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  56 2013-04-18 00:52:24 <gp5st> http://p2pox.org/wiki/P6 are the problems i note here surmountable? or should I turn my attention elsewhere for a solution to the problem?
  57 2013-04-18 00:52:58 <Tritonio> is there a way to see if a transaction needed a fee after sending it with bitcoind RPC?
  58 2013-04-18 00:54:03 <sipa> Tritonio: you can check whether it has a fee
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  62 2013-04-18 00:54:54 <Tritonio> sipa, I've set my fees to zero but I've never seen my client sending a transaction without a fee.
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  64 2013-04-18 00:55:18 <Tritonio> It always ads either 0.001 or 0.0005. And I want to check if the fee is indeed needed or if I have some bug in the code...
  65 2013-04-18 00:55:19 <sipa> then you're sending very tiny or very young coins
  66 2013-04-18 00:55:38 <Tritonio> sipa, that's the case probably. But is there a way to confirm this 100%?
  67 2013-04-18 00:56:00 <Tritonio> An easy way to check the bitcoindays of the spent inputs or something.
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  70 2013-04-18 00:57:45 <sipa> the rules are not that hard: the transaction it too large (above 10 or 15 kB, afaik), OR at least one output is less than 0.01, OR the bitcoindaysdestroyed/kilobyte is less than 576, you need a fee of 0.0005 per started kB
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  80 2013-04-18 01:09:45 <Tritonio> "at least one output is less than 0.01" that's it. I didn't know this rule existed.
  81 2013-04-18 01:10:07 <Tritonio> thanks sipa. I was reading the wiki recently about this but I probably missed this rule...
  82 2013-04-18 01:10:45 <sipa> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees#Sending
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 138 2013-04-18 02:12:07 <vrs> https://bitslog.wordpress.com/2013/04/17/more-on-block-mining-history-1st-half-of-2010/ so, what happened in may 2010?
 139 2013-04-18 02:12:21 franl has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 140 2013-04-18 02:12:44 <vrs> except for the pizza
 141 2013-04-18 02:13:17 <BlueMatt> magic
 142 2013-04-18 02:13:44 <BlueWall> The scripting - is that available via json-rpc?
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 148 2013-04-18 02:15:23 <linagee> is there a common implementation for broadcasting bitcoin blocks? (read only)
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 152 2013-04-18 02:19:17 <jgarzik> linagee: bitcoind is the common implementation that broadcasts blocks on the P2P network right now, though other client implementations are slowly becoming more used.
 153 2013-04-18 02:19:43 <jgarzik> linagee: it is also possible to create custom software, that broadcasts blocks out of band, such as via satellite or twitter
 154 2013-04-18 02:20:05 <linagee> jgarzik: such as via satellite... hrm. sounds cool.
 155 2013-04-18 02:20:25 systemParanoid has joined
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 157 2013-04-18 02:20:31 <linagee> jgarzik: I'm thinking of making some way to broadcast bitcoin by ad-hoc wifi stuff
 158 2013-04-18 02:20:46 <jgarzik> linagee: the more, the merrier
 159 2013-04-18 02:20:46 <erlehmann> yo hi
 160 2013-04-18 02:20:47 <linagee> jgarzik: one way read only
 161 2013-04-18 02:20:56 <jgarzik> linagee: that's fine
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 163 2013-04-18 02:21:16 <linagee> jgarzik: maybe with some mechanism that broadcasts the block multiple times or something. you sync up to the current block and then just start listening
 164 2013-04-18 02:21:31 <erlehmann> gmaxwell, i remember you. someone showed me your taint games. say, what do you think of loperOS bitcoin-p idea?
 165 2013-04-18 02:21:36 <jgarzik> linagee: increasing the number of mechanisms to distribute blocks makes bitcoin more resilient
 166 2013-04-18 02:21:48 <linagee> jgarzik: satellite sounds cool too. but mine would be Part 15 / anyone could do it.
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 168 2013-04-18 02:22:18 <jgarzik> linagee: ideally something not directly requiring a direct-to-node Internet connection, like adhoc wifi, satellite, magazine subscription, :)
 169 2013-04-18 02:22:23 robbak has joined
 170 2013-04-18 02:22:31 <jgarzik> "Bitcoin Block Times, March 2003"
 171 2013-04-18 02:22:39 <jgarzik> er, 2013
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 173 2013-04-18 02:23:07 <erlehmann> so i once met a guy who told me about that whole embedding bernanke in the block chain. is there a lower bound for the BTC one needs to have to embed stuff into the block chain?
 174 2013-04-18 02:23:10 <HM2> bah
 175 2013-04-18 02:23:14 <HM2> IP and wifi are old hat
 176 2013-04-18 02:23:19 <linagee> jgarzik: my ad-hoc wifi mechanism could be direct to internet as a development mechanism. and any other way in practice. also, if you're in a country where they've highly blocked bitcoin, you only need to tunnel out using some complex mechanism, then rebroadcast using a commonly ad-hoc mechanism. :)
 177 2013-04-18 02:23:24 <HM2> We need to implement RFC 1149
 178 2013-04-18 02:23:54 <linagee> HM2: so what I'm talking about has already been done?
 179 2013-04-18 02:23:57 <vrs> erlehmann: sassaman ist in the blockchain somewhere
 180 2013-04-18 02:23:59 <vrs> is*
 181 2013-04-18 02:24:22 <jgarzik> HM2: heh
 182 2013-04-18 02:24:37 <erlehmann> vrs, yeah, tribute to len sassaman. let me try to remember who told me that.
 183 2013-04-18 02:24:49 <erlehmann> travis godspeed?
 184 2013-04-18 02:24:55 <jgarzik> HM2: RFC 1149 was successfully tested, did you know that?  :)
 185 2013-04-18 02:25:01 <HM2> The only problem with publishing blocks via avian carriers is there will be increase in shotgun sales
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 187 2013-04-18 02:25:16 <linagee> over carrier pidgeons? lol
 188 2013-04-18 02:25:21 <jgarzik> Yeah, imagine the miner rivalries.
 189 2013-04-18 02:25:33 <linagee> jgarzik: here's a fun thing - to transmit my transactions into the block chain - DTMF? :->
 190 2013-04-18 02:25:45 <erlehmann> vrs, found it http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=BUB3dygQ
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 193 2013-04-18 02:26:02 <linagee> jgarzik: what do you need? like 64 bytes or something right? easy to encode into some form of DTMF. pick it up with an asterisk box.
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 197 2013-04-18 02:26:21 <linagee> jgarzik: why: apocolypse proof bitcoin. all you'd need are working land lines and clear airwaves.
 198 2013-04-18 02:26:22 <erlehmann> vrs, it may have been that i met travis goodspeed at c-base and showed him libglitch.
 199 2013-04-18 02:26:50 <linagee> jgarzik: you don't do the DTMF yourself, an app on your phone does that. but the phone would not need 2G/3G/etc
 200 2013-04-18 02:27:22 <erlehmann> linagee, go play cataclysm DDA!
 201 2013-04-18 02:28:06 <linagee> erlehmann: do they have something like I'm talking about? :)
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 204 2013-04-18 02:28:53 <erlehmann> linagee, it is a roguelike with hotguns, land mines and vehicles. also, if you have high cooking skills you can refine drugs.
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 206 2013-04-18 02:29:07 <linagee> why ad-hoc read only wifi - you can hook up a high powered transmitter to it and not have tx/rx problems of infrastructure.
 207 2013-04-18 02:29:17 <erlehmann> and welders. i am playing a mechanic with the hope that she can build a tank some day.
 208 2013-04-18 02:29:56 <linagee> (you can do this high power wifi transmitting already if you have a ham license. but not sure if "broadcasting bitcoin traffic" counts as encrypted information. lol.)
 209 2013-04-18 02:30:22 <erlehmann> hams are forbidden to transmit encrypted?
 210 2013-04-18 02:30:48 <linagee> erlehmann: I believe so. I think you also have to embed your call sign in some way into the data you're sending. (like the SSID or anything easy to see.)
 211 2013-04-18 02:31:02 <linagee> erlehmann: you might just say - eh.
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 214 2013-04-18 02:31:37 <erlehmann> linagee, implying you have to have a call sign.
 215 2013-04-18 02:31:43 <erlehmann> > implying some sort of call sign registry
 216 2013-04-18 02:31:49 <linagee> erlehmann: yep. hams have call signs.
 217 2013-04-18 02:31:52 <erlehmann> > implying you do not just generate a UUID
 218 2013-04-18 02:32:03 <erlehmann> > implying there is a central authority
 219 2013-04-18 02:32:09 <erlehmann> > implying its possibly a government
 220 2013-04-18 02:32:11 <erlehmann> > implying implications
 221 2013-04-18 02:32:12 <linagee> erlehmann: implying they can find you and shut you down. lol
 222 2013-04-18 02:32:17 <erlehmann> > implying ham is useless then
 223 2013-04-18 02:32:22 <erlehmann> > implying laughter
 224 2013-04-18 02:32:39 <linagee> erlehmann: well, you can't REALLY be government proof.
 225 2013-04-18 02:33:12 <linagee> erlehmann: even if you were doing a read only transmit of the blockchain using some sort of ad-hoc wifi mechanism - they can just fly a drone over you and use their jamming radio onboard...
 226 2013-04-18 02:33:17 <erlehmann> linagee, it's not about being SAFE. it's about being safer.
 227 2013-04-18 02:33:42 <linagee> erlehmann: little you can do about a government controlled flying wireless jammer.
 228 2013-04-18 02:33:46 <erlehmann> when the police has your personal infformation without warrant, you are not safer.
 229 2013-04-18 02:34:12 <[joe_k]> btc arent encrypted anyway; and you have to ID
 230 2013-04-18 02:34:19 <[joe_k]> there are always part 15 mesh networks
 231 2013-04-18 02:34:26 <erlehmann> linagee, „government“ only matters when we talk about government special superpowers.
 232 2013-04-18 02:34:30 <[joe_k]> and the government can always forbid those too
 233 2013-04-18 02:34:39 <erlehmann> use BATMAN!
 234 2013-04-18 02:34:48 <linagee> [joe_k]: while mesh would work - I wanted to try and build something simple / purpose built.
 235 2013-04-18 02:35:05 <erlehmann> [joe_k] you mean 802.15 networks?
 236 2013-04-18 02:35:12 <linagee> erlehmann: I was just telling someone today to use BATMAN. :)
 237 2013-04-18 02:35:20 <erlehmann> linagee, install gentoo!
 238 2013-04-18 02:35:33 <[joe_k]> no i mean FCC part 15 as in "every consumer device"
 239 2013-04-18 02:35:37 <linagee> erlehmann: I didn't think people even knew about BATMAN
 240 2013-04-18 02:35:42 <[joe_k]> pretty sure wifi is under there. maybe ISM
 241 2013-04-18 02:36:03 <[joe_k]> i would be using eg. MT63 to transmit coded audio
 242 2013-04-18 02:36:06 <erlehmann> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/802.15#Task_Group_5:_mesh_networking
 243 2013-04-18 02:36:15 <linagee> [joe_k]: govt flies a bunch of wireless jammer drones and shuts down your party.
 244 2013-04-18 02:36:21 <[joe_k]> but of course straight digital coding like you cell phone uses is the way to transmit data
 245 2013-04-18 02:36:26 <linagee> [joe_k]: what is the cat/mouse/cat/mouse/cat/mouse to that? :)
 246 2013-04-18 02:36:36 <[joe_k]> thats what spread spectrum is for :)
 247 2013-04-18 02:36:38 <[joe_k]> and, wires
 248 2013-04-18 02:36:48 <linagee> [joe_k]: spread spectrum can't defeat a jammer.
 249 2013-04-18 02:37:01 <[joe_k]> nothing can defeat your front end being overloaded, no
 250 2013-04-18 02:37:10 <linagee> [joe_k]: you can hop around all you want. they just jam your entire hopping sequence space.
