1 2013-04-26 00:00:11 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: oh yes, Im not disagreeing with it
2 2013-04-26 00:00:17 <Diablo-D3> its just that this is one of those sore spots in JS
3 2013-04-26 00:00:22 <Diablo-D3> its why I refuse to use it
4 2013-04-26 00:00:27 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
5 2013-04-26 00:00:32 <Diablo-D3> numbers MUST be typed. period.
6 2013-04-26 00:00:39 <sipa> fishfish: that's impossible, it only works with multiples of 0.00000001 BTC
7 2013-04-26 00:00:54 <fishfish> sipa: brilliant, thank you
8 2013-04-26 00:00:57 i2pRelay has joined
9 2013-04-26 00:01:15 <phantomcircuit> sipa, lol i've had people demand i send them 0.0000000001 btc
10 2013-04-26 00:01:21 <phantomcircuit> it's just like
11 2013-04-26 00:01:23 <phantomcircuit> HOW?
12 2013-04-26 00:01:28 <copumpkin> Diablo-D3: yeah, number and not-a-number! ;)
13 2013-04-26 00:01:35 <graingert> phantomcircuit: ? why?
14 2013-04-26 00:01:35 <copumpkin> how many more types do you want!?
15 2013-04-26 00:01:49 <qwertyoruiop> phantomcircuit: send me 100btc instead, i'm sure that's easier!
16 2013-04-26 00:01:49 <qwertyoruiop> :P
17 2013-04-26 00:02:08 <qwertyoruiop> you have to write less zeroes, hence it'll save your time
18 2013-04-26 00:02:10 <qwertyoruiop> gogogo
19 2013-04-26 00:02:14 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: you flip a coin with 1:100 probablity, and if you get heads you give them 1e-8 btc.
20 2013-04-26 00:02:16 JZavala has joined
21 2013-04-26 00:02:16 <phantomcircuit> graingert, intersango balances are 12 decimal places because fees can be for amounts > 0.00000001
22 2013-04-26 00:02:18 <Diablo-D3> copumpkin: (u)int8, (u)int16, (u)int32, (u)int64, bigint, half, float, double, quad, bigfloat
23 2013-04-26 00:02:26 <graingert> phantomcircuit: lol
24 2013-04-26 00:02:31 <copumpkin> Diablo-D3: I want moar
25 2013-04-26 00:02:37 <Diablo-D3> copumpkin: oh, and a packed 20 bit number to store unicode glyps in
26 2013-04-26 00:02:51 <phantomcircuit> graingert, i couldnt think of a sane way to round them without making the accounting a bitch so i just made them ridiculously precise
27 2013-04-26 00:02:52 <phantomcircuit> lol
28 2013-04-26 00:02:54 <sipa> Diablo-D3: you need 21 bits for that :p
29 2013-04-26 00:03:03 <Diablo-D3> er, 21 bit
30 2013-04-26 00:03:10 <Diablo-D3> I corrected myself =P
31 2013-04-26 00:03:12 <sipa> also, every language needs a built-in base phi type
32 2013-04-26 00:03:16 <Diablo-D3> you can fit 3 in a long long
33 2013-04-26 00:03:22 <copumpkin> longer long!
34 2013-04-26 00:03:24 <phantomcircuit> so people will demand their infintesimally small amount of btc on a pretty regular basis
35 2013-04-26 00:03:31 <phantomcircuit> which is just ridiculously annoying
36 2013-04-26 00:03:43 <copumpkin> big(u)int
37 2013-04-26 00:04:05 <Diablo-D3> copumpkin: bigint and bigfloat are unlimited precision types
38 2013-04-26 00:04:13 <copumpkin> so?
39 2013-04-26 00:04:16 <copumpkin> I still want a signed distinction
40 2013-04-26 00:04:24 <copumpkin> biguint might be called bignatural :P
41 2013-04-26 00:04:33 <sipa> just have Haskell's CReal
42 2013-04-26 00:04:34 * Diablo-D3 shrugs
43 2013-04-26 00:04:40 <alex4> getnetworkhashps does it work?
44 2013-04-26 00:04:43 <copumpkin> yeah, CReal is even better
45 2013-04-26 00:04:45 <copumpkin> than bigfloat
46 2013-04-26 00:04:49 <alex4> to get network total hash :)
47 2013-04-26 00:04:50 <Diablo-D3> 21 * 3 is funny
48 2013-04-26 00:04:56 ColinT has joined
49 2013-04-26 00:04:58 <sipa> ;;nethash
50 2013-04-26 00:04:59 <gribble> 74307.3386512
51 2013-04-26 00:05:02 <sipa> ^ alex4
52 2013-04-26 00:05:08 <Diablo-D3> its 64 bits
53 2013-04-26 00:05:08 <Diablo-D3> er
54 2013-04-26 00:05:08 <Diablo-D3> 63
55 2013-04-26 00:05:14 <Diablo-D3> the 64th can be used as a NULL
56 2013-04-26 00:05:17 <alex4> sipa lol yes I am curious how i can check it via bitcoind? :D
57 2013-04-26 00:05:23 <sipa> alex4: you can't
58 2013-04-26 00:05:25 Hawkwood has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
59 2013-04-26 00:05:28 <sipa> it's only an estimate anyway
60 2013-04-26 00:05:36 <alex4> oooo sipa I though it can check it
61 2013-04-26 00:05:59 <sipa> alex4: you can get the hashrate corresponding the difficulty though
62 2013-04-26 00:06:09 ProfMac has joined
63 2013-04-26 00:06:10 <sipa> ;;calc 2^48/65535/600
64 2013-04-26 00:06:12 <gribble> Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
65 2013-04-26 00:06:21 <sipa> ;;calc 2**48/65535/600/1000000000
66 2013-04-26 00:06:22 <gribble> 0.007158388055
67 2013-04-26 00:06:30 <alex4> sipa u mean i can figure out whats the rate based on current diff I see
68 2013-04-26 00:06:47 <sipa> alex4: multiply difficulty by 0.007158388, and you have the ~ hashrate in GH/s
69 2013-04-26 00:06:59 <sipa> ;;calc [diff]*0.007158388055
70 2013-04-26 00:07:00 <gribble> 64241.493395
71 2013-04-26 00:07:25 <Conflict> everyone read this about BFL's New Shipping Schema, leave a comment if you want, but def. vote on the poll! https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/2002-bfls-new-shipping-schema-poll.html
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73 2013-04-26 00:07:31 <alex4> 65535 is number of blocks to trigger diff increase?
74 2013-04-26 00:07:36 <sipa> alex4: no
75 2013-04-26 00:07:50 <gmatteson_> has anyone used newtonsoft.json for .NET?
76 2013-04-26 00:07:51 <sipa> alex4: difficulty 1 is defined as 2^48/65535 hashes
77 2013-04-26 00:08:20 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: deps-win32.yml needs psmisc for killall, or should use pkill instead of killall
78 2013-04-26 00:08:20 <sipa> alex4: as the network aims to get one block per 10 minutes, that means 2^48/65535/600 hashes per second at difficulty 1
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80 2013-04-26 00:08:43 graingert has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat-GNOME)
81 2013-04-26 00:08:51 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: ok, so add it?
82 2013-04-26 00:08:56 <BlueMatt> or fix it
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87 2013-04-26 00:12:28 <alex4> sipa so ok I get it a bit, a diff - total hash of the network caused it to be certain value due to 10 min 1 block target
88 2013-04-26 00:13:57 <sipa> i have difficulty(!) parsing your sentence, but i think what you mean is: this calculates the hash rate that would have caused the current difficulty
89 2013-04-26 00:14:07 <alex4> yes
90 2013-04-26 00:14:09 <sipa> and that's indeed the case
91 2013-04-26 00:14:14 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: any idea if libevent supports windows? :P
92 2013-04-26 00:14:51 <sipa> alex4: see http://bitcoin.sipa.be
93 2013-04-26 00:15:10 <sipa> you can see graphs with the difficulty 'catching up' with the hash rate
94 2013-04-26 00:15:26 <alex4> sipa yes I understand the theory
95 2013-04-26 00:15:37 <alex4> it have to adjust diff to keep on target
96 2013-04-26 00:15:49 <alex4> 2**48/65535/600/1000000000 however what are values in this formula?
97 2013-04-26 00:15:59 <alex4> 2 means diff doubles each time? and rest?
98 2013-04-26 00:16:05 <gmaxwell> (IIRC tor uses libevent to address select/poll/etc)
99 2013-04-26 00:16:16 Skav has quit (Quit: -a- Android IRC 2.1.6 Just need to be Chiznillen)
100 2013-04-26 00:16:20 <sipa> alex4: 2**48 = 2 to the power of 48
101 2013-04-26 00:16:31 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
102 2013-04-26 00:16:36 <sipa> 2**48/65535 is the number of hashes for a difficulty=1 block
103 2013-04-26 00:16:40 seeingidog__ has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
104 2013-04-26 00:16:45 <sipa> 600 is the number of seconds in 10 minutes
105 2013-04-26 00:17:00 <sipa> 1000000000 is 1 billion, to convert from hashes/s to Ghashes/s
106 2013-04-26 00:17:03 i2pRelay has joined
107 2013-04-26 00:17:12 <alex4> and I though I am good at basic math lol
108 2013-04-26 00:17:55 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: it claims to, but I avoid it after pushpool
109 2013-04-26 00:18:01 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
110 2013-04-26 00:19:05 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik tells me the bugginess is limited to libevent's http module, but quite frankly I'm not sure I accept the distinction :p
111 2013-04-26 00:19:30 <Luke-Jr> especially since making a network server on Windows almost always needs substantial refactoring and cannot be abstracted
112 2013-04-26 00:19:38 <Luke-Jr> (an efficient one, that is)
113 2013-04-26 00:19:48 rdymac has joined
114 2013-04-26 00:19:54 <Luke-Jr> (unless someone found a workaround to the WSAPoll bugs)
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118 2013-04-26 00:21:09 <alex4> sipa 2**48/65535 is the number of hashes to solve 1 block at diff 1?
119 2013-04-26 00:21:17 <alex4> I nearly understood it :)
120 2013-04-26 00:21:31 <sipa> yes
121 2013-04-26 00:21:46 <sipa> on average
122 2013-04-26 00:22:01 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: the basic summary of the problem is, Windows's real networking interface wants you to do a non-blocking read() and it will tell you when it completes - you can't ask it to notify you when it's readable
123 2013-04-26 00:22:41 <sipa> that is so broken...
124 2013-04-26 00:23:02 <Luke-Jr> dunno, it's arguably a better design - just doesn't fit the paradigm everyone's been using forever
125 2013-04-26 00:23:31 <sipa> wait
126 2013-04-26 00:23:36 <alex4> in future can bitcoin use sha512?
127 2013-04-26 00:23:39 <sipa> you mean asynchronous or non-blocking?
128 2013-04-26 00:23:47 fishfish has quit (Quit: Bye!)
129 2013-04-26 00:23:49 <alex4> or it stays with sha256 forever?
130 2013-04-26 00:23:55 <lianj> alex4: stays
131 2013-04-26 00:23:57 <Luke-Jr> sipa: async basically
132 2013-04-26 00:24:03 <Luke-Jr> in practice
133 2013-04-26 00:24:04 <sipa> as in: does the read continue in the background, or does it just fail and you have to retry?
134 2013-04-26 00:24:11 <Luke-Jr> it continues in the bg
135 2013-04-26 00:24:25 <sipa> ok, yes, that's nice i guess, but different
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138 2013-04-26 00:25:17 <Belxjander> Luke-Jr: performing "read"() calls or just waiting for the whole "socket" file-descriptor to have something readable using a "select()" variation?
139 2013-04-26 00:25:31 <Luke-Jr> Belxjander: ?
140 2013-04-26 00:25:37 <Belxjander> sorry
141 2013-04-26 00:25:51 <Belxjander> trying to mentally catchup after very little sleep and no real rest
142 2013-04-26 00:26:14 <sipa> it sounds more like aio_read
143 2013-04-26 00:27:13 <Luke-Jr> yeah, more or less
144 2013-04-26 00:28:16 <Luke-Jr> I was actually looking for some kind of library that allowed for async-like performance with sync/readable code, but came out empty-handed
145 2013-04-26 00:29:00 <Luke-Jr> eg, by longjmp-ing out of read while saving the stack to be jumped back into later
146 2013-04-26 00:29:18 <Luke-Jr> sadly, context switches like that are very non-portable
147 2013-04-26 00:30:31 <alex4> sipa so 0.007158388055 is amount of GH/s needed to solve 1 block at diff 1? then i multiply it by current difficulty as you said and it gives total GH/s of network?
148 2013-04-26 00:30:34 <gmaxwell> Looks like libevent2 uses the windows IOCP (IO completion, I suppose) stuff, but apparently has (/had) poor performance everywhere. A lot of posts on the subject are old.
149 2013-04-26 00:31:24 <sipa> alex4: no, it's the amount of GH/s needed to solve 1 block at diff 1 _in 10 minutes_
150 2013-04-26 00:32:16 <gmaxwell> well, I guess the boost asio stuff is supposted to solve this too.. but ugh.
151 2013-04-26 00:32:38 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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153 2013-04-26 00:34:22 <alex4> sipa thanks and how come number of hashes is calculated by usin 2**46/65535, the logic behind calc
154 2013-04-26 00:34:50 <alex4> its pretty neat formula :)
155 2013-04-26 00:35:16 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
156 2013-04-26 00:35:25 <sipa> alex4: that's really just how difficulty is defined
157 2013-04-26 00:35:35 Belxjander has quit (Quit: System Restarting!!!)
158 2013-04-26 00:35:55 <alex4> sipa is it based on block size and something else block related?
159 2013-04-26 00:36:06 <alex4> i presume algo plays role too
160 2013-04-26 00:36:20 <tumak> gmaxwell: it's more that libevent sucked than iocp
161 2013-04-26 00:36:33 <sipa> alex4: no
162 2013-04-26 00:36:35 dino___ has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
163 2013-04-26 00:36:48 da2ce7 has joined
164 2013-04-26 00:36:49 <sipa> alex4: it's completely independent from block size or transactions in the block
165 2013-04-26 00:37:01 debiantoruser has joined
166 2013-04-26 00:37:34 <alex4> sipa clearly diff have to ensure 1 block 10 min to its tied up to speed of block generations
167 2013-04-26 00:37:36 <alex4> seems so
168 2013-04-26 00:37:40 <alex4> *so its
169 2013-04-26 00:37:49 <sipa> yes
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172 2013-04-26 00:39:02 <alex4> there are some time stamps probably carried by blocks
173 2013-04-26 00:39:17 <alex4> so chain as whole can ascertain speed
174 2013-04-26 00:39:29 <sipa> that's how difficulty is adjusted, yes
175 2013-04-26 00:39:52 <sipa> multiply every 2016 blocks by the ratio of 2 weeks to how long it took in practice
176 2013-04-26 00:40:38 <gmaxwell> tumak: yea. wasn't saying otherwise... for us the boost asio stuff is probably best, but after stepping through it in gdb a bunch I don't like it much... it performs a lot of crazy and irrelevant operations.
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179 2013-04-26 00:41:37 <HM2> I've read good things about libev and, recently, libuv. libuv is based on libev but incorporates better Windows support. It's used by Nodjs
180 2013-04-26 00:41:41 <HM2> Nodejs*
181 2013-04-26 00:41:50 <alex4> multiply every 2016 blocks by the ratio of 2 weeks to how long it took in practice - what 2 weeks got to do with it?
182 2013-04-26 00:41:52 ie6 has joined
183 2013-04-26 00:43:13 <sipa> alex4: it aims to do 2016 blocks in two weeks
184 2013-04-26 00:43:23 <sipa> alex4: which is equal to 1 block per 10 minutes
185 2013-04-26 00:43:30 <alex4> oh yes true
186 2013-04-26 00:43:48 <alex4> I forgot bitcoin does not have instant diff retarget
187 2013-04-26 00:43:49 <alex4> :)
188 2013-04-26 00:43:56 <alex4> for a moment
189 2013-04-26 00:44:45 XRPTrader2 has left ()
190 2013-04-26 00:44:57 <tumak> gmaxwell: if you meant the uber-heavy threading stuff for every little thing, thats exactly what windows shine at
191 2013-04-26 00:45:17 <tumak> but yeah, boost is a beast
192 2013-04-26 00:45:21 <bwen> how can I monitor the transaction to an address on the block chain without having the privatekey ?
193 2013-04-26 00:45:37 <tumak> but I'm universal STL hater, so what am i to say?
194 2013-04-26 00:46:35 <tumak> bwen: you mean you want to import public key into bitcoinqt w/o having the private part?
195 2013-04-26 00:47:17 <bwen> I'd like to query the json rpc to query the block chain for an address
196 2013-04-26 00:47:22 canooon has joined
197 2013-04-26 00:47:45 <gmaxwell> tumak: e.g. on my system every boost asio operation attempts to malloc(64 tbytes) for no explicable reason.
198 2013-04-26 00:48:19 <tumak> isnt that just pretty much definition of c++?
199 2013-04-26 00:48:27 <tumak> ie threashing the heap for every little thing :)
200 2013-04-26 00:48:39 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
201 2013-04-26 00:48:48 <tumak> well, c++ itself is innocent
202 2013-04-26 00:48:57 <gmaxwell> right.
203 2013-04-26 00:48:59 <tumak> its the evil stl, and its bigger brother boost hiding stuff
204 2013-04-26 00:49:11 i2pRelay has joined
205 2013-04-26 00:50:10 marr has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
206 2013-04-26 00:50:49 <alex4> guys does Pieter Wuille sometimes come here?
207 2013-04-26 00:50:54 ie6 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
208 2013-04-26 00:51:00 <alex4> he seems pretty smart lol
209 2013-04-26 00:51:10 <gmaxwell> sipa: You ever heard of this Pieter Wuille guy?
210 2013-04-26 00:51:22 <BlueMatt> Ive heard hes damn brilliant
211 2013-04-26 00:51:28 <alex4> yerr!!!
212 2013-04-26 00:51:34 <alex4> he is genius in math
213 2013-04-26 00:51:57 <alex4> and he is good at explaning complex things in simple way
214 2013-04-26 00:52:13 <nsh> i can do the opposite really well
215 2013-04-26 00:52:15 <nsh> we should team up
216 2013-04-26 00:52:27 <alex4> eee thats -1 btc per explanation then :D
217 2013-04-26 00:52:28 <bwen> I cant query the blockchain thru the jsonrpc can I? How else could I achieve this?
218 2013-04-26 00:52:34 <HM2> gmaxwell: that 64 bytes is probably the functor object. i recently plugged asio in to zmq and the architecture is a PITA.
219 2013-04-26 00:52:47 <BlueMatt> bwen: depends on what you're quering for
220 2013-04-26 00:53:00 <BlueMatt> bwen: also, "Tell us what you're trying to do, not how you think you need to do it." -topic
221 2013-04-26 00:53:24 <BlueMatt> bwen: or I can read scrollback, no you cant do that over rpc
222 2013-04-26 00:53:39 <jgarzik> sipa: I think luke-jr is a bit confused about Windows and non-blocking sockets
223 2013-04-26 00:53:40 <BlueMatt> bwen: Im not aware of any non-web ways to do so without writing code
224 2013-04-26 00:53:45 <gmaxwell> HM2: 64 terabytes. thats one hell of a functor object.
225 2013-04-26 00:53:48 <bwen> BlueMatt: I'd like to monitor the transaction going to a specific bitcoin address. Which would avoid having the privatekeys on the server
226 2013-04-26 00:53:57 <alex4> what is hash max_target? how come it 65535?
227 2013-04-26 00:54:10 <BlueMatt> bwen: well if you have the private key at all, you could just encrypt the wallet and throw away the key
228 2013-04-26 00:54:12 LorenzoMoney has left ("Ciao!")
229 2013-04-26 00:54:38 <alex4> wrong question, going to read more now
230 2013-04-26 00:54:38 <alex4> :)
231 2013-04-26 00:55:12 <bwen> BlueMatt: but then the server get compromised and they just send calls to the jsonrpc ... I dont want the server to have access to send bitcoins from that address. Just readability
232 2013-04-26 00:55:45 <BlueMatt> yes, that is what encryption does
233 2013-04-26 00:55:53 <BlueMatt> without the key there is no possible way to send bitcoins
234 2013-04-26 00:56:07 <bwen> can I just delete the key then
235 2013-04-26 00:56:10 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: why do you say that?
236 2013-04-26 00:56:13 <bwen> why encypt it
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239 2013-04-26 00:56:45 <BlueMatt> because manually deleting the key requires binary manipulation of the wallet and coding, but if you just encrypt with a long random password and throw away the password, its just as good
240 2013-04-26 00:57:12 i2pRelay has joined
241 2013-04-26 00:58:04 <bwen> BlueMatt: faire enough, if I encrypt the whole wallet how is jsonrpc going to be able to read it and its addresses?
242 2013-04-26 00:58:04 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: considering how much time I've wasted researching it, I'd be surprised..
243 2013-04-26 00:58:24 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: more likely I suck at explaining it, but I'd love to be wrong
244 2013-04-26 00:58:40 <BlueMatt> bwen: bitcoin wallet encryption only encrypts private keys, so transactions/pubkeys are all there just as before
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246 2013-04-26 00:59:06 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: what were you researching it for?
247 2013-04-26 00:59:32 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: making BFGMiner single-threaded was the goal
248 2013-04-26 01:00:04 <jgarzik> If you are dumping select() -- cross platform -- for something Windows specific, the most reliable is WaitForMultipleObjects() not WSAPoll()
249 2013-04-26 01:00:12 zebedee_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
250 2013-04-26 01:00:22 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: WaitForMultipleObjects has a limit of 64 IIRC
251 2013-04-26 01:00:38 <HM2> https://github.com/joyent/libuv or http://software.schmorp.de/pkg/libev.html
252 2013-04-26 01:00:43 <bwen> BlueMatt: how does blockchain.info those it? querying the single address on the blockchain ...
253 2013-04-26 01:00:54 <jgarzik> But I was responding to this, which is not really accurate: "Windows's real networking interface wants you to do a non-blocking read() and it will tell you when it completes"
254 2013-04-26 01:00:54 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: also, I was talking about IOCP, not WSAPoll
255 2013-04-26 01:00:57 polrpaul has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
256 2013-04-26 01:01:01 <bwen> does it*
257 2013-04-26 01:01:08 <BlueMatt> bwen: they wrote lots of custom code to do it...
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259 2013-04-26 01:01:48 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I agree "async" is clearer to describe it - but MSDN uses a term similar to (if not exactly) "non-blocking"
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270 2013-04-26 01:09:22 <alex4> what is max target?
271 2013-04-26 01:10:06 <lianj> 0x00000000ffff0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
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273 2013-04-26 01:11:27 <alex4> max_target is 2^208*65535
274 2013-04-26 01:11:36 <alex4> I wonder what are those 3 numbers mean
275 2013-04-26 01:12:44 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
276 2013-04-26 01:12:46 <alex4> maybe i can understand it later :)
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283 2013-04-26 01:14:37 <alex4> difficulty = maximum_target / current_target
284 2013-04-26 01:14:49 <lianj> alex4: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Target
285 2013-04-26 01:15:02 <alex4> lianj ty
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287 2013-04-26 01:20:23 <lianj> alex4: makes sense now?
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292 2013-04-26 01:21:59 <alex4> not yet
293 2013-04-26 01:22:00 <alex4> :D
294 2013-04-26 01:22:35 <lianj> "Since a lower target makes Bitcoin generation more difficult, the maximum target is the lowest possible difficulty."
295 2013-04-26 01:22:47 <nsh> cock you head left and right like a dog, often helps comprehension
296 2013-04-26 01:23:01 <nsh> something to do with varying relative bloodflow in brain hemispheres
297 2013-04-26 01:23:04 <alex4> so max target =1 right?
298 2013-04-26 01:23:16 <jgarzik> /umode +R
299 2013-04-26 01:23:19 <jgarzik> to avoid PM span
300 2013-04-26 01:23:21 <jgarzik> *spam
301 2013-04-26 01:23:42 <lianj> alex4: no, max target is 0x00000000ffff0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
302 2013-04-26 01:23:53 <lianj> 2^208*65535 == 0x00000000ffff0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
303 2013-04-26 01:23:54 <alex4> the maximum target is the lowest possible difficulty."
304 2013-04-26 01:24:04 <alex4> and lowest poss diff is 1
305 2013-04-26 01:24:10 <alex4> it cant be lower than 1
306 2013-04-26 01:25:13 <lianj> intern bitcoin uses the target and not difficulty representation
307 2013-04-26 01:25:51 <alex4> hmm I read difficulty = maximum_target / current_target
308 2013-04-26 01:25:52 <lianj> if you say difficulty = maximum_target / current_target, the ofcourse. 0x00000000ffff0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 / 0x00000000ffff0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 is one
309 2013-04-26 01:26:52 <alex4> current target is directly related to amount of total hash?
310 2013-04-26 01:27:04 <lianj> the bitcoin wire protocol doesn't know or care about difficulty representation. its about targets
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316 2013-04-26 01:28:44 <alex4> ok that are those 2 targets in simple languages?
317 2013-04-26 01:28:49 <alex4> language
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319 2013-04-26 01:29:48 <alex4> It's important to realize that block generation is not a long, set problem (like doing a million hashes), but more like a lottery. Each hash basically gives you a random number between 0 and the maximum value of a 256-bit number (which is huge). If your hash is below the target, then you win. If not, you increment the nonce (completely changing the hash) and try again.
320 2013-04-26 01:29:50 <alex4> makes sense
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393 2013-04-26 02:54:42 Styles has joined
394 2013-04-26 02:54:52 <Styles> Hey guys, can I ask some really stupid questions about bitcoin?
395 2013-04-26 02:55:03 btcluvr has joined
396 2013-04-26 02:55:07 <bwen> so you give us the choice?
397 2013-04-26 02:55:10 <Styles> I know there are clients, but I also see references to servers, what's this about? There isn't much info on "bitcoin servers"
398 2013-04-26 02:55:22 <Styles> Meh good point bwen, I know better than that.
