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   5 2013-04-20 00:01:08 <Lophie_> sorry, disconnected for a sec there
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   7 2013-04-20 00:01:24 <Lophie_> :S
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   9 2013-04-20 00:01:43 <saracen> (you were reading the pdf again as usual...)
  10 2013-04-20 00:02:33 <sipa> who doesnt right?
  11 2013-04-20 00:02:44 <zw> i gotta go and this is like a nail biter for some reason
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  14 2013-04-20 00:03:40 <saracen> I'm intrigued too. It's the first time I've seen anybody come here having already read the PDF
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  17 2013-04-20 00:04:33 <saracen> Maybe he's having problems with propagation time
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  20 2013-04-20 00:06:20 <zw> without knowing his remarks, it really is hard to tell eh
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  32 2013-04-20 00:11:56 <sipa> gmaxwell: there is _something_ to be learnt from observed public keys in the chain, assuming no hashing in between
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  34 2013-04-20 00:13:22 <sipa> if you see several pubkeys as inputs in a tx, you can subtract them from eachother, try to compute the 'gcd' from them (try some small numbers, checking whether multiplying the result with constants results in a different difference, ...)
  35 2013-04-20 00:14:11 <sipa> doing that on many transactions, you could reasonably be able to find common gcds among different transactions, making it much more likely they are from the same sender
  36 2013-04-20 00:14:27 <vrs> that's the same as the rsa birthday attack, isn't it?
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  41 2013-04-20 00:16:53 <vrs> https://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/15/technology/researchers-find-flaw-in-an-online-encryption-method.html?hp&_r=0 http://eprint.iacr.org/2012/064.pdf this one
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  45 2013-04-20 00:18:44 <vrs> I don't know how ecdsa works so I don't know how well it translates
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  82 2013-04-20 00:45:31 <dino__> sipa what's a "gcd"
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  84 2013-04-20 00:46:00 <vrs> greatest common denominator, used in euclid's algorithm for example
  85 2013-04-20 00:46:21 <vrs> err computed by*
  86 2013-04-20 00:46:26 <dino__> vrs That's interesting
  87 2013-04-20 00:46:41 <vrs> greatest common divisor*
  88 2013-04-20 00:46:53 <vrs> my english, meh
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  90 2013-04-20 00:47:37 <dino__> I always wondered if there was a way to deduce some common ownership amongst addresses.  For example, if someone pays me 10 BTC, I can look at the transaction and see the inputs for those BTC - might be a few other transactions used as input to mine, with some change going back.  Would be interesting to see the source, or path of those coins.
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  92 2013-04-20 00:48:36 <dino__> If someone stole a bunch of coins, there is some kind of transaction trail - probably passing through a bunch of addresses.  Might be interesting to try to follow the path and look for relationships.
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  95 2013-04-20 00:49:30 <vrs> yes, that's been done
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 100 2013-04-20 00:50:21 <vrs> taint analysis
 101 2013-04-20 00:50:28 <dino__> vrs anywhere I can read about that?
 102 2013-04-20 00:50:41 <dino__> I'm sure it gets really messy, very quickly, but might be interesting.
 103 2013-04-20 00:51:05 <moore> one can build things like this: http://bitcoin-r.nfshost.com/
 104 2013-04-20 00:51:16 <moore> I have a not so good tool that built that
 105 2013-04-20 00:51:32 <moore> it shows the local graph around a given address
 106 2013-04-20 00:53:17 <vrs> dino__: yes it does become really messy
 107 2013-04-20 00:53:36 <vrs>  https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Anonymity https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mixing_service
 108 2013-04-20 00:54:08 <dino__> vrs  of course, mixing kills tracing, but how many people use it?
 109 2013-04-20 00:54:50 <vrs> personally I'd only use it for separating identities when I absolutely have to move bitcoins between them
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 111 2013-04-20 00:55:28 <vrs> so, I don't know, probably relatively few
 112 2013-04-20 00:56:55 <vrs> I don't know if people have attempted to measure the mixing services yet
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 120 2013-04-20 01:02:18 <gmaxwell> sipa: right, assuming no hash.
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 148 2013-04-20 01:25:23 <zw> the beauty in a good bitcoin system is that it will always be much more incentive to use x computational power to mine new blocks rather than to use it to undermine the system
 149 2013-04-20 01:25:24 <zw> i think
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 156 2013-04-20 01:28:12 <zw> hm i suppose when there's massive complexity and probably if any currency is involved all attacks should be analyzed
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 160 2013-04-20 01:29:54 <zw> that birthday attack is probably possible, but it would take much computation not to mention a certain level of sophistication
 161 2013-04-20 01:30:05 <zw> probably more worthwhile to mine blocks?
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 163 2013-04-20 01:32:35 <gmatteson_> quick question. i was reading - https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Accounts_explained and  this section "Customer creates an account on the website: web server either assigns them a unique customer id number or uses their email address or other unique identifier, calls getaccountaddress "userid" and tells the customer to send to that address to fund their account. " at the bottom of the page, does this mean that the customer
 164 2013-04-20 01:32:37 <zw> perhaps in essense, the security of transactions ect should be somewhat dependant on mining difficulty
 165 2013-04-20 01:33:49 <zw> not that it isn't already
 166 2013-04-20 01:33:52 <zw> ok rant over
 167 2013-04-20 01:34:47 <vrs> gmatteson_: your message was cut off at "does this mean that the customer"
 168 2013-04-20 01:34:48 <gmatteson_> nevermind. I just saw i missed the answer! Bitcoin version 0.3.18 and later implements several RPC methods to maintain separate account balances in a single Bitcoin wallet. The accounts feature makes it easy to create web services that maintain a separate bitcoin balance for each customer. .
 169 2013-04-20 01:35:03 <gmatteson_> does this mean that the customers would all be using the same wallet but different account addresses? that was my question but i found the answer
 170 2013-04-20 01:35:04 <gmatteson_> thanks
 171 2013-04-20 01:35:19 <jspilman> if I have raw transaction hex for a fully signed transaction, but none of the inputs or keys are in bitcoind's blockchain or wallet, if I do 'signrawtransaction <hex>' ... would you expect it to return complete:true?
 172 2013-04-20 01:35:45 <gmatteson_> one last question... what would the JSON command look like using c# to create a new account?
 173 2013-04-20 01:36:17 <gmatteson_> i am able to query the server through the web but i can't seem to find the API to create the account in the wallet
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 177 2013-04-20 01:37:46 <jspilman> or is there another CLI command that can check if a rawtransaction is fully signed and valid without sending it?
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 180 2013-04-20 01:39:03 <jspilman> oh, looks like I need to pass in all the inputs to 'signrawtransaction' for it to check completeness, which makes sense of course
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 183 2013-04-20 01:44:34 <phantomcircuit> gmatteson_, do NOT use the accounts feature
 184 2013-04-20 01:44:38 <gmaxwell> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/bestblocks.html < somewhat better but not as much as I'd hoped
 185 2013-04-20 01:44:59 <phantomcircuit> seriously
 186 2013-04-20 01:45:00 <phantomcircuit> just dont
 187 2013-04-20 01:45:08 <gmatteson_> okay, what would you suggest? is there a better way?
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 189 2013-04-20 01:45:28 <phantomcircuit> gmatteson_, keep a mapping of users to addresses in your normal database
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 191 2013-04-20 01:45:55 <gmatteson_> yup, i have that part. each user account is being tracked in a SQL database using UserID which is a unique number
 192 2013-04-20 01:46:29 <phantomcircuit> gmatteson_, then just simply have a transaction list
 193 2013-04-20 01:46:47 <gmatteson_> so then i would just create a new address in the server's wallet based on the userID or their logon name
 194 2013-04-20 01:47:10 <phantomcircuit> gmatteson_, just create a new address and assign it to the user in your database
 195 2013-04-20 01:47:30 <phantomcircuit> do not try to use the accounts feature in bitcoin to keep track of users bitcoin balances
 196 2013-04-20 01:47:46 <phantomcircuit> it doesn't work the way you expect it to and is effectively impossible to maintain current backups
 197 2013-04-20 01:48:01 <gmatteson_> okay. thanks! if i wanted to return the balance of a users account, would i have to query the transaction list?
 198 2013-04-20 01:48:06 <gmatteson_> okay, thanks for the information
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 211 2013-04-20 01:56:01 <gmatteson_> phantomcircuit, do you happen to know what API to use to create a new address?
 212 2013-04-20 01:56:11 <gmatteson_> i dont see anything listed in the API reference
 213 2013-04-20 01:56:21 <iwilcox> getnewaddress IIRC
 214 2013-04-20 01:56:25 <phantomcircuit> getnewaddress
 215 2013-04-20 01:57:01 <gmatteson_> thank you guys, very helpful
 216 2013-04-20 01:58:16 <phantomcircuit> gmatteson_, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_Calls_list
 217 2013-04-20 01:58:41 <skinnkavaj> can anyone donate some testnet coins?
 218 2013-04-20 01:58:41 <gmatteson_> excellent. thanks. ill let you know how it turns out
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 224 2013-04-20 02:03:55 <MC1984_> skinnkavaj wat for
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 232 2013-04-20 02:16:30 <diki> I was able to create my own C implementation of constructing the merkle hash for a genesis block. I can do it just fine with Bitcoin's timestamp and pubkey, but when I tried with some alt-coins for verification, it produced different results. I then saw that the other chains have an apostrophe that appear to get replaced with some bytes
 233 2013-04-20 02:16:38 <diki> can anyone tell me if there is something like that?
 234 2013-04-20 02:17:02 <diki> *the other chains have an apostrophe in their timestamp message
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 239 2013-04-20 02:20:46 <fishfish> hey guys, anyone aware of anyone building a distributed, decentralized exchange? I love the idea but I don't see how it would work OTC
 240 2013-04-20 02:21:08 <diki> I read about Buttercoin
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 242 2013-04-20 02:21:55 <diki> I'd love to see how anyone can move fiat in and out from a decentralized exchange
 243 2013-04-20 02:22:07 <fishfish> well that's the thing isn't it
 244 2013-04-20 02:22:10 <fishfish> :)
 245 2013-04-20 02:22:17 <fishfish> i don't get that part at all
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 248 2013-04-20 02:22:44 <fishfish> i mean in a 'don't end up in jail for a million year for breaching AML' sorta way
 249 2013-04-20 02:23:22 <diki> which means a decentralized exchange can probably(and I do emphasize on this word, as I might be wrong) enable users to trade only between btc and altcoins
 250 2013-04-20 02:23:39 <phantomcircuit> fishfish, it's not possible
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 255 2013-04-20 02:24:59 <phantomcircuit> fishfish, fundamentally a "trade" is an agreement between parties to actually exchange a specific amount at a specific price
 256 2013-04-20 02:25:06 <phantomcircuit> decentralizing that is possible
 257 2013-04-20 02:25:18 <phantomcircuit> but decentralizing the actual exchange is complicated and risky
 258 2013-04-20 02:25:29 <phantomcircuit> centralized versions will always win out
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 260 2013-04-20 02:25:42 <fishfish> thats indeed my current understanding of things
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 263 2013-04-20 02:26:35 <phantomcircuit> fishfish, good on you then :)
 264 2013-04-20 02:26:41 <fishfish> shame
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 266 2013-04-20 02:27:12 <fishfish> because i see centralization of power as the demise of btc, or at least a good part of what will prevent its entry in the mainstream.
 267 2013-04-20 02:28:01 <phantomcircuit> fishfish, the joke is that as bitcoin becomes larger the exchanges should become less and less important
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 269 2013-04-20 02:29:25 <fishfish> you mean in terms of transactions processed? through merchant adoption?
 270 2013-04-20 02:30:14 <diki> phantomcircuit:Exchanges will not become less important
 271 2013-04-20 02:30:20 <diki> they will become more important in fact
 272 2013-04-20 02:30:47 <diki> Exchanging say Bitcoin for gold or silver, or other alt-coins
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 275 2013-04-20 02:31:31 <fishfish> what i'm particularly concerned about, is that if the money supply is irrelevant, because of the 8 decimals, then why is satoshi+team holding on to 1m btc, and why are the what's their face brothers owning 1% of the coinage in circulation.
 276 2013-04-20 02:31:46 <phantomcircuit> fishfish, bitcoins are currently largely worth something because you can get USD/EUR/ETC for them
 277 2013-04-20 02:32:09 <phantomcircuit> fishfish, as the market for regular things you can purchase expands, that becomes less important
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 279 2013-04-20 02:32:35 <vrs> fishfish: it's not even proven that satoshi or whoever mined all those early coins still has access to them
 280 2013-04-20 02:32:43 <fishfish> vrs: true
 281 2013-04-20 02:32:50 <fishfish> nothing is proven
 282 2013-04-20 02:33:29 <vrs> I mean, there's a really plausible theory in the forums that much of the first year mining was a network backbone miner by satoshi and that the coins went nowhere
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 284 2013-04-20 02:33:41 <phantomcircuit> fishfish, im not sure anybody sane has ever said the money supply is irrelevant, just that the money supply being limited will not stop people from transacting in small fractions of the standard unit
 285 2013-04-20 02:33:41 <vrs> (second part being less plausible)
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 287 2013-04-20 02:34:13 <phantomcircuit> vrs, some of the very early coins have been spent and others have not
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 290 2013-04-20 02:34:29 <phantomcircuit> i think it's pretty unlikely that anybody has the private keys for the ones that have been not
 291 2013-04-20 02:34:31 <vrs> coins from the backbone miner pattern?
 292 2013-04-20 02:34:58 <phantomcircuit> simply because it would be terrible for maintaining anonymity to leave them in the original coinbase transactions
 293 2013-04-20 02:35:12 <phantomcircuit> even just a few transactions a month would heavily obscure their origin
 294 2013-04-20 02:35:34 <phantomcircuit> and satoshi obviously went to a great deal of effort to obscure his/her/their identity
 295 2013-04-20 02:35:54 <vrs> well if zerocoin becomes viable it's entirely possible these might enter the coin pool
 296 2013-04-20 02:35:57 <phantomcircuit> so it simply doesn't make any sense that they would have those private keys and not be actively attempting to hide their origin
 297 2013-04-20 02:36:02 <vrs> that would imply a great deal of foresight though
 298 2013-04-20 02:36:17 <vrs> but yes, makes sense
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 336 2013-04-20 03:08:15 <brocktice> Ah there we go, I changed the MAX_OUTBOUND_CONNECTIONS define and it's now going past 8
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 342 2013-04-20 03:11:27 <gmatteson_> what format should my json object being using to create a new address? getnewaddress myemail@domain.com or getnewaddress("myemail@domain.com" etc? i just dont know what format to send the string to the bitcoin server
 343 2013-04-20 03:12:14 <gmatteson_> pretty sures its supposed to be the first option.
 344 2013-04-20 03:12:42 <gmatteson_> i am using newtonsoft json with C# not sure how to send paramters i cam getting a server 500 error when i use this
 345 2013-04-20 03:12:52 <gmatteson_> JObject objJSON = new JObject();                 objJSON.Add(new JProperty("jsonrpc", "1.0"));                 objJSON.Add(new JProperty("id", "1"));                 objJSON.Add(new JProperty("method", txtAPICommand.Text));                 //objJSON.Add(new JProperty("params", txtParameters.Text, new JArray()));                 objJSON.Add(new JProperty("params", txtParameters.Text));
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 349 2013-04-20 03:14:33 <kadoban> gmatteson_: there's JSON RPC libraries out there that make this easier, not sure for that language, but...ya
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 433 2013-04-20 04:51:48 <lenny__> hello, is anyone experiencing issues with the blockchain api's?
 434 2013-04-20 04:53:24 <Luke-Jr> hard to experience issues with it when you don't use it
 435 2013-04-20 04:53:31 <Luke-Jr> also, you mean blockchain.INFO
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 437 2013-04-20 04:54:23 <Luke-Jr> the blockchain has no API
 438 2013-04-20 04:54:47 <diki> Luke-Jr:is there some kind of escaping
 439 2013-04-20 04:54:54 <diki> done in the scripting system?
 440 2013-04-20 04:55:07 <diki> Like for instance apostrophe or other characters?
 441 2013-04-20 04:55:26 <gmatteson__> curl --user user --data-binary '{"jsonrpc": "1.0", "id":"curltest", "method": "getnewaddress", "params": [] }'   -H 'content-type: text/plain;' http://127.0.0.1:8332/ - how would i format the parameters section of this to support the getnewaddress?
 442 2013-04-20 04:55:27 <Luke-Jr> diki: that doesn't even make sense
 443 2013-04-20 04:55:44 <diki> Luke-Jr:I wrote an application that given a timestamp,pubkey and nbits calculates the merkle root
 444 2013-04-20 04:55:50 <diki> works fine with satoshi's message
 445 2013-04-20 04:56:13 <diki> But when I tried it with other chains
 446 2013-04-20 04:56:26 <diki> which have timestamps with apostrophes, then it produced different results
 447 2013-04-20 04:57:16 <diki> I compared it with the other coinbases and saw that the apostrophe was escaped and different bytes had replaced it
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 449 2013-04-20 04:58:18 <Luke-Jr> diki: what the heck are you talking about?
 450 2013-04-20 04:58:27 <Luke-Jr> transactions don't have timestamps
 451 2013-04-20 04:58:35 <diki> genesis block's coinbase does
 452 2013-04-20 04:58:41 <Luke-Jr> ………………………………..
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 454 2013-04-20 04:58:48 <phantomcircuit> im guessing he's talking about the rpc api
 455 2013-04-20 04:59:04 <diki> No, I am talking about the timestamp, i.e satoshi's message.
 456 2013-04-20 04:59:18 <diki> even the variable is called pszTimestamp
 457 2013-04-20 04:59:29 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: I'm guessing he hasn't read the spec
 458 2013-04-20 05:01:44 <lenny__> yes Luke-Jr you are correct i did mean blockchain.info . The websocket was connecting before but not receiving anything. Looks like it was a fluke or something on my end although i didn't change anything in my code.
 459 2013-04-20 05:02:09 <Luke-Jr> lenny__: this isn't the channel for that, I bet nobody active here has ever used it
 460 2013-04-20 05:02:51 <lenny__> well my apologies
 461 2013-04-20 05:03:16 <Luke-Jr> np, you might try #bitcoin-tech
 462 2013-04-20 05:04:22 <lenny__> thank you, I will head on over sorry about that.
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 478 2013-04-20 05:19:29 <jspilman> re: lenny__ - was like twilight zone trying to figure out what he was talking about
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 506 2013-04-20 05:42:42 <amiller> has anyone used cbitcoin for anything
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 531 2013-04-20 05:58:09 <mollison> i want to create a bunch of wallets. is there anything _wrong_ with starting bitcoin-qt, moving the new wallet.dat to where i want it, and then repeating the process ad infinitum? in particular, should i be concerned about not having good private keys in these wallets due to depleting the entropy on my system?
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 546 2013-04-20 06:18:44 <Luke-Jr> mollison: be sure bitcoin-qt shuts down cleanly each time
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 550 2013-04-20 06:19:34 <zw> what ended up happening with the guy who posted the big double spend after chain split
 551 2013-04-20 06:19:36 <mollison> Luke-Jr: OK, thanks. so basically i have determined that openssl is using /dev/urandom, but it looks like it checks to make sure that there is enough entropy and adds more if needed... is that correct?
