1 2013-04-25 00:00:05 <gaantr2> asia?
2 2013-04-25 00:00:11 <sipa> it's 1:37 am here
3 2013-04-25 00:00:28 <gaantr2> sipa: where art thou?
4 2013-04-25 00:00:33 d70 has joined
5 2013-04-25 00:00:33 d70 has quit (Changing host)
6 2013-04-25 00:00:33 d70 has joined
7 2013-04-25 00:00:35 <sipa> europe
8 2013-04-25 00:00:51 <The_Fly> if im running bitcoind on localhost i shouldn't really need to worry about a PIE build right?
9 2013-04-25 00:00:52 <gaantr2> norway or something?
10 2013-04-25 00:01:11 <tumak> amiller: thinking about one
11 2013-04-25 00:01:25 <tumak> amiller: basically mod bitcoind to strive for highest fees regardless of tx size
12 2013-04-25 00:01:28 <tumak> and fuck the rest :)
13 2013-04-25 00:01:37 <amiller> yup
14 2013-04-25 00:01:44 <gaantr2> gribble in this channel doesn't seem to like the ;;tell command
15 2013-04-25 00:01:49 canooon has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
16 2013-04-25 00:02:04 <The_Fly> tumak: how did you get around the leveldb install issue?
17 2013-04-25 00:02:07 <BlueMatt> iirc, that is a command line option (minus the temp block size limit)
18 2013-04-25 00:02:07 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
19 2013-04-25 00:02:10 <BlueMatt> gaantr2: ;;later tell
20 2013-04-25 00:02:15 <tumak> The_Fly: modded leveldb too :)
21 2013-04-25 00:02:17 <gaantr2> ;;tell TD - by the way, I got the new system working with 0.9 and she is working like a charm so far.
22 2013-04-25 00:02:18 <gribble> Error: I haven't seen TD, I'll let you do the telling.
23 2013-04-25 00:02:19 <Luke-Jr> gaantr2: neither do I
24 2013-04-25 00:02:21 <The_Fly> tumak: nice
25 2013-04-25 00:02:23 <The_Fly> thanks
26 2013-04-25 00:02:30 <gaantr2> oh
27 2013-04-25 00:02:39 i2pRelay has joined
28 2013-04-25 00:02:57 <Scrat> tumak: you mean the heap limits?
29 2013-04-25 00:03:10 <The_Fly> tumak: with bitcoinjs i can get an event for a transaction to/from my wallet?
30 2013-04-25 00:03:16 <tumak> The_Fly: yup
31 2013-04-25 00:03:17 <The_Fly> i'll take a look at your fork now
32 2013-04-25 00:03:21 <tumak> The_Fly: you just subscribe your pubkeys
33 2013-04-25 00:03:30 * gaantr2 clubs himself with a giant rotting salmon.
34 2013-04-25 00:03:40 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
35 2013-04-25 00:03:40 <tumak> and bitcoinjs streams everything concerning it (ie individual txes or blocks affecting it)
36 2013-04-25 00:03:47 kylls has quit (Quit: EliteBNC - http://www.elitebnc.net/)
37 2013-04-25 00:03:58 <tumak> The_Fly: http://webcoinx.tumak.cz/index.html
38 2013-04-25 00:04:04 <tumak> testnet demo actually
39 2013-04-25 00:04:14 parasciidic has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
40 2013-04-25 00:04:31 <tumak> (its so MVP it even allows sending txes on top of zeroconf too)
41 2013-04-25 00:05:17 owowo has joined
42 2013-04-25 00:05:48 <Jearil> as the valuation of bitcoins increases (in comparison to USD) is there any plans for the minimum transaction fee to adjust to below 5 mBTC per 500 bytes?
43 2013-04-25 00:05:49 <tumak> Scrat: yeah, pretty much arbitrary limits on anything where there shouldnt be
44 2013-04-25 00:05:58 <tumak> like, whats wrong with 30gb array?
45 2013-04-25 00:06:04 <BlueMatt> Jearil: yes
46 2013-04-25 00:06:17 <tumak> (i actually tried to keep whole blockchain ram :)
47 2013-04-25 00:06:20 <Scrat> 30gb of anything on a GC is a bad idea, lol
48 2013-04-25 00:06:27 <Jearil> BlueMatt, has there been any sort of official or semi-official timeline or plan for that?
49 2013-04-25 00:06:50 xenesis_ has joined
50 2013-04-25 00:06:52 Diapolis has joined
51 2013-04-25 00:07:04 <BlueMatt> Jearil: there was discussion earlier today of throwing something in 0.8.2, and hopefully there will be smarter (read: non-constant) minfee calculations by 0.9
52 2013-04-25 00:07:13 kylls has joined
53 2013-04-25 00:07:22 <Jearil> BlueMatt, awesome, thanks.
54 2013-04-25 00:07:28 <tumak> Scrat: well i wanted to use bytearray with custom heapref structure to be near-c efficient
55 2013-04-25 00:07:31 <tumak> Scrat: testnet ... ok
56 2013-04-25 00:07:41 <tumak> mainnet boom, apparently such things are impusibl
57 2013-04-25 00:07:42 Sealy has joined
58 2013-04-25 00:08:20 d70 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
59 2013-04-25 00:08:38 <The_Fly> tumak: would be nice to get some socket.io sync of transaction status
60 2013-04-25 00:08:49 <tumak> The_Fly: what do you mean?
61 2013-04-25 00:09:05 <Scrat> The_Fly: no it wouldnt, socket.io is terrible
62 2013-04-25 00:09:17 <tumak> The_Fly: it works through socket.io :
63 2013-04-25 00:09:37 <tumak> you subscribe addresses, you get realtime notifications, thats it
64 2013-04-25 00:09:41 <tumak> other than that, socket.io really sucks
65 2013-04-25 00:09:45 xenesis has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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72 2013-04-25 00:12:45 <The_Fly> Scrat: socket.io is not terrible
73 2013-04-25 00:13:00 <The_Fly> has some quite useful features
74 2013-04-25 00:13:23 <The_Fly> beyond the fallbacks / multiple transports
75 2013-04-25 00:13:48 <The_Fly> im not really seeing how it sucks tbh
76 2013-04-25 00:14:04 <The_Fly> the "rooms" feature is quite handy
77 2013-04-25 00:14:15 <The_Fly> it has auth also
78 2013-04-25 00:14:42 darenthis has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
79 2013-04-25 00:14:50 <The_Fly> so you can handshake and deny connections which have no session
80 2013-04-25 00:14:56 <The_Fly> cookie
81 2013-04-25 00:15:10 ToryJujube_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
82 2013-04-25 00:16:14 <The_Fly> so in combination with passport.js it's quite good
83 2013-04-25 00:18:11 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
84 2013-04-25 00:18:41 <urlshell65> Care to answer a stackoverflow question? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16204188/cannot-build-bitcoin Thanks!
85 2013-04-25 00:18:43 i2pRelay has joined
86 2013-04-25 00:19:33 <The_Fly> idk, i just think "it sucks" is a bit unfair
87 2013-04-25 00:19:57 itsTorin has joined
88 2013-04-25 00:20:23 <Luke-Jr> urlshell65: merely reading build-unix is not enough, you need to do what it says also
89 2013-04-25 00:20:29 Shadowflank has joined
90 2013-04-25 00:20:49 <Luke-Jr> urlshell65: in particular, install boost
91 2013-04-25 00:20:57 <itsTorin> I am hiring a web bitcoin developer. Please PM me if you're interested
92 2013-04-25 00:21:38 ngc0202 has left ()
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94 2013-04-25 00:22:08 Turks has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
95 2013-04-25 00:22:18 Shadowflank is now known as Turks
96 2013-04-25 00:22:56 macboz has joined
97 2013-04-25 00:22:57 <Luke-Jr> itsTorin: http://www.reddit.com/r/Jobs4bitcoins
98 2013-04-25 00:23:05 owowo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
99 2013-04-25 00:23:14 <itsTorin> I don't use Reddit :p
100 2013-04-25 00:23:39 owowo has joined
101 2013-04-25 00:23:41 <Luke-Jr> itsTorin: #bitcoin-otc or #bitcoin-tech then
102 2013-04-25 00:23:53 <itsTorin> All the developers are here, though? :P
103 2013-04-25 00:23:57 kylls has left ("Ex-Chat")
104 2013-04-25 00:24:30 <urlshell65> Luke-Jr: ok
105 2013-04-25 00:24:58 <ngc0202> Is someone working on something where one can speed up initial confirmation of a specific transaction?
106 2013-04-25 00:25:07 <Luke-Jr> itsTorin: people here are software developers, not necessarily web developers (which #bitcoin-tech is for)
107 2013-04-25 00:25:26 <Luke-Jr> (yes, I'm aware web dev is technically software too, but couldn't be bothered coming up with a better term)
108 2013-04-25 00:26:10 <itsTorin> :P
109 2013-04-25 00:26:16 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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111 2013-04-25 00:30:50 <urlshell65> Luke-Jr: installed boost, but still the same error. File $PWD/boost/algorithm/string/classification.hpp doesn't exist. Feels bad man.
112 2013-04-25 00:31:14 <Luke-Jr> wait, why are you using $PWD there?
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119 2013-04-25 00:35:07 <urlshell65> Luke-Jr: oh wait, $PWD = src
120 2013-04-25 00:35:14 <urlshell65> Luke-Jr: http://pastie.org/7712355
121 2013-04-25 00:35:48 <sipa> urlshell65: apt-get install libboost-all-dev
122 2013-04-25 00:35:50 <Luke-Jr> urlshell65: you didn't tell it where to find boost headers..
123 2013-04-25 00:36:23 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
124 2013-04-25 00:36:24 <urlshell65> Luke-Jr: hmm
125 2013-04-25 00:36:36 <urlshell65> Luke-Jr: needs edit some files first?
126 2013-04-25 00:36:44 <sipa> urlshell65: what did you install where, and how?
127 2013-04-25 00:36:49 <Luke-Jr> urlshell65: no, makefile.unix has a set of parameters..
128 2013-04-25 00:36:51 <sipa> and which distro?
129 2013-04-25 00:36:52 <Luke-Jr> what OS btw?
130 2013-04-25 00:36:55 lmacken has joined
131 2013-04-25 00:37:27 <urlshell65> Luke-Jr: see http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16204188/cannot-build-bitcoin
132 2013-04-25 00:37:45 <Luke-Jr> doesn't say what OS afaics
133 2013-04-25 00:37:46 Diapolis has joined
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136 2013-04-25 00:38:30 <urlshell65> Luke-Jr: Fedora 18 (kinda in the uname output)
137 2013-04-25 00:38:49 <Luke-Jr> urlshell65: oh, have fun with that.. >_<
138 2013-04-25 00:38:53 LorenzoMoney1 has joined
139 2013-04-25 00:38:56 <sipa> that will be painful, as fedora's openssl doesn't have EC crypto
140 2013-04-25 00:38:59 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: you know Fedora, right?
141 2013-04-25 00:39:05 LorenzoMoney1 has left ()
142 2013-04-25 00:39:50 <urlshell65> any suggestions as to ops system
143 2013-04-25 00:39:57 <sipa> ops?
144 2013-04-25 00:40:06 jeef has joined
145 2013-04-25 00:40:16 <urlshell65> operating system
146 2013-04-25 00:40:28 one_zero has joined
147 2013-04-25 00:40:34 <sipa> ubuntu is likely easiest, as our own build environment uses that
148 2013-04-25 00:40:38 <sipa> jgarzik and gmaxwell can probably give hints about compiling bitcoin on fedora
149 2013-04-25 00:40:50 * sipa zZzZ
150 2013-04-25 00:40:51 <jchp> urlshell65: sudo yum install boost.x86_64
151 2013-04-25 00:40:59 <urlshell65> jchp: done
152 2013-04-25 00:41:15 <urlshell65> jchp: but still the same error
153 2013-04-25 00:41:18 <jchp> and: sudo yum install boost-devel
154 2013-04-25 00:41:26 <urlshell65> oh yeah
155 2013-04-25 00:41:48 <jchp> if that doesn't work install debian
156 2013-04-25 00:42:02 robbak_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
157 2013-04-25 00:42:08 <sipa> you need to build your own openssl on fedora, i think
158 2013-04-25 00:42:12 alfian has joined
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160 2013-04-25 00:42:26 robbak_ has joined
161 2013-04-25 00:42:41 <urlshell65> why is boost split into devel and regular package
162 2013-04-25 00:42:48 i2pRelay has joined
163 2013-04-25 00:43:06 <sipa> urlshell65: because one is only needed for running applications that use build
164 2013-04-25 00:43:08 [Author] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
165 2013-04-25 00:43:10 <sipa> eh, use boost
166 2013-04-25 00:43:18 <sipa> the other is needed to build those applications
167 2013-04-25 00:43:18 <jchp> most linux distros have source/headers in the dev/devel package to i dunno save space or something
168 2013-04-25 00:43:26 <sipa> yeah
169 2013-04-25 00:43:49 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: Yup. I'm mostly a fedora user.
170 2013-04-25 00:43:51 alfian has quit ()
171 2013-04-25 00:43:59 <HM2> nice distros like Arch just give you all the headers in every package
172 2013-04-25 00:44:01 <muhoo> ye don't want source headers on an embedded system, fwiw
173 2013-04-25 00:44:14 <muhoo> often, anyway. my beaglebone with angstrom has a full dev env tho
174 2013-04-25 00:44:27 <gmaxwell> bitcoin is really easily built on fedora, once you fix the openssl.
175 2013-04-25 00:44:47 Turks is now known as csc`
176 2013-04-25 00:44:47 <Luke-Jr> urlshell65: note *buntu and Gentoo at least have packages, so no need to build from source on those
177 2013-04-25 00:44:58 <jchp> is openssl different on fedora? are there weird patches that are applied?
178 2013-04-25 00:44:59 csc` is now known as Turks
179 2013-04-25 00:45:05 <muhoo> i couldn't get it to build on squeeze, had some issues on wheezy, got lazy and use the binaries
180 2013-04-25 00:45:14 * HM2 has a 400MB /usr/include, so doesn't see the advantage in *-devel packages on a desktop distro
181 2013-04-25 00:45:18 <urlshell65> Luke-Jr: it's strange why no fedora packages?
182 2013-04-25 00:45:31 <Luke-Jr> urlshell65: nobody uses Fedora (in comparison)? :p
183 2013-04-25 00:45:37 <gmaxwell> jchp: redhat completely removes ecc support from openssl because some ecc techniques are patented (not ones we use) and openssl doesn't have an option to just turn off those.
184 2013-04-25 00:45:50 <muhoo> HM2: general purpose distros like debian are used in a ridiculous array of systems, from servers to desktops to embedded, etc
185 2013-04-25 00:45:51 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: actually, ones we use included
186 2013-04-25 00:45:52 <gmaxwell> urlshell65: making a fedora package is hard because you must replace the openssl rpms.
187 2013-04-25 00:46:01 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: No sir absolutely not.
188 2013-04-25 00:46:09 <jchp> oh i see, that's especially odd because i have no problems in debian and they're notorious for being nutso strict about stuff like that
189 2013-04-25 00:46:15 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: signmessage..
190 2013-04-25 00:46:20 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: virtually all ECC patents are releated to performance enhancements on charcteristic 2 fields.
191 2013-04-25 00:46:26 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: No that isn't correct.
192 2013-04-25 00:46:28 <muhoo> also, back in the day, my 486 machine running debian potato sure had more disk space without /usr/include
193 2013-04-25 00:46:44 <HM2> debian needs to get out of "back in the day"
194 2013-04-25 00:46:58 <qwertyoruiop> DEBIAN WAKA FLOCKA FLAME
195 2013-04-25 00:47:01 <urlshell65> Without fedora won't the UEFI signed bootloader force windows on me
196 2013-04-25 00:47:02 <muhoo> hahaha
197 2013-04-25 00:47:04 <qwertyoruiop> is going to be next debian codename
198 2013-04-25 00:47:04 <qwertyoruiop> lol
199 2013-04-25 00:47:07 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I thought there was a patent we decided was probably invalid; and also why MtGox refuses to support the same signature format.. ?
200 2013-04-25 00:47:31 <muhoo> urlshell65: i am typing this on a debian UEFI machine that came with winbloze 8
201 2013-04-25 00:47:37 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I sent magical tux references for Y recovery which were >25 years old to magicaltux, and he never responded.
202 2013-04-25 00:47:47 paraipan has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
203 2013-04-25 00:47:57 <urlshell65> muhoo: which debian version
204 2013-04-25 00:48:01 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ok, but the patent does exist, regardless of whether it's valid, no? O.o
205 2013-04-25 00:48:01 <muhoo> urlshell65: wheezy
206 2013-04-25 00:48:26 i2pRelay has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
207 2013-04-25 00:48:32 <muhoo> nice system, i7, fast as hell, very energy efficient too
208 2013-04-25 00:48:42 Monopolyman has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
209 2013-04-25 00:48:55 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I'm not aware of a y recovery patent which would effect our field in any case.
210 2013-04-25 00:49:07 [Author] has joined
211 2013-04-25 00:49:31 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I wonder if it would make sense to send a patch to openssl to make the patent part alone optional then
212 2013-04-25 00:49:39 <Luke-Jr> or even just to fedora
213 2013-04-25 00:49:46 <phantomcircuit> lol that's even a question?
214 2013-04-25 00:49:59 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: good luck getting a patch through openssl.
215 2013-04-25 00:50:05 <Luke-Jr> >_<
216 2013-04-25 00:50:11 <gmaxwell> (for _anything_)
217 2013-04-25 00:50:22 <Luke-Jr> or we can just push sipa's EC replacement..
218 2013-04-25 00:50:47 i2pRelay has joined
219 2013-04-25 00:50:48 <urlshell65> gmaxwell: did you suceed building it on fedora?
220 2013-04-25 00:51:37 <sipa> Luke-Jr: push where?
221 2013-04-25 00:51:43 <Luke-Jr> sipa: mainline :P
222 2013-04-25 00:51:46 colintulloch has joined
223 2013-04-25 00:51:49 <Luke-Jr> push for merging it*
224 2013-04-25 00:51:51 <gmaxwell> urlshell65: sure I build bitcoin on fedora every day.
225 2013-04-25 00:51:56 colintulloch has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
226 2013-04-25 00:52:15 ColinT has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
227 2013-04-25 00:52:19 <sipa> Luke-Jr: not without more unit tests, and serious cryptographic review :)
228 2013-04-25 00:52:23 colintulloch has joined
229 2013-04-25 00:52:27 paraipan has joined
230 2013-04-25 00:53:43 <urlshell65> gmaxwell: what's the trick, I'm too lazy to find out myself
231 2013-04-25 00:54:16 Monopolyman has joined
232 2013-04-25 00:55:30 <gmaxwell> urlshell65: you need to replace openssl.
233 2013-04-25 00:55:30 <urlshell65> gmaxwell: http://pastie.org/7712470
234 2013-04-25 00:55:48 <gmaxwell> you don't even have the development headers installed.
235 2013-04-25 00:55:56 <gmaxwell> urlshell65: what version of fedora are you on?
236 2013-04-25 00:55:57 <lianj> sipa: why does it say 'Optimized C++ ECDSA verifier for secp256k1'
237 2013-04-25 00:56:14 <sipa> lianj: ha, because originally it was C++, and only a verifier :)
238 2013-04-25 00:56:21 <urlshell65> gmaxwell: 18 spherical cow
239 2013-04-25 00:56:31 <lianj> sipa: but now its c, thats nice!
240 2013-04-25 00:56:38 bitnumus has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
241 2013-04-25 00:56:55 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
242 2013-04-25 00:57:56 bitnumus has joined
243 2013-04-25 00:58:00 <BlueMatt> no one cares about non-constant minfees and memory-limited mempools?
244 2013-04-25 00:58:18 <gmaxwell> urlshell65: okay, I don't have openssl rpms for 18 yet.
245 2013-04-25 00:58:18 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
246 2013-04-25 00:58:32 * gmaxwell stabs bluematt
247 2013-04-25 00:58:39 LorenzoMoney has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
248 2013-04-25 00:58:46 <BlueMatt> :)
249 2013-04-25 00:58:51 i2pRelay has joined
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253 2013-04-25 00:59:37 <urlshell65> gmaxwell: replace openssl with what
254 2013-04-25 01:00:10 systemParanoid has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
255 2013-04-25 01:00:12 <gmaxwell> urlshell65: a copy that doesn't have ECC removed.
256 2013-04-25 01:00:25 <urlshell65> gmaxwell: build from source?
257 2013-04-25 01:01:08 <gmaxwell> you should be able to do an rpmbuild rebuild of the srpm I have for fedora 17 https://people.xiph.org/~greg/openssl/
258 2013-04-25 01:01:13 <urlshell65> gmaxwell: how to find out whether it's already installed?
259 2013-04-25 01:01:14 MobGod has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
260 2013-04-25 01:01:18 colintulloch has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
261 2013-04-25 01:01:43 <gmaxwell> urlshell65: it is already installed but it has had part of it removed you need to replace it with one that hasn't.
262 2013-04-25 01:01:50 <gmaxwell> Sorry, I don't have time right now to walk you through it. :(
263 2013-04-25 01:01:55 <urlshell65> gmaxwell: ok
264 2013-04-25 01:02:05 LorenzoMoney1 is now known as LorenzoMoney
265 2013-04-25 01:02:13 Belxjander has quit (Quit: Sayonara)
266 2013-04-25 01:02:14 <HM2> seems the bitcoin wiki is down
267 2013-04-25 01:02:18 <urlshell65> gmaxwell: I understand it needs to remove files first
268 2013-04-25 01:02:27 <urlshell65> gmaxwell: yum remove ?
269 2013-04-25 01:02:27 NZGlitch has quit ()
270 2013-04-25 01:02:35 LorenzoMoney is now known as Guest98713
271 2013-04-25 01:02:54 <BlueMatt> HM2: WE KNOW!
272 2013-04-25 01:03:01 Guest98713 has left ()
273 2013-04-25 01:03:17 <HM2> sorry. jeez
274 2013-04-25 01:03:19 <HM2> :P
275 2013-04-25 01:03:25 <BlueMatt> :)
276 2013-04-25 01:03:50 <HM2> Google cache has the whole thing anyway
277 2013-04-25 01:04:23 LorenzoMoney1 has joined
278 2013-04-25 01:05:31 LorenzoMoney1 has quit (Client Quit)
279 2013-04-25 01:05:54 <Luke-Jr> once upon a time, wiki backups were public.. :P
280 2013-04-25 01:06:26 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
281 2013-04-25 01:06:28 <BlueMatt> once upon a time, the wiki had semi-dedicated admin(s)
282 2013-04-25 01:06:37 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, they might still be
283 2013-04-25 01:06:49 <phantomcircuit> you just gotta know where they are
284 2013-04-25 01:06:55 i2pRelay has joined
285 2013-04-25 01:06:57 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: too bad nobody competent has time :<
286 2013-04-25 01:07:13 <BlueMatt> meh, their time is better spent elsewhere
287 2013-04-25 01:07:28 D34TH has quit (Quit: Leaving)
288 2013-04-25 01:07:52 <phantomcircuit> lol
289 2013-04-25 01:08:05 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, it's not hard to keep a wiki up/running
290 2013-04-25 01:08:13 <phantomcircuit> the main time sink is dealing with spam usually
291 2013-04-25 01:08:17 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: careful with 'admins' people will assume you mean admin privs on the wiki.. which don't help with it being down.
292 2013-04-25 01:08:20 <vrs> wouldn't adminning the wiki mostly mean "follow mediawiki updates"?
293 2013-04-25 01:08:24 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: we solved spam completely.
294 2013-04-25 01:08:32 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yeah i know
295 2013-04-25 01:08:48 <phantomcircuit> lol
296 2013-04-25 01:08:49 <phantomcircuit> the title
297 2013-04-25 01:08:53 <phantomcircuit> "Bitcoin has a problem"
298 2013-04-25 01:08:53 <vrs> (and "know your way around mediawiki"?)
299 2013-04-25 01:08:55 <phantomcircuit> epic
300 2013-04-25 01:09:13 Belxjander has joined
301 2013-04-25 01:09:38 <phantomcircuit> vrs, keeping up with mediawiki updates is more of a hastle than you'd think
302 2013-04-25 01:09:59 <vrs> yeah mediawiki is a mess
303 2013-04-25 01:10:06 <HM2> it's a PHP webapp
304 2013-04-25 01:10:11 <HM2> every PHP webapp is a mess
305 2013-04-25 01:10:18 <vrs> hell it's so big they now script it with lua
306 2013-04-25 01:10:35 <HM2> lol awesome
307 2013-04-25 01:10:40 <gmaxwell> vrs: lua is a major improvement over the prior accidentally turing complete template system.
308 2013-04-25 01:10:43 <Luke-Jr> it also requires MySQL
309 2013-04-25 01:10:50 <vrs> gaaaah that template system
310 2013-04-25 01:11:06 <petertodd> BlueMatt: looking at it, the skip checking inputs makes things less awkward in my code for one, thanks for thinking that through
311 2013-04-25 01:11:11 <vrs> that might have been my first turing complete language btw... I remember trying to figure out recursion in it
312 2013-04-25 01:11:31 <saracen> HM2: Not every PHP webapp is a mess. Just most of them :)
313 2013-04-25 01:12:20 <BlueMatt> petertodd: why it was there in the first place isnt entirely clear....
314 2013-04-25 01:12:39 <Luke-Jr> saracen: I'd argue that webapps are by definition a mess ;)
315 2013-04-25 01:12:41 <BlueMatt> (it also is assert()'d later so.....)
316 2013-04-25 01:12:44 <HM2> saracen: you've learned of a fabled non-messy PHP app?
317 2013-04-25 01:13:03 <petertodd> BlueMatt: I think there may be some edge cases with copying wallets when you delete the blockchain data
318 2013-04-25 01:13:17 <phantomcircuit> shrug
319 2013-04-25 01:13:28 <phantomcircuit> php can be reasonable if you're building a once off setup
320 2013-04-25 01:13:30 <saracen> HM2: Well, I guess I agree with Luke-Jr. They're all kind of messy. But modern PHP + frameworks aren't too dissimilar to enterprisey java webapps
321 2013-04-25 01:13:42 <phantomcircuit> if you ever expect anybody to modify it you're out of your mind
322 2013-04-25 01:13:48 splnkr has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
323 2013-04-25 01:13:53 <Luke-Jr> I've *never* seen a non-mess Java webapp.
324 2013-04-25 01:13:57 GlitchNZ has joined
325 2013-04-25 01:14:05 <phantomcircuit> lol java webapp
326 2013-04-25 01:14:08 <Luke-Jr> but then, if it wasn't a complete mess, I might not have noticed it was Java
327 2013-04-25 01:14:22 <phantomcircuit> there's a certain part of bofa's website that still crashes when i try to use it
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330 2013-04-25 01:14:36 <phantomcircuit> java stack trace with like 6 third party components
331 2013-04-25 01:14:39 <phantomcircuit> lol java
332 2013-04-25 01:14:47 <saracen> Well, given competent developers that understand separation, and you know, didnt just guess MVC from RoR's attempt - at least it's less messy because it has a rigid structure
333 2013-04-25 01:14:48 LorenzoMoney1 has joined
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336 2013-04-25 01:16:09 <BlueMatt> petertodd: even given that there is no reason for it...if a tx is rejected there it will be readded later, and it could be a privacy leak and...
337 2013-04-25 01:16:10 <ngc0202> Is someone working on something where one can speed up initial confirmation of a specific transaction?
338 2013-04-25 01:16:24 urlshell65 has quit (Quit: leaving)
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340 2013-04-25 01:17:15 <petertodd> BlueMatt: hmm, nah, I don't think it matters either way: rebroadcasting is separate
341 2013-04-25 01:18:08 <BlueMatt> petertodd: no, the /only/ place not checking inputs was used was when reaccepting the inputs to a wallet txn (which may itself, be a wallet txn)
342 2013-04-25 01:18:13 <BlueMatt> it makes little sense...
343 2013-04-25 01:18:52 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
344 2013-04-25 01:19:14 <petertodd> BlueMatt: right, yeah, might be something where looking back in git history illuminates things, but I'm confident you're right. I've had tx's rejected from the mempool but in my wallet before due to non-std transactions, and nothing bad seems to happen...
345 2013-04-25 01:20:52 <BlueMatt> petertodd: true, but Im lazy and the code as written just looks so obviously stupid...
