1 2013-04-16 00:00:06 phatpenguin has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
   2 2013-04-16 00:00:44 <BlueMatt> is it bad when one finds new and interesting software simply by browsing software that was manually installed on one's own machine?
   3 2013-04-16 00:00:58 <sipa> haha
   4 2013-04-16 00:01:08 sharperguy has joined
   5 2013-04-16 00:01:20 <sipa> hmm, running a process with 1000 threads seems painful for VM usage
   6 2013-04-16 00:01:37 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yea, I do that.. when I upgrade fedora I first dump the package list.. then reinstall.. then diff the package list and reinstall the stuff I lost.. sometimes I discover interesting things that way.
   7 2013-04-16 00:02:11 <sipa>   PID USER      PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR S %CPU %MEM    TIME+  COMMAND
   8 2013-04-16 00:02:14 <sipa>  9107 pw        20   0 9306m 316m 2108 S    5  7.9   6:00.68 dnsseed
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  10 2013-04-16 00:03:29 <BlueMatt> sipa: ouch
  11 2013-04-16 00:03:46 <sipa> you can tweak the stack size for the threads, but why bother? :)
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  13 2013-04-16 00:04:07 <BlueMatt> heh
  14 2013-04-16 00:04:30 i2pRelay has joined
  15 2013-04-16 00:04:31 <gmaxwell> yea.. that about 1000 threads? :P
  16 2013-04-16 00:04:32 <sipa> also, i should use asio and do multiple connections per thread, but this works remarkably well, actually
  17 2013-04-16 00:05:07 <BlueMatt> sipa: thats why you use an entire bitcoin library that handles network for you!
  18 2013-04-16 00:05:26 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  19 2013-04-16 00:05:30 <sipa> BlueMatt: i did copy bitcoin's network code partially :)
  20 2013-04-16 00:05:53 <BlueMatt> hey,its better than the first dnsseed
  21 2013-04-16 00:06:00 macboz has joined
  22 2013-04-16 00:06:06 <BlueMatt> one new process per node check, and php to top it off!
  23 2013-04-16 00:06:15 <sipa> well, at the time it was the only dnsseed
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  26 2013-04-16 00:10:28 * HM2 laughs his arse off at "Blame it on MT.GOX"
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  30 2013-04-16 00:15:02 <alex-fun> :)
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  39 2013-04-16 00:26:15 <sipa> gavinandresen: why only a 24-hour alert?
  40 2013-04-16 00:26:24 ltrottier has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  41 2013-04-16 00:26:30 stretchwarren has joined
  42 2013-04-16 00:26:47 <sipa> there will be many people who run clients, but don't start it up every day
  43 2013-04-16 00:26:54 franl has left ("O Elbereth!  Gilthoniel!  We still remember ...")
  44 2013-04-16 00:27:17 <bawr> uhh, am I reading this right?
  45 2013-04-16 00:27:33 <bawr> line 19/21 transfers funds to a multi-sig
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  47 2013-04-16 00:27:49 <gavinandresen> sipa: sure… they'll get hit by the May 8'th alert
  48 2013-04-16 00:28:03 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  49 2013-04-16 00:28:07 <bawr> but when I decode that transaction, its output only has OP_HASH160 f815b036d9bbbce5e9f2a00abd1bf3dc91e95510 OP_EQUAL as its script.
  50 2013-04-16 00:28:09 Luke-Jr has joined
  51 2013-04-16 00:28:11 <sipa> gavinandresen: what is the reason for not having a 2-week alert for example?
  52 2013-04-16 00:28:14 <sipa> bawr: read BIP16
  53 2013-04-16 00:28:27 <sipa> gavinandresen: is there any downside to having a longer alert?
  54 2013-04-16 00:28:28 <diki> cbitcoin looks like a very nice project, but the author has been influenced a lot by python and every function has a parameter named self..
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  56 2013-04-16 00:28:47 <sipa> gavinandresen: (just asking, i'm not up to date with all alert semantics)
  57 2013-04-16 00:28:56 <gavinandresen> sipa: just alert fatigue:  "yeah yeah yeah, I've seen that alert six time snow and nothing bad happened..."
  58 2013-04-16 00:29:00 <diki> and jgarzik writes very good C code.
  59 2013-04-16 00:29:06 <diki> it's a pleasure to read his C code.
  60 2013-04-16 00:29:08 <sipa> gavinandresen: sure, that's why you need several
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  63 2013-04-16 00:31:41 <bawr> sipa: aaah
  64 2013-04-16 00:32:04 <bawr> sipa: sure, now it makes sense, for a minute I was totally lost
  65 2013-04-16 00:32:05 <gavinandresen> sipa: meh.  If I recall correctly, the plan was two one-day alerts ('immediately' and then one-month before), then a never-expiring alert 1 week before.
  66 2013-04-16 00:32:36 <gavinandresen> we care mostly about the always-running infrastructure being prepared well in advance.  users who run their clients once a week… meh
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  70 2013-04-16 00:34:40 <sipa> hmm, ok; 24 hours just seemed short to me
  71 2013-04-16 00:35:31 <bawr> sipa: one question though - why not just use the basic checkmultisig script as the pubkey? I mean, I can guess it solves something security-related, just not sure what.
  72 2013-04-16 00:35:48 <sipa> bawr: it doesn't
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  74 2013-04-16 00:36:00 <sipa> bawr: it just means multisig addresses can be short
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  76 2013-04-16 00:36:21 <bawr> oh
  77 2013-04-16 00:36:23 <sipa> as they would otherwise need to contain all pubkeys
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  79 2013-04-16 00:36:49 <sipa> and it is a basic checkmultisig, but inside a P2SH subscript
  80 2013-04-16 00:36:53 <bawr> I see. Yeah, that makes sense I guess.
  81 2013-04-16 00:37:36 <bawr> Yeah, unfortunately one can't quickly look into p2sh with the mainline RPC stuff.
  82 2013-04-16 00:37:42 <gavinandresen> A 3-key multisig wouldn't fit in a reasonable QR code is the main reason.
  83 2013-04-16 00:39:04 <bawr> aha, now I see how I could go about doing multisigs. thanks.
  84 2013-04-16 00:39:12 <sipa> P2SH has the advantage (and disadvantage) that you don't need to reveal the actual script to the sender
  85 2013-04-16 00:40:03 <bawr> but you need to remember it yourself, so to speak
  86 2013-04-16 00:40:42 <sipa> that's the disadvantage, indeed
  87 2013-04-16 00:40:47 <gavinandresen> sure, but you'll need to remember something anyway-- at the very least, who owns those other public keys, so you can talk to them to get them to sign
  88 2013-04-16 00:40:48 phungus has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  89 2013-04-16 00:41:56 <bawr> right.
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  97 2013-04-16 00:45:15 <Turingi> if P=NP, would bitcoin still be secure due to ripemd hashed signatures?
  98 2013-04-16 00:45:45 <Turingi> or at least resilient, until a stronger hash or better PKE were found
  99 2013-04-16 00:46:54 phungus has joined
 100 2013-04-16 00:48:51 <sipa> signatures aren't hashed
 101 2013-04-16 00:49:04 <gmaxwell> Turingi, if P==NP in a real pratical way then no, then one way functions wouldn't be secure either.
 102 2013-04-16 00:49:22 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin like things require strong one way functions to exist.
 103 2013-04-16 00:49:51 <Turingi> P could be NP, but still not practical (like ridiculous constants/exponents)
 104 2013-04-16 00:50:20 <gmaxwell> right, I qualified for a reason.
 105 2013-04-16 00:50:29 <Turingi> gmaxwell, is that all hashes in general?
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 108 2013-04-16 00:52:00 <gmaxwell> Turingi: (you may enjoy http://www.cs.ucsd.edu/users/russell/average.ps )
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 113 2013-04-16 00:56:07 <Turingi> gmaxwell: looks nice at a quick glance, I will add it to the top of the paper pile :)
 114 2013-04-16 00:56:13 <Turingi> to be read more in depth
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 127 2013-04-16 01:03:57 <jgarzik> sigh.  PM spam.  Anybody know the magic IRC incantation, that will prevent unauth'd users from PM'ing?
 128 2013-04-16 01:04:46 <franl> jgarzik, not sure, but maybe: /ignore nick
 129 2013-04-16 01:05:09 <jgarzik> There is something that is more pre-emptive
 130 2013-04-16 01:05:34 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: +R
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 132 2013-04-16 01:05:39 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
 133 2013-04-16 01:05:46 <gmaxwell> they're using random identities and hitting everyone in #bitcoin
 134 2013-04-16 01:05:54 Azetab has quit (Quit: Azetab)
 135 2013-04-16 01:06:44 <warren> a mask using "$~a" as hostname is capable of disallowing non-authenticated users from joining channels.  Would that work for /ignore's flags too?
 136 2013-04-16 01:06:50 jeffreywlai has joined
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 138 2013-04-16 01:07:10 * jgarzik reads freenode docs and wonders... what about +r for #bitcoin-dev?
 139 2013-04-16 01:07:21 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: we haven't generally needed it.
 140 2013-04-16 01:07:23 <warren> jgarzik: i've been suggesting that for months
 141 2013-04-16 01:07:46 <warren> you could do /quiet for non-authenticated users instead?
 142 2013-04-16 01:07:50 <gmaxwell> and, e.g. hm2 apparently had problems with it when I put it on #bitcoin-wizards
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 153 2013-04-16 01:15:36 <warren> jgarzik: for an individual user session, you can personally stop all unauthenticated user PM with "/umode +R"
 154 2013-04-16 01:15:58 <jgarzik> yep, just did /umode +R :)
 155 2013-04-16 01:16:02 <jgarzik> tnx
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 165 2013-04-16 01:18:34 <warren> jgarzik: /mode #channel +q $~a   ... let's unregistered users join channel but they can't speak.
 166 2013-04-16 01:19:45 RBecker is now known as rbecker
 167 2013-04-16 01:20:06 <gmaxwell> warren: then whomever is opped just gets flooded by "WHY AM I BANNED?!"
 168 2013-04-16 01:20:22 <gmaxwell> (clients tell you that you're banned when you try to talk while quieted)
 169 2013-04-16 01:20:38 <warren> well, then /mode +r instead =)
 170 2013-04-16 01:20:58 SvenDiagram has quit (Quit: SvenDiagram)
 171 2013-04-16 01:21:23 <gmaxwell> whenever OTC goes +q $~a I'll come back to my terminal with all these sad pleadings: "I'm so sorry. I didn't know it was forbidden to talk about puppies in here! I won't do it again, please unban me"
 172 2013-04-16 01:21:41 <gmaxwell> and, half the people that do this have a really hard time registering.
 173 2013-04-16 01:21:58 <gmaxwell> maybe it would be less bad in -dev. :)
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 176 2013-04-16 01:22:55 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: yah same here, even without joining #bitcoin-otc
 177 2013-04-16 01:23:08 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: I close windows mercilessly
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 187 2013-04-16 01:26:55 <gmaxwell> http://0bin.net/paste/04e54b1b727d757c664b96e8841f8cefb13de2f7#AzIxBy0HvpRL67a0cQl8Y0pgErXHZSBqTMWadc2oAwk=  < ones like this are also fun
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 193 2013-04-16 01:30:05 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: wow...just...wow
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 195 2013-04-16 01:30:41 <BlueMatt> what happens when we link to #bitcoin everywhere
 196 2013-04-16 01:30:56 <MC1984> ^lol
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 198 2013-04-16 01:31:47 <MC1984> why not just have awesomecool bookends on your nick
 199 2013-04-16 01:32:17 <MC1984> like Xx{t3hgmaxwell420}xX
 200 2013-04-16 01:32:20 <lianj> cause they don't know how to autocomplete anyway?
 201 2013-04-16 01:32:23 <MC1984> then you wont get gribbl spam no more
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 203 2013-04-16 01:32:55 <BlueMatt> its pretty hard to autocomplete gribble to gmaxwell
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 205 2013-04-16 01:33:08 <MC1984> not hard enough apparently
 206 2013-04-16 01:33:09 <gmaxwell> I show up next to gribble in gui IRC clients when I'm opped.
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 234 2013-04-16 02:02:33 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: LOL wtf
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 239 2013-04-16 02:07:17 <alex-fun> :)
 240 2013-04-16 02:07:40 <alex-fun> Luke-Jr:  its litecoin attack, hide :D
 241 2013-04-16 02:08:02 Satoshigames has joined
 242 2013-04-16 02:08:26 <alex-fun> well now did I knew it was some chain maddness
 243 2013-04-16 02:08:30 <Satoshigames> Try your luck at walking through a minefield! Freeplay option, also have a chance to win 10x your bet!  http://www.satoshi-karoshi.com/?r=9059
 244 2013-04-16 02:08:31 <alex-fun> hey Satoshigames :)
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 260 2013-04-16 02:28:05 <Garr255> hey, any devs watching?
 261 2013-04-16 02:28:27 <Garr255> I and a few others are in need of some help mining the first block for a newly created alt coin
 262 2013-04-16 02:28:35 <Garr255> hop on #noobcoin please!
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 275 2013-04-16 02:31:21 <jgarzik> Garr255: make sure you change pchMessageStart
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 283 2013-04-16 02:33:43 <Garr255> jgarzik, do you know where that is declared?
 284 2013-04-16 02:34:11 * lianj dies a little inside
 285 2013-04-16 02:34:33 <Garr255> lianj, I've had that feeling a lot talking to kids in #noobcoin, don't worry
 286 2013-04-16 02:34:46 <jgarzik> Garr255: You are starting an altcoin, and cannot do a search?  :)  main.cpp
 287 2013-04-16 02:36:04 <warren> If someone released a tool and HOWTO to create your own alt coin, it might cause so many to be created that people will realize how stupid it is.
 288 2013-04-16 02:36:15 <Garr255> jgarzik, I'm not experianced enough to start an alt coin, I'm just making some simple instructions providing a base for how to do it. If you can't do: teach. right? :P
 289 2013-04-16 02:36:26 <Garr255> warren, that's precisely what we're trying to do
 290 2013-04-16 02:36:33 <Garr255> although not quite the same goal
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 293 2013-04-16 02:36:56 <Garr255> personally, I want to make it nesecary for alt-coins to be actually advantagous, and not just a clone
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 299 2013-04-16 02:38:58 <Garr255> jgarzik, are the values of pchMessageStart significant, or arbitrary?
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 301 2013-04-16 02:39:09 <jgarzik> Garr255: arbitrary
 302 2013-04-16 02:39:24 <Garr255> thanks
 303 2013-04-16 02:40:04 <lianj> (maybe not collide with other altchains and use different port, different address_version, privkey_version
 304 2013-04-16 02:40:10 viperhr1 has joined
 305 2013-04-16 02:42:56 <rowit> Garr255: Thank you - attention needs to be brought to altcoins vs bitcoins.  Difference in core dev and fundamentals are night and day.  MtGox even entertaining Litecoin is awful for everyone and begging more instability
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 308 2013-04-16 02:44:56 <jgarzik> lianj: yep
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 311 2013-04-16 02:45:20 <jgarzik> I am more pro-experimentation than most.  I wouldn't mind a "how to do your own alt-coin" guide in the git repo.
 312 2013-04-16 02:45:39 <jgarzik> It would be a fun introduction for students
 313 2013-04-16 02:45:46 <jgarzik> and megalomaniacs
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 321 2013-04-16 02:49:07 <Garr255> jgarzik, yeah I'm having tons of fun figuring all of this out :P
 322 2013-04-16 02:49:22 <Garr255> getting to know bitcoin quite a bit better :)
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 369 2013-04-16 03:44:33 <diki> so uhm, what does p2sh do? what does a multisig transaction do and why is it needed?
 370 2013-04-16 03:45:08 <diki> the bip16 wiki article is a bit confusing
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 380 2013-04-16 03:51:06 <BlueMatt> woo probabilistic clearing of device with keyfile for drive encryption if you fuck up complete, go ahead and try NSA :P
 381 2013-04-16 03:52:05 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: hm?
 382 2013-04-16 03:52:28 <BlueMatt> if you read from the wrong place on the device which stores the keyfile, it clears itself
 383 2013-04-16 03:53:01 <gmaxwell> I am missing some context!
 384 2013-04-16 03:53:17 <gmaxwell> have you changed the firmware on your drive?
 385 2013-04-16 03:53:20 <BlueMatt> full drive encryption (with keyfile on flash drive)
 386 2013-04-16 03:53:22 <BlueMatt> yes
 387 2013-04-16 03:53:45 <gmaxwell> How? that sounds fun!
 388 2013-04-16 03:53:59 <gmaxwell> (also dangerous!)
 389 2013-04-16 03:54:12 <BlueMatt> well, actually used a usb dev device, the actual storage is on a sd card, but its encrypted in firmware (that is unreadable without clearing it first)...
 390 2013-04-16 03:54:16 <BlueMatt> yay indirection
 391 2013-04-16 03:54:40 <gmaxwell> ah. I see!
 392 2013-04-16 03:54:45 <BlueMatt> and, yes, keys are backed up using secret sharing, to be distributed to trusted 3rd parties outside of us jurisdiction
 393 2013-04-16 03:54:47 <BlueMatt> :)
 394 2013-04-16 03:54:56 * BlueMatt isnt paranoid I swear
 395 2013-04-16 03:55:03 <BlueMatt> (fun project though)
 396 2013-04-16 03:55:57 <gmaxwell> Yea, a friend of mine who gets targeted by authorities on border crossing encrypts his drive with a new key and gpg's the key to his attorney, so that only his attorney can unlock it before crossing the border.
 397 2013-04-16 03:56:38 <BlueMatt> ouch
 398 2013-04-16 03:56:46 <gmaxwell> And he has been stopped and attempted to be searched since he started doing this, and gave them his attornies card and told them he couldn't unlock it. ... and he did not end up in guantanamo!
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 401 2013-04-16 03:57:21 <gmaxwell> It does mean that he can't use his computer once he gets through the border until he gets the drive decrypted.
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 405 2013-04-16 03:58:10 <BlueMatt> conveniently, if I accidentally transpose the numbers in the selection of keysector (not actually a keyfile, just a sector you have to enter) due to stress, it will clear
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 407 2013-04-16 03:59:36 <alex-fun> :)
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 409 2013-04-16 04:01:12 <saracen> Reading this channel makes me wonder whether manufacturing fashionable tinfoil hats, that don't rustle when you move, is a viable business idea.
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 411 2013-04-16 04:02:28 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: another fun thing to do would be to implement https://lwn.net/Articles/469847/ in it
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 413 2013-04-16 04:03:50 <gmaxwell> the advantage of having dm-steg in such a device is that if your whole system image was dmstegd there would be less risk of information leaks about the existance of hidden volumes.
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 415 2013-04-16 04:05:18 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: that + some really awesome things you can do with a usb dev board re: anti-forensice (like find a vulnerable kernel module (apparently not that hard) fix the bug, and then make the flash drive crash all other linux boxes but your own, then implement some basic things which detect os reading and block non-linuxes)
 416 2013-04-16 04:05:26 <BlueMatt> see original talk I got the idea from: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijyAwxH_iok
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 419 2013-04-16 04:05:43 <BlueMatt> (hey, who has time to audit usb drivers for extremely obscure devices)
 420 2013-04-16 04:06:52 <BlueMatt> saracen: ooo, Ill buy one (no seriously, one cant implement cool ideas when you watch an interesting talk?)
 421 2013-04-16 04:09:44 <saracen> In truth, I'd love to play around with what you're doing. But, if I did actually have anything super secret to hide, with the UK government there would be little use :(
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 423 2013-04-16 04:10:37 <BlueMatt> yea, I have no doubt if the govt wanted me to decrypt my drives, I would end up doing it
 424 2013-04-16 04:10:50 <BlueMatt> still, any non-state actors are gonna have a hell of a time getting in
 425 2013-04-16 04:12:28 <saivann> The new press center for the website needs ACK, if you want to take a look : https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/139
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 432 2013-04-16 04:15:06 <saracen> I don't know what my input is worth, but I'm not sure I like the dropdown text for the "Facts, FAQs and Myths" section
 433 2013-04-16 04:16:28 <saivann> saracen : Any suggestion of a better way to handle this?
 434 2013-04-16 04:16:54 <gmaxwell> We're really going to list Matonis on the site? (e.g. https://plus.google.com/100109831949151899859/posts/Y3m5cYBiNUM and many others…)
 435 2013-04-16 04:17:58 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I objected to that in a former pull request that has since disappeared(!)
 436 2013-04-16 04:18:34 <saivann> gmaxwell : Isn't Matonis a good person to represent Bitcoin?
