1 2013-04-24 00:00:01 <nsh> +I
2 2013-04-24 00:00:07 <gmaxwell> I hate it when that happens.
3 2013-04-24 00:00:13 <nsh> it's the worst
4 2013-04-24 00:00:15 <anarchy5> so you're saying that if I receive 5 'tainted' btc from person A (which were stolen), and 5 btc from person B, and then I send those 10 coins to person C (person C's wallet was originally 50 btc and now becomes 60 btc), and person C sends 9 coins to person D - would person D be able to distinguish if he got a 'tainted' coin within those 9 coins?
5 2013-04-24 00:00:55 <anarchy5> I know he can be linked to person A but thats not the question - can he individually identify coins to take the bad ones out
6 2013-04-24 00:00:55 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
7 2013-04-24 00:00:59 <wamatt> nsh: settle down :) no need to conflate real issues with fearmongering noobs
8 2013-04-24 00:01:15 <nsh> k, settling
9 2013-04-24 00:01:30 <nsh> you don't mind if i take the master bedroom? i have a back problem. left you guys a sleeping bag on the couch
10 2013-04-24 00:01:44 <wamatt> *hugs*
11 2013-04-24 00:01:52 <sipa> anarchy5: yes
12 2013-04-24 00:02:16 <sipa> anarchy5: but coins are not '1 BTC' units; they are individual transaction outputs that weren't consumed yet
13 2013-04-24 00:02:28 <anarchy5> sipa: thanks, and what would be the chance that actually got one of the tainted coins, is this just random?
14 2013-04-24 00:02:53 <anarchy5> that he*
15 2013-04-24 00:03:04 <sipa> anarchy5: not strictly related, but it may help you understand how things work under the hood: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Change
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35 2013-04-24 00:12:45 <saivann> Any comments on adding Joerg Platzer and Mike Caldwell to the press center? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/155
36 2013-04-24 00:13:12 <Luke-Jr> saivann: no comment
37 2013-04-24 00:13:32 m00p has joined
38 2013-04-24 00:13:47 <jgarzik> saivann: ACK Mike. Never heard of Joerg
39 2013-04-24 00:14:02 <saivann> jgarzik : He's the room77 owner
40 2013-04-24 00:14:03 <jgarzik> saivann: (so, no NAK, but no ACK either)
41 2013-04-24 00:14:12 <jgarzik> never heard of room77. guess I'm behind the times :)
42 2013-04-24 00:14:27 <saivann> (It's the bar that accepts Bitcoin)
43 2013-04-24 00:14:29 <saivann> :)
44 2013-04-24 00:14:35 <saivann> He's the owner
45 2013-04-24 00:14:36 <Luke-Jr> saivann: there are many bars that do AFAIK
46 2013-04-24 00:15:42 dparrish has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
47 2013-04-24 00:15:57 HM has joined
48 2013-04-24 00:16:27 <weex> i don't understand why a protocol needs press contacts
49 2013-04-24 00:17:15 <weex> guess there's a thread somewhere i should have read
50 2013-04-24 00:17:31 <Luke-Jr> weex: because otherwise you have idiots telling the media it's anonymous drug money that the government can't stop so nyah nyah
51 2013-04-24 00:17:32 <BlueMatt> sipa: re: LE arm: havent tested, do you want ssh into a server to debug it?
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54 2013-04-24 00:18:34 <saivann> Exactly, so that the press have access to good quality interviewees in order to have accurate stuff in the medias.
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59 2013-04-24 00:21:46 <HM> once businesses use it and trust it, they will become the voices
60 2013-04-24 00:22:09 <saivann> Indeed, they have to understand it before that.
61 2013-04-24 00:22:13 <HM> just like you don't hear VISA representatives in the media, it's always banks and businesses
62 2013-04-24 00:22:37 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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64 2013-04-24 00:23:07 <gmaxwell> HM: bitcoin is more than just the largest businesses that use it, however.
65 2013-04-24 00:23:24 <HM> is it?
66 2013-04-24 00:24:02 <gmaxwell> The root problem with conventional currency is all the trust that's required to make it work. The central bank must be trusted not to debase the currency, but the history of fiat currencies is full of breaches of that trust. Banks must be trusted to hold our money and transfer it electronically, but they lend it out in waves of credit bubbles with barely a fraction in reserve. We have to trust them with our privacy, trust them not to ...
67 2013-04-24 00:24:08 <gmaxwell> ... let identity thieves drain our accounts.
68 2013-04-24 00:24:11 <gmaxwell> ...
69 2013-04-24 00:24:21 <HM> I know all that
70 2013-04-24 00:24:28 <gmaxwell> and what I'm hearing about businesses in that statement isâ building things that don't depend on them unnecessarily.
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74 2013-04-24 00:24:54 <HM> But Bitcoin hasn't been challenged by the unwashed and the people who they cry to when shit hits the fan
75 2013-04-24 00:24:55 <HM> bigger technical achievements have been crushed under the weight of greed and politics
76 2013-04-24 00:26:15 <HM> Big business will betray things that were once in their interest once the get big and profitable
77 2013-04-24 00:27:01 Casimir1904 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
78 2013-04-24 00:27:04 <saivann> HM : Yeah but Bitcoin is not exclusive to businesses. Anyone can use it for a wide range of uses. It's really an innovation that is available to anyone. Just like the Internet.
79 2013-04-24 00:27:10 <gmaxwell> This is a reason to ... not depend on them unnecessarily. In any case, we've gone far afield of on-topic.. Also offtopic: anyone have anything hosted on OVH?
80 2013-04-24 00:27:23 <gmaxwell> Slush was hacked again and he thinks it was a inside job like the linnode hack.
81 2013-04-24 00:27:32 BurtyB has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
82 2013-04-24 00:27:35 <gmaxwell> (Interesting that ozcoin was recently hacked and robbed blind too)
83 2013-04-24 00:27:35 <weex> no ovh here. i would say bitcoin has such diverse interests driving it that no person could accurately represent them all, better to let each interest speak for themselves
84 2013-04-24 00:27:45 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: wtf, again?
85 2013-04-24 00:27:47 <nsh> linode was
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87 2013-04-24 00:27:54 <nsh> not an inside job
88 2013-04-24 00:27:55 <HM> the Internet is a perfect example of a stagnating and increasingly policed and politiced achievement
89 2013-04-24 00:27:56 <Diablo-D3> why the fuck are people keeping their cold storage wallets hot
90 2013-04-24 00:28:11 <HM> politicised*
91 2013-04-24 00:28:13 BurtyB2 has joined
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93 2013-04-24 00:28:21 <nsh> (don't trust anything to anyone who uses adobe products for security-critical sites)
94 2013-04-24 00:28:31 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1976.msg1925445#msg1925445
95 2013-04-24 00:28:45 <Scrat> nsh: hehe. coldfusion... seriously
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97 2013-04-24 00:28:46 <gmaxwell> nsh: I'm not talking about the recent linnode stuff.
98 2013-04-24 00:28:51 <nsh> oh ok
99 2013-04-24 00:28:54 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: oh, fucking OVH
100 2013-04-24 00:28:57 <nsh> still, don't let friends use coldfusion
101 2013-04-24 00:28:59 <gmaxwell> nsh: I'm talking about linnode's compromise a year prior.
102 2013-04-24 00:29:03 * nsh nods
103 2013-04-24 00:29:04 <sipa> BlueMatt: no :)
104 2013-04-24 00:29:05 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: they're just like linode and digital ocean
105 2013-04-24 00:29:09 <Diablo-D3> they dont care about security
106 2013-04-24 00:29:16 <sipa> BlueMatt: if you want to try, feel free, but i won't put time in that
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110 2013-04-24 00:30:11 <weex> ok, still get TX rejected after the upgrade from 0.6.3 to 0.8.1, conversion and restart...bbl
111 2013-04-24 00:30:36 <anarchy5> does anyone know who owns the 111,111 btc?
112 2013-04-24 00:30:44 <sipa> anarchy5: ?
113 2013-04-24 00:30:59 <anarchy5> https://blockchain.info/address/1933phfhK3ZgFQNLGSDXvqCn32k2buXY8a
114 2013-04-24 00:31:13 <BlueMatt> sipa: heh, ok...yea well just leave it open for now then.....
115 2013-04-24 00:31:20 <gmaxwell> Sounds like slush would have prevented the cointheft if he'd used gavin-style wallet encryption with an infinite unlock time.
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117 2013-04-24 00:31:40 <HM> anarchy5: Satoshi of course :P *ducks*
118 2013-04-24 00:31:56 <sipa> gmaxwell: what theft?
119 2013-04-24 00:32:02 <sipa> anarchy5: no clue
120 2013-04-24 00:32:16 <sipa> gmaxwell: did i miss some drama?
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122 2013-04-24 00:32:27 <gmaxwell> sipa: I dunno about drama, slush was hacked again.
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125 2013-04-24 00:32:56 <sipa> weex: debug.log may have a clue about why it's rejected
126 2013-04-24 00:33:00 <gmaxwell> sipa: similar to the linnode hack, the hackers reset access via a vps management panel. Managed to grab the wallet on one host.
127 2013-04-24 00:33:12 <sipa> owww
128 2013-04-24 00:33:25 <gmaxwell> " I lost some amount of bitcoins, but I'll be able to recover it from my pocket." "
129 2013-04-24 00:33:28 <gmaxwell> This time I realized that the attacker resetted the machine with the wallet to rescue mode, which means that I lost the control to this machine. I was still succesful by logging into the database and I took the snapshot of database and transferred it to safe location. Few seconds since the migration finished, attackers restarted all remaining machines to rescue mode."
130 2013-04-24 00:33:32 <HM> why does a mining pool need to keep their wallet live? or is that a dumb question?
131 2013-04-24 00:33:41 <HM> can't they put an offline wallet in the coinbase
132 2013-04-24 00:33:44 <saracen> For the website: "open source" or "open-source"? Both seem to be used as regular as each other. Anybody have any strong preferences?
133 2013-04-24 00:33:59 Tantadruj has joined
134 2013-04-24 00:34:06 <BlueMatt> what I've learned from bitcoin #42: most vps/hosting providers dont give 2 shits about security: dont trust them!
135 2013-04-24 00:34:21 <gmaxwell> HM: eligius doesn't. They mostly pay users directly in the coinbase, with excess amount diverted to an offline wallet.
136 2013-04-24 00:34:36 <gmaxwell> HM: but generally, pools want to provide payout-on-demand... and that implies live wallets.
137 2013-04-24 00:35:09 <gmaxwell> It's a competative advantage over coinbase payments (which take 120 blocks to mature) and offline payments (which come when the pool op schedules it)
138 2013-04-24 00:35:13 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
139 2013-04-24 00:35:22 <HM> silly
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141 2013-04-24 00:36:45 <HM> comforting at least one pool does something sensible, puts a slight dent in my cynicism
142 2013-04-24 00:36:47 * nsh probably knows who did this
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145 2013-04-24 00:38:20 <saivann> saracen : I should have used open source eveywhere, I will take a look where I missed some. That said, is it more common to say "open-source" and "peer-to-peer" in english?
146 2013-04-24 00:38:22 <gmaxwell> P2pool is of course sensible too.
147 2013-04-24 00:39:16 <Diablo-D3> 12 million devcoin auction: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=185897.0
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149 2013-04-24 00:39:33 <saracen> saivann: I'd say "peer-to-peer" is common. Wikipedia uses "open-source".
150 2013-04-24 00:39:38 <sipa> saivann, saracen: i'm not native english, but I think "open source" when referring to the principle itself, or "open-source" when used as an adjective
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156 2013-04-24 00:44:04 <saracen> It'll probably be easier in terms of consistency to just choose one version :). I'm just making changes in a local repo based upon changes my girlfriend has suggested (she's a proofreader, for those that didnt see me mention previously)
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159 2013-04-24 00:45:16 <saivann> saracen : I love pull requests, if you want to prepare one!
160 2013-04-24 00:45:31 <saracen> Will do as soon as I'm finished :)
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164 2013-04-24 00:48:45 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: the fact that slush is willing to refund everything out of pocket probably indicates he had some kind of cold wallet which stored most funds (ie was withdrawing from the hot-wallet as it becomes clear that those funds will never be needed to payout)
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169 2013-04-24 00:52:14 <gmaxwell> Sure, and IIRC this was also the case before. Doesn't change that encryption would have protected the hotwallet against an attacker that was forced to reboot the system.
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171 2013-04-24 00:52:24 <BlueMatt> true
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174 2013-04-24 00:52:54 <jchp> OVH has bizarre security practices. they pre-install a SSH key on all dedicated servers. that's a SINGLE key on ALL servers. i don't think they used that attack vector due to the password reset as described in the forum, but they don't seem to take security seriously
175 2013-04-24 00:53:21 <gmaxwell> jchp: as in .. the same private key???!?
176 2013-04-24 00:53:25 <jchp> yes.
177 2013-04-24 00:53:45 <jchp> if you do one of their images it will have it, i've installed debian 6 dedicated and it had the key preinstalled
178 2013-04-24 00:53:52 <jchp> http://help.ovh.com/InstallOvhKey
179 2013-04-24 00:54:09 osmosis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
180 2013-04-24 00:54:21 <sipa> This is obviously some strange usage of the word 'private' that I wasn't previously aware of.
181 2013-04-24 00:54:37 <Scrat> "It is not a gap in security, contrary, thanks to this OVH has root rights to your server and may identify the problems with your server."
182 2013-04-24 00:54:39 <Scrat> ahahah
183 2013-04-24 00:54:46 <jchp> no i mean they have the same key in authorized_keys on all their dedis
184 2013-04-24 00:54:51 <jchp> pubkey
185 2013-04-24 00:54:56 <sipa> oh, ok
186 2013-04-24 00:54:58 <gmaxwell> oh. well thats unsurprising.
187 2013-04-24 00:55:10 <sipa> well sure, that's not a problem, imho
188 2013-04-24 00:55:24 <sipa> as long as they tell you
189 2013-04-24 00:55:25 <gmaxwell> all these places will freely console root boxes on a whim in any case.
190 2013-04-24 00:55:27 <jchp> .. which is accessible from the internet
191 2013-04-24 00:55:53 <nsh> makes sense to have one key that rules them all
192 2013-04-24 00:56:03 <nsh> oh no wait, that went really badly in middle earth
193 2013-04-24 00:56:21 Casimir has joined
194 2013-04-24 00:57:18 <gmaxwell> it's not unusual for hosting places to go in and much around with your configurations. Somehow people are not too concerned about this.
195 2013-04-24 00:57:33 LorenzoMoney has left ("Ciao!")
196 2013-04-24 00:58:00 <saracen> saivann: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/156
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198 2013-04-24 00:58:37 <CrypticSquared> for people on a limited internet quota, is there anyway to see how much data the Bitcoin QT wallet for OS X is downloading?
199 2013-04-24 00:58:46 <CrypticSquared> (when it first syncs)
200 2013-04-24 00:59:24 * BlueMatt wonders which hosting providers /dont/ freely root your box whenever the fuck they want
201 2013-04-24 00:59:31 <jchp> btw, I noticed that the bitcoin foundation's media spokespeople aren't added on profnet
202 2013-04-24 00:59:47 <jchp> it's pretty much what mainstream journalists (especially TV) use to find sources quickly http://www.profnetconnect.com/
203 2013-04-24 00:59:49 <petertodd> BlueMatt: if any, I'll guess amazon
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206 2013-04-24 01:00:36 <jgarzik> saracen: /me kicks github. HTML changes are difficult to review, when the text line stretches to infinity. github should be smarter.
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211 2013-04-24 01:02:38 <jchp> locked rack in a datacenter is pretty safe :-P
212 2013-04-24 01:03:06 <BlueMatt> jchp: yes, but that gets pretty damn expensive
213 2013-04-24 01:03:13 <nsh> only if you pay
214 2013-04-24 01:03:16 <BlueMatt> (and time consuming to get your own hardware and put it there)
215 2013-04-24 01:03:31 <nsh> you can get raspberry pi colocated for free
216 2013-04-24 01:03:36 <nsh> in two different continents
217 2013-04-24 01:03:41 <nsh> so there's no excuse really nowadays
218 2013-04-24 01:03:56 <Scrat> BlueMatt: even if they don't, stuff like KVM scares me
219 2013-04-24 01:04:01 <petertodd> jchp: I saw an article on Akamai saying their SSL front-ends are all locked racks with tamper sensors and trusted computing gear, and the keys get loaded remotely after boot
220 2013-04-24 01:04:02 <Scrat> it's an additional attack vector
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222 2013-04-24 01:04:13 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: could just as well blame the editors âº
223 2013-04-24 01:04:23 benwoody has joined
224 2013-04-24 01:04:29 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: newlines every sentence are harmless in HTML, and make diffs nicer regardless
225 2013-04-24 01:04:34 <nsh> Akamai is definitely at least partially owned by alphabet agencies
226 2013-04-24 01:04:42 <nsh> (if that's relevant)
227 2013-04-24 01:04:58 <Scrat> petertodd: they better be. they are handling logins for many major companies
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229 2013-04-24 01:05:46 <petertodd> Scrat: yup, using a CDN with SSL support is placing a heck of a lot of trust in a third party
230 2013-04-24 01:06:04 Michail1_ is now known as Michail1
231 2013-04-24 01:06:35 <HM> petertodd: not if you have an intermediate certificate i guess, and can revoke it
232 2013-04-24 01:07:01 <HM> the CA industry is to blame
233 2013-04-24 01:07:03 <petertodd> HM: *after* the attack
234 2013-04-24 01:07:13 <HM> sure
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240 2013-04-24 01:10:02 <Scrat> petertodd: sometimes it's the only choice (DDoS). in that situtation you can't even expose your login server to the internet
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242 2013-04-24 01:10:28 <Scrat> otherwise you're just trusting them with session IDs. and it's a good idea if they get renewed on every page hit
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244 2013-04-24 01:12:17 <jgarzik> I need to start a bitcoin anycast service
245 2013-04-24 01:12:21 <petertodd> Scrat: yup, ugly situation to be in. It's interesting though how for Bitcoin you have blockchain.info and strongcoin with client-side java stuff - the only comparison security wise is megaupload
246 2013-04-24 01:12:36 <jgarzik> everybody chooses one of ~2 anti-DDoS companies, it seems
247 2013-04-24 01:13:01 <petertodd> jgarzik: yeah, with 140 character max messages
248 2013-04-24 01:13:29 <jgarzik> hah
249 2013-04-24 01:13:36 <petertodd> is there even a third anti-DDoS option?
250 2013-04-24 01:13:40 MaybeJustNothing has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
251 2013-04-24 01:13:44 <jgarzik> build anycast network yourself
252 2013-04-24 01:13:52 * BlueMatt still doesnt entirely understand why ssl fingerprints arent included in dnssec records (not that dns is secure, but it is a hell of a lot better than trusting the chinese post office with every site ever)
253 2013-04-24 01:13:52 * petertodd can't believe he has 16 follows
254 2013-04-24 01:14:07 <petertodd> BlueMatt: there's a standard for that actually
255 2013-04-24 01:14:14 <jchp> it kills their business model? heh
256 2013-04-24 01:14:19 MaybeJustNothing has joined
257 2013-04-24 01:14:22 <HM> because SSL was developed in a rush and is built on layers of hacks
258 2013-04-24 01:14:25 <HM> and DNSSEC is new
259 2013-04-24 01:14:35 <jgarzik> Time Warner customers go to your Time Warner server. Comcast customers go to your Comcast server. other US to US servers. All automatic via IP routing tables, i.e. one IP address connects to the closest server.
260 2013-04-24 01:14:41 <jgarzik> geolocated routing
261 2013-04-24 01:14:59 <jgarzik> similar to how Google's 8.8.8.8 DNS server could get routed to any one of many regions
262 2013-04-24 01:15:10 <petertodd> jgarzik: you can do that with amazon actually
263 2013-04-24 01:15:26 <jgarzik> petertodd: a bit. theirs is hacky and limited.
264 2013-04-24 01:15:39 <jgarzik> petertodd: took a look at some of the root DNS nodes, especially ISC's
265 2013-04-24 01:15:56 <petertodd> jgarzik: your thinking route 53 right?
266 2013-04-24 01:16:08 <jgarzik> yeah
267 2013-04-24 01:16:23 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
268 2013-04-24 01:16:26 <HM> BGP loadbalancing is possible that way
269 2013-04-24 01:16:26 <BlueMatt> petertodd: ok, well I dont understand why it isnt in use by people with a vested interest
270 2013-04-24 01:16:36 <HM> same IP, different destination
271 2013-04-24 01:16:45 <petertodd> jgarzik: the impression I got was it worked nearly as well as anycast, modulo the fact that amazon doesn't really have that many datacenters
272 2013-04-24 01:16:54 i2pRelay has joined
273 2013-04-24 01:17:09 <Scrat> anycast & TCP still takes some additional magic in order to work
274 2013-04-24 01:17:13 <Scrat> UDP doesn't
275 2013-04-24 01:17:29 <petertodd> Scrat
276 2013-04-24 01:17:35 roconnor has joined
277 2013-04-24 01:17:41 <petertodd> Scrat: anycast is a routing thing, it works fine with tcp
278 2013-04-24 01:17:48 clr_ has joined
279 2013-04-24 01:17:56 clr_ is now known as c00w
280 2013-04-24 01:18:04 <jchp> being able to spin up 100Gbit/s of DDoS tanking quickly is expensive
281 2013-04-24 01:18:07 <HM> oh Anycast is accomplished using BGP?
282 2013-04-24 01:18:12 <jchp> pretty much
283 2013-04-24 01:18:16 <gmaxwell> petertodd: lol. until you manage to get packets ECMPed to your anycast destinations.
284 2013-04-24 01:18:49 <petertodd> HM: yup, multicast like you are probably thinking of exists and is implemented, but charging for multicast traffic is tough so ISP's don't really support it (there are also issues with routing multicast traffic)
285 2013-04-24 01:19:07 GlitchNZ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
286 2013-04-24 01:19:10 <jgarzik> bbiab, baby bedtime
287 2013-04-24 01:19:10 <petertodd> gmaxwell: sure, but don't do that :P
288 2013-04-24 01:19:54 <HM> I've heard of geoloco balancing via BGP, I had assumed that's what Google DNS used
289 2013-04-24 01:19:55 franl has left ("O Elbereth! Gilthoniel! We still remember ...")
290 2013-04-24 01:19:57 dvide has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
291 2013-04-24 01:20:08 <gmaxwell> petertodd: not your call, any ISP an ECMP internally and then mult-exit and end up at different addresses of yours. This means that if you want to 'anycast' tcp you have to unscrew the resulting mess.
292 2013-04-24 01:20:09 <petertodd> HM: exactly
293 2013-04-24 01:20:19 <gmaxwell> What everyone does is anycast _dns_
294 2013-04-24 01:20:29 <gmaxwell> and the dns response send your to geo-relevant server farms.
295 2013-04-24 01:20:36 <HM> sure, geoloco aware dns caches
296 2013-04-24 01:20:52 <Scrat> petertodd: it has do with the state of the connection and a route having just been dropped
297 2013-04-24 01:21:01 <gmaxwell> There is a poormans way to do this without anycast IP block announcements.
298 2013-04-24 01:21:06 <petertodd> gmaxwell: anycast works best when you're within ISP's, like what CDN's do, even DNS can have problems with ECMP
299 2013-04-24 01:21:27 dvide has joined
300 2013-04-24 01:21:30 <Scrat> in any case, it is very expensive to maintain an anycast network with a decent amount of PoPs
301 2013-04-24 01:21:53 ColinT has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
302 2013-04-24 01:21:58 <gmaxwell> The poormans way is to have one DNS reciever, and N senders. And then you have the reciever forward on the requests and thenâ based on synced clocksâ they concurrently respond and the reciever takes the first response. :P
303 2013-04-24 01:22:01 <petertodd> Scrat: yup, there's your real issue
304 2013-04-24 01:22:37 colintulloch has joined
305 2013-04-24 01:22:56 <gmaxwell> which works pretty well for continent level... though you can also just use tables based on the requester's IP. (the latter is what wikimedia does)
306 2013-04-24 01:23:03 <nsh> PoP = point of presence?
307 2013-04-24 01:23:06 <saivann> saracen : I started reviewing but I will complete the review later tomorrow, thanks!
308 2013-04-24 01:23:09 <petertodd> nsh: yup
309 2013-04-24 01:23:12 <HM> i can't even trust my ISP to deliver 1 packet to 1 destination in a straight line, let alone anycast or anything remotely challenging
310 2013-04-24 01:23:16 <nsh> what's the expensive part of it?
311 2013-04-24 01:23:22 <nsh> owning the IPs?
312 2013-04-24 01:23:39 <petertodd> nsh: a PoP means you physically have a box somewhere remote, that costs a lot of money to maintain
313 2013-04-24 01:23:44 <gmaxwell> HM: anycasting is just a kinda broken form of 1 packet to 1 destination in a straight line. :)
314 2013-04-24 01:23:58 <jchp> the expensive part is the multiple 10Gbit commits needed for tanking serious DDoS attacks, and you need a rack full of servers to tank layer 7 attacks
315 2013-04-24 01:24:07 <gmaxwell> (it just means you announce the same prefix from many locations)
316 2013-04-24 01:24:24 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
317 2013-04-24 01:24:35 <HM> BGP is also vulnerable to DDoS
318 2013-04-24 01:24:46 <petertodd> jchp: yeah, but you see, as you scale up, it becomes less and less expensive to do that. For instance if you are Google, you have dedicated boxes internal to ISP's around the world - good luck DDoSing youtube.
319 2013-04-24 01:24:47 <HM> and other attacks
320 2013-04-24 01:24:50 <nsh> theoretically you can tank layer 7 attacks with a novel form of advanced software that isn't shit
321 2013-04-24 01:24:56 i2pRelay has joined
322 2013-04-24 01:25:00 <nsh> but this has yet to be invented
323 2013-04-24 01:25:33 <jchp> nowadays it's just nginx with testcookies
324 2013-04-24 01:26:12 marr has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
325 2013-04-24 01:26:21 <BlueMatt> anyone know a shitton about wine and want to tell me why the pull testing is broken?
326 2013-04-24 01:26:22 kadoban has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
327 2013-04-24 01:31:57 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: what did you change?
328 2013-04-24 01:32:05 <BlueMatt> the heavy-reorg test
329 2013-04-24 01:32:26 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
330 2013-04-24 01:32:55 robocoin has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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332 2013-04-24 01:35:06 Haifisch has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
333 2013-04-24 01:36:05 Graet has joined
334 2013-04-24 01:36:06 wallet42 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
335 2013-04-24 01:36:23 <gmaxwell> that doesn't bode well
336 2013-04-24 01:36:31 <gmaxwell> are you running windows out of stack?
337 2013-04-24 01:36:40 <gmaxwell> the default stack in windows is only 2mb. The default in linux is 8mb.
338 2013-04-24 01:36:41 <BlueMatt> (I did check, it does not reproduce on windows native)
339 2013-04-24 01:37:16 chorao has joined
340 2013-04-24 01:37:40 nova90 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
341 2013-04-24 01:37:53 wallet42 has joined
342 2013-04-24 01:37:55 halvors has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
343 2013-04-24 01:38:03 savantguy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
344 2013-04-24 01:38:22 savantguy has joined
345 2013-04-24 01:38:31 <gmaxwell> hm.
346 2013-04-24 01:38:59 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: what error does it give?
347 2013-04-24 01:39:35 johnsoft1 has joined
348 2013-04-24 01:39:43 c00w has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
349 2013-04-24 01:39:59 SomeoneWeird has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
350 2013-04-24 01:40:29 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
351 2013-04-24 01:40:49 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: it runs for a while, appears to be going fine and then "Error: System error: boost::filesystem::create_directories: Path not found: "Z:\home\ubuntu\.bitcoin""
352 2013-04-24 01:40:59 copumpkin is now known as Buffett
353 2013-04-24 01:41:00 i2pRelay has joined
354 2013-04-24 01:41:16 <BlueMatt> may have been something run-specific, but it clearly takes forever (long enough that its unreasonable to run)
355 2013-04-24 01:41:41 <BlueMatt> Im running it again a few times, but I dont see why it fails so miserably
356 2013-04-24 01:41:48 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
357 2013-04-24 01:42:02 <BlueMatt> (also, wine shouldnt be 100x slower than windows native, no?)
358 2013-04-24 01:42:40 SomeoneWeird has joined
359 2013-04-24 01:42:42 SomeoneWeird is now known as Guest63277
360 2013-04-24 01:42:51 <wallet42> using a change adress is also a security enhancement right? since the new adress hasent been used the pubkey isnt known (supposed there would be an effifient way to calculate (sig + pubkey + data => privkey))
361 2013-04-24 01:43:14 <gmaxwell> wallet42: sure, though not an important one as far as we currently know.
362 2013-04-24 01:43:38 Buffett is now known as copumpkin
363 2013-04-24 01:43:46 <wallet42> kk
364 2013-04-24 01:44:13 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
365 2013-04-24 01:45:08 kanyl has joined
366 2013-04-24 01:46:29 <kanyl> Can someone explain to me how pools protect themselves from people not reporting found blocks and just "stealing" them? Is there anything stopping people from reporting work to a pool while stealing any found blocks?
367 2013-04-24 01:47:57 knotwork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
368 2013-04-24 01:47:58 <BlueMatt> you cant mind both at once
369 2013-04-24 01:48:10 <kanyl> huh?
370 2013-04-24 01:48:26 <BlueMatt> in order for that to work you'd have to mine both at once, but the only attack you can do is just not report found blocks, there is no stealing, just nothing
371 2013-04-24 01:48:30 <saracen> kanyl: The block they're mining includes a transaction that goes to the pool, not them.
372 2013-04-24 01:48:31 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
373 2013-04-24 01:48:36 <BlueMatt> that just means that no one gets the coins, including you
374 2013-04-24 01:48:57 <kanyl> I see
375 2013-04-24 01:49:01 <nsh> hmmm
376 2013-04-24 01:49:02 i2pRelay has joined
377 2013-04-24 01:49:06 <nsh> you could probably "co-mine"
378 2013-04-24 01:49:11 <kanyl> Thanks for explaining :)
379 2013-04-24 01:49:17 <nsh> but that wouldn't really help you
380 2013-04-24 01:49:18 Casimir has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
381 2013-04-24 01:49:26 <nsh> above pool mining and solo mining at once
382 2013-04-24 01:49:56 RobbCann has joined
383 2013-04-24 01:49:56 <nsh> there may be weakness in mining pool implementations though
384 2013-04-24 01:51:08 <saracen> I do wonder how the mining pool reporting works, what do clients send back to prove to the pool that they even bothered hashing? My guess would be that the pool asks for the hashes back, and verifies a handful
385 2013-04-24 01:51:21 <saracen> Or, distributed that verification to other users
386 2013-04-24 01:51:28 <saracen> distributes*
387 2013-04-24 01:52:14 <kanyl> saracen: I *think* that miners report back any found hashes, they are mining at a lower difficulty than the actual difficulty
388 2013-04-24 01:53:23 <gmaxwell> saracen: A block solution requires that the hash be smaller than some target value. Pools ask miners to return solutions which mach some different higher target. Thats all.
389 2013-04-24 01:53:36 <gmaxwell> The same process that proves the work of mining to the network proves it to the pool.
390 2013-04-24 01:55:56 Vinnie_win has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
391 2013-04-24 01:55:58 <nsh> be
392 2013-04-24 01:56:23 * nsh muses on the fact that he has only seen two gmaxwell typos and both have matched the regex m.ch
393 2013-04-24 01:56:33 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
394 2013-04-24 01:56:34 purplebandana is now known as PurpLeBandaNa
395 2013-04-24 01:56:35 <RobbCann> Can anyone tell me how to rescan? I have 2 transactions that have all of a sudden lost confirmation and I was told I needed to rescan to fix it. However, when I try that in the console window of the bitcoin qt wallet, it tells me Method not found (code -32601)
396 2013-04-24 01:56:40 <nsh> (baader-meinhoff)
397 2013-04-24 01:56:44 agricocb has joined
398 2013-04-24 01:57:05 i2pRelay has joined
399 2013-04-24 01:57:06 <saracen> Ah, I see. I take it that pools detect the postings of solutions that are identical?
400 2013-04-24 01:57:14 rushed has joined
401 2013-04-24 01:57:40 <gmaxwell> saracen: yes.
402 2013-04-24 01:58:08 Vinnie_win has joined
403 2013-04-24 01:58:12 <gmaxwell> RobbCann: its a commandline parameter, although... who told you that would fix it?
404 2013-04-24 01:58:15 dexter__ has joined
405 2013-04-24 01:58:22 <gmaxwell> RobbCann: if you have txn that lost confirmation a rescan will not fix it.
406 2013-04-24 01:58:30 rushed has quit (Client Quit)
407 2013-04-24 01:58:39 <RobbCann> Ok, what fixes it, if anything?
408 2013-04-24 01:58:45 <gmaxwell> RobbCann: do the transactions show up on blockchain.info?
409 2013-04-24 01:59:06 <RobbCann> No idea.
