1 2013-04-14 00:00:09 bretolius has joined
   2 2013-04-14 00:00:10 <diki> I was looking at the source code to see how the merkletree is built, so in the BuildMerkleRoot function there is a foreach on this vMerkleTree.push_back(tx.GetHash()); so tx is of type CTransaction, so I went into CTransaction to see the function called GetHash, which passes the CTransaction class's instance to SerializeHash, which in turn initialize a CHashWriter with some integers and
   3 2013-04-14 00:00:10 <diki> writes the object to 'ss', and returns GetHash of ss, so I went into CHashWriter class and that is where I got lost with all this serialization business.
   4 2013-04-14 00:00:20 <diki> So how on earth is the merkle root built?
   5 2013-04-14 00:00:55 <sipa> diki: don't dig too deep
   6 2013-04-14 00:01:02 <sipa> diki: the code is there
   7 2013-04-14 00:01:02 <gruez> sipa: if you want to check my configs, you can always VNC
   8 2013-04-14 00:01:15 <gruez> it's a VM anyways
   9 2013-04-14 00:01:31 <sipa> diki: CHashWriter computes a double-SHA256 on-the-fly, based on whatever you serialize into it
  10 2013-04-14 00:01:33 viperhr1 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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  13 2013-04-14 00:02:23 <sipa> diki: but you're already too deep there
  14 2013-04-14 00:02:32 <diki> I just want to understand the process.
  15 2013-04-14 00:02:35 <sipa> diki: the merkle tree is just a tree of hashes
  16 2013-04-14 00:02:51 <sipa> tx.GetHash() returns the transaction id
  17 2013-04-14 00:03:07 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  18 2013-04-14 00:03:13 Phraust has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  19 2013-04-14 00:03:14 <sipa> the first N entries in vMerkleTree are the transaction hashes themself
  20 2013-04-14 00:03:32 <sipa> the next N/2 entries are the hashes of 2 subsequent hashes of the previous set
  21 2013-04-14 00:03:41 Phraust has joined
  22 2013-04-14 00:03:49 <sipa> the next N/4 entries are the hashes of 2 subsequent hashes of the set before it
  23 2013-04-14 00:03:52 <sipa> and so on
  24 2013-04-14 00:03:55 <sipa> until there is only one left
  25 2013-04-14 00:04:18 Wayward has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  26 2013-04-14 00:04:34 <sipa> gruez: oh i see
  27 2013-04-14 00:04:40 <sipa> you just miss the inputs directory
  28 2013-04-14 00:04:43 Anduck has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  29 2013-04-14 00:04:58 <gruez> sipa: so i create it in gitian-builder?
  30 2013-04-14 00:05:16 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  31 2013-04-14 00:05:19 <sipa> gruez: indeed
  32 2013-04-14 00:05:39 <sipa> i've updated my script to do that automatically
  33 2013-04-14 00:05:44 zrad has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  34 2013-04-14 00:05:48 i2pRelay has joined
  35 2013-04-14 00:05:50 <gruez> I got warning
  36 2013-04-14 00:05:54 <gruez> KVM not loaded
  37 2013-04-14 00:06:14 <gruez> ************* WARNING: kvm not loaded, this will probably not work out
  38 2013-04-14 00:06:21 blackreign has joined
  39 2013-04-14 00:06:34 vigilyn2 has joined
  40 2013-04-14 00:06:34 <sipa> gruez: try
  41 2013-04-14 00:06:37 <sipa> sudo modprobe kvm
  42 2013-04-14 00:06:42 vigilyn has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  43 2013-04-14 00:06:55 blackreign has left ()
  44 2013-04-14 00:07:23 <gruez> sipa: error log: http://pastie.org/pastes/7493276/text?key=tpwzfcvheghheq8bl78va
  45 2013-04-14 00:07:33 sydna has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
  46 2013-04-14 00:07:33 <gruez> I executed sudo modprobe kvm
  47 2013-04-14 00:07:37 [\\\] has joined
  48 2013-04-14 00:07:40 <gruez> it asked me for password
  49 2013-04-14 00:07:53 <gruez> after entering it, it immediately closed
  50 2013-04-14 00:08:33 <Luke-Jr> TD: any idea who/where I might be able to find out? :|
  51 2013-04-14 00:08:56 <gruez> I got the same error after executing the modprobe command
  52 2013-04-14 00:08:56 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  53 2013-04-14 00:09:39 <TD> the money is probably gone, sorry. you could ask on the xda-developers forum
  54 2013-04-14 00:10:21 <sipa> gruez: sounds like kvm isn't supported on your system
  55 2013-04-14 00:10:27 neo2 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
  56 2013-04-14 00:10:51 b4tt3r136 has joined
  57 2013-04-14 00:10:54 <joeykrim> Luke-Jr, ive asked in #nexus7. im prob agreeing with TD and am doubtful the n7 bootloader allows raw flash access
  58 2013-04-14 00:10:58 ltrottier has quit (Quit: ltrottier)
  59 2013-04-14 00:11:13 <Luke-Jr> joeykrim: it allows booting an arbitrary kernel/initrd..
  60 2013-04-14 00:11:27 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
  61 2013-04-14 00:11:45 <joeykrim> ive heard of fastboot commands for dumping partition images using developer bootloaders on htc devices .. but those dev bootloaders are usually leaked
  62 2013-04-14 00:12:03 <gruez> sipa: aww :(
  63 2013-04-14 00:12:16 rancor60_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  64 2013-04-14 00:12:32 canooon has joined
  65 2013-04-14 00:12:39 <sipa> gruez: what system is it?
  66 2013-04-14 00:13:06 <gruez> sipa: ubuntu 12.10 x64
  67 2013-04-14 00:13:11 PartTimeLegend has joined
  68 2013-04-14 00:13:16 <sipa> gruez: hardware, i mean
  69 2013-04-14 00:13:17 <gruez> on vmware workstation 9
  70 2013-04-14 00:13:20 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  71 2013-04-14 00:13:53 i2pRelay has joined
  72 2013-04-14 00:14:06 <gruez> come to think of it, is there a painless way to compile on ubuntu, without gitian?
  73 2013-04-14 00:14:17 <sipa> gruez: http://virtualbyte.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/image_thumb8.png
  74 2013-04-14 00:14:31 <sipa> gruez: compile for what?
  75 2013-04-14 00:14:44 <gruez> sipa: windows
  76 2013-04-14 00:14:50 <joeykrim> Luke-Jr, after booting, you can dd the /data partition .. not sure how data recovery works with that though
  77 2013-04-14 00:14:50 b4tt3r135 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  78 2013-04-14 00:15:07 <Luke-Jr> wouldn't the data in question be outside /data ?
  79 2013-04-14 00:15:54 <joeykrim> not sure .. last i checked the bootloader isnt open sourced so cant tell what function it uses to "wipe" the data partition
  80 2013-04-14 00:16:40 <sipa> gruez: you need to enable that VT-i in VMware
  81 2013-04-14 00:16:41 <joeykrim> i dont think the block addresses of the data partition change ...
  82 2013-04-14 00:16:55 noah has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  83 2013-04-14 00:17:05 <sipa> VT-x, whatever
  84 2013-04-14 00:17:14 Mad7Scientist has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  85 2013-04-14 00:17:31 <gruez> sipa: I enabled it
  86 2013-04-14 00:17:34 <gruez> retrying the build now
  87 2013-04-14 00:17:51 <sipa> what physical hardware are you on?
  88 2013-04-14 00:18:15 <gruez> sipa: amd phenom II quad
  89 2013-04-14 00:18:25 <gruez> I got an error while running
  90 2013-04-14 00:18:26 <gruez> http://pastie.org/private/k6mpwfuyioctzuh3wlp2bw
  91 2013-04-14 00:19:00 xenesis has joined
  92 2013-04-14 00:19:06 <sipa> gruez: try again
  93 2013-04-14 00:20:03 <gruez> sipa: it got stuck at "checking target if is up"
  94 2013-04-14 00:20:17 <gruez> is there a way to verify the vm is working correctly?
  95 2013-04-14 00:21:03 <joeykrim> Luke-Jr, i see a few mentions about image recovery software working .. idk if they could find the app data with the private keys :\
  96 2013-04-14 00:21:20 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  97 2013-04-14 00:21:33 GStone has joined
  98 2013-04-14 00:21:52 i2pRelay has joined
  99 2013-04-14 00:25:48 <Luke-Jr> TD: any idea what partition/device I should be looking at?
 100 2013-04-14 00:27:23 <joeykrim> Luke-Jr, mmcblk0p9 14103552 UDA data (user data area)
 101 2013-04-14 00:27:25 <TD> no clue sorry. i never rooted any of my devices
 102 2013-04-14 00:27:36 * TD -> bed
 103 2013-04-14 00:27:37 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
 104 2013-04-14 00:27:54 <joeykrim> ls -l /dev/block/platform/sdhci-tegra.3/by-name/
 105 2013-04-14 00:28:28 <joeykrim> /dev/block/mmcblk0p9
 106 2013-04-14 00:29:14 <joeykrim> ^ http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1739119
 107 2013-04-14 00:29:14 <sipa> gruez: still stuck>
 108 2013-04-14 00:29:21 <gruez> sipa: yes
 109 2013-04-14 00:29:23 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 110 2013-04-14 00:29:31 <gruez> is building on ubuntu eaiser than using gitain?
 111 2013-04-14 00:29:35 <gruez> *gitian
 112 2013-04-14 00:29:36 hsmiths has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 113 2013-04-14 00:29:53 hsmiths has joined
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 115 2013-04-14 00:30:35 <sipa> gruez: no, but certainly faster
 116 2013-04-14 00:31:33 <gruez> sipa: the virtual machine seems to be failing. is there a way to verify it's working?
 117 2013-04-14 00:31:50 t7 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 118 2013-04-14 00:31:56 systemParanoid has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 119 2013-04-14 00:32:24 systemParanoid has joined
 120 2013-04-14 00:32:40 <gruez> i tried running the sanity test but it just exits immediately with no message
 121 2013-04-14 00:33:21 Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 122 2013-04-14 00:33:46 <sipa> gruez: look at the raw readme
 123 2013-04-14 00:33:57 <sipa> gruez: github doesn't format the commands correctly
 124 2013-04-14 00:34:18 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
 125 2013-04-14 00:34:33 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 126 2013-04-14 00:34:44 celehner has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 127 2013-04-14 00:35:28 MaxValor has joined
 128 2013-04-14 00:35:46 <diki> sipa:But indulge me, is CHashWriter& operator<<(const T& obj) what also further gets called before the hashing business begins?
 129 2013-04-14 00:36:05 <gruez> sipa: I see the error
 130 2013-04-14 00:36:12 <gruez>  build@ubuntu:~/build/gitian-builder$ start-target 32 lucid-i386
 131 2013-04-14 00:36:15 <sipa> diki: depending on how you look at it, that operation is the hashing
 132 2013-04-14 00:36:16 <gruez> build@ubuntu:~/build/gitian-builder$ on-target ls -la
 133 2013-04-14 00:36:20 <gruez> ssh: connect to host localhost port 2223: Connection refused
 134 2013-04-14 00:36:29 <gruez> welp
 135 2013-04-14 00:36:50 <sipa> gruez: cat var/target.log
 136 2013-04-14 00:37:18 <gruez> build@ubuntu:~/build/gitian-builder$ cat var/target.log
 137 2013-04-14 00:37:22 <gruez> Failed to allocate 2097152000 B: Cannot allocate memory
 138 2013-04-14 00:37:26 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 139 2013-04-14 00:37:29 ColinT has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
 140 2013-04-14 00:37:35 <sipa> gruez: your VM has too little memory :)
 141 2013-04-14 00:37:41 <gruez> how much ram do I need?
 142 2013-04-14 00:37:47 <sipa> 2.something GB
 143 2013-04-14 00:37:50 <gruez> aww
 144 2013-04-14 00:37:54 <gruez> I only have 4 GB
 145 2013-04-14 00:37:59 i2pRelay has joined
 146 2013-04-14 00:38:25 <sipa> that's not a problem, it will likely not use all of it, so it doesn't all need to correspond to physical ram
 147 2013-04-14 00:38:33 <sipa> just try giving it 2.5 GB or so
 148 2013-04-14 00:38:47 celehner has joined
 149 2013-04-14 00:39:10 Davincij has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 150 2013-04-14 00:39:28 <gruez> sipa: will do
 151 2013-04-14 00:39:35 PartTimeLegend has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 152 2013-04-14 00:41:04 gruez has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 153 2013-04-14 00:43:59 Wayward- is now known as Wayward
 154 2013-04-14 00:44:01 gruez has joined
 155 2013-04-14 00:44:33 <gruez> sipa: I added more memory
 156 2013-04-14 00:44:35 <gruez> but it's stuck
 157 2013-04-14 00:44:48 <gruez> https://i.minus.com/ibps0PPQabkJcU.png
 158 2013-04-14 00:44:49 <sipa> what's in var/target.log ?
 159 2013-04-14 00:44:52 <gruez> it's been like this for a while now
 160 2013-04-14 00:44:59 <gruez> do I need a second command window?
 161 2013-04-14 00:45:28 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 162 2013-04-14 00:45:42 <sipa> ctrl-shift-t
 163 2013-04-14 00:45:59 i2pRelay has joined
 164 2013-04-14 00:46:56 <gruez> sipa:
 165 2013-04-14 00:46:56 <gruez> build@ubuntu:~/build/gitian-builder$ on-target ls -la
 166 2013-04-14 00:47:00 <gruez> No command 'on-target' found, did you mean:
 167 2013-04-14 00:47:04 Sliver has joined
 168 2013-04-14 00:47:04 <gruez>  Command 'in-target' from package 'ubiquity' (main)
 169 2013-04-14 00:47:08 <gruez> on-target: command not found
 170 2013-04-14 00:47:51 <sipa> gruez: you didn't execute the PATH=... command before
 171 2013-04-14 00:48:25 <gruez> sipa: d'oh :(
 172 2013-04-14 00:48:57 <gruez> sipa: everything is working fine now
 173 2013-04-14 00:49:01 <gruez> I will attempt the build
 174 2013-04-14 00:49:24 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 175 2013-04-14 00:49:35 <gruez> sipa: can you remind me what the command for the .sh file is?
 176 2013-04-14 00:49:44 <sipa> gruez: ?
 177 2013-04-14 00:50:26 stretchwarren has joined
 178 2013-04-14 00:50:39 <gruez> sipa:
 179 2013-04-14 00:50:41 <gruez> ./bitcoin-build.sh ???
 180 2013-04-14 00:50:44 <sipa> yes
 181 2013-04-14 00:50:47 <sipa> ah
 182 2013-04-14 00:50:48 <gruez> I'm supposed to put a tag
 183 2013-04-14 00:50:50 <gruez> right?
 184 2013-04-14 00:50:52 <sipa> ./bitcoin-build.sh v0.8.1
 185 2013-04-14 00:50:57 <gruez> ok
 186 2013-04-14 00:51:00 <gruez> will try now
 187 2013-04-14 00:51:22 <sipa> or ./bitcoin-build.sh 34d62a8
 188 2013-04-14 00:51:26 <sipa> (the commit id)
 189 2013-04-14 00:51:37 <sipa> i think even ./bitcoin-build.sh master will work
 190 2013-04-14 00:51:38 coolsa has joined
 191 2013-04-14 00:51:58 <diki> sipa:Is there some implementation other than the reference client where we can see how the genesis block's merkle hash is made?
 192 2013-04-14 00:52:01 <gruez> sipa: aww
 193 2013-04-14 00:52:02 <gruez> inputs/miniupnpc-1.6.tar.gz: No such file or directory
 194 2013-04-14 00:52:11 <sipa> gruez: you'll need the dependencies
 195 2013-04-14 00:52:24 ubias has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 196 2013-04-14 00:52:37 <gruez> sipa: where do I grab them?
 197 2013-04-14 00:52:41 <Luke-Jr> hmm
 198 2013-04-14 00:52:49 <Luke-Jr> anyone know the format of Bitcoin Wallet's private key store?
 199 2013-04-14 00:52:59 <sipa> diki: it's just the hash of the coinbase in that case
 200 2013-04-14 00:53:30 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 201 2013-04-14 00:53:40 <sipa> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/1110/how-do-i-implement-a-merkle-tree
 202 2013-04-14 00:53:56 <gruez> nvm I'll read the release-process.txt
 203 2013-04-14 00:54:07 i2pRelay has joined
 204 2013-04-14 00:54:36 sharperguy has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 205 2013-04-14 00:54:43 <Wayward> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/
 206 2013-04-14 00:54:48 <sipa> gruez: you can stop as soon as you reach the gbuild commands
 207 2013-04-14 00:54:53 <Wayward> How long before we reach the difficulty ceiling?
 208 2013-04-14 00:55:04 <sipa> Wayward: "ceiling" ?
 209 2013-04-14 00:55:15 <Wayward> the point at which the difficulty is the highest it can get
 210 2013-04-14 00:55:16 <sipa> Wayward: do you mean how long until i need to adjust my graphs?
 211 2013-04-14 00:55:23 <Wayward> heh
 212 2013-04-14 00:55:28 <diki> I guess that's why a tutorial on genesis block making was never made :P
 213 2013-04-14 00:55:40 <diki> so that those who don't understand don't even try
 214 2013-04-14 00:55:50 <median^> sipa: are there more parameters for your graphs other than -large ?
 215 2013-04-14 00:55:51 knotwork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 216 2013-04-14 00:56:16 <sipa> Wayward: the maximum possible difficulty is about 3851362184430187070450925192103427333715842676939166298019681 times higher than it is now
 217 2013-04-14 00:56:26 <sipa> ;;diff
 218 2013-04-14 00:56:27 <gribble> 7672999.920164138
 219 2013-04-14 00:56:36 <median^> ;;eta
 220 2013-04-14 00:56:37 <gribble> Error: "eta" is not a valid command.
 221 2013-04-14 00:56:41 <Wayward> that's a real number?
 222 2013-04-14 00:56:43 graingert is now known as grain
 223 2013-04-14 00:56:45 freeroute has quit (Quit: $quitmsg)
 224 2013-04-14 00:56:51 <sipa> sorry, more like 3513558656525386879241843181609077050514024773983953474065146
 225 2013-04-14 00:56:54 <sipa> Wayward: yes
 226 2013-04-14 00:57:24 <Wayward> So, sometime before 2040?
 227 2013-04-14 00:57:28 <sipa> lol
 228 2013-04-14 00:57:31 <Wayward> :)
 229 2013-04-14 00:57:46 <sipa> diki: there's nothing hard about the genesis block
 230 2013-04-14 00:57:53 <median^> well the eta is 306612 sec (3.5 days)
 231 2013-04-14 00:58:01 <sipa> diki: you're simply not understanding the merkle tree
 232 2013-04-14 00:58:40 <diki> well if it was simply sha256 without this seralisation, I would..probably.
 233 2013-04-14 00:59:00 <sipa> it is simply sha256
 234 2013-04-14 00:59:08 <sipa> well, double sha256
 235 2013-04-14 00:59:15 <diki> then why all the serialisation?
 236 2013-04-14 00:59:34 <sipa> because you can't take the hash of a transaction, you need to turn it into bytes first
 237 2013-04-14 00:59:58 <sipa> CHashWriter is just a really efficient interface to compute it on the fly
 238 2013-04-14 01:00:05 <diki> like from hex to binary/
 239 2013-04-14 01:00:11 <sipa> no, that's encoding
 240 2013-04-14 01:00:32 <gruez> sipa: one of the depenencies is missing
 241 2013-04-14 01:00:32 <gruez> http://pastie.org/private/totkj5kapjwjd1j9ayyxa
 242 2013-04-14 01:00:41 <sipa> a transaction is some abstract structure with things like a version number, and one or more inputs, and one or more outputs and bunch of other stuff
 243 2013-04-14 01:00:53 <sipa> you need to turn that transaction somehow into a sequence of bytes
 244 2013-04-14 01:01:02 <sipa> you can represent those bytes then as a hash string
 245 2013-04-14 01:01:10 <sipa> or calculate a hash of it
 246 2013-04-14 01:01:14 <sipa> or calculate a length of it
 247 2013-04-14 01:01:28 <diki> How is my unerstanding of bytes different to binary?
 248 2013-04-14 01:01:31 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 249 2013-04-14 01:01:35 <sipa> diki: you're overcomplicating... you already see serialized transactions all the time
 250 2013-04-14 01:01:47 Transisto has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 251 2013-04-14 01:01:51 <sipa> diki: they are stored on disk as bytes, and sent over the network as bytes
 252 2013-04-14 01:02:10 <sipa> serializing is turning the parsed datastructure into those bytes; deserializing is parsing it
 253 2013-04-14 01:02:22 i2pRelay has joined
 254 2013-04-14 01:02:39 Transisto has joined
 255 2013-04-14 01:02:40 Transisto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 256 2013-04-14 01:02:49 <sipa> gruez: then go look for it
 257 2013-04-14 01:03:13 Haifisch has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 258 2013-04-14 01:03:20 <sipa> gruez: it may have moved
 259 2013-04-14 01:03:38 Transisto has joined
 260 2013-04-14 01:05:37 <gruez> sipa: ok
 261 2013-04-14 01:05:44 <gruez> will get back to you after the dl is finished
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 271 2013-04-14 01:10:27 <diki> sipa:My understanding of bytes would be how the hexadecimal byte 00 is 0 in binary, i.e a byte.
 272 2013-04-14 01:11:07 <sipa> yes
 273 2013-04-14 01:11:41 <CodeShark> bits are too small a unit to be reasonable for us to work with directly in our notation and in our data structures :)
 274 2013-04-14 01:11:53 <CodeShark> so we use hex and bytes
 275 2013-04-14 01:12:20 <sipa> diki: so hex is a way of representing a sequence of bytes, or an encoding
 276 2013-04-14 01:12:27 wallet421 has joined
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 278 2013-04-14 01:12:37 <sipa> diki: serialization is the act of turning a complex datastructure into a sequence of bytes
 279 2013-04-14 01:12:56 <diki> so basically this piece of code http://pastebin.com/J5KsVXjm is converted to bytes and then hashed?
 280 2013-04-14 01:13:07 <diki> err the data I mean
 281 2013-04-14 01:13:16 <sipa> yes
 282 2013-04-14 01:13:30 <sipa> you first build the datastructure, then turn it into bytes, then hash it
 283 2013-04-14 01:13:37 yamamushi has joined
 284 2013-04-14 01:13:43 <sipa> but the turning-into-bytes and hashing happens simultaneously
 285 2013-04-14 01:13:50 <sipa> (that's what CHashWriter does)
 286 2013-04-14 01:13:57 <sipa> so it doesn't require temporary storage
 287 2013-04-14 01:14:20 wallet42 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 288 2013-04-14 01:14:54 <diki> So why did you tell me:
 289 2013-04-14 01:14:54 <diki> [03:37:57] <diki> like from hex to binary/
 290 2013-04-14 01:14:54 <diki> [03:38:03] <sipa> no, that's encoding
 291 2013-04-14 01:15:12 <sipa> diki: because serialization isn't the same as encoding
 292 2013-04-14 01:16:13 <CodeShark> hex is just a way to represent binary data in a form that is relatively compact, so humans can work with it
 293 2013-04-14 01:16:32 ColinT has joined
 294 2013-04-14 01:16:32 <CodeShark> that's the only reason hex is used in computer science, really :)
 295 2013-04-14 01:16:52 <gonffen> hex is just a base-16 numerical system
 296 2013-04-14 01:17:05 <CodeShark> it's far easier to convert from hex to binary than from decimal to binary
 297 2013-04-14 01:17:24 <sipa> or base58, for that matter :D
 298 2013-04-14 01:17:36 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 299 2013-04-14 01:17:58 <median^> diki: do you read javascript?
 300 2013-04-14 01:18:00 franl has joined
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 303 2013-04-14 01:18:05 <diki> median^:no?
 304 2013-04-14 01:18:27 grain has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat-GNOME)
 305 2013-04-14 01:18:49 <diki> sipa:So this serialization does not care for the type of the data, it simply converts to bytes?
 306 2013-04-14 01:19:05 <gonffen> CodeShark: which is incredibly silly because dividing by 2 is also really easy
 307 2013-04-14 01:19:29 <CodeShark> it's dividing by 5 that's hard
 308 2013-04-14 01:19:33 aspect_ has joined
 309 2013-04-14 01:19:37 <sipa> diki: that's what serialization means: converting to bytes
 310 2013-04-14 01:19:57 <gonffen> ugh division by 5
 311 2013-04-14 01:20:08 <gonffen> only better than division by pi
 312 2013-04-14 01:20:29 <gmaxwell> dividing by any constant is easy.
 313 2013-04-14 01:20:38 <gmaxwell> (assuming you're talking about integer division)
 314 2013-04-14 01:20:54 <CodeShark> gmaxwell, it takes far more CPU cycles in a typical computer to divide by 5 than to divide by 2
 315 2013-04-14 01:21:01 <gmaxwell> Not by a constant.
 316 2013-04-14 01:21:06 duckybsd has joined
 317 2013-04-14 01:21:25 * sipa very experienced at dividing by wau
 318 2013-04-14 01:21:37 <CodeShark> isn't the right shift operator much faster than the div operator?
 319 2013-04-14 01:21:46 <CodeShark> in practically any architecture?
 320 2013-04-14 01:21:47 <sipa> CodeShark: yes, but only by a constant :)
 321 2013-04-14 01:22:02 <CodeShark> I'm not taking about big-O
 322 2013-04-14 01:22:07 <CodeShark> :p
 323 2013-04-14 01:22:21 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: what nutcase would use the 'div' operator for a constant division!?  (and heck, some microarches don't even have one)
 324 2013-04-14 01:23:28 <CodeShark> anyhow, point is, dividing by 5 is not as straightforward and requires a more complicated implementation than dividing by 2 on a digital computer
 325 2013-04-14 01:23:41 <gmaxwell> It doesn't.
 326 2013-04-14 01:23:47 <CodeShark> I'm not saying it's HARD - as in NP-hard
 327 2013-04-14 01:24:10 <CodeShark> I'm saying that it would be very inconvenient to have to be doing this everytime we want to convert from our notation to binary
 328 2013-04-14 01:24:16 <gmaxwell> Integer division by a constant has the same throughput as shifts on x86.
 329 2013-04-14 01:24:36 <gmaxwell> (and ~anything else, or no worse than half the speed)
 330 2013-04-14 01:25:12 canooon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 331 2013-04-14 01:25:38 <CodeShark> heck, division by 2 in hex I can easily do in my head
 332 2013-04-14 01:25:40 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 333 2013-04-14 01:26:12 i2pRelay has joined
 334 2013-04-14 01:26:44 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: two instructions, http://pastebin.com/9Rt2Rh1y
 335 2013-04-14 01:26:45 <CodeShark> division by 5 I might need to write some stuff out
 336 2013-04-14 01:26:51 median^ has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 337 2013-04-14 01:27:03 <gmaxwell> and yea, sure its harder in your head. no harder for the computer.
 338 2013-04-14 01:28:04 <CodeShark> I'm talking about the convenience of hex as a notational system when analyzing binary data
 339 2013-04-14 01:28:11 dvide has quit ()
 340 2013-04-14 01:28:34 <CodeShark> I'm well aware that a computer can convert any base to any other base in less time than it takes me to even think about doing it
 341 2013-04-14 01:28:49 b4tt3r135 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 342 2013-04-14 01:28:57 ColinT has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
 343 2013-04-14 01:29:13 <sipa> CodeShark: step up your game!
 344 2013-04-14 01:29:20 <CodeShark> lol
 345 2013-04-14 01:29:35 <jolar> CodeShark: it sounds like you are arguing that n/5 ends up being more instructions than n/2
 346 2013-04-14 01:29:45 <CodeShark> no, not more instructinos
 347 2013-04-14 01:29:51 <CodeShark> just more CPU cycles
 348 2013-04-14 01:29:56 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: well then I misunderstood the discussion, when I flipped into the channel I saw you saying that it was much slower for a computer to divide by 5. Thats all I was responding to.
 349 2013-04-14 01:30:43 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: its not more cpu cycles. It's a shift and multiply, and on x86 if you're doing more than one they fully pipeline and you get the same throughput as shifting.
 350 2013-04-14 01:30:44 <CodeShark> jolar: some microprocessors don't have a divide instruction - assuming it does have a divide instruction, it generally takes more CPU cycles than a right shift
 351 2013-04-14 01:30:59 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: YOU DO NOT USE A DIVIDE INSTRUCTION FOR DIVISIONS BY A CONSTANT! :P
 352 2013-04-14 01:31:27 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
 353 2013-04-14 01:31:29 <jolar> I let my compiler worry about these things for me :)
 354 2013-04-14 01:31:36 dvide has joined
 355 2013-04-14 01:31:36 <gmaxwell> (because it's insanely slow anywhere it exists, except perhaps on some psycho gpus that do all operations in the same time for pipelining reasons)
 356 2013-04-14 01:31:37 <CodeShark> yeah, most of us do, jolar
 357 2013-04-14 01:31:56 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: yes, and the compiler replaces divisions by a constant with a multiply. :P
 358 2013-04-14 01:32:00 <CodeShark> anyhow, I think my point still holds
 359 2013-04-14 01:32:04 <gmaxwell> As I demonstrated (see the pastebin)
 360 2013-04-14 01:32:25 <CodeShark> even if you implement it avoiding division operations it's more CPU cycles
 361 2013-04-14 01:32:26 ltrottier has joined
 362 2013-04-14 01:33:04 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: It has the same throughput on x86 and probably anything superscalar.
 363 2013-04-14 01:33:39 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 364 2013-04-14 01:33:57 <CodeShark> http://www.agner.org/optimize/instruction_tables.pdf
 365 2013-04-14 01:34:18 i2pRelay has joined
 366 2013-04-14 01:34:20 * jgarzik scrolls back
 367 2013-04-14 01:34:30 [NS] has quit (Excess Flood)
 368 2013-04-14 01:34:32 <jgarzik> my kind of discussion :)  "$this instruction or $that instruction?"  :)
 369 2013-04-14 01:34:40 <jgarzik> sounds like $work
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 377 2013-04-14 01:38:09 frac has joined
 378 2013-04-14 01:38:34 <gonffen> [6~
 379 2013-04-14 01:38:53 <frac> hello ive recieved this runaway exception from bitcoin-q
 380 2013-04-14 01:39:02 <gonffen> heh and I was just making a joke about converting between arbitrary bases by hand :S
 381 2013-04-14 01:39:06 <frac> EXCEPTION: 13leveldb_error        Database corrupted        bitcoin in Runaway exception
 382 2013-04-14 01:39:33 <gonffen> Interesting conversation though. I need to learn x86 one of these days...
 383 2013-04-14 01:39:35 median^ has joined
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 385 2013-04-14 01:42:15 i2pRelay has joined
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 387 2013-04-14 01:46:01 <myirc> learning asm etc is probably not a very good investment in time these days
 388 2013-04-14 01:46:51 <gonffen> it's still part of a formal CS education
 389 2013-04-14 01:46:52 <jgarzik> It's an age thing.  You learn asm at age <= 20, before you are wise enough to know it's a poor time investment and a waste of energy
 390 2013-04-14 01:47:10 <jolar> hahaha
 391 2013-04-14 01:47:19 jaequery has joined
 392 2013-04-14 01:47:24 <gonffen> I know enough MIPS and can do ARM (mainly cause it's so similar) if I need too
 393 2013-04-14 01:47:31 <jolar> i wish i'd learned asm at age < 20
 394 2013-04-14 01:47:32 Davincij has joined
 395 2013-04-14 01:47:33 <gonffen> but x86? just throw it all out the window
 396 2013-04-14 01:47:51 <jolar> it would have made learning c easier i think
 397 2013-04-14 01:47:58 <jgarzik> if you know mips, you know arm/powerpc/...
 398 2013-04-14 01:47:59 <sipa> gonffen: i never learnt asm, except for a stupid demo _decimal_ machine
 399 2013-04-14 01:48:06 <sipa> which they actually had a simulator for
 400 2013-04-14 01:48:12 <jgarzik> SPIM
 401 2013-04-14 01:48:15 <jgarzik> the MIPS simulator
 402 2013-04-14 01:48:18 <gonffen> SPIM is awful
 403 2013-04-14 01:48:21 <jgarzik> ;p
 404 2013-04-14 01:48:24 <gmaxwell> jolar: I dunno about that. Assuming you know how C works under the hood generally results in you writing C code which is invalid and then the compiler does you in while you sleep.
 405 2013-04-14 01:48:27 <gonffen> MARS is so much better
 406 2013-04-14 01:48:34 <gonffen> and I'm not good with MIPS haha
 407 2013-04-14 01:48:39 <gonffen> but ya, I took a course where I had to do ARM
 408 2013-04-14 01:48:39 <jgarzik> gatech.edu + SPIM, here
 409 2013-04-14 01:49:12 <gonffen> it was open book exams so I just forced myself through it with the instruction set lists
 410 2013-04-14 01:49:17 <jolar> gmaxwell: i don't think i can ever out-do the compiler - i meant for understanding how the computer actually works
 411 2013-04-14 01:49:34 <jolar> i think you can be a successful, say, java developer, without knowing how a computer works
 412 2013-04-14 01:49:40 <gmaxwell> I learned x86 assembly because it was the only way to write DOS TSRs and then did a bunch on Z80 for a company that made speech synthesizers and other tools for the blind— and all that was ASM because we didn't have much rom free.
 413 2013-04-14 01:49:48 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 414 2013-04-14 01:49:55 <jgarzik> When I learn x86, it's purely for fun ;p  https://git.kernel.org/cgit/devel/sparse/chrisl/sparse.git/tree/compile-i386.c
 415 2013-04-14 01:50:15 i2pRelay has joined
 416 2013-04-14 01:50:18 <jolar> Z80, that's what's in the ti-83+
 417 2013-04-14 01:50:24 <gonffen> ya that's really my thoughts jgarzik
 418 2013-04-14 01:50:25 <jolar> or used to be, back when i was a kid
 419 2013-04-14 01:50:51 <HM2> there was a recent article from a group that analysed common linux packages and looked at the use of asm
 420 2013-04-14 01:50:55 tvbcof has left ("WeeChat 0.4.0")
 421 2013-04-14 01:50:55 <gmaxwell> jolar: I didn't say anything about outdoing. People assume that they know what kind of code the compiler will write, and then they write code which violates C's rules. E.g. they'll have an array of floats and then cast it to int and start manipulating it.. because they have a mental model of pointers that permits that— even though the C standard does not.
 422 2013-04-14 01:50:59 <gonffen> the ti-83 is exactly the same as it has always been
 423 2013-04-14 01:51:06 andyh2 has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
 424 2013-04-14 01:51:12 Davincij15 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 425 2013-04-14 01:51:28 <jolar> gmaxwell: ah, i see what you are saying
 426 2013-04-14 01:52:16 <gonffen> it still blows my mind that Rollercoaster Tycoon was written in x86
 427 2013-04-14 01:52:24 <jolar> no way
 428 2013-04-14 01:52:36 <sipa> gonffen: it was? :o
 429 2013-04-14 01:53:03 ByronJohnson has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 430 2013-04-14 01:53:13 <jgarzik> almost every remotely significant "written in asm" project is heavily macro'd and function'd and modularized, so reinventing a low level almost-C
 431 2013-04-14 01:53:42 Garr255 has joined
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 433 2013-04-14 01:53:42 Garr255 has joined
 434 2013-04-14 01:53:42 <gonffen> sipa: let me double check
 435 2013-04-14 01:53:48 <gonffen> but I've heard this before
 436 2013-04-14 01:54:44 Mad7Scientist has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 437 2013-04-14 01:54:48 <sipa> jgarzik: part of the x86_64 assembly in openssl is quite interesting: it's bunch of macros and functions, which expands to code that does the actual operations in inline assembly, but lets the compiler do register layouting
 438 2013-04-14 01:54:58 <gonffen> http://www.chrissawyergames.com/faq3.htm
 439 2013-04-14 01:55:25 <jgarzik> yeah, it's a nice trick
 440 2013-04-14 01:55:46 <jgarzik> basic assembly can be more stupid than letting a smart, register-and-pipeline-aware compiler handle those details.
