1 2013-04-12 00:00:14 <lianj> google bitcoin rpc
2 2013-04-12 00:00:18 <lianj> *php
3 2013-04-12 00:00:22 <bitcoinxc> I am trying to open a bitcoin faucet at http://www.bitcoinxc.com/
4 2013-04-12 00:01:03 <bitcoinxc> all the answers I find ned me to operate bitcoind at the shell level
5 2013-04-12 00:01:31 <bitcoinxc> can we initiate transactions solelyy through php?
6 2013-04-12 00:01:59 <lianj> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_(JSON-RPC)#PHP
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10 2013-04-12 00:03:17 <bitcoinxc> thansk I will try it out
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18 2013-04-12 00:05:07 <thermoman> lianj: no service, just looking something up manually
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20 2013-04-12 00:05:15 <undecim> What is "the UTXO set"? (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script)
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31 2013-04-12 00:06:13 <robbak> undecim: The list of all unspent bitcoin balances.
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36 2013-04-12 00:06:54 <robbak> undecim: It is an acronym for Unspent TransaXion Outputs
37 2013-04-12 00:07:18 savant has joined
38 2013-04-12 00:07:24 <bitcoinxc> how instant is instant in receiving payment - how long until the payments are confimred with a sufficient number of blocks?
39 2013-04-12 00:07:27 Belxjander has joined
40 2013-04-12 00:08:05 <savant> what is the maximum amount of time one should wait for a zero transaction fee added confirmation?
41 2013-04-12 00:08:23 <robbak> bitcoinxc: It isn't deterministic, but, if you include a fee, it should average 1 hour.
42 2013-04-12 00:08:34 <sipa> savant: +infinity
43 2013-04-12 00:08:44 <undecim> And this becomes a transaction fee?
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45 2013-04-12 00:08:59 <savant> so if you dont add a transaction fee when sending a payment it wont ever get validated by miners?
46 2013-04-12 00:09:09 <sipa> perhaps
47 2013-04-12 00:09:11 random_cat has joined
48 2013-04-12 00:09:16 <sipa> it depends on the transaction
49 2013-04-12 00:09:22 guruvan has joined
50 2013-04-12 00:09:27 <bitcoinxc> so my goal is to give away free bitcoin - 4 -12 satoshi to strangers - how long until they confirm receipt?
51 2013-04-12 00:09:28 <sipa> the network considers some transactions spam
52 2013-04-12 00:09:46 <robbak> savant: If it doesn't really matter, 1 conf in 10 minutes is fine. Even acting on the unconfirmed transaction can be reasonable for low value or reversable actions.
53 2013-04-12 00:09:58 sensorii has joined
54 2013-04-12 00:10:16 <bitcoinxc> how does the network define spam?
55 2013-04-12 00:10:32 <lianj> sending 4-12 satoshi is spam
56 2013-04-12 00:10:35 <robbak> bitcoinxc: Transactions like you are suggesting are likely to be spam.
57 2013-04-12 00:11:04 <sipa> transactions with too small outputs, or with low number of confirmation*value per byte, and without fee are considered spam
58 2013-04-12 00:11:14 <bitcoinxc> how do i avoid spam? where is spam defined so I can make sure I am ok
59 2013-04-12 00:11:29 <bitcoinxc> what is considered a valid fee?
60 2013-04-12 00:11:31 <sipa> the software won't let you send such transactions without fee
61 2013-04-12 00:11:42 <sipa> 0.0001 btc per kilobyte
62 2013-04-12 00:12:14 <robbak> savant: Fee-including transactions will be included soon. If there is no fee, someone will generally include it in a block sometime - it can take 24 hours.
63 2013-04-12 00:12:54 <bitcoinxc> so if I send a few satoshi - it will get through in 24 hours?
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65 2013-04-12 00:13:11 <sipa> please don't send such small outputs
66 2013-04-12 00:13:15 <robbak> savant: There are transactions that will always need fees. Transactions with low value outputs, or like bitcoinx is suggesting, or transactions with many inputs.
67 2013-04-12 00:13:19 <sipa> tjey cost more to spend than tjeu are worth
68 2013-04-12 00:13:29 <sipa> they, tjey
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70 2013-04-12 00:13:33 <sipa> grr
71 2013-04-12 00:13:36 <bitcoinxc> my goal is not to spend them
72 2013-04-12 00:13:55 <MC1984> have we gone back in time or what
73 2013-04-12 00:13:57 <bitcoinxc> my goal is to get ppl interested in bitcoin - open wallets and potentially mine
74 2013-04-12 00:14:00 <sipa> the people who receive them probably want to
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76 2013-04-12 00:14:34 <bitcoinxc> well in a million years a few satoshi could be vey valuable
77 2013-04-12 00:14:44 <sipa> or nothing at all
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79 2013-04-12 00:14:57 <undecim> bitcoinxc: Then come back to this problem in a million years
80 2013-04-12 00:14:58 <robbak> Yes, please do not send small outputs. They are a nuisance.
81 2013-04-12 00:15:04 <sipa> and most of your clients will have lost their wallets by then
82 2013-04-12 00:15:05 <undecim> We'll have worked out a solution by then
83 2013-04-12 00:15:33 <MC1984> bitcoinxc we had this discussion. your plan hurts bitcoin mor than it helps it
84 2013-04-12 00:15:40 <robbak> If 4satoshi is valuable, then bitcoin would completely collapsed under it's own weight.
85 2013-04-12 00:15:48 oiram has joined
86 2013-04-12 00:16:06 <sipa> if your plan is to use larger amounts later, and just want to test now, use testnet
87 2013-04-12 00:16:24 <sipa> but there is absolutely no point with burdening the network with such uneconomical coins
88 2013-04-12 00:16:34 <bitcoinxc> what is a the minimal valid amount to send? and how does tat relate to the original bitcoin faucet including inflation?
89 2013-04-12 00:16:37 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Sayonara)
90 2013-04-12 00:16:42 <MC1984> i offered you testoins if you use testnet instead
91 2013-04-12 00:16:56 <sipa> the original faucet gave away 5 BTC :)
92 2013-04-12 00:17:05 <bitcoinxc> then I need ppl with test waulets
93 2013-04-12 00:17:08 <undecim> So UTXO is basically BTC that hasn't *yet* been spent as the output of the transaction, but might be spent later?
94 2013-04-12 00:17:18 <sipa> undecim: indeed
95 2013-04-12 00:17:20 <bitcoinxc> but what was 5 BTC worth at the time?
96 2013-04-12 00:17:21 <robbak> undecim: got it in one.
97 2013-04-12 00:17:21 novusordo is now known as NOT_DOG
98 2013-04-12 00:17:27 <sipa> bitcoinxc: nothig
99 2013-04-12 00:17:30 <MC1984> damn 5btc
100 2013-04-12 00:17:36 <MC1984> thats back in the day son
101 2013-04-12 00:17:56 <bitcoinxc> so giving away 4 satoshi is the equivalent of the original bitcoin faucet
102 2013-04-12 00:18:11 <sipa> except it costs the network
103 2013-04-12 00:18:18 <MC1984> its really not
104 2013-04-12 00:18:20 <bitcoinxc> noting = nothing
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108 2013-04-12 00:18:54 <robbak> bitcoinxc: Giving away 4 satoshi is like giving away belly button lint!
109 2013-04-12 00:19:15 <bitcoinxc> as was giving away 5 btc before they had any value
110 2013-04-12 00:19:17 <sipa> bitcoinxc: just to make it clear: if you now send 4 satoshi to someone, they cannot create a transaction usig it
111 2013-04-12 00:19:23 <undecim> So 'scriptPubKey: OP_RETURN' is a special case which effectively outputs to the miners. Or is there a routine used to determine if the output is unspendable?
112 2013-04-12 00:19:25 <sipa> the software will just refuse
113 2013-04-12 00:19:37 <sipa> undecim: unspendable
114 2013-04-12 00:19:54 <sipa> undecim: there is a proposal to instantly remove such outputa from the UTXO set
115 2013-04-12 00:19:56 <bitcoinxc> what is the minimal amount to give away then?
116 2013-04-12 00:20:08 <sipa> bitcoinxc: 0.0002 or so
117 2013-04-12 00:20:21 <sipa> or even 0.001
118 2013-04-12 00:20:26 <undecim> So what happened to the 0.125 BTC from the example? (https://blockchain.info/tx/eb31ca1a4cbd97c2770983164d7560d2d03276ae1aee26f12d7c2c6424252f29?show_adv=true)
119 2013-04-12 00:20:27 <sipa> somewhere around that area
120 2013-04-12 00:20:32 <bitcoinxc> thats 2 censt
121 2013-04-12 00:20:36 <robbak> Yes, I wouldn't go below 1uBTC
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126 2013-04-12 00:21:26 <sipa> undecim: one input of 0.125, one output of 0.000, fee of 0.125
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128 2013-04-12 00:21:33 <sipa> the output is invalid
129 2013-04-12 00:21:59 <sipa> but the fact that the output is invalid is independent from the fact that is has value 0
130 2013-04-12 00:22:04 <robbak> (by the way, looks like MtGox' trading hal had the desired effect. They may well reopen at a sane $80)
131 2013-04-12 00:22:06 <undecim> Could you possibly group several givaways in 1 transaction to reduce the minimum give-away, and-or the percentage spent in transaction fees?
132 2013-04-12 00:22:15 <bitcoinxc> I'm not sure I follow - however I can keep increasing the size of payouts until they are received
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135 2013-04-12 00:22:45 <sipa> undecim: it will still be impossible to spend them
136 2013-04-12 00:22:50 <robbak> undecim: Yes, that is a good idea. But you have to make sure that your outputs have value ex fees.
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139 2013-04-12 00:23:16 <bitcoinxc> value is relative when you acount for time
140 2013-04-12 00:23:43 <bitcoinxc> the time value of money has been good for bitcoin holders
141 2013-04-12 00:24:07 <bitcoinxc> ppl who got btc from the original faucet now have $800
142 2013-04-12 00:24:08 a_meteorite has joined
143 2013-04-12 00:24:26 <sipa> you're right in theory
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145 2013-04-12 00:24:33 <Belxjander> original faucet ?
146 2013-04-12 00:24:41 <bitcoinxc> ok - back to coding - ill let you know when I get it operational
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148 2013-04-12 00:24:53 <sipa> but the current implementation exists now, and we don't know the future
149 2013-04-12 00:24:56 <undecim> bitcoinxc: Here's an example of CoinTube.tv giving away 0.00002 to several addresses, with less than 0.1% fee: https://blockchain.info/tx/9553cb0414423be0ef8231e0a77eedac73a96064c9a5e0e93d127c050121a2fb
150 2013-04-12 00:25:08 <bitcoinxc> yes im building a new bitcoin faucet http://www.bitcoinxc.com/
151 2013-04-12 00:25:14 <undecim> bitcoinxc: But remember that like sipa said, it will still be impossible to spend.
152 2013-04-12 00:25:49 <robbak> bitcoinxc: I've got some cointube in a wallet. I canot spend them. The fee for spending them is higher than their value.
153 2013-04-12 00:25:55 <sipa> bitcoinxc: do you really intend to give away amounts far less than 1 cent, and expect it to be useful for people?
154 2013-04-12 00:26:09 <bitcoinxc> not if I open a store for electronic goods
155 2013-04-12 00:26:40 <bitcoinxc> back before ebay effectively banned ebooks - I would sell about 40 ebooks a day at prices between $5 and $8
156 2013-04-12 00:26:41 <sipa> think of it as copper coins that cost more to produce thna their nominal value
157 2013-04-12 00:27:09 <bitcoinxc> the ebook cost me $5 originally and my cost to sell was limited to ebay and paypal fees
158 2013-04-12 00:27:21 <sipa> except i this case, they are so huhe that they cost more to *carry* than their value
159 2013-04-12 00:28:00 <undecim> bitcoinxc: If you want to get people interested in Bitcoin, why not make it easier to legitimately earn bitcoins?
160 2013-04-12 00:28:04 <bitcoinxc> everything was going great until ebay got pissed off because ppl thought ebooks should come in the main and look like a book instead of an .exe they download.
161 2013-04-12 00:28:19 <undecim> bitcoinxc: Like a place to write e-books and sell them for BTC.
162 2013-04-12 00:28:23 <oiram> People here are trying to scare others into selling or not buying high enough. GREED IS A powerful corrupting force.
163 2013-04-12 00:29:02 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
164 2013-04-12 00:29:05 <saivann> Seems like we don't have a good consensus about Google Analytics for bitcoin.org. If you have any opinion on this : https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/issues/121
165 2013-04-12 00:29:20 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
166 2013-04-12 00:29:21 <robbak> oiram: there were some people talking it up, yes. But others (like me) were often saying that the levels were unsustainable.
167 2013-04-12 00:29:22 <bitcoinxc> I can open an ecommerce store and sell ebooks for satoshi - then my faucet will be a success
168 2013-04-12 00:29:33 i2pRelay has joined
169 2013-04-12 00:29:40 <bitcoinxc> in fact I should ask other ppl to donate digital goods for my store
170 2013-04-12 00:30:08 <bitcoinxc> i assume there is a bitcoin payment processor for magento?
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172 2013-04-12 00:30:16 <robbak> If anyone pays you 14satoshi, YOU will not be able to spend it!
173 2013-04-12 00:30:23 <undecim> bitcoinxc: How about this...
174 2013-04-12 00:30:30 <bitcoinxc> but I cam creating commerce
175 2013-04-12 00:30:36 <bitcoinxc> that is the goal
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177 2013-04-12 00:30:39 <MC1984> i dont think this guy fundamentally gets why dust outputs are bad
178 2013-04-12 00:31:17 <oiram> $250 is too high, but some people claiming it'll hit $10 again is rediculous
179 2013-04-12 00:31:19 <bitcoinxc> i will come back in a bit when I have something working
180 2013-04-12 00:31:29 <undecim> Make your faucet, but make it put out *useful* amounts, just less often. Sell stuff for BTC, and include a note that says "xx% of this purchase will be given away at the [link to faucet]".
181 2013-04-12 00:31:45 <undecim> Then you also have an excuse to advertise your store on the faucet.
182 2013-04-12 00:31:51 <robbak> MC1984: I know! He's got a layer of concrete around his brain it is impossible to get through!
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185 2013-04-12 00:32:30 <bitcoinxc> I have said repeatedly that I will up the payouts once I get this functional
186 2013-04-12 00:32:39 <pjorrit_> it's just one more of the technical problems of bitcoin that don't translate well to people just wanting to use money
187 2013-04-12 00:32:47 <undecim> This way: 1) The faucet actually gives something spendable to some of the visitors, 2) You get advertisement for your store (post the faucet link everywhere), and 3) The faucet gets funding from the store
188 2013-04-12 00:32:52 <robbak> oiram: $10 is not likely, but it is not impossible - It could flash down to $10. Might even do that after MtGox reopens today.
189 2013-04-12 00:33:09 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
190 2013-04-12 00:33:12 <robbak> I agree that $10 is not likely to be a stable level again.
191 2013-04-12 00:33:17 <undecim> bitcoinxc: If you just want to do it to test, then use the testnet.
192 2013-04-12 00:33:26 Gnaf has joined
193 2013-04-12 00:33:35 <jgarzik> robbak, oiram: #bitcoin-pricetalk please
194 2013-04-12 00:33:39 Sealy has joined
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196 2013-04-12 00:33:54 <robbak> jgarzik: OK, OK, sorry!
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198 2013-04-12 00:34:02 <bitcoinxc> ok - I will start the store with my old ebooks and I will increase payout to something useful
199 2013-04-12 00:34:37 copumpkin has joined
200 2013-04-12 00:34:38 <oiram> oh, sorry, I tabbed into the wrong channel (will be silent).
201 2013-04-12 00:34:54 <sipa> bitcoinxc: there's no problem with testing and experimenting of course, but do it on testnet please
202 2013-04-12 00:34:56 xenesis_ has joined
203 2013-04-12 00:35:06 <robbak> bitcoinxc: Just create an account, and pay when it gets to .01 . You won't create dust, and all will be happy.
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209 2013-04-12 00:37:15 <jspilman> zerocoin paper is pretty cool -- http://spar.isi.jhu.edu/~mgreen/ZerocoinOakland.pdf
210 2013-04-12 00:37:20 <jspilman> too bad it takes 40KB to spend a coin!
211 2013-04-12 00:37:37 i2pRelay has joined
212 2013-04-12 00:38:00 <lianj> jspilman: haha yea
213 2013-04-12 00:38:59 <jspilman> but gotta love the crypto of commitments, accumulators and zk-sok
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216 2013-04-12 00:39:57 <jspilman> gotta read about the Strong RSA accumulator -- pretty awesome to prove membership in an arbitrarily large set in O(1)
217 2013-04-12 00:41:11 <saracen> saivann: Regarding the Google Analytics issue, for purely understanding how many users visit the site etc, maybe alternatives are better.
218 2013-04-12 00:41:51 <saracen> Cloudflare for example gives analytic reports, I believe. I have no idea whether their privacy policy is any better though. But then theres also services like stathat, where you could post simple statistics to via JS.
219 2013-04-12 00:41:52 <saivann> saracen : Indeed, but no alternative that protects user privacy is possible with Github hosting (that is what we use now)
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222 2013-04-12 00:43:56 <saivann> saracen : Mmh, I would be surprised to see an external statistics service that have good privacy policies, that is possible?
223 2013-04-12 00:44:45 <santoscork> My bit coin waller completed the sync. Can I ask something about it?
224 2013-04-12 00:44:46 <saracen> savant: Well, given you've be in control of the javascript that gets posted, you could encrypt it with a public key.
225 2013-04-12 00:44:54 <saracen> Sorry, saivann*
226 2013-04-12 00:45:03 <saracen> I mean, the javascript that does the posting*
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230 2013-04-12 00:45:58 <saracen> stathat for example is used for tracking any kind of statistics, so I don't think there'd care what you post to it.
231 2013-04-12 00:46:01 <sipa> santoscork: sure
232 2013-04-12 00:46:14 <santoscork> So what I do with itâ¦lol
233 2013-04-12 00:46:26 <sipa> santoscork: you can receive and send coins with it
234 2013-04-12 00:46:30 <santoscork> It has nothing to do with mining, it's just for sending and receiving BTC right?
235 2013-04-12 00:47:06 <santoscork> ok, silly question but someone had to answer it. Been there too.
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237 2013-04-12 00:47:13 <sipa> santoscork: it also participates in the P2P network, verifies transactions and blocks, and relays them on the network
238 2013-04-12 00:47:25 <santoscork> ok good to know.
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242 2013-04-12 00:48:15 <saivann> saracen : I don't even see a mention of a privacy policy on stathat.com and, unless I'm wrong, they still get a lot of statistics just like Google Analytics.
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244 2013-04-12 00:48:56 <saivann> And that is the problem with GAnalytics
245 2013-04-12 00:49:23 <sipa> saivann: the fact that github lists being allowed to cancel/throttle your site is worrying (though very reasonable for a free service...)
246 2013-04-12 00:49:59 <sipa> saivann: perhaps we should contact them to ask whether the current traffic is a) reasonable and b) how much it is, so we can perhaps start to think about moving it to self-hosting
247 2013-04-12 00:50:08 <saivann> sipa : Yes, bitcoin.org has always lived without any problem with github hosting. But I fear that this might not be forever
248 2013-04-12 00:50:09 <saracen> stathat isn't used for analytics. People use it for a wide range of applications where they want to log and track a specific event. stathat just draws a pretty graph. So while they may read the data you post, you could encrypt it.
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255 2013-04-12 00:58:42 <saivann> sipa : Yes, it's worth trying. I will contact them today and see if I get useful answers.
256 2013-04-12 00:59:27 <sipa> saivann: thanks
257 2013-04-12 01:00:44 <saivann> saracen : I would need to learn more about stathat. Though the fact that cloudflare does have analytics tools (and good privacy policies, I just read them all) makes me happy as the foundation website already uses cloudflare.
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260 2013-04-12 01:03:29 <saracen> Yeah, I'd much prefer the use of cloudflare than google analytics.
261 2013-04-12 01:04:09 <undecim> Does bitcoin.org accept donations for the purpose of paying for hosting?
262 2013-04-12 01:04:24 <undecim> (and other related expenses)
263 2013-04-12 01:04:47 ubias has quit (Quit: Leaving)
264 2013-04-12 01:05:37 <saivann> undecim : No because we don't pay for hosting right now :-) But I guess that the foundation could very well consider the idea of paying the hosting for bitcoin.org, as per it's mission. This way, all donations could continue to go to the foundation IMO.
265 2013-04-12 01:05:37 <saracen> All github currently serves are the static pages, correct? For downloads, they are still being served from sourceforge?
266 2013-04-12 01:06:09 <saivann> saracen : Yes, but the traffic seems to be insane since a few months.
267 2013-04-12 01:06:22 <saivann> and now more than ever
268 2013-04-12 01:06:32 kjj has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
269 2013-04-12 01:08:09 <santoscork> Anyone know why diablominer binary spits this out in the terminal randomly every few blocks? "ERROR: Cannot connect to pool.bitclockers.com: Bitcoin returned an error message: <!DOCTYPE HTML> <html lang="
270 2013-04-12 01:08:26 MWNinja is now known as bitninja_
271 2013-04-12 01:08:53 <saracen> I have a friend that works at github, regarding static pages he says you'll be fine. But for all I know, maybe he's terrible at his job :)
272 2013-04-12 01:09:03 <santoscork> I can't find this using any of the search engines, well nothing pointing back to diablominer
273 2013-04-12 01:09:17 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
274 2013-04-12 01:09:31 <santoscork> saracen: maybe I should get on to the developer on this one, at github no less.
275 2013-04-12 01:09:46 JohnSmith333 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
276 2013-04-12 01:09:48 i2pRelay has joined
277 2013-04-12 01:11:53 <saracen> santoscork: My guess would be that you need to use a different port for pool.bitclockers.com.
278 2013-04-12 01:12:02 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
279 2013-04-12 01:12:44 <santoscork> I;ve port forwarded 2082
280 2013-04-12 01:12:49 <santoscork> some of it goes through fine
281 2013-04-12 01:12:50 <santoscork> [4/12/13 2:50:11 AM] pool.bitclockers.com accepted block 355 from ATI Radeon HD 6970M (#1)/1
282 2013-04-12 01:12:50 <santoscork> [4/12/13 2:50:25 AM] pool.bitclockers.com accepted block 356 from ATI Radeon HD 6970M (#1)/0
283 2013-04-12 01:12:51 <santoscork> mhash: 168.7/163.8 | accept: 356 | reject: 3 | hw error: 0
284 2013-04-12 01:13:15 JohnSmith333 has joined
285 2013-04-12 01:13:17 <santoscork> so it looks like it's working but on occasion I get that line.
286 2013-04-12 01:13:28 <undecim> If I understand this properly, bitcoins are "sent" to an address by including a script that says (in a nutshell) "to spend these coins, you need to prove you have this private key". Is this correct?
287 2013-04-12 01:13:29 wallet42 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
288 2013-04-12 01:13:40 ringhals has joined
289 2013-04-12 01:14:00 <sipa> undecim: simplified, yes
290 2013-04-12 01:14:01 <santoscork> Yes, there is private and public key.
291 2013-04-12 01:14:06 <saracen> I don't really know much about mining, but I'm guessing this miner uses a HTTP api to communicate stuff. It might be that pool.bitclockers.com is returning an error from their api, or accidentically serving their page in HTML for whatever reason.
292 2013-04-12 01:14:23 <saracen> So I'd say the issue isn't like to be with diablominer.
293 2013-04-12 01:14:35 wallet42 has joined
294 2013-04-12 01:14:42 <saracen> likely*. So tired :(
295 2013-04-12 01:14:43 <sipa> undecim: it says: "take two inputs, a signature and a public key; check that the hash of the public key is <address>, and that the signature is valid for this transaction with the specified public key"
296 2013-04-12 01:14:52 savant has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
297 2013-04-12 01:15:08 oiram has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
298 2013-04-12 01:15:26 <undecim> So I could, in theory, create a different scheme to trade bitcoins? and (in theory) others could start using that scheme?
299 2013-04-12 01:15:36 <santoscork> That's possible. I took at the read me which accompanied the binary. I read it all and there were no warnings of this message. I might include something about to the dev on github, will do it now to see if he replies
300 2013-04-12 01:15:53 <ColinT> Any iPhone apps that have been approved that actually send Bitcoins instead of just showing a transaction history?
301 2013-04-12 01:15:58 oiram has joined
302 2013-04-12 01:16:01 <santoscork> what do you mean by scheme undecim ?
303 2013-04-12 01:16:07 <saracen> santoscork: I'd contact bitclockers.com about the error.
304 2013-04-12 01:16:25 <santoscork> good point
305 2013-04-12 01:16:32 <sipa> ColinT: afaik apple forbits all applications that do monetary transactions outside of the appstore
306 2013-04-12 01:16:45 <ColinT> thanks sipa
307 2013-04-12 01:16:49 <sipa> but i haven't followed closely
308 2013-04-12 01:16:55 <undecim> santoscork: Like a different way of verifying the owner of a balance
309 2013-04-12 01:17:09 <sipa> undecim: give an example and i'll tell you whether it's possible
310 2013-04-12 01:17:17 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
311 2013-04-12 01:17:29 <undecim> Well, I don't have a really good example
312 2013-04-12 01:17:30 <santoscork> sipa hahaha
313 2013-04-12 01:17:36 <sipa> santoscork: i'm serious
314 2013-04-12 01:17:45 <undecim> But suppose I were fearful of ECDSA being cracked....
315 2013-04-12 01:17:47 <sipa> it's hard to know what he means without an example
316 2013-04-12 01:17:50 i2pRelay has joined
317 2013-04-12 01:17:59 <santoscork> sips never heard of anything like that at all ever.
318 2013-04-12 01:18:13 <santoscork> sipa: Apple can't prohibit anyting
319 2013-04-12 01:18:16 DrAkaman has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
320 2013-04-12 01:18:29 <sipa> santoscork: eh?
321 2013-04-12 01:18:32 <undecim> I could protect my bitcoins from that by password-protecting them with an SHA hash
322 2013-04-12 01:18:36 <sipa> santoscork: it's their app store...
323 2013-04-12 01:18:36 <santoscork> This is a mac I'm on but the terminal is not theirs
324 2013-04-12 01:18:45 XRPTrader2 is now known as XRPTrader
325 2013-04-12 01:18:47 <sipa> santoscork: he asked about approved apps
326 2013-04-12 01:19:09 <sipa> undecim: the only cryptographic opcodes in the script are SHA256, RIPEMD160 and ECDSA-verify
327 2013-04-12 01:19:11 <santoscork> I'm not using the app store nor referring to it.
328 2013-04-12 01:19:25 <sipa> santoscork: ColinT was
329 2013-04-12 01:19:38 <undecim> Though I think in practice... I would have to broadcast that password to spend the coins, and someone else would be able to compete with me for those coins when they saw that password.
330 2013-04-12 01:19:38 franl has joined
331 2013-04-12 01:19:52 <sipa> undecim: no need to compete; any miner could steal it instantly
332 2013-04-12 01:20:01 <undecim> Oh, I see.
333 2013-04-12 01:20:14 <undecim> I would have to mine that block myself to keep those coins
334 2013-04-12 01:20:18 <santoscork> maybe I got confused in the thread. Yes of course, apple's app stores don't take bit coins. The day that happens, but coins will already have made it way past Cypres
335 2013-04-12 01:20:30 Michail1_ is now known as Michail1
336 2013-04-12 01:20:38 Ranvier has quit (Quit: Page closed)
337 2013-04-12 01:20:39 kjj has joined
338 2013-04-12 01:20:55 <sipa> santoscork: we're not talking about the app store taking bitcoins; we're talking about the app store accepting an apps that does bitcoin transactions
339 2013-04-12 01:21:06 <ColinT> what sipa said
340 2013-04-12 01:21:09 <undecim> But then what might happen if someone else tries to spend those coins before it's "confirmed" at 6 blocks?
341 2013-04-12 01:21:25 <sipa> undecim: they'll have to revert the chain
342 2013-04-12 01:21:32 dragon has joined
343 2013-04-12 01:21:34 <sipa> undecim: not sure what you mean
344 2013-04-12 01:21:36 Diablo-D3 has quit (Quit: do coders dream of sheep()?)
345 2013-04-12 01:21:43 <sipa> undecim: within one chain, every input can only be spent once
346 2013-04-12 01:21:52 <undecim> Why do I normally have to wait for 6 blocks?
347 2013-04-12 01:21:52 Diablo-D3 has joined
348 2013-04-12 01:21:56 dragon is now known as Guest70020
349 2013-04-12 01:22:02 <undecim> To be safe*
350 2013-04-12 01:22:06 da2ce7 has joined
351 2013-04-12 01:22:07 <sipa> because sometimes we switch to a different chain
352 2013-04-12 01:22:07 Guest70020 is now known as Dragon-fake
353 2013-04-12 01:22:15 <sipa> when there is a fork and the other side wins
354 2013-04-12 01:22:32 savant has joined
355 2013-04-12 01:22:43 gfinn has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
356 2013-04-12 01:22:50 <undecim> How might a fork come about? (other than from discrepancies between versions?)
357 2013-04-12 01:23:01 <sipa> undecim: read satoshi's paper
358 2013-04-12 01:23:21 <undecim> sipa: Will do.
359 2013-04-12 01:23:24 <sipa> http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
360 2013-04-12 01:23:52 <franl> undecim, a fork can happen if there's an attack by malicious nodes, but it requires greater than 51% of the total hashpower to succeed.
361 2013-04-12 01:24:05 <sipa> franl: not at all
362 2013-04-12 01:24:12 <sipa> forks happen all the time
363 2013-04-12 01:24:15 <undecim> Or a lower percentage, with a little luck?
364 2013-04-12 01:24:23 <sipa> and without any bad intent
365 2013-04-12 01:24:26 Fnar has quit (Quit: Client exiting)
366 2013-04-12 01:24:28 <sipa> they
367 2013-04-12 01:24:32 Diablo-D3 has quit (Client Quit)
368 2013-04-12 01:24:38 Fnar has joined
369 2013-04-12 01:24:43 <franl> sipa, ah, yes, because some nodes luck out an solve blocks faster, right?
370 2013-04-12 01:24:45 <sipa> they're just the result of the fact that communication across the globe isn't instant
371 2013-04-12 01:24:47 <franl> *and
372 2013-04-12 01:24:50 <sipa> franl: no
373 2013-04-12 01:25:04 <sipa> it's when two blocks are created almost at the same time
374 2013-04-12 01:25:04 xretsim1_ has joined
375 2013-04-12 01:25:14 twobitcoins__ has joined
376 2013-04-12 01:25:14 <sipa> but haven't heard about eachother's block at the time they find it
377 2013-04-12 01:25:15 <TradeFortress> or when a block isn't broadcast and is being held
378 2013-04-12 01:25:19 da2ce7-mobile has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
379 2013-04-12 01:25:20 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
380 2013-04-12 01:25:21 <santoscork> sips, I see, well if it's regarding in-app purchases check https://developer.apple.com/in-app-purchase/
381 2013-04-12 01:25:28 <franl> sipa, ok, I see now. Propagation latency.
382 2013-04-12 01:25:34 <sipa> santoscork: i don't care about apple
383 2013-04-12 01:25:41 <sipa> just stating what i heard before
384 2013-04-12 01:25:50 i2pRelay has joined
385 2013-04-12 01:26:09 Dragon-fake has quit (Client Quit)
386 2013-04-12 01:26:21 Konnichiwa has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
387 2013-04-12 01:26:23 <santoscork> sipa: being agnostic is a good thing, I believe in it as well but I am just trying to help out with giving info for someone whom you were trying to assist.
388 2013-04-12 01:26:47 xretsim1 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
389 2013-04-12 01:26:47 xretsim1_ is now known as xretsim1
390 2013-04-12 01:26:51 <undecim> Where might I find information on the largest forks? Is it uncommon for two chains to be off by 2 or even 3 blocks?
391 2013-04-12 01:27:11 <sipa> undecim: more than 2 is extremely uncommon, and has only happened because of bugs, afaik
392 2013-04-12 01:27:11 <jspilman> not uncommon I think
393 2013-04-12 01:27:20 <jspilman> then why wait for 6? :-)
394 2013-04-12 01:27:37 <undecim> jspilman: Small sample
395 2013-04-12 01:27:41 <sipa> jspilman: nobody ever tried to steal you care, so it's safe to leave the keys on the door?
396 2013-04-12 01:27:44 <sipa> *car
397 2013-04-12 01:27:45 <jspilman> what's the stat you hear thrown around? 10% of hashing power can beat X blocks 10% of the time?
398 2013-04-12 01:28:02 twobitcoins has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
399 2013-04-12 01:28:27 oiram has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
400 2013-04-12 01:28:37 <franl> But if a fork appears from say three days ago and steadilly catches up to the current longest blockchain, then it's likely a 51% attack, right?
401 2013-04-12 01:28:52 <jspilman> something like that would need 51% to "keep up"
402 2013-04-12 01:28:59 twobitcoins_ has joined
403 2013-04-12 01:28:59 <franl> jspilman, yep
404 2013-04-12 01:29:06 <sipa> franl: if it lasts 3 days, it would be a 400-block deep split!
405 2013-04-12 01:29:30 rn4j0r2 has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
406 2013-04-12 01:29:31 <franl> sipa, indeed, I picked "3 days" as an extreme example. :)
407 2013-04-12 01:29:58 <undecim> I don't think that would go unnoticed... Though it would be difficult to stop?
408 2013-04-12 01:29:59 <sipa> franl: and no, that isn't because of an attack - if it did, it would resolve immediately the moment it was known
409 2013-04-12 01:30:00 <jspilman> but with less than 50% you need to 'get lucky' if you want to 'unwind' one or two blocks
410 2013-04-12 01:30:09 <sipa> franl: the only way that can happen is because of a bug
411 2013-04-12 01:30:19 EretzIsrael has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
412 2013-04-12 01:30:25 <jspilman> is there a max split depth hard coded into the client?
413 2013-04-12 01:30:29 <sipa> no
414 2013-04-12 01:30:35 <sipa> but there are checkpoints
415 2013-04-12 01:30:41 BlackPrapor has joined
416 2013-04-12 01:30:46 <jspilman> only every new version though
417 2013-04-12 01:30:54 graingert has joined
418 2013-04-12 01:31:12 twobitcoins has joined
419 2013-04-12 01:31:16 <jspilman> "only" :-)
420 2013-04-12 01:32:15 twobitcoins__ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
421 2013-04-12 01:32:20 <MC1984> theres a calculator
422 2013-04-12 01:32:34 <MC1984> 40% hashpower can reverse 6 blocks 50% of the time
423 2013-04-12 01:32:58 <franl> sipa, but if the attacker had, say, 2x the hashpower of the rest of the nodes and they weren't contributing to the honest blockchain, it wouldn't matter if they had to solve 400 blocks. Eventually, they would overtake the honest blockchain, right?
424 2013-04-12 01:33:16 <sipa> franl: yes, but it would happen instantly
425 2013-04-12 01:33:19 <TradeFortress> if you have 51% over a long enough time you will overtake the blockchain
426 2013-04-12 01:33:21 <jspilman> if a single miner controls 51% of the hashing power, they control the blockchain
427 2013-04-12 01:33:21 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
428 2013-04-12 01:33:28 oiram has joined
429 2013-04-12 01:33:41 <sipa> the moment the attacking chain is announced, it would overtake the other one immediately
430 2013-04-12 01:33:42 <franl> That's what I thought.
431 2013-04-12 01:33:49 <TradeFortress> and they can control it with less hashpower and some luck
432 2013-04-12 01:33:51 <sipa> it wouldn't take 3 days
433 2013-04-12 01:33:51 <franl> sipa, not if it wasn't longer.
434 2013-04-12 01:33:53 i2pRelay has joined
435 2013-04-12 01:34:01 <sipa> franl: then it wouldn't be an attack :D
436 2013-04-12 01:34:08 <sipa> just a huge waste of hashing power
437 2013-04-12 01:34:15 <franl> sipa, ah, I see, they's hold the blocks in secret and publish all at once.
438 2013-04-12 01:34:16 twobitcoins_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
439 2013-04-12 01:34:20 <franl> *they'd
440 2013-04-12 01:34:23 <MC1984> are you talking about howlong to rewrite history
441 2013-04-12 01:34:33 <TradeFortress> yep, can't do it for too long before there's a new checkpoint through
442 2013-04-12 01:34:35 <robbak> people have funds in MtGox, and we will be puttng in buy orders once it opens.
443 2013-04-12 01:34:45 <TradeFortress> txes before the last checkpoint in bitcoind is safe
444 2013-04-12 01:35:03 <MC1984> checkpoints are cheating!
445 2013-04-12 01:35:33 <gmaxwell> Also not really all that helpful. Once you presume that an attacker can do this, he can do it at any point and basically ruin the currency.
446 2013-04-12 01:35:59 <gmaxwell> it's not like doing a 4000 block reorg would have the effect of just stealing your funds, it would rightfully undermine all confidence in bitcoin.
447 2013-04-12 01:36:38 <gmaxwell> And so if an attacker wanted to do that he could just reorg 100 blocks deep every day, and no remotely arguably decenteralized use of checkpoints can stop that.
448 2013-04-12 01:36:48 bitcoinxc has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
449 2013-04-12 01:37:05 <MC1984> i dont think you can do a reorg that big with the leveldb stuff
450 2013-04-12 01:37:09 <TradeFortress> tl;dr: mine with your own asics
451 2013-04-12 01:37:26 <MC1984> lol are we talking about asicminer again
452 2013-04-12 01:37:31 <MC1984> curse them
453 2013-04-12 01:37:38 oiram has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
454 2013-04-12 01:37:46 <graingert> gmaxwell: I thought checkpoints are ignored if a greater difficulty chain appears
455 2013-04-12 01:38:02 <graingert> Was only useful for client bootstrap
456 2013-04-12 01:38:28 <gmaxwell> MC1984: of course you can, if not it would be be a dangerous non-convergence failure mode.
457 2013-04-12 01:38:28 oiram has joined
458 2013-04-12 01:38:33 <franl> gmaxwell, well, the losers in the 51% attack are the victims of the double-spends, but most of the txns in the attackers blocks are probably single-spends, so most of the attacker's work still goes to supporting legitimate txns.
459 2013-04-12 01:38:43 rn4j0r2 has joined
460 2013-04-12 01:39:04 <MC1984> i thought the coin rev files were only enough for 200 reorg or so
461 2013-04-12 01:39:12 <MC1984> assuming it neer actually happens
462 2013-04-12 01:39:20 <sipa> MC1984: they're forever
463 2013-04-12 01:39:27 <gmaxwell> franl: lol. No. The losers are all users of bitcoin far more than the people who's transactions were replacedâ because it would prove that bitcoin's security model to be pratically inadequate to achieve its purposes.
464 2013-04-12 01:39:31 <MC1984> ok
465 2013-04-12 01:39:37 <sipa> though if you're doing a thousands-deep-reorg, you'll run into RAM issues
466 2013-04-12 01:39:56 <franl> gmaxwell, good point. Successful double-spend attacks weaking trust in the model.
467 2013-04-12 01:39:59 <saracen> Off topic, but I hate that "variable integers" are used in the bitcoin protocol. Just wanted to say that.
468 2013-04-12 01:40:03 <franl> *weaken
469 2013-04-12 01:40:16 <sipa> saracen: your comment is duly noted
470 2013-04-12 01:40:26 <saracen> :)
471 2013-04-12 01:40:31 <gmaxwell> franl: s/weaken/demonstrate it as non-functional/ at least if they're not just in the expected range of 0-small confirmations.
472 2013-04-12 01:40:43 <franl> gmaxwell, yep
473 2013-04-12 01:40:59 xretsim1 has quit (Quit: xretsim1)
474 2013-04-12 01:41:15 twobitcoins has quit (Quit: Leaving)
475 2013-04-12 01:41:24 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
476 2013-04-12 01:41:55 i2pRelay has joined
477 2013-04-12 01:41:58 <gmaxwell> saracen: I'm curious as to why. I don't like them either but I'm willing to bet that its for exactly the opposite reason you dislike them.
478 2013-04-12 01:42:00 <franl> Do the space savings of variable ints really justify their use? A 128 bit integer is only 16 bytes. Transactions are what bloat blocks.
479 2013-04-12 01:42:17 <gmaxwell> 0-o
480 2013-04-12 01:42:23 BladeMcCool has joined
481 2013-04-12 01:42:46 <BladeMcCool> is multisignature implemented?
482 2013-04-12 01:42:54 <sipa> BladeMcCool: since day 1
483 2013-04-12 01:43:10 <sipa> in the network rules at least
484 2013-04-12 01:43:14 <gmaxwell> franl: there are var ints in transactions. If all of them were 128 bits it would make transactions significantly larger.
485 2013-04-12 01:43:27 <sipa> BladeMcCool: constructing such transactions is something else however
486 2013-04-12 01:43:39 <franl> gmaxwell, yes, I thought exactly that a nansosecond after pressing enter. :)
487 2013-04-12 01:44:29 <BladeMcCool> sipa: how does it work in a transaction? is it possible to create an address that, once coins are sent to it, transaction must be signed by multiple keys before it is considered valid?
488 2013-04-12 01:44:44 <sipa> BladeMcCool: that is exactly what multisig does
489 2013-04-12 01:45:01 <gmaxwell> but that confirms my guess! I don't like them because they are less efficient than they could be for the sake of being slightly easier!
490 2013-04-12 01:45:16 <saracen> gmaxwell: I have a few reasons, mostly related to added complexity with en/decoding in various languages with libraries already written that could have been used. But more than anything they just seem unnecessary.
491 2013-04-12 01:45:28 quaz0r has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
492 2013-04-12 01:45:45 <gmaxwell> saracen: it is _very_ important that bitcoin transactions be as small as possible.
493 2013-04-12 01:45:57 orblivion has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
494 2013-04-12 01:46:13 <sipa> a typical transaction has something like 6 varints in it
495 2013-04-12 01:46:21 <sipa> which are almost always just 1 byte
496 2013-04-12 01:46:48 oiram has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
497 2013-04-12 01:46:55 <sipa> too bad he didn't use varints for version, nsequence, and lockheight
498 2013-04-12 01:47:01 <sipa> that'd save us more
499 2013-04-12 01:47:07 oiram has joined
500 2013-04-12 01:47:08 <gmaxwell> And if a simple pair of IFs are a hurdle in working with a bitcoin transaction for youâ uhhh. There are lot of other subtle things that much be done right or you send coin to the black abyss.
501 2013-04-12 01:47:31 <sipa> protobufs would have been nice
502 2013-04-12 01:47:46 <sipa> satoshi even said that himself, but it's extremely hard to change at this point
503 2013-04-12 01:47:47 <jspilman> speaking of multi-sig... is it possible / has anyone tried to build a secure/decentralized way to manage larger groups... like in an enterprise setting if there are 10+ people you want to give signing authority for a single key, which itself might be one or 2 or 3 required signers of a multi-sig...
