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  22 2013-04-19 00:15:47 <ubias> gaantr2, delete lock file for it ?
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 123 2013-04-19 01:35:22 <helo> western union using bitcoin as an intermediary would basically be offloading transactions from the blockchain and into fiat...
 124 2013-04-19 01:38:09 <helo> me gusta :D
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 196 2013-04-19 02:41:41 <xavier23> Anyone know how to unlock bitcoinica source code?
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 198 2013-04-19 02:42:52 <xavier23> ?
 199 2013-04-19 02:43:53 <xavier23> Jeez its quiet in here...
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 204 2013-04-19 02:47:34 <jgarzik_> neat
 205 2013-04-19 02:47:37 <turboroot> xavier23: that question doesnt make sense
 206 2013-04-19 02:47:37 jgarzik_ is now known as jgarzik
 207 2013-04-19 02:47:47 <jgarzik> never looked at the original mining code before
 208 2013-04-19 02:48:06 <jgarzik> looks like Sergio is right...  extraNonce is set to zero at miner startup, and never reset
 209 2013-04-19 02:48:21 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: or is there a flaw I'm missing?
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 215 2013-04-19 02:57:22 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: ?
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 218 2013-04-19 02:58:20 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178629.0
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 221 2013-04-19 02:58:34 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: it's reset every block.
 222 2013-04-19 02:59:10 <gmaxwell> I even quoted the exact code that did it— though you must have missed that because he made many threads.
 223 2013-04-19 02:59:35 <gmaxwell> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178751.msg1863199#msg1863199
 224 2013-04-19 03:00:57 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: That's not true for the code in the first available git commit, 4405b78d6059e536c36974088a8ed4d9f0f29898
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 226 2013-04-19 03:01:17 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: it's zeroed at the start of the thread, and then incremented.  those are the only two references.
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 232 2013-04-19 03:02:17 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: yea, the original code did that, you're not missing anything there.
 233 2013-04-19 03:02:19 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: Thus, the analysis seems correct for early satoshi versions, circa 2009
 234 2013-04-19 03:02:27 <gmaxwell> (I thought everyone already knew this)
 235 2013-04-19 03:02:31 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: which is where the graph seemed to focus
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 237 2013-04-19 03:03:59 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: I don't see how he "contradicts everything gmaxwell and deathandtaxes said", but that does not invalid his blog's graph.
 238 2013-04-19 03:04:13 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: He's been editing his messages, what I was disagreeing with was what he originally argued, I have no idea what it said now. His post originally said that because Satoshi had a hashrate of 14 MH (a number he got from some mumbojumbo on the first block) that 100% of the bitcoin created in the first year was created by satoshi, and therefor all of the unspent funds are satoshi's.
 239 2013-04-19 03:04:28 <JWU42> is HEAD the lower mem usage that sipa had left marked as 80000 ?
 240 2013-04-19 03:04:35 <JWU42>  "version" : 80199,
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 242 2013-04-19 03:05:00 <jgarzik> JWU42: yes, git HEAD has the memory usage improvements.
 243 2013-04-19 03:05:06 <gmaxwell> The stuff on his blog— in contrast to his arguments— seem to suggest that satoshi only mined half that year, and stopped around the point the hashrate dipped in sipa's hashrate graps.
 244 2013-04-19 03:05:22 <JWU42> jgarzik: thks - thought this has all the warnings on it ;)
 245 2013-04-19 03:05:24 <gmaxwell> s/graps/graphs/
 246 2013-04-19 03:05:40 <JWU42> jgarzik: mem improvements are awesome - 98 connects and < 330M
 247 2013-04-19 03:05:48 <jgarzik> JWU42: yes, standard It-Has-Not-Yet-Seen-Wide-Testing warnings, for building from git HEAD
 248 2013-04-19 03:05:52 <jgarzik> JWU42: yep :)
 249 2013-04-19 03:06:11 <JWU42> just adding a few more nodes for now
 250 2013-04-19 03:06:19 <JWU42> not mining on this one so no worries
 251 2013-04-19 03:06:41 <JWU42> and had not seen the warning before even when grabbing from HEAD
 252 2013-04-19 03:06:57 <jgarzik> Very little memory usage per node, now.  I think my bitcoind runs around ~250M RSS for a single P2P connection, maybe ~290M RSS for 8 connections.  My public nodes are beaten heavily, and they do not top 400M RSS
 253 2013-04-19 03:07:26 * JWU42 uses atleast one of your nodes
 254 2013-04-19 03:07:41 <jgarzik> us2.exmulti.net: 398M RSS, 100 connections
 255 2013-04-19 03:08:05 <jgarzik> eu3.exmulti.net: 402M RSS, 100 connections
 256 2013-04-19 03:08:06 <JWU42> yep
 257 2013-04-19 03:08:16 <JWU42> use the US
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 289 2013-04-19 03:42:30 <Braden`> Hello
 290 2013-04-19 03:42:54 <Braden`> Does anyone know if there is a plugin for MetaTrader 4 to make it work with bitcoins?
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 311 2013-04-19 04:08:22 <savantguy> anyone up?
 312 2013-04-19 04:08:30 <lianj> just ask
 313 2013-04-19 04:08:58 <savantguy> anyone have experience with slush stratum mining proxy?
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 318 2013-04-19 04:10:52 <lianj> savantguy: ask your question and wait
 319 2013-04-19 04:12:29 <savantguy> ok
 320 2013-04-19 04:13:07 <savantguy> looking for anyone who knows how to increase the connected clients limit in stratum mining proxy. I think its on line 94 in https://github.com/slush0/stratum-mining-proxy/blob/master/mining_libs/stratum_listener.py
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 339 2013-04-19 04:46:14 <praveen____> HI
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 364 2013-04-19 05:08:25 <K1773R> Luke-Jr: i should remember you to check ur qry, missed it? if so i did also send it as PM on BTCTalk...
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 375 2013-04-19 05:19:53 ypSami has joined
 376 2013-04-19 05:20:21 <ypSami> Hello. Is there some hidden url for Mt.Gox's API that lets you get a listing of all supported markets/currency pairs that any of you know of?
 377 2013-04-19 05:21:05 <Guest58584> I am trying on Testnet on my Miner
 378 2013-04-19 05:21:15 <Guest58584> You now the "http://localhost:18332/" :D
 379 2013-04-19 05:21:35 <sivu> ypSami: try #mtgox
 380 2013-04-19 05:21:43 <Guest58584> The difficulty is supposed to be "lower", so I am doing to test my "send" to see if everything checks out.
 381 2013-04-19 05:21:50 <ypSami> sivu: I did. No response. Trying elsewhere.
 382 2013-04-19 05:21:51 <Guest58584> Then it occured to me...
 383 2013-04-19 05:22:23 <Guest58584> How can it be lower ? You STILL have to increment the Nonce 1 by 1 to the limit of 4294967295.
 384 2013-04-19 05:23:23 <Guest58584> Unless the target "guarantee" that you will reach the target WAY before the nonce increment reach even half of 4294967295.
 385 2013-04-19 05:23:38 <sivu> Guest58584: hash with fewer zeros is accepted when difficulty is lower
 386 2013-04-19 05:24:21 <sivu> nonce by itself is not enough to change the hash enough to get to the right solution
 387 2013-04-19 05:24:22 <Guest58584> That assumes we can "predict" the outcome of SHA256 no ?
 388 2013-04-19 05:24:42 <Guest58584> Nonce is not enough ?
 389 2013-04-19 05:24:45 <Guest58584> But that is all I do.
 390 2013-04-19 05:25:08 <Guest58584> I keep on changing the Nonce [++] and Hash the whole thing over and over again to compare.
 391 2013-04-19 05:25:14 <Guest58584> I do nothing else.
 392 2013-04-19 05:25:21 <Guest58584> Is there something else I should also do ?
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 396 2013-04-19 05:26:24 <sivu> if you check 1ghash/s you are overflowing the nonce in 4 seconds
 397 2013-04-19 05:26:48 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
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 399 2013-04-19 05:26:57 <Guest58584> I am checking 24.22KH/S
 400 2013-04-19 05:27:26 <Guest58584> That is why I am using TestNet
 401 2013-04-19 05:27:45 <Guest58584> I would checking 24.22KH/S using TestNet means I wouldn't have to take days to find out.
 402 2013-04-19 05:28:09 <jgarzik> <sivu> nonce by itself is not enough to change the hash enough to get to the right solution
 403 2013-04-19 05:28:14 <jgarzik> sivu: that is not correct
 404 2013-04-19 05:28:43 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
 405 2013-04-19 05:28:49 <jgarzik> sivu: nonce is used to stir the hash.  nonce gives you 4 billion possibilities to stir the hash, any one of which may result in the target hash value
 406 2013-04-19 05:29:23 <jgarzik> sivu: other factors are also used to stir the hash in ASIC miners and some GPU miners, because they run through 4 billion possibilities very quickly
 407 2013-04-19 05:29:33 <sivu> ah yes. i meant that four bytes of difference on the input is not enough to cover the full range of sha256
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 411 2013-04-19 05:30:24 <Guest58584> But...what "other" possibilities could you "admend" ?
 412 2013-04-19 05:30:36 <gecko_x2> hi
 413 2013-04-19 05:30:42 <Guest58584> I thought everything else from the Source Data have to keep its Data Integrity ?
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 416 2013-04-19 05:31:31 <gecko_x2> what is it with bitcoin-qt and syncing, i've deleted the blockchain several times, and as it downloads it it never finishes, just gets stuck at some point and stays there
 417 2013-04-19 05:31:36 <sivu> Guest58584: if i remember correctly, the miners change the generation transaction. that changes the merkle root
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 421 2013-04-19 05:31:59 <Luke-Jr> gecko_x2: what version? why do you assume it's stuck?
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 423 2013-04-19 05:32:19 <gecko_x2> 0.8.1
 424 2013-04-19 05:32:27 <gecko_x2> because it's not moving for days
 425 2013-04-19 05:32:31 kantlivelong has joined
 426 2013-04-19 05:32:33 <gecko_x2> out of sync
 427 2013-04-19 05:32:35 <Luke-Jr> gecko_x2: is it stuck now?
 428 2013-04-19 05:32:38 <gecko_x2> yes
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 430 2013-04-19 05:33:16 <Luke-Jr> gecko_x2: upload your debug.log somewhere
 431 2013-04-19 05:33:37 <gecko_x2> hmm ok
 432 2013-04-19 05:33:46 <gecko_x2> you got any suggestions where..
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 441 2013-04-19 05:35:17 <Guest58584__> Because it will be nightmarish to Increment the Nonce to 4294967295 running on 24.15Kh/S
 442 2013-04-19 05:35:28 <Guest58584__> I was hoping Testnet could allow me to test faster
 443 2013-04-19 05:35:42 <gecko_x2> Luke-Jr http://pastebin.com/ercRmkKb
 444 2013-04-19 05:35:54 <Guest58584__> I was hoping I don't have to increment the nonce all the way close to 4294967295 to find the correct solution.
 445 2013-04-19 05:36:46 <Luke-Jr> gecko_x2: that's only part of it
 446 2013-04-19 05:36:56 <Guest58584__> I now wonder how long would it take to know if my codes are correct running on 24 KH/S.
 447 2013-04-19 05:37:09 <Luke-Jr> Guest58584__: there might not even be a solution at all in that job
 448 2013-04-19 05:38:15 Guest58584_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 449 2013-04-19 05:38:31 <gecko_x2> Luke-Jr no should be all, 9000 some lines
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 453 2013-04-19 05:40:38 <GuestWhatever> And...the only way to know is to run through the entire 4294967295 nonce increment....
 454 2013-04-19 05:40:43 <GuestWhatever> wow....
 455 2013-04-19 05:40:48 <GuestWhatever> So Testnet "merely" makes it easier to match the "lesser than target" thingy.
 456 2013-04-19 05:40:53 <GuestWhatever> But doesn't make the nonce incrementation period easier by cutting say...the nonce incremental limit to lower than 4294967295 to find the solution.
 457 2013-04-19 05:40:57 <GuestWhatever> That sucks :(
 458 2013-04-19 05:41:10 Guest58584__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 459 2013-04-19 05:41:17 <gecko_x2> Luke-Jr any ideas?
 460 2013-04-19 05:41:49 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 461 2013-04-19 05:41:54 <Luke-Jr> GuestWhatever: you don't know what you're talking about
 462 2013-04-19 05:42:21 robbak has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 463 2013-04-19 05:42:21 i2pRelay has joined
 464 2013-04-19 05:42:38 GuestWhatever_ has joined
 465 2013-04-19 05:42:52 <GuestWhatever_> And Here I am living in the delusion that every getwork() will HAVE a solution.
 466 2013-04-19 05:42:55 robbak has joined
 467 2013-04-19 05:43:41 <Luke-Jr> GuestWhatever_: testnet getworks will have solutions more often
 468 2013-04-19 05:43:57 <GuestWhatever_> Now I know that EVEN if I am running TestNet, the ONLY thing it does is lowering the Target but it DOESN'T Gurantee that the Nonce will have an easier time.
 469 2013-04-19 05:44:29 <GuestWhatever_> How will "TestNet" generate stuff with more solution more often ? It "Pre-Calculate" it ?
 470 2013-04-19 05:44:35 <GuestWhatever_> Anyway Luke-Jr
 471 2013-04-19 05:44:42 <GuestWhatever_> It is an Honor Talking to you.
 472 2013-04-19 05:44:55 <GuestWhatever_> You are like the Super Star of the Bitcoin World.
 473 2013-04-19 05:45:08 <Luke-Jr> GuestWhatever_: the target is what determines if it's a solution
 474 2013-04-19 05:45:20 GuestWhatever has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 475 2013-04-19 05:46:02 <GuestWhatever_> :)
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 478 2013-04-19 05:47:11 <gecko_x2> ....
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 480 2013-04-19 05:49:46 <gecko_x2> right.
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 487 2013-04-19 05:52:02 dr0ne_ has joined
 488 2013-04-19 05:52:13 <dr0ne_> Hey guys. There seems to be a java exploit.
 489 2013-04-19 05:52:25 <dr0ne_> My wallet was hacked/emptied. Bitcoin-qt wallet.
 490 2013-04-19 05:52:36 <dr0ne_> Lost my whole bitfold, 2.07 BTC
 491 2013-04-19 05:52:54 <dr0ne_> I can link to the exploit site, but I would warn you not to go there unless you're in a virtual machine.
 492 2013-04-19 05:53:16 <_dr> oh wow, that sounds bad
 493 2013-04-19 05:53:24 <cyphase> is it the mtgox chat site?
 494 2013-04-19 05:53:37 <dr0ne_> Something like that.
 495 2013-04-19 05:53:38 <_dr> cyphase: no, try #mtgox
 496 2013-04-19 05:53:50 <cyphase> _dr, i mean the exploit
 497 2013-04-19 05:53:56 <dr0ne_> cyphase
 498 2013-04-19 05:53:58 <jspilman> there are definitely java exploits in the wild - you should disable java plugin in your browser, or consider uninstall java completely
 499 2013-04-19 05:54:00 <dr0ne_> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1cnroc/my_wallet_just_got_hacked/
 500 2013-04-19 05:54:14 <dr0ne_> site is "CoinChat.freetzi.com"
 501 2013-04-19 05:54:30 GuestWhatever_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 502 2013-04-19 05:54:34 <dr0ne_> Well I mean, fuck.
 503 2013-04-19 05:54:40 <dr0ne_> I thought bitcoin was safe.
 504 2013-04-19 05:54:52 <Luke-Jr> where'd you get that idea?
 505 2013-04-19 05:54:56 <dr0ne_> I did not enter my password at all, I simply opened bitcoin-qt and my bitcoins were gone.
 506 2013-04-19 05:55:10 <jspilman> it has nothing to do with bitcoin -- you basically just invited a stranger over to your keyboard and left the room
 507 2013-04-19 05:55:21 <_dr> dr0ne_: you wallet was encrypted?
 508 2013-04-19 05:55:24 <dr0ne_> Yes
 509 2013-04-19 05:55:31 <cyphase> ah, it is a chat site; just like the one claiming to be a live mtgox chat
 510 2013-04-19 05:56:11 <_dr> that seems fishy. how can they send coins without the passwort to your wallet
 511 2013-04-19 05:56:16 <dr0ne_> exactly
 512 2013-04-19 05:56:18 <dr0ne_> fucking exactly
 513 2013-04-19 05:56:30 <cyphase> keylogger?
 514 2013-04-19 05:56:35 <_dr> dr0ne_: did you enter your password at some later time? like when you opened bitcoin-qt
 515 2013-04-19 05:56:37 <dr0ne_> no
 516 2013-04-19 05:56:38 <dr0ne_> I did not
 517 2013-04-19 05:56:43 <gecko_x2> Luke-Jr so... nothing?
 518 2013-04-19 05:56:46 <Luke-Jr> dr0ne_: what is the transaction you didn't approve?
 519 2013-04-19 05:56:50 <dr0ne_> which is why I am like "WTF" over here
 520 2013-04-19 05:56:54 <dr0ne_> it was for 2.07 BTC
 521 2013-04-19 05:56:54 <Luke-Jr> gecko_x2: I didn't see anything meaningful in the log
 522 2013-04-19 05:56:58 <GuestWhatever> What the hell...Solution Found but send Param WRONG!!!
 523 2013-04-19 05:56:59 <dr0ne_> plus the fee
 524 2013-04-19 05:57:02 <gecko_x2> k
 525 2013-04-19 05:57:03 <Luke-Jr> dr0ne_: transaction id
 526 2013-04-19 05:57:06 <GuestWhatever> My Source Data is
 527 2013-04-19 05:57:08 <dr0ne_> 2.07 is pretty much my entire wallet
 528 2013-04-19 05:57:10 <GuestWhatever> 00000002b15704f4ecae05d077e54f6ec36da7f20189ef73b77603225ae56d2b00000000bcf59695a4e35a2f7535e1a86b306a3b08c212bf0b833764018fe39f01919381510c28111c0e8a3700000000000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000.
 529 2013-04-19 05:57:10 <dr0ne_> hold on
 530 2013-04-19 05:57:15 <GuestWhatever> The Correct Send Param is:
 531 2013-04-19 05:57:16 <dr0ne_> i'm afraid to open my wallet again...
 532 2013-04-19 05:57:20 <GuestWhatever> 00000002b15704f4ecae05d077e54f6ec36da7f20189ef73b77603225ae56d2b00000000b052cbbdeed2489ccb13a526b77fadceef4caf7d3bb82a9eb0b69ebb90f9f5a7510c27fd1c0e8a37fa531338000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000
 533 2013-04-19 05:57:22 <dr0ne_> can i link you to it on blockchain?
 534 2013-04-19 05:57:26 <GuestWhatever> The First 73 is the same as the Source Data but then what Voodoo Magic happened that caused the next the 71 characters to change ? I thought we are just suppose to replace the nonce from the source data to the correct nonce[Convert to Hex and Convert to Big Endian] ?
 535 2013-04-19 05:57:52 <Luke-Jr> dr0ne_: the transaction id *is* the link to the blockchain
 536 2013-04-19 05:57:54 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 537 2013-04-19 05:57:57 <jspilman> there was a thread a couple days ago on HackerNews where some guys were decompiling one of the java exploits to see how they worked. They went 4 or 5 layers deep but didn't get to the meat - lots of code getting downloaded from various dropsites, and also not clear that the dropsites were giving the same payloads out to everyone
 538 2013-04-19 05:57:59 <dr0ne_> hold on Luke I'm getting it
 539 2013-04-19 05:58:01 <dr0ne_> it's in the reddit thread
 540 2013-04-19 05:58:16 <dr0ne_> https://blockchain.info/address/1Q6euP4nmfn5EpsCovo1xb5PsjDd86CQwX
 541 2013-04-19 05:58:29 i2pRelay has joined
 542 2013-04-19 06:00:37 <Luke-Jr> dr0ne_: and it took you 75 minutes to notice?