 441 2013-04-14 01:57:12 <HM2> incidentally, gcc got an intrinsic for *runtime* cpu detection in 4.8
 442 2013-04-14 01:57:19 nova907767 has joined
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 444 2013-04-14 01:57:52 <sipa> HM2: seems not to be the task of the compiler, imho
 445 2013-04-14 01:57:59 <HM2> i think there are __attributes that can hotswitch out functions depending on your cpu now as well
 446 2013-04-14 01:58:01 <muhoo> the only time i've had to deal with asm is __inline__ stuff on Atmel AVR
 447 2013-04-14 01:58:09 Mad7Scientist has joined
 448 2013-04-14 01:58:19 <jgarzik> sipa: in some cases it can be compiled into a static evaluation
 449 2013-04-14 01:58:20 i2pRelay has joined
 450 2013-04-14 01:58:26 <jgarzik> plus, everybody reinvents cpu-detection
 451 2013-04-14 01:58:31 <jgarzik> poorly
 452 2013-04-14 01:58:40 <gmaxwell> HM2: only works for C++ though, because it uses the same dynamic dispatch stuff used in the linker for overriding or something.
 453 2013-04-14 01:58:55 ByronJohnson has joined
 454 2013-04-14 01:58:55 <sipa> right, but it belongs more in glibc or so
 455 2013-04-14 01:58:56 <sipa> imho
 456 2013-04-14 01:58:59 <sipa> ah, that's something else
 457 2013-04-14 01:59:20 dparrish has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 458 2013-04-14 01:59:25 <HM2> gmaxwell: don't think so
 459 2013-04-14 01:59:33 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 460 2013-04-14 01:59:34 <HM2> it's linker specific sure, but not c++ specific
 461 2013-04-14 02:00:06 dparrish has joined
 462 2013-04-14 02:00:07 <HM2> oh it is c++ only
 463 2013-04-14 02:00:11 <HM2> weird
 464 2013-04-14 02:00:13 nova90 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 465 2013-04-14 02:00:28 * HM2 tips his hat to gmaxwells grip on current affairs
 466 2013-04-14 02:01:42 <gmaxwell> I work on a bunch of codec code. Where we really do get enormous gains from handcrafted simd asm, and where we have to carefully design things which can be executed quickly. This stuff matters to me.
 467 2013-04-14 02:01:56 jaequery has joined
 468 2013-04-14 02:01:57 <myirc> yea i learned asm to do keyboard hooks and such in video games.. and modex inline assembly.. then it was reinforced in CS classes at some point.. but don't think thats a good skill these days..
 469 2013-04-14 02:02:21 jtimon has joined
 470 2013-04-14 02:02:32 <jgarzik> There are also what I would call partial compiler intrinsics.  The compiler will optimize certain function calls (such as a 4-byte memcpy), while emitting a normal function call in all other cases.  Thus the compiler and glibc both play a role, depending on the usage of the function.
 471 2013-04-14 02:02:47 dbe has joined
 472 2013-04-14 02:02:48 <myirc> i mean, it is a good skill, but not a good skill to invest time learning ... CS is so hhuuge these days...
 473 2013-04-14 02:03:04 <HM2> it's always a good skill to understand how language features are structured in machine code
 474 2013-04-14 02:03:11 dbe is now known as Guest93255
 475 2013-04-14 02:03:30 <jgarzik> A lot of the str*() and mem*() can be algebraically reduced and/or otherwise optimized by the compiler, but not all cases, especially if you disable strict pointer analysis.
 476 2013-04-14 02:03:57 <myirc> yea, but skills cost time to learn ...  and time is money, etc...  nothing bad about learning asm, I just wouldn't think it would be useful to many people these days.. everything has went to highlevel
 477 2013-04-14 02:04:04 gp5st has joined
 478 2013-04-14 02:04:10 <gonffen> I don't think it's a worthwhile skill to hone
 479 2013-04-14 02:04:36 <gonffen> but I think any good computer scientist should be able to look at a block of assembly and be able to follow it
 480 2013-04-14 02:04:47 <gonffen> because hey, compilers fuck up once in a while
 481 2013-04-14 02:04:54 * copumpkin hands gonffen the disassembly of the fairplay code in the iOS kernel
 482 2013-04-14 02:05:00 <HM2> x86 asm is pretty gruelling these days though
 483 2013-04-14 02:05:19 Faradayy has joined
 484 2013-04-14 02:05:27 kakobrekla has joined
 485 2013-04-14 02:05:34 <myirc> it is a good idae to understand basic machine code/assembly... or some subset... but I can't remember last time I used an opcode level debugger..  20 years ago, it was totally different.. but I also don't deal with game programming anymore
 486 2013-04-14 02:05:49 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 487 2013-04-14 02:05:59 <gp5st> us over at #p2p-exchange are looking to start a discussion about building (and to start building) a p2p-based exchange to compliment the p2p nature of bitcoin.  Feel free to join us!
 488 2013-04-14 02:06:22 i2pRelay has joined
 489 2013-04-14 02:06:45 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 490 2013-04-14 02:07:13 <gmaxwell> HM2: sure, but best to do that by reading the compiler output rather than assuming from what you'd write. ... though the compiler does a lot of surprising things.
 491 2013-04-14 02:07:45 <MC1984> gp5st do you have even a system concept yet?
 492 2013-04-14 02:07:59 <kakobrekla> over 1h since last block, everything alright with the network?
 493 2013-04-14 02:08:20 <HM2>  it's always satisfying when GCC boils down about 10 layers of c++ templates to tiny inline code
 494 2013-04-14 02:08:26 <sipa> kakobrekla:
 495 2013-04-14 02:08:31 <sipa> ;;bc,tblb 1h
 496 2013-04-14 02:08:32 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
 497 2013-04-14 02:08:40 <sipa> ;;tblb 1h
 498 2013-04-14 02:08:41 <gribble> Error: "tblb" is not a valid command.
 499 2013-04-14 02:08:52 <sipa> grrr
 500 2013-04-14 02:09:02 <sipa> /me pokes nanotube
 501 2013-04-14 02:09:02 <HM2> you can have half a dozen intermediate objects, and if the constructors are inline you often find they all vanish in to the stack
 502 2013-04-14 02:09:14 <gmaxwell> ;;bc,tblb 60m
 503 2013-04-14 02:09:16 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
 504 2013-04-14 02:09:21 <gmaxwell> kakobrekla: thats normal and expected.
 505 2013-04-14 02:09:37 <kakobrekla> i know we can have big deviation, just checkin
 506 2013-04-14 02:09:53 stretchwarren has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 507 2013-04-14 02:10:17 <jgarzik> kakobrekla: In the secret mining cabal channel, everybody agreed to stop mining for two (2) hours.  So, you will see a block after that long.
 508 2013-04-14 02:10:26 <jolar> haha
 509 2013-04-14 02:10:32 <gp5st> MC1984: We have a couple ideas.  We're working out exactly what we mean and expect right now
 510 2013-04-14 02:10:56 <gonffen> lol jgarzik
 511 2013-04-14 02:11:12 <jgarzik> gp5st: sounds like Ripple
 512 2013-04-14 02:11:27 <jolar> i was reading about ripple last night
 513 2013-04-14 02:11:30 <kakobrekla> seriously we have seen things get broken before dunno why that tone
 514 2013-04-14 02:11:44 <warren> jgarzik: i took a quick glance at their design two days ago, it seems to have the same problem of trusting issuers
 515 2013-04-14 02:11:50 <gp5st> jgarzik: we looked at ripple, but it feels fishy (to me)
 516 2013-04-14 02:12:02 stretchwarren has joined
 517 2013-04-14 02:12:02 <jgarzik> OpenCoin != pure ripple concept
 518 2013-04-14 02:12:18 <gp5st> i don't like the way there is a central foundation control 80% of the currency
 519 2013-04-14 02:12:30 <HM2>  amiller was teaching me about ripple last night. he's enthusiastic, but I am a cynic
 520 2013-04-14 02:12:41 <gp5st> and i'm still readin through their wiki but not finding all the answers i want to how it works
 521 2013-04-14 02:13:00 <jolar> gp5st: they have code on github
 522 2013-04-14 02:13:06 <warren> gp5st: aside from the premine, folks here seemed to be skeptical of ripple's trade being reliant upon trust of issuers
 523 2013-04-14 02:13:33 kakobrekla has left ()
 524 2013-04-14 02:13:43 <gmaxwell> as jgarzik says, OpenCoin != pure ripple concept
 525 2013-04-14 02:13:48 <gp5st> jolar: i wanted to read what they had written before diving into the code. to get some background
 526 2013-04-14 02:13:50 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 527 2013-04-14 02:13:56 <gmaxwell> The ripple concept is interesting even if the opencoin implementation of it is deeply problematic.
 528 2013-04-14 02:14:05 <amiller> to be clear, their *client* code is on their github but the server is still hidden
 529 2013-04-14 02:14:07 <gp5st> warren: yes, math and protocol over trust:)
 530 2013-04-14 02:14:22 i2pRelay has joined
 531 2013-04-14 02:14:44 <warren> gp5st: call it whatever you want, issuer/exchange/broker, you still have to trust them to be honest, never make a mistake and never be hacked.  How do you plan on making gateways that don't require trust of an entity?
 532 2013-04-14 02:14:45 <amiller> their api is actually surprisingly thorough and has all the features, more so than just the js client, it's only the underlying voting engine that makes no sense
 533 2013-04-14 02:16:01 <amiller> warren the point of "concept ripple" is to let you make better use of the people you trust, when it so happens that you trust them
 534 2013-04-14 02:16:24 <gmaxwell> amiller: I giggle. "it's only the underlying voting engine that makes no sense"
 535 2013-04-14 02:16:32 <warren> amiller: I'm aware of that theory, skeptical that people would actually use it that way
 536 2013-04-14 02:16:35 <HM2> it's still centralised though isn't it, without a blockchain
 537 2013-04-14 02:16:59 <amiller> warren if you're skeptical whether these trusted people exist, the overwhelming eivdence is that they do!
 538 2013-04-14 02:17:01 <gp5st> warren: going from fiat to digital will require trust. once we're in the ditigal realm we want math and protocol to reign
 539 2013-04-14 02:17:25 <sipa> i've always liked the (original) ripple concept, but only on a small scale
 540 2013-04-14 02:17:33 <amiller> it's hard to find them outside the ripple mailing list but some of the people using classic (centralized) ripple have become very effective at being local banking nodes
 541 2013-04-14 02:18:00 <sipa> people do trust people in reality, and there's no reason to make the system less efficiently because of lack of trust there
 542 2013-04-14 02:18:14 <sipa> but after a few degrees, it breaks down, imho
 543 2013-04-14 02:18:38 <gmaxwell> "systemic risk"
 544 2013-04-14 02:18:54 <warren> amiller: what happens when trust is broken?  (someone who issued gets hit by a bus)
 545 2013-04-14 02:19:23 <gmaxwell> of course, if you just assume that because of the systemic risk all paths will be short—  then there are some pretty simple implementations possible.
 546 2013-04-14 02:19:30 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
 547 2013-04-14 02:19:51 <amiller> you mean simple centralized implementations?
 548 2013-04-14 02:19:56 <HM2> the problem i have is i trust people on a case by case basis when i lend, not on a friend by friend basis
 549 2013-04-14 02:19:58 <gmaxwell> e.g. just pure API for doing token trades with advertised token banks, and tools for picking a big list of token type's you'll accept
 550 2013-04-14 02:20:10 <amiller> if so, then yeah, the classic ripplepay worked fine at doing this for 6 years or so
 551 2013-04-14 02:21:11 <CodeShark> on a big scale, for something like ripple to work you need big institutions you trust - not just friends and individuals
 552 2013-04-14 02:21:22 <warren> gp5st: how do you have a distributed, trustless digital gateway? Is that design written anywhere?
 553 2013-04-14 02:21:22 <amiller> that's true, big banks will still exist
 554 2013-04-14 02:21:25 <CodeShark> institutions that can survive one of its members getting hit by a bus
 555 2013-04-14 02:21:31 * warren not sure it's possible?
 556 2013-04-14 02:21:33 <amiller> but they'll have to compete with smaller minibanks, for which "ripple" lowers the barrier to entry
 557 2013-04-14 02:21:45 <HM2> what about big mutual banks?
 558 2013-04-14 02:21:53 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 559 2013-04-14 02:21:58 <amiller> there's no reason only the big banks should be the only ones with well functioning transaction systems to keep track of their issueances
 560 2013-04-14 02:22:01 <gp5st> warren: the fiat-digital bridge will require trust
 561 2013-04-14 02:22:12 <sipa> can we please qualify each reference to ripple as either the original concept, or the new thing
 562 2013-04-14 02:22:24 i2pRelay has joined
 563 2013-04-14 02:22:24 <warren> gp5st: how do you get digital in the system without a trusted gateway?
 564 2013-04-14 02:22:29 <amiller> technically they bought the trademark
 565 2013-04-14 02:22:35 <vazakl> ahoy
 566 2013-04-14 02:22:37 <amiller> so we relaly have to go all the way away from ripple :(
 567 2013-04-14 02:22:46 <amiller> "credit networks" is the generic term?
 568 2013-04-14 02:22:53 <gp5st> warren: can you clarify the question?
 569 2013-04-14 02:23:28 <amiller> warren: what if you think of this as being tools to lower the barrier-to-entry for smaller trusted gateways?
 570 2013-04-14 02:23:31 jgarzik has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 571 2013-04-14 02:23:31 <vazakl> amiller: greetings. remember the ZKP anonymity stuff we were talking about a few months ago.. someone has come up with a solution - zerocoin
 572 2013-04-14 02:23:59 <warren> gp5st: I have 10 LTC.  I want to deposit it in <whatever> and trade then withdraw BTC.  What is <whatever>?
 573 2013-04-14 02:24:23 ColinT has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
 574 2013-04-14 02:24:54 <CodeShark> btc-e? vircurex?
 575 2013-04-14 02:24:59 <CodeShark> :p
 576 2013-04-14 02:25:09 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 577 2013-04-14 02:25:45 <gp5st> warren: i'm not sure what <whatever> represent. the idea so far is that the platform would act as a middle-man/escrow to show the transfer of ltc and btc in the proper amounts in the proper accounts before both parties can access the final accounts
 578 2013-04-14 02:25:53 <HM2> vircurex sounds like something you go to the doctors for after a dodgy one night stand
 579 2013-04-14 02:25:56 <gp5st> how that'll work we're working on
 580 2013-04-14 02:26:06 <digitalmagus> HM2: LOL!
 581 2013-04-14 02:26:23 <CodeShark> HM2: or something you take after you've gotten something after a dodgy one night stand
 582 2013-04-14 02:26:29 <warren> gp5st: oh, using multisig?
 583 2013-04-14 02:26:54 <gp5st> warren: one of the options
 584 2013-04-14 02:27:19 BitCoroner has joined
 585 2013-04-14 02:27:28 <sipa> from the GMP documentation about the name of the GMP_NUMB_BITS and GMP_NAIL_BITS:
 586 2013-04-14 02:27:31 <sipa> The term “nails” comes from finger or toe nails, which are at the ends of a limb (arm or leg). “numb” is short for number, but is also how the developers felt after trying for a long time to come up with sensible names for these things.
 587 2013-04-14 02:27:39 <gmaxwell> vazakl: unfortunately its not very pratical, but it's still very interesting work!
 588 2013-04-14 02:28:03 <CodeShark> sipa: what happened to digits? the fingers?
 589 2013-04-14 02:28:20 <HM2> i glanced at the zerocoin paper buy my eyes glazed over
 590 2013-04-14 02:28:37 <CodeShark> the zerocoin paper doesn't describe the zero-knowledge proof yet
 591 2013-04-14 02:28:43 <CodeShark> they are supposed to publish it next month
 592 2013-04-14 02:29:07 <CodeShark> or at least the article I read
 593 2013-04-14 02:29:16 <CodeShark> I haven't read the actual paper - do you have a preprint, HM2? :)
 594 2013-04-14 02:29:25 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
 595 2013-04-14 02:29:32 <HM2> the pdf from the blog post then
 596 2013-04-14 02:29:42 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: they've posted a preprint.
 597 2013-04-14 02:29:47 <CodeShark> ok
 598 2013-04-14 02:29:49 <CodeShark> haven't read it
 599 2013-04-14 02:29:56 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 600 2013-04-14 02:30:23 <gmaxwell> The highlights (lowlights) driving my commentary: 50kbyte transactions with 0.5 seconds validation time, which are checked against an evergrowing (non-prunable) cryptographic accumulator.
 601 2013-04-14 02:30:28 i2pRelay has joined
 602 2013-04-14 02:31:25 <gp5st> my google-foo is weak right now. can someone link to the zerocoins paper? i've heard much about it, but know nothing
 603 2013-04-14 02:31:26 <gmaxwell> (you could however, run many instances and "prune" the whole thing— if you didn't care about zero trust bootstrapping... but that reduces the anonymity set)
 604 2013-04-14 02:31:51 oiram has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 605 2013-04-14 02:31:52 <nanotube> sipa: it's just 'tblb' now. ,,(help tblb)
 606 2013-04-14 02:31:53 <gribble> (tblb <interval>) -- Calculate the expected time between blocks which take at least <interval> seconds to create. To provide the <interval> argument, a nested 'seconds' command may be helpful.
 607 2013-04-14 02:32:05 <nanotube> ;;tblb [seconds 1h]
 608 2013-04-14 02:32:06 <gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 1 hour and 0 seconds to generate is 1 week, 0 days, 0 hours, 1 minute, and 19 seconds
 609 2013-04-14 02:32:06 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: 2 seconds, not 0.5
 610 2013-04-14 02:32:37 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: oh was that graph the throughput? :(
 611 2013-04-14 02:32:54 <nanotube> sipa: (and yes, i just added that, because old bc,tblb was broken due to some other nested commands having changed syntax)
 612 2013-04-14 02:33:01 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: dunno, i read 2 seconds on the blog post iirc
 613 2013-04-14 02:33:02 <gmaxwell> So I think if it were 100x-1000x cheaper it would be interesting to consider implementing in Bitcoin itself.  Perhaps even now it might be interesting for an external system, but there are cheaper ways to do secure external mixers.
 614 2013-04-14 02:33:38 FredEE has joined
 615 2013-04-14 02:33:54 oiram has joined
 616 2013-04-14 02:33:57 <gmaxwell> (well 'secure' external mixers— as secure as you can make anything external: they'll still have a (potentially distributed) point of trust)
 617 2013-04-14 02:34:02 <amiller> why not encourage an altcoin to take it on
 618 2013-04-14 02:34:18 <gmaxwell> amiller: sounds like a fantastic idea.
 619 2013-04-14 02:34:37 crank has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 620 2013-04-14 02:35:14 <gmaxwell> well, once I figure out how to fold space in such a way as to give myself unbounded free time, I'd love to work on "Scamcoin", basically a research altcoin that implements most of my altideas page. but .. uh... thats not happening anytime soon
 621 2013-04-14 02:35:55 ie6 has joined
 622 2013-04-14 02:36:49 <warren> gmaxwell: just get someone else to incorporate it and see what happens
 623 2013-04-14 02:37:26 rdymac has joined
 624 2013-04-14 02:37:32 <gmaxwell> warren: dunno if you've noticed, but writing a bunch of code is not something basically any of the altcoins have done.
 625 2013-04-14 02:37:45 <warren> (sorry, lame joke attempt)
 626 2013-04-14 02:37:53 <gmaxwell> ah.
 627 2013-04-14 02:37:58 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 628 2013-04-14 02:38:20 Haifisch has joined
 629 2013-04-14 02:38:25 <gmaxwell> I made the altideas page half so I wouldn't keep forgetting them, and half just in case folks doing that stuff were actually short on interesting ideas... but I didn't think the latter was likely.
 630 2013-04-14 02:38:30 i2pRelay has joined
 631 2013-04-14 02:38:44 <vrs> gmaxwell: >basically a research altcoin that implements most of my altideas page
 632 2013-04-14 02:38:54 <vrs> hey I saw that page and though "hm that would make a nice altcoin"
 633 2013-04-14 02:39:20 <vrs> thought*
 634 2013-04-14 02:39:31 <gmaxwell> Some of the ideas on that page are mutually exclusive... but a lot could be combined.
 635 2013-04-14 02:41:33 <vrs> also I asked this in ppcoin but didn't really get a reply - basically you can mine any chain you like because you'll get a reward either way and it doesn't need much effort, right?
 636 2013-04-14 02:41:47 <vrs> can you also increase your chances of finding a block by mining several chains?
 637 2013-04-14 02:42:06 <HM2> gmaxwell: so, if you could break protocol willy nilly, what's the single most exiciting feature you'd rush to introduce?
 638 2013-04-14 02:42:15 <gmaxwell> vrs: yes, I really like how amiller described this problem "The problem with proof of stake is that there is nothing at stake".
 639 2013-04-14 02:42:28 <sipa> ha!
 640 2013-04-14 02:42:39 <gmaxwell> HM2: well thats a somewhat different question— there are some ideas that I think are neat but I'd never put them in bitcoin because they're changes to the economic promises of the system.
 641 2013-04-14 02:43:54 <gmaxwell> vrs: with bitcoin you hash .. and your hash is on a single chain, if that chain is a loser your hash was a waste of energy. with POS you lose nothing for betting on losers. .. so this changes the incentives ... a greedy miner would mine on all forks that don't screw them personally.
 642 2013-04-14 02:44:07 <vrs> yes
 643 2013-04-14 02:44:14 tvbcof has joined
 644 2013-04-14 02:44:18 <vrs> but does this increase their chance of finding a block?
 645 2013-04-14 02:44:19 <shesek> how can I get a list of the transactions sent to a specific address using bitcoind's api?
 646 2013-04-14 02:44:43 <sipa> shesek: listreceivedbyaddress?
 647 2013-04-14 02:45:23 cybermoron has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 648 2013-04-14 02:45:27 <gmaxwell> vrs: yes. PPCoin's latest change (which was instuted without public discussion, just a code drop.. hurray) tries to discourage that some by making the POS decision depend on the historic chain.. so to increase your odds your forks have to be split a bit further back.
 649 2013-04-14 02:45:45 sebicas has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 650 2013-04-14 02:45:51 <shesek> sipa, it doesn't let you specify the address you want... does it?
 651 2013-04-14 02:46:01 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 652 2013-04-14 02:46:07 <gmaxwell> vrs: I haven't thought too much about it simply because the fact that they still centerally control it by the developer signing blocks suggests to me that the developer doesn't yet believe it secure.
 653 2013-04-14 02:46:08 <shesek> also, there's no information about the actual transaction there, like the txid
 654 2013-04-14 02:46:23 <shesek> only the amount and number of confirmations
 655 2013-04-14 02:46:33 i2pRelay has joined
 656 2013-04-14 02:46:36 <sipa> shesek: right
 657 2013-04-14 02:46:47 <sipa> it's more a sumreceivedperaddress
 658 2013-04-14 02:46:53 <HM2> gmaxwell: you dodged the question ;)
 659 2013-04-14 02:47:10 <gmaxwell> HM2: what part of "yes" was a dodge?
 660 2013-04-14 02:47:16 <gmaxwell> oh oh
 661 2013-04-14 02:47:20 <gmaxwell> sorry wrong question.
 662 2013-04-14 02:47:28 <shesek> yep. is there something that lists the transactions for an address?
 663 2013-04-14 02:47:30 <gmaxwell> HM2: I was actually looking for some clarification? do I get to change the economics?
 664 2013-04-14 02:47:47 jaequery has joined
 665 2013-04-14 02:47:50 <gruez> sipa: there are dependencies that are not there anymore
 666 2013-04-14 02:47:51 <shesek> I guess I could just use listtransactions and filter what I need from there
 667 2013-04-14 02:47:54 <gruez> is it ok to substitute some?
 668 2013-04-14 02:48:06 <sipa> haha
 669 2013-04-14 02:48:08 <gruez> http://zlib.net/zlib-1.2.6.tar.gz doesn't exist, but http://zlib.net/zlib-1.2.7.tar.gz does
 670 2013-04-14 02:48:09 <sipa> gruez: define 'substitute' ?
 671 2013-04-14 02:48:15 <HM2> gmaxwell: change anything you like, as long as it doesn't introduce centralisation or anything like that
 672 2013-04-14 02:48:26 <sipa> gruez: if you change the versions, you'll also need to update the gitian scripts to use them
 673 2013-04-14 02:48:27 <HM2> the most interesting or exciting change you can think of
 674 2013-04-14 02:48:28 <gmaxwell> HM2: If I do, I make utxo expire. I know that this isn't the most amazing thing, but I think it's probably the single biggest improvement.
 675 2013-04-14 02:48:31 <sipa> gruez: just google for some archive
 676 2013-04-14 02:48:33 swulf-- has joined
 677 2013-04-14 02:48:38 <sipa> gruez: i'm sure 1.2.6 still exists
 678 2013-04-14 02:48:47 <gruez> sipa: can I change the file name back to the old version?
 679 2013-04-14 02:48:58 <HM2> gmaxwell: how drab :P but acceptable
 680 2013-04-14 02:49:00 <sipa> gruez: that'd be a very ugly hack, but yes
 681 2013-04-14 02:49:42 <sipa> gruez: if you once wanted to build actual deterministic release builds (i hope you do!!!), you'd wonder for hours why oh why they don't match
 682 2013-04-14 02:49:52 <gmaxwell> HM2: well, I have two long lists of things I find interesting... feel free to decide which of them you think are most exciting.
 683 2013-04-14 02:49:52 michal_ has joined
 684 2013-04-14 02:49:54 <swulf--> What is it about bitcoind that causes it to take so long when loading large a wallet.dat?
 685 2013-04-14 02:49:59 <gruez> nah, i'm just adding some random patches to my builds
 686 2013-04-14 02:50:00 <swulf--> s/large a/a large/
 687 2013-04-14 02:50:10 <HM2> gmaxwell: i really like the idea of a syntax tree for the scripting language.
 688 2013-04-14 02:50:55 <sipa> swulf--: part is BDB being not very fast, part is checking all private/public keypairs, part is inefficient code
 689 2013-04-14 02:51:04 oiram_ has joined
 690 2013-04-14 02:51:06 <gruez> sipa: so all the dependencies archives
 691 2013-04-14 02:51:11 <gruez> do I put them in input?
 692 2013-04-14 02:51:18 <gruez> or is there a special folder for them
 693 2013-04-14 02:51:18 <sipa> gruez: yes
 694 2013-04-14 02:51:24 <sipa> imput
 695 2013-04-14 02:51:34 <swulf--> "checking" private/public keypairs?  I.e., gen public key from private key and make sure it matches?  If you have the private key, why even bother storing the public key in wallet.dat?
 696 2013-04-14 02:51:51 <gmaxwell> HM2: There is one thing that I'd like do do that isn't listed there yet because I'm not yet sure it's possible.
 697 2013-04-14 02:51:51 polrpaul has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 698 2013-04-14 02:51:59 <sipa> swulf--: because, for historic reasons, they are indexed by pubkey
 699 2013-04-14 02:52:07 <gmaxwell> HM2: it goes along with the idea of having the history be highly pruned...
 700 2013-04-14 02:52:19 <HM2> gmaxwell: at what cost?
 701 2013-04-14 02:52:24 <sipa> swulf--: and checking is a very good way to detect wallet corruption (which actually happens...)
 702 2013-04-14 02:52:24 <swulf--> interesting
 703 2013-04-14 02:52:29 <swulf--> sure
 704 2013-04-14 02:52:41 oiram has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 705 2013-04-14 02:52:46 <sipa> then again, that's likely not the largest cost
 706 2013-04-14 02:52:55 <gmaxwell> HM2: and thats to use computational integrity techniques to have checkpoints which are proven to be correct. The idea being that you could do the history pruning stuff then without substantially losing security.
 707 2013-04-14 02:52:57 <sipa> a single decent CPU should be able to check several 1000/s
 708 2013-04-14 02:52:59 <swulf--> but duplication of private key (similar to how filesystems duplicate superblocks) might be a better strategy?
 709 2013-04-14 02:53:10 <swulf--> right
 710 2013-04-14 02:53:11 <sipa> swulf--: or switching to a non-crappy file format
 711 2013-04-14 02:53:15 <swulf--> yeah
 712 2013-04-14 02:53:27 <gp5st> n00b question. btc uses ecdsa? which curve does it use?
 713 2013-04-14 02:53:34 <sipa> gp5st: secp256k1
 714 2013-04-14 02:53:36 <swulf--> so i have a wallet.dat file with 10000+ addresses and it takes over 15 minutes to start bitcoind.. any workaround to speed things up?
 715 2013-04-14 02:53:47 <gp5st> thanks sipa
 716 2013-04-14 02:53:59 <sipa> swulf--: and that 15 minutes is actually spent loading the wallet?
 717 2013-04-14 02:54:01 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: thats not even a protocol change, its just a different bootstrap mechanism
 718 2013-04-14 02:54:02 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 719 2013-04-14 02:54:05 <gmaxwell> swulf--: weird, I'd tested with 100k in the past and it didn't take that long.
 720 2013-04-14 02:54:08 <swulf--> well, the last line output is "Loading wallet..."
 721 2013-04-14 02:54:14 <sipa> ok, then indeed
 722 2013-04-14 02:54:28 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: the protocol change is that you need a committed utxo.
 723 2013-04-14 02:54:31 i2pRelay has joined
 724 2013-04-14 02:54:39 franl has quit (Quit: O Elbereth!  Gilthoniel!  We still remember ...)
 725 2013-04-14 02:54:43 <swulf--> fwiw, this is with the latest git head too
 726 2013-04-14 02:55:12 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: committed as in?
 727 2013-04-14 02:55:15 fiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 728 2013-04-14 02:55:21 <sipa> BlueMatt: have blocks depend on it
 729 2013-04-14 02:55:25 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: as in connected via hashes to the block headers.
 730 2013-04-14 02:55:29 <sipa> BlueMatt: in practice, putting it in the coinbase
 731 2013-04-14 02:56:02 <gmaxwell> So that you know that it's the _right_ valid history.  The proof tells you that the validation passed for that history, the commitment tells you that you're checking the right one. :)
 732 2013-04-14 02:56:08 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: not necessarily, I was under the impression you could simply link the txo set to the hash of the block it links to (not the other way around)
 733 2013-04-14 02:56:26 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 734 2013-04-14 02:56:30 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
 735 2013-04-14 02:56:32 <BlueMatt> that + links to genesis and comes with a height/total work and you can be safe
 736 2013-04-14 02:57:15 <swulf-->  wallet               734609ms
 737 2013-04-14 02:57:22 knotwork has joined
 738 2013-04-14 02:57:22 knotwork has quit (Changing host)
 739 2013-04-14 02:57:22 knotwork has joined
 740 2013-04-14 02:57:28 <sipa> swulf--: ok, that's ridiculous...
 741 2013-04-14 02:57:31 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Hm. I'll have to think about that. You still need the utxo to validate forward, but indeed the proof could tell you that the utxo tree for block X is Y.
 742 2013-04-14 02:57:38 <swulf--> agreed
 743 2013-04-14 02:57:52 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yes, that is how I was thinking of doing it...no protocol changes that way
 744 2013-04-14 02:58:06 davidshrugged has joined
 745 2013-04-14 02:58:09 <Luke-Jr> Goonie_: ping
 746 2013-04-14 02:58:14 <BlueMatt> (though if you committed utxo set then you can just spv up to then and then start with utxo set)
 747 2013-04-14 02:58:29 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: in any case, I'm still not sure if any of these schemes can really give you constant proof size regardless of the amount of 'secret' input to the program. Amiller seemed to be saying some could, but I haven't read those papers yet.
 748 2013-04-14 02:58:29 <BlueMatt> then skip the whole computational integrity part
 749 2013-04-14 02:58:37 AlbertTuring has joined
 750 2013-04-14 02:58:40 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ack
 751 2013-04-14 02:58:49 <Luke-Jr> sipa: feature request for HD wallet on-disk format.. please put some kind of identifying market on private keys so they can be found in raw data easier :x
 752 2013-04-14 02:59:01 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: if you skip the integrity part that thats a strictly weaker security model— so obviously I'd rather not!
 753 2013-04-14 02:59:06 <Luke-Jr> sipa: in such a way that encryption doesn't screw it up :P
 754 2013-04-14 02:59:26 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yes, but if its 10 years deep...meh
 755 2013-04-14 02:59:30 <sipa> Luke-Jr: has nothing to do with HD wallets
 756 2013-04-14 02:59:42 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I presume the format will support HD keys :P
 757 2013-04-14 02:59:52 <sipa> Luke-Jr: the format is just key-value store
 758 2013-04-14 03:00:06 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yea, there is some depth that it's okay... but if we have CI and it works, the pruning could be happening _daily_ or weekly. And thats a lot better than having to fetch 10 years of data. :)
 759 2013-04-14 03:00:09 <sipa> Luke-Jr: s/is/supports/
 760 2013-04-14 03:00:25 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yep
 761 2013-04-14 03:00:28 <sipa> Luke-Jr: also, i will _not_ create a markeT on private keys :D
 762 2013-04-14 03:00:30 <swulf--> sipa: what db file is the accounts info stored?
 763 2013-04-14 03:00:36 <swulf--> stored in*
 764 2013-04-14 03:00:37 <sipa> swulf--: wallet.dat ?
 765 2013-04-14 03:00:40 <swulf--> ok
 766 2013-04-14 03:00:42 <Luke-Jr> sipa: ?
 767 2013-04-14 03:00:51 <sipa> Luke-Jr: re-read your question
 768 2013-04-14 03:00:59 <Luke-Jr> oops
 769 2013-04-14 03:01:15 <Luke-Jr> lol
 770 2013-04-14 03:01:26 <sipa> i'm not casascious
 771 2013-04-14 03:01:30 <sipa> =o
 772 2013-04-14 03:01:31 <sipa> -o
 773 2013-04-14 03:02:03 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 774 2013-04-14 03:02:07 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I think we don't really know how essential the autonoymous validation is in keeping miners honest, so I prefer to be pretty conservative wrt weaking that. I think it's reasonably clear that if only miners validated there would be a substantial risk of inflation.  But I don't know how deep the validation really matters.  Sometimes people join #bitcoin and claim that satoshi secretly has a billion bitcoins and it does help that ...
 775 2013-04-14 03:02:11 <HM2> Is casascius still doing good business?
 776 2013-04-14 03:02:14 <gmaxwell> ... you can explain how the system prevents that.
 777 2013-04-14 03:02:16 fiesh has joined
 778 2013-04-14 03:02:40 i2pRelay has joined
 779 2013-04-14 03:02:58 <gmaxwell> heheh "market on private keys". :P
 780 2013-04-14 03:02:59 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: true, but I think as we move forward that will be less and less a risk...I very much hope that merchants will never be spv
 781 2013-04-14 03:03:07 JamesHarrison has joined
 782 2013-04-14 03:03:19 <BlueMatt> and as merchant counts increase more and more, we will (hopefully) remain reasonably secure there
 783 2013-04-14 03:03:21 rdymac has joined
 784 2013-04-14 03:04:09 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I think— at least based on IRC banter— the direction they're currently going is towards SPVness... so I don't know about that.
