1 2013-04-11 00:00:09 i2pRelay has joined
2 2013-04-11 00:00:47 <rdponticelli> saivann: Re: Spanish translation <- I'll take a look latter/tomorrow
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10 2013-04-11 00:01:20 <saivann> rdponticelli : Great, thanks
11 2013-04-11 00:01:26 <TheSeven> looks like we have a massive influx of new bitcoin and ppcoin nodes tonight again
12 2013-04-11 00:01:33 Konnichiwa has joined
13 2013-04-11 00:02:01 <MC1984> how can you tell
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18 2013-04-11 00:02:09 <TheSeven> i typically have 8 connections on ppcoind/bitcoind each
19 2013-04-11 00:02:20 <TheSeven> now I'm at 75 for bitcoind, 34 for ppcoind
20 2013-04-11 00:02:26 pgvoorhees has joined
21 2013-04-11 00:02:29 <TheSeven> and constantly uploading blockchain data at my maximum upstream bandwidth
22 2013-04-11 00:02:37 dvide has quit ()
23 2013-04-11 00:02:39 <TheSeven> which is 10mbit/s over here
24 2013-04-11 00:02:39 <MC1984> great
25 2013-04-11 00:02:41 Arbition has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
26 2013-04-11 00:03:01 Arbition has joined
27 2013-04-11 00:03:08 <TheSeven> I observed a similar spike maybe 2 weeks ago
28 2013-04-11 00:03:47 <MC1984> 8 connections is the outbound limit though
29 2013-04-11 00:03:55 <MC1984> maybe you just have an open port now somehow
30 2013-04-11 00:04:42 <sipa> TheSeven: you may just have been detected by one of the seeds as a good peer :)
31 2013-04-11 00:05:02 <TheSeven> my IP changes every 24h, so that typically wouldn't happen
32 2013-04-11 00:05:25 <MC1984> sipa does that just take uptime?
33 2013-04-11 00:05:39 gdoteof has joined
34 2013-04-11 00:05:43 <sipa> no idea how all the seeds work
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36 2013-04-11 00:05:46 <TheSeven> btw, does bitcoind set type of service flags on outgoing packets?
37 2013-04-11 00:05:57 <sipa> TheSeven: QoS you mean? no
38 2013-04-11 00:06:12 <gdoteof> my buddy had a wallet with like 25 coins on it from 2011; he never backed it up
39 2013-04-11 00:06:15 <gdoteof> and the HD failed
40 2013-04-11 00:06:19 <TheSeven> slightly more than half of the traffic was detected as "low priority background traffic" by my NAT router
41 2013-04-11 00:06:27 <TheSeven> without having a rule for the ports involved
42 2013-04-11 00:06:30 <gdoteof> he still has the hard drive
43 2013-04-11 00:06:54 <MC1984> gdoteof take it to a data recovery specialist
44 2013-04-11 00:06:56 <gdoteof> any recommendations for software that might be able to do something useful? he is on windows but could be convinced to boot into linux probably
45 2013-04-11 00:07:12 <TheSeven> gdoteof: all depends on how that drive failed
46 2013-04-11 00:07:14 <gdoteof> MC1984: that is step#2 i believe there is software available that allows people to attempt it
47 2013-04-11 00:07:26 <gdoteof> TheSeven: i realize that.
48 2013-04-11 00:07:37 <TheSeven> is this purely software corruption, bad sectors, or not even detectable at all?
49 2013-04-11 00:07:42 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
50 2013-04-11 00:07:44 <MC1984> running it after its failed makes it worse
51 2013-04-11 00:07:48 <MC1984> assuming hardware faild
52 2013-04-11 00:07:58 <gdoteof> to be honest, idk. i think it was software corruption
53 2013-04-11 00:08:03 <gdoteof> there was not a catasrophic event
54 2013-04-11 00:08:10 <gdoteof> it stopped booting
55 2013-04-11 00:08:15 * TheSeven doesn't consider that a failed hdd then
56 2013-04-11 00:08:27 <MC1984> just slave it and look?
57 2013-04-11 00:08:35 Ashaman has joined
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59 2013-04-11 00:08:54 <gdoteof> yeah, sorry i don't have complete information. i also don't use windows.. and am just looking for wisdom that i can pass on to my buddy
60 2013-04-11 00:09:08 <TheSeven> if you're somewhat confident that the drive is OK, and don't want to go the (rather expensive) route of letting a specialist do it, try booting from a linux live cd and checking if the drive is mountable and you can just copy the wallet file from it. if not, proceed with that scanner tool (somewhere on the forums)
61 2013-04-11 00:09:51 <MC1984> i think pywallet can scan a drive for privkeys?
62 2013-04-11 00:10:05 <MC1984> or i it wallet header
63 2013-04-11 00:10:36 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
64 2013-04-11 00:10:44 <TheSeven> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=25091.0
65 2013-04-11 00:11:04 o8gf5 has joined
66 2013-04-11 00:11:09 <TheSeven> if it's from 2011 I think we can assume that it is not encrypted
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68 2013-04-11 00:11:31 <warren> gdoteof: before mounting the drive on anything, dd an image of the entire drive and attempt recovery from that first
69 2013-04-11 00:11:42 <sipa> first version with encryption is from sept 2011
70 2013-04-11 00:12:04 <TheSeven> or at least mount it read only
71 2013-04-11 00:12:13 <saivann> gdoteof : In case that the drive isn't mountable, testdisk ( preferably on linux, but also on Windows ) can allow to recover things from almost totally failed hard drives.
72 2013-04-11 00:12:19 <TheSeven> if it's just a corrupted windows install, one could quickly have a look that way
73 2013-04-11 00:12:26 <warren> also look at ddrescue and dd_rescue
74 2013-04-11 00:12:38 <TheSeven> ddrescue only helps with hardware failure though
75 2013-04-11 00:12:39 <MC1984> anyone tried spinrite?
76 2013-04-11 00:12:43 shnitstoing is now known as bitYhafo0
77 2013-04-11 00:12:44 <MC1984> heard it was miraculous
78 2013-04-11 00:12:44 <TheSeven> testdisk mostly with broken partition tables
79 2013-04-11 00:12:51 <DiabloD3> gmaxwell: https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2013-April/003557.html
80 2013-04-11 00:12:52 <TheSeven> the forum link above helps with fried file systems
81 2013-04-11 00:12:58 <DiabloD3> gmaxwell: well that sorta kills rust for me
82 2013-04-11 00:13:02 <warren> nah, ddrescue can copy the raw drive with or without hardware errors.
83 2013-04-11 00:13:30 graingert has joined
84 2013-04-11 00:13:38 <saivann> Exactly, ddrescue is long and does not allow to target one single file when each seconds count.
85 2013-04-11 00:14:09 <gdoteof> saivann: okay. he is going to make a bootable usb stick
86 2013-04-11 00:14:25 <gdoteof> warren: thanks for that advice
87 2013-04-11 00:14:32 <gdoteof> so we will doit from linux
88 2013-04-11 00:14:44 <gdoteof> ty
89 2013-04-11 00:15:05 <MC1984> if it starts clicking take it offline
90 2013-04-11 00:15:24 <MC1984> and take it to professionals
91 2013-04-11 00:15:47 digitalmagus has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
92 2013-04-11 00:16:04 <gmaxwell> DiabloD3: what language do you use that has variant dispatch tall call optimization?
93 2013-04-11 00:16:07 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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96 2013-04-11 00:16:31 <warren> gdoteof: plug in another drive bigger than it, and copy the entire raw drive image onto a file
97 2013-04-11 00:16:49 <warren> gdoteof: safer to examine a raw image
98 2013-04-11 00:17:00 i2pRelay has joined
99 2013-04-11 00:17:43 <gdoteof> warren: makes sense. hopefully he will have the space. i think he wont though
100 2013-04-11 00:18:04 debiantoruser has joined
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118 2013-04-11 00:26:29 <DiabloD3> gmaxwell: I coded a hello world in lisp once.
119 2013-04-11 00:27:02 <DiabloD3> gmaxwell: basically, what I did was pour a bunch of parentheses into a food blender
120 2013-04-11 00:27:10 Descry has joined
121 2013-04-11 00:27:23 <sipa> http://xkcd.com/297/
122 2013-04-11 00:27:29 james4k has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8)
123 2013-04-11 00:27:35 james4k_ has joined
124 2013-04-11 00:27:56 <DiabloD3> bad sipa, no linking to xkcd
125 2013-04-11 00:28:00 tlrobinson has quit (Quit: tlrobinson)
126 2013-04-11 00:28:01 GlitchNZ has joined
127 2013-04-11 00:28:05 * sipa always links to xkcd
128 2013-04-11 00:28:16 <DiabloD3> xkcd has never been funny
129 2013-04-11 00:28:25 <GlitchNZ> Anyone interested in trying out a new 0-confirmation gambling app on Testnet?
130 2013-04-11 00:28:38 <DiabloD3> I mean, I have to give the guy credit, out of 1000 comics, you'd think he'd be funny once, by accident or something
131 2013-04-11 00:28:46 james4k_ is now known as james4k
132 2013-04-11 00:29:05 <sipa> DiabloD3: ok, you don't like, i'll remember!
133 2013-04-11 00:29:05 <GlitchNZ> Would be nice to have some random transactions for testing
134 2013-04-11 00:29:22 bitYhafo0 is now known as sheeeet3
135 2013-04-11 00:29:32 <DiabloD3> sipa: I dont dislike it either
136 2013-04-11 00:29:35 <DiabloD3> sipa: its mediocre.
137 2013-04-11 00:30:36 macboz has joined
138 2013-04-11 00:30:53 <DiabloD3> gmaxwell: Im not sure why they cant variant dispatch tail call optimize anyhow, at least SOME cases should able to be handled
139 2013-04-11 00:31:06 Impaler has joined
140 2013-04-11 00:31:07 james4k has quit (Client Quit)
141 2013-04-11 00:31:23 james4k has joined
142 2013-04-11 00:31:38 <GlitchNZ> hmm, the enthusiasm is overwhelming :)
143 2013-04-11 00:31:53 <GlitchNZ> I suppose everone is sick of gaming sites
144 2013-04-11 00:32:38 <sipa> GlitchNZ: quite so :)
145 2013-04-11 00:32:38 <MC1984> its been done before
146 2013-04-11 00:32:43 <Belxjander> DiabloD3: its a particular style of humour based on the subject matter... there are a few that can be funny... but lack of context kills most of it
147 2013-04-11 00:32:56 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
148 2013-04-11 00:32:59 <GlitchNZ> well, mine is different, but not a lot different
149 2013-04-11 00:33:18 <MC1984> you mean peopleactually make money on yours?
150 2013-04-11 00:33:25 <GlitchNZ> rofl
151 2013-04-11 00:33:29 <GlitchNZ> Im sure some would
152 2013-04-11 00:33:36 tlrobinson has joined
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156 2013-04-11 00:34:15 <MC1984> i read that thread where the dude gae his rent money to SD
157 2013-04-11 00:34:24 <MC1984> assuming he wasnt bulshitting, it was just sad
158 2013-04-11 00:34:31 digitalmagus has joined
159 2013-04-11 00:35:07 <MC1984> its always the way with disruptive new techs though, vices first
160 2013-04-11 00:35:27 <DiabloD3> MC1984: its called Satan.
161 2013-04-11 00:35:38 <DiabloD3> Satan makes you do crazy insane nonsensical things
162 2013-04-11 00:35:50 <MC1984> doing your best luke impression there
163 2013-04-11 00:35:57 <Scrat> lol
164 2013-04-11 00:36:04 <owowo> lol,.. No it was G0D
165 2013-04-11 00:36:22 <DiabloD3> MC1984: actually, this is why I make fun of luke, he has yet to become a Christian, yet he spouts all sorts of shit
166 2013-04-11 00:36:41 Cryo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
167 2013-04-11 00:36:41 <MC1984> its his right
168 2013-04-11 00:36:48 <DiabloD3> well, no, not really.
169 2013-04-11 00:37:03 <DiabloD3> if he wants his rights back, he can switch religions.
170 2013-04-11 00:37:21 skinnkavaj has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
171 2013-04-11 00:37:22 <owowo> to stanism?
172 2013-04-11 00:37:28 <MC1984> im a simulist
173 2013-04-11 00:37:30 <MC1984> what of me?
174 2013-04-11 00:37:33 <DiabloD3> stanism.
175 2013-04-11 00:37:38 <DiabloD3> -_-`
176 2013-04-11 00:37:38 <owowo> do they not come in one package?
177 2013-04-11 00:37:42 <gdoteof> i think whoever pulled off that ddos is the same that put the "you are here" post on reddit
178 2013-04-11 00:37:44 <DiabloD3> STAN, THE GREAT NEMESIS
179 2013-04-11 00:38:22 XRPTrader2 has quit (Quit: XRPTrader2)
180 2013-04-11 00:38:22 <owowo> was it a ddos and pll panicked,.. Again!
181 2013-04-11 00:38:30 Cryo has joined
182 2013-04-11 00:38:32 <DiabloD3> people panic too fucking much =/
183 2013-04-11 00:38:44 <DiabloD3> I mean, we're going to hit $34k
184 2013-04-11 00:38:45 <MC1984> and i get shouted at for being trolly mcofftopicton....
185 2013-04-11 00:38:47 <DiabloD3> so who the fuck cares.
186 2013-04-11 00:38:47 <gdoteof> lol. no they panic perfectly
187 2013-04-11 00:38:52 Hawkwood has joined
188 2013-04-11 00:38:56 <owowo> do ppl not learn, that they are being braindossed by that DDOS
189 2013-04-11 00:39:08 <DiabloD3> braindossed.
190 2013-04-11 00:39:12 <DiabloD3> -_-`
191 2013-04-11 00:39:22 <DiabloD3> MC1984: seriously though
192 2013-04-11 00:39:25 <DiabloD3> Greed exists.
193 2013-04-11 00:39:46 <DiabloD3> Even the Atheists recognize that flaw in the human psyche
194 2013-04-11 00:40:38 <DiabloD3> like, the dragons that hoard riches from various fantasy stories? 1%ers.
195 2013-04-11 00:40:43 <MWNinja> I've been thinking pretty hard about the point of sale/brick and mortar confirmation time problem. I believe the solution lies in securely transferring wallets and generating new wallets for change. Any obvious flaws in this approach?
196 2013-04-11 00:41:01 <owowo> Greed is eternal. Rule no. 10 Ferengi Rules of aquisition
197 2013-04-11 00:41:14 <DiabloD3> MWNinja: doesnt work.
198 2013-04-11 00:41:22 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
199 2013-04-11 00:41:24 <diki> Anybody know how many public keys total are in the chain as of say now?
200 2013-04-11 00:41:24 <DiabloD3> MWNinja: I can still double spend against that
201 2013-04-11 00:41:37 <MC1984> 11m i read
202 2013-04-11 00:41:46 <DiabloD3> MWNinja: basically, it'd be a race of who gets accepted, store's immediate move tx, or my immediate move tx
203 2013-04-11 00:41:50 wallet43 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
204 2013-04-11 00:41:53 <diki> MC1984:that for me?
205 2013-04-11 00:42:02 <DiabloD3> MWNinja: since we both have the private key
206 2013-04-11 00:42:12 <MC1984> MWNinja how does that even work
207 2013-04-11 00:42:14 i2pRelay has joined
208 2013-04-11 00:42:28 Descry has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
209 2013-04-11 00:42:31 <DiabloD3> MWNinja: what WOULD work is being able to encode a tx into a qrcode
210 2013-04-11 00:42:49 <DiabloD3> or transmit it over near field
211 2013-04-11 00:43:08 <DiabloD3> the store's transaction network would then try to force it into a block
212 2013-04-11 00:43:11 andyh2 has joined
213 2013-04-11 00:43:12 <GlitchNZ> so, no volunteers for testnet gamble :/
214 2013-04-11 00:43:52 <DiabloD3> MWNinja: it'd be much harder to out run a widely spread tx
215 2013-04-11 00:43:56 robocoin has quit (Quit: (â¯Â°â¡Â°ï¼â¯ï¸µ â»ââ»)
216 2013-04-11 00:44:00 <GlitchNZ> on another note - is the a version of the client that does not enforce transaction fees? or do I have to edit and compile myself for that?
217 2013-04-11 00:44:15 TradeFortress has joined
218 2013-04-11 00:44:19 <MWNinja> the merchant processor would take the wallet and put in the transaction, not sure how you would be able to time your attack
219 2013-04-11 00:44:37 <diki> GlitchNZ:hmm?
220 2013-04-11 00:44:38 <sipa> GlitchNZ: it doesn't except for transactions it would not relay itself
221 2013-04-11 00:44:40 darksk1ez has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
222 2013-04-11 00:44:45 <DiabloD3> MWNinja: doesnt work, I still have the private key
223 2013-04-11 00:44:55 <diki> GlitchNZ:Need help with something?
224 2013-04-11 00:44:56 <DiabloD3> which means I can, about half the time, outrun their tx
225 2013-04-11 00:45:15 <DiabloD3> it'd be easier to just give them a tx that I already broadcast that they can also broadcast
226 2013-04-11 00:45:39 <GlitchNZ> diki: I know it is possible to put transactions on the network that do not have the required fee - of course such a transaction may take a long time to be picked up, but the client blocks you frm trying that
227 2013-04-11 00:45:50 <mouseofthesteppe> Heya, does anyone know where the sha1 sha256, md5sums of the bitcoin-qt exes are? Not of the packages that hold them like the tarballs which can all be seen in the changelogs in launchpad
228 2013-04-11 00:45:51 <DiabloD3> MWNinja: basically, you're solving the wrong problem
229 2013-04-11 00:45:52 <MWNinja> but in my solution you don't have the private key, its under the scratch layer on the card
230 2013-04-11 00:46:01 <DiabloD3> what card?
231 2013-04-11 00:46:02 <sipa> GlitchNZ: it's quite likely to be never picked up at all
232 2013-04-11 00:46:09 <sipa> GlitchNZ: as you peers will simply drop it
233 2013-04-11 00:46:10 <DiabloD3> bitcoin is non-physical.
234 2013-04-11 00:46:18 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
235 2013-04-11 00:46:25 <DiabloD3> sipa: I dunno man, asicminer keeps doing that
236 2013-04-11 00:46:31 <diki> With the recent version, how many txes can be in a block?
237 2013-04-11 00:46:31 <DiabloD3> I wish friedcat would just pay the fee
238 2013-04-11 00:46:37 <MWNinja> gift card with a load barcode and private key under the scratch off area
239 2013-04-11 00:46:42 <DiabloD3> diki: over 9000
240 2013-04-11 00:46:43 <GlitchNZ> sipa: not my problem - someone sends me a stupid amount of BTC, I just want to bounce it back - if it doesn't get picked up because its too small I don't care
241 2013-04-11 00:46:46 <mouseofthesteppe> Aren't they listed anywhere? Do we just go by the package sums?
242 2013-04-11 00:46:47 <sipa> mouseofthesteppe: same place as the binaries itself
243 2013-04-11 00:46:51 <MWNinja> sold by the merchant and loaded with the device we are building
244 2013-04-11 00:46:53 wallet42 has joined
245 2013-04-11 00:47:04 <mouseofthesteppe> sipa: launchpad?
246 2013-04-11 00:47:06 <MWNinja> can be redeemed at any merchant that accepts bitcoins
247 2013-04-11 00:47:07 <diki> DiabloD3:So why don't just pools accept some fee-less txes?
248 2013-04-11 00:47:08 RoboTeddy has joined
249 2013-04-11 00:47:10 <sipa> mouseofthesteppe: no, sourceforge
250 2013-04-11 00:47:13 <Scrat> GlitchNZ: dont ever mention bouncing back to sipa
251 2013-04-11 00:47:16 <Scrat> :)
252 2013-04-11 00:47:21 <DiabloD3> MWNinja: all you're doing is creating a variant of Caucasus coins
253 2013-04-11 00:47:25 <GlitchNZ> oh? does sipa not like bouncing?
254 2013-04-11 00:47:39 <DiabloD3> MWNinja: I dont want to carry cards or bills or papers or coins with me
255 2013-04-11 00:47:43 <mouseofthesteppe> scrat: i love your role in ice age
256 2013-04-11 00:47:47 <DiabloD3> the whole point of bitcoin is to be modern
257 2013-04-11 00:48:03 <DiabloD3> diki: pools dont accept fee less txes because it wastes cpu time for no gain
258 2013-04-11 00:48:03 <sipa> GlitchNZ: i hope it was clear already that i'm quite opposed to anything that tries to infer a from address from a transaction to do a refund
259 2013-04-11 00:48:23 <diki> DiabloD3:No gain? And they expect bitcoin to grow this way?
260 2013-04-11 00:48:31 XRPTrader2 has joined
261 2013-04-11 00:48:32 <diki> I knew people were greedy, but this much...
262 2013-04-11 00:48:35 <MWNinja> we are trying to make it accessible to a larger population by putting it in forms that are commonly used
263 2013-04-11 00:48:38 <DiabloD3> diki: many large pools are running out of cpu time due to the load
264 2013-04-11 00:48:44 <DiabloD3> diki: so they have no choice
265 2013-04-11 00:48:56 <MC1984> that cant be true?
266 2013-04-11 00:49:05 <GlitchNZ> sipa: you have stated your case, and I have ignored it - satoshi dice is one of the most successful bitcoin sites because it does exactly this .
267 2013-04-11 00:49:11 <DiabloD3> MWNinja: then you want an actual merchant transaction processor that runs on top of bitcoin
268 2013-04-11 00:49:16 <MC1984> im running a bitcoind on this old thing
269 2013-04-11 00:49:19 <diki> DiabloD3:I believe that with some hand tuned assembly, some processes can be optimized to be faster.
270 2013-04-11 00:49:38 <DiabloD3> diki: okay? then go submit your patches to bitcoin.
271 2013-04-11 00:49:42 <MWNinja> that transaction processor would ruin bitcoin
272 2013-04-11 00:49:44 <sipa> GlitchNZ: so please understand that i'm not inclined to help anyone who wants to imitate them
273 2013-04-11 00:49:47 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
274 2013-04-11 00:49:50 pgvoorhees has quit (Quit: Leaving)
275 2013-04-11 00:50:01 <DiabloD3> MWNinja: not really, bitcoin is meant to replace a country's treasury and the ACH system
276 2013-04-11 00:50:04 <MWNinja> we have to solve it without having a central processor that reports right to the government
277 2013-04-11 00:50:11 <DiabloD3> MWNinja: its not meant to replace the credit/debit card network
278 2013-04-11 00:50:25 <DiabloD3> MWNinja: erm, screw you, bitcoin does not exist to violate existing laws
279 2013-04-11 00:50:31 <DiabloD3> MWNinja: you must comply with the law.
280 2013-04-11 00:50:40 <GlitchNZ> sipa: what is exactly your problem with it - if people know what they are getting into, thats their choice isn't it?
281 2013-04-11 00:50:41 i2pRelay has joined
282 2013-04-11 00:50:47 hateeecs has joined
283 2013-04-11 00:50:55 <mouseofthesteppe> sipa: do you mean http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.1/?
284 2013-04-11 00:50:59 <MWNinja> I'm not breaking any laws, I just want to keep merchant processing in the spirit of bitcoin
285 2013-04-11 00:51:16 <mouseofthesteppe> sipa: it only has the sums of the packaged files, not of the final exes
286 2013-04-11 00:51:18 <DiabloD3> MWNinja: then invent a new system that runs on top of bitcoin.
287 2013-04-11 00:51:25 Casimir1904 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
288 2013-04-11 00:51:25 <DiabloD3> MWNinja: bitcoin was not meant to do what you want.
289 2013-04-11 00:51:54 <sipa> GlitchNZ: they encourage massive address reuse (which is bad for the privacy of everyone in the system), they do 10x as many transactions as they need to, they're opposed to even switching to compressed public keys which would decrease their load on the system by 32 bytes per transaction
290 2013-04-11 00:52:05 <mouseofthesteppe> Maybe I'm just getting overly paranoid and we're ok just looking up the tarballs
291 2013-04-11 00:52:53 <sipa> GlitchNZ: and they encourage using a restricted version of the protocol (by assuming you can send coins back), reducing potential flexibility to change things later
292 2013-04-11 00:54:20 Wayward- has joined
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297 2013-04-11 00:56:06 <MWNinja> Its easy to do with a closed source system, there's off the shelf solutions already. But then we are tied to feeding the same banking infrastructure that exists today. And I disagreeâ¦bitcoin can most certainly be used in brick and mortar retail and was designed to do nearly anything
298 2013-04-11 00:56:08 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
299 2013-04-11 00:56:49 <GlitchNZ> Well, I think the fact that the protocol doesn't facilitate a 'from' address is actually an oversight, I don't see why people shouldn't be able to reuse addresses if they want to. Of course people are working on a payment protocol to solve these kinds of problems, but until its complete what choice do we have? Being able to return someones money to them seems to me like a pretty basic
300 2013-04-11 00:56:50 <GlitchNZ> feature of an electronic monetary system.
301 2013-04-11 00:56:51 Wayward has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
302 2013-04-11 00:57:06 <GlitchNZ> As for satoshi dice not using compressed keys, etc - that has nothing to do with me
303 2013-04-11 00:57:13 <sipa> agree, that is separate
304 2013-04-11 00:57:27 <sipa> and agree that having a from 'address' is a basic request
305 2013-04-11 00:57:33 <GlitchNZ> One could argue - that all of these transactions is good for the system - lots of juicy transaction fees to encourage the miners
306 2013-04-11 00:57:52 <MC1984> they dont care about fees
307 2013-04-11 00:58:06 <MWNinja> its good for 20 or so people, the big pool operators that keep the fees
308 2013-04-11 00:58:11 <sipa> imho they reduce the decentralization of the system by making it harder to run fully verifying nodes
309 2013-04-11 00:58:17 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
310 2013-04-11 00:58:22 <GlitchNZ> MC: not yet - but when the reward drops down enough, the transaction fees will become the primary incentive
311 2013-04-11 00:58:24 <sipa> without corresponding economic growth
312 2013-04-11 00:58:58 <sipa> note that i'm not opposed to growth in the number of transactions - at some point bitcoin needs to deal with that
313 2013-04-11 00:59:11 i2pRelay has joined
314 2013-04-11 00:59:13 <sipa> but a sudden and unnecessary growth has pushed many people to centralized wallets
315 2013-04-11 00:59:45 <GlitchNZ> is that a problem with the developer of a site, or an issue for bitcoin in general?
316 2013-04-11 00:59:46 EretzIsrael has joined
317 2013-04-11 01:00:24 Wayward- is now known as Wayward
318 2013-04-11 01:00:28 <sipa> they could choose a businessmodel that doesn't weigh on the future that much
319 2013-04-11 01:00:33 <GlitchNZ> Is BTC going to be an everyday currency used for e-commerce, or will it be in the balliwack of a few central transaction processors, offering their own intermediate currency for the massees
320 2013-04-11 01:01:00 <sipa> well, imho, it's just impossible to have every single tiny transaction in the blockchain
321 2013-04-11 01:01:03 <MC1984> thats why dice is intrasigent about optimising their setup
322 2013-04-11 01:01:10 <MC1984> baptism of fire and all that
323 2013-04-11 01:01:26 <sipa> or we end up with a system with just 5 fully validating nodes - a hugely centralized system that will be slower and more expensive than paypal without any benefit over it
324 2013-04-11 01:01:47 <sipa> the advantage of bitcoin is the fact that everyone can validate it
325 2013-04-11 01:01:47 hateeecs has left ()
326 2013-04-11 01:01:49 <MC1984> the only time they took their foot off the pedal was with the fork
327 2013-04-11 01:02:02 <sipa> so people do not have to trust a centralized instance or small group
328 2013-04-11 01:02:25 Scrat has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
329 2013-04-11 01:02:32 <MWNinja> we are planning on making our point of sale system a full node for what its worth
330 2013-04-11 01:02:42 sheeeet3 is now known as ffapm
331 2013-04-11 01:02:42 <sipa> i would hope so!
332 2013-04-11 01:02:48 <MC1984> great
333 2013-04-11 01:02:58 <GlitchNZ> Well, a choice has to be made - either BTC is the holy grail of decentralised currency for everyone - or its a tool to be used my large institutions for moving large sums around the globe, if you want the former then supporting large quantaties of transactions is a requirement, if you want the latter then you can't preach it as being a fully decentralized currency
334 2013-04-11 01:03:22 creftos has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
335 2013-04-11 01:03:40 <MC1984> were all still finding out which way it will go man
336 2013-04-11 01:03:41 <sipa> GlitchNZ: we already have a currency that everyone can use to make transactions
337 2013-04-11 01:03:45 <sipa> GlitchNZ: it's called the dollar
338 2013-04-11 01:03:51 <sipa> it has all properties you seem to want
339 2013-04-11 01:04:01 andyh2 has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
340 2013-04-11 01:04:04 <sipa> what it doesn't have is verifiability
341 2013-04-11 01:04:12 andyh2 has joined
342 2013-04-11 01:04:13 <sipa> it's controlled by a small group of people
343 2013-04-11 01:04:20 <sipa> but you don't seem to care about that :)
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354 2013-04-11 01:04:48 <sipa> GlitchNZ: of course things are not black and white
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358 2013-04-11 01:05:18 <GlitchNZ> I want a currency that can allow anyone to instantly transfer funds to anyone without a bank or a government saying 'you can't do that'
359 2013-04-11 01:05:27 <sipa> yes, the dollar has that
360 2013-04-11 01:05:36 systemParanoid has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
361 2013-04-11 01:05:36 <GlitchNZ> I want to take the power away from the centralised system that is screwing everyone else over
362 2013-04-11 01:05:53 <MWNinja> or government arbitrarily seizing it
363 2013-04-11 01:05:58 <sipa> there are two sides in the decentralization: who is able to do transactions
364 2013-04-11 01:06:05 <sipa> and who is able to verify that nobody cheats
365 2013-04-11 01:06:09 has quit (_STIMPY_|!~doddy@90.200.43.57|Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Wibbly Wobbly IRC)
366 2013-04-11 01:06:12 <sipa> ideally, both of course
367 2013-04-11 01:06:20 <GlitchNZ> Everytime a government prints a buck, it is stealing money from it's citizens
368 2013-04-11 01:06:25 <MWNinja> they need to work for seizing it by cracking our keys
369 2013-04-11 01:06:33 <sipa> sure, but it can't prevent you from using it to do transactions
370 2013-04-11 01:06:34 <MC1984> if its not both, bitcoin fails it aims
371 2013-04-11 01:06:36 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
372 2013-04-11 01:06:40 <sipa> it has no verifiability for cheating
373 2013-04-11 01:07:04 <sipa> i'm just saying that the interesting part of bitcoin is the verifiability
374 2013-04-11 01:07:07 <GlitchNZ> Everytime another financial institution is bailed out, tax payers foot the bill for ludicrous bonuses that go to the fatcats, the same fatcats that crewed the system over
375 2013-04-11 01:07:16 <sipa> the fact that you don't need to trust others
376 2013-04-11 01:07:28 i2pRelay has joined
377 2013-04-11 01:07:37 Elmf has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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379 2013-04-11 01:08:25 <GlitchNZ> sipa - yes, including governments and banks and your next door neighbour. Bitcoin is a solution to pretty much everything that is wrong with the current banking system
380 2013-04-11 01:08:37 digitalmagus has quit ()
381 2013-04-11 01:08:49 <sipa> sure, and i love it for that
382 2013-04-11 01:08:53 <sipa> but it comes at a price
383 2013-04-11 01:09:06 <MWNinja> The dollar has massive artificially suppressed inflation. I would expect once more savvy investors take control of the markets that bitcoin trends with energy prices.
384 2013-04-11 01:10:12 <Uisgdlyast> what's the cheapest way to fund MtGox? I signed up for Aryum or whatever but charging 3% i might as well buy from someone here
385 2013-04-11 01:10:19 <MC1984> GlitchNZ i think we hope technology progress will keep up with whatever horrors anyone inflicts on the chain
386 2013-04-11 01:10:21 <X-Scale> I like the politically correct way they use to express printing money as if there is now tomorrow: "Quantitative Easing"
387 2013-04-11 01:10:29 <sipa> GlitchNZ: what i tried to say earlier: of course bitcoin needs to grow (and perhaps in ways we don't know yet), to scale to a point where something like the current SD is nothing
388 2013-04-11 01:10:31 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
389 2013-04-11 01:10:33 <GlitchNZ> The way I see it, is bitcoin can adjust to the new demand, people can seize the opportunity to strengthen the infrastructure across the network, both nodes and exhanges, or someone will come up with something better and bitcoin will fade away into nothing
390 2013-04-11 01:10:43 <sipa> GlitchNZ: but scaling goes together with economic growth
391 2013-04-11 01:10:43 <MC1984> right now im still running a FVN on 6 year old hardware
392 2013-04-11 01:10:55 <sipa> economic growth provides incentives for development and research
393 2013-04-11 01:11:03 <MWNinja> The printed money isn't going to the masses so the laws of supply/demand for the dollar keeps inflation in check.
394 2013-04-11 01:11:05 <sipa> and for supporting the system
395 2013-04-11 01:11:07 copumpkin has joined
396 2013-04-11 01:11:10 <sipa> and making it more efficient
397 2013-04-11 01:11:19 <MWNinja> But its propping up wall street and the bankers.
398 2013-04-11 01:11:51 <GlitchNZ> I understand the econmics of it all, and right now I see a $2Billion dollar incentive for someone to make something better than bitcoin
399 2013-04-11 01:12:08 <GlitchNZ> The question is, can Bitcoin keep ahead of any competition
400 2013-04-11 01:12:15 <sipa> maybe, maybe not
401 2013-04-11 01:12:22 <sipa> but in any case, we'll learn a lot
402 2013-04-11 01:12:36 <MC1984> paypal is pretty serious bitcoin competition
403 2013-04-11 01:12:44 <sipa> imho, it's not
404 2013-04-11 01:12:57 <MC1984> to the average joe bitcoin is just paypal but lots harder to use
405 2013-04-11 01:12:59 <sipa> paypal is a payment processor
406 2013-04-11 01:13:12 <sipa> bitcoin is a currency with very weak payment processing capabilities built-in
407 2013-04-11 01:13:12 <GlitchNZ> Well, people like myself and other developers will keep pushing the bondaries, and I say that it is those that push bitcoin to its limit that force further research and development from those trying to protect their investment
408 2013-04-11 01:13:20 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
409 2013-04-11 01:13:42 <MWNinja> I gave paypal 12k last year, theres huge economic incentive for merchants to have a better solution.
410 2013-04-11 01:14:12 <MWNinja> But consumers need easy access to bitcoin, and a stable value
411 2013-04-11 01:14:59 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
412 2013-04-11 01:15:16 CaptainBlaze has joined
413 2013-04-11 01:15:49 <GlitchNZ> Anyway, anyone who is interested can try my new software out by sendning 0.01BTC to mphXneVUcbQ9XScHSnT1QDMB6y5jsGb8UL (Testnet). For now its like satoshi dice, you'll either ger 0.00005 or 0.02 back - and it should be pretty much instant.
414 2013-04-11 01:15:54 i2pRelay has joined
415 2013-04-11 01:16:01 wallet421 has joined
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417 2013-04-11 01:17:28 <Uisgdlyast> odds?
418 2013-04-11 01:17:55 <wallet421> easy and secure(!) access
419 2013-04-11 01:18:07 <wallet421> also for my grand parents
420 2013-04-11 01:18:11 meLon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
421 2013-04-11 01:18:14 <Uisgdlyast> i'll set something up, you can sen 10btc and either get 5 or 100 back
422 2013-04-11 01:18:16 wallet42 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
423 2013-04-11 01:18:18 <wallet421> and their grad parents
424 2013-04-11 01:18:20 <GlitchNZ> its almost 50/50, expect 98.5% return in the long run
425 2013-04-11 01:18:36 grau has joined
426 2013-04-11 01:18:46 Bohren has joined
427 2013-04-11 01:19:02 <GlitchNZ> Visgdlyast - this is just a test run of a much larger application
428 2013-04-11 01:19:39 <Uisgdlyast> why does everyone think its a V? and actually take the time to spell it out? it makes no sense with a V
429 2013-04-11 01:20:05 <GlitchNZ> lol, sorry looks like a V on my client - also, it doesn't make any better sence to me with a U
430 2013-04-11 01:20:39 <Uisgdlyast> well you must now be in the "in crowd" then
431 2013-04-11 01:21:02 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
432 2013-04-11 01:21:08 <GlitchNZ> yay?
433 2013-04-11 01:21:19 pkjy has quit (Quit: Bye)
434 2013-04-11 01:21:34 <MWNinja> Its a U here and I can't figure it out, maybe if I set the gpu's to crack it
435 2013-04-11 01:21:44 <Uisgdlyast> is it still worth it to buy btc? by the time I get everything ready they've seem to somewhat stabilized
436 2013-04-11 01:21:50 fishfish has quit (Quit: Bye!)
437 2013-04-11 01:22:06 <Belxjander> Uisgdlyast: apparently a lot of people use small fonts where U and V get confused?... I use small fonts myself but always try for keeping things readable
438 2013-04-11 01:22:41 sensorii has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
439 2013-04-11 01:22:41 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
440 2013-04-11 01:22:54 <GlitchNZ> BTC is going to be volatile for the forseeable future - best bet is not get drawn into the regular panics
441 2013-04-11 01:23:03 <MWNinja> I am moving to large fonts lol
442 2013-04-11 01:23:15 <GlitchNZ> It should generally increase in value over any reasonable time frime
443 2013-04-11 01:23:17 sensorii has joined
444 2013-04-11 01:23:18 <GlitchNZ> *frame
445 2013-04-11 01:23:19 <Uisgdlyast> well you may need an eye exam or bigger font if U's look like V's
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450 2013-04-11 01:24:18 <Uisgdlyast> yeah but its not going to skyrocket like the last few weeks.. wtf was that about anyways? did some drug lord realize he could hid his profits while increasing them buying btc?