410 2013-04-24 01:59:09 <gmaxwell> and is your client synced? (how many blocks does it show)
411 2013-04-24 01:59:20 rushed has joined
412 2013-04-24 01:59:22 <gmaxwell> RobbCann: right click on the transactions to get the transaction IDs and look them up
413 2013-04-24 01:59:24 <RobbCann> Yes it is.
414 2013-04-24 01:59:41 <RobbCann> Ok, hang on just a sec.
415 2013-04-24 01:59:43 Detritus has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
416 2013-04-24 01:59:44 <jgarzik> slush got hacked, it seems
417 2013-04-24 02:00:03 <denisx> jgarzik: link?
418 2013-04-24 02:00:12 <gmaxwell> denisx: scroll up.
419 2013-04-24 02:00:25 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: yes, already discussed :)
420 2013-04-24 02:00:42 <gmaxwell> 17:04 < gmaxwell> This is a reason to ... not depend on them unnecessarily. In any case, we've gone far afield of on-topic.. Also offtopic: anyone have anything hosted on OVH?
421 2013-04-24 02:00:46 <gmaxwell> 17:04 < gmaxwell> Slush was hacked again and he thinks it was a inside job like the linnode hack.
422 2013-04-24 02:00:49 <gmaxwell> 17:05 < gmaxwell> (Interesting that ozcoin was recently hacked and robbed blind too)
423 2013-04-24 02:00:53 <gmaxwell> 17:06 < gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1976.msg1925445#msg1925445
424 2013-04-24 02:01:02 <gmaxwell> 17:08 < gmaxwell> Sounds like slush would have prevented the cointheft if he'd used gavin-style wallet encryption with an infinite unlock time.
425 2013-04-24 02:01:06 Diablo-D3 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
426 2013-04-24 02:01:36 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
427 2013-04-24 02:02:49 <gmaxwell> I'm surprised bitcoin business aren't beating a path to bluematt's door for tressor based hotwallet solutions.
428 2013-04-24 02:02:56 PurpLeBandaNa has quit (Excess Flood)
429 2013-04-24 02:03:05 PurpLeBandaNa has joined
430 2013-04-24 02:03:07 <nsh> gmaxwell, for what it's worth, i am more inclined to believe someone has a zpanel (or whatever) vulnerability than an inside job at OVH
431 2013-04-24 02:03:21 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: heh, I wish, though you also have to be careful to disable hardware which has dma access at the bios-level
432 2013-04-24 02:03:24 <RobbCann> gmaxwell, can I PM you?
433 2013-04-24 02:03:31 <gmaxwell> RobbCann: You can try.
434 2013-04-24 02:03:51 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
435 2013-04-24 02:03:56 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: though we are hoping to do secret sharing at the kernel-level so that you need multiple drives to boot the system
436 2013-04-24 02:04:37 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
437 2013-04-24 02:04:46 Diablo-D3 has joined
438 2013-04-24 02:04:54 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: even if the attack was limited to physically present attacks it would be a big improvement: a rogue datacenter couldn't pretend to be a not-inside-job
439 2013-04-24 02:05:06 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
440 2013-04-24 02:05:08 i2pRelay has joined
441 2013-04-24 02:05:42 knotwork has joined
442 2013-04-24 02:05:42 <freewil> any kind of managed hosting for bitcoin service is a bad idea
443 2013-04-24 02:05:44 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: dont even close to need tresor for that, though
444 2013-04-24 02:06:08 <nsh> BlueMatt, where can i read about this tresor stuff?
445 2013-04-24 02:06:20 <BlueMatt> nsh: http://www1.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/tresor
446 2013-04-24 02:06:24 <nsh> ty
447 2013-04-24 02:06:38 <BlueMatt> see my branch linked there if you want part of the key on a drive
448 2013-04-24 02:06:41 <BlueMatt> (ie keyfile-style)
449 2013-04-24 02:07:03 <nsh> hmm
450 2013-04-24 02:07:05 <denisx> what is OVH?
451 2013-04-24 02:07:16 <nsh> denisx, a hosting provider
452 2013-04-24 02:08:41 <saracen> Hmm, I'm with OVH
453 2013-04-24 02:09:04 <saracen> I just wondered what they send out when you "forgot your password?"
454 2013-04-24 02:09:09 <BlueMatt> nsh: see-also: http://forums.hak5.org/index.php?/topic/28816-howto-anti-forensics-mass-storage-device-as-a-key-device-for-fde/ if you are crazy paranoid/want a fun read on how to be crazy, crazy paranoid
455 2013-04-24 02:09:31 <saracen> I did so twice. The email I received -- the token in the url was only different by 3 characters each time
456 2013-04-24 02:09:38 <nsh> BlueMatt, thanks!
457 2013-04-24 02:10:36 * nsh muses
458 2013-04-24 02:10:57 <nsh> cryptography seems at times to converging on properties of quantum information
459 2013-04-24 02:11:04 <nsh> which is philosophically interesting
460 2013-04-24 02:12:04 <nsh> oh, i get the idea here
461 2013-04-24 02:12:05 <nsh> nice
462 2013-04-24 02:12:39 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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464 2013-04-24 02:13:10 i2pRelay has joined
465 2013-04-24 02:13:26 impulse- has quit (Quit: leaving)
466 2013-04-24 02:13:30 * nsh considers submitting patch for RubberDucky to replace all data with rickrolls instead of deleting key
467 2013-04-24 02:13:38 Detritus has joined
468 2013-04-24 02:13:40 <nsh> , probably nontrivial, i'll just imagine it instead
469 2013-04-24 02:13:50 realazthat is now known as realazthat_
470 2013-04-24 02:14:12 realazthat_ is now known as realazthat
471 2013-04-24 02:14:22 <BlueMatt> (the rubber ducky's original firmware/idea is way different, but it happens to be a usb dev board with a flash-drive-looking key)
472 2013-04-24 02:14:39 PurpLeBandaNa is now known as purplebandana
473 2013-04-24 02:14:42 <BlueMatt> I originally wrote it to overwrite the sdcard, but it takes too long, so I just clear the key
474 2013-04-24 02:16:07 <nsh> a potential problem is people will be tempted to keep a backup of the key, which mitigates the legal immunity provided
475 2013-04-24 02:16:20 <nsh> also courts will probably just fail to understand and hold you in some kind of contempt anyway :/
476 2013-04-24 02:16:34 <gonffen> BlueMatt: who designed the RubberDucky?
477 2013-04-24 02:16:53 <jchp> are the delete instructions stored on the rubber ducky and retained after it's cleared?
478 2013-04-24 02:17:09 copumpkin is now known as Buffett
479 2013-04-24 02:17:56 Buffett is now known as copumpkin
480 2013-04-24 02:18:32 Gamebak_ has joined
481 2013-04-24 02:18:39 <BlueMatt> nsh: its unreaslistic that it would work against a court, look up "anticipatory obstruction of justice"
482 2013-04-24 02:18:45 Haifisch has joined
483 2013-04-24 02:18:55 <BlueMatt> nsh: its more of a fun project for me, if anyone wants to use it in practice they need some serious lawyer discussions
484 2013-04-24 02:19:00 * nsh nods
485 2013-04-24 02:19:06 vimanu has joined
486 2013-04-24 02:19:13 <BlueMatt> nsh: re: key backup: use secret sharing and split it among trusted parties in non-us jurisdictions
487 2013-04-24 02:19:17 <BlueMatt> gonffen: hak5
488 2013-04-24 02:19:33 <gonffen> right, but do you know who made it?
489 2013-04-24 02:19:39 chorao has quit ()
490 2013-04-24 02:19:44 <gonffen> like, it's rather unlikely Darren did
491 2013-04-24 02:19:47 <BlueMatt> jchp: the only part of the firmware cleared when a bad read is triggered is the aes keys
492 2013-04-24 02:20:02 <BlueMatt> gonffen: no, realistically I shouldnt actually trust the hardware itself.....
493 2013-04-24 02:20:04 sagax has joined
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495 2013-04-24 02:21:14 i2pRelay has joined
496 2013-04-24 02:21:53 <gonffen> BlueMatt: fair enough, thank you
497 2013-04-24 02:22:07 <Gamebak_> are there any discussions about the block chains concepts ?
498 2013-04-24 02:22:14 purplebandana is now known as PurpLeBandaNa
499 2013-04-24 02:22:21 PurpLeBandaNa is now known as purplebandana
500 2013-04-24 02:22:44 <Gamebak_> i'm currently thinking of working with big data over decentralized network and seems that bitcoins are the right way to do it
501 2013-04-24 02:22:58 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
502 2013-04-24 02:23:06 <BlueMatt> Gamebak_: as in?
503 2013-04-24 02:23:23 <Gamebak_> well as data transfer
504 2013-04-24 02:23:24 Steve132 has joined
505 2013-04-24 02:23:26 <Gamebak_> for webdata
506 2013-04-24 02:23:34 <Gamebak_> stored in decentralized network
507 2013-04-24 02:23:40 <BlueMatt> you mean storing data in the blockchain?
508 2013-04-24 02:23:42 <BlueMatt> yea....no
509 2013-04-24 02:23:45 <Gamebak_> yes
510 2013-04-24 02:23:47 <jchp> have you looked at bitmessage? the blockchain isn't a storage medium
511 2013-04-24 02:23:58 <BlueMatt> though its entirely possible (we've seen it plenty) its very expensive and there are better alternatives
512 2013-04-24 02:24:01 <BlueMatt> (like, way, way better)
513 2013-04-24 02:24:12 <BlueMatt> also, there is actually no guarantee of data retrieval
514 2013-04-24 02:24:13 <Gamebak_> i know it's not a storage medium, but just imagine if we could tweak it into something like that
515 2013-04-24 02:24:17 <Gamebak_> + computation power
516 2013-04-24 02:24:33 <jchp> try using bitmessage it sounds like what you want
517 2013-04-24 02:24:34 <nsh> Gamebak_, try freenet, it was very promising in 1995 and that was like 20 years ago
518 2013-04-24 02:24:35 <BlueMatt> as the chain continues to grow, transactions can be easily pruned (and will be, to save space) and your data could be lost
519 2013-04-24 02:24:40 <nsh> so it's probably perfect by now
520 2013-04-24 02:25:03 <Gamebak_> i know about freenet, but i like the bitcoin method
521 2013-04-24 02:25:14 <Gamebak_> having miners or available cpu power all the time
522 2013-04-24 02:25:19 <BlueMatt> so use bitmessage?
523 2013-04-24 02:25:22 treaki_ has joined
524 2013-04-24 02:25:24 <Gamebak_> yeah
525 2013-04-24 02:25:38 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
526 2013-04-24 02:25:45 <Gamebak_> i was also looking at the nmc implementation
527 2013-04-24 02:26:08 <nsh> nmc?
528 2013-04-24 02:26:09 treaki has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
529 2013-04-24 02:26:16 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, there really is no error, on large reorgs bitcoind under wine just...stops?
530 2013-04-24 02:26:32 Steve132_ has joined
531 2013-04-24 02:26:38 RobbCann has quit ()
532 2013-04-24 02:26:39 <BlueMatt> works fine under windows/native linux, but wine just kills it
533 2013-04-24 02:26:40 <jchp> just curious why are you testing bitcoin on wine?
534 2013-04-24 02:27:03 <BlueMatt> well its designed to test windows-only problems because, up till now, there have been no issues with bitcoin under wine
535 2013-04-24 02:27:28 <jchp> oh ok
536 2013-04-24 02:27:35 Steve132 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
537 2013-04-24 02:27:59 <Gamebak_> namecoin stores in their chain the domains
538 2013-04-24 02:28:24 <Gamebak_> i mean data about domains and where they point to
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563 2013-04-24 02:54:07 <saivann> gmaxwell, luke-jr, TD : In order to add consistancy and transparency to this selection process, do you agree with these rules : https://github.com/saivann/guidelines/blob/master/README.md
564 2013-04-24 02:54:27 <saivann> jgarzik also
565 2013-04-24 02:55:42 Transisto has quit ()
566 2013-04-24 02:56:00 <saivann> Luke-Jr*
567 2013-04-24 02:56:44 fiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
568 2013-04-24 02:57:20 <Luke-Jr> saivann: I disagree with "depends on the owners of bitcoin.org" - in practice it may work that way, but I think it's better left uncodified
569 2013-04-24 02:58:07 <saivann> Luke-Jr : So "The ultimate decision of including an interviewees depends on the above rules"?
570 2013-04-24 02:58:12 fiesh has joined
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572 2013-04-24 02:58:39 <nsh> {{instruction creep}}
573 2013-04-24 02:58:46 <Luke-Jr> "Interviewees are chosen based on the following rules:"
574 2013-04-24 02:58:58 <jgarzik> I dislike rules :)
575 2013-04-24 02:59:05 <jgarzik> Consensus seems to work for the rest of the system ;p
576 2013-04-24 03:00:50 Diapolis has joined
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578 2013-04-24 03:00:59 <saivann> jgarzik : I understand, I also thought everyone would work with this nicely. But I'm trying to work in steps in order to calm things
579 2013-04-24 03:01:07 <saracen> This whole problem is easily fixed. Just create an altcoin, votecoin. People can buy adspace on the interview pages with their coins.
580 2013-04-24 03:01:20 <saivann> Choosing people is controversial. So it seems that people need to know there are reasonable rules and what they are.
581 2013-04-24 03:01:26 i2pRelay has joined
582 2013-04-24 03:01:39 <saivann> :)
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584 2013-04-24 03:03:03 <Gamebak_> any solutions
585 2013-04-24 03:03:09 <Gamebak_> to remove things from the main chain ?
586 2013-04-24 03:03:28 <Gamebak_> i mean anyone proposed a concept like that ?
587 2013-04-24 03:03:58 <nsh> Gamebak_, your question seems a big vague
588 2013-04-24 03:04:13 <BlueMatt> OP_RETURN, but, seriously, why are you intent on using bitcoin, it isnt designed for it and really isnt as optimal as other systems which are
589 2013-04-24 03:04:19 <Gamebak_> like removing data from the blockchain
590 2013-04-24 03:04:45 <Gamebak_> i know it's not, but studying gets me somewhere
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592 2013-04-24 03:06:57 <saivann> jgarzik : So basically, you don't think it's a good idea from what I understand?
593 2013-04-24 03:07:25 DBordello has quit (Excess Flood)
594 2013-04-24 03:07:37 <Luke-Jr> "Interviewees are usually chosen based on the following factors:"
595 2013-04-24 03:07:40 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: ^ :p
596 2013-04-24 03:08:23 <saivann> usually chosen.. (headaches)
597 2013-04-24 03:08:42 <Luke-Jr> saivann: headaches either way
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602 2013-04-24 03:11:09 <saivann> jgarzik / Luke-Jr : So let's just drop the rules idea. But can you tell me if you agree with point #3 at least? We have said disparate claims everywhere and that's one of the reason why people were so mixed up
603 2013-04-24 03:12:02 <Luke-Jr> saivann: looks fine to me
604 2013-04-24 03:12:07 <nsh> saivann, i would totally support rules if the rules were: #1 Nothing is true -- everything is permitted. / #2 Bring extra sandwiches
605 2013-04-24 03:12:22 <saivann> nsh : ACK
606 2013-04-24 03:14:13 wallet42 has joined
607 2013-04-24 03:14:49 <saracen> I think the rules are fine, but they shouldn't be called rules. Why not simply: "If you want to appear here, have experience with interviews etc... email <here>"?
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612 2013-04-24 03:17:36 <nsh> saracen, a set of "things that would be useful experience for speaking with the press" would be much less contentious
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614 2013-04-24 03:18:05 <nsh> or yeah, as you say
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616 2013-04-24 03:18:25 * nsh is getting to stage of evening where responses depend vanishingly on inputs
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619 2013-04-24 03:18:34 <jgarzik> saivann: the rules seem good as guidelines, sure
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623 2013-04-24 03:22:21 <saivann> Alright, I won't publish the rules. But at least your answers allows me to have a bit more guidance and avoid problems.
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645 2013-04-24 03:41:06 <BlueMatt> hmm...it appears indeed the wine runs of bitcoind do work, but take a few hours to reorg back >90 blocks
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648 2013-04-24 03:41:30 <BlueMatt> so I suppose that test has to be skipped on wine tests :(
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652 2013-04-24 03:42:07 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: btw, ^
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667 2013-04-24 03:53:01 <nsh> BlueMatt, i wonder what makes it so slow
668 2013-04-24 03:54:35 <nsh> can you trace/time the wine api calls vs. native?
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670 2013-04-24 03:55:20 <nsh> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6541247/how-to-log-all-api-calls-in-windows-the-same-way-wine-does-in-linux
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673 2013-04-24 03:58:05 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: ever had autoconf fail because GCC optimizes away the test? >_<
674 2013-04-24 04:00:19 ColinT has joined
675 2013-04-24 04:01:11 <Arnavion> You can use procmon to do what that SO question wants
676 2013-04-24 04:01:15 ColinT has quit (Client Quit)
677 2013-04-24 04:01:33 <Arnavion> http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb896645.aspx
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680 2013-04-24 04:03:45 <nsh> "The solution we propose begins with a timestamp server. A timestamp server works by taking a hash of a block of items to be timestamped and widely publishing the hash, such as in a newspaper or Usenet post [2-5]." -- Oh, Satoshi, you so quaint...
681 2013-04-24 04:04:35 richcollins has joined
682 2013-04-24 04:05:03 <nsh> <Hero> the badguys are coming to stealbacks the deathstar plans, i need to syndicate them widefast. // <Sidekick> post to Usenet?! // <Hero> that should do it!
683 2013-04-24 04:05:12 <muhoo> satoshi was no college student then
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688 2013-04-24 04:05:21 <muhoo> he must have been an old dude
689 2013-04-24 04:05:45 i2pRelay has joined
690 2013-04-24 04:05:45 <nsh> or really into obscure porn
691 2013-04-24 04:06:05 <muhoo> or maybe he was a college student, brain addled from reading old-ass papers all night long
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694 2013-04-24 04:06:47 <nsh> Usenet might be suggested in one of the reference 2-5
695 2013-04-24 04:06:58 <nsh> in which case less (than the already nominally nothing) can be inferred
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698 2013-04-24 04:07:19 <muhoo> a speculation based on guesses based on hunches
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700 2013-04-24 04:08:38 <nsh> btw, has anyone mooted switching from incremental to randomly-sampled nonces?
701 2013-04-24 04:08:54 <nsh> would that be non-controversial in another implementation?
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779 2013-04-24 05:26:22 <gmaxwell> Interesting: Strongcoin (a JS webwallet where the user holds the private keys) successfully intercepted the stolen ozcoin funds: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=14085.msg1910151#msg1910151
780 2013-04-24 05:26:37 <gmaxwell> A number of people are pretty agressively hating on strongcoin: http://blog.turboroot.com/bitcoin-service-strongcoin-hacks-their-users-to-regain-stolen-funds
781 2013-04-24 05:26:53 <gmaxwell> I think this is unfair. The same weakness exists in all similar services.
782 2013-04-24 05:27:06 <gmaxwell> And the theft of ozcoin's funds was a _really_ good excuse.
783 2013-04-24 05:27:29 <gmaxwell> I think instead people should reflect on Satoshi's comments: "Then strong encryption became available to the masses, and trust was no longer required. Data could be secured in a way that was physically impossible for others to access, no matter for what reason, no matter how good the excuse, no matter what."
784 2013-04-24 05:28:14 <gmaxwell> The failure here is not strongcoin's, to the extent that there was a failure it was the user's and our community for creating a situation where someone had to be trusted to behave immorally.
785 2013-04-24 05:28:53 <Luke-Jr> "Everytime you make a payment from StrongCoin the fee goes to 1STRonGxnFTeJiA7pgyneKknR29AwBM77" <-- facepalm
786 2013-04-24 05:29:15 <Luke-Jr> "sold a car for BTC but can't reveal who to due to an NDA agreement" <-- lolwut
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788 2013-04-24 05:29:41 <gmaxwell> yea, caught the theif red handed. Hurray.
789 2013-04-24 05:30:10 <gmaxwell> Yea, all kinds of neat failings here. Its good to learn about system failures from scumbags getting what they deserve rathern than from honest folks getting screwed.
790 2013-04-24 05:30:32 <Luke-Jr> indeed
791 2013-04-24 05:30:54 <muhoo> this will happen more when people figure out btc is not anonymous
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793 2013-04-24 05:32:02 <gmaxwell> So the failings are: Really identifable transaction patterns due to address reuse... then JS webwallets that can have their code easily replaced... and trusting a service to protect a someone who no one would be caught dead protecting (a theif who ripped off a liked and respected member of the community).
794 2013-04-24 05:32:59 <Luke-Jr> I hope StrongCoin got a physical location
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797 2013-04-24 05:33:37 <gmaxwell> it would be really great to have a successful prosecution of a bitcoin theif.
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800 2013-04-24 05:34:53 <SomeoneWeird> it would
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803 2013-04-24 05:38:30 * muhoo savors the irony
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805 2013-04-24 05:39:36 <nsh> hrmmm
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809 2013-04-24 05:42:18 <nsh> gmaxwell, i may be reading this with precoffee eyes, but you seem to okay with strongcoin completely undermining their security model to "solve crimes"
810 2013-04-24 05:42:19 <nsh> ?
811 2013-04-24 05:42:26 <nsh> +verbs and grammar
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815 2013-04-24 05:43:14 <nsh> i mean, from a consequentialist point of view, things ended ok. but i'd be pretty wary of using strongcoin after they set a precedent for hacking their users with malicious code injection
816 2013-04-24 05:43:38 <nsh> (assuming the story is legit as presented in the forum)
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818 2013-04-24 05:44:46 <Luke-Jr> nsh: if there's going to be a risk, might as well use the risk for good
819 2013-04-24 05:44:54 <Luke-Jr> you can't eliminate the risk
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821 2013-04-24 05:45:24 <Luke-Jr> otoh, whether he had the legal right to do that is another matter
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823 2013-04-24 05:45:58 <nsh> i find the situation morally complex, to say the least
824 2013-04-24 05:46:26 <nsh> SWIM regularly does hacks, but on the other hand SWIM doesn't ask people to trust him, and avoids money
825 2013-04-24 05:47:17 <nsh> anyway, it'd be interesting to see (if some legal action did follow) a clarification of status of BTC as "stolen goods"
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828 2013-04-24 05:51:09 <gmaxwell> nsh: it has nothing to do with strong coin. You can expect any service to do the same thing. Maybe the goodness of the excuse has to be better or worse for some or another, or perhaps the request has to come with a court order or via knife weilding ninjas.
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831 2013-04-24 05:52:48 <nsh> gmaxwell, i think how the btc was intercepted does affect the fallout quite a bit. if strongcoin actually assumed possession of the good with reasonable knowledge of its being stolen
832 2013-04-24 05:52:58 <nsh> that is a different matter to _appropriating_ it
833 2013-04-24 05:53:08 <nsh> counter to the usual operation of the business
834 2013-04-24 05:53:17 GlitchNZ has joined
835 2013-04-24 05:53:46 <nsh> http://blog.turboroot.com/bitcoin-service-strongcoin-hacks-their-users-to-regain-stolen-funds <--- would probably not be written if this had happened at gox or some other service where ownership is placed in trust
836 2013-04-24 05:54:03 <nsh> but i'm speculating obviously
837 2013-04-24 05:55:27 <gmaxwell> nsh: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=186051.msg1927659#msg1927659
838 2013-04-24 05:55:43 <gmaxwell> nsh: gox will happily seize stolen funds with a police report.
839 2013-04-24 05:56:21 <gmaxwell> nsh: their policy, iirc, is after reciving a credible reportâ they'll hold all funds and request identifying information which they'll hand over to the relevant authorties.
840 2013-04-24 05:56:23 <nsh> right, but my point is that gox is in a better position, legally/morally/trustworthnessily to do that than strongcoin
841 2013-04-24 05:56:35 <nsh> on account of them having legitimate access to those funds
842 2013-04-24 05:56:37 morrowyn has joined
843 2013-04-24 05:56:51 Davincij15 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
844 2013-04-24 05:56:51 <nsh> which ostensibly a service that claims to not be able to spend your money does not
845 2013-04-24 05:56:58 <nsh> there's shades i guess
846 2013-04-24 05:57:32 morrowyn has quit (Client Quit)
847 2013-04-24 05:57:39 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
848 2013-04-24 05:57:40 <gmaxwell> nsh: well see my post.
849 2013-04-24 05:57:42 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
850 2013-04-24 05:57:45 <nsh> ok
851 2013-04-24 05:57:48 <nsh> (sorry)
852 2013-04-24 05:58:00 <gmaxwell> nsh: that these wallets can do this is not a surprise, I (And others) have been pointing this all along.
853 2013-04-24 05:58:14 i2pRelay has joined
854 2013-04-24 05:58:16 * nsh nods
855 2013-04-24 05:58:37 <gmaxwell> But people like to argue because there is just something so ... security-theater- about the whole JS thing. It resonates with people, even though the security it provides is really thin.
856 2013-04-24 05:58:53 <nsh> the same holds for things like zerobin, which i have personally used for sending messages whose compromise could have very serious effects
857 2013-04-24 05:59:00 <nsh> and not personally auditted the code
858 2013-04-24 05:59:14 * nsh nods
859 2013-04-24 05:59:39 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, lol
860 2013-04-24 06:00:11 <nsh> so yes, i agree that if you are willing to introduce trust into your btc dealings unnecessarily, you should probably accept in some part the concomitants of trust
861 2013-04-24 06:00:15 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i've always been tempted to setup a js wallet that randomly "steals" from people but really is just sending them for a loop to give people a heart attack
862 2013-04-24 06:00:15 <gmaxwell> nsh: I'd use services like that over something totally insecure.... but you should still regard them as totally insecure, because in the worst case thats what they are.
863 2013-04-24 06:00:26 <nsh> but everyone has their trust/utility compromise at a different point
864 2013-04-24 06:00:31 * nsh nods
865 2013-04-24 06:00:36 <gmaxwell> A browser is a fairly poor enviroment for this stuff in any case.
866 2013-04-24 06:00:50 <nsh> the second clause of that sentence is largely redundant :)
867 2013-04-24 06:01:03 <nsh> (despite the internet's growing disagreement)
868 2013-04-24 06:01:28 wrabbit has joined
869 2013-04-24 06:02:05 <phantomcircuit> lol
870 2013-04-24 06:02:12 <gmaxwell> meh. "worse is better"
871 2013-04-24 06:02:14 <phantomcircuit> tv show about backyard oil wells
872 2013-04-24 06:02:29 <phantomcircuit> rooster that can "find oil" auctioned for 5k usd
873 2013-04-24 06:02:31 <phantomcircuit> derp
874 2013-04-24 06:02:44 <nsh> SPV security?
875 2013-04-24 06:03:14 <nsh> lol
876 2013-04-24 06:03:35 <nsh> phantomcircuit, doesn't beat the guy who sold novelty golf ball finders as bomb detectors for thousands and thousands all over the world
877 2013-04-24 06:03:45 <nsh> i almost feel bad for him getting caught
878 2013-04-24 06:04:04 <asoltys> just had 160 btc stolen. don't know what to do. posted details here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1czrua/just_lost_160_btc_from_address_managed_with/
879 2013-04-24 06:04:39 dbe has joined
880 2013-04-24 06:04:43 <nsh> oh, SPV is a lightweight node
881 2013-04-24 06:04:59 <nsh> asoltys, :(
882 2013-04-24 06:05:03 dbe is now known as Guest29152
883 2013-04-24 06:05:15 <phantomcircuit> nsh, lol the worst part about that, he was exposed, named and shamed, and GOVERNMENTS WERE STILL BUYING THEM
884 2013-04-24 06:05:18 <phantomcircuit> for YEARS
885 2013-04-24 06:05:44 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
886 2013-04-24 06:06:15 i2pRelay has joined
887 2013-04-24 06:06:24 gagecolton2 has joined
888 2013-04-24 06:06:44 GlitchNZ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
889 2013-04-24 06:06:47 m00p has quit (Quit: Leaving)
890 2013-04-24 06:06:51 <nsh> phantomcircuit, yup
891 2013-04-24 06:07:11 <nsh> though to be fair, at least in iraq, they were having literally shipping containers full of cash dumped on them
892 2013-04-24 06:07:15 Diablo-D3 has joined
893 2013-04-24 06:07:19 <nsh> they probably didn't care what they bought as long as it was spent
894 2013-04-24 06:08:03 <nsh> asoltys, i assume you've contacted bc.i support?
895 2013-04-24 06:08:25 <asoltys> not yet i'll do that now
896 2013-04-24 06:08:28 gagecolton has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
897 2013-04-24 06:08:40 <nsh> i think that'd be wise
898 2013-04-24 06:08:41 da2ce787 has joined
899 2013-04-24 06:08:48 <nsh> also get write down accurate timings of events
900 2013-04-24 06:08:59 <nsh> and check any possible history of connection to the service from your PC or wallet
901 2013-04-24 06:09:58 <nsh> get as much info as possible in the first instance, because at the very least it's better than sitting tearing your hair out
902 2013-04-24 06:10:46 da2ce7-mobile has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
903 2013-04-24 06:11:27 <gmaxwell> asoltys: ugh. I'm sad to hear that. I hope you're able to recover it somehow.
904 2013-04-24 06:12:16 <asoltys> nsh: thanks i'll try to do all that
905 2013-04-24 06:12:33 <asoltys> gmaxwell: thanks. it's not my lifesavings but hurts a lot. not looking forward to telling my wife
906 2013-04-24 06:13:45 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
907 2013-04-24 06:14:17 i2pRelay has joined
908 2013-04-24 06:15:05 <Luke-Jr> my wife forgave me for losing 0.30 BTC
909 2013-04-24 06:15:06 <Luke-Jr> <.<
910 2013-04-24 06:15:23 mappum has joined
911 2013-04-24 06:15:30 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: cheap lesson
912 2013-04-24 06:15:53 <gmaxwell> My cheap lesson was losing around 800-900 NMC
913 2013-04-24 06:16:09 ikea_meatballs has joined
914 2013-04-24 06:18:32 <nsh> gmaxwell, what does losing a few hundred NMC translate to in real terms?
915 2013-04-24 06:18:40 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
916 2013-04-24 06:18:41 <nsh> i don't really understand namecoin yet
917 2013-04-24 06:19:55 Steve132 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
918 2013-04-24 06:20:46 <gmaxwell> hah, a couple BTC. (both then and now I thinkâ but a couple BTC is worth a lot more now)
919 2013-04-24 06:20:59 meefozio has quit ()
920 2013-04-24 06:21:16 <gmaxwell> in my case I had a psu die ... and totally fry a SSD... and no backups of the nmc wallet except on that drive.
921 2013-04-24 06:21:17 <nsh> ah, ok
922 2013-04-24 06:21:27 <nsh> oh, that sucks
923 2013-04-24 06:21:46 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
924 2013-04-24 06:21:54 <gmaxwell> I had better backup practices for my bitcoin wallet.. but they improved further after that event.
925 2013-04-24 06:22:17 i2pRelay has joined
926 2013-04-24 06:23:23 <gst> had backups of my nmc wallet but forgot to renew lots of 2 and 3 letter namecoin domains that i got right after it started :/
927 2013-04-24 06:25:19 <ProfMac> asoltys: I'm a little freaked by your report. I hope you keep us updated.
928 2013-04-24 06:27:13 <Luke-Jr> anyone know where you can buy a YeeLoong in the US? :/
929 2013-04-24 06:27:14 <nsh> how well annotated is the bitcoind/bitcoin-qt code?
930 2013-04-24 06:27:39 <nsh> i don't have c++ to any nonlaughable degree but i'd like to understand its operation in some detail
931 2013-04-24 06:28:10 <nsh> do you think i could lazyweb some effort to make it comprehensible in a non-language-dependent manner?
932 2013-04-24 06:29:18 <nsh> also, there's no mention in the original paper of bitcoin transaction scripting
933 2013-04-24 06:29:35 <nsh> is there some separate write-up of this?
934 2013-04-24 06:29:48 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
935 2013-04-24 06:29:59 wallet42 has joined
936 2013-04-24 06:29:59 [Elementum] has joined
937 2013-04-24 06:30:09 * nsh reads https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
938 2013-04-24 06:30:20 i2pRelay has joined
939 2013-04-24 06:30:52 <nsh> (the smart-property possibilities intrigue me very highly)
940 2013-04-24 06:31:15 chorao has quit ()
941 2013-04-24 06:37:25 saulimus has joined
942 2013-04-24 06:37:34 eoss has joined
943 2013-04-24 06:37:49 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
944 2013-04-24 06:37:54 wallet42 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
945 2013-04-24 06:38:22 i2pRelay has joined
946 2013-04-24 06:39:23 JDuke128 has joined
947 2013-04-24 06:40:04 systemParanoid has quit (Quit: Leaving)
948 2013-04-24 06:40:16 * nsh frowns at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script#Transaction_puzzle
949 2013-04-24 06:40:46 <nsh> how did satoshi manage to embed a hash quine into the genesis block?
950 2013-04-24 06:41:00 <jspilman> someone just posted re: blockchain.info's anddroid app 'The phone app stores your primary password in plain text, relying on the sandboxing mechanism of the phone OS. And it doesn't support 2-factor. Your secondary 8 character password would be easily cracked.'
951 2013-04-24 06:41:02 <nsh> isn't that computationally infeasible?