 251 2013-04-18 02:37:20 <[joe_k]> there's more to spread spectrum than that
 252 2013-04-18 02:37:41 <[joe_k]> the whole point is to re-correlate a signal that is obscured by noise
 253 2013-04-18 02:37:57 <[joe_k]> i have WSB channel 6 about 0.5mi from my house.
 254 2013-04-18 02:38:03 <linagee> [joe_k]: ok.......
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 256 2013-04-18 02:38:28 <linagee> [joe_k]: so what you're telling me is - the only way to really have a safely transmitted blockchain is to use a really good jam proof SS radio?
 257 2013-04-18 02:38:53 <[joe_k]> lets just say it takes a LOT of power to be 120db above a legit signal
 258 2013-04-18 02:39:02 <[joe_k]> its a lot easier to shoot things at the transmitter than jam the receiver
 259 2013-04-18 02:39:11 <linagee> [joe_k]: what if they have your hopping sequence? can't they just hop along with you and jam?
 260 2013-04-18 02:39:29 <linagee> [joe_k]: you've just turned it into a "us vs them" problem. you'd have to share the information with the public somehow though. :)
 261 2013-04-18 02:39:33 <[joe_k]> there are other ways to SS than FH
 262 2013-04-18 02:39:37 <[joe_k]> like direct sequence
 263 2013-04-18 02:40:09 <[joe_k]> or basically any modern digital coding that spreads the energy out over a bandwidth much larger than the signal bitrate
 264 2013-04-18 02:40:10 <linagee> [joe_k]: also - say you have the best SS/DS/etc radio. can't they still triangulate you and shut you down? :)
 265 2013-04-18 02:40:16 <[joe_k]> yes they can
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 270 2013-04-18 02:40:53 <[joe_k]> imagine: a big ping-pong ball on top of a tall building. every shoots a laser and telescope at it. Time-division multiplex the talkers....
 271 2013-04-18 02:41:08 <[joe_k]> unless you intercept a beam you can't tell who's illuminating the big ball
 272 2013-04-18 02:41:13 <[joe_k]> and everyone who can see it can participate
 273 2013-04-18 02:41:46 <linagee> [joe_k]: wow... so... geographically disperse spread spectrum?
 274 2013-04-18 02:41:50 <[joe_k]> (optical shared channel with time-division multiplex).... with a nice optical bandpass filter on the telescope, might work pretty good
 275 2013-04-18 02:41:56 <[joe_k]> you can also illuminate the bottom of clouds
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 277 2013-04-18 02:42:34 <HM2> they already bounce lasers off the moon
 278 2013-04-18 02:42:44 <HM2> the carriers just sitting there waiting to be milked
 279 2013-04-18 02:42:47 <linagee> is it possible to have a "signal" without somehow making it obvious where the "signal" is coming from? /me ponders...
 280 2013-04-18 02:43:09 <[joe_k]> no its not.
 281 2013-04-18 02:43:33 <[joe_k]> in fact i am pretty sure that if the fcc/nsa is "listening", they can identify the location of a transmission instantly
 282 2013-04-18 02:43:45 <[joe_k]> should be a pretty easy tdoa trick for them these days
 283 2013-04-18 02:44:12 <linagee> [joe_k]: no doubt. those drones don't just fly around jamming things. I'd bet they're also listening. hah.
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 287 2013-04-18 02:44:49 <[joe_k]> i mean just from a truck or whatever. they dont need to track you down; the software knows where you are because your signal took 0.2us more to reach the antenna on the front of the van
 288 2013-04-18 02:45:00 <[joe_k]> or a drone sure
 289 2013-04-18 02:45:22 <linagee> ah yep. RDF
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 291 2013-04-18 02:45:55 <vrs> >Can we safely assume Satoshi mined blocks 1 and 2 ? Both blocks have 32 leading zeros, very similar to the following  32K blocks!!!
 292 2013-04-18 02:46:06 <vrs> I thought someone was satirizing him at first
 293 2013-04-18 02:46:15 <[joe_k]> leading zeros are set by current difficulty
 294 2013-04-18 02:46:31 <[joe_k]> i am not sure of the algo, but maybe 32bits is the minimum diff.
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 296 2013-04-18 02:46:34 <linagee> wasn't the difficulty originally set to zero for a while?
 297 2013-04-18 02:46:43 <vrs> I'm currently reading through that sergio analysis thread
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 299 2013-04-18 02:46:47 <[joe_k]> oh
 300 2013-04-18 02:47:18 <vrs> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=7mu3n1lfdlohl21m9uacn626c7&topic=175996.msg1834237#msg1834237
 301 2013-04-18 02:47:25 <vrs> quoting from there
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 307 2013-04-18 02:55:18 <vrs> >Block 125552 has only 12 more prefix zeros than the expected (67 vs 56) so statistically it has no meaning at all.
 308 2013-04-18 02:55:21 <vrs> what?
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 329 2013-04-18 03:09:54 <Morpher> I am trying to understand the Stratum Protocol, for the old getwork(), one send "{"method":"getwork","params":[],"id":1} to http://api.bitcoin.cz:8332/.
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 331 2013-04-18 03:12:17 <Morpher> For stratum, what URL do you send it to ?
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 368 2013-04-18 03:29:17 <Morpher> I am trying to understand the Stratum Protocol, for the old getwork(), one send "{"method":"getwork","params":[],"id":1} to http://api.bitcoin.cz:8332/.
 369 2013-04-18 03:29:19 <Morpher> For stratum, what URL do you send it to ?
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 391 2013-04-18 03:41:26 <Morpher> I am trying to understand the Stratum Protocol, for the old getwork(), one send "{"method":"getwork","params":[],"id":1} to http://api.bitcoin.cz:8332/.
 392 2013-04-18 03:41:27 <Morpher> For stratum, what URL do you send it to ?
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 415 2013-04-18 04:01:58 <Luke-Jr> Morpher: stratum doesn't use HTTP, just raw TCP sockets
 416 2013-04-18 04:02:03 <Luke-Jr> Morpher: also, don't spam
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 463 2013-04-18 04:42:51 <jspilman01> Are the uint16 / uint32 following PUSHDATA_2/4 big or little endian?
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 469 2013-04-18 04:44:21 <lianj> jspilman: little
 470 2013-04-18 04:45:19 <jspilman> thanks
 471 2013-04-18 04:47:59 <jgarzik> jspilman: https://github.com/jgarzik/picocoin/blob/master/lib/script.c#L30
 472 2013-04-18 04:47:59 <jgarzik> https://github.com/jgarzik/picocoin/blob/master/lib/serialize.c#L120
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 484 2013-04-18 05:02:54 <shesek> SomeoneWeird, not cool dude
 485 2013-04-18 05:03:24 <shesek> oh well... I should be working anyway
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 498 2013-04-18 05:11:14 <mollison> is there a bitcoin development mailing list that i can join?
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 504 2013-04-18 05:17:49 <mollison> never mind, i think i found it on sourceforge
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 560 2013-04-18 06:07:52 diki has joined
 561 2013-04-18 06:08:27 <diki> Is it possible to trace where coins I've mined are currently at?
 562 2013-04-18 06:08:32 nus-- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 563 2013-04-18 06:08:47 <diki> they are in circulation for a while now
 564 2013-04-18 06:09:15 nus-- has joined
 565 2013-04-18 06:11:56 <diki> Like 2 blocks of 50 coins
 566 2013-04-18 06:12:41 nus- has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 567 2013-04-18 06:12:49 <MC1984> of course it is
 568 2013-04-18 06:12:49 Davincij15 has joined
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 570 2013-04-18 06:14:05 <diki> any software available to do it?
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 580 2013-04-18 06:18:02 <diki> for all I know, a satoshi from my blocks could be back with me
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 674 2013-04-18 08:10:34 <_dr> does the bitcoin foundation have an irc channel? do they do lobbying, etc. or only technical stuff?
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 688 2013-04-18 08:33:40 <cyphase> how difficult would it be to add another unit to the Bitcoin network/protocol besides bitcoins? not saying you'd want to, just wondering
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 693 2013-04-18 08:35:34 <wumpus> cyphase: take a look at "colored coin" proposals
 694 2013-04-18 08:35:56 <cyphase> wumpus, yea, i know about colored coins
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 696 2013-04-18 08:42:14 <sipa> if you really mean units defined by a separate blockchain, then it's likely very easy, but with significant duplication
 697 2013-04-18 08:42:52 <sipa> like just add different header bytes for different chains to the different protocol messages, and demultipliex them to the correct engine at receival
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 701 2013-04-18 08:46:38 <graingert> cyphase: not that hard, you can just add a separate distribution network
 702 2013-04-18 08:46:55 <graingert> cyphase: and a merkle root interpretation of the coinbase
 703 2013-04-18 08:47:31 <graingert> basically merged mining that is purely reliant on Bitcoin
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 712 2013-04-18 08:59:51 <graingert> lol @ BTCMLM spam
 713 2013-04-18 08:59:54 <graingert> anyone else get it
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 717 2013-04-18 09:01:36 <cyphase> i meant something more like adding a ticker symbol to outputs/inputs so the network knows which unit you're talking about
 718 2013-04-18 09:02:50 <cyphase> also, colored coins make me a bit nervous because of how relatively easy it is to lose their color; the ordering system isn't enforced by the protocol you're sending them over
 719 2013-04-18 09:03:18 <sipa> cyphase: what do you mean by unit? a new denomination of the same currency, or a different currency?
 720 2013-04-18 09:03:30 <cyphase> different currency
 721 2013-04-18 09:04:06 <sipa> then why add a ticker to inputs/outputs; it's not like you can trade accross currencies
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 723 2013-04-18 09:04:35 <cyphase> what do you mean?
 724 2013-04-18 09:05:31 <diki> sipa:I would really love to know how CBigNum(4) encodes bits differently, so I can replicate the result.
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 727 2013-04-18 09:12:05 <wumpus> cyphase: re:colored coins, that's true, although the same can be said of normal bitcoin. The protocol in no way prevents you from throwing coins away...
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 730 2013-04-18 09:12:28 <sipa> diki: you don't need to... the data in the coinbase is arbitrary anyway
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 732 2013-04-18 09:12:54 <sipa> it doesn't matter how you encode things
 733 2013-04-18 09:13:10 <diki> It's for the genesis block only
 734 2013-04-18 09:14:50 <diki> For instance this line of code pblock->vtx[0].vin[0].scriptSig = (CScript() << nHeight << CBigNum(nExtraNonce)) + COINBASE_FLAGS;
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 736 2013-04-18 09:17:53 <cyphase> wumpus, that's true, but you pretty much have to intend to do it. unless you're messing around with code yourself, you're very unlikely to create an unspendable transaction. of course, there are people who've paid large fees, if you call that 'throwing away'
 737 2013-04-18 09:18:51 <cyphase> of course if all the clients are at least aware of colored coins, that would greatly reduce the chance for errors
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 742 2013-04-18 09:26:15 <wumpus> cyphase: yeah; I suspect the clients will be adapted with the proper warnings if it catches on
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 771 2013-04-18 10:16:29 <Kaiten> Hello every one
 772 2013-04-18 10:18:48 <Kaiten> I'm trying to develop a wallet as a web service but i don't know where I sould start anyone can help me?
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 777 2013-04-18 10:21:52 <CodeShark> have you read Satoshi's paper and gone over the protocol wiki?
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 844 2013-04-18 11:25:03 <Wayward> who does bitcoin.clarkmoody.com belong to again?
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 846 2013-04-18 11:25:12 <Wayward> i think their nick began with 's'?
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 854 2013-04-18 11:27:14 <SomeoneWeird> Wayward, clark moody
 855 2013-04-18 11:27:15 <SomeoneWeird> lol
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 857 2013-04-18 11:27:36 <Wayward> can't have a space in nicknames
 858 2013-04-18 11:27:43 <Wayward> clarkm?