346 2013-04-25 01:20:59 TradeFortress has joined
347 2013-04-25 01:21:07 <BlueMatt> (and elsewhere in mempool it does an assert() that /should/ break in this case
348 2013-04-25 01:21:12 <BlueMatt> iirc
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356 2013-04-25 01:30:32 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, btw the rebroadcasting code is hilariously slow with wallets that have a lot of transactions and even a modest number of transactions which should be rebroadcast
357 2013-04-25 01:31:02 i2pRelay has joined
358 2013-04-25 01:31:08 <phantomcircuit> i would fix it but it's honestly easier to just use more than 1 bitcoind
359 2013-04-25 01:31:29 <BlueMatt> the wallet code is hilariously slow for wallets with lots of transactions period
360 2013-04-25 01:32:09 <phantomcircuit> most of it isn't that bad, but the rebroadcast stuff ends up doing a cartesian join against all the transactions in the wallet and all the transactions in the blockchain
361 2013-04-25 01:32:26 <phantomcircuit> of course the transactions in the blockchain thing is an index so it's fast
362 2013-04-25 01:32:27 <phantomcircuit> but still
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402 2013-04-25 02:01:26 <gmaxwell> In other news, I see in #tor-dev (OFTC) that they're working on getting tor & tor browser bundle compiled via gitian.
403 2013-04-25 02:02:15 <HM2> awesome
404 2013-04-25 02:02:40 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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406 2013-04-25 02:03:36 <nsh> tor is for criminals
407 2013-04-25 02:03:56 <nsh> (satire)
408 2013-04-25 02:05:08 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
409 2013-04-25 02:06:03 <gmaxwell> (It's useful for us because it might mean more people fixing gitian bugs, and perhaps more people doing gitian builds of bitcoin)
410 2013-04-25 02:07:07 rowit has joined
411 2013-04-25 02:09:33 canooon has joined
412 2013-04-25 02:10:10 <HM2> gmaxwell: who created gitian?
413 2013-04-25 02:10:16 <Luke-Jr> devrandom
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424 2013-04-25 02:17:01 <Diablo-D3> lol
425 2013-04-25 02:17:25 <Diablo-D3> I love the hypocrisy in this community
426 2013-04-25 02:17:45 <Diablo-D3> I tell the truth about BFL, get in trouble, Luke-Jr lies about asicminer, nothing happens
427 2013-04-25 02:17:52 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: seriously? AWESOME!
428 2013-04-25 02:18:18 * BlueMatt really hopes they done spent forever doing it (which is very possible)
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439 2013-04-25 02:26:35 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: you could hop in #tor-dev and help them out if you like. They seemed to be having some problems making firefox builds determinstic.
440 2013-04-25 02:26:47 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
441 2013-04-25 02:27:14 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: oh gawd, Im sure they are...I'd love to, though I have an exam tomorrow morning :(
442 2013-04-25 02:27:17 i2pRelay has joined
443 2013-04-25 02:27:42 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ehh, there is one person there
444 2013-04-25 02:28:30 <saracen> bah, the mention of "exam". You've broken my concentration on procrastination :(
445 2013-04-25 02:28:34 <BlueMatt> ahh, oftc
446 2013-04-25 02:29:33 <BlueMatt> you're welcome :)
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453 2013-04-25 02:33:51 <etotheipi_> sipa: how much trouble did you have getting leveldb working on windows?
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466 2013-04-25 02:41:22 <saivann> BlueMatt : The website is not updated correctly anymore. The github API returns "403 Forbidden" and causes FTBFS only on the dedicated server, most probably because we spam them since we don't use their webhook thing anymore.
467 2013-04-25 02:41:44 <jspilman> interesting blog post from the guys behind Convergence pretty negative (I guess not surprisingly) on DNSSEC: http://www.thoughtcrime.org/blog/ssl-and-the-future-of-authenticity/
468 2013-04-25 02:42:01 <saivann> BlueMatt : I can contact github to ask them to remove us of their blacklist, and adapt the script to only build with jekyll if it detects a new commit. What do you think of that?
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476 2013-04-25 02:43:43 <BlueMatt> saivann: ask tcatm? I dunno much about how that vm actually works, I just run the vm host
477 2013-04-25 02:43:54 <jspilman> if their concerns are valid, does (eventual) DNSSEC support in Payment Protocol really solving anything?
478 2013-04-25 02:43:58 <saivann> BlueMatt : Ok
479 2013-04-25 02:43:58 Ashaman has joined
480 2013-04-25 02:44:15 <saivann> tcatm : ping
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495 2013-04-25 02:54:08 <saivann> tcatm : I will be away, but I contacted github. Most probably that we'll be able to know if any change in the script is required from their answer.
496 2013-04-25 02:54:29 Azetab has joined
497 2013-04-25 02:55:00 <BlueMatt> I know there is an automatic limit for api calls per time, though
498 2013-04-25 02:55:12 <BlueMatt> I was under the impression the thing polled every 15 minutes or something, though?
499 2013-04-25 02:55:20 <BlueMatt> (isnt that what we guessed from vm cpu usage?)
500 2013-04-25 02:55:23 <BlueMatt> or was it 5?
501 2013-04-25 02:55:42 fiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
502 2013-04-25 02:55:50 <BlueMatt> saivann: ^
503 2013-04-25 02:56:14 <saivann> BlueMatt : 15 minutes, and it worked for a long time. It stopped working only today
504 2013-04-25 02:56:31 <BlueMatt> strange...whatever Ill let you do it then
505 2013-04-25 02:56:53 <lianj> polling? why not using their webhook feature?
506 2013-04-25 02:57:00 <saivann> My last commit is 11 hours ago.. so it seems like we are not temporarily banned
507 2013-04-25 02:57:29 <BlueMatt> lianj: because...lazy?
508 2013-04-25 02:57:38 <saivann> lianj : I think they were using it before, but it stopped working properly right before the chain fork event
509 2013-04-25 02:58:13 <lianj> saivann: they changed their allowed ips, other than that it works pretty stable. at least for me
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513 2013-04-25 02:58:56 <saivann> lianj : I don't have access to this anyway as I only have pull access to the repository, no admin access
514 2013-04-25 02:59:22 i2pRelay has joined
515 2013-04-25 02:59:23 <lianj> ah ok
516 2013-04-25 02:59:37 <saivann> But I remember someone saying there "github screwed their APIs.."
517 2013-04-25 02:59:38 rowit has joined
518 2013-04-25 03:00:28 <lianj> not really, the webhooks still work fine, you just have to fetch their allowed src ips from https://api.github.com/meta now. but anyhowâ¦
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520 2013-04-25 03:01:51 <saivann> lianj : In any case, that sounds less hackish to work with their API. But I let tcatm looking into this. Meanwhile, perhaps github will un-blacklist us.
521 2013-04-25 03:02:15 <lianj> they blocked you from doing too much git fetch ?
522 2013-04-25 03:02:50 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
523 2013-04-25 03:02:54 <saivann> lianj : in /var/log/syslog, we have a bunch of 403 forbidden errors from github
524 2013-04-25 03:03:04 <saivann> jekyll fails to build due to this
525 2013-04-25 03:03:23 <lianj> aw
526 2013-04-25 03:03:24 franl has quit (Quit: O Elbereth! Gilthoniel! We still remember ...)
527 2013-04-25 03:03:39 <saivann> We call this API to create the contributors list : https://api.github.com/repos/bitcoin/bitcoin/contributors
528 2013-04-25 03:03:48 <saivann> That is the one that is not working anymore
529 2013-04-25 03:04:24 <saivann> (git clone still works fine)
530 2013-04-25 03:05:05 <lianj> maybe just do `git shortlog -s -n` instead
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535 2013-04-25 03:08:26 <saivann> lianj : The contributors list is for the bitcoin-qt project, so we can't extract contributors from the git log of the bitcoin.org website
536 2013-04-25 03:09:07 <lianj> ah, makes sense
537 2013-04-25 03:09:12 <saivann> Otherwise it would have been nice :-)
538 2013-04-25 03:11:46 * Luke-Jr lightly pushes to include all bitcoin projects in the list
539 2013-04-25 03:11:55 RBecker is now known as rbecker
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541 2013-04-25 03:13:03 <petertodd> yes, that list has some weird effects, like how relatively highly ranked I am on it compared to other much more deserving people
542 2013-04-25 03:13:20 <petertodd> or even people listed as core developers...
543 2013-04-25 03:13:25 * BlueMatt isnt sure that list belongs there
544 2013-04-25 03:14:20 <petertodd> well, I like the core dev list for a lot of reasons, including it makes it easy to figure out who to contact about a security hole
545 2013-04-25 03:14:32 MobGod has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
546 2013-04-25 03:14:32 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: there is a security mailing list
547 2013-04-25 03:14:38 <BlueMatt> the whole development tab is very satoshi-centric, which seems out of place on the new site
548 2013-04-25 03:14:44 <petertodd> yes, but that's not obvious to an outsider
549 2013-04-25 03:14:55 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
550 2013-04-25 03:14:56 <Luke-Jr> perhaps that should be addressed.
551 2013-04-25 03:15:10 <petertodd> explicit instructions on responsible disclosure could be nice
552 2013-04-25 03:15:24 <petertodd> gavin mentioned it with my nLockTime thing a few months back
553 2013-04-25 03:15:27 i2pRelay has joined
554 2013-04-25 03:16:06 xenesis has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
555 2013-04-25 03:16:12 * BlueMatt votes for retitling "Developers" to "Bitcoin-Qt Developers" or equivalent
556 2013-04-25 03:16:47 <petertodd> oh, actually, I vote for s/Developers/Core Developers/ - it's the most obvious thing to do
557 2013-04-25 03:16:51 <saivann> Aren't we always saying "Core developers"?
558 2013-04-25 03:16:54 <BlueMatt> that works
559 2013-04-25 03:16:58 <BlueMatt> go for it
560 2013-04-25 03:17:02 <saivann> Will do
561 2013-04-25 03:17:15 <BlueMatt> same with Contributors, probably
562 2013-04-25 03:17:39 <saivann> Core contributors?
563 2013-04-25 03:18:13 <petertodd> no, that I would say 'Bitcoin-QT contributors'
564 2013-04-25 03:18:16 <BlueMatt> or Bitcoin-Qt contributors
565 2013-04-25 03:18:30 <petertodd> I see 'Core Developers' implying some amount of authority on the overall direction of bitcoin
566 2013-04-25 03:19:19 <BlueMatt> ack
567 2013-04-25 03:19:19 bitit has joined
568 2013-04-25 03:19:30 <Luke-Jr> seems nobody knows what "Core developers" means these days
569 2013-04-25 03:19:32 <saivann> Noted
570 2013-04-25 03:19:34 <saracen> Regarding the API link not working, the ban should only be temporary no, like, a day?
571 2013-04-25 03:19:36 <saivann> Indeed
572 2013-04-25 03:19:53 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: just what petertodd said
573 2013-04-25 03:20:01 * Luke-Jr votes nix the whole manual-names list and just order commit authors to all bitcoin projects
574 2013-04-25 03:20:15 <saivann> saracen : I've been banned temporarily some times when I was aggressively working on the website. But these were 5 minutes ban. Presently, we are banned since 11 hours.
575 2013-04-25 03:20:41 <petertodd> But that's weird too - look at my commits, a bunch of one line documentation changes, and then some really fundemental one line changes, that get rejected. :P
576 2013-04-25 03:20:43 GRSC has joined
577 2013-04-25 03:21:11 <petertodd> I think the consensus on the current 'core dev' list is fine, although, who the !@#$ is Nils...
578 2013-04-25 03:21:21 <Luke-Jr> tcatm
579 2013-04-25 03:21:22 <BlueMatt> tcatm is nils
580 2013-04-25 03:21:37 <BlueMatt> not that he does much coding anymore...
581 2013-04-25 03:21:54 <saivann> The contributors plugin is actually made by tcatm and I'm not so got with ruby.. So I can try to change something if required, but I might lose a lot of time on this.
582 2013-04-25 03:22:03 <petertodd> ah, see the irc/github nickname/real name thing is confusing
583 2013-04-25 03:22:10 <BlueMatt> meh, probably not worth it
584 2013-04-25 03:22:23 TradeFortress has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
585 2013-04-25 03:22:23 <saivann> s/so got/so good/
586 2013-04-25 03:22:26 <BlueMatt> and if you start, Id bet it will be bikeshedded into oblivion ;)
587 2013-04-25 03:22:31 <Luke-Jr> I think I had a script to count commits globally..
588 2013-04-25 03:22:47 <BlueMatt> and the discussion of which projects to include/not would be......ugly
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590 2013-04-25 03:23:02 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: why exclude any? as long as we're just listing people, meh
591 2013-04-25 03:23:21 <saivann> Indeed, the real point I think is to show "Hay, a lot of contributors". And that is nice looking.
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600 2013-04-25 03:26:30 <Luke-Jr> oh, my script was actually counting active lines of code
601 2013-04-25 03:26:38 <Luke-Jr> and doesn't work with latest git :/
602 2013-04-25 03:26:50 <petertodd> and lines of code doesn't help much anyway
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604 2013-04-25 03:27:27 <BlueMatt> if you are adding a shitton of repos, just list people, no counts, ordered by name/username/random
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618 2013-04-25 03:36:25 <gmaxwell> petertodd: who _else_ is actively working on the system? It seems a bit honest to sort of imply these people aren't.
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620 2013-04-25 03:38:05 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Indeed. In fact, a good test would be to ask if they are contributing more to Bitcoin core development than me, and because I don't think of myself as a core developer, leave them off the list...
621 2013-04-25 03:38:36 <petertodd> All you have to do is watch IRC and it's pretty clear that the 'core dev' list is accurate
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623 2013-04-25 03:39:12 <saivann> BlueMatt : Uh, how do you type characters that requires to use the ALT key in your VM console?
624 2013-04-25 03:39:19 <petertodd> The only person who I might add to that list is Mike really - bloom filters/leveldb
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626 2013-04-25 03:39:28 <gmaxwell> saivann: yea, the point of the big list is "lots of people involved" ... if github isn't working we can get similar data from ohloh instead, https://www.ohloh.net/p/bitcoin/contributors?sort=latest_commit&time_span=12+months though their counting is a bit wonker that github's I think.
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629 2013-04-25 03:40:02 <BlueMatt> saivann: there should be a button with all the fancy cntl-alt-f1, cntl-alt-del combos, alt should work as-is other than that
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631 2013-04-25 03:40:33 <gmaxwell> petertodd: the leveldb code we have was not written by Mike, not that it matters, just obpedantry
632 2013-04-25 03:40:38 <saivann> gmaxwell : github just answered me that they now requires us to send a user-agent header. So I'm going to try first
633 2013-04-25 03:41:07 <saivann> BlueMatt : I actually requires to type a punctuation mark
634 2013-04-25 03:41:42 <saivann> And typing ALT produces characters on the screen, trying to use the arrows on the keyboard does the same
635 2013-04-25 03:41:54 <petertodd> gmaxwell: Ah, still. Anyway, no particular reason to change it. Like I said about security, I think the most useful part of having the core-dev list is knowing who can probably be trusted.
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639 2013-04-25 03:42:22 <BlueMatt> saivann: honestly, I have no idea, I usually avoid the vm console like the plague and get ssh setup first-thing...
640 2013-04-25 03:42:26 <petertodd> gmaxwell: The process for coming to consensus on patches is pretty good right now - if in part because it's slow.
641 2013-04-25 03:42:29 <BlueMatt> (but thats also because openjdk is broken)
642 2013-04-25 03:42:36 <saivann> BlueMatt: :)
643 2013-04-25 03:42:41 <saivann> Yes it lags a lot..
644 2013-04-25 03:43:06 * BlueMatt -> early sleep for early exams :P
645 2013-04-25 03:43:16 <gmaxwell> petertodd: our review levels are inadequate.
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647 2013-04-25 03:43:42 <petertodd> gmaxwell: sure, but that's a manpower, not process issue
648 2013-04-25 03:44:06 <gmaxwell> I agree the process basically works.
649 2013-04-25 03:44:57 <petertodd> It's not easy to get up to speed - I've been a hanger-on seriously for about a year and a half now, and I can't effectively review anything outside of the core blockchain rules really.
650 2013-04-25 03:45:26 <gmaxwell> I'm not quite sure how inadequate review is, because we do objectively find some serious bugs in review, and I think much of what we know we missed wouldn't be found by simply doubling the review.
651 2013-04-25 03:45:47 <gmaxwell> But I have a pretty strong impression that we're no better than right at the edge of adequacy.
652 2013-04-25 03:45:57 <petertodd> On the other hand, think of how little has actually changed.
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656 2013-04-25 03:47:08 <gmaxwell> or another point: I don't think our process works very well for large patches.
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659 2013-04-25 03:47:42 <Luke-Jr> or vice-versa..
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661 2013-04-25 03:47:51 <Luke-Jr> large patches are hard to review period, best avoid them
662 2013-04-25 03:48:34 <petertodd> We've got a bunch of them in the pipeline that are important. re-thinking mempool behavior, re-thinking the wallet, separating core and wallet...
663 2013-04-25 03:48:44 <petertodd> Let alone more speculative stuff
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665 2013-04-25 03:49:13 <gmaxwell> the wallet changes are at least partially breakable.. but yea, I was specifically thinking of the mempool behavior resulting in big hard to review attack exposed network behavior critical changes.
666 2013-04-25 03:49:28 <gmaxwell> Some of it is a bit hard to test too.
667 2013-04-25 03:49:56 <petertodd> FWIW my attempt at it is including at least some unittests, but equally I doubt it's going to lead to something mergable soon if ever
668 2013-04-25 03:50:03 <gmaxwell> E.g. our coin selection tests mostly check to make sure you haven't changed the coin selection behavior, and mostly only test a very small set of toy cases.
669 2013-04-25 03:50:41 <petertodd> We don't have good failsafes in the code too to check that fees are sane and txouts are going to sane places
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671 2013-04-25 03:51:22 <gmaxwell> perhaps that would make some of this easier to change.
672 2013-04-25 03:51:36 <petertodd> true
673 2013-04-25 03:51:46 <gmaxwell> I know thats why I've not made pull requests on things like dust sweeping. Changing that code gives me hives.
674 2013-04-25 03:52:05 <petertodd> indeed
675 2013-04-25 03:52:22 <petertodd> we *know* people use bitcoin-qt for txouts worth millions
676 2013-04-25 03:52:34 <wamatt> unittests are a great idea imo
677 2013-04-25 03:52:53 <gmaxwell> We have unit tests.
678 2013-04-25 03:53:11 <gmaxwell> That doesn't mean that they're all that good or complete or whatever.
679 2013-04-25 03:53:12 <lianj> yep, i like how bitcoind started trying to enforce testing over time. great job!
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691 2013-04-25 04:04:07 <wamatt> gmaxwell: cool. what framework do you use for testing?
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697 2013-04-25 04:10:04 <Luke-Jr> wamatt: boost
698 2013-04-25 04:10:17 <saivann> ... I highly recommand having SSH access to the jekyll console (or never shutdown the console).. I needed to simulate my keyboard with xdotool in order to login
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701 2013-04-25 04:11:51 <wamatt> ta luke. i want to play around with the code. does it matter if i pull it from SF or GH?
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703 2013-04-25 04:12:21 <Luke-Jr> wamatt: SF is no longer used except for releases
704 2013-04-25 04:13:03 <wamatt> k, sometimes project do repo mirroring so wanted to check first
705 2013-04-25 04:13:07 <wamatt> projects
706 2013-04-25 04:13:30 <wamatt> if i had a bitcoin for evey typo i mke â¦. :D
707 2013-04-25 04:13:43 mapppum has joined
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709 2013-04-25 04:14:51 <richcollins> anyone know what's up with https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/ ?
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716 2013-04-25 04:20:06 <Belxjander> richcollins: no idea... maybe the DDoS freaks are just trying to hammer everything?
717 2013-04-25 04:20:22 <richcollins> trying to read bitcoin-d docs
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821 2013-04-25 06:32:56 <saivann> tcatm : The website problem has been fixed. It was indeed the github API now requiring a User-Agent header that ruby 1.8 didn't generate automatically.
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825 2013-04-25 06:38:41 <tcatm> saivann: what was the Problem?
826 2013-04-25 06:39:28 <saivann> tcatm : The website was not updating anymore because the contributors.rb plugin always got a 403 error from github.
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837 2013-04-25 06:47:37 <dino__> Does anybody know of a Python library to talk to bitcoind?
838 2013-04-25 06:48:56 <amiller> dino__, use pynode and python-bitcoinlib
839 2013-04-25 06:49:07 <dino__> amiller, Thanks!
840 2013-04-25 06:49:31 <dino__> Also found bitcoin-python is that any good?
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846 2013-04-25 06:53:50 <amiller> dino__, hm, i think bitcoin-python is probably a better choice and way simpler
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848 2013-04-25 06:54:16 <dino__> amiller - thanks. It looks like it will do what I want.
849 2013-04-25 06:54:29 <dino__> Need to send a transaction, then monitor wallet for any incoming transactions.
850 2013-04-25 06:54:38 <dino__> Should be trivial with that library
851 2013-04-25 06:55:13 <amiller> hm
852 2013-04-25 06:55:25 <amiller> does the bitcoinrpc protocol let me longpoll and just wait for notifications that way
853 2013-04-25 06:57:53 <dino__> Not sure. May just have to query wallet every 30 seconds and check for new transactions. Its a pain, but would work
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894 2013-04-25 07:40:06 <coingenuity> sipa: non-canonical encodings?
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950 2013-04-25 08:25:13 <sipa> coingenuity: see my mail to the mailinglist about that
951 2013-04-25 08:25:52 <coingenuity> have a link handy, by chance?
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961 2013-04-25 08:32:51 <Lolcust> Hello! sipa - a small (possibly not very smart) question regarding your Ultraprune : if one uses it, has coins database, and retains only block headers and (for sheer paranoia) a few thousands "terminal" blocks (just to accomodate reorgs and whatnot, I s'pose), one should be for all practical intents as secure as if he was a "real full node" ?
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966 2013-04-25 08:36:34 <sipa> etotheipi_: quite some work, but it works now
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969 2013-04-25 08:38:44 <kronicd_> sipa: just read up on ultraprune, it is now in the client by default?
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971 2013-04-25 08:38:47 <kronicd_> well bitcoind anyhow
972 2013-04-25 08:40:27 <gmaxwell> Lolcust: you're confused, it doesn't prune anything.
973 2013-04-25 08:40:50 <sipa> kronicd_: i've stopped using that name as it does not prune
974 2013-04-25 08:40:53 <kronicd_> ah
975 2013-04-25 08:41:05 <gmaxwell> Lolcust: its behaviorally indistinguishable from the older software except for being much faster.
976 2013-04-25 08:41:24 <Lolcust> gmaxwell , I am aware that block pruning is not implemented
977 2013-04-25 08:41:29 <sipa> what ut does, is use a pruned _copy_ for almost all operations, so it is faster
978 2013-04-25 08:41:36 <kronicd_> are you aware of any branches/ports/efforts that do prune? I'm working on some applications where the 8GB blockchain is a significant hurdle
979 2013-04-25 08:41:49 <Lolcust> But IIRC sipa mentioned that it can be implemented (in the relevant git) hence my question
980 2013-04-25 08:41:50 <gmaxwell> kronicd_: why are you not using a SPV node?
981 2013-04-25 08:42:04 <sipa> it can indeed easily be implemented
982 2013-04-25 08:42:15 <kronicd_> gmaxwell: can SPV nodes still mine?
983 2013-04-25 08:42:21 <kronicd_> I was under the impression they could not
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986 2013-04-25 08:43:05 <gmaxwell> kronicd_: uh, can you elaborate on what your application is for controlling mining from a node that can't take 8gb storage?
987 2013-04-25 08:43:20 <Lolcust> well, hence my question - if it were implemented, but in a manner that retains the header and a few thousands most recent blocks (which makes sense - there may be a legitimate reorg after all ), would that be as "good" as "vanilla blockchain retention" ?
988 2013-04-25 08:43:21 Ashaman has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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990 2013-04-25 08:43:26 <gmaxwell> Eventually the coins database will be that bigâ thats an awful tight constraint.
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992 2013-04-25 08:43:43 <kronicd_> gmaxwell: I've got some boxes with 5 GPUs each, quite nice. I'm adding some more and dont want to add hard disks :P
993 2013-04-25 08:43:55 <kronicd_> wanting to run off onboard flash, ideally a UEFI module
994 2013-04-25 08:44:00 <gmaxwell> Lolcust: if you are unable to handle a reorg of size X and one of size X happens then your network will fragment and never converge again.
995 2013-04-25 08:44:22 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
996 2013-04-25 08:44:28 <sipa> but this hasn't happened because of some roadblocks (how to make sure new nodes still can find those that do have the historical chain still)
997 2013-04-25 08:44:33 <Lolcust> well, we can reasonably assume that a reorg say 2000 blocks deep is not something that is supposed to happen naturally, gmaxwell
998 2013-04-25 08:44:42 <gmaxwell> kronicd_: mining is not normally run on the same system running bitcoind. You generally have one copy of bitcoind that support some large number of systems.
999 2013-04-25 08:44:53 i2pRelay has joined
1000 2013-04-25 08:44:55 <Lolcust> hey, you know what
1001 2013-04-25 08:45:05 <sipa> Lolcust: you need to store block index, utxo set, and recent blocks and undo data
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1003 2013-04-25 08:45:16 <sipa> Lolcust: the utxo set also grows
1004 2013-04-25 08:45:28 <kronicd_> gmaxwell: I am aware, but I don't mind riding averages and I can't always guarentee they'll be able to connect to eachother.. I'm starting to realise this sounds increidbly dodgy
1005 2013-04-25 08:45:33 <kronicd_> it isnt though :P
1006 2013-04-25 08:45:39 <Lolcust> sipa well, it grows - but it is probably smaller than "entire chain, from the beginning of history".
1007 2013-04-25 08:45:47 <sipa> absolutely
1008 2013-04-25 08:46:07 <Lolcust> Also, there are hardcoded checkpoints right ? you can retain full blocks up to most recent hardcoded checkpoint
1009 2013-04-25 08:46:11 <gmaxwell> kronicd_: then have them connect to some remote poolâ if they can't connect to the network then they can't mine in any case.
1010 2013-04-25 08:46:20 <Lolcust> and skeletonize the rest down to headers
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1012 2013-04-25 08:46:48 <kronicd_> gmaxwell: fair call, I guess the question I was mainly looking at was "is there a way to reduce blockchain size on a bitcoind and still mine" I'm guessing the answer is "not really" at the moment
1013 2013-04-25 08:46:57 <sipa> Lolcust: there is no skeletonization... you need all block headers and the utxo set
1014 2013-04-25 08:47:32 <sipa> Lolcust: apart from that, you need full blocks for reorganisation, rescanning wallets or serving to other nodes
1015 2013-04-25 08:47:35 <gmaxwell> kronicd_: the answer is to use a remote pool, and otherwise no.
1016 2013-04-25 08:47:49 <kronicd_> understood
1017 2013-04-25 08:48:16 <sipa> coingenuity: eh let's see
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1019 2013-04-25 08:48:42 <coingenuity> appreciate it sipa
1020 2013-04-25 08:48:50 <coingenuity> rebuilding my tx systems again
1021 2013-04-25 08:48:54 <Lolcust> "skeletonization" as "if block pruning is implemented, (and relevant option is set), don't store full blocks "below" most recent lock-in". That would prevent block pruning from accidentally messing with legitimate reorgs, since well, you can't reorg away a hardcoded checkpoint
1022 2013-04-25 08:49:06 <Lolcust> rescanning for wallets might be a problem tho
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1024 2013-04-25 08:49:23 <kronicd_> I'm going to look into it a bit more, mainly because I can't understand (at this point) why one couldn't mine with the last few hundred blocks + a list of unspent outputs
1025 2013-04-25 08:49:34 <kronicd_> I'm sure there is a good reason that is beyond my understanding at the moment though
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1027 2013-04-25 08:50:12 <sipa> Lolcust: i hope we can drop checkpoints at some point
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1029 2013-04-25 08:50:18 <gmaxwell> kronicd_: because software hasn't been written for that.
1030 2013-04-25 08:50:28 <sipa> coingenuity: http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg01965.html
1031 2013-04-25 08:50:39 <coingenuity> sipa: thanks very much!
1032 2013-04-25 08:50:48 <sipa> coingenuity: last mail in the thread gives the exact new rules
1033 2013-04-25 08:51:10 <kronicd_> gmaxwell: thats fine, I can code and am willing to play with it. I was talking about technical reasons why it couldn't work, rather than that it hasn't been done
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1035 2013-04-25 08:51:35 <coingenuity> perfect, i will give it a good read
1036 2013-04-25 08:51:43 <coingenuity> thanks much :D
1037 2013-04-25 08:52:00 <sipa> Lolcust: what i mean is: it's not that if you prune a block, you retain some reduced form of it
1038 2013-04-25 08:52:07 <gmaxwell> kronicd_: the software is written now to make it possible, prior to 0.8 it was deeply impossible because of how the validation was performed.