952 2013-04-24 06:41:38 <nsh> ugh
953 2013-04-24 06:41:43 <jspilman> in response to asoltys theft
954 2013-04-24 06:42:00 <nsh> mebbe if enough of a fuss is kicked up about this, they might consider at least a partial refund for asoltys
955 2013-04-24 06:42:07 <nsh> dunno, maybe android is more to blame than the app designers
956 2013-04-24 06:42:45 <kadoban> nsh: uhm, if true that sounds like horrible practices by the app maker, not sure how android is at fault for that
957 2013-04-24 06:43:26 <nsh> i dunno either, i was just hedging the fact that my brain has been awake for 20h and i might for be able to intuitively make statements about mobile app security practices with impunity :)
958 2013-04-24 06:43:33 <jspilman> assuming that's what the app does... s/'remember my password'/'save my password in cleartext' -- you think if the checkbox said that, asoltys would select it?
959 2013-04-24 06:43:44 <gmaxwell> nsh: there is no hash quine.
960 2013-04-24 06:43:56 viperhr has joined
961 2013-04-24 06:44:03 <nsh> gmaxwell, what does this mean then "To spend the transaction you need to come up with some data such that hashing the data twice results in the given hash." ?
962 2013-04-24 06:44:06 <nsh> oh
963 2013-04-24 06:44:09 <nsh> sorry, i just can't read
964 2013-04-24 06:44:26 <nsh> my brain just converted that to "results in the original data"
965 2013-04-24 06:44:34 <nsh> because sometimes my brain replaces reality with a more interesting variant at random
966 2013-04-24 06:44:41 <jspilman> nsh - somehow asking gmaxwell questions makes the answer come about 1.5 seconds after you press enter. happens to me all the time :-)
967 2013-04-24 06:44:52 <nsh> hehe
968 2013-04-24 06:45:52 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
969 2013-04-24 06:45:56 <nsh> fidelity bonds are an interesting idea too
970 2013-04-24 06:46:06 <gmaxwell> Someday I hope to evolve to the point where I only emit meaningly zenish quips and somehow everyone around me is enlightened.
971 2013-04-24 06:46:24 i2pRelay has joined
972 2013-04-24 06:46:35 <gmaxwell> er, s/meaningly/meaningless/ ... hopefully that state of being will require less precise spelling.
973 2013-04-24 06:46:43 [Elementum] has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
974 2013-04-24 06:47:15 <jspilman> works either way I think
975 2013-04-24 06:47:18 <weex> Errors are proportional to word count.
976 2013-04-24 06:47:19 * nsh chuckles
977 2013-04-24 06:47:36 Skav has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
978 2013-04-24 06:47:40 <nsh> Errors are proportional to caffeine metabolism
979 2013-04-24 06:48:02 <gmaxwell> I have the slow-type caffeine metabolism, according to genetic analysis.
980 2013-04-24 06:48:17 <nsh> seriously?
981 2013-04-24 06:48:24 * nsh investigates
982 2013-04-24 06:48:48 <gmaxwell> (which seems to not mean a whole lot other than moderate caffine consumption is postively instead of negatively correlated with adverse heart effects)
983 2013-04-24 06:48:48 <nsh> have you have a full genome?
984 2013-04-24 06:48:57 <gmaxwell> I should hope I do!
985 2013-04-24 06:49:00 <nsh> (seems like a pretty random thing to come up in a partial screen)
986 2013-04-24 06:49:15 <nsh> lol
987 2013-04-24 06:49:35 <nsh> s/have a/had a/
988 2013-04-24 06:49:57 * nsh is more worried about the correlation between heart and gum disease than coffee
989 2013-04-24 06:50:03 airo has joined
990 2013-04-24 06:50:06 <nsh> my mouth is a warzone :/
991 2013-04-24 06:50:25 <nsh> (and not just in the sense of constant atrocities emerging)
992 2013-04-24 06:50:52 <gmaxwell> nsh: 23andme ftw... they now hit something like 1 million SNPs.
993 2013-04-24 06:51:49 <jchp> i'm far too paranoid because they put that stuff online don't they?
994 2013-04-24 06:52:08 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
995 2013-04-24 06:52:16 <nsh> do you submit a sample once and they add SNPs, or does it depend on when you submit?
996 2013-04-24 06:52:54 <nsh> it would seem to me CYP1A2 (the caffeine metabolism genotype) is pretty low on the priority list
997 2013-04-24 06:53:06 <gmaxwell> nsh: they keep samples so they can update... though they don't update too often. They also can use the samples for full sequencing on intersting parties in order to enhance their snp targeting.
998 2013-04-24 06:53:08 bitit has joined
999 2013-04-24 06:53:14 michagogo has joined
1000 2013-04-24 06:53:25 <nsh> nice (modulo privacy concerns)
1001 2013-04-24 06:53:25 <gmaxwell> one of their motivators is mapping stuff that has solid research resultsâ
1002 2013-04-24 06:53:50 <gmaxwell> i mean, if you're going to map a million SNPs.. might as well get all the ones you can say something very concrete about even if its not very important.
1003 2013-04-24 06:53:54 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1004 2013-04-24 06:54:03 HM has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1005 2013-04-24 06:54:07 <nsh> mmm
1006 2013-04-24 06:54:26 i2pRelay has joined
1007 2013-04-24 06:54:34 <gmaxwell> jchp: they doâ though at least US law on genomic privacy is pretty good at least today. And its so easy to collect someones genetic material without their consent, if someone is out to get you genetically you're kinda screwed.
1008 2013-04-24 06:54:38 <nsh> there's a phrase in bioinformatics that springs to mind quite often: massive input, massive output, small throughput
1009 2013-04-24 06:54:52 <jchp> hrm that's true i never thought of it that way haha
1010 2013-04-24 06:55:14 <kadoban> the world of GATTACA, coming closer every day
1011 2013-04-24 06:55:33 <jchp> just squicked out about going through with it, seeing that laws can be rolled back w/r/t genetic privacy
1012 2013-04-24 06:55:47 HM has joined
1013 2013-04-24 06:55:49 <gmaxwell> well, fortunately we know from identical twins ... having an identical genome only says so much. Really behavioral analysis is more revealing of many private things then genetic analysis.
1014 2013-04-24 06:56:11 <gmaxwell> I'd rather someone have a copy of my genome than my search history.
1015 2013-04-24 06:56:17 <nsh> i'd be more concerned in the US where healthcare is so dependent on peopel who want to deny you healthcare
1016 2013-04-24 06:56:23 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: perhaps Receive should only list unused addresses? ;)
1017 2013-04-24 06:56:24 <nsh> not so much of a problem in european socialist utopias
1018 2013-04-24 06:56:38 <wumpus> receive shouldn't show any addresses imo
1019 2013-04-24 06:56:42 <jchp> yeah i could see europeans having a lot less problems with it
1020 2013-04-24 06:56:43 <gmaxwell> nsh: well, thats part of the law hereâ they can't do that. And I wouldn't expect that part to change.
1021 2013-04-24 06:57:01 <kadoban> nsh: that shouldn't be too much of a problem any more (once obamacare is fully operational)
1022 2013-04-24 06:57:05 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: so when I make an address for someone, go pay some other service, and then the first guy asks me for the address again�
1023 2013-04-24 06:57:07 <wumpus> it should simply be a form in which you can create a payment request
1024 2013-04-24 06:57:11 <nsh> mmm, ok
1025 2013-04-24 06:57:17 canooon has joined
1026 2013-04-24 06:57:28 <wumpus> ie, a bitcoin uri
1027 2013-04-24 06:57:30 <gmaxwell> (god knows, we'll likely give it to law enforcement eventuallyâ start denying employment based on itâ whatever, but we won't take away healthcare from grandma: she votes)
1028 2013-04-24 06:58:00 <wumpus> or the new fancy payment protocol... but I'm more and more against showing lists of addresses *anywhere* except in the debug window
1029 2013-04-24 06:58:06 <nsh> just revoke her voting rights on the basis of a rational disposition, problem solved
1030 2013-04-24 06:58:23 <asoltys> jspilman: nsh: yes it seems likely that the android app was the weak link. still not sure how someone would've accessed my phone. I had it on me but i guess it could have some malware. anyways i appreciate the support. i've emailed blockchain about it now
1031 2013-04-24 06:58:58 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: how about showing just the labels as "outstanding payments" and allowing the user to double-click to get the bitcoin URI or QR code again? :p
1032 2013-04-24 06:58:59 <wumpus> and warn that the payment request should only be used once, this solves the address re-use issue in one go
1033 2013-04-24 06:59:01 <nsh> asoltys, wish you the best of luck. i really does seem to me that the app security was substandard and i hope there's some sympathy for you expressed as a result of that
1034 2013-04-24 06:59:19 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: yeah that'd be possible too...
1035 2013-04-24 06:59:26 <gmaxwell> nsh: as the same time, it can turn up useful data which can measurably improve your survival odds. I have a ~25% increase risk of type-2 diabetes. I might have inferred some risk from family history, but actually knowing it caused me to make dietary and lifestyle changes which should reduce my risk. (e.g. I lost 40lbs). On the balance I think that can be worth the privacy risks.
1036 2013-04-24 06:59:35 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: it's alot better than how it is now already :)
1037 2013-04-24 06:59:56 <jchp> one major point of confusion with payments in the bitcoin-qt interface is the list of your own addresses are not sufficiently differentiated from the address book (in a UI sense)
1038 2013-04-24 07:00:17 <asoltys> thanks. going to bed now with a big lump in my throat. told my wife though and she still loves me so all's well
1039 2013-04-24 07:00:17 <nsh> gmaxwell, absolutely. though i'm the kind of guy who stops checking his bank balance for bliss of nescience so i'm not sure how much i'd want to know.
1040 2013-04-24 07:00:46 <nsh> asoltys, hope you sleep as well as can be expected
1041 2013-04-24 07:00:51 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: ooh, better yet - just get rid of the Receive tab, and show requests in Transactions as "requested" or something :P
1042 2013-04-24 07:00:52 HM has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1043 2013-04-24 07:01:07 chorao has joined
1044 2013-04-24 07:01:17 HM has joined
1045 2013-04-24 07:01:34 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: the old addresses should probably be called "Used addresses" or "Historical addresses"
1046 2013-04-24 07:01:37 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: probably should consider what kind of interface we'll want when we get HD addresses that can be used for recurring payments, though
1047 2013-04-24 07:01:39 vimanu has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1048 2013-04-24 07:01:41 <wumpus> there needs to be a receive tab, to be able to compose a payment request, but indeed the list of previous receiving addresses can go... if people want to manually manage the addresses in their wallet, that's fine, but normal users should not be expected to
1049 2013-04-24 07:01:56 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1050 2013-04-24 07:01:57 <gmaxwell> or that.
1051 2013-04-24 07:02:18 <wumpus> I've noticed that people do horrible things with importprivkey and exportprivkey :-/
1052 2013-04-24 07:02:28 i2pRelay has joined
1053 2013-04-24 07:02:35 <gmaxwell> wumpus: we knew that would happen, which was why we didn't give them a gui.
1054 2013-04-24 07:02:41 <wumpus> right
1055 2013-04-24 07:02:42 <nsh> wumpus, make the software play ominous music when those functions are called
1056 2013-04-24 07:02:48 <gmaxwell> except then we did via the console. oops.
1057 2013-04-24 07:02:48 tcatm has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1058 2013-04-24 07:03:04 tcatm has joined
1059 2013-04-24 07:03:04 tcatm has quit (Changing host)
1060 2013-04-24 07:03:04 tcatm has joined
1061 2013-04-24 07:03:31 <wumpus> nsh: yes, someone needs to make a "your warranty will be void" with ominous music when opening the debug console
1062 2013-04-24 07:03:32 <nsh> there was a great 8bit funeral march from some childhood BBC micro video game i no-longer-remember
1063 2013-04-24 07:03:37 <nsh> hehe
1064 2013-04-24 07:04:06 <cyphase> play a clip of bowser laughing
1065 2013-04-24 07:04:20 <Luke-Jr> disable *privkey options unless started with -insecure-key-management ;P
1066 2013-04-24 07:04:45 <michagogo> duh duh duh, duh duh duh, duh duh duhhhhh duhhhhh
1067 2013-04-24 07:04:47 <wumpus> but I really wonder how newbies get the idea to ask me wether exportprivkey should be used as a backup mechanism... I really wonder
1068 2013-04-24 07:05:02 <jchp> oh what does that actually happen
1069 2013-04-24 07:05:03 <wumpus> there's a nice menu option "Backup wallet..."
1070 2013-04-24 07:05:04 <gmaxwell> michagogo: bach?
1071 2013-04-24 07:05:15 <michagogo> gmaxwell: Imperial March
1072 2013-04-24 07:06:01 <gmaxwell> wumpus: well especially because we have no way to _open_ a backup easily people feel uncomfortable that the backup is any good.
1073 2013-04-24 07:06:04 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: maybe we should make it a tab
1074 2013-04-24 07:06:06 <gmaxwell> a privkey you can "see"
1075 2013-04-24 07:06:23 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: opening a backup is a scary thing for end users to be doing IMO
1076 2013-04-24 07:06:26 <jchp> the most unexpected behavior is average people have no idea when they've expired their keypool
1077 2013-04-24 07:06:30 <wumpus> gmaxwell: ok, that will at least be solved with multiple wallet support, though I'm afraid people are still going to do horrible things such as share privkeys between wallets
1078 2013-04-24 07:06:35 <jchp> or more importantly that one exists
1079 2013-04-24 07:06:48 <wumpus> jchp: agreed, I usually encourage backing up after every transaction just in case
1080 2013-04-24 07:06:49 <gmaxwell> (I know that personally I feel a bit uneasy with my backups and periodically go through the effort of testing them out)
1081 2013-04-24 07:06:59 <michagogo> Share privkeys between wallets? o_O
1082 2013-04-24 07:07:02 * Luke-Jr has never tested his backups <.<
1083 2013-04-24 07:07:04 <gmaxwell> wumpus: more solved with determinstic wallets that only really need to be backed up once.
1084 2013-04-24 07:07:05 <michagogo> What would the effect of that be?
1085 2013-04-24 07:07:10 <gmaxwell> michagogo: doom
1086 2013-04-24 07:07:14 <gmaxwell> mostly
1087 2013-04-24 07:07:20 <jchp> like what's the solution to that, some kind of keypool counter since last backup? (i guess that requires tracking it bleh)
1088 2013-04-24 07:07:49 johnsoft has joined
1089 2013-04-24 07:07:54 <wumpus> michagogo: well onew allet can spend the coins on them, or send change to it, the balance will no longer be correct, double spends could happen, etc
1090 2013-04-24 07:08:02 <gmaxwell> michagogo: not really anything actually that bad except for really confused users. .. and perhaps some wallets with stuck transactions if they toggle fast.
1091 2013-04-24 07:08:10 <wumpus> but yes deterministic wallets should likely be the default
1092 2013-04-24 07:08:38 <gmaxwell> we should make sure the multiwallet code notifies all the wallets of any spends in them so if there are any shared keys they most likely stay in sync.
1093 2013-04-24 07:08:41 <wumpus> you can back it up once, store it some place really safe, and you dn't need to get it out every time
1094 2013-04-24 07:08:42 <nsh> oh, hierarchical deterministic wallet: doubleplusgood
1095 2013-04-24 07:09:03 <nsh> throw in some secret sharing and CSS rounded corners and we've got a business plan
1096 2013-04-24 07:09:08 <gmaxwell> nsh: it's not a cure all.. e.g. importprivkey is incompatible with one time backup.
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1098 2013-04-24 07:09:29 <jchp> is there a timeline for when bitcoin-qt will get deterministic keys/wallets? i haven't been paying attention
1099 2013-04-24 07:09:30 * nsh nods
1100 2013-04-24 07:09:44 <gmaxwell> so users will make a determinstic wallet, import some privkeys in it... then wonder where the @#$@# all their funds have gone when they restore their year old backup.
1101 2013-04-24 07:09:47 <wumpus> gmaxwell: yeah... and getting rid of importprivkey completely is throwing away the baby with the bath water
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1104 2013-04-24 07:10:04 <michagogo> Well, you could have importprivkey do what mtgox does
1105 2013-04-24 07:10:07 <gmaxwell> wumpus: we should probably add a sweep function and encourage that instead.
1106 2013-04-24 07:10:19 <michagogo> And transfer the funds to a deterministic address
1107 2013-04-24 07:10:22 <gmaxwell> We talked about that before... and I think it was what we wanted for the gui.
1108 2013-04-24 07:10:24 <wumpus> yes, sweep would be better any way, much less potential for havoc
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1110 2013-04-24 07:10:39 <gmaxwell> well, different havoc at leastâ what happens when you sweep load in three places at once?
1111 2013-04-24 07:10:41 * nsh doesn' understand sweep functions, bings furiously
1112 2013-04-24 07:10:45 <nsh> (haha, bing...)
1113 2013-04-24 07:10:59 <gmaxwell> nsh: an import that automatically moves any coins that show up into another address.
1114 2013-04-24 07:11:06 <nsh> ah
1115 2013-04-24 07:11:07 <wumpus> gmaxwell: eh, yeah, but at least after the sweep only one will have the coins, there will be no shared privkeys
1116 2013-04-24 07:11:24 <michagogo> What does bitcoin-qt do if it sees a transaction come in "from"[yes, I know] an address that's in its wallet?
1117 2013-04-24 07:11:38 <gmaxwell> michagogo: adds it to the txn list
1118 2013-04-24 07:11:48 <nsh> that's a feature
1119 2013-04-24 07:11:54 <nsh> (sending yourself coins)
1120 2013-04-24 07:11:58 <wumpus> how much work would sweep be to implement? can the current bitcoind spend from privkeys that are not in the wallet? I think the difficult part is finding out the balance (ie, how much to sweep to get all the coins out)
1121 2013-04-24 07:12:17 <gmaxwell> yes, signrawtransaction signs with keys not in the wallet too.
1122 2013-04-24 07:12:22 <jchp> michagogo: people do that all the time erreneously thinking it improves their privacy or whatever
1123 2013-04-24 07:12:39 <wumpus> sure, but how does it know how much to sweep? it has to scan the whole block chain?
1124 2013-04-24 07:12:39 <gmaxwell> getting the transactions to spend is the hardpart and requires a rescan or an index by txout.
1125 2013-04-24 07:12:47 <wumpus> right
1126 2013-04-24 07:12:52 <gmaxwell> forget how much, it needs to know the actual transactions.
1127 2013-04-24 07:13:26 <gmaxwell> but we rescan on import too.. so I don't see it as fundimentally hard.. a bigger issue is that active sweep isn't super compatible with encryption
1128 2013-04-24 07:13:27 <wumpus> and then there's the fee issue... currently it's already hard to spend all coins in a wallet and make sure the end result is 0 :p
1129 2013-04-24 07:13:32 <gmaxwell> I wonder how etotheipi handles that.
1130 2013-04-24 07:14:21 <gmaxwell> wumpus: thats mostly a UI issue, in that we don't have any way to express "everything minus whatever fees this needs" but the coinselector could do that easily with ~ 1 line of code.
1131 2013-04-24 07:14:24 <nsh> oh good, python bitcoin code
1132 2013-04-24 07:14:29 <nsh> that will help braingroks no end
1133 2013-04-24 07:14:39 <wumpus> how is it not compatible with encryption?
1134 2013-04-24 07:15:06 <wumpus> you send from the privided privkey to one of your own public addresses
1135 2013-04-24 07:15:13 <gmaxwell> wumpus: normally the wallet stays encrypted at all time except when you spend, right? ... so okay, on import you can sweepâ but if you want it to keep sweeping anything that shows up where do you put the private key?
1136 2013-04-24 07:15:37 <wumpus> oh yeah I was thinking 'one time sweep'... if you want to sweep again, just trigger it again
1137 2013-04-24 07:15:41 <gmaxwell> arguably that private key shouldn't be encrypted, but ... I can see users not understanding that.
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1139 2013-04-24 07:16:32 <gmaxwell> ah. well continuious sweep has the property that it saves you the rescan after the first time, but thats a point.. We could also have memoized sweep addresses: you trigger and provide your encryption key to resweep...
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1141 2013-04-24 07:16:52 <wumpus> yes
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1148 2013-04-24 07:18:17 <kadoban> isn't there multi-wallet support coming eventually? sounds a lot like what you'd want is sweep keys to go into a special wallet that's just flagged to sweep up
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1151 2013-04-24 07:18:39 <wumpus> good point kadoban
1152 2013-04-24 07:19:19 <gmaxwell> hm, well if its forced to be that different that might drive people back to import.
1153 2013-04-24 07:19:31 <jchp> if there's multiwallet, it'd be easier to just be a nazi about it and only allow coins to sweep in before use
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1155 2013-04-24 07:20:42 <jchp> and only allow deterministic addresses to send coins to others (for deterministic wallets)
1156 2013-04-24 07:21:02 <gmaxwell> uhg. I really want to reserve the naziing for things where I feel its important for everyone, not just footguns.
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1160 2013-04-24 07:22:58 <nsh> with a large enough footgun you can shoot everyone's metatarsals
1161 2013-04-24 07:23:22 <gmaxwell> import seems to be a mostly personal footgun.
1162 2013-04-24 07:23:39 <gmaxwell> vs, say, address reuse which craps up privacy for everyone you trade with too.
1163 2013-04-24 07:23:46 * nsh nods
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1165 2013-04-24 07:24:28 <nsh> (that was one of those occasions where i said something just because my fingers started moving and it seemed easier to go with it than wait until i had an actually relevant/useful comment to contribute)
1166 2013-04-24 07:24:29 <jchp> yeah. it annoys me that electrum reuses change addresses
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1168 2013-04-24 07:24:38 <gmaxwell> It's also easier when you're talking about not providing a feature in the first place vs removing it.
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1171 2013-04-24 07:25:32 <gmaxwell> I think if we had the gui-console back when we added importkey we probably wouldn't have done it that way. But at the time it was burried in the RPC and thus sufficiently hidden from the unwary.
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1179 2013-04-24 07:26:23 <jchp> wait i'm not up to speed, what's the problem with importprivkey currently? i can see how exportprivkey can be bad juu-juu for people that don't realize that all their coins are in their change address
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1182 2013-04-24 07:26:40 <gmaxwell> jchp: it's really unfortuante that it does that esp since it has determinstic addresses.. there is no harm in using a fresh one every time. :(
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1192 2013-04-24 07:27:39 <gmaxwell> jchp: import is the other half of that bad juu-juu... they do things like import a key.. spend (some to change) then delete the wallet. Or they import the same key in multiple wallets and then create double spends which freeze up some of their other funds.
1193 2013-04-24 07:27:50 upb has joined
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1195 2013-04-24 07:27:51 <nsh> can address reuse be sunsetted with some secondary mechanism for e.g. donation addresses?
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1197 2013-04-24 07:27:59 <nsh> that's probably too radical
1198 2013-04-24 07:28:03 <jchp> oh i see, yeah they are a set (duh why did i even ask)
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1202 2013-04-24 07:28:41 <gmaxwell> e.g. they have wallets with keys C and D and then load A into each of them. Then they spend AC from one and AD from the other. AC makes it into the chain, and now they can't spend D anymore in that other wallet. Ever.. at least until they salvagewallet to strip the txn.
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1204 2013-04-24 07:29:00 <jchp> oh i didn't think of that situation, interesting
1205 2013-04-24 07:29:15 <gmaxwell> nsh: preventing reuse requires an expensive and forever growing "used before" query... not a good idea.
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1207 2013-04-24 07:29:52 <gmaxwell> though certantly the wallet could get more helpful about it.. it could display a little alert icon when it detects reuse.. with a message that encourages you not to reuse.
1208 2013-04-24 07:29:57 <jchp> that'll crop up with deterministic wallets though too
1209 2013-04-24 07:30:02 * nsh nods
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1212 2013-04-24 07:31:08 <gmaxwell> jchp: yes, it's just even easier to trigger when you have partially overlapping wallets because you may not realize that you're spending from the same wallet in that case.
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1215 2013-04-24 07:32:02 <gmaxwell> nsh: once we have type-2 chained keys we'll be able to make many of the donation uses use random addresses.
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1217 2013-04-24 07:32:12 <nsh> hmm
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1219 2013-04-24 07:32:22 <gmaxwell> E.g. you'll be able to give the forum an extended key for a donation chain.. and it can generate infinite donation addresses for you.
1220 2013-04-24 07:32:36 <nsh> right
1221 2013-04-24 07:32:54 <nsh> i think a lot of the utility is in only having to publish one (though?)
1222 2013-04-24 07:32:57 BlackPrapor has joined
1223 2013-04-24 07:33:13 <nsh> you don't want to keep retweeting your donation address each day
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1225 2013-04-24 07:33:41 <gmaxwell> I think thats actually not the biggest usecases... most of the time people are putting these things on webpages, with reasonable cgi support they could be dynamic. But sure, some things like twitter, not so much.
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1231 2013-04-24 07:35:00 <jchp> seems like you could do something deterministic using a pubkey + a deterministic privkey, something similar to what vanitygen does right?
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1233 2013-04-24 07:35:12 <jchp> summing the pubkeys
1234 2013-04-24 07:35:16 <gmaxwell> ...
1235 2013-04-24 07:35:21 <gmaxwell> Where do you think it got the idea?
1236 2013-04-24 07:35:25 <nsh> lol
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1238 2013-04-24 07:35:47 <jchp> haha
1239 2013-04-24 07:35:48 <nsh> i thought you just beat satoshi with the monkey wrench until he coughed up insight, as usual
1240 2013-04-24 07:36:00 <nsh> how long has he been in that basement anyway
1241 2013-04-24 07:36:07 <gmaxwell> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=19137.0
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1243 2013-04-24 07:36:41 <jchp> sorry not as familiar with what's already been discussed/resolved
1244 2013-04-24 07:36:52 <nsh> how many BIPs are there at current? and is there a prioritisation of them?
1245 2013-04-24 07:37:03 <gmaxwell> And the ideas ended up in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0032
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1247 2013-04-24 07:37:11 <gmaxwell> which is what we'll implement.
1248 2013-04-24 07:37:16 <jchp> oh neat!
1249 2013-04-24 07:37:27 <nsh> oh, maybe 50 per https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin_Improvement_Proposals
1250 2013-04-24 07:37:43 <gmaxwell> nsh: it's not quite like that. ... often BIPs document whats already done or at least already in progress.
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1252 2013-04-24 07:37:53 * nsh nods
1253 2013-04-24 07:38:13 <nsh> none are listed as "implemented" though
1254 2013-04-24 07:38:21 <nsh> is that "Active"?
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1258 2013-04-24 07:38:32 <gmaxwell> e.g. they aren't waterfally design all up front and make a suicide pact of it.
1259 2013-04-24 07:38:42 <gmaxwell> nsh: yes, thats what active means pretty much.
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1261 2013-04-24 07:38:48 <nsh> we can still make optional suicide pacts though, right?
1262 2013-04-24 07:38:53 <gmaxwell> "document is relevant to the universe we live in"
1263 2013-04-24 07:39:05 <nsh> i'm outties if there's no harikiri orgy to look forward to
1264 2013-04-24 07:39:18 <gmaxwell> hah
1265 2013-04-24 07:39:24 <nsh> *harakiri
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1267 2013-04-24 07:41:41 <nsh> gmaxwell, "The system would generate some (maybe 1000 of each type) addresses ahead of the furthest it has observed on the network but only bother to store the addresses. The keys can be regenerated as needed." what does "ahead" mean in this context?
1268 2013-04-24 07:41:52 <nsh> ahead/furthest that is
1269 2013-04-24 07:41:55 <gmaxwell> nsh: prior to evidence of use.
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1272 2013-04-24 07:42:18 <gmaxwell> e.g. if I load some old backup it doesn't know how many addresses I've used...
1273 2013-04-24 07:42:29 <gmaxwell> perhaps I have payments on address 12 and 28 and 31.
1274 2013-04-24 07:42:39 <nsh> and furthest? seems to imply some ordering.
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1276 2013-04-24 07:42:44 <nsh> but you just mean total number of addresses?
1277 2013-04-24 07:42:59 <gmaxwell> They're ordered. There is an infinite number.
1278 2013-04-24 07:43:08 <nsh> oh ok
1279 2013-04-24 07:43:14 <gmaxwell> (well, eventually they repeat :) but its effectively infinite)
1280 2013-04-24 07:43:29 <nsh> i seems it should be obvious to me why they're ordered, but it isn't :/
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1282 2013-04-24 07:43:42 <nsh> (obviously they're ordered if they've been used)
1283 2013-04-24 07:44:13 <gmaxwell> Because of how you generate them. E.g. H(secret||counter) each counter value gives you a new key. So they are ordered by virtue of the counter.
1284 2013-04-24 07:44:23 <nsh> ah ok
1285 2013-04-24 07:44:26 <jchp> nsh: from the way i understand it, conceptually it shouldn't display more addresses than what it will seek when you load up the deterministic wallet on another computer based on previous use
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1287 2013-04-24 07:44:42 * nsh nods
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1289 2013-04-24 07:45:27 <gmaxwell> but sometimes you might generate a bunch of addresses but not send anything to them.. and then send some to the later ones, so it has to go far enough ahead to find those.
1290 2013-04-24 07:45:41 <gmaxwell> presumably there would be some setting that you could crank up if the defaults were failing you.
1291 2013-04-24 07:45:55 <nsh> would it be featuresome to have a way to revoking the address chain by some special transaction?
1292 2013-04-24 07:46:07 <nsh> so that any later addresses would be invalid
1293 2013-04-24 07:46:21 <gmaxwell> the public can't tell if two addresses belong to the same chain.
1294 2013-04-24 07:46:33 <nsh> mmm, right
1295 2013-04-24 07:46:40 <gmaxwell> (which is part of the point!)
1296 2013-04-24 07:46:49 <nsh> indeed
1297 2013-04-24 07:47:06 * nsh makes less stupid, more coffee
1298 2013-04-24 07:47:15 <gmaxwell> bedtime here!
1299 2013-04-24 07:47:18 <gmaxwell> goodnight
1300 2013-04-24 07:47:23 <nsh> 'night
1301 2013-04-24 07:47:36 <jchp> night
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1325 2013-04-24 08:05:50 <Edward_Black> Hello respected bitcoin devs. Does any of the Zerocoin paper authors visit this fine IRC venue ? (and, if not, would anyone be willing to help me out understanding some basic Zerocoin proposal details)?
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1329 2013-04-24 08:06:47 <nsh> dunno, Edward_Black. what do you want clarification on though?
1330 2013-04-24 08:06:58 <nsh> (someone here might be able to help if you state a clear question)
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1333 2013-04-24 08:08:51 <Edward_Black> question 1
1334 2013-04-24 08:08:56 <Edward_Black> nsh baically, as far as I understand, there are three distinct "constructs" involved - RSA accumulator, a "mint" transaction that "destroys" a bitcoin and adds a "record" to the accumulator, and a "spend" transaction which is a zero-knowledge proof and is huge
1335 2013-04-24 08:09:04 <Edward_Black> is that correct ?
1336 2013-04-24 08:09:06 <Edward_Black> question 2
1337 2013-04-24 08:09:32 <nsh> sounds about right (i only scanned the proposal the other day)
1338 2013-04-24 08:09:36 <Edward_Black> When zerocoins are being made (mint) and reclaimed (spend), does the accumulator itself increase in size ?
1339 2013-04-24 08:10:08 <Edward_Black> Or are (mint) and (spend) the actual bloat sources, while accumulator merely changes its value during "update" ?
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1341 2013-04-24 08:10:42 <Luke-Jr> Edward_Black: IIRC the accumulator increases size too
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1344 2013-04-24 08:13:05 * nsh admits ignorance
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1351 2013-04-24 08:19:48 <Luke-Jr> wow, my Ubuntu netbook from ~3 years ago is still a supported release for a few more months *shocked*
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1359 2013-04-24 08:23:05 <nsh> Luke-Jr, supported by canonical?
1360 2013-04-24 08:23:22 <Luke-Jr> nsh: I presume
1361 2013-04-24 08:23:24 <Luke-Jr> Lucid
1362 2013-04-24 08:23:55 <nsh> Magic Stallmanball says "COMMIT IT TO THE FLAMES"
1363 2013-04-24 08:24:13 <nsh> not really, i miss my netbook
1364 2013-04-24 08:24:15 <nsh> i might get another
1365 2013-04-24 08:24:21 andytoshi has joined
1366 2013-04-24 08:24:22 <nsh> when magic plastic card thing starts working again
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1372 2013-04-24 08:29:16 * Luke-Jr ponders whether to leave it alone (IIRC, wifi was randomly flaky), upgrade it to 12.04, or put Debian on it
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1379 2013-04-24 08:36:16 <zw> debbiannn
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1381 2013-04-24 08:37:34 <zw> prob only installer that will work on the first try with lvm full disk encrypt and grub actually installs
1382 2013-04-24 08:38:07 <nsh> debian is a great way to find out the latest features of last decade's linux
1383 2013-04-24 08:38:10 JackStorm has quit (Quit: .)
