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  48 2013-04-23 00:36:43 <BTCOxygen> 1!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/btcoxygen|Hi
  49 2013-04-23 00:36:52 <BTCOxygen> 1!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/btcoxygen|I am setting up a few bitcoind nodes
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  51 2013-04-23 00:37:52 <BTCOxygen> 1!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/btcoxygen|Is there a way I can download the blockchain from my other nodes without verification since I trust all my nodes.
  52 2013-04-23 00:38:47 BTCOxygen is now known as 1!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/btcoxygen|BTCOxygen
  53 2013-04-23 00:40:58 <jaakkos> why not just copy the files directly
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  67 2013-04-23 01:06:28 <Luke-Jr> saivann: I think jgarzik was right on with ignoring the trolls >_<
  68 2013-04-23 01:06:43 <saivann> Luke-Jr : :(
  69 2013-04-23 01:06:54 <saivann> I tried to use something called diplomacy..
  70 2013-04-23 01:06:58 <saivann> But..
  71 2013-04-23 01:07:18 <gmaxwell> "saivann uses diplomacy, it wasn't very effective"
  72 2013-04-23 01:07:39 <Luke-Jr> hehe
  73 2013-04-23 01:07:47 <saivann> :)
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  75 2013-04-23 01:07:59 <BlueMatt> s/very//
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  78 2013-04-23 01:08:57 <gesell> would like to run some analysis of the blockchain. is bitcoin armory still the best bet? if so anyone know the requirements for just this activity (not the whole client, just running analysis of blockchain)
  79 2013-04-23 01:09:02 <gmaxwell> Theymos seems to be interested in increasing the quality of bitcointalk, perhaps we'll see less spillover drama in the future.
  80 2013-04-23 01:09:39 <saivann> Seriously I don't want that to overflow on you guys. If you have any suggestion to help reducing this, feel free to say it..
  81 2013-04-23 01:09:52 <jaakkos> gesell: perhaps you could use bitcointools
  82 2013-04-23 01:09:52 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: so I don't need to insta-lock all my BFL threads after all?
  83 2013-04-23 01:10:10 <gmaxwell> gesell: you didn't say what kind of analysis.
  84 2013-04-23 01:10:23 <gmaxwell> I'm not sure what tools armory provides, however, so I can't compar it to other things.
  85 2013-04-23 01:10:50 <gesell> jaakkos: this doesnt work on non berkley db client bases?
  86 2013-04-23 01:11:16 jzk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  87 2013-04-23 01:11:22 <jaakkos> it works
  88 2013-04-23 01:11:26 <gesell> gmaxwell: I will replicate some of the satoshidice stats but doing this only as a place to start and build the tools. would like to play with visualization in the future
  89 2013-04-23 01:11:26 <jaakkos> at least parts of it
  90 2013-04-23 01:11:35 <gesell> jaakkos: okay checking it out
  91 2013-04-23 01:11:57 <jaakkos> gesell: make sure you do -detachdb before using it
  92 2013-04-23 01:12:00 <CastroXXL> MagicalTux: Can I get an app ID for an app I am working on for Mt. Gox API?
  93 2013-04-23 01:12:35 <gesell> jaakkos: will do. and damn, my dev machine is 32 bit :/ "Running on a 32-bit system will result in a 'Cannot allocate memory' error when the tools try to mmap the second blk000?.dat file"
  94 2013-04-23 01:13:24 <gesell> CastroXXL: probably should ask in #mtgox but yes, actually  you can generate your own APP auth keys via your gox account
  95 2013-04-23 01:13:48 torsthaldo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  96 2013-04-23 01:14:46 <CastroXXL> I know I can generate my own app key and secrete, but I am looking to do it for the api/activate in the api v1. I'll ask on the #mtgox though
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 106 2013-04-23 01:19:42 <gmaxwell> Man. I don't know if I've ever even had reason to wonder if github has a way of blocking people before.
 107 2013-04-23 01:19:59 <saivann> o_O
 108 2013-04-23 01:20:30 * BlueMatt kindly asks for a link
 109 2013-04-23 01:20:59 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 110 2013-04-23 01:21:30 <gmaxwell> This whole thread: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/152
 111 2013-04-23 01:22:05 <BlueMatt> holy shit
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 115 2013-04-23 01:24:48 <saivann> I'm listening if you have any comments about the way I handled this since the start.
 116 2013-04-23 01:26:48 <gmaxwell> saivann: I think you've done just fine as far as I can tell.
 117 2013-04-23 01:27:02 systemParanoid has joined
 118 2013-04-23 01:27:14 <gmaxwell> I also think you should let me take some of the fire now.
 119 2013-04-23 01:27:30 <gmaxwell> One person should have to take this alone.
 120 2013-04-23 01:27:41 <gmaxwell> I'll also summon some help.
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 126 2013-04-23 01:28:08 <saivann> gmaxwell : Ok
 127 2013-04-23 01:28:40 <saivann> gmaxwell : "some of the fire" or "all the fire"?
 128 2013-04-23 01:28:53 <saivann> You said "One person should have to take this alone"
 129 2013-04-23 01:28:55 systemParanoid has joined
 130 2013-04-23 01:29:08 * BlueMatt is watching the D&D episode of community, so that sounded amazingly epic
 131 2013-04-23 01:29:28 <gmaxwell> er shouldn't have to.
 132 2013-04-23 01:29:40 <saivann> gmaxwell : Ok, that's clear
 133 2013-04-23 01:29:51 <gavinandresen> who is this Milly person?  do we know?
 134 2013-04-23 01:29:56 GMP has joined
 135 2013-04-23 01:30:03 <Luke-Jr> random newbie afaik
 136 2013-04-23 01:30:24 <gmaxwell> Username "HELP.org" on the forum, I believe.
 137 2013-04-23 01:30:25 <saivann> http://millybitcoin.com/
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 139 2013-04-23 01:31:01 <gavinandresen> wow, she's cute!
 140 2013-04-23 01:31:28 <Luke-Jr> …
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 142 2013-04-23 01:31:48 <gmaxwell> I just assumed she was a dude, like 9/10 of the "cute chicks" on the forum. :P
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 144 2013-04-23 01:32:10 <saivann> gavinandresen : The community is so frustrated that they are probably listening the IRC log, waiting for such a comment to start another fire :)
 145 2013-04-23 01:32:29 <gavinandresen> s'all right, I'm wearing nomex underwear today
 146 2013-04-23 01:32:30 i2pRelay has joined
 147 2013-04-23 01:32:35 <Luke-Jr> saivann: keep in mind bitcointalk is 99% trolls and 1% community
 148 2013-04-23 01:32:39 <gmaxwell> saivann: The logs are public for a reason. We don't use IRC in order to hide.
 149 2013-04-23 01:32:55 <Luke-Jr> I don't think the community is all that frustrated.
 150 2013-04-23 01:33:11 <gmaxwell> saivann: as you saw on the initial press pull other people had other views.
 151 2013-04-23 01:33:24 <Luke-Jr> (the "community" people are the ones who can understand "the decision hasn't been made, just deferred")
 152 2013-04-23 01:33:50 <saivann> gmaxwell Luke-Jr : Thanks, this is helpful to know. I've got controversial tasks without having a long experience with the community.
 153 2013-04-23 01:34:02 <gavinandresen> A portion of the community is upset because Jon and Roger have been working really hard for years, investing time and money, have the very best intentions for the success of Bitcoin, and are perceived to have been snubbed.
 154 2013-04-23 01:34:21 <saivann> And I completely understand that.
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 157 2013-04-23 01:36:40 <gesell> saivann: is millybitcoin the competing cryptocurrency to litecoin... like the litecoin of litecoin :P
 158 2013-04-23 01:36:53 <gavinandresen> you're thinking of feathercoin
 159 2013-04-23 01:37:11 <saivann> x_x
 160 2013-04-23 01:37:12 * gmaxwell googles
 161 2013-04-23 01:37:17 <gmaxwell> ... yea. it exists
 162 2013-04-23 01:37:21 * gmaxwell facepalm
 163 2013-04-23 01:37:22 <Luke-Jr> "It would be extremely difficult to shut down Bitcoin." "in addition to this additional anonymity is built into the system."
 164 2013-04-23 01:37:23 <gavinandresen> of COURSE it does....
 165 2013-04-23 01:39:27 CastroXXL has left ()
 166 2013-04-23 01:39:28 <BlueMatt> anyone wanna fork it out of existance?
 167 2013-04-23 01:39:59 <lianj> all of them?
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 169 2013-04-23 01:40:24 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: be good.
 170 2013-04-23 01:40:32 i2pRelay has joined
 171 2013-04-23 01:40:59 <saracen> Well, that github thread is depressing. saivann is always asking for input about site changes. This channel and the repo is really easy to find if they're interested in development :(
 172 2013-04-23 01:41:31 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: awww, but last time I uploaded random binaries to the computer science facebook group it was run by like 3 people.....
 173 2013-04-23 01:41:32 <gmaxwell> saivann: I'm sure we could promote some things better, but unfortunately the discussion isn't helping me figure out how.
 174 2013-04-23 01:41:49 <saivann> gmaxwell : promote some things better?
 175 2013-04-23 01:42:03 <gmaxwell> saivann: Make it easier for people to find out the right places to discuss things and get involved.
 176 2013-04-23 01:42:13 <saivann> Yes it's depressing. I've been working hard on this and took a lot of feedback, as usual.
 177 2013-04-23 01:42:33 <saracen> saivann, for what it's worth. I love you.
 178 2013-04-23 01:42:40 <gmaxwell> e.g. we should probably embed the freenode irc interface on the development page of bitcoin.org.
 179 2013-04-23 01:42:49 * gmaxwell makes a pull
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 182 2013-04-23 01:44:15 <saivann> gmaxwell : Uh, this website gets 20 000+ visitors a day. Are you prepared to take this load?
 183 2013-04-23 01:44:32 <saivann> saracen: :)
 184 2013-04-23 01:44:40 <gmaxwell> saivann: I'm reasonably confident that it won't be an issue.
 185 2013-04-23 01:45:05 <gmaxwell> only 20k visitors per day? ... thats less than I expected!
 186 2013-04-23 01:45:28 xenesis has quit (Quit: xenesis)
 187 2013-04-23 01:45:28 <saivann> gmaxwell : Only from Google (a right, Analytics is not setupped) :)
 188 2013-04-23 01:45:48 <saivann> We got 110 000+ visitors a day recently from Google, but that decreased a lot recently
 189 2013-04-23 01:46:50 Xqr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 190 2013-04-23 01:47:08 <saivann> I've noticed that many french medias used the french version. And with more and more languages over time, I think it's going to increase it's audience
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 201 2013-04-23 01:55:04 <thebadplus> http://stats.grok.se/en/latest90/Bitcoin
 202 2013-04-23 01:55:33 <thebadplus> that's what I use to get a sense of how much people are hearing about / responding to bitcoin
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 205 2013-04-23 01:56:13 <thebadplus> though in fairness, it's probably less informative than saivann's google analytics / we
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 209 2013-04-23 01:59:49 <gmaxwell> There: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/153
 210 2013-04-23 02:01:04 <gavinandresen> Holy guacamole that was painful… Successfully tested pull - sending comment to: https://api.github.com/repos/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2539/comments
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 227 2013-04-23 02:16:48 <saivann> gmaxwell : I'm testing on my mobile..
 228 2013-04-23 02:16:55 <GlitchNZ> Whats the standard approach to using bitcoin with something like java to manage user accounts...
 229 2013-04-23 02:17:18 <GlitchNZ> i.e. What is the best process of detecting incoming coins and assigning them to a user?
 230 2013-04-23 02:17:44 MobPhone has joined
 231 2013-04-23 02:17:45 <GlitchNZ> I don't mean using bitcoind accounts either - an account system managed independantly from bitcoind
 232 2013-04-23 02:18:10 <GlitchNZ> i.e. e-wallet
 233 2013-04-23 02:18:28 <gavinandresen> GlitchNZ: with Java?  You should use bitcoinj  https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/
 234 2013-04-23 02:18:49 test__ has joined
 235 2013-04-23 02:19:25 <GlitchNZ> gavin: I assumethat bitconJ has to run as a daemon?
 236 2013-04-23 02:19:52 <gavinandresen> bitcoinj is a library you can use to implement an e-wallet…
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 240 2013-04-23 02:21:15 <GlitchNZ> Just to clarify what I am doing, I amgoing to have a 'real time' service that I intend to connect to bitcoin, as such I will have a standalone java application providing the service, a bitcoin client (bitcoinJ/bitcoind etc) and a a database shared between them
 241 2013-04-23 02:21:41 <GlitchNZ> It would be useful if the thing that detects incoming transctions could push an event to the real-time service
 242 2013-04-23 02:21:53 <gavinandresen> GlitchNZ: probably easiest to get rid of the bitcoind and just have the real time service use bitcoinj
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 245 2013-04-23 02:22:38 <GlitchNZ> mmmk, I guess the only thing my service can do is poll then
 246 2013-04-23 02:23:11 <gavinandresen> ??? bitcoinj can connect to the bitcoin network and process transactions relevant transactions....
 247 2013-04-23 02:23:32 <grau> GlitchNZ: you get a message bus feed of validated transactions from bits of proof https://github.com/bitsofproof/supernode
 248 2013-04-23 02:24:07 <grau> gavinandresen: just for completeness.
 249 2013-04-23 02:24:10 treaki__ has joined
 250 2013-04-23 02:24:20 <gavinandresen> grau: I always forget bitsofproof is implemented in java....
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 252 2013-04-23 02:25:16 <GlitchNZ> actually the bitcoinj code does look pretty promising
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 256 2013-04-23 02:25:26 <gavinandresen> GlitchNZ: in any case, if your service is in Java, then using a Java implementation of bitcoin is probably the right thing to do
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 259 2013-04-23 02:27:21 <GlitchNZ> coincidently in this case I am using Java
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 262 2013-04-23 02:29:18 <grau> The validated transaction feed I mentioned is in form of protobuf messages and the message bus is using STOMP, so you may consume it with a lot of languages also e.g. python besides java
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 264 2013-04-23 02:30:10 <GlitchNZ> thanks grau, I think bitcoinJ is going to be easier for me now though
 265 2013-04-23 02:30:22 <GlitchNZ> Interesting line in their example program:
 266 2013-04-23 02:30:23 <GlitchNZ> Address from = input.getFromAddress();
 267 2013-04-23 02:31:14 nsillik has joined
 268 2013-04-23 02:31:15 <grau> What is input?
 269 2013-04-23 02:31:26 <GlitchNZ> its a transaction input
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 271 2013-04-23 02:31:41 <GlitchNZ> TransactionInput input = tx.getInputs().get(0);
 272 2013-04-23 02:31:41 <GlitchNZ>             Address from = input.getFromAddress();
 273 2013-04-23 02:31:49 <GlitchNZ> tx = Transaction
 274 2013-04-23 02:31:50 test__ has joined
 275 2013-04-23 02:31:51 <grau> I guessed. I would not use a from for any purpose
 276 2013-04-23 02:32:09 <GlitchNZ> It does seem that it should come with a big WARNING sign
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 278 2013-04-23 02:32:26 <grau> the transacion from does not tell enything really about the sender
 279 2013-04-23 02:33:04 <GlitchNZ> grau: I have been working in this area, I understand the huge number of caveats when it comes to working out 'from'
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 283 2013-04-23 02:33:44 <grau> ok, you might not need my hints, never mind
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 288 2013-04-23 02:39:28 <BlueMatt> in other news, pull-tester *finally* tests a large reorg that fails on 0.7
 289 2013-04-23 02:39:42 <BlueMatt> yay completing month-old todo list items
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 291 2013-04-23 02:40:17 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: including the 6-deep-with-max-txids?
 292 2013-04-23 02:40:29 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: what was the magic in getting it to fail? I know your initial attempt didn't work.
 293 2013-04-23 02:40:51 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: how about fixing pulltester so it merges BEFORE trying to build? :P
 294 2013-04-23 02:40:56 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: that was one block, I just fill 50 blocks with txn and then spend them, the reorg back over the whole set of like 80 blocks
 295 2013-04-23 02:42:06 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: doesnt it do that?
 296 2013-04-23 02:42:11 <BlueMatt> I know Ive gone back and forth on that
 297 2013-04-23 02:42:12 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: great. How long does this take? would it be unreasonable to stick in a 2000 block reorg?
 298 2013-04-23 02:42:18 <BlueMatt> (for various reasons)
 299 2013-04-23 02:42:33 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: really fast, but bitcoinj runs out of memory at like 100 blocks :(
 300 2013-04-23 02:42:44 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: apparently not - it's failing on a bugfix I sent recently because it's branched from a pre-leveldb commit
 301 2013-04-23 02:43:23 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: yep, the merge stuff is commented, dont remember why this time but Ill reset it
 302 2013-04-23 02:43:32 <BlueMatt> (again, I keep going back and forth for various individual pulls)
 303 2013-04-23 02:43:44 <gmaxwell> Realistically I'm only really concerned that we survive reorgs on the scale of 200 blocks— much beyond that and bitcoin is probably doomed... but I figured testing 10x required is probably prudent.
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 306 2013-04-23 02:44:31 <BlueMatt> agreed, Ill put decreasing bitcoinj's memory usage during huge reorgs on my todo list, expect lag of a few months :)
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 311 2013-04-23 02:44:48 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: ok, next round it will merge instead
 312 2013-04-23 02:44:49 <gmaxwell> (also, until we have a headers first sync it's possible that someone could create a really large diff=1 fork to stick nodes if they're unable to reorg thousands of blocks.
 313 2013-04-23 02:44:52 dawei101 has joined
 314 2013-04-23 02:44:54 <gmaxwell> )
 315 2013-04-23 02:45:31 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I wrote code for that...hey there is merging it into the library on my todo list
 316 2013-04-23 02:45:37 <BlueMatt> goddamn
 317 2013-04-23 02:45:52 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: want me to reset any commits?
 318 2013-04-23 02:45:52 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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 321 2013-04-23 02:47:12 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: or Ill just rewrite the comparison tool to use a disk-backed block store instead of memory
 322 2013-04-23 02:48:11 <grau> BlueMatt: are you using in memory derby?
 323 2013-04-23 02:48:15 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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 325 2013-04-23 02:48:27 <BlueMatt> no java.util.HashMap and some fancy thread-locals
 326 2013-04-23 02:48:30 test_____ has joined
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 328 2013-04-23 02:49:47 <grau> must use a lot then to exahust heap in just 100 blocks
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 330 2013-04-23 02:50:08 <BlueMatt> they are all filled with transactions until MAX_BLOCK_SIZE
 331 2013-04-23 02:50:40 <BlueMatt> (small txn, ie tens of thousands of txn per block)
 332 2013-04-23 02:50:52 test_____ has quit (Client Quit)
 333 2013-04-23 02:51:08 <grau> I see. I had similar problem until using derby in memory. Now I have an in memory leveldb (clone)
 334 2013-04-23 02:51:44 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: yeah.. 2541
 335 2013-04-23 02:51:57 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: Im lazy, commit sha?
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 338 2013-04-23 02:52:51 <Luke-Jr> 1ee947d
 339 2013-04-23 02:53:13 <BlueMatt> awww, who was on jenkins and used vi?
 340 2013-04-23 02:53:38 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: its retesting
 341 2013-04-23 02:54:01 RBecker is now known as rbecker
 342 2013-04-23 02:54:05 <Luke-Jr> ty
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 347 2013-04-23 02:58:56 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I used vi
 348 2013-04-23 02:59:05 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: did that break something?
