1 2013-04-28 00:00:23 <Steve132> So, I'm reading it, including the merkel tree thing
2 2013-04-28 00:00:38 <vazakl-> what we see now is that due to the frictions involved in mining and economies of scale, mining is concentrated in the hands of a few parties. a "51%" attack is really just about a handful of individuals who are the top of these mining conglomerates.
3 2013-04-28 00:00:56 <Steve132> Im not sure I get it completely...would anyone be kind enough to explain it a little clearer
4 2013-04-28 00:01:12 <vazakl-> even if a "fair mining group" arrives on the scene with good intentions, once they control significant compute power, the'll have the same oligopolist incentives that the other miners have. theres nothing inherently that prevents the formation of mining trusts
5 2013-04-28 00:01:41 <gmaxwell> what are you talking about "oligopolist incentives" ?!
6 2013-04-28 00:02:07 <gmaxwell> There is almost no scaling gain in miningâ in fact, there is arguably some negative scaling gain due to the ability to dispose of waste heat profitably.
7 2013-04-28 00:02:55 <gmaxwell> 16:29 < vazakl-> their discretion is fairly unlimited...
8 2013-04-28 00:03:08 <HM> if only mining consumed heat, then we could keep beer cold
9 2013-04-28 00:03:20 <HM> you win again physics
10 2013-04-28 00:03:29 * sipa donates HM a peltier element
11 2013-04-28 00:03:53 <vazakl-> firms have an incentive to collude to prevent competition from reducing their profits. the super-miners could easily sell their discretionary powers to governments for instance to embrago certain "bad" actors.
12 2013-04-28 00:04:14 <gmaxwell> This isn't trueâ miners control the order of transactionsâ including, potentially, a majority of them can perpetually delay transactions, and replace their own transactions. But thats the bounds of itâ they can't inflate supply, they can't steal third party coins, etc. It's pretty tightly confined.
13 2013-04-28 00:04:29 alex2 has joined
14 2013-04-28 00:04:29 <vazakl-> and of course there are economies of scale - not everyone can fab their own ASICs. it becomes substantially more profitable as you increase the number of units manufcatured
15 2013-04-28 00:04:33 <alex2> hey folks
16 2013-04-28 00:04:49 <alex2> vazakl soon fab labs might cost less
17 2013-04-28 00:04:56 <gmaxwell> vazakl-: as far as anyone knows, there is no party fabricating asics which isn't selling them to the public.
18 2013-04-28 00:05:19 <alex2> not yet
19 2013-04-28 00:05:47 <gmaxwell> The advantages of letting someone else take the operating costs and risk on investment are too great. Not to mention that the network would change POW to throw off a true consolidation like that if it were to happen.
20 2013-04-28 00:06:14 <alex2> :)
21 2013-04-28 00:06:24 <gmaxwell> alex2: As I listen to the soft wurr of the avalon box behind me, I can comfortably say that your "not yet" is incorrect. :)
22 2013-04-28 00:06:33 <alex2> :)
23 2013-04-28 00:06:51 bibbybob has quit (Quit: Leaving)
24 2013-04-28 00:06:57 <alex2> I meant some there might be firms producing asics in house
25 2013-04-28 00:06:59 <vazakl-> once bitcoin becomes a proven mainstream platform, no one's going to sell a machine that literally prints money for less than its expected value. so there will be no profit in buying one of those things
26 2013-04-28 00:07:00 <alex2> for mining
27 2013-04-28 00:07:26 <alex2> how are transaction fee working? if I set it to 0
28 2013-04-28 00:07:35 <vazakl-> youll have companies building their own hydroelectric dams just for bitcoining
29 2013-04-28 00:07:51 <alex2> I believe each miner initial recommended setting is at 0,001 right?
30 2013-04-28 00:07:56 <alex2> I mean client
31 2013-04-28 00:07:58 <gmaxwell> vazakl-: hah. the cost of the machine is basically irrelevant. Mining has a low equlibrium profitablity. Energy cost is whats interesting.
32 2013-04-28 00:08:19 <Steve132> with pooled mining, is there a way to verify that a member of the pool is actually doing the work?
33 2013-04-28 00:08:33 <gmaxwell> alex2: only the bitcoinj based clients do that, because they can't correctly calculate fees vs size they just overpay by default.
34 2013-04-28 00:09:07 <HM> why can't they calculate that?
35 2013-04-28 00:09:22 <alex2> gmaxwell: when someone compiles say bitcoind is there preset fee?
36 2013-04-28 00:09:36 <vazakl-> you dont see a lot of people running their own coal-fired electricity plants. a lot more than 51% of the nations energy supply is controlled by a handful of politicians/industrialists
37 2013-04-28 00:09:49 <gmaxwell> HM: they can, they just don't. Their coin selection is one-pass.
38 2013-04-28 00:10:27 <alex2> what is each miner selects diff settings?
39 2013-04-28 00:10:36 <alex2> how will network process blocks?
40 2013-04-28 00:10:41 <gmaxwell> huh?!
41 2013-04-28 00:10:44 Sealy has joined
42 2013-04-28 00:10:46 <vazakl-> " a majority of them can perpetually delay transactions," != tightly constrained
43 2013-04-28 00:11:05 <vazakl-> due to the economies of scale, its unlikely that a small cartel will ever not control the majority of bitcoin computing power
44 2013-04-28 00:11:08 melvster1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
45 2013-04-28 00:11:09 <alex2> gmaxwell: in bitcoin win client I can see I can select fee I want
46 2013-04-28 00:11:14 <gmaxwell> vazakl-: It's certantly not the same as they can do whatever they want however.
47 2013-04-28 00:11:21 <Steve132> If you are running a pool, what is the minimum amount of time you can force clients to submit proof-of-work?
48 2013-04-28 00:11:22 <alex2> transactional fee for sending and perhaps for accepting too
49 2013-04-28 00:11:52 <gmaxwell> vazakl-: It's not the case now that "a small cartel" "control the majority of bitcoin computing power"
50 2013-04-28 00:12:20 <vazakl-> http://blockchain.info/pools
51 2013-04-28 00:12:29 <gmaxwell> vazakl-: and you're still just waving your hands at "economies of scale", as I said, there are also diseconomies.
52 2013-04-28 00:12:37 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
53 2013-04-28 00:13:09 <gmaxwell> vazakl-: pools don't actually control the computing power, they're services that people with the computing power use to share the rewards to lower variance.
54 2013-04-28 00:13:11 <vazakl-> no hand-waving. i cited the specific economies of scle - asic fabrication, eectricity generation. none of that can be done profitably by individuals and is always centralized
55 2013-04-28 00:13:21 <vazakl-> they control what goes into the bocks they generate
56 2013-04-28 00:13:23 <alex2> gmaxwell: the calculation of transaction fees are hard coded?
57 2013-04-28 00:13:26 <tumak> vazakl-: maybe the small cartel is in control now
58 2013-04-28 00:13:31 <tumak> vazakl-: without even you knowing it
59 2013-04-28 00:13:37 <gmaxwell> They aren't major businesses, they're sole proprietorship running on shared hosting.
60 2013-04-28 00:13:38 <alex2> some can produce asics with backdoors :D
61 2013-04-28 00:13:42 <tumak> cartel in bitcoins work only as long its covert :)
62 2013-04-28 00:14:01 <vazakl-> nevertheless, this small handful of individuals that operate these pools/asics control what transactions go into blocks
63 2013-04-28 00:14:20 <tumak> you can scheme all you want as a mining cartel, but you must not make it apparent
64 2013-04-28 00:14:27 marr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
65 2013-04-28 00:14:39 <alex2> vazakl :)
66 2013-04-28 00:14:47 <gmaxwell> vazakl-: into their own blocks, and if they reject transactions people disagree with rejecting then in hours they can be gone, since they don't actually own anything.
67 2013-04-28 00:14:48 <tumak> once you do, huge backslash follows. mutual assured destruction.
68 2013-04-28 00:14:54 <vazakl-> im not saying theyre necessarily abusing the community's sense of fairness at this point. altho i think fees could be much lower
69 2013-04-28 00:15:19 taha has quit (Quit: Leaving)
70 2013-04-28 00:15:26 <tumak> vazakl-: lower?
71 2013-04-28 00:15:33 <tumak> i'm having no problems with 0 fees
72 2013-04-28 00:15:36 <gmaxwell> alex2: miners just take transactioned ordered by fees per kbyte, there is a low level floor where fees below 0.0005/kb are treated as zero to prevent dos attacks.
73 2013-04-28 00:15:52 <tumak> vazakl-: just follow the rules and you're not obliged to pay any fees
74 2013-04-28 00:16:00 <vazakl-> what id like to see if PoW in lieu of fees
75 2013-04-28 00:16:13 <vazakl-> like the original hashcash
76 2013-04-28 00:16:58 <gmaxwell> vazakl-: eligius supported that but no one ever used it.
77 2013-04-28 00:17:01 <tumak> imo, the fees atm are mostly to rate limit explosion in blockchain size
78 2013-04-28 00:17:12 <alex2> gmaxwell: if I modify source in linux to make transactional fee say 1% it will be rejected by other nodes?
79 2013-04-28 00:17:12 <alex2> or nit
80 2013-04-28 00:17:12 <alex2> *not
81 2013-04-28 00:17:29 <tumak> what?
82 2013-04-28 00:17:34 <gmaxwell> alex2: why would increasing your fees make your transactions get rejected?
83 2013-04-28 00:17:38 <tumak> why do people insist the fee is mandatory :)
84 2013-04-28 00:17:40 <vazakl-> gmaxwell: i bet they'd use it if it was baked into the client
85 2013-04-28 00:17:45 <tumak> the fee is mandatory only if your tx hurts the network
86 2013-04-28 00:17:46 <gmaxwell> (also % of value is not a good fee metric)
87 2013-04-28 00:17:52 <vazakl-> "click here to pay for this with your own idle-time cpu"
88 2013-04-28 00:18:17 <gmaxwell> tumak: because they've been using bitcoinj based software which overpays fees because it has no clue how big a transaction's gonna be before it authors it.
89 2013-04-28 00:18:26 <tumak> oh
90 2013-04-28 00:18:28 <tumak> :(
91 2013-04-28 00:18:35 <vazakl-> havent some miners been rejecting free tx?
92 2013-04-28 00:18:55 <gmaxwell> or they've been using the reference client and spending coins that got as bitdust from weird pay-to-solve-captchas-for-spammers services or the like.
93 2013-04-28 00:19:01 <tumak> not that i'm aware
94 2013-04-28 00:19:12 <vazakl-> the qt client enforces a fee, doesnt it?
95 2013-04-28 00:19:14 <tumak> free tx will get through as long its eligible and there is room in free tx mempool
96 2013-04-28 00:19:18 <alex2> lol omg captcha solving for btc
97 2013-04-28 00:19:19 <alex2> neat
98 2013-04-28 00:19:20 <alex2> :D
99 2013-04-28 00:19:24 <gmaxwell> vazakl-: no, not as far as I know. They're rate limited, and free txn which also has low priority (rapidly respending small coins, so it looks like a dos attack) doesn't get relayed.
100 2013-04-28 00:19:24 <vazakl-> last i heard you needed a patch to get the client to send it out with no fee
101 2013-04-28 00:19:25 intx has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
102 2013-04-28 00:19:31 <gmaxwell> vazakl-: thats not correct.
103 2013-04-28 00:19:46 <gmaxwell> I'm wondering with all these loud opinions... have you ever used bitcoin? :P
104 2013-04-28 00:20:11 <vazakl-> this was the patch: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=22434.0
105 2013-04-28 00:20:22 <tumak> the patch is dangerous
106 2013-04-28 00:20:32 <vazakl-> so at some point you needed a no forced transaction fee to get it to send without fees
107 2013-04-28 00:20:35 <gmaxwell> Yea, it's confused and also mostly pointless now.
108 2013-04-28 00:20:37 <tumak> it generates txns which is not readily accepted by miners
109 2013-04-28 00:20:43 <alex2> gmaxwell: I used it a bit
110 2013-04-28 00:20:48 <alex2> and I use litecoin a lot
111 2013-04-28 00:20:51 <alex2> and its same I think
112 2013-04-28 00:20:59 <tumak> alex2: its not necessary to use that patch
113 2013-04-28 00:20:59 <alex2> similar setup
114 2013-04-28 00:21:05 <vazakl-> so why does this fork exist if the standard client doesn't require a fee?
115 2013-04-28 00:21:19 <gmaxwell> No, litecoin has insane fee rulesâ an overreaction to them not having enough at all and getting hundreds of megs of spam added to their blockchain.
116 2013-04-28 00:21:26 <sipa> vazakl-: because in certain cases, it does require a minimal fee
117 2013-04-28 00:21:34 <tumak> vazakl-: if the txn is considered "spammy" according to various criteria
118 2013-04-28 00:21:38 <gmaxwell> Although that patch cannot generally help those cases.
119 2013-04-28 00:21:40 <sipa> vazakl-: in particular, when it creates a transaction that it wouldn't relay by itself
120 2013-04-28 00:21:44 <gmaxwell> Because the fee is imposed by your _peers_.
121 2013-04-28 00:22:03 <Steve132> So, I'm thinking: what if we developed an apache or ngix module to stop ddos attacks?
122 2013-04-28 00:22:10 <alex2> gmaxwell: how many peers have to accept block as solved? 100%
123 2013-04-28 00:22:15 <Steve132> And the basic idea would be from mod_kapow
124 2013-04-28 00:22:16 <alex2> or say majority
125 2013-04-28 00:22:23 <sipa> alex2: 100%
126 2013-04-28 00:22:26 <vazakl-> right, so my point stands. a PoW in lieu of a mandatory fee would be preferable
127 2013-04-28 00:22:36 <gmaxwell> There were some cases where you would have authored a transaction which was right on the boundary of passing, and then would actually work after the next blockâ a modest delay. But we've since changed the calculation in the reference software to instead impose the priority check relative to the next block instead.
128 2013-04-28 00:22:38 <tumak> can ve have #bitcoin-tech-trivia please? :)
129 2013-04-28 00:22:39 <Steve132> but the proof-of-work would be bitcoin mining?
130 2013-04-28 00:22:53 <alex2> sipa so say 1 run 1 node and I set 50% transaction fee then no one blocks get accepted?
131 2013-04-28 00:22:55 mekel___ has joined
132 2013-04-28 00:23:02 <alex2> * I run
133 2013-04-28 00:23:05 <mekel___> y0y0y0
134 2013-04-28 00:23:12 <gmaxwell> Steve132: sure. sounds fine, except JS mining is really slow and an attacker with a non-JS miner could still attack the heck out of you.
135 2013-04-28 00:23:13 <vazakl-> Steve132: the PoW would apply to your transaction only. it woud be accepted in lieu of a fee so you can haave true zero-fee tx's
136 2013-04-28 00:23:13 <alex2> hey mekel___
137 2013-04-28 00:23:15 <sipa> alex2: transactions and blocks are two differen things
138 2013-04-28 00:23:22 <mekel___> hows it goin
139 2013-04-28 00:23:24 <sipa> vazakl-: so i as a miner with a nice ASIC start a profitable business where people can relay a transaction through me, and i add PoW
140 2013-04-28 00:23:46 <sipa> vazakl-: it costs me next to nothing compared to what those with CPU PoW pay in electricity for their transactions
141 2013-04-28 00:23:55 <Steve132> vazakl: I don't think we were talking about the same thing
142 2013-04-28 00:23:57 <alex2> sipa hmm interesting
143 2013-04-28 00:24:10 <vazakl-> sipa: except you had to buy a fancy asic just to enable strangers to spam you?
144 2013-04-28 00:24:11 <alex2> sipa so I solve block and send to you?
145 2013-04-28 00:24:27 <gmaxwell> sipa: there is a bit of availablity cost.. e.g. bitcoins are hardish to come by except by mining, while everyone has a cpu or twenty.
146 2013-04-28 00:24:37 <vazakl-> why would anyone rent out their ASIC to random spammers for no compensation...
147 2013-04-28 00:24:41 <sipa> vazakl-: they pay me for it of course, but less than what it would cost them in electricity
148 2013-04-28 00:24:45 <Steve132> gmaxwell: sure, but its still an order-of-magnitude within the same
149 2013-04-28 00:25:00 <volante> question: are the contracts mentioned in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts actually implemented and possible now?
150 2013-04-28 00:25:01 <tumak> vazakl-: better question, why wouldn't botnet owners do that ....
151 2013-04-28 00:25:02 <sipa> vazakl-: and my marginal cost is almost 0
152 2013-04-28 00:25:11 <vazakl-> sipa: ok, so they are paying, so they cant spam without reprocussions
153 2013-04-28 00:25:14 <gmaxwell> Steve132: it's not really.. I mean a GPU can do 300MH/s.. you get 15-20kh/s from any JS miner I've seen. :(
154 2013-04-28 00:25:19 <Steve132> Even a non-js miner would be rate-limited
155 2013-04-28 00:25:21 <gmaxwell> maybe asm.js will help.
156 2013-04-28 00:25:27 <mekel___> so i installed linuxcoin on a flash drive
157 2013-04-28 00:25:32 buZz has joined
158 2013-04-28 00:25:33 <mekel___> and its running great
159 2013-04-28 00:25:35 <buZz> hiya
160 2013-04-28 00:25:37 <mekel___> until i reboot...
161 2013-04-28 00:25:46 <mekel___> when i make changes to the files I cant commit anything to memory, once i reboot it disapears. Anyone have a clue why?
162 2013-04-28 00:26:05 <Steve132> gmaxwell: what percentage of ddos clients have top-quality mining rigs?
163 2013-04-28 00:26:15 <gmaxwell> 300 MH is a single consumer gpu.
164 2013-04-28 00:26:20 <gmaxwell> (well, an ati one)
165 2013-04-28 00:26:25 Conflict has joined
166 2013-04-28 00:26:29 <alex2> sipa so I solve block aka find hash lower or = current target then I need to relay it to network and relaying this info cost transaction fee right?
167 2013-04-28 00:26:38 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
168 2013-04-28 00:26:39 <Steve132> right, a top-of-the line one
169 2013-04-28 00:26:42 <gmaxwell> alex2: no. 0_o
170 2013-04-28 00:26:52 <alex2> lol how does it work?
171 2013-04-28 00:26:57 <Steve132> what percentage of infected machines have top-of-the line gaming rigs?
172 2013-04-28 00:26:59 <sipa> alex2: A BLOCK IS NOT A TRANSACTION
173 2013-04-28 00:27:00 <tumak> #bitcoin-tech-trivia
174 2013-04-28 00:27:01 <gmaxwell> Steve132: then fine say 150 and it's a four year old middle tier one.
175 2013-04-28 00:27:02 <tumak> seriously
176 2013-04-28 00:27:05 <sipa> alex2: transactions have a transaction fee
177 2013-04-28 00:27:13 <gmaxwell> Steve132: there are botnets with tens of gh/s mining.
178 2013-04-28 00:27:27 <Steve132> gmaxwelll: yes, obviousl
179 2013-04-28 00:27:27 <alex2> sipa transaction such as sending coins via rpc port right?
180 2013-04-28 00:27:28 <alex2> prc
181 2013-04-28 00:27:32 <gmaxwell> Steve132: I'm not saying its a bad idea. I think its a fun one, it just may be less good than you're thinking.
182 2013-04-28 00:27:42 <Steve132> but the goal is to puta disincentive on ddos attacks
183 2013-04-28 00:27:52 <alex2> and hash solving is done via port nr 2 the port that relays to all nodes?
184 2013-04-28 00:27:52 <vazakl-> PoW is the same as fees anyway. you could just join a mining pool to pay for your fee. but PoW is better because it removes some bad incentives from the transaction filtering that miners do, and gives ppl more flexibility in how they want to pay for the service
185 2013-04-28 00:27:52 <volante> question: are the contracts mentioned in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts actually implemented and possible now?
186 2013-04-28 00:27:58 <sipa> alex2: can you please go to #bitcoin and ask for a basic explanation there?
187 2013-04-28 00:28:01 <Steve132> if you DO have a mining-capble botnet, why use it to ddos?
188 2013-04-28 00:28:05 <Steve132> why not use it to mine?
189 2013-04-28 00:28:08 <alex2> ok
190 2013-04-28 00:28:08 <alex2> :)
191 2013-04-28 00:28:09 <gmaxwell> Steve132: I'd also suggest a idea where the client could have a bitcoin address set and would then mine POW that pays half the winning if they solve a block to themselves (or their favorite charity that accepts bitcoin)
192 2013-04-28 00:28:29 <gmaxwell> Steve132: this would disincentivize the pow clients withhold solutions.
193 2013-04-28 00:28:40 <gmaxwell> Steve132: why not both? :)
194 2013-04-28 00:28:47 franl has joined
195 2013-04-28 00:28:53 <Steve132> gmaxwell: well, the point is that this isn't to punish legitimate clients
196 2013-04-28 00:29:00 <Steve132> so preferably, they would't even be aware of it
197 2013-04-28 00:29:38 <Steve132> for a legitimate client, they'd just get a notice that says "This site is under ddos attack...please wait 10 more seconds to gain access" while their pc provided a proof-of-work
198 2013-04-28 00:30:21 <tumak> anti-ddos pow is nothing but arms race :(
199 2013-04-28 00:30:31 <vazakl-> you can always make the PoW roughly equivalent to the currently difficulty / X. PoW is the same as a fee
200 2013-04-28 00:30:31 <Steve132> http://games.cs.pdx.edu/documentation/publications/globalinternet08_kapow.pdf?Nc=1408f8fe24c&Dc=10&A=10
201 2013-04-28 00:30:33 <gmaxwell> I'm pretty sure people would be aware of it if it were widely used.
202 2013-04-28 00:30:36 <alex2> simply use ipv6
203 2013-04-28 00:30:43 <alex2> since most botnets run ip4
204 2013-04-28 00:30:49 <tumak> lol
205 2013-04-28 00:30:52 <alex2> ;)
206 2013-04-28 00:30:57 <Steve132> tumak: what makes you say that?
207 2013-04-28 00:30:57 <tumak> or ipsec!
208 2013-04-28 00:31:02 <tumak> since nobody uses ipsec
209 2013-04-28 00:31:08 <denisx> I do
210 2013-04-28 00:31:10 <volante> from the bitcoin wiki: "non-standard scripts are accepted if they are in a block, but nodes will not relay them". <-- when will non standard scripts be relayed? are there plans?
211 2013-04-28 00:31:11 <gmaxwell> alex2: "I avoided the door to door bible salesmen by moving to siberia, none of them here!"
212 2013-04-28 00:31:12 <alex2> is there some bitcoin coders academy? :D
213 2013-04-28 00:31:25 <tumak> alex2: seems like it
214 2013-04-28 00:31:33 <tumak> people should just rtfm by reading the source code though :(
215 2013-04-28 00:31:37 <Steve132> abut the arms race?
216 2013-04-28 00:31:37 seeingidog__ has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
217 2013-04-28 00:31:42 <tumak> and ask if something is not obvious from it
218 2013-04-28 00:31:51 <alex2> i love marketing reading code takes ages :)
219 2013-04-28 00:31:56 <alex2> however I read it a bit
220 2013-04-28 00:32:12 <gmaxwell> volante: varrious script types can be made standard over time as usecases for them are demonstrated. There are no immediate plans for removing that behavior, since its done a good job at protecting the network from rampent abuse.
221 2013-04-28 00:32:37 <gmaxwell> volante: that restriction doesn't exist on testnet however, so you can expirement there.
222 2013-04-28 00:32:55 <vazakl-> i think the threat that users will fork keeps th eminers in check. ive seen some proposals where the clients start getting suspicious if there are too many high-priority old transactions lying around
223 2013-04-28 00:33:24 <tumak> vazakl-: no need for that
224 2013-04-28 00:33:39 <volante> there is a use case where an "oracle" is required to provide a signature. are there any existing script types to support this at the moment? and any existing services that provide this?
225 2013-04-28 00:33:39 <tumak> vazakl-: whenever something bad happens this channel will be flooded with people bitching their tx didnt confirm
226 2013-04-28 00:33:43 <tumak> eg the blockchain fork
227 2013-04-28 00:34:06 <sipa> gmaxwell: "meh" issue regarding FD_SETSIZE... on POSIX it specifies the highest fd that can be stored in it; on windows it specifies how _many_ fd's can be stored in it
228 2013-04-28 00:34:08 MobiusL is now known as ReadMe
229 2013-04-28 00:34:12 <mekel___> anyone hav experiencew with linuxcoin?
230 2013-04-28 00:34:26 <sipa> gmaxwell: so maxconnection clamping based on it, is again system-dependent
231 2013-04-28 00:34:39 <alex2> mekel whats the github url?
232 2013-04-28 00:35:01 <vazakl-> sadly, the threat of a forking the constitution doesn't worry the government. they have free reign.