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1040 2013-04-25 08:52:49 <sipa> Lolcust: the reducdd parts (headers and utxos) are always maintained separately
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1042 2013-04-25 08:52:57 <gmaxwell> kronicd_: but basically no one but skechy computer use theieves normally cares about non-pooled mining or at least is unable to run their own mining server....
1043 2013-04-25 08:53:09 <Lolcust> Well, I kinda understood that you still keep headers
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1045 2013-04-25 08:53:25 <sipa> Lolcust: sure
1046 2013-04-25 08:53:30 <Lolcust> I thought utxo though are something you have to "read out" of the full chain and put in a separate DB
1047 2013-04-25 08:54:02 <sipa> i mean... when you prune, you don't store anything that you wouldn't if you had the full block
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1049 2013-04-25 08:54:40 <sipa> utxo and undo data is built when you process/verify/connect the chain
1050 2013-04-25 08:54:42 <kronicd_> gmaxwell: tbqh regular pooled mining makes me uncomfortable (there are an alarmingly low number of nodes publishing blocks), and I'm looking towards the future in terms of disk usage. I do understand what you're saying and why the dodgy fellows would want something similar. I'm sure those guys just use bitcoind's hosted out of romania or something though
1051 2013-04-25 08:54:43 <Lolcust> So the process of using a "skeletonized" client would be "startup -> get full chain -> build utxo / update wallet / etc. -> prune blocks to depth "X" while retaining their headers
1052 2013-04-25 08:55:14 <sipa> just delete old blocks on the fly
1053 2013-04-25 08:55:16 <kronicd_> business mode criminals are much more likely to go with efficient quick solutions than try to dev something to solve an already solved issue
1054 2013-04-25 08:55:30 <Lolcust> sipa: ah, indeed. makes sense
1055 2013-04-25 08:55:38 <sipa> Lolcust: as i said, you always store the headers, whether you prune or no
1056 2013-04-25 08:55:45 <gmaxwell> kronicd_: if you can't take 8gb then you won't be able to mine in the future even with dropping the historical data.
1057 2013-04-25 08:56:03 <sipa> and you always maintain the unspent outputs, whether you prune or not
1058 2013-04-25 08:56:13 <kronicd_> gmaxwell: that is a damn good point.
1059 2013-04-25 08:57:16 <Lolcust> sipa yeah, that I understand. I just wondered whether prunning blocks to a given depth X would have any risks beyond not being able to handle reorgs of X+1 and not being able to feed other nodes blocks at below X
1060 2013-04-25 08:58:00 <Lolcust> kronicd_ pardon my... Ignorance, I guess... but what prevents you from just pointing your machinery at a pool ?
1061 2013-04-25 08:58:33 <sipa> Lolcust: rescanning
1062 2013-04-25 08:58:34 <gmaxwell> No thats it, thats the only distinction. Though those both have considerable implications. e.g. if too many nodes do it you won't be able to bootstrap a new node easily.
1063 2013-04-25 08:58:40 <gmaxwell> oh damn, stupid wallets.
1064 2013-04-25 08:58:45 <kronicd_> Lolcust: For large pools... I don't like pools, due to the low number of hosts actually pushing blocks
1065 2013-04-25 08:58:54 * gmaxwell puts brown paper bag on his head
1066 2013-04-25 08:58:56 <kronicd_> for this purpose, I could run a single bitcoind, I was just exploring other options
1067 2013-04-25 08:59:02 <gmaxwell> kronicd_: "pushing blocks"?
1068 2013-04-25 08:59:20 <kronicd_> gmaxwell: eh wrong usage of the lingo I guess. publishing blocks? :P
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1070 2013-04-25 08:59:37 <Lolcust> sipa ah, indeed. if wallet gets borked I'll need the full chain
1071 2013-04-25 08:59:42 <gmaxwell> I'm certantly in favor of fewer large poolsâ but p2pool is the sort of canonical answer there, though it doesn't address your unusual constraints.
1072 2013-04-25 08:59:54 <sipa> Lolcust: that's why i loke the spv model for wallets
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1075 2013-04-25 09:00:34 <sipa> Lolcust: especially with bloom filtering, it may actually be cheaper to have your wallet separately than built into the full nodr
1076 2013-04-25 09:00:34 <kronicd_> gmaxwell: I'm not overly worried about addressing anything. I'm just fiddling with it looking for solutions, they mine pointing at a bitcoind at the moment
1077 2013-04-25 09:00:44 <Lolcust> sipa could you link ? I was out of the coinloop for quite a while ?
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1080 2013-04-25 09:00:59 <sipa> Lolcust: bip37
1081 2013-04-25 09:01:05 <kronicd_> I've already learnt way more about bitcoin than I knew before by modifying the client and I'm still learning more
1082 2013-04-25 09:01:08 <kronicd_> its a good outcome.
1083 2013-04-25 09:01:49 <sipa> kronicd_: to answer your question: technically it is possible to have a pruning miner node, which retains headers, utxo and recent blocks/undo data only
1084 2013-04-25 09:03:32 <kronicd_> sipa: thanks, I couldnt figure out why that wouldnt be the case
1085 2013-04-25 09:04:19 <gmaxwell> I answered that above. :( < gmaxwell> kronicd_: the software is written now to make it possible,
1086 2013-04-25 09:04:29 <sipa> i missed that
1087 2013-04-25 09:04:37 <gmaxwell> apparently kronicd_ did too! :)
1088 2013-04-25 09:04:41 <gmaxwell> it's all good.
1089 2013-04-25 09:04:43 da2ce7 has joined
1090 2013-04-25 09:04:50 <kronicd_> I rmemeber reading it now, kinda just flew by though :P
1091 2013-04-25 09:05:22 darenthis has joined
1092 2013-04-25 09:05:28 <gmaxwell> I still don't know what you're doing to do when the utxo + headers + recent blocks is bigger than your storage that can't take 8gb (really?!) :)
1093 2013-04-25 09:05:50 <Graet> buy a 64gb usb stick?
1094 2013-04-25 09:05:53 <kronicd_> that's future kronicd's problem
1095 2013-04-25 09:05:55 <kronicd_> I hate that guy.
1096 2013-04-25 09:05:58 <Graet> prices are coming down ;)
1097 2013-04-25 09:06:36 <kronicd_> hrmm, right angled USB header --> USB port adapter would be cool
1098 2013-04-25 09:06:39 <kronicd_> wonder if anyone makes them
1099 2013-04-25 09:06:56 Duly has joined
1100 2013-04-25 09:07:02 <kronicd_> http://www.logicsupply.com/images/photos/adapters/AFAP-082USB_big.jpg
1101 2013-04-25 09:07:05 <kronicd_> yep. its a thing
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1116 2013-04-25 09:12:24 <Guest37484> so what happened all of a sudden with proportional payout?
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1136 2013-04-25 09:25:44 <Lolcust> sipa so, bloom filters would allow one to "rescan" a wallet from just utxo data ?
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1138 2013-04-25 09:26:38 <sipa> Lolcust: not at all
1139 2013-04-25 09:26:57 <sipa> Lolcust: they just allow the p2p connection to be filtered
1140 2013-04-25 09:27:08 <sipa> so you only receive transactions you're interested in
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1142 2013-04-25 09:27:37 <sipa> but it's still block data
1143 2013-04-25 09:27:48 <sipa> the utxo set doesn't contain transactions at all
1144 2013-04-25 09:29:32 <Lolcust> sipa Ah, IC. Thanks.
1145 2013-04-25 09:30:05 <sipa> the ironic part is that for large amounts of addresses the follow, this is potentially faster than a local rescan
1146 2013-04-25 09:30:36 <Lolcust> wait a moment - can't my wallet ballance be discerned from utxo set ? I mean, having the privkeys, I should be able to tell which of the yet-unspent outputs are spendable with my keys ?
1147 2013-04-25 09:30:45 <sipa> the balance can
1148 2013-04-25 09:30:52 <sipa> the history can't
1149 2013-04-25 09:31:08 <Lolcust> well, that's not even a problem really
1150 2013-04-25 09:31:19 <Lolcust> The use case for history-in-client is rather narrow IMO
1151 2013-04-25 09:31:50 <Lolcust> and someone who wants full accounting might be interested in shelling out for a few HDDs to keep the fullchain anyway
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1153 2013-04-25 09:32:07 <sipa> nobody should need the full blockchain to just maintain a wallet
1154 2013-04-25 09:32:10 <sipa> that's ridiculous
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1159 2013-04-25 09:34:31 <Lolcust> sipa well, the wallet and the capacity to rebuild your transaction history from day 1.
1160 2013-04-25 09:35:09 <Lolcust> Which can be more frugally achieved by (gasp) backupin the damn thing automatically :)
1161 2013-04-25 09:35:43 <Lolcust> like you would do with vanilla accounting software which ain't got a blockchain to piggyback on after a "bad event"
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1163 2013-04-25 09:38:23 <The_Fly> do i have any option other than processing the output of listtransactions to calculate the balance of a single address?
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1165 2013-04-25 09:38:51 <Luke-Jr> The_Fly: addresses don't have balances, wallets do
1166 2013-04-25 09:39:10 <The_Fly> ok...
1167 2013-04-25 09:39:26 <The_Fly> i had feared as much
1168 2013-04-25 09:39:50 <Luke-Jr> while you can define a conceptual "address balance", it doesn't work that way and doesn't make sense to abstract it that way
1169 2013-04-25 09:39:51 <The_Fly> i think the confusion was that blockchain.info etc. will display a final balance
1170 2013-04-25 09:40:00 <Luke-Jr> bc.i is full of bad misinformation :/
1171 2013-04-25 09:40:05 <The_Fly> :) k
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1173 2013-04-25 09:40:43 <The_Fly> right, i see... so you send from accounts
1174 2013-04-25 09:40:47 caput has joined
1175 2013-04-25 09:41:03 <Luke-Jr> eh, accounts are another whole layer of abstraction <.<
1176 2013-04-25 09:41:05 i2pRelay has joined
1177 2013-04-25 09:41:11 <Luke-Jr> on top of wallets
1178 2013-04-25 09:41:18 <The_Fly> sure, but i can get an account balance
1179 2013-04-25 09:41:22 <Luke-Jr> yes
1180 2013-04-25 09:41:27 <Luke-Jr> account balances can also be negative
1181 2013-04-25 09:41:40 <The_Fly> they can?
1182 2013-04-25 09:41:44 <Luke-Jr> indeed
1183 2013-04-25 09:41:50 <The_Fly> if you have unconfirmed incoming tx?
1184 2013-04-25 09:41:54 <Luke-Jr> accounts are mere beancounters
1185 2013-04-25 09:42:05 <Luke-Jr> if another account is positive enough to account for the negative
1186 2013-04-25 09:42:13 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1187 2013-04-25 09:42:22 <kronicd_> o_0
1188 2013-04-25 09:42:42 <Luke-Jr> move('a', 'b', 100) <-- this will, in a new empty wallet, result in account 'a' being -100 BTC, and account 'b' being +100 BTC
1189 2013-04-25 09:43:00 <The_Fly> i see, thanks
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1193 2013-04-25 09:45:56 <The_Fly> so best to rely on some external mechanism to keep track of a user balance, say
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1198 2013-04-25 09:56:33 <jgm> Has there been any work looking at protecting wallets with OTPs (YubiKey or similar)? Was thinking that the OTP could be used to generate one of the signatures in a MULTISIG transaction
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1201 2013-04-25 09:57:28 <gmaxwell> jgm: yubikey doesn't do the right stuff for that, alas.
1202 2013-04-25 09:57:52 <gmaxwell> there is work people have done on 'hardware wallets' to basically address that idea, you can search the forums.
1203 2013-04-25 10:00:08 <jgm> gmaxwell: shame, was hoping for a more generic solution. Hardware wallets are great, but was thinking more for general desktop/mobile use
1204 2013-04-25 10:00:31 <gmaxwell> jgm: who says a hardware wallet isn't a little yubikey like fob?
1205 2013-04-25 10:00:41 <gmaxwell> (though if it doesn't have a display there are some attacks you cannot defeat)
1206 2013-04-25 10:01:39 psiborg has joined
1207 2013-04-25 10:02:14 <jgm> Yeah, more reading on this one required. Thanks
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1210 2013-04-25 10:04:55 <The_Fly> walletnotify is working nicely, does it stop when confirmations >=6 does anyone know?
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1212 2013-04-25 10:05:10 <The_Fly> would be strange to keep notifying beyond that
1213 2013-04-25 10:05:20 <Luke-Jr> does it notify for every confirm? O.o
1214 2013-04-25 10:05:34 <The_Fly> it is doing so here
1215 2013-04-25 10:05:44 <Luke-Jr> ugly :|
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1217 2013-04-25 10:06:01 <Luke-Jr> I'd think if someone wanted to do something every confirm, they'd use blocknotify
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1219 2013-04-25 10:06:14 <The_Fly> yeah a bit... would you propose calls to gettransaction for open tranaction upon each blocknotify
1220 2013-04-25 10:06:24 <The_Fly> *transactions
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1222 2013-04-25 10:07:22 <sipa> The_Fly: that would surprise me a lot
1223 2013-04-25 10:07:29 <sipa> blocknotify will notify at every block
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1225 2013-04-25 10:07:49 <Luke-Jr> The_Fly: personally, I'd hit listtransactions on blocknotify ;)
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1227 2013-04-25 10:07:56 <sipa> but walletnotify should only notify when 1) first seen on the network 2) getting its first confirmation
1228 2013-04-25 10:08:04 <The_Fly> it doesn't
1229 2013-04-25 10:08:09 <The_Fly> i got two
1230 2013-04-25 10:08:10 <The_Fly> on testnet
1231 2013-04-25 10:08:25 <The_Fly> and im waiting to see if another comes on the next confirmation
1232 2013-04-25 10:08:43 <The_Fly> < sipa> blocknotify will notify at every block
1233 2013-04-25 10:08:56 <sipa> walletnotify being called twice is possible for the same transaction
1234 2013-04-25 10:09:05 <sipa> once when first seen, once when confirmed
1235 2013-04-25 10:09:15 <The_Fly> okay
1236 2013-04-25 10:09:29 <The_Fly> and then i have to poll until 6 to trust the payment?
1237 2013-04-25 10:09:39 <sipa> just check at blocknotifys
1238 2013-04-25 10:09:45 <The_Fly> thats what i was asking
1239 2013-04-25 10:10:09 <sipa> that's not really polling, but indeed
1240 2013-04-25 10:10:32 <The_Fly> confusion was that i was not confident that blocks were tied to confirmations
1241 2013-04-25 10:10:38 <The_Fly> so no need to poll :)
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1243 2013-04-25 10:10:58 <The_Fly> quick final question on listtransactions
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1245 2013-04-25 10:11:31 <The_Fly> does that filter transactions after they exceed 6 confirmations?
1246 2013-04-25 10:11:35 <sipa> no
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1248 2013-04-25 10:11:41 <The_Fly> so it will get fairly large
1249 2013-04-25 10:11:48 <The_Fly> the output
1250 2013-04-25 10:12:12 <The_Fly> necessitating individual calls to gettransaction
1251 2013-04-25 10:12:23 <The_Fly> for all "open" transactions
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1253 2013-04-25 10:13:09 <The_Fly> which is not necessarily a bad thing...
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1255 2013-04-25 10:13:20 <The_Fly> just would be nicer to get it all in a single call
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1258 2013-04-25 10:15:00 <The_Fly> perhaps a maxconf on listtransactions would achieve this?
1259 2013-04-25 10:15:02 <Luke-Jr> The_Fly: listtransactions arguments filter it..
1260 2013-04-25 10:15:32 <The_Fly> only by account/count/from
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1262 2013-04-25 10:16:17 <Luke-Jr> The_Fly: [from] is what you'd want to use I think
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1266 2013-04-25 10:16:30 <The_Fly> hm
1267 2013-04-25 10:16:37 <The_Fly> it is just akin to a pagination index of sorts
1268 2013-04-25 10:16:41 <The_Fly> righ?
1269 2013-04-25 10:16:43 <The_Fly> *right?
1270 2013-04-25 10:16:49 <Luke-Jr> it is as documented..
1271 2013-04-25 10:17:10 <The_Fly> yeah, i see that
1272 2013-04-25 10:17:20 <The_Fly> so does not fulfill my requirements
1273 2013-04-25 10:18:45 <The_Fly> i will just have to make individual calls to gettransaction for all open transactions
1274 2013-04-25 10:18:56 <The_Fly> until they reach the required number of confirmations
1275 2013-04-25 10:19:39 <The_Fly> the only issue is that with high volume i can see a lot of processes being forked upon each blocknotify
1276 2013-04-25 10:20:02 <The_Fly> which, as commented in the pull request, is a bit of a DOS hole
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1281 2013-04-25 10:22:01 <The_Fly> would it be accepted if i add support for a maxconfirmations on listtransactions?
1282 2013-04-25 10:22:36 <The_Fly> on a very active wallet the output will grow to unmanageable proportions
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1284 2013-04-25 10:25:01 <Luke-Jr> exactly one process is run per blocknotify..
1285 2013-04-25 10:26:46 <The_Fly> yes... but i will then want to check the n_confirmations of each open transaction ihave
1286 2013-04-25 10:26:49 <The_Fly> *i have
1287 2013-04-25 10:27:10 <The_Fly> because i want to make a call somewhere else once it exceeds a treshold ammount
1288 2013-04-25 10:27:12 <The_Fly> *threshold
1289 2013-04-25 10:27:16 <devurandom> Luke-Jr et.al.: Another question about GBT, just so that I get it right: When I longpoll, any response that I get automatically invalidates all previous templates I got from the pool?
1290 2013-04-25 10:27:21 hydrogenesis has joined
1291 2013-04-25 10:27:26 <The_Fly> and then discontinue checking that account on all subsequent blocknotifies
1292 2013-04-25 10:27:49 <The_Fly> Luke-Jr: it might help if i say im building a transaction processing system for a project
1293 2013-04-25 10:27:57 <devurandom> So whenever my longpoll returns, I clear the work queue, stop everything, and start again with the new template?
1294 2013-04-25 10:28:21 <Luke-Jr> devurandom: not always, but you should use the new one as soon as reasonably possible
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1298 2013-04-25 10:29:50 <devurandom> Luke-Jr: Ok, so I do not continue with the existing template, but just throw it away on the next possible moment?
1299 2013-04-25 10:30:15 <Luke-Jr> devurandom: right
1300 2013-04-25 10:30:28 <devurandom> Luke-Jr: And you said something about me having to fetch more work, even though I longpoll. Should I fetch multiple templates and queue them up, until I get another longpoll answer?
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1302 2013-04-25 10:31:32 <devurandom> I might be confused, because I was reading a getwork implementation before. So I do not know whether the template I get from GBT is reasonably "large" that I do not have to fetch multiple of them to keep my workers busy.
1303 2013-04-25 10:32:22 <devurandom> But that is what the getwork impl did - it bugged the pool for lots of work, queued it up and then let its workers work down (or up?) the queue.
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1306 2013-04-25 10:35:02 <devurandom> Luke-Jr: And the longpollid mechanism works such that I send a bootstrap request and use the returned longpollid for the next request? And the id returned by that for the next, and so on?
1307 2013-04-25 10:35:34 <Luke-Jr> devurandom: fetching multiple templates at the same time will be useless
1308 2013-04-25 10:35:55 <Luke-Jr> devurandom: you just want to make sure you fetch a replacement before blkmaker tells you that the current one has run out of work/time
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1310 2013-04-25 10:36:56 <Luke-Jr> devurandom: and yes - although if the normally-fetched template changes longpollid you may need to abort a prior request and restart with the new one
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1312 2013-04-25 10:37:35 <devurandom> Luke-Jr: So if longpoll does not return in time, I need to fetch the next template "manually"? How do I figure out how long until I need to fetch again? Or do I just fetch 2 templates and rotate through these two with my workers, so I always have a spare?
1313 2013-04-25 10:38:03 <Luke-Jr> devurandom: if you fetch 2 templates at time T, most likely they will both expire at the same time T+N
1314 2013-04-25 10:38:14 <Luke-Jr> devurandom: work_left and time_left are counters
1315 2013-04-25 10:38:34 <Luke-Jr> devurandom: when time_left is doing to a few seconds, you probably want to be getting the next template coming in
1316 2013-04-25 10:39:01 <devurandom> Ok, thanks. :) (I assume time_left is measured in seconds?)
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1318 2013-04-25 10:39:56 <Luke-Jr> yes
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1324 2013-04-25 10:43:55 <The_Fly> hm, i like gavinandresen's suggestion of "-walletnotify=/path/to/named_pipe would be safer" and same for blocknotify
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1326 2013-04-25 10:44:29 <devurandom> work_left is the condition that depends on how fast my workers are, and time_left depends on the pool, right? So ideally, I would measure my hashrate and by that turn work_left into a time. And if either time_left or time_of_work_left goes below the margin, I would fetch another template?
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1330 2013-04-25 10:45:22 <Luke-Jr> The_Fly: not sure where that suggestion is, but I disagree on it being any safer. the same thing can already be achieved with -*notify='echo foo > named_pipe'
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1332 2013-04-25 10:45:42 <The_Fly> right, i have already been using an echo...
1333 2013-04-25 10:45:55 <The_Fly> thanks
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1336 2013-04-25 10:46:20 <Luke-Jr> devurandom: right
1337 2013-04-25 10:46:40 <Luke-Jr> devurandom: generally speaking, work_left on a new template will be either practically-infinite or 1
1338 2013-04-25 10:47:02 <Luke-Jr> in practice, I think every GBT server is doing practically-infinite
1339 2013-04-25 10:47:23 <sturles> What's the safety issue? Someone making a tx with txid like "`do evil muahaha`"?
1340 2013-04-25 10:47:35 <Luke-Jr> sturles: ?
1341 2013-04-25 10:47:54 <sturles> script vs named pipe
1342 2013-04-25 10:48:18 <sturles> The script is called with txid as argument.
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1345 2013-04-25 10:49:21 <Luke-Jr> sturles: txids are hex, that's impossible
1346 2013-04-25 10:49:26 <sturles> I know.
1347 2013-04-25 10:49:57 <sturles> I just wonder how *notify to a named pipe could be safer.
1348 2013-04-25 10:50:31 <Luke-Jr> well, maybe ask gavin when he's here :p
1349 2013-04-25 10:51:04 <Luke-Jr> using a named pipe would still need a fork anyway to avoid risk of blocking, so meh
1350 2013-04-25 10:51:38 <sturles> Yep. Writing to a named pipe will block when it is full. This may be a bigger problem if the reader dies.
1351 2013-04-25 10:51:42 <The_Fly> yeah, sorry, i missed the obvious echo to pipe
1352 2013-04-25 10:51:43 <Luke-Jr> (and would drastically reduce options - no more killall -HUP or curl to a remote server)
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1356 2013-04-25 10:53:40 <The_Fly> the only issue im still uncomfortable with is having to make calls to gettransaction on each blocknotify. if gettransaction is pretty fast then it's no problem
1357 2013-04-25 10:54:06 <The_Fly> and since a batch of gettransactions will only be called each blocknotity, i can live with that
1358 2013-04-25 10:54:37 <The_Fly> it's the only way to solve what im trying to do really
1359 2013-04-25 10:56:22 <devurandom> Luke-Jr: So I do not have to look at work_left at all, because the value has no actual meaning (if it is infinite)? (I assume it should measure the amount of calls to get_data that are possible?)
1360 2013-04-25 10:57:04 <devurandom> And if it is 1 - what does that mean? That the 2nd call to get_data will fail?
1361 2013-04-25 10:57:07 <devurandom> bbl
1362 2013-04-25 10:57:53 <Luke-Jr> devurandom: correct, if it is 1 you need to behave similar to getwork
1363 2013-04-25 10:58:54 <devurandom> So in that case, I need to queue up work manually?
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1370 2013-04-25 11:03:15 <Luke-Jr> devurandom: if necessary
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1392 2013-04-25 11:20:19 <MARKASH> HELLO
1393 2013-04-25 11:20:44 sud3n has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
1394 2013-04-25 11:21:47 sud3n has joined
1395 2013-04-25 11:22:07 <Scrat> HI FRIEND
1396 2013-04-25 11:22:40 <MARKASH> HELLO CAN ANYBODY SPEAK TO ME
1397 2013-04-25 11:22:52 <SomeoneWeird> no
1398 2013-04-25 11:23:00 <MARKASH> WHY
1399 2013-04-25 11:23:19 ralphtheninja has joined
1400 2013-04-25 11:23:22 paracyst has quit ()
1401 2013-04-25 11:23:37 <MARKASH> CAN ANYONE TELL ME ABOUT BITCOIN
1402 2013-04-25 11:24:54 <SomeoneWeird> because you're talking in caps
1403 2013-04-25 11:24:56 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1404 2013-04-25 11:24:58 <gmaxwell> MARKASH: you might want to go to #bitcoin channel instead of this one.
1405 2013-04-25 11:25:11 grau has joined
1406 2013-04-25 11:25:11 <gmaxwell> MARKASH: And avoid the allcaps, it's considered yelling.
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1413 2013-04-25 11:29:02 <Luke-Jr> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/04/stephen-watt-stalked-by-past/
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1461 2013-04-25 11:54:55 <devurandom> Luke-Jr: Thanks again!
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1549 2013-04-25 13:03:33 <The_Fly> is there any method which can divide the role of bitcoind up between blockchain syncing and wallet functions
1550 2013-04-25 13:03:43 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1551 2013-04-25 13:03:47 <The_Fly> say i want to host only one copy of the blockchain, but many wallets
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1555 2013-04-25 13:04:32 <The_Fly> storage is cheap, but the extra bandwidth for each wallet is not optimal
1556 2013-04-25 13:04:37 <The_Fly> or necessary
1557 2013-04-25 13:05:15 <alaricsp> The_Fly: SPV is a bit like that
1558 2013-04-25 13:05:30 <The_Fly> spv?
1559 2013-04-25 13:06:11 <The_Fly> unless im mistaken and it's actually not a bandwidth concern
1560 2013-04-25 13:06:13 <devurandom> Luke-Jr: I managed to run into another problem. In _build_merkle_root, the first element of txnlist is a bytes object as expected, but all later ones are _Transaction.
1561 2013-04-25 13:06:22 <The_Fly> i suppose depends on the billing structure of the hosting provider
1562 2013-04-25 13:06:35 <devurandom> Luke-Jr: And sha256 cannot work on that.
1563 2013-04-25 13:07:00 <The_Fly> storage cheap, bandwidth also cheap, but best not to multiply bitcoin traffic per wallet (im not even sure what bitcoin bandwidth usage is like)
1564 2013-04-25 13:07:25 <devurandom> Luke-Jr: When I do this instead, it works: txnlist = [coinbase] + [t.data for t in tmpl.txns]
1565 2013-04-25 13:07:30 <t7> wasnt too bad when i was running bitcoind on my linode
1566 2013-04-25 13:07:35 <t7> (bandwidth usage)
1567 2013-04-25 13:07:35 <The_Fly> at nearly 7GB per blockchain it's not bad
1568 2013-04-25 13:07:39 <The_Fly> but that's going to grow
1569 2013-04-25 13:07:50 <The_Fly> and bitcoin usage is only going to increase (we hope)
1570 2013-04-25 13:08:19 <The_Fly> so to scale better would be nice to have one p2p node and wallets existing independantly
1571 2013-04-25 13:08:44 <The_Fly> retaining the same RPC functionality that currently exists
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1580 2013-04-25 13:14:46 <The_Fly> hm, i dont see any easy way to do this
1581 2013-04-25 13:14:57 agricocb has joined
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1583 2013-04-25 13:16:59 <The_Fly> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=80007.0
1584 2013-04-25 13:17:15 rdymac has joined
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1586 2013-04-25 13:17:54 <diki> Why is COIN in util.h of type in64 instead of being unsigned?
1587 2013-04-25 13:17:58 i2pRelay has joined
1588 2013-04-25 13:17:59 <diki> *int64
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1593 2013-04-25 13:25:31 <pjorrit_> is there an unsigned64?
1594 2013-04-25 13:25:58 twmz has joined
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1596 2013-04-25 13:26:58 <diki> yes there is
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1599 2013-04-25 13:27:31 <diki> on Windows it can hold a value up to 18,446,744,073,709,551,615
1600 2013-04-25 13:27:54 <t7> uint64_t
1601 2013-04-25 13:28:26 Guest4009 has joined
1602 2013-04-25 13:28:27 <diki> I guess int64 does indeed suffice even for all of the 21 million coins if they were in a single wallet
1603 2013-04-25 13:28:31 sud3n has joined
1604 2013-04-25 13:28:39 <diki> unless of course we need more division
1605 2013-04-25 13:28:39 <The_Fly> hrm MultiBit looks ok, but im not sure if headless
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1611 2013-04-25 13:30:31 <diki> I was just doing a mild exercise in PHP and wondered how to process the numbers from fields in a POST request
1612 2013-04-25 13:30:46 <diki> in an exchange they are entered as 123.4567 etc
1613 2013-04-25 13:30:52 Thepok has joined
1614 2013-04-25 13:31:07 <diki> I was wondering how to process that, perhaps just stripping the dot
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1641 2013-04-25 13:48:00 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: ping, any news on the coinstate thing?