 349 2013-04-23 02:59:07 <BlueMatt> I assume so
 350 2013-04-23 02:59:23 <BlueMatt> no, but I'm the only person in the world who uses nano, so I know it wasnt me :P
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 354 2013-04-23 03:00:20 <gavinandresen> (I normally only use vi when I can't use emacs....)
 355 2013-04-23 03:00:48 i2pRelay has joined
 356 2013-04-23 03:01:23 <GlitchNZ> BlueMatt: I use nano too!
 357 2013-04-23 03:01:28 <GlitchNZ> we are not alone!!!!
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 359 2013-04-23 03:01:53 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: it would be nice if pull-tester could use the gitian scripts to build, have you thought about that at all?
 360 2013-04-23 03:01:54 Happzz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 362 2013-04-23 03:02:16 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: yes, but format differences mean code-writing instead of just ./build.sh...
 363 2013-04-23 03:02:18 bitit has joined
 364 2013-04-23 03:02:22 <GlitchNZ> nano: a text editor, that does text editing - revolutionary software, can't wait till vi and emacs catch up
 365 2013-04-23 03:02:35 <GlitchNZ> ;P
 366 2013-04-23 03:03:07 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: Ill probably do it eventually, but for now its way more effort to do so
 367 2013-04-23 03:03:20 <BlueMatt> GlitchNZ: heh, yes!
 368 2013-04-23 03:04:36 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I was thinking: actually run a gitian build to produce executables, and then use those executables to run tests / etc.  Agreed it is not high priority right now, but long-term I think that would be spiffy (we'd need to pull the mine-at-less-than-one-difficulty change into core code, but we should probably do that anyway)
 369 2013-04-23 03:05:08 johnsoft has joined
 370 2013-04-23 03:05:49 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: I believe you can put your own code in gitian to build without pushing it anywhere
 371 2013-04-23 03:05:55 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: I know sipa does stuff that way...
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 375 2013-04-23 03:06:58 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: also on the todo list is to make sure the builds are the same with kvm vs lxc, which I believe is not currently true
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 377 2013-04-23 03:07:28 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I've been very happy with gitian in a VirtualBox, works nicely
 378 2013-04-23 03:07:42 <BlueMatt> ooh, it does virtualbox now too?
 379 2013-04-23 03:07:43 <BlueMatt> damn
 380 2013-04-23 03:07:57 <gavinandresen> yes, I submitted patches with virtualbox support
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 383 2013-04-23 03:08:24 <BlueMatt> so it matches lxc? what about kvm?
 384 2013-04-23 03:08:35 <gavinandresen> virtualbox matches kvm
 385 2013-04-23 03:08:44 <gavinandresen> I haven't tried lxc for a while
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 399 2013-04-23 03:17:44 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: wrt the pulltester's difficulty, perhaps it would be possible to instead make it work by scaling the target instead of changing the limit?
 400 2013-04-23 03:17:53 <gmaxwell> that would let the pulltester test the retargeting rules.
 401 2013-04-23 03:18:27 <BlueMatt> it does cpu mining in JAVA...running with default mindiff would probably still kill
 402 2013-04-23 03:19:18 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I mean change the definition of what difficulty means.
 403 2013-04-23 03:19:19 <BlueMatt> that said, doing retarget tests would ofcourse be lovely
 404 2013-04-23 03:19:35 ColinT has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 405 2013-04-23 03:19:45 <gmaxwell> so that e.g. all sha256 values meet 1, half of them meet 2...
 406 2013-04-23 03:20:11 paybitcoin has joined
 407 2013-04-23 03:20:15 <BlueMatt> oh....probably easier to fudge timestamps and do retargeting
 408 2013-04-23 03:20:30 <BlueMatt> (plus less bitcoind/other client code modifications is always better)
 409 2013-04-23 03:20:35 <gmaxwell> but you won't be able to continue to mine once it retargets. :)
 410 2013-04-23 03:20:51 <BlueMatt> well if you just fudge the timestamps then it can retarget really low
 411 2013-04-23 03:20:53 <gmaxwell> at least not unless you switch to precomputed nonces (which perhaps you should do ultimately)
 412 2013-04-23 03:21:06 <gmaxwell> hm.
 413 2013-04-23 03:21:12 <BlueMatt> meh, non-static chain has saved us once
 414 2013-04-23 03:21:29 paybitcoin2 has joined
 415 2013-04-23 03:21:32 <gmaxwell> I know.
 416 2013-04-23 03:22:32 <gmaxwell> heh. "pulltester needs a BFL jalapeno"
 417 2013-04-23 03:22:36 paybitcoin1 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 418 2013-04-23 03:22:54 <BlueMatt> yes, can we get asics donated?
 419 2013-04-23 03:23:39 <BlueMatt> also, why is bitcoinfoundation not running 100 asics out of a basement somewhere?
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 424 2013-04-23 03:27:19 <gmaxwell> It supposedly has an avalon, though luke (and conman, I think) have had no luck getting access to it for miner software development.
 425 2013-04-23 03:28:29 <BlueMatt> hmm, well that sounds like an issue....
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 438 2013-04-23 03:35:11 <Steve132> what happens if you were to construct a transaction that spent more than you had?
 439 2013-04-23 03:35:14 <Steve132> is that even possible?
 440 2013-04-23 03:36:30 <gmaxwell> Steve132: such a transaction is just trivially invalid, anything can easily see that the outputs are greater than the inputs.
 441 2013-04-23 03:36:39 whiterabbit has joined
 442 2013-04-23 03:36:51 <Steve132> so, being an invalid transaction, it would be rejected?
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 444 2013-04-23 03:38:02 <BlueMatt> nope, bitcoin definitely accepts those transactions, its really just a racket for developers to steal infinite moneys!!!1one
 445 2013-04-23 03:38:12 <gmaxwell> Steve132: correct.
 446 2013-04-23 03:38:13 <BlueMatt> but, yes, it would be rejected
 447 2013-04-23 03:38:29 <Steve132> ok.
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 454 2013-04-23 03:41:04 <thebadplus> Steve132: In case you were wondering, individual accounts can be negative
 455 2013-04-23 03:41:09 robbak_ has joined
 456 2013-04-23 03:41:12 <thebadplus> within a wallet
 457 2013-04-23 03:41:25 <Steve132> can you clarify that a little?
 458 2013-04-23 03:41:30 <Steve132> I don't see how thats possible
 459 2013-04-23 03:41:35 <Steve132> given the above
 460 2013-04-23 03:41:45 <thebadplus> steve132: so "accounts"
 461 2013-04-23 03:41:51 <thebadplus> are really just a made up thing
 462 2013-04-23 03:41:57 <thebadplus> in bitcoin wallets
 463 2013-04-23 03:42:16 <thebadplus> so if you are moving money from one account to another within your wallet
 464 2013-04-23 03:42:28 <thebadplus> one account can appear negative, but
 465 2013-04-23 03:42:38 <thebadplus> the wallet's value is remaining constant
 466 2013-04-23 03:42:53 <thebadplus> and nothing is going out on the network
 467 2013-04-23 03:43:06 panzerfaust has joined
 468 2013-04-23 03:43:17 <saracen> I think this just confused matters, as it has nothing to do with transactions in the sense I imagine Steve132 was talking about.
 469 2013-04-23 03:43:21 Happzz has joined
 470 2013-04-23 03:43:46 <Steve132> O meant addresses
 471 2013-04-23 03:43:52 <Steve132> *I
 472 2013-04-23 03:44:05 <thebadplus> sorry, I was guessing that he was under the impression that negative transactions were possible after working with the bitcoin api
 473 2013-04-23 03:44:13 <thebadplus> which is a confusion i had at first
 474 2013-04-23 03:45:46 ColinT has joined
 475 2013-04-23 03:46:09 <Steve132> So, I'm thinking about a protocol with a simplified wallet with only one address
 476 2013-04-23 03:47:06 <Steve132> if you aren't exactly aware of your balance, and you send more than you have...whats the best thing to do from a user-interface perspective?  Silently send everything you DO have
 477 2013-04-23 03:47:11 panzer has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 478 2013-04-23 03:47:12 <Steve132> or wait
 479 2013-04-23 03:47:20 <Steve132> like, force the user to wait for a confirm
 480 2013-04-23 03:47:30 <gmaxwell> it's not possible to even form a transaction if you don't know how much coin you have.
 481 2013-04-23 03:47:34 <Steve132> er...the question doesn't make a lot a sense
 482 2013-04-23 03:47:38 <Steve132> I know
 483 2013-04-23 03:47:44 <Steve132> yeah, forget that
 484 2013-04-23 03:47:48 <gmaxwell> You must know the payments to you to make a transaction. (see bitcoin.pdf's first illustration)
 485 2013-04-23 03:47:49 <thebadplus> you can't send more than you have
 486 2013-04-23 03:48:07 <gmaxwell> Plus, a wallet with one address is really bad for privacy/security.
 487 2013-04-23 03:48:20 <Steve132> gmaxwell: Actually, it would be one address that cycles
 488 2013-04-23 03:48:22 <Steve132> on each send
 489 2013-04-23 03:48:30 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 491 2013-04-23 03:49:21 <BlueMatt> wait, when did we get a new splash screen?
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 494 2013-04-23 03:50:13 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: you missed that pull request?
 495 2013-04-23 03:50:16 <gmaxwell> I think it's pretty awesome.
 496 2013-04-23 03:50:22 <gmaxwell> Best looking part of the GUI by far now.
 497 2013-04-23 03:50:28 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I miss every pull request these days :(
 498 2013-04-23 03:50:32 <BlueMatt> but, yes, it does look nice
 499 2013-04-23 03:50:51 <gmaxwell> I wish tcatm would have finished his gui reworking work before.
 500 2013-04-23 03:51:05 <BlueMatt> yea, that looked nice
 501 2013-04-23 03:51:19 ColinT has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 502 2013-04-23 03:52:09 <BlueMatt> wtf? why is my laptop banned from my seednode?
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 513 2013-04-23 03:59:38 <helo> hmm... went from 79 connections to 33 connections in about 4 hours. spv nodes not in use during off-peak hours?
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 524 2013-04-23 04:06:41 <BlueMatt> helo: I just noticed my seednode has relatively low connection count
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 532 2013-04-23 04:09:42 <BlueMatt> heh, well if I run the 240-seconds-on-dnsseed test, I still get the usual few hundred peers
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 554 2013-04-23 04:33:26 <gmaxwell> Oh, mildly interesting though for when we want to create big press hoopla for no important reason:   Let function L(x)=Lpri take secret data x and determinstically make a lamport private key out of it via some cryptographic hash. LP(Lpri)=Lpub makes a lamport public key from the private key.
 555 2013-04-23 04:34:28 da2ce7 has joined
 556 2013-04-23 04:34:32 <gmaxwell> then whenever you generate an address you feed the ECDSA public key to LP(L()) and put the result inside a P2SH script that uses a currently not existing validate lamport signature op ... followed by a regular checksig.
 557 2013-04-23 04:35:17 <gmaxwell> This means that, assuming the lamport valudation op is implemented you could redeem the transaction either via ecdsa or the related lamport key.
 558 2013-04-23 04:35:51 <gmaxwell> We can then say Bitcoin is secure against quantum computers... but without actually taking the cost of anyone actually using lamport signatures before QC's exist.
 559 2013-04-23 04:36:17 jaequery has joined
 560 2013-04-23 04:36:20 <gmaxwell> (once QC's exist you'd just stop signing things using ECDSA, you'd sign with the lamport keys... and all of your addresses would already be setup for it)
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 566 2013-04-23 04:39:08 <Luke-Jr> nice
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 571 2013-04-23 04:39:58 <gmaxwell> (well, er, if you do it _exactly_ as I said it's insecure, since the pubkey gets disclosed during normal spends... but at least that general idea)
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 575 2013-04-23 04:40:56 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: once it's spent, it's spent :P
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 579 2013-04-23 04:41:15 <Luke-Jr> lamport sigs would break with more than 1 use of an address anyway, right?
 580 2013-04-23 04:41:16 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
 581 2013-04-23 04:41:25 <jgarzik> so
 582 2013-04-23 04:41:28 <jgarzik> what exploded this weekend?
 583 2013-04-23 04:41:35 <jgarzik> if anything
 584 2013-04-23 04:41:39 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: do you really want to know?
 585 2013-04-23 04:41:55 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: but of course :)
 586 2013-04-23 04:42:20 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: Matonis wrote up on Forbes about the Press Center and him not being on it <.<
 587 2013-04-23 04:44:16 * copumpkin sighs
 588 2013-04-23 04:44:21 <diki> can Bitcoin be compiled with MSVC compiler or will it require code changes?
 589 2013-04-23 04:44:35 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: hehe, yeah, rough life being an anti-law person
 590 2013-04-23 04:44:39 <jgarzik> with a big microphone
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 594 2013-04-23 04:45:38 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yea, but my idea above is to basically have the ability to use lamport there but dormant unless needed. So you wouldn't want to take the single use restriction unless you actually switched.
 595 2013-04-23 04:46:47 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: impact, other than being linked on reddit?
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 597 2013-04-23 04:47:30 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: trolls learning github
 598 2013-04-23 04:48:16 <jgarzik> indeed
 599 2013-04-23 04:48:16 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: doesn't lamport use really long keys?
 600 2013-04-23 04:48:29 <etotheipi_> is there any QC-resistant algo that doesn't?
 601 2013-04-23 04:48:57 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: 16kbytes for 256 bit (128 bit against QC) security.
 602 2013-04-23 04:49:01 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: gmaxwell's point is that you wouldn't need to put anything for lamport in the blockchain while it's still possible should it be needed later
 603 2013-04-23 04:49:19 <gmaxwell> Which is horiffic, but better than being broken.  On the plus side its really super fast to validate.
 604 2013-04-23 04:49:50 <gmaxwell> but yea, if that were done we'd actually make lamport signatures non-standard.
 605 2013-04-23 04:49:52 <Diablo-D3> so hrm
 606 2013-04-23 04:50:09 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: so in a crisis, we'd just stop using the blockchain at some predefined block number, and let people validate currency using the Lamport sigs after we sort out how to proceed
 607 2013-04-23 04:50:11 * Diablo-D3 got interviewed by semiaccurate
 608 2013-04-23 04:50:12 <gmaxwell> But IFF ECDSA looked threatened we'd turn off that restriction and people could switch to lamport signing.
 609 2013-04-23 04:50:33 <gmaxwell> we don't even have to implement the validation up front.
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 615 2013-04-23 04:54:06 <gmaxwell> Basically— uncertanty about QC's sometimes undermines confidence in Bitcoin (it's not clear to me how much).  Lamport solves that, but the enormous signatures are too high a cost unless large QC's become real. There is some risk created by the transition. E.g. what happens if tomorrow out of the blue someone starts shipping large QC's that can break ECDSA for $10.
 616 2013-04-23 04:54:48 <gmaxwell> So my point is that we can prime the system for a switch at low cost, by having addresses which can be used either way.
 617 2013-04-23 04:54:49 AlbertTuring has joined
 618 2013-04-23 04:55:25 <gmaxwell> Sadily it would still increase their scriptsig size, so perhaps too costly for marketing / precaution.
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 620 2013-04-23 04:55:57 <Luke-Jr> hmm
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 622 2013-04-23 04:56:28 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: what would stop us from doing a BIP16-alike special-casing in the event of an emergency?
 623 2013-04-23 04:56:30 <jgarzik> heh
 624 2013-04-23 04:56:39 <Luke-Jr> no prep needed
 625 2013-04-23 04:56:44 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: needing to have the correct lamport public key.
 626 2013-04-23 04:56:55 <jgarzik> recommend leaving bitcoin.org pull req #152 open, as a troll dumping ground
 627 2013-04-23 04:57:07 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: "corpseflower pull"
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 636 2013-04-23 05:01:45 <jgarzik> heh
 637 2013-04-23 05:01:52 <jgarzik> bitcoin appearing in patents, https://www.google.com/?tbm=pts#hl=en&tbm=pts&sclient=psy-ab&q=%22bitcoin%22+-%22bit+coin%22&oq=%22bitcoin%22+-%22bit+coin%22&gs_l=hp.3...30487.38337.2.38569.14.14.0.0.0.0.717.1471.13j6-1.14.0...0.0...1c.1.9.psy-ab.oDf3XihKExM&pbx=1&fp=1&biw=784&bih=771&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&cad=b
 638 2013-04-23 05:01:58 <jgarzik> sad but inevitable
 639 2013-04-23 05:02:07 <jgarzik> easy to play 'find the prior art'
 640 2013-04-23 05:02:44 <jgarzik> "Systems and methods to process online monetary payments dependent on conditional triggers involving future events"
 641 2013-04-23 05:02:57 <Luke-Jr> hmm, the blockchain concept is probably one of very few things that could arguably be fairly patented
 642 2013-04-23 05:02:59 <jgarzik> Bets of Bitcoin not enough, I guess
 643 2013-04-23 05:03:00 <Luke-Jr> (by Satoshi ofc)
 644 2013-04-23 05:03:10 <gmaxwell> Well, not any more it can't be. :)
 645 2013-04-23 05:03:11 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: not anymore
 646 2013-04-23 05:03:18 <Luke-Jr> have been*
 647 2013-04-23 05:03:29 gribble has quit (Excess Flood)
 648 2013-04-23 05:03:29 * jgarzik is tempted to file prior art on some of these
 649 2013-04-23 05:03:41 <Luke-Jr> can you do that without a lawsuit?
 650 2013-04-23 05:03:52 <jgarzik> "The present invention is a system to process online monetary payments between end-users whose payments are dependent on conditional triggers involving future events, such as winning bids/offers in an auction or a trading exchange. In the system, bids and offers are backed by actual funds which are held in reserve, enabling instantaneous payments upon the close of an event. The system contains methods to be included in
 651 2013-04-23 05:03:52 <jgarzik> online auction and trading exchange software applications."
 652 2013-04-23 05:03:54 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: yes
 653 2013-04-23 05:03:56 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: basically here is my current QC emergency plan:  Alert and tell everyone to stop making transactions.  Then deploy lamport addresses (hopefully some altcoin has this first). Then allow transactions to be relayed which omit their ECC pubkey and pay to lamport addresses, with some kinda POW to prevent flooding... and a network rule that discourages blocks that mine transactions which didn't first get preammounced in the signature ...
 654 2013-04-23 05:04:02 <gmaxwell> ... removed form. Really ugly.
 655 2013-04-23 05:05:01 <Luke-Jr> better than my plan
 656 2013-04-23 05:05:24 <Luke-Jr> (sell all ASAP and panic)
 657 2013-04-23 05:05:25 <Luke-Jr> :p
 658 2013-04-23 05:06:28 <gmaxwell> But if there was already lamport pubkeys in p2sh addresses, the transition just becomes  "make lamport standard" "tell all clients to sign with their lamport key instead".
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 665 2013-04-23 05:08:52 <shesek> if I see a transaction with some address in one of its inputs, can I be certain the person who made that transaction owns that address?
 666 2013-04-23 05:09:08 <Luke-Jr> shesek: no
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 669 2013-04-23 05:09:40 <Luke-Jr> shesek: also, inputs don't contain addresses. the address is part of a past/historical transaction that happened to be associated with the coin
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 679 2013-04-23 05:12:47 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, huh? i thought inputs had the script sig that allows the referred outputs to be spent?
 680 2013-04-23 05:12:50 <Luke-Jr> shesek: if you need a return address, I believe the new payment protocol supports getting one
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 682 2013-04-23 05:13:09 <shesek> wouldn't you need the private key of the last address in the transaction history in order to transfer it elsewhere?