 437 2013-04-16 04:18:45 <saivann> Luke-Jr : That pull request was a mistake that I closed
 438 2013-04-16 04:18:48 <gmaxwell> saivann: I provided a url there for a reason.
 439 2013-04-16 04:18:49 <Luke-Jr> saivann: no! he's one of the extremeist anarchists
 440 2013-04-16 04:19:16 <gmaxwell> I can provide more examples. Matonis makes me worried that I'm going to be subject to prosecution due to his statements.
 441 2013-04-16 04:19:48 <saracen> saivann: I'd not have the dropdowns side-by-side. Or put the FAQ at the bottom fully expanded, but with a listing at the start with anchors that move the page down to the relevant section.
 442 2013-04-16 04:19:53 sebicas has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 443 2013-04-16 04:19:57 <gmaxwell> He's positions are very radical, and I don't agree with them— but even more than not agreeing with them they are of a character that I feel creates danger for the project.
 444 2013-04-16 04:20:09 <saivann> Please leave a note on this on the pull request if you feel it's a blocking issue.
 445 2013-04-16 04:20:15 <saivann> I see..
 446 2013-04-16 04:20:47 <copumpkin> I sometimes wish I could be a part of the bitcoin community minus all the politics and paranoia that seem to come with it
 447 2013-04-16 04:21:02 <saivann> saracen : Is it because you feel the text is too much wrapped in a small space?
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 450 2013-04-16 04:22:11 <saivann> Luke-Jr : Can you mention Jon Matonis specifically in your comment (and others if your comment also target other interviewees)
 451 2013-04-16 04:22:15 <saracen> saivann: That, and when you expand an element, it makes it looks like the element beside it has also been expanded but lacks text.
 452 2013-04-16 04:22:46 <Luke-Jr> saivann: added them to my comment as an edit
 453 2013-04-16 04:22:48 <saivann> saracen : Yeah, I made it that way for IE7-8 compatibility. Otherwise it would work a bit differently
 454 2013-04-16 04:22:59 <saivann> Luke-Jr : Thanks
 455 2013-04-16 04:24:39 <saivann> Roger Ver is an energic libertarian from what I know. But regardless, IMO, for the interviews I've seen, the result was quite good.
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 457 2013-04-16 04:26:16 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I'd recommend piling up links and pulling quotes of some of the most cringe-worthy things.
 458 2013-04-16 04:26:27 <Luke-Jr> Roger Ver might know when to shut up in public - I think most of my impression of him came from his somewhat-private Facebook page
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 460 2013-04-16 04:27:24 <gmaxwell> I'm very happy that Bitcoin attracts people of diverse political backgrounds— including ones I find distasteful— but when someone speaks for Bitcoin I'd hope that they would make it clear which politics are fundimental to Bitcoin (not many...) and which are their own.
 461 2013-04-16 04:28:11 <saivann> gmaxwell : Absolutely
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 466 2013-04-16 04:31:26 <saivann> We can very easily remove some interviewees from that pull request if there is disagreement, and discuss these issues seperately.
 467 2013-04-16 04:32:09 <Luke-Jr> I've re-edited my comment to only mention Matonis by name; Roger Ver's Facebook page is no longer visible to me for finding quotes
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 470 2013-04-16 04:34:07 <Transisto> Any idea what we are withnessing ? ... one or few individual selling coind by the 100k ?
 471 2013-04-16 04:34:36 ThomasV has joined
 472 2013-04-16 04:34:47 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I think if Roger has only said outlandish things on his facebook thats probably fine.
 473 2013-04-16 04:34:56 <saivann> Luke-Jr : However Matonis quotes about drug on his G+ account is pretty huge.. I can see the issue.
 474 2013-04-16 04:35:15 <Luke-Jr> yeah, I could get a number of quotes from Bitcoin Magazine as well for Matonis.. :/
 475 2013-04-16 04:35:37 <saivann> I wouldn't have expected this from the secretary of the foundation o_O
 476 2013-04-16 04:35:54 <gmaxwell> Yea, thats not the only thing like that he's said... His forbes articles are full of shockers.
 477 2013-04-16 04:36:31 <saivann> Regardless of the interviewees, are you OK with the idea?
 478 2013-04-16 04:36:40 <Luke-Jr> saivann: yeah, idea seems fine IMO
 479 2013-04-16 04:37:15 <Luke-Jr> hopefully the first Foundation elections will replace Matonis with someone more reasonable
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 483 2013-04-16 04:38:09 <muhoo> copumpkin: it's the one thing i really don't feel comfortable about, either, is some of the politics
 484 2013-04-16 04:38:37 <gmaxwell> saivann: idea in general seems reasonable, I haven't had a chance to go over the rest of the content— I may have a couple other nits.
 485 2013-04-16 04:38:37 <saivann> saracen : I will see if I can improve the dropdown. Though I don't see this as a blocking issue. But for sure I would also like to have it working differently.
 486 2013-04-16 04:39:16 <saivann> gmaxwell : Sure, I hope so. I want to content to be accurate.
 487 2013-04-16 04:39:52 <saivann> the content*
 488 2013-04-16 04:40:00 <Luke-Jr> saivann: how about fixing that FAQ on "BTC"? :p
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 490 2013-04-16 04:40:05 <muhoo> overall i noticed a shift in press coverage since this last bubble. 6 months ago, the narrative was all about scary crime and drugs. now the narrative is all about volatility, and the winkelvii. seems like a step up in legitimacy
 491 2013-04-16 04:40:28 <saivann> Luke-Jr : ??
 492 2013-04-16 04:40:30 <muhoo> if you want volatility, the NYSE has got plenty of it thankyouverymuch
 493 2013-04-16 04:40:45 <Luke-Jr> saivann: under Vocabulary
 494 2013-04-16 04:41:06 ColinT has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
 495 2013-04-16 04:41:15 <Luke-Jr> saivann: the abbreviation for Bitcoin-the-system has always been "BC"; "BTC" is the unit of currency
 496 2013-04-16 04:41:32 <saivann> Luke-Jr : Yeah, can you provide the sentence? I remember your request :)
 497 2013-04-16 04:42:44 <Luke-Jr> maybe "BTC is the common unit of Bitcoin currency. It can be used similar to USD for US dollar instead of B⃦ vs $."
 498 2013-04-16 04:42:48 <Luke-Jr> or something like that
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 500 2013-04-16 04:43:10 <saivann> Luke-Jr : Good thanks, will be updated in a few hours
 501 2013-04-16 04:43:22 <gmaxwell> I wonder if today's bitcoin movements were as big as today's S&P500 in terms of number of standard deviations.
 502 2013-04-16 04:43:51 <saivann> I was just a bit unsure about this one and didn't want to produce a weird french looking sentence
 503 2013-04-16 04:44:06 <saracen> saivann: Would there be any objection if I were to have my girlfriend proofread the site? (She's a proofreader...).
 504 2013-04-16 04:44:06 <Luke-Jr> saivann: I wonder if it might make sense to rephrase the whole question to define B⃦ as well; not seeing that now that I look for it
 505 2013-04-16 04:44:33 <saivann> saracen : I will never have any objection to proof-reading. Thanks
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 507 2013-04-16 04:45:08 * BlueMatt still isnt sure about the fact that we stole the symbol for the thai baht...
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 509 2013-04-16 04:45:23 <saracen> saivann: :) Hopefully I'll have a pull request towards the end of the week.
 510 2013-04-16 04:45:25 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: we didn't, Baht only has one bar
 511 2013-04-16 04:45:26 <saivann> Luke-Jr : I have no problem with that. I thought BTC was the most common form and sticked to it.
 512 2013-04-16 04:45:27 <BlueMatt> "no, I dont accept bitcoin, I accept baht"
 513 2013-04-16 04:45:36 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: who pays attention to that?
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 515 2013-04-16 04:45:58 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: dunno, I think the only major site using baht is SR tho
 516 2013-04-16 04:46:24 <gmaxwell> The symbol luke used above is not the baht.
 517 2013-04-16 04:46:48 <BlueMatt> yes, yes, different character code/bar count...looks the same on a smallish font
 518 2013-04-16 04:47:35 <saivann> Luke-Jr : BTW, I don't see the issue you are pointing there, any more details? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/118#discussion-diff-3707005
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 522 2013-04-16 04:48:30 <saracen> It seems that when refering to the Bitcoin network / technology, "Bitcoin" is used. When refering to the currency "bitcoin" (lowercase) or "bitcoins" used. Is this correct?
 523 2013-04-16 04:48:31 <Luke-Jr> saivann: I've never seen a temporary environment use a non-standard keyboard layout by default
 524 2013-04-16 04:48:59 PhantomSpark has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 525 2013-04-16 04:49:14 <Luke-Jr> saracen: yes; except when using a numberic amount of currency, it should be "<n> BTC" or "B⃦<n>"
 526 2013-04-16 04:49:40 <saivann> Luke-Jr : That might be because you are an english speaker. Any non-english speaker that boots Ubuntu for instance ends up with an english layout, or a layout that is not exactly the right one for each language.
 527 2013-04-16 04:50:10 <Luke-Jr> saivann: still, "possibly" seems better than "likely" here
 528 2013-04-16 04:50:22 <saivann> Luke-Jr : Right, fair enough
 529 2013-04-16 04:50:45 <copumpkin> hey, it's not the first currency symbol to be overloaded
 530 2013-04-16 04:51:05 <muhoo> gmaxwell: i'm certain you could pick individual stocks or commodities that are much more volatile than BTC has been in recent months.
 531 2013-04-16 04:51:14 * Luke-Jr wishes he knew how to put B⃦ on his keyboard mapping
 532 2013-04-16 04:51:43 <copumpkin> the yen and the yuan share the symbol, and the italian lira used to use a very similar symbol to the english pound
 533 2013-04-16 04:51:48 <copumpkin> (again with two bars instead of one)
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 540 2013-04-16 04:55:18 <saivann> jgarzik : Ho, you want to be in the list? I will gladly add you if you provide your picture ;-)
 541 2013-04-16 04:55:43 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik++  for press contact
 542 2013-04-16 04:55:47 <jgarzik> saivann: http://www.bitcoin2013.com/bitcoin-2013-panelists.html
 543 2013-04-16 04:56:15 <Garr255> hey guys, how to I put the integer equivalant of 100 in the same format as (~uint256(0) >> 32); ?
 544 2013-04-16 04:56:17 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: heh, thanks :)  At least I'm not an anarchist :)
 545 2013-04-16 04:56:25 <BlueMatt> wat? no ponytail in that picture
 546 2013-04-16 04:56:36 <saivann> jgarzik : You will be there in a few hours. That being said, do you have a picture with a better light. This one is a bit dark.
 547 2013-04-16 04:56:41 <jgarzik> My hair's been short for at least six months :)
 548 2013-04-16 04:56:50 <saivann> :)
 549 2013-04-16 04:56:51 <jgarzik> saivann: I wish
 550 2013-04-16 04:56:56 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: no, you're quite sane as long as we're not discussing tonal!
 551 2013-04-16 04:56:58 <Luke-Jr> :p
 552 2013-04-16 04:57:04 <copumpkin> Garr255: what?
 553 2013-04-16 04:57:17 <BlueMatt> I thought it was required that kernel programmers have pony tails :(
 554 2013-04-16 04:57:28 <Luke-Jr> (j/k, I don't even recall your views on tonal actually)
 555 2013-04-16 04:57:51 Thepok has joined
 556 2013-04-16 04:57:54 <saivann> jgarzik : If you have some links to interviews you've done, it could be good also
 557 2013-04-16 04:57:55 <copumpkin> I feel like we have a prior distribution on those though :)
 558 2013-04-16 04:58:03 <Garr255> copumpkin, I don't know how to program, let alone read that. I'm making the starting difficulty for an alt coin 100 instead of 1
 559 2013-04-16 04:58:15 <Luke-Jr> …
 560 2013-04-16 04:58:18 <copumpkin> hmmm
 561 2013-04-16 04:58:35 <Luke-Jr> "I don't know how to program, so I'm going to make my own altcoin!"
 562 2013-04-16 04:58:37 <Luke-Jr> <.<
 563 2013-04-16 04:58:46 <jgarzik> saivann: Go to news.google.com and search for 'garzik'.  Several links appear.
 564 2013-04-16 04:58:47 <Garr255> Luke-Jr, proves how easy it is
 565 2013-04-16 04:59:08 <jgarzik> saivann: I've been on the bitcoin-press list since it's inception
 566 2013-04-16 04:59:11 workman has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 567 2013-04-16 04:59:16 workman_ has joined
 568 2013-04-16 04:59:44 <saivann> jgarzik : Ok perfect, I was already searching. Is there one in particular you find to be better then the others?
 569 2013-04-16 04:59:47 <jgarzik> saivann: "Web Money Gets Laundering Rule" - WSJ.com etc.
 570 2013-04-16 04:59:48 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
 571 2013-04-16 05:00:17 AtashiCon has quit (Quit: AtashiCon)
 572 2013-04-16 05:00:54 <jgarzik> I need to find someone who reads Chinese :)  http://news.chinatimes.com/world/11050401/122013032300656.html
 573 2013-04-16 05:01:11 <Luke-Jr> lol
 574 2013-04-16 05:01:14 <jgarzik> It would be cool that someone picked Chinese characters for my name, as it appears to have been done
 575 2013-04-16 05:01:19 <Luke-Jr> apparently you must speak it
 576 2013-04-16 05:01:25 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 577 2013-04-16 05:01:59 i2pRelay has joined
 578 2013-04-16 05:02:14 <jgarzik> 加爾吉克 is my name, apparently
 579 2013-04-16 05:03:04 <jgarzik> Bitcoin is 比特幣.  Google Translate is quite sure of this.
 580 2013-04-16 05:03:24 andyh2 has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
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 582 2013-04-16 05:05:00 <gmaxwell> +1 on jgarzik on the interview page
 583 2013-04-16 05:06:00 <BlueMatt> +1 for gmaxwell too
 584 2013-04-16 05:06:13 AtashiCon has joined
 585 2013-04-16 05:06:22 <BlueMatt> (at the risk of loading that page up on developers only...)
 586 2013-04-16 05:07:49 <BlueMatt> anyway, I like the page
 587 2013-04-16 05:07:51 * BlueMatt -> out
 588 2013-04-16 05:08:12 <jgarzik> Does gmaxwell do interviews?  I've never seen him respond, nor seen an article quoting him.
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 591 2013-04-16 05:10:34 <Luke-Jr> I figure gmaxwell would say so if he was interested.
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 593 2013-04-16 05:12:51 jeffreywlai has joined
 594 2013-04-16 05:13:53 <saivann> jgarzik : Pop! You're there : http://bitcoinpress2.us.to/en/bitcoin-for-press
 595 2013-04-16 05:14:21 <Arnavion> <@jgarzik> 加爾吉克 is my name, apparently < It sounds similar (jia er ji ke)
 596 2013-04-16 05:14:27 <gmaxwell> Somehow I've mostly managed to dodge it for Bitcoin stuff, I used to do press POC for wikimedia .... and learned to be really cynical about reporters.
 597 2013-04-16 05:14:58 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: rightfully so
 598 2013-04-16 05:15:40 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: you are forced to talk in soundbites that cannot be taken out of context.  you are asked 100 questions, only one of which is the "punch" question they really wanted to ask.
 599 2013-04-16 05:16:09 <gmaxwell> My SO is chairman of the board for wikimedia these days, and I've just given up looking at stuff where she's quoted. It's bad enough that I kid that she should just say the opposite of what she means so it'll come out right. :P
 600 2013-04-16 05:16:24 Namworld has quit ()
 601 2013-04-16 05:17:03 <gmaxwell> (she's actually become pretty good at it... I think I'm too wordy, and this creates room for misquotes)
 602 2013-04-16 05:17:30 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 603 2013-04-16 05:17:39 <sivu> gmaxwell: but she's a lawyer, right?
 604 2013-04-16 05:18:02 i2pRelay has joined
 605 2013-04-16 05:18:11 <sivu> lawyers know how to talk
 606 2013-04-16 05:18:19 <jgarzik> Oh and with bitcoin, you have to be careful not to appear to be promoting bitcoin as an investment
 607 2013-04-16 05:18:45 <gmaxwell> By training, yes. But her interests are in public policy, not all lawyers are type-a personality trial lawyers.
 608 2013-04-16 05:19:10 <jgarzik> Real life isn't like "Boston Legal"?
 609 2013-04-16 05:19:32 <sivu> i was thinking of 'good wife'
 610 2013-04-16 05:20:04 <Luke-Jr> side question: is anyone else here tempted to bring their whole family to the conference if it were possible? :p
 611 2013-04-16 05:20:37 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: At least in my informal discussions about Bitcoin I've generally found that people respond well to me agreeing that the financial side of Bitcoin is mildly insane.  The sort of odd result is that people start off defensive "it's a ponzi scheme" and then I agree that the market is nuts, and talk some about the motivations and technology ... and by the end of the conversation they're asking me how someone obtains some...
 612 2013-04-16 05:21:06 <Luke-Jr> lol
 613 2013-04-16 05:21:29 <sivu> jgarzik: in one episode they defended the alleged creator of bitcoin against state treasury
 614 2013-04-16 05:21:33 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I imagine that @ the conference they'd be bored— but there are many nice things to visit out here.
 615 2013-04-16 05:22:46 andyh2 has joined
 616 2013-04-16 05:23:23 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: sadly, I put the older two in school this year, so it's completely impractical :<
 617 2013-04-16 05:24:18 <gmaxwell> obviously there is San Francisco which has a lot of well known touristy destinations, ... I enjoyed treking out to the Lick Observatory once before I lived out here (though its quite a haul to get to). I'm told the computer history museum is good but somehow I've never managed to visit it. (perhaps during the conference we should arrange a side trip to that)
 618 2013-04-16 05:24:52 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: That's part of why I like to encourage at least [honest] thinking about alt-coins.  The financial side of bitcoin isn't necessarily as interesting to technologists as the underlying technology.
 619 2013-04-16 05:24:53 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
 620 2013-04-16 05:25:19 <jgarzik> Crypto-currency is a brand new concept.  Already many are inspired to experiment with PoW, PoS, ripple, and other fun because of bitcoin.
 621 2013-04-16 05:25:31 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 622 2013-04-16 05:25:33 <jgarzik> Bitcoin is the nexus of a Lot Of New Stuff in the computer science world.
 623 2013-04-16 05:25:54 <jgarzik> (ok, nothing is "brand new" but bitcoin is the first to prove it works)
 624 2013-04-16 05:26:03 i2pRelay has joined
 625 2013-04-16 05:26:18 <jgarzik> Once could just as easily create a KrugmanCoin that was highly inflationary, using bitcoin technology.
 626 2013-04-16 05:26:27 <jgarzik> *One
 627 2013-04-16 05:26:56 <jgarzik> So it makes me sad when smart people bash bitcoin in its entirety, when they are really complaining about only a small part of the bigger picture.
 628 2013-04-16 05:27:02 andyh2 has quit (Client Quit)
 629 2013-04-16 05:27:17 <jgarzik> saivann: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21964881 maybe better than IB Times
 630 2013-04-16 05:27:20 <MC1984> im starting to like the new site a lot more
 631 2013-04-16 05:27:22 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Indeed— though part of the magic is that it's not just a toy.  The technology and economics are intertwined.
 632 2013-04-16 05:27:43 qeb has joined
 633 2013-04-16 05:27:49 <saivann> jgarzik : Noted
 634 2013-04-16 05:28:00 <MC1984> i didnt like it at first but it seems like a case of get somthing going early and iterate
 635 2013-04-16 05:28:35 jaequery has joined
 636 2013-04-16 05:29:43 <da2ce7> need to add 'Bitcoin' to this page: http://bitcoin.org/en/vocabulary
 637 2013-04-16 05:29:53 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: so add it?
 638 2013-04-16 05:29:59 <gmaxwell> oh thats not the wiki. dur.
 639 2013-04-16 05:30:16 <gmaxwell> sorry, final review and mailing in tax forms fried my brain more than usual.
 640 2013-04-16 05:30:50 <da2ce7> no prob, I thought you meant make a pull request anyway.
 641 2013-04-16 05:31:55 <gmaxwell> I would have if I wasn't being daft.
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 645 2013-04-16 05:34:15 <copumpkin> is it kosher to attempt to "withdraw" an unconfirmed payment by double-spending the coins that went into it with a higher fee?
 646 2013-04-16 05:34:25 <copumpkin> by withdraw, I mean that in the "cancel" sense
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 649 2013-04-16 05:35:27 <paulo_> hello
 650 2013-04-16 05:36:00 <paulo_> if I use hash-based signatures in my altcoin, I can only use a public address once, right?
