then take the coin to the foundry (the network) and have them reforge the coin into two coins a 0.5 payment with the paid parties name on it, and 0.5 change with your new address on it.
 780 2013-04-10 05:38:30 <Liquid3xB> etotheipi__, I gotcha
 781 2013-04-10 05:38:54 <Liquid3xB> gmaxwell, I like that
 782 2013-04-10 05:38:55 <Liquid3xB> Thank you
 783 2013-04-10 05:39:10 <Liquid3xB> I was reading an artical about people not getting there change and was just wondering how that works
 784 2013-04-10 05:39:19 <Liquid3xB> And I knew the perfect place to ask
 785 2013-04-10 05:39:23 <Liquid3xB> Thank you
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 787 2013-04-10 05:40:08 <etotheipi__> Liquid3xB: if you have to worry about change, you're probabl ydoing it wrong
 788 2013-04-10 05:40:32 <Liquid3xB> etotheipi__, Whys that?
 789 2013-04-10 05:40:38 <etotheipi__> or rather, you should be using tools that don't require you to have to know about it, unless you're going to do dev stuff
 790 2013-04-10 05:40:41 <etotheipi__> it's good to be educated
 791 2013-04-10 05:40:41 <Liquid3xB> etotheipi__, Doesnt everybody have to worry about change
 792 2013-04-10 05:40:51 <etotheipi__> but a lot of people have burned themselves by DIY
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 794 2013-04-10 05:41:10 <Liquid3xB> etotheipi__, DIY in what way?
 795 2013-04-10 05:41:10 <etotheipi__> it's good to know what it is, but it's all transparent to you if you're using vetted programs/tools
 796 2013-04-10 05:41:35 <gmaxwell> Liquid3xB: you shouldn't ever have to worry about the change— your wallet will handle it for you.
 797 2013-04-10 05:41:58 <gmaxwell> You only need to really understand it if you're manually constructing transactions— and in that case beware: there be dragons.
 798 2013-04-10 05:42:03 <Liquid3xB> etotheipi__, Just like to be informed, I want to make a bitcoin based site soon and my bro has been in here and doing some research (good PHP programmer) so hopefully that will work out but as of right now just reading and wondering
 799 2013-04-10 05:42:52 <Liquid3xB> gmaxwell, There will be manual transactions on this site so I will watch out for the "dragons" and thank you
 800 2013-04-10 05:42:52 <etotheipi__> a lot of people like making transactions manually, or tweaking programs because they think they know how to do it better than the program devs... people are worried about hackers, but I've *only* seen people lose coins doing that
 801 2013-04-10 05:43:06 <etotheipi__> or they forget their passphrase
 802 2013-04-10 05:43:38 <Liquid3xB> etotheipi__, Oh I have no intention of messing with the program, I was using blockchain wallet, but than was reading about all these places getting hacked and decided to use the wallet from bitcoin.org
 803 2013-04-10 05:43:45 <Liquid3xB> And have it local
 804 2013-04-10 05:44:05 <Liquid3xB> So I use it in a truecrypt folder
 805 2013-04-10 05:44:20 <etotheipi__> yeah, I'm just saying a lot of people are concerned about security, but you're more of a risk to yourself when you start digging in
 806 2013-04-10 05:44:22 <Liquid3xB> And than save backups on dropbox but also in a truecrypt folder
 807 2013-04-10 05:45:02 <Liquid3xB> etotheipi__, I can understand that and from what I understand, the programs (local) are pretty good if you have good security on your computer and dont draw atterntion to yourself
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 809 2013-04-10 05:46:16 <Liquid3xB> etotheipi__, And they send and recieve btc just fine I have no intentions of messing with it, but when this site is going up thats another story
 810 2013-04-10 05:46:46 <etotheipi__> Liquid3xB: even then, you can use an RPC interface and let the app handle the details for you
 811 2013-04-10 05:47:03 <Liquid3xB> Ahhh Ive read about this RPC can you please explain t hat
 812 2013-04-10 05:47:17 <etotheipi__> hell, even experts aren't immune... I remember seeing a transaction hit the blockchain from the owner of Mt.Gox
 813 2013-04-10 05:47:32 <etotheipi__> it turns out the guy messed up a transaction he was making manually
 814 2013-04-10 05:47:43 <etotheipi__> and sent .... 2600 BTC? ... to a black hole
 815 2013-04-10 05:47:50 <Liquid3xB> OH NO
 816 2013-04-10 05:47:51 <Liquid3xB> Gone?
 817 2013-04-10 05:48:06 <etotheipi__> essentially, he sent it to address 0
 818 2013-04-10 05:48:07 <Liquid3xB> 650K BYE BYE
 819 2013-04-10 05:48:14 <Liquid3xB> USD
 820 2013-04-10 05:48:16 <etotheipi__> well, it's wasn't worth as much back then
 821 2013-04-10 05:48:23 <ThomasV> yeah that was epic
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 823 2013-04-10 05:48:40 <Liquid3xB> So how does BTC deal with lost coins
 824 2013-04-10 05:48:46 <etotheipi__> it doesn't
 825 2013-04-10 05:48:54 <etotheipi__> maybe one day someone with address 0 will show up and claim them
 826 2013-04-10 05:49:18 <etotheipi__> it's not our concern whether someone never claims their coins
 827 2013-04-10 05:49:53 <etotheipi__> it's like gold... if you drop a gold coin in the ocean and it sinks, it's gone
 828 2013-04-10 05:50:01 <etotheipi__> oh well
 829 2013-04-10 05:50:06 <Liquid3xB> etotheipi__, But somebody can get it later
 830 2013-04-10 05:50:17 <Liquid3xB> The ocean moves it moves it shows up somewhere
 831 2013-04-10 05:50:19 <etotheipi__> address 0 will never be claimed
 832 2013-04-10 05:50:24 <etotheipi__> but if coins sit for 20 years
 833 2013-04-10 05:50:29 <etotheipi__> maybe someone is just saving them
 834 2013-04-10 05:50:30 <etotheipi__> no way to tell
 835 2013-04-10 05:50:32 <Liquid3xB> Can we claim it somehow
 836 2013-04-10 05:50:36 <etotheipi__> it would be stealing to take it though
 837 2013-04-10 05:50:38 <Liquid3xB> Thats 650K
 838 2013-04-10 05:50:48 <Liquid3xB> Why would it be stealing
 839 2013-04-10 05:50:51 <etotheipi__> well, then everyone got a little richer from the deflation
 840 2013-04-10 05:50:52 <Liquid3xB> Its nobodies
 841 2013-04-10 05:51:03 <etotheipi__> the network is a cold shoulder...
 842 2013-04-10 05:51:03 <Liquid3xB> Am I thinking wrong?
 843 2013-04-10 05:51:22 <etotheipi__> if you can produce a signature from a public key that hashes to "0", the coins are yours
 844 2013-04-10 05:51:41 <etotheipi__> otherwise, the network just "holds onto them", waiting indefinitely
 845 2013-04-10 05:51:43 <Liquid3xB> Sounds like a job for the dude from Numbers
 846 2013-04-10 05:51:56 <Liquid3xB> I think its Numb3rs
 847 2013-04-10 05:52:11 <Liquid3xB> I laughed a little I thought it was funny
 848 2013-04-10 05:52:21 <etotheipi__> I'm not familiar with it
 849 2013-04-10 05:52:28 <Liquid3xB> BAD TV show
 850 2013-04-10 05:52:42 <etotheipi__> okay, I'll skip it if my gf ever asks
 851 2013-04-10 05:52:43 <etotheipi__> :)
 852 2013-04-10 05:52:45 <Liquid3xB> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numb3rs
 853 2013-04-10 05:52:47 <Liquid3xB> ROFL
 854 2013-04-10 05:53:09 <Liquid3xB> Bad like CSI, awesome to watch just cant figure out why you are watching it
 855 2013-04-10 05:53:10 <etotheipi__> but yeah, most "lost" coins are in real addresses, but the private keys were lost long ago
 856 2013-04-10 05:53:23 <etotheipi__> forgotten passphrases, crashed harddrives
 857 2013-04-10 05:53:34 <Liquid3xB> etotheipi__, And those are toast becasue its almost impossible to break the hash
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 859 2013-04-10 05:53:46 <etotheipi__> the network has no way to determine what is "lost" and what is "being stored as savings"
 860 2013-04-10 05:53:59 <Liquid3xB> Thats a very interesting point
 861 2013-04-10 05:54:09 <etotheipi__> and the network works fine like that... even if half the coins are lost this way.... then the world will embrace the other half
 862 2013-04-10 05:54:20 <etotheipi__> and stretch them out twice as much (value) to cover the other half
 863 2013-04-10 05:54:21 <Liquid3xB> This is true
 864 2013-04-10 05:55:03 <lianj> etotheipi__: why the value, if you dont know whats lost?
 865 2013-04-10 05:55:13 <Liquid3xB> Well again thank you guys for being awesome and helping exlain the change to me in a way a dell tech would deal with somebody who was an idiot
 866 2013-04-10 05:55:17 <etotheipi__> lianj: it's an equilibrium thing
 867 2013-04-10 05:55:44 <etotheipi__> the total supply is slightly reduced, but the demand stayed constant
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 870 2013-04-10 05:56:21 <Liquid3xB> Before I get out of here I would like to ask, what are proples predictions? BTC = X amount and by when
 871 2013-04-10 05:56:33 <etotheipi__> if you have 10 million coins and $10 million worth of economic activity based on those coins... then $1/ coin... but if you lose 5million of them, but you still have $10 million in activity, those coins have to stretch to $2 each to cover it
 872 2013-04-10 05:56:55 <etotheipi__> people don't magically realize and declare, but as people get in the system and try to buy more coins, there's just less to be bought
 873 2013-04-10 05:57:33 <etotheipi__> it's a simplistic view , but not a terrible one
 874 2013-04-10 05:57:33 <lianj> yep, but it can aswell me holders and not lost coins
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 876 2013-04-10 05:57:44 <lianj> *be
 877 2013-04-10 05:58:27 <etotheipi__> well there's probably a price they will eventually cash out
 878 2013-04-10 05:58:37 <etotheipi__> where as the lost coins are INF
 879 2013-04-10 05:59:18 <etotheipi__> meh, I need to go sleep
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 881 2013-04-10 06:00:20 <lianj> etotheipi__: thanks, i agree. was just curious about holders vs lost
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 883 2013-04-10 06:00:47 <etotheipi__> at least that's how I think of it
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 885 2013-04-10 06:01:10 <etotheipi__> if people are hoarding, they're hoarding to sell at a high value eventually
 886 2013-04-10 06:01:21 <lianj> the price could get pretty trolled by close to INF holders though :D
 887 2013-04-10 06:01:23 <etotheipi__> if those coins are actually lost, that's less coins between the current price and value X
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 912 2013-04-10 06:34:24 <meefozio> what's INF?
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 925 2013-04-10 06:53:44 <topi`> I had to do a rescan, again. Going in block 220k now. Painful
 926 2013-04-10 06:54:21 <topi`> i'ts been doing that the whole night ... but only consumed 3 hrs of CPU time so I assume the bottleneck is the I/O now (i.e. HD)
 927 2013-04-10 06:54:49 <topi`> my laptop has 8 GB of ram, so theoretically the whole levelDB could fit in RAM, but it seems it does not.
 928 2013-04-10 06:55:35 <gmaxwell> topi`: please get a new hdd, I believe yours is failing.
 929 2013-04-10 06:55:54 <gmaxwell> a rebuild of the database takes my system under an hour!
 930 2013-04-10 06:56:10 <topi`> no it is not, but probably fragmented since onl 3 GB space left
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 932 2013-04-10 06:56:29 <topi`> OSX de-fragments on the fly, but I believe only when there is enough free space!
 933 2013-04-10 06:56:30 <gmaxwell> the fact that you're getting corruption and its very slow suggest something is wrong which is unique to your system.
 934 2013-04-10 06:56:57 <gmaxwell> fragmentation shouldn't matter much... it's not making (many) synchronous writes.
 935 2013-04-10 06:57:08 <topi`> the corruption was caused by the fact that the book ran out of battery && there wasn't enough HDD space for a hibernatefile
 936 2013-04-10 06:57:19 <gmaxwell> oh
 937 2013-04-10 06:57:36 <topi`> but it has to make lots of lookups to determine the end status of tx chains?
 938 2013-04-10 06:57:57 <topi`> say, a tx was spent that was declared way back in block 1000?
 939 2013-04-10 06:58:44 <topi`> I wonder if it would be feasible to spend / group tx's in such a way that it would "clean up" entire blocks? then we mark block 1001 as "totally spent"
 940 2013-04-10 06:58:56 <topi`> rebuilding the blockchain would the be faster
 941 2013-04-10 06:59:22 <gmaxwell> no, all those lookups happen in memory.
 942 2013-04-10 06:59:45 <topi`> so that's why my bitcoind's RSIZE is 304M?
 943 2013-04-10 06:59:58 <gmaxwell> it builds a database of everything that can be spent as it goes— and this is only about 200mb right now— so it fits entirely in memory.
 944 2013-04-10 07:00:07 <gmaxwell> topi`: no.
 945 2013-04-10 07:00:18 <topi`> if you fit 12 milllion tx's in there and one tx takes 1 kb, then it's 12 GB
 946 2013-04-10 07:00:20 <gmaxwell> a good chunk of the resident size is the block headers.
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 949 2013-04-10 07:00:52 <gmaxwell> topi`: that database isn't stored directly in ram, it's stored on disk— but it gets cached and currently fits in ram.
 950 2013-04-10 07:01:04 <topi`> there's only 200k blocks, so they must  eat up may KB per block?
 951 2013-04-10 07:01:11 <topi`> many
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 954 2013-04-10 07:02:44 <gmaxwell> the current git code has a bunch of memory usage improvements that reduce it somewhat.
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 958 2013-04-10 07:08:02 <topi`> RAM is not the problem for me, but the slow HDD
 959 2013-04-10 07:08:38 <topi`> I should try and profile some random access patterns
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 961 2013-04-10 07:09:40 <gmaxwell> even on a slow hdd ... it should not be slow. The validation should make no random reads currently. and almost all of the writing is async.
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 965 2013-04-10 07:10:53 <topi`> the balance of reads/writes on the system right now it at around 900k writes and 250k reads /per second)
 966 2013-04-10 07:11:31 <topi`> hmm, now it has evened out
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 969 2013-04-10 07:12:09 <topi`> is the writing appending to some file(s)?
 970 2013-04-10 07:12:18 <topi`> append writes should always be fastest
 971 2013-04-10 07:12:43 <gmaxwell> topi`: yes, pretty much.
 972 2013-04-10 07:13:00 <gmaxwell> and during a reindex the reads are all sequential (reading the blocks)
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 976 2013-04-10 07:15:08 <topi`> I noticed it started reading from blk0006.dat now
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 978 2013-04-10 07:16:02 <topi`> maybe 0003 since there is no 0006 block.dat, yet :)
 979 2013-04-10 07:16:38 <topi`> now I put the entire blk0003.dat into cache, with dd
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 981 2013-04-10 07:16:52 <topi`> let's see if it reduces the amount of disk reads
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 984 2013-04-10 07:18:31 <topi`> well, I think it is time to upgrade to a SDD :)
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 986 2013-04-10 07:21:29 <topi`> wallet.dat: Berkeley DB (Btree, version 9, native byte-order)
 987 2013-04-10 07:21:42 <topi`> can this mean that this wallet.dat is NOT encrypted?
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 991 2013-04-10 07:25:20 <gmaxwell> @#$I#@$OI@$OI@#$O@#$I@#O
 992 2013-04-10 07:25:53 <gmaxwell> e181c8df7ea36eb69dc7a1652a6c6985c0f3ef125e508382213ff7b3a5bc9b25  < mark my words!
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 998 2013-04-10 07:32:09 <feral> tx?
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1007 2013-04-10 07:40:10 <sheldor> hi guys
1008 2013-04-10 07:40:24 <sheldor> im thinking this: on the mining machine i will replace all private keys in the wallet file by 0 bits and keep the real privkeys entirely offline so they never touch the filthy internet ever
1009 2013-04-10 07:40:37 <sheldor> the miner does not need the private keys according to the protocol definition
1010 2013-04-10 07:40:48 <sheldor> im thinking solo mining ofc
1011 2013-04-10 07:40:53 <sheldor> what do u think of this?
1012 2013-04-10 07:41:19 <gmaxwell> no one solomining (that ever solves a block) has the key provided by bitcoind in any case.
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1014 2013-04-10 07:41:25 <sheldor> unless the miner for some reason verifies the wallet or does any checks on the key pairs, i should be good right?
1015 2013-04-10 07:41:34 <gmaxwell> everyone uses poolserver software (e.g. eloipool) and you can just set an address to payto to it.
1016 2013-04-10 07:41:40 <sheldor> oh
1017 2013-04-10 07:41:45 <sheldor> gmaxwell: excellent :D
1018 2013-04-10 07:42:01 <sheldor> gmaxwell: so basically you use a "pool" on localhost?
1019 2013-04-10 07:42:07 <gmaxwell> eloipool can even call a program to give it an address, so you can just have some script spooling out addresses to it.
1020 2013-04-10 07:42:09 <sheldor> gmaxwell: im thinking cgminer
1021 2013-04-10 07:42:19 <sheldor> nice gmaxwell
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1025 2013-04-10 07:43:05 <sheldor> gmaxwell: is there no way to do solo mining without faking a pool?
1026 2013-04-10 07:44:05 <gmaxwell>  'faking'?  I mean, its just running pool software.  Bitcoind itself can't issue getwork fast enough. If you use bfgminer in GBT mode that'll work but you get no longpoll (and again, there you set your address in the miner)
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1028 2013-04-10 07:44:33 <sheldor> okay
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1037 2013-04-10 07:54:09 <sheldor> gmaxwell: is eloipool suited for ltc too?
1038 2013-04-10 07:54:27 <gmaxwell> no fine idea.
1039 2013-04-10 07:54:31 <sheldor> k
1040 2013-04-10 07:55:55 <sheldor> does eloipool come with its own httpd or do i run one separately? i mean cgminer seems to connect via http
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1043 2013-04-10 07:57:05 <gmaxwell> it's not really http.
1044 2013-04-10 07:57:25 <gmaxwell> and it + bitcoind and your miner is all thats needed.
1045 2013-04-10 07:58:10 <sheldor> oh so i still need bitcoind
1046 2013-04-10 07:58:42 <sheldor> i tought only eloipool + cgminer
1047 2013-04-10 07:58:49 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-3514_7-57577639/samsung-joins-mozillas-quest-for-rust/
1048 2013-04-10 07:58:55 <sheldor> why do i need bitcoind
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1054 2013-04-10 08:02:57 <jh2o2389> does someone know how easy it is to run a bitmessage relay as an only cli process? The official client I see depend on gui libs (I dont want/cant) use.
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1083 2013-04-10 08:30:40 <sacredch1o> What's the best way to merge BTC wallet.dat files?