233 2013-04-28 00:35:18 <alex2> the reason I asked about transactions fees I like freicoin demurage idea, then miners get set amount per block to support network
234 2013-04-28 00:35:23 <gmaxwell> sipa: Mostly I meant to clamp maximum fd's for the process indirectly by claimping maxconnection. I know on some systems sending in FD >1024 to select will cause memory corruption.
235 2013-04-28 00:35:28 <tumak> sipa: every unix system implements fdset as bitmap
236 2013-04-28 00:35:36 <sipa> tumak: i know
237 2013-04-28 00:35:36 <Steve132> tumak: what makes you say PoW for ddos is just an arms race?
238 2013-04-28 00:35:37 ReadMe is now known as MobiusL
239 2013-04-28 00:35:38 <tumak> you can redefine it and it will work
240 2013-04-28 00:35:41 <gmaxwell> alex2: potentially highly highly distorting.
241 2013-04-28 00:35:43 <tumak> sipa: except windows
242 2013-04-28 00:35:43 <tumak> :)
243 2013-04-28 00:35:45 <sipa> tumak: windows is not a unix system
244 2013-04-28 00:35:57 <tumak> where fdset is in fact list of handles
245 2013-04-28 00:36:01 <sipa> indeed
246 2013-04-28 00:36:13 <mekel___> https://github.com/timbowhite/linuxcoin-setup/blob/master/README.md
247 2013-04-28 00:36:16 OneFixt has joined
248 2013-04-28 00:36:41 <alex2> gmaxwell: how come?
249 2013-04-28 00:36:47 <alex2> its simple say usage fee
250 2013-04-28 00:37:02 <tumak> Steve132: soon to be explained on cloudflare blog
251 2013-04-28 00:37:15 <Steve132> ok?
252 2013-04-28 00:37:18 <tumak> Steve132: just think about for a while :)
253 2013-04-28 00:37:20 <Steve132> summarize?
254 2013-04-28 00:37:31 <tumak> well, the attacker kinda has botnet at his disposal
255 2013-04-28 00:37:35 <tumak> thats kinda lot of cpu power
256 2013-04-28 00:37:36 OneFixt has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
257 2013-04-28 00:37:36 <gmaxwell> alex2: say that there is a surge of popularity and each friecoin is work 100,000 or whatever. now mining is producing a billion dollars a day in freicoin profits and people are trying to figure out how to convert the moon into energy to power their miners.
258 2013-04-28 00:37:42 <Steve132> So?
259 2013-04-28 00:37:50 <Steve132> Factoring is NP-hard
260 2013-04-28 00:37:53 <Steve132> well, its not
261 2013-04-28 00:37:54 OneFixt has joined
262 2013-04-28 00:37:56 <Steve132> but its hard
263 2013-04-28 00:37:58 <gmaxwell> alex2: it basically makes the profits from mining and freicoin value tightly interwoven.
264 2013-04-28 00:38:10 <tumak> Steve132: you want pow for every page view?
265 2013-04-28 00:38:11 <Steve132> you can exponentially increase the difficulty
266 2013-04-28 00:38:15 <Steve132> for each client
267 2013-04-28 00:38:19 <Steve132> tumak: why not?
268 2013-04-28 00:38:26 <tumak> how that could possibly work
269 2013-04-28 00:38:33 <Steve132> I gave a link to a paper
270 2013-04-28 00:38:34 <tumak> geee, i click here and must wait 5 seconds every time
271 2013-04-28 00:38:44 <tumak> Steve132: cloud flare already uses it
272 2013-04-28 00:38:44 <Steve132> better than the site being down
273 2013-04-28 00:38:48 <tumak> and it stopped working after 2 weeks
274 2013-04-28 00:39:01 <Steve132> why is that?
275 2013-04-28 00:39:09 Ramokk has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
276 2013-04-28 00:39:16 <tumak> apparently attackers learned to execute javascript
277 2013-04-28 00:39:22 <Steve132> yeah, so?
278 2013-04-28 00:39:34 <tumak> well, just do the same thing
279 2013-04-28 00:39:40 <tumak> if you have 100k strong botnet
280 2013-04-28 00:39:43 xeroc has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
281 2013-04-28 00:39:48 <tumak> your pow will annoy at least 100k people visiting the site
282 2013-04-28 00:39:57 <Steve132> thats fine
283 2013-04-28 00:40:08 <Steve132> rather wait for 5 seconds than just have it be down
284 2013-04-28 00:40:31 <tumak> Steve132: assume only 1000 people want to visit the site
285 2013-04-28 00:40:36 <tumak> Steve132: so they'll have to wait 500 seconds
286 2013-04-28 00:40:38 <tumak> for every click
287 2013-04-28 00:40:43 <alex2> gmaxwell: so far bank swift cost money, using wmz, liberty reserve cost money via % and freicoin like coins simply say clear this is fee to use it say 1% to account for potentially high value
288 2013-04-28 00:40:43 <Steve132> Why?
289 2013-04-28 00:40:50 <Steve132> that makes no sense
290 2013-04-28 00:41:00 <tumak> Steve132: 100,000 = 100 * 1000
291 2013-04-28 00:41:05 Skav has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
292 2013-04-28 00:41:06 <tumak> 5 * 100
293 2013-04-28 00:41:20 <alex2> miners mine to resell coins at higher value however then at some stage value goes down and many cry
294 2013-04-28 00:41:23 <tumak> Steve132: you cant tell whos attacker and who is not
295 2013-04-28 00:41:29 <Steve132> tumak: I know
296 2013-04-28 00:41:30 <alex2> or it can be % going to miners via demurafe
297 2013-04-28 00:41:34 <alex2> demurage
298 2013-04-28 00:41:43 <Steve132> would you like to discuss this over Pm to not mess up the channel?
299 2013-04-28 00:42:01 <Steve132> If 1000 people want to visit the site
300 2013-04-28 00:42:08 <Steve132> then each visitor waits 5 seconds
301 2013-04-28 00:42:13 <Steve132> so...now what?
302 2013-04-28 00:42:18 <tumak> its marginally relevant to bitcoin, once tcp-level attacks become commonplace
303 2013-04-28 00:42:21 <Steve132> whats teh problem?
304 2013-04-28 00:42:24 <tumak> kinda like
305 2013-04-28 00:42:33 <tumak> ddos all the bitcoind of all mining pools
306 2013-04-28 00:42:57 <Steve132> sure...I was mostly thinking in the context of people ddos-ing exchanges
307 2013-04-28 00:43:00 <Steve132> but sure
308 2013-04-28 00:43:31 <Steve132> I still don't follow what you were trying to say with the math
309 2013-04-28 00:43:39 <tumak> Steve132: my point being, aggregate pow of attacker is usually more than 100 times more than aggregate power of clients visiting the site
310 2013-04-28 00:43:50 <Steve132> so?
311 2013-04-28 00:44:04 <tumak> so the clients have to wait 100 times longer
312 2013-04-28 00:44:13 <vazakl-> PoW in lieu of fees solves a lot of issues with miners strategically delaying/refusing transactions to increase revnues or embargo certain users. they should be able to add the PoW's from the transactions to the difficulty of their block solution
313 2013-04-28 00:44:19 <tumak> effectively get their service denied
314 2013-04-28 00:44:21 <tumak> by ddos protection :)
315 2013-04-28 00:44:23 <tumak> its flawed
316 2013-04-28 00:44:27 <Steve132> Why wold they hve to wait 100 times longer?
317 2013-04-28 00:44:52 agricocb has joined
318 2013-04-28 00:45:11 <Steve132> You have a 100k strong botnet. My site can handle 200k pageviews/second. 1k legitimate customers
319 2013-04-28 00:45:31 MobPhone has joined
320 2013-04-28 00:45:33 <Steve132> my 1k legitimate customers make 1-2 pageviews a second at max
321 2013-04-28 00:45:44 <Steve132> your 100k strong botnet makes 1000 pageviews a second
322 2013-04-28 00:46:01 <tumak> Steve132: with 200k pv/sec its ok
323 2013-04-28 00:46:02 <gmaxwell> problem is that if the attacker has one fast gpu they have as much computing power asâ say 17647 legit customers.
324 2013-04-28 00:46:03 Lolcust has quit (Quit: Nap time)
325 2013-04-28 00:46:07 <Steve132> per bot
326 2013-04-28 00:46:22 <tumak> gmaxwell: this is "solved" by js obfuscation usually
327 2013-04-28 00:46:31 <tumak> not good in theory, but in practice it works
328 2013-04-28 00:46:36 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
329 2013-04-28 00:46:37 <tumak> you need js interpreter to untangle it
330 2013-04-28 00:46:37 <Steve132> ok? I just picked some random value
331 2013-04-28 00:46:57 <tumak> Steve132: i've heard mtgox starts to crawl at 1k pv/s :)
332 2013-04-28 00:47:19 [Author] has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
333 2013-04-28 00:47:21 Lolcust has joined
334 2013-04-28 00:47:21 <Steve132> but the math still works the same...... total pv/s=legit pv/s+illegit pv/s
335 2013-04-28 00:47:22 <tumak> yeah
336 2013-04-28 00:47:23 <gmaxwell> tumak: Steve132 was suggesting using mining as the pow.
337 2013-04-28 00:47:24 <tumak> practice is different
338 2013-04-28 00:47:30 <alex2> Steve read on ddos that slow down internet
339 2013-04-28 00:47:31 <alex2> ;)
340 2013-04-28 00:47:52 <alex2> *slowed
341 2013-04-28 00:48:01 <Steve132> pv/s = clients * pv/client/s
342 2013-04-28 00:48:23 <tumak> nah, Steve132's argument is solid if we're talking http/js pow
343 2013-04-28 00:48:35 <fishfish> hi guys, quick q: on the Testnet, i have btcd set to use paytxfee at 0.0005. I can see the trx coming out, flagged with the 0.0005 fee. Yet when I send them in quick succession (around 30 in 30 seconds) , only 2-5 get confirmed. Everything else is stuck in limbo. Is this a testnet issue, is my fee set wrong or am i missing the obvious?
344 2013-04-28 00:48:36 <Steve132> scaling the pv/client/s by a constant factor in both case has a tremendous win
345 2013-04-28 00:48:39 <tumak> assuming the site can handle couple hundred k's of pv/s
346 2013-04-28 00:48:43 <bytecoin> guys
347 2013-04-28 00:48:55 <bytecoin> look at this
348 2013-04-28 00:49:12 <tumak> Steve132: there is another problem btw
349 2013-04-28 00:49:14 <bytecoin> 25:[ true, "0.0.0.0", 8333, 1], dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org
350 2013-04-28 00:49:15 <bytecoin> 24:[ true, "40.168.152.0", 8333, 1], dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org
351 2013-04-28 00:49:17 <bytecoin> 23:[ true, "200.167.152.0", 8333, 1], dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org
352 2013-04-28 00:49:18 <bytecoin> 22:[ true, "104.167.152.0", 8333, 1], dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org
353 2013-04-28 00:49:19 <vazakl-> miners as a group have an incentive to extort users into adding more fees. but they have no incentive to extor more PoWs from users, because it doesn't increase their revnues. If they can add the PoW to their solutions difficulty rating, they will grab as many as possible, without holding out for more PoWs. A global rise in PoW doesn't give them any transfer of wealth, as a global rise in
354 2013-04-28 00:49:19 <vazakl-> fees does
355 2013-04-28 00:49:20 <bytecoin> 21:[ true, "8.167.152.0", 8333, 1], dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org
356 2013-04-28 00:49:21 <bytecoin> 20:[ true, "168.166.152.0", 8333, 1], dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org
357 2013-04-28 00:49:23 <bytecoin> 19:[ true, "72.166.152.0", 8333, 1], dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org
358 2013-04-28 00:49:24 <bytecoin> 18:[ true, "232.165.152.0", 8333, 1], dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org
359 2013-04-28 00:49:27 <bytecoin> 17:[ true, "136.165.152.0", 8333, 1], dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org
360 2013-04-28 00:49:27 <tumak> bytecoin: the fuck?
361 2013-04-28 00:49:28 <bytecoin> 16:[ true, "40.165.152.0", 8333, 1], dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org
362 2013-04-28 00:49:29 <bytecoin> 15:[ true, "200.164.152.0", 8333, 1], dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org
363 2013-04-28 00:49:30 <tumak> pastebin
364 2013-04-28 00:49:31 <bytecoin> 14:[ true, "104.164.152.0", 8333, 1], dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org
365 2013-04-28 00:49:33 <bytecoin> 13:[ true, "8.164.152.0", 8333, 1], dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org
366 2013-04-28 00:49:34 <bytecoin> 12:[ true, "168.163.152.0", 8333, 1], dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org
367 2013-04-28 00:49:36 <bytecoin> 11:[ true, "72.163.152.0", 8333, 1], dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org
368 2013-04-28 00:49:38 <bytecoin> 10:[ true, "232.162.152.0", 8333, 1], dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org
369 2013-04-28 00:49:39 <bytecoin> 9:[ true, "136.162.152.0", 8333, 1], dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org
370 2013-04-28 00:49:40 <Luke-Jr> â¦
371 2013-04-28 00:49:41 <bytecoin> 8:[ true, "40.162.152.0", 8333, 1], dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org
372 2013-04-28 00:49:42 <bytecoin> 7:[ true, "200.161.152.0", 8333, 1], dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org
373 2013-04-28 00:49:44 <bytecoin> 6:[ true, "176.175.152.0", 8333, 1], dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org
374 2013-04-28 00:49:46 <bytecoin> 5:[ true, "120.175.152.0", 8333, 1], dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org
375 2013-04-28 00:49:47 <gmaxwell> What am I looking at?
376 2013-04-28 00:49:54 <alex2> eee
377 2013-04-28 00:49:54 <fishfish> thanks chanserv
378 2013-04-28 00:49:57 bytecoin has joined
379 2013-04-28 00:50:05 <tumak> bytecoin: irc != jabber
380 2013-04-28 00:50:11 <gmaxwell> bytecoin: sorry for bluematt's kick there.
381 2013-04-28 00:50:15 <gmaxwell> bytecoin: what are we looking at?
382 2013-04-28 00:50:18 <BlueMatt> use a pastebin
383 2013-04-28 00:50:29 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
384 2013-04-28 00:50:32 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: umm...100 lines gets a kick to make it stop...
385 2013-04-28 00:50:32 <tumak> Steve132: you forget that attacker solves 100k of POWs. and then hits the site with solution all at once
386 2013-04-28 00:50:46 <tumak> Steve132: which is why you need to handle at least that much p/v s
387 2013-04-28 00:50:49 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: thats fine, I'm not yelling at you. But its also nothing personal.
388 2013-04-28 00:50:50 <Steve132> sure, which would cause a local spike
389 2013-04-28 00:50:52 <bytecoin> that was 25 lines
390 2013-04-28 00:51:00 <vazakl-> miners want to extort higher fees out of users. but if you place fees wiht PoWs miners have no incentive to extort more PoWs. but the cost to the sender is the same (PoW = fee) so the de-spam incentive is still there
391 2013-04-28 00:51:02 <Luke-Jr> vazakl-: fees *are* the "PoW" for users
392 2013-04-28 00:51:03 <bytecoin> yeah pastebin,i know, sorry folks
393 2013-04-28 00:51:05 <Steve132> but when that spike went through they'dhave to start over again
394 2013-04-28 00:51:21 <tumak> Steve132: but averaged out your argument is fine. problem is sites are not designed that much pv/s :(
395 2013-04-28 00:51:26 <Steve132> and you could ban all ips that requested at teh same time did that for a 24h periord
396 2013-04-28 00:51:29 <BlueMatt> bytecoin: >3 needs pastebin
397 2013-04-28 00:51:34 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: see my earlier comment about differential availablity.
398 2013-04-28 00:51:37 <vazakl-> Luke-Jr: except miners have bad incentives to extort higher fees out of users because those fees are a transfer of wealth from users t ominers. with PoWs, the bad incentive is gone
399 2013-04-28 00:51:40 <Luke-Jr> bytecoin: in any case, care to say your problem?
400 2013-04-28 00:51:42 <Steve132> tumak: but if you built this into an apache or ngix module
401 2013-04-28 00:51:42 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
402 2013-04-28 00:51:48 <Steve132> then you could serve this statically
403 2013-04-28 00:51:52 <Steve132> without running anything
404 2013-04-28 00:51:57 <tumak> Steve132: thats what cloudflare does
405 2013-04-28 00:52:00 <gmaxwell> stop arguing about pastebins and tell me what I'm supposted to be seeing there?
406 2013-04-28 00:52:01 <Steve132> of the site itself
407 2013-04-28 00:52:04 <Luke-Jr> vazakl-: you've also eliminated the incentive for miners to mine
408 2013-04-28 00:52:10 <tumak> Steve132: their nginx let it through only if you present pow
409 2013-04-28 00:52:25 <tumak> Steve132: so attacker calculates 100k POWs and then hits at once
410 2013-04-28 00:52:31 <bytecoin> HI, why is the last line I get from a dns-seeed always "0.0.0.0", 8333,
411 2013-04-28 00:52:33 <tumak> Steve132: and their nginx will let it through to whatever crap is behind
412 2013-04-28 00:52:40 <vazakl-> Luke-Jr: nah they still get a bounty (for the foreseabble future) but even that is possibly unnecessary.
413 2013-04-28 00:52:41 <bytecoin> Ip4 0.0.0.0
414 2013-04-28 00:52:46 <BlueMatt> bytecoin: anyway, what was that paste anyway?
415 2013-04-28 00:52:55 <Steve132> and you ban every single IP that hit durin that time for a 24 hour periord
416 2013-04-28 00:53:01 <sipa> bytecoin: looks arong to me
417 2013-04-28 00:53:01 <bytecoin> I was getting ip from the dns-seeds
418 2013-04-28 00:53:03 <sipa> bytecoin: wrong
419 2013-04-28 00:53:07 <vazakl-> dns was run as a free infrastructure service for a long time because the people involved had an incentive to create a network (much like hte businesses who will rely on bitcoin).
420 2013-04-28 00:53:09 <Luke-Jr> vazakl-: subsidy is temporary
421 2013-04-28 00:53:09 <gmaxwell> bytecoin: weird, I don't get that when I dig dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org
422 2013-04-28 00:53:17 <tumak> Steve132: the point is to overload db with lock contention because you just fired 100k queries at once ... for example
423 2013-04-28 00:53:18 <bytecoin> famn
424 2013-04-28 00:53:19 <sipa> bytecoin: all your IPs end with .0 too, which is equally wrong
425 2013-04-28 00:53:21 <gmaxwell> bytecoin: broken intermediate resolver?
426 2013-04-28 00:53:30 <sipa> bytecoin: how do you retrieve that data?
427 2013-04-28 00:53:31 <vazakl-> Luke-Jr: im sure it will be extended before the "deadline" of 2140
428 2013-04-28 00:53:39 <tumak> Steve132: by the time it recovers, attacker computed next batch of POWs
429 2013-04-28 00:53:43 ubias has quit (Quit: Leaving)
430 2013-04-28 00:53:49 <Steve132> tumak: why would there be any db queries at all?
431 2013-04-28 00:53:52 <gmaxwell> http://pastebin.com/edu1BDBS
432 2013-04-28 00:53:59 <tumak> Steve132: because thats how are websites designed
433 2013-04-28 00:53:59 <Luke-Jr> vazakl-: I'm sure it won't be.
434 2013-04-28 00:54:02 <Steve132> yeah
435 2013-04-28 00:54:07 <tumak> Steve132: you're not protecting static page, remember
436 2013-04-28 00:54:07 <Steve132> I'm saying serve only a static page
437 2013-04-28 00:54:10 <Steve132> I know
438 2013-04-28 00:54:17 <tumak> Steve132: but complex db driven app
439 2013-04-28 00:54:18 <alex2> tumak are you talking about ddos of exchange?
440 2013-04-28 00:54:21 <Luke-Jr> hmm, seems my server has a bit of packet loss
441 2013-04-28 00:54:29 <bytecoin> getaddrinfo
442 2013-04-28 00:54:33 <bytecoin> straightforward
443 2013-04-28 00:54:41 <Steve132> Actually, I see your point...you are saying the POW verification lets those requests through because they are valid
444 2013-04-28 00:54:42 <vazakl-> Luke-Jr: point is moot anyway. even the subsidy is unnecessary, because enough people have an incentive to create a network (like DNS or even bittorrent seeds)
445 2013-04-28 00:55:01 <alex2> vazakl-: miners want reward
446 2013-04-28 00:55:07 <Steve132> wouldn't that mean that attacker has to do the attack in a cycle, however?
447 2013-04-28 00:55:07 <tumak> Steve132: it relies on cascade effects of crap site scaling design
448 2013-04-28 00:55:08 <alex2> to maintain chain
449 2013-04-28 00:55:10 <sipa> bytecoin: apparently not ;)
450 2013-04-28 00:55:11 <Steve132> right
451 2013-04-28 00:55:15 <gmaxwell> vazakl-: and outspend potential attackers? not entirely clear. Besides we had to distribute the initial coins somehow.
452 2013-04-28 00:55:24 <vazakl-> alex2: the reward is having a functioning economy that's cheaper to operate than al the alternatives like credit cards
453 2013-04-28 00:55:28 <Steve132> but in order to get through the initial POW, it has to attack in phase
454 2013-04-28 00:55:41 <Steve132> like, collect up all the POW, wait till the end of 10s
455 2013-04-28 00:55:43 <Steve132> and submit
456 2013-04-28 00:55:45 <Steve132> in a batch
457 2013-04-28 00:55:46 <tumak> Steve132: sure, its compute/attack, compute/attack
458 2013-04-28 00:55:48 <Steve132> repeat
459 2013-04-28 00:55:49 <Steve132> right
460 2013-04-28 00:55:51 <alex2> vazakl then u can premine 100,000 coins and back them bu gold
461 2013-04-28 00:55:52 <alex2> here u got
462 2013-04-28 00:56:01 <alex2> make u private anon coin
463 2013-04-28 00:56:10 <sipa> vazakl-: i don't see how (if both are implemented using the same quality of technology) a decentralized system can be cheaper to run than a centralized one
464 2013-04-28 00:56:18 <Steve132> so watch for the phase, 24h ban for every IP within 0.1 radians of the attack phase
465 2013-04-28 00:56:23 <Steve132> that makes a request
466 2013-04-28 00:56:30 ecolo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
467 2013-04-28 00:56:33 <Steve132> or even 1h
468 2013-04-28 00:56:33 <tumak> Steve132: yup, thats what cloudflare basically does
469 2013-04-28 00:56:33 <sipa> vazakl-: decentralization has its price, but you get something in return: less trust needed
470 2013-04-28 00:56:41 <tumak> Steve132: but it takes couple of hours :)
471 2013-04-28 00:57:13 <Steve132> Why would that take a couple hours?
472 2013-04-28 00:57:17 <denisx> did ozcoin not recover?
473 2013-04-28 00:57:18 <vazakl-> sipa: its cheaper because of the economic rents that always accompany centralized control. if power is concentrated in some central authority, they will take a rake/vig/rent out of the network
474 2013-04-28 00:57:26 <tumak> Steve132: telling friend or foe is extremely hard for sophisticated attacks
475 2013-04-28 00:57:26 <Steve132> It seems like it should take maybe 1-5 cycles at most
476 2013-04-28 00:57:28 <Steve132> minutes
477 2013-04-28 00:57:33 <Steve132> sure, but who cares
478 2013-04-28 00:57:38 orcik has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
479 2013-04-28 00:57:46 <Steve132> As a user, I'd rather be caught in a 1h ban
480 2013-04-28 00:57:59 <Steve132> than a 16h denial
481 2013-04-28 00:58:02 <tumak> Steve132: they resort to captcha actually
482 2013-04-28 00:58:13 <tumak> and sometimes even depeer whole countries :)
483 2013-04-28 00:58:13 <Steve132> that works too
484 2013-04-28 00:58:15 <Steve132> *too
485 2013-04-28 00:58:26 <gmaxwell> bytecoin: no idea why I'm getting totally different results than youâ what happens if you dig ?
486 2013-04-28 00:58:27 has quit (Clown|!~clown@unaffiliated/clown/x-0272709|Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
487 2013-04-28 00:58:29 <vazakl-> decentralization is just synonymous with competition..
488 2013-04-28 00:58:35 <gmaxwell> ...