 651 2013-04-16 05:36:11 twobitcoins has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 652 2013-04-16 05:36:42 <paulo_> public address = short public key
 653 2013-04-16 05:36:43 <saivann> MC1984 : Thanks, there is still room for improvements
 654 2013-04-16 05:37:25 <MC1984> youre the new webmaster right?
 655 2013-04-16 05:37:53 <saivann> MC1984 : I don't want to be _the_ webmaster, but I did the new site, yes :)
 656 2013-04-16 05:37:57 grau has joined
 657 2013-04-16 05:38:22 <MC1984> how did you get involved?
 658 2013-04-16 05:39:06 <saivann> MC1984 : I worked for two intense weeks, making the new version, published it on the Foundation forums, and improved it during a full month following a ton of feedback.
 659 2013-04-16 05:39:47 <MC1984> cool
 660 2013-04-16 05:39:50 <gmaxwell> paulo_: you could use a hash tree based signature and then you can use it a finite amount of times based on how much precomputation you want to do.
 661 2013-04-16 05:39:57 <MC1984> sounds like you accidentally volunteered for the job
 662 2013-04-16 05:40:18 <MC1984> happens a lot in bitcoin :)
 663 2013-04-16 05:40:22 <saivann> Yeah, I thought I could do something useful, and I just tried very hard to make something better. It seems that it worked.
 664 2013-04-16 05:40:34 <copumpkin> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkle_signature_scheme
 665 2013-04-16 05:40:35 <gmaxwell> paulo_: e.g. you compute 1000 lamport keys, and arrange them into a hash tree.. and each time you sign you use the next from your tree.
 666 2013-04-16 05:41:04 Apexseals has joined
 667 2013-04-16 05:41:17 <MC1984> well, well done for doing something about it
 668 2013-04-16 05:41:28 <saivann> MC1984 : Yes, the bitcoin community is very nice :)
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 674 2013-04-16 05:42:18 <paulo_> gmaxwell: ok. I was thinking of a way to compress the signatures. is it secure to XOR the unused hashes together,
 675 2013-04-16 05:42:27 <gmaxwell> you should hash them.
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 677 2013-04-16 05:42:36 <MC1984> the only reservation i have is the satoshi client is a little bit not prominent enough imo, even though i like the other real clients getting a bit of exposition too
 678 2013-04-16 05:42:37 <paulo_> such that when I hash the used private keys, I can xor all of them,
 679 2013-04-16 05:42:43 <paulo_> since XOR is commutative
 680 2013-04-16 05:43:01 <MC1984> considering none of the others would be anything without QT
 681 2013-04-16 05:43:12 jeewee has joined
 682 2013-04-16 05:43:17 <paulo_> then hash the output of the XOR, this is then hashed again, outputting the public key
 683 2013-04-16 05:43:20 <MC1984> given that it IS the network and all
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 685 2013-04-16 05:43:31 <saivann> MC1984 : I planned to do a pull request with an automatic OS detect button to download the client, or something similar to give more visibility to it. I just didn't get the time with the press center, translations and other improvements.
 686 2013-04-16 05:43:33 <gmaxwell> paulo_: within the signature itself you should arrange the values in a tree, and then you only need to branch out to the leaf for subparts that contain the signed values.
 687 2013-04-16 05:43:58 <MC1984> ah cool
 688 2013-04-16 05:44:14 <gmaxwell> paulo_: e.g. you could have it arranged so that if you sign 00000..0000 you'd have the N preimages for 0 and plus a single hash which is the root of the ones tree.
 689 2013-04-16 05:44:25 <MC1984> that should direct ppl to at least try and run bitcoin qt on systems that are capable
 690 2013-04-16 05:44:31 rbecker has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 691 2013-04-16 05:44:33 <saivann> I also thing that even with the dedicated space, it is not visible enough. People are searching for it.
 692 2013-04-16 05:44:45 <saivann> think*
 693 2013-04-16 05:45:00 <MC1984> thats my other concern
 694 2013-04-16 05:45:24 <MC1984> people need a big huge CLICK THIS TO BITCOIN button right on the homepage in 24pt
 695 2013-04-16 05:45:47 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 696 2013-04-16 05:45:51 <gmaxwell> MC1984: we really need to improve the bitcoin-qt initial user expirence regardless of what the page does.
 697 2013-04-16 05:45:58 <da2ce7> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/140/files
 698 2013-04-16 05:46:02 <MC1984> sure
 699 2013-04-16 05:46:05 <saivann> MC1984 : CLICK THIS TO __ BITCOIN?
 700 2013-04-16 05:46:09 <gmaxwell> MC1984: if bitcoin-qt feels lame to someone who doesn't care about technology then we'll have constant pressure to hide it on the site.
 701 2013-04-16 05:46:24 <MC1984> agree
 702 2013-04-16 05:46:43 <MC1984> saivann bitcoin is now verb lol
 703 2013-04-16 05:46:58 <paulo_> gmaxwell: are preimages the hashed private keys?
 704 2013-04-16 05:47:37 <saivann> MC1984 : I am generally not 100% satisfied by the home page. But I know that some other people are working on it. So I didn't touch it right now.
 705 2013-04-16 05:47:52 <gmaxwell> preimages are the private keys.  H(X) = Y,  Y is the hash, X is the preimage.
 706 2013-04-16 05:47:59 <MC1984> all in good time
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 710 2013-04-16 05:48:52 <MC1984> i found out satoshi started working on an SPV mode for his client a long time ago but it hasnt been touched in ages
 711 2013-04-16 05:48:57 <paulo_> gmaxwell: ok. but doesn't arranging them in a tree mean that I can't compress a hash like: 101010101...?
 712 2013-04-16 05:48:58 <MC1984> thats interesting
 713 2013-04-16 05:49:22 <paulo_> *compress the signature of a hash like
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 715 2013-04-16 05:49:53 <gmaxwell> paulo_: correct. All patterns are equally likely, you can pair so that patterns works but 0000 doesn't. Anyone you pick is as good as any other.
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 718 2013-04-16 05:50:10 <gmaxwell> (I just suggest the zeros and ones pairing because its easiest to implement)
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 722 2013-04-16 05:51:22 <paulo_> gmaxwell: My idea is a public key is the hash of all the pre-image hashes XOR'ed together,
 723 2013-04-16 05:52:01 <paulo_> public key = H(P) + H(P) + H(P), where + is XOR, P is the preimage
 724 2013-04-16 05:52:17 <paulo_> oh wait
 725 2013-04-16 05:52:22 <gmaxwell> yea...
 726 2013-04-16 05:52:24 <paulo_>  public key = H(H(P) + H(P) + H(P))
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 729 2013-04-16 05:53:04 <gmaxwell> uh. thats not secure, because I can totally rearrange the bits in the message to rebind the signature.
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 732 2013-04-16 05:53:52 <gmaxwell> (so you'd have to increase the size of the value you're signing... and I think the result would be that it doesn't compress, but I'd have to work through the math)
 733 2013-04-16 05:53:55 <paulo_> since xor is commutative, I can publish an XOR of all the unused hashes
 734 2013-04-16 05:54:26 <paulo_> the hash the published pre images, also XOR this.
 735 2013-04-16 05:54:39 <paulo_> hash that, then compare this to the private jey
 736 2013-04-16 05:54:41 <paulo_> 8key
 737 2013-04-16 05:54:43 <paulo_> *key
 738 2013-04-16 05:54:51 <gmaxwell> paulo_: right but you haven't just signed 1 value, you've sind all values with the same number of 1s.
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 741 2013-04-16 05:55:56 <gmaxwell> s/sind/signed/
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 747 2013-04-16 05:59:22 <paulo_> i didn't get that. let me absorb it for a while
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 753 2013-04-16 06:05:20 <paulo_> gmaxwell: ah ok. I understand now.
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 755 2013-04-16 06:05:36 <gmaxwell> e.g. say we have 2 bit messages, the secrets are ABCD. your public key is H(A)^H(B)^H(C)^H(D)=X   you sign 01 sending A,D,H(B)^H(C) reciever computes the public key of X.   I rebind your signature to 10  sending also A,D,H(B)^H(C)  effectively BADC which also has a public key of X.
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 759 2013-04-16 06:07:20 <gmaxwell> This insecurity is precisely created from the order independance that you need for your 'compression', so I don't think it's really solvable. There are homorphic hashes that can accumulate out of order, but their security is e.g. based on the discrete log problem or similar, and I assume you're trying to avoid that.
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 762 2013-04-16 06:08:25 <gmaxwell> you might be interested in using Guy Fawkes signatures, since they're more compact than normal lapport style signatures.
 763 2013-04-16 06:09:52 <gmaxwell> http://www.hackerzvoice.net/madchat/crypto/papers/fawkes.pdf
 764 2013-04-16 06:10:23 <paulo_> gmaxwell: thanks. google returns something else
 765 2013-04-16 06:11:06 <gmaxwell> (I note that bitcoin is _almost_ also a Guy Fawkes signature, when users don't reuse keys and miners are actually honest about keeping only the first spend)
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 776 2013-04-16 06:22:08 <Bitwhat> trying to figure out what is $addressa $addressb in https://blockchain.info/api/blockchain_wallet_api
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 784 2013-04-16 06:30:15 <gonffen> Bitwhat: looks like addressa is the address to send amounta to and addressb the address for amountb
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 794 2013-04-16 06:38:32 <Garr255> can someone explain this... ./bitcoind getwork
 795 2013-04-16 06:38:32 <Garr255> error: {"code":-10,"message":"Bitcoin is downloading blocks..."}
 796 2013-04-16 06:38:32 <Garr255>  ? I just made a new genesis block, and modified bitcoin as documented in http://pastebin.com/3t8v9qPW
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 811 2013-04-16 06:49:25 <MC1984>  If you really require instant transaction, it is recommended to ask for a small transaction fee and use a double-spend detection system.
 812 2013-04-16 06:49:38 <MC1984> systems such as what
 813 2013-04-16 06:49:52 <MC1984> there are no DS detection things now
 814 2013-04-16 06:49:56 <Bitwhat_> could use some help with mtgoxs api, got a thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=177359.msg1847730#msg1847730 I could throw in a bounty if need be
 815 2013-04-16 06:49:59 <MC1984> DS are not relayed
 816 2013-04-16 06:50:10 <Garr255> disregard my previous message, all. I fixed it. :D :D
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 822 2013-04-16 06:57:14 <gonffen> Bitwhat_: why are you using mtgox as a wallet?
 823 2013-04-16 06:58:24 <Bitwhat_> my site is collecting btc donations, the people Im working with want to hold USD mostly. Im trying to set up a monthly withdrawl of btc to one of thier wallets of a small percentage
 824 2013-04-16 06:59:05 <gonffen> can you explain the rationale in holding usd? why not hold btc?
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 826 2013-04-16 06:59:40 <Bitwhat_> well the last few days should be an example; but it mainly because its not my choice...
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 830 2013-04-16 07:00:45 <Bitwhat_> this is the same thing as if I was trying to do automated trading or whatever, the documentation on mtgox api is a bit lacking, cant find any good tutorials, or well documented php class's...
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 844 2013-04-16 07:10:41 <gonffen> Bitwhat_: this might help you https://bitbucket.org/nitrous/mtgox-api/overview
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 846 2013-04-16 07:11:18 <gonffen> it has unofficial api v2 documentation
 847 2013-04-16 07:11:36 <gonffen> there is a method which appears to allow you to send bitcoins but it is undocumented
 848 2013-04-16 07:13:59 <Bitwhat_> v1 can send, nitrous article was very good, but all in python and no withdrawls examples :/    this should work, im just too dumb to use it right https://github.com/daftspunk/php-mtgox-v1
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 852 2013-04-16 07:19:32 <gonffen> Bitwhat_: have you found the method you need to use?
 853 2013-04-16 07:19:49 <gonffen> ah I see you have
 854 2013-04-16 07:21:32 ColinT has joined
 855 2013-04-16 07:21:36 <gonffen> have you tried including mt_gox_api_base before private_api?
 856 2013-04-16 07:21:42 <gonffen> I don't know PHP so I'm just pull hairs here
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 858 2013-04-16 07:22:52 <Bitwhat_> just did, no go
 859 2013-04-16 07:23:14 <paulo_> gmaxwell: If bitcoin wanted to avoid the discrete log problem, how will it do it?
 860 2013-04-16 07:24:43 <gonffen> Bitwhat_: is it giving you any errors?
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 872 2013-04-16 07:34:13 <gmaxwell> paulo_: by using lamport signatures.
 873 2013-04-16 07:34:36 i2pRelay has joined
 874 2013-04-16 07:34:42 <gmaxwell> (and yes, they're big even if you do what you can to shrink them, which is why we don't use them already)
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 879 2013-04-16 07:36:04 <Luke-Jr> there, reduced the UTXO set a bit
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 881 2013-04-16 07:36:20 <Luke-Jr> including cleaning up some uneconomic outputs
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 883 2013-04-16 07:36:31 <Luke-Jr> f05d8e62d5eaee5e2284620be4a25212b615c08f29ae8b61919ca27b9f32e44f
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 885 2013-04-16 07:37:23 <gmaxwell> ::sigh:: what a waste of time having to dig up quotes.
 886 2013-04-16 07:37:44 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: no kidding, I cheated :x
 887 2013-04-16 07:38:04 <Luke-Jr> (looked it up in Bitcoin Magazine drafts I've reviewed, and googled the text I was looking for)
 888 2013-04-16 07:39:30 <gmaxwell> it was somewhat easier though I might have guessed, I found something objectiable in every search result I brought up. :-/
 889 2013-04-16 07:39:50 <Luke-Jr> heh
 890 2013-04-16 07:40:17 <paulo_> this isn't really a dev question, but how do I change the wallet & block chain directory in windows?
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 892 2013-04-16 07:41:12 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: "… or controversial if flat out incorrect."
 893 2013-04-16 07:41:16 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: missing a "not"?
 894 2013-04-16 07:41:26 <Luke-Jr> paulo_: -datadir=whatever
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 896 2013-04-16 07:42:05 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: reload, I added it.
 897 2013-04-16 07:42:26 <paulo_> Luke-Jr: thanks
 898 2013-04-16 07:42:36 El has joined
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 900 2013-04-16 07:42:43 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: felons?
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 903 2013-04-16 07:42:51 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, ver
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 905 2013-04-16 07:43:01 <phantomcircuit> was convicted of felony explosives charges
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 907 2013-04-16 07:43:07 <Luke-Jr> wtf
 908 2013-04-16 07:43:20 <phantomcircuit> http://www.justice.gov/criminal/cybercrime/press-releases/2002/verPlea.htm
 909 2013-04-16 07:43:36 <phantomcircuit> and yes that is the right roger ver
 910 2013-04-16 07:43:57 <gmaxwell> At least it wasn't an economic crime…
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 912 2013-04-16 07:44:36 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, if rogers daddy hadn't paid for a very expensive attorney he would still be in federal prison
 913 2013-04-16 07:44:42 <phantomcircuit> he didn't even serve the minimum
 914 2013-04-16 07:45:53 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: dunno, selling explosives is kinda.. :|
 915 2013-04-16 07:46:06 <phantomcircuit> he is a bad person
 916 2013-04-16 07:46:07 <gmaxwell> was it just fireworks?  (this may not matter in terms of the law, it does matter in the court of public opinion— and while I know you hate the guy for reason, I hope that you'll not let that color your argument there... :) )
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 918 2013-04-16 07:46:24 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, no it was actually explosive, which he was storing in a residential apartment building
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 920 2013-04-16 07:46:36 <phantomcircuit> and then selling on ebay and sending through the us mail
 921 2013-04-16 07:46:55 <phantomcircuit> he could have easily gotten decades
 922 2013-04-16 07:47:04 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: even if it was, the media will probably be glad to neglect that when they mention he's a felon
 923 2013-04-16 07:47:55 <phantomcircuit> people wonder why i detest the man
 924 2013-04-16 07:48:00 <phantomcircuit> it's simple
 925 2013-04-16 07:48:03 <phantomcircuit> he's a bad person
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 931 2013-04-16 07:50:35 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: I'd suggest including the name/link in your comment with an edit, since others might not know this either
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 935 2013-04-16 07:51:12 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, i've added it as an additional comment in response to the person who pushed the pull request
 936 2013-04-16 07:51:19 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, btw do you know who that actually is
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 938 2013-04-16 07:51:40 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: ?
 939 2013-04-16 07:52:04 <phantomcircuit> the people chosen to be in the press center are an odd combination of completely non controversial and well
 940 2013-04-16 07:52:07 <phantomcircuit> ridiculous
 941 2013-04-16 07:52:18 <phantomcircuit> do you know who saivann actually is?
 942 2013-04-16 07:52:37 <saivann> me
 943 2013-04-16 07:53:04 <phantomcircuit> saivann, why did you choose to include matonis & ver
 944 2013-04-16 07:53:39 <saivann> phantomcircuit : I didn't, I did let this choice to Mike Hearn (TD) and Trace Mayer. Anyway, that's the purpose of pull request. BTW thanks for your comments
 945 2013-04-16 07:54:14 <phantomcircuit> saivann, good, you'll have to forgive me
 946 2013-04-16 07:54:26 <phantomcircuit> i dont trust anything that would seem to benefit roger ver as being legitimate
 947 2013-04-16 07:54:28 <saivann> Forgive you for what?
 948 2013-04-16 07:55:01 <saivann> phantomcircuit : No that's perfect, don't censor yourself, I want clear opinions on this. Thanks
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 953 2013-04-16 07:56:29 <SomeoneWeird> yeah, i agree that ver should be removed
 954 2013-04-16 07:56:46 <SomeoneWeird> and something about matonis should be done
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 956 2013-04-16 07:57:44 <saivann> SomeoneWeird : Any other reason for your -1?
 957 2013-04-16 07:58:00 <gmaxwell> hah "removal is not enough!" ... well, I think that the existance of some radical essays doesn't kill us— I'm sure Matonis has attracted some more people to Bitcoin— not people who's politics I agree with perhaps, but I'm glad to have more people as part of our economy.
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 960 2013-04-16 07:58:40 <saivann> Absolutely. It's just not the task we are trying to delegate here.
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 962 2013-04-16 07:58:42 <SomeoneWeird> saivann, nah, that's about it. i was in a rush to go and just wanted to leave something
 963 2013-04-16 07:58:45 <SomeoneWeird> other than that it's not bad
 964 2013-04-16 07:59:00 <saivann> SomeoneWeird : Ok good
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 972 2013-04-16 08:06:23 <cyphase> what's the current thinking about zerocoin, in a sentence or two?
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 975 2013-04-16 08:06:43 <Luke-Jr> cyphase: impractical.
 976 2013-04-16 08:06:59 <cyphase> Luke-Jr, because of the size of the proofs?
 977 2013-04-16 08:07:07 <Luke-Jr> cyphase: yes
 978 2013-04-16 08:07:21 <cyphase> otherwise? (if they were small)
 979 2013-04-16 08:07:40 <gmaxwell> And the the computation time.  But, it's really exciting to see something like that which is merely way too slow, and way too big.
 980 2013-04-16 08:08:17 <Luke-Jr> I'm more happy to see someone do another rare altcoin the "right way"
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 982 2013-04-16 08:08:28 <Luke-Jr> compatible with the bitcoin network, instead of forking
 983 2013-04-16 08:08:40 <gmaxwell> Oh, it also needs a trusted party to initilize the accumulator. (so presumably that would need some kind of secure group computation to be actually trust free)
 984 2013-04-16 08:09:07 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: is that once for the whole network?
 985 2013-04-16 08:09:25 valparaiso is now known as valparaiso_the_o
 986 2013-04-16 08:09:31 <gmaxwell> I feel really bad saying anything negative about it though, because as mentioned— it is very interesting and I'm very happy to see actual _technical_ work done in connection w/ bitcoin (instead of, say, economic speculation)
 987 2013-04-16 08:09:42 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it's once for every instance of the accumulator.
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 990 2013-04-16 08:10:07 <paulo_> what's the ECC variety used?
 991 2013-04-16 08:10:08 <gmaxwell> Which is kinda another issue: the accumulator is like a index of spent transactions that grows forever and can never be pruned.
 992 2013-04-16 08:10:12 <paulo_> sec256k something
 993 2013-04-16 08:10:18 <Luke-Jr> hmm
 994 2013-04-16 08:10:19 <gmaxwell> paulo_: by bitcoin?