504 2013-04-12 01:48:04 <gmaxwell> meh. anything with redundant encodings is kinda meh.
505 2013-04-12 01:48:36 twobitcoins has joined
506 2013-04-12 01:48:38 <sipa> yes, agree, i'm not sure satoshi was aware of the potential risks of that
507 2013-04-12 01:48:48 <saracen> gmaxwell: If they are indeed necessary, then I retract my statement about "more than anything", but my first point is still valid. It's not about implementing it with a bunch of if statements, it's that some libraries have already been written that would have handed the task without expanding upon them
508 2013-04-12 01:49:07 <franl> jspilman, sounds kind of like Shamir's secret sharing with a quorum to access the secret.
509 2013-04-12 01:49:11 <jspilman> maybe combining key splitting with set membership
510 2013-04-12 01:49:12 <saracen> handled*
511 2013-04-12 01:49:25 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
512 2013-04-12 01:49:56 <gmaxwell> saracen: a library ... for ... reading a word?
513 2013-04-12 01:49:57 i2pRelay has joined
514 2013-04-12 01:50:22 <gmaxwell> IntegerReaderFactoryFactory?
515 2013-04-12 01:50:29 <sipa> gmaxwell: you beat me to it :D
516 2013-04-12 01:50:36 <jspilman> you want the place testing the set membership to never know the final key though, so you can't "assemble" there
517 2013-04-12 01:50:42 <sipa> needs more Visitor and Singleton though
518 2013-04-12 01:51:20 <saracen> gmaxwell: Ha. No, sorry, I mean in terms of de/serialization of the entire structure. Like protobufs. If the varints didn't exist, it would of course be easier to use libraries that already deal with structures that have a known size
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520 2013-04-12 01:51:49 <franl> varints are effectivly a kind of compression. I wonder if it would have better to just compress all of compressible parts of a block.
521 2013-04-12 01:51:51 <gmaxwell> oh well even without varints the scripts can't be a constant size.
522 2013-04-12 01:52:09 <gmaxwell> Also the standard encoding of bignums for the signatures is variable length too.
523 2013-04-12 01:52:25 <sipa> and the (silly!) DER encoding for signatures isn't constant size either
524 2013-04-12 01:52:34 <saracen> No, but such libraries usually expect some variable sized structure - but said size is stored in a fixed-sized type
525 2013-04-12 01:52:46 bwen has joined
526 2013-04-12 01:52:57 <sipa> saracen: that's basically what satoshi's varint does too
527 2013-04-12 01:52:58 diki has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
528 2013-04-12 01:53:15 <sipa> one byte that either contains the data itself if small enough, or an indication of how many bytes follow
529 2013-04-12 01:54:42 <saracen> sipa: Yeah, but this specific case isn't handled by the library I'm using, in my language of choice, so I recommend a complete change in how things are done.
530 2013-04-12 01:54:45 <bwen> are there any ideas on how to buy btc easier online? Because going thru an exchanger for most people thats gonna be too much effort. Is the physical ATM solution the most viable solution?
531 2013-04-12 01:55:40 toffoo has joined
532 2013-04-12 01:56:12 <sipa> saracen: it's a very minor complication for implementing any bitcoin-related code
533 2013-04-12 01:56:18 andyh2 has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
534 2013-04-12 01:56:19 <sipa> saracen: but it is one, yes
535 2013-04-12 01:56:32 <sipa> saracen: it will not be changed, though; don't get your hopes up
536 2013-04-12 01:56:37 diki has joined
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538 2013-04-12 01:57:33 <franl> Those kinds of changes require a "flag day". Like 1983/1/1 when TCP replaced NCP on Arpanet.
539 2013-04-12 01:57:37 <gmaxwell> "but this specific case isn't handled by the library I'm using, in my language of choice, so I recommend a complete change in how things are done" < and this is why mankind is doomed.
540 2013-04-12 01:57:46 i2pRelay has joined
541 2013-04-12 01:57:52 <gmaxwell> seriously, thats like the most depressing thing ever.
542 2013-04-12 01:57:55 quaz0r has joined
543 2013-04-12 01:58:20 <GlitchNZ> lol gmaxwell
544 2013-04-12 01:58:28 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
545 2013-04-12 01:58:35 <saracen> That commented was tainted with sarcasm. Sorry, I'm British. :(
546 2013-04-12 01:58:42 <gmaxwell> oh THANK GOD!
547 2013-04-12 01:58:47 * gmaxwell puts away the hemlock
548 2013-04-12 01:58:50 <saracen> :D
549 2013-04-12 01:59:02 <sipa> franl: not even a flag day is enough
550 2013-04-12 01:59:02 <franl> heh
551 2013-04-12 01:59:04 <GlitchNZ> I got that saracen, sadly you'd be surprised at how many people say that and actually mean it
552 2013-04-12 01:59:28 <sipa> franl: you can change the serialization of datastructures easily with a new version of the network protocol
553 2013-04-12 01:59:29 <gmaxwell> saracen: forgive my ill humor but .. yea, people totally come in saying things like thatâ your comment was only unusual in that it seemed unusually honest!
554 2013-04-12 01:59:34 <diki> which function in the bitcoin code broadcasts say blocks or txes?
555 2013-04-12 01:59:39 <saracen> haha
556 2013-04-12 01:59:40 oiram has joined
557 2013-04-12 01:59:57 <sipa> franl: but the serialized structures are used for computing block and transaction ids
558 2013-04-12 02:00:04 RazielXYZ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
559 2013-04-12 02:00:04 <sipa> franl: and those are normative for the network rules
560 2013-04-12 02:00:07 Ashaman has joined
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562 2013-04-12 02:00:34 <saracen> A format could surely be deserialized into the same structure though, no?
563 2013-04-12 02:01:25 <saracen> For example, say I love verbosity and decide to write a layer than makes all nodes communicate through an XML HTTP API. I could just have it deserialised into the same structure without any change to the way bitcoin handles stuff internally, correct?
564 2013-04-12 02:01:40 <sipa> saracen: yup
565 2013-04-12 02:01:45 <gmaxwell> sure, but then you still have to deal with itâ and it's an _extra_ step that then the next guy after you will complain works slowly in pyluarubyscript.
566 2013-04-12 02:01:49 <sipa> saracen: but you'll still need to compute the hashes correctly
567 2013-04-12 02:02:04 <sipa> saracen: which means keeping code to do the old serialization around
568 2013-04-12 02:02:22 <sipa> (only serialization though, not deserialization afaict)
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571 2013-04-12 02:02:46 <saracen> Yeah, but that could be removed at some cut-off point?
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573 2013-04-12 02:03:49 <franl> saracen, but new nodes may want to verify the entire blockchain, so the old algorithms would be needed forever.
574 2013-04-12 02:03:51 <sipa> diki: ThreadMessageHandler -> ProcessMessages -> ProcessMessage -> ProcessGetData -> CNode::PushMessage -> CNode::EndMessage -> SocketSendData -> send()
575 2013-04-12 02:03:57 <sipa> diki: accurate enough? :)
576 2013-04-12 02:03:59 <gmaxwell> That would be more difficult than most other hardforky things, because it doesn't have a clean flag point.
577 2013-04-12 02:04:04 graingert has left ("Leaving")
578 2013-04-12 02:04:14 <saracen> franl: The structures internally would be the same, so I dont think that would be an issue
579 2013-04-12 02:04:14 <gmaxwell> Because transactions are not ordered until they're in the blockchain.
580 2013-04-12 02:04:26 <diki> sipa:I was looking at the functions called AcceptBlock and ProcessBlock but did not see it there.
581 2013-04-12 02:04:32 <franl> saracen, ok, if you're just talking about the serialized representation.
582 2013-04-12 02:04:35 <diki> will check out
583 2013-04-12 02:04:47 <gmaxwell> saracen: the actual encoding is normative for validation because the data must be serialized to be hashed.
584 2013-04-12 02:04:47 <sipa> diki: those are for _received_ blocks
585 2013-04-12 02:04:55 <sipa> diki: not for sending
586 2013-04-12 02:05:07 <diki> sipa:Yeah like when you mine a block it needs to get broadcasted, right?
587 2013-04-12 02:05:17 <gmaxwell> you could encode in some other format, but you'd have to reseralize to hash to verify.
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590 2013-04-12 02:05:51 <franl> yep
591 2013-04-12 02:05:52 <saracen> Yeah, but the structures you hash against aren't "abnormal", in that, they don't contain var integers, for example, do they?
592 2013-04-12 02:05:57 <gmaxwell> And for what gain? If we were to have another representation for transmission I'd assume it would be more compressed not lessâ cpu power appears to scale faster than network throughput.
593 2013-04-12 02:05:58 i2pRelay has joined
594 2013-04-12 02:06:04 <sipa> saracen: sure they do
595 2013-04-12 02:06:13 <sipa> saracen: hashes are computed over serialized datastructures
596 2013-04-12 02:06:16 <gmaxwell> saracen: Yes. They are the serialized format we send across the wire exactly.
597 2013-04-12 02:06:20 <saracen> Oh
598 2013-04-12 02:06:26 <saracen> Sorry for being ignorant :D
599 2013-04-12 02:06:43 SvenDiagram has quit (Quit: SvenDiagram)
600 2013-04-12 02:06:51 <gmaxwell> (which has ups and downs,â at least you only need to deal with one seralization instead of two)
601 2013-04-12 02:06:52 <sipa> saracen: and yes you can change the serialization in hashes at a cut-off point (which is "just" a hardfork already), but txids of transactions and blocks before the cut-off point need to liner
602 2013-04-12 02:07:35 <sipa> gmaxwell: it would have the extra advantage of being able to compute hashes without deserializing, except the encoding is redundant...
603 2013-04-12 02:07:43 <gmaxwell> I suppose a v=2 transaction could encode a bit per txin to indicate if it's referencing an old style parent or a new one.
604 2013-04-12 02:08:08 SvenDiagram has joined
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606 2013-04-12 02:10:10 <saracen> In regards to the hashing the serialized data structures - is this something that occurs for mining, or pretty much everywhere for verification (other than the obvious checksum of the body of a message)?
607 2013-04-12 02:10:20 <sipa> everywhere
608 2013-04-12 02:10:27 <sipa> you need it for simple wallet processing
609 2013-04-12 02:10:32 <gmaxwell> pretty much unrelated to mining.
610 2013-04-12 02:10:49 <gmaxwell> (other than it happens as part of validation before you can begin miningâ¦)
611 2013-04-12 02:11:16 <gmaxwell> saracen: we use hashes to prove data authentic, and you have to seralize the data somehow in order to hash it.
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616 2013-04-12 02:13:53 <saracen> 02:04:09 <@gmaxwell> saracen: I'm curious as to why. I don't like them either but I'm willing to bet that its for exactly the opposite reason you dislike them.
617 2013-04-12 02:14:03 i2pRelay has joined
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619 2013-04-12 02:14:10 <saracen> So why is it you don't like them, so I can use the reason for a future reason as to why I don't? :D
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623 2013-04-12 02:15:22 <MC1984> woo 217mb of chain uploaded to someone today, it seems to lots of new users
624 2013-04-12 02:15:46 paybitcoin has joined
625 2013-04-12 02:16:42 <franl> saracen: <gmaxwell> [...] I don't like them because they are less efficient than they could be for the sake of being slightly easier!
626 2013-04-12 02:17:01 <diki> MC1984:pity them
627 2013-04-12 02:17:14 <diki> having to wait for the blockchain to download is a nightmare
628 2013-04-12 02:17:24 <saracen> franl: Ah, thank you.
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634 2013-04-12 02:18:38 <franl> Makes me wonder if just compressing all the compressible parts of a block is best. varints are just a form of compression, right?
635 2013-04-12 02:18:51 brson has quit (Quit: leaving)
636 2013-04-12 02:18:53 <MC1984> its honestly not
637 2013-04-12 02:19:00 <MC1984> its an overnight job at best
638 2013-04-12 02:19:21 <MC1984> people are just amazingly spoilt by the 'cloud' and all that shit these days
639 2013-04-12 02:19:36 oiram has joined
640 2013-04-12 02:19:38 paulo_ has joined
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642 2013-04-12 02:19:42 <MC1984> to the point where their xpectations barely make allowance for the laws of physics
643 2013-04-12 02:20:51 fire has joined
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645 2013-04-12 02:21:13 fire is now known as Guest37884
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647 2013-04-12 02:21:50 <MC1984> oh my node seems to be connected to one with a version of "eligius" thats mildly interesting
648 2013-04-12 02:21:54 <saracen> I'd say they were a form of compression. I wonder how well using something like snappy would perform. Or whether the encoding would work better with bits, rather than using byte boundaries.
649 2013-04-12 02:22:06 i2pRelay has joined
650 2013-04-12 02:22:23 <lianj> MC1984: why, its lukes pool
651 2013-04-12 02:22:36 <MC1984> i know
652 2013-04-12 02:23:16 <MC1984> i wonder if i got one from b.i
653 2013-04-12 02:23:17 bwen has left ()
654 2013-04-12 02:23:42 <MC1984> lots of "startingheight" well under 150,000, lots of new nodes
655 2013-04-12 02:23:53 oiram has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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657 2013-04-12 02:24:51 <gmaxwell> saracen: general bitpacking is fairly costly. Conventional CPUs really prefer that you at least work a byte at a time.
658 2013-04-12 02:25:06 neo2 has left ()
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660 2013-04-12 02:25:20 saulimus has joined
661 2013-04-12 02:25:23 <gmaxwell> Though you can have bit-resolution encoding which efficiently works a word at a time.
662 2013-04-12 02:25:38 oiram has joined
663 2013-04-12 02:26:17 <RoboTeddy> would the mailing list proposals to prevent arbitrary data in the blockchain interfere with http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2013/04/zerocoin-making-bitcoin-anonymous.html ?
664 2013-04-12 02:26:37 barbarousrelic has joined
665 2013-04-12 02:26:42 <HM2> every time i see a major channel discussing bitcoin it still seems surreal
666 2013-04-12 02:26:48 polrpaul has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
667 2013-04-12 02:27:36 <muadib> ya its mental
668 2013-04-12 02:27:39 <MC1984> they discuss it mostly from the sensationalist pov
669 2013-04-12 02:27:42 <muadib> and giving me a headache
670 2013-04-12 02:27:46 <barbarousrelic> I just got an "assertion failed" message when trying to start Bitcoin 0.8.1.0 Now it is reindexing the blocks.
671 2013-04-12 02:27:52 <MC1984> mystery currency created by shadowy figure
672 2013-04-12 02:27:57 <saracen> My indication that it would be "fine", is that I know game engines (id tech3, 4, source) all use "bit buffers" and send messages very very quickly because latency is such an issue with online play.
673 2013-04-12 02:28:11 qdii has joined
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677 2013-04-12 02:30:58 <saracen> I guess the added benefit if the serialization was more module, is that it would allow for easier experimentation.
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679 2013-04-12 02:31:23 <gmaxwell> RoboTeddy: doesn't matter, the scheme as designed is completely non-viable.
680 2013-04-12 02:31:32 <saracen> The UDP stuff somebody was working on, for example, maybe it would be better to split the packet sizes up to a maximum of 1500 for latency, to avoid fragmentation.
681 2013-04-12 02:31:48 <saracen> It might make sense to serialize things differently.
682 2013-04-12 02:32:13 <RoboTeddy> gmaxwell: ok, let's take as given that the scheme is non-viable; would a similarly-minded scheme that /was/ viable be prevented by the blockchain data rules?
683 2013-04-12 02:32:14 a_meteorite has joined
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685 2013-04-12 02:32:24 <gmaxwell> RoboTeddy: their one way accumulator things are very computationally expensive and result in very large transacitons.. e.g. 100k or so. they just wave their hands and say "uh.. keep the data in some DHT"
686 2013-04-12 02:32:38 graingert has joined
687 2013-04-12 02:32:53 <gmaxwell> RoboTeddy: but ignoring that it doesn't work, noâ it doesn't break that. They're already only storing a hash of data stored elsewhere.
688 2013-04-12 02:33:01 <graingert> gmaxwell: I shouldn't have gone back to university
689 2013-04-12 02:33:14 <RoboTeddy> gmaxwell: yeah, I noticed that -- definitely not something we can adopt, but it's interesting research. OK, good to know
690 2013-04-12 02:33:24 <graingert> Luke-Jr: you should have bought my timetable after all
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704 2013-04-12 02:42:17 <Luke-Jr> graingert: I know, right?
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716 2013-04-12 02:50:11 <graingert> Luke-Jr: I propose #graingerts-timetable-pricetalk
717 2013-04-12 02:51:03 <oo7pig> Hi. I have a big wallet around 250M. Each wallet Flushing takes around 4 seconds and blocks RPC calls. Do you know if there're any solutions? Thanks
718 2013-04-12 02:52:59 <gmaxwell> oo7pig: how did you get a 250mbyte wallet?!
719 2013-04-12 02:53:11 <gmaxwell> oo7pig: I don't have any short term solution for that.
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723 2013-04-12 02:54:22 <oo7pig> I'm from btcchina. I wrote the code years ago and create an account in the wallet for each registered user
724 2013-04-12 02:54:33 <oo7pig> That's why the current wallet is so big
725 2013-04-12 02:54:36 Hawkwood has joined
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728 2013-04-12 02:55:29 <paulo_> oo7pig: manage your users without using the wallet file.
729 2013-04-12 02:55:52 <gmaxwell> paulo_: yes. thats nice, but he's already in this state.
730 2013-04-12 02:56:05 <oo7pig> yes I realized that but it will be a big change. Can I make the flushing not so frequently
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734 2013-04-12 02:56:43 <graingert> oo7pig: you use an offline wallet for most of your funds right?
735 2013-04-12 02:56:48 <gmaxwell> oo7pig: Yes, you could remove most of the runtime flushing. Makes it more likely that a live backup would not be successful.
736 2013-04-12 02:57:39 moa has joined
737 2013-04-12 02:57:59 <oo7pig> I see. How can I do that
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739 2013-04-12 02:58:10 <oo7pig> @graingert sure
740 2013-04-12 02:58:15 <paulo_> no really a dev question, but I'm curious. How much does a trading platfor make?
741 2013-04-12 02:58:17 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
742 2013-04-12 02:58:21 <graingert> Just checking
743 2013-04-12 02:58:44 <graingert> paulo_: multiply fee by throughout
744 2013-04-12 02:58:58 Odyessus has joined
745 2013-04-12 02:59:06 <graingert> Volume*
746 2013-04-12 02:59:21 graingert has quit (Quit: Ex AndChat)
747 2013-04-12 02:59:45 <paulo_> hmmm not bad.
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750 2013-04-12 03:02:16 <oo7pig> gmaxwell how can I do that and is there a negative impact besides live backup?
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758 2013-04-12 03:03:49 <k9quaint> I gotta say, this has been an interesting week for Bitcoin
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762 2013-04-12 03:05:01 <madb_> hello
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766 2013-04-12 03:05:56 <gmaxwell> oo7pig: it would potentially increase the risk of data loss of account data in the event of a crash. (though bdb is supposted to be durable even without the flushing)
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768 2013-04-12 03:06:38 <gmaxwell> oo7pig: you can set -flushwallet=0 I believe.
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773 2013-04-12 03:09:23 <oo7pig> gmaxwell I think another way is to trim the wallet size. Is there a way to remove the internal 'move' transactions from the wallet?
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794 2013-04-12 03:19:32 <bytecoin> ;;ticker
795 2013-04-12 03:19:34 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 128.00000, Best ask: 129.94000, Bid-ask spread: 1.94000, Last trade: 130.00000, 24 hour volume: 139119.23267947, 24 hour low: 65.00000, 24 hour high: 188.70000, 24 hour vwap: 132.39586
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852 2013-04-12 03:39:26 danwalton has joined
853 2013-04-12 03:39:33 <danwalton> hello
854 2013-04-12 03:39:42 jaequery has quit (Client Quit)
855 2013-04-12 03:39:56 <danwalton> I just launched a little project and I would love some feedback. http://www.satoshibones.com thanks guys!
856 2013-04-12 03:40:18 <copumpkin> s/loose/lose/
857 2013-04-12 03:40:24 <copumpkin> also, I don't think this channel is the right place
858 2013-04-12 03:40:47 <danwalton> thanks
859 2013-04-12 03:41:00 JohnSmith333 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
860 2013-04-12 03:41:07 <BlueMatt> copumpkin: do you send coins back the address that represents the source?
861 2013-04-12 03:41:26 <copumpkin> I don't do anything, but it looks like a satoshidice-alike
862 2013-04-12 03:41:37 <copumpkin> so I'd assume so
863 2013-04-12 03:41:38 <danwalton> right, I am trying to do something a little unique here
864 2013-04-12 03:41:40 <BlueMatt> ehh, danwalton
865 2013-04-12 03:41:44 <danwalton> http://www.satoshibones.com/invest
866 2013-04-12 03:41:54 <copumpkin> talking about a "source" is a bit of a mis-concept
867 2013-04-12 03:41:58 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
868 2013-04-12 03:42:12 <BlueMatt> danwalton: yea, there is technically no source for a transaction
869 2013-04-12 03:42:18 <BlueMatt> and people using webwallets may break
870 2013-04-12 03:42:24 <BlueMatt> (ie not get the response coins)
871 2013-04-12 03:42:27 i2pRelay has joined
872 2013-04-12 03:42:31 <copumpkin> I think that's what his warning means when he says some wallets may not be compatible
873 2013-04-12 03:42:47 <BlueMatt> oh, must've missed that
874 2013-04-12 03:42:53 <BlueMatt> sorry, apparently Im not paying attention
875 2013-04-12 03:42:56 <danwalton> I use the source transaction as part of the response transaction
876 2013-04-12 03:42:59 <copumpkin> you gotta admit, it angers the purists, but it's dead simple and has no overhead in terms of user-friendliness, if they don't lose their money
877 2013-04-12 03:43:41 bytecoin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
878 2013-04-12 03:43:52 a_meteorite has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
879 2013-04-12 03:43:52 <BlueMatt> copumpkin: "if they don't lose their money" seems like a pretty big caveat
880 2013-04-12 03:44:19 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: on that subject, you see that SD hasn't been returning bets? once there were 15k unpaid douglas modified the stats script to ignore the unpaid ones.
881 2013-04-12 03:44:35 a_meteorite has joined
882 2013-04-12 03:44:38 <copumpkin> well, with the standard client, you will get the money back, right? and so people can keep gambling with zero effort and you can keep making money
883 2013-04-12 03:44:44 <copumpkin> it's the electronic equivalent of a slot machine
884 2013-04-12 03:44:47 <copumpkin> takes zero thought
885 2013-04-12 03:44:54 hsmithsN7 has joined
886 2013-04-12 03:44:55 <copumpkin> gmaxwell: I didn't :/
887 2013-04-12 03:45:08 oiram_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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893 2013-04-12 03:46:12 <Luke-Jr> danwalton: flood attacks like that aren't unique, just annoying
894 2013-04-12 03:46:13 oiram has joined
895 2013-04-12 03:47:18 <danwalton> Luke-Jr: appreciate the feedback ;)
896 2013-04-12 03:47:47 <Luke-Jr> danwalton: if you care about Bitcoin, don't abuse it. take deposits and send withdrawls out
897 2013-04-12 03:48:10 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: can you point him to your post proposing the ephemerial 'accounts'?
898 2013-04-12 03:48:16 nsillik_ has joined
899 2013-04-12 03:48:25 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I don't know where it is :x
900 2013-04-12 03:48:33 <danwalton> Luke-Jr: I care about bitcoin. It should be robust no matter what the use
901 2013-04-12 03:48:50 <Luke-Jr> danwalton: abuse != use
902 2013-04-12 03:49:03 hsmithsN7 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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904 2013-04-12 03:49:14 <Luke-Jr> danwalton: Bitcoin can only be robust against abuse by ignoring/filtering it
905 2013-04-12 03:49:26 <danwalton> Possible
906 2013-04-12 03:49:44 <danwalton> i think bit coin stands up pretty well. its the trading markets that need support
907 2013-04-12 03:49:58 a_meteorite has joined
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909 2013-04-12 03:50:04 <Luke-Jr> danwalton: DP's flood is already costing the network dearly because miners have been too neglegent to filter it out
910 2013-04-12 03:50:06 <gmaxwell> danwalton: If only the world were so simple. Robustness is not a binary state. To be hyperbolic: "I care about america, it should be robust even if I bomb it with chemical weapons" .. and indeed, america would persist, but at what level.
911 2013-04-12 03:50:10 <danwalton> also, my main interest is in a bitcoin based stock exchange. something that is p2p and uses the existing network.
912 2013-04-12 03:50:14 <Luke-Jr> danwalton: do you really want to make that worse?
913 2013-04-12 03:50:28 franl has quit (Quit: O Elbereth! Gilthoniel! We still remember ...)
914 2013-04-12 03:50:35 <danwalton> i don't think I'm going to make it worse
915 2013-04-12 03:50:37 i2pRelay has joined
916 2013-04-12 03:50:39 freewil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
917 2013-04-12 03:50:41 <copumpkin> "to ensure that america is reslient against bomb attacks, I shall bomb all its major cities"
918 2013-04-12 03:50:56 <copumpkin> "it's for the good of america"
919 2013-04-12 03:51:00 <danwalton> queue hitler analogy in 5,4,3,2
920 2013-04-12 03:51:00 <Luke-Jr> danwalton: probably not, but please don't try
921 2013-04-12 03:51:02 <copumpkin> <_<
922 2013-04-12 03:51:03 <gmaxwell> danwalton: The low cost of running a full node is essential to bootstrapping bitcoin, keeping it decenteralized while technology improves and while the justification for taking the cost of running it is built by bitcoin becoming accepted as a lasting valuable thing.
923 2013-04-12 03:51:17 <gmaxwell> danwalton: if the blockchain was 10GB on day 1 bitcoin would have gone nowhere.
924 2013-04-12 03:51:36 <danwalton> I'm flattered, but bitcoin will survive me.
925 2013-04-12 03:52:05 <Luke-Jr> danwalton: just because Bitcoin will survive you, does not justify you trying to harm it
926 2013-04-12 03:52:19 <gmaxwell> likewise today, if the growing cost of operating a bitcoin node outpaces bitcoin's established economic importance then everyone who continues to use it will do so via a couple of centeralized servicesâ and then it'll all be over when some attack on those services happens.
927 2013-04-12 03:52:34 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
928 2013-04-12 03:53:16 <gmaxwell> and sure, one piece of stupidity is not going to break itâ but all inefficiencies erode our 'startup capital' faster than need be, and decrease Bitcoin's chance of survival.
929 2013-04-12 03:53:16 <danwalton> I just asked satoshi, he likes my project. everything is cool.
930 2013-04-12 03:53:40 <gmaxwell> danwalton: ...
931 2013-04-12 03:54:08 <GlitchNZ> danwalton: don't worry about these guys - they think innovation and free exploration of ideas are the devils work
932 2013-04-12 03:54:14 Odyessus has joined
933 2013-04-12 03:54:32 <Luke-Jr> GlitchNZ: â¦
934 2013-04-12 03:54:42 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: are you british too?
935 2013-04-12 03:54:52 <gmaxwell> :P
936 2013-04-12 03:54:54 <GlitchNZ> lol
937 2013-04-12 03:55:16 <danwalton> not worried at all. criticism is acknowledgment of creation. and thats why I launched this today on irc
938 2013-04-12 03:55:19 <saracen> lol
939 2013-04-12 03:55:31 <Luke-Jr> the only thing innovative in the topic is social engineering ways around anti-spam - not sure that's useful
940 2013-04-12 03:55:47 <GlitchNZ> There are those that hold onto bitcoin as an ideology that is sacred, and all participants should not desicrate it, then there are those that think it is a gift to the world that should be explored every way possible
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944 2013-04-12 03:56:13 <Luke-Jr> GlitchNZ: there is NOTHING useful about a stupid flood attack
945 2013-04-12 03:56:38 praetoriansentry has joined
946 2013-04-12 03:56:43 <Luke-Jr> all it does is destroy the system for everyone else
947 2013-04-12 03:56:43 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: funny, someone who creates an unoriginal clone of a system which is known to make bitcoin less usable for all the other users.. I wouldn't really call that valuable exploriation. Then again, it's all moot: there have been a bunch of clones none are successful.
948 2013-04-12 03:57:02 <gmaxwell> You can speculate as to why... considering that there should be no network effect in that business...
949 2013-04-12 03:57:08 <gmaxwell> but thats not a subject for this channel.
950 2013-04-12 03:57:13 <GlitchNZ> Luke: you see it as a flood attack that will take down bitcoin infrastructure - i see it as innovation that incourages development on stronger infrastructure that supports what the people want out of bitcoin
951 2013-04-12 03:57:32 <praetoriansentry> Does anyone else use quantmod + R + mtgox api?
952 2013-04-12 03:57:33 <Luke-Jr> GlitchNZ: well, I'll be blunt: you are an idiot for thinking so
953 2013-04-12 03:57:37 quaz0r has joined
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955 2013-04-12 03:57:40 <lianj> sending out 0.00000001 is so awesome genius, great creation
956 2013-04-12 03:57:41 <GlitchNZ> if people didnt want it, then the sites would fail
957 2013-04-12 03:57:55 <GlitchNZ> if bitcoin cant handle it, someone will develop a system that can
958 2013-04-12 03:58:02 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
959 2013-04-12 03:58:04 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: No one is saying it can't handle it.
960 2013-04-12 03:58:06 <Luke-Jr> GlitchNZ: the sites would fail, were it not for the money laundery and/or stock pump and dump going on
961 2013-04-12 03:58:07 jaequery has quit (Client Quit)
962 2013-04-12 03:58:16 Casimir1904 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
963 2013-04-12 03:58:31 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: it doesn't actually take many or even any to cause create a lot of traffic at such a site.
964 2013-04-12 03:58:32 <GlitchNZ> the question is simply, do we bend the people to work within the confines of the bitcoin system, or do we bend bticoin to work with what the people want
965 2013-04-12 03:58:34 i2pRelay has joined
966 2013-04-12 03:58:46 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: Why not both?
967 2013-04-12 03:58:55 <Squeezle_> build an exchange into the wallet, add google maps plugin to find local participants
968 2013-04-12 03:58:58 <gmaxwell> Every system influences people and is influenced by people.
969 2013-04-12 03:59:03 <Luke-Jr> GlitchNZ: it is not even theoretically possible to simply "accept" flood attacks like this
970 2013-04-12 03:59:06 hsmithsN7_ has joined
971 2013-04-12 03:59:06 <GlitchNZ> sorry, i prefer to make software work for me, not e work for it
972 2013-04-12 03:59:43 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: You seem to be taking a rather narrow idelogically oriented view here.
973 2013-04-12 03:59:59 <lianj> danwalton: so you pay 0.0005 to send 0.00000001 saying you lost?
974 2013-04-12 04:00:00 <wumpus> yes, can we talk about development here
975 2013-04-12 04:00:11 <wumpus> too much noise
976 2013-04-12 04:00:21 <danwalton> lianj: yes
977 2013-04-12 04:00:21 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: you have something to say about development? :D
978 2013-04-12 04:00:29 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: he's right. pshaw.
979 2013-04-12 04:00:32 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: always
980 2013-04-12 04:00:34 Darin_ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
981 2013-04-12 04:00:37 <danwalton> lianj: gotta support the network
982 2013-04-12 04:00:38 <gmaxwell> The channel should be quiet when there is nothing to say in any case.
983 2013-04-12 04:00:45 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: IMO, off-topic is only off-topic when there's something on-topic to discuss ;)
984 2013-04-12 04:00:54 <danwalton> lianj: but you make a good point
985 2013-04-12 04:01:16 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: no, people follow this channel from the logs too. It's important to transparency, since we've mostly failed at having important discussions on the list except for final stuff.
986 2013-04-12 04:01:16 <GlitchNZ> I think people coming to a dev channel to talk about something they have develped, and getting opinions from their peers is on topic
987 2013-04-12 04:01:25 <Luke-Jr> danwalton: considering that your spam costs the network more than 0.0005 BTC to handle, you're not supporting anything
988 2013-04-12 04:01:38 oiram_ has joined
989 2013-04-12 04:01:42 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: true
990 2013-04-12 04:01:45 <lianj> danwalton: support the networks and annoy your users that end up with all that 0.00000001 their wallet tries to spend again and making their txs bigger to eventually pay more fee in bad cases?
991 2013-04-12 04:01:48 darkee has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
992 2013-04-12 04:01:48 <Luke-Jr> GlitchNZ: so why are you here?
993 2013-04-12 04:01:48 <saracen> While bitcoin can handle it, aren't these transactions only annoying because it means that there's even less of a reason to run a node, or am I missing something?
994 2013-04-12 04:01:52 <wumpus> GlitchNZ: this channel is really about bitcoin client dev, not the infrastructure around it, there are channels such as #bitcoin-tech for that
995 2013-04-12 04:01:57 <gmaxwell> GlitchNZ: he got an opnion it is the common and generally uncontroversial opinion that people should avoid operating in that manner.
996 2013-04-12 04:02:05 <danwalton> ok
997 2013-04-12 04:02:38 oiram has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
998 2013-04-12 04:02:46 <Luke-Jr> saracen: they're exactly the kind of flood that miners are supposed to protect against
999 2013-04-12 04:03:09 <saracen> Luke-Jr: So they're expected to filter these transactions?
1000 2013-04-12 04:03:17 * Luke-Jr ponders whether to work more on BFGMiner+Mesa, or Bitcoin-Qt "next-test"
1001 2013-04-12 04:03:36 hsmithsN7_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1002 2013-04-12 04:03:42 <lianj> danwalton: isn't it enough to show on the page that you lost? why send him 0.00000001, thats useless
1003 2013-04-12 04:03:47 <Luke-Jr> saracen: yes; the original plan was to make it simply unaffordable to spam with transaction fees, but DP & co have figured out a way to socially engineer others into paying the cost for them
1004 2013-04-12 04:03:50 <GlitchNZ> saracen, luke: that is exactly how the system has been designed - transaction fee's andwhat is 'acceptable' should be controlled by market economics
1005 2013-04-12 04:04:00 <gmaxwell> saracen: rightâ they result in perpetual increases in data storage required, more time to introduce a new node, more bandwidth used, slower confirmations for joe-blow and his regular bitcoin transactions, higher fees for random bitcoin users... etc.. Nothing fatal.. but not good either.
1006 2013-04-12 04:04:06 Pinion has joined
1007 2013-04-12 04:04:08 <Squeezle_> I am unsure if my topic was on topic, should I be in tech?
1008 2013-04-12 04:04:21 <danwalton> lianj: this is helpful feedback. I bet I can improve this.
1009 2013-04-12 04:04:27 <Luke-Jr> Squeezle_: yours is on-topic
1010 2013-04-12 04:04:30 Pinion is now known as Guest81127
1011 2013-04-12 04:04:51 <Luke-Jr> Squeezle_: I think, however, the difficulties in that are mainly legal
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1014 2013-04-12 04:04:57 <Squeezle_> Luke-Jr: thanks was a bit fuzzy :p
1015 2013-04-12 04:04:57 <gmaxwell> danwalton: luke made a nice outline as to how such a service could work which should have equal or better usability but not involve so much transaction load.
1016 2013-04-12 04:05:10 <gmaxwell> (and he'd run one if it didn't appear to be unlawful for him to do so)
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1018 2013-04-12 04:05:16 <danwalton> gmaxwell:where is it?
1019 2013-04-12 04:05:31 Diapolis has joined
1020 2013-04-12 04:05:34 <danwalton> sounds interesting
1021 2013-04-12 04:05:48 <gmaxwell> danwalton: trying to find it.
1022 2013-04-12 04:05:58 <danwalton> cool. thanks!
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1024 2013-04-12 04:06:10 <Squeezle_> that is probably true, I prefer to do the programming first and let other people worry about the paperwork, hence my move to bitcoin
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1028 2013-04-12 04:07:39 <gmaxwell> danwalton: but the general idea is that the player hits a webpage.. drops in a bitcoin address of their own, page respond back with an address to send to.. users sends.. then with no confirms.. the balance shows up and the user can just click click click to play as much as they like. When they're done they can either just close their browser, or can hit a checkout. The site then pays them their remaining balance using their original ...
1029 2013-04-12 04:07:45 <gmaxwell> ... input... and perhaps requiring confirms on the input before the withdraw depending on the amounts and site policy.
1030 2013-04-12 04:07:54 <gmaxwell> so the idea is that there is no accounts ... no sign up.. no waiting...
1031 2013-04-12 04:08:03 Darin has joined
1032 2013-04-12 04:08:17 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: strange, I can't find it with bctroll's search
1033 2013-04-12 04:08:30 <gmaxwell> but there only needs to be 1-2 transactions per user per session.
1034 2013-04-12 04:08:34 dc8181 has joined
1035 2013-04-12 04:08:45 <gmaxwell> (maybe even less, if you make the timeout days)
1036 2013-04-12 04:08:47 <Squeezle_> that is how I expected it to work before seeing what has been built, it seems the more natural approach, temp wallet
1037 2013-04-12 04:09:22 praetoriansentry has left ()
1038 2013-04-12 04:09:29 <gmaxwell> and then you can do very high speed playing.. as fast as the user can click. No transaction fees per play.. and you can also offer games that are more complicated than just a couple of prefab options.
1039 2013-04-12 04:09:43 oiram_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1040 2013-04-12 04:09:46 <gmaxwell> The "ask for a refund address first" makes it work with _all_ wallets, including things like mtgox accounts.
1041 2013-04-12 04:09:59 <Squeezle_> pay to play
1042 2013-04-12 04:10:25 <Luke-Jr> (if you really want to support miners, you can always add up a transaction fee to put on the withdrawl)
1043 2013-04-12 04:10:25 flykoko has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1044 2013-04-12 04:10:42 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yea, but you don't need to have one on every playâ which is the big improvement.
1045 2013-04-12 04:10:58 * Luke-Jr nods
1046 2013-04-12 04:11:05 <Squeezle_> and it improves your odds of transaction priority
1047 2013-04-12 04:11:07 <feral> thats brilliant
1048 2013-04-12 04:11:17 <gmaxwell> and if you're worried about security you can use exactly the same 'cryptographic' proof with a hmac tha sdice uses... nothing about that requires a blockchain.
1049 2013-04-12 04:11:23 oiram has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1050 2013-04-12 04:11:31 <lianj> feral: that how many btc games besides 1dice crap works
1051 2013-04-12 04:11:45 <feral> circle is like that yeah?
1052 2013-04-12 04:11:54 <gmaxwell> e.g. you just take the users refund address and add a counter that goes up with every play, hmac that to get your random numbers.
1053 2013-04-12 04:12:55 <lianj> feral: yep. played several blackjack games (different) sites that all had that flow. no account, deposit in and withdraw when done.
1054 2013-04-12 04:13:20 sebicas has quit (Quit: sebicas)
1055 2013-04-12 04:13:22 <gmaxwell> lianj: ha, I wasn't aware people were doing that â two years ago it seemed everything was account oriented!
1056 2013-04-12 04:13:25 savant has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1058 2013-04-12 04:13:38 <saracen> are there any IRC games that revolve around bitcoins yet?
1059 2013-04-12 04:13:43 <gmaxwell> well 'everything'
1060 2013-04-12 04:13:51 <gmaxwell> Not like I looked at more than a couple things.
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1063 2013-04-12 04:14:09 <lianj> gmaxwell: one year ago i played it on a visually very shitty site but the btc thing worked very good there already
1064 2013-04-12 04:14:17 <amiller> i really wish someone would make some irc games involving bitcoin
1065 2013-04-12 04:14:31 <gmaxwell> amiller: we really need an IRC micropayment bot.
1066 2013-04-12 04:14:35 <saracen> I might do so if it isn't overly done already.
1067 2013-04-12 04:14:37 <Squeezle_> I think the main reason it hasn't been done like that already is the advertising oppourtunitys that come with a subsription, but no one wants to actually see the ad's, no ads and the page would be fast, gamblers nightmare
1068 2013-04-12 04:14:37 <amiller> i can't give someone $0.20 and tell them to go have fun
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1071 2013-04-12 04:14:57 <lianj> amiller: pssh, was just about to restart mine
1072 2013-04-12 04:15:17 <amiller> i wish there was something fun to do with tiny amounts of bitcoin besides gambling but that has instant gratification
1073 2013-04-12 04:15:41 <amiller> donating to a cause doesn't count, buying silly things on bitmit or otc is kinda close
1074 2013-04-12 04:15:45 <spine023u4230> btc needs a mud using satoshis instead of gold ^_^
1075 2013-04-12 04:16:00 <gmaxwell> amiller: there has been some fun games in IRC in the past.. not many latey.
1076 2013-04-12 04:16:11 betece has joined
1077 2013-04-12 04:16:13 <gmaxwell> e.g. people were doing "decrypt this mtgox code" for a while.
1078 2013-04-12 04:16:18 <Squeezle_> it needs atm machines at the grocery store and near places that don't accept it yet
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1081 2013-04-12 04:16:43 <lianj> gmaxwell: #winBTC does that kind of challenges atm, fun.
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1083 2013-04-12 04:16:54 <amiller> atm's only let you connect bitcoin to things normal currencies already do, it's not the same as a pure bitcoin novelty
1084 2013-04-12 04:16:57 <Luke-Jr> stupid freenode
1085 2013-04-12 04:16:58 <betece> Is there any way to create a form of Bitcoin-OTC as a decentralized Exchange?
1086 2013-04-12 04:17:03 <gmaxwell> I hadn't seen that channel. Cool.
1087 2013-04-12 04:17:21 PartTimeLegend is now known as satoshin
1088 2013-04-12 04:17:22 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: decided to rework rpc_priotxn - does it make sense to put the map Gavin suggested on the mempool object?
1089 2013-04-12 04:17:24 <Wayward> does anyone know just what <patterns> vanitygen supports?
1090 2013-04-12 04:17:28 <Wayward> I can't find it documented
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1092 2013-04-12 04:17:55 <Wayward> if it supports prefix-substrings only, or globbing patterns, or regular expressions
1093 2013-04-12 04:18:17 <amiller> i'd like to give a website or an irc bot $0.20 in bitcoins and have htem mail me a post card
1094 2013-04-12 04:18:18 <gmaxwell> amiller: I made a puzzle once where you had to de-rot13 then mmdecode .. then apply the burrows-wheeler transform. ... and not only one but _two_ people eventually solved it. Though it took over a day.
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1096 2013-04-12 04:18:29 <amiller> except even that would require me to divulege more personal information than i'd trust to a bot
1097 2013-04-12 04:18:31 <Luke-Jr> Wayward: vanitygen -h
1098 2013-04-12 04:18:38 <amiller> i'll tell you what the best idea is along these lines
1099 2013-04-12 04:18:39 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I think that makes sense.