 552 2013-04-20 06:20:15 <Luke-Jr> mollison: I would be shocked if OpenSSL used urandom
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 557 2013-04-20 06:21:27 <mollison> Luke-Jr: delete ~/.bitcoin/wallet.dat and do strace bitcion-qt and look at the log, you will see /dev/urandom. also, i am looking at the source code of openssl and i can see that it does (though I can't claim to fully understand openssl... that is certainly what it looks like)
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 560 2013-04-20 06:23:12 <mollison> Luke-Jr: the relevant file in the openssl source code is crypto/rand/rand_unix.c
 561 2013-04-20 06:25:14 <diki> Oh come on dude
 562 2013-04-20 06:25:17 <diki> stop being paranoid
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 566 2013-04-20 06:27:45 <mollison> diki: i assume you are the one that knows how to exploit this particular case, then :P
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 569 2013-04-20 06:28:25 <diki> No, but chances are your address will get in my list of addresses to crack either way
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 571 2013-04-20 06:28:48 <diki> It's going to take a very long time, but it's just an experiment
 572 2013-04-20 06:28:51 gfinn has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 573 2013-04-20 06:29:03 dbe has joined
 574 2013-04-20 06:29:08 <diki> I recently optimized by bruteforcer and gained 200% increase in speed per 30k addresses
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 577 2013-04-20 06:29:32 <mollison> diki: but it's just doing a brute force search?
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 579 2013-04-20 06:29:48 <diki> Yes, like your name, but with a 'c' :P
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 581 2013-04-20 06:30:14 <mollison> diki: i didn't get that joke
 582 2013-04-20 06:30:19 <diki> In linux a source of entropy is time(NULL)
 583 2013-04-20 06:30:36 <diki> among others
 584 2013-04-20 06:31:12 <diki> s/In Linux/In OpenSSL on linux
 585 2013-04-20 06:31:17 <Luke-Jr> mollison: I'm tempted to replace my /dev/urandom with a link to /dev/random now -.-
 586 2013-04-20 06:31:26 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: am I missing something? :/
 587 2013-04-20 06:32:12 <mollison> Luke-Jr: I tried that symlink idea and I get the same error from the GUI that i get when /dev/urandom is simply removed... probably because openssl tries to open /dev/urandom with O_NONBLOCK which will not work for /dev/random
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 589 2013-04-20 06:32:26 <Luke-Jr> ugh
 590 2013-04-20 06:33:27 <mollison> Luke-Jr: I just tried recompiling openssl with /dev/random and removing the O_NONBLOCK param, but there is test suite that runs after you compile and it gave me an error about not having sufficient entropy. like it wasn't patient for /dev/random to collect entropy, or something.
 591 2013-04-20 06:33:33 <diki> Here is a comment from OpenSSL 1.0.1e
 592 2013-04-20 06:33:33 <diki> 	/* Use a random entropy pool device. Linux, FreeBSD and OpenBSD
 593 2013-04-20 06:33:34 <diki> 	 * have this. Use /dev/urandom if you can as /dev/random may block
 594 2013-04-20 06:33:34 <diki> 	 * if it runs out of random entries.  */
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 597 2013-04-20 06:34:31 <zw> are you able to symlink to anything else besides urandom
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 601 2013-04-20 06:35:13 <mollison> diki: when you say openssl uses time(NULL) on linux, are you referring to lines 404 and 405?
 602 2013-04-20 06:35:33 <diki> I'd imagine so
 603 2013-04-20 06:35:47 <diki> and since it can easily be manipulated to an older date
 604 2013-04-20 06:36:17 <diki> You end up with ver very slightly weaker entropy
 605 2013-04-20 06:36:22 <diki> *very
 606 2013-04-20 06:36:38 <mollison> zw: i didn't understand your question about symlinking. you mean symlink to something besides /dev/random?
 607 2013-04-20 06:36:47 <zw> yeah
 608 2013-04-20 06:37:04 gst has joined
 609 2013-04-20 06:37:22 <mollison> zw: what else would i try? you mean just link to a regular file that i could put random data into?
 610 2013-04-20 06:37:31 <diki> On Windows, a screenshot is taken of the screen as a source of entropy as well as a call to CryptGenRandom
 611 2013-04-20 06:37:55 <diki> though most of the time the PC will be idle, so no changes in the screen
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 613 2013-04-20 06:38:06 johnsoft1 is now known as johnsoft
 614 2013-04-20 06:38:34 <zw> yeah, although i don't know what is 0_nonblock so it's just a thought
 615 2013-04-20 06:39:25 <mollison> zw: it means the system call can't block. i think in practice symlinking to a file with random data might work, but i don't want to actually go that route in practice.
 616 2013-04-20 06:39:28 <jspilman> Trying to sendrawtransaction, getting TX rejected (code -22).  signrawtransaction on the same returns complete:true, spending coins from the local wallet...I assume -22 is completely non-specific?  This is on test-net.  Any suggestions for how to debug the tx?
 617 2013-04-20 06:39:42 <gmaxwell> jspilman: look at debug.log
 618 2013-04-20 06:39:52 <mollison> zw: most likely somebody will convince me, sooner or later, that there is nothing to worry about anyway
 619 2013-04-20 06:40:19 <diki> I still think you are a bit too paranoid
 620 2013-04-20 06:40:54 <mollison> diki: why do you think that? i mean, specifically
 621 2013-04-20 06:41:06 <diki> Because you've been asking this on the forums for a few days now
 622 2013-04-20 06:41:36 <mollison> diki: that's kind of irrelevant to whether my paranoia is justified or not
 623 2013-04-20 06:42:11 <mollison> diki: also most of the replies were off-topic, unfortunately
 624 2013-04-20 06:42:12 <diki> Think of it this way, why would someone want to crack your address, and not say someone with more coins?
 625 2013-04-20 06:42:24 <diki> and crack is a very strong word
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 632 2013-04-20 06:44:43 <mollison> diki: i'm more concerned about something automated (and in the future) where someone has an attack that can discover certain private keys if other private keys generated without sufficient entropy are known... not a targeted attack against me. anyway, it sounds like you understand better than me what openssl is actually doing, so maybe you can convince me that way.
 633 2013-04-20 06:45:01 <gmaxwell> mollison: it's not something to be concerned about, both the kernel and openssl have cryptographically secure prngs, the entropy estimates in the kernel are very conservative. Ideally it would be a little less stupid since these may be long term keys, but that is pure in paranoia land.
 634 2013-04-20 06:45:57 <diki> mollison:The more you think about security of your keys the more it will consume you
 635 2013-04-20 06:46:28 <diki> next thing you know, you will be visiting a shrink telling him how you see keys everywhere.
 636 2013-04-20 06:46:29 <mollison> gmaxwell: thanks, i appreciate it. so is it correct that openssl is actually checking that the numbers it produces have met a certain entropy threshhold?
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 638 2013-04-20 06:46:38 <diki> no offense intended btw
 639 2013-04-20 06:46:47 <gmaxwell> mollison: It's not possible to do that in any case.
 640 2013-04-20 06:46:59 BTCOxygen is now known as 1!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/btcoxygen|BTCOxygen
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 642 2013-04-20 06:47:21 <mollison> gmaxwell: not possible to check that sufficient entropy exists, or not possible to do the crypto attack i described above?
 643 2013-04-20 06:47:32 <gmaxwell> (and even if the kernel PRNG had failed and gone totally determinstic, it would pass any generic test for "randomness")
 644 2013-04-20 06:47:41 <gmaxwell> mollison: It's not possible to check that sufficient entropy exists.
 645 2013-04-20 06:48:38 <mollison> gmaxwell: the only thing that still makes me hesitant really is that you said, "Ideally it would be a little less stupid since these may be long term keys." i'd like to keep the wallets i'm generating around for many years.
 646 2013-04-20 06:48:39 <gmaxwell> mollison: You can test for certian 'obvious' sequences which might come out of broken sources with particular structure— with a tiny risk of rejecting perfectly good random sources, but the kernel isn't one of those sources.
 647 2013-04-20 06:48:58 <diki> I do remember a few years back
 648 2013-04-20 06:49:18 <diki> and I mean an old OpenSSL on some OS had some flaw that created less random entropy or something
 649 2013-04-20 06:49:34 <mollison> diki: that was NetBSD, and it was pretty recently
 650 2013-04-20 06:49:57 <_dr> it was debian
 651 2013-04-20 06:50:04 <_dr> wasn't it?
 652 2013-04-20 06:50:05 <mollison> diki: BTW, i have already been thinking about key security for weeks, and i've already had convos with the armory dev... so it's too late to save my sanity and tell me to turn back
 653 2013-04-20 06:50:22 <zw> gmaxwell: how many more keys need to be generated before it does become an issue? like a whole lot more ?
 654 2013-04-20 06:50:26 <diki> What does 'convos' mean?
 655 2013-04-20 06:50:29 <_dr> http://it.slashdot.org/story/08/05/13/1533212/debian-bug-leaves-private-sslssh-keys-guessable
 656 2013-04-20 06:50:31 <mollison> _dr: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/03/26/netbsd_crypto_bug/
 657 2013-04-20 06:50:37 <wumpus> _dr: debian had such a flaw too, one of the developers patched openssl without understanding what he was doing
 658 2013-04-20 06:50:41 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 659 2013-04-20 06:50:48 <_dr> ah okay, so they both suck :}
 660 2013-04-20 06:50:52 LainZ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 661 2013-04-20 06:50:57 <mollison> diki: convos = conversations. (on IRC)
 662 2013-04-20 06:51:04 <diki> and what did he say?
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 664 2013-04-20 06:51:20 <jspilman> thanks gmaxwell... telling me value in < value out, but should be enough with .0005 fee left over... ah, i was pointing to the wrong vin on a prevout! doh
 665 2013-04-20 06:51:27 <mollison> diki: well he suggested i make a forum post... which i think i will
 666 2013-04-20 06:51:46 <gmaxwell> zw: it's not really a question of how many keys are generated. The kernel random pool gains at least 100 bits per second... and you start off with thousands of bits of randomness in it.
 667 2013-04-20 06:51:47 <diki> ...you already did
 668 2013-04-20 06:51:53 <mollison> diki: ultimately i decided i want to not just rely on armory, but also have multiple wallets that stay offline until i really need them.
 669 2013-04-20 06:52:02 <mollison> diki: no, i mean a forum post about something completely different
 670 2013-04-20 06:52:12 <gmaxwell> jspilman: ouch, good that it was too much value.. the other way would kinda sucked.
 671 2013-04-20 06:52:28 <mollison> diki: don't worry, you'll see it... i don't want to open that can of worms right now... but it's nothing to be concerned about, just an idea to make armory even more secure, basically.
 672 2013-04-20 06:52:34 <gmaxwell> mollison: Why are you going to make a forum post?  What answer are you looking for?
 673 2013-04-20 06:53:06 <jspilman> gmaxwell: testnet
 674 2013-04-20 06:53:10 antix_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 675 2013-04-20 06:53:11 <jspilman> :-)
 676 2013-04-20 06:53:16 <mollison> gmaxwell: sorry, i was talking about a forum post about something different than the entropy thing, not related to the current discussion.
 677 2013-04-20 06:53:41 <gmaxwell> mollison: ah. kay.
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 681 2013-04-20 06:55:34 <mollison> gmaxwell: does the simple fact that openssl uses time(NULL) to seed the entropy pool mean i can safely assume that the successive wallets won't have any meaningful relationship? (assuming that no malware is making time stand still or go backwards.)
 682 2013-04-20 06:55:40 nus- has joined
 683 2013-04-20 06:55:43 <diki> mollison:post a link
 684 2013-04-20 06:55:51 <diki> mollison:i am curious
 685 2013-04-20 06:55:57 <mollison> diki: link to what?
 686 2013-04-20 06:56:06 <mollison> diki: the forum post i shouldn't have mentioned and have not made yet?
 687 2013-04-20 06:56:12 <diki> when you make tge thread
 688 2013-04-20 06:56:18 <diki> *the
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 690 2013-04-20 06:56:22 <mollison> diki: oh. well, i'm not gonna make it tonight
 691 2013-04-20 06:56:37 <mollison> diki: might be a few days, i'm pretty busy
 692 2013-04-20 06:57:14 nus-- has joined
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 694 2013-04-20 06:57:33 <diki> time(null) returns the current unix time in seconds
 695 2013-04-20 06:57:40 robbak has joined
 696 2013-04-20 06:57:41 <mollison> diki: i know that
 697 2013-04-20 06:58:00 RedEmerald has joined
 698 2013-04-20 06:58:03 <diki> i can easily rewind my clock
 699 2013-04-20 06:58:10 <mollison> diki: what i'm asking is, basically, can i assume that the pseudorandom output of openssl actually depends on time(NULL) or not
 700 2013-04-20 06:58:10 <diki> and voila
 701 2013-04-20 06:58:32 <mollison> diki: yeah but i'm going to generate my wallet on a system where i can assume that doesn't happen... so it's a non-issue
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 703 2013-04-20 06:58:57 <zw> diki: what do you do to rewind the clock
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 705 2013-04-20 06:59:18 <mollison> i don't know whether the output of the PRNG depends on all the bytes of entropy in the entropy pool
 706 2013-04-20 06:59:28 <mollison> zw: just change the time on your computer
 707 2013-04-20 06:59:35 <wumpus> mollison:  the number of seconds since the epoch is a very bad random seed as its a) not random b) very predictable
 708 2013-04-20 06:59:52 <wumpus> c) has only a very restricted range of values
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 710 2013-04-20 07:00:39 <mollison> wumpus: true, but it's only _part_ of the entropy pool. so it's not the whole seed. i guess? I don't know if the entire entropy pool is used as input to the PRNG or not.
 711 2013-04-20 07:01:01 <gmaxwell> mollison: that fact that openssl uses the kernel random device means you "can safely assume that the successive wallets won't have any meaningful relationship"
 712 2013-04-20 07:01:21 <wumpus> mollison: clock differences may be part of the entropy pool; I also think it depends on your OS, as I suppose OpenSSL internally makes use of things like /dev/random
 713 2013-04-20 07:01:25 <gmaxwell> mollison: yes the prng depends on all the bytes of entropy in the entropy pool.
 714 2013-04-20 07:01:30 <mollison> gmaxwell: you realize it's using /dev/urandom and not /dev/random, right?
 715 2013-04-20 07:01:37 <gmaxwell> mollison: Yes, and thats fine.
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 717 2013-04-20 07:02:27 <gmaxwell> mollison: I think you're laboring under a misunderstanding of what /dev/u?random does.
 718 2013-04-20 07:02:38 <gmaxwell> It doesn't just output the same data no matter how long you run it.
 719 2013-04-20 07:03:11 <mollison> gmaxwell: the thing that made me worry about /dev/urandom was this page: http://major.io/2007/07/01/check-available-entropy-in-linux/
 720 2013-04-20 07:03:15 <gmaxwell> It's cryptographically secure PRNG based on sha1 IIRC which has an enormous state.
 721 2013-04-20 07:03:37 <jspilman> is it just me, or are the txid's displayed in bitcoind backwards :-)
 722 2013-04-20 07:03:47 <gmaxwell> mollison: yes, what its talking about there is poor performance.
 723 2013-04-20 07:03:57 antix_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 724 2013-04-20 07:04:12 <mollison> gmaxwell: it says "If it returns anything less than 100-200, you have a problem"
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 726 2013-04-20 07:04:20 <wumpus> mollison: I think the concern is when you have a VM with all-virtual hardware, and do everything in a predictable order, then you need to be wary about the entropy pool
 727 2013-04-20 07:04:26 <gmaxwell> mollison: and thats only a potential issue on high volume ssl servers— the randomness pool gets about 100 bits per second added to it at a minimum in linux.
 728 2013-04-20 07:04:40 <gmaxwell> mollison: yes. _a performance problem_
 729 2013-04-20 07:05:10 <mollison> gmaxwell: oh, i understand now the point about a "performance problem."
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 731 2013-04-20 07:05:23 <gmaxwell> because /dev/random will then block. And some things use it (e.g. ssh at least on some systems)
 732 2013-04-20 07:05:34 <zw> slow hard drive dds?
 733 2013-04-20 07:05:37 nus has joined
 734 2013-04-20 07:05:40 <wumpus> gpg uses it too afaik
 735 2013-04-20 07:05:46 <gmaxwell> And then you start getting slow logins.  Or e.g. depending on your ssl.conf slow ssl session establishments.
 736 2013-04-20 07:06:06 <mollison> gmaxwell: you said the randomness pool gets 100 bits per second, but based on looking a tcat /proc/sys/kernel/random/entropy_avail, i don't see that
 737 2013-04-20 07:06:29 <gmaxwell> mollison: its can't go higher than 4000.
 738 2013-04-20 07:06:38 <gmaxwell> (er 4096)
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 740 2013-04-20 07:06:58 <mollison> gmaxwell: mind just reported 700 some, then i waited a few seconds, and then it reported 200 some. In other words, it's giving me pretty low numbers.
 741 2013-04-20 07:07:02 <mollison> *mine
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 743 2013-04-20 07:07:16 <gmaxwell> Sure there are things consuming it.
 744 2013-04-20 07:07:26 <gmaxwell> e.g. fork consumes it because of ASLR.
 745 2013-04-20 07:07:38 chovy has joined
 746 2013-04-20 07:07:40 <chovy> howdy
 747 2013-04-20 07:07:57 <mollison> gmaxwell: so should i wait for it to "refill" between generating additional wallets? i'm guessing based on what you've already said that it's really not necessary to worry about waiting for it to refill even if the numbers are in the low hundreds.
 748 2013-04-20 07:08:05 nus- has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 749 2013-04-20 07:08:26 <chovy> would it be possible to write a javascript function that sends money through blockchain.info wallet with the click of a button?
 750 2013-04-20 07:08:39 <gmaxwell> mollison: It does not matter. It's already been "filled and drained" many times between your wallet generations.
 751 2013-04-20 07:09:07 <gmaxwell> Though the whole concept of filled and drained is a bit misleading since nothing is being filled and drained.
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 753 2013-04-20 07:10:06 <mollison> gmaxwell: it makes sense if it's being filled and drained many times in, say, a second. but why is it misleading to say it's being filled and drained? because entropy is just some kind of estimate of how good the pool is?
 754 2013-04-20 07:10:40 <gmaxwell> The kernel keeps a simple counter of a conservative estimate of the amount of randomness added (Actual randomness added is much greater), which is capped at 4096 bits. The idea is that so long as there is more real randomness than data you've taken out then no amount of cryptographic breaks of anything could recover the state. Of course thats all kind of moot when most of the randomness leaving is going into things like your processes ...
 755 2013-04-20 07:10:46 whiterab1it has joined
 756 2013-04-20 07:10:46 <gmaxwell> ... address space randomization where an attacker couldn't get it..
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 758 2013-04-20 07:11:40 <gmaxwell> mollison: because it's just a (very conservative) estimate of how much more data you can still remove before an ideally perfect attacker who has totally broken sha1 and observed all the data that has come out could guess the data coming out.
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 765 2013-04-20 07:13:51 <gmaxwell> mollison: e.g. say you had an attacker on your system already, in theory, he could read out a ton of data from /dev/urandom and then if you read 128 bits more before the kernel adds more randomness.. and the attacker has some uber quantum computer or some major cryptoanalitic breakthroughs that can generically reverse sha1 then he could determin the key'd you'd get out.
