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89 2013-05-07 02:30:46 <slothbag> Hi all, i'm using nodejs and bitcoinjs-lib to perform a message verify operation and its taking about 15 seconds on an old CPU.. any idea's how much faster it would be if written in C? maybe 5-10 seconds to run?
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97 2013-05-07 02:34:39 <jgarzik> slothbag: a single message? verified in pure C? under a second.
98 2013-05-07 02:35:36 <slothbag> on an old CPU? hmmm, ok I might need to upgrade that part then.. lol
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100 2013-05-07 02:38:57 <slothbag> how much work is involved in writing a small C program that takes a signature as an argument and the message as STDIN and outputs the corresponding bitcoino address? use of openssl lib is ok.. might have to outsource it :)
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109 2013-05-07 02:56:03 <jgarzik> slothbag: easy with picocoin.git's libccoin
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146 2013-05-07 03:44:31 <slothbag> jgarzik: thanks i'll check it out
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153 2013-05-07 03:53:36 <poop_> ð©
154 2013-05-07 03:53:42 <poop_> oops
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156 2013-05-07 03:54:27 <swulf--> if txn A has 0 fees but txn B, using an output from A, has sufficient fees, will miners try to include both A and B in order to get B's fees? Or are miners generally not that smart?
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188 2013-05-07 04:31:11 <IanCormac> I want to get a solid understanding of the entire bitcoind codebase. Where should I start?
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190 2013-05-07 04:31:51 <jgarzik> main.h
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192 2013-05-07 04:32:07 <IanCormac> Fair enough
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194 2013-05-07 04:32:24 <IanCormac> Are there any wiki articles that go over abstracted operation? I was kind of hoping to get something nice to read
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197 2013-05-07 04:33:37 <swulf--> Ian, the source isn't terribly illegible .. great reading material, actually ;)
198 2013-05-07 04:33:57 <swulf--> That is, if you enjoy reading C++
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200 2013-05-07 04:35:28 <IanCormac> Problem is that the codebase is so big I find myself jumping all over the place to find out what some class does
201 2013-05-07 04:35:48 <IanCormac> But I suppose you're right
202 2013-05-07 04:35:51 <swulf--> get an editor that makes it easy to jump around quickly...?
203 2013-05-07 04:35:56 <IanCormac> Any tips?
204 2013-05-07 04:35:58 <gmaxwell> I think the code is perfectly readable... and in systems like this, the details matter greatly. I'd rather have some boring code I skip over (and then can remember and go back to) then a lies for children overview.
205 2013-05-07 04:36:13 <gmaxwell> IanCormac: two terminal windows and grep always worked for me.
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208 2013-05-07 04:36:46 <IanCormac> uphill through the snow both ways? :)
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210 2013-05-07 04:37:22 <IanCormac> Well, better get started
211 2013-05-07 04:37:24 <swulf--> If reading the code isn't the best way to learn the code then I'm not really sure what is:)
212 2013-05-07 04:37:30 <gonffen_> you could try eclipse
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214 2013-05-07 04:37:34 <gmaxwell> :P
215 2013-05-07 04:38:01 <gmaxwell> IanCormac: just prepare yourself to make multiple passes. If you hit some object that you don't understandâ you don't always have to go read it right away.
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218 2013-05-07 04:39:42 <jgarzik> IanCormac: Vizzini says you have to go back to the beginning. http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
219 2013-05-07 04:40:51 <cjd> my subset of C has spoiled me
220 2013-05-07 04:41:17 <cjd> when I see a publically visible function and it's not prefixed with the name of the file where it's defined, I'm immedietly unhappy
221 2013-05-07 04:41:25 <IanCormac> I've read through most of the whitepaper. I think I have a fairly good understanding of the protocol, but just not nearly an accurate enough understanding of the protocol to satisfy me. I've found myself making false assumptions too many times
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223 2013-05-07 04:43:19 <IanCormac> e.g. that OP_CHECKSIG just did ECDSA math
224 2013-05-07 04:43:36 <IanCormac> got schooled on that one
225 2013-05-07 04:43:57 <cjd> bitcoin is complicated
226 2013-05-07 04:44:09 <cjd> every time you think you understand it you find out you don't
227 2013-05-07 04:44:32 <IanCormac> No kidding
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238 2013-05-07 05:01:18 <Julius129> ok i found that crazy node screwing with my client again
239 2013-05-07 05:01:19 andyh2 has joined
240 2013-05-07 05:01:22 <Julius129> going to upload screenshots
241 2013-05-07 05:02:25 <Julius129> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/10/blockcount.png/
242 2013-05-07 05:02:40 <Julius129> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/812/outofsync.png/
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244 2013-05-07 05:04:54 <cjd> ip addr?
245 2013-05-07 05:05:59 <gmaxwell> I'd repeat what I told you before and tell you that its harmless and cosmetic and doesn't do anything. But seeing how much it bugs you I might as well figure out how to avoid it being possible to trigger on the real network.
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247 2013-05-07 05:06:27 <Julius129> receive version message: version 60000, blocks=140700, us=105.224.56.172:18333, them=0.0.0.0:0, peer=75.119.251.161:54650
248 2013-05-07 05:06:51 <cjd> oh yeah
249 2013-05-07 05:06:54 <cjd> I remember that
250 2013-05-07 05:06:55 <Julius129> its been stuck in that state for probably 60 minutes now
251 2013-05-07 05:07:11 <cjd> I was able to make my bitcoin node kind of unhappy that way
252 2013-05-07 05:07:25 <gmaxwell> cjd: lies.
253 2013-05-07 05:07:40 <cjd> well, it was isolated to I could 100% sybil it
254 2013-05-07 05:08:07 <gmaxwell> cjd: the blockcount is cosmetic it doesn't actually do anything to it.
255 2013-05-07 05:08:15 <cjd> yeah
256 2013-05-07 05:08:40 <gmaxwell> Julius129: can you open the console and getpeerinfo and see how many of your current peers are reporting >=140700 ?
257 2013-05-07 05:08:51 <Julius129> ok
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260 2013-05-07 05:10:11 <Julius129> none, ive restarted my client, so all is normal again
261 2013-05-07 05:10:33 <gmaxwell> okay, well if it does it againâ go run that and see whats there.
262 2013-05-07 05:11:14 <cjd> could demand that block then if they don't respond DoS them and reset
263 2013-05-07 05:11:27 <cjd> only cosmetic but warm and fuzzy is king
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265 2013-05-07 05:11:50 <gmaxwell> cjd: you cannot requests blocks by height
266 2013-05-07 05:12:00 <cjd> oh right :|
267 2013-05-07 05:12:16 <cjd> well if you're synced you could just ask for blocks
268 2013-05-07 05:12:17 <Julius129> if you guys say it wont affect the transactions, then i wont worry
269 2013-05-07 05:12:28 <gmaxwell> It won't affect the transactions.
270 2013-05-07 05:12:41 <gmaxwell> cjd: it uses a median for it in any case, so it shouldn't generally be possible for someone to goof you up without having a majority of your connections.
271 2013-05-07 05:12:47 <Julius129> but the out of sync status made me think my ISP or something blocked my client off
272 2013-05-07 05:13:22 <gmaxwell> I suspect that what it is is some stupid altcoin which didn't change the protocol id or something similarly stupid, and testnet nodes are actually getting half their connections to it or something like that.
273 2013-05-07 05:14:33 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: if you want a laugh: Feathercoin changed the magic bytes, but used Litecoin's genesis block as-is..
274 2013-05-07 05:14:56 <cjd> :|
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276 2013-05-07 05:15:40 <nsh> weightlesscoin will be perfect, however
277 2013-05-07 05:15:58 <Julius129> anyway before i leave for work, what is the CPU requirements for running a bitcoind with lots of addresses in a wallet? Can i run this on a 800mhz AMD geode or isnt that a good idea?
278 2013-05-07 05:16:23 <cjd> btw nice work on the strict signatures thing
279 2013-05-07 05:16:33 <cjd> lots of grey area cleared up there
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282 2013-05-07 05:17:31 <Arnavion> Luke-Jr: How does feathercoin's blockchain validate, then?
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289 2013-05-07 05:20:22 <jgarzik> wtf is a feathercoin
290 2013-05-07 05:20:36 <sydna> another pump-and-dump altcoin
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292 2013-05-07 05:20:55 <Arnavion> A direct copy of litecoin where they changed literally nothing except the name
293 2013-05-07 05:21:55 <sivu> but hey, how cool is that you have your own currency
294 2013-05-07 05:21:59 <sivu> you get the ladies
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296 2013-05-07 05:22:16 <Julius129> hey sydna
297 2013-05-07 05:22:29 <Julius129> i got that issue again, have screenshots if you want to see
298 2013-05-07 05:22:29 <sydna> Julius129: how'd your misbehaving node go?
299 2013-05-07 05:22:43 <sydna> Julius129: sure, I'm pretty curious about that
300 2013-05-07 05:23:04 <Julius129> we think its some alt coin
301 2013-05-07 05:23:27 <gmaxwell> Arnavion: no no no.. they applied the litecoin winning model.
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303 2013-05-07 05:23:55 <Arnavion> The what?
304 2013-05-07 05:24:02 <gmaxwell> They took litecoin ... and quartered the time between blocks and quadrupled the total number of coins, exactly as ltc does wrt bitcoin.
305 2013-05-07 05:24:07 <Arnavion> Also I see in one commit, they deleted main.cpp, and in the next commit they put it back
306 2013-05-07 05:24:17 <Arnavion> with one line less
307 2013-05-07 05:24:25 <sydna> Julius129: hark. they made a fork and didn't change the ports?
308 2013-05-07 05:24:52 <Julius129> maybe...
309 2013-05-07 05:25:04 <Julius129> maybe its ChickenCoin or CowCoin
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312 2013-05-07 05:26:09 <sydna> BitBar was the most recent fork I think
313 2013-05-07 05:26:32 * cjd takes bitcoind, hardcodes it into testnet mode and changes the name :D
314 2013-05-07 05:26:49 <IanCormac> I'm rich!
315 2013-05-07 05:26:57 <cjd> xD
316 2013-05-07 05:27:04 <IanCormac> In antimattercoins
317 2013-05-07 05:27:19 <IanCormac> That's even better than weightlesscoin, right?
318 2013-05-07 05:27:23 <sydna> QuarkCoin. you never know if the balance is up or down.
319 2013-05-07 05:27:48 <lianj> so much good ideas
320 2013-05-07 05:27:54 <cjd> ShrodengersCoin you may or may not have been paid, never know until you spend it
321 2013-05-07 05:27:58 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
322 2013-05-07 05:28:04 Luke-Jr has quit (Excess Flood)
323 2013-05-07 05:28:12 <IanCormac> The proof of work system is based on poisoning cats
324 2013-05-07 05:28:21 <sydna> and cesium atoms.
325 2013-05-07 05:28:23 <cjd> xD
326 2013-05-07 05:28:54 Luke-Jr has joined
327 2013-05-07 05:30:04 <Julius129> today i want to get the freebsd port of bitcoin up and running :)
328 2013-05-07 05:30:24 <cjd> ambitious
329 2013-05-07 05:30:44 <IanCormac> Is there not one already?
330 2013-05-07 05:30:46 <cjd> does anyone have fork blocks handy so I can unit test reorg?
331 2013-05-07 05:30:55 <Julius129> there is one
332 2013-05-07 05:31:14 <Julius129> but i am going to attempt to put it on one of my embedded AMD geode boards
333 2013-05-07 05:32:19 <IanCormac> Alright, in my quest to understand the bitcoind code, I'm going through and re-naming every single class into some extremely explicit, lengthy description of what it does
334 2013-05-07 05:32:23 <IanCormac> Let's hope this helps
335 2013-05-07 05:34:23 fanquake has quit (Quit: fanquake)
336 2013-05-07 05:35:32 bitit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
337 2013-05-07 05:36:00 bitit has joined
338 2013-05-07 05:38:31 dawei101 has joined
339 2013-05-07 05:41:43 <lianj> cjd: iirc testnet in a box has a reorg in it
340 2013-05-07 05:44:11 <cjd> cool, I'll take a look
341 2013-05-07 05:44:22 IanCormac has quit (Quit: IanCormac)
342 2013-05-07 05:45:11 <cjd> btw this is my difficulty code
343 2013-05-07 05:45:12 <cjd> https://ezcrypt.it/8r6n#yMMNPOlYrvICyIE1nMWvceLQ
344 2013-05-07 05:45:30 <cjd> doesn't use openssl bignum at all and I fuzz tested it against the satoshi impl
345 2013-05-07 05:45:54 <cjd> like overnight so I'm pretty sure I covered pretty much every possibility
346 2013-05-07 05:46:15 <swulf--> Ian: CTransaction isn't descriptive enough of what it does?
347 2013-05-07 05:48:08 <gmaxwell> cjd: did you test all the obvious boundard cases ±1 too?
348 2013-05-07 05:48:31 <gmaxwell> er, boundary
349 2013-05-07 05:48:33 * petertodd needs to make steamcoin some day, with a 3 month block time so convergence across the atlantic is possible.
350 2013-05-07 05:49:15 <cjd> My test was just to feed it random inputs
351 2013-05-07 05:49:28 <cjd> in a loop
352 2013-05-07 05:50:32 bitit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
353 2013-05-07 05:51:02 <gmaxwell> meh. random testing often has poor coverageâ good because it finds things you wouldn't think of... bad because I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't even hit all the branches in your code.