1100 2013-04-12 04:18:45 <amiller> is to hook up a bitcoin frontend to something done on mechanical turk
1101 2013-04-12 04:18:56 oiram has joined
1102 2013-04-12 04:19:00 <Wayward> Luke-Jr: still no mention
1103 2013-04-12 04:19:01 <amiller> not an in-bitcoin mechanical turkl crowdsourcing platform - i mean to just use amazon mechanical turk in the background
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1105 2013-04-12 04:19:07 <Luke-Jr> Wayward: try reading it
1106 2013-04-12 04:19:14 <Wayward> i just did again.
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1108 2013-04-12 04:19:25 <oiram> Can't they at least tweet that they're being ddos'd?
1109 2013-04-12 04:19:26 <gmaxwell> amiller: you mean coinworker? or the other side?
1110 2013-04-12 04:19:27 <Wayward> "By default, <pattern> is interpreted as an exact prefix." says nothing.
1111 2013-04-12 04:19:27 <amiller> like you cuold upload a picture on imgur and give the bot the url, and the bot would hire someone on mechanical turk to like embellish your drawing with something
1112 2013-04-12 04:19:40 <amiller> yeah not like coinworker
1113 2013-04-12 04:19:52 <gmaxwell> okay the other side. oh yea, you'd mentioned that you used coinworker before.
1114 2013-04-12 04:19:54 <Luke-Jr> Wayward: it answers your question
1115 2013-04-12 04:20:06 <Wayward> Luke-Jr, where?
1116 2013-04-12 04:20:09 <gmaxwell> amiller: seems really really trivial to make an actual btc to mt gateway.
1117 2013-04-12 04:20:17 [7] has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1118 2013-04-12 04:20:22 <amiller> the real pleasure is in making special pipelines
1119 2013-04-12 04:20:31 <Wayward> "By default, windows sucks" ... solution: don't use defaults.
1120 2013-04-12 04:20:45 <Wayward> where's the "use regular expressions" anti default
1121 2013-04-12 04:20:45 <amiller> i want like a bitcoin midway
1122 2013-04-12 04:20:49 <amiller> carnival games and souvenirs
1123 2013-04-12 04:20:51 <Luke-Jr> Wayward: there's options listed below that change the format
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1126 2013-04-12 04:21:02 <amiller> the campier the better really especially if it keeps stakes low and thereby is accessible to more people
1127 2013-04-12 04:21:10 <Luke-Jr> -r Use regular expression match instead of prefix
1128 2013-04-12 04:21:12 <Luke-Jr> (Feasibility of expression is not checked)
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1130 2013-04-12 04:21:16 <Luke-Jr> -i Case-insensitive prefix search
1131 2013-04-12 04:21:18 <Wayward> hmmm
1132 2013-04-12 04:21:23 <betece> is there any project on creating a decentralized exchange for bitcoin ?
1133 2013-04-12 04:21:35 <Luke-Jr> betece: #bitcoin-otc
1134 2013-04-12 04:21:46 <Wayward> I guess oclvanitygen.exe doesn't have -r
1135 2013-04-12 04:21:50 <Wayward> or not documented
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1137 2013-04-12 04:22:14 <betece> Luke-Jr: bitcoin otc is to nerdy compared to mtgox
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1142 2013-04-12 04:23:31 <Wayward> oclvanitygen.exe is the one that uses graphics hardware, right? normal vanitygen does not?
1143 2013-04-12 04:24:04 <Wayward> seems oclvanitygen.exe does not infact support -r :/
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1159 2013-04-12 04:28:09 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: are we allowed to use 'auto' type in bitcoind yet? <.<
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1180 2013-04-12 04:43:38 <Wayward> what's the function to convert Difficulty and Hash/sec into Expected duration?
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1183 2013-04-12 04:44:45 <Wayward> is difficulty estimated mean number of hashes to match?
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1187 2013-04-12 04:46:11 <cyphase> http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2013/04/zerocoin-making-bitcoin-anonymous.html
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1189 2013-04-12 04:46:15 <cyphase> zerocoin ^
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1197 2013-04-12 04:49:01 <cyphase> oh, i guess i'm late (looking at chat logs)
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1201 2013-04-12 04:51:45 <lianj> Wayward: ((0xffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff / Bitcoin.decode_compact_bits(0x1a022fbe)) / 270_000_000) / 60 / 60 / 24 => 1412 days @ 270Mh
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1205 2013-04-12 04:52:41 <Wayward> where does Bitcoin.decode_compact_bits(0x1a022fbe) come from?
1206 2013-04-12 04:52:58 <lianj> oh, thats from my code
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1211 2013-04-12 04:56:53 <lianj> Wayward: its to turn the compact bits (from the block header) into a bignum again
1212 2013-04-12 04:58:32 <Wayward> is there a calculator that you know of to convert vanitygen difficulty with hashrate into duration?
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1216 2013-04-12 05:00:11 <lianj> i think thats something different
1217 2013-04-12 05:00:26 <lianj> not sure, never looked into vanitygen
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1266 2013-04-12 05:35:45 <_dr> venitygen difficulty with hashrate into duration?
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1268 2013-04-12 05:36:32 <_dr> the process adheres to a pdf, so there's no way to get a real eta, but there's a pretty good eta estimation based on probablility built into vanitygen, isn't there?
1269 2013-04-12 05:37:05 <_dr> eta estimation, nice
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1277 2013-04-12 05:45:48 <forrestv> Wayward, difficulty*2^32 is expected number of hashes
1278 2013-04-12 05:46:26 <Wayward> ok
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1332 2013-04-12 06:36:39 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: can you look into http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/1d149393d8dcbd1593b7cb979d46879ad10b95aa/test.log ? it builds fine for me..
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1348 2013-04-12 06:47:45 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: bad timing, Im just headed off to bed...can you try running exactly as in http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/files/build-script.sh (it build leveldb first, probably needs reverted) and tell me what happens (either script needs changed or more research needs done)
1349 2013-04-12 06:48:04 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: no rush
1350 2013-04-12 06:48:48 <BlueMatt> also, why has github still not gotten their shit together and returned all the pull requests in its api instead of like 20
1351 2013-04-12 06:49:57 Mr_G has joined
1352 2013-04-12 06:50:13 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: are you up?
1353 2013-04-12 06:50:27 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr: yer!
1354 2013-04-12 06:50:33 <CodeShark> how can I be of service?
1355 2013-04-12 06:50:47 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: can you explain the state of your multiwallet pullreqs? :P
1356 2013-04-12 06:50:50 parker_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1357 2013-04-12 06:50:57 <Luke-Jr> it "feels" like there are some redundant still open?
1358 2013-04-12 06:51:08 Odyessus has joined
1359 2013-04-12 06:51:09 <CodeShark> yes, indeed...so let me explain...
1360 2013-04-12 06:51:18 n5 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1361 2013-04-12 06:52:06 <CodeShark> #2124 was an attempt to add full support - but it backfired on me because the master branch continued to move forward, which made it very difficult to merge
1362 2013-04-12 06:52:29 bytecoin has joined
1363 2013-04-12 06:52:31 <CodeShark> the build works for me and I'm actually running it on a couple machines right now
1364 2013-04-12 06:52:44 <CodeShark> but obviously, the goal isn't to maintain a separate branch :p
1365 2013-04-12 06:52:54 saulimus has joined
1366 2013-04-12 06:53:05 quaz0r has joined
1367 2013-04-12 06:53:08 <CodeShark> therefore, I started pull request #2407
1368 2013-04-12 06:53:29 <CodeShark> which is an attempt to restructure the commits of #2124 in a way that is much easier to check and to test
1369 2013-04-12 06:53:32 <CodeShark> incrementally
1370 2013-04-12 06:54:37 CluckCreek has quit ()
1371 2013-04-12 06:54:39 <CodeShark> so for instance, #2407 touches none of the RPC
1372 2013-04-12 06:54:50 <CodeShark> nor anything in main.cpp
1373 2013-04-12 06:55:10 dvide has joined
1374 2013-04-12 06:55:19 <CodeShark> furthermore, the CWalletManager class has been added in a new pair of source files
1375 2013-04-12 06:55:20 sebicas has quit (Quit: sebicas)
1376 2013-04-12 06:55:27 <CodeShark> so as not to be mucking with wallet.h/wallet.cpp
1377 2013-04-12 06:55:53 <CodeShark> make sense?
1378 2013-04-12 06:56:50 <Luke-Jr> so #2407 is part of #2124
1379 2013-04-12 06:57:12 <CodeShark> yes, although in a very differently structured commit
1380 2013-04-12 06:57:39 <CodeShark> 2407 is a requirement for 2124 to work - you can think of it that way
1381 2013-04-12 06:57:39 cads has joined
1382 2013-04-12 06:58:09 <CodeShark> but added in a way that touches the minimal number of source files and changes as little behavior as possible
1383 2013-04-12 06:58:52 <Luke-Jr> 2407 doesn't conflict with 2124?
1384 2013-04-12 06:59:08 <CodeShark> oh, I wouldn't try to merge them :p
1385 2013-04-12 06:59:19 <CodeShark> the requirement is the CWalletManager class
1386 2013-04-12 06:59:42 <CodeShark> but it's been added in different source files
1387 2013-04-12 07:00:22 <CodeShark> basically, I want to completely restructure the commits from 2124 and gradually merge them into master
1388 2013-04-12 07:00:28 <Luke-Jr> is it possible to get the features of 2124 via 2407+others?
1389 2013-04-12 07:00:40 <CodeShark> yes, the idea is to do the others
1390 2013-04-12 07:00:45 <CodeShark> which haven't been done yet
1391 2013-04-12 07:00:49 grau_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1392 2013-04-12 07:01:06 cyphurnz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1393 2013-04-12 07:01:06 <CodeShark> I'll be taking chunks from 2124 and making incremental pull requests
1394 2013-04-12 07:01:14 <CodeShark> 2124 is too big a change to be safely merged
1395 2013-04-12 07:02:10 jzk has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1396 2013-04-12 07:02:31 <CodeShark> so to answer your question, Luke-Jr, yes
1397 2013-04-12 07:03:12 <CodeShark> 2407 is the way forward, not 2124 - 2124 will be cherrypicked
1398 2013-04-12 07:03:35 <Luke-Jr> but not today..
1399 2013-04-12 07:04:03 <CodeShark> lol - were you hoping on getting it all done today?
1400 2013-04-12 07:04:12 <CodeShark> no, not today
1401 2013-04-12 07:04:29 <CodeShark> I would like to fix any issues with 2407 and get it merged first
1402 2013-04-12 07:04:37 jzk has joined
1403 2013-04-12 07:04:52 <CodeShark> then worry about further pull requests
1404 2013-04-12 07:05:54 Guest57709 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1405 2013-04-12 07:06:00 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: I was hoping to get the full featureset into next-test today, at least :P
1406 2013-04-12 07:06:23 <CodeShark> I'll probably add the RPC stuff last
1407 2013-04-12 07:06:24 <CodeShark> lol
1408 2013-04-12 07:06:30 <Luke-Jr> where does 2184 fit in?
1409 2013-04-12 07:07:17 <CodeShark> 2184 focused on exposing the multiwallet functionality not merely in the RPC but in the GUI as well
1410 2013-04-12 07:07:39 <CodeShark> however, after doing this I realized that the two parts should be tackled separately
1411 2013-04-12 07:08:10 <CodeShark> core and GUI
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1414 2013-04-12 07:08:53 <CodeShark> I believe 2184 will build and run...haven't done extensive tests on it - but it's a dead end
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1416 2013-04-12 07:09:08 <CodeShark> that branch is dead
1417 2013-04-12 07:09:54 <CodeShark> #2220 was the way forward there
1418 2013-04-12 07:10:15 <Luke-Jr> i c
1419 2013-04-12 07:10:55 quaz0r has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1420 2013-04-12 07:13:09 <CodeShark> anything else I can help clarify?
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1425 2013-04-12 07:15:46 witwit has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1426 2013-04-12 07:16:04 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: dunno yet
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1441 2013-04-12 07:30:04 <CodeShark> on a separate note, I don't know what the most appropriate channel for this discussion might be - but this is by far the bitcoin-related channel with the highest signal-to-noise ratio so I'll give it a shot:
1442 2013-04-12 07:30:32 <CodeShark> We need to make sure that the serious blunders with the exchanges and the markets do not tarnish the image of bitcoin in the long run
1443 2013-04-12 07:30:45 <n1c> I don't think that's possible.
1444 2013-04-12 07:30:49 <n1c> The press like headlines.
1445 2013-04-12 07:30:59 <MaxValor> and people like an i told you so story
1446 2013-04-12 07:31:05 <n1c> +1
1447 2013-04-12 07:31:07 <CodeShark> oh, in the short term they'll have a field day with this bs
1448 2013-04-12 07:31:10 <CodeShark> no doubt
1449 2013-04-12 07:31:13 <MaxValor> play through the pain and think long term
1450 2013-04-12 07:31:26 <CodeShark> I'm thinking once all this media frenzy passes
1451 2013-04-12 07:32:02 <CodeShark> I believe that the core ideas behind bitcoin are sufficiently sound that they will prove themselves out in the end - but there are people in this channel who could have a big impact on the PR side of things
1452 2013-04-12 07:32:47 <CodeShark> surely the media will want interviews and quotes and all that wonderful stuff
1453 2013-04-12 07:32:58 <MaxValor> energy best spent else where for the time being: until the radar goes quiet any positive pr publicity will be disregarded atm
1454 2013-04-12 07:35:16 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: example question from the press: "Will bitcoin's crash today make it harder for you to buy drugs?"
1455 2013-04-12 07:35:21 <CodeShark> lol
1456 2013-04-12 07:35:50 <MaxValor> probably not
1457 2013-04-12 07:35:57 <MaxValor> folks want something, they buy it
1458 2013-04-12 07:35:57 ringhals has joined
1459 2013-04-12 07:35:59 <MaxValor> simple enough
1460 2013-04-12 07:37:08 Ogig has joined
1461 2013-04-12 07:38:04 PartTimeLegend has joined
1462 2013-04-12 07:38:27 jsfsn has joined
1463 2013-04-12 07:38:31 <n1c> Someone the other day said the bitcoin foundation should have a bigger press-presence which is probably a good idea.
1464 2013-04-12 07:38:35 <n1c> Have "official" statements etc.
1465 2013-04-12 07:38:40 <n1c> "We are not mt.gox, it's a third party"
1466 2013-04-12 07:38:40 <n1c> etc.
1467 2013-04-12 07:40:30 mastertheknife has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1468 2013-04-12 07:41:14 <MaxValor> yea bitcoin itself is just the users
1469 2013-04-12 07:41:25 <MaxValor> the exchanges would be wise to keep their heads down
1470 2013-04-12 07:41:38 <MaxValor> anything they say at this point is going to be used against them
1471 2013-04-12 07:42:04 <MaxValor> they should however be communicating via fb/web prescence youtube explaining what is happening and what they are doing to try and counter it
1472 2013-04-12 07:42:17 <MaxValor> at the very least letting us know they are going down for maint more than 5 mins before they do
1473 2013-04-12 07:42:23 <n1c> Greed is a strong power.
1474 2013-04-12 07:42:23 <santoscork> Does anyone know what the rough cost of setting up a multi GPU system is? I know about ASICs, like butterfly but I am curious about multi GPU. Any ideas on cost?
1475 2013-04-12 07:42:38 <n1c> That's too vague santoscork.
1476 2013-04-12 07:42:43 <n1c> It costs what you pay for the hardware?
1477 2013-04-12 07:42:44 <MaxValor> n1c greed and fear
1478 2013-04-12 07:42:48 <n1c> There is no guessing.
1479 2013-04-12 07:43:04 <santoscork> n1c yes, in the most basic terms of cost, just the investment on hardware
1480 2013-04-12 07:43:18 <n1c> I think try #bitcoin-mining
1481 2013-04-12 07:43:19 <Graet> MaxValor, i have been following them on fb...
1482 2013-04-12 07:44:57 <MaxValor> same here
1483 2013-04-12 07:45:06 <MaxValor> lots of learning going on across the board I'd say
1484 2013-04-12 07:45:28 <MaxValor> to be expected. but folks need to take the lessons to heart, the forex and stock exchanges already learned these things
1485 2013-04-12 07:45:30 ovidiusoft has joined
1486 2013-04-12 07:46:12 <CodeShark> seems like bitcoin could use an influx of real financial genius
1487 2013-04-12 07:46:26 <CodeShark> in the sense of people with extensive knowledge and understanding of markets
1488 2013-04-12 07:46:44 <MaxValor> they are already here
1489 2013-04-12 07:46:54 <CodeShark> we need them doing more of the running of the show
1490 2013-04-12 07:46:55 <CodeShark> lol
1491 2013-04-12 07:46:56 <MaxValor> the problem is that to many laymen have instant nearly feeless access
1492 2013-04-12 07:46:56 rcknight has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1493 2013-04-12 07:47:02 <CodeShark> and less sitting back
1494 2013-04-12 07:47:15 <MaxValor> and the internet generation is all about immediate gratification so lots of arm chair speculation
1495 2013-04-12 07:47:29 <MaxValor> the pros take advantage of that to drive price and volume in their favor as they choose
1496 2013-04-12 07:47:40 [\\\] has quit ()
1497 2013-04-12 07:47:50 <CodeShark> so the solution would be to require minimum sales/purchases
1498 2013-04-12 07:47:53 <CodeShark> minimum size orders
1499 2013-04-12 07:48:07 <MaxValor> well now you are regulating
1500 2013-04-12 07:48:12 <MaxValor> which is anti everything about bitcoin
1501 2013-04-12 07:48:23 <CodeShark> it doesn't have to be dictated top-down
1502 2013-04-12 07:48:41 <MaxValor> I do think their are solutions but you have to be careful otherwise you fall in line with all the other currencies in the world
1503 2013-04-12 07:48:42 <CodeShark> for instance, say there existed another exchange which only handles larger transactions - but has near 100% availability
1504 2013-04-12 07:48:54 <CodeShark> and the orders are executed near-instant
1505 2013-04-12 07:49:12 <CodeShark> it would do a LOT to help smoothen out these fluctuations from gox
1506 2013-04-12 07:49:19 <MaxValor> I think what you are saying in a nutshell, is that the consumer drives the market and since the exchanges all failed in the last 72 hours, more will pop up
1507 2013-04-12 07:49:28 <MaxValor> and because of that these problems will become less drastic
1508 2013-04-12 07:49:35 <CodeShark> oh, no doubt more will pop up
1509 2013-04-12 07:49:38 <CodeShark> this is the end of gox dominanc
1510 2013-04-12 07:49:39 <MaxValor> having one major exchange does not work in a digital world
1511 2013-04-12 07:49:45 <MaxValor> I agree
1512 2013-04-12 07:49:45 quaz0r has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1513 2013-04-12 07:50:11 <MaxValor> that and you have to think how much gox made
1514 2013-04-12 07:50:13 ringhals has quit (Quit: ringhals)
1515 2013-04-12 07:50:21 <MaxValor> their was 10x the volume possible trading that never got to
1516 2013-04-12 07:50:35 <MaxValor> so new exchanges will pay for them selves and make some folks some money if done correctly
1517 2013-04-12 07:50:58 <CodeShark> I'm sure there are quite a number of capable people out there thinking along these lines, MaxValor
1518 2013-04-12 07:51:04 <Graet> still interesting that our community thinks 40% s too big for a pool but happily will allow an exchange to 80% :P
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1520 2013-04-12 07:51:28 <MaxValor> yep the hurdle for exchange creation will be with legitimate banks and not scaring the shit out of them that this is nothing but a money laundering scheme
1521 2013-04-12 07:51:41 <MaxValor> graet that is the discussion that has been brought to light
1522 2013-04-12 07:51:46 <MaxValor> and I agree its laughable
1523 2013-04-12 07:51:58 <Graet> there iusnt a big enough marker cap or volume for real money launderrs to be interested yet
1524 2013-04-12 07:52:02 <MaxValor> all it takes is one person at mt gox to decide and manipulate the market for gain and bam
1525 2013-04-12 07:52:16 <Graet> yep
1526 2013-04-12 07:52:18 <MaxValor> no but the laws in most countries are very strict about this
1527 2013-04-12 07:52:22 <MaxValor> and severe penalties
1528 2013-04-12 07:52:28 <Graet> indeed
1529 2013-04-12 07:52:34 <MaxValor> so setting up an exchange in some places is a nightmare
1530 2013-04-12 07:52:45 <Graet> i'm well aware :)
1531 2013-04-12 07:52:49 <MaxValor> esp when you factor that some banks cant/wont send usd to some countries or other currencies
1532 2013-04-12 07:53:03 <Graet> luckily i dont deal in usd :)
1533 2013-04-12 07:53:26 <MaxValor> well I do, but its not bad since I'm in the USA
1534 2013-04-12 07:53:37 <MaxValor> but if your prefered cash out was usd their are some countries you would be sol
1535 2013-04-12 07:53:45 <Graet> sure
1536 2013-04-12 07:53:57 <MaxValor> fiat is fiat many wash to cash out and exchange and make even more money if you wanted to play multiple markets
1537 2013-04-12 07:54:00 bretolius has joined
1538 2013-04-12 07:54:23 <MaxValor> I think however their are better ways to make yourself money
1539 2013-04-12 07:54:41 DrAkaman has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1540 2013-04-12 07:56:15 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
1541 2013-04-12 07:56:16 <Graet> yep
1542 2013-04-12 07:56:47 <jsfsn> The laws in europe does not seem very strict regarding bitcoin exchange
1543 2013-04-12 07:56:56 <MaxValor> probably wont ever be
1544 2013-04-12 07:57:06 <MaxValor> however you could have banks in a country stop allowing transactions
1545 2013-04-12 07:57:10 <MaxValor> like Israel did earlier
1546 2013-04-12 07:57:19 <MaxValor> but their are ways around that to for now
1547 2013-04-12 07:57:33 lodse has joined
1548 2013-04-12 07:57:34 <jsfsn> Transactions to other accounts?
1549 2013-04-12 07:57:45 <MaxValor> yea
1550 2013-04-12 07:57:48 <MaxValor> dwolla, etc
1551 2013-04-12 07:58:00 <MaxValor> several other options to swap it around to bring it into a country
1552 2013-04-12 07:58:08 <MaxValor> also could just setup a bank account in another country
1553 2013-04-12 07:58:16 <MaxValor> from what I read poland is all about this bitcoin craze
1554 2013-04-12 07:58:19 <jsfsn> I think there need to be more local exchanges
1555 2013-04-12 07:58:23 <jsfsn> Simplicity of use
1556 2013-04-12 07:58:23 <MaxValor> bank to bank xfers are still good to go
1557 2013-04-12 07:58:32 <jsfsn> need/s
1558 2013-04-12 07:58:36 <MaxValor> I agree, but I think that is something that comes with the maturity of bitcoin
1559 2013-04-12 07:58:38 <CodeShark> exchanges need decentralization
1560 2013-04-12 07:58:53 <jsfsn> CodeShark, yes
1561 2013-04-12 07:59:11 <jsfsn> CodeShark, at least not one exchange with monopol
1562 2013-04-12 07:59:20 <CodeShark> decentralization of exchanges is the next logical step in the evolution of digital currency
1563 2013-04-12 07:59:37 <MaxValor> yep was an expensive mistake
1564 2013-04-12 08:00:05 <MaxValor> but a lot of new venture capitalist esp from sillicon valley see this and are going to buy into the system by creating infrastructure to correct it and thus make themselves a ton of money
1565 2013-04-12 08:00:13 <jsfsn> I'm not sure how it would be possible with a real decentrialzed exchange though
1566 2013-04-12 08:01:01 <MaxValor> just create more and more
1567 2013-04-12 08:01:10 <MaxValor> until the volume is able to be handled
1568 2013-04-12 08:01:23 <jsfsn> Low valume exchanges are not good either
1569 2013-04-12 08:01:30 <jsfsn> We somehow need price discovery
1570 2013-04-12 08:01:30 Goonie_ has joined
1571 2013-04-12 08:02:09 quaz0r has joined
1572 2013-04-12 08:02:25 <jsfsn> Or just give everyone asics and let them mine bitcoin themself (:
1573 2013-04-12 08:02:48 <gmaxwell> jsfsn: it's not. Fundimentally the dollar is not decentrialzed. At best you could do is have centeralized dollar tokens that you could exchange, and then you're going to find regulators coming at you with guns ablazing.
1574 2013-04-12 08:03:03 <MaxValor> soon as those hit the mining floor mining becomes nearly non profitable
1575 2013-04-12 08:03:19 <MaxValor> as the difficulty will adjust
1576 2013-04-12 08:03:46 <jsfsn> gmaxwell: Response to my "I do not know how it coud be possible"?
1577 2013-04-12 08:03:51 <jsfsn> coud / could
1578 2013-04-12 08:04:16 <jsfsn> I really do think that local exchanges are the easiest way of solving this issue
1579 2013-04-12 08:04:36 <MaxValor> in an utopia yes
1580 2013-04-12 08:04:37 <jsfsn> If it is an issue; I'm not sure
1581 2013-04-12 08:04:40 <gmaxwell> jsfsn: yea, true decenteralized exchanges isn't possible.. at least not usefully. A dollar in my hand is not the same thing as a dollar in yours. When we put our dollars into mtgox they become the same thing.
1582 2013-04-12 08:04:42 <MaxValor> in reality no. Regulators will cash in
1583 2013-04-12 08:04:51 <jsfsn> gmaxwell: I agree
1584 2013-04-12 08:05:02 <TD> i think the ripple exchange concept is as decentralized as yo can get
1585 2013-04-12 08:05:12 <warren> and yet it isn't
1586 2013-04-12 08:05:20 <jsfsn> I'm not sure why it is needed
1587 2013-04-12 08:05:26 <TD> how is it not?
1588 2013-04-12 08:05:29 <jsfsn> The concept of Bitcoin has nothing to do with other currencies
1589 2013-04-12 08:05:31 <MaxValor> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law
1590 2013-04-12 08:05:41 <MaxValor> when you force local exchanges
1591 2013-04-12 08:05:46 <jsfsn> It is not a problem for Bitcoin to solve that is
1592 2013-04-12 08:05:47 <MaxValor> the bad money kills the good money
1593 2013-04-12 08:05:53 <MaxValor> exactly jsfsn
1594 2013-04-12 08:05:58 <TD> bank accounts form a peer to peer system, in a sense. just an appallingly bad one.
1595 2013-04-12 08:06:15 <TD> so if you can find a way to get people moving money directly between their accounts with no middleman beyond the banks that already exist, that's a big step forward
1596 2013-04-12 08:06:22 <TD> of course the banks won't like it ....
1597 2013-04-12 08:06:35 <jsfsn> TD: Sounds like Bitcoin to me
1598 2013-04-12 08:06:40 <MaxValor> basically bitcoin undermines all fiat
1599 2013-04-12 08:06:43 <warren> banks extend lines of credit to each other
1600 2013-04-12 08:06:56 <TD> my preferred decentralized exchange design is this one: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Ripple_currency_exchange
1601 2013-04-12 08:06:58 <warren> Ripple relies upon complete trust of issuers
1602 2013-04-12 08:07:01 <TD> i don't think you can do better
1603 2013-04-12 08:07:07 <TD> at least i haven't seen one
1604 2013-04-12 08:07:21 <jrmithdobbs> i'm positive much better could be done
1605 2013-04-12 08:07:23 <jsfsn> TD: Why do we even need to care about other currencies?
1606 2013-04-12 08:07:28 <TD> not unless you do as gmaxwell says and issue USDcoins, but then you still need an institution that backs 1 USDcoin:1 dollar in a bank
1607 2013-04-12 08:07:31 <jrmithdobbs> I've not seen one described adequately though
1608 2013-04-12 08:07:37 <TD> jsfsn: seriously? because that's what people already have, maybe?
1609 2013-04-12 08:08:12 <jsfsn> TD: Yes, for adoption of Bitcoin, but not for the system it self
1610 2013-04-12 08:08:22 <warren> Bitstamp and Weex already issue what is effectively USDcoins
1611 2013-04-12 08:08:25 <TD> i'm not sure you can separate the two like that.
1612 2013-04-12 08:08:36 <jsfsn> TD: maybe not
1613 2013-04-12 08:09:01 <warren> most ripple trade currently is between XRP and USD(bitstamp) or USD(weex)
1614 2013-04-12 08:09:05 <jsfsn> TD: It is ironic, however, that we try to come up with a solution to a solution that solves the problem we started out to solve in the first place
1615 2013-04-12 08:09:13 <TD> warren: well, what i was thinking of was a genuine merge mined alt-chain that lets you do atomic coin swaps using the hashcoin/luxgladius protocol
1616 2013-04-12 08:09:15 <warren> or XRP and BTC(bitstamp) or BTC(weex)
1617 2013-04-12 08:09:29 <TD> warren: once you get some USDcoins you can then trade them against bitcoins in a pure p2p network
1618 2013-04-12 08:09:36 <TD> of course, it just pushes the underlying problems around, not really solves them
1619 2013-04-12 08:09:44 <warren> yes, that's the real problem
1620 2013-04-12 08:09:49 <warren> you still have to trust an issuer
1621 2013-04-12 08:09:50 <jsfsn> TD: That just moves the problem
1622 2013-04-12 08:10:14 <warren> If you have to trust the issuer, you might as well just centralize trade there.
1623 2013-04-12 08:10:26 ringhals has joined
1624 2013-04-12 08:10:31 <MaxValor> which is why I don't like ripple
1625 2013-04-12 08:10:31 <jsfsn> A decentrialzed exchange for BTC / LTC could me bade though
1626 2013-04-12 08:10:43 <jsfsn> bade / made
1627 2013-04-12 08:11:06 <TD> this is why i say that direct paypal/cash/wire transfers between participants in the market is as decentralized as you can get (assisted by a new p2p network of course)
1628 2013-04-12 08:11:14 <wumpus> libertyreserve is basically 'USDcoin' (minus the block chain) :p
1629 2013-04-12 08:11:15 <robbak> Q - what is the schedule for the 8.2 update? Any changes that we should be aware of?
1630 2013-04-12 08:11:19 <TD> the problem is if your traffic gets too high, you risk bank account closure.
1631 2013-04-12 08:14:06 <MaxValor> that could be an issue since banks can and will do it with no notice
1632 2013-04-12 08:14:11 <MaxValor> would be bad to just lose your junk
1633 2013-04-12 08:15:36 FredEE has joined
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1635 2013-04-12 08:16:28 BlackPrapor has joined
1636 2013-04-12 08:17:07 <jsfsn> Anyway, I'm trying to get my head around raw transactions
1637 2013-04-12 08:17:42 <jsfsn> Would it be possible to create a cold wallet, fill the key pool up to a million, encrypt it and use it as a hot one?
1638 2013-04-12 08:17:53 <CodeShark> how do you spend?
1639 2013-04-12 08:17:55 <jsfsn> Can it create raw transactions unencrypted?
1640 2013-04-12 08:18:11 <CodeShark> how do you sign the transactions without the keys?
1641 2013-04-12 08:18:12 <jsfsn> CodeShark, you take the raw transaction created by the hot one, move it to the cold and sign it and back
1642 2013-04-12 08:18:42 <jsfsn> ie. the decryption key never gets online
1643 2013-04-12 08:18:49 <CodeShark> yes, you can do that - although I'm not sure I'd call that a hot wallet
1644 2013-04-12 08:19:10 <jsfsn> No, I probably call it a cold one, but for this explination I found it simplier (:
1645 2013-04-12 08:19:36 <jsfsn> Is it a stable solution?
1646 2013-04-12 08:19:52 <jsfsn> as long as the keypool does not need to be extended
1647 2013-04-12 08:19:52 <CodeShark> you still have the bottleneck of having to send the transactions to the offline machine for signing
1648 2013-04-12 08:20:04 <CodeShark> computing the inputs and outputs to the transaction is the cheap part
1649 2013-04-12 08:20:05 <jsfsn> Yes
1650 2013-04-12 08:20:34 <CodeShark> so I'm not sure that really solves much of the problem
1651 2013-04-12 08:21:00 DarkGhost` has quit (Changing host)
1652 2013-04-12 08:21:00 DarkGhost` has joined
1653 2013-04-12 08:21:19 <jsfsn> Well, it solves the problem the server with the hot wallet being hacked
1654 2013-04-12 08:21:23 <jsfsn> "hot" that is
1655 2013-04-12 08:21:24 <CodeShark> the purpose of what I would call a hot wallet is to allow for quick processing of payments and withdrawals - without the bottleneck of offline signing
1656 2013-04-12 08:21:45 <jsfsn> A hot wallet will exist as well
1657 2013-04-12 08:22:03 <jsfsn> This procedure is to fill up the real hot wallet with funds
1658 2013-04-12 08:22:04 grazs has joined
1659 2013-04-12 08:22:23 ringhals has quit (Quit: ringhals)
1660 2013-04-12 08:22:45 <jsfsn> I realize that there might be a better solution though
1661 2013-04-12 08:23:07 <warren> Put the keys on a computer that is firewall limited to do only ONE thing on the network, sync the block chain. Is that good enough?
1662 2013-04-12 08:23:50 <jrmithdobbs> no
1663 2013-04-12 08:23:55 <jrmithdobbs> man wipe
1664 2013-04-12 08:24:20 <jrmithdobbs> if it's not installed and you don't have access to ubuntu manpages it's worth installing just to read
1665 2013-04-12 08:24:23 <jrmithdobbs> fyi
1666 2013-04-12 08:24:38 <jrmithdobbs> (best.man.page.ever.)
1667 2013-04-12 08:24:44 sebicas_ has joined
1668 2013-04-12 08:25:05 <jrmithdobbs> warren: semi-serious re: relevence.
1669 2013-04-12 08:25:10 <warren> (how is this relevant?)
1670 2013-04-12 08:25:32 <jrmithdobbs> it addresses your question directly, believe or not, read it
1671 2013-04-12 08:26:36 <jrmithdobbs> warren: http://linux.die.net/man/1/wipe
1672 2013-04-12 08:26:50 <warren> I'm reading it. I don't see how this is relevant.
1673 2013-04-12 08:27:09 BlackPrapor has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1674 2013-04-12 08:27:45 <jrmithdobbs> did you not get to the DHS conspiracy theory part yet?
1675 2013-04-12 08:27:58 <jrmithdobbs> re: tampered with hardware?
1676 2013-04-12 08:28:21 sebicas_ has left ()
1677 2013-04-12 08:28:27 <jrmithdobbs> the guy's a bit nuts (that's why it's entertaining) but his points are valid
1678 2013-04-12 08:28:45 <warren> If you lose physical control all bets are off.
1679 2013-04-12 08:28:58 <jrmithdobbs> you never had it to lose, is the point.
1680 2013-04-12 08:29:05 <jrmithdobbs> so what are you betting on? :)
1681 2013-04-12 08:31:46 <warren> If you lose physical control all bets are off.
1682 2013-04-12 08:35:01 hmmmstrange is now known as Litecoinsucks
1683 2013-04-12 08:35:03 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
1684 2013-04-12 08:35:26 <warren> btw, does the reference client let you symlink or bind mount your wallet.dat to a different directory?
1685 2013-04-12 08:35:27 Litecoinsucks is now known as hmmmstrange
1686 2013-04-12 08:35:52 <warren> (This sort of thing breaks in other apps because they create a new file and rename.)
1687 2013-04-12 08:36:31 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
1688 2013-04-12 08:36:33 viperhr has joined
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1696 2013-04-12 08:43:48 <pjorrit_> wow love that wipe man page :)
1697 2013-04-12 08:45:05 sgstair has joined
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1699 2013-04-12 08:46:01 qdii has joined
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1702 2013-04-12 08:46:50 <jsfsn> warren: I'm not sure I like a cold wallet to have internet access at all
1703 2013-04-12 08:47:19 kalleboo has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
1704 2013-04-12 08:47:20 berni23 has joined
1705 2013-04-12 08:47:20 <warren> jsfsn: doesn't need internet access, only access to a node
1706 2013-04-12 08:47:22 berni23 has left ()
1707 2013-04-12 08:47:31 <warren> jsfsn: and that's the only permitted network traffic
1708 2013-04-12 08:48:00 <jsfsn> It still needs to be "online"
1709 2013-04-12 08:48:22 <sipa> real cold storage isn't connected to any network
1710 2013-04-12 08:48:32 <jsfsn> exactly
1711 2013-04-12 08:48:40 <sipa> you create transaction-to-be-signed on another machine
1712 2013-04-12 08:48:52 <sipa> transport them without network to the cold storage
1713 2013-04-12 08:48:54 <sipa> sign them
1714 2013-04-12 08:48:58 <sipa> transport them back
1715 2013-04-12 08:48:59 <jsfsn> Thats my thought as well
1716 2013-04-12 08:49:02 <sipa> and broadcast them
1717 2013-04-12 08:49:18 <jsfsn> And just keep the key pool pregenerated
1718 2013-04-12 08:49:27 <jsfsn> Are there other issues than that?
1719 2013-04-12 08:49:32 <sipa> use a client that has deterministic wallets
1720 2013-04-12 08:50:26 <warren> can one instance of the deterministic wallet be public key only?
1721 2013-04-12 08:50:31 <jsfsn> Armory then, is it wise to not use the reference client in production?
1722 2013-04-12 08:50:42 <jsfsn> warren: Yes
1723 2013-04-12 08:50:55 <sipa> warren: type-2 deterministic wallets can, which is the only type that is actually used
1724 2013-04-12 08:50:55 <gmaxwell> you can't use armory without the reference software.
1725 2013-04-12 08:51:11 <warren> that sounds great
1726 2013-04-12 08:51:15 <jsfsn> gmaxwell: *only* the reference client that is
1727 2013-04-12 08:51:47 tg has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1728 2013-04-12 08:52:04 <gmaxwell> for a manual totally offline wallet? It doesn't really facilitate that use case today.
1729 2013-04-12 08:52:17 _anon has joined
1730 2013-04-12 08:52:20 <gmaxwell> you can do it, but it's a bit kludgy.
1731 2013-04-12 08:52:35 qdii has left ()
1732 2013-04-12 08:52:47 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1733 2013-04-12 08:52:59 <warren> There's a thread on trolltalk, it sounds like people's server-side stored blockchain.info wallets are being brute forced cracked. People with weaker passwords are admitting it. Given you have no rate limit in brute forcing a copy of the encrypted wallet, if their encrypted wallet storage has been copied then many are at risk.
1734 2013-04-12 08:53:09 <warren> apparently many wallets were broken and sent out in a single 25KB tx
1735 2013-04-12 08:53:19 <warren> 108 BTC
1736 2013-04-12 08:54:46 <warren> I have a bunch of previously used keys in blockchain wallet. I won't reuse them. Now I need a solution to keep them in retirement but to be notified if something comes in.
1737 2013-04-12 08:55:36 Casimir1904 has joined
1738 2013-04-12 08:56:00 <CodeShark> that application has actually been at the forefront of most of my involvement in bitcoin development, warren :p
1739 2013-04-12 08:56:38 <CodeShark> or not that exact use case - but the ability to monitor specific keys and be alerted
1740 2013-04-12 08:56:54 <warren> oh? in which app?
1741 2013-04-12 08:57:27 <CodeShark> I'm currently using this in my projects: https://github.com/CodeShark/CoinClasses/tree/master/examples/listener2
1742 2013-04-12 08:57:41 <CodeShark> I attach a filter to it and some sort of streaming/queue/messaging server
1743 2013-04-12 08:58:31 <CodeShark> then I connect it to a trusted bitcoind instance via p2p
1744 2013-04-12 08:59:30 tg has joined
1745 2013-04-12 08:59:51 <TD> warren: i was wondering about the anti-brute forcing logic there for a long time. can you obtain a wallet using just a username? or username+password too ...
1746 2013-04-12 09:00:09 <TD> anti-bruteforcing for passwords is a remarkably hard problem, especially if you don't want to let people DoS each others accounts
1747 2013-04-12 09:01:43 <warren> TD: yes, with just a username
1748 2013-04-12 09:01:46 _anon has quit (Quit: _anon)
1749 2013-04-12 09:02:10 <warren> there's a way to use blockchain.info without syncing your wallet to the server, I think
1750 2013-04-12 09:02:20 <warren> I previously assumed "eh, nobody could know this username"
1751 2013-04-12 09:02:30 <warren> but *one* compromise of the server can copy them all
1752 2013-04-12 09:02:45 jonass has joined
1753 2013-04-12 09:02:51 <TD> just a username?
1754 2013-04-12 09:02:55 <TD> uhhh ... that's not good
1755 2013-04-12 09:02:58 ThomasV has joined
1756 2013-04-12 09:03:07 <TD> i wonder how the wallets are encrypted. what kind of kdf they're using.
1757 2013-04-12 09:03:13 <warren> you type in a username and password. It downloads the encrypted wallet and opens it locally.
1758 2013-04-12 09:03:22 <TD> the server doesn't check the password
1759 2013-04-12 09:03:26 <CodeShark> yeah, I thought it was all browser-based
1760 2013-04-12 09:03:26 <warren> nope
1761 2013-04-12 09:03:45 <warren> It has some ind of 2nd factor login, but I'm not sure what that does
1762 2013-04-12 09:03:51 <TD> i suppose it can't. otherwise they'd have the users passwords and could decrypt the wallets indeed.
1763 2013-04-12 09:03:52 <TD> ok
1764 2013-04-12 09:04:05 <jonass> can anyone help creating a Qt4.8 Kit in QTCreator 2.7 (mac)?
1765 2013-04-12 09:04:23 Kyanayk has joined
1766 2013-04-12 09:04:44 <warren> I like blockchain's implementation and functionality. If I started a new account that was *never* uploaded to the server it might be just fine.
1767 2013-04-12 09:04:45 <CodeShark> so the exploit is only for weak passwords? i.e. dictionary attacks?
1768 2013-04-12 09:04:50 <warren> It lets you download their app to run locally.
1769 2013-04-12 09:05:07 <warren> exploit is brute forcing encrypted wallets in general
1770 2013-04-12 09:05:15 <warren> if you stolen many wallets
1771 2013-04-12 09:05:31 <warren> the cost of cracking them is likely much cheaper than the coins inside
1772 2013-04-12 09:05:40 <CodeShark> sure
1773 2013-04-12 09:05:55 <CodeShark> well, you'll probably crack at least a couple
1774 2013-04-12 09:05:58 <TD> it shouldn't be possible to brute force encrypted wallets though, unless you used a password like "passwodr"
1775 2013-04-12 09:06:02 <CodeShark> even if you haven't stolen that many :p
1776 2013-04-12 09:06:10 <TD> but i guess if the KDF isn't strong enough, it could be an issue
1777 2013-04-12 09:06:15 <TD> and blockchain has to calculate it in javascript
1778 2013-04-12 09:06:17 <warren> the complaints in forums were dictoinary words plus number type of passwords
1779 2013-04-12 09:06:20 <TD> so i suppose it must be somewhat weaker than native code
1780 2013-04-12 09:06:25 <TD> hmm
1781 2013-04-12 09:06:27 taha has joined
1782 2013-04-12 09:06:27 <TD> yeah. ok.