1642 2013-04-25 13:48:40 ielo has joined
1643 2013-04-25 13:48:47 <diki> Diapolo:Hey
1644 2013-04-25 13:49:03 <Diapolo> diki: hey mate
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1653 2013-04-25 13:50:36 <diki> When is CENT vs COIN used in the coin?
1654 2013-04-25 13:50:40 <diki> *code
1655 2013-04-25 13:51:17 JDuke128_ has joined
1656 2013-04-25 13:52:22 <Diapolo> diki: never took a look at that part of the code, sorry
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1663 2013-04-25 13:58:08 <Sucidal> Any Flash Programmers here ?
1664 2013-04-25 14:00:07 <Diablo-D3> bwahahahahahahahahahano.
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1671 2013-04-25 14:04:11 swulf-- has joined
1672 2013-04-25 14:04:38 <diki> lol?
1673 2013-04-25 14:04:40 <diki> Flash??
1674 2013-04-25 14:04:47 <diki> That thing should be dead.
1675 2013-04-25 14:05:35 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1676 2013-04-25 14:05:54 <Sucidal> Yes, because HTML with DRM is much better.
1677 2013-04-25 14:06:07 i2pRelay has joined
1678 2013-04-25 14:06:53 <diki> After Flash 9, it has sucks more CPU cycles than it needs.
1679 2013-04-25 14:06:57 <diki> Highly unoptimized.
1680 2013-04-25 14:07:23 malaimo has joined
1681 2013-04-25 14:08:10 <Sucidal> Flash is not perfect.
1682 2013-04-25 14:08:19 <Sucidal> and HTML 5 is.
1683 2013-04-25 14:11:08 <The_Fly> agreed
1684 2013-04-25 14:12:20 <Sucidal> Especially after the DRM implementation.
1685 2013-04-25 14:12:54 treaki has joined
1686 2013-04-25 14:13:07 <Sucidal> It will be able to lock down the Web better than Flash could have ever done.
1687 2013-04-25 14:13:11 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
1688 2013-04-25 14:13:19 <Sucidal> HTML5 lovers should start dancing on the ceiling already.
1689 2013-04-25 14:13:38 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1690 2013-04-25 14:13:43 <gonffen> html5 does have some really cool features
1691 2013-04-25 14:13:48 <Sucidal> While they are there, they might as well start speaking in tongues.
1692 2013-04-25 14:13:53 * HM2 grumbles something about xhtml
1693 2013-04-25 14:14:00 Tykling has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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1695 2013-04-25 14:14:30 <Sucidal> ha ha ha
1696 2013-04-25 14:14:32 michagogo has joined
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1698 2013-04-25 14:14:39 <Sucidal> HM2, yeah I remember xhtml.
1699 2013-04-25 14:14:39 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
1700 2013-04-25 14:14:43 <Sucidal> <br/> anyone ?
1701 2013-04-25 14:14:55 <saracen> I wish HTML5 only had the xml serialization :(
1702 2013-04-25 14:14:56 skinnkavaj has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1703 2013-04-25 14:16:03 <Sucidal> If approved.
1704 2013-04-25 14:16:13 <saracen> What do you mean?
1705 2013-04-25 14:16:19 <Sucidal> HTML5 will have DRM lock down before you will get your XML serialization.
1706 2013-04-25 14:16:29 <saracen> It has XML serialization already
1707 2013-04-25 14:16:57 skinnkavaj has joined
1708 2013-04-25 14:17:09 <Sucidal> NOT HTML5
1709 2013-04-25 14:17:15 <Sucidal> That would be XHTML5
1710 2013-04-25 14:17:29 <saracen> Yes. HTML5. HTML5 has two serializations: HTML and XML.
1711 2013-04-25 14:17:37 <Diablo-D3> you lie
1712 2013-04-25 14:17:40 <Sucidal> <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
1713 2013-04-25 14:17:47 <Diablo-D3> html5 killed xhtml :<
1714 2013-04-25 14:17:52 <Sucidal> Normal HTML 5 is: <!DOCTYPE html>
1715 2013-04-25 14:18:05 <saracen> Yes, when using html serialization
1716 2013-04-25 14:18:16 <saracen> add in the xhtml namespace and xml header
1717 2013-04-25 14:18:17 <Diablo-D3> s/html/sgml/
1718 2013-04-25 14:18:26 <saracen> and follow xml rules, and it becomes the xml serialization
1719 2013-04-25 14:18:38 <Sucidal> Why is this still going on ?
1720 2013-04-25 14:18:41 <saracen> SGML disappeared with HTML5. It's essentially the same thing, but they call it html.
1721 2013-04-25 14:18:41 * HM2 has a powerful debate-spawning grumble
1722 2013-04-25 14:18:44 <saracen> Which, is confusing
1723 2013-04-25 14:18:47 <saracen> But, that's what they did
1724 2013-04-25 14:18:54 <Sucidal> Fused...not fused...fused....not fused...
1725 2013-04-25 14:18:57 <saracen> http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/01/html5-is-html-and-xml.html
1726 2013-04-25 14:18:58 <saracen> Here
1727 2013-04-25 14:19:02 <saracen> that's a pretty picture
1728 2013-04-25 14:19:15 eian has joined
1729 2013-04-25 14:19:41 <Sucidal> Hold on
1730 2013-04-25 14:19:53 <HM2> wow the w3c website has improved greatly since i last visited
1731 2013-04-25 14:20:04 <Sucidal> You mean to tell me HTML 5 [The Normal one...] allow you to do <p> without the </P> ?
1732 2013-04-25 14:20:16 <Sucidal> Crap I think I just screwed my last project!
1733 2013-04-25 14:20:18 <saracen> Yes. When using the html serialization
1734 2013-04-25 14:20:26 <saracen> But, it does allow both, even with html
1735 2013-04-25 14:20:34 ColinT has joined
1736 2013-04-25 14:20:41 <saracen> But you can be strict about it and make it xml compliant (which is better, imp)
1737 2013-04-25 14:20:44 <saracen> imo*
1738 2013-04-25 14:20:46 <Sucidal> But then what becomes of the </br>
1739 2013-04-25 14:20:53 <Sucidal> <br/> I mean..........
1740 2013-04-25 14:20:58 <HM2> tag soup
1741 2013-04-25 14:21:16 <saracen> Well, <br> is fine in the html serialization, but it's not valid xml for the xml serialization
1742 2013-04-25 14:21:17 <Sucidal> I know they are quite religious about telling us <br/> is dead dead DEAD.
1743 2013-04-25 14:21:21 <saracen> in XML, tags must close
1744 2013-04-25 14:21:39 <HM2> in XML every tag has to be closed, unless it's of the <foo/> form
1745 2013-04-25 14:21:39 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1746 2013-04-25 14:21:43 <Sucidal> Fuck that shit why can't they stop this inbreding and choose one.
1747 2013-04-25 14:21:48 <saracen> Which is just a self-close :)
1748 2013-04-25 14:21:52 <Diablo-D3> HM2: yeah but thats just self closing
1749 2013-04-25 14:21:56 <HM2> <foo/> is equivalent to <foo></foo>
1750 2013-04-25 14:22:10 i2pRelay has joined
1751 2013-04-25 14:22:22 <HM2> even in early html, i think <br>blah</br> was technically valid
1752 2013-04-25 14:22:28 <Sucidal> Accept that there are no <br></br> equalvalent
1753 2013-04-25 14:22:33 <saracen> I wish they just kept to XML. There's not too much difference, but it annoys me they added things like data-something attribute. XML namespaces deal with that
1754 2013-04-25 14:22:38 <Sucidal> NO fucking way....
1755 2013-04-25 14:23:07 <HM2> saracen: it was infeasible.
1756 2013-04-25 14:23:16 <Sucidal> Instead of dealing with this real shit, they focus on useless shit like the <article> and <section> tags.
1757 2013-04-25 14:23:34 <saracen> That's not useless, that's the most important part of HTML5 :(
1758 2013-04-25 14:23:44 <saracen> Fuck video tags. Semantics are way more important.
1759 2013-04-25 14:23:47 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1760 2013-04-25 14:23:53 <Sucidal> Yeah, Sections and be inside Articles...but Articles can also be inside Section but Section ~~~~ and Article~~~ FUCK that shit.
1761 2013-04-25 14:24:02 <HM2> this is technically off topic here
1762 2013-04-25 14:24:06 * saracen shushes
1763 2013-04-25 14:24:13 <HM2> perhaps we should propose a <bitcoin> tag
1764 2013-04-25 14:24:18 Guest35017 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1765 2013-04-25 14:24:25 <Sucidal> That is NEVER going to happen.
1766 2013-04-25 14:24:29 <saracen> HM2: You can, with the XML serialization :)
1767 2013-04-25 14:24:39 <pjorrit> yes and <metatag> for you tag discussions
1768 2013-04-25 14:24:42 <Sucidal> You now have lobbist working on adding DRM in HTML5 where on Earth have you guys been ?
1769 2013-04-25 14:24:45 agricocb has joined
1770 2013-04-25 14:24:46 <Sucidal> This is VERY BAD NEWS.
1771 2013-04-25 14:24:55 <HM2> actually bitcoin:// uri scheme is in one of the html5 spec now, i think
1772 2013-04-25 14:24:56 <Sucidal> Guess who are the people proposing that ?
1773 2013-04-25 14:25:12 <Sucidal> and do you think those very people LIKE Bitcoins very much ?
1774 2013-04-25 14:25:21 <Sucidal> Me no think so.
1775 2013-04-25 14:25:26 <saracen> You've just turned into a crazy person :(
1776 2013-04-25 14:25:37 jedunnigan has joined
1777 2013-04-25 14:26:05 <HM2> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=7849&to=7850
1778 2013-04-25 14:26:18 <Sucidal> Me turning Crazy doesn't stop those people from adding DRM into HTML5.
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1793 2013-04-25 14:35:52 <Sucidal> Anywhay
1794 2013-04-25 14:36:09 <Sucidal> What EXACTLY does the XHTML do that HTML5 can't ?
1795 2013-04-25 14:36:55 <Diablo-D3> Sucidal: its actual xml
1796 2013-04-25 14:37:00 <Diablo-D3> thus you can do xml processing on it
1797 2013-04-25 14:37:06 <Diablo-D3> such as xslt
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1803 2013-04-25 14:41:15 <HM2> i actually saw a xslt converter that converted between json and xml
1804 2013-04-25 14:41:35 <Diablo-D3> the fuck.
1805 2013-04-25 14:41:44 <Diablo-D3> why the fuck would you even fucking do that
1806 2013-04-25 14:41:54 <HM2> it's a shame it's so verbose and a pain in the arse because transformation and schema validation is something people undervalue
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1814 2013-04-25 14:43:10 <Diablo-D3> HM2: I agree, but what I was using it for was linking xslt to an xml document and letting the browser transform it to xhtml
1815 2013-04-25 14:43:24 <Diablo-D3> it ended up being not worth the trouble
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1817 2013-04-25 14:44:22 <HM2> Yeah
1818 2013-04-25 14:44:33 <HM2> It's interesting how hypes move
1819 2013-04-25 14:44:40 mughat_2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1820 2013-04-25 14:44:43 <Diablo-D3> wasnt even a hype
1821 2013-04-25 14:44:46 <Diablo-D3> it was a stupid trick
1822 2013-04-25 14:44:53 <HM2> not really, that was the intent
1823 2013-04-25 14:45:03 <HM2> XML data, XSLT documentation transformation, CSS styling
1824 2013-04-25 14:45:06 <Diablo-D3> of course, now assholes do like handlebars type shit
1825 2013-04-25 14:45:15 <Diablo-D3> so its all loaded up with shitty client side JS
1826 2013-04-25 14:45:24 <Diablo-D3> thats a hundred times slower
1827 2013-04-25 14:45:28 <HM2> AngularJS actually, keep up to date with your hip webtech
1828 2013-04-25 14:45:31 <HM2> :P
1829 2013-04-25 14:45:42 <Diablo-D3> I dont want to
1830 2013-04-25 14:45:46 <Scrat> even angular doesnt do client side templating
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1832 2013-04-25 14:45:49 <Diablo-D3> I dont even like JS
1833 2013-04-25 14:45:53 <Scrat> well who does client side templating anyway
1834 2013-04-25 14:46:05 <Diablo-D3> I find JS a fucking disgusting language that needs to die already
1835 2013-04-25 14:46:18 i2pRelay has joined
1836 2013-04-25 14:46:19 <Scrat> but it won't
1837 2013-04-25 14:46:22 <jedunnigan> lol
1838 2013-04-25 14:46:22 <HM2> Javascript is a fine language
1839 2013-04-25 14:46:24 <Scrat> so you have to live with it
1840 2013-04-25 14:46:24 <Diablo-D3> I know ;_;
1841 2013-04-25 14:46:28 <Diablo-D3> Scrat: no I dont
1842 2013-04-25 14:46:29 <Diablo-D3> I.
1843 2013-04-25 14:46:30 <Diablo-D3> do.
1844 2013-04-25 14:46:31 <Diablo-D3> not.
1845 2013-04-25 14:46:32 <Diablo-D3> I refuse.
1846 2013-04-25 14:46:34 michagogo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1847 2013-04-25 14:46:39 <HM2> But i hate webdev with all my soul
1848 2013-04-25 14:47:01 <Diablo-D3> JS is just not sane
1849 2013-04-25 14:47:03 michagogo has joined
1850 2013-04-25 14:47:13 <HM2> more sane than serverside PHP
1851 2013-04-25 14:47:30 jaequery has joined
1852 2013-04-25 14:47:37 <Diablo-D3> HM2: thats apples and oranges
1853 2013-04-25 14:47:38 <Diablo-D3> well
1854 2013-04-25 14:47:39 <Diablo-D3> maybe not
1855 2013-04-25 14:47:41 loltu has joined
1856 2013-04-25 14:47:43 <Diablo-D3> nodejs DOES exist afterall
1857 2013-04-25 14:47:49 <Diablo-D3> I dont know why it does :<
1858 2013-04-25 14:47:58 <Diablo-D3> just because you can doesnt mean you should
1859 2013-04-25 14:48:01 <Scrat> try it and you'll see why
1860 2013-04-25 14:48:02 <HM2> I don't know either.
1861 2013-04-25 14:48:09 <Diablo-D3> Scrat: I did
1862 2013-04-25 14:48:15 <Diablo-D3> Scrat: I wanted to murder the guy that invented it
1863 2013-04-25 14:48:16 <Scrat> the old fastcgi process model is dead
1864 2013-04-25 14:48:18 <Scrat> lol
1865 2013-04-25 14:48:31 <Diablo-D3> wait wait wait rewind there a bit
1866 2013-04-25 14:48:32 <Scrat> go vert-x then or whatever the java FOTM is these days
1867 2013-04-25 14:48:34 <Diablo-D3> who said fastcgi
1868 2013-04-25 14:48:41 Tykling has joined
1869 2013-04-25 14:48:44 <Diablo-D3> I havent used fastcgi in over a decade
1870 2013-04-25 14:48:47 <Diablo-D3> waaya over a decade
1871 2013-04-25 14:48:48 pablog has quit (Quit: pablog)
1872 2013-04-25 14:48:58 <eian> FOTM = framework of the month?
1873 2013-04-25 14:49:05 <HM2> CGI made sense though, HTTP is a request-response protocol. CGI just bound the command line to HTTP
1874 2013-04-25 14:49:08 <Diablo-D3> and java can eat a whole bag of dicks
1875 2013-04-25 14:49:10 <Scrat> eian wins a cookie
1876 2013-04-25 14:49:12 <HM2> stdout went to the client, etc
1877 2013-04-25 14:49:21 <eian> lol
1878 2013-04-25 14:49:34 saulimus has joined
1879 2013-04-25 14:49:39 <Diablo-D3> the only language I hate more than java is c++
1880 2013-04-25 14:49:56 <HM2> Diablo-D3: just what languages do you favour?
1881 2013-04-25 14:50:08 <eian> assembly
1882 2013-04-25 14:50:09 <Diablo-D3> HM2: C, Perl when a fucktard isnt at the wheel
1883 2013-04-25 14:50:11 <HM2> so far you hate 60% of top languages
1884 2013-04-25 14:50:12 <eian> scratch that, machine code
1885 2013-04-25 14:50:19 <Scrat> punchcards
1886 2013-04-25 14:50:29 <HM2> Perl is on life support
1887 2013-04-25 14:50:30 <Diablo-D3> HM2: I keep hearing good things about rust
1888 2013-04-25 14:50:48 <Diablo-D3> and I tried go and I wish google would stop writing shit softwre
1889 2013-04-25 14:50:49 <HM2> Rust has worse syntax than C++, i'm not even going to restart my Rust rant
1890 2013-04-25 14:50:52 <eian> actually - let's melt some sand and make silicon wafers! Who is with me!
1891 2013-04-25 14:50:53 <Diablo-D3> they're a multi billion dollar company
1892 2013-04-25 14:51:10 <Diablo-D3> HM2: its not c++'s syntax that I hate (templates not withstanding)
1893 2013-04-25 14:51:12 whiterabbit has joined
1894 2013-04-25 14:51:21 <Diablo-D3> its that THERES SO MUCH OF IT
1895 2013-04-25 14:51:31 <HM2> So?
1896 2013-04-25 14:51:48 <HM2> C++ isn't really that large
1897 2013-04-25 14:51:48 <Diablo-D3> THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SPEC COMPLIANT C++ COMPILER
1898 2013-04-25 14:51:49 <Scrat> HM2: what makes no sense is however is to have 10k clients doing async stuff and serve that over 10k processes
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1902 2013-04-25 14:51:51 <Diablo-D3> IT JUST ISNT HAPPENING
1903 2013-04-25 14:52:01 <Scrat> the request->response model is getting blurry
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1905 2013-04-25 14:52:10 <Diablo-D3> and why the hell does it have multiple inherietence
1906 2013-04-25 14:52:15 <HM2> Scrat: of course, but CGI came out when the web was mostly still serving documents
1907 2013-04-25 14:52:26 <Diablo-D3> and why is it explicitly theadsafe now
1908 2013-04-25 14:52:28 <HM2> when the web moved to "web apps" we should have really thrown out HTTP altogether
1909 2013-04-25 14:52:40 JDuke128_ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1910 2013-04-25 14:52:40 <Diablo-D3> and why does it have this huge gigantic stdlib no one uses
1911 2013-04-25 14:52:45 <Scrat> google did
1912 2013-04-25 14:52:48 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1913 2013-04-25 14:52:52 <Diablo-D3> and why the hell did someone invent Boost
1914 2013-04-25 14:52:52 <Scrat> although SPDY is kind of patchwork
1915 2013-04-25 14:52:53 whiterabbit is now known as wrabbit
1916 2013-04-25 14:52:53 <Scrat> :p
1917 2013-04-25 14:53:06 <sivu> boost is good
1918 2013-04-25 14:53:11 <HM2> Diablo-D3: multiple inheritance is a feature, nobody forces you to use it.
1919 2013-04-25 14:53:16 <HM2> Diablo-D3: it actually makes some sense
1920 2013-04-25 14:53:21 eyalsh has joined
1921 2013-04-25 14:53:23 <Diablo-D3> HM2: no, its a misfeature
1922 2013-04-25 14:53:28 <Diablo-D3> it makes zero sense
1923 2013-04-25 14:53:32 <Diablo-D3> mixins predate c++
1924 2013-04-25 14:53:39 <Diablo-D3> theres no reason for c++ not to use that instead
1925 2013-04-25 14:53:47 <HM2> the misfeature was arguably using the same structure to represent interfaces and data structures
1926 2013-04-25 14:53:49 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1927 2013-04-25 14:53:56 <HM2> multiple inheritance just fell out of that
1928 2013-04-25 14:54:20 i2pRelay has joined
1929 2013-04-25 14:54:22 xenesis_ has joined
1930 2013-04-25 14:54:30 <HM2> but the C++ standard library uses very little inheritance, there's nothing wrong with a language supporting a controversial feature
1931 2013-04-25 14:54:37 <Diablo-D3> https://www.evernote.com/shard/s248/sh/c188c52a-3db4-46c1-84d8-1a38d5b93181/0312b5aa06a4b1a4c8442272863e87a1
1932 2013-04-25 14:54:44 <Diablo-D3> thats what I think a perfect language will look like
1933 2013-04-25 14:54:44 <HM2> you act like it ruins the language
1934 2013-04-25 14:54:51 <Diablo-D3> HM2: IT DOES
1935 2013-04-25 14:55:13 <HM2> MI ruins C++?
1936 2013-04-25 14:55:24 <Diablo-D3> yes
1937 2013-04-25 14:55:28 <HM2> it's a programmer choice to use it and has no effect on programs that don't
1938 2013-04-25 14:55:35 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
1939 2013-04-25 14:55:35 <Diablo-D3> HM2: wrong
1940 2013-04-25 14:55:40 <Diablo-D3> its SOME OTHER programmer's choice
1941 2013-04-25 14:55:40 <HM2> explain
1942 2013-04-25 14:55:44 <HM2> right
1943 2013-04-25 14:55:51 <Diablo-D3> I dont want to deal with broken code anymore
1944 2013-04-25 14:55:53 <HM2> so you feel you should tell other programmers what to do?
1945 2013-04-25 14:55:54 <Diablo-D3> Im tired of it
1946 2013-04-25 14:56:19 <Diablo-D3> HM2: If Im stuck fixing their fucking bugs that exist because the language spec was written by a moron? yes
1947 2013-04-25 14:56:37 <HM2> there's no difference between MI and this: struct A { int i; } struct B { int i; }, struct C { A a; B b; }
1948 2013-04-25 14:56:38 <sivu> maybe that code was written by one
1949 2013-04-25 14:56:40 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
1950 2013-04-25 14:56:41 <HM2> ^ MI in C
1951 2013-04-25 14:57:08 <Diablo-D3> sivu: thats an unrelated problem
1952 2013-04-25 14:57:13 <Diablo-D3> Im tired of people who cant code coding too
1953 2013-04-25 14:57:26 xenesis has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1954 2013-04-25 14:57:26 xenesis_ is now known as xenesis
1955 2013-04-25 14:57:38 Ashaman has joined
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1957 2013-04-25 14:57:49 cc_8 is now known as alphaguru
1958 2013-04-25 14:58:03 * alaricsp prefers models of object orientated based around generic functions rather than all this classy stuff
1959 2013-04-25 14:58:39 <HM2> classes in C++ are a fairly loose construct, you can do more or less what you wish
1960 2013-04-25 14:59:57 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1961 2013-04-25 15:00:07 Azetab has joined
1962 2013-04-25 15:00:16 <HM2> and mixins are possible with templates
1963 2013-04-25 15:00:27 Dyllo has joined
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1966 2013-04-25 15:01:56 jrmithdobbs has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1967 2013-04-25 15:02:23 i2pRelay has joined
1968 2013-04-25 15:02:36 * HM2 is a C++ fan
1969 2013-04-25 15:02:51 wrabbit has joined
1970 2013-04-25 15:02:59 serddaro has joined
1971 2013-04-25 15:03:00 grau has joined
1972 2013-04-25 15:03:03 <serddaro> Anyone here good with C? (programming lang) PM me
1973 2013-04-25 15:03:51 <HM2> I have to get around to learning Haskell though
1974 2013-04-25 15:04:00 * alaricsp is a smug Lisp weenie
1975 2013-04-25 15:04:02 <helo> serddaro: i bet some people in #c are pretty good with it
1976 2013-04-25 15:04:06 <alaricsp> I do C/C++ for a living, though
1977 2013-04-25 15:04:09 <HM2> I've run across a bunch of examples recently where Haskell has looked interesting
1978 2013-04-25 15:04:19 jrmithdobbs has joined
1979 2013-04-25 15:04:27 <alaricsp> C is... OK. C++ makes me sad.
1980 2013-04-25 15:04:38 dissipate has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1981 2013-04-25 15:05:03 dissipate has joined
1982 2013-04-25 15:05:19 <HM2> C++ deprecates C in all but the most extreme cases
1983 2013-04-25 15:05:20 randy-waterhouse has joined
1984 2013-04-25 15:05:31 <HM2> for anything running on a mainstream platform, there's no benefit
1985 2013-04-25 15:05:39 <HM2> in userland
1986 2013-04-25 15:05:49 <Sucidal> Wow
1987 2013-04-25 15:05:56 <Sucidal> Took me a while to read everything
1988 2013-04-25 15:06:07 <Sucidal> The latest version of C++ is up.
1989 2013-04-25 15:06:15 <diki> yep c++11
1990 2013-04-25 15:06:24 <Sucidal> Actually quite a while ago...I don't remember the name...oh there it is!
1991 2013-04-25 15:06:28 <Sucidal> Thank Dicki
1992 2013-04-25 15:07:23 <HM2> I don't even know how people could argue otherwise. C++ gives you C + [features]. Even if you only like *one* feature, like references, it's already better than C
1993 2013-04-25 15:07:47 <HM2> even if you're writing a library and you need a C ABI, you can do that in C++
1994 2013-04-25 15:08:01 <diki> alaricsp:Same
1995 2013-04-25 15:08:01 <Sucidal> I guess the issue is there are so many ways to write C++ programs.
1996 2013-04-25 15:08:13 tmsk has joined
1997 2013-04-25 15:08:39 <Sucidal> The same language under different programmers...you might as well be debugging another language altogether.
1998 2013-04-25 15:08:45 <HM2> the same is true of C
1999 2013-04-25 15:08:53 <Sucidal> BUT
2000 2013-04-25 15:08:55 <Sucidal> C is SIMPLE
2001 2013-04-25 15:08:57 <HM2> how many numpties decide to write their own string functions or data structures
2002 2013-04-25 15:09:04 <HM2> that's when C becomes non-simple
2003 2013-04-25 15:09:14 <Sucidal> Its Subset [DON'T include the new stuff like HTML Parses and SHIT] is small.
2004 2013-04-25 15:09:16 ielo has joined
2005 2013-04-25 15:09:25 <Sucidal> A 12 years old could remember it all.
2006 2013-04-25 15:09:33 <HM2> nonsense
2007 2013-04-25 15:09:53 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2008 2013-04-25 15:09:59 <diki> Since we are on the C++ topic
2009 2013-04-25 15:10:04 cris has quit ()
2010 2013-04-25 15:10:12 <diki> Bitcoin is hardly OOP because it uses classes where they arent needed
2011 2013-04-25 15:10:18 <HM2> knowing C isn't the same as writing valuable programs in C
2012 2013-04-25 15:10:24 <Sucidal> I think the problem is when Programmers try to use ALL the features of C++ for its own sake.
2013 2013-04-25 15:10:25 i2pRelay has joined
2014 2013-04-25 15:10:44 <Sucidal> Actually this is actually what happen to a number of languages in the last 90's.
2015 2013-04-25 15:10:58 <HM2> diki: Bitcoin fairly well classed up.
2016 2013-04-25 15:11:05 <Sucidal> We start to have programming language developed around OOP....SO MUCH OOP....for its own sake.
2017 2013-04-25 15:11:06 <HM2> there are 33 classes in main.h last time i checked
2018 2013-04-25 15:11:23 <Sucidal> I am surprise people don't just put OOP on the Tomb and Pray to it already.
2019 2013-04-25 15:12:26 <HM2> Bitcoin is a fairly nice codebase, and does fairly well using modern C++
2020 2013-04-25 15:12:49 <Sucidal> OOP is good....but I hate programming languages that require me to "dance" around OOP to get something done.
2021 2013-04-25 15:12:58 <Sucidal> *Cough* Java....
2022 2013-04-25 15:13:05 <Sucidal> Public Static Void Main anyone....
2023 2013-04-25 15:13:18 <serddaro> Isn't the whole linux kernel written in C>
2024 2013-04-25 15:13:20 <serddaro> ?
2025 2013-04-25 15:13:22 <jouke> Can I force nodes to connect to each other even though its max connections are reached?
2026 2013-04-25 15:13:35 cris has joined
2027 2013-04-25 15:13:47 <Sucidal> That is why C is awesome!
2028 2013-04-25 15:14:06 <Sucidal> You don't have to read up on some documentation on what this "mysterious" keyword does.
2029 2013-04-25 15:14:18 <Sucidal> But I am just as guilty.
2030 2013-04-25 15:14:32 <HM2> jouke: don't think so, you can add a "connect" parameter to bitcoin.conf
2031 2013-04-25 15:14:35 <Sucidal> I used Objects all the time.
