1 2013-05-05 00:00:38 <CodeShark> I suppose to really support this it would require knowing what transaction(s) claimed those outputs in the first place
   2 2013-05-05 00:00:45 resinate has joined
   3 2013-05-05 00:01:07 <CodeShark> yeah, it's not a trivial fix
   4 2013-05-05 00:01:10 <BTCOxygen> error while loading shared libraries: libdb_cxx-4.8.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
   5 2013-05-05 00:01:31 <BTCOxygen> When I run ./bitcoind it prints the following error.
   6 2013-05-05 00:01:41 sud3n has joined
   7 2013-05-05 00:01:43 <CodeShark> make sure you have berkeley db installed. make sure it is in your lib path
   8 2013-05-05 00:02:14 <BTCOxygen> CodeShark: I know where the lib files are., How do I specify the location to bitcoind ?
   9 2013-05-05 00:02:50 <BTCOxygen> >>>  /usr/local/BerkeleyDB.4.8/lib
  10 2013-05-05 00:03:02 x0watt has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  11 2013-05-05 00:03:02 <CodeShark> make sure it is in your system library path
  12 2013-05-05 00:03:17 Guest40625 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 20.0/20130329030352])
  13 2013-05-05 00:04:18 <CodeShark> add it to /etc/ld.so.conf.d/libc.conf or whatever file it is for your OS
  14 2013-05-05 00:04:47 <helo> need escrow, paying 4.8%
  15 2013-05-05 00:04:54 <helo> sorry, wrong chan :/
  16 2013-05-05 00:05:16 <BTCOxygen> CodeShark: Thanks.
  17 2013-05-05 00:05:20 <BTCOxygen> Working now...
  18 2013-05-05 00:05:31 <BTCOxygen> helo: PM sent.
  19 2013-05-05 00:07:19 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  20 2013-05-05 00:07:27 <sipa> CodeShark: there is gettxout ?
  21 2013-05-05 00:07:41 <sipa> CodeShark: but i don't like the idea of wallets needing to depend on the presence of a UTXO set
  22 2013-05-05 00:08:16 <CodeShark> sipa: it's trickier than just knowing whether it's spent or not, though
  23 2013-05-05 00:08:19 rdymac has joined
  24 2013-05-05 00:08:29 <CodeShark> although knowing that it is spent is a good indication you shouldn't trust the transaction :)
  25 2013-05-05 00:08:33 <sipa> CodeShark: if your wallet is up to date, you know that anyway?
  26 2013-05-05 00:09:52 <CodeShark> no, I mean, if a transaction has 0 confirmations it could either mean it simply hasn't gotten into a block or that it (or a dependency) conflicts with the block chain or memory pool
  27 2013-05-05 00:10:13 HM has joined
  28 2013-05-05 00:10:49 <CodeShark> if you query the txouts that the transaction claims and they are spent, how can you tell whether it was this transaction itself that claimed them or another?
  29 2013-05-05 00:10:54 sud3n has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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  31 2013-05-05 00:12:15 <sipa> your wallet should track conflicts
  32 2013-05-05 00:12:17 <CodeShark> does gettxout work for arbitrary transactions without txindex?
  33 2013-05-05 00:12:21 <sipa> yes
  34 2013-05-05 00:12:26 <sipa> it queries the UTXO set
  35 2013-05-05 00:13:11 <CodeShark> right, but it only returns data for unspent outs
  36 2013-05-05 00:13:18 <sipa> yes
  37 2013-05-05 00:13:24 HM2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  38 2013-05-05 00:13:49 <CodeShark> and for the wallet to track conflicts it would need to maintain its own mempool
  39 2013-05-05 00:14:06 <sipa> no
  40 2013-05-05 00:14:08 h2odysee has joined
  41 2013-05-05 00:14:24 <sipa> well, to be complete, yes
  42 2013-05-05 00:14:43 bitfreak has joined
  43 2013-05-05 00:14:53 <sipa> but just watching from transactions that spend your wallet transaction's inputs is already a good step
  44 2013-05-05 00:14:56 <sipa> *for
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  46 2013-05-05 00:15:23 <CodeShark> chaining multiple transactions is common for doublespending
  47 2013-05-05 00:15:24 <sipa> but i guess you need a full mempool to check for conflicts with ancestors
  48 2013-05-05 00:15:41 <h2odysee> in the rpc api, does "Account" mean "label"?
  49 2013-05-05 00:15:47 <sipa> h2odysee: yes and no
  50 2013-05-05 00:15:49 <CodeShark> if it can't detect conflicts with ancestors it's too easy to circumvent for an attacker
  51 2013-05-05 00:16:00 <sipa> CodeShark: yeah
  52 2013-05-05 00:16:27 <h2odysee> I'm trying to send coins from a specific address I own. sendfrom take an "account" param, instead of an address, so it doesn't work for me. how do i do this?
  53 2013-05-05 00:16:30 <sipa> h2odysee: if an address has a label L, transactions spending to that address will credit account L
  54 2013-05-05 00:16:44 <sipa> h2odysee: accounts have _nothing_ to do with coin selection
  55 2013-05-05 00:17:04 <sipa> all coins in the wallets are always shared among all accounts
  56 2013-05-05 00:17:09 bitfreak has left ()
  57 2013-05-05 00:17:24 <CodeShark> accounts just place artificial limits on balance when you try to send from them
  58 2013-05-05 00:17:25 <buZz> ahh thats how accounts can go negative
  59 2013-05-05 00:17:46 <sipa> CodeShark: not even that
  60 2013-05-05 00:17:57 <CodeShark> oh, lol - hehe
  61 2013-05-05 00:18:01 <CodeShark> yeah, they can go negative
  62 2013-05-05 00:18:08 <hpprinter100> is it possible to delete Incoming from? in bitcoind?
  63 2013-05-05 00:18:18 <h2odysee> so I can receive coins from address 'abc', then send the coins out from address 'def', as long as they are both in the same account?
  64 2013-05-05 00:18:51 <CodeShark> the wallet chooses from where to send coins by itself (unless you use createrawtransaction)
  65 2013-05-05 00:19:01 <sipa> h2odysee: stop thinking that coins belong to accounts
  66 2013-05-05 00:19:02 <h2odysee> ah ok. I need to use createrawtransaction then.
  67 2013-05-05 00:19:16 <CodeShark> where it sends coins from has nothing to do with what accounts the addresses belong to
  68 2013-05-05 00:19:18 <sipa> coins belong to the wallet, accounts are just numbers
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  71 2013-05-05 00:20:39 <h2odysee> the blockchain only knows about addresses, right? it doesn't know about accounts/wallets?
  72 2013-05-05 00:20:49 <CodeShark> correct
  73 2013-05-05 00:23:17 <copumpkin> it doesn't even know about addresses at the most basic level
  74 2013-05-05 00:23:28 <Luke-Jr> h2odysee: yes, that's where the basic level of privacy comes from
  75 2013-05-05 00:23:34 <Luke-Jr> and what copumpkin says
  76 2013-05-05 00:23:38 <copumpkin> addresses live in a mini programming language that lives within the blocks themselves
  77 2013-05-05 00:24:31 <CodeShark> the term "address" is a bit of a misnomer
  78 2013-05-05 00:24:37 <CodeShark> it is an unfortunate bit of nomenclature
  79 2013-05-05 00:25:01 <copumpkin> because people think there should be a source, too?
  80 2013-05-05 00:25:14 <h2odysee> if I use sendtoaddress, how does it choose which address it sends from?
  81 2013-05-05 00:25:29 <CodeShark> because each transaction script validation is completely independent from all others
  82 2013-05-05 00:25:30 <Luke-Jr> copumpkin: well, that's silly because mail doesn't have source either
  83 2013-05-05 00:25:37 <Luke-Jr> email does, but that's easily spoofed
  84 2013-05-05 00:25:44 <sipa> h2odysee: it doesn't send "from" an address
  85 2013-05-05 00:25:46 <Luke-Jr> snail mail just has a return address, which works fine for bitcoin too
  86 2013-05-05 00:25:52 <sipa> h2odysee: bitcoin transactions do not have from address
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  88 2013-05-05 00:26:11 <copumpkin> Luke-Jr: conceptualy it does have a single "source" though (marked or not), for all of those, which bitcoin doesn't even have
  89 2013-05-05 00:26:16 <sipa> h2odysee: they send specific coins, and those coins can potentially be assigned to a distinguishable address (which they were preciously sent to)
  90 2013-05-05 00:26:23 <copumpkin> the return address is kind of ill-defined for more interesting transaction types
  91 2013-05-05 00:26:39 <Luke-Jr> copumpkin: by return address, I mean one the user provides before payment
  92 2013-05-05 00:26:43 <sipa> h2odysee: the wallet picks coins in a way that minimizes the number of coins needed as input
  93 2013-05-05 00:26:44 <Luke-Jr> copumpkin: eg, the payment protocol
  94 2013-05-05 00:26:46 <copumpkin> ah, fair enough
  95 2013-05-05 00:26:49 <CodeShark> two different transactions spending to the same "address" actually create two completely separate outputs, each which must be claimed separately. The only thing they share is that the same private key can be used to claim them.
  96 2013-05-05 00:26:54 <sipa> h2odysee: what addresses those coins belong to is ignored
  97 2013-05-05 00:27:39 <CodeShark> it's not like the system routes the transactions to the same place
  98 2013-05-05 00:27:39 <h2odysee> but looking in blockchain explorer, there is clearly a from and to hex number.
  99 2013-05-05 00:27:55 <CodeShark> it's very different than a mailbox or a house
 100 2013-05-05 00:27:55 <Luke-Jr> h2odysee: the from is a coin, not an address
 101 2013-05-05 00:28:03 <sipa> h2odysee: yes, it shows the address the input coins belonged to
 102 2013-05-05 00:28:07 franl has joined
 103 2013-05-05 00:28:11 <Luke-Jr> sipa: BBE doesn't IIRC O.o
 104 2013-05-05 00:28:16 <sipa> oh!
 105 2013-05-05 00:28:29 <Luke-Jr> just the coin txid:index
 106 2013-05-05 00:28:38 <sipa> the address as well
 107 2013-05-05 00:28:40 <copumpkin> blockchain.info shows source addresses
 108 2013-05-05 00:28:51 <sipa> but at least it shows the txid:index too, which is hidden on b.i
 109 2013-05-05 00:29:18 <CodeShark> blockchain.info has a link to the txout it claims
 110 2013-05-05 00:29:21 <Luke-Jr> bah, it does
 111 2013-05-05 00:29:24 <copumpkin> :)
 112 2013-05-05 00:30:40 <CodeShark> an email address does sort of make sense as an address in the sense that a POP/IMAP server must exist somewhere on the network where the messages are stored
 113 2013-05-05 00:31:20 <CodeShark> so the address gives SMTP servers the information they need to relay it properly
 114 2013-05-05 00:31:53 <CodeShark> but bitcoins aren't really "stored" anywhere
 115 2013-05-05 00:32:09 <CodeShark> they are always in plain view
 116 2013-05-05 00:32:45 <CodeShark> it would be like if everyone's emails were always in plain view but you needed a secret key to be able to read the ones that are yours
 117 2013-05-05 00:33:27 sydna has joined
 118 2013-05-05 00:34:20 <Luke-Jr> I like gmaxwell's "obfuscated mined transactions" idea
 119 2013-05-05 00:35:41 <CodeShark> google isn't really helping with that one, Luke-Jr: p
 120 2013-05-05 00:35:56 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: I think he posted about it to the ML
 121 2013-05-05 00:36:23 <CodeShark> can you summarize the gist of it? or give a link?
 122 2013-05-05 00:36:48 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: basically addresses use the SHA256(pubkey) instead of the RIPEMD160(SHA256(pubkey))
 123 2013-05-05 00:37:02 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: but outputs still use the full RIPEMD160
 124 2013-05-05 00:37:16 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: and when relaying, you have to prove you have the SHA256(pubkey)
 125 2013-05-05 00:37:29 <Luke-Jr> which you can't find after it's in a block
 126 2013-05-05 00:37:50 <Luke-Jr> so the source coin's address is unknown
 127 2013-05-05 00:38:09 <Luke-Jr> (the original goal was to make it so people couldn't store specific data in outputs)
 128 2013-05-05 00:39:23 <CodeShark> hmm, was this in response to that file insertion tool that was put in the block chain? :)
 129 2013-05-05 00:40:02 toffoo has joined
 130 2013-05-05 00:40:23 <sipa> not at all!!!
 131 2013-05-05 00:40:31 <CodeShark> you could still do steganography, no? just much less efficient
 132 2013-05-05 00:41:06 <CodeShark> you might only be able to practically encode a few bits per output
 133 2013-05-05 00:41:17 systemParanoid has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 134 2013-05-05 00:41:53 <CodeShark> as opposed to 20 bytes per output using standard transactions
 135 2013-05-05 00:42:24 <CodeShark> or more than 20 if you also encode information in the amount
 136 2013-05-05 00:42:57 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: it'd make it a lot more expensive and NOT plaintext
 137 2013-05-05 00:43:27 <Luke-Jr> you'd need to mine the RIPEMD160 result for the bits you want, and pay a higher cost
 138 2013-05-05 00:43:47 <CodeShark> right, that's my point
 139 2013-05-05 00:43:59 <CodeShark> but still possible :)
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 152 2013-05-05 01:03:38 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: yes, but with exponential cost of bits per output.
 153 2013-05-05 01:04:03 <gmaxwell> and so that makes it vastly easier to discourage since it creates a enormous cost factor difference between the intended use of bitcoin and the abusive ones.
 154 2013-05-05 01:04:09 X-Factor has quit (Quit: ThrashIRC v2.8 sic populo comunicated)
 155 2013-05-05 01:04:51 <gmaxwell> (part of the problem with discouraging abusive ones is that people will pay _more_ per byte for abuse than for currency uses in some cases, so something additional is needed in order to seperate the currency uses from the non-currency uses)
 156 2013-05-05 01:04:58 Casimir1904 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
 157 2013-05-05 01:07:35 <gmaxwell> (there are some more subtle things— like, sure you could embed tiny amounts of data like that— but tiny amounts can trivially be embedded everywhere... code them into your name and sign petitions on whitehouse.gov)
 158 2013-05-05 01:08:55 <gmaxwell> so long as the pointers to where to find the data have more entropy than the data itself the terrorists cannot win^w^w^wmisuse isn't very concerning.
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 161 2013-05-05 01:16:06 <jspilman> why is it so much less appealing to using P2SH and then stuff data into the ScriptSig and redeemScript when I spend the coins back to myself? We would need something like MTUT to be able to actually permanently throw away that data, right?
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 165 2013-05-05 01:26:42 <jspilman> I mean, why does an attacker care if their data is in UTXO versus a spent output? Ultimately you have to be able to trace coins back to coinbase? You know, fully validating nodes and such.
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 178 2013-05-05 01:41:42 <gmaxwell> jspilman: no, a fully validing node can happily discard old data that isn't in the txout set. "MTUT" has nothing to do with this— to even apply it to 'help' there would require a fundimental reduction in security to SPV level for historical data.
 179 2013-05-05 01:42:17 <gmaxwell> jspilman: it just means that most fully validating nodes wouldn't have the data, and that any junk data would be moved into scriptsigs where its outside of the working set and thus least expensive for the network.
 180 2013-05-05 01:43:49 <gmaxwell> it's also easier to filter junk data out of scriptsigs, because standard txn scriptsigs don't have as much degrees of freedom. E.g. you can raise fees on txn that have high entropy parts that aren't confined.
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 189 2013-05-05 01:55:04 <jspilman> gmaxwell: if nodes discard data after validating, the day will come where you can't start from genesis and validate the whole chain? I guess practical limits are equally likely to make it difficult to actually obtain a true and complete copy of the block chain eventually?
 190 2013-05-05 01:55:55 zylche__ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 191 2013-05-05 01:57:07 <gmaxwell> jspilman: "most nodes don't need to" is not the same as "all nodes", not at all the same. If you can't get the historical data, you have no way to know if people didn't steal a bunch of lost coins before you showed up. I don't see any reason why it would become difficult to obtain the historical data eventually. Certantly bitcoin's security model assumes this won't be the case.
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 195 2013-05-05 01:59:40 <jspilman> gmaxwell: so attackers should be more than happy paying to store their data in scriptSig in that case :-) The question I'm thinking about is, why is UTXO so much more expensive than scriptSig?  The common answer is,
 196 2013-05-05 02:00:56 <jspilman> gmaxwell: it needs to be relatively fast to access. I'm wondering, is there any way to know the total fee before looking up the utxo on disk? then you can decide if it's worth the disk IO
 197 2013-05-05 02:02:18 <gmaxwell> jspilman: ... because it must be on _all_ validating nodes.
 198 2013-05-05 02:02:48 <jspilman> assuming it is spendable
 199 2013-05-05 02:02:53 <gmaxwell> (or fetched via some even more expensive and risk producing remote IO)
 200 2013-05-05 02:03:16 <jspilman> gmaxwell: if the tx data included the fee, and it was validated as part of relay, then utxo is no longer special.  if someone asks to spend a uxto which is backed up on a tape drive in the basement, they just better pay for you to load it to RAM or you just drop the transaction and don't mine it
 201 2013-05-05 02:03:31 <gmaxwell> jspilman: uh. no.
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 204 2013-05-05 02:04:02 <jspilman> ok, I'll think about it some more :-)
 205 2013-05-05 02:04:13 <gmaxwell> Please think this through a little more. I think you're mistaking bitcoin as a distributed-centeralized system controlled by miners, rather than a decenteralized one. :)
 206 2013-05-05 02:04:37 <gmaxwell> (hint: it isn't just a single miner that has to go and fetch that utxo)
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 244 2013-05-05 02:58:30 <cjd> hey guys, syncing up 8.x and I noticed a lot of "ProcessBlock: ORPHAN BLOCK, prev=0000" in the log. I would have thought such old orphans would be gone and forgotten.
 245 2013-05-05 02:59:01 <sipa> they're not orphans, just blocks downloaded in non-sequential order
 246 2013-05-05 02:59:08 <cjd> ahh gotchya
 247 2013-05-05 02:59:10 <cjd> thx
 248 2013-05-05 02:59:51 <sipa> note that the code uses orphan in the correct meaning of "without parent", and not the god-knows-why meaning of "block that is not part of the main chain"
 249 2013-05-05 03:00:19 fiesh has joined
 250 2013-05-05 03:00:50 <cjd> yeah, it makes perfect sense now. BTW: great job on the fast syncing
 251 2013-05-05 03:01:36 <The_Fly> http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/please-sir-can-i-have-some-moar.jpg
 252 2013-05-05 03:01:49 XertroV has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 253 2013-05-05 03:03:25 <sipa> yes
 254 2013-05-05 03:03:26 franl has quit (Quit: O Elbereth!  Gilthoniel!  We still remember ...)
 255 2013-05-05 03:03:29 <sipa> :p
 256 2013-05-05 03:08:12 <The_Fly> woot, happy orphan :)
 257 2013-05-05 03:08:54 kuzetsa has quit (Quit: Stop doing that it. You don't want it to fall off.)
 258 2013-05-05 03:09:52 aceat64 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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 260 2013-05-05 03:12:10 <cjd> so how bout that BIP for sending a client to an http URL to get 2 weeks of blocks? :)
 261 2013-05-05 03:12:37 <cjd> because right now my bottleneck is downloading
 262 2013-05-05 03:14:44 <sipa> there's a bootstrap.dat torrent
 263 2013-05-05 03:16:10 <amiller> sipa, what's the short hand for block-that-is-not-in-the-main-chain?
 264 2013-05-05 03:16:20 <The_Fly> cjd: and you could pass blocks/chainstate around your network pretty fast
 265 2013-05-05 03:16:22 <The_Fly> couldn't he?
 266 2013-05-05 03:17:01 <sipa> amiller: extinct block, disconnected block, stale block, side block, ...
 267 2013-05-05 03:18:10 <amiller> side block is maybe my favourite of those...
 268 2013-05-05 03:18:14 <cjd> The_Fly: just by watching my debug.log, it appears that network latency, out-of-order and other little issues are the main cause of slowness
 269 2013-05-05 03:18:44 <sipa> cjd: for initial sync, it's best to just connect to a single node (-connect=IP)
 270 2013-05-05 03:18:47 dust-otc has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 271 2013-05-05 03:18:49 <sipa> and set dbcache high
 272 2013-05-05 03:19:16 <cjd> ahh right, db flushes
 273 2013-05-05 03:19:28 <The_Fly> torrenting the data in the client is an interesting idea
 274 2013-05-05 03:19:51 <The_Fly> but for the lazy
 275 2013-05-05 03:20:10 <The_Fly> or maybe better referred to as "efficient"
 276 2013-05-05 03:20:22 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
 277 2013-05-05 03:20:29 XertroV has joined
 278 2013-05-05 03:20:34 <cjd> well, I imagine eventually we will prune everything at the highest lockin and the amount to download will be less
 279 2013-05-05 03:21:44 <The_Fly> connecting to a single client sounds good, but user has to figure out the most local (if they can)
 280 2013-05-05 03:21:58 <cjd> could probably ship an exe with the "state" at the highest lockin so it only has to d/l blocks past that, unless you have an interest in historical data
 281 2013-05-05 03:22:09 <The_Fly> true
 282 2013-05-05 03:22:20 <sipa> cjd: means you have to trust the software distributor with data that cannot be validated
 283 2013-05-05 03:22:58 <cjd> well... you trust the distributor when you run the code
 284 2013-05-05 03:23:20 <sipa> well, it's open source and built deterministically
 285 2013-05-05 03:23:25 <shesek> are there any estimates anywhere on the number of machines running miners?
 286 2013-05-05 03:23:37 <sipa> you can verify the builds, and check the source code
 287 2013-05-05 03:23:48 <sipa> and even better, others can do the same
 288 2013-05-05 03:23:52 <cjd> yeah, the derivation of the state-at-lockin could be done with gitian as well IMO
 289 2013-05-05 03:24:03 <The_Fly> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Checkpoint_Lockin
 290 2013-05-05 03:24:04 <sipa> that's an interesting idea
 291 2013-05-05 03:24:21 <gonffen> does anybody know off the top of their head roughly where incoming connection limits are established in the source?
 292 2013-05-05 03:24:31 <The_Fly> "PPCoin uses an ongoing "central checkpointing pulse" that isn't updated only on software updates."
 293 2013-05-05 03:24:40 <The_Fly> that sounds vulnerable
 294 2013-05-05 03:25:20 <cjd> gonffen: IIRC it's a flag when you start the client
 295 2013-05-05 03:25:34 <cjd> but remember to turn up your file descriptor count before playing
 296 2013-05-05 03:25:48 <gonffen> I didn't run it with any flags...