1384 2013-04-24 08:38:21 <nsh> (kidding on; it's cool)
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1386 2013-04-24 08:38:24 <zw> i need no more
1387 2013-04-24 08:38:32 <nsh> aye
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1392 2013-04-24 08:39:10 <zw> i read somewhere that users are much more willing to spend cpu cycles on fancy window decorations than comp security
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1396 2013-04-24 08:40:37 <SomeoneWeird> zw, not hard to believe
1397 2013-04-24 08:40:42 <SomeoneWeird> pretty!
1398 2013-04-24 08:41:36 <zw> somehow they just need to make the fancy decoration do the security also
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1400 2013-04-24 08:42:15 <zw> like for evey drop shadow, you get a secure channel of communication
1401 2013-04-24 08:42:17 <zw> fair trade
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1422 2013-04-24 09:00:21 <sipa> zw: it's very normal... you can see fancy window decorations
1423 2013-04-24 09:00:26 <sipa> you can't see security
1424 2013-04-24 09:00:46 <sipa> and when it's intended to be there, you don't even know if it's any good
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1431 2013-04-24 09:10:18 <zw> i got this book, "rethinking the network economy" from a box of books withdrawn from our library, the guy opens with "these rules of business endure because economic forces do not change -- and cannot be changed by - mere changes in technology..."
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1434 2013-04-24 09:11:15 <zw> seems very untrue, maybe thats why it was withdrawn hehe. stan liebowitz 2002
1435 2013-04-24 09:11:56 <Luke-Jr> zw: what seems untrue about it?
1436 2013-04-24 09:14:16 <zw> good question..
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1438 2013-04-24 09:15:53 <zw> i guess if technology changes cause certain goods to be consumed and certain other goods not as consumed, that would have effects on business models perhaps
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1476 2013-04-24 09:55:30 <Sebo> Is there any way to get getreceivedbyaddress for any address (i.e. not only the ones from own wallet) and that does not relay on one external service but on the localy stored blockchanin?
1477 2013-04-24 09:56:59 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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1479 2013-04-24 09:58:19 <jouke> Sebo: you could take a look at: https://github.com/znort987/blockparser
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1484 2013-04-24 10:00:04 <sipa> Sebo: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/10090/how-to-get-an-addresss-balance-with-the-bitcoin-client/10101#10101
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1507 2013-04-24 10:18:12 <iwilcox> Good answer :)
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1595 2013-04-24 11:50:41 <SomeoneWeird> how much hashing power would you need to reset the entire chain (back to the genesis block)?
1596 2013-04-24 11:50:48 <SomeoneWeird> someone care todo the math? :P
1597 2013-04-24 11:50:57 <petertodd> depends on how long you are willing to wait
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1606 2013-04-24 12:02:49 <sipa> SomeoneWeird: how long can it take?
1607 2013-04-24 12:03:01 <SomeoneWeird> haha well
1608 2013-04-24 12:03:05 <SomeoneWeird> good point
1609 2013-04-24 12:03:08 <SomeoneWeird> lets say a month?
1610 2013-04-24 12:03:54 <sipa> 411 TH
1611 2013-04-24 12:03:57 <sipa> /s
1612 2013-04-24 12:04:26 <Scrat> 1.21 gigahash
1613 2013-04-24 12:05:17 <SomeoneWeird> how much are the 70gh asics?
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1615 2013-04-24 12:05:23 <SomeoneWeird> or whatever the avalon ones are
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1622 2013-04-24 12:15:14 <nsh> SomeoneWeird, you could replace the chain with a new one starting from the genesis block, but it would have to be longer (workwise) than the existing chain, which has 200k blocks
1623 2013-04-24 12:15:30 <SomeoneWeird> i know how bitcoin works :)
1624 2013-04-24 12:15:36 <nsh> ok :)
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1626 2013-04-24 12:15:46 <SomeoneWeird> just too tired to figure out the math hehe
1627 2013-04-24 12:16:09 <michagogo> Also, you can't, at least not as long as the reference client is the majority of users
1628 2013-04-24 12:16:14 <michagogo> Because of checkpoints
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1630 2013-04-24 12:18:53 <nsh> the average time is derivable from the equation which gives the probability of success after z confirms
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1633 2013-04-24 12:20:02 <nsh> discussion here: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/1170/why-is-6-the-number-of-confirms-that-is-considered-secure
1634 2013-04-24 12:20:08 <sipa> nsh: it's much easier than that
1635 2013-04-24 12:20:18 <nsh> oh?
1636 2013-04-24 12:20:30 <sipa> nsh: divide the amount of work in the chain by the time you take to overtake it
1637 2013-04-24 12:20:33 <sipa> = hashrate you need
1638 2013-04-24 12:20:40 <nsh> right
1639 2013-04-24 12:20:52 <nsh> makes sense
1640 2013-04-24 12:22:09 <nsh> sipa, is the total historical work readily visible somewhere?
1641 2013-04-24 12:22:32 <sipa> duh, it's tracked by every node to be able to know which chain to consider best
1642 2013-04-24 12:22:56 <sipa> if it wasn't, you wouldn't need to know it either :)
1643 2013-04-24 12:23:06 <nsh> sure
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1645 2013-04-24 12:23:19 <nsh> but is it shown on blockchain.info or blockexplorer
1646 2013-04-24 12:23:30 * nsh isn't running a node atm
1647 2013-04-24 12:23:35 <sipa> not that i know, no
1648 2013-04-24 12:23:39 <nsh> k
1649 2013-04-24 12:23:41 <sipa> SetBestChain: new best=00000000000001d84235852680bd427eba17ff03a23086d843136a306db6edf8 height=232890 log2_work=69.854436 tx=16659115 date=2013-04-24 09:43:09
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1651 2013-04-24 12:23:53 <sipa> ;;calc 2**69.854436
1652 2013-04-24 12:23:53 <gribble> 1067285394304794230784
1653 2013-04-24 12:24:17 <sipa> ^- amount of work (=expected number of hashes) in the chain
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1656 2013-04-24 12:25:18 <michagogo> 1.067285394304794 septilion hashes o_O
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1658 2013-04-24 12:25:31 <nsh> nice
1659 2013-04-24 12:25:39 <nsh> someone should make a big LED clock for that somewhere
1660 2013-04-24 12:25:46 <Sofox> I've some questions, that recent publishing Cablegate to the blockchain, was that done via signature or public key?
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1662 2013-04-24 12:26:48 <Sofox> I'm concerned about this "feature" being abused in the future, and I'm wondering if there's a way to impede it.
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1664 2013-04-24 12:27:14 <Scrat> Sofox: I wouldn't be too worried about illegal numbers
1665 2013-04-24 12:27:32 <Sofox> What about base64 encoded child porn?
1666 2013-04-24 12:27:56 <Sofox> I'm kinda concerned.
1667 2013-04-24 12:28:18 <nsh> ohnoes numbers!
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1671 2013-04-24 12:28:45 <nsh> Sofox, have you read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_prime ?
1672 2013-04-24 12:28:53 ThomasV has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1673 2013-04-24 12:28:57 <nsh> do you know about the DeCSS story?
1674 2013-04-24 12:29:09 <nsh> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/
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1676 2013-04-24 12:30:13 <Sofox> My point is, most countries have very restrictive laws on CP, if someone added CP to the blockchain, wouldn't it end up on the computer of everyone who used Bitcoin?
1677 2013-04-24 12:30:23 <Sofox> And the only way to remove it would be to delete the Bitcoin client?
1678 2013-04-24 12:30:33 <shesek> * #bitcoin :Cannot send to channel
1679 2013-04-24 12:30:47 <shesek> am I banned or something? I can join the channel just fine, but not talk
1680 2013-04-24 12:30:49 <nsh> Sofox, you'll need to keep going a few steps before i see the problem
1681 2013-04-24 12:31:04 <nsh> shesek, you might be "quieted" (like a ban but you can still join)
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1684 2013-04-24 12:31:43 <nsh> * #bitcoin q shesek!*@* SomeoneWeird!~SomeoneWe@unaffiliated/someoneweird 1366259893
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1686 2013-04-24 12:31:49 <Sofox> Alright, so if everyone who uses Bitcoin has child porn on their computer, then anyone using Bitcoin can immediately be arrested, charged and possibly convicted.
1687 2013-04-24 12:31:58 <Scrat> Sofox: said CP would not only have to be base64 decoded but also recombined in the correct order
1688 2013-04-24 12:32:09 <nsh> you already have CP on your computer
1689 2013-04-24 12:32:15 <nsh> if you put the bits together int he right order
1690 2013-04-24 12:32:22 <shesek> ah, right, I forgot about that
1691 2013-04-24 12:32:23 <nsh> the law generally requires part
1692 2013-04-24 12:32:27 <Sofox> In places like the US, posession of Child Porn is a "strict liability" offense, which means that you don't have to even know about the CP, if it's on your computer, you can be arrested.
1693 2013-04-24 12:32:27 <Scrat> so no, they wont have CP on their computer, they will have specific data that after some transformation is converted to CP
1694 2013-04-24 12:32:37 <Scrat> just as you can do on any file really
1695 2013-04-24 12:33:08 <nsh> if someone changed the bitcoin client so it tried to parse random parts of the blockchain as images and display them on the screen
1696 2013-04-24 12:33:12 <nsh> then that might cause more of a problem
1697 2013-04-24 12:33:12 <shesek> he did it a few days ago, I assumed it was temporary
1698 2013-04-24 12:33:18 <sipa> Sofox: so, any ISP which has CP stored in the socks proxy cache is liable?
1699 2013-04-24 12:33:21 <shesek> forgot about that by now
1700 2013-04-24 12:33:28 <nsh> shesek, i'm sure if you ask nicely...
1701 2013-04-24 12:33:28 <shesek> is it never going to be removed?
1702 2013-04-24 12:33:31 <Scrat> nsh: it's not that easy
1703 2013-04-24 12:33:41 <SomeoneWeird> shesek, why did I do it again?
1704 2013-04-24 12:33:45 <Scrat> how do you know which part belonds to which image
1705 2013-04-24 12:34:02 <nsh> right, you'd have to work pretty hard to get a visible image
1706 2013-04-24 12:34:06 <shesek> SomeoneWeird, I mentioned the "forbidden word" in response to someone else talking about it
1707 2013-04-24 12:34:13 <nsh> *parseable
1708 2013-04-24 12:34:29 <nsh> you mean "Aristocrats!"
1709 2013-04-24 12:34:29 <nsh> ?
1710 2013-04-24 12:34:40 <Sofox> But what about the 2.5Mb of Wikileaks cables?
1711 2013-04-24 12:35:33 <shesek> thanks SomeoneWeird
1712 2013-04-24 12:36:08 <nsh> Sofox, i don't know if there'll be any fallout from it. i suspect not
1713 2013-04-24 12:36:31 <michagogo> שסק: any idea what the Israeli laws on the subject are by any chance?
1714 2013-04-24 12:37:42 <shesek> nope, not really
1715 2013-04-24 12:37:57 <shesek> your nickname seems familiar... do I know you from somewhere?
1716 2013-04-24 12:38:03 <michagogo> Maybe
1717 2013-04-24 12:38:30 <shesek> were you ever on nix?
1718 2013-04-24 12:38:37 <shesek> (the IRC server)
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1720 2013-04-24 12:39:23 <michagogo> No, afaik
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1740 2013-04-24 12:59:54 <Sofox> The Wikileaks cables, are they encoded sequentially on the blockchain?
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1742 2013-04-24 13:00:51 <Sofox> And if there was something published to the blockchain that the Bitcoin community in general believed would harm Bitcoins to leave in, would there be a way to remove it?
1743 2013-04-24 13:00:52 <SomeoneWeird> ?
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1748 2013-04-24 13:03:31 <Sofox> I mean, if malicious information was added to the blockchain, like CP or something, would there be a way to remove it if the Bitcoin community decided that having it remain on the blockchain would be too great a legal threat to Bitcoin users?
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1752 2013-04-24 13:04:40 <Sofox> I mean, there's no way to undo it right? Once in the blockchain it's there forever? As long as Bitcoin exists?
1753 2013-04-24 13:04:52 <lianj> yes
1754 2013-04-24 13:05:44 <Sofox> Isn't that a potential vunerablility?
1755 2013-04-24 13:05:57 <sipa> why knows?
1756 2013-04-24 13:06:00 <sipa> *who knows
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1758 2013-04-24 13:06:07 <Sofox> Right.
1759 2013-04-24 13:06:11 <Sofox> Well, thanks!
1760 2013-04-24 13:06:27 <Sofox> Bye.
1761 2013-04-24 13:06:53 <SomeoneWeird> Sofox, only if all the clients agree on it
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1764 2013-04-24 13:07:21 <zw> man, i need to stop clicking on forum links
1765 2013-04-24 13:07:25 <Sofox> Wait, so if enough clients don't agree with it, the information can be removed?
1766 2013-04-24 13:07:25 <zw> portal to hell
1767 2013-04-24 13:07:41 <Sofox> Can this happen even after the original transaction?
1768 2013-04-24 13:08:00 <kjj> anyone that wants to can mess with their block files all they want
1769 2013-04-24 13:08:42 <kjj> but you need to keep in mind that bitcoin does not store arbitrary data
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1773 2013-04-24 13:09:12 <Sofox> kjj: But what about in the blockchain signatures?
1774 2013-04-24 13:09:21 <kjj> the best anyone could hope for was some data that was acceptable to bitcoin that, with some outside transformation, could become the bad information
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1777 2013-04-24 13:10:32 <Killdozer> Is there a guide/article somewhere about what is the preferred way to deal with transaction fees when using the JSON Rpc API? There don't seem to be a function to check what each transaction is required in fees or how many kilobytes it will take, so that fee can be calculated.
1778 2013-04-24 13:10:32 <SomeoneWeird> <kjj> but you need to keep in mind that bitcoin does not store arbitrary data < ?
1779 2013-04-24 13:10:54 <Sofox> This presentation talks about storing data on the blockchain: http://www.slideshare.net/dakami/black-ops-of-tcpip-2011-black-hat-usa-2011
1780 2013-04-24 13:11:08 <melvster1> if sipa is around ... i was wondering about an alt coin that supported RSA in the script .... would you reuse an existing OP_CODE, take a reserved one, or make a new one?
1781 2013-04-24 13:11:08 <Sofox> Apparently, even having a bitcoin file system is possible... somehow.
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1784 2013-04-24 13:11:35 <melvster1> note im not trying to enter into an RSA vs ECDSA religious war :)
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1789 2013-04-24 13:12:43 <kjj> yeah, totally not arbitrary
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1798 2013-04-24 13:21:03 <epscy> miners can add arbitary data
1799 2013-04-24 13:21:07 <epscy> but not a lot of it
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1811 2013-04-24 13:30:55 <Vladimir_> hey guys, could someone please send me some test coins to mxgATEQewsWw5oFyRSLDZBt7GVtEtw5EQw . Need to get a new merchant developers going.
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1814 2013-04-24 13:34:25 <petertodd> Vladimir_: http://tpfaucet.appspot.com/
1815 2013-04-24 13:34:40 <Vladimir_> ok thanks
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1909 2013-04-24 14:31:16 <pagoda> The, "mrkl_tree":[] data in a rawblock from blockexplorer.com, are those the hashes calculated from the "data" element of a transaction?
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1919 2013-04-24 14:35:54 <lianj> pagoda: data element? the merkle tree is calculated from the transaction hashes
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1923 2013-04-24 14:38:10 <pagoda> here is an example of a raw transaction of a block: http://blockexplorer.com/rawtx/60c25dda8d41f8d3d7d5c6249e2ea1b05a25bf7ae2ad6d904b512b31f997e1a1
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1925 2013-04-24 14:39:17 <lianj> pagoda: yes. and?
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1929 2013-04-24 14:39:34 <pagoda> there one can find a "hash value", yet a "getblocktemplate" request does not return a "hash", but rather "data" element
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1933 2013-04-24 14:40:37 <lianj> i think you mix stuff up
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1938 2013-04-24 14:40:56 <pagoda> lianj: sorry, some background: I am trying to write a miner
1939 2013-04-24 14:40:57 <lianj> the hash value for that tx is the "hash":"60c25dda8d41f8d3d7d5c6249e2ea1b05a25bf7ae2ad6d904b512b31f997e1a1"
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1943 2013-04-24 14:41:59 <lianj> im not into the mining code, but i think data from getblocktemplate is a blockheader
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1950 2013-04-24 14:43:15 <pagoda> lianj: that is exactly the opposite, "getwork" returns a block header. Yet "getblocktemplate" returns data that is used to build a blockheader
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1955 2013-04-24 14:44:41 <pagoda> lianj: here is the data recieved from getblocktemplate - https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Getblocktemplate#From_scratch
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1957 2013-04-24 14:45:14 <sipa> the block consists of a block header + transactions
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1960 2013-04-24 14:45:32 <sipa> each transaction has a txid, equal to the hash of its serialized form
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1962 2013-04-24 14:45:40 <Killdozer> What is the preferred way to deal with transaction fees when using the JSON Rpc API? There don't seem to be a function to check what each transaction is required in fees or how many kilobytes it will take, so that fee can be calculated
1963 2013-04-24 14:45:52 <sipa> these txids are the leaves of the merkle tree
1964 2013-04-24 14:46:09 <sipa> the root of the merkle tree is stored in the block header
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1971 2013-04-24 14:48:57 <pagoda> sipa: I ask this because I would like to test my code. Since it is written in php, all the documentation & "go to code" solutions dont work quite as well.
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1978 2013-04-24 14:53:45 <lianj> pagoda: use testnet-in-a-box
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1994 2013-04-24 15:00:31 <pagoda> lianj: thanks, but I am aware of testnet. Although it is still not a very good testing method. I am looking for a way that I can implement something closer to UnitTests. That is, test every function of the code at an atomic level...
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1997 2013-04-24 15:02:06 <lianj> yes you need both. so whats your problem? how to generate a merkle tree or the whole block header?
1998 2013-04-24 15:02:14 <melvster1> Paypal President: We're thinking about adding Bitcoin (2:50) (bloomberg.com)
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2001 2013-04-24 15:04:02 <pagoda> lianj: just with the merkle tree, thus far
2002 2013-04-24 15:04:08 <sipa> melvster1: your scheme works, but it's pretty useless, as it means both sides have the private bitcoin key, no?
2003 2013-04-24 15:04:32 i2pRelay has joined
2004 2013-04-24 15:04:57 <tumak> melvster1: that sounds like they'll just do their own web wallet
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2007 2013-04-24 15:05:21 <tumak> couldn't imagine how an actual ppusd/ppbtc exchange would work :(
2008 2013-04-24 15:05:35 <sipa> tumak: duhh... paypal _is_ a webwallet
2009 2013-04-24 15:05:45 <sipa> (for other currencies)
2010 2013-04-24 15:05:46 <tumak> sipa: yep
2011 2013-04-24 15:05:51 <tumak> sipa: which is what i'm implying
2012 2013-04-24 15:05:58 <tumak> they'll clone blockchain.info
2013 2013-04-24 15:06:05 <tumak> and call it a day
2014 2013-04-24 15:06:11 <tumak> no actual sending of fiat to btc
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2035 2013-04-24 15:12:11 <sterad> Anyone here good with C? ( programming language) PM me
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2041 2013-04-24 15:17:43 <tumak> sterad: just state your business you need help with :)
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2051 2013-04-24 15:24:24 <sterad> tumak: Well I need help with writing a simple buffer overflow challenge in C
2052 2013-04-24 15:24:35 <sterad> http://www.cs.ucsb.edu/~chris/teaching/cs290/projects/vuln1.c simple programs such as that
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2054 2013-04-24 15:25:33 <tumak> sure
2055 2013-04-24 15:26:06 <tumak> * we are paraniod, so we _really_ clear the environment
2056 2013-04-24 15:26:09 <tumak> i like that part
2057 2013-04-24 15:27:33 saulimus has joined
2058 2013-04-24 15:27:53 <tumak> sterad: so whats the problem? nopsled in argv[0] and youre good to go
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2060 2013-04-24 15:28:29 <sterad> tumak: writing the actual vulnerable programs :P
2061 2013-04-24 15:28:33 <sterad> those are just examples
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2064 2013-04-24 15:28:49 <tumak> sterad: hehe
2065 2013-04-24 15:28:57 <tumak> sterad: i think the idea is sound
2066 2013-04-24 15:29:11 <tumak> ie killed places where to put shellcode/eips
2067 2013-04-24 15:29:14 <sterad> HM2: suggested I transform on a string
2068 2013-04-24 15:29:32 <sterad> <HM2> e.g. write a function to convert strings to uppercase by subtracting or adding byte by byte
2069 2013-04-24 15:29:42 <sterad> <HM2> but then have it not check the range
2070 2013-04-24 15:29:43 <tumak> yup
2071 2013-04-24 15:29:47 <tumak> restrict character set
2072 2013-04-24 15:29:50 <sterad> <HM2> so it turns bytes in to null bytes
2073 2013-04-24 15:29:51 <tumak> only to printable characters
2074 2013-04-24 15:29:53 <tumak> ie isascii
2075 2013-04-24 15:30:01 <tumak> that is actually common case in real world
2076 2013-04-24 15:30:06 <sterad> Not sure how this could be coded in C :P
2077 2013-04-24 15:30:09 <tumak> attacker then needs to do only partial eip override
2078 2013-04-24 15:30:39 workman has joined
2079 2013-04-24 15:30:59 <tumak> sterad: http://underhanded.xcott.com/
2080 2013-04-24 15:31:17 zylche has joined
2081 2013-04-24 15:31:20 <tumak> to get inspiration on non-bof logic bugs :)
2082 2013-04-24 15:33:53 <sterad> If only I could code in C :P
2083 2013-04-24 15:34:04 <tumak> hehe
2084 2013-04-24 15:34:07 anarchy5 has joined
2085 2013-04-24 15:34:11 <tumak> youre the ideal subject to write vuln code
2086 2013-04-24 15:34:19 <tumak> sterad: just port something from java
2087 2013-04-24 15:34:31 <tumak> and assume it does all the usual babysitting :)
2088 2013-04-24 15:34:40 <tumak> ie checking array boundaries for you
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2110 2013-04-24 15:52:11 <jgm> Does bitcoind support using nlocktime to broadcast a transaction and then change it afterwards? Any restrictions on it of which I should be aware before I start playing with it?
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2114 2013-04-24 15:56:34 Ham has joined
2115 2013-04-24 15:57:17 <Ham> hi guys
2116 2013-04-24 15:57:34 <Ham> i cant get websockets working :\
2117 2013-04-24 15:57:41 <Ham> not an uncommon problem i'm sure :)
2118 2013-04-24 15:58:21 <Scrat> Ham: Bitcoin does not use websockets
2119 2013-04-24 15:58:37 <Ham> oh sorry :)
2120 2013-04-24 15:58:48 <Ham> i should be talking on the MtGox channel
2121 2013-04-24 15:58:51 <Ham> my bad
2122 2013-04-24 15:58:54 <Ham> cyas :)
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2165 2013-04-24 16:29:46 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #287: FAILURE in 25 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/287/
2166 2013-04-24 16:30:02 <BlueMatt> hey, I thought I shut you down
2167 2013-04-24 16:30:14 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #288: ABORTED in 15 sec: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/288/
2168 2013-04-24 16:30:29 <gmaxwell> "It's allliiive!"
2169 2013-04-24 16:30:42 <tumak> attack of the rogue sentient VC bots
2170 2013-04-24 16:30:45 <BlueMatt> heh, well pull-tester should be coming back soonish
2171 2013-04-24 16:30:53 ToryJujube_ has joined
2172 2013-04-24 16:31:08 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: re: wine, have you tried it with the datadir in tmpfs?
2173 2013-04-24 16:31:33 <gmaxwell> or perhaps you should just have a switch to disable the reorg test and disable it on windows? :(
2174 2013-04-24 16:32:16 marr has joined
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2176 2013-04-24 16:32:39 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yes, datadir has always been in tmpfs
2177 2013-04-24 16:32:48 i2pRelay has joined
2178 2013-04-24 16:32:50 <BlueMatt> yea, for now reorg test is disabled inthe wine tests
2179 2013-04-24 16:33:36 anarchy5 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2180 2013-04-24 16:33:47 <gmaxwell> concerning, but at least you've run it manually on real windows.
2181 2013-04-24 16:34:03 <BlueMatt> yea, Im not too concerned, though Im not a big fan
2182 2013-04-24 16:34:11 <sipa> of windows?
2183 2013-04-24 16:34:20 <BlueMatt> of it failing, sorry
2184 2013-04-24 16:34:25 <BlueMatt> but, yes, of windows too
2185 2013-04-24 16:34:25 <sipa> Oh.
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2188 2013-04-24 16:37:57 <HM2> this PayPal hearsay is fascinating
2189 2013-04-24 16:38:41 <jgm> HM2: ?
2190 2013-04-24 16:38:47 <BlueMatt> didnt someone say it was stated in the bloomberg video?
2191 2013-04-24 16:38:55 * BlueMatt hasnt watched it
2192 2013-04-24 16:39:05 <klmist> would be nice if they support BTC denominated paypal transactions rather than just use it as a way to top up in USD
2193 2013-04-24 16:39:50 <tumak> i'm having my doubts too
2194 2013-04-24 16:39:57 <tumak> at best they'll replace bitinstant
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2196 2013-04-24 16:40:07 <tumak> ie btc->ppusd
2197 2013-04-24 16:40:09 <tumak> but not vice versa
2198 2013-04-24 16:40:35 <klmist> they're in a great position to do both (with verified accounts anyway)
2199 2013-04-24 16:40:49 o3u has joined
2200 2013-04-24 16:40:53 <tumak> doubt it
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2202 2013-04-24 16:41:21 <tumak> their fraud prevention is quite antiquated so they simply rely on chargebacks
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2209 2013-04-24 16:42:37 <HM2> I think they'll likely add it as a funding source for incoming only
2210 2013-04-24 16:42:39 <tumak> klmist: but what do we know, maybe they'll come up with something creative
2211 2013-04-24 16:42:51 <tumak> like accepting tx as proof of delivery
2212 2013-04-24 16:42:51 <HM2> they won't allow withdrawals in BTC, that'd be suicide
2213 2013-04-24 16:42:56 <tumak> that would be huge helper for otc
2214 2013-04-24 16:44:07 <HM2> they can do all the KYC and account verification with deposits because they'll have someone to come down on. If they allow withdrawals to arbitrary BTC addresses then you can just say your account was hacked
2215 2013-04-24 16:44:31 <tumak> it gets worse
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2217 2013-04-24 16:44:57 <tumak> 1) fraudster sets up verified/whatever it takes account which can withdraw in btc
2218 2013-04-24 16:45:15 <klmist> then they close the account and ban you from opening a new one
2219 2013-04-24 16:45:24 <tumak> 2) he sends lots of usd from hacked paypals to his account
2220 2013-04-24 16:45:26 <tumak> 3) ....
2221 2013-04-24 16:45:40 <tumak> klmist: sure
2222 2013-04-24 16:45:45 <tumak> but by then, you've got your btc
2223 2013-04-24 16:45:55 <klmist> well.. that's not paypal's problem :)
2224 2013-04-24 16:46:02 <tumak> it is
2225 2013-04-24 16:46:21 <tumak> because hacked accounts will hit you with yet another class action lawsuit
2226 2013-04-24 16:46:28 <tumak> implying it was in fact paypal who stole their money
2227 2013-04-24 16:47:12 <HM2> well centralised accounts do have some benefits
2228 2013-04-24 16:47:13 jrra has joined
2229 2013-04-24 16:47:16 <klmist> i think it would fail.. if people's accounts get hacked because of a reason that is their fault, not much you can do
2230 2013-04-24 16:47:27 <HM2> my credit card company has stopped fraud on my account several times
2231 2013-04-24 16:47:30 <tumak> klmist: however it happens a lot
2232 2013-04-24 16:47:44 <tumak> klmist: and chargebacks are only thing to prevent that
2233 2013-04-24 16:47:55 <klmist> the only reason banks chargeback is because they can screw their merchants
2234 2013-04-24 16:47:56 <tumak> simply claim you were hacked and they'll chargeback almost any tx
2235 2013-04-24 16:48:05 rowit has joined
2236 2013-04-24 16:48:21 <tumak> klmist: banks are a bit different though
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2238 2013-04-24 16:48:34 <tumak> pp dispute process is decent in comparison imo
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2241 2013-04-24 16:49:15 <tumak> for example, at one point i ordered "unlimited" hotfile.com account
2242 2013-04-24 16:49:34 <HM2> for porn? :P
2243 2013-04-24 16:49:40 <tumak> well, after downloading 200gb in a week, they blocked me claiming i was reselling their service
2244 2013-04-24 16:49:50 <tumak> because apparently 200gb a week is impossible for home user
2245 2013-04-24 16:50:05 <tumak> (typical US guy thinking everyone got 16mbps adsl or something :)
2246 2013-04-24 16:50:18 <gonffen> nobody in US has 16mbps adsl ;)
2247 2013-04-24 16:50:21 <tumak> HM2: um, lets say for backups :)
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2249 2013-04-24 16:51:14 <HM2> backups are good
2250 2013-04-24 16:51:18 <gonffen> 200gb is a lot to download AND consume in a non-commerical way
2251 2013-04-24 16:51:27 <HM2> not really gonffen
2252 2013-04-24 16:51:29 Diapolo has joined
2253 2013-04-24 16:51:30 <gonffen> but they shouldn't have done that :P
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2255 2013-04-24 16:52:26 <gonffen> maybe not if you're downloading full blu-ray rips, but that seems kind of silly to me
2256 2013-04-24 16:53:00 <HM2> it won't be long before streaming HD movies is completely normal
2257 2013-04-24 16:53:04 <HM2> it's already almost there
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2259 2013-04-24 16:53:36 <HM2> but yeah, 200 GB is a lot
2260 2013-04-24 16:53:48 <Scrat> 200 GB is 4 full bluray rips :p
2261 2013-04-24 16:54:23 <HM2> anyway, I thought you could add arbitrary payment methods to ebay?
2262 2013-04-24 16:54:23 <HM2> the problem is nobody likes using anything other than paypal
2263 2013-04-24 16:54:32 <gonffen> Scrat: I know right! That's ~8 hours of content!
2264 2013-04-24 16:54:50 <HM2> afaik there's nothing stopping Bitpay interfacing with eBay right now
2265 2013-04-24 16:54:54 <gonffen> ebay strongly warns against using any other payment method
2266 2013-04-24 16:55:50 FredEE has joined
2267 2013-04-24 16:56:16 <HM2> I have no idea how Paypals acquisition by eBay was allowed
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2271 2013-04-24 16:56:58 <helo> because freedom?
2272 2013-04-24 16:57:09 <HM2> oh please
2273 2013-04-24 16:57:10 <helo> 'murca etc
2274 2013-04-24 16:57:36 <gonffen> it's a pretty logical acquisition
2275 2013-04-24 16:58:01 <HM2> if they said they were only going to accept American Express or VISA or Mastercard and not the other 2 then there'd be uproar
2276 2013-04-24 16:58:07 <gonffen> if they hadn't, they would've surely ended up making their own payment processor anyways
2277 2013-04-24 16:59:02 <gonffen> for example, when you purchase something on amazon.com through a third party, it is handled by 'amazon payments'
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2279 2013-04-24 17:00:01 <HM2> yeah
2280 2013-04-24 17:00:02 <BlueMatt> ok, pull-tester is doing good, sorry for the disruption
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2284 2013-04-24 17:02:12 <gonffen> oh apparently amazon allows options as well http://finance.yahoo.com/news/bitpay-integrates-bitcoin-fulfillment-amazon-133000525.html
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2290 2013-04-24 17:04:30 <Diapolo> BlueMatt: Can you restart the build for #2552 :)?
2291 2013-04-24 17:04:50 <BlueMatt> Diapolo: I think I did, but whats the commit sha of the tip?
2292 2013-04-24 17:04:58 i2pRelay has joined
2293 2013-04-24 17:06:19 polrpaul has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2295 2013-04-24 17:06:25 <HM2> I do wonder whether by the time Bitcoin scripted contracts come to light, that things like escrow and mediation will have moved off chain to guys like Paypal
2296 2013-04-24 17:06:39 <HM2> could ultimately end up being features not used by the mainstream
2297 2013-04-24 17:06:54 XRPTrader2 has joined
2298 2013-04-24 17:07:20 <Diapolo> https://github.com/Diapolo/bitcoin/commit/61032f894247f7a4158ec5b41067bcd7c3f35910
2299 2013-04-24 17:08:05 <BlueMatt> nope, already gone, itl retry soonish
2300 2013-04-24 17:08:19 <Diapolo> okay :)
2301 2013-04-24 17:08:21 <Diapolo> thanks
2302 2013-04-24 17:09:56 <Killdozer> What is the preferred way to deal with transaction fees when sending bitcoins from the JSON Rpc API? There don't seem to be a function to check what each transaction is required in fees or how many kilobytes it will take, so that fee can be calculated.
2303 2013-04-24 17:09:58 <Diapolo> sipa: Could your levelDB patch corrupt the block database?
2304 2013-04-24 17:10:33 polrpaul has joined
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2306 2013-04-24 17:10:48 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: you mean the file descriptors cap?
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2308 2013-04-24 17:11:05 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: yeah
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2311 2013-04-24 17:11:32 <gmaxwell> The universe is not sane if it does.