1783 2013-04-12 09:06:57 <warren> still, that scared me enough that I won't put money anymore. I rather not give anyone the opportunity to brute force my key.
1784 2013-04-12 09:07:06 <TD> things are so crazy lately. massive ddos attacks against the exchanges, the pools, brute forcing of wallets. sigh. i wish bitcoin would scale up slowly
1785 2013-04-12 09:07:18 <warren> it gets worse!
1786 2013-04-12 09:07:21 <TD> warren: how to manage backups of wallets is something that the community still hasn't really nailed, for sure
1787 2013-04-12 09:07:27 <CodeShark> even with a good KDF, if you've got a thousand wallets, you can get 1000 times the cracking throughput since testing the key on all of them is cheap
1788 2013-04-12 09:07:38 <TD> CodeShark: they're supposed to be salted to prevent that. no?
1789 2013-04-12 09:07:39 <warren> XSS expoits on random links in BTC-e trollbox stole 34 bitcoins
1790 2013-04-12 09:07:51 <CodeShark> I would think so, TD - haven't looked at the source
1791 2013-04-12 09:07:52 <TD> warren: that looked more like a generic exploit kit rather than XSS
1792 2013-04-12 09:08:13 <CodeShark> I mean, I would think so if it were properly implemented
1793 2013-04-12 09:08:45 <warren> I'm thinking to put most of my coins in cold storage safe deposit box. so I don't think about trading.
1794 2013-04-12 09:09:47 <TD> it looks like b.i might be using 10 rounds of sha256 as their kdf
1795 2013-04-12 09:10:02 <TD> https://github.com/blockchain/My-Wallet/blob/master/wallet.js#L30
1796 2013-04-12 09:10:51 <jonass> anyone time for help gettint Qt4 Kit ready in qtcreator 2.7?
1797 2013-04-12 09:11:15 ringhals has joined
1798 2013-04-12 09:11:40 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1799 2013-04-12 09:12:51 <CodeShark> salted, TD?
1800 2013-04-12 09:12:53 <CodeShark> hm
1801 2013-04-12 09:12:55 <kadoban> TD: huh...if that's true, isn't that quite low?
1802 2013-04-12 09:12:55 <CodeShark> let me look
1803 2013-04-12 09:13:11 <TD> i might be wrong, it's a bit hard to follow
1804 2013-04-12 09:13:14 <TD> i'm still looking
1805 2013-04-12 09:13:37 <CodeShark> lines 253-257?
1806 2013-04-12 09:13:53 <TD> kadoban: 10 rounds of sha256 is not something that's going to stop password brute forcing, no. the new wallet encryption in bitcoinj uses scrypt which is supposed to be much better and a very large number of rounds, such that it takes JIT compiled java (i.e. native code) a few seconds
1807 2013-04-12 09:14:01 <CodeShark> var round_data = Crypto.SHA256(sharedKey + dpassword, {asBytes: true});
1808 2013-04-12 09:14:11 <TD> well i'm not sure what "double encryption" is meant to be
1809 2013-04-12 09:14:33 <TD> line 2204
1810 2013-04-12 09:14:45 <TD> it's sending the password to some crypto library and talking about pbkdf2
1811 2013-04-12 09:14:58 <CodeShark> where does sharedKey come from?
1812 2013-04-12 09:15:43 <TD> https://github.com/blockchain/My-Wallet/blob/master/bitcoinjs-lib/src/crypto-js/pbkdf2.js
1813 2013-04-12 09:15:44 <TD> yeah
1814 2013-04-12 09:15:48 <TD> looks like 10 rounds of sha1 even
1815 2013-04-12 09:15:50 <TD> not sure
1816 2013-04-12 09:16:30 <CodeShark> line 3565 sharedKey = body.data('sharedkey');
1817 2013-04-12 09:16:41 <TD> kadoban: that said apparently litecoin managed to stimulate the development of scrypt GPU acceleration, so perhaps it's not quite as strong as we'd hoped.
1818 2013-04-12 09:16:51 <TD> kadoban: which is annoying.
1819 2013-04-12 09:17:22 <TD> kadoban: well, client-side wallet encryption is only a short term thing anyway. longer term the only solution is either that people use secure operating systems or that they use secure hardware like trezor
1820 2013-04-12 09:17:24 <CodeShark> it seems the problem with litecoin's use of scrypt is that difficulty is set the same way as with bitcoin rather than by upping the memory requirements on the algorithm
1821 2013-04-12 09:17:26 <kadoban> TD: heh, ya that was maybe short sighted. ugh on the 10 rounds though, maybe javascript is too slow on some browsers for more, but man would i not trust that
1822 2013-04-12 09:17:39 <TD> but in the meantime it could cause a lot of pain
1823 2013-04-12 09:17:40 <CodeShark> there's a target hash, a valid hash must be smaller than that
1824 2013-04-12 09:17:41 jonass has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1825 2013-04-12 09:17:48 Konnichiwa has joined
1826 2013-04-12 09:17:55 <CodeShark> the memory requirements or iterations or other parameters to the scrypt algorithm are hard-coded
1827 2013-04-12 09:18:13 <kadoban> of course i guess if you use a /strong/ passphrase it's probably fine
1828 2013-04-12 09:18:26 <CodeShark> of course, if they weren't it would make verification harder as well as mining
1829 2013-04-12 09:18:52 <CodeShark> but the benefits of scrypt over sha256 in expense of hardware is mostly in the memory requirements
1830 2013-04-12 09:19:11 <CodeShark> not in the target hash
1831 2013-04-12 09:19:24 <CodeShark> I mean, in increasing memory requirements
1832 2013-04-12 09:19:28 <CodeShark> to increase difficulty
1833 2013-04-12 09:19:52 <TD> yes, i haven't looked at how the gpu scrypt acceleration works
1834 2013-04-12 09:20:09 <TD> gfx cards have so much texture mem these days i'm not sure you can really build a hashing algorithm that is robust against it
1835 2013-04-12 09:22:26 pooler has joined
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1837 2013-04-12 09:25:09 Odyessus has joined
1838 2013-04-12 09:25:32 <wumpus> you'd want some algorithm that uses data structures with lots of levels of indirection, and wildly data dependent control flow
1839 2013-04-12 09:25:42 <CodeShark> yeah, lots and lots and lots of branching
1840 2013-04-12 09:25:46 <gmaxwell> "
1841 2013-04-12 09:25:46 <gmaxwell> âWe have elected to put our money and faith in a mathematical framework that is free of politics and human error,â Tyler Winklevoss said.
1842 2013-04-12 09:25:49 <gmaxwell> "
1843 2013-04-12 09:25:51 <gmaxwell> 0_o
1844 2013-04-12 09:26:02 <CodeShark> haha
1845 2013-04-12 09:26:04 <gmaxwell> Major points for getting it.
1846 2013-04-12 09:26:06 <TD> lol
1847 2013-04-12 09:26:46 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1848 2013-04-12 09:26:54 <gmaxwell> (context: http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/04/11/as-big-investors-emerge-bitcoin-gets-ready-for-its-close-up/?hp which I'd missed until now)
1849 2013-04-12 09:27:10 <TD> it's funny how they're both simultaneously right and wrong
1850 2013-04-12 09:28:15 <gmaxwell> Yes, well they get the idea, of course our execution of that idea is far from perfect. :) But it's arguably superior to at least have that goal.
1851 2013-04-12 09:29:15 danwalton has joined
1852 2013-04-12 09:29:16 <TD> my respect for them definitely increased after reading that article
1853 2013-04-12 09:29:17 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1854 2013-04-12 09:29:25 cap2002 has joined
1855 2013-04-12 09:29:54 grau has joined
1856 2013-04-12 09:30:22 PartTimeLegend has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1857 2013-04-12 09:30:32 <CodeShark> gox's "we're victims of our own success" memo will continue to come back to bite them in the ass
1858 2013-04-12 09:31:20 <CodeShark> but yeah, glad to see the winklevosses are behind bitcoin
1859 2013-04-12 09:31:24 AusBitBank has joined
1860 2013-04-12 09:31:45 B0g4r7 has joined
1861 2013-04-12 09:32:20 <jsfsn> Something with the matching algo @ gox seem weird
1862 2013-04-12 09:32:37 <jsfsn> It is not trivial, but they does not seem to handle more than 1 match / s
1863 2013-04-12 09:32:49 <_dr> since we're already OT, what's the reason for gox to be down right now? the usual maintenance/ddos/incompetence?
1864 2013-04-12 09:32:50 <CodeShark> there are many serious technical problems with gox's system which cannot just be patched over
1865 2013-04-12 09:33:14 <gmaxwell> _dr: dunno ask in #mtgox â there were some really major (apparently >80gbit/sec) dos attacks earlier
1866 2013-04-12 09:33:48 <_dr> nice. i'm getting really curious about who's behind this
1867 2013-04-12 09:34:05 <TD> presumably whoever it is has an AML verified account at the exchange
1868 2013-04-12 09:34:12 <TD> but there's probably no way to link them
1869 2013-04-12 09:34:24 <jsfsn> I'm not sure
1870 2013-04-12 09:34:25 <gmaxwell> _dr: I assume it's the standard model that happens to banks, pools, and, esp., casinos: "Pay us protection money or we dos you"
1871 2013-04-12 09:34:39 <CodeShark> lol
1872 2013-04-12 09:34:39 <TD> or as they already said, attempts to push down the price and buy low
1873 2013-04-12 09:34:40 <jsfsn> Is the price drop really correlated with the ddos's?
1874 2013-04-12 09:34:51 <TD> i doubt it's protection money
1875 2013-04-12 09:34:52 <_dr> fud
1876 2013-04-12 09:34:55 fanquake has joined
1877 2013-04-12 09:35:00 <gmaxwell> TD: or both.
1878 2013-04-12 09:35:05 <TD> "please wire us $1M to this account .... oh crap the police are here"
1879 2013-04-12 09:35:09 <CodeShark> the price drop is most certainly correlated with Gox being taken offline whether it was deliberate or not
1880 2013-04-12 09:35:14 <TD> "please send us bitcoins to address 1abc .... oh crap, how do i sell them"
1881 2013-04-12 09:35:18 <jsfsn> I'd be more worried about ddos on the biggest pools
1882 2013-04-12 09:35:47 cyphurnz has joined
1883 2013-04-12 09:35:48 <Scrat> gmaxwell: in which case you have utterly failed as a software engineer because ddos shouldn't be allowed to reach the trading engine
1884 2013-04-12 09:35:57 <gmaxwell> TD: I know they get demands for protection money, hell even smallish pools do. But I don't know if any of those people are really much of a threat to gox since they have commercial anti-ddos service.
1885 2013-04-12 09:36:34 <TD> Scrat: lay off it. it's easy to be an armchair CEO. but there are only so many hours in each day and many things that must be done to run a place like mtgox.
1886 2013-04-12 09:36:34 <gmaxwell> Scrat: multiple layers of attackâ the ddos is mostly blocked by prolexic until they're totally overrun. The trading engine issue is obviously another kind of attack to whatever extent there is an attack at all.
1887 2013-04-12 09:36:52 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1888 2013-04-12 09:36:52 <gmaxwell> Scrat: also whats with the "you"?
1889 2013-04-12 09:36:58 <jsfsn> The 0.002 trades are probably worse than the ddoses
1890 2013-04-12 09:37:04 <wumpus> could be just a user stampede attack
1891 2013-04-12 09:37:05 <Scrat> gmaxwell: well not you, in general
1892 2013-04-12 09:37:09 <n1c> I guess, it is a form of attack.
1893 2013-04-12 09:37:16 <gmaxwell> Scrat: I look forward to trading on your exchange. :)
1894 2013-04-12 09:37:57 BlackPrapor has joined
1895 2013-04-12 09:38:04 <CodeShark> place an order for 0.0001, cancel repeat
1896 2013-04-12 09:38:24 <jsfsn> They could switch to an in-memory algo, but not trivial to keep the state sane in case of a drop
1897 2013-04-12 09:38:33 <Scrat> TD: alright I won't mention it again
1898 2013-04-12 09:39:02 <CodeShark> jsfsn, there are many far larger exchanges out there who seem to cope with the volume
1899 2013-04-12 09:39:05 <wumpus> I hope the problems with mtgox will cause people to look for alternatives and make the exchange landscape a bit more varied
1900 2013-04-12 09:39:18 <jsfsn> CodeShark, yes, I'm just not sure how safe they really are
1901 2013-04-12 09:39:35 <CodeShark> the gox system simply was not designed to deal with this level of traffic/orders/trades/transactions/site visits
1902 2013-04-12 09:39:47 <CodeShark> and no amount of patching it up will really address the fundamental problems
1903 2013-04-12 09:39:59 <jsfsn> The fundamental problem is quite small I believe
1904 2013-04-12 09:40:06 <CodeShark> oh yeah?
1905 2013-04-12 09:40:06 <jsfsn> It is the single point of order matching that locks
1906 2013-04-12 09:40:19 <jsfsn> Small != easy though
1907 2013-04-12 09:40:36 <CodeShark> but that's just one of their problems
1908 2013-04-12 09:40:51 <jsfsn> I would say that is the critical one
1909 2013-04-12 09:40:53 <CodeShark> I mean, that seems to be a fundamental problem with their trading engine
1910 2013-04-12 09:40:56 <TD> i got quoted by the economist as a "Bitcoin expert"
1911 2013-04-12 09:41:01 * TD can die happy now
1912 2013-04-12 09:41:02 <gmaxwell> wumpus: lets hope lots of people don't land on an exchange that turns out to be a scam.
1913 2013-04-12 09:41:06 <CodeShark> TD: nice :)
1914 2013-04-12 09:41:22 <jsfsn> Well, the trading engines problem is, most likely, due to the wide lock while matching orders
1915 2013-04-12 09:41:42 <CodeShark> yes, probably, jsfsn
1916 2013-04-12 09:41:51 <CodeShark> which is why canceling an order takes an eternity
1917 2013-04-12 09:42:06 <CodeShark> the other problem is the prioritization
1918 2013-04-12 09:42:08 <jsfsn> I'm obviously not sure, but my guess is that they do inserts for each trade
1919 2013-04-12 09:42:18 <gmaxwell> jsfsn: yep, and the need for durability of the whole thing. don't want to double credit a user if the execution engine gets restarted midpipeline.
1920 2013-04-12 09:42:28 <jsfsn> gmaxwell: exactly
1921 2013-04-12 09:42:40 cyphurnz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1922 2013-04-12 09:43:04 <jsfsn> CodeShark: Canceling an order will happen after each cycle
1923 2013-04-12 09:43:09 <gmaxwell> I don't even actually know how I'd accomplish that. It seems really hard if you need to take random hardware failure and recover without manual intervention. (perhaps they don't)
1924 2013-04-12 09:43:17 <jsfsn> Again, I'm guessing here
1925 2013-04-12 09:44:01 <jsfsn> gmaxwell: My guess is that some "real" exchanges takes calculated risks and just put the storage IO on another thread
1926 2013-04-12 09:44:13 <TD> or hold the entire database in RAM
1927 2013-04-12 09:44:17 <TD> paxos replicated
1928 2013-04-12 09:44:22 <jsfsn> TD: Yes, thats my guess
1929 2013-04-12 09:44:22 <gmaxwell> jsfsn: I'd probably have the execution engine tick, each tick moves one new orders to its full effect given the current state. Then every input and output would be stamped with the tick number.
1930 2013-04-12 09:44:35 <TD> they said they had new servers on order that used SSD for everything
1931 2013-04-12 09:44:37 <TD> i guess that'll help
1932 2013-04-12 09:44:44 <TD> their problem, of course, is not really technical but pragmatic
1933 2013-04-12 09:44:45 <jsfsn> gmaxwell: You still need to store the stage in case of crash
1934 2013-04-12 09:44:48 <TD> this is not the "new normal"
1935 2013-04-12 09:44:55 <gmaxwell> jsfsn: then you make sure you log all ticks before sending them to the executor... and log all results that come back
1936 2013-04-12 09:44:57 <TD> huge investments made now to scale could end up being obsolete just a few weeks from now
1937 2013-04-12 09:45:06 <TD> so they have to VERY carefully weigh costs/benefits
1938 2013-04-12 09:45:15 <Konnichiwa> They need some cloud capacity :)
1939 2013-04-12 09:45:26 <jsfsn> gmaxwell: If you need to make sure you log everything to a non-memory storage, you still need the lock
1940 2013-04-12 09:45:31 <gmaxwell> and if you crash you replay the entire exchange history through the executor, and throw out all responses until you get to the tick after the last you have.
1941 2013-04-12 09:45:38 <Konnichiwa> Throw some redis servers up :D
1942 2013-04-12 09:45:40 <gmaxwell> jsfsn: yep.
1943 2013-04-12 09:46:02 <gmaxwell> jsfsn: sorry, I was just talking out loud as to how I'd get the behavior required, much less performance.
1944 2013-04-12 09:46:12 <gmaxwell> (I've never throught about this particular problem before)
1945 2013-04-12 09:46:32 t7 has joined
1946 2013-04-12 09:46:39 <jsfsn> I believe you can take the risk of a crash (lag time == what you loose)
1947 2013-04-12 09:46:57 <jsfsn> and just go with TD's solution (in-memory storage) which dumps to a DB in the background
1948 2013-04-12 09:47:07 <jsfsn> You can still only use one thread, but you will not be IO bound
1949 2013-04-12 09:47:13 <TD> leveldb type storage can be very fast and still consistent
1950 2013-04-12 09:47:24 <TD> the main thread appends to a log so it's just a single write.
1951 2013-04-12 09:47:33 <TD> all other arrangement of data is done async on a separate core
1952 2013-04-12 09:48:33 yeahoffline has joined
1953 2013-04-12 09:48:43 <gmaxwell> jsfsn: I'd worry about what happens if you crash and then you double apply a trade? or even just applying one out of order is very bad (fidelity of execution is one of the ways you can tell the exchange isn't manipulating the market)
1954 2013-04-12 09:49:30 <gmaxwell> e.g. if you had order to buy dollars at $130/btc and the ticker says there was a trade at 130.01 your own order better darn well have executed completely.
1955 2013-04-12 09:49:31 <jsfsn> gmaxwell: Yes, that would be the risk
1956 2013-04-12 09:49:33 Grishnakh_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1957 2013-04-12 09:49:44 neo2 has joined
1958 2013-04-12 09:49:56 <jsfsn> MtGox does not solve that now either it seems
1959 2013-04-12 09:50:08 abraxxo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1960 2013-04-12 09:50:30 <t7> on mtgox, if someone puts an order in to buy 1BTC for 10USD and someone puts an order in to sell 1BTC for 8 usd, what happens to the other 2 dollars?
1961 2013-04-12 09:50:43 <jsfsn> But yes, you take the risk of telling a user a trade has been executed before it is really stored
1962 2013-04-12 09:50:44 <gmaxwell> they sure seemed to in the pastâ the only thing I've seen that looked otherwise seemed like it was just lag.
1963 2013-04-12 09:50:50 <CodeShark> stays in a bid, t7
1964 2013-04-12 09:50:56 <Konnichiwa> Dev Question: If I have a client in two locations, and Client A sends a transcation. How does Client B know which Output transaction has been used to send it and thus decrement the balance?
1965 2013-04-12 09:51:04 <jsfsn> t7: It dependce on who put the order first
1966 2013-04-12 09:51:10 <gmaxwell> what jsfsn said
1967 2013-04-12 09:51:16 <gmaxwell> the later order gets the best price.
1968 2013-04-12 09:51:17 <t7> i think they should meet in the middle and mtgox get a little fee
1969 2013-04-12 09:51:23 danwalton has quit (Quit: danwalton)
1970 2013-04-12 09:51:23 <TD> Konnichiwa: the transaction has a reference to the transactions it's spending
1971 2013-04-12 09:51:24 <gmaxwell> t7: lol no.
1972 2013-04-12 09:51:24 xorgate has quit (Quit: Take it easy)
1973 2013-04-12 09:51:27 abraxxo has joined
1974 2013-04-12 09:51:27 <t7> then both people win
1975 2013-04-12 09:51:29 <jsfsn> y7: right...
1976 2013-04-12 09:51:30 <TD> Konnichiwa: there are details on how the protocol works on thew iki
1977 2013-04-12 09:51:32 <CodeShark> lol
1978 2013-04-12 09:51:35 jaequery has joined
1979 2013-04-12 09:51:35 santoscork has quit (Quit: Auto logout â¦)
1980 2013-04-12 09:51:36 <jsfsn> hehe
1981 2013-04-12 09:51:37 <jsfsn> Fantastic
1982 2013-04-12 09:52:08 <Konnichiwa> Yeah I've looked at that. I get a more specific question would be:
1983 2013-04-12 09:52:10 <jsfsn> t7: You should just increase the price (or decrease in case of the seller)?
1984 2013-04-12 09:52:14 <gmaxwell> t7: for one, the guy with the next best price behind the first of those guys would be pretty cross. :)
1985 2013-04-12 09:52:32 <CodeShark> well, this depends on your definition of "limit order" :)
1986 2013-04-12 09:52:48 danwalton has joined
1987 2013-04-12 09:52:51 <t7> gmaxwell, well tough poop he should have put a lower lower-bound. seems fair enough
1988 2013-04-12 09:53:24 <t7> my exchange is gonna be ground breaking
1989 2013-04-12 09:53:32 <Konnichiwa> The PreviousOutput (Outpoint) on a TxIn is a reference to the Output being used. It contains a Hash. This hash obviously matches up with the TxOut, but how. How much of TxOut do we hash to get the PreviousOutput hash and with what algorithem. This is missing from the Wiki.
1990 2013-04-12 09:53:36 xorgate has joined
1991 2013-04-12 09:53:37 <jsfsn> t7: Good luck with that
1992 2013-04-12 09:53:40 <Konnichiwa> (Wiki is good, just not complete).
1993 2013-04-12 09:54:04 <TD> Konnichiwa: the hash is the hash of the transaction itself, not a part of it
1994 2013-04-12 09:54:16 <TD> Konnichiwa: an outpoint is (tx hash, output index) pair
1995 2013-04-12 09:54:28 <Konnichiwa> Oh, yes I see.
1996 2013-04-12 09:54:35 <Konnichiwa> My mistake then, wiki is good :)
1997 2013-04-12 09:54:43 <TD> cool :)
1998 2013-04-12 09:54:46 <neo2> Why does change has to be sent to a new address and not "stay" ?
1999 2013-04-12 09:55:28 <CodeShark> Konnichiwa - start by reading Satoshi's paper http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf and https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification
2000 2013-04-12 09:55:51 <CodeShark> once you've read those two and digested them, come back and ask questions
2001 2013-04-12 09:56:13 <Konnichiwa> Will do, doing okay just got confused there.
2002 2013-04-12 09:56:47 Faradayy is now known as faradayy
2003 2013-04-12 09:57:44 <t7> Konnichiwa, you point to a (hash of a) block that contains the tx, then you use an index (integer) to point to a specific output. (i think)
2004 2013-04-12 09:58:04 <t7> wait are tx's hashed too?
2005 2013-04-12 09:58:04 <CodeShark> no, the hash of the transaction itself
2006 2013-04-12 09:58:19 <CodeShark> the hash of the block is not used to claim the output - only to verify that the output exists
2007 2013-04-12 09:58:31 <t7> ah yeah wrong way roung
2008 2013-04-12 09:58:45 <t7> but the index thing points to the output
2009 2013-04-12 09:58:49 <CodeShark> yes
2010 2013-04-12 09:58:53 <CodeShark> within the transaction itself
2011 2013-04-12 09:59:19 <t7> i did implement this before :P my memory is terrible
2012 2013-04-12 09:59:40 <Konnichiwa> Yeah got that, I was just deciding if I had to store the transaction itself.
2013 2013-04-12 09:59:53 <Konnichiwa> So wondered how it was referenced.
2014 2013-04-12 10:00:06 <Konnichiwa> You don't really need the transaction, just its hash associated with the output.
2015 2013-04-12 10:00:09 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016 2013-04-12 10:00:18 <CodeShark> you need a way to query for the output
2017 2013-04-12 10:00:26 <CodeShark> by tx hash and index
2018 2013-04-12 10:00:30 <Konnichiwa> Yeah
2019 2013-04-12 10:00:56 <t7> any of you guys see the zero coin thing?
2020 2013-04-12 10:01:02 <t7> i need to read the paper
2021 2013-04-12 10:01:25 <Konnichiwa> Zero coin?
2022 2013-04-12 10:02:32 RoboTeddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2023 2013-04-12 10:03:01 <t7> http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2013/04/zerocoin-making-bitcoin-anonymous.html
2024 2013-04-12 10:03:09 <digitalmagus> a coin that has the price tied to the USD, but has all the other features of a bitcoin. So basically, volatility goes away... until the US bond market crashes that is. But should be good for a few years :PP
2025 2013-04-12 10:03:18 Mr_G is now known as n5
2026 2013-04-12 10:03:30 theorbtwo has joined
2027 2013-04-12 10:03:55 <Konnichiwa> Who decides what value it is tied at?
2028 2013-04-12 10:04:45 <n1c> Good question?
2029 2013-04-12 10:04:52 <n1c> I was pondering a fixed-price coin as well but couldn't figure that out.
2030 2013-04-12 10:05:00 <CodeShark> to peg a block chain based currency to the dollar you'd probably need to shift generation rate
2031 2013-04-12 10:05:04 <n1c> Surely a market would form.
2032 2013-04-12 10:05:29 <alaricsp> It's hard for somebody to decide what the value of something is
2033 2013-04-12 10:05:32 <CodeShark> but the dynamics are far from trivial
2034 2013-04-12 10:05:32 grau has joined
2035 2013-04-12 10:05:53 <Konnichiwa> You'd need just one place to trade it, but that would never work.
2036 2013-04-12 10:05:56 <pjorrit_> if you have a pile of cash and a ton of trustworthiness you could set a lower bound probably
2037 2013-04-12 10:05:59 <alaricsp> The only way to MAKE it happen is to stand up and say "Ok, I will buy/sell this thing for $X" and then stick to that even if it's costing you money
2038 2013-04-12 10:06:04 <CodeShark> just because you increase/decrease the money supply doesn't mean the markets will instantly inflate/deflate accordingly - there's price stickiness and other issues
2039 2013-04-12 10:06:26 meLon has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2040 2013-04-12 10:06:29 <n1c> Yeah
2041 2013-04-12 10:06:31 <X-Scale> You'd just be replicating the USD in a cryptocurrency format. I'm afraid the US government wouldn't like that idea.
2042 2013-04-12 10:06:36 <Konnichiwa> alaricsp: When others start selling it cheaper they just buy it from them. Your still selling it the same but its 'worthiness' still reduces.
2043 2013-04-12 10:07:22 <CodeShark> but even assuming you could solve the generation rate issue, there's still the issue of consensus on exchange rate
2044 2013-04-12 10:07:52 RazielZ has joined
2045 2013-04-12 10:08:01 <alaricsp> Konnichiwa: Indeed - buy they'll sell it at $5 and you'll buy it back at $6 so you will then be fighting with them, and you'd better have more cash in order to last them out :-)
2046 2013-04-12 10:08:07 <CodeShark> the latter might actually be a simpler problem than the former :p
2047 2013-04-12 10:08:36 <alaricsp> Your money spent supporting your currency will go to peopple who buy it at $5 and sell at $6 and repeat the cycle.
2048 2013-04-12 10:08:39 meLon has joined
2049 2013-04-12 10:08:42 <Konnichiwa> Hmm... back to my Transactions.. :)
2050 2013-04-12 10:08:49 <alaricsp> And you have a problem if the people selling at $5 can afford to do that forever!
2051 2013-04-12 10:09:42 <alaricsp> You would be best to buy all of their stock at $5 until they run out, and then you can sell it at $6 thereafter, but you need the capital to buy them out.
2052 2013-04-12 10:09:44 grau has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2053 2013-04-12 10:10:37 <t7> has anyone heard of a system where you have a web of trust, then a path between two strangers walks the web - taking the least risk? and has that ever been used for currency exchange?
2054 2013-04-12 10:10:40 jsfsn has quit (Quit: leaving)
2055 2013-04-12 10:10:45 grau has joined
2056 2013-04-12 10:10:45 <CodeShark> ripple?
2057 2013-04-12 10:11:12 <gmaxwell> that was the original idea of ripple basically. pairwise lending between trusted parties...
2058 2013-04-12 10:11:22 <gmaxwell> ripple.com is .. not quite that.
2059 2013-04-12 10:11:32 <jgarzik> Is OpenCoin == ripple.com and Jed and friends?
2060 2013-04-12 10:11:37 <jgarzik> or is OpenCoin something else?
2061 2013-04-12 10:11:46 <CodeShark> same thing, jgarzik
2062 2013-04-12 10:11:51 grau has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2063 2013-04-12 10:12:05 <Scrat> yep, centralized currency issuing
2064 2013-04-12 10:12:17 <Scrat> not so "open"
2065 2013-04-12 10:12:47 <jgarzik> I agree w/ the Ripple guys that bootstrapping in a P2P fashion is difficult
2066 2013-04-12 10:12:50 <t7> so does it work like: I trust my friend bob to be truthful, if he lies i will pay <trust>% of your loss ?
2067 2013-04-12 10:13:29 <jgarzik> but like other unrelated crypto-currency experiments, it's being bootstrapped by a centralized process, and you don't know if it will survive outside of the bootstrapper's help.
2068 2013-04-12 10:14:14 <gmaxwell> They haven't yet really made an argument that I could understand that it will. Or even convinced me that they'd actually thought through their model well enough to know.
2069 2013-04-12 10:14:32 <gmaxwell> but if notâ I suppose they'll find out!
2070 2013-04-12 10:15:00 <CodeShark> do any of you have access to their source code?
2071 2013-04-12 10:15:06 danwalton has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2072 2013-04-12 10:15:12 <gmaxwell> made ~1 BTC selling the freebie XRP they gave out.
2073 2013-04-12 10:15:17 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: not I said the fly
2074 2013-04-12 10:16:02 grau has joined
2075 2013-04-12 10:16:05 danwalton has joined
2076 2013-04-12 10:16:09 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I grilled poor JoelKatz on the forum for a while over how it was supposted to work.
2077 2013-04-12 10:16:28 <CodeShark> Jed won't give you access, gmaxwell?
2078 2013-04-12 10:16:39 <CodeShark> seems like you and a few other people in this channel could help significantly
2079 2013-04-12 10:16:45 <CodeShark> in spotting issues
2080 2013-04-12 10:17:15 <t7> why isnt it open source anyway?
2081 2013-04-12 10:17:39 <gmaxwell> If they'd like my input they can open it.
2082 2013-04-12 10:17:57 <jgarzik> indeed
2083 2013-04-12 10:18:06 <CodeShark> I believe they intend to open it - but they've still been reluctant to
2084 2013-04-12 10:18:13 <CodeShark> if it isn't open it will never fly
2085 2013-04-12 10:18:18 <gmaxwell> Of all the bootstrapping mechenisms, I have to say I approve of the closed code the least.
2086 2013-04-12 10:18:45 <jgarzik> before bitcoin was open, it was closed ;p
2087 2013-04-12 10:18:53 <gmaxwell> (not even out of a philosophical objection to closed software, ... but out of a philosophical objectioned to closed code cryptocurrencies!)
2088 2013-04-12 10:19:12 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I didn't run bitcoin before it was open either! :P and nor did anyone else!
2089 2013-04-12 10:19:26 <wumpus> jgarzik: did satoshi ever spread only an executable?
2090 2013-04-12 10:20:20 <jgarzik> As you know, no. But certainly Satoshi spent time locally during development.
2091 2013-04-12 10:20:29 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2092 2013-04-12 10:20:45 <jgarzik> Don't micro-parse, note the ";p"
2093 2013-04-12 10:20:47 <jgarzik> :)
2094 2013-04-12 10:21:24 <wumpus> hehe
2095 2013-04-12 10:22:03 Xeno-Genesis has joined
2096 2013-04-12 10:22:18 <gmaxwell> All I know is that people made a currently closed source currency thing. with 100-bignum premined whosywhats it. And no clear (to me) argument as to why it'll ever be decenteralized.. and I managed to sell my giveawaywhosiwhats it for like 1 BTC when bitcoin was $30. ... and this all seems too weird to me!
2097 2013-04-12 10:24:22 <X-Scale> wumpus: http://marc.info/?l=cryptography&m=123154955407622&w=3
2098 2013-04-12 10:24:45 <X-Scale> Bitcoin v0.1 released: "Windows only for now. Open source C++ code is included."
2099 2013-04-12 10:24:52 <X-Scale> Date: 2009-01-08 19:27:40
2100 2013-04-12 10:24:53 normanrichards has joined
2101 2013-04-12 10:25:23 <CodeShark> hah, nice :)
2102 2013-04-12 10:25:26 <wumpus> thanks
2103 2013-04-12 10:25:28 faradayy has quit ()
2104 2013-04-12 10:26:00 <CodeShark> wait, the rar link won't work
2105 2013-04-12 10:27:12 <CodeShark> oh, I guess the svn repos are still around
2106 2013-04-12 10:27:30 <X-Scale> try here: http://www.zorinaq.com/pub/bitcoin-0.1.0.rar
2107 2013-04-12 10:27:40 <sipa> 0.1.3 and 0.1.5 are in the git repository i think
2108 2013-04-12 10:28:04 e-dard has joined
2109 2013-04-12 10:28:12 <CodeShark> yeah, I just checked that out, X-Scale
2110 2013-04-12 10:28:48 <Scrat> btw, there seem to be a LOT of people downloading the bootstrap right now
2111 2013-04-12 10:29:11 <sipa> yes
2112 2013-04-12 10:29:14 <Scrat> torrent is seeding like crazy and ive served at least 1000 complete http downloads of it in the last couple of days
2113 2013-04-12 10:29:19 <gmaxwell> someone imported 0.1.0 and 0.1.3 into another github rpo.
2114 2013-04-12 10:29:36 danwalton has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2115 2013-04-12 10:30:09 <Scrat> an increase of 20x compared to a few weeks ago
2116 2013-04-12 10:30:23 danwalton has joined
2117 2013-04-12 10:30:39 <CodeShark> bitcoin's going mainstream :p
2118 2013-04-12 10:30:59 Faradayy has joined
2119 2013-04-12 10:32:28 <Scrat> i think it has something to do with slow client downloads
2120 2013-04-12 10:32:46 <Scrat> a lot of nodes are stuck at low block height
2121 2013-04-12 10:32:53 <Scrat> where was that graph that Luke-Jr posted
2122 2013-04-12 10:34:10 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2123 2013-04-12 10:35:47 Faradayy has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2124 2013-04-12 10:36:08 Faradayy has joined
2125 2013-04-12 10:37:14 <Scrat> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/bestblocks.html
2126 2013-04-12 10:37:35 sdsfsdf has joined
2127 2013-04-12 10:37:37 Faradayy has quit (Disconnected by services)
2128 2013-04-12 10:38:34 Faradayy has joined
2129 2013-04-12 10:41:36 Hasimir has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2130 2013-04-12 10:42:01 sdsfsdf has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2131 2013-04-12 10:42:27 <gmaxwell> looking somewhat better than it was I think
2132 2013-04-12 10:42:40 <Scrat> yeah it looked real bad 2 days ago
2133 2013-04-12 10:43:09 Faradayy has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2134 2013-04-12 10:43:57 danwalton has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2135 2013-04-12 10:44:12 cap2002 has quit ()
2136 2013-04-12 10:44:14 <e-dard> Is anyone in here working on an exchange?
2137 2013-04-12 10:44:33 <jgarzik> e-dard: try #bitcoin-otc maybe. This channel is largely for core development.
2138 2013-04-12 10:44:39 <e-dard> ah I see
2139 2013-04-12 10:44:41 danwalton has joined
2140 2013-04-12 10:44:43 <e-dard> Sorry. :)
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2153 2013-04-12 10:49:12 <jaromil> jgarzik: hi! any time to get me on track on a bbrd based payment event processor? I must admit I didn't found much time myself to hack on that yet, but I have some time now
2154 2013-04-12 10:49:26 Grishnakh has joined
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2156 2013-04-12 10:49:57 <jgarzik> jaromil: Feel free to ask any questions you want... I don't have much coding time this week.
2157 2013-04-12 10:50:41 <jgarzik> jaromil: brd is at the "gets on the network" stage of construction. All the pieces are not yet connecting, for it to fully download and validate the blockchain.
2158 2013-04-12 10:50:52 HM2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2159 2013-04-12 10:50:57 <jgarzik> jaromil: the chain validation stuff does exist in test/
2160 2013-04-12 10:51:38 <CodeShark> is this a software or a hardware project?
2161 2013-04-12 10:52:15 <CodeShark> I mean, is this another implementation of bitcoin on standard hardware?
2162 2013-04-12 10:53:02 <CodeShark> nvm... - I'll look up brd :p
2163 2013-04-12 10:53:05 <Konnichiwa> Is it correct that I incur no transaction fee when transmitting a whole Output?
2164 2013-04-12 10:53:12 <jgarzik> CodeShark: Asking me or jaromil? jaromil is referring to https://github.com/jgarzik/picocoin/ which includes a lib, validating daemon, and SPV client.
2165 2013-04-12 10:53:25 <jgarzik> CodeShark: the latter two being incomplete
2166 2013-04-12 10:53:30 <CodeShark> oh
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2168 2013-04-12 10:55:11 <jaromil> and IMHO is the best bitcoin codebase around ATM. but then I'm also more of a C guy...
2169 2013-04-12 10:55:14 * jgarzik looks balefully at gevent, as used by pynode. I merged it... but still don't like models that do not precisely match underlying APIs and hardware.
2170 2013-04-12 10:55:56 <jaromil> jgarzik: first questions is stupid but basically looking at brd.c i see the main event trigger is event_base_dispatch(nci->eb);
2171 2013-04-12 10:56:20 <jaromil> (disclaimer: I'm new to libevent, but I see its fairly simple)
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2176 2013-04-12 10:57:13 <jaromil> is there any event I could register at that point that can elegantly get access to the latest parts of blockchain and check if they match a destination address that is known to me?
2177 2013-04-12 10:57:47 <jgarzik> jaromil: libevent is only for file descriptor-related events, or periodic timers
2178 2013-04-12 10:57:54 <[psy]> hi jaromil:)
2179 2013-04-12 10:57:56 <jaromil> please note *elegantly* basically means I'd love to touch your code less as possible that's why I'm asking rather than hacking through
2180 2013-04-12 10:58:09 <jaromil> hoi psy :)
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2182 2013-04-12 10:58:28 <jaromil> ack on libevent
2183 2013-04-12 10:58:31 <jgarzik> jaromil: i.e. "network socket has new activity" So, libevent is not a generic event framework. If you want to create a "new block event", that is a wholly different concept unrelated to libevent.
2184 2013-04-12 10:58:44 <jaromil> ic
2185 2013-04-12 10:59:07 <jgarzik> libevent is very low level, for operating system events
2186 2013-04-12 10:59:42 <jaromil> ok. also I see you clearly get what I want to do. any directions for a smart start?
2187 2013-04-12 10:59:58 <jgarzik> jaromil: nc_conn_message() is where bitcoin P2P messages are received
2188 2013-04-12 11:00:03 <jaromil> yep
2189 2013-04-12 11:00:24 <jgarzik> jaromil: so for a new block event, you would write custom code for the "block" message etc.
2190 2013-04-12 11:01:32 <jaromil> ok then I just save that nc_conn into my own logic which will save recent blocks, discard after a certain ttl and confirm if the dest matches
2191 2013-04-12 11:01:50 <jgarzik> jaromil: the library has code to look at transactions, and see if they match a destination address (though keep in mind that only works for non-P2SH)
2192 2013-04-12 11:02:56 <jgarzik> jaromil: Note, you need a fully validating engine that handles re-orgs and maintains a block database, if you want this to be more than a simple monitor.
2193 2013-04-12 11:03:09 <jgarzik> jaromil: The pieces are there in the lib, for that, but not yet hooked up in brd.
2194 2013-04-12 11:03:39 <jgarzik> Be back in a few minutes... grabbing some hot fresh buttermilk biscuits
2195 2013-04-12 11:03:51 <jaromil> yes I saw your lib has more. is also well organized
2196 2013-04-12 11:03:53 <jaromil> kk
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2199 2013-04-12 11:06:18 <jaromil> well I don't think a block db is needed for my plan. I just want something that is *very lightweight* and, triggered by some cgi of sorts listens for a limited amount of time (say 24h) if a transaction is made to an address and if yes notifies the cgi / sends a mail or so. its for a very simple pay-to-download thingie one can use on any vps
2200 2013-04-12 11:06:48 Faradayy is now known as Faraday
2201 2013-04-12 11:06:52 <CodeShark> heh, another one trying to build exactly the notification app that I've been so keen on :p
2202 2013-04-12 11:06:57 Faraday is now known as Faradayy
2203 2013-04-12 11:07:07 <jaromil> CodeShark: cool. we need it! any progress made on your side?
2204 2013-04-12 11:07:10 <CodeShark> I have a C++ solution, jaromil :)
2205 2013-04-12 11:07:20 <jaromil> oh ok! I'm not a C fundamentalist
2206 2013-04-12 11:07:27 <jaromil> is it public?
2207 2013-04-12 11:07:30 <CodeShark> yes
2208 2013-04-12 11:07:39 <jaromil> do I need to drool more?
2209 2013-04-12 11:07:43 <jaromil> :)
2210 2013-04-12 11:07:45 <[psy]> lpl
2211 2013-04-12 11:07:47 <jaromil> I do love picocoin
2212 2013-04-12 11:07:47 <[psy]> lol
2213 2013-04-12 11:07:47 <CodeShark> https://github.com/CodeShark/CoinClasses
2214 2013-04-12 11:07:53 <CodeShark> check out the listener2 example
2215 2013-04-12 11:07:59 <jaromil> 10x CodeShark
2216 2013-04-12 11:08:19 <wumpus> gmaxwell: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2515
2217 2013-04-12 11:08:42 <CodeShark> just subclass CoinNodeAbstractListener and write your own handlers
2218 2013-04-12 11:09:12 <CodeShark> the networking code isn't super sophisticated at this point
2219 2013-04-12 11:09:16 <CodeShark> it only connects to a single node
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2222 2013-04-12 11:09:57 <CodeShark> I intend to improve upon that later, add better concurrency and other stuff
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2224 2013-04-12 11:10:40 <CodeShark> but I've been running it on multiple projects and I believe it is fairly stable
2225 2013-04-12 11:12:02 <jaromil> have you had a look at picocoins network code?