 543 2013-04-19 06:00:46 <jspilman> I wonder if that change address is in dr0ne's local copy of the wallet - would that tell us anything?  I guess wallet.dat has a bunch queued up internally, so it almost certainly is
 544 2013-04-19 06:00:47 <gmaxwell> yea, they hit the irc channels with the java exploit a few times.
 545 2013-04-19 06:00:59 <dr0ne_> No Luke, it took me 75 minutes to get my ass here
 546 2013-04-19 06:01:09 <dr0ne_> I noticed immediately when I opened the bitcoin-qt wallet
 547 2013-04-19 06:02:27 robbak has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 548 2013-04-19 06:02:38 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: you think this sounds possible?
 549 2013-04-19 06:02:46 <gmaxwell> That what sounds plausable?
 550 2013-04-19 06:02:50 <Luke-Jr> dr0ne_: when was the last time you entered your wallet's passphrase?
 551 2013-04-19 06:02:52 robbak has joined
 552 2013-04-19 06:02:58 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: what dr0ne_ is claiming happened
 553 2013-04-19 06:03:05 <dr0ne_> probably on the 16th
 554 2013-04-19 06:03:14 <dr0ne_> Hey, if you don't believe me try the exploit yourself in a VM
 555 2013-04-19 06:03:15 <gmaxwell> dr0ne_: any idea when you hit the java exploit?
 556 2013-04-19 06:03:19 <dr0ne_> tonight
 557 2013-04-19 06:03:22 <dr0ne_> in a 4chan thread
 558 2013-04-19 06:03:26 <dr0ne_> to that link i shared earlier
 559 2013-04-19 06:03:28 <gmaxwell> dr0ne_: what was your wallet passphrase?
 560 2013-04-19 06:03:40 GuestWhatever has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 561 2013-04-19 06:03:42 sud3n has joined
 562 2013-04-19 06:03:43 <dr0ne_> ?
 563 2013-04-19 06:03:45 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: good call
 564 2013-04-19 06:03:45 <dr0ne_> are you serious?
 565 2013-04-19 06:03:48 <dr0ne_> it was complicated
 566 2013-04-19 06:03:51 <Luke-Jr> dr0ne_: it's empty now, right?
 567 2013-04-19 06:04:01 <gmaxwell> dr0ne_: If it's empty now, no harm in giving it out.
 568 2013-04-19 06:04:10 <jspilman> unless it's reused elsewhere
 569 2013-04-19 06:04:12 <dr0ne_> I don't know, I'm afraid to open the client
 570 2013-04-19 06:04:14 <dr0ne_> let me try
 571 2013-04-19 06:04:20 <dr0ne_> I think it's empty now though...
 572 2013-04-19 06:04:29 <gmaxwell> well certantly don't type it in again if its not empty.
 573 2013-04-19 06:04:36 <dr0ne_> afraid to lose the other like .0025 BTC I have
 574 2013-04-19 06:04:39 <jspilman> if you want, make yourself a new wallet on a separate machine and have an address ready to send any balance
 575 2013-04-19 06:04:55 <Luke-Jr> side note: dr0ne_ showed up here 3 minutes after the transaction in question achieved 6 confirms
 576 2013-04-19 06:05:00 <dr0ne_> I have another wallet
 577 2013-04-19 06:05:13 <dr0ne_> Luke I know, it took me a long time to figure out wtf to do
 578 2013-04-19 06:05:14 <jspilman> if someone stole your funds, they have your keys, it's not like opening your wallet again will make it worse
 579 2013-04-19 06:05:18 [Elementum] has joined
 580 2013-04-19 06:05:21 <dr0ne_> I posted that reddit thread right after it happened
 581 2013-04-19 06:05:54 <dr0ne_> and lots of googling + bitcoin irc took me here
 582 2013-04-19 06:05:57 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 583 2013-04-19 06:06:08 <jspilman> the problem is, just because they transfered it out an hour ago, doesn't mean your machine wasn't exploited days ago
 584 2013-04-19 06:06:29 i2pRelay has joined
 585 2013-04-19 06:06:38 <dr0ne_> Well, I doubt that is the case because it happened right after I clicked that link
 586 2013-04-19 06:06:48 <dr0ne_> that would be a crazy coincidence
 587 2013-04-19 06:07:12 <Luke-Jr> dr0ne_: what made you think to check?
 588 2013-04-19 06:07:21 <dr0ne_> Check my BTC wallet?
 589 2013-04-19 06:07:26 <Luke-Jr> yes'
 590 2013-04-19 06:07:46 <jspilman> well keylogger is much more likely than cracking your wallet.dat password (assuming it is decent) but certainly there are tools out there that can do either
 591 2013-04-19 06:08:02 <gmaxwell> dr0ne_: Also, have you imported any keys in your wallet? Or have you exported your bitcoin-qt wallet to e.g. blockchain.info?
 592 2013-04-19 06:08:48 <dr0ne_> I haven't exported it
 593 2013-04-19 06:08:52 * Luke-Jr thanks gmaxwell and jspilman for reminding him why he isn't a security expert :P
 594 2013-04-19 06:09:01 <dr0ne_> I'm sure I don't have a keylogger.
 595 2013-04-19 06:09:05 <dr0ne_> It's the website.
 596 2013-04-19 06:09:09 <dr0ne_> I'm almost positive
 597 2013-04-19 06:09:15 <jspilman> the website would have installed a keylogger, you would never know
 598 2013-04-19 06:09:21 <Luke-Jr> dr0ne_: websites can't do anything normally
 599 2013-04-19 06:09:23 <dr0ne_> Yeah but I didn't enter my password
 600 2013-04-19 06:09:27 <dr0ne_> that's the whole thing
 601 2013-04-19 06:09:28 [Elementum] has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 602 2013-04-19 06:09:31 <dr0ne_> I did not enter my password
 603 2013-04-19 06:09:33 <dr0ne_> which
 604 2013-04-19 06:09:33 jgarzik has joined
 605 2013-04-19 06:09:39 <dr0ne_> since all my BTC is gone anyway
 606 2013-04-19 06:09:39 <dr0ne_> was
 607 2013-04-19 06:09:45 <dr0ne_> H1$T0M@PP$
 608 2013-04-19 06:09:50 BlackPrapor has joined
 609 2013-04-19 06:09:57 jgarzik is now known as Guest14253
 610 2013-04-19 06:10:22 <Luke-Jr> dr0ne_: how do you know your PC wasn't compromised automatically months ago, and the website just collects IPs that they check for wallets manually?
 611 2013-04-19 06:10:51 <dr0ne_> Luke-Jr, I don't - I'm looking for some help here though brother
 612 2013-04-19 06:11:07 <gmaxwell> thats not a very good password. :(
 613 2013-04-19 06:11:11 <dr0ne_> I don't have a VM set up
 614 2013-04-19 06:11:13 <dr0ne_> to check
 615 2013-04-19 06:11:56 <gmaxwell> thought its good enough to reduce the plausablity of instantly cracking it at least.
 616 2013-04-19 06:11:57 <jspilman> might not be my first million guesses, but could be in a 1b word dictionary.  how slow is the KDF again?
 617 2013-04-19 06:13:16 <gmaxwell> jspilman: I have a wordlist here that has histomaps (one P) in it, and the symbol replacement is a standard JTR rule. I'm not sure how long it would take me to hit exactly that word... but the KDF is fairly slow.
 618 2013-04-19 06:13:33 <gmaxwell> (the KDF is 100ms on the machine that created the wallet, or at least 25k iterations of sha512)
 619 2013-04-19 06:13:46 gst has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0)
 620 2013-04-19 06:13:59 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 621 2013-04-19 06:13:59 <gmaxwell> Even assuming a fast dedicated implementation, it's unlikely that they could have cracked that in minutes.
 622 2013-04-19 06:14:11 gst has joined
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 624 2013-04-19 06:14:33 <gmaxwell> dr0ne_: did you use that password for anything else?
 625 2013-04-19 06:14:41 <dr0ne_> gmaxwell: no
 626 2013-04-19 06:14:53 <gmaxwell> dr0ne_: you're running windows?
 627 2013-04-19 06:14:54 <jspilman> yeah, the letter replacement did not buy you much dr0ne - the extra P probably worth more than all those l33t substitutions
 628 2013-04-19 06:14:56 <dr0ne_> Yes
 629 2013-04-19 06:15:12 <gmaxwell> dr0ne_: have you rebooted since the last time you decrypted the wallet?
 630 2013-04-19 06:15:24 <jspilman> which looks like it was 4/16
 631 2013-04-19 06:15:28 <jspilman> or sooner
 632 2013-04-19 06:15:34 <dr0ne_> jspilman: thanks, I'm learning more about password security I guess :| i guess that's worth the 500 i paid for those BTC
 633 2013-04-19 06:15:40 <dr0ne_> yes I have
 634 2013-04-19 06:16:34 <gmaxwell> in any case, it would probably be useful for someone to run a private key scraping tool on your wallet.dat.
 635 2013-04-19 06:16:45 <gmaxwell> I'm not aware of one with a windows binary though
 636 2013-04-19 06:17:02 <dr0ne_> From what I can determine
 637 2013-04-19 06:17:05 <dr0ne_> what happened to me was
 638 2013-04-19 06:17:28 <dr0ne_> Java exploit that the next time I opened my wallet, it took my BTC without requiring a password for the transaction
 639 2013-04-19 06:17:38 <dr0ne_> and sent it to that address
 640 2013-04-19 06:18:23 <jspilman> 1GqehAfWfPFwKHyP1SEJzhMUVEHTiQYYfQ went to the same place a few hours earlier -- 0.266 BTC -- was that yours too?
 641 2013-04-19 06:18:32 <jspilman> or just the 2.07
 642 2013-04-19 06:18:50 <dr0ne_> just the 2.07
 643 2013-04-19 06:19:15 <dr0ne_> this is killing me - i appreciate the help you guys are giving me
 644 2013-04-19 06:19:33 <gmaxwell> 22:45 <@gmaxwell> dr0ne_: Also, have you imported any keys in your wallet?   < you answered that you hadn't exported, but had you imported either?
 645 2013-04-19 06:20:03 <dr0ne_> Nope
 646 2013-04-19 06:20:43 <gmaxwell> Can you send me a copy of the wallet.dat? I want to inspect it for data leaks.
 647 2013-04-19 06:20:53 <dr0ne_> Sure
 648 2013-04-19 06:20:54 <gmaxwell> (see if there was an unencrypted copy of the data in it somehow)
 649 2013-04-19 06:21:00 <gmaxwell> gmaxwell@gmail.com
 650 2013-04-19 06:21:16 Plinker has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 651 2013-04-19 06:21:16 <dr0ne_> Do you want me to send you a backup made now or one I had before this?
 652 2013-04-19 06:21:25 <gmaxwell> the backup you made now is fine.
 653 2013-04-19 06:21:30 <dr0ne_> Okay.
 654 2013-04-19 06:21:34 <Belxjander> dr0ne_: how about marking and sending both backups?
 655 2013-04-19 06:21:40 <Luke-Jr> I don't get why the thief would send him change back, or take a minority of someone else's coins.
 656 2013-04-19 06:21:44 <gmaxwell> yea actually send me all the copies of it you have.
 657 2013-04-19 06:21:57 <jspilman> btw, what version of bitcoin are you running?
 658 2013-04-19 06:22:01 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 659 2013-04-19 06:22:27 <dr0ne_> v 0.8.0 beta
 660 2013-04-19 06:22:31 <gmaxwell> dr0ne_: Also, was your wallet encrypted when you generated the address those coins were sent to?
 661 2013-04-19 06:22:33 i2pRelay has joined
 662 2013-04-19 06:22:55 <dr0ne_> gmaxwell: I don't believe so
 663 2013-04-19 06:23:49 <gmaxwell> okay, then thats probably the issue. If it wasn't encrypted when you generated that address, then there could have been an unecrypted copy of its key left someplace on your computer. (e.g. in an old wallet backup, or in the deleted space on your disk)
 664 2013-04-19 06:23:52 <jspilman> Luke-Jr - yeah, the .266 out of 70 is very strange
 665 2013-04-19 06:23:53 <Luke-Jr> we should make a checklist of these questions <.<
 666 2013-04-19 06:24:30 gst has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0)
 667 2013-04-19 06:24:49 gst has joined
 668 2013-04-19 06:25:49 <gmaxwell> I suspect the attacker imported the stolen keys in a wallet, and then paid a round number to some aggregation wallet. Thus the change.
 669 2013-04-19 06:27:23 <dr0ne_> Hey gmaxwell, I sent you the files via DCC. If they dont' go through I'll send them in a few minutes to your gmail. going to go out for a smoke - incredibly stressed right now.
 670 2013-04-19 06:27:27 <jspilman> the source of the other .266 sent to the same address a few hours earlier has a *lot* of history
 671 2013-04-19 06:27:52 Guest90733 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 672 2013-04-19 06:28:23 <jspilman> you'd think a thief at least would not re-use addresses
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 678 2013-04-19 06:30:19 <gmaxwell> dr0ne_: any idea what date you encrypted the wallet on?
 679 2013-04-19 06:30:37 i2pRelay has joined
 680 2013-04-19 06:33:11 tmsk has joined
 681 2013-04-19 06:33:37 <gmaxwell> Neither of dr0ne_'s backup files appear to contain any unencrypted keys.
 682 2013-04-19 06:34:17 keymone has joined
 683 2013-04-19 06:34:19 <dr0ne_> Not sure
 684 2013-04-19 06:34:53 andyh2 has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
 685 2013-04-19 06:34:53 tmsk has quit (Client Quit)
 686 2013-04-19 06:35:14 tmsk has joined
 687 2013-04-19 06:35:33 <gmaxwell> dr0ne_: like... a day ago, a week ago, a century ago?
 688 2013-04-19 06:35:50 <dr0ne_> Likely about 2-3 weeks ago
 689 2013-04-19 06:36:20 <gmaxwell> ... evoorhees is running adds on reddit  "SatoshiDICE! - Win Bitcoins while stress testing the network"
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 698 2013-04-19 06:39:55 <midnightmagic> >:-/
 699 2013-04-19 06:40:23 MidStateBitch has joined
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 702 2013-04-19 06:42:18 <dr0ne_> Any leads from the backups gmaxwell?
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 706 2013-04-19 06:43:09 <MidStateBitch_> Hi, I am trying to learn how to calculate the MidState of the Source Data.
 707 2013-04-19 06:43:13 <MidStateBitch_> Here is where I am so far:
 708 2013-04-19 06:43:14 <MidStateBitch_> http://pastebin.com/upD33b97
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 710 2013-04-19 06:43:33 Guest14253 has joined
 711 2013-04-19 06:43:37 Guest14253 is now known as jgarzik
 712 2013-04-19 06:43:45 <MidStateBitch_> How many Segments do I have to break the 128Characters into ?
 713 2013-04-19 06:43:54 <jgarzik> huh
 714 2013-04-19 06:44:00 <MidStateBitch_> Before I do the whole Stupid endian shit ?
 715 2013-04-19 06:44:00 <jgarzik> ORSoC gets into the mining game
 716 2013-04-19 06:44:02 <jgarzik> https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-9
 717 2013-04-19 06:44:12 <jgarzik> maybe kncminer isn't a scam after all
 718 2013-04-19 06:44:30 MidStateBitch has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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 720 2013-04-19 06:46:42 <Belxjander> MidStateBitch_: any 16bit or 32bit value that you read has to be reversed
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 726 2013-04-19 06:46:52 <MidStateBitch_> Got it.
 727 2013-04-19 06:46:53 <MidStateBitch_> BUT
 728 2013-04-19 06:46:55 <Belxjander> kncminer?
 729 2013-04-19 06:46:58 <MidStateBitch_> Before reversing takes place.
 730 2013-04-19 06:47:14 <MidStateBitch_> They must be break into their proper segments for the Stupid Endian thing to take place.
 731 2013-04-19 06:47:33 <MidStateBitch_> My question is, how my segments ? Or another word, how many characters in a single Segment ?
 732 2013-04-19 06:48:37 da2ce7-mobile has joined
 733 2013-04-19 06:48:44 <MidStateBitch_> There are 128 Characters, how many chunks do I have to break them down into to start "Reversing" them in their chunks ?
 734 2013-04-19 06:50:18 <MidStateBitch_> ?
 735 2013-04-19 06:50:21 <MidStateBitch_> Anyone ?
 736 2013-04-19 06:52:10 <dr0ne_> Any other input on this exploit?
 737 2013-04-19 06:52:18 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 738 2013-04-19 06:52:25 <dr0ne_> I'm out 2.07 BTC, that's my whole investment
 739 2013-04-19 06:52:39 <jgarzik> Domain Name: SATOSHIDICE.COM
 740 2013-04-19 06:52:39 <jgarzik>  Registration Date: 18-Apr-2012
 741 2013-04-19 06:52:39 <jgarzik>  Expiration Date: 18-Apr-2013
 742 2013-04-19 06:52:39 <jgarzik>  Status:RENEWAL HOLD
 743 2013-04-19 06:52:39 <jgarzik> 	Note: This Domain Name has expired and hence inactive. The Domain Name
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 756 2013-04-19 06:55:21 <MidStateBitch> How many chunks from the first 128 characters do you break your source data into before endian arrangement began for midtstae ?
 757 2013-04-19 06:55:33 * gmaxwell spins up a domain sniping service.
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 761 2013-04-19 06:56:23 <dr0ne_> gmaxwell, any ideas on what happened?
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 775 2013-04-19 06:59:19 <dr0ne_> I suppose no.
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 779 2013-04-19 06:59:59 <gmaxwell> dr0ne_: I'm still looking at it.
 780 2013-04-19 07:00:00 pigeons has joined
 781 2013-04-19 07:00:13 <dr0ne_> Okay.
 782 2013-04-19 07:00:15 <dr0ne_> Thanks gmaxwell.
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 790 2013-04-19 07:00:35 <dr0ne_> I'll read the log tomorrow, PM me if you get anything/need anything else from me. I appreciate you helping me out.
 791 2013-04-19 07:00:39 eataudio has joined
 792 2013-04-19 07:00:41 <dr0ne_> headed to sleep.
 793 2013-04-19 07:01:15 <dr0ne_> Also, hi #bitcoin-dev! I'm out 2.07 BTC from an exploit - 2.00 of it is my dad's and i know he'll be pissed
 794 2013-04-19 07:01:35 Plinker has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 795 2013-04-19 07:01:40 <dr0ne_> If you wanna help me not give my dad a heart attack please feel free to contribute any tiny tiny amount to 1LHXtq7Kf9VcufS4XZAdbod2nHhSMed8XM - trying to recoup my losses
 796 2013-04-19 07:01:59 <gmaxwell> man, bitcoin.org is really broken in the tor browser in tails.
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 814 2013-04-19 07:09:14 <jspilman> any way to get blockexplorer to return raw bytes instead of json for the /rawtx/ ?
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 835 2013-04-19 07:24:59 <gmaxwell> Hm.
 836 2013-04-19 07:25:08 <sivu> indeed
 837 2013-04-19 07:25:18 orblivion has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 838 2013-04-19 07:25:25 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: that change address in dr0ne_'s transaction is in his wallet.