 683 2013-04-23 05:13:11 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: yes, but the address is a hash of the public key - that isn't contained in the sig
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 685 2013-04-23 05:13:27 <Luke-Jr> shesek: no, you just need the transaction to be signed by it
 686 2013-04-23 05:13:39 <shesek> I don't need a return address, its more of a theoretical question
 687 2013-04-23 05:13:53 <Luke-Jr> shesek: it's pretty common for the signer to be different than the spender
 688 2013-04-23 05:14:04 <Luke-Jr> and will likely only become more common in the future
 689 2013-04-23 05:14:21 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, i'm confused about the new payment protocol.
 690 2013-04-23 05:14:46 <shesek> you mean like in a web service that manages online wallets?
 691 2013-04-23 05:14:56 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, it says that a request for a script is sent by the receiver. but i thought pay to script HASH was the new deal.
 692 2013-04-23 05:15:05 <Luke-Jr> shesek: that is one case, yes
 693 2013-04-23 05:15:10 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: semiaccurate interviewed me about GPU compute issues including bitcoin. the interview isnt online yet.
 694 2013-04-23 05:16:06 <shesek> but still, whoever is authenticating the transaction most know the private key of the last address in the transaction history?
 695 2013-04-23 05:16:06 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: yes, usually you'll get a P2SH script back
 696 2013-04-23 05:16:06 <shesek> even if its not the actual user that made the payment
 697 2013-04-23 05:16:06 <Luke-Jr> shesek: correct
 698 2013-04-23 05:16:06 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, huh? but P2SH is a hash of a script, not a script itself?
 699 2013-04-23 05:16:09 <Luke-Jr> shesek: note there may be multiple independent parties signing it too
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 701 2013-04-23 05:16:20 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: there is a script, which says "this is P2SH"
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 703 2013-04-23 05:16:43 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, well, that's just downright confusing
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 705 2013-04-23 05:17:16 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, i thought the whole point was the receiver doesn't care about the script and doesn't need to know the script
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 707 2013-04-23 05:17:36 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: correct - the real script may be much longer and more confusing
 708 2013-04-23 05:17:39 <shesek> Luke-Jr, in case of a payment that was previously sent to multiple addresses (like for escrow)?
 709 2013-04-23 05:17:52 <Luke-Jr> for example "the transaction must be signed by 3 of these 5 keys: A B C D E"
 710 2013-04-23 05:18:00 <Luke-Jr> encoding that as an address would be VERY long
 711 2013-04-23 05:18:13 <Luke-Jr> shesek: yes, or even without that
 712 2013-04-23 05:18:21 <Luke-Jr> shesek: for example, my Ctransaction writeup
 713 2013-04-23 05:18:36 * shesek is googling
 714 2013-04-23 05:18:46 <Luke-Jr> https://gist.github.com/luke-jr/5409899
 715 2013-04-23 05:19:06 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, so why isn't PSH made the only way? what disadvantage would there be if the sender had to keep track of the script entirely?
 716 2013-04-23 05:19:56 <Impaler> escrow would be a really great feature to have
 717 2013-04-23 05:19:58 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: BIP 18 is "make non-P2SH deprecated"
 718 2013-04-23 05:20:22 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: the disadvantage is then the sender needs to sort out transaction fees, and has to use an unmanagably long address (before payment protocol)
 719 2013-04-23 05:20:23 <Impaler> even if it was just a simple version
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 722 2013-04-23 05:21:51 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, huh? i thought PSH had a fixed length script of 20 bytes?
 723 2013-04-23 05:22:10 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: P2SH does; you asked "what disadvantage would there be if the sender had to keep track of the script entirely?" which means non-P2SH
 724 2013-04-23 05:22:28 <amiller> can i put P2SH in coinbase transactions or would that be weird
 725 2013-04-23 05:22:29 <shesek> Luke-Jr, what are combined transactions for? I didn't really understand what they actually do
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 728 2013-04-23 05:22:50 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, oh, sorry, i was mistaken. i meant: what disadvantage would there be if the receiver had to keep track of the script.
 729 2013-04-23 05:22:52 <Luke-Jr> amiller: you can
 730 2013-04-23 05:23:12 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: he does have to
 731 2013-04-23 05:23:21 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: but it's impossible to send to a script you don't know..
 732 2013-04-23 05:23:44 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, right. so PSH puts the burden of the tx fees where they belong.
 733 2013-04-23 05:23:54 <Luke-Jr> right
 734 2013-04-23 05:23:57 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, as the sender, i don't give a damn about the script.
 735 2013-04-23 05:24:06 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: hence P2SH
 736 2013-04-23 05:24:31 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, any idea when BIP 18 is going into effect?
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 740 2013-04-23 05:24:56 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: when people make it effective
 741 2013-04-23 05:25:00 <Luke-Jr> ie, stop using non-P2SH
 742 2013-04-23 05:25:09 <Luke-Jr> (there's no push to rush this)
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 750 2013-04-23 05:27:44 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, i'm thinking about writing a BIP that has a formula for adding tx fees for scripts based on computational complexity. as part of this BIP, i will propose a computational complexity analyzer for the scripts whose output value will be plugged into the formula. this is to insure the network doesn't get flooded with complex scripts that bog down clients and servers.
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 752 2013-04-23 05:28:21 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: that's not too bad of an idea
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 754 2013-04-23 05:28:45 <Luke-Jr> just be sure to factor in the current algo
 755 2013-04-23 05:28:55 <Luke-Jr> also, not sure this is BIP material - fees are purely miner fiat
 756 2013-04-23 05:29:11 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, which current algo?
 757 2013-04-23 05:29:14 <Luke-Jr> otoh, can't hurt
 758 2013-04-23 05:29:22 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: data size, amounts, etc
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 760 2013-04-23 05:29:41 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, oh for sure. this fee would be in addition to the fee for byte size.
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 762 2013-04-23 05:29:56 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: maybe you can close that outstanding CVE ;)
 763 2013-04-23 05:29:59 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, i thought it odd that no one considered computational complexity cost of the scripts.
 764 2013-04-23 05:30:22 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/CVEs#CVE-2013-2292
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 767 2013-04-23 05:30:59 <Luke-Jr> basically the only thing standing between that being used to shutdown the bitcoin network is miners at the moment
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 770 2013-04-23 05:32:05 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, bingo... like i said, we need the complexity analyzer.
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 772 2013-04-23 05:33:17 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, what should the "ops to BTC" ratio be?
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 774 2013-04-23 05:33:46 <dissipate> .0001 BTC per op?
 775 2013-04-23 05:34:02 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: not all ops are equal!
 776 2013-04-23 05:34:27 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: I was thinking something along the lines of an actual CPU time measurement in the validation
 777 2013-04-23 05:34:29 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, well, doesn't need to be exact. right?
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 781 2013-04-23 05:34:43 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, but different CPUs...
 782 2013-04-23 05:34:44 <Luke-Jr> after 100ms, abort the verify and discard it
 783 2013-04-23 05:34:48 <Luke-Jr> yes, different CPUs.
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 785 2013-04-23 05:34:55 <Luke-Jr> blocks are valid regardless of fees anyway
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 787 2013-04-23 05:35:12 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, number of operations should be sufficient
 788 2013-04-23 05:35:20 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: it won't scale.
 789 2013-04-23 05:35:31 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, what do you mean?
 790 2013-04-23 05:35:35 joe2 has joined
 791 2013-04-23 05:35:39 <Luke-Jr> CPU time automatically scales as CPUs improve
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 793 2013-04-23 05:36:21 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, yep, that is an issue. in any event, we need the complexity analyzer first, then we can work out issues with the fee formula.
 794 2013-04-23 05:36:41 <Luke-Jr> probably most OS have a way to read CPU time spent
 795 2013-04-23 05:37:08 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, but the miners will run a majorly underclocked CPU to rack up the fees
 796 2013-04-23 05:37:34 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: if miners want to rack up the fees, they will just charge a higher fee per kB or fee per CPU unit
 797 2013-04-23 05:37:49 <Luke-Jr> you cannot force miners to follow any rules
 798 2013-04-23 05:37:54 <Luke-Jr> (of this sort)
 799 2013-04-23 05:38:03 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, true. but let's focus on the complexity analyzer.
 800 2013-04-23 05:38:04 <Belxjander> Hello....
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 802 2013-04-23 05:38:32 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, how can we write a complexity analyzer that gives an accurate 'score' of the complexity of a script?
 803 2013-04-23 05:38:34 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: it'd have been fairly easy before sipa's multithreading code ☺
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 805 2013-04-23 05:39:26 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: pthread_getcpuclockid or http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms683237(VS.85).aspx
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 807 2013-04-23 05:39:40 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, do we give weights to all the OPs and then just add them up?
 808 2013-04-23 05:40:21 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, forget about CPUs. i'm talking about the raw theoretical complexity
 809 2013-04-23 05:40:42 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: there is no way to measure that. x86 is not MIPS is not ARM is not Itanium.
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 811 2013-04-23 05:41:18 <Habbie> i just want to point out that the Halting problem says that you can't say definitive things about a program without running it
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 813 2013-04-23 05:41:24 <Habbie> so don't get too carried away
 814 2013-04-23 05:41:38 <Luke-Jr> Habbie: ☺
 815 2013-04-23 05:41:46 <dissipate> Habbie, you are forgetting that the script is not turing complete.
 816 2013-04-23 05:42:01 <Habbie> dissipate, well, i hoped you would say something like that
 817 2013-04-23 05:42:03 <dissipate> Habbie, gotcha!
 818 2013-04-23 05:42:41 <Luke-Jr> lol
 819 2013-04-23 05:42:41 <Habbie> i'm not familiar with current bitcoin scripting; just wanted to make sure you guys don't try to fully solve one of the unsolved problems in CS ;)
 820 2013-04-23 05:43:35 <Belxjander> Habbie such as?
 821 2013-04-23 05:43:42 <dissipate> Habbie, i was waiting for someone to say that. :D  but really, a complexity analyzer does exist for this script language. i don't have the formal proof of that, but it is evident.
 822 2013-04-23 05:43:50 <Habbie> dissipate, good enough i bet
 823 2013-04-23 05:44:04 <EvilPete> CWalletTx::GetAmounts: Unknown transaction type found, txid f072fcac39ca76a0b7d7b104ad37e20f38002c027e356d901661073c955134a6  (p2pool payout tx result)
 824 2013-04-23 05:44:06 <Habbie> dissipate, all you need is some rough consensus between bitcoin-qt and the miners, right
 825 2013-04-23 05:44:07 <copumpkin> not sure I'd say it's unsolved as much as paradoxical
 826 2013-04-23 05:44:11 <Habbie> Belxjander, what's the question?
 827 2013-04-23 05:44:13 <dissipate> Habbie, it's not that it is unsolved. it is not solvable.
 828 2013-04-23 05:44:15 <Habbie> copumpkin, yes, unsolvable
 829 2013-04-23 05:44:34 <copumpkin> I think most people here are more than aware of basic CS results :)
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 831 2013-04-23 05:44:37 <Luke-Jr> EvilPete: yes, that's the p2pool spam output, normal
 832 2013-04-23 05:44:39 <Habbie> copumpkin, i bet
 833 2013-04-23 05:44:55 <dissipate> copumpkin, don't all non-turing complete languages need to come with their own complexity analyzer? it should go without saying.
 834 2013-04-23 05:45:04 <copumpkin> totally
 835 2013-04-23 05:45:15 <copumpkin> I know my language of choice actively disallows non-terminating programs
 836 2013-04-23 05:45:19 <copumpkin> it colors them pink
 837 2013-04-23 05:45:22 <copumpkin> (and a few more)
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 840 2013-04-23 05:45:45 <dissipate> copumpkin, so what do you say about writing a complexity analyzer for bitcoin script?
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 842 2013-04-23 05:46:42 <copumpkin> sounds like a lot of work :) automated reasoning is hard
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 844 2013-04-23 05:47:00 <copumpkin> I started building a model of it in Agda at some point but lost interest
 845 2013-04-23 05:47:06 <copumpkin> it's not very elegant :/
 846 2013-04-23 05:47:22 <Belxjander> Dissipate any known fragments with fixed difficulties?
 847 2013-04-23 05:47:45 <dissipate> copumpkin, i see. interesting.
 848 2013-04-23 05:47:49 <Belxjander> Low hanging fruit and whatnot
 849 2013-04-23 05:48:09 <dissipate> Belxjander, sure. start with identifying the complexity of each OP by itself.
 850 2013-04-23 05:48:56 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: you realize bitcoind already has a complexity analyzer? :p
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 852 2013-04-23 05:49:01 <Belxjander> Dissipate then equate out as a modified interpreter or assembly processor?
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 854 2013-04-23 05:49:44 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, i didn't see one. what command?
 855 2013-04-23 05:49:52 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: it's not JSON-RPC accessible
 856 2013-04-23 05:50:03 <dissipate> sounds like B.S.
 857 2013-04-23 05:50:27 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: it counts OP_CHECKSIG as 1, OP_CHECKMULTISIG as 20 unless it is immediately preceded by an OP_1-OP_19, and everything else as 0
 858 2013-04-23 05:50:30 <Luke-Jr> ☺
 859 2013-04-23 05:51:01 <dissipate> sounds like a start!
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 861 2013-04-23 05:51:08 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: it's used for hard block limits
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 863 2013-04-23 05:51:16 <Luke-Jr> IIRC 20k total per block
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 865 2013-04-23 05:51:29 <Luke-Jr> so beware just changing it as-is - you'll hardfork ;)
 866 2013-04-23 05:53:13 <dissipate> copumpkin, what happens when the complexity analyzer is more complex than the language being analyzed?
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 872 2013-04-23 05:53:50 <dissipate> copumpkin, on any given script the complexity analyzer requires more operations than just running the script?
 873 2013-04-23 05:54:25 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: then you get to write a complexity analyzer analyzer
 874 2013-04-23 05:54:30 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, well, this would be independent of bitcoind. it could be a completely independent program outside of the bitcoin source.
 875 2013-04-23 05:54:46 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, :(
 876 2013-04-23 05:54:51 <Luke-Jr> hehehe
 877 2013-04-23 05:55:15 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, it would defeat the purpose of the complexity analyzer. since you could just come up with a script that makes the complexity analyzer itself go crazy!
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 879 2013-04-23 05:56:41 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: IMO, your refusal to use actual CPU time already defeats the purpose ;)
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 882 2013-04-23 05:57:34 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, could go that route. but can't use it for minimum fees.
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 884 2013-04-23 05:57:50 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: sure can
 885 2013-04-23 05:57:57 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, if you go by CPU time, the miner would have had to already run the script!
 886 2013-04-23 05:58:04 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: that's ok
 887 2013-04-23 05:58:15 <dissipate> we are trying to prevent the spammy tx in the first place
 888 2013-04-23 05:58:18 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: the important part is to abort if it takes too long ☺
 889 2013-04-23 05:58:37 <Luke-Jr> maybe you're after a different problem
 890 2013-04-23 05:58:51 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, the miner could do that on their own, no protocol changes needed.
 891 2013-04-23 05:59:00 <Luke-Jr> dissipate: exactly
 892 2013-04-23 05:59:11 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, they just reject any script that takes more than X milliseconds to run
 893 2013-04-23 05:59:22 <Luke-Jr> the code for it is missing ;)
 894 2013-04-23 05:59:39 <dissipate> Luke-Jr, well, they can add that to their miner toolkit
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 917 2013-04-23 06:28:42 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: pulltester still broken, out of memory this time
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 954 2013-04-23 07:04:38 <tgs3> the things that is hashed in sha256(sha256(x)) < target,  is data described in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm right?
 955 2013-04-23 07:05:09 <tgs3> so the inner hash is hashing 256+256+32+... = around 550 bit?  and the outer hashes 256 bit?
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 992 2013-04-23 07:36:03 <Luke-Jr> tgs3: 640-bit and 256-bit
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 997 2013-04-23 07:40:57 <Luke-Jr> [Wednesday, April 17, 2013] [10:37:48 PM] <HM2> Bitcoin miners are getting desperate ;)  <gmaxwell> presumably thats not a miner— it'll end up on some review site or something.
 998 2013-04-23 07:41:08 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: HM2 was right… [07:02:08] <capa>  hi I'm mining on eligus with 7990's & bfgminer, i collected a core dump last night GMT  interested?
 999 2013-04-23 07:41:19 <Luke-Jr> :p
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1079 2013-04-23 08:46:49 <vinne81away> If somebody could help me with a small question: in a transaction, in scriptPubKey, the <pubKeyHash> would be the same as the bitcoin address, but how do convert this? Is it just another format?
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1082 2013-04-23 08:48:22 <jaakkos> vinne81: it's the whole output script
1083 2013-04-23 08:49:01 <jaakkos> vinne81: with default structure, and the bitcoin address there in the middle
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1085 2013-04-23 08:49:27 <vinne81> yeah the bitcoin address in the middle, but it's not in a typical format like you'd see in your wallet
1086 2013-04-23 08:49:41 <vinne81> or am I totally getting this wrong :)
1087 2013-04-23 08:50:17 <vinne81> From what I have read everywhere, the middle is the address of the receiver, and the rest is the validation that that receiver should do to redeem the coins
1088 2013-04-23 08:50:47 <jaakkos> the receiver needs to give input to satisfy the script
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1091 2013-04-23 08:51:39 <jaakkos> the hash is the ripemd160, just like a bitcoin address
1092 2013-04-23 08:51:45 <jaakkos> but it's not base58 encoded.
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1095 2013-04-23 08:57:21 <jaakkos> vinne81: note however that not all output scripts are in that format
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1143 2013-04-23 09:33:04 <tgs3> Luke-Jr: miners desperate?
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1241 2013-04-23 11:20:47 <diki> is a block which does not include transactions valid?
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1252 2013-04-23 11:30:56 <trice> bitcoin signkey is unique?
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1259 2013-04-23 11:45:08 <jgm> diki: yes.  Otherwise bitcoin would have had trouble getting started
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1261 2013-04-23 11:45:56 <diki> so essentially if a miner modified his client to not accept any transactions his blocks would still be valid when mined?
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1263 2013-04-23 11:46:27 <diki> when I say client, I mean bitcoind/bitcoin-qt
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1275 2013-04-23 11:54:47 <sipa> diki: sure, that's been done in the past too
1276 2013-04-23 11:55:12 <diki> I've been reading the code, but where can I find the networking part where a tx is accepted?
1277 2013-04-23 11:55:28 <sipa> ProcessMessage in main.cpp, "tx" message
1278 2013-04-23 11:55:39 <gaantr2> I have a part of a program, it is a bitcoin-j program. I used one of the sample programs to help me get started. The Ping Service. I have noticed that when I let it run overnight it seems to stop working and when I restart the program the next day, I have to blow away the wallet, blockchain and refresh all of the addresses in my application. This is not an ideal way to do things.
1279 2013-04-23 11:56:07 <TD> gaantr2: can you define "stop working"?
1280 2013-04-23 11:56:22 <diki> sipa:thanks
1281 2013-04-23 11:56:31 <gaantr2> TD: when I send coins to an address on the keyring they are never received
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1283 2013-04-23 11:56:45 <gaantr2> they just show as pending
1284 2013-04-23 11:57:06 <TD> gaantr2: so they are received, but blocks are not, is what you're saying?
1285 2013-04-23 11:57:32 <TD> gaantr2: what version of bitcoinj are you using?
1286 2013-04-23 11:57:39 <gaantr2> I'm a noobie with bitcoinj, so I am not sure precisely what is happening. Something isn't working. I am using 0.6
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1288 2013-04-23 11:57:59 <TD> 0.6?
1289 2013-04-23 11:58:00 <TD> why?
1290 2013-04-23 11:58:03 <gaantr2> There are a couple of issues.
1291 2013-04-23 11:58:04 <TD> that's ancient. the latest version is 0.8
1292 2013-04-23 11:58:35 <TD> update to the latest version and try again, see what happens
1293 2013-04-23 11:58:43 <gaantr2> I think when I tried to run 0.8 I had an issue with log4j or some path issue
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1295 2013-04-23 11:58:53 <gaantr2> I'll try to update again.