 785 2013-04-14 03:04:10 <slavik03292> Has anyone built a usable multi-sig front-end?
 786 2013-04-14 03:04:24 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: a lot of people try to run things on very limited VPSen.
 787 2013-04-14 03:05:06 <MC1984> jesus christ if merchants cant be bothered to run validators....
 788 2013-04-14 03:05:16 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well, maybe Im too optimistic :(
 789 2013-04-14 03:05:17 <vrs> wait there are people that think satoshi has a billion bitcoins that are *not in the blockchain*?
 790 2013-04-14 03:05:25 <HM2> it's more than likely merchants will use a payment processor that maintains the blockchain
 791 2013-04-14 03:05:28 <HM2> like bitpay
 792 2013-04-14 03:05:39 <sipa> gmaxwell: i'm sure they also store their wallet on that VPS!
 793 2013-04-14 03:05:45 <gmaxwell> vrs: no, they think that not understanding how the blockchain proves that it isn't so.
 794 2013-04-14 03:05:54 <gmaxwell> sipa: that part is largely self correcting. :(
 795 2013-04-14 03:06:02 <gmaxwell> "people who do that don't have wallets for long"
 796 2013-04-14 03:06:13 <sipa> "a fool and their money are soon parted" ?
 797 2013-04-14 03:06:18 <gmaxwell> but right now the solution for a seperated wallet is the electrum thing.
 798 2013-04-14 03:06:34 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: gavin still has a wallet..
 799 2013-04-14 03:06:49 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: he lost the one he had on the faucet!
 800 2013-04-14 03:06:53 <Luke-Jr> :p
 801 2013-04-14 03:07:05 <gmaxwell> (gavin was clueful enough to not have the whole thing online!)
 802 2013-04-14 03:07:35 <Luke-Jr> I'm disappointed nobody sued Linode over that
 803 2013-04-14 03:07:38 BlueWall has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 804 2013-04-14 03:07:44 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yea, kinda surprised in fact.
 805 2013-04-14 03:08:12 <gmaxwell> then again, the natural result would be linnode banning bitcoin wallets from their service.
 806 2013-04-14 03:08:13 <diki> gmaxwell:Satoshi may not have a billion bitcoins, but he has a substantial amount to live his whole life doing NOTHING!
 807 2013-04-14 03:08:17 <HM2> they probably have a disclaimer and better lawyers than you
 808 2013-04-14 03:08:23 <gmaxwell> "We're not secure enough to handle these things"
 809 2013-04-14 03:08:24 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: true - but that might be a good thing
 810 2013-04-14 03:08:32 <HM2> PR cost would be high though
 811 2013-04-14 03:08:34 BlueWall has joined
 812 2013-04-14 03:08:37 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: btw, did you see the BitInstant theft?
 813 2013-04-14 03:08:44 <gmaxwell> HM2: in the US you can't disclaim negligence, it would be an interesting argument.
 814 2013-04-14 03:08:49 crank has joined
 815 2013-04-14 03:08:55 <MC1984> diki so what, he earned it
 816 2013-04-14 03:09:07 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: No.
 817 2013-04-14 03:09:07 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: their DNS registrar blamed BitInstant for answering their security questions honestly
 818 2013-04-14 03:09:10 <diki> It's true to he earned it, but it's not a lie he has a very big amount.
 819 2013-04-14 03:09:13 <Luke-Jr> "you're supposed to lie!"
 820 2013-04-14 03:09:15 <MC1984> the one block he premined he cannot ever spend anyway
 821 2013-04-14 03:09:16 <gmaxwell> ...!
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 825 2013-04-14 03:09:29 <HM2> Security questions are always garbage
 826 2013-04-14 03:09:47 <Luke-Jr> HM2: yeah, but if the site forces you to set them up, then lets someone hijack your email with public info..
 827 2013-04-14 03:09:49 cirili has joined
 828 2013-04-14 03:10:00 <HM2> It's either, "what is your middle name?" or "what was the colour of your first bucket and spade?"
 829 2013-04-14 03:10:06 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 830 2013-04-14 03:10:25 <gmaxwell> I do think its neat that bitcoin has a real chance of advancing the art of computer security. With bitcoin it's harder to pretend that everything is okay when it really isn't.
 831 2013-04-14 03:10:38 i2pRelay has joined
 832 2013-04-14 03:11:05 <HM2> I was once a smartarse, when asked for the middle name of my aunt i chose "null"
 833 2013-04-14 03:11:08 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 834 2013-04-14 03:11:11 <HM2> she had no middle name
 835 2013-04-14 03:11:30 <HM2> seemed like a good idea until they asked me on the phone and were giving me clues like "it begins with n"
 836 2013-04-14 03:11:57 <diki> yeah
 837 2013-04-14 03:12:04 <diki> those generic security questions always suck
 838 2013-04-14 03:12:35 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 839 2013-04-14 03:12:40 <gmaxwell> mine never have anything to do with the questions... "what high school did you go to?"  "xlorpolaxtan3"
 840 2013-04-14 03:12:47 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
 841 2013-04-14 03:12:47 <diki> but I bet you would've trolled them a bit more if you had written Norris.
 842 2013-04-14 03:12:51 <warren> how much was lost by linode in that compromise?
 843 2013-04-14 03:12:59 <HM2> but i've had my share of smaller domain registrars who'll unlock your domain and change things by email request
 844 2013-04-14 03:13:02 <MC1984> xbox live account stealing was a big thing up until quite recently, accounts that might have thousands of $ of value attached
 845 2013-04-14 03:13:14 <Luke-Jr> warren: an awful lot
 846 2013-04-14 03:13:26 <gmaxwell> warren: around $200k at the valuation at the time? (random memory, I could look it up if it mattered)
 847 2013-04-14 03:13:27 <MC1984> its done by phoning support 10x and getting one new piece of info out of the phone monkey each time
 848 2013-04-14 03:13:33 <warren> o_O
 849 2013-04-14 03:13:40 cirili has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 850 2013-04-14 03:13:51 <warren> btw, Linode e-mailed everyone yesterday saying "change your password"
 851 2013-04-14 03:14:16 <gmaxwell> warren: what was unique there is that since several customers were hit at once it couldn't be covered up as a single customer's own mistake.
 852 2013-04-14 03:15:27 <gmaxwell> (I know I sound like I'm faulting linnode here, that isn't my intent. I think the entire industry is in a bad state, linnode's practices may in fact be better than average)
 853 2013-04-14 03:15:54 <warren> At least that particular attack would have been foiled by encrypted root, but that isn't to say the next attack would be.  The kind of access the attackers had, they could have suspended the VM and copied its live state.
 854 2013-04-14 03:16:13 leprosys has joined
 855 2013-04-14 03:16:15 <gmaxwell> right. or even an encrypted wallet.
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 862 2013-04-14 03:20:15 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: does zerocoin *really* break the tracing?
 863 2013-04-14 03:20:43 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I mean, couldn't I just emulate an independent blockchain for each Mint, and figure out which one it is by seeing which one the Spend verifies with?
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 865 2013-04-14 03:21:19 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: if that doesn't work, then I'd think zerocoin is vulnerable to double-spends..
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 869 2013-04-14 03:25:36 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: no, each spend requires a snapshot of the zerocoin-utxo-set iirc
 870 2013-04-14 03:25:44 <BlueMatt> well iiuc
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 873 2013-04-14 03:26:19 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: so every block that doesn't confirm your transaction invalidates it?
 874 2013-04-14 03:26:27 <BlueMatt> nfc
 875 2013-04-14 03:26:38 <Luke-Jr> (assuming there's a zerocoin transaction in the block)
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 877 2013-04-14 03:26:43 <swulf--> sipa: i have another wallet.dat that has over 50k addresses... erm, if its scaling linearly then loading 50k is going to take an hour to load..   is there _any_ way you can think of to workaround this?
 878 2013-04-14 03:26:54 <warren> gmaxwell: eh?  wouldn't the encrypted wallet be unencrypted in RAM and vulnerable to a state copy?
 879 2013-04-14 03:27:08 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: well you could say "I created this when the set was as it appears at time T"
 880 2013-04-14 03:27:31 <Luke-Jr> hrm
 881 2013-04-14 03:27:53 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: I didnt read all that carefully, but I assume they are smarter than such a simple attack
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 891 2013-04-14 03:39:12 <sipa> swulf--: number of transactions also matters
 892 2013-04-14 03:39:25 <swulf--> there are a significant number of transactions in the wallet
 893 2013-04-14 03:39:27 <sipa> swulf--: but i'd be interested in profiling to see where it's spending time
 894 2013-04-14 03:39:45 <swulf--> wish i could help here, but i can't give you the wallet.dat i'm sure you understand ;)
 895 2013-04-14 03:39:57 <swulf--> i could do some profiling, though
 896 2013-04-14 03:40:23 <swulf--> does the build system already support a profile build or do i need to make manual changes to the makefile?
 897 2013-04-14 03:40:32 <gmaxwell> warren: "would have been foiled by encrypted root" or encrypted wallet
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 901 2013-04-14 03:41:21 <Luke-Jr> gruez: how's it coming?
 902 2013-04-14 03:41:36 <Luke-Jr> sipa: how about yours? :P
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 908 2013-04-14 03:43:43 <sipa> swulf--: a debug build + something like callgrind can be enough, but it'd need some tweaks i guess
 909 2013-04-14 03:44:14 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i got as far as compiling some things, then it got into a 100% loop in the VM somewhere, haven't investigated
 910 2013-04-14 03:44:40 <diki> sipa:In this serialization process, are the variables of the object turned into a single seuqence of bytes in the order they are created in?
 911 2013-04-14 03:45:15 <diki> *sequence
 912 2013-04-14 03:45:40 <sipa> diki: each object defines its own serialization
 913 2013-04-14 03:45:56 <sipa> diki: that may be straighforward concatenation of the variables
 914 2013-04-14 03:46:07 BlueWall has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 915 2013-04-14 03:46:13 <sipa> diki: but it may be a lot more complex if necessary (for example to deal with older versions)
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 917 2013-04-14 03:47:00 <swulf--> hmm ok
 918 2013-04-14 03:47:41 <sipa> and obviously i don't expect you to send me your wallet
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 923 2013-04-14 03:49:58 <gruez> <Luke-Jr> gruez: how's it coming?
 924 2013-04-14 03:50:08 <gruez> it's working well so far
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 926 2013-04-14 03:50:18 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: you can't replay to deanonymize because the spending transaction depends on _all_ the unspent zerocoins. So it will fail if you do any reordering.
 927 2013-04-14 03:50:25 <gruez> thanks for all your help :)
 928 2013-04-14 03:50:34 jciri has joined
 929 2013-04-14 03:50:36 <gmaxwell> (there are all kinds of awesome implementation challenges that probably arise from that)
 930 2013-04-14 03:50:47 i2pRelay has joined
 931 2013-04-14 03:51:00 <gmaxwell> e.g. I don't think you can author a transaction offline. And you need this big database of candidate coins just to spend one, etc.
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 938 2013-04-14 03:53:36 <warren> Luke-Jr: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=175697.0   Uh oh.  Freicoin is going to add a "difficulty fix".
 939 2013-04-14 03:54:06 <warren> sorry, that wasn't meant for any particular person
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 950 2013-04-14 04:12:48 <EPiKSiNG-> what happens when a private key gets imported to multiple wallets?
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 958 2013-04-14 04:17:51 <joeykrim> EPiKSiNG-, nothing i dont think ...
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 962 2013-04-14 04:19:16 <weex> multiple wallets then can spend using that private key
 963 2013-04-14 04:19:20 Elmf has joined
 964 2013-04-14 04:19:41 <weex> they each will show the additional balance and only a spending one will show the decrease reflected in the blockchain
 965 2013-04-14 04:19:57 <weex> so it's not a very useful thing to do besides for some kind of backup
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 967 2013-04-14 04:21:27 <swulf-->  wallet              2295955ms
 968 2013-04-14 04:21:33 <swulf--> thats ridiculous :)
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 986 2013-04-14 04:41:42 <weex> swulf--: what version you running?
 987 2013-04-14 04:42:02 <swulf-->     "version" : 80199,
 988 2013-04-14 04:42:15 <swulf--> git head
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 997 2013-04-14 04:50:25 <swulf--> did something change between 0.7 and 0.8 that would cause transactions not to show in listtransactions in 0.8 when they would have in 0.7?
 998 2013-04-14 04:52:03 <Luke-Jr> probably
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1011 2013-04-14 04:59:37 <Uisgdlyast> how do you find out how legit someone is?
1012 2013-04-14 04:59:47 <Uisgdlyast> gettrust?
1013 2013-04-14 04:59:49 <Kireji> I just did a "bitcoind sendfrom 'account' amount" - and the change was put into a new address.  but when I list addresses with "bitcoind listreceivedbyaddress 0 true" that new address with the change is not listed
1014 2013-04-14 04:59:50 dvide has quit ()
1015 2013-04-14 04:59:58 <Kireji> what am I missing?
1016 2013-04-14 05:02:03 <Kireji> freaking out a bit here, as I just tried "bitcoind dumpprivkey new_change_Address" and got "Private key for address ... is not known"
1017 2013-04-14 05:02:21 DunnoNL has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1022 2013-04-14 05:03:54 <Luke-Jr> Uisgdlyast: wrong channel
1023 2013-04-14 05:04:05 <Luke-Jr> Kireji: change is trnasparent
1024 2013-04-14 05:04:24 <Kireji> Luke-Jr: what does that mean?
1025 2013-04-14 05:04:32 <Luke-Jr> Kireji: you can't see it
1026 2013-04-14 05:04:49 rZ__ has quit (Quit: rZ__)
1027 2013-04-14 05:04:53 <Kireji> blockchain.info shows it
1028 2013-04-14 05:04:58 <Luke-Jr> although, I'd expect dumpprivkey to work with it - maybe report a bug if you're sure it doesn't
1029 2013-04-14 05:05:04 <Luke-Jr> blockchain.info is a bad reference
1030 2013-04-14 05:05:27 <Kireji> I'm totally confused
1031 2013-04-14 05:05:27 <Luke-Jr> change addresses are a low-level detail not intended for users
1032 2013-04-14 05:05:32 chorao has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1033 2013-04-14 05:05:54 <Kireji> that's fine, but I'm running API calls on bitcoind
1034 2013-04-14 05:06:13 <Luke-Jr> bitcoind users are still considered users for the most part
1035 2013-04-14 05:06:19 realazthat has joined
1036 2013-04-14 05:06:29 <Kireji> ... ?
1037 2013-04-14 05:06:52 <Luke-Jr> Kireji: you sound like you're trying to do a paper wallet, which bitcoind/Bitcoin-Qt do not support
1038 2013-04-14 05:07:08 <Kireji> not at all
1039 2013-04-14 05:07:20 <Kireji> I just spent my first transaction and folling what happened
1040 2013-04-14 05:07:27 <Luke-Jr> then why are you messing with private keys?
1041 2013-04-14 05:07:38 <Kireji> I'm trying to see where the bitcoins went!
1042 2013-04-14 05:08:02 <Luke-Jr> …
1043 2013-04-14 05:08:09 <Kireji> just because I'm a "user" doesn't mean I can't or don't want to understand how it works
1044 2013-04-14 05:08:11 <Luke-Jr> is your displayed balance correct?
1045 2013-04-14 05:08:17 <Luke-Jr> ok
1046 2013-04-14 05:08:18 <Kireji> yes
1047 2013-04-14 05:08:21 <Kireji> but
1048 2013-04-14 05:08:23 <Luke-Jr> but Bitcoin-Qt isn't going to show you how it works
1049 2013-04-14 05:08:28 <Luke-Jr> it's going to show you your balance
1050 2013-04-14 05:08:52 <Kireji> I'm not using Bitcoin-Qt
1051 2013-04-14 05:09:11 <Luke-Jr> same for bitcoind
1052 2013-04-14 05:09:28 <Kireji> that seems non functional  address A-> B and C
1053 2013-04-14 05:09:34 <Kireji> and now I can't see C?
1054 2013-04-14 05:09:38 chorao has joined
1055 2013-04-14 05:09:59 <Kireji> does my system not have C?  where are the rest of the bitcoins that were in A?
1056 2013-04-14 05:10:21 <Luke-Jr> Kireji: that's low-level, like assembly
1057 2013-04-14 05:10:30 <Luke-Jr> bitcoind only shows you high-level, like Python
1058 2013-04-14 05:10:33 <Kireji> it's the actual transaction
1059 2013-04-14 05:10:36 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1060 2013-04-14 05:10:49 <Kireji> this is a TERRIBLE AND WRONG design choice, sorry.  wow.
1061 2013-04-14 05:11:07 <Kireji> if I understand what I'm hearing, ...
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1063 2013-04-14 05:11:21 <Luke-Jr> Kireji: most people don't care about low-level
1064 2013-04-14 05:11:26 <Luke-Jr> you're not the target audience
1065 2013-04-14 05:11:33 <Kireji> that's fine
1066 2013-04-14 05:11:45 <Kireji> but there has to be some way to see the accounts I actually have
1067 2013-04-14 05:12:05 <Kireji> the list of public and private data the bitcoind client is holding
1068 2013-04-14 05:12:22 <Luke-Jr> accounts are not addresses
1069 2013-04-14 05:12:42 <Kireji> I know that
1070 2013-04-14 05:12:44 <weex> Kireji: use pywallet to dump the keys, just shut down bitcoin first
1071 2013-04-14 05:13:09 <Kireji> the drive to "hide" data from users is starting to make it more confusing
1072 2013-04-14 05:13:26 <Kireji> accounts are what are important, these are the actual private keys
1073 2013-04-14 05:13:35 <Kireji> s/addresses
1074 2013-04-14 05:13:50 <Kireji> grouping them together into accounts and then not being able to access the address?
1075 2013-04-14 05:14:25 <Kireji> I don't even understand that.  in my case, which bitcoin address has my remaining bitcoins?
1076 2013-04-14 05:14:48 <weex> Kireji: you can see it if you take the transaction id to blockchain.info or blockexplorer
1077 2013-04-14 05:14:50 <Kireji> it was a VERY simple transaction  A -> B and C   B was the recipient.
1078 2013-04-14 05:15:06 <Kireji> weex: I did that first
1079 2013-04-14 05:15:18 <Kireji> now there's a address, listed at C, that my client won't show me
1080 2013-04-14 05:15:19 <weex> and in my experience accounts are pretty useless other than as labels
1081 2013-04-14 05:15:29 masterth1knife has quit (Quit: leaving)
1082 2013-04-14 05:15:46 <weex> Kireji: yeah, i've seen that cause confusion many times
1083 2013-04-14 05:15:49 <Kireji> so... which address has the rest of those bitcoins?
1084 2013-04-14 05:16:01 <Kireji> I'm confused, it doesn't appear
1085 2013-04-14 05:16:11 <weex> C does
1086 2013-04-14 05:16:23 <weex> but your balance from getinfo should reflect them
1087 2013-04-14 05:16:27 <Kireji> ... it doesn't appear the client shows me address it must have
1088 2013-04-14 05:16:52 <Kireji> bitcoind listaccounts shows the correct balances
1089 2013-04-14 05:16:55 <weex> yeah it doesn't want you to use change addresses to recieve more coins so keeps track of them seperately
1090 2013-04-14 05:18:18 yamamushi is now known as _yamamushi
1091 2013-04-14 05:18:33 <Kireji> ... ???
1092 2013-04-14 05:18:39 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1093 2013-04-14 05:18:45 <Kireji> if this is the case then "bitcoind getaddressesbyaccount" is showing incorrect information
1094 2013-04-14 05:19:11 i2pRelay has joined
1095 2013-04-14 05:19:17 <Kireji> it lists only 1 address, that by the information in blockexplorer has 0 value
1096 2013-04-14 05:19:27 <Kireji> while the account for that address has a balance in it
1097 2013-04-14 05:19:41 <Luke-Jr> Kireji: no, you're assuming accounts and addresses are the same in some sense
1098 2013-04-14 05:20:06 <Luke-Jr> Kireji: accounts don't have addresses; addresses just have accounts "linked"
1099 2013-04-14 05:20:17 <Luke-Jr> when they receive coins, that account is credited
1100 2013-04-14 05:20:24 <Luke-Jr> that's the end of the relationship
1101 2013-04-14 05:21:20 <Kireji> addresses are linked to accounts, correct?
1102 2013-04-14 05:21:34 <Luke-Jr> what I just said.
1103 2013-04-14 05:21:34 <Kireji> I can say "what are the addresses in this account"? and get a list of addresses
1104 2013-04-14 05:22:16 <Kireji> ok - so when I ask "bitcoind getaddressesbyaccount" and get the list of addresses, only 1 address appears, the "A" address of my A -> B and C transaction
1105 2013-04-14 05:22:26 <Kireji> except A no longer has any bitcoins in it, C does
1106 2013-04-14 05:22:36 <Kireji> and bitcoind won't show me C
1107 2013-04-14 05:22:45 <Kireji> and I understanding this correctly?
1108 2013-04-14 05:22:46 <Luke-Jr> bitcoind does not recognize addresses as containing bitcoins
1109 2013-04-14 05:23:03 <Kireji> Luke-Jr: ok.  uhh, ok
1110 2013-04-14 05:23:21 <Kireji> then I don't understand the protocol then
1111 2013-04-14 05:23:29 <Luke-Jr> Kireji: bitcoind does not display the protocol
1112 2013-04-14 05:23:38 <Kireji> of course it doesn't
1113 2013-04-14 05:23:56 <Luke-Jr> sigh
1114 2013-04-14 05:23:57 <Kireji> addresses are a public and a private key, correct?
1115 2013-04-14 05:24:09 <Luke-Jr> Kireji: addresses are an encoded form of a public key
1116 2013-04-14 05:24:18 <Kireji> yes
1117 2013-04-14 05:24:37 <Luke-Jr> bitcoind sees new coins received on addresses, but from that point onward they are just "coins in the wallet"
1118 2013-04-14 05:25:07 <rainworm> has anyone considered a cryptocurrency (or updating bitcoin) that would implement a setable, optional pass/challenge layer of data, required to set a transaction as legitimate -- paired with the private key... I'm thinking it would be an interesting method to mitigate the risk of lost/stolen keys immediately being spent?
1119 2013-04-14 05:25:34 <Luke-Jr> rainworm: you mean encrypted wallets, which have been supported since 0.4?
1120 2013-04-14 05:25:43 <Plinker_> How do you identify an account holder if you call it that?
1121 2013-04-14 05:25:57 <Kireji> so is the private key from A still the one to sign transactions using coins seen on address C?
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1138 2013-04-14 05:26:08 <Luke-Jr> Kireji: no
1139 2013-04-14 05:26:21 <Kireji> so there's a separate private key for address C?
1140 2013-04-14 05:26:30 DunnoNL has joined
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1142 2013-04-14 05:26:40 <Luke-Jr> yes
1143 2013-04-14 05:26:42 <Luke-Jr> for now
1144 2013-04-14 05:26:44 <Kireji> where is it?
1145 2013-04-14 05:26:51 <Luke-Jr> Kireji: in the wallet
1146 2013-04-14 05:26:56 <Kireji> I want to see it
1147 2013-04-14 05:26:57 <Luke-Jr> invisible to you
1148 2013-04-14 05:27:03 <Kireji> why?
1149 2013-04-14 05:27:09 <Luke-Jr> because it's nothing you care about
1150 2013-04-14 05:27:14 <Kireji> FUCK THAT
1151 2013-04-14 05:27:19 <Kireji> you get to decide that.
1152 2013-04-14 05:27:30 <Luke-Jr> again [04:49:11] <Luke-Jr> you're not the target audience
1153 2013-04-14 05:27:41 <Kireji> I damn well do!  that's the private key that is worth many many thousands of dollars
1154 2013-04-14 05:27:59 <Kireji> that's fine.
1155 2013-04-14 05:28:10 <Kireji> invisible and unfindable are totally different
1156 2013-04-14 05:28:24 <Luke-Jr> the target audience doesn't want to know it exists
1157 2013-04-14 05:28:40 <Kireji> it's how the protocol actually works
1158 2013-04-14 05:28:52 quaz0r has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1159 2013-04-14 05:28:55 <Kireji> how can that possibly even be a resonable arguemnt?
1160 2013-04-14 05:28:55 <Luke-Jr> which the target audience couldn't care less about
1161 2013-04-14 05:29:11 <Luke-Jr> all the audience cares about is that they have X bitcoins
1162 2013-04-14 05:29:26 <Kireji> I agree with you on that
1163 2013-04-14 05:29:32 <Luke-Jr> stored in a wallet file, which they can backup easily
1164 2013-04-14 05:30:06 <Kireji> I undertand there are a lot of people who just want a simple system that lists accounts and balances
1165 2013-04-14 05:30:19 <Kireji> and I agree on designing the interfaces to that audience
1166 2013-04-14 05:30:20 Haifisch has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1167 2013-04-14 05:31:05 <Kireji> BUT I'm making a different point.  If the client is hiding information that is intrinsic to the functioning of the protocol in a way that private keys cannot be seen, cannot be exported, then it's not functional
1168 2013-04-14 05:31:17 <Luke-Jr> but it is
1169 2013-04-14 05:31:17 <Kireji> it doesn't actually serve the purpose it was designed to do
1170 2013-04-14 05:31:22 <Luke-Jr> it does
1171 2013-04-14 05:31:37 <Kireji> then show me how I can see the private key for C in my transaction
1172 2013-04-14 05:31:39 <Luke-Jr> the purpose it was designed to do, is display accounts and balances, and send those to others
1173 2013-04-14 05:31:41 <Luke-Jr> nothing more
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1175 2013-04-14 05:32:22 Phraust has joined
1176 2013-04-14 05:32:33 <Plinker_> Actually Luke-Jr I see the logic in that!
1177 2013-04-14 05:32:43 <Kireji> Luke-Jr: that is not what bitcoind does
1178 2013-04-14 05:32:47 <Kireji> and you know it
1179 2013-04-14 05:33:22 <Kireji> that may be the story you want the interface to users to present, but bitcoind is not just "display accounts and balances, and send those to others"
1180 2013-04-14 05:33:48 <Luke-Jr> Kireji: admittedly, it's been growing
1181 2013-04-14 05:33:58 <Luke-Jr> Kireji: if you want it to grow more, feel free to submit code
1182 2013-04-14 05:34:03 <Kireji> clearly, in the one transaction I just performed, it actually conducted the bitcoin protocol
1183 2013-04-14 05:34:12 <Luke-Jr> that's "send those to others"
1184 2013-04-14 05:34:14 phma has joined
1185 2013-04-14 05:34:53 <Kireji> it created (I'm trusting now, because I can't check it) a new pub/private keypair, and wrote a transaction and put the chance on that new address
1186 2013-04-14 05:35:26 nsillik_ has joined
1187 2013-04-14 05:35:32 <Kireji> Here's why I haev such a huge problem with this, and why I'm swearing.
1188 2013-04-14 05:36:06 <Kireji> Bitcoin has a huge strength in that the protocol is open - anyone who wants to really dig into it, can figure out how it works.  nothing about the protocol is hidden or secret
1189 2013-04-14 05:36:27 <Kireji> the code is there, the transactions are there, for all to see and examine
1190 2013-04-14 05:36:33 <Kireji> it's a huge pillar that creates trust
1191 2013-04-14 05:36:50 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1192 2013-04-14 05:37:23 <Kireji> if the client won't show me the address or the private keys that it will use to sign transactions, (a VERY SIMPLE thing for the client to do) then it undermines that trust
1193 2013-04-14 05:38:14 <Kireji> making it not a default, fine - targeting for intended audience fine.  hiding critical information for the protocol to function - not fine
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1202 2013-04-14 05:47:38 * BlueMatt notes that he called signmessage feature creep to begin with
1203 2013-04-14 05:49:31 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: ☺
1204 2013-04-14 05:50:26 Guest85221 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1205 2013-04-14 05:50:36 BCB has joined
1206 2013-04-14 05:50:51 <BCB> what is the bst way to store bitcoin amounts in a mysql database?
1207 2013-04-14 05:50:54 grau has joined
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1209 2013-04-14 05:51:24 <BlueMatt> some integer type that can store 21 million * 10^8
1210 2013-04-14 05:52:40 <weex> BCB: decimal(16,8) or you can go int
1211 2013-04-14 05:52:45 <gmaxwell> Kireji: The normal interface on the client barely shows addresses at all, and it _does not_ show private keys.  Exposing raw keys too easily is security problematic.
1212 2013-04-14 05:52:45 <Luke-Jr> 64-bit integer should work
1213 2013-04-14 05:53:11 <BCB> weex, doesn't decimal cause math errors
1214 2013-04-14 05:53:11 <gmaxwell> (though sure, there should be some better way to see used change addresses, I think I agree with that)
1215 2013-04-14 05:53:12 <BCB> ??
1216 2013-04-14 05:53:26 <BlueMatt> no, decimal type is not float
1217 2013-04-14 05:53:28 <Luke-Jr> it's bad practice to store in measure of BTC in any case
1218 2013-04-14 05:53:32 X-Scale has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1219 2013-04-14 05:53:43 <BCB> Luke-Jr, so what is good practice
1220 2013-04-14 05:53:45 * weex lives dangerously
1221 2013-04-14 05:53:50 <gmaxwell> BCB: decimal behaves as expected. Thoug storing satoshi in 64 bit integers is probably a lot smarter.
1222 2013-04-14 05:53:50 <BCB> int
1223 2013-04-14 05:53:52 <Luke-Jr> BCB: 64-bit int
1224 2013-04-14 05:53:54 <Kireji> gmaxwell: I was only using dumpprivkey to see if the address was actually there
1225 2013-04-14 05:53:59 <BCB> thx
1226 2013-04-14 05:54:08 <gmaxwell> Kireji: you usually use validateaddress for that.
1227 2013-04-14 05:54:17 <BCB> how long is a bitcoin address
1228 2013-04-14 05:54:51 ThomasV has joined
1229 2013-04-14 05:54:58 <Kireji> gmaxwell: THANK YOU!
1230 2013-04-14 05:54:59 <weex> i do varchar(64) just in case
1231 2013-04-14 05:55:21 <Kireji> "ismine" : true  <--  that's what I was looking for
1232 2013-04-14 05:55:42 <BCB> Luke-Jr, tiny, small, meduim or big??
1233 2013-04-14 05:55:47 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: dumpprivkey probably should be allowed to do change addresses tho IMO
1234 2013-04-14 05:55:52 <gmaxwell> Kireji: yea, not the most discoverable RPC feature.
1235 2013-04-14 05:55:52 <Luke-Jr> BCB: yes
1236 2013-04-14 05:55:58 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it does.
1237 2013-04-14 05:56:08 execut3 has joined
1238 2013-04-14 05:56:12 <gmaxwell> Though the wallet has to be unlocked.
1239 2013-04-14 05:56:15 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: not according to Kireji's experience :x
1240 2013-04-14 05:56:15 <BCB> Luke-Jr, which size
1241 2013-04-14 05:56:28 <Luke-Jr> BCB: 64-bit
1242 2013-04-14 05:56:47 X-Scale has joined
1243 2013-04-14 05:57:03 <BCB> Luke-Jr, so 8 bytes
1244 2013-04-14 05:57:12 <Luke-Jr> yes
1245 2013-04-14 05:57:14 <BCB> ty
1246 2013-04-14 05:57:30 <Kireji> gmaxwell: is there a reason why "bitcoind getaddressesbyaccount" doesn't show all the addresses that are "ismine"> true ?
1247 2013-04-14 05:58:05 <Kireji> Luke-Jr: :)
1248 2013-04-14 05:58:11 <gmaxwell> Kireji: because it only shows addresses which have been assigned to accounts, e.g. ones you intend to recieve funds on.
1249 2013-04-14 05:58:21 <gmaxwell> Kireji: perhaps you would find listunspent useful?
1250 2013-04-14 05:58:56 <Kireji> interesting...
1251 2013-04-14 05:59:21 <Kireji> but those seem list two different ideas - ones assigned to accounts and ones the user expects to recieve on
1252 2013-04-14 05:59:23 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1253 2013-04-14 05:59:35 <Kireji> in this case, it appears the change addres *is* linked to the account
1254 2013-04-14 05:59:40 <Luke-Jr> Kireji: it's not
1255 2013-04-14 06:00:07 <gmaxwell> Kireji: it's not, the system never expects to recieve funds on a change address. (It does handle it if it happens, IIRC, but its certantly not intended)
1256 2013-04-14 06:00:09 <Kireji> the balances listed on listaccounts still shows the bitcoins in that account
1257 2013-04-14 06:00:50 <Kireji> ie the "change" stays in that account
1258 2013-04-14 06:00:51 <gmaxwell> It'll happily still show the same balance for that account if some transaction related to another account spends that change.
1259 2013-04-14 06:01:18 <Kireji> are accounts and addresses 1-to-1?
1260 2013-04-14 06:01:23 <gmaxwell> The accounts have nothing to do with the transaction outputs.. They're bookkeeping, like marking off parts of your checking account for different expenses.
1261 2013-04-14 06:01:26 <gmaxwell> NO
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1263 2013-04-14 06:01:46 <Kireji> one address can be in many accounts?
1264 2013-04-14 06:01:59 jaequery has joined
1265 2013-04-14 06:02:02 <gmaxwell> They're _almost_ entirely unrelated. The only relationship is that you can tag addresses so that it knows that funds recieved at that address are auto-assigned to a particular account.
1266 2013-04-14 06:02:04 <Kireji> "They're bookkeeping" -> got that
1267 2013-04-14 06:02:41 jaequery has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1268 2013-04-14 06:02:48 <Luke-Jr> I like having my default account balance negative.
1269 2013-04-14 06:03:35 jaequery has joined
1270 2013-04-14 06:03:55 jaequery has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1271 2013-04-14 06:04:19 nsillik_ has quit (Quit: nsillik_)
1272 2013-04-14 06:04:38 <Kireji> I still don't understand the reasoning of why the client won't show the public or private key for change addresses - or even show which chance addresses exist
1273 2013-04-14 06:04:50 <Kireji> s/change
1274 2013-04-14 06:04:50 jaequery has joined
1275 2013-04-14 06:05:07 jaequery has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1276 2013-04-14 06:05:13 <gmaxwell> but, — for example.. you can assign   Addr  1A to account "carwash"   then you get 10 BTC there.   You then spend 5 BTC from "carwash"  but it uses a 5BTC coin you'd previously recieved to some other account to pay it. "Carwash" shows 5 btc. You then spend 2 BTC in "tennis" and it uses the 10 BTC coin that had paid to carwash, creating 8 BTC change.   "Tennis" goes down by 2, carwash continues to show "5".
1277 2013-04-14 06:05:54 <kadoban> Kireji: they're basically an implementation detail, most users don't really need to know they exist
1278 2013-04-14 06:05:57 jaequery has joined
1279 2013-04-14 06:06:10 <Kireji> kadoban: compeltely agree
1280 2013-04-14 06:06:12 jaequery has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1281 2013-04-14 06:06:17 <Kireji> most users is not what I'm talking about
1282 2013-04-14 06:06:35 <kadoban> well if you care, you can track them down, right?
1283 2013-04-14 06:06:37 <gmaxwell> Kireji: It shows a wallet. It doesn't show the state of the RNG or what peers you sent a transaction to or a million other bits of internal plumbing.  Having some way to list your wallet's change addresses in some poweruser menu would probably be handy, but it's not important to the operation of the wallet.