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 768 2013-04-20 07:15:17 <gmaxwell> but your use case doesn't have the attacker on your machine, he's not able to observe the state— except perhaps tiny amounts via other keys (which you somehow leaked) which were generated based on entropy many tens of seconds apart (during which the kernel has added many thousands of new random bits)
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 772 2013-04-20 07:17:00 <gmaxwell> I said ideally above because it would actually be good to be more secure against an attacker on the same system, or in the case of a VM which may have busted randomness we should prefer to fail safe... and also "ideally" because it would avoid anyone having to spend time thinking if it were actually an issue. :)
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 777 2013-04-20 07:18:11 <gmaxwell> (As an aside, I've expirenced randomness depletion performance problems first hand— https://mf4.xiph.org/munin/xiph.org/mf4.xiph.org/entropy.html see the bottom right graph for times when the entropy daemon went down on that host)
 778 2013-04-20 07:20:36 <mollison> gmaxwell: ok, thanks, all very interesting. So, the only thing that weirds me out is that if i repeatedly check the entropy value, i can actually see it decrease. e.g. it will say ~800, then ~700, then ~600 (checking the value every few seconds using echo) and then once it gets to ~100, it stays there. So I suspect that the entropy is not actually being "refilled and emptied" many times every second, but I also suspect that the kernel adds randomness
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 780 2013-04-20 07:22:02 <mollison> probably the kernel is checking the value as part of exec() or somewhere in the scheduler, and adding randomness but (obviously) not blocking.
 781 2013-04-20 07:22:17 <mollison> not that the kernel ever blocks... sorry that was sort of mis-spoken
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 787 2013-04-20 07:23:30 <wumpus> sounds like very little entropy is being added on your system or a lot is being drained, it's ~3500 here all the time
 788 2013-04-20 07:23:34 <gmaxwell> mollison: last time I checked the kernel added 1 bit from the every hit on the 100hz scheduler timer. (it adds in other places too but doesn't credit many of them)
 789 2013-04-20 07:24:02 <mollison> wumpus: i agree. it seems weirdly low.
 790 2013-04-20 07:24:24 <gmaxwell> Unfortunately your echoing of /proc/sys/kernel/random/entropy_avail actually consumes entropy itself, so thats a bit distorting.
 791 2013-04-20 07:24:51 <wumpus> I suppose you could find out which processes are reading from random/urandom and how much
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 793 2013-04-20 07:25:59 <mollison> gmaxwell: ok. well, thanks very much for all your wisdom. at this point i am perfectly happy to believe you that it's nothing to worry about.
 794 2013-04-20 07:26:18 <mollison> gmaxwell: actually i got to that stage a while ago, but i was just still curious so i kept asking questions. anyway, thanks a lot.
 795 2013-04-20 07:26:34 <mollison> wumpus: you know an easy way to do that?
 796 2013-04-20 07:26:55 <mollison> wumpus: or a hard way
 797 2013-04-20 07:28:02 <wumpus> if you're really concerned about randomness, there are hardware random number generator devices that you can buy (though I have no idea how secure those are in practice)
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 799 2013-04-20 07:28:59 <jspilman> gmaxwell: spending a '2 PK1 PK2 2' multisig, with one input and one output, PK1 signs with SINGLE, then add an output and PK2 signs with ALL.  my library verifies the sig happily, bitcoind gives -22.  debug.log says VerifySignature Failed.  In theory, is it allowed to sign MULTISIG with different hash types?
 800 2013-04-20 07:29:11 <wumpus> mollison: I don't know how to do it by heart
 801 2013-04-20 07:29:14 <gmaxwell> or if the number bothers you ... you can start http://www.issihosts.com/haveged/ and always get a nice number out.
 802 2013-04-20 07:29:26 <wamatt> http://www.random.org/ randomness from atmospheric noise
 803 2013-04-20 07:30:08 <gmaxwell> wamatt: or carefully constructed in order to 0wn your gambling site... you never know.
 804 2013-04-20 07:30:14 <mollison> gmaxwell: yeah. i was hoping to avoid installing extra 3rd party software, but that looks pretty reasonable.
 805 2013-04-20 07:30:15 <wumpus> taking "secure" random numbers from a site is a joke though
 806 2013-04-20 07:30:37 <mollison> wumpus: how about taking one from IRC?   4 // random dice roll
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 808 2013-04-20 07:30:42 <wumpus> hahaha
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 810 2013-04-20 07:30:56 <wumpus> you could use satoshidice outputs from the block chain! :P
 811 2013-04-20 07:31:10 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, haveged <3
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 814 2013-04-20 07:31:49 <jspilman> looks like nHashType is passed in once into EvalScript and used for all sigs...
 815 2013-04-20 07:31:53 <wumpus> haveged looks interesting
 816 2013-04-20 07:32:12 <phantomcircuit> it's probably not theoretically secure
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 818 2013-04-20 07:32:21 <phantomcircuit> but practically defeating it would be a significant achievement
 819 2013-04-20 07:32:23 <wamatt> gmaxwell that is about as likely that the hardware device you have is actually made by "<insert spooky organization here>" . time to take off the tin foil. random.org is the real deal
 820 2013-04-20 07:32:28 <jspilman> but each sig has its own sigType byte...
 821 2013-04-20 07:33:15 <jspilman> maybe it's 0 at that point -- in which case CheckSig would pull it from the sig
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 825 2013-04-20 07:34:40 <wumpus> wamatt: I think it's meant for monte carlo and simulations, not so much for key generation .. don't forget the random stream will go over the wire unencrypted
 826 2013-04-20 07:34:52 <gmaxwell> wamatt: random.org is incredibly vague about their process and regardless of how 'good' the randomness is they or anyone who has compromised their system can monitor all of it.
 827 2013-04-20 07:35:59 <wamatt> gmaxwell wumpus both good points :) for the record i wasn't suggesting it was necessarily practical… that's a separate debate
 828 2013-04-20 07:36:14 <wamatt> was just saying.. i highly doubt they are shady or some elaborate scheme
 829 2013-04-20 07:36:34 <wamatt> the same could be said of any thing you choose to do.. even rolling supposedly your "own hardware"
 830 2013-04-20 07:36:34 <gmaxwell> I've seen services setup in such a way that random.org (or its operators) could trivally have exploited them for thousands of bitcoins.
 831 2013-04-20 07:36:48 <wamatt> chinese have been known to install backdoors in hardware etc
 832 2013-04-20 07:36:51 <gmaxwell> So, yea, I'm gonna call out anyone advocating it.
 833 2013-04-20 07:37:16 <wamatt> except gmaxwell random was around long before bitcoin...
 834 2013-04-20 07:37:22 <wamatt> so they not related at all
 835 2013-04-20 07:37:27 <gmaxwell> wamatt: your hardware doesn't become magically backdoored because someone cracked one random internet exposed machine.
 836 2013-04-20 07:37:40 <wamatt> I'm a nerd.. and read about it years ago on some unrelated matter to bitcoin
 837 2013-04-20 07:37:41 <gmaxwell> Who said they were related?
 838 2013-04-20 07:38:00 <wamatt> gmaxwell thought u were suggesting they are setup to exploit bitcoin?
 839 2013-04-20 07:38:17 * gmaxwell loans wamatt a y and o key.
 840 2013-04-20 07:38:23 <gmaxwell> No, that isn't what I was saying.
 841 2013-04-20 07:38:26 <wamatt> ok
 842 2013-04-20 07:38:40 <gmaxwell> (which wouldn't make any sense, because no competent bitcoin user would do anything with it.)
 843 2013-04-20 07:38:43 <wumpus> MITMing them is very possible too, even if the operators are trustable
 844 2013-04-20 07:38:50 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 845 2013-04-20 07:39:12 <gmaxwell> Forget trustable— trustable and with perfectly secure equipment.
 846 2013-04-20 07:39:16 <wamatt> wumpus my understanding was that MITM is actually rather difficult (practically speaking)
 847 2013-04-20 07:39:17 <wumpus> just link it to /dev/zero instead :-)
 848 2013-04-20 07:39:17 antix_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 850 2013-04-20 07:39:57 <gmaxwell> wamatt: it's actually rather trivial— for anything where you have reasonable access to the network.
 851 2013-04-20 07:40:01 <wumpus> wamatt: for plain http it's very, very easy.. for SSL it is more difficult
 852 2013-04-20 07:40:04 <wamatt> as you need to do two things. 1) insert yourself along the the packet route physically. e.g. compromise ISP. 2) setup the attack
 853 2013-04-20 07:40:16 antix_ has joined
 854 2013-04-20 07:41:03 <grau> !ticker
 855 2013-04-20 07:41:03 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 117.63101, Best ask: 118.37999, Bid-ask spread: 0.74898, Last trade: 118.36998, 24 hour volume: 154548.70133541, 24 hour low: 110.25010, 24 hour high: 136.43210, 24 hour vwap: 120.76478
 856 2013-04-20 07:41:06 <gmaxwell> wamatt: being on the same lan as the target and running a single command isn't much of a barrier.
 857 2013-04-20 07:41:20 <wamatt> i operate an ISP for years.. we had hacking incidents all the time.. how many involving MITM? 0. zero. nadda
 858 2013-04-20 07:41:22 <wamatt> operated
 859 2013-04-20 07:41:33 <wumpus> MITMs don't happen at the ISP level, usually
 860 2013-04-20 07:41:47 <wumpus> just some compromised device on your network is enough, or a misleaded DNS server
 861 2013-04-20 07:41:55 <wamatt> yeah.. but most attackers aren't on your lan either… hence the attack surface is smaller
 862 2013-04-20 07:42:07 <wamatt> thus coming back to the "practicality" assertion
 863 2013-04-20 07:42:27 <gmaxwell> wamatt: I've seen MITM's performed in the wild, hell we had someone in here a month or so ago catch one.
 864 2013-04-20 07:42:27 <wumpus> it's pretty easy to get on someones lan... for example through printers and network cameras
 865 2013-04-20 07:42:30 reCrypto has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 866 2013-04-20 07:43:12 <gmaxwell> I ... cannot believe you are defending getting randomness from a third party http server for long term cryptographic keys. You must be trying to troll us.  Congrats. You won. We've been trolled.
 867 2013-04-20 07:43:25 <wumpus> please don't be naive or cocky about security, take proper precautions, especially if you're handling btc
 868 2013-04-20 07:43:47 <wamatt> wumpus those are vectors yes
 869 2013-04-20 07:44:09 <wamatt> wumpus wow . thats a big value judgment.
 870 2013-04-20 07:44:22 reCrypto has joined
 871 2013-04-20 07:44:28 <wumpus> it's just a warning, don't take it personal
 872 2013-04-20 07:44:36 <wamatt> security is tradeoffs, unless u want to disagree with Bruce Schneir
 873 2013-04-20 07:44:46 <wamatt> well u made it personal suggesting I'm naive and cocky
 874 2013-04-20 07:44:51 <wamatt> leave personal out of it fella
 875 2013-04-20 07:44:54 <wamatt> we discussing a topic
 876 2013-04-20 07:44:58 * gmaxwell loans wamatt some more y and o keys.
 877 2013-04-20 07:45:21 vucx has joined
 878 2013-04-20 07:45:30 <wumpus> I've seen some very bad things hapening from close-up, and that was without thousands of dollars of bitcoin involved but because of a game... never underestimate your attackers
 879 2013-04-20 07:46:05 <wamatt> wumpus what if i told you i agree with you….
 880 2013-04-20 07:46:10 <gmaxwell> wamatt: Getting 'random' data for long term cryptographic keys from a third party service over a public network isn't a sensable tradeoff in any context I can think of.
 881 2013-04-20 07:46:21 <wamatt> saying risks need to be evaluated, does in now way related to being sloppy or underestimation
 882 2013-04-20 07:46:41 <gmaxwell> And normally it's a suggestion that I'd just ignore but having seen some people do things like this, I no longer underestimate how foolish people can be.
 883 2013-04-20 07:46:43 <wamatt> gmaxwell in testing its fine
 884 2013-04-20 07:46:52 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 885 2013-04-20 07:47:02 <wamatt> actual random data to check your alto against
 886 2013-04-20 07:47:12 <wamatt> i wanst freaking advocating using in in production ffs
 887 2013-04-20 07:47:16 <wamatt> stop jumping on me ppl
 888 2013-04-20 07:47:24 i2pRelay has joined
 889 2013-04-20 07:47:32 <wamatt> its like a royal assumption gang bang here :_
 890 2013-04-20 07:47:34 <wamatt> :)
 891 2013-04-20 07:47:51 <wamatt> "algo against"
 892 2013-04-20 07:48:12 <gmaxwell> As far as I could tell, you directed someone who was looking to create long term cryptographic keys to random.org.
 893 2013-04-20 07:48:25 <gmaxwell> Sounds like a simple miscommunication then.
 894 2013-04-20 07:48:36 <wamatt> gmaxwell i did nothing of the sort. i saw the word random and discussing sources for it
 895 2013-04-20 07:48:38 jspilman has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 896 2013-04-20 07:48:41 antix_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 897 2013-04-20 07:48:45 <wamatt> and i remembered some site i went to years ago from slashdot or something
 898 2013-04-20 07:48:54 <gmaxwell> Though in testing I'd also strongly recommend against it. You'd use a CSPRNG so that you can repeat the tests should they fail!
 899 2013-04-20 07:48:54 <wamatt> and posted it as a tangential piece for discussion
 900 2013-04-20 07:49:05 antix_ has joined
 901 2013-04-20 07:49:10 <gmaxwell> wamatt: OK.
 902 2013-04-20 07:49:43 tonikt has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 903 2013-04-20 07:50:01 <gmaxwell> In any case, this channel is for bitcoin systems development. I feel bad that we've flooded the logs with four kilobytes of tangent now. Sorry for making you feel piled on, I thought you were recommending something with greater impact on the conversation than you were.
 904 2013-04-20 07:51:11 <wamatt> ok
 905 2013-04-20 07:52:13 <wamatt> i should have given a bit of context too. before throwing things out there :)
 906 2013-04-20 07:52:26 <mollison> so i made a program that just prints looks at the kernel's entropy in a loop and prints it when it changes. it goes up about 1 increment a second on my system, but the cool thing is, it goes up much faster as i move the mouse.
 907 2013-04-20 07:52:45 <gmaxwell> mollison: interesting. what kernel version?
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 909 2013-04-20 07:53:11 <gmaxwell> mollison: maybe they made the timer interupt add less to the pool?
 910 2013-04-20 07:53:14 <wamatt> i thought "sources of random" was interesting. and its probably boring to most, but i for one didn't realize atmospheric noise could be used
 911 2013-04-20 07:53:20 <gmaxwell> s/less to the pool/less to the ocunt/
 912 2013-04-20 07:53:27 <gmaxwell> heh count.
 913 2013-04-20 07:53:48 <mollison> gmaxwell: 3.8.7-1 ... so pretty recent
 914 2013-04-20 07:54:06 <wamatt> i remember reading about some nuclear decay or maybe some quantum state that generated random too. don't know much about hardware generators tbh
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 930 2013-04-20 08:05:15 <Wayward> Bitcoin on Stephen Colbert Show -- http://www.colbertnation.com/full-episodes/wed-april-17-2013-alan-cumming
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 937 2013-04-20 08:10:30 <mollison> based on my little entropy monitoring tool, if i just due a ton of disk i/o, my entropy value stays really high. so for peace of mind, i'll just do that while creating my wallets. easy solution.
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 944 2013-04-20 08:17:11 <wumpus> mollison: do make sure it's a real disk, ssd access times are much more predictable so provide less randomness :-)
 945 2013-04-20 08:17:48 tcatm has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
 946 2013-04-20 08:17:54 <mollison> wumpus: that may be an issue on the platform i am planning to generate wallets on, but if so, i'll find out with my entropy monitoring tool
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 949 2013-04-20 08:18:28 <mollison> wumpus: you seem to know a lot about crypto, maybe you could just generate some wallets for me and send them to me :P
 950 2013-04-20 08:19:04 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 952 2013-04-20 08:19:39 <wumpus> hahahaha 'custom wallets, hand-made by crypto experts'
 953 2013-04-20 08:21:29 <diki> wumpus:you still here?
 954 2013-04-20 08:21:44 antix_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 955 2013-04-20 08:21:46 <wumpus> I think so
 956 2013-04-20 08:23:16 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, cookies
 957 2013-04-20 08:23:36 <phantomcircuit> SELLING VERY VERY RANDOM PRIVATE KEYS
 958 2013-04-20 08:23:40 ItsHappening666 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 959 2013-04-20 08:23:40 <phantomcircuit> ONLY 1 BTC EACH
 960 2013-04-20 08:23:46 antix_ has joined
 961 2013-04-20 08:23:58 <phantomcircuit> I TOTALLY PROMISE I WONT WRITE THEM DOWN
 962 2013-04-20 08:24:41 <wumpus> the cynic in me says that such a snake oil scheme could even work, if you manage to promote it looking 'trustworthy enough'
 963 2013-04-20 08:24:44 ItsHappening666 has joined
 964 2013-04-20 08:25:03 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, the sad part is i would actually not write them down
 965 2013-04-20 08:25:42 <wumpus> I wouldn't, either
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 968 2013-04-20 08:27:53 diki has quit ()
 969 2013-04-20 08:28:29 <wumpus> huh, he asks whether I'm here then doesn't ask a question but quits, interesting
 970 2013-04-20 08:28:45 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, he's coming for you
 971 2013-04-20 08:28:48 <phantomcircuit> RUN
 972 2013-04-20 08:29:00 <wumpus> LOL the connection came from... inside my house! 
 973 2013-04-20 08:29:19 <phantomcircuit> OH GOD IT'S THAT FUCKING CAMP STORY ALL OVER AGAIN
 974 2013-04-20 08:29:21 n5 has quit ()
 975 2013-04-20 08:30:07 <phantomcircuit> hmm
 976 2013-04-20 08:30:09 <phantomcircuit> it's 1am
 977 2013-04-20 08:30:13 <phantomcircuit> im hungry
 978 2013-04-20 08:30:21 <phantomcircuit> i have overly salted almonds
 979 2013-04-20 08:30:30 <phantomcircuit> and things that will take 15 minutes to be edible
 980 2013-04-20 08:30:33 <phantomcircuit> decisions decisions
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 986 2013-04-20 08:33:55 <mollison> phantomcircuit: no decision needs to be made, just eat the almonds for 15 mintues and then the other stuff
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 992 2013-04-20 08:40:21 <diki> wumpus:I tried editing the Bitcoin UI with the intent to add some more labels and print more data, however I was unable to align the labels, like the ones "Balance,Unconfirmed,Immature" with their repsectful values "0 BTC"
 993 2013-04-20 08:40:34 <diki> like each label has the 0BTC at the same position as the one above
 994 2013-04-20 08:41:18 <diki> but I couldn't do it myself no matter what I tried.
 995 2013-04-20 08:41:28 <diki> Is there any trick that's supposed to be used? :P
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1011 2013-04-20 08:54:36 <wumpus> diki: a QFormLayout
1012 2013-04-20 08:55:11 <wumpus> it will automatically align labels and such, that's the idea behind it
1013 2013-04-20 08:55:23 antix_ has joined
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1020 2013-04-20 09:01:34 <diki> Well I did add a form
1021 2013-04-20 09:01:38 <diki> then I added the labels inside
1022 2013-04-20 09:01:48 <diki> it was aligned somewhat, but not like the ones you have added
1023 2013-04-20 09:02:20 <zw> do you guys, like, ever sleep
1024 2013-04-20 09:02:27 <diki> I sleep less these days
1025 2013-04-20 09:03:18 antix_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1026 2013-04-20 09:03:36 <zw> these dudes just sit around waiting for chains to fork up
1027 2013-04-20 09:03:48 <diki> fork up?
1028 2013-04-20 09:03:55 <diki> do you mean alt-coins or actual fork of the chain?
1029 2013-04-20 09:04:11 <zw> no idea, i'm asleep
1030 2013-04-20 09:04:40 <diki> It's 11:38 AM here
1031 2013-04-20 09:04:48 <diki> I had woken up around 12 hours ago
1032 2013-04-20 09:04:53 <diki> no, even more
1033 2013-04-20 09:05:11 <zw> lies
1034 2013-04-20 09:05:19 antix_ has joined
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1036 2013-04-20 09:05:19 antix_ has joined
1037 2013-04-20 09:05:22 <diki> When there's money to be made, I can't afford sleep which is so overrated
1038 2013-04-20 09:06:34 <zw> i need to take a minute to consider that statement
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1047 2013-04-20 09:15:18 <zw> i like it
1048 2013-04-20 09:15:20 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1049 2013-04-20 09:15:48 i2pRelay has joined
1050 2013-04-20 09:16:31 <zw> the internet does still live in some places
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1063 2013-04-20 09:31:41 <tonikt> hi guys. a compressed public key starts with 02 or 03. but what to do with one that begins with 00?