 297 2013-05-05 03:26:08 <gonffen> I'm actually concerned about litecoin-qt
 298 2013-05-05 03:26:13 <gonffen> for some reason I have 60 connections
 299 2013-05-05 03:26:17 <gonffen> it was up to 63 for a bit
 300 2013-05-05 03:26:31 <gonffen> seems like a horrible idea
 301 2013-05-05 03:26:58 <sipa> git head automatically raises file descriptors if necessary and possible
 302 2013-05-05 03:27:29 <cjd> -maxconnections
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 306 2013-05-05 03:29:08 <cjd> ERROR: ProcessBlock() : already have block 129442 00000000000002ce894fe7d9c421fab742ef656ca753fe95c338fdd3bd0d69da
 307 2013-05-05 03:29:09 <cjd> Misbehaving: 58.47.122.218:8333 (0 -> 0)
 308 2013-05-05 03:29:17 <gonffen> I should probably not look through code this evening anyways...
 309 2013-05-05 03:29:20 <cjd> ^^ Ask everyone for blocks, complain about duplicates ?
 310 2013-05-05 03:31:00 <sipa> cjd: bingo
 311 2013-05-05 03:31:24 <ProfMac_> I have a transaction in block 234567 :-)
 312 2013-05-05 03:33:23 <cjd> never attribute to malice what can adaquately be explained by lazieness :)
 313 2013-05-05 03:36:31 <cjd> has there been any discussion of a protobuf protocol? it would be annoying in the short term maintaining 2 of everything but in the long term you could dump serialize.h and alt client devs would have a much easier time.
 314 2013-05-05 03:36:51 <sipa> cjd: unfortunately, not possible
 315 2013-05-05 03:37:11 <sipa> as the serializations are used for hashes
 316 2013-05-05 03:37:40 <sipa> (well, it would be possible as long as you have a serialize-only version of the old code, just to compute hashes)
 317 2013-05-05 03:38:12 <cjd> ahh right
 318 2013-05-05 03:38:22 <cjd> so the transaction format is forever
 319 2013-05-05 03:38:39 <cjd> block header format too... so that kinda kills it
 320 2013-05-05 03:38:48 kuzetsa has joined
 321 2013-05-05 03:42:15 * sipa has a bitcoind that doesn't need OpenSSL/EC!
 322 2013-05-05 03:42:17 * sipa sleeps
 323 2013-05-05 03:43:33 <cjd> ooo
 324 2013-05-05 03:43:37 <cjd> I saw your repo
 325 2013-05-05 03:43:40 <freewil> what version was getbloctemplate added to the api
 326 2013-05-05 03:46:02 <cjd> hah
 327 2013-05-05 03:46:10 <cjd> you could compact bootstrap.dat
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 329 2013-05-05 03:47:36 <cjd> so you have just one block with one coinbase transaction which pays out btc to every address which has btc
 330 2013-05-05 03:47:42 <cjd> basically constant folding for the chain
 331 2013-05-05 03:48:09 <sipa> eh no
 332 2013-05-05 03:48:16 <sipa> that would be unvalidatable
 333 2013-05-05 03:48:16 <cjd> as long as the clients are ok with a single block which violates every rule ever...
 334 2013-05-05 03:48:27 <sipa> that defeats the purpose
 335 2013-05-05 03:48:46 normanrichards has joined
 336 2013-05-05 03:48:52 <cjd> well, I'm assuming the client has received this compacted bootstrap from a trusted source
 337 2013-05-05 03:48:57 <sipa> if you're going to trust someone to give you something unverifiable, just use a lightweight client
 338 2013-05-05 03:49:11 <sipa> which doesn't need a trusted database in the first place
 339 2013-05-05 03:49:15 normanrichards has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 340 2013-05-05 03:49:19 twobits has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 341 2013-05-05 03:49:39 <sipa> or if you have a really trusted source (like yourself), just copy the datadir
 342 2013-05-05 03:49:47 <cjd> annoying thing with light clients for me is the fact that they can't discover that they have been paid by looking at the chain
 343 2013-05-05 03:49:58 <sipa> huh?
 344 2013-05-05 03:50:14 <cjd> ok, guess the one I was looking at is lighter than others
 345 2013-05-05 03:50:26 <sipa> i mean SPV nodes like Multibit and Bitcoin Wallet for Android
 346 2013-05-05 03:50:36 <cjd> I was looking at picocoin which apparently needs to get a payment broadcast to it to know it was paid
 347 2013-05-05 03:50:42 <cjd> sorry
 348 2013-05-05 03:50:45 peddamat has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 349 2013-05-05 03:51:23 <cjd> this non-openssl ECC thing, fast?
 350 2013-05-05 03:51:28 <sipa> very
 351 2013-05-05 03:51:32 XRPTrader2 has quit (Quit: XRPTrader2)
 352 2013-05-05 03:51:40 <cjd> using djb's weird trick?
 353 2013-05-05 03:51:49 <sipa> which one?
 354 2013-05-05 03:52:05 <cjd> heh
 355 2013-05-05 03:52:24 <sipa> if you mean using 5 52-bit limbs instead of 4 64-bit ones to represent a 256-bit field element: yes
 356 2013-05-05 03:52:48 <cjd> there's this strange tree like block of code in his multiplier
 357 2013-05-05 03:53:19 CrypticSquared has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 358 2013-05-05 03:53:36 <cjd> https://github.com/cjdelisle/cnacl/blob/master/crypto_scalarmult/curve25519/donna_c64/smult.c#L392
 359 2013-05-05 03:54:18 <sipa> eh, i have something similar yes
 360 2013-05-05 03:54:20 <cjd> IIRC justmoon was using the same thing in his bitcoinjs code
 361 2013-05-05 03:54:21 CrypticSquared has joined
 362 2013-05-05 03:54:30 <sipa> for inverses and square roots
 363 2013-05-05 03:54:37 <sipa> that's just a precomputed exponentiation ladder
 364 2013-05-05 03:54:48 <cjd> ok :)
 365 2013-05-05 03:54:52 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
 366 2013-05-05 03:55:00 <cjd> I never really got that deep into that stuff
 367 2013-05-05 03:55:03 [7] has joined
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 369 2013-05-05 03:55:34 <sipa> https://github.com/sipa/secp256k1/blob/master/src/impl/field.h#L90
 370 2013-05-05 03:58:05 <cjd> neat
 371 2013-05-05 03:58:42 <sipa> for raw signature verifications it's around 6.5x faster than OpenSSL
 372 2013-05-05 03:58:55 <sipa> on x86_64, when using the assembly code
 373 2013-05-05 03:59:57 <sipa> anyway, now i really need sleep
 374 2013-05-05 04:00:23 <cjd> ok gn
 375 2013-05-05 04:00:29 <cjd> awesome stuff
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 392 2013-05-05 04:33:07 <FlyingLeap> litecoin
 393 2013-05-05 04:33:18 <FlyingLeap> going to overtake bitcoin?
 394 2013-05-05 04:39:21 dvide has quit ()
 395 2013-05-05 04:41:24 <cjd> FlyingLeap: my opinion is this: There are 2 types of people holding bitcoin, the ones who are speculating and the ones who are buying it to make a political statement ("I don't trust the bank"), LTC offers an interesting place to speculate but what political statement does it make?
 396 2013-05-05 04:42:26 <cjd> And if deep down it doesn't promise us a better life then the only investors in it will be speculators and it will rise but when there is a problem and it crashes, it will not recover.
 397 2013-05-05 04:43:00 <FlyingLeap> cjd, litecoin doesn't also make the same political statement?
 398 2013-05-05 04:43:19 grau has joined
 399 2013-05-05 04:43:28 cads has joined
 400 2013-05-05 04:43:38 <FlyingLeap> if it's mostly speculators, sounds shady
 401 2013-05-05 04:43:43 <cjd> so then it is essentially the same as bitcoin but with fewer places to spend it?
 402 2013-05-05 04:44:02 <cjd> why should I bother with it (assuming "get rich quick" is not an option)
 403 2013-05-05 04:44:26 <FlyingLeap> don't know. do they have useful developments that get imported into bitcoin?
 404 2013-05-05 04:44:46 <cjd> no, the only difference is the mining algorithm
 405 2013-05-05 04:45:12 <cjd> which was supposed to only work on CPUs but it was cracked so now GPUs work
 406 2013-05-05 04:45:14 <FlyingLeap> scrypt is a good hash algorithm though isn't it.better than bcrypt.
 407 2013-05-05 04:45:16 <cjd> so it's effectively the same
 408 2013-05-05 04:45:34 sl1982 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 409 2013-05-05 04:45:53 <FlyingLeap> that's news to me. scrypt cracked?
 410 2013-05-05 04:46:14 <cjd> "cracked" has a different meaning to cryptographers
 411 2013-05-05 04:46:24 <FlyingLeap> i see what you mean.
 412 2013-05-05 04:46:31 <cjd> someone found an easier (but still hard) way to get a solution
 413 2013-05-05 04:46:37 <cjd> and now GPUs can hash
 414 2013-05-05 04:46:50 sl1982 has joined
 415 2013-05-05 04:47:06 <FlyingLeap> sounds too much like a clone with no real advantage then
 416 2013-05-05 04:47:14 <cjd> +1
 417 2013-05-05 04:47:23 <cjd> I actually described half of this problem in 2010, I somehow neglected to spot the other half which is what made it totally broken
 418 2013-05-05 04:47:38 <cjd> (for memory hardness, it's still ok for wasting CPU/GPU cycles)
 419 2013-05-05 04:48:08 <shesek> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weaknesses#Attacker_has_a_lot_of_computing_power "The attacker can't ... Reverse other people's transactions". How so? couldn't he remove the block with the transaction he wishes to remove, and create a new a, longer, block chain without that transaction?
 420 2013-05-05 04:48:20 <FlyingLeap> memory hardness is what was originally assumed to be such that gpus would not work for scrypt?
 421 2013-05-05 04:48:30 <cjd> FlyingLeap: correct
 422 2013-05-05 04:49:04 <cjd> shesek: he could make them disappear but it is not useful to him unless he is collaborating with the other people
 423 2013-05-05 04:50:11 <shesek> what does that sentence from the wiki mean than?
 424 2013-05-05 04:50:31 <cjd> FlyingLeap: We need new currencies, we need currencies which are backed by stocks and bonds in our local communities and backed by our town governments and by gold and silver and all sorts of things, we need money which makes our lives better
 425 2013-05-05 04:50:39 <cjd> we don't need more speculation and useless clones
 426 2013-05-05 04:51:54 <shesek> cjd, the advantage of GPUs over CPUs is still much more minimal than what's going on with bitcoin
 427 2013-05-05 04:52:02 <shesek> its not nearly the same
 428 2013-05-05 04:53:56 <cjd> When Lolcust created TBX which eventually evolved through a series of forks into LTC, he intended it to be a currency with builtin money laundry.
 429 2013-05-05 04:54:10 <cjd> This is something, not something I agree with but it is a real change
 430 2013-05-05 04:55:09 <rs0> AIUI GPU's don't have much of an advantage over CPUs when it comes to scrypt. Scrypt ASICs however have a tremendous advantage
 431 2013-05-05 04:55:17 fanquake has joined
 432 2013-05-05 04:55:38 <rs0> in fact i think Luke-Jr basically considers it a structural weakness in the Litecoin design
 433 2013-05-05 04:56:22 <shesek> built in money laundry? how so?
 434 2013-05-05 04:56:41 <cjd> the technique he tried to use didn't work
 435 2013-05-05 04:58:11 robocoin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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 437 2013-05-05 05:00:39 <shesek> what you mean by money laundry? making it impossible to trace the coin origins by following the transactions chain?
 438 2013-05-05 05:01:18 <cjd> yeah
 439 2013-05-05 05:01:29 <shesek> how did he try to do that?
 440 2013-05-05 05:01:51 <cjd> google tennenbrix
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 444 2013-05-05 05:08:02 <cjd> http://image.bayimg.com/cc32968d52b31233fa45bc27cc9f502cdcd8366c.jpg
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 462 2013-05-05 05:35:55 <freewil> how come `walletlock` doesn't show up in `bitcoind help | grep walletlock`
 463 2013-05-05 05:37:26 canoon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 464 2013-05-05 05:43:03 <freewil> hmm
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 467 2013-05-05 05:43:45 <freewil> so if your wallet isnt encrypted then `help` doesnt show commands applicable to an encrypted wallet only
 468 2013-05-05 05:43:57 <freewil> thats somewhat annoying
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 488 2013-05-05 06:16:16 <sserrano44> hi
 489 2013-05-05 06:18:10 <sserrano44> I'm having a weird issue with a transaction, when I broadcast it is rejected instantly by bitcoind
 490 2013-05-05 06:18:23 <Luke-Jr> sserrano44: broadcast it how?
 491 2013-05-05 06:18:42 <sserrano44> but if I decoded all parameters look good
 492 2013-05-05 06:18:52 <sserrano44> bitcoind sendrawtransaction ...
 493 2013-05-05 06:19:10 <sserrano44> testing it with signtransaction returns completed
 494 2013-05-05 06:19:17 <sserrano44> I guess all the parts are there
 495 2013-05-05 06:19:37 <sserrano44> this is the transaction: 0100000001c58579976b9be9e18ab0b6d27375f27546a47d144ae5b2d27d0c6fb9a01fad4d010000008b483045022100e6cf1b0002217eca92506477be690c1b43b429260d2482dd99c20a96c4a270110220798f0082751f8f4d4a8812a02f145311e438184d1f20e749b8970766708efa91014104f7a84351c1341e504c5e8b6eba6a99262d62fc4b27433132a0bf760da9ec9d7bd1338181685a88d51ede5cae13611a1212d3f5708c9fead0c8ed0546abaf44a8ffffffff02c011dd00000000001976a9148a49ba9ff
 496 2013-05-05 06:19:38 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 497 2013-05-05 06:20:12 <sserrano44> bitcoind returns error: {"code":-22,"message":"TX rejected"}
 498 2013-05-05 06:21:44 <sserrano44> any ideas?
 499 2013-05-05 06:22:47 <lianj> sserrano44: pastebin it. irc cut off part of the tx
 500 2013-05-05 06:24:49 cads has joined
 501 2013-05-05 06:24:59 <freewil> Luke-Jr, do you think it makes sense to hide the wallet encryption-related commands from `bitcoind help` if your wallet isn't currently encrypted?
 502 2013-05-05 06:25:11 <Luke-Jr> freewil: debatable
 503 2013-05-05 06:25:22 <Luke-Jr> I could probably argue both positions
 504 2013-05-05 06:25:36 <freewil> seems like a bad idea
 505 2013-05-05 06:25:36 cyphase has joined
 506 2013-05-05 06:25:37 <jchp> hiding functions is usually more confusing
 507 2013-05-05 06:26:08 <freewil> yeah i was going to write a script to make sure my Node.js module has all the commands in it
 508 2013-05-05 06:26:12 sserrano44 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 509 2013-05-05 06:26:17 <Luke-Jr> well, so is showing functions that effectively don't exist
 510 2013-05-05 06:26:17 <freewil> then i ran into this issue of why it was hiding some commands
 511 2013-05-05 06:26:44 <Luke-Jr> it's not like "encrypted wallet" is a state, it's kinda encompassing of the client
 512 2013-05-05 06:26:50 <jchp> yes, but that's a known unknown, you know some may fail. hiding functions could be an unknown-unknown feature for people
 513 2013-05-05 06:26:57 XRPTrader2 has joined
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 515 2013-05-05 06:27:18 <freewil> lol jchp agreed
 516 2013-05-05 06:28:06 cyphase has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 517 2013-05-05 06:28:09 <freewil> imagine if `man` tried to encompass state into the output
 518 2013-05-05 06:28:34 chorao has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 519 2013-05-05 06:28:55 <Luke-Jr> freewil: ?
 520 2013-05-05 06:29:09 <freewil> it seems like help is a basic "documenting" feature
 521 2013-05-05 06:29:27 <Luke-Jr> freewil: wallet encryption isn't a state
 522 2013-05-05 06:29:29 <freewil> and so it's output shouldnt depend on your current state (whether you have an encrypted wallet currently or not)
 523 2013-05-05 06:29:45 <freewil> what would you call it
 524 2013-05-05 06:29:49 <Luke-Jr> it's like the difference between 0.4 and 0.8
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 528 2013-05-05 06:30:15 <freewil> you can still run an encrypted wallet in 0.8
 529 2013-05-05 06:30:21 <Luke-Jr> irrelevant
 530 2013-05-05 06:30:29 <Luke-Jr> 0.4's help doesn't have commands only in 0.8
 531 2013-05-05 06:30:47 <freewil> thats a terrible analogy
 532 2013-05-05 06:31:00 <freewil> unencrypted wallet is still the default in 0.8
 533 2013-05-05 06:31:16 <freewil> if you just start bitcoind and don't already have a wallet that is what you get
 534 2013-05-05 06:31:33 sserrano44 has joined
 535 2013-05-05 06:31:44 <freewil> so say a new user is using `bitcoind help` to study the commands
 536 2013-05-05 06:32:02 <freewil> see what their options are with working on the api
 537 2013-05-05 06:32:25 <freewil> they have unknown unknowns because they cant see all the commands because of their current configuration
 538 2013-05-05 06:33:23 <sserrano44> lianj: this is the decoded transaction http://pastebin.com/GHF7Gcyp
 539 2013-05-05 06:36:33 <Luke-Jr> freewil: bitcoind isn't for users anyway, it's for developers
 540 2013-05-05 06:37:00 <freewil> right, so in this case the user is the developer
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 544 2013-05-05 06:44:44 <freewil> oh well, let your voice be heard https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2619
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 548 2013-05-05 06:48:22 <freewil> Luke-Jr, wouldn't you consider whether the wallet is encrypted a type of configuration or "state"
 549 2013-05-05 06:48:54 <freewil> you could encrypt or unencrypt at runtime
 550 2013-05-05 06:50:50 safra has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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 552 2013-05-05 06:54:20 <Luke-Jr> freewil: you cannot unencrypt
 553 2013-05-05 06:54:54 <Luke-Jr> the state is locked/unlocked (for an encrypted wallet)
 554 2013-05-05 06:54:58 <Luke-Jr> and no commands are hidden for that
 555 2013-05-05 06:57:16 <freewil> i see
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 557 2013-05-05 06:59:55 oru has quit (Quit: ~)
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 559 2013-05-05 07:04:30 <cjd> is there an agreed upon standard way to write a transaction which pays noone ?
 560 2013-05-05 07:04:34 <cjd> which is prunable
 561 2013-05-05 07:04:57 sserrano44 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 562 2013-05-05 07:05:13 <jgarzik> cjd: an output with OP_RETURN is an example of something that is provably prunable
 563 2013-05-05 07:07:59 <cjd> has any progress been made on the proposal to make that IsStandard() ?
 564 2013-05-05 07:08:21 <jgarzik> cjd: the recent data spamming rather reduced motivation...
 565 2013-05-05 07:09:49 <cjd> hrm, chicken-and-egg problem... ofc the spammers will never want to use such a thing since they want people to carry around their data
 566 2013-05-05 07:12:50 brwyatt is now known as brwyatt|Away
 567 2013-05-05 07:17:09 saulimus has joined
 568 2013-05-05 07:20:56 <jeremias> hmm, I am upgrading bitcoind from 0.7.0 to 0.8.1, it claims corrupt wallet, first gives a warning and then an error
 569 2013-05-05 07:21:42 <Luke-Jr> cjd: what is the purpose of a transaction which pays noone?
 570 2013-05-05 07:24:19 <jeremias> do you know what is the order of operations, if the bitcoind fails with corrupt wallet, has it altered the blockchain files?
 571 2013-05-05 07:24:27 <jeremias> eg. can I try downgrading to 0.7.0?
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 573 2013-05-05 07:31:17 jeewee has joined
 574 2013-05-05 07:34:00 <Luke-Jr> jeremias: makes more sense to downgrade to 0.7.3rc3
 575 2013-05-05 07:36:18 <cjd> I need notarization of some data, not much and not often, I want any SPV node with the btc header chain to be able to verify it and I don't want to have to buy some alt coins to do it.
 576 2013-05-05 07:36:55 <cjd> I'm happy to pay for inclusion and I'm happy to see it pruned
 577 2013-05-05 07:37:59 <Luke-Jr> cjd: see ChronoBit and/or Namecoin
 578 2013-05-05 07:38:11 <SomeoneWeird> lol.
 579 2013-05-05 07:38:23 <cjd> namecoin is out because altcoin
 580 2013-05-05 07:38:25 <SomeoneWeird> if you don't need the coins at the other end just op_return it
 581 2013-05-05 07:38:32 grau has joined
 582 2013-05-05 07:38:35 <Luke-Jr> cjd: altcoin is what you need. Bitcoin is not for your spam :p
 583 2013-05-05 07:38:53 <amiller> the strangest limitation of bitcoin is how difficult it is to find a way to pay for extra features you want in it!
 584 2013-05-05 07:39:22 <Luke-Jr> cjd: pruning is not complete; full nodes *still* need to store it forever
 585 2013-05-05 07:40:08 <cjd> I want to collaborate and find a solution which makes everyone happy but it is easier for me to include fake standard transactions which can't be pruned than it is to fool around with alt chains.
 586 2013-05-05 07:40:59 <gmaxwell> cjd: wait. ""I don't want to have to buy some alt coins to do it" ... if I just give you enough namecoin to stamp a million things will you give up on trying to bloat bitcoin with it?
 587 2013-05-05 07:42:09 <gmaxwell> cjd: you should be using something like chronibit, except that everyone who says that timestamping is important to them — at least so far— seems to be full of it, since they won't bother to do even the modest work to run something with O(1) scaling which has already been written.
 588 2013-05-05 07:42:21 <cjd> The nonstandard op_return is unfortunate because it forces legitimate users into the same group as people who want to force everyone to carry around their data
 589 2013-05-05 07:43:13 <gmaxwell> cjd: outputs are not a good place for time stamping in any case, even with purning they still burden the network with storage proportional to usage.
 590 2013-05-05 07:43:26 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: otoh, ChronoBit is still pool-specific :/
 591 2013-05-05 07:43:28 <gmaxwell> cjd: vs coinbase timestampers like chronobit which are O(1).
 592 2013-05-05 07:43:34 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: so fix it.
 593 2013-05-05 07:44:06 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I think the chronobit proofs themselves actually don't care and would work find in a regular coinbase.
 594 2013-05-05 07:44:09 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 595 2013-05-05 07:44:24 <cjd> what was the depth of a cronobit hash chain? I seem to recall it being long
 596 2013-05-05 07:44:28 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: but there's no p2p protocol to communicate them to other pools
 597 2013-05-05 07:44:51 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: any reasonably sizable pool is getting multiply blocks a day.
 598 2013-05-05 07:44:59 <Luke-Jr> relevance?
 599 2013-05-05 07:45:07 <gmaxwell> cjd: it's a couple kilobytes typically, depends on p2pools relative hashrate.
 600 2013-05-05 07:45:25 <cjd> hrm
 601 2013-05-05 07:45:30 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: just submit to one, you'll get timestamped— I agree there should be some work sharing mechenism, but for lots of things its not important.