1284 2013-04-14 06:07:06 jaequery has joined
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1286 2013-04-14 06:07:34 <Kireji> "but it uses a 5BTC coin you'd previously recieved to some other account to pay it"  ->  whut?  if you specify sendfrom and there are not enough coins in the account, doesn't that throw an error?
1287 2013-04-14 06:08:12 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: actually, Bitcoin-Qt does tell you how many peers it sent a given transaction to <.<
1288 2013-04-14 06:08:16 jaequery has joined
1289 2013-04-14 06:08:24 <Kireji> gmaxwell: I wrote this above, and I'll explain it again.  yes, there are thousands of details that don't matter.  this one does, for trust
1290 2013-04-14 06:08:26 jaequery has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1291 2013-04-14 06:08:27 <Luke-Jr> Kireji: no, it works fine
1292 2013-04-14 06:08:27 execut3 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1293 2013-04-14 06:08:38 <Luke-Jr> Kireji: it will just take the account negative
1294 2013-04-14 06:08:44 <gmaxwell> "for trust"?
1295 2013-04-14 06:08:47 <Luke-Jr> assuming you have enough coins in the wallet
1296 2013-04-14 06:09:09 <gmaxwell> Kireji: Coins are not in accounts. Accounts are just bookeeping they are totally seperate from the coins.
1297 2013-04-14 06:09:21 jaequery has joined
1298 2013-04-14 06:09:24 <gmaxwell> Kireji: Consider the fact that the move rpc exists and doesn't create transactions.
1299 2013-04-14 06:09:32 <Kireji> the basic is this, there's a private key, somewhere in my client that is required to sign transactions for the rest of the change in that account.  - my client right now won't show me the address exists, or let me see the private key.  it's like it's pretending change addresses don't exist
1300 2013-04-14 06:09:34 jaequery has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1301 2013-04-14 06:09:56 <gmaxwell> Kireji: it will let you see the private key
1302 2013-04-14 06:10:05 <Kireji> how?
1303 2013-04-14 06:10:11 <gmaxwell> and, as I pointed out, validateaddress tells you that its yours.
1304 2013-04-14 06:10:20 <Kireji> I've asked several times, Luke-Jr said I didn't need to see it
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1307 2013-04-14 06:11:00 <gmaxwell> You don't need to see it— and people have lost coins screwing around with that stuff without completely understanding it, but dumpprivkey will show it to you.   Your wallet must be unlocked first.
1308 2013-04-14 06:11:23 <Kireji> Private key for address 1changeaddressC... is not known
1309 2013-04-14 06:11:30 <rainworm> sorry, delayed response... no, I don't mean encrypting the wallet as a whole; I mean built into the protocol and blockhain... I'm thinking in terms of addresses being generated in two layers: a key + decrypted small string of optional data (e.g. [password(headerkey(data))])
1310 2013-04-14 06:11:35 <rainworm> if set, it would require the pass whenever anything is signed or spent away per key, extra safety for anyone who has their keys stolen yet not unconvenient at the time of purchase
1311 2013-04-14 06:11:36 jaequery has joined
1312 2013-04-14 06:11:41 <Kireji> dumpprivkey doesn't
1313 2013-04-14 06:11:49 jaequery has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1314 2013-04-14 06:11:49 <Kireji> that is exactly what has me worried
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1316 2013-04-14 06:12:18 <Kireji> gmaxwell: on one level you're right - I don't need to see it
1317 2013-04-14 06:12:26 <rainworm> *inconvenient
1318 2013-04-14 06:12:28 <Kireji> I want to know the protocal actually works
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1321 2013-04-14 06:13:08 <gmaxwell> Kireji: it works fine here. You must unlock the wallet first. If you do not unlock it first you get the unknown message.
1322 2013-04-14 06:13:17 <Kireji> one way to know it works is to understand it and be able to see the results of actions that are as I expect them to be
1323 2013-04-14 06:13:29 <Kireji> OH!
1324 2013-04-14 06:13:46 jaequery has joined
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1328 2013-04-14 06:15:56 <Kireji> I'll take down my annouying bug then
1329 2013-04-14 06:17:23 <Luke-Jr> … you were seriously trying to get a private key with your wallet locked? -.-
1330 2013-04-14 06:18:13 <Kireji> Luke-Jr: you cave me incorrect information
1331 2013-04-14 06:18:16 <Kireji> s/gave
1332 2013-04-14 06:18:19 <Kireji> "21:42 < Luke-Jr> Kireji: you can't see it"
1333 2013-04-14 06:18:41 <Kireji> would have saved us all lots of time without that
1334 2013-04-14 06:18:54 <Kireji> gmaxwell: Luke-Jr thank you both for your time and help
1335 2013-04-14 06:19:01 <Luke-Jr> you like taking things out of context, I see. :p
1336 2013-04-14 06:19:07 <Kireji> ???
1337 2013-04-14 06:19:11 <Kireji> howso?
1338 2013-04-14 06:19:47 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1339 2013-04-14 06:20:04 <Kireji> I came into the room saying I couldn't verify that I had my change address
1340 2013-04-14 06:20:24 <Kireji> you said "change is transparent" and "you can'y see it" and then spent 20 minutes arguing it was for my own good
1341 2013-04-14 06:20:59 <Kireji> it turns out to be totally wrong, the client will show it to me, I now have a new command to use showing me the address "ismine" AND I can see the private key
1342 2013-04-14 06:21:20 <Kireji> "you can't see it" is directly in context, and it was incorrect
1343 2013-04-14 06:21:27 execut3 has joined
1344 2013-04-14 06:22:12 <Kireji> tuens out the error message for dumpprivkey for a locked wallet is poor.
1345 2013-04-14 06:22:14 <Kireji> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2523
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1347 2013-04-14 06:22:58 Kireji has left ()
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1349 2013-04-14 06:23:34 <gmaxwell> ;;bc,blocks
1350 2013-04-14 06:23:35 <gribble> 231250
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1354 2013-04-14 06:23:52 <gmaxwell> :-/ stupid catchup on tor.
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1360 2013-04-14 06:31:18 <rainworm> well, anyway, I think it's worth thinking about a type of 2-stage security: [address] from [key + optional, setable pass for encryptable data that acts like salt] to password challenge people (who want that option) at the time of spending or signing, helping protect against theft
1361 2013-04-14 06:31:48 <rainworm> I'll have to think and look later, too tired
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1377 2013-04-14 06:58:01 <muhoo> change addresses have bitten me a few times. but i see why they're necessary
1378 2013-04-14 06:59:00 <phantomcircuit> muhoo, all of my wallets have at least 10k keys pregenerated in the keypool
1379 2013-04-14 06:59:14 <muhoo> it's counter-intuitive to the way we normally think of accounts and money. if you think of tx'es as bills, kind of, it makes sense. when you pay a $2 bill with a $20 you don't  get the original $20 back.
1380 2013-04-14 06:59:19 <phantomcircuit> so backups are good for at least 9900 transactions
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1382 2013-04-14 07:00:55 <muhoo> that's the counterintuitive part, that the return change is pre-generated. and if you spend from an address using a different wallet, that money is not going to go to the change addresses in the original wallet. takes some getting used to
1383 2013-04-14 07:01:42 a_meteorite has joined
1384 2013-04-14 07:01:44 <muhoo> i just funamentally reject being tied to a particular wallet, and want to treat addresses as things, and that always ends in tears.
1385 2013-04-14 07:01:46 <gmaxwell> muhoo: well you're not supposted to think of addresses as accounts at all, unfortunately the block explorer sites have strongly encouraged that thinking.
1386 2013-04-14 07:02:35 <muhoo> it's deeply ingrained from the way fiat bank accounts, credit cards, and such, wor.
1387 2013-04-14 07:02:38 <muhoo> work
1388 2013-04-14 07:02:40 <gmaxwell> muhoo: you should perhaps think of a determinstic address chain as a thing instead.. with single addresses as your 'unit' you're bound to want to do foolish things like reuse them.
1389 2013-04-14 07:02:57 <muhoo> well with armory i can.
1390 2013-04-14 07:02:58 <gmaxwell> muhoo: no, a wallet is the thing analogus to a bank account.
1391 2013-04-14 07:03:01 macboz has joined
1392 2013-04-14 07:03:10 <muhoo> an armory key realy is more like an account
1393 2013-04-14 07:03:53 <muhoo> i don't ahve to back up a wallet. i just have to back up that one key, and i can generate any key from that.
1394 2013-04-14 07:04:17 <muhoo> BIP32 FTW
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1397 2013-04-14 07:10:50 ahbritto has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1398 2013-04-14 07:12:42 <phantomcircuit> valgrind:  Fatal error at startup: a function redirection
1399 2013-04-14 07:12:44 <phantomcircuit> sigh
1400 2013-04-14 07:12:51 <phantomcircuit> missing debug symbols in glibc
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1440 2013-04-14 07:44:45 <shesek> I'm not sure I properly understand something w.r.t fees. If I have 100 different addresses that I got payments too (unique per-user addresses), attempting to send their combined balance to a single address will likely result in fees because of the transaction size. But it seems like doing 100 separate transactions, one from each address, won't have fees. Is that correct?
1441 2013-04-14 07:46:30 Belxjander has joined
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1446 2013-04-14 07:52:52 _yamamushi is now known as yamamushi
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1448 2013-04-14 07:54:01 <gmaxwell> there are a couple different criteria for making a free transaction.
1449 2013-04-14 07:54:09 Gnaf has joined
1450 2013-04-14 07:54:12 <gmaxwell> The main one is priority, and for that one transaction is slightly better than many.
1451 2013-04-14 07:54:39 <gmaxwell> Another, however, is that the whole transaction must be less than 10kbytes... and for that criteria your 100 is probably too much.
1452 2013-04-14 07:55:26 <bbowles> what sorta bandwidth does a bitcoin wallet consume ?
1453 2013-04-14 07:56:48 <Belxjander> bbowles: not very much beyond sync'ing the blockchain at intervals afaik
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1460 2013-04-14 08:00:30 <rusty> Hi all!  Reading https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts, and it's not clear to me how to time-out a contract.  Clue donations welcome...
1461 2013-04-14 08:00:56 <shesek> gmaxwell, wouldn't that make people to prefer lots of small separate transactions, rather than a big one with multiple sources?
1462 2013-04-14 08:01:04 a_meteorite has joined
1463 2013-04-14 08:01:40 <shesek> if its an high-volume ecommerce website that generates a unique address for each payment, moving those funds to a primary address can be quite costly in fees due to the large number of source addresses
1464 2013-04-14 08:02:03 <gmaxwell> shesek: 10k is already almost 100x larger than a typical transaction.
1465 2013-04-14 08:02:22 <gmaxwell> shesek: why would you be moving every transaction to a "primary address" ?! normally addresses should be used only once.
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1468 2013-04-14 08:04:28 <shesek> gmaxwell, bitcoind/qt doesn't seem to handle lots of addresses very well, it becomes unusable at some point
1469 2013-04-14 08:04:52 copumpkin has joined
1470 2013-04-14 08:04:54 <shesek> I tested it with 20K addresses on my computer, it didn't go very well
1471 2013-04-14 08:05:07 <gmaxwell> shesek: I run with that many without any problems.
1472 2013-04-14 08:05:37 quaz0r has joined
1473 2013-04-14 08:05:50 <shesek> well, on my computer it doesn't :O
1474 2013-04-14 08:06:09 <shesek> if you're accepting payments from an high-volume ecommerce, it'll just continue to grow and grow over time. it will become unmanagable at some point
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1477 2013-04-14 08:07:30 <gmaxwell> shesek: Be that as it may bouncing through multiple addresses only increases things, however.
1478 2013-04-14 08:07:32 <shesek> but yeah, sending them all to a single address is an awful idea
1479 2013-04-14 08:08:02 a_meteorite has joined
1480 2013-04-14 08:08:29 <Belxjander> multiple addresses in the same wallet?
1481 2013-04-14 08:08:41 <shesek> another question: bitcoind only allows you to check transactions made to addresses you own, with the private key loaded to bitcoind
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1484 2013-04-14 08:10:23 <shesek> If I want to pre-generate addresses and only store the public keys on the web server, how can I check if the payments were made? is that even possible via bitcoind?
1485 2013-04-14 08:11:04 CodesInChaos has joined
1486 2013-04-14 08:11:42 <shesek> bitcoind doesn't seem very friendly for cold storage
1487 2013-04-14 08:12:20 rottenchris has joined
1488 2013-04-14 08:12:28 <shesek> am I going at it the wrong way? is there some guidelines on how to setup a website that accepts bitcoin payments?
1489 2013-04-14 08:12:56 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1490 2013-04-14 08:13:05 <Belxjander> shesek: "bitpay" ??
1491 2013-04-14 08:13:34 <shesek> I don't want to use any third party service, nor I want to convert it to fiat
1492 2013-04-14 08:13:53 a_meteorite has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1493 2013-04-14 08:14:02 <shesek> I just want to work directly with the p2p network to verify payments
1494 2013-04-14 08:14:51 <shesek> I saw Merchant_Howto and How_to_accept_Bitcoin,_for_small_businesses, but it doesn't seem to address this use-case, which is quite surprising to me
1495 2013-04-14 08:15:18 a_meteorite has joined
1496 2013-04-14 08:16:54 <shesek> to the best of my understanding, the correct way to do that would be to pre-generate public/private key pairs and the derived addresses, store cold the private keys, only store the public address on the web server, than pull unused addresses for each transaction and associate them with a user, and keeping track of payment to those addresses
1497 2013-04-14 08:17:01 <shesek> but it seems to be impossible with bitcoind?
1498 2013-04-14 08:19:39 <gmaxwell> You can do this by keeping a live wallet online with a large pool of precomputed addresses but with an impossible encryption key that never touches that public copy.
1499 2013-04-14 08:20:33 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1500 2013-04-14 08:20:34 <shesek> bitcoind doesn't require to decrypt the wallet in order to keep track of transaction to the addresses?
1501 2013-04-14 08:20:52 <shesek> s/transaction/\0s/
1502 2013-04-14 08:21:12 <gmaxwell> Nope.
1503 2013-04-14 08:21:37 <gmaxwell> only the private keys are encrypted specifically so that the decryption key needs to be present in memory for the shortest amount of time possible.
1504 2013-04-14 08:21:39 <shesek> I guess that could work, but its hardly an optimal way to do that
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1506 2013-04-14 08:23:23 <shesek> perhaps I could write something that takes a list of addresses and generates a wallet.dat that just has some gibrish as the encrypted private keys if they're never going to be used anyway
1507 2013-04-14 08:24:43 <kadoban> shesek: having an impossible passphrase is functionally the same, unless someone is going to break whatever secure algo is used to encrypt wallets
1508 2013-04-14 08:24:59 <bbowles> I plan on tackling those same problems but i haven't even started down that path, yet, shesek
1509 2013-04-14 08:25:13 <shesek> yeah, its just seems like much more of an hassle to do it that way
1510 2013-04-14 08:25:31 <shesek> especially if I want to automate the process of loading new addresses to the webserver when they're about to be all used
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1516 2013-04-14 08:26:34 <shesek> I'm generating random addresses with vanitygen, writing a small script to generate a wallet.dat like I described seems easier than getting it to work with the encryption and everything
1517 2013-04-14 08:27:07 <gmaxwell> ugh
1518 2013-04-14 08:27:19 <gmaxwell> vanity gen generates only addresses that use uncompressed public keys.
1519 2013-04-14 08:27:22 <shesek> but perhaps I'm wrong... is there an easy way to generate addresses and encrypt them using bitcoind?
1520 2013-04-14 08:27:30 <gmaxwell> this basically doubles the size of the spending transactions.
1521 2013-04-14 08:27:56 <shesek> uncompressed public keys?
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1523 2013-04-14 08:28:22 <kadoban> shesek: can't you just use the JSON RPC calls to generate a crapton of addresses, then lock the wallet? not terribly seeing the problem
1524 2013-04-14 08:28:54 <gmaxwell> shesek: Encrypt the bitcoind wallet. Restart. Shut down. set the keypool size to 20,000. Start up. Unlock the wallet once to fill the pool. shut down and set the size back to 100. Backup the wallet.
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1526 2013-04-14 08:30:12 <gmaxwell> shesek: Uncompressed public keys. Not sure if I can unpack that any further. An address generated by vanitygen requires more space to space to spend from because the public key is twice the size.
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1529 2013-04-14 08:32:31 <shesek> can I set the pool size and decrypt the wallet via the bitcoind API?
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1531 2013-04-14 08:33:07 <shesek> it seems like it only lets you encrypt it, but not decrypt it?
1532 2013-04-14 08:33:42 <gmaxwell> You set the pool size from the commandline or the config before startup.  You can unlock the wallet from the api— help doesn't show that api call on a non-encrypted wallet.
1533 2013-04-14 08:33:56 <gmaxwell> Once encrypted there is no way to "decrypt" a wallet, you can only unlock it and change the passphrase.
1534 2013-04-14 08:35:25 <shesek> I see. cool, I'll do that
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1536 2013-04-14 08:36:16 <shesek> is there anything on the wiki (or elsewhere) that explains how to do what I'm trying to do?
1537 2013-04-14 08:36:19 <gmaxwell> shesek: you might want to work thorough all of this with some testnet wallet and testnet coin.. try it all out and be sure you're comfortable with the performance and how it works.
1538 2013-04-14 08:36:28 <gmaxwell> shesek: no idea.
1539 2013-04-14 08:36:32 <shesek> yeah, I am on the testnet
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1542 2013-04-14 08:38:16 <shesek> I expected my use-case to be much more common, but I hardly found any information on that. the wiki pretty much just tells you to use a merchant to handle all that
1543 2013-04-14 08:38:24 saracen2 is now known as saracen
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1545 2013-04-14 08:38:32 <shesek> some information for developers that want to implement payments via bitcoin would probably be helpful
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1548 2013-04-14 08:41:03 <fluffypony> ok so fresh install on an Ubuntu 12.04 LTS headless server
1549 2013-04-14 08:41:11 <fluffypony> blockchain was downloading too slowly
1550 2013-04-14 08:41:26 <fluffypony> so I rm'd blk*.dat and database/log*
1551 2013-04-14 08:41:33 <fluffypony> and downloaded the bootstrap
1552 2013-04-14 08:41:43 <fluffypony> so I've now got bootstrap.dat in .bitcoin
1553 2013-04-14 08:41:47 <fluffypony> and on startup I get this:
1554 2013-04-14 08:41:53 <fluffypony> EXCEPTION: 11DbException
1555 2013-04-14 08:41:53 <fluffypony> Db::open: Invalid argument
1556 2013-04-14 08:41:53 <fluffypony> bitcoin in AppInit()
1557 2013-04-14 08:41:58 <fluffypony> terminate called after throwing an instance of 'DbException'
1558 2013-04-14 08:42:04 <fluffypony>   what():  Db::open: Invalid argument
1559 2013-04-14 08:42:30 <gmaxwell> fluffypony: of what version?
1560 2013-04-14 08:42:42 guruvan has joined
1561 2013-04-14 08:42:46 <fluffypony> lemme check
1562 2013-04-14 08:42:48 <gmaxwell> sounds like you're running an old, busted, slow version. :P
1563 2013-04-14 08:42:53 CodesInChaos has joined
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1565 2013-04-14 08:43:24 <fluffypony> ah
1566 2013-04-14 08:43:24 <fluffypony> yes
1567 2013-04-14 08:43:24 <fluffypony> 0.3.24~dfsg-1
1568 2013-04-14 08:43:26 wrabbit has joined
1569 2013-04-14 08:43:29 <fluffypony> should've build from scratch
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1571 2013-04-14 08:43:37 <gmaxwell> (!*@#!(*@#!
1572 2013-04-14 08:43:54 <shesek> fluffypony, there's an ppa for ubuntu
1573 2013-04-14 08:43:57 <gmaxwell> holy crap, can you tell ubunto to please not ship old, broken, and insecure copies of bitcoin!
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1576 2013-04-14 08:44:30 <fluffypony> and this is why I never have this issue on gentoo
1577 2013-04-14 08:44:34 * fluffypony hugs emerge
1578 2013-04-14 08:44:54 a_meteorite has joined
1579 2013-04-14 08:44:58 <paracyst> seems like half the time nowadays my apt-get update doesn't work properly
1580 2013-04-14 08:45:27 * saracen likes Arch.
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1582 2013-04-14 08:46:59 fluffypony has left ("thanks guys")
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1615 2013-04-14 09:23:47 <a_meteorite> I'm thinking of running a dns seed node, is there any listing I could add my node to once I do? (or get it in the source)
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1625 2013-04-14 09:27:45 <jaakkos> I plotted distribution of bitcoin outputs over time before the market crash in March and after the crash in April: http://www.niksula.cs.hut.fi/~jvsalo/unspent_march.png http://www.niksula.cs.hut.fi/~jvsalo/unspent_april.png
1626 2013-04-14 09:29:28 <a_meteorite> interesting... but I'm not sure what the analysis from that would be
1627 2013-04-14 09:29:56 <a_meteorite> oooh, I see.. easier to flip between tabs
1628 2013-04-14 09:31:04 <jaakkos> what's the nearly 400k spike in 2011? i think there was some exchange that lost their private keys?
1629 2013-04-14 09:31:39 B0g4r7 has joined
1630 2013-04-14 09:32:12 <jaakkos> a_meteorite: i kind of expected to see old outputs disappear after the crash :) well, they did to some extent.
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1633 2013-04-14 09:33:05 <a_meteorite> people cashing out
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1638 2013-04-14 09:34:00 <jaakkos> yep, i think it would be good to have the coins spread over more hands
1639 2013-04-14 09:35:20 <a_meteorite> in principle I agree with that, but I'll just keep holding onto as much BTC as I can :)
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1648 2013-04-14 09:40:17 <a_meteorite> guess some devs are asleep... I'd just do a pull request for a dnsseed but I have a feeling that there's more to it than that
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1658 2013-04-14 09:54:13 <muhoo> so wait, if people are cashing out, that means the coins are getting centralized at these exchanges?
1659 2013-04-14 09:54:26 <sipa> a_meteorite: i have code for running a seed
1660 2013-04-14 09:54:54 <a_meteorite> sipa: indeed, that's what I was looking at
1661 2013-04-14 09:55:18 <a_meteorite> I have several stable servers I could run one on (going to be adding one to the fallback node list)
1662 2013-04-14 09:55:32 <a_meteorite> but it's kinda useless unless it becomes one of the servers to bootstrap
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1666 2013-04-14 09:57:52 <muhoo> jaakkos: what is the green line in that chart?
1667 2013-04-14 09:58:07 <jaakkos> muhoo: cumulative output amount up to that date
1668 2013-04-14 09:59:11 <muhoo> hmm, would it make more sense to show that as a stacked bar chart, with spent/unspent in a single bar?
1669 2013-04-14 09:59:16 <jaakkos> you can see eg. that 50% of all coins (outputs) are older (and younger) than july 2012 in march
1670 2013-04-14 09:59:41 <jaakkos> that 50% shifted by a couple of months forward after the market crash
1671 2013-04-14 10:00:27 <a_meteorite> I wonder how many of those are lost forever
1672 2013-04-14 10:00:52 <muhoo> a_meteorite: the unspents?
1673 2013-04-14 10:00:57 <jaakkos> muhoo: hmm... what would it mean to plot spent coins?
1674 2013-04-14 10:00:58 <a_meteorite> yeah
1675 2013-04-14 10:01:47 <muhoo> jaakkos: oh wait, i see. they are cumulative vs periodic
1676 2013-04-14 10:01:58 <muhoo> so a stacked bar chart isn't right
1677 2013-04-14 10:02:45 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: it looks like your chart shows one block was moved from the fifth week of Bitcoin.
1678 2013-04-14 10:02:58 <muhoo> wow that was one massive selloff in 2011
1679 2013-04-14 10:03:35 <jaakkos> gmaxwell: yes, i noticed it too :)
1680 2013-04-14 10:03:37 <muhoo> wait, i'm misunderstanding that. a massive buy in early 2011?
1681 2013-04-14 10:03:51 <gmaxwell> muhoo: this isn't a chart showing buying and selling.
1682 2013-04-14 10:03:59 <gmaxwell> its just a chart of when coin value was last moved.
1683 2013-04-14 10:04:00 <sipa> a_meteorite: in general the rule for getting listed as a seed in the software is being somewhat trusted/known in the communit
1684 2013-04-14 10:04:42 <muhoo> gmaxwell: but it shows suddenly more unspent in one week than all the cumulative coins. what would have caused that?
1685 2013-04-14 10:04:43 <a_meteorite> sipa: I see. Well I've been around a long time but not very active in the Bitcoin community.
1686 2013-04-14 10:05:00 <a_meteorite> Though I do have a forum account for 2011 and have had this IRC account for... 7+ years. ;)
1687 2013-04-14 10:05:07 <a_meteorite> *from 2011
1688 2013-04-14 10:05:25 <gmaxwell> muhoo: mtgox moving their cold storage wallets or the like
1689 2013-04-14 10:05:25 <jaakkos> muhoo: the y axis are in different scale
1690 2013-04-14 10:05:41 <gmaxwell> and yea, it's certantly not more than all the other ones, see left vs right axis.
1691 2013-04-14 10:05:44 <sipa> a_meteorite: in general, i'm in favor of more seeds running
1692 2013-04-14 10:05:55 <jaakkos> muhoo: the 2011 spike is 400k coins, cumulative over 2000k already
1693 2013-04-14 10:05:55 <sipa> a_meteorite: but perhaps we'll need to change the code to not try all of them anymore
1694 2013-04-14 10:06:12 <muhoo> it's not clear to me which axis goes with which plot line either
1695 2013-04-14 10:06:29 <gmaxwell> muhoo: the big numbers go with the green line.
1696 2013-04-14 10:06:35 <a_meteorite> I could see how you'd want only well-known people running one, it could be possible to seed clients with bad nodes
1697 2013-04-14 10:06:52 <a_meteorite> Though I'm not exactly sure how useful that would be
1698 2013-04-14 10:07:07 <a_meteorite> In terms of being beneficial to an attacker
1699 2013-04-14 10:07:35 <gmaxwell> a_meteorite: thats not really harmful, but a seednode gets a lot of data about who is running bitcoin, and needs to be contactable if there are problems, and competent enough to help address them.
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1703 2013-04-14 10:08:09 <a_meteorite> gmaxwell: Well I'm both of the latter, but it's understandable if no one would take my word for it
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1705 2013-04-14 10:08:24 <jaakkos> does anyone know what the 2011 spike is?
1706 2013-04-14 10:08:35 <jaakkos> i was thinking of http://siliconangle.com/blog/2011/08/01/third-largest-bitcoin-exchange-bitomat-lost-their-wallet-over-17000-bitcoins-missing/
1707 2013-04-14 10:08:42 <sipa> jaakkos: does it correlate with the price spike?
1708 2013-04-14 10:08:46 <jaakkos> but that's only 17k and not at the beginning of the year
1709 2013-04-14 10:08:47 <a_meteorite> Currently run three different servers for various projects, tesla.bzfx.net, marconi.bzfx.net, messier.bzfx.net. Also involved with hosting ZREO (although they're now shutting down :().
1710 2013-04-14 10:09:04 <muhoo> it's early in 2011. the bubble/crash was in may 2011
1711 2013-04-14 10:09:09 <jaakkos> sipa: the price spike comes in july, but the spike is in february
1712 2013-04-14 10:09:20 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: I just assumed it was mtgox moving their wallet.. since they moved 400k btc in one transaction.
1713 2013-04-14 10:09:28 <gmaxwell> but I guess that happened later.
1714 2013-04-14 10:09:33 <jaakkos> gmaxwell: ... and they still have it there?
1715 2013-04-14 10:09:39 <jaakkos> because that chart shows the current situation
1716 2013-04-14 10:09:41 <a_meteorite> We're (BZFX, we have our own channel) are doing a bit of... reorganization
1717 2013-04-14 10:10:22 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: I haven't exactly been following their wallet. Though now that you ask I seem to recall that they broke it into smaller chunks.
1718 2013-04-14 10:10:58 <muhoo> i have to admit i'm interested in using the data in this chart to predict the peak of the next bubble
1719 2013-04-14 10:11:23 <muhoo> there may be some ratio here that could be used for that
1720 2013-04-14 10:12:15 <muhoo> for sure, a huge run-up of utxos looks like it indicates a bubble: people buying to hoard not to spend
1721 2013-04-14 10:12:24 <jaakkos> mtgox holding 400k coins untouched for a couple of years... well, it wouldn't be that strange
1722 2013-04-14 10:12:41 <jaakkos> gmaxwell: the spike actually consists of many outputs that were generated nearly at the same time
1723 2013-04-14 10:13:49 <diki> gmaxwell:lol one letter wrong and their coins lost forever
1724 2013-04-14 10:14:14 <sipa> jaakkos: the firstbits rush?
1725 2013-04-14 10:14:31 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: pretty cool that this thread caused a bump visible on this chart: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=139581.0
1726 2013-04-14 10:15:01 <gmaxwell> sipa: the chart is value, I assume people didn't use large amounts of btc for their firstbits rush
1727 2013-04-14 10:15:16 <sipa> ok
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1729 2013-04-14 10:15:55 <muhoo> gmaxwell: correlation/causality ?
1730 2013-04-14 10:16:34 <muhoo> what is a firstbits rush?
1731 2013-04-14 10:16:50 <diki> muhoo:I'd like to know too.
1732 2013-04-14 10:17:39 <jaakkos> gmaxwell: i see, at the end of january
1733 2013-04-14 10:18:40 <sipa> muhoo: when firstbits was introduced, people spammed the blockchain (and the UTXO) set with very small transactions to claim their address
1734 2013-04-14 10:19:09 <wallet42> its like when facebook created vanity adresses
1735 2013-04-14 10:19:21 <gmaxwell> sipa: hm, still could have caused it if people moved 50 btc generation txn to do it.
1736 2013-04-14 10:19:46 <sipa> right, so not the firstbits themself, but the involved change
1737 2013-04-14 10:19:47 <wallet42> everyone rushed to create pages to claim some fb.com/$vanity url
1738 2013-04-14 10:20:34 <jaakkos> i also hadn't heard about the firstbits rush :)
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1740 2013-04-14 10:21:32 <wallet42> well i dont think it was THAT bad
1741 2013-04-14 10:21:51 <kodkod> i'm looking for some documentation on how to make a pool can anyone please link me?
1742 2013-04-14 10:23:07 <wallet42> https://blockchain.info/address/1FacebooKcsPLpPhqMzSDZakKbjmB4jqsD
1743 2013-04-14 10:23:17 <wallet42> there you see all claimed adresses
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1745 2013-04-14 10:23:50 <wallet42> well not "all" but some
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1750 2013-04-14 10:31:40 <paulo_> are there any rules on designing p2p networks?
1751 2013-04-14 10:31:43 <paulo_> like a guide?
1752 2013-04-14 10:32:08 <paulo_> like, how many should a node connect to keep the network healthy.
1753 2013-04-14 10:32:15 <paulo_> and no, I'm not building a botnet
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1755 2013-04-14 10:32:54 <wallet42> 5-100
1756 2013-04-14 10:32:58 <wallet42> should be fine
1757 2013-04-14 10:33:00 <wallet42> i guess
1758 2013-04-14 10:33:07 <sipa> depends on the application, i think
1759 2013-04-14 10:33:13 <sipa> how important latency is
1760 2013-04-14 10:33:33 <sipa> what the ratio of connectable nodes to unconnectiable ones is
1761 2013-04-14 10:33:46 jtimon has joined
1762 2013-04-14 10:33:59 <sipa> whether you want sybil resistance at all
1763 2013-04-14 10:34:04 <Garr255> something that might interest you guys: #noobcoin
1764 2013-04-14 10:34:21 <Garr255> we've been trying to make an alt coin all night, and I think I've got it :P
1765 2013-04-14 10:35:04 <wallet42> whats the usp of noobcoin?
1766 2013-04-14 10:35:08 <Garr255> I'm the only one awake atm :P
1767 2013-04-14 10:35:27 <Garr255> wallet42, usp?
1768 2013-04-14 10:35:28 <sipa> Garr255: change network magic, genesis block, p2p port perhaps, address version byte, ...
1769 2013-04-14 10:35:43 <wallet42> unique selling point
1770 2013-04-14 10:35:45 RoboTeddy has joined
1771 2013-04-14 10:36:04 <wallet42> if you have a product, you convice customers to buy yours not the one of the competitor becaus ....
1772 2013-04-14 10:36:10 <sipa> but if that's all you change, there's little point in doing it
1773 2013-04-14 10:36:11 <Garr255> wallet42, absolutely nothing. we're just figuring out how to do it right now, then publishing that information.
1774 2013-04-14 10:36:18 <sipa> except as an excercise, i guess
1775 2013-04-14 10:37:08 <Garr255> I'm learning a lot about the bitcoin code, so I consider it personally productive if nothing else
1776 2013-04-14 10:37:20 <wallet42> which is totally fine :)
1777 2013-04-14 10:37:50 ColinT has joined
1778 2013-04-14 10:38:02 <paulo_> it should be easy to make a barebones altcoin. removing all the complications, like the internal CPU thing.
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1782 2013-04-14 10:41:47 <wallet42> holy shit
1783 2013-04-14 10:42:25 <wallet42> http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2011/12/19/an-mit-magic-trick-computing-on-encrypted-databases-without-ever-decrypting-them/
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1789 2013-04-14 10:43:44 <paulo_> wallet42: homeomorphic encrpytion? relatively new, but it's been here for a few years.
1790 2013-04-14 10:44:26 <paulo_> but is there actually a guide on the internet I can use for p2p'ing?
1791 2013-04-14 10:44:47 <wallet42> i knew about paillier which totally blew my mind already
1792 2013-04-14 10:48:14 <_dr> yeah, homomorphic encryption is nice
1793 2013-04-14 10:48:31 <_dr> if you hadn't blow up 1k of data to 1gb to use it ;)
1794 2013-04-14 10:49:44 Casimir1904 has joined
1795 2013-04-14 10:51:48 <sipa> details!
1796 2013-04-14 10:51:51 <wallet42> well i think this is just the beginning and still: whats the gb price today? 0.00051948 BTC?
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1823 2013-04-14 11:25:01 <paulo_> I have a question
1824 2013-04-14 11:25:13 <paulo_> since nodes receive blocks at different times
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1826 2013-04-14 11:25:22 <volante> hi.  i'm using bitcoin-qt and i want to be able to use the json rpc interface.  is there a way I can enable this?  and any docs on how I would connect etc?
1827 2013-04-14 11:25:28 <paulo_> what if some nodes calculate the difficulty differently?
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1830 2013-04-14 11:27:01 <gmaxwell> paulo_: the difficulty is computed from the timestamps in the blocks themselves its an exact function of the blockchain.
1831 2013-04-14 11:27:36 <gmaxwell> volante: in bitcoin.conf  add server=1  rpcuser=something  and rpcpassword=jriwjriwurieurabunchofcrampyoullneverneedtorember2394204923042
1832 2013-04-14 11:27:44 <paulo_> gmaxwell: up to how much are the timestamps allowed to drikt?
1833 2013-04-14 11:27:46 <gmaxwell> volante: then you can use bitcoin getinfo
1834 2013-04-14 11:27:47 <paulo_> *drift
1835 2013-04-14 11:28:14 <gmaxwell> paulo_: they're constrained to be greater than the median of the last 11 blocks and no more than 2 hours in the future.