2312 2013-04-24 17:11:33 <Diapolo> I integrated it, did a build and startet my mainnet test-wallet, which told me I need to reindex... testnet wallet didn't do this
2313 2013-04-24 17:11:44 <jgm> I'm playing with contracts now to see what state it's in. There are certainly some interesting ideas in there, but I do wonder about some of the implementation details. Guess I'll be finding out...
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2316 2013-04-24 17:12:31 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: only other change I integrated was an update for https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2553
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2320 2013-04-24 17:13:10 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: exact error was LevelDB read failure: IO error: C:\Users\Diapolo\AppData\Roaming\Bitcoin\chainstate\053590.sst: Could not create random access file.
2321 2013-04-24 17:13:30 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: we've had intermittent corruption reports from windows users already. Any chance your prior shutdown was unclean?
2322 2013-04-24 17:13:37 <gmaxwell> uh... how many files are in chainstate?
2323 2013-04-24 17:14:00 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: now, it was a clean shutdown
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2325 2013-04-24 17:14:05 <Diapolo> no
2326 2013-04-24 17:14:09 <Diapolo> let me see
2327 2013-04-24 17:14:21 <Diapolo> 119
2328 2013-04-24 17:14:53 <gmaxwell> :-/
2329 2013-04-24 17:14:55 <Diapolo> and the testnet datadir has only 12 in chainstate
2330 2013-04-24 17:16:04 <Diapolo> so we added a limit of 64 and I have 119, is that the problem?
2331 2013-04-24 17:16:17 <gmaxwell> No.
2332 2013-04-24 17:16:32 <gmaxwell> The limit is just for concurrently open.
2333 2013-04-24 17:16:41 <Diapolo> that was what I meant, sorry ^^
2334 2013-04-24 17:16:49 <gmaxwell> I'm almost completely sure that change has nothing to do with your issue.
2335 2013-04-24 17:17:01 <gmaxwell> This thread is concerning: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=155140.0
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2338 2013-04-24 17:18:22 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: strange thing is this imediately happened after I integrated sipas patch, but I'm using current Git master and never saw that error before, at least I never noticed
2339 2013-04-24 17:19:20 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yes, strange leveldb bugs are a very significant issue...and I dont know how to build a test-harness to debug them :(
2340 2013-04-24 17:19:23 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: anything I can do to assis further without just doing the reindex?
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2344 2013-04-24 17:21:43 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: it's setup in that state now? you get the same error every time?
2345 2013-04-24 17:22:04 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: I clicked abort to keep the state, didn't restart yet
2346 2013-04-24 17:22:15 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2347 2013-04-24 17:22:20 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: try restarting again without the reindex.
2348 2013-04-24 17:22:24 <Diapolo> Am I right that this patch is the only one we are missing with our LevelDB code? https://code.google.com/p/leveldb/source/detail?r=514c943a8e9ce1b06c55ae5e47008f6b0854b36c
2349 2013-04-24 17:22:54 ielo has joined
2350 2013-04-24 17:23:12 <Diapolo> Same error, different file:
2351 2013-04-24 17:23:13 <Diapolo> 2013-04-24 17:00:03 LevelDB read failure: IO error: C:\Users\Diapolo\AppData\Roaming\Bitcoin\chainstate\053696.sst: Could not create random access file.
2352 2013-04-24 17:24:12 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: great, can you shutdown, zip up the chainstate director and put it somewhere I can get it? it should be not terribly huge.
2353 2013-04-24 17:24:31 <gmaxwell> you should then be able to delete the directory and it will rebuild it a little faster than a full reindex.
2354 2013-04-24 17:24:32 anarchy5 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2355 2013-04-24 17:25:03 xenesis_ has joined
2356 2013-04-24 17:25:55 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: shutdown the PC? client is shutdown
2357 2013-04-24 17:26:03 <gmaxwell> client, not the pc.
2358 2013-04-24 17:26:06 <Diapolo> ^^
2359 2013-04-24 17:26:28 <Diapolo> chainstat is 193 MB
2360 2013-04-24 17:26:36 <Diapolo> unzipped
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2362 2013-04-24 17:26:56 <gmaxwell> be glad I didn't ask for the blocks directory?
2363 2013-04-24 17:27:00 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #289: STILL FAILING in 27 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/289/
2364 2013-04-24 17:27:30 <Diapolo> chainstate = 193MB
2365 2013-04-24 17:27:39 <BlueMatt> BlueMattBot: fuck you
2366 2013-04-24 17:27:40 <BlueMattBot> BlueMatt you may not issue bot commands in this chat!
2367 2013-04-24 17:27:57 <Diapolo> BlueMatt: LOL ^^
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2372 2013-04-24 17:28:38 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: I 7zipped it to 123MB still large :-/
2373 2013-04-24 17:28:55 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: did you break that?
2374 2013-04-24 17:28:56 <gmaxwell> /mnt/mingw/qt/src/bin/qmake: not found
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2377 2013-04-24 17:30:02 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: looks like paths in /mnt/mingw/qt have changed, is that due to the openssl-rebuild, and should the build-script.sh be updated to match?
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2384 2013-04-24 17:32:43 <Diapolo> seems that upload is killing my connection ^^
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2415 2013-04-24 17:43:18 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: uhhâ¦. I ran into weirdnesses with things built in /mnt/mingw not running in the chroot environment (and vice-versa)
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2420 2013-04-24 17:43:54 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: strange I know the old stuff was just cp'd
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2429 2013-04-24 17:44:46 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: ⦠that's not the issue, though
2430 2013-04-24 17:44:51 <gavinandresen> I think the path just needs to change
2431 2013-04-24 17:44:54 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: I believe the chroot may have accidentally been made in i386 whereas the host is x86-64, but the mingw stuff is all i586...
2432 2013-04-24 17:45:09 joesmoe has joined
2433 2013-04-24 17:45:12 <gavinandresen> should be /mnt/mingw/qt/bin/qmake
2434 2013-04-24 17:45:20 <BlueMatt> will that work in the chroot too, now?
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2439 2013-04-24 17:46:14 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I'll check real quick...
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2443 2013-04-24 17:46:48 <BlueMatt> thanks
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2447 2013-04-24 17:47:32 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: nope, same problem of binaries compiled outside chroot not working inside chroot
2448 2013-04-24 17:47:44 <BlueMatt> :(
2449 2013-04-24 17:47:48 <BlueMatt> whats the error?
2450 2013-04-24 17:47:53 <gavinandresen> it only worked for jenkins because there was an old qmake in qt/src/bin/ ...
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2454 2013-04-24 17:48:13 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: "No such file or directory" when trying to execute
2455 2013-04-24 17:48:34 <BlueMatt> hmmm...maybe I lied, I thought the old stuff was cp'd
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2459 2013-04-24 17:49:00 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: http://pastebin.com/K4wadvY4
2460 2013-04-24 17:49:24 joesmoe has joined
2461 2013-04-24 17:49:27 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: that pastebin is when chroot'ed
2462 2013-04-24 17:49:35 <BlueMatt> yep, I must've lied...those are native bins, not win32 bins
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2464 2013-04-24 17:49:41 <BlueMatt> so the chroot must've had a different build
2465 2013-04-24 17:49:42 <BlueMatt> damn
2466 2013-04-24 17:50:00 <BlueMatt> if you are really ambitious you could redo the chroot to be x86_64 instead of i386 like it is now
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2468 2013-04-24 17:50:05 <BlueMatt> sorry about that
2469 2013-04-24 17:50:15 <gavinandresen> I don't know nuthin about redoing chroot environments
2470 2013-04-24 17:50:27 <BlueMatt> its really been a while since that was set up (and I think I may have scp'd the chroot from the original jenkins server and such.....)
2471 2013-04-24 17:50:40 <BlueMatt> ok, then probably just rebuild qt inside the chroot and it should work
2472 2013-04-24 17:50:42 <BlueMatt> sorry about that
2473 2013-04-24 17:50:45 <gavinandresen> I'll just make clean and make install the qt stuff inside chroot
2474 2013-04-24 17:50:50 <BlueMatt> yea, sorry
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2480 2013-04-24 17:54:09 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: hmm. Re-running configure I get : /usr/include/gnu/stubs.h:9:27: error: gnu/stubs-64.h
2481 2013-04-24 17:54:30 <BlueMatt> wat?
2482 2013-04-24 17:54:42 <gavinandresen> Maybe because: -I/mnt/mingw/qt-everywhere-opensource-src-4.8.3/mkspecs/linux-g++-64
2483 2013-04-24 17:54:43 SchmalzTech has joined
2484 2013-04-24 17:54:56 <BlueMatt> probably
2485 2013-04-24 17:55:00 <BlueMatt> well, maybe
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2487 2013-04-24 17:55:31 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: ping
2488 2013-04-24 17:55:37 <BlueMatt> shouldn't you be using a mkspec that is like linux-g++-cross or something
2489 2013-04-24 17:55:41 <BlueMatt> or win32-g++-cross
2490 2013-04-24 17:56:06 <gavinandresen> Yes, no '64' in the configure commandâ¦.
2491 2013-04-24 17:56:07 <BlueMatt> or isnt it unsupported/win32-g++-cross
2492 2013-04-24 17:56:16 <BlueMatt> ahh
2493 2013-04-24 17:56:23 <gavinandresen> .. and I started with 'make confclean'
2494 2013-04-24 17:56:43 rushed has joined
2495 2013-04-24 17:56:53 <Diapolo> AFAIK we are using win32-g++-cross for win builds
2496 2013-04-24 17:56:57 <BlueMatt> iirc some sed rules are required to fix the mkspec before qt build, but, again, its been a long time since Ive looked at that stuff
2497 2013-04-24 17:57:12 <gavinandresen> yes, I applied the sed rules, maybe one of those assumed 64-bit
2498 2013-04-24 17:57:31 <BlueMatt> shouldnt, is the gitian vm 32-bit for win32 builds?
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2500 2013-04-24 17:57:52 <gavinandresen> yup
2501 2013-04-24 17:58:00 <BlueMatt> hmm :(
2502 2013-04-24 17:58:33 <gavinandresen> Aha: configure -v tells me: Determining system architecture... (Linux:2.6.32-46-server:x86_64)
2503 2013-04-24 17:58:55 <BlueMatt> hmm, looks like its looking at the host kernel and assuming the chroot is the same
2504 2013-04-24 17:59:04 <BlueMatt> so, yea, may have to rebuild chroot
2505 2013-04-24 17:59:04 <gavinandresen> yup. How do I override?
2506 2013-04-24 17:59:11 <sipa> linux32 <command>
2507 2013-04-24 17:59:14 <BlueMatt> sed/uname/echo .../
2508 2013-04-24 17:59:21 <sipa> runs it in an environment that thinks it's 32-bit
2509 2013-04-24 17:59:31 <gavinandresen> linux32 configure appears to be working
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2511 2013-04-24 17:59:43 <BlueMatt> sipa: oh, hey, now thats convinient
2512 2013-04-24 18:00:00 <gavinandresen> I'll linux32 make install and keep my fingers crossed
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2514 2013-04-24 18:00:24 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: can you change the build_script path ?
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2516 2013-04-24 18:01:17 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: git pull and reset
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2518 2013-04-24 18:01:32 <BlueMatt> ehh, fetch
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2520 2013-04-24 18:03:54 <gavinandresen> fetch / reset inside the chroot environment, outside, or both ?
2521 2013-04-24 18:04:11 <BlueMatt> its cp'd before pull-tester starts
2522 2013-04-24 18:04:17 <BlueMatt> so just in /mnt/test-scripts
2523 2013-04-24 18:04:36 <gavinandresen> ok. Will do as soon as the linux32 make install finishes....
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2525 2013-04-24 18:06:19 <gavinandresen> sipa gmaxwell jgarzik and anybody else interested: I'm thinking we need a band-aid fix in the 0.8.2 release for transaction fees: https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/5453840
2526 2013-04-24 18:08:30 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: ACK
2527 2013-04-24 18:08:38 <jgarzik> (just read it)
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2534 2013-04-24 18:12:30 <gmaxwell> at a min-relay-fee of 0.0001 what does that set the minimum output value to? (what is txout.size() there?)
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2536 2013-04-24 18:13:29 <gavinandresen> P2SH would be⦠uhh⦠23? bytes?
2537 2013-04-24 18:13:36 <sipa> more
2538 2013-04-24 18:13:47 <sipa> 8 bytes amount, 1 byte script length, 23 bytes script
2539 2013-04-24 18:13:52 <gmaxwell> (or perhaps a better question is what it the txout.size() of an empty script?)
2540 2013-04-24 18:13:58 <gmaxwell> 1 I guess?
2541 2013-04-24 18:13:59 <sipa> 9
2542 2013-04-24 18:14:01 <gmaxwell> oh 9
2543 2013-04-24 18:14:02 <gmaxwell> yea.
2544 2013-04-24 18:15:22 <gavinandresen> ⦠so 31 bytes P2SH, 32 bytes pay-to-address, up to a bunch for a n-of-3 raw multisig
2545 2013-04-24 18:15:50 santoscork has joined
2546 2013-04-24 18:16:27 <sipa> so < 3.2 uBTC == dust?
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2548 2013-04-24 18:16:46 <gmaxwell> Perhaps we ought to make value=0 script==OP_RETURN standard at the same time... so people doing stupid data bloating things will at least put them in the form we want?
2549 2013-04-24 18:17:09 <gavinandresen> i want it as simple as possible so we can get it in asap
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2551 2013-04-24 18:17:57 <gavinandresen> sipa: is that what it works out to?
2552 2013-04-24 18:18:06 <gmaxwell> the IsStandard stuff doesn't worry me about getting it in, generally.. the wallet code does a little more.
2553 2013-04-24 18:18:08 <sipa> for pay-to-pubkeyhash, yes
2554 2013-04-24 18:18:32 <gavinandresen> adding a *10 to say "if it would cost more than 10% in fees to spend this, it is dustâ¦" would be OK with me
2555 2013-04-24 18:19:16 <gavinandresen> (I don't really care where the threshold is)
2556 2013-04-24 18:19:32 <gmaxwell> .000003200 is small enough that this should be mostly harmless, though also not terribly effective.
2557 2013-04-24 18:19:33 daybyter has joined
2558 2013-04-24 18:19:58 <gmaxwell> lemme see how many outputs that small were created in the last few blocks
2559 2013-04-24 18:20:13 <mhanne> hi! i have a question about how it is decided which fork of the chain is 'longer'. is it right that it doesn't just count the number of blocks, but sums the difficulty targets these blocks would have filled (but didn't need to, at current difficulty)?
2560 2013-04-24 18:20:41 <sipa> mhanne: it sums the estimated amount of work (=expected number of hashes) done for all blocks in the chain
2561 2013-04-24 18:21:28 <mhanne> sipa: ok.. is this what's tracked in CBlockIndex.bnChainWork ?
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2566 2013-04-24 18:24:29 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: rebuilt qt in the chroot environment, and git fetched/reset /mnt/test-scripts/
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2568 2013-04-24 18:25:03 <sipa> mhanne: indeed
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2570 2013-04-24 18:25:53 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: ok, Ill run a test build on jenkins+pull-tester and make sure its all ok
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2572 2013-04-24 18:28:07 <mhanne> oh, maybe that's what i missed... is nBits in a block header the number of bits it actually has, or the number required to meet current difficulty?
2573 2013-04-24 18:28:41 <sipa> it's a custom floating-point encoded target
2574 2013-04-24 18:29:02 <sipa> bnChainwork is the cumulative of 2^256/target for each block
2575 2013-04-24 18:29:39 <sipa> and the number of bits you have never matters, it's always how much you need
2576 2013-04-24 18:30:28 <mhanne> what i mean is.. i thought the nBits was what is required at current difficulty (meaning it is the same for all blocks a certain height) - and if it only sums up those it wouldn't make much difference compared to just counting the height
2577 2013-04-24 18:30:57 <sipa> you are right
2578 2013-04-24 18:31:03 <sipa> and it almost never matters indeed
2579 2013-04-24 18:31:06 santoscork has left ()
2580 2013-04-24 18:31:17 <sipa> except when a reorganisation is across a retargetting boundary
2581 2013-04-24 18:31:32 <mhanne> ooh, i see :D
2582 2013-04-24 18:32:04 <Guest42720> gavinandresen: you need to add code to make the wallet not create dust change like my previous patch did
2583 2013-04-24 18:32:04 <mhanne> that's a nice corner case i would have never thought about :)
2584 2013-04-24 18:32:24 <sipa> Guest42720: who are you?
2585 2013-04-24 18:32:37 <Guest42720> sipa: petertodd
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2588 2013-04-24 18:32:56 <sipa> yes, indeed
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2590 2013-04-24 18:33:36 <mhanne> sipa: thanks for clearing it up!
2591 2013-04-24 18:35:25 <petertodd__> gavinandresen: oh, never mind, you did mention it
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2607 2013-04-24 18:44:25 <BlueMatt> memory-limited-mempool-used-to-determine-min-fee/prio: how to initialize min fee/prio? call p2p mempool command to fill mempool quickly (probably not possible until/unless we have tx replacement), start with low mempool size limit and slowly increase it until we reach maximum so that we always throw out crap?
2608 2013-04-24 18:44:31 <BlueMatt> other ways to do it?
2609 2013-04-24 18:44:49 * BlueMatt hasnt thought much, but figures smart people here can come up with a solution rather quick ;)
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2616 2013-04-24 18:47:52 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #290: STILL FAILING in 22 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/290/
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2625 2013-04-24 18:54:40 <jspilman> In Payment Protocol - Payment Requests are signed by X.509 cert kept on the payee server, right?
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2627 2013-04-24 18:55:49 <lianj> jspilman: must not be the case. the cert is put into the request
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2632 2013-04-24 18:56:38 <jspilman> yes, public part of the cert is in the request - and private key of the cert is used to sign it the request?
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2635 2013-04-24 18:56:55 <lianj> jspilman: yes
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2637 2013-04-24 18:57:25 <jspilman> thanks, so the trick will be to keep that signing key safe, since it has to be 'hot' on the server, similar problem as a hot wallet?
2638 2013-04-24 18:58:10 <jspilman> but in this case, if attacker gets the key, they can sign payment requests with their own addresses in them?
2639 2013-04-24 18:58:32 <lianj> right, but same goes for any https server
2640 2013-04-24 18:59:17 <jspilman> I was thinking if there was a way to sign something *offline* once, similar to watch only wallets. Write-up here: https://gist.github.com/jspilman/5454201/raw
2641 2013-04-24 18:59:25 shurnormal has joined
2642 2013-04-24 19:01:04 <lianj> i can't think of any way, but good question
2643 2013-04-24 19:01:30 <jspilman> I think I found a way, but it would require an extension to payment request
2644 2013-04-24 19:01:44 PartTimeLegend has joined
2645 2013-04-24 19:01:49 <jspilman> check out that gist if you have a min, would love to get feedback before emailing dev mailing list :-)
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2648 2013-04-24 19:04:15 <jspilman> I think the trouble will be getting a trusted cert authority to generate those certs for you -- I don't know of any off hand that would give you a child cert, or let you generate your own
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2650 2013-04-24 19:05:22 <jspilman> but the idea is your 'most trusted' cert would be used offline only to sign the Kpar, and a child cert or less-trusted cert would be used to sign the other stuff, like 'amount', 'description', 'merchant-data', and the 'I[0:32]'
2651 2013-04-24 19:05:22 i2pRelay has joined
2652 2013-04-24 19:07:18 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: so in the last 10 blocks (well last ten when I ran the query a bit ago) there have only been 123 outputs under 0.000004 created out of 12206 outputs.
2653 2013-04-24 19:09:25 rushed has quit (Quit: rushed)
2654 2013-04-24 19:10:40 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: excellent. Can you run again at 10*0.00â¦4 ?
2655 2013-04-24 19:10:57 <gavinandresen> ⦠or is there a magic threshold where suddenly there are lots of outputs?
2656 2013-04-24 19:11:20 JDuke128 has joined
2657 2013-04-24 19:11:41 <gmaxwell> ECDF coming up.
2658 2013-04-24 19:12:25 ovidiusoft has joined
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2664 2013-04-24 19:15:23 <HM2> ECDF?
2665 2013-04-24 19:16:01 <gmaxwell> https://people.xiph.org/~greg/txouts.png < cumulative density, e.g. Y proportion of outputs are X or less. Log scale, the right side of the graph is 0.01.
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2668 2013-04-24 19:17:02 <gmaxwell> so <0.001 kills about 20% of the outputs. <0.0001 kills about 15%.
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2673 2013-04-24 19:17:57 <gmaxwell> I'll go collect more than 10 blocks..
2674 2013-04-24 19:17:58 <sipa> 80% of outputs are >1 mBTC?
2675 2013-04-24 19:18:06 Grouver has joined
2676 2013-04-24 19:18:07 <sipa> that's not too bad
2677 2013-04-24 19:18:10 <gmaxwell> at least in my little 10 block window.
2678 2013-04-24 19:18:27 <michagogo> How long is a simple, 1 input 2 output transaction in raw form?
2679 2013-04-24 19:19:11 ielo has joined
2680 2013-04-24 19:19:49 <sipa> michagogo: ~150 bytes or so
2681 2013-04-24 19:19:53 <sipa> so twice that in hex
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2685 2013-04-24 19:23:52 <charybdis> hello, is there an updated version of bitointools to work with the new database format? https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcointools
2686 2013-04-24 19:24:02 <charybdis> If this question if off-topic, please let me know
2687 2013-04-24 19:24:19 anarchy5 has joined
2688 2013-04-24 19:24:24 <sipa> not that i know, but what info exactly do you want?
2689 2013-04-24 19:24:41 <charybdis> I want to be able to "watch" addresses to see their recent transactions
2690 2013-04-24 19:24:49 <charybdis> and to be able to get all historical transactions
2691 2013-04-24 19:25:27 <sipa> with -txindex enabled you can use getblock/getrawtransaction to see historic transactions
2692 2013-04-24 19:25:30 <gavinandresen> charybdis: no, I've been too busy to keep bitcointools up to date.
2693 2013-04-24 19:25:34 <sipa> using RPC
2694 2013-04-24 19:25:54 polrpaul has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2695 2013-04-24 19:25:57 <sipa> watching arbitrary addresses isn't possible (but i hope we'll have watch-only wallets somewhere soon, which will allow that)
2696 2013-04-24 19:26:20 <charybdis> gavinandresen: ok, no worries. I'm thankful for all your work!
2697 2013-04-24 19:26:28 gst has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2698 2013-04-24 19:26:33 <charybdis> sipa: yeah, that's what I'd love to have
2699 2013-04-24 19:26:51 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
2700 2013-04-24 19:26:51 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #291: FIXED in 31 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/291/
2701 2013-04-24 19:27:12 gst has joined
2702 2013-04-24 19:27:14 <sipa> \o/
2703 2013-04-24 19:27:22 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/master/test.log
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2706 2013-04-24 19:28:58 <aceat64> I don't understand why people assume that a single 51% attack (if it were to occur) means the death of bitcoin forever, sure it's not _good_ but it's not like the attacker instantly destroys the blockchain or something
2707 2013-04-24 19:29:00 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: bah, why did that happen? Must have run the wrong configure, it needs -lssl -lcrypto -lgdi32 ....
2708 2013-04-24 19:29:29 <gmaxwell> aceat64: Well, not quite, but it would be a concrete disproval of our security assumptions.
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2710 2013-04-24 19:29:53 <Luke-Jr> aceat64: they *could* destroy eveything since the last checkpoint
2711 2013-04-24 19:30:03 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: it has those 3, not sure what else it needs, you can compare to the jenkins output above, maybe
2712 2013-04-24 19:30:14 <michagogo> You'd need a lot more than 51% for that, though
2713 2013-04-24 19:30:27 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: depending on how long they existed.. it takes an awful long time to cut the chain back if you're only at ~50%.
2714 2013-04-24 19:30:43 <gmaxwell> michagogo: no, you can do at at any amount over the majority, given long enough time.
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2716 2013-04-24 19:31:11 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: but if 50% isn't feared, they have the time
2717 2013-04-24 19:31:28 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: -lgdi32 has to come AFTER -lssl ⦠but qmake is adding in the -lssl -lcrypto and wants to control the order
2718 2013-04-24 19:31:42 <BlueMatt> fun
2719 2013-04-24 19:31:46 <gavinandresen> mmm. no.
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2723 2013-04-24 19:33:01 <aceat64> I think if we ever see a 51% attack, it will be short-lived, it'll likely have to be a combination of attacker mining power plus DDoSing most of the pools to help them get the edge
2724 2013-04-24 19:33:31 <Luke-Jr> sipa: FWIW, multiwallet will allow watch-only wallets by coincidence
2725 2013-04-24 19:34:00 <Luke-Jr> sipa: ie, mark it "encrypted" and not provide the keys;
2726 2013-04-24 19:34:03 <BlueMatt> [RFC]: fees based on mempool contents and memory-limited mempool: https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/commits/fees
2727 2013-04-24 19:34:36 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I forgot to set OPENSSL_LIBS='-L/mnt/mingw/openssl-1.0.1c/ -lssl -lcrypto -lgdi32'
2728 2013-04-24 19:34:46 <BlueMatt> in the build-script?
2729 2013-04-24 19:34:49 <aceat64> with the amount of money someone would have to spend to execute a 51%, I just don't see it happening the "legit" way
2730 2013-04-24 19:34:50 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: re-running configure and make install in the chroot environment....
2731 2013-04-24 19:34:54 <BlueMatt> ahh
2732 2013-04-24 19:35:05 <Luke-Jr> aceat64: it has before
2733 2013-04-24 19:35:31 <aceat64> Luke-Jr: on the main chain?
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2735 2013-04-24 19:35:40 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2736 2013-04-24 19:35:46 <Luke-Jr> aceat64: yes, Deepbit had 51% very briefly years ago
2737 2013-04-24 19:35:51 <helo> it would be nice if all miners were able to switch overy to solo mining in an emergency situation
2738 2013-04-24 19:36:05 altgribble has joined
2739 2013-04-24 19:36:12 <Luke-Jr> helo: I've started adding benefits for BFGMiner users who setup a local bitcoind ;)
2740 2013-04-24 19:36:12 <aceat64> Luke-Jr: that's not an attack per se
2741 2013-04-24 19:36:33 <Luke-Jr> aceat64: yes, I mean someone attained 51% the "legit" way
2742 2013-04-24 19:36:53 <aceat64> Luke-Jr: ahh
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2744 2013-04-24 19:37:30 i2pRelay has joined
2745 2013-04-24 19:37:36 <kadoban> aceat64: if someone just wanders into your bank vault, but they're nice and don't take anything..still not a ringing endorsement of your security
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2748 2013-04-24 19:38:34 <aceat64> kadoban: fair enough, though I think GBT should help keep pools from taking full control of the processing power, correct?
2749 2013-04-24 19:38:43 dc8181 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2750 2013-04-24 19:39:20 <kadoban> GBT?
2751 2013-04-24 19:39:31 jonass has joined
2752 2013-04-24 19:39:40 polrpaul has joined
2753 2013-04-24 19:39:45 <aceat64> kadoban: Getblocktemplate
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2758 2013-04-24 19:40:15 <kadoban> aceat64: ah. i'm not super clear on how that works yet honestly, i wouldn't know
2759 2013-04-24 19:40:29 viperhr has joined
2760 2013-04-24 19:40:48 <Luke-Jr> aceat64: should, yes
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2764 2013-04-24 19:41:20 <petertodd__> kadoban: It's pretty simple. Without getblocktemplate a pool gives you a number and tells you "go hash this". You have no idea what you are working on.
2765 2013-04-24 19:41:24 <Luke-Jr> but does need miners to configure multiple pools and ideally a local bitcoind to really take advantage of it
2766 2013-04-24 19:41:27 <aceat64> kadoban: I haven't fully read through it, but the basic gist appears to be that the pool says "these parts of the block are mandatory"
2767 2013-04-24 19:41:38 <petertodd__> kadoban: With getblocktemplate the pool tells you how that number was derived, IE what you are actually hashing.
2768 2013-04-24 19:42:01 <sipa> it doesn't tell younat all what to hash
2769 2013-04-24 19:42:14 <sipa> just what you need to know to build the work to hash yourself
2770 2013-04-24 19:42:40 <petertodd__> sipa: yeah, that's a better way to say it
2771 2013-04-24 19:42:54 <petertodd__> point is, with getblocktemplate you can know what is in the block you are working on
2772 2013-04-24 19:42:57 <petertodd__> emphasis on *can*
2773 2013-04-24 19:43:36 freefox has quit (Quit: freefox)
2774 2013-04-24 19:44:29 <Luke-Jr> petertodd__: actually, it's intentional that with GBT, you *must* know what is in the block :p
2775 2013-04-24 19:44:33 <Luke-Jr> there's no way to avoid that
2776 2013-04-24 19:44:38 <charybdis> is there an architectural overview of how the leveldb stuff works or is the code the best place to learn?
2777 2013-04-24 19:44:59 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2778 2013-04-24 19:45:05 dc8181 has joined
2779 2013-04-24 19:45:07 <kinlo> gbt does allow to just send the hashes of the transactions instead of the full transactions, right?
2780 2013-04-24 19:45:15 <petertodd__> Luke-Jr: getblocktemplate does not mandate the pool giving you every transaction, or did I misread the standard?
2781 2013-04-24 19:45:15 <kinlo> or did I misread
2782 2013-04-24 19:45:32 i2pRelay has joined
2783 2013-04-24 19:45:42 <Luke-Jr> petertodd__: it does, and makes an exception for cases where the client claims it has its own
2784 2013-04-24 19:45:53 <Luke-Jr> petertodd__: GBT does not support sending blind data (merkle links etc)
2785 2013-04-24 19:46:36 <petertodd__> Luke-Jr: right, so GBT doesn't work with large blocksizes then...
2786 2013-04-24 19:46:37 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: it allows miners to send just hashes
2787 2013-04-24 19:46:48 petertodd__ is now known as petertodd
2788 2013-04-24 19:46:54 <Luke-Jr> petertodd__: well, it has 1 MB templates ;)
2789 2013-04-24 19:47:06 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: heh
2790 2013-04-24 19:47:08 <Luke-Jr> which are usually gzip'd
2791 2013-04-24 19:47:24 <Luke-Jr> but yeah, it could be improved..
2792 2013-04-24 19:47:41 <sipa> charybdis: the code is probably the best documentation there is; i can give you some pointers
2793 2013-04-24 19:47:51 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: See, I was thinking getblocktemplate would be *really* appropriate for a "mining opportunities" service that served up blocks that paid the whole coinbase back to you. Not a pool, just really convenient solo mining.
2794 2013-04-24 19:47:58 <Luke-Jr> I was thinking adding a persistent session identifier, and only sending hashes for previously-send transactions
2795 2013-04-24 19:48:12 <charybdis> sipa: ok, I'm digging into it now
2796 2013-04-24 19:48:44 <kinlo> the problem I have with GBT is that you need to send the entire block every time - if it's 600KB, and you want to refresh work every minute, that's at least 10kb/sec
2797 2013-04-24 19:49:09 <kinlo> not even counting the fact that we're sending raw data in encoded format, which explodes the data in size
2798 2013-04-24 19:49:12 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: similar for pools kinda like p2pool where your share of the coinbase is updated directly as you hash, so you can verify on the fly
2799 2013-04-24 19:49:13 torsthaldo has joined
2800 2013-04-24 19:49:58 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: don't forget gzip ;p
2801 2013-04-24 19:49:59 <petertodd> kinlo: yup, I mine over tor myself and don't use gbt for that reason
2802 2013-04-24 19:50:08 <sipa> charybdis: the most important part is probably the explicit representation of the UTXO set; see class CCoins and CCoinsView in main.h/.cpp
2803 2013-04-24 19:50:14 <kinlo> Luke-Jr: gzip will not solve the entire problem
2804 2013-04-24 19:50:20 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: but yeah.. got time to spearhead session-oriented GBT? :p
2805 2013-04-24 19:50:33 <kinlo> Luke-Jr: we have stratum...
2806 2013-04-24 19:50:51 <kinlo> it's not that a malicious pool can include the wrong transactions
2807 2013-04-24 19:50:52 <charybdis> sipa: okay, thanks
2808 2013-04-24 19:51:12 ThomasV has joined
2809 2013-04-24 19:51:18 <bVector> no blocks mined for 30min
2810 2013-04-24 19:51:22 <kinlo> besides excluding certain transactions, there is not much a pool can do that you cannot verify with stratum
2811 2013-04-24 19:51:39 <bVector> devs kick on your supar sekret instablock solvers
2812 2013-04-24 19:52:01 <kinlo> you have the entire coinbase transaction with stratum, and the prev-block etc...