451 2013-04-11 01:24:34 triciam has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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454 2013-04-11 01:26:41 <GlitchNZ> I suspect it was the convergence of a number of coincidental events: Asics, Cyprus, Spain, Increased Difficulty, Reduced Reward etc etc
455 2013-04-11 01:26:52 CaptainBlaze has quit (Quit: CaptainBlaze)
456 2013-04-11 01:26:55 zrad has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
457 2013-04-11 01:27:28 <Uisgdlyast> the fact that it went from 10 to 30 to 70 pretty fast and everyone kept jumping on too
458 2013-04-11 01:27:36 <GlitchNZ> The overall effect was to change the supply/demand equation substansially. Add in the speculators, ddos attacks and occasional panic sell and the end result is what we see
459 2013-04-11 01:27:41 <Uisgdlyast> plus I hear its publicity went up
460 2013-04-11 01:28:15 <GlitchNZ> yes, self fulfilling - BTC doubles, makes it inot the big news papers, masses come in to try it out pushing the price up, lather rinse and repeat
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463 2013-04-11 01:28:43 <GlitchNZ> But I suspect a reasonable portion of the new comer will lose interest when the price stabalises
464 2013-04-11 01:29:43 <Uisgdlyast> unless people start accepting it as payment more
465 2013-04-11 01:29:47 stalled has joined
466 2013-04-11 01:30:40 <GlitchNZ> Even then - bitcoin still suffers from a liquidity problem, but we shall see
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473 2013-04-11 01:33:15 <Uisgdlyast> you mean cause I cant take it out of my pocket?
474 2013-04-11 01:33:40 <Uisgdlyast> that's where smart phones are going to come in, already apps to pay friends and shops in coins
475 2013-04-11 01:33:52 <diki> bitcointalk.org ddos again...
476 2013-04-11 01:35:00 <GlitchNZ> Its not about being able to take it out of your pocket - its about being able to quickly and easily convert from BTC to other currencies
477 2013-04-11 01:35:14 <GlitchNZ> and visa versa
478 2013-04-11 01:36:02 <GlitchNZ> Right now, for example, if I wanted to convert my BTC to local fiat, it would take 1 - 2 weeks
479 2013-04-11 01:36:40 <MWNinja> I could get it in my bank tomorrow with bitpay
480 2013-04-11 01:36:51 orblivion has joined
481 2013-04-11 01:36:58 <GlitchNZ> Yes well it depends on what country your in more than anything else
482 2013-04-11 01:37:16 <GlitchNZ> oddly enough, what BTC probably needs is a few big banks to get in on it
483 2013-04-11 01:37:17 <MWNinja> but the point is to make it spendable everywhere
484 2013-04-11 01:37:23 <Uisgdlyast> those fiats are kind of cool looking tho
485 2013-04-11 01:37:37 <MWNinja> lol I drive a fiat
486 2013-04-11 01:38:11 <Uisgdlyast> well the more people who use smart phones, the more people who can use bitcoin
487 2013-04-11 01:38:15 Mylon has quit ()
488 2013-04-11 01:38:21 <GlitchNZ> MWNinja, even if you could spend BTC anywhere - its not much use if people don't get paid in BTC, pay their taxes in BTC, their rent, phone bill etc. Sure the ideal is that people could pay those things, but thats a while away - especially with all the volatility in the price
489 2013-04-11 01:38:37 nova907767 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
490 2013-04-11 01:38:46 <Uisgdlyast> and then those guys that made the bitcoin atm that deposits coins into your wallet need to do the opposite, make one that you can take money out of
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493 2013-04-11 01:40:02 <GlitchNZ> yes that would be nice - basically IMO bitcoin needs a market cap of $1Triilion, A Major Bank in each Major Trading country that will work with it, and a stable price - then it should be very successful
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495 2013-04-11 01:40:42 <MWNinja> Yeah you know the price of bitcoin at a $1T market cap?
496 2013-04-11 01:40:51 ffapm is now known as Oprah
497 2013-04-11 01:40:54 <GlitchNZ> $47,000 once they are all minted
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499 2013-04-11 01:41:07 <MWNinja> Theres a big economic incentive to make that a reality
500 2013-04-11 01:41:25 <MWNinja> but it won't happen by speculation
501 2013-04-11 01:41:28 <GlitchNZ> Yes - especially to the ddos'ers who are making a killing sending the market into panic every 2 days
502 2013-04-11 01:41:30 <MWNinja> it takes investment
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505 2013-04-11 01:42:32 <GlitchNZ> yeah, no one will invest that kind of money until there is better infrastructure - it seems that the life of bitcoin rides almost entirly on mtgox - hopefully this will change very soon
506 2013-04-11 01:42:35 PhantomSpark has quit (Quit: Not all thats glitter is gold not all who wander are lost. - ospwrd.com)
507 2013-04-11 01:43:20 <GlitchNZ> probably need a distributed network of exchanges that work together to create some redundancy in the system
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510 2013-04-11 01:43:48 <GlitchNZ> I wonder how other forex exchangs deal with these kinds of problems
511 2013-04-11 01:45:20 <MWNinja> none of them functioned properly today
512 2013-04-11 01:45:52 <gonffen> I would imagine they halt trading
513 2013-04-11 01:45:55 <MWNinja> in forex you get angry over a few seconds of slippage, we had nearly an hour today in our market
514 2013-04-11 01:45:58 <GlitchNZ> I was just thinking if you could have a centralised exhchange, the only works with other trusted exchanges - but then I realised that bitcoin is the solution for decentralising anything centralised, so maybe we could create a crypto currency that represents trade in BTC? Kind of like a recursive currency
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516 2013-04-11 01:47:11 <gonffen> I had the thought today of decentralized exchanges
517 2013-04-11 01:47:16 <gonffen> I can't imagine how that would actually work
518 2013-04-11 01:47:20 Oprah has quit (Quit: Donate to Oprah: 1BvfuQd1H4SaAhjVjwkUUnQC9o7PGVRvZB. I will use your funds to purchase Bitcoins tomorrow at especially high prices. Buy my book. I'll give you a car.)
519 2013-04-11 01:47:29 <MWNinja> once its value is fully realized I would expect it to trade alongside other currency pairs globally
520 2013-04-11 01:47:47 <MWNinja> panda has a ticker for it...
521 2013-04-11 01:47:53 <MWNinja> oanda
522 2013-04-11 01:47:53 <GlitchNZ> Each block would be a colletion of buy and sell orders of BTC vs a particular fiat currency... somehow
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530 2013-04-11 01:50:29 <Belxjander> gonffen: I had that thought as well but then when I took the idea to this channel for how to do it... I found out I had a flawed idea
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533 2013-04-11 01:51:07 <gonffen> Belxjander: I think ripple could somehow be used to do it
534 2013-04-11 01:51:37 <GlitchNZ> Im trying to work it in my head, but I'm getting a headache
535 2013-04-11 01:51:41 <gonffen> assuming ripple was viable for anything, which I don't know that it is currently
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538 2013-04-11 01:53:15 Zoop has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
539 2013-04-11 01:53:22 <GlitchNZ> you could do it between 2 crypto currencies by having a 3rd that accepted inputs from the other 2
540 2013-04-11 01:53:48 <eb> i was sent btc two days ago and they have yet to arrive. I have the photos so ot os not a hoax. i have ordered many with this person before. any one help?
541 2013-04-11 01:53:49 <GlitchNZ> byt I have no idea how you would get fiat into the equation
542 2013-04-11 01:54:27 <GlitchNZ> eb: if you know the transaction id you can check the blockchain
543 2013-04-11 01:55:01 OneFixt has joined
544 2013-04-11 01:55:34 <eb> let me see if i can find that o the photo/ be back soon
545 2013-04-11 01:56:06 <GlitchNZ> if you created a crypto currency that was pegged to a fiat currency - but it would have to be centalised or it would take a life of its own
546 2013-04-11 01:56:54 <eb> looks like a lot of jinnerish to me.
547 2013-04-11 01:57:01 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
548 2013-04-11 01:57:22 <GlitchNZ> eb: if you can somehow send me the details on the photo - I can look it up for you
549 2013-04-11 01:57:53 i2pRelay has joined
550 2013-04-11 01:57:59 guest6125 has joined
551 2013-04-11 01:58:19 normanrichards has quit ()
552 2013-04-11 01:59:08 nanotube has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
553 2013-04-11 02:01:18 <eb> i could email it to you but i am a little earie on it because cant they be stolen?
554 2013-04-11 02:01:32 kalleboo has joined
555 2013-04-11 02:01:34 <GlitchNZ> not if the photo was taken by the sender
556 2013-04-11 02:01:50 <GlitchNZ> the only way someone could steal them is if the private key for the receiving address was in the picture
557 2013-04-11 02:03:13 guest6125 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
558 2013-04-11 02:03:54 ChanceCoats123 has joined
559 2013-04-11 02:03:57 <eb> would that be my address?
560 2013-04-11 02:04:14 <GlitchNZ> no, you key is stored in your wallet file
561 2013-04-11 02:04:16 <eb> there is alot of onformation on this paper
562 2013-04-11 02:04:27 <GlitchNZ> are you using bitcoin-qt, or a wallet service?
563 2013-04-11 02:05:26 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
564 2013-04-11 02:05:38 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
565 2013-04-11 02:05:57 Darin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
566 2013-04-11 02:05:57 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
567 2013-04-11 02:06:12 <muhoo> huh, something crashed the price today, looks like
568 2013-04-11 02:06:20 i2pRelay has joined
569 2013-04-11 02:06:31 <GlitchNZ> your address would looke something like: mphXneVUcbQ9XScHSnT1QDMB6y5jsGb8UL it is perfectly safe to share this with others, your private key would be a lot longer
570 2013-04-11 02:06:45 <eb> let me find out
571 2013-04-11 02:07:37 <GlitchNZ> addresses tend to start with the number 1
572 2013-04-11 02:07:40 jaequery has joined
573 2013-04-11 02:08:08 <GlitchNZ> correction: they ALWAYS start with a 1
574 2013-04-11 02:08:29 <GlitchNZ> or a 3
575 2013-04-11 02:08:31 <GlitchNZ> lol
576 2013-04-11 02:09:10 nanotube has joined
577 2013-04-11 02:09:11 <eb> can i email it to you
578 2013-04-11 02:09:11 hsmiths has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
579 2013-04-11 02:09:15 <GlitchNZ> sure
580 2013-04-11 02:09:16 zapsoda has left ("Leaving")
581 2013-04-11 02:09:30 <GlitchNZ> i sent you my email address by private message
582 2013-04-11 02:09:44 <GlitchNZ> it should appear as a tab with my nickname in your chat client
583 2013-04-11 02:11:02 stochasm has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
584 2013-04-11 02:11:20 hsmiths has joined
585 2013-04-11 02:11:21 <eb> where would the private key be or called than i will send
586 2013-04-11 02:11:43 <eb> it came from coinbase
587 2013-04-11 02:11:47 <sipa> eb: what photos?
588 2013-04-11 02:12:08 b00tkitz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
589 2013-04-11 02:12:29 <eb> photo of btc transaction that never made it to the address it was to go to
590 2013-04-11 02:12:29 * sipa zZzZ
591 2013-04-11 02:12:45 <sipa> transactions don't contain private keys
592 2013-04-11 02:13:09 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
593 2013-04-11 02:13:51 orblivion has joined
594 2013-04-11 02:13:53 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
595 2013-04-11 02:14:46 i2pRelay has joined
596 2013-04-11 02:15:55 stochasm has joined
597 2013-04-11 02:16:18 AlmightyBung has joined
598 2013-04-11 02:16:49 <eb> this is the transaction from coinbase and has a tone of onfo on it
599 2013-04-11 02:18:02 <GlitchNZ> ...
600 2013-04-11 02:18:24 SvenDiagram has quit (Quit: SvenDiagram)
601 2013-04-11 02:18:58 <eb> sending it to you glitchnz
602 2013-04-11 02:19:07 <GlitchNZ> ok
603 2013-04-11 02:19:14 da2ce7-mobile has joined
604 2013-04-11 02:20:28 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
605 2013-04-11 02:20:55 <eb> sent
606 2013-04-11 02:22:20 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
607 2013-04-11 02:22:52 <GlitchNZ> got it, just looking it up for you
608 2013-04-11 02:23:11 i2pRelay has joined
609 2013-04-11 02:23:25 <GlitchNZ> what is your bitcoin address - the one you wanted it sent to?
610 2013-04-11 02:23:32 pkjy has joined
611 2013-04-11 02:24:18 <eb> let me get it
612 2013-04-11 02:25:18 pkjy has quit (Client Quit)
613 2013-04-11 02:25:21 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
614 2013-04-11 02:25:45 <eb> Under Output it is the address that has the 2btc that never made it
615 2013-04-11 02:25:57 tg has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
616 2013-04-11 02:26:25 <GlitchNZ> What are you using to store your bitcoins? is it the bitcoin client, or a wallet service like coinbase?
617 2013-04-11 02:27:26 rdymac has joined
618 2013-04-11 02:27:52 <GlitchNZ> ...
619 2013-04-11 02:28:25 <GlitchNZ> It would be easier to help you if you could answer the questions quickly
620 2013-04-11 02:29:12 <eb> i was going on the site to find out
621 2013-04-11 02:29:20 <GlitchNZ> Which site?
622 2013-04-11 02:29:22 franl has quit (Quit: O Elbereth! Gilthoniel! We still remember ...)
623 2013-04-11 02:29:27 <eb> sr
624 2013-04-11 02:29:28 tg has joined
625 2013-04-11 02:29:38 SvenDiagram has joined
626 2013-04-11 02:29:51 <GlitchNZ> sr?
627 2013-04-11 02:30:07 monad7 has joined
628 2013-04-11 02:30:11 <monad7> hello all
629 2013-04-11 02:30:17 <monad7> how does the bitcoin client find peers?
630 2013-04-11 02:30:18 <GlitchNZ> Hi monad
631 2013-04-11 02:30:19 <eb> to purchase fireworks silk road
632 2013-04-11 02:30:33 Sevein has joined
633 2013-04-11 02:30:44 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
634 2013-04-11 02:31:03 <GlitchNZ> how did the person you sent the coins get the to address? Did you copy it from silk road?
635 2013-04-11 02:31:15 <MC1984> monad7 dns seeds
636 2013-04-11 02:31:33 normanrichards has joined
637 2013-04-11 02:31:33 i2pRelay has joined
638 2013-04-11 02:31:42 <eb> yes i did
639 2013-04-11 02:31:50 stochasm has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
640 2013-04-11 02:32:18 kalleboo is now known as kalleboo|away
641 2013-04-11 02:32:19 rdymac has quit (Client Quit)
642 2013-04-11 02:32:30 <GlitchNZ> ahh o.k.
643 2013-04-11 02:33:01 <monad7> MC1984 hrm: whats a DNS seed?
644 2013-04-11 02:33:01 <eb> cheaper than driving to nh to purchase them
645 2013-04-11 02:33:12 ForceMajeure has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
646 2013-04-11 02:33:39 <MC1984> dns entries bitcoin looks at the first time which contain records of a few high availability nodes
647 2013-04-11 02:33:50 <MC1984> after that it keeps its own list of many thousands
648 2013-04-11 02:34:04 <monad7> ah, so the first peers are included in the download?
649 2013-04-11 02:34:12 <MC1984> sort of
650 2013-04-11 02:34:19 Darin has joined
651 2013-04-11 02:34:21 <Luke-Jr> monad7: it prefers DNS right now I think
652 2013-04-11 02:34:55 <GlitchNZ> eb: with you in a moment
653 2013-04-11 02:35:03 xenesis has joined
654 2013-04-11 02:35:09 agricocb has joined
655 2013-04-11 02:35:13 <eb> plenty of time thank you
656 2013-04-11 02:35:15 <MC1984> the irc discovery stuff is gone now
657 2013-04-11 02:35:20 fanquake has joined
658 2013-04-11 02:35:20 <MC1984> and so is lfnet i heard
659 2013-04-11 02:36:37 Pinion has joined
660 2013-04-11 02:36:59 <monad7> I've got a transaction that is less then 1000 bytes. it has a fee of 0.005 bitcoin attached to it. it's taking longer then a 1/2 hour to propagate in the network. what could cause this?
661 2013-04-11 02:37:00 Pinion is now known as Guest92300
662 2013-04-11 02:37:03 stochasm has joined
663 2013-04-11 02:37:25 <MC1984> you mean confirm?
664 2013-04-11 02:37:43 <GlitchNZ> eb: the transaction is in the blockchain and confirmed over 300 times, that means the address in the transaction ahs the funds. If this address belongs to silkraod - then what your issue really is, is that silk road is not showing that the funds have arrived
665 2013-04-11 02:37:56 toffoo has joined
666 2013-04-11 02:38:16 <monad7> MC1982: confirm...or show up on blockchain.info
667 2013-04-11 02:38:29 <eb> wow
668 2013-04-11 02:38:32 <GlitchNZ> I recommend you first very carefully check that you did get the BTC sent to the right address, The address that received the money is the one listed on the right hand side of this page: 0e0fa5652b40faa0af7723c38ec654a505a7ab8913a7f4d8aec46e54b3e3f19a
669 2013-04-11 02:38:41 <GlitchNZ> woops
670 2013-04-11 02:38:44 <GlitchNZ> let me try that again
671 2013-04-11 02:38:52 <GlitchNZ> this page: http://blockchain.info/tx/0e0fa5652b40faa0af7723c38ec654a505a7ab8913a7f4d8aec46e54b3e3f19a
672 2013-04-11 02:38:59 <MC1984> b.i is not authoritive
673 2013-04-11 02:39:17 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
674 2013-04-11 02:39:25 <MC1984> maybe your client hasnt even send it or somthing
675 2013-04-11 02:39:25 <GlitchNZ> if you are absolutely certain that this is the address sr gave you, then you need to contact their support service to resolve the issue
676 2013-04-11 02:39:33 <eb> so it is still in coinbase it looks like
677 2013-04-11 02:39:50 <monad7> hrm
678 2013-04-11 02:39:51 <monad7> I donno
679 2013-04-11 02:39:57 <monad7> here is my transaction
680 2013-04-11 02:39:58 <monad7> 01000000020b81e51a074ae8dac24c4f5f826578fc013c3f476f9b772fee89744c2b53cb6f000000006b48304502204bc0ada326c2e77b13451c164c8d8edf6723711d1b69f88736b6089d8388f8a3022100fcf8823746835d76d06bc23d0a07a9022bb3280331af055f7017ea39e326516001210306537c334adc187cb6ca9ac40656830225ec21708d3393443773bf74eb00c667ffffffffdc0fbd586aaa0f972ee5e7b9e29fc7c9115a2c4163db4c41dda6e8b548b8de2e010000006c4930460221008abc9e2d5385ca9a3ce01ba562395f78aca09fb87
681 2013-04-11 02:39:59 i2pRelay has joined
682 2013-04-11 02:40:00 <GlitchNZ> no, once its in the block chain it is gone from the originating address
683 2013-04-11 02:40:13 <eb> anything i can mention to them si it sounds like i know about hte situation
684 2013-04-11 02:40:14 <monad7> not propagating for some reason
685 2013-04-11 02:41:03 <MC1984> maybe theres something wrong with it to stop it being relayed
686 2013-04-11 02:41:07 <GlitchNZ> eb: if you give them the transaction id (called hash on the screen shot you sent) 0e0fa5652b40faa0af7723c38ec654a505a7ab8913a7f4d8aec46e54b3e3f19a
687 2013-04-11 02:41:17 <GlitchNZ> eb: they will be able to verify it at their end
688 2013-04-11 02:41:24 <MC1984> !tslb
689 2013-04-11 02:41:30 <gribble> Time since last block: 7 minutes and 26 seconds
690 2013-04-11 02:41:42 <GlitchNZ> If you did get the address correct then they should credit your account - if the address is wrong however, the coins will be gone forever
691 2013-04-11 02:41:49 guruvan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
692 2013-04-11 02:42:25 <GlitchNZ> monad: I can't seem to decode that transaction - do you have the transaction id
693 2013-04-11 02:42:26 guruvan has joined
694 2013-04-11 02:42:40 <MC1984> try restarting your node i think that makes it broadcast again
695 2013-04-11 02:43:18 <monad7> 2edeb848b5e8a6dd414cdb63412c5a11c9c79fe2b9e7e52e970faa6a58bd0fdc
696 2013-04-11 02:43:23 impulse75 has quit ()
697 2013-04-11 02:43:39 <GlitchNZ> monad: 6 confirmations
698 2013-04-11 02:43:51 <monad7> err sorry
699 2013-04-11 02:43:52 <monad7> this one
700 2013-04-11 02:43:53 <monad7> 2996f0e5a7f4fe9dd18ddce36ad6c0edde2eca7091878fcc0ac318da762f2478
701 2013-04-11 02:43:53 <GlitchNZ> probably your node hasn't received the latest blocks from the network
702 2013-04-11 02:43:58 vlfig has joined
703 2013-04-11 02:44:10 <GlitchNZ> ok, it hasnt been sent
704 2013-04-11 02:44:24 valparaiso is now known as valparaiso_afk
705 2013-04-11 02:44:27 <monad7> ../bitcoin/src/bitcoind getblockcount 230739
706 2013-04-11 02:44:29 valparaiso_afk is now known as valparaiso
707 2013-04-11 02:44:30 <MC1984> just restat your node to cycle your peers
708 2013-04-11 02:44:41 eb has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
709 2013-04-11 02:44:42 <GlitchNZ> what he said
710 2013-04-11 02:44:45 <monad7> ok, I'm restarting the process
711 2013-04-11 02:45:00 RBecker is now known as rbecker
712 2013-04-11 02:45:14 <monad7> the transacction is still sitting there. zero confirmations. no proagation. fee of 0.005
713 2013-04-11 02:45:20 da2ce7 has joined
714 2013-04-11 02:45:22 <monad7> err 0.0005
715 2013-04-11 02:45:33 ChanceCoats123 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
716 2013-04-11 02:45:53 <GlitchNZ> just give it a minute or 2
717 2013-04-11 02:45:55 ChanceCoats123 has joined
718 2013-04-11 02:46:15 <monad7> its been over 1/2 hour ;)
719 2013-04-11 02:46:16 realazthat_ has joined
720 2013-04-11 02:46:22 <GlitchNZ> may need to wait for the next block before its picked up...
721 2013-04-11 02:46:26 realazthat has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
722 2013-04-11 02:46:27 <monad7> this transaction also took a long time. I'm assuming its because of the size, and the odd fee 2edeb848b5e8a6dd414cdb63412c5a11c9c79fe2b9e7e52e970faa6a58bd0fdc
723 2013-04-11 02:46:33 da2ce7 has quit (Client Quit)
724 2013-04-11 02:46:48 da2ce7 has joined
725 2013-04-11 02:46:55 o8gf5 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
726 2013-04-11 02:46:59 realazthat_ is now known as realazthat
727 2013-04-11 02:47:34 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
728 2013-04-11 02:48:01 <GlitchNZ> hows your internet connectin? I have crappy internet here so I am used to transactions taking a bit of time to show up on the network
729 2013-04-11 02:48:08 da2ce7_d has joined
730 2013-04-11 02:48:09 <monad7> should be great
731 2013-04-11 02:48:26 <GlitchNZ> not behind a firewall or anything that could be getting in the way
732 2013-04-11 02:48:28 i2pRelay has joined
733 2013-04-11 02:48:44 <monad7> GlitchNZ: oh interesting. do I need open incoming ports?
734 2013-04-11 02:49:06 <monad7> other transactions go fast
735 2013-04-11 02:49:11 da2ce7-mobile has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
736 2013-04-11 02:49:14 <GlitchNZ> well its p2p so I assume the client will need to be reachable from the outside world
737 2013-04-11 02:49:43 <GlitchNZ> Im not sure of the details - hopefully someone else in here can answer that question
738 2013-04-11 02:49:56 <MC1984> that doesnt matter
739 2013-04-11 02:50:04 Guest92300 has quit (Quit: Has quit)
740 2013-04-11 02:50:13 <MC1984> but open them anyway
741 2013-04-11 02:50:28 pacpac has quit (Ping timeout: 261 seconds)
742 2013-04-11 02:50:41 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Sayonara)
743 2013-04-11 02:50:58 <GlitchNZ> still waiting for the next block...
744 2013-04-11 02:52:19 <GlitchNZ> hmmm nogo
745 2013-04-11 02:53:01 <MC1984> cant you submit a txn directly to b.i or something
746 2013-04-11 02:53:17 [\\\] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
747 2013-04-11 02:53:37 <GlitchNZ> I just tried to send it manually - I get errors about the transaction itself
748 2013-04-11 02:53:46 [\\\] has joined
749 2013-04-11 02:54:01 <GlitchNZ> anyone should be able to decode a transaction right?
750 2013-04-11 02:55:02 <monad7> GlitchNZ: yeah, i think so
751 2013-04-11 02:55:05 Michail1_ is now known as Michail1
752 2013-04-11 02:55:16 <GlitchNZ> hmm I get: error: {"code":-22,"message":"TX decode failed"}
753 2013-04-11 02:55:36 <monad7> ok
754 2013-04-11 02:55:37 <monad7> here it is
755 2013-04-11 02:55:37 <GlitchNZ> monad: did you create the transaction manually?
756 2013-04-11 02:55:42 <monad7> yeah
757 2013-04-11 02:55:47 <monad7> here is my transaction; https://blockchain.info/tx/2996f0e5a7f4fe9dd18ddce36ad6c0edde2eca7091878fcc0ac318da762f2478
758 2013-04-11 02:55:49 fiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
759 2013-04-11 02:55:50 <GlitchNZ> ahh its showing up now :)
760 2013-04-11 02:55:52 <monad7> finally. but why did it take so long?
761 2013-04-11 02:55:59 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
762 2013-04-11 02:56:17 fiesh has joined
763 2013-04-11 02:56:17 [\\\] has quit (Client Quit)
764 2013-04-11 02:56:30 <TradeFortress> bug? apparenty this TX was sent from bitcoin-qt
765 2013-04-11 02:56:31 <TradeFortress> http://blockchain.info/tx/fbcdb02b50058345ddc806441dfc5c972042d3e88d79d05134a89d226db03cda
766 2013-04-11 02:56:37 <TradeFortress> with an obviously unacceptable fee
767 2013-04-11 02:56:37 <GlitchNZ> well after you restarted it showed up on the second block - which is not to bad considering the priority of the transaction
768 2013-04-11 02:56:55 i2pRelay has joined
769 2013-04-11 02:57:11 [\\\] has joined
770 2013-04-11 02:57:33 [\\\] has quit (Client Quit)
771 2013-04-11 02:57:51 <GlitchNZ> TradeFortress: I am about to edit the source of bitcoin-qt to let me send transactions without the correct fee, I presume its possible for someone else to do the same
772 2013-04-11 02:57:59 [\\\] has joined
773 2013-04-11 02:58:26 <MC1984> looks like you needed to cycle your peers
774 2013-04-11 02:58:37 new299_ has joined
775 2013-04-11 02:58:39 ForceMajeure has joined
776 2013-04-11 02:58:43 <TradeFortress> GlitchNZ, this is from a bitcoin newbie who's wondering why his TX isn't confirming
777 2013-04-11 02:58:58 <GlitchNZ> Then that is probably a bug
778 2013-04-11 02:59:01 <GlitchNZ> :)
779 2013-04-11 02:59:12 <new299_> Hi all, my ISP (Leaseweb) appears to have a blanket ban on this channel. This there any chance of removing the ban?
780 2013-04-11 02:59:25 pacpac has joined
781 2013-04-11 02:59:32 AlmightyBung has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
782 2013-04-11 02:59:33 <monad7> GlitchNZ: ok, how do you determine the priority?
783 2013-04-11 02:59:40 <MC1984> probably banned for a reason
784 2013-04-11 02:59:46 <GlitchNZ> The oddly recursive nature of fees probably means the code can never be 100% anyway
785 2013-04-11 03:00:13 <new299_> MC1984: I would guess so, but the whole ISP has been banned, which seems like it could be a mistake?
786 2013-04-11 03:00:27 jMyles has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
787 2013-04-11 03:00:37 <MC1984> probably a persistent troll makes that happen
788 2013-04-11 03:00:45 <MC1984> someone might lift it
789 2013-04-11 03:01:21 [\\\] has quit (Client Quit)
790 2013-04-11 03:01:21 <MC1984> monad7 priority is based on fees, output age, size etc
791 2013-04-11 03:01:24 <MC1984> lots of dos rules
792 2013-04-11 03:01:30 <monad7> gotcha
793 2013-04-11 03:01:46 [\\\] has joined
794 2013-04-11 03:01:59 <GlitchNZ> monad: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
795 2013-04-11 03:03:00 <GlitchNZ> basically, larger BTC quantaties with Older inputs and smaller transaction sizes have better priority
796 2013-04-11 03:03:00 <new299_> MC1984: so Leaseweb is a server colo company, I would guess banning just the trolls server IP would be enough. Anyway, I'd be interested in hearing about bitcoin development related stuff. I've been hanging around in #bitcoin for a while and I've not been banned there... so I'd appricate it if possible.
797 2013-04-11 03:03:24 <MC1984> im not op
798 2013-04-11 03:03:44 <GlitchNZ> so if your flicking lots of satoshis back and forth in a short space of time, they will get picked up slowly
799 2013-04-11 03:03:51 <MC1984> one of them might see if you hang around
800 2013-04-11 03:04:27 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
801 2013-04-11 03:04:32 <MC1984> a lot of serious dev stuff is discussed on the mailing list too pretty interesting
802 2013-04-11 03:05:21 i2pRelay has joined
803 2013-04-11 03:05:27 <new299_> Anyway... if an op would consider remove the ban I'd appreciate it. My server IP is 95.211.118.248 and my freenode nick is new299.
804 2013-04-11 03:05:48 <new299_> MC1984: Thanks, yep I've been checking out the mailing list.
805 2013-04-11 03:06:45 tg has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
806 2013-04-11 03:06:52 grau has joined
807 2013-04-11 03:06:53 gentoovps has joined
808 2013-04-11 03:06:53 <GlitchNZ> new: your server only has 1 ip address?
809 2013-04-11 03:07:02 <GlitchNZ> ignore that
810 2013-04-11 03:07:07 <GlitchNZ> i missunderstood the sttement
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826 2013-04-11 03:16:38 xenesis_ is now known as xenesis
827 2013-04-11 03:16:51 JohnSmith333 has joined
828 2013-04-11 03:17:29 <JohnSmith333> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Units Can somebody remove the useless tonal measurements from this article?
829 2013-04-11 03:17:41 gentoovps has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
830 2013-04-11 03:17:43 <JohnSmith333> It makes rather... confusing to anyone who doesn't know what Tonal is.
831 2013-04-11 03:18:03 gentoovps has joined
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837 2013-04-11 03:21:44 <Luke-Jr> JohnSmith333: no
838 2013-04-11 03:21:54 <Luke-Jr> they're not useless
839 2013-04-11 03:22:03 ForceMajeure has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
840 2013-04-11 03:22:07 i2pRelay has joined
841 2013-04-11 03:22:34 NataLia has joined
842 2013-04-11 03:23:29 <JohnSmith333> Luke-Jr: How many bitcoiners use tonal?
843 2013-04-11 03:24:08 toffoo has joined
844 2013-04-11 03:24:19 <Luke-Jr> JohnSmith333: more than use microbitcoin
845 2013-04-11 03:24:20 Goonie_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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848 2013-04-11 03:26:46 kalleboo is now known as away!~kalleboo@i118-18-140-128.s11.a046.ap.plala.or.jp|kalleboo
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853 2013-04-11 03:28:13 vlfig has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
854 2013-04-11 03:28:18 <GlitchNZ> hmm Tonal is a rather obscure thing to include in a prototype currency
855 2013-04-11 03:28:20 <jrmithdobbs> JohnSmith333: by which he means "one" (him) ;p
856 2013-04-11 03:28:24 <HM> fun fun fun
857 2013-04-11 03:28:49 <GlitchNZ> Could we have an imperial system for bitcoin as well?
858 2013-04-11 03:28:55 o3u has quit (Quit: leaving)
859 2013-04-11 03:29:08 <GlitchNZ> maybe octal while we are at it
860 2013-04-11 03:29:15 <Luke-Jr> GlitchNZ: imperial is an odd mix of dozenal and tonal, more or less
861 2013-04-11 03:29:23 tyn has quit (Client Quit)
862 2013-04-11 03:29:38 <Luke-Jr> I think porting Bitcoin to dozenal would be a nice addition, but I'm not into dozenal personally
863 2013-04-11 03:29:39 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
864 2013-04-11 03:29:50 <Belxjander> GlitchNZ: I'll personally stick with metric bitcoin myself ;)
865 2013-04-11 03:29:50 vcorem_ has joined
866 2013-04-11 03:29:57 xenesis_ has joined
867 2013-04-11 03:29:59 <GlitchNZ> Luke: Imperial is a nice mix of base12 and tonal (and the english even threw in some base 13 for good measure)
868 2013-04-11 03:30:28 Cryo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
869 2013-04-11 03:30:29 <Luke-Jr> GlitchNZ: dozenal is base twelve
870 2013-04-11 03:30:33 i2pRelay has joined
871 2013-04-11 03:30:37 <GlitchNZ> Luke I know
872 2013-04-11 03:30:59 <GlitchNZ> the emphasis on that state ment was NICE instead of ODD
873 2013-04-11 03:31:09 <Luke-Jr> ah
874 2013-04-11 03:31:20 <Luke-Jr> well, I personally support using the same radix for all measures :p
875 2013-04-11 03:31:52 <Luke-Jr> mixing and matching just gets confusing
876 2013-04-11 03:32:13 <GlitchNZ> We could have a variable radix - like, bitcoins are expressed in a radix relative to their magnitude
877 2013-04-11 03:32:13 fanquake has left ()
878 2013-04-11 03:32:54 <HM> 1 microsatoshi
879 2013-04-11 03:32:56 <Luke-Jr> GlitchNZ: a logarithmic measure?
880 2013-04-11 03:32:59 <HM> 1 gigasatoshi
881 2013-04-11 03:33:01 <HM> :P
882 2013-04-11 03:33:07 xenesis has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
883 2013-04-11 03:33:13 <GlitchNZ> Luke: yes although that might get a little hard even for me
884 2013-04-11 03:34:08 <GlitchNZ> HM: a Gigasatoshi would be expressed in base 10 using my system, I suspect no matter what base we use a micro satoshi will be difficult to represent
885 2013-04-11 03:34:14 systemParanoid has joined
886 2013-04-11 03:34:28 <GlitchNZ> Correction: giga -> base 12
887 2013-04-11 03:34:28 <Luke-Jr> GlitchNZ: which base 10? ;)
888 2013-04-11 03:34:38 <GlitchNZ> base 12 (expressed in base 10)
889 2013-04-11 03:34:44 <GlitchNZ> aarrggg
890 2013-04-11 03:34:46 xenesis_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
891 2013-04-11 03:35:02 <Luke-Jr> this is why I use base 3*4, 8*2, or 5*2 if not their proper names âº
892 2013-04-11 03:35:05 <GlitchNZ> ok, metrix works for me
893 2013-04-11 03:35:30 <Luke-Jr> there we go, #bitcoin-watch fixed
894 2013-04-11 03:35:33 * Luke-Jr kicks bitcoind
895 2013-04-11 03:35:37 celehner has left ()
896 2013-04-11 03:35:43 <GlitchNZ> I like hexidecimal - I celebrate my birthday inn hexidecimal to feel younger
897 2013-04-11 03:36:02 NataLia has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
898 2013-04-11 03:36:07 <jrmithdobbs> because you can't count in hexadecimal? or what
899 2013-04-11 03:36:15 <Luke-Jr> lol
900 2013-04-11 03:36:37 <GlitchNZ> I can count in hexidecimal - next year I will be 0x20 which is way better than 32 in base 10
901 2013-04-11 03:36:48 <GlitchNZ> im effteen right now
902 2013-04-11 03:36:49 <Luke-Jr> but you can't even spell hexadecimal!
903 2013-04-11 03:36:49 <Arnavion> hexa*
904 2013-04-11 03:37:28 <GlitchNZ> In 2 years I get to have another 21st :)
905 2013-04-11 03:37:42 <GlitchNZ> after that, base 20 will be next
906 2013-04-11 03:38:05 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
907 2013-04-11 03:38:25 <HM> i think people are familiar enough with kilo, mega and giga
908 2013-04-11 03:38:35 <HM> gigabitcoin sounds cheesy though
909 2013-04-11 03:38:48 <Arnavion> Sounds like an ISP
910 2013-04-11 03:38:49 <Luke-Jr> HM: doesn't make the units suck any less
911 2013-04-11 03:38:53 <Luke-Jr> also, gigabitcoin doesn't exist ;)
912 2013-04-11 03:38:53 <GlitchNZ> We only have a 2 candle and a 1 candle in my house, so if anyone has a birthday cake here, we just work out what base to represent their age so that 21 is the right number
913 2013-04-11 03:38:59 i2pRelay has joined
914 2013-04-11 03:39:01 <Arnavion> gibibitcoin formaximum SI compliance!
915 2013-04-11 03:39:07 <HM> who knows? a yoctosatoshi might buy you a dance with a bitcoin developer one day :P
916 2013-04-11 03:39:53 <Luke-Jr> Arnavion: SI sucks
917 2013-04-11 03:40:12 <Arnavion> It's better than imperial
918 2013-04-11 03:40:48 <GlitchNZ> I have never forgiven the world for the kiba giba bullcrap
919 2013-04-11 03:41:01 <GlitchNZ> just a way for seagate and western digital to rip us off
920 2013-04-11 03:41:21 o2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
921 2013-04-11 03:41:26 <Arnavion> It ought to be common knowledge, really
922 2013-04-11 03:41:28 <Luke-Jr> Arnavion: no, it isn't.