1064 2013-04-20 09:31:43 <tonikt> 000102030405060708090a0b0c0d0e0f101112131415161718191a1b1c1d1e1f20
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1071 2013-04-20 09:32:45 <JDuke128> hello , i 'm using bitcoinj java api.I need to get Wallet's address , but i didn't see any documentation for that ?
1072 2013-04-20 09:32:50 <JDuke128> how can i get wallet address ?
1073 2013-04-20 09:33:52 <JDuke128>  wallet.keychain.get(0).toAddress(params); <= this ? it returns byte[] value = address.getHash160();  , but how can i print it as String ?
1074 2013-04-20 09:37:41 antix_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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1079 2013-04-20 09:40:55 <Scrat> CodesInChaos: wow, ciphercloud must be really desperate
1080 2013-04-20 09:40:57 ThomasV has joined
1081 2013-04-20 09:43:14 antix_ has joined
1082 2013-04-20 09:44:52 <sipa> tonikt: not a public kry
1083 2013-04-20 09:44:54 <sipa> key
1084 2013-04-20 09:45:45 <CodesInChaos> Scrat: and they apparently never heard of the streisand effect
1085 2013-04-20 09:45:51 <diki> wow
1086 2013-04-20 09:45:55 <diki> inventor of hashcash on the forums
1087 2013-04-20 09:46:08 <diki> that's like the "grandfather" of bitcoin
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1092 2013-04-20 09:52:58 <diki> JDuke128:You need to covert those bytes to hex
1093 2013-04-20 09:53:10 <JDuke128> ah thanks
1094 2013-04-20 09:53:24 Casimir1904 has joined
1095 2013-04-20 09:53:30 <JDuke128> btw , bitcoinj is not opensource
1096 2013-04-20 09:53:37 <diki> yes it is
1097 2013-04-20 09:53:40 <JDuke128> its dependency libraries closed source
1098 2013-04-20 09:53:54 <diki> bouncy/spongycastle?
1099 2013-04-20 09:53:59 <JDuke128> its open source but requires some extra "unknown" library
1100 2013-04-20 09:54:00 <JDuke128> spongy
1101 2013-04-20 09:54:04 PartTimeLegend has joined
1102 2013-04-20 09:54:56 antix_ has joined
1103 2013-04-20 09:55:05 <diki> looks open source to me
1104 2013-04-20 09:55:08 <diki> http://www.bouncycastle.org/latest_releases.html
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1106 2013-04-20 09:55:10 <jgm_> JDuke128: spongycastle is available from maven, including source.  Plus it's just a repackage of bouncycastle
1107 2013-04-20 09:55:27 <JDuke128> where
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1111 2013-04-20 09:56:09 <CodesInChaos> spongycastle is essentially bouncycastle renamed to avoid a naming conflict with the version of bouncycastle built into android
1112 2013-04-20 09:56:30 <jgm> http://mvnrepository.com/artifact/com.madgag/scprov-jdk15
1113 2013-04-20 09:56:52 <diki> CodeShark:Which are old.
1114 2013-04-20 09:57:10 <diki> As in, Android ships with old bouncycastle
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1116 2013-04-20 09:59:30 <CodesInChaos> looks like you can produce spongy castle by running some script over the bouncy source code
1117 2013-04-20 09:59:32 <CodesInChaos> https://github.com/rtyley/spongycastle/blob/spongy-master/become-spongy.sh
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1121 2013-04-20 10:01:03 <JDuke128> Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: com/google/common/util/concurrent/CycleDetectingLockFactory$Policy
1122 2013-04-20 10:01:11 <JDuke128> ...
1123 2013-04-20 10:01:12 <tonikt> sipa: thx. I figured, but did not know how the script should behave. now I see that I just load any key and then fail the sig check
1124 2013-04-20 10:01:48 <tonikt> .. instead of calling panic :)
1125 2013-04-20 10:02:17 <sipa> ah, indeed
1126 2013-04-20 10:02:40 <JDuke128> many many dependencies
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1128 2013-04-20 10:03:50 <Arnavion> That's why you use maven
1129 2013-04-20 10:03:53 <jgm> JDuke128: Just use maven
1130 2013-04-20 10:03:55 <Arnavion> It gets the dependencies for you
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1133 2013-04-20 10:04:10 <JDuke128> okay but there is no maven xml data ?
1134 2013-04-20 10:04:16 <JDuke128> i only have bitcoinj.jar
1135 2013-04-20 10:04:18 <JDuke128> nothing more
1136 2013-04-20 10:04:23 <JDuke128> where is maven xml ?
1137 2013-04-20 10:04:25 <JDuke128> pom.xml
1138 2013-04-20 10:04:41 <jgm> JDuke128: where did you get the jar from?
1139 2013-04-20 10:04:49 pecket has joined
1140 2013-04-20 10:04:49 <JDuke128> code google
1141 2013-04-20 10:04:52 <JDuke128> downloads
1142 2013-04-20 10:04:54 <Arnavion> http://repo2.maven.org/maven2/org/bouncycastle/
1143 2013-04-20 10:05:08 <JDuke128> http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/
1144 2013-04-20 10:05:09 <jgm> JDuke128: http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/wiki/UsingMaven gives you the dependency information
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1205 2013-04-20 11:16:57 <JDuke128> i got problem when i tried bitcoinj : java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: com/google/common/util/concurrent/CycleDetectingLockFactory$Policy
1206 2013-04-20 11:17:11 <JDuke128> when debugger goes to                     wallet = new Wallet(params);
1207 2013-04-20 11:17:19 <JDuke128> whats that jar ?
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1212 2013-04-20 11:22:16 <PK> JDuke128: guava probably
1213 2013-04-20 11:22:42 <JDuke128> now i got again error , why all dependencies not zipped on repo ???
1214 2013-04-20 11:22:45 antix_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1215 2013-04-20 11:22:48 <JDuke128> they force me to search on web
1216 2013-04-20 11:23:09 <JDuke128> this time that : Exception in thread "pool-1-thread-1" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: org/spongycastle/asn1/ASN1Primitive
1217 2013-04-20 11:23:33 <PK> well, spongycastle jar :) that's an easy one.
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1224 2013-04-20 11:29:23 <Plornt> Does anyone here know javascript & python and can help me with what I am doing wrong for a mtgox trading bot?
1225 2013-04-20 11:29:41 <Plornt> Still cant get it to auth in :(
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1239 2013-04-20 11:39:52 <moses_> hi guys
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1241 2013-04-20 11:40:06 <moses_> could anyone help me with this question? http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1cqeur/who_knows_how_to_use_sighash_anyonecanpay_for/
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1247 2013-04-20 11:45:30 <Apocaly> moses_, why do you think of sighash_* in the first place ?
1248 2013-04-20 11:45:52 <Apocaly> can't you just list the last transactions to this address ?
1249 2013-04-20 11:45:54 <moses_> because the guy in the video uses it for this purpose
1250 2013-04-20 11:46:39 <moses_> did you guys watch that part of the video? it seems like there is a function that serves exactly this purpose already implemented in the protocol
1251 2013-04-20 11:46:42 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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1253 2013-04-20 11:46:49 <Apocaly> i wonder why, haven't seen the video, but i would use the RPC call listtransactions
1254 2013-04-20 11:47:02 <Apocaly> listtransactions	 [account] [count=10] [from=0]	 Returns up to [count] most recent transactions skipping the first [from] transactions for account [account]. If [account] not provided will return recent transaction from all accounts
1255 2013-04-20 11:47:16 wamatt has joined
1256 2013-04-20 11:47:18 <Apocaly> if you have only that address in the account, it would do exactly that
1257 2013-04-20 11:47:36 <JDuke128> this time i got error like : WARNING: Deleted temp file after failed save.
1258 2013-04-20 11:47:36 <JDuke128> Exception in thread "pool-1-thread-1" java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: This is supposed to be overridden by subclasses.
1259 2013-04-20 11:47:36 <JDuke128> 	at com.google.protobuf.GeneratedMessage.getUnknownFields(GeneratedMessage.java:180)
1260 2013-04-20 11:47:57 bwen has joined
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1262 2013-04-20 11:48:18 <moses_> ok unfortunatly i don´t know much about programming. what i want is that the transactions will only go through if the goal is met by a certain date. if not, everything is transferred back.
1263 2013-04-20 11:48:26 reCrypto1 has left ()
1264 2013-04-20 11:48:29 <bwen> can I has signhash_anyonecanpay?
1265 2013-04-20 11:48:35 i2pRelay has joined
1266 2013-04-20 11:48:45 <Apocaly> moses_, ah ok
1267 2013-04-20 11:48:50 <JDuke128> someone can help ?
1268 2013-04-20 11:49:00 <Apocaly> i misunderstood
1269 2013-04-20 11:49:14 <moses_> so it serves as a trusted indicator without the need of a 3rd party
1270 2013-04-20 11:49:41 <Apocaly> if you want to rollover the transactions i can't help unfortunatly i haven't knowledge of that
1271 2013-04-20 11:49:42 robbak has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1272 2013-04-20 11:49:48 <moses_> the video is very well worth a watch to see some functions that exist in the protocoll but are not used yet
1273 2013-04-20 11:50:07 <Apocaly> if i were to do it i would probably go  my way and refund the transactions if it fail to meet the criteria
1274 2013-04-20 11:50:08 <JDuke128>  wallet.saveToFile(walletFile); throws exception
1275 2013-04-20 11:50:11 robbak has joined
1276 2013-04-20 11:50:28 <moses_> it seems like the amount of people who actually are familiar with the bitcoin protocoll in depths is very small.
1277 2013-04-20 11:50:45 antix_ has joined
1278 2013-04-20 11:50:51 <Apocaly> moses_, it is indeed
1279 2013-04-20 11:50:54 <moses_> where would i find someone to do it? bitcointalk.org
1280 2013-04-20 11:51:03 <Apocaly> probably here
1281 2013-04-20 11:51:03 <JDuke128> Exception in thread "pool-1-thread-1" java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: This is supposed to be overridden by subclasses.
1282 2013-04-20 11:51:03 <JDuke128> 	at com.google.protobuf.GeneratedMessage.getUnknownFields(GeneratedMessage.java:180)
1283 2013-04-20 11:51:03 <JDuke128> 	at org.bitcoinj.wallet.Protos$Key.getSerializedSize(Protos.java:1199)
1284 2013-04-20 11:51:05 <JDuke128> 	at com.google.protobuf.CodedOutputStream.computeMessageSizeNoTag(CodedOutputStream.java:749)
1285 2013-04-20 11:51:05 <JDuke128> 	at com.google.protobuf.CodedOutputStream.computeMessageSize(CodedOutputStream.java:530)
1286 2013-04-20 11:51:05 <JDuke128> 	at org.bitcoinj.wallet.Protos$Wallet.getSerializedSize(Protos.java:6887)
1287 2013-04-20 11:51:07 <JDuke128> 	at com.google.protobuf.AbstractMessageLite.writeTo(AbstractMessageLite.java:75)
1288 2013-04-20 11:51:07 <JDuke128> 	at com.google.bitcoin.store.WalletProtobufSerializer.writeWallet(WalletProtobufSerializer.java:102)
1289 2013-04-20 11:51:07 <JDuke128> 	at com.google.bitcoin.core.Wallet.saveToFileStream(Wallet.java:701)
1290 2013-04-20 11:51:09 <JDuke128> 	at com.google.bitcoin.core.Wallet.saveToFile(Wallet.java:389)
1291 2013-04-20 11:51:09 <JDuke128> 	at com.google.bitcoin.core.Wallet.saveToFile(Wallet.java:432)
1292 2013-04-20 11:51:09 <JDuke128> 	at PaymentReporterClient$1.run(PaymentReporterClient.java:54)
1293 2013-04-20 11:51:11 <JDuke128> 	at java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor$Worker.runTask(ThreadPoolExecutor.java:895)
1294 2013-04-20 11:51:11 <JDuke128> 	at java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor$Worker.run(ThreadPoolExecutor.java:918)
1295 2013-04-20 11:51:11 <JDuke128> 	at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:680)
1296 2013-04-20 11:51:12 <lianj> moses_: here
1297 2013-04-20 11:51:13 <JDuke128> i got this error on coding
1298 2013-04-20 11:51:21 <Apocaly> JDuke128, stop that..
1299 2013-04-20 11:51:25 <Apocaly> use pastebin
1300 2013-04-20 11:51:28 <JDuke128> why this error occurs?
1301 2013-04-20 11:51:31 <JDuke128> ok
1302 2013-04-20 11:51:34 <JDuke128> next time
1303 2013-04-20 11:51:51 <moses_> so i just keep coming back and ask the same question until someone is online who can help me? :)
1304 2013-04-20 11:52:00 <Apocaly> that's the plan
1305 2013-04-20 11:52:14 <moses_> ok fair enough
1306 2013-04-20 11:52:16 stalled has joined
1307 2013-04-20 11:52:17 <Apocaly> of you learn this on your own by that time
1308 2013-04-20 11:52:25 <Apocaly> it can be well worth it
1309 2013-04-20 11:52:31 antix_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1310 2013-04-20 11:52:48 <moses_> one super-noob question.. what programming language would one have to know to review the protocoll and implement such a function?
1311 2013-04-20 11:53:03 tumdum_ is now known as tumdum
1312 2013-04-20 11:53:04 <Apocaly> C++
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1315 2013-04-20 11:53:13 <moses_> thanks
1316 2013-04-20 11:53:20 <Apocaly> the original client is written in that language
1317 2013-04-20 11:54:08 <lianj> moses_: the problem is that its (relativly) hard for others to sign your anyonecanpay tx. its not a feature implemented in the gui of bitcoin-qt for example
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1319 2013-04-20 11:54:26 <moses_> alright. i´ll keep looking into it and searching someone
1320 2013-04-20 11:55:02 <bwen> lianj: is there an ETA for these features to appear in the client?
1321 2013-04-20 11:55:10 <lianj> moses_: i think my answer is the reason its not commonly done today.
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1323 2013-04-20 11:55:15 <lianj> bwen: patches welcome ;)
1324 2013-04-20 11:55:22 <moses_> oh i thought that once it is set up anyone could send money to that adress and the btc would sort of be frozen until pledge is met or deadline is over..
1325 2013-04-20 11:55:51 <bwen> moses_: you need the client to craft a SPECIFIC transaction
1326 2013-04-20 11:55:56 <bwen> and they dont right now
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1328 2013-04-20 11:56:06 <bwen> so if you would code it yourself
1329 2013-04-20 11:56:11 <lianj> no, you create a tx with you desired output amount and others have to add their anyonecanpay inputs
1330 2013-04-20 11:56:18 <bwen> you would have to make EVERYONE use YOUR bitcoin client
1331 2013-04-20 11:56:21 <bwen> for all this to work
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1333 2013-04-20 11:56:45 <moses_> ah ok, that sucks. so it wouldn´t be a hazzle not just for me to set it up, but also for anyone who wants to participate
1334 2013-04-20 11:56:57 <moses_> damn
1335 2013-04-20 11:57:01 <lianj> moses_: right. currently.
1336 2013-04-20 11:57:17 <moses_> so we need a new client that supports these things :)
1337 2013-04-20 11:57:35 <lianj> or extend todays ones
1338 2013-04-20 11:57:40 <CodeShark> submit a pull request, get it reviewed, and perhaps one day the official client will have that feature :)
1339 2013-04-20 11:57:42 Sealy has quit (Quit: Sealy)
1340 2013-04-20 11:57:44 <moses_> yeah true
1341 2013-04-20 11:57:58 <moses_> how do i do that?
1342 2013-04-20 11:58:01 <bwen> moses_: we need to put pressure on these dev guys to add the features in the current client
1343 2013-04-20 11:58:02 <moses_> @codesharl
1344 2013-04-20 11:58:15 <CodeShark> go to the official repository on github
1345 2013-04-20 11:58:17 <CodeShark> fork it
1346 2013-04-20 11:58:27 MJR____ has joined
1347 2013-04-20 11:58:42 <CodeShark> create a new branch with your feature
1348 2013-04-20 11:58:46 <CodeShark> submit a pull request
1349 2013-04-20 11:58:47 <lianj> moses_: same with multisig txs. still not made easily accessible and thus not used much
1350 2013-04-20 11:58:58 <moses_> well i won´t be able to program this but i would like to "submit a pull request"
1351 2013-04-20 11:59:13 <moses_> how do i do that?
1352 2013-04-20 11:59:16 <CodeShark> a pull request means you have added something to the source code
1353 2013-04-20 11:59:18 <bwen> I really think that implementing the sighash_anyonecanpay will help more bitcoin projects! This is an awsome, if not a core feature, to have for contracts and such
1354 2013-04-20 11:59:20 <CodeShark> or changed something
1355 2013-04-20 11:59:30 <lianj> moses_: then you can create an issue on github suggesting someone please make a pull request with code out of it
1356 2013-04-20 11:59:44 MJR__ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1357 2013-04-20 11:59:52 <sipa> eh, signrawtransaction supports anyonecanpay just fine
1358 2013-04-20 11:59:57 <sipa> there is no user interface for it
1359 2013-04-20 12:00:07 <lianj> moses_: what sipa said
1360 2013-04-20 12:00:10 <sipa> but the core infrastructure to create and use such transactions works just fine
1361 2013-04-20 12:00:33 <sipa> the hard part is working out the non-core parts of how such transactions work
1362 2013-04-20 12:00:46 <sipa> how do people communicate their partially-signed transactions, for example
1363 2013-04-20 12:00:54 <bwen> sipa: this is something we need in the client to help new bitcoin projects... okay one of mine xD
1364 2013-04-20 12:01:23 <bwen> siipa: make it happen #1
1365 2013-04-20 12:01:27 <lianj> sipa: right, its the off core protocol flows that also hold back multisigs
1366 2013-04-20 12:01:34 PartTimeLegend has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1367 2013-04-20 12:01:35 <JDuke128> whats bitcoinj required for protobuf ?
1368 2013-04-20 12:01:41 <JDuke128> protobuf version ?
1369 2013-04-20 12:01:45 <moses_> well guys thanks for the input. i will try to do the request and hope for the best! for this project we might have to do it old school :D
1370 2013-04-20 12:01:58 <sipa> moses_: there is nothing you can request, as there is nothing to change
1371 2013-04-20 12:02:09 <Apocaly> we might have to do it old school /// that's probably the way to go
1372 2013-04-20 12:02:23 <Apocaly> iif you don't want to wait for months
1373 2013-04-20 12:02:42 <sipa> moses_: well, there is, once it's clear how this will work, it's viable to get it in the reference client
1374 2013-04-20 12:02:45 <moses_> what do you mean sipa?
1375 2013-04-20 12:02:51 <sipa> but if anything, people need to experiment with this first
1376 2013-04-20 12:02:54 <sipa> it needs to _work_
1377 2013-04-20 12:03:04 <moses_> yeah i agree
1378 2013-04-20 12:03:11 <CodeShark> in other words, what we need are implementations - not requests to implement it :)
1379 2013-04-20 12:03:17 <sipa> and the hard part is not implementing it, it's knowing and agreeing upon how to do it
1380 2013-04-20 12:03:23 <bwen> Apocaly: months.. not years? thats acceptable.. what you base that ETA on? is there something somewhere that says these will be implemented in the client?