2226 2013-04-12 11:12:05 <jaromil> seems very good to me
2227 2013-04-12 11:12:11 <CodeShark> I was taking a look just now
2228 2013-04-12 11:12:42 <jaromil> plz do might end up as a good addition. reading jgarzik's code always gives me a feeling of reassurance :)
2229 2013-04-12 11:12:51 <jaromil> s/addition/dep
2230 2013-04-12 11:13:09 <CodeShark> I like jgarzik's coding style, too
2231 2013-04-12 11:14:20 <[psy]> anyone ever wonders what happens if there is a hash of addres collision?
2232 2013-04-12 11:14:28 Adifex has joined
2233 2013-04-12 11:14:36 <CodeShark> [psy]: I'd worry more about getting hit by an asteroid
2234 2013-04-12 11:14:53 <[psy]> *or
2235 2013-04-12 11:15:15 <[psy]> hehe ok
2236 2013-04-12 11:15:25 <[psy]> you
2237 2013-04-12 11:15:35 <CodeShark> you mean two public keys that hash to the same address? just means it can be claimed by two different private keys
2238 2013-04-12 11:15:47 <[psy]> you're probably right..but just for the fun.
2239 2013-04-12 11:16:18 <CodeShark> if you see someone out there who has generated the same receiving address as you, if you blame the random number generator you're almost guaranteed 100% to have found the culprit
2240 2013-04-12 11:16:26 <jaromil> [psy]: what about support for bitcoin blockchain events in synapse? :^)
2241 2013-04-12 11:16:41 <flyingkiwiguy> s/random.pseudo-random/
2242 2013-04-12 11:16:43 <jaromil> like donate here to switch on the light :)))
2243 2013-04-12 11:16:53 <flyingkiwiguy> s/\./\/
2244 2013-04-12 11:17:03 <[psy]> jaromil that wpuld be a nice module indeed
2245 2013-04-12 11:17:54 grau has joined
2246 2013-04-12 11:18:04 <[psy]> jaromil you checked out my media zapper project ?
2247 2013-04-12 11:19:02 <jaromil> not yet. but i'd love to, also you'll be at ohm2013 planning some installation?
2248 2013-04-12 11:19:43 <[psy]> dunno...but i already have tickets:)
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2259 2013-04-12 11:28:29 <jaakkos> i'm planning a service where a user sends coins to the service, and later (could be earlier but i'd like to avoid spam) submits some data to the service that they associate with the coins they sent
2260 2013-04-12 11:28:53 <jaakkos> they need to prove that the data is indeed associated with the coins they sent
2261 2013-04-12 11:29:15 <[psy]> maybe they could sign the data with the same private key?
2262 2013-04-12 11:29:20 <jaakkos> yes:
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2264 2013-04-12 11:29:46 <[psy]> isnt it possible to add arbitrary data to transactions or scripts?
2265 2013-04-12 11:29:58 <jaakkos> one approach is to require from the user - when they submit the data - 1) the txid they used to send the coins, and 2) a signature signing the txid with one of the private keys whose public part was used in the tx
2266 2013-04-12 11:30:12 <jaakkos> [psy]: it's in the design but it's not allowed in the network
2267 2013-04-12 11:30:29 <[psy]> ah k
2268 2013-04-12 11:30:35 <jaakkos> [psy]: it's allowed though, if you mine it yourself :) but otherwise nodes drop such transactions
2269 2013-04-12 11:30:49 <[psy]> aww :)
2270 2013-04-12 11:31:23 liva has joined
2271 2013-04-12 11:31:25 <[psy]> maybe you could encode the message in the value of serveral transactions at once :)
2272 2013-04-12 11:31:30 <jaakkos> what i don't like about my approach, is that the user needs to dig out the txid they used, and they need to dig out an input address to figure out which key to use for signing
2273 2013-04-12 11:32:06 <jaakkos> oh, 2) was supposed to be: signature signing a hash of the data with ...
2274 2013-04-12 11:32:20 <[psy]> or since fractions are allowed, you only need one tranaction and abuse the lowest bits as data :P
2275 2013-04-12 11:34:06 bytecoin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2276 2013-04-12 11:34:15 <jaakkos> heh, yeah you could transmit data like that as well
2277 2013-04-12 11:34:42 <jaakkos> but i'm fairly confident the users of my would-be service are not willing to do that :D and storage of any extra data in the chain is discouraged.
2278 2013-04-12 11:35:13 <[psy]> indeed
2279 2013-04-12 11:35:19 <[psy]> it would be a nice ugly hack :)
2280 2013-04-12 11:35:19 <jaromil> jgarzik: is brd ever going to download blocks? on the console I only see it opening connections, most of them timing out. sorry again if I'm just at the beginning of a commandline run troubleshoot / inquiry phase
2281 2013-04-12 11:35:46 <jaromil> jgarzik: it grows a .peer file but no log
2282 2013-04-12 11:35:48 <[psy]> what kind of contraption you're working on jaromil ?:)
2283 2013-04-12 11:36:12 <jgarzik> back
2284 2013-04-12 11:36:15 <bitnumus> hey all
2285 2013-04-12 11:36:24 <bitnumus> how often do TX get broadcast ?
2286 2013-04-12 11:36:35 <bitnumus> wondering if mtgox are spouting some BS right now
2287 2013-04-12 11:37:27 <jgarzik> jaromil: Yes, just watching for a transaction to an address is doable by brd and current lib
2288 2013-04-12 11:37:55 <jgarzik> bitnumus: It depends on the bitcoin client. Every couple of hours, maybe.
2289 2013-04-12 11:38:17 <sipa> the reference client rebroadcasts every 15-30 minutes
2290 2013-04-12 11:38:21 <jgarzik> jaromil: brd opens a block database, but does not yet download blocks.
2291 2013-04-12 11:38:45 <jaromil> ack
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2293 2013-04-12 11:39:04 <jgarzik> jaromil: You don't need a block database, if you just want to watch for "inv", and request all MSG_TX from that
2294 2013-04-12 11:39:09 <jgarzik> (then watch "tx")
2295 2013-04-12 11:39:29 <jaromil> yes
2296 2013-04-12 11:39:56 <jaromil> i see with debug I get more
2297 2013-04-12 11:40:02 <jgarzik> jaromil: APIs like bp_txout_match() and bp_block_match() exist to scan TXs and blocks
2298 2013-04-12 11:40:14 <jgarzik> jaromil: if you have a lot of addresses to match, use the bloom filter API
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2300 2013-04-12 11:41:20 <jaromil> ok, that depends how I structure the thing but I'll start with something very very simple
2301 2013-04-12 11:41:44 <bitnumus> sorry jgarzik
2302 2013-04-12 11:41:44 <jaromil> what "inv" stands for?
2303 2013-04-12 11:41:48 <sipa> inventory
2304 2013-04-12 11:41:53 <jaromil> right
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2306 2013-04-12 11:42:03 <jaromil> groetjes sipa :)
2307 2013-04-12 11:42:09 <bitnumus> <sipa> the reference client rebroadcasts every 15-30 minutes
2308 2013-04-12 11:42:11 <bitnumus> i thought this
2309 2013-04-12 11:42:13 <sipa> jaromil: haha!
2310 2013-04-12 11:42:22 <bitnumus> so whytf is it taking 16hours for some people
2311 2013-04-12 11:42:32 <sipa> bitnumus: because space in blocks is limited
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2313 2013-04-12 11:42:57 <jgarzik> until TD removes that limit :(
2314 2013-04-12 11:42:57 <jgarzik> sigh
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2316 2013-04-12 11:43:09 * jgarzik takes a deep breath, and moves on
2317 2013-04-12 11:44:08 <jaromil> thanks for the assist jgarzik I guess I know enough now
2318 2013-04-12 11:45:05 <jaromil> my partner wants to sell knitted stuff and bacterial cultures for kombucha and kefir, I rly need to get a shop up asap
2319 2013-04-12 11:46:01 <sipa> my public node is uploading at close to 1 MB/s
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2321 2013-04-12 11:46:07 <sipa> constantly
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2323 2013-04-12 11:47:08 <sipa> that should be 80 GB/day, but my VPS only lists 5 GB/day
2324 2013-04-12 11:47:17 <sipa> (the provider's console)
2325 2013-04-12 11:47:53 * sipa wonders if he should report this
2326 2013-04-12 11:48:14 <kinlo> sipa: doublecheck with other values :)
2327 2013-04-12 11:48:31 <sipa> wait
2328 2013-04-12 11:48:46 <sipa> the number they report is very close to what i'd expect by only measuring downstream
2329 2013-04-12 11:49:17 <sipa> it can't be that upstream is unlimited, but downstream is...
2330 2013-04-12 11:49:34 <jchp> that would be the best VPS ever
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2336 2013-04-12 11:51:39 <wumpus> sipa: I had a vps once that did that
2337 2013-04-12 11:52:21 <wumpus> sipa: eh the other way around, downstream was unlimited, upstream was capped
2338 2013-04-12 11:52:27 <bitnumus> sipa its not that
2339 2013-04-12 11:52:33 <bitnumus> they aren't even being broadcast
2340 2013-04-12 11:52:39 <bitnumus> and mtgox dont store your TX ID!!
2341 2013-04-12 11:53:07 <jchp> Amazon EC2's downstream is uncapped
2342 2013-04-12 11:54:37 <wumpus> the funny thing is that they mentioned it nowhere, and at a certain point they suddenly changed to counting both upstream and downstream
2343 2013-04-12 11:54:58 zw has joined
2344 2013-04-12 11:55:28 <wumpus> I was like wtf where does all that extra traffic come from
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2353 2013-04-12 12:01:12 <Konnichiwa> Quick question. I'm creating a TxIn. I'm wondering about the data to put in the Script.
2354 2013-04-12 12:01:18 <Konnichiwa> It says <sig> <pubKey>
2355 2013-04-12 12:01:35 <Konnichiwa> Is the pubKey the Hash160 of the address? (20 bytes)
2356 2013-04-12 12:01:57 <Konnichiwa> Or is it the whole PublicKey?
2357 2013-04-12 12:01:59 <Konnichiwa> 33 bytes?
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2360 2013-04-12 12:03:09 <jchp> whole public key
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2363 2013-04-12 12:03:45 <Konnichiwa> Thanks jchp
2364 2013-04-12 12:03:46 <jchp> remember that if the address wasn't used, the pubkey is unknown to everyone, can't verify the sig w/o the pubkey
2365 2013-04-12 12:03:48 vigilyn2 has joined
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2368 2013-04-12 12:04:08 <Konnichiwa> Sure
2369 2013-04-12 12:04:09 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2370 2013-04-12 12:04:10 <jchp> np
2371 2013-04-12 12:04:27 <TD> Konnichiwa: the address must obviously correspond to the 33 byte (compressed) form and not the longer form
2372 2013-04-12 12:04:43 <TD> Konnichiwa: if it helps, you may find the code at bitcoinj.org useful as a reference. it's easier to read than the c++
2373 2013-04-12 12:05:14 danwalton has joined
2374 2013-04-12 12:05:19 <Konnichiwa> Cheers TD I will have a look.
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2405 2013-04-12 12:23:47 <rhett_> hi, I literally have bitcoins on a reformatted drive, but the data has not been erased
2406 2013-04-12 12:24:14 <xorgate> you mean you have a private key there
2407 2013-04-12 12:24:23 <rhett_> I grepped the drive for wallet.dat and see it, along with blkindex.dat addr.dat
2408 2013-04-12 12:24:28 talengix has joined
2409 2013-04-12 12:24:33 <rhett_> etc.
2410 2013-04-12 12:24:38 <rhett_> what data do I need to get the coins?
2411 2013-04-12 12:25:04 <sipa> wallet.dat
2412 2013-04-12 12:25:24 <rhett_> how do I recover wallet.dat from the grep?
2413 2013-04-12 12:25:34 <sipa> just the key entries are enough in theory
2414 2013-04-12 12:25:48 <sipa> i think there are tools that can recover them from arbitrary data if they're not encrypted
2415 2013-04-12 12:26:19 <rhett_> the drive was formatted though
2416 2013-04-12 12:26:53 oiram has joined
2417 2013-04-12 12:27:03 <median^> rhett_: see pywallet - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=34028.0
2418 2013-04-12 12:28:09 Transisto has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2419 2013-04-12 12:29:04 Thepok has joined
2420 2013-04-12 12:29:34 <rhett_> thanks median^ , checking out pywallet
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2423 2013-04-12 12:30:15 <t7> the block chain has two major purposes, right? Ordering transactions and adding value/currency into the network?
2424 2013-04-12 12:30:32 lorenzi has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2425 2013-04-12 12:31:34 <t7> I wonder what other methods have been suggested for distributed order
2426 2013-04-12 12:31:36 <median^> the block chain generates bitcoins with each new block, also transactions are added to the block chain when proccessed
2427 2013-04-12 12:32:05 <sipa> t7: the only other method for ordering is a true consensus algorithm, but those always require at least the participants in the network to be known
2428 2013-04-12 12:32:14 <sipa> t7: for example the paxos algorithm
2429 2013-04-12 12:33:34 teff has joined
2430 2013-04-12 12:33:40 <t7> oh cool i will do some reading
2431 2013-04-12 12:34:41 <HM2> o.o
2432 2013-04-12 12:34:48 <teff> Does anyone know if any client or service is actively implementing the things from Mike Hearn's talk last year? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD4L7xDNCmA)
2433 2013-04-12 12:35:16 Siskiyou has joined
2434 2013-04-12 12:37:24 <sipa> median^: the _purpose_ of the blockchain is ordering transactions - if global communication was instant, we wouldn't need the blockchain at all, as everyone would agree about the order
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2436 2013-04-12 12:37:48 <median^> right
2437 2013-04-12 12:37:48 <sipa> median^: the fact that introduction of new coins is tied to it, is just a nice trick imho
2438 2013-04-12 12:38:08 daybyter has joined
2439 2013-04-12 12:38:19 i2pRelay has joined
2440 2013-04-12 12:38:28 <TD> a bit more than a trick. alternative schemes all seem to have serious flaws. but yes, it's not fundamental
2441 2013-04-12 12:38:50 <median^> i was wondering if there's statistics or charts about the difficulty. i'm looking for a difficulty graph
2442 2013-04-12 12:39:16 <vrs> median^: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/
2443 2013-04-12 12:39:18 <TD> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin.png
2444 2013-04-12 12:39:24 darenthis has joined
2445 2013-04-12 12:42:47 <jsfsn> sipa: Can the blockchain somehow be shrinked, or do we always need the full history?
2446 2013-04-12 12:43:12 datagutt has joined
2447 2013-04-12 12:43:12 <t7> jsfsn, you only need to track outputs
2448 2013-04-12 12:43:22 <t7> as long as you have verified the rest
2449 2013-04-12 12:43:33 <sipa> jsfsn: depends what you want
2450 2013-04-12 12:43:35 <t7> so maybe pruned or something
2451 2013-04-12 12:43:43 <jsfsn> t7: Yes, but some how it must be verified
2452 2013-04-12 12:43:45 <sipa> jsfsn: you can implement a fully verifying node that doesn't store blocks on disk
2453 2013-04-12 12:43:50 <jsfsn> So you would need it to start with, right?
2454 2013-04-12 12:43:52 <sipa> jsfsn: but you'll still need to download and process them
2455 2013-04-12 12:44:10 <vrs> there are clients that delegate the "download the whole blockchain" thing
2456 2013-04-12 12:44:18 oiram has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2457 2013-04-12 12:44:19 <jsfsn> I mean the Bitcoin system as a hole
2458 2013-04-12 12:44:31 <sipa> vrs: no, they delegate the "verify the whole blockchain" thing :)
2459 2013-04-12 12:44:53 <median^> vrs: is that how clients like electrum work?
2460 2013-04-12 12:45:05 <vrs> median^: yes
2461 2013-04-12 12:45:09 <vrs> afaik
2462 2013-04-12 12:45:28 <HM2> anyone reviewed this zerocoin stuff?
2463 2013-04-12 12:45:32 xenesis has joined
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2465 2013-04-12 12:45:49 <vrs> sipa: download and verify?
2466 2013-04-12 12:46:20 i2pRelay has joined
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2472 2013-04-12 12:49:41 Lophie_ has joined
2473 2013-04-12 12:49:52 <Lophie_> Hello awesome people
2474 2013-04-12 12:50:08 <TD> hello
2475 2013-04-12 12:50:13 <TD> HM2: yes
2476 2013-04-12 12:50:18 <TD> HM2: i reviewed their paper and sent them a big pile of feedbac
2477 2013-04-12 12:50:26 <TD> HM2: i posted some discussion in the foundation forum
2478 2013-04-12 12:50:29 <Lophie_> I am in desperate need for some information. I did some reasearch then I decided to ask you smart people
2479 2013-04-12 12:50:40 <Lophie_> may I?
2480 2013-04-12 12:50:44 <TD> ask away
2481 2013-04-12 12:50:48 <TD> if it's software/dev related
2482 2013-04-12 12:50:53 <Lophie_> ok. Q1: How many block-chains can be merged mined along with Bitcoin?
2483 2013-04-12 12:50:57 <Lophie_> yes yes of course
2484 2013-04-12 12:51:05 Guest60631 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2485 2013-04-12 12:51:08 <TD> a theoretically infinite number, depending on how the alt-chains are implemented
2486 2013-04-12 12:51:19 <TD> if they're not implemented in the right way, you could get a limit
2487 2013-04-12 12:51:24 <Lophie_> hmm. can you please elaborate on teh second half?
2488 2013-04-12 12:51:37 <median^> wow the difficulty has doubled in the last 3 months
2489 2013-04-12 12:52:01 <TD> the bitcoin coinbase transaction inputs are a scratch space. for each alt chain you need a hash. now, if those alt chains were all developed in the simplest way possible, each one would need a hash in the coinbase input. but there's limited space there.
2490 2013-04-12 12:52:04 <TD> hence, limited number of chains
2491 2013-04-12 12:52:17 <TD> you can design the alt chains to accept not a direct hash but a merkle branch
2492 2013-04-12 12:52:28 giz has quit (Client Quit)
2493 2013-04-12 12:52:29 <TD> there are some subtle issues to do with positioning in the tree
2494 2013-04-12 12:52:32 <TD> (the merkle tree)
2495 2013-04-12 12:52:35 <TD> so it's not quite so trivial
2496 2013-04-12 12:52:39 Puccini has joined
2497 2013-04-12 12:52:40 skinnkavaj has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2498 2013-04-12 12:52:55 <TD> sorry, i need to go to a meeting.
2499 2013-04-12 12:52:58 <Lophie_> I didn't think it was trivial. But in my opinion this is important
2500 2013-04-12 12:52:59 <TD> i'll be back in 30 mins or so
2501 2013-04-12 12:53:02 zw has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2502 2013-04-12 12:53:08 <Lophie_> Thank you very much for tyhe info
2503 2013-04-12 12:53:10 Puccini has left ()
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2505 2013-04-12 12:54:02 <Lophie_> TYT
2506 2013-04-12 12:54:04 <Lophie_> and TY
2507 2013-04-12 12:54:18 <Lophie_> Hey guys I have another question may I ask again?
2508 2013-04-12 12:54:26 i2pRelay has joined
2509 2013-04-12 12:54:30 <Lophie_> Dev related I promise
2510 2013-04-12 12:54:53 <_dr> just ask
2511 2013-04-12 12:55:05 <Lophie_> :)
2512 2013-04-12 12:55:07 <Lophie_> question: Can a multi-signature address add/remove/edit one of the signatures?
2513 2013-04-12 12:55:08 cybermoron has joined
2514 2013-04-12 12:56:02 <Lophie_> Tips in the right direction at least guys. Thank you all
2515 2013-04-12 12:56:26 Siskiyou has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2516 2013-04-12 12:57:25 B0g4r7 has joined
2517 2013-04-12 12:58:42 danwalton has quit (Quit: danwalton)
2518 2013-04-12 12:59:02 <pjorrit_> addresses don't do actions
2519 2013-04-12 12:59:17 <Lophie_> You know what I mean -_-
2520 2013-04-12 12:59:33 <pjorrit_> i have no idea actually what you're trying to ask
2521 2013-04-12 13:00:26 Odyessus has joined
2522 2013-04-12 13:00:27 <Lophie_> ok I will try to rephrase it. If a multi-sig address was made. Latter can we modify add more signature to it?
2523 2013-04-12 13:00:48 <sipa> yes, but it wouldn't be the same address anymore
2524 2013-04-12 13:00:53 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2525 2013-04-12 13:01:14 <Lophie_> ah now I feel retarded
2526 2013-04-12 13:01:55 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2527 2013-04-12 13:02:09 <Lophie_> back to the board and markers -_-. Thanks man
2528 2013-04-12 13:02:20 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2529 2013-04-12 13:02:26 i2pRelay has joined
2530 2013-04-12 13:03:56 <pjorrit_> if you have enough users signing off on it you could spend the btc in the old multi-sig address to a new one
2531 2013-04-12 13:04:19 charliemurphy has joined
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2536 2013-04-12 13:08:06 <Jere_Jones> sipa: Do you make available the raw data used in your difficulty/network speed charts?
2537 2013-04-12 13:08:25 <bitnumus> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1c7ahh/we_are_mt_gox_ama/
2538 2013-04-12 13:08:28 Lophie_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2539 2013-04-12 13:08:45 <sipa> Jere_Jones: yes, it's called the blockchain :p
2540 2013-04-12 13:09:04 Prattler has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2541 2013-04-12 13:09:46 <Jere_Jones> But blocks don't have a generation timestamp... do they?
2542 2013-04-12 13:09:57 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2543 2013-04-12 13:10:11 Prattler has joined
2544 2013-04-12 13:10:29 <sipa> Jere_Jones: they have a timestamp
2545 2013-04-12 13:10:43 * Jere_Jones goes off to read specs...
2546 2013-04-12 13:10:48 <Jere_Jones> Thanks!
2547 2013-04-12 13:10:58 <sipa> Jere_Jones: the actually extracted data is here: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/blocks.txt (height, blkid, timestamp, difficulty, transactions)
2548 2013-04-12 13:11:12 Odyessus has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
2549 2013-04-12 13:11:14 chazmichaels2 has joined
2550 2013-04-12 13:12:15 <vrs> >What DDOS prevention methods do you utilize? CloudFlare does an amazing job for real websites. I bet you use nothing. Why? To kill Bitcoin?
2551 2013-04-12 13:12:19 <vrs> lol
2552 2013-04-12 13:12:34 <cads> hey #bitcoin-dev
2553 2013-04-12 13:12:34 <vrs> we have a ddos expert here
2554 2013-04-12 13:12:39 cap2002 has joined
2555 2013-04-12 13:12:41 charliemurphy has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2556 2013-04-12 13:12:49 <t7> if i write a crypto currency in agda, someone is gonna find out that agda is inconsistent and everyone will point and laugh at me
2557 2013-04-12 13:13:18 <cads> I've a question - where to go to talk about general cryptocurrency ideas?
2558 2013-04-12 13:13:23 darenthis has quit (Quit: darenthis)
2559 2013-04-12 13:13:35 <cads> t7: can you really do agda dev?
2560 2013-04-12 13:14:03 <t7> i can do babbys first proof, or equivalent
2561 2013-04-12 13:14:25 <cads> babby's first proof is to be born, right :D
2562 2013-04-12 13:14:37 <_dr> no, it has to be formed first!
2563 2013-04-12 13:15:03 michagogo has joined
2564 2013-04-12 13:15:14 <cads> this prompts the descriptive set theory problem, "how is babby formed?"
2565 2013-04-12 13:15:47 <_dr> by incuding the list of lists not containing itself into itself
2566 2013-04-12 13:15:55 <cads> t7: do you think agda would be the correct tool?
2567 2013-04-12 13:16:14 <t7> no, i think coq would be better
2568 2013-04-12 13:16:17 <cads> it can do its own formal verification and telescoping, right?
2569 2013-04-12 13:16:39 <t7> people actually write things in coq i think
2570 2013-04-12 13:16:41 rdymac has joined
2571 2013-04-12 13:16:45 <cads> t7, are you familiar with ertos/nicta's efforts in the L4 Verified kernel?
2572 2013-04-12 13:16:54 rdymac has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2573 2013-04-12 13:17:20 normanrichards has joined
2574 2013-04-12 13:17:31 <cads> They wrote the specs in Hol, and formally verified a haskell reference implementation, before optimizing and automatically converting to C
2575 2013-04-12 13:18:05 <t7> yeah i read about this
2576 2013-04-12 13:18:19 rdymac has joined
2577 2013-04-12 13:18:55 Casimir1904 has joined
2578 2013-04-12 13:19:03 <cads> hol is possibly nicer than coq, certainly less stigmatizing to utter, if you're an america.
2579 2013-04-12 13:19:26 hsmiths has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2580 2013-04-12 13:19:27 <t7> 200,000 lines of Isabelle proof script for 7500 lines of C :O
2581 2013-04-12 13:19:39 <HM2> TD: sadly the foundation forum isn't public
2582 2013-04-12 13:19:47 darenthis has joined
2583 2013-04-12 13:20:12 <cads> oh, this reminds me I need to review the ertos/nicta open offerings
2584 2013-04-12 13:20:28 <cads> t7: are there comparable works to reference in agda
2585 2013-04-12 13:20:36 <cads> t7: I'd love to use agda
2586 2013-04-12 13:21:06 <cads> I think the security access model would be very hard to create
2587 2013-04-12 13:21:17 <vrs> >Why the hell don't you use cloud techniques for auto-scaling???
2588 2013-04-12 13:21:18 <t7> things people have used agda for: http://wiki.portal.chalmers.se/agda/pmwiki.php?n=Main.Publications
2589 2013-04-12 13:21:20 <cads> It would be nice to use ertos'
2590 2013-04-12 13:21:22 <vrs> reddit armchair engineers
2591 2013-04-12 13:21:30 <cads> vrs: why do you care?
2592 2013-04-12 13:21:38 <vrs> I think it's fun
2593 2013-04-12 13:21:44 <t7> vrs, plebs are really mad because they lost their investments
2594 2013-04-12 13:22:00 <cads> hehe, you have a strong gut for it, then :)
2595 2013-04-12 13:22:11 <vrs> also I'm interested in mtgox's answers because I want to know if my assumptions about them are right
2596 2013-04-12 13:22:51 hsmiths has joined
2597 2013-04-12 13:24:34 chazmichaels2 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2598 2013-04-12 13:25:15 <cads> t7, I have a proposal for a disruptive alternative c-currency. I thought I might try using ertos' method to code it in haskell, singe agda scares the bejesus out of me
2599 2013-04-12 13:25:34 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2600 2013-04-12 13:25:48 <cads> t7: would you have the time to help me learn agda?
2601 2013-04-12 13:26:07 <t7> cads, im a bit of an agda noob but sure
2602 2013-04-12 13:26:10 chazmichaels2 has joined
2603 2013-04-12 13:26:23 <t7> the intro paper by Nils is great
2604 2013-04-12 13:26:40 <cads> t7: I've failed at that paper in the past for not knowing enough type theory
2605 2013-04-12 13:27:06 <cads> but hey, recently I've been doing more type theory, so maybe it'll be easier
2606 2013-04-12 13:27:34 <cads> ah in any case, I've since learned how to annotate and review poorly understood propositions with the community
2607 2013-04-12 13:27:35 <t7> do you remember where you were getting stuck?
2608 2013-04-12 13:27:55 <cads> t7: alas, no, but I'll get back to you
2609 2013-04-12 13:28:20 <cads> thanks a lot for the offer of time
2610 2013-04-12 13:28:51 <cads> you an #agda regular?
2611 2013-04-12 13:28:52 Guyver2 has joined
2612 2013-04-12 13:28:57 <t7> idler
2613 2013-04-12 13:29:33 CaptainBlaze has joined
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2615 2013-04-12 13:31:10 <TD> HM2: right, i know, was just an fyi if you are a member. basically the feedback i gave them was reflected in matthew greens blog post
2616 2013-04-12 13:31:24 <TD> HM2: he more or less rephrased what i told them. so that's good.
2617 2013-04-12 13:31:30 <Konnichiwa> Quick question: I'm trying to create transactions. I've created one and sent out the hash via the inv message, but no peers send me a getdata for the full information. Do the peers have to connect to me on 8333? At the moment I'm just connect to their 8333.
2618 2013-04-12 13:32:11 orblivion has joined
2619 2013-04-12 13:32:19 <TD> Konnichiwa: no. if you announce a hash then they should ask you for the data. try running your app against your own local node and examine debug.log to find out what you're doing wrong
2620 2013-04-12 13:33:08 <TD> HM2: http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2013/04/zerocoin-making-bitcoin-anonymous.html
2621 2013-04-12 13:33:35 <Konnichiwa> so they don't request it from 8333?
2622 2013-04-12 13:33:46 Odyessus has joined
2623 2013-04-12 13:33:47 <Konnichiwa> Because I only have connect to them, rather than reverse.
2624 2013-04-12 13:33:48 <pjorrit_> he's some nice blogposts
2625 2013-04-12 13:34:20 <TD> Konnichiwa: that makes no difference. tcp connections are two way
2626 2013-04-12 13:34:25 <TD> pjorrit_: indeed
2627 2013-04-12 13:34:35 <pjorrit_> eh.. + got lol
2628 2013-04-12 13:34:48 <cads> arright t7, at the earliest convenience I'll print and read Nils's paper, and annotate what I can't read, then give it another reading for good measure, and get back to you
2629 2013-04-12 13:34:49 <Konnichiwa> Yeah thought there may be logic to only request on outbound peers. I'll investigate more. Thanks.
2630 2013-04-12 13:34:57 oiram has joined
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2633 2013-04-12 13:37:18 <Konnichiwa> Was adding the VecInt twice. Cheers TD>
2634 2013-04-12 13:38:04 <TD> Konnichiwa: what are you doing, if you don't mind me asking?
2635 2013-04-12 13:38:08 darkee has joined
2636 2013-04-12 13:39:16 <Konnichiwa> Course not. I'm very interested in bitcoins, looked at them years ago but never really paid much attention. I later wanted to take bitcoins on my ecommerce site but there was no really good platform for that. Now with trading volumes increasing I want to take bitcoins as a payment method. I want to understand more about how it works and the protocol etc, so I'm building my own payment
2637 2013-04-12 13:39:16 <Konnichiwa> provider.
2638 2013-04-12 13:39:35 easy-iPad has quit (Quit: Outta here?)
2639 2013-04-12 13:39:40 <TD> ok
2640 2013-04-12 13:39:41 mercerist has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2641 2013-04-12 13:39:47 <Konnichiwa> You learn a lot more by writing it from the ground up than using someones API.
2642 2013-04-12 13:39:56 Kris_away has joined
2643 2013-04-12 13:40:12 <TD> sounds good. just bear in mind - that's a big project, it's complicated, easy to screw up, etc. for learning it's a great idea. for launching a real product that handles real money, consider pooling your efforts with an existing API implementation
2644 2013-04-12 13:40:26 <Konnichiwa> Yeah it is a big project.
2645 2013-04-12 13:40:42 <jsfsn> Konnichiwa: Why not use bitcoind's api?
2646 2013-04-12 13:40:44 <Konnichiwa> Something that 'just works' for me will be easy but making it scale larger is more complex :)
2647 2013-04-12 13:40:57 <Konnichiwa> the RPC? because it won't scale
2648 2013-04-12 13:41:10 <Kris_away> Yo, I'm a random guy who has a stupidly large FPGA board sitting around and I'm not sure if I should EBAY it for $4000 or mine with it... anyone know about much money ~4 Ghash would make a month?
2649 2013-04-12 13:41:26 <jsfsn> Kannichiwa: Well, you can use mutiple nodes
2650 2013-04-12 13:41:47 <Konnichiwa> Yeah but thats not scaling with code that scaling with cash.
2651 2013-04-12 13:42:12 <jsfsn> Konnichiwa: And scaling with code is not scaling with cash?
2652 2013-04-12 13:42:19 <Konnichiwa> I see what you mean though, would get me up and running, but part of the project is clearning how it all works.
2653 2013-04-12 13:42:27 <Konnichiwa> It is if your paying a developer I suppose.
2654 2013-04-12 13:42:31 <TD> Kris_away: google for bitcoin mining calculator
2655 2013-04-12 13:42:34 <Konnichiwa> But if you between contracts its not :)
2656 2013-04-12 13:42:58 <Konnichiwa> Plus then I can offer my Payment Provider to other users.
2657 2013-04-12 13:43:10 <jsfsn> You can with bitcoind as well
2658 2013-04-12 13:43:16 <TD> we definitely need good merchant-facing software
2659 2013-04-12 13:43:18 <TD> it's a serious lack
2660 2013-04-12 13:43:21 <TD> but yes, huge project.
2661 2013-04-12 13:43:26 <TD> (to do all from scratch)
2662 2013-04-12 13:43:28 median^ has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2663 2013-04-12 13:43:48 <vrs> Kris_away: http://dustcoin.com/mining
2664 2013-04-12 13:43:49 <Konnichiwa> Not undoable though.
2665 2013-04-12 13:43:54 <jsfsn> You can start with bitcoind at least
2666 2013-04-12 13:44:05 agricocb has joined
2667 2013-04-12 13:44:12 <TD> not undoable, indeed
2668 2013-04-12 13:44:13 <TD> best of luck
2669 2013-04-12 13:44:42 <Konnichiwa> jsfsn: I'm at the stage of communicating with peers (addr), retriving transactions that have happened (inv, getdata), processing those (storing outputs in a wallet). Next stage is sending transactions.
2670 2013-04-12 13:44:44 <Konnichiwa> Thanks TD.
2671 2013-04-12 13:45:30 <jsfsn> Quite far indeed
2672 2013-04-12 13:45:31 savant has joined
2673 2013-04-12 13:45:56 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
2674 2013-04-12 13:46:00 <Konnichiwa> Small things just bite you in the ass for an hour until you realise one 'bit' is missing. But thats programming for you :)
2675 2013-04-12 13:46:14 <Konnichiwa> Expecially the kind of reverse engineering job it is dealing with the bitcoin protocol.
2676 2013-04-12 13:46:24 <Konnichiwa> Anyway, leave you guys be.
2677 2013-04-12 13:46:37 <Konnichiwa> Tx for the help.
2678 2013-04-12 13:46:46 <jsfsn> At least you'll be quite familiar with the bitcoin api (:
2679 2013-04-12 13:46:50 <Konnichiwa> Exactly.
2680 2013-04-12 13:46:56 <jsfsn> err, protocol
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2695 2013-04-12 13:55:30 <Konnichiwa> Getting somewhere :) Now my Satoshi client complaining about fees :)
2696 2013-04-12 13:55:38 <Konnichiwa> I'll add a fee.
2697 2013-04-12 13:56:08 Elmf has joined
2698 2013-04-12 13:56:09 <TD> great. how are you building the transaction? you implemented a wallet already or hard-coding the tx data?
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2700 2013-04-12 13:56:30 <Konnichiwa> I've built a wallet and all the classes etc.
2701 2013-04-12 13:56:37 <TD> wow, nice. that's far along already.
2702 2013-04-12 13:56:45 <Konnichiwa> Networking and stuff is all looking good, event model.
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2705 2013-04-12 13:57:05 <Konnichiwa> Wallet and signing of addresses and transactions is a bit of a mess whilst I figure it out.
2706 2013-04-12 13:57:11 <TD> yeah
2707 2013-04-12 13:57:15 <Konnichiwa> Once i'm happy i'll refactor it.
2708 2013-04-12 13:57:20 <TD> gotta handle re-orgs and so on too. what language are you using?
2709 2013-04-12 13:57:42 <Konnichiwa> Not looked at dealing with blocks yet (don't shout) so still a way to go.
2710 2013-04-12 13:57:43 <Konnichiwa> C#
2711 2013-04-12 13:57:44 Insti has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2712 2013-04-12 13:57:48 <TD> ok
2713 2013-04-12 13:57:58 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2714 2013-04-12 13:58:15 <TD> someone was automatically converting bitcoinj into C# at some point, but he fell behind a long time ago
2715 2013-04-12 13:58:24 <Konnichiwa> Yeah seen that
2716 2013-04-12 13:58:42 <Konnichiwa> I'm not sure about it though.
2717 2013-04-12 13:58:48 <RoboTeddy> TD code too fast for automatic language translator to keep up
2718 2013-04-12 13:58:59 <TD> it's not the way i'd have done it
2719 2013-04-12 13:59:03 <Konnichiwa> Decided I'd learn more with my own and probably be more suited for my specific needs.
2720 2013-04-12 13:59:11 <TD> things like IKVM seem like a better approach. but i didn't do any .net development
2721 2013-04-12 13:59:13 <Konnichiwa> Oh has it been automatically converted from JAVA?
2722 2013-04-12 13:59:20 <TD> yeah
2723 2013-04-12 13:59:26 <Konnichiwa> No wonder I thought I was going mad.
2724 2013-04-12 13:59:30 <TD> bitcoin-sharp?
2725 2013-04-12 13:59:33 <Konnichiwa> yeah
2726 2013-04-12 13:59:42 <TD> the original is at http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj
2727 2013-04-12 13:59:45 <TD> and yes it's java
2728 2013-04-12 13:59:51 <RoboTeddy> is there a client written in python? if not I might start hacking at one
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2730 2013-04-12 14:00:01 <TD> there are lots and lots of python clients, none of which are anywhere near complete.
2731 2013-04-12 14:00:01 <Konnichiwa> Yeah the .NET one is assigning variables it doesnt use and all sorts.
2732 2013-04-12 14:00:07 <TD> if all you want to do is serialize a few messages, they're fine
2733 2013-04-12 14:00:17 <TD> Konnichiwa: well, it's also ancient, iirc
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2735 2013-04-12 14:00:21 <RoboTeddy> writing a complete client looks quite challenging
2736 2013-04-12 14:00:26 <Konnichiwa> Fair enough, hopefully have a decent one when I'm finished.
2737 2013-04-12 14:00:43 <Konnichiwa> I've never done any Java.
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2739 2013-04-12 14:00:54 <Konnichiwa> I'm a C# contractor, when I'm contracting.
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2742 2013-04-12 14:01:17 <Konnichiwa> 0.0005 BTC is 50000 Satoshi?
2743 2013-04-12 14:02:13 <RoboTeddy> Konnichiwa: 50000 satoshi = 0.00005 btc I believe
2744 2013-04-12 14:02:27 <Konnichiwa> ok ta, just working out how much fee to add to my Tx.
2745 2013-04-12 14:02:30 <Scrat> Konnichiwa: yes
2746 2013-04-12 14:02:47 <RoboTeddy> Scrat: whoops, did I get it wrong? 0.00000001 btc/satoshi I thought
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2748 2013-04-12 14:03:06 <chazmichaels2> Have you looked into rust? Programming language
2749 2013-04-12 14:03:11 orblivion has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2750 2013-04-12 14:03:39 <Konnichiwa> not looked at it chaz.
2751 2013-04-12 14:03:40 <Scrat> RoboTeddy: that's right, multiply that by 50k
2752 2013-04-12 14:04:03 <RoboTeddy> Scrat: Oh. good call. Konnichiwa -- you were right originally. I missed a zero
2753 2013-04-12 14:04:43 <Konnichiwa> NP :)
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2762 2013-04-12 14:10:07 <Konnichiwa> ERROR: CScriptCheck() : 1911b6d019 VerifySignature failed
2763 2013-04-12 14:10:07 <Konnichiwa> ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : ConnectInputs failed 1911b6d019
2764 2013-04-12 14:10:07 <Konnichiwa> Warning: Local node 127.0.0.1:22546 misbehaving (delta: 100)!
2765 2013-04-12 14:10:18 <TD> needs more work, huh
2766 2013-04-12 14:10:33 <Konnichiwa> Getting these errors, so the Satoshi client is now validating the Transaction and finding it is not signed correctly?
2767 2013-04-12 14:10:39 <TD> indeed
2768 2013-04-12 14:10:53 <Konnichiwa> Okay. I'll work on my Script processor and get it to validate the transaction first.
2769 2013-04-12 14:10:56 <TD> check that you're calculating the sighash correctly
2770 2013-04-12 14:11:11 <Konnichiwa> Will do. Ta
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2798 2013-04-12 14:32:27 <slavik03292> hey, is there anyway to get a TX in raw form from blockchain?
2799 2013-04-12 14:32:48 <slavik03292> blockchain.info i mean
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2811 2013-04-12 14:43:10 <Konnichiwa> Question: I'm validating the transactions using OP_CHECKSIG. It says it needs 'TxPrev'. Is this an Input or Output, and if I'm operating on the first Output I will not have a TxPrev, what happens in this case?
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2815 2013-04-12 14:44:38 <slavik03292> Konnichiwa: Only Inputs have TxPrev I think
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2818 2013-04-12 14:46:22 <Konnichiwa> This seems to think there is always one? https://en.bitcoin.it/w/images/en/7/70/Bitcoin_OpCheckSig_InDetail.png
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2821 2013-04-12 14:47:42 <Konnichiwa> TD: Your Java code looks like it uses the current Output script (+with the input prefixed).
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2827 2013-04-12 14:52:09 <TD> Konnichiwa: yes it inserts the scriptPubKey into the input script area
2828 2013-04-12 14:52:09 <TD> but without a prefixed input
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2830 2013-04-12 14:52:30 <Konnichiwa> Okay.... Think I'm getting it. The same signing process but in reverse.
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2863 2013-04-12 15:14:11 <daveluke> is there a "build a bot" site for people without coding experience?
2864 2013-04-12 15:14:17 savant has joined
2865 2013-04-12 15:14:17 <daveluke> and if not, you think there's a need?
2866 2013-04-12 15:14:41 <TD> a bot?
2867 2013-04-12 15:14:59 <daveluke> like an algorithmic trader
2868 2013-04-12 15:15:06 Xexe has joined
2869 2013-04-12 15:15:32 <daveluke> basically the user would be able to input the conditions to sell or buy
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2871 2013-04-12 15:16:11 <TD> i don't believe there is such a site
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2879 2013-04-12 15:18:51 <HM2> hmmm
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2898 2013-04-12 15:27:08 <jaromil> jgarzik: I'm almost there. lovely code rly. one quick q in case you are there: how do I get a bp_tx from a bp_inv struct in picocoin?
2899 2013-04-12 15:27:41 czaanja has joined
2900 2013-04-12 15:29:45 <flyingkiwiguy> Zerocoin academic paper here: http://spar.isi.jhu.edu/~mgreen/ZerocoinOakland.pdf
2901 2013-04-12 15:29:54 <bitnumus> hi, how do i broadcast a transaction myself?
2902 2013-04-12 15:30:20 <helo> bitnumus: sendrawtransaction
2903 2013-04-12 15:30:33 <bitnumus> how do i get the raw TX in hex?
2904 2013-04-12 15:30:42 <helo> getrawtransaction <txid>
2905 2013-04-12 15:30:54 <bitnumus> o i see what im not doing here
2906 2013-04-12 15:31:18 <helo> (this should be in #bitcoin btw)
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2908 2013-04-12 15:31:58 <michagogo> [17:10:14] <slavik03292> hey, is there anyway to get a TX in raw form from blockchain?