354 2013-05-07 05:51:03 bitit has joined
355 2013-05-07 05:51:44 <cjd> hmm
356 2013-05-07 05:51:55 bitit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
357 2013-05-07 05:52:06 <cjd> should hit all if statements but as far as the rounding errors, that's hard to tell
358 2013-05-07 05:52:33 Happzz has joined
359 2013-05-07 05:52:48 <Happzz> any reason for the 0.8 client to take forever to launch? (minutes)
360 2013-05-07 05:53:12 <cjd> just after upgrading? probably rescaning the chain
361 2013-05-07 05:53:56 Bjander has joined
362 2013-05-07 05:54:59 <sydna> Happzz: the client validates the blocks on disks on every launch, that takes some time
363 2013-05-07 05:55:17 <Happzz> cjd no
364 2013-05-07 05:55:27 <sydna> Happzz: you can turn down the number of blocks it checks back on using a line in bit coin.conf
365 2013-05-07 05:55:31 <Happzz> sydna that's too long
366 2013-05-07 05:55:51 <Happzz> sydna how
367 2013-05-07 05:56:06 <gmaxwell> Happzz: if it's taking minutes then something is wrong with your computer
368 2013-05-07 05:56:11 <gmaxwell> Happzz: can you post your debug log?
369 2013-05-07 05:56:20 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
370 2013-05-07 05:56:37 Bjander has joined
371 2013-05-07 05:56:40 <gmaxwell> sydna: turning down the validation isn't a great plan for someone that probably has a failing disk or something.
372 2013-05-07 05:57:12 <sydna> true.
373 2013-05-07 05:58:08 <Happzz> gmaxwell of course. is there any private data in it or can i post it publicly?
374 2013-05-07 05:58:13 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
375 2013-05-07 05:58:26 <gmaxwell> Happzz: it will list your IP very likely, and potentially any txid you've made recently.
376 2013-05-07 05:58:29 Bjander has joined
377 2013-05-07 05:58:34 <gmaxwell> otherwise no. no keys or anything like that in it.
378 2013-05-07 05:58:49 <gmaxwell> if you want you could email it to me, gmaxwell@gmail.com
379 2013-05-07 05:58:54 <Happzz> gmaxwell my hardware is as fine as it gets these days
380 2013-05-07 05:59:39 <Happzz> gmaxwell http://pastebin.com/D2mvFy5t
381 2013-05-07 05:59:56 <Happzz> gmaxwell it continues with accepting blocks and stuff, but that's the launch part as far as i understand
382 2013-05-07 06:00:19 <gmaxwell> ahh
383 2013-05-07 06:00:20 <gmaxwell> block index 237351ms
384 2013-05-07 06:00:20 slothbag has joined
385 2013-05-07 06:00:30 <Happzz> sup?
386 2013-05-07 06:00:40 <gmaxwell> Happzz: ... are you using mercury delay line storage?
387 2013-05-07 06:00:49 <gmaxwell> 237 seconds to load the block index... crazy.
388 2013-05-07 06:00:50 <Happzz> i don't know?
389 2013-05-07 06:01:07 <gmaxwell> Happzz: what kind of filesystem is this on? what kind of drive is "D:"?
390 2013-05-07 06:01:10 <sydna> gmaxwell: ahaha!
391 2013-05-07 06:01:25 <Happzz> NTFS
392 2013-05-07 06:01:26 <sivu> d: is cd-rom of course!
393 2013-05-07 06:01:28 lolcookie has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
394 2013-05-07 06:01:30 <Happzz> a 500gb 7200rpm hd
395 2013-05-07 06:01:35 metabyte has joined
396 2013-05-07 06:01:49 <gmaxwell> Happzz: connected over wire telegram?
397 2013-05-07 06:01:58 <Happzz> over what
398 2013-05-07 06:02:06 <Happzz> sata cable.
399 2013-05-07 06:02:08 <gmaxwell> hm.
400 2013-05-07 06:02:14 <gmaxwell> have a benchmark too?
401 2013-05-07 06:02:16 <gmaxwell> er tool?
402 2013-05-07 06:02:32 <Happzz> i can get one in a minute
403 2013-05-07 06:02:37 <Happzz> it's a wd wd5000aaks
404 2013-05-07 06:03:05 <Happzz> i've hd tune pro up and running. what do you wanna check?
405 2013-05-07 06:03:07 <slothbag> jgarzik: i just realized your library is pure C.. would it be any faster (to run) or easier to develop in C++? I just need something to run fast.. either C or C++ is fine
406 2013-05-07 06:03:44 lolcookie has joined
407 2013-05-07 06:03:46 <gmaxwell> K. run it on D: .... can it give you IOPS and mbyte/sec read figures?
408 2013-05-07 06:03:54 <gmaxwell> for comparison on my laptop:
409 2013-05-07 06:03:54 <gmaxwell> 2013-05-07 05:40:18 block index 5628ms
410 2013-05-07 06:03:58 <gmaxwell> ^ 5.6 seconds.
411 2013-05-07 06:04:07 m00p has quit (Quit: Leaving)
412 2013-05-07 06:04:10 <Happzz> you should be more specific on what you want from me. what's IOPS
413 2013-05-07 06:04:18 <Bjander> Slothbag is that a bitcoin library in pure C?
414 2013-05-07 06:04:24 <Happzz> benchmark of Read?
415 2013-05-07 06:04:30 poop_ has quit (Quit: Reconnecting)
416 2013-05-07 06:04:30 <slothbag> yeah, libccoin
417 2013-05-07 06:04:34 <gmaxwell> Happzz: Sorry, I don't use windows and I'm not familar with that specific tool. Sure, lets see some read benchmark numbers.
418 2013-05-07 06:04:38 poop_ has joined
419 2013-05-07 06:05:07 dawei101 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
420 2013-05-07 06:05:12 <sydna> gmaxwell: would it be possible to have a copy of your compressed-key vanitygen patch? I understand that using it would be at my own risk.
421 2013-05-07 06:05:20 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
422 2013-05-07 06:05:33 Bjander has joined
423 2013-05-07 06:06:11 Bjander has quit (Client Quit)
424 2013-05-07 06:06:15 andyh2 has joined
425 2013-05-07 06:06:38 <jgarzik> slothbag: I doubt C++ would make libccoin any faster
426 2013-05-07 06:07:08 chorao has quit ()
427 2013-05-07 06:07:43 <gmaxwell> sydna: sure. and it's cpu only. (but it's a pretty simple patch) As long as you know enough to actually _test_ the keys before sending a billion bitcoins to them, fine with me.
428 2013-05-07 06:07:52 <slothbag> jgarzik: ok thanks.
429 2013-05-07 06:08:04 <sydna> gmaxwell: that's fine
430 2013-05-07 06:08:11 <sydna> gmaxwell: thank you
431 2013-05-07 06:08:41 <gmaxwell> It's actually a quite simple patch.
432 2013-05-07 06:09:27 <sydna> simpler than I was expecting too
433 2013-05-07 06:09:32 <Happzz> gmaxwell https://www.dropbox.com/sh/bx6boqup2avlcro/kc6YUytUq_
434 2013-05-07 06:09:39 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
435 2013-05-07 06:10:18 XRPTrader2 has quit (Quit: XRPTrader2)
436 2013-05-07 06:11:19 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
437 2013-05-07 06:11:31 <cjd> slothbag: generally C has a reputation for being faster than C++ because in C++ it's easier to "do more with less" by using abstractions.
438 2013-05-07 06:11:45 <cjd> If you are good then you can write fast code in anything
439 2013-05-07 06:11:45 TD_ has joined
440 2013-05-07 06:12:50 <Luke-Jr> cjd: well, C++ compilers used to suck too
441 2013-05-07 06:12:59 <Happzz> gmaxwell just uploaded another benchmark there
442 2013-05-07 06:13:12 <Luke-Jr> and the output binaries are still rather large if you consider the stdlib
443 2013-05-07 06:13:14 grau has joined
444 2013-05-07 06:13:38 <slothbag> anything.. can you get my nodejs message verification down from 15 seconds to < 1 sec :)
445 2013-05-07 06:13:52 <cjd> hehehe
446 2013-05-07 06:14:10 <cjd> I think node.js would make a good frontend for a future client
447 2013-05-07 06:14:20 <cjd> I am not NOT NOT NOT going to write a client
448 2013-05-07 06:14:22 <cjd> never ever
449 2013-05-07 06:14:39 <cjd> not even once
450 2013-05-07 06:15:05 <weex> a journey of 1,000 miles begins with a single step :P
451 2013-05-07 06:15:23 <sivu> cjd, nowadays c++ compilers tend to optimize better because more development effort is put into them
452 2013-05-07 06:16:02 <cjd> I find that my own special subset of C is everything I need
453 2013-05-07 06:16:03 sydna has quit (Quit: sydna)
454 2013-05-07 06:16:37 <cjd> templates would be kinda cool but everything else is meh
455 2013-05-07 06:16:39 <sivu> cjd, i mean that compiling c code with c++ compiler is better than using c compiler
456 2013-05-07 06:16:54 * Happzz pokes gmaxwell
457 2013-05-07 06:16:56 <sivu> it gives you better syntax checking too
458 2013-05-07 06:17:17 <cjd> the risk is that it gives you stuff you shouldn't have
459 2013-05-07 06:17:18 <cjd> :)
460 2013-05-07 06:17:23 <cjd> and that's a rathole
461 2013-05-07 06:17:24 <Happzz> gmaxwell i guess you're afk, so just respond when you can, i'll be on and off, gonna make some coffee
462 2013-05-07 06:17:53 <sivu> dont drink coffee! it has caffeine
463 2013-05-07 06:17:58 <sivu> it's dangerous
464 2013-05-07 06:18:10 <wumpus> cjd: node.js hmm... I'd think safer languages such as the rust, or mature languages specificually aimed at building distributed systems such as erlang would be more suited... but javascript, why in hell? :)
465 2013-05-07 06:18:24 <Luke-Jr> sivu: not really
466 2013-05-07 06:18:31 <Luke-Jr> sivu: C is way more common than C++
467 2013-05-07 06:18:46 <cjd> javascript is awesome :D
468 2013-05-07 06:19:19 <sivu> Luke-Jr: i didn't say it wasn't
469 2013-05-07 06:19:34 <gmaxwell> Happzz: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/bx6boqup2avlcro/kc6YUytUq_#f:bm2.jpg < thats realllly slow. hm.
470 2013-05-07 06:19:37 mollison has joined
471 2013-05-07 06:19:52 <sivu> Luke-Jr: i said more development effort is put into c++ compilers than c
472 2013-05-07 06:19:59 <cjd> really if someone just wrote a decent static analyzer which detected potential casts in js, it would be just as safe as any other language
473 2013-05-07 06:20:24 <Luke-Jr> sivu: which I doubt
474 2013-05-07 06:20:37 <cjd> g++ vs. gcc...
475 2013-05-07 06:20:43 <cjd> not sure there's much difference
476 2013-05-07 06:20:54 <sivu> it's not the only compiler you know
477 2013-05-07 06:20:57 <Luke-Jr> I've never heard of anyone compiling C with G++ for performance reasons
478 2013-05-07 06:21:02 <gmaxwell> cjd: JS is a pretty irregular language with a fair number of footguns that come purely from the irregularity.
479 2013-05-07 06:21:23 <cjd> yes but it's fast to write stuff in :)
480 2013-05-07 06:21:36 <Luke-Jr> cjd: no faster than Perl
481 2013-05-07 06:21:50 <cjd> yeah, perl is nice
482 2013-05-07 06:21:55 <cjd> I like node a bit better
483 2013-05-07 06:22:04 <gmaxwell> the only kind of performance advantages you get from C++ is that you can get more inlined gunk, for example qsort() takes a function pointer but a stl sort inlines... of course that bits you in the rear when it does too much of it and blows out your icache.
484 2013-05-07 06:22:23 <cjd> hehe
485 2013-05-07 06:22:29 <Happzz> gmaxwell ok... and what do i/we can do about that
486 2013-05-07 06:22:29 sacredchao has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
487 2013-05-07 06:22:40 <Happzz> gmaxwell note that's the "max" one, it could be a singular op
488 2013-05-07 06:22:52 <cjd> gmaxwell: I did that using the preprocessor xD
489 2013-05-07 06:23:02 sacredchao has joined
490 2013-05-07 06:23:09 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I guess you could do the same in C if qsort is defined as inline as the compiler is smart enough to understand a fixed function pointer
491 2013-05-07 06:23:24 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: and even then, C11 helps with the auto type
492 2013-05-07 06:23:27 <gmaxwell> Happzz: even as slow as that is, I'm not sure if it alone explains the performance. Is it that slow if you restart it just after starting it?
493 2013-05-07 06:23:58 <Luke-Jr> too bad GCC's typeof() didn't get into C11
494 2013-05-07 06:24:16 BlackPrapor has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
495 2013-05-07 06:24:28 <cjd> oh that is too bad
496 2013-05-07 06:24:28 <Julius129> its a pitty satoshi didnt write bitcoin in pure C
497 2013-05-07 06:24:46 <cjd> specifically my subset of C :)
498 2013-05-07 06:24:52 dawei101 has joined
499 2013-05-07 06:25:00 * Luke-Jr isn't sure he likes C subsets <.<
500 2013-05-07 06:25:02 <wumpus> automotive c?
501 2013-05-07 06:25:03 <gmaxwell> wumpus: yea, with LTO. There are also some places where idomatic c++ gets optimized where doing the same thing in C won't.. e.g. if you build objects out of structs in C with function pointers, in C++ if type analysis shows only the right kind of object will be accessed it can remove the vtable indirection, so there are some optimizations like that that you won't get if you write C++ programs in C. :)
502 2013-05-07 06:25:08 saulimus has joined
503 2013-05-07 06:25:48 <kadoban> cjd: what exactly do you mean by a subset? what don't you use?
504 2013-05-07 06:26:00 <wumpus> pre-allocate all the things!