1084 2013-04-10 08:30:57 <sacredch1o> I'm under the impression that a wallet.dat just a Berkeley database file containing multiple private keys...
1085 2013-04-10 08:31:27 <sacredch1o> So there should be a way to merge the private keys from 2 of these DB files into a single wallet.det without having to make a transfer over the BTC network, no?
1086 2013-04-10 08:31:40 ligar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1088 2013-04-10 08:32:30 <sheldor> sacredch1o: just write a little merger
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1091 2013-04-10 08:32:50 <sheldor> probably also possible with a bash oneliner
1092 2013-04-10 08:33:24 <sheldor> you just need the set sum
1093 2013-04-10 08:33:37 <sheldor> of lines
1094 2013-04-10 08:34:56 neilk_ has joined
1095 2013-04-10 08:35:27 <neilk_> Maybe this is a stupid question, but if my wallet is encrypted, why does Bitcoin-Qt not ask for the passphrase at startup?
1096 2013-04-10 08:36:16 eklass2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1097 2013-04-10 08:36:17 <sheldor> it should
1098 2013-04-10 08:36:24 <sheldor> its not a stupid question
1099 2013-04-10 08:36:43 <neilk_> I thought it was cached in memory or something, but restarting did not cause it to ask.
1100 2013-04-10 08:36:44 <sheldor> its stupid not to ask for the passphrase at startup
1101 2013-04-10 08:36:55 <sheldor> caching it in memory or even hdd would be stupid
1102 2013-04-10 08:37:04 <sheldor> well memory is probably fine
1103 2013-04-10 08:37:34 SwedFTP has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1104 2013-04-10 08:37:48 <neilk_> Caching certain credentials with a daemon is how passwordless ssh login works
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1106 2013-04-10 08:38:02 <neilk_> But anyway
1107 2013-04-10 08:38:06 <neilk_> Hm.
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1112 2013-04-10 08:39:18 <sheldor> its stupid
1113 2013-04-10 08:39:19 <neilk_> The client says it's encrypted. Yet there are some legible things with `strings wallet.dat`
1114 2013-04-10 08:39:38 <neilk_> I'm confused.
1115 2013-04-10 08:39:50 <sheldor> might just be the header
1116 2013-04-10 08:40:04 <weex> i think it asks when you try to spend
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1119 2013-04-10 08:40:50 <neilk_> sheldor, no, I see a label for a transaction I just did, in the clear.
1120 2013-04-10 08:40:51 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (Changing host)
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1122 2013-04-10 08:41:03 <neilk_> it's possible that it only encrypts very sensitive info.
1123 2013-04-10 08:41:05 <sheldor> neilk_: then your bitcoin-qt is fucked up
1124 2013-04-10 08:41:13 <sheldor> hopefully only yours and not the codebase
1125 2013-04-10 08:41:16 <neilk_> hrmmm
1126 2013-04-10 08:41:23 <neilk_> well anyone else running bitcoin-qt?
1127 2013-04-10 08:41:27 <neilk_> try strings
1128 2013-04-10 08:41:35 <sheldor> no im a cli miner
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1132 2013-04-10 08:42:33 <alaricsp> Morning all
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1137 2013-04-10 08:43:11 <n1c> Hey
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1145 2013-04-10 08:47:18 <neilk_> this is fucked up. Changed the passphrase, and the files are still nearly identical.
1146 2013-04-10 08:48:04 <petertodd> neilk_: your passphrase is actually used to decrypt a second key which in turn encrypts the rest of the file
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1151 2013-04-10 08:49:12 <neilk_> petertodd: Ok, but why is wallet.dat then the same? is the important info elsewhere?
1152 2013-04-10 08:49:36 <petertodd> neilk_: that's exactly why, changing your passphrase only changes a tiny part of the file
1153 2013-04-10 08:50:13 <sheldor> petertodd: irrelevant, the second key should significantly change for the smallest change in the passphrase, thats the point of it
1154 2013-04-10 08:50:27 <sheldor> neilk_: something is really fucked up
1155 2013-04-10 08:50:37 <petertodd> No, the second key is created at random when the wallet is created. It never changes
1156 2013-04-10 08:50:52 <petertodd> The first key encrypts the second
1157 2013-04-10 08:51:01 <sheldor> petertodd: oh sorry, i read "the passphrase is used to *derive* a second key"
1158 2013-04-10 08:51:08 <neilk_> petertodd: okay, so the private key is always encrypted, and my passphrase is a kind of extra wrapper.
1159 2013-04-10 08:51:14 <petertodd> exactly
1160 2013-04-10 08:51:21 <petertodd> same way full-disk encryption works
1161 2013-04-10 08:51:25 <neilk_> petertodd: but all the other info, for instance, labels for my transactions, are always in the clear.
1162 2013-04-10 08:51:30 <sheldor> makes sense petertodd
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1164 2013-04-10 08:51:40 <petertodd> neilk_: yup, only private keys are encrypted
1165 2013-04-10 08:52:06 <neilk_> petertodd: okay. That's a little bit unexpected. I assume 'encrypted wallet' means 'other people can't read the wallet'
1166 2013-04-10 08:52:44 <neilk_> petertodd: but thanks. That explains it.
1167 2013-04-10 08:52:46 <petertodd> yeah, just the private keys, that way you don't need to enter your password to see if someone has paid you
1168 2013-04-10 08:54:22 <neilk_> ok, well, I win the "actually check if the software does what it says" beanie for today.
1169 2013-04-10 08:54:29 <petertodd> lol
1170 2013-04-10 08:54:51 <neilk_> don't laugh man, more people should
1171 2013-04-10 08:55:12 <petertodd> absolutely, heck, read the source code, even if you aren't a c++ programmer you can follow a lot of it
1172 2013-04-10 08:55:28 <petertodd> (I hadn't touched c++ for ten years before I got into bitcoin)
1173 2013-04-10 08:56:00 <kinlo> eh, still, the bitcoin source code isn't that readable, took me some time before I figured some stuff out
1174 2013-04-10 08:56:06 eklass has joined
1175 2013-04-10 08:56:47 <petertodd> it's not perfect, but the important stuff, IE scripting and other core functionality, isn't bad
1176 2013-04-10 08:57:29 <petertodd> it helps that most of bitcoin is relatively simple, what's hard is it must be absolutely perfect
1177 2013-04-10 08:57:43 <sheldor> petertodd: to merge unencrypted wallets is it okay to just take the set sum of lines?
1178 2013-04-10 08:58:00 <petertodd> sheldor: beats me, I've never read the wallet source code :P
1179 2013-04-10 08:58:06 <sheldor> kk
1180 2013-04-10 08:58:20 <petertodd> sheldor: I'm not interested in UI stuff personally
1181 2013-04-10 08:58:36 <sheldor> petertodd: its not ui imo
1182 2013-04-10 08:59:00 <sheldor> there is no way to merge wallets in the client
1183 2013-04-10 08:59:06 <Wayward-> bitcoin-qt is always going to suffer problems of lost wallets until the client gets a "File" > Open | Save | Save As... | Close  set of menu options.
1184 2013-04-10 08:59:07 <petertodd> sheldor: it's a lot closer to ui than scripting :) I mean, it should have never been in the bitcoin core anyway
1185 2013-04-10 08:59:16 <sheldor> so we have to write our own mergers (possibly bash oneliners if its just merging lines)
1186 2013-04-10 08:59:28 <neilk_> Wayward-: it has "Backup Wallet…" which does that
1187 2013-04-10 08:59:29 <sheldor>  petertodd
1188 2013-04-10 08:59:32 <sheldor> k petertodd
1189 2013-04-10 08:59:33 <Wayward-> People expect their wallets to be modular, tangible things they can hug and hold
1190 2013-04-10 08:59:35 <petertodd> sheldor: wallets are bdb databases, so it's not as simple as merging lines
1191 2013-04-10 08:59:47 <sheldor> i see petertodd
1192 2013-04-10 08:59:51 <Wayward-> neilk_:  great.  lets back up wallets with no means of restoring backups.
1193 2013-04-10 09:00:16 <sheldor> fair point Wayward-
1194 2013-04-10 09:00:24 <sheldor> very good point
1195 2013-04-10 09:00:40 <sheldor> wallets must become more separated from the client, objects to move around
1196 2013-04-10 09:00:41 <Wayward-> File > Open, Save, Save As..., Close.
1197 2013-04-10 09:00:49 <neilk_> Wayward-: hardly any end user software meets your test, except for the ones which abolish the notion of "File > Save" entirely for continuous journaling.
1198 2013-04-10 09:00:49 <Wayward-> For 25 years Windows has operated like that
1199 2013-04-10 09:01:08 <petertodd> the devs want to split bitcoin-qt into core network services and a wallet app eventually FWIW
1200 2013-04-10 09:01:09 Guest3375 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1201 2013-04-10 09:01:12 <sheldor> i agree wallets must be separated from clients
1202 2013-04-10 09:01:51 <Wayward-> neilk_: journaling is an underlying function of the file system, and not how a user manages and transports their data.
1203 2013-04-10 09:01:52 <neilk_> Wayward-: I think you are overestimating how users think. 99% of them don't even know where their files are. If they do know, they put it on the desktop.
1204 2013-04-10 09:02:09 <Wayward-> neilk_: they don't know because there is no Save As
1205 2013-04-10 09:02:11 <Wayward-> derp
1206 2013-04-10 09:02:21 <neilk_> no I mean, in general.
1207 2013-04-10 09:02:25 rcknight has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1208 2013-04-10 09:02:32 <neilk_> filesystem hierarchy is like a radical concept to most users.
1209 2013-04-10 09:02:42 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1210 2013-04-10 09:03:16 <Wayward-> neilk_: so lets make it even more complicated by squirreling the wallet.dat file in a place the user rarely makes backups
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1212 2013-04-10 09:03:44 <Wayward-> lets store the wallet.dat under RECYCLED
1213 2013-04-10 09:03:52 <Wayward-> that way it will be safe
1214 2013-04-10 09:04:06 <sheldor> lol
1215 2013-04-10 09:04:27 <Wayward-> just definitely not under user documents
1216 2013-04-10 09:04:38 <Wayward-> wouldn't want them making usb copies
1217 2013-04-10 09:04:42 <willbradley> i'm an IT guy and programmer and it took me some serious googling to figure out how to find and manage my wallet.dat
1218 2013-04-10 09:04:44 <Wayward-> hackers might find it
1219 2013-04-10 09:04:54 <Wayward-> willbradley++
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1222 2013-04-10 09:05:23 <willbradley> if i didn't know what %appdata% was I'd be screwed ;)
1223 2013-04-10 09:05:26 <lupine> *shrug* it belongs in %APPDATA* for windows
1224 2013-04-10 09:05:31 <Wayward-> and definitely, definitely, do not show the table contents of a wallet.dat
1225 2013-04-10 09:05:45 <sheldor> willbradley: if buy manage you also mean merging i fully agree
1226 2013-04-10 09:05:48 <Wayward-> we wouldn't want a user to see all the addresses individual balance counts
1227 2013-04-10 09:05:55 <sheldor> wallet management is entirely rudimentary
1228 2013-04-10 09:05:59 <Wayward-> or delete empty ones
1229 2013-04-10 09:06:00 <sheldor> if by*
1230 2013-04-10 09:06:17 <willbradley> in my case i had to export and import the private key, but i had an old version of the client
1231 2013-04-10 09:06:42 <neilk_> I dunno Wayward-, the whole impetus of how software is done is moving to files managed more automatically, without user-managed filesystem hierarchies. The audience of people who know where "My Documents" is and who find "Application Data" counterintuitive, is a tiny, tiny sliver of users. You may happen to be in that segment, though.
1232 2013-04-10 09:06:49 debiantoruser has joined
1233 2013-04-10 09:06:58 <willbradley> just sayin, this isn't exactly easier than paypal, and paypal sucks
1234 2013-04-10 09:07:01 <Wayward-> neilk_: cloud my arse.
1235 2013-04-10 09:07:13 <sheldor> neilk_: but isnt a fair point that you can make backups but cant restore backups?
1236 2013-04-10 09:07:18 <sheldor> isnt it*
1237 2013-04-10 09:07:29 <neilk_> yeah, we're just arguing in a narrower and narrower circle :)
1238 2013-04-10 09:07:32 <Wayward-> neilk_:  you're saying most people know where Application Data is located?
1239 2013-04-10 09:07:38 <neilk_> no, look
1240 2013-04-10 09:07:58 <petertodd> like it or not, coinbase has done a great job at making it as easy as paypal, and as centralized
1241 2013-04-10 09:07:58 <neilk_> Apple has now sold more iOS devices than all Macintoshes ever sold since 1984, by a huge margin
1242 2013-04-10 09:08:12 <Wayward-> and...
1243 2013-04-10 09:08:27 hnz has joined
1244 2013-04-10 09:08:30 <neilk_> There are more users who have never seen a filesystem, and who will never use one, than people who are comforted by File > Save As.
1245 2013-04-10 09:08:54 <Wayward-> neilk_:  you probably are using an old version of windows or something.
1246 2013-04-10 09:08:54 <neilk_> So catering to the File > Save As people is a losing battle
1247 2013-04-10 09:09:00 <sheldor> hm neilk_ does have a point with file system abstraction
1248 2013-04-10 09:09:09 <Wayward-> File > Save As is completely intuitive and looks like iTunes in Windows Vista, 7 and 8
1249 2013-04-10 09:09:15 moa has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1250 2013-04-10 09:09:25 <Wayward-> It takes the user to her Documents folder, where "ALL HER FILES ARE STORED"
1251 2013-04-10 09:09:31 <Wayward-> That is the paradigm
1252 2013-04-10 09:09:41 <sheldor> neilk_: but you say we are arguing narrower, doesnt 'backup' and 'restore backup' semantically equal 'save' and 'load' just like Wayward- was suggesting?
1253 2013-04-10 09:10:19 <neilk_> sheldor: I don't understand your point
1254 2013-04-10 09:10:33 <Wayward-> sheldor: he doesn't want to understand.  nvm
1255 2013-04-10 09:10:44 <halfie> is "db['mkey']['encrypted_key']" guaranteed to be of 48 bytes?
1256 2013-04-10 09:10:54 <sheldor> neilk_: when you do "file >> backup" you get a file system dialog and it asks you where to store your backup
1257 2013-04-10 09:10:54 <willbradley> as someone who just dealt with this, a open/save/save-as/merge/split dialogue for wallet.dat would be appreciated. i ended up going to the dev console which apparently is recommended practice and unacceptable
1258 2013-04-10 09:10:55 <Wayward-> lets continue storing user data in with application data.  that's coo
1259 2013-04-10 09:10:59 <sheldor> its like 'save'
1260 2013-04-10 09:11:06 <Wayward-> that's exactly where user data belongs.
1261 2013-04-10 09:11:20 <sheldor> agreed willbradley
1262 2013-04-10 09:11:23 <neilk_> Wayward-: that's a fair point.
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1264 2013-04-10 09:12:00 <Wayward-> ty
1265 2013-04-10 09:12:03 <willbradley> if you have a PC, chances are you know how to manage an itunes library, and that means wrangling MP3 files. sometimes it gets messy but at least "mp3 file" is a concept most computer users understand
1266 2013-04-10 09:12:10 <sheldor> neilk_: so there is a contradiction there in you supporting backup/restore backup yet rejecting save/load
1267 2013-04-10 09:12:18 <halfie> is "db['mkey']['encrypted_key']" guaranteed to be of 48 bytes? and out of which the last 16 bytes with be the padding (essentially each of those 16 bytes with be 16 in value)? Trying to understand the crypto behind wallet feature
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1269 2013-04-10 09:12:48 <neilk_> sheldor: I think I have been unclear. I'm certainly not arguing Bitcoin-Qt is the epitome of usability.
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1271 2013-04-10 09:14:11 <neilk_> sheldor: I'm suggesting that the way forward, for usability, may not be to comfort people with File > Save As, but a different paradigm where users don't have to browse a hierarchical system. Maybe Wayward-'s point about just dumping it in "My Documents" isn't bad.
1272 2013-04-10 09:14:37 <neilk_> FWIW I use a Mac and Linux, hardly ever touch Windows, don't know much about Metro.
1273 2013-04-10 09:14:58 <Wayward-> neilk_: the thing is people WANT to use multiple wallets, on multiple removable devices.
1274 2013-04-10 09:15:00 <willbradley> we shall not speak of metro. ;)
1275 2013-04-10 09:15:05 <Wayward-> neilk_: Why re-invent the filesystem
1276 2013-04-10 09:15:31 <neilk_> Wayward-: have you ever done a usability study for software?
1277 2013-04-10 09:15:46 <Wayward-> neilk_:  No.  I just make software usable.
1278 2013-04-10 09:15:52 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1279 2013-04-10 09:15:56 <Wayward-> People post bugs and feedback, and they get a result
1280 2013-04-10 09:15:57 <neilk_> Wayward-: please clarify
1281 2013-04-10 09:16:11 <neilk_> Wayward-: and the users who don't understand the concept of "bugs" and "feedback"?
1282 2013-04-10 09:16:13 <sheldor> neilk_: but you do support an option to make and restore backups right? where would it store it? the point of a backup is that you choose the location
1283 2013-04-10 09:16:46 <Wayward-> I want to File > Open a wallet from my truecrypt container
1284 2013-04-10 09:16:52 <neilk_> Really, you all should try sitting in on a real software usability study some day. Users struggle with tiny, tiny problems, fundamental concepts like "browse to this folder"
1285 2013-04-10 09:17:14 <neilk_> It's basically a huge trainwreck
1286 2013-04-10 09:17:24 <Wayward-> neilk_:  bitcoin is already a huge trainwreck.
1287 2013-04-10 09:17:27 * willbradley feature request: an "email wallet to my phone" button ;)
1288 2013-04-10 09:17:27 debiantoruser has joined
1289 2013-04-10 09:17:32 <sheldor> Wayward-: how so?
1290 2013-04-10 09:17:41 <Wayward-> bitcoin-qt is NOT your grandmother's check register.
1291 2013-04-10 09:17:50 <sheldor> yes it is
1292 2013-04-10 09:18:09 <Wayward-> set grandma down with bitcoin-qt and she will go on hunger strike
1293 2013-04-10 09:18:41 drizztbsd has joined
1294 2013-04-10 09:19:08 <neilk_> I'm not sure that bitcoin-qt is appropriate technology for most end users. Decisions are irrevocable.
1295 2013-04-10 09:19:09 <Wayward-> at least she's been using file>save for the past 30 years since Windows 3.1 when she was a secretary
1296 2013-04-10 09:19:13 <neilk_> or rather, bitcoin, generally.
1297 2013-04-10 09:19:28 <neilk_> it's not wrong to do things through intermediaries.
1298 2013-04-10 09:19:35 * lupine notes that he has taken UI studies ^^ not that it matters that much
1299 2013-04-10 09:19:41 <gmaxwell> I see five pages here of people who are not at all involved with development, blathering on about things that are only weakly related to development.
1300 2013-04-10 09:19:53 <lupine> personally, i'd look at exposing keys to the user, rather than a wallet
1301 2013-04-10 09:19:54 <gmaxwell> This is not likely to be productive, ... just saying.