 602 2013-05-05 07:46:41 <gmaxwell> cjd: it could be made much smaller if p2pool had more than just a prev backreference. But see also my whining about people not actually caring about this application.
 603 2013-05-05 07:47:07 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: actually, the length could be helpful for more accuracy ;)
 604 2013-05-05 07:47:19 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: you can prove X amount of work was done before it hit the blockchain
 605 2013-05-05 07:47:28 <Luke-Jr> and even the timestamp at any given step
 606 2013-05-05 07:49:07 <gmaxwell> yes, it effectively gives you reduced security increased precision timestamps.
 607 2013-05-05 07:49:38 <gmaxwell> but multiple backreferences allowing you to skip the middle ones don't preclude you keeping them for proving the more precise time.
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 612 2013-05-05 07:51:35 <cjd> this is a weird situation since like paying $0.25 for a download or something is considered valid but paying $0.25 for a timestamp is abuse
 613 2013-05-05 07:51:49 <cjd> (paying the miner)
 614 2013-05-05 07:52:07 canoon has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 615 2013-05-05 07:52:45 <cjd> I suppose one can hope that the download site cleans up their payments so there are not dust payments all lying around...
 616 2013-05-05 07:52:52 macboz has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 617 2013-05-05 07:54:49 <gmaxwell> cjd: using bitcoin as a currency is something that all bitcoin users have consented to, throwing non-currency usage onto them is something they haven't consented to.  Perhaps in some cases its generally harmless, — I'd think timestamping is certantly among the least harmful of the non-currency uses. But timestamping has a tidy O(1) solution which is obviously in everyone's best interest to use, but it requires a little more effort to ...
 618 2013-05-05 07:54:56 <gmaxwell> ... setup.
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 621 2013-05-05 07:55:42 <cjd> There is some validity to the "what they signed up for" argument
 622 2013-05-05 07:56:11 <gmaxwell> Of course, widespread use of the poorly scaling time would remove incentive to do the additional work to setup the O(1) kind, which is why it's more important to yell at you for it then it might be otherwise. :P
 623 2013-05-05 07:56:50 <cjd> well.. the proofs also have to be quite small
 624 2013-05-05 07:57:05 macboz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 625 2013-05-05 07:57:08 <cjd> Has the dust outputs PR been included or did the colored coin people keep it out?
 626 2013-05-05 07:57:26 <cjd> Because dust outputs strike me as a much bigger threat overall
 627 2013-05-05 07:57:27 macboz has joined
 628 2013-05-05 07:59:12 <gmaxwell> afaik, colored coin went nowhere there, because it has a tidy answer "create outputs with values large enough to be worth spending"
 629 2013-05-05 07:59:36 <cjd> Yeah, I got that after about 2 minutes of reading the thread
 630 2013-05-05 08:00:03 <cjd> sadly there doesn't exist any implementation which uses deterministic satoshi tracking which IMO is the only sane way to implement it
 631 2013-05-05 08:01:20 <gmaxwell> cjd: so, if you want more compact proofs than chronobit can currenty give you— make a tool that fits into the merged mining infrastructure, and at least one multiple-block-a-day pool will run it, probably at least two.
 632 2013-05-05 08:01:54 <Luke-Jr> cjd: it's abuse because the nodes storing the blockchain have agreed to the storage for currency/trade purposes, not to timestamp your data
 633 2013-05-05 08:02:15 <Luke-Jr> cjd: you may be paying the miner, but that does not compensate all the nodes storing it, nor do they have the opt-out ability
 634 2013-05-05 08:02:31 <SomeoneWeird> ABUSE CJD
 635 2013-05-05 08:02:34 <SomeoneWeird> :P
 636 2013-05-05 08:02:35 <Luke-Jr> oops, guess gmaxwell already said that
 637 2013-05-05 08:02:52 ovidiusoft has joined
 638 2013-05-05 08:02:59 <cjd> Well a generic validator would be able to root in any transaction, mine or the coinbase
 639 2013-05-05 08:03:00 <gmaxwell> If the timestamping were really costless it wouldn't be much of an issue, but every timestamp done in the lame transaction way increases the blockchain size forever. :(
 640 2013-05-05 08:03:56 <Luke-Jr> cjd: merged mining enables that, yes
 641 2013-05-05 08:04:05 <cjd> well.. long term the only way I see this thing scaling is by making the payer provide the part of the chain containing his coins
 642 2013-05-05 08:04:43 canoon has joined
 643 2013-05-05 08:04:58 <Luke-Jr> btw, I did throw this template together https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_MergedMiningScript
 644 2013-05-05 08:05:13 <cjd> so then it occupies a few bits of storage to flag an output as unspent
 645 2013-05-05 08:05:23 <gmaxwell> cjd: uh, that doesn't actually prevent the chain from growing.
 646 2013-05-05 08:05:41 <cjd> yeah, it just prevents anybody from having to store it
 647 2013-05-05 08:05:51 <gmaxwell> No, it does not.
 648 2013-05-05 08:05:52 <gmaxwell> cjd: nodes still need to inspect the historic chain to convince themselves that no one has inflated the currency in the past.
 649 2013-05-05 08:05:53 <Luke-Jr> cjd: nodes need to store the chain
 650 2013-05-05 08:06:12 <gmaxwell> And to inspect it they need to be able to obtain it.
 651 2013-05-05 08:07:00 <gmaxwell> Which means that _someone_ has to store it.
 652 2013-05-05 08:07:06 <cjd> well if everybody throws everything away after 5 years, you have a 5 year period where any funny business would cause someone's code to break
 653 2013-05-05 08:07:42 <cjd> yeah, someone will always want to store the whole history of the universe, but it should not be a requirement
 654 2013-05-05 08:07:48 <gmaxwell> cjd: there are already plenty of people willing to believe that satoshi or whomever has a billion bitcoins, the fact that each node independantly verifies that this isn't so is fundimental to the trust in the system.
 655 2013-05-05 08:07:51 nouitfvf___ is now known as nouitfvf
 656 2013-05-05 08:08:17 <gmaxwell> cjd: it's not a requirement for everyone to store everything— but it's a requirement under our security model for it to be stored and available.
 657 2013-05-05 08:09:06 <gmaxwell> cjd: and regardless, it doesn't change the fact that there is a tidy O(1) solution to your problem which requires a small amount of additional upfront development work.
 658 2013-05-05 08:09:07 <cjd> plenty of people willing to believe <-- we both know that proving them wrong won't even slow them down ;)
 659 2013-05-05 08:09:19 grau has joined
 660 2013-05-05 08:09:23 <gmaxwell> cjd: It actually has.
 661 2013-05-05 08:09:41 <gmaxwell> (well at the very least, redirected them to more factually based paranoia!)
 662 2013-05-05 08:09:48 <cjd> heh
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 665 2013-05-05 08:10:38 <gmaxwell> cjd: How's cjdns going in any case?  Also— did you ever write up what you want the timestamps for?
 666 2013-05-05 08:10:39 <sydna> oddly enough, people *don't* want to store history. that's why there's groups like archive.org and ArchiveTeam running around the joint
 667 2013-05-05 08:11:13 <cjd> cjdns is kind of just doing it's thing, I have not made many changes to it lately
 668 2013-05-05 08:11:16 <SomeoneWeird> cjdns imploded
 669 2013-05-05 08:11:17 <cjd> it basically works
 670 2013-05-05 08:11:19 <SomeoneWeird> jks
 671 2013-05-05 08:11:38 <Luke-Jr> sydna: I think it's more for people too ignorant to realize they want to store history, not that people have made a conscious decision not to
 672 2013-05-05 08:11:55 <cjd> the network is a bit fragile and slow to converge because I need to rewrite a bunch of things
 673 2013-05-05 08:12:13 <cjd> still putting that off since in it's current form it's reasonably free of bugs
 674 2013-05-05 08:12:22 <cjd> and it took a very long time to get there
 675 2013-05-05 08:12:43 <sydna> Luke-Jr: I've approached people with offers to personally archive dead forums and websites that look in danger of disappearing. on more than one occasion I've had people nuke the web server to stop people from archiving the contents.
 676 2013-05-05 08:13:27 <sydna> Luke-Jr: there does seem to be some resistance that people have towards the archiving of internet history, or history in general.
 677 2013-05-05 08:13:46 <Luke-Jr> weird
 678 2013-05-05 08:13:52 <gmaxwell> sydna: part of the problem is that old things look new online, the pages don't yellow.
 679 2013-05-05 08:14:48 <sydna> gmaxwell: I hadn't considered that. it's fairly easy to tell old websites apart though, all the outgoing links will be broken
 680 2013-05-05 08:15:13 <cjd> The motivation for this timestamping business is a semi-secret project, I don't talk much about it because when I do, people come out of the woodwork to argue with me about design details.
 681 2013-05-05 08:15:27 <gmaxwell> I feel very fortunate that most of my mispent online youth happened before the WWW and what was said on BBSes, fidonet, compuserve, and early IRC largely went down the memory hole. ... I've seen people's reputations torn up by things they wrote on the internet a decade prior as kids.
 682 2013-05-05 08:15:56 <gmaxwell> cjd: ah. well. just make it so complicated that most people give up trying to understand it.
 683 2013-05-05 08:15:59 <gmaxwell> :P
 684 2013-05-05 08:16:07 <cjd> :D
 685 2013-05-05 08:16:08 <sydna> I understand that. there's a difference between public forums and IRC logs though
 686 2013-05-05 08:16:54 <gmaxwell> sydna: somewhat... but when people write in a forum they're writing as part of a dialog with the existing people there that share substantial context and culture with them and also have the ability to engage in two way discussions to clarify misunderstandings.
 687 2013-05-05 08:17:07 <gmaxwell> So while public forums and irc are different, they're not entirely different.
 688 2013-05-05 08:17:23 <cjd> The Internet makes the whole world nakid, eventually society will catch up with the understanding that we are all human, it just sucks to be the first person to lose their pants.
 689 2013-05-05 08:17:40 <gmaxwell> (I'm not opposed to archiving either, but I've actually seen the long memory of the internet hurt people severely, and so I think I see why some might be!)
 690 2013-05-05 08:18:06 <sydna> gmaxwell: is decidedly less formal than a forum though. I'm fairly sure that your demeanour is slightly different on here than when you post in the mailing lists or bitcointalk.org
 691 2013-05-05 08:18:15 <sydna> gmaxwell: I completely understand your stance though
 692 2013-05-05 08:18:23 <jeremias> is it safe to run pywallet while bitcoind is running?
 693 2013-05-05 08:18:58 <gmaxwell> cjd: a good bit of is is hygiene and expectations. It's less bad to lose your pants when you know you were going to be without them.
 694 2013-05-05 08:19:10 <cjd> /nod
 695 2013-05-05 08:19:15 <gmaxwell> People are generally not ready for how pantsless the internet makes them— its surprising.
 696 2013-05-05 08:19:21 <gmaxwell> jeremias: No.
 697 2013-05-05 08:19:22 <cjd> yeap
 698 2013-05-05 08:19:45 <sydna> people are generally not ready for how much an alias exposes them
 699 2013-05-05 08:20:56 <gmaxwell> sydna: a lot of people think they're far more hidden than they are— I often think it's better to just participate under your legal name and know that you're not hidden. At least your expectations match reality.
 700 2013-05-05 08:21:11 <cjd> +1
 701 2013-05-05 08:21:43 ThomasV has joined
 702 2013-05-05 08:22:09 <cjd> Also helps remind one's self to avoid saying things which might be taken the wrong way
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 704 2013-05-05 08:22:56 <sydna> gmaxwell: the way I think of pseudonyms varies on a day to day basis. I suspect that I would sorely regret using my true name for many things online. not because any of them are particularly bad, just that I would look back on myself and wince
 705 2013-05-05 08:23:09 <sydna> *on a day to day basis changes
 706 2013-05-05 08:23:12 <gmaxwell> Thats quite hard sometimes, particularly where you're communicating in forums (like IRC) where there isn't an expectation of editorial review before posting.
 707 2013-05-05 08:23:27 <Luke-Jr> sydna: what is a true name?
 708 2013-05-05 08:24:22 <sydna> Luke-Jr: my full name, at least, one of them
 709 2013-05-05 08:24:28 jeewee has joined
 710 2013-05-05 08:24:39 <Luke-Jr> sydna: I'm trying to get philosophical here, I mean in general :P
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 712 2013-05-05 08:25:03 <sydna> oh, sorry
 713 2013-05-05 08:25:16 <kauzu> good morning
 714 2013-05-05 08:26:03 <kauzu> how can i calculate the priority of a tx ? i mean automaticaly... there are way to much inputs for do it manualy
 715 2013-05-05 08:27:09 <sydna> Luke-Jr: I'm actually not sure. have you read the Earthsea Trilogy?
 716 2013-05-05 08:27:15 <Luke-Jr> sydna: no
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 719 2013-05-05 08:29:05 <sydna> Luke-Jr: my quote won't make any sense then. just relates to a guy who always uses a pseudonym for his entire life, and only one person in the word uses his true given name. something I somewhat aspire to.
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 722 2013-05-05 08:30:02 <sydna> Luke-Jr: unfortunately outside the world of magic and dragons, everybody wants my real ID. my bank, my rental agency, mt gox. everything is contaminated with my real identity.
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 724 2013-05-05 08:30:18 <Luke-Jr> sydna: my point is that a name is how you are referred to in writing/speech.
 725 2013-05-05 08:32:27 <kauzu> how can i calculate the priority of a tx ? i mean automaticaly... there are way to much inputs for do it manualy
 726 2013-05-05 08:34:08 <Luke-Jr> kauzu: why
 727 2013-05-05 08:34:25 <sydna> Luke-Jr: ideally for me that would be a pseudonym in real life as well as here, but there's always legal documents contaminating that. I might call myself sydna to the people at the coffee shop, but the lady at the rental place can still see my real identity on the documents.
 728 2013-05-05 08:34:57 <Luke-Jr> sydna: move to the USA, where you have a constitutional right to use whatever name you want
 729 2013-05-05 08:35:02 <kauzu> luke-jr: why not
 730 2013-05-05 08:35:16 <Luke-Jr> kauzu: because it doesn't have a universal definition
 731 2013-05-05 08:35:36 <Luke-Jr> kauzu: different clients and miners can calculate prioirities however they like
 732 2013-05-05 08:36:13 <kauzu> luke-jr: then for the reference implementation
 733 2013-05-05 08:36:20 <sydna> Luke-Jr: I wish. I suspect their other laws might be less friendly to me.
 734 2013-05-05 08:36:27 <Luke-Jr> kauzu: it still varies between versions
 735 2013-05-05 08:36:38 <Luke-Jr> sydna: every country has laws that suck.
 736 2013-05-05 08:36:49 <Luke-Jr> if you find a perfect one, let me know ;P
 737 2013-05-05 08:37:11 <sydna> Australia is getting less and less perfect as time goes on
 738 2013-05-05 08:37:26 <duSn> law in massachusettes -> you have to walk 100ft in front of car with a lantern
 739 2013-05-05 08:37:52 <Luke-Jr> I don't like Australia at all.
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 741 2013-05-05 08:38:54 <sydna> any particular reason? I'm always curious about our reputation
 742 2013-05-05 08:41:06 <SomeoneWeird> AUStrAAAAAALIA
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 765 2013-05-05 09:17:07 <Kwanf6> how does a client find other peers? Is there some "Tracker" sites?
 766 2013-05-05 09:19:57 <jaakkos> Kwanf6: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Network#Bootstrapping
 767 2013-05-05 09:21:02 <gmaxwell> Kwanf6: do you mean initially on first start or steady state?
 768 2013-05-05 09:21:25 <gmaxwell> if you mean initially, thats bootstrapping— after that it hears about peers from other peers.
 769 2013-05-05 09:23:56 <cjd> is TxIn->previous_output->hash reversed?
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 771 2013-05-05 09:25:12 <alex_fun> heya
 772 2013-05-05 09:25:50 <alex_fun> if chain starts at low diff and checkpoints are added say after every 150th block
 773 2013-05-05 09:26:12 <alex_fun> does it make it immune to 51% chain ovewrite
 774 2013-05-05 09:26:40 <alex_fun> maybe in future some coins clients are going to auto push checkpoints updates? :)
 775 2013-05-05 09:27:07 <gmaxwell> alex_fun: it makes it a centeralized system, as other than "trust me" there is no unambigious decenteralized way to "checkpoint" that frequently — so yes, sure— but why bother with a blockchain? pretty inefficient way to have a centeralized system.
 776 2013-05-05 09:27:34 <gmaxwell> Perhaps you should consider using paypal instead?
 777 2013-05-05 09:27:50 <alex_fun> interesting point
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 779 2013-05-05 09:28:42 <cjd> What I find more interesting is the prospect of issuing a currency using colored coins
 780 2013-05-05 09:28:51 <alex_fun> can block chain issue checkpoints itself somehow?
 781 2013-05-05 09:29:18 <gmaxwell> alex_fun: every block is the blockchain checkpointing itself
 782 2013-05-05 09:29:43 <cjd> because it can be backed by businesses in the local community and these guys here keep the infrastructure working :)
 783 2013-05-05 09:30:27 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: btw, what if we got rid of the block size limit, and replaced it with a p2pool rule that every sub-block could add 15 kB to the block data but was required to include all previous transactions? ;)
 784 2013-05-05 09:30:40 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: and blocks are only valid if they complied with the p2pool rule
 785 2013-05-05 09:30:47 bitit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 786 2013-05-05 09:30:49 <Luke-Jr> (not necessarily p2pool itself, but something related)
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 788 2013-05-05 09:31:36 <alex_fun> Luke-Jr:  how did u `stoped` that new old coin? technically speaking? you did not proccess blocks
 789 2013-05-05 09:31:45 <alex_fun> looks interesting
 790 2013-05-05 09:31:57 <Luke-Jr> alex_fun: I just raised the transaction fee to some huge amount
 791 2013-05-05 09:32:02 <gmaxwell> alex_fun: the whole idea of "immune to 51%" is basically misguided. Unless you've found a better way to prevent sybils than computing/energy consumption thats another way of saying "allow a minority to control the state of the system". There are many ways to allow a minority of something to control the state, but if you're interested in making something secure and decenteralized most of them are not very interesting.
 792 2013-05-05 09:32:48 <cjd> xD
 793 2013-05-05 09:33:22 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: dunno. too tired to think
 794 2013-05-05 09:33:37 <alex_fun> Luke-Jr:  as far as I know tx fees go into mempool them via mining into reward, some miners could simple keep processing blocks at theirs low fees however how would that impact target say 1 block per 10 min?
 795 2013-05-05 09:34:17 <Luke-Jr> alex_fun: dunno, too tired to parse that
 796 2013-05-05 09:34:19 <Luke-Jr> <.<
 797 2013-05-05 09:34:25 <alex_fun> lol
 798 2013-05-05 09:34:33 <alex_fun> I give u 200 bbq coins :D
 799 2013-05-05 09:34:36 <alex_fun> haha
 800 2013-05-05 09:34:38 <alex_fun> kidding
 801 2013-05-05 09:37:04 <alex_fun> I mean people sent coins - go to every node mem pool - nodes who accept low tx fees say 30% from 100%. Their rate of blocks production is 30%. 70% is not mining just sits on client. so 30% can still proccess all transactions.
 802 2013-05-05 09:37:40 <Luke-Jr> >50% is 100%
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 805 2013-05-05 09:42:12 <alex_fun> becouse it becomes auto selected best chain up where blocks can be double spent up till  latest checkpoint?
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 809 2013-05-05 09:43:25 <alex_fun> ok so 51% becomes longest chain, it still includes variety of miners who can set low fees individually or what am I missing?:)
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 813 2013-05-05 09:47:46 <Luke-Jr> alex_fun: 51% can ignore other miners
 814 2013-05-05 09:48:43 <r0sc0e> anyone can tell me why in my appdata directory there is a directory called devcoin, with a wallet.dat, blkindex.dat ect..
 815 2013-05-05 09:49:01 <r0sc0e> thought these files are in the bitcoin-appdata directory?
 816 2013-05-05 09:49:07 <alex_fun> Luke-Jr: oo becomes its longest chain so unless stuff accepted by those nodes blocks proccesses at low text fee would not be accepted by clients
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 818 2013-05-05 09:49:35 <Luke-Jr> r0sc0e: because you ran a scamcoin called 'devcoin'?
 819 2013-05-05 09:49:35 <alex_fun> since their block hash and merkle hash would be diff from 51% chain
 820 2013-05-05 09:49:36 <alex_fun> right? :)
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 822 2013-05-05 09:50:04 * alex_fun 51% lukes tonal coin :P
 823 2013-05-05 09:50:05 <alex_fun> haha
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 834 2013-05-05 10:08:14 <alex_fun> ok thanks for explanation anyways
 835 2013-05-05 10:08:14 <alex_fun> )
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 843 2013-05-05 10:18:04 <r0sc0e> whats the correct way to save my wallet on bitcoin-qt 0.8.1? could anyone explain it to me please?
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 851 2013-05-05 10:30:12 <bitanarchy> hi
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 853 2013-05-05 10:30:46 <bitanarchy> why is there a list of bitcoin addresses in every the bitcoin-qt wallet?
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 980 2013-05-05 10:49:37 <takeyourhatoff> How far away are we until the HD wallets spec is finalised?
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1066 2013-05-05 11:40:34 <r0sc0e> whats the correct way to save my wallet on bitcoin-qt 0.8.1? could anyone explain it to me please?
1067 2013-05-05 11:40:44 <r0sc0e> i saved my wallet.dat
1068 2013-05-05 11:41:11 <r0sc0e> but how can i save the blockchain correct @ bitcoin qt 0.8.1 ?
1069 2013-05-05 11:41:35 <skinnkavaj> so is fork done soon? what date was it again?
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1074 2013-05-05 11:46:10 <sipa> skinnkavaj: http://bitcoin.org/may15.html
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1077 2013-05-05 11:50:10 <Eremes> will it be more secure if I make brain wallet using foreign language other than english ?
1078 2013-05-05 11:50:22 <sipa> Eremes: hardly
1079 2013-05-05 11:50:27 <sipa> just don't do that
1080 2013-05-05 11:50:44 <takeyourhatoff> Eremes: no, you need a passphrase where you can calculated the minimum entropy
1081 2013-05-05 11:50:51 <takeyourhatoff> i suggest a 10 word diceware password
1082 2013-05-05 11:50:58 <sipa> if you make a brainwallet, use randomly a generated password
1083 2013-05-05 11:50:59 <takeyourhatoff> if you are intent on using a brain wallet
1084 2013-05-05 11:51:19 <takeyourhatoff> that gives you a minimum of 129 bits of entropy
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1087 2013-05-05 11:51:58 <ahf> is the list of disabled instructions enlisted here https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script up-to-date?
1088 2013-05-05 11:52:31 <ahf> and how come is something like OP_2MUL and OP_2DIV disabled?
1089 2013-05-05 11:53:05 <Eremes> sipa: u mean i should only use english for my brainwallet ?