923 2013-04-11 03:41:30 rudedog has quit ()
924 2013-04-11 03:41:44 milone has joined
925 2013-04-11 03:41:51 <Luke-Jr> imperial, while inconsistent, at least has natural unit sizes
926 2013-04-11 03:41:53 panzer has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
927 2013-04-11 03:42:10 o2 has joined
928 2013-04-11 03:42:11 <Arnavion> Personally I use the abbreviations in writing (GiB, KiB) but speak them out loud as gigabytes / kilobytes
929 2013-04-11 03:42:13 <gonffen> GlitchNZ: that is genius. always 12 or 21 in some base :D
930 2013-04-11 03:42:14 <Arnavion> Best of both worlds
931 2013-04-11 03:42:19 msiren_ has joined
932 2013-04-11 03:42:29 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
933 2013-04-11 03:42:31 <GlitchNZ> one day NASA will lose a sattelite due to incorrect SI/Metric conversion
934 2013-04-11 03:42:40 <gonffen> Luke-Jr: 'natural' is a matter of opinion
935 2013-04-11 03:42:50 <Luke-Jr> gonffen: not at all
936 2013-04-11 03:42:50 da2ce7-mobile has joined
937 2013-04-11 03:42:58 panzer has joined
938 2013-04-11 03:43:02 <gonffen> Luke-Jr: tell that too someone who was brought up using SI
939 2013-04-11 03:43:11 dust-otc has joined
940 2013-04-11 03:43:18 <Luke-Jr> gonffen: familiarity and natural are two different things
941 2013-04-11 03:43:30 <Luke-Jr> gonffen: humans naturally work in 2s and 3s
942 2013-04-11 03:43:32 <Luke-Jr> never 5s
943 2013-04-11 03:43:38 <gonffen> oh?
944 2013-04-11 03:43:41 <gonffen> I have five fingers
945 2013-04-11 03:43:41 <Luke-Jr> (even 3s are a stretch, really)
946 2013-04-11 03:43:44 <gonffen> five is pretty natural
947 2013-04-11 03:43:45 <Luke-Jr> gonffen: irrelevant
948 2013-04-11 03:43:50 <Luke-Jr> why would you use five?
949 2013-04-11 03:43:50 <jgarzik> MtGox statement on lag: https://plus.google.com/100448119000434100275/posts/NA93h63x4cU
950 2013-04-11 03:43:55 gagecolton has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
951 2013-04-11 03:43:56 <GlitchNZ> Luke: the 'tally mark' system is base 5
952 2013-04-11 03:43:57 tg has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
953 2013-04-11 03:44:14 gagecolton has joined
954 2013-04-11 03:44:21 gentoovps has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
955 2013-04-11 03:44:29 <gonffen> I don't have the knowledge to argue with you, but I'm really not buying what you're saying now.
956 2013-04-11 03:44:38 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
957 2013-04-11 03:44:52 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: crazy
958 2013-04-11 03:44:56 b4tt3r135 has joined
959 2013-04-11 03:45:00 <GlitchNZ> gonffen: if you are writing low level code - base 2 and hex are very natural, base 10 is annoying
960 2013-04-11 03:45:04 <Luke-Jr> gonffen: try cutting your next pizza into 5 or 10 slices
961 2013-04-11 03:45:17 <GlitchNZ> lol
962 2013-04-11 03:45:23 <gonffen> lol
963 2013-04-11 03:45:26 msiren has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
964 2013-04-11 03:45:46 <gonffen> never had a rectangular pizza?
965 2013-04-11 03:45:47 <gonffen> :P
966 2013-04-11 03:45:55 <GlitchNZ> Luke: try cutting yours using the tonal system - 16 slices
967 2013-04-11 03:46:03 <Luke-Jr> gonffen: even applies to a rectangular pizza
968 2013-04-11 03:46:08 <Luke-Jr> GlitchNZ: sure, I usually do
969 2013-04-11 03:46:13 <Luke-Jr> GlitchNZ: it's quite easy
970 2013-04-11 03:46:22 <GlitchNZ> sorry, in NZ pizzas are to small to be cut into 16
971 2013-04-11 03:46:26 <Luke-Jr> lol
972 2013-04-11 03:46:31 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
973 2013-04-11 03:46:40 <gonffen> GlitchNZ: I've got some experience with architecture so I understand from a coding perspective.
974 2013-04-11 03:46:47 <jrmithdobbs> GlitchNZ: too much bandwidth to get the dough into the country?
975 2013-04-11 03:46:53 <GlitchNZ> oddly, we measure our pizza bases in inches - about the only thing here not in metric
976 2013-04-11 03:46:57 DrAkaman has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
977 2013-04-11 03:47:07 tg has joined
978 2013-04-11 03:47:15 <gonffen> Luke-Jr: I guess what you're saying here is that it is easier to cut in halves?
979 2013-04-11 03:47:24 i2pRelay has joined
980 2013-04-11 03:47:30 <Luke-Jr> gonffen: yes, it's natural for the human brain to halve things
981 2013-04-11 03:47:37 <Luke-Jr> to work in 2s
982 2013-04-11 03:47:46 <GlitchNZ> sounds right: base 2 is clear winner when it comes to pizza cutting
983 2013-04-11 03:47:59 <gonffen> I can agree with that
984 2013-04-11 03:48:04 <gonffen> I think 10 works better for counting however
985 2013-04-11 03:48:44 <gonffen> but I'm surely biased by using base-10 for the vast majority of the math I've done
986 2013-04-11 03:49:00 <GlitchNZ> If you have some data that you need to save to memory address 0x0001F25, and you need to know the next available memory address - do you want to work in base 10?
987 2013-04-11 03:49:28 <Luke-Jr> gonffen: I am teaching my children in multiple systems so they are unbiased
988 2013-04-11 03:49:37 <GlitchNZ> 1 kibabyte:0x0002F25, 1 kilobyte:?????
989 2013-04-11 03:49:54 <gonffen> GlitchNZ: well obviously not that'd be silly
990 2013-04-11 03:50:01 <gonffen> well
991 2013-04-11 03:50:02 <GlitchNZ> hmm thats wrong but you get the idea
992 2013-04-11 03:50:07 <gonffen> I'm basing that off of the systems I've worked with
993 2013-04-11 03:50:19 <gonffen> they were all byte or word addressable
994 2013-04-11 03:50:32 <gonffen> I don't believe that is a universal thing?
995 2013-04-11 03:50:49 <gonffen> you know
996 2013-04-11 03:50:55 <gonffen> I think I just said something stupid
997 2013-04-11 03:51:03 <GlitchNZ> quite possibly
998 2013-04-11 03:51:07 <gonffen> it's been a while since I've looked at such things and I apologise.
999 2013-04-11 03:51:20 <petertodd> jgarzik: So, Mt. Gox is getting about as many accounts created every day as there are transactions on the Bitcoin network...
1000 2013-04-11 03:51:32 daveluke has quit (Quit: daveluke)
1001 2013-04-11 03:51:35 <Luke-Jr> I should really get around to fixing my watch to display temperature in tonal Temps too
1002 2013-04-11 03:51:39 <petertodd> jgarzik: ...and people don't think off-chain transactions are a thing. :P
1003 2013-04-11 03:51:47 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: who? O.o
1004 2013-04-11 03:51:59 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: MtGox clearly has far more off-chain transactions than the blockchain does
1005 2013-04-11 03:52:17 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Absolutely. Probably orders of magnitude more.
1006 2013-04-11 03:52:30 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: But the economic basis of Bitcoin right now is store of value and speculation so...
1007 2013-04-11 03:53:05 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Well, and probably still Silk Road, but the Silk Road and every site like it are all off-chain tx systems.
1008 2013-04-11 03:53:13 <warren> It's surreal to hear Gavin on NPR.
1009 2013-04-11 03:53:31 <lianj> 50btc down?
1010 2013-04-11 03:53:53 <warren> lianj: just p2pool and stop caring about the pools
1011 2013-04-11 03:53:56 <HM> Mtgox latencies have been apalling, i'm told
1012 2013-04-11 03:54:07 <Luke-Jr> I wonder if anyone would be interested in sponsoring me to go to the conference in a month <.<
1013 2013-04-11 03:54:27 <jgarzik> petertodd: ;p
1014 2013-04-11 03:54:39 Darin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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1016 2013-04-11 03:55:05 <jrmithdobbs> i think gmaxwell should be sponsor everyone going with that exchange rate ;p
1017 2013-04-11 03:55:07 fangfufu has joined
1018 2013-04-11 03:55:11 <jrmithdobbs> s/sponsor/sponsoring
1019 2013-04-11 03:55:19 <lianj> warren: not enough luck ^^
1020 2013-04-11 03:55:24 <petertodd> Lol, yeah I paid for my flight/fees with anon donations.
1021 2013-04-11 03:55:48 i2pRelay has joined
1022 2013-04-11 03:55:50 sawtooth has joined
1023 2013-04-11 03:56:01 <petertodd> Although I'm speaking there now too, so I dunno, maybe that means I don't need to pay conf fees anymore. :P
1024 2013-04-11 03:56:07 <Luke-Jr> heh
1025 2013-04-11 03:57:16 Ferroh has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1029 2013-04-11 03:57:32 <CodeShark> I'm paying for mine from capital gains in the bitcoin markets :p
1030 2013-04-11 03:57:50 Ashaman has joined
1031 2013-04-11 03:59:20 <petertodd> Oh, and in case anyone is wondering, to date I've gotten just over $2000 in donations for my 1MB blocks/off-chain tx advocacy. Interestingly, every last cent has been done anonymously, with the biggest being $1500 in one go. (that doner was very clear that financial privacy was important to them)
1032 2013-04-11 04:00:24 Darin has joined
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1034 2013-04-11 04:00:51 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: just advocacy? :o
1035 2013-04-11 04:00:53 Ferroh_ has joined
1036 2013-04-11 04:01:15 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Well, I haven't written a single line of code yet...
1037 2013-04-11 04:01:28 <CodeShark> if I had a penny for everything I've ever advocated I'd probably be retired by now :p
1038 2013-04-11 04:02:06 <CodeShark> wait, people pay for bitcoin development?
1039 2013-04-11 04:02:07 <jrmithdobbs> petertodd: oh is that where I went wrong? i'll rebase that freebsd build patch if you can find someone to donate ;p
1040 2013-04-11 04:02:33 <petertodd> CodeShark: Yes, but only if you stick to talking about it.
1041 2013-04-11 04:02:41 <jrmithdobbs> CodeShark: no
1042 2013-04-11 04:02:51 <jrmithdobbs> CodeShark: that was the joke
1043 2013-04-11 04:03:14 <jrmithdobbs> they apparently pay for advocacy of development though, sipa should stop writing code and start talking about writing code ;p
1044 2013-04-11 04:03:20 <CodeShark> lol
1045 2013-04-11 04:03:21 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1046 2013-04-11 04:03:22 Ferroh has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1047 2013-04-11 04:03:29 <HM> Single lines of code are the most expensive kind of code
1048 2013-04-11 04:03:49 <petertodd> Someone needs to try a new approach: stick to only talking about talking about writing lines of code.
1049 2013-04-11 04:04:07 <jrmithdobbs> maybe that's how you get the big bucks
1050 2013-04-11 04:04:12 <CodeShark> how about writing code that talks about writing code?
1051 2013-04-11 04:04:13 witwit has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1052 2013-04-11 04:04:14 i2pRelay has joined
1053 2013-04-11 04:04:18 <petertodd> jrmithdobbs: ...or devcoins.
1054 2013-04-11 04:04:30 <jrmithdobbs> CodeShark: nope, you wrote code so your actions are worthless again, sorry
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1066 2013-04-11 04:16:05 <robbak> HMm, have I got the wrong end of the stick on this: From statements made I had assumed that the default client downloads the blockchain from a single peer, at least until that peer drops the connection.
1067 2013-04-11 04:16:45 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
1068 2013-04-11 04:16:48 <robbak> Then it looks for a new client when it receives a fresh block in the normal way.
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1072 2013-04-11 04:19:05 <GlitchNZ> robbak - I expect so, the whole point of BTC is not to trust any single person on the network
1073 2013-04-11 04:19:34 <GlitchNZ> the client must get blocks from others, even if just to verify the ones its getting are correct
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1084 2013-04-11 04:24:50 <robbak> Of course, once caught up, it receives blocks from all its peers. I'm referring to the initial block download.
1085 2013-04-11 04:25:23 BTCOxygen has joined
1086 2013-04-11 04:25:36 <Arnavion> It is the same for the initial block download as well
1087 2013-04-11 04:25:57 <Arnavion> It will download from upto 8 peers; more if you have the port open
1088 2013-04-11 04:26:20 <jrmithdobbs> robbak: IBD happens from a single node at least until the last checkpoint
1089 2013-04-11 04:26:33 owowo is now known as owowodopolous
1090 2013-04-11 04:26:41 <jrmithdobbs> robbak: after that things gets a little more complicated/hard to follow, but up until that checkpoint it will most likely all come from a single peer
1091 2013-04-11 04:26:54 <jrmithdobbs> (unless you have connectivity issues)
1092 2013-04-11 04:26:59 Young-georg_ has joined
1093 2013-04-11 04:27:27 someonesomewhere has joined
1094 2013-04-11 04:27:28 <jrmithdobbs> it doesn't matter that it all comes from the same peer up to the checkpoint since it's chekpointed in the code
1095 2013-04-11 04:27:43 <jrmithdobbs> but after that you also only download from one peer at any given time (unless i missed a big change)
1096 2013-04-11 04:27:59 <robbak> jrmithdobbs: That's about what I thought. It's becoming a problem, though, because it means that clients cannot control their uploads without harming the network.
1097 2013-04-11 04:28:06 <jrmithdobbs> this is safe because you can verify after the fact, worse case you have to re-download
1098 2013-04-11 04:28:25 <Arnavion> Are you saying that even when it connects to n peers, it only downloads from one at a time?
1099 2013-04-11 04:28:37 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1100 2013-04-11 04:28:37 <jrmithdobbs> robbak: it's really not, it's bottlenecked by cpu on the receiving side doing the verifications any how (after the checkpoint!)
1101 2013-04-11 04:28:38 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1102 2013-04-11 04:28:52 <jrmithdobbs> Arnavion: i am
1103 2013-04-11 04:29:00 <Arnavion> I didn't know that
1104 2013-04-11 04:29:24 <jrmithdobbs> the p2p code is quite suboptimal, it's p much the bare necessity to have a function flood p2p network and not much else
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1106 2013-04-11 04:29:33 <jrmithdobbs> s/function/functional/
1107 2013-04-11 04:29:40 <Young-georg_> Hello... i first day using bitcoin and have a question... i wait comfirmation of receive transaction around 8 hours... is it normal?
1108 2013-04-11 04:30:06 <jrmithdobbs> only if you did something your client tried to stop you from doing
1109 2013-04-11 04:30:06 <robbak> jrmithdobbs: So the idea I just posted on the mailing list, that the ability to set a client to only support 1 IBD at a time, would help fix choked uplinks
1110 2013-04-11 04:30:42 <jrmithdobbs> robbak: it doesn't seem to actually be an issue though, if you get hung up on a slow peer you just reconnect
1111 2013-04-11 04:31:20 <robbak> Young-georg_: It is if you do not add an optional fee (.5 uBTC) The space for no-fee transactions is limited ATPM
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1115 2013-04-11 04:32:39 <eklass> sorry, i know this isn't -dev topic, but i figured this was a better audience than #bitcoin. is anyone going to bitcoin conference 2013 in san jose?
1116 2013-04-11 04:33:15 <jrmithdobbs> it's in san jose?
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1118 2013-04-11 04:33:31 <eklass> may 17-19, 2013 in san jose, ca
1119 2013-04-11 04:33:35 <eklass> http://www.bitcoin2013.com/index.html
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1121 2013-04-11 04:35:08 <jrmithdobbs> i might go drink with some of you bitches then ;p
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1123 2013-04-11 04:35:28 <gmaxwell> Crazy people in your github? it's more likely than you think: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/273
1124 2013-04-11 04:35:36 <Young-georg_> robbak I waite transaction from exchange service (metabank) i checked it with blockchain.info so there fee is 0.... How long time need to waite transactions without fee usually?
1125 2013-04-11 04:35:46 <eklass> hah... well, i'm looking to go and just curious which hotel will be the best/most popular. looks like the fairmont is closest to the conference center, but i'm not a local.... so......
1126 2013-04-11 04:36:01 bigtip has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1127 2013-04-11 04:36:10 <jrmithdobbs> shoulda picked a real city ;p
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1131 2013-04-11 04:37:04 <jrmithdobbs> gmaxwell: wow that issue is crazy
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1136 2013-04-11 04:37:53 <lianj> nice, 5 years of github. that went fast
1137 2013-04-11 04:39:02 <GandalfGreyHat> Any sw engineers out there want to join a nifty project? You'll have to sign an NDA of course. There's a $1000 binding retainer and 5 hours/week worth of stipend until launch, and you move to fulltime two weeks after launch.
1138 2013-04-11 04:39:25 <jrmithdobbs> lol
1139 2013-04-11 04:39:37 <jrmithdobbs> go look for slaves/interns elsewhere?
1140 2013-04-11 04:39:55 <GandalfGreyHat> Was looking for partners actually.
1141 2013-04-11 04:40:02 Darin has joined
1142 2013-04-11 04:40:20 <jrmithdobbs> gonna have to do better than ~$100/week then probably huh
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1144 2013-04-11 04:40:30 <JohnSmith333> Bitcoin-Qt made my internet unusable the other day when my brother started downloading the blockchain
1145 2013-04-11 04:40:31 pacpac has joined
1146 2013-04-11 04:40:33 <GandalfGreyHat> Price yourself then.
1147 2013-04-11 04:40:37 Belxjander has joined
1148 2013-04-11 04:40:41 <GandalfGreyHat> What are you worth Mr. jrmithdobbs?
1149 2013-04-11 04:40:44 <JohnSmith333> It is an issue
1150 2013-04-11 04:40:50 <GlitchNZ> gmaxwell - if that many people want it, I think it should be done - I will see if I can look into the code myself - but I don't usually work with C
1151 2013-04-11 04:40:56 <jrmithdobbs> GandalfGreyHat: not for sale
1152 2013-04-11 04:41:08 <GandalfGreyHat> Then don't comment where your mouth doesn't belong.
1153 2013-04-11 04:41:09 <gmaxwell> GandalfGreyHat: if your business dealings fall through with these people will you begin making death threats and elaborate murder fantasies?
1154 2013-04-11 04:41:14 <jrmithdobbs> GandalfGreyHat: if i wanted to be paid to write other people's shit software i'd go back to work ;p
1155 2013-04-11 04:41:30 <GlitchNZ> <--- always for sale
1156 2013-04-11 04:41:44 <GlitchNZ> my rate is 1BTC per hour
1157 2013-04-11 04:41:59 <GandalfGreyHat> Sure, let me get you to sign that on paper
1158 2013-04-11 04:42:03 <GandalfGreyHat> We'll start paying you next week.
1159 2013-04-11 04:42:14 <GlitchNZ> Then I will start working next week
1160 2013-04-11 04:42:14 <GandalfGreyHat> ;)
1161 2013-04-11 04:42:43 <GlitchNZ> do I have to go full time if your project is successful?
1162 2013-04-11 04:42:50 <GandalfGreyHat> Nah
1163 2013-04-11 04:43:00 <GlitchNZ> good, because my full time rate is 10BTC
1164 2013-04-11 04:43:27 <GlitchNZ> msg me the details, I'm always open to opprotunities
1165 2013-04-11 04:43:37 BTCOxygen is now known as 1!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/btcoxygen|BTCOxygen
1166 2013-04-11 04:43:40 <GandalfGreyHat> Can we pay you in pizza? I hear it's really valuable these days.
1167 2013-04-11 04:43:47 <GandalfGreyHat> Haha, j/k
1168 2013-04-11 04:44:04 <GandalfGreyHat> But yeah, we can chat really quick.
1169 2013-04-11 04:44:12 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: do you take pirate debt?
1170 2013-04-11 04:44:29 <GlitchNZ> Pizza and beer often suffice for a sw engineer, but usually only while they are still at college
1171 2013-04-11 04:45:01 <GlitchNZ> gmaxwell as ong as I can take a limb as collateral
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1174 2013-04-11 04:45:16 <GandalfGreyHat> That's fine, pirate owes me one.
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1282 2013-04-11 06:06:40 <jolar> I know C++ but I am not experienced with diving into a codebase to figure out how it works.
1283 2013-04-11 06:06:50 <jolar> I would like to do this with bitcoin, so that I know how it works inside
1284 2013-04-11 06:07:09 <jolar> Any pointers, or should I just read the code until it starts to make sense?
1285 2013-04-11 06:07:27 <n1c> That.
1286 2013-04-11 06:07:31 Scrat has joined
1287 2013-04-11 06:08:25 <jolar> Is there any sort of design document that describes the overall architecture of bitcoin's classes, objects, etc?
1288 2013-04-11 06:08:42 <n1c> Not that I'm aware of.
1289 2013-04-11 06:08:45 <n1c> If you find it let me know :p
1290 2013-04-11 06:08:55 <jolar> haha
1291 2013-04-11 06:09:07 <JohnSmith333> jolar: Make it.
1292 2013-04-11 06:09:28 <JohnSmith333> Development would be decentralized with that made.
1293 2013-04-11 06:10:12 <jolar> When I have this problem at work I can typically get a good idea of what I need to know by standing in front of a whiteboard with someone who knows the codebase for 15-20 minutes
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1304 2013-04-11 06:21:16 <jolar> What does the "C" mean in the code, examples "class CWallet", "class CBlock", etc?
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1307 2013-04-11 06:23:09 <jrmithdobbs> class
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1312 2013-04-11 06:23:49 <jolar> jrmithdobbs: thanks, seems obvious in retrospect
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1315 2013-04-11 06:24:24 <jrmithdobbs> i'm more surprised that you have looked at those bits of code and *that* was your question ;p
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1317 2013-04-11 06:24:41 <jolar> jrmithdobbs: i'm just poking around, not really sure where to begin
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1319 2013-04-11 06:25:03 <jolar> i figure after a few days of alternating between reading about the protocol and staring at the code...
1320 2013-04-11 06:25:10 <jolar> ... i'll start to make some sense of it all
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1362 2013-04-11 06:52:22 <murphey> hi, could someone give me a clue? I use bitcoind daemon, yesterday i sent with "bitcoind sendfrom "" 12PssnteQzf2h8Q9BcB2MGKzN99kFdDFRQ 10" 10 bitcoins, they arrieved but also i payed 0.89 to a second address ... why?
1363 2013-04-11 06:52:29 <murphey> https://blockchain.info/de/tx/0eff7ce6fe3c7dc423da63f3c03afdd1e70b649934b9dedae27089e718a209ea
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1368 2013-04-11 06:53:52 <gmaxwell> murphey: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Change
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1370 2013-04-11 06:55:12 <xaj> Never type del %APPDATA%\Bitcoin\wallet.dat in to your command prompt (start+r) on windows, kids.
1371 2013-04-11 06:55:23 <xaj> jus' sayin'.
1372 2013-04-11 06:56:13 <Luke-Jr> xaj: never type commands you're not supposed to ever type, even if you're saying never to type them
1373 2013-04-11 06:56:38 <xaj> heh, fair point
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1375 2013-04-11 06:57:07 <xaj> i kind of wonder what happens to wallets that vanish from crashed hard drives without backups
1376 2013-04-11 06:57:18 <turboroot> xaj: nothing
1377 2013-04-11 06:57:29 <xaj> is there somewhere, like the underside of a couch cushion that credit vanishes into :)
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1379 2013-04-11 06:58:58 <jolar> what happens to those bitcoins, in permanently lost wallets?
1380 2013-04-11 06:59:02 <jolar> gone forever, right?
1381 2013-04-11 06:59:22 <Luke-Jr> yes
1382 2013-04-11 06:59:28 <Luke-Jr> or until ECDSA is broken anyhow
1383 2013-04-11 06:59:31 <jolar> heh
1384 2013-04-11 06:59:38 <jolar> Luke-Jr, you are bfgminer guy, right?
1385 2013-04-11 06:59:42 dnathe4th has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1386 2013-04-11 06:59:44 <Luke-Jr> yes
1387 2013-04-11 06:59:46 <JohnSmith333> ECDSA is backed by SHA256 at least this implementation
1388 2013-04-11 06:59:48 <turboroot> jolar: theoretically recoverable, but not practical
1389 2013-04-11 06:59:53 <xaj> night all
1390 2013-04-11 06:59:53 <JohnSmith333> It would be hard to crack
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1392 2013-04-11 07:00:04 <murphey> thank you very much gmaxwell!
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1394 2013-04-11 07:00:45 <murphey> googled a lot but didn't find that one :)
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1396 2013-04-11 07:02:09 <jolar> should i keep backing up my wallet.dat file (as my client accumulates more transactions) or is it sufficient to back it up once?
1397 2013-04-11 07:02:18 <jolar> i have not tested this, have not found an answer online either
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1399 2013-04-11 07:02:56 <turboroot> jolar: frequent updates are good
1400 2013-04-11 07:03:19 <turboroot> if you often send transactions, backup frequently
1401 2013-04-11 07:03:39 <jolar> but if i had a year-old wallet.dat, would i still be able to sync up and have all my coin?
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1403 2013-04-11 07:04:35 <jolar> i know different clients have different wallet implementations, right now i'm only interested in bitcoin-qt
1404 2013-04-11 07:04:43 <turboroot> jolar: yes.
1405 2013-04-11 07:04:58 <jolar> ok, thanks, that is what i thought
1406 2013-04-11 07:05:12 <turboroot> jolar: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Key_pool
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1408 2013-04-11 07:06:23 <jolar> interesting. so those keys are used up by transactions?
1409 2013-04-11 07:07:13 <turboroot> for certain activities, such as generating a new address or making change, your key pool will be used
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1412 2013-04-11 07:07:39 <jolar> and keypool is associated with the wallet.dat?
1413 2013-04-11 07:07:43 cyphurnz has joined
1414 2013-04-11 07:07:45 <turboroot> jolar: yes
1415 2013-04-11 07:08:51 <jolar> ok, so what if i save a wallet.dat somewhere (call it wallet.backup), keep generating new addresses and sending/receiving, etc. then lose my up-to-date wallet.dat and replace it with the backup
1416 2013-04-11 07:09:06 <jolar> but i've completely used up the keypool from the original wallet.dat
1417 2013-04-11 07:09:08 <jolar> what happens?
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1422 2013-04-11 07:09:49 <turboroot> you will suffer coin loss not in your backup
1423 2013-04-11 07:10:04 i2pRelay has joined
1424 2013-04-11 07:10:24 <jolar> okay. thanks turboroot
1425 2013-04-11 07:10:30 <jolar> sorry if these are dumb questions
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1427 2013-04-11 07:11:11 <jolar> so what happens to the coin that is lost, then?
1428 2013-04-11 07:11:25 <turboroot> oops, my english isn't good, sorry if you didn't understand that
1429 2013-04-11 07:11:25 <jolar> gone forever, never to be recovered?
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1431 2013-04-11 07:12:26 <turboroot> jolar: yep, practically unrecoverable
1432 2013-04-11 07:15:26 <jolar> hmm. so how often must the wallet be backed up (in terms of # of new address creations, making change, transactions, etc.) to avoid a loss of coin, if restoring from backup is necessary for whatever reason?
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1436 2013-04-11 07:21:30 <turboroot> jolar: i maintain a daily backup for my wallet, although it's unnecessary due to my activity, but you should be fine without a backup if your generation/sending activity does not exceed the key pool size.
1437 2013-04-11 07:22:22 <jolar> turboroot: very much appreciate your answers, thank you! :)
1438 2013-04-11 07:23:38 Thepok has joined
1439 2013-04-11 07:23:42 <turboroot> s/backup/constant backup
1440 2013-04-11 07:23:45 <turboroot> jolar: np
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1442 2013-04-11 07:26:02 <jolar> one last question, then i go to bed: is it safe to copy ~/.bitcoin/wallet.dat for backup purposes while the bitcoin-qt client is running?
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1446 2013-04-11 07:29:29 <digitalmagus> Hi, if the bitcoin block-chain does not contain IP addresses of origin or destination of a transaction, how is this google maps "network propagation" possible? http://blockchain.info/inv/d6b31869beb0c373dc51b05166cd87ce9f8d2ee764cecd273e99453f627c1c64
1447 2013-04-11 07:30:38 <warren> digitalmagus: blockchain.info connects to every node they possibly can in order to guess which node had a block first and where it appeared later.
1448 2013-04-11 07:31:17 <digitalmagus> hmmm, isn't that a risk to the intended anonymity of the currency?
1449 2013-04-11 07:32:00 <warren> perhaps. a bigger concern for privacy is tracking where the tx came from.
1450 2013-04-11 07:32:15 <digitalmagus> Sorry, what's "tx" ?
1451 2013-04-11 07:32:27 <digitalmagus> transaction ?
1452 2013-04-11 07:32:54 <digitalmagus> so this map only identifies the nodes and not the actual clients that participated in the transaction?
1453 2013-04-11 07:33:30 <digitalmagus> warren: ^
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1455 2013-04-11 07:35:06 <warren> digitalmagus: it looks like that map tries to identify where a tx or block originated and how quickly it propagated. If you look on blockchain's ordinary view of a tx you'll see their guess of where the tx came from.
1456 2013-04-11 07:35:25 i2pRelay has joined
1457 2013-04-11 07:35:53 <digitalmagus> warren: so the nodes that connect at an IP level to the clients performing the transactions are recording their IP addresses and then relaying them to blockchain.info ?!
1458 2013-04-11 07:36:20 <digitalmagus> Their guess is based on some kind of geoIP tool right?
1459 2013-04-11 07:36:23 OPrime has joined
1460 2013-04-11 07:36:58 <digitalmagus> Sorry, allow me to reword: blockchain.info uses geoIP to map their aprox location, right?
1461 2013-04-11 07:37:19 <warren> They could record if they wanted to. None of the existing clients do that by default. If you want to better protect your privacy (a little) you could try to block blockchain.info's servers. I'm not sure how to do that (never looked).
1462 2013-04-11 07:38:58 <Tykling> jolar: better to have it not running or use the wallet export function
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1465 2013-04-11 07:39:10 <digitalmagus> warren: Hmm, this sounds like an undesirable 'feature' for the pro-anonymity crowd that should be dropped; as much as it is interesting to study for the academics, or government agencies to track or use for lawful injunctions.
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1467 2013-04-11 07:40:06 <digitalmagus> Also one other newbie question: What exactly is a "node". It's not the same as a miner, or a mining pool, or something else?
1468 2013-04-11 07:40:27 <digitalmagus> How does one become a "node" that connects clients together?
1469 2013-04-11 07:41:09 <Tykling> digitalmagus: a node is just a computer running the bitcoin client, nothing more
1470 2013-04-11 07:41:47 <digitalmagus> So if by default nodes don't collect this IP info... some people are purposely enabling this allowing for the creation of these maps ???
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1475 2013-04-11 07:44:26 <Tykling> digitalmagus: no
1476 2013-04-11 07:44:44 <Tykling> digitalmagus: think of it like this, we have thousands of nodes in the bitcoin network, I'm one and you are one and so on
1477 2013-04-11 07:44:59 <digitalmagus> go on..
1478 2013-04-11 07:45:17 <Tykling> each of us (at least those running the satoshi client) connect to 8 other nodes per default, say you and I happen to connect to eachother by chance
1479 2013-04-11 07:45:28 <digitalmagus> ok..
1480 2013-04-11 07:46:14 <Tykling> then I send some money to someone, and broadcast my transaction to the network, telling everyone I am connected to "hey guys I just sent this amount to this address" and you receive that message because we are connected
1481 2013-04-11 07:46:44 <Tykling> the rest of the network fairly quickly receives the same message, but you and the other 7 of my peers are first
1482 2013-04-11 07:46:50 <Tykling> ok so far ?
1483 2013-04-11 07:46:53 <digitalmagus> right, so then if your client records my IP and reports it to the blockchain, then it's mappable.
1484 2013-04-11 07:47:02 <digitalmagus> yes, so far so good.
1485 2013-04-11 07:47:28 <digitalmagus> sorry blockchain.info
1486 2013-04-11 07:47:54 <Tykling> now, imagine someone makes a client that connects to 1000 nodes instead of 8, or distribute it between a lot of clients - you would be able to use simple timing, the first node(s) to receive the transaction are likely connected to the originator of the transaction
1487 2013-04-11 07:48:09 <Tykling> and thats it really
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1489 2013-04-11 07:49:03 <digitalmagus> Ok, so some people are purposely connecting to ~1000 other nodes, for what specific purpose?
1490 2013-04-11 07:49:18 <Tykling> to map where transactions are coming from
1491 2013-04-11 07:49:38 <digitalmagus> for what purpose ??
1492 2013-04-11 07:49:47 <Tykling> because it can be done
1493 2013-04-11 07:49:55 <digitalmagus> coolness "look what I can do" factor?
1494 2013-04-11 07:50:03 <digitalmagus> I see
1495 2013-04-11 07:50:14 <Tykling> if you get a bunch of btc stolen you might want to see which IP got them ;)
1496 2013-04-11 07:50:21 <digitalmagus> So these alternative clients are able to map aproximately what % of all transactions !?
1497 2013-04-11 07:50:26 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as away!~PiZZaMaN2@unaffiliated/pizzaman2k|PiZZaMaN2K
1498 2013-04-11 07:50:45 <Tykling> to get around this and keep your anonymity you just need to run the client through tor to obfuscate your IP and you are good to go
1499 2013-04-11 07:50:49 <digitalmagus> I see.. so much for no chargebacks.
1500 2013-04-11 07:51:04 <digitalmagus> Tykling: Right that makes sense (re:tor)
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1502 2013-04-11 07:51:16 <warren> digitalmagus: their maps of where things came from are misleading
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1504 2013-04-11 07:51:28 <digitalmagus> warren: because of tor? or .. ?
1505 2013-04-11 07:51:30 <warren> digitalmagus: if you wanted to obscure the origin of a tx it is *really* easy to do.
1506 2013-04-11 07:51:59 <digitalmagus> warren: By what means other than Tor and the other network (I2P or something, I forget the name now) ?
1507 2013-04-11 07:52:05 <Tykling> digitalmagus: regarding the % of transactions they are able to map it depends on the number of nodes they connect to, but with offline transactions and stuff it will never be completely accurate
1508 2013-04-11 07:52:18 <digitalmagus> Tykling: makes sense
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1510 2013-04-11 07:52:29 <digitalmagus> speaking of i2p :)
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1513 2013-04-11 07:53:16 <digitalmagus> Thanks for answering my questions guys.. this makes a bit more sense now. :)))
1514 2013-04-11 07:53:27 <Tykling> :) np
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1517 2013-04-11 07:55:50 <warren> digitalmagus: tx origin obscuring is easy. A bit more difficult for blocks, because if you do "tricks" to hide where a block comes from you increase your chance of orphans (losing income).
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1552 2013-04-11 08:21:20 <qdii> hello
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1572 2013-04-11 08:33:13 <qdii> how can I integrate bitcoin payment within a website. Is there any plugin yet?
1573 2013-04-11 08:34:01 <n1c> Plugin for what?
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1575 2013-04-11 08:34:19 <warren> qdii: if you are asking that type of question, you are probably better off using one of the payment processing companies. but that really isn't on-topic for this channel.
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1581 2013-04-11 08:35:55 <qdii> sorry my X crashed
1582 2013-04-11 08:35:57 <qdii> what did you guys say?
1583 2013-04-11 08:37:30 <muhoo> qdii: use bitpay.com or similar
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1587 2013-04-11 08:41:26 <digitalmagus> Q1: When mining software is installed, is it downloaded from a single peer, or a multitude of peers kind of like bittorrent?
1588 2013-04-11 08:41:45 <n1c> Well, that depends what mining software you download?
1589 2013-04-11 08:42:01 paybitcoin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1590 2013-04-11 08:42:04 <n1c> Some are hosted on github and compiled from source.
1591 2013-04-11 08:42:06 <digitalmagus> Q2: Specifically, I'd like to understand what mechanism is in place to prevent me from downloading a modified /fraudulent blockchain? Is there some kind of CRC check or something else?
1592 2013-04-11 08:42:28 <digitalmagus> n1c: let's say whatever the most common one is.. cgminer?
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1594 2013-04-11 08:42:40 <n1c> cgminer is hosted on github and can be compiled from source.
1595 2013-04-11 08:42:46 <n1c> Or, the creator also hosts some binaries.
1596 2013-04-11 08:42:58 <Arnavion> Do you mean to ask about the mining software itself or are you asking about the work that the miner downloads
1597 2013-04-11 08:43:00 <n1c> and yeah, the client verifies the blockchain.
1598 2013-04-11 08:43:21 <digitalmagus> the work that the miner downloads.. but specificlly the 6GB blockchain
1599 2013-04-11 08:43:29 i2pRelay has joined
1600 2013-04-11 08:43:34 <Arnavion> The miner doesn't deal with the blockchain
1601 2013-04-11 08:43:37 <digitalmagus> when I download it for the first time, what mechanism is in place to ensure I get a REAL copy and not some modified copy ?
1602 2013-04-11 08:43:44 <Arnavion> Only the client does
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1604 2013-04-11 08:44:08 <Arnavion> As for whether you get an authentic blockchain or not:
1605 2013-04-11 08:44:18 <digitalmagus> Oh, ok, then .. but same quesiton. When I download it for the first time with my client, what mechanism is in place ot ensure it's not been tampered with?
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1607 2013-04-11 08:44:38 <n1c> Well, you download it form the network.
1608 2013-04-11 08:44:44 <Arnavion> If it passes verification checks, then your client will believe it's the real one, but as soon as it gets online and starts talking to other peers who tell it otherwise, it will soon switch to the real chain
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1610 2013-04-11 08:45:15 <kadoban> digitalmagus: a modified copy would only validate to the client as valid if someone had put a ton of hashing power into it. the client picks the chain with the most work behind it
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1612 2013-04-11 08:45:52 <digitalmagus> hmmmmm
1613 2013-04-11 08:45:53 <Arnavion> Suppose you start with a fake chain A->B->C while the real chain is A->B->D
1614 2013-04-11 08:46:01 <Arnavion> As soon as the network broadcasts ABDE, your client will switch to it
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1616 2013-04-11 08:46:05 <Arnavion> since it's longer than ABC
1617 2013-04-11 08:46:12 <digitalmagus> how does the client validate the blockchain to be unmodified in the first place if it has nothing valid to compare it with?