1302 2013-04-10 09:19:59 <neilk_> ok sorry for the offtopicness.
1303 2013-04-10 09:20:05 <neilk_> Thanks for the help.
1304 2013-04-10 09:20:20 <lupine> but then you'd have to s/wallet/keychain/
1305 2013-04-10 09:20:22 <Wayward-> gmaxwell:  that's half the problem.  you opinionate yourself with the idea that "user interface is anti-development"
1306 2013-04-10 09:20:22 neilk_ has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1307 2013-04-10 09:20:33 <gmaxwell> Wayward-: wtf.
1308 2013-04-10 09:20:36 <Wayward-> gmaxwell:  add a fricking file > save and file > open
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1310 2013-04-10 09:20:50 keystroke has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1311 2013-04-10 09:20:53 <gmaxwell> Wayward-: Where's your pull request hotshot?
1312 2013-04-10 09:21:02 <Wayward-> I use IRC, tyvm
1313 2013-04-10 09:21:09 * willbradley chuckles
1314 2013-04-10 09:22:02 <gmaxwell> There will be multiwallet support in 0.9— but this was _not_ a trivial feature.  When running the wallet isn't just a file— it's a whole database, and needs a bunch of files. These files used to be shared with the database that stored the blockchain.
1315 2013-04-10 09:22:10 <gmaxwell> So that had to all be seperated first.
1316 2013-04-10 09:22:13 <Wayward-> users need not write code.  they simply write the demands and gmaxwell impliments them.
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1318 2013-04-10 09:22:38 <gmaxwell> hm.
1319 2013-04-10 09:22:41 <Wayward-> a bunch of files?
1320 2013-04-10 09:22:44 <petertodd> Wayward-: no, gmaxwell comes up with clever ideas and other people implement them
1321 2013-04-10 09:22:48 <gmaxwell> I'm checking here.
1322 2013-04-10 09:22:54 <gmaxwell> ... and I'm missing something.
1323 2013-04-10 09:22:57 <Wayward-> I thought wallet.dat was self contained
1324 2013-04-10 09:23:00 <Wayward-> modular
1325 2013-04-10 09:23:18 <gmaxwell> Wayward-: It seems that your payments for development work the last two years haven't arrived!
1326 2013-04-10 09:23:23 <gmaxwell> Wayward-: you're seriously past due!
1327 2013-04-10 09:23:34 Casimir1904 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1328 2013-04-10 09:23:42 <gmaxwell> Wayward-: It's self contained when it's closed.
1329 2013-04-10 09:23:45 <Wayward-> gmaxwell, indeed.  my ideas aren't free; pony up!
1330 2013-04-10 09:23:50 <Wayward-> you owe me 2 years
1331 2013-04-10 09:24:10 <Wayward-> gmaxwell: so open/close on demand
1332 2013-04-10 09:24:12 <willbradley> uh oh, an "idea person" in #bitcoin-dev
1333 2013-04-10 09:24:20 <gmaxwell> When it's opened it needs the whole database/ directory. And if you tear the two while running it will corrupt the database. (Thanks oracle!)
1334 2013-04-10 09:24:22 fishfish has joined
1335 2013-04-10 09:24:27 <Wayward-> willbradley: someone has to manage these lot
1336 2013-04-10 09:24:41 <lupine> lulz
1337 2013-04-10 09:24:43 <gmaxwell> Seemes pretty managed to me.
1338 2013-04-10 09:24:49 <willbradley> ouch
1339 2013-04-10 09:25:40 Peacemaker420 has joined
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1341 2013-04-10 09:26:05 debiantoruser has joined
1342 2013-04-10 09:26:21 <n1c> Heh, idea people...
1343 2013-04-10 09:26:26 <gmaxwell> oh thatss fucking Raccoon.@#$@#
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1346 2013-04-10 09:26:51 <gmaxwell> I hate these trolls that change names. Of course, I never remember them when they keep the same one— but they're easier to search my logs for.
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1353 2013-04-10 09:33:01 <muhoo> you may know them by their works
1354 2013-04-10 09:33:55 <topi`> gmaxwell: I noticed that now the CPU gets really pegged as I am nearing 227k blocks ... at 180k it was mostly the HDD that was bottleneck, cpu at 20%
1355 2013-04-10 09:34:22 moa has joined
1356 2013-04-10 09:34:36 <topi`> Bitcoin-Qt 129% cpu, what other threads are there than the block re-indexing thread?
1357 2013-04-10 09:35:21 <gmaxwell> topi`: they're doing the ECDSA validations.
1358 2013-04-10 09:35:23 taha has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1359 2013-04-10 09:35:44 <gmaxwell> topi`: you can make it use fewer threads if you want to leave a core free.
1360 2013-04-10 09:37:10 fanquake has joined
1361 2013-04-10 09:37:14 <topi`> so ECDSA validation can be running in parallel with the process of rebuilding the index?
1362 2013-04-10 09:37:42 <topi`> but isn't the same ECDSA validation at work in blocks <200k as well?
1363 2013-04-10 09:37:52 <topi`> at that point, I saw very little CPU usage
1364 2013-04-10 09:38:14 <gmaxwell> topi`: no, it gets skipped for the deeply historical chain (unless you tell it not to skip it with the checkpoint=0 option)
1365 2013-04-10 09:39:06 <topi`> ah, that explains things... which checkpoint does 0.8.1 have?
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1370 2013-04-10 09:40:57 <gmaxwell> 225430
1371 2013-04-10 09:41:47 <topi`> that seems to fit with the dramatic rise of CPU consumption
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1373 2013-04-10 09:42:16 <topi`> do you intend to provide a new, higher checkpoint with every release of the client?
1374 2013-04-10 09:43:20 <moa> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=157141.msg1791022#msg1791022 <---- gmaxwell: interested in your thoughts on this ?
1375 2013-04-10 09:43:57 <gmaxwell> Thats our current practice, they're set at lest 2016 blocks back normally.  Future versions of bitcoin may not have any use for them.
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1378 2013-04-10 09:46:12 <gmaxwell> moa: I think thats a bad idea. A yearly doubling doesn't obviously fit any reasonable model of technological capability— if capability grows even slightly slower (e.g. moore's law) it will rapidly diverge.  That also does nothing to address the risk that blocks get too big and without space pressure fees drop to ~0 and then difficulty drops to 1.
1379 2013-04-10 09:46:45 <gmaxwell> (and with difficulty low bitcoin is trivally exploited)
1380 2013-04-10 09:46:59 <JWU42> morning all
1381 2013-04-10 09:47:10 <JWU42> seeing a new error when trying to run RPC commands
1382 2013-04-10 09:47:19 <JWU42> getinfo getpeerinfo etc.
1383 2013-04-10 09:47:34 <JWU42> pastebin coming...
1384 2013-04-10 09:48:02 <gmaxwell> moa: As Dan Kaminsky pointed out, if running a full node because accutly expensive, no one will run them— they'll all run SPV nodes except for some big bank like things, and the system will no longer be decenteralized. I don't see that rule as preventing that.
1385 2013-04-10 09:48:26 tmsk has joined
1386 2013-04-10 09:48:36 <JWU42> https://www.refheap.com/paste/da2ca0d903dad931249aa0a8c
1387 2013-04-10 09:48:36 <moa> I agree we want to prevent that
1388 2013-04-10 09:49:24 <moa> gmaxwell: what about basic strategy but with different numbers ... allow some growth based on size of recent blocks but limit total rate of growth?
1389 2013-04-10 09:49:31 <JWU42> bitcoind is still running but something is amiss...
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1391 2013-04-10 09:50:04 <gmaxwell> moa: size of recent blocks is "just let miners choose" ... and unfortunately the miners incentives aren't naturally well aligned with everyone elses.
1392 2013-04-10 09:51:07 <gmaxwell> JWU42: try sticking LANG=C ./bitcoind getpeerinfo
1393 2013-04-10 09:52:52 <gmaxwell> moa: You could add an additional clamp which is "can't increase more than difficulty increases", making difficulty into a proxy both for miner profitablity and the improvement of technology, but I think that you still have the fundimental alignment problem
1394 2013-04-10 09:52:58 impulse has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1396 2013-04-10 09:53:55 <JWU42> gmaxwell: thks - one sec
1397 2013-04-10 09:54:31 <JWU42> yep - that works
1398 2013-04-10 09:54:49 <gmaxwell> moa: each miner selfishly wants an infinite block, and can affort hardware to store it. Other full nodes have no way to be compensated...  and if there is inadequate compeition for space it's not clear how mining will be funded.  Mike's "infinite size" thread didn't inspire me at all— it replaced a market (competition for space with fees) with charity basically.
1399 2013-04-10 09:55:52 <gmaxwell> moa: My perspective is simple— we as a community should manually push it every couple of years... when it's uncontroversial to do so (e.g. computers can handle it, txn pressure exists to support it) and only increase it to the maximum level thats uncontroversial.
1400 2013-04-10 09:56:37 OneFixt_ has joined
1401 2013-04-10 09:57:14 <gmaxwell> it may be bumpy during rapid growth— but you're never going to find a set of programatic rules that can actually capture the two factors of concern (preserving decentralization, and preserving a market for fees).
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1410 2013-04-10 10:11:51 <fanquake> Whats the timeline for 0.8.2, a couple weeks from now?
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1413 2013-04-10 10:12:51 <sipa> something like that, yes
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1415 2013-04-10 10:14:20 <fanquake> Do you think Qt5 support will make it in, or would that be for the 0.9 release?
1416 2013-04-10 10:14:30 <sipa> that will be for 0.9
1417 2013-04-10 10:15:21 <fanquake> alright, thanks.
1418 2013-04-10 10:16:42 fdsagewa has joined
1419 2013-04-10 10:17:16 <fdsagewa> buy 50bitcoin free2bitcoin only pay$2300 http://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinmeme/comments/1c1ya6/50_bitcoin_free_extra_2_bitcoin2300/
1420 2013-04-10 10:17:18 <fdsagewa> buy 50bitcoin free2bitcoin only pay$2300 http://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinmeme/comments/1c1ya6/50_bitcoin_free_extra_2_bitcoin2300/
1421 2013-04-10 10:17:22 <fdsagewa> buy 50bitcoin free2bitcoin only pay$2300 http://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinmeme/comments/1c1ya6/50_bitcoin_free_extra_2_bitcoin2300/
1422 2013-04-10 10:17:26 <fdsagewa> buy 50bitcoin free2bitcoin only pay$2300 http://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinmeme/comments/1c1ya6/50_bitcoin_free_extra_2_bitcoin2300/
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1464 2013-04-10 11:07:07 <MaybeJustNothing> Hello, someone please explain why this: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1c1ujq/ysk_the_linux_command_echo_passphrase_shasum/
1465 2013-04-10 11:07:14 <MaybeJustNothing> Gives a valid private key
1466 2013-04-10 11:07:27 <MaybeJustNothing> I'm really confused
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1471 2013-04-10 11:09:37 <joeykrim> MaybeJustNothing, whats confusing?
1472 2013-04-10 11:10:45 <MaybeJustNothing> Well, to be fair, I haven't really gotten into the details of generating ECDSA private keys but it fells like it shouldn't be that simple. Is it?
1473 2013-04-10 11:14:37 <joeykrim> im only familiar with the sha256sum part of the post. i havent used brainwallet
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1488 2013-04-10 11:33:40 Konnichiwa has joined
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1490 2013-04-10 11:33:52 <Konnichiwa> I have a question about the Bitcoin protocol.
1491 2013-04-10 11:34:31 <Konnichiwa> In response to a getdata packet, the client sends back a tx packet.
1492 2013-04-10 11:35:23 fishfish has quit (Quit: Bye!)
1493 2013-04-10 11:35:30 <lianj> Konnichiwa: yes, if its a getdata asking for a tx
1494 2013-04-10 11:35:32 <Konnichiwa> When a getdata packet is sent, we send the hash that was delivered in the original inv packet. How do we link the correct getdata to the sent hash? I cannot see where they would link up, apart from checking if the hash is in the Outpoint of an input transaction.
1495 2013-04-10 11:35:35 <lianj> can be a block too
1496 2013-04-10 11:36:00 <Konnichiwa> In otherwords, how can I be sure the client is sending the correct data (and deal async of course).
1497 2013-04-10 11:36:28 <sipa> Konnichiwa: the bitcoin protocol - at least originally - was intended as fully asynchronous and not request-response
1498 2013-04-10 11:36:36 <lianj> you can calc the tx hash from the tx packet ofc
1499 2013-04-10 11:36:58 <sipa> if you see something advertized you don't know, ask for it, and you assume you'll get it at some point and then process it
1500 2013-04-10 11:37:07 <sipa> no need to remember you asked for it at some point
1501 2013-04-10 11:37:15 <Konnichiwa> Do I need to calculate something or is the hash i was delivered in the inv packet embedded in the tx?
1502 2013-04-10 11:37:29 <sipa> well if you receive a transaction you can calculate its hash...
1503 2013-04-10 11:37:40 <lianj> should/must
1504 2013-04-10 11:37:44 <Konnichiwa> okay, I hash the whole tx packet?
1505 2013-04-10 11:37:49 <Konnichiwa> which gives me the inv hash?
1506 2013-04-10 11:37:52 <sipa> no, the transaction itself
1507 2013-04-10 11:37:56 <sipa> not the entire packet
1508 2013-04-10 11:37:58 <Konnichiwa> tx - message header
1509 2013-04-10 11:38:04 <sipa> yes
1510 2013-04-10 11:38:06 <Konnichiwa> (payload)
1511 2013-04-10 11:38:09 <sipa> after reserializing it
1512 2013-04-10 11:38:12 <Konnichiwa> I see, will give that a go, thanks.
1513 2013-04-10 11:38:21 <sipa> hashes are always calculated based on the canonical serialization
1514 2013-04-10 11:38:30 <sipa> but some datastructures can be serialized in multiple ways
1515 2013-04-10 11:38:56 <Konnichiwa> understood
1516 2013-04-10 11:39:10 <Konnichiwa> As usual its SHA(SHA(?))
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1518 2013-04-10 11:39:15 <lianj> yes
1519 2013-04-10 11:39:39 <Konnichiwa> Thank you both.
1520 2013-04-10 11:40:11 <sipa> MaybeJustNothing: a EC private key for secp256k1 (the EC curve bitcoin uses) is just an integer between 1 and FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFEBAAEDCE6AF48A03BBFD25E8CD0364140 (in hex)
1521 2013-04-10 11:40:12 <Wayward-> say, what's that vanity address generator soft
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1524 2013-04-10 11:40:46 <sipa> MaybeJustNothing: which is very close to 2^256-1, so pretty much every random 32-byte sequence interpreted as a number is valid
1525 2013-04-10 11:40:48 <MaybeJustNothing> sipa: I realized that after reading this http://cs.ucsb.edu/~koc/ccs130h/notes/ecdsa-cert.pdf (page 24)
1526 2013-04-10 11:41:30 <ali1234> can the standard client even import private key in hex?
1527 2013-04-10 11:42:59 <sipa> ali1234: no
1528 2013-04-10 11:43:29 <sipa> the WIF is somewhat more powerful as it also includes the compressed-or-not flag, which you need to know to construct the corresponding public key
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1532 2013-04-10 11:47:09 <Konnichiwa> Thanks lianj and @sipa hashing the tx matches the data requested from inv.
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1539 2013-04-10 11:53:24 <adm212> is the blockchain.info's api good?
1540 2013-04-10 11:53:40 <n1c> Could you be more specific on "good"?
1541 2013-04-10 11:53:46 <adm212> reliable?
1542 2013-04-10 11:53:49 <n1c> Sure
1543 2013-04-10 11:54:03 <n1c> I wouldn't use it for trading, but for the general stuff it seems pretty good.
1544 2013-04-10 11:54:20 <sipa> it's still a centralized service that can go down
1545 2013-04-10 11:54:22 <n1c> I've been hacking something together off the get address info call.
1546 2013-04-10 11:54:26 <adm212> could it support hundred of transactions at once
1547 2013-04-10 11:54:47 <adm212> like use it for a big site
1548 2013-04-10 11:54:49 stretchwarren has joined
1549 2013-04-10 11:55:01 <n1c> *shrug*
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1551 2013-04-10 11:55:41 <adm212> is there a point in having a bitcoind server?
1552 2013-04-10 11:55:50 <adm212> for websites
1553 2013-04-10 11:56:10 <adm212> for basic microtransactinos
1554 2013-04-10 11:56:20 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1559 2013-04-10 11:59:52 <sipa> adm212: the reason to run bitcoind is because it means you don't need to trust anyone else
1560 2013-04-10 12:00:08 <sipa> adm212: and bitcoin is not really for microtransactions (depending on your definition of micro)
1561 2013-04-10 12:00:45 Painke has joined
1562 2013-04-10 12:02:05 <adm212> hmm
1563 2013-04-10 12:03:01 <adm212> wouldn't most online transactions be micro transactions?
1564 2013-04-10 12:03:44 <adm212> <$100
1565 2013-04-10 12:04:19 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1566 2013-04-10 12:04:20 <sipa> if you call that a microtransaction, no problem :)
1567 2013-04-10 12:04:48 <sipa> under microtransaction i understand somethime like <$0.01 or so :)
1568 2013-04-10 12:04:51 i2pRelay has joined
1569 2013-04-10 12:05:21 <adm212> it's $12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micropayment
1570 2013-04-10 12:05:57 Namworld has joined
1571 2013-04-10 12:06:00 <sipa> i don't care about paypal's definition
1572 2013-04-10 12:06:05 <adm212> haha
1573 2013-04-10 12:06:13 <adm212> touché
1574 2013-04-10 12:06:26 orblivion has joined
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1576 2013-04-10 12:10:05 <Tritonio> on the API call peerinfo (bitcoind), what is the startingheight of every peer?
1577 2013-04-10 12:10:50 <sipa> Tritonio: the number of blocks it reported when connecting
1578 2013-04-10 12:10:58 <Tritonio> so it doesn't update often?
1579 2013-04-10 12:11:05 <sipa> it doesn't update at all
1580 2013-04-10 12:11:18 <sipa> it's also quite meaningless and it can't be verified
1581 2013-04-10 12:11:26 heeventuli has joined
1582 2013-04-10 12:11:29 <sipa> it's just used to make a guess
1583 2013-04-10 12:11:34 <Tritonio> I was comparing it with getinfo->blocks to see if I am missing blocks. But as you say, I noticed that I often end up having way more blocks.
1584 2013-04-10 12:11:54 Odyessus has joined
1585 2013-04-10 12:12:07 <heeventuli> hello everyone, i have a question: As i am not that familar with the math behind btc: is a transaction-id calculatable before it is executed? or can i think of the transaction id as a "result" of the transaction and it depends on what is going on in the whole network while it is executed? i tried to understand the section about transactions in the wiki, but i guess i'm not smart enough
1586 2013-04-10 12:12:07 <heeventuli> for that stuff :/
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1588 2013-04-10 12:12:25 <sipa> heeventuli: transactions are standalone
1589 2013-04-10 12:12:33 <sipa> heeventuli: they exist outside of the blockchain
1590 2013-04-10 12:12:44 <sipa> the blockchain just orders them in a specific way, but doesn't modify them
1591 2013-04-10 12:12:51 i2pRelay has joined
1592 2013-04-10 12:13:29 <heeventuli> ah, so i transaction-ids are not calculated by the "btc-network" but of the parameters of the transaction itself? like value, src, dst?
