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  61 2013-04-22 00:53:32 <modroid> hi: on testnet, i'm using bitcoinj to send coins to bitcoin-qt. the coins are received by bitcoin-qt but on the sending (bitcoinj) side i see the transaction as Pending with the message 'Seen in side chain but not best chain.'
  62 2013-04-22 00:53:57 <modroid> am i (probably) using bitcoinj incorrectly, or might this be a testnet issue?
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  71 2013-04-22 00:56:32 <BlueMatt> modroid: how many blocks do you have
  72 2013-04-22 00:57:37 <modroid> you mean how deep is the block?
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  74 2013-04-22 00:58:22 <BlueMatt> no, what is the total block count displayed/top block hash?>
  75 2013-04-22 00:59:17 <modroid> checking
  76 2013-04-22 01:00:02 <BlueMatt> also, are you running in full-verification mode (ie FullPruned mode) or in SPV mode?
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  79 2013-04-22 01:00:22 <modroid> SPV mode, it looks like my chain stopped updating. thanks.
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  82 2013-04-22 01:00:59 <BlueMatt> ok, thats what I thought
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  84 2013-04-22 01:01:22 <BlueMatt> if you find out why it stopped updating (and it wasnt your fault/uncontrollable circumstances), please share
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 156 2013-04-22 02:11:01 <Steve132> HM2: re: using libraries.  I totally agree.
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 257 2013-04-22 03:39:43 <c4pt> anyone have experience setting up poolserverj ?
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 260 2013-04-22 03:43:26 <Luke-Jr> c4pt: it won't work as-is, it hasn't been maintained in years
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 263 2013-04-22 03:43:38 <c4pt> oh ok
 264 2013-04-22 03:43:43 <Luke-Jr> c4pt: I believe Eleuthria from BTCGuild offered patches though
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 266 2013-04-22 03:43:47 <c4pt> Luke-Jr, its better use pushpool ?
 267 2013-04-22 03:43:58 <Luke-Jr> c4pt: no, pushpool hasn't been maintained in even longer :p
 268 2013-04-22 03:44:10 <c4pt> Luke-Jr, whats good to use for a backend for scrypt + sha256 ?
 269 2013-04-22 03:44:18 <Luke-Jr> c4pt: as far as I know, only Eloipool is both free software and maintained
 270 2013-04-22 03:44:25 <c4pt> ok
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 272 2013-04-22 03:44:29 <Luke-Jr> I'm not aware of anything supporting scrypt
 273 2013-04-22 03:44:31 <c4pt> illl look into it
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 290 2013-04-22 03:58:55 <c4pt> Luke-Jr, i configured eloipool config.py.example
 291 2013-04-22 03:59:00 <c4pt> Luke-Jr, how do you actually run this ?
 292 2013-04-22 03:59:07 <c4pt> Luke-Jr, im not used to using python
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 294 2013-04-22 03:59:47 <Luke-Jr> the same way you run any script.. ./eloipool.py
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 297 2013-04-22 04:06:49 <c4pt> Luke-Jr, not sure i configured the config.py
 298 2013-04-22 04:06:57 <c4pt> and i try to run ./eloipool.py
 299 2013-04-22 04:07:02 <c4pt> but i get python errors
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 304 2013-04-22 04:08:41 <c4pt> http://pastie.org/7695513
 305 2013-04-22 04:08:51 <c4pt> using this for scrypt
 306 2013-04-22 04:08:52 <c4pt> https://github.com/Tydus/eloipool-litecoin
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 308 2013-04-22 04:09:17 <c4pt> nevermind
 309 2013-04-22 04:09:24 <c4pt> i realize it has its own depenedies
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 325 2013-04-22 04:37:29 <meLon> litecoin,e h?
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 327 2013-04-22 04:38:34 <Luke-Jr> note, this is #BITcoin-dev
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 356 2013-04-22 04:59:09 <etotheipi_> can someone clarify for me how CPartialMerkleTree structures are serialized:  http://pastebin.com/0SPxcnq1
 357 2013-04-22 04:59:29 <etotheipi_> I've been digging in the code, and this is my understanding of it, but I'm not convinced that's how it's actually done
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 374 2013-04-22 05:11:48 <c4pt> anyone know how to get hashrate from a worker into mysql using pushpool?
 375 2013-04-22 05:12:22 <c4pt> like if pushpool is running and my miner is connected to pushpool how can i get the miner's hashrate to reflect into mysql in a "hashrate" column ?
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 378 2013-04-22 05:14:06 <c4pt> currently using this in my .cfg
 379 2013-04-22 05:14:06 <c4pt>  "stmt.pwdb":"SELECT `password` FROM `pool_worker` WHERE `username` = ?",
 380 2013-04-22 05:14:07 <c4pt>                 "stmt.sharelog":"INSERT INTO shares (rem_host, username, our_result, upstream_result, reason, solution, timestamp_c, source, network) VALUES (?, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?)"
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 383 2013-04-22 05:15:13 <Luke-Jr> c4pt: pushpool doesn't know hashrates
 384 2013-04-22 05:15:47 <kronicd_> I'm trying to use testnet in a box but when I send a getwork all nodes constantly say that they are currently downloading blocks
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 387 2013-04-22 05:15:51 <kronicd_> is there a way to solve this?
 388 2013-04-22 05:15:52 <c4pt> Luke-Jr, coinmines uses pushpool
 389 2013-04-22 05:15:59 <c4pt> Luke-Jr, im using coinmines
 390 2013-04-22 05:16:11 <c4pt> Luke-Jr, there must be a way to get hashrate into coinmines to update the db
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 396 2013-04-22 05:19:38 <c4pt> Luke-Jr, its not true
 397 2013-04-22 05:19:44 <c4pt> Luke-Jr, *thats not true
 398 2013-04-22 05:19:54 <c4pt> Luke-Jr, when mmcfe is running with pushpool it gets the hash rates
 399 2013-04-22 05:20:06 <Luke-Jr> c4pt: have fun on a wild goose chase then
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 455 2013-04-22 06:17:13 <_pr> does anyone have a recommendation for an IDE for bitcoin development? (windows/ubuntu/both)
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 458 2013-04-22 06:23:26 <Luke-Jr> _pr: Kate
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 489 2013-04-22 06:51:06 csc` has joined
 490 2013-04-22 06:51:34 <csc`> So my wallet.dat file apparently corrupted during the initial sync somehow, don't know why or what happened
 491 2013-04-22 06:52:09 <csc`> the wallet is encrypted, i remember the key, but any attempts to translate it into json to try to salvage it have failed
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 495 2013-04-22 06:55:15 <MC1984_> its not corrupt
 496 2013-04-22 06:55:26 <Luke-Jr> csc`: brand new wallet?
 497 2013-04-22 06:55:46 <csc`> Luke-Jr, yes, but it should have a few decimal places of bitcoins in it
 498 2013-04-22 06:55:52 <csc`> this happened a few weeks back
 499 2013-04-22 06:55:57 <Luke-Jr> csc`: why do you think it's corrupt?
 500 2013-04-22 06:55:59 <csc`> i have hence deleted the blockchain
 501 2013-04-22 06:56:07 <csc`> Luke-Jr, because converting it to json didn't work
 502 2013-04-22 06:56:15 bitit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 503 2013-04-22 06:56:17 <csc`> Luke-Jr, blockchain.info refused to accept it
 504 2013-04-22 06:56:25 <csc`> and the client told me it was corrupt.
 505 2013-04-22 06:56:28 <Luke-Jr> csc`: how would you convert it to JSON?
 506 2013-04-22 06:56:42 <csc`> let me see if i still have the tool
 507 2013-04-22 06:56:53 bitit has joined
 508 2013-04-22 06:56:54 <Luke-Jr> .. that tool probably corrupted it XD
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 510 2013-04-22 06:57:30 <csc`> Luke-Jr, this happened before i even did that
 511 2013-04-22 06:57:33 <csc`> Luke-Jr, and it was pywallet
 512 2013-04-22 06:57:50 i2pRelay has joined
 513 2013-04-22 06:57:55 <csc`> i tried pywallet to convert it to json to see if i could import it into blockchain
 514 2013-04-22 06:58:17 <csc`> when that didn't work i decided i should use my utab430 thats usually in airplane mode for the bitcoin wallet for android
 515 2013-04-22 06:58:39 <Luke-Jr> csc`: what happens if you run this? db4.8_dump ~/.bitcoin/wallet.dat
 516 2013-04-22 06:59:01 desidero has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
 517 2013-04-22 06:59:12 <Luke-Jr> csc`: wallet files are not compatible between different clients..
 518 2013-04-22 06:59:14 <csc`> let me reinstall it
 519 2013-04-22 06:59:20 <Luke-Jr> you don't need to install it
 520 2013-04-22 06:59:25 <Luke-Jr> db4.8_dump isn't part of bitcoin
 521 2013-04-22 06:59:33 <csc`> i removed all dependancies.
 522 2013-04-22 06:59:38 <csc`> including db4.8
 523 2013-04-22 07:00:01 <csc`> the wallet was generated and used by bitcoin-qt.
 524 2013-04-22 07:00:03 <csc`> no other wallets
 525 2013-04-22 07:00:15 <csc`> the blockchain.info import was an attempt to salvage it
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 534 2013-04-22 07:06:35 <csc`> Luke-Jr, it dumps a bunch of what look like encrypted key strains
 535 2013-04-22 07:06:50 <csc`> if i were dumb i probably would pastebin it
 536 2013-04-22 07:07:25 <Luke-Jr> csc`: if it's an encrypted wallet, it would just leak your privacy
 537 2013-04-22 07:07:29 <shesek> if the wallet is encrypted, there shouldn't be any sensitive data there
 538 2013-04-22 07:07:43 <Luke-Jr> shesek: some people would consider their transaction history and notes sensitive :p
 539 2013-04-22 07:08:01 <csc`> Luke-Jr, it seems to be normal, but i dont know what 'normal' is
 540 2013-04-22 07:08:04 <shesek> well, its all on the public blockchain anyway
 541 2013-04-22 07:08:17 <csc`> id presume if it were corrupt it wouldnt've read the wallet, right
 542 2013-04-22 07:08:28 <shesek> but its quite impossible to connect them all to a someone
 543 2013-04-22 07:08:36 <Luke-Jr> csc`: well, at the very least you know there's data there
 544 2013-04-22 07:08:53 <Luke-Jr> shesek: your notes and such are not
 545 2013-04-22 07:08:59 <csc`> is electrum friendly to import encrypted bitcoin-qt wallets?
 546 2013-04-22 07:09:02 <csc`> because multibit is garbage
 547 2013-04-22 07:09:12 <Luke-Jr> nothing is AFAIK
 548 2013-04-22 07:09:32 <Luke-Jr> backup your wallet.dat and try starting bitcoin-qt with the -salvagewallet option
 549 2013-04-22 07:09:46 <csc`> its backed up but i dont have the required space for bitcoin-qt
 550 2013-04-22 07:10:02 <csc`> and write speeds were slower than the addition of new blocks
 551 2013-04-22 07:10:07 <csc`> so it never finished syncing
 552 2013-04-22 07:10:28 <shesek> I just tried sending 160 BTC over the testnet; it tells me that the fee is 15.015 BTC
 553 2013-04-22 07:10:31 <csc`> this happened one night when it finally got to less than 10k blocks needed to sync
 554 2013-04-22 07:10:43 <shesek> is that a realistic fee for such a transaction on the main network?
 555 2013-04-22 07:10:51 <shesek> sounds like quite a lot
 556 2013-04-22 07:11:22 <shesek> almost 10% of the payment
 557 2013-04-22 07:11:40 <Luke-Jr> shesek: erm, that should'nt be possible on ANY network..
 558 2013-04-22 07:12:12 GlitchNZ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 559 2013-04-22 07:12:42 <shesek> well, that's what my client told me
 560 2013-04-22 07:13:06 <shesek> http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/tx/51aae27959d16fe74262b8e1ea49d81d29752c536ba175fd67955839f0bdc21b (not showing up yet)
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 563 2013-04-22 07:13:41 <shesek> Debit: -160.00 BTC
 564 2013-04-22 07:13:43 <shesek> Transaction fee: -15.015 BTC
 565 2013-04-22 07:13:43 <shesek> Net amount: -175.015 BTC
 566 2013-04-22 07:13:46 <csc`> Luke-Jr, so there is no tool i can use standalone to decrypt the wallet or import it into a lightweight wallet?
 567 2013-04-22 07:13:54 i2pRelay has joined
 568 2013-04-22 07:13:54 <shesek> (from the "transaction details" in bitcoin-qt)
 569 2013-04-22 07:14:00 <Luke-Jr> csc`: not that I'm aware of
 570 2013-04-22 07:14:43 <csc`> Luke-Jr, no lightweight version of bitcoin-qt either, huh
 571 2013-04-22 07:14:43 <csc`> :(
 572 2013-04-22 07:14:53 <csc`> hrm
 573 2013-04-22 07:14:55 <Luke-Jr> not yet
 574 2013-04-22 07:14:59 <gmaxwell> shesek: did you create the transaction with the raw transactions interface?
 575 2013-04-22 07:15:04 mollison has joined
 576 2013-04-22 07:15:05 <csc`> what about commandline bitcoin Luke-Jr
 577 2013-04-22 07:15:09 <shesek> nope, just a regular transaction
 578 2013-04-22 07:15:10 <gmaxwell> shesek: and what did you have the default fee set to
 579 2013-04-22 07:15:19 <Luke-Jr> csc`: same core code
 580 2013-04-22 07:15:21 GMP has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 581 2013-04-22 07:15:21 <csc`> i have a vps which would be better suited to download the blockchain
 582 2013-04-22 07:15:28 <csc`> and has more available space
 583 2013-04-22 07:15:45 GlitchNZ has joined
 584 2013-04-22 07:15:47 <shesek> oh, heh. its set to ~5 BTC
 585 2013-04-22 07:15:49 <mollison> when i try to make a gnupg passphrase longer than 500 chars, the dialog box fails. anybody have any knowledge about this?
 586 2013-04-22 07:15:52 <shesek> I wonder why I did that
 587 2013-04-22 07:15:56 <gmaxwell> shesek: well then.
 588 2013-04-22 07:16:02 <shesek> how did it end up as 15?
 589 2013-04-22 07:16:13 <gmaxwell> shesek: because you created a 3kbyte transaction.
 590 2013-04-22 07:16:14 <shesek> and yeah, my bad :O
 591 2013-04-22 07:18:09 idstam has joined
 592 2013-04-22 07:18:18 <csc`> hrm. no debian repository for bitcoin-qt?
 593 2013-04-22 07:18:23 <csc`> sadface.
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 598 2013-04-22 07:24:08 <GlitchNZ> csc: There is a deb package
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 603 2013-04-22 07:25:05 <csc`> well now im wondering how i would import my encrypted wallet into bitcoind
 604 2013-04-22 07:25:18 <csc`> bitcoind was in backports
 605 2013-04-22 07:25:32 <GlitchNZ> sorry, yes bitcoind has a deb package
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 607 2013-04-22 07:26:08 <GlitchNZ> csc - do you need to combine your encrypted wallet with an existing one, or just get bitcoind running with your wallet file?
 608 2013-04-22 07:26:15 gst has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 609 2013-04-22 07:26:35 <GlitchNZ> bitcoin looks in ~/.bitcoin/ for the wallet file
 610 2013-04-22 07:27:00 <csc`> i just need it running with the existing one
 611 2013-04-22 07:27:10 <csc`> so just drop the wallet into .bitcoin and it should work fine?
 612 2013-04-22 07:27:18 <GlitchNZ> wait
 613 2013-04-22 07:27:36 <GlitchNZ> if you do that it will overwrite the wallet.dat file in there
 614 2013-04-22 07:27:51 <csc`> i dont need the new one
 615 2013-04-22 07:27:53 <csc`> just the old one :(
 616 2013-04-22 07:27:55 <GlitchNZ> ok
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 619 2013-04-22 07:28:02 <GlitchNZ> yes, copy the wallet file there
 620 2013-04-22 07:28:02 <csc`> but that would work, yes?
 621 2013-04-22 07:28:07 <csc`> okay
 622 2013-04-22 07:28:19 <GlitchNZ> you may need to set up a conf file if its encrypted...
 623 2013-04-22 07:28:24 robbak has joined
 624 2013-04-22 07:28:28 <csc`> was hoping a bitcoin-qt package though
 625 2013-04-22 07:28:33 <GlitchNZ> unless it asks you for the password on start
 626 2013-04-22 07:28:33 mollison has left ("PART #gnupg :QUIT :Leaving.")
 627 2013-04-22 07:28:35 <csc`> so i could attempt to X11 tunnel
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 632 2013-04-22 07:29:34 <GlitchNZ> csc: 2 options, 1) download the program and install it manually, 2) use the ubuntu package - it will almost certainly work jsut as well
 633 2013-04-22 07:29:54 <GlitchNZ> http://packages.ubuntu.com/raring/utils/bitcoin-qt
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 635 2013-04-22 07:30:03 <GlitchNZ> down load the deb from there and try installing it
 636 2013-04-22 07:30:10 <GlitchNZ> cant hurt to try
 637 2013-04-22 07:30:13 <csc`> bitcoin-qt is now in the official repos?