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1837 2013-04-14 11:29:22 <HM2> hmmm
1838 2013-04-14 11:29:29 <HM2> i take it this has been discussed to death already http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/04/12/what-bitcoin-teaches-us-about-the-internets-energy-use/
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1841 2013-04-14 11:30:11 <HM2> woe is me, the slow redditor
1842 2013-04-14 11:30:20 <volante> gmaxwell: im just running bitcoin-qt for osx (i downloaded the standard binaries).  is this feature available with that?  i can't see any .conf file included with it
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1844 2013-04-14 11:31:09 <gmaxwell> volante: you can create a conf file in the same directory as the wallet.dat
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1847 2013-04-14 11:31:40 <paulo_> why the design choice to spend an output fully?
1848 2013-04-14 11:33:15 <gmaxwell> paulo_: because it's all insane otherwise.
1849 2013-04-14 11:33:49 <paulo_> gmaxwell: please explain.
1850 2013-04-14 11:34:51 <gmaxwell> I have 10 btc, I spend 5 to alice. Then I spend 5 to bob. But then something goes wrong and I need to redo the transaction to bob so I make a second to bob.  then oops. the two to bob confirm and the one to alice does not.
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1852 2013-04-14 11:36:03 <gmaxwell> thats just one example. Basically it makes things far more brittle and harder to reason about. The potential validity of a transaction becomes conditional on mixtures of other transactions.
1853 2013-04-14 11:36:39 <a_meteorite> I found a really old wallet and dumped it with pywallet... there are quite a few transactions in there that blockchain.info can't find
1854 2013-04-14 11:36:53 <a_meteorite> That shouldn't happen... right?
1855 2013-04-14 11:37:02 <sipa> a_meteorite: if they are unconfirmed, that's perfectly possible
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1857 2013-04-14 11:37:26 <a_meteorite> It seems they were generations (50 BTC payouts)
1858 2013-04-14 11:37:41 <a_meteorite> I was getting my hopes up that maybe I had successfully mined some blacks back in the day
1859 2013-04-14 11:37:42 <sipa> stale blocks?
1860 2013-04-14 11:37:48 <a_meteorite> Dunno..
1861 2013-04-14 11:37:56 <shesek> volante, you can also run it with the -server argument (i.e. `bitcoin-qt -server`)
1862 2013-04-14 11:38:03 <sipa> it's not a testnet walet, is it?
1863 2013-04-14 11:38:19 <a_meteorite> I never played with testnet until recently, so no
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1866 2013-04-14 11:38:40 <a_meteorite> I think it's safe to pastebin the tx object
1867 2013-04-14 11:38:49 <a_meteorite> since that doesn't have any private keys, right?
1868 2013-04-14 11:38:51 <sipa> sure
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1870 2013-04-14 11:39:54 <paulo_> gmaxwell: ok. so basically it makes every transaction different.
1871 2013-04-14 11:40:07 <volante> thanks.  so if my wallet is passphrased, does the rpc interface not allow the caller to do things that would require the passphrase?
1872 2013-04-14 11:40:22 <sipa> volante: it does, you need to issue walletunlock first
1873 2013-04-14 11:40:37 <sipa> volante: or walletpassphrase, forgot the name
1874 2013-04-14 11:40:47 <a_meteorite> sipa: http://pastebin.com/0tF0LsZD
1875 2013-04-14 11:41:15 <a_meteorite> that's a bummer if I generated blocks back in the day and they were all orphaned :D
1876 2013-04-14 11:42:15 <gmaxwell> paulo_: it makes the transactions into a directed acyclic graph with no parallel paths (it's the blockchain's job to remove all parallel paths completely)
1877 2013-04-14 11:43:30 <a_meteorite> "prevout_hash": "0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000" that can't be right...
1878 2013-04-14 11:43:49 <a_meteorite> or wait... I don't know exactly what generations look like so maybe
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1882 2013-04-14 11:43:52 <sipa> a_meteorite: that's a generation
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1885 2013-04-14 11:44:39 <a_meteorite> sipa: so if I can't find the tx_id's on blockchain.info then it seems all my blocks were probably never broadcasted right/orphaned
1886 2013-04-14 11:45:14 <a_meteorite> if so, biggest letdown ever when I remembered I had an old wallet :)
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1894 2013-04-14 11:48:22 <paulo_> i'm planning to make an altcoin just for fun, like #noobcoin . but unlike noobcoin, mine will be written from scratch, implementing only the bare essentials.
1895 2013-04-14 11:49:10 <a_meteorite> Hm, I did find 5 BTC.. so I guess that's nice. not as nice as 400 BTC :)
1896 2013-04-14 11:49:48 <paulo_> a_meteorite: tried undelete programs?
1897 2013-04-14 11:50:14 <a_meteorite> paulo_: I'm pretty sure I never deleted any wallets ever, it's just I thought I had mined some back in the day
1898 2013-04-14 11:50:21 r0kis has quit (Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.)))
1899 2013-04-14 11:50:35 <a_meteorite> it looks like I did but for some unfortunate reason they never made it into the blockchain
1900 2013-04-14 11:51:55 <a_meteorite> Jul 12, 2010... kinda neat to know the date I first got involved :D
1901 2013-04-14 11:52:03 <sipa> :o
1902 2013-04-14 11:52:06 <sipa> that's before me!
1903 2013-04-14 11:52:18 <a_meteorite> drwx------ 1 99 99     9 Jul 12  2010 Bitcoin
1904 2013-04-14 11:53:19 <denisx> sipa: when did you start?
1905 2013-04-14 11:53:28 <sipa> denisx: dec 2010
1906 2013-04-14 11:53:55 <paulo_> I started sometime before the $30 bubble
1907 2013-04-14 11:54:15 <paulo_> the blockchain was sub-GB
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1909 2013-04-14 11:54:58 <a_meteorite> ahh.. nostalgia
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1911 2013-04-14 11:55:17 <a_meteorite> back when the faucet gave out 5 BTC
1912 2013-04-14 11:55:28 <a_meteorite> well, maybe not around the $30 bubble, but when I got in
1913 2013-04-14 11:55:49 <volante> so this 'bitcoin' command (eg. bitcoin getinfo) - where do I get that?  I can't find any bitcoin executable packaged with my bitcoin-qt
1914 2013-04-14 11:56:50 TD has joined
1915 2013-04-14 11:56:51 <sipa> volante: there is bitcoind and bitcoin-qt
1916 2013-04-14 11:58:09 <paulo_> though, when I got it, they were already considering removing the cpu mining option in the client.
1917 2013-04-14 12:00:38 <volante> sipa: right, so i need a different package?  where do I get that for osx?  cant find it on bitcoin.org
1918 2013-04-14 12:00:50 <sipa> volante: oh, the OSX package doesn't have bitcoind
1919 2013-04-14 12:01:00 <sipa> volante: but you can use the debug console in bitcoin-qt to do the same
1920 2013-04-14 12:01:47 <denisx> I have a bitcoind for OSX
1921 2013-04-14 12:01:57 <t7> if my elliptic curve is of the order n, then my public_key_integer and both coords of my private key are mod n right?
1922 2013-04-14 12:01:58 <volante> i want to make a script to use the api.  i was going to just make it a simple shell script using the bitcoin command, but i guess it sounds like i'll need to use perl or something to call the api directly
1923 2013-04-14 12:02:00 <denisx> but you should not use a bitcoind from anyone ;)
1924 2013-04-14 12:02:19 <sipa> t7: no
1925 2013-04-14 12:02:29 <sipa> t7: public keys are not integers, but points
1926 2013-04-14 12:02:40 <sipa> t7: private keys are integers, and they are indeed mod n
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1928 2013-04-14 12:02:46 <sipa> t7: the coordinates of a public key are mod p
1929 2013-04-14 12:02:51 <sipa> (the size of the field)
1930 2013-04-14 12:02:53 <t7> private key is the scalar whoops
1931 2013-04-14 12:03:03 <sipa> and p is typically not the same as n
1932 2013-04-14 12:03:09 <t7> ah ok
1933 2013-04-14 12:03:09 <sipa> but in the same order of magnitude
1934 2013-04-14 12:03:12 i2pRelay has joined
1935 2013-04-14 12:03:27 <sipa> t7: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Secp256k1
1936 2013-04-14 12:03:32 <sipa> it lists p and n for secp256k1
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1938 2013-04-14 12:06:15 <t7> thankyou kindly
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1972 2013-04-14 12:41:57 <Plinker_> http://techcrunch.com/2013/04/08/how-to-mine-bitcoins/
1973 2013-04-14 12:42:06 Plinker_ is now known as Plinker
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1979 2013-04-14 12:45:49 <Jik123456> how i improve clockin on my video card amd radeon 7770 hd
1980 2013-04-14 12:45:49 <Jik123456> <Jik123456> how much is good and memory how much is lower need for good
1981 2013-04-14 12:46:22 <Jik123456> i want speed up my mhsasha
1982 2013-04-14 12:46:26 daybyter has joined
1983 2013-04-14 12:46:42 <sipa> Jik123456: #bitcoin-mining
1984 2013-04-14 12:47:24 Elmf has joined
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1994 2013-04-14 12:51:33 <savetheinternet> this might be a stupid question, but how can I see the inputs (ie. sender public address[es]) for a transaction using the bitcoin JSON-RPC API?
1995 2013-04-14 12:51:36 skinnkavaj has joined
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1997 2013-04-14 12:52:18 <sipa> savetheinternet: inputs do not have an address
1998 2013-04-14 12:52:35 <savetheinternet> okay, i don't entirely understand the blockchain/bitcoin protocol
1999 2013-04-14 12:52:42 <sipa> savetheinternet: you can look up the previous transactions whose outputs where spent, and determine the address they were sent to
2000 2013-04-14 12:53:05 <sipa> savetheinternet: but if you don't know what you're doing, you're better off assuming that bitcoin transaction do not have a "from" address
2001 2013-04-14 12:53:09 darkee has joined
2002 2013-04-14 12:53:22 <savetheinternet> blockchain.info makes it look so simple
2003 2013-04-14 12:53:34 <sipa> too simple
2004 2013-04-14 12:54:28 <Plinker> When someone makes money where does that come from sipa?
2005 2013-04-14 12:54:49 <sipa> Plinker: those who pay him?
2006 2013-04-14 12:55:24 <Plinker> So essentially many lose for one to win?
2007 2013-04-14 12:56:05 <sipa> ?
2008 2013-04-14 12:56:18 <Plinker> Those who pay lose in other words...
2009 2013-04-14 12:56:28 <sipa> if they were losing, they wouldn't be paying
2010 2013-04-14 12:56:38 <sipa> people do business because it's mutually beneficial
2011 2013-04-14 12:56:40 <savetheinternet> another question -- does bitcoin-rpc not let me use getrawtransaction on transactions that aren't "mine" or something? is there any way to view information about another transaction? i get a "No information available about transaction (code -5)" error
2012 2013-04-14 12:57:21 <sipa> savetheinternet: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/9147/getrawtransaction-error-code-5/9152#9152
2013 2013-04-14 12:57:39 <Plinker> But with a limited pool someone must lose for others to gain sipa
2014 2013-04-14 12:57:46 parasciidic has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2015 2013-04-14 12:57:55 <savetheinternet> thanks for your answers sipa
2016 2013-04-14 12:58:01 zylex` has joined
2017 2013-04-14 12:58:26 <sipa> savetheinternet: may i ask what you need it for?
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2020 2013-04-14 12:59:00 <sipa> Plinker: i am hungry, starving to death, but i have bitcoin; you have no money, but a farm... i give you a bitcoin for a bread
2021 2013-04-14 12:59:09 <savetheinternet> i'm building a thing for my local bitcoin wallet, but now it looks like a lot of stuff is going to be outside the scope of my project
2022 2013-04-14 12:59:22 i2pRelay has joined
2023 2013-04-14 12:59:32 <sipa> Plinker: where's the problem?
2024 2013-04-14 12:59:40 <sipa> Plinker: also, off-topic here
2025 2013-04-14 12:59:44 <savetheinternet> it's basically just a simple web interface to bitcoin-qt, using RPC. so far it can do most stuff, sending transactions, receiving, viewing client info, connected peers, etc
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2028 2013-04-14 13:00:23 <sipa> savetheinternet: no need for getrawtransaction then
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2033 2013-04-14 13:02:01 <zylex`> I really need help with syncing in 0.8.1 windows version, anyone that can help me? bootstrap dosent even work. it is styck in 0.00% after hour. netlimiter says 2kb/s download a upload
2034 2013-04-14 13:02:16 <zylex`> In versions 0.7 and below i sync with no problem at all
2035 2013-04-14 13:02:20 bit32 has joined
2036 2013-04-14 13:02:26 <sipa> zylex`: can you put your debug.log somewhere?
2037 2013-04-14 13:02:35 <zylex`> where can i ifnd it
2038 2013-04-14 13:02:50 Squeezle has joined
2039 2013-04-14 13:03:00 <sipa> see https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Data_directory
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2041 2013-04-14 13:04:24 <vrs> ohai stee
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2043 2013-04-14 13:05:12 <zylex`> got any suggestions where to put log file?
2044 2013-04-14 13:05:27 <sipa> zylex`: pastebin?
2045 2013-04-14 13:05:42 <zylex`> ty
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2050 2013-04-14 13:08:25 <savetheinternet> one more question -- is there a simple way to view the final balance of a specific address? not just the total received?
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2052 2013-04-14 13:10:00 <zylex`> should i clean it?
2053 2013-04-14 13:10:02 <zylex`> its pretty big
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2055 2013-04-14 13:10:17 <sipa> savetheinternet: addresses do not have a balance
2056 2013-04-14 13:10:44 <sipa> savetheinternet: bitcoin does not function in terms of ledgers or balances, even though the wallet and sites like blockchain.info show it that way
2057 2013-04-14 13:11:03 <sipa> savetheinternet: every transaction consumes some coins, and creates new coins
2058 2013-04-14 13:11:07 <savetheinternet> okay, i'm underestimating the complexity of bitcoin i think
2059 2013-04-14 13:11:13 <savetheinternet> blockchain.info's wallet just makes it look so simple
2060 2013-04-14 13:11:21 <ali1234> savetheinternet: just query the blockchain.info api
2061 2013-04-14 13:12:02 <sipa> savetheinternet: when creating a transaction, you explicitly specify which previous transactions' outputs you want to spend, and they are consumed entirely
2062 2013-04-14 13:12:24 <sipa> savetheinternet: the only thing that matters is that all previous outputs still exist, and that their value matches the outputs of your new transaction
2063 2013-04-14 13:12:42 <sipa> a "balance" is just a sum of the values of unspent transaction outputs
2064 2013-04-14 13:12:53 <sipa> coin == unspent transaction output
2065 2013-04-14 13:12:57 melvster1 has joined
2066 2013-04-14 13:13:09 <sipa> zylex`: whatever you can upload
2067 2013-04-14 13:13:10 <zylex`> sipa: http://pastebin.com/8jbTLJ19
2068 2013-04-14 13:13:15 <melvster1> anybody know who looks after bitcoin.it ?
2069 2013-04-14 13:13:43 <sipa> zylex`: start your client with -reindex
2070 2013-04-14 13:13:49 <sipa> zylex`: on the command line
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2072 2013-04-14 13:14:12 <zylex`> bitcoing-qt.exe?
2073 2013-04-14 13:14:20 <sipa> zylex`: yes, so bitcoin-qt.exe -reindex
2074 2013-04-14 13:14:28 <sipa> zylex`: it seems your block database is corrupted
2075 2013-04-14 13:14:42 <sipa> and the client didn't detect it
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2077 2013-04-14 13:15:09 <zylex`> now things are moveing
2078 2013-04-14 13:15:16 <zylex`> lets hope it did the trick
2079 2013-04-14 13:15:23 <zylex`> i reinstalled like 30 times
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2081 2013-04-14 13:15:27 <sipa> it'll take up to a few hours, depending on hardware
2082 2013-04-14 13:15:28 <zylex`> deleted roaming folder
2083 2013-04-14 13:15:41 <zylex`> wich hardware it depends most on?
2084 2013-04-14 13:16:05 <zylex`> already 10%
2085 2013-04-14 13:16:07 <sipa> disk speed and CPU
2086 2013-04-14 13:16:13 <zylex`> ssd <3
2087 2013-04-14 13:16:24 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2088 2013-04-14 13:16:28 sanchaz has joined
2089 2013-04-14 13:16:30 <sipa> if you have lots of ram, you can start with -dbcache=NUMBER
2090 2013-04-14 13:16:37 <zylex`> thanks alot for your help
2091 2013-04-14 13:16:43 <sipa> where NUMBER is a number in megabytes to use for in-memory cache
2092 2013-04-14 13:16:53 <zylex`> i got 8gb only, worth it?
2093 2013-04-14 13:16:56 <sipa> yes
2094 2013-04-14 13:17:01 <sipa> up to something like 1000 (a gigabyte) helps a lot
2095 2013-04-14 13:18:08 <zylex`> i can set maxconnections also?
2096 2013-04-14 13:18:23 <sipa> yes
2097 2013-04-14 13:18:28 <sipa> but that doesn't matter here
2098 2013-04-14 13:18:32 <zylex`> kk
2099 2013-04-14 13:19:28 <zylex`> wel i think ill order some food and let this run for a while
2100 2013-04-14 13:19:36 <median^> sipa: can the balance be represented as getreceivedbyaddress - getsentbyaddress ?
2101 2013-04-14 13:19:39 <zylex`> is it faster with a bootstrap now btw?
2102 2013-04-14 13:20:03 implr has joined
2103 2013-04-14 13:20:20 <sipa> zylex`: you already have all blocks on disk, no need for bootstrap.dat anymore
2104 2013-04-14 13:20:24 <sipa> median^: yes and no
2105 2013-04-14 13:20:36 <sipa> median^: "balance of an address" is perfectly well defined
2106 2013-04-14 13:20:42 <sipa> median^: it's just not very useful
2107 2013-04-14 13:20:56 <sipa> (and misleading)
2108 2013-04-14 13:21:00 <zylex`> sipa: is that because i synced on 0.7 complete?
2109 2013-04-14 13:21:08 <median^> how do you determine how much is unspent then?
2110 2013-04-14 13:21:25 <sipa> median^: by keeping an explicit set of unspent coins
2111 2013-04-14 13:21:34 <sipa> that's what the wallet does behind the scenes
2112 2013-04-14 13:21:43 <zylex`> 32% already, goes pretty quick
2113 2013-04-14 13:22:06 <sipa> zylex`: 90% of the time will be spent in the last 10% of blocks
2114 2013-04-14 13:22:16 <zylex`> why is that?
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2118 2013-04-14 13:22:33 <sipa> because they are larger
2119 2013-04-14 13:22:39 <sipa> and signature checking is enabled there
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2123 2013-04-14 13:23:16 <median^> is that why for example https://blockchain.info/tx/de0462e55e7a74c225ef7501522af7b1da97d22f57a3826761dc3c8b1e739995 this transaction sends the entire balance from an address to an recepient and then the rest to itself? do you have to send the entire balance of an address?
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2125 2013-04-14 13:23:29 <ali1234> yes
2126 2013-04-14 13:23:33 <sipa> ADDRESSES DO NOT HAVE A BALANCE!!!
2127 2013-04-14 13:23:35 <ali1234> wait no
2128 2013-04-14 13:23:41 <ali1234> the entire balance of the coin
2129 2013-04-14 13:23:51 <sipa> you always spend a coin entirely
2130 2013-04-14 13:23:57 <sipa> and you explicitly refer to the coin you're spending
2131 2013-04-14 13:24:05 <sipa> it has to exist
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2133 2013-04-14 13:24:13 <sipa> it has no balance- either it exists or it doesn't
2134 2013-04-14 13:24:21 <sipa> it's really like coins in your wallet
2135 2013-04-14 13:24:22 <median^> ok "output" the btc
2136 2013-04-14 13:24:23 <ali1234> *value
2137 2013-04-14 13:24:32 <sipa> you talk about how much money is in there, and it makes sense
2138 2013-04-14 13:24:42 Jik123456 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2139 2013-04-14 13:24:44 <sipa> but just knowing how much in total is there doesn't allow you to do payments
2140 2013-04-14 13:24:59 Scrat has joined
2141 2013-04-14 13:25:04 <sipa> you need to give a specific combination of coins to match what you're paying
2142 2013-04-14 13:25:09 <sipa> and give those exact coins
2143 2013-04-14 13:25:15 <sipa> and if it's too much, you get change back
2144 2013-04-14 13:26:50 <denisx> I can start my bitcoind but not the qt-app anymore, it says:
2145 2013-04-14 13:26:51 <denisx> Error initializing database environment /Users/denis/Library/Application Support/Bitcoin! To recover, BACKUP THAT DIRECTORY, then remove everything from it except for wallet.dat
2146 2013-04-14 13:27:04 <denisx> what could be the problem?
2147 2013-04-14 13:27:21 <sipa> denisx: first, don't do that; the message is outdated, you only need to delete the database/ dir
2148 2013-04-14 13:27:30 rdymac has joined
2149 2013-04-14 13:27:36 <sipa> denisx: and that bitcoind works but bitcoin-qt doesn't is very weird
2150 2013-04-14 13:27:52 <sipa> are they from the same package? built with the same bdb version?
2151 2013-04-14 13:28:05 <denisx> maybe not
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2154 2013-04-14 13:30:25 <denisx> ok, now it starts after I deleted the database dir
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2157 2013-04-14 13:32:23 <ali1234> wait, what is "bitcoind listaddressgroupings"
2158 2013-04-14 13:32:55 <sipa> ali1234: lists which of your addresses are already exposed to be linked to eachother
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2160 2013-04-14 13:33:33 <ali1234> what is the number listed after each address?
2161 2013-04-14 13:34:53 <sipa> the "balance" of the address :)
2162 2013-04-14 13:35:00 * sipa doesn't sound very convincing, does he?
2163 2013-04-14 13:35:25 <sipa> it's the sum of the unspent coins assigned to that address
2164 2013-04-14 13:35:38 <ali1234> why is that misleading?
2165 2013-04-14 13:35:51 <sipa> because it makes you think that that is how the bitcoin protocol works
2166 2013-04-14 13:36:01 <sipa> but it's not, it's just how wallets present it
2167 2013-04-14 13:36:01 <ali1234> what if i don't care how it works though?
2168 2013-04-14 13:36:17 <ali1234> or - why is how it works important for users?
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2170 2013-04-14 13:36:34 <sipa> it's not, but they make wrong assumptions easily
2171 2013-04-14 13:37:05 <sipa> see http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1bdbsk/bitcoin_client_developers_default_to_sending/ for example
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2173 2013-04-14 13:37:43 <sipa> if you never reason in terms of "balance of an address", you won't make the mistake of thinking that backing up the key belonging to your addresses is enough to secure your savings
2174 2013-04-14 13:38:02 <ali1234> good point
2175 2013-04-14 13:38:17 <sipa> it's not how the wallet works, and not how the protocol works
2176 2013-04-14 13:38:28 <sipa> but it is possible to look at it that way, and in some cases it makes sense
2177 2013-04-14 13:38:34 <ali1234> addresses don't have a balance in the sense that if you "send" x amount "from" an address, the address won't necessarily have previous balance - x in it afterwards
2178 2013-04-14 13:38:50 <ali1234> which is a good enough reason for me
2179 2013-04-14 13:38:56 <sipa> well it will
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2181 2013-04-14 13:39:14 <sipa> but the transaction doesn't "send from an address", it sends a coin that was assigned to that address
2182 2013-04-14 13:39:28 <ali1234> that is why i put "send" and "from" in quotes
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2184 2013-04-14 13:39:54 <sipa> right
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2186 2013-04-14 13:43:57 <ali1234> i guess the point here is that if ii'm messing around with addresses instead of just having a wallet then i probably care how it actually works
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2190 2013-04-14 13:47:32 <ali1234> how does listaddressgroupings decide if teh addresses are linked?
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2192 2013-04-14 13:49:23 <wallet42> i think it is when you're using multiple addresses in one transaction (input)
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2194 2013-04-14 13:50:24 <wallet42> since the transaction is only valid if every input is signed, you must have had every  pvt key for every one of them
2195 2013-04-14 13:50:55 <wallet42> but its only a guess
2196 2013-04-14 13:51:36 <ali1234> sounds reasonable
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2198 2013-04-14 13:52:02 <sipa> indeed
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2207 2013-04-14 13:55:52 <ali1234> hmm... so let's say i'm worried my wallet.dat has been compromised and i want to sweep my entire wallet to new one
2208 2013-04-14 13:56:14 <ali1234> it's actually better to send every coin to a new unique address, than to make a new address for each old address
2209 2013-04-14 13:56:38 <robbak> Much better. You also clean yuor UTXO dust from the blockchain.
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2211 2013-04-14 13:56:56 <ali1234> UTXO?
2212 2013-04-14 13:57:03 <ali1234> no, you misunderstand what i meant
2213 2013-04-14 13:57:12 <ali1234> i'm saying make a new address for each coin
2214 2013-04-14 13:57:29 malaimo has joined
2215 2013-04-14 13:57:29 <robbak> Unspent TransaXion Outputs.
2216 2013-04-14 13:57:35 spooky_ has joined
2217 2013-04-14 13:58:44 <wallet42> ~ 4 220 836 UTXO on the blockhain right now
2218 2013-04-14 13:59:46 <wallet42> on ~ 1.3M adresses
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2220 2013-04-14 14:00:08 <robbak> 'A Coin' does not exist. I had this wrong, thinking of coins being broken up and maybe rejoined.
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2222 2013-04-14 14:00:26 <wallet42> thats (one) beauty of bitcoin
2223 2013-04-14 14:00:30 bit32_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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2225 2013-04-14 14:01:27 <robbak> 25BTC are mined. When some are spent, these 25 are destroyed, and new coins of 24.8 and .2 created. Another
2226 2013-04-14 14:01:48 <ali1234> you just said "a coin" does not exist
2227 2013-04-14 14:01:55 <ali1234> now you are saying coins are created
2228 2013-04-14 14:02:03 <ali1234> which is it?
2229 2013-04-14 14:02:07 <robbak> transaction might use those .2 plus .8 from elsewhere, and a new UTXO, ( or coin) is created with a value of 1BTC
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2232 2013-04-14 14:03:49 <robbak> So making individual transactions for each of your UTXOs would be silly, IMHO. Much better to consolidate them to some extent. One transaction with all your UTXOs as input, and one new address as an output.
2233 2013-04-14 14:03:49 <wallet42> simply think of satoshis
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2235 2013-04-14 14:04:05 <wallet42> then the analogy is almost correct again
2236 2013-04-14 14:04:22 <ali1234> i have three options in the above case:
2237 2013-04-14 14:04:27 <robbak> Or, with the client, Send your entire balance to a new address and wallet.
2238 2013-04-14 14:04:46 <ali1234> 1. create a new address, send entire balance to it. now all my UTXO are linked together for anyone who cares to look
2239 2013-04-14 14:04:58 <robbak> No. You then have only 1 UTXO
2240 2013-04-14 14:04:59 <wallet42> you always have to spent the WHOLE output
2241 2013-04-14 14:05:10 <robbak> And we are all happy.
2242 2013-04-14 14:05:55 <robbak> There are also a bunch of redemed outputs, of historical interest only.
2243 2013-04-14 14:05:58 <ali1234> 2. for each address in my wallet, send all the UTXO assigned to it to a new address
2244 2013-04-14 14:07:01 <ali1234> this prevents the addresses from being linked but does not stop it happening in the future
2245 2013-04-14 14:07:15 <robbak> 2. is a 'huh, why?'. You'd only do that if you thought it important that all those historical outputs remain seperate: for privacy reasons, perhaps.
2246 2013-04-14 14:07:25 <ali1234> robbak: yes exactly
2247 2013-04-14 14:07:30 <wallet42> i have a questioin
2248 2013-04-14 14:07:48 <robbak> Q away.
2249 2013-04-14 14:07:51 <ali1234> 3. for each UTXO, send it to a new address
2250 2013-04-14 14:08:02 <wallet42> suppose every output from every block until block 1000 would be spent
2251 2013-04-14 14:08:20 <wallet42> could we just delete those blocks?
2252 2013-04-14 14:08:24 <robbak> Now you are just being ridiculous
2253 2013-04-14 14:08:43 <sipa> wallet42: we can always delete blocks
2254 2013-04-14 14:08:52 <sipa> wallet42: the UTXO set is kept separately
2255 2013-04-14 14:09:12 <robbak> wallet42: There are plans to prune the blockchain is just that manner, some time down the track.
2256 2013-04-14 14:09:15 <sipa> however, you still need blocks to bootstrap new nodes
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2258 2013-04-14 14:09:27 <wallet42> so it would be possible to prune the chain?
2259 2013-04-14 14:09:31 <sipa> sure
2260 2013-04-14 14:09:40 <sipa> it's almost trivial since the 0.8 database changes
2261 2013-04-14 14:09:44 <wallet42> only UTXO are neded?
2262 2013-04-14 14:09:51 <sipa> depends for wat
2263 2013-04-14 14:09:59 <wallet42> lets say a lightwight client
2264 2013-04-14 14:10:07 <robbak> The blockchain is needed to verify those UTXOs
2265 2013-04-14 14:10:10 <sipa> a lightweight client doesn't even need UTXOs
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2267 2013-04-14 14:10:17 <sipa> they just need block headers
2268 2013-04-14 14:10:32 <wallet42> well he needs to know where his outputs are...
2269 2013-04-14 14:10:40 <sipa> that why they have a wallet
2270 2013-04-14 14:10:43 <daybyter> anyone with this problem: undefined reference to `boost::chrono::system_clock::now()'
2271 2013-04-14 14:10:47 <ali1234> the recommendation is to never reuse an address correct?
2272 2013-04-14 14:10:51 <sipa> daybyter: -lboost_chrono
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2274 2013-04-14 14:11:00 <daybyter> thanks!
2275 2013-04-14 14:11:02 <sipa> ali1234: indeed
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2277 2013-04-14 14:11:19 <ali1234> therefore that would mean every address would have a sngle UTXO assigned to it
2278 2013-04-14 14:11:34 <robbak> ali1234: correct.
2279 2013-04-14 14:11:45 i2pRelay has joined
2280 2013-04-14 14:11:45 <ali1234> thus my method 3 is the "recommended" way to sweep a wallet/address
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2282 2013-04-14 14:12:12 <sipa> well if the addresses are already linked, there's no reason to send their coins to separate new address
2283 2013-04-14 14:12:22 <ali1234> true
2284 2013-04-14 14:12:26 <robbak> Multiple addresses with single outputs are no more of a problem on the chain as multiple outputs on a single address
2285 2013-04-14 14:12:29 <ali1234> so method 2 then :)
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2287 2013-04-14 14:12:45 <sipa> even less, if two addresses are linked, you can send their coins to one single new address
2288 2013-04-14 14:12:50 <sipa> so between 1 and 2 :)
2289 2013-04-14 14:13:04 <robbak> OK, method 2. Sometimes mess is important to people.
2290 2013-04-14 14:13:36 <ali1234> hmm... method 3 would be worse for privacy actually
2291 2013-04-14 14:13:57 <ali1234> because each UTXO would be smaller, tthere would be more chance that they would have to be combined
2292 2013-04-14 14:14:53 <ali1234> though i suppose the client is smart enough to pick already linked addresses now
2293 2013-04-14 14:16:32 <sipa> it isn't :)
2294 2013-04-14 14:16:42 <sipa> it's pretty dumb
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2296 2013-04-14 14:17:15 <ali1234> so method three is pretty rubbish then really
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2376 2013-04-14 15:09:42 epylar has joined
2377 2013-04-14 15:09:52 <epylar> Why is this channel being logged without a topic notification?
2378 2013-04-14 15:10:10 xenesis_ has joined
2379 2013-04-14 15:10:15 <epylar> see http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2013/04
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2382 2013-04-14 15:13:19 <HM2> epylar: be thankful it's not indexed by nick :P
2383 2013-04-14 15:13:36 vmd_ has joined
2384 2013-04-14 15:13:47 <epylar> you can still google search by nick.
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2390 2013-04-14 15:15:32 <HM2> epylar: hmm....good point
2391 2013-04-14 15:15:49 xenesis has joined
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2393 2013-04-14 15:15:55 <HM2> epylar: the thing about irc though is you can't stop anyone from logging anyway
2394 2013-04-14 15:16:02 <epylar> right
2395 2013-04-14 15:16:14 <michagogo> HM2: Freenode policy is no public logging without notification
2396 2013-04-14 15:16:16 <sipa> i think it's freenode policy that you have to announce it nonetheless
2397 2013-04-14 15:16:30 <michagogo> .acl
2398 2013-04-14 15:16:32 <michagogo> gah
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2400 2013-04-14 15:16:50 <HM2> pfft, policies
2401 2013-04-14 15:16:54 <HM2> what are they good for
2402 2013-04-14 15:18:24 <lenny__> hello, I have been working on building a new bitcoin site to watch transaction volume, graph it and other stuff. I have been using a web socket to interact with blockchain but is there anyway I can have a connection always open to blockchain even if no one is on the site for writing to a database.
2403 2013-04-14 15:18:40 xenesis_ has joined
2404 2013-04-14 15:18:52 <HM2> clearly we need a log resistant, public key based blinded scheme for channel nicks
2405 2013-04-14 15:19:11 <epylar> we could all set our nicks to bitcoin addresses
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2435 2013-04-14 15:32:26 <saracen> epylar: IRC nickname cannot begin with a number :(
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2461 2013-04-14 15:42:33 <Alina-malina> ;; help
2462 2013-04-14 15:42:34 <gribble> The bot responds when you start a line with the ! character. A good starting point for exploring the bot is the !facts command. You can also visit the bot's website for a list of help topics and documentation: http://gribble.sourceforge.net/
2463 2013-04-14 15:42:41 <Alina-malina> ;;help
2464 2013-04-14 15:42:41 <gribble> The bot responds when you start a line with the ! character. A good starting point for exploring the bot is the !facts command. You can also visit the bot's website for a list of help topics and documentation: http://gribble.sourceforge.net/
2465 2013-04-14 15:42:47 <Alina-malina> !help
2466 2013-04-14 15:42:48 <gribble> The bot responds when you start a line with the ! character. A good starting point for exploring the bot is the !facts command. You can also visit the bot's website for a list of help topics and documentation: http://gribble.sourceforge.net/
2467 2013-04-14 15:42:58 <Alina-malina> !facts
2468 2013-04-14 15:42:58 <gribble> To see a nice sortable web view of all factoids, click here: http://gribble.dreamhosters.com/viewfactoids.php?db=%23bitcoin-dev || To see a list of the most popular factoids, run !rank || To search factoids, run !factoids search <yoursearchterm>
2469 2013-04-14 15:43:18 <Alina-malina> !auth
2470 2013-04-14 15:43:18 <gribble> (auth <nick>) -- Initiate authentication for user <nick>. You must have registered a GPG key with the bot for this to work. You will be given a random passphrase to clearsign with your key, and submit to the bot with the 'verify' command. Your passphrase will expire within 10 minutes.
2471 2013-04-14 15:43:25 <Alina-malina> auth Alina-malina
2472 2013-04-14 15:43:28 robocoin has joined
2473 2013-04-14 15:43:31 <Alina-malina> !auth Alina-malina
2474 2013-04-14 15:43:31 <gribble> Error: You have not registered a GPG key. Try using bcauth instead, or register a GPG key first.
2475 2013-04-14 15:44:00 <HM2> Alina-malina: gribble will respond to PMs
2476 2013-04-14 15:44:11 <Alina-malina> oh thank you:)
2477 2013-04-14 15:44:26 <Alina-malina> just start to exploring it
2478 2013-04-14 15:45:55 tvbcof has joined
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2483 2013-04-14 15:50:15 hsmithsN7_ has joined
2484 2013-04-14 15:51:06 <HM2> so sup Alina-malina
2485 2013-04-14 15:51:39 robocoin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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2487 2013-04-14 15:52:24 <Alina-malina> HM2, ok, i will try to ask my question. I am willing to compile my own bitcoin (like litecoin namecoin etc....) but i am not sure from what to start, what i need to change in source code of and which source code should i use to make my own system, separated from bitcoin or litecoin or others?