505 2013-05-07 06:26:02 <Luke-Jr> not sure what's up with LTO. it seems popular, but at the same time, it's apparently so experimental that even Gentoo refuses to support it
506 2013-05-07 06:26:04 <cjd> It's just C with all 'public' function names prefixed with the name of the file and a _, also allocators and reader/writer
507 2013-05-07 06:27:03 <wumpus> gmaxwell: indeed, C++ compilers have been forced to be pretty smart, as the language is so complex :-)
508 2013-05-07 06:27:07 <kadoban> ah
509 2013-05-07 06:27:30 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: even when LTO works great, it sometimes exposes bugs in existing code that didn't show up before because the optimizer couldn't be agressive enough. It can also cause extremem memory usage while compiling.
510 2013-05-07 06:28:06 <cjd> kadoban: https://ezcrypt.it/Ar6n#Iaay01ii4DR2N7NCoEyivEPB <-- sample of cjC
511 2013-05-07 06:28:07 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: so like -O3 ?
512 2013-05-07 06:29:01 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: yes the same can be said of any optimization, though LTO has the potential to expose even more bugs as it mixes compile units, something the author never imagined probably
513 2013-05-07 06:29:18 <Julius129> wow cjd
514 2013-05-07 06:29:25 <Julius129> where can i find out more
515 2013-05-07 06:29:25 <cjd> ?
516 2013-05-07 06:29:31 <cjd> cjdns
517 2013-05-07 06:29:35 * Luke-Jr wonders if LTO crosses the shared library boundary at all
518 2013-05-07 06:29:40 <wumpus> no, it doesn't
519 2013-05-07 06:29:41 <Julius129> that looks neat
520 2013-05-07 06:29:43 <cjd> I more or less invented the language to write cjdns
521 2013-05-07 06:29:54 <wumpus> a LTO that crosses the shared library boundary would have to run at runtime
522 2013-05-07 06:29:59 <Julius129> look damn awesome
523 2013-05-07 06:30:04 <Julius129> there is some C# in there
524 2013-05-07 06:30:06 <Julius129> :)
525 2013-05-07 06:30:06 <cjd> it has almost everything available in C++ but it compiles just fine as C
526 2013-05-07 06:30:20 <wumpus> which would make your software run effectively in a JIT-ed environment
527 2013-05-07 06:30:23 <cjd> it's just codestyle rules
528 2013-05-07 06:30:31 <Luke-Jr> cjd: looks like normal C to me?
529 2013-05-07 06:30:47 <gmaxwell> its omgstructs everywhere.
530 2013-05-07 06:30:49 <wumpus> the idea is interesting though
531 2013-05-07 06:30:59 <kadoban> cjd: ya, doesn't look too drastic change, sounds kinda nice though
532 2013-05-07 06:31:15 <cjd> struct Allocator* alloc = Allocator_child(myAllocator);
533 2013-05-07 06:31:21 <cjd> potentiallyLeakyFunction(alloc);
534 2013-05-07 06:31:26 <cjd> Allocator_free(alloc);
535 2013-05-07 06:31:34 <Julius129> Its sexy
536 2013-05-07 06:31:37 <cjd> makes potentially leaky functions provably non-leaky
537 2013-05-07 06:31:52 <cjd> every function takes an allocator
538 2013-05-07 06:31:59 <Julius129> cjd what platform can i use it on
539 2013-05-07 06:32:02 * gmaxwell hands cjd a C89 compiler and lets him cry.
540 2013-05-07 06:32:10 <Luke-Jr> cjd: â¦
541 2013-05-07 06:32:12 * cjd uses -std=c99
542 2013-05-07 06:32:14 <cjd> :)
543 2013-05-07 06:32:19 Casimir1904 has joined
544 2013-05-07 06:32:21 * Luke-Jr uses -std=gnu0x
545 2013-05-07 06:32:35 <gmaxwell> cjd: your use of anonymous structs makes stack usage analysis complicated, probably even moreso than vararrays.
546 2013-05-07 06:32:37 <cjd> Julius129: linux/mac/bsd/solaris
547 2013-05-07 06:32:53 <gmaxwell> cjd: yea, great, too bad there are a lot of non-c99 compilers out there.. (like MSVC :P )
548 2013-05-07 06:33:01 <cjd> yeah
549 2013-05-07 06:33:06 <wumpus> MSVC is really holding back the state of the art in C
550 2013-05-07 06:33:06 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: who needs MSVC? :p
551 2013-05-07 06:33:12 <Luke-Jr> MingW ftw
552 2013-05-07 06:33:13 <cjd> I have no desire ever to work on Windows
553 2013-05-07 06:33:17 <cjd> Luke-Jr: +1
554 2013-05-07 06:33:48 <gmaxwell> wumpus: more than you might guess, they actually got some of the features they refuse to implment removed from the C11 standard. (e.g. variable length arrays got made optional)
555 2013-05-07 06:34:04 <cjd> gmaxwell: stack usage analysis -> hard to optimize?
556 2013-05-07 06:34:15 <Julius129> sendMessage(&(struct BitcoinMessage) {
557 2013-05-07 06:34:15 <Julius129> .network = BitcoinMessage_Network_MAIN,
558 2013-05-07 06:34:15 <Julius129> .command = BitcoinMessage_Command_VERACK
559 2013-05-07 06:34:15 <Julius129> }, ctx);
560 2013-05-07 06:34:22 <Julius129> how is that new bitcoinmessage cleaned?
561 2013-05-07 06:34:26 <Julius129> i dont see a free()
562 2013-05-07 06:34:34 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: yes that's the bitcoin dev's mantra, 'screw MSVC'.. even though in principle bitcoin can be compiled with MSVC++ (I did it once) , no one cares a bit :)
563 2013-05-07 06:34:39 <gmaxwell> it's an anonymous struct. it's allocated on the stack and it goes away when the caller goes out of scope.
564 2013-05-07 06:34:44 <cjd> Julius129: it's only ever on the stack
565 2013-05-07 06:34:55 <Julius129> ah
566 2013-05-07 06:34:57 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I don't see anything bitcoin-specific about it ;)
567 2013-05-07 06:35:07 <gmaxwell> presumably if the callee needs to keep it around he has to allocate and copy.
568 2013-05-07 06:35:28 <cjd> actually he writes it to a socket but same idea
569 2013-05-07 06:35:34 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: the last time I had to work with MSVB (years ago), I actually wrote a Makefile to run WINE on the CLI compiler.. :P
570 2013-05-07 06:35:48 <Julius129> cjd, tell me so have you written some bitcoin code in this?
571 2013-05-07 06:36:03 <cjd> not really, just toying around
572 2013-05-07 06:36:13 <gmaxwell> cjd: usually won't complicate analysisâ but it does mean that it can be harder to be confident that your code won't go exploidy at runtime due to running out of stack.
573 2013-05-07 06:36:23 <wumpus> gmaxwell: that's crazy, why would they ever implement C11 anyway if they're not going to implement C99 ... and if they're not going to implement C11, why do they have influence on it
574 2013-05-07 06:36:23 <cjd> ahh right
575 2013-05-07 06:36:27 <cjd> yes, that makes sense
576 2013-05-07 06:36:33 <cjd> I am highly abusive of the stack
577 2013-05-07 06:36:34 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I don't want to squash that fix btw. It's a merge for a reason.
578 2013-05-07 06:36:37 nus has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
579 2013-05-07 06:36:51 <Julius129> im looking for some solutions, to "watch" balances of out of wallet addresses, and ive decided im not going to use some heavy python or java stuff
580 2013-05-07 06:36:59 <cjd> I have one recursive function which recurses just so it can allocate a bunch of memory very very quickly
581 2013-05-07 06:37:12 <Julius129> i want to implement something natively in feeebsd in C
582 2013-05-07 06:37:23 <gmaxwell> cjd: linux spoils you on x86_64 8mb is enough to look infinite if you aren't paying attention.. and it's very not infinite.
583 2013-05-07 06:37:39 <cjd> yeap
584 2013-05-07 06:37:54 <cjd> I take a number of risks like that
585 2013-05-07 06:38:11 <cjd> cjdns uses a grow-down stack to build and deconstruct packets in place
586 2013-05-07 06:38:20 <cjd> I've had to expand that a few times
587 2013-05-07 06:39:53 <cjd> Oh also my Allocator has an onFree() function so I can hook the freeing of the allocator
588 2013-05-07 06:40:06 takeyourhatoff has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
589 2013-05-07 06:40:18 <cjd> nowhere in cjdns is there a deregister type function, the contract is always "free the allocator to disconnect this thing"
590 2013-05-07 06:41:02 <cjd> I have had 2 null/dangling pointer issues in the history of cjdns
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594 2013-05-07 06:43:28 <Julius129> do you have some guides how to start using this
595 2013-05-07 06:43:49 <nospinzy> can someone help me verify bitcoin addresses
596 2013-05-07 06:43:57 <nospinzy> what is the easiest way
597 2013-05-07 06:44:05 <Luke-Jr> cjd: well, at least it's not glib
598 2013-05-07 06:44:09 <cjd> :)
599 2013-05-07 06:44:15 <cjd> Julius129: sadly everything is wrapped up in cjdns at the moment
600 2013-05-07 06:44:17 <Luke-Jr> nospinzy: JSON-RPC validateaddress call?
601 2013-05-07 06:44:48 <nospinzy> i dont know how
602 2013-05-07 06:44:53 <nospinzy> please give me an example
603 2013-05-07 06:44:54 <cjd> I'm interested in possibly writing a builder which can download source packages and build them, something like npm for node
604 2013-05-07 06:45:01 <cjd> very simple and probably in node.js
605 2013-05-07 06:45:06 <nospinzy> there is little to no documentation about it
606 2013-05-07 06:45:18 <jgarzik> cjd: sounds like gentoo ;p
607 2013-05-07 06:45:39 <cjd> more like golang
608 2013-05-07 06:45:52 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
609 2013-05-07 06:45:55 <cjd> that go tools thing, for people who can't stand go
610 2013-05-07 06:46:04 lolcookie has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
611 2013-05-07 06:46:10 <Luke-Jr> I agree with jgarzik
612 2013-05-07 06:46:23 lolcookie has joined
613 2013-05-07 06:46:24 <Julius129> cjd, going to download the port and build it later today
614 2013-05-07 06:46:33 <Julius129> awesome work
615 2013-05-07 06:46:34 <cjd> port?
616 2013-05-07 06:46:38 andyh2 has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
617 2013-05-07 06:46:40 <cjd> port of what?
618 2013-05-07 06:46:42 <Julius129> is there a freebsd port yet
619 2013-05-07 06:46:53 <cjd> of cjdns or bitcoin?
620 2013-05-07 06:47:01 grau has joined
621 2013-05-07 06:47:12 <cjd> cjdns *should* run on fbsd, damn the lack of buildbots and ambition
622 2013-05-07 06:47:34 <Julius129> cjdns
623 2013-05-07 06:47:52 <cjd> yeah, go ahead and try building it, if you run into trouble there are people to help
624 2013-05-07 06:48:18 <cjd> and if there's a bug I'll try to fix it
625 2013-05-07 06:48:37 <Julius129> cool, see you around!
626 2013-05-07 06:48:39 <Julius129> gotta run
627 2013-05-07 06:48:45 <cjd> see ya on the darknet ;)
628 2013-05-07 06:50:34 <nospinzy> Hi i need help with validating bitcoin addresses thru php
629 2013-05-07 06:50:36 <nospinzy> i need help
630 2013-05-07 06:50:51 <Luke-Jr> cc1: fatal error: stdout: No such file or directory <-- wtf? :/
631 2013-05-07 06:52:53 <Arnavion> Atleast it can find stderr!
632 2013-05-07 06:53:06 <Arnavion> Maybe you just need to pipe 2>&1
633 2013-05-07 06:53:30 <Luke-Jr> this is trying to make menuconfig in Linux 3.9.0
634 2013-05-07 06:53:37 <Luke-Jr> in a VM
635 2013-05-07 06:53:48 nus has joined
636 2013-05-07 06:53:56 <Luke-Jr> if I run the command by hand, it works :/
637 2013-05-07 06:54:05 <nospinzy> useless
638 2013-05-07 06:54:09 * Luke-Jr eyes virtfs
639 2013-05-07 06:54:10 <nospinzy> THANKS GUYS
640 2013-05-07 06:54:27 <nospinzy> i thought this would be a pretty easy question for you guys
641 2013-05-07 06:54:29 <nospinzy> guess not
642 2013-05-07 06:54:30 realazthat_ has joined
643 2013-05-07 06:54:35 <nospinzy> guess you are as dumb as me
644 2013-05-07 06:55:36 realazthat has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
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646 2013-05-07 06:55:53 <Luke-Jr> hrm, same problem in tmpfs
647 2013-05-07 06:56:34 realazthat_ is now known as realzthat
648 2013-05-07 06:56:46 realzthat is now known as realazthat
649 2013-05-07 06:56:47 <cjd> nospinzy: you lost me at the 'in php' part =)
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653 2013-05-07 06:57:24 <Happzz> gmaxwell tested, and block index 29973ms
654 2013-05-07 06:57:46 <gmaxwell> hm. okay... so with a warm cache its reasonable. :-/
655 2013-05-07 06:58:02 <Luke-Jr> cjd: careful or he'll PM-flame you :p
656 2013-05-07 06:59:22 <Happzz> gmaxwell that's still like 6 times longer than what it took you
657 2013-05-07 07:00:19 <K1773R> Luke-Jr: how about mkfifo stdout (in the directory)
658 2013-05-07 07:00:26 <K1773R> and in another terminal cat stdout
659 2013-05-07 07:00:42 <K1773R> that will create an stdout pipe :P
660 2013-05-07 07:00:54 <Happzz> gmaxwell any more suggestions? i still don't think it's hardware related.
661 2013-05-07 07:01:50 <Happzz> i've an i7, 4gb ram (barely used atm), zero issues
662 2013-05-07 07:01:53 <gmaxwell> Happzz: I'm not quite sure where to look next. It would be useful to find someone else with windows + 7200 rpm sata and find out what they're getting so at least we could isolate down the config a bit further.
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664 2013-05-07 07:02:45 <Happzz> gmaxwell do you need just their block index timing?