2032 2013-04-25 15:15:11 <Sucidal> C is good for basic robotic programming which I used when programming car manufacture servos.
2033 2013-04-25 15:15:20 <HM2> actually "connect" seems to be a comprehensive list setting :/
2034 2013-04-25 15:15:44 <Sucidal> But for real world software with "nice GUIs" I prefer an object orientated approach.
2035 2013-04-25 15:16:06 <jouke> I have a network-facing node that has almost reached its maxed connections and one node that connects only to that node. I wonder what will happen if that node loses its connection to the first node.
2036 2013-04-25 15:16:09 <HM2> Sucidal: the only feature in C++ unsuitable for realtime, compared to C, are exceptions.
2037 2013-04-25 15:16:26 <HM2> RTTI can be problematic as well, but Bjarne said there's an O(1) time dynamic_cast in one of his papers
2038 2013-04-25 15:16:54 <alaricsp> C++ has some nasty surprises in it, though
2039 2013-04-25 15:17:02 <Sucidal> YES
2040 2013-04-25 15:17:02 <HM2> he consulted with some military types on some fighter plane project that used C++
2041 2013-04-25 15:17:15 <kinlo> why are exceptions unsuitable for realtime?
2042 2013-04-25 15:17:17 <alaricsp> What happens if you have non-virtual destructors, for instance. And I was bitten by virtual inheritance of constructors recently...
2043 2013-04-25 15:17:25 <kinlo> they are not variable in time are they?
2044 2013-04-25 15:17:36 xenesis_ has joined
2045 2013-04-25 15:17:41 <Sucidal> Non-Vitual Destructors ?
2046 2013-04-25 15:17:47 <Sucidal> I have never heard that term before.
2047 2013-04-25 15:17:55 <HM2> kinlo: you can't determine where an exception will be caught, how many times it'll be caught, and how long it'll be held before it's rethrown
2048 2013-04-25 15:17:57 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2049 2013-04-25 15:18:21 <alaricsp> Yeah, if you have a base class A with a destroctur ~A() and a subclass B with a destructor ~B and you have an instance of B pointed to by an "A *" pointer and you do "delete <pointer>", it'll call ~A() on an instance of B, not ~B().
2050 2013-04-25 15:18:29 <kinlo> HM2: why is that? you do have control over the source code, no?
2051 2013-04-25 15:18:41 <HM2> alaricsp: yep, and the solution is to make A a private base
2052 2013-04-25 15:18:41 <alaricsp> So you pretty much have to make your destructors virtual if there's any chance of that happening
2053 2013-04-25 15:18:54 i2pRelay has joined
2054 2013-04-25 15:19:04 <alaricsp> If you don't, you get strange unexpected behaviour at runtime!
2055 2013-04-25 15:19:14 <alaricsp> Similar is the virtual-inheritance constructor gotcha
2056 2013-04-25 15:19:27 <Sucidal> Simple
2057 2013-04-25 15:19:28 <alaricsp> I had a class, let's call it A, with two ctors: A() and A(int)
2058 2013-04-25 15:19:31 <Sucidal> DON'T USE POINTERS THEN.
2059 2013-04-25 15:19:42 <alaricsp> Then there's B that inherits A "virtual", and B() calls A(int)
2060 2013-04-25 15:19:46 <HM2> protected inheritance is the default in C++
2061 2013-04-25 15:19:48 <Sucidal> Every language in the coming years have explicitly stop this pointer nonsense.
2062 2013-04-25 15:19:52 <alaricsp> Then there's C in that inherits B, and C() calls B()
2063 2013-04-25 15:20:01 <HM2> if B inherits from A and A has a non-virtual destructor then its the B programmers fault
2064 2013-04-25 15:20:10 <HM2> they have overridden the sodding default
2065 2013-04-25 15:20:20 <etotheipi_> sipa what does an empty merkle tree look like?
2066 2013-04-25 15:20:22 <alaricsp> But when you construct a C, the ctors called are actually C(), B(), and A() - not A(int) :-(
2067 2013-04-25 15:20:23 <etotheipi_> serialized
2068 2013-04-25 15:20:28 <Sucidal> Pointers where created during a time when memory is expensive and programs have to point to the actual address themselves instead of ByVal.
2069 2013-04-25 15:20:32 xenesis has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2070 2013-04-25 15:20:32 xenesis_ is now known as xenesis
2071 2013-04-25 15:20:43 <darkskiez> Um, no
2072 2013-04-25 15:20:46 <etotheipi_> sipa: my code is spitting out all zero bits and just the merkle root
2073 2013-04-25 15:21:04 <HM2> right
2074 2013-04-25 15:21:07 <HM2> enough C++ talk
2075 2013-04-25 15:21:11 <Sucidal> We are so done with those days already.
2076 2013-04-25 15:21:12 <alaricsp> HM2: The problem is that C++ makes lots of things "the programmer's" fault; when you inherit from a class, you generally need to know various things about its parent classes to be able to safely subclass it and use those instances
2077 2013-04-25 15:21:24 <alaricsp> These create scope for easy errors
2078 2013-04-25 15:21:29 <Sucidal> true true
2079 2013-04-25 15:21:39 <HM2> alaricsp: it's called documentation
2080 2013-04-25 15:21:41 Michail1_ is now known as Michail1
2081 2013-04-25 15:21:45 <Sucidal> Which is kind of ironic isn't it.
2082 2013-04-25 15:21:58 <HM2> but pls, let C++ go now. etotheipi_ has a Bitcoin issue
2083 2013-04-25 15:22:06 <Sucidal> The whole idea of OOP is the ability to NOT KNOW what the parent Class is doing, so you can just do your work.
2084 2013-04-25 15:22:09 <etotheipi_> hey, etotheipi_ likes c++
2085 2013-04-25 15:22:11 <alaricsp> My virtual-inheritance-constructors mistake took me a day to figure out; I broke out the disassembler to verify that no call to A(int) was happening :-(
2086 2013-04-25 15:22:18 <alaricsp> Anyway, yes, I will stop moaning about C++
2087 2013-04-25 15:22:19 <devurandom> getwork provided a midstate - GBT does not. How do I generate it manually?
2088 2013-04-25 15:22:24 <Sucidal> But then not knowing what the parent is doing in the background can really bite you hard at times.
2089 2013-04-25 15:22:25 <etotheipi_> except I tend to avoid inheritance... where possible
2090 2013-04-25 15:22:32 <etotheipi_> try to keep things simple
2091 2013-04-25 15:22:46 <etotheipi_> even at the expense of some inefficient code practices
2092 2013-04-25 15:22:51 <Diablo-D3> anyhow
2093 2013-04-25 15:22:58 <Diablo-D3> Im going to bed
2094 2013-04-25 15:23:02 <Diablo-D3> night all
2095 2013-04-25 15:23:04 <alaricsp> 'night Diablo-D3
2096 2013-04-25 15:23:10 <Sucidal> Good night
2097 2013-04-25 15:23:20 <Sucidal> To generate the mid state devurandom
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2100 2013-04-25 15:23:25 <Sucidal> You need to understand SHA256.
2101 2013-04-25 15:23:30 <alaricsp> HM2: Documentation is great, but the authors of the codebase I'm in didn't document much ;-)
2102 2013-04-25 15:23:44 <HM2> oh hey devurandom, good work on gitian, i've been looking at it
2103 2013-04-25 15:23:47 <Sucidal> Build into SHA256 is the concept of the MidState
2104 2013-04-25 15:23:54 <devurandom> Sucidal: Yes, I read that. But I bet there is some existing code that I could just throw at the problem...
2105 2013-04-25 15:24:02 <Sucidal> The MidState is ACTUALLY INSIDE SHA256.
2106 2013-04-25 15:24:14 <devurandom> HM2: gitian? Mistaking me for someone?
2107 2013-04-25 15:24:34 <Sucidal> That is why I am asking you
2108 2013-04-25 15:24:36 <HM2> i asked who made it yesterday and someone said your name
2109 2013-04-25 15:24:42 <Sucidal> Do you understand what SHA256 is doing ?
2110 2013-04-25 15:24:56 <HM2> apparantely devrandom and devurandom are different people
2111 2013-04-25 15:25:10 * HM2 facepalms
2112 2013-04-25 15:25:31 <Sucidal> and also, what language are you using ?
2113 2013-04-25 15:25:54 <devurandom> Sucidal: I understand what a hashfunction is, but I have no clue about sha256.
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2115 2013-04-25 15:26:24 <devurandom> Sucidal: C is the language. Python would also work, if there is no speed penalty.
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2118 2013-04-25 15:27:07 <HM2> seen this? http://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/1862/sha-256-midstate
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2122 2013-04-25 15:28:48 <HM2> devurandom: what is GBT?
2123 2013-04-25 15:29:07 <devurandom> HM2: getblocktemplate - the supposed successorprotocol of getwork.
2124 2013-04-25 15:29:41 Sucidal has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2125 2013-04-25 15:30:08 <HM2> that stackexchg page recommends sphlib.
2126 2013-04-25 15:30:12 ligar has joined
2127 2013-04-25 15:30:40 <HM2> it's BST/MIT ish licensed
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2129 2013-04-25 15:31:17 <HM2> it's obviously kept up to date as well because the page mentions SHA-3
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2133 2013-04-25 15:34:36 <HM2> I almost like the new lean wiki ;)
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2150 2013-04-25 15:44:23 <devurandom> HM2: Thanks for the link. Looking at the description of the algorithm on SE and then into the actual specs for X_0 (or H^0), I realised that I had seen those hexvalues somewhere...
2151 2013-04-25 15:44:59 <devurandom> HM2: So the implementation I am reading already generated the midstate, but did not use it for some reason.
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2153 2013-04-25 15:45:16 <iwilcox> If I want all transactions from listtransactions, what should I be passing as args? If I pass no account, I get a bunch, but I want to be sure I'm getting *all*. To specify a count (e.g. 100000000) I need to specify an account; when I do that, I seem to limit what's listed to only sends.
2154 2013-04-25 15:45:58 <jouke> iwilcox: *
2155 2013-04-25 15:46:03 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2156 2013-04-25 15:46:19 <iwilcox> * instead of an account of: "" +
2157 2013-04-25 15:46:24 <iwilcox> Bah.
2158 2013-04-25 15:46:26 <iwilcox> * instead of an account of: ""?
2159 2013-04-25 15:46:38 <jouke> "" is an account as well
2160 2013-04-25 15:46:59 <iwilcox> Yeah, I get that.
2161 2013-04-25 15:47:23 <iwilcox> I just don't get why specifying that (default) account affects send/receive txn selection.
2162 2013-04-25 15:47:35 <iwilcox> Anyway, * works just fine, thanks.
2163 2013-04-25 15:47:46 <jouke> do you only send from that empty account?
2164 2013-04-25 15:48:03 bitit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2165 2013-04-25 15:48:11 <iwilcox> I've never created a second account, so presumably all txns should be in the default one.
2166 2013-04-25 15:48:42 <jouke> iwilcox: what does listaccounts show you?
2167 2013-04-25 15:48:45 <iwilcox> Try it at your end. Do you see any receives in the output of: listtransaction ""
2168 2013-04-25 15:48:46 <jouke> a negative balance?
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2170 2013-04-25 15:49:28 <iwilcox> Yeah, a negative balance.
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2172 2013-04-25 15:49:35 <jouke> iwilcox: It works fine for me.
2173 2013-04-25 15:49:42 <iwilcox> Ah, wait.
2174 2013-04-25 15:49:58 <jouke> iwilcox: somehow you are specifying "" as the account you want to send from.
2175 2013-04-25 15:50:05 <iwilcox> New Address seems to put the address in a dedicated named account.
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2177 2013-04-25 15:50:09 <iwilcox> Never knew that.
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2179 2013-04-25 15:50:37 <iwilcox> Thought all addresses were nominally under "" unless you did console/RPC stuff to create a new account and assign them to that.
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2199 2013-04-25 15:58:36 <iwilcox> I've no idea how my accounts ended up in the state they're in. I've no recollection of ever touching anything before â certainly console/RPC use, no explicit account creation, no explicit send from any particular account (all GUI use so far).
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2202 2013-04-25 15:59:16 <iwilcox> Seems the GUI "New Address" actually means "new account; new address; add address to account"
2203 2013-04-25 15:59:35 <iwilcox> Also seems that any send from the GUI means "send from '' "
2204 2013-04-25 16:00:01 <iwilcox> So you end up with a "" with a big negative balance and labelled addresses with positive ones, without ever having touched anything.
2205 2013-04-25 16:00:52 <iwilcox> All's well that ends well though. I can get to the data I need, thanks jouke. Only reason I went near RPC in the first place is that "Transactions" pane's Export CSV doesn't list fees.
2206 2013-04-25 16:01:49 <iwilcox> Fees are kind of important to the external accounting I'm doing, so not having fees in there renders the CSV export useless.
2207 2013-04-25 16:02:17 <jouke> I didin't know that, I only use bitcoind.
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2211 2013-04-25 16:05:36 <iwilcox> Might be worth remembering for the next time some GUI-using n00b like me comes in here and asks the same thing :)
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2213 2013-04-25 16:06:10 <jouke> :::)
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2226 2013-04-25 16:12:51 <TD> BlueMatt: poke
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2231 2013-04-25 16:14:01 <TD> BlueMatt: i think there's a bug in the bitcoinj scripting engine. OP_0 is rejected as reserved, but it's not. you have a comment saying you aren't sure why it isn't there, OP_0/OP_FALSE do result in 0 being put onto the stack, i think because of the branch on line 441 in Script::GetOp2 and then line 469
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2252 2013-04-25 16:31:00 <frac_> hello
2253 2013-04-25 16:31:23 <frac_> to sipa, gmaxwell and any other developers, i woke up to a really nasty error this morning trying to syncronize the blockchain
2254 2013-04-25 16:31:26 <frac_> here is a link to a pastebin output
2255 2013-04-25 16:31:39 <frac_> http://pastebin.com/Uj95BZ62
2256 2013-04-25 16:31:57 <frac_> seems a lot meaner than a simple segfault
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2276 2013-04-25 16:50:34 <jgm> Can bitcoind itself mine nowadays or has that been removed? Running a testnet instance and figured it'd be a bit more use if it actually mined...
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2280 2013-04-25 16:51:40 <helo> jgm: it mines with -gen=1
2281 2013-04-25 16:52:03 <helo> easy to solve some blocks on testnet too
2282 2013-04-25 16:52:39 <jgm> That still works does it? Great thanks, didn't want to keep warming up the planet with my GTX460 running at full pelt
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2286 2013-04-25 16:53:23 <helo> it just cpu mines
2287 2013-04-25 16:53:45 <jgm> Yep fine with that, just didn't want to have to use the GPU
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2305 2013-04-25 17:07:20 <nsh> if it helps, you won't be warming the planet, just increasing its entropy
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2309 2013-04-25 17:11:12 <jordandotdev> I'm looking for security tips for securing a bitcoind/litecoind wallet anyone have any recommendations?
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2312 2013-04-25 17:13:19 <iwilcox> Why the eight-peer target for a node? Why not more or fewer?
2313 2013-04-25 17:13:32 <darkskiez> jordandotdev, export a bunch to a paper wallet.
2314 2013-04-25 17:13:56 <jordandotdev> darkskiez sorry should be more specific
2315 2013-04-25 17:13:59 <jordandotdev> hosted wallet
2316 2013-04-25 17:14:02 <jordandotdev> with a web gui
2317 2013-04-25 17:14:13 <darkskiez> you can use paper wallets with hosted ones
2318 2013-04-25 17:14:24 <darkskiez> just print some off and use web ui to send the coins to the address on the wallet.
2319 2013-04-25 17:14:26 <jordandotdev> I know - but I want to offer it as a service to others
2320 2013-04-25 17:14:38 <darkskiez> OH, you want to run a web wallet service. um. good luck
2321 2013-04-25 17:14:44 <jordandotdev> I mean keeping credentials safe between web-app hot-wallet
2322 2013-04-25 17:15:04 <darkskiez> blockchain.info actually does it really well now
2323 2013-04-25 17:15:40 <darkskiez> their stuff is all client side, including decrypting the wallet , the users password never goes to their servers
2324 2013-04-25 17:15:48 <jordandotdev> I see
2325 2013-04-25 17:15:59 <jordandotdev> can't use them to host multiple "accounts" via json-rpc can I ?
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2327 2013-04-25 17:16:12 <HM2> there's still potential for XSS
2328 2013-04-25 17:16:20 <darkskiez> HM2, of course. its a web site.
2329 2013-04-25 17:16:34 <HM2> or a hacker to rewrite their js files
2330 2013-04-25 17:16:38 <darkskiez> yep
2331 2013-04-25 17:16:45 <kadoban> or them to just plain serve you bad js files
2332 2013-04-25 17:16:53 <darkskiez> but, if you are providing a web wallet service, how can you do better than that.
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2335 2013-04-25 17:17:11 <HM2> you can't
2336 2013-04-25 17:17:14 <kadoban> darkskiez: you probably can't...which is why i don't trust any of those
2337 2013-04-25 17:17:20 <jgm> But the main point is that blockchain can now say that it's your problem, as chances are you had a virus/trijan/keylogger/gremlin on your computer
2338 2013-04-25 17:17:23 <darkskiez> thats my point really
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2341 2013-04-25 17:17:47 <darkskiez> web wallets can only ever be "so" secure
2342 2013-04-25 17:17:51 <HM2> but really it's just a convenient user friendly interface to bitcoind
2343 2013-04-25 17:17:55 ToryJujube_ has joined
2344 2013-04-25 17:18:06 <HM2> i mean you could have bitcoind fire up its own web server and present a nice json rpc web interface
2345 2013-04-25 17:18:09 <darkskiez> but even local wallets can be compromised with computer gremlins
2346 2013-04-25 17:18:10 <jordandotdev> agreed ... that's why there isn't a lot of "security" recommendations out there
2347 2013-04-25 17:18:14 valparaiso has joined
2348 2013-04-25 17:18:29 <jordandotdev> if they break into the web-app try to keep them out of the bitcoind server
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2350 2013-04-25 17:18:38 <jordandotdev> if they get into the bitcoind server use hot-cold to limit losses
2351 2013-04-25 17:18:39 <darkskiez> paper wallets or air-gapped electronic ones are about the best you can get, at least they are safe until point of use.
2352 2013-04-25 17:18:48 treaki has joined
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2354 2013-04-25 17:19:13 <darkskiez> like, you can receive payments on your paper wallet and validate you received them and everything without any risk.
2355 2013-04-25 17:19:26 <darkskiez> which i think is a lovely design feature of bitcoin
2356 2013-04-25 17:19:46 <HM2> that's more a public key digital signature scheme feature
2357 2013-04-25 17:20:11 <darkskiez> yeh, well, yeh
2358 2013-04-25 17:20:12 <jgm> Yep Bitcoin is the opposite of most currencies. With other currencies the danger is you holding too much. With Bitcoin there's no danger at all unless you do something stupid like try to spend it
2359 2013-04-25 17:20:32 <HM2> there's always the $5 wrench
2360 2013-04-25 17:20:35 <darkskiez> they could have obscured that bit fairly easily.
2361 2013-04-25 17:20:40 <HM2> sometimes not holding your own wealth is better
2362 2013-04-25 17:20:47 <jgm> ^^ Absolutely
2363 2013-04-25 17:20:55 caput has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2364 2013-04-25 17:21:08 <jgm> And why online wallets are still so popular. People assume that somehow someone else doing it means that it's safer
2365 2013-04-25 17:21:14 <darkskiez> but you could be a "shop" and receive in person bitcoin payments and know that nobody could take back/steal what was given
2366 2013-04-25 17:21:36 <jordandotdev> so maybe it's a good idea, with the web-app I mean, to generate a bunch of addresses, seed the web-app database, than take those addresses completely offline, and validate incoming / outgoing transactions to credit them in the web-app... and never have the web-app directly communicate with the wallet?
2367 2013-04-25 17:21:42 <darkskiez> only keep a small amount accessible for refund-type purposes
2368 2013-04-25 17:21:46 <jordandotdev> except to say: 'get more addresses'
2369 2013-04-25 17:21:49 geb has joined
2370 2013-04-25 17:22:18 <darkskiez> if it can communicate with the wallet to say "send money" you're gubbed.
2371 2013-04-25 17:22:27 <darkskiez> which, as a web-wallet, you will need to do.
2372 2013-04-25 17:22:46 <diki> jgm:Hahahah, couldn't have said it better myself :)
2373 2013-04-25 17:22:47 <darkskiez> you could mitigate fraud by only keeping a %age in that wallet and topping it up by another system daily.
2374 2013-04-25 17:22:54 caput has joined
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2376 2013-04-25 17:22:55 <jgm> Yep you need to work out your user-spending-coins flow, that's the one that matters (as it needs to not be atatcker-spends-coins)
2377 2013-04-25 17:22:57 JDuke128 has joined
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2379 2013-04-25 17:23:13 <HM2> yep
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2383 2013-04-25 17:23:45 <HM2> I haven't seen much work on bitcoin equivalents to things like direct debits or safe scheduled payments
2384 2013-04-25 17:23:45 <darkskiez> you could basically have a "savings" account, that needs x days notice to retrieve into wallet.
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2388 2013-04-25 17:24:19 <HM2> it'd be nice if you could actually have a bitcoin current account with financial instrumentation, for paying bills/subscriptions etc
2389 2013-04-25 17:24:20 <jgm> darkskiez: but if you build that in to the webapp then it's easily bypassed
2390 2013-04-25 17:24:27 <HM2> but i guess alternative models will fill those roles
2391 2013-04-25 17:24:36 <HM2> more deposit accounts etc
2392 2013-04-25 17:24:38 nsillik_ has joined
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2394 2013-04-25 17:24:53 <jordandotdev> got it. I'll keep that in mind, and yeah the 'sending' under that scheme I mentioned is an issue
2395 2013-04-25 17:25:08 <darkskiez> jgm: no, because retrieving from those accounts would only happen in several days by manual intervention after notifying the user of the request
2396 2013-04-25 17:25:20 <jgm> HM2: no I think that you will see some very traditional services spring up but using bitcoin
2397 2013-04-25 17:25:47 <HM2> yeah, but my concern is they'll just use bitcoin as an in and out transfer mechanism
2398 2013-04-25 17:25:52 <jgm> darkskiez: ah well if you're talking airgaps and manual intervention that's a different beast. Much more secure, very expensive
2399 2013-04-25 17:26:20 <darkskiez> if you want security, it costs.
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2402 2013-04-25 17:26:43 <darkskiez> -> home
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2405 2013-04-25 17:26:54 <jgm> HM2: even if there are simple changes such as paying daily for services rather than monthly, that could be of significant interest
2406 2013-04-25 17:27:05 <jgm> darkskiez: totally agree, I just doubt that most people would pay for it
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2411 2013-04-25 17:28:25 <darenthis> I suspect that banking will adapt - bitcoin is like cash, no reason you couldn't have a BTC denominated bank account with all the usual services, direct debits, etc. The atm could even print paper wallets with fixed, small amounts on them.
2412 2013-04-25 17:28:26 strk has joined
2413 2013-04-25 17:28:28 <strk> Added 1 addresses from ... : 1079 tried, 13979 new
2414 2013-04-25 17:28:32 <strk> what does that mean ?
2415 2013-04-25 17:28:40 sipa has joined
2416 2013-04-25 17:28:49 <cotdayum> How would a btc ecommerce work ? I mean, the price, would it be fixed at a week average price ?
2417 2013-04-25 17:29:14 <Belxjander> darenthis: I would prefer having the "ATM" transfer to a "hot" wallet address that is pre-registered
2418 2013-04-25 17:29:46 <Belxjander> which pretty much removes the "printout" or any other transaction record other than it being a fancy dedicated touch-panel
2419 2013-04-25 17:29:54 <darenthis> that also works. You could offer the atm a QR code to send the money to, or get it to print a paper wallet
2420 2013-04-25 17:30:03 <strk> cotdayum: #bitcoin-pricetalk ?
2421 2013-04-25 17:30:06 <Belxjander> cotdayum: run prices of things in BTC instead of state currency
2422 2013-04-25 17:30:26 <jgm> Hmm... anyone solved the issue of change from a BTC note? Perhaps some way of calculating a new address from the existing address? Or perhaps just printing out two notes, one for the funds and one for the change.
2423 2013-04-25 17:30:50 <Belxjander> darenthis: I would not put BTC into a bank acct unless there was a definite advantage and they were able to earn my trust
2424 2013-04-25 17:31:09 <darenthis> one of my interests is figuring out how to make it easy for drunk people in bars to pay in BTC. Paper is the simplest thing. Hand over note. Get change.
2425 2013-04-25 17:31:27 <Belxjander> jgm: "fixed" paper wallets of pre-set denominations with multiple being printed out?
2426 2013-04-25 17:31:42 <darenthis> Belxjander: sure. The general public probably want the convenience of banking
2427 2013-04-25 17:31:53 <jgm> Doesn't fix the change issue, unless you like carrying around paper satoshis
2428 2013-04-25 17:32:20 <Belxjander> darenthis: the only real "change" between banking with BTC vs banking with other currencies is literal usage of a "digital" wallet device
2429 2013-04-25 17:32:28 <darenthis> jgm: with personalised notes, the change address could be on the note itself
2430 2013-04-25 17:32:51 <Belxjander> darenthis: just do the whole "swipe card" thing... have a QR coded card with the QR code being the address and sign it with some kind of pin number
2431 2013-04-25 17:32:58 workman has left ()
2432 2013-04-25 17:33:09 <cotdayum> Belxjander: so what if bitcoin crashes and goes down to $40 usd ? prices would be floating way too much
2433 2013-04-25 17:33:12 <jgm> darenthis: Yep something like that, but then you need to ensure that you have the private key for the change address in your wallet as well as ensuring that for any transaction it send the change to the correct address
2434 2013-04-25 17:33:24 whiterabbit has joined
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2436 2013-04-25 17:33:42 <Belxjander> cotdayum: that is based on the assumption prices are based on the local state currency and not the BTC currency seperately
2437 2013-04-25 17:33:53 nsillik has joined
2438 2013-04-25 17:33:53 <Belxjander> cotdayum: treat the two as independent domains
2439 2013-04-25 17:34:07 strk has left ()
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2441 2013-04-25 17:34:51 <Belxjander> How did business in europe deal with muliple country currencies before the euro?
2442 2013-04-25 17:35:08 <cotdayum> Belxjander: I see, I will study it some more, I'm about to propose bitcoins as a payment method to a client/friend's ecommerce
2443 2013-04-25 17:35:09 i2pRelay has joined
2444 2013-04-25 17:35:11 <jgm> More likely to end up with some sort of electronic version: customer enters PIN to verify transaction details, vendor sends details of transaction to customer's hardware wallet/phone/whatever, wallet asks for confirmation, customer confirms and wallet signs the transaction. Allows the wallet to confirm the transaction and change address.
2445 2013-04-25 17:35:27 * jgm Must read the payment protocol stuff to see how close it is
2446 2013-04-25 17:35:38 <darenthis> jgm: if you're using paper notes you don't have to use Bitcoin's change mechanism - you could always transact the whole amount and then send the change as a separate transaction.
2447 2013-04-25 17:36:17 <BlueMatt> TD: shit :(, Ill whip up a test-case for it and fix it this weekend (or maybe today if I have time)
2448 2013-04-25 17:36:19 <darenthis> so you can literally rip up the note once it's used
2449 2013-04-25 17:36:24 <jgm> darenthis: no such thing as a separate transaction though. Well, not unless you want to go around trusting vendors or silly things like that
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2451 2013-04-25 17:36:38 whiterabbit is now known as wrabbit
2452 2013-04-25 17:36:51 <darenthis> jgm: I trust vendors every day. I don't go to bars that short-change me
2453 2013-04-25 17:37:27 <jgm> You have 10BTC note and want to spend 1BTC: you want to ensure that the 9BTC change comes back to one of your addresses as part of the spend
2454 2013-04-25 17:38:05 <jgm> darenthis: yes this is true. But if we're just recreating fiat what's the point? If something better is possible we should incorporate it
2455 2013-04-25 17:38:41 <darenthis> jgm: could the script mechanism do that? could you script a txn that ensures the change goes to a specified address?
2456 2013-04-25 17:39:31 <jgm> darenthis: you could, but you need the address. And more importantly, you need the private key of the address or the change isn't yours. The trick is incorporating that into a note that comes out of an ATM
2457 2013-04-25 17:39:31 <darenthis> jgm: I don't mind recreating the useful parts of fiat - paper money is exceedingly convenient
2458 2013-04-25 17:39:52 seeingidog__ has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2459 2013-04-25 17:40:16 <darenthis> jgm: if you've already trusted a bank (you're using an atm) then they already know at least one of your private keys
2460 2013-04-25 17:40:51 <Belxjander> darenthis: I would more sort out the "bank" as a proxy setup myself
2461 2013-04-25 17:41:28 <Belxjander> darenthis: any way to "proxy cache" everyday spending and then cache and block process it into larger transaction groups ?