2813 2013-04-24 19:52:03 <petertodd> bVector: 30min blocks happen very frequently
2814 2013-04-24 19:52:27 <bVector> I know, just need to get a transaction confirmed, so kick open the backdoors :P
2815 2013-04-24 19:52:35 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: stratum is just as insecure as getwork
2816 2013-04-24 19:52:53 <petertodd> bVector: don't clutter up the channel
2817 2013-04-24 19:52:57 <kinlo> Luke-Jr: you can't verify the generation transaction with getwork, so I have to disagree
2818 2013-04-24 19:53:02 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: the important part is the transaction data
2819 2013-04-24 19:53:02 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2820 2013-04-24 19:53:12 <Luke-Jr> the generation transaction has no effect on network security
2821 2013-04-24 19:53:18 <sipa> stratum is excellent as a communication protocol from a trusted node to miners
2822 2013-04-24 19:53:25 <kinlo> not really, if the transaction data is invalid, the block won't get validated
2823 2013-04-24 19:53:34 <Luke-Jr> â¦
2824 2013-04-24 19:53:43 bitafterbit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2825 2013-04-24 19:53:58 <kinlo> if the pool excludes a certain transaction, another pool will
2826 2013-04-24 19:54:06 i2pRelay has joined
2827 2013-04-24 19:54:25 <kinlo> even if the pool has 75% and continues to build on the global chain, not performing the 51% attack
2828 2013-04-24 19:54:29 <sipa> unless all pools are manned by miners who don't really care about the blocks mined itself
2829 2013-04-24 19:54:35 <sipa> but sure, there are degrees
2830 2013-04-24 19:54:42 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: excluding transactions is a miner's right, not something to worry about
2831 2013-04-24 19:54:45 <Luke-Jr> the problem is double-spends
2832 2013-04-24 19:55:29 <kinlo> except for 0-confirmation transactions, you can't really do anything wrong if you're properly building on the previous block
2833 2013-04-24 19:55:56 mE\Ta has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2834 2013-04-24 19:56:00 <kinlo> and yes, if a pool decides to doublespend a 0-confirmation transaction, it would be visible immediatly after a block is found
2835 2013-04-24 19:56:03 <charybdis> I don't know who runs the bitcoin wiki, but it seems to be down...
2836 2013-04-24 19:56:05 TD has joined
2837 2013-04-24 19:56:10 <TD> good evening
2838 2013-04-24 19:56:10 dc8181 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2839 2013-04-24 19:56:22 <BlueMatt> hey TD
2840 2013-04-24 19:56:47 <petertodd> kinlo: don't think coming to consensus on which transaction was the double-spend is easy...
2841 2013-04-24 19:56:50 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: qt rebuild done
2842 2013-04-24 19:56:53 <TD> hey BlueMatt
2843 2013-04-24 19:57:18 <kinlo> petertodd: it's not required, you know something fishy happened, and that's the thing you should monitor
2844 2013-04-24 19:57:22 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: thanks, restarting test
2845 2013-04-24 19:57:28 Btceldur has joined
2846 2013-04-24 19:57:40 <kinlo> imho, the whole doublespent issue is not that bad as long as you wait for confirmations
2847 2013-04-24 19:57:41 The_Fly has joined
2848 2013-04-24 19:58:10 <The_Fly> wondering if there's any method for receiving push notifications from bitcoind?
2849 2013-04-24 19:58:28 <petertodd> kinlo: if you start punishing miners for it you open up bitcoin to malicious actors flooding the network with contradictory transactions, broadcasting double-spends can help bring clarity as to what happened, but it's not in the p2p protocol yet
2850 2013-04-24 19:58:34 <TD> The_Fly: there's a pull request to add 0mq support
2851 2013-04-24 19:58:35 <The_Fly> other than polling it
2852 2013-04-24 19:58:44 <BlueMatt> The_Fly: there is a 0mq branch as well as the -blocknotify parameter
2853 2013-04-24 19:58:55 <BlueMatt> or just connect via the p2p protocol
2854 2013-04-24 19:59:00 rowit has joined
2855 2013-04-24 19:59:21 <The_Fly> connect and listen for messages on the address in question?
2856 2013-04-24 19:59:38 <The_Fly> ive not yet looked at connecting via the bitcoin p2p protocol
2857 2013-04-24 19:59:49 normanrichards has joined
2858 2013-04-24 19:59:55 <TD> well it depends what you want to do
2859 2013-04-24 20:00:12 rowit has quit (Client Quit)
2860 2013-04-24 20:00:15 <The_Fly> https://github.com/bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-server/
2861 2013-04-24 20:00:15 <sipa> The_Fly: there is -blocknotify (and in 0.8.2, -walletnotify) which execute a command when a new block is retrieved and when wallet transactions are updated
2862 2013-04-24 20:00:16 <The_Fly> that looks ok
2863 2013-04-24 20:00:23 <kinlo> petertodd: what do you mean with "punish" ? :)
2864 2013-04-24 20:00:24 <The_Fly> sipa: thanks
2865 2013-04-24 20:00:51 <The_Fly> TD: i'd just like to know when a transaction is made to addresses contained in my wallet
2866 2013-04-24 20:01:02 <The_Fly> and i suppose when they receive each confirmation
2867 2013-04-24 20:01:05 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2868 2013-04-24 20:01:17 <The_Fly> anything really to avoid needing to poll bitcoind, which feels like a nasty hack
2869 2013-04-24 20:01:21 <petertodd> kinlo: there have been proposals to do things like make miners not mine on top of blocks that appear to have a double-spend in them. (block discouragement)
2870 2013-04-24 20:01:39 i2pRelay has joined
2871 2013-04-24 20:01:54 <The_Fly> i think BlueMatt's suggestion of p2p sounds ok, but then id be also calling out to bitcoind for balances etc
2872 2013-04-24 20:01:56 <helo> is it a particular implementation that creates the negative R-value signatures?
2873 2013-04-24 20:02:12 <sipa> helo: unknown
2874 2013-04-24 20:02:14 dc8181 has joined
2875 2013-04-24 20:02:15 <BlueMatt> helo: at this point I dont think anyone knows
2876 2013-04-24 20:02:16 <TD> The_Fly: well, it's a bit complicated when you take into account confidence, etc. do you care if the tx never confirms, for instance
2877 2013-04-24 20:02:19 <Luke-Jr> The_Fly: -blocknotify '/path/to/script which scans active transactions'
2878 2013-04-24 20:02:24 pizzacat has joined
2879 2013-04-24 20:02:25 <gmaxwell> petertodd: well discouragement doesn't make sense unless you can be pretty confident most other miners will do it.
2880 2013-04-24 20:02:25 <kinlo> petertodd: that would open up an attack where I broadcast 2 transactions using the same input at 2 locations at the same time. The network will be splitted and miners would not know where to mine?
2881 2013-04-24 20:02:31 <sipa> helo: there have been implementations that did, but that's a long time ago
2882 2013-04-24 20:02:34 <The_Fly> TD: the goal is to build an in-house transaction processor
2883 2013-04-24 20:02:34 <BlueMatt> The_Fly: you may want to just use a library that does it all for you, again, what are you trying to do?
2884 2013-04-24 20:02:41 <BlueMatt> yea, use a library
2885 2013-04-24 20:02:54 <The_Fly> ok, had a scan for some but didn't pull up much
2886 2013-04-24 20:03:08 <petertodd> kinlo: exactly, that's a case where even if you know that every miner applies the same *rules* they won't come to consensus about which block to discourage
2887 2013-04-24 20:03:09 <BlueMatt> there are a million, pick a language
2888 2013-04-24 20:03:15 <kinlo> petertodd: also, having a hash of every transaction would suffice for that purpose, no?
2889 2013-04-24 20:03:34 <The_Fly> the implementation language is not so important, just the API/interface
2890 2013-04-24 20:03:38 <petertodd> kinlo: no, you need the double-spending signatures
2891 2013-04-24 20:03:44 <The_Fly> C++/JS...
2892 2013-04-24 20:04:09 <petertodd> kinlo: which is interesting, because that means in the case of single input transactions, currently you have no choice but to give miners enough information to chose which of the two transactions they'll mine
2893 2013-04-24 20:04:16 <The_Fly> there's also auction elements to what i want to do
2894 2013-04-24 20:04:18 <BlueMatt> The_Fly: bitcoinjs, picocoin, or bitcoinj if you are into java
2895 2013-04-24 20:04:31 <BlueMatt> js, C, java
2896 2013-04-24 20:04:55 <kinlo> well, I'll see what you can get to, doesn't seem to be the biggest issue for me
2897 2013-04-24 20:05:16 <helo> seems like there would be a lot of people complaining if there was a client that somewhat frequently created invalid transactions like that
2898 2013-04-24 20:05:43 <helo> so i'd guess that it is possibly intentional?
2899 2013-04-24 20:05:46 <The_Fly> BlueMatt: thanks, saw bitcoinjs but didn't see how it could perform push notifications
2900 2013-04-24 20:05:49 pera has joined
2901 2013-04-24 20:05:52 nouitfvf_ has joined
2902 2013-04-24 20:06:33 viperhr has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
2903 2013-04-24 20:06:37 <The_Fly> https://github.com/bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-server/wiki/Events
2904 2013-04-24 20:06:39 Miaoyie has joined
2905 2013-04-24 20:06:42 <The_Fly> hm, looks promising
2906 2013-04-24 20:07:01 viperhr has joined
2907 2013-04-24 20:07:16 nouitfvf has quit (Disconnected by services)
2908 2013-04-24 20:07:18 nouitfvf_ has quit (Disconnected by services)
2909 2013-04-24 20:07:21 foolsh has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2910 2013-04-24 20:07:21 Miaoyie is now known as nouitfvf
2911 2013-04-24 20:07:43 mE\Ta has joined
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2913 2013-04-24 20:07:53 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
2914 2013-04-24 20:07:59 <aceat64> ya, it looks like the bitcoin.it wiki is having MySQL issues
2915 2013-04-24 20:08:17 <aceat64> "(Can't contact the database server: Lost connection to MySQL server at 'reading initial communication packet', system error: 111 (mysql))"
2916 2013-04-24 20:08:28 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2917 2013-04-24 20:08:46 <aceat64> probably not the best idea to have error message displayed for a production site
2918 2013-04-24 20:09:05 grau has joined
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2920 2013-04-24 20:09:40 i2pRelay has joined
2921 2013-04-24 20:09:51 d70 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2922 2013-04-24 20:10:28 grapevine has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2923 2013-04-24 20:11:13 grau has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2924 2013-04-24 20:11:17 grau_ has joined
2925 2013-04-24 20:12:07 <kinlo> petertodd: btw, wouldn't it be more wise to create a protocol that let's the server tell the client which transactions it will accept by sending the hashes?
2926 2013-04-24 20:12:27 sud3n has joined
2927 2013-04-24 20:12:38 <kinlo> petertodd: in that way, both client and server must agree, and client can just only accept those it has in it's own memorypool
2928 2013-04-24 20:13:22 richcollins has joined
2929 2013-04-24 20:13:24 <kinlo> both stratum and gbt can't do that presently tough
2930 2013-04-24 20:14:25 <petertodd> kinlo: see I'm unconvinced that pool centralization is that big of a risk provided setting up a new pool is easy. you can muck about with zero-conf, but you can't attempt double-spends against confirmed tx's without losing a lot of money
2931 2013-04-24 20:15:16 <kinlo> I'm not sure that setting up a pool is easy to do ;)
2932 2013-04-24 20:15:26 <TD> sipa: how much bandwidth does your dns seed use?
2933 2013-04-24 20:15:32 mE\Ta has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2934 2013-04-24 20:15:45 <sipa> TD: a lot, when you have many crawler threads
2935 2013-04-24 20:15:52 <petertodd> kinlo: you need tech chops, but actual costs aren't so bad (provided you don't fuckup and get your wallet stolen...)
2936 2013-04-24 20:15:56 <TD> yes. my vps just hit its bandwidth cap and got shut down :)
2937 2013-04-24 20:16:00 <sipa> ow
2938 2013-04-24 20:16:09 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: GBT allows pool to omit transactions when the client has its own set
2939 2013-04-24 20:16:10 <TD> i suppose once the initial crawl is done there's not much point in having many crawl threads
2940 2013-04-24 20:16:15 <kinlo> petertodd: you need a lot of miners to trust you and that's not something that comes very easy
2941 2013-04-24 20:16:22 <TD> do you have any formulas that could estimate usage per thread?
2942 2013-04-24 20:16:26 jevin has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2943 2013-04-24 20:16:37 <petertodd> kinlo: trust != money != expertise
2944 2013-04-24 20:16:57 <petertodd> kinlo: also if you do payouts in coinbase, trust is lessoned
2945 2013-04-24 20:17:01 <sipa> TD: 300 bytes/second per thread
2946 2013-04-24 20:17:09 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2947 2013-04-24 20:17:15 <TD> ok
2948 2013-04-24 20:17:17 <TD> thanks
2949 2013-04-24 20:17:24 <kinlo> petertodd: I don't say it is, but I'm saying it isn't easy
2950 2013-04-24 20:17:40 <TD> any idea how fast you have to crawl to be useful?
2951 2013-04-24 20:17:45 i2pRelay has joined
2952 2013-04-24 20:17:55 <petertodd> kinlo: you're talking to a room full of people who could do it...
2953 2013-04-24 20:18:04 mE\Ta has joined
2954 2013-04-24 20:18:11 <kinlo> petertodd: I'm doing it, I speak out of experience :)
2955 2013-04-24 20:18:19 <petertodd> kinlo: ha, which pool?
2956 2013-04-24 20:18:24 <kinlo> triplemining
2957 2013-04-24 20:18:30 <sipa> TD: it tells you how long a cycle takes
2958 2013-04-24 20:18:44 <TD> yeah, i mean, any idea what cycle time is acceptable?
2959 2013-04-24 20:18:53 <TD> before the results get stale/useless
2960 2013-04-24 20:19:06 <sipa> a day?
2961 2013-04-24 20:19:14 <petertodd> kinlo: cool, so what motivates you to run it?
2962 2013-04-24 20:19:33 <TD> thanks
2963 2013-04-24 20:19:53 <kinlo> play with technology, proove myself I can do it, and mainly: helping the bitcoin community by attempting to do good for the network
2964 2013-04-24 20:23:03 taha has joined
2965 2013-04-24 20:24:08 JDuke128 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2966 2013-04-24 20:25:10 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2967 2013-04-24 20:25:42 <ahf> hm, bitcoin-qt question: the GetAdjustedTime() function exists in case a given nodes clock is off, or is there another reason for it to be there?
2968 2013-04-24 20:25:43 i2pRelay has joined
2969 2013-04-24 20:26:35 <ahf> the protocol rules wiki entry just mentions that a block should be rejected if the timestamp is more than two hours in the future.
2970 2013-04-24 20:29:10 <gmaxwell> ahf: it just makes the times used a bit more consistent, thats all.
2971 2013-04-24 20:29:23 paracyst has joined
2972 2013-04-24 20:29:58 nsillik has joined
2973 2013-04-24 20:30:43 <ahf> yeah, it adds an offset based on the peer's that the given client communicates with, but if one is to do another implementation, wouldn't it be possible to require that the user uses NTP?
2974 2013-04-24 20:32:11 <sipa> i think satoshi intended to build an NTP client into the software at some point
2975 2013-04-24 20:32:21 <gmaxwell> ahf: That wouldn't be especially wise, NTP is a centeralized time source and is surprisingly devoid of sanity checking.
2976 2013-04-24 20:32:35 <gmaxwell> (NTP plus sanity checking would be fine I suppose)
2977 2013-04-24 20:32:59 <ahf> sipa: i see.
2978 2013-04-24 20:33:13 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2979 2013-04-24 20:33:26 <sipa> /// when NTP implemented, change to just nTime = GetAdjustedTime()
2980 2013-04-24 20:33:28 <sipa> in net.cpp
2981 2013-04-24 20:33:36 <ahf> gmaxwell: i am just trying to figure out if i can slack a bit and go for block.timestamp > current time + 2 hours of if i should go for the full monty
2982 2013-04-24 20:33:40 <ahf> ah, thanks sipa. i must have missed that
2983 2013-04-24 20:33:44 i2pRelay has joined
2984 2013-04-24 20:33:48 <ahf> it looked a lot like the logic you would find in an NTP client
2985 2013-04-24 20:33:50 <ahf> thanks a lot guys!
2986 2013-04-24 20:34:17 ngc0202 has joined
2987 2013-04-24 20:35:39 pooler has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0/20130218103006])
2988 2013-04-24 20:38:43 <Luke-Jr> sipa: FWIW, i0coin (IIRC) has NTP builtin (but it leaks memory)
2989 2013-04-24 20:39:01 <gmaxwell> it's also dumb about it... e.g. it doesn't bother to check if NTP thinks its own time is accurate.
2990 2013-04-24 20:39:40 <gmaxwell> sipa: gavinandresen: https://people.xiph.org/~greg/txouts2.png < this is on the last 1008 blocks. pretty similar to the older graph, but some more very small ones.
2991 2013-04-24 20:39:44 Grouver has quit (Quit: Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-)
2992 2013-04-24 20:40:19 <Scrat> Luke-Jr: can GBT work over HTTP? damn bitcoin.it still down and I can't see the google cache
2993 2013-04-24 20:40:26 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: what did you use to generate that?
2994 2013-04-24 20:40:38 <Luke-Jr> Scrat: GBT is only used over HTTP today
2995 2013-04-24 20:40:39 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: i.e. software, and input data format for that software
2996 2013-04-24 20:41:05 <jgarzik> sipa: yeah, he did
2997 2013-04-24 20:41:08 <sipa> "x86 assembly, bits"
2998 2013-04-24 20:41:09 devurandom has joined
2999 2013-04-24 20:41:10 * petertodd wonders if anyoen has been shoving data into the chain in the past week...
3000 2013-04-24 20:41:14 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3001 2013-04-24 20:41:24 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: what is the Y axis?
3002 2013-04-24 20:41:25 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: for b in {232959..231951} ; do H=`./bitcoind getblockhash $b` ; ./bitcoind getblock $H | grep ' "' | cut -d'"' -f2 | xargs -n1 -iblah ./bitcoind getrawtransaction blah 1 | grep ' "value"' | cut -d':' -f2 | cut -d',' -f1 >> values3 ; done and then startup GNU R and type plot(ecdf(scan('values3')),xlim=c(0.00000001,0.01),log="x")
3003 2013-04-24 20:41:27 <devurandom> Hello!
3004 2013-04-24 20:41:30 iddo has quit (Changing host)
3005 2013-04-24 20:41:30 iddo has joined
3006 2013-04-24 20:41:39 GlitchNZ has joined
3007 2013-04-24 20:41:46 i2pRelay has joined
3008 2013-04-24 20:41:51 <sipa> devurandom: oh, you turned unlocked!
3009 2013-04-24 20:41:59 <devurandom> ?
3010 2013-04-24 20:42:15 <sipa> /dev/urandom = unlocked random?
3011 2013-04-24 20:42:28 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: proportion, e.g. the graph says that about 19% are ~1e-5 or smaller.
3012 2013-04-24 20:42:30 <Luke-Jr> sipa: different person
3013 2013-04-24 20:42:33 <sipa> oh
3014 2013-04-24 20:42:40 <sipa> devurandom: mistook you for devrandom, sorry!
3015 2013-04-24 20:42:51 <gmaxwell> devrandom must be blocked.
3016 2013-04-24 20:42:53 <devurandom> Happens sometimes ;)
3017 2013-04-24 20:43:13 <Luke-Jr> curious to have both RNGs involved in bitcoin
3018 2013-04-24 20:43:34 <petertodd> especially since one is based on the other...
3019 2013-04-24 20:43:54 <devurandom> Luke-Jr: One more question about python-blkmaker: Does it already deal with longpolling and new blocks arriving - invalidating the existing work?
3020 2013-04-24 20:44:44 <Luke-Jr> devurandom: it expects the consumer software to manage templates; it will tell you how long until you need a new one, but you need to decide which one to use and such
3021 2013-04-24 20:45:19 <Luke-Jr> to keep dependencies down and portability up, it avoids anything thread/network related
3022 2013-04-24 20:46:28 <Luke-Jr> (well, that was for the C libblkmaker, which python-blkmaker is a port of)
3023 2013-04-24 20:47:25 <devurandom> Luke-Jr: It seems blktemplate.py is somehow broken: File ".../python-blkmaker/blktemplate.py", line 75, in add \\ self.diffbits = _a2b_hex(json['bits'])[::-1] \\TypeError: 'str' does not support the buffer interface
3024 2013-04-24 20:48:43 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: ⦠so 3 uBTC == dust looks pretty safe to me, although I'm tempted to make it more like 10 uBTC == dust
3025 2013-04-24 20:49:10 <gmaxwell> yes, I'd be tempted to make it more like 10.
3026 2013-04-24 20:49:12 <jgarzik> gavinandresen: 10 uBTC please
3027 2013-04-24 20:49:15 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3028 2013-04-24 20:49:25 * jgarzik had already been thinking that, for a few months
3029 2013-04-24 20:49:29 <devurandom> Luke-Jr: Do you have an idea what it means? Is "the buffer interface" that ::-1 part?
3030 2013-04-24 20:49:39 <petertodd> still less than a tenth of a penny, so hopefully that at least is uncontroversial...
3031 2013-04-24 20:49:44 <gmaxwell> I'm also wondering if we shouldn't do the fee ramp thing that litecoin uses?
3032 2013-04-24 20:49:47 i2pRelay has joined
3033 2013-04-24 20:49:59 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: not 0.8.2 material, imo, but worth considering
3034 2013-04-24 20:49:59 <sipa> gmaxwell: which is?
3035 2013-04-24 20:50:00 <petertodd> like a fee for every dust output?
3036 2013-04-24 20:50:18 <gmaxwell> petertodd: If bitcoin gets to $1000 it will be a penny .. and presumably at that point people will be too excited about it being $1000 to complain. :)
3037 2013-04-24 20:50:38 <gmaxwell> sipa: it multiplies the base fee by the number of distinct dust outputs it creates.
3038 2013-04-24 20:50:58 <gavinandresen> a fee for every dust output doesn't make sense if you're not mining dust outputs because those transactions are non-standard
3039 2013-04-24 20:51:01 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: I like 6 uBTC ;)
3040 2013-04-24 20:51:17 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: different dust definition there.
3041 2013-04-24 20:51:29 <petertodd> well, the code doesn't have to be in IsStandard()...
3042 2013-04-24 20:51:46 <Luke-Jr> wait
3043 2013-04-24 20:51:51 <Luke-Jr> I was thinking mBTC >_<
3044 2013-04-24 20:52:03 CaptainBlaze has joined
3045 2013-04-24 20:52:09 <Luke-Jr> 10 uBTC is way smaller than I'd have considered, so whatever O.o
3046 2013-04-24 20:52:39 jevin has joined
3047 2013-04-24 20:52:52 pooler has joined
3048 2013-04-24 20:52:52 pooler has quit (Changing host)
3049 2013-04-24 20:52:52 pooler has joined
3050 2013-04-24 20:52:52 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: well look at the chart, 10 µBTC is enough to cut out a lot of those really small outputs.
3051 2013-04-24 20:52:56 <gavinandresen> 10 uBTC means a spam-blockchain-with-data person must spend 1,000 times what they would spend with wasted 1-satoshi outputs. Which is good.
3052 2013-04-24 20:53:15 <petertodd> gavinandresen: no, work it out in terms of cost per kb of data
3053 2013-04-24 20:53:18 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ⦠until they just increase it to a just-as-uneconomic-but-still-working level
3054 2013-04-24 20:53:35 <Luke-Jr> I'm sure whoever creates them will have some reaction to their filtering
3055 2013-04-24 20:53:44 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: well, as gavin saysâ it's 1000 times more costly for unredeemable junk.
3056 2013-04-24 20:53:59 <gavinandresen> yes, I'm only thinking about the unredeemable junk that people are using to encode data.
3057 2013-04-24 20:54:02 <Luke-Jr> in any case, I don't care particularly strongly on this
3058 2013-04-24 20:54:15 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: perhaps inform ASICMiner you're screwing their spam up :p
3059 2013-04-24 20:54:19 <gmaxwell> yea, it's a low enough value that it's unlikely to impact normal usage any time soon.
3060 2013-04-24 20:54:28 <gavinandresen> what is ASICMiner doing?
3061 2013-04-24 20:54:38 <Luke-Jr> ASICMiner is regularly sending out 1-satoshi-per-share-held transactions
3062 2013-04-24 20:54:58 <petertodd> most efficient data crap is to use OP_CHECKMULTISIG, and that gets you 192 bytes per output, so your 10uBTC limit adds just 0.05mBTC per KB of data, meaningless
3063 2013-04-24 20:55:05 <gavinandresen> they should stop doing that⦠can't stop them, though, they're minign themselves, right?
3064 2013-04-24 20:55:10 <Luke-Jr> clutters my wallet quite a bit, but they seem to have ignored my complaint :/
3065 2013-04-24 20:55:15 <gmaxwell> of course they aren'tâ they pool mine.
3066 2013-04-24 20:55:26 <gmaxwell> on the largest pool because fuck-you-decenteralization.
3067 2013-04-24 20:56:01 <gavinandresen> petertodd: formula is per-kilobyte: it will be something like 3* (txout.nValue*1000)/txout.size()
3068 2013-04-24 20:56:07 grapevine has joined
3069 2013-04-24 20:56:08 <gmaxwell> they were splitting some rate onto ozcoin to, but I presume not now considering ozcoin is kablooie.
3070 2013-04-24 20:56:11 <petertodd> if you ban OP_CHECKMULTISIG that's 1.5mBTC/KB, still cheap, and if you go as far as P2SH only, 5mBTC.
3071 2013-04-24 20:56:19 grapevine is now known as Guest69011
3072 2013-04-24 20:56:24 <devurandom> Luke-Jr: Do you want a fix for that? -->> from binascii import a2b_hex \\ def _a2b_hex(ascii): \\ return a2b_hex(ascii.encode("utf-8"))
3073 2013-04-24 20:57:14 Steve132 has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
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3078 2013-04-24 20:59:30 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: hehe, to be fair, other pools besides BTC Guild keeps going kablooie
3079 2013-04-24 20:59:38 ColinT has joined
3080 2013-04-24 20:59:43 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: BTC Guild is reliable for ASIC miners, even if centralized
3081 2013-04-24 20:59:56 <Luke-Jr> devurandom: Py3.2 incompatibility; pushed a fix
3082 2013-04-24 21:00:02 <devurandom> Luke-Jr: thx!
3083 2013-04-24 21:00:06 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: related: someone commented to be recently that "bitcoin is very monopolistic" (i.e. the community loves the guy with 80% marketshare)
3084 2013-04-24 21:00:30 <jgarzik> (for the record, I just switched from slush back to eligius)
3085 2013-04-24 21:00:52 Steve132 has quit (Client Quit)
3086 2013-04-24 21:01:01 <petertodd> gavinandresen: ah, right, so basically it works out to be you pay 1mBTC/KB minimum in lost outputs for the data dump case
3087 2013-04-24 21:01:12 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: nope http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/master/test.log
3088 2013-04-24 21:01:20 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
3089 2013-04-24 21:01:43 ProfMac_ has joined
3090 2013-04-24 21:01:45 <petertodd> gavinandresen: not terribly exciting, the wikileaks thing paid 25mBTC/KB
3091 2013-04-24 21:01:46 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I have more concerns with the gist. :( What will happen is someone will try to send 1e-8 and it will tell them no. And then they'll go google a bit and set that commandline option to 0 and it will let them, and they'll have a stuck transaction. :(
3092 2013-04-24 21:01:49 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: fwiw, we've had talk about setting up a separate priority server for miners over x hashrate
3093 2013-04-24 21:01:52 Gnaf has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 20.0.1/20130409194949])
3094 2013-04-24 21:02:19 jevin has joined
3095 2013-04-24 21:02:28 <petertodd> gmaxwell: it does work better with the ability to change fees after the fact...
3096 2013-04-24 21:02:57 <gmaxwell> petertodd: oh sure, I'm not saying its fatal, but in terms of something that can be rapidly and safely deployed thats unfortunate.
3097 2013-04-24 21:03:02 jevin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3098 2013-04-24 21:03:02 <gavinandresen> petertodd: wikileaks would have to pay 25mBTC/KB PLUS a bunch more to make the unspendable outputs large enough to get mined
3099 2013-04-24 21:03:34 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
3100 2013-04-24 21:03:46 <petertodd> gavinandresen: no, it'd work out to just an extra 1mBTC/KB, not a big deal
3101 2013-04-24 21:03:47 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: I don't know what to say about users shooting themselves in their feet. See shadowofharbringer's patch for how far people will goâ¦
3102 2013-04-24 21:03:50 polrpaul has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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3106 2013-04-24 21:04:27 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: even his patch doesn't make it possible for people to create feeless dust outputs. But certantly people will do it if it's just a commandline switch.
3107 2013-04-24 21:04:29 PartTimeLegend has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3108 2013-04-24 21:04:50 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: do you have a suggestion for what to do instead?
3109 2013-04-24 21:04:54 atweiden has joined
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3111 2013-04-24 21:05:37 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: we could make the parameter change only the IsStandard rule but not the wallet behavior. I believe this would address that concern.
3112 2013-04-24 21:05:47 ie6 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3113 2013-04-24 21:05:52 i2pRelay has joined
3114 2013-04-24 21:06:24 <saracen> saivann: "I'm not sure if a virgule is appropriate here" - can you clarify what you mean here? I thought "virgule" refered to a punctuation slash, but there doesn't appear to be any in the text?
3115 2013-04-24 21:06:42 <sipa> saracen: it's french for comma, maybe he meant that?
3116 2013-04-24 21:06:59 <gmaxwell> Also, I think perhaps we should make the 'size' part of your formula a constant: my rational is that the difference between largest-standard and smallest are only a factor of maybe 4 or so? It is easier for people to understand what the current rules are if we can just say "no outputs under 0.00001"
3117 2013-04-24 21:07:01 <saivann> saracen : Indeed, comma, sorry!
3118 2013-04-24 21:07:46 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: we can just say that anyway, because the client never creates raw multisig transactions
3119 2013-04-24 21:08:01 <saivann> saracen : Just stick to what you think is best. I was just unsure about this one and I wanted to highlight
3120 2013-04-24 21:08:15 chmod755 has quit (Quit: chmod755)
3121 2013-04-24 21:08:16 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: Excellent point.
3122 2013-04-24 21:08:30 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Yes. If you are going to have complex rules, why not just do a straight up 'is the output economically spendable?' like my patch did.
3123 2013-04-24 21:08:49 <devurandom> Luke-Jr: Ok, so the process is something like this? thread1 { loop: req=tmpl.request(); resp=send_magic(req); tmpl.add(resp) }, thread2{ while(tmpl.work_left() and tmpl.time_left() and not abort): crack_hash() }
3124 2013-04-24 21:09:13 <saracen> saivann: The comma in that one sentence does look a bit weird - it is grammatically correct, but we don't have to have it?
3125 2013-04-24 21:09:24 <gmaxwell> petertodd: I like that patch and I'd be arguing for it instead, but I actually think we need something like that _in addition_ because that patch doesn't have obviously sane behavior for zero fees, IIRC
3126 2013-04-24 21:09:49 <devurandom> Luke-Jr: How do I know that the work I am currently working on became invalid? Does python-blkmaker signal that to me somehow? Or do I have to parse the resp and look for some special flag?
3127 2013-04-24 21:09:52 <gmaxwell> also has some more wallet complexity... we already have wallet code to prevent dust change.
3128 2013-04-24 21:10:00 jonass has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3129 2013-04-24 21:10:00 <petertodd> gmaxwell: That's a good point - it can't have sane behavior for zero fees.
3130 2013-04-24 21:10:07 <Luke-Jr> devurandom: vaguely, but you don't want to flood the server with template requests - only get a new one when the last one expires (plus a LP connection)
3131 2013-04-24 21:10:14 <Luke-Jr> devurandom: and each template needs a new object
3132 2013-04-24 21:10:42 <saivann> saracen : If it's grammatically correct, then that's perfect.
3133 2013-04-24 21:10:44 <Luke-Jr> devurandom: work is invalid when you run out of time or work, or receive a LP response
3134 2013-04-24 21:10:51 <gmaxwell> petertodd: well one option is to always regard it as having a fee of at least the min_fee.
3135 2013-04-24 21:11:14 <petertodd> gmaxwell: yup, which is just another fixed constant...
3136 2013-04-24 21:11:14 <gmaxwell> petertodd: but then I think you need a very small constant in order to get desirable behavior.
3137 2013-04-24 21:11:58 <gmaxwell> e.g. I wouldn't want an absolute cutoff of larger than the 10 µBTC right now.
3138 2013-04-24 21:11:58 <devurandom> Ok, so I do not need a thread to fetch new work, but just one to watch the longpoll?
3139 2013-04-24 21:12:47 <Luke-Jr> devurandom: you need to fetch work before the last one expires too
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3144 2013-04-24 21:15:11 <petertodd> gmaxwell: oh, mind you, actually the patch odes have semi-sane behavior in it's current state, because you can't have a free transaction with a dust output anyway...
3145 2013-04-24 21:15:22 <petertodd> gmaxwell: so yeah, it's a fixed constant
3146 2013-04-24 21:15:25 <gmaxwell> oh, indeed.
3147 2013-04-24 21:16:32 <gmaxwell> So, then it's quite close to gavin's proposal actually.. except that it's value adaptive... and probably needs an argument to adjust the minfee for relay.