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 996 2013-04-16 08:10:31 <gmaxwell> paulo_: secp256k1
 997 2013-04-16 08:11:07 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: Zerocoin isn't functional without a softfork, right? or am I missing something?
 998 2013-04-16 08:11:20 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: though, you could run multiple seperate accumulator instances, and forget old ones once all their tokens are redeemed.
 999 2013-04-16 08:11:52 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: could you deterministically and securely generate new accumulators from the old ones? ie, without a trusted party?
1000 2013-04-16 08:11:59 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: correct, not just a softfork, since you can't fit the required data in without a hardfork you need at a mininmum a softfork and a parallel network to reliably distribute the extra data.
1001 2013-04-16 08:12:02 brother_valparai is now known as valparaiso
1002 2013-04-16 08:13:33 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I believe its mathmatically possible— in the sense that you can produce proofs to show that _any_ computation was performed faithfully, but I expect it would be non-trivial.
1003 2013-04-16 08:13:51 <Luke-Jr> it's already non-trivial <.<
1004 2013-04-16 08:14:03 <gmaxwell> yea, even more non-trivial.
1005 2013-04-16 08:14:11 <cyphase> non-trivialer
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1009 2013-04-16 08:16:19 <cyphase> bitcoin needs homomorphic encryption. just stick it in there somewhere
1010 2013-04-16 08:16:25 <gmaxwell> I don't know for sure if there is a way to be sure the initial initialization was secure. The best I can come up with is that you could use multiparty computation so that all of the involved parties would have to conspire against you.
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1013 2013-04-16 08:21:03 <Luke-Jr> saivann: I almost wonder if we should have a quiz for potential press contacts with a set of "right answers" :p
1014 2013-04-16 08:21:30 <gmaxwell> You're overthinking it. :)
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1016 2013-04-16 08:21:47 <saivann> Luke-Jr : That's good, please write the protocol ;-)
1017 2013-04-16 08:21:55 <Luke-Jr> "Is the goal of Bitcoin to overthrow the government?"
1018 2013-04-16 08:21:59 <gmaxwell> Next you'll want an initiation where we have atlas call them and interview them pretending to be a panel of journalists.
1019 2013-04-16 08:22:04 <Luke-Jr> lol
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1031 2013-04-16 08:30:01 <jorgamund> I'm looking at the source code to BuildMerkleTree and digging deeper and looking at the Hash() function.  It builds a hash of two adjacent transactions, and then hashes the hash, and then puts that in to the tree (vector)?  Am i understanding this correctly?
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1033 2013-04-16 08:30:27 <jorgamund> line 78 of hash.h
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1035 2013-04-16 08:30:51 <jorgamund> Never used openssl/sha.h, so trying to understand the code line by line
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1041 2013-04-16 08:32:07 <erle-> is block size limit of 256 in place right now?
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1054 2013-04-16 08:37:19 <jorgamund> it appears it is a double hash
1055 2013-04-16 08:37:47 <Luke-Jr> jorgamund: SHA256d, yes
1056 2013-04-16 08:37:55 <jorgamund> can some crypto genius explain why it's a double hash?
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1059 2013-04-16 08:38:48 <Luke-Jr> jorgamund: probably a number of good reasons. even with the double hash, miners have been able to optimize out nearly a whole one
1060 2013-04-16 08:39:23 <jorgamund> Luke:  Not sure I follow.  Can you explain to me a little more basic/down to earth, this is new to me.
1061 2013-04-16 08:39:32 <Luke-Jr> that is, we calculate the midstate of the first hash once and just do the final 12 bytes of the block header with the nonce changed; we also can skip part of the end
1062 2013-04-16 08:39:57 <Luke-Jr> if it were a single SHA256 hash, we'd have optimized out a lot more of the hashing this way
1063 2013-04-16 08:40:29 <jorgamund> wait, so, this extra work here is desirable?
1064 2013-04-16 08:40:38 <Luke-Jr> yes
1065 2013-04-16 08:40:38 <jorgamund> as just a computational requirement?
1066 2013-04-16 08:40:58 <jorgamund> ok, now back to theory land, a standard merkle tree does not truly require the double hash then?
1067 2013-04-16 08:41:13 <Luke-Jr> it makes the hash somewhat more secure as well
1068 2013-04-16 08:41:47 <jorgamund> that is, if I were designing a merkle tree for some other application other than bitcoin, i could get away with a single hash if i wanted?
1069 2013-04-16 08:42:24 <Luke-Jr> probably
1070 2013-04-16 08:42:36 <jorgamund> hehe, "probably".  Thank you.  :-)
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1073 2013-04-16 08:44:11 <saivann> I added the Bitcoin conference banner on bitcoin.org. So, let's count approximately 90 000+ more views for it per day, starting today
1074 2013-04-16 08:44:41 <Luke-Jr> saivann: you going?
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1076 2013-04-16 08:45:23 <Luke-Jr> saivann: what's the point of "unofficial" in the BTC definition?
1077 2013-04-16 08:45:52 <saivann> Luke-Jr : Isn't it accurate to say that BTC is not an official currency ISO code?
1078 2013-04-16 08:45:56 <Luke-Jr> I mean, technically we could put "unofficial" in every definition
1079 2013-04-16 08:46:04 <Luke-Jr> saivann: yes, but the definition isn't talking about ISO
1080 2013-04-16 08:46:15 <Luke-Jr> that'd be over the head of most people
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1082 2013-04-16 08:46:22 <saivann> I know, but when comparing to USD, I felt this was necessary
1083 2013-04-16 08:46:32 <saivann> Really?
1084 2013-04-16 08:46:46 <Luke-Jr> I don't think most people know what standards are.
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1087 2013-04-16 08:47:14 <Luke-Jr> how about this: "BTC is the common unit of Bitcoin currency. It can be used similar to USD for US dollar instead of B⃦ or $. (Note that BTC is not an official ISO currency code)"
1088 2013-04-16 08:47:35 <saivann> Luke-Jr, yes, that's perfect
1089 2013-04-16 08:47:38 copumpkin has joined
1090 2013-04-16 08:47:59 <saivann> Thought if you really think it's useless, we can also just remove it.
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1092 2013-04-16 08:48:30 <Luke-Jr> I don't think the average person would have any idea what it's talking about with regard to ISO currency codes.
1093 2013-04-16 08:48:44 ligar has joined
1094 2013-04-16 08:48:49 <saivann> Ok, let's just keep "common", that's enough I guess
1095 2013-04-16 08:49:41 <Luke-Jr> if the price weren't falling so much these days, I'd suggest we might want to add mBTC to the list as well, but let's wait and see :p
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1097 2013-04-16 08:51:31 <saivann> Indeed :D
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1106 2013-04-16 09:01:54 <freem3> hi, someone can tell me where can I find the old CPU mining code of qt client ? I already serch github older source without luck
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1110 2013-04-16 09:05:23 <n1c> The current client will cpu mine won't it?
1111 2013-04-16 09:06:22 <gmaxwell> n1c: sure it will
1112 2013-04-16 09:07:02 <gmaxwell> The gui switch was removed, but it's still there. set gen=1 in bitcoin.conf or -gui=1 on the commandline.
1113 2013-04-16 09:07:16 <n1c> Yeah, freem3 the code should still be there then.
1114 2013-04-16 09:07:18 <Luke-Jr> err
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1116 2013-04-16 09:07:20 <Luke-Jr> -gen=1 ;p
1117 2013-04-16 09:07:30 <n1c> :p
1118 2013-04-16 09:07:38 <gmaxwell> ooop!
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1126 2013-04-16 09:19:02 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: so I went to go look for actual implementations of antiforensic drive firmware and found your hak5 post.
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1131 2013-04-16 09:21:32 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: perhaps you should make it claim that the drive is insanely enormous, and then scatter the private blocks randomly (e.g. based on decrypting the location with an aes key)
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1147 2013-04-16 09:34:59 <Lolcust> !seen splatster
1148 2013-04-16 09:34:59 <gribble> splatster was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 45 weeks, 0 days, 4 hours, 52 minutes, and 50 seconds ago: <splatster> guruvan: I really just meant encrypting the whole wallet.dat along with having the keys encrypted by bitcoind.
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1152 2013-04-16 09:42:18 <paulo_> what checks are done to determine if a newly found block is alid?
1153 2013-04-16 09:42:21 <paulo_> *valid
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1229 2013-04-16 10:49:26 <sipa> Luke-Jr: how many queries does your dns seed get?
1230 2013-04-16 10:49:41 <sipa> i'm at 12/s, measured over the past few hours
1231 2013-04-16 10:49:50 <kinlo> 12/s for dns seed?
1232 2013-04-16 10:50:00 <kinlo> that's a lot, given that it is only used at startup time?
1233 2013-04-16 10:50:03 <sipa> indeed
1234 2013-04-16 10:50:06 <kinlo> or am I mistaken?
1235 2013-04-16 10:50:11 <sipa> no, i agree
1236 2013-04-16 10:50:24 <sipa> probably many mobile clients that start up/shut down frequently
1237 2013-04-16 10:50:31 <kinlo> does it query when there is already a peers.dat file with enough data in it?
1238 2013-04-16 10:50:36 <sipa> yes
1239 2013-04-16 10:50:42 <kinlo> mmmz
1240 2013-04-16 10:50:50 <sipa> but the reference client isn't the only user of the DNS seeds
1241 2013-04-16 10:50:58 <kinlo> ic
1242 2013-04-16 10:51:00 <kinlo> hmmmz
1243 2013-04-16 10:51:14 <kinlo> I was u nder the impression that all other clients used their own servers?
1244 2013-04-16 10:51:34 <sipa> i mean real clients, not front-ends for a server-side database :p
1245 2013-04-16 10:51:46 <kinlo> which other real clients exist?
1246 2013-04-16 10:51:55 <kinlo> except bitcoinj, aren't all other clients thin clients?
1247 2013-04-16 10:52:00 <sipa> multibit, bitcoin wallet for android
1248 2013-04-16 10:52:03 <Scrat> what impact would it have if someone were to dos the 4 seeds?
1249 2013-04-16 10:52:04 <sipa> i suppose bitsofproof
1250 2013-04-16 10:52:20 <sipa> Scrat: connecting would become more difficult, but there are fallbacks
1251 2013-04-16 10:52:21 <TD> almost all that traffic is likely to be the android app
1252 2013-04-16 10:52:39 <sipa> iirc, when i started that seed, it served like 0.1 QPS
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1254 2013-04-16 10:52:40 <kinlo> sipa: does the android app store the entire blockchain on a mobile device???
1255 2013-04-16 10:52:42 <TD> it queries all dns seeds simultaneously every time it brings up the p2p network
1256 2013-04-16 10:52:48 <sipa> kinlo: no, it's SPV
1257 2013-04-16 10:52:53 <TD> it stores some of the headers
1258 2013-04-16 10:53:07 <kinlo> hmmmz
1259 2013-04-16 10:54:04 <TD> at some point soon we're going to roll out the dns seed on my server for the mobile app too, and then we'll be able to see what proportion of the traffic is generated by android
1260 2013-04-16 10:54:07 <TD> (and later multibit)
1261 2013-04-16 10:54:21 <TD> im still pondering whether to submit it to bitcoin-qt
1262 2013-04-16 10:54:35 <sipa> TD: at some point, when there are more DNS seeds (and i think we should encourage people to run them), it probably suffices to just query a subset of maybe 2-3 seeds only
1263 2013-04-16 10:54:41 <TD> yeah
1264 2013-04-16 10:54:42 <TD> for sure
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1266 2013-04-16 10:55:05 <sipa> TD: running the latest code, by the way? Luke-Jr and i made some changes the past days
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1268 2013-04-16 10:56:12 <TD> i refreshed it yesterday, i think. because it did indeed lock up :)
1269 2013-04-16 10:56:27 * TD checks up on it
1270 2013-04-16 10:56:42 <TD> yep it's doing fine. of course it's not handling any traffic yet
1271 2013-04-16 10:56:46 <sipa> [13-04-16 12:34:18] 6356/991200 available (973827 tried in 4115s, 1389 new, 15984 active), 60 banned; 566924 DNS requests, 25253 db queries
1272 2013-04-16 10:57:10 Bohren has joined
1273 2013-04-16 10:57:21 <sipa> (after running for ~12 hours)
1274 2013-04-16 10:57:47 <TD> cool. it's good software
1275 2013-04-16 10:57:58 <sipa> QPS numbers would be nicer than increasing counts, though
1276 2013-04-16 10:58:12 <TD> at 12qps then yes, it would :)
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1282 2013-04-16 11:03:25 <Scrat> Re: encouraging more peope to run seeds, is it a part of the network that requires some sort of trust?
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1284 2013-04-16 11:05:42 <Scrat> going by some of the CVE's, their effect would be magnified if the attacker was controlling a seed
1285 2013-04-16 11:06:11 <median^> sipa: what is SPV ?
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1287 2013-04-16 11:06:39 <sipa> median^: simplified payment verification
1288 2013-04-16 11:06:47 <sipa> median^: it's described in satoshi's paper
1289 2013-04-16 11:06:56 <sipa> median^: basically, verify block headers but not transactions in them
1290 2013-04-16 11:06:57 <median^> thx
1291 2013-04-16 11:07:03 <sipa> and assume that the longest chain is valid
1292 2013-04-16 11:07:09 <median^> does it still need the full blockchain?
1293 2013-04-16 11:07:20 <sipa> it just needs headers to validate
1294 2013-04-16 11:07:30 <sipa> but it needs to download transactions relevant to the wallet
1295 2013-04-16 11:07:37 <sipa> but since BIP 37 that's really cheap
1296 2013-04-16 11:07:50 <median^> ah ok great
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1307 2013-04-16 11:17:44 * michagogo issues addnode seed.bitcoin.sipa.be onetry
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1324 2013-04-16 11:28:32 <Konnichiwa> This blockchain stuff is a real bugger to get your head around storage wise.
1325 2013-04-16 11:28:51 <Konnichiwa> Think I've finally cracked it...
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1328 2013-04-16 11:33:59 <Konnichiwa> Why is the Satoshi client so slow at delivering blocks?
1329 2013-04-16 11:34:12 <Konnichiwa> My local client has the full block chain, connecting over localhost should be super fast?
1330 2013-04-16 11:34:49 <tcatm> Blockchain download is still not optimized.
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1332 2013-04-16 11:35:13 <Konnichiwa> Bitcoin-qt.exe is using 0 CPU O.o
1333 2013-04-16 11:35:15 <Konnichiwa> It so lazy
1334 2013-04-16 11:35:32 i2pRelay has joined
1335 2013-04-16 11:35:55 <Konnichiwa> Entire cpu usage is 2%, I'm on an SSD, does it have a SLEEP in the Satoshi client?
1336 2013-04-16 11:35:56 egis has joined
1337 2013-04-16 11:36:49 <michagogo> Konnichiwa: Just download magnet:?xt=urn:btih:6FE493BA606847EAC163BAF35AAE9DB319735482&dn=bootstrap.dat&tr=udp%3a%2f%2ftracker.openbittorrent.com%3a80&tr=udp%3a%2f%2ftracker.publicbt.com%3a80&tr=udp%3a%2f%2ftracker.ccc.de%3a80&tr=udp%3a%2f%2ftracker.istole.it%3a80 and drop it in your datadir
1338 2013-04-16 11:37:33 <Konnichiwa> I have the entire blockchain downloaded already in my Satoshi client. I'm writing a new client that I want to pull the blockchain from my client.
1339 2013-04-16 11:37:34 Davincij has joined
1340 2013-04-16 11:37:49 <Konnichiwa> from my Satoshi client*
1341 2013-04-16 11:38:00 <Konnichiwa> I'm just wondering why its taking so long....
1342 2013-04-16 11:38:06 Bitcoins has joined
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1346 2013-04-16 11:42:39 <sipa> Konnichiwa: how are you fetching it?
1347 2013-04-16 11:42:58 <Konnichiwa> getblock
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1349 2013-04-16 11:43:03 <Konnichiwa> getdata*
1350 2013-04-16 11:43:16 <Konnichiwa> getting about 10 blocks per second :(
1351 2013-04-16 11:43:19 <sipa> Konnichiwa: i can download blocks from the bitcoind on my VPS running 700km away at about 6 MB/s
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1353 2013-04-16 11:43:37 <Konnichiwa> Something wrong here then.
1354 2013-04-16 11:43:48 <Konnichiwa> its just waiting for data to receive.
1355 2013-04-16 11:45:01 <sipa> what do you do exactly?
1356 2013-04-16 11:45:38 <Konnichiwa> send getblocks, receive inv with 500 blocks, iterate through inv storing block.
1357 2013-04-16 11:46:14 <sipa> how do you issue getdata?
1358 2013-04-16 11:46:32 <sipa> when you receive an inv with 500 blocks, do you request all of them at once?
1359 2013-04-16 11:46:52 <Konnichiwa> yeah i send getdata with the inv[] i issued
1360 2013-04-16 11:48:21 <Konnichiwa> will investigate
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1362 2013-04-16 11:49:44 <sipa> you may need to do some buffering, put arriving data immediately in a local buffer (in one thread), and process the data in it in another
1363 2013-04-16 11:50:10 pete95 has joined
1364 2013-04-16 11:50:13 <Konnichiwa> Yeah I already do that :(
1365 2013-04-16 11:50:18 <Konnichiwa> Looks like my client is just being difficult.
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1367 2013-04-16 11:51:04 <Luke-Jr> TD: FWIW, my DNS seed for now is serving out only bloom-capable nodes
1368 2013-04-16 11:51:05 <mnel> Hi there, is there anyone that can assist me in understanding how to calculate a hash from get work?
1369 2013-04-16 11:51:36 i2pRelay has joined
1370 2013-04-16 11:51:49 <sipa> Luke-Jr: how many 'good' do you have, and how many crawler threads do you run?
1371 2013-04-16 11:53:57 andrew_scorpil has joined
1372 2013-04-16 11:54:22 <kinlo> mnel: to find a share of difficulty 1, you have to - on average - calculate 2^32 hashes
1373 2013-04-16 11:54:41 <kinlo> mnel: so in other words, if you do 1 share per second you have 4 gigahash
1374 2013-04-16 11:55:45 emryss has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1375 2013-04-16 11:56:06 <kinlo> mnel: does that answer your question, coz I didn't fully understand your question
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1379 2013-04-16 11:58:19 <mnel> kinlo: thanks for the response, but not quite. I am VERY new to bitcoin. As such, even more so with mining. I have searched everywhere for documentation on how exactly I am supposed to use the results of "getwork" to calculate the a hash
1380 2013-04-16 11:58:28 <kinlo> ah
1381 2013-04-16 11:58:36 <kinlo> you didn't look very well then
1382 2013-04-16 11:58:45 <kinlo> there is pseudo code on the wiki that explains it all
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1387 2013-04-16 11:59:41 <mnel> I have tried to understand that pseudo code, but to no avail.I am not farmiliar with endians whatsoever
1388 2013-04-16 11:59:53 Odyessus has joined
1389 2013-04-16 11:59:53 <kinlo> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Getwork
1390 2013-04-16 12:00:21 <HaltingState> how does bitcoin prevent transactions from being replayed?
1391 2013-04-16 12:00:24 <mnel> found that already - calculate: hash = SHA256(SHA256(EndianFlipForEach32Bits(First80BytesOf(data))))
1392 2013-04-16 12:00:27 <kinlo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness
1393 2013-04-16 12:00:34 <kinlo> that should explain endianness
1394 2013-04-16 12:03:50 <mnel> So given: 000000020597ba1f0cd423b2a3abb0259a54ee5f783077a4ad45fb6200000218 - would the first 32bits be 0000 and the second 0002 ?
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1406 2013-04-16 12:12:44 <Konnichiwa> sipa: Receive buffer on my socket was too small. Flying now.
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1412 2013-04-16 12:15:09 <Luke-Jr> sipa:
1413 2013-04-16 12:15:10 <Luke-Jr> Starting 96 crawler threads...done
1414 2013-04-16 12:15:12 <Luke-Jr> [13-04-16 11:52:48] 1729/971636 available (961000 tried in 23723s, 9100 new, 1536 active), 5261 banned; 6529337 DNS requests, 76652 db queries
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1422 2013-04-16 12:19:06 <thermoman> sipa: regarding http://bitcoin.org/may15.html - am i right that "set_lg_dir database" is not really necessary? (because logfiles are generated in database/ by default)?