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 900 2013-04-18 12:06:07 <diki> there is but one thing that is missing from the qt UI
 901 2013-04-18 12:06:20 <diki> and that is RPCusername,rpcpassword and rpcport details
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 912 2013-04-18 12:19:10 <jgm> Hi, question on hex format transactions.  Specifically looking at the in-counter (number of inputs), it is listed on the wiki as being '1-9 bytes' in size.  How can I tell how many bytes to read to know the number of inputs?
 913 2013-04-18 12:20:27 <diki> they are
 914 2013-04-18 12:20:31 <diki> varints
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 916 2013-04-18 12:20:50 <diki> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Variable_length_integer
 917 2013-04-18 12:21:04 <jgm> Fantastic, thanks
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 920 2013-04-18 12:21:51 <diki> I urge you to look at the cbitcoin source code, a little hard to read at first, but later you will see how it's done in C.
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 922 2013-04-18 12:22:38 <rebroad> Is it possible for multiple people to have access to the same bitcoins in such a way that it needs more than one to send them on and that the people needed can be changed without needing to create a transaction on the blockchain?
 923 2013-04-18 12:22:51 <jgm> I'm just looking to build a simple transaction generator from the docs, but will take a look at the C code if I need to.  Just figure that IRC is a lot quicker for simple questions
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 926 2013-04-18 12:23:28 <diki> rebroad:I think that's multisig transactions
 927 2013-04-18 12:23:38 <diki> i.e only if two parties agree can a tx be spent
 928 2013-04-18 12:23:49 <diki> but I have not further read about it
 929 2013-04-18 12:23:56 <diki> so take my words with a grain of salt
 930 2013-04-18 12:24:17 <diki> jgm:I was working on a merkle hash generator.
 931 2013-04-18 12:24:19 <rebroad> diki, I think you're right, but I wondered whether it's suitable for corporations to own bitcoins and manage the people who have access to them in such a way that they can both change the people with access, and easily see who authorized any transaction involving the bitcoins
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 933 2013-04-18 12:24:31 <TD_> rebroad: it is possible using threshold ECDSA, but that is very advanced and I do not know of any implementations
 934 2013-04-18 12:24:41 <TD_> rebroad: I think it is easier to just broadcast a new tx when changing the ownership set
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 936 2013-04-18 12:25:34 <jgm> diki: cool.  I'm doing mine in Java, just because that's what the rest of the codebase is already in.  Took a look at bitcoinj but it's way more than I need
 937 2013-04-18 12:25:40 <diki> jgm:Just to give you a start, a transaction is a concatenation of fields of a transaction
 938 2013-04-18 12:25:50 <rebroad> TD_, thanks.. where can I read more about the solution that doesn't involve broadcasting a new tx? although I'm also interested in understanding the solution that does require a new tx also.... I'm looking for solutions where it may involve at least 5 people with keys, and 2 or 3 keys needed, with it being clear which keys were used to release the funds
 939 2013-04-18 12:25:57 <TD> jgm: what do you want to do, again?
 940 2013-04-18 12:26:30 <TD> rebroad: i'm not sure threshold ecdsa lets you see who moved the coins. i think the simplest solution by far is a new tx to change the owners
 941 2013-04-18 12:26:47 <jgm> TD: Building a (relatively) simple system in Java to generate transactions.  Not interested in the full wallet functionality and the rest right now
 942 2013-04-18 12:27:04 <TD> otherwise: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fciteseerx.ist.psu.edu%2Fviewdoc%2Fdownload%3Fdoi%3D10.1.1.67.9913%26rep%3Drep1%26type%3Dpdf&ei=PuFvUbKxGMfftAa7-oCwDQ&usg=AFQjCNGyRbV8Rv87yjznvoBr2Fd_Kfdj4w&sig2=3FxCKw9bIXgLfo8Ji-yjBg&bvm=bv.45368065,d.Yms
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 944 2013-04-18 12:27:14 <TD> jgm: generate them from what, then?
 945 2013-04-18 12:27:27 <TD> jgm: you could use bitcoinj and just instantiate Transaction objects directly
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 947 2013-04-18 12:27:47 <rebroad> TD - what is that pdf file?
 948 2013-04-18 12:28:02 <jgm> I'll pull the inputs from other wallet software as necessary.
 949 2013-04-18 12:28:03 <TD> it's a paper on a threshold ECDSA scheme that has the same properties as Shoup's scheme for RSA
 950 2013-04-18 12:28:39 <jgm> Not a huge fan of the bitcoinj codebase to be honest, plus I figure it'll ensure that I understand what's going on.  Always good when dealing in code that handles things of real value
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 952 2013-04-18 12:28:50 <TD> ok, fair enough
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 954 2013-04-18 12:28:59 <TD> out of curiosity, what do you dislike about the codebase?
 955 2013-04-18 12:29:12 t7 has joined
 956 2013-04-18 12:29:17 <diki> td:you can't possible be the author, can you?
 957 2013-04-18 12:29:24 <diki> *possibly
 958 2013-04-18 12:29:38 <sipa> why not?
 959 2013-04-18 12:29:43 <TD> diki ;)
 960 2013-04-18 12:29:50 <diki> so you are?
 961 2013-04-18 12:30:03 <diki> Then why is the copyright holder Google, Inc?
 962 2013-04-18 12:30:04 <TD> yes i am the primary author. not the only author. i'm not offended or anything, code is a personal thing. but i'm curious if there are simple ways to make it better
 963 2013-04-18 12:30:16 <jgm> Mutable objects are the big one for me
 964 2013-04-18 12:30:37 <diki> Just to let you know, I've used your address generation code, well part of it in an Android program of mine
 965 2013-04-18 12:30:38 <TD> you'd prefer a design with immutable core objects and builders?
 966 2013-04-18 12:30:44 <diki> ...which I mostly coded on my phone via AIDE
 967 2013-04-18 12:31:08 <jgm> I've just got to the stage in my life where I think that mutable objects have caused me so much heartache that yes the builder/immutable object path seems to be a no-brainer
 968 2013-04-18 12:31:10 <TD> diki: because like most employed software engineers, my contract says that any code i write is owned by the company i work for. and it was done in 20% time. so google owns the code but released it under an open source license.
 969 2013-04-18 12:31:23 <TD> jgm: ok, thanks for the feedback.
 970 2013-04-18 12:31:24 <diki> you work for google?
 971 2013-04-18 12:31:37 <TD> it doesn't use immutable objects partly because older android phones don't have very good garbage collectors
 972 2013-04-18 12:31:54 <diki> It's nice that you have written it with Android in mind.
 973 2013-04-18 12:32:05 <TD> these days with bloom filtering it's probably not such a big deal. but it used to be that we'd create lots of objects then throw them away. i might move to immutable objects over time, though java makes it quite ugly to do so
 974 2013-04-18 12:32:31 <TD> or perhaps just use a model of immutability that doesn't use builders. not sure.
 975 2013-04-18 12:33:28 <jgm> TD: out of interest, any reason you didn't use guava in your codebase?
 976 2013-04-18 12:33:54 <TD> it does use guava
 977 2013-04-18 12:34:14 <TD> look for the objects that return ListenableFutures and things
 978 2013-04-18 12:34:26 <jgm> Okay just haven't bumped in to those bits yet
 979 2013-04-18 12:34:41 <TD> we're using more of it over time
 980 2013-04-18 12:34:50 <diki> td:Pubkey from privkey was really slow on my android phone
 981 2013-04-18 12:34:52 <jsfsn> TD: How big is GO now inside Google?
 982 2013-04-18 12:34:56 <TD> i want to replace the usage of the bouncy castle hex/base64 codecs with the new ones in  guava 14
 983 2013-04-18 12:35:00 <diki> takes 1.2 seconds or so
 984 2013-04-18 12:35:20 <TD> diki: what kind of phone was that? it shouldn't be that slow. but the operation is an ecdsa point multiply which is somewhat intensive.
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 986 2013-04-18 12:35:32 <TD> jsfsn: getting bigger, i suppose. i don't really keep an eye on it.
 987 2013-04-18 12:35:51 <diki> TD:Galaxy S2
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 989 2013-04-18 12:36:26 <TD> hmm. that's still a lot higher than i'd expect. but i didn't measure on an S2. you have a gingerbread era dalvik and a slow-ish cpu there, unfortunately.
 990 2013-04-18 12:36:40 <diki> Nope
 991 2013-04-18 12:36:43 <diki> I had ICS
 992 2013-04-18 12:36:46 <TD> oh, ok
 993 2013-04-18 12:36:50 <diki> Now I have JB 4.1.2
 994 2013-04-18 12:36:57 <TD> i didn't realise they'd upgraded the S2 to jb
 995 2013-04-18 12:36:59 <TD> that's cool
 996 2013-04-18 12:37:45 <TD> i guess i should profile that then.
 997 2013-04-18 12:37:52 <TD> it'll become more important one we merge in deterministic wallets
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 999 2013-04-18 12:38:16 <diki> I have my own version of "deterministic wallets"
1000 2013-04-18 12:39:11 <TD> jgm: anyway, i wouldn't be surprised if we evolve things into the direction of immutable objects over time, at least for blocks and transactions. for peers it's harder.
1001 2013-04-18 12:40:08 <sipa> TD: unless you're doing watch-only wallets with public derivation, you don't need EC multiplications (at least, not more than normal from-random key generation)
1002 2013-04-18 12:40:32 <TD> yeah, i know, right now the android app doesn't generate new keys very often though. just when you ask it to.
1003 2013-04-18 12:40:40 <sipa> oh right, indeed
1004 2013-04-18 12:41:02 <TD> so for instance when catching up with the block chain, we'll have to make sure that new keys are generated on background threads i guess, and do it far enough in advance that a few missed addresses don't cause it to lose sync
1005 2013-04-18 12:41:26 <TD> (if you restore a backup from just a seed)
1006 2013-04-18 12:41:31 <jgm> Yep there are a lot of the more active bits I can see it might not be worth it.  But for the bits which are commonly user-generated (transactions being the obvious items) I just find it friendlier
1007 2013-04-18 12:42:10 <TD> i think that's a fair point. i suspect there may be bugs in there caused by objects changing whilst inside hashmaps, though i don't think my code ever does that api users certainly could.
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1009 2013-04-18 12:42:53 <TD> one problematic API design point i never really came up with a good fix for is it's very easy to assume if you have two transaction objects with the same hash they are the same
1010 2013-04-18 12:43:12 <TD> but a transaction is really wire data+extra stuff, like spent flags, confidence data, maybe in future user assigned data like descriptions and so on.
1011 2013-04-18 12:43:39 <TD> so you get tx.getHash() not being the same thing as tx.hashCode() which seems ripe for confusion
1012 2013-04-18 12:44:02 <jgm> Sounds like the "extra stuff" is part of another object, which would probably include the transaction.
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1014 2013-04-18 12:44:38 <jgm> If you want to keep the Transaction a pure representation of what is in the blockchain, anyway
1015 2013-04-18 12:45:27 <TD> yeah. some of it is already in an extra object. well, anyway, this is by no means the ugliest part of the bitcoinj api :) unfortunately my focus has always been exclusively on android performance and making the mobile wallet work well
1016 2013-04-18 12:45:48 <TD> so new features > api cleanups for 2+ years. there have been plenty of api improvements but some obvious uglyness is still there because it was never the highest priority
1017 2013-04-18 12:46:00 <TD> at some point i guess i'll be happy with the android app and can switch focus to other thing
1018 2013-04-18 12:46:01 <jgm> Yeah I know how it goes, very hard to change things
1019 2013-04-18 12:46:35 <jgm> Plus API cleanups always have big knock-on effects on existing codebases so the type of thing you want to do once, properly, rather than tweaking bits every release
1020 2013-04-18 12:48:02 <TD> yeah. usually there are a few small API cleanups in each bitcoinj release but they're not ever disruptive. the biggest one has been the move to requiring event listeners to be thread safe. but eventually we'll just have one release that focuses on API cleanups and then go through and do all the disruptive changes at once
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1023 2013-04-18 12:49:25 <jgm> Yeah a move from mutable to immutable would count as a big change.  Good to have the Java codebase there though; handy for me to use as another learning resource on top of the docs and the C codebase
1024 2013-04-18 12:50:05 <TD> c++, you mean?