1381 2013-04-20 12:03:50 <sipa> i don't think that right now such things even belong in the reference client
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1384 2013-04-20 12:04:09 <JDuke128> this time i got this error : com.google.bitcoin.store.BlockStoreException: com.google.bitcoin.store.BlockStoreException: File size on disk does not match expected size: 108 vs 641024
1385 2013-04-20 12:04:27 <sipa> and the hardest part isn't even implementing it, but deciding on communicating between the different involved parties
1386 2013-04-20 12:04:39 i2pRelay has joined
1387 2013-04-20 12:04:50 <sipa> likely that will mean some extension to the payment protocol (which in itself isn't entirely finished yet)
1388 2013-04-20 12:05:07 macboz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1389 2013-04-20 12:05:43 <sipa> JDuke128: talk to TD or BlueMatt
1390 2013-04-20 12:06:15 Guest90733 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1391 2013-04-20 12:06:30 <kinlo> JDuke128: sounds like a diskfull issue
1392 2013-04-20 12:09:59 MJR____ has quit (Quit: MJR____)
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1395 2013-04-20 12:12:35 <JDuke128> diskfull ?
1396 2013-04-20 12:12:40 i2pRelay has joined
1397 2013-04-20 12:12:43 <JDuke128> i ve 300GB+ free
1398 2013-04-20 12:12:48 <JDuke128> on my disk
1399 2013-04-20 12:15:07 <JDuke128> i got this error on bitcoinj api : http://pastie.org/7672492
1400 2013-04-20 12:15:08 rdymac has joined
1401 2013-04-20 12:16:52 <sipa> JDuke128: i think you'll have to wait until some people knowledgeable about BitcoinJ appear
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1436 2013-04-20 12:42:11 <kronicd_> hi, I'm trying to understand how the generation/tx fees get allocated when a block is created/pushed out to the network.
1437 2013-04-20 12:42:30 twobitcoins has joined
1438 2013-04-20 12:42:35 <kronicd_> is "txNew.vout[0].scriptPubKey << reservekey.GetReservedKey() << OP_CHECKSIG;"
1439 2013-04-20 12:42:55 <kronicd_> basically saying, for tx 0 in the newly mined  block, assign a key from the wallet as the rcpt address for funds?
1440 2013-04-20 12:44:18 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1441 2013-04-20 12:44:34 freefox has joined
1442 2013-04-20 12:44:39 <freefox> how can I skip the account in "bitcoind getbalance [account] [minconf]" and only specify a minconf?
1443 2013-04-20 12:44:50 i2pRelay has joined
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1447 2013-04-20 12:47:20 <jouke> freefox: *
1448 2013-04-20 12:47:56 <freefox> jouke: thanks!
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1470 2013-04-20 13:21:10 <skinnkavaj> hi one question, how do i name a btc adress so it will show up on blockchain.info?
1471 2013-04-20 13:21:36 darkskiez has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1472 2013-04-20 13:22:06 <OneMiner> They all do.
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1479 2013-04-20 13:28:32 <pjorrit_> gimme the private key i'll get it on there for you
1480 2013-04-20 13:30:29 <kronicd_> I'm trying to understand more about how new blocks are created/fee reciepents specified. Is "txNew.vout[0].scriptPubKey << reservekey.GetReservedKey() << OP_CHECKSIG;" stating the recipeint address coming from a key within the current wallet?
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1483 2013-04-20 13:33:12 <lianj> "fee reciepents"?
1484 2013-04-20 13:33:16 macboz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1485 2013-04-20 13:33:41 <kronicd_> as in, the recipeint of the first tx in the block
1486 2013-04-20 13:33:48 <kronicd_> who gets the block reward/tx fees
1487 2013-04-20 13:34:33 <lianj> the output scripts in the coinbase(first tx in block) tx
1488 2013-04-20 13:35:20 <lianj> its usually a pubkey or address of the miner
1489 2013-04-20 13:36:08 <kronicd_> yup
1490 2013-04-20 13:37:17 <kronicd_> any idea where in the src I'd find that? I'm tryin gto build a bitcoind that can accept a list of recipents for the mined coins (basically so all miners get paid in by the block mined)
1491 2013-04-20 13:37:21 <kronicd_> just a toy idea heh
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1493 2013-04-20 13:38:06 <lianj> kronicd_: some pool do or used to do that
1494 2013-04-20 13:38:22 imTorim has joined
1495 2013-04-20 13:38:45 <lianj> when crafting your coinbase tx just make more outputs instead of the common one output
1496 2013-04-20 13:39:02 <lianj> dunno where its in the source, never looked much into mining with bitcoind
1497 2013-04-20 13:39:11 <kronicd_> no problem, thanks very much
1498 2013-04-20 13:39:24 <kronicd_> I've been digging throug the source for hours and what you're saying does sound familiar
1499 2013-04-20 13:39:27 <kronicd_> thanks :)
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1502 2013-04-20 13:41:41 <lianj> kronicd_: quick grep of bitcoind, CreateNewBlock inside main.cpp, // Create coinbase tx, just define more outputs
1503 2013-04-20 13:41:55 <kronicd_> awesome, thankyou.
1504 2013-04-20 13:42:04 <lianj> just remember the combined value must be right or the block ofc is invalid
1505 2013-04-20 13:42:12 <lianj> combined value = reward + fees
1506 2013-04-20 13:43:33 <lianj> pblock->vtx[0].vout[0].nValue = GetBlockValue(pindexPrev->nHeight+1, nFees); instead of putting that value into the first/one output, split it over the others. each output paying the share he mined/processed for
1507 2013-04-20 13:44:04 Muis_ has joined
1508 2013-04-20 13:45:24 <kronicd_> yup, found that earlier
1509 2013-04-20 13:45:41 <robbak> Anyone here have a tesnet client open that would like to trade coinage with mpjtqtTTNpp2dx4osUvftwn9LNhjb4PpF2 for testing?
1510 2013-04-20 13:46:25 <Apocaly> is there a way to send amounts from multiple addresses in one transaction ?
1511 2013-04-20 13:46:35 <Apocaly> i have seen that on blockchain info
1512 2013-04-20 13:46:40 <robbak> Yes. There is even a way to prevent it.
1513 2013-04-20 13:46:45 <saracen> Apocaly: That happens automatically
1514 2013-04-20 13:47:07 <robbak> If you have balances on multple addresses in your wallet, that's what will happen.
1515 2013-04-20 13:47:31 Muis has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1516 2013-04-20 13:48:03 <Apocaly> saracen, but then the addresses must be under the same account, right ?
1517 2013-04-20 13:48:14 <saracen> The bitcoin client doesnt allow you to select what address the coins come from, it just selects a bunch to make up the total
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1520 2013-04-20 13:49:09 <saracen> I don't think so. But I'm not entirely sure.
1521 2013-04-20 13:49:51 <kronicd_> lianj: thanks again. just confirmed it :D
1522 2013-04-20 13:49:53 <SomeoneWeird> the satoshi client doesn't, no
1523 2013-04-20 13:49:57 <SomeoneWeird> other clients do
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1530 2013-04-20 13:56:34 <btcfaucet> hi
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1532 2013-04-20 13:56:37 <btcfaucet> terminate called after throwing an instance of 'std::runtime_error' what():  CWallet::GenerateNewKey() : AddKey failed
1533 2013-04-20 13:56:41 <btcfaucet> got this for the 4th time now today
1534 2013-04-20 13:56:48 robbak has joined
1535 2013-04-20 13:56:48 <btcfaucet> have to restart bitcoind
1536 2013-04-20 13:56:51 <btcfaucet> ideas?
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1542 2013-04-20 14:00:54 <kronicd_> scriptPubKey = recipient address?
1543 2013-04-20 14:01:26 vrs_ is now known as vrs
1544 2013-04-20 14:01:29 vrs has quit (Changing host)
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1546 2013-04-20 14:01:56 <saracen> btcfaucet: is the wallet encrypted?
1547 2013-04-20 14:02:30 malaimo has joined
1548 2013-04-20 14:02:34 <bibbybob> robbak, do you still need testnet coins?
1549 2013-04-20 14:03:37 <btcfaucet> saracen: yes
1550 2013-04-20 14:04:38 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1551 2013-04-20 14:04:51 <saracen> btcfaucet: Is the walletpassphrase timing out?
1552 2013-04-20 14:05:11 i2pRelay has joined
1553 2013-04-20 14:05:57 <btcfaucet> you mean it times out just when the server is doing it? because lately it's been under a lot of stress, many timeouts where i don't know if coins were sent or not, kind of annoying
1554 2013-04-20 14:06:11 <btcfaucet> i'll try to increase the walletpassphrase timeout
1555 2013-04-20 14:06:19 <btcfaucet> (also, moving daemon to a diff server tonight)
1556 2013-04-20 14:06:21 <btcfaucet> thaks for the tip
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1558 2013-04-20 14:09:19 <PK> wtf, I tried to download the block chain on 0.8.1 three times now. Either it gets stuck on a wrong chain or the database gets corrupted?!? Is that a know issue?
1559 2013-04-20 14:09:48 Jackneill has joined
1560 2013-04-20 14:09:54 <sipa> PK: what OS, what kind of hardware?
1561 2013-04-20 14:10:04 Plornt has joined
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1563 2013-04-20 14:10:37 <PK> Win XP 64, kind of hardware... well, good old hard disk that spins rather than a SSD.
1564 2013-04-20 14:10:52 <sipa> how much RAM?
1565 2013-04-20 14:10:56 <PK> 5 GB
1566 2013-04-20 14:11:13 <PK> 3x 1 + 1x2 ... don't ask.
1567 2013-04-20 14:11:17 <sipa> PK: ok
1568 2013-04-20 14:11:26 <sipa> can you start the client with "-reindex" on the command-line?
1569 2013-04-20 14:11:28 orblivion has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1570 2013-04-20 14:11:53 <sipa> PK: and if it happens again, as soon as possible afterwards, come back here and put your debug.log file somewhere
1571 2013-04-20 14:11:54 <PK> doing that right now.
1572 2013-04-20 14:12:13 <sipa> it's something we're seeing from time to time, but can't reproduce
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1574 2013-04-20 14:12:57 <sipa> if you have some memory to spare, you can speed up the reindexing by passing -dbcache=1000
1575 2013-04-20 14:13:05 <sipa> (which means use 1 GB of in-memory cache)
1576 2013-04-20 14:13:11 <PK> You should have told me before -reindex. Now the log is gone.
1577 2013-04-20 14:13:13 i2pRelay has joined
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1579 2013-04-20 14:13:49 <sipa> you can exit the client during the reindex, and start again - it will continue where it left off
1580 2013-04-20 14:13:54 robbak has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1582 2013-04-20 14:15:48 <PK> it's running with -dbcache=3000 now. I'll let you know when it's done or breaks again.
1583 2013-04-20 14:18:28 <PK> sipa: it's technically not possible to parallelize the reindexing, is it?
1584 2013-04-20 14:19:14 paraipan has joined
1585 2013-04-20 14:19:30 <sipa> PK: 3000 may be too much (windows builds are 32 bit and only support 4 GiB of address space)
1586 2013-04-20 14:19:50 <PK> 3000 would be 3GB, right?
1587 2013-04-20 14:20:06 chmod755 has joined
1588 2013-04-20 14:20:07 <sipa> PK: the cpu untensive part (signature checking, which is only enabled at the end)
1589 2013-04-20 14:20:12 Sealy has quit (Quit: Sealy)
1590 2013-04-20 14:20:17 <sipa> is already parallellized
1591 2013-04-20 14:20:20 <sipa> the rest is a lot harder
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1594 2013-04-20 14:21:08 <PK> Was afraid so, otherwise it would have been a good use for the gpu.
1595 2013-04-20 14:21:13 <sipa> yes 3000 is 3 GB
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1597 2013-04-20 14:21:34 <sipa> but that's far from tje only thing that needs address space
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1606 2013-04-20 14:27:22 <HM2> you won't even get 4 GiB on 32bit Windows
1607 2013-04-20 14:27:48 <HM2> the kernel consumes 2 GiB of it
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1621 2013-04-20 14:37:28 <PK> sipa: http://pastebin.ca/2362928
1622 2013-04-20 14:38:26 <Apocaly> <HM2> the kernel consumes 2 GiB of it // is trolling allowed here ?
1623 2013-04-20 14:38:26 <PK> HM2: you can change that to 1GB and leave 3GB to the apps with the right flags. But I use xp64 which is a 64bit OS, so the applications should get the full 4 GB if they are aware of the large memory.
1624 2013-04-20 14:38:27 <sipa> PK: is it always at the same block that it fails?
1625 2013-04-20 14:38:48 <Apocaly> HM2, it's a bit farfetched, 1GB kernel the oher one explorer.exe :)
1626 2013-04-20 14:39:05 <sipa> Apocaly: we're not talking about memory usage, but about address spaces
1627 2013-04-20 14:39:10 <HM2> PK, yeah but a lot of drivers fall over with /3GB, especially graphics drivers
1628 2013-04-20 14:39:15 <Apocaly> oh, my bad sipa
1629 2013-04-20 14:39:25 <PK> sipa: no
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1631 2013-04-20 14:39:39 valparaiso_ is now known as valparaiso
1632 2013-04-20 14:39:44 <sipa> PK: can you verify by running -reindex again?
1633 2013-04-20 14:39:46 <Apocaly> "consumes" isn't a proper wording for talking about address space though...
1634 2013-04-20 14:39:58 <HM2> reserves then
1635 2013-04-20 14:40:00 <sipa> Apocaly: sure it is, it's a limited resource
1636 2013-04-20 14:40:04 <Apocaly> yes
1637 2013-04-20 14:40:09 <Apocaly> reserves is good
1638 2013-04-20 14:40:14 <sipa> ok ok, reserves
1639 2013-04-20 14:40:25 <HM2> lol
1640 2013-04-20 14:40:26 <sipa> or "allocates", even more technically correct
1641 2013-04-20 14:40:32 <PK> Apocaly, HM2, everyone else: Detailed answer here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5686459/what-is-the-maximum-memory-available-to-a-c-application-on-32-bit-windows
1642 2013-04-20 14:41:24 <HM2> If you're not using a 64bit OS by now you need to save your Bitcoins
1643 2013-04-20 14:42:05 <HM2> interestingly, Windows has an API that lets you unmap stuff from memory and then remap it later without loss
1644 2013-04-20 14:42:18 <HM2> so with a bit of a dance you can access more than 4 GiB of ram from a 32bit process
1645 2013-04-20 14:43:06 <Apocaly> <HM2> interestingly, Windows has an API that lets you unmap stuff from memory and then remap it later without loss // only  to some very limited extent
1646 2013-04-20 14:43:23 <Apocaly> or maybe using swap
1647 2013-04-20 14:43:28 <sipa> HM2: imagine it was 64 KiB, would you say the same?
1648 2013-04-20 14:43:31 <PK> HM2: that's more like playing twister than a dance. A 32bit process doesn't have the pointers to point to more than 2^32 addresses.
1649 2013-04-20 14:44:00 <Apocaly> PK, it will save some stuff on disk i believe
1650 2013-04-20 14:44:02 <HM2> sipa?
1651 2013-04-20 14:44:14 <Apocaly> of course it doesn't have more than 2^32..
1652 2013-04-20 14:44:16 <HM2> Apocaly: no it'll keep it in RAM, it just won't be mapped
1653 2013-04-20 14:44:23 <kinlo> in the listunspent rpc call, what is the meaning of the scriptPubKey field?
1654 2013-04-20 14:44:36 <sipa> kinlo: the scriptPubKey of the unspent output
1655 2013-04-20 14:44:46 <PK> Apocaly: then the "process" can't use it. Maybe the OS can be offering up to 4GB to each process.
1656 2013-04-20 14:44:49 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1657 2013-04-20 14:45:13 <kinlo> sipa: so basicly the bitcoin address to which the output is sent?
1658 2013-04-20 14:45:18 joesmoe has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1659 2013-04-20 14:45:21 i2pRelay has joined
1660 2013-04-20 14:45:30 <sipa> kinlo: assuming it's a standard pay-to-pubkeyhash script, yes
1661 2013-04-20 14:45:50 <sipa> there's a pull request to add the address to the output; not sure if it's already merged
1662 2013-04-20 14:45:59 <kinlo> sipa: kinda hard to believe
1663 2013-04-20 14:46:09 <kinlo> sipa: the data I see isn't that
1664 2013-04-20 14:46:13 <sipa> explain?
1665 2013-04-20 14:46:29 <sipa> or give an example
1666 2013-04-20 14:46:48 <kinlo> the scriptPubKey is the same, while the unspent transactions are to different adresses
1667 2013-04-20 14:47:14 <kinlo> oh wait
1668 2013-04-20 14:47:30 <kinlo> they LOOK the same, they all start and end with the same data
1669 2013-04-20 14:47:37 <kinlo> I mistaken them for being equal
1670 2013-04-20 14:47:42 <sipa> yes, standard scripts look similar
1671 2013-04-20 14:47:50 macboz has joined
1672 2013-04-20 14:48:01 <kinlo> yeah, when comparing you only look at the beginning and the end :p
1673 2013-04-20 14:48:20 <HM2> won't be a problem once hashed scripts arrive. right sips? :P
1674 2013-04-20 14:48:37 <kinlo> so they all end on 88ac and start with 76a914
1675 2013-04-20 14:48:50 <sipa> HM2: even P2SH scripts look similar
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1688 2013-04-20 15:01:32 <sipa> PK: any progress?
1689 2013-04-20 15:01:58 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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1693 2013-04-20 15:07:43 <Confused> What the hell...Solution Found but send Param WRONG!!!
1694 2013-04-20 15:07:55 <Confused> My Source Data is
1695 2013-04-20 15:08:03 <Confused> 00000002b15704f4ecae05d077e54f6ec36da7f20189ef73b77603225ae56d2b00000000bcf59695a4e35a2f7535e1a86b306a3b08c212bf0b833764018fe39f01919381510c28111c0e8a3700000000000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000.
1696 2013-04-20 15:08:08 <Confused> The Correct Send Param is:
1697 2013-04-20 15:08:14 <Confused> 00000002b15704f4ecae05d077e54f6ec36da7f20189ef73b77603225ae56d2b00000000b052cbbdeed2489ccb13a526b77fadceef4caf7d3bb82a9eb0b69ebb90f9f5a7510c27fd1c0e8a37fa531338000000800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000080020000
1698 2013-04-20 15:08:20 <Confused> The First 73 is the same as the Source Data but then what Voodoo Magic happened that caused the next the 71 characters to change ? I thought we are just suppose to replace the nonce from the source data to the correct nonce[Convert to Hex and Convert to Big Endian] ?
1699 2013-04-20 15:08:56 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1701 2013-04-20 15:11:02 <PK> sipa: it's still scanning. Old PC isn't that fast.
1702 2013-04-20 15:12:33 <PK> sipa: it's at 168470 now. So past the last block it couldn't validate.
1703 2013-04-20 15:13:08 <sipa> that can only mean that either it misread it from disk previous time, or there's some bug with your CPU or RAM...
1704 2013-04-20 15:13:15 egis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1705 2013-04-20 15:14:57 <jrmithdobbs> lollin so hard at that press page website github issue
1706 2013-04-20 15:15:10 <jrmithdobbs> while we're at it, let's add weev to the fuckin press page guys!
1707 2013-04-20 15:15:14 <jrmithdobbs> for fair and balanced coverage!
1708 2013-04-20 15:15:23 <jrmithdobbs> he loves to promot bitcoin!
1709 2013-04-20 15:15:27 <sipa> weev?