 638 2013-04-22 07:30:14 <csc`> nice.
 639 2013-04-22 07:30:43 <GlitchNZ> cs: even better - its in sid
 640 2013-04-22 07:30:56 <csc`> i think im running squeeze
 641 2013-04-22 07:31:01 <GlitchNZ> add sid to your sources, apt-get update, then install
 642 2013-04-22 07:31:13 <GlitchNZ> then remove sid from your sources when your done
 643 2013-04-22 07:31:20 <GlitchNZ> and do another apt-get update just to be saf
 644 2013-04-22 07:31:32 <csc`> i dont mind keeping it available
 645 2013-04-22 07:31:38 <GlitchNZ> csc: yes you do
 646 2013-04-22 07:31:53 <csc`> talking about bitcoin-qt
 647 2013-04-22 07:32:27 <GlitchNZ> csc: sure, just don't leave sid in your sources - it will cause you headaches if you install other software and forget that its there
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 650 2013-04-22 07:34:04 <csc`> sid was what
 651 2013-04-22 07:34:06 <GlitchNZ> csc: Also, in future you should always check sid for bitcoin stuff, because it changes quickly and the debian development lifecycle is painfully slow, chances are sid will have what you are looking for
 652 2013-04-22 07:34:06 <csc`> debian 5?
 653 2013-04-22 07:34:15 <csc`> or is sid the next version
 654 2013-04-22 07:34:15 <Luke-Jr> csc`: sid is perpetual unstable
 655 2013-04-22 07:34:15 <GlitchNZ> csc: sid=unstable
 656 2013-04-22 07:34:21 <csc`> i see
 657 2013-04-22 07:34:39 <Luke-Jr> csc`: think the Sid from Toy Story
 658 2013-04-22 07:34:46 <csc`> dont recall
 659 2013-04-22 07:34:54 <Luke-Jr> csc`: the bad kid
 660 2013-04-22 07:35:02 <Luke-Jr> blowing up crap
 661 2013-04-22 07:35:05 <GlitchNZ> csc: All debian releases are named after toy story charcters
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 666 2013-04-22 07:36:05 <csc`> squeeze is who then?
 667 2013-04-22 07:36:06 <csc`> lol
 668 2013-04-22 07:36:14 <csc`> i dont remember a squeeze in toy story
 669 2013-04-22 07:36:25 <GlitchNZ> csc: They are the aliens
 670 2013-04-22 07:36:30 <GlitchNZ> the tou aliens
 671 2013-04-22 07:36:33 <GlitchNZ> *toy
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 673 2013-04-22 07:36:56 <GlitchNZ> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Toy_Story_characters
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 677 2013-04-22 07:37:35 <csc`> it upgrades a few critical system packages i see.
 678 2013-04-22 07:37:41 <csc`> hopefully that doesn't affect it
 679 2013-04-22 07:37:48 <csc`> :(
 680 2013-04-22 07:37:59 i2pRelay has joined
 681 2013-04-22 07:38:01 <GlitchNZ> csc: it is ok, but you need to remember one thing
 682 2013-04-22 07:38:04 <Luke-Jr> I would not advise upgrading anything from sid..
 683 2013-04-22 07:38:34 <csc`> i was more concerned about the standard c library being updated
 684 2013-04-22 07:38:44 BlackPrapor has joined
 685 2013-04-22 07:38:47 <csc`> and gcc
 686 2013-04-22 07:38:57 <csc`> but gcc seems to be a separate package
 687 2013-04-22 07:39:01 <csc`> all the libraries are updates though
 688 2013-04-22 07:39:06 <GlitchNZ> if a future package you install is dependent on that system package you will get dependency errors, which will mean you will need to use sid releases, it just kind of grows on you, like a fungus
 689 2013-04-22 07:39:41 <Luke-Jr> this is why I use Gentoo :P
 690 2013-04-22 07:39:45 <GlitchNZ> csc: you just did apt-get install right?
 691 2013-04-22 07:40:17 Steve132 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 692 2013-04-22 07:40:39 <csc`> yes
 693 2013-04-22 07:40:44 <csc`> apt-get install bitcoin-qt
 694 2013-04-22 07:40:52 <csc`> which is updating more packages i'd rather not update
 695 2013-04-22 07:40:53 <csc`> but meh
 696 2013-04-22 07:41:03 <csc`> if you whois me you'll see im no stranger to bleeding edge.
 697 2013-04-22 07:41:11 <GlitchNZ> csc: Its up to you - if you know you are going to be installing lots of software/dev tools, then I would recommend NOT upgrading important packages - it will give you headaches later
 698 2013-04-22 07:41:37 <GlitchNZ> however, if this is just the last package you need to get your system going the way you like, then it is probably fine
 699 2013-04-22 07:41:58 <csc`>   fontconfig-config libc-bin libc6 libdbus-1-3 libfontconfig1 libstdc++6 libtiff4 locales are the upgrades
 700 2013-04-22 07:42:05 <csc`> and GlitchNZ this is my vps we're talking about
 701 2013-04-22 07:42:18 <csc`> ..stalling on sendmail restart
 702 2013-04-22 07:42:22 <csc`> probably due to something stupid
 703 2013-04-22 07:42:33 <csc`> all services restarted successfully
 704 2013-04-22 07:42:41 <GlitchNZ> just remember 1) remove sid source when done and to apt-get update. 2)if when you install a pacakge in the future it complains that it can't because it cant find a package, then you need to re-add sid to your sources for that package
 705 2013-04-22 07:43:28 <GlitchNZ> If you are on top of it, you can hopefully void problems until bitcoin-qt is in wheezy, at which point it is less of a concern
 706 2013-04-22 07:44:09 <GlitchNZ> csc: What do you use your vps for? and why would you want a GUI application on a vps?
 707 2013-04-22 07:44:30 <csc`> X11 forwarding via ssh
 708 2013-04-22 07:44:54 <GlitchNZ> One peice of advice friend: Learn the command line
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 714 2013-04-22 07:47:15 <GlitchNZ> It can be tedious sometimes, but if your programming, setting up servers etc - using the command line will make you better at what you do in many ways
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 721 2013-04-22 07:53:43 <csc`> bah
 722 2013-04-22 07:53:46 <csc`> i cant get x11 forwarding to work
 723 2013-04-22 07:53:52 * csc` stabs ubuntu
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 727 2013-04-22 07:57:41 <GlitchNZ> what OS is your client?
 728 2013-04-22 07:58:04 <csc`> lubuntu 12.10
 729 2013-04-22 07:58:16 <GlitchNZ> so" ssh user@host -X
 730 2013-04-22 07:58:20 <GlitchNZ> right?
 731 2013-04-22 07:58:22 <csc`> im not that dumb
 732 2013-04-22 07:58:24 <csc`> its server side
 733 2013-04-22 07:58:32 <csc`> the vps isn't setting a display
 734 2013-04-22 07:58:38 <GlitchNZ> did you set up the OS on your vps?
 735 2013-04-22 07:58:47 fishfish has joined
 736 2013-04-22 07:58:48 <SomeoneWeird> anyone able to send me some testnet coins?
 737 2013-04-22 07:58:52 <GlitchNZ> or did the provider do it?
 738 2013-04-22 07:59:01 <GlitchNZ> SomeoneWeird: how many would you like?
 739 2013-04-22 07:59:16 <csc`> provider did it
 740 2013-04-22 07:59:22 <SomeoneWeird> as many as you can give, i suppose
 741 2013-04-22 07:59:25 <Habbie> i have a testnet wallet with, i think, a couple hundred testnet coins in it
 742 2013-04-22 07:59:25 <kadoban> SomeoneWeird: http://tpfaucet.appspot.com/ if it helps
 743 2013-04-22 07:59:27 <csc`> but X11 forwarding is enabled in sshd_config
 744 2013-04-22 07:59:39 <kadoban> SomeoneWeird: and http://testnet.mojocoin.com/
 745 2013-04-22 07:59:42 OPrime has joined
 746 2013-04-22 07:59:52 <GlitchNZ> SomoneWeird: address
 747 2013-04-22 08:00:10 parasciidic has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 748 2013-04-22 08:00:10 <SomeoneWeird> mjHhtYtRxr4e62zETdJh4BwX8iRfhwzCQa
 749 2013-04-22 08:00:58 <GlitchNZ> will 50 be enough?
 750 2013-04-22 08:01:06 <SomeoneWeird> plently
 751 2013-04-22 08:01:17 <GlitchNZ> I have thousands
 752 2013-04-22 08:01:31 <SomeoneWeird> maybe a couple hundred then
 753 2013-04-22 08:01:33 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 754 2013-04-22 08:01:33 <SomeoneWeird> if that's alright :)
 755 2013-04-22 08:02:04 i2pRelay has joined
 756 2013-04-22 08:02:16 <SomeoneWeird> kadoban, cheers
 757 2013-04-22 08:02:38 parasciidic has joined
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 760 2013-04-22 08:02:54 <GlitchNZ> another 150 on the way
 761 2013-04-22 08:03:17 <SomeoneWeird> awesome, thanks
 762 2013-04-22 08:03:21 <GlitchNZ> csc`: Some hosting companies have sutomised versions of Ubuntu/Debian
 763 2013-04-22 08:03:26 <GlitchNZ> *customised
 764 2013-04-22 08:03:51 <csc`> its mostly stock debian
 765 2013-04-22 08:03:55 <GlitchNZ> They also often have their own VNC type software hooked in as well
 766 2013-04-22 08:03:59 <Habbie> i have .bitcoin/testnet/wallet.dat, can i somehow migrate those to testnet3 or has there been a testnet reset?
 767 2013-04-22 08:04:03 <csc`> its not running vnc.
 768 2013-04-22 08:04:09 <csc`> i have clean ssh access
 769 2013-04-22 08:04:10 fishfish_ has joined
 770 2013-04-22 08:04:22 <SomeoneWeird> Habbie, reset
 771 2013-04-22 08:04:25 <Habbie> ok
 772 2013-04-22 08:04:27 <GlitchNZ> Not sure, maybe ask in #debian
 773 2013-04-22 08:04:30 <Habbie> so i can just toss it out :)
 774 2013-04-22 08:04:34 <Habbie> thanks
 775 2013-04-22 08:04:44 root___ has joined
 776 2013-04-22 08:04:59 <GlitchNZ> I can generate a block every 20 minutes on testnet
 777 2013-04-22 08:05:04 <GlitchNZ> If only the real network was that good
 778 2013-04-22 08:05:07 <SomeoneWeird> with what speed?
 779 2013-04-22 08:05:07 bitit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 780 2013-04-22 08:05:44 <GlitchNZ> 200MH's
 781 2013-04-22 08:06:03 <GlitchNZ> And thats my laptop
 782 2013-04-22 08:06:28 dbe has joined
 783 2013-04-22 08:06:34 <SomeoneWeird> nice
 784 2013-04-22 08:06:55 dbe is now known as Guest83584
 785 2013-04-22 08:08:00 <kadoban> GlitchNZ: by that measure it seems like there must be only one miner on testnet, heh...that's about the rate of mining i notice when i'm using it usually
 786 2013-04-22 08:08:34 fishfish has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 787 2013-04-22 08:08:48 El has joined
 788 2013-04-22 08:08:56 <GlitchNZ> Yeah - i work on the policy of always running my miner when using testnet - not for the coins, but just to help the network function, and make sure my transactions are actually processed
 789 2013-04-22 08:09:06 bitit has joined
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 792 2013-04-22 08:09:15 <kadoban> right. i'd do the same if my hardware wasn't awful :/
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 794 2013-04-22 08:09:45 <GlitchNZ> I didn't realise they were that easy, until my CPU produced one just within the bitcoin qt client itself
 795 2013-04-22 08:10:03 root___ has quit (Quit: ircII EPIC5-1.1.2 -- Are we there yet?)
 796 2013-04-22 08:10:03 <GlitchNZ> su just set mine to true and you will accumulate coins
 797 2013-04-22 08:10:07 i2pRelay has joined
 798 2013-04-22 08:10:32 <kadoban> GlitchNZ: err...is that even possible in the current client? i thought that functionality was removed
 799 2013-04-22 08:10:54 brwyatt has joined
 800 2013-04-22 08:10:59 <GlitchNZ> Well I wasnt running a miner and I found a block
 801 2013-04-22 08:11:09 <kadoban> huh, weird
 802 2013-04-22 08:11:12 nouitfvf has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 803 2013-04-22 08:11:17 <GlitchNZ> So unless my computer has magic powers, it doesn't many other options
 804 2013-04-22 08:11:23 esas has joined
 805 2013-04-22 08:11:42 <GlitchNZ> kadoban: it must be possible anyway, I have my miner connecting to it
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 807 2013-04-22 08:12:33 <csc`> success!
 808 2013-04-22 08:12:41 macboz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 809 2013-04-22 08:12:41 <csc`> i has bitcoin-qt running off my vps
 810 2013-04-22 08:12:46 <csc`> and forwarded locally
 811 2013-04-22 08:12:55 <GlitchNZ> yay
 812 2013-04-22 08:13:13 <csc`> oh man the ssd and faster network speed is great
 813 2013-04-22 08:13:14 <csc`> haha
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 817 2013-04-22 08:13:37 <csc`> its syncing too fast for my lowly tether to keep up with
 818 2013-04-22 08:13:40 <csc`> even with compression enabled
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 859 2013-04-22 08:55:54 <sipa> csc`: which butcoin version is that?
 860 2013-04-22 08:56:20 <Scrat> an unfortunate typo
 861 2013-04-22 08:56:33 duckybsd has joined
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 864 2013-04-22 08:57:56 <csc`> sipa, latest?
 865 2013-04-22 08:58:02 <csc`> or whatever version is in sid
 866 2013-04-22 08:58:02 paybitcoin1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 867 2013-04-22 08:58:21 <csc`> sync has stagnated so perhaps my vps provider has throttled me
 868 2013-04-22 08:58:22 <csc`> :(
 869 2013-04-22 08:58:23 i2pRelay has joined
 870 2013-04-22 08:59:11 <sipa> etotheipi_: poke me and i'll explain the serialization for PMT
 871 2013-04-22 09:00:45 <sipa> csc`: that is exactly what i want to know... which version do they package
 872 2013-04-22 09:00:57 <sipa> bitcoind getinfo will tell you
 873 2013-04-22 09:01:41 Impaler has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
 874 2013-04-22 09:02:03 <csc`> sipa, bitcoin-qt 1.7.2
 875 2013-04-22 09:02:05 Impaler has joined
 876 2013-04-22 09:02:10 <csc`> - the 1
 877 2013-04-22 09:02:17 <sipa> ow
 878 2013-04-22 09:02:24 <csc`> 0.7.2
 879 2013-04-22 09:02:28 <sipa> that'll break after may 15
 880 2013-04-22 09:02:34 <csc`> lolwut?
 881 2013-04-22 09:03:09 <Luke-Jr> I thought sid had 0.8.1
 882 2013-04-22 09:03:14 parasciidic has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 883 2013-04-22 09:03:47 <sipa> csc`: http://bitcoin.org/may15.html
 884 2013-04-22 09:03:52 <Luke-Jr> hmm, apparently there's some new non-sid unstable for debian O.o
 885 2013-04-22 09:04:22 <Luke-Jr> sipa: will probably be tagging a hopefully-last RC for 0.7.3 later today FYI
 886 2013-04-22 09:04:35 <Scrat> 0.8.0 is ok for may 15 isnt it?
 887 2013-04-22 09:05:08 <Luke-Jr> Scrat: yes - but not ok for today
 888 2013-04-22 09:05:20 <Scrat> Luke-Jr: im not a pool operator
 889 2013-04-22 09:05:28 <Luke-Jr> Scrat: shrug
 890 2013-04-22 09:05:30 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 891 2013-04-22 09:05:53 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 892 2013-04-22 09:05:55 <Luke-Jr> Scrat: I guess as long as you don't accept >=25 BTC from a single person it's okay
 893 2013-04-22 09:05:58 <csc`> what was the command to fix the wallet on commandline Luke-Jr?
 894 2013-04-22 09:06:02 <csc`> with bitcoin-qt?
 895 2013-04-22 09:06:16 <Luke-Jr> csc`: -salvagewallet does some kind of rewrite - I think it loses metadata
 896 2013-04-22 09:06:25 i2pRelay has joined
 897 2013-04-22 09:06:29 <csc`> will work if its encrypted right
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 899 2013-04-22 09:06:34 <kinlo> mmmz, doesn't gentoo still have 0.6.x?
 900 2013-04-22 09:06:36 <Luke-Jr> I presume
 901 2013-04-22 09:07:01 robbak has joined
 902 2013-04-22 09:07:08 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: for stable, 0.6.3, yes
 903 2013-04-22 09:07:20 <csc`> error
 904 2013-04-22 09:07:35 <csc`> "wallet blah blah blah back this up"
 905 2013-04-22 09:07:36 <kinlo> that's why I don't run bitcoin from package, the maintainers can't keep up
 906 2013-04-22 09:07:54 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: well, 0.6.5 is mainly waiting on you at this point ;)
 907 2013-04-22 09:08:02 <kinlo> :p
 908 2013-04-22 09:08:12 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: also, newer versions are available, just not flagged stable yet
 909 2013-04-22 09:08:19 <Luke-Jr> for policy reasons
 910 2013-04-22 09:08:41 <kinlo> let me prioritize 0.6.5 tonight then
 911 2013-04-22 09:08:47 <kinlo> do you have an rc of that one?