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1028 2013-04-18 12:54:43 <jsfsn> TD: I see you support Scrypt
1029 2013-04-18 12:54:53 <jsfsn> TD: Where is that used in Bitcoin?
1030 2013-04-18 12:55:17 <jsfsn> Encryption of wallet?
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1034 2013-04-18 12:57:05 <TD> yes
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1073 2013-04-18 13:30:10 <jgm> T:D Any particular reason you used BigInteger for holding bitcoin values (sepecifically looking at TransactionOutput)?  From my quick maths it appears that a long can happily hold the maximum number of satoshis
1074 2013-04-18 13:30:34 <diki> not really
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1076 2013-04-18 13:31:14 <Luke-Jr> jgm: a long can only go up to 4294967296, or 42.94967296 BTC
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1078 2013-04-18 13:31:40 <jgm> Luke-Jr: sorry, talking in Java here
1079 2013-04-18 13:31:49 <wumpus> bitcoind uses "long long", though I don't think you have that in java
1080 2013-04-18 13:32:56 <TD> jgm: it's long since on the list of things to change. when i started writing it years ago i was worried people would try adding up large but valid numbers of bitcoins and end up with overflows, but it wasn't a good call. at some point i'll replace them all with longs.
1081 2013-04-18 13:33:06 <TD> (first sentence pun not intended)
1082 2013-04-18 13:33:20 <TD> wumpus: sadly java does not have unsigned types.
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1084 2013-04-18 13:33:29 <jgm> TD: okay thanks.  Wanted to ensure that I wasn't missing anything obvious
1085 2013-04-18 13:33:32 <TD> wumpus: there is a utility class in guava that gives you unsigned operations on top
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1087 2013-04-18 13:33:52 <jsfsn> Luke-Jr: Long is usually 64bit
1088 2013-04-18 13:33:53 <TD> jgm: nope, just one of those bits of uglyness that was never more important than performance improvements and other things. see also: "nanocoins", ugh
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1090 2013-04-18 13:34:48 <Luke-Jr> jsfsn: not usually, no
1091 2013-04-18 13:35:11 <jsfsn> I thought java's long was?
1092 2013-04-18 13:35:21 <jgm> Yep funnily enough just putting together a couple of classes to handle conversion from all of the various denominations so I don't have to think about it afterwards.  Carting around suffixes everywhere just creates ugly code
1093 2013-04-18 13:35:27 <Luke-Jr> not interested in Java backwardness; that's hardly "usual"
1094 2013-04-18 13:35:31 <jgm> jsfsn: Yep Java longs are 64-bit (signed)
1095 2013-04-18 13:35:34 <jsfsn> C# as well
1096 2013-04-18 13:35:45 <wumpus> TD: I actually like using Bigdecimal for money numbers, at least you're guaranteed it will never overflow
1097 2013-04-18 13:36:04 <wumpus> eh BigInteger, Decimal is for Python
1098 2013-04-18 13:36:06 <TD> yes, but then you could represent values smaller than what is expressable in the protocol. also these things are memory hungry.
1099 2013-04-18 13:36:12 <TD> no java has a BigDecimal class too
1100 2013-04-18 13:36:40 <TD> in practice i think providing some utility class to work with value units represented using longs that checks you against MAX_MONEY and so on is the right way to go
1101 2013-04-18 13:36:54 <TD> it could also do currency conversions for you and so on. but again .... on the backburner.
1102 2013-04-18 13:37:04 <sipa> java's long can hold 63 bits (+ sign); the maximum allowed bitcoin amount in satoshis is below 2^51
1103 2013-04-18 13:37:35 <jsfsn> sipa: I would say that is 64 bit tho, including the sign
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1105 2013-04-18 13:37:42 <jgm> TD: you'll be welcome to the code when I get around to writing it
1106 2013-04-18 13:37:56 <jsfsn> long is C# is defined as Int64
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1108 2013-04-18 13:38:03 <TD> thanks. there's already a library that does exchange lookups and conversions, multibit uses it
1109 2013-04-18 13:38:07 <TD> openxchange i think it's calle
1110 2013-04-18 13:38:08 <TD> called
1111 2013-04-18 13:38:17 <TD> but i'd like to merge that functionality into the core of bitcoinj as it's such a common need
1112 2013-04-18 13:38:22 <TD> or at least integrate it
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1116 2013-04-18 13:40:23 <TD> so many things to do ....
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1118 2013-04-18 13:41:29 <sipa> :)
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1133 2013-04-18 13:54:09 <praveen_____> hello
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1138 2013-04-18 13:57:25 <paulo_> for non-coin blockchains, what would be the incentive for creating blocks?
1139 2013-04-18 13:58:26 <SomeoneWeird> moving coins
1140 2013-04-18 13:58:28 <SomeoneWeird> i suppose
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1143 2013-04-18 13:59:43 <TD> paulo_: you could merge-mine with bitcoin "for free"
1144 2013-04-18 13:59:52 <TD> so there might not need to be much incentive
1145 2013-04-18 13:59:59 <paulo_> I was thinking of a blockchain application, though I'm not really sure if a block chain is necesarry.
1146 2013-04-18 14:00:21 <paulo_> It's distributed game tallying network.
1147 2013-04-18 14:00:33 <paulo_> like, the network will calculate the top 10 players of a board game
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1149 2013-04-18 14:01:24 <paulo_> I have a basic p2p implementation of the game.
1150 2013-04-18 14:01:45 <paulo_> the network will encode every game that took place.
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1154 2013-04-18 14:03:49 <paulo_> There will be protection measures against players that cheat by creating fake players.
1155 2013-04-18 14:03:59 <TD> paulo_: block chains have a specific purpose - they solve a problem where a bunch of participants want to agree on the ordering of some messages, and some may be malicious, and people may join/leave at any time.
1156 2013-04-18 14:04:10 <TD> for a game, i guess once the participants start if one drops out the game is over
1157 2013-04-18 14:04:15 <TD> and new people can't join once the game begins
1158 2013-04-18 14:04:20 <TD> so maybe you could just use paxos for that
1159 2013-04-18 14:05:14 <TD> jgm: question - when you design APIs/classes, do you prefer Foo and ImmutableFoo objects, or Foo and Foo.Builder?
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1171 2013-04-18 14:09:50 <jgm> The latter
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1175 2013-04-18 14:10:28 <paulo_> TD: The network i'm planning is not just for two players.
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1179 2013-04-18 14:10:45 <jgm> Honestly, neither are pretty but I think it's good to make it clear that you're using a builder rather than creating the actual object and calling a bunch of setters
1180 2013-04-18 14:10:48 <HM2> paulo_: does it scale to 2^256 players?
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1183 2013-04-18 14:11:10 <TD> it seems like the question is whether you normally want the immutable version or just sometimes
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1186 2013-04-18 14:12:06 <jgm> If I build with immutable objects from the ground up it turns out that it's very rare that you want to tweak objects.  If you 're going to change them it's usually a big set of changes
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1192 2013-04-18 14:13:06 <jgm> And for that I have a constructor for the builder which takes an existing object to populate the builder fields, so updating is newFoo = new Foo.Builder(oldFoo).field(val).build();
1193 2013-04-18 14:13:19 <jgm> Again, not amazingly pretty but not desparately ugly either
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1196 2013-04-18 14:13:53 <TD> i think that pattern feels very verbose because i tend to see it with protocol buffers. which are not a great example of immutability making sense.
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1199 2013-04-18 14:14:32 <TD> something that in c++ would be just initializing a struct and setting a few fields becomes two objects and a fair amount of boilerplate.
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1203 2013-04-18 14:15:19 <jgm> Yep it's definitely more verbose
1204 2013-04-18 14:16:18 <jgm> But when it takes that much effort to alter objects you start to find out that you're more careful about what goes in to them, and objects and related state often find themselves in different classes (viz our Transaction conversation earlier)
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1207 2013-04-18 14:20:46 <TD> one issue is that in the current design, people attach listeners to transactions to learn when metadata about them changes.
1208 2013-04-18 14:20:51 <TD> for example, how deeply buried in the chain it is
1209 2013-04-18 14:21:10 <TD> well they actually attach to a separate "confidence" object, but that design causes different problems
1210 2013-04-18 14:21:26 <TD> so i am planning to move the listeners to the transaction object itself. when then makes it mutable again (via the list of listeners)
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1213 2013-04-18 14:22:33 <jgm> So just me, but I'd have separate Transaction and TransactionState objects, or change Transaction to TransactionDefinition and allow Transaction to be the live view with the additional metadata
1214 2013-04-18 14:23:10 <TD> probably the same design satoshi used makes sense - Transaction should become immutable and just represent the wire data, and then WalletTransaction can hold mutable state for that stuff.
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1217 2013-04-18 14:25:01 <jgm> Yep that would work
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1224 2013-04-18 14:33:21 <itiwitirie>  http://cur.lv/mzp2  http://cur.lv/mtei  http://cur.lv/mte4  http://cur.lv/mghh  http://cur.lv/mgfe  http://cur.lv/mget  http://cur.lv/mgeh  http://cur.lv/mgcq  http://cur.lv/mgc7  http://cur.lv/mgb7  http://cur.lv/mgaz  http://cur.lv/mgar  http://cur.lv/mg1a  http://cur.lv/mg17  http://cur.lv/mg12  http://cur.lv/mg0z  http://cur.lv/mg0w  http://cur.lv/mg0n  http://cur.lv/mg0b  http://cur.lv/mg09  http://cur.lv/mg07
1225 2013-04-18 14:33:23 itiwitirie has quit (Client Quit)
1226 2013-04-18 14:34:21 <vrs> coinurl spam
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1229 2013-04-18 14:37:32 Qcumber has joined
1230 2013-04-18 14:37:45 <Qcumber> hey folks.. now that blockchain.info is down (temporarily I hope?) does anyone know another site where I can send raw Bitcoin transactions to the network?
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1232 2013-04-18 14:38:21 <BlueMatt> bitcoind
1233 2013-04-18 14:39:08 <Qcumber> sorry, kinda inexperienced with that, can I just run that on windows?
1234 2013-04-18 14:39:16 <Qcumber> and is it part of the Bitcoin-Qt client, or something separate?
1235 2013-04-18 14:39:56 <Qcumber> oh wait I got that
1236 2013-04-18 14:39:59 <BlueMatt> yes, when you download bitcoin-qt there is also a bitcoind.exe there (it is the same internals, just without the gui)
1237 2013-04-18 14:40:14 <BlueMatt> you can also run bitcoin-qt with -server to get the same result, or even go in the GUI to the rpc console window
1238 2013-04-18 14:41:17 <joe_k> the question is how can I get the gui to talk to the server running 24/7 on my unix machine
1239 2013-04-18 14:42:17 ubias has joined
1240 2013-04-18 14:43:00 <HM2> I see Sergios wordpress post made HN
1241 2013-04-18 14:46:06 <ubias> Hey, does the -port=portnum command work currently ?
1242 2013-04-18 14:46:24 <ubias> i cant seem to get i to change either from bitcoind.conf or on the command line
1243 2013-04-18 14:47:05 <BlueMatt> joe_k: if you mean bitcoin-qt connect as a client to bitcoind, you cant
1244 2013-04-18 14:47:16 <ubias> Nope, mean bitcoind
1245 2013-04-18 14:47:16 <BlueMatt> joe_k: there are other clients which do that though (many of them outdated)
1246 2013-04-18 14:47:45 <ubias> Running to copies, want the second one to startup on port=12001
1247 2013-04-18 14:47:48 roconnor has joined
1248 2013-04-18 14:47:53 <BlueMatt> ubias: (wasnt talking to you...) anyway, so netstat -lnp (or equivalent) is showing it listening on a different port, or what?