1710 2013-04-20 15:15:33 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1711 2013-04-20 15:15:50 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: @rabite ... the att/ipad/wget is a cfaa violation now guy
1712 2013-04-20 15:16:01 sensorii has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1713 2013-04-20 15:16:35 <sipa> i didn't understand anything of that sentence except 'the', 'is', 'a', 'now' and 'guy'
1714 2013-04-20 15:16:35 <jrmithdobbs> aka, horrible awful human being who lives to troll and take advantage of people (much like the tards being proposed to be added as official press on bitcoin.org, lulz)
1715 2013-04-20 15:16:51 jspilman has joined
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1717 2013-04-20 15:17:06 <JWU42> sipa: you are not alone in the lack of comprehension ;)
1718 2013-04-20 15:17:19 guruvan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1719 2013-04-20 15:17:31 i2pRelay has joined
1720 2013-04-20 15:17:34 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: who weev is: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/03/magazine/03trolls-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 ... why anyone knows his name: http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/no-more-lulz-should-weev-the-world-s-most-notorious-troll-go-to-jail-for-hacking
1721 2013-04-20 15:18:05 JDuke128 has joined
1722 2013-04-20 15:19:34 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: he just happens to rant about bitcoin constantly, and therefore would obviously be as good an addition to the press page on bitcoin.org as jon matonis / roger ver (aka https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/issues/145 )
1723 2013-04-20 15:19:50 <sipa> great
1724 2013-04-20 15:20:01 <sipa> i've seen enough not to bother reading further
1725 2013-04-20 15:20:04 <jrmithdobbs> sipa: i say i say i say it's a joke son.
1726 2013-04-20 15:20:34 <jrmithdobbs> (i'm calling the people who are arguing in that issue stupid, not srsly proposing any mention of weev be added to the website, if you're missing that part.)
1727 2013-04-20 15:21:42 guruvan has joined
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1732 2013-04-20 15:24:20 <HM2> asio is one whacky library
1733 2013-04-20 15:24:40 debiantoruser has joined
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1735 2013-04-20 15:24:47 <HM2> the i/o objects do nothing but forward calls almost verbatim to the backend service, and the backend service does almost nothing but forward the calls to the implementation
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1741 2013-04-20 15:30:10 <HM2> and nothing seems to make use of this architecture
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1751 2013-04-20 15:38:06 <kronicd_> I'm back again! I'm trying to figure out how to parse an address into a vector suitable for use as a scriptPubKey
1752 2013-04-20 15:38:10 <kronicd_> any advice?
1753 2013-04-20 15:39:33 Confused has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1754 2013-04-20 15:39:55 <lianj> kronicd_: you need to parse out the hash160 of the address. that comes into the script. not the address itself
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1761 2013-04-20 15:43:34 <kronicd_> lianj: thanks again
1762 2013-04-20 15:44:37 jaequery has joined
1763 2013-04-20 15:45:00 <lianj> kronicd_: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transactions#Types_of_Transaction you want 'Transfer to Bitcoin address'
1764 2013-04-20 15:45:33 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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1767 2013-04-20 15:47:13 i2pRelay has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1771 2013-04-20 15:50:00 <kronicd_> excuse the dump (only five lines or so), but heres where I am at the moment in test code
1772 2013-04-20 15:50:04 <kronicd_> CBitcoinAddress testAddr("1GftTpgiMP2xfSdtTTtVBdKTBEDAiRh7ia");
1773 2013-04-20 15:50:06 <kronicd_> CScript testScriptPubKey;
1774 2013-04-20 15:50:09 <kronicd_> testScriptPubKey.SetDestination(testAddr);
1775 2013-04-20 15:50:11 <kronicd_> txNew.vout[0].scriptPubKey = CScript() << testScriptPubKey.SOMETHING? << OP_CHECKSIG;
1776 2013-04-20 15:50:36 median^ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1777 2013-04-20 15:50:45 <Graet> but maybe i should try to come to japan for a night or 3 next time you are there :P
1778 2013-04-20 15:50:50 <Graet>  oops
1779 2013-04-20 15:51:02 <sipa> kronicd_: just txNew.vout[0].scriptPubKey.SetDestination(testAddr)
1780 2013-04-20 15:51:41 <kronicd_> oh crap
1781 2013-04-20 15:51:45 <kronicd_> sipa: thanks...
1782 2013-04-20 15:51:49 <kronicd_> I feel pretty tarded right now.
1783 2013-04-20 15:52:08 robocoin has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1784 2013-04-20 15:52:25 <kronicd_> do I still need the OP_CHECKSIG;?
1785 2013-04-20 15:52:44 guruvan has joined
1786 2013-04-20 15:53:01 <sipa> no
1787 2013-04-20 15:53:03 robocoin has joined
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1789 2013-04-20 15:53:03 robocoin has joined
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1791 2013-04-20 15:53:51 <sipa> .SetDestination builds a standard script (including the OP_CHECKSIG) of a payment to an address
1792 2013-04-20 15:54:37 JDuke128 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1793 2013-04-20 15:55:11 metabyte_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1794 2013-04-20 15:55:51 <kronicd_> I've just tried that out and I'm getting the error no known conversion for argument 2 from 'BitcoinAddress' to 'const CKeyID&' any clue?
1795 2013-04-20 15:56:04 Apocaly has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1798 2013-04-20 15:56:21 random_cat has joined
1799 2013-04-20 15:58:18 <sipa> oh, you need to convert the CBitcoinAddress to a CDestination
1800 2013-04-20 15:58:48 Davincij15 has joined
1801 2013-04-20 15:58:52 <sipa> so .SetDestination(testAddr.Get())
1802 2013-04-20 15:58:56 jaequery has joined
1803 2013-04-20 15:59:13 <sipa> CBitcoinAddress is the base58 converted form of a CTxDestination
1804 2013-04-20 16:00:22 <kronicd_> ahh
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1817 2013-04-20 16:13:00 <kronicd_> looking a lot better, binary is having some db creation errors, but I'll try rebuilding db 4.8.30 first
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1829 2013-04-20 16:34:06 <marijnfs> hello, im trying communicate with the testnetwork to understand the protocol
1830 2013-04-20 16:34:39 <marijnfs> i open a tcp connection with one of the nodes at their port 18333 and send the version message, but i get nothing back
1831 2013-04-20 16:35:01 robbak has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1832 2013-04-20 16:35:09 <marijnfs> i should expect a version messgae back over the tcp connection, right?
1833 2013-04-20 16:35:26 robbak has joined
1834 2013-04-20 16:35:54 <sipa> yes, and a verack
1835 2013-04-20 16:37:19 <[psy]> maybe its ssl?
1836 2013-04-20 16:37:27 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1837 2013-04-20 16:37:52 <sipa> no, it isn't
1838 2013-04-20 16:38:05 <Ferroh_> Who is the bitcoincharts guy?
1839 2013-04-20 16:38:15 <lianj> tcatm
1840 2013-04-20 16:38:41 <Ferroh_> tcatm: You suck.
1841 2013-04-20 16:38:47 <Ferroh_> fix your api
1842 2013-04-20 16:39:01 Ferroh_ has left ("*poof*")
1843 2013-04-20 16:39:17 <lianj> Ferroh_: pft, he is friendly and provides a longrunning great service
1844 2013-04-20 16:39:57 <lianj> oh gone. what a douche
1845 2013-04-20 16:40:14 Ferroh has joined
1846 2013-04-20 16:40:47 <lianj> Ferroh: youre a douche, he is friendly and provides a longrunning great service. whats wrong with the api?
1847 2013-04-20 16:41:22 <Ferroh> according to him he made a "slight semantic change"
1848 2013-04-20 16:41:28 <Ferroh> which now renders it basically useless
1849 2013-04-20 16:42:15 <lianj> whats the change? in which part of the api?
1850 2013-04-20 16:42:19 vucx has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1851 2013-04-20 16:42:49 <Ferroh> I shouldn't say useless, it's just that you now have to make many requests to get the data you want
1852 2013-04-20 16:43:01 <Ferroh> the change is that he removed the start paramete
1853 2013-04-20 16:43:11 <marijnfs> sipa: so i connect to his port 18333, but on my side its on another port, is that a problem?
1854 2013-04-20 16:43:13 <Ferroh> so if you want 24 hours of data from 30 days ago for example,
1855 2013-04-20 16:43:15 <HM2> welcome to the painful world of API design
1856 2013-04-20 16:43:25 <sipa> marijnfs: no, that's very normal
1857 2013-04-20 16:43:41 <Ferroh> then you now have to specify an end time, and he gives you 2000 trades
1858 2013-04-20 16:43:56 <Ferroh> so now think about how you would discover the 24 hours of data you want.
1859 2013-04-20 16:44:34 <Ferroh> or to be clearer:
1860 2013-04-20 16:44:46 <Ferroh> You specify and end time, and he gives you 2000 trades before the end time.
1861 2013-04-20 16:44:54 <Ferroh> So getting data is now a big pain.
1862 2013-04-20 16:45:06 <Ferroh> I am annoyed
1863 2013-04-20 16:45:38 nus- has joined
1864 2013-04-20 16:45:57 <lianj> its a free service walk back the time and fetch them then, or even better capture and store them live
1865 2013-04-20 16:46:00 <sipa> "aaargh, this free service works differently now, so i have to do work!"
1866 2013-04-20 16:46:17 xenesis has joined
1867 2013-04-20 16:47:53 <fishfish> hi guys, do you know if it's possible to use the bitcoinqt client as a daemon for testing purposes? got a test machine I don't feel like building bitcoind on.
1868 2013-04-20 16:48:45 <Ferroh> lianj, sipa: You can only call the API once per 15 minutes.
1869 2013-04-20 16:48:54 <Ferroh> It's not about doing it differently, its that you cannot do it.
1870 2013-04-20 16:49:01 <Ferroh> What if there are more than 2000 trades in a 15 minute period?
1871 2013-04-20 16:49:27 nus has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1872 2013-04-20 16:50:01 <lianj> Ferroh: `nc bitcoincharts.com 27007`
1873 2013-04-20 16:50:24 <marijnfs> sipa: what could cause the other node to just keep the connection open?
1874 2013-04-20 16:50:34 <marijnfs> if it doesnt accept the version, it would close the connection right?
1875 2013-04-20 16:50:53 <sipa> marijnfs: depending on what code it is, it may just drop the packet it doesn't understand
1876 2013-04-20 16:51:07 <sipa> git head will disconnect
1877 2013-04-20 16:53:26 <marijnfs> sipa: im using 'gobit' code, but i think it might be an old protocol version. version messages now need a checksum right?
1878 2013-04-20 16:53:58 <sipa> yes
1879 2013-04-20 16:54:07 <sipa> never heard of gobit
1880 2013-04-20 16:54:21 <Ferroh> lianj: Ya, that's not the API. If I wanted to just listen then I might as well just listen to MtGox directly, instead of adding a second point of failure.
1881 2013-04-20 16:55:05 vucx has joined
1882 2013-04-20 16:57:30 <Ferroh> sipa: Bitcoin is a free service. Should I not complain if it stops working?
1883 2013-04-20 16:58:10 <Ferroh> although I guess thats not quite what you said
1884 2013-04-20 16:58:13 <Ferroh> so ok fine.
1885 2013-04-20 16:58:22 joesmoe has joined
1886 2013-04-20 16:58:27 <fishfish> hi guys, say i have one wallet with 3 addresses on it. I want to transfer from address 1 and 2 to address 3 but I'd rather not pay trx fees. Is there no way around it? Seems odd I have to pay trx fee when all the addresses are on the same wallet.
1887 2013-04-20 16:58:45 Tom_Soft has joined
1888 2013-04-20 16:59:28 <sipa> fishfish: the bitcoin network doesn't know or care whether those addresses are your own or not, but you are asking the network to secure the transaction
1889 2013-04-20 17:01:44 nus-- has joined
1890 2013-04-20 17:04:16 <fishfish> thanks sipa!
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1901 2013-04-20 17:22:54 <bibbybob> Is it worthwhile to cpu mine on the testnet?
1902 2013-04-20 17:24:22 <Apocaly4> fishfish, there is a way !
1903 2013-04-20 17:24:35 <Apocaly4> if each adress is on a different account
1904 2013-04-20 17:24:44 <Apocaly4> you just use the move RPC call
1905 2013-04-20 17:25:01 <Apocaly4> no tx fee as a transaction won't be created and it's instant
1906 2013-04-20 17:25:18 <Apocaly4> move	 <fromaccount> <toaccount> <amount> [minconf=1] [comment]	 Move from one account in your wallet to another
1907 2013-04-20 17:25:30 <fishfish> oh really
1908 2013-04-20 17:25:53 <Apocaly4> fishfish, i use that on a daily basis, works like a charm
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1911 2013-04-20 17:26:11 <fishfish> so i need to create an account per address then?
1912 2013-04-20 17:26:17 <sipa> fishfish: it doesn't change the address
1913 2013-04-20 17:26:25 <sipa> it just changes the local balance in the wallet
1914 2013-04-20 17:26:30 <sipa> if you use the accounts feature
1915 2013-04-20 17:26:37 <Apocaly4> sipa BS
1916 2013-04-20 17:26:42 <sipa> Apocaly4: please
1917 2013-04-20 17:26:47 <sipa> accounts have nothing to do with addresses
1918 2013-04-20 17:26:48 <Apocaly4> why would such a feature be there ?
1919 2013-04-20 17:26:51 robbak has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1920 2013-04-20 17:26:51 <Apocaly4> they have
1921 2013-04-20 17:27:06 <Apocaly4> fishfish, use the set account if you don't have addresses
1922 2013-04-20 17:27:06 <Apocaly4> setaccount	 <bitcoinaddress> <account>	 Sets the account associated with the given address. Assigning address that is already assigned to the same account will create a new address associated with that account.
1923 2013-04-20 17:27:16 robbak has joined
1924 2013-04-20 17:27:20 <sipa> Apocaly4: you're confused, and you're confusing fishfish
1925 2013-04-20 17:27:25 <Apocaly4> that way you can map each address to an account if you don't have already
1926 2013-04-20 17:27:31 whiterab1it has joined
1927 2013-04-20 17:27:33 <Apocaly4> and then use the move call
1928 2013-04-20 17:27:33 <sipa> accounts are purely a feature inside the wallet
1929 2013-04-20 17:27:40 <Apocaly4> sipa, yes
1930 2013-04-20 17:27:42 <Apocaly4> so ?
1931 2013-04-20 17:27:43 <sipa> to keep track of multiple users sharing a wallet
1932 2013-04-20 17:27:52 <sipa> coins do not belong to accounts
1933 2013-04-20 17:27:53 <Apocaly4> he's talking about 3 addresses inside the same wallet too
1934 2013-04-20 17:27:56 <sipa> accounts can go negative
1935 2013-04-20 17:28:12 <Apocaly4> <sipa> accounts can go negative // why is this relevant ?
1936 2013-04-20 17:28:23 <sipa> it's relevant to show you that coins do not belong to accounts
1937 2013-04-20 17:28:30 <Apocaly4> i know that
1938 2013-04-20 17:28:37 <sipa> if you want to change the address a coin is assigned to, you need bitcoin transaction
1939 2013-04-20 17:28:52 <sipa> the move command is only useful to change the virtual balance of an account inside your wallet
1940 2013-04-20 17:29:10 <sipa> they may be what you want to, but unless you're already using the accounts feature, that's probably not the case
1941 2013-04-20 17:29:55 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1942 2013-04-20 17:29:58 whiterab1it is now known as wrabbit
1943 2013-04-20 17:30:47 daveluke has joined
1944 2013-04-20 17:31:23 <TheSeven> does someone know of a base58check validator implemented in javascript?
1945 2013-04-20 17:31:42 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
1946 2013-04-20 17:31:47 <sipa> fishfish: unless you're implementing a service that holds a wallet for several people, the move command is unlikely to be what you want
1947 2013-04-20 17:33:02 <fishfish> sipa: thank you! i am indeed a multi user server. Each user has an address and i'm trying to move money from all addresses to a single one
1948 2013-04-20 17:33:14 <fishfish> at a regular interval hence the reticence to pay trx fees
1949 2013-04-20 17:33:35 <sipa> fishfish: one address per user is pretty bad for privacy
1950 2013-04-20 17:33:54 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1951 2013-04-20 17:34:17 <sipa> but in that case you can actually use the accounts feature; getaccountaddress will give a new address for a particular user, and when payments are received to it, that user's account will be credited
1952 2013-04-20 17:34:43 <sipa> you'll need to use sendfrom to specify which account to debit when making payments
1953 2013-04-20 17:35:13 <sipa> also: please understand that these accounts have nothing to do with coins... the coins in the wallets will be shared among users, and assigned to any and all addresses in it
1954 2013-04-20 17:35:23 <fishfish> ah.
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1960 2013-04-20 17:44:02 <Apocaly4> fishfish, i'm in the same situation
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1964 2013-04-20 17:47:09 <Apocaly4> sipa, since you seem to know a lot about accounts vs addresses
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1966 2013-04-20 17:47:27 <Apocaly4> how do I move funds from all acounts to a single address in a single transaction ?
1967 2013-04-20 17:47:36 <Apocaly4> well, all except one
1968 2013-04-20 17:47:49 <sipa> accounts have nothing to do with addresses!
1969 2013-04-20 17:48:03 <sipa> you can move the balance to one account, using several move commands
1970 2013-04-20 17:48:17 <sipa> or you can move the coins to one address using sendtoaddress
1971 2013-04-20 17:48:19 <Apocaly4> i want to move to an address on another waller
1972 2013-04-20 17:48:25 <Apocaly4> so no move here
1973 2013-04-20 17:48:30 <Apocaly4> i need a real transaction
1974 2013-04-20 17:48:40 <sipa> right, so you need sendtoaddress or sendfrom
1975 2013-04-20 17:48:43 <Apocaly4> sendtoaddress	 <bitcoinaddress> <amount> [comment] [comment-to]
1976 2013-04-20 17:48:55 <sipa> sendtoaddress will debit the "" account
1977 2013-04-20 17:49:03 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
1978 2013-04-20 17:49:05 <Apocaly4> that's bad because i want to leave exactly 1 address untouched
1979 2013-04-20 17:49:08 <Apocaly4> OH
1980 2013-04-20 17:49:19 <Apocaly4> <sipa> sendtoaddress will debit the "" account // are you absolutly sure ?
1981 2013-04-20 17:49:23 <sipa> yes
1982 2013-04-20 17:49:26 <Apocaly4> if yes that's great news
1983 2013-04-20 17:49:31 <sipa> why?
1984 2013-04-20 17:49:38 <sipa> sendfrom "" does the same
1985 2013-04-20 17:49:38 <Apocaly4> let's say i have account "" , 1 and 2
1986 2013-04-20 17:49:47 jdnavarro has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1987 2013-04-20 17:49:59 <sipa> sendtoaddress is the same as sendfrom, but always debiting ""
1988 2013-04-20 17:50:01 <Apocaly4> account 1 holds 1 BTC, account 2 hold 3 BTC, account '' holds 0.5 BTC
1989 2013-04-20 17:50:06 <sipa> ok
1990 2013-04-20 17:50:29 <Apocaly4> if i issue "sendtoaddress someadress 1 BTC"
1991 2013-04-20 17:50:39 <Apocaly4> it should trigger an error right ? insufficient funds
1992 2013-04-20 17:50:43 <sipa> no it won't
1993 2013-04-20 17:50:53 <Apocaly4> it won't take the funds from account 1 & 2
1994 2013-04-20 17:50:54 <sipa> you have 4.5 BTC in your wallet, so there are enough funds
1995 2013-04-20 17:50:55 <Apocaly4> why not ?