2488 2013-04-14 15:52:39 robocoin has joined
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2490 2013-04-14 15:53:38 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2491 2013-04-14 15:53:41 <HM2> Alina-malina: i can only speculate about the procedure.
2492 2013-04-14 15:54:00 <Alina-malina> HM2, ok, tell me what you think
2493 2013-04-14 15:54:36 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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2496 2013-04-14 15:55:00 <HM2> you'd want to fork bitcoin itself, then remove all the DNS seeds so your client didn't connect to the bitcoin network. you'd want to change the network identifier in the protocol (testnet has a different one to mainnet), probably the default port number. You'd also want to establish a new genesis block and remove the checkpoints the devs have put in for the current blockchain
2497 2013-04-14 15:55:06 <HM2> I'm not sure what else
2498 2013-04-14 15:55:30 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2499 2013-04-14 15:55:47 <sipa> and change the address format
2500 2013-04-14 15:55:58 <HM2> ah yeah that as well
2501 2013-04-14 15:56:00 <Alina-malina> fork bitcoin? which one the bitcoind?
2502 2013-04-14 15:56:02 i2pRelay has joined
2503 2013-04-14 15:56:17 <HM2> Alina-malina: the Qt ui and bitcoind are both part of the same repo
2504 2013-04-14 15:56:23 <sipa> Alina-malina: why do you want an altcoin anyway?
2505 2013-04-14 15:56:56 <Alina-malina> sipa, it is a long term venture investment that me and my close friend want to do, we are just enthusiasts
2506 2013-04-14 15:57:15 <jgarzik> Alina-malina: Step 1: change pchMessageStart and the genesis block
2507 2013-04-14 15:57:33 <sipa> Alina-malina: that's not a reason
2508 2013-04-14 15:57:39 <Alina-malina> sipa, what you mean?
2509 2013-04-14 15:57:52 <sipa> what do you want to change?
2510 2013-04-14 15:57:54 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2511 2013-04-14 15:58:03 <sipa> in what ways will your coin be different than bitcoin or litecoin?
2512 2013-04-14 15:58:27 <Alina-malina> it is not going to be different, i even dont think it is going to be public
2513 2013-04-14 15:58:37 <sipa> then why do you want to fork it?
2514 2013-04-14 15:58:47 Alina-malina has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2515 2013-04-14 15:58:57 <sipa> sounds like you rather want something like testnet-in-a-box
2516 2013-04-14 15:59:02 Alina-malina has joined
2517 2013-04-14 15:59:09 <Alina-malina> Alina-malina is now registered to merchant5555@yahoo.com, with the password dklfjgldkfjlgk.
2518 2013-04-14 15:59:24 <sipa> ...
2519 2013-04-14 15:59:28 <Alina-malina> oups
2520 2013-04-14 15:59:35 <sipa> you may want to change that password
2521 2013-04-14 15:59:42 <Alina-malina> :)
2522 2013-04-14 15:59:44 <Alina-malina> yes sure
2523 2013-04-14 16:00:07 <HM2> at least it's a good password
2524 2013-04-14 16:00:23 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2525 2013-04-14 16:00:43 <sipa> it looks like random keyboard hitting
2526 2013-04-14 16:00:52 <HM2> it's all on the same row of the qwerty
2527 2013-04-14 16:01:05 <HM2> finger start positions and all that
2528 2013-04-14 16:02:05 <HM2> i type like a 3 fingered monkey on crack
2529 2013-04-14 16:02:34 <Sliver> I usually just smash the keyboard couple of times and add capital letters in between if there are none :D
2530 2013-04-14 16:02:50 <Sliver> result is 10-20 random chars
2531 2013-04-14 16:02:52 andytoshi has joined
2532 2013-04-14 16:02:57 <Alina-malina> :) i am back here
2533 2013-04-14 16:03:07 <t7> hunter2
2534 2013-04-14 16:03:10 datagutt_ has joined
2535 2013-04-14 16:03:22 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
2536 2013-04-14 16:03:25 <sipa> 17:40:53 < t7> *******
2537 2013-04-14 16:03:33 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2538 2013-04-14 16:03:35 <t7> Sliver: that is far from random
2539 2013-04-14 16:03:49 <sipa> it's certainly random, but not uniformly
2540 2013-04-14 16:04:05 i2pRelay has joined
2541 2013-04-14 16:04:09 <Alina-malina> sipa, no it is random there is no any special algo
2542 2013-04-14 16:04:13 <Sliver> of course it isnt perfect random, but random enough for password
2543 2013-04-14 16:04:52 <Sliver> only real constant thing in it is that capitals are added if not found
2544 2013-04-14 16:05:04 <Alina-malina> HM2, so what is the github source code should i use for sure?
2545 2013-04-14 16:05:18 <Sliver> so in that case if someone knew that, he would strip trying password without capitals
2546 2013-04-14 16:05:27 <t7> geiger meter as a seed or go home
2547 2013-04-14 16:05:30 <HM2> Alina-malina: you should review the hardfork wishlist on the bitcoin wiki if you do fork bitcoin. you might want to correct a few flaws with the current system before you establish stability
2548 2013-04-14 16:05:40 <Sliver> t7, :D
2549 2013-04-14 16:05:53 <HM2> Alina-malina: bitcoin/bitcoin repo
2550 2013-04-14 16:08:11 <jgarzik> You want to fork bitcoin, but cannot even find the code?
2551 2013-04-14 16:09:25 <Alina-malina> i have the code that HM2 on my computer a couple of months, but i was not sure, because last time people here telling me that i should use other one, thats why i am asking, thanks to HM2
2552 2013-04-14 16:09:42 orblivion has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2553 2013-04-14 16:10:28 <t7> dont fork bitcoin, write a new base
2554 2013-04-14 16:10:41 <t7> ive already started this
2555 2013-04-14 16:11:06 <HM2> Alina-malina: well, good luck with your experiment
2556 2013-04-14 16:11:07 <t7> gonna make a little paper on how crypto currency works for nubs
2557 2013-04-14 16:11:19 Odyessus has joined
2558 2013-04-14 16:11:29 <t7> also so i have a solid understanding
2559 2013-04-14 16:11:31 <Alina-malina> t7, do you have any papers for me? It would be awesome, please if you can
2560 2013-04-14 16:11:36 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2561 2013-04-14 16:12:08 i2pRelay has joined
2562 2013-04-14 16:12:16 <wumpus> the bitcoin paper has some references
2563 2013-04-14 16:12:29 <sipa> \o/ 2 days work, 3us speedup
2564 2013-04-14 16:12:29 _pr has joined
2565 2013-04-14 16:13:12 <wumpus> 3us? wow :p
2566 2013-04-14 16:13:31 <sipa> wumpus: 99us -> 96us :)
2567 2013-04-14 16:13:53 <sipa> (secp256k1 ecdsa verification)
2568 2013-04-14 16:14:17 <wumpus> a 3% speed gain, that's decent :)
2569 2013-04-14 16:14:30 <wumpus> sounds better that way 
2570 2013-04-14 16:14:36 <saracen> :D
2571 2013-04-14 16:14:38 <sipa> right!
2572 2013-04-14 16:15:23 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
2573 2013-04-14 16:15:25 <defunctzombie> question: why is the wallet backup file from "backupwallet" smaller than the original wallet file?
2574 2013-04-14 16:15:35 <t7> sipa you working off the openssl code?
2575 2013-04-14 16:15:48 <HM2> sipa: is that 64bit?
2576 2013-04-14 16:16:14 <sipa> t7: no, from scratch
2577 2013-04-14 16:16:16 <sipa> HM2: yes
2578 2013-04-14 16:16:21 mintmoney has joined
2579 2013-04-14 16:16:25 <sipa> HM2: 32-bit is still at 400us or so
2580 2013-04-14 16:16:38 <t7> does it beat my haskell code :P
2581 2013-04-14 16:16:54 <t7> with lazyness(tm)
2582 2013-04-14 16:17:10 <wumpus> defunctzombie: that doesn't make sense, afaik it's simply copied
2583 2013-04-14 16:17:40 <sipa> t7: i know haskell's virtues well enough, but when optimizing for performance, you'll have a hard tme beating C + assembly
2584 2013-04-14 16:18:09 <HM2> and functions in C can be declared pure
2585 2013-04-14 16:18:33 <sipa> it's now entirely dynamic-memory-free
2586 2013-04-14 16:18:52 <HM2> Sorry,
2587 2013-04-14 16:18:54 <sipa> (except maybe inside a gmp)
2588 2013-04-14 16:18:54 <HM2> this tree took too long to generate.
2589 2013-04-14 16:18:56 * HM2 slaps github
2590 2013-04-14 16:19:16 Tamarack has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2591 2013-04-14 16:19:23 <t7> you might wanna write your own 256bit maths
2592 2013-04-14 16:19:25 banghouse has joined
2593 2013-04-14 16:19:34 <sipa> t7: i did
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2595 2013-04-14 16:19:40 <sipa> several implementations already
2596 2013-04-14 16:19:57 <t7> GMP still faster?
2597 2013-04-14 16:20:06 <sipa> ?
2598 2013-04-14 16:20:10 i2pRelay has joined
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2600 2013-04-14 16:20:20 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Sayonara)
2601 2013-04-14 16:20:24 <sipa> not for these specific operations, no
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2604 2013-04-14 16:20:58 <sipa> i have separate implementations for scalars and field elements
2605 2013-04-14 16:21:20 mercerist has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2606 2013-04-14 16:21:23 <sipa> scalars can be implemented using gmp's mpz, gmp's mpn, or openssl's bn
2607 2013-04-14 16:21:55 <sipa> for field elems i have an implementation in x86_64 asm (not my onw), one using __int128, one using just uint64_t, and one using gmp's mpn
2608 2013-04-14 16:21:59 Odyessus has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
2609 2013-04-14 16:22:09 <sipa> which is faster for each depends on the platform
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2613 2013-04-14 16:23:59 <HM2> dumb question, by field elements you mean the modular arithmetic mod p?
2614 2013-04-14 16:24:13 <sipa> yes
2615 2013-04-14 16:24:13 Prattler has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2616 2013-04-14 16:24:32 <sipa> and scalars is mostly arithmetic mod n
2617 2013-04-14 16:24:49 <t7> could you queue up lots and do it on GPU?
2618 2013-04-14 16:24:57 <sipa> but the types of frequent operations is so different that it warrants a separate implementation
2619 2013-04-14 16:25:10 <sipa> t7: possibly, but i'm not going to bother with that now
2620 2013-04-14 16:25:25 <sipa> i'm already 6x faster than OpenSSL on this system, feels good enough :)
2621 2013-04-14 16:25:46 <t7> this is only an issue when validating the blockchain to begin with, right?
2622 2013-04-14 16:25:55 <sipa> for now
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2630 2013-04-14 16:28:58 <HM2> very nice clean code sipa
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2632 2013-04-14 16:30:31 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2633 2013-04-14 16:30:49 Grouver has joined
2634 2013-04-14 16:30:52 <sipa> thx :)
2635 2013-04-14 16:32:04 <HM2> have you disassembled any of those functions in field_5x52?
2636 2013-04-14 16:32:48 <HM2> they look ripe for restricted pointer tweaks when inlined
2637 2013-04-14 16:32:48 <sipa> my asm-fu is weak
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2647 2013-04-14 16:38:37 <HM2> ah arguments seem to be aliased quite a bit
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2651 2013-04-14 16:43:09 <sipa> HM2: just pushed an update
2652 2013-04-14 16:43:13 <SomeoneWeird> <sipa> i'm already 6x faster than OpenSSL on this system, feels good enough :) < dayum, nice
2653 2013-04-14 16:43:20 <FlyingLeap> defunctzombie: maybe u r using encryption
2654 2013-04-14 16:43:28 <FlyingLeap> defunctzombie: and weren't earlier?
2655 2013-04-14 16:43:34 <sipa> FlyingLeap: irrelevant
2656 2013-04-14 16:43:36 tvbcof has left ("WeeChat 0.4.0")
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2658 2013-04-14 16:44:11 <FlyingLeap> ok, wonder why his wallet shrunk, seemed like a good explanation.
2659 2013-04-14 16:44:16 i2pRelay has joined
2660 2013-04-14 16:44:45 <FlyingLeap> if you add a passphrase to non encrypted wallet, its size won't shrink?
2661 2013-04-14 16:44:58 <sipa> it will
2662 2013-04-14 16:45:06 <sipa> but backupwallet still just copies the file
2663 2013-04-14 16:45:15 <sipa> whether it's encrypted or not doesn't matter
2664 2013-04-14 16:45:20 <FlyingLeap> yeah maybe he checked earlier though, for the first #.
2665 2013-04-14 16:45:24 <HM2> sipa: tbh i think your code should go in to bitcoin or bitcoinj, i have as much faith in you as i do the openssl devs who have been known to produce some wicked code and gaffs
2666 2013-04-14 16:46:09 orblivion has joined
2667 2013-04-14 16:46:14 <sipa> HM2: when i've added a shitload of unit tests, and have some smart people look over it, i'll consider that
2668 2013-04-14 16:46:36 <sipa> HM2: i already have a bitcoin patch to use it, by the way
2669 2013-04-14 16:46:39 <HM2> bitcoin has enough media attention atm that i would think some decent cryptographers would review the code so they can writeoff a 6x speedup
2670 2013-04-14 16:47:03 daveluke has quit (Quit: daveluke)
2671 2013-04-14 16:47:13 <FlyingLeap> i read an article about a security guy who recently did, kaminsky i think.
2672 2013-04-14 16:47:24 <sipa> FlyingLeap: that's 2 years old research
2673 2013-04-14 16:47:30 <sipa> he wrote about it again, though
2674 2013-04-14 16:47:32 <FlyingLeap> "I Tried Hacking Bitcoin And I Failed"
2675 2013-04-14 16:47:34 <FlyingLeap> oh
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2678 2013-04-14 16:48:12 Plornt is now known as ALTNICK!Plornt@cpc11-bexl7-2-0-cust189.2-3.cable.virginmedia.com|Plornt
2679 2013-04-14 16:48:19 wrabbit has joined
2680 2013-04-14 16:48:33 <HM2> FlyingLeap: he also did a presentation on his review at blackhat
2681 2013-04-14 16:48:43 BenderCoin has joined
2682 2013-04-14 16:48:46 <HM2> err defcon
2683 2013-04-14 16:49:07 <HM2> one of them
2684 2013-04-14 16:49:15 flatfly has quit (Quit: Yo!)
2685 2013-04-14 16:49:27 <FlyingLeap> yes so it is at least getting some review
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2694 2013-04-14 16:59:10 <MC1984> sipa youve spd validation up 6x over openssl?
2695 2013-04-14 16:59:30 <sipa> on 64-bit, yes
2696 2013-04-14 16:59:41 <MC1984> thats some fine work
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2699 2013-04-14 17:00:05 <sipa> MC1984: not validation, actually
2700 2013-04-14 17:00:11 <sipa> MC1984: ECDSA signature checking
2701 2013-04-14 17:00:19 i2pRelay has joined
2702 2013-04-14 17:00:22 <MC1984> isnt it the same thing
2703 2013-04-14 17:00:25 [\\\] has joined
2704 2013-04-14 17:00:26 <sipa> there's some bitcoin-specific overhead per signature as well
2705 2013-04-14 17:00:30 <sipa> and i haven't reduced that
2706 2013-04-14 17:00:42 freeroute has quit (Quit: $quitmsg)
2707 2013-04-14 17:00:51 <sipa> plus, maintainance of the UTXO set also costs time, which doesn't change
2708 2013-04-14 17:01:32 <MC1984> every bit helps
2709 2013-04-14 17:01:59 <MC1984> is there some hesitation moving away from openssl though
2710 2013-04-14 17:02:16 <MC1984> crypto is hard...
2711 2013-04-14 17:02:50 random_cat has joined
2712 2013-04-14 17:03:04 <sipa> i'd love to move away from openssl for many reasons
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2714 2013-04-14 17:03:29 <MC1984> bruce schiner (?) looked at it recently and said basically the cypto is sound, i wonder if someone like him could do it again
2715 2013-04-14 17:03:46 <sipa> schneider
2716 2013-04-14 17:04:08 <MC1984> yea
2717 2013-04-14 17:04:11 <HM2> schneier is a busy man, i suspect he just reviewed an overview of how it worked
2718 2013-04-14 17:04:24 <sipa> yes, he even said he didn't dig deep
2719 2013-04-14 17:04:33 <HM2> he's a bit of a rockstar cryptographer so people will expect him to comment on a rockstar cryptocurrency
2720 2013-04-14 17:05:06 <MC1984> hmm bitcoin is like a metastatation of a cypherpunks wet dream, you d think there would be more publicly trying to break it
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2724 2013-04-14 17:07:39 <BCB> ;;ticker --last
2725 2013-04-14 17:07:40 <gribble> 100.00000
2726 2013-04-14 17:07:42 <BCB> ;;goxlag
2727 2013-04-14 17:07:47 <gribble> MtGox lag is 0.851025 seconds. During this time, light travels 0.00170544457145 AU. You could have sent a bitcoin across the outer diameter of Saturn's rings (0.0024 AU).
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2741 2013-04-14 17:22:09 <paulo_> how big is the nonce?
2742 2013-04-14 17:22:17 <sipa> which one?
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2744 2013-04-14 17:22:29 <paulo_> the one used when generating blocks
2745 2013-04-14 17:22:31 <sipa> which one?
2746 2013-04-14 17:22:33 Belxjander has joined
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2748 2013-04-14 17:22:42 <sipa> there's one in the headers, and another one in the coinbase
2749 2013-04-14 17:22:44 <paulo_> the one changed when generating hashes
2750 2013-04-14 17:22:51 <sipa> 32 bits
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2754 2013-04-14 17:23:10 <paulo_> how big is a timestamp?
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2757 2013-04-14 17:23:17 <sipa> 32 bits
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2764 2013-04-14 17:27:57 <HM2> the timestamp is 32bits? |:
2765 2013-04-14 17:28:18 <sipa> even 16 bits wouldn't be a problem
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2767 2013-04-14 17:29:55 <HM2> what's the format?
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2770 2013-04-14 17:32:17 <HM2> hmm unix timestamp, fair enough
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2777 2013-04-14 17:42:28 <[joe_k]> is it possible to uncompress a compressed pubkey in more than one valid way?
2778 2013-04-14 17:42:44 <[joe_k]> about a quarter of the time my test case fails to reproduce the original pubkey
2779 2013-04-14 17:42:49 <[joe_k]> but 3/4.... it works????
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2781 2013-04-14 17:44:22 <[joe_k]> im doing ysquared = x**3 + a*x**2 + b; taking discrete square root and getting two points, and choosing which ever one is of the right sign
2782 2013-04-14 17:45:05 <[joe_k]> er, evenness (not sign)
2783 2013-04-14 17:45:10 <sipa> that sounds correct
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2786 2013-04-14 17:45:48 <paulo_> what's with all the double hashing?
2787 2013-04-14 17:45:59 orblivion has joined
2788 2013-04-14 17:46:00 <sipa> paulo_: ask satoshi
2789 2013-04-14 17:46:08 stalled has joined
2790 2013-04-14 17:47:28 <sipa> ;;blocks
2791 2013-04-14 17:47:29 <gribble> 231334
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2795 2013-04-14 17:50:22 <paulo_> heh.
2796 2013-04-14 17:52:18 <vrs> perhaps he assumed an attack on a hash function wouldn't work as well as on the double hash
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2800 2013-04-14 17:54:49 <sipa> vrs: yes, i fear so
2801 2013-04-14 17:55:07 <[joe_k]> is it that when you create a privkey, you try to compress and uncompress it to make sure it matches, or else you discard it?
2802 2013-04-14 17:55:12 <[joe_k]> so there just aren't any that decode wrong?
2803 2013-04-14 17:55:36 <sipa> [joe_k]: no need for that; every valid privkey has exactly one compressed and one uncompressed form for its public key
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2805 2013-04-14 17:56:00 <[joe_k]> well dang. i have no idea what i'm doing wrong 1/4 of the time
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2812 2013-04-14 18:02:37 <godzilla123> any cryptographers here
2813 2013-04-14 18:03:15 savetheinternet has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2814 2013-04-14 18:03:20 <godzilla123> I have an idea tht increases the anoonymity of bitcoin transactions but need an expert to review it
2815 2013-04-14 18:03:34 <godzilla123> if someone who understand cryptography is here, please pm me
2816 2013-04-14 18:04:02 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2817 2013-04-14 18:04:08 <godzilla123> also need help with a proof
2818 2013-04-14 18:04:14 <godzilla123> reductionist proof
2819 2013-04-14 18:04:34 i2pRelay has joined
2820 2013-04-14 18:06:22 <godzilla123> when messaging, please mention something where I can check your background
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2895 2013-04-14 18:58:19 <MC1984> anyone else notice the wierd hebrew version of bitcoin wallet on play store
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2899 2013-04-14 19:02:27 <Luke-Jr> Goonie_: poke
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2902 2013-04-14 19:05:49 <MC1984> "eran shlomo"
2903 2013-04-14 19:05:53 <MC1984> is the author
2904 2013-04-14 19:06:22 <saracen> Could somebody tell me what file handles importprivkey? bitcoinrpc makes reference to the function, but I cannot find it, and github search is failing
2905 2013-04-14 19:06:30 <saracen> bitcoinrpc.cpp*
2906 2013-04-14 19:06:36 <sipa> rpcdump
2907 2013-04-14 19:07:03 <saracen> thank you
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2911 2013-04-14 19:07:34 <michagogo> MC1984: Hmm? I'd take a look if I had an Android device
2912 2013-04-14 19:07:49 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2913 2013-04-14 19:07:50 <michagogo> MC1984: Oh, does Play have a web interface?
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2916 2013-04-14 19:08:33 <MC1984> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.bitcoin_wallet.com&feature=search_result#?t=W251bGwsMSwyLDEsImNvbS5iaXRjb2luX3dhbGxldC5jb20iXQ.. wat
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2928 2013-04-14 19:12:44 <michagogo> MC1984: Okay, what about it?
2929 2013-04-14 19:13:05 <MC1984> seems dodgy
2930 2013-04-14 19:13:14 <michagogo> Why?
2931 2013-04-14 19:13:42 <MC1984> like  a straight rip of the real wallet, screenshots too
2932 2013-04-14 19:13:55 <michagogo> I'd imagine the Israeli, Android-using, non English-speaking audience would use it
2933 2013-04-14 19:14:00 <michagogo> Or something
2934 2013-04-14 19:14:01 <MC1984> mixed up the testnet logo with mainnet one too
2935 2013-04-14 19:14:22 <michagogo> אני לא יודע.
2936 2013-04-14 19:14:44 <MC1984> the shildbach wallet has translations
2937 2013-04-14 19:15:26 <MC1984> if this guy wants a hebrew version he would have done better to just do hebrew translations for inclusion
2938 2013-04-14 19:15:46 saulimus has joined
2939 2013-04-14 19:16:07 <[joe_k]> is there a page somewhere I can enter some key data and see if how it decodes it
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2952 2013-04-14 19:23:34 <Luke-Jr> sipa: should update doc/release-notes to include these various other version locations
2953 2013-04-14 19:23:52 <sipa> those didn't get updated either?
2954 2013-04-14 19:24:12 <DunnoNL> Hey guys. I'm starting to understand the general framework of Bitcoin and bitcoind and I would like some feedback on a programming concept. I would like to accept payments from users. For every payment I create a new address (and a new account, because I can't check the address balance). When the account balance reaches the amount that has to be paid, the customer is forwarded to another...
2955 2013-04-14 19:24:14 <DunnoNL> ...page and the payment is sent to the main address. I have my doubts about this setup because when I clean out the account it's left with a -0.005 balance or some other negative value (because of transaction fees).  Is there a better way to do this?
2956 2013-04-14 19:24:15 <Luke-Jr> ?
2957 2013-04-14 19:24:26 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2958 2013-04-14 19:24:46 <Luke-Jr> DunnoNL: don't resend your income :/
2959 2013-04-14 19:25:08 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
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2961 2013-04-14 19:25:12 <DunnoNL> Yeah, that's exactly where I'm stuck.
2962 2013-04-14 19:25:43 <jouke> DunnoNL: you could use "move" to get it out of the account of the user
2963 2013-04-14 19:25:53 franl has quit (Quit: O Elbereth!  Gilthoniel!  We still remember ...)
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2966 2013-04-14 19:26:30 <DunnoNL> jouke. Incredible. So simple, yet so effective! :)
2967 2013-04-14 19:26:31 <jouke> DunnoNL: there are also ways to check the mount you received from an address.
2968 2013-04-14 19:26:56 <sipa> jouke: transactions don't have a "from" address
2969 2013-04-14 19:27:01 <Luke-Jr> DunnoNL: also, what are you accepting payments for?
2970 2013-04-14 19:27:11 <jouke> That is how we use it (bitonic.nl ;)) Btw, there is also a dutch channel: #bitcoin-nl.
2971 2013-04-14 19:27:11 <Luke-Jr> sipa: he meant *on* an address :P
2972 2013-04-14 19:27:18 <sipa> oh
2973 2013-04-14 19:27:18 <jouke> exactly
2974 2013-04-14 19:27:19 * jouke tired
2975 2013-04-14 19:27:28 <sipa> yes, listreceivedbyaddress
2976 2013-04-14 19:30:47 <Luke-Jr> why does Bitcoin-Qt have like 3 or 4 levels of abstraction on the same exact functions now? -.-
2977 2013-04-14 19:31:15 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: multi-wallet support
2978 2013-04-14 19:31:39 <wumpus> (at least I suppose you mean the walletstack etc)
2979 2013-04-14 19:32:25 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: yes, but surely multi-wallet support shouldn't require so many levels
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2981 2013-04-14 19:32:28 <Luke-Jr> 1 should be enough
2982 2013-04-14 19:32:41 <wumpus> well, feel free to improve it...
2983 2013-04-14 19:32:51 <roconnor> hi sipa
2984 2013-04-14 19:32:59 i2pRelay has joined
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2986 2013-04-14 19:33:04 <sipa> hi there roconnor!
2987 2013-04-14 19:33:04 <wumpus> or discuss with CodeShark at least
2988 2013-04-14 19:33:35 kodkod has left ()
2989 2013-04-14 19:33:45 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: see also doc/multiwallet-qt.txt
2990 2013-04-14 19:34:11 ubias has joined
2991 2013-04-14 19:34:12 <roconnor> sipa: have there been any developments on light clients with hash-trees of outstanding coins in the last year?  (either with bitcoin or another coin)
2992 2013-04-14 19:34:27 <Luke-Jr> roconnor! ltns!
2993 2013-04-14 19:34:32 Haifisch has joined
2994 2013-04-14 19:34:41 <roconnor> ltns?
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2996 2013-04-14 19:35:09 <sipa> roconnor: there's been a lot of talk, but no implementations that are finished, afaik
2997 2013-04-14 19:35:30 <sipa> ltns = long time no see
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2999 2013-04-14 19:35:51 <roconnor> Luke-Jr: good to see you again too
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3003 2013-04-14 19:37:25 <roconnor> sipa: btw, where do you fall on the sha vs scrypt POW debate?
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3007 2013-04-14 19:37:44 <Luke-Jr> there's a debate? lol
3008 2013-04-14 19:38:05 <HM2> the hardware used for hashing doesn't matter much, does it?
3009 2013-04-14 19:38:06 <roconnor> Luke-Jr: perhaps more in theory than in practice.
3010 2013-04-14 19:38:29 <HM2> it's the distribution that matters, and overall strength
3011 2013-04-14 19:38:33 * roconnor likes theorics more than practics
3012 2013-04-14 19:38:43 <sipa> roconnor: scrypt, or in general hash functions designed to be more efficient on general-purpose hardware, sound nice, but i haven't seen any advantage in practice
3013 2013-04-14 19:39:01 <Luke-Jr> sipa: nobody's really used scrypt in practice AFAIK
3014 2013-04-14 19:39:03 <sipa> litecoin and others chose a version of scrypt that isn't particularly hard on GPUs
3015 2013-04-14 19:39:19 <sipa> and even if they did, i wonder if it wouldn't just massively encourage botnets
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3017 2013-04-14 19:39:47 <Luke-Jr> Litecoin's scrypt variant kinda neuters the point of scrypt
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3019 2013-04-14 19:40:20 <roconnor> HM2: I guess the debate is around whether specialized miners should be encouraged, which concentraints mining power in fewer people, or general purpose hardware should be encouraged so that everyone can be a miner leading to wide spread use in botnets.
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3021 2013-04-14 19:40:34 <HM2> i think that's a strawman
3022 2013-04-14 19:40:34 <sipa> yes, it's a good question
3023 2013-04-14 19:40:43 <sipa> i don't know the answer
3024 2013-04-14 19:40:47 <HM2> a well funded group can still build a massive gpu farm
3025 2013-04-14 19:40:48 <roconnor> Luke-Jr: you mean litecoins scrypt parameter are poorly chosen?
3026 2013-04-14 19:40:52 <Luke-Jr> I think SHA256d has proven to be viable
3027 2013-04-14 19:40:53 <sipa> roconnor: indeed
3028 2013-04-14 19:40:54 <Luke-Jr> roconnor: yes
3029 2013-04-14 19:40:57 <HM2> it's relative hash power that matters
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3032 2013-04-14 19:41:09 <roconnor> HM2: I'm not sure how much memmory GPUs can access quickly
3033 2013-04-14 19:41:11 <HM2> someone with 5000x times your wealth can afford 5000x the hash power, regardless of technology
3034 2013-04-14 19:41:18 <HM2> assuming the technology scales
3035 2013-04-14 19:41:34 <Luke-Jr> maybe originally SHA256d wasn't the best choice, but when we have consumer ASICs being produced, it's pretty much reached the same point as scrypt but without the botnet risk
3036 2013-04-14 19:42:05 <Luke-Jr> roconnor: as much as they have onboard I'd expect
3037 2013-04-14 19:42:16 <HM2> scrypt does scale with bitcoin though, because nonce space can be split up between boxes
3038 2013-04-14 19:42:18 <roconnor> Luke-Jr: as in you think ASICs for (large memory) scrypt functions would be produced anyways and the specialized hardware would reign anyways?
3039 2013-04-14 19:42:54 <sipa> roconnor: for scrypt (with hard parameters), i'm sure that at some point ASICs would become viable as well, yes
3040 2013-04-14 19:42:57 <Luke-Jr> roconnor: specialized hardware will exist no matter what; the important thing is that it's available for ordinary people
3041 2013-04-14 19:42:58 stalled has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3042 2013-04-14 19:43:04 <jouke> Luke-Jr: why wasn't sha256 not the best choice initially?
3043 2013-04-14 19:43:04 <roconnor> hmm
3044 2013-04-14 19:43:05 <sipa> though that point may be far further away
3045 2013-04-14 19:43:35 <jouke> man I need to sleep :x Double negative.
3046 2013-04-14 19:43:40 <Luke-Jr> jouke: didn't have ASICs
3047 2013-04-14 19:43:48 yeahoffline has joined
3048 2013-04-14 19:44:00 <sipa> i suppose a scrypt ASIC would be a cheap CPU with a huge amount of RAM
3049 2013-04-14 19:44:00 <roconnor> jouke: hashing functions like sha256 are designed for speed.  In theory, key-stretching algorithms, like scrypt are better for Proof of Work since they are all about being expensive to compute.
3050 2013-04-14 19:44:18 <diki> sipa:https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction#general_format_of_a_Bitcoin_transaction_.28inside_a_block.29 what would in-counter be?
3051 2013-04-14 19:44:22 <Luke-Jr> roconnor: speed is important for POW too
3052 2013-04-14 19:44:28 <roconnor> Luke-Jr: why?
3053 2013-04-14 19:44:36 <Luke-Jr> roconnor: because it should be fast to verify
3054 2013-04-14 19:44:42 <roconnor> ah
3055 2013-04-14 19:44:44 <HM2> roconnor, if there are 1000 people in a network investing $100 in hashing hardware, then someone who comes along with $100,000 can 50% the network. even with scrypt
3056 2013-04-14 19:44:49 <DunnoNL> jouke: I ordered Bitcoins at Bitonic last night. Awesome system.
3057 2013-04-14 19:44:50 <sipa> diki: number of inputs
3058 2013-04-14 19:44:51 <roconnor> Luke-Jr: thanks, I hadn't though of that
3059 2013-04-14 19:45:03 <diki> sipa:how can it be 9 bytes?
3060 2013-04-14 19:45:09 godzilla123 has left ()
3061 2013-04-14 19:45:12 <sipa> diki: varint encoding
3062 2013-04-14 19:45:20 <Diapolo> wumpus: have you spoken to CodeShark recently? any comments from him or what he has planned?
3063 2013-04-14 19:45:31 <sipa> diki: in practice it won't ever be more than 3 bytes
3064 2013-04-14 19:45:45 <diki> but that is still an odd number
3065 2013-04-14 19:45:47 drizztbsd has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
3066 2013-04-14 19:46:01 <Luke-Jr> roconnor: have you seen ASICMiner's product design?
3067 2013-04-14 19:46:04 <wumpus> Diapolo: nope
3068 2013-04-14 19:46:07 <roconnor> nope
3069 2013-04-14 19:46:10 <Diapolo> diki: is your Windows build working now :)?
3070 2013-04-14 19:46:24 <sipa> diki: read how the varint encoding works: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Variable_length_integer
3071 2013-04-14 19:46:24 <diki> Diapolo:Oh yes
3072 2013-04-14 19:46:28 <diki> working just fine
3073 2013-04-14 19:46:31 <Luke-Jr> roconnor: http://s14.postimg.org/7m2hyio8t/be_usb1.jpg?noCache=1365780610
3074 2013-04-14 19:46:37 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: the USB ASIC miner one? very cool
3075 2013-04-14 19:46:55 <diki> Diapolo:My problem with bdb was that I changed db.h after most of the objects were created with the old one
3076 2013-04-14 19:46:56 <Diapolo> wumpus: Did you look into adding signals for that actions used by WalletXYZ files from bitcoingui?
3077 2013-04-14 19:47:19 <roconnor> Luke-Jr: that is a small form factor
3078 2013-04-14 19:47:22 <Diapolo> diki: nice you have found the problem and great to know there is another Windows builder ^^
3079 2013-04-14 19:47:27 <lianj> Luke-Jr: why the heatsink though? doesn't usb only give 500mha?
3080 2013-04-14 19:47:28 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3081 2013-04-14 19:47:31 <wumpus> Diapolo: it's not really a priority at this point, I'll look at it when 0.8.2 is out
3082 2013-04-14 19:47:36 <Luke-Jr> lianj: no idea
3083 2013-04-14 19:47:44 <roconnor> Luke-Jr: Do you know what wattage it is?
3084 2013-04-14 19:47:50 <Luke-Jr> roconnor: no
3085 2013-04-14 19:47:55 <Diapolo> wumpus: any big things you are on currently or are you mainly fixing stuff :)?
3086 2013-04-14 19:48:06 stalled has joined
3087 2013-04-14 19:48:07 <wumpus> Diapolo: might be better to do the cleaning up after multiwallet is in and working
3088 2013-04-14 19:48:11 <HM2> roconnor: people have estimated 2.5 watts
3089 2013-04-14 19:48:13 OneMiner has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3090 2013-04-14 19:48:14 amantonop has left ()
3091 2013-04-14 19:48:23 <sipa> well USB can't do more than 2.5W, can it?