1423 2013-04-16 12:19:49 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1424 2013-04-16 12:22:01 <thermoman> i'm just curious why it is advised to add this line and whether i can safely ignore it
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1426 2013-04-16 12:22:50 <TD> Luke-Jr: cool, thanks
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1428 2013-04-16 12:23:12 <TD> Luke-Jr: there are enough nodes now that i think clients are always able to find one that is 0.8+ but it still helps to filter them out at the seed level
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1430 2013-04-16 12:23:47 <Luke-Jr> TD: yeah, I think 0.8.x has a large enough majority that only seeding them should be pretty safe
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1432 2013-04-16 12:24:18 <Luke-Jr> thermoman: it shouldn't be necessary, and potentially harmful (but probably not)
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1437 2013-04-16 12:25:16 <thermoman> Luke-Jr: as a non-native english speaker i have difficulty to understand your double negation :)
1438 2013-04-16 12:25:26 <thermoman> Luke-Jr: you mean i can ignore this line, right?
1439 2013-04-16 12:25:33 <TD> yes
1440 2013-04-16 12:25:35 <Luke-Jr> thermoman: yes, I'd recommend ignoring it
1441 2013-04-16 12:25:39 <thermoman> ok
1442 2013-04-16 12:25:51 <Luke-Jr> thermoman: probably better to just upgrade to the latest backport version if you can't do 0.8.1 though
1443 2013-04-16 12:26:07 <thermoman> what version would that be?
1444 2013-04-16 12:26:09 <Luke-Jr> thermoman: even the other line is somewhat low choice
1445 2013-04-16 12:26:16 <Luke-Jr> thermoman: well, what version are you running now?
1446 2013-04-16 12:26:20 <thermoman> 0.7.2
1447 2013-04-16 12:27:26 <Luke-Jr> thermoman: first choice is 0.8.1, but if that's not workable for you, 0.7.3rc2
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1451 2013-04-16 12:29:39 <thermoman> Luke-Jr: will 0.7.3 be out before may 15th?
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1453 2013-04-16 12:30:04 <Luke-Jr> thermoman: hopefully, depends on availability of willing gitian builders and how much testing the RCs get by then
1454 2013-04-16 12:30:07 iddo has joined
1455 2013-04-16 12:31:09 <Luke-Jr> first we need 3 matching gitian builds to upload the RC to sourceforge, and then the final RC needs to get sufficient downloads/testing
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1459 2013-04-16 12:32:15 <thermoman> Luke-Jr: why can't i see the 0.7.3rc2 tag or branch in git repo?
1460 2013-04-16 12:32:28 <Luke-Jr> thermoman: it's just in the stable repo on gitorious for now
1461 2013-04-16 12:32:53 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1462 2013-04-16 12:33:01 <Luke-Jr> git fetch --tags git://gitorious.org/+bitcoin-stable-developers/bitcoin/bitcoind-stable.git
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1477 2013-04-16 12:48:24 <TD> gavinandresen: saw your push to the payment requests branch, very exciting. it's going to take a while to review but nice to see so much progress
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1513 2013-04-16 13:16:28 <zvhgty> 	http://listoffreebitcoinwebsites.blogspot.com/                 http://listofreebitcoinwebsites.weebly.com/
1514 2013-04-16 13:16:29 <zvhgty> 	http://listoffreebitcoinwebsites.blogspot.com/                 http://listofreebitcoinwebsites.weebly.com/
1515 2013-04-16 13:16:29 <zvhgty> 	http://listoffreebitcoinwebsites.blogspot.com/                 http://listofreebitcoinwebsites.weebly.com/
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1540 2013-04-16 13:34:44 <paulo_> will rejected transactions eventually remove themselves when the client synchorizes with the network?
1541 2013-04-16 13:34:50 PartTimeLegend has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1542 2013-04-16 13:35:22 <thermoman> any idea what causes "Unable to decode input address"? see end of site http://blockchain.info/en/tx/d74dc20a38ad08d8a474e69b79d326394af07e2190726c67af68bc6fdcfd73a7
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1546 2013-04-16 13:36:18 <paulo_> thermoman: probably a transaction not made by the official client.
1547 2013-04-16 13:36:19 rdymac has joined
1548 2013-04-16 13:37:07 <paulo_> thermoman: transactions are actually programs, you can do a lot of things.
1549 2013-04-16 13:37:30 <gavinandresen> thermoman: set_lg_dir avoids problems if you use the command-line db tools to work with the database
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1554 2013-04-16 13:38:25 <thermoman> gavinandresen: ah i see, thanks
1555 2013-04-16 13:38:50 <deadmund> When I try to start bitcoin-qt I get this error: ************************; EXCEPTION: St9bad_alloc;  std::bad_alloc;  bitcoin in Runaway exception      What does this mean?  How can I fix it?  Where should I report the bug?
1556 2013-04-16 13:39:13 <sipa> deadmund: which version? how much RAM has your system? many connections?
1557 2013-04-16 13:39:23 normanrichards has quit (Client Quit)
1558 2013-04-16 13:40:03 <deadmund> sipa: I don't know how many connections (the client won't start).  I'm using hte lastest version 0.8.1 I have 4GB of ram and 417MB free.
1559 2013-04-16 13:40:11 JackStorm has joined
1560 2013-04-16 13:40:17 <deadmund> and I have 5GB of swap unused
1561 2013-04-16 13:40:28 <deadmund> This is the 64bit linux binary
1562 2013-04-16 13:40:36 <EricJ> can bitcoin-qt be started in debug mode or similar?
1563 2013-04-16 13:41:00 <deadmund> EricJ: bitcoin-qt -d   ?
1564 2013-04-16 13:41:16 <deadmund> How to start debug mode?
1565 2013-04-16 13:41:16 <EricJ> cool!
1566 2013-04-16 13:41:31 <sipa> deadmund: can you compile yourself?
1567 2013-04-16 13:41:33 <deadmund> wat?  What is "cool"
1568 2013-04-16 13:41:55 <deadmund> sipa: I can try to compile but I'd like to try debug mode first.  How do I run debug mode?  Using the -d flag?
1569 2013-04-16 13:42:11 aaaxn has joined
1570 2013-04-16 13:42:19 <wallet42> wow http://blockexplorer.com/block/00000000000000000ae2dba9951e28a3e6308ac7e9e8536104c503aa772c848f
1571 2013-04-16 13:42:44 <wallet42> that would be a valid block if difficulty were 100 Billion
1572 2013-04-16 13:42:51 swhitt has quit (Excess Flood)
1573 2013-04-16 13:43:06 <wallet42> that's what i call lucky :D
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1581 2013-04-16 13:46:55 <savantguy> anyone here compile ufasoft miner?
1582 2013-04-16 13:47:20 <sipa> deadmund: the client always logs debug info, in a file called debug.log in the same directory as the wallet
1583 2013-04-16 13:47:39 <sipa> wallet42: actually, it wouldn't, because the hash would be different in that case
1584 2013-04-16 13:48:13 <drizztbsd> savantguy: why?
1585 2013-04-16 13:48:56 Litecoin_Messiah is now known as Sasushi
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1589 2013-04-16 13:49:27 <wallet42> sipa, right, the target is also in block header
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1598 2013-04-16 13:56:09 <deadmund> sipa: checking now
1599 2013-04-16 13:57:04 <deadmund> sipa: error as what is dumped to the terminal with this line additionally: EnvShutdown exception: Invalid argument (22)
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1605 2013-04-16 13:59:40 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: heh, yea its not all that common...anyway, yea there are some cool things you could do (decrypt the next sector with the previously read sector, fancy things like that)
1606 2013-04-16 14:00:01 qeb has joined
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1608 2013-04-16 14:00:29 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: anyway, its on a 16gb sd card, and like 15gb of that is dedicated to random data, so the probability that you clear it if you dont know the sector is insanely large anyway
1609 2013-04-16 14:01:30 Thepok has joined
1610 2013-04-16 14:02:23 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: another fun extension: use secret sharing so you need n-of-m secret drives to boot a server, been discussing setting one up with a few people to get a secure chat server that no individual can decrypt
1611 2013-04-16 14:02:59 <BlueMatt> (and that provides things like blocking access to old chats, assuming they werent saved locally, if others vote to do so)
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1615 2013-04-16 14:07:15 <deadmund> I guess nobody knows.  Trying to compile now.
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1617 2013-04-16 14:07:44 <deadmund> I just got a compile error.  Is there a working implementation of bitcoin-qt I should be trying to use?
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1620 2013-04-16 14:09:37 <deadmund> I erased my .bitcoin folder and now bitcoin-qt is starting again.
1621 2013-04-16 14:09:51 <deadmund> Synchronizing blocks now
1622 2013-04-16 14:10:35 <sipa> deadmund: sorry, for not answering quickly
1623 2013-04-16 14:10:43 <sipa> deadmund: but i'd liked to have seen your debug.log entirely
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1625 2013-04-16 14:11:27 <deadmund> sipa: well, it's gone now! :P
1626 2013-04-16 14:11:29 <deadmund> sipa: It's ok
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1628 2013-04-16 14:11:55 <deadmund> sipa: I didn't have any bitcoins or anything so losing .bitcoin/ is not an issue. I'll let you know if the bug crops up again.
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1633 2013-04-16 14:16:12 <gavinandresen> Alert ready to go in a few minutes, message "Action required by May 15: see http://bitcoin.org/may15.html"
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1639 2013-04-16 14:18:27 <paulo_> wait what? what's going on?
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1650 2013-04-16 14:31:59 <paulo_> I'm not aware the reward was halved.
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1671 2013-04-16 14:48:32 <reCrypto> Hi guys.
1672 2013-04-16 14:49:06 <reCrypto> I just need some help. I'm asking if someone used a software in bitcoin-alarm.com. Is this flagged or a legitmate one?
1673 2013-04-16 14:49:13 deadmund has left ("Bye")
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1677 2013-04-16 14:51:17 <vees> if getgenerate is set to false on my server, can i still point a miner at it and use getwork to generate hashes?
1678 2013-04-16 14:51:49 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
1679 2013-04-16 14:52:17 ovidiusoft has joined
1680 2013-04-16 14:52:25 arekanderu has joined
1681 2013-04-16 14:53:17 <arekanderu> hello all
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1685 2013-04-16 14:55:16 <BlueMatt> hi
1686 2013-04-16 14:55:25 <arekanderu> :)
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1716 2013-04-16 15:20:00 <philihp> i have a linux vm but don't have GUI access to it. can bitcoind be used to mine bitcoins from it, or is there a more appropriate client?
1717 2013-04-16 15:20:26 i2pRelay has joined
1718 2013-04-16 15:21:03 <BlueMatt> does it have a fairly nice gpu
1719 2013-04-16 15:21:24 Michail1_ is now known as Michail1
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1726 2013-04-16 15:25:50 <HM2> if it's a Linux VM it's a safe bet that it doesn't have a virtualised GPU, and if it does, it'll be NVIDIA
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1736 2013-04-16 15:28:50 <lupine> philihp, who's the provider?
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1740 2013-04-16 15:33:29 <freefox> how does bitcoind/bitcoin-qt select which nodes to broadcast a transaction through?
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1753 2013-04-16 15:39:31 <philihp> lupine, linode. it doesn't have a GPU... i assume that means it will be slow, but how slow?
1754 2013-04-16 15:40:07 lorenzi has joined
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1756 2013-04-16 15:42:46 <gonffen> philihp: who even cares, I'd bet you'll get your node dropped if you peg it at 100% cpu
1757 2013-04-16 15:43:42 <SomeoneWeird> philihp, solo mining, thousands of years
1758 2013-04-16 15:44:03 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1759 2013-04-16 15:44:12 <philihp> ah okay. so not worth even trying to see?
1760 2013-04-16 15:44:20 <HaltingState> gmaxwell, gribble can you unban me in bitcoin; i made a join about application that steels your wallet and it banned me
1761 2013-04-16 15:44:23 <HaltingState> **made a joke
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1767 2013-04-16 15:46:16 <michagogo> HaltingState: gribble
1768 2013-04-16 15:46:20 <michagogo> HaltingState: gribble's just a bot.
1769 2013-04-16 15:46:27 <HaltingState> michagogo, who do i talk to?
1770 2013-04-16 15:46:37 <HaltingState> wizkid is bot too
1771 2013-04-16 15:46:45 <SomeoneWeird> wizkid is not a bot
1772 2013-04-16 15:46:58 <michagogo> HaltingState: You don't, you just wait for your ban to be removed at some point (if it does get removed)
1773 2013-04-16 15:47:19 <michagogo> BTW, why does wizkid057 use +b without a kick?
1774 2013-04-16 15:47:44 <SomeoneWeird> dunno, ask him?
1775 2013-04-16 15:47:48 polrpaul has joined
1776 2013-04-16 15:47:52 <michagogo> +b without a kick doesn't do anything more than +q, except for the "can't rejoin if parts or quits" thing
1777 2013-04-16 15:47:59 orblivion has joined
1778 2013-04-16 15:48:08 <michagogo> wizkid057: Why do you use +b and not +q if you aren't kicking?
1779 2013-04-16 15:48:29 <HaltingState> michagogo, what; I have been in #bitcoin for two years now and I am insta banned by a bot and you are telling me to wait until ban is removed if ever?
1780 2013-04-16 15:48:39 <michagogo> Just about.
1781 2013-04-16 15:48:44 <HaltingState> who runs bots
1782 2013-04-16 15:49:15 CaptainBlaze has joined
1783 2013-04-16 15:49:23 jsfsn has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1784 2013-04-16 15:49:34 <SomeoneWeird> who banned you, HaltingState
1785 2013-04-16 15:49:48 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1786 2013-04-16 15:49:49 <HaltingState> wizkid057
1787 2013-04-16 15:50:08 <SomeoneWeird> for?
1788 2013-04-16 15:50:11 <HaltingState> i said "download this it will steel your wallet; free download lol" and it auto detected link and banned me
1789 2013-04-16 15:50:14 jsfsn has joined
1790 2013-04-16 15:50:21 <HaltingState> some stupid bitcoin timer application
1791 2013-04-16 15:50:41 testnode9 has joined
1792 2013-04-16 15:50:43 <SomeoneWeird> actually that timer is very suss
1793 2013-04-16 15:50:50 <SomeoneWeird> url has been flagged for review
1794 2013-04-16 15:50:58 <SomeoneWeird> so I can see why he banned you
1795 2013-04-16 15:51:06 Belkaar has joined
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1798 2013-04-16 15:52:05 <HaltingState> SomeoneWeird, 100% sure it will steal your wallet
1799 2013-04-16 15:52:34 <HaltingState> who runs bot; its a modified supybot and has an unban command
1800 2013-04-16 15:52:35 i2pRelay has joined
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1802 2013-04-16 15:53:00 <SomeoneWeird> then why did you paste it?
1803 2013-04-16 15:53:08 <SomeoneWeird> you can stay banned for a little bit :)
1804 2013-04-16 15:53:33 <HaltingState> i said specifically it will steal your wallet and lol and then a bunch of idiots said "OMG i allmost clicked on that"
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1809 2013-04-16 15:54:23 <SomeoneWeird> yeah, I don't care
1810 2013-04-16 15:54:27 <SomeoneWeird> you shouldn't have pasted the link
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1817 2013-04-16 15:55:22 michagogo_ is now known as michagogo
1818 2013-04-16 15:55:29 <HaltingState> SomeoneWeird, how long do bans last for
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1825 2013-04-16 15:55:56 <HaltingState> why are they allowed to talk about it in channel but i am not
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1831 2013-04-16 15:58:58 <lupine> too slow ^^
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1834 2013-04-16 15:59:39 <gonffen> HaltingState: you can't talk because you're banned
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1836 2013-04-16 16:00:25 <HaltingState> its ban happy; i was in san francisco at tech company and talking to someone about bitcoin and they joined channel and ran command for mtgox lag and they ran 2 bot commands and were banned and did not know what happened and now I am banned and I have been here since the beginning and no one is going to fix it; thanks community!
1837 2013-04-16 16:00:28 <sipa> freefox: all of them
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1840 2013-04-16 16:01:22 <SomeoneWeird> HaltingState, people don't get banned for no reason
1841 2013-04-16 16:01:34 <HaltingState> i am a human and i was auto banned by bot
1842 2013-04-16 16:01:34 <SomeoneWeird> the ban is probably permanent, i'll remove it tomorrow if you remind me
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1847 2013-04-16 16:08:49 <helo> HaltingState: pasting sketchy links on irc has to be discouraged strongly... just don't do it
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1849 2013-04-16 16:09:12 <HaltingState> helo, I said specifically "This will steel your wallet" and people are like "OMG i almost clicked on that"
1850 2013-04-16 16:09:23 <HaltingState> because bot had spammed it in PM to everyone
1851 2013-04-16 16:09:30 <HaltingState> i warned them about it and i was banned for it
1852 2013-04-16 16:09:47 <HaltingState> so thank you
1853 2013-04-16 16:10:11 <kadoban> pretty easy to warn people without posting the exact link
1854 2013-04-16 16:10:15 <helo> you revealed the url to many more eyes than it had been revealed to via PM
1855 2013-04-16 16:10:43 <michagogo> Question... the bootstrap.dat at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145386.0 is up to block 216116, which is says is the latest checkpoint
1856 2013-04-16 16:10:56 <michagogo> But I just checked and there's another checkpoint, 225430
1857 2013-04-16 16:11:13 <michagogo> Is there a source for an up to date bootstrap.dat somewhere
1858 2013-04-16 16:11:13 <michagogo> ?
1859 2013-04-16 16:11:22 <michagogo> s/source/torrent/
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1861 2013-04-16 16:12:18 <HaltingState> helo, you are justifying that fact that i was autobanned by a bot rather than unbanning me; that tells me that bots > people in this channel. i can understand why it would ban me, because it cannot know i am not a malicious bot spamming the link; but i dont agree with your justification
1862 2013-04-16 16:12:54 <SomeoneWeird> HaltingState, stop complaining, I said i'd unban you tomorrow
1863 2013-04-16 16:13:12 <sipa> michagogo: it was the 0.8.0 checkpoints; 0.8.1 was an emergency release and had an extra checkpoint
1864 2013-04-16 16:13:16 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1865 2013-04-16 16:13:26 <helo> HaltingState: you did something that should result in getting banned. you got banned. this is what should have been done manually if the bot hadn't saved someone the trouble.
1866 2013-04-16 16:13:44 <SomeoneWeird> ^^
1867 2013-04-16 16:14:26 <michagogo> sipa: So jgarzik just didn't update the torrent since that checkpoint was added?
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1872 2013-04-16 16:15:23 <saracen> https://8decimalplaces.appspot.com/ Not entirely sure what I've built here has any practical use.
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1882 2013-04-16 16:20:07 <sipa> michagogo: indeed; maybe we update it again for 0.8.2/0.9.0
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1906 2013-04-16 16:29:37 <ladygaga_> alright, I just read satoshi's paper
1907 2013-04-16 16:29:45 <ladygaga_> question: how is this network going to scale?
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1909 2013-04-16 16:30:27 <ladygaga_> by the sounds of it, *every* node has to hear about *every* transaction
1910 2013-04-16 16:30:36 <Arnavion> It doesn't scale very well, yes
1911 2013-04-16 16:31:10 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1912 2013-04-16 16:31:11 <ladygaga_> or at least some majority fraction of the nodes
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1914 2013-04-16 16:31:20 <sipa> every full node, yes
1915 2013-04-16 16:31:23 <ladygaga_> even if every node doesn't hear it
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1917 2013-04-16 16:31:34 <Arnavion> We had this conversation before, where gmaxwell essentially suggested bitcoin could be used between larger entities like countries and transaction within those larger units would be in another currency
1918 2013-04-16 16:31:36 <gmaxwell> "some majority fraction of the nodes" < you didn't understand it if you think a majority of nodes comes anywhere into it.
1919 2013-04-16 16:32:01 <gmaxwell> Every full node eventually hears about every confirmed transaction.
1920 2013-04-16 16:32:13 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1921 2013-04-16 16:32:18 <ladygaga_> the paper saidt that this discovery was robust
1922 2013-04-16 16:32:36 <ladygaga_> I meant that they don't have to all hear about it at once.
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1924 2013-04-16 16:33:35 <ladygaga_> it sounds like if 90% of the nodes get the message, the other 10% will be able to catch up when they sync
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1927 2013-04-16 16:34:09 <gmaxwell> This is actually more scalable than it might seem at first blush— transactions are just 200 bytes of data.  It's also the case that one can use the bitcoin currency without directly using the bitcoin network for every single trivial transaction, because you can securely tie in external systems.