1996 2013-04-20 17:51:04 <sipa> because accounts have nothing to do with coins1
1997 2013-04-20 17:51:08 <sipa> there are enough coins
1998 2013-04-20 17:51:10 <Apocaly4> yeah but i want to send from account ' ' only !
1999 2013-04-20 17:51:21 <Apocaly4> hum ok i get it
2000 2013-04-20 17:51:26 <sipa> what's the point?
2001 2013-04-20 17:51:27 <Apocaly4> so that's why i will do
2002 2013-04-20 17:51:32 <sipa> accounts are _ONLY_ numbers
2003 2013-04-20 17:51:39 <sipa> they are not coins, and they are not addresses
2004 2013-04-20 17:51:45 Balthamos has joined
2005 2013-04-20 17:51:45 <Apocaly4> i will call "getbalance	 [account] [minconf=1]"
2006 2013-04-20 17:51:54 <Apocaly4> to be sure account '' has the balance
2007 2013-04-20 17:52:09 Balthamos is now known as Guest71952
2008 2013-04-20 17:52:09 <saracen> Apocaly4: The only way you'd be able to send from this wallet without touching a specific address, is if you were to remove that address from the wallet. But, you'd need to make sure the money is actually on that address, and not inside of a change address
2009 2013-04-20 17:52:25 <sipa> that's dangerous in any case
2010 2013-04-20 17:52:41 <sipa> unless you completely understand how wallets are implemented, you'll likely shoot yourself in the foot
2011 2013-04-20 17:52:52 <Apocaly4> move	 <fromaccount> <toaccount> <amount> [minconf=1] [comment] // how do you explain the miniconf arg here
2012 2013-04-20 17:52:53 <Apocaly4> ?
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2014 2013-04-20 17:53:12 <sipa> it's legacy, not used anymore
2015 2013-04-20 17:53:33 <sipa> move used to prevent accounts from going negative, so it needed to know what incoming transactions to count or not
2016 2013-04-20 17:54:21 <sipa> but as preventing accounts from going negative is impossible in the first place (what about reverted transactions, for example), that was removed and you're now responsible yourself for not letting them go negative if you don't want that
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2020 2013-04-20 17:58:40 <fishfish> right so say someone wanted to build a satoshicircle clone, then they would use individual deposit addresses all under one wallet and when 'aggregating' the funds just send to a 3rd party address? Sounds like accounts wouldn't be a good option here
2021 2013-04-20 17:58:52 ielo_ has joined
2022 2013-04-20 17:59:46 <Apocaly4> "so say someone wanted to build a satoshicircle clone" // are you ?
2023 2013-04-20 17:59:53 <sipa> no idea how satoshicircle works
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2026 2013-04-20 18:02:11 <fishfish> like instawallet really
2027 2013-04-20 18:02:27 <fishfish> user comes in, address is generated 'here's your deposit address'
2028 2013-04-20 18:02:33 <fishfish> then they rake the accounts at night
2029 2013-04-20 18:02:45 <fishfish> to their 'hotwallet' and probably move some of that to cold storage
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2031 2013-04-20 18:04:57 <Apocaly4> fishfish, that's a global sendtoaddress command i believe
2032 2013-04-20 18:05:01 <[Tycho]> ;;seen slush
2033 2013-04-20 18:05:02 <gribble> slush was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 3 weeks, 2 days, 8 hours, 44 minutes, and 45 seconds ago: <slush> not really :(
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2046 2013-04-20 18:26:59 <rdponticelli> fishfish: If you want to be safe, you won't have the private key online in the first place
2047 2013-04-20 18:27:04 <rdponticelli> No need to move the coin after receiving them
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2050 2013-04-20 18:28:47 <fishfish> rdponticelli : i'd love that - but I don't understand how i cannot hold the private key on the server if I need to 'send' regularly from the wallet
2051 2013-04-20 18:30:48 <rdponticelli> fishfish: Coins are fungible
2052 2013-04-20 18:30:48 <rdponticelli> You don't have to send the exact same coins
2053 2013-04-20 18:30:52 <rdponticelli> You're better receiving them offline
2054 2013-04-20 18:32:09 <fishfish> i can receive them offline, but on a large enough user base, how would I automate the sending?
2055 2013-04-20 18:32:32 graingert_ has joined
2056 2013-04-20 18:32:33 <rdponticelli> And if you have to maintaing a hot wallet (which is a poor security practice, btw), you refill it from the offline wallet
2057 2013-04-20 18:34:38 <fishfish> rdponticelli: so , say i have a server. On the wallet are 10 addresses: 9 users, 1 hot wallet. Every 10 minutes I push all the 9 user coins to my hot wallet. Every 20 minutes I push from the hotwallet to offsite. I need the keys on the server for that.
2058 2013-04-20 18:34:42 forgot has left ("Leaving")
2059 2013-04-20 18:34:43 <rdponticelli> On a large user base you need to make some engineering, but I'll use some callback mechanism
2060 2013-04-20 18:34:59 <fishfish> what you're saying is, send the coins from elsewhere, in which case i need some form of manual process?
2061 2013-04-20 18:36:25 ielo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2062 2013-04-20 18:36:29 <rdponticelli> fishfish: You can automate some, or all the process
2063 2013-04-20 18:36:34 jedunnig_ has joined
2064 2013-04-20 18:37:06 <fishfish> i'm confused as the 'how' part - do you have links to tutorials?
2065 2013-04-20 18:37:44 <rdponticelli> But having the coins on a server, ready to send is a hacker's wet dream
2066 2013-04-20 18:37:49 <rdponticelli> fishfish: But, yes, send the coins from elsewhere, after validating that the withdrawal is legit
2067 2013-04-20 18:38:03 <fishfish> gotcha!
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2083 2013-04-20 19:01:57 <devrandom> fishfish: Every 20 minutes I push from the hotwallet to offsite. I need the keys on  the server for that.
2084 2013-04-20 19:02:04 KoSoVaR has joined
2085 2013-04-20 19:02:19 <devrandom> fishfish: that's not true.  you can send to offline with just the offline public key
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2094 2013-04-20 19:16:20 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: sipa: did you see TierNolan's post?  I find it super-intriguing:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=88208.msg1896213#msg1896213
2095 2013-04-20 19:16:52 <etotheipi_> it's an interesting property of having this address-based lookup
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2100 2013-04-20 19:19:08 <gmaxwell> We've talked before about moving the txout storage costs to the user... but I've not seen any actually fleshed out designs for it, including how you handle offline recieving.
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2102 2013-04-20 19:19:57 <gmaxwell> (and how do you keep the tree balanced when there are unreachable nodes?)
2103 2013-04-20 19:21:31 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: you don't have balancing issues with trie-based structures
2104 2013-04-20 19:21:39 <etotheipi_> I just commented about that... it only matters if you use BSTs
2105 2013-04-20 19:21:44 Apocaly4 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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2107 2013-04-20 19:23:35 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: say you're using a 256way trie. How the heck do I insert a new txout next to some dead user's 15 levels in?
2108 2013-04-20 19:24:35 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: oh crap, good point... I forgot that you need both the sender's *and* receiver's sub-branch
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2110 2013-04-20 19:25:17 <etotheipi_> the idea was that the sender can submit his sub-branch to you... but you're right, the receiver cannot
2111 2013-04-20 19:25:37 <etotheipi_> unless you have some guarantee that addresses will never be reused
2112 2013-04-20 19:25:49 copumpkin has joined
2113 2013-04-20 19:26:04 <etotheipi_> BIP 39:  no address re-use, ever.  go
2114 2013-04-20 19:26:29 <gmaxwell> even then, the network still has to store the full tree so that you could insert a new address at some not-fully-populated branch.
2115 2013-04-20 19:28:27 <gmaxwell> In any case, the simplest form of this— and the only one I've given any real thought to— is that you store the uxto's by their hash. so then you at least push the utxo storage cost itself to the user... of course, you then can't do any by-address indexing.
2116 2013-04-20 19:28:41 <gmaxwell> but that doesn't save the network the cost of storing the tree.
2117 2013-04-20 19:28:49 <[Tycho]> Address re-use is fun :)
2118 2013-04-20 19:28:58 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: can you post to that thread to clarify, before anyone else gets excited about it :)
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2120 2013-04-20 19:30:17 <jspilman> hey etotheipi - question for you about the tx replcement vs. 0 confirmation txs thread you were commenting on a couple days ago...
2121 2013-04-20 19:30:25 <forrestv> gmaxwell, perhaps you could store the created txouts by reusing the branches from the txins?
2122 2013-04-20 19:30:31 <etotheipi_> jspilman: sure
2123 2013-04-20 19:30:49 <jspilman> I understand if seq is < max, maybe you don't trust the 0 confirm tx, but if seq is MAX, then replacement isn't a factor, right?
2124 2013-04-20 19:31:40 <etotheipi_> jspilman: it depends what's actually being talked about in that thread (I'm not sure exactly)
2125 2013-04-20 19:31:53 <jspilman> It's John's $500 bounty on enabled replacement-for-fee
2126 2013-04-20 19:32:06 <etotheipi_> technically, even with max sequence, if I miner receives a conflicting tx with a higher fee, they can drop the previous one and start mining the new one
2127 2013-04-20 19:32:11 ProfMac_ has joined
2128 2013-04-20 19:32:17 <etotheipi_> the difference is, with replacement, they are *obligated* to drop the previous one
2129 2013-04-20 19:32:47 <jspilman> or is there some idea that you can replace-with-fee a seq=max tx?
2130 2013-04-20 19:33:15 <etotheipi_> jspilman: there is no network rule that allows you to replace a zero-conf seq=max tx, but miners can still do it if the previous transaciton hasn't been mined yet
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2132 2013-04-20 19:33:32 <sipa> memory pool behaviour is just policy
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2134 2013-04-20 19:33:39 <sipa> it has nothing to do with network rules
2135 2013-04-20 19:33:42 <jspilman> what's *obligated* mean? :-)  miner can put whatever tx they want in the block, they are all valid. I never really understood how the whole incrementing seq value can be trusted
2136 2013-04-20 19:33:59 <etotheipi_> and that was the point of the thread... there's nothing stopping miners from adopting a memory pool policy that always picks the tx with the highest fee when they get a conflicting tx
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2139 2013-04-20 19:34:04 <etotheipi_> as long as it hasn't been mined yet
2140 2013-04-20 19:34:39 <jspilman> ok, so it's replacement-by-fee of mempool txs as a general policy
2141 2013-04-20 19:35:14 <etotheipi_> right, and there's no network rule that can change that, because zero-conf tx don't actually "exist" until it's in a block
2142 2013-04-20 19:35:22 <etotheipi_> so you can't declare that any one is more right than any other
2143 2013-04-20 19:35:32 <etotheipi_> so miners might as well just pick the one with the highest fee
2144 2013-04-20 19:35:42 <jspilman> what about incrementing seq... if you have 5 versions of a tx with different seq numbers, there's no guarantee which one will make it in the blockchain, right?
2145 2013-04-20 19:35:42 <etotheipi_> it just so happens that default behavior in bitcoind is to keep the first one they received
2146 2013-04-20 19:36:04 <gmaxwell> You can but your declariation doesn't have the force of a protocol rule. You can claim people are dishonest network destroying theiving scumm for doing otherwise... but the system can't stop them.
2147 2013-04-20 19:36:24 <jspilman> heh
2148 2013-04-20 19:36:35 <etotheipi_> actually, interesting point jspilman
2149 2013-04-20 19:36:45 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: I'm sure you'll find a hole in this logic
2150 2013-04-20 19:36:52 <etotheipi_> let's say miners really are evil
2151 2013-04-20 19:36:54 <[Tycho]> Is there anyone knowing how stratum works ?
2152 2013-04-20 19:36:58 <etotheipi_> like... *really* evil
2153 2013-04-20 19:37:06 <etotheipi_> and 30% of them adopt a policy
2154 2013-04-20 19:37:38 <etotheipi_> the policy is that they will continue to mine the first non-final tx they see, even if they receive a valid replacement
2155 2013-04-20 19:38:16 <jspilman> nothing to stop them, right?
2156 2013-04-20 19:38:23 <etotheipi_> theoretically, thye don't have to "see" the replacements, and they're just mining whatever they did see
2157 2013-04-20 19:38:35 <etotheipi_> so 30% chance, your replacements are useless
2158 2013-04-20 19:39:01 <etotheipi_> (of course, most of the time replacement isn't intended to be "used", only as a backup if one party acts maliciously)
2159 2013-04-20 19:39:43 <etotheipi_> maybe this is what Mike Hearn was saying about how every replacement must have a higher fee, in order to be compelling for miners to do the replacement
2160 2013-04-20 19:39:53 <jspilman> so e.g. payment channels, you can't decrease the total paid to payee in a higher seq number, because payee can pay miners to mine the earlier one
2161 2013-04-20 19:39:56 <etotheipi_> ?
2162 2013-04-20 19:40:46 <jspilman> yeah, perhaps - but it's worse than that, because you can but a bounty for miners of the entire delta in a follow-on transaction
2163 2013-04-20 19:40:58 <jspilman> so for fees to be compelling, fees == delta
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2166 2013-04-20 19:41:25 <jspilman> delta being whatever the difference is to the payer/payee and they would then donate the miners just to screw with the other party
2167 2013-04-20 19:41:39 <etotheipi_> yeah... is my logic wrong?  should we consider replacement not be "guaranteed" other than the altruism of miners to do the replacement (which we have to assume they are altruistic since this whole discussion is about unethical miners)
2168 2013-04-20 19:41:43 <jspilman> s/but a bounty/put a bounty
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2170 2013-04-20 19:42:27 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: that was the point of the post about the bounty for maximally greedy replacement:  we can't embrace the reliability of replacment, so we should just reject it being reliable entirely.
2171 2013-04-20 19:42:33 <gmaxwell> I dunno.
2172 2013-04-20 19:42:39 <jspilman> that's the rub
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2175 2013-04-20 19:42:56 <jspilman> incremental fees don't fix it, because in the worst case the whole tx goes to fees
2176 2013-04-20 19:43:19 <jspilman> I mean, if one party wants to blow up the tx, they can force the whole tx to go to fees
2177 2013-04-20 19:43:21 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: I misunderstood... I thought we were talking about miners simply replacing already-final tx with another already-final tx, even though "normal" network behavior would be to drop the second one
2178 2013-04-20 19:43:24 <azizLIGHTS> how do i go about generating a bootstrap.dat file from bitcon-qt's fully synced blockchain data in %appdata%/bitcoin/blocks/*  ?
2179 2013-04-20 19:43:34 <jspilman> that's what I started asking about, then I changed the topic :-)
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2181 2013-04-20 19:43:44 <jspilman> sorry for jumping around
2182 2013-04-20 19:43:47 <sipa> azizLIGHTS: just concatenate the blk* files together
2183 2013-04-20 19:44:07 <etotheipi_> I didn't realize this also applied to legitimate replacements
2184 2013-04-20 19:44:14 <etotheipi_> (in the reverse)
2185 2013-04-20 19:44:23 <sipa> gmaxwell: what's your thought about that
2186 2013-04-20 19:44:36 <azizLIGHTS> sipa: is it only the blk* files? how do i concatenate them?
2187 2013-04-20 19:44:40 jMyles has joined
2188 2013-04-20 19:44:44 <sipa> azizLIGHTS: cat?
2189 2013-04-20 19:45:42 <sipa> it feels to me that a large part of the mempool behaviour (as intended by satoshi) depends on a hard-to-enforce agreement between nodes that implement it
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2191 2013-04-20 19:46:01 <gmaxwell> sipa: I have mixed thoughts. Actively undermining the security of the network is not in miners long term interests. But there are all kinds of weird things happening that make "miners" not very long term: miners are mostly pool ops who don't have long term hardware investments, etc.  Also— there is no great way to prevent defection.
2192 2013-04-20 19:46:04 AndChat377264 has joined
2193 2013-04-20 19:46:21 <sipa> exactly, it works as long as people do it
2194 2013-04-20 19:46:21 copumpkin has joined
2195 2013-04-20 19:46:36 <gmaxwell> I do have some affection for "if people can survive the worst case, lets make the best and worst case the same, so that no one is surprised" kind of thinking.
2196 2013-04-20 19:46:47 <sipa> but once a significant amount chooses a more short-term greedy approach, i don't know if it makes sense to not make it default
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2198 2013-04-20 19:47:25 <sipa> it'd be a false sense of security anyway
2199 2013-04-20 19:47:30 <gmaxwell> Often in interactions between parties the specific rules don't matter as much as the fact that both parties understand the rules they are transacting under.
2200 2013-04-20 19:47:39 <jspilman> I think more miners will eventually have code like Eligius which can detect 'optimal fee' scenarios -- and if you assume anything about miners, 'fee optimized' seems like a good assumption
2201 2013-04-20 19:48:00 <sipa> or fee per byte optimized, assuming block size limitations
2202 2013-04-20 19:48:17 <jspilman> hopefully! but tradgedy of the commons still applies
2203 2013-04-20 19:48:49 <jspilman> but yes, definitely if they are up against a block size limit
2204 2013-04-20 19:49:08 <jspilman> actually, block size limit is the only thing that will make a miner care about block size... good argument for reducing it!
2205 2013-04-20 19:49:15 <gmaxwell> otoh, we could actually fix some of this. For example, I could discourage blocks that mine a defecting replacement from one I've known for a while. I'd still think that forcing replacement to increase fees, however, would make sense.
2206 2013-04-20 19:49:48 <gmaxwell> jspilman: lol, I guess you haven't read much on that subject ... since thats something that people saying it needs to be limited have been saying all along. :)
2207 2013-04-20 19:49:54 <jspilman> 'discourage' as in 'try to orphan'?
2208 2013-04-20 19:50:01 <gmaxwell> Correct.
2209 2013-04-20 19:50:18 <jspilman> I should have said, 'the argument'
2210 2013-04-20 19:50:44 <gmaxwell> that works so long as most miners do it, but it's fragle and creates a longer time to consensus.
2211 2013-04-20 19:50:45 <jspilman> orphan attempts are costly unless you have a super-majority on your side
2212 2013-04-20 19:51:15 <gmaxwell> jspilman: sure but replacement being useful (esp replacement that involves increasing fees) is strongly in the public interest.
2213 2013-04-20 19:51:21 <gmaxwell> The thing we need to remove is the defection risk.
2214 2013-04-20 19:51:55 <jspilman> absolutely - but frustrating that it depends on concensus and not simply crypto
2215 2013-04-20 19:52:09 twobitcoins_ has joined
2216 2013-04-20 19:52:19 <sipa> Distributed systems are hard. Let's go do crypto.
2217 2013-04-20 19:52:21 <jspilman> I guess it all depends on concensus in the end, so not really any different
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2220 2013-04-20 19:52:47 <gmaxwell> On a related subject, it occured to me that my transaction-checkpoint thing could actually be extended to also enforce mempool consistency, but I couldn't figure out why someone would include things in their mempool commitments when it risks their txn not being mined.
2221 2013-04-20 19:53:05 <gmaxwell> jspilman: yea, it all reduces to concensus.
2222 2013-04-20 19:53:23 <gmaxwell> jspilman: "ecdsa broken! (by people not caring if the signatures are valid)"
2223 2013-04-20 19:53:23 <tonikt> hi guys. can anyone tell me how many unspent outputs are there ATM?