1090 2013-05-05 11:53:28 <takeyourhatoff> Eremes: http://world.std.com/~reinhold/diceware.html
1091 2013-05-05 11:53:33 <takeyourhatoff> 10 word diceware password
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1093 2013-05-05 11:53:36 <sipa> Eremes: don't use a brainwallet where you generate the passphrase yourself
1094 2013-05-05 11:53:51 <sipa> Eremes: people are notoriously bad at estimating how 'random' something they come up with is
1095 2013-05-05 11:53:54 <takeyourhatoff> if you generated it yourself, you cant measure the entropy
1096 2013-05-05 11:54:03 <Eremes> how do I measure the entropy ?
1097 2013-05-05 11:54:05 <Eremes> a231 brcik21312 woi82827 sameguy1998747 hardly13121 ma4234ke sure88373hhaha workingasd
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1099 2013-05-05 11:54:17 <Eremes> for exaample that kind of phrase not good enough ?
1100 2013-05-05 11:54:23 <sipa> Eremes: that's the point: you can't, unless you know how you generated it
1101 2013-05-05 11:54:30 <sipa> but no, that doesn't look very random
1102 2013-05-05 11:54:34 <takeyourhatoff> Eremes: any pass phrase you think of will not be good enough
1103 2013-05-05 11:54:37 wrabbit has joined
1104 2013-05-05 11:54:40 <sipa> simple words, repeated numbers, ...
1105 2013-05-05 11:55:06 <Eremes> takeyourhatoff: you sure ? even i think that phrase in native indian language ?
1106 2013-05-05 11:55:16 <takeyourhatoff> Eremes: absoulutly
1107 2013-05-05 11:55:27 <sipa> Eremes: what you think about it doesn't matter
1108 2013-05-05 11:55:28 <takeyourhatoff> because you do not know how random it is (how much entropy it has)
1109 2013-05-05 11:55:49 <takeyourhatoff> the only way to get enough entropy for sure it to randomly generate the passphrase
1110 2013-05-05 11:55:49 <sipa> let a computer generate your passphrase, and you can be sure it has a minimum entropy content
1111 2013-05-05 11:55:55 <takeyourhatoff> sipa: or use dice
1112 2013-05-05 11:56:00 <Eremes> so how do I create a brainwallet that I am able to remember ?
1113 2013-05-05 11:56:01 <sipa> yes
1114 2013-05-05 11:56:10 <takeyourhatoff> Eremes: read the link i posted
1115 2013-05-05 11:56:25 <takeyourhatoff> http://world.std.com/%7Ereinhold/dicewarewordlist.pdf
1116 2013-05-05 11:56:27 <Eremes> takeyourhatoff: ok reading
1117 2013-05-05 11:56:28 <sipa> Eremes: if you need something that is easy to remember, you'll create a (relatively easily) guessable password
1118 2013-05-05 11:56:33 <takeyourhatoff> there is a list of 6^5 words
1119 2013-05-05 11:56:56 <takeyourhatoff> it is formated so you can randomly choose words from that list with dice rolls
1120 2013-05-05 11:56:59 <sipa> Eremes: note that the entire world can do unlimited brute force attacks on your keys, without limit, and for eternity
1121 2013-05-05 11:57:02 <takeyourhatoff> choose a word 10 times
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1123 2013-05-05 11:57:34 <Eremes> sipa: now I am afraid to use brainwallet
1124 2013-05-05 11:57:46 <takeyourhatoff> you should be
1125 2013-05-05 11:57:48 <sipa> Eremes: yes, my best advise is: just don't
1126 2013-05-05 11:58:03 <Eremes> any advice how do I create offline cold storage ?
1127 2013-05-05 11:58:08 <Eremes> for btc
1128 2013-05-05 11:58:39 <sipa> create a wallet on a computer not connected to the internet
1129 2013-05-05 11:58:58 <sipa> encrypt it
1130 2013-05-05 11:59:08 <takeyourhatoff> b = (n log x) / (log 2) where b is the entropy measured in bits; n is the number of words in the passphrase; x is the number of words in the passphrase
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1133 2013-05-05 11:59:36 <Eremes> sipa: what if I want to spent it ?
1134 2013-05-05 11:59:54 <sipa> Eremes: then you need it on an online system
1135 2013-05-05 12:00:04 sark has quit (Disconnected by services)
1136 2013-05-05 12:00:29 <takeyourhatoff> (10 log 6^5) / log 2 =  129 bits of entropy
1137 2013-05-05 12:00:41 RazielZ has joined
1138 2013-05-05 12:00:49 <Eremes> sipa
1139 2013-05-05 12:00:53 <sipa> takeyourhatoff: x is the number of words in your dictionary
1140 2013-05-05 12:00:56 holorga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1141 2013-05-05 12:00:59 <Eremes> I heard u can do transaction from offline system
1142 2013-05-05 12:01:01 <takeyourhatoff> yeah
1143 2013-05-05 12:01:04 <sipa> takeyourhatoff: and it's assuming you pick them uniformly randomly
1144 2013-05-05 12:01:09 <takeyourhatoff> yeah
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1146 2013-05-05 12:01:22 <sipa> Eremes: yes, create and sign the transaction on an offline system, and then move it
1147 2013-05-05 12:01:37 <sipa> Eremes: but you still need to receive payments before being able to do that
1148 2013-05-05 12:01:37 <Eremes> sipa: how do i do that ?
1149 2013-05-05 12:01:37 <takeyourhatoff> sipa: sorry, yeah, just saw my misake
1150 2013-05-05 12:01:44 <sipa> Eremes: use armory, for example
1151 2013-05-05 12:01:55 guruvan has joined
1152 2013-05-05 12:01:55 <sipa> it's an advanced bitcoin client that supports things like that
1153 2013-05-05 12:01:58 <takeyourhatoff> Eremes: armory will print out a paper backup for you
1154 2013-05-05 12:02:07 <Eremes> oh ok cool
1155 2013-05-05 12:02:10 <Eremes> let me check armory
1156 2013-05-05 12:02:13 <Eremes> thanks guys
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1160 2013-05-05 12:02:55 <takeyourhatoff> ;;calc 10 * log(6**5) / log(2)
1161 2013-05-05 12:02:56 <gribble> 129.248125036
1162 2013-05-05 12:02:59 <takeyourhatoff> nice one gribble!
1163 2013-05-05 12:03:18 <sipa> ;;calc 5*10 * log(6)/log(2)
1164 2013-05-05 12:03:18 <gribble> 129.248125036
1165 2013-05-05 12:04:00 <takeyourhatoff> sipa: well, that would be one way of making a passphrase :-)
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1167 2013-05-05 12:05:10 <takeyourhatoff> 56231561234243562431562431562431562431562431565456
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1177 2013-05-05 12:19:44 <shesek> `cat /usr/share/dict/words | shuf --random-source=/dev/random -n7 | tr '\n' ' ' && echo ""` works well too
1178 2013-05-05 12:21:01 <sipa> how many entries in your dict?
1179 2013-05-05 12:21:02 <shesek> probably not as random as a dice roll, but random enough
1180 2013-05-05 12:21:20 <shesek> ~100K
1181 2013-05-05 12:21:31 CodesInChaos has joined
1182 2013-05-05 12:21:41 <sipa> ;;calc 7*log(100000)/log(2)
1183 2013-05-05 12:21:41 <gribble> 116.267483321
1184 2013-05-05 12:21:48 <sipa> close in any case
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1189 2013-05-05 12:22:48 <Luke-Jr> I use: apg -k -a 1 -x 80
1190 2013-05-05 12:23:21 <sipa> unknown option: -k
1191 2013-05-05 12:23:46 <Luke-Jr>        -k     check every generated password using cracklib. To use this abil‐
1192 2013-05-05 12:23:48 <Luke-Jr>               ity you must enable cracklib support during programm building.
1193 2013-05-05 12:23:55 * sipa sees
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1195 2013-05-05 12:24:26 <sipa> wait... CheckSig blanks out the signature push from scriptCode
1196 2013-05-05 12:24:33 <sipa> but scriptCode is the _output_ script
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1198 2013-05-05 12:24:58 <sipa> this makes no sense!
1199 2013-05-05 12:25:03 <Luke-Jr> you must be wrong?
1200 2013-05-05 12:25:11 <sipa> i'm not
1201 2013-05-05 12:25:15 <eqolo> Where can I find the wallet.dat file?
1202 2013-05-05 12:25:23 <Luke-Jr> well, it must blank the input scripts too
1203 2013-05-05 12:25:27 <Luke-Jr> otherwise it couldn't work
1204 2013-05-05 12:25:28 <sipa> Luke-Jr: sure, it does that too
1205 2013-05-05 12:25:48 <sipa> i'm just puzzled as to why that specific blanking of the signature is there
1206 2013-05-05 12:25:51 <shesek> Luke-Jr, that's quite impossible to remember, you must keep a copy of that somewhere
1207 2013-05-05 12:25:58 <sipa> it means you can have an output that signs itself, i guess
1208 2013-05-05 12:26:10 <shesek> in which case, you can just store the private key someplace safe, instead of storing that password
1209 2013-05-05 12:26:29 <Luke-Jr> sipa: if you blanked the output, wouldn't that mean any relayer could change where it goes?
1210 2013-05-05 12:26:51 <sipa> Luke-Jr: the output isn't blanked; the signature is erased from it
1211 2013-05-05 12:27:08 <sipa> (and in any script existing right now, there is no signature in it in the first place)
1212 2013-05-05 12:27:09 <Luke-Jr> oh, find and replace style?
1213 2013-05-05 12:27:13 <sipa> yes
1214 2013-05-05 12:27:52 <eqolo> Should I save wallet.dat file with Bitcoin-qt program? Or should I copy the file from% appdata% / bitcoin?
1215 2013-05-05 12:28:01 <sipa> eqolo: use the backup wallet function
1216 2013-05-05 12:28:01 PK has joined
1217 2013-05-05 12:28:06 <eqolo> sipa: ok
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1219 2013-05-05 12:29:48 <eqolo> sipa: Does it make much difference?
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1221 2013-05-05 12:30:35 <sipa> eqolo: yes
1222 2013-05-05 12:30:42 <sipa> eqolo: it guarantees the file is consistent
1223 2013-05-05 12:31:04 <sipa> eqolo: if you copy the file while the program is running, it may not be readable
1224 2013-05-05 12:31:19 <bitanarchy> Q: how does an armory wallet retrieve all the addresses it has received coins on? By checking the blockchain?
1225 2013-05-05 12:31:24 <eqolo> sipa: When I save it with the (bitcoin-qt) function?
1226 2013-05-05 12:31:42 <sipa> bitanarchy: yes
1227 2013-05-05 12:31:46 <eqolo> sipa: ok thanks
1228 2013-05-05 12:32:15 <shesek> if I send a transaction, than immediately another transaction that spends the first transaction's outputs, will it be accepted by the nodes? or I must wait some time between them?
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1231 2013-05-05 12:32:43 <sipa> shesek: it may work
1232 2013-05-05 12:32:54 <sipa> relay policy rules are complex
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1234 2013-05-05 12:33:31 <bitanarchy> sipa: thanks. Another question. Why does bitcoin-qt or any other client use a new address for change every time. They could keep using the same address over and over, or not?
1235 2013-05-05 12:33:37 <shesek> is there any spec for them, other than the official client's source code?
1236 2013-05-05 12:34:00 <sipa> bitanarchy: privacy
1237 2013-05-05 12:34:29 <sipa> bitanarchy: it would be trivial to see which output is change and which is the real payment otherwise
1238 2013-05-05 12:34:38 CoinBomb_Com has joined
1239 2013-05-05 12:34:51 <sipa> (it's still relatively easy in many case otherwise, but it's an improvement)
1240 2013-05-05 12:34:58 BTCOxygen is now known as 1!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/btcoxygen|BTCOxygen
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1244 2013-05-05 12:35:24 <CoinBomb_Com> Hey guys, we've just launched coinbomb.com anyone got any feedback on the site?
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1247 2013-05-05 12:37:46 <bitanarchy> sipa: How does an armory wallet find all the addresses in the blockchain that belong it?
1248 2013-05-05 12:40:48 <sipa> bitanarchy: addresses are client-side wallet thing
1249 2013-05-05 12:41:10 safra has joined
1250 2013-05-05 12:41:11 <sipa> bitanarchy: but i assume you mean how does it find transactions sending to its addresses, or those spending the output of that?
1251 2013-05-05 12:41:29 <sipa> it uses bitcoind in the background
1252 2013-05-05 12:41:48 <bitanarchy> sipa: but an armory wallet (in the minimal sense) only consists of a two numbers
1253 2013-05-05 12:42:08 <bitanarchy> sipa: there is no list of addresses, since it is deterministic
1254 2013-05-05 12:42:48 <sipa> the addresses are derived from the seed
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1265 2013-05-05 12:50:47 <bitanarchy> sipa: Ah, now I see it... it is always the same series of addresses. Thanks
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1275 2013-05-05 13:01:57 <Eremes> if I have my btc address and priv key, is it possible to convert/make it into english brainwallet ?
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1280 2013-05-05 13:07:02 <wumpus> Eremes: no, it works the other way around, you generate a priv/pubkey pair from the brainwallet and you send coins to that
1281 2013-05-05 13:07:28 r0sc0e has joined
1282 2013-05-05 13:07:39 <BlueMatt> sipa: yes, it does...and no it makes no sense
1283 2013-05-05 13:09:12 <BlueMatt> sipa: in fact, there's a test-case for it :)
1284 2013-05-05 13:09:39 Blackreign_ has joined
1285 2013-05-05 13:10:24 <wumpus> Eremes: going the other way around (finding some english sentence that hashes to the key) would be a long brute forcing exercise
1286 2013-05-05 13:10:54 <sipa> BlueMatt: just added a testcase to compare the old sighash code with my inline one, and i've reindexed the entire chain wth it, so i'm reasonably confident it works correctly now :)
1287 2013-05-05 13:11:06 HM has joined
1288 2013-05-05 13:11:30 <sipa> BlueMatt: though it only replaced SignatureHash, not whatever ugly things CheckSig before calling SignatureHash
1289 2013-05-05 13:11:32 <BlueMatt> sipa: you mean added more test-cases to the data-driven tx validation stuff?
1290 2013-05-05 13:11:46 <BlueMatt> (I hope)
1291 2013-05-05 13:11:56 <sipa> BlueMatt: not data-driven; just randomly generated transactions, and compare old and new code
1292 2013-05-05 13:12:05 <BlueMatt> ahh, meh
1293 2013-05-05 13:12:09 <sipa> though you could easy extract data-driven ones from that
1294 2013-05-05 13:12:28 * BlueMatt was hoping bitcoinj would magically get more test-coverage thanks to that
1295 2013-05-05 13:12:40 canoon has joined
1296 2013-05-05 13:12:48 <BlueMatt> anyway, yea...does it get significantly better performance in any case?
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1298 2013-05-05 13:13:17 <sipa> 10% improvement or so, and less thread contention (as it reduces malloc overhead)
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1300 2013-05-05 13:13:52 <sipa> though the 10% improvement was measured with single-threaded verification
1301 2013-05-05 13:15:04 <sipa> actual signature verification is ~90us now, and full bitcoin txin verification is ~120 us
1302 2013-05-05 13:15:42 <BlueMatt> nice, I should probably do something similar in bitcoinj eventually (as it is 2 inputs from a txn cant be checked in different threads) but the db is really where Id like to optimize more at some point
1303 2013-05-05 13:15:54 stalled has joined
1304 2013-05-05 13:16:38 <BlueMatt> anyway, I dont really expect great performance from java no matter how its done...
1305 2013-05-05 13:17:20 <sipa> https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/blob/secp256k1/src/script.cpp#L968
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1307 2013-05-05 13:19:51 <sipa> i did a full reindex with -nocheckpoints in 47 minutes now
1308 2013-05-05 13:20:12 <BlueMatt> with your asm sigchecker or openssl?
1309 2013-05-05 13:20:30 <sipa> libsecp256k1, with asm
1310 2013-05-05 13:20:40 <BlueMatt> nice
1311 2013-05-05 13:20:41 <sipa> openssl needs 600us for a signature check...
1312 2013-05-05 13:21:03 <BlueMatt> heh
1313 2013-05-05 13:21:30 <BlueMatt> how much fuzz testing has libsecp256k1 gotten?
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1315 2013-05-05 13:21:53 <sipa> not enough
1316 2013-05-05 13:22:22 <sipa> there are some end-to-end unit tests, and some low-level numeric tests
1317 2013-05-05 13:22:48 <BlueMatt> doesnt FIPS provide a standard set of reference sigs?
1318 2013-05-05 13:23:12 <sipa> and i've tried manually modifying some of the tests, to see if things break
1319 2013-05-05 13:23:17 <sipa> BlueMatt: hmm, i should look into that!
1320 2013-05-05 13:23:34 <BlueMatt> so...no automated fuzz testing?
1321 2013-05-05 13:24:12 <BlueMatt> (ie randomly generate valid sigs with a bunch of different libs, randomly mutate them, etc)
1322 2013-05-05 13:24:31 <sipa> ah, that's what you mean
1323 2013-05-05 13:25:03 <sipa> i have some tests (very small number!) that are data-based, and verified against another implementation
1324 2013-05-05 13:25:39 <sipa> and i have tests of the form: generate key, message, nonce, create signature, verify signature, modify one bit in signature, check that it fails
1325 2013-05-05 13:26:14 <sipa> but yes, more testing is certainly welcome
1326 2013-05-05 13:27:08 * sipa afk for a bit
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1328 2013-05-05 13:28:19 <BlueMatt> sipa: ahh, ok I just wondered if you had gotten around to that yet...anyway
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1386 2013-05-05 14:35:25 <bitRipperX> I'm reading the "Protocol Rules" wiki page and I'm having trouble understanding Tx rule 5. "Make sure none of the inputs have hash=0, n=-1 (coinbase transactions)"
1387 2013-05-05 14:35:34 <bitRipperX> what is the n in this case?
1388 2013-05-05 14:36:50 <BlueMatt> the index of the output in tx with hash hash
1389 2013-05-05 14:36:53 <lianj> bitRipperX: prev_out index
1390 2013-05-05 14:37:14 <BlueMatt> (note that those rules are likely guaranteed to be out-of-date)
1391 2013-05-05 14:37:24 <BlueMatt> or, at least, missing some newer ones
1392 2013-05-05 14:37:31 <lianj> (but a good start)
1393 2013-05-05 14:38:15 saulimus has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1394 2013-05-05 14:41:51 <bitRipperX> ok, so if I understand correctly. coinbase transactions (first tx in a block message) MUST have 1 input with hash 0 and NO prev_out index (n=-1).
1395 2013-05-05 14:41:55 XertroV has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1396 2013-05-05 14:42:33 <bitRipperX> single transaction messages MUST NOT have hash 0 and must have prev_out index > -1
1397 2013-05-05 14:43:06 <BlueMatt> IsCoinbase() const {         return (vin.size() == 1 && vin[0].prevout.IsNull()); }
1398 2013-05-05 14:43:08 <BlueMatt> so, yes
1399 2013-05-05 14:43:27 lolcookie has joined
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1401 2013-05-05 14:43:34 <bitRipperX> ok cool
1402 2013-05-05 14:43:38 <bitRipperX> thanks
1403 2013-05-05 14:43:45 <BlueMatt> and of course COutPoint's     bool IsNull() const { return (hash == 0 && n == (unsigned int) -1); }
1404 2013-05-05 14:44:19 gtklocker has joined
1405 2013-05-05 14:44:28 <gtklocker> Hi. I want to confirm the Bitcoin-Qt dmg I downloaded since SF has plain HTTP. Any tips on how to trust a GPG key that signs a checksum of that package?
1406 2013-05-05 14:45:59 flykoko has joined
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1409 2013-05-05 14:49:27 <bitRipperX> exit
1410 2013-05-05 14:49:30 bitRipperX has quit (Quit: leaving)
1411 2013-05-05 14:49:40 bitRipperX has joined
1412 2013-05-05 14:50:03 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1413 2013-05-05 14:50:20 <bitRipperX> one more question. Rule 5 of block messages: "Block timestamp must not be more than two hours in the future". Why allow future timestamps at all?
1414 2013-05-05 14:51:09 <sipa> because clocks are not perfectly synchronized
1415 2013-05-05 14:51:23 <sipa> though 2 hours is way too much margin imho
1416 2013-05-05 14:51:30 <sipa> it doesn't really hurt either, though
1417 2013-05-05 14:51:38 <sipa> something like a minute should be fine
1418 2013-05-05 14:52:14 <bitRipperX> fair enough. makes sense.
1419 2013-05-05 14:54:01 bibbybob has joined
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1422 2013-05-05 14:58:08 <bitRipperX>  Block Messages Rule 16.1.2 "For case 1, adding to main branch: For each input, if we are using the nth output of the earlier transaction, but it has fewer than n+1 outputs, reject."
1423 2013-05-05 14:58:45 <bitRipperX> Is this saying, check if there is at least 1 transaction fee in teh block. I'm guessing that's what the +1 would be?
1424 2013-05-05 14:59:30 skinnkavaj has joined
1425 2013-05-05 14:59:48 <skinnkavaj> how can i import a private key into bitcoin-qt?
1426 2013-05-05 14:59:58 Nash has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1427 2013-05-05 15:00:36 <skinnkavaj> like if i go to https://www.bitaddress.org/ and make a private key, how can i then use it in bitcoin-qt for windows?
1428 2013-05-05 15:00:47 datagutt_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1432 2013-05-05 15:02:13 <sipa> debug console -> importprivkey <key>
1433 2013-05-05 15:02:36 <sipa> or importprivkey <key> false
1434 2013-05-05 15:02:42 <sipa> if you don't want to rescan
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1436 2013-05-05 15:03:41 <skinnkavaj> sipa: do i need to redownload the blockchain if i use the first command importprivkey <key>?
1437 2013-05-05 15:03:49 <sipa> no
1438 2013-05-05 15:04:02 <skinnkavaj> whats the difference between rescan and redownload the blockchain?
1439 2013-05-05 15:04:29 <sipa> rescan just searching the blockchain for transactions affecting your wallet
1440 2013-05-05 15:04:45 <sipa> reindex does that, but also reindexes and revalidates the entire chain
1441 2013-05-05 15:05:05 <sipa> redownloading is all that, but without having the chain already present
1442 2013-05-05 15:05:15 <sipa> rescan takes 10 minutes or so
1443 2013-05-05 15:05:19 <sipa> reindex several hours
1444 2013-05-05 15:05:37 <skinnkavaj> alright thanks
1445 2013-05-05 15:05:41 da2ce7_d has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1446 2013-05-05 15:05:46 datagutt_ has joined
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1451 2013-05-05 15:19:12 <skinnkavaj> sipa: how can i use bitcoin-qt to get the private key? when i export to .csv i just get the public adresses
1452 2013-05-05 15:19:26 cads has joined
1453 2013-05-05 15:19:31 <sipa> debug console -> dumpprivkey <address>
1454 2013-05-05 15:19:43 <sipa> skinnkavaj: are you aware of how change addresses work?