 839 2013-04-19 07:25:31 keymone has quit (Quit: keymone)
 840 2013-04-19 07:25:40 * Luke-Jr expected that
 841 2013-04-19 07:26:19 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 842 2013-04-19 07:26:26 <gmaxwell> some of the coins it spent were change from prior transactions
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 845 2013-04-19 07:26:48 <gmaxwell> the keypool size is 100.
 846 2013-04-19 07:26:51 i2pRelay has joined
 847 2013-04-19 07:27:07 <gmaxwell> also, the wallet _knows_ that address was change.
 848 2013-04-19 07:27:20 <gmaxwell> dr0ne_: Sorry dude. I'm reasonably confident now that you're lying.
 849 2013-04-19 07:27:29 orblivion has joined
 850 2013-04-19 07:27:43 <Braden`> Does anyone know if there is a plugin for MetaTrader 4 to make it work with bitcoins?
 851 2013-04-19 07:30:24 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: also notice how quickly he came up with a new address for people to donate to, despite his concerns with even opening his client.. XD
 852 2013-04-19 07:30:46 tmsk_ has joined
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 855 2013-04-19 07:32:11 <Luke-Jr> and it's not even a new address
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 858 2013-04-19 07:32:27 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: hm. unlocking it does add one to the keypool.
 859 2013-04-19 07:32:51 <gmaxwell> I _thought_ if you had a foreign change transaction the wallet would identify the change as a recieved payment.
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 862 2013-04-19 07:33:47 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: also this sequence sounds odd— get exploited... start bitcoin .. see transaction.  Uhh.. if you just started bitcoin you won't see the txn until it confirms... unless you got really lucky with timing.
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 866 2013-04-19 07:37:00 <gmaxwell> so now I have conflicting data— the change there is his change, but the wallet hides the recieved coin. otoh when I unlocked the wallet it added one to the keypool.
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 873 2013-04-19 07:43:05 <jspilman> are the change addresses queued up in wallet.dat, so that if the wallet.dat was stolen and loaded into a new client, the change would be sent to a 'known' change address?
 874 2013-04-19 07:43:14 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: could you weaken that accusation on reddit? I'm not absolutely sure, and it's not like anyone is going to donate in any case, esp since I pointed out that the address is in the compromised wallet.
 875 2013-04-19 07:43:18 da2ce7-mobile has quit (Quit: Bye)
 876 2013-04-19 07:43:33 <gmaxwell> jspilman: addresses are, but it doesn't know if they are change or not.
 877 2013-04-19 07:43:50 <jspilman> oh, gotcha, so that's a serious red flag then
 878 2013-04-19 07:43:53 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: better?
 879 2013-04-19 07:43:58 <gmaxwell> but perhaps it can figure it out from context because it was a send-self?  I didn't think so.
 880 2013-04-19 07:44:22 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I thought change was just keys without a label
 881 2013-04-19 07:44:37 <diki> Luke-Jr:If the extranonce is rolled on each getwork, is unsigned int even enough?
 882 2013-04-19 07:44:40 <gmaxwell> oh snap.
 883 2013-04-19 07:44:48 <jspilman> if you self send a partial amount from unspent, you wold get a new regular rx and a new change address, yes?
 884 2013-04-19 07:45:01 <gmaxwell> yea, I take it back, getnewaddress just gave me that address. This wallet did indeed see the transaction from the network.
 885 2013-04-19 07:46:08 <Luke-Jr> hmm
 886 2013-04-19 07:46:34 <gmaxwell> I don't understand why a round amount was sent.
 887 2013-04-19 07:46:49 gagecolton has joined
 888 2013-04-19 07:47:28 <jspilman> it would be cool from forensics standpoint to be able to tell for sure if the wallet "thought" that it originated the tranaction.  99% of the fakers on reddit wouldn't have a clue how to hack the binary to make a wallet look right
 889 2013-04-19 07:48:03 <gmaxwell> well the simple thing would be to backup before you fake.
 890 2013-04-19 07:48:03 <Luke-Jr> yeah, gmaxwell's discovery here would make me think he's legit, if he wasn't behaving so oddly
 891 2013-04-19 07:48:05 <jspilman> and not smart enough to backup first,
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 893 2013-04-19 07:48:09 gagecolton2 has joined
 894 2013-04-19 07:48:15 <jspilman> stop that :-) it's 12:30am here
 895 2013-04-19 07:48:29 <jspilman> 3:30am for u?
 896 2013-04-19 07:48:45 MidStateBitach has joined
 897 2013-04-19 07:48:49 <MidStateBitach> I am trying to learn how to calculate the midstate and this is where I have gotten so far.
 898 2013-04-19 07:48:50 <gmaxwell> My interest in this isn't him faking or not, its there being a weakness in wallet encryption.
 899 2013-04-19 07:48:54 <MidStateBitach> http://pastebin.com/fREAF1j5
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 903 2013-04-19 07:49:55 <jspilman> yeah, for sure.  if it looked clean when you saw it, I would bet his machine was exploited long ago.  him coming to the chat site could just have been the trigger for someone to manually review the keylogger
 904 2013-04-19 07:50:01 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: maybe look into that website?
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 906 2013-04-19 07:50:38 <gmaxwell> unfortunately, he wasn't sure when he encrypted, so all these keys could have existed pre-encryption... and I don't think we can count on his belief that he had rebooted since using it, so keys could have been in memory. And as you say, he could have been exploited long ago and it was just fortunate timing.
 907 2013-04-19 07:50:55 i2pRelay has joined
 908 2013-04-19 07:51:08 <jspilman> must. have. cold. wallet.
 909 2013-04-19 07:51:36 <gmaxwell> jspilman: must browse in VM.
 910 2013-04-19 07:51:58 <jspilman> I have a raspberry pi coming tomorrow hopefully, could make a nice cold wallet
 911 2013-04-19 07:52:14 <gmaxwell> ah. I think I know why the theif didn't spend all coins.
 912 2013-04-19 07:52:36 <gmaxwell> they loaded the wallet. tried to send all coins  they would have gotten "not enough balance" because they needed a fee.
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 915 2013-04-19 07:53:42 <gmaxwell> so then they rounded down— what was left was some dust.
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 917 2013-04-19 07:56:28 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: note his "new" wallet for sympathy donations has been receiving coins for 2 weeks
 918 2013-04-19 07:57:36 <sipa> gmaxwell: change addresses are characterized by having a key/ckey entry, but not addr entry
 919 2013-04-19 07:57:51 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it's not a new wallet, it's one of the keys in this one.
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 921 2013-04-19 07:58:43 <gmaxwell> So his wallet was encrypted sometime prior to 4/9
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 926 2013-04-19 08:03:10 <gmaxwell> 1DoxUoY8cazWQWFZHE5d77dF7kAs9wieLe was a change address used by this wallet on 04-13  and since I know it was already encrypted on 4/9 that would contraindicate the "leaked an old unencrypted copy"
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 930 2013-04-19 08:05:01 <gmaxwell> (and indeed, it's still in the keypool in the older backup)
 931 2013-04-19 08:05:56 <michagogo> The logs link in the topic is broken :-/
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 944 2013-04-19 08:14:51 <K1773R_> Luke-Jr: got time now? :)
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 950 2013-04-19 08:16:47 <jspilman> in multi-sig, sigs must be ordered to line up with pubKeys, so that you only scan once left-to-right across sigs and pubKeys, yes? seems that script.cpp implements this, not sure I saw it written anywhere
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 954 2013-04-19 08:21:39 <midstae> I am trying to generate my own midstate.
 955 2013-04-19 08:21:42 <midstae> http://pastebin.com/fREAF1j5
 956 2013-04-19 08:21:46 <midstae> What happen next ?
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 962 2013-04-19 08:25:58 <sipa> midstae: you'll have to learn how to SHA256 algorithm works for that; it's way too long to guide you through it
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 965 2013-04-19 08:26:36 <midstae> Oh Don't worry, I already know how to SHA256
 966 2013-04-19 08:26:38 <midstae> I do
 967 2013-04-19 08:26:44 <midstae> It is just the result is not the sme
 968 2013-04-19 08:26:47 <midstae> They have the same length
 969 2013-04-19 08:27:00 El has joined
 970 2013-04-19 08:27:00 <midstae> But the result is different
 971 2013-04-19 08:27:14 <midstae> So...I am just wondering what is the "form" it takes to send to SHA256.
 972 2013-04-19 08:27:23 El is now known as Guest56070
 973 2013-04-19 08:27:25 <sipa> the midstate is not the result of SHA256, it's a snapshot of the algorithm's datastructure at some point during the computation of SHA256
 974 2013-04-19 08:27:25 <diki> binary
 975 2013-04-19 08:27:37 <sipa> and you'll need to swap per byte, not per hex character
 976 2013-04-19 08:27:39 <diki> in C that would be unsigned char
 977 2013-04-19 08:27:46 <sipa> so 00000001 -> 01000000
 978 2013-04-19 08:27:58 dvide has quit ()
 979 2013-04-19 08:28:06 <midstae> Here:
 980 2013-04-19 08:28:06 <midstae> http://pastebin.com/8vguh0F3
 981 2013-04-19 08:28:09 <midstae> I did that
 982 2013-04-19 08:28:13 <midstae> I have reversed it
 983 2013-04-19 08:28:20 <midstae> Check it out, my new result
 984 2013-04-19 08:28:25 <diki> still wrong
 985 2013-04-19 08:28:31 <midstae> With the correct midstate issued from getwork()
 986 2013-04-19 08:28:35 <sipa> as i said, the midstate is NOT the result of sha256
 987 2013-04-19 08:28:39 <midstae> There are a differnece
 988 2013-04-19 08:28:57 <midstae> Wait what ?
 989 2013-04-19 08:29:06 <sipa> you'll need a custom implementation of SHA256 to get those intermediate values
 990 2013-04-19 08:29:17 [Elementum] has joined
 991 2013-04-19 08:29:28 <sipa> 10:05:02 < sipa> the midstate is not the result of SHA256, it's a snapshot of the algorithm's datastructure at some point during the computation of SHA256
 992 2013-04-19 08:29:31 <diki> sipa:Can I compile the latest code and mine using it? Or is it not safe?
 993 2013-04-19 08:29:33 <midstae> So not only do I have to break the first 128 Characters of the Source Data into 16 Segments...within each segment I need to break it into two and reverse ?
 994 2013-04-19 08:29:46 <sipa> midstae: that's very much the least of your worries
 995 2013-04-19 08:30:01 <sipa> midstae: actually computing the hashes is far harder
 996 2013-04-19 08:30:11 <sipa> but you'll have to understand how the data is encoded in binary
 997 2013-04-19 08:30:29 <midstae> Which is why I am glad to only be assigned to figure out how to generate midstate....I think....
 998 2013-04-19 08:30:35 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 999 2013-04-19 08:30:54 <sipa> do you know how to calculate regular SHA256?
1000 2013-04-19 08:30:59 <midstae> Yes
1001 2013-04-19 08:31:02 <midstae> Not a problem with that
1002 2013-04-19 08:31:03 <sipa> and i don't mean using some library
1003 2013-04-19 08:31:05 <sipa> i mean by hand
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1005 2013-04-19 08:31:16 <diki> sipa:That's not even possible.
1006 2013-04-19 08:31:20 <midstae> Depends on the source data
1007 2013-04-19 08:31:24 <sipa> sorry, "manually"
1008 2013-04-19 08:31:29 <sipa> as in, implement SHA256 yourself
1009 2013-04-19 08:32:00 <michagogo> diki: Why is it impossible?
1010 2013-04-19 08:32:03 <midstae> Mindstate only requires a single Sha right ?
1011 2013-04-19 08:32:09 <sipa> midstae: no
1012 2013-04-19 08:32:14 <sipa> midstae: it's half a SHA256
1013 2013-04-19 08:32:14 <michagogo> Maybe it'd take a human a long time to do by hand, but it's not impossible
1014 2013-04-19 08:32:37 <midstae> So you need to hash it twice too for the midstate...just like the real thing/
1015 2013-04-19 08:32:41 <sipa> midstae: which is why you need to understand SHA256 yourself, you can't just use some library function to do it for you
1016 2013-04-19 08:33:08 <sipa> the library will calculate SHA256(data), not the intermediate data that midstate represents
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1019 2013-04-19 08:33:34 <midstae> because midstate is part of the SHA256....
1020 2013-04-19 08:33:42 <midstae> I think I am understanding what you mean...
1021 2013-04-19 08:33:46 <sipa> part of, yes
1022 2013-04-19 08:33:52 <sipa> but it's not the result
1023 2013-04-19 08:34:11 <sipa> it's some values of variables at some point during the SHA256 algo
1024 2013-04-19 08:34:22 <midstae> got it.
1025 2013-04-19 08:34:55 <diki> Considering midstate is deprecated, and miners must construct it themselves, looking at the cgminer code might help
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1041 2013-04-19 08:42:10 <Braden> Does anyone know if there is a plugin for MetaTrader 4 to make it work with bitcoins?
1042 2013-04-19 08:43:05 zw has joined
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1045 2013-04-19 08:46:30 <tumak> Braden: not that i know of
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1051 2013-04-19 08:47:25 zw has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1052 2013-04-19 08:47:34 <Braden> I'm surprised since its already used for currency trading in general...
1053 2013-04-19 08:47:41 leviathanbaphz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1054 2013-04-19 08:47:56 <tumak> Braden: there exists entire libraries of reverse engineered MT4S protocol
1055 2013-04-19 08:48:05 MC1984_ has joined
1056 2013-04-19 08:48:15 <tumak> mostly used by dodgy forex brokers for scalping their clients and other nasty things
1057 2013-04-19 08:48:16 leviathanbaphz has joined
1058 2013-04-19 08:48:43 <tumak> needless to say mqsoft aggressively sues anyone even mentioning details of the protocol
1059 2013-04-19 08:48:45 <Braden> Yea, I know.  I was just hoping someone had a ready-made plugin that would work with mtgox
1060 2013-04-19 08:48:52 zw has joined
1061 2013-04-19 08:49:19 <Braden> Heh, they can sue me all they want.  I don't live in a country that would care about things like that.
1062 2013-04-19 08:49:33 <Braden> At any rate, I am only interested in creating a better trading bot
1063 2013-04-19 08:49:50 Sealy has joined
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1065 2013-04-19 08:52:04 <tumak> Braden: might be simpler to reimplement mql4 script interpreter imo
1066 2013-04-19 08:52:13 <tumak> so one can reuse existing existing TA indicator stuff
1067 2013-04-19 08:54:39 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1068 2013-04-19 08:54:45 <Braden> What do you mean?  Usually if someone wants to adjust MT4 to work on a platform not immediately supported by MT4 (or a broker), they create a dll plugin and then are able to use EAs, TAs, etc. with it.  The dll only provides connectivity and a bridge to the API of the broker
1069 2013-04-19 08:55:11 i2pRelay has joined
1070 2013-04-19 08:55:59 <tumak> Braden: if you can find such a dll :)
1071 2013-04-19 08:56:32 jrra has joined
1072 2013-04-19 08:56:39 <tumak> as i said, mqsoft is *very* aggresive against anything not being mt4s on the broker side
1073 2013-04-19 08:57:44 grau has joined
1074 2013-04-19 08:59:05 <Braden> Aye
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1083 2013-04-19 09:05:54 <tumak> Braden: what youre saying actually does exist - oanda is mt4 tech with 3rd party plugin both on server and client side
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1091 2013-04-19 09:15:09 <jouke> Does the wallet keep track of transactions it received but are later doublespent?
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1102 2013-04-19 09:20:24 <sipa> jouke: it keeps track of all relevant (= your keys are involved) transactions, but doesn't deal specially (and badly, in particular) with double spent ones
1103 2013-04-19 09:21:59 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1104 2013-04-19 09:22:03 <TD> jouke: we try and do that in bitcoinj but it's not really complete
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1107 2013-04-19 09:27:12 <jouke> sipa: but do they get flagged or will they just be unconfirmed forever?
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1109 2013-04-19 09:28:29 <jouke> ie, am I able to spot a transaction that isn't valid anymore?
1110 2013-04-19 09:29:42 <sipa> jouke: unconfirmed forever
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1116 2013-04-19 09:34:25 <diki> if the extranonce is rolled in each getwork request(bitcoind) then isn't it possible to calculate the speed of a miner based on the time it took to solve the block and the number of rolls?
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1119 2013-04-19 09:35:29 <sipa> except miners don't necessary process the full 2^32 nonces before requesting new work
1120 2013-04-19 09:35:59 <diki> Why not? My 277mh/s 5850 can do it in 16 seconds or so
1121 2013-04-19 09:36:53 <sipa> for example p2pool requires new work every few seconds
1122 2013-04-19 09:37:03 <sipa> and if a new block is found, you immediately want new work
1123 2013-04-19 09:37:03 <diki> I am talking about solo mining
1124 2013-04-19 09:37:26 <diki> I was analyzing some coinbases, most were different than the reference client, but some were unchanged
1125 2013-04-19 09:37:27 <sipa> so, yes, it's possible if you make some assumptions
1126 2013-04-19 09:37:47 <sipa> and whether those assumptions are true depends on what software you use
1127 2013-04-19 09:38:37 <diki> Now then, is there any problem if I compile and mine with the latest git, despite the error about it being a pre-release?
1128 2013-04-19 09:40:35 <sipa> unlikely
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1139 2013-04-19 09:47:21 <zw> how come confirms on transactions on blockchain.info get into the thousands
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1141 2013-04-19 09:48:52 <sipa> what does blockchain.info have to do with it?
1142 2013-04-19 09:49:12 <sipa> confirmations is defined as (current height) - (height at which a transaction was included in the chain) + 1
1143 2013-04-19 09:49:14 <zw> it doesn't
1144 2013-04-19 09:49:22 <sipa> it goes to infinity
1145 2013-04-19 09:49:33 <zw> thanks
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1147 2013-04-19 09:50:31 <diki> yeah
1148 2013-04-19 09:50:41 <diki> My 50btc block I mined two years ago is over 110k confirms
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1152 2013-04-19 09:53:55 <diki> haha, price fell to 112
1153 2013-04-19 09:54:02 <diki> That was a nice laugh
1154 2013-04-19 09:54:13 <zw> so this means you mined it when the blockchain was 110k blocks shorter?
1155 2013-04-19 09:54:22 <diki> pretty much
1156 2013-04-19 09:54:26 <diki> I mined two blocks actually
1157 2013-04-19 09:54:34 <diki> 10 days apart
1158 2013-04-19 09:54:34 da2ce7-mobile has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1159 2013-04-19 09:54:41 <diki> even though my avg time was quite high
1160 2013-04-19 09:55:13 <zw> mining on cpus?
1161 2013-04-19 09:55:16 <diki> from time to time I solo mine bitcoin again, with my puny 277mh/s, but still
1162 2013-04-19 09:55:18 <diki> zw:GPUs
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1165 2013-04-19 09:56:35 <diki> I just re-compiled bitcoin to include a custom message in the coinbase
1166 2013-04-19 09:56:51 <diki> that way the whole world will know I mined it with 277mh/s
1167 2013-04-19 09:57:02 <diki> ...if I ever find one again ;P
1168 2013-04-19 09:57:43 <TD> sweet - journalist used the SPV android wallet to use bitcoin in switzerland and now 20min carries a positive story instead of previous negative ones
1169 2013-04-19 09:57:44 <TD> http://www.20min.ch/digital/news/story/Bezahlen-mit-virtuellem-Geld---der-Selbstversuch-30765826
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1172 2013-04-19 09:59:52 <diki> bitcoin has a bright future
1173 2013-04-19 10:00:50 hnz has joined
1174 2013-04-19 10:01:11 <TD> it's amazing how holding bitcoins in your hand turns around peoples opinions
1175 2013-04-19 10:02:04 <zw> do people on silkroad still use bitcoin
1176 2013-04-19 10:02:22 <diki> try it and see :)
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1183 2013-04-19 10:06:31 <SomeoneWeird> diki, you're solo mining with 300mh?