 912 2013-04-22 09:08:47 <csc`> "cannot initialize keypool"
 913 2013-04-22 09:09:04 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: I'll be tagging it right before you're ready to build, just in case of last-minute fixes
 914 2013-04-22 09:09:07 <kinlo> altough I'd like to see 0.8.x stable
 915 2013-04-22 09:09:11 dawei101 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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 917 2013-04-22 09:09:25 <csc`> sigh
 918 2013-04-22 09:09:25 <Luke-Jr> yes, that will hopefully follow soon
 919 2013-04-22 09:09:36 <csc`> now what
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 922 2013-04-22 09:10:57 <csc`> Luke-Jr, nuked the downloaded blockchain and left my old wallet.dat in the directory, complained about 'cannot initialize keypool'
 923 2013-04-22 09:13:19 <sipa> csc`: first of all, that means salvaging worked
 924 2013-04-22 09:13:46 <sipa> but there is a problem with it in combination with encrypted wallets
 925 2013-04-22 09:13:56 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 926 2013-04-22 09:14:11 <csc`> hmm
 927 2013-04-22 09:14:17 <EvilPete> If you don't mind the variance, and have the networking resources, there's no real reason not to run against a local p2pool instance (vs a 3rd party pool), right?
 928 2013-04-22 09:14:29 i2pRelay has joined
 929 2013-04-22 09:14:35 <EvilPete> oh crap, wrong channel
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 931 2013-04-22 09:14:43 <sipa> i would have suggested you to use db4.8_dump wallet.dat | db4.8_load walletnew.dat
 932 2013-04-22 09:14:49 <sipa> before salvage
 933 2013-04-22 09:14:58 <csc`> i have a backup before salvage
 934 2013-04-22 09:15:10 <sipa> ok, run those commands on it
 935 2013-04-22 09:15:18 Diablo-D3 has joined
 936 2013-04-22 09:15:22 <csc`> should i try loading the backup first?
 937 2013-04-22 09:15:26 <csc`> before even salvaging?
 938 2013-04-22 09:15:26 <sipa> put the walletnew.dat in the datadir as wallet.dat
 939 2013-04-22 09:15:35 <sipa> if you haven't, yes
 940 2013-04-22 09:15:37 <csc`> because i think the issue was caused by an update
 941 2013-04-22 09:15:48 <csc`> because i downloaded the newest tarball
 942 2013-04-22 09:15:59 <csc`> and i got the same error that happened on this laptop
 943 2013-04-22 09:16:15 <sipa> you're on 0.8.x now?
 944 2013-04-22 09:16:25 <csc`> yeah
 945 2013-04-22 09:16:30 <csc`> but the laptop was on 8x
 946 2013-04-22 09:16:35 <sipa> ok good
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 948 2013-04-22 09:16:41 <csc`> and it happened at less than 10k blocks from complete sync
 949 2013-04-22 09:17:00 <csc`> the bitcoin-qt client has a memory leak, if im not mistaken
 950 2013-04-22 09:17:06 Phoebus has joined
 951 2013-04-22 09:17:12 <sipa> remove the database subdir in yoir datadir first
 952 2013-04-22 09:17:22 <csc`> i had to frequently restart it to avoid completely locking up the laptop
 953 2013-04-22 09:17:23 <sipa> it's not necessary after a clean shutdown
 954 2013-04-22 09:17:41 <sipa> there is no memory leak, but it's very unefficient with memory
 955 2013-04-22 09:17:47 Sealy has joined
 956 2013-04-22 09:17:49 <sipa> 0.8.2 fixes that largely
 957 2013-04-22 09:17:57 <sipa> (not yet released)
 958 2013-04-22 09:18:27 <csc`> lol
 959 2013-04-22 09:18:30 <csc`> wallet wasn't corrupt
 960 2013-04-22 09:18:44 <csc`> i feel like an ass now for wasting time with questions here :(
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 962 2013-04-22 09:19:12 <sipa> well if anything there are several problems with the wallet and how data us recovered from it
 963 2013-04-22 09:19:56 <sipa> that's why we want to get rid of bdb wallets in the first olace... they are the cause of so many apparent corruptions and ibcompatibilities
 964 2013-04-22 09:20:07 <csc`> yeah
 965 2013-04-22 09:20:16 <csc`> its why i said fsck this and started using the android tablet
 966 2013-04-22 09:20:21 <csc`> :(
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 968 2013-04-22 09:21:17 <sipa> latest versions of bitcoin wallet for android are pretty good from an end users' perspectuve
 969 2013-04-22 09:21:41 <csc`> yeah i quite like it
 970 2013-04-22 09:21:52 <csc`> plus it offers a more secure storage medium
 971 2013-04-22 09:21:58 <csc`> as the tablet i have is mostly in airplane mode.
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 973 2013-04-22 09:22:18 <csc`> a recent update broke qrcode scanning though
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 977 2013-04-22 09:25:19 <Qcumber> Can I use bitcoind.exe (that comes installed with the latest Bitcoin-Qt on Windows) to send a raw transaction to the network? And if yes, how exactly? I can't figure it out :(
 978 2013-04-22 09:25:32 <csc`> should be able to
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 980 2013-04-22 09:25:42 <csc`> but im not certain
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 982 2013-04-22 09:25:48 <Qcumber> yeah, I know it should be possible somehow, but I can't figure out how
 983 2013-04-22 09:25:58 <csc`> have to run it via cmd prompt
 984 2013-04-22 09:26:05 <Qcumber> I already have the raw TX data
 985 2013-04-22 09:26:08 <csc`> but im unfamiliar with interacting with the windows service
 986 2013-04-22 09:26:17 <lianj> Qcumber: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Raw_Transactions#sendrawtransaction_.3Chex_string.3E
 987 2013-04-22 09:26:18 <Qcumber> is it windows-specific?
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 990 2013-04-22 09:26:36 <csc`> lol
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 992 2013-04-22 09:27:04 <Qcumber> lianj: thx, looking
 993 2013-04-22 09:27:05 <csc`> welcome back
 994 2013-04-22 09:27:05 <sipa> Qcumber: use the debug console
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 996 2013-04-22 09:27:12 <sipa> no need to run bitcoind
 997 2013-04-22 09:27:13 <Qcumber> yeah I clicked the link and it took me out of web irc :)
 998 2013-04-22 09:27:21 <Qcumber> what debug console?
 999 2013-04-22 09:27:27 <sipa> in bitcoin-qt
1000 2013-04-22 09:27:27 <csc`> click help
1001 2013-04-22 09:27:30 <Qcumber> Note that I'm not running Bitcoin-Qt or anything
1002 2013-04-22 09:27:31 <Qcumber> oh
1003 2013-04-22 09:27:42 <sipa> then what are you running?
1004 2013-04-22 09:27:45 <Qcumber> normally I send raw tx data via blockchain.info/pushtx but I'd like to have an alternative
1005 2013-04-22 09:27:48 <kadoban> Qcumber: then it's even easier, bitcoind?
1006 2013-04-22 09:28:01 <sipa> yes just run bitcoind in that case
1007 2013-04-22 09:28:05 <Qcumber> sipa: nothing, I got addresses + privkeys in a dedicated ubuntu live environment
1008 2013-04-22 09:28:12 <Qcumber> + a local javascript to create transactions
1009 2013-04-22 09:28:31 <sipa> that's kinda hardcore
1010 2013-04-22 09:28:33 <csc`> on a side note im very tempted to develop a wallet for webos
1011 2013-04-22 09:28:42 <Scrat> there's a python script that will connect to an IP from the dns seed and push the transaction
1012 2013-04-22 09:29:05 <kadoban> Scrat: is there? that sounds kinda cool
1013 2013-04-22 09:29:12 <Scrat> trying to find it
1014 2013-04-22 09:29:21 <Qcumber> scrat: sounds good
1015 2013-04-22 09:29:40 <csc`> so curious
1016 2013-04-22 09:29:51 <csc`> how come the litecoin-qt wallet supports mining but the bitcoin-qt wallet does not?
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1018 2013-04-22 09:30:07 <Qcumber> btw, lianj: the 'sendrawtransaction' command in bitcoind in the link you mentioned, seems to do the trick,
1019 2013-04-22 09:30:08 <lianj> yea, thats pretty easy. nice about sendrawtransaction is that it validates your tx again
1020 2013-04-22 09:30:13 <Qcumber> but I have no clue how/where to execute that, excatly?
1021 2013-04-22 09:30:23 <Qcumber> do I just specify that on the command line? or do I connect first, or what?
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1023 2013-04-22 09:30:56 <sipa> csc`: it does, but it is hidden from the GUI as it is pointless
1024 2013-04-22 09:31:12 <csc`> i know it *does*, was just curious as to why it was hidden
1025 2013-04-22 09:31:13 <lianj> bitcoind.exe must be running. and then run bitcoind.exe sendrawtransaction <hey> on the command line or use some rpc client to send that command
1026 2013-04-22 09:31:19 <Luke-Jr> csc`: mining is not within the scope of what Bitcoin-Qt should do
1027 2013-04-22 09:31:29 <csc`> offtopic but is litecoin mining with the wallet pointless also?
1028 2013-04-22 09:31:38 <Luke-Jr> csc`: wrong channel
1029 2013-04-22 09:31:42 <Qcumber> uhm
1030 2013-04-22 09:31:50 <Qcumber> so I run bitcoind.exe twice? or..?
1031 2013-04-22 09:32:00 <csc`> yes
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1033 2013-04-22 09:32:10 <sipa> csc`: because people were complaining "i've been mining for months, and my balance is still 0!!!#&@%£@"
1034 2013-04-22 09:32:11 <Luke-Jr> Qcumber: it's a RPC server, not a CLI client
1035 2013-04-22 09:32:20 <csc`> sipa, lol
1036 2013-04-22 09:32:20 <Qcumber> does bitcoind.exe require the entire blockchain to be downloaded and stored locally?
1037 2013-04-22 09:32:28 <lianj> Qcumber: yes
1038 2013-04-22 09:32:29 <sipa> Qcumber: yes
1039 2013-04-22 09:32:41 <Qcumber> Luke-Jr: ok.. I vaguely know what RPC is, can you recommend a good client?
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1041 2013-04-22 09:32:58 <sipa> Qcumber: for what you need, bitcoind is good enough
1042 2013-04-22 09:33:09 <Qcumber> ok
1043 2013-04-22 09:33:24 <sipa> bitcoind is both the rpc server (when run without arguments) and the rpc client (when a command is given)
1044 2013-04-22 09:33:30 <sipa> so first run bitcoind
1045 2013-04-22 09:33:33 <Qcumber> when I run bitcoind from cmd line now, nothing appears to be happening, but it's running
1046 2013-04-22 09:33:41 <sipa> then run bitcoind getinfo
1047 2013-04-22 09:33:47 <sipa> yes, expected
1048 2013-04-22 09:33:50 <lianj> if you dont want the blockchain syncing stuff, a python or ruby script that connects to a node and pushes out a tx to the network works fine though too
1049 2013-04-22 09:34:10 <Qcumber> bitcoind getinfo says: error: couldn't connect to server
1050 2013-04-22 09:34:30 <Qcumber> lianj: if you know of such a script, that'd be great!
1051 2013-04-22 09:34:40 <lianj> prolly because bitcoind hasn't finished starting yet
1052 2013-04-22 09:34:45 <Qcumber> bitcoind is also fine with me but it'd be even better if I can do it in situations where I don't have the entire block chain at hand
1053 2013-04-22 09:34:54 <csc`> Qcumber, store it on a usb key
1054 2013-04-22 09:34:54 <Qcumber> lianj: yeah possible, it's been 2-3 weeks since I last ran bitcoin-qt
1055 2013-04-22 09:35:05 <csc`> Qcumber, thats what i eventually want to do, tbh
1056 2013-04-22 09:35:19 <lianj> Qcumber: must it be on windows?
1057 2013-04-22 09:35:22 <Qcumber> what, storing the block chain on usb key? or your wallet (whatever implementation)
1058 2013-04-22 09:35:26 <Qcumber> lianj: preferably, yes
1059 2013-04-22 09:35:32 <Qcumber> as Windows is my main OS
1060 2013-04-22 09:35:44 <Qcumber> I'm only booting to dedicated Ubuntu to get coins out of my savings
1061 2013-04-22 09:35:50 <csc`> Qcumber, storing bitcoin-qt on a usb key, including crossplatform versions and the entire blockchain
1062 2013-04-22 09:35:52 <Qcumber> typically less than once a week
1063 2013-04-22 09:36:09 <csc`> but this will become feasable once i get a key larger than 8gb
1064 2013-04-22 09:36:14 <csc`> as the blockchain is nearing that
1065 2013-04-22 09:36:30 <sipa> or when we imolement blockchain pruning :)
1066 2013-04-22 09:36:35 <sipa> implement
1067 2013-04-22 09:36:37 <lianj> Qcumber: install python or ruby + the scripts dependiencies is prolly annoying on windows
1068 2013-04-22 09:36:41 <csc`> sipa, that would be the shiz
1069 2013-04-22 09:36:52 <Qcumber> lianj: hmm I see
1070 2013-04-22 09:36:57 <csc`> sipa, i wasted over 6gb of bandwith over a tether
1071 2013-04-22 09:37:02 <csc`> sipa, only to be told "DELETE"
1072 2013-04-22 09:37:07 <csc`> :|
1073 2013-04-22 09:37:10 <Qcumber> lianj: well I could install python + the actual script on some server, and just access that from wherever I want to send raw tx
1074 2013-04-22 09:37:20 <sipa> csc`: in 0.8 youcan reset the chain without redownloading it
1075 2013-04-22 09:37:20 <lianj> Qcumber: sure
1076 2013-04-22 09:37:28 <sipa> csc`: with -reindex
1077 2013-04-22 09:37:33 <csc`> too late now =\
1078 2013-04-22 09:37:40 <csc`> already nuked it because it was a waste of space
1079 2013-04-22 09:37:56 <csc`> i was frantically hunting down unneeded big stuff and deleting it as the blockchain was downloading
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1083 2013-04-22 09:38:15 <Qcumber> btw, "bitcoind getinfo" now gives me some json data
1084 2013-04-22 09:38:32 <sipa> Qcumber: sounds good
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1086 2013-04-22 09:38:36 <csc`> curious though why doesn't the android client require the entire blockchain, sipa?
1087 2013-04-22 09:38:51 <sipa> csc`: because it doesn't verify the blockchain
1088 2013-04-22 09:38:55 <Qcumber> if I would now run "bitcoind sendrawtransaction 012345etc" it should send my tx ??
1089 2013-04-22 09:39:02 <csc`> sipa, sounds...bad?
1090 2013-04-22 09:39:05 <sipa> it's a lightweight implementation
1091 2013-04-22 09:39:18 <sipa> no, bitcoin was designed to support such lightweight systems
1092 2013-04-22 09:39:32 <sipa> butyou still need fully validating nodes on the network
1093 2013-04-22 09:39:50 <csc`> which is what mining does, right?
1094 2013-04-22 09:39:53 <csc`> or somewhat
1095 2013-04-22 09:40:05 <sipa> mining is even more than that
1096 2013-04-22 09:40:09 <kadoban> Qcumber: yes
1097 2013-04-22 09:40:16 <csc`> well yes
1098 2013-04-22 09:40:25 <csc`> mining is also the process of encoding transactions to blocks
1099 2013-04-22 09:40:38 <csc`> or something like that
1100 2013-04-22 09:40:49 <csc`> im not particularly an expert on bitcoins, although i learn something new daily
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1102 2013-04-22 09:40:59 <sipa> as a fully verifying node, you verify everything
1103 2013-04-22 09:41:03 <Qcumber> kadoban: ok great, thx
1104 2013-04-22 09:41:19 <sipa> by doing so, you knkw that no one, not even miners, are cheating
1105 2013-04-22 09:41:42 <sipa> lightweight clients work by only verifying the chain and not the transactions in it
1106 2013-04-22 09:41:42 <Qcumber> another question, does anyone know of a script (javascript preferably) that can create transactions with more than one input or ouput address?
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1109 2013-04-22 09:42:19 <Qcumber> I've got a script here that can sign transactions going from one address, to one other address (with custom amount and fee, and the change automatically going back to input address) but I'd be nice to customize transactions more
1110 2013-04-22 09:42:28 <csc`> ...because the nodes already verify everything it only needs to verify the chain
1111 2013-04-22 09:42:29 <csc`> right?
1112 2013-04-22 09:42:38 <csc`> and thats what makes it still secure?