2462 2013-04-25 17:41:50 <jgm> darenthis: yep but once the money attached to a single transaction is spent it's spent, so there are ways of keeping that trust to a minimum. Ways which are far too complex for the layman today, but ways nevertheless
2463 2013-04-25 17:42:00 <darenthis> Belxjander: I find the deposit-holding aspect of banks useful. The fact that BTC is deflationary and I have the option to keep my money in a paper wallet will hopefully make them less blase about keeping my business
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2475 2013-04-25 17:50:14 <gmatteson_> using the sendfrom if i send .0000001 i receive this message. how do i add transaction fee to this command?
2476 2013-04-25 17:50:26 <gmatteson_> error: {"code":-4,"message":"Error: This transaction requires a transaction fee of at least 0.0005 because of its amount, complexity, or use of recently receive d funds!"}
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2484 2013-04-25 17:55:19 <sipa> gmatteson_: what is your balance?
2485 2013-04-25 17:55:41 <gmatteson_> 10 BTC. I wanted to test sending the smallest amount possible
2486 2013-04-25 17:55:50 <gmatteson_> and this was the message i recieved
2487 2013-04-25 17:56:56 <michagogo> gmatteson_: That would actually be not .0000001, but rather .00000001
2488 2013-04-25 17:56:59 gavinandresen has joined
2489 2013-04-25 17:57:10 <michagogo> Bitcoin is divisible down to 8 decimal places
2490 2013-04-25 17:57:12 santoscork has quit (Quit: Hibernation Time â¦)
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2495 2013-04-25 17:59:28 <gmatteson_> counted wrong! whoops, thats what i ment.
2496 2013-04-25 17:59:43 <gmatteson_> it wanted to charge a tx fee if i try sending the smallest amount available
2497 2013-04-25 18:00:14 mappum has joined
2498 2013-04-25 18:00:31 <CodeShark> most nodes won't relay the transaction if it has such small outputs and has no fee
2499 2013-04-25 18:01:10 Plinker has joined
2500 2013-04-25 18:01:14 <gmatteson_> thanks for the info. i have a bitcoind service running that i am just using locally for testing. is this a setting that i can set on the server?
2501 2013-04-25 18:01:34 <CodeShark> even if you could get your bitcoind node to relay it, most other nodes won't
2502 2013-04-25 18:01:37 <CodeShark> so it won't really help
2503 2013-04-25 18:01:50 richcollins has joined
2504 2013-04-25 18:01:50 <sipa> Belxjander: it was terrible, any time you wanted to go on vacaction :)
2505 2013-04-25 18:02:36 <gmatteson_> gotcha. thanks. what would the smallest recommended size be? what would you suggest?
2506 2013-04-25 18:03:17 <sipa> anything below 0.01 will need a fee
2507 2013-04-25 18:03:34 JDuke128 has joined
2508 2013-04-25 18:03:47 <gmatteson_> okay, thank you
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2515 2013-04-25 18:09:07 <The_Fly> hai, still looking for something which separates p2p/blockchain responsibilities from wallet management
2516 2013-04-25 18:09:22 <The_Fly> something which still provides all the rpc and notify goodness of bitcoind/qt
2517 2013-04-25 18:09:45 <The_Fly> does it exist, or should i forget it
2518 2013-04-25 18:09:48 Plinker_ has joined
2519 2013-04-25 18:10:14 <CodeShark> working on it :)
2520 2013-04-25 18:10:52 <CodeShark> the vast majority of my bitcoind instances make no use of the wallet whatsoever
2521 2013-04-25 18:10:58 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
2522 2013-04-25 18:11:12 <CodeShark> and the ones that do make use of the wallet are not installed on publicly accessible machines
2523 2013-04-25 18:11:26 <sipa> TD: i've made a change to my dns seeder, so it never actively asks the same node more than once a week for new addresses
2524 2013-04-25 18:11:53 <sipa> TD: still have to find out how well it keeps up, but it speeds things up a bit, and should reduce network bandwidth
2525 2013-04-25 18:12:10 <The_Fly> CodeShark: yes, thats what id like to do, have one instance running blockchain and database
2526 2013-04-25 18:12:19 <The_Fly> and several wallets off the back of that
2527 2013-04-25 18:12:39 <The_Fly> feels like something which might require pubsub
2528 2013-04-25 18:12:41 K1NN6 has left ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com")
2529 2013-04-25 18:12:42 <The_Fly> redis?
2530 2013-04-25 18:12:58 <sipa> 0mq
2531 2013-04-25 18:13:08 <sipa> there's a pullreq to add support for that
2532 2013-04-25 18:13:15 richcollins has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2533 2013-04-25 18:13:47 <CodeShark> I have a websockets interface - but not a very sophisticated queueing server
2534 2013-04-25 18:14:09 <CodeShark> however, the queueing can be implemented using off-the-shelf stuff
2535 2013-04-25 18:14:24 <The_Fly> sipa: 0mq?
2536 2013-04-25 18:14:34 <sipa> http://www.zeromq.org/
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2538 2013-04-25 18:14:50 <The_Fly> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2415
2539 2013-04-25 18:14:50 <The_Fly> ok
2540 2013-04-25 18:15:10 richcollins has joined
2541 2013-04-25 18:15:14 <The_Fly> mm, 0mq looks nice
2542 2013-04-25 18:15:24 i2pRelay has joined
2543 2013-04-25 18:15:35 <gmatteson_> when i use the sendfrom command in C# i have it sending the following:
2544 2013-04-25 18:15:39 <CodeShark> The_Fly: I've got a C++ library that lets you easily connect to a bitcoind node and grab events
2545 2013-04-25 18:15:58 <gmatteson_> sendfrom "myuserid" strDestinationAddress intBitcoins
2546 2013-04-25 18:16:08 <gmatteson_> with strDestination as a string and intBitcoins as an integer
2547 2013-04-25 18:16:14 <CodeShark> I've built a filter on top of that and added a websocket server...but haven't published the filter + ws server
2548 2013-04-25 18:16:14 <gmatteson_> i am getting a server 500 error
2549 2013-04-25 18:16:20 <gmatteson_> but from the bitcoind when i do it
2550 2013-04-25 18:16:23 shurnormal has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2551 2013-04-25 18:16:25 <gmatteson_> i am successful
2552 2013-04-25 18:16:33 <gmatteson_> is there a way to tell what type of data the server is expecting
2553 2013-04-25 18:16:39 <gmatteson_> when i send info to it?
2554 2013-04-25 18:16:44 <CodeShark> gmatteson_: do all the testing with curl
2555 2013-04-25 18:16:56 <The_Fly> CodeShark: that sounds interesting
2556 2013-04-25 18:16:56 <gmatteson_> whats werid is with curl it works..
2557 2013-04-25 18:17:13 <The_Fly> CodeShark: i mean, i can get with walletnotify and blocknotify a lot of what i need
2558 2013-04-25 18:17:14 <gmatteson_> i noticed sometimes when i send commands to the server using JSON
2559 2013-04-25 18:17:24 <gmatteson_> some paremeters only work if they are an integer
2560 2013-04-25 18:17:32 <The_Fly> CodeShark: but the splitting of blockchain db and wallets is what im looking for
2561 2013-04-25 18:17:36 <gmatteson_> rather than a string mynum = "4"
2562 2013-04-25 18:17:40 <gmatteson_> that doesnt work...
2563 2013-04-25 18:17:43 shurnormal has joined
2564 2013-04-25 18:17:47 <CodeShark> yes, gmatteson_ - it expects some parameters in quotes and some not in quotes
2565 2013-04-25 18:17:57 <CodeShark> if you put an int in quotes it complains
2566 2013-04-25 18:18:00 <gmatteson_> is there a way to konw which ones it expects?
2567 2013-04-25 18:18:06 Bjander has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2569 2013-04-25 18:18:24 <gmatteson_> clarification. is there a way to know which params it expects to be in quote and which ones it doesnt?
2570 2013-04-25 18:18:35 <CodeShark> ints should not be in quotes
2571 2013-04-25 18:18:52 <CodeShark> strings don't have to be in quotes (unless they contain special characters)
2572 2013-04-25 18:19:03 <gmatteson_> right, i actually have the following defined
2573 2013-04-25 18:19:05 <CodeShark> can't hurt to put strings in quotes
2574 2013-04-25 18:19:12 <CodeShark> actually, I take that back
2575 2013-04-25 18:19:16 <gmatteson_> the userid is a string, the address is a string and the bitcoin value right now is a double
2576 2013-04-25 18:19:17 <CodeShark> I think strings do need to be in quotes
2577 2013-04-25 18:19:22 <gmatteson_> yet it doesnt work.. get a 500 error
2578 2013-04-25 18:19:24 <The_Fly> hm, the 0mq branch looks good
2579 2013-04-25 18:19:33 <The_Fly> plus there are nodejs bindings for 0mq
2580 2013-04-25 18:20:36 <gmatteson_> AHHH found the error
2581 2013-04-25 18:20:37 <gmatteson_> base {Newtonsoft.Json.Linq.JContainer} = { "jsonrpc": "1.0", "id": "1", "method": "sendfrom", "params": [ "1234", "1GbGrcamC6MutuHdXgMXtLQQQhYvGJJAEN", 1E-08 ] }
2582 2013-04-25 18:20:56 ProfMac_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2583 2013-04-25 18:20:59 <gmatteson_> c# was converting the bitcoin value to scientific value
2584 2013-04-25 18:21:03 <CodeShark> floating point numbers are a bitch
2585 2013-04-25 18:21:03 <gmatteson_> and not .00010
2586 2013-04-25 18:21:08 <CodeShark> should never be used in financial software :p
2587 2013-04-25 18:21:14 eklass2 is now known as eklass
2588 2013-04-25 18:21:20 <gmatteson_> agreed!!
2589 2013-04-25 18:21:35 <CodeShark> I actually hate that most dynamically typed languages automatically try to do floating point conversions
2590 2013-04-25 18:21:52 <CodeShark> it's damn annoying :p
2591 2013-04-25 18:21:57 JDuke128 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2592 2013-04-25 18:22:06 <gmatteson_> i bet this has been screwing me up on a number of things.. i should send microsfot the coffee bill.. bastards...
2593 2013-04-25 18:22:08 <gmatteson_> lol
2594 2013-04-25 18:22:14 <The_Fly> heheh
2595 2013-04-25 18:22:24 <gmatteson_> thanks for the help guys
2596 2013-04-25 18:22:49 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2597 2013-04-25 18:23:02 <CodeShark> I'd like a way to tell the interpreter/compiler that I want fixed precision
2598 2013-04-25 18:23:06 <CodeShark> ALWAYS
2599 2013-04-25 18:23:13 <CodeShark> lol
2600 2013-04-25 18:23:13 <HM2> heh
2601 2013-04-25 18:23:15 ligar has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2602 2013-04-25 18:23:24 i2pRelay has joined
2603 2013-04-25 18:23:26 <HM2> numbers are annoying in C and C++
2604 2013-04-25 18:24:22 <HM2> std::is_integral and other type traits are handy in weeding out Cs implicit casting though
2605 2013-04-25 18:24:53 shurnormal has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2606 2013-04-25 18:25:24 ligar has joined
2607 2013-04-25 18:25:49 shurnormal has joined
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2609 2013-04-25 18:26:05 <CodeShark> the only safe way to really deal with fixed precision in many dynamically typed languages is to use integers
2610 2013-04-25 18:26:07 santoscork has joined
2611 2013-04-25 18:26:55 <sipa> except for languages that don't have integers
2612 2013-04-25 18:27:08 <sipa> or at least no safe way to prevent upcasting to floating point
2613 2013-04-25 18:27:28 <CodeShark> well, even in languages like javascript where all numerical types are floating points, integers are still accurately (losslessly) represented
2614 2013-04-25 18:27:28 rlifchitz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2615 2013-04-25 18:27:42 <sipa> as long as you don't overflow (afaik)
2616 2013-04-25 18:27:48 <CodeShark> yes, of course
2617 2013-04-25 18:28:13 <CodeShark> if you want to make sure you can't overflow you need to use arbitrary precision langugages or multiprecision libraries
2618 2013-04-25 18:28:26 <CodeShark> *languages
2619 2013-04-25 18:28:48 Plinker_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2620 2013-04-25 18:29:06 <CodeShark> Mathematica and erlang have arbitrary precision integer types, i.e.
2621 2013-04-25 18:29:27 jevin has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2622 2013-04-25 18:29:37 <sipa> and Haskell :)
2623 2013-04-25 18:30:50 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2624 2013-04-25 18:30:52 <nsh> rewrite bitcoind in mathematica?
2625 2013-04-25 18:30:57 <The_Fly> lol
2626 2013-04-25 18:30:59 <nsh> sounds like a play
2627 2013-04-25 18:31:02 <The_Fly> or braindfuck
2628 2013-04-25 18:31:05 <nsh> A New Kind of Economics
2629 2013-04-25 18:31:09 <The_Fly> *brainfuck
2630 2013-04-25 18:31:16 <nsh> by Stephen Wolfram('s assistant, shhh)
2631 2013-04-25 18:31:24 <CodeShark> Matthew Cook?
2632 2013-04-25 18:31:25 i2pRelay has joined
2633 2013-04-25 18:31:28 <CodeShark> lol
2634 2013-04-25 18:31:43 * nsh is pro wolfram hater
2635 2013-04-25 18:32:02 <nsh> well, i have to give most of the credit to him
2636 2013-04-25 18:32:08 <CodeShark> the guy is a bit arrogant - but he has written interesting stuff
2637 2013-04-25 18:32:25 <The_Fly> if wallets were to sit separately from the p2p process, i guess they'd have to securely communicate the private keys to get a transaction out, unless they were to broadcast on the network independantly... this is possible without the full blockchain right?
2638 2013-04-25 18:32:40 <The_Fly> *send private keys over to the main bitcoind
2639 2013-04-25 18:32:41 nospinzy has joined
2640 2013-04-25 18:32:46 <CodeShark> The_Fly: the only thing the private keys are needed for are for signing transactions
2641 2013-04-25 18:32:48 Namworld has joined
2642 2013-04-25 18:33:04 <The_Fly> which is required to make the transaction at all right?
2643 2013-04-25 18:33:06 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2644 2013-04-25 18:33:09 <CodeShark> transaction signing can be handled by a completely separate process from the p2p node
2645 2013-04-25 18:33:16 <nospinzy> YO
2646 2013-04-25 18:33:18 <nospinzy> http://blockchain.info/api/blockchain_wallet_api
2647 2013-04-25 18:33:19 Bjander has joined
2648 2013-04-25 18:33:19 <The_Fly> oh i see
2649 2013-04-25 18:33:25 <nospinzy> do i need to donwload stuff to use this php api
2650 2013-04-25 18:33:31 <nospinzy> or can i just start using it
2651 2013-04-25 18:33:39 <CodeShark> nospinzy: just use the curl module
2652 2013-04-25 18:33:40 <CodeShark> :)
2653 2013-04-25 18:33:51 <nospinzy> IDK WHAT THAT IS
2654 2013-04-25 18:33:59 <The_Fly> rtfm?
2655 2013-04-25 18:34:25 <CodeShark> php5-curl or whatever the package name is for your distro
2656 2013-04-25 18:34:32 <nospinzy> do i need that?
2657 2013-04-25 18:34:40 <The_Fly> yep
2658 2013-04-25 18:34:57 <nospinzy> is that a server install?
2659 2013-04-25 18:34:59 robbak_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2660 2013-04-25 18:35:01 <nospinzy> cause that would suck
2661 2013-04-25 18:35:08 <CodeShark> you need to be able to make HTTP requests - and php5-curl is probably the best way to do it from php
2662 2013-04-25 18:35:20 <nospinzy> i might already have it on myserver
2663 2013-04-25 18:35:30 robbak_ has joined
2664 2013-04-25 18:35:31 <The_Fly> CodeShark: to sign a transaction i dont need any of the blockchain? i guess bitcoind doesn't support the passing of a pre-signed transaction
2665 2013-04-25 18:35:36 <nospinzy> ill just try the code and ill see if it works
2666 2013-04-25 18:35:47 <CodeShark> The_Fly: you also need to know the outputs
2667 2013-04-25 18:35:48 <The_Fly> oh wait no, raw transaction
2668 2013-04-25 18:35:48 philihp_ is now known as philihp
2669 2013-04-25 18:35:51 PartTimeLegend has joined
2670 2013-04-25 18:35:55 <CodeShark> The_Fly: but not the full block chain
2671 2013-04-25 18:36:10 <The_Fly> so the wallet instances would need the latest block only?
2672 2013-04-25 18:36:25 <sipa> you don't need the blockchain at all to create transactions
2673 2013-04-25 18:36:26 jevin has joined
2674 2013-04-25 18:36:27 Cals has joined
2675 2013-04-25 18:36:28 <CodeShark> The_Fly: no, not even that - they just need all the unspent outputs that can be signed with its private keys
2676 2013-04-25 18:36:39 <sipa> you need it to know about incoming payments to you
2677 2013-04-25 18:36:45 <The_Fly> ok
2678 2013-04-25 18:36:45 <sipa> but once you have those, you're done
2679 2013-04-25 18:36:53 <The_Fly> do i have them on the wallets though?
2680 2013-04-25 18:36:58 <CodeShark> they also need to know when the outputs are spent
2681 2013-04-25 18:37:04 <The_Fly> hm
2682 2013-04-25 18:37:15 <The_Fly> my noobness does not parse outputs, sec
2683 2013-04-25 18:37:22 <CodeShark> but if it's just a single instance of the wallet, it would know when it sends
2684 2013-04-25 18:37:30 <sipa> then you shouldn't play with raw transactions yet :)
2685 2013-04-25 18:37:39 <CodeShark> however, if you run multiple instances, the other instances would have to be alerted when you spend
2686 2013-04-25 18:38:07 <The_Fly> right...
2687 2013-04-25 18:38:08 ColinT has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2688 2013-04-25 18:38:16 <The_Fly> yes spi
2689 2013-04-25 18:38:25 <The_Fly> *sipa,damn lag
2690 2013-04-25 18:38:52 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2691 2013-04-25 18:39:05 <MC1984> http://www.parallella.org/ how well could this theoretically do ECDSA sigs
2692 2013-04-25 18:39:24 i2pRelay has joined
2693 2013-04-25 18:39:34 <The_Fly> seems that this wallet/p2p segragation might be more hassle than it's worth atm
2694 2013-04-25 18:39:45 JDuke128 has joined
2695 2013-04-25 18:39:53 <CodeShark> MC1984: I've done ECDSA sigs in several seconds on an ATMega256 :)
2696 2013-04-25 18:40:08 rlifchitz has joined
2697 2013-04-25 18:40:15 <MC1984> ???
2698 2013-04-25 18:40:34 <CodeShark> parallella is like arduino? similar concept?
2699 2013-04-25 18:41:08 <MC1984> it has like 70 cores and 90 gflops of power
2700 2013-04-25 18:41:41 <MC1984> its like raspis roid-head stepbro
2701 2013-04-25 18:41:43 <CodeShark> oh, lol
2702 2013-04-25 18:41:47 <CodeShark> so it's like arduino on steroids
2703 2013-04-25 18:41:52 <The_Fly> heh, looks nice
2704 2013-04-25 18:42:11 <The_Fly> and opencl support
2705 2013-04-25 18:42:38 <MC1984> assuming ECDSA sig checking were magically parallelised for 66 cores on that thing
2706 2013-04-25 18:42:46 <MC1984> how good/bad would it be
2707 2013-04-25 18:42:54 <CodeShark> MC1984: if an ATMega256 can do ECDSA sigs in a few seconds, the Adapteva chips should be even faster
2708 2013-04-25 18:43:05 <MC1984> does EC use floating point?
2709 2013-04-25 18:43:12 <sipa> HELL NO
2710 2013-04-25 18:43:23 <MC1984> ??
2711 2013-04-25 18:43:29 <CodeShark> it's all integer ops
2712 2013-04-25 18:43:39 <sipa> "Sorry, we rounded your signature a bit."
2713 2013-04-25 18:43:42 <MC1984> so it would be bad
2714 2013-04-25 18:43:43 <CodeShark> haha
2715 2013-04-25 18:44:03 <sipa> using non-exact operations for crypto is ridiculous :p
2716 2013-04-25 18:44:04 <The_Fly> hm, her's a thought, can use bitcoind to createtransaction and signtransaction on the wallet instance, then send that to the p2p node
2717 2013-04-25 18:44:21 <The_Fly> is that possible/correct?
2718 2013-04-25 18:44:37 <CodeShark> The_Fly: yes, that is correct
2719 2013-04-25 18:44:38 <sipa> what is "the wallet instance"
2720 2013-04-25 18:44:41 <MC1984> trollan me?
2721 2013-04-25 18:44:54 <CodeShark> sipa: presumably he's talking about running multiple instances of bitcoind
2722 2013-04-25 18:45:04 <CodeShark> but using one instance only for p2p, another only for signing
2723 2013-04-25 18:45:10 <sipa> well then what's the point... you'll need the blockchain on both anyway
2724 2013-04-25 18:45:11 <The_Fly> yesm i thouth that wasa obvious...
2725 2013-04-25 18:45:24 <sipa> at least with current implementations
2726 2013-04-25 18:45:30 <The_Fly> sipa, this is what i was asking
2727 2013-04-25 18:45:44 <sipa> the point of rawtransaction API is to be able to implement your own wallet
2728 2013-04-25 18:45:48 <sipa> not to move the wallet elsewhere
2729 2013-04-25 18:46:15 <The_Fly> i see
2730 2013-04-25 18:46:21 <jgm> You could have a wallet separate from bitcoind easily enough, as long as you keep it synced with walletnotify or blocknotify. Easy enough to write code to sign your own transactions and then you can just pass the raw fully-signed transaction to bitcoind.
2731 2013-04-25 18:46:39 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2732 2013-04-25 18:46:54 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2733 2013-04-25 18:46:56 <CodeShark> walletnotify won'
2734 2013-04-25 18:47:05 <The_Fly> jgm, thanks, that sounds promising
2735 2013-04-25 18:47:09 <CodeShark> walletnotify won't really do you much good unless you use pull req #2121 :)
2736 2013-04-25 18:47:20 <MC1984> "Even though its primary objective is floating point computation, with a CoreMark performance of over 12,000 for a single core, Epiphany is fast as an integer processor."
2737 2013-04-25 18:47:22 <sipa> MC1984: what do you mean?
2738 2013-04-25 18:47:27 i2pRelay has joined
2739 2013-04-25 18:47:33 <michagogo> [21:21:06] <sipa> "Sorry, we rounded your signature a bit."
2740 2013-04-25 18:47:34 <michagogo> LOL
2741 2013-04-25 18:47:39 <michagogo> Literally,
2742 2013-04-25 18:47:43 <michagogo> s/,/./
2743 2013-04-25 18:47:52 <MC1984> im trying trying to work out if you could sync a chain in 10 minutes on this thing or not
2744 2013-04-25 18:48:06 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2745 2013-04-25 18:48:12 <CodeShark> synching a chain requires verification, not just signing
2746 2013-04-25 18:48:13 Bjander has joined
2747 2013-04-25 18:48:18 <CodeShark> and verification is far more expensive computationally
2748 2013-04-25 18:48:19 <jgm> Well yes you'd need to run a patched bitcoind. I'd actually go down the 0mq route if it was my choice, but haven't looked at that patch to see if it broadcasts everything that would be required
2749 2013-04-25 18:48:25 <MC1984> given magical HEAVY multicore optimisation
2750 2013-04-25 18:48:28 <The_Fly> perhaps this is too problematic
2751 2013-04-25 18:49:15 <The_Fly> id like to keep wallets separate as a security precaution, among other things
2752 2013-04-25 18:49:28 <sipa> The_Fly: create your wallet on one machine
2753 2013-04-25 18:49:32 <The_Fly> its more convenient, less wasteful of diskspace
2754 2013-04-25 18:49:33 <sipa> The_Fly: encrypt it
2755 2013-04-25 18:49:38 <sipa> move it to another
2756 2013-04-25 18:49:47 Diapolis has joined
2757 2013-04-25 18:49:49 <sipa> the other is connected to the network
2758 2013-04-25 18:49:59 <Scrat> sipa: that would require a big keypool no?
2759 2013-04-25 18:50:06 <sipa> there you receive payments, and use createrawtransaction when you need to
2760 2013-04-25 18:50:16 <sipa> move to the other to sign them
2761 2013-04-25 18:50:24 <Scrat> change addresses ruin everything :'(
2762 2013-04-25 18:50:30 <sipa> Scrat: you can regularly sync
2763 2013-04-25 18:50:39 LorenzoMoney has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
2764 2013-04-25 18:50:44 <sipa> and i hope bip32 is final soon, so we can have deterministic wallets implemented
2765 2013-04-25 18:50:56 <CodeShark> yes, please! :)
2766 2013-04-25 18:51:07 <jgm> Change addresses don't have to be unique. Not sure if there is a real benefit to having a different address for change every time, tbh
2767 2013-04-25 18:51:09 <The_Fly> if the wallet is encrypted wont that require manual auth to create/send a transaction?