665 2013-05-07 07:04:22 <gmaxwell> yea, that would be a good comparison point.
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669 2013-05-07 07:16:36 <Happzz> gmaxwell so i found someone. with warm cache, he has 23697ms
670 2013-05-07 07:16:41 <Happzz> also 7200rpm sata, etc'.
671 2013-05-07 07:16:43 gagecolton has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
672 2013-05-07 07:19:01 <Happzz> gmaxwell still no reason for 20% longer load time ;(
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772 2013-05-07 09:36:27 <ali1234> can i ask a random node what it thinks the genesis block is?
773 2013-05-07 09:37:28 <ali1234> on the p2p protocol that is
774 2013-05-07 09:48:45 <t7> from the network protocol wikidocument, it doesnt look like it. But i only skim read
775 2013-05-07 09:52:01 <ali1234> me too
776 2013-05-07 09:55:15 <Scrat> oh noes, I can't send 0.006 usd, the sky is falling!
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788 2013-05-07 10:12:35 <sipa> ali1234: you could ask for block headers starting at hash 00000...
789 2013-05-07 10:12:55 <ali1234> ok. the wiki kind of implies that doesn't work...
790 2013-05-07 10:12:58 <ali1234> but i will try it
791 2013-05-07 10:13:20 <ali1234> i have to code up the basic message code first
792 2013-05-07 10:13:26 <sipa> the wiki is often incomplete
793 2013-05-07 10:14:21 <ali1234> i'll have to try every network magic also :)
794 2013-05-07 10:14:57 <ali1234> i want to identify random nodes - which alt coin they belong to
795 2013-05-07 10:17:54 <BlueMatt-Work> has anyone else duplicated #1961
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804 2013-05-07 10:35:11 <melvster> bitcoin i understand uses ECDSA secp256k1 ?
805 2013-05-07 10:36:11 <SomeoneWeird> yes
806 2013-05-07 10:36:49 <melvster> it looks like browsers are only going to support secp256r1
807 2013-05-07 10:36:51 <melvster> :(
808 2013-05-07 10:37:59 <melvster> http://www.w3.org/TR/WebCryptoAPI/#EcKeyGenParams-dictionary
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811 2013-05-07 10:39:15 <sipa> it was a bit an unusual choice
812 2013-05-07 10:39:52 <sipa> i think satoshi chose it because there were potential performance improvements possible with k1
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819 2013-05-07 10:51:12 <melvster> sipa: sipa yes i hear 30-50% performance improvement
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821 2013-05-07 10:51:39 <melvster> hopefully i can try and persuade harry and david to include this
822 2013-05-07 10:52:20 <sipa> melvster: well, my own implementation about 6 times faster than openssl's (which doesn't have specific secp256k1 routines), but i may have some optimizations that could be applied to other curves too
823 2013-05-07 10:52:21 <melvster> i sent a mail out to the list
824 2013-05-07 10:52:37 <melvster> sipa: wow, cool!
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834 2013-05-07 11:15:00 <The_Fly> have we tried compiling with emscripten an secp256k1 C implementation?
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837 2013-05-07 11:15:20 <The_Fly> ive ported a few C projects over, it's fairly easy to use too
838 2013-05-07 11:15:35 <The_Fly> and now outputs ASM.js which will benefit firefox users
839 2013-05-07 11:17:03 <BlueMatt-Work> you can try sipa's https://github.com/sipa/secp256k1
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841 2013-05-07 11:17:40 <wumpus> may be an interesting experiment, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are already js implementations of secp256k1 for various bitcoin projects
842 2013-05-07 11:17:42 <The_Fly> the asm in there might be problematic
843 2013-05-07 11:17:55 <The_Fly> as emscripten relies on LLVM IR
844 2013-05-07 11:18:03 <wumpus> the asm is optional
845 2013-05-07 11:18:08 <The_Fly> ah ok, nice
846 2013-05-07 11:18:15 <The_Fly> so melvster, maybe try that...
847 2013-05-07 11:18:21 <BlueMatt-Work> no, it will use either asm or gmp or openssl (for their bigints) based on what you chose
848 2013-05-07 11:18:23 * BlueMatt-Work -> meeting
849 2013-05-07 11:19:21 <The_Fly> ah... meetings, where no work gets done, just talking about work
850 2013-05-07 11:19:55 <The_Fly> melvster: what are you looking to do in-browser?
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852 2013-05-07 11:20:48 <melvster> The_Fly: web payments
853 2013-05-07 11:21:04 <The_Fly> transaction signing in the browser?
854 2013-05-07 11:21:12 <The_Fly> localstorage wallet?
855 2013-05-07 11:21:16 <melvster> The_Fly: yes and key provisioning
856 2013-05-07 11:21:21 <The_Fly> interesting
857 2013-05-07 11:21:30 <melvster> localStorage is not as secure as native
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859 2013-05-07 11:21:39 <The_Fly> no but you could add a layer of crypto over it
860 2013-05-07 11:21:45 <melvster> sure
861 2013-05-07 11:21:56 <melvster> but id rather use the standard api if there's going to be one
862 2013-05-07 11:22:03 <The_Fly> standard api?
863 2013-05-07 11:22:18 <melvster> web crypto in the browser ... should be out in the next year
864 2013-05-07 11:22:25 <The_Fly> right
865 2013-05-07 11:22:32 <melvster> http://www.w3.org/TR/WebCryptoAPI/#EcKeyGenParams-dictionary
866 2013-05-07 11:22:36 <The_Fly> sure, i know
867 2013-05-07 11:22:42 <The_Fly> but in the interim you can port sipa's code
868 2013-05-07 11:22:57 <The_Fly> i was really talking about how you'd store the priv/pub keypairs
869 2013-05-07 11:22:59 <melvster> there's a few javascript solutions out there
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871 2013-05-07 11:23:16 <The_Fly> i imagine an emscripten port would be the most performant
872 2013-05-07 11:23:32 <The_Fly> anyway, if it's an offline application (is it?) what are you doing for storage?
873 2013-05-07 11:23:34 <melvster> The_Fly: yes im keen to get a good key store solution in the browser that is more usable than X.509 which is pretty much all there is today
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875 2013-05-07 11:23:45 <The_Fly> or were you planning to sync to server the wallet?
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877 2013-05-07 11:24:13 <melvster> The_Fly: id like the wallet keys to be securely kept in the browser ideally
878 2013-05-07 11:24:26 <The_Fly> they could get lost easily this way
879 2013-05-07 11:24:26 <melvster> to the same standard that client side certificates are stored
880 2013-05-07 11:24:38 <The_Fly> i'd opt for keeping it server side but decrypting locally
881 2013-05-07 11:24:59 <The_Fly> however you'd be vulnerable to any man-in-the-middle attack which injects javascrpipt
882 2013-05-07 11:25:01 <melvster> is a good solution but you can then brute force it
883 2013-05-07 11:25:02 <The_Fly> *script
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885 2013-05-07 11:25:11 <jaakkos> sipa: do you have C versions of secp256k1_fe_mul_inner and secp256k1_fe_sqr_inner?
886 2013-05-07 11:25:17 <The_Fly> melvster: brute force?
887 2013-05-07 11:25:23 <The_Fly> i doubt it
888 2013-05-07 11:25:45 <The_Fly> what you should be worried about is any attack which modifies the payload your client's are running
889 2013-05-07 11:26:07 <melvster> The_Fly: if you look at the ripple.com solution they keep wallets in a server side vault with a password ... that would be possible to brute force if you had access to the valut
890 2013-05-07 11:26:07 <The_Fly> which could easily catch the decrypted wallet and send it off somewhere
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892 2013-05-07 11:26:37 <melvster> yes also a worry :)
893 2013-05-07 11:26:40 <The_Fly> melvster: not if you enforce long, high entropy passphrases
894 2013-05-07 11:26:47 <The_Fly> and you could also opt for multi-factor auth
895 2013-05-07 11:27:02 <The_Fly> e.g. user storing a key on their USB stick, plus passphrase
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898 2013-05-07 11:27:15 <melvster> The_Fly: multi factor is good ... but most passphrases dont have that much entropy on the web
899 2013-05-07 11:27:44 <The_Fly> with multifactor the passphrase becomes less important
900 2013-05-07 11:27:48 <The_Fly> you get enough from the key
901 2013-05-07 11:27:56 <melvster> may be the way to go, yes
902 2013-05-07 11:28:00 <The_Fly> they'd have to bruteforce both
903 2013-05-07 11:28:03 <The_Fly> impossible
904 2013-05-07 11:28:10 <jaakkos> sipa: oh, they're there
905 2013-05-07 11:28:34 <melvster> but people find pass phrases annoying ... 'password fatigue'
906 2013-05-07 11:28:49 Casimir1904 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
907 2013-05-07 11:28:57 <The_Fly> password vault
908 2013-05-07 11:29:03 <The_Fly> use something like keepass
909 2013-05-07 11:29:11 <The_Fly> but yes, i know what you mean
910 2013-05-07 11:29:19 <melvster> sure, but then that becomes a single point of failure
911 2013-05-07 11:29:36 <The_Fly> i keep mine backed up in a few places
912 2013-05-07 11:29:53 <The_Fly> and have the most important passwords on paper
913 2013-05-07 11:30:00 <melvster> the thing about keys in the browser is that the browser manufacturers will be incentivized to have whole teams working on the security
914 2013-05-07 11:31:04 <melvster> you can then use the key store for lots of things such as distributed social nets, payments, secure messaging ... all with the same API ...
915 2013-05-07 11:31:25 <The_Fly> yeah it'd be nice
916 2013-05-07 11:31:26 seeingidog__ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
917 2013-05-07 11:31:34 <The_Fly> would also be nice if they got zlib functions in the browser
918 2013-05-07 11:31:40 Casimir1904 has joined
919 2013-05-07 11:31:48 <The_Fly> i had to port zlib with emscripten
920 2013-05-07 11:32:03 <The_Fly> as client requests cant notify the server of a gzip payload
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922 2013-05-07 11:32:07 <melvster> the main motivation for getting this stuff in the browser is that you can reach a large audience via the browser
923 2013-05-07 11:32:07 <The_Fly> only server->client
924 2013-05-07 11:32:30 <The_Fly> yeah
925 2013-05-07 11:32:43 <melvster> email was delivered quite effectively via the webmail providers
926 2013-05-07 11:32:52 <The_Fly> browser plugins are the way to go for bitcoin i think
927 2013-05-07 11:32:55 <melvster> even tho email is a different P2P protocol
928 2013-05-07 11:33:02 <The_Fly> i like that some gateways have mobile apps for QR scanning
929 2013-05-07 11:33:21 <The_Fly> but if i can click a bitcoin: uri and pay, i'd like that
930 2013-05-07 11:33:24 <The_Fly> you probably already can
931 2013-05-07 11:33:25 <melvster> im helping to work on a plugin
932 2013-05-07 11:33:35 <melvster> but it's sometimes hard to get people to install stuff
933 2013-05-07 11:33:35 <The_Fly> ah, ive just started working on one ;)
934 2013-05-07 11:33:43 <The_Fly> well...
935 2013-05-07 11:33:59 <melvster> i want to port payments into the plugin too
936 2013-05-07 11:34:09 <The_Fly> you dont really need to
937 2013-05-07 11:34:17 <The_Fly> but it would be good...
938 2013-05-07 11:34:19 <melvster> but with web crypto every browser will have that api without needing the plugin
939 2013-05-07 11:34:32 <melvster> so its low hanging fruit
940 2013-05-07 11:34:40 <The_Fly> i think you're going to end up needing most of a bitcoind in-browser (i.e. not happening)
941 2013-05-07 11:34:51 <The_Fly> of course you can make transactions without the whole blockchain
942 2013-05-07 11:34:55 <melvster> sure
943 2013-05-07 11:35:04 <melvster> tx and signing
944 2013-05-07 11:35:09 <The_Fly> how much of the p2p can you avoid either?
945 2013-05-07 11:35:21 <The_Fly> would you just pull it all of blockinfo/explorer?
946 2013-05-07 11:35:27 <The_Fly> *blockchain/explorer
947 2013-05-07 11:35:35 <melvster> good question
948 2013-05-07 11:35:44 <The_Fly> after the transactions are signed then what?
949 2013-05-07 11:35:54 <The_Fly> http over to a bitcoin node somewhere?
950 2013-05-07 11:36:01 CaptainBlaze has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
951 2013-05-07 11:36:07 nomailing has joined
952 2013-05-07 11:36:28 <melvster> if you want to send it to the block, sure
953 2013-05-07 11:36:36 <The_Fly> well you need to
954 2013-05-07 11:36:37 <The_Fly> to pay
955 2013-05-07 11:36:41 <melvster> not really
956 2013-05-07 11:36:42 <sipa> jaakkos: there are 4 (i think) implementations for the field routines (uint64 C, __int128 C, GMP, x86_64 asm), and 2 for the num routines (GMP and OpenSSL)
957 2013-05-07 11:36:45 <melvster> that can happen out of band
958 2013-05-07 11:36:52 <melvster> but the block will prevent a double spend
959 2013-05-07 11:36:57 <melvster> and is the definitive record
960 2013-05-07 11:37:02 <The_Fly> you need it on the bitcoin p2p network
961 2013-05-07 11:37:04 <The_Fly> bottom line
962 2013-05-07 11:37:11 <The_Fly> otherwise it is not spent.