1184 2013-04-19 10:06:46 <diki> yes!! and don't bother, I know my avg time
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1188 2013-04-19 10:08:19 <sivu> my friend solo mines on his laptop. 8mh
1189 2013-04-19 10:08:26 <sivu> i tried to tell him..
1190 2013-04-19 10:08:47 <gmaxwell> sivu: yea, but if he finds a block, he's going to laugh at you forever now. Shows how smart you are! :P
1191 2013-04-19 10:08:59 <Scrat> sivu: maybe he sees it as a form of gambling
1192 2013-04-19 10:09:07 <diki> I found my first block just 6 hrs after solo mining in 2011
1193 2013-04-19 10:09:13 <diki> and the difficulty was nearly 300k
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1195 2013-04-19 10:09:25 <diki> if not even higher
1196 2013-04-19 10:09:44 <zw> diki: what did you add as your custom messege
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1200 2013-04-19 10:11:59 <diki> dat feel when you know you gonna find a block
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1203 2013-04-19 10:13:44 <sivu> gmaxwell: yeah well.. i'm betting on his laptop melting before he finds a block
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1206 2013-04-19 10:15:26 <diki> I'm using my 2blocks wallet, as I've conveniently dubbed it for extra luck :D
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1210 2013-04-19 10:17:04 <sivu> arthur 'two blocks' jackson
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1214 2013-04-19 10:20:40 <diki> also
1215 2013-04-19 10:20:53 <diki> dat feel when you get a diff 1 million false positive
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1218 2013-04-19 10:23:17 <zw> i've got access to a laptop with a firepro 7740, it might get 100mh/s prob not worth the risk though
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1224 2013-04-19 10:25:34 <zw> my friend got one the other day with diff 18k or osmething, so every 500 times he gets that he mines a block haha
1225 2013-04-19 10:25:41 <zw> and that was at the previous diff
1226 2013-04-19 10:26:17 <diki> i get high diff shares every day
1227 2013-04-19 10:27:12 <zw> he's in a pool i'm not sure if he's allowed
1228 2013-04-19 10:27:52 <diki> allowed what?
1229 2013-04-19 10:28:16 <zw> to get his hoppes up
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1232 2013-04-19 10:30:46 <zw> diki: what do you run to solo-mine?
1233 2013-04-19 10:30:57 <diki> standard bitcoin and cgminer
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1235 2013-04-19 10:31:35 <zw> on linux?
1236 2013-04-19 10:31:39 i2pRelay has joined
1237 2013-04-19 10:32:15 <zw> standard is the one you get with apt-get?
1238 2013-04-19 10:32:20 <diki> Windows.
1239 2013-04-19 10:32:30 <zw> cool
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1262 2013-04-19 10:53:04 <zw> so total hashrate drops around weekend time usually?
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1273 2013-04-19 11:04:43 <debiantoruser> Who knows something like this http://www.sierrachart.com/ but opensource and free?
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1282 2013-04-19 11:12:38 <diki> who was the person who designed the Qt UI?
1283 2013-04-19 11:12:48 <sipa> wumpus
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1285 2013-04-19 11:13:42 <diki> I'm having trouble aligning this label with the rest
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1312 2013-04-19 11:47:32 <jgm> debiantoruser: Marketcetera is the only one I'm aware of, haven't looked at them for a while though
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1337 2013-04-19 12:10:01 <diki> wumpus:Since you designed the Qt UI, can you tell me how you aligned the labels with the ones next to them?
1338 2013-04-19 12:10:10 <diki> I've been trying it, but failed.
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1386 2013-04-19 12:53:14 <n5> is it possible to refill pool addresses faster without checking chain
1387 2013-04-19 13:05:44 <JWU42> seems there is a memory leak somewgere in HEAD
1388 2013-04-19 13:05:55 <JWU42> 1900MB after starting last night
1389 2013-04-19 13:06:00 <JWU42> 12 connects
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1393 2013-04-19 13:09:51 <sipa> JWU42: RES or VIRT?
1394 2013-04-19 13:10:15 <sipa> n5: no idea what you're asking
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1411 2013-04-19 13:43:42 <mnel> Hi there everyone
1412 2013-04-19 13:43:58 <mnel> I wrote my own mining app. Busy testing at the moment.
1413 2013-04-19 13:44:07 <mnel> Now, I know theres testnet, but I can't seem to get the coinbase transaction as in "coinbasetxn" from bitcoind running locally. Is there any way I could get some test data as it would be received from a getblocktemplate request coming from a pool server with the nonce used and correct hash?
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1419 2013-04-19 13:50:09 <Luke-Jr> mnel: use a pool server?
1420 2013-04-19 13:53:24 <mnel> The thing is, when I use block explorer, I only get the transaction hashes. But when I use a pool I only get transaction DATA... Found no documentation about how to data->hash
1421 2013-04-19 13:53:31 <mnel> Any advice?
1422 2013-04-19 13:53:53 <Luke-Jr> …
1423 2013-04-19 13:53:54 reCrypto has joined
1424 2013-04-19 13:54:01 <reCrypto> Hi guys.
1425 2013-04-19 13:54:12 <Luke-Jr> mnel: seen https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Getblocktemplate#For_developers ?
1426 2013-04-19 13:54:44 <reCrypto> How do you determine a wallet address if its BTC, LTC, PPC or any other crypto? Is there any identifier for each kind of wallet address?
1427 2013-04-19 13:55:15 <Luke-Jr> reCrypto: yes, addresses have version bytes
1428 2013-04-19 13:55:36 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
1429 2013-04-19 13:55:41 <reCrypto> Luke-Jr Ah, I see. So they are determine by the size of bytes?
1430 2013-04-19 13:55:52 Bohren has joined
1431 2013-04-19 13:56:02 <diki> Hmm
1432 2013-04-19 13:56:40 caedes has joined
1433 2013-04-19 13:57:05 <mnel> Luke-Jr: Hmm, know that one. but most of the sources that I have found demonstrated with the hashes. And the documentation you reference does not specify whether it is using DATA or Transaction ID hash.
1434 2013-04-19 13:57:37 <diki> Luke-Jr:some alt-coins do not change them
1435 2013-04-19 13:57:59 <diki> maybe the magic bytes in pchMessage?
1436 2013-04-19 13:58:06 <Luke-Jr> mnel: seems clear to me
1437 2013-04-19 13:58:28 <lianj> the most stupid alchains like freicoin dont even change the address version and say its a feature afterwards
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1439 2013-04-19 13:59:08 <Luke-Jr> lianj: hmm? Freicoin is one of the very few legit altcoins O.o
1440 2013-04-19 13:59:19 <Luke-Jr> lianj: they use version 0/5 addresses too?
1441 2013-04-19 13:59:24 <reCrypto> Luke-Jr So sorry about what you mean by the version of bytes. :)
1442 2013-04-19 13:59:44 <lianj> Luke-Jr: legit , i dont know. same address versions yes
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1444 2013-04-19 14:00:39 <lianj> Luke-Jr: how is it legit to give 80% of miner reward to some hard coded foundation address which says it will donate/evenly-distribute that coins offchain afterwards
1445 2013-04-19 14:01:34 <Luke-Jr> lianj: how is that relevant?
1446 2013-04-19 14:01:35 <mnel> Luke-Jr: You're right. Seems I got turned around, let me get back to my original Q. How would I go about using a pool to test if my miner is in fact generating hashes correctly?
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1448 2013-04-19 14:01:54 <lianj> Luke-Jr: how is it not
1449 2013-04-19 14:02:10 malaimo has joined
1450 2013-04-19 14:02:13 <Luke-Jr> mnel: just request a template from a pool..?
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1452 2013-04-19 14:02:49 <n5> sipa then i adding a lot of addreses to bitcoind i mean with big keypool number, and starting to refii it, it does abous 2 keys/sec, so its rescan or do some shit with chain. I want to pregenerate a bit faster then 2keys/s
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1454 2013-04-19 14:04:22 <lianj> Luke-Jr: also its difficulty started with 1 which is genius
1455 2013-04-19 14:04:42 <Luke-Jr> lianj: …
1456 2013-04-19 14:05:26 <diki> How does bitcoin calculate the size of the nBits in the scriptsig? Like whether it's 4 bytes, 3 bytes or less etc
1457 2013-04-19 14:05:37 <diki> can't be varint, because it only does 1,3,5,9
1458 2013-04-19 14:05:39 <mnel> Luke-Jr: Ok, so if I request the data from a pool, lets say Eligius ;) -> My app generates what it believes to be a valid has (i.e. lower than target) -> How do I know if it was in fact generated correctly and is in fact valid?
1459 2013-04-19 14:05:53 <lianj> Luke-Jr: im just curious why you say its one of the very few legit altcoins. or was that irony?
1460 2013-04-19 14:06:10 <Luke-Jr> mnel: submit it
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1462 2013-04-19 14:06:34 <Luke-Jr> lianj: they're basically the only one doing real innovation
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1464 2013-04-19 14:07:04 <lianj> with the demurrage you mean?
1465 2013-04-19 14:07:14 <Luke-Jr> various different things
1466 2013-04-19 14:07:19 <Luke-Jr> using a decimal amount type, for example
1467 2013-04-19 14:08:02 <lianj> i got 1.2 frc, how is that decimal?
1468 2013-04-19 14:08:38 <lianj> and you have no concern with the foundation address reward thing?
1469 2013-04-19 14:08:45 <Luke-Jr> nope
1470 2013-04-19 14:09:01 <Luke-Jr> couldn't care less about initial distribution method
1471 2013-04-19 14:09:44 <mnel> Luke-Jr: Seems to be my only option. Wish me luck. Thanks for the patience!
1472 2013-04-19 14:10:30 <lianj> Luke-Jr: either hope you are trolling or i simply dont understand enough about it
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1474 2013-04-19 14:11:03 <K1773R_> Luke-Jr: did you check the qry yet (im not at home, so cant check it)
1475 2013-04-19 14:11:07 <Luke-Jr> lianj: admittedly, I think some of the ideas are bad ideas, but at least they're *doing something*
1476 2013-04-19 14:11:19 <Luke-Jr> K1773R_: yeah, haven't got around to it yet
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1479 2013-04-19 14:11:36 <lianj> Luke-Jr: i can agree on that :) thanks
1480 2013-04-19 14:11:37 <K1773R_> its nothing huge, i think you already did what i need
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1484 2013-04-19 14:14:23 <myirc> So Im wanting to start looking into taking bitcoin deposits on my backend...   but deposits, so no shopping cart needed...  do i use bitcoind?
1485 2013-04-19 14:15:04 <reCrypto> Sorry to repeat this question. How do you determine wallet addresses like BTC, LTC and other crypto wallet addresses? Is there a code that determines this?
1486 2013-04-19 14:15:12 <K1773R_> myirc: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Merchant_Howto
1487 2013-04-19 14:15:28 <Luke-Jr> myirc: put bitcoind on an offline computer, have it generate addresses to a USB stick, physically take that to a server and populate a database with the addresses
1488 2013-04-19 14:15:37 <skinnkavaj> Luke-Jr, sipa: Where can i find testnet coins?
1489 2013-04-19 14:15:42 systemParanoid has joined
1490 2013-04-19 14:15:52 <K1773R_> skinnkavaj: there are two faucets, let me search the links
1491 2013-04-19 14:15:57 WKNiGHT- is now known as WKNiGHT
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1493 2013-04-19 14:16:17 <K1773R_> skinnkavaj: http://tpfaucet.appspot.com/ and http://testnet.mojocoin.com/
1494 2013-04-19 14:16:27 <K1773R_> or mine em, thats easy ;)
1495 2013-04-19 14:16:37 milone has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1496 2013-04-19 14:16:37 <myirc> luke-jr my only real option is bitcoind though?  (no complaints, jyust dont know if it is worth googling that answer)
1497 2013-04-19 14:17:05 <K1773R_> myirc: read the wiki... there are alternatives, its up to you want you want
1498 2013-04-19 14:17:17 <skinnkavaj> K1773R: wow, can't i get more than that?
1499 2013-04-19 14:17:28 <skinnkavaj> I don't even get 100 testnet coins :P
1500 2013-04-19 14:17:46 <K1773R_> you can request more than 1 time
1501 2013-04-19 14:17:47 <Luke-Jr> myirc: there are services like BitPay as well
1502 2013-04-19 14:17:57 <K1773R_> why you need somany coins?
1503 2013-04-19 14:18:06 bitit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1504 2013-04-19 14:18:10 zrad has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1505 2013-04-19 14:18:54 bitit has joined
1506 2013-04-19 14:19:30 <myirc> yea,  I just want to keep all the btc as btc...   and have people deposit.. then I manually withdraw for them
1507 2013-04-19 14:20:32 <Luke-Jr> myirc: just don't let private keys be accessible by any computer connected to the internet, directly or indirectly
1508 2013-04-19 14:20:52 <myirc> so i figure bitpay etc isn't useful.. just need most straightforward thing i can plug into.. be able to check when the deposits have cleared, etc
1509 2013-04-19 14:20:53 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1510 2013-04-19 14:21:11 <Luke-Jr> well, BitPay does let you do Bitcoin-only too
1511 2013-04-19 14:21:31 <myirc> don't you have to have private keys connected to internet when poeple withdraw btc out of the wallet ?
1512 2013-04-19 14:21:45 meLon has joined
1513 2013-04-19 14:21:49 <Luke-Jr> myirc: not quite.
1514 2013-04-19 14:21:54 meLon has quit (Client Quit)
1515 2013-04-19 14:22:14 meLon has joined
1516 2013-04-19 14:22:14 <Luke-Jr> handling withdrawls you will find very difficult to do securely with bitcoind today
1517 2013-04-19 14:22:24 paracyst has quit ()
1518 2013-04-19 14:23:08 <helo> myirc: you need the transactions that sent to the private key, the private key, and the destination address (and possibly a change address)
1519 2013-04-19 14:23:18 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1520 2013-04-19 14:23:29 <Scrat> Luke-Jr: why not, provided that you keep a cold wallet
1521 2013-04-19 14:23:39 <sipa> you don't actually need the transactions, just the outputs suffices
1522 2013-04-19 14:23:47 <myirc> private key has to be on internet to withdraw
1523 2013-04-19 14:24:01 tonikt has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1524 2013-04-19 14:24:14 <helo> simplifying transactions ~= outputs
1525 2013-04-19 14:24:30 agricocb has joined
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1527 2013-04-19 14:25:32 <myirc> do you need the private key to look at the transfers to pregenerated addresses?
1528 2013-04-19 14:25:33 <helo> myirc: you can generate the "withdrawal" transaction on an offline machine if you shuttle the necessary data to it (eg with a thumb drive)
1529 2013-04-19 14:25:59 <helo> myirc: nope. just the address. if you don't have dev-specific suggestions, we can continue in #bitcoin
1530 2013-04-19 14:26:11 Garr255 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1544 2013-04-19 14:38:30 hnfdshbre has joined
1545 2013-04-19 14:38:43 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1546 2013-04-19 14:38:44 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1547 2013-04-19 14:38:44 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1548 2013-04-19 14:38:46 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1549 2013-04-19 14:38:48 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1550 2013-04-19 14:38:49 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1551 2013-04-19 14:38:50 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1552 2013-04-19 14:38:53 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1553 2013-04-19 14:38:56 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1554 2013-04-19 14:38:58 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1555 2013-04-19 14:39:00 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1556 2013-04-19 14:39:02 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1557 2013-04-19 14:39:06 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1558 2013-04-19 14:39:07 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1559 2013-04-19 14:39:10 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1560 2013-04-19 14:39:11 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1561 2013-04-19 14:39:11 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1562 2013-04-19 14:39:12 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1563 2013-04-19 14:39:13 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1564 2013-04-19 14:39:13 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1565 2013-04-19 14:39:15 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1566 2013-04-19 14:39:16 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1567 2013-04-19 14:39:17 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1568 2013-04-19 14:39:18 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1569 2013-04-19 14:39:20 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1570 2013-04-19 14:39:22 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1571 2013-04-19 14:39:26 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1572 2013-04-19 14:39:30 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1573 2013-04-19 14:39:31 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1574 2013-04-19 14:39:33 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1575 2013-04-19 14:39:34 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1576 2013-04-19 14:39:39 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1577 2013-04-19 14:39:39 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1578 2013-04-19 14:39:39 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1579 2013-04-19 14:39:42 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1580 2013-04-19 14:39:43 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1581 2013-04-19 14:39:44 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1582 2013-04-19 14:39:45 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1583 2013-04-19 14:39:45 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1584 2013-04-19 14:39:46 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1585 2013-04-19 14:39:47 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1586 2013-04-19 14:40:12 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1587 2013-04-19 14:40:26 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1588 2013-04-19 14:40:26 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1589 2013-04-19 14:40:26 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1590 2013-04-19 14:40:28 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1591 2013-04-19 14:40:28 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1592 2013-04-19 14:40:28 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1593 2013-04-19 14:40:33 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1594 2013-04-19 14:40:34 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1595 2013-04-19 14:40:35 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1596 2013-04-19 14:40:35 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1597 2013-04-19 14:40:35 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1598 2013-04-19 14:40:36 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1599 2013-04-19 14:40:37 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1600 2013-04-19 14:40:37 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1601 2013-04-19 14:40:37 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1602 2013-04-19 14:40:37 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1603 2013-04-19 14:40:38 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1604 2013-04-19 14:40:38 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1605 2013-04-19 14:40:39 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1606 2013-04-19 14:40:41 agricocb has joined
1607 2013-04-19 14:41:05 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1608 2013-04-19 14:41:06 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1609 2013-04-19 14:41:07 <hnfdshbre> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
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1613 2013-04-19 14:46:37 bfdzn has joined
1614 2013-04-19 14:46:55 <bfdzn> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1615 2013-04-19 14:46:56 <bfdzn> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1616 2013-04-19 14:46:56 <bfdzn> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1617 2013-04-19 14:46:57 <bfdzn> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1618 2013-04-19 14:46:58 <bfdzn> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1619 2013-04-19 14:47:02 <bfdzn> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1620 2013-04-19 14:47:07 <bfdzn> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1621 2013-04-19 14:47:11 <pjorrit_> nice very nice
1622 2013-04-19 14:47:16 <bfdzn> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1623 2013-04-19 14:47:24 Cryo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1624 2013-04-19 14:48:19 PhantomSpark has joined
1625 2013-04-19 14:48:36 <kjj> ignore doesn't seem to be working.  can we get a death penalty for spammers?
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1632 2013-04-19 14:54:07 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
1633 2013-04-19 14:54:43 wizkid057 has joined
1634 2013-04-19 14:54:53 gyufgtyftyf has joined
1635 2013-04-19 14:55:14 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|bitcoin-qt is exploitable
1636 2013-04-19 14:55:22 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|CoinChat.freetzi.com stole my wallet
1637 2013-04-19 14:55:55 <Scrat> dr0ne_|sleep: java exploit maybe?