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1114 2013-04-22 09:43:20 <Qcumber> csc: I'd say everybody verifies it automatically? both miners (before including a tx in a block) as well as nodes (before distributing a tx on the network further)
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1209 2013-04-22 11:03:46 <KingCoin> any programmers here? im looking for people in toronto who are interested in starting an exchange. have potential investors, lawyers etc. please PM me
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1299 2013-04-22 12:37:07 <volante> is there a way to get bitcoin-qt to generate a new wallet.dat but passphrase it immediately?  so that the unpassphrased version never gets written to disk?
1300 2013-04-22 12:37:28 <sipa> volante: when you encrypt your wallet, the key pool is flushed
1301 2013-04-22 12:37:40 <sipa> volante: so any new keys it will give out after that, will never have touched disk
1302 2013-04-22 12:37:45 <sipa> in unencrypted form
1303 2013-04-22 12:37:48 <volante> oh, nice
1304 2013-04-22 12:38:28 <volante> to if i make a brand new wallet, passphrase it immediately, and then make some addresses, i'm safe from having my priv keys unencrypted on disk?
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1306 2013-04-22 12:38:53 <kinlo> yes
1307 2013-04-22 12:39:03 <volante> thanks
1308 2013-04-22 12:39:36 <volante> oh and what method of encryption does the passphrase use?
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1311 2013-04-22 12:42:24 <Scrat> volante: aes-256-cbc https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_encryption
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1367 2013-04-22 13:17:09 <jgm> Thought I understood simple transactions, but obviously not.  Regarding scriptSig, wiki states "The public key belongs to the redeemer of the output transaction", but what is this value if there are multiple outputs to different addresses?
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1369 2013-04-22 13:19:01 <kadoban> jgm: it's speaking there of one output i assume
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1371 2013-04-22 13:21:27 <jgm> Really?  Single output transactions are close to a corner case, seems like a strange thing to give as the only example.  Think it might be time to go back in to the code to see what's going on here
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1375 2013-04-22 13:22:56 <kadoban> jgm: each output of a transaction functions that way, they each have a separate associated redeemer/public key, if that's any clearer
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1378 2013-04-22 13:23:13 <kadoban> but ya, if you're comfortable in the code that'll probably give you a better answer than i can explain
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1383 2013-04-22 13:25:57 <jaakkos> jgm: a transaction contains a list of inputs, and a list of outputs, and these lists are totally separate (except their sum in BTC is the same minus fee).
1384 2013-04-22 13:26:23 <jaakkos> jgm: now, each input in the input list, contains a reference to a previously unredeemed output, and the signature (and pubkey) required to redeem that output
1385 2013-04-22 13:26:48 <jgm> jaakkos: explain the second bit.  Specifically, which pubkey?
1386 2013-04-22 13:27:22 <jaakkos> jgm: as you probably know, an output specifies the bitcoin address whose owner is allowed to redeem that output
1387 2013-04-22 13:28:11 <jaakkos> jgm: so to redeem (use as an input) that output, the redeemer needs to prove that do, in fact, "possess" that address, so they create a signature to do so
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1389 2013-04-22 13:28:53 <jaakkos> jgm: however, because a bitcoin address is a hash of a public key instead of the public key, the redeemer must give the public key as well as the signature, because the public key is potentially unknown to the world otherwise, and the signature could not be verified if that was the case.
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1391 2013-04-22 13:30:01 <jaakkos> "prove that do" -> "prove that they do"
1392 2013-04-22 13:30:10 <jgm> Okay, so the pubkey in the scriptSig is the pubkey of the address to which the input was sent?
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1394 2013-04-22 13:30:33 <sipa> jgm: every transaction input refers to exactly one previous transaction's output
1395 2013-04-22 13:30:42 <sipa> jgm: and it needs a pubkey/signature that matches
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1397 2013-04-22 13:31:07 <jaakkos> jgm: to which the output was sent
1398 2013-04-22 13:31:32 <jaakkos> jgm: though input ~= output, you probably meant the same
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1400 2013-04-22 13:32:14 <jgm> Yeah, mixing output of previous tx with input of current but I think I get it now.  Now to code it and see if it gives me the correct numbers.  Thanks!
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1434 2013-04-22 13:51:01 <shamoon> Luke-Jr: i heard something about wallet.dat no longer being used in the future?
1435 2013-04-22 13:52:11 <sipa> yes
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1439 2013-04-22 13:52:57 <shamoon> sipa: which release is that for and wht's the replacement?
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1441 2013-04-22 13:53:37 <sipa> shamoon: replacement will likely be a custom append-only binary format, with built-in checksums
1442 2013-04-22 13:53:47 <sipa> shamoon: not before 0.9
1443 2013-04-22 13:53:56 <shamoon> backwards compatibility?
1444 2013-04-22 13:54:53 <sivu> i read 'backstab compatibility'
1445 2013-04-22 13:54:59 <sivu> maybe i need to get away from work
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1447 2013-04-22 13:55:22 <sipa> obviously not, but there'll be conversion code (either built-in, or a separate tool)
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1454 2013-04-22 14:01:34 <csc`> how would i strip the encryption from this wallet?
1455 2013-04-22 14:01:42 <csc`> the process keeps dying presumably due to my provider
1456 2013-04-22 14:01:52 <csc`> and it wont sync quick enough
1457 2013-04-22 14:02:00 <sipa> what does encryption have to do with your provider?
1458 2013-04-22 14:02:06 <csc`> it got down to 2.5k blocks and every time it restarts it goes back up to 8
1459 2013-04-22 14:02:11 <alaricsp> sipa: Does it need to be binary? What exactly is in there? A format with one line per key that sticks to ASCII and uses newline as a key separate would be easy to "merge wallets" and the like - particularly with version control systems.
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1461 2013-04-22 14:02:43 <csc`> sipa, it has to do with syncing the damn wallet so i can send the funds out of it
1462 2013-04-22 14:02:44 <sipa> alaricsp: it contains keys, transactions, crypto information, some metadata, pointer to a best block, ...
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1465 2013-04-22 14:02:53 <sipa> csc`: wallet and blockchain are completely independent in 0.8
1466 2013-04-22 14:02:56 <csc`> but it keeps saying "Killed" every time it gets close
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1468 2013-04-22 14:03:09 <alaricsp> Hrm, transactions are a bit bulkier. DOes it do something like cache unspent transations for each address in the wallet?
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1470 2013-04-22 14:03:26 <sipa> alaricsp: no, but getting keys and transactions in it out of sync is dangerous
1471 2013-04-22 14:03:32 * alaricsp nods
1472 2013-04-22 14:03:34 <csc`> sipa, i'd like to strip the wallet and import it into blockchain.info's
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1476 2013-04-22 14:03:47 <jgm> Any utils out there to convert a public key as a hexstring to a bitcoin address?
1477 2013-04-22 14:03:54 <sipa> csc`: removing encryption isn't supported
1478 2013-04-22 14:04:08 <csc`> thats pretty crappy
1479 2013-04-22 14:04:11 <csc`> =|
1480 2013-04-22 14:04:40 <alaricsp> sipa: I still have this dream of being able to put wallet.dat into a version control system and being able to merge changes :-)
1481 2013-04-22 14:04:52 <csc`> so how the hell would i extract the data from it to import it into blockchain?
1482 2013-04-22 14:04:58 <csc`> because pywallet didnt work
1483 2013-04-22 14:05:03 <csc`> or i did it wrong
1484 2013-04-22 14:05:10 <kadoban> jgm: http://gobittest.appspot.com/Address
1485 2013-04-22 14:06:02 <jgm> kadoban: didn't like it (think mine is compressed)
1486 2013-04-22 14:06:46 <kadoban> jgm: hmm, really? you typed it into box 2? i thought that tool always worked, guess i'm not 100% clear on the different pubkey types tho
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1488 2013-04-22 14:06:49 <sipa> csc`: dumpprivkey can get you the private key for an address
1489 2013-04-22 14:07:07 <sipa> csc`: also, doesn't b.i support importing encrypted wallets?
1490 2013-04-22 14:07:14 <csc`> no
1491 2013-04-22 14:07:18 <csc`> it requires you to use pywallet
1492 2013-04-22 14:07:25 <kadoban> jgm: err, box 1, sorry
1493 2013-04-22 14:07:29 <csc`> which what pywallet gave me didn't give me the proper json
1494 2013-04-22 14:07:34 <csc`> and blockchain.info rejected it
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1507 2013-04-22 14:12:43 <kadoban> jgm: oh, are you sure what you're trying to work with isn't the hash of a public key?
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1509 2013-04-22 14:13:33 <jgm> Nope trying to work from the key to the hash
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1513 2013-04-22 14:14:04 <jgm> To confirm some code that I have (which isn't working out too well right now)
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1523 2013-04-22 14:20:22 <jgm> kadoban: not sure I trust that webpage, just clicking on 'random' causes a server error
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1550 2013-04-22 14:33:29 <TD> sipa: you there?
1551 2013-04-22 14:34:04 <TD> sipa: how comes P2SH scriptPubKeys don't use OP_PUSHDATA1? what is this opcode 0x14? some previously ignored opcode that was redefined for p2sh?
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1553 2013-04-22 14:34:51 <etotheipi_> TD: that's "20"
1554 2013-04-22 14:34:57 <etotheipi_> it's an implicit PUSHDATA(0)
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1556 2013-04-22 14:35:19 <etotheipi_> if the number is below ... 81? ... it's an implied pushdata
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1558 2013-04-22 14:36:10 <TD> yeah, i know .... oh, i see the issue
1559 2013-04-22 14:36:13 <etotheipi_> TD:  values between 1 and 75
1560 2013-04-22 14:36:50 <TD> i'm getting confused because i changed the implementation if isPushToScriptHash() and the script_valid.json tests are expecting the code to match on the serialized byte form
1561 2013-04-22 14:36:52 <TD> not on the logical form
1562 2013-04-22 14:37:05 <TD> that's an irritating hack
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1569 2013-04-22 14:43:45 <TD> well, worse, it's actually a part of the protocol
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1572 2013-04-22 14:44:01 <TD> you can have two scriptPubKeys that appear to be the same if printed out as opcodes + hex encoded chunks but are actually different
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1580 2013-04-22 14:46:17 <etotheipi_> BlueMatt: you did most of the bloom filter stuff, right?
1581 2013-04-22 14:46:55 <BlueMatt> sipa did the merkle tree encoding stuff, but I did most of the rest
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1583 2013-04-22 14:47:14 <etotheipi_> BlueMatt: okay... I'll ask sipa too, then
1584 2013-04-22 14:47:20 <etotheipi_> but can you just glace at this:  http://pastebin.com/0SPxcnq1
1585 2013-04-22 14:47:34 <etotheipi_> I have been digging into the CPartialMerkleTree stuff
1586 2013-04-22 14:47:47 <etotheipi_> and I still haven't quite figured it out
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1589 2013-04-22 14:49:59 <etotheipi_> BlueMatt: gah, scratch that... I missed the sibling nodes needed at each level
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1592 2013-04-22 14:50:33 <etotheipi_> but I still would like to know if that serialization is correct:  you just have a naked list of TxIDs/NodeIDs and the vBits tells you which nodes they correspond to
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1603 2013-04-22 14:57:47 <petertodd> TD: double check but IIRC the script stuff expects the serialized PUSHDATA form used to be the 'minimum' possible in a few places, so PUSHDATA1 wouldn't be a substitute for the 1-75 implicit pushdata forms
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1608 2013-04-22 15:00:21 <TD> petertodd: the p2sh matching certainly does expect that. fortunately the tests exercise it.
1609 2013-04-22 15:00:47 <petertodd> TD:
1610 2013-04-22 15:01:16 <petertodd> TD: yup, and I seem to recall some of the stuff reserializing, so tx hashes won't match up unless you use the minimum encoding, same thing with the varints
1611 2013-04-22 15:01:36 <petertodd> TD: but it's been a  few weeks since I last was working on python-bitcoinlib...
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1619 2013-04-22 15:06:22 <TD> petertodd: hmmm. from reading the c++, i am not sure it will reserialize actually. BlueMatt what do you think?
1620 2013-04-22 15:06:22 <sipa> etotheipi_: there's not really a direct correspondance between the bits and the hashes
1621 2013-04-22 15:06:39 <sipa> TD: scripts are not reserialized, afaik
1622 2013-04-22 15:06:47 <sipa> TD: they are treated as byte arrays
1623 2013-04-22 15:06:48 <etotheipi_> sipa: this is what I'm trying to figure out
1624 2013-04-22 15:07:01 <etotheipi_> is the vHash just a naked list of 32-byte hashes?
1625 2013-04-22 15:07:02 <sipa> etotheipi_: so, you do a depth-first search over the merkle tree
1626 2013-04-22 15:07:23 <sipa> etotheipi_: yes, but what they correspond to you can only find out by traversing the tree with the bits
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1628 2013-04-22 15:07:24 <TD> indeed
1629 2013-04-22 15:07:32 <BlueMatt> TD: been a long time since I looked at that code, give me a few minutes to read it again
1630 2013-04-22 15:07:34 <sipa> etotheipi_: so you start at the top node
1631 2013-04-22 15:07:55 <sipa> etotheipi_: and you wonder "is this node the parent of _any_ included leaf (txid)"
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1633 2013-04-22 15:08:01 <answer> hi i have a question : if somone use valid transaction key to send it to another nodes what happean?
1634 2013-04-22 15:08:02 <petertodd> sipa: varints *are* reserialized for sure though right? or am I just dreaming stuff...
1635 2013-04-22 15:08:06 <etotheipi_> sipa: oh... you just do the same depth-first search, and "eat" a bit for each one, and if that bit is "1" you eat the next hash in the list?
1636 2013-04-22 15:08:10 <TD> hmmm. grr. that means i have to undo some of my refactoring. it's not safe to round-trip through a parsed form.
1637 2013-04-22 15:08:12 <sipa> petertodd: they are
1638 2013-04-22 15:08:34 <sipa> etotheipi_: that true/false is pushed onto the bits array
1639 2013-04-22 15:08:56 <sipa> etotheipi_: if it's a one, OR its a leaf node, you push its hash onto the hashes list
1640 2013-04-22 15:09:10 <sipa> etotheipi_: if it is neither, you decend into its children, depth-first
1641 2013-04-22 15:09:18 <BlueMatt> TD: yes, scripts are not reserialized ever, I believe
1642 2013-04-22 15:09:28 <sipa> etotheipi_: and when decoding you do the same
1643 2013-04-22 15:10:21 <etotheipi_> sipa: so the hashes (and bits) are in depth-first-search order
1644 2013-04-22 15:10:29 <sipa> yes
1645 2013-04-22 15:10:32 <etotheipi_> sipa: and only in clude the branches that are traversed
1646 2013-04-22 15:10:36 <sipa> indeed
1647 2013-04-22 15:10:41 <etotheipi_> sipa: perfect
1648 2013-04-22 15:10:47 <etotheipi_> thanks
1649 2013-04-22 15:10:47 <sipa> it's an almost-redudancy-free encoding :)
1650 2013-04-22 15:10:53 <petertodd> BlueMatt: remind me to write an app to stenographically hide data in which PUSHDATA is used for OP_CHECKMULTISIG... that'd be what, 4*3=12 bits per output :P
1651 2013-04-22 15:11:29 <petertodd> BlueMatt: oh, no, actually 2*3=6 bits per output, lovely!
1652 2013-04-22 15:11:34 <etotheipi_> sipa: is there a unit test for this just to make sure I get it right?
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1654 2013-04-22 15:11:54 <sipa> etotheipi_: afaik, i wrote one, yes
1655 2013-04-22 15:12:10 <answer>  if somone use valid transaction key to send it to another nodes what happean?
1656 2013-04-22 15:12:10 <sipa> pmt_tests.cpp
1657 2013-04-22 15:12:27 <sipa> what is a 'valid transaction key' ?
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1659 2013-04-22 15:13:40 <answer> sipa: a sign key of transaction
1660 2013-04-22 15:14:39 <sipa> so your question is "what happens when someone creates a valid transaction, and broadcasts it?"
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1663 2013-04-22 15:15:12 <answer> sipa : yes !
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1666 2013-04-22 15:16:15 <BlueMatt> petertodd: heh, have fun with that one...though there is a strange case or two with the remove-sig-from-tx-being-signed code where it wont actually remove the sig unless it has the "correct" pushdata used
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1668 2013-04-22 15:16:40 <BlueMatt> (TODO: add test case to data-driven script cases that checks that, because my god is that a fun one to catch lazy implementors)
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1670 2013-04-22 15:17:35 <TD> BlueMatt: hah, indeed
1671 2013-04-22 15:17:48 <TD> my god. this thing really cannot be safely reimplemented can it.
1672 2013-04-22 15:17:57 <BlueMatt> heh, no
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1676 2013-04-22 15:18:35 <etotheipi_> sipa: perfect!  Thanks so much
1677 2013-04-22 15:20:01 <sipa> etotheipi_: it's not a data-driven test though, just an internal consistency test
1678 2013-04-22 15:20:33 <etotheipi_> sipa: that's fine
1679 2013-04-22 15:21:02 <etotheipi_> sipa: I assume it will help me determine if I've done the searching and vector construction correctly, though
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1687 2013-04-22 15:24:07 <petertodd> BlueMatt: One of these days 'Reimplement Bitcoin Core' is going to be a standard apprenticship test for programmers attempting to gain membership in the priesthood...