3148 2013-04-24 21:16:42 twmz__ has joined
3149 2013-04-24 21:18:02 <petertodd> Yup
3150 2013-04-24 21:18:20 dc8181 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3151 2013-04-24 21:18:22 <petertodd> Gavin puts his test in IsStandard(), so it can't be adaptive, I put my test in ::accept(), so it can be
3152 2013-04-24 21:18:35 <petertodd> (IsStandard() not having access to prior tx's)
3153 2013-04-24 21:18:53 Steve132 has joined
3154 2013-04-24 21:20:06 <gavinandresen> I'm much more comfortable modifying the IsStandard() rules than modifying code elsewhere, semantics of rejecting something for being non-standard are well-tested and clear
3155 2013-04-24 21:20:50 <jgarzik> +1
3156 2013-04-24 21:20:51 <petertodd> meanwhile when I stop chatting on IRC I'll get back to ripping out the entire mempool code and replacing it in four days... I think I know which patch I would ACK into mainline :P
3157 2013-04-24 21:21:00 jgarzik has quit (Quit: more planes)
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3160 2013-04-24 21:22:31 <TD> banning tiny outputs is rather likely to have unexpected side effects, isn't it. for example micropayment channels won't be able to finalise accurately if they didn't transfer enough value yet.
3161 2013-04-24 21:22:54 <nsh> gavinandresen, what's this 10 uBTC "dust"?
3162 2013-04-24 21:23:01 <petertodd> Then they can write off that tiny bit of non-transfered value as 'who cares?'
3163 2013-04-24 21:23:09 <TD> also i guess it will kill off the coloured coins stuff
3164 2013-04-24 21:23:18 <devurandom> Luke-Jr: Something like this? lpid=None; queue=new(); thread1 { loop: tmpl=new(); req=tmpl.request(); resp=http_magic(req); lpid=resp.longpollid; tmpl.add(resp); queue.append(tmpl); wait_for(queue.length < 2); repeat! } thread2 { loop: tmpl=new(); req=tmpl.request(lpid=lpid); resp=http_magic(req); tmpl.add(resp); queue.clear(); queue.append(tmpl); restart=True; repeat! } thread3 { loop: while(work/time_left and not restart): work_on(tmpl);
3165 2013-04-24 21:23:18 <devurandom> repeat! tmpl=queue.first(); restart=False; repeat! }
3166 2013-04-24 21:23:30 <petertodd> No it won't. Sane colored coin stuff computes the *ratio* of colored to uncolored at everystep.
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3173 2013-04-24 21:25:21 <nsh> or, amount below which send is considered silly
3174 2013-04-24 21:25:23 <nsh> *oh
3175 2013-04-24 21:26:59 <saracen> saivann: Pushed changes. bbl though
3176 2013-04-24 21:27:21 <nsh> gmaxwell, what's the select coins problem?
3177 2013-04-24 21:27:57 <sipa> the problem of selecting which coins to use to construct a transaction
3178 2013-04-24 21:29:29 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3179 2013-04-24 21:29:36 <nsh> oh ok
3180 2013-04-24 21:29:36 <nsh> ty
3181 2013-04-24 21:29:46 <tumak> TD: yeah i think its pretty arbitrary
3182 2013-04-24 21:29:59 Diapolis has joined
3183 2013-04-24 21:30:01 i2pRelay has joined
3184 2013-04-24 21:30:03 <tumak> imo bitcoin should remedy SD in a constructive way rather than "banning"
3185 2013-04-24 21:30:17 <tumak> why not select UTXO dust preferrentialy when selecting coins for payment?
3186 2013-04-24 21:30:18 Gnaf has joined
3187 2013-04-24 21:30:40 <TD> because then you end up with enormous transactions
3188 2013-04-24 21:30:42 <TD> the issues here are real
3189 2013-04-24 21:30:45 viperhr has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
3190 2013-04-24 21:30:49 <TD> it's just a case of exploring all the consequences of any chosen action
3191 2013-04-24 21:30:57 <tumak> TD: but that is the only way to consolidate utxo dost
3192 2013-04-24 21:30:59 <Luke-Jr> tumak: banning is the only viable solution
3193 2013-04-24 21:31:06 <tumak> otherwise dust sits in utxo space forever
3194 2013-04-24 21:31:07 viperhr has joined
3195 2013-04-24 21:31:10 <tumak> how is that solving anything?
3196 2013-04-24 21:31:21 <TD> changing the rules for creating it, does not prevent you spending it
3197 2013-04-24 21:31:36 <TD> in practice people don't spend it today, but regardless, rules that apply to outputs don't have to apply to inputs
3198 2013-04-24 21:31:37 <tumak> yep
3199 2013-04-24 21:31:46 <tumak> except there is already enormous amount of such dust
3200 2013-04-24 21:31:52 <saivann> saracen : except the little "orphan single quote" typo I've found, everything looks good to me
3201 2013-04-24 21:31:55 <tumak> so you cant prune blocks littered with it
3202 2013-04-24 21:31:58 <petertodd> tumak: even worse we have no idea if rule changes will be successful
3203 2013-04-24 21:32:14 <sipa> tumak: it only makes sense to have wallets prefer dust as input, when the prioritizations rules do not provide an economic incentive to do so
3204 2013-04-24 21:32:17 <TD> the way ultraprune works, old blocks can always be deleted
3205 2013-04-24 21:32:22 <TD> even if they contain unspent outputs
3206 2013-04-24 21:32:26 <tumak> sipa: indeed
3207 2013-04-24 21:32:31 <sipa> tumak: it would means wallets that work against their owner's best interest
3208 2013-04-24 21:32:33 <jgm> Sounds like there should be some sort of housekeeping process in a wallet to gather the dust up now and again
3209 2013-04-24 21:32:40 <TD> well, i've suggested that
3210 2013-04-24 21:32:43 <TD> auto defragmenting wallets
3211 2013-04-24 21:32:47 <tumak> sipa: what about penalize *creation* of dust in tx fees
3212 2013-04-24 21:32:53 <sipa> tumak: same thing
3213 2013-04-24 21:32:56 o3u has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3214 2013-04-24 21:33:05 Diablo-D3 has joined
3215 2013-04-24 21:33:09 <TD> i guess you can do it today, in theory, problem is your defrag transactions would probably also be seen as creating dust â¦.
3216 2013-04-24 21:33:13 <tumak> sipa: wont kill smart coins though
3217 2013-04-24 21:33:14 <TD> just less dusty dust
3218 2013-04-24 21:33:17 <sipa> tumak: imho, transactions should get a priority modifier based on the net effect they have on the UTXO set
3219 2013-04-24 21:33:23 <tumak> sipa: because dust is created only once
3220 2013-04-24 21:33:25 <tumak> (expensive)
3221 2013-04-24 21:33:36 <tumak> sipa: exactly
3222 2013-04-24 21:33:43 <petertodd> tumak: anyway, more fundemental is that there are uses for bloating the UTXO set like timestamping and data storage, although at least we have a good solution to the latter
3223 2013-04-24 21:34:16 <tumak> ultimately utxo space is the resource hog
3224 2013-04-24 21:34:18 <nsh> wiki server is still unable to contact db server
3225 2013-04-24 21:34:19 <tumak> not block size
3226 2013-04-24 21:34:41 <TD> they're both hogs of a kind
3227 2013-04-24 21:34:56 <TD> just in different ways
3228 2013-04-24 21:34:59 <jgm> Okay just send all the dust to a bitcoin foundation address, which can hoover it up and redistribute it to worth causes or something. Like Superman but without spending it on a fast car
3229 2013-04-24 21:35:03 <TD> haha
3230 2013-04-24 21:35:11 <TD> that's not quite in the spirit of bitcoin ....
3231 2013-04-24 21:35:12 <tumak> jgm: lol
3232 2013-04-24 21:35:21 <tumak> is bitcoin turning into freicoin? :)
3233 2013-04-24 21:35:36 <petertodd> tumak: one of many, although don't discount overall blockchain growth too
3234 2013-04-24 21:35:39 <sipa> we can't let the foundation do this
3235 2013-04-24 21:35:55 <sipa> let's start an International Merging Fund for doing this
3236 2013-04-24 21:36:02 <petertodd> tumak: sure you can prune, but without being able to download the whole thing you can't yet trust the end result
3237 2013-04-24 21:36:17 willphase has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3238 2013-04-24 21:36:18 <sipa> bandwidth and bulk storage are cheap
3239 2013-04-24 21:36:24 <TD> sipa: lol
3240 2013-04-24 21:36:28 <tumak> petertodd: depends how the dust is distributed in tx merkle of individual blocks
3241 2013-04-24 21:36:33 rowit has joined
3242 2013-04-24 21:36:37 <TD> sipa: we should find some elite economists to decide what to do with it all
3243 2013-04-24 21:36:38 <tumak> petertodd: and casual observation indicates its pretty bad :(
3244 2013-04-24 21:36:49 orblivion has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3245 2013-04-24 21:36:50 santoscork has joined
3246 2013-04-24 21:37:14 <TD> how about miners recognise they have an incentive to maintain a compact utxo set and the block rules set aside some dedicated space for dust consolidation
3247 2013-04-24 21:37:32 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3248 2013-04-24 21:37:34 <TD> and wallets can generate trees of smallish transactions that slowly consolidate things over a period of weeks
3249 2013-04-24 21:37:35 <sipa> TD: dan kaminisky is right... bitcoin makes computer scientists think they know something about economics?
3250 2013-04-24 21:37:40 <nsh> just add gravity
3251 2013-04-24 21:37:42 <petertodd> sipa: lol
3252 2013-04-24 21:37:44 <jgm> If you disallow transactions with dust in you're stuck with the current situation for ever, and although my comp science is a bit rusty if you have early blocks which you can never git rid of that doesn't bode well for future blocks
3253 2013-04-24 21:37:51 BlackPrapor has quit (2!~kvirc@94.41.236.185.dynamic.ufanet.ru|Remote host closed the connection)
3254 2013-04-24 21:37:55 <nsh> then your dust eventually becomes meatbags
3255 2013-04-24 21:37:59 twmz_ has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
3256 2013-04-24 21:38:01 <nsh> and they make a better bitcoin
3257 2013-04-24 21:38:04 i2pRelay has joined
3258 2013-04-24 21:38:06 <TD> jgm: ultraprune divorces blocks from outputs somewhat. you can delete the old blocks and still keep the outputs in the utxo set
3259 2013-04-24 21:38:15 <petertodd> speaking of dust, this post was scary: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=186264.0
3260 2013-04-24 21:38:19 <tumak> sipa: dant kaminsky is so wrong even when it comes to infosec so i'd not take his word on it
3261 2013-04-24 21:38:38 <tumak> (wrt dnssec ddos amp mishap of which result all big exchanges felt recently)
3262 2013-04-24 21:38:49 <nsh> tumak,
3263 2013-04-24 21:38:56 <nsh> (what did he say wrongly about it?)
3264 2013-04-24 21:39:05 Michail1 has quit (Read error: No route to host)
3265 2013-04-24 21:39:10 <sipa> tumak: he said nice things about bitcoin and its developers! he must be right!
3266 2013-04-24 21:39:18 <sipa> i don't want to hear the rest!
3267 2013-04-24 21:40:10 <tumak> :))))
3268 2013-04-24 21:40:12 <jgm> If you aren't going to allow dust transactions then sound like ultraprune could just drop them. They'd still be in the full blockchain for when a satoshi is worth something
3269 2013-04-24 21:40:24 NZGlitch has joined
3270 2013-04-24 21:40:26 <petertodd> jgm: that's a hard fork change
3271 2013-04-24 21:40:37 wallet42 has joined
3272 2013-04-24 21:40:51 <sipa> petertodd: nope, soft fork... but very controversial in any case
3273 2013-04-24 21:41:14 GlitchNZ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3274 2013-04-24 21:41:26 <sipa> ah, removing the rule later would be a hard fork, if that's what you meant
3275 2013-04-24 21:41:27 <wallet42> hey folks i got a porobability issue, maybe someone can help me :)
3276 2013-04-24 21:41:52 <nsh> porobably ;)
3277 2013-04-24 21:41:55 <wallet42> i trow 2 dice and take the sum
3278 2013-04-24 21:41:59 <petertodd> sipa: oh, yes, you are right, soft fork
3279 2013-04-24 21:42:08 <wallet42> i do this 10 (or X) times
3280 2013-04-24 21:42:09 <petertodd> sipa: and yes, horribly controversial
3281 2013-04-24 21:42:10 freefox has joined
3282 2013-04-24 21:42:18 <nsh> (wallet42, try just one line)
3283 2013-04-24 21:42:25 <wallet42> kk
3284 2013-04-24 21:42:48 <tumak> so whats the stopper in implementing sizeof(utxo set) * magic + sizeof(txsize) * magic scoring?
3285 2013-04-24 21:42:57 <jgm> Agree it's not a good idea, but it feels that banning dust in transactions is a bad idea as well. Just thinking about what it looks like if it goes ahead and what it means (still working through a lot of this stuff, only been hanging out a few days)
3286 2013-04-24 21:43:24 freefox has quit (Client Quit)
3287 2013-04-24 21:43:24 santoscork has quit (Quit: Auto logout â¦)
3288 2013-04-24 21:43:25 <TD> one issue is that currently, it isn't causing any actual issues for miners
3289 2013-04-24 21:43:35 <TD> this is one of those theoretical "may crop up in future so should solve now" issues
3290 2013-04-24 21:43:36 <nsh> that's the worst kind of issue...
3291 2013-04-24 21:43:43 <TD> the entire utxo set would fit into the RAM on my samsung phone
3292 2013-04-24 21:43:46 <TD> even with the dust
3293 2013-04-24 21:43:47 <wallet42> median(sum(2 dice)) = 7 (in the long run). how likly am i to get that correct result after 10 thows, 20 thows, ...
3294 2013-04-24 21:43:52 <TD> so miners aren't complaining and demanding solutions
3295 2013-04-24 21:44:07 <tumak> TD: or
3296 2013-04-24 21:44:11 <tumak> TD: it would lead to significant profits
3297 2013-04-24 21:44:13 <tumak> from SD :)
3298 2013-04-24 21:44:31 <petertodd> 180MB, on the other hand, it's interesting how 1.3% of that is now wikileaks...
3299 2013-04-24 21:44:32 <tumak> so i'd set the magic constants
3300 2013-04-24 21:44:38 <tumak> so block reward is 50btc again on average
3301 2013-04-24 21:44:39 <tumak> :)
3302 2013-04-24 21:44:53 <tumak> TD: you'd see them using that client in a jiffy
3303 2013-04-24 21:45:20 <nsh> wallet42, see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZsEYKN0ht8
3304 2013-04-24 21:45:22 <TD> lol. wikileaks. is there any evil that cannot be ascribed to them :)
3305 2013-04-24 21:45:34 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3306 2013-04-24 21:45:36 <wallet42> nsh, thx :D
3307 2013-04-24 21:45:42 <nsh> np
3308 2013-04-24 21:45:50 <jgm> petertodd: if it makes you feel any better I can go create loads of dust transactions to get that percentage down
3309 2013-04-24 21:45:52 <saracen> saivann: That's not an orphan single quote. "users' wallets". The single quote is because it's a possessive plural. There are many users, and the wallets belong to them.
3310 2013-04-24 21:46:06 i2pRelay has joined
3311 2013-04-24 21:46:12 Michail1 has joined
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3313 2013-04-24 21:46:31 <petertodd> jgm: gee, thanks... nah, sounds like jdillion is going to add another pile of crap by timestamping the PGP strong set...
3314 2013-04-24 21:46:44 <TD> somebody needs to tell him about merkle roots
3315 2013-04-24 21:46:47 <TD> s/roots/trees/
3316 2013-04-24 21:47:39 <petertodd> TD: That's it, I'm convinced he knows exactly that and is doing it to demonstrate how demand for blockspace is unlimited... exactly the point I was making before, but he's happy to attack bitcoin to do it.
3317 2013-04-24 21:47:49 <petertodd> TD: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=186264.msg1932477#msg1932477
3318 2013-04-24 21:47:49 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3319 2013-04-24 21:48:03 <TD> what a nice chap
3320 2013-04-24 21:48:04 dc8181 has joined
3321 2013-04-24 21:48:22 <TD> alright, i amend my previous statement. someone needs to introduce him to the concept of a self-fulfilling prophecy
3322 2013-04-24 21:49:29 <petertodd> It's interesting how all the donations I've had seem to be from investors who are extremely pissed off that Bitcoin may become centralized in the future, and jdillon is just an example of someone willing to take extreme measures to prove the point.
3323 2013-04-24 21:49:41 <petertodd> I mean, funding replace-by-fee was one thing, but now this...
3324 2013-04-24 21:51:33 <gavinandresen> TD: the people who are complaining about dust are clueless users who eventually try to spend from their 100MB dust-filled wallets
3325 2013-04-24 21:52:36 <TD> yes, fair point. those people are definitely complaining. however banning dust won't fix their problem. i guess somebody could write a little script that makes free consolidation transactions and waits for them to get into the free space in blocks
3326 2013-04-24 21:52:50 <TD> if it takes them 3 weeks to get a usable wallet, well, that's a lesson learned
3327 2013-04-24 21:52:56 <gavinandresen> TD: ⦠that is the problem I really care about solving. Making dust non-standard will (eventually) prevent that situation for new users.
3328 2013-04-24 21:53:10 <TD> yeah
3329 2013-04-24 21:53:30 m00p has joined
3330 2013-04-24 21:53:30 <gavinandresen> Assuming we keep growing, we'll have many, many more new users than we'll have old users with dusty wallets.
3331 2013-04-24 21:53:35 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3332 2013-04-24 21:54:07 i2pRelay has joined
3333 2013-04-24 21:54:14 neo2 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3334 2013-04-24 21:54:20 <gavinandresen> And call me terrible names, but I can't get terribly excited about doing lots of work to make it easy for a user with a wallet worth $1 full of dusty outputs to get that dollar out
3335 2013-04-24 21:54:26 <petertodd> There is also something to be said for new users being dissippointed that hours wasted on bithits didn't translate into useful bitcoins.
3336 2013-04-24 21:54:27 <TD> does a miner that is pruning have any incentive to *not* include gigantic dust consolidating transactions? they'll eventually delete the block that contains it, and it reduces their working set.
3337 2013-04-24 21:54:51 <petertodd> TD: yes, their individual reward is tiny compared to the very real marginal cost of including a tx
3338 2013-04-24 21:55:19 <TD> i suppose that depends on the cost of RAM/disk over time
3339 2013-04-24 21:55:28 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: to hell with the user, I want the utxo set cleaned up.
3340 2013-04-24 21:55:39 <petertodd> TD: I suggest you create an assurance contract for this...
3341 2013-04-24 21:55:40 <jgm> Surely it's a question of if they include the dust consolidation transaction Vs. n other fee-paying transactions. Plus of course they can always assume that the next miners will do it
3342 2013-04-24 21:55:42 <gmaxwell> (sorry if thats a dumb comment, I haven't been following closely)
3343 2013-04-24 21:55:57 <TD> the reward is not only the fee but the RAM-day savings
3344 2013-04-24 21:56:27 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: cleaning up the utxo set is an orthogonal problem, lets not try to boil the ocean
3345 2013-04-24 21:56:28 <jgm> RAM is so embarrasingly cheap nowadays, is that really a major cost compared to power?
3346 2013-04-24 21:56:41 <petertodd> TD: As I say, it's a candidate for an assurance contract.
3347 2013-04-24 21:56:48 <TD> power for what? verifying the sigs?
3348 2013-04-24 21:57:01 <jgm> Just mining
3349 2013-04-24 21:57:06 <TD> gavinandresen has a gist where he tries to estimate the base cost of a transaction and it was on the order of <1 microdollar per input
3350 2013-04-24 21:57:12 <sipa> they're paid for mining
3351 2013-04-24 21:57:16 <TD> mining cost is unrelated to block size.
3352 2013-04-24 21:57:18 <sipa> they're not paid for verifying
3353 2013-04-24 21:57:28 <TD> ok ok. abstracting a lot of important details
3354 2013-04-24 21:57:37 <TD> adding a tx to a block doesn't mean you have to increase the amount of hashing you do
3355 2013-04-24 21:58:12 <TD> petertodd: yes could be. although given that each miner has the option to include, and all miners benefit, all miners should try to include all the time, i'd guess.
3356 2013-04-24 21:58:52 <TD> ACs are useful when the benefit paid by a few can't be denied to all. but for a miner, the cost savings accrue to everyone simultaneously.
3357 2013-04-24 21:59:01 <TD> hm, well, need to think about it more
3358 2013-04-24 21:59:26 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3359 2013-04-24 21:59:30 michagogo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3360 2013-04-24 21:59:42 <petertodd> TD: adding a tx costs you because of orphans. Heck, I'm chatting with a pool op right now who even at <0.5MB blocks finds it worthwhile to decrease the blocksize to push the orphan rate down.
3361 2013-04-24 21:59:54 wrabbit has joined
3362 2013-04-24 22:00:26 <The_Fly> gah, bitcoinjs-server depends on some out of date packages
3363 2013-04-24 22:00:30 <TD> yeah, it does today
3364 2013-04-24 22:00:31 <The_Fly> or needs a switch to old node
3365 2013-04-24 22:00:49 <The_Fly> the leveldb dependancy
3366 2013-04-24 22:00:55 <helo> so we may need fees to adapt to full blocks sooner than we realize
3367 2013-04-24 22:01:11 <TD> profiling and optimising block relay is probably one of the next scaling milestones
3368 2013-04-24 22:01:35 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3369 2013-04-24 22:01:48 <TD> though everyone migrating onto 0.8 should help with that a lot
3370 2013-04-24 22:01:48 <sipa> doing block and blockindex changes asynchronous should help there
3371 2013-04-24 22:01:55 Irencus has quit ()
3372 2013-04-24 22:01:58 <TD> leveldb is so much faster than bdb i can't imagine why a miner wouldn't be on it by now
3373 2013-04-24 22:02:00 <sipa> so we can relay before writing to disk
3374 2013-04-24 22:02:08 i2pRelay has joined
3375 2013-04-24 22:03:03 <TD> sipa: i think it's worth gathering some data before optimising. like, what is the real cause of slowdown. with leveldb it's just a single log append, right? that should be all of one or two disk seeks, 20msec tops, hard to imagine that dominates relay time
3376 2013-04-24 22:03:20 <TD> more likely IMO some pools are still on 0.7
3377 2013-04-24 22:04:05 <sipa> unsure
3378 2013-04-24 22:04:19 <sipa> well, some certainly are
3379 2013-04-24 22:04:37 <Diablo-D3> http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/04/24/paypal-president-is-fascinated-by-bitcoin-says-company-is-thinking-about-including-the-virtual-currency/?utm_source=feedly
3380 2013-04-24 22:04:39 <Diablo-D3> THE FUCK
3381 2013-04-24 22:04:48 <Diablo-D3> YOU'RE LATE FOR APRIL FOOLS DAY, ASSHOLES
3382 2013-04-24 22:04:54 joesmoe has joined
3383 2013-04-24 22:05:08 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: nothing surprising, it's just another currency
3384 2013-04-24 22:05:20 <TD> sipa: perhaps after the may hard-fork it'd be worth asking pool ops to provide their node IPs and then observing their propagation times
3385 2013-04-24 22:05:33 <TD> sipa: there might be a few simple fixes, like better interpool peering. who knows.
3386 2013-04-24 22:05:37 <petertodd> TD: what, so they can be DDoS'd?
3387 2013-04-24 22:05:45 <TD> petertodd: i didn't mean provide publicly
3388 2013-04-24 22:05:48 <sipa> TD: that's their problem, imho :)
3389 2013-04-24 22:05:49 <TD> i meant, provide to sipa :)
3390 2013-04-24 22:06:01 * petertodd thinks sipa is a shady figure
3391 2013-04-24 22:06:11 <sipa> rightfully so
3392 2013-04-24 22:06:13 joesmoe has quit (Client Quit)
3393 2013-04-24 22:06:18 <gmaxwell> Satans Internet Personal Army!
3394 2013-04-24 22:06:24 <TD> that's true. we don't want to centralise the network in his hands.
3395 2013-04-24 22:06:29 <TD> i met the guy. wouldn't trust him an inch
3396 2013-04-24 22:06:45 <TD> his name sounds like a pseudonym too
3397 2013-04-24 22:06:51 rdymac has joined
3398 2013-04-24 22:07:01 <petertodd> Yeah, I'm adding transactions to my blockchaintwit as we speak to ensure sipa can't control the flow of spice.
3399 2013-04-24 22:07:02 <sipa> i wonder who that 'tidy' guy is...
3400 2013-04-24 22:07:04 <petertodd> er, I mean info...
3401 2013-04-24 22:07:08 darenthi_ is now known as darenthis
3402 2013-04-24 22:07:34 <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: umm...that quote is on video
3403 2013-04-24 22:07:47 <TD> sipa: total dimwit, probably :)
3404 2013-04-24 22:07:52 <sipa> a bit more serious: what i mean is that i'm much more interested in improving the propagation times of the network as a whole, than specificaly for miners
3405 2013-04-24 22:07:53 <gmaxwell> In any case? relay times for pools. I don't give a @#$#@$@. And with an income of $5000/day there are pools that can affort to get their own problems figured out, so I assume they don't care much either.
3406 2013-04-24 22:08:15 <sipa> miners have money, and if their relay times are a problem, they can rent fibers directly between them or s
3407 2013-04-24 22:08:29 <TD> i care if they just can't be arsed figuring it out and make tiny blocks in order to just claim the inflation
3408 2013-04-24 22:08:37 <lianj> sipa: this is where it starts
3409 2013-04-24 22:08:37 <petertodd> If they actually cared they'd just fire up some EC2 nodes and get together there.
3410 2013-04-24 22:08:39 Hawkwood has joined
3411 2013-04-24 22:09:06 <TD> because then i'll have to wait longer for my transactions to confirm. anyway, it can be investigated if we see widespread block throttling <1mb later
3412 2013-04-24 22:09:08 <petertodd> TD: Well, actually yes, that's exactly it. Cost per transaction is just udner $10 right now.
3413 2013-04-24 22:09:17 <sipa> or if it's actually software problems that would improve their latencies, they can fund development to fix it
3414 2013-04-24 22:09:25 * TD -> sleep
3415 2013-04-24 22:09:36 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3416 2013-04-24 22:09:48 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
3417 2013-04-24 22:10:02 <petertodd> FWIW I was talking to one pool op, and it was easy enough to convince him that he should put "1MB" in his coinbase...
3418 2013-04-24 22:10:08 i2pRelay has joined
3419 2013-04-24 22:10:35 <petertodd> It's also telling that he told me he's going to carefully test the change first, because losing a single block is just too expensive.
3420 2013-04-24 22:11:27 agricocb has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3421 2013-04-24 22:12:06 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3422 2013-04-24 22:12:12 <Diablo-D3> [05:45:03] <BlueMatt> Diablo-D3: umm...that quote is on video
3423 2013-04-24 22:12:17 <Diablo-D3> I dont care if I saw it live in person
3424 2013-04-24 22:12:31 <Diablo-D3> someone needs to buy that man a calendar
3425 2013-04-24 22:12:32 <BlueMatt> the video is much more underwhelming than the quote
3426 2013-04-24 22:12:44 * nsh still isn't sure after reading jdillon's PGP embedding proposal if he's being serious or not
3427 2013-04-24 22:12:49 <BlueMatt> hes clearly not really thinking about it, but he does find it interesting
3428 2013-04-24 22:12:57 rdymac has joined
3429 2013-04-24 22:13:06 <Diablo-D3> BlueMatt: then he will soon either be fired or end up dead
3430 2013-04-24 22:13:13 <BlueMatt> heh, yea...ok
3431 2013-04-24 22:13:17 <Diablo-D3> paypal is a pawn of the banking cartel
3432 2013-04-24 22:13:31 <petertodd> nsh: I'm convinced he both is and isn't. He understands it's a very useful thing, and also understands it's extremely harmful to the network, and further understands that 1MB blocks limit the harm of stupid things like that.
3433 2013-04-24 22:13:36 <Diablo-D3> to say anything other than "bitcoin is for drugs and pedophiles" is acting against the banking cartel
3434 2013-04-24 22:13:44 <Diablo-D3> this is how those people work, they lie, cheat, steal, and murder.
3435 2013-04-24 22:13:50 <nsh> petertodd, hmm
3436 2013-04-24 22:13:53 <Diablo-D3> they are a very dangerous group of terrorists.
3437 2013-04-24 22:14:01 <petertodd> nsh: I mean, it's why I put the link to a timestamp of my fingerprint in my sig... I just didn't go of saying I'd timestamp 50,000 fucking keys.
3438 2013-04-24 22:14:20 * nsh nods
3439 2013-04-24 22:14:36 dc8181 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3440 2013-04-24 22:14:47 <helo> Diablo-D3: paypal appears to be acting against the cartel. what of that?
3441 2013-04-24 22:14:59 <Diablo-D3> helo: then paypal may not exist much longer
3442 2013-04-24 22:15:11 one_zero has joined
3443 2013-04-24 22:15:27 <petertodd> nsh: You gotta understand he's part of the "pissed off investors" I seem to attracts that do not want to see Bitcoin become centralized due to large blocks...
3444 2013-04-24 22:15:42 <petertodd> nsh: (based on my discussions with him over email)
3445 2013-04-24 22:15:43 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3446 2013-04-24 22:15:49 <nsh> right, well i can understand that point of view
3447 2013-04-24 22:16:06 Steve132 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3448 2013-04-24 22:16:13 <petertodd> Yeah, why risk the anonymity of your savings so people can make penny bets on the blockchain?
3449 2013-04-24 22:16:22 PRab has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3450 2013-04-24 22:16:47 <petertodd> The person I know in real life with the most Bitcoin holdings hasn't even ever done a single transaction. He got someone he trusts to buy the coins for him and hodl them on his behalf!
3451 2013-04-24 22:16:50 <nsh> i'm not vested at all and i'm wary of centralising tendencies
3452 2013-04-24 22:17:04 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: wow, Im not sure if thats stupid or balsy
3453 2013-04-24 22:17:11 <nsh> but that doesn't preclude realism
3454 2013-04-24 22:17:29 <helo> sounds more lazy to me
3455 2013-04-24 22:17:31 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: Well, the person holding his coins happens to be his brother, so there is some trust there...
3456 2013-04-24 22:17:39 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3457 2013-04-24 22:17:45 <Diablo-D3> petertodd: hell no, family should never be trusted with that
3458 2013-04-24 22:17:55 <Diablo-D3> NEVER mix money and family
3459 2013-04-24 22:18:03 <nsh> i think the matter of the blockchain being seconded to archival/general-timestamping purposes is somewhat orthogonal though
3460 2013-04-24 22:18:11 i2pRelay has joined
3461 2013-04-24 22:18:18 <NZGlitch> petertodd: Why does he not want to hold them himself? Is he affraid a law will be passed criminalizing anyone who has BTC holdings?
3462 2013-04-24 22:18:36 <BlueMatt> petertodd: I hope the holder is taking a fee
3463 2013-04-24 22:18:37 <tumak> nsh: imo there is nothing wrong with storage
3464 2013-04-24 22:18:37 <nsh> why couldn't the GPG/PGP 'proposal' be aimed at, e.g. namecoin?
3465 2013-04-24 22:18:40 <tumak> as long its reasonably priced
3466 2013-04-24 22:18:40 <petertodd> Diablo-D3: depends on the relationship, I mean, I'd probably do the same with my brother
3467 2013-04-24 22:18:59 <tumak> nsh: $500 for 2.5mb is imo reasonable price :)
3468 2013-04-24 22:19:08 * nsh smiles
3469 2013-04-24 22:19:13 <petertodd> NZGlitch: The guy trusts his brother to understand the tech more than himself. and yeah, I dunno about fees
3470 2013-04-24 22:19:41 <NZGlitch> Fair enough - I wish I could trust my brother that much
3471 2013-04-24 22:20:06 wizkid057 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3472 2013-04-24 22:20:28 <petertodd> NZGlitch: besides, knowing the person Bitcoins are probably the portion of his investments that he has no qualms taking 100% losses on, for whatever reason
3473 2013-04-24 22:21:13 <petertodd> tumak: the wikileaks people could have done it for $50...
3474 2013-04-24 22:21:28 PRab has joined
3475 2013-04-24 22:21:42 <saivann> saracen : Alright. I will import and merge your branch later today. Thanks
3476 2013-04-24 22:22:59 blakangel has joined
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3478 2013-04-24 22:24:41 rdymac has joined
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3480 2013-04-24 22:25:51 SvenDiagram has joined
3481 2013-04-24 22:25:56 xenesis_ has joined
3482 2013-04-24 22:26:14 i2pRelay has joined
3483 2013-04-24 22:26:27 <tumak> petertodd: well, at least theyre impatient cheapshots :)
3484 2013-04-24 22:26:41 <tumak> *theyre not
3485 2013-04-24 22:27:19 <petertodd> Yeah, who knows?
3486 2013-04-24 22:27:33 agricocb has joined
3487 2013-04-24 22:27:39 <petertodd> Other stuff was done at lower fees, but I also have no idea if all the crap at the same time was one or multiple people.