399 2013-04-26 02:55:27 fiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
400 2013-04-26 02:55:28 <btcluvr> any people in here looking for work. I want to setup a gaming site. Neever some coders to help
401 2013-04-26 02:55:28 <bwen> but I havent answered the first question :(
402 2013-04-26 02:55:29 <etotheipi_> bwen!
403 2013-04-26 02:55:40 <etotheipi_> I've been waiting for you on bitcoin-armory, I didn't know you were here
404 2013-04-26 02:55:44 <Styles> bwen idc! Answer the second :)
405 2013-04-26 02:55:57 <eklass> clients come in 2 flavors. full client which hosts the blockchain and are nodes/servers in the sense you're
406 2013-04-26 02:56:02 <eklass> meaning
407 2013-04-26 02:56:15 <eklass> engrish hard
408 2013-04-26 02:56:17 <bwen> ethotheipi_: what did you do to my fav client? >_<
409 2013-04-26 02:56:23 <etotheipi_> bwen: did you figure out the (?) thing? I updated the code to make it a little more obvious
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411 2013-04-26 02:56:31 <eklass> since it's peer-to-peer, there are no "servers" just nodes
412 2013-04-26 02:56:33 <Styles> eklass ok, so the full client... what's the lite?
413 2013-04-26 02:56:39 <Styles> eklass I understand
414 2013-04-26 02:56:45 <eklass> lite is basically an interface to a full client hosted elsewhere
415 2013-04-26 02:56:46 <etotheipi_> bwen: when you click on the (?) it pops up a little informational window. You click it to make it go away
416 2013-04-26 02:56:49 <Styles> I'm more interested in monitoring the current block chain.
417 2013-04-26 02:57:01 <etotheipi_> bwen: but if you don't realize that, it all looks totally frozen
418 2013-04-26 02:57:03 <Styles> I've seen people setup a "bitcoin server" and use RPC to monitor it, but that doesn't seem to scale to well.
419 2013-04-26 02:57:08 <Styles> And how often does the bitcoin protocol change?
420 2013-04-26 02:57:12 ejones_ has joined
421 2013-04-26 02:57:48 <gmaxwell> What does "scale well" mean in this context?
422 2013-04-26 02:58:01 <eklass> you don't have to use a full client if you're just looking to monitor the blockchain. there are libraries around to do that. depends on what you're trying to accomplish
423 2013-04-26 02:58:07 <Styles> Well from my understanding, the server hosts the "wallet" and interacts with it directly.
424 2013-04-26 02:58:13 fiesh has joined
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426 2013-04-26 02:58:19 <Styles> If you had 500 wallets and you were interacting witht hem often, IO might be an issue.
427 2013-04-26 02:58:48 i2pRelay has joined
428 2013-04-26 02:58:52 <Styles> I'm more interested in the protocol and I haven't really seen any docs on it :-/
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430 2013-04-26 02:59:05 <gmaxwell> In what protocol? The RPC protocol?
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434 2013-04-26 02:59:41 <Styles> Well RPC is the method that the bitcoin client allows you to interact with it. But the protocol the clients are using.
435 2013-04-26 03:00:06 <Styles> Sort of ripping apart the public client :p
436 2013-04-26 03:00:22 <gmaxwell> Styles: Because there are no servers bitcoin doesn't just have a protocol, it's a distributed algorithim that all nodes participate in, part of which gets serialized up and sent over the wire. Impletmenting it exactly consistently with other nodes is incredibly important.
437 2013-04-26 03:00:23 <Styles> er well it's oss but w/e (too much coffee today)
438 2013-04-26 03:00:26 <jgarzik> Styles: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification
439 2013-04-26 03:00:45 <Styles> jgarzik perfect, thank you!
440 2013-04-26 03:00:50 <Styles> What bootstrapping does BC use?
441 2013-04-26 03:01:03 <Styles> This site didn't work yesturday btw :-/
442 2013-04-26 03:01:10 <btcluvr> no coders in here, ?????
443 2013-04-26 03:01:17 <jgarzik> Styles: DNS or hardcoded list to obtain initial P2P node addresses
444 2013-04-26 03:01:23 <jgarzik> Styles: then peer exchange
445 2013-04-26 03:01:34 <eklass> Styles i believ eit piggybacks off IRC
446 2013-04-26 03:01:44 <gmaxwell> Styles: you should note that the wiki page there isn't remotely complete.
447 2013-04-26 03:01:45 <Styles> I was reading it use to use IRC but no longer does?
448 2013-04-26 03:01:57 <Styles> gmaxwell yeah :-/
449 2013-04-26 03:02:02 <jgarzik> eklass: no
450 2013-04-26 03:02:06 <jgarzik> Styles: correct
451 2013-04-26 03:02:15 <Styles> Where missing a lot of functionalliity. This just seems like the basic structure of it.
452 2013-04-26 03:02:27 <kanzure> irc was a rather clever bootstrapper originally
453 2013-04-26 03:02:30 <jgarzik> Styles: If you want the full rules, you must read the source code
454 2013-04-26 03:02:30 <eklass> news to me :-\
455 2013-04-26 03:02:39 <gmaxwell> kanzure: it was a pretty poor one.
456 2013-04-26 03:02:42 <Styles> jgarzik bah I was avoiding that.
457 2013-04-26 03:02:46 <Styles> How often does this change?
458 2013-04-26 03:02:58 <kanzure> gmaxwell: well, he needed something that he didn't have to support
459 2013-04-26 03:03:16 <gmaxwell> Styles: if you have any hesitance at all at reading the code then you'd have no chance of implementing it correctly in any case.
460 2013-04-26 03:03:33 <kanzure> that doesn't sound good, what about just reading the tests instead
461 2013-04-26 03:03:34 <Styles> gmaxwell I have no problem doing it, just wasn't sure if it's already documented.
462 2013-04-26 03:03:42 <Styles> It seems like something that would have happened by now, that's all.
463 2013-04-26 03:03:45 <Styles> Like an RFC
464 2013-04-26 03:03:45 <gmaxwell> kanzure: it made everything dependant on an unreliable centeralized service which could abuse its position to isolated nodes or monitor who was using bitcoin.
465 2013-04-26 03:04:25 <Styles> Yeah standard bootstrapping is DNS
466 2013-04-26 03:04:37 <Styles> A lot of p2p networks depended on 3rd parties to do this.
467 2013-04-26 03:04:44 ebde has joined
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469 2013-04-26 03:05:05 <kanzure> i'm not going to stir up a debate about whether or not irc is better than dns, both have been compromised in the past
470 2013-04-26 03:05:18 <Styles> kanzure terrible way
471 2013-04-26 03:05:21 <kanzure> what?
472 2013-04-26 03:05:41 <gmaxwell> Styles: There is no RFC protocol with anywhere near the interlocking complexity of Bitcoin, perhaps the closest would be the Opus RFC (which I worked extensively on) and we resolved exactness of specification by including a normative decoder implementation in C in the RFC.
473 2013-04-26 03:06:05 <gmaxwell> kanzure: there is nothing to compare. IRC created a _single_ point of failure, the dnsseed stuff does not.
474 2013-04-26 03:06:14 <Styles> gmaxwell why is it so complex? Just the math behind it?
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476 2013-04-26 03:06:40 <Styles> The idea behind p2p is it has no single point of failure. And if bootstrapping is hard, well shit you have a problem.
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478 2013-04-26 03:06:54 <kanzure> gmaxwell: you might know something that i don't about dns, but how would you go about doing actually anonymous dns registration?
479 2013-04-26 03:07:02 <gmaxwell> Styles: the fact that all of non-trivial calculations and operations must be performed exactly, if a node permits something it shouldn't or denies something it should then thats an exploitable vulnerablities that causes consensus failure.
480 2013-04-26 03:07:27 Ashaman_ has joined
481 2013-04-26 03:07:28 <gmaxwell> kanzure: what does anonymous dns registration have to do with anything?
482 2013-04-26 03:07:35 <Styles> gmaxwell alright, makes sense.
483 2013-04-26 03:07:51 <kanzure> well it seems like the initial choices were constrained by that choice of anonymity
484 2013-04-26 03:08:25 <kanzure> actually, screw it, i bet there's some tor/dns things that i'm not aware of
485 2013-04-26 03:08:29 <Styles> kanzure a lot of large p2p networks survived by clients setting up multiple bootstrapping dns servers. Check Gnutella network.
486 2013-04-26 03:08:34 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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488 2013-04-26 03:08:41 <Styles> kanzure why does anon matter here?
489 2013-04-26 03:08:44 PhantomSpark has joined
490 2013-04-26 03:08:52 <Styles> Once you get a list of other nodes, cache them, and you never hit the bootstrapper again.
491 2013-04-26 03:08:53 <kanzure> the initial release of bitcoin was from an individual that was trying to remain anonymous
492 2013-04-26 03:09:03 <kanzure> so his bootstrapping decisions were determined in part by this
493 2013-04-26 03:09:30 <kanzure> s/determined/constrained/
494 2013-04-26 03:09:46 <Styles> gmaxwell so this would be slighly intensive to write a monitor for the block chain in another language?
495 2013-04-26 03:09:56 <Styles> My best bet is to just setup bitcoind and use RPC?
496 2013-04-26 03:09:59 polrpaul has joined
497 2013-04-26 03:10:20 <gmaxwell> what kind of monitor? does it have to be reliable? can people get robbed if its wrong and following a fork?
498 2013-04-26 03:10:42 ColinT has joined
499 2013-04-26 03:10:46 <Styles> gmaxwell Yeah it needs to be as reliable as bitcoind is.
500 2013-04-26 03:11:01 <gmaxwell> Then you should use the rpc.
501 2013-04-26 03:11:18 <Styles> Well RPC doesn't have events, it so what I'd be checking every 30s for changes?
502 2013-04-26 03:11:41 <gmaxwell> Styles: you can use blocknotify for it to tell you when the bestblock has changed.
503 2013-04-26 03:11:59 <Styles> gmaxwell ah, alright awesome.
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507 2013-04-26 03:13:51 <saracen> Are there any plans to come up with some proper documentation and test cases for creating your own bitcoin nodes? Like an RFC?
508 2013-04-26 03:14:03 <Styles> saracen yeah that was my question :(
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510 2013-04-26 03:14:12 <Styles> Seems like it's slowly being built by a few members here
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513 2013-04-26 03:14:46 <Styles> But it also seems like failure to implement one properly would cause mayhem on the network
514 2013-04-26 03:14:52 <saracen> It seems like it's needed, because this reliance on bitcoind makes it quite centralised in a way
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516 2013-04-26 03:15:10 <gmaxwell> saracen: The reference software is the documentation. You must immitate its behavior indistiguishably.
517 2013-04-26 03:15:33 <gmaxwell> indistinguishably*
518 2013-04-26 03:16:08 <gmaxwell> If you do not faithfully apply exactly the same rules it applies, permitting no more and no less, then you risk creating a consensus failure if your software is widely used.
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520 2013-04-26 03:16:21 <Styles> Plus changes down the line will lead you to have issues.
521 2013-04-26 03:16:53 <vrs> Styles: if it did cause mayhem it would be useful as a cheap dos
522 2013-04-26 03:17:01 <gmaxwell> vrs: Not so.
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525 2013-04-26 03:17:34 <gmaxwell> vrs: it only causes 'mayhem' if honest users use the alternative software which is not completely faithful.
526 2013-04-26 03:17:45 <vrs> yes
527 2013-04-26 03:18:06 <saracen> At what point could bitcoind be considered not faithful?
528 2013-04-26 03:18:10 <gmaxwell> Youâ an attackerâ running weird software doesn't cause any mayhem.
529 2013-04-26 03:18:27 <vrs> I figured that if the network was easy to break/scramble, people would've done it by now, while new implementors needed to be on the watch to not introduce new points of failure themselves
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531 2013-04-26 03:19:00 <gmaxwell> vrs: there is a material difference between software run by users and software run by an attacker.
532 2013-04-26 03:19:25 <Styles> Right
533 2013-04-26 03:19:25 <vrs> yes, but it rules out accidental breaking, doesn't it?
534 2013-04-26 03:19:35 <Styles> The rest of the clients can filter out the bad requeste ect..
535 2013-04-26 03:19:42 ColinT has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
536 2013-04-26 03:20:22 <gmaxwell> Bitcoin is a consensus system. All honest nodes must come to exactly the same determination about the state of the blockchain. If they fail to reach a consensus, then the currency turns into two currencies and all bitcoins can be spent twice. You can startup your own nodes that don't join into the global consensusâ but that harms no one but you.
537 2013-04-26 03:20:39 <vrs> yeah.
538 2013-04-26 03:20:46 <gmaxwell> But if you have a bunch of regular users running different software and someone produces a transaction which they disagree on.. thats a disaster.
539 2013-04-26 03:21:21 <vrs> I see your point
540 2013-04-26 03:21:24 <gmaxwell> We're very careful in the reference client to not introduce incompatiblities with past versions except in the form of adding new restrictions and then making sure the vast majority of mining enforces them first.
541 2013-04-26 03:21:32 <gmaxwell> So that old nodes still believe the new consensus.
542 2013-04-26 03:21:59 <saracen> Doesn't this effectively put the bitcoind core developers in complete control of the network?
543 2013-04-26 03:22:19 <Styles> saracen no
544 2013-04-26 03:22:24 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
545 2013-04-26 03:22:24 <Styles> Anyone can contribute
546 2013-04-26 03:22:30 da2ce7 has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
547 2013-04-26 03:22:31 <gmaxwell> saracen: Of course notâ me writing some software doesn't do anything to make anyone run it.
548 2013-04-26 03:22:35 <vrs> if they change the implementation, it puts them out of sync with the clients that repruduced earlier versions faithfully
549 2013-04-26 03:22:43 <vrs> reproduced*
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552 2013-04-26 03:23:00 <saracen> Hmm.
553 2013-04-26 03:23:27 <saracen> In theory, you could say that nobody would run it
554 2013-04-26 03:23:32 <saracen> But in practice, they most likely would.
555 2013-04-26 03:23:38 <gmaxwell> The rules that must be enforced are insanely subtle.. 0.8 in replacing the database layer introduced a potential for inconsistency with old nodes. Weirdness in the oracle bdb database library used for the transaction indexes in old nodes were effectively undisclosed network rules.
556 2013-04-26 03:24:02 <Diablo-D3> fucking oracle :<
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558 2013-04-26 03:24:12 <saracen> For example, now, I'm going to say things here that are complete guesses (so feel free to shoot me down)...
559 2013-04-26 03:24:22 <saracen> The changes that forked the chain with the whole database issue
560 2013-04-26 03:24:26 <Diablo-D3> ORACLE, RUINER OF OPEN SOURCE
561 2013-04-26 03:24:43 <gmaxwell> This caused a short term convergence failure which was fixed by gettting a majority of hashpower to manually reject the blockchain fork that wouldn't be accepted by all nodes.
562 2013-04-26 03:24:46 <saracen> Didn't the pools effectively save you? If pools didnt exist, how long would it have taken you to tell everybody mining to use a specific version?
563 2013-04-26 03:25:02 <gmaxwell> saracen: if pools didn't exist there likely would have been no problem.
564 2013-04-26 03:25:24 <gmaxwell> saracen: because the 'weird and not acceptable to most nodes' chain would have had a hashpower minority.
565 2013-04-26 03:25:29 <vrs> when there's a network split, a slight majority in hashpower is enough for one chain to eventually outrun the other
566 2013-04-26 03:25:32 <gmaxwell> and so it would have just naturally died.
567 2013-04-26 03:25:36 <vrs> and rational miners will join that blockchain
568 2013-04-26 03:25:48 <saracen> But how long would that take?
569 2013-04-26 03:25:53 <saracen> To naturally die?
570 2013-04-26 03:25:58 <vrs> probably longer than with manual intervention
571 2013-04-26 03:26:05 <gmaxwell> saracen: it happens all the timeâ once or twice a day that there is a losing fork.
572 2013-04-26 03:26:08 ngc0202 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
573 2013-04-26 03:26:25 Happzz has joined
574 2013-04-26 03:27:03 <gmaxwell> saracen: would have depended on how split the hashpower was when it happened, at ~50% it would have taken a long time, at the 25% of the network that 0.8 had at the time... it would have very likely happened by the next block.
575 2013-04-26 03:27:51 <gmaxwell> The issue there wasn't just that 0.8 and before disagreed, but that 0.8 had a super majority of hashpower while also having a minority of actual nodes.
576 2013-04-26 03:27:57 <vrs> theoretically you could fork the existing chain with a client that speaks a slightly different protocol and enough people using it
577 2013-04-26 03:28:16 <vrs> but that wouldn't be very different from an altcoin
578 2013-04-26 03:28:17 <Styles> Yes vrs but try getting enough people
579 2013-04-26 03:28:25 <Styles> And eventually it should correct itself
580 2013-04-26 03:28:25 ebde has quit (Quit: Page closed)
581 2013-04-26 03:28:30 <vrs> exactly
582 2013-04-26 03:28:36 <Styles> So it doesn't matter
583 2013-04-26 03:28:47 <Styles> If the user wants their bitcoins to be worth something, use the correct protocol
584 2013-04-26 03:29:46 <gmaxwell> hah but while an inconsistency exists all the txn on the losing side of it may potentially be reversed..... kinda high stakes.
585 2013-04-26 03:30:26 <saracen> I just wonder what the landscape will look like when there are other nodes written by others, and the share is much greater
586 2013-04-26 03:30:27 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
587 2013-04-26 03:30:51 <gmaxwell> and it's not like people know their protocol is incorrect.. there are hundreds of rules and they must be just so. E.g. if there is a rule that a script must be <10000 bytes, and you count differently so that you only permit 9999.. then if someone makes a transaction right on the boundary you're forked.
588 2013-04-26 03:30:59 i2pRelay has joined
589 2013-04-26 03:31:19 <Styles> gmaxwell no pun intended?
590 2013-04-26 03:31:23 <gmaxwell> saracen: there are other nodes written by others, and the art of testing for conformance is improving over time.
591 2013-04-26 03:31:34 <gmaxwell> Styles: :P
592 2013-04-26 03:31:38 <Styles> wait wait
593 2013-04-26 03:31:43 <Styles> please don't fire me from my job
594 2013-04-26 03:32:21 <Styles> So the best practice is use the bitcoind
595 2013-04-26 03:33:47 ikea_meatballs has joined
596 2013-04-26 03:33:54 <Styles> gmaxwell using pure speculation, sites like MtGox are just using bitcoind and monitoring changes on the block chain
597 2013-04-26 03:33:57 <gmaxwell> Yes, best practice is to use bitcoind. The second best practice is to put whatever you use behind your own current bitcoind "firewall" nodes... so at worst any rule disagreement just causes you to get stuck.
598 2013-04-26 03:34:08 <vrs> talking of alternative implementations, is supernode any good?
599 2013-04-26 03:34:29 <Styles> vrs what?
600 2013-04-26 03:34:34 <gmaxwell> I don't believe any alternatives are actually correct.
601 2013-04-26 03:34:35 <vrs> https://github.com/bitsofproof/supernode
602 2013-04-26 03:34:37 <saracen> gmaxwell: Thank you for answering my questions :)
603 2013-04-26 03:34:55 <gmaxwell> (but they're improving)
604 2013-04-26 03:35:00 bitit has joined
605 2013-04-26 03:35:09 <Styles> vrs ah interesting
606 2013-04-26 03:35:14 <gmaxwell> Bitcoinj's fullnode functionality has done the most work on correctness, but there are known inconsistencies still.
607 2013-04-26 03:35:17 <Styles> This is exactly what I was talking about
608 2013-04-26 03:35:27 <gmaxwell> Styles: what is?
609 2013-04-26 03:35:39 ThomasV has joined
610 2013-04-26 03:35:47 systemParanoid has quit (Quit: Leaving)
611 2013-04-26 03:35:54 <vrs> weren't there issues with big wallet files and stock bitcoind?
612 2013-04-26 03:35:55 happzz_ has joined
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614 2013-04-26 03:36:43 <Styles> https://github.com/bitsofproof/supernode
615 2013-04-26 03:36:43 <Styles> this
616 2013-04-26 03:37:19 da2ce7 has joined
617 2013-04-26 03:37:35 <saracen> I imagine it depends on how big the wallet file is. I got my up to 3gb, and then it stopped working when I attempted a rescan.
618 2013-04-26 03:38:00 <vrs> a 3gb *wallet*?
619 2013-04-26 03:38:01 <gmaxwell> vrs: hm? I test with 100,000 addresses. Large numbers of move transactions can slow it down a lot.
620 2013-04-26 03:38:18 <gmaxwell> (large meaning tens or hundreds of thousands)
621 2013-04-26 03:38:29 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
622 2013-04-26 03:38:38 <vrs> ah
623 2013-04-26 03:38:46 <saracen> gmaxwell: Yeah. I added a *lot* of keys.
624 2013-04-26 03:38:49 <saracen> err
625 2013-04-26 03:38:50 <saracen> vrs*
626 2013-04-26 03:39:01 i2pRelay has joined
627 2013-04-26 03:39:11 <gmaxwell> saracen: stopped working or was just making progress VERY VERY slowly?
628 2013-04-26 03:39:41 <vrs> saracen, impressive
629 2013-04-26 03:39:45 robocoin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
630 2013-04-26 03:40:29 <saracen> gmaxwell: I never found out. It took me awhile to add that many keys, and then it was either going slow, or not doing anything. Then I fucked everything up by trying to read the file with a BDB library
631 2013-04-26 03:40:34 <gmaxwell> at one point about two years ago I imported every transaction in the network into a wallet... worked okay. Probably wouldn't now. :)
632 2013-04-26 03:40:41 <saracen> Except, I didnt read it, I accidentally saved a blank database over the top of it
633 2013-04-26 03:40:44 <saracen> So then I gave up.
634 2013-04-26 03:40:54 <Styles> gmaxwell can you request every transaction going backwards?
635 2013-04-26 03:40:56 <Styles> Like every block chain?
636 2013-04-26 03:41:29 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
637 2013-04-26 03:41:34 <gmaxwell> Styles: if you run with a txindex you can use the getrawtransaction call to fetch all the historical transactions. (I'm not quite sure what you're asking)
638 2013-04-26 03:41:48 <vrs> saracen: that evokes an amusing image, I was imagining a literal wallet swollen to the size of several potato bags and a thief trying to drag it away
639 2013-04-26 03:41:52 <vrs> too big to steal
640 2013-04-26 03:41:53 <Styles> gmaxwell well if I wanted to get a history of the whole network
641 2013-04-26 03:42:29 <gmaxwell> Styles: well you can't find out about orphan blocks, since you don't have all of them.
642 2013-04-26 03:42:37 <gmaxwell> and there is no way over the network to fetch them.
643 2013-04-26 03:43:01 squidicuz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
644 2013-04-26 03:43:13 <saracen> vrs: Ha. As far as I know, there was no money in the wallet. All the private keys were generated from the blcokchain's transactions.
645 2013-04-26 03:43:26 squidicuz has joined
646 2013-04-26 03:44:46 <Styles> gmaxwell I don't know enough about how bitcoin works to know what an orphan block is (Assuming it's a block that is bad?)
647 2013-04-26 03:44:46 <gmaxwell> saracen: what, just assuming K had been zero and recovering the private key from each signature?
648 2013-04-26 03:44:53 <vrs> hm kind of makes me wish I hadn't deleted my old relay node when bitcoind became too hungry for that small vps
649 2013-04-26 03:45:00 <Styles> btw gmaxwell thank you for all the information so far.
650 2013-04-26 03:45:09 <vrs> lots of vintage orphan blocks from 2011, probably have collector value by now
651 2013-04-26 03:45:27 <gmaxwell> Styles: it's a block that didn't make it into the consensus. Usually they're not badâ just late.
652 2013-04-26 03:45:43 <Styles> So what ends up happening to it?
653 2013-04-26 03:45:55 <Styles> It gets added to the next or the transaction is rejected and has to be re-preformed?
654 2013-04-26 03:46:19 <gmaxwell> Styles: it's as if it didn't exist, except all nodes that previously accepted it will reintroduce transactions that were in it and fell out of the chain back to the chain as they are able.
655 2013-04-26 03:46:31 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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657 2013-04-26 03:47:03 i2pRelay has joined
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659 2013-04-26 03:47:18 <saracen> gmaxwell: Basically, I was interested to see whether anybody had a brainwallet where they decided they'd remember their private key from say, block height 20000, transaction 3
660 2013-04-26 03:47:38 ThomasV has joined
661 2013-04-26 03:47:49 <saracen> I tested a lot, and nobody had. So needless to say, I've now considered it the best private key to use
662 2013-04-26 03:48:21 <gmaxwell> saracen: ... you can not observe all the people that tried the same thing as you without luck. :P
663 2013-04-26 03:48:57 <saracen> :D
664 2013-04-26 03:49:09 <vrs> saracen: I can imagine how you arrived at that 3G wallet
665 2013-04-26 03:49:24 <saracen> vrs: Yeah, I hit the betting game spams
666 2013-04-26 03:49:25 <saracen> :(
667 2013-04-26 03:50:42 <saracen> The ~3 BTC on private key 00000000000000000000000000000000 bothers me.
668 2013-04-26 03:51:05 Ashaman_ has joined
669 2013-04-26 03:51:08 <saracen> need more zeros
670 2013-04-26 03:51:10 <saracen> But yeah. 0.
671 2013-04-26 03:51:38 <Belxjander> a "null" private key ?
672 2013-04-26 03:51:47 <saracen> Yeah
673 2013-04-26 03:51:51 <Belxjander> so effectively the private key was "taken out" or was entirely null to start with?
674 2013-04-26 03:52:03 <vrs> it would be interesting to find out how memory corruption can affect the key generation and if it constricts the keys space enough, search that space
675 2013-04-26 03:52:04 Ashaman has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
676 2013-04-26 03:52:57 <vrs> not that corruption is very likely to show up in in that particular part of memory
677 2013-04-26 03:53:36 <gmaxwell> vrs: you can set any word of the privkey to zero and still have way more than enough entropy to make attacking it infesable.