3092 2013-04-14 19:48:24 <wumpus> Diapolo: mainly bug fixes and reviewing pull requests
3093 2013-04-14 19:48:25 <sipa> standard USB
3094 2013-04-14 19:48:29 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3095 2013-04-14 19:48:30 <lianj> sipa: right
3096 2013-04-14 19:48:34 Diapolis_ has joined
3097 2013-04-14 19:48:51 <HM2> there looks to be another connector on the end of it
3098 2013-04-14 19:49:01 <gonffen> looks like a JTAG connector
3099 2013-04-14 19:49:04 i2pRelay has joined
3100 2013-04-14 19:49:11 <HM2> ah k
3101 2013-04-14 19:49:21 <roconnor> JTAG is for flashing?
3102 2013-04-14 19:49:42 <gonffen> or some other programming interface, probably to flash an FTDI or something for interfacing with USB
3103 2013-04-14 19:49:44 <Diapolo> wumpus: but this needs CodeShark, no ;)?
3104 2013-04-14 19:49:48 <gonffen> just shooting in the dark though ;)
3105 2013-04-14 19:49:51 <roconnor> understood
3106 2013-04-14 19:52:06 <roconnor> copumpkin: hi
3107 2013-04-14 19:52:17 <wumpus> roconnor: flashing, testing, debugging, etc
3108 2013-04-14 19:52:26 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3109 2013-04-14 19:52:29 Diapolis has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3110 2013-04-14 19:52:35 Belxjander has joined
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3113 2013-04-14 19:53:32 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3114 2013-04-14 19:53:37 bitcoinbulletin has joined
3115 2013-04-14 19:53:47 nym is now known as giftcoin
3116 2013-04-14 19:56:32 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3117 2013-04-14 19:56:44 <[joe_k]> sipa: fixed it!  was saying (if (yIsOdd and result.IsEven)) thus missing the case when (not yIsOdd) and (not result.IsEven)
3118 2013-04-14 19:56:57 <[joe_k]> changed from and to ==
3119 2013-04-14 19:57:05 i2pRelay has joined
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3121 2013-04-14 19:58:04 paulo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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3123 2013-04-14 19:59:16 giftcoin is now known as nym
3124 2013-04-14 19:59:43 Garr2551 is now known as Garr255
3125 2013-04-14 19:59:58 Garr255 has quit (Changing host)
3126 2013-04-14 19:59:58 Garr255 has joined
3127 2013-04-14 20:00:22 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
3128 2013-04-14 20:00:58 Hunger- has joined
3129 2013-04-14 20:01:28 <amiller> roconnor, i'm working as fast as i can on my outstanding-coins hash tree project :o
3130 2013-04-14 20:01:31 <amiller> afaict no one else is
3131 2013-04-14 20:01:56 <roconnor> amiller: I knew you were still at it :D
3132 2013-04-14 20:01:57 o2 has joined
3133 2013-04-14 20:02:30 <amiller> scraps and pieces are here https://github.com/amiller/generic-ads/blob/master/RedBlack.hs but it's taking a while.
3134 2013-04-14 20:03:07 <HM2> amiller: outstanding-coins?
3135 2013-04-14 20:03:14 <amiller> utxos
3136 2013-04-14 20:03:16 <amiller> unspent coins
3137 2013-04-14 20:03:18 andyh2 has joined
3138 2013-04-14 20:03:26 Diapolo has left ()
3139 2013-04-14 20:03:31 <HM2> oh right
3140 2013-04-14 20:03:56 <HM2> you want to put them in to a hash tree so you can offer proofs and don't need to maintain the full set?
3141 2013-04-14 20:04:11 <amiller> yes
3142 2013-04-14 20:04:27 <HM2> where will you get the root hash from?
3143 2013-04-14 20:04:27 ielo has joined
3144 2013-04-14 20:04:28 <amiller> so you can do full validation even if you don't have a lot of reliable storage
3145 2013-04-14 20:04:32 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3146 2013-04-14 20:05:01 <HM2> you'll have to stick it in each block, presumably?
3147 2013-04-14 20:05:06 i2pRelay has joined
3148 2013-04-14 20:05:14 <amiller> yeah it would be in each block, in the coinbaes for example
3149 2013-04-14 20:06:17 <HM2> hmm nifty
3150 2013-04-14 20:06:26 <sipa> amiller: if you just want O(1) secure storage, you don't need it committed in the coinbase
3151 2013-04-14 20:06:36 <sipa> amiller: only a protocol extension to fetch UTXO data
3152 2013-04-14 20:06:50 <sipa> ... at arbitrary height
3153 2013-04-14 20:07:02 <roconnor> sipa: how would that be trustworthy?
3154 2013-04-14 20:07:13 <sipa> it doesn't need to be, you validate it yourself
3155 2013-04-14 20:07:25 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3156 2013-04-14 20:07:33 Belxjander has joined
3157 2013-04-14 20:07:47 <sipa> your O(1) storage is the UTXO tree root hash, which you've validated, and the corresponding block hash
3158 2013-04-14 20:07:56 jtimon has joined
3159 2013-04-14 20:08:29 windo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3160 2013-04-14 20:08:41 <roconnor> how do you validate UTXO data?
3161 2013-04-14 20:08:58 <sipa> by doing full block processing, like now
3162 2013-04-14 20:09:26 windo has joined
3163 2013-04-14 20:09:30 o2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3164 2013-04-14 20:09:41 o2 has joined
3165 2013-04-14 20:09:50 <HM2> amiller: so you're going to put the utxo set in to a red black tree?
3166 2013-04-14 20:10:04 stainrat has left ()
3167 2013-04-14 20:10:05 <sipa> roconnor: i'm talking about amiller's idea where you can request any data from peers, but only have a very small amount of storage you trust yourself
3168 2013-04-14 20:10:37 <amiller> HM2, yeah, or a trie
3169 2013-04-14 20:10:40 <roconnor> so you'd have to store the block chain, but none of the transaction data?
3170 2013-04-14 20:11:13 <sipa> roconnor: you understand what O(1) storage means? :P
3171 2013-04-14 20:11:25 <sipa> amiller: am i wrong?
3172 2013-04-14 20:11:56 <sipa> i think i'm missing why you need UTXO commitments for your use case
3173 2013-04-14 20:12:02 <amiller> i think you're right sipa, but you've thrown me for a loop since now i can't think of why i ever thought it mattered that the root should be committed
3174 2013-04-14 20:12:04 <HM2> amiller: doesn't a red black tree produce a different structure depending on insert order?
3175 2013-04-14 20:12:07 o2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3176 2013-04-14 20:12:15 <roconnor> wait what?
3177 2013-04-14 20:12:17 o2 has joined
3178 2013-04-14 20:12:37 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3179 2013-04-14 20:12:42 <roconnor> sipa: you said that to do UTXO validation you'd have to do full block processing.
3180 2013-04-14 20:12:46 <sipa> roconnor: yes
3181 2013-04-14 20:12:56 <amiller> HM2, yes it does, and that's a reason to prefer a trie, but insertion order is already fixed because txes are sequential in a block so it might be ok either way
3182 2013-04-14 20:12:58 <roconnor> i.e. traverse through the entire block chain
3183 2013-04-14 20:13:05 <roconnor> (more or less)
3184 2013-04-14 20:13:10 i2pRelay has joined
3185 2013-04-14 20:13:13 <sipa> roconnor: so you download all blocks, validate them, just like you do now, but only store the merkle root of the UTXO set tree
3186 2013-04-14 20:13:43 <sipa> it's sort of a theoretical use case, imho
3187 2013-04-14 20:13:46 <roconnor> oh my god
3188 2013-04-14 20:14:00 <sipa> UTXO commitments have much more practical advantages
3189 2013-04-14 20:14:04 * roconnor 's mind is blown
3190 2013-04-14 20:14:18 <HM2> amiller: what about the maximum utxo size? will we ever realistic hit a scenario where the full utxo set can't be kept in memory. hashing a red black tree piecemeal would require fixed tree sizes (number of nodes)
3191 2013-04-14 20:14:24 <roconnor> a thin client that runs on 64 bits of storage!!
3192 2013-04-14 20:14:36 <sipa> roconnor: 64 is not really secure :)
3193 2013-04-14 20:14:38 <amiller> yesss!
3194 2013-04-14 20:14:44 <roconnor> er right
3195 2013-04-14 20:14:53 <roconnor> 256 bits of storage.
3196 2013-04-14 20:14:57 <sipa> roconnor: and it also means you need to be able to query your peers for the UTXO set at arbitrary depth
3197 2013-04-14 20:15:19 skinnkavaj has quit (Changing host)
3198 2013-04-14 20:15:19 skinnkavaj has joined
3199 2013-04-14 20:15:23 <sipa> so you've turned yourself into O(1) but burdened your peers with an extra order magnitude more complexity
3200 2013-04-14 20:15:41 gaugaugaugau has joined
3201 2013-04-14 20:15:44 <HM2> and if none of your peers keep the set either you're boned
3202 2013-04-14 20:16:00 <amiller> that's why the proof of work puzzle should be different
3203 2013-04-14 20:16:03 <sipa> then again, it doesn't mean you can't store it yourself
3204 2013-04-14 20:16:07 daybyter has joined
3205 2013-04-14 20:16:14 <sipa> it just means you don't need to trust your own storage
3206 2013-04-14 20:16:37 <amiller> scrypt vs sha256 is less interesting, the real value is to create a proof of work puzzle where 'mining' means being a peer that has all this data that's needed to help everyone else validate
3207 2013-04-14 20:17:09 <roconnor> iii
3208 2013-04-14 20:17:23 <roconnor> oops
3209 2013-04-14 20:17:30 <roconnor> keybord issues
3210 2013-04-14 20:17:40 <Luke-Jr> amiller: problem with that is, light nodes can't verify the POW
3211 2013-04-14 20:17:45 <amiller> sure they can
3212 2013-04-14 20:17:46 <sipa> amiller: the interesting part is being able to create a PoW that proves fast UTXO access, but can be verified by people who do not have an UTXO
3213 2013-04-14 20:17:47 saracen has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3214 2013-04-14 20:17:49 <gmaxwell> roconnor: welcome back.
3215 2013-04-14 20:17:55 <roconnor> hi gmaxwell.
3216 2013-04-14 20:18:12 <Luke-Jr> I don't see how
3217 2013-04-14 20:18:19 <roconnor> gmaxwell: It's good to be back. I've missed the drama. :P
3218 2013-04-14 20:18:44 taha has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3219 2013-04-14 20:19:03 <sipa> haha
3220 2013-04-14 20:19:25 <Luke-Jr> roconnor: will you be at the conference btw?
3221 2013-04-14 20:19:38 <roconnor> Luke-Jr: what conference?  Probably not.
3222 2013-04-14 20:19:51 <Luke-Jr> roconnor: in California next motnh
3223 2013-04-14 20:20:03 <sipa> roconnor: you should come!
3224 2013-04-14 20:20:11 <roconnor> Luke-Jr: What dates?  Is it near SF or San Jose?
3225 2013-04-14 20:20:20 <sipa> it's in San Jose
3226 2013-04-14 20:20:31 <sipa> bitcoin2013.com
3227 2013-04-14 20:20:38 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3228 2013-04-14 20:20:47 saracen has joined
3229 2013-04-14 20:20:49 <HM2> PoW against the utxo sounds like it should be cheap, since validation should be happening already
3230 2013-04-14 20:21:02 peter_zfs has left ()
3231 2013-04-14 20:21:07 <DunnoNL> jouke: When I use the move() command. Are funds also transferred between addresses?
3232 2013-04-14 20:21:09 <roconnor> Okay.  I have no plans to be there then, it is unlikely that I will go, but not entirely impossible.
3233 2013-04-14 20:21:09 i2pRelay has joined
3234 2013-04-14 20:21:28 <jouke> DunnoNL: no, absolutely not
3235 2013-04-14 20:21:42 <sipa> DunnoNL: accounts have nothing to do with addresses
3236 2013-04-14 20:21:43 <DunnoNL> So it is only stored on the bitcoind machine.
3237 2013-04-14 20:21:44 <jouke> That is not how bitcoin wallets work.
3238 2013-04-14 20:22:01 <jouke> DunnoNL: exactly
3239 2013-04-14 20:22:01 <sipa> DunnoNL: addresses are just considered entry points into the wallet; once the funds are inside, it's a black box
3240 2013-04-14 20:22:02 <DunnoNL> I find this really confusing
3241 2013-04-14 20:22:07 <sipa> you're not alone
3242 2013-04-14 20:22:26 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3243 2013-04-14 20:22:28 <DunnoNL> Is it safe to use different accounts for all payments?
3244 2013-04-14 20:22:30 <jouke> We received questions like that on a daily basis DunnoNL :)
3245 2013-04-14 20:22:33 Belxjander has joined
3246 2013-04-14 20:22:59 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
3247 2013-04-14 20:23:02 <DunnoNL> Make accounts named 'payment_xxxxxxxxxxx' for every payment. Transfer funds to the man account and make payments from this main account?
3248 2013-04-14 20:23:47 <sipa> if you do that, you don't need the accounts system at all
3249 2013-04-14 20:23:48 Apexseals has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3250 2013-04-14 20:23:55 <sipa> just use getreceivedbyaddress
3251 2013-04-14 20:24:06 <sipa> to see if payments have been filled
3252 2013-04-14 20:24:10 <sipa> or listtransactions
3253 2013-04-14 20:24:13 <jouke> what sipa says. That is how we use it.
3254 2013-04-14 20:24:29 <DunnoNL> But what if someone used that address before?
3255 2013-04-14 20:24:40 <DunnoNL> I know the changes are incredibly small, but it might happen.
3256 2013-04-14 20:24:54 <sipa> how can they? you create a new address for each payment
3257 2013-04-14 20:25:09 Apexseals has joined
3258 2013-04-14 20:25:25 <DunnoNL> Yes, but it's randomly generated. There is a 0,0000...028% chance the adress was generated before.
3259 2013-04-14 20:25:35 <gmaxwell> People are accusing me of locking TD's thread on the forum. I did not. I assume TD locked it.  Any suggestions on if I should unlock it or if I should just leave a note indicating that I didn't lock it?
3260 2013-04-14 20:25:50 TD has joined
3261 2013-04-14 20:25:50 <grazs> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem ?
3262 2013-04-14 20:25:53 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: its the forums...who cares?
3263 2013-04-14 20:25:55 <sipa> grazs: not even
3264 2013-04-14 20:26:07 <sipa> DunnoNL: the chance is 0 for all intents and purposes
3265 2013-04-14 20:26:15 <kadoban> DunnoNL: the number of zeros you're eliding there is ridiculous
3266 2013-04-14 20:26:18 <Luke-Jr> I'm with BlueMatt :p
3267 2013-04-14 20:26:30 andyh2 has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
3268 2013-04-14 20:26:37 <sipa> DunnoNL: if there ever is a case where it becomes remotely viable that an address is reused, it means bitcoin's security is broken
3269 2013-04-14 20:26:40 <DunnoNL> I find it incredible that people accept that a really small chance equals zero.
3270 2013-04-14 20:26:40 shurnormal has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
3271 2013-04-14 20:26:47 <sipa> DunnoNL: it's not zero
3272 2013-04-14 20:26:56 <sipa> it's just too small to worry about
3273 2013-04-14 20:27:17 <EasyAt> I thought it was "All intensive purposes" my whole. mind blown
3274 2013-04-14 20:27:19 <Luke-Jr> DunnoNL: it's smaller than the chance that the Sun explodes and kills us all in the next 5 minutes
3275 2013-04-14 20:27:19 shurnormal has joined
3276 2013-04-14 20:27:20 <BlueMatt> DunnoNL: there is a bigger chance that everyone who has ever used bitcoin gets hit by a bus in the next 30 seconds
3277 2013-04-14 20:27:37 <wallet42> for imagination: if you take all possible values for 256 bit and multiply it by 1000 you get the number of atoms in the universe
3278 2013-04-14 20:27:42 <HM2> oo oo *thinks of an unlikely disaster*
3279 2013-04-14 20:27:44 <DunnoNL> Haha
3280 2013-04-14 20:28:21 <DunnoNL> It's still not zero. I will first check if an address ever received funds and if so (even though that will probably never happen) generate another one.
3281 2013-04-14 20:28:36 <sipa> DunnoNL: you can't check that
3282 2013-04-14 20:28:40 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3283 2013-04-14 20:28:41 <jouke> DunnoNL: you are being irrational
3284 2013-04-14 20:28:45 <sipa> DunnoNL: read this first: http://what-if.xkcd.com/19/
3285 2013-04-14 20:28:48 <wallet42> s/universe/(entire visible) universe/
3286 2013-04-14 20:28:54 <sipa> DunnoNL: tell me when you're done
3287 2013-04-14 20:29:07 <kadoban> DunnoNL: that's not even really a protection. someone could generate the same address after you do, if you're that paranoid
3288 2013-04-14 20:29:12 i2pRelay has joined
3289 2013-04-14 20:29:17 <DunnoNL> So, I'll do it like this: For every payment I create another address in the main account. If receivedybaddress exceeds the required amount, the user gets access. Coins stay at the address it was sent to.
3290 2013-04-14 20:29:20 johnsoft1 has joined
3291 2013-04-14 20:29:26 <wallet42> humans are just really really bad with huge numbers
3292 2013-04-14 20:30:08 johnsoft has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3293 2013-04-14 20:30:11 <DunnoNL> Reading now.
3294 2013-04-14 20:30:41 <jouke> DunnoNL: it doesn't really matter what address it "stays" bitcoind will take it anyway when sending it from any account.
3295 2013-04-14 20:31:45 hsmithsN7_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3296 2013-04-14 20:32:25 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3297 2013-04-14 20:32:30 <midnightmagic> DunnoNL: It's within reasonable orders of magnitude of large numbers of the electrons in your chair visit a spot 1 meter to the right and then stay there.
3298 2013-04-14 20:32:31 meefozio has quit ()
3299 2013-04-14 20:33:03 <HM2> technically, you don't need 256 bit though, right? for standard script you only need a 160 bit hash collision
3300 2013-04-14 20:33:32 <HM2> hmm, plus a few bits of the double sha256 :|
3301 2013-04-14 20:34:02 <jchp> the standard script requires your ECDSA sig to be valid too
3302 2013-04-14 20:34:04 <wallet42> hm2, omg we're doomed :D
3303 2013-04-14 20:34:07 <DunnoNL> Okay, I accept the incredible small probability of collision and equal it to zero.
3304 2013-04-14 20:34:17 <HM2> jchp: oh yeah
3305 2013-04-14 20:34:34 <DunnoNL> How does bitcoind determine from which address to send bitcoins?
3306 2013-04-14 20:34:47 <sipa> DunnoNL: transactions do not send 'from' an address
3307 2013-04-14 20:34:50 <sipa> DunnoNL: they send coins
3308 2013-04-14 20:34:52 <wallet42> bitcoind tries to use old coins first
3309 2013-04-14 20:34:57 <HM2> jchp: only for stealing funds, not for spending funds sent to you
3310 2013-04-14 20:35:03 <sipa> (those coins are assigned to addresses, but that's not relevant here)
3311 2013-04-14 20:35:15 <DunnoNL> sipa: Okay, I undestand that.
3312 2013-04-14 20:35:31 <sipa> so it doesn't choose which addresses to send from, it chooses coins
3313 2013-04-14 20:35:35 <DunnoNL> sipa: I don't understand the second part. Why is it not relevant?
3314 2013-04-14 20:35:42 <muhoo> stealing funds?
3315 2013-04-14 20:35:51 <melvster1> according to http://bitcoin.speedstats.org/  if i send 1 btc with Zero fee, it will take about 4 blocks to get a confirm, does that sound reasonable?
3316 2013-04-14 20:36:03 <Luke-Jr> DunnoNL: because it's not useful information for anything
3317 2013-04-14 20:36:18 <sipa> Luke-Jr: actually it would be, privacy-wise, but we don't use it
3318 2013-04-14 20:36:20 <Luke-Jr> DunnoNL: your transaction could be using coins assigned to addresses that aren't even yours, for example
3319 2013-04-14 20:36:21 <jchp> melvster1: it depends on your priority
3320 2013-04-14 20:36:31 <sipa> DunnoNL: the algorithm just tries to find a small set of coins to pay; just like you'd do when payint with a physical wallet of coins
3321 2013-04-14 20:36:42 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3322 2013-04-14 20:36:45 <jchp> melvster1: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees#Technical_info
3323 2013-04-14 20:36:51 <melvster1> thx
3324 2013-04-14 20:36:56 <DunnoNL> Okay, I accept the irrelevance of which coins are sent too.
3325 2013-04-14 20:37:03 ramir has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3326 2013-04-14 20:37:13 i2pRelay has joined
3327 2013-04-14 20:37:13 <DunnoNL> That means i also have to accept that I will have thousands of addresses if I have many many orders.
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3331 2013-04-14 20:37:54 <wallet42> thats why you have a wallet.dat bitcoind does all this for you
3332 2013-04-14 20:38:05 <HM2> muhoo: yeah, a preimage attack against ripemd160 would be enough to steal funds sent to someone with a standard script. i think?
3333 2013-04-14 20:38:06 <wallet42> you just use the send command
3334 2013-04-14 20:38:11 <sipa> HM2: indeed
3335 2013-04-14 20:38:30 <DunnoNL> wallet42: Okay, I was too much focussed on the address part and too little on the account part.
3336 2013-04-14 20:38:53 <wallet42> just dont forget to backup your wallet
3337 2013-04-14 20:39:46 <DunnoNL> Yeah, now I understand the importance of backups. If you just had one address to send and receive, all you needed was once private key. If you have a gazillion addresses it's not doable by hand, you need the backups.
3338 2013-04-14 20:40:03 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3339 2013-04-14 20:41:14 <saracen> Is it safe for a service to use the accounting features of bitcoind? Such that each member has an account, and if they send bitcoins to each other, you issue a move command, rather than a transaction to another address?
3340 2013-04-14 20:41:41 <HM2> afaik there hasn't been a successful preimage against any serious cryptographic hash function
3341 2013-04-14 20:41:48 <sipa> saracen: should be safe
3342 2013-04-14 20:41:55 <Anduck> someone give me your testnet addr
3343 2013-04-14 20:42:02 <HM2> wikipedia says even MD5 is still 2^123 as of 2009
3344 2013-04-14 20:42:06 <Anduck> i'll send little coins to test a little thing
3345 2013-04-14 20:42:36 <Anduck> meh i'll just find some random addr
3346 2013-04-14 20:42:53 <saracen> sipa: I imagine it would not be safe if you also allowed them to import their own private key though, right (ignoring the slowness of doing so), in that they could create a move on your service, but make an actual transaction with their own private key?
3347 2013-04-14 20:43:25 <wallet42> n4cWTVa5AfEpXtbNF9CjLteoRyaaFtmLMC
3348 2013-04-14 20:43:30 <Anduck> ty
3349 2013-04-14 20:43:31 <sipa> saracen: indeed, in a shared wallet environment like you're describing, the addresses are yours, not theirs
3350 2013-04-14 20:44:46 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3351 2013-04-14 20:45:16 <jouke> Hmmm, after al these transactions that we made, our wallet only contains ~850 addresses
3352 2013-04-14 20:45:21 i2pRelay has joined
3353 2013-04-14 20:45:30 <wallet42> anduck thanx for 3 coins
3354 2013-04-14 20:45:39 normanrichards has joined
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3357 2013-04-14 20:46:22 <DunnoNL> Why would you need the accounts anyway then?
3358 2013-04-14 20:46:52 <DunnoNL> jouke: You are selling Bitcoins and only receiving a limited amount.
3359 2013-04-14 20:47:19 <jouke> I don't think you know the numbers that we receive :)
3360 2013-04-14 20:47:24 <jouke> Quite a lot actually.
3361 2013-04-14 20:47:38 <jouke> But I would have thought it would have created more change-addresses
3362 2013-04-14 20:48:06 <jouke> Hnmm, wait, do they show up with listreceivedbyaddress?
3363 2013-04-14 20:48:24 <DunnoNL> jouke: True, I take that back.
3364 2013-04-14 20:48:25 <Anduck> wallet42 :) thanks for letting me test it
3365 2013-04-14 20:48:29 <sipa> jouke: no
3366 2013-04-14 20:48:50 <jouke> sipa: ok, that explains
3367 2013-04-14 20:49:02 <DunnoNL> I got my basic framework working now. How many confirmations should I wait for before actually accepting the payment?
3368 2013-04-14 20:49:04 <jouke> ok, now you know how many transactions we received :x
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3370 2013-04-14 20:49:23 <midnightmagic> DunnoNL: MtGox waits 6 (or did a few weeks ago when I sent some coins in)
3371 2013-04-14 20:50:22 <DunnoNL> jouke: As a Dutchman interested in Bitcoins I followed Bitonic a bit, and I noticed a lot of people were angry about the fixed exchange rate. I think you did good and I hope you made a nice profit. You're also taking a lot of risk and you're offering a service which both justify the price. Rock on! :)
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3375 2013-04-14 20:50:56 <DunnoNL> midnightmagic: But that would mean, taking into account a block is generated every ten minutes in average, a customer would have to wait about an hour before they get the product?
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3381 2013-04-14 20:52:49 <midnightmagic> DunnoNL: MtGox deals with large volumes of money. Actually, Satoshi's paper describes how to calculate the odds of being double-spent IIRC, so you can use that equation to calculate how sure you want to be for a particular transaction.
3382 2013-04-14 20:53:05 jiffe1 has joined
3383 2013-04-14 20:53:13 <Scrat> DunnoNL: waiting for 6 confirmations across the board isn't that smart. you can do a tiered system where for example <1 btc 1 conf, <5 btc 2 conf, etc.
3384 2013-04-14 20:53:23 i2pRelay has joined
3385 2013-04-14 20:53:38 <DunnoNL> midnightmagic: I'm looking it up right now
3386 2013-04-14 20:53:40 <DunnoNL> Scrat: Genius!
3387 2013-04-14 20:53:50 tttttt has joined
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3389 2013-04-14 20:53:58 <DunnoNL> You determine the acceptable risk based on the amount of money.
3390 2013-04-14 20:54:05 <Scrat> You can use this to calculate your risk https://people.xiph.org/~greg/attack_success.html
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3392 2013-04-14 20:54:48 <DunnoNL> Scrat: Hash-power refers to what?
3393 2013-04-14 20:55:12 <Scrat> 0.4 is 40% of the entire network hashrate
3394 2013-04-14 20:55:18 michagogo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3395 2013-04-14 20:55:36 <DunnoNL> So this related to for example that one guild that almost has 50% of all new blocks?
3396 2013-04-14 20:55:42 <diki> love the new PSY song
3397 2013-04-14 20:55:51 latrina has joined
3398 2013-04-14 20:56:01 <midnightmagic> DunnoNL: Decide the odds you're comfortable with, and go that number of confirmations. Just don't go with 0 or 1.
3399 2013-04-14 20:56:10 <Scrat> that's BTCGuild, and they're at 38% I believe
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3401 2013-04-14 20:57:01 <DunnoNL> 0.4 hashpower and 6 confirmations means 0.50398 chance of succesful attack.
3402 2013-04-14 20:57:25 <DunnoNL> So even waiting for 6 confirmations means they have a 50% chance of success?
3403 2013-04-14 20:58:01 <HM2> i think it's 0.5%
3404 2013-04-14 20:58:07 <TD> diki: new psy song?? :)
3405 2013-04-14 20:58:09 <Scrat> if someone can amass all that power, yes
3406 2013-04-14 20:58:21 <Scrat> HM2: 50%
3407 2013-04-14 20:58:27 <jouke> Ah, ~7000 addresses in our wallet. And we use accounts and the move command a lot. Quite impressive how fast bitcoind performance :)
3408 2013-04-14 20:58:36 <sipa> TD: there's this one site, called youtube; i think some people watch every single video on it
3409 2013-04-14 20:58:37 <DunnoNL> HM2: No, it's a probability so it's in 0-1
3410 2013-04-14 20:58:42 <diki> TD:Yeah, not as good as Gangnam Style, but I still like it. It's called Gentkleman
3411 2013-04-14 20:58:45 <TD> haha
3412 2013-04-14 20:58:47 jaequery has joined
3413 2013-04-14 20:58:55 mapppum has joined
3414 2013-04-14 20:58:56 <diki> *Gentkleman
3415 2013-04-14 20:58:58 <diki> fuck
3416 2013-04-14 20:59:03 <diki> *Gentleman
3417 2013-04-14 20:59:05 Diapolis_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3418 2013-04-14 20:59:07 <DunnoNL> jouke: Aaaah, I was expecting something like that.
3419 2013-04-14 20:59:18 <TD> diki: the keys are right next to each other ;)
3420 2013-04-14 20:59:44 <diki> I usually don't look at the keyboard when typing.
3421 2013-04-14 20:59:50 <jouke> altough for webshops we use other software to manage bitcoin addresses.
3422 2013-04-14 21:00:15 <jouke> But that is an other story
3423 2013-04-14 21:00:18 <DunnoNL> jouke: Do you build webshops?
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3425 2013-04-14 21:00:33 <ubias> diki, fuck it might as well be since thats the play on words for the song
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3427 2013-04-14 21:01:17 <jouke> DunnoNL: we let webshops accept bitcoin, although that service hasn't been advertised as well as it could have with all the recent mass media attentions. But we should that discussion somewhere else.
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3453 2013-04-14 21:18:04 Guest99774 is now known as jgarzik
3454 2013-04-14 21:18:25 <jgarzik> A transaction fee tracking website: http://bitcoin.speedstats.org/
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3459 2013-04-14 21:21:37 <ubias> Interesting for the fee or not fee debates :)
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3477 2013-04-14 21:27:32 supercell has joined
3478 2013-04-14 21:27:55 <supercell> Greetings I would like to implement OP_URL
3479 2013-04-14 21:28:29 <supercell> i'm thinking i'll put it in an .if 0=1 branch or something like that
3480 2013-04-14 21:28:31 <HM2> jgarzik: not many people seem to like expressing fees as a % of tx volume, is there a reason for that?
3481 2013-04-14 21:29:00 <HM2> *value, not volume
3482 2013-04-14 21:29:03 <supercell> and then have fail back requirements in the else. Should be good right?
3483 2013-04-14 21:30:21 rdymac has joined
3484 2013-04-14 21:30:37 <TD> what is OP_URL?
3485 2013-04-14 21:30:38 Scipio314 has quit ()
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3487 2013-04-14 21:30:45 <supercell> it would fetch a given url
3488 2013-04-14 21:30:54 n5 has quit (Client Quit)
3489 2013-04-14 21:30:59 <lianj> and do what?
3490 2013-04-14 21:31:12 <TD> is this a serious proposal?
3491 2013-04-14 21:31:13 <lianj> besides that you can't add new opcodes
3492 2013-04-14 21:31:17 <TD> or are you sort of joking around
3493 2013-04-14 21:31:17 <supercell> it would be a means of additional spending requirements
3494 2013-04-14 21:31:30 <supercell> no im going to do it
3495 2013-04-14 21:31:32 <supercell> and im letting you all know
3496 2013-04-14 21:31:33 <TD> scripts have to be pure functions over their inputs, they can't have external state
3497 2013-04-14 21:31:35 <supercell> =)
3498 2013-04-14 21:31:56 <TD> ok, well, you go ahead and do that :)
3499 2013-04-14 21:32:29 <supercell> it will be to allow peers who recognize the opcode to do further validation (fetching url), then sign the transaction
3500 2013-04-14 21:32:35 <supercell> which will enable escrow
3501 2013-04-14 21:32:57 <saracen> That's crazy.
3502 2013-04-14 21:32:58 <supercell> and fall back else branch will require the signatures
3503 2013-04-14 21:33:01 <TD> and once the tx is included in the block chain ?
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3508 2013-04-14 21:34:42 <supercell> well my thought is that the else branch, will require signatures + password, and password will be supplied directly to buyer.... and require N signatures from nodes that understand OP_URL
3509 2013-04-14 21:35:05 <sipa> supercell: you understand you can't just add a new opcode without a hardfork of the network (i.e., every single node has to upgrade)?
3510 2013-04-14 21:35:20 <supercell> this is why id wrap it in if 0=1
3511 2013-04-14 21:35:29 <supercell> unless you guys would prefer something else
3512 2013-04-14 21:35:38 <sipa> supercell: and that the script language is very explicitly designed not to depend on any state outside of the chain?
3513 2013-04-14 21:35:52 <sipa> outside of the transaction, even
3514 2013-04-14 21:35:59 <supercell> yes this is why it would be an extension
3515 2013-04-14 21:36:13 <sipa> i don't see how this can work
3516 2013-04-14 21:36:32 <sipa> what if the url becomes inaccessible?
3517 2013-04-14 21:36:40 <sipa> after the transaction is included in the chain?
3518 2013-04-14 21:37:04 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3519 2013-04-14 21:37:15 <supercell> at that point the pin and signatures would have already been completed
3520 2013-04-14 21:37:26 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3521 2013-04-14 21:37:33 Belxjander has joined
3522 2013-04-14 21:37:36 <sipa> you don't understand: new nodes wouldn't be able to validate the old chain anymore
3523 2013-04-14 21:37:43 <supercell> i also thought about witness-node resiliance, i could require N-1 witness signatures
3524 2013-04-14 21:37:53 <sipa> if its validity depends on the contents of a fetched URL
3525 2013-04-14 21:38:32 <supercell> i could make it an or
3526 2013-04-14 21:38:39 <supercell> or the signatures are there
3527 2013-04-14 21:38:43 <sipa> that's entirely irrelevant
3528 2013-04-14 21:38:54 <supercell> if OP_URL() or check sig
3529 2013-04-14 21:39:08 <sipa> you're making the validity of a script depend on an external state, that can change
3530 2013-04-14 21:39:15 <sipa> that means that the validity of the script can change
3531 2013-04-14 21:39:25 <sipa> this is completely against bitcoin's design
3532 2013-04-14 21:39:26 <supercell> well im using op_reserved because if the url isn't there id like it to be considered invalid
3533 2013-04-14 21:39:35 <supercell> and thats exactly what op_reserved does
3534 2013-04-14 21:39:58 daveluke has quit (Quit: daveluke)
3535 2013-04-14 21:40:09 <sipa> do you agree with me, that using OP_URL (however you implement it), a script could at some point be valid, and at a later point not anymore?
3536 2013-04-14 21:40:20 <supercell> yes
3537 2013-04-14 21:40:30 <sipa> in that case it's completely inaccepable
3538 2013-04-14 21:40:40 <sipa> transactions must be either valid or invalid
3539 2013-04-14 21:40:50 <TD> supercell: you're trying to solve escrow?
3540 2013-04-14 21:40:50 <supercell> but if its paired with the OP_URL, (so the transaction has been signed at some point,w hile the url was valid)
3541 2013-04-14 21:40:56 <supercell> and the url can also be different for each peer
3542 2013-04-14 21:40:57 <supercell> i know its weird
3543 2013-04-14 21:40:57 <phantomcircuit> sipa, /ignore
3544 2013-04-14 21:40:58 <TD> supercell: have you read the contracts page?
3545 2013-04-14 21:41:01 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3546 2013-04-14 21:41:05 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i strongly suggest you use it
3547 2013-04-14 21:41:06 <supercell> but the usefulness outweighs your plight
3548 2013-04-14 21:41:14 owowo has quit (Quit: sayonara)
3549 2013-04-14 21:41:19 <supercell> yes td
3550 2013-04-14 21:41:23 <saracen> But if you're relying on it only working for the first node that ever processes it (while the url is valid)... why make the node process it at all? You could just setup the events that take place, where afterwards, the transaction is broadcast normally.