1618 2013-04-11 08:46:13 <Arnavion> (simplified explanation)
1619 2013-04-11 08:46:31 <digitalmagus> Oh interesting
1620 2013-04-11 08:46:44 <kadoban> digitalmagus: it doesn't validate it as unmodified, unmodified from what? it validates it as the one that has the most work into it
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1622 2013-04-11 08:47:06 <digitalmagus> Ok, so what prevents me from making a fraudulent chain that's A->B->C->D->E->F>G>H etc etc that's 20GB instead of the existing 6GB ?
1623 2013-04-11 08:47:12 <Arnavion> The assumption is that it is harder for the creator of the fake chain ABC to grow it faster than the network can grow the ABD chain
1624 2013-04-11 08:47:15 <digitalmagus> and causing massive disturbance in the 'force'?
1625 2013-04-11 08:47:36 <kadoban> digitalmagus: nothing, except you'd need more hashing power than the entire rest of the bitcoin world to do that
1626 2013-04-11 08:47:55 <n1c> digitalmagus: to do that you'd need at least 51% of the whole networks' computation power.
1627 2013-04-11 08:48:07 <n1c> Which is unlikely.
1628 2013-04-11 08:48:10 <digitalmagus> But the bitcoin client actually verifies that 6GB worth of data are real hashes ?? Or just the tail end?
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1631 2013-04-11 08:48:39 <kadoban> digitalmagus: it verifies the whole thing
1632 2013-04-11 08:48:40 <Arnavion> Verifying hashes doesn't prove the authnticity of the 6gb file
1633 2013-04-11 08:48:44 <digitalmagus> wow ok
1634 2013-04-11 08:48:51 <Arnavion> It just means the file is valid
1635 2013-04-11 08:48:56 <Arnavion> It could still be fake
1636 2013-04-11 08:49:14 <digitalmagus> kadoban says the whole thing is verified by the client, so which is it ?
1637 2013-04-11 08:49:22 <Arnavion> As I said
1638 2013-04-11 08:49:29 <Arnavion> It's verified to be _valid_
1639 2013-04-11 08:49:42 <Arnavion> Whether it's real or not is not something that can be verified by looking at the file
1640 2013-04-11 08:49:54 <Arnavion> That the client finds out when it connects to other peers
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1643 2013-04-11 08:50:05 <Arnavion> and receives broadcasts of the chain from them
1644 2013-04-11 08:50:13 <digitalmagus> Arnavion: by what mechanism ?
1645 2013-04-11 08:50:31 <Arnavion> By the mechanism as in the example I gave earlier
1646 2013-04-11 08:50:34 <digitalmagus> ok, then what? When it realizes it doesn't align to the data it has in the blockchain? What happens to that client?
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1649 2013-04-11 08:51:03 <Arnavion> It will switch to whichever blockchain is longer
1650 2013-04-11 08:51:05 <digitalmagus> But what if my fake blockchain of real hashes, but not the official global blockchain is 20GB instead of 6GB ?
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1652 2013-04-11 08:51:28 <Arnavion> That is highly unlikely, since that means you have 3 times the hashing power of the whole world
1653 2013-04-11 08:51:28 <n1c> You could only do that if you had >51%
1654 2013-04-11 08:51:29 <n1c> again
1655 2013-04-11 08:51:30 <digitalmagus> you are saying I need massive hashing power to create it in the first place?
1656 2013-04-11 08:51:30 <n1c> unlikely
1657 2013-04-11 08:51:37 <n1c> Yes.
1658 2013-04-11 08:51:39 <Arnavion> Yes, digitalmagus
1659 2013-04-11 08:51:52 <djoot> digitalmagus: it's not the size, it's the work
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1661 2013-04-11 08:51:58 <kadoban> digitalmagus: it has taken every bitcoin miner ever to create the chain in the first place
1662 2013-04-11 08:52:01 <djoot> digitalmagus: that decides the longest chain
1663 2013-04-11 08:52:12 <digitalmagus> Ok, so you can't just take 3x 6GB files and concatonate them together and assume it forms a valid blockchain file because the content contains real hashes from an original blockchain
1664 2013-04-11 08:52:20 <n1c> Nope.
1665 2013-04-11 08:52:23 <digitalmagus> ok got it
1666 2013-04-11 08:52:25 <digitalmagus> thanks :)
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1668 2013-04-11 08:52:53 <Arnavion> That would simply produce a broken file
1669 2013-04-11 08:53:00 <Arnavion> and your client would not accept it
1670 2013-04-11 08:53:04 <digitalmagus> right, and the client would not read it.. right
1671 2013-04-11 08:53:06 <Arnavion> It would fail the verification step
1672 2013-04-11 08:53:12 sega01 has joined
1673 2013-04-11 08:53:15 <digitalmagus> ok this is making more sense. Thanks.
1674 2013-04-11 08:53:55 Bohren has joined
1675 2013-04-11 08:54:01 <digitalmagus> One other question... by what seeding method does a client software find other clients with the blockchain to download it from them? I read originalyl it was IRC, and then DNS.. and now ??
1676 2013-04-11 08:56:42 <n1c> I think there's a few hard-coded IP's
1677 2013-04-11 08:56:54 <petertodd> correct
1678 2013-04-11 08:57:00 <petertodd> a few hundred
1679 2013-04-11 08:57:12 <n1c> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Satoshi_Client_Node_Discovery
1680 2013-04-11 08:57:30 <n1c> Not to be rude digitalmagus, but the wiki is really good.
1681 2013-04-11 08:57:37 <n1c> And most of your questions can be answered by lurking around there a bit.
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1683 2013-04-11 08:59:06 <digitalmagus> Thanks n1c: Not rude at all. :)
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1690 2013-04-11 09:05:38 <Konnichiwa> Quick question: What is the fastest way to calculate the balance of an Address? Does it take so long that a P/L account should be created for fast reference to this data?
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1692 2013-04-11 09:05:55 <n1c> bitcoinaddressbalance.com
1693 2013-04-11 09:06:15 <n1c> Or do you mean something else?
1694 2013-04-11 09:06:40 <Konnichiwa> I mean programatically
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1703 2013-04-11 09:13:16 <n1c> Yeah I figured :)
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1728 2013-04-11 09:34:05 <Konnichiwa> Is there any more documentation on implementing Bitcoin script than is available here? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
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1825 2013-04-11 10:53:47 <turboNOMAD> hello everyone
1826 2013-04-11 10:53:55 <Konnichiwa> I have a question about Transaction Input signature script.
1827 2013-04-11 10:53:58 <turboNOMAD> oh, there are so many people here
1828 2013-04-11 10:54:19 <Konnichiwa> According to the Script documentation there it is supposed to usually contain <sig> and <pubKey>
1829 2013-04-11 10:54:39 <sipa> that depends on the prevout's output script it is trying to satisfy
1830 2013-04-11 10:54:39 <Konnichiwa> However ones I am pulling from the P2P network are only 37 bytes long?
1831 2013-04-11 10:54:58 <sipa> 37 bytes seems quite impossible
1832 2013-04-11 10:55:11 <sipa> as even just a signature is ~72 bytes
1833 2013-04-11 10:55:20 <Konnichiwa> Also, the sig script does not begin with the correct PUSHDATA opcode.
1834 2013-04-11 10:55:32 <sipa> can you paste en example?
1835 2013-04-11 10:55:39 <Konnichiwa> Okay, so looks like incorrect parsing? What is the usual length?
1836 2013-04-11 10:55:57 <Konnichiwa> This is the output transaction script (looks good): 76-A9-14-27-A1-F1-27-71-DE-5C-C3-B7-39-41-66-4B-25-37-C1-53-16-BE-43-88-AC
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1839 2013-04-11 10:56:32 <Konnichiwa> This is the input transaction sig script: 03-F9-84-03-04-00-01-13-8D-12-4D-69-6E-65-64-20-62-79-20-42-54-43-20-47-75-69-6C-64-08-00-6D-CE-89-00-00-0F-AD
1840 2013-04-11 10:57:13 <sipa> i don't think that's an input script
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1842 2013-04-11 10:57:24 <Konnichiwa> Okay, so i'm parsing it wrong.
1843 2013-04-11 10:57:28 <Konnichiwa> Thanks
1844 2013-04-11 10:57:32 <Konnichiwa> Output looks good yes?
1845 2013-04-11 10:57:54 <Konnichiwa> 88-AC at the end?
1846 2013-04-11 10:58:00 <sipa> yes
1847 2013-04-11 10:58:04 <Konnichiwa> Cool.
1848 2013-04-11 10:58:17 i2pRelay has joined
1849 2013-04-11 10:58:20 <Konnichiwa> Thanks for your help.
1850 2013-04-11 10:58:30 <turboNOMAD> i need some info on 0-confirm transactions
1851 2013-04-11 10:58:37 <sipa> depends on whether the pubkey is compressed or not, but you expect an input script of either ~139 bytes or 107 bytes
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1853 2013-04-11 10:58:48 <Konnichiwa> Great, thanks for the info.
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1855 2013-04-11 10:58:52 <turboNOMAD> i just read an article: http://bitcoinmagazine.com/instant-transaction-fraud-an-explanation/
1856 2013-04-11 10:59:03 <sipa> this has an example, Konnichiwa: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification
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1858 2013-04-11 10:59:25 <turboNOMAD> is it true that of several conflicting transactions, one with the highest fee is comfirmed?
1859 2013-04-11 10:59:30 <sipa> no
1860 2013-04-11 10:59:44 <Konnichiwa> Yeah seen that one, thought I had everything correct..
1861 2013-04-11 10:59:45 <turboNOMAD> could you please explain conflict resolution strategy
1862 2013-04-11 10:59:51 <sipa> nodes will simply ignore any transaction that conflicts with that they had already seen
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1864 2013-04-11 10:59:58 <sipa> *haee
1865 2013-04-11 11:00:01 <sipa> **have
1866 2013-04-11 11:00:18 <turboNOMAD> ahh, so the first one gets confirmed, right?
1867 2013-04-11 11:00:40 <turboNOMAD> i just can't find any info on this in the wiki
1868 2013-04-11 11:00:45 <sipa> not realy
1869 2013-04-11 11:01:03 <sipa> nodes on the network cannot be guaranteed to agree about 'first'
1870 2013-04-11 11:01:22 <sipa> it's ultimately miners that pick who wins
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1872 2013-04-11 11:01:36 <sipa> but the network tries to give the first one the highest chance
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1874 2013-04-11 11:02:32 <Konnichiwa> sipa: Looks good now, transaction I plucked to use in the unit test was bad - typical.
1875 2013-04-11 11:02:39 <turboNOMAD> hmmm, this means doublespend is still possible
1876 2013-04-11 11:03:13 <sipa> turboNOMAD: it's always possible, but more confirmations makes it exponentially less likely
1877 2013-04-11 11:03:26 <turboNOMAD> so if I get a website that sells steam keys online, i cannot email them instantly
1878 2013-04-11 11:03:50 <turboNOMAD> and the user does not want to wait for 10 minutes or so
1879 2013-04-11 11:03:58 <turboNOMAD> this is sad :(
1880 2013-04-11 11:04:21 <sipa> that's why you need a payment processor that takes care of that risk
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1883 2013-04-11 11:05:10 <turboNOMAD> ok, thanks
1884 2013-04-11 11:05:23 <turboNOMAD> going to read bitpay's terms of service now
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1890 2013-04-11 11:13:26 <Peacemaker420> can anyone here tell me why i am constantly getting pool work restarts?
1891 2013-04-11 11:13:35 <turboNOMAD> by the way
1892 2013-04-11 11:13:41 <turboNOMAD> as i'm already here
1893 2013-04-11 11:13:53 <turboNOMAD> do you need an experienced c++ dev?
1894 2013-04-11 11:14:02 <turboNOMAD> or bitcoin has enough hands?
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1903 2013-04-11 11:22:34 <joeykrim> turboNOMAD, the github site and the mailing lists are great places to start
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1907 2013-04-11 11:26:25 <Peacemaker420> can anyone here tell me why i am constantly getting pool work restarts?
1908 2013-04-11 11:26:35 <CodeShark> is there a p2p message for querying another node for the hash and height of the highest block of its most difficult chain?
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1910 2013-04-11 11:29:02 <cardpuncher> Hi, I'm having difficulties translating the following sentence: "Set the number of threads to service RPC calls (default: 4)". Could someone explain it please?
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1914 2013-04-11 11:30:43 <n1c> What do you mean by "translating"?
1915 2013-04-11 11:31:05 <CodeShark> shouldn't getblocks allow you to specify a minimum height?
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1917 2013-04-11 11:31:51 <CodeShark> now that BIP0034 has reached the point of no return
1918 2013-04-11 11:32:03 i2pRelay has joined
1919 2013-04-11 11:32:07 <CodeShark> "I want all blocks more recent than height x"
1920 2013-04-11 11:33:23 thelamest has joined
1921 2013-04-11 11:34:08 <cardpuncher> n1c: I'm translating Bitcoin in French and Turkish on Transifex and I just can't get the meaning of this sentence. (What the heck is a service RPC call?)
1922 2013-04-11 11:34:18 <n1c> Ah.
1923 2013-04-11 11:36:56 <sipa> CodeShark: that's not very useful if you don't know whether you have the correct chain before that height
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1925 2013-04-11 11:37:29 <sipa> cardpuncher: RPC is remote procedure call, but it's a technical term
1926 2013-04-11 11:37:41 <sipa> cardpuncher: technical terms don't always make sense when translated
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1931 2013-04-11 11:39:16 <cardpuncher> sipa: Just to make sure, it's about the number of threads that will be allocated for RPC calls which are running as services?
1932 2013-04-11 11:39:16 <CodeShark> sipa: just being able to query for the height and hash of the last block the node knows about (the highest block in the most difficult chain) would be fine
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1934 2013-04-11 11:39:49 <CodeShark> then the client could continue to query for the previous block until it received a prevhash it already knows
1935 2013-04-11 11:40:19 <sipa> CodeShark: why not go the other way around?
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1937 2013-04-11 11:40:30 <sipa> CodeShark: ask from the current block you have forward
1938 2013-04-11 11:40:34 <sipa> CodeShark: as is implemented now
1939 2013-04-11 11:40:52 <sipa> there's no point in knowing the best block if you don't have the ancestors anyway
1940 2013-04-11 11:41:17 <sipa> cardpuncher: it's the number of threads inside bitcoind/bitcoin-qt which will be used to service RPC requests
1941 2013-04-11 11:41:22 <CodeShark> because the most recent blocks are more important for my application, even if the transactions therein are unconfirmed
1942 2013-04-11 11:41:27 <TD> hey sipa
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1944 2013-04-11 11:42:01 <sipa> CodeShark: but they're not unconfirmed, they're completely unchecked (even not PoW-checked) before you have the parents
1945 2013-04-11 11:42:05 <sipa> hi TD
1946 2013-04-11 11:42:19 <TD> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=173217.0
1947 2013-04-11 11:42:21 <TD> nice graph huh
1948 2013-04-11 11:42:36 <cardpuncher> sipa: so "service" is a verb. Now it makes sense.
1949 2013-04-11 11:42:47 <sipa> cardpuncher: oh, yes indeed it is
1950 2013-04-11 11:42:51 <sipa> TD: ha, nice!
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1954 2013-04-11 11:43:19 <sipa> CodeShark: you can use getheaders to go from your current head to the tip, and then getdata the tip if you want the actual block
1955 2013-04-11 11:44:11 <CodeShark> oh, right
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1957 2013-04-11 11:45:47 <CodeShark> but that is still not the most efficient approach
1958 2013-04-11 11:45:56 <CodeShark> I have a thin client that connects to a trusted node
1959 2013-04-11 11:46:07 <sipa> then use RPC instead of P2P?
1960 2013-04-11 11:46:08 <CodeShark> and it needs to get all the blocks since it last disconnected
1961 2013-04-11 11:46:19 <CodeShark> and the latest block is the most important of all
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1963 2013-04-11 11:46:28 <CodeShark> yeah, I've been using the RPC
1964 2013-04-11 11:46:37 <sipa> getheaders is _really_ fast, or at least should be
1965 2013-04-11 11:46:49 <CodeShark> just thought it would have been nice to eliminate the dependencies I have on the non-p2p network stuff
1966 2013-04-11 11:46:50 <sipa> it's just 81 bytes per block
1967 2013-04-11 11:46:56 <sipa> and served from RAM
1968 2013-04-11 11:47:09 <CodeShark> this operation is relatively infrequent, so getheaders might be the way to go
1969 2013-04-11 11:47:37 <TD> what is your app doing?
1970 2013-04-11 11:47:56 <CodeShark> it provides a realtime streaming service and message queue for other applications
1971 2013-04-11 11:48:00 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1972 2013-04-11 11:48:17 <TD> ok. i'd do it all using the p2p protocol.
1973 2013-04-11 11:48:32 <CodeShark> but the p2p protocol is too low-level for the kinds of apps that this app services
1974 2013-04-11 11:48:50 <TD> i mean, i'd use a library like (plug) bitcoinj on top of the p2p protocol
1975 2013-04-11 11:48:53 i2pRelay has joined
1976 2013-04-11 11:49:14 <CodeShark> I do have a library on top of the p2p protocol I've written in C++ - but most of my clients use PHP or some other stupid shit
1977 2013-04-11 11:49:32 <CodeShark> and I need an easy way to push messages to them
1978 2013-04-11 11:49:58 <CodeShark> and bitcoind lacks a streaming API
1979 2013-04-11 11:50:17 <TD> the streaming API is the p2p protocol. you say it's too low level, but it's not safe to use bitcoin unless you're capable of handling things like re-orgs
1980 2013-04-11 11:50:18 <CodeShark> other than the p2p protocol itself
1981 2013-04-11 11:50:39 cyphurnz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1982 2013-04-11 11:50:53 <CodeShark> TD: everyone accepts transactions after a certain number of confirmation counts that may lie anywhere between 0 and infinity
1983 2013-04-11 11:51:15 <CodeShark> you set it higher to reduce the reorg risk
1984 2013-04-11 11:51:33 <TD> but in practice your clients won't do that, will they.
1985 2013-04-11 11:51:44 <TD> also there can be larger than expected re-orgs during trouble like the chain split
1986 2013-04-11 11:51:54 <CodeShark> in practice my clients need to be able to credit customers after a finite amount of time and process transactions
1987 2013-04-11 11:51:59 Guest4613 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1988 2013-04-11 11:52:20 <CodeShark> when there's a fork, there can be an ability to temporarily stop transaction processing
1989 2013-04-11 11:52:20 <TD> exactly. so your clients will end up lowering the amount of time they want to wait until they end up on a fork and get stuck
1990 2013-04-11 11:52:21 wallet42 has joined
1991 2013-04-11 11:52:29 <TD> there are forks all the time
1992 2013-04-11 11:52:31 <wallet42> is there a maxlength to coinbase?
1993 2013-04-11 11:52:32 <TD> (short ones)_
1994 2013-04-11 11:52:44 <CodeShark> when there's a fork that exceeds the confirmation min
1995 2013-04-11 11:52:50 <TD> it's really a lot better for clients that need that level of simplicity to use a payment processor like bitpay that takes on double spending risk themselves.
1996 2013-04-11 11:52:51 <CodeShark> exceeds or equals
1997 2013-04-11 11:53:02 <CodeShark> TD: but then there goes my paycheckl
1998 2013-04-11 11:53:12 <CodeShark> I also need to make money :p
1999 2013-04-11 11:53:43 <CodeShark> and I have a very nice, simple way for my customers to be alerted of transactions which only depends on running one or more trusted instances of a full node
2000 2013-04-11 11:54:00 <TD> then you should do it right and make sure your clients aren't writing apps that fail to implement the bitcoin protocol correctly. ignoring re-orgs WILL result in your clients losing money, period, end of story. you might say "well it's not my fault because i told them to wait six blocks" or whatever, but eventually they will lower the threshold and get stuck.
2001 2013-04-11 11:54:14 <CodeShark> my clients don't use the bitcoin protocol directly, silly
2002 2013-04-11 11:54:22 <CodeShark> they just want to know when a transaction has received n confirmations
2003 2013-04-11 11:54:40 <TD> exactly.
2004 2013-04-11 11:54:48 <CodeShark> and if there's a reorg > n that doesn't include their transaction, tough cookies
2005 2013-04-11 11:54:51 jMyles has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2006 2013-04-11 11:55:04 <TD> so one of your clients won't understand that the number of transactions can go down as well as up
2007 2013-04-11 11:55:17 <TD> and then they'll be vulnerable, get exploited, and people will blame bitcoin instead of your code.
2008 2013-04-11 11:55:26 <TD> if you want to be a payment processor and compete with bitpay, that's great
2009 2013-04-11 11:55:28 <TD> you can do that
2010 2013-04-11 11:55:36 <TD> then you take on the double spend risk so your clients don't have to think about it
2011 2013-04-11 11:55:41 <sipa> you can expose it as a ledger interface: append-only, but both credits and debits
2012 2013-04-11 11:55:49 <CodeShark> yes, sipa
2013 2013-04-11 11:55:52 <sipa> and transactions can get reverted in it
2014 2013-04-11 11:55:52 <CodeShark> that's exactly what I'm doing
2015 2013-04-11 11:56:03 <TD> i'm not sure you are
2016 2013-04-11 11:56:04 <CodeShark> I'm also sending notifications when transactions lose confirmations
2017 2013-04-11 11:56:18 <CodeShark> i.e. a reorg
2018 2013-04-11 11:56:24 rdymac has joined
2019 2013-04-11 11:56:25 <TD> so you *are* exposing your clients to re-orgs
2020 2013-04-11 11:56:26 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021 2013-04-11 11:56:36 <TD> and if a tx gets double spent? do you send them a message then?
2022 2013-04-11 11:56:37 <CodeShark> reorgs are a fact of life with bitcoin
2023 2013-04-11 11:56:40 Hawkwood has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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2027 2013-04-11 11:57:18 <TD> if your code does inform users of double spends, re-orgs, etc, then no problem. then you've got something that's basically the same as what bitcoinj provides via the TransactionConfidence API.
2028 2013-04-11 11:57:19 i2pRelay has joined
2029 2013-04-11 11:57:24 <Ad0> how do exchanges keep the bitcoins that are deposited?
2030 2013-04-11 11:57:24 taha has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2031 2013-04-11 11:57:31 <TD> but if you're trying to implement it on top of bitcoind it's hard, because bitcoind doesn't really "do" double spends
2032 2013-04-11 11:57:38 <TD> Ad0: very carefully
2033 2013-04-11 11:57:45 <Ad0> hehe
2034 2013-04-11 11:57:55 <Ad0> but are htey kept in a wallet per user?
2035 2013-04-11 11:58:02 <CodeShark> my clients don't really care about the reason why a transaction lost confirmations - only that it did
2036 2013-04-11 11:58:03 <cardpuncher> Thanks for explaining sipa. French and Turkish translations are now at 100% :)
2037 2013-04-11 11:58:04 <Ad0> or is the count in a DB
2038 2013-04-11 11:58:04 <TD> no
2039 2013-04-11 11:58:10 <TD> they use shared wallets.
2040 2013-04-11 11:58:27 <Ad0> so one huge wallet with all the money in and a DB to keep track of their abalances?
2041 2013-04-11 11:58:28 <CodeShark> moreover, if there's a reorg but their transaction keeps the same number of confirmations they don't care
2042 2013-04-11 11:58:55 <CodeShark> the only major case that needs to be handled is that of a serious fork
2043 2013-04-11 11:59:01 <TD> CodeShark: and double spends
2044 2013-04-11 11:59:03 <Ad0> every user get their own deposit address though
2045 2013-04-11 11:59:23 <TD> CodeShark: you inform your client of a transaction, and then a re-org happens and it ends up conflicting with a tx in the new best chain. confirms drops to zero and will never change again.
2046 2013-04-11 11:59:34 <TD> that's a different case from "zero confirmations and likely to obtain one soon"
2047 2013-04-11 11:59:35 <CodeShark> a doublespend will result in either their confirmation count dropping to 0 or staying unchanged
2048 2013-04-11 11:59:46 <CodeShark> if it drops to 0, I inform them
2049 2013-04-11 11:59:47 hjkl22 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2050 2013-04-11 12:00:03 <TD> anyway, you clearly understanding these issues which is good. just make sure you understand how clients can cut themselves using your api.
2051 2013-04-11 12:01:19 jdnavarro has joined
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2054 2013-04-11 12:01:50 vigilyn2 has joined
2055 2013-04-11 12:02:19 <CodeShark> TD: my approach is way superior to the bitcoind wallet - and many merchants rely on the bitcoind wallet
2056 2013-04-11 12:02:27 <CodeShark> as far as tracking incoming payments
2057 2013-04-11 12:02:31 <TD> yeah, i know. and that scares me :)
2058 2013-04-11 12:02:32 stalled has joined
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2060 2013-04-11 12:05:02 <sanchaz> is truecrypt using AES enough security?
2061 2013-04-11 12:05:44 i2pRelay has joined
2062 2013-04-11 12:06:21 <CodeShark> it would be even better to allow for negative confirmation counts for doublespends, TD - but yeah, that would require maintaining my own mempool
2063 2013-04-11 12:06:46 GlitchNZ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2064 2013-04-11 12:06:53 cardpuncher has left ()
2065 2013-04-11 12:07:06 <TD> yeah. the big issue we're going to have at some point is merchants who are selling things for zero confirmed transactions and then can't handle the various kinds of double spends that can take place
2066 2013-04-11 12:07:09 <CodeShark> because it's not just the target transaction in question - but all its dependencies
2067 2013-04-11 12:07:14 <TD> yeah
2068 2013-04-11 12:08:23 o2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2069 2013-04-11 12:08:57 ligar has joined
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2071 2013-04-11 12:09:45 jMyles has joined
2072 2013-04-11 12:10:54 <sanchaz> TD: are double spends such a big issue. I mean how many people actually attempt double spends, and let's not forget as many non tech users join in, I doubt they will even know how to double spend
2073 2013-04-11 12:11:01 <sipa> CodeShark: you could occasionally call getblocktemplate... if transactions end up in there, they'ee more likely to be confirmed soob
2074 2013-04-11 12:11:27 <TD> hardly anyone attempts it today, but the economy is very small and there are no pre-canned tools for performing it
2075 2013-04-11 12:11:30 <mhanne> ?
2076 2013-04-11 12:11:42 <TD> as the system grows, the difficulty of pulling off various kinds of attacks will go down and i think we'll start to see it happen
2077 2013-04-11 12:11:58 <TD> sipa: good idea but does it work if you aren't actually generating? getmininginfo doesn't
2078 2013-04-11 12:12:12 o2 has joined
2079 2013-04-11 12:12:19 <sipa> sanchaz: are alarm systems such a big issue. I mean how many people actually attempt to break into houses, and let's not forget as many non burglar people move to town, I doubt the will even know how to lockpick
2080 2013-04-11 12:12:38 <CodeShark> sipa: confirmation ETA isn't that important for my application
2081 2013-04-11 12:12:41 <sipa> TD: getblocktemplate is mining
2082 2013-04-11 12:13:02 <TD> right
2083 2013-04-11 12:13:10 <CodeShark> I'm also strongly urging my clients to not accept unconfirmed transactions from untrusted parties
2084 2013-04-11 12:13:16 <sanchaz> sipa: point taken
2085 2013-04-11 12:13:17 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2086 2013-04-11 12:14:05 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2087 2013-04-11 12:14:12 i2pRelay has joined
2088 2013-04-11 12:14:32 <CodeShark> for many types of purchases, a delay of even an hour or more before confirming isn't a deal killer - but the customers would like to see the site update to indicate the confirmation count as close to realtime as possible
2089 2013-04-11 12:14:40 RoboTeddy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2090 2013-04-11 12:14:41 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2091 2013-04-11 12:14:49 <CodeShark> and using the bitcoind wallet, that means polling the crap out of it
2092 2013-04-11 12:14:56 normanrichards has joined
2093 2013-04-11 12:15:59 skinnkavaj has joined
2094 2013-04-11 12:16:06 <CodeShark> and it also means the bitcoind instance needs the receiving addresses (so unless you use my pull request 2121, it would have to know the private keys)
2095 2013-04-11 12:16:39 <Konnichiwa> quick question, the Public Key (pubKey) on a TxIn should be how long?
2096 2013-04-11 12:16:55 mercerist has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2097 2013-04-11 12:16:57 <sipa> 33 or 65 bytrs
2098 2013-04-11 12:17:22 <sipa> and start with 0x02 or 0x03 if 33 bytes, and 0x04 otherwise
2099 2013-04-11 12:17:23 <Konnichiwa> Okay. I have 33 bytes but my HASH160 is not coming up with the same value that is presenting in the Script.
2100 2013-04-11 12:17:24 <CodeShark> what about multisig?
2101 2013-04-11 12:17:52 <CodeShark> nvm, each public key is 33 or 65
2102 2013-04-11 12:17:57 <Konnichiwa> Here is the public key:
2103 2013-04-11 12:17:57 <Konnichiwa> 02-FF-FA-A4-57-D3-CF-54-EE-E6-98-26-51-2E-BC-45-5B-D6-32-55-E3-0A-34-C1-49-78-28-66-01-82-85-6B-B3
2104 2013-04-11 12:18:04 <Konnichiwa> So looks okay then.. wonder why my hash is wrong.
2105 2013-04-11 12:18:34 <sipa> looks right
2106 2013-04-11 12:19:13 <Konnichiwa> OP_HASH160 on that has results in a different hash than the one in the script :(
2107 2013-04-11 12:19:14 jsfsn has joined
2108 2013-04-11 12:19:36 <wallet42> wtf? testnet difficulty changed to 1
2109 2013-04-11 12:19:40 <CodeShark> are you sure you have the endianness correct, Konnichiwa
2110 2013-04-11 12:19:51 <Konnichiwa> No, not considered it
2111 2013-04-11 12:19:53 <wallet42> but blockcount % 2016 =! 0
2112 2013-04-11 12:20:28 skinnkavaj has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2113 2013-04-11 12:20:54 cyphurnz has joined
2114 2013-04-11 12:21:20 czaanja has joined
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2116 2013-04-11 12:22:08 <Konnichiwa> "The stacks hold byte vectors. Byte vectors are interpreted as little-endian variable-length integers with the most significant bit determining the sign of the integer."
2117 2013-04-11 12:22:24 <Konnichiwa> Little endian is usual so should be no difficulty there..
2118 2013-04-11 12:22:34 i2pRelay has joined
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2121 2013-04-11 12:23:36 skinnkavaj has joined
2122 2013-04-11 12:23:53 <sipa> wallet42: known bug
2123 2013-04-11 12:24:25 <CodeShark> isn't testnet difficulty supposed to reset to the lowest possible if no block is found in 20 minutes?
2124 2013-04-11 12:24:29 <wallet42> how come they clients accept blocks as valid?
2125 2013-04-11 12:24:40 <wallet42> aah oke
2126 2013-04-11 12:24:44 <wallet42> makes sense
2127 2013-04-11 12:26:28 <sipa> oh i'm confused
2128 2013-04-11 12:26:54 K1NN6 has joined
2129 2013-04-11 12:27:40 <sipa> yes testnet had a special rule that allows a difficulty-1 block if there has not been a block in 20 minutes
2130 2013-04-11 12:28:13 <sipa> however, there is a known bug that if this happens at the 2016-block-transition, difficulty gets reset to 1 permanently
2131 2013-04-11 12:30:08 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2132 2013-04-11 12:30:26 <CodeShark> is someone running a bot to make sure this doesn't happen? :p
2133 2013-04-11 12:31:00 i2pRelay has joined
2134 2013-04-11 12:31:11 blaap has joined
2135 2013-04-11 12:31:20 <CodeShark> moreover, seems like it should be a relatively simple fix
2136 2013-04-11 12:31:53 <sipa> yes, the fix is trivial but means a hard fork for testnet
2137 2013-04-11 12:32:13 <sipa> so better to just fix it for the next testnet, whenever that is
2138 2013-04-11 12:32:31 Bohren has joined
2139 2013-04-11 12:32:58 <JyZyXEL> sipa: this bug has not happened yet?
2140 2013-04-11 12:34:13 cuda has joined
2141 2013-04-11 12:36:30 pgvoorhees has joined
2142 2013-04-11 12:37:01 <sipa> JyZyXEL: it has
2143 2013-04-11 12:37:07 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2144 2013-04-11 12:37:27 <JyZyXEL> sipa: so testnet difficulty is permanently at 1 for now?
2145 2013-04-11 12:37:35 <wallet42> no its back at 23
2146 2013-04-11 12:37:51 <sipa> JyZyXEL: no no, not forever
2147 2013-04-11 12:38:05 <sipa> JyZyXEL: it's still being corrected every 2016 blocks
2148 2013-04-11 12:38:13 daybyter has joined
2149 2013-04-11 12:38:16 <wallet42> but if there was no new block with the 2016 target
2150 2013-04-11 12:38:23 <sipa> but the special testnet rule was intended to just allow a single block exception
2151 2013-04-11 12:38:26 <wallet42> for 2* expected time
2152 2013-04-11 12:38:32 <wallet42> then you can submit a block with diff 1
2153 2013-04-11 12:38:33 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2154 2013-04-11 12:38:41 <JyZyXEL> sipa: oh i see what you mean :)
2155 2013-04-11 12:39:27 i2pRelay has joined
2156 2013-04-11 12:40:22 <wallet42> testnet startet 2011?
2157 2013-04-11 12:40:37 <wallet42> no test driven development for 2 years? :D
2158 2013-04-11 12:40:49 <sipa> ?
2159 2013-04-11 12:40:58 <sipa> testnet is not unit tests
2160 2013-04-11 12:41:32 <wallet42> but its intended to test blockchain behaviour?
2161 2013-04-11 12:41:33 <sipa> it's a separatebnetwork to experiment
2162 2013-04-11 12:41:39 <sipa> *separate
2163 2013-04-11 12:41:41 <sipa> yes
2164 2013-04-11 12:41:56 <sipa> and it's already the 3rd testnet
2165 2013-04-11 12:42:10 normanrichards has quit ()
2166 2013-04-11 12:42:17 <sipa> s/test/imitate/
2167 2013-04-11 12:42:18 <wallet42> oh
2168 2013-04-11 12:42:29 <wallet42> i take all back
2169 2013-04-11 12:46:59 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
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2171 2013-04-11 12:47:15 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (Changing host)
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2174 2013-04-11 12:47:55 <CodeShark> I guess my position regarding the bitcoin API is that there's a happy middleground, that isn't as low-level as the p2p protocol itself...but isn't as dumbed down as the RPC
2175 2013-04-11 12:48:36 <CodeShark> you still need the low-level p2p for full verification
2176 2013-04-11 12:48:50 macboz has joined
2177 2013-04-11 12:49:02 Bohren has joined
2178 2013-04-11 12:49:18 <CodeShark> but you shouldn't need to be placing a bunch of HTTP calls or system execs every minute to get notified of updates of important events
2179 2013-04-11 12:49:22 qdii has quit (Quit: qdii)
2180 2013-04-11 12:50:38 ligar has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2181 2013-04-11 12:50:55 <CodeShark> and there are a heck of a lot more developers developing at the level I'm talking about than at the p2p socket level
2182 2013-04-11 12:51:06 <CodeShark> we shouldn't force them to be using the dumbed down RPC
2183 2013-04-11 12:51:15 <CodeShark> or to have to rely on third party processors like bitpay
2184 2013-04-11 12:51:52 <Konnichiwa> CodeShark: Thats what I am working on.
2185 2013-04-11 12:52:02 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2186 2013-04-11 12:52:05 ligar has joined
2187 2013-04-11 12:52:06 <CodeShark> heh, nice - me too :)
2188 2013-04-11 12:53:16 <Konnichiwa> Question: How can multiple Output transactions that are operating on one Input transaction have different pubKeyHashes embedded in them?
2189 2013-04-11 12:53:39 skinnkavaj has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2190 2013-04-11 12:54:07 <Konnichiwa> For example on the protocol page: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#tx
2191 2013-04-11 12:54:20 RedEmerald has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2192 2013-04-11 12:55:03 cultav1x has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2193 2013-04-11 12:55:23 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2194 2013-04-11 12:55:25 <CodeShark> first of all, there's no such thing as an "o
2195 2013-04-11 12:55:29 <CodeShark> first of all, there's no such thing as an "Output transaction"
2196 2013-04-11 12:55:38 <CodeShark> a transaction has one or more inputs and one or more outputs
2197 2013-04-11 12:55:51 <Konnichiwa> Sorry, yes.
2198 2013-04-11 12:55:55 cultav1x has joined
2199 2013-04-11 12:56:00 <CodeShark> second of all, a transaction's outputs don't operate on the transaction's inputs
2200 2013-04-11 12:56:17 i2pRelay has joined
2201 2013-04-11 12:56:23 <CodeShark> rather, a transaction's inputs operate on the outputs of a previous transaction
2202 2013-04-11 12:56:27 Casimir1904 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2203 2013-04-11 12:56:27 <Konnichiwa> It looks that way based on the scripts?
2204 2013-04-11 12:56:54 <CodeShark> the outputs of a transaction are independent of the inputs
2205 2013-04-11 12:57:08 <CodeShark> but the inputs depend on the outputs of another prior transaction
2206 2013-04-11 12:57:09 <Konnichiwa> I'm trying to execute the scripts in the outputs, your saying that I do not use the signatures from the inputs to validate them?
2207 2013-04-11 12:57:39 <CodeShark> you sign the outputs of the previous transaction
2208 2013-04-11 12:58:02 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2209 2013-04-11 12:58:17 <CodeShark> the inputs of a transaction do not validate the same transaction's outputs
2210 2013-04-11 12:58:48 <Konnichiwa> Okay, so to run the scripts on the outputs I have to create a new input with the sigs that result in a True output from the output script.
2211 2013-04-11 12:58:49 <CodeShark> for a better explanation of how OP_CHECKSIG works, I recommend etotheipi's diagrams
2212 2013-04-11 12:58:57 <Konnichiwa> https://en.bitcoin.it/w/images/en/7/70/Bitcoin_OpCheckSig_InDetail.png?
2213 2013-04-11 12:59:08 <CodeShark> yes, that's the one
2214 2013-04-11 12:59:10 Gabit has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2215 2013-04-11 12:59:34 <Konnichiwa> Okay, I'm still at HASH160 because my hashes don't match, but I suppose thats to be expected if I'm not passing the correct data.