678 2013-04-26 03:54:32 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
679 2013-04-26 03:55:04 i2pRelay has joined
680 2013-04-26 03:55:13 <lianj> saracen: is that even a valid privkey?
681 2013-04-26 03:56:21 jaequery has joined
682 2013-04-26 03:57:01 <saracen> lianj: No. But there's a weird bug in that you can get bitcoind to add it to your wallet
683 2013-04-26 03:57:07 <saracen> Even though it returns an error
684 2013-04-26 03:57:31 <saracen> I thought it had more bitcoins on it, but its 1.237
685 2013-04-26 03:57:34 <blakangel> i just sent 1btc to that address
686 2013-04-26 03:57:35 <saracen> http://blockchain.info/address/1F1RK4nEQyLgMhpXy4AdqhQ5BuLkDp9u9B
687 2013-04-26 03:58:30 <lianj> saracen: 'had'
688 2013-04-26 03:58:49 <saracen> oh wait
689 2013-04-26 03:58:51 <saracen> thats not the one
690 2013-04-26 03:58:58 <saracen> That's probably private key: 1 or something
691 2013-04-26 03:58:58 <saracen> hmm
692 2013-04-26 04:01:12 XRPTrader2 has joined
693 2013-04-26 04:01:54 <saracen> http://blockchain.info/address/1FYMZEHnszCHKTBdFZ2DLrUuk3dGwYKQxh
694 2013-04-26 04:01:56 <saracen> here we are
695 2013-04-26 04:02:03 <saracen> thats the null priv key
696 2013-04-26 04:02:35 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
697 2013-04-26 04:03:07 i2pRelay has joined
698 2013-04-26 04:03:29 <saracen> If you're going to destroy bitcoins, it's probably the best place to send them
699 2013-04-26 04:04:38 <lianj> how do you know its privkey is zero?
700 2013-04-26 04:04:50 Diapolis has joined
701 2013-04-26 04:05:07 [7] has quit (Disconnected by services)
702 2013-04-26 04:05:16 TheSeven has joined
703 2013-04-26 04:06:44 <saracen> lianj: Test for yourself, here's the private key in WIF format: 5HpHagT65TZzG1PH3CSu63k8DbpvD8s5ip4nEB3kEsreAbuatmU
704 2013-04-26 04:06:54 <saracen> https://www.bitaddress.org/
705 2013-04-26 04:07:02 <saracen> You can paste it into the wallet details
706 2013-04-26 04:07:18 <saracen> it will show you the private key in hexadecimal, and the public key address
707 2013-04-26 04:07:35 <saracen> oh
708 2013-04-26 04:07:40 <saracen> it doesnt show it. Hmm
709 2013-04-26 04:08:07 <saracen> You can see that its zero though. I think their JS cant deal with the null key
710 2013-04-26 04:08:14 grau has joined
711 2013-04-26 04:08:35 <gmaxwell> hm? a string of zeros should have a bunch of 1s in base 58.
712 2013-04-26 04:09:14 <lianj> gmaxwell: privkey version + checksum
713 2013-04-26 04:09:32 <saracen> gmaxwell: thats showing base64
714 2013-04-26 04:09:51 <lianj> saracen: ? no
715 2013-04-26 04:10:25 <saracen> Oh, sorry, I thought you meant the base64 display on bitaddress.org
716 2013-04-26 04:10:38 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
717 2013-04-26 04:10:42 <saracen> Yeah, it's the 80+00000 etc.
718 2013-04-26 04:11:03 bwen has left ()
719 2013-04-26 04:11:06 <lianj> so the only secret is the pubkey :D funny
720 2013-04-26 04:11:10 i2pRelay has joined
721 2013-04-26 04:11:51 <saracen> hah, well, I guess so. But no, its definately the one I pasted the link to earlier
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723 2013-04-26 04:14:38 <saracen> I'm off to bed, nn!
724 2013-04-26 04:14:41 * saracen &
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770 2013-04-26 04:44:39 <BlueMatt> "2031: Google defends the swiveling roof-mounted scanning electron microscopes on its Street View cars, saying they 'don't reveal anything that couldn't be seen by any pedestrian scanning your house with an electron microscope."
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793 2013-04-26 05:08:08 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: riiiiiiight⦠wouldn't they be arrested for stalking? ;)
794 2013-04-26 05:10:14 <etotheipi_> is there any indication in the tx serialization that a script is P2SH? I see there's a version byte that is only for the Base58 serialization
795 2013-04-26 05:10:32 Transisto has joined
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797 2013-04-26 05:10:42 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: no, we only thought of that possibility when it was too late
798 2013-04-26 05:10:59 <etotheipi_> Luke-Jr: I just wanted to make sure it's not actually needed, though
799 2013-04-26 05:11:21 fposdkgs has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
800 2013-04-26 05:11:22 <etotheipi_> nodes just know the P2SH template and apply it if they see it
801 2013-04-26 05:11:27 <Luke-Jr> yes
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805 2013-04-26 05:14:26 <etotheipi_> Luke-Jr: so there's a four-byte version number on the transactions... I assume we just use that for major protocol changes and increment it
806 2013-04-26 05:14:40 Transisto has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
807 2013-04-26 05:14:48 <BlueMatt> unless someone comes up with a killer application (tm) that needs it
808 2013-04-26 05:14:57 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
809 2013-04-26 05:15:23 <etotheipi_> what I'm really trying to figure out is if I can "safely" use only 4 *bits* to represent it in my serialization
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811 2013-04-26 05:15:37 <etotheipi_> hoping we don't go through 15 more tx versions in the near future
812 2013-04-26 05:16:03 <BlueMatt> use 1 bit if its the current default, and 4 bytes if it isnt
813 2013-04-26 05:16:18 <jspilman> varint to the max
814 2013-04-26 05:16:40 <BlueMatt> also, will bitcoin currently accept txn with a different version?
815 2013-04-26 05:17:10 bitit has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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818 2013-04-26 05:18:15 <jspilman> is it possible to build bitcoind in msvc? doesn't look like anyone has tried in a while, and makefile.vc is gone?
819 2013-04-26 05:19:18 <etotheipi_> sounds like we should've given 3 of the header version bytes to the timestamp
820 2013-04-26 05:20:08 <etotheipi_> I'm pretty sure we're not going to get through 256 versions before 2068 or whenever that thing runs out
821 2013-04-26 05:21:04 <diki> hmm
822 2013-04-26 05:21:53 <diki> I have no idea how to deal with numbers like 12.3456 when entered into a text hield in a webpage
823 2013-04-26 05:22:19 <diki> removing the dot and treating it as a whole number * 100000000 would still equal the same number as 123,456
824 2013-04-26 05:22:59 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
825 2013-04-26 05:23:00 <diki> So I am not sure how to format this for an exchange
826 2013-04-26 05:23:30 i2pRelay has joined
827 2013-04-26 05:23:32 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
828 2013-04-26 05:23:50 <etotheipi_> diki: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Proper_Money_Handling_(JSON-RPC)
829 2013-04-26 05:23:54 <etotheipi_> maybe some clues
830 2013-04-26 05:24:00 andyh2 has joined
831 2013-04-26 05:24:53 <etotheipi_> generally castToFloat(value) * 1e8 , then round
832 2013-04-26 05:25:14 <diki> I thought we used 64bit integers to avoid using double/floats and rounding
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834 2013-04-26 05:26:22 <etotheipi_> heh, in Armory I just split on the decimal place then pad the right side to size 8 with zeros
835 2013-04-26 05:26:32 <etotheipi_> the recombine them
836 2013-04-26 05:26:36 <etotheipi_> but that's stupid easy in python
837 2013-04-26 05:26:50 fanquake has joined
838 2013-04-26 05:26:51 <diki> nah I'm doing this in PHP and storing the data in MySQL
839 2013-04-26 05:27:27 BetwithBTC has joined
840 2013-04-26 05:27:37 <diki> But I did think of the same thing
841 2013-04-26 05:27:39 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
842 2013-04-26 05:28:08 <BetwithBTC> Bet with BTC! https://www.satoshi-karoshi.com/?r=10670
843 2013-04-26 05:28:10 <diki> Like if the user entered 12,3, I'd calculate how much I need to pad, then remove the separator and add the zeroes
844 2013-04-26 05:29:12 <etotheipi_> diki: but on the upside. double-precision values apparently, actually have just barely enough mantissa precision to handle the full range of 0 to 21e14
845 2013-04-26 05:29:51 <etotheipi_> I think that's why rounding is okay... because it's going to be exact anyway... you just want to avoid truncation
846 2013-04-26 05:30:04 <diki> I'm not exactly a math person so when you start talking about numbers that have the letter 'e' and a 'mantissa' I kind of stop listening :P
847 2013-04-26 05:30:11 <etotheipi_> diki: haha
848 2013-04-26 05:30:14 <etotheipi_> it's not important
849 2013-04-26 05:30:34 <etotheipi_> bedtime for me
850 2013-04-26 05:30:42 <diki> morning here
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855 2013-04-26 05:35:10 <Luke-Jr> etotheipi_: what happens when I set version=0xdeadbeef?
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910 2013-04-26 06:37:22 <fwgw4g4g> ?
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936 2013-04-26 07:13:06 <Luke-Jr> sigh
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943 2013-04-26 07:18:42 <saivann> Luke-Jr : Let's him calm down I guess..
944 2013-04-26 07:18:58 <saivann> Let's let him calm down*
945 2013-04-26 07:19:26 <Luke-Jr> I've already given up trying to reason with him
946 2013-04-26 07:19:37 <saivann> :(
947 2013-04-26 07:22:23 <Luke-Jr> he's obviously not even really reading it
948 2013-04-26 07:22:27 <saivann> It's amazing to see people trying to force us to do things on github..
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952 2013-04-26 07:24:13 <saivann> I mean, I try to stay calm and create a constructive environment despite the insults.. but they don't want to hear anything.
953 2013-04-26 07:24:38 <Luke-Jr> obviously there is nothing to discuss - we just need to concede
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958 2013-04-26 07:27:48 <saivann> If I wanted Matonis there, I would be unhappy to see someone polluting the issue like that and delay everything again..
959 2013-04-26 07:27:53 <MWNinja> why not speed up the average time per block and lower the reward to maintain the same award rate?
960 2013-04-26 07:28:10 <MWNinja> Once the hash rate is in place from asic then we could get 30 second blocks
961 2013-04-26 07:30:14 Michail1 has joined
962 2013-04-26 07:31:21 <Luke-Jr> MWNinja: there is no benefit to 30 second blocks and a lot of harm
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965 2013-04-26 07:32:31 <saivann> This has probably been discussed many times before, but I also wondered the same thing once. Is it due to the increasing number of blocks?
966 2013-04-26 07:32:47 <saivann> s/increasing/increased/
967 2013-04-26 07:33:14 <MWNinja> then how does bitcoin benefit from all the new hash rate being added? How do we utilize the processing power,
968 2013-04-26 07:33:21 <Luke-Jr> saivann: there are a lot of different angles to it
969 2013-04-26 07:33:40 <Luke-Jr> the most obvious being that's 20x more block headers everyone (even light nodes) needs to store
970 2013-04-26 07:33:49 <Luke-Jr> MWNinja: difficulty increases
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972 2013-04-26 07:34:10 <MWNinja> we just make it arbitrarily harder to process transactions
973 2013-04-26 07:34:16 <Luke-Jr> there's also the factor of more frequent blocks resulting in more stale blocks, which wastes hashing
974 2013-04-26 07:34:23 <Luke-Jr> MWNinja: precisely
975 2013-04-26 07:34:31 <saivann> MwNinja : The processing power actually increases the security without any change in the protocol, at the very least. And that is very important because the security must increase at the same time than its adoption.
976 2013-04-26 07:34:32 <Luke-Jr> MWNinja: that's the purpose of mining
977 2013-04-26 07:34:42 <MWNinja> storage shouldn't be a concern, lets put the blockchain on peta-scale storage
978 2013-04-26 07:35:01 <Luke-Jr> MWNinja: every full node must store the blockchain. every light node must store block headers.
979 2013-04-26 07:35:15 <saivann> Luke-Jr : I see
980 2013-04-26 07:35:36 <saivann> Thanks for the summary
981 2013-04-26 07:35:58 <Luke-Jr> MWNinja: and again: there is no real benefit to reducing block time below 10 minutes
982 2013-04-26 07:36:30 <saivann> Well, instant transactions I guess. But then again, double-spend detection can become more used I guess
983 2013-04-26 07:36:36 <MWNinja> global instant point of sale for every brick and mortar company on the planet
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985 2013-04-26 07:36:57 <MWNinja> big benefit to 30 second irreverible transactions
986 2013-04-26 07:37:00 <Luke-Jr> saivann: fast blocks don't make transactions any faster
987 2013-04-26 07:37:09 <Luke-Jr> MWNinja: but that's not possible
988 2013-04-26 07:37:17 <Luke-Jr> MWNinja: even with 30 second blocks, you'd still need to wait an hour
989 2013-04-26 07:37:32 <saivann> Exactly :-) More weak confirmation == a few strong confirmation
990 2013-04-26 07:38:52 <Luke-Jr> MWNinja: the reason it's 6 confirms is because that's how many are in an hour on average
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992 2013-04-26 07:39:38 <MWNinja> right Luke-Jr but its arbitrary, litecoin goes faster
993 2013-04-26 07:39:50 <Luke-Jr> MWNinja: no, it doesn't.
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995 2013-04-26 07:41:11 <MWNinja> with 30 second blocks you would get 6 confirms in 3 minutes right?
996 2013-04-26 07:41:28 Conflict has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
997 2013-04-26 07:41:28 <MWNinja> or would that not be enough to trust?
998 2013-04-26 07:41:41 <feral> its still only 3 minutes of hashing security
999 2013-04-26 07:41:56 <Luke-Jr> MWNinja: nope
1000 2013-04-26 07:42:21 <Luke-Jr> MWNinja: you'd just need 120 blocks to get the same kind of confirmation that bitcoin gives you with 6
1001 2013-04-26 07:43:18 <saivann> 30 seconds blocks would just be much easier to revert. And you need 20x the amount of blocks to get the same security.
1002 2013-04-26 07:43:59 <MWNinja> well our networks will be 100x faster
1003 2013-04-26 07:44:07 <MWNinja> then 1000x faster
1004 2013-04-26 07:44:17 <saivann> Instant transactions wouldn't be faster
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1006 2013-04-26 07:44:48 <MWNinja> mining operations will be mobile too
1007 2013-04-26 07:45:24 <Luke-Jr> MWNinja: no, the network would be slower
1008 2013-04-26 07:45:37 <Luke-Jr> because you'd bog it down with extra data for no benefit
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1013 2013-04-26 07:48:59 <saivann> Then, is it possible with current TX priority system to have decent double-spend detection systems for point of sales who requires instant transactions in the future?
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1015 2013-04-26 07:49:10 <MWNinja> I want to pay with bitcoins everywhere, for everything, globally, universally, and instantly. I think that should be a realistic goal as technology continues to advance at a rapid pace
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1017 2013-04-26 07:50:09 <Luke-Jr> saivann: you can't detect double spends really
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1019 2013-04-26 07:51:09 <Luke-Jr> MWNinja: great, but the blockchain today is not capable of that
1020 2013-04-26 07:51:26 <saivann> Luke-Jr : I thought it was possible with clients listening for unconfirmed transactions
1021 2013-04-26 07:51:29 <MWNinja> right with the current implementation of bitcoin, a merchant Point of sale system will place the risk on either the merchant, or processing company who would have to hold a hot wallet of large value
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1023 2013-04-26 07:51:49 <Luke-Jr> saivann: it's entirely possible the double-spend is never broadcasted
1024 2013-04-26 07:52:00 <MWNinja> I just want to understand the vision and path forward over the next 10 years
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1026 2013-04-26 07:52:36 <Luke-Jr> MWNinja: I have a summary writeup/proposal for an extension that would allow instant transactions, but it requires trust between friends
1027 2013-04-26 07:52:40 <saivann> Luke-Jr : But then, the miner must participate in the attack, am-I right?
1028 2013-04-26 07:52:59 <Luke-Jr> saivann: more or less
1029 2013-04-26 07:53:06 <Luke-Jr> saivann: but not necessarily
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1031 2013-04-26 07:53:28 <Luke-Jr> saivann: today, someone could send Eligius a transaction to mine which nobody else finds out about due to the "non-standard" relay rules
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1033 2013-04-26 07:53:53 <Luke-Jr> (except that Eligius uses GBT and miners could detect it)
1034 2013-04-26 07:54:06 <saivann> Luke-Jr : I see, fascinating
1035 2013-04-26 07:55:01 <Luke-Jr> saivann: and there are services like Hashpower.com which allow someone to just buy mining power
1036 2013-04-26 07:55:19 <Luke-Jr> so they could easily spend 30 BTC to get a good chance at finding the next block
1037 2013-04-26 07:55:25 <Luke-Jr> they get the 25 BTC subsidy + double spend
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1039 2013-04-26 07:55:46 <saivann> In fact, in a perfect world without mining pool where Bitcoin is extremely decentralized, this attack would have too much chances to fail to be worth
1040 2013-04-26 07:56:04 <Luke-Jr> perhaps
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1042 2013-04-26 07:56:22 <saivann> (Except for very large amounts)
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1047 2013-04-26 08:00:27 <MWNinja> So far the best I can think of is that the merchant system uses a split key, where the customer only holds half the private key and can only spend with the merchant system (or redeemed to another wallet)
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1050 2013-04-26 08:01:13 <Luke-Jr> MWNinja: https://gist.github.com/luke-jr/5409899
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1060 2013-04-26 08:06:10 <MWNinja> I saw this little NFC energy harvesting kit at Design West this week, would make a very interesting hardware wallet
1061 2013-04-26 08:06:21 <MWNinja> http://www.st.com/web/en/catalog/tools/FM116/SC1444/PF253360
1062 2013-04-26 08:06:28 <MWNinja> its super cheap too
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1207 2013-04-26 10:00:03 <The_Fly> anyone here who has played with the 0mq fork know if it sends all transactions or just those affecting the wallet?
1208 2013-04-26 10:00:11 <The_Fly> asking before i peer at source to determine
1209 2013-04-26 10:01:29 hnz has joined
1210 2013-04-26 10:01:43 <The_Fly> CTxMemPool::accept
1211 2013-04-26 10:01:47 <The_Fly> so is all right?
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1218 2013-04-26 10:07:29 <The_Fly> suppose i could add a 0mq send in CWallet::AddToWallet
1219 2013-04-26 10:08:04 <The_Fly> or use Scrat's trick of writing to a file for each tx and removing once processed
1220 2013-04-26 10:10:07 <The_Fly> hm
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1225 2013-04-26 10:12:26 <wumpus> The_Fly: a ghetto queue :p
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1227 2013-04-26 10:13:09 <wumpus> using 0mq is more flexible and performant
1228 2013-04-26 10:14:49 <The_Fly> cool :)
1229 2013-04-26 10:14:58 <The_Fly> i need to adapt to send on walletnotify though
1230 2013-04-26 10:15:22 <The_Fly> and am unsure how to deal with the case where say my transaction processor is down
1231 2013-04-26 10:15:42 <The_Fly> in scrats case at least you have the tx hash on disk
1232 2013-04-26 10:15:53 <The_Fly> and can process next startup
1233 2013-04-26 10:16:23 <The_Fly> (in the case that bitcoind stays up but tx processor dies)
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1240 2013-04-26 10:22:36 <The_Fly> USE_ZMQ=1 make -f makefile.unix -e PIE=1
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1242 2013-04-26 10:23:05 <The_Fly> ive merged the 0mq branch with master on the main bitcoin repo, hope it works / passes tests
1243 2013-04-26 10:24:18 <wumpus> I'm not sure if 0mq can handle durable queues, ie reliable messenging when one of the endpoints can go offline... may be that you want to use a more full-blown queue, such as rabbitmq
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1245 2013-04-26 10:24:40 <wumpus> there are adapters between them
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1247 2013-04-26 10:25:05 <The_Fly> thanks
1248 2013-04-26 10:25:20 <The_Fly> so i can take 0mq from bitcoind and sent to rabbitmq?
1249 2013-04-26 10:25:38 <wumpus> yes
1250 2013-04-26 10:25:52 <The_Fly> which will persist anything that was not ack'd by my database scripts
1251 2013-04-26 10:26:07 <The_Fly> and allow me to fetch later
1252 2013-04-26 10:26:12 <wumpus> that would be the official, scalable solution, a ghetto queue may well suffice in your case...
1253 2013-04-26 10:26:20 rowit has joined
1254 2013-04-26 10:26:23 <The_Fly> id like something that scales
1255 2013-04-26 10:26:27 <The_Fly> or at least to play with it anyway :)
1256 2013-04-26 10:26:51 <The_Fly> i may host multiple projects off the one wallet so who knows what traffic will be like
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1258 2013-04-26 10:27:31 <The_Fly> well, might be a bad plan, i was asking in here about decoupling the p2p stuff from the wallets
1259 2013-04-26 10:27:56 <The_Fly> so i could keep private keys on separate boxes, sign transactions and send to the p2p node for transmittion over the network
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1261 2013-04-26 10:28:21 <The_Fly> but with only a few day's into the codebase im not really equipped to do that atm
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1263 2013-04-26 10:28:52 X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale
1264 2013-04-26 10:30:19 <Luke-Jr> anyone ever heard of this? http://www.bitcoinx.org/
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1267 2013-04-26 10:31:06 <The_Fly> visited the site yesterday
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1274 2013-04-26 10:37:56 <The_Fly> hrm, prepending USE_ZMQ=1 before make, not sure if... is actually enabling the define
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1276 2013-04-26 10:40:59 <The_Fly> that seems to be how you do it, but dont see a -DUSE_ZMQ anywhere... hm
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1278 2013-04-26 10:41:46 <Arnavion> That is for defining things for make
1279 2013-04-26 10:41:51 <Arnavion> Not for defining C flags
1280 2013-04-26 10:42:00 <Arnavion> For that you use CFLAGS=-DUSE_ZMQ
1281 2013-04-26 10:42:21 <The_Fly> yeah i tried that
1282 2013-04-26 10:42:24 <The_Fly> still didn't see :S
1283 2013-04-26 10:42:30 <The_Fly> he has a ifneq (${USE_ZMQ}, -)
1284 2013-04-26 10:42:33 <Luke-Jr> The_Fly: it's supposed to be at the end..
1285 2013-04-26 10:42:34 <The_Fly> in the makefile
1286 2013-04-26 10:42:45 <Luke-Jr> make -f makefile.unix USE_ZMQ=1
1287 2013-04-26 10:42:46 <The_Fly> Luke-Jr: oh, he has it at beginning in the note he posted
1288 2013-04-26 10:42:54 <The_Fly> will try that, thanks
1289 2013-04-26 10:43:21 <The_Fly> still no see flag
1290 2013-04-26 10:43:22 <Arnavion> `USE_ZMQ=1 make` is short-hand for `env USE_ZMQ=1 make` , no?
1291 2013-04-26 10:43:24 <The_Fly> *define
1292 2013-04-26 10:43:42 <The_Fly> Arnavion: yeah, i thought ${USE_ZMQ} would check the env
1293 2013-04-26 10:44:05 <The_Fly> he has a condition and adds to DEFS
1294 2013-04-26 10:44:15 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1295 2013-04-26 10:44:15 <The_Fly> and libs
1296 2013-04-26 10:44:34 <The_Fly> https://github.com/fredan/bitcoin/blob/91dad762c75829f913ed7a96fd3fa38dbdb0ccc7/src/makefile.unix
1297 2013-04-26 10:44:44 <The_Fly> line 52
1298 2013-04-26 10:44:47 i2pRelay has joined
1299 2013-04-26 10:44:57 <The_Fly> https://github.com/fredan/bitcoin/blob/91dad762c75829f913ed7a96fd3fa38dbdb0ccc7/src/makefile.unix#L52
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1301 2013-04-26 10:46:52 <The_Fly> or shoul di just change it in the makefile lol
1302 2013-04-26 10:46:56 <The_Fly> and be done with it
1303 2013-04-26 10:47:12 <The_Fly> just confused as to why he says this in his pull request
1304 2013-04-26 10:47:53 <Arnavion> What you were trying should work
1305 2013-04-26 10:48:03 <Arnavion> but what Luke-Jr told you to use will definitely work
1306 2013-04-26 10:48:17 OPrime has joined
1307 2013-04-26 10:49:23 <The_Fly> yeah, putting it in front works
1308 2013-04-26 10:49:35 <The_Fly> i was in wrong branch loll!
1309 2013-04-26 10:49:50 <The_Fly> and the merge with master did not work
1310 2013-04-26 10:49:50 <Arnavion> Keyboard, chair, etc.
1311 2013-04-26 10:49:52 <The_Fly> conflicts
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1313 2013-04-26 10:50:56 <The_Fly> so if i want wallet notify...
1314 2013-04-26 10:51:07 <The_Fly> i could try cherry-picking the commit
1315 2013-04-26 10:51:17 <The_Fly> but is doubtful that will work
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1332 2013-04-26 11:05:12 <Belxjander> does the "bitcoin" software require any special linking attributes beyond needing the "boost" libraries?
1333 2013-04-26 11:06:51 <The_Fly> oh, btw conflict between 0mq and bitcoin/master was trivial
1334 2013-04-26 11:06:53 <The_Fly> just init.cpp
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1339 2013-04-26 11:11:17 <The_Fly> now to try and add walletnotify 0mq
1340 2013-04-26 11:11:38 <The_Fly> unless that is unnecessary?
1341 2013-04-26 11:12:19 <diki> woah 4 blocks in 2 minutes
1342 2013-04-26 11:12:24 <diki> someone turned on asic?
1343 2013-04-26 11:12:32 <diki> oh, oops that is TRC
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1423 2013-04-26 12:24:01 <Skami> Help my Wallet has been stuck like this http://imgur.com/5BeNb9i with 145 blocks for 12 hours now >.> Any one? (Yea It's the lastest version)
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1426 2013-04-26 12:24:50 <fanquake> Skami Can you check your debug.log ?