2909 2013-04-12 15:31:58 <michagogo> There's an API for that, http://blockchain.info/api/blockchain_api
2910 2013-04-12 15:32:03 <sipa> sendrawtransaction works only by processing a transaction as if it was received from network
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2912 2013-04-12 15:32:17 <sipa> that means that if you already have the transactions, it doesn'r work
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2915 2013-04-12 15:32:38 <sipa> thus: sendrawtransaction of getrawtransaction will never work
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2917 2013-04-12 15:33:11 * michagogo filed an issue about that yesterday
2918 2013-04-12 15:33:25 * sipa knows
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2930 2013-04-12 15:36:13 <diki> Trying my luck at solo-mining with 277mh/s
2931 2013-04-12 15:36:28 <michagogo> sipa: Oh, right
2932 2013-04-12 15:36:37 <michagogo> Didn't recognize you without your @
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2935 2013-04-12 15:37:57 orblivion has joined
2936 2013-04-12 15:37:58 <diki> btw
2937 2013-04-12 15:38:08 <diki> does getdifficulty rpc command return the current difficulty or the previous?
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2968 2013-04-12 15:48:22 <jgarzik> jaromil: bp_inv just lists a hash, and a type ("tx" or "block")
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2971 2013-04-12 15:48:48 <jgarzik> jaromil: once you receive a inv with (tx, $hash) list, you use that message to request "tx" messages from your peers
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2980 2013-04-12 15:51:19 <tgs3> Im not sure this is best channel to ask this, but can someone controll paniq admin? he bans even for joking "I will give btc to first 10 white people" heh
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2983 2013-04-12 15:51:50 <BladeMcCool> if I want to do a multisig transaction 2 of 2, one server has 1 key, another server has the other key ... how to they both sign it? will signrawtransaction add a signature to a rawtransaction that has already been signed by the first key?
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2987 2013-04-12 15:53:04 <BladeMcCool> also is there a limit to the number of outputs in a transaction?
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2991 2013-04-12 15:54:47 <MC1984> i suppose the output limit is the blocksize limit
2992 2013-04-12 15:55:04 <MC1984> pactically unlimited really
2993 2013-04-12 15:55:31 <TD> no
2994 2013-04-12 15:55:36 <TD> there are transaction size limits
2995 2013-04-12 15:55:41 <TD> really, the best way to answer these questions is to read the source
2996 2013-04-12 15:55:43 <sipa> TD: not afaik
2997 2013-04-12 15:55:49 <TD> no?
2998 2013-04-12 15:55:50 <sipa> transactions are limited to the block size
2999 2013-04-12 15:56:01 atcsecure has joined
3000 2013-04-12 15:56:04 <Diablo-D3> http://tapastic.com/episode/3686
3001 2013-04-12 15:56:12 <etotheipi_> does Bitcoin-Qt re-register itself as URI-handler on every load?
3002 2013-04-12 15:56:20 <BladeMcCool> ok ty for infos.
3003 2013-04-12 15:56:27 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3004 2013-04-12 15:56:28 * TD reads the source
3005 2013-04-12 15:56:30 <jaromil> jgarzik: ok! where is such a request done?
3006 2013-04-12 15:56:49 <sipa> BladeMcCool: making larger and larger transactions becomes increasingly expensive in fees though, using typical relay/mining policies
3007 2013-04-12 15:57:00 i2pRelay has joined
3008 2013-04-12 15:57:06 <atcsecure> is anybody else sick of waiting for avalon?
3009 2013-04-12 15:57:21 std4 has left ()
3010 2013-04-12 15:57:56 <TD> sipa: there's a relay size limit, no?
3011 2013-04-12 15:58:06 <BladeMcCool> sipa: thank you for info. any idea on the multisig signing?
3012 2013-04-12 15:58:06 <jaromil> I see in brd where blocks are requested not tx
3013 2013-04-12 15:58:23 <sipa> TD: unsure about that; orphans above a certain size are dropped
3014 2013-04-12 15:58:33 <sipa> there may be a generic relay policy too
3015 2013-04-12 15:58:53 <TD> sipa: i added code to bitcoinj lately that bails if a constructed transaction is larger than 100kb
3016 2013-04-12 15:59:02 <sipa> BladeMcCool: signrawtransaction will sign whatever it can, and not touch what it doesn'ty
3017 2013-04-12 15:59:04 <TD> and i think it was the result of some discussions about relay policy. the comment i wrote says they won't be relayed.
3018 2013-04-12 15:59:11 <TD> but i don't remember the c++ side :)
3019 2013-04-12 15:59:17 <sipa> BladeMcCool: so it can produce a partially-signed transaction
3020 2013-04-12 15:59:51 <BladeMcCool> sipa and then bitcoind on another machine can take that partially signed transaction and add the final signature to it?
3021 2013-04-12 16:00:06 <atcsecure> would it be possible to leverage a security crypto processor asic's instead of having a custom one developed?
3022 2013-04-12 16:00:07 <TD> ah yes
3023 2013-04-12 16:00:07 <sipa> BladeMcCool: yes
3024 2013-04-12 16:00:08 <TD> static const unsigned int MAX_STANDARD_TX_SIZE = MAX_BLOCK_SIZE_GEN/5;
3025 2013-04-12 16:00:13 <TD> /** The maximum size for transactions we're willing to relay/mine */
3026 2013-04-12 16:00:19 <BladeMcCool> super that is great, thank you again for the info.
3027 2013-04-12 16:00:34 <sipa> TD: right, so 100 kB
3028 2013-04-12 16:00:38 <TD> indee
3029 2013-04-12 16:00:40 <TD> indeed
3030 2013-04-12 16:01:55 <jaromil> jgarzik: something like nc_conn_send(conn, "gettx" ?
3031 2013-04-12 16:02:50 <sipa> jaromil: if you want to request the data belonging to an inventory item, the command is "getdata"
3032 2013-04-12 16:02:58 <sipa> jaromil: i don't know jgarzik's code though
3033 2013-04-12 16:03:02 <jaromil> ack
3034 2013-04-12 16:03:15 Odyessus has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
3035 2013-04-12 16:03:58 <sipa> TD, Goonie_: i have android wallet 3.0 now from the market, and it still seems to show my trusted peer twice in peer monitor (with different latency)
3036 2013-04-12 16:04:23 <TD> it always does that?
3037 2013-04-12 16:04:27 yeahoffline has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3038 2013-04-12 16:04:27 <diki> does getdifficulty rpc command return the current difficulty or the previous?
3039 2013-04-12 16:04:28 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3040 2013-04-12 16:04:44 <sipa> TD: i've seen it at least 3 times now
3041 2013-04-12 16:04:45 <TD> unfortunately, bitcoinj can sometimes connect to the same peer twice. long standing bug, i never got around to fixing it because it's rare. but if your peer is served by a dns seed and also is set as your trusted peer, maybe it can happen more often
3042 2013-04-12 16:04:59 ProfMac has joined
3043 2013-04-12 16:05:00 i2pRelay has joined
3044 2013-04-12 16:05:05 <TD> i thought trusted peer meant that the app would only connect to your peer and nothing else though
3045 2013-04-12 16:05:05 <Goonie_> sipa: do you have "skip regular peer discovery" checked?
3046 2013-04-12 16:05:17 <sipa> Goonie_: no, if i do, there's just one peer iirc
3047 2013-04-12 16:05:29 Guest39944 is now known as |Clown|
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3049 2013-04-12 16:05:30 has joined
3050 2013-04-12 16:06:16 <Goonie_> TD, sipa: in this mode, I need to do horrible workarounds. There is several enhancement requests open for some time in bitcoinj.
3051 2013-04-12 16:06:19 <sipa> yup, and again
3052 2013-04-12 16:06:22 BladeMcCool has quit (Quit: much appreciate the insightful help. thanks again.)
3053 2013-04-12 16:06:31 <sipa> 3 peers, two of which are my trusted peer
3054 2013-04-12 16:06:50 czaanja has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3055 2013-04-12 16:07:07 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3056 2013-04-12 16:07:14 <TD> why are there 3 peers if there's only one trusted peer set? Goonie_, you just do peerGroup.addAddress() in that case?
3057 2013-04-12 16:07:20 <TD> it shouldn't connect 3 times in that setpu
3058 2013-04-12 16:07:25 <TD> setup. man my typing is bad today.
3059 2013-04-12 16:07:35 <Goonie_> TD: no, I've implemented an own peer discovery
3060 2013-04-12 16:07:46 <sipa> TD: this is with 'skip regular peer discovery' off
3061 2013-04-12 16:08:02 <sipa> now 6 peers, two of which are my trusted peer
3062 2013-04-12 16:08:06 <sipa> let me turn trusted peer off
3063 2013-04-12 16:09:19 <TD> ok
3064 2013-04-12 16:09:26 Anduck has joined
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3066 2013-04-12 16:09:26 Anduck has joined
3067 2013-04-12 16:09:35 <TD> Goonie_: which issue is the one for why you can't just use addAddress ?
3068 2013-04-12 16:09:37 AlbertTuring has joined
3069 2013-04-12 16:10:20 <Goonie_> addAddress is not usable for trusted peers because it keeps forgetting that address
3070 2013-04-12 16:10:23 Belxjander has joined
3071 2013-04-12 16:10:38 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
3072 2013-04-12 16:10:44 <TD> you mean if the remote peer disconnects?
3073 2013-04-12 16:10:49 <Goonie_> this is why I was asked for different classes of peer addresses kind of (like sticky addresses)
3074 2013-04-12 16:10:57 <Goonie_> yes, for example
3075 2013-04-12 16:11:00 <TD> i see
3076 2013-04-12 16:11:20 <Goonie_> also addAddress blocks
3077 2013-04-12 16:11:26 <Goonie_> which is very inconvenient
3078 2013-04-12 16:11:39 <TD> yes, ok. i see. we can throw it on the pile. for now the bugfixes i mentioned before take priority, sorry.
3079 2013-04-12 16:11:46 <TD> trusted peer isn't a common use case. maybe it'll be so in future.
3080 2013-04-12 16:11:53 <TD> but most users don't have their own node.
3081 2013-04-12 16:12:04 <Goonie_> yes, it works for now.
3082 2013-04-12 16:12:30 <sipa> and again
3083 2013-04-12 16:12:34 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3084 2013-04-12 16:12:35 paulo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3085 2013-04-12 16:12:46 <sipa> anyone else has a public node? then i can try with another trusted peer
3086 2013-04-12 16:12:58 paulo_ has joined
3087 2013-04-12 16:13:02 <TD> riker.plan99.net
3088 2013-04-12 16:13:05 i2pRelay has joined
3089 2013-04-12 16:13:06 egis has joined
3090 2013-04-12 16:13:19 <Goonie_> sipa: do you connect to a dns that lists your node prominently?
3091 2013-04-12 16:13:27 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
3092 2013-04-12 16:13:43 <sipa> Goonie_: well, my trusted IS a seed node :)
3093 2013-04-12 16:13:52 <Goonie_> sipa: in this case its expected
3094 2013-04-12 16:13:59 Belxjander has quit (Client Quit)
3095 2013-04-12 16:14:00 <sipa> why?
3096 2013-04-12 16:14:15 has quit (Clown|!~clown@unaffiliated/clown/x-0272709|Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3097 2013-04-12 16:14:24 <sipa> my seed node shouldn't return itself as good destination
3098 2013-04-12 16:14:25 <Goonie_> sipa: I add the trusted peer, and I add the results of the dns discovery. If this is the same, it's added twice
3099 2013-04-12 16:14:42 <sipa> no, this peer runs the seed, it's not necessary the result of a seed lookup
3100 2013-04-12 16:15:00 <sipa> now i have 2 nodes each being connected to twice
3101 2013-04-12 16:15:06 <sipa> one of them is TD's
3102 2013-04-12 16:15:11 debork has joined
3103 2013-04-12 16:15:12 lodse has joined
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3106 2013-04-12 16:15:32 lodse has joined
3107 2013-04-12 16:15:41 <TD> that sounds buggy
3108 2013-04-12 16:15:55 <Goonie_> its not really buggy, its just not finished
3109 2013-04-12 16:15:56 <sipa> so it's not just because of the trusted peer
3110 2013-04-12 16:16:15 <sipa> or at least, the beahviour may be triggered by trusted peer logic, but isn't limited to just the trusted peer
3111 2013-04-12 16:16:17 <TD> well, trusted peer should not appear twice. unless my node is now also being vended by dns
3112 2013-04-12 16:16:26 * TD takes a quick look at the code
3113 2013-04-12 16:16:30 <debork> question: gox sending btc out has been 'slow' in the time to show up on any blockchain browsers. but, the timestamps when they were initiated shows a very fast turnaround
3114 2013-04-12 16:16:33 <debork> where is this failing?
3115 2013-04-12 16:16:37 Tritonio has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3116 2013-04-12 16:16:37 <sipa> TD: yes, but now there's even a completely different node i'm connected to twice
3117 2013-04-12 16:16:49 atcsecure has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3118 2013-04-12 16:17:01 Tritonio has joined
3119 2013-04-12 16:17:05 <Goonie_> ok I'll explain: In order for that mode to work, I need to take control over the list of peers to connect to
3120 2013-04-12 16:17:25 <Goonie_> because bitcoinj randomly picks the N peers to connect to, I need to trim that list to N
3121 2013-04-12 16:17:40 <Goonie_> now, if one peer cannot be connected to, bitcoinj picks the first again
3122 2013-04-12 16:18:00 <Goonie_> this is why I reported tickets for a) not connecting to the same peer twice
3123 2013-04-12 16:18:00 <sipa> ah
3124 2013-04-12 16:18:08 <sipa> i understand
3125 2013-04-12 16:18:08 pauklo__ has joined
3126 2013-04-12 16:18:10 <diki> Does bitcoin use leveldb or bdb?
3127 2013-04-12 16:18:13 <Goonie_> and b) allow the client to randomize
3128 2013-04-12 16:18:24 <TD> diki: leveldb in 0.8+
3129 2013-04-12 16:18:26 <Goonie_> (or not randomize)
3130 2013-04-12 16:18:35 <TD> ok
3131 2013-04-12 16:19:09 <Goonie_> connecting to the same peer twice is a bug IMHO
3132 2013-04-12 16:19:14 _anon has joined
3133 2013-04-12 16:19:24 <TD> yes
3134 2013-04-12 16:19:25 <TD> i agree
3135 2013-04-12 16:19:29 <Goonie_> regarding the taking control, it could also be handled by a priority list
3136 2013-04-12 16:19:36 Michail1_ is now known as Michail1
3137 2013-04-12 16:19:36 paulo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
3138 2013-04-12 16:19:40 <Goonie_> that would be nice to have
3139 2013-04-12 16:20:06 <diki> Is there a specific version for leveldb I need, or do newer ones provide backwards compatability?
3140 2013-04-12 16:20:35 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3141 2013-04-12 16:20:45 <TD> diki: it's bundled in the code
3142 2013-04-12 16:20:52 <diki> cool
3143 2013-04-12 16:21:07 i2pRelay has joined
3144 2013-04-12 16:21:08 <diki> Let's see if I can compile it under MinGW and Windows
3145 2013-04-12 16:21:44 <HM2> lol
3146 2013-04-12 16:21:50 AlbertTuring has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
3147 2013-04-12 16:22:03 <HM2> just found some code that takes the string "Green Bottles" and hashes it 10 times
3148 2013-04-12 16:22:21 <diki> In bitcoin?
3149 2013-04-12 16:22:25 <HM2> no, of course not
3150 2013-04-12 16:22:37 <diki> a private key?
3151 2013-04-12 16:22:55 <diki> like those brain wallets
3152 2013-04-12 16:22:58 <slavik03292> can someone help me. i want to build an interface for multisig transactions and address generation. I'm a PHP dev
3153 2013-04-12 16:23:02 <HM2> no, a crappy hash based counter in some random code a friend wrote
3154 2013-04-12 16:23:15 Ashaman has joined
3155 2013-04-12 16:23:21 <diki> What is it's relevance to bitcoin?
3156 2013-04-12 16:23:29 <HM2> none
3157 2013-04-12 16:24:04 chmod755 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3158 2013-04-12 16:24:28 <TD> hashing!
3159 2013-04-12 16:24:38 <HM2> just an amusing ancedote
3160 2013-04-12 16:24:39 <TD> also bitcoin competes with the dollar, which is green
3161 2013-04-12 16:25:37 stainrat has joined
3162 2013-04-12 16:25:56 <sipa> and what on earth is not in some way related to bottles?
3163 2013-04-12 16:26:12 <HM2> Bottles -> beer -> beer while coding
3164 2013-04-12 16:26:14 <HM2> it's all good
3165 2013-04-12 16:27:09 Puccini_ has joined
3166 2013-04-12 16:27:18 <sipa> also, all programming starts with 99 bottles
3167 2013-04-12 16:27:35 <pauklo__> hmm
3168 2013-04-12 16:27:42 darenthis has quit (Quit: darenthis)
3169 2013-04-12 16:27:44 <pauklo__> I've never tried programming while drunk
3170 2013-04-12 16:27:48 <pauklo__> (or high)
3171 2013-04-12 16:27:53 <pauklo__> must be interesting
3172 2013-04-12 16:28:09 scribble has joined
3173 2013-04-12 16:28:33 daveluke_ has joined
3174 2013-04-12 16:28:38 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3175 2013-04-12 16:28:44 <moore> pauklo__, and the next day you get a code hangover where you look at your code and have know idea what you were thinking
3176 2013-04-12 16:28:46 daveluke has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3177 2013-04-12 16:28:46 daveluke_ is now known as daveluke
3178 2013-04-12 16:28:58 * TD -> home
3179 2013-04-12 16:29:01 TD has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3180 2013-04-12 16:29:09 i2pRelay has joined
3181 2013-04-12 16:29:21 <HM2> sipa: I don't suppose it hurts. it doesn't really matter how you generate trials to produce a proof of work, right?
3182 2013-04-12 16:29:40 Puccini_ is now known as Puccini
3183 2013-04-12 16:30:44 * HM2 shrugs
3184 2013-04-12 16:32:14 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3185 2013-04-12 16:33:18 <MC1984> why doest getinfo show your blockheight
3186 2013-04-12 16:33:24 <debork> relevant xkcd
3187 2013-04-12 16:33:29 polrpaul has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3188 2013-04-12 16:34:24 skinnkavaj has joined
3189 2013-04-12 16:34:28 gfinn has joined
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3191 2013-04-12 16:35:36 daveluke has joined
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3194 2013-04-12 16:37:59 Cache_Money has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3195 2013-04-12 16:38:34 <Diablo-D3> http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/04/12/it-made-sense-yesterday-the-libertarian-party-is-accepting-donations-in-bitcoin/
3196 2013-04-12 16:39:23 spooky_ has quit (Quit: Verlassend)
3197 2013-04-12 16:40:53 savantguy has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3198 2013-04-12 16:42:34 mercerist has joined
3199 2013-04-12 16:42:36 <sipa> MC1984: why does it?
3200 2013-04-12 16:42:38 andyh2 has joined
3201 2013-04-12 16:42:41 debork has left ("Leaving")
3202 2013-04-12 16:43:04 qeb has joined
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3208 2013-04-12 16:45:58 <MC1984> seems like an important bit of info
3209 2013-04-12 16:46:29 jaequery has joined
3210 2013-04-12 16:48:08 <sipa> so, that's why it
3211 2013-04-12 16:48:10 <sipa> so, that's why it's there?
3212 2013-04-12 16:48:12 <diki> is it possible to build bitcoin-qt directly on Windows?
3213 2013-04-12 16:48:32 <sipa> diki: perhaps; Diapolo does that, but he's about the only one i think
3214 2013-04-12 16:48:49 <MC1984> ?
3215 2013-04-12 16:48:53 danwalton has joined
3216 2013-04-12 16:49:10 <sipa> MC1984: are you complaining that it's there, or that it isn't?
3217 2013-04-12 16:49:12 <diki> sipa:Are there any problems that might prevent it to build?
3218 2013-04-12 16:49:27 <MC1984> well im not complaining
3219 2013-04-12 16:49:32 <sipa> diki: the dependencies and compiler suite are a horror to get right
3220 2013-04-12 16:49:35 <MC1984> but i noticed its not there
3221 2013-04-12 16:49:49 <diki> MC1984:No, you said [19:11:27] <MC1984> why doest getinfo show your blockheight
3222 2013-04-12 16:49:52 <sipa> "blocks" : 231008,
3223 2013-04-12 16:50:21 <MC1984> shit i am blind.......
3224 2013-04-12 16:50:28 FredEE has joined
3225 2013-04-12 16:51:19 <MC1984> well derp, crisis averted
3226 2013-04-12 16:51:57 Hans-Martin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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3233 2013-04-12 16:55:11 <diki> Looks like it's going to be a pain in the ass to build bitcoin-qt directly on Windows.
3234 2013-04-12 16:55:11 drizztbsd has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3235 2013-04-12 16:55:20 cybermoron has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3236 2013-04-12 16:55:21 <diki> I will still give it a try
3237 2013-04-12 16:55:35 <MaxValor> why such a pita?
3238 2013-04-12 16:55:38 <MaxValor> the download?
3239 2013-04-12 16:56:00 fanquake has left ()
3240 2013-04-12 16:56:40 vigilyn2 is now known as vigilyn
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3244 2013-04-12 16:57:17 <sipa> MaxValor: even the official binaries are just built on ubuntu using crosscompiling; it's easier to get working and keep working
3245 2013-04-12 16:59:33 <MaxValor> I'm running it on my win7 machine
3246 2013-04-12 16:59:39 <MaxValor> no complaints here
3247 2013-04-12 16:59:46 <sipa> MaxValor: we're not talking about running; it's about building
3248 2013-04-12 16:59:47 <sipa> compiling
3249 2013-04-12 17:00:15 <MaxValor> the executable, or the blockchain
3250 2013-04-12 17:00:25 <sipa> the executable
3251 2013-04-12 17:00:46 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3252 2013-04-12 17:01:13 Diapolis has joined
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3255 2013-04-12 17:03:51 TD has joined
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3262 2013-04-12 17:08:49 <jaromil> jgarzik: i'm still not sure how to read the getdata answer from the nc_conn structure, will wait for your advice on that. the rest I wanted is all pretty much done
3263 2013-04-12 17:09:24 i2pRelay has joined
3264 2013-04-12 17:09:39 CaptainBlaze has joined
3265 2013-04-12 17:10:43 * jaromil smells like teen spirit
3266 2013-04-12 17:10:55 sl1982 has joined
3267 2013-04-12 17:12:25 <diki> is qt5 supported?
3268 2013-04-12 17:12:30 <diki> or is 4.8 mandatory?
3269 2013-04-12 17:13:00 <sipa> 4.8 is needed
3270 2013-04-12 17:13:14 daybyter has joined
3271 2013-04-12 17:13:18 fishfish has joined
3272 2013-04-12 17:13:24 <sipa> there's a pullreq for qt5 supprt, but it won't be merged for 0.8.2
3273 2013-04-12 17:13:34 <diki> Which compiler is used to produce bitcoin-qt for windows binaries from linux?
3274 2013-04-12 17:13:44 CaptainBlaze has quit (Client Quit)
3275 2013-04-12 17:14:04 <pauklo__> I can't seem to think of anything else that requires distributed p2p consensus.
3276 2013-04-12 17:14:07 <diki> Because QT 4.8 may not support the newest gcc.
3277 2013-04-12 17:15:09 <sipa> mingw32, a relatively old gcc
3278 2013-04-12 17:15:24 <diki> yeah..4.4 then
3279 2013-04-12 17:15:28 <sipa> likely yes
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3282 2013-04-12 17:17:21 i2pRelay has joined
3283 2013-04-12 17:17:54 <diki> I will try to build QT from source, and then try that.
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3331 2013-04-12 17:42:35 <Kyanayk> .r
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3337 2013-04-12 17:43:35 <paulo_> .r
3338 2013-04-12 17:44:10 EretzIsrael has left ()
3339 2013-04-12 17:44:29 <Kyanayk> .d
3340 2013-04-12 17:44:44 <Kyanayk> bot must be on break
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3401 2013-04-12 18:19:21 <MC1984> is it normal to see a node doing getblocks going round in circles from 200k ish blocks up to the latest?
3402 2013-04-12 18:19:46 <MC1984> over nd over again
3403 2013-04-12 18:20:11 Plinker has joined
3404 2013-04-12 18:21:03 <Plinker> What is bitcoin please?
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3406 2013-04-12 18:21:14 <diki> hahaha
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3410 2013-04-12 18:22:04 <diki> To have found this channel, you must have read about bitcoin.
3411 2013-04-12 18:22:31 <Plinker> Actually I heard the channel mentioned and thats it!
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3413 2013-04-12 18:23:15 <diki> http://bitcoin.org
3414 2013-04-12 18:23:26 <Plinker> So I asked the general question "What is bitcoin"
3415 2013-04-12 18:23:27 <gonffen> Plinker: bitcoin is like, the future man
3416 2013-04-12 18:23:37 <diki> Though I feel sad that you just now discover it.
3417 2013-04-12 18:23:46 <MC1984> what is bitcoin
3418 2013-04-12 18:23:48 jtimon has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
3419 2013-04-12 18:23:49 <gonffen> the simple answer is, bitcoin is a crypocurrency
3420 2013-04-12 18:23:55 <MC1984> baby dont debt me dont debt me no more
3421 2013-04-12 18:23:59 <gonffen> cryptocurrency*
3422 2013-04-12 18:24:14 <Plinker> Interesting
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3424 2013-04-12 18:24:31 <MC1984> bitcoin is electronic cash
3425 2013-04-12 18:24:40 <MC1984> simple as that
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3429 2013-04-12 18:25:11 <Plinker> So each bitcoin has an ascribed value?
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3432 2013-04-12 18:25:31 <MC1984> ascribed only by the market
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3437 2013-04-12 18:25:54 <TD> nobody can be told what bitcoin is
3438 2013-04-12 18:26:06 <TD> you have to see it for yourself
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3440 2013-04-12 18:26:14 <Plinker> OK so it works like paypal
3441 2013-04-12 18:26:25 <MC1984> lol no
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3445 2013-04-12 18:27:06 <TD> now you're feeling a bit like alice. tumbling down the rabbit hole, mm?
3446 2013-04-12 18:27:12 <grazs> it's like gold where everyone associates it with certain value but its just shiny, except almost nobody actually does that
3447 2013-04-12 18:27:22 <TD> Plinker, you have the look of a man who accepts what he hears, because he is expecting to wake up :)
3448 2013-04-12 18:27:24 <Plinker> Nope felt that way before!
3449 2013-04-12 18:27:45 <TD> let me tell you why you're here. you're hear because you know something.
3450 2013-04-12 18:27:47 <MC1984> paypal is a payment processor for dollars and is centralised and corcercible as hell, in fact downright neopotistic
3451 2013-04-12 18:27:48 <TD> what you know you can't explain
3452 2013-04-12 18:27:56 <MC1984> bitcoin is none of those things
3453 2013-04-12 18:27:58 <TD> but you feel it. you've felt it your entire life. that there's something wrong with the world
3454 2013-04-12 18:28:09 <TD> you don't know what it is but it's there. it is this feeling, that has brought you to us
3455 2013-04-12 18:28:15 <TD> do you know what i'm talking about, Plinker ?
3456 2013-04-12 18:28:23 resistor_ has joined
3457 2013-04-12 18:28:32 <Plinker> Elaborate please!
3458 2013-04-12 18:28:39 <grazs> TD: are you quoting some movie?
3459 2013-04-12 18:28:42 <TD> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Owd1p0acSOI
3460 2013-04-12 18:28:44 <MC1984> someones getting a redpillin ITT
3461 2013-04-12 18:28:48 <TD> haha
3462 2013-04-12 18:28:53 <grazs> OH
3463 2013-04-12 18:28:57 <grazs> that one
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3467 2013-04-12 18:29:13 <TD> Plinker. Do you want to know ⦠what ⦠it â¦. is
3468 2013-04-12 18:29:15 <grazs> is that a thing now? like bel airing people or rick rolling them?
3469 2013-04-12 18:29:22 <TD> no. i just love that scene.
3470 2013-04-12 18:29:22 <Plinker> Sorry TD this box cannot youtube
3471 2013-04-12 18:29:32 <TD> ahhh, never mind then. i'm quoting the matrix
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3474 2013-04-12 18:29:48 <MC1984> tak the paypal, you go back to your comfortable life
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3477 2013-04-12 18:29:58 <MC1984> take the bitcoin, and we show you how deep this blockchain goes
3478 2013-04-12 18:30:01 <Plinker> ok elaborate a bit more TD
3479 2013-04-12 18:30:32 <TD> heh
3480 2013-04-12 18:30:50 <grazs> Plinker: https://www.weusecoins.com/en/ that video is quite good if you haven't seen it
3481 2013-04-12 18:30:58 <TD> bitcoin is everywhere. it is all around us. even now, in this very room.
3482 2013-04-12 18:31:11 <TD> you can see it when you turn on your television. you can feel it when you go to work, when you go to church.
3483 2013-04-12 18:31:14 <TD> when you don't pay your taxes
3484 2013-04-12 18:31:37 <Plinker> Continue
3485 2013-04-12 18:31:39 <HM2> lol
3486 2013-04-12 18:31:41 <MC1984> waiting or gregs agents to turn up and kill us
3487 2013-04-12 18:32:06 <TD> it is the financial system that is pulling the wool from your eyes, to show you the truth â¦.. that you are a slave, Plinker
3488 2013-04-12 18:32:21 <TD> like everyone else you were born into bondage. born into a financial prison you cannot smell or taste or touch
3489 2013-04-12 18:32:23 sebicas has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3490 2013-04-12 18:32:28 <diki> Plinker:In easy words, bitcoin wants to replace fiat.
3491 2013-04-12 18:32:31 <TD> a prison â¦.. for your wallet
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3494 2013-04-12 18:32:52 <Plinker> Fiat like a car?
3495 2013-04-12 18:33:06 <diki> more like government issued currency
3496 2013-04-12 18:33:37 <diki> However in the early days of bitcoin I also made a reference to the car maker Fiat as a joke.
3497 2013-04-12 18:33:57 <Plinker> What would bitcoin replace it with TD?
3498 2013-04-12 18:34:35 <TD> remember. all we're offering is the truth Plinker. Nothing more.
3499 2013-04-12 18:34:44 * TD reached the end of the scene
3500 2013-04-12 18:34:52 <Plinker> Many are offering there truth!
3501 2013-04-12 18:34:54 <TD> Plinker: more helpfully, have you looked at bitcoin.org
3502 2013-04-12 18:35:08 <Plinker> Nope!
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3505 2013-04-12 18:35:37 <MC1984> of course the Matrix film was always just the Elite meta-trolling the sheeple about their predicament
3506 2013-04-12 18:35:43 <MC1984> obv
3507 2013-04-12 18:35:48 <MaxValor> not really
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3509 2013-04-12 18:35:55 <TD> Plinker: then that's the right place to start
3510 2013-04-12 18:36:12 <Plinker> OK
3511 2013-04-12 18:36:18 <MaxValor> Blue-pill suffers from misplaced trust of lying people, Red-pill suffers from excessive trust of lying evidence
3512 2013-04-12 18:36:21 <Plinker> Thank you!
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3514 2013-04-12 18:36:31 <MaxValor> Yellow pill folks are the ones who recognize this paradigm
3515 2013-04-12 18:36:54 <MaxValor> and wish they could really see the "matrix" and other high levels of control for what they are
3516 2013-04-12 18:36:56 <MC1984> i took a yellow pill once
3517 2013-04-12 18:36:59 <MC1984> shit was goooood
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3519 2013-04-12 18:37:20 <MaxValor> aren't yellow pills like some kind of high opiate
3520 2013-04-12 18:37:20 <helo> http://www.businessinsider.com/dan-kaminsky-highlights-flaws-bitcoin-2013-4
3521 2013-04-12 18:37:20 <HM2> handy, base64 encoding a compressed public key is exactly 44 chars
3522 2013-04-12 18:37:23 <sipa> TD: did you do that by heart? :D
3523 2013-04-12 18:37:34 <MC1984> benzos
3524 2013-04-12 18:37:41 i2pRelay has joined
3525 2013-04-12 18:37:42 <MaxValor> ah frontal lobe drugs
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3528 2013-04-12 18:38:16 <Plinker> May I suggest the So bitcoin is about drugs?
3529 2013-04-12 18:38:34 <MC1984> only as much as dollars are
3530 2013-04-12 18:38:35 <helo> "But all that was obvious two years ago, when my fifteen point list of obvious likely bugs was systematically destroyed by a codebase that quite frankly knew better." ftw
3531 2013-04-12 18:38:40 <MC1984> much much less in fact
3532 2013-04-12 18:38:59 <sipa> Plinker: it is about beijg in control of your own money
3533 2013-04-12 18:39:21 <sipa> Plinker: about not needing to trust
3534 2013-04-12 18:39:24 <Plinker> Thanks sipa it sounded like drugs for a moment
3535 2013-04-12 18:39:28 <MC1984> and to my knowledge bitcoin has never funded some genocide so thats -1 for dollar
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3537 2013-04-12 18:39:47 <sydna> ಠ_à²
3538 2013-04-12 18:40:07 <Plinker> So bitcoin is like an online bank?
3539 2013-04-12 18:40:20 <MC1984> bitcoin is electronic cash
3540 2013-04-12 18:40:23 <oiram> It's like an online lottery game
3541 2013-04-12 18:40:31 <sipa> except there is no bank
3542 2013-04-12 18:40:34 <Plinker> Gambling, ok
3543 2013-04-12 18:40:37 <MC1984> if you think about that statement, allt he answers to your questions should flow from it
3544 2013-04-12 18:40:39 <sipa> oiram: please, no
3545 2013-04-12 18:40:42 <oiram> ...and there is no spoon
3546 2013-04-12 18:40:46 orbliviator has joined
3547 2013-04-12 18:40:46 <oiram> ok ok
3548 2013-04-12 18:40:47 <sipa> oiram: bitcoin is not mining
3549 2013-04-12 18:41:00 <Plinker> Like playing the slots?
3550 2013-04-12 18:41:06 D34TH has joined
3551 2013-04-12 18:41:07 <sipa> Plinker: everyone and nobody is the bank
3552 2013-04-12 18:41:12 <sipa> use it
3553 2013-04-12 18:41:17 <sipa> and you'll understand
3554 2013-04-12 18:41:19 <MC1984> Plinker are you a journo?
3555 2013-04-12 18:41:33 <Plinker> journo?
3556 2013-04-12 18:41:37 <gonffen> journalist
3557 2013-04-12 18:41:45 <Plinker> Why?
3558 2013-04-12 18:41:53 <sydna> you sound like one
3559 2013-04-12 18:41:54 <gonffen> Plinker: you should go watch Green Stree Hooligans
3560 2013-04-12 18:41:59 <MC1984> just wondering
3561 2013-04-12 18:42:11 <oiram> There is a globally shared ledger on everyone running the Bitcoin program, so essentially everyone is the bank. The Ledger is known as the "block chain".
3562 2013-04-12 18:42:25 n1bor has joined
3563 2013-04-12 18:42:52 <Plinker> Ok and where does gambling come in?
3564 2013-04-12 18:43:06 <sydna> people gamble with money.
3565 2013-04-12 18:43:10 <sydna> bitcoin is money.
3566 2013-04-12 18:43:25 orblivion has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3567 2013-04-12 18:43:28 <Plinker> Like an online casino?
3568 2013-04-12 18:43:37 <sydna> sure.
3569 2013-04-12 18:43:40 <sipa> bitcoin is just an online currency
3570 2013-04-12 18:43:40 <gonffen> yes bitcoin can be used in online casinos
3571 2013-04-12 18:43:49 <Plinker> Who is the house then?
3572 2013-04-12 18:43:54 <sipa> you can use it for whatever you use currency for
3573 2013-04-12 18:43:58 <gonffen> Plinker: the online casino
3574 2013-04-12 18:43:59 <sydna> whoever wants to make an online casino.
3575 2013-04-12 18:44:18 <sipa> bitcoin is not gambling
3576 2013-04-12 18:44:24 <median^> is there a chart that displays difficulty and height?
3577 2013-04-12 18:44:25 <sipa> but yes it can be used for it
3578 2013-04-12 18:44:27 <gonffen> is this conversation really happening in #bitcoin-dev ?
3579 2013-04-12 18:44:40 <sipa> median^: http://bitcoin.sipa.be
3580 2013-04-12 18:44:50 <sipa> yes, please take it to #bitcoin
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3583 2013-04-12 18:45:13 <Plinker> I thought I was on bitcoin sipa
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3587 2013-04-12 18:45:54 <median^> isn't the height calculated like difficulty?
3588 2013-04-12 18:46:02 <Plinker> Is there more than one bitcoin sipa?
3589 2013-04-12 18:46:29 kadoban has joined
3590 2013-04-12 18:46:49 <median^> Plinker: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Cryptocoin
3591 2013-04-12 18:46:55 <sipa> Plinker: is there more than one dollar?
3592 2013-04-12 18:47:01 <sipa> i hope you have several
3593 2013-04-12 18:47:12 * saracen wonders if Plinker meant more than one bitcoin channel.
3594 2013-04-12 18:47:21 <Plinker> So there are many bitcoins?
3595 2013-04-12 18:47:31 <sydna> 11M of them.
3596 2013-04-12 18:47:36 <sydna> or at least, there will be.
3597 2013-04-12 18:47:40 <sipa> Plinker: they are not for free, you need to buy them
3598 2013-04-12 18:47:42 <ltrottier> So if you're willing to give up a little bit of anonymity, I think instant confirmation is definitely doable in practice
3599 2013-04-12 18:47:44 <Plinker> Actually I did saracen
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3601 2013-04-12 18:47:51 <sipa> Plinker: a currency that was free would ve pointless
3602 2013-04-12 18:48:16 <saracen> Plinker: Then yes, this IRC network has many bitcoin channels. #bitcoin is most suitable for your questions. This is #bitcoin-dev
3603 2013-04-12 18:48:37 <gonffen> Plinker: this channel is for discussing development of bitcoin. General discussion should be in #bitcoin. There are other non-generic channels like #bitcoin-market and #bitcoin-otc.
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3605 2013-04-12 18:48:53 <Plinker> ok thanks, so this is where the geeks hang out?
3606 2013-04-12 18:48:59 <sipa> yes!
3607 2013-04-12 18:49:00 <ltrottier> in person: have transaction-associated publicly signed hashes of an image of the user
3608 2013-04-12 18:49:51 <ltrottier> ⦠the user presents the image and a QR code do get instant confirmation
3609 2013-04-12 18:50:01 hsmithsN7_ has joined
3610 2013-04-12 18:50:05 <TD> this whole conversation is awesome
3611 2013-04-12 18:50:08 <Plinker> sipa!! thanks, been around computers for a few years!! lol
3612 2013-04-12 18:50:15 <sipa> ha
3613 2013-04-12 18:50:19 <gonffen> Plinker: lol I'm pretty sure everybody involved in bitconi is a geek.
3614 2013-04-12 18:50:20 stainrat has left ("Leaving...")
3615 2013-04-12 18:50:31 <ltrottier> (the image hash, signature, etc. has to be recorded in the block chain)
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3617 2013-04-12 18:50:44 <Plinker> It was intended to be funny!!
3618 2013-04-12 18:50:51 <sipa> lrif you trust the sender, you don',5 need confirmations whatsoever
3619 2013-04-12 18:50:59 <sipa> *if
3620 2013-04-12 18:51:08 <ltrottier> sipa: this is a way of creating partial trust
3621 2013-04-12 18:51:11 <ltrottier> exactly
3622 2013-04-12 18:51:35 <MC1984> intersting idea?
3623 2013-04-12 18:51:36 <ltrottier> the other approach is basically transaction insurance
3624 2013-04-12 18:51:50 andyh2 has joined
3625 2013-04-12 18:52:05 <ltrottier> a trusted third party says they'll make anyone whole who suffers a double-spend from a particular address
3626 2013-04-12 18:52:54 <ltrottier> ⦠this trusted third party might demand collateral or identity verification
3627 2013-04-12 18:53:10 <ltrottier> ⦠and then only insure up to a particular amount
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3630 2013-04-12 18:53:35 <Plinker> ltrottier that leads back to currency as we have
3631 2013-04-12 18:53:38 <k9quaint> ltrottier: like sending a paperwallet via UPS ;)
3632 2013-04-12 18:53:44 i2pRelay has joined
3633 2013-04-12 18:53:53 <ltrottier> Plinker: what do you mean?
3634 2013-04-12 18:54:08 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3635 2013-04-12 18:54:18 <ltrottier> this can be *any* insurer
3636 2013-04-12 18:54:23 <Plinker> Any paper signed that the amount is guaranteed is in effect money
3637 2013-04-12 18:54:36 <Plinker> Therin noted
3638 2013-04-12 18:54:48 <Plinker> Not legal but money
3639 2013-04-12 18:55:25 <ltrottier> Plinker: I suppose it's rather like the bank notes of old times
3640 2013-04-12 18:55:25 n1c has quit (Quit: rad!)
3641 2013-04-12 18:55:34 <Plinker> Script
3642 2013-04-12 18:55:41 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
3643 2013-04-12 18:55:51 <ltrottier> right -- but it still solves the double-spend problem
3644 2013-04-12 18:55:58 <ltrottier> and works within the existing bitcoin system
3645 2013-04-12 18:56:12 <Plinker> ltrottier Bank of Scotland did all British banking early on
3646 2013-04-12 18:56:34 <Plinker> No matter what you call it!
3647 2013-04-12 18:57:10 <Plinker> However it still has to tie into world currencies
3648 2013-04-12 18:57:12 <ltrottier> the first image-based approach still works for in person transactions
3649 2013-04-12 18:57:16 stretchwarren has joined
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3651 2013-04-12 18:58:04 <Plinker> If the purpose is a cyber currency thats sort of the same as a bank card
3652 2013-04-12 18:58:35 <sipa> can you take this to #bitcoin?
3653 2013-04-12 18:58:41 <Plinker> If the purpose is trading that same alternate currency then its a bit different
3654 2013-04-12 18:59:11 <ltrottier> sips ok -- though people there aren't that smart :/
3655 2013-04-12 18:59:20 <Plinker> lol
3656 2013-04-12 18:59:21 Ashaman has joined
3657 2013-04-12 18:59:23 <ltrottier> or they're less smart
3658 2013-04-12 18:59:26 <ltrottier> than people here
3659 2013-04-12 18:59:34 Ashaman has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3660 2013-04-12 18:59:39 <ltrottier> *sipa
3661 2013-04-12 19:00:19 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3662 2013-04-12 19:00:20 <Plinker> What server is bitcoin on sipa?