2216 2013-04-11 13:01:10 <Konnichiwa> Obviously missing something here...
2217 2013-04-11 13:01:49 <Konnichiwa> Surely we are supposed to be able to grab a transaction that comes in (tx) and check if it is valid?
2218 2013-04-11 13:02:34 <CodeShark> you can only check it is valid if you can connect its inputs to other transactions that are known to be valid
2219 2013-04-11 13:02:58 flug has joined
2220 2013-04-11 13:03:27 <Konnichiwa> So I need the whole chain?
2221 2013-04-11 13:03:37 <CodeShark> at least assuming all the basic message structure and types are ok
2222 2013-04-11 13:03:43 <Konnichiwa> Or trust the last transaction I verified.
2223 2013-04-11 13:03:47 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2225 2013-04-11 13:03:51 theorb has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2226 2013-04-11 13:04:23 <CodeShark> to fully verify a transaction, you need the whole chain - to verify merely with a pretty high degree of confidence, you could get by with less than the whole chain
2227 2013-04-11 13:04:40 i2pRelay has joined
2228 2013-04-11 13:04:45 <Konnichiwa> Okay, understood.
2229 2013-04-11 13:04:45 qdii has joined
2230 2013-04-11 13:04:49 <Konnichiwa> Thanks for your help.
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2234 2013-04-11 13:07:24 <Konnichiwa> So this also means that I need to keep a copy of all Transactions that are about my addresses (at least Outputs to my addresses) so that I can send those coins on later.
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2238 2013-04-11 13:11:12 <CodeShark> you only need to store the outputs, really
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2244 2013-04-11 13:11:36 <sipa> CodeShark: you don't need the whole chain to validate a transaction, just the UTXO set
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2247 2013-04-11 13:11:51 <CodeShark> sipa: you need the whole chain to construct a UTXO set from scratch :)
2248 2013-04-11 13:11:54 <Konnichiwa> I see, so these websites such as mtgox save the outputs to determine the balance of your account.
2249 2013-04-11 13:12:00 <sipa> (which can only be constructed using the full chain if you don't want to trust anyone, but that doesn't mean you need to _kee_ the whole chain)
2250 2013-04-11 13:12:06 <sipa> *keep
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2252 2013-04-11 13:12:24 <CodeShark> ah, you're talking about storage
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2254 2013-04-11 13:12:51 <sipa> indeed; i didn't read the whole backlog, maybe that wasn't relevant to the discussion
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2256 2013-04-11 13:13:19 <Konnichiwa> I'm saying I need to keep the outputs to determine account balance. rather than keep a ledger
2257 2013-04-11 13:13:27 <CodeShark> yes, Konnichiwa
2258 2013-04-11 13:13:32 <CodeShark> bitcoin has no ledger concept
2259 2013-04-11 13:13:33 <Konnichiwa> Okay, thanks,
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2261 2013-04-11 13:13:48 <CodeShark> balances are a higher level abstraction
2262 2013-04-11 13:13:57 <Konnichiwa> The inputs/outputs are like credits/debits, except you cannot part spend an output.
2263 2013-04-11 13:14:05 <CodeShark> yes
2264 2013-04-11 13:14:33 <Konnichiwa> I was just wondering whether to use the BTC data to store this information to keep my own ledger.
2265 2013-04-11 13:15:03 <CodeShark> balance = sum of all unspent tx outputs spendable using your keys
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2267 2013-04-11 13:15:18 <Konnichiwa> sure
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2269 2013-04-11 13:15:48 <CodeShark> you only need to store the tx hash and output index of the output along with the script
2270 2013-04-11 13:15:50 <CodeShark> and amount
2271 2013-04-11 13:15:58 <CodeShark> you don't need to store the full transaction
2272 2013-04-11 13:16:25 <CodeShark> in order to spend it
2273 2013-04-11 13:17:01 <Konnichiwa> Okay I understand, I'll keep that in mind.
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2279 2013-04-11 13:26:27 <djoot> if i have a signature generated with bitcoind signmessage ADDR MSG, can I check extract the ADDR from the hash somehow when I verify it, or do I need to know which ADDR the MSG is signed with?
2280 2013-04-11 13:26:49 <djoot> s/check//
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2296 2013-04-11 13:33:13 <TD> gmaxwell: thanks for becoming a moderator of the dev section
2297 2013-04-11 13:33:18 <TD> sorely needed
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2307 2013-04-11 13:42:18 <[psy]> i was wondering: what happens if i mine a block with a dificulty that is too low? i assume clients would reject it?
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2312 2013-04-11 13:43:03 <[psy]> and is there still a hardcoded irc server for bootstrapping in the code?
2313 2013-04-11 13:43:20 <TD> correct and the irc server was recently removed
2314 2013-04-11 13:43:25 <Konnichiwa> Aparrently its done via hardcoded IPs now
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2321 2013-04-11 13:44:56 <[psy]> yeah i saw the table Konnichiwa
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2324 2013-04-11 13:45:44 <[psy]> what if i mine a block thats far in the future? should all clients have a correct systemtime to check this? whats the maximum difference?
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2329 2013-04-11 13:47:08 <TD> it's done via DNS seeds
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2331 2013-04-11 13:47:15 <TD> [psy]: about two hours
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2334 2013-04-11 13:47:42 <[psy]> so if i mine a block thats 2 hours in the future, nobody else can mine a block for the next 2 hours?
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2348 2013-04-11 13:50:45 <wallet42> i think timestamps are not checked
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2350 2013-04-11 13:51:02 <wallet42> but your block will only be valid if its whiting the 2 hour range
2351 2013-04-11 13:51:56 <wallet42> block A may have a timestamp after block B even if Block B references block A as prev hash
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2386 2013-04-11 14:11:11 <helo> wallet42: each timestamp must be higher than the average (or median?) of the last 11 block timestamps iirc
2387 2013-04-11 14:11:58 <helo> yes, median.
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2444 2013-04-11 14:43:45 <Jere_Jones> I was working on calling the json-rpc from js in the browser yesterday. Wonder of wonders, it didn't work. Cross origin security and all.
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2448 2013-04-11 14:44:19 <Jere_Jones> My next step is to try and patch bitcoind to respond to a request for crossdomain.xml.
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2453 2013-04-11 14:45:08 <gdasghewyh> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$2299.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
2454 2013-04-11 14:45:08 <gdasghewyh> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$2299.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
2455 2013-04-11 14:45:08 <gdasghewyh> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$2299.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
2456 2013-04-11 14:45:09 <gdasghewyh> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$2299.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
2457 2013-04-11 14:45:09 <gdasghewyh> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$2299.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
2458 2013-04-11 14:45:10 <gdasghewyh> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$2299.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
2459 2013-04-11 14:45:10 <gdasghewyh> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$2299.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
2460 2013-04-11 14:45:10 <gdasghewyh> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$2299.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
2461 2013-04-11 14:45:11 <gdasghewyh> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$2299.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
2462 2013-04-11 14:45:11 <gdasghewyh> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$2299.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
2463 2013-04-11 14:45:11 <gdasghewyh> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$2299.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
2464 2013-04-11 14:45:12 <gdasghewyh> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$2299.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
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2466 2013-04-11 14:45:12 <gdasghewyh> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$2299.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
2467 2013-04-11 14:45:12 <gdasghewyh> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$2299.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
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2486 2013-04-11 14:52:23 <t7> sipa do you run any bitcoin websites/services ?
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2488 2013-04-11 14:52:40 <[psy]> thx wallet42 and helo
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2512 2013-04-11 15:02:03 <sipa> t7: http://bitcoin.sipa.be
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2514 2013-04-11 15:02:51 <graingert> sipa: hash rate has not gone down then :p
2515 2013-04-11 15:03:19 <t7> February ASICs?
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2522 2013-04-11 15:07:43 <lupine> would you guys take a patch to the RPC to add *_int64 attributes next to every attribute that returns money as a floating-point number ?
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2524 2013-04-11 15:09:26 <t7> i have subscribed to your blogs rss feed, now you have to write more posts in the future
2525 2013-04-11 15:10:00 <sipa> t7: mine? :D
2526 2013-04-11 15:10:02 <sipa> lol
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2528 2013-04-11 15:11:02 <t7> :)
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2530 2013-04-11 15:12:33 <sipa> lupine: personally, i'd rather redesign the RPC interface pretty much from scratch (clear separation between network/wallet/blockdb queries, consistent names and arguments, ...)
2531 2013-04-11 15:12:43 <jgarzik> lupine: frankly, I wish everything was in satoshis
2532 2013-04-11 15:12:48 <jgarzik> rather than decimal numbers
2533 2013-04-11 15:12:50 <lupine> that's all well and good, but it won't be backward-compatible ^^
2534 2013-04-11 15:13:08 <lupine> you can sneak in an "add extra attribute to everything" in a minor release, but a new API is a major release
2535 2013-04-11 15:13:08 <_dr> jgarzik: unhandy
2536 2013-04-11 15:13:20 <_dr> you're bound to miss or put an extra zero when entering values ;)
2537 2013-04-11 15:13:32 <sipa> lupine: oh you'd need to keep the old RPC for compatibility of course
2538 2013-04-11 15:13:42 <sipa> lupine: and use a different URL for the new one, for example
2539 2013-04-11 15:14:01 <alaricsp> _dr: Only machines use the API - humans can use something friendlier, and the machine deals with the representation!
2540 2013-04-11 15:14:16 <lupine> mm, but by then you've had several months where the _int64 attributes could have been present in the old api but weren't
2541 2013-04-11 15:14:26 <_dr> alaricsp: didn't read the backlog, my bad!
2542 2013-04-11 15:14:42 <sipa> jgarzik: most JSON libraries still parse numbers as floating point no matter what, so you'd need have values represented as strings anyway
2543 2013-04-11 15:14:54 <sipa> jgarzik: at that point, i don't care whether it's satoshis or bitcoins
2544 2013-04-11 15:15:24 <TD> down with json
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2546 2013-04-11 15:16:00 <t7> its easier to read a string of hex/decimal numbers rather than a string of decimals with a point in it
2547 2013-04-11 15:16:10 i2pRelay has joined
2548 2013-04-11 15:16:21 <sipa> lupine: we've already had years where a sane representation could have been used but weren't
2549 2013-04-11 15:16:24 systemParanoid has joined
2550 2013-04-11 15:17:13 <lupine> indeed. you should be ashamed, and looking to fix it as soon as humanely possible :p
2551 2013-04-11 15:17:50 <jgarzik> TD: :)
2552 2013-04-11 15:18:00 <sipa> let's use XML!!!
2553 2013-04-11 15:18:01 <graingert> sipa: maybe REST instead of RPC?
2554 2013-04-11 15:18:05 <jgarzik> sipa: not necessarily
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2556 2013-04-11 15:18:22 vigilyn2 is now known as vigilyn
2557 2013-04-11 15:18:24 <jgarzik> sipa: but some JSON libs do process non-decimal numbers as integers, possibly 32-bit
2558 2013-04-11 15:18:29 vigilyn has quit (Changing host)
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2561 2013-04-11 15:18:35 <graingert> DELETE http://localhost:8080/addr/someAddr
2562 2013-04-11 15:18:41 <t7> should have redefined & reimplemented in coq a long time ago, relying on a bitcoind to read the old blockchain and then saying the old blockchain dies in 2 years
2563 2013-04-11 15:19:00 zrad has joined
2564 2013-04-11 15:19:02 <jgarzik> I'm sure TD would prefer Protocol Buffers :)
2565 2013-04-11 15:19:14 <lupine> if you want to go all resty, I can strongly recommend HAL+JSON
2566 2013-04-11 15:19:16 <sipa> t7: feel free to fund a group of 5 PhD with training in formal languages for a year to do that
2567 2013-04-11 15:19:32 <t7> the bitcoin foundation can fund it
2568 2013-04-11 15:19:41 <gavinandresen> no, it can't.
2569 2013-04-11 15:19:49 Odyessus has joined
2570 2013-04-11 15:19:54 <lupine> mind you, "number" appears to be completely undefined (and so implementation-dependent) in JSON
2571 2013-04-11 15:20:05 <sipa> lupine: indeed, that's why i suggest using strings
2572 2013-04-11 15:20:16 <sipa> *IF* you're fixing it
2573 2013-04-11 15:20:35 <sipa> but if you break backward compatibility anyway, fix everything
2574 2013-04-11 15:20:50 <lupine> the patch I suggested submitting would not break backward compatibility :)
2575 2013-04-11 15:20:55 <alaricsp> Protocol Buffers are said to be pretty good
2576 2013-04-11 15:21:01 <sipa> lupine: it would add more cruft to maintain
2577 2013-04-11 15:21:23 <lupine> certainly, which is not a notable cost if you plan on throwing away all the cruft in that area in 6 months to a year
2578 2013-04-11 15:21:34 <alaricsp> I've not looked into Protocol Buffers in enough detail to really recommend them myself, though!
2579 2013-04-11 15:21:47 <lupine> we use protobuf at work. can't complain particularly
2580 2013-04-11 15:21:48 <gavinandresen> if we start arguing over the representation of numbers in the RPC interface again I'm going to â¦. well, I don't know what I'll do.
2581 2013-04-11 15:22:02 <sipa> protobufs are very efficient
2582 2013-04-11 15:22:10 <Ry4an> protocol buffers have a better replacement coming. Lemme dig it up.
2583 2013-04-11 15:22:12 <sipa> and have consistent encodings
2584 2013-04-11 15:22:48 btc2510 has joined
2585 2013-04-11 15:22:52 <sipa> downside: they're not directly human readable (though tools can convert from/to ascii representation)
2586 2013-04-11 15:23:10 <btc2510> hey guys¨
2587 2013-04-11 15:23:15 <btc2510> whats cooking
2588 2013-04-11 15:23:17 <sipa> gavinandresen: haha, if i recall correctly, that was actually the first discussion i've had with you (and others) on this channel ever :)
2589 2013-04-11 15:23:39 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2590 2013-04-11 15:24:11 i2pRelay has joined
2591 2013-04-11 15:24:24 <btc2510> ##phpfreaks on irc.freenode.net
2592 2013-04-11 15:24:27 <btc2510> ops srry
2593 2013-04-11 15:25:31 ColinT has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2594 2013-04-11 15:26:12 <alaricsp> But yes, there's probably more interesting things to do than fiddle with the RPC API, which currently already works!
2595 2013-04-11 15:26:50 Descry has joined
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2597 2013-04-11 15:27:22 <Ry4an> http://kentonv.github.io/capnproto/ <-- protocol buffers replacement done by the original author (no longer at google) with significant improvements
2598 2013-04-11 15:27:41 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2602 2013-04-11 15:28:37 Michail1_ is now known as Michail1
2603 2013-04-11 15:29:26 <gmaxwell> t7: I disagree strongly, while I think that a COQ implementation would be very good to have, making the definition of the software something really understandable to only a few hundred people would be bad for transparency.
2604 2013-04-11 15:29:41 MaybeJustNothing has joined
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2607 2013-04-11 15:30:17 <gmaxwell> (having the coq reimplementation just to discover design bugs or for miners to use as part of multi-implementation voting would be great, however)
2608 2013-04-11 15:31:06 workman has joined
2609 2013-04-11 15:31:15 <Belxjander> COQ??
2610 2013-04-11 15:31:54 sfraise has joined
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2615 2013-04-11 15:32:39 <abadr> sounds interesting, i just jumped in. what are you talking about implementing in coq?
2616 2013-04-11 15:33:03 <sipa> we're not
2617 2013-04-11 15:33:12 <sipa> t7 is complaining that we haven't bothered to do that
2618 2013-04-11 15:33:30 someonesomewhere has left ()
2619 2013-04-11 15:33:44 <t7> not complaining :)
2620 2013-04-11 15:33:53 rowit has joined
2621 2013-04-11 15:34:17 someonesomewhere has joined
2622 2013-04-11 15:34:46 <abadr> t7: how about haskell? :}
2623 2013-04-11 15:35:05 ProfMac has joined
2624 2013-04-11 15:35:16 <t7> abadr, it might catch a bug or two but not like coq
2625 2013-04-11 15:35:31 Odyessus has joined
2626 2013-04-11 15:35:32 <abadr> haven't used coq, i didn't know you could write real programs in it
2627 2013-04-11 15:35:47 <sipa> abadr: there is a haskell implementation of bitcoin
2628 2013-04-11 15:35:51 <sipa> (purecoin)
2629 2013-04-11 15:36:12 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
2630 2013-04-11 15:36:14 <abadr> ah ty
2631 2013-04-11 15:36:33 <sipa> and the author actually did discover several weirdnesses/unknown properties of bitcoin's validation rules by doing that
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2637 2013-04-11 15:41:48 <TD> t7: i think the lowest hanging fruit in that direction would to be start running coverity over the bitcoin codebase
2638 2013-04-11 15:41:56 <TD> they have a free hosted program for open source projects, iirc. or they used to.
2639 2013-04-11 15:42:02 MobPhone has joined
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2643 2013-04-11 15:45:57 <MC1984> bitcoin spinner operates like electrum right
2644 2013-04-11 15:46:06 <t7> im gonna make my own crypto currency in coq so i can be an early adaptor :3
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2646 2013-04-11 15:47:13 <TD> MC1984: yes
2647 2013-04-11 15:47:17 <TD> MC1984: except the server isn't open source
2648 2013-04-11 15:47:31 <sipa> does bitcoin spinner validate headers?
2649 2013-04-11 15:47:36 <MC1984> that doesnt seem desirable
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2651 2013-04-11 15:47:46 <TD> sipa: it's like blockchain app. it just signs transactions given to it by the server.
2652 2013-04-11 15:47:52 <TD> sipa: everything else is server side
2653 2013-04-11 15:47:56 <MC1984> i gather its quite popular though
2654 2013-04-11 15:48:04 <sipa> TD: right, so it's weaker than electrum in security assumptions
2655 2013-04-11 15:48:13 <TD> indeed. because until today it was the only android client that did stuff "instantly"
2656 2013-04-11 15:48:16 i2pRelay has joined
2657 2013-04-11 15:48:19 <sipa> well, stronger assumptions, weaker security
2658 2013-04-11 15:48:55 <TD> sipa: i suppose so. bear in mind electrum gets its headers from exactly one source. in theory the owner of that server could mine a difficulty-1 chain of the same height as the real chain and give it to electrum users. the client would look the same, users could not tell the difference. the transactions would appear at the same places, etc
2659 2013-04-11 15:49:02 DarkGhost` has joined
2660 2013-04-11 15:49:08 <TD> it doesn't talk to the p2p network
2661 2013-04-11 15:49:18 <sipa> TD: agree
2662 2013-04-11 15:49:30 <sfraise> I wonder what you could build to help stabilize bitcoins so they don't swing so wildly
2663 2013-04-11 15:49:35 <sipa> TD: but it's still fundamentally better than not verifying headers at all
2664 2013-04-11 15:49:43 a_meteorite has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2665 2013-04-11 15:49:44 <MC1984> what are the use cass for things like spinner and electrum now given how good bitcoin wallet has become?
2666 2013-04-11 15:49:48 <TD> sfraise: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Ripple_currency_exchange
2667 2013-04-11 15:49:51 <t7> sfraise, mandate common sense lessons in schools
2668 2013-04-11 15:49:57 jciri has joined
2669 2013-04-11 15:50:08 <sfraise> t7: lol
2670 2013-04-11 15:50:08 <TD> MC1984: well, Electrum has some features that bitcoinj still lacks. notably, deterministic wallets and the pgp words thing
2671 2013-04-11 15:50:26 <MC1984> ah yes
2672 2013-04-11 15:50:32 a_meteorite has joined
2673 2013-04-11 15:50:37 <TD> MC1984: for spinner, i am hoping there are no longer any cases in which it's preferable. i suspect though, that some people have come up with convoluted use cases that involve importing private keys a lot
2674 2013-04-11 15:51:06 <TD> that's still slower than on spinner and i don't plan to fix that. for all normal users, i feel Goonies app is a better choice and i hope spinner fades away over time. jan isn't really upgrading it anymore anyway.
2675 2013-04-11 15:51:07 keystroke has joined
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2677 2013-04-11 15:51:09 <MC1984> congrats on releasing wallet v3 also
2678 2013-04-11 15:51:17 <MC1984> you and goonie
2679 2013-04-11 15:51:20 <TD> thanks. took us two years but we got there in the end :)
2680 2013-04-11 15:51:31 <Ry4an> I've not yet updated, but it sounds like a great step up.
2681 2013-04-11 15:51:35 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2682 2013-04-11 15:51:36 <TD> matija mazi has written some code implementing deterministic wallets for bitcoinj
2683 2013-04-11 15:51:47 rottenchris has joined
2684 2013-04-11 15:51:49 <lupine> so at the moment, if I ask bitcoin-qt to send half a satoshi to someone, it will actually try to send a full satoshi?
2685 2013-04-11 15:51:52 robocoin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2686 2013-04-11 15:51:52 <TD> Ry4an: for existing users it doesn't make a big difference. but for new users/fresh installs, it gets started much faster. well v3 is more stable also.
2687 2013-04-11 15:52:01 sydna has joined
2688 2013-04-11 15:52:06 <sipa> lupine: i have no idea how you'd even ask that in the first place
2689 2013-04-11 15:52:06 <MC1984> i could see bitcoin wallet becoming the most important bitcoin client of them all
2690 2013-04-11 15:52:13 <sipa> lupine: there are just 8 decimals to fill in
2691 2013-04-11 15:52:15 <MC1984> if the future is on mobile as they say
2692 2013-04-11 15:52:25 <TD> unfortunately he didn't submit it formally as a patch/pull req because he thought the det wallets spec was not finalized
2693 2013-04-11 15:52:29 <lupine> sipa, the wiki page says that numbers passed in are rounded
2694 2013-04-11 15:52:38 <TD> i've asked him to reconsider that. once hd wallets are merged, i think we'll be able to match electrums feature set
2695 2013-04-11 15:52:45 <TD> MC1984: mobile/tablets, maybe
2696 2013-04-11 15:52:49 <lupine> so if I pass in a number that resolves to 0.5 satoshis, it will be rounded to 1 satoshi, assuming the docs are correct
2697 2013-04-11 15:52:49 jciri has quit (Client Quit)
2698 2013-04-11 15:52:49 <TD> MC1984: i'm a little skeptical but we'll see.
2699 2013-04-11 15:52:58 rottenchris has left ()
2700 2013-04-11 15:52:58 <sipa> TD: i've been monitoring the blocks my public nodes serves, by the way
2701 2013-04-11 15:53:07 <TD> sipa: oh yes? what did you find?
2702 2013-04-11 15:53:19 <sipa> TD: some interesting (but worrying) result: less than 3% of blocks requested is from the last 2016
2703 2013-04-11 15:53:20 <lupine> I might try it tonight and see what the code does
2704 2013-04-11 15:53:36 <lupine> the right thing to do would be 400 GTFO, of course)
2705 2013-04-11 15:53:58 <TD> sipa: well, i suppose every time a new node is brought up it will bias the results a fair bit.
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2707 2013-04-11 15:54:10 <TD> sipa: right now i bet a ton of users are installing bitcoin-qt for the first time and then discovering it's gonna take forever to sync and giving up
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2710 2013-04-11 15:55:15 <TD> sipa: what proportion of user agents do you see?
2711 2013-04-11 15:55:20 <sydna> TD: anecdotally, I can confirm that there's a lot of net users connecting to me
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2713 2013-04-11 15:55:22 <TD> sipa: bitcoin wallet users should now only really download the head of the chain
2714 2013-04-11 15:55:23 <sipa> TD: haven't looked at that
2715 2013-04-11 15:55:24 <sydna> *new users
2716 2013-04-11 15:55:37 <sipa> TD: but i do monitor filtered block vs full block
2717 2013-04-11 15:55:41 <TD> sydna: Luke-Jr has a graph of chain heights based on a crawl he's doing
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2722 2013-04-11 15:55:46 <TD> it's amazing - most nodes are behind :(
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2724 2013-04-11 15:55:53 <MC1984> why is it bad that not many are pulling from the last 2016 blocks?
2725 2013-04-11 15:56:01 jsfsn has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2726 2013-04-11 15:56:01 <TD> sipa: well, that's almost as good, given AFAIK nothing except bitcoinj does bloom filtering
2727 2013-04-11 15:56:14 <sydna> TD: oh wow. I didn't expect that. I'm still pumping out blocks to tonnes of users.
2728 2013-04-11 15:56:16 i2pRelay has joined
2729 2013-04-11 15:56:24 <TD> yeah
2730 2013-04-11 15:56:26 <TD> exactly
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2732 2013-04-11 15:56:34 <sipa> MC1984: because that means that for example a strategy like by default pruning until 2016 blocks ago would have a lot of impact
2733 2013-04-11 15:56:36 <TD> TONS of new users in the past few weeks, most of which probably won't continue running bitcoin-qt
2734 2013-04-11 15:56:42 <TD> a big waste of bandwidth unfortunately. but it cannot be helped.
2735 2013-04-11 15:56:46 <Goonie_> is it really that unexpected? I expect Bitcoin number of users may have doubled over the last weeks
2736 2013-04-11 15:56:59 <TD> multibit has a testing release out but it's not quite released yet. more testing would help (hint)
2737 2013-04-11 15:56:59 <sydna> enough new users that I had to turn down my max connections anyway
2738 2013-04-11 15:57:01 <sipa> Goonie_: right, maybe it's a bad moment to do these statistics
2739 2013-04-11 15:57:29 <MC1984> so you think many of the people who have qt are not running it for weeks at a time?
2740 2013-04-11 15:57:48 <TD> gavinandresen: by the way, not sure if you saw. i talked to theymos about the dev forum moderation policy and gmaxwell is now a moderator, so he can move the worst troll/abuse threads out of the way.
2741 2013-04-11 15:58:16 <TD> MC1984: you see bitcoin on tv. go to bitcoin.org. download the app. run it. think "wtf is this it's killing my hard disk and bandwidth". turn it off.
2742 2013-04-11 15:58:18 <MC1984> im going to raise my max connections to 24 to hlp out and hope my ram can take it
2743 2013-04-11 15:58:28 <TD> right now i imagine 90% of all new users are just using mt gox as a bank
2744 2013-04-11 15:58:31 <TD> or blockchain.info
2745 2013-04-11 15:58:39 <MC1984> yes :(
2746 2013-04-11 15:58:48 <TD> MC1984: with the latest code from git i was able to handle 200+ connections with around 350mb ram usage
2747 2013-04-11 15:58:49 <sydna> TD: more likely they'll notice their computers turning into toasters and give up
2748 2013-04-11 15:58:57 <TD> sydna: that too
2749 2013-04-11 15:59:05 Peacemaker420 has joined
2750 2013-04-11 15:59:18 <MC1984> SPV segue is what QT needs
2751 2013-04-11 15:59:25 <MC1984> imo
2752 2013-04-11 15:59:58 <MC1984> so that theres a chance of keeping all the nodes we pick up after each large publitcity
2753 2013-04-11 16:00:00 <TD> realistically, unless some code hero appears out of nowhere like saivann did for the website, that isn't going to happen and our easiest path forward is to beat multibit into shape
2754 2013-04-11 16:00:13 <TD> MC1984: it might/likely will be years until we get this much publicity again.
2755 2013-04-11 16:00:29 <TD> so unfortunately we mostly blew it, from a "getting users onto client side wallets" perspective. c'est la vie.
2756 2013-04-11 16:00:38 <TD> people can migrate out of mtgox once the software is ready for them
2757 2013-04-11 16:00:54 <MC1984> might be too late by then
2758 2013-04-11 16:00:54 <sydna> unless mtgox makes a mistake in the mean time.
2759 2013-04-11 16:01:08 <MC1984> people are getting the "cloud mentality"
2760 2013-04-11 16:01:12 * TD shrugs
2761 2013-04-11 16:01:17 <TD> bitcoin is a long term endevour
2762 2013-04-11 16:01:26 parker__ has joined
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2764 2013-04-11 16:01:31 <sipa> TD: i'm not sure everyone sees it that way :)
2765 2013-04-11 16:01:32 <TD> besides, everyone already starts out with a "cloud mentality"
2766 2013-04-11 16:01:36 <sipa> (speculators in particular)
2767 2013-04-11 16:01:38 <TD> because they are coming from the banking world
2768 2013-04-11 16:01:45 <MC1984> true
2769 2013-04-11 16:01:45 sud3n has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2770 2013-04-11 16:01:54 <TD> sipa: sure, of course
2771 2013-04-11 16:02:00 <jchp> IMO the best way is a dedicated device
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2775 2013-04-11 16:02:26 testnode9 has joined
2776 2013-04-11 16:02:48 <sydna> pretty much anything could be used as a dedicated wallet if you wanted.
2777 2013-04-11 16:02:57 andytoshi has joined
2778 2013-04-11 16:02:58 jsfsn has joined
2779 2013-04-11 16:03:08 <TD> jchp: trezor guys are working on that
2780 2013-04-11 16:03:14 * TD is looking forward to seeing what they have at the conference
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2790 2013-04-11 16:10:06 <sfraise> are there any open source bitcoin buy/sell scripts already out there?
2791 2013-04-11 16:10:27 <HM> you mean an exchange ?
2792 2013-04-11 16:10:31 <HM> or a way to access one
2793 2013-04-11 16:10:47 <sfraise> no something like a silk road style buy/sell site
2794 2013-04-11 16:10:54 <sfraise> I just want to see how it's built
2795 2013-04-11 16:11:12 <sfraise> preferably javascript/php
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2798 2013-04-11 16:12:29 <jsfsn> "scripts"
2799 2013-04-11 16:12:54 <sfraise> I mean the actual transaction script
2800 2013-04-11 16:13:10 <jsfsn> sfraise: You can use json-rpc to talk to bitcoind
2801 2013-04-11 16:13:20 <jsfsn> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_(JSON-RPC)
2802 2013-04-11 16:13:44 <sfraise> are they taking a percentage of the transaction or are they charging a different way?
2803 2013-04-11 16:14:02 <HM> you want to build an exchange
2804 2013-04-11 16:14:03 lian_ has joined
2805 2013-04-11 16:14:12 <HM> or you want to take payments in bitcoin?
2806 2013-04-11 16:14:12 <jsfsn> sfraise: What do you mean?
2807 2013-04-11 16:14:40 <jsfsn> sfraise: bitcoind is the bitcoin daemon, you decide what fees to give to the transaction
2808 2013-04-11 16:14:48 BCBot` has joined
2809 2013-04-11 16:15:02 <jsfsn> sfraise: You can also use blockchain.info or some other API-vendor
2810 2013-04-11 16:15:06 <sfraise> I guess my real question is if seller lists a product, then buy buys product, buyer enters payment info and hits "send", can site owner take a percentage of the transaction directly
2811 2013-04-11 16:15:16 <sydna> well, yes.
2812 2013-04-11 16:15:33 lian_ has quit (Client Quit)
2813 2013-04-11 16:15:47 <sydna> before setting up a site, you might want to read the bitcoin wiki a bit, learn how transactions work and what they are
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2816 2013-04-11 16:16:08 <sfraise> so basically you set in the code 99% goes to seller's wallet, 1% goes to site's wallet
2817 2013-04-11 16:16:36 BCBot` has joined
2818 2013-04-11 16:16:46 <sydna> not really. the user would send to a generated address, and you'd then do a TX from there to the servers and sellers wallets.
2819 2013-04-11 16:17:13 <sfraise> I've looked through it a little but I haven't really determined if you can actually do it directly that way
2820 2013-04-11 16:17:19 <sfraise> ic, so that answers my question then
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2822 2013-04-11 16:17:30 <sfraise> you take the full transaction, then pay the seller
2823 2013-04-11 16:17:34 ProfMac_ has joined
2824 2013-04-11 16:17:36 <sydna> yes.
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2827 2013-04-11 16:17:54 <sfraise> my issue with that is transaction fees would be doubled
2828 2013-04-11 16:18:07 <sfraise> would then not? assuming a transaction fee was set
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2830 2013-04-11 16:18:16 <sydna> it would be.
2831 2013-04-11 16:18:18 <sfraise> "they"
2832 2013-04-11 16:18:34 <sydna> the transaction fees are hardly an issue though
2833 2013-04-11 16:18:36 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
2834 2013-04-11 16:18:38 <new299> yay, someone cleared the ban on my ISP. Thank you ops.
2835 2013-04-11 16:18:42 <sydna> 0.0005BTC is next to nothing.
2836 2013-04-11 16:18:44 czaanja has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2837 2013-04-11 16:18:48 <sfraise> so... back to my original question, how do we do it on the fly and limit the trans fee to 1
2838 2013-04-11 16:18:54 <sydna> you don't.
2839 2013-04-11 16:19:01 <jsfsn> sydna: Espcially after today (;
2840 2013-04-11 16:19:11 <sfraise> hardly an issue means it's still an issue
2841 2013-04-11 16:19:31 <sfraise> right now maybe it's not a big issue, but pressing forward it seems like it's a bottle neck
2842 2013-04-11 16:19:34 <jsfsn> sfraise: Read the Bitcoin whitepaper and the wiki
2843 2013-04-11 16:19:37 <sydna> there's no way of doing it as you want, unless you asked them to send you a fee, and then a separate TX to the seller.
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2849 2013-04-11 16:19:57 <sydna> go and understand how TX work, that would answer this question.
2850 2013-04-11 16:20:04 <sfraise> well actually maybe that's the way to go jsfsn
2851 2013-04-11 16:20:11 <jsfsn> You basiclly want to route payments with a fee, which is quite trivial
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2853 2013-04-11 16:20:25 <sfraise> instead of taking the full amount and then paying the seller, maybe you just split the transaction into two
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2855 2013-04-11 16:20:39 <serp> your site would have a wallet. which would provide an address... the person originally paying would have to tx fee to send to your site. then your site would pay 1 to send to the seller.
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2858 2013-04-11 16:20:59 <sydna> serp: yeah, but he wants to do it in a single transaction, which isn't possible.
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2861 2013-04-11 16:21:35 <sfraise> I'd also prefer for the actual payment not to hit my hands ever, just the fee I would charge for the service
2862 2013-04-11 16:21:47 <serp> not possible
2863 2013-04-11 16:22:07 <jsfsn> Well, it is
2864 2013-04-11 16:22:08 <serp> you could have it go directly to the sellers then ask them for fees
2865 2013-04-11 16:22:17 <jsfsn> He can monitor the sellers address as well as his own
2866 2013-04-11 16:22:21 <sfraise> through a json string couldn't you just split a transaction into two?
2867 2013-04-11 16:22:21 <MC1984> you cant skim fees of a txn unless youre a miner
2868 2013-04-11 16:22:25 <jsfsn> Ask the buyer to both pay the seller and his address
2869 2013-04-11 16:22:30 <sipa> certainly possible, but it meams 1) exposing the receiver address to the sender, and trust the sender to not just leave out your fee
2870 2013-04-11 16:22:31 cultav1x has joined
2871 2013-04-11 16:22:43 <serp> the problem is the customer is the one doing the transaction.. not your site
2872 2013-04-11 16:22:47 <sydna> jsfsn: then they'd still be paying twoTX fees, which was the objection in the first place
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2875 2013-04-11 16:23:08 <jsfsn> sydna: Indeed, two transactions has to happen
2876 2013-04-11 16:23:10 <sfraise> that's what I'm saying jsfsn, but the buyer wouldn't need to actually know he's paying two, you could do it in the code couldn't you?
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2880 2013-04-11 16:23:19 <sydna> no.
2881 2013-04-11 16:23:20 <jsfsn> sfraise: no
2882 2013-04-11 16:23:21 <sipa> no
2883 2013-04-11 16:23:58 FredEE has joined
2884 2013-04-11 16:24:24 <jsfsn> Two tx-fees are inevitable
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2892 2013-04-11 16:27:56 <sfraise> maybe I'm wrong, but say you have an ajax pay button where you gather the seller's wallet, buyer's wallet, and amount to pay, which sends to a php file where it splits the transaction down before actually doing the transaction where 99% is sent to seller's wallet and the other 1% is sent to site owner's wallet, you're saying it's impossible
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2897 2013-04-11 16:28:33 <jsfsn> sfraise: I'm not even close to understanding the logic there
2898 2013-04-11 16:28:47 <jsfsn> sfraise: That is obviously not possible, how could it be?
2899 2013-04-11 16:28:56 terry_ has joined
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2901 2013-04-11 16:29:18 <jsfsn> sfraise: Again, go read the wiki
2902 2013-04-11 16:29:38 Guest28077 has joined
2903 2013-04-11 16:30:48 <jsfsn> Actually, it could obviously be done if you had the sellers wallet, but I know you did not mean that
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2905 2013-04-11 16:31:49 <pjorrit_> this sounds like a nightmare waiting to happen
2906 2013-04-11 16:31:57 <jsfsn> Indeed
2907 2013-04-11 16:32:20 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2908 2013-04-11 16:32:23 <jsfsn> I hope your not planning to implement this your self, sfraise?
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2915 2013-04-11 16:33:59 <sydna> bitcoin and PHP is a scary combination anyway
2916 2013-04-11 16:35:15 <helo> smoking and gas leak repair
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2918 2013-04-11 16:35:59 <sydna> eyedrops and sulphuric acid in similar bottles
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2933 2013-04-11 16:42:52 <abadr> sipa: do you have a reference for the discrepancies discovered while writing the haskell client? original website for it seems to be down
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2936 2013-04-11 16:43:59 <MC1984> is there a help/suppot chan yet o is this still it
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2941 2013-04-11 16:44:47 topace is now known as 2!~kvirc@ottawa-hs-69-20-234-37.s-ip.magma.ca|topace
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2945 2013-04-11 16:45:06 <midnightmagic> MC1984: There are topic-specific #bitcoin* channels depending on what you want to talk about.
2946 2013-04-11 16:45:16 holorga_ has joined
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2948 2013-04-11 16:46:06 <MC1984> im scared to /list on freenode :(
2949 2013-04-11 16:46:42 <wumpus> MC1984: #bitcoin-tech
2950 2013-04-11 16:47:16 <midnightmagic> MC1984: I think you can use wildcards? not sure though.
2951 2013-04-11 16:47:33 fpgaminer has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2955 2013-04-11 16:48:15 <midnightmagic> MC1984: My mistake. You can just list based on certain parameters like number of users..