1296 2013-04-23 11:59:07 <gaantr2> it should still work in 0.6 though no?
1297 2013-04-23 11:59:19 <gaantr2> It is old but not useless I am assume.
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1299 2013-04-23 12:00:30 <TD> older releases are buggier than newer releases. i don't know the cause offhand, but there's no point in trying to debug something so old. only the very latest code is supported. so you'll have to make 0.8 work. what's the path issue? it should work out of the box. logging didn't really change between 0.6 and 0.8
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1304 2013-04-23 12:03:00 <gaantr2> is Mavin a requirement? I'm not using mavin
1305 2013-04-23 12:03:19 <gaantr2> Maven
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1308 2013-04-23 12:04:02 <TD> it's not a requirement but maven will download all the dependencies for you. alternatively an IDE that understands pom files (like intellij) will do the same thing
1309 2013-04-23 12:04:12 <TD> it's quite convenient to have all dependencies downloaded for you, so that's why we recommend you use it
1310 2013-04-23 12:04:22 <TD> see the docs on the website
1311 2013-04-23 12:05:08 <TD> https://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/wiki/UsingMaven
1312 2013-04-23 12:05:30 <gaantr2> I'll try to get Maven working.
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1314 2013-04-23 12:05:44 <TD> it's not hard. you just grab it from the apache site, put it in your path, and you're done
1315 2013-04-23 12:05:54 <gaantr2> I think that is probably 30% of my issue. Not using Maven
1316 2013-04-23 12:05:58 <TD> then install git and follow the recipe on the page i just linked
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1318 2013-04-23 12:06:08 <TD> well, yes. if you don't have the dependencies of the library available then it won't work :)
1319 2013-04-23 12:06:22 <TD> a good IDE like IntelliJ handles all of this for you, by the way
1320 2013-04-23 12:06:31 <gaantr2> it is working - what I have. Just not *well*
1321 2013-04-23 12:06:34 <gaantr2> :)
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1323 2013-04-23 12:06:38 <TD> i don't know what you're using but i really recommend it. the community edition is free and open source.
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1326 2013-04-23 12:07:08 <gaantr2> I am using NetBeans
1327 2013-04-23 12:07:11 <TD> yes well the latest versions will work much better
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1329 2013-04-23 12:07:26 <TD> ok. i didn't use netbeans for years so i don't know what it can do. but i expect it has some maven integration as well.
1330 2013-04-23 12:07:34 <TD> at some point i should put together tutorials for how to use it with the various IDEs.
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1333 2013-04-23 12:10:44 <jgm> TD: if you're publishing the JAR on the maven repository then most people shouldn't need it.  And if they do there are generic HOWTOs out there
1334 2013-04-23 12:11:29 <TD> we don't publish it on maven central, deliberately
1335 2013-04-23 12:11:47 <TD> the instructions tell people to get it from git directly by commit hash
1336 2013-04-23 12:12:23 <TD> it's sort of weak because the dependencies do come from there. there's a plan to come up with some maven plugin that will check the hashes of all the downloaded libraries.
1337 2013-04-23 12:12:34 <TD> i think cameron said he might try that at some point, but never came through.
1338 2013-04-23 12:13:05 <TD> the eventual goal is to lock down the entire dependency tree so if maven central gets compromised, nothing bad happens
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1340 2013-04-23 12:14:10 <jgm> hmm... haven't seen anything quite like it.  Trouble is you're also going to need something similar for other systems (Ivy, Gradle, etc.) to be safe.  Perhaps some sort of check of JAR checksums inside bitcoinj when it starts?
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1342 2013-04-23 12:15:09 <jgm> Of course you'll then need to do a manual audit of each Jar before you take your checksum to ensure that it hasn't been compromised :)
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1344 2013-04-23 12:15:16 <TD> yeah, something like that perhaps. of course you still need to get bitcoinj itself in a secure manner and the simplest way to do that seems to be distributing git commit hashes.
1345 2013-04-23 12:15:33 <TD> right :) well, i'd settle for now for just locking in the current versions. if someone already beat us to it, sucks for us
1346 2013-04-23 12:15:43 <TD> but yes long term recompiling all the jars and reproducing their builds is the way to go
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1348 2013-04-23 12:15:59 <TD> do ivy/gradle support maven central?
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1351 2013-04-23 12:18:39 <TD> the other thing i considered is just checking in all the JARs we require
1352 2013-04-23 12:19:03 <TD> and then fiddling the classpath setup in maven to make sure we load them. or doing something with classloaders. not sure really.
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1354 2013-04-23 12:20:36 <jgm> Trouble is you're creating the illusion of security by doing that, at least without the manual auditing step
1355 2013-04-23 12:20:57 <jgm> (Yep most of the newer dependency management systems support maven repositories)
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1357 2013-04-23 12:21:54 <TD> security isn't really an either/or, it's about constantly raising the bar. as bitcoins become more valuable and the economy expands, attacks that would once have been too much hassle become feasible. so even just locking in current versions is a good start.
1358 2013-04-23 12:22:04 <TD> they can then be audited more thoroughly over time
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1360 2013-04-23 12:23:28 <jgm> True
1361 2013-04-23 12:23:59 <jgm> But then you'll  end up patching existing jars rather than taking on new ones because of the re-audit effort.
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1363 2013-04-23 12:24:38 <jgm> Not saying that you shouldn't do this, just wondering in general if there is a better way of doing this.  Surely a lot of the common JARs must be audited as a matter of course to allow for their use in secure/governmental applications
1364 2013-04-23 12:24:43 <TD> when it's time to update a dependency, that's a good time to amortize the cost of reproducing the build. usually upstream developers are signing their releases or using git as well.
1365 2013-04-23 12:24:54 <TD> well, i'd hope so, but i bet the answer is they aren't
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1368 2013-04-23 12:26:05 <jgm> Might have a nose on the 'net and see if I can find anything.  If we could get checksums of audited JARs that would be a very useful service to find
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1372 2013-04-23 12:27:45 <TD> indeed
1373 2013-04-23 12:27:53 <TD> bcj has a bunch of oddball dependencies though, like scrypt
1374 2013-04-23 12:28:26 <TD> still, some of the others would be useful to audit. netty, protobufs, etc
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1376 2013-04-23 12:30:19 <diki> sipa:Is ProcessMessage also used when you find a block and would like to broadcast it, or is it just for ingoing traffic?
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1399 2013-04-23 13:03:25 <TD> oh dear
1400 2013-04-23 13:03:39 <TD> sipa: i shut down bitcoin-qt from git master whilst it was doing IBD and now it says the block db is corrupted :(
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1406 2013-04-23 13:07:08 <stollenga> hi, i want to crawl the bitcoin network to get practice with the protocol. So i do the version handshake, getaddr and store the list of ips. Then continue to those ips and do the same.
1407 2013-04-23 13:07:22 <stollenga> Is this ok or will the network see it as spamming or something and block me?
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1409 2013-04-23 13:08:19 <saracen> stollenga: Use testnet for that sort of thing
1410 2013-04-23 13:08:29 <saracen> Nodes can ban you for behaving badly
1411 2013-04-23 13:08:52 <saracen> AS far as I know, they wont detect you just connecting and listening and not doing much else, but, using the testnet to explore this sort of thing would be better
1412 2013-04-23 13:09:10 <saracen> wont ban you for*
1413 2013-04-23 13:09:15 <diki> how much is testnet diff?
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1415 2013-04-23 13:10:24 <saracen> In terms of the network protocol, the only difference should be the magic network bytes
1416 2013-04-23 13:10:59 <saracen> In terms of the system, the difficulty will be lower, the address format slightly different
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1425 2013-04-23 13:12:10 <stollenga> yeah im using the testnet first
1426 2013-04-23 13:12:15 <diki> saracen:I was asking about the current testnet difficulty
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1429 2013-04-23 13:12:38 <diki> sorry for being vague
1430 2013-04-23 13:12:40 <saracen> diki: Oh, i thought diff was for different :)
1431 2013-04-23 13:13:06 <stollenga> but my first try got some problems, many connections timed out, is it typical that communication over protocol has many delays?
1432 2013-04-23 13:14:27 <saracen> stollenga: how were you obtaining the addresses?
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1434 2013-04-23 13:16:12 <saracen> diki: testnet difficulty is 1
1435 2013-04-23 13:16:21 <diki> I see, thanks
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1439 2013-04-23 13:19:26 <stollenga> saracen: sending getaddr, and you get back a list of adresses
1440 2013-04-23 13:20:07 <stollenga> and i concurrently start poking them for more addresses
1441 2013-04-23 13:20:24 <stollenga> it might be that my pc doesnt handle so many connections and thats why it times out
1442 2013-04-23 13:20:55 <saracen> Well, I don't really know how it works, but I do know that by default bitcoind's are limited to listening to 8 connections
1443 2013-04-23 13:21:03 <saracen> So, it might be that their addresses are still broadcast
1444 2013-04-23 13:21:13 <saracen> But they cannot accept anymore connections, thus it just times out
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1447 2013-04-23 13:22:24 <stollenga> hmm good point
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1449 2013-04-23 13:22:39 <stollenga> though i would expect a connection refused then, which i also get sometimes
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1455 2013-04-23 13:23:21 <stollenga> but it seems that big packages, like the address list (of up to 1000 adresses) just takes more time
1456 2013-04-23 13:24:50 <diki> saracen:do you perhaps know how many blocks testnet has as I am at 50k blocks and still counting
1457 2013-04-23 13:25:23 comboy has joined
1458 2013-04-23 13:25:24 <saracen> https://blockexplorer.com/testnet/q/getblockcount
1459 2013-04-23 13:25:31 <saracen> If blockexplorer isn't lying, it should be that many
1460 2013-04-23 13:25:37 robocoin has joined
1461 2013-04-23 13:25:43 <saracen> https://blockexplorer.com/testnet/q for other testnet queries
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1463 2013-04-23 13:31:43 <sipa> TD: which error?
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1467 2013-04-23 13:33:28 <sipa> TD: application-level error, or leveldb detecting corruption?
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1472 2013-04-23 13:40:32 <TD> sipa: app-level
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1475 2013-04-23 13:41:12 <TD> unfortunately it seems the log was truncated
1476 2013-04-23 13:41:28 <TD> it was something like ConnectTransactions failed to find a previous transaction. i should have made a note of the details.
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1485 2013-04-23 13:45:39 <sipa> TD: are you running with -txindex?
1486 2013-04-23 13:46:23 <TD> no
1487 2013-04-23 13:46:31 nouitfvf has joined
1488 2013-04-23 13:46:38 <TD> actually never mind. it may not have been a completely clean build.
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1492 2013-04-23 13:46:50 <TD> i tend to forget that you can't exactly rely on the bitcoin build system :(
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1498 2013-04-23 13:48:53 <sipa> TD: there's a known problem on OSX where you run out of file descriptors
1499 2013-04-23 13:48:58 <TD> this is ubuntu
1500 2013-04-23 13:49:00 <sipa> oh
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1503 2013-04-23 13:49:12 <TD> but normally i'm on a mac yes :)
1504 2013-04-23 13:49:12 taha has quit (Read error: error:1408F119:SSL routines:SSL3_GET_RECORD:decryption failed or bad record mac)
1505 2013-04-23 13:49:31 <sipa> when i'm playing with compile flags, i sometimes get failed builds
1506 2013-04-23 13:49:50 <TD> i've been playing with gavinandresens paymentrequest branch and discovered i have to do an IBD on this machine. sigh :(
1507 2013-04-23 13:49:52 <sipa> but i can't remember any problems with unclean builds succeeding but failing at runtime
1508 2013-04-23 13:49:53 <TD> so sloooowwwww
1509 2013-04-23 13:50:09 <TD> sipa: ok. i'm not saying that's the cause, just that i realized afterwards i did a git pull without a make clean after it
1510 2013-04-23 13:50:13 <diki> interesting
1511 2013-04-23 13:50:19 <sipa> -connect=<somevps> -dbcache=1000
1512 2013-04-23 13:50:22 <TD> sipa: otherwise i may have just got unlucky somehow. i tried shutting it down again and no problems
1513 2013-04-23 13:50:25 <diki> my miner keeps displaying a difficulty of 42 for testnet
1514 2013-04-23 13:50:31 <diki> but on blockexplorer its 1.00
1515 2013-04-23 13:50:42 <sipa> TD: it seems like a weird problem to be caused by compilation problems
1516 2013-04-23 13:51:02 <TD> yeah. that was probably a red herring.
1517 2013-04-23 13:51:27 <TD> "Software in the Public Interest" this is some debian thing, right?
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1521 2013-04-23 13:51:38 <TD> seems like they ship ubuntu with an invalid root cert
1522 2013-04-23 13:52:42 * TD -> meeting
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1545 2013-04-23 14:08:41 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: sorry, should be fixed now
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1554 2013-04-23 14:14:38 <freefox> is there a way to rescan latest n blocks for transactions instead of the whole blockchain?
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1556 2013-04-23 14:16:27 <sipa> freefox: no, but that should happen automatically when you start with a wallet that is old
1557 2013-04-23 14:16:35 <sipa> (it rescans whatever part of the chain it missed)
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1560 2013-04-23 14:19:27 <freefox> but when importing a privkey it has to rescan the whole thing to show the transactions right?
1561 2013-04-23 14:20:11 <freefox> I can disable rescanning at the time of importing, but I need to rescan later anyway, so this isn't of much use now
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1592 2013-04-23 14:48:58 <halvors> Hi! Just woundering how forks like Litecoin works?
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1594 2013-04-23 14:49:22 <lianj> halvors: look at their pages
1595 2013-04-23 14:49:22 <lupine> terribly
1596 2013-04-23 14:49:23 <halvors> Is there a field in the protocol that says what network? Bitcoin or Litecoin?
1597 2013-04-23 14:49:31 <lianj> halvors: yes ofc
1598 2013-04-23 14:50:08 <lianj> they also take a different port usually
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1613 2013-04-23 14:56:52 <halvors> lianj: But changing the magic value should be enough?
1614 2013-04-23 14:56:53 Mr_G has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1615 2013-04-23 14:57:04 <halvors> lianj: And where in code is that variable?
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1617 2013-04-23 14:57:36 <gavinandresen> no.  the reference implementation supports two networks, main bitcoin network and the test network.  See all the if (fTestNet) code for an idea of what needs to change for an alt chain
1618 2013-04-23 14:59:02 panzer has joined
1619 2013-04-23 14:59:07 <halvors> In what source file? :)
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1621 2013-04-23 14:59:28 <lianj> more than one
1622 2013-04-23 15:00:45 <lianj> halvors: http://paste.mhanne.net/raw/55a20b6b9eeb077a0b8ddd929399aa4db0f8e6d1 for example this are all values that should change. some altchains fail to do so
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1630 2013-04-23 15:06:56 <gaantr2> Okay - getting a java.nio.channels.OverlappingFileLockException while using bitcoinj
1631 2013-04-23 15:07:06 <gaantr2> Using 0.9 version.
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1636 2013-04-23 15:11:17 <halvors> lianj: How do i generate a new genesis_hash and the other values?
1637 2013-04-23 15:14:22 <lianj> look for some guide. its not a 2 minute job if you don't know bitcoin well already
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1641 2013-04-23 15:16:55 <TD> gaantr2: pastebin me a stack trace. but that sounds like you're trying to run the same app simultaneously.
1642 2013-04-23 15:16:58 <TD> gaantr2: or it's a windows issue.
1643 2013-04-23 15:17:03 <TD> gaantr2: it's not really tested on windows
1644 2013-04-23 15:17:36 <TD> gaantr2: btw use SPVBlockStore instead. it's got the same file locking code but should be a lot faster and more compact
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1691 2013-04-23 15:58:30 <diki> Can bitcoin use some kind of encryption of the protocol encryption like bittorrent? This way, it will be harder for ISPs to say filter bitcoin if a government wanted to.
1692 2013-04-23 15:58:53 <sipa> use tor
1693 2013-04-23 15:59:03 <kinlo> diki: not at the moment, but it can be added later, and indeed tor would solve it immediatly
1694 2013-04-23 15:59:15 <diki> Yeah..I've found using Tor is slow.
1695 2013-04-23 15:59:26 <diki> not for bitcoin, for browsing, but I imagine it's the sam
1696 2013-04-23 15:59:28 <diki> *same
1697 2013-04-23 15:59:35 <kinlo> tor is fast enough to keep uptodate
1698 2013-04-23 15:59:43 <kinlo> just download your blockchain initially without tor
1699 2013-04-23 15:59:46 <sipa> unless you're mining or doing IBD, bandwidth isn't all that much of an issue
1700 2013-04-23 16:00:08 <sipa> well, for mining it's really latency that matters, which is also worse on tor
1701 2013-04-23 16:00:22 <kinlo> IBD?
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1703 2013-04-23 16:00:33 <kinlo> sipa: well, I don't think latency is that big a problem
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1705 2013-04-23 16:05:03 <sipa> when it's ~seconds, it would be
1706 2013-04-23 16:05:12 <sipa> don't know the actual latency increase by tor
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1708 2013-04-23 16:05:47 <BlueMatt> TD: if one were to move the BlockImporter tool to a library function (ie a class which will feed you blocks if you pass it a File), where would it go?
1709 2013-04-23 16:06:19 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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1711 2013-04-23 16:07:19 <kinlo> sipa: what's IBD?
1712 2013-04-23 16:07:40 <sipa> initial block download
1713 2013-04-23 16:07:43 Sealy has quit (Quit: Sealy)
1714 2013-04-23 16:07:43 <kinlo> oh :p
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1718 2013-04-23 16:09:15 <jgarzik> sipa, diki: Tor doesn't do much for protocol fingerprinting
1719 2013-04-23 16:09:43 <jgarzik> To fix that problem, you need a technology that has reliable packet timings and size -- and thus wastes a lot of bandwidth at idle
1720 2013-04-23 16:10:03 <TD> BlueMatt: well I guess it'd just be a class that you can give an AbstractBlockStore to in the c'tor or load() methods
1721 2013-04-23 16:11:06 <BlueMatt> TD: BitcoindComparisonTool (maybe needs a rename) will use it to not keep blocks out of memory
1722 2013-04-23 16:11:18 <BlueMatt> TD: and read all the created blocks out of a temp file, so it needs a block list
1723 2013-04-23 16:11:19 <TD> ok
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1727 2013-04-23 16:13:56 <graingert> gmaxwell: why am I banned in #bitcoin-mining?
1728 2013-04-23 16:15:19 <gmaxwell> graingert: heck if I know, but this is not #bitcoin-ask-about-your-bans-here
1729 2013-04-23 16:15:26 <graingert> gmaxwell: :p
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1731 2013-04-23 16:15:30 <graingert> gmaxwell: where is that?
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1751 2013-04-23 16:31:02 <freefox> I patched init.cpp to allow rescanning latest N blocks, does this look ok? http://pastebin.com/tEwZSpq0
1752 2013-04-23 16:31:12 <freefox> it works as far as I can tell
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1764 2013-04-23 16:41:28 <freefox> this function isn't changed in 0.8.1 btw, so it should work
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1768 2013-04-23 16:42:52 <sipa> freefox: apart from some coding style, looks good to me
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1770 2013-04-23 16:43:47 <sipa> freefox: on the other hand, i'm actually planning to add some export/import to a human readable format for all keys in the wallet, similar to what bitcoin wallet for android does, including timestamps on the keys
1771 2013-04-23 16:46:02 Muis has joined
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1773 2013-04-23 16:47:03 <sipa> so i wonder, if you want such functionality at the low level, wouldn't using a timestamp in the importprivkey be more user friendly?