1638 2013-04-19 14:56:08 <gyufgtyftyf> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1639 2013-04-19 14:56:09 <gyufgtyftyf> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1640 2013-04-19 14:56:09 <gyufgtyftyf> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1641 2013-04-19 14:56:09 <gyufgtyftyf> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1642 2013-04-19 14:56:10 <gyufgtyftyf> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1643 2013-04-19 14:56:10 <gyufgtyftyf> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1644 2013-04-19 14:56:11 <gyufgtyftyf> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1645 2013-04-19 14:56:11 <gyufgtyftyf> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1646 2013-04-19 14:56:14 <gyufgtyftyf> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1647 2013-04-19 14:56:14 <gyufgtyftyf> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1648 2013-04-19 14:56:14 <gyufgtyftyf> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1649 2013-04-19 14:56:15 <gyufgtyftyf> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1650 2013-04-19 14:56:15 <gyufgtyftyf> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1651 2013-04-19 14:56:15 <gyufgtyftyf> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1652 2013-04-19 14:56:15 <gyufgtyftyf> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1653 2013-04-19 14:56:16 <gyufgtyftyf> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1654 2013-04-19 14:56:18 <gyufgtyftyf> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1655 2013-04-19 14:56:20 <gyufgtyftyf> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1656 2013-04-19 14:56:21 <gyufgtyftyf> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1657 2013-04-19 14:56:22 stochasm has joined
1658 2013-04-19 14:56:32 <gyufgtyftyf> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1659 2013-04-19 14:56:33 <gyufgtyftyf> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1660 2013-04-19 14:56:33 <gyufgtyftyf> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1661 2013-04-19 14:56:34 <gyufgtyftyf> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1662 2013-04-19 14:56:35 <gyufgtyftyf> http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -http://goo.gl/i37IH 50 Bitcoin + Free 2 Bitcoin=$1399.99(special promotion) 2 Bitcoin=$174.44 http://goo.gl/i37IH -
1663 2013-04-19 14:56:56 <kjj> maybe a script to autokick anyone that posts that url?
1664 2013-04-19 14:57:04 <JWU42> he is from same IP
1665 2013-04-19 14:57:11 <JWU42> err
1666 2013-04-19 14:57:14 <JWU42> whoops - nope
1667 2013-04-19 14:57:37 xenesis_ has joined
1668 2013-04-19 14:57:56 agilenature has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1669 2013-04-19 14:58:45 <Ry4an> Just do a /ignore pattern that inlcudes US dollar signs for this channel.  Hides all the off-tpic USD/BTC market talk too. :)
1670 2013-04-19 14:58:49 <diki> sounds like a special promotion
1671 2013-04-19 14:59:02 <diki> Let's all get promoted
1672 2013-04-19 14:59:07 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|Scrat it is a java exploit
1673 2013-04-19 14:59:11 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|and it fucking stole my 2.07 BTC
1674 2013-04-19 14:59:18 <TD> what browser do you use ?
1675 2013-04-19 14:59:27 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|and Luke-Jr is posting saying I'm a scammer instead of helping me
1676 2013-04-19 14:59:28 da2ce7-mobile has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1677 2013-04-19 14:59:31 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|Chrome
1678 2013-04-19 14:59:38 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|I talked about this all last night and it got nowher
1679 2013-04-19 14:59:40 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|I have to go to work
1680 2013-04-19 14:59:46 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|CoinChat.freetzi.com is a fucking scam site
1681 2013-04-19 14:59:47 <kjj> link?
1682 2013-04-19 14:59:50 <Scrat> then it has nothing to do with bitcoin-qt, and please never ever run java on the browser
1683 2013-04-19 14:59:51 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|that will hack your BTC wallet
1684 2013-04-19 15:00:05 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|Scrat it hacked my encrypted wallety
1685 2013-04-19 15:00:15 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|and sent funds without my password
1686 2013-04-19 15:00:21 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|pretty big exploit
1687 2013-04-19 15:00:29 <Scrat> encrypted wallet  doesn't help if it installs a keylogger
1688 2013-04-19 15:00:37 <Scrat> pretty obvious
1689 2013-04-19 15:00:38 <gavinandresen> he claims he never typed his password
1690 2013-04-19 15:00:38 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1cnroc/my_wallet_just_got_hacked/
1691 2013-04-19 15:00:42 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|DIdn't typed my password
1692 2013-04-19 15:00:44 xenesis has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1693 2013-04-19 15:00:44 xenesis_ is now known as xenesis
1694 2013-04-19 15:00:46 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|type*
1695 2013-04-19 15:00:51 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|I have to go.
1696 2013-04-19 15:01:24 <gavinandresen> … most likely : unencrypted key was somewhere on the hard disk (maybe in erased space)
1697 2013-04-19 15:01:26 jciri has quit (Quit: Bye)
1698 2013-04-19 15:01:41 <gavinandresen> … or keylogger grabbed password at some point in the past.  Maybe even when the wallet was encrypted initially
1699 2013-04-19 15:02:50 <petertodd> sigh... well at least with the payment protocol we can do proper p2sh multisig and gradually eliminate these vulnerabilites
1700 2013-04-19 15:02:54 <petertodd> +1 gavin
1701 2013-04-19 15:03:18 <TD> dr0ne_|sleep: i submitted that site to the anti-malware system and it should get scanned shortly.
1702 2013-04-19 15:03:30 <TD> dr0ne_|sleep: you use chrome, you say? java isn't supposed to be activated in chrome
1703 2013-04-19 15:04:07 <Scrat> TD: is that public?
1704 2013-04-19 15:04:13 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|i ran the script becuase it presented itself as a chat app
1705 2013-04-19 15:05:16 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|If you can help me get back some of the 2.07 BTC I got stolen, i have a wallet on another device at 1LHXtq7Kf9VcufS4XZAdbod2nHhSMed8XM - I know most likely nobody will give anything but if you are somehow a rich BTC person I could really use the help
1706 2013-04-19 15:05:29 <TD> Scrat: http://www.google.com/safebrowsing/report_badware/
1707 2013-04-19 15:05:35 <Scrat> dr0ne_|sleep: that's very suspicious :p
1708 2013-04-19 15:05:39 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|if not no worries, don't go to that website though
1709 2013-04-19 15:05:40 <petertodd> dr0ne_|sleep: there is no way to really know if you are scamming us or not, so stop asking for funds
1710 2013-04-19 15:05:42 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|yeah scrat i know
1711 2013-04-19 15:05:46 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|i'm fucking desperate
1712 2013-04-19 15:05:56 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|petertodd i'm not that type of person
1713 2013-04-19 15:06:10 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|i care about bitcoin and want to know wtf happened
1714 2013-04-19 15:06:38 <gavinandresen> pardon our skepticism, we are skeptical of everybody.
1715 2013-04-19 15:06:45 <petertodd> dr0ne_|sleep: anyone can say they aren't that type of person, means nothing
1716 2013-04-19 15:06:45 eran_ has joined
1717 2013-04-19 15:06:50 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|it's totally understandable
1718 2013-04-19 15:06:52 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|petertodd
1719 2013-04-19 15:06:55 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|the type of person I am
1720 2013-04-19 15:07:05 <kjj> hey Gavin, can you store metadata alongside transactions in the wallet.dat?
1721 2013-04-19 15:07:06 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|is the guy who started #bostonbombing right after the marathon
1722 2013-04-19 15:07:16 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|i'm not some scamming fuck
1723 2013-04-19 15:07:19 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|anyway
1724 2013-04-19 15:07:19 notthemessiah has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1725 2013-04-19 15:07:22 <dr0ne_> sleep!~airlia@c-24-20-141-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net|off to work
1726 2013-04-19 15:07:31 <gavinandresen> kjj: sure, some metadata is stored already with outgoing (spend) transactions
1727 2013-04-19 15:08:00 <kjj> it might be handy, in cases like these, if the database could store a flag indicating that the transaction was created locally, rather than seen from the network/chain
1728 2013-04-19 15:08:12 <sipa> i think there is such a flag
1729 2013-04-19 15:08:23 <sipa> fIsMine, but i'm not sure it's used consistently
1730 2013-04-19 15:08:34 <TD> this isn't really an exploit
1731 2013-04-19 15:08:41 <TD> the java applet just downloads a windows binary and runs it
1732 2013-04-19 15:09:09 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1733 2013-04-19 15:09:20 Sealy has quit (Quit: Sealy)
1734 2013-04-19 15:09:23 <kjj> what I'm really wondering (assuming there was actually a theft) is if they stole his key, or convince his node to create the transaction
1735 2013-04-19 15:09:24 <petertodd> TD: you should look at jspilman's idea for doing payment channels without tx replacement - it even works with replace-by-fee
1736 2013-04-19 15:09:42 <petertodd> TD: or, I should say is secure in the face of
1737 2013-04-19 15:09:51 t7 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1738 2013-04-19 15:10:15 Bohren has joined
1739 2013-04-19 15:11:10 <Ry4an> kjj: someone picked one of these apart in reddit/bitcoin talk awhile back.  IIRC it counted on you being logged in to websites where you had BTC stored and then automated the x-fer of coins to their address.
1740 2013-04-19 15:11:27 <TD> petertodd: where is that?
1741 2013-04-19 15:11:41 <TD> kjj: it appears to be an AutoIt script
1742 2013-04-19 15:11:50 <TD> kjj: so this is not exactly some kind of sophisticated malware, as far as i can tell :/
1743 2013-04-19 15:12:32 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1744 2013-04-19 15:12:51 <petertodd> TD: yesterday on irc
1745 2013-04-19 15:12:53 agricocb has joined
1746 2013-04-19 15:13:28 <kjj> well, I haven't followed it that closely.  but he was claiming that the funds came out of a local bitcoin-qt instance, not an online wallet
1747 2013-04-19 15:15:21 <TD> well, i don't think miners replacing unconfirmed transactions with double spends is a good idea, but i'll check it out
1748 2013-04-19 15:15:46 <petertodd> TD: http://pastebin.com/hyGmdsSd there you go
1749 2013-04-19 15:15:46 <TD> oh, it seems the logging wasn't working for the last week
1750 2013-04-19 15:15:53 <sipa> it's an interesting discussion
1751 2013-04-19 15:16:15 <sipa> i think we can try to have a "best effort" 0-conf protection system
1752 2013-04-19 15:16:18 <petertodd> TD: bi-directional can be done, as well as multi-party
1753 2013-04-19 15:16:34 <sipa> but it can't have guarantees, and people shouldn't count on it
1754 2013-04-19 15:17:14 <TD> nothing in bitcoin is guaranteed
1755 2013-04-19 15:17:15 <petertodd> sipa: I actually quite like the idea of people buying fidelity bonds to promise they won't double spend - it was one of my original concepts for the whole thing
1756 2013-04-19 15:17:20 <sipa> once it so happens that miners do allow transaction replacement based on highest fee - and perhaps that's an inevitable evolution - we probably need to make it default
1757 2013-04-19 15:17:38 john5223 has joined
1758 2013-04-19 15:17:51 polrpaul has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1759 2013-04-19 15:17:52 <sipa> TD: at least the risks for reverting confirmed transactions are quantifiable
1760 2013-04-19 15:18:05 <sipa> that's probably the main difference
1761 2013-04-19 15:18:10 <petertodd> I emailed jdillon asking him what exact his plans were BTW, and he was sympathetic to ensuring that a bunch of hashing power didn't switch to that rule over night - IE don't get people hurt
1762 2013-04-19 15:19:17 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
1763 2013-04-19 15:20:15 roconnor has joined
1764 2013-04-19 15:20:30 <TD> sipa: no, they are quantifiable in all cases
1765 2013-04-19 15:20:38 <TD> you can simply measure it for unconfirmed transactions
1766 2013-04-19 15:20:45 agilenature has joined
1767 2013-04-19 15:20:57 xenesis_ has joined
1768 2013-04-19 15:21:07 eran_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1769 2013-04-19 15:21:12 <TD> the idea that some harmful behaviour is inevitable so we might as well encourage it is a very large change from how bitcoin was designed. but i don't want to get into this discussion because i think the chances of gavin accepting it are very low, if only because there are so many merchants who want to use them
1770 2013-04-19 15:21:33 BlackPrapor has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1771 2013-04-19 15:22:43 <TD> i don't really understand jspilmans point
1772 2013-04-19 15:23:07 nsillik has joined
1773 2013-04-19 15:23:23 darkee has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1774 2013-04-19 15:23:39 xenesis has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1775 2013-04-19 15:23:39 xenesis_ is now known as xenesis
1776 2013-04-19 15:23:47 <TD> the protocol starts with the payer getting a transaction that gives them all their money back. it has to otherwise you have to trust the recipient. so without tx replacement what stops me broadcasting that initial version of the contract after using up a bunch of service
1777 2013-04-19 15:24:01 owowo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1778 2013-04-19 15:24:14 <petertodd> the initial tx that gives the funds back is nLockTime'd, so it can't be broadcast
1779 2013-04-19 15:24:19 <TD> it can be broadcast
1780 2013-04-19 15:24:24 <petertodd> not anymore it can't
1781 2013-04-19 15:24:24 <TD> that's the whole point of the feature
1782 2013-04-19 15:25:03 <petertodd> one of the interesting things is it's a bit of game theory for miners: do they accept the tx now, or do they wait to mine the nlocktime'd refund tx?
1783 2013-04-19 15:25:37 <petertodd> the vendor needs to make sure they broadcast the final tx locking in the funds the buyer is giving them sufficiently before the refund tx can be mined
1784 2013-04-19 15:26:29 <TD> alright. so i broadcast the 2nd version of the transaction and it finalizes immediately. i'm not interested in big redesigns of how these features work. bitcoin's design isn't really something we should be heavily changing at this point unless we absolutely have to. making an existing feature safe is not a big change. entirely new designs for how transactions and miners behave *is* a big change.
1785 2013-04-19 15:27:26 <TD> what you've come up with here is a design that is fundamentally different to how satoshi designed it to work, except without all the other use cases also being redesigned
1786 2013-04-19 15:27:37 <petertodd> It's not an existing feature. TX replacement has been disabled for years. What's brilliant about jspilmans's design is it can be done *now* with the network exactly as it is.
1787 2013-04-19 15:27:52 <petertodd> No changes required at all, not replace by fee or anything.
1788 2013-04-19 15:28:47 <TD> yes, that is an advantage for quick deployment indeed
1789 2013-04-19 15:29:27 <petertodd> Exactly. It also gets rid of one of the major reasons you'd want tx-replacement (satoshi's design) - heck, what other use-cases were there for it?
1790 2013-04-19 15:29:50 <TD> see what he originally wrote (i posted it to the mailing list thread).
1791 2013-04-19 15:30:01 Michail1_ is now known as Michail1
1792 2013-04-19 15:30:19 <TD> multi-way contracts in which more than two participants take part and some can drop out half way through
1793 2013-04-19 15:30:32 Detritus has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1794 2013-04-19 15:31:12 <petertodd> I saw that - I don't see why multiple of these payment channels wouldn't work. After all, the recipient of funds can always drop out by just signing and broadcasting the last payment tx they got.
1795 2013-04-19 15:31:29 robbak has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1796 2013-04-19 15:31:39 BlackPrapor has joined
1797 2013-04-19 15:31:53 robbak has joined
1798 2013-04-19 15:31:59 <TD> one of the unfortunate things about contracts is that satoshi clearly though through a lot of use cases, and didn't document any of them. except for when i basically forced him to explain the purpose of sequence numbers.
1799 2013-04-19 15:32:05 <petertodd> Potentially there could be some issues if you wanted synchronization between multiple party payments, but I think that can be solved too.
1800 2013-04-19 15:32:24 <TD> as a simple example, if you want channels to be able to shrink as well as grow, replacement is needed. having two channels in both directions requires the receiving side to put up as much money as the sender does.
1801 2013-04-19 15:32:26 <TD> it's a less general mechanis
1802 2013-04-19 15:32:30 <TD> mechanism
1803 2013-04-19 15:33:00 <petertodd> Well, heck, I found a mailing list post by him from Nov 2008 which kinda implied he still wasn't sure that Bitcoin would have tx fees so...
1804 2013-04-19 15:33:33 <TD> the fee mechanism always existed, but yeah, at least at the start he wasn't sure it'd ever be necessary. and i'm personally still not. see the waste heat argument. it's interesting to ponder, at any rate.
1805 2013-04-19 15:33:50 <petertodd> TD: Well, given the "can't sign a tx depending on an incomplete tx" problem I'm not sure that doing anything but both parties putting the same amount in is sane.
1806 2013-04-19 15:34:05 LainZ has joined
1807 2013-04-19 15:34:16 <TD> he once mentioned he spent a lot of time designing various kinds of contracts and encountered a special case explosion, that's when he decided to add script. so contracts pre-dated script at least.
1808 2013-04-19 15:34:17 <petertodd> The fact that we're arguing about fees shows that he may have been unsure. :P
1809 2013-04-19 15:34:23 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1810 2013-04-19 15:35:02 <petertodd> My working theory is Satoshi was going to start school again in January and was in a rush... not making checksig modular made the script stuff not terribly useful for the most part.
1811 2013-04-19 15:35:07 <TD> what i meant is that with replacement you can increase the size of the payments you've made, and then with the recipients agreement pay less again, without the recipient needing a float.
1812 2013-04-19 15:35:27 <TD> school? heh. i always assumed he was probably retired or tenured.
1813 2013-04-19 15:35:30 <petertodd> Why not just finalize the channel then and start fresh?
1814 2013-04-19 15:35:50 <petertodd> Maybe his sabattical was over then? :P
1815 2013-04-19 15:36:51 eran_ has joined
1816 2013-04-19 15:37:20 spooky_ has joined
1817 2013-04-19 15:38:00 <TD> well that works if the reduction is a rare event. if it fluctuates up and down quickly then you don't want each reduction to be a new transaction.
1818 2013-04-19 15:38:01 spooky_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1819 2013-04-19 15:38:51 <TD> but ok, yes, for the micropayments-for-microservice use case, jspilman's variant is more easily deployable.
1820 2013-04-19 15:39:04 <TD> the trick being that if/when we do reactivate tx replacement, the protocol becomes insecure
1821 2013-04-19 15:39:11 gagecolton has joined
1822 2013-04-19 15:39:13 <TD> so that's kind of a bummer. you'd need a flag day.
1823 2013-04-19 15:40:03 <petertodd> Right, basically jspilman's varient is annoying for payment channels with a small DC component and a large AC component. :P
1824 2013-04-19 15:40:41 <petertodd> Nah, it's not insecure, because the refund tx can have a nSqeunce=0, and the payment tx's nSequnce=maxint
1825 2013-04-19 15:41:36 <TD> then i can still broadcast the 2nd iteration of the contract, no? but i think if nLockTime is not set, then sequence numbers are irrelevant
1826 2013-04-19 15:41:41 brocktice has quit (Quit: leaving)
1827 2013-04-19 15:41:45 <TD> so you could still increment the sequence numbers
1828 2013-04-19 15:42:10 <petertodd> But remember that all the intermediate payment tx's are incomplete, but when completed by the recipient are final so they should take priority over anything else.
1829 2013-04-19 15:42:30 <petertodd> (half-signed is a better word than complete)
1830 2013-04-19 15:42:33 <petertodd> *incomplete
1831 2013-04-19 15:43:07 <petertodd> Basically the sender is saying "OK, here's an even better tx for you to sign than the one I gave you 10 seconds ago."
1832 2013-04-19 15:43:19 <TD> right, true.
1833 2013-04-19 15:43:33 brocktice has joined
1834 2013-04-19 15:43:33 <TD> ok. so it seems there is a migration path too. hmm maybe i'll try implementing this.