2956 2013-04-11 16:48:36 fpgaminer has joined
2957 2013-04-11 16:48:40 <sipa> abadr: the guy who wrote it discovered the ability to use compressed public keys, key recovery, found the problem with duplicate transactions (see BIP30 and http://r6.ca/blog/20120206T005236Z.html), found the origins of the now-considered-useless OP_CODESEPARATOR, ... i wonder if i forget something)
2958 2013-04-11 16:48:58 <sipa> wait, not key recovery
2959 2013-04-11 16:49:02 <TD> yeah, but i think that's not really to do with haskell and more the fact that he was a genius
2960 2013-04-11 16:49:05 <TD> i mean, the two may be related
2961 2013-04-11 16:49:06 pyrret has joined
2962 2013-04-11 16:49:13 <TD> but haskell isn't a magical way to find any of those things
2963 2013-04-11 16:49:15 <pyrret> any news about bitstamp..?
2964 2013-04-11 16:49:26 <gonffen> midnightmagic: fyi that works on some networks like rizon
2965 2013-04-11 16:50:14 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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2967 2013-04-11 16:50:22 <gmaxwell> TD: I have 8 projects in coverity's open source stuff, it's a huge pain to get them to add a project, and so far it's never actually been useful for any of mineâ at least not over the available alternative. (Okay, it found a bug in one of the speex tests) ... but if people think it would be useful I can request an account for Bitcoin.
2968 2013-04-11 16:50:32 <TD> oh
2969 2013-04-11 16:50:37 <TD> we used to use it on wine
2970 2013-04-11 16:50:39 <TD> it found quite a lot of things
2971 2013-04-11 16:50:43 <TD> but that was a huge codebase
2972 2013-04-11 16:50:53 <sipa> TD: i think it's partly related to the fact that Haskell is just *different* and required a different implementation approach than simply line-per-line transliterating the imperative satoshi code
2973 2013-04-11 16:50:54 <TD> of course, a lot of FPs too. i doubt bitcoin is particularly buggy in the ways it can detect
2974 2013-04-11 16:50:59 <midnightmagic> gonffen: Yeah and I think there are network services sometimes that will do that too.
2975 2013-04-11 16:51:07 <gmaxwell> (It's substantially similar to clang static analysis but with better false positive surpression and a good database for tracking long standing issues)
2976 2013-04-11 16:51:28 <TD> sipa: maybe. i guess it depends ... i don't see how functional vs imperative helps you discover compressed public keys. i mean, that is just how closely you examine your ecdsa implementation isn't it
2977 2013-04-11 16:51:46 <sipa> TD: it did mean he was forced to have a better understanding of the system
2978 2013-04-11 16:51:52 <TD> maybe so
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2983 2013-04-11 16:52:53 <TD> who is spamming testnet with transactions that lack inputs?
2984 2013-04-11 16:53:26 bitcoinbulletin has joined
2985 2013-04-11 16:53:27 <gmaxwell> There is either an attack or a bug. It's not clear what it is.
2986 2013-04-11 16:53:32 <sipa> gmaxwell: didn't you discover that it was BitcoinJ code relaying these 0-input transactions? or has that been cleared up?
2987 2013-04-11 16:53:41 wallet42 has joined
2988 2013-04-11 16:53:54 <TD> bitcoinj doesn't accept inbound connections nor does it relay
2989 2013-04-11 16:53:57 <TD> so it can't be that
2990 2013-04-11 16:54:04 <TD> unless someone heavily modded it of course
2991 2013-04-11 16:54:05 <gmaxwell> There was some evidence of that.
2992 2013-04-11 16:54:23 <gmaxwell> what was that txn id again?
2993 2013-04-11 16:54:25 <TD> it might announce them, i guess, if somebody managed to get one into their wallet
2994 2013-04-11 16:54:29 <gonffen> midnightmagic: just wanted to make sure you knew you weren't losing it ;)
2995 2013-04-11 16:54:36 <sipa> TD: right
2996 2013-04-11 16:55:05 sud3n has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2997 2013-04-11 16:55:15 <gmaxwell> TD: the txn in question doesn't just have no inputs the whole thing is: (looks it up)
2998 2013-04-11 16:55:45 xenesis_ has joined
2999 2013-04-11 16:55:52 <gmaxwell> 01000000000000000000
3000 2013-04-11 16:56:07 <sipa> txid d21633ba23f70118185227be58a63527675641ad37967e2aa461559f577aec43
3001 2013-04-11 16:56:26 <TD> huh
3002 2013-04-11 16:56:31 <gmaxwell> http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/issues/attachmentText?id=350&aid=3500001000&name=coinbase-tx-2.log&token=wsD6ZTnKn_8yeY_TLh0FDNORzHk%3A1363719034057
3003 2013-04-11 16:56:31 <sipa> 03:32:09< gmaxwell> http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/issues/attachmentText?id=350&aid=3500001000&name=coinbase-tx-2.log&token=wsD6ZTnKn_8yeY_TLh0FDNORzHk%3A1363719034057
3004 2013-04-11 16:56:34 <sipa> 03:32:18< gmaxwell> I cite: W/System.err(26246): 6842310 [New I/O worker #13] INFO com.google.bitcoin.core.MemoryPool - [95.27.142.162]:8333: Announced new transaction [1] d21633ba23f70118185227be58a63527675641ad37967e2aa461559f577aec43
3005 2013-04-11 16:57:06 <TD> that means the peer announced it
3006 2013-04-11 16:57:09 <TD> not that the client announced it
3007 2013-04-11 16:57:27 <TD> specifically that the IP 95.27.142.162 announced it and we downloaded it
3008 2013-04-11 16:57:34 <gmaxwell> oh. darn.
3009 2013-04-11 16:57:46 <gmaxwell> Then back to knowing nothing.
3010 2013-04-11 16:58:02 <TD> it's not very clear, i agree. It should probably say Peer announced new transaction. i should whack some static tx.verify() calls into more places so peers that send us garbage are disconnected earlier.
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3015 2013-04-11 16:58:42 <sipa> at least we know whom not to blame anymore :)
3016 2013-04-11 16:58:58 <abadr> sipa: why does he call it Midas Money?
3017 2013-04-11 16:59:07 Darin_ has joined
3018 2013-04-11 16:59:27 <sipa> abadr: good question :)
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3020 2013-04-11 16:59:37 <abadr> o_O
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3023 2013-04-11 17:00:46 <TD> i found out in the last few days why talking heads on rolling TV news never seem to know anything
3024 2013-04-11 17:01:01 <TD> they try and find people who can make it to a studio at the time they go live, with about 6-8 hours notice
3025 2013-04-11 17:01:08 <TD> (that's when they are busy trying to book someone)
3026 2013-04-11 17:01:37 <TD> where "make it to a studio" eliminates anyone not in the USA or London, for the particular network in question. needless to say, this is a good way to find people who aren't actually involved with whatever is being reported on.
3027 2013-04-11 17:02:32 <Plornt> Anyone got any ideas on some bitcoin services that have been requested to be made?
3028 2013-04-11 17:02:32 Brizzo has joined
3029 2013-04-11 17:02:42 <TD> Plornt: there are tons of things you could do, if you're looking for work
3030 2013-04-11 17:03:06 tg has joined
3031 2013-04-11 17:03:28 <Plornt> Hmm any ideas on what there is to do or a list of things to do >.<?
3032 2013-04-11 17:03:32 <Plornt> Im not looking to earn any money
3033 2013-04-11 17:03:40 <Plornt> just want to help out in general with things
3034 2013-04-11 17:03:59 jaequery has joined
3035 2013-04-11 17:04:01 <TD> depends what you mean by "services". web apps? p2p apps? core protocol infrastructure?
3036 2013-04-11 17:04:30 ThomasV has joined
3037 2013-04-11 17:04:37 <Plornt> Im more suited towards web development
3038 2013-04-11 17:05:03 n1c has quit (Quit: peace)
3039 2013-04-11 17:05:38 <TD> it'd be nice if there was an appstore-like catalogue of merchants and services, but one with a strong emphasis on editorial quality, high quality entries, maybe some user reviews etc
3040 2013-04-11 17:05:56 <TD> there have been a bunch of attempts at this but none ever took off because they were kind of half-assed
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3043 2013-04-11 17:08:21 <topi`> sipa: the way I see it, I think that bitcoin reference client ought to be coded in Haskell, for the numerous merits of it regarding to bugs and misbehaviour
3044 2013-04-11 17:08:30 i2pRelay has joined
3045 2013-04-11 17:08:50 <topi`> ...but that won't happen as long as most ppl are not familiar with Haskell
3046 2013-04-11 17:10:16 <TD> i learned some haskell once, and came away with the strong impression that the costs weren't worth the benefits
3047 2013-04-11 17:10:34 <sipa> topi`: if anything, you'd end up with a reference client that doesn't match what is actually deployed on the network
3048 2013-04-11 17:10:41 sud3n has joined
3049 2013-04-11 17:11:33 <topi`> that's another problem. but I could easily see a situation where a proper Haskell client will outperform the C++ client
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3051 2013-04-11 17:12:02 <topi`> with projects like Data Parallel Haskell
3052 2013-04-11 17:12:04 <sipa> topi`: so if there was a mismatch between them, it would be a bug in the actually used implementation for not following the standard set by the reference, but it would be the reference that is *wrong*, as consistency is more important for a consensus algorithm than 'correctness'
3053 2013-04-11 17:12:15 <imsaguy> another user reporting a QT crash in #eligius
3054 2013-04-11 17:12:50 <sipa> topi`: yes and no; getting really good performance in Haskell often needs non-ideomatic code, in my experience, and that is exactly what you'd want to avoid for an easy-to-understand reference implementation
3055 2013-04-11 17:13:04 <topi`> sipa: that just means that we must emulate *bugs* as well :) in order to be compatible with the consensus.
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3057 2013-04-11 17:14:37 <topi`> sipa: I think the kinds of problems (matching tx's, calculating ECDSA etc) are in that range of problems that actually work really well with idiomatic code
3058 2013-04-11 17:14:48 <pjorrit_> that's very difficult to do if you trip over things like a maximum allowed refered transactions in a block
3059 2013-04-11 17:15:07 <topi`> that said, a qsort would be implemented faster using monads...
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3071 2013-04-11 17:21:41 <sfraise> is there any way to run bitcoind on a redhat linux box that will only update glibc to version 2.5 instead of 2.7?
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3082 2013-04-11 17:25:31 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as away!~PiZZaMaN2@unaffiliated/pizzaman2k|PiZZaMaN2K
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3086 2013-04-11 17:27:00 <wumpus> sfraise: doesn't it compile with glibc 2.5?
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3088 2013-04-11 17:27:33 <sfraise> no, i get an error that glibc_2.7 not found
3089 2013-04-11 17:27:35 <sydna> sfraise: you shouldn't have issues using the binary from SF either
3090 2013-04-11 17:28:35 <wumpus> not sure about the binary, but I don't think we use a any recent glibc features, so if you compile from source it should work
3091 2013-04-11 17:30:15 lemieux has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3092 2013-04-11 17:30:36 <Diapolo> wumpus: I really lile Jonas work on the graphics :).
3093 2013-04-11 17:31:23 <wumpus> Diapolo: yes, me too
3094 2013-04-11 17:31:47 <wumpus> and he's mac developer too, that's great
3095 2013-04-11 17:31:58 <Diapolo> you have a little more time for Bitcoin recently, that is nice
3096 2013-04-11 17:32:04 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3097 2013-04-11 17:32:09 <Diapolo> yeah indeed, Mac love was needed badly
3098 2013-04-11 17:32:24 CaptainBlaze has joined
3099 2013-04-11 17:32:34 <wumpus> yes, somewhat more
3100 2013-04-11 17:32:36 i2pRelay has joined
3101 2013-04-11 17:32:36 <sydna> still is needed.
3102 2013-04-11 17:32:50 rowit has joined
3103 2013-04-11 17:33:01 <wumpus> what is needed?
3104 2013-04-11 17:33:08 <sydna> Mac love
3105 2013-04-11 17:33:12 ligar has joined
3106 2013-04-11 17:33:22 <wumpus> can you be specific?
3107 2013-04-11 17:33:30 <Diapolo> When is 0.8.2 scheduled and what are the blockers now?
3108 2013-04-11 17:33:50 <Diapolo> and will there be an RC phase?
3109 2013-04-11 17:33:53 <sydna> in 0.8.1 if you close the main window, you can't get it back without restarting the client
3110 2013-04-11 17:34:00 impulse has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3111 2013-04-11 17:34:04 <sydna> if you change the proxy settings you can't change them back
3112 2013-04-11 17:34:16 <sydna> and the dock menu is missing
3113 2013-04-11 17:34:16 <wumpus> the window problem is known, yes
3114 2013-04-11 17:34:29 <wumpus> dock menu issue should be fixed
3115 2013-04-11 17:34:40 <wumpus> I don't know of an issue with the proxy settings
3116 2013-04-11 17:34:52 <sydna> I think it's filed on github
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3119 2013-04-11 17:35:18 <Diapolo> that proxy stuff is on my list, IMHO we should not try to allow on-the-fly changes, as I think this will duplicate code from core in Qt though
3120 2013-04-11 17:35:24 <sfraise> how do you compile bitcoind from source in redhat linux?
3121 2013-04-11 17:35:36 <wumpus> Diapolo: I don't really know what is blocking 0.8.2
3122 2013-04-11 17:35:39 <sydna> sfraise: make -f makefile.unix
3123 2013-04-11 17:36:01 <sydna> Diapolo: excellent
3124 2013-04-11 17:36:14 <Diapolo> wumpus: translations are nearly up to date, one last pull during a possible RC phase and I'm really satisfied
3125 2013-04-11 17:36:57 <wumpus> sfraise: and follow the build instructions in doc/build-unix.txt
3126 2013-04-11 17:37:01 rdymac has joined
3127 2013-04-11 17:38:04 <sfraise> that works for redhat fedora? I thought that was for ubuntu
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3129 2013-04-11 17:38:52 <wumpus> some parts may be for ubuntu, but most of the instructions hold for any unixy os
3130 2013-04-11 17:38:53 * Luke-Jr ponders if it might make sense to make 0.9 simply be CodeShark's multiwallet + coin control and defer every other 0.9-planned feature for 0.10
3131 2013-04-11 17:39:07 Brizzo has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
3132 2013-04-11 17:39:30 <sydna> sfraise: if you are having difficulty reading build instructions, I seriously doubt you should be running a financial website.
3133 2013-04-11 17:39:30 <sfraise> no such file or directory
3134 2013-04-11 17:39:48 <Diapolo> Was CodeShark here recently? I'm a bit afraid such big refactorings break additional stuff badly... it need's to be better planned still.
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3136 2013-04-11 17:40:16 <Luke-Jr> Diapolo: hence why to take it in small steps
3137 2013-04-11 17:40:21 <sfraise> dude you can't compile using ubuntu commands on redhat fedora lol
3138 2013-04-11 17:40:23 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark's here more than you are :P
3139 2013-04-11 17:40:37 i2pRelay has joined
3140 2013-04-11 17:40:49 <Diapolo> Luke-Jr: maybe, but his help with fixing bugs was zero after wumpus merged his first big patch
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3153 2013-04-11 17:48:55 <wumpus> Diapolo: I think we had the worst part of the GUI changes now for multiwallet... ofc with his core changes, we should test it much more seriously before merging anyway
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3160 2013-04-11 17:52:47 <sfraise> my bad... was thinking the box I was on was fedora, it's enterprise 5
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3168 2013-04-11 17:56:11 <EvilPete> Luke-Jr: there appears to be a fair amount of community support for an officially "blessed" coin-control release.
3169 2013-04-11 17:56:38 <sipa> EvilPete: i'm sure Luke-Jr will answer that nothing is official :)
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3174 2013-04-11 17:57:55 <EvilPete> sipa: of course
3175 2013-04-11 17:58:31 grau has joined
3176 2013-04-11 17:58:37 <Luke-Jr> EvilPete: pretty sure the only real stopper has been code quality :p
3177 2013-04-11 17:59:17 <sipa> EvilPete: anyway, if all goes well, i think we'll get coin control in 0.9.0
3178 2013-04-11 17:59:26 <sipa> (no promise)
3179 2013-04-11 18:00:17 mercerist has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
3180 2013-04-11 18:00:35 <TD> i think gavin is heads down on payment protocol support atm
3181 2013-04-11 18:01:12 sydna has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3182 2013-04-11 18:01:58 * Luke-Jr sure hopes the payment protocol offers a real solution to DP
3183 2013-04-11 18:01:59 <wumpus> in my opinion multiwallet does have priority over coin control, but yeah it'd be nice to get both in
3184 2013-04-11 18:02:01 owowo has joined
3185 2013-04-11 18:02:14 <sipa> wumpus: agree
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3187 2013-04-11 18:02:32 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i wouldn't get my hopes up about them supporting it
3188 2013-04-11 18:02:40 fishfish has joined
3189 2013-04-11 18:02:56 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I know, but as long as it *offers* a solution, people will be able to see more clearly how harmful it is
3190 2013-04-11 18:03:03 fishfish has quit (Client Quit)
3191 2013-04-11 18:03:09 <midnightmagic> EvilPete: You can already do coin control with listunspent and the rawtransaction interface.
3192 2013-04-11 18:03:13 madb has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3193 2013-04-11 18:03:18 <Luke-Jr> 1st it = PP, 2nd it = DP
3194 2013-04-11 18:03:38 madb has joined
3195 2013-04-11 18:03:56 <wumpus> yes, the non-ui part of coincontrol has been merged for a while
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3201 2013-04-11 18:05:19 <midnightmagic> The only thing missing is a way to graph-search for connectivity between addresses.
3202 2013-04-11 18:05:23 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3203 2013-04-11 18:05:47 <sipa> getaddressgroupings?
3204 2013-04-11 18:06:07 lian_ has quit (Client Quit)
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3206 2013-04-11 18:06:55 <midnightmagic> sipa: I must misunderstand what that does.
3207 2013-04-11 18:07:02 * midnightmagic goes to read.
3208 2013-04-11 18:07:26 HM has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3209 2013-04-11 18:07:29 <midnightmagic> sipa: You meant listaddressgroupings right?
3210 2013-04-11 18:07:33 HM has joined
3211 2013-04-11 18:07:35 <sipa> right
3212 2013-04-11 18:07:43 <sipa> i must admit i never used that command myself
3213 2013-04-11 18:08:30 Anduck has joined
3214 2013-04-11 18:08:49 <midnightmagic> sipa: If that does an arbitrary-depth graph search then I guess voila :)
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3218 2013-04-11 18:12:56 <Diapolo> wumpus: you are probably right about Qt refactorings :) I'm out once more, looking forward to the final and mergable splash screen pull and 0.8.2 ;)
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3229 2013-04-11 18:22:05 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: effectively, not very rapidly either.
3230 2013-04-11 18:22:28 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Thanks!
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3241 2013-04-11 18:27:20 <MC1984> bitcoind memory 42mb
3242 2013-04-11 18:27:23 <MC1984> wat
3243 2013-04-11 18:28:08 <sipa> midnightmagic: how do you do that? :D
3244 2013-04-11 18:28:12 <sipa> eh, MC1984
3245 2013-04-11 18:28:15 HM has quit ()
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3248 2013-04-11 18:28:40 <MC1984> i just saw it as low as 40mb
3249 2013-04-11 18:28:42 <skinnkavaj> So are we ready to start rebuilding the economy once again?
3250 2013-04-11 18:28:51 <MC1984> with 24 connections and 2000 mempool
3251 2013-04-11 18:28:57 <skinnkavaj> And by that i mean further develop the bitcoin _protocol_
3252 2013-04-11 18:29:45 <skinnkavaj> You should all take a look at this: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1c4uxz/now_that_the_hype_is_gone_and_media_will_forget/
3253 2013-04-11 18:30:24 <MC1984> !blocks
3254 2013-04-11 18:30:26 <gribble> 230842
3255 2013-04-11 18:30:32 <petertodd> skinnkavaj: that poster doesn't seem to get that #1 and #2 conflict with each other
3256 2013-04-11 18:31:27 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3257 2013-04-11 18:31:42 <petertodd> skinnkavaj: #3 is already happening, localbitcoins.com, #4 is a worthy goal, and is happening
3258 2013-04-11 18:32:11 <sipa> MC1984: many blocks do you have...?
3259 2013-04-11 18:32:31 <sipa> just having the block headers in memory for the whole chain takes around 40 MB on a 32-bit system
3260 2013-04-11 18:32:39 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
3261 2013-04-11 18:32:40 <gribble> 230843
3262 2013-04-11 18:32:40 <MC1984> all of them
3263 2013-04-11 18:32:49 <MC1984> gone back up to 150mb now
3264 2013-04-11 18:32:56 <MC1984> after a processblock
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3268 2013-04-11 18:34:04 <MC1984> peak usage is 400mb so thats about a magnitude of bouncing around on the memory usage lol
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3274 2013-04-11 18:35:47 <gmaxwell> sipa: ... how does someone end up with a 200mbyte wallet?
3275 2013-04-11 18:36:44 <petertodd> gmaxwell: it's really easy, send lots of transactions which are long-no-conf chains
3276 2013-04-11 18:36:47 GlitchNZ has joined
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3278 2013-04-11 18:38:04 <gmaxwell> petertodd: nah, that doesn't work so well, go try it on testnet.
3279 2013-04-11 18:38:20 <sipa> gmaxwell: doesn't really matter - it's ridiculous that it takes seconds to sync
3280 2013-04-11 18:38:30 <gmaxwell> After about 30 it can't generate more than 1 per second... "Ratelimiting by inefficient algorithim"
3281 2013-04-11 18:38:31 <petertodd> gmaxwell: That's exactly where I ran into the problem.
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3285 2013-04-11 18:39:12 <gmaxwell> sipa: oh I absolutely agree, but since you didn't ask I wondered if you might know already!
3286 2013-04-11 18:39:54 <HM> gah stupid gcc
3287 2013-04-11 18:39:57 <gmaxwell> I have no idea how the wallets get that big.
3288 2013-04-11 18:40:12 <HM> gnu stdlibc++ doesn't support the locale sensitive version of isblank() yet -_-
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3308 2013-04-11 18:51:26 <gagecolton> psst
3309 2013-04-11 18:51:49 <gagecolton> is there a way to get a bitcoin client working over ham radios?
3310 2013-04-11 18:52:48 <petertodd> gagecolton: by far the easiest would be to get IP over ham working first
3311 2013-04-11 18:53:21 chmod755 has joined
3312 2013-04-11 18:53:31 paulo_ has joined
3313 2013-04-11 18:54:02 michagogo has joined
3314 2013-04-11 18:54:18 <paulo_> hello
3315 2013-04-11 18:54:20 <michagogo> Quick question... What does it mean when bitcoin returns "TX rejected (code -22)" from a sendrawtransaction?
3316 2013-04-11 18:54:26 <michagogo> or, where is there documentation for this?
3317 2013-04-11 18:54:44 <mungojelly> hey paulo_ yeah it's chaos over there :/
3318 2013-04-11 18:54:57 <mungojelly> anyway! let's make a blockchain that determines access to a forum, you have to buy an account on the forum through the blockchain.
3319 2013-04-11 18:55:11 rn4j0r2 has joined
3320 2013-04-11 18:55:22 <sivu> forumcoin
3321 2013-04-11 18:55:35 rowit has joined
3322 2013-04-11 18:55:50 <michagogo> Alternately, is there a way to rebroadcast a transaction that's better than feeding the output of getrawtransaction into sendrawtransaction?
3323 2013-04-11 18:56:10 rdymac has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3324 2013-04-11 18:56:21 <MC1984> i think b.i can broadcast raw txns
3325 2013-04-11 18:56:50 DrAkaman has joined
3326 2013-04-11 18:56:55 <sipa> michagogo: it means bitcoind would not accept that transaction into its memory pool, if it were received from network
3327 2013-04-11 18:56:57 <paulo_> I'm interested in alternative block chains, but I can't think of other applications.
3328 2013-04-11 18:57:06 abraxxo has joined
3329 2013-04-11 18:57:15 <sipa> michagogo: which is a very good indicator for the fact that other nodes wouldn't accept it either
3330 2013-04-11 18:57:20 <michagogo> sipa: Hmm
3331 2013-04-11 18:57:27 whizter has joined
3332 2013-04-11 18:57:31 <MC1984> paulo_ theres one that tried to be a DNS root
3333 2013-04-11 18:57:45 <michagogo> Does getrawtransaction not return what sendrawtransaction wants?
3334 2013-04-11 18:57:45 <paulo_> what needs distributed concensus?
3335 2013-04-11 18:57:48 <MC1984> or just a key/value database
3336 2013-04-11 18:57:52 <paulo_> hmm
3337 2013-04-11 18:57:53 <mungojelly> well we should be able to make a blockchain that supports some sort of general computing platform inside of it, but maybe we have to iterate through these special purpose chains first to comprehend it
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3339 2013-04-11 18:58:15 <sipa> michagogo: getrawtransaction works?
3340 2013-04-11 18:58:35 <sipa> michagogo: that explains, it means bitcoin already has it in its memory pool (and it is likely already sent out)
3341 2013-04-11 18:58:40 <michagogo> Ah
3342 2013-04-11 18:58:44 <michagogo> Yeah, it was sent out
3343 2013-04-11 18:58:48 <mungojelly> or i dunno let's just go for the brass ring. it computes something on all of the nodes of the network. you'd have to pay within the blockchain for that computing power. hmm.
3344 2013-04-11 18:59:02 <michagogo> sipa: Is there a way to make it forget it so I can rebroadcast it?
3345 2013-04-11 18:59:11 <michagogo> Specifically, after connecting to a new nod
3346 2013-04-11 18:59:12 <michagogo> e
3347 2013-04-11 18:59:29 <sipa> michagogo: you're not going to like it: yes, by restarting the node
3348 2013-04-11 18:59:42 <sipa> michagogo: but remember that your peers won't relay if they knew about it already
3349 2013-04-11 18:59:59 <michagogo> sipa: So quit the client and restart it?
3350 2013-04-11 19:00:05 <sipa> michagogo: yes
3351 2013-04-11 19:00:13 <michagogo> Why do you assume I won't like it?
3352 2013-04-11 19:00:23 rdymac has joined
3353 2013-04-11 19:00:29 sagax has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3354 2013-04-11 19:00:58 <mungojelly> is the plan to integrate coin coloring into the main Bitcoin client once it's more stable? i'm wondering what's the time-table for that transition. i know it's resisted by some people, are we still pretending it's not inevitable? ;)
3355 2013-04-11 19:01:04 Killdozer has left ()
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3357 2013-04-11 19:01:17 <BlueMatt> mungojelly: uhh...wat?
3358 2013-04-11 19:01:17 <petertodd> mungojelly: no
3359 2013-04-11 19:01:50 BenderCoin__ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3360 2013-04-11 19:02:07 <Mylon> mungo: what would in your opinion be the added value of color coding computer bits?
3361 2013-04-11 19:02:20 BenderCoin has joined
3362 2013-04-11 19:02:27 <paulo_> "coin coloring"
3363 2013-04-11 19:02:27 <Mylon> it would require an additional 8 bits (if not more) so it needs to have a purpose ;)
3364 2013-04-11 19:02:27 ligar has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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3368 2013-04-11 19:02:56 <michagogo> Ah, I see -- and if a transaction's already in the blockchain, it gets a different error
3369 2013-04-11 19:03:03 <michagogo> "transaction already in block chain (code -5)"
3370 2013-04-11 19:03:18 <michagogo> Which makes me wonder, why is there not an error for "I already know this"
3371 2013-04-11 19:03:20 <sipa> when it's already in the mempool, there should be a clearer error
3372 2013-04-11 19:03:20 <Mylon> that would imo just be a GUI enhancement
3373 2013-04-11 19:03:27 <paulo_> If i was to make a blockchain for key/value pairs, what would be the incentive for extending the chain?
3374 2013-04-11 19:03:28 <mungojelly> Mylon: hm? no it doesn't require any protocol changes as the bitcoinx folks are designing it.
3375 2013-04-11 19:03:29 <sipa> and perhaps even allow to force-rebroadcast
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3380 2013-04-11 19:04:00 <mungojelly> paulo_: namecoin is a blockchain for key/value pairs. the incentive is that some people are buying namecoin, for some reason. :/
3381 2013-04-11 19:04:23 <michagogo> sipa: Good to know that what I figured out by myself works as long as I restart my client
3382 2013-04-11 19:04:32 <mungojelly> coin coloring as i understand it is just a matter of looking over the blockchain and seeing which transactions descend in a proper way from a chosen genesis transaction.
3383 2013-04-11 19:04:44 <sipa> michagogo: feel free to file a bug about this, so it's not forgotten
3384 2013-04-11 19:04:51 <paulo_> I don't undesrtand how namecoin is a currency yet a key/value storage system.
3385 2013-04-11 19:05:14 <michagogo> I'll do that as soon as you point me to the bugtracker :-)
3386 2013-04-11 19:05:20 <mungojelly> paulo_: it's cool, even though i don't much like how namecoin is implemented in its details. the system itself sells you names.
3387 2013-04-11 19:05:26 <petertodd> paulo_: easy, it's Bitcoin + a special transaction type that is defined as a key/value definition
3388 2013-04-11 19:05:41 <michagogo> paulo_: It has a mechanism to destroy coins in exchange for putting a value into the blockchain
3389 2013-04-11 19:05:57 <michagogo> Well, not destroy, but take them out of use as coins
3390 2013-04-11 19:06:07 <petertodd> paulo_: You could implement exactly what namecoin is on Bitcoin itself, although doing so won't make anyone very pleased with you.
3391 2013-04-11 19:06:14 <mungojelly> paulo_: Bitcoin only knows how to sell people Bitcoin transactions (so far!?), but it does the same thing if you think about it. it autonomously collects fees for transactions and then gives them to miners in exchange for blocks, it acts as a vendor of transactions.
3392 2013-04-11 19:06:29 <Luke-Jr> paulo_: namecoin isn't really a currency.
3393 2013-04-11 19:06:48 <michagogo> Hmm, does bitcoin-qt automatically drop peers?
3394 2013-04-11 19:06:54 <mungojelly> i've seen people buy things for namecoin. not sure why but it happens.
3395 2013-04-11 19:07:05 <michagogo> I launched, a few seconds later I had about 17 peers
3396 2013-04-11 19:07:06 <sipa> michagogo: only if they misbehave
3397 2013-04-11 19:07:11 <michagogo> Then it dropped to 12
3398 2013-04-11 19:07:17 <sipa> michagogo: but your peers can disconnect for some reasons too
3399 2013-04-11 19:07:21 <michagogo> Ah
3400 2013-04-11 19:07:29 <BenderCoin> Luke-Jr, please explain why you think namecoin is not really a currency
3401 2013-04-11 19:07:33 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: people can buy things with anything, doesn't make it a currency ;P
3402 2013-04-11 19:07:35 <michagogo> Like what?
3403 2013-04-11 19:07:38 <Luke-Jr> like carrots
3404 2013-04-11 19:08:06 <Luke-Jr> BenderCoin: it's a key/value system
3405 2013-04-11 19:08:07 <michagogo> [21:42:32] <@sipa> michagogo: feel free to file a bug about this, so it's not forgotten
3406 2013-04-11 19:08:07 <michagogo> Where would I do that?
3407 2013-04-11 19:08:14 <mungojelly> well, i'd say it's not black or white. it does make carrots a little more currencyful. if people bought stuff for carrots all day long, it would add up to their being a currency.
3408 2013-04-11 19:08:17 <sipa> well, namecoin is a weird currency in any sense, because it has a fixed exchange rate to being used as tokens for registering names
3409 2013-04-11 19:08:24 <BenderCoin> Luke-Jr, no, namecoin is bitcoin + name value system extension.
3410 2013-04-11 19:08:36 <sipa> if it becomes too useful for registering names, it will become terrible expensive as a currency
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3412 2013-04-11 19:08:47 <BenderCoin> namecoins have exactl properties as bitcoins, same code everything.
3413 2013-04-11 19:09:02 <sipa> if it becomes too exchange as a currency, it won't be used to register names
3414 2013-04-11 19:09:05 <michagogo> !google bitcoin bug tracker
3415 2013-04-11 19:09:06 <gribble> Bitcoin: <http://bitcoin.org/>; Bitcoin version 0.5.1 released: <http://bitcoin.org/releases/2011/12/15/v0.5.1.html>; Common Vulnerabilities and Exposures - Bitcoin: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Common_Vulnerabilities_and_Exposures>
3416 2013-04-11 19:09:07 <Luke-Jr> BenderCoin: you're ignoring colours
3417 2013-04-11 19:09:11 <michagogo> hmm
3418 2013-04-11 19:09:15 <mungojelly> anyway obviously you can write a blockchain to do anything (that can be computed by all the nodes of the network) in exchange for anything within the system.
3419 2013-04-11 19:09:19 <michagogo> !google file bitcoin bug
3420 2013-04-11 19:09:20 <gribble> Bitcoin - Browse /Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.7.1 at SourceForge.net: <http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.7.1/>; Bitcoin - Browse /Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.0 at SourceForge.net: <http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.0/>; Bitcoin - Browse /Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.7.2 at SourceForge.net: (1 more message)
3421 2013-04-11 19:09:32 HM has joined
3422 2013-04-11 19:09:33 <sipa> michagogo: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues
3423 2013-04-11 19:09:36 <BenderCoin> namecoin db records are held and exchanged as a separate mechanism from namecoins themselves. so you could say namecoin is not a currency, but namecoins are
3424 2013-04-11 19:09:37 <michagogo> thanks
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3426 2013-04-11 19:09:57 <mungojelly> namecoin is a proof of concept. it doesn't work especially well but it does work.
3427 2013-04-11 19:10:25 <paulo_> what about a storage of magnet links for torrents.
3428 2013-04-11 19:10:57 <BenderCoin> mungojelly, yeah, the spec says 1023 bytes of data per name, I lost a load of good names due to the bug where any data value over 500 bytes locks your name and you lose it
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3430 2013-04-11 19:11:39 <BenderCoin> Luke-Jr, no idea what 'ignoring colours' means
3431 2013-04-11 19:11:45 <mungojelly> BenderCoin: ugh i didn't know that bug, i've only glanced at it, but it just doesn't feel well implemented. :( weird that people still buy it; there aren't enough choices apparently.
3432 2013-04-11 19:12:27 hsmithsN7 has joined
3433 2013-04-11 19:12:54 <mungojelly> paulo_: well just storing data, generally, as long as the model is that the keyholder can change the data, we might as well just generalize that
3434 2013-04-11 19:13:16 <mungojelly> paulo_: which i guess is kinda what the namecoin system does but apparently badly :/
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3437 2013-04-11 19:14:17 <BenderCoin> mungojelly, there are no active developers so its getting rusty. it needs a killer app, like maybe a cross platform wallet, and some good user apps and maybe it could gain traction.
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3440 2013-04-11 19:14:27 owowo is now known as panicolopolous
3441 2013-04-11 19:14:36 <BenderCoin> traction=users+devs+$
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3443 2013-04-11 19:14:48 panicolopolous is now known as owowodopolous
3444 2013-04-11 19:14:53 <mungojelly> BenderCoin: it's written in c++? i don't think i want to learn c++ again until i have a larger brain :/
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3447 2013-04-11 19:15:55 <mungojelly> that's another thing, could we get a cryptocurrency network written in Python or Scheme or something that humans can comprehend? ;) we'd have a lot more kinds of coin if people could make them by tweaking in Python.
3448 2013-04-11 19:16:20 <sipa> armory and electrum are bitcoin clients written in python
3449 2013-04-11 19:16:27 <sipa> neither implements the network rules though
3450 2013-04-11 19:16:36 <sipa> (they're not full clients on themself)
3451 2013-04-11 19:16:39 <BenderCoin> mungojelly, the bitcoin-ruby guys are doing some good stuff with namecoin also.
3452 2013-04-11 19:16:48 darwin_ has joined
3453 2013-04-11 19:16:51 <sipa> jgarzik's pynode is a full node written in python
3454 2013-04-11 19:17:24 <mungojelly> BenderCoin: i hadn't heard of it, my Ruby is rusty but it's a beautiful language so maybe i'd like to help with that :D
3455 2013-04-11 19:17:48 <michagogo> sipa: Done, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2512
3456 2013-04-11 19:17:51 <Luke-Jr> BenderCoin: http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23
3457 2013-04-11 19:18:04 <michagogo> And I apologize in advance for the fact that I'm not great at explaining stuff
3458 2013-04-11 19:18:40 <mungojelly> i'm surprised there are so few cryptocurrencies. are there really only like dozens of cryptocurrencies ever, including dead ones? why? can't any of you start one in an afternoon by tweaking this code you know well???
3459 2013-04-11 19:18:42 qdii has joined
3460 2013-04-11 19:19:13 <sipa> mungojelly: yes, we could, but any cryptocurrency that is just a few tweaks isn't worth experimenting with in my opinion
3461 2013-04-11 19:19:17 <pjorrit_> most who know the code well prefer to focus on bitcoin
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3463 2013-04-11 19:19:20 <Luke-Jr> mungojelly: you end up creating a pump-and-dump scam because there's no reason to adopt your new "cryptocurrency"
3464 2013-04-11 19:19:49 <mungojelly> i can understand i guess why there's not many serious attempts, though i'm surprised by that too really, but what really surprises me is that there's hardly any experimentation, play, fooling around
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3466 2013-04-11 19:19:55 <Luke-Jr> adoption is necessary to the legitimacy of a cryptocurrency
3467 2013-04-11 19:20:05 <sipa> mungojelly: there are very interesting things that could be investigated in new cryptocurrencies, but all of them at least require understanding the existing system and its issues well, and significant or even from-scratch implementations because they're so different
3468 2013-04-11 19:20:12 <Luke-Jr> mungojelly: there's plenty of experimentation, mostly on bitcoin and its testnets
3469 2013-04-11 19:20:33 <sipa> mungojelly: any other simple change is better integrated in bitcoin itself if possible :)
3470 2013-04-11 19:20:40 <mungojelly> Luke-Jr: ok well maybe there's some testnet experimentation i'm unfamiliar with :)
3471 2013-04-11 19:21:07 <mungojelly> sipa: well for instance a coin i thought of a couple weeks ago is GambleCoin-- sometimes balances just randomly go up and down
3472 2013-04-11 19:21:15 <Luke-Jr> O.o;;
3473 2013-04-11 19:21:23 <mungojelly> now obviously that would not be an especially valuable coin. i hope. it's just a silly fun idea.