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1780 2013-04-23 16:54:14 <freefox> sipa: nice, thanks, that could be convenient too I think,
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1788 2013-04-23 17:01:26 <diki> sipa:Why does getinfo show the previous block's difficulty?
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1808 2013-04-23 17:27:46 <jgm> TD: Any sample code out there that will allow me to create and sign a transaction totally offline using bitcoinj?  Everything I can find seems to rely on the blockchain being downloaded, and I'm just attempting to use Transaction.signInputs() to verify my own attempts
1809 2013-04-23 17:28:44 <TD> you don't need the block chain downloaded, that just happens to be the most obvious place to get the transactions you're spending
1810 2013-04-23 17:29:00 <TD> you can insert them into the wallet directly, if you have them, or you could manually connect them using TransactionInput.connect
1811 2013-04-23 17:29:32 <jgm> Ah okay will see if I can do it that way then.  Thanks
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1840 2013-04-23 17:58:24 <testerabc> hi
1841 2013-04-23 17:58:35 <BlueMatt> wow, gnome-terminal removes transparency option, when asked to readd it the only response is "no", never any arguments as to why, nothing, just "go fuck yourself, we know better than our users" <-- as if you needed more evidence gnome is now run by a  bunch of morons
1842 2013-04-23 17:59:06 <testerabc> at the moment im using a rfc6455 websocket protocol, on websocket.mtgox.com/mtgox/  but i get a unknown server protocol error any idea what i am doing wrong here?
1843 2013-04-23 17:59:57 <sipa> BlueMatt: i never understood that feature anyway :p
1844 2013-04-23 18:00:07 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I've been using konsole for a long time. I dunno if it does transparency but it has a lot of pretty nice features.
1845 2013-04-23 18:00:14 <sipa> then again, i don't use gnome either
1846 2013-04-23 18:00:15 <BlueMatt> sipa: oh, but its incredibly useful...
1847 2013-04-23 18:00:33 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: too late, already installed xfce-terminal, afaict its just a fork of gnome-terminal because it looks +/- the same
1848 2013-04-23 18:00:36 <sipa> well, not with a tiling window manager :)
1849 2013-04-23 18:01:00 <BlueMatt> transparency is great on laptops with limited screen realestate
1850 2013-04-23 18:01:02 <gmaxwell> yea, tiling window mangage means never not knowing whats behind your window.
1851 2013-04-23 18:01:20 <gmaxwell> (nothing! nothing is behind your window!)
1852 2013-04-23 18:01:28 <BlueMatt> testerabc: #mtgox
1853 2013-04-23 18:02:27 <gmaxwell> Coolest features in konsole? Monitor for activity / monitor for silence.
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1868 2013-04-23 18:14:26 marijnfs has joined
1869 2013-04-23 18:15:05 <marijnfs> hello, im crawling the testnetwork and find only 42 active (properly replying) nodes
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1871 2013-04-23 18:15:17 <marijnfs> does anyone know how many should be active?
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1874 2013-04-23 18:17:21 <sipa> marijnfs: ask petertodd
1875 2013-04-23 18:18:10 <marijnfs> hmm he knows that stuff?
1876 2013-04-23 18:18:56 <sipa> he runs a seednode
1877 2013-04-23 18:19:02 <sipa> eh, a dns seed server
1878 2013-04-23 18:19:03 <sipa> for testnet
1879 2013-04-23 18:19:39 <marijnfs> aha cool
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1881 2013-04-23 18:20:00 <petertodd> marijnfs: 42 is higher than normal actually
1882 2013-04-23 18:20:08 <marijnfs> also, hypothetically, if my crawling gets my ip blacklisted, how long am i not able to use bitcoin?
1883 2013-04-23 18:20:42 <gmaxwell> "crawling"?
1884 2013-04-23 18:20:43 <freefox> marijnfs: how are you crawling?
1885 2013-04-23 18:21:34 <marijnfs> starting with a node, ask getaddr, get addresses, visit those adresses
1886 2013-04-23 18:21:51 <marijnfs> with multiple connections concurrently, but visiting each ip once
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1891 2013-04-23 18:24:49 <sipa> marijnfs: i know of no implementation that will blacklist you for that
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1901 2013-04-23 18:39:28 <HM2> someone trying to map nodes?
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1904 2013-04-23 18:39:43 <sipa> you're not? :p
1905 2013-04-23 18:39:45 <HM2> it'd be nice if we could get an idea of network size and health
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1908 2013-04-23 18:40:13 <HM2> anything out there trying to do that?
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1910 2013-04-23 18:40:21 <sipa> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/seeds.txt
1911 2013-04-23 18:40:38 <gmaxwell> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/bestblocks.html < big and unhealthy. :P
1912 2013-04-23 18:41:30 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I believe that includes nodes which havent been reachable for months
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1914 2013-04-23 18:41:33 freefox has quit (Quit: freefox)
1915 2013-04-23 18:42:40 <HM2> that pie chart wiggles
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1917 2013-04-23 18:43:45 <sipa> BlueMatt: luke recently made some changes to my crawler to report the time of last successful try
1918 2013-04-23 18:44:20 <BlueMatt> of nodes with somewhat recent versions (support pongs), I see 10% which fail to provide the  highest-100's block
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1921 2013-04-23 18:44:46 <HM2> 421 nodes on sipa's list not using port 8333
1922 2013-04-23 18:44:49 <BlueMatt> sipa: nice, hopefully that graph will be updated
1923 2013-04-23 18:44:53 <HM2> out of ~222k
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1925 2013-04-23 18:45:51 <HM2> there appears to be some duplicate IPs as well
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1927 2013-04-23 18:47:20 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: going from sipa's data, last try >24 hours ago— has about 20% way out of sync.
1928 2013-04-23 18:47:47 <sipa> <24 hours ago, i assume?
1929 2013-04-23 18:47:52 <gmaxwell> er yes.
1930 2013-04-23 18:47:58 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
1931 2013-04-23 18:49:24 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well, mine is a bit more complicated...if it was correct in the past 24 hours, its not counted
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1934 2013-04-23 18:51:11 <HM2> My IP isn't on the list
1935 2013-04-23 18:51:32 <HM2> hmm
1936 2013-04-23 18:52:11 <BlueMatt> actually, retry times are effecting that a bit, its really a bit lower than 10%
1937 2013-04-23 18:53:02 D34TH has joined
1938 2013-04-23 18:53:25 <BlueMatt> also, that version requirement may be effecting it
1939 2013-04-23 18:53:57 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1940 2013-04-23 18:54:05 Belxjander has joined
1941 2013-04-23 18:54:09 <BlueMatt> in other news, pull-tester is down while I track down some compatibility issues with wine, sorry
1942 2013-04-23 18:55:20 <sipa> HM2: does you node know its own IP?
1943 2013-04-23 18:55:24 <sipa> and is it reachable?
1944 2013-04-23 18:55:54 <HM2> should be
1945 2013-04-23 18:56:08 jonass has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1946 2013-04-23 18:56:14 <HM2> I'll check on it, i haven't bothered for several weeks :P
1947 2013-04-23 19:00:06 <HM2> oh dear
1948 2013-04-23 19:00:06 <graingert> how do I convert from sipa format to the format that bitcoin-qt importprivkey takes?
1949 2013-04-23 19:00:38 <graingert> ie from bitcoinspinner android to bitcoin-qt
1950 2013-04-23 19:01:00 santoscork has joined
1951 2013-04-23 19:01:11 <jouke> graingert: bitcoin-qt takes the sipa-format
1952 2013-04-23 19:01:13 <HM2> i may as well update
1953 2013-04-23 19:01:22 <graingert> jouke: hmm
1954 2013-04-23 19:01:22 <HM2> any debian packages for 0.8.1?
1955 2013-04-23 19:01:24 <graingert> I get an error
1956 2013-04-23 19:01:41 <jouke> graingert: you can use bitaddress.org for key-translation.
1957 2013-04-23 19:01:46 <graingert> jouke: it's like bsb:foo?net=0
1958 2013-04-23 19:02:40 MobPhone has joined
1959 2013-04-23 19:02:47 <jouke> Euh, ok. Never seen that one. I have no experience with bitcoinspinner.
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1967 2013-04-23 19:09:09 <helo> bitoinspinner was ok. there's really no need now that bitcoin wallet syncs so quickly
1968 2013-04-23 19:09:55 <helo> oh, exporting keys... no clue
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1974 2013-04-23 19:17:18 <tonikt> Hi gents. I have a question about testnet3 blockchain.
1975 2013-04-23 19:17:26 qwebirc63450 has joined
1976 2013-04-23 19:17:46 <tonikt> I know that for testnet the difficulty calculation is changed - and I think that I implemented it properly in my code
1977 2013-04-23 19:18:12 <tonikt> ... but I still get a mismatch at block #40320 and #56448
1978 2013-04-23 19:18:22 <tonikt> Would you possibly know anything about it?
1979 2013-04-23 19:19:03 <sipa> i know there's a bug in the calculation when the special rule gets applied on a 2016-aligned block
1980 2013-04-23 19:19:19 <helo> unfortunate to have compatability problems with the one thing that you can't test directly on testnet :/
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1985 2013-04-23 19:21:14 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: when playing with child pays for parent did you look at any of the lit on 2-hop labeling?
1986 2013-04-23 19:21:47 <tonikt> ok... but I implemented my calculation, basing on the original client's source code... so I wonder how is it possible that the original client does not complain about this mismatch..
1987 2013-04-23 19:22:03 michagogo_ has joined
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1990 2013-04-23 19:22:26 <gmaxwell> tonikt: because you haven't faithfully immitated the original client code.
1991 2013-04-23 19:22:30 nus- is now known as nus
1992 2013-04-23 19:22:41 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: no, should I?
1993 2013-04-23 19:22:49 <BlueMatt> (it hasnt actually been implemented yet)
1994 2013-04-23 19:22:51 <tonikt> gmaxwell: obviously :)
1995 2013-04-23 19:23:00 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Perhaps, www.cs.tau.ac.il/~zwick/papers/labels-full.ps
1996 2013-04-23 19:23:16 <tonikt> But I just want it fix it and wonder how...
1997 2013-04-23 19:23:48 <tonikt> So far I have fixed it by "if testenet do_not_check_bits()"
1998 2013-04-23 19:23:57 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1999 2013-04-23 19:24:05 Belxjander has joined
2000 2013-04-23 19:24:26 <sipa> tonikt: notice that those two heights you mentioned are multiples of 2016...
2001 2013-04-23 19:24:27 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: thanks, Ill dig deeper
2002 2013-04-23 19:24:54 <tonikt> sipa: that's when you should re-evaluate
2003 2013-04-23 19:25:12 <tonikt> ... and in both cases the block has the minimum allowed difficulty
2004 2013-04-23 19:25:37 <tonikt> ... while I expect 0x1C02C0DD at #40320
2005 2013-04-23 19:26:03 <tonikt> ... and 0x1C02CEFC at #56448
2006 2013-04-23 19:26:34 <gmaxwell> tonikt: the difficulty change is computed based on the prior block.
2007 2013-04-23 19:26:45 <gmaxwell> the prior block was a special case diff 1 block.
2008 2013-04-23 19:27:09 <sipa> so you exactly hit the bug
2009 2013-04-23 19:27:16 <tonikt> hmmm
2010 2013-04-23 19:27:22 rushed has joined
2011 2013-04-23 19:27:38 <tonikt> special case diff 1 block?
2012 2013-04-23 19:27:42 <tonikt> what does it mean?
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2016 2013-04-23 19:28:05 <sipa> the "buggy rule" is, when block N*2016-1 has the special testnet rule (allowing difficulty 1), it real difficulty gets reset to 1 for the next 2016 block cycle
2017 2013-04-23 19:28:08 TheLordOfTime has left ("Leaving")
2018 2013-04-23 19:28:38 <tonikt> sipa: ok, that makes sense - let me check it
2019 2013-04-23 19:29:12 <tonikt> sipa: would you be able to refer me to a code in the original client?
2020 2013-04-23 19:29:44 LorenzoMoney has left ("Once you know what it is you want to be true, instinct is a very useful device for enabling you to know that it is")
2021 2013-04-23 19:30:03 <tonikt> .. anything outside the GetNextWorkRequired() function?
2022 2013-04-23 19:30:07 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: also useful phrases to search for on this subproblem "greedy chain cover" for other stuff on fast lookup techniques for querying graph transitive closures.
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2028 2013-04-23 19:32:05 <nsh> gmaxwell, have you considered collating links for a (semi-)comprehensive bitcoin primer/reader including relevant background theory material, etc.
2029 2013-04-23 19:32:05 <nsh> ?
2030 2013-04-23 19:32:09 MobPhone has joined
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2032 2013-04-23 19:32:18 <nsh> i would personally quite like to read all of the things that you have read, for instance
2033 2013-04-23 19:32:37 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2034 2013-04-23 19:32:41 <nsh> but a more editorialised subset might be a good thing to make for general consumption
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2041 2013-04-23 19:35:29 <csc`> how might i export the private keys on an encrypted wallet with bitcoind?
2042 2013-04-23 19:35:48 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: alright, though Im not sure how much this is all worth it, its obvious that you cant do better than n^2 (hell, the current algorithm is n^2) and a usually-optimal n^2lgn is pretty close...
2043 2013-04-23 19:37:25 <helo> nsh: you probably don't want to read everything gmaxwell has read... he reads a _lot_
2044 2013-04-23 19:37:34 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2045 2013-04-23 19:37:44 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
2046 2013-04-23 19:37:46 * nsh smiles
2047 2013-04-23 19:38:57 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2049 2013-04-23 19:39:55 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I was more thinking about memory usage if you're tracking reachablity with a straight vector-clock... with thousands of transactions in flight a naive implementation could waste a lot of memory just tracking the transitive closure.
2050 2013-04-23 19:40:43 <michagogo> csc`: You'd use the dumpprivkey call
2051 2013-04-23 19:41:45 median^ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2052 2013-04-23 19:42:00 <csc`> meh i thought about it and decided it wasn't worth the effort
2053 2013-04-23 19:42:07 <nsh> gmaxwell, what does that mean in english?
2054 2013-04-23 19:42:11 <csc`> since i dumped my android keys and encrypted them into a 7z
2055 2013-04-23 19:42:38 * nsh probably needs to read up on fundamentals of distributed systems
2056 2013-04-23 19:42:39 Skav has joined
2057 2013-04-23 19:42:47 <gmaxwell> nsh: If only there were a free online encyclopedia that you could use as a decoder ring for things I say!
2058 2013-04-23 19:42:58 <nsh> {{sofixit}}
2059 2013-04-23 19:43:03 <nsh> (by delegation)
2060 2013-04-23 19:43:18 * nsh reads
2061 2013-04-23 19:43:27 <nsh> the problem isn't that things aren't written about though
2062 2013-04-23 19:43:42 <nsh> it's that things aren't written about with reference to a certain problem or area
2063 2013-04-23 19:43:54 <nsh> there is a fundamentally broken assumption in wikipedia
2064 2013-04-23 19:44:17 <nsh> or encyclopedias in general, that you can have perfect informative separability of subject matters
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2070 2013-04-23 19:48:22 <petertodd> BlueMatt: I'm close to getting child-pays-for parent implemented, but that includes a mempool rewrite and my approach isn't terribly sophisticated.
2071 2013-04-23 19:48:40 MobPhone has joined
2072 2013-04-23 19:48:53 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Basically it pushes the exponential scaling problem to as small a domain as possible, then punts on the problem.
2073 2013-04-23 19:49:12 * petertodd is not a computer scientist
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2081 2013-04-23 19:55:34 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: is it better than the implementation I did months ago at least? :P
2082 2013-04-23 19:55:45 <Luke-Jr> (otherwise, what's the point?)
2083 2013-04-23 19:56:05 privtrans has joined
2084 2013-04-23 19:56:35 <privtrans> newbie question: I have read that the total bitcoins to be issued is capped... 21 Million... what enforces this cap? Could it be changed? If so by whom?
2085 2013-04-23 19:56:43 LorenzoMoney has joined
2086 2013-04-23 19:57:12 <Luke-Jr> privtrans: every participant in the network independently enforces it
2087 2013-04-23 19:57:13 <EvilPete> privtrans: every bitcoin node fully audits the entire history itself, every node knows where the coins come from and how many there can be.
2088 2013-04-23 19:57:32 <Luke-Jr> privtrans: therefore, it can be changed only with the unanimous consent of all participants
2089 2013-04-23 19:57:47 <nsh> (except in practice)
2090 2013-04-23 19:57:54 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Your implementation is specific to CreateNewBlock, while this implementation integrates into the whole mempool. It's for replace-by-fee so the use-case is different. I'm not going to say one is better than the other for mining.
2091 2013-04-23 19:58:08 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: very nice
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2094 2013-04-23 19:58:24 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: no, I was thinking that a lot of CNB time could be cut out by precalculating the priorities once
2095 2013-04-23 19:58:48 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: when it's ready for testing, ping me and I'll see about getting it on Eligius :D
2096 2013-04-23 19:59:31 <privtrans> ok, to paraphrase.... rules which each node enforce, specify the current rate of issuance (50 coins every 10 minutes), and specify the cap?  Correct?
2097 2013-04-23 19:59:34 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Yup, that's exactly what my implementation does. Basically as a new tx comes in, check if the profitability is higher than it's parents, and if so propagate profit into upwads, subject to limits to avoid bad scaling performance by keeping n small. Not clever and comp-sci, but it'll work.
2098 2013-04-23 19:59:46 <gavinandresen> TD: payment requests work great on testnet if you don't want to wait for main-net syncing
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2100 2013-04-23 20:00:08 <Luke-Jr> privtrans: the cap is based on the rate of new blocks, correct
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2102 2013-04-23 20:00:30 TD has joined
2103 2013-04-23 20:00:37 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: eh, does that consider the case where a block might not have both?
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2105 2013-04-23 20:01:12 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: a block might not have both what?
2106 2013-04-23 20:01:14 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: for example, if the parent has insufficent fees but the child has sufficient, I wouldn't want to mine the parent and find out I don't have room for the child in the same block
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2109 2013-04-23 20:01:26 <privtrans> I ask because some criticism of the bitcoin currency is that having a fixed number of coins is viewed as a liability by some people.... (I agree that is debatable)
2110 2013-04-23 20:01:55 <helo> privtrans: #bitcoin
2111 2013-04-23 20:02:12 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: the way my implementation works, is by simply counting the parents' sizes as part of the child until they're mined - then CNB considers the child on its own, and if it selects it includes both atomically
2112 2013-04-23 20:02:21 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well, ok, memory usage could be better than my proposed idea
2113 2013-04-23 20:02:28 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Ah, yes, it propagates info on how large the transactions are in total to parents as well. Also every tx gets stored in a heap sorted first by depth, and second by profitability, so you'll be able to just take elements off the heap to create a new block.
2114 2013-04-23 20:02:29 <privtrans> helo... no sure what you are trying to tell me... should I be discussing this only in the #bitcoin channel
2115 2013-04-23 20:02:35 <BlueMatt> petertodd: so we are working on the same thing?
2116 2013-04-23 20:02:41 <BlueMatt> petertodd: thats a great use of time :)
2117 2013-04-23 20:02:44 <helo> privtrans: yes
2118 2013-04-23 20:02:46 urlshell65 has joined
2119 2013-04-23 20:02:57 <privtrans> helo... LOL, folks there told me to ask here.
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2121 2013-04-23 20:03:05 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Yup. If you know more comp-sci than me I'm sure you'll do a better job. My version is meant to be a 2-3 day project.
2122 2013-04-23 20:03:11 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: hmm, so the parent should only ever be included when the child also is immediately after it?