3663 2013-04-12 19:00:33 <sipa> Plinker: all of them
3664 2013-04-12 19:00:40 <Plinker> ?
3665 2013-04-12 19:00:46 <sipa> Plinker: it's decentralized
3666 2013-04-12 19:00:47 <TD> Plinker: please type /join #bitcoin in your chat client
3667 2013-04-12 19:00:54 <TD> Plinker: that is a general chat room much better suited to these questions
3668 2013-04-12 19:00:57 <saracen> Plinker: It's on freenode, the one you're currently on.
3669 2013-04-12 19:01:07 <TD> Plinker: and look at the website. you're asking questions that are all answered there
3670 2013-04-12 19:01:08 <Plinker> Ah!
3671 2013-04-12 19:01:15 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3672 2013-04-12 19:01:45 <Plinker> True but I like interacting with humans, ok thanks
3673 2013-04-12 19:01:46 i2pRelay has joined
3674 2013-04-12 19:01:57 <TD> sure, that's ok
3675 2013-04-12 19:02:08 <TD> but you can read the basics and then come back with more complex questions later
3676 2013-04-12 19:02:28 <Plinker> True!
3677 2013-04-12 19:02:53 BGL has joined
3678 2013-04-12 19:02:55 <Plinker> I was joshing you guys a bit and you where all nice!
3679 2013-04-12 19:03:27 <TD> yep, we're all nice people. that's why you can trust bitcoin! ;)
3680 2013-04-12 19:04:11 mercerist has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
3681 2013-04-12 19:06:26 <saivann> In TD we trust.. No wait, in math we trust
3682 2013-04-12 19:06:38 <TD> :)
3683 2013-04-12 19:06:47 <TD> TD looks a bit like a mathematical equation doesn't it
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3685 2013-04-12 19:07:33 mercerist has joined
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3687 2013-04-12 19:08:00 <gonffen> TD looks like TD Ameritrade :X
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3689 2013-04-12 19:08:16 ColinT has joined
3690 2013-04-12 19:08:38 <median^> sipa: is it possible to get the raw data that you use on the graphs on your site?
3691 2013-04-12 19:08:51 mappum has joined
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3696 2013-04-12 19:10:49 <sipa> median^: what in particular?
3697 2013-04-12 19:10:51 lva has joined
3698 2013-04-12 19:11:09 <median^> i need a bigger graph :)
3699 2013-04-12 19:11:29 X-Factor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3700 2013-04-12 19:11:33 <sipa> change the 'small' in the url to large
3701 2013-04-12 19:11:37 liva has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3702 2013-04-12 19:12:18 <median^> in particular the exponential axis could have a higher ceiling
3703 2013-04-12 19:12:37 <median^> i don't see any 'small' in the urls
3704 2013-04-12 19:12:45 <sipa> the image url
3705 2013-04-12 19:12:53 <median^> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-ever.png
3706 2013-04-12 19:13:03 ColinT has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
3707 2013-04-12 19:13:06 <sipa> make it speed-large-ever
3708 2013-04-12 19:13:09 Ad0 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3709 2013-04-12 19:13:42 <median^> can i enable grids?
3710 2013-04-12 19:14:23 <median^> thanks for the larger image but i would like a higher ceiling to make better predictions
3711 2013-04-12 19:14:57 Ad0 has joined
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3717 2013-04-12 19:19:15 <diki> It's funny how you need fart to build qt.
3718 2013-04-12 19:19:19 yury has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3719 2013-04-12 19:19:49 <diki> As I was creating the folder fart I constantly felt like they were trolling us.
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3726 2013-04-12 19:22:21 <Ad0> I wonder where I can read about how to handle payments for a service
3727 2013-04-12 19:22:37 <Ad0> I guess every user get their own address that they can pay t
3728 2013-04-12 19:22:52 paybitcoin has joined
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3730 2013-04-12 19:23:48 <Kyanayk> bitcoin.org?
3731 2013-04-12 19:23:51 <median^> Ad0: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade#Bitcoin_payment_systems and yes a new address is generated for each transaction
3732 2013-04-12 19:23:53 jtimon has joined
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3735 2013-04-12 19:25:55 i2pRelay has joined
3736 2013-04-12 19:25:58 <Ad0> are all those wallets kept? or are they transferred from and deleted?
3737 2013-04-12 19:26:32 mappum has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3738 2013-04-12 19:26:34 <sydna> depends on the service
3739 2013-04-12 19:26:43 <Ad0> ok
3740 2013-04-12 19:26:59 guruvan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3741 2013-04-12 19:27:18 mappum has joined
3742 2013-04-12 19:28:01 <Ad0> it would make sense to keep them and let the user generate a new address if wished, and just transfer the btc to a central address
3743 2013-04-12 19:28:19 guruvan has joined
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3745 2013-04-12 19:28:50 <sydna> no harm in keeping the amounts separate really.
3746 2013-04-12 19:29:11 [NS] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3747 2013-04-12 19:29:38 <Ad0> the private keys have to be stored in the DB :P
3748 2013-04-12 19:29:48 <Ad0> for the addresses
3749 2013-04-12 19:29:53 <skinnkavaj> http://www.businessinsider.com/dan-kaminsky-highlights-flaws-bitcoin-2013-4
3750 2013-04-12 19:29:54 <skinnkavaj> I Tried Hacking Bitcoin And I Failed
3751 2013-04-12 19:29:56 <skinnkavaj> By
3752 2013-04-12 19:30:04 <skinnkavaj> Dan Kaminsky
3753 2013-04-12 19:30:13 ColinT has joined
3754 2013-04-12 19:31:01 <Ad0> hehe
3755 2013-04-12 19:31:36 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
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3777 2013-04-12 19:45:21 <ProfMac> My irc connection drops a couple of times a day. Does that happen to anyone else?
3778 2013-04-12 19:45:40 <skinnkavaj> gavinandresen: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1c7v6z/buttercoin_open_source_highperformance_bitcoin/ <- have you seen this yet?
3779 2013-04-12 19:45:48 <sydna> more likely your problem than freenodes
3780 2013-04-12 19:46:04 Phoebus has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3781 2013-04-12 19:46:10 <lianj> ProfMac: use a real client and have a stable network connection
3782 2013-04-12 19:46:53 impulse has joined
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3788 2013-04-12 19:48:24 <gavinandresen> skinnkavaj: cool. I hope they're wildly successful, but I think most of the issues running an exchange are regulatory, personell, customer support, banking relationships, etc etc etc ⦠and not how fast is my trading engine.
3789 2013-04-12 19:48:48 dbe has joined
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3791 2013-04-12 19:48:57 <sydna> most of the people in this channel could write a trading engine
3792 2013-04-12 19:48:59 jtimon_ has joined
3793 2013-04-12 19:49:02 <sydna> it's managing the money that is the issue
3794 2013-04-12 19:49:07 <Diablo-D3> http://data.cnbc.com/quotes/MTGOXUSD
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3797 2013-04-12 19:49:29 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: holy shit
3798 2013-04-12 19:49:31 <daveluke> i'm trying to map relevance in social media to bitcoin value.. think that's worth trying?
3799 2013-04-12 19:49:47 <digitalmagus> Nice find Diablo!
3800 2013-04-12 19:49:50 <warren> Diablo-D3: their Price/Earnings ratio is the only thing accurate on that page.
3801 2013-04-12 19:50:08 <lianj> digitalmagus: its on the reddit/bitcoin frontpage
3802 2013-04-12 19:50:10 <Ad0> Diablo-D3: it's behind
3803 2013-04-12 19:50:16 <skinnkavaj> daveluke: Why not? I would like to see it
3804 2013-04-12 19:50:17 <Diablo-D3> I actually grabbed it off of HN
3805 2013-04-12 19:50:19 <digitalmagus> ah I see, I hadn't read reddit today yet
3806 2013-04-12 19:50:23 mercerist has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
3807 2013-04-12 19:50:25 <digitalmagus> HN = ?
3808 2013-04-12 19:50:27 <HM2> "(MTGOXUSD :)"
3809 2013-04-12 19:50:30 <HM2> HN = Hacker news
3810 2013-04-12 19:50:32 <sydna> Hacker News
3811 2013-04-12 19:50:33 <digitalmagus> yeah love the smily
3812 2013-04-12 19:50:38 <digitalmagus> Ycominator Hacker news ?
3813 2013-04-12 19:50:41 <sydna> yes.
3814 2013-04-12 19:50:42 <digitalmagus> combinator
3815 2013-04-12 19:50:42 <HM2> yup
3816 2013-04-12 19:50:46 <digitalmagus> :)
3817 2013-04-12 19:50:47 Darin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
3818 2013-04-12 19:50:50 <daveluke> skinnkavaj :) my cron jobs have been running for only an hour.. i hope after a couple days it'll show something
3819 2013-04-12 19:51:03 <sydna> damn greek gods.
3820 2013-04-12 19:51:11 <skinnkavaj> daveluke: Post it here and highlight me
3821 2013-04-12 19:51:26 <daveluke> will do
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3828 2013-04-12 19:57:46 <HM2> gavinandresen: i've seen exchanges in other markets. sports betting especially
3829 2013-04-12 19:57:56 <HM2> gavinandresen: the problem is *always* attracting liquidity
3830 2013-04-12 19:58:05 <HM2> especially when there's an established player
3831 2013-04-12 19:58:09 hsmithsN7_ has joined
3832 2013-04-12 19:58:20 <gavinandresen> sure⦠network effects are strong....
3833 2013-04-12 19:59:03 <HM2> the guys at smarkets.com (sports betting exchange) basically had to offer 1% fees and 0 deposit and withdrawal fees to attract attention, the market leader (betfair) is 5%.
3834 2013-04-12 19:59:30 <gavinandresen> I'd bet on some second-or-third-tier Forex trading house that's been around for 20 years jumping in⦠but that's pure speculation I know nothing about that business
3835 2013-04-12 19:59:33 <HM2> and i get the impression people want bitcoin exchange to be practically margin free :d
3836 2013-04-12 20:00:41 <HM2> mtgox trade fees are already tiny
3837 2013-04-12 20:00:54 <HM2> much closer to forex levels
3838 2013-04-12 20:05:11 <HM2> wow that article from Dan Kaminsky is very flattering for you devs
3839 2013-04-12 20:05:42 <sipa> at the time he did that study, the code was mostly satoshi's still :)
3840 2013-04-12 20:05:49 <sipa> well, it still is i guess
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3844 2013-04-12 20:06:41 <HM2> sipa: yeah but i think he's revisited it since
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3848 2013-04-12 20:07:42 <n5> why its taking so long to fill keypool with a few k address?
3849 2013-04-12 20:07:54 Darin has joined
3850 2013-04-12 20:08:17 <HM2> sipa: someone needs to slap him for writing "BitCoin"
3851 2013-04-12 20:08:23 <HM2> I can't stand reading it like that
3852 2013-04-12 20:08:32 <sipa> HM2: I am not going to slap Dan Kaminsky.
3853 2013-04-12 20:08:43 <wumpus> HM2: WhatsYourProblemWithCamelCase?
3854 2013-04-12 20:08:50 gepatino has joined
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3856 2013-04-12 20:08:56 <sipa> HM2: though it bothered me as well :)
3857 2013-04-12 20:09:13 dhrosa has joined
3858 2013-04-12 20:09:21 <helo> n5: every time you add a key it rescans the blockchain
3859 2013-04-12 20:09:21 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3860 2013-04-12 20:09:21 <sipa> ha! http://i.imgur.com/oWkHvar.gif
3861 2013-04-12 20:09:30 <sipa> helo: it doesn't
3862 2013-04-12 20:09:49 <sipa> BDB syncing is just terrible, and it syncs after every key generation
3863 2013-04-12 20:09:53 <dhrosa> Hello, does anyone know if there's an existing desktop/local blockchain explorer program? I wanted to write my own to learn about the protocol
3864 2013-04-12 20:09:55 cybermoron has joined
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3866 2013-04-12 20:10:49 <sipa> dhrosa: there is one that just uses whatever bitcoind itself maintains (which means no per-address view or lookup): https://github.com/realazthat/overblock
3867 2013-04-12 20:11:19 <sipa> dhrosa: otherwise there is a more complete one called abe, which maintains a full (and quite expensive) database of pretty much everything in the blockchain
3868 2013-04-12 20:11:31 <helo> sipa: importprivkey <bitcoinprivkey> [label] [rescan=true]... doesn't that mean it rescans by default?
3869 2013-04-12 20:11:40 cads has joined
3870 2013-04-12 20:11:40 <sipa> helo: yes, but that's not what he's talking about
3871 2013-04-12 20:11:44 <helo> oh.
3872 2013-04-12 20:12:14 <HM2> sipa: with your level of cryptowizardry, i think you could give him a slap and live ;) I do like Dan though, he's tremendously good when he gives talks, especially
3873 2013-04-12 20:13:30 <dhrosa> sipa: thanks
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3875 2013-04-12 20:14:01 <sipa> HM2: heh
3876 2013-04-12 20:14:12 <sipa> HM2: i just use some algorithms i find on wikipedia :p
3877 2013-04-12 20:14:28 <sipa> (and fix them when they seem wrong)
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3899 2013-04-12 20:24:21 <sedeki> why does bitcoin use printf?
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3901 2013-04-12 20:25:00 <HM> because printf is awesome
3902 2013-04-12 20:25:18 oiram has joined
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3905 2013-04-12 20:27:02 <HM2> this is kind of crazy
3906 2013-04-12 20:27:04 <wumpus> sedeki: because it has always done so; the macro redefining printf is ugly, but no one thinks it's worth changing it everywhere in the code for
3907 2013-04-12 20:27:26 <HM2> I found an email from 2008 in my archive telling me I own several freenode nicks, i must have not identified for so long they expired
3908 2013-04-12 20:27:54 lodse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3909 2013-04-12 20:28:16 B0g4r7 has joined
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3911 2013-04-12 20:28:24 <HM2> Boost.Format is a nice alternative
3912 2013-04-12 20:28:30 <HM2> Can't remember if it's headers only or not
3913 2013-04-12 20:30:18 vinny has joined
3914 2013-04-12 20:30:28 <n5> why you have to unloack wallet to refill keypoll, why it cant just insert keys?
3915 2013-04-12 20:30:34 cybermoron has joined
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3918 2013-04-12 20:31:34 <wumpus> HM2: I don't think it's worth switching, it's only used for debugging anyway
3919 2013-04-12 20:31:44 nivs has joined
3920 2013-04-12 20:31:46 <wumpus> n5: because it needs the encryption key to encrypt the newly generated keys
3921 2013-04-12 20:32:19 <sipa> because you don't want to give out a key to a user before making sure it's safely stored
3922 2013-04-12 20:32:26 <sipa> and you don't want it stored without being encrypted
3923 2013-04-12 20:32:34 <sipa> s/key/address/
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3925 2013-04-12 20:33:43 shurnormal has joined
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3932 2013-04-12 20:39:33 <ltrottier> so, seriously, it would be great to have biometrical (or photographically) signed transaction addresses, with the signatures publicly visible in the block chain
3933 2013-04-12 20:39:38 PhantomSpark has joined
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3935 2013-04-12 20:40:21 <HM2> ltrottier: ever seen Demolition Man?
3936 2013-04-12 20:40:28 <ltrottier> nope
3937 2013-04-12 20:40:53 qeb has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3938 2013-04-12 20:40:54 <HM2> You might like the biometric hack in that film
3939 2013-04-12 20:40:57 <ltrottier> these addresses would, in combination with with the right picture, probably allow enough trust for instant transactions
3940 2013-04-12 20:41:05 <ltrottier> (in person)
3941 2013-04-12 20:41:06 Namworld-AFK is now known as Namworld
3942 2013-04-12 20:41:16 brson has quit (Client Quit)
3943 2013-04-12 20:41:25 <pigeons> how do you change your biometric key?
3944 2013-04-12 20:41:33 <pigeons> if compromised
3945 2013-04-12 20:41:36 brson has joined
3946 2013-04-12 20:41:44 <ltrottier> pigeons: it would just allow for *instant* transactions
3947 2013-04-12 20:41:57 <ltrottier> you'd still have to do the normal work of signing over BTC
3948 2013-04-12 20:42:08 xenesis has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3949 2013-04-12 20:42:08 xenesis_ is now known as xenesis
3950 2013-04-12 20:42:53 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
3951 2013-04-12 20:42:54 <ltrottier> these would mark an address as "instant"-friendly, so that anyone that receives money from it should also get secondary confirmation
3952 2013-04-12 20:42:59 sedeki has quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"])
3953 2013-04-12 20:43:10 <ltrottier> (or just wait a few blocks)
3954 2013-04-12 20:43:23 <ltrottier> (⦠if they don't get the secondary confirmation)
3955 2013-04-12 20:43:30 PhantomSpark has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3956 2013-04-12 20:43:42 <ltrottier> if you grow a beard, or whatever, you can just create a new address with a new picture
3957 2013-04-12 20:43:54 PhantomSpark has joined
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3960 2013-04-12 20:45:01 <ltrottier> you show the picture, which would probably also contain a QR code, and then by looking in the block chain it would be possible to tell that the person who holds this account also verifies that they look like the person in the picture
3961 2013-04-12 20:45:16 <ali1234> but... how is that useful?
3962 2013-04-12 20:45:20 <ltrottier> yes, the person could go make another transaction 2 minutes later at another vendor
3963 2013-04-12 20:45:22 <HM2> Sounds like Square
3964 2013-04-12 20:45:27 <ali1234> i mean why would i want to trick someone into paying to someone else?
3965 2013-04-12 20:45:32 <HM2> Doesn't the picture of the user come up on the till with Square
3966 2013-04-12 20:45:36 <HM2> or some payment system like it
3967 2013-04-12 20:45:39 <ltrottier> HM2: yes, it does
3968 2013-04-12 20:45:59 mastertheknife has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3969 2013-04-12 20:46:06 <ltrottier> it's kind of square-like, except I was thinking you wouldn't want a picture of yourself flying around on the block chain
3970 2013-04-12 20:46:10 <Diablo-D3> hey gmaxwell
3971 2013-04-12 20:46:12 <Diablo-D3> hey gmaxwell
3972 2013-04-12 20:46:14 <Diablo-D3> guess what I found
3973 2013-04-12 20:46:19 <HM2> you could encode a URL in the blockchain, or hash of one, and then cryptographically verify the jpeg file
3974 2013-04-12 20:46:19 jj0hns0n has joined
3975 2013-04-12 20:46:21 <Diablo-D3> https://github.com/Jeaye/q3
3976 2013-04-12 20:46:23 <Diablo-D3> q3 ported to rust.
3977 2013-04-12 20:46:28 <ltrottier> HM2: yup
3978 2013-04-12 20:46:36 <HM2> then the merchant could download the photo, verify it, and compare to the purchaser
3979 2013-04-12 20:46:37 <ltrottier> that might be simpler
3980 2013-04-12 20:46:40 <ltrottier> right
3981 2013-04-12 20:46:45 <ltrottier> good point
3982 2013-04-12 20:46:51 <ltrottier> even better :)
3983 2013-04-12 20:46:54 mastertheknife has joined
3984 2013-04-12 20:47:01 <HM2> but it's only a 2 factor system
3985 2013-04-12 20:47:10 <HM2> you still need to secure it, since that's based on merchant trust
3986 2013-04-12 20:47:39 <ltrottier> secure it?
3987 2013-04-12 20:48:02 <HM2> sure
3988 2013-04-12 20:48:04 <ltrottier> yes, there's more merchant trust involved, but the idea is that it would be hard to do too many of these two-factor transactions at the same time
3989 2013-04-12 20:48:19 <ltrottier> it wouldn't involve more trust than accepting a credit card or check
3990 2013-04-12 20:48:53 <HM2> what i mean is, you need to go in to the shop with your card/token and they scan it. your face is your proof of ownership right
3991 2013-04-12 20:49:07 <HM2> but once they've scanned your token you still need a 2nd security factor
3992 2013-04-12 20:49:13 <ltrottier> ohh, of course
3993 2013-04-12 20:49:15 <ltrottier> no sorry
3994 2013-04-12 20:49:38 <ltrottier> the point of this is to provide the *merchant* with the ability to accept the transaction instantly
3995 2013-04-12 20:49:45 <ltrottier> it's to defend against Finney attacks
3996 2013-04-12 20:49:56 <ali1234> how does it do that?
3997 2013-04-12 20:50:10 <HM2> it doesn't accomplish that though
3998 2013-04-12 20:50:18 <ltrottier> no?
3999 2013-04-12 20:50:24 <HM2> anyone can press "yes"
4000 2013-04-12 20:50:34 <ltrottier> ?
4001 2013-04-12 20:50:52 <HM2> "Does the dude in your shop look like this: [photo]?" y/n?
4002 2013-04-12 20:51:23 <ltrottier> ali1234: the idea is that transactions from these photo-associated addresses should only be processed if there's a photo involved
4003 2013-04-12 20:51:24 <HM2> if they press yes then they accept your transaction, right?
4004 2013-04-12 20:51:35 LainZ has joined
4005 2013-04-12 20:51:43 <ltrottier> HM2: yes, if they press yes they accept your transaction
4006 2013-04-12 20:51:53 <ltrottier> HM2: you still need to send your transaction to them
4007 2013-04-12 20:51:55 <HM2> what's to stop someone somewhere else processing it, a bad merchant working with the con artist/shopper
4008 2013-04-12 20:51:59 sensorii has joined
4009 2013-04-12 20:52:02 <ali1234> ltrottier: so basically what you;re saying is that merchants should take a picture of every customer, and then share the ones who commit fraud publicly?
4010 2013-04-12 20:52:17 <ltrottier> ali1234: yes, that's one outcome of fraud
4011 2013-04-12 20:52:26 <ali1234> otherwise i can just generate a new photo/throwaway account for every tx
4012 2013-04-12 20:52:34 <ltrottier> ali1234: they could also mark the sending address as bad
4013 2013-04-12 20:52:40 <ali1234> see above ^
4014 2013-04-12 20:53:10 <Goonie_> Does anyone know how the satoshi client deals with incoming dust?
4015 2013-04-12 20:53:21 <ltrottier> ali1234: ⦠true
4016 2013-04-12 20:53:32 gepatino has left ("Saliendo")
4017 2013-04-12 20:53:35 <ali1234> in any case, this does not need to be encoded in bitcoin, it's enough to merely have a global orwellian monitoring database recording everything everywhere
4018 2013-04-12 20:53:57 <ltrottier> ali1234: hahah, the point is that vendors already have your mug
4019 2013-04-12 20:54:04 <ltrottier> ali1234: on their CCTV, etc.
4020 2013-04-12 20:54:23 <ali1234> well quite
4021 2013-04-12 20:54:26 <sipa> Goonie_: elaborate?
4022 2013-04-12 20:54:36 <sipa> ltrottier, ali1234: take it to #bitcoin
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4024 2013-04-12 20:54:45 <HM2> yeah the only privacy implication is being able to link a photo to an address, which they can do already once you're in there shop using your wallet
4025 2013-04-12 20:55:04 <Goonie_> sipa: I see so many users getting incoming tx with hundreds of outputs of 0.00000004 BTC for example.
4026 2013-04-12 20:55:13 <ltrottier> HM2: right
4027 2013-04-12 20:55:21 <HM2> but i'm not seeing what attack it prevents
4028 2013-04-12 20:55:27 <Goonie_> These outputs clog the memory and cannot be spent because of the fees which are much higher
4029 2013-04-12 20:55:35 <sipa> Goonie_: indeed
4030 2013-04-12 20:55:48 <ltrottier> sipa: the only reason I'm talking about this here is because it might have dev implications ⦠and the people at #bitcoin aren't that sophisticated, generally
4031 2013-04-12 20:55:56 <Goonie_> and its really a problem because such transactions eat half a meg.
4032 2013-04-12 20:56:07 erle- has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
4033 2013-04-12 20:56:10 <Goonie_> (in java objects)
4034 2013-04-12 20:56:25 <sipa> Goonie_: they can be spent (and the satoshi client tries to, not very intelligently), but they easily make the transaction to spend them large
4035 2013-04-12 20:56:33 <HM2> ltrottier: it's safer for wallet holders, if merchants police it effectively, but not for merchants
4036 2013-04-12 20:56:44 <sipa> Goonie_: meaning they net require more in fees than what they gain you as input
4037 2013-04-12 20:57:11 <Goonie_> sipa: so it would be more economical to just throw them away.
4038 2013-04-12 20:57:32 <HM2> ltrottier: it's a bit like the "verified by visa" stuff, prevents people using my card at places that do it, but they can still use my private key (if they have it) at merchants that don't do photo verification
4039 2013-04-12 20:57:33 <sipa> Goonie_: i'd say we need to fix the priority rules so they become more economical to spend
4040 2013-04-12 20:57:50 <sipa> Goonie_: and make creating dust so tiny that it still isn't, non-standard
4041 2013-04-12 20:58:07 wirehead has joined
4042 2013-04-12 20:58:10 <ltrottier> HM2: the idea is that the address in question can't easily be used in multiple locations at the same time
4043 2013-04-12 20:58:15 CaptainBlaze has joined
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4045 2013-04-12 20:58:37 <ltrottier> HM2: the address might even be marked as higher priority in transactions
4046 2013-04-12 20:58:44 <HM2> ltrottier: i'm not sure how it accomplishes that?
4047 2013-04-12 20:58:54 OneMiner has joined
4048 2013-04-12 20:59:02 <Goonie_> sipa: making creating dust hard, spending dust easy. is that what you say?
4049 2013-04-12 20:59:09 desidero has joined
4050 2013-04-12 20:59:14 <sipa> Goonie_: right :)
4051 2013-04-12 20:59:15 <ltrottier> HM2: the nature of the address makes accepting merchants want to see a photo
4052 2013-04-12 20:59:29 <HM2> ltrottier: what about dishonest merchants?
4053 2013-04-12 20:59:39 <Goonie_> sipa: sounds like a good plan, but it probably is months away, isn't it?
4054 2013-04-12 20:59:53 <HM2> ltrottier: nothing actually prevents anyone from ignoring the photo verification
4055 2013-04-12 20:59:56 <sipa> Goonie_: but the reason is that dust weighs heavily on the UTXO set (which must be in fast storage for every full node forever), while the blockchain size is just dead raw sequentially-accessed storage
4056 2013-04-12 21:00:13 <ltrottier> HM2: I suppose one assumption is that merchants have zero anonymity
4057 2013-04-12 21:00:14 emryss has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4058 2013-04-12 21:00:24 <sipa> Goonie_: so the priority rules should take that into account somehow (but to what extent, ...)
4059 2013-04-12 21:00:33 shesek has joined
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4061 2013-04-12 21:00:34 <Goonie_> sipa: yeah I can imaging full nodes suffer much more from this.
4062 2013-04-12 21:00:49 <sipa> right now, the UTXO set is tiny compared to the block chain
4063 2013-04-12 21:00:59 atweiden has quit (Quit: Leaving)
4064 2013-04-12 21:01:00 <sipa> but accumulating dust in it should be discouraged
4065 2013-04-12 21:01:01 <ltrottier> HM2: though perhaps this whole scheme needs some more thinking through â¦
4066 2013-04-12 21:01:35 <HM2> ltrottier: i think so yeah. i think perhaps you need some sort of signature from the merchant that accepted the photo, which implies some sort of PKI
4067 2013-04-12 21:02:04 <HM2> that would get you merchant reputation if fraud was proven
4068 2013-04-12 21:02:13 saracen has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
4069 2013-04-12 21:02:22 <HM2> but PKI is all sucky
4070 2013-04-12 21:02:24 <ltrottier> HM2: right. I was thinking something along these lines. it might be enough to prioritize such transactions (??)
4071 2013-04-12 21:02:54 <HM2> you can't prioritise a transaction you can't prove is anymore trustworthy than a non-photo verified transaction
4072 2013-04-12 21:03:09 <HM2> it's effectively an honour system
4073 2013-04-12 21:03:31 ali1234 has left ()
4074 2013-04-12 21:03:41 <Goonie_> sipa: look at this https://blockchain.info/tx/31cc0f813ed0798bf47618243d4e5a37f877660c164e40616c4fec35a8a449b0
4075 2013-04-12 21:03:52 <ltrottier> HM2: honor system, definitely. the address would be marked as requiring receiver signature
4076 2013-04-12 21:03:58 <ltrottier> HM2: or somesuch
4077 2013-04-12 21:04:07 <ltrottier> HM2: the larger point (though I feel this is now treading into #bitcoin territory) is that with slightly less anonymity, instant transactions are totally doable
4078 2013-04-12 21:04:14 <Goonie_> its not even the craziest stuff
4079 2013-04-12 21:04:19 wirehead has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
4080 2013-04-12 21:04:42 <sipa> Goonie_: bah :(
4081 2013-04-12 21:05:02 <ltrottier> HM2: and the case where you want instant transactions is generally when you've already foregone some anonymity, anyway
4082 2013-04-12 21:05:10 lamont__ has joined
4083 2013-04-12 21:05:48 <ltrottier> seems much less complicated than the "existing account" schemes I've heard of talked about to permit instant trans
4084 2013-04-12 21:05:52 <sipa> ltrottier: i don't understand what you're discussing; if you establish trust between sender and receiver, there is no confirmation problem; how you establish that trust has nothing to do with bitcoin
4085 2013-04-12 21:05:58 Guest13470 has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
4086 2013-04-12 21:06:54 <ltrottier> sipa: I think that's half true. the bitcoin protocol and the block chain may be able to support the faster establishment of trust, though
4087 2013-04-12 21:07:32 <sipa> i don't see how; they do not represent interactions between identities but between keys
4088 2013-04-12 21:07:41 <sipa> trust is tying identities to keys
4089 2013-04-12 21:07:50 <HM2> most of the time people are honest. the fraudster is rarely the person in front of you but someone who tampered with the system somewhere else
4090 2013-04-12 21:07:51 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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4094 2013-04-12 21:08:52 <ltrottier> HM2: true. the idea with this thing is that the merchant will have a picture of you that they could broadcast
4095 2013-04-12 21:08:59 nsh has joined
4096 2013-04-12 21:09:09 <nsh> CODE, CODE, CODE!
4097 2013-04-12 21:09:17 Diapolis has joined
4098 2013-04-12 21:09:30 <HM2> ATM machines are a classic example. you could have a camera in every one where the bank checked a database of photos. that wouldn't prevent someone from having cloned the card, and stolen the pin and initiating a transaction in a shop at the same time.
4099 2013-04-12 21:10:03 <ltrottier> this is a bit simpler than all that, though.
4100 2013-04-12 21:10:03 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4101 2013-04-12 21:10:17 <ltrottier> it's relying on a human clerk, which might be ludditish
4102 2013-04-12 21:10:18 saracen has joined
4103 2013-04-12 21:10:20 <HM2> i think it's the same principle, unless i'm missing something
4104 2013-04-12 21:11:04 Guyver2 has quit (Quit: :))
4105 2013-04-12 21:11:14 <ltrottier> HM2: the dishonest merchant accepts the transaction from the photo-associated address in the absence of a photo
4106 2013-04-12 21:11:29 <ltrottier> the honest one requires a photo, scans the photo, and looks at the buyer
4107 2013-04-12 21:11:54 <ltrottier> this gives the honest merchant more recourse
4108 2013-04-12 21:12:20 <HM2> recourse?
4109 2013-04-12 21:12:23 n5 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
4110 2013-04-12 21:12:26 <HM2> against whom?
4111 2013-04-12 21:12:35 nomailin1 has quit (Quit: nomailin1)
4112 2013-04-12 21:12:38 <HM2> proving the token you have in your hand was issued to person in front of you trying to spend it, doesn't mean you can just ignore the possibility of a double spend, even if they've been in your shop for 30 minutes
4113 2013-04-12 21:13:04 <HM2> the token is just data so could have been copied and spent somewhere less reputable
4114 2013-04-12 21:13:09 <ltrottier> HM2: it relies on more than crypto, definitely
4115 2013-04-12 21:13:36 <ltrottier> the recourse comes from having the photo of the person
4116 2013-04-12 21:13:54 <HM2> but you don't, you have the photo of the legitimate owner
4117 2013-04-12 21:14:02 <HM2> not the person who cloned their token
4118 2013-04-12 21:14:09 caedes has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4119 2013-04-12 21:14:20 <ltrottier> HM2: now I'm confused.
4120 2013-04-12 21:15:13 <HM2> you can only make it work if you create a new type of cash backed by bitcoin
4121 2013-04-12 21:15:29 <ltrottier> this is for in-person transactions, where the clerk looks at the photo, and you, and in doing so registers that the address is suitable for instant confirmation
4122 2013-04-12 21:15:50 <ltrottier> the legitimate owner of the address will look like the person in the photo
4123 2013-04-12 21:16:29 <ltrottier> (and, furthermore, they'll have to use their phone or whatever to transfer the funds)
4124 2013-04-12 21:17:05 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: hey, if nothing else, maybe next-test will increase awareness of pulltester builds :D
4125 2013-04-12 21:17:43 <HM2> the way i see it: you could have a transaction for 5 BTC locked with a script, requiring some merchant signature to release it. the transaction contains photo retrieval data where merchants who accept these tokens can download cryptographically verified photo files and check that the person trying to spend the token is pictured. they then use *their* key and risk their reputation to release the funds
4126 2013-04-12 21:17:47 <gavinandresen> sure, or awareness that there are a gazillion pulls that need testing....
4127 2013-04-12 21:18:47 <HM2> ltrottier: but you'd need a central authority issuing keys to merchants under a PKI, which insured tokens against fraud, or nobody would trust it
4128 2013-04-12 21:19:31 <sipa> gavinandresen: going over them now...
4129 2013-04-12 21:19:43 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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4133 2013-04-12 21:21:37 <ltrottier> HM2: the intent, here, is to not make double-spends impossible. just to make them traceable
4134 2013-04-12 21:21:46 <ltrottier> or, more traceable
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4136 2013-04-12 21:22:19 cyphase has joined
4137 2013-04-12 21:23:00 <ltrottier> but, I take your point. I was looking for people to challenge the idea :)
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4149 2013-04-12 21:34:31 iwilcox is now known as iwi|cox
4150 2013-04-12 21:34:50 iwi is now known as cox!~iwilcox@90.193.105.102|iwilcox
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4157 2013-04-12 21:44:43 <Luke-Jr> hmm, someone's about to give me $30 :p http://blockexplorer.com/tx/4fb1ee7b2e8121baf400b4a947508b431c39d64e2192059ff482624ba58f01d2
4158 2013-04-12 21:45:21 <sipa> scriptPubKey empty?
4159 2013-04-12 21:46:29 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4160 2013-04-12 21:46:42 <Luke-Jr> yeah
4161 2013-04-12 21:47:09 <warren> screwed up a raw tx?
4162 2013-04-12 21:47:15 <sipa> is that valid?
4163 2013-04-12 21:47:35 <sipa> oh, put a OP_TRUE in scriptSig
4164 2013-04-12 21:47:54 <Luke-Jr> âº
4165 2013-04-12 21:49:41 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i would expect you to consider that theft
4166 2013-04-12 21:52:19 <HM2> if he left it and it was claimed, there's no way to be sure it was claimed by the original owner
4167 2013-04-12 21:53:07 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
4168 2013-04-12 21:53:43 <shesek> what's the status of bitcoinjs? it seems like the repo wasn't updated in a while, and that the docs are full of TODOs
4169 2013-04-12 21:53:55 <shesek> is it usable at the moment?
4170 2013-04-12 21:54:00 <Luke-Jr> sipa: how so?
4171 2013-04-12 21:54:14 <sipa> shesek: i'm sure it's _used_, but not actively developed
4172 2013-04-12 21:54:26 CaptainBlaze has quit (Quit: Peace and love peeps.)
4173 2013-04-12 21:54:31 <shesek> sipa, where is it used?
4174 2013-04-12 21:54:43 <sipa> shesek: dunno
4175 2013-04-12 21:54:44 <shesek> any open source projects that I can look into to see the usage?
4176 2013-04-12 21:54:48 <shesek> the docs are really lacking :(
4177 2013-04-12 21:54:58 <sipa> shesek: but justmoon now works for ripple, so...
4178 2013-04-12 21:55:06 <warren> Someone mentioned that blockchain is based on bitcoinjs. I see no evidence of that though.
4179 2013-04-12 21:55:26 <shesek> sipa, justmoon is the developer behind it?
4180 2013-04-12 21:55:29 <sipa> shesek: yes
4181 2013-04-12 21:55:39 <sipa> Luke-Jr: you're taking something that's not yours?
4182 2013-04-12 21:55:54 <lianj> any nodes where i can send a non-standard script and makes it to a miner then?
4183 2013-04-12 21:56:06 <sipa> Luke-Jr: (btw, i personally have no problem with someone taking something left behind so carelessly, but it still feels not entirely correct to me)
4184 2013-04-12 21:56:20 <Luke-Jr> sipa: how is it not mine? if someone intentionally throws a $20 bill in the trash, I don't think it's theft to take it
4185 2013-04-12 21:56:32 <lianj> Luke-Jr: damn, i was faster :P
4186 2013-04-12 21:56:35 <Luke-Jr> and the history of the transaction kinda suggest intent
4187 2013-04-12 21:56:44 <lianj> Luke-Jr: just hard to push it ;)
4188 2013-04-12 21:56:49 <sipa> Luke-Jr: the fact that it's clearly intentional is relevant indeed
4189 2013-04-12 21:56:56 resistor_ has quit (Quit: your mom)
4190 2013-04-12 21:57:30 <Luke-Jr> lianj: my Bitcoin-Qt has a patch to automatically spend anything it can easily generate a dummy script for :p
4191 2013-04-12 21:58:00 <lianj> meh and because you run a miner you have the advantage :P
4192 2013-04-12 21:58:50 <lianj> Luke-Jr: did you also redeem the empty script one before that?
4193 2013-04-12 21:58:56 jeewee has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4194 2013-04-12 21:58:59 <lianj> the 0.00004096
4195 2013-04-12 22:00:14 Phraust has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
4196 2013-04-12 22:00:40 Phraust has joined
4197 2013-04-12 22:01:04 <Luke-Jr> lianj: no, not sure why
4198 2013-04-12 22:01:26 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
4199 2013-04-12 22:02:02 teff has joined
4200 2013-04-12 22:02:38 <lianj> Luke-Jr: but will non-standard script send to relay.eligius.st get into your blocks?
4201 2013-04-12 22:02:40 <diki> is boost really required for bitcoin?
4202 2013-04-12 22:02:46 <diki> I had better time compiling qt from source
4203 2013-04-12 22:02:51 <diki> than this garbage of boost
4204 2013-04-12 22:03:09 graingert has joined
4205 2013-04-12 22:03:09 <HM2> boost is an excellent library
4206 2013-04-12 22:03:10 n5 has joined
4207 2013-04-12 22:03:16 <diki> with a horrible build system
4208 2013-04-12 22:03:24 [NS] has joined
4209 2013-04-12 22:03:27 <HM2> yep
4210 2013-04-12 22:03:33 graingert is now known as Guest45091
4211 2013-04-12 22:03:37 ThomasV has joined
4212 2013-04-12 22:04:00 <kadoban> so don't build it, doesn't your linux have a dev package for it?
4213 2013-04-12 22:04:13 <Luke-Jr> lianj: with a reasonable fee
4214 2013-04-12 22:04:31 <diki> kadoban:What makes you assume automatically that I am on Linux?
4215 2013-04-12 22:04:50 <lianj> Luke-Jr: well, normal fee calc though?
4216 2013-04-12 22:05:09 Guest45091 has quit (Client Quit)
4217 2013-04-12 22:05:14 graingert_ has joined
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4219 2013-04-12 22:05:14 graingert_ has joined
4220 2013-04-12 22:05:20 <kadoban> diki: flawed assumption, but most people i know who compile from source are. isn't boost easy to build on windows anyway tho? was last time i did
4221 2013-04-12 22:05:24 <Luke-Jr> lianj: that should do it, but usually cheaper is fine too
4222 2013-04-12 22:05:27 systemParanoid has joined
4223 2013-04-12 22:05:32 <Luke-Jr> lianj: note it won't accept a double-spend though :P
4224 2013-04-12 22:05:46 <lianj> hehe ofc. but sweet, good to know
4225 2013-04-12 22:05:48 tmsk has quit (Quit: tmsk)
4226 2013-04-12 22:05:50 <Luke-Jr> diki: he was giving you more credit
4227 2013-04-12 22:06:05 <lianj> Luke-Jr: know you did, but not sure it still worked
4228 2013-04-12 22:06:08 <diki> kadoban:I've built almost everything on Windows
4229 2013-04-12 22:06:15 <diki> even now Qt.
4230 2013-04-12 22:07:21 Odyessus has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
4231 2013-04-12 22:07:50 <HM2> lol
4232 2013-04-12 22:07:52 <HM2> "because we're computer geeks we have no friends who can act as trusted mediators"
4233 2013-04-12 22:07:55 <HM2> -- gmaxwell
4234 2013-04-12 22:08:12 <Luke-Jr> O.o
4235 2013-04-12 22:08:21 cybermoron has joined
4236 2013-04-12 22:09:09 <HM2> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/why_hash_locked
4237 2013-04-12 22:09:11 <HM2> this page
4238 2013-04-12 22:10:07 DrAkaman has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
4239 2013-04-12 22:12:10 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
4240 2013-04-12 22:12:21 <diki> so how are the boost libraries cross-compiled for windows in a linux environment?
4241 2013-04-12 22:12:35 <sipa> look at the gitian scripts
4242 2013-04-12 22:12:41 <BlueMatt> diki: save yourself the trouble, install linux
4243 2013-04-12 22:12:45 <sipa> contrib/gitian-descriptors
4244 2013-04-12 22:13:02 <diki> BlueMatt:And never game again running DX11 games?
4245 2013-04-12 22:13:09 <sipa> diki: even just in a VM
4246 2013-04-12 22:13:30 <diki> too late now, with all I just compiled.
4247 2013-04-12 22:13:42 <HM2> Boost should compile fine on Windows
4248 2013-04-12 22:14:09 <diki> HM2:It requires VS(which I have) but will it retain binary compatability when I compile bitcoin-qt with mingw?
4249 2013-04-12 22:14:10 * BlueMatt has built bitcoin entirely on windows...its just not fun
4250 2013-04-12 22:14:25 oiram_ has joined
4251 2013-04-12 22:14:47 <sipa> diki: i doubt that, you need to build everything with the same compiler suite, normally
4252 2013-04-12 22:14:47 <Luke-Jr> speaking of Windows, anyone here have any experience building WINE for Windows?
4253 2013-04-12 22:14:59 <BlueMatt> wat?
4254 2013-04-12 22:15:07 <BlueMatt> why?
4255 2013-04-12 22:15:16 <gonffen> diki: ever hear of cedega?
4256 2013-04-12 22:15:25 Xeno-Genesis has joined
4257 2013-04-12 22:15:33 <undecim> So you can run windows programs on windows, ofc.