1688 2013-04-22 15:24:35 endriuska has joined
1689 2013-04-22 15:24:59 <BlueMatt> heh, yea...
1690 2013-04-22 15:25:47 <petertodd> More seriously, even if we manage to have enough re-implementations that failure of any one re-implementation isn't disasterous, remember that an attacker could find multiple failures and cause them all to fail at once... just something I've been thinking about.
1691 2013-04-22 15:26:02 <TD> if they all fail simultaneously then that's ok :)
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1693 2013-04-22 15:26:15 <petertodd> TD: emphasis on *all* :P
1694 2013-04-22 15:27:15 <petertodd> There probably isn't any good way to tell if, say, 90% of the hashing power just dropped out other than having miners sign block headers and distribute them via a totally different mechanism. Maybe twitter. :P
1695 2013-04-22 15:28:05 <TD> i wonder if tweeting block hashes looks to twitter like a botnet control account
1696 2013-04-22 15:28:09 <sipa> answer: no offence, bit that's like a history exam question: "The Middle Ages. Elaborate."
1697 2013-04-22 15:28:47 <jgm> Anyone know of an alternative to http://gobittest.appspot.com/Address ?  Trying to get from Base58-encoded private key to Base58-encoded public key and my code is tripping up somewhere...
1698 2013-04-22 15:28:54 <petertodd> TD: good point, wanna run a blockheadertwit instance and find out?
1699 2013-04-22 15:30:11 wallet421 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1700 2013-04-22 15:30:45 <TD> sipa: haha
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1704 2013-04-22 15:33:10 <TD> BlueMatt: want to add the recent script refactorings to your to-review list? :)
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1706 2013-04-22 15:33:52 <TD> by the way, we have a new multibit release
1707 2013-04-22 15:34:08 <TD> it's got feature parity (except message signing, i think) with bitcoin-qt and should be a lot faster/more stable than previous releases
1708 2013-04-22 15:34:26 <TD> also, it's signed for apple's Gatekeeper now, and has update alerts
1709 2013-04-22 15:34:43 <TD> i'm going to beat it up a bit more and then maybe open a discussion on getting it onto the website choose-your-wallet page
1710 2013-04-22 15:34:53 <etotheipi_> TD: did you have to get a specific Apple cert for Gatekeeper?  I'm under the impression I can use my existing Class2 cert for that...?
1711 2013-04-22 15:35:04 <answer> sipa: you must to proof it
1712 2013-04-22 15:35:07 <TD> gatekeeper requires apple issued certificates. i didn't get one, jim burton did
1713 2013-04-22 15:35:19 <BlueMatt> TD: will-do, sorry Im a bit behind on stuff with finals/last week/moving stuff...Ill get a ton of work done on the plane though
1714 2013-04-22 15:35:25 <TD> yeah, there's no hurry
1715 2013-04-22 15:35:30 <TD> the script unit tests are really really good
1716 2013-04-22 15:35:35 <TD> so i'm pretty sure the refactorings are ok
1717 2013-04-22 15:35:39 <TD> (ok now, i should say)
1718 2013-04-22 15:35:40 <sipa> answer: i'm just saying that that question is too broad to answer here
1719 2013-04-22 15:35:54 <BlueMatt> is there one to test the above-mentioned edge case, I dont remember if one was written for that or not?
1720 2013-04-22 15:36:19 <TD> i'm not sure. good question. i made it not round-trip serialized forms now so i'd hope that fixes it
1721 2013-04-22 15:36:21 <answer> sipa: ok ! thank
1722 2013-04-22 15:36:25 <TD> but yeah there should be a test for that
1723 2013-04-22 15:36:41 <sipa> TD: is there any place where the export format of bitcoinj/androidwallet is discussed / to be discussed?
1724 2013-04-22 15:36:55 <TD> export format?
1725 2013-04-22 15:37:06 <TD> goonie implemented his own key export format for the android app
1726 2013-04-22 15:37:13 <sipa> ok
1727 2013-04-22 15:37:22 <TD> bitcoinj doesn't have one. it just has its wallet format and then it implements the dumpprivkey format
1728 2013-04-22 15:37:39 <sipa> because i want something similar for bitcoin-qt, but it'll need extensions
1729 2013-04-22 15:37:45 <TD> goonies format is designed to be decryptable with openssl. i think it can probably bite the dust now we implemented wallet encryption properly.
1730 2013-04-22 15:38:00 <TD> what do you want to export? just the keys?
1731 2013-04-22 15:38:22 <sipa> a bit more than that
1732 2013-04-22 15:38:29 <TD> i'd think we'd want to do hd wallets first, as that will presumably have an impact on everything key-related.
1733 2013-04-22 15:38:55 <sipa> it'd just mean some extra tag on certain keys, containing node info, chain code, ...
1734 2013-04-22 15:39:07 <sipa> but yes
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1736 2013-04-22 15:39:39 <TD> i'm hoping to start review+merge of matijas HD wallet code into bitcoinj in the next few weeks
1737 2013-04-22 15:39:53 <TD> once that's done, well, bitcoinj wallet format is just a protocol buffer. and bitcoin qt is getting a dependency on that already for the payment protocol.
1738 2013-04-22 15:39:55 <sipa> there's just a bunch of wallet changes that people seem to agree on (multiwallet, watch-only, hd wallets, move away from BDB, ...), and import/export seems to belong in there as well
1739 2013-04-22 15:39:59 <TD> so at that point, i guess it'd be possible to reuse it.
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1741 2013-04-22 15:40:26 <TD> the advantage - easy to read from almost any kind of language or environment. the disadvantage - you have to parse the whole file into memory.
1742 2013-04-22 15:40:29 <sipa> i'll have a look at the protobug format
1743 2013-04-22 15:40:37 <sipa> buf!
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1746 2013-04-22 15:40:48 <TD> also i suspect at least on android we'll be generating the priv/pubkeys and storing them in the wallet even if they're derived from a root key, just to keep things fast.
1747 2013-04-22 15:40:59 <TD> but yeah it needs some discussion and thought.
1748 2013-04-22 15:41:10 <sipa> but i don't like that idea... you'll want to experiment with what wallets exactly store, and i'm not sure different implementations will agree
1749 2013-04-22 15:41:20 <sipa> i much more prefer a common import/export format to a common storage format
1750 2013-04-22 15:41:49 answer has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1751 2013-04-22 15:42:03 <sipa> but i'll have a look, perhaps it matches close enough
1752 2013-04-22 15:42:09 <TD> well, i was thinking that a wallet that only contains labelled keys and no transactions is basically a key import/export format
1753 2013-04-22 15:42:20 <sipa> tes, indeed
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1755 2013-04-22 15:42:47 <TD> https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/source/browse/core/src/bitcoin.proto
1756 2013-04-22 15:42:54 <sipa> thanks
1757 2013-04-22 15:43:09 <petertodd> well remember key import/export is valuable: you might not actually want to use a given set of keys with just Bitcoin. A sane usage scenario would be to use the same deterministic roots with multiple alt-coins for instance.
1758 2013-04-22 15:43:29 <TD> i'm going to make a lot of changes to the way transactions are stored in future, but the key stuff should be somewhat stable.
1759 2013-04-22 15:44:13 <lianj> no compressed vs uncompressed pubkey/addres?
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1762 2013-04-22 15:44:36 <TD> the public key is stored too. but yeah we could add that for the case where you don't want to store pubkeys on disk.
1763 2013-04-22 15:44:39 <sipa> TD: i think it will be hard to make bitcoind/qt use that proto format
1764 2013-04-22 15:45:06 <gavinandresen> wumpus: What it the best way to handle errors that happen during payment protocol negotiations?
1765 2013-04-22 15:45:15 <TD> sipa: how so?
1766 2013-04-22 15:45:31 <gavinandresen> wumpus:  qDebug << or printf() to debug.log ?   And pop up a message box for errors the user should know about?
1767 2013-04-22 15:45:41 <sipa> TD: it seems tied to an existing imported chain, for example
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1770 2013-04-22 15:45:59 <sipa> TD: just one thing i pick out now, it stores a height in transactions
1771 2013-04-22 15:46:12 <TD> sipa: yeah, ignore the transactions stuff. i am not suggesting this as a replacement for the entire wallet format.
1772 2013-04-22 15:46:18 <sipa> oh ok
1773 2013-04-22 15:46:20 <TD> sipa:  just as a way to store labelled possibly encrypted keys
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1776 2013-04-22 15:46:38 <TD> sipa: like i said, i want to change the tx representations a lot. in particular to avoid storing data that isn't necessary for creating spends
1777 2013-04-22 15:46:39 <sipa> TD: for that i prefer something human-readable
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1779 2013-04-22 15:46:45 <TD> as otherwise you can get a lot of memory blowup
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1781 2013-04-22 15:46:56 <gavinandresen> TD: I've been thinking redundancy for private keys in the wallet would be a good thing
1782 2013-04-22 15:47:00 <TD> well, encrypted keys are not going to be human readable no matter what you do .... :)
1783 2013-04-22 15:47:13 <sipa> TD: no, but people request fiddling, and they will do so anyway
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1789 2013-04-22 15:47:35 <sipa> TD: much better have a safe import/export thing that lets them, than having them write hacky tools that break wallets
1790 2013-04-22 15:47:37 <gavinandresen> TD: … so a random bit-flipping error doesn't mean you lose them.  Belt-and-suspenders....
1791 2013-04-22 15:47:37 <TD> gavinandresen: multiple copies stored in the same file?
1792 2013-04-22 15:47:41 <gavinandresen> TD: yes
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1795 2013-04-22 15:48:00 <TD> mmm. did we see reports of random bitflips on keys like that?
1796 2013-04-22 15:48:08 i2pRelay has joined
1797 2013-04-22 15:48:15 <TD> multibit makes rolling backups to different files
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1800 2013-04-22 15:48:33 <sipa> TD: that was exactly pretty much the very first thing i worked on in bitcoin... import/export keys to a JSON format, but only the per-key stuff got finished and merged
1801 2013-04-22 15:48:40 <TD> i think it might also re-calculate the pubkeys from the private keys and verify that they match, so if there is a corruption in one or the other it tells you to restore to a recent backup
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1804 2013-04-22 15:48:48 <gmaxwell> We've seen bitflips in blockchain data.
1805 2013-04-22 15:48:59 <sipa> TD: i want to finish that, but if there's already an inport/export format being used, i would like to be compatible
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1807 2013-04-22 15:49:21 <TD> sipa: ok. talk to goonie. his format is basically openssl encrypted text files, if i understand correctly.
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1810 2013-04-22 15:49:44 <gavinandresen> checking that private/public key matches is an excellent idea, the disaster scenario with rolling backups is a bitflip that gets propagated forward
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1813 2013-04-22 15:49:45 <TD> i'm not really a fan of textual formats for binary data, especially not json, but whatever. i don't care enough to argue for one or the other.
1814 2013-04-22 15:49:54 <sipa> gavinandresen: we already do that
1815 2013-04-22 15:50:10 <TD> gavinandresen: well yes, if you don't notice, but then you hopefully have old backups for a while back. i don't know how many backups it keeps but there are a bunch.
1816 2013-04-22 15:50:20 <sipa> gavinandresen: since 0.7 afaik
1817 2013-04-22 15:50:24 geb has joined
1818 2013-04-22 15:50:25 <HM2> the premise of textual formats is you can open them in a text editor, but that's only really useful if all the binary is encoded and the thing is pretty-printed
1819 2013-04-22 15:50:31 <gavinandresen> sipa: cool.
1820 2013-04-22 15:50:55 <sipa> gavinandresen: it's why people complain newer versions say their wallet are corrupted when upgrading
1821 2013-04-22 15:50:56 <gavinandresen> Again, when it comes to private keys, I'd err on the side of too much redundancy.
1822 2013-04-22 15:51:11 <sipa> gavinandresen: though it's frequently BDB stuff too
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1825 2013-04-22 15:51:55 <gmaxwell> apparently arch linux has been distributing packages linked against bdb 5.x, so none of those people can run the official binaries.
1826 2013-04-22 15:51:58 <TD> i guess if at some point a log wallet format is designed, that could be somewhat standardised
1827 2013-04-22 15:52:23 * lupine hates on bdb somewhat
1828 2013-04-22 15:52:23 <HM2> gmaxwell: i noticed that
1829 2013-04-22 15:52:36 <TD> brilliant. this reminds me why i so hated the linux packaging system back when i was doing commercial linux dev stuff
1830 2013-04-22 15:52:53 <gavinandresen> sipa: we still have a single point of failure with the master key, yes?  If it gets bit-flipped, you won't be able to tell until you go to decrypt and get told "wrong passphrase"
1831 2013-04-22 15:52:54 <lupine> pish, linux packaging is sane
1832 2013-04-22 15:53:15 <gmaxwell> lupine: Seems not. :P
1833 2013-04-22 15:53:21 <HM2> as opposed to Windows, where there's no packaging? :P
1834 2013-04-22 15:53:25 <sipa> gavinandresen: yeah
1835 2013-04-22 15:53:26 <lupine> the problem is entirely internal to bdb
1836 2013-04-22 15:53:49 <gmaxwell> lupine: its not unreasonable for bdb to change its formats.
1837 2013-04-22 15:54:05 <sipa> gavinandresen: but an append-only checksummed fileformat would be nice... you still risk bitflips of course, but they'll likely be in new records and not old ones, and very very few data in wallets changes
1838 2013-04-22 15:54:13 <lupine> maybe the solution is to have a statically-linked converter
1839 2013-04-22 15:54:14 <HM2> one presumes you can install the different versions alongside one another
1840 2013-04-22 15:54:24 <TD> sipa: unfortunately you have to compact such formats from time to time and if your ram is bad, you can get disasters then
1841 2013-04-22 15:54:29 <lupine> you can with bdb :)
1842 2013-04-22 15:54:32 <sipa> TD: yup
1843 2013-04-22 15:54:34 bitit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1844 2013-04-22 15:54:41 <sipa> TD: from time to time, but not regularly
1845 2013-04-22 15:54:42 <TD> sipa: btw talk to hurstdog inside google if you want to learn about all the amazing ways log formats can go wrong (gmail used to use one)
1846 2013-04-22 15:54:50 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I tried at one point to get them to switch, but I just got yelled at (arch is and shall always be bleeding-edge because that way is just better, and thus we wont change it)
1847 2013-04-22 15:55:07 <sipa> we could do built-in read-solomon of course :D
1848 2013-04-22 15:55:17 <gavinandresen> I'm almost done giving my two cents on wallet re-design…. my only other thought is to plan ahead for multi-device wallets, with the notion "Here is how to get the other keys needed to sign this…"  (probably a per-wallet notion, not per-set-of-keys)
1849 2013-04-22 15:55:18 <TD> reed-solomon
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1852 2013-04-22 15:55:48 <sipa> TD: right
1853 2013-04-22 15:56:00 <gmaxwell> duplication is likely better than an RS code here. :P plus a lot simpler to implement.
1854 2013-04-22 15:56:10 <pjorrit_> but what if the bitflip happened before r-s? :D
1855 2013-04-22 15:56:10 i2pRelay has joined
1856 2013-04-22 15:56:21 <TD> gavinandresen: yeah it's not really clear to me how to integrate something like the trezor yet
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1859 2013-04-22 15:56:27 <TD> jim has said he's going to figure it out for multibit
1860 2013-04-22 15:56:35 <TD> so my plan is just to work on other things and then see what he comes up with
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1866 2013-04-22 16:00:40 <alaricsp> If you're worried about bit flips, the key is to checksum things from end to end
1867 2013-04-22 16:01:17 <alaricsp> There will always be a window for disaster if there's some period before the checksum is computed, or some period after it's checked, as there always will be
1868 2013-04-22 16:01:21 <alaricsp> But you can make it as small as possible.
1869 2013-04-22 16:01:35 <sipa> alaricsp: i plan to
1870 2013-04-22 16:01:45 <sipa> but what if the checksum fails?
1871 2013-04-22 16:01:52 <alaricsp> Eg, when adding something to the wallet, checksum it, then go back and sanity-check it using whatever other means exist, then write it to disk, then read it back, then check the checksum, THEN say "saved OK"
1872 2013-04-22 16:01:56 <alaricsp> That depends
1873 2013-04-22 16:02:16 <alaricsp> If it's a repeatable opreation like making a new address, then just do it again from scratch
1874 2013-04-22 16:02:38 <alaricsp> In other cases, look at what you'd do if the disk write failed; it's a similar situation, you can't seem to reliably and persistently record what you wanted
1875 2013-04-22 16:03:37 <alaricsp> Try and arrange things so you can confirm the checksum is OK on disk (not that you can really tell you've not just read it back from the OS cache, but there's only SO much you can do...) before confirming the write is OK, then the higher-levle component merely has another way for writes to fail.
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1877 2013-04-22 16:04:04 <alaricsp> If changing between checksum systems, overlap them - compute the new checksum, then check the old checksum, so you know there's not a gap in which errors could occur
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1880 2013-04-22 16:06:35 <gmaxwell> alaricsp: You can't actually read what hits the disk reliably, alas.