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2124 2013-04-23 20:03:21 <urlshell65> Is there a 'reference implementation' of the bitcoind protocol? I've been reading / testing bitcoinj for a week, can't even get it to show my balance
2125 2013-04-23 20:03:23 ovidiusoft has joined
2126 2013-04-23 20:03:32 <privtrans> it is a technical question, Im wondering if it is technically possible to increase the upper limit, in the future.
2127 2013-04-23 20:03:32 i2pRelay has joined
2128 2013-04-23 20:03:34 <TD> urlshell65: that would be ….. bitcoind itself
2129 2013-04-23 20:03:40 <Luke-Jr> privtrans: basically the 21mil can't be changed in practical terms
2130 2013-04-23 20:03:42 <TD> urlshell65: what are the problems you're having?
2131 2013-04-23 20:03:45 <urlshell65> TD: link?
2132 2013-04-23 20:03:46 <jaakkos> privtrans: tons of thigs in bitcoin is a liability of the network as a whole, such as the 21M cap
2133 2013-04-23 20:03:54 <TD> urlshell65: bitcoin.org! or github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
2134 2013-04-23 20:03:57 <BlueMatt> petertodd: I probably dont, Im only an undergrad...anyway, seems like a waste of at least one of our times
2135 2013-04-23 20:03:58 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Well the parent will start off at the end of the priority heap, then the child comes and bumpes up it's priority, pushing both higher up in the heap.
2136 2013-04-23 20:04:17 <urlshell65> TD: thats 65 percent LiveScript according to github stats
2137 2013-04-23 20:04:22 <TD> huh
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2139 2013-04-23 20:04:34 <TD> where do you see that?!
2140 2013-04-23 20:04:35 <TD> it's C++
2141 2013-04-23 20:04:43 <BlueMatt> petertodd: what all does yours do?
2142 2013-04-23 20:04:44 <Luke-Jr> privtrans: it's not really viable to know 100% of users agree to the changes, and any kind of forced change would be a violation of the social agreement everyone made when they starting using bitcoin
2143 2013-04-23 20:04:44 <petertodd> BlueMatt: How far are you? See, John Dillon updated his reward for another $500 for the recursive fee eval part after I pointed out not doing so enables DoS attacks.
2144 2013-04-23 20:05:05 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Undergrad > fine arts degree :)
2145 2013-04-23 20:05:10 <privtrans> if the 21 million limit is a practical hard limit, then either another currency will evolve, with no upper limit..... or we will accept deflation as the total portion of GDP transacted with bitcoins increases.
2146 2013-04-23 20:05:12 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: but does that guarantee nothing is in between the parent and child that might cause the parent to get included otherwise?
2147 2013-04-23 20:05:12 <jchp> privtrans: the reason an increasing number of coins is a garbage idea from an economics standpoint is you're not actually creating inflation, you're expending resources on energy/transistors
2148 2013-04-23 20:05:18 <BlueMatt> petertodd: I wasnt aware of any bounties (nor do I really care, I kinda enjoy being a broke student, makes life simpler :) )
2149 2013-04-23 20:05:22 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: for example, what if two children might bump the parent up
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2152 2013-04-23 20:05:39 <urlshell65> TD: colored bar below 'Graphs'
2153 2013-04-23 20:05:45 <jchp> what will end up happening isn't inflation, what will end up happening is miners will expend capital on energy up until the breakeven point of the "inflation" rate
2154 2013-04-23 20:05:55 <urlshell65> TD: on github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
2155 2013-04-23 20:06:06 <BlueMatt> petertodd: Ive done memory-limited mempool and done some refactorings to do proper fee calculation
2156 2013-04-23 20:06:10 MobPhone has joined
2157 2013-04-23 20:06:11 <privtrans> actually with a fixed money supply (21 million coins) and a growing GDP, this defines DEflation, not INflation.
2158 2013-04-23 20:06:26 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Ah, yeah if the combined total of two children bumps it up, that can happen. But the second child would need to have a higher fee-per-kb than the first for it to have an effect.
2159 2013-04-23 20:06:31 <jchp> privtrans: my point is that increasing money supply in bitcoins at the end stages won't create inflation
2160 2013-04-23 20:06:34 <BlueMatt> petertodd: havent really started the child-pays-for-parent part aside from a simple refactor to make that code more self-contained
2161 2013-04-23 20:06:38 <jchp> it'll just be an energy sink
2162 2013-04-23 20:06:52 <Luke-Jr> privtrans: the deflation is by-desgin
2163 2013-04-23 20:06:54 <Luke-Jr> design*
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2165 2013-04-23 20:07:16 <urlshell65> privtrans: how 2 increase money supply in the end stages?
2166 2013-04-23 20:07:21 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Ah, yeah we are working redundently. My implementation will later do memory limiting with a simple counter - I figured I'd give throwing out all the mempool code a try. (good practice even if it's all a big failure)
2167 2013-04-23 20:07:21 <jchp> think about it, if you were a miner and it was 2% increase per year, you'll competitively throw energy/transistors at it until you break even. that isn't inflation.
2168 2013-04-23 20:07:23 <privtrans> jchp, I agree nothing about bitcoin is inflationary at end stage (with 21 Million coins issued)
2169 2013-04-23 20:07:41 <sipa> if you use the words inflation/deflation, qualify whether you're talking about monetary inflation or price inflation
2170 2013-04-23 20:07:57 <sipa> they are related but not the same
2171 2013-04-23 20:08:02 <jchp> in economics you always assume it's monetary inflation first, at least i do
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2173 2013-04-23 20:08:13 <privtrans> price inflation would be where it takes more bitcoins to buy the same physical thing, such as a loaf of bread.
2174 2013-04-23 20:08:16 <urlshell65> is this inflation thing even dev related?
2175 2013-04-23 20:08:25 <sipa> no it's not
2176 2013-04-23 20:08:36 <BlueMatt> petertodd: ok, well I suppose we should probably remedy that issue :)
2177 2013-04-23 20:08:43 <privtrans> however, as bitcoin use increases, without an increasing money supply, this will mean a loaf of bread costs fewer bitcoins year over year, as more bread is transacted with the same monetary float.
2178 2013-04-23 20:08:54 <jchp> well it isn't the inflation you desire i mean
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2182 2013-04-23 20:09:12 <petertodd> BlueMatt: heh, I'll do a git push tomorrow night so you can see my code. Where is yours?
2183 2013-04-23 20:09:20 <privtrans> urslshell65... sorry if it seems off topic, only relevant in the sense if the actual code enforces a hard upper limit, which cannot in practice be increased.
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2185 2013-04-23 20:09:37 <BlueMatt> petertodd: local because its really mid-state
2186 2013-04-23 20:10:05 <privtrans> and apparently the hard limit cannot be changed, so I got my answer... thanks to all.
2187 2013-04-23 20:10:07 <jchp> the point is that a 2% end-run inflation rate is undesirable because whatever "infation" rate you choose is the percentage of GDP you waste
2188 2013-04-23 20:10:18 <petertodd> BlueMatt: same really, although I've also got a separate (dumb) replace-by-fee implemented
2189 2013-04-23 20:10:33 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2190 2013-04-23 20:10:33 <jchp> in energy costs. 2% inflation won't fix anything, you'll just be throwing it all away by burning fossil fuels or transistors or whatever
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2195 2013-04-23 20:13:47 <TD> urlshell65: it's just wrong. there's no TypeScript in bitcoin
2196 2013-04-23 20:13:55 <BlueMatt> petertodd: ahh, I hadnt been bothering with replacement
2197 2013-04-23 20:14:19 <urlshell65> TD: but can you read it in the stats popup?
2198 2013-04-23 20:14:20 <BlueMatt> petertodd: (I started before the whole replacement "discussion" started)
2199 2013-04-23 20:14:47 m00p has joined
2200 2013-04-23 20:15:32 <sipa> urlshell65: what are you talking about?
2201 2013-04-23 20:15:58 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Ah, sorry, I didn't know. Parts of my design are pretty geared towards making replacement efficient.
2202 2013-04-23 20:16:12 <TD> urlshell65: yes.
2203 2013-04-23 20:16:23 <TD> urlshell65: i don't think it matters. you can just look at the code itself. it's c++
2204 2013-04-23 20:16:49 <sipa> i wonder why github misdetects the language
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2207 2013-04-23 20:17:43 <sipa> anyway, it's C++
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2209 2013-04-23 20:18:01 <BlueMatt> petertodd: ahh, mine is more about doing proper minfee, etc calculation
2210 2013-04-23 20:19:00 <urlshell65> TD: http://pastie.org/7704714
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2213 2013-04-23 20:19:51 <sipa> urlshell65: ok, so github misdetects the language or has some bug?
2214 2013-04-23 20:19:56 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Mine doesn't even have the concept of priority, ditching all that for the assumption that miners want to be economically rational, subject to transactions having some marginal cost per KB.
2215 2013-04-23 20:20:10 <BlueMatt> ewwwwww
2216 2013-04-23 20:20:18 <urlshell65> sipa: it's a possibility
2217 2013-04-23 20:20:30 <sipa> urlshell65: what other possibility is there?
2218 2013-04-23 20:20:32 <BlueMatt> petertodd: but miners DONT
2219 2013-04-23 20:20:46 <sipa> BlueMatt: not right now
2220 2013-04-23 20:21:00 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Free transactions are supportable, but it'll be very clear that you are giving away potential earnings by accepting them. :P
2221 2013-04-23 20:21:02 <BlueMatt> yes, and there is no reason to rush them into it...
2222 2013-04-23 20:21:02 <urlshell65> urlshell65: it's the wrong project (that's why I asked)
2223 2013-04-23 20:21:04 Skav has joined
2224 2013-04-23 20:21:05 <sipa> (not saying it's good or that that will happen, but it's certainly a possibility at some point in the future)
2225 2013-04-23 20:21:09 <sipa> urlshell65: it's not
2226 2013-04-23 20:21:16 <BlueMatt> petertodd: umm...no, its already an option in bitcoin.conf
2227 2013-04-23 20:21:50 <petertodd> petertodd: As I said, it's a mempool rewrite.
2228 2013-04-23 20:21:56 <BlueMatt> wat?
2229 2013-04-23 20:22:04 urlshell65 has quit (Quit: bye now)
2230 2013-04-23 20:22:16 <petertodd> BlueMatt: CTxMemPool's basic data structures all change
2231 2013-04-23 20:22:18 Gnaf has joined
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2233 2013-04-23 20:23:01 <BlueMatt> anyway, having some concept of priority to support the system for some small fraction of transactions is an important option
2234 2013-04-23 20:23:03 <sipa> petertodd: switching the mempool to unconditional-replace-by-fee sounds like a very invasive change
2235 2013-04-23 20:23:34 <BlueMatt> petertodd: hmm, nope not here, anyway I suppose Ill let you finish and see whether it has support and then restart if its gonna be merged
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2239 2013-04-23 20:24:16 <petertodd> sorry, I gotta go, later
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2242 2013-04-23 20:25:17 * BlueMatt mus tbe missing something, isnt there already a map from prevout -> txn...why does that need a rewrite for replacement to be effecient?
2243 2013-04-23 20:26:25 <sipa> that i don't see either
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2245 2013-04-23 20:27:20 <BlueMatt> oh, no sorry its prevout->input
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2258 2013-04-23 20:31:57 <TD> sipa: more than invasive, i'd say
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2260 2013-04-23 20:32:20 PK has joined
2261 2013-04-23 20:32:42 <TD> offtopic amusing waste of time: http://www.pointerpointer.com/
2262 2013-04-23 20:34:21 <jgarzik> sipa: agree
2263 2013-04-23 20:34:37 <HM2> what options do you have to run bitcoind under these days to stop it eating many gigs of ram
2264 2013-04-23 20:34:58 <TD> HM2: use the latest code from master and it's much improved
2265 2013-04-23 20:35:03 <nsh> turn off networking
2266 2013-04-23 20:35:11 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2267 2013-04-23 20:35:14 <HM2> server=0 atm
2268 2013-04-23 20:35:30 i2pRelay has joined
2269 2013-04-23 20:35:36 <jgarzik> sipa: on a related topic, I like Gavin's idea of sorting mempool like a huge block, fee per kb/priority, and dropping and/or not-relaying transactions that fall off the bottom once an overall size limit is reached.
2270 2013-04-23 20:35:51 <HM2> it's gone straight in to swap
2271 2013-04-23 20:35:52 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: implemented
2272 2013-04-23 20:36:00 <jgarzik> (where size limit is clearly many times larger than your average block.  say... 144MB)
2273 2013-04-23 20:36:04 <TD> HM2: that sounds odd. my bitcoind uses a few hundred megs of ram with listening connections
2274 2013-04-23 20:36:06 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: neat!  pull req#?
2275 2013-04-23 20:36:25 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: well, working on child-pays-for-parent (eventualy) and such, then you'll get your pull
2276 2013-04-23 20:36:39 <HM2> I'm going to run out of swap imminently as well, this is the 0.8.1 binary off sourceforge
2277 2013-04-23 20:37:19 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: wasnt there talk of 0.8.2 at one point?
2278 2013-04-23 20:37:50 <sipa> we should do a 0.8.2 soon
2279 2013-04-23 20:38:16 <HM2> might be txindex i guess
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2281 2013-04-23 20:38:25 <sipa> txindex hardly adds memory usage
2282 2013-04-23 20:38:33 <sipa> many network connections does, on 0.8.1
2283 2013-04-23 20:38:38 <sipa> especially people syncing from you
2284 2013-04-23 20:38:44 <Ferroh> Given that you have 10% of the total network hash rate, what is the expected time to get 6 blocks in a row?
2285 2013-04-23 20:38:45 polrpaul_ is now known as polrpaul
2286 2013-04-23 20:38:49 <HM2> maxconnections=8, server=0
2287 2013-04-23 20:39:11 <HM2> went straight through 512MB of RAM and up ate 500MB of swap
2288 2013-04-23 20:39:29 <sipa> server=0 is kinda pointless (and ignored) for bitcoind
2289 2013-04-23 20:39:50 <HM2> ok
2290 2013-04-23 20:40:07 <sipa> Ferroh: 19 years
2291 2013-04-23 20:40:21 <Ferroh> because 0.1^6*10mins = 19 years i guess
2292 2013-04-23 20:40:27 <Ferroh> How confident are you that is correct?
2293 2013-04-23 20:40:52 <sipa> HM2: git head has much better memory usage, if you care to try
2294 2013-04-23 20:41:03 <HM2> think i'll have to
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2297 2013-04-23 20:42:11 <sipa> 768 MB RES here, 263 connections, running for 15 days with maxsendbuffer=3000
2298 2013-04-23 20:42:24 <jgarzik> sipa: +1 on 0.8.2 soon
2299 2013-04-23 20:42:38 <sipa> bugs i like to see fixed: filedescriptor issue on oSX
2300 2013-04-23 20:43:12 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2301 2013-04-23 20:43:15 <HM2> sipa, is that githead?
2302 2013-04-23 20:43:19 GlitchNZ has joined
2303 2013-04-23 20:43:24 <sipa> HM2: of 15 days ago :)
2304 2013-04-23 20:43:30 <jgarzik> 100 connections,  8352 jgarzik   39  19 2042m 430m  19m S  3.9  5.6   1451:14 bitcoin-start
2305 2013-04-23 20:43:35 <jgarzik> 99 connections, 13115 jgarzik   39  19 1908m 415m  10m S  5.9 10.7   1861:15 bitcoind
2306 2013-04-23 20:43:40 <sipa> note that with the default send buffer size, it's less
2307 2013-04-23 20:43:44 i2pRelay has joined
2308 2013-04-23 20:43:44 <jgarzik> uptime... 2 weeks?
2309 2013-04-23 20:43:52 <HM2> sipa: how do them numbers even work out? 4MB send/recv buffers x 263 is more than that?
2310 2013-04-23 20:44:11 <jgarzik> HM2: we try not to keep huge, pre-sized static buffers around
2311 2013-04-23 20:44:13 <sipa> HM2: they're not statically allocated
2312 2013-04-23 20:44:16 <sipa> ps -eo lstart,pid,user,args | fgrep bitcoind | (read; while read WDAY MON DAY TIM YEA REST; do AGE=$(($(date "+%s") - $(date "+%s" --date "$DAY $MON $YEA $TIM"))); echo "$AGE $REST"; done)
2313 2013-04-23 20:44:26 <sipa> -> time bitcoind is running, in seconds
2314 2013-04-23 20:44:32 JDuke128_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2315 2013-04-23 20:44:39 <HM2> ok
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2317 2013-04-23 20:45:24 <sipa> worst case in theory is probably more like maxconnections*(maxsendbuffer+maxrecvbuffer+3) MB
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2320 2013-04-23 20:45:42  has joined
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2322 2013-04-23 20:45:42  has joined
2323 2013-04-23 20:45:57 <sipa> + db cache, block headers, orphan pools, mempool, sigcache, ...
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2327 2013-04-23 20:50:52 <jgarzik> sipa: I've been thinking about turning block headers into a cache
2328 2013-04-23 20:51:09 <jgarzik> sipa: cannot walk a nice pointer chain, but it frees RAM for old, rarely seen blocks
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2330 2013-04-23 20:51:24 <jgarzik> sipa: haven't surveyed all uses, to see if there are frequent full-chain walks, however
2331 2013-04-23 20:51:37 <sipa> not sure that's worth it at this point
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2333 2013-04-23 20:51:55 <sipa> it would complicate things
2334 2013-04-23 20:52:21 <jgarzik> 40MB isn't much, I suppose
2335 2013-04-23 20:52:40 <sipa> what i do want to do is get rid of the pnext pointer in the block headers, and separate blocktree info from current-best-chain info
2336 2013-04-23 20:52:56 <sipa> so you just keep a vector of pointers to the blocks in the current best chain
2337 2013-04-23 20:53:02 halvors has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2338 2013-04-23 20:53:11 <sipa> that also means you can do O(1) jumping to a particular height
2339 2013-04-23 20:53:27 <jgarzik> +1
2340 2013-04-23 20:53:31 <sipa> but i'm waiting on the core/main split-refactor before doing that
2341 2013-04-23 20:53:34 <jgarzik> sipa: already did that in pynode, in fact ;p
2342 2013-04-23 20:53:47 <sipa> good
2343 2013-04-23 20:53:58 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2344 2013-04-23 20:54:04 <TD> bitcoinj uses an mmapped ring buffer to hold headers
2345 2013-04-23 20:54:05 Belxjander has joined
2346 2013-04-23 20:54:09 <jgarzik> sipa: pynode keeps a height index, where each height is an array of block hashes at that height.  current-base is index 0 of that array, and most arrays are size 1.
2347 2013-04-23 20:54:22 <sipa> ah, no, that is not what i mean
2348 2013-04-23 20:54:46 <sipa> i want to separate blocktree data from the current blockchain
2349 2013-04-23 20:55:02 <sipa> so the tree is just represented by the block headers, each pointing to its parent
2350 2013-04-23 20:55:27 <sipa> and separately, keep a single height->header map for blocks in the main chain
2351 2013-04-23 20:55:45 <sipa> afaik there is no need to ever index a non-connected block by its height
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2355 2013-04-23 20:57:57 <jgarzik> sipa: ok
2356 2013-04-23 20:57:58 <HM2> ok
2357 2013-04-23 20:58:02 <HM2> githead built, thanks sipa
2358 2013-04-23 20:58:04 wirehead has joined
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2360 2013-04-23 20:58:09 * jgarzik -> bike ride, bbiaw
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2373 2013-04-23 21:05:20 <Luke-Jr> sipa: indeed, it is to avoid code changes
2374 2013-04-23 21:06:03 <TD> Luke-Jr: what replaced bip 20?