1928 2013-04-16 16:34:10 <helo> the scaling part is a bigger concern when ensuring all new full nodes hear about all old transactions
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1931 2013-04-16 16:35:30 <ladygaga_> hmm interesting
1932 2013-04-16 16:36:06 <ladygaga_> so without altering the design, we could replace "individuals" using the network with high-bandwidth relay nodes
1933 2013-04-16 16:36:10 <ladygaga_> or something of that sort
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1935 2013-04-16 16:36:51 <SomeoneWeird> yep
1936 2013-04-16 16:37:10 <gmaxwell> Or, not replace but mix. If you remove individuals from the picture then people would have to trust that the actual participants in the network are honest (e.g. aren't inflating the supply)
1937 2013-04-16 16:37:15 JZavala has joined
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1940 2013-04-16 16:38:01 <ladygaga_> yeah, there would be a hybrid user base
1941 2013-04-16 16:38:30 <ladygaga_> of users / replicators I mean
1942 2013-04-16 16:38:57 <TD> ladygaga_: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability
1943 2013-04-16 16:39:04 <TD> ladygaga_: there are some back-of-the-envelope calculations there
1944 2013-04-16 16:39:10 <TD> on what can be achieved with current and future technology
1945 2013-04-16 16:39:35 <TD> along with info on other forms of scaling like SPV mode
1946 2013-04-16 16:40:08 <ladygaga_> cool, thanks
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1955 2013-04-16 16:42:46 <ladygaga_> hmm interesting.
1956 2013-04-16 16:43:10 <Konnichiwa> Whats the command to dump a block hash from the BitcoinQt client?
1957 2013-04-16 16:43:15 <helo> the current design doesn't directly reward people for running high-bandwidth relay nodes, so there some think it is important to ensure that such nodes aren't necessary. there is much disagreement around this idea :)
1958 2013-04-16 16:43:39 <ladygaga_> ah
1959 2013-04-16 16:44:07 <sipa> Konnichiwa: getblockhash ?
1960 2013-04-16 16:44:12 <Konnichiwa> perfect thanks.
1961 2013-04-16 16:44:39 <Konnichiwa> Question: Why does the client dump the hash in the reverse that it is transmitted? This had me stuck for an hour yesterday :(
1962 2013-04-16 16:44:40 <ladygaga_> helo: yeah, the rewards for honesty / dishonesty are make or break parameters for a system like this
1963 2013-04-16 16:45:18 Tom_Soft has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1964 2013-04-16 16:45:21 <sipa> Konnichiwa: it's interpreted as a little-endian number
1965 2013-04-16 16:45:36 <sipa> Konnichiwa: so to print that number in human-readable form, it's turned into big endian
1966 2013-04-16 16:45:41 <sipa> (that's my guess...)
1967 2013-04-16 16:45:57 ashman has joined
1968 2013-04-16 16:46:01 <Konnichiwa> Hmm, fair enough...
1969 2013-04-16 16:46:05 <sipa> but endianness is a weird thing in bitcoin; basically you have to try both, always :p
1970 2013-04-16 16:46:57 <ladygaga_> helo: is there possibility of the government / large organizations backing bitcoin
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1973 2013-04-16 16:47:23 <Konnichiwa> Just looks really odd.
1974 2013-04-16 16:47:29 <ladygaga_> right now it seems like for a few M $$$, any rich individual could take the network down
1975 2013-04-16 16:47:30 workman has joined
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1977 2013-04-16 16:47:53 <ladygaga_> people haven't been able to take down the gnutella netowrk / tor
1978 2013-04-16 16:48:15 <ladygaga_> but the stakes for financial systems are worth much much more $$$ than bittorrent
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1983 2013-04-16 16:48:55 <grazs> take down or slow down?
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1988 2013-04-16 16:50:14 <ladygaga_> take down -
1989 2013-04-16 16:50:21 <ladygaga_> I'm talking about a 51% attack
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1991 2013-04-16 16:50:30 <helo> ladygaga_: the public would have a tough time swallowing the idea of their tax money subsidizing the bitcoin network, so i think the chance is remote
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1994 2013-04-16 16:51:15 <ladygaga_> The canadian mint is being pretty forward thinking about this though
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2006 2013-04-16 16:56:36 <helo> bitcoin's decisions are largely directed by the idea of zero trust. i think the canadian mint is acting as a trusted entity, and is also relying on trusted hardware.
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2010 2013-04-16 16:58:25 <helo> (pardon my referring to bitcoin as a single entity)
2011 2013-04-16 16:58:35 <monad> hiya
2012 2013-04-16 16:59:00 <ladygaga_> yeah, they have proprietary asic chips
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2014 2013-04-16 16:59:32 <monad> is there a way to get the bitcoind to answer questions about arbitrary addresses?   eg. ./bitcoin/src/bitcoind listunspent 1 someoneelsesaddress
2015 2013-04-16 16:59:33 <ladygaga_> ... which are probably going to get hacked in a few weeks for sure
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2018 2013-04-16 17:00:36 <mircashod> .
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2020 2013-04-16 17:01:16 <sipa> monad: no, it doesn't maintain address-based indexes
2021 2013-04-16 17:01:53 <tncoder> hey guys :)
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2024 2013-04-16 17:02:11 <ladygaga_> TD: not sure how some of the scalability calculations are being done
2025 2013-04-16 17:02:19 <TD> which ones?
2026 2013-04-16 17:02:24 <monad> sipa: wonder how hard it would be to add that...
2027 2013-04-16 17:02:36 <valparaiso> ping someoneweird (bitcointalk post with problematic content possibly trojan)
2028 2013-04-16 17:02:54 <sipa> monad: the question is rather why would you need it?
2029 2013-04-16 17:03:14 <TD> monad: the code isn't all that hard. the issue is performance. most nodes aren't going to want to build such indexes.
2030 2013-04-16 17:03:26 <sipa> monad: there are plans for watch-only wallets for example, which would allow you to follow arbitrary (collections of) addresses
2031 2013-04-16 17:03:32 <ladygaga_> TD: the network bandwidth
2032 2013-04-16 17:03:46 <ladygaga_> it is looking at the number of transactions per sec
2033 2013-04-16 17:03:49 <sipa> monad: which is a much more scalable solution that doesn't require a fully-indexes blockchain forever on your disk, being maintained all the time
2034 2013-04-16 17:03:51 <monad> I'm just interested in how many of the first block awards are unspent
2035 2013-04-16 17:04:01 <TD> ladygaga_: yes
2036 2013-04-16 17:04:06 <ladygaga_> but it seems to be ignoring the nodes
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2038 2013-04-16 17:04:19 <ladygaga_> ** # of nodes
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2042 2013-04-16 17:04:37 <TD> nodes send each other hashes first using inv packets
2043 2013-04-16 17:04:47 <TD> they only send each other the actual tx data if the other node asks for it
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2045 2013-04-16 17:05:29 <TD> but yes the network bandwidth calculation is not "for the entire system simultaneously", it's all written from the perspective of one node operator
2046 2013-04-16 17:07:08 <ladygaga_> ah okay
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2086 2013-04-16 17:30:21 <bawr> Why doesn't the standard multisig addres generator add any stack padding for that multisig bug?
2087 2013-04-16 17:30:32 <bawr> here's where the script's generated:
2088 2013-04-16 17:30:34 <bawr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script.cpp#L1938
2089 2013-04-16 17:30:59 Lotus_GTR has joined
2090 2013-04-16 17:31:04 <Lotus_GTR> Earn some BTC, it's easy (just paste url and remove spaces):  ht tp://goo.g l/Kd7yT?
2091 2013-04-16 17:31:23 <sipa> Lotus_GTR: not here
2092 2013-04-16 17:31:40 <bawr> used here:
2093 2013-04-16 17:31:43 <bawr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/rpcwallet.cpp#L760
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2097 2013-04-16 17:32:36 <bawr> is it because btcd silently ignores popping an empty stack?
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2102 2013-04-16 17:35:17 <sipa> bawr: the extra pad value needs to be in the signature, not in the pubkey
2103 2013-04-16 17:36:30 <bawr> oh, right
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2105 2013-04-16 17:36:34 <bawr> of course
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2116 2013-04-16 17:41:34 <Lotus_GTR> Earn some BTC, it's easy (just paste url and remove spaces):  ht tp://goo.g l/Kd7yT?
2117 2013-04-16 17:41:38 ashman has left ()
2118 2013-04-16 17:41:59 <sipa> Lotus_GTR: last warning, not here
2119 2013-04-16 17:42:14 <Lotus_GTR> Ok, sorry
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2188 2013-04-16 18:07:59 <BlueMatt> hmm...looks like leveldb breaks bitcoin when build with clang
2189 2013-04-16 18:08:13 * BlueMatt is too lazy to debug, but it may be an interesting result if anyone else has time
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2214 2013-04-16 18:17:21 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: my development environment is clang, works for me...
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2236 2013-04-16 18:28:23 <_dr> it's a good thing nobody uses flags like -std=c99, otherwise code would actually portable :)
2237 2013-04-16 18:28:57 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: strange, it freezes when loading the db for me...
2238 2013-04-16 18:29:02 <BlueMatt> maybe Ill debug eventually
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2272 2013-04-16 18:47:43 <marijnfs2> hello, im trying to do a version handshake with the testnetwork using golang, but i dont get anything back
2273 2013-04-16 18:47:47 <marijnfs2> does someone know how it works?
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2275 2013-04-16 18:50:52 <Luke-Jr> "I just Installed The Tonal-Bitcoin Client As I am quite Intrigued By The Concept." - is there a TBC client I'm not aware of? O.o
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2278 2013-04-16 18:51:39 <sipa> he probably means bitcoin-qt with i18n for a tonal language, like chinese
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2305 2013-04-16 19:07:40 <marijnfs2> does someone know what should be in the addr_from of the version message exactly?
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2307 2013-04-16 19:09:01 <sipa> marijnfs2: your own IP
2308 2013-04-16 19:09:09 <sipa> but it's optional
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2311 2013-04-16 19:10:19 <marijnfs2> ok, i basically open a tcp connection with a testnode, and send the version message
2312 2013-04-16 19:10:26 <marijnfs2> then it should send me a message back right?
2313 2013-04-16 19:10:31 Guest23520 is now known as ageis
2314 2013-04-16 19:11:11 <sipa> verack, yes
2315 2013-04-16 19:11:22 <marijnfs2> [250 191 181 218 118 101 114 115 105 111 110 0 0 0 0 0 85 0 0 0 184 11 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 199 165 118 230 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 255 255 152 2 31 233 71 157 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 255 255 46 127 120 220 200 201 4 59 130 82 121 46 42 252 0 1 0 0 0]
2316 2013-04-16 19:11:26 <marijnfs2> is what i send
2317 2013-04-16 19:11:37 <marijnfs2> no the version message right? then I send verack
2318 2013-04-16 19:11:51 <sipa> can you put that in hex?
2319 2013-04-16 19:12:17 Diapolis_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2320 2013-04-16 19:12:21 PhantomSpark has joined
2321 2013-04-16 19:13:00 Insu has joined
2322 2013-04-16 19:13:30 fishfish has joined
2323 2013-04-16 19:13:43 <sipa> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#version
2324 2013-04-16 19:13:49 <sipa> it has an example
2325 2013-04-16 19:14:15 fishfish has quit (Client Quit)
2326 2013-04-16 19:14:50 <marijnfs2> let me see
2327 2013-04-16 19:15:12 flatfly has joined
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2329 2013-04-16 19:16:56 etotheipi_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2330 2013-04-16 19:21:29 wumpus has joined
2331 2013-04-16 19:23:03 <BenderCoin> Anyone with experience with this-> How is this possible in rpc commands?  getbalance -> 127.71943411 | getbalance "Sweep Me Commissions" -> 332.04 | getbalance "Sweep Me Donations" -> 229190.36899618
2332 2013-04-16 19:23:48 <jouke> BenderCoin: some other account with negative amounts?
2333 2013-04-16 19:23:58 <BenderCoin> jouke -> rpc balance shows {"result":{"":-229394.68956207,"Sweep Me Commissions":332.04000000,"Sweep Me Donations":229189.11949618},"error":null,"id":"jsonrpc"}
2334 2013-04-16 19:24:27 <jouke> BenderCoin: and listaccounts?
2335 2013-04-16 19:24:34 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
2336 2013-04-16 19:24:42 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
2337 2013-04-16 19:24:50 <BenderCoin> {""=>-229394.68956207, "Sweep Me Commissions"=>332.04, "Sweep Me Donations"=>229189.11949618}
2338 2013-04-16 19:25:21 <jouke> Oh, there you go
2339 2013-04-16 19:25:27 <jouke> your ""-account is negative
2340 2013-04-16 19:25:30 shesek has joined
2341 2013-04-16 19:25:49 <sipa> BenderCoin: i assume you always used sendtoaddress?
2342 2013-04-16 19:26:03 <sipa> that always debits the "" accounts
2343 2013-04-16 19:26:15 <sipa> you need to use sendfrom if you want to debit another account
2344 2013-04-16 19:26:22 <BenderCoin> so once the "" account goes negative the account features of the bitcoin client become useless?
2345 2013-04-16 19:26:41 <sipa> no?
2346 2013-04-16 19:26:47 <sipa> it's just a virtual balance
2347 2013-04-16 19:27:27 shesek has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2348 2013-04-16 19:27:36 <BenderCoin> ok, well this-> {""=>-229394.68956207, "Sweep Me Commissions"=>332.04, "Sweep Me Donations"=>229189.11949618}  that actually has an account balance of 127 cannot be reconciled
2349 2013-04-16 19:27:54 shesek has joined
2350 2013-04-16 19:28:19 <BenderCoin> what I mean is there is no way to get 127 from this info ->  {""=>-229394.68956207, "Sweep Me Commissions"=>332.04, "Sweep Me Donations"=>229189.11949618}
2351 2013-04-16 19:29:14 Detritus has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2352 2013-04-16 19:29:36 <jouke> !# -229394.68956207 + 332.04 + 229189.11949618
2353 2013-04-16 19:29:37 <gribble> Error: "#" is not a valid command.
2354 2013-04-16 19:29:40 <BenderCoin> actually, I mean that with that listaccounts info, there is no way to know what an account balance is. since there is no info to know where the negative "" balance is referring to
2355 2013-04-16 19:29:58 <sipa> BenderCoin: if you want to know the balance of a wallet (i.e., how much you can spend), use getbalance
2356 2013-04-16 19:30:06 taha has joined
2357 2013-04-16 19:30:22 <sipa> if you want to know the balance of an account (the difference between how much it sent and how much it received), use getbalance on the account name
2358 2013-04-16 19:30:27 etotheipi_ has joined
2359 2013-04-16 19:30:42 <sipa> BenderCoin: accounts have _nothing_ to do with address, though
2360 2013-04-16 19:31:03 <jouke> They aren't wallets inside the wallet.
2361 2013-04-16 19:31:03 iwilcox has joined
2362 2013-04-16 19:31:04 <sipa> you associate an address with an account to make receives to that address automatically credit that account, but that's it
2363 2013-04-16 19:31:12 <sipa> they are not separate amounts of coins
2364 2013-04-16 19:31:17 <sipa> coins are always per-wallet
2365 2013-04-16 19:31:36 * Luke-Jr wonders how accounts interact with CodeShark's multiwallet suppot
2366 2013-04-16 19:32:13 <sipa> Luke-Jr: trivially
2367 2013-04-16 19:32:33 <Luke-Jr> sipa: right, I mean in the sense of whether accounts could span multiple wallets or not
2368 2013-04-16 19:32:42 viperhr1 has joined
2369 2013-04-16 19:33:08 <sipa> they can't
2370 2013-04-16 19:33:34 <BenderCoin> I understand they are not separate amounts of coins.  I just want to look at an account and see what its balance is. and the current balances are not showing a result of anything close to my balance, and I cannot look at the negative "" balance to use it to make an account balance
2371 2013-04-16 19:33:56 <sipa> BenderCoin: they are account balances, they are not _address_ balances
2372 2013-04-16 19:33:58 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
2373 2013-04-16 19:35:01 diki has joined
2374 2013-04-16 19:35:09 <BenderCoin> sipa jouke thanks, bbiab, need to take care of something
2375 2013-04-16 19:35:18 <diki> sipa:So how does CBigNum encode bits differently?
2376 2013-04-16 19:35:33 ProfMac has joined
2377 2013-04-16 19:36:09 <sipa> diki: use the source, luke
2378 2013-04-16 19:36:45 <diki> I do not understand how a 4 would turn into 0x0104
2379 2013-04-16 19:36:54 <sipa> look at IMPLEMENT_SERIALIZE
2380 2013-04-16 19:37:27 rbecker is now known as RBecker
2381 2013-04-16 19:37:40 Adifex has left ()
2382 2013-04-16 19:38:04 <ProfMac> I was exploring RPC calls in bitcoin-qt, things like getrawtransaction, just to see what is there.  I remember seeing an element named [fee] in one of the json replies, but I can't find it again.  I think that each output on the transaction I viewed showed the same fee, the total for the transaction.  Does anyone here know where it might be?
2383 2013-04-16 19:38:52 <sipa> ProfMac: getrawtransaction cannot show a fee, because fees are not part of the transaction
2384 2013-04-16 19:38:53 sharperguy has joined
2385 2013-04-16 19:39:07 <sipa> you need to look at the inputs to compute it, which is outside of the scope of getrawtransaction
2386 2013-04-16 19:39:09 jsfsn has joined
2387 2013-04-16 19:39:25 santoscork has joined
2388 2013-04-16 19:39:30 <sipa> gettransaction does show it, as it's handled by the wallet, which retains much more detailed information
2389 2013-04-16 19:39:59 arekanderu has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2390 2013-04-16 19:41:03 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2391 2013-04-16 19:41:28 lorenzi has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2392 2013-04-16 19:42:04 brson has joined
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2394 2013-04-16 19:42:36 <jouke> BenderCoin: you can look at the empty account
2395 2013-04-16 19:42:39 vees has joined
2396 2013-04-16 19:43:39 <jouke> BenderCoin: use 'getbalance ""'
2397 2013-04-16 19:44:08 <michagogo> Can anyone who's seeing this send this bitcoin command and tell me if you get anything other than an error? `getrawtransaction 82e67c2a6c55bafc54dc3d5d0938030ea90778c3326aab6838fc48f196fb87fd`
2398 2013-04-16 19:44:32 graingert has joined
2399 2013-04-16 19:44:32 graingert has quit (Changing host)
2400 2013-04-16 19:44:32 graingert has joined
2401 2013-04-16 19:44:53 <jouke> michagogo: transactions doesnt exist at my node
2402 2013-04-16 19:45:24 <ThomasV> etotheipi_: you posted, a long time ago, a thread on bitcointalk, about extending bitcoin with a hash tree for addresses + merged mining. can you find the url?
2403 2013-04-16 19:45:51 <graingert> I'm confused on how ZeroCoin proposes to use a zero knowledge proof. Removing ZeroCoin spendable transactions from a set until it's not longer proved would show which was the original input
2404 2013-04-16 19:45:53 <ThomasV> I did not keep a bookmark
2405 2013-04-16 19:45:54 a_meteorite has joined
2406 2013-04-16 19:46:25 <gmaxwell> graingert: the spend is computed over all available to be spent coins.
2407 2013-04-16 19:46:40 marijnfs2 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2408 2013-04-16 19:46:48 saracen has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2409 2013-04-16 19:46:49 <gmaxwell> graingert: you can't remove spendable coins without invalidating the spend you're trying to test.
2410 2013-04-16 19:46:51 LainZ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2411 2013-04-16 19:46:54 <vees> if my bitcoind server is not generating, can i still point a miner at it and have a nonzero chance of a generation with that?
2412 2013-04-16 19:46:58 <etotheipi_> ThomasV: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=88208.0
2413 2013-04-16 19:47:07 <ThomasV> thanks
2414 2013-04-16 19:47:09 <graingert> gmaxwell: ah
2415 2013-04-16 19:47:12 <graingert> of course
2416 2013-04-16 19:47:19 <michagogo> BenderCoin: If you want to get rid of the negative balance, you can use the move command to move your positive balance from "Sweep Me Donations" or "Sweep Me Commissions" to ""
2417 2013-04-16 19:47:29 BitcoinNewbi has joined
2418 2013-04-16 19:47:32 <BitcoinNewbi> can some take a look at this MTgox ticker, and tell me what wrong>?   http://pastebin.com/R2HSiz78
2419 2013-04-16 19:47:44 melvster has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2420 2013-04-16 19:48:02 <gmaxwell> graingert: it does mean that spending is at least polynomial bandwidth/computation in the number of spendable coins.