489 2013-04-28 00:58:38 <gmaxwell> 0_o
490 2013-04-28 00:58:39 <Steve132> So why doesn't someone release this open sourc
491 2013-04-28 00:58:52 <Steve132> I mean, obviously cloudflare isn't incentivzed to do that
492 2013-04-28 00:59:09 <tumak> Steve132: it is more or less opensource
493 2013-04-28 00:59:11 <Steve132> but like, for example, last week, blockchain.info went down because the attacker found their non-cloudflare IP
494 2013-04-28 00:59:12 <alex2> I am a bit lost
495 2013-04-28 00:59:12 <alex2> :d
496 2013-04-28 00:59:26 <Steve132> but that confused me, because the system I described should be installed locally
497 2013-04-28 00:59:30 <tumak> Steve132: yeah, but that was piuk's sloppiness
498 2013-04-28 00:59:31 <alex2> most none ipv6 can be ddosed
499 2013-04-28 00:59:35 <vazakl-> arent most DOS's at the http or IP level... why would attackers execute javascript
500 2013-04-28 00:59:43 <tumak> Steve132: hes got ip leaks all over the place :(
501 2013-04-28 00:59:50 <alex2> use onion :)
502 2013-04-28 00:59:52 <alex2> on tor
503 2013-04-28 01:00:04 <Steve132> why would that even be a problem? Why wouldn't you install it locally?
504 2013-04-28 01:00:11 <Luke-Jr> sipa: weird, BIND 'dig' doesn't like bitcoin-seeder's response
505 2013-04-28 01:00:20 agricocb has joined
506 2013-04-28 01:00:21 <gmaxwell> vazakl-: because once you have enough bandwidth ip level attacks don't work anymore, so the attackers go after application soft points.
507 2013-04-28 01:00:27 <tumak> Steve132: oh, you clearly have to read up how cloudflare works :)
508 2013-04-28 01:00:29 <sipa> Luke-Jr: elaborate?
509 2013-04-28 01:00:34 <vazakl-> yeah application soft points that are accessible through http...
510 2013-04-28 01:00:49 <Luke-Jr> dig dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org @jun => http://codepad.org/DaN8Z1ln
511 2013-04-28 01:00:51 <vazakl-> POST/GET etc.. i think its pretty rare for a DDoS to be running jaascript
512 2013-04-28 01:00:57 <tumak> Steve132: you cant just "install" tcp anycast locally cause its ... well, uh, anycast
513 2013-04-28 01:01:00 alex2 has left ()
514 2013-04-28 01:01:16 <vazakl-> none of the DDoS tools do javascript.. its all forms or otther things
515 2013-04-28 01:01:20 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i fixed that bug 1 or 2 weeks ago
516 2013-04-28 01:01:26 <sipa> Luke-Jr: you introduced it, btw ;)
517 2013-04-28 01:01:31 <Luke-Jr> I did? how? O.o
518 2013-04-28 01:01:49 <Steve132> tumak: I get it
519 2013-04-28 01:02:04 <vazakl-> just verifying that a decrypted one-time javascriptified token is a DoS opportunity..
520 2013-04-28 01:02:07 <Steve132> thank you for your informative description!
521 2013-04-28 01:02:28 <sipa> Luke-Jr: huh, i can't find the commit that fixed it
522 2013-04-28 01:02:53 [Author] has joined
523 2013-04-28 01:03:02 <Luke-Jr> -CXXFLAGS = -O3 -g0 -march=native -flto
524 2013-04-28 01:03:04 <Luke-Jr> +CXXFLAGS = -O3 -g0 -march=nocona -flto
525 2013-04-28 01:03:05 <Luke-Jr> why? :<
526 2013-04-28 01:03:09 <sipa> Luke-Jr: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin-seeder/commit/a8d711b83280b2b61e3043b4a8b27f9f7530bbe7
527 2013-04-28 01:03:23 <vazakl-> anyway i can see if theres some application hardedning done with javascript-generated tokens... could make it more difficult. but you still have to verify the javascript token and prevent replays
528 2013-04-28 01:03:30 <sipa> Luke-Jr: oh, because somehow my VPS thinks it's i7, but isn't
529 2013-04-28 01:03:46 <Luke-Jr> sipa: so override it locally? :/
530 2013-04-28 01:03:51 <sipa> Luke-Jr: anyway, that shouldn't have ended up in the repository, but i've been sloppy
531 2013-04-28 01:04:09 <gmaxwell> -funroll-loops ftw.
532 2013-04-28 01:04:21 nizeguy has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
533 2013-04-28 01:04:33 witwit has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
534 2013-04-28 01:04:41 witwit has joined
535 2013-04-28 01:05:09 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I object to 78b646d
536 2013-04-28 01:05:34 <Luke-Jr> I think
537 2013-04-28 01:05:40 <sipa> why?
538 2013-04-28 01:05:56 Lolcust has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
539 2013-04-28 01:05:59 <Luke-Jr> spaces are ugly
540 2013-04-28 01:06:18 <sipa> oh, didn't know you could see them? :p
541 2013-04-28 01:06:38 <Luke-Jr> less -S -x 60,68,82,90,98,106,114,122,132,138 dnsseed.dump
542 2013-04-28 01:06:40 <sipa> (slightly more serious: imho they are less ugly, but slightly harder to parse)
543 2013-04-28 01:07:36 <sipa> "meh"
544 2013-04-28 01:08:35 <sipa> could always go for dumping both human-readable and a machine-readable file if that's really needed
545 2013-04-28 01:08:56 <Luke-Jr> I'm parsing with perl anyway. just need to be sure none of the earlier columns can have spaces inside them and I can use \s+
546 2013-04-28 01:09:17 <Luke-Jr> I *think* that looks ok
547 2013-04-28 01:09:45 <sipa> except the version string, nothing has space
548 2013-04-28 01:09:47 <sipa> +for
549 2013-04-28 01:09:50 <sipa> +s
550 2013-04-28 01:10:04 andyh2 has joined
551 2013-04-28 01:11:01 <Luke-Jr> heh, I have -flto commented out locally too XD
552 2013-04-28 01:11:26 <gmaxwell> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/stats/timeline?dates=2013-01-01+to+2013-04-20 < someone in #bitcoin-pricetalk pointed this out
553 2013-04-28 01:11:44 <sipa> i may want to start compressing that file before making it public...
554 2013-04-28 01:11:48 <sipa> 36 MB already
555 2013-04-28 01:11:58 <Luke-Jr> sipa: tabs are smaller..
556 2013-04-28 01:12:12 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i know
557 2013-04-28 01:12:28 <sipa> the next step is outputting html, i guess, and a csv file separately :)
558 2013-04-28 01:12:32 * Luke-Jr updates his server from GCC 4.4 to 4.6
559 2013-04-28 01:12:57 * sipa didn't know GCC was an OS
560 2013-04-28 01:13:25 * Luke-Jr didn't know OS were monolithic and could only be upgraded as a whole :p
561 2013-04-28 01:14:01 <vazakl-> http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=bitcoin&date=today%203-m&cmpt=q
562 2013-04-28 01:14:21 <Luke-Jr> sipa: still getting 0 results when I query my dns seed directly after updating. :p
563 2013-04-28 01:14:47 <sipa> Luke-Jr: what exact command?
564 2013-04-28 01:14:57 <Luke-Jr> /usr/bin/dig dnsseed.bitcoin.dashjr.org @jun
565 2013-04-28 01:15:20 <sipa> strange
566 2013-04-28 01:15:48 <vazakl-> new york and london both saw huge spikes in search volume about bitcoin
567 2013-04-28 01:15:59 <vazakl-> looks like the giant squid is taking notice
568 2013-04-28 01:16:32 <Luke-Jr> [13-04-28 00:53:52] 4331/1146698 available (1141157 tried in 21280s, 4005 new, 1536 active), 0 banned; 2685 DNS requests, 88 db queries
569 2013-04-28 01:16:42 <Luke-Jr> sipa: the 4331 should be nodes it serves to DNS, right?
570 2013-04-28 01:16:48 <sipa> yes
571 2013-04-28 01:17:17 <sipa> we'll urgently need some better banning heuristics, there are way too many useless IPs on the network
572 2013-04-28 01:19:55 Lolcust has joined
573 2013-04-28 01:21:41 volante has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
574 2013-04-28 01:21:50 xeroc has joined
575 2013-04-28 01:22:47 franl has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
576 2013-04-28 01:23:34 <tumak> sipa: the longer node is up, the longer it is likely to stay up?
577 2013-04-28 01:23:52 <sipa> tumak: that's a reasonable assumption, i think
578 2013-04-28 01:24:37 <tumak> also, random probes
579 2013-04-28 01:24:39 <tumak> not sequential
580 2013-04-28 01:26:28 orcik has joined
581 2013-04-28 01:26:46 orcik has quit (Client Quit)
582 2013-04-28 01:26:48 <sipa> tumak: ?
583 2013-04-28 01:29:11 systemParanoid has quit (Quit: Leaving)
584 2013-04-28 01:29:14 mappum has joined
585 2013-04-28 01:29:18 bwen has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
586 2013-04-28 01:30:18 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
587 2013-04-28 01:30:35 <sipa> Luke-Jr: interesting, apparently the incoming query has its 'Z' set
588 2013-04-28 01:30:50 <tumak> is https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/dnsseed being used or is there something better and hip for dns?
589 2013-04-28 01:33:01 <sipa> tumak: github.com/sipa/bitcoin-seeder is used by Luke-Jr and me
590 2013-04-28 01:33:33 <sipa> BlueMatt uses something else, but not that anymore
591 2013-04-28 01:33:51 <BlueMatt> tumak: no, no one uses that, but I do usehttps://github.com/TheBlueMatt/dnsseed-bitcoinj
592 2013-04-28 01:33:55 <Luke-Jr> note: I also add a patch to filter out protocol versions before bloom filtering
593 2013-04-28 01:34:37 <BlueMatt> I also have a minimum protocol version to be served of 70001
594 2013-04-28 01:34:37 <sipa> Luke-Jr: in dns.c, there's a line that checks whether the 'Z' field in the query is 0
595 2013-04-28 01:34:52 <sipa> if i disable that, it works with a local dig
596 2013-04-28 01:35:23 <sipa> the RFC says that it must be zero...
597 2013-04-28 01:36:00 <Luke-Jr> O.o
598 2013-04-28 01:36:12 <sipa> then again, there are at least 10 follow-up RFCs that i haven't read
599 2013-04-28 01:36:57 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
600 2013-04-28 01:38:26 <tumak> lol scan via onion
601 2013-04-28 01:38:30 <tumak> seriously you guys? :)
602 2013-04-28 01:38:56 Lolcust has quit (Quit: Nap time)
603 2013-04-28 01:39:38 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
604 2013-04-28 01:39:52 <fishfish> hi guys, quick q: on the Testnet, i have btcd set to use paytxfee at 0.0005. I can see the trx coming out, flagged with the 0.0005 fee. Yet when I send them in quick succession (around 30 in 30 seconds) , only 2-5 get confirmed. Everything else is stuck in limbo. Is this a testnet issue, is my fee set wrong or am i missing the obvious?
605 2013-04-28 01:40:18 <sipa> tumak: why not?
606 2013-04-28 01:40:32 <sipa> tumak: only for hidden services
607 2013-04-28 01:40:39 <tumak> oh, ok then
608 2013-04-28 01:41:07 <tumak> i thought it was to filter out nodes which ban tor exits for some reason
609 2013-04-28 01:41:45 nova907767 has joined
610 2013-04-28 01:41:59 <tumak> hm
611 2013-04-28 01:42:11 <tumak> not really sure how to mod this thing to run continuously
612 2013-04-28 01:42:22 <tumak> and prefferentially probe nodes with good score
613 2013-04-28 01:43:10 <gmaxwell> fishfish: stuck in limbo for how long?
614 2013-04-28 01:43:24 <gmaxwell> you should retransmit them... I've certantly never seen anything like that otherwise.
615 2013-04-28 01:43:51 <fishfish> gmaxwell: the ones i sent without a fee, 6-7h . The ones with the fee on, 4h
616 2013-04-28 01:44:03 <fishfish> ah well actually - they all just went through
617 2013-04-28 01:44:08 <tumak> sounds like "too new utxo used"
618 2013-04-28 01:44:09 <fishfish> all of them, right now, in one go
619 2013-04-28 01:44:18 <tumak> fishfish: how many have you sent?
620 2013-04-28 01:44:44 <fishfish> from 0.01 btc to 0.30 in increment of .01 , three times
621 2013-04-28 01:44:51 nova90 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
622 2013-04-28 01:44:57 <tumak> no, i mean individual tx count
623 2013-04-28 01:45:05 <tumak> oh
624 2013-04-28 01:45:08 <tumak> thats a lot of txes
625 2013-04-28 01:45:09 <tumak> :)
626 2013-04-28 01:45:24 <fishfish> that's only 90 in 3 batches of 30 at 1 per sec
627 2013-04-28 01:45:33 <tumak> yeah
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675 2013-04-28 01:47:22 <tumak> fishfish: http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/block/000000000269ddf4805dbf7765b5d88ab6c55e2c861d545620677bafbb74fb1b
676 2013-04-28 01:47:25 o3u has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
677 2013-04-28 01:47:26 <tumak> i see all 30
678 2013-04-28 01:47:55 mollison has left ("QUIT :Leaving.")
679 2013-04-28 01:47:56 <tumak> i think the problem is probably "too new"
680 2013-04-28 01:48:03 <sipa> Luke-Jr: fix pushed
681 2013-04-28 01:48:13 <tumak> fishfish: ie you chain the change output into next tx input
682 2013-04-28 01:49:13 <tumak> fishfish: anyways this cant be viewed as anything but spam - why not send just single tx? :)
683 2013-04-28 01:49:21 <tumak> (or better, what it is youre trying to accomplish)
684 2013-04-28 01:49:38 <fishfish> tumax: because was trying to test my script that monitors a wallet, and i was seeing missing trx from the output
685 2013-04-28 01:49:44 <fishfish> so i though, maybe it's a timing thing
686 2013-04-28 01:49:50 <fishfish> that led me to write the script
687 2013-04-28 01:49:56 <tumak> ah
688 2013-04-28 01:50:07 <fishfish> but.. surely 1 trx/second isn't much
689 2013-04-28 01:50:12 <tumak> nah
690 2013-04-28 01:50:13 <fishfish> i mean on the real network
691 2013-04-28 01:50:22 <tumak> i think indeed this is not getting into the mempool most likely
692 2013-04-28 01:50:28 <tumak> due to some spam protection
693 2013-04-28 01:50:31 <fishfish> ah cool
694 2013-04-28 01:50:34 <tumak> which i have no slightest clue about
695 2013-04-28 01:50:59 crank has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
696 2013-04-28 01:51:41 <tumak> fishfish: on real network there is more than 1 tx/s
697 2013-04-28 01:51:50 <tumak> but always from different utxo
698 2013-04-28 01:51:56 <tumak> so i'd try that if problem persists
699 2013-04-28 01:52:11 <tumak> (ie first send to yourself those 0.01 - 0.30)
700 2013-04-28 01:52:21 <tumak> and then send 0.01 0.30 somewhere else
701 2013-04-28 01:52:43 <tumak> the second bulk to somewhere else should succeed in rappid succession
702 2013-04-28 01:54:38 <fishfish> i'm reassured now :)
703 2013-04-28 01:55:15 andyh2 has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
704 2013-04-28 01:56:05 GHs512 has quit ()
705 2013-04-28 01:58:15 atweiden has quit (Quit: Leaving)
706 2013-04-28 02:01:46 eian has quit (Quit: Leaving)
707 2013-04-28 02:04:52 <sipa> BlueMatt: what do you use for actual DNS serving
708 2013-04-28 02:04:53 <sipa> ?
709 2013-04-28 02:07:00 <sipa> ah, you write out a zone file
710 2013-04-28 02:16:23 <vazakl-> bitcoin is awesome!
711 2013-04-28 02:17:06 jaequery has joined
712 2013-04-28 02:18:17 jaequery has quit (Client Quit)
713 2013-04-28 02:18:37 <BlueMatt> sipa: BIND
714 2013-04-28 02:18:41 <BlueMatt> sipa: (+ slaves)
715 2013-04-28 02:19:52 o3u has joined
716 2013-04-28 02:19:56 * Luke-Jr ponders if there's a real alternative to BIND
717 2013-04-28 02:20:03 <Luke-Jr> ideally free software..
718 2013-04-28 02:20:08 <BlueMatt> powerdns does a reasonable job
719 2013-04-28 02:20:36 Lolcust has joined
720 2013-04-28 02:21:15 <sipa> BlueMatt: hmm, i get around 12 QPS on my dns seed, seems you update every two minutes, so that would mean 1440 queries that get the same result
721 2013-04-28 02:21:29 ikea_meatballs has joined
722 2013-04-28 02:21:33 <sipa> probably reasonable still
723 2013-04-28 02:21:45 <BlueMatt> actually, Im pretty seriously considering decreasing it
724 2013-04-28 02:22:01 <sipa> decreasing the frequency or the interval?
725 2013-04-28 02:22:04 <BlueMatt> a week or so ago I saw 512 connection when I placed a node in the dnsseed manually for 4 minutes
726 2013-04-28 02:22:18 <sipa> ow
727 2013-04-28 02:22:43 * BlueMatt blames bitcoinj as the connections died very quickly, but I need to patch my node to log those
728 2013-04-28 02:23:04 <BlueMatt> it wasnt nearly as bad tonight when I tested though
729 2013-04-28 02:23:22 <HM> http://techcrunch.com/2013/03/26/amazon-web-services-launches-cloudhsm-a-dedicated-hardware-security-appliance-for-managing-cryptographic-keys/
730 2013-04-28 02:24:19 <HM> Get your possibly emulated HSMs on the other side of the world, roll up, roll up
731 2013-04-28 02:25:09 Lolcust has quit (Client Quit)
732 2013-04-28 02:25:49 Lolcust has joined
733 2013-04-28 02:25:56 andyh2 has joined
734 2013-04-28 02:28:50 <vazakl-> thats pretty cool HM
735 2013-04-28 02:29:49 moroz has joined
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738 2013-04-28 02:31:17 cornfeedhobo has joined
739 2013-04-28 02:31:33 <cornfeedhobo> soo... what does it take to get coins for the test network?
740 2013-04-28 02:33:21 <lianj> cornfeedhobo: http://tpfaucet.appspot.com/
741 2013-04-28 02:33:23 <cornfeedhobo> lol nvm
742 2013-04-28 02:33:32 <cornfeedhobo> ya sorry =P
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782 2013-04-28 03:40:10 Siskiyou has joined
783 2013-04-28 03:40:50 <bytecoin> jgarzik
784 2013-04-28 03:40:51 <bytecoin> http://pastebin.com/kvTU27mN
785 2013-04-28 03:41:16 <bytecoin> the dns lookup works now
786 2013-04-28 03:44:21 <bytecoin> and new altered manual for pico (slight diff set )
787 2013-04-28 03:46:59 volante has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
788 2013-04-28 03:49:00 rushed has joined
789 2013-04-28 03:49:54 TwilightSparklee has joined
790 2013-04-28 03:50:32 <bytecoin> what is : PICOCOIN_PASSPHRASE environment jgarzik ?
791 2013-04-28 03:50:47 <bytecoin> (module wallet.c)
792 2013-04-28 03:50:53 <bytecoin> what is it set too?
793 2013-04-28 03:53:49 fishfish_ has joined
794 2013-04-28 03:53:50 <bytecoin> PICOCOIN_PASSPHRASE is used in aes_init? what do I set this value too?
795 2013-04-28 03:56:44 <bytecoin> does anyone know a REST-full service where i can query GPS location if I have only IP ?
796 2013-04-28 03:56:52 <bytecoin> (free if possible_
797 2013-04-28 03:56:54 <bytecoin> )
798 2013-04-28 03:57:13 fishfish has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
799 2013-04-28 03:58:22 Darin has quit (Disconnected by services)
800 2013-04-28 03:58:30 <Luke-Jr> bytecoin: IP and GPS are unrelated..
801 2013-04-28 03:58:59 Darin_ has joined
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804 2013-04-28 04:02:19 <bytecoin> is not the issue Luke-Jr ,
805 2013-04-28 04:02:40 <bytecoin> do you know of a free service?
806 2013-04-28 04:02:52 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
807 2013-04-28 04:03:01 [7] has joined
808 2013-04-28 04:04:00 <bytecoin> (my question)
809 2013-04-28 04:04:11 Lolcust has joined
810 2013-04-28 04:04:25 toffoo has joined
811 2013-04-28 04:04:25 <Luke-Jr> bytecoin: GPS is a free service..
812 2013-04-28 04:04:46 <bytecoin> maybe i dont explain clearly
813 2013-04-28 04:05:20 <bytecoin> I need service that give me global coordinates for an ip-address
814 2013-04-28 04:06:37 volante has quit (Quit: Leaving)
815 2013-04-28 04:06:54 <Luke-Jr> bytecoin: no such thing exists, nor is it really even possible; the closest you'll get is a city
816 2013-04-28 04:07:46 <bytecoin> thats what i want
817 2013-04-28 04:07:56 <richcollins> Is there a way to find out when bitcoind knows about a tx?
818 2013-04-28 04:08:18 <richcollins> before it makes it into a block
819 2013-04-28 04:08:57 <bytecoin> Luke-jr, is funny how you think,
820 2013-04-28 04:09:27 <bytecoin> you thought i was looking for nanometer resolution with regard to global coordinates
821 2013-04-28 04:09:28 <Luke-Jr> you say coordinates, I think you mean coordinates. is that really so funny?
822 2013-04-28 04:09:42 <bytecoin> maybe something close to the planck length scale
823 2013-04-28 04:10:10 <Luke-Jr> http://dev.maxmind.com/geoip
824 2013-04-28 04:10:16 <bytecoin> yah, I want to know if an ip is located in New York or Moscow
825 2013-04-28 04:10:25 <bytecoin> not possible?
826 2013-04-28 04:10:36 <Luke-Jr> see link
827 2013-04-28 04:11:19 <bytecoin> that took a long time
828 2013-04-28 04:11:27 <bytecoin> thanks Luke-Jr
829 2013-04-28 04:11:46 <bytecoin> not free, maybe I will do a spider on "ip-locater"
830 2013-04-28 04:12:03 <bytecoin> unbelievable
831 2013-04-28 04:12:21 bytecoin has left ()
832 2013-04-28 04:14:01 peddamat has joined
833 2013-04-28 04:14:22 bytecoin has joined
834 2013-04-28 04:14:49 <bytecoin> ;;ticker
835 2013-04-28 04:14:50 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 130.51000, Best ask: 130.74998, Bid-ask spread: 0.23998, Last trade: 130.50001, 24 hour volume: 60245.80927083, 24 hour low: 122.71000, 24 hour high: 139.88000, 24 hour vwap: 130.68632
836 2013-04-28 04:15:05 <Luke-Jr> bytecoin: not free how? "The GeoLite databases are distributed under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License."
837 2013-04-28 04:15:07 Siskiyou has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
838 2013-04-28 04:15:22 <bytecoin> read your link
839 2013-04-28 04:15:34 <Luke-Jr> I use it free
840 2013-04-28 04:15:43 <tumak> geolite city is free
841 2013-04-28 04:15:51 <bytecoin> your link
842 2013-04-28 04:16:18 <tumak> oh gee bytecoin, click around for a bit
843 2013-04-28 04:16:56 FabianB has joined
844 2013-04-28 04:16:56 FabianB has quit (Changing host)
845 2013-04-28 04:16:56 FabianB has joined
846 2013-04-28 04:17:02 <bytecoin> Luke-Jr: your link-> http://dev.maxmind.com/geoip/
847 2013-04-28 04:17:17 <tumak> "mommy, i wanna be spoonfed"
848 2013-04-28 04:17:21 <tumak> mommmyyy
849 2013-04-28 04:17:30 <bytecoin> quote "..We provide a webservice, subscription-based downloadable databases, and free downloadable databases. ..."
850 2013-04-28 04:17:31 FabianB_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
851 2013-04-28 04:17:57 <bytecoin> subscription based = pay for it
852 2013-04-28 04:18:20 <Luke-Jr> free downloadable databases = don't
853 2013-04-28 04:18:25 * Luke-Jr is done
854 2013-04-28 04:18:38 <tumak> Luke-Jr you had to spoil it
855 2013-04-28 04:18:55 <tumak> bytecoin: please continue throwing tantrums you want the direct link to the free db
856 2013-04-28 04:19:16 <bytecoin> yawn
857 2013-04-28 04:19:30 <bytecoin> he tumak, how are you?
858 2013-04-28 04:19:44 <bytecoin> I dont want to download a whole db locally
859 2013-04-28 04:19:51 <bytecoin> just use a nice service online
860 2013-04-28 04:20:00 <tumak> oh
861 2013-04-28 04:20:03 <bytecoin> but those are not free, capishe?
862 2013-04-28 04:20:30 <bytecoin> oh
863 2013-04-28 04:20:40 <tumak> well, then you can get gps precision
864 2013-04-28 04:20:55 <bytecoin> Luke-Jr: says its not possible
865 2013-04-28 04:20:57 <bytecoin> lol
866 2013-04-28 04:21:05 <bytecoin> (GPS precision)
867 2013-04-28 04:21:12 <tumak> not via geoip
868 2013-04-28 04:21:15 <bytecoin> but please discuss it with him
869 2013-04-28 04:21:27 <tumak> bytecoin is such a loveable character
870 2013-04-28 04:21:37 <bytecoin> i am not a timewaster
871 2013-04-28 04:21:38 <tumak> bytecoin: please beg more for gps precision
872 2013-04-28 04:21:53 <bytecoin> talk to Luke-jr
873 2013-04-28 04:22:14 <tumak> 05:34 < bytecoin> does anyone know a REST-full service where i can query GPS location if I have only IP ?