2375 2013-04-23 21:06:07 <TD> i'm trying to find the latest spec for the uri scheme
2376 2013-04-23 21:06:13 <Luke-Jr> BIP 21?
2377 2013-04-23 21:06:28 <TD> heh
2378 2013-04-23 21:06:33 <TD> i suppose i should have tried that
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2382 2013-04-23 21:07:38 <Luke-Jr> sipa: is that a problem?
2383 2013-04-23 21:07:45 <sipa> no, just cosmetic
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2406 2013-04-23 21:18:40 <jgm> Any way I can convince bitcoind to verify a raw transaction for me (specifically to check the signatures) but not transmit it?
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2411 2013-04-23 21:20:23 <sipa> jgm: signrawtransaction will tell you whether it's fully signed or not
2412 2013-04-23 21:20:31 <sipa> i'm not sure it will actually verify it
2413 2013-04-23 21:20:38 freefox has joined
2414 2013-04-23 21:20:44 <sipa> or to what extent
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2416 2013-04-23 21:21:24 <jgm> Yeah it just blasts any existing signatures and creates its own
2417 2013-04-23 21:22:00 <jgm> I suppose that if I just transmit the block I'll work out soon enough if they're valid or not
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2421 2013-04-23 21:23:25 <sipa> the transaction, you mean
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2424 2013-04-23 21:24:01 Nothing4You is now known as Nothing4You|
2425 2013-04-23 21:24:04 Nothing4You is now known as !N4Y@Nothing4You.w.tf-w.tf|Nothing4You
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2428 2013-04-23 21:24:32 <jouke> jgm: when you try to transmit it, it will fail when your own node won't accept it
2429 2013-04-23 21:25:22 <jgm> sipa: sorry yeah transaction
2430 2013-04-23 21:25:35 ThomasV has joined
2431 2013-04-23 21:25:35 <jgm> jouke: ah, guess that it worked then
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2436 2013-04-23 21:27:23 <sipa> yes, sendrawtransaction really just means "push to my own mempool", which fails if it's invalid, etc
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2449 2013-04-23 21:32:34 * HM2 wonders why the debian libboost-system package doesn't install a symlink for the library
2450 2013-04-23 21:32:37 <gavinandresen> sipa jgarzik BlueMatt : 0.8.2 is a good idea.  What showstopper bugs do we have? Anybody fixed the run-out-of-file-descriptors problem?
2451 2013-04-23 21:32:52 halvors has joined
2452 2013-04-23 21:33:14 <sipa> gavinandresen: i'm benchmarking now whether max_open_files makes any difference at all
2453 2013-04-23 21:33:24 halvors has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2454 2013-04-23 21:33:49 <sipa> testing with 64
2455 2013-04-23 21:33:56 stochasm has joined
2456 2013-04-23 21:34:26 <gavinandresen> sipa: cool.  10% slower is my "I don't care" number
2457 2013-04-23 21:34:30 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: latest block-tester is failing on wine, probably not a problem but at least needs to be confirmed to not effect windows before anything
2458 2013-04-23 21:34:31 halvors has joined
2459 2013-04-23 21:34:45 <sipa> gavinandresen: ACK; i expect it to be less than that
2460 2013-04-23 21:34:51 nomailing1 has joined
2461 2013-04-23 21:34:54 <sipa> (i expect 0 difference)
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2466 2013-04-23 21:37:25 <gavinandresen> I think the -salvagewallet not working on an encrypted wallet needs to be fixed for 0.8.2, also
2467 2013-04-23 21:37:31 halvors has joined
2468 2013-04-23 21:38:20 <halvors> How do i build Bitcoin-qt on Windows using Qt Creator?
2469 2013-04-23 21:39:00 <BlueMatt> you probably dont
2470 2013-04-23 21:39:09 <sipa> halvors: afaik, only two people have succeeded in doing that
2471 2013-04-23 21:39:13 <BlueMatt> though I believe one or two people have done it
2472 2013-04-23 21:39:17 <sipa> diki and Diapolo
2473 2013-04-23 21:39:25 <jchp> you could use a linux image and build windows using the gitian script, no?
2474 2013-04-23 21:39:28 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2475 2013-04-23 21:39:35 viperhr has quit (Read error: No route to host)
2476 2013-04-23 21:39:40 <sipa> jgm: it may take a while to set that up, but yes
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2481 2013-04-23 21:41:10 <jchp> yeah documentation is pretty slim, i haven't tried building in windows, but i'm setting up gitian right now to see if i can build a verifiable livecd for bitcoin
2482 2013-04-23 21:41:18 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2483 2013-04-23 21:41:22 <jchp> haven't tried building windows bitcoin-qt i mean
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2486 2013-04-23 21:46:10 <sipa> gavinandresen: agree... though i'd like to see salvaging work better in any case
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2494 2013-04-23 21:48:36 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: nevermind, cant trivially reproduce on windows, its just a wine issue
2495 2013-04-23 21:48:36 <sipa> gavinandresen, gmaxwell: in case opening the database env fails, moving it to database.$TIMESTAMP and retrying... how do you feel about that?
2496 2013-04-23 21:49:42 <gavinandresen> sipa: sounds like a good idea.
2497 2013-04-23 21:50:27 <nsh> ohai gavin
2498 2013-04-23 21:50:39 <nsh> i think i listened to your podcast with some german guy last night
2499 2013-04-23 21:50:44 Sealy has joined
2500 2013-04-23 21:50:49 MiningBuddy has joined
2501 2013-04-23 21:50:52 <gavinandresen> nsh: omega tau?  I like that one.
2502 2013-04-23 21:50:52 <nsh> was probably linked from the wiki
2503 2013-04-23 21:50:55 <nsh> yeah
2504 2013-04-23 21:50:56 freefox has quit (Quit: freefox)
2505 2013-04-23 21:50:58 MiningBuddy- has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2506 2013-04-23 21:50:59 <nsh> it was very good
2507 2013-04-23 21:51:18 <nsh> (i may have fallen asleep before it finished though, due to pain relief)
2508 2013-04-23 21:51:28 <nsh> (probably worth a second run anyway)
2509 2013-04-23 21:51:46 Tantadruj has joined
2510 2013-04-23 21:53:01 <sipa> gavinandresen: and deleting it after detach?
2511 2013-04-23 21:53:37 xenesis has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2512 2013-04-23 21:53:42 <sipa> (reason: user shuts down nicely, switches to different build, gets error because of incompatible database log)
2513 2013-04-23 21:53:55 <sipa> while there's nothing useful in it after detaching anyway
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2515 2013-04-23 21:54:04 Belxjander has joined
2516 2013-04-23 21:54:26 <gavinandresen> sipa: yes, deleting after detach should prevent issues, and I can't think of any reason not to.
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2525 2013-04-23 21:58:34 <gmaxwell> ack on renaming the database directory.
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2528 2013-04-23 21:59:09 <gmaxwell> So on the file descriptior thing, I think we need to lower the leveldb max and also do something about increasing the ulimit on OSX.
2529 2013-04-23 21:59:17 <gmaxwell> I know nothing about increasing the ulimit on OSX
2530 2013-04-23 21:59:27 <gmaxwell> otherwise we need to reduce the maximum concurrent connections...
2531 2013-04-23 21:59:53 freefox has joined
2532 2013-04-23 21:59:59 <gmaxwell> because even with a fairly low maximum in leveldb we're going to run out there with connections taking up half our descriptors.
2533 2013-04-23 22:00:41 <sipa> lowering filedescriptors causes my chainstate rebuild speed to drop
2534 2013-04-23 22:00:55 <sipa> but i haven't done enough tests to make sure it's significant
2535 2013-04-23 22:01:09 <sipa> still, i observe almost no file descriptors being open
2536 2013-04-23 22:01:21 <sipa> so it must be during very short periods only
2537 2013-04-23 22:01:25 richcollins has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2538 2013-04-23 22:01:29 <halvors> Why?
2539 2013-04-23 22:01:30 <halvors> sipa:
2540 2013-04-23 22:01:31 blaeks has joined
2541 2013-04-23 22:01:34 <gmaxwell> you can get lots open persistently
2542 2013-04-23 22:01:56 <sipa> maybe i shouldn't do an artificial chainstate rebuild, but a full reindex
2543 2013-04-23 22:02:44 <gmaxwell> to get lots open I just did a getblock / getrawtransaction sequentially on the whole chain on a node with txindex.
2544 2013-04-23 22:02:51 <gmaxwell> and that got me ~500 that stayed around.
2545 2013-04-23 22:03:08 <Happzz> dafuq is people talking about may 1th?
2546 2013-04-23 22:03:09 <Happzz> dafuq is people talking about may 1tth?
2547 2013-04-23 22:03:12 <Happzz> grr. 15th
2548 2013-04-23 22:03:21 <Happzz> what's scheduled for may 15th?
2549 2013-04-23 22:03:29 <sipa> bitcoin.org/may15.html
2550 2013-04-23 22:03:35 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2551 2013-04-23 22:03:48 Belxjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2552 2013-04-23 22:04:05 <Happzz> is 0.8.0 "safe"?
2553 2013-04-23 22:04:06 i2pRelay has joined
2554 2013-04-23 22:04:08 <sipa> yes
2555 2013-04-23 22:04:12 <sipa> if you don't solomine
2556 2013-04-23 22:04:22 <sipa> gavinandresen: i think we should inform linux distro maintainers that any <0.8 version in a repos is a no-go
2557 2013-04-23 22:04:32 <BlueMatt> sipa: good luck with that
2558 2013-04-23 22:04:44 <sipa> BlueMatt: we can't do more than inform, but we should try at least
2559 2013-04-23 22:04:56 <gavinandresen> good idea.  How do "we" find them?
2560 2013-04-23 22:04:57 <sipa> "WILL STOP WORKING IN 3 WEEKS" is a pretty convincing argument, imho
2561 2013-04-23 22:05:00 bitexchanger has joined
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2564 2013-04-23 22:05:11 <bitexchanger> What happens if people dont update before may 15th ?
2565 2013-04-23 22:05:11 <BlueMatt> see: debian's response to luke informing them that the shipping 0.3.24 is vulnerable to quite a few publicly announced security vulnerabilities
2566 2013-04-23 22:05:18 Blitzboom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2567 2013-04-23 22:05:26 <gmaxwell> I think debian has become less stupid now.
2568 2013-04-23 22:05:36 <BlueMatt> heh
2569 2013-04-23 22:05:38 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: no
2570 2013-04-23 22:05:39 <sipa> gmaxwell: wait, what?
2571 2013-04-23 22:05:52 <sipa> gmaxwell: getblock / getrawtransaction cause high filedescriptor usage?
2572 2013-04-23 22:05:55 BurtyBB has joined
2573 2013-04-23 22:05:56 <purplebandana> !facts
2574 2013-04-23 22:05:56 <gribble> To see a nice sortable web view of all factoids, click here: http://gribble.dreamhosters.com/viewfactoids.php?db=%23bitcoin-dev || To see a list of the most popular factoids, run !rank || To search factoids, run !factoids search <yoursearchterm>
2575 2013-04-23 22:06:04 <sipa> that should just be open file/close file
2576 2013-04-23 22:06:12 MaybeJustNothing has joined
2577 2013-04-23 22:06:14 <bitexchanger> 0.97BTC to the first person that fully explains what happens if people don't update their bitcoin client before may 15th. Do they lose all their coins?
2578 2013-04-23 22:06:20 <gmaxwell> sipa: not on the blocks themselves but the txindex.
2579 2013-04-23 22:06:24 Blitzboom has joined
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2581 2013-04-23 22:06:24 Blitzboom has joined
2582 2013-04-23 22:06:36 <purplebandana> Has anyone had any problem running Armory? Planning on using it as my primary wallet client.
2583 2013-04-23 22:06:44 <jaakkos> bitexchanger: no they won't lose their coins.
2584 2013-04-23 22:06:44 <Happzz> bitexchanger uh sipa just answered it
2585 2013-04-23 22:06:56 * Happzz votes 0.97 for sipa!
2586 2013-04-23 22:07:01 [Elementum] has joined
2587 2013-04-23 22:07:02 <BlueMatt> bitexchanger: its very well sumarized at bitcoin.org/may15.html
2588 2013-04-23 22:07:03 <gmaxwell> bitexchanger: There is a nice url above explaining it: http://bitcoin.org/may15.html
2589 2013-04-23 22:07:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: ah
2590 2013-04-23 22:07:15 Sealy has joined
2591 2013-04-23 22:07:23 <BlueMatt> purplebandana: ask on #bitcoin ?
2592 2013-04-23 22:07:27 holorga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2593 2013-04-23 22:07:41 <bitexchanger> The url doesnt say what happens if you don't upgrade before may 15th
2594 2013-04-23 22:07:42 Wrenuld has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2595 2013-04-23 22:07:45 <Happzz> bitexchanger now pay up.
2596 2013-04-23 22:07:47 <sipa> or on #bitcoin-armory
2597 2013-04-23 22:07:57 <bitexchanger> it says you will be out of sync with the network
2598 2013-04-23 22:07:59 FlyingLeap has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2599 2013-04-23 22:08:06 <bitexchanger> so would it be fixable if you were left behind ?
2600 2013-04-23 22:08:07 <gavinandresen> If you don't upgrade before the 15'th, then, at some indeterminate time in the future, you will get the message:  InvalidChainFound: Warning: Displayed transactions may not be correct! You may need to upgrade, or other nodes may need to upgrade.
2601 2013-04-23 22:08:12 <BlueMatt> bitexchanger: that link has a nice link to http://bitcoin.org/chainfork.html
2602 2013-04-23 22:08:15 FlyingLeap has joined
2603 2013-04-23 22:08:25 freewil has joined
2604 2013-04-23 22:08:37 <BlueMatt> what happened then can happen again, which is the reason for the may15 stuff
2605 2013-04-23 22:08:42 <purplebandana> bitexchanger, the terrorists would win
2606 2013-04-23 22:08:45 <bitexchanger> So essentially if someone was to not upgrade in time, they would not lose their coins. Correct?
2607 2013-04-23 22:08:47 BurtyB has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2608 2013-04-23 22:08:47 Scrat has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2609 2013-04-23 22:08:48 xnyhps has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2610 2013-04-23 22:08:48 peddy has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2611 2013-04-23 22:08:51 <BlueMatt> NO
2612 2013-04-23 22:08:53 <BlueMatt> read the links
2613 2013-04-23 22:08:55 xnyhps has joined
2614 2013-04-23 22:08:58 <gmaxwell> bitexchanger: it will be fixable by upgrading to a new version.
2615 2013-04-23 22:09:02 <bitexchanger> Okay. So who gets the 0.97 bitcoin ?
2616 2013-04-23 22:09:04 <sipa> bitexchanger: they may be vulnerable to accepting double-spent coins
2617 2013-04-23 22:09:05 <bitexchanger> I stick to my word
2618 2013-04-23 22:09:12 <bitexchanger> Was it sipa who answered it first?
2619 2013-04-23 22:09:17 <sipa> no need
2620 2013-04-23 22:09:22 <bitexchanger> You sure?
2621 2013-04-23 22:09:23 peddy has joined
2622 2013-04-23 22:09:26 <sipa> yes
2623 2013-04-23 22:09:31 <bitexchanger> Very kind of you
2624 2013-04-23 22:09:41 <bitexchanger> <3
2625 2013-04-23 22:09:47 richcollins has joined
2626 2013-04-23 22:09:49 <bitexchanger> Thanks for answering my stupid question
2627 2013-04-23 22:10:14 Wrenuld has joined
2628 2013-04-23 22:10:21 <BlueMatt> bitexchanger: sipa deserves more donations, usually...
2629 2013-04-23 22:10:31 <BlueMatt> bitexchanger: he has a public address at bitcoin.sipa.be :P
2630 2013-04-23 22:10:42 <bitexchanger> Fun fact: You're the second person to deny a free bitcoin. Someone earlier was complaining about not being able to get involved with bitcoins, but rejected a free bitcoin from me to get started. I love this community :)
2631 2013-04-23 22:10:44 * gavinandresen votes for giving sipa some coin
2632 2013-04-23 22:11:19 <TD> i think we should give sipa 80,000 satoshis per second, in honour of his work on libsecp256k1
2633 2013-04-23 22:11:26 workman has left ()
2634 2013-04-23 22:11:32 <bitexchanger> I don't see a bitcoin address on that url, or I'm blind
2635 2013-04-23 22:11:36 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2636 2013-04-23 22:11:39 <bitexchanger> doh
2637 2013-04-23 22:11:40 <bitexchanger> i see it now
2638 2013-04-23 22:11:41 <sipa> TD: haha
2639 2013-04-23 22:11:56 freefox has quit (Quit: freefox)
2640 2013-04-23 22:12:01 <gavinandresen> that'd be a good incentive to speed it up....
2641 2013-04-23 22:12:08 i2pRelay has joined
2642 2013-04-23 22:12:17 BurtyBB is now known as BurtyB
2643 2013-04-23 22:12:18 <bitexchanger> Sent you the 0.97 bitcoin to your donation address, Sipa
2644 2013-04-23 22:12:19 <bitexchanger> <3
2645 2013-04-23 22:12:20 <TD> actually 80k sigs per second is the last benchmark, apparently. on sipas workstation
2646 2013-04-23 22:12:26 <TD> not an arbitrary choice :)
2647 2013-04-23 22:12:26 Guest50904 is now known as gaantr2
2648 2013-04-23 22:12:27 <sipa> bitexchanger: thank you very much!
2649 2013-04-23 22:12:31 <bitexchanger> Thank you
2650 2013-04-23 22:12:36 <TD> bitexchanger: nice, generous of you!
2651 2013-04-23 22:12:47 <TD> now sipa can afford to go party hard for a night in zurich :)
2652 2013-04-23 22:12:47 Scrat has joined
2653 2013-04-23 22:12:51 <bitexchanger> I'm not familiar with this channel. You are a common contributor, I'm assuming ?
2654 2013-04-23 22:12:53 <sipa> haha
2655 2013-04-23 22:13:00 <BlueMatt> TD: well, maybe half a night
2656 2013-04-23 22:13:11 <gmaxwell> bitexchanger: Yes, sipa is a very important contributor.
2657 2013-04-23 22:13:12 <TD> sipa is like a tank. a tank made of code.
2658 2013-04-23 22:13:23 <TD> or something
2659 2013-04-23 22:13:26 <sipa> hmpf, not sure if that is a compliment :)
2660 2013-04-23 22:13:27 <gavinandresen> sipa's written almost as much core code as satoshi, last time I checked
2661 2013-04-23 22:13:32 <TD> yes probably
2662 2013-04-23 22:13:32 <gmaxwell> A take made of code that fires code bullets.
2663 2013-04-23 22:13:33 <bitexchanger> Ahh.. so the money went somewhere good :)
2664 2013-04-23 22:13:37 <BlueMatt> TD: that and spending an disturbingly high amount of time answering questions on irc
2665 2013-04-23 22:14:11 mughat_2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2666 2013-04-23 22:14:13 <sipa> i should stop doing that :)
2667 2013-04-23 22:14:21 <bitexchanger> Every time I have some spare bitcoins I will send them to you, sipa!
2668 2013-04-23 22:14:35 <bitexchanger> I donated 2btc to the pirate bay the other night because I had no idea where else to send them
2669 2013-04-23 22:14:36 runeks has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2670 2013-04-23 22:14:37 mughat_2 has joined
2671 2013-04-23 22:14:52 taha has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2672 2013-04-23 22:15:01 <sipa> gavinandresen: i checked recently how many lines of core code were last touched by satoshi still... still quite a lot, afaik
2673 2013-04-23 22:15:04 Impaler has joined
2674 2013-04-23 22:15:08 * TD definitely prefers sipa gets it to the pirate bay
2675 2013-04-23 22:15:18 <nsh> what's the total codebase size?