2421 2013-04-16 19:48:09 <graingert> yeah
2422 2013-04-16 19:48:22 <graingert> gmaxwell: I'm working on a solution based on your "I taint rich"
2423 2013-04-16 19:48:27 <graingert> can you look over it at some point
2424 2013-04-16 19:49:15 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2425 2013-04-16 19:49:22 <vees> graingert: was that of course to me?
2426 2013-04-16 19:49:55 <graingert> vees: ?
2427 2013-04-16 19:49:59 <graingert> who are you?
2428 2013-04-16 19:50:27 <graingert> vees: ah, I misunderstood
2429 2013-04-16 19:50:33 shurnormal has joined
2430 2013-04-16 19:50:47 <graingert> "was that of course, to me?", "was that 'of course' to me?"
2431 2013-04-16 19:50:52 <graingert> gmaxwell: http://dpaste.org/CEZsw/
2432 2013-04-16 19:50:55 <vees> no problem, my grammar was terrible
2433 2013-04-16 19:51:13 saracen has joined
2434 2013-04-16 19:51:18 <graingert> gmaxwell: ah just noticed some very bad grammer
2435 2013-04-16 19:51:58 vrs has joined
2436 2013-04-16 19:52:04 xenesis has joined
2437 2013-04-16 19:53:18 <graingert> gmaxwell: line 5 is the fix: http://dpaste.org/tNzSO/
2438 2013-04-16 19:54:51 flatfly has quit (Quit: Yo!)
2439 2013-04-16 19:54:52 <graingert> gmaxwell: I also don't believe it will be a strain on the network, as everything will be prunable and will allow people to combine vast amounts of inputs together safely
2440 2013-04-16 19:55:01 SchmalzTech has joined
2441 2013-04-16 19:55:07 <gmaxwell> graingert: yes, sure, I wrote up a whole protocol for doing this in some thread someplace or another. It's gets annoying to deal with griefers who would wedge the process by refusing to sign.
2442 2013-04-16 19:55:11 reCrypto has joined
2443 2013-04-16 19:55:21 <graingert> gmaxwell: damn
2444 2013-04-16 19:55:25 <graingert> do you have a link to that
2445 2013-04-16 19:55:37 reCrypto has quit (Client Quit)
2446 2013-04-16 19:56:03 <graingert> gmaxwell: you just work with multiple transactions at once
2447 2013-04-16 19:56:07 amantonop has quit (Quit: amantonop)
2448 2013-04-16 19:56:11 <graingert> first one to sign gets the stoof
2449 2013-04-16 19:56:28 <michagogo> Anyone know the address(es) of blockchain.info's node(s)?
2450 2013-04-16 19:57:22 <BenderCoin> ok it appears accounts are fine as long as you never sendtoaddress, and only just do sendfrom and moves. once you do a sendtoaddress all accounting goes out the window for account balances.
2451 2013-04-16 19:57:24 <gmaxwell> graingert: e.g. I join your mix thing with 100 identities. I hop in on every mix oppturnity... and I just never sign.
2452 2013-04-16 19:57:28 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2453 2013-04-16 19:57:36 <michagogo> Or, any other way I could figure out whether or not I'm connected to blockchain.info
2454 2013-04-16 19:57:36 <michagogo> ?
2455 2013-04-16 19:57:50 <graingert> gmaxwell: Tor still works
2456 2013-04-16 19:57:53 neo2 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2457 2013-04-16 19:58:24 <graingert> gmaxwell: sending your pre-signed transaction to a subset of the network would still work
2458 2013-04-16 19:58:33 ie6 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2459 2013-04-16 19:58:37 <graingert> ah wait no
2460 2013-04-16 19:58:44 <graingert> because you need to know their outputs
2461 2013-04-16 19:59:01 BitcoinNewbi has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2462 2013-04-16 19:59:21 <graingert> gmaxwell: spamming the routing node list of Tor has always been a problme
2463 2013-04-16 19:59:24 <graingert> problem*
2464 2013-04-16 19:59:32 <graingert> do you think both systems have the same solution?
2465 2013-04-16 19:59:37 <gmaxwell> tor has centeralized directory servers.
2466 2013-04-16 19:59:56 <gmaxwell> and tor can at least trust that nodes are 'expensive' because IPs are expensive.
2467 2013-04-16 20:00:05 theyboosting has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2468 2013-04-16 20:00:16 <graingert> gmaxwell: proof of work on top of hidden service addresses
2469 2013-04-16 20:00:22 <graingert> making them expensive
2470 2013-04-16 20:00:40 <vees> michagogo: if you were, wouldn't you be in this list? https://blockchain.info/connected-nodes
2471 2013-04-16 20:00:47 <graingert> with a centralized directory server
2472 2013-04-16 20:01:22 MobGod has joined
2473 2013-04-16 20:01:34 <gmaxwell> graingert: I proposed a mechenism where you could figure out who the cheater was after giving up on the transactions. So then you could refuse to let them play in future rounds.
2474 2013-04-16 20:01:34 MobGod has quit (Changing host)
2475 2013-04-16 20:01:34 MobGod has joined
2476 2013-04-16 20:01:55 <graingert> gmaxwell: cool, do you have a link?
2477 2013-04-16 20:01:58 vees has left ()
2478 2013-04-16 20:02:09 <graingert> gmaxwell: and could it be possible to get a grant from TBF
2479 2013-04-16 20:02:27 <graingert> to implement one and see how many people spam it
2480 2013-04-16 20:02:30 jevin has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2481 2013-04-16 20:03:32 <gmaxwell> graingert: I think peter todd's take on it was clearer than mine (and I can't find mine): https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=172047.0
2482 2013-04-16 20:03:55 <graingert> "hey bob, sign a TX to $A" -> (Nothing, or "TX to $A and $B")
2483 2013-04-16 20:04:23 orblivion has joined
2484 2013-04-16 20:05:05 <graingert> bollocks, April 10th
2485 2013-04-16 20:06:54 CaptainBlaze has joined
2486 2013-04-16 20:07:31 a_meteorite has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2487 2013-04-16 20:07:38 santoscork has quit (Quit: Auto logout …)
2488 2013-04-16 20:07:38 <graingert> gmaxwell: also in my proposal only two peers take part for each TX
2489 2013-04-16 20:08:19 xait9 has joined
2490 2013-04-16 20:08:23 <MC1984> did anyone ever gt a real POS solution in atual bitcoins working
2491 2013-04-16 20:08:28 <graingert> gmaxwell: which means that the network isn't DOS'd as long as you send out enough transaction requests to enough different peers
2492 2013-04-16 20:08:42 <graingert> MC1984: the proposals were suggested in April
2493 2013-04-16 20:08:47 rosster has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2494 2013-04-16 20:08:49 <graingert> MC1984: so probably not yet
2495 2013-04-16 20:08:57 <MC1984> proposals?
2496 2013-04-16 20:09:03 <graingert> POS
2497 2013-04-16 20:09:19 BenderCoin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2498 2013-04-16 20:09:19 <graingert> for such a system
2499 2013-04-16 20:09:25 <MC1984> u read something about it about a year ago
2500 2013-04-16 20:09:46 <graingert> "I taint rich"
2501 2013-04-16 20:10:40 <MC1984> there are newer proposals?
2502 2013-04-16 20:11:02 ie6 has joined
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2504 2013-04-16 20:11:11 <MC1984> i would squeal if i saw an actual POS terminal dealing in raw bitcoins irl
2505 2013-04-16 20:11:47 jdnavarro has joined
2506 2013-04-16 20:11:50 jevin has joined
2507 2013-04-16 20:12:07 <gmaxwell> graingert: your anonymity set is very small for two peers, and I could easily deanonymize people by running a bunch of fake peers so that I'm almost always the counterparty.
2508 2013-04-16 20:12:24 rosster has joined
2509 2013-04-16 20:15:23 Peacemaker420 has joined
2510 2013-04-16 20:15:29 <graingert> gmaxwell: I'm not sure that matters
2511 2013-04-16 20:15:32 <graingert> one mo
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2526 2013-04-16 20:26:49 jtimon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2528 2013-04-16 20:27:00 xenesis_ is now known as xenesis
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2532 2013-04-16 20:36:53 Davincij15 has joined
2533 2013-04-16 20:38:13 <Gnaf> something like http://app.bitlaundry.com/
2534 2013-04-16 20:40:24 rottenchris has joined
2535 2013-04-16 20:40:30 Diapolis has joined
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2539 2013-04-16 20:41:54 <muhoo> MC1984: that'd only work if it were really cheap/easy/reliable to get fiat money in and out of BTC
2540 2013-04-16 20:43:40 sebicas has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2541 2013-04-16 20:44:42 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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2557 2013-04-16 21:00:16 taha has quit (Read error: error:1408F119:SSL routines:SSL3_GET_RECORD:decryption failed or bad record mac)
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2560 2013-04-16 21:04:27 seventhchosen has joined
2561 2013-04-16 21:04:31 <seventhchosen> hey
2562 2013-04-16 21:04:44 <seventhchosen> i got a couple of question about this "bitcoin" thing
2563 2013-04-16 21:04:52 taha has joined
2564 2013-04-16 21:05:06 <sipa> if you ask them, there is a chance to get answers; otherwise, not really
2565 2013-04-16 21:05:10 <michagogo> seventhchosen: What type of questions?
2566 2013-04-16 21:05:25 <michagogo> seventhchosen: #bitcoin may be better, depending on what you're asking
2567 2013-04-16 21:05:36 willbradley has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2568 2013-04-16 21:05:46 <michagogo> But yeah, they won't get answered if they don't get asked, like sipa said
2569 2013-04-16 21:05:47 <seventhchosen> jeje 1 sec im adjusting the color scheme
2570 2013-04-16 21:06:24 willbradley has joined
2571 2013-04-16 21:06:51 seventhchosen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2572 2013-04-16 21:07:04 Davincij has joined
2573 2013-04-16 21:07:08 <sipa> "dang, alt-f4 is not a color scheme"
2574 2013-04-16 21:07:14 seventhchosen has joined
2575 2013-04-16 21:07:21 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2576 2013-04-16 21:07:22 <seventhchosen> and the sh1t crashes ¬¬
2577 2013-04-16 21:07:27 <Someguy123> anybody know how I'd change the version number in this code? https://gist.github.com/scintill/3549107
2578 2013-04-16 21:07:57 Davincij15 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2579 2013-04-16 21:08:00 <sipa> Someguy123: to what?
2580 2013-04-16 21:08:02 <seventhchosen> soo, i was wondering.... what the hell is the 8 gigabytes that this client downloads in users/roaming/bitcoin
2581 2013-04-16 21:08:04 <seventhchosen> ?
2582 2013-04-16 21:08:12 <sipa> seventhchosen: transaction history
2583 2013-04-16 21:08:37 <sipa> it's 6.8 GiB though, the rest is indexes
2584 2013-04-16 21:08:44 <sipa> 6.9, sorry
2585 2013-04-16 21:08:55 <seventhchosen> hmmm... k...
2586 2013-04-16 21:09:01 <seventhchosen> guess that makes some sense
2587 2013-04-16 21:09:01 Darin has joined
2588 2013-04-16 21:09:05 <Someguy123> sipa, well I'm wanting to adjust it to Litecoin's address number, which is 48 in vanitygen
2589 2013-04-16 21:09:18 <seventhchosen> and how in gods name could the client reach 400Mb in memory ?
2590 2013-04-16 21:09:33 GlitchNZ has joined
2591 2013-04-16 21:09:36 <sipa> Someguy123: line 29-30, 32-33
2592 2013-04-16 21:09:44 Darin has quit (Client Quit)
2593 2013-04-16 21:10:07 <sipa> seventhchosen: it's a huge database to maintain, if you want some efficiency, you need to keep some stuff in memory
2594 2013-04-16 21:10:24 <sipa> seventhchosen: if you're running the reference client, you're part of bitcoin's full node network that verifies everything
2595 2013-04-16 21:10:29 <Someguy123> sipa so I can just change the 0x00 to 0x48 ?
2596 2013-04-16 21:10:33 <sipa> seventhchosen: you don't have to do that, you can run a lightweight client
2597 2013-04-16 21:10:45 <sipa> Someguy123: if the version byte is 0x48, yes
2598 2013-04-16 21:10:59 <sipa> if it's 48, write 0x30 or 48 (0x means what follows is hex)
2599 2013-04-16 21:11:39 <Someguy123> oh, 0x30
2600 2013-04-16 21:12:10 spiderr has left ()
2601 2013-04-16 21:12:18 <sipa> Someguy123: 0x80 is the version byte for private keys, you'll probably need to change that as well
2602 2013-04-16 21:12:38 <Someguy123> sipa, thought so, 0x30 gets the right address format, but the private key is invalid
2603 2013-04-16 21:12:38 <seventhchosen> ok thx for the info.... peace out :D
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2605 2013-04-16 21:12:58 <sipa> Someguy123: i have no clue about litecoin though
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2610 2013-04-16 21:18:21 <Someguy123> sipa, seems nowhere really states it specifically, all I could find is this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=97867.msg1074560#msg1074560
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2615 2013-04-16 21:20:59 <sipa> Someguy123: 0xb0
2616 2013-04-16 21:21:10 <Someguy123> okay thanks sipa, I'll try that
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2643 2013-04-16 21:46:05 <abadr> when is a "losing" block chain discarded?
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2655 2013-04-16 22:00:51 <EasyAt> abadr: As soon as a chain is longer than the other the smaller chain is orphaned and the transactions not present in the longer chain are put back into the TX pool
2656 2013-04-16 22:01:34 <EasyAt> If i understand correctly
2657 2013-04-16 22:01:42 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2658 2013-04-16 22:01:55 <abadr> say you get 2 blocks of the same height. what if you discard the 2nd one, but other nodes discarded the 1st one?
2659 2013-04-16 22:02:22 jsfsn has quit (Quit: leaving)
2660 2013-04-16 22:02:33 <abadr> due to timing differences
2661 2013-04-16 22:03:13 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|abadr: As a miner, you will usually work on whichever you got first
2662 2013-04-16 22:03:20 <sipa> abadr: you don't discard until one chain is longer
2663 2013-04-16 22:03:27 <sipa> and yes, there will be timing differences
2664 2013-04-16 22:03:34 * abadr is confused.
2665 2013-04-16 22:03:36 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Next time a block is mined, whichever block the miner built on becomes longest
2666 2013-04-16 22:03:36 <sipa> that's exactly the reason by the blockchain exists
2667 2013-04-16 22:03:36 <EasyAt> Once you receive a longer chain you stop work on the smaller
2668 2013-04-16 22:03:43 osmosis has joined
2669 2013-04-16 22:03:50 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|and then what EasyAt said
2670 2013-04-16 22:03:54 <sipa> so some part of the network chooses one branch, and another part chooses another
2671 2013-04-16 22:03:58 <abadr> Ok, but what if 2 miners in different parts of the network find different blocks. So half the network sees one first, the other sees the other.
2672 2013-04-16 22:04:07 <sipa> abadr: happens all the time
2673 2013-04-16 22:04:15 <sipa> some nodes see one first, others see the other first
2674 2013-04-16 22:04:31 <sipa> but one will be extended before the other is
2675 2013-04-16 22:04:54 <sipa> or even if both get extended again at approximately the same time, the chance for this happen yet another time is even smaller
2676 2013-04-16 22:05:05 <EasyAt> The others will keep working on the smaller chain until they receive the larger chain from the other side of the network
2677 2013-04-16 22:05:12 <sipa> so forks of increasing length are increasingly less likely
2678 2013-04-16 22:05:14 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|abadr: It happens. Each miner (or pool) will work on whichever it wants, usually the first it sees
2679 2013-04-16 22:05:35 <sipa> the first, longest, valid chain they see
2680 2013-04-16 22:05:43 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|And when a block is found, whichever chain it was found on becomes longest
2681 2013-04-16 22:05:52 <abadr> Ok. So a block rejection is 'temporary', in that it can be reversed if a longer incompatible chain arrives from somewhere?
2682 2013-04-16 22:06:03 <sipa> sure
2683 2013-04-16 22:06:10 <sipa> it's actually a block tree
2684 2013-04-16 22:06:11 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|abadr: More or less, yes
2685 2013-04-16 22:06:12 <sipa> not a block chain
2686 2013-04-16 22:06:29 <xait9> where does the fee go
2687 2013-04-16 22:06:30 <sipa> every node just at every time considers one path through the tree as 'correct'
2688 2013-04-16 22:06:35 <sipa> but that can change over time
2689 2013-04-16 22:06:40 rcknight has joined
2690 2013-04-16 22:06:45 <xait9> to miners?
2691 2013-04-16 22:06:45 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|xait9: To the miners
2692 2013-04-16 22:06:47 <abadr> So, the rejected blocks. Does the client "remember" them? If so for how long? :/
2693 2013-04-16 22:06:53 <sipa> it just means that the older information is, the less likely it's going to change
2694 2013-04-16 22:06:59 <sipa> abadr: forever
2695 2013-04-16 22:07:18 <sipa> this isn't necessary, but they're only a small fraction of the blockchain size
2696 2013-04-16 22:07:22 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (away!~PiZZaMaN2@unaffiliated/pizzaman2k|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2697 2013-04-16 22:07:30 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|It works the way new coins do, sort of -- a TX fee is essentially an output into thin air which a miner will reassign to itself
2698 2013-04-16 22:07:37 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2699 2013-04-16 22:07:44 <abadr> What if I mine a block with some really old parent, like from a day ago? Will my pointless block get propagated?
2700 2013-04-16 22:07:56 <xait9> so a one bitcoin fee will get a transaction done right away?
2701 2013-04-16 22:08:04 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|xait9: No.
2702 2013-04-16 22:08:20 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|xait9: You always need ro wait until a block is found
2703 2013-04-16 22:08:47 <xait9> MichaliPhone: thats around 10 mins?
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2705 2013-04-16 22:09:01 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|xait9: A higher fee means that miners will have an incentive to fit your tx into their block
2706 2013-04-16 22:09:09 <EasyAt> abadr: If the block is invalid it probably won't be forwarded past your own node
2707 2013-04-16 22:09:24 <EasyAt> I believe people will "drop it like it's hot"
2708 2013-04-16 22:09:43 <abadr> EasyAt: Does being old make it invalid?
2709 2013-04-16 22:09:49 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|xait9: Many miners will include even a no-fee tx
2710 2013-04-16 22:09:53 <sipa> abadr: a block is only relayed if it's considered part of the new best chain
2711 2013-04-16 22:10:11 <sipa> so if you mine against a really old parent, it will not propagate further than your peers
2712 2013-04-16 22:10:12 <EasyAt> abadr: A block contains hash of the previous block.  Since it doesn't contain the hash of the newest block it won't be valid
2713 2013-04-16 22:10:25 <sipa> EasyAt: "valid" is an overloaded term
2714 2013-04-16 22:10:32 xenesis has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2715 2013-04-16 22:10:32 <abadr> EasyAt: I think sipa's answer is the one I'm looking for here
2716 2013-04-16 22:10:36 rcknight has quit (Client Quit)
2717 2013-04-16 22:10:36 <abadr> :)
2718 2013-04-16 22:10:36 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Basically, you need to wait until a miner that has decided to put your transaction in a block manages to mine a block
2719 2013-04-16 22:10:38 <EasyAt> EasyAt: What's preferable?
2720 2013-04-16 22:10:38 <sipa> it's perfectly valid by all network rules, just not the current best
2721 2013-04-16 22:10:43 <EasyAt> ah
2722 2013-04-16 22:10:47 <EasyAt> indeed
2723 2013-04-16 22:11:01 phungus has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2724 2013-04-16 22:11:25 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: What would happen if you had a bunch of power, and you extended that chain past the main one?
2725 2013-04-16 22:11:42 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2726 2013-04-16 22:11:44 <sipa> Micha|iPhone: then you're doing an attack on the network
2727 2013-04-16 22:11:50 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|(meaning, how would the propagation work)
2728 2013-04-16 22:12:09 <abadr> I think I get it now. Thanks yet again.
2729 2013-04-16 22:12:14 <xait9> I sent .009 with fee of .0002 to the address mt gox gave me ; whats the estimated transfer time
2730 2013-04-16 22:12:15 <sipa> if you did, a new chain would become the new best, and it would get propagated
2731 2013-04-16 22:12:18 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|I already know what would happen, the network would switch to that again
2732 2013-04-16 22:12:21 copumpkin has joined
2733 2013-04-16 22:12:24 <sipa> xait9: seconds
2734 2013-04-16 22:12:26 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|that chain*
2735 2013-04-16 22:12:43 <sipa> xait9: confirmation time however can be between minutes and hours, depending on several factors
2736 2013-04-16 22:13:05 kadoban has joined
2737 2013-04-16 22:13:08 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|I mean, technically speaking, how would the propagation work if your peers already rejected the previous block
2738 2013-04-16 22:13:24 <sipa> they didn't reject it
2739 2013-04-16 22:13:28 <sipa> they just didn't forward it
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2741 2013-04-16 22:14:00 <abadr> Right. But you're trying to propagate a block for which your peers don't have the parent(s), even though it's now the longest chain.