874 2013-04-28 04:22:17 <tumak> you asked for it
875 2013-04-28 04:22:26 <tumak> Luke-Jr just tried to help
876 2013-04-28 04:22:30 <tumak> and you were mean to him
877 2013-04-28 04:22:34 <tumak> so apologize to him
878 2013-04-28 04:22:36 <bytecoin> he said it was not possible
879 2013-04-28 04:22:38 <tumak> and i'll give you gps service
880 2013-04-28 04:22:48 <bytecoin> so if you think it is possible please discuss with him
881 2013-04-28 04:22:50 <tumak> 05:41 < Luke-Jr> bytecoin: GPS is a free service..
882 2013-04-28 04:23:01 <bytecoin> shit i didnt know that
883 2013-04-28 04:23:10 <bytecoin> lol
884 2013-04-28 04:23:17 X-Scale has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
885 2013-04-28 04:23:33 <tumak> stop talking back and apologize already
886 2013-04-28 04:23:43 <tumak> i assume you need gps rest, and not just waste everyones time
887 2013-04-28 04:23:43 dust-otc has joined
888 2013-04-28 04:23:54 <bytecoin> how is making up stuff in the moment helpfull tomak?
889 2013-04-28 04:24:10 <bytecoin> why assume? just ask if something is not clear
890 2013-04-28 04:25:00 <tumak> such a naughty boy
891 2013-04-28 04:25:18 savetheinternet has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
892 2013-04-28 04:25:21 <bytecoin> wot?
893 2013-04-28 04:25:33 <bytecoin> lol,..,
894 2013-04-28 04:26:10 <tumak> but i'm in a good mood
895 2013-04-28 04:26:12 <tumak> so here's a hint
896 2013-04-28 04:26:13 <tumak> You can use up to 100 queries per day free of charge
897 2013-04-28 04:26:25 <bytecoin> no hints please, I am reading a book
898 2013-04-28 04:26:35 <tumak> aww
899 2013-04-28 04:26:39 <tumak> sorry to spoil it
900 2013-04-28 04:26:56 <bytecoin> spoil where?
901 2013-04-28 04:27:04 <tumak> you are
902 2013-04-28 04:27:16 <bytecoin> you mean tomorrow?
903 2013-04-28 04:27:33 <tumak> only within the limits of dadaism
904 2013-04-28 04:27:52 <bytecoin> in your parents basement?
905 2013-04-28 04:28:09 <tumak> i'm your parent
906 2013-04-28 04:28:27 <tumak> (here you go, talking back again)
907 2013-04-28 04:28:55 <bytecoin> i dont even know what that is
908 2013-04-28 04:28:59 <tumak> anyways, good luck with google geo api and all
909 2013-04-28 04:29:01 <bytecoin> something american kids do?
910 2013-04-28 04:29:41 <bytecoin> I guess, you got smacked alot for disrespecting hierarchy
911 2013-04-28 04:30:35 <copumpkin> o.O
912 2013-04-28 04:31:31 <bytecoin> yeah i know,.., the shut-up-and-listed vibe is really big with tokamuk
913 2013-04-28 04:32:41 owowo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
914 2013-04-28 04:33:05 <bytecoin> tunak, stop spamming me in PM,.., stalking behavior i not like
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936 2013-04-28 04:48:25 <bytecoin> tumak, stop pm-ing me please, i dont like it
937 2013-04-28 04:49:07 <gmaxwell> tumak: chill out, I don't know what you're doing but if people are complaining stop.
938 2013-04-28 04:49:24 <bytecoin> admins, how do you stop someone from stalking?
939 2013-04-28 04:50:04 <gmaxwell> in almost all clients you can type /ignore <username> and you won't see anything more from them.
940 2013-04-28 04:50:22 <bytecoin> ok, let me try
941 2013-04-28 04:50:43 <bytecoin> ignored person will see my postings?
942 2013-04-28 04:51:00 <bytecoin> is it a 2 way block?
943 2013-04-28 04:51:14 <gonffen> it's local, so it's just on your client
944 2013-04-28 04:52:13 <bytecoin> i am keeping records, i am pretty sure this violates freenode policy
945 2013-04-28 04:52:16 <bytecoin> anyway...
946 2013-04-28 04:52:35 <bytecoin> I wish i could chat with jgarzik on picocoin,
947 2013-04-28 04:52:49 <bytecoin> whats the timezone on his side of the pond?
948 2013-04-28 04:53:08 <gmaxwell> Jeff is usually in US/eastern time.
949 2013-04-28 04:53:40 wizkid057 has joined
950 2013-04-28 04:53:57 <gmaxwell> (it's 00:31 there now)
951 2013-04-28 04:54:00 <jgarzik> bytecoin: ask questions with "jgarzik" in the string somewhere, and they will get highlighted and answered eventually :)
952 2013-04-28 04:54:15 <jgarzik> just keep a big scrollback, and wait for an answer, even if next day ;p
953 2013-04-28 04:55:08 <bytecoin> jgarzik, what is this environment variable getenv("PICOCOIN_PASSPHRASE");
954 2013-04-28 04:55:27 <jgarzik> bytecoin: wallet encryption key
955 2013-04-28 04:55:29 <bytecoin> jgarzik, in module wallet.c
956 2013-04-28 04:55:46 <jgarzik> bytecoin: note, that is poor security (though better than none)
957 2013-04-28 04:56:01 <bytecoin> its used in your function aes_init
958 2013-04-28 04:56:16 <bytecoin> what passphrase should i use, just choose one?
959 2013-04-28 04:57:06 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: hey, asicminer is having another auction: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=189248
960 2013-04-28 04:57:10 grau has joined
961 2013-04-28 04:57:20 <jgarzik> bytecoin: whatever passphrase you want to use to secure your wallet
962 2013-04-28 04:57:22 <Diablo-D3> someone copypasta that for jgarzik I think he has me on ignore
963 2013-04-28 04:57:37 <jgarzik> Diablo-D3: not on /ignore
964 2013-04-28 04:57:46 <Diablo-D3> kay
965 2013-04-28 04:57:55 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: Im being an asshole and driving up bids ;)
966 2013-04-28 04:59:55 HM has joined
967 2013-04-28 04:59:56 <bytecoin> jgarzik, i see it, its only used in load_wallet and save_wallet,.., ok thanks))
968 2013-04-28 05:00:14 <jgarzik> bytecoin: Yes. The entire wallet is encrypted.
969 2013-04-28 05:00:16 <bytecoin> typo" store_wallet"
970 2013-04-28 05:00:40 <bytecoin> ok, ok, thanks,
971 2013-04-28 05:02:51 FredEE has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
972 2013-04-28 05:02:53 <bytecoin> stupid noob question,..., where can if find the wallet binary file description
973 2013-04-28 05:03:21 zer0def has quit (Quit: Quit:)
974 2013-04-28 05:04:19 HM has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
975 2013-04-28 05:04:59 FredEE has joined
976 2013-04-28 05:05:26 <bytecoin> jgarzik, my work on picocoin, check out the altered (sliggtly) cmd options, it all uses my own glib replacement,
977 2013-04-28 05:05:28 <bytecoin> http://pastebin.com/kvTU27mN
978 2013-04-28 05:05:34 HM has joined
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981 2013-04-28 05:07:29 <Luke-Jr> does picocoin depend on glib? -.-
982 2013-04-28 05:08:59 stainrat has joined
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984 2013-04-28 05:13:52 crank has joined
985 2013-04-28 05:15:42 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: yes :(
986 2013-04-28 05:17:12 <Luke-Jr> bah
987 2013-04-28 05:17:58 * Luke-Jr wonders when/if MagicalTux will publish QBitcoin finally :x
988 2013-04-28 05:18:37 <Diablo-D3> hes too busy being rich
989 2013-04-28 05:20:19 <bytecoin> BlueMatt working on removing glib
990 2013-04-28 05:20:37 <BlueMatt> bytecoin: the world thanks you
991 2013-04-28 05:21:11 <bytecoin> I accept bitcoin donations as thanks)))
992 2013-04-28 05:21:26 <BlueMatt> if only I had MagicalTux's money
993 2013-04-28 05:21:32 <BlueMatt> :P
994 2013-04-28 05:21:38 <bytecoin> who is this MagicalTux ?
995 2013-04-28 05:21:44 <BlueMatt> owner of mtgox
996 2013-04-28 05:21:49 <bytecoin> never heard of him
997 2013-04-28 05:21:50 <jgarzik> Removing GLib is fine, but seems like a lot of wasted effort
998 2013-04-28 05:21:52 <bytecoin> aaaah
999 2013-04-28 05:22:14 <bytecoin> jgarzik, maybe, but i hate dependencies,
1000 2013-04-28 05:22:18 <jgarzik> you: reinvent hash tables. reinvent linked lists. reinvent byte swapping. reinvent the string class.
1001 2013-04-28 05:22:24 <jgarzik> it's pure code duplication
1002 2013-04-28 05:22:33 <bytecoin> almost done though
1003 2013-04-28 05:22:39 <bytecoin> hash tables, linked list
1004 2013-04-28 05:22:46 <bytecoin> String class not done yet
1005 2013-04-28 05:22:57 <tumak> jgarzik: at least you didnt put gobject in there
1006 2013-04-28 05:23:00 <tumak> or did you?
1007 2013-04-28 05:23:09 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (away!~PiZZaMaN2@unaffiliated/pizzaman2k|Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1008 2013-04-28 05:23:11 <jgarzik> Then, the duplicated code must be bug-fixed and maintained, including all portability glue
1009 2013-04-28 05:23:20 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
1010 2013-04-28 05:23:21 <jgarzik> tumak: gobject is not needed or used
1011 2013-04-28 05:23:27 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: theres nothing wrong with reinventing things sometimes
1012 2013-04-28 05:23:46 <jgarzik> how many times does the hash table need to be reinvented? This is not CS 201.
1013 2013-04-28 05:23:52 <bytecoin> lol
1014 2013-04-28 05:23:58 <bytecoin> only once
1015 2013-04-28 05:24:10 <bytecoin> what the maintaining issue, i dont see it
1016 2013-04-28 05:24:25 <bytecoin> once you have something good, with reagrd to hashtables dont change it
1017 2013-04-28 05:24:39 <tumak> jgarzik: linked lists are bad example though, #include <sys/queue.h> :)
1018 2013-04-28 05:25:08 <jgarzik> bytecoin: You've clearly never done big project open source software maintenance then :)
1019 2013-04-28 05:25:09 <bytecoin> for windows aswell?
1020 2013-04-28 05:25:11 <grau> I doubt it is the right aim to remove dependencies
1021 2013-04-28 05:25:21 <grau> The effort should rather be spent on tests
1022 2013-04-28 05:25:26 <jgarzik> +1
1023 2013-04-28 05:25:46 <jgarzik> GLib is already ported to Windows, works great there.
1024 2013-04-28 05:25:49 <tumak> i think getting rid of openssl in picocoin would be a noble endeavor though
1025 2013-04-28 05:25:55 <bytecoin> jgarzik, assuming is a culture here, funny
1026 2013-04-28 05:26:07 <bytecoin> haha
1027 2013-04-28 05:26:08 <tumak> ber encoding is fairly simple and ecc code separated already
1028 2013-04-28 05:26:20 <bytecoin> openssl and glib, both need to go
1029 2013-04-28 05:26:25 execut3 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1030 2013-04-28 05:26:28 <tumak> its close to impossible to compile libcrypt without being it a behemoth
1031 2013-04-28 05:26:38 <tumak> *libcrypto
1032 2013-04-28 05:26:40 <jgarzik> tumak: switching openssl implies reinventing bignum
1033 2013-04-28 05:26:46 <tumak> jgarzik: indeed
1034 2013-04-28 05:26:51 <jgarzik> it's not just crypto or ECDSA
1035 2013-04-28 05:27:07 <bytecoin> haha, well, i disagree
1036 2013-04-28 05:27:32 <bytecoin> openssl has to be phased out
1037 2013-04-28 05:27:41 <bytecoin> eventually gone
1038 2013-04-28 05:27:42 <jgarzik> disagree, with which part? By definition, dropping OpenSSL requires implementing your own bignum, or linking another dependency with same functionality.
1039 2013-04-28 05:28:06 <tumak> jgarzik: there are fairly contained bn libs imho
1040 2013-04-28 05:28:08 <bytecoin> bignum is not a big deal
1041 2013-04-28 05:28:08 <grau> We might achive the same by pre-parsing input to openssl eventually
1042 2013-04-28 05:28:10 <jgarzik> You also need to match bug-for-bug right now with OpenSSL
1043 2013-04-28 05:28:16 <BlueMatt> using non-OpenSSL for ECDSA would be nice, though the bignum stuff...meh doesnt matter what implementation is used
1044 2013-04-28 05:28:23 <tumak> and for secp256k1 code hal finneys coude would make sense
1045 2013-04-28 05:28:31 <BlueMatt> (obviously fork risk stuff dealt with)
1046 2013-04-28 05:28:33 <bytecoin> @BLueMatt agree
1047 2013-04-28 05:29:05 <bytecoin> openssl is just bloated
1048 2013-04-28 05:29:12 <BlueMatt> what?
1049 2013-04-28 05:29:13 <BlueMatt> not really
1050 2013-04-28 05:29:21 <jgarzik> ...and if you use OpenSSL for bignum, then there is no point in dropping the other OpenSSL uses
1051 2013-04-28 05:29:22 <tumak> BlueMatt: vanitygen has like 1k loc bignum :)
1052 2013-04-28 05:29:25 <tumak> in ocl
1053 2013-04-28 05:29:45 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: except for <jgarzik> You also need to match bug-for-bug right now with OpenSSL
1054 2013-04-28 05:30:12 <bytecoin> openssl has bugs?
1055 2013-04-28 05:30:14 <bytecoin> )
1056 2013-04-28 05:30:16 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: which is the real reason to drop openssl for ecdsa, its already on every system in the world so its convenient, but its a pita for alt implementations
1057 2013-04-28 05:30:19 paracyst has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1058 2013-04-28 05:30:39 <grau> BlueMatt: that is why I think parsing input of openssl to restrict it to "valid" formats would be probably sufficient
1059 2013-04-28 05:31:08 <BlueMatt> grau: yes, that should be done, as to whether we really need to drop openssl itself...meh probably not
1060 2013-04-28 05:31:34 <tumak> grau: you mean like, hardcode asn.1 template and call it a day?
1061 2013-04-28 05:31:46 <Luke-Jr> it'd be nice if bitcoind could be compiled with other bignum/EC/etc libraries ;)
1062 2013-04-28 05:31:47 enmaku2 is now known as enmaku
1063 2013-04-28 05:32:07 <grau> tumuk: meybe more or less
1064 2013-04-28 05:32:21 <Luke-Jr> testing each variant in an AND and specially logging any disagreements..
1065 2013-04-28 05:32:21 <bytecoin> more less then maybe
1066 2013-04-28 05:33:01 <tumak> not sure if asn1 bers appear all the same across blockchain
1067 2013-04-28 05:33:17 <BlueMatt> they dont
1068 2013-04-28 05:33:33 <grau> tumak: restriction could be a soft fork appllied after a height.
1069 2013-04-28 05:33:57 <bytecoin> anyway jgarzik,.., the C code is simple and straghtforward (as is most C) so it gives me oppertunity to know in detail about bitcoin and altcoins
1070 2013-04-28 05:34:03 <bytecoin> potentially
1071 2013-04-28 05:34:33 <tumak> grau: update path mayhem though :(
1072 2013-04-28 05:34:46 <BlueMatt> we've softforked before
1073 2013-04-28 05:34:50 <tumak> ensuring all pools have proper set of openssl whenever changes are
1074 2013-04-28 05:34:58 <tumak> alas, map what is different across openssl versions
1075 2013-04-28 05:35:38 <grau> tumak: no, restriction should hide differences to the simplest common
1076 2013-04-28 05:36:03 <tumak> hmm, finding the lowest common denominator then
1077 2013-04-28 05:36:08 <grau> it is nor reallye about openssl diff but in general diff of crypto libs
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1079 2013-04-28 05:36:40 <bytecoin> crypto libs have their own tests
1080 2013-04-28 05:36:55 <bytecoin> easy to check if it meats standard well known cyphers
1081 2013-04-28 05:36:56 <grau> tumak: yes, there is no benefit of having flawors of this in the blockhain
1082 2013-04-28 05:37:00 <tumak> grau: uh, there was ever something different than openssl used :)
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1085 2013-04-28 05:38:04 <grau> eg. BitcoinJ uses spongy castle, bits of proof uses bouncy casle
1086 2013-04-28 05:38:30 <tumak> oh
1087 2013-04-28 05:38:32 <BlueMatt> yes, and bitcoinj has gotten it "wrong" before thanks to openssl's loose spec interpretation
1088 2013-04-28 05:38:33 <tumak> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=8392.0
1089 2013-04-28 05:38:41 <tumak> hmm
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1094 2013-04-28 05:43:01 <tumak> grau: incidentally, 0.8.2 appears it will enforce DER
1095 2013-04-28 05:43:08 <tumak> (soft, no mempool accept)
1096 2013-04-28 05:43:22 <grau> great
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1110 2013-04-28 06:04:34 <da2ce7> nexus.bitcoinj.org is down.
1111 2013-04-28 06:04:42 mappum has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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1113 2013-04-28 06:04:49 <da2ce7> *or very close to being down.
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1159 2013-04-28 07:03:32 <anddam> hi, I'm experiencing https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2405 on osx 10.7, bt-qt 0.8.1 (IIRC)
1160 2013-04-28 07:04:21 <anddam> the comments suggest a possible fix from g.andresen at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=154516.msg1665186#msg1665186 but I can only find the tidydir script there (that I already ran when I switched from 0.7)
1161 2013-04-28 07:04:35 <anddam> any hint about the reason of the bug?
1162 2013-04-28 07:06:03 Steve132 has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1163 2013-04-28 07:06:10 <anddam> should I wipe the chain and restart? my wallet is backed up, or should be at least if my script isn't failing me
1164 2013-04-28 07:06:28 <anddam> still not being able to start Qt GUI is annoying
1165 2013-04-28 07:06:30 Steve132 has joined
1166 2013-04-28 07:06:36 <anddam> any hint appreciated
1167 2013-04-28 07:07:45 <gmaxwell> anddam: you never have to wipe the chain. A reindex will unwedge it, but if you're not in a rush to use it, someone might want to have you try something else.
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1169 2013-04-28 07:09:18 <anddam> gmaxwell: I'm not in a hurry, I confirm moving the data directory let GUI correctly start
1170 2013-04-28 07:10:07 <anddam> gmaxwell: "Starting with -reindex will probably work just as well." https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2426
1171 2013-04-28 07:11:06 <anddam> the Qt GUI doesn't sport a cli command, or I cannot see it
1172 2013-04-28 07:12:00 Steve132 has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1173 2013-04-28 07:12:16 <anddam> started reindexing
1174 2013-04-28 07:12:19 <anddam> GUI started
1175 2013-04-28 07:12:25 Steve132 has joined
1176 2013-04-28 07:12:53 <anddam> I mean ./BitCoin-Qt -reindex
1177 2013-04-28 07:13:20 <anddam> gmaxwell: was that a chain corruption?
1178 2013-04-28 07:13:28 <anddam> or its index
1179 2013-04-28 07:14:03 Guest78233 has joined
1180 2013-04-28 07:16:42 <anddam> http://bitcoin.org/en/vocabulary <-- nice, I always seem to be missing a term on #bitcoin*
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1192 2013-04-28 07:41:06 <anddam> wait, my balance is now 0,00116629 !
1193 2013-04-28 07:41:22 <anddam> I'm pretty sure it was 0,00116630 last time ;-)
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1196 2013-04-28 07:45:24 <Luke-Jr> anddam: note that BTC is always period for decimal point, not comma
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1202 2013-04-28 07:56:26 <digitalmagus> Luke-Jr: Good luck enforcing that in European countries
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1205 2013-04-28 07:58:12 <anddam> yep, that's just an habit
1206 2013-04-28 07:59:15 <anddam> digitalmagus: I'd happily trade that for the adoption of metric system
1207 2013-04-28 07:59:56 <anddam> mine was just a joke, btw
1208 2013-04-28 08:00:19 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1209 2013-04-28 08:00:52 <anddam> any insight about the "Assertion failed: (pfork != NULL)" issue I was asking about? what could the cause be?
1210 2013-04-28 08:01:57 <Luke-Jr> yeah, SI/metric sucks
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1220 2013-04-28 08:10:28 <anddam> Luke-Jr: I appreciate the humor
1221 2013-04-28 08:10:59 <Luke-Jr> what humour?
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1223 2013-04-28 08:12:55 <anddam> "Luke-Jr | yeah, SI/metric sucks" <-- brilliant comedy
1224 2013-04-28 08:13:09 <Luke-Jr> well it does
1225 2013-04-28 08:13:39 debianto1user has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1226 2013-04-28 08:13:54 <anddam> about my chain issue can I actively do something to avoid that in future?
1227 2013-04-28 08:14:19 <anddam> or better is there some known action that could have caused that?
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1242 2013-04-28 08:46:44 <bytecoin> jgarzik
1243 2013-04-28 08:47:21 <bytecoin> jgarzik, thanks for the condescending remark, have a nice day
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1256 2013-04-28 09:12:36 <Burbank33> Hello everyone, I got a question: I want to experiment with the locktime feature on the testnet3. I use bitcoin-python for this. My problem is, that I don't know how to serialize a transaction after having de-serialized and modified it. Can anyone give me a hint?
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1259 2013-04-28 09:15:19 <wumpus> createrawtransaction maybe?
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1262 2013-04-28 09:16:58 <Burbank33> I used createrawtransaction to get the transaction in the first place, but I decoded it to change the sequence number and timelock. I cannot use createrawtrancaction for modified transactions as it only accepts unspent txs and destination addresses
1263 2013-04-28 09:19:09 <michagogo> From a performance standpoint, if I add a bunch of addnode entries in bitcoin.conf, will that slow things down?
1264 2013-04-28 09:19:39 <wumpus> depends on the nodes that you add
1265 2013-04-28 09:20:01 <wumpus> but generally, no
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1267 2013-04-28 09:22:08 <Diablo-D3> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DdfLtOrBPU&list=PLA9B8CDA6BA83F981
1268 2013-04-28 09:23:22 <Burbank33> I just checked the API calls list of bitcoind
1269 2013-04-28 09:23:56 <Burbank33> looks like they dont have such a function either. If you guys create raw transactions, do you always manipulate the serialized binary data?
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1290 2013-04-28 09:39:10 <michagogo> Hmm, maybe I misunderstood. I thought that if I had, say, 30 addnode=<address> lines in bitcoin.conf I'd end up with 30 connections
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1292 2013-04-28 09:43:40 <wumpus> I'm not sure whether the addnode connections count towards the max number of outgoing connections
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1295 2013-04-28 09:46:46 <cut> michagogo: you want connect=
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1297 2013-04-28 09:49:18 <michagogo> cut: Won't that limit it to *only* those nodes?
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1299 2013-04-28 09:49:55 <cut> yes, it will limit to 30 connections
1300 2013-04-28 09:51:18 <michagogo> I don't want to say "only ever connect to these nodes"
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1326 2013-04-28 10:51:05 __CodingNinja has joined
1327 2013-04-28 10:51:11 <__CodingNinja> hello all!
1328 2013-04-28 10:51:47 <__CodingNinja> I have a few technical questions regarding bitcoin, can any one help?
1329 2013-04-28 10:53:28 <michagogo> __CodingNinja: Probably someone can. Don't ask to ask, just ask.
1330 2013-04-28 10:53:57 <__CodingNinja> When a transaction is "made", my understanding is that it is just an "intention" that is broadcast to all nodes, using PGP, but how it this intention verified?
1331 2013-04-28 10:54:29 <jaakkos> no PGP involved
1332 2013-04-28 10:54:32 Styles has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1333 2013-04-28 10:54:48 <__CodingNinja> ok, but addresses have a public key and a private key, so PGP like?
1334 2013-04-28 10:55:36 <jaakkos> the transaction is first verified by all nodes who participate in the broadcast, ie. the tx must have the proper signature to access the funds it redeems
1335 2013-04-28 10:55:53 <jaakkos> but to actually considered as "happened", the transaction needs to be included in a block by a miner
1336 2013-04-28 10:55:58 <jaakkos> +be
1337 2013-04-28 10:56:35 <michagogo> Any node that it gets broadcast to will (in general, if it follows all the rules) relay the tx
1338 2013-04-28 10:56:40 ovidiusoft has joined
1339 2013-04-28 10:56:55 <michagogo> That tx will make its way through the network to one or more miners
1340 2013-04-28 10:57:09 <__CodingNinja> sorry what is tx?