1427 2013-04-26 12:25:06 grau has joined
1428 2013-04-26 12:25:30 <Skami> fanquake, what should I find in there?
1429 2013-04-26 12:26:00 <nsh> more "information"
1430 2013-04-26 12:26:37 <nsh> often when things stop working the way they're intended to, the last few things they sputter out can give some indication of why
1431 2013-04-26 12:26:42 <Skami> Where there doesn't seem to be anything weird in there :S
1432 2013-04-26 12:27:24 <sipa> Skami: can you put the last 1000 lines or so in some paste site?
1433 2013-04-26 12:27:31 n5 has joined
1434 2013-04-26 12:27:34 <Skami> Oh
1435 2013-04-26 12:27:39 darenthis has joined
1436 2013-04-26 12:27:49 <Skami> Yea sure I think I see the issue though
1437 2013-04-26 12:28:00 <sipa> please share :)
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1439 2013-04-26 12:28:17 <Skami> http://pastebin.com/3qWb91Pr
1440 2013-04-26 12:28:21 <sipa> staying stuck for 12 hours is not intended behaviour in any case
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1443 2013-04-26 12:28:50 <sipa> Skami: that's far too little to say anything
1444 2013-04-26 12:29:05 <Skami> Ah I thought cause the last line started with () that would have been the issue
1445 2013-04-26 12:29:07 <fanquake> Skami what OS?
1446 2013-04-26 12:29:13 <Skami> Win 7 x64
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1448 2013-04-26 12:29:31 <sipa> Skami: that's just truncating
1449 2013-04-26 12:30:02 <Skami> http://pastebin.com/gQWKBPAf
1450 2013-04-26 12:30:05 <Skami> 1000 Lines >.>
1451 2013-04-26 12:30:43 <sipa> InvalidChainFound: invalid block=00000000000000452c2f082ba882796ef6f89024f9d6439067014022fc0c4302 height=233233 work=1080506124902978417718 date=2013-04-26 10:35:41
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1453 2013-04-26 12:31:11 <sipa> Skami: my guess is your database got corrupted
1454 2013-04-26 12:31:16 <fanquake> quite a few of those warning in there
1455 2013-04-26 12:31:18 btcfaucet is now known as btcfaucet_
1456 2013-04-26 12:31:34 btcfaucet_ is now known as btcfaucet`
1457 2013-04-26 12:31:34 <Skami> >.<, how would I fix that?
1458 2013-04-26 12:31:42 <sipa> i can't say more without seeing the initial error that occurred... probably when accepting block 233097
1459 2013-04-26 12:31:55 <sipa> Skami: start with the -reindex command line flag
1460 2013-04-26 12:32:04 <sipa> it will rebuild the database, which may take a while
1461 2013-04-26 12:32:16 <sipa> you can stop and start the client in between (don't pass -reindex when starting again)
1462 2013-04-26 12:32:22 btcfaucet` is now known as btcfaucet
1463 2013-04-26 12:33:00 <Skami> It will resync everything? ..>
1464 2013-04-26 12:33:10 <Skami> Oh just indexing
1465 2013-04-26 12:33:11 <Skami> I see
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1467 2013-04-26 12:34:12 <sipa> it will not download everything again
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1469 2013-04-26 12:35:07 <bwen> does bitcoin has a roadmap of some sort for version 1.0.0 ? Features that will get in, what will not
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1472 2013-04-26 12:35:56 <Skami> Thank you sipa, I will let you know if it works out :)
1473 2013-04-26 12:36:19 <sipa> Skami: i'm wondering why it happened, and why the client didn't detect it by itself, though
1474 2013-04-26 12:36:41 darenthis has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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1476 2013-04-26 12:36:56 <Skami> Is HDD corruption a possiblity? >.>
1477 2013-04-26 12:36:57 robbak__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1478 2013-04-26 12:37:01 <sipa> Skami: yes
1479 2013-04-26 12:37:06 <Skami> >.<
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1481 2013-04-26 12:37:18 <sipa> but i'd expect the client to detect that by itself
1482 2013-04-26 12:37:22 <sipa> there are several checksums
1483 2013-04-26 12:37:23 robbak__ has joined
1484 2013-04-26 12:37:38 <sipa> seeing the actual error would be useful, but i assume it's not in your log anymore
1485 2013-04-26 12:37:54 <sipa> it should be around a day ago
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1487 2013-04-26 12:38:28 <Skami> how can I see when stuff was written in the log?
1488 2013-04-26 12:38:34 <sipa> you can't
1489 2013-04-26 12:38:46 <sipa> it deliberately doesn't contain timestamps for privacy reasons
1490 2013-04-26 12:38:50 <Skami> Ah
1491 2013-04-26 12:38:55 <Skami> Was about to say huge design flaw :p
1492 2013-04-26 12:39:06 <sipa> but just look for a line InvalidChainFound, with height=233097
1493 2013-04-26 12:40:51 Transisto has joined
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1497 2013-04-26 12:44:04 <TD> Skami: you can enable timestamps with a flag.
1498 2013-04-26 12:44:14 * TD thinks the privacy issue of having timestamps is perhaps a bit overblown
1499 2013-04-26 12:44:30 <nsh> and with two flags you can enable semaphore
1500 2013-04-26 12:44:45 <Skami> I'll keep that in mind, thank you sir.
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1531 2013-04-26 13:07:23 <Plarkplark_> Hi guys.
1532 2013-04-26 13:07:30 <Plarkplark_> got bitcoind running
1533 2013-04-26 13:07:32 <Plarkplark_> ThreadRPCServer incorrect password attempt from ::ffff:127.0.0.1
1534 2013-04-26 13:07:42 <Plarkplark_> But wont accept password. (user / pass)
1535 2013-04-26 13:08:55 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1536 2013-04-26 13:09:03 <Plarkplark_> (compiled from source)
1537 2013-04-26 13:09:10 maximeb has joined
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1539 2013-04-26 13:09:29 i2pRelay has joined
1540 2013-04-26 13:10:09 <Plarkplark_> When browsing there with browser I get NO error in debug - an this in browser: {"result":null,"error":{"code":-32700,"message":"Parse error"},"id":null}
1541 2013-04-26 13:10:17 reizuki__ has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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1543 2013-04-26 13:12:39 maximeb has quit (Quit: maximeb)
1544 2013-04-26 13:13:25 <Plarkplark_> ? :(
1545 2013-04-26 13:13:33 o3u has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1550 2013-04-26 13:18:30 <Plarkplark_> ..
1551 2013-04-26 13:18:45 seeingidog__ has joined
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1553 2013-04-26 13:21:26 <Plarkplark_> [2013-04-26 14:51:50] HTTP request failed: The requested URL returned error: 401
1554 2013-04-26 13:21:28 makomk has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1555 2013-04-26 13:21:53 <bwen> Hullo Plarkplark :)
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1565 2013-04-26 13:26:41 <bwen> plarkplark_: can you start the ./bitcoind started as a daemon ? then try to ./bitcoind help
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1571 2013-04-26 13:35:50 <Plarkplark_> it's a deamon, yes
1572 2013-04-26 13:36:00 <Plarkplark_> nogo, 401 error
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1575 2013-04-26 13:37:47 <bwen> i'm sorry I wish I could help more, kind of learning all this myself. I didnt have that problem when I installed the .deb. Everything just seemed to work.
1576 2013-04-26 13:38:13 rowit has joined
1577 2013-04-26 13:38:47 <bwen> did you modify the bitcoin.conf?
1578 2013-04-26 13:39:59 <Plarkplark_> i compiled it all from source.
1579 2013-04-26 13:40:05 <Plarkplark_> as a learning experience
1580 2013-04-26 13:40:21 <Plarkplark_> on windows even ;)
1581 2013-04-26 13:40:26 <Plarkplark_> mingwg + q
1582 2013-04-26 13:40:27 <Plarkplark_> qt
1583 2013-04-26 13:40:34 <bwen> did you modify the bitcoin.conf?
1584 2013-04-26 13:40:51 <Plarkplark_> in %appdata% (on linux its in .bitcoin) ? no
1585 2013-04-26 13:40:59 <bwen> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Running_Bitcoin
1586 2013-04-26 13:41:04 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1587 2013-04-26 13:41:13 <bwen> you need to enable the jsonrpc server... its not on by default
1588 2013-04-26 13:41:33 i2pRelay has joined
1589 2013-04-26 13:41:41 <Plarkplark_> rpcuser=user
1590 2013-04-26 13:41:41 <Plarkplark_> rpcpassword=password
1591 2013-04-26 13:41:41 <Plarkplark_> rpcport=9332
1592 2013-04-26 13:41:41 <Plarkplark_> rpcallowip=*
1593 2013-04-26 13:41:41 <Plarkplark_> rpcallowip=127.0.0.1
1594 2013-04-26 13:41:41 <Plarkplark_> rpcallowip=*
1595 2013-04-26 13:41:42 <Plarkplark_> server=1
1596 2013-04-26 13:41:54 <bwen> looks good to me
1597 2013-04-26 13:42:18 canoon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1598 2013-04-26 13:42:18 <Plarkplark_> removed the double rpcallowip - nogo
1599 2013-04-26 13:43:35 agricocb has joined
1600 2013-04-26 13:45:36 <bwen> try to remove all rpcallowip
1601 2013-04-26 13:45:42 arekanderu has left ("Leaving")
1602 2013-04-26 13:45:59 <bwen> I only have rpcport, rpcpassword and rpcuser in my .conf
1603 2013-04-26 13:46:24 Killdozer has left ()
1604 2013-04-26 13:46:38 <Plarkplark_> k
1605 2013-04-26 13:46:48 <Plarkplark_> THis is it now
1606 2013-04-26 13:46:49 <Plarkplark_> rpcuser=u
1607 2013-04-26 13:46:49 <Plarkplark_> rpcpassword=p
1608 2013-04-26 13:46:49 <Plarkplark_> rpcport=9332
1609 2013-04-26 13:46:49 <Plarkplark_> server=1
1610 2013-04-26 13:47:00 <bwen> hey weird, I dont even have server=1
1611 2013-04-26 13:47:00 <bwen> :p
1612 2013-04-26 13:47:08 rdymac has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1613 2013-04-26 13:47:08 <bwen> and it works...
1614 2013-04-26 13:47:18 <Plarkplark_> [2013-04-26 15:19:19] HTTP request failed: The requested URL returned error: 401
1615 2013-04-26 13:47:45 <Plarkplark_> The debug is not really debug. More verbose +1
1616 2013-04-26 13:48:52 Toresh has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1618 2013-04-26 13:49:10 <bwen> did you try to just query bitcoind directly on the prompt?
1619 2013-04-26 13:49:20 Toresh has joined
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1622 2013-04-26 13:50:00 <Plarkplark_> i get json daa
1623 2013-04-26 13:50:00 <Plarkplark_> data
1624 2013-04-26 13:50:00 <Plarkplark_> on getinfo
1625 2013-04-26 13:50:48 <bwen> i'm out of ideas :(
1626 2013-04-26 13:50:54 <Plarkplark_> np
1627 2013-04-26 13:50:55 <SomeoneWeird> yeah
1628 2013-04-26 13:50:56 <SomeoneWeird> and?
1629 2013-04-26 13:51:18 <Plarkplark_> I got json data when I run bitcoind.exe getinfo
1630 2013-04-26 13:51:30 <SomeoneWeird> what's the problem?
1631 2013-04-26 13:51:33 <Plarkplark_> well
1632 2013-04-26 13:51:35 rowit has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1633 2013-04-26 13:51:40 <Plarkplark_> Oh sorry
1634 2013-04-26 13:51:46 <Plarkplark_> I can't connect on the RPC
1635 2013-04-26 13:52:02 <Plarkplark_> ThreadRPCServer incorrect password attempt from 127.0.0.1
1636 2013-04-26 13:52:05 Hasimir has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1637 2013-04-26 13:52:07 <Plarkplark_> ^debug
1638 2013-04-26 13:52:28 Hasimir- is now known as Hasimir
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1641 2013-04-26 13:52:45 <Plarkplark_> config is
1642 2013-04-26 13:52:45 <Plarkplark_> rpcuser=u
1643 2013-04-26 13:52:45 <Plarkplark_> rpcpassword=p
1644 2013-04-26 13:52:45 <Plarkplark_> rpcport=9332
1645 2013-04-26 13:52:45 <Plarkplark_> server=1
1646 2013-04-26 13:56:34 <bwen> plarkplark_: you have a webserver setup right?
1647 2013-04-26 13:56:39 <Plarkplark_> no
1648 2013-04-26 13:56:48 <Plarkplark_> litecoind does an RPC
1649 2013-04-26 13:56:51 <Plarkplark_> api / http
1650 2013-04-26 13:57:08 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1651 2013-04-26 13:57:10 <bwen> because I just tried to access it directly in the browser
1652 2013-04-26 13:57:25 <bwen> and I get the same error you do {"result":null,"error":{"code":-32700,"message":"Parse error"},"id":null}
1653 2013-04-26 13:57:40 i2pRelay has joined
1654 2013-04-26 13:57:55 <bwen> but if I use the lil php API I made with curl to post JSON it works as expected
1655 2013-04-26 13:58:26 <Plarkplark_> bwen same here
1656 2013-04-26 13:58:29 <Plarkplark_> ok
1657 2013-04-26 13:58:33 <Plarkplark_> so that output is normal
1658 2013-04-26 13:58:38 <Plarkplark_> But my miner won't connect.... weird is that.
1659 2013-04-26 13:58:41 <bwen> I believe so
1660 2013-04-26 13:59:06 <Plarkplark_> {"result":null,"error":{"code":-32700,"message":"Parse error"},"id":null}
1661 2013-04-26 13:59:07 <Plarkplark_> same :)
1662 2013-04-26 13:59:14 <bwen> how are you trying to connect to it?
1663 2013-04-26 13:59:20 <Plarkplark_> with cgminer
1664 2013-04-26 14:00:28 <bwen> maybe you'll have more chance in #bitcoin-mining I have no idea how cgminer connects to bitcoin.. i'm guessing its... properly... so maybe just an error (typo) in username / password
1665 2013-04-26 14:00:32 <bwen> or port
1666 2013-04-26 14:01:53 saracen has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1667 2013-04-26 14:02:00 <Plarkplark_> Ill check it all again
1668 2013-04-26 14:02:03 <Plarkplark_> thanks :)
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1688 2013-04-26 14:18:36 <Plarkplark_> For fun i'm trying to start a blockchain for some testing. How di I let the genesis mine?
1689 2013-04-26 14:18:53 <Plarkplark_> Just point a miner to the only running bitcoind - and a block will be solved on genesis?
1690 2013-04-26 14:19:16 seeingidog__ has joined
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1695 2013-04-26 14:22:01 <SomeoneWeird> uh, no
1696 2013-04-26 14:22:07 <SomeoneWeird> unless you're running a new chain
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1721 2013-04-26 14:42:17 <alaricsp> I'm interested in men *and* women, but I only like havin sex with the latter.
1722 2013-04-26 14:42:35 * nsh takes notes
1723 2013-04-26 14:42:49 <alaricsp> Whoa, that was for #bitcoin, dammit
1724 2013-04-26 14:42:53 <alaricsp> Stoopid laggy ssh connection
1725 2013-04-26 14:43:23 <TD> yes, much more on topic there
1726 2013-04-26 14:43:24 <TD> :)
1727 2013-04-26 14:43:31 <alaricsp> And now it's TOO LATE for it to be FUNNY there! :-(
1728 2013-04-26 14:44:38 <SomeoneWeird> lol
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1750 2013-04-26 15:02:01 * HM2 sighs
1751 2013-04-26 15:03:35 <HM2> anything interesting and uplifting going on in the #bitcoin-dev world?
1752 2013-04-26 15:03:57 <HM2> all the tech news around atm seems to be insanely depressing
1753 2013-04-26 15:04:24 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
1754 2013-04-26 15:04:33 grau has joined
1755 2013-04-26 15:04:36 <TD> HM2: did you see the guardian article?
1756 2013-04-26 15:05:01 <nsh> linky?
1757 2013-04-26 15:05:06 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1758 2013-04-26 15:05:19 <nsh> HM2, not all depressing. CISPA is shelved, same for UK snooper's charter (probably)
1759 2013-04-26 15:05:23 <TD> front page of guardian.co.uk
1760 2013-04-26 15:05:29 <TD> really awesome video and article about bitcoin in berlin
1761 2013-04-26 15:06:38 <nsh> ugh, video adverts
1762 2013-04-26 15:06:42 * nsh reinstalls adblock
1763 2013-04-26 15:06:43 <HM2> Yeah I saw the Guardian video
1764 2013-04-26 15:07:24 <HM2> I don't think for a minute that the Snoopers Charter is shelved, it's just going to be refactored
1765 2013-04-26 15:07:53 <nsh> oh sure, these people don't give up
1766 2013-04-26 15:08:10 <nsh> but obstacles give time for consolidation of position
1767 2013-04-26 15:08:17 Mr_G has joined
1768 2013-04-26 15:08:22 n5 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1769 2013-04-26 15:08:31 <nsh> their hasn't really been a concerted education campaign for the general population in the UK yet
1770 2013-04-26 15:08:33 <nsh> or i've missed it
1771 2013-04-26 15:08:43 <HM2> I don't think most people care
1772 2013-04-26 15:08:51 Ashaman has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1773 2013-04-26 15:08:58 <HM2> responses seem to range from "I have nothing to hide" to "meh, they probably already do that"
1774 2013-04-26 15:09:11 <TD> well, see the new bill as "charter v2"
1775 2013-04-26 15:09:13 <nsh> well, that's because you approach the conversation wrong
1776 2013-04-26 15:09:17 <TD> which would hopefully be better than v1
1777 2013-04-26 15:09:19 <nsh> first thing to do is break into their house at hight
1778 2013-04-26 15:09:20 <nsh> *night
1779 2013-04-26 15:09:22 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1780 2013-04-26 15:09:24 <nsh> take a few of their underwears
1781 2013-04-26 15:09:28 <iwilcox> nsh: It's hard to get people to care.
1782 2013-04-26 15:09:32 <nsh> read whatever paperwork they have in their folders
1783 2013-04-26 15:09:39 <nsh> then armed with these things start the privacy conversation
1784 2013-04-26 15:09:49 <iwilcox> ...unless you're prepared to stalk them.
1785 2013-04-26 15:09:51 ovidiusoft has quit (Quit: leaving)
1786 2013-04-26 15:09:52 <nsh> :)
1787 2013-04-26 15:09:54 i2pRelay has joined
1788 2013-04-26 15:10:02 <TD> nsh: they would point out that you're already a criminal and they don't need new laws to make you one
1789 2013-04-26 15:10:10 <nsh> the problem is that the activation of the worry circuit in the brain requires an immediate connection to self-situation
1790 2013-04-26 15:10:15 <iwilcox> "I see you read 'Chicks with Dicks'..."
1791 2013-04-26 15:10:22 <iwilcox> </serial_mom>
1792 2013-04-26 15:10:24 <nsh> :)
1793 2013-04-26 15:10:46 <nsh> but yeah, seriously speaking, it's a difficult task
1794 2013-04-26 15:11:30 <X-Scale> "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
1795 2013-04-26 15:11:55 <HM2> that works until they're using evil as a reason to do it
1796 2013-04-26 15:12:12 <HM2> i.e. we need these snooping powers so we can stop peadophiles!
1797 2013-04-26 15:12:33 <HM2> or, maybe one day, we need to shut down bitcoin so we can stop drugs and paedophiles!
1798 2013-04-26 15:13:45 spooky_ has joined
1799 2013-04-26 15:15:49 wallet42 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1800 2013-04-26 15:17:23 <iwilcox> Paedophiles are buying WMD with Bitcoin!
1801 2013-04-26 15:17:26 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1802 2013-04-26 15:17:43 <iwilcox> Wait, missed drugs...
1803 2013-04-26 15:17:47 <iwilcox> Drug-crazed paedophiles are buying WMD with Bitcoin!
1804 2013-04-26 15:17:58 i2pRelay has joined
1805 2013-04-26 15:17:58 sipa has joined
1806 2013-04-26 15:19:03 <nsh> iwilcox, you forgot to mention that they're selling them gender-bending immigrants so they can blow up jobs with benefit moneys
1807 2013-04-26 15:19:09 <nsh> +to
1808 2013-04-26 15:19:37 <HM2> Incidentally, has anyone put in for the .bitcoin TLD?
1809 2013-04-26 15:19:43 <HM2> Mt Gox perhaps
1810 2013-04-26 15:19:47 seeingidog__ has joined
1811 2013-04-26 15:21:34 <HM2> One day: bankofamerica.bitcoin
1812 2013-04-26 15:21:59 Toresh has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1813 2013-04-26 15:22:00 <bwen> I dont like the idea of bitcoin bank
1814 2013-04-26 15:22:19 <iwilcox> I've no problem with it.
1815 2013-04-26 15:22:20 <HM2> It's inevitable
1816 2013-04-26 15:22:36 <iwilcox> Provided they're made aware that they don't need a bank, and choose one anyway, that's fine.
1817 2013-04-26 15:22:39 Toresh has joined
1818 2013-04-26 15:22:55 <bwen> what would the service of a bank provide for bitcoin?
1819 2013-04-26 15:23:05 <bwen> convertion?
1820 2013-04-26 15:23:15 <iwilcox> Bitcoin is beset on all sides by pitfalls and misconceptions.
1821 2013-04-26 15:23:20 jaequery has joined
1822 2013-04-26 15:23:26 <nsh> bwen, what banks are supposed to provide
1823 2013-04-26 15:23:32 spooky_ has left ("Verlassend")
1824 2013-04-26 15:23:36 <bwen> dont say credit -.-
1825 2013-04-26 15:23:37 <iwilcox> Grandma doesn't mind paying to avoid all that.
1826 2013-04-26 15:23:39 <nsh> secure despositing and matching lenders to borrowers
1827 2013-04-26 15:23:45 <nsh> no, not creating credit out of MAGICS
1828 2013-04-26 15:23:49 tmsk has quit (Quit: tmsk)
1829 2013-04-26 15:24:00 <bwen> so basicly safe keeping
1830 2013-04-26 15:24:17 jaequery has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1831 2013-04-26 15:24:18 <nsh> loan-matching is arguably as important
1832 2013-04-26 15:24:18 seeingidog__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1833 2013-04-26 15:24:48 * HM2 wonders why the " Request another image" on the captcha on BitcoinTalks registration form does nothing
1834 2013-04-26 15:24:56 <nsh> earliest banks were mostly used to provide loans for grain production
1835 2013-04-26 15:24:57 jaequery has joined
1836 2013-04-26 15:25:02 * HM2 also wonders why refreshing the page returns the same image
1837 2013-04-26 15:25:14 <nsh> HM2, there's only one captcha, shh, don't tell the spammers
1838 2013-04-26 15:25:23 jedunnigan has joined
1839 2013-04-26 15:25:24 <HM2> can you tell me the answer then?
1840 2013-04-26 15:25:28 * owowo wonders why anyone is still using bitcointroll.org
1841 2013-04-26 15:25:29 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1842 2013-04-26 15:25:47 * nsh can't help, maybe clear cookies and retry
1843 2013-04-26 15:26:01 <nsh> cookies/cache
1844 2013-04-26 15:26:03 i2pRelay has joined
1845 2013-04-26 15:26:05 * HM2 grumbles
1846 2013-04-26 15:26:29 <jgarzik> heh
1847 2013-04-26 15:26:42 <jgarzik> man, my mailbox is full of shite about press representatives, this morning
1848 2013-04-26 15:26:46 <jgarzik> delete, delete, delete
1849 2013-04-26 15:27:04 <HM2> hurray
1850 2013-04-26 15:27:08 xorgate has quit (Quit: Take it easy)
1851 2013-04-26 15:27:23 <HM2> jgarzik: holding out for fox news? :P
1852 2013-04-26 15:27:32 <SomeoneWeird> heh
1853 2013-04-26 15:27:36 xorgate has joined
1854 2013-04-26 15:27:36 <SomeoneWeird> send them to me :P
1855 2013-04-26 15:28:06 <owowo> ya, I get spam since I started bitcoining,.. before I did not get any spam, like for 8+ years, no spam
1856 2013-04-26 15:28:16 fanquake has left ()
1857 2013-04-26 15:29:34 <wumpus> I get surprisingly few mails about bitcoins, given that my mail is on bitcoin.org, the occasional panicked user, but that's not so bad
1858 2013-04-26 15:30:03 d70 has joined
1859 2013-04-26 15:30:17 <wumpus> no scams or spams or nosy people etc
1860 2013-04-26 15:31:12 <owowo> and interestingly, the spam I get is only on those addresses I use for signing up to a pool
1861 2013-04-26 15:31:54 <HM2> well several pools have been compromised so it's logical that they would have cloned the address book
1862 2013-04-26 15:33:05 seeingidog__ has joined
1863 2013-04-26 15:33:16 <owowo> yes, unfortunately, your logic is not flawed
1864 2013-04-26 15:33:32 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1865 2013-04-26 15:33:39 <HM2> mailinator.com is great
1866 2013-04-26 15:34:04 i2pRelay has joined
1867 2013-04-26 15:34:45 shesek has joined
1868 2013-04-26 15:34:54 <grapevine> rawr
1869 2013-04-26 15:35:03 Michail1_ is now known as Michail1
1870 2013-04-26 15:35:23 <grapevine> woo
1871 2013-04-26 15:35:26 <grapevine> 1.6k in Q
1872 2013-04-26 15:36:47 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1873 2013-04-26 15:37:41 <nsh> grapevine, wat
1874 2013-04-26 15:38:09 PartTimeLegend has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1875 2013-04-26 15:38:19 t7 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1876 2013-04-26 15:38:26 GlitchNZ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1877 2013-04-26 15:38:28 <Jezzz> lol, someone signed the coinbase of block 232862 with an obituary
1878 2013-04-26 15:38:28 <Jezzz> "A nostro padre, Eugenio Longo, 12 luglio 1934 - 15 marzo 2006"
1879 2013-04-26 15:40:20 <jgarzik> wumpus: hehe, I get the same panicked user emails ;p
1880 2013-04-26 15:40:35 <jgarzik> "I lost my bitcoins, SURELY there is a way to recover them, that you are keeping secret"
1881 2013-04-26 15:41:27 GlitchNZ has joined
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1884 2013-04-26 15:42:07 i2pRelay has joined
1885 2013-04-26 15:44:52 <HM2> Just think, one day people will be able to lose their entire life savings in the blink of an eye
1886 2013-04-26 15:44:54 dvide has quit ()
1887 2013-04-26 15:45:27 <owowo> well, maybe then, ppl will learn to backup
1888 2013-04-26 15:45:44 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1889 2013-04-26 15:46:11 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1890 2013-04-26 15:46:18 <HM2> I saw a project, i think on reddit, by someone who had hooked up an arduino to a printer
1891 2013-04-26 15:46:25 <HM2> it was a 1 click generate and print device
1892 2013-04-26 15:46:41 <HM2> that seems like a pretty good idea to at least ensure there's a physical copy of a key
1893 2013-04-26 15:46:47 Sealy has quit (Quit: Sealy)
1894 2013-04-26 15:47:23 richcollins has joined
1895 2013-04-26 15:47:57 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Some of them are really sad. :(
1896 2013-04-26 15:48:09 <jgarzik> indeed
1897 2013-04-26 15:48:09 <SomeoneWeird> :S
1898 2013-04-26 15:48:49 <jgarzik> What else is sad? Wired has a BFL miner... but they did not check to see that it mines: http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/04/butterfly/
1899 2013-04-26 15:49:17 PartTimeLegend has joined
1900 2013-04-26 15:49:27 <jgarzik> "Weâve powered up the miner and can confirm that its little red light turns on, that it burns hot, and that it makes the sound of a toy hair dryer."