2768 2013-04-25 18:51:19 <sipa> jgm: privacy
2769 2013-04-25 18:51:27 <sipa> The_Fly: yes, but that you do on the offline computer
2770 2013-04-25 18:51:56 <CodeShark> jgm: I've often made that point as well...mainly, that using a different change address is a good idea AS LONG AS the wallet implementations are good enough to be able to do that without complicating usability
2771 2013-04-25 18:51:56 <The_Fly> hm, perhaps i didnt state clearly what im doing
2772 2013-04-25 18:52:00 <The_Fly> this needs to be automated
2773 2013-04-25 18:52:32 <CodeShark> since the bitcoind wallet cannot do one-time change addresses without significantly complicating usability, for most users it's simply not worth it
2774 2013-04-25 18:52:59 <The_Fly> i also need a lot of addresses, for theproject
2775 2013-04-25 18:53:03 <jgm> sipa: I doubt that most people care about privacy to that extent. And it's not like you can't track it through the transaction anyway
2776 2013-04-25 18:53:09 HM2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2777 2013-04-25 18:53:10 <sipa> jgm: not your own
2778 2013-04-25 18:53:11 <CodeShark> usability trumps the marginal improvement in privacy that one-time change addresses afford
2779 2013-04-25 18:53:12 <sipa> jgm: everyone's
2780 2013-04-25 18:53:12 <The_Fly> is more convenient, not for privacy in this case
2781 2013-04-25 18:53:18 <CodeShark> at least with the current implementation
2782 2013-04-25 18:53:18 HM2 has joined
2783 2013-04-25 18:53:22 <sipa> CodeShark: agree there
2784 2013-04-25 18:53:28 <The_Fly> actually i think i cant avoid separate addresses with what im trying to do
2785 2013-04-25 18:53:46 <The_Fly> its funademantal to how this would work
2786 2013-04-25 18:53:47 theorbtwo has joined
2787 2013-04-25 18:53:54 <CodeShark> that's not to say that a good implementation of one-time change addresses isn't possible
2788 2013-04-25 18:54:26 <The_Fly> ah , i guess storage is so cheap i can download the blockchain once, then scp it to other machines on the network
2789 2013-04-25 18:54:40 agricocb has joined
2790 2013-04-25 18:54:43 <The_Fly> im doing this all in amazon EC2
2791 2013-04-25 18:54:51 <The_Fly> and the micro instances were not strong enough
2792 2013-04-25 18:54:56 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2793 2013-04-25 18:55:03 <The_Fly> well, cpu was maxed out for a while
2794 2013-04-25 18:55:03 richcollins has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2795 2013-04-25 18:55:17 viperhr has joined
2796 2013-04-25 18:55:18 <sipa> that's expected on any system
2797 2013-04-25 18:55:28 i2pRelay has joined
2798 2013-04-25 18:55:39 taha has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2799 2013-04-25 18:55:54 <The_Fly> i think it needs more power, ssh login was slow/not happening
2800 2013-04-25 18:55:54 <jgm> The_Fly: you know, it might make sense for you to write up exactly what you're attempting to do so that people can give relevant suggestions. There are lots of things that could be done but without knowing the specifics there's going to be a lot of back-and-forth like this with us missing, at least partially, the point
2801 2013-04-25 18:56:01 richcollins has joined
2802 2013-04-25 18:56:11 <The_Fly> jgm: you're right, and i apologise
2803 2013-04-25 18:56:17 <The_Fly> just i have an original idea
2804 2013-04-25 18:56:27 <The_Fly> nobody is doing with btc
2805 2013-04-25 18:56:28 <jgm> Don't apologise, it's just a time-saving step :)
2806 2013-04-25 18:57:12 <The_Fly> i think i can say as much as, im goint to be running multple projects, would be nice to have separate wallets for each
2807 2013-04-25 18:57:23 <The_Fly> id like to keep those on the vpn network only
2808 2013-04-25 18:57:42 <The_Fly> and expose only the webs server and p2p instance
2809 2013-04-25 18:58:10 <The_Fly> without duplication of the blockchain, or network traffic
2810 2013-04-25 18:58:20 denisx has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2811 2013-04-25 18:58:48 <The_Fly> in the end i might just bite the bullet and have separate bitcoind per project
2812 2013-04-25 18:58:49 denisx has joined
2813 2013-04-25 18:59:02 <The_Fly> but i anticipate the blockchain will be huge in future
2814 2013-04-25 18:59:21 <The_Fly> is already pretty big
2815 2013-04-25 18:59:36 <nsh> only if you measure it lengthways
2816 2013-04-25 18:59:44 <nsh> it's O(n) in width
2817 2013-04-25 18:59:46 <The_Fly> :)
2818 2013-04-25 18:59:49 <nsh> wait
2819 2013-04-25 18:59:52 <nsh> O(1)
2820 2013-04-25 18:59:54 <The_Fly> log
2821 2013-04-25 19:00:01 <The_Fly> no,nvm
2822 2013-04-25 19:00:15 <nsh> probably int he future we can fold it into a concertina shape
2823 2013-04-25 19:00:18 <nsh> so it takes up less space
2824 2013-04-25 19:00:24 <The_Fly> i see
2825 2013-04-25 19:00:31 <nsh> like chromatids
2826 2013-04-25 19:00:33 saracen has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2827 2013-04-25 19:00:36 <The_Fly> shatner's basson
2828 2013-04-25 19:00:40 <nsh> hehehe
2829 2013-04-25 19:00:44 <nsh> The_Fly++
2830 2013-04-25 19:00:45 <The_Fly> *basoon
2831 2013-04-25 19:01:10 mappum has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2832 2013-04-25 19:01:18 <The_Fly> my connection lags today :( cant type
2833 2013-04-25 19:01:30 mappum has joined
2834 2013-04-25 19:01:38 <nsh> we can just communicate through ping-time body languge
2835 2013-04-25 19:01:40 D34TH has joined
2836 2013-04-25 19:01:42 giftcoin has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2837 2013-04-25 19:01:44 darenthis has joined
2838 2013-04-25 19:01:49 <The_Fly> ping-time morse
2839 2013-04-25 19:01:49 <nsh> vary your lag creatively
2840 2013-04-25 19:02:09 <The_Fly> 30ms 30ms 30ms 50ms 50ms 50ms 30ms 30ms 30sm
2841 2013-04-25 19:02:10 <nsh> ;;google latency steganography
2842 2013-04-25 19:02:11 <gribble> Steganography - Freenet Wiki: <https://wiki.freenetproject.org/Steganography>; Compact and low-latency scheme for optical steganography ... - IEEE: <http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/2220/4770438/04770468.pdf?arnumber=4770468>; Compact and low-latency scheme for optical steganography ... - IEEE: <http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=4770468>
2843 2013-04-25 19:02:17 <nsh> hmm
2844 2013-04-25 19:02:23 * nsh gets the patent pad out
2845 2013-04-25 19:02:23 <The_Fly> i had this idea before
2846 2013-04-25 19:02:26 <nsh> SHUP
2847 2013-04-25 19:02:33 <The_Fly> i dids
2848 2013-04-25 19:02:43 <nsh> don't make me satoshi you
2849 2013-04-25 19:02:48 <nsh> i did it once
2850 2013-04-25 19:02:59 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2851 2013-04-25 19:03:01 <The_Fly> k i surrender
2852 2013-04-25 19:03:07 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2853 2013-04-25 19:03:09 <The_Fly> game over
2854 2013-04-25 19:03:14 Bjander has joined
2855 2013-04-25 19:03:28 * nsh mates the checks
2856 2013-04-25 19:03:52 i2pRelay has joined
2857 2013-04-25 19:04:05 Varan has joined
2858 2013-04-25 19:04:07 <The_Fly> hm this 0mq options sounds interesting, theres no wallet which runs off 0mq events right now, that would be a tall order right?
2859 2013-04-25 19:04:08 Happzz has joined
2860 2013-04-25 19:04:15 saracen has joined
2861 2013-04-25 19:04:50 <The_Fly> and i guess they'd have to somehow send transaction back to main node, http/socket
2862 2013-04-25 19:04:53 pulsed has joined
2863 2013-04-25 19:05:04 <Varan> I'm thinking of creating a bitcoin client in go ... is it wise to trust https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script and other pages from the wiki as correct?
2864 2013-04-25 19:05:21 <Varan> Or should i really be looking at the original source code?
2865 2013-04-25 19:05:51 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2866 2013-04-25 19:05:56 pulsed has left ()
2867 2013-04-25 19:06:05 <lianj> Varan: both
2868 2013-04-25 19:06:34 owowo has joined
2869 2013-04-25 19:06:36 darenthis has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2870 2013-04-25 19:08:16 <nsh> Varan, a lot of script opcodes are disabled in the code
2871 2013-04-25 19:08:24 <nsh> due to lolsploits
2872 2013-04-25 19:08:45 <Varan> Oke ... thats not good... it's hard to trust the wiki to be correct and it's hard to trust my understanding of the original code to be correct...
2873 2013-04-25 19:08:51 <Varan> lolsploits?
2874 2013-04-25 19:09:12 ProfMac has joined
2875 2013-04-25 19:09:21 <nsh> Varan, see https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Common_Vulnerabilities_and_Exposures
2876 2013-04-25 19:09:50 <nsh> it was decided for integrity to disable some of the untested features of scripting rather than risk serious exploitation of bugs
2877 2013-04-25 19:10:08 <nsh> "On August 15 2010, it was discovered that block 74638 contained a transaction that created over 184 billion bitcoins for two different addresses."
2878 2013-04-25 19:10:12 <nsh> might have played a bit part in it :)
2879 2013-04-25 19:11:01 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2880 2013-04-25 19:11:03 <Varan> hmm
2881 2013-04-25 19:11:16 <HM2> Satoshi still has 80 billion of that 184 billion
2882 2013-04-25 19:11:18 <The_Fly> did somebody get rich?
2883 2013-04-25 19:11:19 <licnep> how is the blockchain downloaded when you first run the client? i suppose you don't download all of it from a single peer
2884 2013-04-25 19:11:33 i2pRelay has joined
2885 2013-04-25 19:14:30 wizkid057 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2886 2013-04-25 19:14:48 <licnep> HM2: satoshi probably sold everything he had around the 2011 crash
2887 2013-04-25 19:14:48 Toresh has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2888 2013-04-25 19:14:48 <nsh> The_Fly, it was reversed
2889 2013-04-25 19:14:49 mughat_3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2890 2013-04-25 19:14:49 mughat_3 has joined
2891 2013-04-25 19:14:50 Toresh has joined
2892 2013-04-25 19:14:50 <serp> licnep: it's multiple peers. I the client picks peers from one of several random irc channels on some designated/hardcoded server
2893 2013-04-25 19:14:50 <HM2> licnep: I hear he's waiting to buy Spain
2894 2013-04-25 19:14:50 <licnep> HM2: lol
2895 2013-04-25 19:14:51 Plarkplark_ has joined
2896 2013-04-25 19:14:51 <sipa> serp: irc isn't used anymore
2897 2013-04-25 19:14:51 <licnep> serp: yea, i think i'll check the source for the details, thanks
2898 2013-04-25 19:14:51 <Plarkplark_> Compiling btc on Win from scratch - src works, but qt gives me: boost/thread/win32/shared_mutex.hpp: In constructor 'boost:
2899 2013-04-25 19:14:56 <Plarkplark_> Anybody has any idea
2900 2013-04-25 19:15:03 <serp> sipa: what is used now?
2901 2013-04-25 19:15:03 bumtime has joined
2902 2013-04-25 19:15:07 Benjojo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2903 2013-04-25 19:15:08 <sipa> licnep: and blockchain downloading is in fact mostly downloaded from one peer
2904 2013-04-25 19:15:11 <sipa> serp: dns seeding
2905 2013-04-25 19:15:13 <HM2> Plarkplark_: what's the error after that line?
2906 2013-04-25 19:15:29 <serp> ahh that makes more sense
2907 2013-04-25 19:15:33 <Plarkplark_> ..\deps\boost_1_47_0/boost/thread/win32/shared_mutex.hpp: In constructor 'boost:
2908 2013-04-25 19:15:33 <Plarkplark_> :shared_mutex::shared_mutex()':
2909 2013-04-25 19:15:34 bitcoinbulletin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2910 2013-04-25 19:15:34 <Plarkplark_> ..\deps\boost_1_47_0/boost/thread/win32/shared_mutex.hpp:84:33: let op: missing
2911 2013-04-25 19:15:34 <Plarkplark_> initializer for member 'boost::shared_mutex::state_data::shared_waiting' [-Wmiss
2912 2013-04-25 19:15:34 <Plarkplark_> ing-field-initializers]
2913 2013-04-25 19:15:41 qbasicer_ has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2914 2013-04-25 19:15:57 qbasicer has joined
2915 2013-04-25 19:16:09 <sipa> Plarkplark_: that's no error
2916 2013-04-25 19:16:09 <Plarkplark_> boost 1.47.0 and 1.53.0
2917 2013-04-25 19:16:16 <sipa> just a warning
2918 2013-04-25 19:16:19 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2919 2013-04-25 19:16:24 kadoban_ has joined
2920 2013-04-25 19:16:27 jiffe98 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2921 2013-04-25 19:16:27 new299_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2922 2013-04-25 19:16:47 ByronJohnson has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2923 2013-04-25 19:16:52 <Plarkplark_> ill post it on pastebin :) please wait
2924 2013-04-25 19:17:18 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: any update on pull-tester?
2925 2013-04-25 19:17:19 guest892835 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2926 2013-04-25 19:17:36 new299_ has joined
2927 2013-04-25 19:17:37 guest892735 has joined
2928 2013-04-25 19:17:45 <Plarkplark_> sipa: http://pastebin.com/nw1pkuqY
2929 2013-04-25 19:17:47 ByronJohnson has joined
2930 2013-04-25 19:17:47 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: were you waiting on me to do something? I lost track
2931 2013-04-25 19:17:57 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: same error message last time I ran it
2932 2013-04-25 19:18:04 <BlueMatt> Im pretty sure I ran it after you last updated
2933 2013-04-25 19:18:07 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2934 2013-04-25 19:18:07 Sleepnbum has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2935 2013-04-25 19:18:14 Bjander has joined
2936 2013-04-25 19:18:18 <sipa> gavinandresen, BlueMatt: what's the problem?
2937 2013-04-25 19:18:27 EPiSKiNG- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2938 2013-04-25 19:18:29 <BlueMatt> http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/master/test.log
2939 2013-04-25 19:18:30 <gavinandresen> let me put it on my TODO, I'm in the middle of debugging and don't want to switch contexts
2940 2013-04-25 19:18:33 viperhr has joined
2941 2013-04-25 19:18:35 <BlueMatt> np
2942 2013-04-25 19:18:59 <The_Fly> CodeShark: any way to fetch the outputs i need in building a transaction?
2943 2013-04-25 19:18:59 Hawkwood has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2944 2013-04-25 19:19:01 <Plarkplark_> I think it comes down to: c:\mingw\bin\../lib/gcc/mingw32/4.6.2/../../../../include/pthread.h:585:24: fout
2945 2013-04-25 19:19:02 <Plarkplark_> : conflicting declaration 'typedef struct ptw32_handle_t pthread_t'
2946 2013-04-25 19:19:02 <Plarkplark_> src/util.h:555:16: fout: 'pthread_t' has a previous declaration as 'typedef void
2947 2013-04-25 19:19:02 <Plarkplark_> * pthread_t'
2948 2013-04-25 19:19:05 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2949 2013-04-25 19:19:10 <sipa> Plarkplark_: indeed
2950 2013-04-25 19:19:12 <etotheipi_> sipa: gmaxwell: gavinandresen: someone: can you look at this error and tell me if you've seen it before? I just wasted 2 hours tracking this down: http://pastebin.com/wNfAcxbL
2951 2013-04-25 19:19:15 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2952 2013-04-25 19:19:15 <The_Fly> and i guess also would be sueful to turn off blockchain syncing
2953 2013-04-25 19:19:19 <sipa> Plarkplark_: talk to Diapolo or diki
2954 2013-04-25 19:19:28 <HM2> hmm
2955 2013-04-25 19:19:36 <etotheipi_> is that just a standard corrupted wallet? or too-old-to-be-read-now wallet?
2956 2013-04-25 19:19:37 <sipa> Plarkplark_: they're the only ones known to have succesfully compiled on windows
2957 2013-04-25 19:19:37 i2pRelay has joined
2958 2013-04-25 19:19:51 wizkid057 has joined
2959 2013-04-25 19:20:07 kadoban has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2960 2013-04-25 19:20:22 EPiSKiNG- has joined
2961 2013-04-25 19:20:23 EPiSKiNG- is now known as Guest40136
2962 2013-04-25 19:20:25 <sipa> etotheipi_: not normal no, i'd guess something like disk full
2963 2013-04-25 19:20:58 <Plarkplark_> sipa wow. Is it that hard? :\
2964 2013-04-25 19:21:07 <sipa> Plarkplark_: it's mostly not maintained
2965 2013-04-25 19:21:31 <etotheipi_> sipa: just checked... 130 GB full
2966 2013-04-25 19:21:33 qwebirc47597 has joined
2967 2013-04-25 19:21:38 <etotheipi_> err.. 130 GB free
2968 2013-04-25 19:21:40 Belkaar has joined
2969 2013-04-25 19:21:47 <sipa> etotheipi_: anything in db.log?
2970 2013-04-25 19:22:00 <etotheipi_> oh crap, I probabl ydestroyed it
2971 2013-04-25 19:22:08 <etotheipi_> hold on (it's on my girlfriend's computer)
2972 2013-04-25 19:22:14 <etotheipi_> (what a great first exposure to Bitcoin!)
2973 2013-04-25 19:22:32 <sipa> avoid success at all costs
2974 2013-04-25 19:23:13 PartTimeLegend has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2975 2013-04-25 19:23:25 jiffe98 has joined
2976 2013-04-25 19:23:57 SwedFTP has joined
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2978 2013-04-25 19:23:57 SwedFTP has joined
2979 2013-04-25 19:24:15 bitcoinbulletin has joined
2980 2013-04-25 19:24:27 ovidiusoft has joined
2981 2013-04-25 19:25:40 <etotheipi_> sipa: ahhh, I am used to overlooking db.log because it's usually empty
2982 2013-04-25 19:25:49 <etotheipi_> a lot of panic messages, hold on
2983 2013-04-25 19:26:37 <CodeShark> The_Fly: bitcoind does not index outputs by address - so unless such an index were added, it would be extremely inefficient to query bitcoind for arbitrary outputs
2984 2013-04-25 19:26:48 <CodeShark> for a wallet
2985 2013-04-25 19:27:06 <CodeShark> it only indexes the wallet outputs
2986 2013-04-25 19:27:07 <etotheipi_> sipa: http://pastebin.com/QG8byKmH
2987 2013-04-25 19:27:07 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2988 2013-04-25 19:27:39 i2pRelay has joined
2989 2013-04-25 19:27:51 Gnaf has joined
2990 2013-04-25 19:28:03 JDuke128 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2991 2013-04-25 19:28:26 Tril_ has joined
2992 2013-04-25 19:28:29 darkee has joined
2993 2013-04-25 19:28:30 <sipa> etotheipi_: looks like you moved a wallet.dat file without clean shutdown?
2994 2013-04-25 19:28:51 <etotheipi_> sipa: oh, you mean I moved it while bitcoind was running?
2995 2013-04-25 19:29:08 <sipa> or that
2996 2013-04-25 19:29:15 <etotheipi_> well, I wouldn't do that intentionally
2997 2013-04-25 19:29:26 <etotheipi_> what if I deleted everything *except* wallet.dat while it was running?
2998 2013-04-25 19:29:28 <etotheipi_> (which is what I did)
2999 2013-04-25 19:29:38 <etotheipi_> (I mean, I didn't think it was running)
3000 2013-04-25 19:29:57 <sipa> no idea, sounds bad :)
3001 2013-04-25 19:30:16 JDuke128 has joined
3002 2013-04-25 19:30:16 xenesis has joined
3003 2013-04-25 19:30:17 <The_Fly> CodeShark: thanks
3004 2013-04-25 19:30:24 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
3005 2013-04-25 19:30:31 <etotheipi_> sipa: whatever... it's working now... the wallet has no BTC in it
3006 2013-04-25 19:30:35 <etotheipi_> so I'll move on with my life
3007 2013-04-25 19:30:44 <The_Fly> CodeShark: looks like i should just drop the idea for now
3008 2013-04-25 19:31:33 <The_Fly> more trouble thatn it's worth :)
3009 2013-04-25 19:32:13 <The_Fly> probably should have given up a while ago
3010 2013-04-25 19:32:30 <CodeShark> The_Fly: it's a wonderful idea...and I'd like to see it implemented correctly. But implementing it correctly isn't completely trivial
3011 2013-04-25 19:32:39 ColinT has joined
3012 2013-04-25 19:33:03 <The_Fly> yeah, not worth the hassle, and im not equipped to even begin to try atm
3013 2013-04-25 19:33:56 <The_Fly> i suppose can transfer funds over to an offline wallet to minimise any potential dammage by hackers
3014 2013-04-25 19:34:18 <The_Fly> bu that's not always possible
3015 2013-04-25 19:34:23 <The_Fly> e.g. in a casino context
3016 2013-04-25 19:34:27 <The_Fly> cashin/ou
3017 2013-04-25 19:34:30 <The_Fly> *t
3018 2013-04-25 19:35:08 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3019 2013-04-25 19:35:45 i2pRelay has joined
3020 2013-04-25 19:37:03 Varan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3021 2013-04-25 19:38:11 <nospinzy> if someone has the time i realy need a step thru about how to execute this
3022 2013-04-25 19:38:12 <nospinzy> http://blockchain.info/api/blockchain_wallet_api
3023 2013-04-25 19:38:26 <The_Fly> CodeShark: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2124
3024 2013-04-25 19:38:31 <The_Fly> thats you
3025 2013-04-25 19:38:42 <CodeShark> I recognize that :p
3026 2013-04-25 19:38:54 jtimon has joined
3027 2013-04-25 19:39:05 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3028 2013-04-25 19:40:02 <The_Fly> hm, perhaps the main bitcoind could assist the wallet instance in attaining the data it needs
3029 2013-04-25 19:40:09 <The_Fly> via rpc
3030 2013-04-25 19:40:26 <sipa> what's the point?
3031 2013-04-25 19:40:31 <sipa> if they need to talk, let them talk
3032 2013-04-25 19:40:31 qwebirc47597 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3033 2013-04-25 19:40:50 <The_Fly> wat?
3034 2013-04-25 19:40:59 grau has joined
3035 2013-04-25 19:41:12 <sipa> why would you let them talk via rpc, but not via p2p?
3036 2013-04-25 19:41:50 <The_Fly> again, i dont want to repeat blockchain data over multiple boxes
3037 2013-04-25 19:42:06 Guest40136 is now known as EPiSKiNG-
3038 2013-04-25 19:42:14 <sipa> how are you going to prevent that?
3039 2013-04-25 19:42:17 EPiSKiNG- has quit (Changing host)
3040 2013-04-25 19:42:17 EPiSKiNG- has joined
3041 2013-04-25 19:42:21 <The_Fly> and if the wallet instance doesn't have the blockchain it cant get the inputs for the transaction
3042 2013-04-25 19:42:29 <CodeShark> sipa: it seems he just wants to store outputs and keys on one machine
3043 2013-04-25 19:42:32 Wayward- is now known as Wayward
3044 2013-04-25 19:42:36 <CodeShark> and not the full block chain
3045 2013-04-25 19:42:38 <sipa> sure, but you don't need bitcoind for that
3046 2013-04-25 19:42:42 <The_Fly> yes, i know
3047 2013-04-25 19:43:00 <The_Fly> but theres no way to get what i need from bitcoind to send from a wallet
3048 2013-04-25 19:43:10 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3049 2013-04-25 19:43:20 <The_Fly> right?
3050 2013-04-25 19:43:33 <CodeShark> The_Fly: there is, via the p2p protocol
3051 2013-04-25 19:43:42 i2pRelay has joined
3052 2013-04-25 19:43:43 <The_Fly> oh, ok
3053 2013-04-25 19:43:45 rbecker is now known as RBecker
3054 2013-04-25 19:43:53 <The_Fly> but you're saying the transactions arent indexed by address
3055 2013-04-25 19:44:11 torsthaldo has joined
3056 2013-04-25 19:44:15 <CodeShark> The_Fly: correct - which means you'll have to go through the block chain and find your transactions
3057 2013-04-25 19:44:18 nus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3058 2013-04-25 19:44:26 <darksk1ez> Woah that last block was _fast_
3059 2013-04-25 19:44:28 nus has joined
3060 2013-04-25 19:44:28 <CodeShark> The_Fly: however, you don't need to store the block chain
3061 2013-04-25 19:44:29 <The_Fly> balls
3062 2013-04-25 19:44:47 <The_Fly> i have to go backwards through it on every transaction?
3063 2013-04-25 19:44:55 <sipa> no
3064 2013-04-25 19:44:55 <The_Fly> i suppose querying balance is also problematic
3065 2013-04-25 19:45:05 <darksk1ez> 10 seconds
3066 2013-04-25 19:45:08 <sipa> just put an encrypted wallet on one machine
3067 2013-04-25 19:45:10 phr0gt00 has quit (Quit: leaving)
3068 2013-04-25 19:45:12 ThomasV has joined
3069 2013-04-25 19:45:19 <sipa> have it see incoming transactions
3070 2013-04-25 19:45:19 <CodeShark> sipa: but that requires synching the wallets
3071 2013-04-25 19:45:26 <sipa> yes, or a huge keypool
3072 2013-04-25 19:45:27 <CodeShark> or using a huge key pool
3073 2013-04-25 19:45:30 johnsoft1 is now known as johnsoft
3074 2013-04-25 19:45:39 <sipa> it can still be automated, though
3075 2013-04-25 19:45:49 <sipa> but yes, watch-only addresses is the correct solution here
3076 2013-04-25 19:45:58 <The_Fly> i see
3077 2013-04-25 19:46:55 <The_Fly> key pool is required why?
3078 2013-04-25 19:47:18 <CodeShark> otherwise you'll have to send the entire wallet over each time you generate a new key
3079 2013-04-25 19:47:35 <The_Fly> ah, ok...
3080 2013-04-25 19:47:52 <CodeShark> unless you use 2121, but that's not my favorite solution either
3081 2013-04-25 19:48:07 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3082 2013-04-25 19:48:14 Bjander has joined
3083 2013-04-25 19:48:40 <The_Fly> so a p2p client which listens on the addresses in the address pool is enough?
3084 2013-04-25 19:48:51 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3085 2013-04-25 19:48:53 <The_Fly> filter
3086 2013-04-25 19:48:55 <The_Fly> sorry
3087 2013-04-25 19:49:11 <The_Fly> and i store those in a db of some description
3088 2013-04-25 19:49:17 <CodeShark> you need to be able to recover after downtime...and you need to trust the bitcoind instance...but other than that, yeah
3089 2013-04-25 19:49:31 <The_Fly> i can trust the instance on my network right?
3090 2013-04-25 19:49:34 ProfMac has joined
3091 2013-04-25 19:49:43 <The_Fly> assuming it is connected to good peers
3092 2013-04-25 19:50:21 <The_Fly> yeah, after downtime perhaps i can query the main bitcoind and walk the blockchain?
3093 2013-04-25 19:50:25 <CodeShark> a trusted node should be able to discern good and bad peers by itself
3094 2013-04-25 19:50:28 <CodeShark> that's one of the features of it :)
3095 2013-04-25 19:50:53 <The_Fly> repopulate my db on start up
3096 2013-04-25 19:51:13 <The_Fly> perhaps if bitcoind could return a list of transactions for a given address set
3097 2013-04-25 19:51:13 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3098 2013-04-25 19:51:17 <The_Fly> in a single query
3099 2013-04-25 19:51:18 michagogo_ has joined
3100 2013-04-25 19:51:20 <The_Fly> that would be handy
3101 2013-04-25 19:51:24 <The_Fly> in this case
3102 2013-04-25 19:51:26 <CodeShark> it can...if you use 2121
3103 2013-04-25 19:51:33 <The_Fly> ah.....ok
3104 2013-04-25 19:51:41 michagogo has quit (Killed (asimov.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
3105 2013-04-25 19:51:41 michagogo_ is now known as michagogo
3106 2013-04-25 19:51:45 i2pRelay has joined
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3108 2013-04-25 19:51:52 rowit1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3109 2013-04-25 19:51:54 <CodeShark> but again, I'd prefer a solution where the wallet app is smart enough to recover via p2p alone
3110 2013-04-25 19:51:59 <The_Fly> so the missing piece is how to create a raw transaction
3111 2013-04-25 19:52:30 <The_Fly> ark@ would that not be slow?
3112 2013-04-25 19:52:32 copumpkin has joined
3113 2013-04-25 19:52:39 <The_Fly> llol * CodeShark :
3114 2013-04-25 19:52:53 <The_Fly> i cant query the p2p network with such a request
3115 2013-04-25 19:53:08 <The_Fly> in:set of addrs _> out:set of tx
3116 2013-04-25 19:53:09 michagogo_ has joined
3117 2013-04-25 19:53:09 <CodeShark> if you trust the bitcoind instance, then you can save a lot of computation on the wallet end by not performing verifications
3118 2013-04-25 19:53:18 michagogo has quit (Killed (moorcock.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
3119 2013-04-25 19:53:18 michagogo_ is now known as michagogo
3120 2013-04-25 19:53:22 <The_Fly> i see
3121 2013-04-25 19:53:38 <The_Fly> and i could trust my main bitcoind right?
3122 2013-04-25 19:53:57 <The_Fly> as it will be doing verifications itself
3123 2013-04-25 19:54:02 <CodeShark> furthermore, it is sufficient that you remember only a few block hashes and heights whi
3124 2013-04-25 19:54:30 <CodeShark> for instance, if you remember a consecutive set of 20 block hashes and heights, then to recover from downtime you only need to query for what came after that
3125 2013-04-25 19:54:40 <The_Fly> i see
3126 2013-04-25 19:54:45 <CodeShark> and even if there was a fork, unless it was a very big fork, you'll find the correct chain
3127 2013-04-25 19:55:07 <The_Fly> so i only store the hashes and heights?
3128 2013-04-25 19:55:11 <The_Fly> and transactions?
3129 2013-04-25 19:55:27 <CodeShark> yeah, unless you want to go to SPV
3130 2013-04-25 19:55:34 <CodeShark> short of SPV, I think that's the best solution
3131 2013-04-25 19:55:39 <The_Fly> i saw spv, no dont think so
3132 2013-04-25 19:56:45 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3133 2013-04-25 19:57:26 <CodeShark> you could even store several hundred block hashes and heights if you're paranoid
3134 2013-04-25 19:57:30 <CodeShark> it isn't too much to store
3135 2013-04-25 19:57:35 <CodeShark> heck, store several thousand :)
3136 2013-04-25 19:57:42 <CodeShark> but you don't need to store the entire chain
3137 2013-04-25 19:58:06 <The_Fly> k, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transactions
3138 2013-04-25 19:58:12 <The_Fly> i only see height mentioned once here
3139 2013-04-25 19:58:21 Plinker_ has joined
3140 2013-04-25 19:58:22 <The_Fly> and nothing regarding block hash
3141 2013-04-25 19:58:23 <CodeShark> the only use case where you could conceivably need to rescan the chain is if you add a key to the wallet that has already been used in the past
3142 2013-04-25 19:58:30 <CodeShark> or if the wallet db gets corrupted
3143 2013-04-25 19:58:45 <The_Fly> i see
3144 2013-04-25 19:58:55 <The_Fly> probably will not need to do tha with an addr pool
3145 2013-04-25 19:58:58 <diki> In the bitcoin code, where is CENT used instead of COIN, and why?
3146 2013-04-25 19:59:19 <CodeShark> The_Fly: for block hash info, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification
3147 2013-04-25 19:59:20 <sipa> CENT is 0.01 BTC, COIN is 1.00 BTC
3148 2013-04-25 19:59:35 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3149 2013-04-25 19:59:40 <The_Fly> ty CodeShark
3150 2013-04-25 20:00:31 i2pRelay has joined
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3187 2013-04-25 20:32:42 <BlueMatt> wait, if the "official" B logo has one bar, why does the B logo in Bitcoin-Qt have 2 bars?