1249 2013-04-18 14:48:25 <ubias> was showing running on 8333
1250 2013-04-18 14:48:30 <ubias> but bound to 127.0.0.1
1251 2013-04-18 14:49:33 <ubias> and its decided to work
1252 2013-04-18 14:49:37 <ubias> hmph
1253 2013-04-18 14:49:56 <BlueMatt> hey, at least it works :)
1254 2013-04-18 14:50:10 <ubias> lol
1255 2013-04-18 14:50:38 <ubias> hmm scratches head
1256 2013-04-18 14:50:49 <Qcumber> anyone knows what's going on with blockchain.info, will it be back up soon?
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1268 2013-04-18 15:09:57 <Pagoda> Hi there! I decided to write my own mining app...  finally have a basic setup that uses getblocktemplate. Now, I only need a way to test it. Anyone know where I can get data to use? I can't seem to find any on the net
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1270 2013-04-18 15:10:19 <Cryo> testnet?
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1277 2013-04-18 15:12:43 <Pagoda> Cyro: You, my friend, deserve a high-five!
1278 2013-04-18 15:12:45 Davincij15 has joined
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1285 2013-04-18 15:17:21 <Cryo> and a shot of whiskey
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1289 2013-04-18 15:24:10 <jaakkos> i would suggest that "By starting to mine or acquire bitcoins today, you too can become an early adopter." is removed from https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths#Early_adopters_are_unfairly_rewarded
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1291 2013-04-18 15:24:34 <jaakkos> (i'm not arguing that it's false)
1292 2013-04-18 15:24:42 <BlueMatt> probably
1293 2013-04-18 15:25:11 <sipa> i feel it's wrong to even use the word 'early adopter' at all
1294 2013-04-18 15:25:40 <sipa> as that statement seems to exactly affirm that early adopters are unfairly rewarded (but you can still be one of them)
1295 2013-04-18 15:27:07 Michail1_ is now known as Michail1
1296 2013-04-18 15:28:29 <jaakkos> well, i'm not sure why using 'early adopter' would be wrong. you can always argue that the early adopters didn't know about future, spent tens of kBTC on pizza and lost their keys, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
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1304 2013-04-18 15:35:05 <Pagoda> @jaakkos: I would think that without the early adopters there would be no bitcoin.
1305 2013-04-18 15:35:51 <sipa> of course there are early adopters, and of course if they never sold they cheaply acquired bitcoin, they have an advantage
1306 2013-04-18 15:35:53 <Pagoda> As botcoin is a currency, not a commodity. As such, a currency is only as strong as the usage thereof...
1307 2013-04-18 15:36:12 <sipa> but the response should be that it's not unfair
1308 2013-04-18 15:37:00 <Pagoda> On the flip side, if all those miners kept their coin, the value of bitcoin would be 0
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1312 2013-04-18 15:39:41 <Pagoda> I am running a windows machine with bitcoin-qt. I added a config file with -testnet. How do I know if it is actually running in testnet mode?
1313 2013-04-18 15:40:22 <Pagoda> Looking at it now it appears to be syncing a quite a few blocks...
1314 2013-04-18 15:41:31 <saracen> Probably an easier way, but if you open up the rpc console and type getinfo
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1316 2013-04-18 15:41:41 <saracen> It will report the difficulty, which should be way less than mainnet
1317 2013-04-18 15:41:57 <Pagoda> rpc console?
1318 2013-04-18 15:42:21 <saracen> I think it's called Debug Console or something
1319 2013-04-18 15:42:27 <sipa> type 'getinfo' in the debug console
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1321 2013-04-18 15:42:33 <Pagoda> Ah!!! Sweet!
1322 2013-04-18 15:42:36 <sipa> it will tell you testnet: false or true
1323 2013-04-18 15:42:44 <Pagoda> found it, thanks a bunch!
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1326 2013-04-18 15:43:46 <saracen> I think I'll update the rpc command listing on the wiki when I have time :(
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1334 2013-04-18 15:46:46 <t7> hypothetical question: What do you think would happen if the rewards were constant until they ran out rather than halving every n blocks?
1335 2013-04-18 15:47:03 <sipa> if they stay constant, how can they run out?
1336 2013-04-18 15:47:05 n5 has joined
1337 2013-04-18 15:47:18 <t7> err flat i mean
1338 2013-04-18 15:47:39 <t7> if they didnt half but just stopped
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1341 2013-04-18 15:48:02 <jaakkos> so the coins would be released in a linear manner
1342 2013-04-18 15:48:06 <t7> massive world ending panic when they did stop ?
1343 2013-04-18 15:48:30 CaptainBlaze has joined
1344 2013-04-18 15:48:36 <jaakkos> i've also been thinking why the release curve was chosen as it was
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1346 2013-04-18 15:49:00 <michagogo> Pagoda: Another way is to generate an address
1347 2013-04-18 15:49:06 <michagogo> See whether it starts with 1 or M
1348 2013-04-18 15:50:00 <michagogo> jaakkos: I assume so that the shift from coins from mining to coins from tx fees is gradual
1349 2013-04-18 15:50:26 <michagogo> And you don't have people mining right up until the edge and then a sudden massive drop in the network's hashrate
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1351 2013-04-18 15:50:56 <jaakkos> yeah, that would be quite extreme
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1353 2013-04-18 15:51:08 <BlueMatt> jaakkos: if you dont provide something for initial investors, they wont come meaning others cant come after them
1354 2013-04-18 15:51:13 <ubias> Pagoda, also the icon turns green for testnet
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1359 2013-04-18 15:51:53 <BlueMatt> jaakkos: you also have to incentivize mining beyond transaction fees initially when there arent transaction fees
1360 2013-04-18 15:51:57 <jaakkos> BlueMatt: one could argue that the low difficulty would already be that "something"
1361 2013-04-18 15:52:35 <t7> have the ripple devs released any papers? i cant find a thing
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1364 2013-04-18 15:53:56 <jaakkos> but yeah, the shift to txfees should certainly be smooth
1365 2013-04-18 15:54:16 polrpaul has joined
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1367 2013-04-18 15:54:35 <pigeons> t7: i think its still "coming soon" https://ripple.com/wiki/Unedited_Notes
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1369 2013-04-18 15:55:42 <Pagoda> Thanks for all the help everyone! Cheers
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1372 2013-04-18 15:57:26 <t7> im not sure i trust ripple until i see some greek letters and words i can't understand
1373 2013-04-18 15:57:58 <michagogo> sigma pi supercalifragelisticexpialidocious, t7
1374 2013-04-18 15:58:48 <t7> it seems like nothing has been formalized and the model is kinda hard for me to wrap my head around
1375 2013-04-18 15:59:37 <t7> but i am optimistic :D
1376 2013-04-18 15:59:38 bitnumus is now known as bitcoinbull
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1396 2013-04-18 16:16:16 <EA> After getwork(), found the nonce putting the nonce back into data...do I need to update the timestamp as well or can I just send it ?
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1425 2013-04-18 16:43:14 <erle-> whats the plan for bitcoin to come until v1.0?
1426 2013-04-18 16:44:05 <BlueMatt> world domination!!!
1427 2013-04-18 16:44:17 <erle-> thats already built into it
1428 2013-04-18 16:44:20 <BlueMatt> no, payment protocol, mostly usability stuff
1429 2013-04-18 16:44:28 <jiffe98> can anyone suggest a good fpga for < $300 for mining?
1430 2013-04-18 16:44:41 <BlueMatt> #bitcoin-mining
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1475 2013-04-18 17:17:16 <K1773R> Luke-Jr *HL*
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1494 2013-04-18 17:37:40 <SeeBoon> After getwork(), found the nonce putting the nonce back into data...do I need to update the timestamp as well or can I just send it ?
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1497 2013-04-18 17:39:23 <lianj> SeeBoon: if you change the timestamp after the nonce then you have to restart the mining because it changes the block hash / result
1498 2013-04-18 17:39:35 <SeeBoon> Ooo
1499 2013-04-18 17:39:36 <SeeBoon> Ok
1500 2013-04-18 17:40:54 <SeeBoon> So the correct thing to do is just to put the correct nonce back into the source data [the last 8 characters of the first 160 characters of the source data], add in the original garbbage after the first 160 character of the source data and send through param
1501 2013-04-18 17:40:55 <SeeBoon> Thanks
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1506 2013-04-18 17:43:23 <dansmith_btc> Hi, I remember reading somewhere that it's possible to open a channel between to parties. The parties with each other during the day, but their transactions are not broadcast to the blockchain. Only at the end of the trading day, they offload the grand total of all transactions to the blockchain. Is that really possible?
1507 2013-04-18 17:43:54 <dansmith_btc> typo: *The parties TRADE with each other
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1510 2013-04-18 17:45:04 <SeeBoon> So you expect all the transactions between the both of you to keep on hashing each other and by the end of your transaction, form the final Merkle root and have the entire network verify that later ?
1511 2013-04-18 17:45:44 <paulo_> SeeBoon: you just publish all the transactions. no need to put it in a merkle root.
1512 2013-04-18 17:45:52 <paulo_> the miners will do that
1513 2013-04-18 17:46:06 <dansmith_btc> SeeBoon, I'm not really sure about the mehanics. Are you saying it is possible?
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1515 2013-04-18 17:46:14 <gmaxwell> dansmith_btc: is asking about the payment channels stuff.
1516 2013-04-18 17:46:22 <gmaxwell> And it's not clear if it's actually possible to do it securely.
1517 2013-04-18 17:46:29 <SeeBoon> It is definitely possible.
1518 2013-04-18 17:46:30 <SeeBoon> BUT
1519 2013-04-18 17:46:43 <SeeBoon> I am just wondering the implication when everyone starts doing that.
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1521 2013-04-18 17:47:08 <SeeBoon> Then the verification process will be very stressful for everyone acting as the verifier.
1522 2013-04-18 17:47:09 * gmaxwell finding a link
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1524 2013-04-18 17:47:17 <gmaxwell> SeeBoon: stop. You don't know what he's talking about.
1525 2013-04-18 17:47:17 <SeeBoon> This is ofcourse...if everyone starts doing that.
1526 2013-04-18 17:47:56 <paulo_> Why would you want to publish the transactions at the end of the day instead of whe nit happens?
1527 2013-04-18 17:48:03 <paulo_> *when it
1528 2013-04-18 17:48:17 <dansmith_btc> paulo_, that's for p2p exchange
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1530 2013-04-18 17:48:54 <paulo_> oh. I don't know how that's going to work yet.
1531 2013-04-18 17:49:07 <jspilman> payment channels don't increase verification load, they would decrease load... less txs on the blockchain.  but they have limited applications.  you need to commit the maximum amount you would pay in through the channel up front, as well as a fixed expiration time for the channel.
1532 2013-04-18 17:49:20 <gmaxwell> dansmith_btc: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_7:_Rapidly-adjusted_.28micro.29payments_to_a_pre-determined_party
1533 2013-04-18 17:49:39 <SeeBoon> But then you need need a "central authourity" when you are playing your "p2p" transcation trading game.
1534 2013-04-18 17:50:03 <gmaxwell> jspilman: and there is the problem of one of the parties forcing the penultimate payment and then convincing miners to mine it instead of the ultimate one via a child with higher fees.
1535 2013-04-18 17:50:11 <SeeBoon> Because who else then who make sure the both of you go "ok, this whatever we are doing sucks...I lose too much now...I am not playing...this never happened".
1536 2013-04-18 17:50:14 <gmaxwell> SeeBoon: No you don't.
1537 2013-04-18 17:50:26 <gmaxwell> SeeBoon: see the link I just provided.
1538 2013-04-18 17:50:32 <jspilman> gmaxwell: exactly, as we discussed last week
1539 2013-04-18 17:50:50 <gmaxwell> jspilman: I wasn't around for that discussion, but it's a well understood issue with that approach.