3488 2013-04-24 22:28:29 <The_Fly> argh, i cant watch amir taaki talk about bitcoin without getting frustrated
3489 2013-04-24 22:29:04 xenesis has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3490 2013-04-24 22:29:04 xenesis_ is now known as xenesis
3491 2013-04-24 22:29:14 whiterabbit has joined
3492 2013-04-24 22:29:44 <gmaxwell> Is amir still doing anything with Bitcoin?
3493 2013-04-24 22:29:58 <tumak> he's a tv star now
3494 2013-04-24 22:30:07 Eneerge_ has joined
3495 2013-04-24 22:30:37 <saivann> He's the revolutionary face of Bitcoin on TV
3496 2013-04-24 22:30:38 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3497 2013-04-24 22:30:40 <The_Fly> and an annoying one at that
3498 2013-04-24 22:30:42 whiterabbit is now known as wrabbit
3499 2013-04-24 22:30:44 Eneerge has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3500 2013-04-24 22:30:45 Eneerge_ is now known as Eneerge
3501 2013-04-24 22:30:45 Eneerge has quit (Changing host)
3502 2013-04-24 22:30:46 Eneerge has joined
3503 2013-04-24 22:30:46 Eneerge has quit (Changing host)
3504 2013-04-24 22:30:46 Eneerge has joined
3505 2013-04-24 22:30:51 <The_Fly> he's not good at interviews
3506 2013-04-24 22:30:54 <The_Fly> and not very mature
3507 2013-04-24 22:31:15 <The_Fly> not very succinct with his answers
3508 2013-04-24 22:31:30 <The_Fly> they are very unsatisfying answers, not very informative, bad for the layman
3509 2013-04-24 22:31:33 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
3510 2013-04-24 22:32:01 * ahf thinks he got everything in now: https://gist.github.com/ahf/3941646e095329100c04 (still needs a lot of rewording and rewriting though :-)
3511 2013-04-24 22:32:03 <tumak> petertodd: btw, i think i've just figured out how to make smart coins work with your evil https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2351/files
3512 2013-04-24 22:32:24 <saivann> From what I've seen, he's not the best one to give accurate and relevant answers. But he add some poetry around Bitcoin.
3513 2013-04-24 22:32:28 <ahf> and i still need to elaborate a bit on some of the points there
3514 2013-04-24 22:32:46 <tumak> simply send coins above threshold back and forth in same transaction (needs sender AND receiver signature, so it works only for p2ptrade)
3515 2013-04-24 22:32:49 <The_Fly> poetry...
3516 2013-04-24 22:32:55 <petertodd> tumak: https://github.com/petertodd/trustbits/blob/master/fidelitybond.md
3517 2013-04-24 22:33:24 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3518 2013-04-24 22:33:36 <petertodd> ahf: nifty, what are you doing with that?
3519 2013-04-24 22:33:44 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3520 2013-04-24 22:33:46 <The_Fly> ohhh ffs, he calls the interview "dude"
3521 2013-04-24 22:33:50 <The_Fly> facepalm
3522 2013-04-24 22:33:57 <saivann> :)
3523 2013-04-24 22:33:59 joe_gallo has joined
3524 2013-04-24 22:34:09 <tumak> petertodd: atomic trade?
3525 2013-04-24 22:34:16 i2pRelay has joined
3526 2013-04-24 22:34:27 <ahf> petertodd: trying to write a client
3527 2013-04-24 22:34:40 <ahf> petertodd: but wanted to elaborate a bit on the algorithm description written on the wiki
3528 2013-04-24 22:34:44 <petertodd> tumak: point is, smart coins don't need to have a fixed ratio of value to satoshis
3529 2013-04-24 22:34:46 <ahf> so i spend some hours reading code :o
3530 2013-04-24 22:35:06 <petertodd> ahf: ah cool, update the wiki where you can too
3531 2013-04-24 22:35:08 Guest15606 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3532 2013-04-24 22:35:32 <ahf> petertodd: will update it once i have went over it a few times and gotten someone else to proof read it too :-)
3533 2013-04-24 22:35:43 ColinT has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
3534 2013-04-24 22:35:48 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3535 2013-04-24 22:36:11 <petertodd> ahf: feel free to email it to me: pete@petertodd.org and I'll look at it this weekend
3536 2013-04-24 22:36:27 <tumak> petertodd: if i understand it correctly, it does not matter how much you transact but abuse the tx itself as metadata
3537 2013-04-24 22:36:36 <ahf> petertodd: let me finish up the last few points tomorrow and i will sent it your way. thanks a lot!
3538 2013-04-24 22:36:55 <ahf> need to go over transaction verification too afterwards
3539 2013-04-24 22:37:04 <petertodd> tumak: sorry, I don't follow, how does my patch stop what functionality from working?
3540 2013-04-24 22:37:20 ColinT has joined
3541 2013-04-24 22:37:37 <tumak> petertodd: it will treat sending satoshis utxo as spam, even if those represent some asset
3542 2013-04-24 22:38:04 <tumak> your workaround is to use custom encoding comprised of txs instead of satoshi denominations, right?
3543 2013-04-24 22:38:18 <petertodd> tumak: no, read the fidelity bond link
3544 2013-04-24 22:38:34 <petertodd> tumak: the work around is to calculate value by keeping track of the ratios
3545 2013-04-24 22:39:33 <BlueMatt> next time someone asks how to limit bitcoind bandwidth: http://monkey.org/~marius/pages/?page=trickle
3546 2013-04-24 22:39:36 <tumak> oh i get it
3547 2013-04-24 22:39:56 <petertodd> tumak: yup, and remember that you need that full chain of data back to the original TX anyway for SPV clients
3548 2013-04-24 22:40:20 <tumak> petertodd: if its txin 200 and out 50, then value is 4
3549 2013-04-24 22:40:46 zrad has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3550 2013-04-24 22:40:48 <lianj> ahf: i think there is a super majority check for "Ensure that the block height is equal to the height defined in the coinbase transaction." too
3551 2013-04-24 22:41:10 <tumak> petertodd: yeah, i calculating balance of that is the tricky part :(
3552 2013-04-24 22:41:15 <petertodd> tumak: well, the more interesting case, is lets suppose I have 1 single colored satoshi in, and two colored outputs, each with 1 satoshi, the input value is 1 share == 1 satoshi, and the output value is 0.5shares == 1 satoshi
3553 2013-04-24 22:41:30 <petertodd> tumak: lots of bookkeeping sure, but that's what computers are for :)
3554 2013-04-24 22:41:47 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3555 2013-04-24 22:41:48 <petertodd> tumak: the code really isn't that bad, and it only needs to be written once
3556 2013-04-24 22:41:55 felixhandte has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3557 2013-04-24 22:42:16 <lianj> ahf: also dont set GetNextWorkRequired mentioned
3558 2013-04-24 22:42:19 i2pRelay has joined
3559 2013-04-24 22:43:15 johnsoft1 has joined
3560 2013-04-24 22:43:35 <tumak> petertodd: i suppose
3561 2013-04-24 22:43:52 <tumak> petertodd: both plain colored coins and your scheme need to traverse txes to genesis
3562 2013-04-24 22:44:09 <petertodd> tumak: yup, so might as well support infinite divisibility while you are at it
3563 2013-04-24 22:44:45 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3564 2013-04-24 22:46:27 Guest69011 is now known as grapevine
3565 2013-04-24 22:46:32 grapevine has quit (Changing host)
3566 2013-04-24 22:46:32 grapevine has joined
3567 2013-04-24 22:48:51 <The_Fly> feck sake, amir ends the interview mentioning the fact that girls on reddit post books with bitcoin address written on them
3568 2013-04-24 22:49:02 crank has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3569 2013-04-24 22:49:49 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3570 2013-04-24 22:50:21 <The_Fly> *boobs
3571 2013-04-24 22:50:21 i2pRelay has joined
3572 2013-04-24 22:50:24 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3573 2013-04-24 22:50:35 <Diablo-D3> what a loser
3574 2013-04-24 22:50:43 <Diablo-D3> is that all people think about anymore? boobs?
3575 2013-04-24 22:51:09 taha has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3576 2013-04-24 22:51:51 rowit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3577 2013-04-24 22:51:53 <The_Fly> lol
3578 2013-04-24 22:51:55 <kaptah> better than the dude on finnish morning tv who ended the interview by saying you can buy guns and drugs with btc.
3579 2013-04-24 22:52:19 <The_Fly> he also invoked the topic of 3d printed guns on al jezira (sp)
3580 2013-04-24 22:52:26 freefox has joined
3581 2013-04-24 22:52:31 <The_Fly> jazeera
3582 2013-04-24 22:52:44 <The_Fly> bitcoin needs better spokespeople
3583 2013-04-24 22:52:47 freefox has left ()
3584 2013-04-24 22:52:55 * BlueMatt remembers when people were happy to get a shitty mention on an online blog on a real newssource...
3585 2013-04-24 22:53:18 <The_Fly> :)
3586 2013-04-24 22:53:37 <The_Fly> kids these days
3587 2013-04-24 22:53:56 jedunnigan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3588 2013-04-24 22:54:16 crank has joined
3589 2013-04-24 22:54:21 <BlueMatt> I know, right?
3590 2013-04-24 22:54:31 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
3591 2013-04-24 22:55:11 <The_Fly> i think amir seems to think we'll 3d print an uprising
3592 2013-04-24 22:55:35 <The_Fly> anyway...
3593 2013-04-24 22:55:44 <The_Fly> not making much progress here :(
3594 2013-04-24 22:55:52 rdymac has joined
3595 2013-04-24 22:56:18 lmacken has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3596 2013-04-24 22:56:22 <The_Fly> trying to avoid using something like bitpay (or other payment gateways)
3597 2013-04-24 22:56:24 chorao has joined
3598 2013-04-24 22:56:28 <The_Fly> and learn something in the process
3599 2013-04-24 22:56:39 <The_Fly> bitcoinjs-server is not playing nice
3600 2013-04-24 22:57:13 xenesis_ has joined
3601 2013-04-24 22:57:17 Elmf has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3602 2013-04-24 22:57:52 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3603 2013-04-24 22:57:55 <The_Fly> seems it is locked to old version of node
3604 2013-04-24 22:57:56 owowodopolous has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3605 2013-04-24 22:58:06 Btceldur has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3606 2013-04-24 22:58:15 SchmalzTech has quit ()
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3609 2013-04-24 22:58:49 <Luke-Jr> The_Fly: notice Amir isn't listed in the Press Center <.<
3610 2013-04-24 22:58:59 <ahf> lianj: yup
3611 2013-04-24 22:59:00 <Luke-Jr> but seriously, 3D print guns? got a link? XD
3612 2013-04-24 22:59:01 WKNiGHT has joined
3613 2013-04-24 22:59:03 <BlueMatt> The_Fly: I was afraid of that...its a bit unmaintained
3614 2013-04-24 22:59:09 darenthis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3615 2013-04-24 22:59:15 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: you can 3d print a very temporary firing pin
3616 2013-04-24 22:59:27 robocoin has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
3617 2013-04-24 22:59:28 <Luke-Jr> meh, sounds useless
3618 2013-04-24 22:59:31 <The_Fly> Luke-Jr: :P
3619 2013-04-24 22:59:35 <lianj> hihi, very temporary
3620 2013-04-24 22:59:44 <The_Fly> BlueMatt: yeah, although i did see a commit talking of node v10
3621 2013-04-24 22:59:54 <The_Fly> so seems the maintainer(s) are picking it up again
3622 2013-04-24 23:00:03 <The_Fly> im trying nvm to switch to 0.8.x
3623 2013-04-24 23:00:08 <The_Fly> but would prefer not to...
3624 2013-04-24 23:00:10 <Luke-Jr> is there a cheap 3D printer that can print 3D printers yet? :P
3625 2013-04-24 23:00:20 xenesis has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
3626 2013-04-24 23:00:20 xenesis_ is now known as xenesis
3627 2013-04-24 23:00:25 <The_Fly> yo dawg
3628 2013-04-24 23:00:30 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: yes, all of them (minus the important parts)
3629 2013-04-24 23:00:44 agricocb has joined
3630 2013-04-24 23:00:54 <The_Fly> minus the metal parts
3631 2013-04-24 23:01:03 <The_Fly> and the servos
3632 2013-04-24 23:01:03 <gmaxwell> and the electronic parts...
3633 2013-04-24 23:01:07 <The_Fly> yep
3634 2013-04-24 23:01:13 <The_Fly> the chips which need fab'd
3635 2013-04-24 23:01:24 <gmaxwell> and any part that needs to be precise.... or strong.
3636 2013-04-24 23:01:27 <Luke-Jr> so not really
3637 2013-04-24 23:01:28 <lianj> and you want to switch to metal gears instead of the printed ones too :P
3638 2013-04-24 23:01:55 <The_Fly> one day we'll tell some dna to grow a 3d printer for us
3639 2013-04-24 23:01:59 <gmaxwell> Everyone really wants it to be true.. but not quite.
3640 2013-04-24 23:01:59 <lianj> Luke-Jr: its still nice to have one to tinker on, its fun
3641 2013-04-24 23:02:18 seeingidog__ has joined
3642 2013-04-24 23:02:18 <gmaxwell> The_Fly: We can already use DNA to grow 3d printers, how do you think we got the 3d printers we have now?
3643 2013-04-24 23:02:30 <gmaxwell> man == universal constructor (some accessories required)
3644 2013-04-24 23:02:31 <The_Fly> oh yeah
3645 2013-04-24 23:02:36 <The_Fly> i forgot that
3646 2013-04-24 23:02:41 pizzacat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3647 2013-04-24 23:03:03 <The_Fly> its late, these profound notions escape me :P
3648 2013-04-24 23:03:40 <The_Fly> i suppose women are like 3d printers that can only make human babies
3649 2013-04-24 23:03:52 <The_Fly> within that same metaphor
3650 2013-04-24 23:03:54 MobGod has joined
3651 2013-04-24 23:03:55 MobGod has quit (Changing host)
3652 2013-04-24 23:03:55 MobGod has joined
3653 2013-04-24 23:03:56 <ProfMac_> you can order metal parts from shapeways. Stainless, silver.
3654 2013-04-24 23:04:33 <ProfMac_> There are medical printers that print replacement bone in titanium.
3655 2013-04-24 23:04:52 AusBitBank_ has joined
3656 2013-04-24 23:05:30 tcatm has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
3657 2013-04-24 23:05:32 darenthis has joined
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3660 2013-04-24 23:05:48 tcatm has joined
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3662 2013-04-24 23:06:26 i2pRelay has joined
3663 2013-04-24 23:06:50 [Elementum] has joined
3664 2013-04-24 23:07:30 <The_Fly> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-DVOYyx_6U
3665 2013-04-24 23:07:31 <The_Fly> :(
3666 2013-04-24 23:07:35 <The_Fly> :( :( :(
3667 2013-04-24 23:07:49 <tumak> petertodd: just to confirm - assume there are 1000 securities issued by a company. A first tx to transfer 100 of those would vould be Vout_n = Vin * vout_n/vout with Vout_n=100, Vin=1000, Vout_n=1000 and vout=100
3668 2013-04-24 23:07:52 CaptainBlaze has quit (Quit: CaptainBlaze)
3669 2013-04-24 23:08:03 median^ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3670 2013-04-24 23:08:12 <The_Fly> "Bitcoin is great, but Amir Taki is BAD FOR BITCOIN AND SHOULD LEAVE! Google "Bitcoinica Hack" for the details of the hack and theft of source code by Amir. Well over $500,000 was stolen as a direct result of Amir's actions."
3671 2013-04-24 23:08:14 <tumak> with V for contract value, and v for nominal value. Or in other words, the fraction of the value in is just the nominal value proportioned among all contract outputs. <<-- supper confusing for people who dont have english as native language :)
3672 2013-04-24 23:08:53 <saivann> The_Fly : I guess you are afraid that Amir gets on bitcoin.org press center?
3673 2013-04-24 23:09:15 <gmaxwell> I would object to that.
3674 2013-04-24 23:09:15 parasciidic has quit (Quit: Quit:)
3675 2013-04-24 23:09:41 <The_Fly> 07719980382
3676 2013-04-24 23:10:02 <The_Fly> his phone number
3677 2013-04-24 23:10:05 darenthis has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3678 2013-04-24 23:10:09 <The_Fly> on a slide at the beinning of the talk
3679 2013-04-24 23:12:30 dvide has joined
3680 2013-04-24 23:12:56 ColinT has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
3681 2013-04-24 23:13:06 <lianj> saw him on the news once screaming at other people and not letting them talk. bad bad
3682 2013-04-24 23:13:55 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3683 2013-04-24 23:14:03 <The_Fly> yeah he did that on al jazeera
3684 2013-04-24 23:14:15 <The_Fly> when the other guys weren't even disagreeing with him
3685 2013-04-24 23:14:26 i2pRelay has joined
3686 2013-04-24 23:14:29 <The_Fly> plus he was wearing a stupid "mohawke"
3687 2013-04-24 23:14:39 parasciidic has joined
3688 2013-04-24 23:15:06 joe_gallo has quit (Quit: joe_gallo)
3689 2013-04-24 23:15:48 <The_Fly> lol, i have to stop clicking on videos with him in or i'll never get any work done
3690 2013-04-24 23:17:07 <Luke-Jr> lol, he actually takes a call during his presentation
3691 2013-04-24 23:18:05 <The_Fly> noob
3692 2013-04-24 23:18:19 <The_Fly> never saw that but i might have just thrown my computer at the wall
3693 2013-04-24 23:18:32 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3694 2013-04-24 23:19:15 <gmaxwell> okay, we get the point.
3695 2013-04-24 23:19:34 <gmaxwell> This is OT.
3696 2013-04-24 23:19:47 gaantr2 has joined
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3698 2013-04-24 23:21:04 <The_Fly> sure, sorry
3699 2013-04-24 23:21:29 Elmf has joined
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3701 2013-04-24 23:22:28 i2pRelay has joined
3702 2013-04-24 23:25:25 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3703 2013-04-24 23:25:36 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3704 2013-04-24 23:25:46 <The_Fly> hm, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/743
3705 2013-04-24 23:26:08 copumpkin has joined
3706 2013-04-24 23:26:23 ColinT has joined
3707 2013-04-24 23:26:28 <The_Fly> is blocknotify useful if i want to know the instant my node knows about a transaction (to one of the addresses in my wallet, say)
3708 2013-04-24 23:26:57 bibbybob has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3709 2013-04-24 23:27:43 wizkid057 has joined
3710 2013-04-24 23:28:00 robbak_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3711 2013-04-24 23:28:05 <lianj> not really
3712 2013-04-24 23:28:30 robbak_ has joined
3713 2013-04-24 23:28:42 <The_Fly> < BlueMatt> The_Fly: there is a 0mq branch as well as the -blocknotify parameter
3714 2013-04-24 23:28:56 <The_Fly> < sipa> The_Fly: there is -blocknotify (and in 0.8.2, -walletnotify) which execute a command when a new block is retrieved and when wallet transactions are updated
3715 2013-04-24 23:29:36 <The_Fly> BlueMatt's suggestion of scanning active transactions is ok
3716 2013-04-24 23:29:44 urlshell65 has joined
3717 2013-04-24 23:29:44 <The_Fly> but would that not mean multiple calls to bitcoind?
3718 2013-04-24 23:29:48 <The_Fly> per active transaction
3719 2013-04-24 23:30:00 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3720 2013-04-24 23:30:15 <sipa> -blocknotify notifies when there is a new block, that is all
3721 2013-04-24 23:30:22 <sipa> it has nothing to do with wallet transactions
3722 2013-04-24 23:30:32 i2pRelay has joined
3723 2013-04-24 23:30:37 <The_Fly> ok
3724 2013-04-24 23:30:48 <sipa> -walletnotify runs a command every time a transaction is either first seen on the network, or when it gets its first confirmation
3725 2013-04-24 23:30:57 <sipa> (which affects your wallet)
3726 2013-04-24 23:30:59 <The_Fly> and subsequent confirmations?
3727 2013-04-24 23:31:18 <BlueMatt> when a block appears, that is a confirmation
3728 2013-04-24 23:31:29 <BlueMatt> (well, assuming its a new head and such, not sure exactly what blocknotify notifies on)
3729 2013-04-24 23:31:41 <sipa> blocknotify notifies on a new head
3730 2013-04-24 23:31:59 a5m0 is now known as info
3731 2013-04-24 23:32:14 info is now known as a5m0
3732 2013-04-24 23:32:27 <The_Fly> and upon blocknotify i can query bitcoind on the addresses assigned to open transactions
3733 2013-04-24 23:33:18 <sipa> indeed
3734 2013-04-24 23:33:23 geb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3735 2013-04-24 23:33:38 <The_Fly> would be nice to use walletnotify for when first seen on network, is that present on a branch/fork somewhere?
3736 2013-04-24 23:34:05 LainZ has joined
3737 2013-04-24 23:34:09 csc` is now known as Turks
3738 2013-04-24 23:34:33 <The_Fly> is this going to invoke a command per transaction on the network?
3739 2013-04-24 23:34:44 <The_Fly> it would be good to filter by only those affecting my wallet
3740 2013-04-24 23:34:48 <sipa> dude
3741 2013-04-24 23:34:51 <sipa> can you read?
3742 2013-04-24 23:34:54 <The_Fly> (is this the purpose of walletnotify)
3743 2013-04-24 23:35:01 <The_Fly> yeah......
3744 2013-04-24 23:35:08 <sipa> 01:08:16 < sipa> -walletnotify runs a command every time a transaction is either first seen on the network, or when it gets its first confirmation
3745 2013-04-24 23:35:11 <sipa> 01:08:25 < sipa> (which affects your wallet)
3746 2013-04-24 23:35:37 <The_Fly> ok, i didn't sleep much last night, very tired
3747 2013-04-24 23:35:40 <The_Fly> apologies
3748 2013-04-24 23:36:33 xenesis_ has joined
3749 2013-04-24 23:37:49 <The_Fly> day job means i can only tinker in the evenings :(
3750 2013-04-24 23:38:06 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3751 2013-04-24 23:38:15 <Turks> was there a bug in the android wallet recently regarding fees?
3752 2013-04-24 23:38:33 i2pRelay has joined
3753 2013-04-24 23:38:37 <Turks> because every damn transaction i send from it always takes more than 3 hours to confirm.
3754 2013-04-24 23:38:39 <Turks> quite annoying.
3755 2013-04-24 23:38:47 grapevine is now known as grapevine`
3756 2013-04-24 23:38:49 <blakangel> anyone seen this error w/ bitcoind and p2pool
3757 2013-04-24 23:38:50 <blakangel> Warning: local node 127.0.0.1:16461 misbehaving
3758 2013-04-24 23:38:50 <blakangel> ERROR: CheckProofOfWork() : hash doesn't match nBits
3759 2013-04-24 23:38:50 <blakangel> ERROR: CheckBlock() : proof of work failed
3760 2013-04-24 23:38:50 <blakangel> ERROR: ProcessBlock() : CheckBlock FAILED
3761 2013-04-24 23:38:53 brocktice is now known as brocktice`
3762 2013-04-24 23:38:54 <blakangel> gettin tons of those
3763 2013-04-24 23:38:58 <Turks> blakangel, pastebin does wonders.
3764 2013-04-24 23:39:06 grapevine` is now known as grapevine
3765 2013-04-24 23:39:16 brocktice` is now known as brocktice
3766 2013-04-24 23:39:25 xenesis has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3767 2013-04-24 23:39:25 xenesis_ is now known as xenesis
3768 2013-04-24 23:39:40 <blakangel> i only pastebin for 5 lines and above
3769 2013-04-24 23:40:11 mE\Ta has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3770 2013-04-24 23:40:17 <Turks> you should change that to 3 lines and above.
3771 2013-04-24 23:40:22 <Turks> general rule of thumb
3772 2013-04-24 23:40:42 <Turks> technically that was six lines in a row.
3773 2013-04-24 23:40:45 <Turks> so yeah.
3774 2013-04-24 23:40:52 <saracen> You just said 4 lines in a row.
3775 2013-04-24 23:41:21 <Turks> but am i pasting something? no.
3776 2013-04-24 23:41:30 <saracen> How would I know?
3777 2013-04-24 23:41:41 <Turks> because they'd be a second apart
3778 2013-04-24 23:41:44 <Turks> and not 6
3779 2013-04-24 23:42:16 <sipa> let's not spend a 20 line discussion about which number of lines needs a pastebin, ok?
3780 2013-04-24 23:42:24 <blakangel> im down with that
3781 2013-04-24 23:42:36 <blakangel> i've just changed my pastebin policy to 3+ lines per Turks recommendation
3782 2013-04-24 23:42:42 <sipa> good
3783 2013-04-24 23:42:42 <blakangel> im sending out a memo right now
3784 2013-04-24 23:42:48 Steve132 has joined
3785 2013-04-24 23:42:52 <sipa> that error is strange
3786 2013-04-24 23:42:58 <sipa> is it the latest version of p2pool?
3787 2013-04-24 23:43:02 <blakangel> yeah ive looked at the bitcoind code
3788 2013-04-24 23:43:11 <blakangel> yeah it was from mar 13
3789 2013-04-24 23:43:16 <blakangel> but i did a git pull and recompiled
3790 2013-04-24 23:43:23 <blakangel> same errors
3791 2013-04-24 23:43:36 <Turks> blakangel, its just courtesy, most people don't mind one or two lines but anything bigger than that can cause a hassle. It can also split up your problem in between a bunch of people talking :P
3792 2013-04-24 23:43:48 <sipa> yeah yeah
3793 2013-04-24 23:44:26 <sipa> i have no such errors in my bitcoind log
3794 2013-04-24 23:44:33 <The_Fly> hm, no walletnotify on 0.8.1.0-g34d62a8-beta, installed from bitcoin ppa, i take it i'm better off with building from source?
3795 2013-04-24 23:44:40 <blakangel> yeha i only get them when i run p2pool
3796 2013-04-24 23:44:44 canooon has joined
3797 2013-04-24 23:45:06 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
3798 2013-04-24 23:45:12 <The_Fly> github project says 0.8.0 beta :S
3799 2013-04-24 23:45:14 <sipa> The_Fly: as i said, as of 0.8.2
3800 2013-04-24 23:45:22 <sipa> The_Fly: which isn't released yet
3801 2013-04-24 23:45:30 <sipa> blakangel: i'm running p2pool too
3802 2013-04-24 23:45:42 <blakangel> i think ive tracked down the offending code in p2pool
3803 2013-04-24 23:45:47 <blakangel> running it w/ debug logs
3804 2013-04-24 23:45:50 <torsthaldo> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/
3805 2013-04-24 23:46:02 paraipan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3806 2013-04-24 23:46:02 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3807 2013-04-24 23:46:03 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3808 2013-04-24 23:46:06 MK9 has joined
3809 2013-04-24 23:46:08 <torsthaldo> Sorry! This site is experiencing technical difficulties.
3810 2013-04-24 23:46:08 <torsthaldo> Try waiting a few minutes and reloading.
3811 2013-04-24 23:46:09 <torsthaldo> (Can't contact the database server: Lost connection to MySQL server at 'reading initial communication packet', system error: 111 (mysql))
3812 2013-04-24 23:46:10 <The_Fly> sipa: ok, but i see a merged pull request on github
3813 2013-04-24 23:46:13 <The_Fly> for the feature
3814 2013-04-24 23:46:23 <blakangel> torsthaldo: please use pastebin for 3 or more lines
3815 2013-04-24 23:46:34 <The_Fly> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1974
3816 2013-04-24 23:46:35 i2pRelay has joined
3817 2013-04-24 23:46:43 <sipa> The_Fly: yes, it's in git head
3818 2013-04-24 23:46:45 <The_Fly> to master though, which is unstable?
3819 2013-04-24 23:46:47 <The_Fly> right
3820 2013-04-24 23:46:58 <sipa> where do you see 0.8.0 beta?
3821 2013-04-24 23:47:14 paraipan has joined
3822 2013-04-24 23:47:19 <torsthaldo> In one sentence: The wiki is down. ;)
3823 2013-04-24 23:47:28 <sipa> torsthaldo: yes, we know
3824 2013-04-24 23:47:31 <The_Fly> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tree/master/doc
3825 2013-04-24 23:47:37 <The_Fly> is there
3826 2013-04-24 23:47:39 <torsthaldo> kk :)
3827 2013-04-24 23:47:56 <sipa> The_Fly: right, 0.8.0 was the latest version in that tree
3828 2013-04-24 23:48:06 <sipa> 0.8.1 was an emergency release that branched off
3829 2013-04-24 23:48:09 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3830 2013-04-24 23:48:11 <The_Fly> ah ok
3831 2013-04-24 23:48:12 chorao has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3832 2013-04-24 23:48:21 <The_Fly> i guess i can live with building and testing head for now
3833 2013-04-24 23:48:25 <The_Fly> assuming it runs
3834 2013-04-24 23:48:30 <Turks> so no response to my android wallet question :<?
3835 2013-04-24 23:48:30 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
3836 2013-04-24 23:48:34 <sipa> we're now working towards 0.8.2 which descends from 0.8.0, but has 0.8.1's changed back.. eh... forward ported
3837 2013-04-24 23:48:43 <The_Fly> ok
3838 2013-04-24 23:48:59 <sipa> Turks: not really a bug, but it's a known problem
3839 2013-04-24 23:49:15 <The_Fly> at work we're running development branch, feature branches, master is "stable"
3840 2013-04-24 23:49:20 <The_Fly> and i guess tagging for demos of the product
3841 2013-04-24 23:49:25 <Turks> sipa, in other words i shouldn't use the android wallet at the moment.
3842 2013-04-24 23:49:32 <sipa> Turks: won't change much
3843 2013-04-24 23:49:40 <blakangel> here is the prob in p2pool i think http://pastebin.com/zSQ6pcMR
3844 2013-04-24 23:49:43 <sipa> there's just a high load of transactions on the network
3845 2013-04-24 23:49:44 <blakangel> gonna have to track that down
3846 2013-04-24 23:49:47 <Turks> i've been waiting quite a few hours for a confirmation =\
3847 2013-04-24 23:49:54 <The_Fly> but erm... if the test suites run on head, i'll just try that
3848 2013-04-24 23:49:54 <Turks> because supposidly the fee is too low.
3849 2013-04-24 23:50:05 <Turks> other transactions have posted before this one has even gotten a single one
3850 2013-04-24 23:50:18 <Turks> and its a higher priority (personal) than the other ones im receiving.
3851 2013-04-24 23:50:24 <The_Fly> well, i'll try building and running it
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3855 2013-04-24 23:51:22 <Turks> its just now getting a single confirmation, heh.
3856 2013-04-24 23:51:58 <sipa> it's only the first confirmation that matters
3857 2013-04-24 23:52:11 <sipa> the next ones are automatic, one for every block mined
3858 2013-04-24 23:52:33 <sipa> but for the first confirmation, a miner has to include your transaction in a block
3859 2013-04-24 23:52:44 <sipa> and there's limited space in those, and many transactions competing for that space
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3871 2013-04-24 23:57:09 <tumak> The_Fly: btw, i've ported node to latest nodejs
3872 2013-04-24 23:57:16 <tumak> but wouldn't dare to use it in production anyways
3873 2013-04-24 23:57:30 <tumak> s/node/bitcoinjs/
3874 2013-04-24 23:57:40 <The_Fly> ah cool
3875 2013-04-24 23:57:44 <The_Fly> bitcoinjs-server?
3876 2013-04-24 23:57:48 <tumak> https://github.com/katuma/bitcoinjs-server
3877 2013-04-24 23:57:54 Guest97289 is now known as gaantr2
3878 2013-04-24 23:57:56 <The_Fly> aha, thank you!
3879 2013-04-24 23:58:17 <The_Fly> i may go for walletnotify, but would be nice actually to have bitcoind run in a streamed mode of sorts
3880 2013-04-24 23:58:31 <tumak> actually that part is sometimes acting up :(
3881 2013-04-24 23:58:33 <The_Fly> where node could run bitcoind and pipe commands in and receive notifications out
3882 2013-04-24 23:58:37 <Scrat> tumak: hey, at least it cant be buffer overflown to oblivion
3883 2013-04-24 23:58:44 <Scrat> tumak: was it the recent stream changes?
3884 2013-04-24 23:58:50 <tumak> (regardless of node version)
3885 2013-04-24 23:58:57 <amiller> does anyone implement a "rational mining pool"
3886 2013-04-24 23:59:15 <gaantr2> anyone seen TD?
3887 2013-04-24 23:59:18 <tumak> Scrat: no idea
3888 2013-04-24 23:59:27 <tumak> Scrat: but nodejs is shitty platform to begin with
3889 2013-04-24 23:59:27 <BlueMatt> gaantr2: sleeping
3890 2013-04-24 23:59:28 [Elementum] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
3891 2013-04-24 23:59:31 <tumak> crazy limits in v8 :(
3892 2013-04-24 23:59:31 <amiller> like one that publicly declares its goal is to maximize profit for its members but possibly at the expense of 'non-honest' mining behavior
3893 2013-04-24 23:59:35 <sipa> gaantr2: he's asleep
3894 2013-04-24 23:59:46 <gaantr2> bluematt: hehe.. long day?
3895 2013-04-24 23:59:55 <sipa> gaantr2: no, wrong timezone
3896 2013-04-24 23:59:58 <BlueMatt> gaantr2: no, different timezone