3188 2013-04-25 20:32:55 <The_Fly> upgrade
3189 2013-04-25 20:33:06 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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3191 2013-04-25 20:33:29 <BlueMatt> Im running master....
3192 2013-04-25 20:34:09 <The_Fly> no i meant, the double line is an upgrade
3193 2013-04-25 20:34:13 <The_Fly> upgraded branding
3194 2013-04-25 20:34:18 <The_Fly> two is better than one
3195 2013-04-25 20:34:27 <BlueMatt> its also stealing the currency symbol of an existing currency?
3196 2013-04-25 20:34:29 <sipa> BlueMatt: what "official" logo are you talking about?
3197 2013-04-25 20:34:49 <Jearil> I try to run bitcoind with -gen=1 (for testnet in a box) and my hasespersec is always 0. Any way to get it to work?
3198 2013-04-25 20:35:02 <BlueMatt> well I asked why we have stuck with stealing the bhat logo a few days ago and the response I got was "it has one bar, the bhat has 2, so we didnt steal it"
3199 2013-04-25 20:35:04 <Jearil> or was that removed from bitcoind or something?
3200 2013-04-25 20:35:22 Elmf has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3201 2013-04-25 20:35:58 <sipa> BlueMatt: the Thai Baht symbol here has one bar (the unicode character0
3202 2013-04-25 20:36:01 <BlueMatt> or is it the other way?
3203 2013-04-25 20:36:05 <BlueMatt> ahh
3204 2013-04-25 20:36:10 <BlueMatt> ok, well whatever...
3205 2013-04-25 20:36:21 <sipa> lol: https://www.google.be/search?q=thai+baht+symbol&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=OY55UYntNefm7AbJk4GoDg&ved=0CHgQsAQ&biw=910&bih=470
3206 2013-04-25 20:36:31 <sipa> search for thai baht symbol, and get the bitcoin logo :p
3207 2013-04-25 20:36:44 <BlueMatt> see? I still think it was a bad idea
3208 2013-04-25 20:36:47 Elmf has joined
3209 2013-04-25 20:36:54 <sipa> they are distinct, though
3210 2013-04-25 20:37:00 <BlueMatt> barely...
3211 2013-04-25 20:37:07 <sipa> "meh"
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3219 2013-04-25 20:42:22 <Hello2> Hello! :=
3220 2013-04-25 20:42:23 <Hello2> Wanted to share a new programming forum: http://thedevshed.net/forum/
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3288 2013-04-25 21:16:06 <Linguifex> Hello. I'm encountering difficulty in attempting to set up Bitcoin.
3289 2013-04-25 21:16:09 <Linguifex> I'm using Mac OS X Leopard.
3290 2013-04-25 21:16:18 <Linguifex> I've been trying to work with Bitcoin-Qt.
3291 2013-04-25 21:16:41 <Linguifex> The blockchain managed to download to just under 100% when my computer crapped out.
3292 2013-04-25 21:17:12 <Linguifex> When I restarted the app after restarting the computer it gave me some dialog box I can't remember.
3293 2013-04-25 21:17:22 <Linguifex> It then started "Reindexing blocks on diskâ¦"
3294 2013-04-25 21:17:26 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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3296 2013-04-25 21:18:01 <sipa> ok, so your database was corrupted, this was detected at startup, it asked you whether you wanted to rebuild the database now, and that's what it's doing
3297 2013-04-25 21:18:07 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3298 2013-04-25 21:18:08 <Linguifex> Yes.
3299 2013-04-25 21:18:14 Bjander has joined
3300 2013-04-25 21:18:17 <Linguifex> It looked to me like it got partway through and then stopped.
3301 2013-04-25 21:18:27 <Linguifex> Upon rechecking just now it seems like the rebuilding is actually progressing, albeit slowlyâ¦
3302 2013-04-25 21:18:42 <Linguifex> Will this process take as long to accomplish as the initial download, to a first approximation?
3303 2013-04-25 21:18:49 <sipa> somewhat faster
3304 2013-04-25 21:18:51 <sipa> but not so much
3305 2013-04-25 21:19:05 <sipa> maintaining the database is the hardest part
3306 2013-04-25 21:19:19 <Linguifex> I didn't think about downloading the blockchain until AFTER I started the app
3307 2013-04-25 21:19:32 <Linguifex> Started it and halfway through a three-hour movie it was, like, 60% done, so I'm thinking "cool"
3308 2013-04-25 21:19:37 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3309 2013-04-25 21:19:45 <Linguifex> Apparently the size has grown exponentially though
3310 2013-04-25 21:19:46 crank has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3311 2013-04-25 21:19:51 <sipa> yes
3312 2013-04-25 21:19:58 <sipa> well, not exponentially, but it has grown a lot
3313 2013-04-25 21:20:04 <Linguifex> ~exponentially.
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3315 2013-04-25 21:20:13 <sipa> also, the part at the end has signature checking enabled
3316 2013-04-25 21:20:19 <sipa> which is even more cpu intensive
3317 2013-04-25 21:20:53 <Linguifex> If I have to shut the computer down for some reason (e.g., I'm at the library right now and have to get going before it closes), will it pick back up where it left off?
3318 2013-04-25 21:21:04 <Linguifex> (Or at least close the app, if not shut it down)
3319 2013-04-25 21:21:17 <sipa> yes
3320 2013-04-25 21:21:21 <sipa> if you exit cleanly
3321 2013-04-25 21:21:23 <Linguifex> Ah.
3322 2013-04-25 21:21:33 <Linguifex> I had to exit messily when the computer just about crapped out.
3323 2013-04-25 21:21:36 <Linguifex> Hence the problem.
3324 2013-04-25 21:21:49 <sipa> (it should also work otherwise, but apparently that just doesn't work as well as we'd like)
3325 2013-04-25 21:21:54 <Linguifex> ?
3326 2013-04-25 21:22:01 <Linguifex> Oh
3327 2013-04-25 21:22:16 <sipa> i've personally never ever been able to corrupt my database, except intentionally
3328 2013-04-25 21:22:37 <sipa> even with forcefully killing the program and things like that
3329 2013-04-25 21:22:57 <sipa> but that's not the case for everyone, apparently
3330 2013-04-25 21:23:13 <Linguifex> Yeah
3331 2013-04-25 21:23:27 <Linguifex> I depressed the power button until the computer shut down
3332 2013-04-25 21:23:40 <Linguifex> My network was at 0 up/0 down and some of my programs were hanging
3333 2013-04-25 21:24:13 <Linguifex> I didn't want to go through the trouble of trying to "properly" shut it down and get it messed up even worse so I just killed it
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3339 2013-04-25 21:25:51 <Linguifex> Well, thank you, sipa!
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3376 2013-04-25 21:38:47 <Luke-Jr> + killall wineserver services.exe explorer.exe winedevice.exe
3377 2013-04-25 21:38:48 <Luke-Jr> bash: line 59: killall: command not found
3378 2013-04-25 21:38:50 <Luke-Jr> ^ lol?
3379 2013-04-25 21:38:55 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt_:
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3388 2013-04-25 21:43:58 <helo> killall eww
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3414 2013-04-25 21:53:19 <pjorrit_> eww? damn handy ;D
3415 2013-04-25 21:53:33 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt_: deps-win32 apparently needs psmisc pkg now
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3439 2013-04-25 22:10:37 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt_: or use pkill
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3443 2013-04-25 22:12:50 <cjsw3> is there any issue doing keypool=100000 or so?
3444 2013-04-25 22:13:14 shurnormal has joined
3445 2013-04-25 22:13:23 <Luke-Jr> cjsw3: just sounds like a bad idea :p
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3448 2013-04-25 22:16:14 <cjsw3> Luke-Jr: Fair enough. is there a limit that people have done with no issues? I'd really like 10K
3449 2013-04-25 22:16:25 i2pRelay has joined
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3452 2013-04-25 22:17:45 <sipa> 10k should be doable
3453 2013-04-25 22:18:24 <Luke-Jr> cjsw3: bad idea because I'd hope we switch to HD wallets before you'd go through 5k
3454 2013-04-25 22:18:45 <sipa> Luke-Jr: how is that relevant?
3455 2013-04-25 22:19:14 <sipa> if he needs 10k keys, he'll need 10k keys with HD wallets too
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3457 2013-04-25 22:19:56 <Luke-Jr> sipa: but they'll be deterministic with HD wallets
3458 2013-04-25 22:20:56 Linguifex has quit (Quit: Good night, and God bless.)
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3460 2013-04-25 22:21:03 <sipa> so?
3461 2013-04-25 22:21:24 <sipa> once he created them now, they're deterministic too
3462 2013-04-25 22:21:29 <sipa> even better, they're constant
3463 2013-04-25 22:21:33 <Luke-Jr> â¦
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3465 2013-04-25 22:21:50 <sipa> determinism only matters for the keys you haven't generated yet
3466 2013-04-25 22:22:05 <Luke-Jr> hence why I'd put off creating them :P
3467 2013-04-25 22:22:07 <cjsw3> This is the HD wallets spec? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0032
3468 2013-04-25 22:22:11 <sipa> indeed
3469 2013-04-25 22:22:18 <Scrat> cjsw3: just make sure you run the thing on an ssd
3470 2013-04-25 22:22:37 mE\Ta has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3471 2013-04-25 22:22:37 <Luke-Jr> Scrat: O.o
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3474 2013-04-25 22:22:51 <phantomcircuit> cjsw3, major performance issues come up at keypool=100000
3475 2013-04-25 22:22:53 <Scrat> big wallets -> ssd required
3476 2013-04-25 22:23:02 <cjsw3> Scrat: That's not really an option unfortunately
3477 2013-04-25 22:23:24 <phantomcircuit> cjsw3, what's this for maybe someone can suggest a better solution
3478 2013-04-25 22:23:44 <Luke-Jr> Scrat: even w/ just kids?
3479 2013-04-25 22:23:45 <Luke-Jr> keys*
3480 2013-04-25 22:23:47 <cjsw3> ok. maybe i'll do 1K for now and hold out for HD wallets
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3482 2013-04-25 22:24:07 <cjsw3> just need a pool of receiving addresses
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3486 2013-04-25 22:24:31 <cjsw3> and it would be nice to have a backup that is slightly futureproof
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3489 2013-04-25 22:25:25 <Scrat> Luke-Jr: just my observation from running it on different server hardware
3490 2013-04-25 22:25:46 <Scrat> would completely become unresponsive once %wa crept up
3491 2013-04-25 22:25:51 jchp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
3492 2013-04-25 22:26:02 <Scrat> while other daemons wouldnt
3493 2013-04-25 22:26:07 Sealy has quit (Quit: Sealy)
3494 2013-04-25 22:26:07 <Scrat> i dont know what its doing seriously :p
3495 2013-04-25 22:26:21 oMoM0dopolous is now known as owowodopolous
3496 2013-04-25 22:26:24 <phantomcircuit> cjsw3, i'd suggest having more than 1 running bitcoind
3497 2013-04-25 22:26:31 jchp has joined
3498 2013-04-25 22:26:49 <phantomcircuit> it's fairly easy to do if you're careful and of course maintain lots of backups
3499 2013-04-25 22:28:20 skeledrew1 has joined
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3502 2013-04-25 22:29:47 <cjsw3> phantomcircuit: do you mean on the same machine? i'm not sure why that would help
3503 2013-04-25 22:30:21 <cjsw3> with 500 addresses i'm seeing hardly any diskio wait
3504 2013-04-25 22:30:22 <phantomcircuit> cjsw3, the wallet code is currently impractically slow for high volumes of transactions
3505 2013-04-25 22:30:42 <phantomcircuit> by running multiple daemons you're effectively making their operation independent and parallel
3506 2013-04-25 22:30:43 <cjsw3> ok i maybe should have been clearer. not doing so many transactions
3507 2013-04-25 22:30:56 <cjsw3> but i need unique receiving addresses
3508 2013-04-25 22:31:03 <phantomcircuit> ok then you're only issue is really the time it will take to load the wallet when you start
3509 2013-04-25 22:31:06 lmacken_ has joined
3510 2013-04-25 22:31:10 <phantomcircuit> 10k addresses doesn't take very long
3511 2013-04-25 22:31:17 <phantomcircuit> and im guessing you'll never use that many
3512 2013-04-25 22:31:30 <cjsw3> probably <1 transaction / min
3513 2013-04-25 22:31:50 ColinT has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
3514 2013-04-25 22:31:58 <phantomcircuit> an easy way to keep track of all of this is to actually move the addresses from the keypool to being active addresses
3515 2013-04-25 22:32:05 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3516 2013-04-25 22:32:19 <Scrat> most outgoing transactions add an extra address too
3517 2013-04-25 22:32:22 <phantomcircuit> then instead of doing an rpc call simply mark the address as used in your database
3518 2013-04-25 22:32:29 i2pRelay has joined
3519 2013-04-25 22:32:41 <phantomcircuit> Scrat, right
3520 2013-04-25 22:33:10 one_zero has joined
3521 2013-04-25 22:33:17 <phantomcircuit> when you've used 50% of the addresses generate more and make another backup
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3528 2013-04-25 22:35:01 <cjsw3> k thanks for your help. i'll go with 2K for now and then work something out once we hit that
3529 2013-04-25 22:36:11 <cjsw3> actually any idea of how startup time is influenced by key growth? is it linear? (assuming syncd block chain)
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3537 2013-04-25 22:40:10 <gmaxwell> sipa: thats actually fantastic news if your patch makes it more unreliable on windows I think.
3538 2013-04-25 22:40:18 torsthaldo has joined
3539 2013-04-25 22:40:27 <gmaxwell> sipa: because it may give us a easy test case to figure out _why_ leveldb seems unreliable on windows.
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3543 2013-04-25 22:42:54 <The_Fly> strange behaviour from walletnotify, sends a few tx on bitcoind startup
3544 2013-04-25 22:43:01 <The_Fly> im assuming that these are just from the latest block
3545 2013-04-25 22:44:37 Bjander has quit (Quit: Cellphone IRC... the worst kind...)
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3547 2013-04-25 22:46:12 <Scrat> The_Fly: not strange at all, and it wont only happen on latest blocks
3548 2013-04-25 22:46:53 <Scrat> it will trigger on any block inclusion of a TX affecting the wallet, even it if happened ages ago
3549 2013-04-25 22:47:15 <The_Fly> the confusion is that i see only a couple of the latest tx
3550 2013-04-25 22:47:25 <The_Fly> not all past tx which affect the wallet
3551 2013-04-25 22:47:36 xfigue has left ()
3552 2013-04-25 22:47:49 <Scrat> those were fired when they got included
3553 2013-04-25 22:47:50 <The_Fly> and my only thought for why that might be is because they are in the best block
3554 2013-04-25 22:47:57 <The_Fly> hm...
3555 2013-04-25 22:48:03 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3556 2013-04-25 22:48:04 <The_Fly> but they're duplicates, i saw them fire
3557 2013-04-25 22:48:10 Cals has quit (Quit: +)
3558 2013-04-25 22:48:12 <The_Fly> perhaps they were the first confirmation
3559 2013-04-25 22:48:22 <Scrat> sure, it triggers on mempool inclusion
3560 2013-04-25 22:48:26 caput has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3561 2013-04-25 22:48:34 i2pRelay has joined
3562 2013-04-25 22:48:47 <The_Fly> ok, not really a problem to filter duplicates
3563 2013-04-25 22:48:51 <The_Fly> with a findOrCreate
3564 2013-04-25 22:49:18 <Scrat> if your bitcoind is up while it's included in a block (1st confirmation) then it will trigger
3565 2013-04-25 22:49:22 rdymac has joined
3566 2013-04-25 22:49:25 <Scrat> otherwise it will trigger while syncing
3567 2013-04-25 22:49:38 <The_Fly> i see
3568 2013-04-25 22:49:52 rowit1 has joined
3569 2013-04-25 22:50:16 <The_Fly> at that point im not able to call gettransaction?
3570 2013-04-25 22:50:24 caput has joined
3571 2013-04-25 22:50:37 <The_Fly> not sure if server listens while syncing...
3572 2013-04-25 22:50:41 <sipa> it does
3573 2013-04-25 22:50:42 <Scrat> it might be slow but you should still be able to call it
3574 2013-04-25 22:50:45 <sipa> it's always syncing
3575 2013-04-25 22:51:06 <The_Fly> ok, just there's some "spin up" time with the blockchain loading
3576 2013-04-25 22:51:16 <The_Fly> or... whatever it is doing that im noobishly unaware of
3577 2013-04-25 22:51:26 <The_Fly> and i thought might kick off walletnotify then
3578 2013-04-25 22:51:44 <Scrat> if it's firing walletnotify, then it can receive rpc
3579 2013-04-25 22:51:59 <The_Fly> thanks Scrat
3580 2013-04-25 22:52:01 <Scrat> but you should handle connections errors/timeouts properly
3581 2013-04-25 22:52:06 <sipa> not necessarily, actually, but i doubt you're encounter that case
3582 2013-04-25 22:52:06 <The_Fly> indeed
3583 2013-04-25 22:52:18 <The_Fly> one more q, listsinceblock
3584 2013-04-25 22:52:26 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3585 2013-04-25 22:52:26 <The_Fly> is this good to call after downtime
3586 2013-04-25 22:52:33 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3587 2013-04-25 22:52:35 zrad has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3588 2013-04-25 22:52:36 <The_Fly> if i store the blockhash from blocknotify
3589 2013-04-25 22:52:43 <The_Fly> i'll see anything i missed?
3590 2013-04-25 22:53:15 <The_Fly> any tx i missed which affect my wallet
3591 2013-04-25 22:53:46 <Scrat> you don't need to do that. what does your walletnotify do?
3592 2013-04-25 22:53:52 rowit has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3593 2013-04-25 22:54:08 <The_Fly> ah...
3594 2013-04-25 22:54:25 <The_Fly> the penny drops :)
3595 2013-04-25 22:54:34 debiantoruser has joined
3596 2013-04-25 22:55:04 <Scrat> the only way you're going to miss a tx is if your walletnotify script doesn't hit your database
3597 2013-04-25 22:55:12 <The_Fly> ok
3598 2013-04-25 22:55:17 <Scrat> for whatever reason
3599 2013-04-25 22:55:48 <Scrat> which is still something that you should handle
3600 2013-04-25 22:55:48 <The_Fly> there's not a lot you could do about that
3601 2013-04-25 22:55:54 <Scrat> sure there is
3602 2013-04-25 22:56:05 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3603 2013-04-25 22:56:18 <The_Fly> you'd have to go through all transactions on the wallet no?
3604 2013-04-25 22:56:30 <Scrat> if you're using curl you can check its exit code and append the TX into a pending file or something
3605 2013-04-25 22:56:36 i2pRelay has joined
3606 2013-04-25 22:56:46 <Scrat> which is read on application start
3607 2013-04-25 22:56:59 <The_Fly> hm
3608 2013-04-25 22:57:01 <The_Fly> im forking a child_process in node to bitcoind
3609 2013-04-25 22:57:11 <The_Fly> and walletnotify is sending via socket
3610 2013-04-25 22:57:16 <Scrat> node is very heavy
3611 2013-04-25 22:57:37 jgarzik has joined
3612 2013-04-25 22:57:46 <The_Fly> sure, there are alternatives
3613 2013-04-25 22:57:47 <Scrat> but in that case it should be easy for you to add logic
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3616 2013-04-25 22:58:01 <The_Fly> yeah, it can dump to a file upon db error
3617 2013-04-25 22:58:21 <The_Fly> then what if the disk blows up :P
3618 2013-04-25 22:58:22 <Scrat> yeah otherwise you'll lose it
3619 2013-04-25 22:58:30 <The_Fly> have to rebuild from entire tx history
3620 2013-04-25 22:58:44 Btceldur has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
3621 2013-04-25 22:58:46 <michagogo> The Ubuntu repos have a package called bitcoind. If I were to run `sudo apt-get install bitcoind`, what would I get?
3622 2013-04-25 22:59:08 <jgarzik> word
3623 2013-04-25 22:59:13 <Scrat> michagogo: an old version, use the ppa
3624 2013-04-25 22:59:25 <The_Fly> Scrat: the reason for using node is redis/socket.io
3625 2013-04-25 22:59:32 <michagogo> How old is old, and why is that?
3626 2013-04-25 22:59:35 LainZ has joined
3627 2013-04-25 23:00:10 <The_Fly> sudo apt-add-repository ppa:bitcoin/bitcoin
3628 2013-04-25 23:00:20 <The_Fly> update, install bitcoind
3629 2013-04-25 23:00:28 <The_Fly> or compile from source
3630 2013-04-25 23:00:34 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3631 2013-04-25 23:00:36 <Scrat> The_Fly_: im just saying that it's not wise to fork a heavy V8 instance every time walletnotify hits
3632 2013-04-25 23:00:43 <The_Fly> no no no :)
3633 2013-04-25 23:00:48 <Scrat> obviously if you're only going to be processing a few transactions per day it wont matter
3634 2013-04-25 23:00:50 <The_Fly> im forking bitcoind within node
3635 2013-04-25 23:00:57 <The_Fly> you see?
3636 2013-04-25 23:00:58 <Scrat> im confused
3637 2013-04-25 23:01:01 debiantoruser has joined
3638 2013-04-25 23:01:02 <Scrat> why would you do that
3639 2013-04-25 23:01:28 <The_Fly> well, i could not do it, but then have to stick the named_socket ref somewhere outside, in a script
3640 2013-04-25 23:01:31 <The_Fly> ugly
3641 2013-04-25 23:01:36 <Scrat> argh, named sockets
3642 2013-04-25 23:01:51 <The_Fly> well... im actually just using a port
3643 2013-04-25 23:01:56 <The_Fly> tcp socket
3644 2013-04-25 23:01:59 <The_Fly> not fifo
3645 2013-04-25 23:02:35 <The_Fly> -walletnotify="printf %s | nc localhost 12345"
3646 2013-04-25 23:02:39 <The_Fly> hack.
3647 2013-04-25 23:03:21 <Scrat> so you're exec()ing bitcoind from node? why even do that
3648 2013-04-25 23:03:26 <Scrat> that walletnotify would work regadless
3649 2013-04-25 23:03:33 <The_Fly> i know
3650 2013-04-25 23:03:44 <The_Fly> its a matter of choice, no right/wrong really
3651 2013-04-25 23:03:49 <Scrat> the correct way is to use a process manager
3652 2013-04-25 23:04:05 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3653 2013-04-25 23:04:07 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3654 2013-04-25 23:04:11 <The_Fly> it is?
3655 2013-04-25 23:04:39 i2pRelay has joined
3656 2013-04-25 23:05:05 Plinker_ is now known as Plinker
3657 2013-04-25 23:05:14 <The_Fly> ok, i can divide it up better
3658 2013-04-25 23:05:37 gagecolton has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
3659 2013-04-25 23:06:00 <The_Fly> or run them both independantly
3660 2013-04-25 23:06:38 <The_Fly> or even just push to a redis queue
3661 2013-04-25 23:06:42 <The_Fly> whatever...
3662 2013-04-25 23:06:54 serp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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3664 2013-04-25 23:07:27 <The_Fly> what do you propose?
3665 2013-04-25 23:08:43 <Scrat> run them independently using upstart
3666 2013-04-25 23:09:00 <Scrat> or whatever daemon manager floats your boat
3667 2013-04-25 23:09:22 <The_Fly> and for communication between the processes...
3668 2013-04-25 23:09:33 <The_Fly> what im doing is fine in your opinion?
3669 2013-04-25 23:09:34 <Scrat> one that would handle stderr and crashes correctly
3670 2013-04-25 23:09:54 <Scrat> sure, but you need a fallback in case node is down
3671 2013-04-25 23:10:06 <The_Fly> ok, so over to a shell script perhaps
3672 2013-04-25 23:10:21 <The_Fly> which cats to file on fail
3673 2013-04-25 23:10:50 <The_Fly> ?
3674 2013-04-25 23:10:52 <The_Fly> is that "clean"
3675 2013-04-25 23:11:26 <The_Fly> the other question is on interprocess communication
3676 2013-04-25 23:11:35 <The_Fly> piping to nc... feels a bit hacky also
3677 2013-04-25 23:11:47 <Scrat> it is ugly yes
3678 2013-04-25 23:11:48 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
3679 2013-04-25 23:11:52 B0g4r7_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3680 2013-04-25 23:12:06 <The_Fly> python?
3681 2013-04-25 23:12:08 <Scrat> curl'ing node would be cleaner imo
3682 2013-04-25 23:12:11 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3683 2013-04-25 23:12:15 <The_Fly> that's heavier than nc
3684 2013-04-25 23:12:27 <Scrat> it is, are you going to run an exchange or what
3685 2013-04-25 23:12:41 <The_Fly> it might have quite a high frequency of transactions
3686 2013-04-25 23:12:42 i2pRelay has joined
3687 2013-04-25 23:12:50 <The_Fly> or at least i want it to scale to support that
3688 2013-04-25 23:14:18 <The_Fly> possibly the way to do it is to queue them up and process them in batches
3689 2013-04-25 23:14:18 michagogo has quit (Quit: goodnight)
3690 2013-04-25 23:14:25 B0g4r7_ has joined
3691 2013-04-25 23:14:27 <Scrat> lets take this to pm
3692 2013-04-25 23:14:30 <The_Fly> k
3693 2013-04-25 23:14:56 <Scrat> we dont want to awaken the gm4xwell
3694 2013-04-25 23:15:05 <The_Fly> :)
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3727 2013-04-25 23:43:48 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: where was that, and what does it have to do with me?
3728 2013-04-25 23:44:21 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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3732 2013-04-25 23:47:35 <gmaxwell> sipa: does windows have poll()?
3733 2013-04-25 23:47:46 <gmaxwell> I didn't think it did. (I thought that was why we used select in the first place)
3734 2013-04-25 23:48:26 <sipa> i defines struct pollfd in winsock2 in any case
3735 2013-04-25 23:49:31 o3u has joined
3736 2013-04-25 23:49:36 <gmaxwell> "WSAPoll() is present only in Windows of the 6th version (Vista) and higher"
3737 2013-04-25 23:49:39 <gmaxwell> hm.
3738 2013-04-25 23:50:12 <sipa> bleh
3739 2013-04-25 23:50:47 JTF195 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3740 2013-04-25 23:50:59 <sipa> we currently support XP and higher, afaik
3741 2013-04-25 23:51:01 zylche has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3742 2013-04-25 23:51:18 <gmaxwell> XP is still really common in the worldâ though I don't know how much for bitcoin users.
3743 2013-04-25 23:52:19 [Elementum] has joined
3744 2013-04-25 23:52:21 <fishfish> hi guys, quick question, i hope not toooooo dumb :) if you query bitcoind with jsonrpc, should you then parse the float it returns into decimals?
3745 2013-04-25 23:52:24 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3746 2013-04-25 23:52:56 i2pRelay has joined
3747 2013-04-25 23:56:31 <gmaxwell> fishfish: it returns a "float" â basically a decimal number that looks like a float in json.
3748 2013-04-25 23:56:44 <gmaxwell> So â yes, if by parse you mean do something that won't cause accuracy loss. :)
3749 2013-04-25 23:57:01 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: okay I have a question
3750 2013-04-25 23:57:05 <fishfish> gmaxwell: im getting rounding errors, yes
3751 2013-04-25 23:57:08 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: is rust thread safe internally?
3752 2013-04-25 23:57:10 <sipa> fishfish: internally, you should turn it into an integer
3753 2013-04-25 23:57:24 <jgarzik> well
3754 2013-04-25 23:57:25 <sipa> fishfish: if your language supports that
3755 2013-04-25 23:57:39 <jgarzik> JSON returns a "number" not a float
3756 2013-04-25 23:57:48 <jgarzik> up to you, to push it into a language-specific domain and meaning
3757 2013-04-25 23:58:19 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: yes, which is very dangerous
3758 2013-04-25 23:58:20 <Diablo-D3> AND
3759 2013-04-25 23:58:25 <Diablo-D3> its usually a float.
3760 2013-04-25 23:58:28 <Diablo-D3> which is REALLY dangerous
3761 2013-04-25 23:59:07 alex4 has joined
3762 2013-04-25 23:59:12 <gmaxwell> Diablo-D3: what jgarzik said is correct.
3763 2013-04-25 23:59:36 <fishfish> do you guys know if bitcoind ever ever returns more than 8 decimal places on amounts?
3764 2013-04-25 23:59:36 <alex4> how I can check chain total hash rate via some api call in linux?
3765 2013-04-25 23:59:52 <alex4> fishfish: not that I seen it
3766 2013-04-25 23:59:56 <fishfish> sweet