1341 2013-04-28 10:57:21 <michagogo> tx == transaction
1342 2013-04-28 10:57:34 <michagogo> When a miner includes that transaction in a block, and subsequently solves that block, it becomes part of the blockchain
1343 2013-04-28 10:57:59 <__CodingNinja> can't a client just randomly make up fake tx and broadcast it?
1344 2013-04-28 10:58:11 <wumpus> it can, but everyone will ignore it
1345 2013-04-28 10:58:44 <michagogo> Yeah, a client can broadcast whatever it wants
1346 2013-04-28 10:59:11 <michagogo> That means exactly nothing if the transaction isn't valid according to the rules that the peers follow
1347 2013-04-28 10:59:37 <__CodingNinja> what I'm trying to understand is how this transaction is verified, so yo have an address (A1) and another (A2) we know the public address, the nodes must contact surely both in order to verify the address? I'm confused
1348 2013-04-28 11:00:23 <michagogo> __CodingNinja: No, they don't.
1349 2013-04-28 11:00:31 <michagogo> Alice wants to send Bob a bitcoin
1350 2013-04-28 11:00:40 <michagogo> Bob generates an address and gives it to Alice
1351 2013-04-28 11:01:08 <michagogo> Alice can verify that the address is a valid bitcoin address according to the address format, checksums, whatever it is
1352 2013-04-28 11:01:48 <__CodingNinja> with you so far
1353 2013-04-28 11:02:51 <michagogo> Alice makes a transaction saying something along the lines of "take the output of transaction x and use it as an input, and create an output that can be spent by address y"
1354 2013-04-28 11:03:04 <michagogo> where transaction x is a bitcoin someone sent her in the past
1355 2013-04-28 11:03:14 <michagogo> and address y is the address Bob gave her
1356 2013-04-28 11:03:40 <__CodingNinja> ah yes, and it has to be a valid prior transaction in the chain of transactions?
1357 2013-04-28 11:03:43 <michagogo> She signs that with the private key corresponding to the address that the output of transaction x specified
1358 2013-04-28 11:03:46 <michagogo> Correct
1359 2013-04-28 11:04:09 <__CodingNinja> please go on
1360 2013-04-28 11:04:26 <michagogo> So when Alice broadcasts that transaction, the nodes she broadcasts it to will check, among other things, that transaction x exists and hasn't been spent
1361 2013-04-28 11:07:25 <__CodingNinja> ok, when you say Alice "signs with the private key", is this Alice's private key?
1362 2013-04-28 11:07:43 <michagogo> Yes
1363 2013-04-28 11:08:03 <michagogo> Specifically, the private key of the address that that bitcoin was previously sent to
1364 2013-04-28 11:08:37 <michagogo> (technically, the address for the output that she's spending)
1365 2013-04-28 11:09:06 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1366 2013-04-28 11:09:40 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1367 2013-04-28 11:10:35 <__CodingNinja> so Alice takes bobs address and signs it with her PK?
1368 2013-04-28 11:11:20 crank has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1369 2013-04-28 11:12:34 <michagogo> No
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1372 2013-04-28 11:13:59 <__CodingNinja> sorry for all the questions, just trying to fully understand the mechanism in my head
1373 2013-04-28 11:14:47 <michagogo> __CodingNinja: Alice creates a transaction, which is basically a message saying "this is a transaction. The input of the transaction is output x from transaction z, and the signature for output x is abc. the output is to address y."
1374 2013-04-28 11:15:27 <michagogo> She uses the private key for whatever address output x was sent to to sign that output, "endorsing it" so to speak
1375 2013-04-28 11:16:37 <__CodingNinja> I think I get it! :)
1376 2013-04-28 11:16:41 <diki> how does the signing process actually work, technically?
1377 2013-04-28 11:16:46 <da2ce7> New Windows OT Builds: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77301
1378 2013-04-28 11:16:57 <michagogo> Now, all that Alice actually knows is that address y, which bob gave her, is a valid address
1379 2013-04-28 11:17:25 <michagogo> There's no actual way to know whether or not bob has the private key to that address
1380 2013-04-28 11:17:35 <michagogo> For example, 1BitcoinEaterAddressDontSendf59kuE is a legitimate, valid address
1381 2013-04-28 11:18:00 <michagogo> But (as far as we know) nobody has the private key for that address
1382 2013-04-28 11:18:03 <__CodingNinja> until he "spends" it and signing the next tx?
1383 2013-04-28 11:18:15 <michagogo> __CodingNinja: Right.
1384 2013-04-28 11:18:45 Tritonio_ has joined
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1386 2013-04-28 11:19:05 <__CodingNinja> no one else can spend that tx begins in the chain of tx Alice's tx stops at Bob's address
1387 2013-04-28 11:19:25 <michagogo> Basically, once Alice sends that transaction out into the network, and it gets put into the blockchain, Bob can do the same thing to wherever he wants
1388 2013-04-28 11:19:49 <michagogo> He can do the same thing Alice did, this time signing with the privkey for address y
1389 2013-04-28 11:20:14 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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1391 2013-04-28 11:20:18 whiterabbit is now known as wrabbit
1392 2013-04-28 11:20:36 <michagogo> And yeah, assuming Bob keeps his wallet secure and nobody else is able to get their hands on his privkey, nobody else can spend it
1393 2013-04-28 11:20:52 <michagogo> Keep in mind that this was just a rough explanation, some of the terms are likely wrong, etc.
1394 2013-04-28 11:21:24 <__CodingNinja> michagogo you have been extremely helpful! :)
1395 2013-04-28 11:21:32 t2che has joined
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1397 2013-04-28 11:22:36 <__CodingNinja> just trying to digest it all
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1401 2013-04-28 11:26:55 <__CodingNinja> guys any links with more detailed steps? (other than the source code) :)
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1403 2013-04-28 11:28:12 <wumpus> the wiki has quite a lot of information
1404 2013-04-28 11:28:50 <__CodingNinja> wikipedia? tried already, doesn't really go into technical details
1405 2013-04-28 11:28:59 <diki> __CodingNinja:yep
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1408 2013-04-28 11:30:00 Burbank33_ is now known as Burbank33
1409 2013-04-28 11:32:28 <michagogo> __CodingNinja: No, not wikipedia
1410 2013-04-28 11:32:43 <michagogo> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Main_Page
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1412 2013-04-28 11:32:55 <__CodingNinja> bitcoins wiki? link
1413 2013-04-28 11:33:14 <__CodingNinja> thanks!
1414 2013-04-28 11:33:20 <michagogo> np
1415 2013-04-28 11:33:54 <__CodingNinja> are the source codes at that wiki or on Github
1416 2013-04-28 11:34:28 <__CodingNinja> or are there various implementations?
1417 2013-04-28 11:36:53 brimster has quit ()
1418 2013-04-28 11:37:32 <michagogo> __CodingNinja: Well, there are various clients, etc.
1419 2013-04-28 11:37:40 <michagogo> The reference implementation is bitcoin-qt and bitcoind
1420 2013-04-28 11:37:54 <michagogo> The code for that is on github
1421 2013-04-28 11:38:10 <michagogo> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
1422 2013-04-28 11:38:10 <__CodingNinja> what about the nodes?
1423 2013-04-28 11:38:43 <michagogo> Hmm?
1424 2013-04-28 11:40:03 <michagogo> What about them?
1425 2013-04-28 11:40:44 taha has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1426 2013-04-28 11:41:24 <michagogo> __CodingNinja:
1427 2013-04-28 11:41:54 <__CodingNinja> I presume that github link are effectively what runs as a node
1428 2013-04-28 11:41:59 execut3 has joined
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1430 2013-04-28 11:43:42 <__CodingNinja> Im using Webchat michagogo
1431 2013-04-28 11:44:32 <michagogo> __CodingNinja: AFAIK, the majority of nodes are either running bitcoin-qt or bitcoind
1432 2013-04-28 11:45:04 <ecolo> whats happend after the bitcoin-qt program its finished with sync to network?
1433 2013-04-28 11:45:21 <__CodingNinja> ok cool, thanks again for all your help, its much appreciated!
1434 2013-04-28 11:50:03 <__CodingNinja> Good day to you all! :)
1435 2013-04-28 11:50:13 __CodingNinja has quit (Quit: Page closed)
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1441 2013-04-28 12:01:58 <Burbank33> I managed to delay a transaction. I set lock_time to 68864 and my transaction was delayed until block 68863. However on blockexplorer, lock_time is something weird. what is it? http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/rawtx/d0205898aa410e1ee1b64660ab2efab91ff2d2294ec17d8054b0172cf96c8c8a
1442 2013-04-28 12:04:09 orblivion has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1450 2013-04-28 12:13:43 <sipa> ecolo: nothing
1451 2013-04-28 12:14:01 <ecolo> ok thanks sipa
1452 2013-04-28 12:14:04 <ecolo> god morning :)
1453 2013-04-28 12:15:07 Diapolo has joined
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1456 2013-04-28 12:24:49 <sipa> ohai Diablo-D3
1457 2013-04-28 12:24:50 <sipa> eh
1458 2013-04-28 12:24:53 <sipa> ohai Diapolo
1459 2013-04-28 12:25:27 <Diapolo> hey sipa
1460 2013-04-28 12:25:34 <Diapolo> currently building with your last commit
1461 2013-04-28 12:26:34 <Diapolo> sipa: what does that really change or how will it help us find the problem
1462 2013-04-28 12:26:44 <Diapolo> talking about https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/20d6f2013b6629566b3fe1b5b03800fecac25e96
1463 2013-04-28 12:27:15 <sipa> Diapolo: there are two system calls whose return value is not checked for errors
1464 2013-04-28 12:27:35 <sipa> so if anything goes wrong with them (though i wouldn't know what), it's likely to cause what you see
1465 2013-04-28 12:27:44 <Diapolo> and if there is an error we will now likely see it?
1466 2013-04-28 12:27:51 <sipa> yes
1467 2013-04-28 12:27:55 <Diapolo> okay
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1471 2013-04-28 12:30:21 <Diapolo> starting the client now
1472 2013-04-28 12:30:51 <sipa> i doubt this is the problem, actually
1473 2013-04-28 12:30:56 <sipa> but i want to be sure before digging deeper
1474 2013-04-28 12:32:36 melvster has joined
1475 2013-04-28 12:33:01 <Diapolo> I just hope we catch that bug soon :(
1476 2013-04-28 12:33:07 qwebirc8601 has joined
1477 2013-04-28 12:33:11 ralphtheninja has joined
1478 2013-04-28 12:33:21 <Diapolo> there it is, I/O error, just a sec
1479 2013-04-28 12:33:22 HM has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1480 2013-04-28 12:33:30 HM has joined
1481 2013-04-28 12:34:20 <Diapolo> sipa: just the same error 2013-04-28 12:10:28 LevelDB read failure: IO error: C:\Users\Diapolo\AppData\Roaming\Bitcoin\chainstate\001294.sst: Der Prozess kann nicht auf die Datei zugreifen, da sie von einem anderen Prozess verwendet wird.
1482 2013-04-28 12:34:20 <Diapolo> 2013-04-28 12:10:28 *** Systemfehler: Database I/O error
1483 2013-04-28 12:34:37 <Diapolo> but 2 times in a row really this time
1484 2013-04-28 12:34:37 execut3 has joined
1485 2013-04-28 12:35:16 <sipa> hmm
1486 2013-04-28 12:35:20 <Diapolo> but just because I didn't click okay right after the error was shown I guess
1487 2013-04-28 12:35:36 rdymac has joined
1488 2013-04-28 12:35:38 bytecoin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1489 2013-04-28 12:35:43 <sipa> Diapolo: ooh, i found something
1490 2013-04-28 12:35:44 <Diapolo> 20 seconds in between, no need to look into this, it was even the same file
1491 2013-04-28 12:35:54 <Diapolo> sipa: tell me
1492 2013-04-28 12:36:36 jtimon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1493 2013-04-28 12:38:37 <sipa> Diapolo: pushed a new commit to win32ldberr
1494 2013-04-28 12:38:52 <Diapolo> let me see
1495 2013-04-28 12:39:53 fishfish_ has quit (Quit: Bye!)
1496 2013-04-28 12:40:09 <Diapolo> let me build again ^^
1497 2013-04-28 12:40:10 execut3 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1498 2013-04-28 12:40:27 execut3 has joined
1499 2013-04-28 12:41:32 <melvster> im just reading about testnet ... 'Testnet2 was just the first testnet reset with a different genesis block, because people were starting to trade testnet coins for real money' ... is it bad etiquette to use test net coin for real world things?
1500 2013-04-28 12:42:08 <Diapolo> any idea how often such Win32RandomAccessFiles are used by LevelDB? I still think it's weird that we didn't notice the error before
1501 2013-04-28 12:43:22 <sipa> Diapolo: for every read from tables from disk
1502 2013-04-28 12:43:37 wallet421 has joined
1503 2013-04-28 12:43:38 <sipa> the problem is that apparently it sometimes opens the same file twice
1504 2013-04-28 12:44:02 <Diapolo> sipa: which it shouldn't do?
1505 2013-04-28 12:44:20 <sipa> i don't know leveldb's internals enough to know whether that's a bug or not
1506 2013-04-28 12:44:22 <Diapolo> or which should just be allowed, which is what your patch does?
1507 2013-04-28 12:44:33 <sipa> i don't even know whether this is the problem
1508 2013-04-28 12:45:08 <sipa> but if these sharing rules are enforced between different openings of the same file, then this flag is needed
1509 2013-04-28 12:45:43 <Diapolo> let's see :)
1510 2013-04-28 12:46:22 Tritonio_ is now known as Tritonio
1511 2013-04-28 12:46:45 <Diapolo> starting...
1512 2013-04-28 12:49:42 crank has joined
1513 2013-04-28 12:51:44 <Diapolo> sipa: no error until now
1514 2013-04-28 12:52:24 egis has joined
1515 2013-04-28 12:53:23 <sipa> Diapolo: good news!
1516 2013-04-28 12:53:49 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1517 2013-04-28 12:54:30 <Diapolo> I'll let it running
1518 2013-04-28 12:54:57 <sipa> Diapolo: what -dbcache are you using?
1519 2013-04-28 12:55:09 <Diapolo> just default, 25 thn
1520 2013-04-28 12:55:10 <Diapolo> then
1521 2013-04-28 12:55:46 <sipa> ok, if this would succeed, can you also try with a higher -dbcache value?
1522 2013-04-28 12:56:09 <sipa> assuming you have some RAM left, try 1024
1523 2013-04-28 12:57:05 <sipa> oh, i hope you're using -reindex, and not downloading from scratch every time?
1524 2013-04-28 12:57:41 <Diapolo> I start the client and let it restart IBD where it crashed the last time
1525 2013-04-28 12:58:04 <sipa> ah
1526 2013-04-28 12:58:17 <Diapolo> the client doesn't force reindex via the checkbox after the crash currently
1527 2013-04-28 12:58:26 <Diapolo> äh dialogbox
1528 2013-04-28 12:58:45 <sipa> checkbox?
1529 2013-04-28 12:58:48 safra has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1530 2013-04-28 12:58:52 median^ has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1531 2013-04-28 13:00:14 <Diapolo> that popup in bitcoin-qt that asks to reindex
1532 2013-04-28 13:00:32 <Diapolo> that is NOT shown to me after a crash currently
1533 2013-04-28 13:00:32 <sipa> ok
1534 2013-04-28 13:00:51 <sipa> no, that's just if the consistency checks fail
1535 2013-04-28 13:01:38 <sipa> still, if you get it to complete, try running with -reindex to see if it can rebuild from scratch without errors
1536 2013-04-28 13:01:43 <sipa> please? :)
1537 2013-04-28 13:02:03 <Diapolo> sure
1538 2013-04-28 13:02:14 <Diapolo> only errors currently are these: 2013-04-28 12:35:48 ERROR: ProcessBlock() : already have block 157155 000000000000095fd2c7a9f8506b64611e1d2be32e75216d702aee2593eba12c
1539 2013-04-28 13:02:14 <Diapolo> 2013-04-28 12:35:48 Misbehaving: 137.118.145.144:8333 (0 -> 0)
1540 2013-04-28 13:02:18 rdymac has joined
1541 2013-04-28 13:02:21 <sipa> yeah, happens
1542 2013-04-28 13:02:30 swulf-- has joined
1543 2013-04-28 13:02:49 <Diapolo> and I observed 2013-04-28 12:28:47 socket send error 10038 any idea for that?
1544 2013-04-28 13:03:08 <Diapolo> it is a WSAENOTSOCK 10038 Socket operation on nonsocket.
1545 2013-04-28 13:03:25 <Diapolo> right after loading addresses... and seems to be there everytime?
1546 2013-04-28 13:04:29 <sipa> hmm, strange
1547 2013-04-28 13:04:40 dawei101 has joined
1548 2013-04-28 13:05:03 <Diapolo> most likely unrelated to the LevelDB thing, but I wanted to mention
1549 2013-04-28 13:05:11 swulf--1 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1550 2013-04-28 13:05:12 <Diapolo> not sure when that started
1551 2013-04-28 13:05:29 <sipa> likely not a big problem, but we should check
1552 2013-04-28 13:05:42 dawei101 has left ()
1553 2013-04-28 13:06:11 <Diapolo> I need to verify if the official 0.8.1 also does this... perhaps just a glitch of my local build
1554 2013-04-28 13:06:45 <sipa> i wonder if we couldn't automatically raise -dbcache in Bitcoin-Qt to some more performant level
1555 2013-04-28 13:06:52 <Diapolo> have you got an address for IBD which is faster than what I have now? seems rather sloooooow...
1556 2013-04-28 13:07:06 <sipa> use -dns -connect=bitcoin.sipa.be
1557 2013-04-28 13:08:43 <Diapolo> -dns is true by default right?
1558 2013-04-28 13:08:46 <sipa> no
1559 2013-04-28 13:09:04 <sipa> oh, it is!
1560 2013-04-28 13:09:14 <sipa> good
1561 2013-04-28 13:09:33 <Diapolo> yes that is fast ^^
1562 2013-04-28 13:11:16 <Diapolo> if I need a header with default settings, would you like the values to be their data-type or macros?
1563 2013-04-28 13:12:32 <sipa> ?
1564 2013-04-28 13:12:36 diki has quit ()
1565 2013-04-28 13:12:48 <sipa> AppInit2 sets the defaults?
1566 2013-04-28 13:14:33 <Diapolo> right, but optionsmodel currentl also uses some
1567 2013-04-28 13:14:44 <sipa> what does it need them for?
1568 2013-04-28 13:14:51 <Diapolo> e.g. GetBoolArg("-upnp", true)
1569 2013-04-28 13:14:52 <sipa> i really want to avoid code duplication here
1570 2013-04-28 13:14:57 <Diapolo> sipa: me too
1571 2013-04-28 13:15:19 <sipa> imho, if that is done, that argument should be turned into a boolean flag
1572 2013-04-28 13:15:33 <sipa> and you shouldn't touch Get/SetArg, and only the flag
1573 2013-04-28 13:15:51 <Diapolo> that one is already in there and I didn't do it :D
1574 2013-04-28 13:16:10 <nsh> ugh, upnp
1575 2013-04-28 13:16:17 <sipa> Diapolo: any others?
1576 2013-04-28 13:16:20 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1577 2013-04-28 13:16:20 <sipa> i'll fix it
1578 2013-04-28 13:16:34 <Diapolo> sipa: currently none afaik
1579 2013-04-28 13:16:59 <Diapolo> sipa: I think the Qt options should be somehow easier to maintain
1580 2013-04-28 13:18:51 <Diapolo> we have core and Qt-only options ... the Qt stuff has defaults defined there and the core-stuff should not have that, but perhaps needs it when we want the Reset Options button to work
1581 2013-04-28 13:19:41 <sipa> hmmz
1582 2013-04-28 13:20:26 canoon has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1583 2013-04-28 13:20:43 takeyourhatoff has joined
1584 2013-04-28 13:20:53 <sipa> Diapolo: there's fUseUPnP
1585 2013-04-28 13:21:32 <sipa> you can use that instead of GetBoolArg("-upnp", true)
1586 2013-04-28 13:22:06 <Diapolo> if it's not there or was reset. how can I get a default value and even NOT a state value of what is active currently?
1587 2013-04-28 13:23:10 <sipa> if it's not set, the value of the flag will be the default
1588 2013-04-28 13:25:22 <Diapolo> fUseUPnP is a QSetting and I want to reset it to our default ..., that will not work as intended
1589 2013-04-28 13:26:09 <Diapolo> return settings.value("fUseUPnP", GetBoolArg("-upnp", true));
1590 2013-04-28 13:27:12 <sipa> why would settings.value("fUseUPnP", fUseUPnP) not work?
1591 2013-04-28 13:27:38 bytecoin has joined
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1593 2013-04-28 13:28:00 <Diapolo> it would work, but it would not be our default right?
1594 2013-04-28 13:28:21 <sipa> resetting core options to default via the gui is broken anyway
1595 2013-04-28 13:28:33 <sipa> unless you replicate the complex code for determining defaults
1596 2013-04-28 13:28:46 <bytecoin> morning
1597 2013-04-28 13:28:56 <bytecoin> wish you all a wonderfull day coding
1598 2013-04-28 13:29:02 <sipa> the best you can do is remove the setting from the settings file, and it will be back to the default at next start
1599 2013-04-28 13:29:07 <Diapolo> sipa: so we should at lest define what we want and what is possible vs. the current state?
1600 2013-04-28 13:29:20 <sipa> not sure what you mean
1601 2013-04-28 13:29:30 <bitnumus> what is the command sipa to find probability for block time ?
1602 2013-04-28 13:29:46 <Diapolo> you say resetting core options is broken and I say what do we want it to be and what is it currently doing ^^
1603 2013-04-28 13:29:46 <bitnumus> ;;tblb or something
1604 2013-04-28 13:29:47 <gribble> Error: 'or' is not a valid positive integer.
1605 2013-04-28 13:30:05 <sipa> Diapolo: it probably half-works now
1606 2013-04-28 13:30:37 <sipa> but the only real solution is to separate option handling in AppInit2 into a separate function, and call that from GUI to recompute defaults
1607 2013-04-28 13:30:54 <sipa> that's probably something that should be done anyway, but perhaps not now
1608 2013-04-28 13:31:04 <Diapolo> which options would requite a recomputation vs. just a constant for example?
1609 2013-04-28 13:31:16 quaz0r has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1610 2013-04-28 13:31:20 <Diapolo> sipa: just stumpled over it, while adding new stuff there :)
1611 2013-04-28 13:31:24 <Diapolo> require
1612 2013-04-28 13:31:50 <sipa> -bind, -connect, -listen, -proxy, -externalip, -discover... interact in weird ways
1613 2013-04-28 13:32:00 <Diapolo> well right...
1614 2013-04-28 13:32:20 <Diapolo> I had the simple stuff in mind, -par or -dbcache ^^
1615 2013-04-28 13:32:49 <Diapolo> btw. still no crash and 40 weeks behind
1616 2013-04-28 13:33:25 <sipa> -par is mildly complex as it depends on your number of CPU cores
1617 2013-04-28 13:33:37 <sipa> -dbcache is 25 by default
1618 2013-04-28 13:33:46 <Diapolo> -par is 0 by default, which is fine
1619 2013-04-28 13:33:52 <sipa> but perhaps in the GUI version we want more
1620 2013-04-28 13:33:58 <sipa> oh, right!
1621 2013-04-28 13:34:32 <sipa> ok, i guess most settables have simple defaults anyway
1622 2013-04-28 13:34:39 <Diapolo> well but you are doing some stuff to fill in nScriptCheckThreads a value ^^
1623 2013-04-28 13:35:10 <sipa> righ
1624 2013-04-28 13:35:11 <sipa> right
1625 2013-04-28 13:36:10 <Diapolo> I currently have not the right idea for this
1626 2013-04-28 13:36:24 <sipa> do something that works
1627 2013-04-28 13:36:37 <sipa> i think this whole options thing needs a rewrite anyway
1628 2013-04-28 13:38:02 <Diapolo> aggreed
1629 2013-04-28 13:39:29 <Diapolo> sipa: I'll leave the client running until synced, will do a reindex then and do the same with -dbcache=1024 afterwards... Bundesliga is calling now ^^
1630 2013-04-28 13:39:39 <sipa> ok
1631 2013-04-28 13:39:48 <sipa> lol
1632 2013-04-28 13:39:57 <Diapolo> :-P
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1635 2013-04-28 13:41:56 <Goonie_> Luke-Jr: ping
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1665 2013-04-28 14:25:19 <bytecoin> Hi
1666 2013-04-28 14:25:38 <bytecoin> I have a question about ec_lcl.h
1667 2013-04-28 14:25:52 <bytecoin> http://www.opensource.apple.com/source/OpenSSL098/OpenSSL098-27/src/crypto/ec/ec_key.c
1668 2013-04-28 14:26:25 <bytecoin> i hear there is a drop in replacement for this developed exclusivly for the use of bitcoin et al
1669 2013-04-28 14:29:51 <ezdiy> yes there is partial contained ec implementation
1670 2013-04-28 14:30:59 Bohren has joined
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1677 2013-04-28 14:33:28 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
1678 2013-04-28 14:34:44 <sipa> bytecoin: i'm working on an optimized ecdsa implementation, specifically for secp256k1 (the curve bitcoin uses)
1679 2013-04-28 14:35:05 <bytecoin> ok sipa, is it usable?