3474 2013-04-11 19:22:02 <michagogo> mungojelly: Except, where would the entropy for the randomness come from?
3475 2013-04-11 19:22:05 <sipa> i'd just call it silly, but that's perhaps just me :)
3476 2013-04-11 19:22:14 <michagogo> Also, is there anything I forgot to add in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2512 ?
3477 2013-04-11 19:23:02 <sipa> michagogo: seems fine to me
3478 2013-04-11 19:23:18 <mungojelly> michagogo: i dunno, i thought we had plenty of entropy to do random things, do we not? run something in the system that makes entropy? i hear there's some cellular automata that are useful. that's what A New Kind Of Science said, anyway. :D
3479 2013-04-11 19:23:37 <michagogo> mungojelly: But how would it be decentralized?
3480 2013-04-11 19:24:08 <mungojelly> michagogo: take data for the entropy from a bunch of blocks in a row?
3481 2013-04-11 19:24:18 <sipa> mungojelly: that means miners can control it
3482 2013-04-11 19:24:23 <sipa> blocks aren't random
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3484 2013-04-11 19:24:42 <mungojelly> well but if it's chaotic and it's determined by a bunch of blocks it would make it too expensive.
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3486 2013-04-11 19:25:10 <pjorrit_> well if the last of that bunch would be deciding
3487 2013-04-11 19:25:23 <mungojelly> if you're taking the data from the hash of the block it's crazy expensive even for one block, isn't it??
3488 2013-04-11 19:25:31 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
3489 2013-04-11 19:25:45 <sipa> mungojelly: depends for what
3490 2013-04-11 19:25:53 <mungojelly> or like impossible. it has to be 0s at the beginning, if you're taking data from the end too.. you'd have to do the whole thing.
3491 2013-04-11 19:26:13 <sipa> please be more concrete
3492 2013-04-11 19:26:40 <sipa> if you're really planning on doing this, think about it well, work out the math and formula's you'd use and come back
3493 2013-04-11 19:26:51 <BlackPrapor> Luke-Jr: Hello Luke. It appears that greedy ddosers are more dangerous to bitcoin, than atlcoins -_-. Do you think its possible to do something like p2p based exchange? I've seen people discussing this today
3494 2013-04-11 19:27:00 <pjorrit_> or just code it up and launch it, ppl will eat it up ;p
3495 2013-04-11 19:27:24 <Luke-Jr> BlackPrapor: it definitely is possible - see #bitcoin-otc
3496 2013-04-11 19:27:27 mastertheknife has joined
3497 2013-04-11 19:27:30 <eklass> BlackPrapor: if there was a "p2p exchanbge", who would hold the fiat deposits?
3498 2013-04-11 19:27:32 <mungojelly> well it's a general class of systems, cryptocurrency systems that develop some entropy, you could use randomness for lots of things. i don't think it seems too difficult but yes you'd have to make really sure you'd really mixed shit up enough.
3499 2013-04-11 19:27:55 <BlackPrapor> eklass: interesting question =)
3500 2013-04-11 19:28:15 <Luke-Jr> BlackPrapor: another concept p2p exchange is ripple ;)
3501 2013-04-11 19:28:21 <eklass> BlackPrapor: i think we've identified a major hurdle ;)
3502 2013-04-11 19:28:26 <Luke-Jr> at least the original ripple
3503 2013-04-11 19:28:27 <pjorrit_> you could go the #opentransactions route for that
3504 2013-04-11 19:28:43 <pjorrit_> and have someone issuing tokens to represent the btc or dollars
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3508 2013-04-11 19:28:56 <pjorrit_> but then you need to trust that issuer to have the real goods
3509 2013-04-11 19:28:57 <BlackPrapor> Luke-Jr: otc doesn't have a way to have a single exchange rate, does it?
3510 2013-04-11 19:28:58 keystroke has joined
3511 2013-04-11 19:29:14 <Luke-Jr> BlackPrapor: so? :p
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3517 2013-04-11 19:30:08 <BlackPrapor> Luke-Jr: so, its hard to exchange when there is no agreeable price to exchange at
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3520 2013-04-11 19:30:46 <BlackPrapor> Luke-Jr: + all the problems with trust, all those scammers
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3523 2013-04-11 19:30:47 <eklass> BlackPrapor: people set the prices, exchanges don't. it's no different if you're exchanging between 1 seller and 1 buyyer or 1000 sellers and a 1000 buyers
3524 2013-04-11 19:31:08 <Luke-Jr> ^
3525 2013-04-11 19:31:35 <topace> hmm, im having problems with my data center bandwidth, whats the best way to limit bandwidth used by bitcoind ?
3526 2013-04-11 19:31:38 <BlackPrapor> eklass: yes, so it would be awesome to have a way to see the average price all otc users exchange at..
3527 2013-04-11 19:31:45 <topace> will keeping the connection count low (but reasonable) help ?
3528 2013-04-11 19:32:03 <Luke-Jr> topace: the same way you limit bandwidth used by any application
3529 2013-04-11 19:32:15 <mungojelly> BlackPrapor: in my experience people have been mostly trading based on the mtgox price everywhere :/
3530 2013-04-11 19:32:16 <eklass> BlackPrapor: bitcoincharts has an API for rolling weighted prices
3531 2013-04-11 19:32:33 <BenderCoin> MTGox == Comex. One price rules the world. NYSPOT is GOXSPOT
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3534 2013-04-11 19:32:41 <helo> if each block is allowed to be as large as typical node's bandwidth/cpu/mem permit, wouldn't bootstrapping a new node in log(n) time require an order of magnitude more capacity than the average node?
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3536 2013-04-11 19:32:52 <BlackPrapor> eklass: another problem is that you have to find a ton of traders if you want to make a large buy/sell
3537 2013-04-11 19:32:54 <topace> Luke-Jr: and that is ?
3538 2013-04-11 19:33:14 <HM2> meh
3539 2013-04-11 19:33:18 <eklass> there's no way you could calculate on all OTC transactions when there's no central information store to record the transaction
3540 2013-04-11 19:33:19 <helo> sorry, abusing the term "bootstrapping" to mean "syncing"
3541 2013-04-11 19:33:21 <Luke-Jr> topace: shrug, I use my OpenWrt router's QoS
3542 2013-04-11 19:33:24 <HM2> in big markets exchanges synchronise due to arbitrage
3543 2013-04-11 19:33:36 <HM2> the exchanges are too crappy and the liquidity too low atm
3544 2013-04-11 19:33:59 <topace> doesnt the linux kernel have some throttleing built into it these days?
3545 2013-04-11 19:34:10 <BlackPrapor> HM2: because in most exchanges its hard to get the money in
3546 2013-04-11 19:34:12 <_dr> when did this become #bitcoin-price? ;)
3547 2013-04-11 19:34:17 <Luke-Jr> topace: probably, but you'll want a tool to configure it
3548 2013-04-11 19:34:23 qwertyoruiop is now known as zz_qwertyoruiop
3549 2013-04-11 19:34:29 <helo> liquidity problems are characteristic of a manic market
3550 2013-04-11 19:34:37 <HM2> if an asset is completely fungible then you'd be a fool to not to trade at the market price.
3551 2013-04-11 19:35:11 <mungojelly> it seems to me the currency markets will decentralize themselves by turning into bots. they're starting off doing a bit of arbitrage & ridiculous predictive trading, but naturally they have to expand.
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3555 2013-04-11 19:36:18 <helo> the only solution is for people to stop being irrational and buying at ephemeral sky-high prices. pavlov says everyone needs to experience a big crash to keep their expectations sane.
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3559 2013-04-11 19:37:47 <mungojelly> people are barely able now to comprehend dead wallets, but they are going to have to deal with having a zillion agents actively dealing with various assets for them, because it's not going to stay anywhere near a human level of complexity.
3560 2013-04-11 19:38:45 <paulo_> wow, speculation discussion here too?
3561 2013-04-11 19:38:54 nova907767 has joined
3562 2013-04-11 19:39:00 <mungojelly> the problem isn't that it's hard to make decentralized exchanges. the problem is making a decentralized exchange *simple enough for a human*.
3563 2013-04-11 19:39:18 <helo> barring spamminess or actual dev discussion, offtopicness is somewhat tolerated
3564 2013-04-11 19:39:55 <_dr> so? emacs or vim?
3565 2013-04-11 19:39:56 <mungojelly> if the target audience is bots, it's a different story. it can be a very complex interface where you have to determine the trustworthiness of thousands and thousands of other agents by various complex methods repeatedly in real time.
3566 2013-04-11 19:39:57 GMP has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3567 2013-04-11 19:40:27 <helo> although i'd be happy if it hadn't been, and my somewhat viable question had been addressed by someone :/
3568 2013-04-11 19:40:36 hsmithsN7 has joined
3569 2013-04-11 19:40:41 <mungojelly> i've been using both emacs and vim but i hate both of them. :( i hate them most when they work best for me, because they make me feel specially powerful and separate and not like i have power that i can share with all of humanity. :(
3570 2013-04-11 19:40:49 <HM2> we saw a 10-12 fold increase in trading price inside a month
3571 2013-04-11 19:40:53 <sipa> and one fish actually bites
3572 2013-04-11 19:40:56 <HM2> yet people still expect that to continue
3573 2013-04-11 19:41:19 cyphurnz has joined
3574 2013-04-11 19:41:47 <HM2> I'm glad i find the technical aspects of bitcoin more interesting than the social and economic implications
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3576 2013-04-11 19:42:00 <BlackPrapor> mungojelly: so, how do you think it would be possible to decentralise exchanges, and still be able to let everyone know the real supply/demand values, and spot price?
3577 2013-04-11 19:42:15 a_meteorite has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
3578 2013-04-11 19:42:26 <michagogo> HM2: I'm 100% with you on that
3579 2013-04-11 19:42:41 <michagogo> Personally, I think the whole system is ingenious
3580 2013-04-11 19:42:55 pierre` has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3581 2013-04-11 19:44:01 <MC1984> how the price of weed get s
3582 2013-04-11 19:44:02 ColinT has joined
3583 2013-04-11 19:44:04 <MC1984> set?
3584 2013-04-11 19:44:38 <MC1984> kinda commodity with no central price arbiter obv
3585 2013-04-11 19:44:52 a_meteorite has joined
3586 2013-04-11 19:44:59 <mungojelly> BlackPrapor: um well you can't have 100% transparency of those things in any system can you? i'm assuming it's going to be a chaotic mess. but what i'm imagining is a network of untrusting peer agents.
3587 2013-04-11 19:45:02 <MC1984> varies from place to place but its roughly within a price envelope
3588 2013-04-11 19:45:11 <HM2> weed isn't fungible
3589 2013-04-11 19:45:12 hsmithsN7 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3590 2013-04-11 19:45:23 <HM2> it varies in quality
3591 2013-04-11 19:45:28 <BenderCoin> if the drug for fiat market was as centralized as bitcoin with mtgox, the price of weed would be the Amsterdam Spot.
3592 2013-04-11 19:45:41 <MC1984> yeah and each quality has its price
3593 2013-04-11 19:46:01 <HM2> quality is hard to quanitify
3594 2013-04-11 19:46:14 <HM2> personal opinion and taste
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3596 2013-04-11 19:46:23 <BenderCoin> Gox Strains: USD EUR etc
3597 2013-04-11 19:46:30 <MC1984> well its price comes from somewhere
3598 2013-04-11 19:46:34 <poggy> There is a saying as well, in many places the price doesn't vary but 'the cup suffers'
3599 2013-04-11 19:46:36 <mungojelly> weed usually gets classified into a few different qualities, precisely to force that fake fungibility on it because the market needs it
3600 2013-04-11 19:46:47 <poggy> meaning they just change how much you get
3601 2013-04-11 19:47:16 <poggy> very common in poorer African countries
3602 2013-04-11 19:47:25 <mungojelly> so there's no forethought from the main dev community about how coloring is going to be integrated into the whole system? it seems important, to me. :/
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3604 2013-04-11 19:48:08 <MC1984> how does otc find its price
3605 2013-04-11 19:48:15 <MC1984> just goes from gox or what
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3608 2013-04-11 19:49:59 <poggy> They don't really have a price
3609 2013-04-11 19:50:00 <BlackPrapor> mungojelly: I was thinking, maybe it could be possible to keep the trust with fiat money in current exchanges. Then they'd issue a suplemental cryptoUSD (premined and distributed among major exchanges, and run offline, but blockchain would be available with some delay on Internet). Then BTC would be traded with cryptoUSD, but everyone would have to use a registered btc addresses with major xchange
3610 2013-04-11 19:50:02 <sipa> otc uses whatever price people agree to
3611 2013-04-11 19:50:07 <sipa> just like mtgox, actually
3612 2013-04-11 19:50:27 <MC1984> i spose thats what it comes down to
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3614 2013-04-11 19:50:36 <poggy> It would be a lot easier to say they did if their bot was stricter about the way people listed offers
3615 2013-04-11 19:50:37 <MC1984> the price is whatever the buy and sller agree
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3619 2013-04-11 19:50:59 <BlackPrapor> that way every peer would be able to trade fast, see real price, supply demand, and trust each other
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3621 2013-04-11 19:52:33 <_dr> well, you could always come up with a decentralized system like p2pool for trading. no need to keep old blocks, decentralized, use some crypto to prevent cheating. but you still need a central place that takes your $$$
3622 2013-04-11 19:52:34 pacpac has joined
3623 2013-04-11 19:53:44 <BlackPrapor> _dr: correct. fiat currencies could be still handled by those companies, which already know how to deal with it, and comply with AML and etc
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3626 2013-04-11 19:54:20 <_dr> but look at all the people screaming for a central authority to shut down trading once the price crashes
3627 2013-04-11 19:54:44 <pjorrit_> what? pussies ;p
3628 2013-04-11 19:54:45 <_dr> even bender bending rodriguez would see the irony in that
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3630 2013-04-11 19:55:19 <BlackPrapor> the need for cryptoUSD (cryptoEUR and etc) is just to be able to trade p2p and see trade stats.
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3649 2013-04-11 20:04:53 <jok> hi@all
3650 2013-04-11 20:05:06 <jok> Question. scriptPubKey=OP_DUP OP_HASH160 26cda7bbceabd8fe6208c31518ba74ec6dbb0dd9 OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG
3651 2013-04-11 20:05:46 <jok> is it right that "26cda7bbceabd8fe6208c31518ba74ec6dbb0dd9" is an bitcoin address ?
3652 2013-04-11 20:05:50 enki23 is now known as paulbohm
3653 2013-04-11 20:05:58 <jok> !help
3654 2013-04-11 20:05:59 <gribble> The bot responds when you start a line with the ! character. A good starting point for exploring the bot is the !facts command. You can also visit the bot's website for a list of help topics and documentation: http://gribble.sourceforge.net/
3655 2013-04-11 20:06:06 Diablo-D3 has joined
3656 2013-04-11 20:06:22 <sipa> jok: in hex, yes
3657 2013-04-11 20:06:30 <sipa> jok: it's typically encoded in base58check
3658 2013-04-11 20:06:41 MashRinx has joined
3659 2013-04-11 20:08:27 <jok> sipa, good, but if make pack() (like "26" => \x26) and then EncodeBase58() i get "YMZihgNGMrQgoFLeXvyqdAvR3Sx"
3660 2013-04-11 20:08:52 <jok> it is shorted then default bitcoin address
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3662 2013-04-11 20:09:03 <sipa> jok: base58check = base58 + 32-bit checksum
3663 2013-04-11 20:09:36 <Luke-Jr> base58(format identifier + data + checksum)
3664 2013-04-11 20:09:38 <sipa> jok: it means, before encoding as base58, you append the first 4 bytes of the double-sha256 hash of the data preceeding it
3665 2013-04-11 20:09:40 pacpac has joined
3666 2013-04-11 20:09:41 <jok> thks
3667 2013-04-11 20:09:56 <sipa> and indeed, there a version byte in front as (which is taken into account for the checksum)
3668 2013-04-11 20:10:03 <Luke-Jr> format identifier 0 means OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <data> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG
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3680 2013-04-11 20:15:10 <jok> ok. is there is a function in bitcoind source which do convertation from such hex to right BTC address ?
3681 2013-04-11 20:15:13 i2pRelay has joined
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3683 2013-04-11 20:16:51 <Luke-Jr> jok: not likely
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3687 2013-04-11 20:17:48 <gonffen> !facts
3688 2013-04-11 20:17:49 <gribble> To see a nice sortable web view of all factoids, click here: http://gribble.dreamhosters.com/viewfactoids.php?db=%23bitcoin-dev || To see a list of the most popular factoids, run !rank || To search factoids, run !factoids search <yoursearchterm>
3689 2013-04-11 20:17:55 <dsal> Hey, what would cause a transaction to hang for a very long time?
3690 2013-04-11 20:17:59 <dsal> http://blockchain.info/tx/ef7251a123301310fff1b502b5f6d459676f17892cc2c6c4d56417ba417a3565
3691 2013-04-11 20:18:12 <dsal> I'm curious as to why this would be unconfirmed after nearly two hours.
3692 2013-04-11 20:18:21 maddcrash has joined
3693 2013-04-11 20:18:53 <gmaxwell> dsal: wrong channel, ask in #bitcoin
3694 2013-04-11 20:19:10 <Scrat> #bitcoin-tech
3695 2013-04-11 20:19:32 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3696 2013-04-11 20:19:33 madb has joined
3697 2013-04-11 20:19:34 <gmaxwell> Scrat: no, that channel is for apps and tools stuff.
3698 2013-04-11 20:19:42 bcb is now known as BCB
3699 2013-04-11 20:19:49 <Scrat> ah, sorry
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3707 2013-04-11 20:22:46 <jok> Luke-Jr, it's strange, course we can send to btc-address in rigth form
3708 2013-04-11 20:23:31 <michagogo> gmaxwell: Not what the topic says
3709 2013-04-11 20:23:33 <michagogo> 'Technical aspects of bitcoin that don't belong in #bitcoin-dev friendlier than #bitcoin :)'
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3714 2013-04-11 20:29:13 <Diablo-D3> https://developer.amazon.com/sdk/coins/landing.html?ref_=pe_132830_29076940
3715 2013-04-11 20:29:21 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell, sipa: what the fuck am I looking at
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3724 2013-04-11 20:32:57 <diki> what kind of changes are needed in bitcoin to have special private keys that can be owned by a single entitiy only? This should basically allow for people to sell private keys and subsequently lose access to them even if they know it?
3725 2013-04-11 20:33:14 maddcrash is now known as maddc
3726 2013-04-11 20:33:20 <diki> s/know it?/know it.
3727 2013-04-11 20:33:23 <jouke> diki: it is called bitcoin.
3728 2013-04-11 20:33:31 <oiram> I'm having trouble finding an intelligent btc IRC conversation since all the scammers poluted the channels. Is there a new channel for people who's IQs are larger than 5?
3729 2013-04-11 20:34:15 <oiram> They are just trying to generate fear on the other channels. ...and with the bad english, it is really suspicious.
3730 2013-04-11 20:34:30 <diki> jouke:huh?
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3736 2013-04-11 20:36:33 <helo> diki: private keys, by virtue of being data, can be copied/owned by multiple people.
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3739 2013-04-11 20:38:18 <helo> diki: a leger system like bitcoin with strong one-way transfer of value seems to do exactly what you describe
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3744 2013-04-11 20:41:02 <diki> What if a user generates a very hard vanity address, how would he sell it's private key, but also providing some ensurance he doesn't have a copy(and they always do :S)
3745 2013-04-11 20:41:20 <sipa> diki: use EC math magic
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3747 2013-04-11 20:41:43 <wumpus> oiram: #bitcoin-tech
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3750 2013-04-11 20:41:55 <diki> sipa:If you are talking about adding/multiplying private keys, that works with something like a pool
3751 2013-04-11 20:41:56 <sipa> diki: if i have a public key of yours, i can generate a number that has to be added to your *private* key in order to obtain an address with desired properties
3752 2013-04-11 20:42:12 <diki> i.e you must provide a public keys
3753 2013-04-11 20:42:16 <diki> *key
3754 2013-04-11 20:42:42 a_meteorite has joined
3755 2013-04-11 20:42:46 <diki> But in my case let's say I've generated a very hard address by myself with vanitygen/oclvanitygen and I'd like to sell it, as it will take a while to produce.
3756 2013-04-11 20:43:07 <diki> this is just an example, I personally don't plan on doing something like this.
3757 2013-04-11 20:43:15 <jaakkos> it would be impossible to prove you don't have the private key.
3758 2013-04-11 20:43:27 <jaakkos> because you do.
3759 2013-04-11 20:43:32 <diki> exactly.
3760 2013-04-11 20:43:52 <diki> One day people will want to roll with custom addresses.
3761 2013-04-11 20:44:03 <diki> Like how you can buy a custom address for a car etc
3762 2013-04-11 20:44:10 <jaakkos> but if they know what address they want, they can make other people compute it for them.
3763 2013-04-11 20:44:17 pacpac has joined
3764 2013-04-11 20:44:25 <sipa> i hope one year from now, no human will need to see a bitcoin address at all anymore
3765 2013-04-11 20:44:26 <ali1234> well, how about using namecoin to map fixed names to addresses?
3766 2013-04-11 20:44:28 <pjorrit_> yea there's a distributed service for that isnt there?
3767 2013-04-11 20:44:32 <jaakkos> yes
3768 2013-04-11 20:44:32 <sipa> making vanity addresses obsolete
3769 2013-04-11 20:44:37 <pjorrit_> in juts one year?
3770 2013-04-11 20:44:41 <diki> sipa:Oh, having plans?
3771 2013-04-11 20:44:46 <sipa> if the payment protocol gets adopted, sure
3772 2013-04-11 20:44:52 <diki> bip?
3773 2013-04-11 20:44:56 <sipa> you'll just pay to a URL
3774 2013-04-11 20:45:11 <sipa> https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/4120476
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3781 2013-04-11 20:47:30 <diki> and this would allow chargebacks?
3782 2013-04-11 20:48:55 twobitcoins_ has joined
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3785 2013-04-11 20:51:40 <sipa> no
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3790 2013-04-11 20:52:36 <jok> Luke-Jr, base58.h class CBase58Data, method ToString(). Yep!
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3801 2013-04-11 20:57:34 <BlueMatt> wtf? Winklevoss...
3802 2013-04-11 20:57:48 <phantomcircuit> wat
3803 2013-04-11 20:57:52 <BlueMatt> http://www.theverge.com/2013/4/11/4213956/whats-cooler-than-a-million-dollars-winklevoss-twins-own-1-percent-of
3804 2013-04-11 20:58:02 <phantomcircuit> oh
3805 2013-04-11 20:58:13 <diki> BlueMatt:Attack of the clones
3806 2013-04-11 20:58:18 madb has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3807 2013-04-11 20:58:56 <phantomcircuit> lol they're about to get flooded with nonsense
3808 2013-04-11 20:59:40 <jouke> lol
3809 2013-04-11 21:00:43 <MC1984> oh so thats the bitcoin elite
3810 2013-04-11 21:00:44 <phantomcircuit> 1064658 trades on mtgox upto Tue, 22 Nov 2011 02:09:35 GMT
3811 2013-04-11 21:00:54 <phantomcircuit> this is going to take a while
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3817 2013-04-11 21:03:54 <jgarzik> Large, naive portions of this community will be shocked when the rich and powerful... buy into bitcoin and become the Bitcoin Rich And Powerful.
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3821 2013-04-11 21:04:27 <denisx> if they own 1% of all bitcoins that would be more than 10 million $ and not 1.3 million $
3822 2013-04-11 21:04:32 <denisx> something fishy with the repotz
3823 2013-04-11 21:04:35 <denisx> report
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3825 2013-04-11 21:05:01 <ThomasV> "The Winklevii  as they are popularly known  say they own nearly 1 percent of that, or some $11 million."
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3827 2013-04-11 21:05:16 <ThomasV> something fishy with your eyes :)
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3830 2013-04-11 21:05:57 <denisx> The brothers claim to have amassed one of the largest portfolios of Bitcoin in the world, worth around $1.3 million, or about 1 percent of the entire currency's dollar value equivalent
3831 2013-04-11 21:06:00 <ThomasV> oh, sry, I wasn't reading the same link
3832 2013-04-11 21:06:04 <ThomasV> http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/04/11/as-big-investors-emerge-bitcoin-gets-ready-for-its-close-up/
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3840 2013-04-11 21:07:44 <denisx> ThomasV: that report looks alot better
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3848 2013-04-11 21:12:08 <k9quaint> man, #litecoin is almost as crazy sauce as #solidcoin was
3849 2013-04-11 21:12:40 <k9quaint> rabid amateurs flailing about in a swimming pool filled with maple syrup and pinecones
3850 2013-04-11 21:13:19 <Scrat> it's like trolling in a sea of trolls
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3853 2013-04-11 21:13:38 <MaxValor> i like the swimming pool metaphor better
3854 2013-04-11 21:13:39 <gonffen> lol
3855 2013-04-11 21:13:46 <MaxValor> throw in some random barbed wire too
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3860 2013-04-11 21:14:22 <k9quaint> I was trying to have a conversation about the pros and cons of blockchain speed
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3871 2013-04-11 21:20:23 <_maniac_> Hello. I'm experiencing high swap usage for bitcoind. Ubuntu 12.04. both version 0.8.0 and 0.8.1.
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3879 2013-04-11 21:22:15 <sipa> _maniac_: feel free to try git head, if you can compile from source; it has much better memory usage
3880 2013-04-11 21:22:16 <denisx> _maniac_: compile HEAD or just buy more ram
3881 2013-04-11 21:22:26 <_maniac_> thx, will try.
3882 2013-04-11 21:22:31 someonesomewhere has joined
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3888 2013-04-11 21:24:36 <jok> Luke-Jr, base58(format identifier + data + checksum) . so we don't need any additional information besides 19034a421bf9f6a14657f39c806944d3e197d1cf ( ....OP_HASH160 19034a421bf9f6a14657f39c806944d3e197d1cf OP_EQUALVERIFY...)
3889 2013-04-11 21:24:42 iwilcox_ has quit (Client Quit)
3890 2013-04-11 21:24:49 <jok> ?
3891 2013-04-11 21:25:20 iwilcox_ has joined
3892 2013-04-11 21:25:32 Ranvier has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3893 2013-04-11 21:25:36 <sipa> jok: indeed
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3895 2013-04-11 21:27:18 chorao has quit ()
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3897 2013-04-11 21:28:31 <jok> sipa, ok
3898 2013-04-11 21:28:34 Tritonio has joined
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3914 2013-04-11 21:40:20 <jok> sipa, i am confused with these lines: "class CKeyID : public uint160", CKeyID keyID = newKey.GetID();, CBitcoinAddress(keyID).ToString();
3915 2013-04-11 21:40:58 <cyphase> any thoughts on the issue of changing the crypto in bitcoin? if there's some breakthrough that renders ecdsa easily crackable, even if support was added for something else, only newly transfered bitcoins would be protected by the new crypto
3916 2013-04-11 21:41:13 <sipa> jok: the keyid is that 160-bit hex string
3917 2013-04-11 21:41:30 normanrichards has joined
3918 2013-04-11 21:41:34 <sipa> jok: CBitcoinAddress is the class for converting to string representation of an address
3919 2013-04-11 21:41:45 <sipa> jok: addresses can also be send-to-script instead of send-to-pubkeyhash
3920 2013-04-11 21:42:03 quaz0r has joined
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3925 2013-04-11 21:43:06 <jok> sipa, what do you mean in last sentence? is it right that we can took address from Script by callinf some f ?
3926 2013-04-11 21:43:12 MobGod has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3927 2013-04-11 21:43:14 bitcoinxc has joined
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3929 2013-04-11 21:43:42 <sipa> jok: where do you see a script?
3930 2013-04-11 21:44:19 <bitcoinxc> hello - I am making a website to replace the bitcoin faucet - It will give awqay 4-12 satoshi to all visitors for free - can I get some help testing the website?
3931 2013-04-11 21:44:55 <sipa> bitcoinxc: seems very hard to do
3932 2013-04-11 21:44:57 MobGod has joined
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3935 2013-04-11 21:44:59 <graingert_> bitcoinxc: you bet
3936 2013-04-11 21:45:04 <graingert_> bitcoinxc: link?
3937 2013-04-11 21:45:12 <jok> class CScript: std::string ToString()
3938 2013-04-11 21:45:14 <sipa> bitcoinxc: spending such a coin would require more fees than what they receive...
3939 2013-04-11 21:45:22 <sipa> jok: that isn't called
3940 2013-04-11 21:45:53 rdymac has quit (Read error: No route to host)
3941 2013-04-11 21:46:01 rdymac has joined
3942 2013-04-11 21:46:16 <bitcoinxc> the website is www.bitcoinxc.com - it is early alpha
3943 2013-04-11 21:46:31 <sipa> coins less than 0.0001 aren't useful, really
3944 2013-04-11 21:47:17 <bitcoinxc> I think giving away a few satoshi at a time will encourage people to get wallets
3945 2013-04-11 21:47:34 <bitcoinxc> and I may increase teh give aways in the future.
3946 2013-04-11 21:47:39 xenesis_ has joined
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3949 2013-04-11 21:48:09 <sipa> bitcoinxc: you don't understand
3950 2013-04-11 21:48:19 <sipa> you can't spend these
3951 2013-04-11 21:48:31 <bitcoinxc> I understand perfectly
3952 2013-04-11 21:48:40 MaxValor has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3953 2013-04-11 21:48:40 sagax has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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3955 2013-04-11 21:48:45 xenesis_ is now known as xenesis
3956 2013-04-11 21:48:53 <sipa> then what is the point?
3957 2013-04-11 21:49:12 <bitcoinxc> the value of a few satoshi is too low to buy anything - I will increase the giveaway later. I am in alpha - give me a break
3958 2013-04-11 21:49:21 <sipa> oh, sorry
3959 2013-04-11 21:49:34 <sipa> i misunderstood - i thought this was the intention :)
3960 2013-04-11 21:49:37 rowit has joined
3961 2013-04-11 21:49:59 anon__ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
3962 2013-04-11 21:50:11 <sipa> bitcoinxc: i'd suggest testing on testing with realistic amounts, though
3963 2013-04-11 21:50:31 Guest12448 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3964 2013-04-11 21:50:36 xenesis has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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3966 2013-04-11 21:50:53 <bitcoinxc> the goal is to get people to think and act - think about bitcoins and get a wallet - then if they have done the first steps it is that much easier to fund their accounts later - I am just getting ppl started
3967 2013-04-11 21:50:53 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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3971 2013-04-11 21:52:03 <sipa> bitcoinxc: sure, i'm not arguing against the usefulness of a faucet in general
3972 2013-04-11 21:52:40 oiram has joined
3973 2013-04-11 21:53:01 <bitcoinxc> so if you hit submit - did your page blank - did it reload the page or did it give you a confirmation that the bitcoin was sent?
3974 2013-04-11 21:53:52 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3975 2013-04-11 21:53:58 <bitcoinxc> what do you think of page design? I could use help on the CSS
3976 2013-04-11 21:54:19 lodse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3977 2013-04-11 21:54:35 jsfsn has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
3978 2013-04-11 21:54:55 <bitcoinxc> can anyone give me feedback on my new bitcoin faucet?
3979 2013-04-11 21:55:22 <lianj> yes, where is it?
3980 2013-04-11 21:55:42 <bitcoinxc> http://www.bitcoinxc.com/
3981 2013-04-11 21:56:09 <bitcoinxc> tell me if the page blanks, reloads, or gives an error?
3982 2013-04-11 21:56:58 stretchwarren has joined
3983 2013-04-11 21:57:30 <_maniac_> I personally find that animated favicon annoying.
3984 2013-04-11 21:57:44 <lianj> bitcoinxc: no errors but also no status message that it succeeded
3985 2013-04-11 21:57:53 <MC1984> browser mining?
3986 2013-04-11 21:57:58 <bitcoinxc> what browser are you using?
3987 2013-04-11 21:58:06 <paulbohm> Impromptu Opensource Bitcoin Exchange Software Design Hack-Day at my place in SF/Mission today. Feel free to join if you feel like it!
3988 2013-04-11 21:58:07 <jok> bitcoinbulletin, no blank pages or errors
3989 2013-04-11 21:58:32 <bitcoinxc> uh - browser mining will be a way to suport the site through java mining
3990 2013-04-11 21:58:36 <bitcoinxc> its not done yet
3991 2013-04-11 21:58:41 <gonffen> bitcoinxc: is it supposed to confirm you submitted an address?
3992 2013-04-11 21:58:58 <bitcoinxc> depends on the browser
3993 2013-04-11 21:59:03 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3994 2013-04-11 21:59:29 <bitcoinxc> what browser are you using? I use chrome and internet explorer
3995 2013-04-11 21:59:34 i2pRelay has joined
3996 2013-04-11 21:59:37 shesek has joined
3997 2013-04-11 21:59:40 <MC1984> do you realise how non viable java mining is
3998 2013-04-11 21:59:45 zrad has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3999 2013-04-11 21:59:48 <_maniac_> firefox. no message whatsoever upon submitting address.
4000 2013-04-11 22:00:03 <bitcoinxc> yes but ..... If a milliion people java mine for 5 minutes each...
4001 2013-04-11 22:00:10 TheBigYak has quit (Quit: Leaving)
4002 2013-04-11 22:00:16 <MC1984> youll get 10 cents or something
4003 2013-04-11 22:00:40 <bitcoinxc> and 10 cents will enable me to give out millioins of satoshi
4004 2013-04-11 22:00:48 <bitcoinxc> thus = success
4005 2013-04-11 22:01:04 _anon has joined
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4007 2013-04-11 22:01:27 <MC1984> youll never find a block on your own
4008 2013-04-11 22:01:33 <bitcoinxc> whats the best forum for bitcoin development? I am using php.
4009 2013-04-11 22:01:36 <bitcoinxc> I pool
4010 2013-04-11 22:01:40 <MC1984> and im not sure youll eve reach the payout threshold of any pool either
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4012 2013-04-11 22:01:58 <gonffen> or ever a damn share
4013 2013-04-11 22:01:59 <bitcoinxc> I think your missing the point of the website
4014 2013-04-11 22:02:12 <lianj> bitcoinxc: 12 satoshi meaning 0.00000012 btc?
4015 2013-04-11 22:02:13 <bitcoinxc> the goal is not to get rich on java mining.
4016 2013-04-11 22:02:31 bwen has joined
4017 2013-04-11 22:02:32 <bitcoinxc> whatever teh smallest unit is
4018 2013-04-11 22:02:48 <bitcoinxc> I will increase payout after I have the site fully operational
4019 2013-04-11 22:02:53 <bitcoinxc> I am looking for some help
4020 2013-04-11 22:02:57 rdymac has quit (Read error: No route to host)
4021 2013-04-11 22:03:00 <lianj> bitcoinxc: please dont send me that shit, costs more to send than its worth
4022 2013-04-11 22:03:02 <Luke-Jr> bitcoinxc: use testnet
4023 2013-04-11 22:03:07 <lianj> that too
4024 2013-04-11 22:03:24 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4025 2013-04-11 22:03:30 xenesis_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
4026 2013-04-11 22:03:42 <lianj> 15 minutes mining gives you more than 0.00000012
4027 2013-04-11 22:03:43 i2pRelay has joined
4028 2013-04-11 22:03:51 <_maniac_> can't you spend one satoshi coin with some other, bigger transaction?
4029 2013-04-11 22:03:53 <bitcoinxc> I am having a hard enough time using bitcoin...
4030 2013-04-11 22:04:03 <MC1984> _maniac_ doesnt work like that
4031 2013-04-11 22:04:18 <graingert_> _maniac_: no, but you can spend one satoshi with some other transaction
4032 2013-04-11 22:04:21 manacit is now known as seattle
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4037 2013-04-11 22:04:30 <bitcoinxc> you can tip ppl on reddit with satoshi
4038 2013-04-11 22:05:01 <_maniac_> graingert_: that's what I meant, yes.
4039 2013-04-11 22:05:02 <graingert_> bitcoinxc: it's not worth the time to collect
4040 2013-04-11 22:05:07 <MC1984> graingert_ dont think it works like that either?
4041 2013-04-11 22:05:10 <bitcoinxc> where is teh best bitcoin dev forums?
4042 2013-04-11 22:05:40 <graingert_> MC1984: yes it does, it still lowers your priority
4043 2013-04-11 22:05:57 <_maniac_> I mean, transaction consists of inputs and outputs. if I'm already paying for something from bigger coin, can't I put one satoshi in it (just to get rid of it)
4044 2013-04-11 22:06:19 <graingert_> _maniac_: yes, but it will increase your fee more than it's worth
4045 2013-04-11 22:06:22 <graingert_> maybe
4046 2013-04-11 22:06:24 <graingert_> I think?
4047 2013-04-11 22:06:25 xenesis_ has joined
4048 2013-04-11 22:06:28 <graingert_> gmaxwell: :(
4049 2013-04-11 22:06:29 <lianj> _maniac_: sure, you pay only for the final tx size
4050 2013-04-11 22:07:21 cononicalmonster has joined
4051 2013-04-11 22:07:47 <cononicalmonster> whats going on in here
4052 2013-04-11 22:07:50 <MC1984> an input is an input though wheter 1 satishi or 1 coin
4053 2013-04-11 22:08:05 <MC1984> still uneconomical, youd olny do it if you rally wanted to get rid
4054 2013-04-11 22:08:08 <jspilman> I think it increases size, which will count against you, but size is cheap. Ive read people who claimed they could add additional high priority coins into a transaction, and use the dust without paying a fee that way
4055 2013-04-11 22:08:19 <jspilman> but you're paying either way
4056 2013-04-11 22:08:30 Burnin8 has joined
4057 2013-04-11 22:08:34 <gmaxwell> jspilman: sure, if you're already qualifying as free and have extra priority you can sweep dust that way.