963 2013-05-07 11:37:19 <melvster> depends on how much you trust the counter party
964 2013-05-07 11:37:24 <melvster> many transactions can net out
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966 2013-05-07 11:37:32 <melvster> before you go to the block for settlement
967 2013-05-07 11:37:37 <sipa> whether a coin is spent or not is a local property
968 2013-05-07 11:37:52 <sipa> the blockchain exists to make sure parties reach a consensus in case of conflict
969 2013-05-07 11:37:59 <melvster> yes
970 2013-05-07 11:38:04 <The_Fly> exactly
971 2013-05-07 11:38:36 <melvster> lets say i have a poker game with a group of friends
972 2013-05-07 11:38:39 <The_Fly> and im highlighting that because i doubt many merchants will accept payments from customers which are not confirmed
973 2013-05-07 11:38:43 <melvster> we may have 10,000 transactions
974 2013-05-07 11:38:52 <melvster> but only at the end would i put the balances back to the block
975 2013-05-07 11:39:14 <melvster> or i may just save the buyin for the next game
976 2013-05-07 11:39:38 CaptainBlaze has joined
977 2013-05-07 11:40:02 <melvster> i try to avoid spamming the block chain if possible, though I agree it's unavoidable when the counter parties are relatively unknown to each other
978 2013-05-07 11:40:19 <melvster> im also working on an out of band transaction system
979 2013-05-07 11:40:21 nomailing has left ()
980 2013-05-07 11:40:29 <melvster> which can be netted
981 2013-05-07 11:40:31 tcatm_ has joined
982 2013-05-07 11:41:23 <melvster> if you look at something like ad sense for example, they'll do 1000s of micro transactions, but then only one payment per month through the traditional banking system
983 2013-05-07 11:41:46 <The_Fly> the coins have no trustable value until they are confirmed unspent
984 2013-05-07 11:41:49 <melvster> so long as you trust google not to screw you over that's ok
985 2013-05-07 11:42:44 <The_Fly> i see an unconfirmed transaction almost akin to a cheque
986 2013-05-07 11:43:12 <melvster> yes it's a bit better than that even
987 2013-05-07 11:43:22 <The_Fly> just a tiny bit
988 2013-05-07 11:43:33 <The_Fly> in that you COULD spend it, if it is valid and remains unspent
989 2013-05-07 11:43:44 <The_Fly> you could just sign junk transactions with non-existing inputs
990 2013-05-07 11:44:16 <The_Fly> until the merchant verifies that the outputs are unspent, it's nothing more than a "promise"
991 2013-05-07 11:44:40 <melvster> agree
992 2013-05-07 11:44:54 <melvster> tho it's a promise that most people keep
993 2013-05-07 11:45:03 <melvster> so you have a heuristic
994 2013-05-07 11:45:09 <The_Fly> well you'd get milage out of rating system
995 2013-05-07 11:45:15 <The_Fly> *a
996 2013-05-07 11:45:17 <melvster> definitely
997 2013-05-07 11:45:21 <melvster> also something im working on
998 2013-05-07 11:45:30 <TD> it's not a promise
999 2013-05-07 11:45:33 sacrelege has joined
1000 2013-05-07 11:45:36 <TD> that's obviously nonsense under the current rule set
1001 2013-05-07 11:45:46 xeroc has joined
1002 2013-05-07 11:45:47 <TD> once a tx is broadcast nodes won't replace it with double spends in their memory pool
1003 2013-05-07 11:45:57 <The_Fly> i meant an out of band transaction TD
1004 2013-05-07 11:46:07 <TD> ok, if it's not broadcast then sure. though even then you can raise the confidence
1005 2013-05-07 11:46:09 <TD> e.g. with secure hardware
1006 2013-05-07 11:46:21 <The_Fly> hmm...
1007 2013-05-07 11:46:39 jok has joined
1008 2013-05-07 11:46:56 <melvster> i was talking to adam back, he's also interested in a distributed web of trust and reputation system
1009 2013-05-07 11:47:46 <melvster> nanotube's rating system in bitcoin-otc is a great start imho
1010 2013-05-07 11:47:50 datagutt has joined
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1013 2013-05-07 11:57:20 <The_Fly> http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0301141
1014 2013-05-07 11:57:32 <The_Fly> in 1000 qubits time, we're screwed
1015 2013-05-07 11:57:47 <The_Fly> let's get to work on a quantum-cryptographic currency
1016 2013-05-07 12:00:18 czaanja has joined
1017 2013-05-07 12:00:53 <The_Fly> "The bank of coherent states"
1018 2013-05-07 12:01:30 <The_Fly> ShorBank
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1047 2013-05-07 12:34:06 <xeroc> A 160 bit elliptic curve cryptographic key c
1048 2013-05-07 12:34:06 <xeroc> ould be broken
1049 2013-05-07 12:34:08 <xeroc> on a quantum computer using around 1000 qubits
1050 2013-05-07 12:34:16 <xeroc> bitcoin uses 256 bit ..
1051 2013-05-07 12:34:24 <xeroc> thats a BIG difference
1052 2013-05-07 12:35:09 CaptainBlaze has left ()
1053 2013-05-07 12:35:55 datagutt has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1054 2013-05-07 12:35:56 <xeroc> otal number of qubits (roughly
1055 2013-05-07 12:35:56 <xeroc> 6
1056 2013-05-07 12:35:56 <xeroc> n
1057 2013-05-07 12:35:59 <xeroc> he says also
1058 2013-05-07 12:36:00 <xeroc> otal number of qubits (roughly
1059 2013-05-07 12:36:00 <xeroc> 6
1060 2013-05-07 12:36:00 <xeroc> n
1061 2013-05-07 12:36:04 <xeroc> woops ..
1062 2013-05-07 12:36:17 <xeroc> you need 6*n for shor on ecc
1063 2013-05-07 12:36:20 <wumpus> just add some extra qubits, easy right? :-)
1064 2013-05-07 12:36:35 <xeroc> 1536 qubits ..
1065 2013-05-07 12:37:11 <xeroc> btw .. its a probabilistic 'cracking' of ECC .. not deterministic ..
1066 2013-05-07 12:37:39 <TD> sipa: qq - are we using c++0x yet?
1067 2013-05-07 12:37:58 <wumpus> we're not using c++0x
1068 2013-05-07 12:38:08 <xeroc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_quantum_computing
1069 2013-05-07 12:38:19 <xeroc> D-Wave claims a quantum computation using 84 qubits
1070 2013-05-07 12:38:44 datagutt_ is now known as datagutt
1071 2013-05-07 12:38:48 <wumpus> but it's not the kind of quantum computation that can execute shor's algorithm
1072 2013-05-07 12:38:52 <xeroc> a long way to go for quantum computation to crack ECC/RSA
1073 2013-05-07 12:39:06 <xeroc> wumpus: your are right .. afaik
1074 2013-05-07 12:42:38 PhantomSpark has joined
1075 2013-05-07 12:44:07 <t7> we should all be using lattice based crypto
1076 2013-05-07 12:44:43 <t7> no one is gonna tell you once they implement shor's. just sniff your online banking sessions
1077 2013-05-07 12:45:16 PhantomSpark has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1078 2013-05-07 12:45:30 splnkr has quit (Quit: splnkr)
1079 2013-05-07 12:45:57 * t7 recalls an episode of numb3rs where someone thought he had broken RSA but he hadnt and then they had to pretend he had or something
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1083 2013-05-07 12:51:53 <wumpus> xeroc: this mentions d-wave and shor's algorithm briefly http://wavewatching.net/2012/12/27/big-bad-quantum-computer-revisited/
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1086 2013-05-07 12:53:08 <gavinandresen> somebody ping me when a quantum computer can factor a 15-bit number faster than a conventional computer. Until then⦠"meh"
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1090 2013-05-07 12:54:27 <t7> gavinandresen, it can factor 15 :O
1091 2013-05-07 12:54:32 <t7> but not a 15 bit number :)
1092 2013-05-07 12:55:30 <alaricsp> So, four bits then :-)
1093 2013-05-07 12:55:57 <t7> i duno if it worked for any 4 bit number
1094 2013-05-07 12:56:05 <t7> i remember 15 being in the news though
1095 2013-05-07 12:59:06 jim00001 has quit (Quit: jim00001)
1096 2013-05-07 13:00:19 tg has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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1098 2013-05-07 13:01:19 <sydna> even Shakuntala Devi couldn't manage that one
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1102 2013-05-07 13:05:14 <The_Fly> wumpus: yes, they're using adiabatic qc
1103 2013-05-07 13:05:14 krator44 has joined
1104 2013-05-07 13:05:38 <The_Fly> and most quantum algorithms will give you an output distribution
1105 2013-05-07 13:06:42 rushed has quit (Quit: rushed)
1106 2013-05-07 13:06:50 <The_Fly> there's decoherence to deal with
1107 2013-05-07 13:07:20 * alaricsp is used to getting incoherent answers
1108 2013-05-07 13:07:26 rushed has joined
1109 2013-05-07 13:07:39 <The_Fly> lol
1110 2013-05-07 13:07:59 rdymac has joined
1111 2013-05-07 13:08:32 <xeroc> wumpus: thanks for the link .. I am quit familiar with QUC as I visited some courses at univeristy during my studies ..
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1114 2013-05-07 13:09:02 <xeroc> gavinandresen: the word 'faster' is wrong in terms of quantum computation ..
1115 2013-05-07 13:09:22 <Diablo-D3> yes, qc is more of a wider than a faster
1116 2013-05-07 13:09:31 <Diablo-D3> and even thats not right
1117 2013-05-07 13:09:35 <xeroc> yup
1118 2013-05-07 13:09:47 <xeroc> thats whats called 'probabilistic computation'
1119 2013-05-07 13:10:20 <Diablo-D3> yeah it can point out where to look
1120 2013-05-07 13:10:48 <xeroc> it can also give you an answer with a certain probability
1121 2013-05-07 13:10:58 <xeroc> but just for some very few applications ..
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1123 2013-05-07 13:11:29 <xeroc> such as shor's factorization (which is actually not doing a factorization but finding the order of a number in the galois field)
1124 2013-05-07 13:11:38 <xeroc> or there was groovers search algorithm ..
1125 2013-05-07 13:11:51 <xeroc> and thats it .. not more quantum algorithms for now ..
1126 2013-05-07 13:12:11 <Diablo-D3> lol
1127 2013-05-07 13:12:14 <Diablo-D3> >no more
1128 2013-05-07 13:12:19 <Diablo-D3> ie, the only two anyone can ever remember
1129 2013-05-07 13:13:15 <xeroc> are there more ..
1130 2013-05-07 13:13:15 <cjd> have they actually shown factoring of numbers bigger than like 15 ?
1131 2013-05-07 13:13:16 <xeroc> ?
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1133 2013-05-07 13:13:28 <xeroc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_quantum_computing
1134 2013-05-07 13:13:42 <cjd> My understanding of shor attack is it's (still) a paper tiger
1135 2013-05-07 13:13:55 <xeroc> 2 Algorithms based on the quantum Fourier transform
1136 2013-05-07 13:13:55 <xeroc> 2.1 DeutschâJozsa algorithm 2.2 Simon's algorithm 2.3 Quantum phase estimation algorithm 2.4 Shor's algorithm 2.5 Hidden subgroup problem 2.6 Estimating Gauss sums 2.7 Fourier fishing and Fourier checking
1137 2013-05-07 13:14:00 <xeroc> i see .. there are more :-)
1138 2013-05-07 13:14:13 <xeroc> most of them are used by Shor's algorithm
1139 2013-05-07 13:14:18 <The_Fly> shor's is fourier based iirc
1140 2013-05-07 13:14:22 <xeroc> 4.2 Triangle-finding problem
1141 2013-05-07 13:14:26 <xeroc> 4.4 Group commutativity
1142 2013-05-07 13:14:29 <xeroc> never heard of
1143 2013-05-07 13:14:34 krator44 has joined
1144 2013-05-07 13:14:43 <xeroc> The_Fly: jup
1145 2013-05-07 13:14:52 <xeroc> better say: phase estimation ..
1146 2013-05-07 13:14:54 <The_Fly> i mean, seth lloyd will tell you that chlorophil is doing quantum random walk and quantum search
1147 2013-05-07 13:15:01 <xeroc> which is somewhat given by the fourier transform
1148 2013-05-07 13:15:11 <xeroc> lol
1149 2013-05-07 13:15:14 <The_Fly> maybe plants will evolve to hack bitcoin
1150 2013-05-07 13:15:25 <xeroc> rofl ..
1151 2013-05-07 13:15:36 systemParanoid has joined
1152 2013-05-07 13:15:42 <The_Fly> a funded army of trifids
1153 2013-05-07 13:15:52 <The_Fly> i bet they would 3d print their guns and tanks
1154 2013-05-07 13:16:36 <The_Fly> im sure amir taaki has considered this possibility
1155 2013-05-07 13:17:16 <The_Fly> (still lolling at his attempt to promote decentralised currency by raising the topic 3d printed guns)
1156 2013-05-07 13:17:23 <wumpus> did this suddenly become #bitcoin-psychedelic?
1157 2013-05-07 13:17:25 <The_Fly> anyway, OFF TOPIC!!!
1158 2013-05-07 13:18:39 agricocb has joined
1159 2013-05-07 13:19:11 <The_Fly> wumpus: i take your point, although lifeforms have evolved to exploit quantum effects they are probably very unlikely to evolve the ability to crack secp256k1
1160 2013-05-07 13:19:25 <The_Fly> but it could be the plot for a sci-fi novel
1161 2013-05-07 13:19:34 <The_Fly> and if you steal it, i want a cut
1162 2013-05-07 13:20:16 <wumpus> hehe
1163 2013-05-07 13:21:41 <wumpus> indeed, it makes sense for lifeforms to evolve to exploit quantum effects, nothing of nature is 'off-limits' to nature
1164 2013-05-07 13:25:23 <The_Fly> and nature already has a currency of sorts, glucose is valuable
1165 2013-05-07 13:25:35 <The_Fly> actually no... photons
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1169 2013-05-07 13:26:48 <The_Fly> photo-coin
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1176 2013-05-07 13:30:47 <theorbtwo> It would be potentially interesting to try to use artifical selection to evolve a highly parallel bitcoin solver...