1680 2013-04-28 14:35:12 <sipa> yes
1681 2013-04-28 14:35:14 Blitzboom has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1682 2013-04-28 14:35:26 <bytecoin> I would like to use it
1683 2013-04-28 14:35:26 <sipa> i have a build of bitcoind that uses it
1684 2013-04-28 14:35:29 Blitzboom has joined
1685 2013-04-28 14:35:31 <sipa> don't
1686 2013-04-28 14:35:40 <bytecoin> why not use it?
1687 2013-04-28 14:35:51 <sipa> because it may be insecure
1688 2013-04-28 14:36:21 <bytecoin> how would you test proper ?
1689 2013-04-28 14:36:38 <sipa> i have unit tests
1690 2013-04-28 14:36:52 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1691 2013-04-28 14:36:53 <sipa> but those can only catch frequently occurring errors
1692 2013-04-28 14:37:00 <bytecoin> can we get the unit test of openssl?
1693 2013-04-28 14:37:09 <bytecoin> how do they test it?
1694 2013-04-28 14:37:21 <sipa> i actually have no idea
1695 2013-04-28 14:37:26 B0g4r7 has joined
1696 2013-04-28 14:37:41 <bytecoin> maybe ask, they test this too i would think
1697 2013-04-28 14:37:52 <bytecoin> maybe post on dev-list of openssl
1698 2013-04-28 14:38:00 <sipa> github.com/sipa/secp256k1
1699 2013-04-28 14:38:23 <sipa> i can do tests just fine
1700 2013-04-28 14:38:24 <bytecoin> thanks, I will perform due dilligence and ask the openssl ppl for pointers on testing,
1701 2013-04-28 14:38:25 <B0g4r7> Morning.
1702 2013-04-28 14:38:41 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1703 2013-04-28 14:38:47 <sipa> what i want is smart people to look at it
1704 2013-04-28 14:38:55 <bytecoin> Morning.
1705 2013-04-28 14:38:58 grau has joined
1706 2013-04-28 14:39:03 <bytecoin> I thought you were a mathematician
1707 2013-04-28 14:39:07 <B0g4r7> I ran out of disk space (I've freed some since), and now my bitcoin-qt will no longer run. How can I fixee?
1708 2013-04-28 14:39:11 <B0g4r7> http://pastebin.com/jXM4eujG
1709 2013-04-28 14:40:26 <bytecoin> oh god C++ implementation , sipa))))
1710 2013-04-28 14:40:45 <sipa> B0g4r7: run with -reindex
1711 2013-04-28 14:40:51 <sipa> bytecoin: it's C now
1712 2013-04-28 14:41:10 <Diapolo> sipa: 5 weeks behind and no crash still :)
1713 2013-04-28 14:41:24 <sipa> and what does me being a mathematician have anything to do with it (i'm not, btw)
1714 2013-04-28 14:41:34 <bytecoin> I just checked github
1715 2013-04-28 14:41:37 <bytecoin> quick browse
1716 2013-04-28 14:41:39 <bytecoin> ok
1717 2013-04-28 14:41:45 <sipa> for something like this, you want peer review
1718 2013-04-28 14:42:24 <B0g4r7> "reindexing blocks on disk". Thanks.
1719 2013-04-28 14:42:58 <ezdiy> bytecoin: sipa is right, understanding what point multiplication is all about is a good start, before you start cut and pasting
1720 2013-04-28 14:44:21 <bytecoin> hi sipa, i am only a physicist, so no shame
1721 2013-04-28 14:45:08 Gnaf has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1722 2013-04-28 14:45:48 <ezdiy> unit tests as theorem proofs?
1723 2013-04-28 14:46:18 <bytecoin> who says that?
1724 2013-04-28 14:46:46 <ezdiy> bytecoin: that would be awesome actually
1725 2013-04-28 14:46:48 <bytecoin> unit test test the software me think, no?
1726 2013-04-28 14:46:56 <ezdiy> peer review is lenghty process
1727 2013-04-28 14:47:22 <bytecoin> better get it started then
1728 2013-04-28 14:47:23 <ezdiy> yes, but the coverage can go from "it seems to work" to "formal model verification"
1729 2013-04-28 14:47:41 pooler has joined
1730 2013-04-28 14:48:24 <bytecoin> thats not my experience in the field of implementing theory to practise, but i dont want to get into a phylosofical discussion))
1731 2013-04-28 14:48:33 <ezdiy> yup
1732 2013-04-28 14:48:42 <ezdiy> for experimental physics nobody needs exactly correct code
1733 2013-04-28 14:48:42 <bytecoin> ok,.., its 16:25 i wish you all a good day
1734 2013-04-28 14:48:59 <bytecoin> you would know ezdiy
1735 2013-04-28 14:49:06 <bytecoin> tchuss
1736 2013-04-28 14:49:13 bytecoin has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130416200523])
1737 2013-04-28 14:50:06 <Wayward> does anyone know if the dev for bitcoin.clarkmoody.com is around?
1738 2013-04-28 14:50:23 <Wayward> I wish he'd add an option for sounds that doesn't play a sound for disconnect/reconnect.
1739 2013-04-28 14:50:36 <Wayward> it defeats the purpose and gets obnoxious
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1742 2013-04-28 14:53:01 <B0g4r7> Up to block 148954 now. Reaching over 1000 reads/sec. Good thing it' s on an SSD.
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1756 2013-04-28 15:10:53 moarrrq has joined
1757 2013-04-28 15:11:09 <moarrrq> hey, how long is bitcoin supposed to take when its "rescanning" ?
1758 2013-04-28 15:11:40 <sipa> ~minutes
1759 2013-04-28 15:11:54 bibbybob has joined
1760 2013-04-28 15:11:59 <moarrrq> urgh its taking ages here
1761 2013-04-28 15:12:04 <sipa> define ages
1762 2013-04-28 15:12:15 <moarrrq> 5 minutes approx
1763 2013-04-28 15:12:22 <sipa> very normal
1764 2013-04-28 15:12:32 <sipa> it needs to read the entire blockchain
1765 2013-04-28 15:12:33 <Diablo-D3> hrm
1766 2013-04-28 15:12:37 <nsh> moarrrq, do a minor household task
1767 2013-04-28 15:12:43 <nsh> :)
1768 2013-04-28 15:12:47 <moarrrq> :)
1769 2013-04-28 15:12:49 <Diablo-D3> I wonder when 45nm or lower ASICs will come out
1770 2013-04-28 15:17:55 <nsh> for bitcoin specifically? i think there are already 45nm ASICs in other contexts
1771 2013-04-28 15:18:36 ecolo has quit ()
1772 2013-04-28 15:19:23 <nsh> or maybe just marketing copy...
1773 2013-04-28 15:20:47 <xait9> vol is wayyyy down today
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1796 2013-04-28 15:43:29 <Diapolo> sipa: IBD finished, no more LevelDB error will no start a -reindex
1797 2013-04-28 15:44:40 <Diapolo> sipa: looking through the debug.log for errors, just this one 2013-04-28 15:18:17 ERROR: Non-canonical public key: compressed nor uncompressed
1798 2013-04-28 15:46:45 rdymac has joined
1799 2013-04-28 15:49:16 <sipa> Diapolo: expected
1800 2013-04-28 15:50:01 agricocb has joined
1801 2013-04-28 15:50:03 <Michail1> Question.... is there a way to stop/rate limit bitcoind from taking up so much upload BW? My server seems like it is being DOSed many times per hour. I have finally figured out that it is bitcoind mass sending data (solvable by shutting it down).
1802 2013-04-28 15:50:09 <Diapolo> reindex is running, still dbcache @ 25MB
1803 2013-04-28 15:50:12 <sipa> Michail1: run with -nolisten
1804 2013-04-28 15:50:23 <Michail1> thanks. will try
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1812 2013-04-28 15:56:06 agricocb has joined
1813 2013-04-28 15:57:07 moarrr has joined
1814 2013-04-28 15:57:09 <moarrr> Help
1815 2013-04-28 15:57:17 <moarrr> My client isnt showing bitcoins in my wallet that are supposed to be there
1816 2013-04-28 15:57:24 <moarrr> They show in btcbalance.net but not in my client
1817 2013-04-28 15:57:24 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1818 2013-04-28 15:57:39 <moarrr> Blockchain is up to date, and its a fresh install
1819 2013-04-28 15:58:14 <sipa> what did you do?
1820 2013-04-28 15:58:47 <moarrr> I just decrypted my wallet and copied the wallet.dat to where it usually goes
1821 2013-04-28 15:59:02 <moarrr> There are no transactions listed in the transaction tab but my receive addresses are there
1822 2013-04-28 15:59:13 <Michail1> rescan
1823 2013-04-28 15:59:18 <sipa> and you ran with -rescan?
1824 2013-04-28 15:59:27 <moarrr> nope, but it seemed to take 20 minutes rescanning anyway
1825 2013-04-28 15:59:30 <moarrr> do i need to do it again?
1826 2013-04-28 15:59:43 <sipa> wait, did you or didn't you run with rescan?
1827 2013-04-28 16:00:06 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
1828 2013-04-28 16:00:07 <moarrr> i didnt specify the -rescan option, but during loading it spent 20 minutes on the "Rescanning..." screen
1829 2013-04-28 16:00:13 <sipa> hmm
1830 2013-04-28 16:00:27 <sipa> then it should be fine
1831 2013-04-28 16:00:45 <moarrr> why have i got 0.00 btc and 0 transactions then?
1832 2013-04-28 16:00:48 <sipa> you can try a full rescan, but it shouldn't be necessary
1833 2013-04-28 16:01:36 <moarrr> how do i do a full rescan?
1834 2013-04-28 16:01:42 <sipa> start with -rescan
1835 2013-04-28 16:02:27 <sipa> how recent are the transactions you miss?
1836 2013-04-28 16:02:39 <moarrr> there about a year or two old
1837 2013-04-28 16:02:46 owowo has joined
1838 2013-04-28 16:02:47 <sipa> ok, try -rescan
1839 2013-04-28 16:03:19 jaequery has joined
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1841 2013-04-28 16:03:54 <moarrr> how long will a full rescan take?
1842 2013-04-28 16:04:02 Gnaf has joined
1843 2013-04-28 16:04:56 <sipa> not much longer probably
1844 2013-04-28 16:05:59 grau has joined
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1846 2013-04-28 16:13:34 <Diapolo> sipa: intersting thing is, that I now have 112 files open, still no crash, 64 files max open patch applied
1847 2013-04-28 16:14:58 <sipa> that's around the number expected
1848 2013-04-28 16:15:03 <sipa> do you run with -txindex ?
1849 2013-04-28 16:15:19 <Diapolo> yeah still
1850 2013-04-28 16:15:21 <Diapolo> see handle-no-crash.txt
1851 2013-04-28 16:15:21 <Diapolo> https://mega.co.nz/#!6ZkgQaga!Cge6G2CoP7DqCPkljMPiznL5SHsXndCIhVhGpuMsesk
1852 2013-04-28 16:16:23 <sipa> ok
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1864 2013-04-28 16:28:43 <moarrr> its a bit better, but its only showing 32 transactions
1865 2013-04-28 16:28:48 <moarrr> and half of my bitcoins are missing
1866 2013-04-28 16:28:52 <moarrr> there are supposed to be 48
1867 2013-04-28 16:29:56 <sipa> and other resource to check the blockchain show those are there?
1868 2013-04-28 16:30:20 <moarrr> my other client shows that
1869 2013-04-28 16:30:54 <moarrr> there are 48
1870 2013-04-28 16:31:01 <sipa> what is your other client?
1871 2013-04-28 16:31:11 <moarrr> bitcoin-qt on another machine
1872 2013-04-28 16:31:20 <sipa> does it have the exact same wallet.dat?
1873 2013-04-28 16:31:38 <moarrr> im not sure
1874 2013-04-28 16:32:06 <moarrr> they were duplicated about a year ago, only difference should be that one is encrypted and the other isnt
1875 2013-04-28 16:32:23 <sipa> note that using the same wallet on two systems is not supported
1876 2013-04-28 16:32:34 geb has quit (Excess Flood)
1877 2013-04-28 16:32:37 <sipa> and the wallets will diverge as transactions are done from them
1878 2013-04-28 16:32:47 <michagogo> moarrr: If they were duplicated about a year ago, the keypools will probably not be the same
1879 2013-04-28 16:32:55 <moarrr> i dont use the wallet except sa cold storage
1880 2013-04-28 16:33:21 geb has joined
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1884 2013-04-28 16:34:29 <sipa> moarrr: did you sent coins from the wallet (either one of the duplicates), since the duplication?
1885 2013-04-28 16:34:48 <moarrr> uhm, perhaps a couple of transactions
1886 2013-04-28 16:34:50 holorga has joined
1887 2013-04-28 16:34:53 <moarrr> probably no more than a dozen
1888 2013-04-28 16:35:26 <sipa> well, still - it's not something that's guaranteed to work
1889 2013-04-28 16:42:22 <denisx> my pool make alot of transactions through the day, I can see them all in the transactionlist, but all of them have zero confirmations, but at one point they all get their first confirmation. is that maybe the problem people have with delayed tx?
1890 2013-04-28 16:42:46 <denisx> it seems that bitcoind is not sending them out at all
1891 2013-04-28 16:42:58 <denisx> and then suddenly all at once
1892 2013-04-28 16:43:04 <sipa> i doubt that
1893 2013-04-28 16:43:13 <sipa> it's likely that many of the transactions depend on eachother
1894 2013-04-28 16:43:24 <sipa> so one can't confirm before some others are
1895 2013-04-28 16:43:27 <denisx> sipa: can I send you a transactionlist example, you can see it on the dates
1896 2013-04-28 16:43:37 <sipa> i trust you
1897 2013-04-28 16:43:43 <denisx> sipa: ok, that could be the case
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1900 2013-04-28 16:44:18 <denisx> sipa: would a bigger balance help with that?
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1903 2013-04-28 16:44:55 <sipa> it's the size of your coins vs the size of your spends that counts
1904 2013-04-28 16:45:04 <sipa> listunspent will show you the coins
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1916 2013-04-28 16:54:03 <Sealy> anyone got the bitcoind running on a raspberry pi?
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1918 2013-04-28 16:54:58 <denisx> sipa: ok, only two coins unspent
1919 2013-04-28 16:55:05 <denisx> sipa: that is the problem I assume?
1920 2013-04-28 16:56:30 <sipa> it may make sense to split them up internally a bit
1921 2013-04-28 16:56:49 <denisx> sipa: shouldnt the sum of the unspent coins add up to the balance?
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1925 2013-04-28 16:58:17 <sipa> denisx: yes
1926 2013-04-28 16:58:28 <sipa> though some may be unconfirmed
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1930 2013-04-28 17:02:52 <denisx> sipa: but that is not the case here
1931 2013-04-28 17:04:18 <sipa> elaborate?
1932 2013-04-28 17:04:49 Sealy has quit (Quit: Sealy)
1933 2013-04-28 17:06:15 <denisx> sipa: I have now only one unspent with 0.007 btc, but the balance is 12.xx
1934 2013-04-28 17:06:27 jdnavarro has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1935 2013-04-28 17:06:50 <sipa> heh
1936 2013-04-28 17:07:05 Jamesonwa has joined
1937 2013-04-28 17:07:06 <sipa> oh, maybe it doesn't work correctly with generation transactions?
1938 2013-04-28 17:07:30 ThomasV has joined
1939 2013-04-28 17:09:04 gst has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1941 2013-04-28 17:10:35 <denisx> but the missing btc are transferred from the coldwallet
1942 2013-04-28 17:11:49 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
1943 2013-04-28 17:12:17 <denisx> sipa: I will keep this all in mind and will report back when I have a problem
1944 2013-04-28 17:12:55 <denisx> but at least it explains the delays I saw
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1957 2013-04-28 17:36:31 <Diapolo> sipa: -reindex finished without errors, now trying with dbcache of 1024
1958 2013-04-28 17:36:47 <sipa> Diapolo: great to hear
1959 2013-04-28 17:37:42 BlackPrapor has joined
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1961 2013-04-28 17:40:39 <Diapolo> Can I query -dbcache at runtime via the client or log-file?
1962 2013-04-28 17:40:40 taha has joined
1963 2013-04-28 17:41:08 <sipa> don't think so
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1965 2013-04-28 17:48:09 Nash has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1966 2013-04-28 17:48:54 <Diapolo> will a reindex start from where it was after a client restart? perhaps a dumb question ^^
1967 2013-04-28 17:49:59 Nash has joined
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1971 2013-04-28 17:54:07 <sipa> Diapolo: yes
1972 2013-04-28 17:54:20 <sipa> Diapolo: unless you specify -reindex again, in which case it will restart from scratch
1973 2013-04-28 17:55:35 nou has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1974 2013-04-28 17:56:00 Jamesonwa has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1975 2013-04-28 17:57:09 <Diapolo> thanks sipa
1976 2013-04-28 17:58:43 pooler has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1988 2013-04-28 18:20:21 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen/anyone: why would util_loop_forever break? http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/54080bb7d93718c942423f71a5bde80b2e955478/test.log
1989 2013-04-28 18:22:10 <BlueMatt> Diapolo: obviously I have no idea
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1991 2013-04-28 18:24:14 witwit has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1992 2013-04-28 18:24:21 <sipa> BlueMatt: when the system is slow enough so that the forked thread hasn't actually executed before being interrupted?
1993 2013-04-28 18:26:35 <Diapolo> BlueMatt: just wanted to mention, as I have no idea either ^^
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2002 2013-04-28 18:29:27 <BlueMatt> sipa: I doubt that server is that slow...
2003 2013-04-28 18:34:08 moarrr has joined
2004 2013-04-28 18:34:17 <moarrr> thanks sipa, i got it working
2005 2013-04-28 18:34:34 <moarrr> i think the old version of my wallet is missing some addresses
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2031 2013-04-28 19:14:15 whiterab1it is now known as wrabbit
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2034 2013-04-28 19:17:48 <Diapolo> sipa: finished with 1024 dbcache, all good
2035 2013-04-28 19:18:00 whiterabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2036 2013-04-28 19:18:27 <sipa> great
2037 2013-04-28 19:18:45 <sipa> how long did that take you?
2038 2013-04-28 19:20:45 paybitcoin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2039 2013-04-28 19:21:27 <Diapolo> 17:16:26 - 18:55:38
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2043 2013-04-28 19:23:51 BTCOxygen is now known as Oxygen
2044 2013-04-28 19:23:59 <jgarzik> "Yesterday the fingerprints of every key in the PGP strong set as well as every key on bitcoin-otc were timestamped permanently in the blockchain for a cost of only $150 or 0.3 cents per timestamp."
2045 2013-04-28 19:24:01 <jgarzik> sigh
2046 2013-04-28 19:24:21 Oxygen is now known as Guest44299
2047 2013-04-28 19:24:31 Guest44299 is now known as BTCOxygen
2048 2013-04-28 19:24:32 JDuke128 has joined
2049 2013-04-28 19:24:37 <michagogo> hmm?
2050 2013-04-28 19:24:54 <jgarzik> using blockchain as data storage, rather than currency
2051 2013-04-28 19:25:05 <jgarzik> permanently burdening the chain
2052 2013-04-28 19:25:13 <michagogo> :-/
2053 2013-04-28 19:25:28 <michagogo> Isn't that what namecoins are for?
2054 2013-04-28 19:27:02 MobPhone has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2055 2013-04-28 19:27:11 freik has joined
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2057 2013-04-28 19:27:29 <Luke-Jr> Goonie_: pong
2058 2013-04-28 19:27:55 phish has joined
2059 2013-04-28 19:27:57 <Goonie_> hi luke, I just wanted to tell that your client versions page is strange
2060 2013-04-28 19:28:00 <sipa> jgarzik: that's his point exactly
2061 2013-04-28 19:28:05 phish has left ()
2062 2013-04-28 19:28:09 <Luke-Jr> Goonie_: how so?
2063 2013-04-28 19:28:19 <sipa> jgarzik: he wants to force people to do something about that
2064 2013-04-28 19:28:29 <sipa> i think
2065 2013-04-28 19:28:43 <Goonie_> luke: shows 80% as unknown and the rest does not make sense as well
2066 2013-04-28 19:28:49 <sipa> even worse, he's not just burdening the chain... he's burdening the UTXO set
2067 2013-04-28 19:29:26 <Goonie_> luke: for example 1 10026 70001 "/Satoshi:0.8.1/" unknown
2068 2013-04-28 19:30:04 <jgarzik> sipa: indeed :(
2069 2013-04-28 19:30:41 <Luke-Jr> Goonie_: aha, I think sipa's formatting change broke it after all >_<
2070 2013-04-28 19:30:48 <jgarzik> sipa: though if he used the python tool (both upload and download scripts are themselves embedded in the chain), it should be easy to detect
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2075 2013-04-28 19:38:39 <Luke-Jr> Goonie_: fixed
2076 2013-04-28 19:39:07 Btceldur has quit ()
2077 2013-04-28 19:39:50 <Goonie_> luke: cool, thanks.
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2098 2013-04-28 20:07:20 <MC1984_> There a really good case for a distributed document timestamping thing
2099 2013-04-28 20:07:31 <MC1984_> but it really needs to be on a sidechain
2100 2013-04-28 20:07:47 <sipa> no need for a chain
2101 2013-04-28 20:07:49 <MC1984_> god someone please make stampcoin before bitcoin goes under
2102 2013-04-28 20:08:00 <sipa> chronobit works, afaik
2103 2013-04-28 20:08:11 ecolo has joined
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2105 2013-04-28 20:09:35 <MC1984_> reads like it also shoves shit into bitcoin blocks?
2106 2013-04-28 20:10:18 <sipa> no, it doesn't
2107 2013-04-28 20:10:21 <sipa> it's O(1)
2108 2013-04-28 20:11:14 sanchaz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2109 2013-04-28 20:13:50 <ecolo> is the any saving logs if you run your bitcoin-qt program without VPN?
2110 2013-04-28 20:14:09 <MC1984_> what sort of logs
2111 2013-04-28 20:14:37 <ecolo> truth the network?
2112 2013-04-28 20:14:39 <sipa> what do logs have to do with VPN?
2113 2013-04-28 20:14:42 <ecolo> i mean _any_ logs?
2114 2013-04-28 20:14:47 <ecolo> sipa: your real ip
2115 2013-04-28 20:15:14 <MC1984_> its a public network
2116 2013-04-28 20:15:19 <MC1984_> anyone can log anything they see
2117 2013-04-28 20:15:31 <MC1984_> thats why there is tor support included
2118 2013-04-28 20:16:08 <ecolo> MC1984_: where is the tor support? i cant find it
2119 2013-04-28 20:16:09 Tritonio has joined
2120 2013-04-28 20:16:25 <MC1984_> dunno ive never used it
2121 2013-04-28 20:16:55 <ecolo> so you are not annonymous by using bitcoin?
2122 2013-04-28 20:17:12 <sipa> bitcoin is absolutely not anonymous
2123 2013-04-28 20:17:13 <MC1984_> nope
2124 2013-04-28 20:17:21 <pigeons> :)
2125 2013-04-28 20:17:37 <ecolo> you joke?