1593 2013-04-10 12:13:40 <sipa> indeed
1594 2013-04-10 12:13:46 <fronti> heeventuli: :)
1595 2013-04-10 12:14:03 <heeventuli> i see, thx dudes :)
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1598 2013-04-10 12:16:34 <Tritonio> How is satoshi dice provably fair then? Do they keep a secret which combined with the TX id can decide if the transaction won or lost? And then they publish and discard the secret every new block or so?
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1602 2013-04-10 12:18:07 <sipa> Tritonio: they have a daily key
1603 2013-04-10 12:18:15 <sipa> Tritonio: and the next day the key is revealed
1604 2013-04-10 12:18:20 <sipa> so they could cheat for 1 day
1605 2013-04-10 12:18:49 <sipa> of course, anyone who does have the key can always cheat (for example to inflate their win/loss numbers for shareholders)
1606 2013-04-10 12:18:59 geb has quit (Excess Flood)
1607 2013-04-10 12:19:24 <Tritonio> i see. thanks for the explanation.
1608 2013-04-10 12:19:49 <Konnichiwa> Why when I ask a node for Transaction information via getdata does it return multiple tx packets?
1609 2013-04-10 12:19:51 geb has joined
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1613 2013-04-10 12:20:47 <lianj> Konnichiwa: one getdata can ask for multiple
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1616 2013-04-10 12:22:01 <Cryo> are the .dat files supposed to be ~2G?
1617 2013-04-10 12:22:41 <sipa> more like 7G
1618 2013-04-10 12:23:21 <Cryo> oink
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1620 2013-04-10 12:23:54 <sipa> oh, do you mean the files themself, or their combined size?
1621 2013-04-10 12:25:20 <Cryo> http://pastebin.com/eqFzUwKj
1622 2013-04-10 12:25:23 pgvoorhees has joined
1623 2013-04-10 12:25:48 <Cryo> I was wondering about the block*.dat in the base dir, then also in the blocks dir
1624 2013-04-10 12:25:58 TheLordOfTime has joined
1625 2013-04-10 12:26:01 <sipa> Cryo: those in the base dir are 0.7's, you can delete them
1626 2013-04-10 12:26:06 <sipa> those in blocks/ are 0.8's
1627 2013-04-10 12:26:25 <Cryo> ok, that's better
1628 2013-04-10 12:26:38 Diablo-D3 has joined
1629 2013-04-10 12:27:00 <Cryo> should the client eventually do that?
1630 2013-04-10 12:27:39 t7 has joined
1631 2013-04-10 12:27:43 <sipa> they're hard linked, so they don't consume extra space
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1673 2013-04-10 13:03:57 <sipa> Goonie_: uninstall, installed 3.0 beta, reset chain, set trusted without, open peer monitor: see my trusted peer listed 3 times, plus two others
1674 2013-04-10 13:04:01 <topi`> what kind of algo is the ECDSA verifying using? I suppose it is SSE2 or whatever optimized already?
1675 2013-04-10 13:04:04 <bitnumus> Hi all
1676 2013-04-10 13:04:11 <sipa> topi`: whatever OpenSSL does
1677 2013-04-10 13:04:12 <bitnumus> does anyone know what would cause bitcoin-qt to boot on startup, in ubuntu ??
1678 2013-04-10 13:04:18 <bitnumus> /usr/bin/bitcoin-qt -min
1679 2013-04-10 13:04:24 <bitnumus> i never added this to my startup apps.
1680 2013-04-10 13:04:29 <topi`> sipa: probably very optimized then
1681 2013-04-10 13:05:09 <sipa> topi`: quite optimized for generic curves (it includes architecture-specific assembly)
1682 2013-04-10 13:05:17 <sipa> topi`: but very few curve-specific optimizations
1683 2013-04-10 13:05:36 <_dr> how much faster is your secp256k1 implementation as of now?
1684 2013-04-10 13:05:54 <sipa> _dr: using x86_64 assembly, on my i7 CPU, 6x
1685 2013-04-10 13:06:09 <sipa> and GMP
1686 2013-04-10 13:06:25 Guest23652 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1687 2013-04-10 13:06:44 <_dr> is 6x sufficient to make chain verification !cpu-bound?
1688 2013-04-10 13:06:46 <sipa> _dr: on 32-bit (where I don't have assembly code) it's more like 3x
1689 2013-04-10 13:06:56 <HM> kind of like optimising a linked list when you need a tree
1690 2013-04-10 13:07:20 <sipa> _dr: and the best 32-bit version is 4x slower than the best 64-bit one
1691 2013-04-10 13:07:31 <sipa> on the same CPU
1692 2013-04-10 13:07:47 <sipa> _dr: that depends on what the input it
1693 2013-04-10 13:07:54 <topi`> Doing 256 bit verify ecdsa's for 10s: 3746 256 bit ECDSA verify in 8.00s
1694 2013-04-10 13:08:06 <sipa> topi`: using what code?
1695 2013-04-10 13:08:12 <topi`> from openssl bench
1696 2013-04-10 13:08:19 <topi`> on my old core2duo
1697 2013-04-10 13:08:32 <Cryo> be nice to us old core2duo people :)
1698 2013-04-10 13:08:35 <sipa> topi`: on my CPU, OpenSSL takes around 600us for a verification
1699 2013-04-10 13:08:41 metabyte has quit ()
1700 2013-04-10 13:08:42 <sipa> topi`: my own code does it in 96us
1701 2013-04-10 13:08:56 <HM> sipa: any room for CPU specific around the hot parts of your own verifier?
1702 2013-04-10 13:09:08 <sipa> HM: ?
1703 2013-04-10 13:09:12 <topi`> this seems to be taking 2.1 ms for one verify
1704 2013-04-10 13:09:16 <HM> CPU specific optimisations
1705 2013-04-10 13:09:18 <HM> i dropped a word
1706 2013-04-10 13:09:22 <Cryo> is there a way to dump the peers.dat file?  I don't seem to get any ipv6 activity other than binding
1707 2013-04-10 13:09:42 <Cryo> s/way/easy$/
1708 2013-04-10 13:09:52 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
1709 2013-04-10 13:09:53 <sipa> HM: i don't want to go too far with that, as every new implementation means extra combinations to be tested
1710 2013-04-10 13:10:23 <HM> I'd like to see your updated code sometime, is it on github?
1711 2013-04-10 13:10:39 defunctzombie has quit (Changing host)
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1713 2013-04-10 13:11:06 <topi`> 1 month and a few days to go before may 15th!
1714 2013-04-10 13:11:26 <topi`> I wonder if there are still some 0.3.x clients around on the net ;)
1715 2013-04-10 13:11:40 <sipa> HM: yes, sipa/secp256k1
1716 2013-04-10 13:12:37 orblivion has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1717 2013-04-10 13:13:02 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1718 2013-04-10 13:13:44 <topi`> looking at my debug.log, 2 connections who are on 0.3.x, 1 on 0.5.x, 35 on 0.6.x, and 505 on 0.7.x
1719 2013-04-10 13:13:51 denisx has joined
1720 2013-04-10 13:13:55 <HM> sipa: ooo fancy, JNI binding
1721 2013-04-10 13:13:58 <sipa> HM: it's pure C now (except for __int128 and x86_64 assembly in yasm, which are optional), and has a small configure script
1722 2013-04-10 13:14:05 <sipa> the JNI binding was contributed by BlueMatt
1723 2013-04-10 13:14:30 <topi`> I could contribute a python binding ;)
1724 2013-04-10 13:14:40 Painke has joined
1725 2013-04-10 13:14:52 saracen has joined
1726 2013-04-10 13:15:11 <HM> yeah
1727 2013-04-10 13:15:21 <HM> code's a lot cleaner than when I last saw it
1728 2013-04-10 13:15:44 <sipa> i still want way more tests
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1732 2013-04-10 13:16:29 <deego> Is it normal for bitcoin to "freeze" for half an hour upon importprivkey'ing a single key?
1733 2013-04-10 13:16:38 <deego> .. with lots of NotifyTransactionChanged in debug.log
1734 2013-04-10 13:16:43 <sipa> deego: yes
1735 2013-04-10 13:16:54 <deego> sipa: ok, thanks. :)
1736 2013-04-10 13:17:20 <sipa> deego: you can put a false after the import command to make it skep rescan
1737 2013-04-10 13:17:22 <sipa> *skip
1738 2013-04-10 13:18:15 <deego> sipa: ah
1739 2013-04-10 13:19:53 <sipa> topi`: feel free
1740 2013-04-10 13:20:05 oiram has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1741 2013-04-10 13:20:17 <sipa> topi`: note that the public API is extremely limited now (just a start, stop and verify function), but there will be a few more functions soon
1742 2013-04-10 13:21:05 <HM> It's like the Holly Hop Drive
1743 2013-04-10 13:21:23 <sipa> ...?
1744 2013-04-10 13:21:24 saracen has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1745 2013-04-10 13:21:55 orblivion has joined
1746 2013-04-10 13:21:59 <topi`> once again I'm seeing that when the reindexing has progressed to the point that it needs to request new blocks from the network, I get no more ACCEPTEDs from ProcessBlock
1747 2013-04-10 13:22:00 <HM> sipa: Red Dwarf reference :P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph5EJw6jXnk
1748 2013-04-10 13:22:39 <sipa> topi`: known bug and fixed in head
1749 2013-04-10 13:22:50 <topi`> then again, there hasn't been a new block for 18 minutes now
1750 2013-04-10 13:22:53 <HM> not an actual video clip sadly
1751 2013-04-10 13:22:54 <topi`> let's keep waiting
1752 2013-04-10 13:23:03 <sipa> topi`: it'll continue when there is a new block
1753 2013-04-10 13:23:07 <_dr> any benckmarking for your secp256? or do you just verify the blockchain with it?
1754 2013-04-10 13:23:15 <sipa> _dr: there's a builtin bench tool
1755 2013-04-10 13:23:28 <topi`> sipa: let me verify that behaviour :)
1756 2013-04-10 13:23:51 <sipa> topi`: but git head should continue immediately
1757 2013-04-10 13:24:00 ThomasV has joined
1758 2013-04-10 13:24:15 <topi`> i'm not going to install all those boost dependencies and compile ;)
1759 2013-04-10 13:24:19 hyperjac1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1760 2013-04-10 13:24:42 <topi`> hm, maybe there's already a recipe in homebrew?
1761 2013-04-10 13:25:04 robbak has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1762 2013-04-10 13:26:20 <topi`> yes there is
1763 2013-04-10 13:26:25 <fanquake> topi  this sort of thing https://github.com/WyseNynja/homebrew-bitcoin ?
1764 2013-04-10 13:26:29 GlitchNZ has joined
1765 2013-04-10 13:27:01 <topi`> exactly that
1766 2013-04-10 13:27:10 graingert has joined
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1770 2013-04-10 13:29:15 <topi`> ignoring large orphan tx (size: 18437, hash: 2726befa9c)
1771 2013-04-10 13:29:16 ligar has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1772 2013-04-10 13:29:18 normanrichards has joined
1773 2013-04-10 13:29:24 <topi`> this seems to be a very large tx, how can it be that big?
1774 2013-04-10 13:29:44 ligar has joined
1775 2013-04-10 13:29:47 <robbak> topi: It probably is someone spammnig data into the chain.
1776 2013-04-10 13:29:51 <topi`> if you're combining like 100 different inputs, then maybe
1777 2013-04-10 13:30:44 <topi`> do we have any instrumentation to peek inside such txs? since every client ignores it, we can't use tools like blockchain.info
1778 2013-04-10 13:31:07 saracen has joined
1779 2013-04-10 13:31:39 <graingert> there should be an incentive to combining lots of small inputs into one output
1780 2013-04-10 13:31:44 <graingert> combine*
1781 2013-04-10 13:32:35 GlitchNZ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1782 2013-04-10 13:32:36 <topi`> there should also be an incentive to drop/ignore dust and satoshidice txs ;)
1783 2013-04-10 13:32:39 <robbak> graingert: The problem is that that becomes a perverse incentive to create lots of small inputs.
1784 2013-04-10 13:33:23 Diablo-D3 has joined
1785 2013-04-10 13:34:39 <robbak> That said, I'd like that. I've got a nuscence wallet that contains outputs from a bit of useless PTC stuff I did.
1786 2013-04-10 13:35:05 <robbak> The total is only 2.34uBTC. It costs 2uBTC to send it!
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1790 2013-04-10 13:36:05 <sipa> topi`: clients don't generally ignore them
1791 2013-04-10 13:36:13 <sipa> topi`: they just ignore them if they're orphans
1792 2013-04-10 13:36:29 <sipa> (or if they don't meet certain other anti-DDoS relay rules)
1793 2013-04-10 13:36:34 <neo2> Is it necessary for the client to download anything or be connected at all before sending coins to addresses you create?
1794 2013-04-10 13:36:39 <topi`> sipa: I guess they're orphans from my point of view, since I haven't catched up the last 300 blocks yet ?
1795 2013-04-10 13:36:44 Irencus has joined
1796 2013-04-10 13:37:16 <sipa> topi`: indeed
1797 2013-04-10 13:39:07 <Konnichiwa> The satoshi client wants to enforce a charge to send bitcoins, but when I do it through an exchange it does not. Is this just a client side enforcement?
1798 2013-04-10 13:39:16 DiabloD3 has joined
1799 2013-04-10 13:39:28 adm212 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1800 2013-04-10 13:39:46 <robbak> Konnichiwa: The exchange is wearing the transaction fee.
1801 2013-04-10 13:39:51 sipa has left ()
1802 2013-04-10 13:40:12 <Konnichiwa> I see, so the 0.0005BTC is mandatory?
1803 2013-04-10 13:40:17 <robbak> If they are not including it in a transaction fee.
1804 2013-04-10 13:40:28 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1805 2013-04-10 13:40:40 <robbak> The fee is only manditory if the transaction is large - which means it is made up of many small inputs.
1806 2013-04-10 13:40:59 <Konnichiwa> I see, okay.
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1808 2013-04-10 13:41:11 <neo2> robbak, is it a part of the protocol or miners won't process it?
1809 2013-04-10 13:41:13 <robbak> But adding a fee makes sure it is included in the next block, and is available quickly.
1810 2013-04-10 13:41:48 <robbak> neo2: Both. Correctly written clients will not accept a transaction that needs a fee but doesn't include one.
1811 2013-04-10 13:41:48 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1812 2013-04-10 13:42:12 <neo2> what if many sends include a fee?
1813 2013-04-10 13:42:42 <robbak> Miners can choose what transactions they include or reject, and would do so if a large transaction is missing a fee.
1814 2013-04-10 13:42:51 mercerist has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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1816 2013-04-10 13:43:25 <robbak> neo2: they would fill up the space with as many fee-paying transactions as they could.
1817 2013-04-10 13:43:49 <topi`> sipa: behaviour confirmed, after seeing 1 block being created, the downloading resumes
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1820 2013-04-10 13:44:07 <neo2> 0.0005 isn't negligible in today's prices
1821 2013-04-10 13:44:07 <graingert> robbak: the disensentive to create lots of smaller inputs should be relatively improved
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1827 2013-04-10 13:44:33 <graingert> robbak: this is something that is in the relaying peers own interest
1828 2013-04-10 13:44:40 <neo2> robbak, so all the poor will get pushed down?
1829 2013-04-10 13:44:47 <graingert> gavinandresen: comcast, smooth
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1832 2013-04-10 13:45:47 <robbak> neo2: Well, the fee will be pushed down as the value goes up. It was 0.1 BTC at the start, when a whole coin was a few tenths of a cent.
1833 2013-04-10 13:46:04 <topi`> robbak: we can also have a "philantrophic" miner who puts small value tx's from poor people without expensive txfees foremost ;)
1834 2013-04-10 13:46:19 Guest99331 has joined
1835 2013-04-10 13:46:29 <topi`> but, the problem is, how to differentiate between a poor person sending meager mBTC from a spammer?
1836 2013-04-10 13:47:10 <graingert> topi`: the miners are sometimes not the issue
1837 2013-04-10 13:47:10 <topi`> we need a web-of-trust for lowering tx fees for the poor!
1838 2013-04-10 13:47:14 <graingert> topi`: relaying nodes
1839 2013-04-10 13:47:32 <neo2> you don't differentiate. that's why in the future there will have to be btc banks..
1840 2013-04-10 13:47:33 <graingert> topi`: have a dissensentive to relay transactions that reduce prunability
1841 2013-04-10 13:47:40 Diablo_D3 has joined
1842 2013-04-10 13:47:41 <topi`> graingert: I thought all txs would get *relayed* even without a txfee
1843 2013-04-10 13:47:48 DJ_Sweetums has joined
1844 2013-04-10 13:47:50 <neo2> nvm
1845 2013-04-10 13:47:55 <graingert> topi`: and an insentive to relay transactions that increase prunability
1846 2013-04-10 13:48:06 <graingert> topi`: no by default nodes don't relay "spam"
1847 2013-04-10 13:48:14 lolcookie has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1848 2013-04-10 13:48:33 <topi`> but I accidentally just sent 4 btc with 0.00 txfee and it still appeared in the chain
1849 2013-04-10 13:48:41 DiabloD3 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1850 2013-04-10 13:48:58 <graingert> topi`: probably not spam then
1851 2013-04-10 13:49:14 <topi`> no spam, the coins went to intersango ;)
1852 2013-04-10 13:49:30 <graingert> ask phantomcircuit for them back?
1853 2013-04-10 13:49:40 <topi`> I wonder what has happened to the intersango guys, like phantomcircuit, they used to be regulars on irc
1854 2013-04-10 13:49:51 <graingert> topi`: phantomcircuit never left
1855 2013-04-10 13:49:58 <topi`> graingert: I mean it was an accident that there was 0 txfee
1856 2013-04-10 13:50:09 <graingert> topi`: still not spam
1857 2013-04-10 13:50:09 <topi`> I didn't check my settings
1858 2013-04-10 13:50:11 gfawkes has joined
1859 2013-04-10 13:50:20 <graingert> topi`: the client will add the fee if it's needed
1860 2013-04-10 13:50:30 <graingert> topi`: sending 4 bitcoin in one go is probably not spammy
1861 2013-04-10 13:50:32 <topi`> how does the client know that?
1862 2013-04-10 13:50:54 <graingert> topi`: the client knows what the other clients will do
1863 2013-04-10 13:51:00 DiabloD3 has joined
1864 2013-04-10 13:51:00 <DJ_Sweetums> I seem to be having trouble running 'bitcoind listaccounts' on my Ubuntu 12.10 box running on a VIA C7. It just hangs seemingly indefinitely. Anything I should be looking at? Kinda makes me a tad worried.