1455 2013-05-05 15:19:58 <skinnkavaj> no not really
1456 2013-05-05 15:20:02 <skinnkavaj> can i make mistakes?
1457 2013-05-05 15:21:15 <skinnkavaj> i understand why its used, but not how
1458 2013-05-05 15:21:49 SirDefaced has joined
1459 2013-05-05 15:21:53 <sipa> you know that every transaction you make will likely create a new address, and send change there?
1460 2013-05-05 15:22:14 <sipa> because if you don't, and you fiddle manually with individual addresses, you're very likely to shoot yourself in the foot
1461 2013-05-05 15:22:25 serp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1462 2013-05-05 15:23:15 sydna has joined
1463 2013-05-05 15:23:22 serp has joined
1464 2013-05-05 15:23:41 <sipa> also, change addresses are not listed in the GUI, so you may miss them if you try to export every wallet key
1465 2013-05-05 15:24:13 sydna has quit (Client Quit)
1466 2013-05-05 15:24:35 <skinnkavaj> sipa: so the best way is to backup the whole .dat file instead of each single privatekey?
1467 2013-05-05 15:24:38 sydna has joined
1468 2013-05-05 15:24:40 <sipa> absolutely
1469 2013-05-05 15:24:41 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1470 2013-05-05 15:24:53 <sipa> don't bother micro-managing your addresses
1471 2013-05-05 15:25:19 <skinnkavaj> but then i have to redownload the whole blockchain if i back it up to a usb memory and go to a new computer?
1472 2013-05-05 15:25:22 <sipa> no
1473 2013-05-05 15:25:28 canoon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1474 2013-05-05 15:25:38 peddamat has joined
1475 2013-05-05 15:25:39 <sipa> well, you need the blockchain on the new computer of course
1476 2013-05-05 15:25:48 <skinnkavaj> yes and that takes time
1477 2013-05-05 15:25:49 <sipa> but it can come from anywhere, independent of the wallet
1478 2013-05-05 15:26:09 NLNico has quit ()
1479 2013-05-05 15:26:22 <skinnkavaj> feels much easier just using one private key
1480 2013-05-05 15:26:32 <skinnkavaj> to store my pension fund
1481 2013-05-05 15:26:37 <sipa> you still need the blockchain if you backup a private key
1482 2013-05-05 15:26:46 <skinnkavaj> not if i use a web wallet
1483 2013-05-05 15:27:00 <sipa> why the hell would you use a web wallet for your pension fund?
1484 2013-05-05 15:27:26 <skinnkavaj> i mean if i just want to send a small transaction, then delete the keys from blockchain.info web wallet
1485 2013-05-05 15:27:33 <BlueMatt> also, why the hell would you store your pension fund in bitcoin?
1486 2013-05-05 15:27:33 <pZombie> why you would use btc to fund your pension in the first place ?
1487 2013-05-05 15:27:47 <sydna> you've just compromised your private key by exposing it to blockchain.info and "deleting" it.
1488 2013-05-05 15:27:48 <sipa> skinnkavaj: that's even more crazy, imho
1489 2013-05-05 15:28:00 <pZombie> it's highly speculative at this point still, until it is established worldwide
1490 2013-05-05 15:28:08 <sipa> skinnkavaj: there's no reason to assume that the key is gone when you delete it
1491 2013-05-05 15:28:11 <pZombie> not just by some geeks
1492 2013-05-05 15:28:23 iwilcox_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1493 2013-05-05 15:28:29 <sipa> (that's not to say they are malicious - it's just private data you've given up, don't assume it is private anymore)
1494 2013-05-05 15:28:34 <sydna> sipa: in the case of strongcoin.com, the keys aren't deleted when the GUI says they are
1495 2013-05-05 15:28:48 iwilcox_ has joined
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1498 2013-05-05 15:28:52 <skinnkavaj> blockchain.info says its delteed from the server
1499 2013-05-05 15:28:55 <skinnkavaj> but who knows really
1500 2013-05-05 15:29:13 <sydna> blockchain.info has also got the issue of allowing third parties to download your encrypted wallet blob.
1501 2013-05-05 15:29:21 <sipa> skinnkavaj: in general, i advise against 1) using the same wallet from multiple locations/client  2) managing your private keys individually
1502 2013-05-05 15:29:28 <PK> By the time I go into pension, bitcoin is either death or so well established that I'll give an envelope with the paper wallet's private key to my banker and ask them to transfer it to my account :)
1503 2013-05-05 15:29:58 <skinnkavaj> PK: why would you trust banks? i want to be my own bank thats the concept
1504 2013-05-05 15:30:03 <sipa> if you like a webwallet's convenience, no problem if you know the risk, but please don't give them your private keys - generate new ones there, and send coins there if you must
1505 2013-05-05 15:30:04 <pZombie> make a new wallet, transfer your coins there, backup the wallet on a usb stick, a cdrom and some other medium. Then store those at different places in case you get robbed
1506 2013-05-05 15:30:08 <skinnkavaj> why should i pay anyone to do it for me if i can do it myself
1507 2013-05-05 15:30:14 <pZombie> encrypt the wallet with a password you remember
1508 2013-05-05 15:30:37 <pZombie> even if a thief gets it, you will have enough time to transfer your coins
1509 2013-05-05 15:30:42 <BlueMatt> if you want to be your own banker, safer bet is to get cash and put it in a mattress...
1510 2013-05-05 15:30:49 <sydna> ^
1511 2013-05-05 15:30:53 <PK> skinnkavaj: I won't care by then. I'll be too old and shake a stick at the young people with their fancy google glasses and nfc implants.
1512 2013-05-05 15:31:10 <Belxjander> BlueMatt: that doesn't work with "futon" bedding...
1513 2013-05-05 15:31:15 <skinnkavaj> PK: i from now on, promise myself to never be like you
1514 2013-05-05 15:31:25 <PK> lol
1515 2013-05-05 15:31:27 <skinnkavaj> i'm not going to retire learning new stuff and catching up on new thigns
1516 2013-05-05 15:31:32 <sipa> skinnkavaj: you can act as you please, but not please as you please
1517 2013-05-05 15:31:35 <pZombie> i hear you have wet dreams if you sleep on dollars
1518 2013-05-05 15:31:44 <sydna> on an unrelated note, I found this address along with some android malware. can anyone work out what the hell this person is doing? — so I encountered this address in a post along with some bitcoin-stealing malware https://blockchain.info/address/17aRYZ8rKPxrNzgByQFjUxLm3XuBdxVbaE
1519 2013-05-05 15:31:59 <Belxjander> PK: well the way things are going... I might end up being the weirdest old critter on the block being all old and wrinkly with these shiney new gadgets "plugged in" :P
1520 2013-05-05 15:32:03 <sydna> each small TX goes to an address that splits even more.
1521 2013-05-05 15:32:28 <pZombie> sounds to me like he is generating dust to harm the blockchain
1522 2013-05-05 15:32:30 <PK> Belxjander: and still using the IRC from the 80ties? :P
1523 2013-05-05 15:32:43 <sipa> IRC is from the 90's!
1524 2013-05-05 15:32:50 <skinnkavaj> sipa: i want to tip you for your friendlyness, you always answer my questions.. give me your adress
1525 2013-05-05 15:32:56 <Belxjander> PK: anything stopping me ? :P
1526 2013-05-05 15:33:16 <sydna> pZombie: that's my only explanation at this point. I've gone through a number of them now and the number of addresses is vast
1527 2013-05-05 15:33:50 <sipa> skinnkavaj: thanks, but no need
1528 2013-05-05 15:33:57 bibbybob has joined
1529 2013-05-05 15:34:28 <BlueMatt> sydna: or just trying to split it all up to make it hard to track and make it look like its being spent (doing a terrible job of that...) so that they can spend it later
1530 2013-05-05 15:34:57 <sydna> they'll surely pay more in fees than the bitcoin is worth though
1531 2013-05-05 15:35:13 Sealy has quit (Quit: Sealy)
1532 2013-05-05 15:35:21 <sydna> this one address has 195 junk transactions, all with a 0.005BTC fee
1533 2013-05-05 15:35:45 <skinnkavaj> sipa: alright as you wish.. can you explain to me why the function to import .dat files into bitcoin-qt was removed?
1534 2013-05-05 15:35:46 <pZombie> those who try to harm the blockchain this way, probably do not care about money
1535 2013-05-05 15:35:57 <sipa> skinnkavaj: removed? :o
1536 2013-05-05 15:36:05 <skinnkavaj> i can't see it?
1537 2013-05-05 15:36:09 <sipa> i know of no such feature ever existing
1538 2013-05-05 15:36:11 <sydna> they probably do, given that they are distributing wallet stealing malware
1539 2013-05-05 15:36:18 <skinnkavaj> no way to import .dat files
1540 2013-05-05 15:36:21 <skinnkavaj> just a way to export them
1541 2013-05-05 15:36:30 <sipa> skinnkavaj: just put the backupped wallet.dat in your datadir
1542 2013-05-05 15:36:31 <PK> sipa: I thought IRC dates back to 1988 or so?
1543 2013-05-05 15:36:47 <skinnkavaj> sipa: but why isn't it in gui interface??
1544 2013-05-05 15:36:55 <sipa> skinnkavaj: because nobody ever bothered writing it
1545 2013-05-05 15:36:58 <sipa> PK: hmm, i wouldn't remember, but the RFC is from 1993
1546 2013-05-05 15:37:02 <wumpus> skinnkavaj: because it must be replaced while the program is not running
1547 2013-05-05 15:37:25 cads has joined
1548 2013-05-05 15:37:45 <wumpus> skinnkavaj: and true multiwallet support is coming anyway
1549 2013-05-05 15:37:50 FredEE has joined
1550 2013-05-05 15:37:55 <skinnkavaj> wumpus: multiwallet?
1551 2013-05-05 15:38:02 gtklocker has left ()
1552 2013-05-05 15:38:08 <sydna> multiple.. wallets
1553 2013-05-05 15:38:21 systemParanoid has joined
1554 2013-05-05 15:38:21 <skinnkavaj> why do i even need that? :s
1555 2013-05-05 15:38:37 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1556 2013-05-05 15:38:40 <sipa> skinnkavaj: it means open/close wallets as you please, instead of just having one hardcoded wallet
1557 2013-05-05 15:38:44 <wumpus> eh, exactly because of what you're doing? using multiple wallets?
1558 2013-05-05 15:38:58 <sipa> wumpus: regarding the key dump format... multibit/androidwallet actually support encrypting that file
1559 2013-05-05 15:39:01 <wumpus> otherwise there would be no need to replace the wallet.dat right
1560 2013-05-05 15:39:11 <sipa> wumpus: which we'll likely need to implement too to be compatible
1561 2013-05-05 15:39:16 <pZombie> skinnkavaj to start with a fresh wallet when the current wallet is too messed up for example
1562 2013-05-05 15:39:20 <wumpus> sipa: ok, that'd be great, I wasn't aware of that
1563 2013-05-05 15:39:30 <skinnkavaj> pZombie: how can it become messed up?
1564 2013-05-05 15:39:58 <pZombie> skinnkavaj - software you used creating new keys possibly, like p2pool does
1565 2013-05-05 15:40:03 <wumpus> lol "too messed up"... no, it's not for that, it for being able to keep wallets for different purposes isolated, for the same reason you'd have multiple bank accounts for example...
1566 2013-05-05 15:40:10 flatfly has joined
1567 2013-05-05 15:40:14 <pZombie> and you find yourself with a lot of unused keys in the end
1568 2013-05-05 15:40:22 <skinnkavaj> wumpus: then you could just use a new private key?
1569 2013-05-05 15:40:23 <pZombie> so you want a clean wallet with just 1 key
1570 2013-05-05 15:40:44 <pZombie> 1 visible key*
1571 2013-05-05 15:40:48 <wumpus> no, that does not provide privacy and isolation skinnkavaj, and in any case the abstraction that we use is *wallets* not *privae  keys*
1572 2013-05-05 15:41:02 <wumpus> a wallet contains multiple private keys
1573 2013-05-05 15:41:16 <sipa> a wallet has several "entry points", called addresses
1574 2013-05-05 15:41:24 <wumpus> right
1575 2013-05-05 15:41:32 <pZombie> it's easier to move a wallet that a key
1576 2013-05-05 15:41:36 <pZombie> than*
1577 2013-05-05 15:41:51 <sipa> but how it manages coins, assigned to the block chain visible concept called addresses (i'd rather call that key ids, though), is a black box
1578 2013-05-05 15:41:56 <pZombie> so you might want to put your shopping wallet on a usb stick, and go shopping with it
1579 2013-05-05 15:42:33 <sipa> i think it's a mistake that we call each "address" seen in the chain an address, the word implies that someone expects/accepts coins sent to it
1580 2013-05-05 15:42:36 carl569 has quit ()
1581 2013-05-05 15:42:48 systemParanoid has quit (Client Quit)
1582 2013-05-05 15:43:51 <sydna> someone making a public websites for making "brain wallets" was a bigger mistake
1583 2013-05-05 15:44:12 <sipa> yeah
1584 2013-05-05 15:44:22 <wumpus> trusting such a site is an even bigger mistake
1585 2013-05-05 15:44:24 <skinnkavaj> sydna: you can still use brain wallets right?
1586 2013-05-05 15:44:33 <sydna> nothing stops you, but it's a stupid idea
1587 2013-05-05 15:44:55 <sydna> people insist on using them and then losing hundreds of bitcoin because they don't understand change addresses
1588 2013-05-05 15:44:56 <skinnkavaj> wouldn't you trust https://www.bitaddress.org ?
1589 2013-05-05 15:45:05 <sydna> nope
1590 2013-05-05 15:45:30 <pZombie> skinnkavaj why do you want to trust others with your money$?
1591 2013-05-05 15:45:31 <sydna> they use some funky mouse movement entropy thing
1592 2013-05-05 15:45:43 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1593 2013-05-05 15:45:44 <sipa> i don't trust any website for crypto stuff
1594 2013-05-05 15:45:47 <skinnkavaj> i still don't understand why we use change adresses?
1595 2013-05-05 15:45:49 fanquake has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1596 2013-05-05 15:45:50 <sydna> why would you want to open your funds up to offline attacks anyway?
1597 2013-05-05 15:45:52 <sipa> skinnkavaj: privacy
1598 2013-05-05 15:46:23 <pZombie> skinnkavaj - You can encrypt your wallet with a password, then put it on a usb stick, burn it on cdrom, or multiple of those. I suggest copying it several times on the same medium in case some part gets corrupted
1599 2013-05-05 15:46:35 fanquake has joined
1600 2013-05-05 15:46:42 <sydna> also bear in mind that CD ROM disks rot.
1601 2013-05-05 15:46:45 fanquake has quit (Client Quit)
1602 2013-05-05 15:46:45 <skinnkavaj> sydna: its not likely anyone would be able to steal my usb memory when i have so many
1603 2013-05-05 15:46:49 <pZombie> even if someone steals one of the media you put it on, he cannot do anything with it, without the password you remember
1604 2013-05-05 15:47:07 <skinnkavaj> pZombie: if i encrypt it with a password, i'm afraid i will forget that if i have a stroke or something :p
1605 2013-05-05 15:47:09 <pZombie> sydna you can copy them again every 10 years
1606 2013-05-05 15:47:21 <sydna> skinnkavaj: if you use a brain wallet, anybody in the world can attack it as they would a password. go send some bitcoin to the brain wallet for "password", I dare you
1607 2013-05-05 15:47:44 <wumpus> skinnkavaj: you can use a relatively simple password, if you provide more physical security (ie put it in a safe)
1608 2013-05-05 15:47:49 <wumpus> sydna: exactly
1609 2013-05-05 15:48:02 <pZombie> skinnkavaj - then store that password online somewhere safe. One would have to steal your online password AND your media. Quite a low chance
1610 2013-05-05 15:48:03 <sipa> don't forget that the entire world can continuously and without rate limiting brute-force attack your brain wallet, and can do so *for eternity*
1611 2013-05-05 15:48:31 <sydna> it's prevalent enough that I've seen people link to GUI for cracking brain wallets
1612 2013-05-05 15:48:45 <jgm> Can't believe the effort that people are going to.  1) Get some bitcoins.  2) Sell them and buy gold.  3) Melt gold down in to teeth. 4) Fit gold teeth in to your mouth (remembering to remove existing teeth with pliers first).    Simple
1613 2013-05-05 15:48:48 <skinnkavaj> sipa: then they have to know the bitcoin adress right?
1614 2013-05-05 15:48:56 <sydna> skinnkavaj: no.
1615 2013-05-05 15:49:00 <sipa> skinnkavaj: they can see all addresses, the blockchain is public
1616 2013-05-05 15:49:14 <wumpus> sydna: I've called even heard some people call it more lucrative than mining
1617 2013-05-05 15:49:28 <skinnkavaj> sipa, sydna: so how does a password protect you better then?
1618 2013-05-05 15:49:34 <sipa> wumpus: i think you're talking about vanity address mining
1619 2013-05-05 15:49:40 <sipa> skinnkavaj: ???
1620 2013-05-05 15:49:49 <sydna> wumpus: wonder how well it works out. I suspect if I send some funds to a stupid address like "password" it would be gone within a few minutes
1621 2013-05-05 15:49:53 <wumpus> oh thats's possible too
1622 2013-05-05 15:50:01 <sydna> sipa: no, he would have meant brain wallet hacking.
1623 2013-05-05 15:50:09 <skinnkavaj> sorry i'm talking about bitadresses i think its called vanitygen
1624 2013-05-05 15:50:10 <sydna> well, lets try it out
1625 2013-05-05 15:50:11 <skinnkavaj> not brainwallet
1626 2013-05-05 15:50:14 <skinnkavaj> as in url
1627 2013-05-05 15:50:28 <sipa> i'm pretty sure brainwallet cracking is not profitable now
1628 2013-05-05 15:50:42 <wumpus> only if you get lucky, ie very high variance
1629 2013-05-05 15:50:52 <sydna> someone posted one in #bitcoin last night. it was a stupid phrase that had 88BTC in it
1630 2013-05-05 15:51:07 <sydna> The Quick Brown Fox Jumped Over The Lazy Dog
1631 2013-05-05 15:51:09 <sydna> that was it
1632 2013-05-05 15:51:13 <wumpus> haha
1633 2013-05-05 15:51:15 <kronicd_> lol
1634 2013-05-05 15:51:16 <SirDefaced> when trying to compile Bitcoin-qt.pro i keep getting these warnings Missing initializer "boost::shared_mutex::state_data", any idea?
1635 2013-05-05 15:51:26 <jgm> That's terrible.  It isn't even the correct phrase.  Some people...
1636 2013-05-05 15:51:31 <sipa> SirDefaced: what boost version, what OS?
1637 2013-05-05 15:51:40 <SirDefaced> sorry 1.53 windows 7
1638 2013-05-05 15:51:41 <sydna> the address for that wallet — https://blockchain.info/address/1ByuDqbsSxpUQqyTqQUMHTFkDHANFyHuU7
1639 2013-05-05 15:51:44 <sydna> 85.5BTC
1640 2013-05-05 15:51:49 <sipa> SirDefaced: good luck then
1641 2013-05-05 15:51:52 <SirDefaced> LOL!
1642 2013-05-05 15:51:56 <skinnkavaj> sipa: can you send me a guide the best way to backup (and later use) my pension fund
1643 2013-05-05 15:52:09 <sipa> SirDefaced: you may talk to diki or Diapolo if they're here
1644 2013-05-05 15:52:14 <kronicd_> gettin paid
1645 2013-05-05 15:52:53 <SirDefaced> k thank you. I'm just so close to getting this to work I feel. The qt compiles, it just throws a db error and crashes based on the mutex error.
1646 2013-05-05 15:53:00 lolcookie_ has joined
1647 2013-05-05 15:53:43 rdponticelli has joined
1648 2013-05-05 15:53:58 <sydna> alright, to prove the point, I just sent some coins to a common brain wallet
1649 2013-05-05 15:54:04 <sydna> lets see how long it takes to disappear
1650 2013-05-05 15:54:08 sud3n has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1651 2013-05-05 15:54:15 ASSNTITTIES has joined
1652 2013-05-05 15:55:20 <wumpus> haha, a canary
1653 2013-05-05 15:55:53 <sydna> I'll post the TX later. assuming the coins disappear
1654 2013-05-05 15:56:17 <lianj> sydna: 0.0001?
1655 2013-05-05 15:56:41 <sydna> lianj: yep.
1656 2013-05-05 15:56:51 <lianj> [:found, "16ga2uqnF1NqpAuQeeg7sTCAdtDUwDyJav", "5e884898da28047151d0e56f8dc6292773603d0d6aabbdd62a11ef721d1542d8", "password"]
1657 2013-05-05 15:56:57 <lianj> someone else can have it
1658 2013-05-05 15:56:57 lolcookie has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1659 2013-05-05 15:57:17 <sydna> lianj: you're doing lookups on new TX on the fly?
1660 2013-05-05 15:57:57 roconnor has joined
1661 2013-05-05 15:58:05 <lianj> no, then it had moved them off already. but i bet some do it
1662 2013-05-05 15:58:07 lolcookie_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1663 2013-05-05 15:58:46 <sydna> I suspect so too. all the other TXs in this brain wallet had funds added, and then removed about 5 minutes later
1664 2013-05-05 15:58:53 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1665 2013-05-05 15:58:56 ASSNTITTIES is now known as lolcookie
1666 2013-05-05 15:58:58 <lianj> hehe and gone
1667 2013-05-05 15:59:36 <lianj> sydna: yep, just never come around to add it, and racing against others becomes a latency thing anyway
1668 2013-05-05 15:59:52 <skinnkavaj> can anyone give me a guide on how to make the most secure backup of your wallet?
1669 2013-05-05 16:00:12 <skinnkavaj> so i can delete wallet from my pc
1670 2013-05-05 16:00:36 <pZombie> skinnkavaj - why? You don't know how to burn a cd or copy a file to a usb stick?
1671 2013-05-05 16:00:42 <skinnkavaj> yes
1672 2013-05-05 16:01:02 johnsoft1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1673 2013-05-05 16:01:02 <skinnkavaj> but how do i know my pc isn't already infected with malware
1674 2013-05-05 16:01:31 <pZombie> detach it from the internet
1675 2013-05-05 16:01:33 <jgm> skinnkavaj: if it is then you need to abandon your wallet and start again
1676 2013-05-05 16:01:34 Ogig has joined
1677 2013-05-05 16:01:36 <pZombie> copy your wallet
1678 2013-05-05 16:01:55 <pZombie> check if the wallet you copied actually works when decrypting it
1679 2013-05-05 16:02:02 <pZombie> if it does
1680 2013-05-05 16:02:04 <pZombie> format c
1681 2013-05-05 16:02:11 <pZombie> install windows
1682 2013-05-05 16:02:21 <sipa> better: install an operating system
1683 2013-05-05 16:02:24 <sipa> or boot from a livecd
1684 2013-05-05 16:02:28 <sydna> probably not the best advice there pZombie
1685 2013-05-05 16:02:39 <pZombie> reconnect to the internet and be a happy panda, unless you had a system management rootkit on your pc
1686 2013-05-05 16:02:53 <pZombie> sydna feel free to give better advice
1687 2013-05-05 16:03:12 <BlueMatt> 1st: reflash bios after downloading a safe copy from a trusted pc/internet connection...2nd install recent version of linux...