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1179 2013-05-07 13:32:59 <The_Fly> could use genetic programming, but to simulation your solutions to evaluate fitness is going to require a lot of cpu power
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1181 2013-05-07 13:33:23 <The_Fly> human-designed would be the winner for something so complex
1182 2013-05-07 13:33:53 <sipa> TD: no, i think the ancient compiler used in gitian doesn't support it sufficiently yet
1183 2013-05-07 13:33:57 <The_Fly> the curse of dimensionality bites you with ga/gp (and machine learning in general)
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1186 2013-05-07 13:38:06 <TD> sipa: :(
1187 2013-05-07 13:38:17 <theorbtwo> The_Fly: Well, I was thinking of genetic programming of actual genomes, but yeah, you'll evolve something that will hash at an outstanding rate... in a couple million years.
1188 2013-05-07 13:38:28 <TD> sipa: what's the reason gitian uses a VM again? surely you could just unzip a toolchain into a directory and go? (with a few linker scripts to control ld.so symbol versions)
1189 2013-05-07 13:38:32 <sipa> TD: i'd love to have auto types move references though :)
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1191 2013-05-07 13:39:05 <sipa> TD: no idea, sounds harder to do deterministically and controllably (if you just unzip a toolchain, where does it come from?)
1192 2013-05-07 13:39:15 <sipa> but i haven't experimented with it
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1195 2013-05-07 13:39:49 <TD> sipa: does it matter where it comes from? what we care about is that the outputs match. if anything we don't want everyone to get their toolchain from the same sources
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1199 2013-05-07 13:40:22 <sipa> TD: if the idea is "download this binary, and compile bitcoin with it", it's sort of pointless, no?
1200 2013-05-07 13:40:27 <sipa> the binary can be rigged
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1202 2013-05-07 13:41:20 <sipa> of course that problem exists now too, but just doing a basic ubuntu install from the official sources is a lot more trustable
1203 2013-05-07 13:41:37 <gavinandresen> Any C++ template wizards here who can tell me how I'm being an idiot? https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/5532495
1204 2013-05-07 13:42:21 <wumpus> wasn't the reason for using such an ancient VM to remain compatible with ancient versions of linux distributions? Using a newer toolchain in any other way will have the same issue
1205 2013-05-07 13:44:11 <sipa> wumpus: yes
1206 2013-05-07 13:44:49 <wumpus> we also suffer from the old VM with windows compiles
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1211 2013-05-07 13:49:30 <TD> gavinandresen: i think you may have to force the template to be instantiated within its compilation unit for that type
1212 2013-05-07 13:49:48 <TD> gavinandresen: if you move the definitions into the header, does it work? the linker should collapse down duped definitions via the comdat section
1213 2013-05-07 13:50:26 <gavinandresen> TD: mmm. Bleuch, ugly...
1214 2013-05-07 13:50:51 <TD> usually i see templates implemented in headers for that reason. otherwise you have to have a dummy instantiation in some other file, i think.
1215 2013-05-07 13:51:13 <TD> but c++ templates are rather black magic in many ways ..... we actually forbid them in the google C++ style guide outside a few controlled exceptions
1216 2013-05-07 13:51:39 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
1217 2013-05-07 13:51:56 <gavinandresen> TD: what does google suggest for passing around functions?
1218 2013-05-07 13:51:58 <TD> i think the quickest/best fix is to move the definitions of the functions inline to the header so the compiler knows how to instantiate it
1219 2013-05-07 13:52:10 <wumpus> doesn't boost have some other function pointer abstraction?
1220 2013-05-07 13:52:17 <sipa> TD, wumpus: right, maybe miscommunication here: the reason for using a VM is a more trustable environment; there would be no problem in using a more recent distro for building, but that would mean linux binaries that are incompatible with older systems
1221 2013-05-07 13:52:19 <gavinandresen> wumpus: yes, I'm looking into that now....
1222 2013-05-07 13:52:41 <wumpus> sipa: agreed
1223 2013-05-07 13:52:42 <TD> there's a Closure library that creates Closure* objects. it uses templates. it's one of the special exceptions - there's actually a perl script that auto-generates lots of boilerplate code as part of the system
1224 2013-05-07 13:52:52 <gavinandresen> TD: lol
1225 2013-05-07 13:53:04 <wumpus> boost::function
1226 2013-05-07 13:53:05 <TD> yeah, i lolled when i saw it too. but the API it presents is pretty nice
1227 2013-05-07 13:53:21 <sipa> TD: wut? perl? isn't that pretty much outlawed these days?
1228 2013-05-07 13:53:35 <sipa> (i have little problems with perl, but i heard it's no longer accepted)
1229 2013-05-07 13:53:43 <TD> sipa: yeah, i know, but if everyone gets stuff from exactly the same source, then the "reproducible build" will cause everyone to reproduce a bad build ....
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1231 2013-05-07 13:53:49 <gavinandresen> wumpus: yeah, I'll see if passing a boost::function<void (*)()> works. If I can figure out the right syntax
1232 2013-05-07 13:54:07 <wumpus> outlawed? by the US govt? *ducks*
1233 2013-05-07 13:54:26 <TD> oh, never mind
1234 2013-05-07 13:54:30 <Scrat> nice ascii art
1235 2013-05-07 13:54:30 <TD> looks like i'm mis-remembering - it's python :)
1236 2013-05-07 13:54:31 <sipa> TD: but the current base environment is just an ubuntu install, which has cryptographic checksums for packages, and gpg signed repositories, and ...
1237 2013-05-07 13:54:47 <sipa> TD: of course that can be rigged too, but much much harder
1238 2013-05-07 13:55:06 <sipa> if you're going to say "download this binary to compile", why not "download this bitcoin binary" ?
1239 2013-05-07 13:55:34 <TD> at some point, you're downloading binaries. whether it's a full blown ubuntu install or a toolchain - i don't see the difference?
1240 2013-05-07 13:56:12 <wumpus> I think it's easier to keep a build inside a vm deterministic
1241 2013-05-07 13:56:18 <wumpus> as everything can be controlled
1242 2013-05-07 13:56:21 <TD> gavinandresen: yeah, looking at how we do it, the classes have the implementation code all in the headers, basically
1243 2013-05-07 13:56:40 <wumpus> gavinandresen: yes, I think that will work
1244 2013-05-07 13:56:42 <sipa> you're not manually downloading anything, you trust your own system to start with (it has a script packaged to build an ubuntu install inside a VM)
1245 2013-05-07 13:57:11 <wumpus> gavinandresen: then you odn't need template arguments anymore
1246 2013-05-07 13:57:20 <gavinandresen> wumpus: yup
1247 2013-05-07 13:57:28 <sipa> and indeed, VMs are certainly easier to control, but i don't think it'd be undoable with a binary toolchain download
1248 2013-05-07 13:57:47 rushed has left ()
1249 2013-05-07 13:58:02 <wumpus> it's not undoable, but all kinds of packages on your system may affect the eventual outcome, ie even a different version of libc may slightly change the output
1250 2013-05-07 13:58:02 <TD> about 10 years ago i worked on a framework that let you compile portable binaries (portable between linux distros) without any VMs or fancy tools
1251 2013-05-07 13:58:04 <TD> just regular toolchains
1252 2013-05-07 13:58:19 <TD> it fixed the glibc symbol versions to older symbols. that was one of the easiest things to do actually
1253 2013-05-07 13:58:23 <sipa> wumpus: so you use statically linked binaries
1254 2013-05-07 13:58:26 <TD> and had a bunch of other weird hacks to handle things
1255 2013-05-07 13:58:28 <wumpus> the idea of gitian is that you have a list of sha sums of all the packages
1256 2013-05-07 13:58:36 <wumpus> along with the produced executable
1257 2013-05-07 13:58:42 <TD> sipa: you don't need static binaries actually. you can just tell "ld" to use the old versions compatible with old distros
1258 2013-05-07 13:58:47 <sipa> TD: ok
1259 2013-05-07 13:58:57 <TD> where the pain REALLY starts is stupid libraries that use macros in the header files to rewrite your code
1260 2013-05-07 13:59:12 <sipa> well, if someone can make gitian easier to set up, by all means please
1261 2013-05-07 13:59:14 <TD> DoTheFoo(a,b,c); gets rewritten to be DoTheFoo2(a,b,c);
1262 2013-05-07 13:59:25 <TD> and then you end up with a dependency on the new library even though your code is compatible with the old library
1263 2013-05-07 13:59:35 <TD> that kind of nonsense was rampant in some linux libraries at the time (like gtk)
1264 2013-05-07 13:59:36 <gavinandresen> wumpus: void RPCRunLater(const std::string& name, boost::function<void(void)> func, int64 nSeconds) : works nicely
1265 2013-05-07 13:59:41 <sipa> that's really the only problem with it (and the fact that people don't really care)
1266 2013-05-07 13:59:52 <wumpus> gavinandresen: cool
1267 2013-05-07 14:00:03 <sipa> and don't really know it either, i guess
1268 2013-05-07 14:00:59 <wumpus> gitian is pretty easy to use
1269 2013-05-07 14:01:14 <sipa> once it works, yes
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1272 2013-05-07 14:02:27 <TD> when i last looked it required reconfiguring the kernel and other VM related things, which seemed way too complicated for a script that basically compiles a binary in a trustable manner. i'm pretty sure the whole VM aspect is unnecessary. you could just have a script that downloads toolchain sources from gnu, compiles them with the system compiler, installs them to a prefix and that's your toolchain. but yeah, i don't care enough to work on t
1273 2013-05-07 14:02:27 <TD> his :)
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1275 2013-05-07 14:03:13 <wumpus> wasn't that solved by switching to lxc?
1276 2013-05-07 14:03:32 davout has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1277 2013-05-07 14:03:34 <sipa> reconfiguring the kernel? :o
1278 2013-05-07 14:03:43 <sipa> i haven't touched a kernel config in years
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1281 2013-05-07 14:04:50 <wumpus> but yeah, I've also never had to chaange kernel configuration for it, but it did require some virtualization support in the GPU, which complicated it
1282 2013-05-07 14:04:55 <wumpus> CPU*
1283 2013-05-07 14:05:15 <sipa> virtualizing a GPU would be cool!
1284 2013-05-07 14:05:35 <wumpus> yes that would be interesting
1285 2013-05-07 14:05:43 <sipa> wumpus: it works without KVM actually, but extremely slow :)
1286 2013-05-07 14:06:07 <gavinandresen> gitian in VirtualBox works pretty well. And we could distribute pre-made VirtualBox vm machines that have already compiled the binaries and are all ready to re-compile....
1287 2013-05-07 14:06:12 <wumpus> hmm yes in theory, I remember "unusably slow" :)
1288 2013-05-07 14:06:47 <sipa> gavinandresen: how about putting the bitcoin binaries in it too?
1289 2013-05-07 14:06:51 <sipa> even faster
1290 2013-05-07 14:07:00 <Scrat> you can export single file Vbox machines
1291 2013-05-07 14:07:40 <gavinandresen> sipa: sure, if you're not gitian-building to verify but just to dip your toes into compiling bitcoin executables for yourself that'd be usefl
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1293 2013-05-07 14:08:02 <sipa> gavinandresen: right, for producing windows binaries it's actually an easy build environment
1294 2013-05-07 14:08:07 <gavinandresen> testnet-in-a-VirtualBox-VM-box would be spiffy....
1295 2013-05-07 14:08:15 <sipa> if you don't need the trustlessness
1296 2013-05-07 14:08:20 <wumpus> sipa: yes it would be easier than setting up a mingw environment
1297 2013-05-07 14:08:26 <TD> gavinandresen: how do you feel about a patch set that moves per-network tweakable params into a CChainParams class?
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1299 2013-05-07 14:08:49 <gavinandresen> TD: to make it easier for alt-chain creators? :)
1300 2013-05-07 14:08:52 <wumpus> nooo don't make it even easier
1301 2013-05-07 14:09:02 <wumpus> :P
1302 2013-05-07 14:09:02 <TD> no, to make it easier to merge matts regtest mode
1303 2013-05-07 14:09:09 <TD> the one that has min difficulty so you can make a new block in a second or two
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1305 2013-05-07 14:09:17 <gavinandresen> TD: I know. I think matt's regtest mode should be merged into mainline.
1306 2013-05-07 14:09:27 <wumpus> someone should create an random altcoin generator
1307 2013-05-07 14:09:42 <sipa> gavinandresen: as a #ifdef, or as a -enable-regtest?
1308 2013-05-07 14:09:44 <gavinandresen> TD: ⦠if it makes the most sense to create a CChainParams class to do that, then OK
1309 2013-05-07 14:09:49 <TD> ok
1310 2013-05-07 14:09:54 <wumpus> generate a random name, random network rules, and post a topic to bitcointalk
1311 2013-05-07 14:09:59 <wumpus> oh and premine of course
1312 2013-05-07 14:10:08 <TD> i think it's a reasonable cleanup anyway, instead of having if (fTestnet) everywhere.
1313 2013-05-07 14:10:09 <gavinandresen> sipa: shouild be -enable-regtest run-time, like -testnet
1314 2013-05-07 14:10:15 <TD> yeah
1315 2013-05-07 14:10:21 <TD> it's useful for app development too
1316 2013-05-07 14:10:33 <gavinandresen> (ENOCARE on what the actual flag is called)
1317 2013-05-07 14:10:38 <TD> having to wait for a block when working on apps is painful. bitcoind -regtest + a local block explorer is the business
1318 2013-05-07 14:11:18 <TD> also it turns out some people can't compile bitcoind. it's too hard for them. i want those people to be able to run bitcoinj regression tests as well in case they change things.
1319 2013-05-07 14:11:19 <wumpus> TD: hm yes the fTestnet everywhere is a good point
1320 2013-05-07 14:11:33 <TD> (and be able to easily develop apps without waiting for blocks, etc)
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1322 2013-05-07 14:11:54 <BlueMatt-Work> re: post-chain-fork-things-todo: "Perhaps trigger an alert if there is a long enough side chain detected": anyone written code for this, or should I whip up some flag to put in getinfo really quick?