1540 2013-04-18 17:51:12 <gmaxwell> (weird that the page doesn't mention that limitation)
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1544 2013-04-18 17:52:08 <SeeBoon> Oh
1545 2013-04-18 17:52:08 <SeeBoon> Ok
1546 2013-04-18 17:52:14 <SeeBoon> Thanks for the heads up
1547 2013-04-18 17:52:16 <SeeBoon> Reading it.
1548 2013-04-18 17:52:44 <jspilman> gmaxwell: yeah, there are a few different write-ups, but I couldn't find any that analyze the weaknesses
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1553 2013-04-18 17:56:28 <petertodd> jspilman: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=30738521 <- I thought this post on the email list today was interesting. Gives an example of a micropayment channel that acts purely by assuming rational miner behavior.
1554 2013-04-18 17:56:47 <jspilman> gmaxwell: so either you need to trust your trading partner, trust a 3rd party, or have the penultimate nLockTime far enough in the future that you're confident some 'neutral' miner will take your ultimate txFee without waiting for a potentially much larger penultimate txFee
1555 2013-04-18 17:56:58 <jspilman> petertodd: thanks, will definitely check that out
1556 2013-04-18 17:57:00 <skinnkavaj> sipa: Is there anything "hardcoded" into bitcoin source code, meaning: if we can do 51% to another version in the future, what can't be changed with bitcoin?
1557 2013-04-18 17:57:36 <jspilman> I need to subscribe to that mailing list - lots of good discussion has moved there
1558 2013-04-18 17:58:07 <kadoban> skinnkavaj: there's checkpoints, is that what you're asking about (block hashes that are hardcoded as the correct one for a specific height)
1559 2013-04-18 17:58:07 <petertodd> jspilman: Yes, the forums are trolled endlessly.
1560 2013-04-18 17:58:51 <jspilman> Dillon's a little edgy, huh?  ("don't want to be contributing to your salary")
1561 2013-04-18 17:59:15 <skinnkavaj> kadoban: I mean can the source code be rewritten to make to outperform any other altcoin if we get 51% of the network to agree with us about the change?
1562 2013-04-18 17:59:36 <petertodd> jspilman: Yeah, I thought that was a bit much. On the other hand, I don't recognize the name, so he's probably new to all this and doesn't yet understand the give and take.
1563 2013-04-18 18:00:07 <gmaxwell> petertodd: hm. I hadn't been following that discussion. "Experience indicates that rational miners typically don't pursue a short-term" ... weird, because we know that miners happily turned over their hashpower in large numbers to sketchy services which didn't even tell people their business model for a 10%-20% premium.
1564 2013-04-18 18:00:39 <jspilman> what's the test-net DoS exposure? due to tx replacement?
1565 2013-04-18 18:00:58 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yes, but we have decided to make the distinction between miners and hashers. :)
1566 2013-04-18 18:01:12 <petertodd> jspilman: Yup. Just replace stuff endlessly until it all falls down.
1567 2013-04-18 18:01:16 <gmaxwell> though that message is unnecessarily inflammatory. :(
1568 2013-04-18 18:01:25 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: this might interest you https://gist.github.com/luke-jr/5409899
1569 2013-04-18 18:01:54 <gmaxwell> petertodd: ahh. Okay. Well, I suppose that distinction needs to be made... but it's not clear if a insufficiently short term miner can stay in business.
1570 2013-04-18 18:02:09 <gmaxwell> the largest pool rotates a lot.
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1572 2013-04-18 18:02:30 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yeah, point being, pools seem to be a little longer-term, and more intelligent, than hashers.
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1574 2013-04-18 18:03:17 <jspilman> when a few if statements equals more money in txFees... 'rational' is whatever gets them the highest fees, right?
1575 2013-04-18 18:03:21 * petertodd will brb
1576 2013-04-18 18:04:00 <jspilman> re: txReplacement, so then why not set the min_fee based on the sequence number?
1577 2013-04-18 18:04:17 <jspilman> min_relay that is
1578 2013-04-18 18:05:31 <jspilman> if seq < seq_max, min_relay = 0.0005 * seq?
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1582 2013-04-18 18:09:15 <sipa> skinnkavaj: you completely misunderstand bitcoin if you think that 51% can set any rules
1583 2013-04-18 18:09:47 <sipa> skinnkavaj: there absolute only thing 51% can do is set the order in which otherwise valid transactions occur (up to delaying them indefinitely)
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1587 2013-04-18 18:12:08 <sipa> skinnkavaj: all other rules are checked independently by every single full node, and they must all individually come to the same conclusion about what is valid
1588 2013-04-18 18:12:23 <jspilman> the users/economy makes the rules, by choosing which client code to run. the miners follow the economy, because the coinbase and txFees are only valuable on the fork the users/economy agree with
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1590 2013-04-18 18:13:58 <skinnkavaj> sipa: But if somehow developers fucks up and puts in a very serious bug, and if i understood it correctly, the solution is for the miners to NOT upgrade their clients.. But then it should be possible to rewrite bitcoin source code to function like for example litecoin, and have 51% of the network upgrade their clients to support that BIG change?
1591 2013-04-18 18:14:27 <petertodd> jspilman: In thoery, in practice I think there are situations where miners do have a lot of sway - they can attack you via 51%, but that situation isn't in the present network.
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1594 2013-04-18 18:16:22 <sipa> skinnkavaj: the only way to change the rules, is by _everyone_ changing the software
1595 2013-04-18 18:16:24 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: hardforks require 100% upgrade
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1598 2013-04-18 18:16:36 <petertodd> luke-jr: nifty
1599 2013-04-18 18:16:36 <sipa> skinnkavaj: not every miner, _everyone_
1600 2013-04-18 18:16:48 <skinnkavaj> That must be impossible
1601 2013-04-18 18:16:57 <michagogo> It wouldn't be 51% of hash power
1602 2013-04-18 18:17:03 <michagogo> It would be 51% of actual users
1603 2013-04-18 18:17:03 <sipa> skinnkavaj: however, if there is >50% support from miners, you can _add_ a rule
1604 2013-04-18 18:17:11 <sipa> michagogo: no _100_ %
1605 2013-04-18 18:17:22 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: if enough people do so, they can force the remaining to choose between upgrading or not being part of bitcoin anymore
1606 2013-04-18 18:17:33 <michagogo> sipa: Well, the 49% would simply be left behind
1607 2013-04-18 18:17:40 <michagogo> what Luke-Jr said
1608 2013-04-18 18:17:51 <sipa> michagogo: or from the other's point of view, the 51% would simply be left behind
1609 2013-04-18 18:17:53 <Luke-Jr> a mere 51% of users wouldn't do that though
1610 2013-04-18 18:18:09 <Luke-Jr> what matters is if the merchants people want to pay do it
1611 2013-04-18 18:18:10 <michagogo> I guess
1612 2013-04-18 18:18:15 <sipa> there's no difference either way, except one of the sides may be the "economically strongest"
1613 2013-04-18 18:18:19 <Luke-Jr> so right now, MtGox is the sole decider in practice
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1615 2013-04-18 18:18:24 <michagogo> It would basically split btc in half
1616 2013-04-18 18:18:32 <skinnkavaj> sipa, Luke-Jr, michagogo: So then there is no need for any serious altcoin competition, because if an altcoin is such a better improvement, we can get everyone to upgrade their bitcoin clients instead of joing an altcoin?
1617 2013-04-18 18:18:44 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: exactly
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1619 2013-04-18 18:18:50 <sipa> depends
1620 2013-04-18 18:18:51 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: I doubt that. MtGox has huge volume, but how much of that is purely internal?
1621 2013-04-18 18:18:59 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: basically the only change that cannot be made to bitcoin, are those economic in nature
1622 2013-04-18 18:19:06 <Luke-Jr> for example, anythign other than 21 mil coins
1623 2013-04-18 18:19:18 <sipa> some changes may be conflicting with bitcoin in a very essential way, that no consensus could be achieved about, but still be a technical improvement
1624 2013-04-18 18:19:20 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: I don't see how internal-or-not is relevant
1625 2013-04-18 18:19:31 <sipa> such changes are good candidates to experiment with in altcoins
1626 2013-04-18 18:19:35 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: most merchants rely on MtGox to sell their coins
1627 2013-04-18 18:20:20 <Luke-Jr> sipa: experimentation yes, but if it proved a success it would still be viable to adopt most into bitcoin
1628 2013-04-18 18:20:26 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Well, what defines 'economic majority' is very slippery, it's easy enough to tell MtGox to piss off and go elsewhere. IE for all we know the majority of actual trade is SilkRoad, and that lot is likely to be doing local transfers a lot more than average.
1629 2013-04-18 18:20:44 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr: Then I don't understand why you would like to destroy litecoin. Because altcoin is then just an expirement and bitcoin will always have the highest support by the network, so if any other litecoin is much better then the current bitcoin version.. Then we just get 51% of the network to agree about that change and implement it to bitcoin source code?
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1631 2013-04-18 18:21:12 <sipa> i consider litecoin an uninteresting and mostly failed experiment
1632 2013-04-18 18:21:17 <sipa> for the rest, i don't care about it
1633 2013-04-18 18:21:21 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: off-topic here, but it comes down to scamming others and making bitcoin look bad
1634 2013-04-18 18:22:02 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr: Alright, I will always be open for change and think you should always be too.. Because if this is possible, we can all unite under the "bitcoin" name and source code
1635 2013-04-18 18:22:24 <petertodd> skinnkavaj: the alt-coins already have united under the bitcoin sourcecode... but that's lazyness
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1637 2013-04-18 18:22:44 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: I'm quite open to changes.
1638 2013-04-18 18:22:54 <Luke-Jr> just not scamming
1639 2013-04-18 18:23:07 <sipa> skinnkavaj: i think that believing we'll ever get wide consensus about deeply changing but technically viable changes is naive
1640 2013-04-18 18:23:41 <sipa> bitcoin is largely defined by what people expect it to, including early adopters who liked it because of certain properties
1641 2013-04-18 18:23:41 <jspilman> reading Mike Hearn's latest email on Anti-DoS -- why is this true? "Remember, you'd have to increase the fee for each replacement regardless of whether it's presented to the network or not."
1642 2013-04-18 18:23:53 <sipa> jspilman: i don't understand that either
1643 2013-04-18 18:24:23 <Luke-Jr> sipa: meh, I think if Litecoin's scrypt really worked for ensuring mining was equal among all real participants, Bitcoin could eventually get consensus to adopt it
1644 2013-04-18 18:24:24 <petertodd> jspilman: The SIGHASH stuff is pretty limited; with SIGHASH_ALL you can't change the fee after the fact.
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1646 2013-04-18 18:24:51 <petertodd> jspilman: John's clever idea was to realize that SIGHASH_SINGLE was sufficient, provided tx-replacement by sequence # *wasn't* used.
1647 2013-04-18 18:24:52 <gmaxwell> Presumably because every replacement must be present-worthy, e.g. if your counterparty presents X-1 you want to be able to present X and have the network take it.
1648 2013-04-18 18:24:57 <jspilman> I don't see why you need to increment the sequence number at all in the 'internal' back and forth
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1650 2013-04-18 18:25:17 <petertodd> jspilman: It's so the replacement code knows which is the last tx.
1651 2013-04-18 18:25:30 <jspilman> well, in the case of payment channels, but the receiving party isn't signing the intermediate transactions
1652 2013-04-18 18:25:41 <petertodd> jspilman: But unlike everything else, nodes using the replacement code is entirely optional - it's a convention at best, not a network rule.
1653 2013-04-18 18:26:03 <petertodd> jspilman: No, they have to sign all the intermediate ones, or the counter-party can just walk away.
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1655 2013-04-18 18:26:26 <petertodd> jspilman: Oh hang on, no, you make a very good point.