1835 2013-04-19 15:44:05 <TD> i still want to reactivate replacement though. i suspect there are lots of interesting uses for the more complex contractual forms that we haven't really explored yet
1836 2013-04-19 15:44:12 * TD -> bbiab
1837 2013-04-19 15:44:16 <petertodd> Yup. I want to let jspilman make the formal announcement describing it, but if he takes too long I'm going to do a set of tx's by hand to try out the idea.
1838 2013-04-19 15:45:01 <petertodd> Well look, add some anti-DoS code, however primative, to your testnet patch and I'll be happy. Heck, make it a simple rate limiter.
1839 2013-04-19 15:45:08 <petertodd> Like no more than n replacements per second.
1840 2013-04-19 15:45:10 Hans-Martin has joined
1841 2013-04-19 15:45:49 <petertodd> But yeah, I think Gavin doesn't want to touch the issue for a bit longer.
1842 2013-04-19 15:46:29 <HM2> http://www.matasano.com/articles/crypto-challenges/
1843 2013-04-19 15:46:35 <HM2> might interest some people here
1844 2013-04-19 15:48:21 <gavinandresen> petertodd: lots of higher priorities right now, in my humble opinion.  It is fun to work on new gee-whiz features, but we need to get the simple stuff correct. Really simple stuff, like rational transaction fees.....
1845 2013-04-19 15:48:36 <gavinandresen> … or supporting more than 7 transactions per second.
1846 2013-04-19 15:48:46 ThomasV has joined
1847 2013-04-19 15:49:03 <gavinandresen> Speaking of which:  If you want new gee-whiz stuff, then we're going to need to agree soon on how to raise the block size limit.  Just sayin.
1848 2013-04-19 15:49:17 schmoe has joined
1849 2013-04-19 15:50:00 paybitcoin has joined
1850 2013-04-19 15:50:19 paybitcoin1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1851 2013-04-19 15:50:33 <alaricsp> Miners are incentivized to mine larger blocks, to get more transaction fees for their same effort, right?
1852 2013-04-19 15:51:12 <ThomasV> not only. if the block is too large it does not propagate as well
1853 2013-04-19 15:51:31 <ThomasV> so the risk of being orphaned increases
1854 2013-04-19 15:51:41 <HM2> hmm
1855 2013-04-19 15:52:03 <gavinandresen> … and there is a meta-incentive for all of them to cooperate to keep block sizes smaller so transaction fees go up (but a big prisoner's dilemma there, too)
1856 2013-04-19 15:52:47 owowo has joined
1857 2013-04-19 15:52:48 <michagogo> Isn't the foundation of the prisoners' dilemma the fact that the sides are incapable of communicating between them?
1858 2013-04-19 15:53:12 <alaricsp> Hrm
1859 2013-04-19 15:53:25 <gavinandresen> no
1860 2013-04-19 15:53:30 tonikt has joined
1861 2013-04-19 15:53:32 rdymac has joined
1862 2013-04-19 15:53:41 schmoe has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1863 2013-04-19 15:53:45 <gavinandresen> they could communicate, the dilemma is that they don't know if they're lying to each other or not
1864 2013-04-19 15:53:47 <petertodd> gavinandresen: quoting jdillon here "Having said that I have some advice for you Peter Todd: Write some code for once or people will never take you seriously. You appear to have an English degree rather than a Computer Science degree."
1865 2013-04-19 15:53:58 <alaricsp> prisoner's dilemma is about stabbing people in the back... so communication is of limited use as people can lie :-)
1866 2013-04-19 15:54:07 <petertodd> gavinandresen: I don't care about gee-wizz stuff as much as I do decentralization
1867 2013-04-19 15:54:22 <gavinandresen> petertodd: then you should be thinking about how to encourage more solo mining right now
1868 2013-04-19 15:54:25 <petertodd> gavinandresen: But the other half of blocksize stuff is making alternatives that work
1869 2013-04-19 15:54:45 <petertodd> gavinandresen: Big mining pools don't worry me too much, because it's easy for miners to recognize a problem and switch to another pool.
1870 2013-04-19 15:55:07 <petertodd> gavinandresen: It's when switching is hard that we're screwed.
1871 2013-04-19 15:55:32 AndChat-542100 has joined
1872 2013-04-19 15:55:37 <petertodd> Anyway, I promised myself I'd waste less time on IRC this month... later
1873 2013-04-19 15:56:11 <gaantr2> can I be selfish and ask a bitcoin-j question?
1874 2013-04-19 15:56:35 <alaricsp> ThomasV: So to deal with a larger transaction burden, do w ehave miners (or rather, pool operators) needing to get faster connections to more peers so they can propogate their big blocks, or having more frequent blocks, hmmm?
1875 2013-04-19 15:57:09 <ThomasV> we can't have more frequent blocks
1876 2013-04-19 15:57:24 <ThomasV> that's a hard rule
1877 2013-04-19 15:57:26 <alaricsp> I suspect that faster connections are an inevitable part of the future of pool operators, given the concept of one day handling a transaction volume rivalling Visa's
1878 2013-04-19 15:57:26 DLN-001 has joined
1879 2013-04-19 15:57:29 <alaricsp> ThomasV: Quite
1880 2013-04-19 15:57:59 <alaricsp> Or, do we have a global transaction rate cap, and then force more transactoins to be off-chain within ewallets or by passing around casascius coins?
1881 2013-04-19 15:58:03 bitafterbit has joined
1882 2013-04-19 15:58:12 <ThomasV> btw, more frequent blocks would not help to deal with more tx
1883 2013-04-19 15:58:41 <alaricsp> Well, if there's a block size limit, then more txns per second would heave to mean more blocks per second (not that I'm saying that's practical), unlesss something else gives
1884 2013-04-19 15:59:18 <gaantr2> My 2 cents: if you need to do bigger blocks - do bigger blocks. Better to do it now than to have another blockchain fork
1885 2013-04-19 16:00:38 <gaantr2> I have a small program which has a keyring. Everytime I restart my program my wallet seems to be cooked and it doesnt seem to process transactions anymore.
1886 2013-04-19 16:00:44 <gaantr2> bitcoin-j program
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1889 2013-04-19 16:02:13 <gaantr2> My program is simple enough, it just receives transactions on addresses generated and put on the keychain and then it sends the coins off to where they need to go once the coins are confirmed.
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1892 2013-04-19 16:03:54 <gaantr2> Exception which I see occuring is moc.google.bitcoin.store.BlockStoreException: Could not lock file
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1900 2013-04-19 16:20:14 <wumpus> diki: alignment of labels? hm maybe by using a QFormLayout or QGridLayout
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1903 2013-04-19 16:21:20 <TD> petertodd: i thought that comment was a bit unfair. you clearly can code. there's no requirement to code to have opinions. that said, a balance is nice :)
1904 2013-04-19 16:21:49 <TD> gavinandresen: re: the details of block size  limits. i still quite like a difficulty-style floating limit that's recalculated every few weeks
1905 2013-04-19 16:21:54 <TD> gavinandresen: beyond that no opinion on the details
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1932 2013-04-19 16:41:51 <xait9> anyone working on any trading platforms?
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1936 2013-04-19 16:45:09 <shesek> xait9, buttercoin (#buttercoin, #buttercoin-dev) seems to be in active development
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1953 2013-04-19 16:59:22 <etotheipi_> is there a good testnet explorer?   blockexplorer.com/testnet seems to show the old one, not testnet3
1954 2013-04-19 16:59:34 <xait9> shesek:nice, thanks
1955 2013-04-19 17:02:57 AndChat377264 has joined
1956 2013-04-19 17:03:15 <kadoban> etotheipi_: hmm? that's the testnet explorer i use, with current client and such, it must be testnet3
1957 2013-04-19 17:03:24 Insu has joined
1958 2013-04-19 17:06:08 <gaantr2> does anyone know where I can get information on the structure of the bitcoin-j wallet?
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1960 2013-04-19 17:07:02 <saracen> gaantr2: https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/source/browse/core/src/main/java/org/bitcoinj/wallet/Protos.java
1961 2013-04-19 17:07:32 <saracen> Might be best to look at the proto file actually
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1963 2013-04-19 17:08:34 <saracen> https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/source/browse/core/src/bitcoin.proto#219
1964 2013-04-19 17:08:34 <gaantr2> thanks
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1986 2013-04-19 17:33:30 <gaantr2> saracen: Do you know a lot about bitcoin-j?
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1993 2013-04-19 17:45:42 <gaantr2> okay - before I give up and start w/ pastebin - let me ask one more question. Is it possible to receive on an address after you've destroyed a bitcoinj wallet.
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1996 2013-04-19 17:49:26 <Jearil> gaantr2, BTC in wallets don't exist in the wallet itself, it exists in the public blockchain.
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1998 2013-04-19 17:49:48 [Bear]Namworld is now known as Namworld|bear
1999 2013-04-19 17:51:47 <sipa> Jearil: it's a philosophical discussion, but i disagree :)
2000 2013-04-19 17:52:04 <sipa> yes, you can recover confirmed coins from the blockchain if you lose your wallet
2001 2013-04-19 17:52:16 <sipa> but a wallet is more than that
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2004 2013-04-19 17:55:30 <MC1984_> coins dont exist at all afaik
2005 2013-04-19 17:55:37 xenesis_ has joined
2006 2013-04-19 17:55:45 <MC1984_> and not in the sense of being electronic, they dont exist in the system i think
2007 2013-04-19 17:55:53 <MC1984_> coins are an abstraction right
2008 2013-04-19 17:56:00 Cryo has joined
2009 2013-04-19 17:56:04 <sipa> unspent transaction outputs are clearly definable
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2011 2013-04-19 17:56:14 xenesis_ is now known as xenesis
2012 2013-04-19 17:56:18 <sipa> and sure, it's an abstraction, but so is all data that exists only in digital form
2013 2013-04-19 17:56:43 <MC1984_> they dont move though
2014 2013-04-19 17:56:55 <MC1984_> they get dstoyed and reformed as appropriate
2015 2013-04-19 17:56:59 <sipa> yeah
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2017 2013-04-19 17:57:26 <gaantr2> well as I understand it a wallet consists of a keyring of private keys and public keys to addresses which exist in the blockchain
2018 2013-04-19 17:57:27 <gaantr2> no?
2019 2013-04-19 17:57:59 <gaantr2> I know it is more complicated than that
2020 2013-04-19 17:58:13 <MC1984_> i thought thats all a wallet was
2021 2013-04-19 17:58:15 <gaantr2> I'm just trying to make my simpleton website which receives coins and sends coins
2022 2013-04-19 17:58:37 <MC1984_> prikeys and other misc metadata
2023 2013-04-19 17:58:42 <kadoban> MC1984_: i think it also stores some other stuff, like transactions you're sending out but haven't been mined yet, that kind of stuff
2024 2013-04-19 17:58:57 <kadoban> been confirmed yet*
2025 2013-04-19 17:58:59 <MC1984_> right
2026 2013-04-19 17:59:02 <sipa> gaantr2: a wallet is the combination of keys, and the transactions that provide the coins you can spend with those keys
2027 2013-04-19 17:59:13 <sipa> gaantr2: those transactions can partially be recovered from the blockchain
2028 2013-04-19 18:00:33 <gaantr2> so is it safe to say, if you have the private keys to an address you can recover coins sent to a particular address?
2029 2013-04-19 18:01:09 Namworld is now known as bear!~Namworld@modemcable075.132-23-96.mc.videotron.ca|Namworld
2030 2013-04-19 18:01:58 <sipa> recover _confirmed_ coins
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2032 2013-04-19 18:02:01 <gaantr2> I didnt lose any coins... yet! but I just feel my program wallet is flaky enough that I want to keep a backup of those private keys because I don't know what the hell to do with the protobuf.
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2042 2013-04-19 18:08:57 SrPx has joined
2043 2013-04-19 18:09:49 <SrPx> Hey! I have some newb questions (how many coins can I expect to mine in a month, just so I can get an idea of scale). Do you have a FAQ?
2044 2013-04-19 18:11:54 vigilyn2 has joined
2045 2013-04-19 18:12:00 <gonffen> I think you're looking for #bitcoin.
2046 2013-04-19 18:12:06 <gonffen> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ
2047 2013-04-19 18:12:42 <gonffen> expected coins mined are related to your hashrate and the difficulty
2048 2013-04-19 18:12:50 <gonffen> there are calculators for this
2049 2013-04-19 18:14:08 <saracen> 17:55:39 < gaantr2> saracen: Do you know a lot about bitcoin-j?
2050 2013-04-19 18:14:09 <saracen> no :)
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2053 2013-04-19 18:15:04 <SrPx> gonffen: thanks!
2054 2013-04-19 18:15:26 <gaantr2> Does anyone have any clue what could be causing this: http://pastebin.com/kCtshf4v
2055 2013-04-19 18:16:02 Thepok has joined
2056 2013-04-19 18:16:15 <saracen> My guess would be that another instance is already running
2057 2013-04-19 18:17:37 <SrPx> What I find frustrating is that every tutorial I read, including that FAQ, is absolutely lacking in technical details. "Solving a set of mathematical problems" grr I'm a CS student, just tell what is the damn problem.
2058 2013-04-19 18:18:06 <gaantr2> saracen: seems only one instance is running.
2059 2013-04-19 18:18:10 <gaantr2> it was a fresh start actually.
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2062 2013-04-19 18:26:08 <sipa> SrPx: finding a nonce that, when added to the rest of the block header, using double SHA256, results in a 32-byte array that when interpreted as an unsigned little-endian 256-bit number, is less than a target number, determined by the protocol rules (in reaction to the observed hash rate recently)
2063 2013-04-19 18:26:26 <Jearil> SrPx, the math is actually explained. It's confirming transactions using the hash of the last block, the hash of all transactions, and a nonce. The difficulty part is that the hash has to be under a certain number.
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2065 2013-04-19 18:27:17 <saracen> You just wasted bandwidth.
2066 2013-04-19 18:28:02 <Banan> true
2067 2013-04-19 18:28:03 rdymac has joined
2068 2013-04-19 18:28:03 Peacemaker420 has joined
2069 2013-04-19 18:28:07 <sipa> !false
2070 2013-04-19 18:28:08 <gribble> I do not know about 'false', but I do know about these similar topics: 'faucet', 'faq'
2071 2013-04-19 18:28:40 gagecolton has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2072 2013-04-19 18:30:36 <gaantr2> !!!false
2073 2013-04-19 18:30:36 <gribble> Error: "!!false" is not a valid command.
2074 2013-04-19 18:31:04 <Banan> !help
2075 2013-04-19 18:31:04 <gribble> The bot responds when you start a line with the ! character. A good starting point for exploring the bot is the !facts command. You can also visit the bot's website for a list of help topics and documentation: http://gribble.sourceforge.net/
2076 2013-04-19 18:31:53 <gaantr2> true==false?true:false;
2077 2013-04-19 18:32:04 <Banan> !diff
2078 2013-04-19 18:32:05 <gribble> 8974296.01488785
2079 2013-04-19 18:32:18 <Banan> !interval
2080 2013-04-19 18:32:19 <gribble> 714.0495867768594
2081 2013-04-19 18:32:19 <saracen> You can just privmsg the bot if you want to play :P
2082 2013-04-19 18:32:24 <Banan> oh
2083 2013-04-19 18:35:14 <jgarzik> Wow, poor ozcoin :(
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2125 2013-04-19 19:25:10 <saivann__> Spamming for ACKs  for the "Secure your wallet" page - https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/118
2126 2013-04-19 19:25:26 <saivann__> As more and more people starts using Bitcoin, I think this is an important one
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2133 2013-04-19 19:27:45 <sipa> saivann__: under password, i would mention explicitly that losing your password is irrevocably losing your coins
2134 2013-04-19 19:27:49 robbak has joined
2135 2013-04-19 19:27:53 <sipa> unless that's already mentioned somewhere
2136 2013-04-19 19:28:01 <sipa> sorry, just read further!
2137 2013-04-19 19:28:23 <saivann__> sipa : That is done, but should it be more visible in the title perhaps?
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2160 2013-04-19 20:14:46 <HM2> https://twitter.com/sdt_intel/status/325289093170864129
2161 2013-04-19 20:16:01 <HM2> GCC is pretty much done in the C++11 dept as well
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2166 2013-04-19 20:18:34 <wumpus> yeah as usual it's probably MSVC++ trailing behind gcc and clang
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2170 2013-04-19 20:26:44 <HM2> you can use Clang with MSVS though
2171 2013-04-19 20:27:49 rhodon has joined
2172 2013-04-19 20:27:57 <rhodon> why does LTC have easiest difficulty?  and BTC/NMC hardest?
2173 2013-04-19 20:30:00 <MC1984_> different hash function
2174 2013-04-19 20:30:09 <rhodon> ah ok thx!
2175 2013-04-19 20:30:38 <MC1984_> and bitcoin has much more power even adjusted for that anyway
2176 2013-04-19 20:31:13 <rhodon> yea
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2196 2013-04-19 20:49:04 <Plornt> ALTNICK!Plornt@cpc11-bexl7-2-0-cust189.2-3.cable.virginmedia.com|Bit of a random request, trying to auth into mtgox api, need to use a null character to join the path and data...
2197 2013-04-19 20:49:07 <Plornt> ALTNICK!Plornt@cpc11-bexl7-2-0-cust189.2-3.cable.virginmedia.com|Im using javascript
2198 2013-04-19 20:49:20 <Plornt> ALTNICK!Plornt@cpc11-bexl7-2-0-cust189.2-3.cable.virginmedia.com|and for some reason String.fromCharCode(0) doesnt work
2199 2013-04-19 20:49:37 <Plornt> ALTNICK!Plornt@cpc11-bexl7-2-0-cust189.2-3.cable.virginmedia.com|Throws out my Rest-Sign
2200 2013-04-19 20:49:45 <Plornt> ALTNICK!Plornt@cpc11-bexl7-2-0-cust189.2-3.cable.virginmedia.com|and thats the only thing I think it could be
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2219 2013-04-19 21:12:38 <brocktice> What's the best way to check an old wallet file for coins?
2220 2013-04-19 21:12:46 <brocktice> I got pywallet but it doesn't actually seem to be that helpful
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2223 2013-04-19 21:13:32 <Ry4an> brocktice: shake it and see if it rattles?
2224 2013-04-19 21:13:36 <Ry4an> (sorry, couldn't resist)
2225 2013-04-19 21:13:36 <wumpus> just place it in ~/.bitcoin and start the bitcoin client?
2226 2013-04-19 21:13:56 <brocktice> wumpus: yeah I considered that, but aren't I supposed to wipe the .db files if I do that?
2227 2013-04-19 21:13:59 <brocktice> It's been a while
2228 2013-04-19 21:14:12 <wumpus> (after moving the existing wallet,safely out of the way, of course...)
2229 2013-04-19 21:14:40 <wumpus> nope, you can replace the wallet any time if the client is not running
2230 2013-04-19 21:15:02 <brocktice> ah thanks good to know
2231 2013-04-19 21:15:05 <brocktice> that's probably the easiest
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2233 2013-04-19 21:15:40 <wumpus> another option would be to use pywallet, but then you need to change it to somehow query every address on blockchain.info or so ...
2234 2013-04-19 21:16:45 debiantoruser has joined
2235 2013-04-19 21:16:54 <brocktice> pywallet actually does have an option to query balances
2236 2013-04-19 21:18:15 <wumpus> oh, didn't know that
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2240 2013-04-19 21:23:12 <sipa> etotheipi_, gmaxwell: you here? i'd like to discuss a few things wrt BIP32
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2244 2013-04-19 21:28:45 <gmaxwell> sipa: sorry I haven't been following up on BIP32 enough recently.