1881 2013-04-22 16:06:52 <gmaxwell> Because OS caching assumes the disk/bus/etc. is reliable.
1882 2013-04-22 16:07:22 <gmaxwell> oh you just said that, sorry.
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1900 2013-04-22 16:20:18 <alaricsp> gmaxwell: Aye; best you can do is fsync then read back, and Just Hope.
1901 2013-04-22 16:20:42 <BlueMatt> see? this is why we need to implement bitcoin in the kernel layer, then we can do all kinds of fancy things :P
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1903 2013-04-22 16:21:35 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: meh, just reboot the system after initially creating the wallet. "Works for microsoft!"
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1907 2013-04-22 16:24:26 <wumpus> gavinandresen: better to log to debug.log, as qDebug() is not going anywhere by default except to the standard output, which is a no-op on windows
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1909 2013-04-22 16:24:51 <wumpus> gavinandresen: for errors the user needs to know about you can use either a notification (through Notificator) or an error, depending on what you want
1910 2013-04-22 16:25:13 felixhandte has joined
1911 2013-04-22 16:26:00 <gavinandresen> Where do Notificator messages end up?
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1913 2013-04-22 16:27:50 <wumpus> they end up as tray messages (in windows), as growl messages on mac, etc
1914 2013-04-22 16:27:54 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 251 seconds)
1915 2013-04-22 16:28:18 <gavinandresen> wumpus: thanks
1916 2013-04-22 16:28:19 i2pRelay has joined
1917 2013-04-22 16:28:23 <wumpus> it's really when you want to notify the user of something that happens, for example an incoming transaction
1918 2013-04-22 16:28:35 copumpkin has joined
1919 2013-04-22 16:28:50 <gavinandresen> PaymentRequests are never "out of the blue", so it sounds like a modal dialog box is the right thing to do
1920 2013-04-22 16:29:01 <wumpus> yes, indeed
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1922 2013-04-22 16:30:04 <gavinandresen> cool.  I still need to get jenkins working properly and then write up a QA test plan, which will probably mean teaching the web-side code to generate good "bad" requests
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1926 2013-04-22 16:33:55 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: if you need help with jenkins Im around off and on, just ping
1927 2013-04-22 16:34:42 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: thanks, if I run into issues I'll ask
1928 2013-04-22 16:35:07 <alaricsp> BlueMatt: This kind of stuff is pain and suffering for database developers in general
1929 2013-04-22 16:35:29 <BlueMatt> alaricsp: yea, hence the reason O_DIRECT exists...
1930 2013-04-22 16:35:38 <alaricsp> http://sqlite.org/atomiccommit.html is fun reading on that front
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1932 2013-04-22 16:35:52 <alaricsp> Even O_DIRECT doesn't really protect you from write buffering in the drive, either
1933 2013-04-22 16:35:58 saulimus has joined
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1935 2013-04-22 16:36:26 <BlueMatt> yep, but it does provide a lot wrt this kind of issues
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1939 2013-04-22 16:40:29 <HM2> afaict, there are mount options on ext4 on Linux that force it to push a barrier to the drive when you fsync
1940 2013-04-22 16:40:39 <HM2> the problem is what the drive itself actually does
1941 2013-04-22 16:40:40 Tom_Soft has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1942 2013-04-22 16:41:02 <BlueMatt> too many layers of abstraction...
1943 2013-04-22 16:41:05 <alaricsp> Also, more secure fsyncs then make people go "WAT MY DISK IS NOW SLOOOOW"
1944 2013-04-22 16:41:30 <nsh> loltradeoffs, film at 11
1945 2013-04-22 16:41:32 <alaricsp> There needs to be some slightly better management of differing levels of expectation, perhaps :-)
1946 2013-04-22 16:41:49 canooon has joined
1947 2013-04-22 16:42:21 <BlueMatt> we need a generic firmware interface for drives so programs can force the drive to use specific firmwares to enforce their intentions manually
1948 2013-04-22 16:42:43 <HM2> abstraction is good
1949 2013-04-22 16:42:52 <alaricsp> We just need the right abstractions
1950 2013-04-22 16:43:02 <HM2> you need to avoid leaky abstractions
1951 2013-04-22 16:43:07 <BlueMatt> we need magic
1952 2013-04-22 16:43:15 <HM2> yes, magic also
1953 2013-04-22 16:43:36 <alaricsp> As a database software developer, I'd like to say "These writes are all part of a group... Right, now block me until that group is written", rather than having to fsync an entire fd
1954 2013-04-22 16:43:50 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1955 2013-04-22 16:44:10 <HM2> it doesn't have to be a blocking or synchronous API, you just need reliable notification of when it's done
1956 2013-04-22 16:44:14 <alaricsp> Yes
1957 2013-04-22 16:44:23 i2pRelay has joined
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1959 2013-04-22 16:45:18 <nsh> this can be done with inotify probably
1960 2013-04-22 16:45:19 Spami has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1961 2013-04-22 16:45:49 <HM2> it's like TCP and sockets. people think TCP means "reliable", but it doesn't guarantee that the data you sent has reached *application* code, just some remote TCP stack.
1962 2013-04-22 16:45:51 FredEE has joined
1963 2013-04-22 16:46:11 <HM2> sockets are a crappy abstraction on a stream between 2 applications
1964 2013-04-22 16:48:15 <alaricsp> Quite
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1966 2013-04-22 16:48:27 <alaricsp> I have many rants against TCP...
1967 2013-04-22 16:49:00 <Scrat> 0mq = communication done right
1968 2013-04-22 16:49:07 <alaricsp> Yeah, 0mq is nice
1969 2013-04-22 16:49:33 <HM2> except 0mq it cuts you off completely from managing peers
1970 2013-04-22 16:50:01 <Scrat> HM2: what? no
1971 2013-04-22 16:50:43 <HM2> "sockets" in zmq are really queues
1972 2013-04-22 16:50:46 <wumpus> I must say that even though some newfangled protocols are better for specific cases, TCP is holding itself very well for a 70's protocol
1973 2013-04-22 16:51:01 <HM2> they're not sockets, it's a pointless abstraction
1974 2013-04-22 16:51:04 PartTimeLegend has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1975 2013-04-22 16:51:24 gagecolton has joined
1976 2013-04-22 16:51:26 <Scrat> and queues is what you ned 99% of the time
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1981 2013-04-22 16:53:14 <HM2> 0mq is great, don't get me wrong, but the patterns are kind of confusing for newbies, the BSD sockets style API doesn't suit, and the background stuff it does limits its ability to be customised
1982 2013-04-22 16:54:12 <wumpus> so HM2, what is your great alternative to everything?
1983 2013-04-22 16:55:24 <HM2> I don't have one, everything sucks
1984 2013-04-22 16:55:35 <wumpus> how would you redesign the internet if you had the chance?
1985 2013-04-22 16:55:38 <wumpus> hehe okay
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1988 2013-04-22 16:56:20 HM2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1990 2013-04-22 16:56:52 <HM2> <HM2> I have a few ideas how i'd reshape 0MQ though
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1993 2013-04-22 16:58:02 <HM2> Fundamentally you have 2 filtered/selective socket types: PUB/SUB and ROUTER and 1/2 unfiltered types: DEALER and PUSH/PULL
1994 2013-04-22 16:58:13 <wumpus> yep
1995 2013-04-22 16:58:32 <HM2> you also have 1 multicast type: PUB and 2 unicast types: ROUTER and DEALER/PUSH
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2001 2013-04-22 16:59:14 <HM2> So i think all the types except REQ/REP can be reduced
2002 2013-04-22 16:59:39 <HM2> i don't like the idea of specifying patterns as a type of socket rather than a type of message or at the send() side of the API
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2007 2013-04-22 17:00:28 <wumpus> well specifying it as a type of socket forces you to stick to one pattern
2008 2013-04-22 17:00:35 <HM2> yep
2009 2013-04-22 17:00:43 <wumpus> but yeah, I'm sure there can be cases in which using multiple would be useful
2010 2013-04-22 17:00:54 <HM2> but the socket type restricts the order you can use send() and recv() in anyway
2011 2013-04-22 17:01:00 <wumpus> yes
2012 2013-04-22 17:01:14 <HM2> so it already effects your messaging code
2013 2013-04-22 17:01:33 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2014 2013-04-22 17:01:49 <HM2> why not zmq_broadcast(), zmq_publish(), zmq_deal() and zmq_sendto() ?
2015 2013-04-22 17:02:05 <HM2> they all do either filtering or unicast/multicast, 4 combinations
2016 2013-04-22 17:02:16 <wumpus> yes that'd be explicit, usually that's more clear
2017 2013-04-22 17:02:27 <HM2> REQ and REP basically remove connections from the pool until a reply is received
2018 2013-04-22 17:02:50 <HM2> ROUTER basically sends packets to 1 peer based on address....well that's like a private subscription of 1
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2021 2013-04-22 17:03:05 <HM2> so i think there are other ways to skin the MQ cat
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2027 2013-04-22 17:09:01 <HM2> On the plus side, at least Android and mobile dev means people can write network apps for everyday people outside of the browser and HTTP again
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2029 2013-04-22 17:09:23 <phantomcircuit> HM2, the reason for that is they can setup udp broadcast sockets once instead of for every message
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2040 2013-04-22 17:23:05 <ProfMac> can anyone with ipv6 do a ping6 gaia.vima.austin.tx.us for me?
2041 2013-04-22 17:23:23 <sipa> gavinandresen: could you live with 1) broadcasting transactions on p2p but 2) specify that if requesting the payment ack fails, a client is supposed to keep retrying getting it?
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2044 2013-04-22 17:24:11 <denisx> ProfMac: works
2045 2013-04-22 17:24:32 i2pRelay has joined
2046 2013-04-22 17:24:45 <ProfMac> denisx: thanks.  I'm on the road and can't ping4 it from here.  Was worried.
2047 2013-04-22 17:25:04 <gavinandresen> sipa: what do you image the user experience is like?  I click to pay, get the request, press send….  and then ???
2048 2013-04-22 17:26:07 MobGod has joined
2049 2013-04-22 17:26:08 <gavinandresen> ^image^imagine
2050 2013-04-22 17:26:48 <HM2> phantomcircuit: yes, which means there's coupling between the API and the backend transport
2051 2013-04-22 17:27:12 <sipa> gavinandresen: in the background
2052 2013-04-22 17:27:12 jtimon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2053 2013-04-22 17:27:24 <sipa> gavinandresen: like broadcasting p2p
2054 2013-04-22 17:27:41 jaequery has joined
2055 2013-04-22 17:27:41 <gavinandresen> sipa: will the user eventually be shown the message in the PaymentACK ?
2056 2013-04-22 17:28:47 <sipa> gavinandresen: hmm
2057 2013-04-22 17:29:00 Steve132 has joined
2058 2013-04-22 17:29:03 <sipa> he should be, i guess
2059 2013-04-22 17:29:17 nidefawl_ has joined
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2061 2013-04-22 17:30:19 <sipa> gavinandresen: but background tasks causing UI is not a good idea, i guess
2062 2013-04-22 17:30:30 brson has joined
2063 2013-04-22 17:31:02 <gavinandresen> If the user experience is reasonable, then I'm OK with re-transmitting the Payment until a PaymentACK is received.  Might be disconcerting to the user to get an ACK message a couple hours/days/weeks after making a payment, though
2064 2013-04-22 17:31:51 <sipa> the idea is to minimize the cases where the merchant gets a payment without the metadata/refund info/...
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2066 2013-04-22 17:32:06 <sipa> which may need a more manual processing
2067 2013-04-22 17:32:17 <gavinandresen> mmm.   I think merchants should just work hard to make their payment_urls are up 99.999% of the time
2068 2013-04-22 17:32:22 <sipa> agree
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2074 2013-04-22 17:32:53 <gavinandresen> … so maybe the right thing is if the Payment/PaymentACK fails, tell the user "merchant is having problems, but payment sent."
2075 2013-04-22 17:32:54 <sipa> if the transaction is already confirmed at the time the payment is sent, there is no problem at al, it's just nice to get the data still
2076 2013-04-22 17:32:57 <lianj> gavinandresen: the user should not wait until he sees the txs in the payment message on the network but instead (ofc anyway) validate it and push the txs out to the network (again) any only then send an ack?
2077 2013-04-22 17:33:45 <sipa> i guess the meaning of an ack is "transaction looks good, we accept it under the condition that you don't try to double-spend this"
2078 2013-04-22 17:34:03 <gavinandresen> sipa: yes
2079 2013-04-22 17:35:08 <lianj> ok so if a user manages to double spend it, the ack should not be a binding contract
2080 2013-04-22 17:35:41 <sipa> indeed
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2082 2013-04-22 17:37:36 <gavinandresen> The binding contract is the signed PaymentRequest plus a confirmed-in-the-blockchain transaction
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2084 2013-04-22 17:38:24 <sipa> gavinandresen: also, i think that once an ack is received, a sender shouldn't be required to broadcast the p2p transaction anymore (the receiver is in a better position to do so), but he can
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2087 2013-04-22 17:39:26 <JDuke128> hello , i'm using bitcoinj api , i ve tried to receive bitcoins and handle them.There is callback method named "onCoinsReceived(Wallet w,Transaction tx,BigInteger prevBalance,BigInteger newBalance)  , i want to get user's message on payment like transaction id , so i can identify which payment it is.But i can only get user's bitcoin address with "Transaction tx" TransactionInput input =
2088 2013-04-22 17:39:26 <JDuke128> tx.getInputs().get(0); Address from = input.getFromAddress(); .How can i get user's message ?
2089 2013-04-22 17:39:45 MobGod has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2090 2013-04-22 17:40:02 <JDuke128> hello , i'm using bitcoinj api , i ve tried to receive bitcoins and handle them.There is callback method named "onCoinsReceived(Wallet w,Transaction tx,BigInteger prevBalance,BigInteger newBalance)  , i want to get user's message on payment like transaction id , so i can identify which payment it is.But i can only get user's bitcoin address with "Transaction tx" TransactionInput input =
2091 2013-04-22 17:40:02 <JDuke128> tx.getInputs().get(0); Address from = input.getFromAddress(); .How can i get user's message ?
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2093 2013-04-22 17:40:13 <gavinandresen> sipa: I'm fine with that.  I'm fine with wallets not broadcasting if they don't get an ACK, too.  I do think that merchants and clients have to assume that the other party might be malicious, and might broadcast even if they're not "supposed to"
2094 2013-04-22 17:40:13 <JDuke128> sry
2095 2013-04-22 17:40:39 i2pRelay has joined
2096 2013-04-22 17:41:05 <JDuke128> i cant get any payment message from bitcoinj api
2097 2013-04-22 17:41:10 <JDuke128> someone know how to do it ?
2098 2013-04-22 17:41:24 <gavinandresen> Anybody here happen to know how to point Qt to a cross-compiled version of openssl when configuring it with -openssl….
2099 2013-04-22 17:42:27 whiterabbit has joined
2100 2013-04-22 17:42:28 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: how are you doing it in gitian?
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2102 2013-04-22 17:42:41 <Luke-Jr> sipa: FWIW, I agree with alaricsp that plain text would be better, if only so it could be found easier by novices doing data recovery <.<
2103 2013-04-22 17:43:08 robbak_ has joined
2104 2013-04-22 17:43:52 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I think I'm not-- I gitian-compiled the linux binaries, I think I mis-remembered and never created windows....
2105 2013-04-22 17:44:07 <BlueMatt> oh...
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2109 2013-04-22 17:44:39 <jgm> JDuke128: TD's your man but suspect he's gone for the day
2110 2013-04-22 17:45:03 <etotheipi_> sipa: do you know if there's any limit on value size in LevelDB?
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2115 2013-04-22 17:45:17 <BlueMatt> JDuke128: there is no user message
2116 2013-04-22 17:45:28 <etotheipi_> both feasibly, and optimization-wise?  for instance, if I have a 2 MB key, do you think it's benefits me to break it between entries with subsequent keys?
2117 2013-04-22 17:45:43 <etotheipi_> s/2 MB key/2 MB value/g
2118 2013-04-22 17:46:02 <BlueMatt> JDuke128: there never has been, and never will be a user-message associated with transactions that are announced over the p2p protocol
2119 2013-04-22 17:46:14 <gavinandresen> Aha:  http://qt-project.org/doc/qt-4.8/ssl.html
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2123 2013-04-22 17:47:17 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i'm absolutely in favor of a text format, but only as an import/export format, and not as local storage
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2126 2013-04-22 17:47:42 <sipa> (inefficient, hard to do checksums, ...)
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2129 2013-04-22 17:48:19 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: to make finding the data easy we can use easily found magic in the wallet files.