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1325 2013-05-07 14:13:06 <TD> i didn't hear of anyone doing code for that
1326 2013-05-07 14:13:23 <sipa> gavinandresen: how close are we to doing a 0.8.2?
1327 2013-05-07 14:13:28 <TD> it should probably be the same mechanism as how alerts are returned in the API though
1328 2013-05-07 14:13:38 <TD> otherwise app developers won't think to check for it, as that's a condition they'll never test
1329 2013-05-07 14:13:47 <sipa> there are the assert failure things still that are not explained, and the empty CTransactions being relayed
1330 2013-05-07 14:13:54 <BlueMatt-Work> fair enough, first get a flag, then worry about nice api for it :)
1331 2013-05-07 14:13:55 <sipa> but apart from that, anything serious left?
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1334 2013-05-07 14:14:15 <TD> i thought alerts already surfaced via RPC responses?
1335 2013-05-07 14:14:33 <BlueMatt-Work> sipa: I tried to just run the code in #1961 to duplicate, but it didnt die, so its some system/config-specific thing
1336 2013-05-07 14:14:41 nus- has joined
1337 2013-05-07 14:14:56 <sipa> BlueMatt-Work: well, it seems gavinandresen is working on replacing that with asio timers anyway, which is hopefully more stable
1338 2013-05-07 14:15:07 <kjj> hmm. we have triggers for external processes on blocks and wallet transactions. how about changes in status (alerts, warnings, etc) ?
1339 2013-05-07 14:15:50 nus- has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1343 2013-05-07 14:18:24 <wumpus> BlueMatt-Work: I've also never succeeded in crashing it that way
1344 2013-05-07 14:18:57 t7` is now known as t7
1345 2013-05-07 14:19:01 * BlueMatt-Work -> or Ill just go sit in meetings all day
1346 2013-05-07 14:19:34 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt-Work : ooh! meetings!
1347 2013-05-07 14:20:07 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt-Work: I am changing the walletpassphrase code to use ASIO deadline_timers instead of spawining threads
1348 2013-05-07 14:20:32 <gavinandresen> kjj: -alertnotify is a new command-line arg
1349 2013-05-07 14:21:15 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt-Work and anybody else interested: I'm also planning on changing the semantics of walletpassphrase in a backwards-compatible way
1350 2013-05-07 14:21:31 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1351 2013-05-07 14:21:35 <kjj> oh, cool. I'm a bit behind on current development
1352 2013-05-07 14:22:01 <gavinandresen> Change will be: call walletpassphrase twice and (assuming you give the correct passphrase both times) the last timeout will win.
1353 2013-05-07 14:22:23 Duly has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1354 2013-05-07 14:22:44 <sipa> gavinandresen: sounds good
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1363 2013-05-07 14:28:32 <wumpus> gavinandresen: yes please
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1365 2013-05-07 14:29:13 <michagogo> gavinandresen: "last timeout"?
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1369 2013-05-07 14:29:33 * michagogo doesn't understand what gavinandresen means about changing the semantics
1370 2013-05-07 14:30:25 <TD> michagogo: "semantics" just means "behaviour" in this case
1371 2013-05-07 14:30:35 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt-Work : you available for a few minutes to help me understand CWallet::Unlock a little better ?
1372 2013-05-07 14:30:51 <TD> he's not at his desk
1373 2013-05-07 14:31:07 <gavinandresen> bah. Anybody know if we ever have wallets with multiple master keys in them?
1374 2013-05-07 14:31:15 <TD> he'll be back in about 20 minutes
1375 2013-05-07 14:31:18 <sipa> gavinandresen: not supported, afaik
1376 2013-05-07 14:31:36 <sipa> gavinandresen: some of the low-level crypto code may support that, but the wallet code doesn't
1377 2013-05-07 14:31:51 <gavinandresen> sipa: ok, that makes sense then.
1378 2013-05-07 14:32:04 <sipa> the file format was designed to support that, but it's not implemented at the application level
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1380 2013-05-07 14:34:29 <alaricsp> Software I write is FULL of that kind of thing
1381 2013-05-07 14:34:36 <BlueMatt-Work> gavinandresen: last timeout as in further from now or last-specified?
1382 2013-05-07 14:34:41 <alaricsp> "I implemented this really cool underlying abstraction, but writing a UI for it gave me a headache"
1383 2013-05-07 14:35:29 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt-Work: last timeout as in last-specified. So walletpasshrase blah 100 followed 10 seconds later by walletpassphrase blah 11 would be "lock 11 seconds from now"
1384 2013-05-07 14:35:47 <gavinandresen> ⦠and walletpassphrase blah 0 would be the same as lockwallet
1385 2013-05-07 14:35:54 <sipa> gavinandresen: oh, hmmm...
1386 2013-05-07 14:36:22 <michagogo> gavinandresen: Why not just walletpassphrase with no args to lock?
1387 2013-05-07 14:36:35 <BlueMatt-Work> ok, so opposite of now...not a big fan of that idea
1388 2013-05-07 14:36:36 <michagogo> Or walletpassphrase incorrectpassphrasehere
1389 2013-05-07 14:36:56 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt-Work: what do you mean opposite? Now if you do walletpassphrase twice in a row you get an error
1390 2013-05-07 14:36:58 <BlueMatt-Work> gavinandresen: ie program1 runs and needs wallet for 100 seconds, program2 only needs for 10 but starts a minute later...
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1392 2013-05-07 14:37:57 <BlueMatt-Work> gavinandresen: wait...wtf?it didnt used to be that way (the code in ThreadCleanWalletPassphrase is designed to handle the case)
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1394 2013-05-07 14:38:16 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt-Work: you get an error "wallet already unlocked" with current git-HEAD code
1395 2013-05-07 14:38:25 <BlueMatt-Work> (and imho it should be furthest from now specified is the new unlock time)
1396 2013-05-07 14:38:44 <BlueMatt-Work> gavinandresen: yes, either it was changed or I am oblivious when I code (probably the second)
1397 2013-05-07 14:38:56 <BlueMatt-Work> (or I changed my mind before merge)
1398 2013-05-07 14:40:01 <gavinandresen> I think not taking the last lock-time set violates the way most programmers will assume it would work
1399 2013-05-07 14:40:19 <gavinandresen> e.g. "do what I said last" is the way computers usually work
1400 2013-05-07 14:40:39 <wumpus> yes, and it also allows extending the lock time safely
1401 2013-05-07 14:41:03 <gavinandresen> right, you can always figure out when it is scheduled to be unlocked with getinfo.unlocked_until
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1403 2013-05-07 14:42:30 <BlueMatt-Work> I disagree, the way I would expect is the furthest-out time (for the concurrency reasons)
1404 2013-05-07 14:42:42 <BlueMatt-Work> at least concurrency when multiple programs need different lock times
1405 2013-05-07 14:43:21 <TD> is there some magic to make test_bitcoin print stuff inside error() statements? it looks like it's swallowing stderr
1406 2013-05-07 14:43:41 <sipa> -logtoconsole ?
1407 2013-05-07 14:43:47 <BlueMatt-Work> there is some fPrintTo something in the test_bitcoin.cpp IIRC
1408 2013-05-07 14:43:52 <BlueMatt-Work> or that
1409 2013-05-07 14:43:55 <gavinandresen> TD: test_bitcoin.cpp TestingSetup()
1410 2013-05-07 14:44:08 <gavinandresen> ⦠sets fPrintToDebugger
1411 2013-05-07 14:44:53 <TD> sipa: that's not it
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1413 2013-05-07 14:45:11 <gavinandresen> I never figured out how to pass command-line arguments to the boost test runner
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1415 2013-05-07 14:46:30 <gavinandresen> Anybody else have opinions on walletpassphrase behavior? I feel strongly that walletpassphrase <foo> 1 should ALWAYS mean "lock the wallet 1 second from now" regardless of what was set before.
1416 2013-05-07 14:46:36 <TD> yeah, adding fPrintToConsole = true; manually works
1417 2013-05-07 14:46:38 <TD> command line flag doesn't
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1419 2013-05-07 14:52:17 <sipa> gavinandresen: i think that's acceptable; BlueMatt-Work: for concurrent use you probably want an explicit unlock-for-a-long-time and explicit lock afterwards anyway
1420 2013-05-07 14:52:23 <sipa> gavinandresen: both are acceptable to me
1421 2013-05-07 14:52:39 <wumpus> furthest out time as BlueMatt-Work says is fine with me too, anything is better than the current behaviour of failing unlocking when there is already an unlock in progress
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1424 2013-05-07 14:53:56 <BlueMatt-Work> sipa: yea, its probably not the best design, but if you want two systems completely separate accessing the same wallet...anyway, its no big deal either way, however its already written for the longest-out time
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1426 2013-05-07 14:57:06 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt-Work: not any more....
1427 2013-05-07 14:57:15 <BlueMatt-Work> heh, well ok
1428 2013-05-07 14:57:28 <gavinandresen> (simplifying the code is the other reason I want the "do what I said last" behavior)
1429 2013-05-07 14:58:30 <BlueMatt-Work> well, it was all dead code previously anyway
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1442 2013-05-07 15:15:15 <melvster> david dahl just pointed me to : http://polycrypt.net/
1443 2013-05-07 15:15:22 richcollins has joined
1444 2013-05-07 15:15:43 <melvster> The following algorithms in the WebCrypto specification are not currently supported: RSA-OAEP, RSA-PSS, ECDSA, ECDH, Diffie-Hellman, Concat KDF
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1448 2013-05-07 15:19:24 <BlueMatt-Work> anyone have a link to gmaxwell's fork calculator thinggy?
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1453 2013-05-07 15:24:07 <ali1234> in the irc peer finding code, why do some nodes have a name like x<numbers> and others are u<letters>?
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1461 2013-05-07 15:28:06 <gaantr2> TD: I have noticed that PingService stops working if you run it for a couple of days. What do you think might be causing that?
1462 2013-05-07 15:28:13 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt-Work: you mean the satoshi calculator from the paper? :P https://people.xiph.org/~greg/attack_success.html
1463 2013-05-07 15:28:18 seeingidog__ has joined
1464 2013-05-07 15:28:18 <TD> gaantr2: are you using the latest code from git master?
1465 2013-05-07 15:28:24 <gaantr2> 0.9
1466 2013-05-07 15:28:41 bitit has joined
1467 2013-05-07 15:28:50 <gaantr2> could shutting down the process incorrectly cause the wallet to become corrupted?
1468 2013-05-07 15:28:54 <BlueMatt-Work> gmaxwell: yes, but it doesnt do what I remembered, oh well, Ill do it myself
1469 2013-05-07 15:29:01 <TD> ok. there is a known deadlock that can occur rarely due to netty3 being kind of poor. the fix is a port to netty4, but i haven't done it yet. it is probably that, though you could tell by dumping the thread stacks and checking
1470 2013-05-07 15:29:16 <gaantr2> TD: Should I recreate a fresh wallet whenever I restart the system?
1471 2013-05-07 15:29:18 <TD> corrupted? no it shouldn't. it might get out of sync with the chain file.
1472 2013-05-07 15:29:27 <gaantr2> ic
1473 2013-05-07 15:29:31 <TD> (if you're using autosaving with a delay)
1474 2013-05-07 15:29:40 <TD> i don't know what system you're talking about
1475 2013-05-07 15:29:43 <TD> so i cannot answer that question
1476 2013-05-07 15:30:27 <independent> is it normal ? I started mining yesterday and I didnt get any bitcoins wallet is 0.00
1477 2013-05-07 15:30:30 <gaantr2> TD: It is okay - I'll work on this more - I'll contact you later when I have something more precise to ask. Perhaps I could offer you some consulting fees or something.
1478 2013-05-07 15:31:42 <TD> sorry, i don't really have time to do commercial consulting for bitcoinj. if you want to be able to hire someone to work on a java bitcoin implementation then graus supernode might be what you need
1479 2013-05-07 15:32:35 systemParanoid has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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1483 2013-05-07 15:33:00 <independent> is it normal ? I started mining yesterday and I didnt get any bitcoins wallet is 0.00
1484 2013-05-07 15:33:02 <michagogo> independent: Are you solomining?
1485 2013-05-07 15:33:05 <michagogo> Or mining in a pool?
1486 2013-05-07 15:33:43 <grau> TD: Thanks TD.
1487 2013-05-07 15:33:46 <independent> im in deepbit pool
1488 2013-05-07 15:34:15 <BlueMatt-Work> #bitcoin-mining
1489 2013-05-07 15:35:18 Julius129 has joined
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1491 2013-05-07 15:36:44 <gaantr2> great, thanks
1492 2013-05-07 15:37:44 <Julius129> anyone have advice for running bitcoind in unix environment
1493 2013-05-07 15:37:56 <Julius129> should i create a seperate user for it?
1494 2013-05-07 15:38:43 <Julius129> and restrict access to the user's home directory?
1495 2013-05-07 15:40:02 saracen has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1497 2013-05-07 15:42:18 Lis has joined
1498 2013-05-07 15:42:20 <independent> I didnt get any answer
1499 2013-05-07 15:42:34 <BlueMatt-Work> independent: go to #bitcoin-mining
1500 2013-05-07 15:43:02 saulimus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1502 2013-05-07 15:43:29 <sydna> is there a simple way of clearing the cache of TXs in bitcoin-qt?