4258 2013-04-12 22:15:34 <gonffen> wine for windows? is there some point to that?
4259 2013-04-12 22:15:43 <HM2> no
4260 2013-04-12 22:15:45 <undecim> probably testing
4261 2013-04-12 22:15:50 <HM2> mingw doesn't use the MS standard c++ library
4262 2013-04-12 22:15:56 <undecim> For people who are too poor to afford a linux distro
4263 2013-04-12 22:16:02 <sipa> HM2: i thought it did
4264 2013-04-12 22:16:10 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: WINE has a faster DX11 implementation, so I figured I could run my Windows games faster..
4265 2013-04-12 22:16:13 <HM2> really?!
4266 2013-04-12 22:16:14 * Luke-Jr trolling
4267 2013-04-12 22:16:18 <gonffen> lol Luke-Jr
4268 2013-04-12 22:16:19 <sipa> lol
4269 2013-04-12 22:16:23 <diki> Just seems odd that a binary could be produced for Windows under Linux with boost and everything with mingw, but you can't compile boost with mingw on Windows.
4270 2013-04-12 22:16:32 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4271 2013-04-12 22:16:41 <sipa> diki: you certainly can build boost with mingw on Windows
4272 2013-04-12 22:16:42 Edward_Black has joined
4273 2013-04-12 22:16:49 <sipa> it may not be supported, but it's certainly possible
4274 2013-04-12 22:17:22 * BlueMatt once got a 100 BTC bounty for instructions on building wxbitcoin on windows
4275 2013-04-12 22:17:25 <BlueMatt> damn to have that
4276 2013-04-12 22:17:35 neo2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4277 2013-04-12 22:17:37 <diki> I'm trying a couple of things right now, but they are not working. Tried bjam but outputs some mismatched core and engine thing. Tried ./build.sh but I get Failed to build Boost.Build build engine
4278 2013-04-12 22:17:39 oiram has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4279 2013-04-12 22:17:53 <sipa> you'll probably need to specify some things manually
4280 2013-04-12 22:17:54 <HM2> i dread porting my code to Windows
4281 2013-04-12 22:17:57 <diki> and so far google has not helped me
4282 2013-04-12 22:18:00 <wumpus> I've built boost with msvc on windows, dont know about mingw
4283 2013-04-12 22:18:07 <sipa> diki: look at the gitian scripts
4284 2013-04-12 22:18:22 <wumpus> BlueMatt: wow :)
4285 2013-04-12 22:18:29 <sipa> wumpus: and bitcoin-qt also with msvc then, or with mingw?
4286 2013-04-12 22:18:34 Anduck has joined
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4288 2013-04-12 22:18:34 Anduck has joined
4289 2013-04-12 22:18:54 <wumpus> I've built everything with msvc, one time
4290 2013-04-12 22:18:55 atweiden has joined
4291 2013-04-12 22:19:05 <sipa> my condolences
4292 2013-04-12 22:19:17 <diki> VS is pos
4293 2013-04-12 22:19:22 <diki> bloated, severely.
4294 2013-04-12 22:19:27 <wumpus> but no one cared and my trial license expired, so I gave up :P
4295 2013-04-12 22:19:39 Xexe has joined
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4297 2013-04-12 22:19:39 Xexe has joined
4298 2013-04-12 22:19:53 <diki> sipa:Can you provide me with a direct link to these scripts?
4299 2013-04-12 22:20:08 <sipa> diki: you have them, they are in contrib/gitian-descriptors
4300 2013-04-12 22:20:08 <wumpus> diki: well it worked ok, I just don't want to pay for a compiler
4301 2013-04-12 22:20:34 oiram_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4302 2013-04-12 22:20:46 <wumpus> gcc works well enough even on windows
4303 2013-04-12 22:21:09 <diki> very very interesting
4304 2013-04-12 22:21:42 <sipa> ;;blocks
4305 2013-04-12 22:21:43 <gribble> 231041
4306 2013-04-12 22:21:48 <> _STIMPY_|!~doddy@90.200.43.57|wumpus, indeed. Works great with x32,x64 and even vxworks (latter being a with xcomoiler of course)
4307 2013-04-12 22:22:24 <sipa> x86, x86_64 you mean, or really x32?
4308 2013-04-12 22:22:45 <sipa> ah, x32 doesn't exist for windows
4309 2013-04-12 22:22:51 <> _STIMPY_|!~doddy@90.200.43.57|sipa, thats linux speak. I don't speak that...lol
4310 2013-04-12 22:22:52 <Luke-Jr> neither does x64 :p
4311 2013-04-12 22:22:53 dvide has quit ()
4312 2013-04-12 22:22:57 oiram has joined
4313 2013-04-12 22:23:14 <wumpus> |_STIMPY_|: the only thing is that msvc compiles faster on windows; running gcc in mingw is pretty slow, I think due to the unix emulation layer...
4314 2013-04-12 22:23:27 bitcoinbulletin has joined
4315 2013-04-12 22:23:45 taha has quit (Quit: Leaving)
4316 2013-04-12 22:24:12 <> _STIMPY_|!~doddy@90.200.43.57|wumpus, maybe. But I need to compile for win, linux, mac and vxworks so thats a no-no
4317 2013-04-12 22:24:41 <wumpus> |_STIMPY_|: I know, I know, normaly we always cross-compile
4318 2013-04-12 22:24:52 <diki> sipa:those scripts still need a linux based OS, don't they?
4319 2013-04-12 22:25:17 <sipa> diki: yes, they run inside the gitian VM, which is ubuntu
4320 2013-04-12 22:25:34 <sipa> diki: but the configuration for compilation of boost will be similar, i think
4321 2013-04-12 22:25:37 <diki> requires internet?
4322 2013-04-12 22:26:06 <sipa> once you have the VM images no, but gitian only really works on Ubuntu anway
4323 2013-04-12 22:26:20 <sipa> so unless you plan to run a VM in a VM, that's not really an option in Windows
4324 2013-04-12 22:26:26 <sipa> i just pointed you there for hints
4325 2013-04-12 22:26:33 Impaler has joined
4326 2013-04-12 22:28:09 <> _STIMPY_|!~doddy@90.200.43.57|wumpus, I managed to compile libbitcoin on windows. doesn't work as yet, but does compile
4327 2013-04-12 22:29:51 makomk has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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4332 2013-04-12 22:31:34 makomk has joined
4333 2013-04-12 22:33:35 <diki> is boost 1.50 mandatory?
4334 2013-04-12 22:33:54 <sipa> no, you can use some older boosts
4335 2013-04-12 22:34:04 <sipa> though the specifics depend on the OS, i think
4336 2013-04-12 22:34:33 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
4337 2013-04-12 22:37:59 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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4342 2013-04-12 22:45:12 Guest5771 is now known as MobGod
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4347 2013-04-12 22:49:11 taha has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4348 2013-04-12 22:49:50 <diki> I think it's working
4349 2013-04-12 22:49:56 <diki> a native build of boost with mingw
4350 2013-04-12 22:50:17 <sipa> \o/
4351 2013-04-12 22:50:24 <jspilman> from earlier -- https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/why_hash_locked -- very interesting stuff!
4352 2013-04-12 22:50:47 <jspilman> is there a way to see all of a specific user's pages?
4353 2013-04-12 22:50:53 <diki> I don't know about you guys, but boost should really support mingw.
4354 2013-04-12 22:50:54 <jspilman> search doesn't seem to find them
4355 2013-04-12 22:51:07 <diki> I mean, other guys don't even want to hear about MSVC, but these guys are dead set on it
4356 2013-04-12 22:51:31 <jspilman> I guess the full user contrib history is available
4357 2013-04-12 22:52:12 osmosis has joined
4358 2013-04-12 22:52:22 Odyessus has joined
4359 2013-04-12 22:52:27 <wumpus> I'm sure boost supports mingw
4360 2013-04-12 22:52:43 <diki> wumpus:it explicitly says in their docs they don't
4361 2013-04-12 22:52:48 <diki> but...they do in fact do it
4362 2013-04-12 22:52:51 <wumpus> I mean we're building boost with mingw in a cross compile
4363 2013-04-12 22:52:56 <diki> native
4364 2013-04-12 22:53:03 <wumpus> if THAT works, native should be a piece of cake
4365 2013-04-12 22:53:04 <diki> Native boost build from MinGW on windows
4366 2013-04-12 22:53:40 <diki> If this works, it may be provided in the build-msw.txt file in /doc
4367 2013-04-12 22:53:43 kalleboo_ has joined
4368 2013-04-12 22:54:25 <wumpus> indeed
4369 2013-04-12 22:54:38 <wumpus> would be great if you updated the docs with your steps
4370 2013-04-12 22:54:44 jj0hns0n has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
4371 2013-04-12 22:55:06 <wumpus> most people fail on building bitcoin on windows
4372 2013-04-12 22:55:14 <diki> I do not fail
4373 2013-04-12 22:55:19 <wumpus> :)
4374 2013-04-12 22:55:49 <wumpus> diapolo also got it to work but he's not here now
4375 2013-04-12 22:56:03 ltrottier has quit (Quit: ltrottier)
4376 2013-04-12 22:56:11 <sipa> afaik, Diapolo's binaries only work on his own system
4377 2013-04-12 22:56:21 <sipa> probably linking against mingw library dynamically
4378 2013-04-12 22:56:38 <wumpus> oh yes, he's linking dynamically, but he's one of the few people that manage to build it on windows at all
4379 2013-04-12 22:56:54 <sipa> indeed
4380 2013-04-12 22:57:05 sgornick has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
4381 2013-04-12 22:57:11 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4382 2013-04-12 22:57:37 <vrs> jspilman: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Special:PrefixIndex/User:Gmaxwell
4383 2013-04-12 22:57:44 <HM2> the mtgox AMA was fairly pathetic on reddit :(
4384 2013-04-12 22:58:06 <diki> HM2:I already told many people that gox just manipulate
4385 2013-04-12 22:58:07 dnathe4th has joined
4386 2013-04-12 22:58:13 <diki> closed down for market cooldown...
4387 2013-04-12 22:58:14 <gmaxwell> jspilman: Special:allpages
4388 2013-04-12 22:58:23 <vrs> gmaxwell: special:prefixindex is better
4389 2013-04-12 22:58:41 Y0uKn0w has joined
4390 2013-04-12 22:59:12 Y0uKn0w has left ()
4391 2013-04-12 22:59:29 <diki> offtopic, a few days ago my hunger disappeared
4392 2013-04-12 22:59:31 <diki> literally
4393 2013-04-12 22:59:43 <diki> I had to force myself to eat otherwise I just didn't go hungry
4394 2013-04-12 23:00:09 one_zero has joined
4395 2013-04-12 23:00:50 Xeno-Genesis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
4396 2013-04-12 23:01:18 <diki> I went almost 48 hours without food and still was not hungry, but I also entered a possible phase which is known as refeeding syndrome
4397 2013-04-12 23:01:38 <diki> so I had to take it slowly and try to replenish phosporus, megnesium and so on
4398 2013-04-12 23:01:53 sacredch1o has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
4399 2013-04-12 23:02:04 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
4400 2013-04-12 23:02:08 <phantomcircuit> diki, otherwise known as "empty the cupboards" syndrome
4401 2013-04-12 23:02:24 FredEE has joined
4402 2013-04-12 23:02:25 <jspilman> thanks vrs!
4403 2013-04-12 23:02:29 sebicas has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
4404 2013-04-12 23:02:55 one_zero has quit (Client Quit)
4405 2013-04-12 23:02:57 <diki> phantomcircuit:I wish, I am a guy that eats a lot, but this time I am completely devoid of any feeling of hunger. Not sure if it's stress related.
4406 2013-04-12 23:03:08 sacredch1o has joined
4407 2013-04-12 23:03:14 <phantomcircuit> oh
4408 2013-04-12 23:03:24 Odyessus has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
4409 2013-04-12 23:03:32 <phantomcircuit> diki, i honestly dont understand the stress that people experience
4410 2013-04-12 23:03:37 <diki> ha
4411 2013-04-12 23:03:41 <diki> look at the price
4412 2013-04-12 23:03:43 one_zero has joined
4413 2013-04-12 23:03:44 <phantomcircuit> im not sure if that's just who i am
4414 2013-04-12 23:03:48 <diki> that alone was enogh to stop your heart
4415 2013-04-12 23:03:53 <phantomcircuit> or if it's because of something else
4416 2013-04-12 23:04:02 <diki> You are just used to it.
4417 2013-04-12 23:04:07 <diki> Losing 511 coins and so on
4418 2013-04-12 23:04:09 <phantomcircuit> diki, shrug i probably have more to gain/lose than you do in all of this
4419 2013-04-12 23:04:12 taha has joined
4420 2013-04-12 23:04:14 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
4421 2013-04-12 23:04:23 <muhoo> it's all just a game
4422 2013-04-12 23:04:38 <muhoo> it's an illusion, really. it's all just 1's and 0's.
4423 2013-04-12 23:04:49 <phantomcircuit> i think people need to just relax some
4424 2013-04-12 23:05:07 <muhoo> i have lost my ass more than once, in various things. i'm over it.
4425 2013-04-12 23:05:13 <phantomcircuit> if you're in a first world country the absolute worst outcome is $0 and you get a normal job
4426 2013-04-12 23:05:22 <gfawkes> not true.
4427 2013-04-12 23:05:26 <muhoo> phantomcircuit: +1
4428 2013-04-12 23:05:43 <muhoo> well, unless you did something really stupid, like spend money you don't have :-)
4429 2013-04-12 23:05:47 <phantomcircuit> i guess the worst outcome is you borrowed money from a bookie and they break your fingers
4430 2013-04-12 23:05:58 zarate has joined
4431 2013-04-12 23:05:58 nivs has quit ()
4432 2013-04-12 23:06:12 <phantomcircuit> but really nobody does that... RIGHT?
4433 2013-04-12 23:06:15 * phantomcircuit looks around
4434 2013-04-12 23:06:15 nivs has joined
4435 2013-04-12 23:06:20 <diki> sadly my country is full of those kind of bookies
4436 2013-04-12 23:06:23 <gfawkes> no, the worst outcome is you end up indebted for the rest of your life and get exploited for the rest of your life.
4437 2013-04-12 23:06:26 xeba has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
4438 2013-04-12 23:06:27 <diki> They are fast loans
4439 2013-04-12 23:06:33 <muhoo> gfawkes: hey, wait....
4440 2013-04-12 23:06:40 <phantomcircuit> gfawkes, huh? bankruptcy
4441 2013-04-12 23:06:49 <gfawkes> 2005 bankruptcy reform act
4442 2013-04-12 23:07:14 <gfawkes> you cannot declare chapter 7 bankruptcy and get a fresh start unless you are below the poverty level for your state for *60* months (5 years)
4443 2013-04-12 23:07:45 <gfawkes> and if you are below poverty for 60 months, there's probably a better chance of you committing suicide than there is of getting into chapter 7
4444 2013-04-12 23:08:00 <phantomcircuit> it's not the poverty level it's the median income
4445 2013-04-12 23:08:20 muadib has joined
4446 2013-04-12 23:08:32 <diki> hehe
4447 2013-04-12 23:08:33 <diki> libboost_filesystem-mgw47-1_46_1.a
4448 2013-04-12 23:08:37 <gfawkes> either way, good luck eating.
4449 2013-04-12 23:08:43 <diki> Will try later with 1.50.0
4450 2013-04-12 23:09:46 <phantomcircuit> gfawkes, it's a means test
4451 2013-04-12 23:09:52 jtimon has joined
4452 2013-04-12 23:10:14 jtimon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4453 2013-04-12 23:10:22 <phantomcircuit> basically if using their formulas they think you can pay your debtors 25% of what they're owed in 5 years your stuck
4454 2013-04-12 23:10:32 <gfawkes> exactly.
4455 2013-04-12 23:10:58 <phantomcircuit> gfawkes, notice that gives you incentive to just go super ridiculously bankrupt as opposed to kind of bankrupt
4456 2013-04-12 23:11:11 <gfawkes> except student loans do not count.
4457 2013-04-12 23:11:15 <phantomcircuit> which in the event of a major bitcoin slide is probably where people who took out loans would be
4458 2013-04-12 23:11:32 <phantomcircuit> gfawkes, anybody using student loans for anything other than educational expenses is just stupid
4459 2013-04-12 23:11:55 <phantomcircuit> non-dis-chargeable debt used for investing? insane
4460 2013-04-12 23:12:09 normanrichards has joined
4461 2013-04-12 23:12:29 <gfawkes> sure, but i'm not talking about using student loans to bet on bitcoin
4462 2013-04-12 23:13:04 <gfawkes> that'd be fairly stupid imo, college is already expensive enough
4463 2013-04-12 23:13:12 <gfawkes> and i went when it was "cheap"
4464 2013-04-12 23:13:31 <gfawkes> anywho
4465 2013-04-12 23:13:37 <gfawkes> off to run some errands
4466 2013-04-12 23:13:48 <gfawkes> but there are things worse than being broke.
4467 2013-04-12 23:13:53 <shesek> gfawkes, wait, they don't let people _under_ the poverty level to declare bankruptcy?
4468 2013-04-12 23:13:59 MarkyRamone has joined
4469 2013-04-12 23:14:06 <shesek> what's the logic in that?
4470 2013-04-12 23:14:08 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
4471 2013-04-12 23:14:23 <muhoo> the perverse insentives of punishing the poor, is what it is
4472 2013-04-12 23:14:26 <muhoo> incentives
4473 2013-04-12 23:14:39 <gfawkes> shesek - correct, there is no logic, the logic was a bunch of asshole baby boomers exploited chapter 7 for their own game and then changed the rules for everyone else.
4474 2013-04-12 23:14:47 <muhoo> it's euthanasia, really, gfawkes hinted at it, but i truly believe that's the intent
4475 2013-04-12 23:15:12 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
4476 2013-04-12 23:15:28 <muhoo> being someone who has personal experience with wending his way through the "means testing" system. but, way OT and into politics, taking off now :-P
4477 2013-04-12 23:15:38 <wumpus> the world is a fucked up place :-/
4478 2013-04-12 23:16:11 <muhoo> fair enough. let's make it a better one. we can start with creating a new currency... oh, wait.
4479 2013-04-12 23:16:15 * nsh invested his student loan in alcohol futures
4480 2013-04-12 23:16:33 <nsh> whenever i thought there was too much future, i drank
4481 2013-04-12 23:16:37 <nsh> things worked out
4482 2013-04-12 23:16:40 <muhoo> FOCUS PEOPLE FOCUS :-)
4483 2013-04-12 23:17:19 Lophie has joined
4484 2013-04-12 23:17:46 HM2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
4485 2013-04-12 23:19:27 <Lophie> Hello awesome people
4486 2013-04-12 23:19:32 <Lophie> If I may I want to ask a dev-related question
4487 2013-04-12 23:19:36 <Lophie> ^_^
4488 2013-04-12 23:19:42 viperhr has joined
4489 2013-04-12 23:19:44 <Lophie> May I?
4490 2013-04-12 23:20:02 <Lophie> Q) In a hypothetical alt-chain where mining is an authorized privilege. How fast (But also safe) the block generation time should be. Suggestion with reasons? Thank you
4491 2013-04-12 23:20:41 <nsh> A) wat
4492 2013-04-12 23:20:47 <BlueMatt> are you, per chance, creating an alt-coin?
4493 2013-04-12 23:20:56 <Lophie> you know since mining is centeralized in a since so propogation is enough between the Big mining nodes
4494 2013-04-12 23:21:00 <Lophie> NO
4495 2013-04-12 23:21:07 <Lophie> I am not creating an alt-chain
4496 2013-04-12 23:21:10 <Lophie> not quite
4497 2013-04-12 23:21:11 <BlueMatt> ok, good
4498 2013-04-12 23:21:14 <BlueMatt> oh god
4499 2013-04-12 23:21:25 <BlueMatt> "Tell us what you're trying to do, not how you think you need to do it." --topic
4500 2013-04-12 23:21:58 <Lophie> It is still a brainstorming work and I am ding some research to make sure it is even feasible and make sense at all
4501 2013-04-12 23:22:03 zarate has quit ()
4502 2013-04-12 23:22:10 <Lophie> but some information are simply hard to find on the web
4503 2013-04-12 23:22:44 Apexseals has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
4504 2013-04-12 23:22:58 <Lophie> Basically what I am working on is an approach to decentralizing exchange markets for block-chain based digital currencies
4505 2013-04-12 23:23:12 <wumpus> mining is an authorized privilege, what do you mean? *this is my part of the keyspace, I have mining rights here!*?
4506 2013-04-12 23:23:28 jordandotdev has joined
4507 2013-04-12 23:23:49 <phantomcircuit> Lophie, you cannot reasonably decentralize an exchange
4508 2013-04-12 23:23:53 <Lophie> this can be done in an alt-chain. I am sure I read about it somewhere and still looking for it
4509 2013-04-12 23:23:56 <phantomcircuit> the problem is intractable
4510 2013-04-12 23:23:59 <Lophie> But yes such rules can be imposed
4511 2013-04-12 23:24:21 <Lophie> Yes I cannot. The approach is a bit.... odd
4512 2013-04-12 23:24:36 <Lophie> it is about decenteralizng the market back-end
4513 2013-04-12 23:25:29 <Lophie> it is now just bits here and there really. this is the whole point of me coming here for some help on some info
4514 2013-04-12 23:26:03 <phantomcircuit> as i said
4515 2013-04-12 23:26:08 <phantomcircuit> the problem is intractable
4516 2013-04-12 23:26:08 <muhoo> if there were a way to decentralize exchanges and keep anyone from dominating (ahem, mtgox), that'd be great. but not easy.
4517 2013-04-12 23:26:16 <sipa> Lophie: if you mean "an authorized privilege", do you mean a single party?
4518 2013-04-12 23:26:32 <sipa> Lophie: because if so, there are far more efficient systems possible than a blockchain
4519 2013-04-12 23:26:39 <shesek> on the testnet, how come running getdifficulty locally and http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/q/getdifficulty shows different difficulty? (7 vs 23)
4520 2013-04-12 23:26:51 <Lophie> a single party alloowing certain nodes to mine and able to revoke that privlege, yes
4521 2013-04-12 23:26:54 <muhoo> this problem is made of human flesh. mtgox needs to do what the miners are doing and voluntarily relinquish market dominance by discouraging people from using them when they get near 50% market share
4522 2013-04-12 23:27:02 <sipa> Lophie: ok, that's different
4523 2013-04-12 23:27:35 Diapolo has joined
4524 2013-04-12 23:27:38 <phantomcircuit> muhoo, well it sort of happens naturally
4525 2013-04-12 23:27:40 <Lophie> the thing is I was thinking you don't centeralize the exchange. You make them multiply easily and be easy to compare
4526 2013-04-12 23:27:42 HM2 has joined
4527 2013-04-12 23:27:47 <phantomcircuit> check out the volume for other exchanges while gox was offline
4528 2013-04-12 23:27:48 <Lophie> and make them rely on Bitcoin structure
4529 2013-04-12 23:27:55 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
4530 2013-04-12 23:27:57 Darin has joined
4531 2013-04-12 23:27:58 ltrottier has joined
4532 2013-04-12 23:28:17 <phantomcircuit> muhoo, http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/intrsngEUR#rg10zigDailyztgSzm1g10zm2g25zvzcv
4533 2013-04-12 23:28:28 <HM2> phantomcircuit: student loans are some of the cheapest debt you'll ever have. investing it makes more sense than any other loan
4534 2013-04-12 23:28:32 <HM2> if you can spare the cash
4535 2013-04-12 23:28:32 gfinn has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
4536 2013-04-12 23:28:48 <phantomcircuit> HM2, that hasn't been true for about 10 years now
4537 2013-04-12 23:28:51 <Lophie> So awesome guys, Does anyone have an idea about this?
4538 2013-04-12 23:28:57 <phantomcircuit> student loans are only cheap when you're in school
4539 2013-04-12 23:29:03 <phantomcircuit> as soon as you get out you're screwed
4540 2013-04-12 23:29:12 <phantomcircuit> Lophie, so just write an open source exchange
4541 2013-04-12 23:29:15 <HM2> depends on the country i guess
4542 2013-04-12 23:29:18 <phantomcircuit> problem solved
4543 2013-04-12 23:29:25 <phantomcircuit> HM2, in the us student loans are not cheap debt
4544 2013-04-12 23:29:36 <phantomcircuit> you get a better rate for business loans
4545 2013-04-12 23:29:40 <Lophie> nope, problem not solved because the back-end is centeralised
4546 2013-04-12 23:29:45 <Lophie> so DDoSable
4547 2013-04-12 23:29:50 <HM2> in the uk they're pegged to 0.5% above a measure of inflation
4548 2013-04-12 23:30:00 <Lophie> Market can be manupilated
4549 2013-04-12 23:30:02 <Lophie> etc etc
4550 2013-04-12 23:30:05 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: indeed, if they keep attacking the biggest exchange, some form of decentralization will happen automatically.. it's not pretty but heh
4551 2013-04-12 23:30:38 <gfawkes> the problem is the fiat, you can't exactly send fiat through the intertubes.
4552 2013-04-12 23:30:48 <Lophie> what about hundreds and hundreds of an inflationary digital currencies that are merged mined with Bitcoin?
4553 2013-04-12 23:30:52 <phantomcircuit> HM2, unsubsidized loans from the federal government are 6.8% in the us
4554 2013-04-12 23:30:55 Blackreign is now known as BR-afk
4555 2013-04-12 23:30:58 <HM2> phantomcircuit: lol
4556 2013-04-12 23:31:01 <muhoo> gfawkes: wat? fiat is just 1's and 0's too
4557 2013-04-12 23:31:15 <Lophie> no seriously just let me work on this.
4558 2013-04-12 23:31:19 <phantomcircuit> HM2, yeah
4559 2013-04-12 23:31:24 astor has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
4560 2013-04-12 23:31:28 <gfawkes> muhoo - sure, but they are the bank's 1's and 0's and not yours
4561 2013-04-12 23:31:30 K1NN6 has joined
4562 2013-04-12 23:31:34 <Diapolo> hi there
4563 2013-04-12 23:31:39 <muhoo> Lophie: i wish you luck
4564 2013-04-12 23:31:40 <wumpus> Diapolo!
4565 2013-04-12 23:31:45 <gfawkes> if it was an only alt-coin exchange it could be decentralized easily
4566 2013-04-12 23:31:47 <Lophie> thnx guys
4567 2013-04-12 23:31:52 blackreign has joined
4568 2013-04-12 23:31:57 <Diapolo> hey wumpus
4569 2013-04-12 23:32:04 <gfawkes> just couldn't involve fiats
4570 2013-04-12 23:32:41 <muhoo> really? we have multiple fiat exchanges already. the problem is just that there is One Gorilla dominating
4571 2013-04-12 23:32:46 <gfawkes> at which point you are basically just writing a local exchange application that creates a p2p exchange in a similar fashion to open outcall
4572 2013-04-12 23:32:48 <Diapolo> Any news on 0.8.2 RC eta?
4573 2013-04-12 23:33:13 <wumpus> Diapolo: diki is trying to build on windows (mingw)
4574 2013-04-12 23:33:15 <phantomcircuit> Lophie, an exchange is always going to have a centralized processor, distributed processing is much slower (10000-100000x slower) than processing on a single system
4575 2013-04-12 23:33:17 <Lophie> what is nbew in that?
4576 2013-04-12 23:33:19 <phantomcircuit> Lophie, so as i said
4577 2013-04-12 23:33:23 <phantomcircuit> the problem is intractable
4578 2013-04-12 23:33:25 <gfawkes> muhoo - right, but he wants to decentralize the exchanges and since they're the ones dealing with the fiat and all the rules, for it to work you'd have to kick out the fiat
4579 2013-04-12 23:33:27 MarkyRamone has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
4580 2013-04-12 23:33:39 <phantomcircuit> Lophie, believe me i would know http://76.126.10.242:8080/
4581 2013-04-12 23:34:00 * muhoo loves that regis mckenna explainde the power law distribution as "one gorilla, two chimps, and a bunch of monkeys"
4582 2013-04-12 23:34:07 twmz2 is now known as twmz
4583 2013-04-12 23:34:09 <Lophie> phantomcircuit: Yes exactly the approach is not about Effeciency. It is about reliability of Bitcoin gateways
4584 2013-04-12 23:34:19 <phantomcircuit> Lophie, gateways?
4585 2013-04-12 23:34:26 <Diapolo> wumpus: were there problems with Windows as blocker?
4586 2013-04-12 23:34:31 <wumpus> Diapolo: I don't know about 0.8.2, I don't think there has been talk about it today
4587 2013-04-12 23:34:31 <Lophie> exchanges to fiat
4588 2013-04-12 23:34:31 <Diablo-D3> hey guys
4589 2013-04-12 23:34:36 <Lophie> sorry I am a bit under the influence of ripple there
4590 2013-04-12 23:34:40 <Diablo-D3> screen or tmux
4591 2013-04-12 23:34:40 <phantomcircuit> Lophie, let me save you some time, whatever you write isn't going to stand a change against a 100 gbps ddos
4592 2013-04-12 23:34:44 <muhoo> gfawkes: is that your.... bank balances?
4593 2013-04-12 23:34:48 <Lophie> they call it gateways
4594 2013-04-12 23:35:05 <HM2> phantomcircuit: i just looked it up. in the UK for loans taken out from 1998 - 2012 you paid back 9% of gross earnings over a threshold of $24,200 USD. The interest rate on such loans is currently 1.5% annually
4595 2013-04-12 23:35:13 <phantomcircuit> Lophie, and ripple wouldn't stand up to a large sneeze
4596 2013-04-12 23:35:14 <Lophie> Bitcoin did, and that is the base of what I am doing
4597 2013-04-12 23:35:14 <muhoo> looks like gnucash web interfac
4598 2013-04-12 23:35:14 <wumpus> Diapolo: I don't think so
4599 2013-04-12 23:35:21 <diki> Diapolo:my biggest hurdle was boost
4600 2013-04-12 23:35:35 <diki> thankfully, found a way to compile with mingw
4601 2013-04-12 23:35:39 <phantomcircuit> HM2, yeah that's no bad
4602 2013-04-12 23:35:40 <Lophie> no no ripple just got the word gateway stuck in my mind I think ripple is a major fail
4603 2013-04-12 23:35:46 <phantomcircuit> HM2, that actually makes a lot of sense
4604 2013-04-12 23:36:06 <HM2> phantomcircuit: for loans this year and later it's over £21,000 which is $32,000 USD
4605 2013-04-12 23:36:13 Impaler_ has joined
4606 2013-04-12 23:36:23 <muhoo> HM2: phantomcircuit: and that's why tuition prices are a bubble :-P
4607 2013-04-12 23:36:26 <Lophie> I will tell you the baswe of the idea. I was working on a login system that uses Bitcoin addresses as usernames and signed messages as passwords
4608 2013-04-12 23:36:42 <Lophie> and that was the begning of this retarded idea.
4609 2013-04-12 23:36:46 <HM2> phantomcircuit: loans up until 2012 were pegged to the lower of inflation measure and the central bank rate. :D which is basically 0 these days
4610 2013-04-12 23:36:59 <HM2> they changed the central bank rate as of this year...wonder why
4611 2013-04-12 23:37:03 <amiller> i am so angry at ripple i can hardly see straight
4612 2013-04-12 23:37:16 <HM2> sup with ripple amiller?
4613 2013-04-12 23:37:17 <amiller> and yet i am really glad they made their interface and are bringing some of the credit network ideas to fruition so we can actually play with it
4614 2013-04-12 23:37:27 <Diapolo> diki: did everything work for you or do you need any help
4615 2013-04-12 23:37:31 <Lophie> ripple is a fail idea but we really appreaciate the effort
4616 2013-04-12 23:37:35 <abadr> amiller: why?
4617 2013-04-12 23:37:41 <diki> Diapolo:Well right now I am still in the process of building boost
4618 2013-04-12 23:37:44 <wumpus> what's so bad about ripple?
4619 2013-04-12 23:37:45 <muhoo> it's not a fail idea, it's a fail implementation
4620 2013-04-12 23:37:49 <amiller> HM2, ripple totally has punted on solving any of the underlying problems but are going full steam ahead with marketing and lying about how they've solved everything
4621 2013-04-12 23:38:01 <abadr> they're just getting started. give it a chance.
4622 2013-04-12 23:38:04 <HM2> what problems in particular?
4623 2013-04-12 23:38:06 <Lophie> ah building libboost..... that nightmare..... ubuntu right?
4624 2013-04-12 23:38:08 <amiller> they're not even trying though abadr
4625 2013-04-12 23:38:09 <wumpus> I intend to try it some time but haven't got around to it
4626 2013-04-12 23:38:09 <HM2> i mean, wha's the biggest problem?
4627 2013-04-12 23:38:12 <abadr> it's literally only been a couple months.
4628 2013-04-12 23:38:13 <Lophie> 12.04?
4629 2013-04-12 23:38:30 <abadr> amiller: yes they are. there are a number of people working on it. they've raised money.
4630 2013-04-12 23:38:42 <amiller> abadr they are not willing/interested to solve the underlying problems with something different
4631 2013-04-12 23:38:58 <amiller> it's probably too hard to solve immediately anyway
4632 2013-04-12 23:39:10 <amiller> so maybe they're legitimately doing the best they can with what's apparent in the short term
4633 2013-04-12 23:39:17 <Diapolo> diki: I always edit some files to make the build prcess work on Windows, but it's not that hard in the end
4634 2013-04-12 23:39:18 teff has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
4635 2013-04-12 23:39:23 <amiller> but they claim to have solved problems that they have not - if that's a marketing necessity i don't approve anyway
4636 2013-04-12 23:39:36 <diki> Diapolo:for bitcoin or boost?
4637 2013-04-12 23:39:48 Impaler has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
4638 2013-04-12 23:39:49 <Lophie> phantomcircuit: Thanks for the tips and chat man. Wish me luck or at least that I see the errors of my way and cease this nonesense ^_^
4639 2013-04-12 23:39:52 <wumpus> Diapolo: would be great if you guys documented the build process on windows, suppose it would help a lot of people
4640 2013-04-12 23:40:12 <Diapolo> diki: Boost
4641 2013-04-12 23:40:20 <diki> My process required compiling Qt 4.8.4 from source as GCC 4.7+ has ABI changes.
4642 2013-04-12 23:40:20 meefozio has quit ()
4643 2013-04-12 23:40:29 <wumpus> amiller: yes, their marketing is a bit overdone, compared to what they actually have
4644 2013-04-12 23:40:50 <Diapolo> wumpus: I know there was a thread or issue on Github, which included most needed stuff, but you are right there is no documentation
4645 2013-04-12 23:41:21 Grouver has quit (Quit: Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-)
4646 2013-04-12 23:41:29 <amiller> HM2, the main problem is that their consensus model is highly unrealistic and assumes that every user will come to the same correct decision about the identities of validators to trust
4647 2013-04-12 23:41:40 <HM2> diki: that's odd, gcc should be abi stable
4648 2013-04-12 23:41:58 lupine has quit (Excess Flood)
4649 2013-04-12 23:41:59 <amiller> it's an impossible judgment to make even users were motivated, and in fact users are not motivated and will choose whatever the default is and it's vulnerable to attack
4650 2013-04-12 23:42:21 <HM2> I don't like the idea of ripple
4651 2013-04-12 23:42:24 <amiller> this is in contrast to bitcoin where the only rule to follow is 'work on the longest chain' which is both a straightforward judgment to make and there's reasonable incentive to do so
4652 2013-04-12 23:42:36 <diki> HM2:there were c and c++ abi changes since 4.7
4653 2013-04-12 23:42:44 <sipa> i like the (original) ripple idea on a small scale
4654 2013-04-12 23:42:47 <diki> mostly it didn't bother my programs
4655 2013-04-12 23:42:55 meefozio has joined
4656 2013-04-12 23:42:59 <diki> but believe it, bdb 4.X did not wish to compile
4657 2013-04-12 23:43:05 <amiller> HM2, if you don't like the idea of ripple the credit network concept, then you're wrong! it's actually the best financial model there is!
4658 2013-04-12 23:43:10 <diki> oops, got that wrong
4659 2013-04-12 23:43:15 <Diapolo> diki: yeah I needed to re-build all libs after upgrading to a current MinGW version also
4660 2013-04-12 23:43:30 <diki> managed to compile bitcoin-qt?
4661 2013-04-12 23:43:31 <amiller> you should give it a shot because their interface is actually pretty cool and you can interact with a little bitcoin exchange on a small scale
4662 2013-04-12 23:43:37 <Diapolo> diki: sure
4663 2013-04-12 23:43:42 <wumpus> indeed, if you upgrade the major mingw version you need to rebuild everything
4664 2013-04-12 23:43:45 <diki> Ok, nice to hear :)
4665 2013-04-12 23:43:58 <diki> Yeah, I have tons of libraries I need to rebuilt
4666 2013-04-12 23:44:02 <diki> *rebuild
4667 2013-04-12 23:44:02 <Diapolo> diki: I'm using an own local build for months now
4668 2013-04-12 23:44:28 <Diapolo> I always build Qt and even Qt Creator from source :)
4669 2013-04-12 23:44:35 <HM2> amiller: i don't just don't get peer to peer lending. we already have fiat services that offer indirect peer to peer lending, like zopa
4670 2013-04-12 23:44:51 <HM2> they do credit checks and are legally enforced
4671 2013-04-12 23:45:01 <HM2> and spread risk
4672 2013-04-12 23:45:08 <Diapolo> while we are on seems Qt 5.0.2 is out :) I need to take a look at the changelog
4673 2013-04-12 23:45:37 lupine has joined
4674 2013-04-12 23:46:07 <amiller> HM2, that is a completely different setup - the problem is legal enforcement is not viable at a large scale, you pay a huge premium for that, and it requires pretty heavy handed privacy invading judgments - it's also centrally administered
4675 2013-04-12 23:46:26 <diki> Diapolo:So I compiled boost, but it's folder structure is a bit weird
4676 2013-04-12 23:46:40 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
4677 2013-04-12 23:47:04 <wumpus> 5.0.2 already, wow
4678 2013-04-12 23:47:10 <amiller> zopa/lendingclub etc is about forming credit relations to strangers who you have no connection to or reason to trust except faith in the central third party auditors and their online view
4679 2013-04-12 23:47:21 <HM2> amiller: i just don't believe in trust by proxy. i prefer to lend cash to my friends on a case by case basis
4680 2013-04-12 23:47:33 <Diapolo> just search for *.a in boost\build
4681 2013-04-12 23:47:48 <amiller> HM2, in contrast, ripple is only about managing relationships with people who you have some reason to trust out of band - you never form a relationship with someone you don't trust out of band - and you can use these relationships to do transactions with strangers
4682 2013-04-12 23:47:52 lupine has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
4683 2013-04-12 23:48:06 <amiller> HM2, it is *not* trust by proxy i think you've misunderstood how it works, i'll discuss with you in a diff channel though since this is off topic
4684 2013-04-12 23:48:15 <HM2> what channel?
4685 2013-04-12 23:48:22 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
4686 2013-04-12 23:48:24 <HM2> i can't join wizards atm
4687 2013-04-12 23:48:36 <diki> what is libmemenv?
4688 2013-04-12 23:48:44 <diki> I see it in the makefile.mingw for bitcoi
4689 2013-04-12 23:48:47 <diki> bitcoin*
4690 2013-04-12 23:48:48 <sipa> diki: memory environment for leveldb
4691 2013-04-12 23:49:15 <gmaxwell> HM2: You ought to register w/ freenode.
4692 2013-04-12 23:49:20 <amiller> HM2, uh are you the "huzzah, buy back in at 50" guy? actually just join #ripple and i'll explain it there
4693 2013-04-12 23:49:40 lupine has joined
4694 2013-04-12 23:49:46 <HM2> i tried to register gmaxwell but it told me my email address had been used on too many accounts already. and the only password reset feature is to PM an admin
4695 2013-04-12 23:50:25 <Diapolo> you need to build LevelDB via the MinGW shell
4696 2013-04-12 23:50:30 <HM2> amiller: umm, no i'm not that guy
4697 2013-04-12 23:50:37 <gmaxwell> HM2: you can merge nicks on existing arrounts. But okay, I'll go drop the reg requirement for now. muhoo mentioned the channel in #bitcoin and clueless people instantly started joining
4698 2013-04-12 23:51:05 safra has joined
4699 2013-04-12 23:51:22 lupine has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
4700 2013-04-12 23:51:23 <Diapolo> diki: the last time I checked the LevelDB stuff in bitcoin-qt.pro didn't work with Qt Creator on Windows, so you need to build LevelDB separately
4701 2013-04-12 23:51:24 <diki> Diapolo:Having a bit trouble with that one
4702 2013-04-12 23:51:31 <diki> I did get leveldb.a, but not libmemenv.a
4703 2013-04-12 23:52:03 <diki> Diapolo:Like download it from official site?
4704 2013-04-12 23:52:15 <safra> i forgot my LTC wallet password
4705 2013-04-12 23:52:16 <HM2> gmaxwell: problem is i don't know my nicks
4706 2013-04-12 23:52:20 <Diapolo> edit src\leveldb\build_detect_platform to match used Boost version / open MinGW Shell / cd /c/Users/Diapolo/bitcoin.Qt/src/leveldb / TARGET_OS=NATIVE_WINDOWS make libleveldb.a libmemenv.a
4707 2013-04-12 23:52:20 <HM2> gmaxwell: there's no command for that either
4708 2013-04-12 23:52:27 <safra> is there any way i can get the funds without the password?
4709 2013-04-12 23:52:36 <sipa> safra: i would hope not!
4710 2013-04-12 23:52:41 lupine has joined
4711 2013-04-12 23:52:52 <sipa> safra: if there was, it wouldn't be safe, unfortunately
4712 2013-04-12 23:52:59 <sipa> also, isn't there a channel for litecoin?
4713 2013-04-12 23:53:01 <Diapolo> forget the boost stuff that is obsolete ^^
4714 2013-04-12 23:54:05 <wumpus> #litecoin-dev?
4715 2013-04-12 23:54:32 gfawkes has quit (Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~)
4716 2013-04-12 23:55:05 lupine has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
4717 2013-04-12 23:56:25 <diki> Diapolo:build_detect_platform has no references to boost
4718 2013-04-12 23:56:37 <sipa> not anymore
4719 2013-04-12 23:56:38 <sipa> it used to
4720 2013-04-12 23:56:41 <Diapolo> diki: as I said that was obsolete ^^
4721 2013-04-12 23:57:00 <Diapolo> "cd /c/Users/Diapolo/bitcoin.Qt/src/leveldb" and then "TARGET_OS=NATIVE_WINDOWS make libleveldb.a libmemenv.a"
4722 2013-04-12 23:57:39 <Diapolo> I had that reference in a readme I wrote for my local build and didn't update it ;)
4723 2013-04-12 23:58:11 Muis_ has joined