1901 2013-04-26 15:49:32 <HM2> It's more important just to photograph it like the black monolith from 2001 Space Odyssey
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1906 2013-04-26 15:52:09 * gmaxwell waits for the forum trolls "Box of fans ... and resistors!"
1907 2013-04-26 15:52:16 robocoin has joined
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1911 2013-04-26 15:53:01 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1912 2013-04-26 15:53:23 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I'm sorry for responding in that thread again. I'd happily ignored it completely until Jon emailed this morning and I felt obligated to read it to make sure I didn't cause any stupid claims. My eyes are still burning.
1913 2013-04-26 15:54:24 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: hehe, c'est la vie
1914 2013-04-26 15:54:46 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1915 2013-04-26 15:56:11 <saivann> jgarzik : good french speaking
1916 2013-04-26 15:56:19 Toresh has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1917 2013-04-26 15:56:20 <HM2> Dropping an "Inc" starts a shitstorm?
1918 2013-04-26 15:56:30 * HM2 wonders why he just joined Bitcointalk
1919 2013-04-26 15:57:05 <jgarzik> HM2: reference?
1920 2013-04-26 15:57:12 banghouse has joined
1921 2013-04-26 15:57:21 <gmaxwell> HM2: mostly you should ignore the general subforum.
1922 2013-04-26 15:57:28 <gmaxwell> HM2: the tech one is usually fine.
1923 2013-04-26 15:57:30 <jgarzik> saivann: haha, I wish :) Still on Rosetta Stone Unit 1, of French
1924 2013-04-26 15:57:33 Toresh has joined
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1926 2013-04-26 15:57:58 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: you don't really want a reference, do you? More forum stupidity.
1927 2013-04-26 15:58:04 <HM2> yeah I have no intention of leaving the tech and dev forum
1928 2013-04-26 15:58:05 paraipan has joined
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1930 2013-04-26 15:59:05 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: Depends on the level of shitstorm, forum or not ;p
1931 2013-04-26 15:59:10 <gmaxwell> HM2: it's helpful to imagine that people who hate bitcoin pay trolls to stink up the forum and make us all sound crazy. This is probably not actually true, but it easier to believe than that there really are people crazy enough to produce $(whatever noise that you think is crazy) naturally.
1932 2013-04-26 15:59:48 Casimir1904 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1933 2013-04-26 15:59:51 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Shitstom defcoin 4.9. Color blue.
1934 2013-04-26 16:00:06 Toresh_ has joined
1935 2013-04-26 16:00:32 <HM2> I'll keep that in mind
1936 2013-04-26 16:02:40 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
1937 2013-04-26 16:02:46 Toresh has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1938 2013-04-26 16:02:46 Toresh_ is now known as Toresh
1939 2013-04-26 16:03:30 <wumpus> indeed, people losing their coins is really sad, we cannot highlight it enough how important it is to make regular backups
1940 2013-04-26 16:03:58 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1941 2013-04-26 16:04:29 ColinT has joined
1942 2013-04-26 16:05:09 <HM2> to be fair, digital backups are emphasised atm
1943 2013-04-26 16:05:38 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1944 2013-04-26 16:05:42 <HM2> like Andreas' Bitcoin Wallet app. does private key backups but doesn't offer a way to print
1945 2013-04-26 16:05:59 <HM2> I'm not sure what the state of printing from Android is atm, but I have an app on my phone I use for printing straight to my printer
1946 2013-04-26 16:06:10 i2pRelay has joined
1947 2013-04-26 16:06:29 <wumpus> all kinds of backup are fine, even putting their (encrypted) wallet on dropbox is ok, losing coins due to data loss appears to be a much larger risk than theft
1948 2013-04-26 16:06:35 <wumpus> at least if the mails I get is anything to go by
1949 2013-04-26 16:06:48 <HM2> sure
1950 2013-04-26 16:07:06 <HM2> external storage on a phone though is actually internal on many phones now
1951 2013-04-26 16:07:10 <wumpus> but yes, having a separate paper/offline wallet if you have a lot of coins is a good idea
1952 2013-04-26 16:07:13 <HM2> and even if it isn't, the card is still inside the phone
1953 2013-04-26 16:07:51 <xeroc> i wrote a script that transfers 1BTC to newly generated addresses and prints paperwallets
1954 2013-04-26 16:08:22 <HM2> cool
1955 2013-04-26 16:08:50 safra has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1956 2013-04-26 16:08:57 <HM2> but yeah, even Google Drive integration would be a good thing to have for backups on an Android wallet
1957 2013-04-26 16:09:12 kuzetsa has quit (Quit: Stop doing that it. You don't want it to fall off.)
1958 2013-04-26 16:09:29 <alaricsp> Emailling yourself the wallet is pretty easy, too
1959 2013-04-26 16:09:47 <HM2> sure
1960 2013-04-26 16:10:15 <HM2> it's something i fear myself, i forget my card PINs all the time
1961 2013-04-26 16:10:27 sacredchao has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1964 2013-04-26 16:11:15 <wumpus> printing from android.. well there are some printer vendors that have an app, but I don't think there is a general way
1965 2013-04-26 16:11:41 <HM2> hmm it doesn't appear so
1966 2013-04-26 16:12:05 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: I'm working on fixing pull-tester....
1967 2013-04-26 16:12:12 <wumpus> for network printers mainly; connecting an usb printer will be very unlikely (though possible with some phones, you are'nt going to find drivers)
1968 2013-04-26 16:12:43 <HM2> Yeah, I use Brothers app, which lets me scan and print.
1969 2013-04-26 16:12:47 <HM2> Over wifi
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1977 2013-04-26 16:17:50 <nsh> printing is anachronistic anyway
1978 2013-04-26 16:17:54 <nsh> embrace ephemeris
1979 2013-04-26 16:18:18 <nsh> prostrate yourself before the holy rake of volatile storage
1980 2013-04-26 16:18:34 czaanja has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
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1984 2013-04-26 16:20:29 <CodeShark> who here does coding for en.bitcoin/it/wiki?
1985 2013-04-26 16:20:34 <CodeShark> who here does coding for en.bitcoin.it/wiki?
1986 2013-04-26 16:20:49 <gmaxwell> who here does coding for en.bitcoin.it/wiki??
1987 2013-04-26 16:21:01 <CodeShark> yes, who works on that site?
1988 2013-04-26 16:21:06 <gmaxwell> Magicaltux.
1989 2013-04-26 16:21:20 <CodeShark> I've been getting some php warnings
1990 2013-04-26 16:21:32 <gmaxwell> Yes, you and everyone else. This has happened before.
1991 2013-04-26 16:21:36 JDuke128 has joined
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1997 2013-04-26 16:23:36 <CodeShark> might be a good idea to 1) not display warnings to output (but enable debug level messages in logs) and 2) to fix it :p
1998 2013-04-26 16:23:49 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: The reason I suggest keeping the ==0 check in is that the motivation for it is somewhat different... and I think that someday we _may_ want to consider a network rule which actually prohibits 0 value outputs.
1999 2013-04-26 16:24:00 sl1982 has joined
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2001 2013-04-26 16:25:35 <SomeoneWeird> CodeShark, #bitcoin-wiki
2002 2013-04-26 16:26:08 <CodeShark> I've already got like a million IRC channels - I have to add another one?!?!? lol
2003 2013-04-26 16:27:39 * nsh won't cry if you leave here :)
2004 2013-04-26 16:27:59 dc8181_ has joined
2005 2013-04-26 16:28:16 <CodeShark> you will, nsh - you just don't know it yet
2006 2013-04-26 16:28:35 * nsh smiles
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2029 2013-04-26 16:54:07 <gavinandresen> Error building qt git head on my Mac: RCC: Error in 'src/qt/bitcoin.qrc': Cannot find file 'locale/bitcoin_se.qm' translation didn't get checked in maybe?
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2046 2013-04-26 17:07:08 <gavinandresen> pull tester is fixed
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2054 2013-04-26 17:15:10 <muhoo> what's the latest shitstorm about? i can't bear to look
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2057 2013-04-26 17:15:59 <muhoo> i figured once the price got up to.near where it was before the last shitstoorm, there'd be another shitstorm, but i haven't been watching
2058 2013-04-26 17:16:49 <nsh> why do you think pseudostochastic collective behaviours are in some way "about" things?
2059 2013-04-26 17:16:53 <nsh> +necessarily
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2068 2013-04-26 17:20:46 <gmaxwell> muhoo: no real shitstorm by bitcoin standards.
2069 2013-04-26 17:21:13 <gmaxwell> (or if there is one I'm not aware of it)
2070 2013-04-26 17:21:15 <TD> haha
2071 2013-04-26 17:21:26 <TD> it's a pretty normal level of flying shit for bitcoin indeed
2072 2013-04-26 17:21:54 <TD> so far we've had two pools get hacked, one exchange, one web wallet got hacked and became useless, another one revealed that their assurances around being unable to seize funds didn't hold
2073 2013-04-26 17:21:55 <gavinandresen> I unsubscribed from bitcoin/bitcoin.org github notifications, so I'm blissfully unaware
2074 2013-04-26 17:22:02 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: thanks, no rush
2075 2013-04-26 17:22:13 <gmaxwell> (The thread HM2 was referring to is https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=188177.0 but I think it's mostly pretty boring ... no one as even suggested hiring assassins yet)
2076 2013-04-26 17:22:22 * BlueMatt just got notified that his dnsseed potentially had malware on it because it was connected to a known mining-botnet-operator
2077 2013-04-26 17:22:38 <TD> who gets to be listed as an interview contact turned into a giant argument. and for some reason i don't really understand a bunch more "bitcoin foundation is run by the illuminati" threads sprung up
2078 2013-04-26 17:22:52 <TD> BlueMatt: oh? would be interested to learn more about that
2079 2013-04-26 17:23:47 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: Pool operators get those constantly, and also get listed in anti-malware blacklists.
2080 2013-04-26 17:23:51 nsillik_ has joined
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2082 2013-04-26 17:23:59 nsillik_ is now known as nsillik
2083 2013-04-26 17:24:08 <BlueMatt> heh, yea, I cant say its surprising, I just found it interesting
2084 2013-04-26 17:24:14 <TD> there is/was also an attempt to spread trojaned multibits using a phishing site
2085 2013-04-26 17:24:58 <denisx> what means "WalletUpdateSpent found spent coin 5.76991777bc ee497d31438490fffaef86167434769d34938fb98546177c22243ce5f9d68656" in debug.log?
2086 2013-04-26 17:25:12 <BlueMatt> TD: meh, what else would they know?
2087 2013-04-26 17:25:19 <gmaxwell> denisx: it learned from the network that ee497d31438490fffaef86167434769d34938fb98546177c22243ce5f9d68656 spent a coin in your wallet.
2088 2013-04-26 17:25:39 <denisx> gmaxwell: ok, normal behavior?
2089 2013-04-26 17:25:43 <gmaxwell> TD: How complex was the trojaning? Was it even multibit?
2090 2013-04-26 17:25:57 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2091 2013-04-26 17:25:57 <TD> it was quite well done
2092 2013-04-26 17:26:00 <gmaxwell> denisx: assuming thats a restored backup wallet or a copy of a wallet that is running someplace else.
2093 2013-04-26 17:26:17 <TD> it's a regular multibit that starts a new thread at startup. it calculates your balance and queries a c&c server with the balance as a url param
2094 2013-04-26 17:26:24 <TD> the server responds back with an address if your wallet is worth stealing
2095 2013-04-26 17:26:29 i2pRelay has joined
2096 2013-04-26 17:26:34 <TD> presumably as an attempt to beat traitor tracing
2097 2013-04-26 17:26:36 <gmaxwell> TD: I ask because all the trojans I've seen so far have been poor. E.g. there was "bitcoinqt" on sourceforge which was just some crackerjack wallet stealer written in visual basic.
2098 2013-04-26 17:26:37 <denisx> gmaxwell: no, it is a fresh wallet
2099 2013-04-26 17:26:55 <gmaxwell> denisx: uhhhh
2100 2013-04-26 17:27:01 <gmaxwell> denisx: as in never made a transaction before?
2101 2013-04-26 17:27:05 <TD> if you get back an address it creates a spend and broadcasts it, sending your wallet off into the ether
2102 2013-04-26 17:27:16 <denisx> gmaxwell: I made some transactions already
2103 2013-04-26 17:27:32 <TD> the website was a duplicate of the multibit website with a slightly different name and was being advertised via adwords. the campaign is dead and the site should be blacklisted soon, i think
2104 2013-04-26 17:27:54 <denisx> gmaxwell: but some of them suddenly get no confirmations (looks like it stopped working)
2105 2013-04-26 17:28:02 <gmaxwell> TD: I assume they paid for the adwords using some stolen CC? ::(
2106 2013-04-26 17:28:32 <TD> no clue. i haven't chased that up.
2107 2013-04-26 17:28:40 czaanja has joined
2108 2013-04-26 17:29:07 <TD> it seems the stealer code couldn't handle encrypted wallets, interestingly
2109 2013-04-26 17:29:14 <TD> and it was win/linux only. no mac.
2110 2013-04-26 17:29:29 <TD> not sure if that's due to lack of mac hardware by the attacker (likely) or gatekeeper (unlikely, at this stage in the game)
2111 2013-04-26 17:30:59 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2112 2013-04-26 17:33:57 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2113 2013-04-26 17:34:29 i2pRelay has joined
2114 2013-04-26 17:34:30 <gmaxwell> If ever you feel irritated about the reliablity of random windows desktopsâ http://jakepoz.com/soviet_debugging.html :P
2115 2013-04-26 17:37:14 <CodeShark> lol - can ionizing radiation really affect semiconductors like that?
2116 2013-04-26 17:37:27 <CodeShark> I mean, obviously they can....but, I mean...
2117 2013-04-26 17:37:34 <TD> see, this is what makes me a western-government loving establishment man
2118 2013-04-26 17:37:43 <TD> CodeShark: hell yes
2119 2013-04-26 17:37:46 <jgarzik> it's fun, reading all the stuff they do to harden satellite computers
2120 2013-04-26 17:37:51 <TD> i believe we've measured the impact cosmic ray bitflips have on our datasets at google
2121 2013-04-26 17:37:56 * TD doesn't recall the results
2122 2013-04-26 17:37:58 <jgarzik> not necessarily related, but: tin whiskers
2123 2013-04-26 17:38:13 <CodeShark> so the fix is to encase the circuitboards in lead? :)
2124 2013-04-26 17:38:35 <TD> for a long time, maybe they still do, Intel made special versions of very old chips , like 286 era
2125 2013-04-26 17:38:39 <jgarzik> hehe, would be nice if there were huge supplies of in-orbit lead, but alas
2126 2013-04-26 17:38:46 <TD> and the reason is those were the only chips on the market that were rad-hard
2127 2013-04-26 17:39:13 <TD> http://www.sandia.gov/media/rhp.htm
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2134 2013-04-26 17:45:47 <CodeShark> I suppose another way to tackle the issue is with redundancy and error-correcting codes
2135 2013-04-26 17:45:55 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: oh sure. We observe obvious random bit errors in Bitcoin users from time to timeâ e.g. people have shown up with bits clearly flipped on blocks they accepted.
2136 2013-04-26 17:46:46 <gmaxwell> A fun thing is the bitsquatting paper where they registered 1 hamming distance variations of a number of highly popular domain names and got lots of traffic from confused clients.
2137 2013-04-26 17:47:16 cjsw3 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2138 2013-04-26 17:47:24 agricocb has joined
2139 2013-04-26 17:47:34 <TD> gmaxwell: check who owns the bit-flipped google.com domains now :p
2140 2013-04-26 17:48:29 <denisx> is walletpassphrase with a timeout of 0 allowed?
2141 2013-04-26 17:48:37 <denisx> and what should happen then?
2142 2013-04-26 17:49:25 <denisx> I had this in my payoutdaemon to test the key at start but then bitcoind crashes when the deamon tries to make a transaction
2143 2013-04-26 17:49:59 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2144 2013-04-26 17:50:18 <gmaxwell> There may be some stupid race with relocking. I wouldn't be surprised. I'd expect an time 0 zero to instantly relock.
2145 2013-04-26 17:50:31 i2pRelay has joined
2146 2013-04-26 17:50:37 <TD> eg "whois wwwngoogle-analytics.com"
2147 2013-04-26 17:50:45 <TD> anyway
2148 2013-04-26 17:50:49 * TD -> home
2149 2013-04-26 17:51:11 TD has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2150 2013-04-26 17:51:36 <gmaxwell> td: yea, I looked at gongle.com :)
2151 2013-04-26 17:51:50 <Scrat> </td>
2152 2013-04-26 17:54:14 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
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2156 2013-04-26 17:58:34 i2pRelay has joined
2157 2013-04-26 18:04:14 Diapolo has joined
2158 2013-04-26 18:04:34 <Diapolo> sipa: gmaxwell: any news on the LevelDB issue?
2159 2013-04-26 18:05:19 chmod755 has quit (Quit: chmod755)
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2167 2013-04-26 18:10:12 ralphthe1inja is now known as ralphtheninja
2168 2013-04-26 18:10:32 HM2 has joined
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2170 2013-04-26 18:12:38 <sipa> Diapolo: no, but you'll be able to help us debug it :p
2171 2013-04-26 18:13:01 da2ce7_d has joined
2172 2013-04-26 18:13:31 <sipa> Diapolo: i don't understand it at all though, when i do a resync i never even have more than a few files open at the same time... limiting to 64 doesn't make any difference at all
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2176 2013-04-26 18:14:40 HM2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2177 2013-04-26 18:14:59 <gmaxwell> Diapolo: if there is indeed some kind of corruption arising from the lower limit then it's also possible that it could happen with the higher default limit once the databases get a bit larger. So its important to actually fix it if its there.
2178 2013-04-26 18:15:01 darenthis has joined
2179 2013-04-26 18:15:17 HM2 has joined
2180 2013-04-26 18:15:26 <gmaxwell> Unfortunately this is all a bit potentially confused by the fact that we knew that windows users were sometimes reporting this prior to the change.
2181 2013-04-26 18:15:30 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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2185 2013-04-26 18:19:56 <Diapolo> I never had that error before this change AFAIK...
2186 2013-04-26 18:20:33 <Diapolo> I'll see how many open files my official 0.8.1 has...
2187 2013-04-26 18:20:34 darenthis has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2188 2013-04-26 18:21:00 <ryan-c> anyone have docs on generating a WIF private key for compressed keys?
2189 2013-04-26 18:21:14 holorga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2190 2013-04-26 18:21:27 <ryan-c> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_import_format < this only seems to work with uncompressed keys
2191 2013-04-26 18:22:08 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2192 2013-04-26 18:22:40 i2pRelay has joined
2193 2013-04-26 18:24:57 <HM2> http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-04/26/large-bitcoin-exchanges-attacks
2194 2013-04-26 18:25:00 <HM2> this is hilarious
2195 2013-04-26 18:25:10 <sipa> ryan-c: for compressed keys, add a 0x01 after the secret
2196 2013-04-26 18:25:14 <HM2> 45% !!! ....of a tiny tiny business
2197 2013-04-26 18:26:12 coderrr has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2198 2013-04-26 18:26:33 egis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2199 2013-04-26 18:27:02 <ryan-c> sipa: How does that cause the prefix to change from 5 to L/K?
2200 2013-04-26 18:27:37 rowit has joined
2201 2013-04-26 18:28:06 <sipa> ryan-c: mystics of base58 encoding :)
2202 2013-04-26 18:28:08 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: sipa: 182 open files currently
2203 2013-04-26 18:28:13 akl has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2204 2013-04-26 18:28:16 <sipa> Diapolo: how do you know?
2205 2013-04-26 18:28:19 dub has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2206 2013-04-26 18:28:26 ShapeShifter499 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2207 2013-04-26 18:28:26 Aexoden_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2208 2013-04-26 18:28:29 <Diapolo> E:\Ins\Tools\!Tools\SysinternalsSuite>handle.exe -s -p bitcoin-qt.exe
2209 2013-04-26 18:28:35 peper has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2210 2013-04-26 18:28:44 <Diapolo> it's a Sysinternals tool from MS
2211 2013-04-26 18:28:54 linagee has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2212 2013-04-26 18:28:54 asoltys has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2213 2013-04-26 18:29:05 <sipa> right
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2217 2013-04-26 18:29:11 bVector has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2218 2013-04-26 18:29:14 <sipa> how does that number evolve over time?
2219 2013-04-26 18:29:16 Aexoden has joined
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2222 2013-04-26 18:29:35 linagee has joined
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2224 2013-04-26 18:29:49 <Diapolo> I have no information about this yet
2225 2013-04-26 18:29:59 <ryan-c> sipa: given the example on the WIF wiki page, I would do base58check encoding on 800C28FCA386C7A227600B2FE50B7CAE11EC86D3BF1FBE471BE89827E19D72AA1D01A62019D2 (unhexed first of course)?
2226 2013-04-26 18:30:09 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2227 2013-04-26 18:30:41 i2pRelay has joined
2228 2013-04-26 18:31:31 <sipa> ryan-c: for a compressed pubkey, it'd be 800C28FCA386C7A227600B2FE50B7CAE11EC86D3BF1FBE471BE89827E19D72AA1D01A62019D201
2229 2013-04-26 18:32:01 <ryan-c> sipa: oh, the 01 goes *after* the checksum?
2230 2013-04-26 18:32:08 JDuke128 has joined
2231 2013-04-26 18:32:10 <sipa> no, before checksumming
2232 2013-04-26 18:32:24 <ryan-c> did i compute the checksum wrong?
2233 2013-04-26 18:32:43 <sipa> i can't do SHA256 by heart
2234 2013-04-26 18:33:03 <sipa> but you said "base58check encoding", so i assumed you didn't add the checksum yet
2235 2013-04-26 18:33:04 <ryan-c> echo -n 800C28FCA386C7A227600B2FE50B7CAE11EC86D3BF1FBE471BE89827E19D72AA1D01 | xxd -r -p | sha256sum | awk '{print$1}' | xxd -r -p | sha256sum
2236 2013-04-26 18:33:25 <Diapolo> sipa: build with the patch applied has now 76 open file handles, during IBD 94 weeks behind
2237 2013-04-26 18:33:31 <ryan-c> which gives a result starting with a62019d2
2238 2013-04-26 18:33:46 toffoo has joined
2239 2013-04-26 18:33:53 <sipa> ryan-c: ok, sounds good then
2240 2013-04-26 18:33:58 <ryan-c> sipa: so it looks like you added 01 before and after the checksum?
2241 2013-04-26 18:34:02 <Diapolo> flows in the range 71 to 74 currently
2242 2013-04-26 18:34:12 peper has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2243 2013-04-26 18:34:14 <Diapolo> 75 now
2244 2013-04-26 18:34:24 <ryan-c> sipa: oh, sorry, fail
2245 2013-04-26 18:34:36 <sipa> ryan-c: i just added a 01 to what you said, assuming it didn't have a checksum yet
2246 2013-04-26 18:34:46 <ryan-c> sipa: Yeah, I'd already added the checksum
2247 2013-04-26 18:34:47 <sipa> Diapolo: can you list the names of those files?
2248 2013-04-26 18:35:02 dust-otc has joined
2249 2013-04-26 18:35:07 <sipa> ryan-c: then it's just base58 encoding that remains, not base58check :)
2250 2013-04-26 18:35:16 <ryan-c> sipa: ah
2251 2013-04-26 18:35:34 peper has joined
2252 2013-04-26 18:35:34 <sipa> Diapolo: because that looks a large number
2253 2013-04-26 18:35:43 ShapeShifter499 has joined
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2255 2013-04-26 18:36:38 <ryan-c> sipa: okay, so I get KwdMAjGmerYanjeui5SHS7JkmpZvVipYvB2LJGU1ZxJwYvP98617
2256 2013-04-26 18:37:20 <sipa> looks good; try it?
2257 2013-04-26 18:38:02 <ryan-c> sipa: that matches what brainwallet.org calculates
2258 2013-04-26 18:38:10 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2259 2013-04-26 18:38:15 <ryan-c> and bitaddress.org
2260 2013-04-26 18:38:34 <Diapolo> sipa: handle.txt
2261 2013-04-26 18:38:34 <Diapolo> https://mega.co.nz/#!qJ02nbwC!R-qd0FWfInu5eeOGrFNvRUK3sQFzSXgqqyfDYJhAFn4
2262 2013-04-26 18:38:41 i2pRelay has joined
2263 2013-04-26 18:38:49 <ryan-c> sipa: thanks.