2245 2013-04-19 21:28:52 <gmaxwell> (I'm kinda here right now)
2246 2013-04-19 21:29:58 ovidiusoft has joined
2247 2013-04-19 21:30:00 <sipa> gmaxwell: there's three things i still consider: 1) using EC addition instead of multiplication (faster and easier to do in constant time, which may be relevant for private key derivation)
2248 2013-04-19 21:30:41 <sipa> 2) thanke hasn't convinced me about splitting chaincodes and pubkeys yet... the use case seems weak and not worth changing that much for, but it's meaningful
2249 2013-04-19 21:31:00 <gmaxwell> sipa: I don't remember now why I prefered multiplication, I was hoping to remember and haven't.
2250 2013-04-19 21:31:14 <gmaxwell> I don't think I understood the spliting thing.
2251 2013-04-19 21:31:20 ProfMac has joined
2252 2013-04-19 21:31:31 <sipa> he wants to be able to update the pubkeys without changing the chaincode
2253 2013-04-19 21:32:04 <sipa> so chaincodes derive directly from the chaincode and not from the parent pubkey
2254 2013-04-19 21:32:15 <etotheipi_> sipa: also kinda here
2255 2013-04-19 21:32:21 <sipa> i always so the chaincode as a sort of "overflow 256 bits of entropy", and this changes that
2256 2013-04-19 21:32:26 <etotheipi_> EC addition makes me uncomfortable
2257 2013-04-19 21:32:27 <sipa> *saw
2258 2013-04-19 21:32:36 <etotheipi_> but I have no idea why
2259 2013-04-19 21:32:49 <gmaxwell> yes. I was about to say, I remember why we did that: so that you'd not 'lose' entropy through repeated applications of the hmac.
2260 2013-04-19 21:33:30 <gmaxwell> Did thanke give a usecase?
2261 2013-04-19 21:33:36 <sipa> a vague one
2262 2013-04-19 21:33:53 meLon has quit (Quit: leaving)
2263 2013-04-19 21:34:12 <sipa> as pubkeys aren't secret, but chaincodes are (sort of), to update the keys you don't need to encrypt the data, only authenticate it
2264 2013-04-19 21:34:45 <sipa> so being able to update keys without updating chaincodes means you don't need encryption
2265 2013-04-19 21:34:48 <sipa> but, "meh"
2266 2013-04-19 21:35:10 <gmaxwell> What does update in this context mean?  You need the chaincode to derrive more keys.
2267 2013-04-19 21:35:42 <sipa> you have a master which generates keys, and another system that only has a child node
2268 2013-04-19 21:35:47 meLon has joined
2269 2013-04-19 21:35:48 <sipa> you want to 'refresh' the keys
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2271 2013-04-19 21:36:08 <sipa> using his idea, you could just send new pubkeys to the other system, and recompute what derives from it
2272 2013-04-19 21:36:11 meLon has joined
2273 2013-04-19 21:36:15 <sipa> keeping the chaincodes constant
2274 2013-04-19 21:36:18 <gmaxwell> (fwiw, I consider chaincode "private but not secret" and wasn't thinking of protecting them with encryption in the wallet)
2275 2013-04-19 21:36:26 <sipa> same
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2277 2013-04-19 21:37:10 <sipa> though the inversion trick to find a parent privkey from parent pubkey + private privkey makes it meaningful (even if not default) to protect chaincodes better
2278 2013-04-19 21:37:28 <sipa> the worst problem with that was fixed by making the homomorphism optional, though
2279 2013-04-19 21:37:39 meLon has joined
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2281 2013-04-19 21:38:33 <sipa> etotheipi_: if anything, using addition instead of multiplication was suggested by Adam Langley (who wrote some optimized ECC that's included in OpenSSL)
2282 2013-04-19 21:38:42 xenesis_ has joined
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2285 2013-04-19 21:40:04 <etotheipi_> using it for what?
2286 2013-04-19 21:40:09 <gmaxwell> I was about to say that—  ... so, in any case, it sounds to me that thanke's proposal  either wouldn't fit with the bip32 enumeration scheme _OR_ would mean that parallel child branches would be related through common chaincodes. If the first, well, you can accomplish that without changing bip32 by just doing additional point additions on the keys you want to update.... and if the latter I'm uncomfortable with that.
2287 2013-04-19 21:40:33 <etotheipi_> sipa: sorry, Adam is the guy you presente this to?
2288 2013-04-19 21:40:39 <sipa> etotheipi_: one of them
2289 2013-04-19 21:40:41 <etotheipi_> or did he recommend it for some general usecase?
2290 2013-04-19 21:40:42 datagutt is now known as not-a-stalker
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2292 2013-04-19 21:40:48 <sipa> no, just said it would be faster
2293 2013-04-19 21:41:29 <gmaxwell> sipa: I think my multiplication preference basically amounted to "This looks like ECDH, which has been widely studied"
2294 2013-04-19 21:42:56 <sipa> think is, we have a private key, and we can choose to either add a number to it to modify it, or multiply it by a number
2295 2013-04-19 21:42:59 PhantomSpark has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2296 2013-04-19 21:43:20 <sipa> in either case, if the number is known, you can invert the operation
2297 2013-04-19 21:43:42 <sipa> and if the number is not known, both are permutations indistinguishable from random
2298 2013-04-19 21:44:27 sptrp has joined
2299 2013-04-19 21:44:32 <gmaxwell> What was less obvious to me is where you stand when you have many examples of the same permutation. E.g. assuming a constant chaincode.
2300 2013-04-19 21:45:05 <sipa> that is an interesting argument
2301 2013-04-19 21:45:51 <HM2> juicy
2302 2013-04-19 21:46:04 <sipa> but even with constant chaincodes, the argument added/multiplied is not constant
2303 2013-04-19 21:46:15 <sipa> as it depends on the parent pubkey and the index too
2304 2013-04-19 21:46:19 <etotheipi_> that's basically my thought.... EC-multiplication is well studied
2305 2013-04-19 21:46:26 <etotheipi_> or maybe why it makes me uncomfortable
2306 2013-04-19 21:46:32 <etotheipi_> it's a standard operation
2307 2013-04-19 21:46:53 <etotheipi_> addition is not really used like this in crypto systems, is it?
2308 2013-04-19 21:47:00 <sipa> ECDSA does addition
2309 2013-04-19 21:47:06 dansmith_btc has joined
2310 2013-04-19 21:47:07 <brocktice> If I want to help run a node with a lot of connections, what port(s) need to be opened?
2311 2013-04-19 21:47:09 <gmaxwell> sipa: Yes. Though I prefer to the weakened versions to be strong too. Something with a HMAC in the middle is beyond my power to analyze.
2312 2013-04-19 21:47:10 <etotheipi_> I guess, crypto systems don't usually produce deterministic chains of private keys
2313 2013-04-19 21:47:18 <brocktice> and are there any settings I need to change?
2314 2013-04-19 21:47:22 nus-- has joined
2315 2013-04-19 21:47:39 <brocktice> 8333 right?
2316 2013-04-19 21:47:52 <sipa> so reason the other way around: what can't you do with EC mult that you can with EC add?
2317 2013-04-19 21:48:02 * HM2 re-scans BIP32
2318 2013-04-19 21:48:12 <HM2> sipa: divide :P
2319 2013-04-19 21:48:18 <sipa> answer: find the number multiplied with
2320 2013-04-19 21:48:48 nus- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2321 2013-04-19 21:48:50 <sipa> but that number is just the output of a HMAC function - even if you could or couldn't find it, it requires a brute-force of HMAC to be useful
2322 2013-04-19 21:48:53 <sipa> i think
2323 2013-04-19 21:48:53 <saracen> brocktice: I dont think that just opening the port will work, I believe there's cap on how many connections can connect to you. But, you can connect to other nodes with addnode - presumably an unlimited amount
2324 2013-04-19 21:49:00 nus has joined
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2326 2013-04-19 21:49:16 <brocktice> saracen: hmm, because I'd heard there was a need for wide-open nodes that didn't just connect to 8 others
2327 2013-04-19 21:49:17 <gmaxwell> sipa: yes, but lets imagine a weak version of this scheme where we're chaining using only a repeated constant.
2328 2013-04-19 21:49:30 <sipa> gmaxwell: ok
2329 2013-04-19 21:49:41 <gmaxwell> sipa: now I get two of your pubkeys because you link them in a transaction...
2330 2013-04-19 21:49:56 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2331 2013-04-19 21:50:02 <saracen> brocktice: New needs would probably always be a good thing. You could probably grab a list from somewhere of active nodes and addnode them.
2332 2013-04-19 21:50:06 <saracen> nodes*
2333 2013-04-19 21:50:23 <brocktice> saracen: ok, thanks
2334 2013-04-19 21:50:25 <sipa> gmaxwell: so?
2335 2013-04-19 21:50:37 <sipa> gmaxwell: does that mean they can find the parent pubkey?
2336 2013-04-19 21:50:49 <sipa> (that would be an unintended privacy leak)
2337 2013-04-19 21:51:11 <gmaxwell> sipa: Yes, I believe it does. Of course thats only against the weak form.
2338 2013-04-19 21:51:58 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2339 2013-04-19 21:52:01 nus-- has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2340 2013-04-19 21:52:34 <HM2> hmm
2341 2013-04-19 21:52:53 <sipa> gmaxwell: in the proposed weakened form, you'll still have to define a way to mix the index i in
2342 2013-04-19 21:53:16 <sipa> if you make it just do 'add chaincode, add i', it's weak to begin with, without any leak
2343 2013-04-19 21:53:54 <gmaxwell> On a seperate line of argument ... ECDSA signing needs a multiply in any case, so it's not like we can save someone from implementing a reasonable one. (if we would then I'd think that would be an argument for doing this)
2344 2013-04-19 21:53:58 whiterabbit has joined
2345 2013-04-19 21:54:13 <sipa> gmaxwell: we also need a multiply, but only one by the generator
2346 2013-04-19 21:54:20 <sipa> which is easy to optimize and make constant time
2347 2013-04-19 21:54:28 <sipa> same as ECDSA
2348 2013-04-19 21:55:04 <sipa> (if the 'tweak' for the key is addition, public derivation means adding G*tweak to the pubkey)
2349 2013-04-19 21:55:07 <gmaxwell> sipa: in the weak form I assume they are adding the index by just adding the chain code multiple times...  parent+chain, parent+chain+chain, ...
2350 2013-04-19 21:55:29 <gmaxwell> Hm.
2351 2013-04-19 21:55:49 rdymac has joined
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2353 2013-04-19 21:57:07 <etotheipi_> sipa: what is the real use benefit of this? that makes it worth arguing about ECDSA subtleties?
2354 2013-04-19 21:57:09 <etotheipi_> I mean, speed
2355 2013-04-19 21:57:24 <sipa> etotheipi_: speed doesn't concern me that much (but is a nice side benefit)
2356 2013-04-19 21:57:44 <gmaxwell> well, not having to have a general multiplier is interest, esp since you may want constant time operations for immunity to power analysis.
2357 2013-04-19 21:57:56 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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2359 2013-04-19 21:58:03 <HM2> I suppose the alternative to hierarchical wallets is ephemeral keys and DH against a public master key, but then you have secrets in memory
2360 2013-04-19 21:58:13 <sipa> but non-constant time algorithms (which generic EC multiplication typically) can leak timing info
2361 2013-04-19 21:58:39 <sipa> immunity against power analysis is even harder, i suppose
2362 2013-04-19 21:58:43 <gmaxwell> And speed is at least a bit of a concern because we want to avoid making room for excuses like "my hardware wallet only allows you to reuse the same key because multiplies were too slow on my 8 bit microcontroller for usability".
2363 2013-04-19 21:58:52 treaki_ has joined
2364 2013-04-19 21:59:37 <sipa> CodeShark implement EC multiplicatiom (but only with G, afaik) for an 8-bit processor
2365 2013-04-19 21:59:44 <gmaxwell> sipa: IIRC, if you have a truly constant time algorithim you can make constant power hardware by implementing the same circuit with reversable logic.
2366 2013-04-19 22:00:02 treaki__ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2367 2013-04-19 22:00:05 <gmaxwell> codeshark?
2368 2013-04-19 22:00:09 <lianj> entropy pool was too bad on my 8 bit processor
2369 2013-04-19 22:00:13 <gmaxwell> oh "implemented"
2370 2013-04-19 22:00:18 quaz0r has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2372 2013-04-19 22:00:23 <sipa> gmaxwell: right!
2373 2013-04-19 22:00:34 <sipa> today be non-conjugation day
2374 2013-04-19 22:00:40 ToryJujube_ has joined
2375 2013-04-19 22:00:43 <gmaxwell> lianj: we don't need no stinking entropy.
2376 2013-04-19 22:01:16 reCrypto has joined
2377 2013-04-19 22:01:32 <vrs> are there any attacks on weak rngs that are relevant to bitcoin?
2378 2013-04-19 22:01:37 <sipa> if the chaincode was truly considered secret (but it can't be), it could be used as input for EC signing nonce
2379 2013-04-19 22:01:42 <sipa> vrs: yes
2380 2013-04-19 22:01:42 <lianj> oh, talking about deterministic wallets?
2381 2013-04-19 22:01:46 <vrs> like that rsa birthday attack for example
2382 2013-04-19 22:02:02 <vrs> (not bitcoin but the first example that comes to mind)
2383 2013-04-19 22:02:04 <sipa> ECDSA is quite vulnerable to weak RNGs used for seed generation
2384 2013-04-19 22:02:09 <sipa> eh, nonce generation
2385 2013-04-19 22:02:15 <gmaxwell> sipa: A compromise of Il*G + Kpar?
2386 2013-04-19 22:02:27 <sipa> gmaxwell: context?
2387 2013-04-19 22:02:57 <gmaxwell> sipa: replace the generic multiply with just one with the generator.
2388 2013-04-19 22:03:04 Davincij15 has joined
2389 2013-04-19 22:03:30 <sipa> gmaxwell: now you've just changed EC mult with EC add
2390 2013-04-19 22:03:34 <sipa> eh, mult with add
2391 2013-04-19 22:03:37 <gmaxwell> sipa: ya, but you can H(secret||message) for the nonce.
2392 2013-04-19 22:03:55 <HM2> "private deriviation" seems like a bit of a hack
2393 2013-04-19 22:04:25 <HM2> *derivation
2394 2013-04-19 22:04:33 <sipa> gmaxwell: i never got answer from Dan about that, but i wondered whether there's any reason why Ed25519 doesn't just use the exact private key for nonce generation
2395 2013-04-19 22:04:35 <gmaxwell> HM2: why? I mean, thats the kind of thing everyone did for "determinstic" generation before this homorphism was proposed.
2396 2013-04-19 22:04:57 robbak has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2397 2013-04-19 22:05:08 <sipa> gmaxwell: if pubkey derivation is K_par + I_l*G, then privkey derivation is k_par + I_l
2398 2013-04-19 22:05:08 owowo has quit (Quit: sayonara)
2399 2013-04-19 22:05:16 <sipa> gmaxwell: which is what i'm proposing all along
2400 2013-04-19 22:05:23 robbak has joined
2401 2013-04-19 22:05:26 <gmaxwell> oh right. Hm.
2402 2013-04-19 22:06:05 nomailin1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2403 2013-04-19 22:06:42 <sipa> and no two nodes - ever - should have the same I_l, and it finding it doesn't reveal anything about the input to the HMAC
2404 2013-04-19 22:07:31 <HM2> hmm
2405 2013-04-19 22:08:18 <gmaxwell> I am starting to convince myself on the basis of making it power analysis resistant that there is actually a justification for the change.
2406 2013-04-19 22:08:33 i2pRelay has joined
2407 2013-04-19 22:08:44 <sipa> i'm sure generic EC multiplication is possible with constant-time operations too
2408 2013-04-19 22:09:02 <sipa> but it's harder, as the algorithm has a few special cases that branch
2409 2013-04-19 22:09:17 <sipa> (adding an EC point to itself, or to its inverse)
2410 2013-04-19 22:09:22 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
2411 2013-04-19 22:10:14 <gmaxwell> Right, but implementation complexity matters. just having to have a constant time *G means we aren't incresing the implementation cost over signing.
2412 2013-04-19 22:10:25 <sipa> true
2413 2013-04-19 22:10:30 <philihp> dear #bitcoin-dev, i am waiting on a transaction to go through with 6 confirmations. am i correct in that each confirmation takes 10 minutes?
2414 2013-04-19 22:10:39 <philihp> or is it variable?
2415 2013-04-19 22:10:39 <sipa> philihp: after the first one, yes
2416 2013-04-19 22:10:48 <sipa> on average 1 per 10 minutes
2417 2013-04-19 22:10:59 <sipa> how long the first one takes can't be predicted accurately
2418 2013-04-19 22:11:05 bibbybob has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2419 2013-04-19 22:11:24 <philihp> what causes the variance?
2420 2013-04-19 22:11:35 <sipa> blocks are only mined on average one per 10 minutes
2421 2013-04-19 22:11:39 <sipa> with large variance
2422 2013-04-19 22:11:56 <sipa> philihp: perhaps this is more for #bitcoin
2423 2013-04-19 22:12:06 <gmaxwell> philihp: the process is randomized because it is decenteralized and there can be no central party to coordinate all the participants.
2424 2013-04-19 22:12:40 <philihp> sipa, probably. thanks for the answer.
2425 2013-04-19 22:12:53 <diki> this is a first Sorry, SMF was unable to connect to the database.
2426 2013-04-19 22:12:58 <HM2> do the preimage attacks on sha512 not have an impact on this BIP32 algorithm?
2427 2013-04-19 22:13:01 reCrypto has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2428 2013-04-19 22:13:18 <HM2> especially since you're only using 1 half for the critical derivation
2429 2013-04-19 22:13:33 <HM2> (leaf nodes with no further chaining)
2430 2013-04-19 22:14:26 <sipa> ow, 42-round SHA512 (instead of 80-round) can be attacked in time 2^502
2431 2013-04-19 22:14:29 * sipa is scared
2432 2013-04-19 22:14:32 quaz0r has joined
2433 2013-04-19 22:14:40 <HM2> oh
2434 2013-04-19 22:14:53 <gmaxwell> There are only reduced round attacks, we use HMAC-SHA512 not SHA-512, and the general construction should be secure (not not private) even if the hmac is replaced with a trivial function (e.g. mod P)
2435 2013-04-19 22:15:08 <gmaxwell> er s/not not/but not/
2436 2013-04-19 22:15:24 <sipa> that's maybe an interesting way for justifying addition or not
2437 2013-04-19 22:15:24 <gmaxwell> er erll but perhaps not.
2438 2013-04-19 22:15:31 richcollins has joined
2439 2013-04-19 22:15:34 <sipa> assume HMAC-SHA512 is completely proken
2440 2013-04-19 22:16:17 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2441 2013-04-19 22:16:36 <sipa> so an attacker can now observe two pubkeys used for signing
2442 2013-04-19 22:16:48 i2pRelay has joined
2443 2013-04-19 22:16:56 <sipa> with a low-cost bruteforce he can guess the indices of the pubkeys for derivation
2444 2013-04-19 22:18:06 * Luke-Jr kicks buggy pulltester
2445 2013-04-19 22:18:16 ielo has joined
2446 2013-04-19 22:18:50 <gaantr2> I am trying to use bitcoinj-0.8.jar and I am getting a java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: org.bitcoinj.wallet.Protos$Wallet.hasEncryptionParameters
2447 2013-04-19 22:18:56 <gaantr2> anyone know what that is about?