2676 2013-04-23 22:15:19 runeks has joined
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2678 2013-04-23 22:16:11 <bitexchanger> Maybe you guys could answer one more question for me.. If my wallet is encrypted with an 12 character mixed password, how hard would it be for someone to crack it?
2679 2013-04-23 22:16:24 <sipa> bitexchanger: all depends on how it was generated
2680 2013-04-23 22:16:24 chorao has joined
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2682 2013-04-23 22:16:25 chorao has joined
2683 2013-04-23 22:16:28 <gmaxwell> bitexchanger: how did you generate the password?
2684 2013-04-23 22:16:29 <TD> 12 characters is quite a lot
2685 2013-04-23 22:16:30 jaequery has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2686 2013-04-23 22:16:38 <bitexchanger> Random characters
2687 2013-04-23 22:16:47 <sipa> bitexchanger: if it's truly uniformly random (= computer generator), it's very secure
2688 2013-04-23 22:16:48 <BlueMatt> pretty damn near impossible
2689 2013-04-23 22:16:52 <gmaxwell> TD: but trivial if its "b1texchanger"
2690 2013-04-23 22:17:02 Wrenuld has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2691 2013-04-23 22:17:12 <TD> brute force md5/sha256 becomes infeasible around 7-8 chars, iirc
2692 2013-04-23 22:17:12 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2693 2013-04-23 22:17:19 <TD> what's the kdf bitcoin-qt uses again?
2694 2013-04-23 22:17:20 nomailing1 has quit (Quit: nomailing1)
2695 2013-04-23 22:17:24 <gmaxwell> TD: hah. no.  But we use a good KDF.
2696 2013-04-23 22:17:26 <bitexchanger> Unless someone has a quantum computer?
2697 2013-04-23 22:17:29 <sipa> TD: repeated sha512
2698 2013-04-23 22:17:41 <sipa> for 1s, afaik
2699 2013-04-23 22:17:43 <sipa> or 0.1s
2700 2013-04-23 22:17:45 Insu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2701 2013-04-23 22:17:47 <gmaxwell> TD: minimum 25000 iterations, but normally 100ms on the setting machine.
2702 2013-04-23 22:17:57 <TD> gmaxwell: ok, by "infeasible" i mean the guys cracking passwords in bulk that leak from websites. if you're cracking a wallet you can scale up effort as appropriate.
2703 2013-04-23 22:18:00 <TD> ok
2704 2013-04-23 22:18:25 * BlueMatt is dissapointed that it only takes repeated sha512 + aes to brute-force a wallet, instead of repeated sha512+aes+ecdsa mult
2705 2013-04-23 22:18:32 Insu has joined
2706 2013-04-23 22:18:40 <BlueMatt> but, hell, thats what y'all get for letting me write code :P
2707 2013-04-23 22:18:45 Wrenuld has joined
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2710 2013-04-23 22:19:40 <gmaxwell> TD: You can download rainbow tables for md5 for alpha for 10 characters, and for alphanum for 9.
2711 2013-04-23 22:19:49 one_zero has joined
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2713 2013-04-23 22:20:48 <TD> yes, assuming salted passwords
2714 2013-04-23 22:21:00 <Scrat> how many iterations does the KDF do on a normal 3ghz i7?
2715 2013-04-23 22:21:13 Irencus has quit ()
2716 2013-04-23 22:21:22 <sipa> 200k or so?
2717 2013-04-23 22:21:23 <gmaxwell> Scrat: I'll take a wild-ass-guess of about 200k
2718 2013-04-23 22:21:37 <sipa> !hi5 gmaxwell
2719 2013-04-23 22:21:38 <gribble> Error: "hi5" is not a valid command.
2720 2013-04-23 22:21:47 <sipa> (well, at least if we turn out to be right...)
2721 2013-04-23 22:22:03 <gmaxwell> TD: Indeed, sorry you threw me by saying "md5", since thats not salted by itself. :) (md5crypt is a whole n'other matter, as it's saled and iterated)
2722 2013-04-23 22:22:07 <bitexchanger> sipa.. You must be sitting on a ton of coin :D
2723 2013-04-23 22:22:11 <Scrat> sipa's and gmaxwell's neurons are quantum entangled
2724 2013-04-23 22:22:21 <Scrat> and no it doesn't break causality god dammit
2725 2013-04-23 22:22:27 <sipa> Scrat: lol
2726 2013-04-23 22:22:28 <TD> an adaptive kdf would be nice
2727 2013-04-23 22:22:36 <TD> the code jim wrote for bitcoinj uses some fixed scrypt parameters
2728 2013-04-23 22:22:46 <sipa> TD: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102349.0 ?
2729 2013-04-23 22:22:50 <TD> which use a recommendation made in 2009
2730 2013-04-23 22:23:24 <sipa> well, not really a KDF as you can't (fully) choose the password
2731 2013-04-23 22:23:28 <TD> yes i'm not sure how you'd make scrypt adaptive. i'm sure it's possible.
2732 2013-04-23 22:23:35 <TD> just not something i ever looked in to
2733 2013-04-23 22:23:35 bitexchanger has left ()
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2740 2013-04-23 22:25:35 <gmaxwell> TD: certantly you can adapt it like we adapt our KDF, benchmark and save the parameters.
2741 2013-04-23 22:25:50 <TD> that's true
2742 2013-04-23 22:25:58 Diapolis_ has joined
2743 2013-04-23 22:26:06 <sipa> afaik you can pretty much independently choose memory and time constraints
2744 2013-04-23 22:26:14 <sipa> so choose for both how much you can spare
2745 2013-04-23 22:26:16 [psy] has left ()
2746 2013-04-23 22:26:19 <sipa> and store it
2747 2013-04-23 22:26:34 <TD> yes it's stored in the wallet already
2748 2013-04-23 22:26:43 * TD needs to read up on these params
2749 2013-04-23 22:26:59 <gmaxwell> I think etotheipi asks the user.
2750 2013-04-23 22:26:59 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
2751 2013-04-23 22:27:08 one_zero has joined
2752 2013-04-23 22:27:12 <gmaxwell> (doesn't seem like a grand idea to me)
2753 2013-04-23 22:27:26 graingert has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2754 2013-04-23 22:27:33 qwertyoruiop has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2755 2013-04-23 22:27:38 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: thanks for the konsole recommendation, Ive already used monitor for activity :)
2756 2013-04-23 22:27:42 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2757 2013-04-23 22:28:13 i2pRelay has joined
2758 2013-04-23 22:28:16 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: :) Saves me a lot of time. "How else could I kiboize IRC so effectively"
2759 2013-04-23 22:28:18 Sealy has quit (Quit: Sealy)
2760 2013-04-23 22:28:32 Diapolis has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2761 2013-04-23 22:28:54 qwertyoruiop has joined
2762 2013-04-23 22:29:01 <sipa> "kiboize" ?
2763 2013-04-23 22:29:29 Azetab has quit (Quit: Azetab)
2764 2013-04-23 22:29:31 <gmaxwell> 14:52 < nsh> what's the total codebase size?
2765 2013-04-23 22:29:35 <gmaxwell> Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC)                = 61,190
2766 2013-04-23 22:29:46 <nsh> oh, that's really not bad
2767 2013-04-23 22:29:50 <gmaxwell> according to sloccount but about 12kloc of that is leveldb.
2768 2013-04-23 22:29:57 <nsh> new "lightweight" irc bot has 2.2k
2769 2013-04-23 22:30:02 <TD> hmm. he doesn't really go into the memory parameter other than giving some basic recommendations
2770 2013-04-23 22:30:05 <gmaxwell> sorry, 19164 is leveldb.
2771 2013-04-23 22:30:08 <TD> i can't see any reason why it shouldn't use megabytes of ram
2772 2013-04-23 22:30:14 <TD> or heck, 50mb
2773 2013-04-23 22:30:53 good has joined
2774 2013-04-23 22:30:55 ejones has joined
2775 2013-04-23 22:30:57 * TD -> sleep
2776 2013-04-23 22:31:27 <gmaxwell> nsh: bigger than it used to be, I think when I first read through the code it was 30kloc.
2777 2013-04-23 22:31:40 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
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2779 2013-04-23 22:33:01 * nsh smiles
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2799 2013-04-23 22:52:47 <gaantr2> top
2800 2013-04-23 22:52:52 <gaantr2> whoops
2801 2013-04-23 22:53:53 HM has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2802 2013-04-23 22:54:32 CaptainBlaze has quit (Quit: CaptainBlaze)
2803 2013-04-23 22:54:46 mollison has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2804 2013-04-23 22:57:05 csc` is now known as Shadowflank
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2806 2013-04-23 22:57:58 HM has joined
2807 2013-04-23 22:58:13 <weex> is there any way to cause bitcoind to rebroadcast a transaction it didn't send yet?
2808 2013-04-23 22:58:23 <weex> restart didn't work, sending another tx after syncing didn't work
2809 2013-04-23 22:58:32 <gmaxwell> weex: open the console, getrawtransaction / sendrawtransaction
2810 2013-04-23 22:58:43 <weex> yeah, guess i need to upgrade...
2811 2013-04-23 22:58:58 <gmaxwell> you're running something so old you gon't have sendrawtransaction?!
2812 2013-04-23 22:59:01 <gmaxwell> wtf.
2813 2013-04-23 22:59:08 * gmaxwell 0wned weex and takes all his bitcoins.
2814 2013-04-23 22:59:10 <gmaxwell> :P
2815 2013-04-23 22:59:19 <weex> yeah i'm nostaligic
2816 2013-04-23 22:59:47 <sipa> gmaxwell: won't work
2817 2013-04-23 22:59:50 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2818 2013-04-23 23:00:00 <gmaxwell> sipa: hm? pretty sure it works.
2819 2013-04-23 23:00:11 <sipa> see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2512
2820 2013-04-23 23:00:22 i2pRelay has joined
2821 2013-04-23 23:00:51 Shadowflank is now known as csc`
2822 2013-04-23 23:01:34 <weex> my other issue is i'm not going to be here long enough for 0.8 to finish it's thing
2823 2013-04-23 23:02:04 veox has left ()
2824 2013-04-23 23:02:08 <weex> on an ssd, how long does the conversion take?
2825 2013-04-23 23:02:24 Guest75765 has joined
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2827 2013-04-23 23:04:23 <gmaxwell> sipa: it should work for weex's case since he'll have a restart that clears the mempool.
2828 2013-04-23 23:05:12 <weex> guess i'll find out now
2829 2013-04-23 23:06:19 Guest75765 is now known as btcven
2830 2013-04-23 23:06:53 btcven is now known as rdymac
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2834 2013-04-23 23:08:23 i2pRelay has joined
2835 2013-04-23 23:08:50 Wrenuld has joined
2836 2013-04-23 23:09:03 <weex> you know bitcoind, i have 4 processors right here? :P
2837 2013-04-23 23:10:02 bung23 has joined
2838 2013-04-23 23:10:05 <Luke-Jr> weex: 0.8 will use them
2839 2013-04-23 23:10:19 systemParanoid has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2840 2013-04-23 23:11:04 <weex> if i only see two bitcoin-loadblk threads is it doing that?
2841 2013-04-23 23:11:13 <weex> i see msghand also
2842 2013-04-23 23:11:32 duckybsd has joined
2843 2013-04-23 23:13:12 <Luke-Jr> weex: sure you have two processors? O.o
2844 2013-04-23 23:13:52 <weex> Cpu0-Cpu3 representin'
2845 2013-04-23 23:14:07 <sipa> weex: it uses whatever it can get, but only the signature checking is really multi-threaded
2846 2013-04-23 23:14:19 <sipa> which is only enabled after the last checkpoint
2847 2013-04-23 23:14:22 <weex> i see some %wa though so maybe it's the ssd that's the bottleneck
2848 2013-04-23 23:15:01 <weex> sipa: Luke-Jr: thanks...getting there
2849 2013-04-23 23:15:38 <Luke-Jr> aha, forgot the sig checking wasn't enabled early XD
2850 2013-04-23 23:15:54 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2853 2013-04-23 23:16:04 <Luke-Jr> sipa: for a transaction with many inputs, is there a single thread handling it, or is it still spread out across threads?
2854 2013-04-23 23:16:26 i2pRelay has joined
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2859 2013-04-23 23:18:16 <sipa> Luke-Jr: it's spread across threads, but only when in a block
2860 2013-04-23 23:18:34 sl1982-Desktop has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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2866 2013-04-23 23:22:10 <HM> sipa you weren't wrong. memory usage on githead is a world-apart
2867 2013-04-23 23:22:51 Diapolis_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2868 2013-04-23 23:23:44 <csc`> it ok to ask a bitsafe question here or does bitsafe have a channel on freenode?
2869 2013-04-23 23:23:56 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2870 2013-04-23 23:24:21 twobitcoins has joined
2871 2013-04-23 23:24:22 <gmaxwell> sipa: uhhh. that assert issue appears to be in the retargeting code?
2872 2013-04-23 23:24:28 i2pRelay has joined
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2875 2013-04-23 23:33:07 <gmaxwell> I've seen (in user reports) some other odd asserts on pindex* stuff, but I'm not sure if any where that one.
2876 2013-04-23 23:33:07 duckybsd has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2877 2013-04-23 23:33:36 <gmaxwell> I wouldn't be surprised if there were some block handling data race or something causing it.
2878 2013-04-23 23:33:42 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2879 2013-04-23 23:34:07 <sipa> gmaxwell: #2405 is distinct
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2892 2013-04-23 23:44:09 <anarchy5> if I have a wallet with 10 btc in it, and someone sends me 1 btc - I have 11 btc in my wallet.  If I then send 3 btc to someone else, will the original 1 btc still be marked seperately in my wallet, or will it just be known to everyone that I had 11 btc, and that's it?
2893 2013-04-23 23:44:18 Graet has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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2895 2013-04-23 23:44:48 <anarchy5> I mean, can you trace the coin back to its source after that? or will it be mixed inside my wallet
2896 2013-04-23 23:45:29 <BlueMatt> depends on the priority of the two transactions iirc
2897 2013-04-23 23:45:39 <rdponticelli> anarchy5: The coins are always traceable to it's source by design
2898 2013-04-23 23:46:15 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2899 2013-04-23 23:46:31 <rdponticelli> But if you took care of not mixing your imputs, nobody should be able to relate that information to your particular wallet
2900 2013-04-23 23:47:57 <anarchy5> so, let's say I mined 10 coins, and I received 1 coin - so I have 11 coins in my wallet.  Afterwards I send the full 11 coins to someone else ; Can this person still distinguish which coin originally came from where?  Or does he just have 11 coins, which came from my wallet, but he can't identify each coin individually anymore.
2901 2013-04-23 23:48:04 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2903 2013-04-23 23:48:17 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
2904 2013-04-23 23:48:27 <anarchy5> Of course he can see that I mined 10 and received 1, but that's not the question
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2906 2013-04-23 23:49:03 <Diablo-D3> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=7849&to=7850
2907 2013-04-23 23:49:08 <weex> anarchy5: he'll see one transaction that took the two inputs
2908 2013-04-23 23:49:15 <weex> so they are now one output
2909 2013-04-23 23:49:32 <anarchy5> ok
2910 2013-04-23 23:49:59 <rdponticelli> anarchy5: He will receive an output of 11btc composed of two input of 10 and 1, and he knows you triggered the transaction
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2912 2013-04-23 23:50:43 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: is pulltester offline again?
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2914 2013-04-23 23:50:50 <BlueMatt> yes :(
2915 2013-04-23 23:50:58 <BlueMatt> it dies on the wine tests
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2917 2013-04-23 23:50:59 <wamatt> rdponticelli: mixing is not a panacea, not does it guarantee privacy. especially bad advice to new users. people should be treating bitcoin as *public* not private
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2920 2013-04-23 23:51:38 <gmaxwell> J-random-n00b is likely to get themselves robbed trying to engage in mixing.
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2923 2013-04-23 23:51:51 <anarchy5> but if he sends for example 2 btc to someone else, that person can no longer distinguish if 1 btc was mined, the coins aren't tagged individually?
2924 2013-04-23 23:51:57 <rdponticelli> wamatt: I didn't say anything about mixing
2925 2013-04-23 23:51:59 <gmaxwell> "Super secure dungeon mixer on tor! sounds like the place I should send all my coin!"
2926 2013-04-23 23:52:24 <purplebandana> ;;ident
2927 2013-04-23 23:52:25 <gribble> You are identified as user purplebandana, with GPG key id None, key fingerprint None, and bitcoin address 1LJzEedsbFqrMJW1xZnkpYdBVuExQFyeHR
2928 2013-04-23 23:52:25 <wamatt> [16:24:00] <rdponticelli>	 But if you took care of not mixing your imputs,
2929 2013-04-23 23:52:50 <sipa> anarchy5: coins always exist individually (there are _NO_ balances at the protocol level, just coins being consumed and produced, explicitly referring to eachother)
2930 2013-04-23 23:52:52 <rdponticelli> wamatt: Not mixing them in the transaction
2931 2013-04-23 23:53:11 <sipa> anarchy5: the question is rather whether people can link addresses to identities
2932 2013-04-23 23:53:13 <rdponticelli> Not a mixing service
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2935 2013-04-23 23:53:18 <sipa> coins can always be followed
2936 2013-04-23 23:53:21 <wamatt> rdponticelli: mixing them, not mixing them. either way. if you spend coins like you would normal fiat. it can potentially all be traced back
2937 2013-04-23 23:53:41 <nsh> this is probably a question that is best answered by reading the wiki, rather than trying to listen to 10 people at once talk obliquely at each other
2938 2013-04-23 23:53:44 PRab has joined
2939 2013-04-23 23:53:56 <wamatt> and there is no reason to think consumer intelligence both in business and gov won't exist to piece it together
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2943 2013-04-23 23:55:39 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
2944 2013-04-23 23:55:58 <wamatt> if you're an expert and know what you're doing and never spend your coins, then ok sure, its possible to be pseudoanonymous. but don't assume because it's technically difficult to do it today, it wont become a problem in the future. furthermore the blockchain history will always be there :)
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2947 2013-04-23 23:56:51 <gmaxwell> Analytical attacks only get better, and you can't hide information you've released.
2948 2013-04-23 23:57:27 <wamatt> meant to make it clearer: because it's technically difficult to <do sophisticated taint analysis linked back to real world identity> today, does not mean it wont be in the future
2949 2013-04-23 23:57:38 <wamatt> gmaxwell: yeah
2950 2013-04-23 23:57:44 <Belxjander> wamatt: the "anonyminity" of bitcoin is only in the blindspot of the lagtime... once its locked into the blockchain its pretty much fixed unless you can "go through" non-blockchain services which then lock exchanges into the blockchain for you
2951 2013-04-23 23:57:44 <rdponticelli> wamatt: I said the payee know was payed by him, but meh...
2952 2013-04-23 23:58:22 <wamatt> rdponticelli: ok. but one cannot trust payees either… what if they share that information with gov or tracking services?
2953 2013-04-23 23:58:32 <wamatt> either voluntarily or under regulation etc
2954 2013-04-23 23:58:49 <gmaxwell> wamatt: not to mention, things like "what if bitcoin services sell logs about who's been looking up what"
2955 2013-04-23 23:59:05 <wamatt> gmaxwell: :D
2956 2013-04-23 23:59:33 mE\Ta_ is now known as mE\Ta
2957 2013-04-23 23:59:48 <nsh> also sometimes sleepdial the FBI and admit to major crimes
2958 2013-04-23 23:59:56 <nsh> so you have to take that risk into consideration too