2264 2013-04-26 18:39:17 <ryan-c> what is the endianness on base58 encoding?
2265 2013-04-26 18:40:08 peper has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2266 2013-04-26 18:40:18 <sipa> big endian
2267 2013-04-26 18:40:22 <Diapolo> gmaxwell: was there anything suspicious with the coinstate folder I upped for you?
2268 2013-04-26 18:40:28 <ryan-c> weird.
2269 2013-04-26 18:40:54 <sipa> Diapolo: you have txindex enabled?
2270 2013-04-26 18:41:15 asoltys has joined
2271 2013-04-26 18:41:27 <ryan-c> I'm not groking how changing a byte at the end modifies the encoded value.
2272 2013-04-26 18:41:30 <ryan-c> er
2273 2013-04-26 18:41:42 <sipa> ryan-c: look at converting from decimal to hex
2274 2013-04-26 18:41:54 <ryan-c> the beginning of the encoded value - unless it's the length?
2275 2013-04-26 18:42:01 peper has joined
2276 2013-04-26 18:42:11 <sipa> 999999 in hex is F423F
2277 2013-04-26 18:42:16 <Diapolo> sipa: yes
2278 2013-04-26 18:42:20 <sipa> 9999999 in hex is 98967F
2279 2013-04-26 18:42:34 <sipa> ryan-c: does that surprise you too?
2280 2013-04-26 18:42:36 <ryan-c> oh, derp, right, it's changing which bits go into which encoded character
2281 2013-04-26 18:43:00 <Diapolo> sipa: I don't need it, but I wanted to be a full node and left it on
2282 2013-04-26 18:43:06 <ryan-c> sorry, not quite awake enough this morning, makes sense now
2283 2013-04-26 18:43:34 <sipa> Diapolo: and how far in the chain is this?
2284 2013-04-26 18:43:53 <ryan-c> I get it - and the leading character is controlled by the version byte which is 0x80 instead of 0x00
2285 2013-04-26 18:44:15 <Diapolo> 137063 blocks downloaded
2286 2013-04-26 18:44:27 <Diapolo> 92 weeks behind
2287 2013-04-26 18:44:41 <ryan-c> sipa: thanks again
2288 2013-04-26 18:44:48 <Diapolo> file count is now ~87, no crash currently
2289 2013-04-26 18:45:13 <Diapolo> sipa: crashed now
2290 2013-04-26 18:45:21 Plarkplark_ has joined
2291 2013-04-26 18:45:25 orblivion has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2292 2013-04-26 18:45:30 <Diapolo> sipa: 90 files were open
2293 2013-04-26 18:46:11 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2294 2013-04-26 18:46:23 <Diapolo> sipa: handle-crash.txt
2295 2013-04-26 18:46:23 <Diapolo> https://mega.co.nz/#!2I8AGT6Q!F2nqwgRpIXfC0TMgLfCA_wlBi-pIfg1n9XB6n1GqmoI
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2300 2013-04-26 18:47:15 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: you around?
2301 2013-04-26 18:47:52 sanchaz has joined
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2304 2013-04-26 18:47:56 macbook-air has joined
2305 2013-04-26 18:48:02 <Diapolo> sipa: I'm off in a few mins, does that new information help you?
2306 2013-04-26 18:48:24 <macbook-air> hello, i mined two blocks with the same coinbase tx, did i lost the reward for the second block?
2307 2013-04-26 18:49:16 <denisx> macbook-air: you orphaned yourself?
2308 2013-04-26 18:49:26 <macbook-air> no, it got accepted. namecoin
2309 2013-04-26 18:49:35 <macbook-air> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=188524.0
2310 2013-04-26 18:49:42 <macbook-air> both block got accepted
2311 2013-04-26 18:49:48 <macbook-air> with the same coinbase tx in it...
2312 2013-04-26 18:50:01 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: hm?
2313 2013-04-26 18:50:09 <denisx> namecoin is still alive?
2314 2013-04-26 18:50:12 <sipa> macbook-air: ask namecoin people
2315 2013-04-26 18:50:25 <sipa> macbook-air: in bitcoin it would be invalid
2316 2013-04-26 18:50:49 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
2317 2013-04-26 18:52:02 <macbook-air> hmm
2318 2013-04-26 18:52:14 <macbook-air> but where are the "namecoin people"
2319 2013-04-26 18:52:22 peper has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2320 2013-04-26 18:52:44 <Diapolo> #namecoin-dev perhaps ^^?
2321 2013-04-26 18:52:46 asoltys has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2322 2013-04-26 18:53:28 <macbook-air> why this could happen⦠the coinbase was the same
2323 2013-04-26 18:53:33 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: may I pm you?
2324 2013-04-26 18:53:39 <macbook-air> it's simply CScript() << pblock->nBits << CBigNum(1) << OP_2;
2325 2013-04-26 18:53:41 <Diapolo> sipa: and?
2326 2013-04-26 18:54:10 asoltys has joined
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2328 2013-04-26 18:54:20 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: If not, I can happily ignore you without you first asking here. :P
2329 2013-04-26 18:54:45 i2pRelay has joined
2330 2013-04-26 18:55:32 vucx has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2331 2013-04-26 18:56:09 <sipa> Diapolo: are you doing any RPCs at the same time?
2332 2013-04-26 18:56:16 avantgeek has joined
2333 2013-04-26 18:57:13 <Steve132_> Is there a good pseudocode for the mining algorithm?
2334 2013-04-26 18:57:14 <Diapolo> nothing, just IBD
2335 2013-04-26 18:57:17 <Steve132_> somewhere
2336 2013-04-26 18:57:26 bVector has joined
2337 2013-04-26 18:57:47 Diablo-D3 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2338 2013-04-26 18:57:52 <Diapolo> sipa: the client is just started (Bitcoin-Qt) and starts downloading blocks
2339 2013-04-26 18:58:06 Steve132_ is now known as Steve132
2340 2013-04-26 18:58:22 <Diapolo> sipa: bitcoin-qt.exe -datadir="C:\Users\Diapolo\AppData\Roaming\Bitcoin" -debug -logtimestamps -benchmark -txindex -style fusion
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2342 2013-04-26 18:58:48 asoltys has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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2346 2013-04-26 18:59:28 <gmaxwell> sipa: where is the post on your KDF-ish thing?
2347 2013-04-26 19:00:01 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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2350 2013-04-26 19:02:47 <Diapolo> I'm off sorry
2351 2013-04-26 19:02:48 Diapolo has left ()
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2353 2013-04-26 19:02:51 <sipa> gmaxwell: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102349.0
2354 2013-04-26 19:06:13 Michail1 has joined
2355 2013-04-26 19:06:41 brson has joined
2356 2013-04-26 19:06:46 gbadmin has joined
2357 2013-04-26 19:07:36 <gbadmin> good evening
2358 2013-04-26 19:07:47 orblivion has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2359 2013-04-26 19:08:36 <gbadmin> I would need some thorough information about colored bitcoins
2360 2013-04-26 19:08:37 Namworld has joined
2361 2013-04-26 19:08:41 <gbadmin> am I in the right place? :)
2362 2013-04-26 19:08:52 vucx has joined
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2383 2013-04-26 19:21:43 <helo> if you want information about how bitcoin code needs to change to support colored coin, this is probably the right place. for "what is it?" type questions, #bitcoin is probably better.
2384 2013-04-26 19:22:57 Skami has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2385 2013-04-26 19:24:03 <owowo> what color are those colored coins?
2386 2013-04-26 19:26:12 marr has joined
2387 2013-04-26 19:26:12 <EvilPete> nice.. http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/branches.html 88.7% >= 0.8
2388 2013-04-26 19:26:23 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2389 2013-04-26 19:26:35 pandamaci has joined
2390 2013-04-26 19:26:41 <pandamaci> hi guys
2391 2013-04-26 19:26:54 i2pRelay has joined
2392 2013-04-26 19:27:00 <pandamaci> I am really interested about colored bitcoins
2393 2013-04-26 19:27:07 <pandamaci> for an online game
2394 2013-04-26 19:28:47 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
2395 2013-04-26 19:29:15 <pandamaci> is there some client I could use, or do I have to write my own one?
2396 2013-04-26 19:29:24 asoltys has joined
2397 2013-04-26 19:29:56 <ryan-c> what?
2398 2013-04-26 19:30:08 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
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2412 2013-04-26 19:37:58 <Plarkplark_> Hi
2413 2013-04-26 19:38:10 orblivion has joined
2414 2013-04-26 19:38:34 <Plarkplark_> Testing a bit for fun with btc. Trying to get a fresh compile working as a test. How do you get the client to mine the genesis block?
2415 2013-04-26 19:38:47 <Plarkplark_> vanilla btc
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2440 2013-04-26 20:00:14 <nospinzy> If i do a send many do all the transaction accure a .00005 minners fee?
2441 2013-04-26 20:00:47 <sipa> no
2442 2013-04-26 20:01:25 <nospinzy> then why is blockchain charging me .0015 for a transaction fee
2443 2013-04-26 20:01:33 <nospinzy> when i put in a fee of .00005
2444 2013-04-26 20:02:20 toffoo has quit ()
2445 2013-04-26 20:02:58 <helo> you should ask them... they aren't really related to the bitcoin devs
2446 2013-04-26 20:03:12 <nospinzy> yes they are
2447 2013-04-26 20:03:19 <nospinzy> because im want to use their api
2448 2013-04-26 20:03:26 <nospinzy> to sendmany and no one helps me
2449 2013-04-26 20:03:36 <nospinzy> not here not anywhere
2450 2013-04-26 20:03:49 <helo> you're talking about blockchain.info?
2451 2013-04-26 20:04:26 <nospinzy> yes
2452 2013-04-26 20:04:38 <nospinzy> https://blockchain.info/api/blockchain_wallet_api
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2459 2013-04-26 20:07:08 <EvilPete> nospinzy: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees - 0.0005 per kb.. maybe you have a complex transaction and that bumps it to 3k? it might explain where they're geting 0.0015 from
2460 2013-04-26 20:07:45 <nospinzy> :|
2461 2013-04-26 20:07:53 <nospinzy> im sending likek 100-200 payments
2462 2013-04-26 20:08:05 <helo> the fees required by a particular e-wallet depend on what the devs/management of that e-wallet have determined they will charge. blockchain.info sendmany isn't the same as bitcoind sendmany.
2463 2013-04-26 20:08:07 <EvilPete> nospinzy: 0.00005 is nearly pointless. It counts as "no fee attached", so if a fee is required, the network will reject it.
2464 2013-04-26 20:08:28 suporte85 has quit (Quit: Saindo)
2465 2013-04-26 20:08:31 <nospinzy> so .00005 isnt the standard?
2466 2013-04-26 20:08:41 <EvilPete> Nope. 0.0005 per kb
2467 2013-04-26 20:08:43 <nospinzy> o
2468 2013-04-26 20:08:46 <nospinzy> mybad
2469 2013-04-26 20:08:59 agath_pd is now known as agath
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2471 2013-04-26 20:09:16 <EvilPete> remember:
2472 2013-04-26 20:09:17 <EvilPete> A transaction will be sent without fees if these conditions are met:
2473 2013-04-26 20:09:17 <EvilPete> It is smaller than 10 thousand bytes.
2474 2013-04-26 20:09:17 <EvilPete> All outputs are 0.01 BTC or larger.
2475 2013-04-26 20:09:17 <EvilPete> Its priority is large enough
2476 2013-04-26 20:09:32 <EvilPete> if you
2477 2013-04-26 20:09:56 <nospinzy> i got it down to .0002
2478 2013-04-26 20:09:58 <EvilPete> if you're sending 100-200 payments and any are below 0.01, then a fee is required
2479 2013-04-26 20:10:18 <nospinzy> i still need to figure out this api cause im inputing all this data in manually
2480 2013-04-26 20:10:25 <nospinzy> which is realy real dumb
2481 2013-04-26 20:10:36 <EvilPete> do read https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees - if you don't follow the rules, you'll end up with an unconfirmable transaction
2482 2013-04-26 20:10:51 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2483 2013-04-26 20:10:51 <nospinzy> it will never confirm?
2484 2013-04-26 20:11:02 xdrake has joined
2485 2013-04-26 20:11:08 <theorbtwo> "It's priority is large enough", implies "if it's been long enough since it got sent"?
2486 2013-04-26 20:11:20 <sipa> theorbtwo: no
2487 2013-04-26 20:11:34 <sipa> it means that the sum of its input values multiplied by their age is large enough
2488 2013-04-26 20:11:41 <EvilPete> there was one a few weeks ago that I asked about.. there was a 0.001 output and no fees.. it timed out on the network after being unconfirmed for a few days
2489 2013-04-26 20:12:01 nus- has joined
2490 2013-04-26 20:12:03 <nospinzy> what happens to the money
2491 2013-04-26 20:12:54 ColinT has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2492 2013-04-26 20:13:09 <EvilPete> what will happen is all the bitcoind's will refuse to relay the transaction and will drop it. it'll look like this:
2493 2013-04-26 20:13:12 <EvilPete> 2013-04-25 01:54:51 ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : not enough fees 3784035848a3a6a4ea835a652aa42b4add9a089435c8ab87e6be8887422852a4, 0 < 10000
2494 2013-04-26 20:14:26 <EvilPete> nospinzy: do read https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
2495 2013-04-26 20:14:38 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2496 2013-04-26 20:14:39 chorao has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
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2499 2013-04-26 20:15:16 <theorbtwo> Hm, I wonder how much money there is in now-unconfirmable transactions.
2500 2013-04-26 20:15:49 nus has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2501 2013-04-26 20:16:00 <nospinzy> ok i figured out the problem
2502 2013-04-26 20:16:25 <EvilPete> nospinzy: some miners will mine fee-required txn's without fees, but only if they get to hear about them. I don't know how long till bitcoind gives up trying to resend, vs using pywallet to fix it by removing the unconfirmable one from the wallet.dat file
2503 2013-04-26 20:16:41 <ProfMac> why not let the market take care of fees. If there are larger fees to mine, the underpaid one will languish or even expire.
2504 2013-04-26 20:16:44 <nospinzy> i was trying in .00005 so it was just reverting to the fee of .0005 per kb , and was giving me a much larger fee or something
2505 2013-04-26 20:16:47 Beef has joined
2506 2013-04-26 20:16:50 <gmaxwell> EvilPete: I'm not sure if any such miners exist anymore.
2507 2013-04-26 20:16:55 <nospinzy> because im sending .00001 transactions thats why
2508 2013-04-26 20:17:04 <nospinzy> and im not paying more in fees then in coin
2509 2013-04-26 20:17:08 <gmaxwell> (or at least, any that have _no_ requirement, some have different requirements)
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2513 2013-04-26 20:17:26 <gmaxwell> nospinzy: As I advised you previously, don't do that.
2514 2013-04-26 20:17:32 <nospinzy> i am
2515 2013-04-26 20:17:35 <nospinzy> and i have been
2516 2013-04-26 20:17:38 <gmaxwell> nospinzy: it's not supported because its hostile to the network.
2517 2013-04-26 20:17:40 <nospinzy> its a faucet
2518 2013-04-26 20:17:47 <nospinzy> im not spaming anything
2519 2013-04-26 20:17:57 <theorbtwo> The market does take care of it, what's being described is the normal policy.
2520 2013-04-26 20:18:09 <gmaxwell> nospinzy: You're giving people coins they cannot actually spend, it's a trap for newbies that don't know better.
2521 2013-04-26 20:18:34 MobGod has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2522 2013-04-26 20:18:36 <nospinzy> how is giving them free money a trap
2523 2013-04-26 20:18:39 <nospinzy> thats how i got started
2524 2013-04-26 20:18:51 <nospinzy> and i never would have got into this if i didnt get small portions fo the coin
2525 2013-04-26 20:18:59 <gmaxwell> because they cannot spend the .00001 bitcoin you give them.
2526 2013-04-26 20:19:08 <nospinzy> yea when it builds up they can
2527 2013-04-26 20:19:10 vucx has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2528 2013-04-26 20:19:15 <nospinzy> there are other ways to earn also that i have on my site
2529 2013-04-26 20:19:21 <gmaxwell> nospinzy: then make one transaction to pay them the full amount.
2530 2013-04-26 20:19:42 <nospinzy> im going to try it and seee what happens
2531 2013-04-26 20:19:47 <nospinzy> not much at risk
2532 2013-04-26 20:19:48 <gmaxwell> (and no, part of the problem is with payments sufficiently small they can never build up to become spendable, because they're less than the marginal fee impact)
2533 2013-04-26 20:19:58 <nospinzy> yes but they do it anyways
2534 2013-04-26 20:20:03 <nospinzy> i do it also
2535 2013-04-26 20:20:14 <nospinzy> because its interesting to let the free market work
2536 2013-04-26 20:20:20 <gmaxwell> It sure is.
2537 2013-04-26 20:20:30 <nospinzy> thats what this is about and already people are laying down the law
2538 2013-04-26 20:21:14 <gmaxwell> In any case, you've been given expert advice twice now and chosen to ignore it. Your warranty is void. Good luck, and I hope you don't mind being free market roadkill too much.
2539 2013-04-26 20:22:16 <EvilPete> There's considerable writing on the 'unspendable outputs' problem on bitcointalk
2540 2013-04-26 20:22:33 <sipa> nospinzy: many nonspendable coins together do not becomea spendable one
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2543 2013-04-26 20:23:34 ProfMac has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2544 2013-04-26 20:24:31 <nospinzy> Internet forum bilderberg group
2545 2013-04-26 20:24:44 PhantomSpark has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2546 2013-04-26 20:26:53 <EvilPete> nospinzy: suppose 100 bytes to spend a .00001 coin. minimum fee is 0.0005 per k. suppose you have 50 x 0.00001 to spend to try and match the fee, that takes 5kb, which now means 0.0250 in fees to spend the dust you're creating.
2547 2013-04-26 20:27:06 <EvilPete> (not actual numbers, just an example)
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2553 2013-04-26 20:29:49 <EvilPete> to reach the 0.01 output to qualify as "free" that's 1000 x 0.00001 "coins" and well.. its not going to meet the <= 10k requirement. it'll require 0.05 in fees
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2556 2013-04-26 20:30:58 <EvilPete> nospinzy: the current fee structure just doesn't lend itself to low-budget faucet operations.
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2560 2013-04-26 20:35:23 vucx has joined
2561 2013-04-26 20:36:05 <EvilPete> grep 'not enough fees' debug.log | wc -l
2562 2013-04-26 20:36:06 <EvilPete> 26054
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2566 2013-04-26 20:37:44 <nospinzy> https://blockchain.info/tx/e63814caa117b161e34d10eea524eb3c7512600882466ab6c3ac872e390ca9a6
2567 2013-04-26 20:37:50 <nospinzy> this is a transaction i just sent
2568 2013-04-26 20:38:45 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2569 2013-04-26 20:38:55 <nospinzy> will see if it confirms
2570 2013-04-26 20:39:16 i2pRelay has joined
2571 2013-04-26 20:40:20 <gmaxwell> that doesn't mean the actual _outputs_ from that are spendable, which is what we've been telling you.
2572 2013-04-26 20:40:44 CodesInChaos has joined
2573 2013-04-26 20:41:05 <EvilPete> 2013-04-26 20:12:53 CTxMemPool::accept() : accepted e63814caa1 (poolsz 572)
2574 2013-04-26 20:41:06 <nospinzy> they are spendable what you add them up
2575 2013-04-26 20:41:13 <EvilPete> nospinzy: nope
2576 2013-04-26 20:41:13 <nospinzy> when*
2577 2013-04-26 20:41:17 <nospinzy> how arnt they
2578 2013-04-26 20:41:22 <nospinzy> i spent mine
2579 2013-04-26 20:41:46 <nospinzy> its a half a cent
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2583 2013-04-26 20:42:43 <EvilPete> When you add up the bytes required to spend each one, it takes more in fees to spend it than you can gather together
2584 2013-04-26 20:43:29 <nospinzy> im not sure you understand
2585 2013-04-26 20:43:41 Guest8039 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2586 2013-04-26 20:44:07 <EvilPete> nospinzy: suppose you have 1000 x 0.000001 payments
2587 2013-04-26 20:44:10 <EvilPete> err
2588 2013-04-26 20:44:11 <etotheipi_> nospinzy: if *all* you have in your wallet are those outputs... you can't spend them. ever. you have to *add* external money inputs in order to make them spendable
2589 2013-04-26 20:44:19 <EvilPete> 0.00001 BTC
2590 2013-04-26 20:44:31 <nospinzy> ok im listening go on
2591 2013-04-26 20:44:55 <EvilPete> suppose it takes 100 bytes to spend each 0.00001..
2592 2013-04-26 20:45:01 <nospinzy> .00001 x 1000 is .01
2593 2013-04-26 20:45:03 Transisto has joined
2594 2013-04-26 20:45:12 <nospinzy> that gives you a dollar
2595 2013-04-26 20:45:16 <EvilPete> (not the actual number but its good enough for the demo)
2596 2013-04-26 20:45:22 <nospinzy> you cant spend that? i guess you cant spend it because i spent it
2597 2013-04-26 20:45:27 <EvilPete> then spending 1000 x 0.00001 takes 100k transaction
2598 2013-04-26 20:45:43 <EvilPete> which requires 0.05 in fees
2599 2013-04-26 20:45:54 <nospinzy> the sender is paying the fees
2600 2013-04-26 20:45:57 <nospinzy> what dont you understand
2601 2013-04-26 20:45:57 <EvilPete> ie: you have to get more money to add as fees in order to send it
2602 2013-04-26 20:45:59 <nospinzy> not the receiveer
2603 2013-04-26 20:46:18 <EvilPete> and the receiver has to pay to spend them
2604 2013-04-26 20:46:36 <nospinzy> no kidding man, the sender is spending more then he is sending, thats not what we are talking about
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2606 2013-04-26 20:46:53 <EvilPete> and the receiver is spending more than you're giving them for free
2607 2013-04-26 20:46:54 <nospinzy> the receiver pays a .005 on a .01 transaction
2608 2013-04-26 20:47:00 <nospinzy> its simple math
2609 2013-04-26 20:47:04 <EvilPete> no, reciever pays 0.05
2610 2013-04-26 20:47:07 <nospinzy> NO THEY ARE NOT\
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2613 2013-04-26 20:47:16 <nospinzy> do you understand math?
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2615 2013-04-26 20:48:30 <EvilPete> How do you get 0.005? each of those separate 0.00001 inputs requires a slot in the tx
2616 2013-04-26 20:48:41 <EvilPete> it adds up
2617 2013-04-26 20:48:52 <nospinzy> its not each
2618 2013-04-26 20:48:56 <EvilPete> Yes, it is
2619 2013-04-26 20:48:59 <nospinzy> no its not
2620 2013-04-26 20:49:04 <nospinzy> iv done it before
2621 2013-04-26 20:49:16 <jgm> Short version: you can't lose money on each input in the transaction but make it up on the volume
2622 2013-04-26 20:49:21 <nospinzy> and it was said int he chat its .005 per so many kb's
2623 2013-04-26 20:49:32 <EvilPete> Nope, 0.0005 per kb
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2625 2013-04-26 20:50:05 <nospinzy> thats what i ment
2626 2013-04-26 20:50:07 [Author] has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
2627 2013-04-26 20:50:28 <nospinzy> anyways this isnt confirming :(
2628 2013-04-26 20:50:37 [Author] has joined
2629 2013-04-26 20:50:48 <nospinzy> how do you find the size in kb's
2630 2013-04-26 20:50:49 <EvilPete> nospinzy: all those 0.00001's dont merge. they're separate. it requires a separate input for each of them.
2631 2013-04-26 20:51:03 <nospinzy> im aware of that
2632 2013-04-26 20:51:13 <EvilPete> 4984 bytes for https://blockchain.info/tx/e63814caa117b161e34d10eea524eb3c7512600882466ab6c3ac872e390ca9a6
2633 2013-04-26 20:52:12 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2634 2013-04-26 20:52:15 <EvilPete> so it meets the 0.0001/kb for relaying but not 0.0005 for confirming
2635 2013-04-26 20:52:18 <nospinzy> where did you find that out
2636 2013-04-26 20:52:26 <EvilPete> look at the bottom of the page.
2637 2013-04-26 20:52:30 <nospinzy> o
2638 2013-04-26 20:52:57 <nospinzy> this is so dumb, so what happens if it timesout
2639 2013-04-26 20:53:28 <EvilPete> We did try to tell you...
2640 2013-04-26 20:53:46 <nospinzy> yea you tried to speculate
2641 2013-04-26 20:54:03 <EvilPete> 12:58 <gmaxwell> In any case, you've been given expert advice twice now and chosen to ignore it.
2642 2013-04-26 20:54:03 <EvilPete> Your warranty is void. Good luck, and I hope you don't mind being free market roadkill too
2643 2013-04-26 20:54:04 <EvilPete> much.
2644 2013-04-26 20:54:06 <nospinzy> i can specualte about global nuclear war aswell
2645 2013-04-26 20:54:25 <nospinzy> O NO i took at .26$ risk
2646 2013-04-26 20:54:28 <nospinzy> IM RUINED
2647 2013-04-26 20:54:29 <nospinzy> lol
2648 2013-04-26 20:54:47 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2649 2013-04-26 20:54:54 <EvilPete> 12:59 <sipa> nospinzy: many nonspendable coins together do not becomea spendable one
2650 2013-04-26 20:55:19 i2pRelay has joined
2651 2013-04-26 20:56:00 <nospinzy> nonspendable is sophistry, because addition exists. we alreayd went thru this
2652 2013-04-26 20:56:32 <nospinzy> and its been confirmed by me, because i fudned my first wallet with these so called nonspendable coins
2653 2013-04-26 20:56:49 <nospinzy> i guess the minners fee is nonspendable aswell?