1865 2013-04-10 13:51:50 <n1c> Is the bitcoin synced & connected?
1866 2013-04-10 13:52:07 <n1c> and isn't there anything useful in the log?
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1869 2013-04-10 13:53:08 <DJ_Sweetums> n1c: It is, although I restarted it and now it's taking forever for me to run any command. So I think it's stil warming up. When it was up, but listaccounts was hanging, all I saw in the log was information about SetBestChain, which is what I'm seeing in the logs now.
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1876 2013-04-10 14:02:57 <neo2> Is it true you shouldn't use the client to receive coins before the entire blockchain is finished downloading?
1877 2013-04-10 14:04:57 <denisx> I'm running bitcoind HEAD from three days ago. but it uses alot more cpu power
1878 2013-04-10 14:05:02 <denisx> that looks not normal to me
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1885 2013-04-10 14:15:56 <helo> bizarre... apparently these two transactions weren't initiated by the owner of the wallet: http://blockchain.info/address/1B2wphWu9tB84Hc5VcbJ2JeHtm9CpUXEUB his client: http://i.imgur.com/Ko91v1s.png
1886 2013-04-10 14:16:37 InsuDra has joined
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1888 2013-04-10 14:17:54 <helo> and the first address shown in the screenshot hasn't ever actually received anything
1889 2013-04-10 14:18:24 talengix has joined
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1892 2013-04-10 14:20:11 <helo> and the order is wrong
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1899 2013-04-10 14:26:12 <Bitcoin_Messiah> i recovered wallet.dat, like 6 of them from my old hd
1900 2013-04-10 14:26:20 <Bitcoin_Messiah> but they are all partially recoevered apparently
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1903 2013-04-10 14:26:51 <Bitcoin_Messiah> windows 7 install did a quick format on my hd if it helps, can anyone help me wid this i doubt i got any coins but if i do i should have quiet alot
1904 2013-04-10 14:28:48 <Leviathanzz> you should have never touched the drives in the first place and given them to a professional
1905 2013-04-10 14:29:18 <Leviathanzz> and you still should do that, if you actually have a worthwhile amount of coins
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1909 2013-04-10 14:30:04 <Bitcoin_Messiah> i didn't kow there where wallets
1910 2013-04-10 14:30:08 <Bitcoin_Messiah> i just checked
1911 2013-04-10 14:30:16 <Bitcoin_Messiah> i forgot abou tthem
1912 2013-04-10 14:30:30 <Leviathanzz> well, still go to a prodessional
1913 2013-04-10 14:30:32 <Bitcoin_Messiah> not sure if the worthy coins are in this hd though,m going to google
1914 2013-04-10 14:30:41 <Leviathanzz> professional*
1915 2013-04-10 14:31:20 <lianj> "google, does my hd have worthy coins?" how does that work
1916 2013-04-10 14:32:23 <Bitcoin_Messiah> shouuld have checked this https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=25091.0
1917 2013-04-10 14:32:49 <Bitcoin_Messiah> i used recova program should have been good
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1945 2013-04-10 14:52:58 <helo> silly guy forgot he sent the coin earlier, and then tried to send it again while his client was syncing
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1966 2013-04-10 15:06:33 <n5> what is aprox size of one block right now?
1967 2013-04-10 15:07:01 meLon has joined
1968 2013-04-10 15:07:26 <gavinandresen> n5: http://blockchain.info/charts/avg-block-size
1969 2013-04-10 15:08:19 <n5> ok, thnx gavinandresen
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1971 2013-04-10 15:09:36 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
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1973 2013-04-10 15:11:48 <phantomcircuit> topi`, wat
1974 2013-04-10 15:12:48 Kiba has joined
1975 2013-04-10 15:12:50 <Kiba> hey
1976 2013-04-10 15:12:54 <Kiba> I want to join the bitcoin foundation
1977 2013-04-10 15:12:56 <gavinandresen> Hey Kiba
1978 2013-04-10 15:13:01 <Kiba> but the price exppppppppppeeeeensive!
1979 2013-04-10 15:13:06 <gavinandresen> You should join the foundation.  The prices float now.
1980 2013-04-10 15:13:17 <gavinandresen> (as of … yesterday?)
1981 2013-04-10 15:13:22 <Kiba> does your salary float too?
1982 2013-04-10 15:13:31 orblivion has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1983 2013-04-10 15:13:47 <gavinandresen> Yes, my salary is re-pegged every month
1984 2013-04-10 15:14:15 rowit has joined
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1986 2013-04-10 15:14:34 <Kiba> gavinandresen: so everytime the price goes up by 100 dollars, you get a nice bonus
1987 2013-04-10 15:15:34 * Kiba needs to sync
1988 2013-04-10 15:15:37 <phantomcircuit> Kiba, or if it goes down he gets a haircut
1989 2013-04-10 15:15:38 <gavinandresen> Kiba: if I don't spend my salary as soon as I get it
1990 2013-04-10 15:15:59 <gavinandresen> and yeah, price drops == salary cut.  Good incentive to keep things running smoothly!
1991 2013-04-10 15:16:19 <Kiba> the feeding frenzy for bitcoin is taking an awfully long time
1992 2013-04-10 15:16:29 <Kiba> where are all those people coming form?
1993 2013-04-10 15:17:01 <gavinandresen> off-topic for here….
1994 2013-04-10 15:17:23 <Belxjander> mtgox has a queue of people being "confirmed" before accepting account funding transfers of some kind
1995 2013-04-10 15:17:34 <Belxjander> and apparently it is still quite large (1000s of people?)
1996 2013-04-10 15:17:55 <Kiba> well, I just joined this channel to get any update on bitcoinfoundation
1997 2013-04-10 15:18:28 <Kiba> is there a guide for newbies who wants to contribute code to bitcoin-qt?
1998 2013-04-10 15:19:01 <helo> Kiba: github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
1999 2013-04-10 15:19:31 <gavinandresen> Also: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=41718.0
2000 2013-04-10 15:19:31 <helo> it's pretty standard github workflow stuff
2001 2013-04-10 15:20:10 <gavinandresen> And "how to submit a PULL" : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4571.0
2002 2013-04-10 15:20:51 <zeph97> gavin: why there is no makefile for visual c++ 2008/2010?
2003 2013-04-10 15:21:14 <gavinandresen> zeph97: because no vc++ programmers have stepped up to create/maintain one
2004 2013-04-10 15:21:57 <gavinandresen> first rule of open source software: if you want something done, do it yourself
2005 2013-04-10 15:21:58 <zeph97> i think i can try to create one :)
2006 2013-04-10 15:22:31 <gavinandresen> great!  we need one...
2007 2013-04-10 15:22:34 <Ry4an> gavinandresen: you sounded entirely not-a-kook on NPR yesterday.  Perfect stuff.
2008 2013-04-10 15:22:42 <gavinandresen> thanks!
2009 2013-04-10 15:22:47 mercerist has joined
2010 2013-04-10 15:23:13 <denisx> gavinandresen: you made a new thread for your cleanshutdown code, right?
2011 2013-04-10 15:23:26 cultav1x has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2012 2013-04-10 15:23:29 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
2013 2013-04-10 15:23:30 <Kiba> Ry4an: there's still journalists who write dumb things about bitcoin. I think the bitcoinfoundation should takes a more proactive approach to informing journalists and bloggers
2014 2013-04-10 15:24:19 <gavinandresen> denisx: new thread?  yes, there is a thread that does nothing but check for fRequestShutdown getting set....
2015 2013-04-10 15:24:28 <gonffen> Ry4an: do you ahve a link to a recording of that?
2016 2013-04-10 15:24:53 <denisx> gavinandresen: can you give it a name
2017 2013-04-10 15:25:32 <gavinandresen> denisx: sure, we can call it "denis"
2018 2013-04-10 15:25:58 * gavinandresen seems to recall saying something about the first rule of open source software recently
2019 2013-04-10 15:26:30 Kiba has left ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
2020 2013-04-10 15:26:44 <Ry4an> gonffen: http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/08/24/138673630/what-is-bitcoin
2021 2013-04-10 15:26:52 <Ry4an> n/m that's the old one.
2022 2013-04-10 15:26:55 <gonffen> Ry4an: much thanks
2023 2013-04-10 15:27:03 <gonffen> heh oh well
2024 2013-04-10 15:27:06 <denisx> gavinandresen: you mean I should make a patch and send you a pullrequest?
2025 2013-04-10 15:27:07 <Ry4an> http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/04/09/176688096/episode-450-bitcoin-goes-to-the-moon
2026 2013-04-10 15:27:16 <gonffen> lol nerd merit badge...
2027 2013-04-10 15:27:32 <gonffen> thank you very much sir
2028 2013-04-10 15:27:41 <DJ_Sweetums> Does bitcoind require a minimum set of requirements to function? The box I was running it on isn't a fireball and I'm wondering if that's why. I have coin generation turned off though, but I still can't even connect to the server after it's been running for well over an hour
2029 2013-04-10 15:27:52 <DJ_Sweetums> (after it's fully synced the transactions it looks like)
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2044 2013-04-10 15:32:23 <helo> my 512mb ram vps is bursting at the seams, but able to run bitcoind (with some swap abuse)
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2050 2013-04-10 15:33:57 <gavinandresen> denisx: yup
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2052 2013-04-10 15:34:09 <gavinandresen> helo: you running git HEAD?  sipa's been working on memory optimizations
2053 2013-04-10 15:34:23 <helo> gavinandresen: yeah, it would be completely impossible otherwise :)
2054 2013-04-10 15:34:37 <helo> particularly with 55 connections
2055 2013-04-10 15:34:46 <gavinandresen> it is likely to be completely impossible in a month or three, given network growth
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2057 2013-04-10 15:34:52 <helo> res is only 279mb
2058 2013-04-10 15:35:19 <helo> err 297mb
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2076 2013-04-10 15:50:34 <helo> you're drunk localhost, go home. Warning: Local node 127.0.0.1:41035 misbehaving (delta: 0)!
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2078 2013-04-10 15:51:01 <t7> :O
2079 2013-04-10 15:51:03 <Scrat> lol
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2081 2013-04-10 15:51:20 oiram has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2082 2013-04-10 15:51:32 <b4tt3r135> hahaha
2083 2013-04-10 15:51:38 <b4tt3r135> localhost -> "go home"
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2089 2013-04-10 15:54:52 <helo> several dozen "inputs already spent" over the course of a few minutes. i guess someone's trying to aggressively push out a double spend? not sure what they hope to achieve by spamming it...
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2098 2013-04-10 16:03:16 <serp> don't suppose anyone has worked out verifying signatures in php have they?  doesn't look like the openssl wrappers support ECDSA
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2100 2013-04-10 16:04:08 bigti[ has joined
2101 2013-04-10 16:04:34 <tcatm> serp: this looks promising https://github.com/mdanter/phpecc
2102 2013-04-10 16:04:45 n1c has joined
2103 2013-04-10 16:05:28 <serp> i'll check that out.. thanks
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2140 2013-04-10 16:32:53 <denisx> ok, there a six unnamed bitcoind threads
2141 2013-04-10 16:33:08 <denisx> the main thread should keep simply bitcoind, right?
2142 2013-04-10 16:33:13 <denisx> there arre
2143 2013-04-10 16:33:14 grlpx has joined
2144 2013-04-10 16:33:15 <denisx> are
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2155 2013-04-10 16:35:02  has joined
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2160 2013-04-10 16:36:10 diki has joined
2161 2013-04-10 16:36:26 JZavala has joined
2162 2013-04-10 16:36:33 <diki> Hehe
2163 2013-04-10 16:36:36 <sje> q: source code only counts an output as 'mine' in an m-of-n script if i own ALL the required keys?.would it not make sense to call it mine if either i could spend it (i own m keys) or i and another could spend it (i own m keys and m > n/2)?
2164 2013-04-10 16:36:39 <diki> found my old wallet where I found two blocks
2165 2013-04-10 16:37:02 <denisx> diki: in testnet?
2166 2013-04-10 16:37:09 <diki> main net
2167 2013-04-10 16:37:18 <denisx> lucky you
2168 2013-04-10 16:37:38 MC1984_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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2170 2013-04-10 16:38:37 HM has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2171 2013-04-10 16:39:12 <diki> is signmessage working?
2172 2013-04-10 16:39:17 Joric has joined
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2174 2013-04-10 16:39:17 Joric has joined
2175 2013-04-10 16:39:26 <diki> I do signmessage <private key as requested> <my text>
2176 2013-04-10 16:39:34 <diki> yet I keep getting the error to use the private key for the address
2177 2013-04-10 16:39:41 <diki> Private as in hex, or number?
2178 2013-04-10 16:39:44 <diki> or wif?
2179 2013-04-10 16:40:41 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2180 2013-04-10 16:41:20 <phantomcircuit> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1c2gzd/helpful_hint_dont_trade_with_500s_of_lag/
2181 2013-04-10 16:41:26 <phantomcircuit> is it just me or is that page blank
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2187 2013-04-10 16:41:53 <Luke-Jr> sje: no, because it breaks a number of assumptions in Bitcoin-Qt
2188 2013-04-10 16:41:59 <Luke-Jr> sje: someday maybe
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2198 2013-04-10 16:44:03 <sje> Luke-Jr: what kind of assumptions?
2199 2013-04-10 16:44:09 nsillik has joined
2200 2013-04-10 16:44:30 <Luke-Jr> sje: it assumes that itself and only itself can ever spent any "mine" coins
2201 2013-04-10 16:45:16 Transisto has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2202 2013-04-10 16:45:22 <sje> i don't think that assumption is violated by the logic i suggested
2203 2013-04-10 16:46:30 <sje> i'm saying call it yours if you can spend it by yourself or if you can spend it with others - either way it requires you to spend it
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2206 2013-04-10 16:47:18 <sje> the client is capable of the spend by yourself part, so i don't think anything would break
2207 2013-04-10 16:47:58 debiantoruser has joined
2208 2013-04-10 16:49:05 <Luke-Jr> sje: well, it also assumes it *can* spend anything on its own
2209 2013-04-10 16:49:29 <sje> yeah - which it could if you own m keys
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2213 2013-04-10 16:50:38 <diki> http://pastebin.com/ehXXYH7V
2214 2013-04-10 16:51:03 <sje> another way to put it: call it yours if you can spend it yourself and nobody can spend it without you
2215 2013-04-10 16:51:32 JZavala has joined
2216 2013-04-10 16:51:47 <sje> that is slightly less stringent than owning all the keys - just means owning >= m keys and >n/2 keys
2217 2013-04-10 16:52:35 <Joric> "Give me a beer, the bottle of whiskey and a room for a week, steak dinner, shave and a haircut and a bath and some new clothes and a hat and some boots, and some oats for my horse, and a woman." One heavy coin. You're fine.
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2225 2013-04-10 16:57:07 <sje> anyway, off to bed - thanks Luke-Jr
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2237 2013-04-10 17:01:44 <Diapolo> good evening
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2241 2013-04-10 17:03:46 <diki> old wallets sure take a long time to get re-indexed or whatever
2242 2013-04-10 17:03:58 <diki> Diapolo:I suppose you miss the days where speed increases could me made to the kernel :D
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2245 2013-04-10 17:04:23 <Diapolo> diki: read again ^^ there is no D3 :-P
2246 2013-04-10 17:04:42 <diki> D3?
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2248 2013-04-10 17:04:56 <Diapolo> I thought you meant Diablo-D3 :D, no?
2249 2013-04-10 17:05:00 <diki> no
2250 2013-04-10 17:05:10 <diki> I meant you and the CL kernel optimizations, you are him, right?
2251 2013-04-10 17:05:12 <Diapolo> oh :) yeah the kernel time is over for me
2252 2013-04-10 17:05:24 K1NN6 has joined
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2254 2013-04-10 17:06:33 <Diapolo> dunno if anyone is still using diakgcn in cgminer
2255 2013-04-10 17:06:46 <diki> it's bundled, so I guess whichever is faster
2256 2013-04-10 17:07:30 <drizztbsd> I'm using phatk here
2257 2013-04-10 17:07:31 <drizztbsd> (default)
2258 2013-04-10 17:07:43 DrAkaman has joined
2259 2013-04-10 17:07:45 <ali1234> terracoin "fix" took effect. it's not doing a block per second
2260 2013-04-10 17:07:51 <ali1234> *now
2261 2013-04-10 17:08:00 b4tt3r135 has joined
2262 2013-04-10 17:08:01 <diki> Meanwhile
2263 2013-04-10 17:08:10 * diki found some old coins on various pools
2264 2013-04-10 17:08:19 <diki> I had found 2.24 lost on bitparking.com
2265 2013-04-10 17:08:25 oiram has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2266 2013-04-10 17:08:26 <diki> now on mtred and btcmine
2267 2013-04-10 17:08:29 <ali1234> i did that the other day
2268 2013-04-10 17:08:46 <Diapolo> diki: nice one :D if you find mybitcointrade.com tell me :-P
2269 2013-04-10 17:09:24 <diki> Elementary Watson, just let me get my magnifying glass!
2270 2013-04-10 17:09:29 <diki> :D
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2274 2013-04-10 17:10:28 dave is now known as Guest73668
2275 2013-04-10 17:10:47 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
2276 2013-04-10 17:10:54 Grouver has joined
2277 2013-04-10 17:10:56 <diki> Meanwhile again, you can verify my message of my block http://pastebin.com/ehXXYH7V
2278 2013-04-10 17:11:13 <diki> I should also sign the second one which came a week later at diff ~800k
2279 2013-04-10 17:12:27 jtimon has joined
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2282 2013-04-10 17:12:42 <Diapolo> diki: just a sec
2283 2013-04-10 17:12:44 Belxjander has joined
2284 2013-04-10 17:12:58 bigti[ has joined
2285 2013-04-10 17:13:09 <diki> Wow, I even keep my very first wallet
2286 2013-04-10 17:13:21 zbroyar has left ()
2287 2013-04-10 17:13:24 <diki> Oh how wonderful those days were
2288 2013-04-10 17:13:26 <diki> Getting over a bitcoin per day with a single 5850
2289 2013-04-10 17:13:36 Bohren has joined
2290 2013-04-10 17:14:21 <diki> Is it possible to mash all the keys from all of my wallets into a single one?
2291 2013-04-10 17:14:40 <diki> single wallet that is
2292 2013-04-10 17:14:44 <Diapolo> diki: message verified
2293 2013-04-10 17:15:19 alphaguru has quit ()
2294 2013-04-10 17:16:15 <diki> My very first payout from a pool done on 2011-04-27 06:34:47 :D
2295 2013-04-10 17:16:35 <diki> I honestly thought I had deleted these wallets.
2296 2013-04-10 17:16:54 MobPhone has quit (Quit: -a- Android IRC 2.1.2)
2297 2013-04-10 17:17:59 <Guest73668> I have a wallet that I saved a couple of years ago, after a system crash, I found that I could restore it by replacing wallet.dat with the backed up version. I have not used Bitcoin for some time and want to restore my wallet on the latest software. Can this be done now. I did a search for wallet.dat and found nothing so I presume things have moved on. What can I do to recover my wallet now?