1656 2013-04-18 18:26:29 <jspilman> the payer signs, payee receives, and holds
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1660 2013-04-18 18:27:02 <jspilman> the only tx you have to 'beat' is the failsafe 'return funds to payer'
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1665 2013-04-18 18:28:23 <jspilman> all the intermediate txs should actually be final with no lock time, no replacement is even required
1666 2013-04-18 18:28:25 <petertodd> So now the protocol can be create TX1 with the 2-of-2 outputs, then create the refund tx nLockTime'd to the future, then as the session progresses the payer keeps signing increasingly expensive transactions. The receiver can choose to sign the last one and broadcast it before nLockTime expires.
1667 2013-04-18 18:28:36 <petertodd> The payer can't broadcast any of them.
1668 2013-04-18 18:28:42 <jspilman> right
1669 2013-04-18 18:28:46 <petertodd> No replacement needed at all. Nice!
1670 2013-04-18 18:28:59 <petertodd> I think you should post that to bitcoin-development right now. ;)
1671 2013-04-18 18:29:08 <jspilman> isn't that the idea all along?? :-)
1672 2013-04-18 18:29:19 <petertodd> Heh
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1676 2013-04-18 18:31:04 <jspilman> you still have a problem if the payer spends a follow on tx to their nLockTime refund with a large fee -- effectively a bounty on getting their funds back
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1679 2013-04-18 18:32:24 <petertodd> Yeah, although miners are basicaly presenting with a choice of maybe getting the fee later, or maybe getting the smaller fee now. Depends on how much hashing power they control, but with a nLockTime sufficiently in the future, they're going to choice the one they can get now.
1680 2013-04-18 18:32:43 <jspilman> game theory says someone will take the lower fee now
1681 2013-04-18 18:33:21 <jspilman> it's classic prisoners dilema I think
1682 2013-04-18 18:33:45 <petertodd> Yeah, somehign like that. Anyway, go write it up, and write some damn source code too while you're at it. :P
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1691 2013-04-18 18:45:11 <petertodd> jspilman: Oh, and unlike the original micropayment channel stuff, the txin from the buyer should use SIGHASH_SINGLE and have a corresponding txout for their change in that slot. SINGLE signs all txin's, so basically it's saying "give x BTC to this address, and I don't care what the other guy wants", which allows the vendor to set fees after the fact or even change where the funds are going to after the fact.
1692 2013-04-18 18:45:54 <petertodd> Similarly, the nLockTime'd tx can just have the one input and one output, from the mutually held funds, to the buyers change address.
1693 2013-04-18 18:47:21 <petertodd> Oh, even better actually... you can use *multiple* different SIGHASH's for CHECKMULTISIG, so the buyer should use SINGLE|ANYONECANPAY and the vendor then uses the standard SIGHASH_ALL, letting them do anything at all with the buyer's purchase partial tx fragment.
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1695 2013-04-18 18:48:12 <K1773R> Luke-Jr: got some time to check the qry?
1696 2013-04-18 18:48:31 <Luke-Jr> K1773R: busy atm, but remind me in a bit
1697 2013-04-18 18:48:56 <K1773R> sure
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1771 2013-04-18 19:43:51 <JyZyXEL> where was it explained why bitcoin targets to 10 minutes per block?
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1774 2013-04-18 19:45:34 <SchmalzTech> JyZyXEL: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ#How_are_new_bitcoins_created.3F
1775 2013-04-18 19:45:44 <helo> i don't think there's a definite quantifiable justification
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1780 2013-04-18 19:47:17 <JyZyXEL> well i think one reason was so the transactions would have enough time to spread trough the network
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1783 2013-04-18 19:47:29 <JyZyXEL> or something like that...
1784 2013-04-18 19:47:46 <jgarzik> 2013-04-18 19:25:07 ERROR: Non-canonical signature: R value negative
1785 2013-04-18 19:47:46 <jgarzik> 2013-04-18 19:25:07 ERROR: CScriptCheck() : 49084037e41da4e43d90a12af52b452663ae06ff865b5b416c00ba7ebf4cd0c4 VerifySignature failed
1786 2013-04-18 19:47:46 <jgarzik> 2013-04-18 19:25:07 ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : ConnectInputs failed 49084037e41da4e43d90a12af52b452663ae06ff865b5b416c00ba7ebf4cd0c4
1787 2013-04-18 19:47:47 <jgarzik> 2013-04-18 19:25:07 Misbehaving: 213.189.52.53:8333 (0 -> 100) DISCONNECTING
1788 2013-04-18 19:47:51 <jgarzik> sipa: ^
1789 2013-04-18 19:47:56 <jgarzik> just a single data point, but fun to watch
1790 2013-04-18 19:48:33 <gmaxwell> JyZyXEL: If the time between blocks falls below the time it takes for blocks to propagate the network starts taking longer and longer to converge.
1791 2013-04-18 19:49:09 <gmaxwell> JyZyXEL: the exact value was just a compromise guess in a range of sane looking values, but the general need is obvious enough.
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1793 2013-04-18 19:49:41 <sipa> jgarzik: oh!
1794 2013-04-18 19:49:48 <sipa> jgarzik: that shouldn't trigger DoS
1795 2013-04-18 19:50:12 <gmaxwell> Wonder why I haven't seen that. Odd.
1796 2013-04-18 19:50:21 amantonop has joined
1797 2013-04-18 19:50:23 <gmaxwell> oh, because my code is lagged. :)
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1800 2013-04-18 19:53:00 <phantomcircuit> sipa, connect inputs failing does that
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1803 2013-04-18 19:54:01 <JyZyXEL> i wonder if 10 minutes is enough if we ever had bitcoin nodes running on another planets like the moon or mars ;)
1804 2013-04-18 19:54:27 <lianj> great argument
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1806 2013-04-18 19:54:56 <petertodd> JyZyXEL: easy answere, off-chain transactions can be used for off-planet transactions
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1808 2013-04-18 19:55:39 <sipa> phantomcircuit: yes, but non-DER encodings shouldn'
1809 2013-04-18 19:55:46 <sipa> not yet, at least
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1814 2013-04-18 19:57:07 <gmaxwell> JyZyXEL: its fine for the moon, but the blockchain itself has to be earth local. Presumably mars would have its own blockchain— probably makes the most sense for political reasons in any case.
1815 2013-04-18 19:57:20 <JyZyXEL> :)
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1896 2013-04-18 21:10:35 <gmaxwell> sipa: RE: 2540  Looks like if SCRIPT_VERIFY_STRICTENC isn't set there it will no longer return.
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1899 2013-04-18 21:11:12 <sipa> gmaxwell: wow, thanks for catching that
1900 2013-04-18 21:11:19 eklass has joined
1901 2013-04-18 21:11:23 <gmaxwell> yea, please do not break the blockchain. :P
1902 2013-04-18 21:11:32 <gmaxwell> hurray, review works. :P
1903 2013-04-18 21:13:28 santoscork has joined
1904 2013-04-18 21:13:43 <sipa> fixed!
1905 2013-04-18 21:13:54 SwapperMall has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1906 2013-04-18 21:14:09 <santoscork> Hi sips, could you help me understand something about mashes please?
1907 2013-04-18 21:14:56 intense has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1908 2013-04-18 21:15:08 <sipa> what is a mash?
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1910 2013-04-18 21:15:26 <santoscork> I am using diablominer and it report a consistent mash of 166.8 but on bootlickers.com dashboard the speedometer reports 41 MHs avg for the last 5 minutes
1911 2013-04-18 21:15:32 <gmaxwell> sipa: I wonder why that didn't get caught by the pulltester?
1912 2013-04-18 21:15:35 <santoscork> *mhash
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1915 2013-04-18 21:15:54 <sipa> gmaxwell: because that code is only used for the mempool, when in multithreaded mode
1916 2013-04-18 21:16:20 <santoscork> oh, what is mempool? never heard of it.
1917 2013-04-18 21:16:34 <sipa> santoscork: wait longer
1918 2013-04-18 21:16:39 <gmaxwell> sipa: Ah. Not as bad as I feared it was.
1919 2013-04-18 21:16:41 <sipa> santoscork: and ask in #bitcoin-mining
1920 2013-04-18 21:16:58 <sipa> gmaxwell: with -par=1 it may have been
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1922 2013-04-18 21:17:08 <santoscork> ok I will ask there. thanks sips!
1923 2013-04-18 21:17:15 <santoscork> thanks sipa
1924 2013-04-18 21:17:24 <sipa> also, i seriously doubt the site is called bootlickers
1925 2013-04-18 21:18:30 Gateway69 has joined
1926 2013-04-18 21:18:53 <Gateway69> anyone know of a bitcoin php api thats avail?
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1938 2013-04-18 21:29:34 <gavon> Get your dreamgirl to do everything for you on a live private webcam show for BTC  http://www.strip4bit.com/affiliates/save/18eoGTFJVar9fnQjBRqrrJRxEXCcyD4287
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1945 2013-04-18 21:31:21 <santoscork> sips, indeed, it is called bitclockers.com not bot. sorry about that …
1946 2013-04-18 21:31:37 <santoscork> sipa, indeed, it is called bitclockers.com not bot. sorry about that …
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1955 2013-04-18 21:37:34 <vrs> is there a page which lists bitcoin relatives? meaning, realized and unrealized altcoins and generally a list of points where you can swap out components
1956 2013-04-18 21:37:55 <vrs> proof of work, proof of stake, proof of activity, stuff like on gmaxwell's idea page
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1960 2013-04-18 21:40:20 <gmaxwell> vrs: there is an altcoin list but basically none of those avenues are being explored. (PPcoin has proof of stake, but doesn't currently use it for security)
1961 2013-04-18 21:40:44 <vrs> I have the mc2 thread open but haven't read it yet
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1991 2013-04-18 22:00:26 <neo2> Is Zerocoin integration a likely possibility?
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1999 2013-04-18 22:07:51 <BlueMatt> no
2000 2013-04-18 22:08:11 <BlueMatt> they even stated that in their blog post
2001 2013-04-18 22:10:16 <Luke-Jr> neo2: it's a proof-of-concept, but not viable (yet?)
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2003 2013-04-18 22:11:10 <neo2> Luke-Jr, it's the most vital piece in the puzzle, cash is way more anonymous than btc right now
2004 2013-04-18 22:11:10 <BlueMatt> neo2: read the section under "When will Zerocoin be available?" http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2013/04/zerocoin-making-bitcoin-anonymous.html
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2006 2013-04-18 22:11:29 <BlueMatt> most importantly "Our current zero-knowledge proof averages around 40KB, and take nearly two seconds to verify.'
2007 2013-04-18 22:11:43 <neo2> BlueMatt, ty. I'm busy watching the mtgox graph going vertically right now...
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2013 2013-04-18 22:16:50 <Luke-Jr> neo2: I don't think anybody here cares about anonymity
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2016 2013-04-18 22:19:23 <neo2> Luke-Jr, so maybe in your country there are no draconian capital laws.
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2020 2013-04-18 22:20:07 <neo2> Luke-Jr, if not anonymity then at least some privacy is a desired quality in a currency
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2022 2013-04-18 22:21:04 <deadweasel> what is the bitcoin-shutoff process?
2023 2013-04-18 22:21:11 <deadweasel> and why does it remain?
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2025 2013-04-18 22:22:05 <sipa> deadweasel: it's supposed to clean things up at shutdown, and then exit
2026 2013-04-18 22:22:42 <skinnkavaj> sipa: have you ever thought about a coin that provides bandwitdh?
2027 2013-04-18 22:22:56 <sipa> seems pointless
2028 2013-04-18 22:23:08 <skinnkavaj> why?
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2030 2013-04-18 22:23:20 <sipa> the market should determine the price of bandwidth, not a set of mathematical rules
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2033 2013-04-18 22:23:45 <sipa> bitcoin's rules guarantee no inflation, no double spending and no theft without private keys
2034 2013-04-18 22:23:50 <gmaxwell> neo2: Did you come here to ask a question or to argue?
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2036 2013-04-18 22:24:06 <sipa> there's no need for such properties for consumables
2037 2013-04-18 22:24:09 <skinnkavaj> sipa: piratebay will be taken down in the future
2038 2013-04-18 22:24:13 <skinnkavaj> and when that happens
2039 2013-04-18 22:24:17 <skinnkavaj> people are going to tor
2040 2013-04-18 22:24:20 <sipa> a new one will arise?