1688 2013-05-05 16:03:13 <sydna> a live CD would be better. even without internet, malware can still tamper with your wallets.
1689 2013-05-05 16:06:20 <skinnkavaj> is the wallet.dat compatible with whatever OS i'm running?
1690 2013-05-05 16:06:27 <skinnkavaj> like if i backup wallet.dat on a mac
1691 2013-05-05 16:06:30 <skinnkavaj> can i use it in windows later?
1692 2013-05-05 16:06:33 datagutt_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1693 2013-05-05 16:06:38 <sipa> in theory
1694 2013-05-05 16:06:41 <BlueMatt> mostly
1695 2013-05-05 16:06:49 <BlueMatt> just dont use distro packages on linux
1696 2013-05-05 16:07:39 richcollins has joined
1697 2013-05-05 16:08:11 saulimus has joined
1698 2013-05-05 16:08:15 <pZombie> skinnkavaj you might want to keep a copy of the client version you use atm as well. You can use that to export private keys and import them into a client with a newer version in the future which could be incompatible with your old wallet file
1699 2013-05-05 16:08:31 gagecolton has joined
1700 2013-05-05 16:09:01 <pZombie> i exported 3 private keys and imported them into a different wallet once. It works
1701 2013-05-05 16:09:06 <skinnkavaj> how do i backup a copy of the client version?
1702 2013-05-05 16:09:10 <skinnkavaj> are u just talking about version number?
1703 2013-05-05 16:09:20 jeewee has joined
1704 2013-05-05 16:09:21 <pZombie> i mean the bitcoin-qt client you use right now
1705 2013-05-05 16:09:29 <skinnkavaj> how do i back it up?
1706 2013-05-05 16:09:40 <pZombie> download it of the website?
1707 2013-05-05 16:09:49 <pZombie> and put it on the media?
1708 2013-05-05 16:09:51 paraipan has joined
1709 2013-05-05 16:09:56 rdponticelli has joined
1710 2013-05-05 16:09:56 qeb has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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1714 2013-05-05 16:13:48 <Eremes> guys if I created a bitcoin address and private key from bitaddress.org . will the admin there know my private key ?
1715 2013-05-05 16:13:51 <skinnkavaj> so if i have to backup a copy of the client version as well, it feels much easier to just backup the private key because that will work with every new version... right?
1716 2013-05-05 16:13:59 <Eremes> how legit is that site ?
1717 2013-05-05 16:14:10 <sydna> Eremes: who knows.
1718 2013-05-05 16:14:38 <sipa> Eremes: "So I left this bar of gold in my house, and left the door unlocked. Will it get stolen" -> most likely no, but do you want to take the risk?
1719 2013-05-05 16:14:43 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1720 2013-05-05 16:15:09 <pZombie> skinnkavaj backing up private keys is not as easy as it sounds. It requires you to use the command line
1721 2013-05-05 16:15:36 <sipa> right now, it's effectively impossible to make a full backup of all individual keys in a wallet
1722 2013-05-05 16:15:38 <pZombie> i think it is MUCH easier for you to backup the wallet and have the old client somewhere stored just in case
1723 2013-05-05 16:15:44 <sipa> except by backuping up the wallet file
1724 2013-05-05 16:16:02 rdponticelli has joined
1725 2013-05-05 16:16:03 <pZombie> you can always export the keys that are in use with that
1726 2013-05-05 16:16:09 <skinnkavaj> sydna: bitadress.org does it work the samy way like a "brainwallet"? because with bitadress.org you also get a unique URL i think
1727 2013-05-05 16:16:34 <Vinnie_win> Why was "Snappy" support removed from LevelDB in this commit id: 6cb15a9
1728 2013-05-05 16:16:45 <sydna> the address on bitaddress.org is fairly meaningless
1729 2013-05-05 16:16:47 <sipa> Vinnie_win: because we tested it, and it gained us nothing
1730 2013-05-05 16:16:56 <sipa> Vinnie_win: so for compatibility reasons it was easier to remove it
1731 2013-05-05 16:17:00 <skinnkavaj> sydna: how come? isn't it the same as a brainwallet?
1732 2013-05-05 16:17:07 ardeay_ has joined
1733 2013-05-05 16:17:12 <Vinnie_win> sipa: but why take it out of the makefile? I want to submit Bitcoin's changes to the upstream LevelDB repo but they won't take it if it is missing the Snappy stuff
1734 2013-05-05 16:17:31 <sydna> skinnkavaj: the private keys it makes are in the same format, if that's what you're asking
1735 2013-05-05 16:17:41 <sipa> Vinnie_win: dependencies are hard for us, given the deterministic build process
1736 2013-05-05 16:17:52 <sipa> Vinnie_win: snappy wasn't trivial to get working on every platform
1737 2013-05-05 16:18:09 <skinnkavaj> sydna: but you put up a test to point out how easy it is to get stolen?
1738 2013-05-05 16:18:10 <Vinnie_win> sipa: Perhaps instead of just removing it, there could be a macro "DISASBLE_SNAPPY"
1739 2013-05-05 16:18:36 <sipa> Vinnie_win: perhaps, but it's not like it's hard to put back in either
1740 2013-05-05 16:18:44 <sydna> skinnkavaj: the method both websites use to make addresses is not secure, that was the point I was making.
1741 2013-05-05 16:19:27 <sydna> skinnkavaj: just believe me and sipa and others. don't use a brain wallet.
1742 2013-05-05 16:19:30 <skinnkavaj> alright so i guess i shouldnt keep my pension fund on a usb memory private key generated by bitadresses.org?
1743 2013-05-05 16:19:45 <skinnkavaj> i'm just asking if there is a difference between bitadresses.org and brainwallet.org
1744 2013-05-05 16:19:58 <sydna> different people made them.
1745 2013-05-05 16:20:08 <sydna> who knows which if either is secure
1746 2013-05-05 16:20:22 <sipa> Vinnie_win: anyway, it'd be nice to get the changes upstream... i was thinking about that myself, though i think the windows version may need a bit more time to be stable enough
1747 2013-05-05 16:20:30 <Eremes> just read here
1748 2013-05-05 16:20:31 <Eremes> https://github.com/pointbiz/bitaddress.org/blob/master/README
1749 2013-05-05 16:20:35 <Eremes> bitaddress.org is legit
1750 2013-05-05 16:20:36 <Eremes> lol
1751 2013-05-05 16:20:40 <Vinnie_win> sipa: It's better than what they have now...which is nothing
1752 2013-05-05 16:20:48 <Eremes> you can use it while offline
1753 2013-05-05 16:20:54 <sydna> Eremes: so?
1754 2013-05-05 16:20:59 <sipa> Vinnie_win: hmm? there is a windows version i thought, but it uses boost
1755 2013-05-05 16:21:00 <skinnkavaj> is it legit?
1756 2013-05-05 16:21:08 <Vinnie_win> sipa: Of LevelDB?
1757 2013-05-05 16:21:13 <skinnkavaj> sipa: whats your opinion about bitadress.org
1758 2013-05-05 16:21:22 <sydna> Eremes: just because you can use it offline doesn't mean that the source presented by the website is always the same.
1759 2013-05-05 16:21:29 <Vinnie_win> sipa: The windows support for LevelDB is a separate branch that has been neglected and forgotten
1760 2013-05-05 16:21:37 <sydna> Eremes: the private key could also be deterministic to some degree.
1761 2013-05-05 16:21:39 <sipa> Vinnie_win: i see; we used that one before
1762 2013-05-05 16:21:48 <Eremes> sydna: hmm make sense
1763 2013-05-05 16:21:49 <sipa> skinnkavaj: i don't trust any website for crypto stuff
1764 2013-05-05 16:22:28 <Vinnie_win> sipa: When you say "deterministic build system" you mean that you want to make sure that the build is the same for all environments regardless of what is on their system? The Snappy stuff in the makefile was conditional on the snappy header being present
1765 2013-05-05 16:22:42 <sydna> Eremes: there's whole groups of programmers dedicated to underhanded coding. making things look legit that have small weaknesses. I wouldn't trust a quick read over to find anything out of place like that.
1766 2013-05-05 16:23:06 <sipa> Vinnie_win: we use gitian, which uses a deterministic virtual machine running ubuntu to produce release binaries
1767 2013-05-05 16:23:09 <sydna> Eremes: if you have some C knowledge, have a look at some of the winners on http://underhanded.xcott.com/
1768 2013-05-05 16:23:22 taha has joined
1769 2013-05-05 16:23:31 <sipa> Vinnie_win: IIRC the snappy detection itself wasn't working when cross-compiling for windows inside gitian
1770 2013-05-05 16:23:32 bitit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1771 2013-05-05 16:23:49 D34TH has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1772 2013-05-05 16:23:53 D34TH_ has joined
1773 2013-05-05 16:23:55 bitit has joined
1774 2013-05-05 16:24:24 <sipa> Vinnie_win: i have no problems with a DISABLE_SNAPPY wrapper around that piece of detection code
1775 2013-05-05 16:24:45 <skinnkavaj> synda: if i use bitadress.org offline, how can they then know which private key i really sent the btc to? i can click it like 10x times offline
1776 2013-05-05 16:25:01 D34TH_ is now known as D34TH
1777 2013-05-05 16:25:05 <sipa> skinnkavaj: did you check the code?
1778 2013-05-05 16:25:06 <Vinnie_win> sipa: Cool. I will see what I can do. Unfortunately I'm using visual studio but I need to set up a VM with Linux anyway.
1779 2013-05-05 16:25:12 <sipa> skinnkavaj: do you know the code won't change?
1780 2013-05-05 16:25:22 <skinnkavaj> sipa: can the code change offline?
1781 2013-05-05 16:25:55 <sipa> skinnkavaj: no, but perhaps it still stores the keys in your browser, and tries to send them afterwards?
1782 2013-05-05 16:26:01 <sipa> skinnkavaj: do you know?
1783 2013-05-05 16:26:03 asm_ has joined
1784 2013-05-05 16:26:10 <skinnkavaj> sipa: so if i uninstall my browser after using it then :p
1785 2013-05-05 16:26:21 <sipa> skinnkavaj: perhaps they're already sent then?
1786 2013-05-05 16:26:29 <skinnkavaj> how can it be sent offline?
1787 2013-05-05 16:26:38 <BlueMatt> what if keys are pregenerated and are stored on your computer, then when you click new key, it just feeds you what it already has?
1788 2013-05-05 16:26:38 <sipa> what do you mean by offline?
1789 2013-05-05 16:26:47 <sipa> did you unplug your network cable?
1790 2013-05-05 16:26:52 <skinnkavaj> sipa: yes
1791 2013-05-05 16:26:57 <skinnkavaj> i unplugged it
1792 2013-05-05 16:27:05 <sipa> did you save the website locally?
1793 2013-05-05 16:27:17 <sipa> did you check the code that it doesn't do anything weird we didn't think about now?
1794 2013-05-05 16:27:30 <sipa> will you never update from the live website without checking the code?
1795 2013-05-05 16:27:57 <skinnkavaj> what can it possibile do if i generate 10x adresses offline, use one of them, never connect to the internet again?
1796 2013-05-05 16:28:20 <skinnkavaj> there is no way they can send the private key adress back then? :P
1797 2013-05-05 16:28:20 <sipa> Will you?
1798 2013-05-05 16:28:35 <sipa> If that's actually what you do, you're likely safe.
1799 2013-05-05 16:28:38 <BlueMatt> what if keys are pregenerated and are stored on your computer, then when you click new key, it just feeds you what it already has?
1800 2013-05-05 16:28:43 <sipa> But why the hell would you use a website, still?
1801 2013-05-05 16:28:52 <skinnkavaj> sipa: easier, i'm lazy
1802 2013-05-05 16:28:55 <[\\\]> At any rate, if you use a web version, use the inprivate feature of your browser.  That iwll help prevent any sort of long term storage by that site
1803 2013-05-05 16:29:11 <skinnkavaj> yeah i used private mode
1804 2013-05-05 16:29:12 <skinnkavaj> in safari
1805 2013-05-05 16:29:14 <skinnkavaj> on mac
1806 2013-05-05 16:29:41 <skinnkavaj> can't be any way they can steal my private key now
1807 2013-05-05 16:29:58 <BlueMatt> skinnkavaj: what if keys are pregenerated and are stored on your computer, then when you click new key, it just feeds you what it already has?
1808 2013-05-05 16:30:13 <BlueMatt> who said its generating keys locally at all?
1809 2013-05-05 16:30:21 <sipa> If you generated a wallet.dat using bitcoin-qt on an offline system, and then encrypted it before moving to an online system, you'd have a much more featureful wallet, and be just as safe
1810 2013-05-05 16:30:35 <sydna> skinnkavaj: private browsing has nothing to do with that the website can do
1811 2013-05-05 16:30:40 gaantr2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1812 2013-05-05 16:30:40 <[\\\]> You could do something just as functional with Armory as well.
1813 2013-05-05 16:30:48 <sipa> in a sense safer, as the binaries are deterministically built from publically verifiable source code
1814 2013-05-05 16:30:50 <[\\\]> It has a specific online/offline setup designed.
1815 2013-05-05 16:30:59 <sipa> while the website may be serving different code to every user
1816 2013-05-05 16:31:01 gaantr2 has joined
1817 2013-05-05 16:31:22 <skinnkavaj> BlueMatt: good point
1818 2013-05-05 16:31:25 gaantr2 is now known as Guest76486
1819 2013-05-05 16:31:27 <sydna> sipa: or serving the same code to everyone, that makes deterministic keys. I'm suspicious of their whitening.
1820 2013-05-05 16:32:24 <Eremes> how do u extract private key from wallet.dat ?
1821 2013-05-05 16:32:42 <skinnkavaj> sipa: if i do it your way, generate wallet.dat in offline system, encrypot it before moving to an online system, how can i then be sure that when i unecrypt it to send funs any virus doesnt steal it?
1822 2013-05-05 16:32:50 <sydna> ^ you can't
1823 2013-05-05 16:33:05 <[\\\]> How safe is it to feed a random string to the Bitcoin Address Utility on an offline android device?
1824 2013-05-05 16:33:07 <sipa> skinnkavaj: only unencrypt on an offline system :)
1825 2013-05-05 16:33:26 <skinnkavaj> sipa: how do i then send?
1826 2013-05-05 16:33:32 <sydna> the protection against that sort of attack is a hardware wallet like Trezor
1827 2013-05-05 16:33:56 <skinnkavaj> sydna: hardware wallets, couldn't it be hacked? becaise it has to be connected to the internet to send the btc
1828 2013-05-05 16:33:59 <BlueMatt> skinnkavaj: you can send on the offline system, then when you load the wallet in an online system, it will reannounce the tx you created on the offline system
1829 2013-05-05 16:34:21 <sipa> skinnkavaj: move the encrypted wallet to an online system, to watch the funds; if you want to spend, use createrawtransaction, copy the unsigned transaction to the offline system, use signrawtransaction there after decrypting, move it back, and publish it using sendrawtransaction
1830 2013-05-05 16:34:25 <skinnkavaj> BlueMatt: does any clients support this?
1831 2013-05-05 16:34:33 <skinnkavaj> without too much hazzle
1832 2013-05-05 16:34:44 <[\\\]> BlueMatt: You have to admit that that amount of cumbersomeness makes it a bit rediculous for many users.
1833 2013-05-05 16:34:50 <sipa> it's likely too much hassle now, but it'll likely be less hassle in the future too :)
1834 2013-05-05 16:35:33 <skinnkavaj> isn't electrum or armory supporting this already?
1835 2013-05-05 16:35:39 <skinnkavaj> with a few clicks in gui
1836 2013-05-05 16:35:40 <sipa> armory does, afaik
1837 2013-05-05 16:35:43 <[\\\]> armory does
1838 2013-05-05 16:35:43 <sydna> armoury probably.
1839 2013-05-05 16:35:53 <[\\\]> using offline tx shipping
1840 2013-05-05 16:36:17 <BlueMatt> skinnkavaj: yes, what I just described bitcoin-qt will do
1841 2013-05-05 16:36:32 PRab has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1842 2013-05-05 16:36:40 <skinnkavaj> but thats too much hazzle with having to write in commands, instead of a few clicks in a interface
1843 2013-05-05 16:36:44 BCBot` has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1844 2013-05-05 16:36:52 <sydna> ...
1845 2013-05-05 16:36:53 <skinnkavaj> but i think i will download armory to test it out
1846 2013-05-05 16:37:31 <[\\\]> Forgive me for not just testing it, but does -blocknotify run after every new block notification?
1847 2013-05-05 16:37:32 <BlueMatt> skinnkavaj: you dont need any commands to encrypt your wallet in bitcoin-qt, and move it around between computers on a flash drive...
1848 2013-05-05 16:37:50 <sydna> c1731e3de66934c7a1686e7a2836d216
1849 2013-05-05 16:37:52 <[\\\]> Flash drives can be compromised
1850 2013-05-05 16:38:03 <sipa> [\\\]: yes, every new block in the chain
1851 2013-05-05 16:38:04 <skinnkavaj> BlueMatt: but to "you can send on the offline system, then when you load the wallet in an online system, it will reannounce the tx you created on the offline system" i guess you need to do commands?
1852 2013-05-05 16:38:11 <sipa> skinnkavaj: no
1853 2013-05-05 16:38:17 <sipa> reannouncing is automatic
1854 2013-05-05 16:38:22 <BlueMatt> nope, it does it all automagically
1855 2013-05-05 16:38:28 <[\\\]> sipa: how about a reorg?
1856 2013-05-05 16:38:35 <skinnkavaj> alright, so what good does armory do then?
1857 2013-05-05 16:38:38 <[\\\]> (for the blocknotify)
1858 2013-05-05 16:38:44 <sipa> [\\\]: i mean every new *tip* of the chain
1859 2013-05-05 16:38:52 <[\\\]> ok.
1860 2013-05-05 16:39:03 <BlueMatt> skinnkavaj: armory has all kinds of fancy wallet types, supporting "HD" wallets
1861 2013-05-05 16:39:10 <skinnkavaj> HD wallets, wtf?
1862 2013-05-05 16:39:22 <skinnkavaj> high defintion wallets
1863 2013-05-05 16:39:25 <sipa> hierarchical deterministic wallets
1864 2013-05-05 16:39:37 <BlueMatt> for the record, I voted against calling them HD...
1865 2013-05-05 16:39:51 <sydna> probably could have been named better
1866 2013-05-05 16:39:59 <skinnkavaj> so whats hierarchical deterministic wallets?
1867 2013-05-05 16:40:15 <skinnkavaj> english please
1868 2013-05-05 16:40:37 <sipa> skinnkavaj: read BIP32
1869 2013-05-05 16:40:51 <sipa> it's standard for deterministic wallets
1870 2013-05-05 16:42:46 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
1871 2013-05-05 16:43:05 paybitcoin has joined
1872 2013-05-05 16:43:09 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
1873 2013-05-05 16:44:38 <skinnkavaj> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0032
1874 2013-05-05 16:44:41 <BlueMatt> yep
1875 2013-05-05 16:44:46 helo_ is now known as helo
1876 2013-05-05 16:44:50 <skinnkavaj> is this what blockchain.info says they are using?
1877 2013-05-05 16:44:58 <skinnkavaj> and thats how they dont store any private keys on the web server?
1878 2013-05-05 16:45:24 <sipa> nobody is using it, it's not final
1879 2013-05-05 16:45:44 <skinnkavaj> why isn't it final? what needs to be improved?
1880 2013-05-05 16:45:58 <lianj> from wp, "[addresses] always beginning with the digit 1 or 3", never seen a 3 address
1881 2013-05-05 16:46:06 <sipa> lianj: P2SH addresses
1882 2013-05-05 16:46:13 <lianj> oh, thanks.
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1884 2013-05-05 16:47:38 <skinnkavaj> so if you are really paranoid, then you can never be sure that a private key generated offline even when the disk is formated, can be recovered?
1885 2013-05-05 16:47:50 <skinnkavaj> can't be recovered*
1886 2013-05-05 16:47:59 <skinnkavaj> or a wallet even
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1888 2013-05-05 16:48:19 <skinnkavaj> so you have to physically destroy the harddrive
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1890 2013-05-05 16:48:31 <sydna> … no
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1894 2013-05-05 16:49:39 <wumpus> skinnkavaj: well as long as the key has been stored unencrypted on the disk at one point, you indeed can never be sure
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1896 2013-05-05 16:50:26 <skinnkavaj> don't you have to store it unecrypted and then encrypt it?
1897 2013-05-05 16:50:48 <sipa> if you encrypt a wallet, its key pool is flushed
1898 2013-05-05 16:51:00 <wumpus> no, you don't.. for example in bitcoin-qt keys that are created after the wallet is encrypted are never stored unencrypted
1899 2013-05-05 16:51:14 <sipa> so any addresses it gives out after that, are guanranteed never to have touched disk in unencrypted form
1900 2013-05-05 16:51:15 <helo> it would be nice if the wallet could have "untrusted private keys" that it would monitor and send any arriving funds immediately to a new encrypted key
1901 2013-05-05 16:51:39 <sydna> any malware would just adapt to detect that behaviour
1902 2013-05-05 16:51:56 <wumpus> helo: yes, a sweep feature is planned
1903 2013-05-05 16:51:57 <sydna> wait, no, I misread
1904 2013-05-05 16:52:04 <sydna> belay that.
1905 2013-05-05 16:52:14 <helo> wumpus: neat :D
1906 2013-05-05 16:52:26 <wumpus> helo: it's also superior to "importprivkey"
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1908 2013-05-05 16:53:05 <helo> yeah, definitely
1909 2013-05-05 16:53:12 <sydna> importprivkey is getting ridiculously slow anyway. 5+ minutes for me to import one key.
1910 2013-05-05 16:53:21 <helo> probably won't be any faster
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1913 2013-05-05 16:53:50 <helo> but you won't have to worry about manually scrambling to secure any funds sent to it
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1960 2013-05-05 18:00:15 <HaltingState> hey; I need to dump all accounts and all account balance histories for the whole block chain; any ideas?
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1966 2013-05-05 18:06:16 <eqolo> If the United States prohibits any exchange with bc for real money, then it's out of the currency. Then Bitcoin will die. True or false?