2298 2013-04-10 17:18:36 <diki> Guest12448: I just did the same.
2299 2013-04-10 17:18:46 <diki> I had a backed up version of a wallet from early 2011
2300 2013-04-10 17:18:56 d4de has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2301 2013-04-10 17:19:06 <diki> put in the datadir, and waited a few minutes for Bitcoin to re-index it/update it/whatever.
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2316 2013-04-10 17:25:11 <diki> I just thought of a concept of backing up a wallet, even if it's old, but still being able to rebuild the private keys for every other.
2317 2013-04-10 17:25:34 <topi`> diki: I also started mining in april 2011 :)
2318 2013-04-10 17:25:43 <topi`> good times, difficulty 100k or so
2319 2013-04-10 17:25:47 <diki> yeah
2320 2013-04-10 17:26:00 <diki> we pretty much hit the beginning of the GPU mining era
2321 2013-04-10 17:26:09 <diki> sort of, they were doing it for months
2322 2013-04-10 17:26:09 <topi`> I got around 5-10 btc a week
2323 2013-04-10 17:26:14 AngryAgain has joined
2324 2013-04-10 17:26:39 <topi`> there's some heavy dipping in mtgox now, especially pronounced in EUR
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2326 2013-04-10 17:26:56 nsillik_ is now known as nsillik
2327 2013-04-10 17:26:59 <topi`> everybody must have been searching their old wallets, and sending those coins off for sale ;)
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2332 2013-04-10 17:28:11 <Joric> oh my i still have 0.02 btc on 1JoricCBkW8C5m7QUZMwoRz9rBCM6ZSy96 im gonna be rich!
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2338 2013-04-10 17:30:07 <Joric> gotta move those, especially considering all blockchain.info/other web wallet addresses will be eventially hacked/wiped out
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2342 2013-04-10 17:31:39 <Joric> china recently attacked github pages
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2346 2013-04-10 17:34:51 <helo> Joric: did you catch any flak for the bitcointools.appspot.com "theft" mentioned on reddit?
2347 2013-04-10 17:35:03 K1NN6 is now known as niccy
2348 2013-04-10 17:35:20 <helo> your name came up as the owner
2349 2013-04-10 17:36:08 Optimus-Prime has joined
2350 2013-04-10 17:36:10 <gmaxwell> helo: no evidence that the owner did that though.
2351 2013-04-10 17:36:24 <Joric> nope, i didn't open it for ages
2352 2013-04-10 17:36:46 <helo> yeah, that's what i (she) said
2353 2013-04-10 17:36:46 Optimus-Prime has left ()
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2355 2013-04-10 17:37:19 <diki> I shall try to document my chain-wallet idea.
2356 2013-04-10 17:37:29 <diki> well, chain-address, but chain-wallet sounds better.
2357 2013-04-10 17:37:32 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: ping
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2383 2013-04-10 17:49:08 <hellohellohola> What do you guys think of Bit Moose?  Do you think it could work if done on a large scale?
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2403 2013-04-10 18:02:08 <helo> not nearly as cool as Bit Wolf, and not nearly as cute as Bit Sloth... what's the intended demographic?
2404 2013-04-10 18:02:19 oiram has joined
2405 2013-04-10 18:02:31 <helo> sorry... i'll let myself out :/
2406 2013-04-10 18:03:33 <anachron2> I've heard alternate proposals for bro-coins and ho-coins..
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2428 2013-04-10 18:09:27 <diki> Anyone know of a service besides gobbittest.appspot.com and bitcointools.appspot.com?
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2434 2013-04-10 18:10:57 <devrandom> Luke-Jr: peek
2435 2013-04-10 18:11:26 bigti[ is now known as bigtip
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2437 2013-04-10 18:11:37 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: sent you 3 pullreqs, including a bugfix for that bug I reported months ago :P
2438 2013-04-10 18:11:45 b4tt3r135 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2439 2013-04-10 18:12:10 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: gitian is much faster when I'm not nesting KVM! :P
2440 2013-04-10 18:12:10 <devrandom> great, looking now
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2445 2013-04-10 18:12:41 <devrandom> BTW, looks like the major bitcoin sites under DDOS attack?
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2449 2013-04-10 18:13:05 <TD> yeah could be
2450 2013-04-10 18:13:09 <sydna> devrandom: could also just be heavy traffic
2451 2013-04-10 18:13:12 <devrandom> hey TD
2452 2013-04-10 18:13:28 <devrandom> well, bitstamp is down
2453 2013-04-10 18:13:34 dnathe4th has joined
2454 2013-04-10 18:13:37 <devrandom> and gox has > 1/2 hour order execution lag
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2457 2013-04-10 18:13:52 <lianj> yep great stuff
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2459 2013-04-10 18:13:56 <sydna> if Mt Gox was actually being attacked, wouldn't they just be inaccessable?
2460 2013-04-10 18:14:10 <sydna> it makes no sense that a DOS attack would hit their trading engine and nothing else
2461 2013-04-10 18:14:31 <devrandom> seems like they have order execution and web service on the same machine, because whenever they are attacked they have long execution times
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2464 2013-04-10 18:15:00 <devrandom> (yes, it doesn't make much sense from an architecture point of view)
2465 2013-04-10 18:15:07 <sydna> that's an uncomfortable prospect really
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2468 2013-04-10 18:15:59 <topi`> hmm, coinabul seems to be broken somehow, "unable to set payment method" ... anyone done business with them?
2469 2013-04-10 18:16:00 <warren> There's nothing wrong with the architecture of Bitcoin itself.  The concentration on one exchange has always been a bad thing.
2470 2013-04-10 18:16:07 <TD> i think it's more likely that some stuff in the ui talks to the trading engine to get stats,or something
2471 2013-04-10 18:16:12 <TD> they replaced their old graph with a static image
2472 2013-04-10 18:16:16 <TD> which rather suggests something like that
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2474 2013-04-10 18:16:42 <sydna> I can't imagine it was ever designed to be a high traffic website
2475 2013-04-10 18:16:49 <Scrat> in any case it's terrible system design all around, and this is offtopic
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2477 2013-04-10 18:17:15 <TD> they had DDoS protection for a long time. and Scrat i don't think anyone here except the tux himself knows exactly how mtgox works, so probably best not to pass judgement on their design
2478 2013-04-10 18:17:30 eli__ has joined
2479 2013-04-10 18:17:53 <d8> #bitcoin is voice-only right now, only about 5% of the people there can send to the channel... join ##bitcoin if you are moderated.
2480 2013-04-10 18:18:03 <sydna> we can conclude that the design is failing though
2481 2013-04-10 18:18:15 p` has joined
2482 2013-04-10 18:18:22 <TD> right now the entire world and its dog is trying to trade on mt gox
2483 2013-04-10 18:18:43 <TD> even the best designs reach their limits. so just chill and give mark time. he has never failed the community before and i don't think he's about to give up and go home
2484 2013-04-10 18:19:16 <mouseofthesteppe> if we download the bitcoin-qt from launchpad (which is where the ppa's are held I think) or sourceforge, we just have to trust that those accounts haven't been hacked, correct? I mean, their gpg signatures, sha1 and md5sum aren't the same as the ones released by the top of the top developers, no? So really the only option is to compile the code ourselves?
2485 2013-04-10 18:19:21 protojay_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2486 2013-04-10 18:19:33 <topi`> it's funny how both the bitcoin media exposure and new mtgox users have exploded
2487 2013-04-10 18:19:35 <Scrat> mouseofthesteppe: the other option is the linux binary
2488 2013-04-10 18:19:40 vlurg has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2489 2013-04-10 18:19:42 <devrandom> Luke-Jr: merged all, brb
2490 2013-04-10 18:19:42 <topi`> I mean the amount of new users
2491 2013-04-10 18:19:49 <sydna> unless you read through every line of code, downloading from source faces a similar problem
2492 2013-04-10 18:19:59 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: ty
2493 2013-04-10 18:20:05 <Scrat> which should work on most distros
2494 2013-04-10 18:21:05 MC-Droid has joined
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2496 2013-04-10 18:21:20 <mouseofthesteppe> where can i find the linux binary of btc? do i download it and use that to compile?
2497 2013-04-10 18:21:33 dbe has joined
2498 2013-04-10 18:21:39 <sydna> there's a linux binary on sourceforge.
2499 2013-04-10 18:21:45 oiram has joined
2500 2013-04-10 18:21:47 <sydna> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.1/bitcoin-0.8.1-linux.tar.gz/download
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2533 2013-04-10 18:31:33 <Vinnie_win> I was unfairly moderated out of #bitcoin...where can I go for help?
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2563 2013-04-10 18:39:54 <helo> a shell?
2564 2013-04-10 18:41:07 zxf is now known as gmaxwell_is_sato
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2568 2013-04-10 18:41:57 <Vinnie_win> huh?
2569 2013-04-10 18:42:02 <Vinnie_win> What does that mean
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2585 2013-04-10 18:46:57 <topi`> Vinnie_win: irc is a jungle. there's nobody you can complain to, just try to live with the unfairness
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2654 2013-04-10 19:05:19 <FatPig> hi
2655 2013-04-10 19:05:30 twobitcoins has joined
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2658 2013-04-10 19:05:47 <FatPig> is this a crash or an xchange hacked ?
2659 2013-04-10 19:05:59 <CluckCreek> crash
2660 2013-04-10 19:06:07 fishfish has joined
2661 2013-04-10 19:06:12 <FatPig> hmm
2662 2013-04-10 19:06:14 <wumpus> exchanges just overloaded afaik
2663 2013-04-10 19:06:17 qbasicer_ is now known as qbasicer
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2665 2013-04-10 19:06:24 <sneak> hi
2666 2013-04-10 19:06:25 <sipa> yeah
2667 2013-04-10 19:06:29 <FatPig> no issue found in the cryptography ? client ?
2668 2013-04-10 19:06:31 <sneak> anyone want some popcorn?
2669 2013-04-10 19:06:32 <wumpus> no
2670 2013-04-10 19:06:35 <FatPig> ok
2671 2013-04-10 19:06:38 <qbasicer> Please
2672 2013-04-10 19:06:38 <sydna> this is #bitcoin-dev.
2673 2013-04-10 19:06:44 <CluckCreek> Just a bubble bursting
2674 2013-04-10 19:06:49 <sneak> i can successfully spoof ecdsa signatures
2675 2013-04-10 19:06:54 <sneak> using that code that was just released
2676 2013-04-10 19:06:54 <wumpus> for bubble talk, go to #bitcoin-pricetalk
2677 2013-04-10 19:07:04 * sneak ducks
2678 2013-04-10 19:07:07 <FatPig> ok
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2683 2013-04-10 19:07:54 <CluckCreek> he was asking whether it was a technical problem. This is the correct channel.
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2697 2013-04-10 19:11:45 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: pong
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2703 2013-04-10 19:12:53 <_dr> sneak: wow, you must be the guy that broke rot13
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2706 2013-04-10 19:14:22 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: so a group of us have accomplished Mesa OpenCL mining; the main guy responsible (IMO) says he is being paid by AMD to fix the issues, and any bounty he accepted would need to go to AMD so he suggests putting X.Org Foundation in his place; he also says he doesn't feel it'd be fair to accept a bounty based on the work of many others who contributed to the OpenCL code
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2710 2013-04-10 19:15:14 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: on the other hand, perhaps you'd rather put the bounty toward someone who writes step-by-step instructions *shrug*
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2713 2013-04-10 19:15:49 <wumpus> that's interesting, so opencl in mesa is getting better, driven by bitcoin :P
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2717 2013-04-10 19:16:28 <wumpus> I suppose it's AMD only for now? or also nouveau?
2718 2013-04-10 19:16:32 <FatPig> how do I quit a channel ?
2719 2013-04-10 19:16:33 <ali1234> what's so great about mesa opencl?
2720 2013-04-10 19:16:40 <ali1234> FatPig: /part
2721 2013-04-10 19:16:42 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: not tested the latter
2722 2013-04-10 19:16:45 <diki> Here is my proposal. Can it work? http://pastebin.com/7q0EQ8fN
2723 2013-04-10 19:16:58 <FatPig> ok
2724 2013-04-10 19:16:58 <Luke-Jr> ali1234: it's free software
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2726 2013-04-10 19:16:59 <wumpus> what's not great about an actual open source implementation of opencl
2727 2013-04-10 19:17:21 <ali1234> Luke-Jr: oh, i see. so open source drivers? nice
2728 2013-04-10 19:17:26 <Luke-Jr> ali1234: right
2729 2013-04-10 19:17:49 <ali1234> diki: deterministic wallet?
2730 2013-04-10 19:17:50 <sydna> diki: that's already enabled somewhat with what Electrum and other clients do. the wallet is based on a central seed, and all subsequent addresses are generated from it.
2731 2013-04-10 19:18:09 <diki> ali1234:Oh, it already exists?
2732 2013-04-10 19:18:14 <diki> I did not know.
2733 2013-04-10 19:18:26 <ali1234> i don't know if it is implemented but it's certainly been proposed many times
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2735 2013-04-10 19:18:42 <ali1234> the general idea that is, maybe not your method exactly
2736 2013-04-10 19:18:44 <diki> guess I was late to the game
2737 2013-04-10 19:18:47 pkjy has joined
2738 2013-04-10 19:18:54 <Luke-Jr> diki: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0032
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2741 2013-04-10 19:20:32 <sydna> diki: still good that you're coming up with solutions though
2742 2013-04-10 19:20:52 <diki> Theoretically my proposal means a single back up forever.
2743 2013-04-10 19:21:02 <sipa> all deterministic wallets mean that
2744 2013-04-10 19:21:19 <diki> sipa:Which is why I said I was late to the game :)
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2747 2013-04-10 19:21:41 <sydna> deterministic wallets also don't fall to the offline attacks that "brain wallets" do
2748 2013-04-10 19:21:54 <sydna> which is somewhat reassuring.
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2752 2013-04-10 19:22:09 <sipa> sydna: brainwallet and deterministic wallets are not mutually exclusive
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2754 2013-04-10 19:22:56 <diki> I came up with the "already thought of idea" by checking old wallets for any bitcoins as I had many backups.
2755 2013-04-10 19:22:57 <sydna> sipa: one is based on a very large seed, one is sha256(password). people are universally awful at choosing passwords.
2756 2013-04-10 19:22:58 zxf is now known as Bitwich
2757 2013-04-10 19:23:07 <sipa> sydna: i absolutely agree
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2759 2013-04-10 19:23:23 <ali1234> that's not really a flaw of either idea though
2760 2013-04-10 19:23:30 <sipa> sydna: but if the deterministic seed is based on a password, you have a deterministic wallet that is a brainwallet
2761 2013-04-10 19:23:35 <ali1234> you could base either on a good or bad seed/passphrase
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2763 2013-04-10 19:23:54 <sydna> sydna: I would hope that any system like that is using scrypt with an obscenely high cost
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2767 2013-04-10 19:24:36 <sipa> trusting yourself to generate enough entropy for a seed is stupid
2768 2013-04-10 19:24:36 <Luke-Jr> brain wallets are only ever good if a computer generates them
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2771 2013-04-10 19:25:04 <sydna> I enjoyed the person who stored coins in the brain wallet "sausage".
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2774 2013-04-10 19:26:05 <BW^-> guys
2775 2013-04-10 19:26:22 <sipa> guy
2776 2013-04-10 19:26:25 <BW^-> what is the tendency now with btc:s, what happend with the exchange rate last 2 weeks?
2777 2013-04-10 19:26:34 bithammertime has joined
2778 2013-04-10 19:26:39 <sipa> BW^-: #bitcoin-pricetalk
2779 2013-04-10 19:26:41 <BW^-> i mean, how do you characterize the current thing - low 126, high 266, that's a huge difference
2780 2013-04-10 19:26:42 <BW^-> aha
2781 2013-04-10 19:26:49 <diki> what?
2782 2013-04-10 19:26:57 <diki> The lowest in 24hr is 126?
2783 2013-04-10 19:27:14 <ali1234> sydna: i managed to find a few passphrases that had been used in the past, but none with btc still in them
2784 2013-04-10 19:27:27 <ali1234> just guess obvious things like "qwerty"
2785 2013-04-10 19:27:28 <lianj> BW^-: same goes for 30 days, low 36 high 260
2786 2013-04-10 19:27:35 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2788 2013-04-10 19:27:55 <sydna> ali1234: from what people have posted on the forums, there is at least one person monitoring new TX and transferring out any funds that enter them
2789 2013-04-10 19:28:06 <BW^-> sipa: oh dear, sorry, thought i said this on another channel
2790 2013-04-10 19:28:11 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
2791 2013-04-10 19:28:18 <BW^-> lianj: when and where was it 36?
2792 2013-04-10 19:28:20 <sydna> ali1234: I sent a tiny amount to a common brain wallet, and it was gone within 30 minutes
2793 2013-04-10 19:28:25 necessity has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2795 2013-04-10 19:28:51 <diki> I hope the bitcointalk DDoS stops.
2796 2013-04-10 19:28:53 LainZ has joined
2797 2013-04-10 19:28:59 <ali1234> sydna: i don't doubt it
2798 2013-04-10 19:29:04 <diki> it's frustrating to need to look for something and waiting minutes
2799 2013-04-10 19:29:15 <sipa> diki: then don't visit the forum :)
2800 2013-04-10 19:29:36 <sydna> diki: ideally there'd be a seperated archive somewhere, but as far as I am aware there isn't
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2802 2013-04-10 19:30:11 pkjy has quit (Quit: Bye)
2803 2013-04-10 19:30:26 <wumpus> yes the "ddos" is simply all the visiting users imo
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2805 2013-04-10 19:31:04 <sydna> it's more likely than somebody attacking all of the exchanges and bitcointalk at once
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2809 2013-04-10 19:32:02 <ali1234> i would guess it's a little of both tbh
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2812 2013-04-10 19:32:21 <allanlw> what exactly limits the block sizes now?
2813 2013-04-10 19:32:28 pkjy has joined
2814 2013-04-10 19:32:28 <allanlw> number of transactions?
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2817 2013-04-10 19:32:43 <sipa> allanlw: the block size limit
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2825 2013-04-10 19:33:09 <allanlw> sipa: which is?
2826 2013-04-10 19:33:21 charliemurphy is now known as oppie
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2828 2013-04-10 19:33:35 <oppie> What happened that btc dropped?
2829 2013-04-10 19:33:36 <sipa> allanlw: 1 MiB
2830 2013-04-10 19:33:47 <sipa> allanlw: sorry, 1 MB
2831 2013-04-10 19:33:54 <sipa> oppie: #bitcoin-pricetalk
2832 2013-04-10 19:34:00 <BlueMatt> oppie: north korea launched a missile at the datacenter that runs all of bitcoin's central servers
2833 2013-04-10 19:34:01 <allanlw> oh okay cool
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2858 2013-04-10 19:43:53 <_g> did bitcoin otc turn back on authed-to-gribble to talk in there?