2126 2013-04-28 20:17:38 <ecolo> :)
2127 2013-04-28 20:17:40 <sipa> it's something the press likes to repeat, but it's completely misleading
2128 2013-04-28 20:17:45 <pigeons> its a public ledger
2129 2013-04-28 20:17:46 <jgarzik> sipa: thanks for opening the expanded NODE_xxx discussion
2130 2013-04-28 20:17:56 <sipa> jgarzik: was about time
2131 2013-04-28 20:18:05 <jgarzik> definitely
2132 2013-04-28 20:18:05 <ecolo> i heard bitcoin its the saftest
2133 2013-04-28 20:18:12 <jgarzik> especially with people dumping data into the chain
2134 2013-04-28 20:18:17 <jgarzik> full nodes will shrink
2135 2013-04-28 20:18:25 <jgarzik> but we need a service model beyond that
2136 2013-04-28 20:18:59 freik has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
2137 2013-04-28 20:19:01 <MC1984_> about that
2138 2013-04-28 20:19:16 <michagogo> Someone should shove http://pastebin.com/0vQ6sv1B into the blockchain
2139 2013-04-28 20:19:20 <MC1984_> is there any evidence that the disk spac requirement is stopping people running nodes
2140 2013-04-28 20:19:32 <MC1984_> cos i thought it was more the validation
2141 2013-04-28 20:19:41 <MC1984_> which has to be done pruned or not
2142 2013-04-28 20:19:56 <MC1984_> so why is it now time to be doing pruning
2143 2013-04-28 20:20:04 <sipa> i've heard people giving up after hearing the storage requirements
2144 2013-04-28 20:20:25 <sipa> it's more because it will be necessary anyway, at some point, imho
2145 2013-04-28 20:20:26 <MC1984_> for 8GB?
2146 2013-04-28 20:20:53 <sipa> and i like a bitcoin economy that doesn't rely on everyone having ready access to the entire chain
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2151 2013-04-28 20:22:02 <MC1984_> not everyone, but all who can which should be most people on a desktop for the foreseeable future?
2152 2013-04-28 20:22:03 <ecolo> I'll rephrase myself. I use the bitcoin-qt client and has so far not made ââany transactions.
2153 2013-04-28 20:22:03 <ecolo> I only sync with the network and I have used VPN at this. But I accidentally shut down my VPN few seconds, so that the program has sync to the network but my real ip address. Should I reformat the computer and create a new account in order to maintain my anonymity?
2154 2013-04-28 20:22:09 GlitchNZ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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2156 2013-04-28 20:22:35 <MC1984_> validators ar the only thing keeping mining power in check, and the only way to make new validators is serving IBDs
2157 2013-04-28 20:22:42 mekel has joined
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2159 2013-04-28 20:22:50 <sipa> ecolo: no need
2160 2013-04-28 20:22:54 <MC1984_> though i agree pruning is gonna happen one day any way
2161 2013-04-28 20:23:03 <sipa> ecolo: there is nothing another can have to identify with your ip
2162 2013-04-28 20:23:15 <mekel> hey everyone i know this is dev but i thot it might be the best place to get support
2163 2013-04-28 20:23:29 <ecolo> sipa: what do you mean by that?
2164 2013-04-28 20:23:40 <mekel> i am getting this error when i do this command for aticonfig home/user# sudo aticonfig --adapter=all --odgt aticonfig: No supported adapters detected
2165 2013-04-28 20:23:44 <ecolo> have my IPS seen my accounts? I mean, in any cases?
2166 2013-04-28 20:23:59 <mekel> do i need the linux version of the grafix card driver?
2167 2013-04-28 20:24:02 <sipa> ecolo: no
2168 2013-04-28 20:24:23 <sipa> ecolo: addresses do not exists on the network, they are client side
2169 2013-04-28 20:24:25 <Michail1> sipa - Thanks for the -nolisten command. it resolved the issue.
2170 2013-04-28 20:24:55 <sipa> ecolo: when you broadcast a transaction, someone may correlate the address it consumes inputs from with your IP
2171 2013-04-28 20:25:23 <MC1984_> mekel #bitcoin-mining
2172 2013-04-28 20:25:32 <mekel> thanks ill check it out
2173 2013-04-28 20:25:40 bcbud has joined
2174 2013-04-28 20:25:43 <bcbud> hey
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2179 2013-04-28 20:29:24 <bcbud> anyone on?
2180 2013-04-28 20:29:44 <michagogo> Yes
2181 2013-04-28 20:31:30 <MC1984_> i far that if people downloading are givent he option to just save gigabytes of space that they will just do it for the hell of it
2182 2013-04-28 20:32:20 JTF195 has joined
2183 2013-04-28 20:32:25 <MC1984_> because you know a lot of people are like that
2184 2013-04-28 20:32:50 <sipa> MC1984_: more important than downloading, processing, or storing, imho, is serving
2185 2013-04-28 20:32:56 <sipa> upload bandwidth are limited
2186 2013-04-28 20:33:53 <sipa> while there are other types of connections (VPS'es, ...) which have very high upload capacity compared to home connections
2187 2013-04-28 20:34:26 <MC1984_> bitcoin lives or dies by its decentralisation right?
2188 2013-04-28 20:34:39 <MC1984_> that means, from peoples houses as much as possible
2189 2013-04-28 20:34:52 <michagogo> Not necessarily.
2190 2013-04-28 20:35:06 <buZz> you could put all the nodes in one datacenter just fine
2191 2013-04-28 20:35:20 <MC1984_> otherwise, the system tends towards being a very inefficient paypal or whatever
2192 2013-04-28 20:35:32 brson has joined
2193 2013-04-28 20:35:51 <tumak> MC1984_: i think more accurat description would be "the new status quo"
2194 2013-04-28 20:35:59 <Luke-Jr> MC1984_: the worst case scenario for mining centralization, is one person can block transactions
2195 2013-04-28 20:36:00 <tumak> paypal is subject to global financial status quo
2196 2013-04-28 20:36:09 <tumak> miners participate in the same way
2197 2013-04-28 20:36:17 <Luke-Jr> it's only NODE centralization that really kills the system
2198 2013-04-28 20:36:20 <sipa> being able to verify is far more important than actually having the block chain localy
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2200 2013-04-28 20:36:50 <MC1984_> Luke-Jr mining is already conceded to concentrations due to efficiencies i know
2201 2013-04-28 20:36:55 <sipa> i want running a full node to be cheap, even if that means not storing or serving the chain
2202 2013-04-28 20:36:55 <MC1984_> i accepted that
2203 2013-04-28 20:36:58 <Luke-Jr> denisx: get my email?
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2205 2013-04-28 20:37:20 <Luke-Jr> MC1984_: not entirely - consumer ASICs and GBT do exist to help decentralize things more
2206 2013-04-28 20:37:31 <denisx> Luke-Jr: yes, but I need to investigate further
2207 2013-04-28 20:37:41 <MC1984_> sipa i can see what youre saying there
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2209 2013-04-28 20:38:11 <denisx> sipa: what is the recommended way to split unspent coins?
2210 2013-04-28 20:38:24 <MC1984_> but to make a new validator you need someone to give you the chain, all of it
2211 2013-04-28 20:38:38 <sipa> MC1984_: indeed, but only once (idealy
2212 2013-04-28 20:38:40 <MC1984_> if that becomes difficult, validators tend to zero
2213 2013-04-28 20:38:52 <MC1984_> well not zero, but not enough
2214 2013-04-28 20:38:58 <tumak> maybe we'll live to the day when thin clients will have to pay small fee just to download the tiny bit for spv
2215 2013-04-28 20:39:15 <sipa> denisx: sendmany, to several different addresses of your own
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2217 2013-04-28 20:40:09 <MC1984_> Luke-Jr how long do you think operations like avalon and BFL selling silly boxes with USB cables will last?
2218 2013-04-28 20:40:32 <tumak> MC1984_: its not silly imo
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2220 2013-04-28 20:41:07 <MC1984_> mining is destined for serious professional ownership, and the only check on that is validators and lots of them
2221 2013-04-28 20:41:14 <tumak> obvious centralised hashpower is cutting the branch beneath yourself
2222 2013-04-28 20:41:14 <MC1984_> which is why im skittish about pruning
2223 2013-04-28 20:42:33 <MC1984_> tumak tell that to the central banking financial system which has thrown the world into depression
2224 2013-04-28 20:42:45 <tumak> MC1984_: except central banking is enforced status quo
2225 2013-04-28 20:42:50 <tumak> bitcoin is voluntary status quo
2226 2013-04-28 20:43:05 <tumak> if mining operations become evil megacorp
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2228 2013-04-28 20:43:13 <tumak> trust will loosen (but slowly, thanks to inertia)
2229 2013-04-28 20:43:13 <MC1984_> not if everything ends up in a couple of datacenters
2230 2013-04-28 20:43:21 <MC1984_> it will become involuntary
2231 2013-04-28 20:43:29 <gmaxwell> MC1984_: welp, good to be concerned but at the same timeâ people feeling they must run SPV nodes (which suck in multifold ways, including just having less mature wallet software) because the space is a little much is unfortunate.
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2233 2013-04-28 20:44:31 <MC1984_> gmaxwell im having a read hard time believing people are generally balking at 8GB in this day and age, and if they are.....were screwed
2234 2013-04-28 20:44:39 * tumak believes blockchain size will never be an issue for people who truly want to run full node
2235 2013-04-28 20:45:13 <tumak> i mean, assuming its size doubles every year
2236 2013-04-28 20:45:25 <gmaxwell> MC1984_: people are. Some of it is just OCD, but just because some of the motiviations are silly doesn't mean they aren't real.
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2239 2013-04-28 20:45:47 <MC1984_> its irrational!
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2241 2013-04-28 20:46:09 <sipa> so is pi!
2242 2013-04-28 20:46:19 ngc0202 has joined
2243 2013-04-28 20:46:22 <gmaxwell> They're also forward extrapolating. "Okay, 8gb is INSANE ! but I could do it now.. but WHAT ABOUT TOMMOROW?! OMG IT GROWS FOREVER" :P
2244 2013-04-28 20:46:35 <MC1984_> lol
2245 2013-04-28 20:46:39 <tumak> so does consumer storage hardware
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2247 2013-04-28 20:46:58 <a> uypp
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2249 2013-04-28 20:47:25 <gmaxwell> MC1984_: lots of people also in colocation where unbounded storage is not as easily available as consumer storage hardware...
2250 2013-04-28 20:47:29 <uypp> hi
2251 2013-04-28 20:47:55 <uypp> how does bitcoin check what time passed between two blocks?
2252 2013-04-28 20:48:45 <MC1984_> im pretty hardline about nodes being in people houses anyway, so vps nodes and such hardly count imo
2253 2013-04-28 20:49:00 <MC1984_> in that domain storage space runs like water
2254 2013-04-28 20:49:18 <MC1984_> saying that so does rather hefty processing these days
2255 2013-04-28 20:49:37 <MC1984_> and increasingly bandwidth
2256 2013-04-28 20:49:37 <_dr> also don't forget about newcomers. to them it may not even be about the 8gb, but about the initial time to sync (and dl the blob)
2257 2013-04-28 20:49:40 <sipa> uypp: blocks have timestamps
2258 2013-04-28 20:49:53 <tumak> MC1984_: well, let's assume bitcoin tx volume is visa-level
2259 2013-04-28 20:49:58 <tumak> MC1984_: thats about 20k txes a second
2260 2013-04-28 20:50:02 <MC1984_> my ISP recently doubled every feature of my connection for free, speed caps and everything
2261 2013-04-28 20:50:10 <sipa> tumak: in what age?
2262 2013-04-28 20:50:28 <MC1984_> tumak thats probably never going to happen
2263 2013-04-28 20:50:30 <tumak> sipa: i think it was 2009 or 2010 christmas visa boasted those numbers
2264 2013-04-28 20:50:43 <sipa> tumak: no, in what age are you making that assumption?
2265 2013-04-28 20:50:47 <MC1984_> blocks need to stay way smaller than that for a long long time
2266 2013-04-28 20:50:56 <tumak> sipa: yeah, that is important question
2267 2013-04-28 20:51:08 <tumak> sipa: if we're to be making ballpark guesses about available storage by then
2268 2013-04-28 20:51:12 <michagogo> sipa: How about building a bittorrent client into bitcoin-qt that automatically grabs magnet:?xt=urn:btih:6FE493BA606847EAC163BAF35AAE9DB319735482&dn=bootstrap.dat&tr=udp%3a%2f%2ftracker.openbittorrent.com%3a80&tr=udp%3a%2f%2ftracker.publicbt.com%3a80&tr=udp%3a%2f%2ftracker.ccc.de%3a80&tr=udp%3a%2f%2ftracker.istole.it%3a80
2269 2013-04-28 20:51:12 <tumak> just trying to find the upper bound
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2272 2013-04-28 20:52:18 <uypp> sipa, so miners are adding a timestamp to the block? thats all?
2273 2013-04-28 20:52:23 <tumak> so thats 10Mb/second
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2275 2013-04-28 20:52:46 <tumak> so if consumer bw will be 10gbits at home, and appropiate disk storage, i see no problem :)
2276 2013-04-28 20:53:24 <_dr> so korea should be fine
2277 2013-04-28 20:53:25 <tumak> hehe
2278 2013-04-28 20:53:36 <_dr> but what about the rest of us in the decaying west ;)
2279 2013-04-28 20:53:52 <_dr> german telecom just decided to introduce bw caps, wohoo
2280 2013-04-28 20:53:56 <MC1984_> what is bitcoin systems equilibrium state
2281 2013-04-28 20:54:04 <MC1984_> the most important question in bitcoin right now
2282 2013-04-28 20:54:15 <tumak> MC1984_: you mean when it will stop growing?
2283 2013-04-28 20:54:25 <MC1984_> not necessarily that
2284 2013-04-28 20:54:26 <tumak> apparently when everyone uses it, or viable challenger appears
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2287 2013-04-28 20:54:57 <tumak> MC1984_: there are also ideas to do micro-tx off-chain, while being still backed in the main chain
2288 2013-04-28 20:55:07 <tumak> which sounds more likely to happen
2289 2013-04-28 20:55:23 <MC1984_> i bet these all sort of complicated maths that could model it, given bitcoins parameters sufficiently
2290 2013-04-28 20:55:42 <tumak> well, you could extrapolate
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2294 2013-04-28 20:55:48 <tumak> buts its kinda like crystal ball gazing
2295 2013-04-28 20:56:01 <MC1984_> yeah kinda
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2298 2013-04-28 20:56:53 <MC1984_> it seems like mining is destined for $MEGACORP$, and the fate of validation depends very much on many specific small decisions taken within the next few years perhaps
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2302 2013-04-28 20:58:02 <tumak> i'll place my bets on duopoly or tripoly
2303 2013-04-28 20:58:10 <tumak> you know, rockefeller style
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2305 2013-04-28 20:58:20 <sipa> uypp: there are some rules about which timestamps are allowed, but yes
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2307 2013-04-28 20:58:32 <tumak> MC1984_: in fact, a lot of parallels could be drawn to the oil gush of 1900s
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2309 2013-04-28 20:58:46 <MC1984_> dont you see why thats conceptually a problem? outside of whether bitcoin fails or not?
2310 2013-04-28 20:58:47 <tumak> MC1984_: everyone thought it was ridiculous idea at first ...
2311 2013-04-28 20:58:59 <tumak> MC1984_: is there oil megacorp nowadays?
2312 2013-04-28 20:59:00 <tumak> nah
2313 2013-04-28 20:59:02 <tumak> there are several
2314 2013-04-28 20:59:08 <MC1984_> this is a question about whether people, as a whole, deserve better
2315 2013-04-28 20:59:22 <tumak> i think its the inevitable result of capitalism
2316 2013-04-28 20:59:27 <tumak> rise and fall of megacorps
2317 2013-04-28 20:59:38 <MC1984_> if bitcoin fails due to irrationality, we dont
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2320 2013-04-28 21:00:17 <MC1984_> maybe im thinking about it too hard, but it troubles me
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2325 2013-04-28 21:00:55 <tumak> MC1984_: those are actually valid points, but apply universally across to board
2326 2013-04-28 21:00:58 <tumak> not just bitcoin
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2328 2013-04-28 21:01:12 <MC1984_> yes as i said, beyond bitcoin
2329 2013-04-28 21:01:13 <tumak> if you have enough capital, you can bring up more and more, if youre good at it of course
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2332 2013-04-28 21:01:21 <MC1984_> bitcoin just happens to be a very good litmuss test for this
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2334 2013-04-28 21:01:27 <uypp> sipa: wouldt it easy to sb to undo the complete blockchain with fakeing the timestamp to not increase the difficulty? i mean rebuilding the blockchain from the genesisblock
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2339 2013-04-28 21:02:11 <tumak> MC1984_: i think we'd be different species if the power dynamics was different
2340 2013-04-28 21:02:18 <MC1984_> i want to see bitcoin succeed, as a distributed system, becasue i want to believe people DESERVE better
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2346 2013-04-28 21:02:22 <MC1984_> i do with all my heart
2347 2013-04-28 21:02:23 <tumak> in theory socialism is better solution to game theory
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2350 2013-04-28 21:02:46 <tumak> but it falls the second there is even one not cooperating
2351 2013-04-28 21:02:47 <nsh> irrationality is just another source of noise for which to compensate :)
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2357 2013-04-28 21:03:31 <tumak> MC1984_: i think the fundamental (and non-PC) question is whether are people born equal or not
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2359 2013-04-28 21:03:47 <Luke-Jr> tumak: in theory, any political system - even anarchy - would work in a perfect world
2360 2013-04-28 21:03:51 <tumak> MC1984_: and this includes the initial capital they get (family wealth)
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2363 2013-04-28 21:03:57 <tumak> Luke-Jr: yup
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2365 2013-04-28 21:04:07 <Luke-Jr> the whole reason political systems are necessary is because the world isn't perfect
2366 2013-04-28 21:04:08 <Luke-Jr> :p
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2373 2013-04-28 21:04:35 <tumak> Luke-Jr: what do you know, there may be victorian renesance
2374 2013-04-28 21:04:36 <sipa> uypp: when deciding which chain is the 'longest', the total prrof of work is used, not number of blocks
2375 2013-04-28 21:04:41 <tumak> the moral decay certainly calls for it
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2377 2013-04-28 21:05:12 * tumak admits to be fan of neo-political speculation of neal stephenson
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2386 2013-04-28 21:06:16 <uypp> sipa, so a block on difficulty 4 is 4times more worth than a block on difficulty 1 ?
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2396 2013-04-28 21:10:25 <MC1984_> ive gone right into philisophical bullshit again havent i
2397 2013-04-28 21:10:30 <MC1984_> i WAS talking about pruning /
2398 2013-04-28 21:11:14 <sipa> uypp: correct
2399 2013-04-28 21:11:36 <Luke-Jr> err
2400 2013-04-28 21:11:39 <Luke-Jr> not correct
2401 2013-04-28 21:11:43 <Luke-Jr> blocks are worth the same alwaysw
2402 2013-04-28 21:11:49 <Luke-Jr> 4 times more worK, yes
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2405 2013-04-28 21:12:20 <sipa> Luke-Jr: for comparing block chains, to find the best one
2406 2013-04-28 21:12:27 <uypp> sipa, ok thats clever! thank you :)
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2408 2013-04-28 21:13:06 <Luke-Jr> ah
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2450 2013-04-28 22:04:20 <travolta> Hey guys question on the bitcoin API: if I use setaccount with a bitcoin address, without public or private keys, can I then use the bitcoind API to get all the transactions on that address?
2451 2013-04-28 22:04:40 <sipa> travolta: accounts have almost nothing to do with addresses
2452 2013-04-28 22:04:57 <sipa> they are just virtual balances, pretty much independent from how coins are assigned to addresses
2453 2013-04-28 22:05:02 <travolta> how do I use the bitcoind API to get transactions on a bitcoin address?
2454 2013-04-28 22:05:17 <travolta> without worring about whats inside the wallet.dat
2455 2013-04-28 22:05:29 <sipa> you mean for arbitrary addresses?
2456 2013-04-28 22:05:32 <travolta> yeah
2457 2013-04-28 22:05:37 <sipa> that's not possible
2458 2013-04-28 22:05:42 <travolta> why not?
2459 2013-04-28 22:05:59 <phantomcircuit> because the code to do that isn't there
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2461 2013-04-28 22:06:03 <sipa> you'd need a huge per-address index for the entire chain
2462 2013-04-28 22:06:06 <travolta> thats stupid
2463 2013-04-28 22:06:20 <phantomcircuit> travolta, you're stupid
2464 2013-04-28 22:06:21 sacredchao has joined
2465 2013-04-28 22:06:32 <sipa> travolta: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/10090/how-to-get-an-addresss-balance-with-the-bitcoin-client/10101#10101
2466 2013-04-28 22:07:05 <gmaxwell> increasing the cost of running a node substantially (e.g. a gigabyte of space, and probably 2x the writes while validating a block) for a special case analysis usecase that isn't normally used is not wise.
2467 2013-04-28 22:07:34 <gmaxwell> actually gigabyte of space + incompatible with pruning + write inflation.
2468 2013-04-28 22:07:51 <travolta> so how do ppl get around this issue?
2469 2013-04-28 22:08:00 <gmaxwell> MC1984_: well there is part of the motivation for not pruning for youâ txindex and addrindex are incompatible with it. :)
2470 2013-04-28 22:08:01 <sipa> first of all, what do you need it for?
2471 2013-04-28 22:08:08 <gmaxwell> travolta: You haven't actually said what you're trying to accomplish.
2472 2013-04-28 22:08:17 <travolta> I need to track what happens to certain address...
2473 2013-04-28 22:08:25 <gmaxwell> travolta: You haven't actually said what you're trying to accomplish.
2474 2013-04-28 22:08:31 <travolta> without keeping a huge wallet.dat file
2475 2013-04-28 22:08:40 Namworld has joined
2476 2013-04-28 22:09:06 <travolta> I know a solution is to have the addresses on wallet.dat then... encrypt the wallet and discard the key
2477 2013-04-28 22:09:17 <travolta> that would work theoretically right?
2478 2013-04-28 22:09:20 <sipa> indeed
2479 2013-04-28 22:09:22 <gmaxwell> travolta: You haven't actually said what you're trying to accomplish.
2480 2013-04-28 22:09:44 <travolta> just to track trasactions externally on a given list of addresses/public keys
2481 2013-04-28 22:09:59 <gmaxwell> For what purposes? it matters.
2482 2013-04-28 22:10:13 <travolta> just to know their balances
2483 2013-04-28 22:10:24 <gmaxwell> Addresses don't have balances.
2484 2013-04-28 22:10:25 <MC1984_> not many need txindex
2485 2013-04-28 22:10:29 <MC1984_> i dont
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2487 2013-04-28 22:10:40 <travolta> nope but their corresponding transactions do right?
2488 2013-04-28 22:10:46 <sh4k> jose
2489 2013-04-28 22:10:58 <sh4k> op moi jose
2490 2013-04-28 22:11:02 <travolta> thats why I need the transactions of each corresponding address/public key
2491 2013-04-28 22:11:04 <sipa> you can meaningfully define 'balance of an address', but it's rarely a good idea to think about it that way
2492 2013-04-28 22:11:08 <travolta> without having to keep private keys in there
2493 2013-04-28 22:11:20 <travolta> whys that?
2494 2013-04-28 22:11:20 <sh4k> arrete de parler en anglais jose
2495 2013-04-28 22:11:49 <sipa> sh4k: #bitcoin-fr
2496 2013-04-28 22:11:59 <sh4k> yeah thanks jose
2497 2013-04-28 22:12:02 keymone has quit (Quit: keymone)
2498 2013-04-28 22:12:12 <travolta> why does it feel I am asking for something alien here lol
2499 2013-04-28 22:12:19 mappum has joined
2500 2013-04-28 22:12:25 <travolta> Isn't it still clear what I want?
2501 2013-04-28 22:12:26 <sipa> travolta: you still haven't said what you need these "address balances" for
2502 2013-04-28 22:12:26 <gmaxwell> Because you're asking for something alien. :P
2503 2013-04-28 22:12:31 <phantomcircuit> travolta, what you're asking for is almost always a bad idea
2504 2013-04-28 22:12:31 <MC1984_> welcome to dev
2505 2013-04-28 22:12:38 <travolta> lo
2506 2013-04-28 22:12:40 <travolta> lol
2507 2013-04-28 22:12:43 <phantomcircuit> travolta, they're trying to get you to say what problem you're trying to solve
2508 2013-04-28 22:12:53 <sipa> travolta: it's perfectly clear, but it's a hard thing to do... so if you explain what the actual problem is, perhaps we can help you find a better solution
2509 2013-04-28 22:12:57 <phantomcircuit> because the solution you've chosen is... well almost certainly stupid
2510 2013-04-28 22:13:05 <jouke> travolta: take a look at armory
2511 2013-04-28 22:13:25 <gmaxwell> I mean, the channel _topic_ has has advice on this kind of question asking: "Tell us what you're trying to do, not how you think you need to do it."
2512 2013-04-28 22:13:27 <travolta> on the block chains keep transactions right, so if I have an arbritary address, I should be able to extract its current balance, of the block chain by computing the outcome of the transactions?
2513 2013-04-28 22:13:38 <sipa> travolta: absolutely
2514 2013-04-28 22:13:43 <phantomcircuit> facepalm
2515 2013-04-28 22:13:45 <sipa> travolta: but why do you need that number?
2516 2013-04-28 22:13:55 <travolta> Why is it any of your buswax?
2517 2013-04-28 22:13:56 <travolta> lol
2518 2013-04-28 22:13:59 <jouke> travolta: you are ablo to, but not with bitcoind. it was not designed to do so.