4058 2013-04-11 22:08:42 <jspilman> paying with priority is exactly the same as paying a fee with BTC, economically
4059 2013-04-11 22:08:44 <cononicalmonster> what are thoughts on what happens when gox goes back up
4060 2013-04-11 22:08:57 <jspilman> thoughts are - off topic? :-)
4061 2013-04-11 22:08:58 <gmaxwell> jspilman: the difference is that priority is not conserved and btc is.
4062 2013-04-11 22:09:14 <MC1984> gmaxwell couldnt the client have logic to sweep dust like that automatically where possible, to keep the utxo down
4063 2013-04-11 22:09:18 <gmaxwell> cononicalmonster: Thats totally offtopic here, go to the cesspool at #bitcoin-pricetalk for that.
4064 2013-04-11 22:09:21 <bitcoinxc> well my goal is to get people using bitcoin - not give away millions of $$$ - if you have a better suggestion let me know - I can always increase teh payout
4065 2013-04-11 22:09:21 <jspilman> right, the miner can't spend your priority... hmm... :-)
4066 2013-04-11 22:09:24 <bitcoinxc> http://www.bitcoinxc.com/
4067 2013-04-11 22:09:45 <cononicalmonster> so what are we discussing:? mining?
4068 2013-04-11 22:09:58 <gmaxwell> MC1984: sure. But it's not clear how much that will helpâ esp the people with lots of dust tend to not have much priority at all.. and increasingly blocks are full of fee driven txn.
4069 2013-04-11 22:10:17 <bitcoinxc> I created a new bitcoin faucet and peopel are complaining I dont give enough away...
4070 2013-04-11 22:10:29 <cononicalmonster> ic
4071 2013-04-11 22:10:30 <jspilman> does 'priority' ultiamtely go away at some point?
4072 2013-04-11 22:10:40 <gmaxwell> jspilman: yes, basically.
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4074 2013-04-11 22:10:45 safra has quit (Quit: Leaving)
4075 2013-04-11 22:10:46 <jspilman> bitcoinxc: sounds about right
4076 2013-04-11 22:10:49 <bitcoinxc> what is a good amount to give away then?
4077 2013-04-11 22:10:59 DevMumbleRelay has joined
4078 2013-04-11 22:10:59 <jspilman> maybe call it bitcoin trickle
4079 2013-04-11 22:11:06 <gmaxwell> jspilman: and then you have fee.. but fee is conserved, and so a utxo can truly be uneconomical.
4080 2013-04-11 22:11:09 <Konnichiwa> bitcoin drip
4081 2013-04-11 22:11:15 Burninate has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
4082 2013-04-11 22:11:28 <bitcoinxc> bitcoin nano payouts
4083 2013-04-11 22:11:31 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4084 2013-04-11 22:11:34 Diapolis has joined
4085 2013-04-11 22:11:34 <jspilman> are any miners doing the merkle of uxto?
4086 2013-04-11 22:11:50 <gmaxwell> jspilman: I came up with a way of solving the uneconomical utxo issue, but its probably too complicated a change for bitcoin. :( (it's also a hardfork)
4087 2013-04-11 22:12:02 i2pRelay has joined
4088 2013-04-11 22:12:10 <gmaxwell> jspilman: no, no software has been written for it. it's just an idea now, and not an especially concrete one.
4089 2013-04-11 22:13:03 <_maniac_> sorry, what is "utxo"?
4090 2013-04-11 22:13:09 <jspilman> bitcoinxc: well, if the faucet produces literally unspendable output, then it's just broken - it's not like you can 'accumulate' dust and eventually get something that's spendable - you just have to wait it out until BTC is $10,000 / coin and the dust has meaningful value... which could take a while!
4091 2013-04-11 22:13:17 <Konnichiwa> is MtGox using bitcoind RPC for its trading or what?
4092 2013-04-11 22:13:38 Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving)
4093 2013-04-11 22:13:40 <jspilman> best writeup I found was here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:DiThi/MTUT
4094 2013-04-11 22:14:00 <jgarzik> Konnichiwa: MtGox has its own bitcoin platform software and trading engine. Try #mtgox for specific questions
4095 2013-04-11 22:14:05 <gmaxwell> (The way you solve the uneconomical unspent transaction output problem is that you make every output created reduce the permitted blocksize of the block creating it by the size required to redeem it.. and when it gets redeemed you increase the permitted blocksize by that amount.)
4096 2013-04-11 22:14:06 <jspilman> are people still convinced it would be useful?
4097 2013-04-11 22:14:15 <bitcoinxc> do I need to run bitcoind in shell on my server or can we do php api calls without it? I am on a shared server...
4098 2013-04-11 22:14:18 <Konnichiwa> jgarzik: Okay, thanks.
4099 2013-04-11 22:14:21 ColinT has joined
4100 2013-04-11 22:14:29 <jspilman> it == MTUT
4101 2013-04-11 22:15:05 <gmaxwell> jspilman: I feel somewhat less confident that I initially felt, because it fundimentally makes running a full node more expensive. .. but I hope it will be useful.
4102 2013-04-11 22:16:26 <MC1984> _maniac_ if the chain is where all the coins have been, the utxo is where all the coins are right now
4103 2013-04-11 22:16:26 <gmaxwell> jspilman: that specific page doesn't really cover much of the interesting stuff that makes it actually challenging to do.
4104 2013-04-11 22:16:42 <jspilman> is there a page that does? would like to read THAT!
4105 2013-04-11 22:16:51 <bitcoinxc> I doubt the original faucet gave out enough to spend when it was first placed into service
4106 2013-04-11 22:16:54 <MC1984> unspent tx output array
4107 2013-04-11 22:16:58 <_maniac_> MC1984: I see, thanks
4108 2013-04-11 22:16:58 diki has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
4109 2013-04-11 22:17:58 atweiden has joined
4110 2013-04-11 22:18:03 <jspilman> bitcoinxc: actually, the opposite - since BTC was so cheap back then
4111 2013-04-11 22:18:20 <gmaxwell> jspilman: it's spread among a zilling pages and emails alas.
4112 2013-04-11 22:18:35 <jspilman> g: indeed
4113 2013-04-11 22:18:37 <bitcoinxc> bitcoins were hardly worth anything in th ebegining
4114 2013-04-11 22:18:46 xenesis has joined
4115 2013-04-11 22:19:04 <jspilman> add it to the TODO list :-)
4116 2013-04-11 22:19:27 <gmaxwell> bitcoinxc: you couldn't even spend bitcoins _at first_. It was super boring.
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4120 2013-04-11 22:20:14 <jspilman> network hash rate correlates to BTC conversion rates... wonder if we'll see a major drop and much longer inter-block timing for the next 2016
4121 2013-04-11 22:20:17 Grouver has quit (Quit: I love my HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-)
4122 2013-04-11 22:20:36 <MC1984> nope
4123 2013-04-11 22:20:42 <gmaxwell> jspilman: I'm doubtful, mining is all distorted and out of wack right now
4124 2013-04-11 22:20:54 <MC1984> most of it is avalons and no ones taking those offline any time soon
4125 2013-04-11 22:20:57 <jspilman> the uptick in the last 3 months must be ASIC related? very steep
4126 2013-04-11 22:21:00 <jspilman> k
4127 2013-04-11 22:21:01 rowit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
4128 2013-04-11 22:21:06 <bitcoinxc> so whats the problem with giving out a few satoshi of bitcoin - why are ppl complaining about my new faucet?
4129 2013-04-11 22:21:10 <gmaxwell> jspilman: mining is not at its normal low profit equlibrium because most of the purchased asics have not shown up now.
4130 2013-04-11 22:21:28 <jspilman> didn't realized they had shipped more than a hundred or so... or you're telling my 80% of the hashing is 100 avalons ^-^
4131 2013-04-11 22:21:33 <gmaxwell> bitcoinxc: few satoshi? because you're creating outputs that can't be spent.
4132 2013-04-11 22:21:41 moistcherry has joined
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4134 2013-04-11 22:21:59 <MC1984> you want to help bitcoin but bloating the utxo just hurts it instead
4135 2013-04-11 22:22:00 <gmaxwell> bitcoinxc: it's will likely bloat the blockchain forever and just irritate the recipents, though I'm sure you mean well.
4136 2013-04-11 22:22:09 <jspilman> bitcoinxc: it's not that they're "just not worth very much" - they literally *cannot be used*
4137 2013-04-11 22:22:16 * HM2 wonders if zeromq is really so great
4138 2013-04-11 22:22:17 <bitcoinxc> you couldnt originally spend bitcoin? just wait... satoshi could be worth something sometime
4139 2013-04-11 22:22:24 * jspilman has found that's it not :-)
4140 2013-04-11 22:22:28 <MC1984> bitcoinxc ill give you 5 ish testcoins to do it on testnet instead?
4141 2013-04-11 22:22:37 <gmaxwell> bitcoinxc: those coins will be lost long before they're worth anything.
4142 2013-04-11 22:22:56 <moistcherry> hey i think i solved bitcoin
4143 2013-04-11 22:23:05 <moistcherry> i figured out a way to put as many coins into circulation as i want
4144 2013-04-11 22:23:11 <jspilman> bitcoinxc: make a new wallet, use your own service to pay yourself some satoshi. now try to send them somewhere and see what happens
4145 2013-04-11 22:23:19 <bitcoinxc> well after I work out the bugs I will try ot increase payout. anyway give me your feedback http://www.bitcoinxc.com/
4146 2013-04-11 22:23:25 <moistcherry> i'll send each of you ten bitcoins just to show you i'm serious
4147 2013-04-11 22:23:35 <HM2> jspilman: i have been reading up on the proper way to shutdown() tcp sockets - excellent article here: http://blog.netherlabs.nl/articles/2009/01/18/the-ultimate-so_linger-page-or-why-is-my-tcp-not-reliable
4148 2013-04-11 22:23:44 diki has joined
4149 2013-04-11 22:23:49 <moistcherry> fags
4150 2013-04-11 22:23:50 moistcherry has left ("Leaving")
4151 2013-04-11 22:24:10 <HM2> boost asio seems to have a shutdown method and linger options, so that's nice
4152 2013-04-11 22:24:10 <jspilman> oh good, he didn't even wait for the ban
4153 2013-04-11 22:24:13 <gmaxwell> 0_o
4154 2013-04-11 22:24:46 <gmaxwell> "banned until 10 BTC recieved at 1GMaxweLLbo8mdXvnnC19Wt2wigiYUKgEB"
4155 2013-04-11 22:24:51 <kadoban> ahaha
4156 2013-04-11 22:25:01 <_dr> well, you can always cp wallet.dat ...
4157 2013-04-11 22:25:08 <jspilman> tomorrow a new CVE goes out, and turns out that was 'moistcherry's responsible disclosure
4158 2013-04-11 22:25:08 <_maniac_> gmaxwell: how long it took to get that address?
4159 2013-04-11 22:25:20 <gmaxwell> _maniac_: Many electrons died for that address.
4160 2013-04-11 22:25:24 normanrichards has quit ()
4161 2013-04-11 22:25:27 <jspilman> ouch!
4162 2013-04-11 22:25:33 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: broke thermodynamics??!
4163 2013-04-11 22:25:52 <BlueMatt> ehh...physics
4164 2013-04-11 22:25:53 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: nah, they got converted into photons. :)
4165 2013-04-11 22:25:58 <BlueMatt> heh, ok
4166 2013-04-11 22:26:01 <bitcoinxc> ok i got a donation - whats the minimal BTC to payout that will ever be worth anything?
4167 2013-04-11 22:26:04 <jspilman> just converted to pho... oh you're too quick
4168 2013-04-11 22:26:05 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell also has a light-based computer
4169 2013-04-11 22:26:09 <bitcoinxc> I will try to increase my payout
4170 2013-04-11 22:26:12 <kadoban> the heat death of the universe...all that address's fault
4171 2013-04-11 22:26:20 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: your computer also convers electrons into photons. :)
4172 2013-04-11 22:26:24 <_dr> BlueMatt: me too. i ordered one from d-wave
4173 2013-04-11 22:26:34 <_dr> arrived last november, along with my bfl sc single
4174 2013-04-11 22:26:36 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yes, though not mostly.....
4175 2013-04-11 22:26:44 <BlueMatt> _dr: lol
4176 2013-04-11 22:27:28 ralphthe1inja has joined
4177 2013-04-11 22:27:35 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4178 2013-04-11 22:27:43 ralphthe1inja has quit (Client Quit)
4179 2013-04-11 22:27:55 ralphthe1inja has joined
4180 2013-04-11 22:28:08 i2pRelay has joined
4181 2013-04-11 22:28:10 <gmaxwell> _maniac_: it took roughly as much GPU time to generate that address as it took to solve a block at difficulty 1M. :)
4182 2013-04-11 22:28:26 <_maniac_> D:
4183 2013-04-11 22:28:33 ralphthe1inja has quit (Client Quit)
4184 2013-04-11 22:28:40 jtimon has joined
4185 2013-04-11 22:28:41 ralphthe1inja has joined
4186 2013-04-11 22:28:51 ralphtheninja has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4187 2013-04-11 22:28:52 <gmaxwell> So I'm always sad when it fails to impress people. :P
4188 2013-04-11 22:29:22 ralphthe1inja is now known as ralphtheninja
4189 2013-04-11 22:29:24 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4190 2013-04-11 22:29:32 <_dr> i always thought it was generated using -i, but then there's no 'l' in addresses, also the capital G and M seem intentional
4191 2013-04-11 22:29:35 <gmaxwell> actually I have a bunch of 1gmaxwell ones... I was hoping I'd get a better match with some coincidentally good following characters.
4192 2013-04-11 22:29:55 <MC1984> so you paid how much for that bit of pomp :P
4193 2013-04-11 22:30:12 u has joined
4194 2013-04-11 22:30:28 <_dr> 1gmaxwellkingofnewengland
4195 2013-04-11 22:30:30 <gmaxwell> well, I did it when bitcoin had slumped back to $3 or whatever and my gpu mining was hardly profitable in any case.
4196 2013-04-11 22:30:31 Burnin8 is now known as Burninate
4197 2013-04-11 22:30:34 diki has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
4198 2013-04-11 22:30:34 u is now known as Guest18393
4199 2013-04-11 22:30:49 <gmaxwell> _dr: I actually did manage one totally insane one, but it turned out to be .. er. kinda gay.
4200 2013-04-11 22:30:57 <_dr> haha!
4201 2013-04-11 22:31:59 <gmaxwell> Was trying to generate a cute one for my girlfriendâ Kat Walshâ and managed 1KATWALSHTHECuz5DFHoNqJax6hnDbL6KN.
4202 2013-04-11 22:32:07 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
4203 2013-04-11 22:32:12 cononicalmonster has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4204 2013-04-11 22:32:52 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
4205 2013-04-11 22:32:53 <saivann> Last call for ACK or NACK for Google Analytics on bitcoin.org : https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/issues/121 . Otherwise, I will setup this tomorrow.
4206 2013-04-11 22:32:56 <gmaxwell> too bad it's silly, would have been awesome to have people thinking I did an 82 bit search for that.
4207 2013-04-11 22:33:30 <jspilman> I have a question I've been meaning to ask about wallet encryption. Seems like the standard procedure is a wallet random salt, then AES-CBC-256 on each privKey with an IV, with a hard KDF to derive the encryption key from the password
4208 2013-04-11 22:33:39 <_dr> too bad we don't have any ati clusters :(
4209 2013-04-11 22:33:45 <bitcoinxc> so your gf lives in san francisco
4210 2013-04-11 22:33:49 Irencus has quit ()
4211 2013-04-11 22:33:49 <_dr> otherwise i'd be generating silly addresses all day
4212 2013-04-11 22:34:15 <jspilman> So, in theory, if the privKeys you are encrypting are truly random, why can't you just 'KDF(pass) XOR privKey'
4213 2013-04-11 22:34:22 <BlueMatt> sipa: sorry it took so long, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2514
4214 2013-04-11 22:34:48 Guest18393 has quit (Client Quit)
4215 2013-04-11 22:34:54 <gmaxwell> jspilman: because if you do that then the encrypted private keys are related.
4216 2013-04-11 22:34:57 <Konnichiwa> Quick question, turning an address into a Public Key Hash (160). Its just a Base58 Check in reverse yes?
4217 2013-04-11 22:35:01 <jspilman> or rather, 'KDF(salt, pass) XOR privKey'
4218 2013-04-11 22:35:30 <gmaxwell> jspilman: e.g. privkey XOR enc_privkey = KDFedPWD ..
4219 2013-04-11 22:35:38 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4220 2013-04-11 22:35:44 <jspilman> one one half of the "OTP" has to be random for it to be strong. typically that's the key, not the data... but what's the difference?
4221 2013-04-11 22:35:45 <gmaxwell> jspilman: e.g. you export one of your privkeysâ one with no funds on it and give it to me..
4222 2013-04-11 22:35:47 <jspilman> only one
4223 2013-04-11 22:35:53 <gmaxwell> jspilman: then I steal your wallet, and tada, I have all your keys.
4224 2013-04-11 22:36:10 i2pRelay has joined
4225 2013-04-11 22:36:12 <jspilman> duh, k thanks
4226 2013-04-11 22:36:14 BlackPrapor has joined
4227 2013-04-11 22:36:53 Impaler has joined
4228 2013-04-11 22:37:22 <_dr> Konnichiwa: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Technical_background_of_Bitcoin_addresses
4229 2013-04-11 22:38:11 <_maniac_> btw, git HEAD actually consumes less memory
4230 2013-04-11 22:38:37 <_dr> Konnichiwa: not exact, but the idea base58(0 + ripemd160(sha256(pubkey) + checksum)
4231 2013-04-11 22:38:56 <_dr> missing parenthesis! :(
4232 2013-04-11 22:39:01 _maniac_ has quit (Quit: k, thx, bye)
4233 2013-04-11 22:39:30 <Konnichiwa> okay, because the public key on the transaction is 734b59019efef6764f9d1d7539ea24a471bc3bef whilst my public key in software is starting 6f734b, so it has a 6f on the front??
4234 2013-04-11 22:40:44 <lianj> _dr: the address version belongs in the hash160 too
4235 2013-04-11 22:40:57 santoscork has joined
4236 2013-04-11 22:41:10 <Konnichiwa> hmm
4237 2013-04-11 22:41:59 <santoscork> Hello I've had Bitcoin-QT (wallet) open for over 12 hours and the progress bar has still not reached its end. Is this expected behaviour?
4238 2013-04-11 22:42:22 <Konnichiwa> So I should be cutting out the first byte for the public key HASH160?
4239 2013-04-11 22:42:35 <santoscork> This is the case after launching it for the first time today. Thanks in advance.
4240 2013-04-11 22:42:49 _anon has quit (Quit: _anon)
4241 2013-04-11 22:43:04 <denisx> santoscork: yes, it can take a while
4242 2013-04-11 22:43:05 <_dr> santoscork: unfortunately, yes. initial synchronization can take a while. feel free to close at any time; will resume where you left off. also, once it has finished the initial sync, the successive syncs will be much faster
4243 2013-04-11 22:43:15 <phantomcircuit> santoscork, is it at least moving?
4244 2013-04-11 22:43:39 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4245 2013-04-11 22:43:49 <santoscork> It is moving, it's at 228435 / 230871
4246 2013-04-11 22:43:59 <_dr> you're almost done, then
4247 2013-04-11 22:44:17 <denisx> but the last part is the hardest
4248 2013-04-11 22:44:19 WKNiGHT has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
4249 2013-04-11 22:44:20 i2pRelay has joined
4250 2013-04-11 22:44:34 BlackPrapor has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
4251 2013-04-11 22:44:36 <santoscork> Is it recommended that I mine while my wallet is in queue? I am in fact GPU mining now using the command line via Diablominer binary.
4252 2013-04-11 22:45:00 paraipan has joined
4253 2013-04-11 22:45:03 <sipa> wallet in queue?
4254 2013-04-11 22:45:32 <_dr> i guess he means syncing blockchain not finished
4255 2013-04-11 22:45:53 <santoscork> sipa: I mean, it has not complete the initialisation
4256 2013-04-11 22:45:57 paulbohm has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4257 2013-04-11 22:46:10 <_dr> you can generate an address and send your payouts there, it'll be fine
4258 2013-04-11 22:46:17 <santoscork> _dr: thank you for the correction.
4259 2013-04-11 22:46:38 <sipa> santoscork: are you solo mining?
4260 2013-04-11 22:46:49 <santoscork> _dr: how do I generate an address?
4261 2013-04-11 22:47:08 bibbybob has quit (Quit: Leaving)
4262 2013-04-11 22:47:09 saulimus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4263 2013-04-11 22:47:12 oiram has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4264 2013-04-11 22:47:18 <sipa> santoscork: or in apool
4265 2013-04-11 22:47:22 <santoscork> sipa: no I am not doing solo. I gather I won't see any returns on the time invested so far then is that correct?
4266 2013-04-11 22:47:46 parker__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4267 2013-04-11 22:47:49 <sipa> is that a yes or a no?
4268 2013-04-11 22:47:49 <_dr> santoscork: receive coins -> new address
4269 2013-04-11 22:48:24 <santoscork> sipa: I am in a pool, yes
4270 2013-04-11 22:48:40 one_zero has joined
4271 2013-04-11 22:48:43 <sipa> then it doesn't matter
4272 2013-04-11 22:48:57 <sipa> you're not using your bitcoin client at all for mining
4273 2013-04-11 22:49:24 xenesis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4274 2013-04-11 22:50:19 Haifisch has joined
4275 2013-04-11 22:50:36 <santoscork> _dr: should I stop mining until the wallet completes the sync? I am concerned that the energy I am using to send blocks to the pool will not benefit me in anyway. I am not clear on how an individual's efforts get recognised. I would assume the wallet has to be available.
4276 2013-04-11 22:50:43 <santoscork> sipa: how does it not matter?
4277 2013-04-11 22:50:58 <sipa> santoscork: the pool gives you work, you send results to the po
4278 2013-04-11 22:51:13 <sipa> santoscork: your bitcoin wallet isn't involves
4279 2013-04-11 22:51:33 <sipa> which pool?
4280 2013-04-11 22:51:34 <santoscork> sipa: so by virtue of being in the pool I get recognised as a contributor. I seeâ¦
4281 2013-04-11 22:51:39 <_dr> santoscork: on the pool website there's usually a field for a payout address
4282 2013-04-11 22:51:44 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4283 2013-04-11 22:51:58 <_dr> you just generate an address in your client and put it there
4284 2013-04-11 22:52:07 Xeno-Genesis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4285 2013-04-11 22:52:13 i2pRelay has joined
4286 2013-04-11 22:52:15 <santoscork> sipa: I will let you know in a memont. Let me check for you.
4287 2013-04-11 22:52:19 <_dr> tomorrow you'll wake up and see you've earned $0.0001
4288 2013-04-11 22:52:20 <sipa> santoscork: you're not contributing to the network; you're donating your gpu power to the pool, and they pay you for that
4289 2013-04-11 22:52:27 <santoscork> _dr: I will confirm if I have setup that address.
4290 2013-04-11 22:52:45 <santoscork> sipa: I stand corrected, of course.
4291 2013-04-11 22:52:51 <santoscork> brb
4292 2013-04-11 22:53:37 giz has joined
4293 2013-04-11 22:53:53 qdii has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
4294 2013-04-11 22:54:24 <santoscork> pool name is Team NexGen, I chose it simply because if the size, it appeared to be the biggest. I am not sure if that was a necessarily good strategy.
4295 2013-04-11 22:54:32 <Konnichiwa> Question: How do I determine the number of 'confirmations' a transaction has received?
4296 2013-04-11 22:54:49 giz has quit (Client Quit)
4297 2013-04-11 22:54:57 <bonks> Konnichiwa: You could use blockchain.info (just search for your txn id)
4298 2013-04-11 22:55:03 impulse has quit (Quit: leaving)
4299 2013-04-11 22:55:05 <sipa> the largest? i haven't even heard of that one
4300 2013-04-11 22:55:15 <bonks> Or in your client software, like bitcoin-qt, hover over the transaction it'll tell you the # of confs
4301 2013-04-11 22:55:20 <_dr> i was only thinking it
4302 2013-04-11 22:55:27 impulse has joined
4303 2013-04-11 22:55:36 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
4304 2013-04-11 22:56:56 <_dr> i really wish i was in the us, i fear i'll miss out on all the fun at 2:00 utc :(
4305 2013-04-11 22:57:16 <sipa> where are you?
4306 2013-04-11 22:57:21 <santoscork> _dr: what might you miss?
4307 2013-04-11 22:57:29 <_dr> cest, germany
4308 2013-04-11 22:57:38 <sipa> #bitcoin-pricetalk :)
4309 2013-04-11 22:57:50 xenesis has joined
4310 2013-04-11 22:58:06 qdii has joined
4311 2013-04-11 22:59:43 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4312 2013-04-11 22:59:59 someonesomewhere has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
4313 2013-04-11 23:00:14 i2pRelay has joined
4314 2013-04-11 23:00:48 twobitcoins has joined
4315 2013-04-11 23:01:25 <santoscork> I see this message in my bit coins dashboard tab
4316 2013-04-11 23:01:27 <santoscork> Configure a Bitcoin address. You have not saved a bitcoin address to send your bitcoins to when you do an instant payout. This is OK for now, your bitcoins are safe. We suggest getting a bitcoin address from your own bitcoin wallet, a mt. gox or tradehill account, or a 3rd party e-wallet service.
4317 2013-04-11 23:01:59 <santoscork> Am I ok? I have my bitcoin-qt still syncing.
4318 2013-04-11 23:02:27 <sipa> yes
4319 2013-04-11 23:02:37 <sipa> you just need an address when you checkout
4320 2013-04-11 23:02:45 <sipa> also, can you take this to #bitcoin ?
4321 2013-04-11 23:03:27 <santoscork> thanks for understanding sips. this channel is for technical questions only correct?
4322 2013-04-11 23:03:36 <santoscork> *sipa
4323 2013-04-11 23:03:41 cheako has joined
4324 2013-04-11 23:04:06 <sipa> and discussion
4325 2013-04-11 23:05:13 rdymac has joined
4326 2013-04-11 23:05:25 cheako has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
4327 2013-04-11 23:06:39 cheako has joined
4328 2013-04-11 23:07:12 <gmaxwell> (He was flooding other channels before, I assume that Max SendQ exceeded was a failed attempt here)
4329 2013-04-11 23:07:16 rdymac has quit (Client Quit)
4330 2013-04-11 23:07:45 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4331 2013-04-11 23:08:15 i2pRelay has joined
4332 2013-04-11 23:08:33 cheako has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
4333 2013-04-11 23:09:02 <DevMumbleRelay> console: Goodbye.
4334 2013-04-11 23:09:02 DevMumbleRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4335 2013-04-11 23:09:39 WKNiGHT has joined
4336 2013-04-11 23:09:50 thisship has joined
4337 2013-04-11 23:10:49 gdoteof has quit (Quit: leaving)
4338 2013-04-11 23:11:02 <santoscork> #bitcoinpricetalk is all doom and gloom, gee
4339 2013-04-11 23:11:20 <santoscork> #bit-coinpricetalk rather
4340 2013-04-11 23:11:55 <sipa> no, #bitcoin-pricetalk
4341 2013-04-11 23:12:01 Bohren has joined
4342 2013-04-11 23:12:07 <santoscork> I gave up on my second attempt :)
4343 2013-04-11 23:12:13 <santoscork> #bitcoin-pricetalk yes
4344 2013-04-11 23:12:43 brson has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4345 2013-04-11 23:13:38 n1bor has joined
4346 2013-04-11 23:14:08 thisship has left ()
4347 2013-04-11 23:14:12 <santoscork> It's astounding to see how some people are ranking at 10s of thousands of MH/s - they must be running mining operations off supercomputers or something.
4348 2013-04-11 23:14:46 <sipa> a single ASIC devixe does 60GH/s
4349 2013-04-11 23:14:50 <sipa> device
4350 2013-04-11 23:15:32 <santoscork> sipa: I know of only one company but they ship in July or august, they are still testing
4351 2013-04-11 23:15:47 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4352 2013-04-11 23:15:48 <sipa> BFL hasn't delivered any
4353 2013-04-11 23:15:57 <santoscork> their cheapest device will be around $250 USD
4354 2013-04-11 23:15:59 <sipa> Avalon has shipped one batch already
4355 2013-04-11 23:16:19 i2pRelay has joined
4356 2013-04-11 23:16:24 <sipa> and ASICminer is at... no idea what hashrate
4357 2013-04-11 23:16:47 duckybsd has joined
4358 2013-04-11 23:16:54 rahmaninov has quit (Quit: Page closed)
4359 2013-04-11 23:16:58 andyh2 has joined
4360 2013-04-11 23:17:05 <sipa> 5 TH/s or so
4361 2013-04-11 23:17:24 <santoscork> According to http://launch.avalon-asics.com/#prices they don't look like they are shipping either
4362 2013-04-11 23:17:25 da2ce7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4363 2013-04-11 23:17:42 <sipa> they aren't, but they have
4364 2013-04-11 23:17:43 da2ce7 has joined
4365 2013-04-11 23:17:46 <santoscork> did you actually mean TH/s?
4366 2013-04-11 23:17:48 <sipa> yes
4367 2013-04-11 23:17:53 <santoscork> insane!
4368 2013-04-11 23:17:56 <sipa> not a single device; in total
4369 2013-04-11 23:18:07 <sipa> ;;nethash
4370 2013-04-11 23:18:09 <gribble> 66792.9137749
4371 2013-04-11 23:18:20 <sipa> total network is at 66.7 TH/s
4372 2013-04-11 23:18:32 <santoscork> sips ah ok - the network
4373 2013-04-11 23:18:35 <santoscork> amamzing
4374 2013-04-11 23:19:01 <sipa> asicminer is not the network, they are a single party that produces asics and mines using them
4375 2013-04-11 23:19:15 <sipa> people can buy shares in return for hashrate
4376 2013-04-11 23:20:27 <graingert_> sipa: sounds like an attempt at an attack :p
4377 2013-04-11 23:20:28 <santoscork> I thought you had a stat that showed what the entire network speed is in terms of TH/s
4378 2013-04-11 23:20:37 <graingert_> santoscork: there is one yes
4379 2013-04-11 23:20:55 <allanlw> how many hours has mtgox's one hour down time been?
4380 2013-04-11 23:21:05 <graingert_> allanlw: ask #mtgox ?
4381 2013-04-11 23:21:12 <santoscork> http://www.butterflylabs.com this is nice hardware!
4382 2013-04-11 23:21:33 <santoscork> I would be happy with one of these, https://products.butterflylabs.com/homepage/5-gh-s-bitcoin-miner.html
4383 2013-04-11 23:21:50 <sipa> santoscork: see http://bitcoin.sipa.be for graphs of the hashrate of the whole network
4384 2013-04-11 23:22:09 <MC1984> oh look now its 300 dollars
4385 2013-04-11 23:22:20 <sipa> santoscork: by the time you'd get them, it's likely that they aren't that useful anymore :)
4386 2013-04-11 23:22:45 <sipa> santoscork: they were announced in may 2012, and haven't shipped any yet
4387 2013-04-11 23:22:59 <MC1984> delivery may take 2 months or more after order. All sales are final.
4388 2013-04-11 23:23:01 <MC1984> LOL
4389 2013-04-11 23:23:50 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4390 2013-04-11 23:24:16 <santoscork> sipa: not useful anymore? That raises a serious question and concern. The cost of equipment may actually diminish the interest. for example, my GPU is doing 165MH/s but for 250 USD I can get a 5GH/s device.
4391 2013-04-11 23:24:23 i2pRelay has joined
4392 2013-04-11 23:25:04 <sipa> santoscork: if thousands of asic devices enter the market, the total hashrate will increase massively, and the difficulty of mining will follow
4393 2013-04-11 23:25:27 kermit_ is now known as fookkcoin
4394 2013-04-11 23:25:30 <sipa> they'll still be useful of course, just not as much as they seem now
4395 2013-04-11 23:25:40 agricocb has joined
4396 2013-04-11 23:26:45 <santoscork> sipa: yes of course, I understand. This leads to a serious problem. Ultimately, the scale and entry level will be so high that only a few players will be able to afford it and bit coin may become cost prohibitive because, like you said, difficulty will increase
4397 2013-04-11 23:26:53 PartTimeLegend has joined
4398 2013-04-11 23:26:54 RoboTeddy has joined
4399 2013-04-11 23:27:18 <PartTimeLegend> How long do the unit tests normally take to run?
4400 2013-04-11 23:27:21 rdymac has joined
4401 2013-04-11 23:27:53 <Luke-Jr> PartTimeLegend: a few seconds
4402 2013-04-11 23:28:10 a_meteorite has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
4403 2013-04-11 23:28:36 <santoscork> Ironicly, bit coin may fail due to this mismatch of hashing speed and competition to increase it as rapidly as possible for the purpose of creating them, difficulty will rise quicker than expected leading to a negative effect. Am I seeing this straight?
4404 2013-04-11 23:28:57 <Luke-Jr> santoscork: I don't think so
4405 2013-04-11 23:29:03 <sipa> that is a concern, but most asic producers today seem to intend to sell the hardware, and in relatively small units
4406 2013-04-11 23:29:12 agath has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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4410 2013-04-11 23:29:23 <Luke-Jr> difficulty rising is pretty much just good
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4412 2013-04-11 23:29:35 <sipa> santoscork: mining will always be profitable to those with the best hardware
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4414 2013-04-11 23:29:54 <PartTimeLegend> Luke-Jr: I thought so. I'll kick the machine that's been running them for an hour.
4415 2013-04-11 23:29:55 <sipa> santoscork: if it isn't, they stop minjng until the difficulty drops and it becomes profitable again
4416 2013-04-11 23:30:05 <sipa> PartTimeLegend: an hour :o
4417 2013-04-11 23:31:11 <santoscork> sadly, it sounds like this will create a situation where off the shelf computers will be of no value to mining and only those with relative capital will be able to enjoy the game as it were.
4418 2013-04-11 23:31:28 <sipa> sure, mining is a business
4419 2013-04-11 23:31:33 <sipa> that's inevitable
4420 2013-04-11 23:31:34 <Luke-Jr> santoscork: off-the-shelf mining devices
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4425 2013-04-11 23:32:42 <santoscork> sipa: I am not clear on something, you stated that these ASIC devices will ship in relatively small quantities. Why?
4426 2013-04-11 23:33:26 <sipa> santoscork: probavly because they are concerned about one larhe party acquiring them, which could undermine trust in the system as a whole
4427 2013-04-11 23:33:26 <PartTimeLegend> santoscork: Because no one has many units.
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4432 2013-04-11 23:34:56 <warren> sipa: sadly even with different owners they'll end up mining on the same pool =(
4433 2013-04-11 23:35:12 <sipa> so it seems...
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4447 2013-04-11 23:41:29 <lnostdal> asic hardware will fall in price as the rewards for mining using those too fall
4448 2013-04-11 23:41:30 fookkcoin is now known as gribble2
4449 2013-04-11 23:42:49 <Konnichiwa> How do I calculate confidence of a transaction? I am writing an API so I cannot use the client.
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4451 2013-04-11 23:43:01 <Konnichiwa> Is it just how many times I've seen it in a block?
4452 2013-04-11 23:43:24 <lianj> how deep its in the chain
4453 2013-04-11 23:43:26 <sipa> no, confirmations is how deep it is in the block chain
4454 2013-04-11 23:43:36 <Konnichiwa> so how many blocks have appeared since?
4455 2013-04-11 23:43:37 <sipa> every transaction can appear just once in the chain
4456 2013-04-11 23:43:47 <sipa> it's the number of blocks on top that counts
4457 2013-04-11 23:44:05 <kadoban> Konnichiwa: not just blocks since, but blocks in the same chain since. slightly different
4458 2013-04-11 23:44:25 <Konnichiwa> okay, so I can store the block count when the tx arrived and check the current block to determine confidence
4459 2013-04-11 23:44:34 <Konnichiwa> kadoban: Not looked at differing chains yet.
4460 2013-04-11 23:44:42 AlmightyBung has joined
4461 2013-04-11 23:44:46 <lianj> Konnichiwa: you must
4462 2013-04-11 23:44:59 <Konnichiwa> lian: Can you recommend a resource?
4463 2013-04-11 23:45:36 agath_pd is now known as agath
4464 2013-04-11 23:46:01 <kadoban> Konnichiwa: why does writing an API mean you can't use the client? you know about the JSON RPC interface, right?
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4468 2013-04-11 23:47:39 gribble2 is now known as bytecoin
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4471 2013-04-11 23:48:00 xenesis_ is now known as xenesis
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4473 2013-04-11 23:48:57 <Konnichiwa> Yes but I'm looking to educate myself in how it works
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4476 2013-04-11 23:49:38 <Konnichiwa> I've already got all the messaging and transactions etc done, I'm on to checking confidence of incoming transactions, then sending new transactions out
4477 2013-04-11 23:49:50 grapevine is now known as Guest3840
4478 2013-04-11 23:50:15 <Konnichiwa> I'm planning to run this on the server, I don't want to RPC call the client every time I need some data.
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4485 2013-04-11 23:54:39 <thermoman> what is the preferred site to dig into details about transactions, addresses etc? blockexplorer? blockchain?
4486 2013-04-11 23:54:55 <lianj> Konnichiwa: so you already validate the blockchain on your own? the you must know the block heights and which blocks are in the main chain
4487 2013-04-11 23:55:02 <thermoman> i remember some said a certain site is considered bad
4488 2013-04-11 23:55:30 <Konnichiwa> lianj, not yet looked at the blocks. I'm looking at the transactions at the moment.
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4490 2013-04-11 23:56:21 <lianj> thats not enough, just looking at incoming transactions is doomed to fail and confidence is -1
4491 2013-04-11 23:56:30 i2pRelay has joined
4492 2013-04-11 23:56:39 <Konnichiwa> yes, I know I need to look at the blocks next
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4503 2013-04-11 23:59:32 <lianj> thermoman: if you use it to build a service ontop, better have a fallback
4504 2013-04-11 23:59:33 <bitcoinxc> im stuck on creating my bitcoin faucet
4505 2013-04-11 23:59:55 <bitcoinxc> who can point me to the easiset way to iniatiate payouts through php?