2224 2013-04-20 19:53:44 <gmaxwell> tonikt: run the gettxoutsetinfo rpc
2225 2013-04-20 19:54:02 <jspilman> but in the meantime, we simply have "ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : inputs already spent"
2226 2013-04-20 19:54:35 <tonikt> gmaxwell: thanks! did not know that command
2227 2013-04-20 19:54:36 <jspilman> I fixed my bug with SIGHASH_SINGLE and got through my whole payment channel poc
2228 2013-04-20 19:54:54 <jspilman> but of course, I get that at the end when I try to 'close the channel' since there's the nLockTime seq=0 already in the mempool
2229 2013-04-20 19:55:10 <tonikt> ok, so I'm missing few :)
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2232 2013-04-20 19:55:36 <jspilman> I was kind of hoping if I came along with a nSeq=MAX nLockTime=0 it would take it, but of course not
2233 2013-04-20 19:58:43 <jspilman> back to getting this enabled on test-net vs. Anti-DOS -- what about starting by allowing nSeq of 0 and MAX only?
2234 2013-04-20 19:59:41 <jspilman> although I don't really get why we need Anti-DoS just to enable replacement [with higher nSeq] on test-net
2235 2013-04-20 20:00:49 <gmaxwell> because enabling it on testnet in a form we couldn't possibly allow on mainnet seems silly.
2236 2013-04-20 20:00:51 <sipa> if it just gets enabled as-is right now, you can just keep sending tons of replaced versions of a transaction
2237 2013-04-20 20:01:15 <sipa> pay a fee once (in every replacement), and it will be relayed immediately without any throttling
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2240 2013-04-20 20:02:02 <jspilman> I guess at least it allows demonstrating things like payment channels actually working, where we can share txids, and build shared infrastructure around it
2241 2013-04-20 20:02:44 <gmaxwell> except they may have to work differently if anti-dos changes the kinds of txn they can create.
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2243 2013-04-20 20:02:49 nanotube is now known as bitcoin
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2245 2013-04-20 20:02:54 <jspilman> like multisig, it's not just about the network support, there's a lot of layers above that also take a LONG time to build
2246 2013-04-20 20:02:55 <gmaxwell> you can also do a payment channel without replacement.
2247 2013-04-20 20:03:01 <gmaxwell> so long as no one cheats.
2248 2013-04-20 20:03:10 <jspilman> certainly
2249 2013-04-20 20:03:13 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
2250 2013-04-20 20:03:15 <gmaxwell> jspilman: yes, so don't build for a system we _cannot_ deploy.
2251 2013-04-20 20:03:17 <jspilman> or use a 3rd party
2252 2013-04-20 20:03:29 bitcoin is now known as nanotube
2253 2013-04-20 20:03:35 <jspilman> well, so back to how about nSeq = 0 OR MAX
2254 2013-04-20 20:04:05 <jspilman> that enables a lot of replacement use cases, since a lot of cases can be reduced to needing exactly one replacement that will ever be broadcast
2255 2013-04-20 20:04:33 <gmaxwell> I don't see it.
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2257 2013-04-20 20:04:49 <sipa> that means breaking the semantics of nSeq=0, when you start to allow more nSeq values
2258 2013-04-20 20:05:06 <sipa> you want to enable rules in a way that is likely to ever work in practice
2259 2013-04-20 20:05:07 <jspilman> how so?
2260 2013-04-20 20:05:24 <sipa> from 'can be replaced once' to 'can be replaced'
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2262 2013-04-20 20:06:01 <jspilman> so the 2nd behavior is a proper superset, making the 1st behavior not a bad starting point
2263 2013-04-20 20:06:11 <jspilman> certainly non-forking
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2265 2013-04-20 20:06:34 <jspilman> right now we get nSeq=0 and nothing else, right?
2266 2013-04-20 20:06:47 <jspilman> once you broadcase nSeq=0 it's essentially the same as nSeq=MAX
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2269 2013-04-20 20:07:18 <sipa> i'd like enabling replacement, where the mempool keeps track of the sum of the sizes of replacements it has seen
2270 2013-04-20 20:07:31 <sipa> en does fee and priority calculations based on that summed size
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2272 2013-04-20 20:08:02 <sipa> it seems trivial to implement, and would prevent DoS no less than non-replacement transactions
2273 2013-04-20 20:08:14 <sipa> i only don't know whether it enabled the intended use cases
2274 2013-04-20 20:08:33 <jspilman> btw - I think it makes sense to enable replacement for non-final transactions first, and then consider this other case of replacing final non-mined transactions separately?  or do you think it should be all handled together by common code
2275 2013-04-20 20:09:27 <sipa> all depends on what 'we' want
2276 2013-04-20 20:10:06 <sipa> if we expect miners to go for greedy short-term behaviour, the only replacement rule that makes sense is "allow all replacement, if it improves fee (or fee/byte)"
2277 2013-04-20 20:10:38 <sipa> at that point, no infrastructure that depends on the specifics of replacing non-final transactions can work anymore, afaict
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2279 2013-04-20 20:11:45 <jspilman> if someone wrote a patch which improved miner fees by changing the mempool policy, how effective would it be?  I mean, if clients are not relaying then are miners hyper-connected in the p2p network so they will still get the transactions?
2280 2013-04-20 20:12:12 <jspilman> aside from the point that you would also need client code willing the transmit the tx in the first place
2281 2013-04-20 20:12:29 <sipa> miners would make sure they do are well-connected, so the replacement would work
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2287 2013-04-20 20:16:32 <jspilman> I guess someone trying to replace a tx would just be sure to run mempool policy that allows it, and connect directly to miners who could relay it between each other.  so 'ferengi miners' could happen regardless of what bitcoind implements
2288 2013-04-20 20:17:17 <jspilman> back to what 'users' want -- they want ways to speed up stuck transactions, and (less likely) they want payment channels
2289 2013-04-20 20:17:41 <jspilman> and ideally, they want to go on naively putting some amount of trust in 0-conf
2290 2013-04-20 20:17:59 <jspilman> delete 'ideally'
2291 2013-04-20 20:22:00 <jspilman> sipa: I think your approach definitely enables replacement use cases - I don't think replacement is a license for HFT over the P2P, if you are taking system resources you have to expect to pay
2292 2013-04-20 20:22:41 <jspilman> is there a (policy) limit to how soon nLockTime must be for a tx to be accepted into the mempool?
2293 2013-04-20 20:23:00 <sipa> yes, no non-final transactions are currently allowed in the mempool
2294 2013-04-20 20:23:19 <jspilman> even local mempool?
2295 2013-04-20 20:23:33 <sipa> which other is there that you can control?
2296 2013-04-20 20:23:47 <jspilman> I submitted a nSeq = 0 / nLockTime = DateTime + 15 minutes, and it accepted it, and ended up in a block, on test-net
2297 2013-04-20 20:24:04 <sipa> so, that means it's final?
2298 2013-04-20 20:24:13 <jspilman> why?
2299 2013-04-20 20:24:20 <sipa> because the locktime was in the future?
2300 2013-04-20 20:24:48 <jspilman> I thought "final" was defined as nSeq = MAX, sorry...
2301 2013-04-20 20:24:55 <sipa> that's one way
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2303 2013-04-20 20:25:21 <jspilman> so will mempool accept nSeq = 0 / nLockTime = 2020 ?
2304 2013-04-20 20:26:10 <sipa> yes
2305 2013-04-20 20:26:13 <sipa> eh, no
2306 2013-04-20 20:26:17 <sipa> wait, what
2307 2013-04-20 20:26:23 <sipa> i'm confused
2308 2013-04-20 20:26:35 <sipa> a transaction is final if it's locktime is in the past of course, not in the future
2309 2013-04-20 20:26:46 <wumpus> no way it will stay in the mempool that long, in practice, even if it were accepted
2310 2013-04-20 20:28:17 <jspilman> so mempool is accepting non-final, at least my 0.8.1 accepted a locktime 15 minutes in the future, and it ended up as http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/rawtx/b8ed89e90e1d4ce2c6abe9910d00d7417d14ac673e35db900048b45813ff1cd6
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2312 2013-04-20 20:29:24 <sipa> oh!
2313 2013-04-20 20:29:36 <sipa> the non-final test is done in IsStandard()
2314 2013-04-20 20:29:40 <sipa> which is disabled on testnet
2315 2013-04-20 20:29:54 <jspilman> wumpus: sure, I'm just thinking about exactly how the current policy works. e.g. if you can't replace, then perhaps you could set the nSeq=0 locktime far enough in the future that mempools wouldn't accept it until after the channel should be closed anyway
2316 2013-04-20 20:30:02 <jspilman> ah, perfect
2317 2013-04-20 20:30:13 <jspilman> so you can do payment channels on main-net today, even with "replacement"
2318 2013-04-20 20:30:25 <jspilman> because the refund transaction can't even be broadcast until after nLockTime
2319 2013-04-20 20:30:35 <jspilman> so testing on test-net was actually breaking my poc :-)
2320 2013-04-20 20:30:48 <jspilman> thank you very much
2321 2013-04-20 20:31:06 <jspilman> ok, now I *don't* want you to enable replacement :-P
2322 2013-04-20 20:31:27 <jspilman> lool
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2325 2013-04-20 20:32:30 <midnightmagic> is the leveldb stuff compatible across architectures (32 vs 64)?
2326 2013-04-20 20:32:57 <sipa> it should be
2327 2013-04-20 20:33:03 <midnightmagic> hrm.
2328 2013-04-20 20:33:06 <etotheipi_> sipa: this is interesting, I hadn't considered that my arguments for the replace-by-fee were all equally applicable to miners defecting on their "obligation" to replace tx according ot the rules
2329 2013-04-20 20:33:21 <etotheipi_> I guess I kind of have to accept neither or both
2330 2013-04-20 20:33:46 <etotheipi_> the "rules"
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2367 2013-04-20 21:03:36 <midnightmagic> hrm.. "Unacceptable log file /.bitcoin/database/log.0000000002: unsupported log version 17"
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2370 2013-04-20 21:09:25 <sipa> midnightmagic: BDB incompatibility
2371 2013-04-20 21:09:31 tcatm has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2372 2013-04-20 21:09:34 <midnightmagic> neat.
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2376 2013-04-20 21:09:59 <sipa> assuming you had a clean shutdown, you can just delete the database subdir on 0.8.0+
2377 2013-04-20 21:10:07 <sipa> in 0.7.x, you need -detachdb
2378 2013-04-20 21:12:19 <midnightmagic> sipa: Working fine. Thanks for the hint.
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2386 2013-04-20 21:19:21 <TheSeven> this whole endianness mess is driving me mad once again :/
2387 2013-04-20 21:19:23 dumpster has joined
2388 2013-04-20 21:19:34 * TheSeven fails at building the merkle tree
2389 2013-04-20 21:20:05 Industrial has joined
2390 2013-04-20 21:20:05 <TheSeven> I can successfully build valid blocks, unless they contain non-coinbase txns
2391 2013-04-20 21:20:09 TONNE is now known as iwilcox
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2393 2013-04-20 21:20:32 <TheSeven> is there anything (flipping, whatever) that I need to do to the transaction hashes provided by GBT before building the step hashes from them?
2394 2013-04-20 21:20:36 <Industrial> Is there a list of (free/open source) bitcoin charting software?
2395 2013-04-20 21:21:17 <Luke-Jr> TheSeven: since GBT doesn't guarantee the hashes, most clients just use the transaction data (and hash it)
2396 2013-04-20 21:21:59 <Luke-Jr> TheSeven: compare your code with libblkmaker or python-blkmaker?
2397 2013-04-20 21:22:40 <sipa> Luke-Jr: doesn't guarantee the hashes?
2398 2013-04-20 21:22:48 ThomasV has joined
2399 2013-04-20 21:23:07 <TheSeven> I wonder why there is no simple standard for endianness in the bitcoin world, it seems like every field works differently and I have to flip things around a dozen times to build a block
2400 2013-04-20 21:23:12 Spami has joined
2401 2013-04-20 21:23:31 <Luke-Jr> sipa: GBT responses might not have the "hash" key on transactions
2402 2013-04-20 21:23:51 <Luke-Jr> TheSeven: blame Satoshi :<
2403 2013-04-20 21:24:04 <Luke-Jr> TheSeven: but there shouldn't be any unnecessary endian issues in GBT
2404 2013-04-20 21:24:29 * TheSeven suspects that most of the inconsistencies weren't even then back when satoshi was still active
2405 2013-04-20 21:24:31 <sipa> TheSeven: it's really simple: it's always little-endian, except when it's related to cryptography :p
2406 2013-04-20 21:24:44 <sipa> (which is, unfortunately, frequently)
2407 2013-04-20 21:25:01 <TheSeven> hm, isn't most of it related to cryptography to varying degrees?
2408 2013-04-20 21:25:26 <sipa> right, but bitcoin pretty much considers crypto as black boxes
2409 2013-04-20 21:25:35 PK has quit ()
2410 2013-04-20 21:25:41 <sipa> for example, it considers sha256 as outputting a byte array
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2412 2013-04-20 21:26:03 <sipa> but even though the data in it is constructed using big-endian interpretation
2413 2013-04-20 21:26:06 * Luke-Jr facepalms
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2416 2013-04-20 21:26:15 <sipa> when converting it to a number, it's interpreted as little-endian
2417 2013-04-20 21:26:46 <Luke-Jr> TheSeven: dblsha(data)[::-1] == hash
2418 2013-04-20 21:26:56 HM2 has joined
2419 2013-04-20 21:27:08 <Luke-Jr> perhaps unnecessary, but probably done that way to match txids
2420 2013-04-20 21:27:17 <TheSeven> apparently not always
2421 2013-04-20 21:27:56 <Luke-Jr> merkletree uses the big-endian hash
2422 2013-04-20 21:28:02 <TheSeven> anyway, looks like I can get away with just hashing the transactions myself
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2431 2013-04-20 21:50:15 <turbo815> hello everyone.
2432 2013-04-20 21:50:33 <turbo815> i have a pool i was going to ask a couple people to try, maybe?
2433 2013-04-20 21:50:56 xenesis has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2434 2013-04-20 21:51:18 <turbo815> if anyone is interested send me a pm, maybe?
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2450 2013-04-20 22:07:28 <Luke-Jr> turbo815: wrong channel
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2466 2013-04-20 22:25:01 <MC1984_> if i wanted to make a requet for a small change to bitcoind for developers consideration, how best to do that
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2468 2013-04-20 22:25:49 <gmaxwell> mention it here and see if you get laughed at, then write it up as an issue if you don't.
2469 2013-04-20 22:26:09 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2470 2013-04-20 22:26:32 <MC1984_> i notice that printtoconsole actually redirects debug output and leaves the logfile empty
2471 2013-04-20 22:26:40 i2pRelay has joined
2472 2013-04-20 22:26:42 <MC1984_> would be more useful if it just duplicated it?
2473 2013-04-20 22:27:14 <MC1984_> and then maybe it could be called -verbose instead which is more conventional but whatever
2474 2013-04-20 22:28:33 <gmaxwell> I think you should totally submit a patch for that. It's a ~one line change.
2475 2013-04-20 22:28:54 fronti has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2476 2013-04-20 22:29:50 <MC1984_> that would make me happy
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2481 2013-04-20 22:33:42 <gmatteson_> hello all, would i be able to use getnewaddress myemail@domain.com to create a new address for a user?
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2483 2013-04-20 22:34:24 <[Tycho]> Why e-mail ?
2484 2013-04-20 22:34:33 <Luke-Jr> MC1984_: I wouldn't be surprised if someone objected, but seems reasonable to me.
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2486 2013-04-20 22:34:44 <Luke-Jr> MC1984_: good to learn the process, at least
2487 2013-04-20 22:34:47 <gmatteson_> or rather than email a userid that i specify the user
2488 2013-04-20 22:35:03 <Luke-Jr> gmatteson_: just be aware bitcoind does not scale
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2490 2013-04-20 22:35:40 <gmatteson_> okay. my thoughts are i may be able to limit a number of addresses per wallet and have multiple bitcoind's running on seperate systems
2491 2013-04-20 22:36:00 <gmatteson_> when i run getnewaddress i am returned - {"result":"13ZkCwkzdqPLE1PebrzBxRKUbydRmxNXGf","error":null,"id":"1"}
2492 2013-04-20 22:36:14 <gmatteson_> is that ID the 1st address for the wallet?
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2495 2013-04-20 22:37:26 <kadoban_> gmatteson_: i think that id is a JSONRPC thing, not bitcoin
2496 2013-04-20 22:37:41 <gmatteson_> ah okay, i wasnt sure, i think you are right
2497 2013-04-20 22:37:55 <Luke-Jr> gmatteson_: that means anything sent to 13ZkCwkzdqPLE1PebrzBxRKUbydRmxNXGf is added to the account you created
2498 2013-04-20 22:38:15 <gmatteson_> i just ran it again and another adresss was returned with the ID of 1 as well
2499 2013-04-20 22:38:19 <gmatteson_> okay thank you luke-jr
2500 2013-04-20 22:38:29 <gmatteson_> one last question.
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2502 2013-04-20 22:39:08 <gmatteson_> would this be the proper format to send to the bitcoind "getnewaddress 12345" with 12345 the userid that i created for the user
2503 2013-04-20 22:39:25 <Luke-Jr> you can use any kind of string you want as the account names
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2505 2013-04-20 22:40:04 <gmatteson_> ahh okay thanks. i am writing a quick little app so i can send commands to the bitcoind so i can see the results before i put it in code and i have been using
2506 2013-04-20 22:40:11 <gmatteson_> newtonsoft JSON for .NET
2507 2013-04-20 22:40:28 <gmatteson_> JObject objJSON = new JObject();                 objJSON.Add(new JProperty("jsonrpc", "1.0"));                 objJSON.Add(new JProperty("id", "1"));                 objJSON.Add(new JProperty("method", txtAPICommand.Text));                 objJSON.Add(new JProperty("params", new JArray()));
2508 2013-04-20 22:40:47 <gmatteson_> i just dont know how to send parameters from a textbox to the params seciton of this...
2509 2013-04-20 22:40:58 <gmatteson_> beacuse i dont know what bitcoind is expecting. thoughts?
2510 2013-04-20 22:41:13 <gmatteson_> i tried objJSON.Add(new JProperty("params", txtParams.text));
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2515 2013-04-20 22:42:48 <ubias> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_Calls_list
2516 2013-04-20 22:42:53 <ubias> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_(JSON-RPC)
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2518 2013-04-20 22:43:15 <ubias> http://www.copterlabs.com/blog/json-what-it-is-how-it-works-how-to-use-it/
2519 2013-04-20 22:43:27 <gmatteson_> thank you ubias-
2520 2013-04-20 22:46:18 <ubias> lookinto this txtAPICommand.Tex and this  new JArray()
2521 2013-04-20 22:46:19 <MC1984_> gmaxwell could you point me to the line number?
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2523 2013-04-20 22:47:11 <gmatteson_> if i dont add any parameters to the txtParams.text box then the command getnewaddress works
2524 2013-04-20 22:47:33 <gmatteson_> if i add something to this text box the command returns as 404 erorr.. not sure how to format the array to send to the bitcoind
2525 2013-04-20 22:47:44 <gmatteson_> so i can specify the name of the address when it gets created
2526 2013-04-20 22:47:48 <gmatteson_> reading those links you sent me
2527 2013-04-20 22:48:04 <gmaxwell> MC1984_: somewhere in util.cpp, search for the name of the commandline option.
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2534 2013-04-20 22:51:21 <MC1984_> ok
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2536 2013-04-20 22:52:17 <ubias> gmatteson_, iam not sure about .net  but  using curl if you replace txtAPICommand.Text with "getnewaddress" and newJArray with "acountname"
2537 2013-04-20 22:52:18 <ubias> it works
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2554 2013-04-20 23:09:54 <gmatteson_> thanks ubias. with curl it works, but with .NET hmm.. havent been able to get that to work yet. i think its the way the .NET libary is working.. looking into it some more. thanks
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2559 2013-04-20 23:12:35 <MC1984_> welp time to press that clone on windows button
2560 2013-04-20 23:12:45 <MC1984_> i have no idea what im doing, this should be fun
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