2654 2013-04-26 20:56:59 <nospinzy> then why aquire the fee in the first place
2655 2013-04-26 20:59:48 brson has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2656 2013-04-26 21:00:47 <EvilPete> nospinzy: numbers for you:
2657 2013-04-26 21:00:50 <EvilPete> "Assuming all the inputs you are spending are from regular "pay to address" transactions, each input will contribute 180 (plus or minus 1) bytes to the transaction. Each output adds 34 bytes to the transaction. And there's a fixed extra 10 bytes which are always present"
2658 2013-04-26 21:01:23 <EvilPete> nospinzy: so I was generous.
2659 2013-04-26 21:01:41 bVector has joined
2660 2013-04-26 21:01:52 brson has joined
2661 2013-04-26 21:01:55 mollison has joined
2662 2013-04-26 21:02:37 <EvilPete> nospinzy: so there's no way to spend those 0.00001's without acquiring more btc to pay for the fees, no matter how many you get.
2663 2013-04-26 21:02:45 stalled has joined
2664 2013-04-26 21:02:48 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2665 2013-04-26 21:03:02 mollison has left ("ISON #bitcoin-market #bitcoin-otc #bitcoin-pit #awesome")
2666 2013-04-26 21:03:15 pjorrit_ has joined
2667 2013-04-26 21:03:20 i2pRelay has joined
2668 2013-04-26 21:03:27 <nospinzy> Once again the receiver is not paying the fee
2669 2013-04-26 21:03:53 <nospinzy> so we are not debating bitcoin market cap and how its canceling itself out
2670 2013-04-26 21:04:19 <nospinzy> give me your bitcoin address
2671 2013-04-26 21:04:24 <nospinzy> and ill send you .00001
2672 2013-04-26 21:04:46 <nospinzy> and it will add to your total spendable coins
2673 2013-04-26 21:04:56 <EvilPete> nospinzy: you're giving them coins to spend, no?
2674 2013-04-26 21:05:15 stalled_ has joined
2675 2013-04-26 21:05:27 <nospinzy> its not my problem if they spend them or not
2676 2013-04-26 21:05:51 <nospinzy> if i gave you a usd cent can you spend that on anything?
2677 2013-04-26 21:06:07 <nospinzy> if you collect 100 cents then yes you can spend them
2678 2013-04-26 21:06:27 stalled has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2679 2013-04-26 21:06:32 <tumak> (and pay 5-10% in fees in the process :)
2680 2013-04-26 21:06:36 <EvilPete> yeah, but if it costs 5 cents per 1 cent to spend, then they're "unspendable" without acquiring more
2681 2013-04-26 21:07:15 <nospinzy> tumak yea or i can send them a dollar and be out a whole hell of alot more money sending people bitcoins for doing things that generate small income
2682 2013-04-26 21:07:50 <tumak> well the nonspendable situation is super confusing for newbies
2683 2013-04-26 21:07:52 <nospinzy> im not sure how that plays into a proper buisness, only to satify someones theory
2684 2013-04-26 21:08:03 <EvilPete> if the purpose is to get people started... ie: they have no other bitcoins.. its not a good experience if they can't use them
2685 2013-04-26 21:08:09 <tumak> esp kids (12yo) who use those click sites and have no other way to exchange fiat
2686 2013-04-26 21:08:20 <nospinzy> thats my market
2687 2013-04-26 21:09:22 <nospinzy> if i give you a cent USD and i have to pay a transaction cost of 5 cents, what differnce does it make. im the one loosing out the 6 cents and you are gaining 1 cent. this is very hard for me to understand what you dont understand
2688 2013-04-26 21:09:42 <EvilPete> nospinzy: suppose a newbie acquires 1000 of those 0.00001 payments and wants to spend them.. their wallet will show a balance of 0.01 right?
2689 2013-04-26 21:09:58 <nospinzy> i am getting people started like i said this is what got me started, learning
2690 2013-04-26 21:10:09 <nospinzy> yes evilpete
2691 2013-04-26 21:10:10 <EvilPete> nospinzy: do you agree with that math?
2692 2013-04-26 21:10:18 <EvilPete> so.. to spend them requires
2693 2013-04-26 21:10:36 <nospinzy> .0005
2694 2013-04-26 21:10:38 <EvilPete> 188 bytes per 0.00001 x 1000 = 188kb transaction
2695 2013-04-26 21:10:45 <nospinzy> what?
2696 2013-04-26 21:10:46 <tumak> uh
2697 2013-04-26 21:10:49 <tumak> i think its less than 100
2698 2013-04-26 21:10:52 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2699 2013-04-26 21:11:03 <EvilPete> "Assuming all the inputs you are spending are from regular "pay to address" transactions, each input will contribute 180 (plus or minus 1) bytes to the transaction. Each output adds 34 bytes to the transaction. And there's a fixed extra 10 bytes which are always present."
2700 2013-04-26 21:11:22 i2pRelay has joined
2701 2013-04-26 21:12:20 <tumak> sounds about right
2702 2013-04-26 21:12:22 <tumak> so basically
2703 2013-04-26 21:12:25 <tumak> its scam on kids
2704 2013-04-26 21:13:02 bibbybob has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2705 2013-04-26 21:13:06 <EvilPete> yeah, that 188k transaction to spend the 1000 x 0.00001's means it costs 0.094 in fees to spend 0.01
2706 2013-04-26 21:13:09 <nospinzy> so the more a coin is spent the more data it carries?
2707 2013-04-26 21:13:17 Prattler has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
2708 2013-04-26 21:13:27 <gmaxwell> The more _distinct coins_ you are spending the more data.
2709 2013-04-26 21:13:33 <nospinzy> thats a flaw in bitcoin itself, i dnt know what you want me to do about it
2710 2013-04-26 21:13:35 ColinT has joined
2711 2013-04-26 21:13:55 <tumak> think of it as hard drive fragmentation
2712 2013-04-26 21:14:07 <nospinzy> with that login you wont be able to send 1 bitcoin because the data it carries from previous transaction will be so large
2713 2013-04-26 21:14:10 <tumak> s/hard drive/filesystem/ :)
2714 2013-04-26 21:14:15 <gmaxwell> If you make 0.01 payment to the person then they can spend that with 190 bytes. If you make 0.00001 payments then they need 180 bytes _per_ 0.00001.
2715 2013-04-26 21:14:18 <EvilPete> its not like a bank account where a balance gets 1 cent added to it. Its more like a wallet.. there's another coin jammed into the coin pocket.
2716 2013-04-26 21:15:03 <nospinzy> so people are going to start to not want coins that are used
2717 2013-04-26 21:15:08 <nospinzy> total flaw in the system
2718 2013-04-26 21:15:10 <gmaxwell> ... NO
2719 2013-04-26 21:15:12 <gmaxwell> fuck!
2720 2013-04-26 21:15:12 <gmaxwell> due
2721 2013-04-26 21:15:15 <gmaxwell> er dude
2722 2013-04-26 21:15:16 <EvilPete> bitcoin-qt only shows you the balance by adding up all the unspent outputs. Addresses don't have balances
2723 2013-04-26 21:15:25 <Luke-Jr> wow, how'd you get gmaxwell that upset? :o
2724 2013-04-26 21:15:36 <gmaxwell> nospinzy: is has JACK SHIT TO DO WITH "USED"
2725 2013-04-26 21:15:47 <nospinzy> USED meaning coins that are transacted alot
2726 2013-04-26 21:15:51 <EvilPete> nospinzy: its nothing to do with used. It is number of transactions.
2727 2013-04-26 21:15:53 <nospinzy> those transacted alot carry weight
2728 2013-04-26 21:15:58 <nospinzy> in data
2729 2013-04-26 21:16:00 <EvilPete> no they dont
2730 2013-04-26 21:16:03 <EvilPete> NO NO NO
2731 2013-04-26 21:16:04 <gmaxwell> No, that isn't how it works.
2732 2013-04-26 21:16:06 <nospinzy> then wtf are you talking about
2733 2013-04-26 21:16:13 <tumak> fragmentation
2734 2013-04-26 21:16:16 <EvilPete> each payment is separate. they're not merged.
2735 2013-04-26 21:16:25 <nospinzy> thats bullshit
2736 2013-04-26 21:16:26 <EvilPete> spending 10 payments takes 10 times as much data
2737 2013-04-26 21:16:26 <Luke-Jr> nospinzy: if you pay a $100 bill in pennies, that uses a lot of data
2738 2013-04-26 21:16:35 <gmaxwell> Transaction both split and merge coins. All coins take roughtly the same amount of data to spend.
2739 2013-04-26 21:16:52 <EvilPete> there is no "balance" in the bitcoin system. its just a convenience that your wallet offers you
2740 2013-04-26 21:16:54 <Luke-Jr> nospinzy: but the guy you paid has a clean $100 bill, he doesn't get your pennies
2741 2013-04-26 21:17:00 Prattler has joined
2742 2013-04-26 21:17:10 <tumak> nospinzy: and youre merging coins which are splitted in your wallet
2743 2013-04-26 21:17:20 <tumak> because thats how "defragmentation" works in bitcoin
2744 2013-04-26 21:17:31 <tumak> whenever split or merge happens, it enlarges the tx
2745 2013-04-26 21:17:31 <EvilPete> nospinzy: you can merge coins by spending them.. they dont get merged when you receive them
2746 2013-04-26 21:17:36 <tumak> gosh, those are really layman terms
2747 2013-04-26 21:17:54 <nospinzy> nospinzy: you can merge coins by spending them
2748 2013-04-26 21:18:02 <tumak> yup
2749 2013-04-26 21:18:08 <nospinzy> so the receiver is now the spender
2750 2013-04-26 21:18:10 <tumak> and that operation, split or merge
2751 2013-04-26 21:18:13 <tumak> must be paid for
2752 2013-04-26 21:18:29 <EvilPete> You could take 1000 x 0.00001 and pay 0.09 in fees to spend 0.01, and the resulting 0.01 would be spendable. But you burn coins to do it.
2753 2013-04-26 21:18:34 <tumak> nospinzy: no, sender always pays the fee and does the splitting or merging
2754 2013-04-26 21:18:36 <gmaxwell> nospinzy: except he can't because you've paid him in such tiny bits of dust that the merging txn would have to pay very high fees, if it were permitted at all.
2755 2013-04-26 21:18:49 ColinT has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2756 2013-04-26 21:18:52 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2757 2013-04-26 21:18:59 <gmaxwell> tumak: his transactions reciever is then the next spender.
2758 2013-04-26 21:19:18 <tumak> gmaxwell: who receive the coins merged :)
2759 2013-04-26 21:19:25 i2pRelay has joined
2760 2013-04-26 21:19:28 orbliviator has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2761 2013-04-26 21:19:33 <tumak> anyways
2762 2013-04-26 21:19:38 <gmaxwell> tumak: whoever the reciever sends them to next.
2763 2013-04-26 21:19:39 <tumak> what about 100x0.00001
2764 2013-04-26 21:19:41 <EvilPete> nospinzy: the bottom line is the deployed bitcoin network's fee structure is unsuited to what you want to do.
2765 2013-04-26 21:19:48 <tumak> thats 18kb
2766 2013-04-26 21:19:54 <tumak> not that harsh on network
2767 2013-04-26 21:19:59 <gmaxwell> tumak: and below 0.01 so you must provide a 0.0005 fee.
2768 2013-04-26 21:20:10 <tumak> ie 0.001 for 0.0005 fee?
2769 2013-04-26 21:20:13 <tumak> not likely for 18kb tx
2770 2013-04-26 21:20:16 <jgm> You go to the bank with your big bag of pennies and the teller looks at you and says "Sure I'll change them. It'll cost you 3 cents per penny to change it up because anything less isn't worth my time."
2771 2013-04-26 21:20:18 <tumak> how much fee for 18kb tx?
2772 2013-04-26 21:20:18 <tumak> :)
2773 2013-04-26 21:20:25 has quit (Clown|!Clown@unaffiliated/clown/x-0272709|Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2774 2013-04-26 21:20:29 <gmaxwell> tumak: actually, sorry 18*0.0005
2775 2013-04-26 21:20:31 <nospinzy> o yea i got a confirmation
2776 2013-04-26 21:20:32 <nospinzy> https://blockchain.info/tx/e63814caa117b161e34d10eea524eb3c7512600882466ab6c3ac872e390ca9a6
2777 2013-04-26 21:20:34 <nospinzy> :)
2778 2013-04-26 21:20:48 <tumak> gmaxwell: ah, the scaling is linear :(
2779 2013-04-26 21:21:17 <gmaxwell> tumak: yep. Sure, if it's not linear a dos attacker would just choose the most efficient size to attack with.
2780 2013-04-26 21:21:24 <tumak> gmaxwell: well, lets hypothetize tx fees are related to dust (destroying dust is subsidized, creating dust is taxed)
2781 2013-04-26 21:21:28 has joined
2782 2013-04-26 21:21:28 has quit (Clown|!~clown@static-87-79-93-140.netcologne.de|Changing host)
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2784 2013-04-26 21:21:38 <Luke-Jr> !
2785 2013-04-26 21:21:47 Prattler has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
2786 2013-04-26 21:21:53 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2787 2013-04-26 21:21:55 <Luke-Jr> anyone check if the make-dust-nonstandard prevents spending dust (due to non-standard input)?
2788 2013-04-26 21:22:08 orblivion has joined
2789 2013-04-26 21:22:10 <gmaxwell> tumak: thats not, unfortunately, how the system is incentivized.
2790 2013-04-26 21:22:19 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: huh? that code should only be checking the outputs.
2791 2013-04-26 21:22:19 <tumak> gmaxwell: i know
2792 2013-04-26 21:22:24 <tumak> but one can dream
2793 2013-04-26 21:22:31 <tumak> of course the size matters, but utxo probably as well
2794 2013-04-26 21:22:36 <tumak> *utxo space
2795 2013-04-26 21:22:38 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: transactions are now tested that their inputs are standard as well..
2796 2013-04-26 21:22:45 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: did you restart pull-tester?
2797 2013-04-26 21:23:30 <nospinzy> look at this transaction https://blockchain.info/tx/1d754d728edced1d51c04addc03d79e0a7f9b90447a18659119c9de24f102edf
2798 2013-04-26 21:23:45 <nospinzy> 68261 (bytes)
2799 2013-04-26 21:23:52 <nospinzy> 0.0069 BTC Fee
2800 2013-04-26 21:23:56 <nospinzy> 1420 Confirmations
2801 2013-04-26 21:24:03 <tumak> neat
2802 2013-04-26 21:24:11 <nospinzy> thanks for wasting my money :)
2803 2013-04-26 21:24:12 <tumak> so there are cool miners after all
2804 2013-04-26 21:24:13 Prattler has joined
2805 2013-04-26 21:24:22 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: uh. I didn't think those particular checks got that... but if not that needs to be fixed.
2806 2013-04-26 21:25:10 stalled_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2807 2013-04-26 21:25:15 <tumak> nospinzy: btw, if youre the click-site operator, why not just keep balance and send it out when it reaches certain threshold?
2808 2013-04-26 21:25:26 <nospinzy> i did
2809 2013-04-26 21:25:31 <tumak> nospinzy: you're losing ton on txfees, i think kids would appreciate double payoff
2810 2013-04-26 21:25:44 <nospinzy> people are paranoid
2811 2013-04-26 21:25:54 <nospinzy> if they dont get a quick payment they start yelling scam
2812 2013-04-26 21:25:59 <tumak> nospinzy: no, i mean give them login/password or something
2813 2013-04-26 21:26:03 <tumak> and let them choose
2814 2013-04-26 21:26:06 <tumak> if they want to get paid now
2815 2013-04-26 21:26:09 <tumak> but lose 50% in txfees
2816 2013-04-26 21:26:17 <tumak> or wait, and gain whatever is saved in txfees
2817 2013-04-26 21:26:19 <nospinzy> i dont have the time to mess with that
2818 2013-04-26 21:26:24 <tumak> hahaha
2819 2013-04-26 21:26:27 <nospinzy> lol
2820 2013-04-26 21:26:44 <nospinzy> bitcoinforest.com
2821 2013-04-26 21:26:46 <nospinzy> thats what it is
2822 2013-04-26 21:26:49 <tumak> i know
2823 2013-04-26 21:26:53 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2824 2013-04-26 21:26:54 <tumak> i think i even got some of your dust
2825 2013-04-26 21:26:55 <nospinzy> o
2826 2013-04-26 21:26:59 chorao has quit ()
2827 2013-04-26 21:26:59 <nospinzy> :)
2828 2013-04-26 21:27:11 <nospinzy> o yea we were talking about this in a pm the other day?
2829 2013-04-26 21:27:24 i2pRelay has joined
2830 2013-04-26 21:27:40 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2831 2013-04-26 21:28:22 <EvilPete> nospinzy: "Click a link below and enter email .00005 Botcoins" what's a botcoin? :)
2832 2013-04-26 21:28:23 <tumak> does anybody have rough idea how much % of utxo space (as in utxo count) is occupied by dust?
2833 2013-04-26 21:28:51 <nospinzy> evilpete changing that now hehe for some reaon i type botcoin alot
2834 2013-04-26 21:29:42 saulimus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2835 2013-04-26 21:30:08 <nospinzy> that captcha is supposed to be an ad, but they are screwing me over today and yesterday
2836 2013-04-26 21:30:31 <nospinzy> i have to find a better one, because these guys are pretty picky with content for some reason
2837 2013-04-26 21:30:38 <nospinzy> pretty picky for a small buisness if you ask me
2838 2013-04-26 21:31:00 orblivion has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2839 2013-04-26 21:31:08 <EvilPete> The captcha is to see if you're scamming them with robo-clicking
2840 2013-04-26 21:31:19 <nospinzy> its there to make me money also
2841 2013-04-26 21:31:52 <nospinzy> i found this cool one where you play a little game to complete the captcha, but i dont know how good the reveue is
2842 2013-04-26 21:31:56 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2843 2013-04-26 21:32:08 <nospinzy> http://areyouahuman.com/ they dont tell you
2844 2013-04-26 21:32:39 mortikia has joined
2845 2013-04-26 21:32:59 i2pRelay has joined
2846 2013-04-26 21:33:57 <nospinzy> if you have idea how to convert action into revenue please let me know
2847 2013-04-26 21:34:49 i2pRelay has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2848 2013-04-26 21:35:29 ThomasV has joined
2849 2013-04-26 21:35:50 wizkid057 has quit (Quit: reboot brb)
2850 2013-04-26 21:36:05 whiterabbit has joined
2851 2013-04-26 21:36:13 <tumak> nospinzy: what about outright decaptcha? :)
2852 2013-04-26 21:36:20 <tumak> since youre in shady bussiness anyway so what
2853 2013-04-26 21:36:22 wrabbit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2854 2013-04-26 21:36:26 whiterabbit is now known as wrabbit
2855 2013-04-26 21:36:42 <nospinzy> hrmm
2856 2013-04-26 21:36:49 <nospinzy> ill look into it, lol
2857 2013-04-26 21:37:05 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
2858 2013-04-26 21:37:12 <jgm> tumak: just building up a database from the blockchain as I was wondering the same thing myself (UXTO info and dust)
2859 2013-04-26 21:37:19 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2860 2013-04-26 21:37:25 <tumak> jgm: neat!
2861 2013-04-26 21:40:46 <tumak> jgm: trying to run some ballparks on 'what if txfees were utxo pollution related' with current utxo set state
2862 2013-04-26 21:40:46 <tumak> but i'm afraid at least 50% consists of dust, maybe much more
2863 2013-04-26 21:40:46 nouitfvf_ has joined
2864 2013-04-26 21:40:46 <jgm> Once I have the info (might manage it today but more likely over the weekend) I'll be sure to let you knw
2865 2013-04-26 21:40:46 <tumak> nospinzy: the price is supposedly 1 usd / 1k decaptchas
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2870 2013-04-26 21:45:22 wumpus has quit (No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2871 2013-04-26 21:45:39 wump has joined
2872 2013-04-26 21:45:40 <bwen> Plornt: only found https://github.com/znort987/blockparser so far
2873 2013-04-26 21:45:49 wumpus has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2874 2013-04-26 21:45:53 <Plornt> thanks for the link Ill have a look now
2875 2013-04-26 21:46:00 <jgm> bwen: are you running an up-to-date bitcoind and is it synced?
2876 2013-04-26 21:46:27 <bwen> hmm actualy I just noticed its not running... hold on
2877 2013-04-26 21:47:27 <jgarzik> Plornt: The "blkscan" util in the source directory at https://github.com/jgarzik/picocoin/tree/blkscan
2878 2013-04-26 21:47:32 alaricsp has joined
2879 2013-04-26 21:47:38 <jgarzik> I need to merge that into the master branch of picocoin
2880 2013-04-26 21:48:23 <jgarzik> blkscan scans through a multi-gigabyte blockchain file, looking for payments received. But it is easy to query other things.
2881 2013-04-26 21:48:37 <jgarzik> Just over 2 minutes to scan the 6+GB blockchain here, using blkscan
2882 2013-04-26 21:48:43 stalled has joined
2883 2013-04-26 21:48:58 Scrat has joined
2884 2013-04-26 21:49:01 nsillik has joined
2885 2013-04-26 21:49:06 <bwen> jgm: yeah it was running actualy. killed it restarted it. its up to date and its version 0.8.1.0. still core dumps :(
2886 2013-04-26 21:49:17 <Plornt> ah thank you#
2887 2013-04-26 21:50:29 hnz has joined
2888 2013-04-26 21:50:36 ColinT has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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2891 2013-04-26 21:52:04 <jgm> Okay so next you should check permissions on that file, ensure that you have access to it (and that it exists). Strange that it said it couldn't open it
2892 2013-04-26 21:54:25 <bwen> jgm: I have to mention its a symlink :P
2893 2013-04-26 21:54:49 <jgm> To the actual .dat file?
2894 2013-04-26 21:55:00 <bwen> whole .bitcoin folder
2895 2013-04-26 21:55:03 <bwen> jgm: I tried finding a way to specify the absolute path but didnt find anything
2896 2013-04-26 21:55:20 taha has joined
2897 2013-04-26 21:55:43 <jgm> I'd think it wouldn't matter so much if the whole folder was a symlink, perhaps strace it and see what the error is when attempting to open the file
2898 2013-04-26 21:57:08 peddamat has joined
2899 2013-04-26 21:57:52 holorga has joined
2900 2013-04-26 21:58:17 <bwen> http://pastebin.com/egWjMc1v
2901 2013-04-26 21:59:13 <bwen> imma try and free some space to remove the symlink... I dont know what else it could be. doesnt seem to be permissions
2902 2013-04-26 21:59:33 orblivion has joined
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2905 2013-04-26 22:00:26 <jgm> Are you on a funky filesystem that doesn't like O_DIRECT?
2906 2013-04-26 22:00:29 wizkid057 has joined
2907 2013-04-26 22:01:22 fishfish has joined
2908 2013-04-26 22:01:23 <bwen> hmm maybe
2909 2013-04-26 22:01:46 <bwen> now I wonder why that disk it not ext3... the hell is fuseblk? O.o
2910 2013-04-26 22:01:53 <jgm> Aha
2911 2013-04-26 22:02:07 <jgm> Doubt you're allowed to O_DIRECT through FUSE
2912 2013-04-26 22:02:51 rowit has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2913 2013-04-26 22:02:53 <bwen> ty i'll free up some space and move it back on the SSD... shouldnt of given windows that much >_<
2914 2013-04-26 22:03:39 orblivion has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2915 2013-04-26 22:03:46 <bwen> damn it... I should get a bigger SSD :P
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2919 2013-04-26 22:06:22 <fishfish> hi guys, quick q: using bitcoind on osx built from source, when sending a trx to a 3rd party i pay 0 trx fee by default. But when sending to an address within the wallet, i pay 0.0005. I haven't touched settxfee. What gives?
2920 2013-04-26 22:07:15 <fishfish> that's on the testnet btw
2921 2013-04-26 22:10:16 <HM2> https://www.pay-touch.com/en/home <--this scares the shit out of me
2922 2013-04-26 22:10:28 <HM2> i happen to leave my fingerprints everywhere
2923 2013-04-26 22:10:55 Blackreign has joined
2924 2013-04-26 22:11:19 <bwen> HM2: wasnt the President of paypal talking of something similar
2925 2013-04-26 22:11:40 <HM2> it's ludicrous
2926 2013-04-26 22:12:09 <HM2> The way I see it, biometrics are keys you cannot change, once they're out of the bag you're boned
2927 2013-04-26 22:12:49 <bwen> "out of the bag" ? once you get your prints taken ?
2928 2013-04-26 22:13:08 <HM2> Sure, why not?
2929 2013-04-26 22:13:35 <HM2> Lifting prints is cheap and easy. Unless they're mapping the veins in your skin or something under un/infrared(?)
2930 2013-04-26 22:13:58 <HM2> but whatever they're using, you can't challenge someones finger like you can challenge a chip on a smart card
2931 2013-04-26 22:13:59 o3u has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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2942 2013-04-26 22:18:04 <EvilPete> fishfish: what are the coin ages? does this https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees make any sense relative to what you saw?
2943 2013-04-26 22:18:23 systemParanoid has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2944 2013-04-26 22:19:01 <fishfish> EvilPete: indeed. Cheers! looks like it's related to the age
2945 2013-04-26 22:20:15 Scrat has joined
2946 2013-04-26 22:20:16 <EvilPete> HM2: we use a handprint scanner at work for data center access. turned out it was an optical digital camera.. one guy was able to make it work with a colour photo of his hand..
2947 2013-04-26 22:20:24 <EvilPete> s/use/used/
2948 2013-04-26 22:21:03 <EvilPete> HM2: needless to say, we tore them out. I wouldn't trust that fingerprint pay scanner either.
2949 2013-04-26 22:21:16 <HM2> yep, and facial unlocking can often be tricked the same way
2950 2013-04-26 22:22:17 <HM2> and if you can bypass the physical input and feed raw data in, they're all vulnerable to replay attack
2951 2013-04-26 22:23:36 <gmaxwell> the handscanners they use at the equinix data center will let you enroll your hand if you only put one finger in the scanner... this has the advantage of almost never rejecting you, so you never have to retry. It also doesn't reject other people...