2448 2013-04-19 22:19:04 reCrypto has joined
2449 2013-04-19 22:19:07 <sipa> so both keys are K_i and K_j, == K_par + G*f(K_par,c_par,i/j), or their difference is G*(f(K_par,c_par,i) - f(K_par,c_par,j))
2450 2013-04-19 22:19:34 <sipa> gmaxwell: i don't see how that's even helpful
2451 2013-04-19 22:19:50 <sipa> you can't divide by G either
2452 2013-04-19 22:19:59 <gmaxwell> Indeed.
2453 2013-04-19 22:20:21 <sipa> so, what in what broken scenario would multiplying gain you anything at all?
2454 2013-04-19 22:20:28 <gmaxwell> I realized that before when you bought me a clue and pointed out that we were always talking about foo*G+pub
2455 2013-04-19 22:20:40 dansmith_btc has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2456 2013-04-19 22:21:06 Diapolis has joined
2457 2013-04-19 22:21:08 <sipa> etotheipi_: convinced?
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2461 2013-04-19 22:21:35 <HM2> so these wallets are only useful for payment, right? you can never share any of the private keys for derived wallets, because if your chaincode is compromised you're back to square 0
2462 2013-04-19 22:21:40 <etotheipi_> sorry sipa, haven't really been paying attention
2463 2013-04-19 22:22:14 <sipa> etotheipi_: we've been trying to find scenarios in which using addition would allow an attacker something he can't with multiplication
2464 2013-04-19 22:22:29 rhodon has left ()
2465 2013-04-19 22:22:39 <sipa> and the important observation is that it's not actually an addition in the pubkey case, but addition with a number multiplied by G
2466 2013-04-19 22:22:51 <gmaxwell> HM2: thats why we will use the other derrivation type for the top level chains. Effectively you should treat a whole chain as having the secuirty of one address, but the privacy of many.
2467 2013-04-19 22:22:52 one_zero has joined
2468 2013-04-19 22:23:08 <sipa> so finding the number still requires 'division' by G, which is just as impossible as dividing by an arbitrary point
2469 2013-04-19 22:23:30 <gmaxwell> Which is the same assumption that ecdsa depends on.
2470 2013-04-19 22:23:31 orblivion has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2471 2013-04-19 22:23:35 <etotheipi_> sipa: sorry, let me reread what you said
2472 2013-04-19 22:23:40 <etotheipi_> but yes, I see your point
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2475 2013-04-19 22:25:07 <sipa> there is a 3rd (much smaller, just in serialization basically) proposed by grau, namely adding the maximum number of children of a node to it
2476 2013-04-19 22:25:08 <HM2> Hmm
2477 2013-04-19 22:25:46 <sipa> i dislike that on grounds of 'where does it end?', namely will you also add how many levels of derivation beneath? public or private? how many keys in those derivation?
2478 2013-04-19 22:26:26 <sipa> it's perhaps useful at the very lowest level
2479 2013-04-19 22:27:05 capuchin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2480 2013-04-19 22:27:23 <gmaxwell> The number of topologies is infinite, so, meh.
2481 2013-04-19 22:27:54 capuchin has joined
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2486 2013-04-19 22:29:00 gbg is now known as [269]gbg
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2491 2013-04-19 22:33:22 <HM2> my concern is how people will use this system
2492 2013-04-19 22:33:34 <sipa> that's a very valid concern :)
2493 2013-04-19 22:34:00 <HM2> having one layer of derived wallets all under your control is one thing, but what if someone gets the idea of sharing derived extended keys for a deep hierarchy of middle managers?
2494 2013-04-19 22:34:07 joesmoe has quit (Read error: No route to host)
2495 2013-04-19 22:34:19 <HM2> i suppose you use the private derivation for that to raise a security barrier
2496 2013-04-19 22:34:28 <sipa> HM2: then they should private derivation for those too
2497 2013-04-19 22:34:30 <Luke-Jr> I intend to use HD wallets to implement identities <.<
2498 2013-04-19 22:35:09 <Luke-Jr> or to encourage it anyhow
2499 2013-04-19 22:35:22 <sipa> HM2: that's pretty much the reason why private derivation is not tied to the first level, just a default
2500 2013-04-19 22:35:44 Sealy has joined
2501 2013-04-19 22:36:03 <HM2> why is there a 0x00 pad byte to make sure the privkey "aligns with the public version"?
2502 2013-04-19 22:36:11 <HM2> is that just so people can use a static buffer?
2503 2013-04-19 22:36:16 amiller has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2505 2013-04-19 22:36:29 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2506 2013-04-19 22:36:40 <sipa> HM2: even though it shouldn't be a concern for HMAC, it's essentially to avoid prefix problems
2507 2013-04-19 22:36:51 _caedes has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2508 2013-04-19 22:37:09 <sipa> if you have the private key there directly, it could be identical to the derivation with some pubkey, minus one character
2509 2013-04-19 22:37:32 <sipa> there's also a number that's guaranteed to be different after it
2510 2013-04-19 22:37:48 Mr_G has quit ()
2511 2013-04-19 22:37:49 <sipa> but still, it's neater imho to align the data, and hava one byte of padding in both cases
2512 2013-04-19 22:37:56 <HM2> the chain code would also be different?
2513 2013-04-19 22:38:09 <sipa> no two nodes should ever have the same chaincode
2514 2013-04-19 22:38:26 amiller has joined
2515 2013-04-19 22:38:47 <HM2> hmm
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2520 2013-04-19 22:42:52 <sipa> etotheipi_: reread? :p
2521 2013-04-19 22:43:41 <HM2> depending on your setup it might be reasonable not to store 'i' for every derived key. you can easily recover 'i' if you know the root/parent key
2522 2013-04-19 22:45:18 <HM2> oh dang
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2528 2013-04-19 22:52:18 <HM2> sipa: the wiki says Il should be considered invalid if >= n or = 0
2529 2013-04-19 22:52:24 <HM2> is 1 not a bad value as well?
2530 2013-04-19 22:52:46 <HM2> *reconsidered/skipped
2531 2013-04-19 22:52:49 <sipa> why?
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2537 2013-04-19 22:54:24 <HM2> ki is equal to IL*kpar
2538 2013-04-19 22:54:35 <HM2> IL = 1, then ki = kpar
2539 2013-04-19 22:54:41 <sipa> yes, why would that be invalid?
2540 2013-04-19 22:54:49 <sipa> or skew probabilities?
2541 2013-04-19 22:55:01 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
2542 2013-04-19 22:55:11 <sipa> if 1 is a special value, why would 2 not be?
2543 2013-04-19 22:55:18 <sipa> or -1
2544 2013-04-19 22:55:22 <sipa> or 42
2545 2013-04-19 22:55:28 <HM2> because it'd make the child address the same as the parents
2546 2013-04-19 22:55:36 <phantomcircuit> sipa, because 1 is 1 and 2 isn't 1
2547 2013-04-19 22:55:59 <sipa> HM2: only leaf nodes have addresses, really
2548 2013-04-19 22:56:16 rainworm has joined
2549 2013-04-19 22:56:24 <sipa> HM2: and yes, that'd be easily detectable, but so is any other number you'd care to check specifically
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2552 2013-04-19 22:59:20 johnsoft has joined
2553 2013-04-19 22:59:36 <HM2> I give up finding flaws then :P
2554 2013-04-19 23:02:21 <moore> is it really reasonable to use only 128bits of entropy for the master key?
2555 2013-04-19 23:02:31 reCrypto has joined
2556 2013-04-19 23:02:46 <jrmithdobbs> much more important things are protected by much less
2557 2013-04-19 23:03:14 Impaler has joined
2558 2013-04-19 23:03:27 <sipa> moore: i mainly put it there to avoid people using less than that
2559 2013-04-19 23:03:44 <moore> jrmithdobbs, well that on it's own is not convincing and also it is not clear what oppressions are used in thous cases
2560 2013-04-19 23:04:35 <sipa> less than 128 = dangerous, more than 256 = useless, more than 512 = stupid
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2562 2013-04-19 23:04:42 <moore> I was resonantly admonished by some one I respect to use *at least* 300 bits as the input to a PRNG which this feels a lot like
2563 2013-04-19 23:05:08 i2pRelay has joined
2564 2013-04-19 23:05:31 <moore> but my cryptanalysis skills are week
2565 2013-04-19 23:05:48 <moore> so I just try and do exactly what I am told
2566 2013-04-19 23:06:39 <gmaxwell> 128 tends to look weak if you assume an attacker with a big quantum computer... but in that case ECDSA is totally hosed.
2567 2013-04-19 23:06:47 <moore> why to you say more the 256 = useless. I have been trying to find references to how much entropy is enough but can't.
2568 2013-04-19 23:07:07 joesmoe has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2569 2013-04-19 23:07:25 <sipa> moore: since our private keys are only 256 bits
2570 2013-04-19 23:07:33 <sipa> (and provide 128 bits security)
2571 2013-04-19 23:07:37 <moore> I would agree with that in the case that the function is perfect but as far as I know no hash functions are proven correct
2572 2013-04-19 23:07:57 <moore> ah so this is a weakest link in the chain argument.
2573 2013-04-19 23:07:57 <gmaxwell> If you allow arbritary weakness then no amount of input is enough.
2574 2013-04-19 23:08:22 <kadoban> moore: there's almost nothing in cryptology that's proven correct, one-time-pads...that's like it
2575 2013-04-19 23:08:40 sptrp has left ()
2576 2013-04-19 23:08:40 <gmaxwell> I'd assume that our own use of BIP32 would use 256 or 512 bits there. IIRC 128 was offered as a minimum.
2577 2013-04-19 23:08:48 panzer has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2578 2013-04-19 23:09:01 <gmaxwell> kadoban: there are tons of things proven correct, assuming you have a hash function which is a random oracle. :P
2579 2013-04-19 23:09:12 <kadoban> hehe
2580 2013-04-19 23:09:17 <moore> kadoban, that is not true, there is a increasing amount of proven encryption, just not hashes.
2581 2013-04-19 23:09:28 <kadoban> moore: is there? name one
2582 2013-04-19 23:09:35 Azetab has joined
2583 2013-04-19 23:09:35 <sipa> 'proven' is a very vague term
2584 2013-04-19 23:09:43 joesmoe has joined
2585 2013-04-19 23:09:47 <sipa> what property is proved?
2586 2013-04-19 23:10:06 <kadoban> yes, that's true, i did word that quite badly
2587 2013-04-19 23:10:11 <moore> gmaxwell, there is even progress on proving hash functions for use in a random oracle.
2588 2013-04-19 23:10:24 <moore> ( but it is still research )
2589 2013-04-19 23:10:27 <gmaxwell> moore: if only the ones with proofs were not totally insecure! :P
2590 2013-04-19 23:10:38 panzer has joined
2591 2013-04-19 23:11:39 <gmaxwell> (E.g. MuHASH)
2592 2013-04-19 23:11:47 nomailin1 has joined
2593 2013-04-19 23:11:59 Prattler has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2594 2013-04-19 23:12:21 <gmaxwell> (oh actually maybe I'm thinking of EcOH)
2595 2013-04-19 23:12:37 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2596 2013-04-19 23:13:00 <moore> so one other question why the use of sha512? just good enough and convenient?
2597 2013-04-19 23:13:09 i2pRelay has joined
2598 2013-04-19 23:13:55 <gmaxwell> Standard well analyzed function which is fast and widely available.
2599 2013-04-19 23:14:08 Sealy has quit (Quit: Sealy)
2600 2013-04-19 23:14:09 <sipa> and it has the property we want (512 bits output, a bit larger input)
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2603 2013-04-19 23:15:26 <zw> so a little off topic, but, has it been documented taht the data from an ata drive that has been written over once or twice is recoverable
2604 2013-04-19 23:15:33 <gmaxwell> And its use should guard against unforseen attacks, since they'd also internally have to compute a preimage of sha512.
2605 2013-04-19 23:15:49 <meLon> Any way to test addnode and seednode on startup?  I'm not seeing it connect to any additional nodes :\ (bitcoind linux)
2606 2013-04-19 23:15:58 <moore> k
2607 2013-04-19 23:16:13 <HM2> zw: allowing for filesystems and bad sector remapping etc, it's generally a myth and paranoia that erased data can be recovered from magnetic drives
2608 2013-04-19 23:16:30 <HM2> but if there's concern, i recommend thermite
2609 2013-04-19 23:16:31 <gmaxwell> zw: ignoring remapping... thats not generally believed to be the case for modern drives, but people are not sure and so using encryption always is recommended.
2610 2013-04-19 23:16:36 <moore> I have been looking at all the djb stuff and some of it is really interesting but at to cost of being different
2611 2013-04-19 23:16:36 <kadoban> meLon: i believe there's a getpeerinfo RPC call, that might give you some info on addnode. seednode i'm not so sure
2612 2013-04-19 23:16:36 <sipa> meLon: use -connect for that
2613 2013-04-19 23:16:48 <zw> there's not, i've just read many theories
2614 2013-04-19 23:16:56 <zw> i guess they're just that?
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2616 2013-04-19 23:17:14 <sipa> meLon: -connect means "connect just exactly to what i say", while addnode just tries to keep a connection open to that node
2617 2013-04-19 23:17:20 <moore> thanks for answering my questions this is a really interesting proposal.
2618 2013-04-19 23:17:25 <sipa> -seednode does the same, but only to fetch IPs
2619 2013-04-19 23:17:41 <sipa> CodeShark: how fast was you G*n on that 8-bit CPU?
2620 2013-04-19 23:17:45 <sipa> *your
2621 2013-04-19 23:18:07 <gmaxwell> zw: certantly older technology was recoverable... by more advanced stuff.. the issue today is that modern drives push right against the boundary of what can be stored and read... and so effectively you're demanding that the drive basically have >> 2x information density with a sufficiently advanced reader.
2622 2013-04-19 23:18:20 diki has quit ()
2623 2013-04-19 23:18:22 <CodeShark> sipa: the fastest I got it (it could still be improved a bit) was about 10 seconds)
2624 2013-04-19 23:18:26 <meLon> Thanks kadoban and sipa.  The problem is I have a *lot* of addnode and when I start bitcoind I still only get 1 connection, then two.. I get to 10 pretty quickly but then it dies off :\
2625 2013-04-19 23:18:57 <gmaxwell> meLon: don't use a lot of addnodes it's abusive to the network and does you no good.
2626 2013-04-19 23:18:58 <sipa> meLon: well it'll never ever connect to more than 8 outgoing
2627 2013-04-19 23:19:34 <meLon> My intent wasn't to have tooooo many.  I would like to start bitcoind and have 20 connections immediately.
2628 2013-04-19 23:19:43 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2629 2013-04-19 23:19:47 <sipa> meLon: that implies you need at least 12 incoming connections
2630 2013-04-19 23:19:56 <sipa> and it takes a while before others know about you
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2633 2013-04-19 23:20:12 <meLon> Cool.  I thought you could get more than 8 by setting yourself up in the config
2634 2013-04-19 23:20:23 <sipa> no
2635 2013-04-19 23:20:24 clarkm_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2636 2013-04-19 23:20:27 <meLon> But, I understand now.  Thanks for explaining it to me
2637 2013-04-19 23:20:39 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2638 2013-04-19 23:20:42 <meLon> And thanks for your discussion on anti dos, guys :D
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2640 2013-04-19 23:21:09 <zw> ty gmaxwell, HM2
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2643 2013-04-19 23:23:14 <moore> kadoban, sipa  O and what I meant by proven is lots of crypto stuff has profs that go given these things hold true then this function has these proprieties
2644 2013-04-19 23:23:26 <sipa> yes, obviously
2645 2013-04-19 23:23:52 <moore> but widely use hash functions are tend to be of the form "this looks hard to break"
2646 2013-04-19 23:24:06 <moore> where there is not a formal analysis.
2647 2013-04-19 23:24:40 <gmaxwell> moore: there is an enormous amount of formal analysis on sha2 family.
2648 2013-04-19 23:24:45 <moore> ie one were all proprieties arise from so givens.
2649 2013-04-19 23:25:01 <moore> ya but it is of a different nature
2650 2013-04-19 23:25:22 <moore> it is of the we have tried all these attacks and failed kind.
2651 2013-04-19 23:25:23 <gmaxwell> They do not, however, reduce the security to any nice and concise statements. But as I mentioned before there as hash functions that do but which are _less_ secure against other kinds of analysis.
2652 2013-04-19 23:25:46 <moore> but I accept that I could have missed something hear. I am a little out of my depth.
2653 2013-04-19 23:25:55 <kadoban> moore: a whole bunch of crypto is based on that was my point. even when you get down to basics like discrete logarithms...we have no idea if that's actually hard or not, we just know we haven't solved it yet
2654 2013-04-19 23:26:05 <gmaxwell> moore: not just failed, but also shown some kinds of attacks generally do not work.
2655 2013-04-19 23:26:22 <kadoban> moore: same with most of asymmetric crypto, same with AES type stuff, same with just about everthing
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2660 2013-04-19 23:28:54 <moore> my point is only that there is a class deference between "proven" crypto which is "if x is true then y is true" and the weaker set that hashes tend to be in which is "x is robust against x, y, z"
2661 2013-04-19 23:29:13 pizzacat has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2662 2013-04-19 23:29:14 i2pRelay has joined
2663 2013-04-19 23:29:38 <sipa> how is the second not a special case of the first?
2664 2013-04-19 23:30:24 Irencus has joined
2665 2013-04-19 23:31:21 clarkm has joined
2666 2013-04-19 23:31:28 <gmaxwell> Speaking of ECOH, it's a cryptographic hash function basically based purely on point addition.
2667 2013-04-19 23:32:02 <moore> well if in you statement " if x is true y is true", you use something complicated like "no one can break my hash function" then they start to look the same
2668 2013-04-19 23:32:43 <moore> but if your x is "there is no better approach then brute force to factor numbers" it is different
2669 2013-04-19 23:33:27 <moore> in the second case there might be features one did not think about that weaken a function
2670 2013-04-19 23:33:49 <moore> but I feel like I am keeping you all from more important things at this point in the conversation
2671 2013-04-19 23:33:59 <moore> so I will quite my self
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2688 2013-04-19 23:47:16 <gmaxwell> sipa: I don't see how the attack on ECOH could do us any harm, however.
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2691 2013-04-19 23:48:48 Bohren has joined
2692 2013-04-19 23:49:13 <meLon> Are addnode entries connected to randomly, or sequentially through the conf file?
2693 2013-04-19 23:51:43 johnsoft has joined
2694 2013-04-19 23:52:49 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2695 2013-04-19 23:53:19 johnsoft1 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2696 2013-04-19 23:53:21 i2pRelay has joined
2697 2013-04-19 23:54:42 Azetab has joined
2698 2013-04-19 23:54:53 Lophie has joined
2699 2013-04-19 23:55:24 <Lophie> Hey awesome guys, Anyone here is up for a small discussion?
2700 2013-04-19 23:55:53 <sipa> about?
2701 2013-04-19 23:56:06 <Lophie> propagation time as discussed and proposed by satoshi
2702 2013-04-19 23:56:18 <Lophie> I have small remarks about them
2703 2013-04-19 23:56:23 <Lophie> interested?
2704 2013-04-19 23:56:47 <sipa> that's hard to tell, without knowing your remarks :p
2705 2013-04-19 23:56:59 <Lophie> lol ok I will just dive in
2706 2013-04-19 23:57:13 <Lophie> so I was reading the PDF again as sual (who doesnt right?)
2707 2013-04-19 23:58:51 <zw> test
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2710 2013-04-19 23:59:56 Diapolis_ has joined