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2131 2013-04-22 17:48:40 <Luke-Jr> true
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2137 2013-04-22 17:50:48 <petertodd> gavinandresen: the payment protocol needs to make it clear that payment is satisfied not when a particular set of transactions appear on the p2p network and confirm in the blockchain, but rather that the payment is complete when a set of outputs appear on the p2p network/confirm in the blockchain. If we don't make that distinction, we're vulnerable to tranaction mutability, vendors need to have code checking sighash types carefully, and
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2140 2013-04-22 17:51:46 <lianj> "Once broadcast on the Bitcon p2p network, payments are like any other Bitcoin transaction and may be confirmed or not." but yea
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2142 2013-04-22 17:52:05 <gavinandresen> petertodd: sure.  Patches welcome for the gist (or the BIP, when I turn it into a BIP)
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2144 2013-04-22 17:52:26 <gmaxwell> petertodd: "carefully, and" [...] (you're truncated)
2145 2013-04-22 17:52:31 Optimo has joined
2146 2013-04-22 17:52:40 ColinT has joined
2147 2013-04-22 17:52:40 <petertodd> ... users can't change their tx fees after the fact with tx replacement.
2148 2013-04-22 17:52:42 capuchin has joined
2149 2013-04-22 17:52:50 <petertodd> (odd, why didn't that plugin load at startup...)
2150 2013-04-22 17:53:04 philihp has joined
2151 2013-04-22 17:53:05 <gavinandresen> petertodd: I predict that lots of wording in the spec won't help merchants get it right, though.
2152 2013-04-22 17:53:59 <petertodd> gavinandresen: heck no, only source-code can do that. Well, and the working replace-by-fee patch I'll be done soon.
2153 2013-04-22 17:54:57 <gavinandresen> Is there consensus that replace-by-fee is a good idea?  My knee-jerk reaction is that it is a terrible idea, but I haven't thought deeply about it
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2155 2013-04-22 17:55:37 <petertodd> I really, really doubt there will ever be consensus, but John (and my) whole point about it is regardless of what consensus is, it's easy to implement.
2156 2013-04-22 17:55:52 <philihp> can bitcoin be divisible past the 8th decimal? just wondering if the office space/superman plot will work.
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2160 2013-04-22 17:56:27 <gavinandresen> well, in any case, I think relay-first-double-spend should be implemented before any replace transaction patches
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2165 2013-04-22 17:57:16 <gavinandresen> (and warn-the-merchant/user that a double-spend attempt is happening ASAP)
2166 2013-04-22 17:57:33 <petertodd> gavinandresen: Well, replace by fee *is* relay double spend in a way...
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2168 2013-04-22 17:57:54 <lianj> yea, there is no channel after the payment_ack
2169 2013-04-22 17:57:56 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: It's a bad thing, but at the same time, it seems somewhat inevitable.  I do have a general belief that having the worst case be the default has a very good property of aligning expectations and reality (the rational being that people can transact safely under many possible rules, but they must know the rules), but I don't know how to weigh that against hastening baddness.
2170 2013-04-22 17:58:19 <gmaxwell> I agree that things like double spend alerting improvements would make that tradeoff easier.
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2173 2013-04-22 17:58:54 <gavinandresen> yes, that's why I think the relaying/warning should be implemented first.  Then we can argue over what default policy should be.
2174 2013-04-22 17:59:23 <gavinandresen> … a diversity of policies would be fine, too, if we can't agree....
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2177 2013-04-22 18:00:20 <petertodd> We also have to remember that large block sizes break the security of zero-conf anyway because they imply that not all nodes can keep up with the tx volume, thus achieving consensus by "hope and prayers" is really not going to work.
2178 2013-04-22 18:00:43 <gmaxwell> I think in this case diversity is kinda pessimal.  E.g. some kinds of replacement only work for badguys— who don't need it to be reliable. But yea, easier to discuss after whatever harm mitigation we'd put in place is in place.
2179 2013-04-22 18:01:18 <petertodd> After all, ironically broadcasting double-spends setups up everything miners need to replace-by-fee a lot easier because they'll have a second tx to compare too...
2180 2013-04-22 18:02:07 garuma has joined
2181 2013-04-22 18:02:21 <gmaxwell> petertodd: some of the proposals along those lines wouldn't allow that.
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2184 2013-04-22 18:03:24 <gmaxwell> petertodd: e.g. at least at one point I'd suggested basically extracting the signature, specifically to prevent that. Though the implementation would likely be more complex and you couldn't tell if the double spend still paid you...
2185 2013-04-22 18:03:39 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Wouldn't allow in some cases, you can always get enough information for a single txin though.
2186 2013-04-22 18:03:45 <petertodd> (single txin transaction)
2187 2013-04-22 18:04:05 <petertodd> And yeah, that'd break good uses of replacement...
2188 2013-04-22 18:04:06 <Luke-Jr> it's too bad txids aren't defined in terms of hash(first-input-coin) so they remain unique with various modifications..
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2195 2013-04-22 18:08:31 <jgm> Am I right in assuming that if I create a transaction manually I cannot sign it without also having access to the transactions which I am using as inputs?  From what I can see I need all of input transactions so that I can put their pubScriptKeys
2196 2013-04-22 18:08:57 <jgm> ... in to the current transaction as part of the signing process
2197 2013-04-22 18:10:08 <garuma> there's an EASIER way to BTC-if you think you have the skill, try your hand at biggest Bitcoin poker room  http://sealswithclubs.eu/aff.php?aff=318--they play like chickens!!!
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2200 2013-04-22 18:11:09 <kadoban> jgm: that shouldn't be true, i think you only need the wallet containing the addresses that the inputs were sent to
2201 2013-04-22 18:12:02 <jgm> kadoban: but doesn't that then mean you have to assume that the output script from the input transaction is standard?
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2205 2013-04-22 18:13:17 <Luke-Jr> jgm: it's necessary if you want to verify how much you're sending
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2207 2013-04-22 18:14:39 <kadoban> jgm: i'm not 100% sure in that case, but i think all you need whatever it is that lets you spend those outputs.
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2211 2013-04-22 18:15:12 <jgm> Hmm... perhaps I'm reading this wrong.  From what I can see, as part of signing a transaction you need to include the output script from the previous transaction in to the one you are creating.  Is this not the case then?
2212 2013-04-22 18:16:31 <petertodd> gavinandresen: https://gist.github.com/petertodd/5436954
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2220 2013-04-22 18:20:31 <petertodd> gavinandresen: Remember that with some SIGHASH cleverness you can write the transaction such that the merchant can change it if they need to change the fee. Change is tough to handle now - though not important for apps like funding an account - but that can be fixed with more flexible SIGHASH flags down the road.
2221 2013-04-22 18:20:37 <gavinandresen> petertodd: cool, I'll process/merge it as soon as I'm done with what I'm working on
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2223 2013-04-22 18:21:13 <kadoban> jgm: like look at the signrawtransaction call, all you /have/ to give it is the unsigned raw transaction and it gets the other stuff from the wallet, i'm not seeing why you'd need anything else. unless you're counting /creating/ the transaction as part of the signing process
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2225 2013-04-22 18:21:45 <gavinandresen> petertodd: mmm.   Random thought I had was that there would be no downside to always signing with SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY
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2228 2013-04-22 18:22:27 <petertodd> gavinandresen: Provided you never chain multiple transactions though, which bitcoin-qt does, but that's not a great practice anyway.
2229 2013-04-22 18:23:23 <petertodd> Once I get replace-by-fee going I should make a bot that adds small inputs to any SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY tx that it can find...
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2232 2013-04-22 18:25:20 <c4pt> can anyone help me with setting up poolserverj ?
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2262 2013-04-22 18:52:09 <jgm> kadoban: that's not a great example though, because bitcoind already has the previous transactions.  According to the code it does indeed pull in the old transactions so that it can use their output scripts as part of the signing process.  Makes standalone transaction generation... interesting
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2267 2013-04-22 18:53:15 <kadoban> jgm: you only asked about signing, not generation. signing can be done on an offline computer, the generation cannot be (unless you copied over all of the needed stuff, but that'd be rather pointless)
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2271 2013-04-22 18:55:03 <jgm> Well I was talking about signing as part of creating a transaction manually i.e. without the intervention or requirement of bitcoind.
2272 2013-04-22 18:55:23 <jgm> Will have to reconsider how I approach that now.
2273 2013-04-22 18:55:52 <kadoban> jgm: are you actually trying to accomplish something specific, or just figuring out how stuff works?
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2277 2013-04-22 18:58:31 <jgm> I'm writing some code that allows people to create transactions.  It's in Java, but didn't want to use bitcoinj so am building my own
2278 2013-04-22 18:58:53 <kadoban> ah okay
2279 2013-04-22 18:58:59 <kadoban> good luck, sounds like it should be fun
2280 2013-04-22 18:59:06 <jgm> That's what I used to think...
2281 2013-04-22 18:59:11 <HM2> the tedius bit is presumably querying the database for unspent outputs to use?
2282 2013-04-22 18:59:24 <HM2> tedious
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2286 2013-04-22 19:00:20 <BlueMatt> jgm: why not bitcoinj?
2287 2013-04-22 19:00:20 <JDuke128> hello , i'm using bitcoinj api , i ve tried to receive bitcoins and handle them.There is callback method named "onCoinsReceived(Wallet w,Transaction tx,BigInteger prevBalance,BigInteger newBalance)  , i want to get user's message on payment like transaction id , so i can identify which payment it is.But i can only get user's bitcoin address with "Transaction tx" TransactionInput input =
2288 2013-04-22 19:00:20 <JDuke128> tx.getInputs().get(0); Address from = input.getFromAddress(); .How can i get user's message ?
2289 2013-04-22 19:00:28 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2290 2013-04-22 19:00:48 <BlueMatt> JDuke128: I already told you, there is no such thing as a user's message
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2293 2013-04-22 19:01:03 <JDuke128> so how can i get transaction id ?
2294 2013-04-22 19:01:12 <JDuke128> i can only get user address ???
2295 2013-04-22 19:01:14 <BlueMatt> tx.getHash()
2296 2013-04-22 19:01:27 <JDuke128> getHash is address of user?
2297 2013-04-22 19:01:33 <BlueMatt> getHash is the transaction id
2298 2013-04-22 19:01:44 <jgm> BlueMatt: various reasons, but partly because I'm not such a fan of the C++-into-Java route that was taken with it and partly because it seems quite heavyweight for what I hope would be a relatively simple action
2299 2013-04-22 19:02:07 <BlueMatt> jgm: really? I find it fairly java-ish
2300 2013-04-22 19:02:25 <JDuke128> i'm in dilemma now... need to think more i dont think transactionId is helpful for me ;(
2301 2013-04-22 19:02:27 <jgm> Everything is a byte[] !
2302 2013-04-22 19:02:29 <BlueMatt> jgm: bitcoinj is very light-weight...its primary target is android phones...
2303 2013-04-22 19:02:52 <BlueMatt> hmm? it keeps around serialized versions of a lot of things, but it does deserialize them into non-byte[]s
2304 2013-04-22 19:03:09 <JDuke128> bitcoinj has some bugs need to be fixed
2305 2013-04-22 19:03:13 <JDuke128> i tried bitcoinj on OSX
2306 2013-04-22 19:03:40 <BlueMatt> JDuke128: read the topic...
2307 2013-04-22 19:04:04 <BlueMatt> JDuke128: relevant parts: "Tell us what you're trying to do, not how you think you need to do it. " and "There is no from address"
2308 2013-04-22 19:04:13 <JDuke128> DiskBlockStore is not working stable
2309 2013-04-22 19:04:46 <JDuke128> when i run my bitcoinj app , it first time runs fine
2310 2013-04-22 19:05:00 <JDuke128> but on 2nd time DiskBlockStore throws exception
2311 2013-04-22 19:05:14 <BlueMatt> care to paste the exception into a pastebin?
2312 2013-04-22 19:05:29 <JDuke128> then i need to delete file and redownload again
2313 2013-04-22 19:05:30 <JDuke128> ok
2314 2013-04-22 19:07:31 <jgm> BlueMatt: Things like the Script being all byte[] with a boolean to state whether it represents data or opcodes, opcodes being ints, that type of thing.  I understand where it came from, and why it's set up that way, just not such a fan of it and the main thing I want to do when I have the time is to play with some of the more interesting scripts so wanted more enums and objects.  Oh, and I dislike mutable objects
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2316 2013-04-22 19:07:39 <JDuke128_> http://pastie.org/7699007
2317 2013-04-22 19:07:44 <JDuke128> here is the bug
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2319 2013-04-22 19:08:00 <JDuke128> then i need to delete block file
2320 2013-04-22 19:08:04 <JDuke128> then redownload again
2321 2013-04-22 19:08:09 <jgm> Of course, now I'm spending lots of time recreating big chunks of the core functionality.  I'll probably end up with a half-reimplementation knowing the way that these things go...
2322 2013-04-22 19:08:10 <JDuke128> then it works
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2325 2013-04-22 19:08:44 <JDuke128> now you understand the problem ? i will print stack trace now
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2333 2013-04-22 19:10:53 <BlueMatt> jgm: re: ScriptChunk being a byte[]: meh, simple things like this probably could be easily changed...so change them, patches welcome
2334 2013-04-22 19:11:20 ThomasV has joined
2335 2013-04-22 19:11:21 <BlueMatt> jgm: re: opcodes-as-ints: well, there are some which are not used, and IIRC you cant manually set enum values, which we would need
2336 2013-04-22 19:12:06 JunK-Y_ is now known as JunK-Y
2337 2013-04-22 19:12:10 <BlueMatt> jgm: mutable objects: yea, not so nice, but if they werent, doing the full verification stuff (like hashing slightly tweaked versions of a tx to verify sigs) would KILL you if you did Transactions as non-mutable
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2340 2013-04-22 19:12:59 <jgm> Well on that last point that's just what I'm about to embark upon.  Don't think that it'll quite kill things, but I'll be sure to let you know if it does
2341 2013-04-22 19:14:28 <BlueMatt> JDuke128: hmm...that is a strange issue not sure whats up, can you file a bug and post some code to reproduce?
2342 2013-04-22 19:14:48 <jgm> I have a few bits and pieces that might be useful for bitcoinj, like parsing of BTC values with all the various denominations, but given that I've changed a lot of the base types most of it would be non-trivial to integrate.  Plus I suspect that some of the things that I've done will be fine on a server but not so much on a mobile
2343 2013-04-22 19:14:57 <BlueMatt> jgm: hmm, well I'd be surprised if it didnt significantly effect performance when doing full verification (at least if you are doing native ecdsa verification, because without it ecdsa kills)
2344 2013-04-22 19:15:16 <JDuke128_> http://pastie.org/7699033
2345 2013-04-22 19:15:30 <JDuke128> BlueMatt , more detailed
2346 2013-04-22 19:16:00 Davincij15 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2347 2013-04-22 19:16:03 <JDuke128> i m using bitcoinj 0.9 snapshot
2348 2013-04-22 19:16:30 <BlueMatt> JDuke128: can you file a bug, I dont have time to try to reproduce right now
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2350 2013-04-22 19:16:41 <jgm> I won't be doing verification, I'll be doing generation.  Might still have the problem, guess I'll find out.  Interesting to have gone through and built this anyway, ironed out some holes in my knowledge (and found a few more!)
2351 2013-04-22 19:16:58 <JDuke128> where?
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2353 2013-04-22 19:17:15 <JDuke128> github ?
2354 2013-04-22 19:17:30 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2355 2013-04-22 19:17:32 <JDuke128> https://github.com/fconcklin/bitcoinj
2356 2013-04-22 19:17:36 <JDuke128> here?
2357 2013-04-22 19:18:24 <JDuke128> https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/downloads/list
2358 2013-04-22 19:18:26 <BlueMatt> JDuke128: that github repo is a veeery old bitcoinj, its hosted at https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/issues/list
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2360 2013-04-22 19:18:40 <BlueMatt> JDuke128: calm down, people dont respond instantly
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2364 2013-04-22 19:19:46 <BlueMatt> jgm: yea, implementing stuff is fun, but considering lots and lots of edge cases is probably better left to non-custom software...anyway, for just generating your own transactions behind a bitcoind verifying proxy, you may do ok
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2370 2013-04-22 19:21:21 <JDuke128> done , https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/issues/detail?id=396&thanks=396&ts=1366657123
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2372 2013-04-22 19:22:29 <BlueMatt> thanks, someone should find time to try to respond soonish...
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2375 2013-04-22 19:25:13 <JDuke128> how can user say me "i pay you this money for x item"
2376 2013-04-22 19:25:33 <JDuke128> i can only get user's address
2377 2013-04-22 19:25:40 <JDuke128> on bitcoinj api
2378 2013-04-22 19:26:16 JDuke128_ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2379 2013-04-22 19:26:59 <BlueMatt> hmm? describe the situation with a bit more detail
2380 2013-04-22 19:27:02 <BlueMatt> not sure what you're asking
2381 2013-04-22 19:27:34 <JDuke128> for example i opened shop
2382 2013-04-22 19:27:42 <JDuke128> i sell apple and orange same price
2383 2013-04-22 19:27:54 <JDuke128> and user send my bitcoinj app 1BTC
2384 2013-04-22 19:27:59 <JDuke128> apple is 1BTC
2385 2013-04-22 19:28:03 <JDuke128> orange is 1BTC too
2386 2013-04-22 19:28:15 <JDuke128> so how can i understand what he paid BTC for?