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3553 2013-04-14 21:41:34 <sipa> supercell: there is certainly usefulness in contracts and escrows, but implement everything at the appropriate layer
3554 2013-04-14 21:41:39 <supercell> i guess I could more or less just store the nodes as a string
3555 2013-04-14 21:41:41 <sipa> supercell: the script language is not the place
3556 2013-04-14 21:41:52 <supercell> but essentially i just wanted to augment bitcoin to include any number of additional web-based apis
3557 2013-04-14 21:42:08 <supercell> and should a website go offline one day, maybe the coins should be considered invalid idk
3558 2013-04-14 21:42:16 <supercell> register the domain if you want to spend them again lol
3559 2013-04-14 21:42:42 <sipa> that is unacceptable: bitcoin's design is that everyone can fully validate the correctness of the system
3560 2013-04-14 21:42:53 <supercell> alright i see your point
3561 2013-04-14 21:43:09 <sipa> if states can change, it's impossible to guarantee that everyone comes to the same conclusion about which chain is valid
3562 2013-04-14 21:43:28 <supercell> but you would love it if urls were always available and static ;\
3563 2013-04-14 21:44:04 <supercell> my idea with the url was that you could handle any additional processing through these urls that would refrence the transaction status, and be publically available
3564 2013-04-14 21:44:08 <saracen> and if fetching information from a url was as quick as the other opcodes...
3565 2013-04-14 21:44:11 <supercell> but it is not fault tollernt
3566 2013-04-14 21:44:23 Free-Way has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3567 2013-04-14 21:44:23 <skinnkavaj> did you guys know satoshi traveled back in time and invented btc? no? thats why also disappered and was not born later when he changed stuff time traveling
3568 2013-04-14 21:44:29 <supercell> yeah and i guess theres reasons not to fetch urls, anonymitiy
3569 2013-04-14 21:44:59 GlitchNZ has joined
3570 2013-04-14 21:45:08 * saracen goes to implement OP_IRC
3571 2013-04-14 21:45:13 <supercell> =x
3572 2013-04-14 21:45:26 <supercell> well op url would have been protocol friendly http https irc btc ;D
3573 2013-04-14 21:45:31 * sipa goes to implement OP_X86ASM
3574 2013-04-14 21:45:36 <supercell> OP_BLOWJOB
3575 2013-04-14 21:45:37 <supercell> I WIN
3576 2013-04-14 21:45:45 <sipa> ok ok
3577 2013-04-14 21:45:47 <HM2> sipa: you might have to learn x86 asm first :P
3578 2013-04-14 21:45:51 <thebadplus> lol
3579 2013-04-14 21:46:10 <HM2> anyway, hipster programmers are all on the LLVM bandwagon these days. you want to implement OP_LLVM
3580 2013-04-14 21:46:25 <sipa> HM2: do you think everyone here who suggests wild ideas actually knows how to implement them?
3581 2013-04-14 21:46:28 <supercell> rofl
3582 2013-04-14 21:46:28 <HM2> or OP_JS
3583 2013-04-14 21:46:28 <sipa> HM2: i'm no different!
3584 2013-04-14 21:46:41 <supercell> hey id be down with OP_JS ;D xhtml request
3585 2013-04-14 21:46:44 <saracen> OP_JS would work!
3586 2013-04-14 21:46:44 <supercell> json and all that
3587 2013-04-14 21:46:55 <supercell> txn to http://127.0.0.1:9332/
3588 2013-04-14 21:46:56 <supercell> ;D
3589 2013-04-14 21:47:02 <lianj> OP_ACCEPT_NONSTANDARD_PLZ
3590 2013-04-14 21:47:09 <sipa> ok, that's the limit
3591 2013-04-14 21:47:18 Alina-malina has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3592 2013-04-14 21:47:28 <sipa> if anyone goes further and suggests an OP_VBSCRIPT, i'm going to start kicking!
3593 2013-04-14 21:47:32 <supercell> lol
3594 2013-04-14 21:47:36 <sipa> wait, i just did
3595 2013-04-14 21:47:37 <saracen> But, I'm sure there's more "jokes" that can be made with capital words prefixed with OP_ :(
3596 2013-04-14 21:47:41 <supercell> we didn't even get to python though
3597 2013-04-14 21:47:42 <kadoban> i was gonna go for OP_COBOL, but ya...
3598 2013-04-14 21:48:02 <supercell> alright well what do you suggest
3599 2013-04-14 21:48:07 <HM2> Brainfuck is actually the simplest to implement and verify
3600 2013-04-14 21:48:12 <supercell> you guys ok with me putting metadata in the block chain in string format
3601 2013-04-14 21:48:16 n215_home has joined
3602 2013-04-14 21:48:18 <supercell> i'll keep it small
3603 2013-04-14 21:48:19 <supercell> =x
3604 2013-04-14 21:48:24 <n215_home> hi
3605 2013-04-14 21:48:27 <lianj> supercell: no
3606 2013-04-14 21:48:29 hsmithsN7_ has joined
3607 2013-04-14 21:48:52 <n215_home> isnt asics use same chip as fpga ?
3608 2013-04-14 21:48:53 <sipa> supercell: no
3609 2013-04-14 21:49:00 <supercell> people will one day modify their bitcoin clients to block OP_MESSAGES prefixed with supercell:
3610 2013-04-14 21:49:02 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3611 2013-04-14 21:49:07 <supercell> im sure of it
3612 2013-04-14 21:49:12 <sipa> supercell: go to http://bitmessage.org
3613 2013-04-14 21:49:23 <sipa> you'll like it
3614 2013-04-14 21:49:25 reizuki__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3615 2013-04-14 21:49:25 <supercell> ok
3616 2013-04-14 21:49:34 i2pRelay has joined
3617 2013-04-14 21:49:44 <supercell> is this related to bitcoin directly in anyway?
3618 2013-04-14 21:49:57 orblivion has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3619 2013-04-14 21:49:57 <Luke-Jr> not really
3620 2013-04-14 21:50:00 <supercell> k
3621 2013-04-14 21:50:16 <sipa> they use somewhat related technology, and it's certainly inspired by bitcoind
3622 2013-04-14 21:50:49 <saracen> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/wallet.cpp#L54 - This line here. If GetPrivKey throws an error, how is it that it can still be written to the wallet?
3623 2013-04-14 21:51:19 <sipa> supercell: for encrypted keys, AddCryptedKey is called
3624 2013-04-14 21:51:44 <supercell> i'm still curious the mechanics for password protected scripts?
3625 2013-04-14 21:51:58 <sipa> there are no password protected scripts
3626 2013-04-14 21:52:01 gaul1 has joined
3627 2013-04-14 21:52:03 <sipa> and there is no point for them
3628 2013-04-14 21:52:04 <saracen> This is not an encrypted wallet, so I'm assuming this wouldnt be an encrypted key
3629 2013-04-14 21:52:07 <supercell> the wiki made mention of them?
3630 2013-04-14 21:52:14 <sipa> supercell: link please?
3631 2013-04-14 21:52:20 <supercell> "It's also possible to require that an input be signed by ten different keys, or be redeemable with a password instead of a key."
3632 2013-04-14 21:52:22 <supercell> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transactions
3633 2013-04-14 21:52:25 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3634 2013-04-14 21:52:30 <sipa> supercell: that doesn't mean encrypted
3635 2013-04-14 21:52:34 Belxjander has joined
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3637 2013-04-14 21:52:39 <sipa> supercell: that means it needs a password
3638 2013-04-14 21:52:48 <supercell> yes
3639 2013-04-14 21:52:51 <supercell> the mechanics of that?
3640 2013-04-14 21:53:11 <supercell> oh, im not saracen
3641 2013-04-14 21:53:12 <sipa> have a script that checks whether hash(input)=somevalue
3642 2013-04-14 21:53:24 <jchp> you probably don't want to do that, if you protect it by a hash, once it's broadcasted someone can rebroadcast with different outputs
3643 2013-04-14 21:53:38 <jchp> script hashes nonwithstanding ofc
3644 2013-04-14 21:53:48 <supercell> but when you announce that on the network whats to stop the peer you announced it to from spending it too?
3645 2013-04-14 21:53:54 <supercell> or something like that
3646 2013-04-14 21:54:02 <sipa> nothing
3647 2013-04-14 21:54:03 <supercell> k
3648 2013-04-14 21:54:09 <supercell> interesting
3649 2013-04-14 21:54:15 <sipa> that's why you should at least combine it with a normal script that checks a signature
3650 2013-04-14 21:54:21 <saracen> sipa: so when is the non-encrypted version used?
3651 2013-04-14 21:54:31 <sipa> saracen: for non-encrypted wallets
3652 2013-04-14 21:54:35 <supercell> which basically validates the to/from and ammounts etc?
3653 2013-04-14 21:54:58 n5 has joined
3654 2013-04-14 21:54:58 <saracen> Ok, well, this is just a default wallet. Freshly made. No password. Presumably, no encryption?
3655 2013-04-14 21:55:09 <sipa> saracen: yes
3656 2013-04-14 21:55:13 <saracen> Ok
3657 2013-04-14 21:55:18 <sipa> bitcoin does not operate in terms of to/from, and scripts do not see or concern amounts
3658 2013-04-14 21:55:19 <saracen> So I'm sure that AddWallet is still being called
3659 2013-04-14 21:55:25 <sipa> why?
3660 2013-04-14 21:55:25 n215_home has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3661 2013-04-14 21:55:31 <saracen> But I can import a "bad" key, that throws an error on GetPrivKey
3662 2013-04-14 21:55:37 <saracen> but it still manages to get written to the wallet
3663 2013-04-14 21:55:52 <sipa> define 'bad key' ?
3664 2013-04-14 21:56:32 OneMiner_ has joined
3665 2013-04-14 21:56:43 <saracen> sipa: 5HpHagT65TZzG1PH3CSu63k8DbpvD8s5ip4nEB3kEsreAbuatmU (private key = 0). There's 2 BTC on it, but I couldn't figure out how to spend it, and I imagine you cannot.
3666 2013-04-14 21:56:53 <saracen> But while an error is reported, it still gets written.
3667 2013-04-14 21:56:56 andyh2 has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
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3669 2013-04-14 21:57:07 <saracen> I was going to fix it, but I'm confused as to why it is still being added to the wallet, I cannot see it on that line.
3670 2013-04-14 21:57:39 i2pRelay has joined
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3680 2013-04-14 22:01:08 <saracen> I mean, maybe it isn't much of an issue. Bit, it does seem to mess up the reporting somehow
3681 2013-04-14 22:01:10 OneMiner_ is now known as OneMiner
3682 2013-04-14 22:01:11 undecim has joined
3683 2013-04-14 22:01:52 <saracen> SOmetimes my balance was showing the 2BTC, sometimes it wasn't. Moving it about internally made things... weird. Other accounts having balances, others having negatives.
3684 2013-04-14 22:02:50 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3685 2013-04-14 22:03:43 <diki> man
3686 2013-04-14 22:04:01 <diki> I am close to finding a way to get the merkle hash of a tx, but not quite there yet
3687 2013-04-14 22:04:06 <diki> still studying code.
3688 2013-04-14 22:04:27 debiantoruser has joined
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3692 2013-04-14 22:05:42 <sipa> diki: merkle hash of a tx??
3693 2013-04-14 22:05:42 nomailin1 has joined
3694 2013-04-14 22:05:54 <sipa> diki: transactions just have a single hash
3695 2013-04-14 22:05:56 <sipa> their txid
3696 2013-04-14 22:06:08 <gruez> sipa: I made a new VM on a different machine
3697 2013-04-14 22:06:09 <diki> I meant the merkle hash of a block
3698 2013-04-14 22:06:13 <gruez> now when I try to do to sanity test
3699 2013-04-14 22:06:28 <gruez> it says "timed out during banner exchange"
3700 2013-04-14 22:06:29 <diki> sipa:Like for genesis block it's 4a5e1e4baab89f3a32518a88c31bc87f618f76673e2cc77ab2127b7afdeda33b
3701 2013-04-14 22:06:49 <supercell> i'll have to dick around on the testnet some
3702 2013-04-14 22:06:52 <diki> I believe I am close, I had to consult the cbitcoin source code, I was expecting a little bit more from it
3703 2013-04-14 22:07:18 <sipa> diki: for a block with a single transaction, the merkle root is just equal to the txid
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3711 2013-04-14 22:08:28 <supercell> why is there such an overly elaborate script
3712 2013-04-14 22:08:58 <sipa> supercell: you wanted to complicate it even further?
3713 2013-04-14 22:09:10 <supercell> true...
3714 2013-04-14 22:09:21 <supercell> lol but now I'm just curious what the intended uses are
3715 2013-04-14 22:09:26 <supercell> i see the couple of examples
3716 2013-04-14 22:09:32 <supercell> but none of them would use half of the ops
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3720 2013-04-14 22:10:24 <sipa> supercell: indeed
3721 2013-04-14 22:10:34 <sipa> supercell: many are legacy
3722 2013-04-14 22:10:35 Eliel has quit (Quit: reboot)
3723 2013-04-14 22:10:36 <supercell> especially some of the stack manipulators
3724 2013-04-14 22:10:43 <sipa> those are actually useful
3725 2013-04-14 22:10:45 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
3726 2013-04-14 22:10:49 <sipa> but the arithmetic ones are mostly disabled
3727 2013-04-14 22:11:15 <supercell> yeah probably for the best =x buffer overflows and what not
3728 2013-04-14 22:11:38 Diapolis has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3729 2013-04-14 22:11:50 <supercell> well whatever its cool anyway
3730 2013-04-14 22:12:06 <TD> honestly, we think satoshi didn't really know what most opcodes were for
3731 2013-04-14 22:12:29 <TD> once he decided he needed a scripting language, he sort of went a bit overboard with it and just threw in anything that seemed "script like"
3732 2013-04-14 22:12:37 <supercell> ha
3733 2013-04-14 22:12:39 <sipa> indeed
3734 2013-04-14 22:12:41 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3735 2013-04-14 22:12:42 <supercell> and fit in a byte?
3736 2013-04-14 22:12:44 OneMiner has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
3737 2013-04-14 22:12:49 <TD> the most useful features are actually the ones that aren't a part of the script language - like sighash flags and sequence numbers/lock times
3738 2013-04-14 22:13:05 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3739 2013-04-14 22:13:27 <supercell> hmm I still have a lot of reading to do sounds like
3740 2013-04-14 22:13:35 i2pRelay has joined
3741 2013-04-14 22:13:36 <supercell> I was under the impression that OP_CHECKSIG and all that was part of script
3742 2013-04-14 22:13:45 <supercell> oh flags
3743 2013-04-14 22:13:46 <supercell> i see
3744 2013-04-14 22:14:19 <diki> sipa:What is the significance of the number 486604799 and CBigNum(4)?
3745 2013-04-14 22:14:28 LainZ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3746 2013-04-14 22:15:07 <supercell> thats 2^28*something
3747 2013-04-14 22:15:07 qeb has quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"])
3748 2013-04-14 22:15:13 <supercell> that may be the scep256k or whatever
3749 2013-04-14 22:15:21 OneMiner has joined
3750 2013-04-14 22:15:54 <supercell> nope way off
3751 2013-04-14 22:15:56 <ali1234> 0x1d00ffff - it's not a power of 2
3752 2013-04-14 22:16:00 * supercell goes back to the corner
3753 2013-04-14 22:16:07 manoliyo has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
3754 2013-04-14 22:16:07 <ali1234> 31*15696929
3755 2013-04-14 22:16:20 Odyessus has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
3756 2013-04-14 22:17:08 <diki> oh ok, so 486604799 is the nbits
3757 2013-04-14 22:17:31 <supercell> i just saw that on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Genesis_block
3758 2013-04-14 22:17:35 <diki> Then what about CBigNum(4), I looked at the overloaded functions, but could not find the right one or what it foes
3759 2013-04-14 22:17:50 ColinT has joined
3760 2013-04-14 22:18:00 <diki> Does it pad the number 4?
3761 2013-04-14 22:19:04 <sipa> diki: context?
3762 2013-04-14 22:19:17 <diki> txNew.vin[0].scriptSig = CScript() << 486604799 << CBigNum(4) << vector<unsigned char>((const unsigned char*)pszTimestamp, (const unsigned char*)pszTimestamp + strlen(pszTimestamp));
3763 2013-04-14 22:19:21 <diki> CBigNum(4)
3764 2013-04-14 22:20:38 <sipa> diki: it's constructing the coinbase of a block
3765 2013-04-14 22:21:02 <diki> I gather that, but what would CBigNum(4) stand for?
3766 2013-04-14 22:21:06 <sipa> diki: the scriptSig of coinbases is almost arbitrary data, but typically they have some structure
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3768 2013-04-14 22:21:18 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
3769 2013-04-14 22:21:19 <sipa> the bignum representing the number 5
3770 2013-04-14 22:21:21 <sipa> eh, 4
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3772 2013-04-14 22:21:52 <diki> When I had done txNew.vin[0].scriptSig.ToString().c_str(), it still printed the number 4
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3776 2013-04-14 22:24:14 <sipa> diki: sure?
3777 2013-04-14 22:24:47 <diki> I was just thinkinh why it printed 4. And as such why use CBigNum(4) either.
3778 2013-04-14 22:24:55 <diki> *thinking
3779 2013-04-14 22:26:14 <gruez> sipa: nvm, I just needed to wait a while before executing the command
3780 2013-04-14 22:26:34 Tritonio has joined
3781 2013-04-14 22:26:41 <sipa> diki: it encodes numbers a bit differently when using bignum instead of ints
3782 2013-04-14 22:26:46 <sipa> diki: don't bother
3783 2013-04-14 22:26:48 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
3784 2013-04-14 22:26:56 <diki> sipa:Why not?
3785 2013-04-14 22:27:28 santoscork has joined
3786 2013-04-14 22:27:34 <[joe_k]> wow! i have message signing apparently working... but in this python code im copying it uses chr(len(msg))) in the msg magic.... certainly it's supposed to deal with messages > 255 chars?
3787 2013-04-14 22:27:51 <sipa> diki: because it doesn't matter; the coinbase is mostly arbitrary data anyway
3788 2013-04-14 22:28:06 <jgarzik> [joe_k]: Sounds like you should be using https://github.com/jgarzik/python-bitcoinlib :)
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3800 2013-04-14 22:34:03 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I keep hearing reports bitcoinrpc is broken still :<
3801 2013-04-14 22:34:17 n215_home has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3802 2013-04-14 22:34:36 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: post some of these reports in an issue, please
3803 2013-04-14 22:34:43 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: they're not filtering up to me
3804 2013-04-14 22:35:37 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: just git pulled and can't reproduce them, so going to assume PEBKAC until the next time someone complains to me I guess
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3817 2013-04-14 22:44:21 <gruez> sipa: is it possible to configure your script so the vm has more time to start?
3818 2013-04-14 22:44:48 <gruez> my vm passes the sanity check, but whenever I try to run the build, it times out at banner exchange
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3822 2013-04-14 22:46:02 <sipa> gruez: you'll need to tweak gitian-builder/libexec/start-target for that
3823 2013-04-14 22:46:23 <sipa> eh, on-target
3824 2013-04-14 22:46:57 <gruez> aww
3825 2013-04-14 22:47:11 <sipa> there's an -oConnectTimeout=5
3826 2013-04-14 22:49:36 <gruez> sipa: how long does a build take?
3827 2013-04-14 22:49:50 <sipa> an hour or so
3828 2013-04-14 22:50:20 <gp5st> here's a stupid question. is it possible to create a message/sig/something-i-can-give-someone-else, not a tx, that can only be valid/created if a a certain # of btc are in a certain address?
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3833 2013-04-14 22:52:40 <kadoban> gp5st: well, the blockchain itself can give someone that information, if that helps? you can check the balance of any address
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3837 2013-04-14 22:53:32 <gp5st> kadoban: yeah, i know. i was hoping for some way to say to someone i've given you this much and i can prove it (without you having to check the blockchain)
3838 2013-04-14 22:53:49 i2pRelay has joined
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3841 2013-04-14 22:54:49 <sipa> gp5st: that's not possible, as that information wouldn't autodestruct when you spend the coins
3842 2013-04-14 22:55:15 <gp5st> sipa: i don't need it to self destruct once the coins are spent, just not creatable before the coins are in the given account
3843 2013-04-14 22:55:30 sharperguy has joined
3844 2013-04-14 22:55:37 <gp5st> and i can mean total in the account, not just a tx if that makes anything easier
3845 2013-04-14 22:56:27 <sipa> gp5st: you can sign a message to prove you own and address + give the transaction that credits it + its merkle path to the chain
3846 2013-04-14 22:56:39 <sipa> gp5st: they'll still need the chain to validate it
3847 2013-04-14 22:57:04 <gp5st> yeah
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3850 2013-04-14 22:59:21 Apexseals has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3851 2013-04-14 22:59:37 <diki> sipa:But still, which function would CBigNum(4) correspond to, from all the overloaded ones?
3852 2013-04-14 23:00:04 <Vinnie_win> Did the problem of economically unspendable outputs get resolved?
3853 2013-04-14 23:00:07 <gruez> sipa: i think your build script is entering into some sort of loop
3854 2013-04-14 23:00:12 <sipa> diki: it's the CBigNum constructor
3855 2013-04-14 23:00:14 <gruez> where it's constantly trying to rebuild
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3857 2013-04-14 23:00:24 <sipa> heh
3858 2013-04-14 23:00:27 <gruez> i was seeing "running build script"
3859 2013-04-14 23:00:28 ielo has joined
3860 2013-04-14 23:00:31 <gruez> a few minutes later
3861 2013-04-14 23:00:40 <gruez> it went back to "updating packages" or something
3862 2013-04-14 23:00:47 <gruez> and all the build logs were gone
3863 2013-04-14 23:01:10 <sipa> it runs several times
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3868 2013-04-14 23:05:43 <diki> sipa:There are a bunch of constructors.
3869 2013-04-14 23:06:24 <sipa> diki: the one with matching types
3870 2013-04-14 23:06:47 <sipa> diki: please, learn C++ before digging into the code, instead of asking everything here
3871 2013-04-14 23:06:53 <diki> Then that would be CBigNum(int n)              { BN_init(this); if (n >= 0) setulong(n); else setint64(n); }
3872 2013-04-14 23:06:59 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3873 2013-04-14 23:07:08 <sipa> indeed
3874 2013-04-14 23:07:13 <diki> sipa:I learn C++ by exploring code.
3875 2013-04-14 23:07:27 <gruez> sipa: is there a way to log the script's output, and monitor it at the same time?
3876 2013-04-14 23:07:31 <diki> same way I did with C, I didn't know anything till I started reading the cgminer code
3877 2013-04-14 23:07:42 Apexseals has joined
3878 2013-04-14 23:07:48 <gruez> if i pipe the output, it won't display on the console
3879 2013-04-14 23:08:12 melvster1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3880 2013-04-14 23:08:49 <sipa> gruez: | tee -a output.log
3881 2013-04-14 23:09:21 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3882 2013-04-14 23:09:53 i2pRelay has joined
3883 2013-04-14 23:10:23 <kadoban> diki: not to get too much into it here, but that's a really bad way to learn C++. looking at code should be a supplement, not the only way you learn. C++ is pretty complicated, a good book is essential
3884 2013-04-14 23:10:30 n215_home has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3885 2013-04-14 23:11:04 <diki> kadoban:If you enter the #c channel you will most likely meet CaZe who for the last few years has nagged me to get a book.
3886 2013-04-14 23:11:21 <diki> What I am trying to say is that I am not much of a book person, and more of a trial and error guy.
3887 2013-04-14 23:11:31 <kadoban> fair enough. i don't hang out there, i'm bad at C ;)
3888 2013-04-14 23:11:44 stalled has joined
3889 2013-04-14 23:11:48 jtimon_ has joined
3890 2013-04-14 23:12:05 <jgarzik> C++ lesson #1: nothing is as it seems.
3891 2013-04-14 23:12:42 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3892 2013-04-14 23:12:47 <Luke-Jr> lol
3893 2013-04-14 23:14:03 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
3894 2013-04-14 23:16:52 median^ has joined
3895 2013-04-14 23:17:01 <diki> jgarzik:true that
3896 2013-04-14 23:17:17 gaul1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3897 2013-04-14 23:17:25 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3898 2013-04-14 23:17:55 i2pRelay has joined
3899 2013-04-14 23:18:54 Insu_Dra has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3900 2013-04-14 23:20:19 andyh2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3901 2013-04-14 23:20:45 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
3902 2013-04-14 23:21:10 <diki> someone must be ddos-ing bitcointalk again
3903 2013-04-14 23:21:13 <diki> loading really really slow
3904 2013-04-14 23:21:19 paraipan has joined
3905 2013-04-14 23:21:21 amantonop has joined
3906 2013-04-14 23:22:07 <Vinnie_win> damnit I just noticed that.
3907 2013-04-14 23:22:15 amantonop has left ()
3908 2013-04-14 23:22:54 Insu_Dra has joined
3909 2013-04-14 23:22:54 <Vinnie_win> and mtgox is crashing.
3910 2013-04-14 23:23:12 <diki> when was mtgox ever NOT crashing?
3911 2013-04-14 23:23:35 sharperguy has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3912 2013-04-14 23:23:35 <diki> they have 2 slogans
3913 2013-04-14 23:23:47 <diki> One is "Rollback!" the other is "Market Cooldown".
3914 2013-04-14 23:24:04 <BlueMatt> this is not #mtgox
3915 2013-04-14 23:25:13 <upb> there are three actually, the 3rd is 'trade with confidence 24/7'
3916 2013-04-14 23:25:28 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3917 2013-04-14 23:25:31 macboz has joined
3918 2013-04-14 23:25:58 i2pRelay has joined
3919 2013-04-14 23:25:59 <diki> upb:s/confidence/lag
3920 2013-04-14 23:26:06 nomailing1 has joined
3921 2013-04-14 23:26:13 <BlueMatt> seriously, take it to #i-hate-mtgox
3922 2013-04-14 23:26:28 <diki> BlueMatt:Sorry, sorry. Was last time.
3923 2013-04-14 23:27:20 <diki> In the meantime, is there any way to speedup compilation of Bitcoin? Seems every single file I change that affects the whole software, it gets rebuilt with staggering 15-20 seconds per file.
3924 2013-04-14 23:27:39 <BlueMatt> distcc
3925 2013-04-14 23:27:53 <sipa> make -j 8
3926 2013-04-14 23:28:06 Elmf has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3927 2013-04-14 23:28:25 <sipa> (and yes, there are plans to reduce the dependencies)
3928 2013-04-14 23:28:35 <BlueMatt> there are?
3929 2013-04-14 23:28:35 nomailin1 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3930 2013-04-14 23:28:42 <BlueMatt> there has been talk of that for...years?
3931 2013-04-14 23:29:07 <sipa> haha
3932 2013-04-14 23:29:14 <sipa> a little more concrete :)
3933 2013-04-14 23:29:20 * BlueMatt missed something?
3934 2013-04-14 23:29:39 Elmf has joined
3935 2013-04-14 23:30:08 bibbybob has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3936 2013-04-14 23:30:16 <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2154#issuecomment-12610332
3937 2013-04-14 23:30:24 rusty2 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3938 2013-04-14 23:30:32 <sipa> the pullreq is outdated, but the plan is easy enough
3939 2013-04-14 23:30:45 <BlueMatt> ahh, ok yes
3940 2013-04-14 23:31:13 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
3941 2013-04-14 23:31:46 Graet has joined
3942 2013-04-14 23:31:57 Cache_Money has joined
3943 2013-04-14 23:33:28 <BlueMatt> (except the pull never got pulled and is now outdated...)
3944 2013-04-14 23:33:29 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3945 2013-04-14 23:33:46 <sipa> sure, it was intended to be rewritten anway
3946 2013-04-14 23:33:47 * BlueMatt votes for a hardfork to steal 1% of all BTC to hire code-review devs
3947 2013-04-14 23:33:51 <sipa> haha
3948 2013-04-14 23:34:00 i2pRelay has joined
3949 2013-04-14 23:34:22 Belxjander has joined
3950 2013-04-14 23:34:42 jtimon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3951 2013-04-14 23:35:21 <supercell> include OP_URL too
3952 2013-04-14 23:35:23 <supercell> ... jk
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3955 2013-04-14 23:36:06 paulo_ has joined
3956 2013-04-14 23:39:40 kadoban has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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3958 2013-04-14 23:40:35 plaisn has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3959 2013-04-14 23:41:19 bytecoin has joined
3960 2013-04-14 23:41:27 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: needs to be at least 10% so we can build them a fortress of solitude in the artic circle to isolate them from trolls.
3961 2013-04-14 23:41:30 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3962 2013-04-14 23:41:41 <bytecoin> jgarzik are you there?
3963 2013-04-14 23:41:42 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: good point
3964 2013-04-14 23:42:02 i2pRelay has joined
3965 2013-04-14 23:42:02 <bytecoin> I have never seen this construct in pure C
3966 2013-04-14 23:42:04 <bytecoin> http://pastebin.com/NAw0C62X
3967 2013-04-14 23:42:27 <bytecoin> ['0'] = 0x00   ?  wtf
3968 2013-04-14 23:42:46 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3969 2013-04-14 23:43:03 <andytoshi> bytecoin: it lets you convert from strings to hexadecimal easily i suppose
3970 2013-04-14 23:43:15 kadoban has joined
3971 2013-04-14 23:43:27 <bytecoin> anyone know the answer
3972 2013-04-14 23:43:32 Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3973 2013-04-14 23:43:33 <bytecoin> i can always guess myself
3974 2013-04-14 23:43:37 <copumpkin> doesn't that just translate to [48] = 0x00?
3975 2013-04-14 23:43:55 <andytoshi> copumpkin: if you are using ASCII or some derivative, yes
3976 2013-04-14 23:43:57 <jgarzik> bytecoin: yes
3977 2013-04-14 23:43:59 <copumpkin> which is just initializing certain cells of the array to certain values
3978 2013-04-14 23:44:00 <andytoshi> C does not require that
3979 2013-04-14 23:44:16 <jgarzik> bytecoin: ['0'] is the ASCII character '0'
3980 2013-04-14 23:44:32 <bytecoin> why place it between []
3981 2013-04-14 23:45:00 plains has joined
3982 2013-04-14 23:45:28 <copumpkin> it seems like generic array initializer notation to me, even though I haven't seen it before
3983 2013-04-14 23:45:29 <sipa> gruez: !
3984 2013-04-14 23:45:37 <sipa> gruez: how old is your gitian-builder?
3985 2013-04-14 23:45:39 <copumpkin> http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.1.2/gcc/Designated-Inits.html
3986 2013-04-14 23:45:49 <copumpkin> To specify an array index, write `[index] =' before the element value. For example, int a[6] = { [4] = 29, [2] = 15 };
3987 2013-04-14 23:45:52 <copumpkin> there you go
3988 2013-04-14 23:45:54 <gmaxwell> bytecoin: thats a gnuism, a "subobject"
3989 2013-04-14 23:46:31 <bytecoin> i dont do gnu, i was porting to visual studio
3990 2013-04-14 23:46:51 <bytecoin> is it C99 standard?
3991 2013-04-14 23:46:54 <bytecoin> or gnu?
3992 2013-04-14 23:47:01 EPiKSiNG- is now known as EPiSKiNG-
3993 2013-04-14 23:47:04 <gmaxwell> Apparently, but Visual studio is not C99.
3994 2013-04-14 23:47:32 andyh2 has joined
3995 2013-04-14 23:47:53 <gmaxwell> Visual studio does some C99-isms that are in C++ but it doesn't comply with C99. (This is one of the reasons I regretfully take c99 stuff out of code intended to be highly portable)
3996 2013-04-14 23:48:04 saracen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3997 2013-04-14 23:48:17 saracen has joined
3998 2013-04-14 23:48:29 <bytecoin> ok
3999 2013-04-14 23:48:38 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: meh, if you're using msvc its your own damn fault
4000 2013-04-14 23:48:47 MobGod has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
4001 2013-04-14 23:48:50 <bytecoin> by the way, the array can be 128 in size not 256
4002 2013-04-14 23:48:55 andytoshi has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0)
4003 2013-04-14 23:48:57 <bytecoin> ascii is 7  bit not 8 bit
4004 2013-04-14 23:49:33 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4005 2013-04-14 23:50:04 i2pRelay has joined
4006 2013-04-14 23:50:31 kaniini has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
4007 2013-04-14 23:50:33 <sipa> bytes are 8 bits, though
4008 2013-04-14 23:51:18 daveluke has joined
4009 2013-04-14 23:51:43 <bytecoin> shit i didnt know that, and the sky looks blue too
4010 2013-04-14 23:51:57 Namworld has joined
4011 2013-04-14 23:52:08 <bytecoin> if you look at the code, you will see the size of the array is 256
4012 2013-04-14 23:52:11 median^ has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
4013 2013-04-14 23:52:11 <bytecoin> 128 of wastage
4014 2013-04-14 23:52:18 <gmaxwell> I'm not sure what code thats for, but it probably shouldn't be an array. The symbols there are largely contigious.  c<'0'?-1:(c>='9'?c-'0':...)
4015 2013-04-14 23:52:31 <jgarzik> bytecoin: what copumpkin said :)
4016 2013-04-14 23:52:48 MobGod has joined
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4018 2013-04-14 23:52:49 MobGod has joined
4019 2013-04-14 23:52:55 <bytecoin> its easy to see that its a fast translation between ascii hash and binary value
4020 2013-04-14 23:53:23 <bytecoin> the alternative is leaner scan of a smaller array (only 16 bytes in size ) 0x00-0x0f
4021 2013-04-14 23:53:25 <jgarzik> bytecoin: everything not explicitly initialized is set to zero by the compiler
4022 2013-04-14 23:53:27 ProfMac has joined
4023 2013-04-14 23:53:30 <bytecoin> linear*
4024 2013-04-14 23:53:44 <jgarzik> bbiab, dinner
4025 2013-04-14 23:53:44 <bytecoin> yeah, i get that, the gnuism
4026 2013-04-14 23:54:24 <bytecoin> VC doesnt support it, so I have to intialize to smaller 'f' would work the same
4027 2013-04-14 23:54:38 <BlueMatt> can I ask why we discussed this code fragment for so long?
4028 2013-04-14 23:54:57 <bytecoin> I didnt know what gnuism was, this was answered
4029 2013-04-14 23:55:07 <bytecoin> but a lot of folks liked to do offtangent stuff
4030 2013-04-14 23:55:29 <bytecoin> thanks jgarzik,
4031 2013-04-14 23:55:43 <copumpkin> make a patch with a simple conversion to a macro that does what gmaxwell said
4032 2013-04-14 23:56:45 ubias has quit (Quit: Leaving)
4033 2013-04-14 23:57:00 PartTimeLegend has quit (Quit: Leaving)
4034 2013-04-14 23:57:35 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
4035 2013-04-14 23:58:02 <bytecoin> he did?  naah,.., the array can be made smaller ,although VC cannot beat the lexical efficiency of the this gnuism ['0']= 0x00 etc
4036 2013-04-14 23:58:06 i2pRelay has joined
4037 2013-04-14 23:58:21 <bytecoin> porting it, so cant use above syntax
4038 2013-04-14 23:58:40 <wallet42> can an tx have 0 ouput? so alle inputs go to the miner?
4039 2013-04-14 23:59:04 <sipa> wallet42: no
4040 2013-04-14 23:59:08 andrew222 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
4041 2013-04-14 23:59:18 <sipa> it can have an output with value 0 though (whic is nonstandard now)