2519 2013-04-28 22:14:02 <travolta> just asking for help on how to accomplish that
2520 2013-04-28 22:14:04 <sipa> because we're trying to help you
2521 2013-04-28 22:14:06 <travolta> :P
2522 2013-04-28 22:14:20 <sipa> i've already told you that what you're trying to do is impossible with bitcoind
2523 2013-04-28 22:14:23 Nothing4You has joined
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2525 2013-04-28 22:14:30 <travolta> Do I have to mod it somehow?
2526 2013-04-28 22:14:38 <travolta> to keep an index?
2527 2013-04-28 22:14:40 <phantomcircuit> and more so is probably a stupid solution
2528 2013-04-28 22:14:53 Nothing4You has joined
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2530 2013-04-28 22:15:00 <travolta> whys that?
2531 2013-04-28 22:15:03 <sipa> that would almost certainly be the wrong solution, but i can't know that unless i know what you want to accomplish
2532 2013-04-28 22:15:20 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
2533 2013-04-28 22:15:45 <gmaxwell> travolta: you really need to tell us what you're trying to accomplish, because as phantomcircuit points out not so politely, what you're trying to do might be very foolishâ as it might be making assumptions about how addresses are used which are commonly incorrect. But we can't tell because you won't actually say what you're trying to accomplish, only how you expect to accomplish it.
2534 2013-04-28 22:18:12 ThomasV has joined
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2536 2013-04-28 22:19:23 <buZz> travolta: you could look at the source for the blockexplorer, this can give balance for random accounts
2537 2013-04-28 22:19:34 <buZz> travolta: it just doesnt take in account orphaned blocks
2538 2013-04-28 22:19:41 <sipa> afaik blockexplorer isn't open source
2539 2013-04-28 22:19:55 <buZz> booooo
2540 2013-04-28 22:19:57 <buZz> horrible!
2541 2013-04-28 22:20:06 <Luke-Jr> ABE is an open source clone
2542 2013-04-28 22:20:08 <buZz> sounds like they need a kick in the teeth
2543 2013-04-28 22:20:17 <buZz> Luke-Jr: can that do the same? :)
2544 2013-04-28 22:20:21 <Luke-Jr> dunno
2545 2013-04-28 22:20:31 <Luke-Jr> but what buZz is claiming it does, it doesn't
2546 2013-04-28 22:20:32 viperhr has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2547 2013-04-28 22:20:35 <Luke-Jr> not even BBE does
2548 2013-04-28 22:21:15 <gmaxwell> Abe is, howeverâ it works by basically implementing a mildly scary half-assed node implementation in SQL, and just loads the whole chain into that database. It has farily poor performance and needs tens of gigabytes of disk space (at least as of the last time I ran it)
2549 2013-04-28 22:21:15 <Luke-Jr> accounts are not visible in the blockchain, you'd need a wallet to see that
2550 2013-04-28 22:22:42 <buZz> well i am not going to proof myself :)
2551 2013-04-28 22:22:45 caedes has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2552 2013-04-28 22:22:51 <buZz> oooo caedes is here :D
2553 2013-04-28 22:22:56 <buZz> *was
2554 2013-04-28 22:23:07 <buZz> one of my fav spannynerds
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2557 2013-04-28 22:23:37 <Luke-Jr> travolta: addresses don't have balances really.
2558 2013-04-28 22:23:59 viperhr has joined
2559 2013-04-28 22:24:21 <Luke-Jr> travolta: wallets have balances, and accounts have balances. wallets use multiple addresses.
2560 2013-04-28 22:24:50 <Luke-Jr> and accounts are not associated to addresses at all (while addresses can be associated to accounts, the opposite isn't true)
2561 2013-04-28 22:27:25 <gmaxwell> ^ and maybe none of that matters for what you're actually doing, maybe it does. We can't tell, because we don't know. We do know that a lot of people who show up asking about "balances of addresses" actually don't get how wallets work and what they want to do (e.g. figure out how much bitcoin people own from the chain) can't be done.
2562 2013-04-28 22:28:11 amantonop has joined
2563 2013-04-28 22:28:35 <amantonop> good afternoon. how is everyone today?
2564 2013-04-28 22:28:58 <MC1984_> im ok g
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2606 2013-04-28 23:08:53 <travolta> hey sipa, had to have my dinner
2607 2013-04-28 23:09:01 <travolta> and had a fone call sorry I forgot to tell you guys
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2610 2013-04-28 23:10:50 <travolta> so I basically just want to be able to track incoming transactions to a list of bitcoin address, as there will not be any outgoing transactions... so I figure maintaining a balance based on those transactions shouldn't be too hard...
2611 2013-04-28 23:10:58 stretchwarren has joined
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2614 2013-04-28 23:11:07 <travolta> and not track them constantly, just on demand
2615 2013-04-28 23:11:26 <sipa> right, it's tracking incoming transactions you want
2616 2013-04-28 23:11:36 <travolta> yup
2617 2013-04-28 23:11:55 Nothing4You has joined
2618 2013-04-28 23:11:55 <sipa> currently the best option (if you stick with bitcoind) is indeed encrypt a wallet with a random password, en never move the password to the server
2619 2013-04-28 23:11:55 Nothing4You has quit (Excess Flood)
2620 2013-04-28 23:12:02 <sipa> but that's a crappy solution, admittedly
2621 2013-04-28 23:12:09 <travolta> yeah...
2622 2013-04-28 23:12:13 <travolta> is there a better way?
2623 2013-04-28 23:12:17 <sipa> for 0.9, i hope that watch-only addresses get in
2624 2013-04-28 23:12:24 <travolta> that doesn't involve a third party service?
2625 2013-04-28 23:12:25 Nothing4You has joined
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2627 2013-04-28 23:12:33 <travolta> yeah I hope so too
2628 2013-04-28 23:12:38 <sipa> i'm sure that pynode or bitcoinj can do these for you too
2629 2013-04-28 23:12:42 <travolta> is there a cap on number of addresses per wallet at present?
2630 2013-04-28 23:12:55 Nothing4You has joined
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2632 2013-04-28 23:13:00 <sipa> if you get near 100k, you'll get performance issues
2633 2013-04-28 23:13:00 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
2634 2013-04-28 23:13:15 <sipa> well, it's mostly many transactions that slows it down
2635 2013-04-28 23:13:22 <travolta> if I get near 100K then the solution is to redesign bitcoind a little?
2636 2013-04-28 23:13:22 <sipa> addresses is just longer startup time
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2643 2013-04-28 23:22:04 <travolta> so let me see if I get bitcoins correctly, can I generate multiple bitcoin addresses based on 1 private key and 1 public key?
2644 2013-04-28 23:24:10 <sipa> no, every address corresponds to exactly one keypair
2645 2013-04-28 23:24:18 <travolta> ok just making sure :P
2646 2013-04-28 23:25:15 <travolta> so I can import a batch/bulk of private keys/addresses to a wallet.dat somehow?
2647 2013-04-28 23:25:25 <travolta> Is there an automated way to do that?
2648 2013-04-28 23:27:01 <sipa> you can call importprivkey repeatedly, with rescan=false
2649 2013-04-28 23:27:23 <sipa> and then only rescan once at the end
2650 2013-04-28 23:27:35 <travolta> does each have to be manually inputed or can it read a text file?
2651 2013-04-28 23:27:39 <travolta> with a list of private keys?
2652 2013-04-28 23:29:10 <sipa> no, one call per private key, but you can do something like: while read KEY; do ./bitcoind importprivkey $KEY false; done <keys.txt
2653 2013-04-28 23:29:15 <sipa> if you have a list
2654 2013-04-28 23:29:36 <sipa> i plan to add a bulk import/export for 0.9 somewhere
2655 2013-04-28 23:30:31 <travolta> right just design an api interface to plug in to automate that reading process
2656 2013-04-28 23:30:46 <travolta> yeah you guys should be embarrassed for not already having added such feature :p
2657 2013-04-28 23:31:11 amantonop has left ()
2658 2013-04-28 23:31:19 <sipa> i'm not paid to spend nearly all my free time on bitcoin coding
2659 2013-04-28 23:31:22 <sipa> so i work on what i like
2660 2013-04-28 23:31:34 <travolta> boo you should get paid!
2661 2013-04-28 23:31:47 <travolta> isn't there anywhere were ppl contribute to dev?
2662 2013-04-28 23:31:58 <travolta> bitcoins payment wise?
2663 2013-04-28 23:32:13 Ad0 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2664 2013-04-28 23:32:30 <travolta> you guys should go to MtGox, and demand payment
2665 2013-04-28 23:32:34 <travolta> thats just my 2 cents ;P
2666 2013-04-28 23:33:12 <sipa> that'd be a waste of money, since i'll work on bitcoin anyway :p
2667 2013-04-28 23:33:20 <travolta> but why?
2668 2013-04-28 23:33:30 <travolta> whats in it for you?
2669 2013-04-28 23:33:49 <sipa> it's the most awesome experiment i know of, and i like to help it succeed
2670 2013-04-28 23:34:09 <travolta> goes gmaxwell get paid?
2671 2013-04-28 23:34:11 <travolta> *does
2672 2013-04-28 23:34:13 <sipa> no
2673 2013-04-28 23:34:21 <travolta> I don't understand you guys
2674 2013-04-28 23:34:22 <travolta> lo
2675 2013-04-28 23:34:24 <travolta> lol
2676 2013-04-28 23:34:31 <sipa> only gavin is paid, by the bitcoin foundation
2677 2013-04-28 23:34:37 <sipa> he works on it full-time
2678 2013-04-28 23:34:40 <travolta> ah
2679 2013-04-28 23:34:47 gglon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2681 2013-04-28 23:36:39 <travolta> just really hating the idea of keeping private keys in that wallet file
2682 2013-04-28 23:36:49 <travolta> isnt there a way to hack it to delete the private keys
2683 2013-04-28 23:36:56 graingert has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2684 2013-04-28 23:36:57 <travolta> and still get good functionality of transactions retrival?
2685 2013-04-28 23:37:21 <travolta> so only public keys and bitcoin addresses are kept in that wallet file?
2686 2013-04-28 23:38:06 <sipa> there's a pull request for watch-only address functionality
2687 2013-04-28 23:38:12 <travolta> because it comprimises security, I'll explain, if someone where to hack that master password, all the private keys would be compromises
2688 2013-04-28 23:38:23 <sipa> if you can compile from source, you may want to try that one
2689 2013-04-28 23:38:30 <travolta> yeah I can compile from source
2690 2013-04-28 23:38:35 <travolta> infact I did compile from source :P
2691 2013-04-28 23:38:42 <travolta> both windows and linux versions
2692 2013-04-28 23:38:49 <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2121
2693 2013-04-28 23:39:25 <travolta> oh that looks sexual
2694 2013-04-28 23:39:29 <travolta> I think I am gonna cum
2695 2013-04-28 23:39:31 <travolta> lol
2696 2013-04-28 23:39:39 <travolta> just looking at the changes made on that pull request
2697 2013-04-28 23:39:43 whiterabbit has joined
2698 2013-04-28 23:40:04 <travolta> I'm going to be sure to tip that guy later
2699 2013-04-28 23:40:07 <travolta> that made that pull request
2700 2013-04-28 23:40:10 <travolta> if it all works out
2701 2013-04-28 23:40:17 <Luke-Jr> travolta: you don't want to do anything like what you're talking about
2702 2013-04-28 23:40:27 <travolta> why not?
2703 2013-04-28 23:40:31 <Luke-Jr> travolta: I am at least 75% certain that you WILL lose your bitcoins
2704 2013-04-28 23:40:39 whiterab1it has joined
2705 2013-04-28 23:40:45 <travolta> nope I'm going to keep 2 wallet files
2706 2013-04-28 23:40:54 <travolta> 1 original, with all the private keys etc...
2707 2013-04-28 23:41:01 <travolta> and 1 phantom
2708 2013-04-28 23:41:03 <travolta> you understand?
2709 2013-04-28 23:41:14 <melvster> lmao ... i was just transferring some money from one bank acct to another ... they offered to do it 'urgent' which means in the next working day for $50!
2710 2013-04-28 23:41:26 <travolta> the original will be backed up like fuck.
2711 2013-04-28 23:41:26 <Luke-Jr> travolta: Bitcoin-Qt doesn't support that.
2712 2013-04-28 23:41:26 <travolta> like 1 trillion times
2713 2013-04-28 23:41:30 <Luke-Jr> travolta: you will lose bitcoins
2714 2013-04-28 23:41:31 <travolta> using bitcoind
2715 2013-04-28 23:41:36 <travolta> not bitcoin-qt
2716 2013-04-28 23:41:38 <Luke-Jr> bitcoind doesn't support it either
2717 2013-04-28 23:41:44 jaequery has joined
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2719 2013-04-28 23:42:11 <travolta> I'm lost.
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2721 2013-04-28 23:42:30 <sipa> Luke-Jr: not sure how he can lose coins, if he only has the keys to spend them in one place
2722 2013-04-28 23:42:33 <Luke-Jr> travolta: just use a good passphrase and stop trying to mess with private keys
2723 2013-04-28 23:42:34 <travolta> look at that pull request that was shown to me
2724 2013-04-28 23:42:44 <travolta> Luke-Jk I don't trust you language
2725 2013-04-28 23:42:45 <travolta> lol
2726 2013-04-28 23:42:49 <sipa> yes, his watch-only copy may get out of date, which means he might miss things
2727 2013-04-28 23:42:56 <travolta> you sound like the most dodgiest guy I seen in my life
2728 2013-04-28 23:43:04 <Luke-Jr> sipa: his understanding of the matter reflects on his ability to pull it off safely
2729 2013-04-28 23:43:04 <travolta> exactly sipa
2730 2013-04-28 23:43:06 <travolta> you understand
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2733 2013-04-28 23:43:20 <melvster> travolta: yeah definitely sipa should get paid!
2734 2013-04-28 23:43:25 <sipa> and i'm not sure it's the best solution (that would be BIP32 public derivation...:p), but if you know what you're doing it should work
2735 2013-04-28 23:43:39 <Luke-Jr> but he *doesn't* know what he's doing
2736 2013-04-28 23:43:39 * travolta slaps Luke-Jr with the world's largest trout infinite times in a infinitessimal small amount of time
2737 2013-04-28 23:43:40 richcollins has joined
2738 2013-04-28 23:43:42 <Luke-Jr> that's my point
2739 2013-04-28 23:43:50 <travolta> I don't know if you know what your saying
2740 2013-04-28 23:43:58 <travolta> I think you don't know what your doing
2741 2013-04-28 23:44:07 <sipa> i'm sure Luke-Jr knows what he's doing
2742 2013-04-28 23:44:24 <sipa> but he can have controversial opinions sometimes :)
2743 2013-04-28 23:44:30 whiterabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2744 2013-04-28 23:44:33 <travolta> its pretty simple like sipa said the phantom wallet, may get outdated
2745 2013-04-28 23:44:37 <travolta> if it does who cares?
2746 2013-04-28 23:44:42 <travolta> nothing important on it
2747 2013-04-28 23:44:51 <travolta> the private key holding wallet however will never be outdated
2748 2013-04-28 23:44:51 <monda7> what kinds of creative things can be done with the script part of a transaction?
2749 2013-04-28 23:44:53 ecolo has joined
2750 2013-04-28 23:44:54 <travolta> and will always be safe
2751 2013-04-28 23:44:57 <Luke-Jr> travolta: fine, so try it. just expect me to say "I told you so" when you lose your coins.
2752 2013-04-28 23:45:08 <travolta> why would I lose my coins
2753 2013-04-28 23:45:11 <travolta> explain that...
2754 2013-04-28 23:45:31 <travolta> if the private wallet will always be backed up and a completelly separate system from the phantom wallet
2755 2013-04-28 23:45:38 <melvster> if it's backed up a trillion times ... you have a trillion points of failure ... :)
2756 2013-04-28 23:45:39 <travolta> I don't understand your thinking...
2757 2013-04-28 23:45:49 <travolta> quite the contrary :P
2758 2013-04-28 23:45:56 <travolta> well I exagerated
2759 2013-04-28 23:46:02 <travolta> it will be backed up in different forms
2760 2013-04-28 23:46:05 <travolta> multiple times
2761 2013-04-28 23:46:13 <travolta> with historical backups
2762 2013-04-28 23:46:25 <travolta> so if something goes wrong I can go back in time
2763 2013-04-28 23:46:30 <Luke-Jr> travolta: my thinking is that you probably don't comprehend how bitcoin works enough to pull it off safely and securely. and again, I'm only 75% sure, not 100%
2764 2013-04-28 23:46:31 <travolta> isnt that safe enough?
2765 2013-04-28 23:46:32 jaequery has quit (Client Quit)
2766 2013-04-28 23:46:43 <Luke-Jr> you can't send the blockchain back in time
2767 2013-04-28 23:46:47 <travolta> so say I added new private addresses...
2768 2013-04-28 23:46:53 <travolta> to a wallet file
2769 2013-04-28 23:47:00 <travolta> something gets corrupt
2770 2013-04-28 23:47:09 <travolta> I will only lose the new private keys with their holding bitcoins
2771 2013-04-28 23:47:23 <travolta> because I can go back to a past backup file of wallet.dat
2772 2013-04-28 23:47:29 <sipa> travolta: you're aware of how change addresses work?
2773 2013-04-28 23:47:34 <travolta> and see the state that previous wallet was left
2774 2013-04-28 23:47:40 <Luke-Jr> travolta: what you don't get is that bitcoind is creating new addresses behind your back all the time
2775 2013-04-28 23:47:43 <Luke-Jr> travolta: and not telling you
2776 2013-04-28 23:48:01 <travolta> ...
2777 2013-04-28 23:48:12 <travolta> why would it do that?
2778 2013-04-28 23:48:19 <Luke-Jr> that's how the abstraction works
2779 2013-04-28 23:48:28 <sipa> only when you make new transactions
2780 2013-04-28 23:48:34 <sipa> it generates new addresses to send the change to
2781 2013-04-28 23:48:46 <travolta> thats optional though isnt it?
2782 2013-04-28 23:48:49 <sipa> no
2783 2013-04-28 23:48:58 <monda7> incomplete transactions are not propagated...correct?
2784 2013-04-28 23:49:01 <Luke-Jr> travolta: it's necessary for the bitcoin protocol to work properly
2785 2013-04-28 23:49:03 PhantomSpark has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2786 2013-04-28 23:49:10 <Luke-Jr> monda7: incomplete?
2787 2013-04-28 23:49:11 chorao has joined
2788 2013-04-28 23:49:27 <travolta> sipa you just said each private key corresponds to 1 address?
2789 2013-04-28 23:49:28 <sipa> Luke-Jr: meh, that's stupid - change or even addresses don't exist at the protocol level
2790 2013-04-28 23:49:31 <sipa> travolta: yes
2791 2013-04-28 23:49:38 wamatt has quit (Quit: wamatt)
2792 2013-04-28 23:49:40 <travolta> ok I am lost then
2793 2013-04-28 23:49:50 <travolta> isnt a private key in essense a wallet?
2794 2013-04-28 23:49:52 <Luke-Jr> sipa: the necessity of change does
2795 2013-04-28 23:49:53 <monda7> Luke-Jr: hrm. i guess I don't know what I mean
2796 2013-04-28 23:49:56 <Luke-Jr> travolta: no
2797 2013-04-28 23:49:57 <travolta> in a manner of speaking
2798 2013-04-28 23:50:00 <sipa> travolta: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Change
2799 2013-04-28 23:50:03 <sipa> travolta: read that first
2800 2013-04-28 23:50:07 <Luke-Jr> travolta: a wallet is a collection of private keys; every transaction uses its own keypair
2801 2013-04-28 23:50:26 wamatt has joined
2802 2013-04-28 23:50:47 <travolta> wow thats gay :(
2803 2013-04-28 23:50:49 <monda7> sometimes when using bitcoind to create a transaction i get a flag that says 'incomplete'
2804 2013-04-28 23:51:09 <Luke-Jr> monda7: are you doing raw transaction stuff?
2805 2013-04-28 23:51:21 andyh2 has joined
2806 2013-04-28 23:51:34 <monda7> Luke-Jr: yes
2807 2013-04-28 23:51:38 <travolta> I think I am starting to understand it now
2808 2013-04-28 23:51:49 <travolta> it has to do with the way it handles a bitcoin balance
2809 2013-04-28 23:51:51 <sipa> travolta: there is something to it... if you reason about bitcoin in terms of 'address balances', you likely don't know about how the wallet abstraction works
2810 2013-04-28 23:51:57 <travolta> yeah
2811 2013-04-28 23:52:00 <travolta> I understand it now
2812 2013-04-28 23:52:00 <travolta> wow
2813 2013-04-28 23:52:06 <travolta> :-(
2814 2013-04-28 23:52:28 <travolta> so each time it sends "change" its in essense creating a new pair of keys
2815 2013-04-28 23:52:56 <sipa> yes, though there is something that'll help you
2816 2013-04-28 23:53:02 <Luke-Jr> travolta: the reason every output needs a unique key is because the entire network's privacy depends on the difficulty of tying people together
2817 2013-04-28 23:53:11 <sipa> travolta: the wallet contains a set of 100 "future keys"
2818 2013-04-28 23:53:29 <sipa> which aren't exposed yet, but new keys are taken from that set first
2819 2013-04-28 23:53:42 <Luke-Jr> travolta: note that if you wait long enough, sipa is working on a "HD wallet" format that makes things like what you want to do easier
2820 2013-04-28 23:53:44 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2821 2013-04-28 23:53:59 <sipa> that means that if you have a backup of a wallet file, it will be good for another 100 future transactions
2822 2013-04-28 23:54:10 <sipa> but yes, BIP32 public derivation is probably what you want
2823 2013-04-28 23:54:28 <travolta> but if that wallet is just "recieving coins" it should be good permanently right?
2824 2013-04-28 23:54:41 <sipa> if you absolutely only receive, yes
2825 2013-04-28 23:54:42 <travolta> if I am understanding how the bitcoin protocol is working correctly
2826 2013-04-28 23:54:44 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
2827 2013-04-28 23:54:46 <travolta> ok
2828 2013-04-28 23:54:48 <travolta> I get it now
2829 2013-04-28 23:55:10 <Luke-Jr> travolta: note that you shouldn't receive on an address more than once, still
2830 2013-04-28 23:55:13 dust-otc has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2831 2013-04-28 23:55:28 <travolta> in theoretically a single private key can hold 21 million bitcoins?
2832 2013-04-28 23:55:34 <sipa> yes
2833 2013-04-28 23:55:39 amantonop has joined
2834 2013-04-28 23:55:41 <sipa> a bit less, but yes
2835 2013-04-28 23:55:42 <travolta> even that possibility would make them virtually worthless :P
2836 2013-04-28 23:55:45 <travolta> cool.
2837 2013-04-28 23:55:53 <Luke-Jr> doing so compromises privacy of all bitcoin users, and could in the future compromise your bitcoin security as quantum computing gets closer to completion
2838 2013-04-28 23:56:04 <sipa> addresses aren't intended to be reused indeed, they're cheap anyway
2839 2013-04-28 23:56:12 <travolta> yeah their cheap :)
2840 2013-04-28 23:56:37 <travolta> and there are trillions of trillions of them right?
2841 2013-04-28 23:56:47 <travolta> :P
2842 2013-04-28 23:56:59 <sipa> 2^160 potential pay-to-pubkeyhash addresses
2843 2013-04-28 23:57:31 <travolta> cant somehow however make a map deriving from 1 transaction or 1 address?
2844 2013-04-28 23:57:39 <travolta> to see historical?
2845 2013-04-28 23:57:44 <sipa> yes
2846 2013-04-28 23:57:44 stalled has joined
2847 2013-04-28 23:57:46 <travolta> of where the coins originated
2848 2013-04-28 23:57:47 <travolta> etc
2849 2013-04-28 23:58:06 <monda7> I'm reading this http://codinginmysleep.com/exotic-transaction-types-with-bitcoin/. Are lock times possible without changing every client? Could I create a locktime transaction using bitcoind?
2850 2013-04-28 23:58:10 <travolta> not exactly annonymous then its just obfuscated
2851 2013-04-28 23:58:22 <sipa> it's pseudonymous
2852 2013-04-28 23:58:22 andyh2 has quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com)
2853 2013-04-28 23:58:55 <travolta> ya
2854 2013-04-28 23:59:21 Diapolis has joined
2855 2013-04-28 23:59:31 <travolta> another question Bitcoin-Address-Utility can it be trusted?
2856 2013-04-28 23:59:36 grug has left ()
2857 2013-04-28 23:59:45 <travolta> you know that c# utility
2858 2013-04-28 23:59:54 <sipa> no idea, never heard about it
2859 2013-04-28 23:59:57 <travolta> my consern it I havent looked into it indepth