2387 2013-04-22 19:28:35 <JDuke128> i can only get Transaction tx.getHash and tx.getAddress
2388 2013-04-22 19:29:00 <JDuke128> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/URI_Scheme
2389 2013-04-22 19:29:06 <JDuke128> doesnt help me eigther
2390 2013-04-22 19:29:37 <Guest65691> JDuke128: generate a bitcoin address for each invoice
2391 2013-04-22 19:29:51 <JDuke128> waow
2392 2013-04-22 19:29:59 <JDuke128> for apple i will make address
2393 2013-04-22 19:30:02 <Guest65691> no
2394 2013-04-22 19:30:05 <Guest65691> for each invoice
2395 2013-04-22 19:30:06 <JDuke128> for banana another bitcoin address?
2396 2013-04-22 19:30:35 <JDuke128> this is too ugly solution
2397 2013-04-22 19:30:39 <Guest65691> someone says, I want to buy bananana, you say pay $new_address 1BTC in the next three hours
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2400 2013-04-22 19:30:55 <philihp_> what Guest65691
2401 2013-04-22 19:30:56 <philihp_> said
2402 2013-04-22 19:30:57 <graingert> JDuke128: that's the suggested solution
2403 2013-04-22 19:30:59 <graingert> :p
2404 2013-04-22 19:31:02 <philihp_> that's what Macheist.com does
2405 2013-04-22 19:31:07 <sipa> addresses are cheap, use them
2406 2013-04-22 19:31:16 graingert is now known as Guest91314
2407 2013-04-22 19:31:22 <sipa> also, you don't care who pays something
2408 2013-04-22 19:31:27 <sipa> you care what they're paying for
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2412 2013-04-22 19:31:49 <JDuke128> for apple i open new address and for banana i get another address ?
2413 2013-04-22 19:31:54 <graingert_> JDuke128: NO!
2414 2013-04-22 19:31:59 <graingert_> for each invoice
2415 2013-04-22 19:32:11 <graingert_> do you know what an invoice is?
2416 2013-04-22 19:32:30 <JDuke128> i looked on dictionary now i understand what it is :)
2417 2013-04-22 19:32:33 <JDuke128> for each sell
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2419 2013-04-22 19:32:38 <graingert_> they have the primary key (basket_id, user_id, 3hour_segment)
2420 2013-04-22 19:32:45 <philihp_> you sell alice an apple and give her an address, she sends you 1 btc to that address. then you sell betty a banana, and give her another address.
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2422 2013-04-22 19:33:22 <graingert_> you sell alice another apple you make a new address
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2424 2013-04-22 19:33:34 <graingert_> addresses should never receive more than one TX
2425 2013-04-22 19:33:35 <jgm> It's all well and good to say that addresses are cheap, but address management is a royal pain in the ****.  And well-known addresses have something going for them as well.  Perhaps there is an ability to add additional information in to the script that can allow you to differentiate transactions?
2426 2013-04-22 19:33:36 <graingert_> if possible
2427 2013-04-22 19:33:53 <graingert_> jgm: it's not
2428 2013-04-22 19:34:04 <philihp_> if you use the same address, alice can just wait for you to reuse the address, and then claim she sent in the money. you don't know where the money comes from, all you know is it lands in your lap. so just have multiple laps.
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2430 2013-04-22 19:34:24 <JDuke128> it could be better solution if any message i could read from user on pay
2431 2013-04-22 19:34:49 <graingert_> JDuke128: look up the address in your invoice table, join on your basket and user tables
2432 2013-04-22 19:34:55 <jgm> graingert_: well let's agree to disagree on that one.
2433 2013-04-22 19:34:57 <graingert_> JDuke128: send the basket contents to the user
2434 2013-04-22 19:35:05 <BlueMatt> JDuke128: you cant do that right now, but there is ongoing work for a payment protocol which should be done soonish, that may allow messages with transactions
2435 2013-04-22 19:35:22 <BlueMatt> jgm: you cant really put it in scripts, but check out the payment protocol stuff
2436 2013-04-22 19:35:49 <jgm> BlueMatt: I've been watching enough of the discussion going on here to suspect that it isn't quite finalised yet
2437 2013-04-22 19:36:16 <BlueMatt> jgm: its not, but implementations are coming along
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2439 2013-04-22 19:36:52 <JDuke128> so bitcoinj is not currently ready for complex shipping operations
2440 2013-04-22 19:38:01 <JDuke128> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AToYv8crw4A
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2444 2013-04-22 19:40:20 <jgm> BlueMatt: sorry something you said earlier just struck me.  Can bitcoinj work without having access to the full blockchain?  Specifically, can it create, sign and transmit a transaction without the blockchain being local?
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2447 2013-04-22 19:40:46 <graingert_> JDuke128: it is
2448 2013-04-22 19:40:54 <graingert_> JDuke128: you use an address for each invoice
2449 2013-04-22 19:41:05 <graingert_> and keep your invoices in your DB with a timeout of some hours
2450 2013-04-22 19:41:08 i2pRelay has joined
2451 2013-04-22 19:41:16 <graingert_> then keep any money sent to addresses without an invoice
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2454 2013-04-22 19:42:03 <bibbybob> jgm, it can
2455 2013-04-22 19:42:42 midnightmagic has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2456 2013-04-22 19:44:19 <jgm> bibbybob: any example of that available somewhere?
2457 2013-04-22 19:44:33 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2458 2013-04-22 19:45:27 <kadoban> jgm: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Thin_Client_Security i belive bitcoinj is an SPV client, if that short description there helps
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2462 2013-04-22 19:46:11 <bibbybob> jgm, the toywallet example that's included with bitcoinj for instance
2463 2013-04-22 19:46:32 <jgm> Will take a look at the toywallet and see, thanks
2464 2013-04-22 19:46:33 <denisx> what is the channel with the bitcoinbot which says how long the mtgox tx rate is?
2465 2013-04-22 19:46:52 <michagogo> ;;goxlag
2466 2013-04-22 19:46:52 <gribble> MtGox lag is 0.144706 seconds. During this time, light travels 0.000289989203791 AU. You could have sent a bitcoin to the other side of the Earth, along the surface (0.0001339 AU).
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2469 2013-04-22 19:47:47 <denisx> thanks
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2476 2013-04-22 19:50:01 <bibbybob> jgm, it doesn't actually show how to create and sign a transaction, just how to receive them
2477 2013-04-22 19:50:24 <bibbybob> jgm, but the pingservice example is similar and does create new transactions
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2482 2013-04-22 19:53:18 <JDuke128> how can i generate new address ?
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2486 2013-04-22 19:55:18 <jgm> bibbybob: hmm... looks like toywallet still pulls down a blockchain, and that pingservice also uses the blockchain when bouncing coins received.  Will dig a little deeper and see if somewhere it ignores it
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2488 2013-04-22 19:56:38 <bibbybob> jgm, oh yes, but it's a minimal one that only stores headers afaik and is really quick to sync.
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2501 2013-04-22 19:59:47 <zapu> I'm learning about bitcoin and I want to know how the miner check if address have enough coin to spend (when validating transactions). I can't find info anywhere and reading unfamiliar codebase is hard... Can someone help?
2502 2013-04-22 20:00:06 <michagogo> zapu: You don't send from an address
2503 2013-04-22 20:00:09 <michagogo> As the topic say
2504 2013-04-22 20:00:10 <michagogo> s
2505 2013-04-22 20:00:23 <zapu> oh shit, it's even in the topic
2506 2013-04-22 20:00:23 <zapu> sorry
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2508 2013-04-22 20:00:28 <michagogo> You're spending the output(s) of one or more previous transaction
2509 2013-04-22 20:00:29 <zapu> i'll get back to reading then
2510 2013-04-22 20:00:41 <kadoban> zapu: all it has to verify is that the input transaction(s) aren't yet spend, and the inputs are >= the outputs
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2512 2013-04-22 20:01:02 <gmaxwell> zapu: bitcoin doesn't have anything like a "balance" or an account.
2513 2013-04-22 20:01:22 <gmaxwell> as kadoban says— each transaction spends the output of one or more prior transactions, so thats all that gets checked.
2514 2013-04-22 20:01:25 <zapu> I must've been mislead by blockexplorer.com then
2515 2013-04-22 20:01:29 <vinne81> Hi guys, I've got a question. I'm working on a dice game for a LTC based altcoin. I want to see the addresses associated with a transaction. So I check the prevout, correct index, and there is this hash. How do I turn this into an address?
2516 2013-04-22 20:01:59 <vinne81> I tried using that hash from the outputs in the referenced transaction, but I don't get the correct address
2517 2013-04-22 20:02:11 <zapu> thank you very much, I'll get back to learning. I thought it was from an address so I was looking for wrong thing all the time
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2520 2013-04-22 20:03:31 <kadoban> vinne81: http://gobittest.appspot.com/Address with this algorithm (start with box 3 i believe)
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2523 2013-04-22 20:03:54 <vinne81> I'll give it a try
2524 2013-04-22 20:04:12 <kadoban> vinne81: note that the network byte/version code is different probably for your altcoin
2525 2013-04-22 20:04:22 <vinne81> tur
2526 2013-04-22 20:04:23 <vinne81> true
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2528 2013-04-22 20:04:44 <vinne81> I'm just guessing here, since it's BQC (start with b), I think it's 55
2529 2013-04-22 20:04:49 <vinne81> or 56, tried both
2530 2013-04-22 20:05:09 <vinne81> It generates BQC looking addresses, just no the correct one :)
2531 2013-04-22 20:05:16 i2pRelay has joined
2532 2013-04-22 20:05:40 <vinne81> I hope they don't have anything custom in their hashing procedure
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2540 2013-04-22 20:15:47 <BlueMatt> jgm: it can run in spv mode, but it can also run in spv mode with a checkpoint as the base instead of the genesis block
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2542 2013-04-22 20:16:12 <BlueMatt> jgm: realistically, you could get it to run with a block store that writes everything to /dev/null, as long as you dont do reorgs or anything......
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2544 2013-04-22 20:17:27 <BlueMatt> but you'd really have to run without a chain and not keep track of confirmed transactions
2545 2013-04-22 20:17:37 <BlueMatt> (which is, obviously, a very bad idea)
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2557 2013-04-22 20:21:36 <jgm> I think my base problem is that I'm trying to separate out some of the components of Bitcoin as they are at the moment (wallet, transactions, blockchain/server) and it hasn't been built like that.  Heigh-ho
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2559 2013-04-22 20:22:52 <BlueMatt> well, they can certainly be fairly disconnected, but they definitely need each other to function
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2585 2013-04-22 20:48:10 <phrog> Hey all, I was sending with 0.8.1 on OSX and Bitcoin-qt crashed
2586 2013-04-22 20:48:31 kadoban has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2587 2013-04-22 20:48:32 <phrog> upon restart the transaction appears but seems to be stuck.
2588 2013-04-22 20:48:44 <sipa> elaborate
2589 2013-04-22 20:49:00 <phrog> it does not seem to have announced to the network
2590 2013-04-22 20:49:08 <phrog> and is getting not conformations
2591 2013-04-22 20:49:20 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2592 2013-04-22 20:49:34 <sipa> what is the transaction id?
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2594 2013-04-22 20:49:53 <phrog> 201b5d73777a833f8631c1fe09da9c758a86f98de2be3f1a79762b80c74c8bd4
2595 2013-04-22 20:50:30 <sipa> nope, my node hasn't seen it
2596 2013-04-22 20:50:39 <sipa> it will retransmit, no worries
2597 2013-04-22 20:50:44 <phrog> i did getrawtransaction and then sendrawtransaction but i get error code -22
2598 2013-04-22 20:52:24 <sipa> yes that won't work
2599 2013-04-22 20:52:33 <phrog> oh looks like it just re-announced!
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2601 2013-04-22 20:52:41 <sipa> sendrawtransaction tries to push a transaction int your mempool, which will cause it to broadcast
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2603 2013-04-22 20:52:58 <sipa> but if it's already in the mempool, you get an error
2604 2013-04-22 20:53:04 <sipa> that should be changed, imho
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2607 2013-04-22 20:53:30 <phrog> ok thanks for the insight
2608 2013-04-22 20:53:54 <sipa> my node has it now
2609 2013-04-22 20:53:58 <phrog> it looks like patience wins.
2610 2013-04-22 20:53:59 <phrog> :)
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2614 2013-04-22 20:58:40 <michagogo> My node has it
2615 2013-04-22 20:58:53 <michagogo> bc.i does too, fwiw
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2618 2013-04-22 21:01:15 <etotheipi_> sipa: any insight into LevelDB efficiency with massive values?  i.e. if I have a 10 MB value... do you know if there's any benefit to breaking into multiple, enumerated key-value pairs?
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2620 2013-04-22 21:01:50 <sipa> etotheipi_: i don't think so
2621 2013-04-22 21:02:16 <etotheipi_> I guess the benefit is simply if I have to rewrite that key... then I have to swap the full 10 MB
2622 2013-04-22 21:02:18 <sipa> unless you frequently only need to read/update the individual pieces of course
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2626 2013-04-22 21:05:46 <etotheipi_> sipa: did you ever figure out a good paradigm for using LevelDB as a replacement for RAM?  like if I had a trie and wanted to move it to disk using LevelDB...?
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2719 2013-04-22 22:21:46 <amiller> i'm helping with this networking class at UMD
2720 2013-04-22 22:21:55 <amiller> for undergraduates who just learned to use sockets and select/poll
2721 2013-04-22 22:22:02 <amiller> and their final project is to implement a bitcoin client
2722 2013-04-22 22:22:50 <amiller> we're basically giving them MatthewLM's C bitcoin library with the (half-finished) networking parts yanked out  https://github.com/MatthewLM/cbitcoin
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2724 2013-04-22 22:23:08 <amiller> (they'll connect to testnet)
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2726 2013-04-22 22:23:35 <gmaxwell> can his code actually syncup with testnet?
2727 2013-04-22 22:23:56 <amiller> no i don't think so
2728 2013-04-22 22:24:11 <sipa> is he still working on it?
2729 2013-04-22 22:24:29 <amiller> i'm planning on a) trying to fix it if it doesn't so they can at least get to like 1000 in testnet and b) forking our own custom genesis block altchain
2730 2013-04-22 22:25:25 <amiller> the steps in the assignment are like 1) just make it version/verack and deal with pings and stuff, 2) start downloading and validating blocks, 3) grab transactions and validate those
2731 2013-04-22 22:25:47 <amiller> he has a pretty nice interface for blockchainstorage where you just feed it a block and it decides what to do with it, handles automatically reorging and connecting orphans and such
2732 2013-04-22 22:25:51 <amiller> (assuming it doesn't crash)
2733 2013-04-22 22:26:02 <amiller> but i don't know yet how far it gets
2734 2013-04-22 22:26:15 <amiller> i emailed him, he's still working on it but is distracted right now dealing with final exams
2735 2013-04-22 22:26:29 <amiller> i sent him some bitcoins as thanks :D
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2751 2013-04-22 22:40:50 <BlueMatt> amiller: you should have used bitcoinj, and if anyone had implemented it well, we could just replace the Peer stuff with the new code
2752 2013-04-22 22:41:11 <amiller> BlueMatt, they only know C
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2756 2013-04-22 22:41:45 <BlueMatt> :(
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2758 2013-04-22 22:42:10 <BlueMatt> amiller: fine, maybe https://github.com/jgarzik/picocoin
2759 2013-04-22 22:42:17 <gmaxwell> amiller: does jgarzik's picocoin stuff work?
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2769 2013-04-22 22:44:08 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yeah im currently using spinlocks which are very very fast, but the schema im using only works if threads work in sequence
2770 2013-04-22 22:44:39 <phantomcircuit> (note that it's still faster than a single thread as long as the switching time is less than the time to process a work unit)
2771 2013-04-22 22:44:54 <amiller> oh, hrm
2772 2013-04-22 22:44:56 <amiller> picocoin is cool
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2777 2013-04-22 22:47:20 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, 16 workers just incrementing a counter ~425 ns/switch
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2779 2013-04-22 22:47:33 <phantomcircuit> on a system with 2 real cores each with 2 hyperthreads
2780 2013-04-22 22:47:56 <amiller> picocoin seems a bit more complete
2781 2013-04-22 22:47:59 <amiller> it's kind of more confusing too
2782 2013-04-22 22:48:25 <phantomcircuit> seems to be ~25ns/switch/thread
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2784 2013-04-22 22:48:41 <phantomcircuit> of course it's also using all available cpu cycles
2785 2013-04-22 22:48:44 <phantomcircuit> sooo
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2803 2013-04-22 22:59:55 <T> mmy!~tm@CPE-120-147-167-84.gdiv1.vic.bigpond.net.au|hi here , not quite sure im in the right place but im looking for someone to develop a web front for a new  otc AUD to bitcoin service
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2808 2013-04-22 23:02:55 <gavinandresen> T|mmy: you might try http://www.reddit.com/r/Jobs4bitcoins
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2810 2013-04-22 23:05:36 <T> mmy!~tm@CPE-120-147-167-84.gdiv1.vic.bigpond.net.au|thanks for ya help :)
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