2742 2013-04-16 22:14:04 <abadr> How do they get the parent?
2743 2013-04-16 22:14:18 <sipa> they ask for it
2744 2013-04-16 22:14:28 <abadr> Oh you can ask for a block. Cool.
2745 2013-04-16 22:14:38 <sipa> you never just send a block
2746 2013-04-16 22:14:41 <sipa> you only announce it
2747 2013-04-16 22:14:52 <sipa> so you say "hey dude, know about block with hash X?"
2748 2013-04-16 22:14:59 <sipa> and if they do, they ignore it
2749 2013-04-16 22:15:11 <sipa> and if they don't, they reply "send me block with hash X!"
2750 2013-04-16 22:15:19 <sipa> then you send the block
2751 2013-04-16 22:15:21 <sipa> they check it
2752 2013-04-16 22:15:31 <sipa> it looks sane, but they don't have the parent
2753 2013-04-16 22:15:38 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Ah
2754 2013-04-16 22:15:44 <sipa> so they ask you for the parent, as the block has the hash of its parent in it
2755 2013-04-16 22:15:48 <abadr> yep
2756 2013-04-16 22:15:54 <sipa> and do this recursively until they have all parents
2757 2013-04-16 22:15:57 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|So the height isn't part of that?
2758 2013-04-16 22:16:01 <sipa> no
2759 2013-04-16 22:16:02 CaptainBlaze has quit (Quit: CaptainBlaze)
2760 2013-04-16 22:16:06 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|I see.
2761 2013-04-16 22:16:07 <sipa> height is purely a client-side concept
2762 2013-04-16 22:16:22 <sipa> (except since BIP34 it's encoded in the coinbase transaction)
2763 2013-04-16 22:16:35 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|So it'll always ask for a copy of any block it doesn't have
2764 2013-04-16 22:16:50 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|And then will sort it out once it had everything?
2765 2013-04-16 22:16:55 <sipa> and when they have fetched all parent blocks, they are attached as their longest chain
2766 2013-04-16 22:16:55 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|has*
2767 2013-04-16 22:17:02 <sipa> and verified completely
2768 2013-04-16 22:17:16 <EasyAt> sipa: Then what's to stop me from creating a chain with difficulty 1 and timestamps that stretch back farther than the genisis block? Or is that what the check points are for?
2769 2013-04-16 22:17:17 <sipa> and when that succeeds, and it results in a new best chain, they announce the new tip to their peers
2770 2013-04-16 22:17:27 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|I see. And then they'll announce any blocks that become part of the longest?
2771 2013-04-16 22:17:34 <sipa> Micha|iPhone: just the tip
2772 2013-04-16 22:17:35 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Got it (I think).
2773 2013-04-16 22:17:43 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Ah, makes sense
2774 2013-04-16 22:17:45 <sipa> but their peers can ask for the parents of the tip anyway
2775 2013-04-16 22:17:49 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Righr
2776 2013-04-16 22:17:55 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|right
2777 2013-04-16 22:17:55 <sipa> actually, maybe they announce all of them
2778 2013-04-16 22:18:01 <sipa> let me check
2779 2013-04-16 22:18:17 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|EasyAt: Yeah, that's what the CPs are for
2780 2013-04-16 22:18:33 nomailin1 has joined
2781 2013-04-16 22:18:53 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|EasyAt: Also, block chain length isn't actually how many blocks in the chain
2782 2013-04-16 22:18:59 <sipa> just the tip is announces
2783 2013-04-16 22:19:12 <EasyAt> Micha|iPhone: Oh right.  Difficulty
2784 2013-04-16 22:19:16 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|It's "what's the total difficulty of all blocks in this chain"
2785 2013-04-16 22:19:16 <sipa> EasyAt: there are a bunch of heuristics
2786 2013-04-16 22:19:18 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|yeah
2787 2013-04-16 22:19:44 <sipa> EasyAt: since the difficulty adjustment is limited, you can calculate based on a block's timestamp what difficulty range is possible
2788 2013-04-16 22:20:12 graingert_ has joined
2789 2013-04-16 22:20:13 <sipa> so extending from a very old block will typically be detected very easy as a futile attempt
2790 2013-04-16 22:20:20 <EasyAt> sipa: Right, I was thinking they could falsify the timestamps.  But most difficulty is what we mean by longest?
2791 2013-04-16 22:20:26 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Yes
2792 2013-04-16 22:20:53 MobGod has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2793 2013-04-16 22:21:35 <sipa> EasyAt: highest sum of difficulties, indeed
2794 2013-04-16 22:22:08 <sipa> (actually, highest number of expected hashes in the chain, but that's proportional to the sum of the difficulties)
2795 2013-04-16 22:22:10 <abadr> Has anyone measured block propagation times?
2796 2013-04-16 22:22:28 <abadr> 2 seconds? 10 seconds? 1 minute? to reach say 95% of nodes
2797 2013-04-16 22:22:50 <sipa> people have, yes
2798 2013-04-16 22:23:05 <sipa> don't know the results, but it's certainly more than 10s
2799 2013-04-16 22:23:33 <sipa> remember that at every step the block is fully validated, including signature checks, looking up all previous outputs, ... before relaying
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2804 2013-04-16 22:24:30 <abadr> I see
2805 2013-04-16 22:24:45 agricocb has joined
2806 2013-04-16 22:25:03 <abadr> Last question for the day. Why 10 minutes?
2807 2013-04-16 22:25:04 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|It would be cool if bitcoin-qt could tell you what nodes a node reports having
2808 2013-04-16 22:25:25 <sipa> abadr: because that time was chosen by The Great Satoshi
2809 2013-04-16 22:25:36 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|So, a way to traceroute if nodes along the path allow it
2810 2013-04-16 22:25:38 <abadr> yes, all hail. any insight into why?
2811 2013-04-16 22:25:50 <sipa> abadr: his gut feeling
2812 2013-04-16 22:26:03 <sipa> abadr: it has to be significantly longer than block propagation times
2813 2013-04-16 22:26:14 <sipa> so if those are close to a minute, 10m was not a bad choice
2814 2013-04-16 22:26:31 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|(would have helped before when I was trying to figure out how far that double spend thing went to get to blockchain.info)
2815 2013-04-16 22:26:35 <denisx> thats why litecoin is a bad idea?
2816 2013-04-16 22:26:43 <abadr> i see.
2817 2013-04-16 22:26:49 <abadr> thanks again.
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2820 2013-04-16 22:26:58 <sipa> denisx: litecoin is not a bad idea imho, just an uninteresting (and somewhat failed) one
2821 2013-04-16 22:27:05 <gmaxwell> e.g. 1 minute would be busted, .. 30 minutes is getting pretty long. He picked a middle value, presumably after spending some time thinking about it.
2822 2013-04-16 22:28:43 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|You want to not be constantly spamming the Internet with new blocks, but you also need to have a number of confirmations in a reasonable time
2823 2013-04-16 22:28:48 CodeShark has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2824 2013-04-16 22:28:57 <abadr> It's not obvious to me that having it be on the order of block propagation time would be bad
2825 2013-04-16 22:29:00 CodeShark has joined
2826 2013-04-16 22:29:14 <abadr> there would be a lot more forks, but maybe that's ok
2827 2013-04-16 22:29:16 [1] has joined
2828 2013-04-16 22:29:17 <root2> had a conversation with midnightmagic about the solve time once
2829 2013-04-16 22:29:18 <root2> <midnightmagic> root2: The only thing we have is that occasionally someone with enough time on their hands (amiller *cough cough*) will perform an analysis on, say, the 10-minute block solve target, and we'll discover some interesting properties that suggest satoshi was smarter than the average bear.
2830 2013-04-16 22:29:18 <sipa> abadr: the simple explanation is that it would result in more lost work
2831 2013-04-16 22:29:18 <root2> <midnightmagic> In that case, it looks like the ten-minute solve target (on average) allows a network that is approximately as big as earth + some distance into space.
2832 2013-04-16 22:29:18 <root2> <midnightmagic> (so, good for satellites + moon if I recall the discussion correctly)
2833 2013-04-16 22:29:31 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|It's not "ok"
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2837 2013-04-16 22:29:45 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Something to avoid as much as possible
2838 2013-04-16 22:30:15 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Because of what sipa said
2839 2013-04-16 22:30:19 <gmaxwell> abadr: it's helpful to reason from an extreme. In a world with finite latency the expected reorg time to convergence tends to infinity as the block time becomes very small.
2840 2013-04-16 22:30:21 <abadr> root2: I don't get that. light speed is under 1 second.
2841 2013-04-16 22:30:23 <sipa> abadr: the harder explanation is that it gives a larger advantages to an attacker, as a cooperating (group of) miners doesn't suffer from latency between its nodes, while competing miners do
2842 2013-04-16 22:30:36 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Any block that gets orphaned is wasted work
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2844 2013-04-16 22:30:48 <sipa> actually, it's not
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2846 2013-04-16 22:30:49 <abadr> Micha|iPhone: I don't mind wasted work
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2848 2013-04-16 22:30:57 <sipa> as long as everyone has the same % of wasted work
2849 2013-04-16 22:31:07 <root2> abadr: one second from where to where?
2850 2013-04-16 22:31:08 <abadr> gmaxwell: yes, but it gets finite quickly :) probably way before 10 minutes.
2851 2013-04-16 22:31:13 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|abadr: The network does, though
2852 2013-04-16 22:31:24 <sipa> but the problem is that an attacker with a large amount of hash power does not suffer as much from wasted work
2853 2013-04-16 22:31:28 i2pRelay has joined
2854 2013-04-16 22:31:29 <abadr> root2: around the earth, and into space, and back, a couple times
2855 2013-04-16 22:31:30 <gmaxwell> abadr: imagine two peers with half the hashrate... and there is 1 second latency between them but 99.99 percent of the time they find a block in <1 second.  How long until they agree on a chain? :)
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2857 2013-04-16 22:32:06 <sipa> hours, i guess
2858 2013-04-16 22:32:08 <abadr> the collusion argument makes sense
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2861 2013-04-16 22:32:27 <sipa> gmaxwell's argument is different, but in extreme cases that becomes a problem too
2862 2013-04-16 22:32:28 <gmaxwell> abadr: the distribution of the exponential function has an (infinitely) long tail. It stops converging reliably (very long reorgs) in simulation when you have latency under the mean time.
2863 2013-04-16 22:32:31 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|sipa: What actually isn't?
2864 2013-04-16 22:32:42 <abadr> gmaxwell: 10 seconds between blocks intuitively feels like it would work to me (with lots of orphaning), but i obviously haven't thought about it very much.
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2866 2013-04-16 22:32:54 <sipa> Micha|iPhone: wasted work is not a problem, as long as everyone has the same % of wasted work
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2868 2013-04-16 22:33:06 <gmaxwell> abadr: ten seconds is far below the observed propagation times.
2869 2013-04-16 22:33:07 <sipa> Micha|iPhone: which is the case when all miners compete with eachother
2870 2013-04-16 22:33:21 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Not a problem per se, but still something worth avoiding
2871 2013-04-16 22:33:42 <abadr> got it. is that from personal observation? is there something i can read somewhere?
2872 2013-04-16 22:33:42 <gmaxwell> abadr: there is a third reason that fast rates aren't great— They set the lower bound on the amount of resources a lite node must have.
2873 2013-04-16 22:33:50 <bcg> Hi guys, i understand you guys are bitcoin experts, can someone please help me with a few questions??
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2878 2013-04-16 22:34:01 <abadr> 'lite' meaning headers-only?
2879 2013-04-16 22:34:04 <gmaxwell> Yes.
2880 2013-04-16 22:34:08 <abadr> right
2881 2013-04-16 22:34:15 <sipa> bcg: unfortunately, we are not mind readers, so you'll actually have to ask the questions :P
2882 2013-04-16 22:34:20 <bcg> lol
2883 2013-04-16 22:34:20 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2884 2013-04-16 22:34:30 <sipa> bcg: which is to say: ask, don't ask to ask
2885 2013-04-16 22:34:38 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Correct me if I'm wrong, but in an ideal world every block would be fully distributed the same nanosecond to all nodes on Earth so no blocks were ever orphaned
2886 2013-04-16 22:34:40 <gmaxwell> abadr: some people have made some posts with measurements... but that was more observation. Seeing 1 minute propagation isn't too uncommon.
2887 2013-04-16 22:34:47 <bcg> i want to buy bitcoins for a relative, he wants them stored on paper not on a computer, how will this work?
2888 2013-04-16 22:34:55 <gmaxwell> Micha|iPhone: that would be a world without a speed of light… :)
2889 2013-04-16 22:34:58 volante has joined
2890 2013-04-16 22:35:01 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|bcg: Make a paper wallet, send to it
2891 2013-04-16 22:35:03 <bcg> how does the private key process work?
2892 2013-04-16 22:35:14 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Google how to make a paper wallet
2893 2013-04-16 22:35:19 <gmaxwell> (the world has a radius of more than one nanosecond!)
2894 2013-04-16 22:35:21 <sipa> bcg: use Armory or Electrum if you want to use paper wallets
2895 2013-04-16 22:35:26 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|gmaxwell: I know
2896 2013-04-16 22:35:28 <amiller> i'm pretty sure the ideal answer is to let the "market" set the time between blocks, the same way it sets the fees, but it's more complicated
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2898 2013-04-16 22:35:46 <amiller> in a sense the presence of alternates like litecoin already means that the market is picking parameters
2899 2013-04-16 22:35:52 <sipa> amiller: i'm quite convinced that is wrong :)
2900 2013-04-16 22:35:59 <amiller> oh? :p
2901 2013-04-16 22:36:02 sanders has joined
2902 2013-04-16 22:36:08 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|But I mean, if it were possible for a block to be found and then the very next hash tried by all miners to be based on that block, it would be ideal
2903 2013-04-16 22:36:12 <sipa> amiller: oh, depending on how you look at it
2904 2013-04-16 22:36:22 <bcg> but all i see is that the paper has the key and the address, so what is the process when you want to sell, where do you enter the key?
2905 2013-04-16 22:36:44 <sipa> bcg: you import it into a client
2906 2013-04-16 22:37:03 <sipa> amiller: i mean, i think a system where the mining process itself optimizes for fastest block times i the wrong approach
2907 2013-04-16 22:37:06 <bcg> buy typing it manually?
2908 2013-04-16 22:37:21 <kadoban> bcg: QR code is a nice way, but you could type it manually, sure
2909 2013-04-16 22:37:26 sheldor has joined
2910 2013-04-16 22:37:38 <bcg> does the paper wallet generate a qr code?
2911 2013-04-16 22:37:41 cervia has joined
2912 2013-04-16 22:37:44 <amiller> well the miners will go wherever the fees are being paid
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2914 2013-04-16 22:37:46 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|There are a variety of ways, depending on the client you use
2915 2013-04-16 22:37:48 <gmaxwell> amiller: the blocktimes matter for more than miners. Should miners get to 'market select out' the existance of SPV nodes?  If north america has a hashpower majority should they get to market select out asia by using a 200ms block time?
2916 2013-04-16 22:37:53 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|and the paper wallet generator
2917 2013-04-16 22:37:58 <kadoban> bcg: depends how you generate it, there are different clients
2918 2013-04-16 22:37:58 Jearil has joined
2919 2013-04-16 22:38:17 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|bcg: Whatever you use to make the paper wallet, simply use a tool that makes a qr code
2920 2013-04-16 22:38:23 <gmaxwell> amiller: if we don't know how to include all the stakeholders in a decision the decision should be constutional if it can be.
2921 2013-04-16 22:38:23 TomServo has joined
2922 2013-04-16 22:38:25 <cervia> Got something fairly important to report to the devs here. I'll be back in like 30 minutes.
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2924 2013-04-16 22:38:45 <sipa> cervia: exciting!
2925 2013-04-16 22:38:46 <bcg> what is the best paper wallet site? and will this site keep a record of the sensitive data , is this a risk?
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2927 2013-04-16 22:39:00 <sipa> bcg: yes it is
2928 2013-04-16 22:39:02 <gmaxwell> even if you make the block time 1 minute, or what have you— you'll still have long gaps without blocks... which still breaks most of the applications that care about block time at all.
2929 2013-04-16 22:39:02 Micha has quit (iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Remote host closed the connection)
2930 2013-04-16 22:39:13 <Jearil> bcg, you should be able to do it with any QR code generating app
2931 2013-04-16 22:39:19 <cyphase> sipa, he says found a way to spoof proof of work in mining pools
2932 2013-04-16 22:39:21 <bcg> how can i overcome the risk?
2933 2013-04-16 22:39:25 <cyphase> says he*
2934 2013-04-16 22:39:27 Micha has joined
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2936 2013-04-16 22:39:40 <sipa> bcg: by not using a site?
2937 2013-04-16 22:39:46 <gmaxwell> cyphase: ... that would be about the 1001th person to incorrectly believe that…
2938 2013-04-16 22:39:51 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|grr
2939 2013-04-16 22:39:57 <bcg> sipa? what is the alternative>?
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2941 2013-04-16 22:40:11 <sheldor> gmaxwell: whats the common misconception?
2942 2013-04-16 22:40:13 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|bcg: There's software that does it locally
2943 2013-04-16 22:40:16 <sipa> bcg: use Armory or Electrum, which afaik support paper wallets built in
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2947 2013-04-16 22:40:21 <diki> fuuu
2948 2013-04-16 22:40:48 <diki> after entering some data manually rather than to calculate em, I was finally able to reproduce the merkle hash of bitcoin's genesis block
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2950 2013-04-16 22:41:11 <bcg> micha, sip, which software, is electrum, or amory safe? there is no point having data on paper only if it can also be stored and possible hacked online
2951 2013-04-16 22:41:17 <sipa> diki: the merkle hash of the genesis block is just the transaction id!!!
2952 2013-04-16 22:41:24 <sipa> diki: there is _nothing_ to calculate
2953 2013-04-16 22:41:27 <bcg> micha, which software?
2954 2013-04-16 22:41:29 <diki> sipa:Yes and I was trying to get it.
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2956 2013-04-16 22:41:41 <diki> this meant figuring out how the thing was serialized
2957 2013-04-16 22:41:51 <diki> i.e which variables were concatenated, then the varint stuff
2958 2013-04-16 22:41:52 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|if you use electrum on a computer that never touches the Internet you should br safe
2959 2013-04-16 22:41:58 <sipa> oh, you're just trying to calculate the transaction id?
2960 2013-04-16 22:42:06 <sipa> that has nothing to do with merkle trees
2961 2013-04-16 22:42:07 <gmaxwell> sheldor: usually that they can submit work to multiple pools,  or alternatively that they can somehow keep solved solutions for their own personal benefit.
2962 2013-04-16 22:42:21 <diki> sipa:Till now all I was trying to do was get this 0x4a5e1e4baab89f3a32518a88c31bc87f618f76673e2cc77ab2127b7afdeda33b
2963 2013-04-16 22:42:23 <sheldor> oh i see
2964 2013-04-16 22:42:41 <sheldor> both wrong
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2966 2013-04-16 22:42:43 <sipa> diki: looks good
2967 2013-04-16 22:42:57 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Because you're hashing the block header, which already includes the transaction creating coins
2968 2013-04-16 22:43:01 <diki> sipa:That is just a copy from the wiki article, mine is still not byteswapped
2969 2013-04-16 22:43:07 <sheldor> both wrong because pools use different payout addresses which results in different hashes
2970 2013-04-16 22:43:12 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Yep
2971 2013-04-16 22:43:27 <sipa> sheldor: you don't need to convince anyone here that those assumptions are wrong :)
2972 2013-04-16 22:43:41 <sheldor> yeah
2973 2013-04-16 22:43:44 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|So at the moment you try a hash, if successful, you've already locked in the payment address
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2975 2013-04-16 22:45:17 <diki> My best diff solo mining with 277mh/s and avg time 2 years for a block has found me a block with diff 47k
2976 2013-04-16 22:45:41 <diki> this is basically the amount of time it would of took for a CPU to find a block in 2011
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3042 2013-04-16 23:47:55 <saivann> sipa : You rock, I didn't know you speak dutch
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