2041 2013-04-18 22:24:21 <skinnkavaj> setting up more nodes
2042 2013-04-18 22:24:25 <sipa> great
2043 2013-04-18 22:24:34 <skinnkavaj> so why not have a coin for it?
2044 2013-04-18 22:24:43 <sipa> why doesn't bitcoin suffice for that?
2045 2013-04-18 22:25:06 <deadweasel> sipa could armory be holding it open?  it's my last bitcoin-qt process...
2046 2013-04-18 22:25:15 <skinnkavaj> do you think it could be built in to bitcoin source code?
2047 2013-04-18 22:25:23 <sipa> skinnkavaj: i don't see the point
2048 2013-04-18 22:25:26 mappum has joined
2049 2013-04-18 22:25:29 <sipa> you want internet, you pay for it
2050 2013-04-18 22:25:40 <sipa> how is that different from any other thing you pay for?
2051 2013-04-18 22:25:48 <sipa> deadweasel: perhaps
2052 2013-04-18 22:25:57 <deadweasel> nope, i just had to kill -9 it
2053 2013-04-18 22:26:16 <sipa> that isn't supposed to happe
2054 2013-04-18 22:26:17 <sipa> n
2055 2013-04-18 22:26:18 <skinnkavaj> its not that i don't want to pay for it, its more like i want to be able to share files anonymously, and that is not possible with tor because the lack of tor exit nodes
2056 2013-04-18 22:26:19 <deadweasel> -15 iddn't work
2057 2013-04-18 22:26:22 spooky has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2058 2013-04-18 22:26:30 <deadweasel> i'll keep an eye on it and report back.  thanks sipa
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2060 2013-04-18 22:27:01 <sipa> skinnkavaj: so you want something that isn't very available, and you want to pay for it, electronically and privately
2061 2013-04-18 22:27:05 <BlueMatt> skinnkavaj: maybe making your question/request/whatever more specific would make it more clear what you even want this coin for
2062 2013-04-18 22:27:15 <sipa> skinnkavaj: sounds exactly like a niche for bitcoin
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2065 2013-04-18 22:27:51 <skinnkavaj> sipa: i really don't care if the name is bbqcoin or bitcoin, the question is.. is it possible to add bandwidth and create our own internet
2066 2013-04-18 22:27:53 <skinnkavaj> with bitcoin?
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2069 2013-04-18 22:28:09 <BlueMatt> add bandwidth? you mean pay people to run tor exit nodes?
2070 2013-04-18 22:28:10 <sipa> skinnkavaj: that's like asking whether you can buy apples with dollars
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2073 2013-04-18 22:28:23 <sipa> skinnkavaj: answer is no, only pears
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2085 2013-04-18 22:29:43 <skinnkavaj> sipa, BlueMatt: my point is that tor exit nodes is lacking so much bandwidth, so i can't share files with more speed like 20kb/s in the tor network because there is not enough tor exit nodes.. with bitcoin or whatever cryptocurrency really, people have an incentive to share bandwidth
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2087 2013-04-18 22:30:09 <sipa> skinnkavaj: sounds like a great businessmodel
2088 2013-04-18 22:30:15 <sipa> but i have no clue what you're asking _me_ for
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2090 2013-04-18 22:30:27 <BlueMatt> skinnkavaj: umm... no they dont, unless you are talking about paying people to run tor exit nodes, in which case, see sipa's answers
2091 2013-04-18 22:30:33 <BlueMatt> sipa: because youre _the_ sipa!
2092 2013-04-18 22:30:36 e-dard has joined
2093 2013-04-18 22:31:22 <skinnkavaj> BlueWall: yeah it becomes that
2094 2013-04-18 22:31:39 <skinnkavaj> people are getting paid to share bandwidth
2095 2013-04-18 22:31:50 <BlueMatt> no they arent
2096 2013-04-18 22:31:55 <skinnkavaj> and thats just good, because i'm pretty sure we all here like to share files
2097 2013-04-18 22:32:01 <BlueMatt> who is getting paid by who to share bandwidth
2098 2013-04-18 22:32:11 <BlueMatt> or is it whom?
2099 2013-04-18 22:32:35 alexwaters1 has joined
2100 2013-04-18 22:33:21 <skinnkavaj> i want to integrate sharing bandwidth in the bitcoin protocol
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2102 2013-04-18 22:33:25 <phantomcircuit> skinnkavaj, there is no way to enforce payment for bandwidth at exit nodes in the current tor network design
2103 2013-04-18 22:33:28 <skinnkavaj> so we can have a free and open internet
2104 2013-04-18 22:33:49 <skinnkavaj> and people get paid to run it
2105 2013-04-18 22:33:49 <phantomcircuit> you could of course propose an extension to the protocol but i suspect you would just get laughed at
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2108 2013-04-18 22:34:32 <skinnkavaj> phantomcircuit: why would i be that?
2109 2013-04-18 22:34:33 <BlueMatt> skinnkavaj: great, so go code it (and use bitcoin, but why are you talking about building it into bitcoin, that doesnt really make sense)
2110 2013-04-18 22:35:12 <sipa> skinnkavaj: that's like saying you want to integrate facebook in the http protocol
2111 2013-04-18 22:35:25 <skinnkavaj> i'm asking if its possible
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2113 2013-04-18 22:35:31 <skinnkavaj> thats the only thing i want to know
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2115 2013-04-18 22:35:39 <sipa> i don't think you know what you ask
2116 2013-04-18 22:35:45 <sipa> it makes no sense
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2118 2013-04-18 22:36:11 <sipa> if you want to pay for something, use bitcoin - it needs no special support for special things to be paid
2119 2013-04-18 22:36:43 <skinnkavaj> sipa: so in order to solve a block, you have to provide atleast ex. 1 kb/s and not just CPU/GPU power
2120 2013-04-18 22:36:48 <ubias> I think he means turning bitcoin into a version of tor but people get paid for the bandwiitfh
2121 2013-04-18 22:36:57 <ubias> they share
2122 2013-04-18 22:37:01 <BlueMatt> no, that is not possible
2123 2013-04-18 22:37:03 <sipa> skinnkavaj: that wouldn't be bitcoin anymore, and it makes even less sense
2124 2013-04-18 22:37:13 <sipa> skinnkavaj: as it's not verifiable
2125 2013-04-18 22:37:39 <skinnkavaj> so it is not possible to verify it some way?
2126 2013-04-18 22:37:45 <sipa> no
2127 2013-04-18 22:38:16 <sipa> also, hardcoding the bandwidth "conversion rate" is flawed: it should be set by the individuals whose bandwidth you're using, not the currency
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2143 2013-04-18 22:47:52 <skinnkavaj> sipa: alright, blockchain.info really bad site.. is there any other way to listen to the network?
2144 2013-04-18 22:48:04 <sipa> run bitcoind?
2145 2013-04-18 22:48:39 <skinnkavaj> sipa: what skills do you need to do that?
2146 2013-04-18 22:48:40 <jspilman> stethoscope?
2147 2013-04-18 22:48:59 <sipa> skinnkavaj: perhaps you need the ability to type
2148 2013-04-18 22:49:08 <sipa> and to turn on a computer
2149 2013-04-18 22:49:30 <joe_k> nunchuck skills
2150 2013-04-18 22:49:34 <joe_k> bo-staff skills
2151 2013-04-18 22:49:48 <denisx> try http://blockexplorer.com
2152 2013-04-18 22:49:49 <denisx> ;)
2153 2013-04-18 22:50:26 <jspilman> what's wrong with blockchain.info -- it's about everything you could ask for in a blockchain web app
2154 2013-04-18 22:50:43 <skinnkavaj> jspilman: its just that its unreliable
2155 2013-04-18 22:50:46 <skinnkavaj> and i don't know why
2156 2013-04-18 22:50:49 <sipa> and centralized
2157 2013-04-18 22:50:52 <sipa> and often wrong
2158 2013-04-18 22:51:09 <jspilman> that's the 'web app' part, yes? :-)
2159 2013-04-18 22:51:09 <skinnkavaj> denisx: do you know if blockexplorer is more reliable than blockchain.info?
2160 2013-04-18 22:51:10 <denisx> and sometimes not uptodate
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2162 2013-04-18 22:51:30 <skinnkavaj> i mean blockchain can take like 30-45 minutes in order for it to show the next block
2163 2013-04-18 22:51:32 <denisx> skinnkavaj: I dont know, but if you want actual data use bitcoind
2164 2013-04-18 22:51:33 <skinnkavaj> it happens often
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2166 2013-04-18 22:51:39 <sipa> skinnkavaj: oh, you wanted to listen to the bitcoin network?
2167 2013-04-18 22:51:43 <sipa> skinnkavaj: http://www.listentobitcoin.com/
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2169 2013-04-18 22:52:10 <jspilman> I'm writing some signing / sighash unit tests -- I'm looking for a bunch of different rawtransactions with associated privkeys to test signing, I see tx_valid.json, but that's not quite it... is there anything out there like this?
2170 2013-04-18 22:52:15 <skinnkavaj> sipa: i need to integrate it to a site and be able to se all history
2171 2013-04-18 22:52:26 <skinnkavaj> but listentobitcoin.com don't show history
2172 2013-04-18 22:52:31 <skinnkavaj> blockchain.info unreilabile
2173 2013-04-18 22:52:44 <sipa> what kind of site?
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2175 2013-04-18 22:54:59 <jspilman> you could use the new bitcoind command line option to notify you on new blocks
2176 2013-04-18 22:55:13 <sipa> new?
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2178 2013-04-18 22:56:08 <jspilman> sorry, zmq is new, blocknotify is a year old
2179 2013-04-18 22:56:56 <sipa> yeah, zmq is a technically much nicer solution than all those -*notify commands
2180 2013-04-18 22:57:25 <gmaxwell> ZMQ's lack of authentication is kinda a bummer, still a lot nicer than the forkers.
2181 2013-04-18 22:58:32 ie6 has joined
2182 2013-04-18 22:59:05 <jspilman> it's only bound to 127.0.0.1 right? is the concern dns rebinding?
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2184 2013-04-18 22:59:43 <santoscork> sipa: I went to the minig channel as you suggest about 45 min ago. No one even bit my question. Would be so kind to consider my question please. In the meantime I was helping people there…I would appreciate it.
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2187 2013-04-18 23:00:12 <sipa> santoscork: i told you, wait longer
2188 2013-04-18 23:00:28 <sipa> if that doesn't work, complain to the author of your miner
2189 2013-04-18 23:00:34 <jspilman> a password stored in cleartext in a config file on the local drive - what attacks does that stop for a service bound to 127.0.0.1?
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2192 2013-04-18 23:00:48 <santoscork> sipa: understood, thanks
2193 2013-04-18 23:01:34 <forrestv> jspilman, you could have permissions set on the config file so other users can't read it
2194 2013-04-18 23:01:34 <jspilman> gotta go make cookies with the kids, ttyl
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2196 2013-04-18 23:03:14 <jspilman> true
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2220 2013-04-18 23:26:29 <kadoban> in the gettransaction result, what is 'time' and 'timereceived'? why do both exist? the transaction itself doesn't encode anything about when it was created or anything, right? so shouldn't all my node know about time be when it got a copy?
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2232 2013-04-18 23:30:38 <gaantr2> I am using bitcoin-j to build a bitcoin related application (duh) I have noticed that the when the program terminates that when the program restarts I am getting a throw new BlockStoreException("Could not lock file"); exception and I am wondering how to recover from this.
2233 2013-04-18 23:31:20 <gaantr2> If I delete the .wallet and .blockchain files and restart the program it works fine.
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2235 2013-04-18 23:31:49 <gaantr2> unfortuantely I can't delete the wallet and blockchain because my keyring is in the wallet, among other things.
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2238 2013-04-18 23:32:25 <gaantr2> Does anyone know what could be going on?
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