2952 2013-04-26 22:23:36 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: rewrote block-tester to store blocks on disk so I can make the reorg infinite size, how big was your recommendation again?
2953 2013-04-26 22:23:47 <EvilPete> HM2: we ended up using one with a 3d laser scanner and switched it to be an additional factor rather than the only method
2954 2013-04-26 22:23:59 ColinT has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2955 2013-04-26 22:24:31 <EvilPete> gmaxwell: probably the same ones. I remember equinix using a different model of the ones we used.
2956 2013-04-26 22:24:35 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I think I was suggesting around 2k blocks. The idea being that we really want to support blocks on the order of 100 deep, and so testing 10-20x more than that is probably prudent.
2957 2013-04-26 22:25:01 <HM2> What's chip & pin adoption like in the US?
2958 2013-04-26 22:25:14 <EvilPete> gmaxwell: I remember the siteops guys going for a "high score".. trying to get the worst match possible that still let them in
2959 2013-04-26 22:25:21 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: ok, Ill see if it takes an hour to run and throw it in the tester :)
2960 2013-04-26 22:25:24 <EvilPete> HM2: zero
2961 2013-04-26 22:26:14 <HM2> there must be EMV adoption
2962 2013-04-26 22:26:16 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
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2964 2013-04-26 22:27:08 <HM2> I hate purchasing stuff from the US atm, whether it's web services or products
2965 2013-04-26 22:27:15 <HM2> My card is blocked immediately, it's a pain in the arse
2966 2013-04-26 22:27:43 <HM2> it's been that way since the UK moved to EMV/C&P a number of years ago
2967 2013-04-26 22:28:08 rowit has joined
2968 2013-04-26 22:28:32 <HM2> it's astounding to me that all the hip new payment methods seem to be getting *less* secure
2969 2013-04-26 22:29:09 Goonie_ has joined
2970 2013-04-26 22:29:10 <bwen> jgm: after moving the .bitcoin dir to a proper filesystem it worked no problem. Thx again :)
2971 2013-04-26 22:29:39 <EvilPete> HM2: the US seems to be going for contactless instead of chip/pin.. eg: http://www.mastercard.us/paypass.html
2972 2013-04-26 22:30:01 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2974 2013-04-26 22:30:53 min0r1 has joined
2975 2013-04-26 22:32:17 <min0r1> is anyone concerned that the number of mining entities will decrease from 10,000's (gpu days) to less then a handful of ASIC manufacturers?
2976 2013-04-26 22:32:28 <jgm> bwen: glad you worked it out
2977 2013-04-26 22:33:16 <min0r1> decentralization of mining is important for network security, is it not? would devs consider changing the hash function if it were discovered that a large entity spent $2 million to control > 50% of the network? its trivial for a government entity to do this.
2978 2013-04-26 22:33:41 <min0r1> im sure this has been discussed, but wondering what the consensus is?
2979 2013-04-26 22:33:42 X-Scale has joined
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2981 2013-04-26 22:35:42 MAN0liYOU has joined
2982 2013-04-26 22:36:06 MAN0liYOU is now known as Guest32535
2983 2013-04-26 22:36:34 <helo> min0r1: something could be done to break asics. if everyone thought it was a good idea, it would probably work.
2984 2013-04-26 22:36:55 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2985 2013-04-26 22:36:59 <gavinandresen> min0r1 : why do you think it would cost only $2million to control > 50% of the network? (just asking, I haven't done the back-of-the-envelope calculations for how much it would cost)
2986 2013-04-26 22:37:39 <gavinandresen> min0r1: also, see: http://gavintech.blogspot.com/2012/05/neutralizing-51-attack.html
2987 2013-04-26 22:37:47 Guest9953 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2988 2013-04-26 22:38:02 <jgm> Is there a current (or proposed) numerical value for dust?
2989 2013-04-26 22:38:35 <gavinandresen> jgm: yes, 5400 satoshis
2990 2013-04-26 22:38:44 <jgm> Ta
2991 2013-04-26 22:39:17 <gavinandresen> (by default, see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2577 )
2992 2013-04-26 22:39:24 <HM2> EvilPete: yeah that's getting somewhat popular here too. I just fired up Paypasses app and there are a dozen or so locations in my town. All restaurants and hotels
2993 2013-04-26 22:39:51 Guest32535 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2994 2013-04-26 22:40:08 Guest32535 has joined
2995 2013-04-26 22:40:26 <Goonie_> fyi: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=188671.msg1955234
2996 2013-04-26 22:40:28 <Goonie_> It's about wallet-stealing clones of MultiBit and (potentially) Bitcoin Wallet.
2997 2013-04-26 22:40:38 one_zero has joined
2998 2013-04-26 22:40:38 <gmaxwell> < min0r1> is anyone concerned that the number of mining entities will decrease from 10,000's (gpu days) to less then a handful of ASIC manufacturers? < you sound confusedâ the known asic makers are all selling product to the public.
2999 2013-04-26 22:41:43 <min0r1> interesting mitigation to the 51% attack. it was my understanding a miner can include 0 transactions if they find a block....
3000 2013-04-26 22:42:09 <gmaxwell> well, 0 non coinbase transactions at least.
3001 2013-04-26 22:42:24 <nsh> gmaxwell, do you not expect the total number of mining parties to decrease after the difficulty adjustments brought about by ASIC prevalence?
3002 2013-04-26 22:42:28 <sipa> Goonie_: hi
3003 2013-04-26 22:42:50 <HM2> gmaxwell: why is that allowed? don't such transactions do nothing to further the network?
3004 2013-04-26 22:43:13 <sipa> Goonie_: i was wondering about your key dump file format
3005 2013-04-26 22:43:28 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: Im assuming pull-tester is working (I saw that it was restarted)
3006 2013-04-26 22:43:38 ThomasV has joined
3007 2013-04-26 22:43:43 <gmaxwell> nsh: in the short term, perhaps a bitâ in the long term, harder to say. A lot of people decided that asics were a time to get into mining... and the asics should remove competition from botnets.
3008 2013-04-26 22:44:15 <gmaxwell> HM2: because you can't usefully deny it, and those block still do further the interest of the network, as they add difficulty to a reorg attack.
3009 2013-04-26 22:46:17 <Goonie_> sipa: yes
3010 2013-04-26 22:46:27 <Goonie_> sipa: still wondering? (-:
3011 2013-04-26 22:46:33 richcollins has joined
3012 2013-04-26 22:46:50 <min0r1> gmaxwell: napkin math tells me a 1Gh/sec chip on a <50nm process would cost around 2-3 million for the film , chips would be $3 each... 50Thash = $150,000 ... pretty cheap for an attacker considering the market cap is $1.5 billion
3013 2013-04-26 22:47:07 <min0r1> but if they're forced to include real transactions in the blocks, then i guess who cares ;)
3014 2013-04-26 22:47:43 <sipa> Goonie_: i've thinking of having a "key interchange" format for a while, as that's a lot easier than getting actual wallets be compatible
3015 2013-04-26 22:47:46 <HM2> and as soon as it was made apparent the market cap wouldn't be $1.5bn :P
3016 2013-04-26 22:47:57 <sipa> Goonie_: and since you already have one, it'd be nice to be compatible
3017 2013-04-26 22:48:19 mE\Ta has joined
3018 2013-04-26 22:48:26 <Goonie_> sipa: indeed it would be nice. However, moving keys around is bad to begin with...
3019 2013-04-26 22:48:48 <sipa> Goonie_: agree, but people will do it anywhere
3020 2013-04-26 22:48:51 <Goonie_> sipa: The only supported usecase currently is backups (and restores)
3021 2013-04-26 22:48:56 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3022 2013-04-26 22:49:10 <sipa> Goonie_: and i much more prefer people moving wallets around than people moving keys around
3023 2013-04-26 22:49:16 <gmaxwell> min0r1: who says 50TH matters?
3024 2013-04-26 22:49:36 <gmaxwell> min0r1: and no one can be "forced to include real transactions in the blocks"
3025 2013-04-26 22:49:40 <min0r1> ok, even 500Th = 1.5 million
3026 2013-04-26 22:49:55 <Goonie_> sipa: Agreed.
3027 2013-04-26 22:49:57 <min0r1> gmaxwell: i was referring to http://gavintech.blogspot.ca/2012/05/neutralizing-51-attack.html
3028 2013-04-26 22:50:06 denisx has joined
3029 2013-04-26 22:50:06 qeb has joined
3030 2013-04-26 22:50:13 <sipa> Goonie_: is there any document describing it?
3031 2013-04-26 22:50:18 <sipa> or a link to the source
3032 2013-04-26 22:50:30 <Goonie_> sipa: one moment I'll look it up for you
3033 2013-04-26 22:51:07 <gmaxwell> min0r1: who says 500TH is interesting? Right now I would project a difficulty of 500 million eventually assuming the exchange rate holds.
3034 2013-04-26 22:52:20 ielo has joined
3035 2013-04-26 22:53:18 <Goonie_> sipa: it was discussed on the bitcoinj mailing list (thread: Requesting feedback on format...) and the final result is in https://github.com/jim618/multibit/wiki/Export-and-limited-import-of-private-keys
3036 2013-04-26 22:53:22 <gmaxwell> (it takes approximately a diff of 1.1 million to make avalons at $0.3/kwh power and $150 exchange rates merely break even vs power costs)
3037 2013-04-26 22:53:59 <gmaxwell> min0r1: this is pretty far afield of development though, if you want to talk more about it I'm in #bitcoin too.
3038 2013-04-26 22:54:04 <HM2> $0.3/kwh seems expensive.
3039 2013-04-26 22:54:37 <gmaxwell> HM2: it's what I pay. It only strenghtens my point there if you assume less.
3040 2013-04-26 22:54:39 <sipa> Goonie_: indeed super-easy
3041 2013-04-26 22:54:48 <Goonie_> sipa: The encryption code is here http://code.google.com/p/bitcoin-wallet/source/browse/wallet/src/de/schildbach/wallet/util/EncryptionUtils.java
3042 2013-04-26 22:54:59 <sipa> Goonie_: is there any ability to have "optional" fields?
3043 2013-04-26 22:55:28 <min0r1> gmaxwell: sure... my main question was already answered re: mitigating 51% attack... i still think its an interesting thought experiment for devs to keep in mind the instantaneous cost of controlling 50% of hashrate, which right now is less then 1% of the market cap
3044 2013-04-26 22:55:32 <gmaxwell> private static final int NUMBER_OF_ITERATIONS = 1024;
3045 2013-04-26 22:55:35 <gmaxwell> ?! :(
3046 2013-04-26 22:55:47 <HM2> gmaxwell: you're assuming that people will invest until profit margins are reduced right? doesn't that factor out the possibility that people will be more cautious given volatility?
3047 2013-04-26 22:55:49 <Goonie_> sipa: and the text format is implemented in http://code.google.com/p/bitcoin-wallet/source/browse/wallet/src/de/schildbach/wallet/util/WalletUtils.java (methods readKeys and writeKeys)
3048 2013-04-26 22:56:26 <min0r1> gmaxwell: and i agree that mining factor will eventually normalize to the cost of electricity + hardware.
3049 2013-04-26 22:56:37 <gmaxwell> HM2: you're not in #bitcoin
3050 2013-04-26 22:56:43 <Goonie_> sipa: My code ignores more than 2 fields, so you could add more fields and be compatible. Don't know about Jim though.
3051 2013-04-26 22:56:46 <HM2> I am now sir
3052 2013-04-26 22:56:47 <HM2> :P
3053 2013-04-26 22:57:47 <sipa> Goonie_: at some point, bip32 things, but right now, just a label for the key would be nice (i'm not convinced labels actually belong in there, but it would need a way to distinguish unused keypool keys, and actually used ones)
3054 2013-04-26 22:57:53 nizeguy has joined
3055 2013-04-26 22:58:54 <Goonie_> sipa: I feel we need to really test the compressed/uncompressed key cases. The was one issue reported on MultiBit from a user who somehow imported his own key, and bitcoinj/MultiBit derived a "wrong" address from it and somehow it was related to the compressed nature of keys.
3056 2013-04-26 22:59:08 <fishfish> hi guys, I hope this isn't a stupid question. On the testnet I've backedup my wallet. I then created a new address, and sent that address 10% of the content of the wallet. Stopped the server, replaced the new wallet dat with the new one, run getbalance and ... i can still see the balance. how is that possible?
3057 2013-04-26 22:59:20 Sealy has joined
3058 2013-04-26 23:00:01 <Goonie_> sipa: labels you could maybe put as a comment. I played with that idea some weeks ago.
3059 2013-04-26 23:00:34 Michail1_ is now known as Michail1
3060 2013-04-26 23:00:46 <sipa> Goonie_: i'd be inclined to suggest that after the second argument, any more data in the format key=value can follow
3061 2013-04-26 23:01:40 <sipa> but i don't want to go spoil the nice simple design you have
3062 2013-04-26 23:01:52 poggy has joined
3063 2013-04-26 23:02:40 <Goonie_> sipa: Well we could make it a BIP and then all clients have a vote.
3064 2013-04-26 23:03:08 <Goonie_> sipa: I wonder anyway how good the current format will play with HD wallets
3065 2013-04-26 23:03:19 <HM2> hmm
3066 2013-04-26 23:03:20 owowo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3067 2013-04-26 23:03:43 <Goonie_> sipa: maybe we need to make the format hierarchical as well (XML? :-)
3068 2013-04-26 23:03:49 <sipa> Goonie_: please don't
3069 2013-04-26 23:04:01 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3070 2013-04-26 23:04:07 <Goonie_> sipa: I would not dare... (-:
3071 2013-04-26 23:04:12 MobGod has joined
3072 2013-04-26 23:04:41 <sipa> Goonie_: as i see it, bip32 data will just be some extra data associated with each key (chaincode, and how the node is used [chain, account, wallet, ...])
3073 2013-04-26 23:04:52 <sipa> Goonie_: though bip32 itself specifies a serialization format too
3074 2013-04-26 23:05:32 <sipa> so perhaps it's just easier to instead of having base58 encoded secret keys in your format, have base58 encoded extended secret keys
3075 2013-04-26 23:06:15 <Goonie_> can extended secret keys be distinguished from the plain secret keys?
3076 2013-04-26 23:06:31 <sipa> yes
3077 2013-04-26 23:06:41 <sipa> they start with 'xprv' :)
3078 2013-04-26 23:07:59 <sipa> in base58
3079 2013-04-26 23:08:00 <Goonie_> In this case we could just define an alternative record for hd wallet keys
3080 2013-04-26 23:08:13 <sipa> yeah
3081 2013-04-26 23:08:43 stalled has joined
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3083 2013-04-26 23:08:53 <HM2> HMAC-SHA512(key="Bitcoin seed", msg=S) <-- seems an odd way around, not that it matters much
3084 2013-04-26 23:08:59 <Goonie_> I wouldn't worry too much about backwards compatibility - its just a matter of days to upgrade "all" bitcoin wallet users to a new version - don't know about multibit though.
3085 2013-04-26 23:09:16 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3086 2013-04-26 23:09:51 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3087 2013-04-26 23:09:56 <HM2> Oh i see why it's that way, you can precompute the inner hash of the HMAC
3088 2013-04-26 23:09:59 <Goonie_> sipa: does bitcoind/-qt in all cases know a birth date of a key?
3089 2013-04-26 23:10:28 <sipa> Goonie_: not yet
3090 2013-04-26 23:10:52 <sipa> but there's an easy workaround: look at the first confirmed transaction crediting the address
3091 2013-04-26 23:11:17 <Goonie_> sipa: Yeah I do that for Bitcoin Wallet as well but I need to query blockexplorer for that
3092 2013-04-26 23:11:29 <sipa> :o
3093 2013-04-26 23:12:15 owowo has joined
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3096 2013-04-26 23:14:58 <Goonie_> sipa: I was asking because if you don't add a second parameter (birth date) you can't add a third.
3097 2013-04-26 23:15:31 B0g4r7 has joined
3098 2013-04-26 23:15:39 <sipa> i don't see how you can't make an estimate
3099 2013-04-26 23:16:03 <sipa> you know how far you are synced in the chain, and you know transactions affecting that address before that point
3100 2013-04-26 23:16:15 <sipa> pick the earliest of the two
3101 2013-04-26 23:16:22 Plarkplark_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3102 2013-04-26 23:16:31 <sipa> and maybe decrease it by a few hours or even a day
3103 2013-04-26 23:16:45 <Goonie_> sipa: birth date is a time, not a height.
3104 2013-04-26 23:16:56 <sipa> sure, take the timestamp of the block
3105 2013-04-26 23:17:01 <gmaxwell> Goonie_: you query block explorer for user's addresses? 0_o
3106 2013-04-26 23:17:02 <sipa> minus 2 hours
3107 2013-04-26 23:17:08 <Goonie_> sipa: SPV == no blocks
3108 2013-04-26 23:17:14 <sipa> Goonie_: you have block headers, no?
3109 2013-04-26 23:17:21 <sipa> that's enough
3110 2013-04-26 23:17:23 <Goonie_> sipa: not any more
3111 2013-04-26 23:17:29 <sipa> ... wut?
3112 2013-04-26 23:17:47 <Goonie_> sipa: After they are validated, they are thrown away. Use up too much space.
3113 2013-04-26 23:18:03 min0r1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3114 2013-04-26 23:18:16 <gmaxwell> Goonie_: what if there is a reorg, do you resync the whole chain?
3115 2013-04-26 23:18:17 <sipa> ok sure, but then you can just store the timestamp of the first seen block affecting an address?
3116 2013-04-26 23:18:25 <Goonie_> gmaxwell: Only on user request. Its not done automatically.
3117 2013-04-26 23:18:25 <sipa> during sync
3118 2013-04-26 23:18:33 <gmaxwell> Goonie_: wut
3119 2013-04-26 23:18:47 <gmaxwell> Goonie_: you mean the client just fails one a day or so?
3120 2013-04-26 23:19:19 czaanja has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3121 2013-04-26 23:19:25 <sipa> Goonie_: i think 'only on user request' was an answer to querying blockchain
3122 2013-04-26 23:19:30 <Goonie_> a reorg cannot go more than I think 5000 blocks deep, that's the size of the header cache
3123 2013-04-26 23:19:30 <sipa> eh blockexplorer
3124 2013-04-26 23:20:11 <sipa> Goonie_: wait, at which point do you need to reconstruct a date for an address?
3125 2013-04-26 23:20:17 <Goonie_> yes, blockexplorer is only requested if the user picks "determine key creation date" from the conetxt menu of a key
3126 2013-04-26 23:20:21 <sipa> only when importing an old key, right?
3127 2013-04-26 23:20:38 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3128 2013-04-26 23:21:08 <Goonie_> sipa: Bitcoin Wallet can do without key creation dates. But it will disable checkpoints and fast catchup, so replay will take much more time.
3129 2013-04-26 23:21:09 <phantomcircuit> COOKIESSS
3130 2013-04-26 23:21:30 WKNiGHT has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3131 2013-04-26 23:21:51 <sipa> Goonie_: right, but any key either generated by yourself, or imported from a file that has creation date, retains the creation dat?
3132 2013-04-26 23:22:56 <Goonie_> yes, the key creation date is a field of the ECKey class and is serialized/deserialized and imported/exported
3133 2013-04-26 23:23:02 <sipa> ok, perfect
3134 2013-04-26 23:23:18 <sipa> so the only problem is really backward compatibility where you import a key that doesn't have a creation time
3135 2013-04-26 23:25:09 <Goonie_> I'm not sure what to reply. There is no problem because Bitcoin Wallet/bitcoinj can completely do without the date.
3136 2013-04-26 23:25:35 <Goonie_> If being slow is a problem, then the null date can stem from any source
3137 2013-04-26 23:25:41 <Goonie_> including just an old installation
3138 2013-04-26 23:26:03 Guest62079 has joined
3139 2013-04-26 23:26:08 <Goonie_> ok either old installation or import of a backup without date
3140 2013-04-26 23:26:13 <sipa> yeah
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3145 2013-04-26 23:30:30 <sipa> Goonie_: the difference, i guess, is that the 'old installation' problem is not an issue for bitcoin-qt, as you can just look at the oldest transaction in the wallet to find address ages
3146 2013-04-26 23:31:05 dino__ has joined
3147 2013-04-26 23:31:06 <sipa> importing without creation date is still slow, but that's the same as it is now
3148 2013-04-26 23:31:53 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
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3150 2013-04-26 23:32:42 <Goonie_> sipa: For some reason we decided this is unreliable. Maybe because transactions do not have a date. Its only artificial.
3151 2013-04-26 23:32:46 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
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3153 2013-04-26 23:33:28 <sipa> transactions know in which block they are, block headers have timestamps with a known maximum deviation
3154 2013-04-26 23:33:35 <sipa> (in bitcoin-qt)
3155 2013-04-26 23:33:52 <Goonie_> which leads back to the problem that SPV clients do not have blocks
3156 2013-04-26 23:34:04 <sipa> i don't see why you need blocks for that :)
3157 2013-04-26 23:34:08 <Goonie_> but yes, bitcoin-qt has got that luxury
3158 2013-04-26 23:34:10 <phantomcircuit> SPV clients should have the block headers
3159 2013-04-26 23:34:21 <phantomcircuit> it's a very small amount of data...
3160 2013-04-26 23:34:27 <phantomcircuit> ;;bc,blocks
3161 2013-04-26 23:34:28 <gribble> 233321
3162 2013-04-26 23:34:33 <phantomcircuit> ;;calc 233321 * 80
3163 2013-04-26 23:34:33 <gribble> 18665680
3164 2013-04-26 23:34:40 <sipa> well 18 MB is not nothing for phones
3165 2013-04-26 23:34:47 <phantomcircuit> sipa, srsly?
3166 2013-04-26 23:35:00 <sipa> it's not very much either, but it's not trivial
3167 2013-04-26 23:35:02 <phantomcircuit> i haven't had a phone in years that didn't have that much space
3168 2013-04-26 23:35:27 <Goonie_> getting 18665680 blocks from the network takes several hours. We don't want to go back to these dark ages of mobile wallets.
3169 2013-04-26 23:35:40 <phantomcircuit> that's bytes
3170 2013-04-26 23:35:43 <phantomcircuit> not blocks
3171 2013-04-26 23:35:54 <Goonie_> sorry quoted the wrong number
3172 2013-04-26 23:36:25 <phantomcircuit> and getting 233321 HEADERS should take minutes at most
3173 2013-04-26 23:36:53 <helo> storing 18mb is a piece of cake for any android phone you can buy (or get for ~free)
3174 2013-04-26 23:37:21 <helo> probably cake for any android phone ever made
3175 2013-04-26 23:37:38 <phantomcircuit> you'd be hard pressed to find a phone that can run an spv client but doesn't have 100's of MB of space
3176 2013-04-26 23:37:59 <sipa> Goonie_: anyway, i didn't want to get into this discussion... just saying that reliably inferring a safe lower bound for dates is easy in bitcoin-qt
3177 2013-04-26 23:38:02 <Goonie_> sipa: I think bitcoin-qt should complete all missing key creation dates
3178 2013-04-26 23:38:05 <jouke> as long as it is stored on the sd card
3179 2013-04-26 23:38:09 <sipa> Goonie_: agree
3180 2013-04-26 23:38:46 <Goonie_> helo: You obviously did not ever own an Android 2.3 device
3181 2013-04-26 23:39:02 * sipa had an Android 1.5
3182 2013-04-26 23:39:58 <Goonie_> sipa: so if you have creation dates for all keys, you can easily add fields to the format or use an alternative record for xprv keys.
3183 2013-04-26 23:40:28 <sipa> Goonie_: assuming multibit also ignores everything after the first 2 columns
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3186 2013-04-26 23:40:43 toffoo has joined
3187 2013-04-26 23:41:01 <Goonie_> sipa: ah yes, let me check that
3188 2013-04-26 23:42:27 JZavala has joined
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3191 2013-04-26 23:43:57 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
3192 2013-04-26 23:44:02 <HM2> hah
3193 2013-04-26 23:44:20 * HM2 had Android 1.1 or whatever came with the G1
3194 2013-04-26 23:44:54 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
3195 2013-04-26 23:45:06 <Goonie_> sipa: Looks like he is ignoring everything after 2 fields as well
3196 2013-04-26 23:46:01 <sipa> Goonie_: great
3197 2013-04-26 23:46:48 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3198 2013-04-26 23:47:04 <Goonie_> sipa: It appears Jim is a fan of you:
3199 2013-04-26 23:47:06 <Goonie_> sipaKey = scanner.next();
3200 2013-04-26 23:47:56 <HM2> lol
3201 2013-04-26 23:48:20 o3u has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3202 2013-04-26 23:48:57 taha has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3203 2013-04-26 23:49:08 <sipa> Goonie_: it's even funnier when people join this channel, say they have some string (which happens to be a private key WIF with compressed pubkey) and ask how to convert it to sipa format
3204 2013-04-26 23:49:26 <sipa> "because it has to start with a 5"
3205 2013-04-26 23:49:34 <Goonie_> (-:
3206 2013-04-26 23:54:21 <Goonie_> sipa: so is there anything more to discuss? I'd go to bed now.
3207 2013-04-26 23:54:44 <sipa> Goonie_: don't think so; goodnight!
3208 2013-04-26 23:54:49 <Goonie_> nite
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3211 2013-04-26 23:56:07 <JWU42> how to run a specific version within git history? Have a 0.8.0 that was HEAD at some point and it does fantasically well will connections and memory - want to use it on another node...
3212 2013-04-26 23:56:19 <JWU42> will = with
3213 2013-04-26 23:57:15 <sipa> 0.8.0 or head?
3214 2013-04-26 23:57:33 sanchaz has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3215 2013-04-26 23:57:47 <sipa> you can checkout a specific commit id
3216 2013-04-26 23:58:33 rushed has joined
3217 2013-04-26 23:58:55 <JWU42> forgot it was git describe
3218 2013-04-26 23:59:08 <JWU42> so with that I could checkout
3219 2013-04-26 23:59:15 canoon has joined