1967 2013-05-05 18:06:28 phpwn has joined
1968 2013-05-05 18:06:33 <copumpkin> false
1969 2013-05-05 18:07:14 <HM> hmm
1970 2013-05-05 18:07:33 <HM> I hate my ISP so much
1971 2013-05-05 18:08:19 <vrs> eqolo: parts of the first world aren't situated on the territory of the US
1972 2013-05-05 18:08:41 <eqolo> Please take a look http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-03-21/us-begins-regulating-bitcoin-will-consider-virtual-transactions-money-laundering
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1975 2013-05-05 18:09:50 <vrs> eqolo: anyway, this is -dev, political stuff would probably be more fit for the main channel
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1977 2013-05-05 18:11:47 <gonffen_> #bitcoin is way too political...
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2002 2013-05-05 18:33:44 <HaltingState> how do i check block chain sync from command line on server without GUI?
2003 2013-05-05 18:34:09 <sydna> `bitcoind getinfo`
2004 2013-05-05 18:35:28 <HaltingState> thx
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2034 2013-05-05 19:19:10 <duncancmt> Hi! I'm trying to send a nonstandard transaction and I think I might've messed it up. When I try to send it, I get `error: {"code":-22,"message":"TX rejected"}`. Can somebody take a look at it? http://pastebin.com/FL6NvBWC
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2038 2013-05-05 19:22:02 <rdponticelli> duncancmt: Non standard transactions aren't relayed by default by the client
2039 2013-05-05 19:22:31 <duncancmt> rdponticelli: Is there a way to get it to do that?
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2042 2013-05-05 19:25:06 <rdponticelli> duncancmt: Probably it won't be relayed by other peers nor would be mined, anyway
2043 2013-05-05 19:25:52 <rdponticelli> But you can modify you client to do it, I guess
2044 2013-05-05 19:26:06 <rdponticelli> I think that eligius mines them
2045 2013-05-05 19:26:31 <rdponticelli> If the fee is right, at least
2046 2013-05-05 19:27:23 <duncancmt> Ok, thanks! I still have to modify my client to accept the transaction in the first place, though?
2047 2013-05-05 19:27:42 <rdponticelli> I think so
2048 2013-05-05 19:28:34 <rdponticelli> Check your debug.log for the exact cause of refusal
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2050 2013-05-05 19:33:45 <duncancmt> rdponticelli: `ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : nonstandard transaction type` No surprise there
2051 2013-05-05 19:34:09 <rdponticelli> Yeah, I though so
2052 2013-05-05 19:34:18 <rdponticelli> *thought
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2069 2013-05-05 20:00:24 <eqolo> Last price:$187.80000 High:$266.00000 Low:$105.00000 Volume:234579 BTC Weighted Avg:$178.75303
2070 2013-05-05 20:00:24 <eqolo> Last price:1,138.635 Kr High:1,713.872 Kr Low:763.260 Kr Volume:321 BTC Weighted Avg:1,321.352 Kr
2071 2013-05-05 20:00:30 <eqolo> why does it show 321 Bitcoin in swedish crons?
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2077 2013-05-05 20:05:59 <eqolo> How do I know that a transaction can not use "smart scripted transactions or contracts."? How do I know when the money really is mine for 100%?
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2099 2013-05-05 20:32:22 <skfax> I get a "No information available about transaction (code -5)" returned when trying to use getrawtransaction on 4a5e1e4baab89f3a32518a88c31bc87f618f76673e2cc77ab2127b7afdeda33b (testnet). However the transaction does exist: http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/tx/4a5e1e4baab89f3a32518a88c31bc87f618f76673e2cc77ab2127b7afdeda33b Why does it fail?
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2103 2013-05-05 20:35:28 <jgm> skfax: possibly that was before the last reset, looking at the date
2104 2013-05-05 20:36:29 <skfax> jgm: Ah, so it shouldn't be an issue normally when looking at newer blocks?
2105 2013-05-05 20:37:18 <jgm> well, if that really is from an older testnet.  Try transaction 43ed5f29ecb00744fc18a0ee07b15a80a2e62bcdc5d59b62b870529a90060d33
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2109 2013-05-05 20:39:39 <skfax> jgm: That one works fine
2110 2013-05-05 20:39:50 <jgm> I just picked that one from the last mined block
2111 2013-05-05 20:39:57 <jgm> Oh hang on...
2112 2013-05-05 20:40:13 <rdponticelli> skfax: Did you enable the txindex in your node?
2113 2013-05-05 20:41:08 <rdponticelli> Otherwise, the client don't keep an index for spent transactions not in your wallet
2114 2013-05-05 20:41:58 <skfax> rdponticelli: No, I didn't know about that option
2115 2013-05-05 20:42:08 <skfax> rdponticelli: Does it make a big difference in disk usage?
2116 2013-05-05 20:43:26 <rdponticelli> The extra index uses more disk space, yes
2117 2013-05-05 20:43:32 <rdponticelli> I don't know how much
2118 2013-05-05 20:43:57 <skfax> rdponticelli: Testing it now. Thank you :)
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2120 2013-05-05 20:44:14 <rdponticelli> skfax: You need to reindex too
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2123 2013-05-05 20:45:32 <rdponticelli> skfax: Anyway, is that the genesis block transaction? It isn't indexed
2124 2013-05-05 20:46:32 <skfax> yep, reindexing now
2125 2013-05-05 20:46:52 <skfax> Well, the one I linked first was from block 0
2126 2013-05-05 20:46:59 <rdponticelli> Yeah, anyway that transaction is not spendable, it is not indexed
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2128 2013-05-05 20:47:41 <skfax> I just thought it was odd that I could get the info on transactions from block 6,7,8,11,16,17,19.. etc, but not the others
2129 2013-05-05 20:47:48 <skfax> Since the transactions seemed very similar
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2131 2013-05-05 20:49:29 <rdponticelli> skfax: You can have information for unspent transactions, even without index, because they're in the utxo set
2132 2013-05-05 20:49:44 <rdponticelli> The index is for spent outputs
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2135 2013-05-05 20:52:03 <skfax> rdponticelli: But what do you mean that it is not indexed? It has a hash?
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2137 2013-05-05 20:52:33 <rdponticelli> Yes, it has a hash, but is a special case
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2139 2013-05-05 20:53:15 <rdponticelli> At least the one on the main chain is harcoded in the software and not indexed, I'm not sure about the one on testnet
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2143 2013-05-05 20:53:43 <skfax> rdponticelli: Ok. Sorry, not trying to be difficult :)
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2145 2013-05-05 20:54:10 <skfax> Done with the reindex. Disk usage seems to have remained the same
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2150 2013-05-05 20:58:18 <skfax> rdponticelli: getrawtransaction for http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/tx/4a5e1e4baab89f3a32518a88c31bc87f618f76673e2cc77ab2127b7afdeda33b (block 0) still fails, but http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/tx/e845c15f1d415c901fb8abd04018d6b6abcb0ef3a3855b7b24cda9866902e7d1 (block 6) succeeds. They do seem quite similar though.
2151 2013-05-05 20:59:05 <skfax> rdponticelli: But then I have an explanation. No point in bothering much with these first blocks anyway for my use
2152 2013-05-05 20:59:13 <rdponticelli> skfax: It will always fail for the genesis block
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2154 2013-05-05 20:59:44 <amiller_> i don't understand the block locator object
2155 2013-05-05 20:59:52 <amiller_> i can't figure out where it is supposed to start from
2156 2013-05-05 21:00:00 <amiller_> front or back i don't get it
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2168 2013-05-05 21:28:38 <Julius129> hey guys
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2177 2013-05-05 21:41:59 <eqolo> i heard they hacked Instawallets, what does this to bitcoin?
2178 2013-05-05 21:42:21 <eqolo> what does this do to bitcoin?
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2180 2013-05-05 21:42:34 <redeeman> nothing
2181 2013-05-05 21:42:45 <rdponticelli> eqolo: It clears the environment?
2182 2013-05-05 21:42:54 <rdponticelli> Insecure services are insecure...
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2187 2013-05-05 21:44:36 <sipa> amiller_: the block locator?
2188 2013-05-05 21:44:44 <sipa> amiller_: it's just a list of hashes you know
2189 2013-05-05 21:45:00 <sipa> starting from the tip and the last ten, and then exponentially further ago
2190 2013-05-05 21:45:11 <amiller_> do i get misbehavior demerits if i just give the tip
2191 2013-05-05 21:45:21 <sipa> i don't think so
2192 2013-05-05 21:45:30 <sipa> it's just less robust in the face of reorgs
2193 2013-05-05 21:45:30 <BCB> ;;rated bitboy
2194 2013-05-05 21:45:31 <gribble> You rated user bitboy on Sat Mar 30 17:33:46 2013, giving him a rating of 8, and supplied these additional notes: multiple WF instant transfer for Bitcoin. Always smooth..
2195 2013-05-05 21:45:34 phpwn has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2196 2013-05-05 21:46:25 <amiller_> i don't see how it's any less robust
2197 2013-05-05 21:48:36 <sipa> if you only give the tip, and the peer doesn't have it, he'll start at genesis
2198 2013-05-05 21:49:04 <sipa> the purpose of the block locator is finding the forking point between two peers
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2202 2013-05-05 21:53:20 <sipa> rdponticelli: without txindex, there is no transaction index at all whatsoever; it is able to find non-spent ones without index via a slow detour though
2203 2013-05-05 21:53:41 <Jere_Jones> What happens if I insert a nonstandard transaction into a block that I mine.  Will the network refuse my block?  (Thinking about Gavin's anti-dust pull request)
2204 2013-05-05 21:54:06 <sipa> Jere_Jones: no
2205 2013-05-05 21:54:15 <sipa> the network rules are not affected
2206 2013-05-05 21:54:35 <sipa> it's just a relay policy, it doesn't change validity
2207 2013-05-05 21:54:58 <Jere_Jones> As the block transits the network, won't the nodes need to request the transaction in order to verify the block?  How can they get the transaction if the network won't relay it?
2208 2013-05-05 21:55:11 <sipa> the block contains the transactions
2209 2013-05-05 21:55:17 <sipa> and the block is relayed
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2211 2013-05-05 21:55:29 <Jere_Jones> Ok.  Thanks.
2212 2013-05-05 21:55:30 <sipa> the anti-dust is about relaying unconfirmed transactions
2213 2013-05-05 21:55:37 <Jere_Jones> Right.
2214 2013-05-05 21:55:57 <Jere_Jones> Same thing with large no-fee transactions, right?
2215 2013-05-05 21:56:01 <sipa> yes
2216 2013-05-05 21:56:30 <Jere_Jones> They don't get relayed, but if they're in a block then they're in a block and "accepted" unless another fork winds.
2217 2013-05-05 21:56:43 <Jere_Jones> *wins
2218 2013-05-05 21:56:51 <sipa> the only thing block validity rules are about, is things like valid signatures, no double spends, no inflation beyond the allowed maximum,
2219 2013-05-05 21:56:59 tombar has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2220 2013-05-05 21:57:14 <sipa> oh, and block sizes and sigop limits per block
2221 2013-05-05 21:57:27 <Jere_Jones> sigop limits?
2222 2013-05-05 21:57:28 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
2223 2013-05-05 21:57:38 <sipa> 20000 signature check operations per block max
2224 2013-05-05 21:57:39 ralphthe1inja is now known as ralphtheninja
2225 2013-05-05 21:58:36 <Jere_Jones> Interesting.  So a complicated transaction could tie up a larger portion of the block than its byte size would imply.
2226 2013-05-05 21:58:55 <sipa> (given that the average signature takes 72 bytes, it'd be very hard to exceed)
2227 2013-05-05 21:59:24 <Jere_Jones> Ah
2228 2013-05-05 21:59:27 <Jere_Jones> Thanks!
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2265 2013-05-05 22:35:06 <cjd> ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : nonstandard transaction type  <-- anyone know where all of these are coming from?
2266 2013-05-05 22:35:11 <cjd> I see quite a few
2267 2013-05-05 22:35:35 resinate has joined
2268 2013-05-05 22:36:32 <cjd> I'm guessing they're not as common as they appear if my client doesn't accept them into it's mempool
2269 2013-05-05 22:36:37 <cjd> so I see dupes
2270 2013-05-05 22:37:16 <sipa> what code are you running?
2271 2013-05-05 22:37:47 <cjd> git head as of last night
2272 2013-05-05 22:38:03 <sipa> maybe that's the new dust preventing policy kicking in
2273 2013-05-05 22:38:20 <cjd> ahh cool +1 for anti-dust-spam
2274 2013-05-05 22:38:48 <sipa> yeah, it's implemented as an IsStandard rule, so that's what you'd expect to see
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2276 2013-05-05 22:39:14 <cjd> How is syncing with the new ECC code? Does the speed improvement translate to sync speed?
2277 2013-05-05 22:39:28 jaequery has joined
2278 2013-05-05 22:40:04 <sipa> after the last checkpoint, yes
2279 2013-05-05 22:40:28 <sipa> on my laptop my CPU can keep up without about 3.5 MiB/s of blockchain data
2280 2013-05-05 22:40:35 <sipa> *with
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2283 2013-05-05 22:41:20 <sipa> i should try the same on OpenSSL to compare, but I expect it's less than 1 MiB/s
2284 2013-05-05 22:42:22 <cjd> awesome
2285 2013-05-05 22:42:40 oru has joined
2286 2013-05-05 22:42:59 <sipa> the network code is certainly a larger bottleneck
2287 2013-05-05 22:43:10 <sipa> as it's not good at selecting good peers to fetch from etc
2288 2013-05-05 22:43:10 <cjd> I synced from bootstrap.dat and noticed it really monopolizing resources on my laptop over around block 150k
2289 2013-05-05 22:43:22 <sipa> try with a larger -dbcache
2290 2013-05-05 22:43:59 <cjd> well.. it works for what I need now... My next project is going to be validating bootstrap.dat manually fast
2291 2013-05-05 22:44:29 <cjd> I gather it now uses a hashmap of unspent outputs, correct?
2292 2013-05-05 22:45:16 <sipa> eh, it's a leveldb database with several layers of caches on top
2293 2013-05-05 22:45:37 <sipa> the last one being an std::map (so a red-black treemap)
2294 2013-05-05 22:45:51 <sipa> with unpacked utxo data
2295 2013-05-05 22:45:51 <cjd> nice
2296 2013-05-05 22:46:11 <cjd> Now I vaguely recall the leveldb discussion
2297 2013-05-05 22:46:27 <cjd> May  5 06:56:26 vps named[18854]: client 2001:1af8:2100:1::10#64532: query (cache) 'dNsseeD.BitcOin.dashJr.OrG/A/IN' denied
2298 2013-05-05 22:46:48 <cjd> someone trying to use my friend as a DNS amp
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2307 2013-05-05 23:00:58 <skinnkavaj> so with gavins new pull request, we no longer have satoshis?
2308 2013-05-05 23:01:15 <cjd> link?
2309 2013-05-05 23:01:17 skeledrew1 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2311 2013-05-05 23:01:30 <cjd> They're taking the penny out of circulation?! teh outrage
2312 2013-05-05 23:01:37 <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2577
2313 2013-05-05 23:01:48 <jgarzik> skinnkavaj: don't be silly...
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2315 2013-05-05 23:02:04 <cjd> yeah, no risk
2316 2013-05-05 23:02:14 <cjd> colored coins are still trivial to implement
2317 2013-05-05 23:02:47 mappum has joined
2318 2013-05-05 23:02:49 <skinnkavaj> the bible (bitcoin.pdf) is even broken with this new pull
2319 2013-05-05 23:03:08 jciri has joined
2320 2013-05-05 23:03:09 <skinnkavaj> bitcoin should support microtransactions
2321 2013-05-05 23:04:42 jciri has quit (Client Quit)
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2323 2013-05-05 23:04:50 <cjd> microtransactions don't make sense if you need more fee then the amount you're paying
2324 2013-05-05 23:05:01 rox0r has joined
2325 2013-05-05 23:05:19 <cjd> like a dollar paypal donation where they take 30 cents to process... why?
2326 2013-05-05 23:05:21 skeledrew has joined
2327 2013-05-05 23:05:40 <sipa> paypal defines a micropayment as less than $12 :p
2328 2013-05-05 23:05:51 <sipa> i think we can keep supporting that for a while
2329 2013-05-05 23:05:56 <cjd> xD
2330 2013-05-05 23:07:15 <cjd> I am super excited though about the possibilities for community and equity backed currencies using colored coins, it's just that noone has written a sane colored coin impl
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2333 2013-05-05 23:07:51 <Julius129> system should adapt to the availibility of coins, i mean 5700 satoshis is going to be worth alot more one day
2334 2013-05-05 23:07:59 <sipa> it does
2335 2013-05-05 23:08:28 <skinnkavaj> the worst part is they set it to the current price, which has risen before with 10 times in no matter of time
2336 2013-05-05 23:08:31 <sipa> the formula is not fixed, it's based on the size of transactions and the relay fee setting
2337 2013-05-05 23:08:38 <sipa> and the relay fee is settable
2338 2013-05-05 23:08:52 <sipa> the pull request just lists the current effects
2339 2013-05-05 23:09:21 rox0r has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2342 2013-05-05 23:12:14 <Julius129> im on the testnet, it synced completely
2343 2013-05-05 23:12:27 <Julius129> now its syncing again with 33000 blocks left...
2344 2013-05-05 23:12:36 <Julius129> is there any reason for that
2345 2013-05-05 23:12:46 <sipa> yes, it probably just didn't know before
2346 2013-05-05 23:13:01 duckybsd has joined
2347 2013-05-05 23:13:07 <sipa> there is no difference between 'syncing' and 'not syncing'... it's always downloading whatever blocks it finds
2348 2013-05-05 23:13:16 <sipa> and its guess is based on what other peers say
2349 2013-05-05 23:13:19 <Julius129> well i got all of them
2350 2013-05-05 23:13:26 <sipa> how do you know?
2351 2013-05-05 23:13:26 <Julius129> and then the wallet was in sync
2352 2013-05-05 23:13:33 <Julius129> it was upto date
2353 2013-05-05 23:13:35 <sipa> how do you know?
2354 2013-05-05 23:14:10 <cjd> All you guys probably know this but I find it amusing: 00000000000000000ae2dba9951e28a3e6308ac7e9e8536104c503aa772c848f is the lowest hash ever found. At 70 bits it's 590,295,810,358,705,651,712 guesses to have 50% chance of finding it.
2355 2013-05-05 23:14:25 <felixweis> as far i understand the "dust" definition is linked to the min txfee, if the txfee gets lowered as bitcoin/$ rises, then you will eventually be able to send 1 satoshi again
2356 2013-05-05 23:14:29 <Julius129> no blocks left to download, date time was recent, and theres no way 33000 new blocks can appear so quickly
2357 2013-05-05 23:14:44 <sipa> Jere_Jones: hmmm
2358 2013-05-05 23:15:28 <Jere_Jones> sipa: ?
2359 2013-05-05 23:15:34 <sipa> eh
2360 2013-05-05 23:15:37 <sipa> Julius129: hmmm
2361 2013-05-05 23:15:46 <Julius129> so im wondering if the testnet client just tries to download everything repeatedly
2362 2013-05-05 23:15:47 <Jere_Jones> Tab strikes again :)
2363 2013-05-05 23:15:51 <sipa> cjd: and the total work in the chain is 2^69.95151 hashes :)
2364 2013-05-05 23:15:52 <Julius129> for "testing"
2365 2013-05-05 23:16:04 <sipa> Julius129: it doesn't
2366 2013-05-05 23:16:15 <sipa> but the number of blocks left is based on what peers say
2367 2013-05-05 23:16:19 <sipa> which cannot be verified
2368 2013-05-05 23:16:25 <sipa> if they lie, the number shown can be weird
2369 2013-05-05 23:16:44 Casimir1904 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2370 2013-05-05 23:17:03 <cjd> sipa: interesting, so total work ever is less than 70 bits and that hash is effectively about 69 (if I'm not mistaken)
2371 2013-05-05 23:17:34 <gmaxwell> cjd: thats just as expected.
2372 2013-05-05 23:18:04 <cjd> Ok that makes some sense
2373 2013-05-05 23:18:15 <skinnkavaj> sipa: i think this is very valid points against that pull:
2374 2013-05-05 23:18:16 <skinnkavaj> *1. One guy is deciding stuff. Backed by thedev group; not very decentralized.
2375 2013-05-05 23:18:18 <skinnkavaj> *2. No alternatives to resist this.
2376 2013-05-05 23:18:20 <skinnkavaj> *3. Bitcoin no longer equals 100mil satoshis! only 00000 !!!
2377 2013-05-05 23:18:23 <skinnkavaj> *4. Goes against the ideology of the original paper by Satoshi which clearly states that btc is created for small transactions.
2378 2013-05-05 23:18:25 <skinnkavaj> *5. I believe value of btc will rise. at 184+ you wont be able to pay in pennies. At 1842+ not in tens ofpennies. At 18416+ not in dollars. [I believe btc can rise upto this value]
2379 2013-05-05 23:18:27 <skinnkavaj> *6. The sum of 54.3uBTC was chosen based on 'current value in dollars' it seems. Disappointing! Why are we comparing to fiat? We aim to move away from it.
2380 2013-05-05 23:18:54 <sipa> skinnkavaj: 6 is not true, it's based on the fee policy cost to spend them
2381 2013-05-05 23:19:27 <sipa> 1) you don't have to agree with it; you can set your relay fee different
2382 2013-05-05 23:19:39 keystrike has joined
2383 2013-05-05 23:19:58 <sipa> and the reason is to keep the network useful for all
2384 2013-05-05 23:20:27 <sipa> there's no point in creating outputs that cost more to spend than they are worth - those will just never be spent, and that's pure ever bloat
2385 2013-05-05 23:20:27 Casimir1904 has joined
2386 2013-05-05 23:20:51 felixweis has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2387 2013-05-05 23:21:15 <skinnkavaj> "It shouldn't be on by default, it should be off by default like it is in the white papers. Instead of being here, maybe actually try and figure out the blockchain size problem correctly, without censorship."
2388 2013-05-05 23:21:24 <rdponticelli> Devs are just proposing sane defaults, you can set the parameters to whatever you sees fit...
2389 2013-05-05 23:21:34 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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2391 2013-05-05 23:21:56 <cjd> skinnkavaj: censorship cuts both ways, it is just as much censorship to drown out my voice in a sea of nonsense as it is to suppress it.
2392 2013-05-05 23:22:21 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2393 2013-05-05 23:22:47 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: those points were refuted in the thread you're pasting from, you should read further.
2394 2013-05-05 23:22:51 <wallet43> sipa, are the block spam the problem or the bloatet UTXO set?
2395 2013-05-05 23:23:40 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: i'm posting it here because i want someone else opinions than yours, many high count posters disagree with this change from what i can see
2396 2013-05-05 23:23:44 <takeyourhatoff> gmaxwell: am I able to change my username on bitcointalk.org?
2397 2013-05-05 23:23:47 skeledrew has joined
2398 2013-05-05 23:24:21 keystrike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2399 2013-05-05 23:24:41 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: ah so you're "gweedo
2400 2013-05-05 23:24:43 <gmaxwell> "?