2859 2013-04-10 19:43:55 <_g> i can't get into #bitcoin either
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2868 2013-04-10 19:45:59 <jh2o2389> _g: there is nothing special in #bitcoin, the same talk as every time.
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2870 2013-04-10 19:46:28 <_g> jh2o2389: ofc, i am just surprised i can't even get in, and i am not able to talk in otc
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2874 2013-04-10 19:46:47 <_g> i just wanted to get a feel for what otc is trading at since none of the exchange information is reliable
2875 2013-04-10 19:47:04 <jh2o2389> _g: yes, the channels are muted for a time.
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2883 2013-04-10 19:49:06 <jh2o2389> _g: all information you will get to the price now, I would not trust. The informatoon (e.g. market price) is getting stable now. there is also #bitcoin-pricetalk or so. Maybe you can get there in.
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2890 2013-04-10 19:51:28 <gmaxwell> jh2o2389: #bitcoin is forwarding on overflow to #bitcoin-pricetalk now apparently.
2891 2013-04-10 19:51:38 <jh2o2389> _g: there are currently ~ 2k ppl in #bitcoin. Its hard to read. I'm sure when this price thing will be more stable, the channel will be open.
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2897 2013-04-10 19:52:50 <jh2o2389> gmaxwell: yes, i noticed. Thank you.
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2904 2013-04-10 19:55:53 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Actually, I'm not op there and +F isn't set on -pricetalk, so I had to build #bitcoin-overflow instead. I then put in the topic there they can join -pricetalk manually. I figure it would be a good way to filter clue.
2905 2013-04-10 19:55:58 <midnightmagic> Plus blame imsaguy for the idea.
2906 2013-04-10 19:56:01 a_meteorite has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2907 2013-04-10 19:56:20 <imsaguy> lol midnightmagic
2908 2013-04-10 19:56:28 Beef has joined
2909 2013-04-10 19:56:29 <midnightmagic> This is only for the web-based IRC users.
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2922 2013-04-10 19:58:56 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: you're op in #bitcoin-pricetalk
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2924 2013-04-10 19:59:23 <K1773R> oh, i lost my +v here :( dc'd
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2932 2013-04-10 20:01:38 <jh2o2389> ok, I need to leave. This was an interesting day. Thank you for the work guys, and keep calm like as I met you.
2933 2013-04-10 20:02:44 <lianj> o/
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2962 2013-04-10 20:11:48 wallet43 has joined
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2964 2013-04-10 20:12:11 <wallet43> can anyone try getrawmempool | wc -l ?
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2967 2013-04-10 20:12:50 <sipa> 2703 here
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2969 2013-04-10 20:13:02 <wallet43> whats average?
2970 2013-04-10 20:13:09 <sipa> no idea
2971 2013-04-10 20:13:29 <wallet43> hm seems to be a lot of 0 fee tx
2972 2013-04-10 20:13:42 <wallet43> so normal its that high
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2975 2013-04-10 20:14:15 <Varan> Are they some good proposals for a p2p exchange?
2976 2013-04-10 20:14:29 <Scrat> Varan: the original ripple model
2977 2013-04-10 20:14:35 <Scrat> (not ripple.com)
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2986 2013-04-10 20:15:39 <Varan> Oke
2987 2013-04-10 20:15:45 <ltc1111> are the forums down?
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2989 2013-04-10 20:15:58 <Varan> Scrat, Do you have a link for that?
2990 2013-04-10 20:16:51 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: thanks.
2991 2013-04-10 20:17:08 <wallet43> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripple_monetary_system
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2993 2013-04-10 20:17:24 <bibbybob> Is there a testnet-in-a-box that is compatible with 0.8 and also includes some coins ready to be spent?
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2997 2013-04-10 20:17:46 <Scrat> Varan: here's a good video of it also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mD4L7xDNCmA#t=1491s
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2999 2013-04-10 20:18:00 <vrs> bibbybob: yes, in fact I think it has exactly this name
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3003 2013-04-10 20:18:40 <vrs> oh, I don't know about the 0.8 part though
3004 2013-04-10 20:18:42 <wallet43> lol i love his intro to mt gox already ;)
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3006 2013-04-10 20:18:59 <bibbybob> vrs, the one on sourceforge still seems to be for 0.7
3007 2013-04-10 20:19:01 <wallet43> bibbybob: have you tried to only use the config files fom testnet in a box?
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3009 2013-04-10 20:19:12 <wallet43> but with 0.8.1 binaries
3010 2013-04-10 20:19:20 <Varan> Scrat, thanks
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3015 2013-04-10 20:19:54 <vrs> https://github.com/freewil/bitcoin-testnet-box/commits/master github version should have 0.8
3016 2013-04-10 20:20:09 <bibbybob> wallet43, wouldn't that result in making a completely new chain? If so, I'm afraid that's not an option since mining on my computer is way too slow
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3020 2013-04-10 20:20:44 <bibbybob> vrs, I already tried that...sadly it doesn't come with any coins at all and so I'll have to mine blocks first, which is horribly slow :(
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3022 2013-04-10 20:21:12 <vrs> even with diff 1?
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3025 2013-04-10 20:21:25 <freewil> vrs, bibbybob yes it would be great if someone could adjust the datadirs down to difficulty 1
3026 2013-04-10 20:21:30 <freewil> ive been meaning to do that
3027 2013-04-10 20:21:33 <vrs> ah
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3057 2013-04-10 20:32:44 <K1773R> bibbybob:
3058 2013-04-10 20:32:56 <K1773R> * bibbybob: the testnet in a boox already comes with coins
3059 2013-04-10 20:33:03 <K1773R> get the SF release
3060 2013-04-10 20:33:32 gigizzo has joined
3061 2013-04-10 20:33:36 <bibbybob> K1773R, this version doesn't work with 0.8 though
3062 2013-04-10 20:33:47 <K1773R> oh, right
3063 2013-04-10 20:33:52 <K1773R> still, its diff 1, so no problem
3064 2013-04-10 20:34:03 <K1773R> well, in facts its diff 0.5
3065 2013-04-10 20:34:08 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3066 2013-04-10 20:35:00 DrAkaman has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
3067 2013-04-10 20:35:06 hatsaresilly has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3068 2013-04-10 20:35:54 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3069 2013-04-10 20:35:59 <bibbybob> mining's slow though for my computer and a block needs a fair number of confirmations before its coinbase can be spent
3070 2013-04-10 20:36:16 <bibbybob> It's ok though, I'll just use 0.7. That'll work for my needs.
3071 2013-04-10 20:37:37 Varan has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3072 2013-04-10 20:38:07 <wallet43> mempool at 3.6K
3073 2013-04-10 20:38:32 pablog has joined
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3075 2013-04-10 20:38:32 pablog has joined
3076 2013-04-10 20:39:17 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3077 2013-04-10 20:39:19 <MC-Droid_> An idea
3078 2013-04-10 20:39:23 <wallet43> bibbybob, cant you use the default testnet?
3079 2013-04-10 20:39:37 a_meteorite has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3080 2013-04-10 20:39:41 g0hww has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3081 2013-04-10 20:39:48 <MC-Droid_> Chart the size of the me pool over a couple of weeks and see if usage fits other human driven usage curves
3082 2013-04-10 20:40:01 <MC-Droid_> Like internet bandwidth usage etc
3083 2013-04-10 20:40:03 <bibbybob> wallet43, I actually never considered that. I probably can!
3084 2013-04-10 20:40:13 i2pRelay has joined
3085 2013-04-10 20:40:22 <MC-Droid_> See how much is people and how much is machine
3086 2013-04-10 20:40:57 a_meteorite has joined
3087 2013-04-10 20:41:27 K1773R is now known as K1773R|OFF
3088 2013-04-10 20:42:32 <wallet43> bibbybob, if you need coins, i can sell them very cheap: 0 USD / BTC (testnet)
3089 2013-04-10 20:42:35 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3090 2013-04-10 20:42:42 Belxjander has joined
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3093 2013-04-10 20:43:09 ltc1111 has joined
3094 2013-04-10 20:43:30 dogobaba has joined
3095 2013-04-10 20:43:38 <bibbybob> wallet43, awesome, give me a minute and I'll give you an address
3096 2013-04-10 20:43:57 <ltc1111> what going on with the forums, taking 1 min to load a page, is it just me?
3097 2013-04-10 20:44:10 Odyessus has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
3098 2013-04-10 20:44:28 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3099 2013-04-10 20:44:50 fishfish has quit (Quit: Bye!)
3100 2013-04-10 20:44:57 <bibbybob> It's going slow for me too now.
3101 2013-04-10 20:46:05 zrad has joined
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3103 2013-04-10 20:46:39 Peacemaker420 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3104 2013-04-10 20:46:44 Xqr has joined
3105 2013-04-10 20:46:49 <wallet43> hm.. maybe testnet in a box should have spendable coins in a premined wallet.dat?
3106 2013-04-10 20:47:02 <sipa> i thought it did
3107 2013-04-10 20:47:06 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
3108 2013-04-10 20:47:12 <wallet43> not when i used it
3109 2013-04-10 20:47:18 <wallet43> but that was like 2 months ago
3110 2013-04-10 20:47:20 <tcatm> Is this "bug" known? LevelDB read failure: Corruption: block checksum mismatch
3111 2013-04-10 20:47:40 <sipa> tcatm: what happened?
3112 2013-04-10 20:47:45 <wallet43> ohoh
3113 2013-04-10 20:47:46 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3114 2013-04-10 20:47:56 cyphurnz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3115 2013-04-10 20:47:58 <tcatm> Downloaded bootstrap.dat to bootstrap a new 0.8.1 node
3116 2013-04-10 20:47:59 a_meteorite has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3117 2013-04-10 20:48:13 <tcatm> That happened after maybe 225k blocks
3118 2013-04-10 20:48:22 <sipa> :'(
3119 2013-04-10 20:48:34 desidero has quit (Quit: leaving)
3120 2013-04-10 20:48:39 i2pRelay has joined
3121 2013-04-10 20:48:40 Odyessus has joined
3122 2013-04-10 20:49:19 a_meteorite has joined
3123 2013-04-10 20:49:49 <tcatm> debug.log: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=sYVLzNsx
3124 2013-04-10 20:50:01 bigti[ has joined
3125 2013-04-10 20:50:58 vipah has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3126 2013-04-10 20:51:05 viperhr1 has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
3127 2013-04-10 20:51:09 <lianj> tcatm: the bootstrap file is valid?
3128 2013-04-10 20:51:15 taha has joined
3129 2013-04-10 20:51:26 viperhr1 has joined
3130 2013-04-10 20:51:30 gigizzo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3131 2013-04-10 20:51:44 <tcatm> lianj: yes. it's from the torrent
3132 2013-04-10 20:51:48 jsfsn has joined
3133 2013-04-10 20:51:51 <bibbybob> wallet43, mjBG4wk2JdMUdnZiBxUi9UAAWt3GW71Ekr
3134 2013-04-10 20:52:06 ConceptPending has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3135 2013-04-10 20:52:19 bigti[ is now known as bigtip
3136 2013-04-10 20:53:01 farang has left ()
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3138 2013-04-10 20:54:06 safra has joined
3139 2013-04-10 20:54:21 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3140 2013-04-10 20:55:25 <sipa> tcatm: is it reproducbiel?
3141 2013-04-10 20:55:57 <tcatm> No idea how I should try that without verifying everything again :/
3142 2013-04-10 20:56:12 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3143 2013-04-10 20:56:16 <tcatm> I restarted bitcoind and it is downloading blocks
3144 2013-04-10 20:56:26 a_meteorite has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3145 2013-04-10 20:56:29 Grouver has joined
3146 2013-04-10 20:56:49 <sipa> tcatm: from 0, or continuing?
3147 2013-04-10 20:56:51 <bibbybob> wallet43, thanks a ton!
3148 2013-04-10 20:57:00 cyphurnz has joined
3149 2013-04-10 20:57:01 <tcatm> sipa: continuing from 230000
3150 2013-04-10 20:57:05 i2pRelay has joined
3151 2013-04-10 20:57:11 <sipa> tcatm: that's even weirder
3152 2013-04-10 20:57:20 <sipa> tcatm: that the checksum error was temporary?
3153 2013-04-10 20:57:31 <tcatm> yep
3154 2013-04-10 20:57:36 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3155 2013-04-10 20:57:40 abadr has left ()
3156 2013-04-10 20:57:43 Belxjander has joined
3157 2013-04-10 20:57:46 a_meteorite has joined
3158 2013-04-10 20:58:06 <sipa> tcatm: no disk errors reported or so?
3159 2013-04-10 20:58:11 <tcatm> nope
3160 2013-04-10 20:58:25 <tcatm> raid is fully working, too
3161 2013-04-10 20:58:50 DJ_Sweetums has quit (Quit: DJ_Sweetums)
3162 2013-04-10 20:58:59 desidero has joined
3163 2013-04-10 20:59:10 pacpac has joined
3164 2013-04-10 20:59:55 * jgarzik wishes we had better metrics about the performance of the P2P network
3165 2013-04-10 21:00:13 dogobaba has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3166 2013-04-10 21:00:22 <sipa> jgarzik: such as?
3167 2013-04-10 21:00:40 Odyessus has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
3168 2013-04-10 21:00:43 <jgarzik> sipa: whether we are "running out of sockets" or not, for one.
3169 2013-04-10 21:01:06 <jgarzik> sipa: and some way to notice when the nodes are being DDoS'd
3170 2013-04-10 21:01:10 <sipa> right
3171 2013-04-10 21:01:25 <sipa> tcatm: i can't explain that, but it would be a leveldb issue...
3172 2013-04-10 21:01:31 <sipa> (or a hardware issue)
3173 2013-04-10 21:01:59 <tcatm> I think the machine has ECC memory.
3174 2013-04-10 21:02:04 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3175 2013-04-10 21:02:15 <tcatm> But yeah, maybe an undetected bit flip somewhere.
3176 2013-04-10 21:02:23 _pr has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3177 2013-04-10 21:02:57 BlackPrapor has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3178 2013-04-10 21:03:13 <mahler> what is the transaction-limit per block?
3179 2013-04-10 21:03:45 <sipa> in theory: unlimited; in practice: limited to some 7tx/block because of the block size limit
3180 2013-04-10 21:03:54 bigti[ has joined
3181 2013-04-10 21:04:20 <mahler> I'm sorry, that's what I mean: what is the block size limit in 0.7.x --- what what is it in 0.8.x
3182 2013-04-10 21:04:36 strk has joined
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3184 2013-04-10 21:04:55 <sipa> there is no specific limit on the number of transactions in either
3185 2013-04-10 21:05:31 i2pRelay has joined
3186 2013-04-10 21:05:32 <sipa> 0.7.x nodes fail when a single block or reorganization affects more than ~4800 transactions (_affected_ transactions, not number of transactions in the block itself)
3187 2013-04-10 21:05:36 a_meteorite has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3188 2013-04-10 21:05:46 <sipa> 0.8.1 has a temporary rule to forbid such blocks
3189 2013-04-10 21:05:54 bigtip has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3190 2013-04-10 21:05:56 <jgarzik> P.S. current git HEAD is completely awesome, WRT memory usage
3191 2013-04-10 21:06:02 <Bitwit> m
3192 2013-04-10 21:06:13 <jgarzik> my two public (and statically coded-into-DNS-seed) nodes are doing well
3193 2013-04-10 21:06:13 <mahler> ah that explains exactly what I was hoping to figure out. You're good with unstanding questions. Thanks sipa
3194 2013-04-10 21:06:17 <jgarzik> ~320m RSS
3195 2013-04-10 21:06:22 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, it really is sipa & BlueMatt did a good job on the patches
3196 2013-04-10 21:06:31 <sipa> and jgarzik :)
3197 2013-04-10 21:06:38 <sipa> because my patch was based on changes by him :D
3198 2013-04-10 21:06:43 <phantomcircuit> lol ok
3199 2013-04-10 21:06:57 a_meteorite has joined
3200 2013-04-10 21:07:04 <jgarzik> yeah I think the commit messages might mention me ;p
3201 2013-04-10 21:07:11 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: I barely did anything...
3202 2013-04-10 21:07:22 <BlueMatt> also, we still have work to do, it /slowly/ leaks memory
3203 2013-04-10 21:07:23 <sipa> jgarzik: most of them are _authored_ by use
3204 2013-04-10 21:07:26 <sipa> jgarzik: *you
3205 2013-04-10 21:07:38 <phantomcircuit> ahah
3206 2013-04-10 21:07:41 <phantomcircuit> i did not know this
3207 2013-04-10 21:07:43 <mouseofthesteppe> sydna: something you told me a bunch of hours ago, if you're still here or if not someone else goes as such: you said there was a linux binary file in sourceforge to check authenticity. Is that file the one we use as the base from which to start compiling the client, or is it the already compiled client which will have Andresen's gpg signature on it?
3208 2013-04-10 21:07:47 * jgarzik was trying to be modest
3209 2013-04-10 21:07:52 <phantomcircuit> lol
3210 2013-04-10 21:08:00 <sipa> i added one to to the same for sending as what jgarzik did for receiving
3211 2013-04-10 21:08:23 <sipa> and then changed to processing of getdata's from per request to per-entry
3212 2013-04-10 21:08:44 daveluke has joined
3213 2013-04-10 21:09:19 daveluke_ has joined
3214 2013-04-10 21:10:42 <sipa> jgarzik: there's one pullreq left that removes a few MiB of RES :)
3215 2013-04-10 21:10:56 bigti[ is now known as bigtip
3216 2013-04-10 21:11:12 <sipa> BlueMatt: btw, want to send a pullreq to put the pulltester patches in contrib?
3217 2013-04-10 21:11:16 <jsfsn> Is it possible to create a raw transaction (unsigned) with an encrypted wallet while not decrypting it?
3218 2013-04-10 21:11:19 SwedFTP has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3219 2013-04-10 21:11:21 <BlueMatt> sipa: yea........
3220 2013-04-10 21:11:28 <sipa> jsfsn: should be
3221 2013-04-10 21:11:38 SwedFTP has joined
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3225 2013-04-10 21:12:01 <jsfsn> sipa: So it should be possible to use a hot encrypted wallet to create a transaction, sign it with a cold one and then send it with the hot one?
3226 2013-04-10 21:12:07 <jsfsn> Without every decrypting the hot one?
3227 2013-04-10 21:12:11 <jsfsn> every/s/y
3228 2013-04-10 21:12:21 cheako has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
3229 2013-04-10 21:12:36 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3230 2013-04-10 21:12:43 Belxjander has joined
3231 2013-04-10 21:12:45 <sipa> jsfsn: the two wallets will go out of sync
3232 2013-04-10 21:12:59 <jsfsn> Does it matter?