2401 2013-05-05 23:24:57 <gmaxwell> You really need to go modify your posts to not make incorrect claims. :(
2402 2013-05-05 23:24:58 canoon has joined
2403 2013-05-05 23:25:40 <skinnkavaj> i'm not even mike hearn tells us this is a temporary change, and a temporary change is just BAD.. try figure out the REAL problem right away
2404 2013-05-05 23:25:40 <cjd> skinnkavaj: We (other developers and I) do have disagreements about where the line lies between use and abuse but nobody I know has a use case which is broken by this particular patch.
2405 2013-05-05 23:25:45 quaz0r has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2406 2013-05-05 23:26:09 <gmaxwell> takeyourhatoff: I dunno. Sorry I haven't followed up with you. Try asking theymos.
2407 2013-05-05 23:26:15 <takeyourhatoff> ok, thanks
2408 2013-05-05 23:26:20 <jaakkos> imo it appears that this pull is too controversial atm, to be merged so soon. you should give it more time - people should have their time to think about it and express opinions.
2409 2013-05-05 23:26:20 <takeyourhatoff> sorry for pestering you here for it
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2414 2013-05-05 23:26:59 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: if we were to remove it we probably also need to back out the one lowering minfee. :(
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2416 2013-05-05 23:27:47 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: but it's hard to tell, most of the people complaining on the forum are either brand new probably sock accounts or people with bright yellow ignore indicators. So far I've yet to see a coherent "this is what it will break".
2417 2013-05-05 23:28:42 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: but if its such a controverisal change, it needs to be further discussed... no need to rush things
2418 2013-05-05 23:28:58 <wallet43> whats the real problem with "dust"?
2419 2013-05-05 23:29:07 <wallet43> too big UTXO set?
2420 2013-05-05 23:29:16 <cjd> severe DoS risk AFAICT
2421 2013-05-05 23:29:26 <skinnkavaj> it's not like bitcoin is going to break over waiting with this for 1-2 months
2422 2013-05-05 23:29:32 <skinnkavaj> why are you rushing it?
2423 2013-05-05 23:29:58 <sipa> it adds no usefulness to the system (especially since most dust isn't ever spent anyway), while significantly burdening it for everyone
2424 2013-05-05 23:30:22 <cjd> It's actually not that controvercial, if you can find someone to mine your teenyspends then you can still get them included and they're still accepted, isStandard() just discourages them from being relayed to the miners
2425 2013-05-05 23:30:51 Guest40649 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2426 2013-05-05 23:31:01 <sipa> indeed, no block validity rules are touched (and i seriously object to that if it was proposed)
2427 2013-05-05 23:31:02 <kaptah> I need to upgrade my harddrive soon if Im to keep running full node >_<
2428 2013-05-05 23:31:09 <kaptah> reason enough
2429 2013-05-05 23:31:32 <sipa> kaptah: if that's the case, you're likely better off using a lightweight clietn :)
2430 2013-05-05 23:31:32 <takeyourhatoff> why does github think bitcoin is mostly typescript?
2431 2013-05-05 23:31:32 <cjd> Taken another way, by upgrading bitcoind I am refusing to relay your teensey spends because they are not worth me donating my bandwidth.
2432 2013-05-05 23:31:52 <sipa> takeyourhatoff: i have no clue!
2433 2013-05-05 23:31:55 <wallet43> so the use of timestamping with bitcoin is unwanted?
2434 2013-05-05 23:32:06 <kaptah> sipa: possibly. at the moment there's no lightweight armory version :<
2435 2013-05-05 23:32:25 <sipa> wallet43: timestamping with bitcoin can be done with O(1) costs to the chain
2436 2013-05-05 23:32:30 <sipa> (see chronobit)
2437 2013-05-05 23:33:13 ReadMe is now known as MobiusL
2438 2013-05-05 23:33:18 <cjd> I'm in favor of transactions which are provably unspendable thus trivially prunable
2439 2013-05-05 23:33:26 <wallet43> aah is that the unable to decode output on blockchain.info?
2440 2013-05-05 23:33:34 <sipa> wallet43: unlikely
2441 2013-05-05 23:33:36 <cjd> but I would not be so stingey as to pay 1 satoshi
2442 2013-05-05 23:34:17 <gmaxwell> Yea, I'd object to changing block validity rules like this.. so would basically everyone. No one is even proposing that.
2443 2013-05-05 23:34:18 <skinnkavaj> This is about changing the fundamentals of bitcoin. Transactions should not be limited..... PERIOD. This goes against everything bitcoin has said it stood for.
2444 2013-05-05 23:34:34 <jaakkos> gmaxwell: hmm. is there a reason why these are not 2 different patches?
2445 2013-05-05 23:34:59 <sipa> gmaxwell, jgarzik: if you're interested, my 'secp256k1' branch of bitcoin now works without openssl/ec
2446 2013-05-05 23:35:36 OGK has joined
2447 2013-05-05 23:36:00 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: uh. They are two different patches, you misunderstand. We already have problems with people stuffing megabytes of garbage into the chain. Making it 5x less expensive to do so isn't really acceptable without also doing something that increases the cost of the coercisive data storage.
2448 2013-05-05 23:36:08 <gmaxwell> sipa: \O/
2449 2013-05-05 23:36:08 <cjd> skinnkavaj: been there, it's not changing validity rules, just relay rules
2450 2013-05-05 23:36:37 <OGK> Hi just walked in here.
2451 2013-05-05 23:36:38 <cjd> You have a right to make any transaction you want, and I have a right to ignore you :)
2452 2013-05-05 23:36:39 <wallet43> skinnkavaj, the patch discurages creation of outputs that are highly unlikly to be spend
2453 2013-05-05 23:37:05 <gmaxwell> coercive*
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2455 2013-05-05 23:37:11 <skinnkavaj> wallet43: but its based on the current price, seriously.. wtf?
2456 2013-05-05 23:37:16 <OGK> My opinion is that each node operator should be able to set its own relay policy
2457 2013-05-05 23:37:17 <sipa> skinnkavaj: IT IS NOT
2458 2013-05-05 23:37:17 <takeyourhatoff> gmaxwell: would reducing the amount in every output by 1 satoshi or something every re ajust ever considered?
2459 2013-05-05 23:37:25 <wallet43> skinnkavaj NO no $$ included
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2462 2013-05-05 23:37:53 <sipa> skinnkavaj: there is a formula, which determines a minimal cost to spend the output according to the current fee policy
2463 2013-05-05 23:37:59 <OGK> Obviously in the end-game nodes simply won't be able to relay every transaction, but the user of the node should decide his own relay policy. Configurable in software, I mean.
2464 2013-05-05 23:38:06 <jaakkos> OGK: well, they do... but it would be nice to have a consensus on rules so that users know what kind of transactions they need to construct to make sure they really propagate, right?
2465 2013-05-05 23:38:08 <wallet43> its based on the cacluclation of you need more than 1/3 the value to pay as TXfee on average to spend the money
2466 2013-05-05 23:38:09 <cjd> +    // If you'd pay more than 1/3 in fees
2467 2013-05-05 23:38:10 <cjd> +    // to spend something, then we consider it dust.
2468 2013-05-05 23:38:14 <sipa> skinnkavaj: when that minimal cost is more than 1/3 of the value of the output, it is considered dust
2469 2013-05-05 23:38:17 <cjd> looks like that's the algo
2470 2013-05-05 23:38:30 <wallet43> first :P
2471 2013-05-05 23:38:40 <sipa> skinnkavaj: the fee policy will change in the future (and you can tweak it with a config setting too)
2472 2013-05-05 23:38:48 <sipa> which will change whatever is considered dust
2473 2013-05-05 23:38:52 <OGK> I'm actually considering if there's a way to extend the protocol
2474 2013-05-05 23:38:57 <sipa> so no, the price is not involved here at all
2475 2013-05-05 23:39:04 <wallet43> as the mintxfee lowers, so lowers the definition of "dust"
2476 2013-05-05 23:39:14 <takeyourhatoff> cjd: why would it be dust, if i had a thousand dollars worth of "dust" I would still rather spend it and pay $300 in fees than it disappear.
2477 2013-05-05 23:39:20 <OGK> so that the would-be recipient of the transaction can toss money at the blockchain to process the transaction.
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2480 2013-05-05 23:39:36 <OGK> as an addition to the "sender decides transaction fee"
2481 2013-05-05 23:39:39 <sipa> takeyourhatoff: better avoid creating the dust in the first place, no?
2482 2013-05-05 23:39:59 <wallet43> existing dust can still be spent
2483 2013-05-05 23:40:00 <cjd> takeyourhatoff: the spender of the dust doesn't have to pay, actually people paying you tiny amounts to mess up your wallet is the attack we're working on here
2484 2013-05-05 23:40:06 <wallet43> no coins are lost
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2486 2013-05-05 23:40:08 <takeyourhatoff> sipa: today's dust may be tomorrows nuggets
2487 2013-05-05 23:40:09 xdrake is now known as chorao
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2494 2013-05-05 23:40:37 <cjd> takeyourhatoff: if it's dust today, it's unaffected
2495 2013-05-05 23:40:42 <wallet43> takeyourhatoff, if the mintxfee is lowered, so is the definitioin of dust
2496 2013-05-05 23:40:50 <takeyourhatoff> cjd: oh, so txn without enough fees are rejected?
2497 2013-05-05 23:41:09 <wallet43> takeyourhatoff, depends on the miner
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2499 2013-05-05 23:41:19 <skinnkavaj> i fail to see how this scales with the price sipa
2500 2013-05-05 23:41:23 <OGK> like, if I have mucho moolah coming to me, but no miner will process it because there's no incentive for them to.
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2505 2013-05-05 23:41:34 <OGK> I should be able to say "this transaction, I will give X BTC if you will process it."
2506 2013-05-05 23:41:40 <OGK> enabled by the protocol.
2507 2013-05-05 23:41:44 <sipa> skinnkavaj: it delegates the problem to the relay fee policy, which already exists
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2509 2013-05-05 23:41:49 <takeyourhatoff> what if i have a wallet with a load of low value outputs, and the network at a later date decides it is dust
2510 2013-05-05 23:41:53 serp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2511 2013-05-05 23:41:53 <sipa> skinnkavaj: and which will need to adapt to prices
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2517 2013-05-05 23:42:19 <wallet43> skinnkavaj, if the price gets higher, some miners will LOWER the txfee to get MORE txs (that would considered dust today)
2518 2013-05-05 23:42:32 <cjd> were the upload-crap-into-the-blockchain outputs dust?
2519 2013-05-05 23:42:49 <cjd> aka the guy who stored wikileaks and stuff
2520 2013-05-05 23:42:55 deego has joined
2521 2013-05-05 23:43:02 <sipa> no idea
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2523 2013-05-05 23:43:08 <takeyourhatoff> say i send a transaction with no fee, and it never gets included into the block chain, how long are clients going to remember my transaction?
2524 2013-05-05 23:43:10 <skinnkavaj> cjd: he paid like 5 btc in fees
2525 2013-05-05 23:43:25 <OGK> does anybody think my proposal has merit? or is technically feasible?
2526 2013-05-05 23:43:26 dparrish has joined
2527 2013-05-05 23:43:38 kaptah has joined
2528 2013-05-05 23:43:40 <sipa> OGK: that's the fee?
2529 2013-05-05 23:43:49 <cjd> skinnkavaj: yeah but if the payments were dust then it would be more expensive because he would have to pay another 5 or 10 BTC to the outputs
2530 2013-05-05 23:43:49 <sipa> what goes to the miner if he includes it
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2533 2013-05-05 23:44:01 <OGK> Right, but the RECIPIENT basically attaches funding to a transaction that had insufficient fee.
2534 2013-05-05 23:44:12 serp has joined
2535 2013-05-05 23:44:19 <OGK> so that there is incentive to process it where there was none before
2536 2013-05-05 23:44:23 <OGK> and the recipient can receive his funds.
2537 2013-05-05 23:44:27 <sipa> OGK: that will be possible with child-pays-for-parent
2538 2013-05-05 23:44:28 <jaakkos> OGK: related to that, someone earlier suggested that the sender of an unconfirmed tx should be able to propagate a double spend that overrides the original, as long as the double spend only increases the tx's fee
2539 2013-05-05 23:44:31 <cjd> OGK: there have been some merchant-pays-the-fee proposals before
2540 2013-05-05 23:44:36 scripting has joined
2541 2013-05-05 23:44:39 <sipa> OGK: but that's actually a very hard thing to do right, technically
2542 2013-05-05 23:45:04 paracyst has joined
2543 2013-05-05 23:45:05 <OGK> yeah, it has to be an entirely separate data structure from a regular transaction.
2544 2013-05-05 23:45:10 <cjd> better if the merchant and customer make an agreement seperately from bitcoin so the fee is determined
2545 2013-05-05 23:45:12 <takeyourhatoff> OGK: with merchant pays the fee, does that acctually mean anybody can pay the fee
2546 2013-05-05 23:45:28 Nothing4You has joined
2547 2013-05-05 23:45:29 <sipa> OGK: child-pays-for-parent is using just normal transactions
2548 2013-05-05 23:45:39 coderrr has joined
2549 2013-05-05 23:45:42 <sipa> OGK: it means the recipient can turn part of the output back into fee
2550 2013-05-05 23:45:48 <OGK> Ah, yes!
2551 2013-05-05 23:45:55 <OGK> that is exactly what I am thinking of
2552 2013-05-05 23:45:59 <OGK> but how do miners understand?
2553 2013-05-05 23:46:06 <takeyourhatoff> what happens to transactions nodes recive before they are included into a block?
2554 2013-05-05 23:46:19 <OGK> is there a paper?
2555 2013-05-05 23:46:27 <wallet43> skinnkavaj: why would you create an output of 5000 satoshis if you need to pay 50000 satoshis in fees to spend it?
2556 2013-05-05 23:46:27 <jaakkos> takeyourhatoff: they are stored in nodes' memory buffer
2557 2013-05-05 23:46:34 <takeyourhatoff> jaakkos: how long for?
2558 2013-05-05 23:46:52 <jaakkos> takeyourhatoff: until the client is restarted
2559 2013-05-05 23:47:08 <takeyourhatoff> jaakkos: what about in low memory situations
2560 2013-05-05 23:47:19 <jaakkos> the real devs can probably answer that
2561 2013-05-05 23:47:39 <skinnkavaj> wallet43: you have to think about scalability, we don't even know how much a bitcoin could be worth in the future.. the fees will probably be less in satoshis
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2564 2013-05-05 23:48:10 <OGK> The "real problem" I think is how a you can send off a transaction with insufficient fee
2565 2013-05-05 23:48:16 <OGK> that may, as miners wisen up
2566 2013-05-05 23:48:19 <OGK> never be processed.
2567 2013-05-05 23:48:25 <takeyourhatoff> what about if you spammed so many 1 satoshi transactions (that had enough fee to be rebroadcast) that they could not all get included in the block due to the block size limit, what prevents crashing loads of the network due to out of memory errors
2568 2013-05-05 23:48:30 <wallet43> skinnkavaj: the "dust" definitioin is tied to the fee, if the fees will be lower in the future, you will be able to create smaller outputs
2569 2013-05-05 23:48:52 <OGK> Perhaps we could say in meta-data
2570 2013-05-05 23:48:59 <OGK> "this transaction is void after block XXX"
2571 2013-05-05 23:49:10 <OGK> like a check might say "Void after 90 days"
2572 2013-05-05 23:49:52 <OGK> so the btc isn't "in limbo"
2573 2013-05-05 23:50:05 johnsoft has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2574 2013-05-05 23:50:50 <sipa> skinnkavaj: assuming the blockchain limit remains, if the value of bitcoin goes up, that likely means that the average transaction value goes up as well, and there will be less place of smaller transactions too
2575 2013-05-05 23:50:52 <OGK> as far as microspends messing up wallets, I think that's more of a "user-interface" issue than anything.
2576 2013-05-05 23:50:54 <sipa> skinnkavaj: so it works both ways
2577 2013-05-05 23:52:01 chorao has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2578 2013-05-05 23:52:18 <OGK> s/b unrelated to relay policy except when a node's ability to relay all transactions is threatend.
2579 2013-05-05 23:52:24 <skinnkavaj> sipa: satoshi clearly stated bitcoin was going to be used for micropayments, but gavin and all you others are stated that bitcoin should not support that.. and now you are actually about to change that
2580 2013-05-05 23:52:31 <skinnkavaj> how about trying to solve the original problem instead
2581 2013-05-05 23:52:37 <sipa> skinnkavaj: which is?
2582 2013-05-05 23:52:38 <skinnkavaj> there is no need to rush this change
2583 2013-05-05 23:52:53 <skinnkavaj> sipa: blockchain size
2584 2013-05-05 23:53:29 <sipa> how would you solve it?
2585 2013-05-05 23:53:38 <deego> skinnkavaj: Just joining in, but if btc itself can't support micropayments, can't derivative micropayment services emerge on top of the bitcoin protocol?
2586 2013-05-05 23:53:40 Arnavion has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2587 2013-05-05 23:53:45 <sipa> of course
2588 2013-05-05 23:53:52 <sipa> deego: ^
2589 2013-05-05 23:54:00 DaQatz has joined
2590 2013-05-05 23:54:03 <OGK> in the future deego something like that is inevitable.
2591 2013-05-05 23:54:05 <deego> say, some company moving payments within its accounts..
2592 2013-05-05 23:54:08 <OGK> there must be SOME blockchain limit
2593 2013-05-05 23:54:21 <OGK> and eventually the transactions will hit that limit.
2594 2013-05-05 23:54:24 <skinnkavaj> deego: satoshi clearly stated that bitcoin SHOULD support micropayments, and then we should work for it do actually be able to do just that
2595 2013-05-05 23:54:27 bitbiter has joined
2596 2013-05-05 23:54:29 <OGK> Which means it has to be bundled.
2597 2013-05-05 23:54:33 <skinnkavaj> not rush a change like this
2598 2013-05-05 23:54:38 <sipa> skinnkavaj: then come up with constructive solutions
2599 2013-05-05 23:54:47 <gmaxwell> deego: yup.  Also there is ambiguity in what micropayments means. Most people mean value under a dollar or so.  Some people seem to be thinking that payments at 1/1000th of a dollar are "micropayments" ... techincally the design of bitcoin just isn't good for that kind of thing.
2600 2013-05-05 23:54:54 <deego> skinnkavaj: (sorry, i missed.) What change is being made?
2601 2013-05-05 23:55:07 <sipa> OGK: and microcoins in wallets are a real problem, not just a user interface problem
2602 2013-05-05 23:55:15 <skinnkavaj> sipa: i have no solution right now, else i would have already posted it.. but i think it can be solved in a better way like this, there are many new developers joining every day
2603 2013-05-05 23:55:29 <OGK> sipa: care to elaborate?
2604 2013-05-05 23:55:36 <skinnkavaj> deego: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=196138.0
2605 2013-05-05 23:55:44 <skinnkavaj> this is what i'm refering to ^
2606 2013-05-05 23:55:45 <jaakkos> takeyourhatoff: hmm. 2^32 / 500 * 0.0005 BTC makes around 4295 BTC, which would fill 4 gigabytes of memory with 500 B transactions
2607 2013-05-05 23:55:50 <sipa> skinnkavaj: and there is the fundamental problem, that the blockchain is a balance in functionality between those creating transactions, and scalability between those verifying them
2608 2013-05-05 23:56:06 <sipa> skinnkavaj: where this balance ends up depends entirely on how people will use the system
2609 2013-05-05 23:56:09 <deego> gmaxwell: Indeed (re ambiguity)
2610 2013-05-05 23:56:12 <OGK> sipa: this balance is achieved by a free market mechanism.
2611 2013-05-05 23:56:22 <deego> skinnkavaj:  ah, thanks.
2612 2013-05-05 23:56:27 <OGK> Except the hard limit that is the blockchain
2613 2013-05-05 23:56:51 <sipa> both extremes are clearly uninteresting... one is where every transaction ends up on the chain, but barely anyone can validate it (that's pretty much the monetrary system that exists)
2614 2013-05-05 23:56:55 <OGK> err...the block size limit
2615 2013-05-05 23:57:04 <takeyourhatoff> jaakkos: are you saying there is no protection against it apart from the fact that it is kinda expensive to crash the vast majority of clients?
2616 2013-05-05 23:57:05 <Vinnie_win> Seems like dust output limit is the drama du jour
2617 2013-05-05 23:57:17 <OGK> it's the only reason I'm here. ;P
2618 2013-05-05 23:57:29 <sipa> the other extreme is a system where only a few companies are able to create very-high-value transactions, a few per day, but everyone's Ti-89 can validate them
2619 2013-05-05 23:57:38 <takeyourhatoff> jaakkos: a big mining pool could do that and safely assume they are going to get a lot of that money back
2620 2013-05-05 23:57:40 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: i'm pretty sure someone in the future will come up with an idea to solve the blockchain size, this is just madness rushing to change things that satoshi clearly stated in the bitcoin.pdf bitcoin should support
2621 2013-05-05 23:57:48 <jaakkos> takeyourhatoff: it would be interesting to have a comment from one of the devs on that.
2622 2013-05-05 23:58:02 <takeyourhatoff> jaakkos: i might just try it on testnet
2623 2013-05-05 23:58:08 <takeyourhatoff> dont have the coin though
2624 2013-05-05 23:58:13 * Vinnie_win whispers a word in your ear: "Ripple."
2625 2013-05-05 23:58:17 <wallet43> i acutually LIKE the pull request since it removes a hardcoded constant to be choosen by the miner
2626 2013-05-05 23:58:20 <OGK> ultimately, even this is determined by a free market mechanism, although a much more destructive one.
2627 2013-05-05 23:58:25 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: Satoshi himself added code to inhibit very small outputs. Your invoking of satoshi isn't helping your case.
2628 2013-05-05 23:58:30 <OGK> which blockchain limit the majority of nodes recognize
2629 2013-05-05 23:58:55 <sipa> OGK: the blockchain limit is a hard network rule, that means that _every_ node has to agree on it
2630 2013-05-05 23:58:58 <sipa> or you get forks
2631 2013-05-05 23:59:00 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: forget size. Bitcoin is a currency. There are problems with non-currcency transactions right now creating txout set (not just blockchain) bloat.
2632 2013-05-05 23:59:08 funky has joined
2633 2013-05-05 23:59:09 <OGK> sipa: exactly what I was insinuating.
2634 2013-05-05 23:59:21 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: e.g. people inserting childporn links and other crap in unspendable 1e-8 value outputs.
2635 2013-05-05 23:59:34 <gmaxwell> skinnkavaj: and that kind of activity attacks everyone's freedom to use Bitcoin.
2636 2013-05-05 23:59:34 grazs has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2637 2013-05-05 23:59:35 Corndawg has joined
2638 2013-05-05 23:59:41 <funky> ;p;
2639 2013-05-05 23:59:46 <sipa> OGK: then don't use the word 'majority', which implies it's sort of a democracy
2640 2013-05-05 23:59:48 <skinnkavaj> gmaxwell: even after this change people can still insert childporn links
2641 2013-05-05 23:59:52 <funky> gmaxwell:  its like freemod of speech