3233 2013-04-10 21:13:04 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3234 2013-04-10 21:13:04 daveluke has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3235 2013-04-10 21:13:04 daveluke_ is now known as daveluke
3236 2013-04-10 21:13:23 <jsfsn> The cold wallet is just there to sign the transaction
3237 2013-04-10 21:13:33 <Prattler> be sure to use a large keypoolsize, if I understand the out of sync part
3238 2013-04-10 21:13:41 <sipa> after 100 transactions the keys to sign the transactions created by the hot wallet won't be in the cold wallet anymore
3239 2013-04-10 21:13:59 i2pRelay has joined
3240 2013-04-10 21:14:10 a_meteorite has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3241 2013-04-10 21:14:11 <jsfsn> Right
3242 2013-04-10 21:14:21 <jsfsn> Can more keys be pre-generated?
3243 2013-04-10 21:14:46 <Prattler> bitcoind -daemon -keypool=<n> and bitcoind keypoolrefill
3244 2013-04-10 21:14:49 <Prattler> or something like that
3245 2013-04-10 21:14:51 SatoshiCashedOut has left ()
3246 2013-04-10 21:15:34 a_meteorite has joined
3247 2013-04-10 21:15:54 <jsfsn> Are there reasons not to fill it up in thousands?
3248 2013-04-10 21:16:03 Bitwit has quit ()
3249 2013-04-10 21:16:15 MC1984 has joined
3250 2013-04-10 21:16:18 allanlw is now known as tylerni8
3251 2013-04-10 21:16:21 <sipa> size of your wallet file
3252 2013-04-10 21:17:11 bitm0n has joined
3253 2013-04-10 21:17:39 <jsfsn> sipa: Is there a better way of making transactions from a cold wallet?
3254 2013-04-10 21:17:50 tylerni8 is now known as allanlw
3255 2013-04-10 21:17:58 <sipa> jsfsn: currently, use armory
3256 2013-04-10 21:18:04 MC-Droid_ has quit (Quit: Bye)
3257 2013-04-10 21:18:38 mahler has left ()
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3259 2013-04-10 21:19:03 <jsfsn> sipa: How does armory solve it?
3260 2013-04-10 21:19:19 <RedEmerald> type 2 wallets
3261 2013-04-10 21:19:19 <jsfsn> sipa: Sorry if I'm asking too many questions by the way and thanks for answering them.
3262 2013-04-10 21:19:31 richcollins has joined
3263 2013-04-10 21:19:35 <RedEmerald> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Deterministic_wallet#Type_2_deterministic_wallet
3264 2013-04-10 21:19:38 <wallet43> if its a coldstorage anyway, cant i just use random seed, then sha256(r+i) for using pvt keys?
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3268 2013-04-10 21:21:18 K1773R is now known as OFF!~K1773Rfre@unaffiliated/k1773r|K1773R
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3270 2013-04-10 21:22:24 i2pRelay has joined
3271 2013-04-10 21:22:40 <jsfsn> I much rather use bitcoind though
3272 2013-04-10 21:22:58 xenesis has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3273 2013-04-10 21:22:58 xenesis_ is now known as xenesis
3274 2013-04-10 21:23:06 viperhr1 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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3276 2013-04-10 21:24:10 PK has quit ()
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3283 2013-04-10 21:27:36 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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3285 2013-04-10 21:28:59 <wallet43> https://blockchain.info/address/16ga2uqnF1NqpAuQeeg7sTCAdtDUwDyJav
3286 2013-04-10 21:29:13 <diki> ;;seen crazy_rabbit
3287 2013-04-10 21:29:15 <gribble> I have not seen crazy_rabbit.
3288 2013-04-10 21:29:31 <wallet43> echo -n password | sha256sum
3289 2013-04-10 21:29:52 <wallet43> funny somone actually used it :D
3290 2013-04-10 21:29:56 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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3297 2013-04-10 21:32:47 <mouseofthesteppe> Should the Debian package of bitcoin-qt.tar.gz also validate to Gavin's public key, or to Matt's?
3298 2013-04-10 21:32:49 a_meteorite has joined
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3304 2013-04-10 21:36:55 bitm0n is now known as Bitbutt
3305 2013-04-10 21:37:04 Bitbutt is now known as Bitbuot
3306 2013-04-10 21:37:04 <gmaxwell> 13:25 < tcatm> Is this "bug" known? LevelDB read failure: Corruption: block checksum mismatch
3307 2013-04-10 21:37:17 <gmaxwell> there were some known issues on some versions of btrfs if you're running that,
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3346 2013-04-10 21:57:54 <D34TH> BlueMatt: same error
3347 2013-04-10 21:58:16 bibbybob has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3348 2013-04-10 21:58:41 a_meteorite has joined
3349 2013-04-10 21:59:15 Ranvier__ has joined
3350 2013-04-10 21:59:22 TeIoo\ is now known as Yhafo0
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3353 2013-04-10 22:00:20 <BlueMatt> D34TH: ugg, havent had time to fix it...
3354 2013-04-10 22:00:30 <D34TH> D:
3355 2013-04-10 22:00:32 sebicas has joined
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3364 2013-04-10 22:04:12 sheldor has joined
3365 2013-04-10 22:04:23 <wallet43> how far is BIP_0032?
3366 2013-04-10 22:04:27 i2pRelay has joined
3367 2013-04-10 22:04:32 <wallet43> i like the idea very much
3368 2013-04-10 22:04:46 daveluke has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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3371 2013-04-10 22:04:52 <wallet43> but i dont know about attack vectors?
3372 2013-04-10 22:05:01 leakybuckit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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3375 2013-04-10 22:05:14 <wallet43> and proply not smart enouch to come up with some ;)
3376 2013-04-10 22:05:20 <sipa> wallet43: there is one known problem, listed in the security section
3377 2013-04-10 22:05:29 <sipa> wallet43: which we'd like to fix still
3378 2013-04-10 22:05:35 <sipa> but i need to find the time to write it up
3379 2013-04-10 22:06:17 bnc_do_chorao_ has joined
3380 2013-04-10 22:06:19 xenesis_ has joined
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3382 2013-04-10 22:06:31 <wallet43> does that really work? knowing M and deriving all pub keys (audit usecase)
3383 2013-04-10 22:06:41 a_meteorite has joined
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3385 2013-04-10 22:06:55 <sipa> sure
3386 2013-04-10 22:07:00 Elmf has joined
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3388 2013-04-10 22:07:09 <sipa> that's the entire purpose
3389 2013-04-10 22:07:14 <wallet43> gosh why havent i contined my math studies :/
3390 2013-04-10 22:07:20 <wallet43> its so beutiful
3391 2013-04-10 22:07:23 <wallet43> beautiful
3392 2013-04-10 22:07:43 TD has joined
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3394 2013-04-10 22:08:31 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3395 2013-04-10 22:08:33 <diki> finally
3396 2013-04-10 22:08:39 <diki> bitcointalk.org back to it's usual speed
3397 2013-04-10 22:08:46 <Jere_Jones> Is there a channel for pool dev?
3398 2013-04-10 22:09:43 xenesis has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3399 2013-04-10 22:10:13 saulimus has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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3403 2013-04-10 22:11:31 <jgarzik> Jere_Jones: #bitcoin-mining ?
3404 2013-04-10 22:11:33 bitcoin-dev436 has joined
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3406 2013-04-10 22:12:53 i2pRelay has joined
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3409 2013-04-10 22:13:31 a_meteorite has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3410 2013-04-10 22:14:40 <diki> darn
3411 2013-04-10 22:14:43 <diki> ddos back again
3412 2013-04-10 22:14:54 <MaxValor> looks that way
3413 2013-04-10 22:15:00 a_meteorite has joined
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3415 2013-04-10 22:16:02 Yhafo0 is now known as ceoiman
3416 2013-04-10 22:16:06 <diki> You'd think that whoever owns a botnet enough to slow down a few exchanges wouldn't just use them to mine alt-coins, like scrypt based or something and just earn more money
3417 2013-04-10 22:16:34 _pr has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3418 2013-04-10 22:16:52 <MaxValor> depends what your goal is
3419 2013-04-10 22:17:04 <MaxValor> the cliche, some folks just want to watch the world burn is worth more than the money
3420 2013-04-10 22:17:35 <diki> And the exchanges aren't realeasing any information on where the attack comes from, if at all possible to identify.
3421 2013-04-10 22:17:48 <MaxValor> I've got mixed feelings about that
3422 2013-04-10 22:18:07 <MaxValor> on one hand I want to know, on the other if we find out it could cause some major issues if it was a handfull of people/organisations/governments
3423 2013-04-10 22:18:21 <MaxValor> that being said some communication ought to be happening other than the little to none that has been today
3424 2013-04-10 22:18:34 <Jere_Jones> jgarzik: Just a bunch of people arguing about drivers and video cards in there.  I'm looking for somewhere to discuss lessons-learned while developing a pool.
3425 2013-04-10 22:18:35 <diki> But if it was a single man, or a small group of 5 people or so
3426 2013-04-10 22:18:43 <diki> it would be interesting to go to their house/base of operation
3427 2013-04-10 22:18:47 <diki> and deal with them tough guy style
3428 2013-04-10 22:18:58 <MaxValor> i was thinking with a platoon
3429 2013-04-10 22:19:07 <MaxValor> to be messing with this kind of money
3430 2013-04-10 22:19:14 <MaxValor> serious business
3431 2013-04-10 22:19:16 addyyyy has joined
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3433 2013-04-10 22:19:41 <diki> this bunch is plenty http://a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/74/8bc942bbe71f4bad8454a2e1f4a8e24c/l.jpg
3434 2013-04-10 22:19:44 GlitchNZ has joined
3435 2013-04-10 22:20:03 <MaxValor> nothing a coordinated jdam or hellfire strike couldnt solve im sure
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3438 2013-04-10 22:21:32 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3439 2013-04-10 22:21:49 GlitchNZ_ has joined
3440 2013-04-10 22:22:03 <GlitchNZ_> Is it right the the total value of funds given in 'listunspent' is less than the total balance of all accounts in my wallet?
3441 2013-04-10 22:22:22 <GlitchNZ_> (listunspent was called with 0 confirmations)
3442 2013-04-10 22:22:59 safra has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3443 2013-04-10 22:23:00 <diki> price crashed again
3444 2013-04-10 22:23:26 addyyyy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3445 2013-04-10 22:23:31 a_meteorite has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3446 2013-04-10 22:23:51 GlitchNZ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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3451 2013-04-10 22:25:55 <tcatm> gmaxwell: ext4
3452 2013-04-10 22:26:23 xenesis has joined
3453 2013-04-10 22:26:31 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ_: are you failing to add in the "" account which can be negative?
3454 2013-04-10 22:26:46 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3455 2013-04-10 22:27:21 copumpkin has joined
3456 2013-04-10 22:27:21 <GlitchNZ_> no sorry, i mis stated the question - the total of all unspent did equal the total balance of all accounts
3457 2013-04-10 22:27:48 <GlitchNZ_> what was odd is the balance for a particular account did not equal the value returned by lisunspent for that accounts address
3458 2013-04-10 22:28:08 <GlitchNZ_> syntax is correct - same commands work as expected for other accounts
3459 2013-04-10 22:28:52 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3460 2013-04-10 22:29:20 <GlitchNZ_> getbalance: TEST = 208.99945000, listunspent for the address for account TEST adds up to 100.00000000
3461 2013-04-10 22:29:46 i2pRelay has joined
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3463 2013-04-10 22:30:44 Wayward- is now known as Wayward
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3465 2013-04-10 22:31:13 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ_: you're misunderstanding accounts there— the coupling is loose.
3466 2013-04-10 22:31:17 MobiusL has joined
3467 2013-04-10 22:31:24 gigizzo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3468 2013-04-10 22:31:29 <gmaxwell> an address is "in" an account only for the purpose of adding recieved funds on that address to the account.
3469 2013-04-10 22:31:36 one_zero has joined
3470 2013-04-10 22:31:41 creftos has joined
3471 2013-04-10 22:32:06 <gmaxwell> e.g. you can recieve a 10 BTC coin into "foo" ... then you spend 10 BTC from ""  and it uses that coin.. and foo still has a balance of 10.
3472 2013-04-10 22:32:16 a_meteorite has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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3487 2013-04-10 22:39:49 <creftos> Hey so I'm trying to get bitcoin setup in eclipse cdt. I've downloaded all the dependencies and everything and can build it with make in the shell, but eclipse is shows errors for instance "AboutDialog::AboutDialog(QWidget *parent) :" in about dialog for qt says member declaration not found.
3488 2013-04-10 22:40:15 sdfsersdfvjpk has joined
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3491 2013-04-10 22:40:42 <creftos> I'm pretty new to using CDT, so I'm not really sure how to fix the problem. Is it an indexing problem?
3492 2013-04-10 22:41:50 <CodeShark> have you run qtmake?
3493 2013-04-10 22:41:54 XRPTrader2 has quit (Quit: XRPTrader2)
3494 2013-04-10 22:41:56 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
3495 2013-04-10 22:42:19 a_meteorite has joined
3496 2013-04-10 22:43:48 <CodeShark> nvm, I have no idea - I don't use eclipse
3497 2013-04-10 22:43:53 tyn has joined
3498 2013-04-10 22:44:24 <creftos> Yeah it's an eclipse problem not a bitcoin one
3499 2013-04-10 22:44:42 <creftos> What do people here use for development?
3500 2013-04-10 22:45:00 <CodeShark> I'm not sure IDEs are particularly popular amongst the hardcore hackers here :p
3501 2013-04-10 22:45:34 n5 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3502 2013-04-10 22:45:42 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3503 2013-04-10 22:45:51 <CodeShark> just gcc, llvm, etc...
3504 2013-04-10 22:45:58 <CodeShark> :p
3505 2013-04-10 22:46:23 <creftos> hmm
3506 2013-04-10 22:46:37 i2pRelay has joined
3507 2013-04-10 22:46:49 ltc1111 is now known as min0r1
3508 2013-04-10 22:47:05 <creftos> Everyone has their thing I guess. Eclipse makes me more productive.
3509 2013-04-10 22:47:30 <lianj> for c++?
3510 2013-04-10 22:47:34 min0r1 is now known as min0r
3511 2013-04-10 22:47:35 <creftos> I'm more of a java developer, so I'm pretty used to eclipse already too.
3512 2013-04-10 22:47:39 <CodeShark> I like to use XCode sometimes as an editor - but I do all my building/debugging from the commanr line
3513 2013-04-10 22:47:53 <creftos> lianj: Well I dunno, I just started using cdt :)
3514 2013-04-10 22:47:53 <CodeShark> *command
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3517 2013-04-10 22:48:12 K1NN6 has joined
3518 2013-04-10 22:48:20 <creftos> lianj: cdt is the C++ package for eclipse btw
3519 2013-04-10 22:48:25 K1NN6 has left ()
3520 2013-04-10 22:48:52 <lianj> "more of a java developer" explains it
3521 2013-04-10 22:49:01 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3522 2013-04-10 22:49:11 <creftos> yep
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3524 2013-04-10 22:49:22 fehiti is now known as seheo
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3526 2013-04-10 22:49:53 <creftos> lianj: what do you develop in?
3527 2013-04-10 22:50:32 <lianj> tmux/vim
3528 2013-04-10 22:50:36 <CodeShark> I don't like to rely too much on a very big IDE because it makes it harder to make those quick hacks on machines I sometimes have to do just using ssh :p
3529 2013-04-10 22:51:38 <CodeShark> I also use vim a lot
3530 2013-04-10 22:52:19 <creftos> I have some experience with vim, but I like eclipse because it tells me when there are errors right off the bat without having to compile.
3531 2013-04-10 22:52:34 ircleuser has joined
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3533 2013-04-10 22:53:21 <CodeShark> yeah, features like that and autocomplete are kind of nice
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3536 2013-04-10 22:54:21 * lianj uses vim with autocomplete
3537 2013-04-10 22:54:21 XRPTrader2 has joined
3538 2013-04-10 22:54:21 <creftos> how could I forget autocomplete!?
3539 2013-04-10 22:54:33 sgornick has joined
3540 2013-04-10 22:54:37 <creftos> Also the hotkeys are pretty epic
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3543 2013-04-10 22:55:00 i2pRelay has joined
3544 2013-04-10 22:55:19 <creftos> instead of having to figure out where a class is I can just Ctrl-shift-T (in java anyway) and type the class name
3545 2013-04-10 22:55:43 malaimo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3546 2013-04-10 22:55:48 <creftos> cuts down a lot of wasted time looking around etc
3547 2013-04-10 22:55:54 <CodeShark> yeah, there's a lot to be said for using a sophisticated editor
3548 2013-04-10 22:56:24 n1bor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3549 2013-04-10 22:56:28 <CodeShark> but I'm still more a fan of lots of small tools, each optimized for a specific task than a fan of one tool that supposidely does everything
3550 2013-04-10 22:56:44 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
3551 2013-04-10 22:57:17 * lianj uses vim with ctags
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3561 2013-04-10 23:03:02 Cho has joined
3562 2013-04-10 23:03:14 <Cho> hello
3563 2013-04-10 23:03:23 creftos has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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3566 2013-04-10 23:04:01 <Cho> How to load my wallet from block chain
3567 2013-04-10 23:04:03 a_meteorite has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3568 2013-04-10 23:04:13 <Cho> to multibit
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3603 2013-04-10 23:22:42 frazum is now known as bitpurple
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3611 2013-04-10 23:29:59 <saivann> I'd like to request ACK for spanish translation : https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/129
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3614 2013-04-10 23:30:31 * sipa doesn't know spanish
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3616 2013-04-10 23:31:17 <saivann> sipa : So far, I asked at least two native speaker for each language to review, to make sure that each translation are accurate
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3621 2013-04-10 23:35:09 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I guess I'm no one?
3622 2013-04-10 23:35:36 <sipa> did i miss something
3623 2013-04-10 23:35:41 nomailin1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3624 2013-04-10 23:35:43 <BlueMatt> sipa: Im pretty sure I did too
3625 2013-04-10 23:36:19 FredEE has joined
3626 2013-04-10 23:36:44 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: made a "no one here" comment in a random channel before leaving, but I was there!
3627 2013-04-10 23:37:14 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ahh, well others had left so it was largely useless channel with just one person
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3632 2013-04-10 23:39:22 bitpurple is now known as pitboing
3633 2013-04-10 23:39:54 GlitchNZ has joined
3634 2013-04-10 23:40:48 <GlitchNZ> Getting the following message when calling getrawtransaction: error: {"code":-5,"message":"No information available about transaction"}
3635 2013-04-10 23:41:14 <GlitchNZ> Works fine for all other transactions, just this specific one causing the error: 80583571bf2272ad4a5092c6c8312bbe3f074b2e73e13b5289ac24245c314f4f
3636 2013-04-10 23:41:14 <GlitchNZ> On Testnet
3637 2013-04-10 23:41:32 da2ce7 has joined
3638 2013-04-10 23:41:37 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: do you have txindex=1?
3639 2013-04-10 23:41:54 <sipa> GlitchNZ: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/9147/getrawtransaction-error-code-5/9152#9152
3640 2013-04-10 23:42:09 jtimon has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
3641 2013-04-10 23:42:21 <GlitchNZ> ok, thats probably it
3642 2013-04-10 23:42:24 <GlitchNZ> thanks
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