1503 2013-05-07 15:43:51 <sydna> say I sent a TX that got rejected, now my balance shown is slightly wrong
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1509 2013-05-07 15:44:23 <Julius129> why would the tx be rejected 0_o
1510 2013-05-07 15:45:10 <sydna> I wasn't paying attention and double spent
1511 2013-05-07 15:45:34 independent has left ()
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1515 2013-05-07 15:46:55 <Julius129> bitcoin development makes me feel like a 12 yr old kid again
1516 2013-05-07 15:47:29 systemParanoid has joined
1517 2013-05-07 15:47:38 <sydna> makes me frequently say stupid things apparently
1518 2013-05-07 15:47:58 <sydna> I know just enough about it to break things
1519 2013-05-07 15:48:05 <Julius129> that is the fun part
1520 2013-05-07 15:48:20 <Julius129> i get excited to wake up in the morning and play with this
1521 2013-05-07 15:48:30 ido has joined
1522 2013-05-07 15:48:44 <Julius129> before i found bitcoin, i thought i would never get excited by any SW development/hacking
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1528 2013-05-07 15:58:30 * jgarzik wakes up, and wonders if any drama has happened since sleep
1529 2013-05-07 15:58:42 <BlueMatt-Work> always
1530 2013-05-07 15:59:21 CaptainBlaze has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1531 2013-05-07 16:00:42 <sipa> jgarzik: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=316AzLYfAzw
1532 2013-05-07 16:04:05 <TD> haha
1533 2013-05-07 16:04:07 <TD> great vid
1534 2013-05-07 16:04:13 <wumpus> no new drama afaik
1535 2013-05-07 16:04:19 Nash has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1536 2013-05-07 16:04:49 <TD> jgarzik: the illuminati announced they were going to tax and regulate bitcoin block sizes in order to ensure a smooth takeover by the UN
1537 2013-05-07 16:05:10 <gmaxwell> TD: but they already finished that last week!
1538 2013-05-07 16:05:44 <gavinandresen> shhh, we're not supposed to talk about that.
1539 2013-05-07 16:05:48 <TD> bitcoin always moves faster than i think it will
1540 2013-05-07 16:06:11 <TD> gavinandresen: oops, you're right. i keep forgetting that core developers are all in on it, because we work for the CIA
1541 2013-05-07 16:06:37 <gavinandresen> BITCOIN THREE THIS IS NOT A SECURE CHANNEL
1542 2013-05-07 16:07:24 seeingidog__ has joined
1543 2013-05-07 16:08:10 <pjorrit> is somebody shouting in here?
1544 2013-05-07 16:08:39 <gavinandresen> no, we're being very quiet now.
1545 2013-05-07 16:08:44 <gavinandresen> nothing to see, move on...
1546 2013-05-07 16:09:14 <cjd_> =)
1547 2013-05-07 16:09:40 chmod755 has joined
1548 2013-05-07 16:09:49 <cjd_> <3 conspiracy theorys, the best ones are the ones which are so plausible you can convince yourself
1549 2013-05-07 16:09:54 <cjd_> *ies
1550 2013-05-07 16:10:49 <chmod755> coinspiracies?
1551 2013-05-07 16:11:42 eqolo has joined
1552 2013-05-07 16:11:48 <sydna> here's one, that the US government is recording all communications in the US
1553 2013-05-07 16:12:27 <cjd_> boring
1554 2013-05-07 16:12:43 panzerfaust has joined
1555 2013-05-07 16:13:27 XRPTrader2 has joined
1556 2013-05-07 16:13:38 <sydna> hum, one of the members of HTP turned out to be a CIA mole. the group hacked a bunch of domain registers, linode and a root CA just for funs.
1557 2013-05-07 16:13:47 sud3n has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1558 2013-05-07 16:13:57 <eqolo> One wrote that he sent the money to my bitcoin address. But there is not records in bitcoin-qt and it shows no transaction on the block chain. How long time does it usually take before it comes up, it is not immediately? Could it be that he is lying about it?
1559 2013-05-07 16:14:03 <SomeoneWeird> sydna, source?
1560 2013-05-07 16:14:10 <sydna> SomeoneWeird: http://straylig.ht/zines/HTP5/0x02_Linode.txt
1561 2013-05-07 16:14:30 <SomeoneWeird> re: cia mole
1562 2013-05-07 16:14:32 panzer has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1563 2013-05-07 16:14:42 <TD> hm, ICS+ now dominates Gingerbread. that's cool. i hadn't seen that before.
1564 2013-05-07 16:14:42 <sydna> bout half way down that page
1565 2013-05-07 16:14:56 <sydna> "There was one more loose end to tie. We identified which users on HTP were
1566 2013-05-07 16:14:56 <sydna> involved with the FBI, and promptly gained access to one of their cams. Sure
1567 2013-05-07 16:14:57 <sydna> enough, there was a handler standing behind him, monitoring his involvement
1568 2013-05-07 16:14:58 <sydna> in HTP (hi!). "
1569 2013-05-07 16:15:13 <SomeoneWeird> heh
1570 2013-05-07 16:15:16 <SomeoneWeird> so not 'cia'
1571 2013-05-07 16:15:29 <sydna> got my alphabet soup mixed up
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1573 2013-05-07 16:16:09 <cjd_> FBI moles are involved in everything
1574 2013-05-07 16:16:25 <sydna> surprised they didn't have fun with bitcoin actually, they probably had access to the bitcoin.org domain
1575 2013-05-07 16:16:48 <cjd_> Because the NSA won't give them clearence to use the LawfullIntercept tech built in to every Intel ethernet card lol
1576 2013-05-07 16:17:18 <cjd_> don't need to worry about a wallet stealer when your "low price gigabit ethernet" can DMA it right off of ram
1577 2013-05-07 16:18:07 <sydna> recent intel CPUs have RNGs built in don't they? it'd be fun if they were in some way deterministic
1578 2013-05-07 16:18:18 <cjd_> ya
1579 2013-05-07 16:18:20 Belxjander has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1580 2013-05-07 16:18:29 <cjd_> like as if anyone would be stupid enough to use that
1581 2013-05-07 16:18:36 <cjd_> obvious bait is obvious
1582 2013-05-07 16:18:56 <SomeoneWeird> lmao yesh
1583 2013-05-07 16:19:19 <jgarzik> ...or a hard drive, that behaves differently when it sees a special block of data written to it
1584 2013-05-07 16:19:34 <cjd_> yeap
1585 2013-05-07 16:19:35 <jgarzik> i.e. visit a web page, and suddenly your hard drive behaving differently
1586 2013-05-07 16:19:45 <cjd_> or the nVidia pwnd.gif
1587 2013-05-07 16:19:49 porquilho has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1588 2013-05-07 16:20:37 <cjd_> I heard it's actually just a pattern of colored dots so you can put it into any image or video and it resists compression/resizing
1589 2013-05-07 16:21:03 <sydna> haha, like laser printers. they make little patterns of yellow dots with the serial number of the printer and current time
1590 2013-05-07 16:21:15 <sydna> you can see them in most print jobs if you look carefully
1591 2013-05-07 16:21:16 <petertodd> sydna: no-one has taken up gmaxwell's offer to mine a block on his avalon with a significantly higher difficulty and timestamp in the future...
1592 2013-05-07 16:21:19 Nash has joined
1593 2013-05-07 16:21:37 <cjd_> sydna: that's not even taking into account the catch_on_fire postscript instruction ;)
1594 2013-05-07 16:21:55 <sydna> cjd_: but lp0 is already on fire.
1595 2013-05-07 16:22:11 <cjd_> xD
1596 2013-05-07 16:23:07 <cjd_> so how about that buffer thing in litecoin?
1597 2013-05-07 16:23:52 <cjd_> ya know the one with the scrypt 'scratch space' buffer which is convienently on the stack
1598 2013-05-07 16:24:34 <sydna> implying foul play on their part?
1599 2013-05-07 16:24:52 <cjd_> I would never
1600 2013-05-07 16:25:35 <cjd_> brb SIGSEGrootkit
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1608 2013-05-07 16:40:47 <eqolo> How do we know that two transactions of the same amount, are not a double spent transaction?
1609 2013-05-07 16:43:02 <Julius129> good question
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1613 2013-05-07 16:47:04 <XertroV> If anyone is curious I've published a plan for a P2P Trustless Cryptocoin Exchange here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=198032.0
1614 2013-05-07 16:47:19 <XertroV> I'd appreciate any comments or criticisms you have.
1615 2013-05-07 16:47:44 <cjd_> y u publish on bitcointroll?
1616 2013-05-07 16:48:11 <XertroV> Where would you like me to?
1617 2013-05-07 16:48:18 richcollins has joined
1618 2013-05-07 16:48:21 <cjd_> anywhere is good
1619 2013-05-07 16:48:34 <cjd_> reddit/r/bitcoin, the mailing list, anywhere
1620 2013-05-07 16:48:34 rcknight has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1621 2013-05-07 16:48:35 <XertroV> I've put a post up on reddit, but it's above the 10,000 char maximum, and posted it first on my blog (of one post, now)
1622 2013-05-07 16:48:43 <cjd_> except that hole in the ground
1623 2013-05-07 16:48:47 XRPTrader2 has quit (Quit: XRPTrader2)
1624 2013-05-07 16:49:08 darenthis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1625 2013-05-07 16:49:18 <XertroV> I thought about emailing the mailing list, but it feels a little more imposing than leaving a copy on the forums, if it's good then people will find it anyway, right?
1626 2013-05-07 16:49:28 sydna has quit (Quit: sydna)
1627 2013-05-07 16:49:39 <cjd_> yeah
1628 2013-05-07 16:50:02 <cjd_> the thing about the forum is all sane communications are lost in the midst of poopoopoopoopoop and wnatnot
1629 2013-05-07 16:50:16 <ali1234> the 5 post rule makes it worse imo
1630 2013-05-07 16:50:28 <ali1234> because someone with something intelligent to say one time is not allowed
1631 2013-05-07 16:50:37 <ali1234> but determined trolls and idiots can easily get through
1632 2013-05-07 16:50:56 <XertroV> Despite the cultural foundations of the forums, a lot happens there, and they're not a bad place for discussion.
1633 2013-05-07 16:51:06 <cjd_> I briefly thought about writing a trolling script
1634 2013-05-07 16:51:18 <cjd_> which scrapes one forum and posts everything on another one
1635 2013-05-07 16:51:31 hnz_ has joined
1636 2013-05-07 16:51:31 Nash has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1637 2013-05-07 16:51:36 <cjd_> after running it through a plagurism "paraphraser" so it doesn't match on google
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1648 2013-05-07 16:59:16 LorenzoMoney has joined
1649 2013-05-07 16:59:53 <LorenzoMoney> are you thinking that the address can be derived from the signature and message? LOL
1650 2013-05-07 17:00:03 <LorenzoMoney> OK
1651 2013-05-07 17:01:04 <sipa> LorenzoMoney: yes
1652 2013-05-07 17:01:38 darenthis has joined
1653 2013-05-07 17:02:19 PartTimeLegend has joined
1654 2013-05-07 17:02:25 <sipa> LorenzoMoney: using a technique called ECDSA public key recovery
1655 2013-05-07 17:02:27 BlueMatt-Work has left ("-> home")
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1661 2013-05-07 17:06:32 <LorenzoMoney> sipa: Ok, thanks will look that up
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1696 2013-05-07 17:28:16 <skinnkavaj> How far away are we from having to worry about Quantum computing? What is the most vulnerable algorithm in Bitcoin to QC? When should Bitcoin be quantum-proofed?
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1700 2013-05-07 17:30:58 <Belxjander> skinnkavaj: then make a new branch on top of the Quantum computing cyphers and relocate the blockchain accordingly
1701 2013-05-07 17:31:22 <Scrat> the most vulnerable part is ECDSA, hashing is affected but it's only a quadratic improvement
1702 2013-05-07 17:31:42 <etotheipi_> sipa, is there any kind of write-iterator in LevelDB? It doesn't look like it... Essentially, I want to iterate through the DB and make updates to the data under the iterator as needed... it looks like i just have to use Put()
1703 2013-05-07 17:31:54 <helo> skinnkavaj: all of the bitcoin sitting at addresses without known public keys is pretty safe from ecdsa
1704 2013-05-07 17:32:42 <helo> skinnkavaj: qc-safe signing could be used, but it would make transactions larger
1705 2013-05-07 17:32:57 <Scrat> bitcoin will be quantum proofed when someone can actually demonstrate that having hundrends of qubits working is attainable
1706 2013-05-07 17:33:14 cjd has joined
1707 2013-05-07 17:33:25 <helo> skinnkavaj: and quantum computers of useful scale are likely decades away
1708 2013-05-07 17:34:14 TD is now known as TD[gone]
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1714 2013-05-07 17:37:00 <gavinandresen> I think practical quantum computing will be "just 10 or 15 years away" for at least the next 20 years.
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1718 2013-05-07 17:40:36 <phantomcircuit> also i would like to point out that it's very likely their star topology qc network is actually p2p with classical switches
1719 2013-05-07 17:41:47 <Julius129> somehow i dont see Quantum pc's mass produced in china
1720 2013-05-07 17:41:57 <Julius129> ever
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1724 2013-05-07 17:44:12 <cjd> I seem to recall a paper where they threw water on the whole shor attack idea in general
1725 2013-05-07 17:46:15 <Julius129> is there plans to implement ipv6 in bitcoin and teredo support (like utorrent)
1726 2013-05-07 17:46:15 <cjd> said it was very likely the example quantum computers they built were not actually experiencing quantum entanglment
1727 2013-05-07 17:47:48 <eqolo> How do we know that two transactions of the same amount, are not a double spent transaction?
1728 2013-05-07 17:47:54 jeewee has joined
1729 2013-05-07 17:48:02 FredEE has joined
1730 2013-05-07 17:48:06 <cjd> eqolo: because they're getting the money from different places?
1731 2013-05-07 17:48:24 <eqolo> cjd: no, same address same from same sender
1732 2013-05-07 17:49:01 <cjd> every transaction links to a prior transaction, if the prior tx is the same then it's a double spane
1733 2013-05-07 17:49:07 sud3n has joined
1734 2013-05-07 17:49:48 <eqolo> cjd: ok thanks
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1738 2013-05-07 17:50:24 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: What are you talking about? I have one here right next to my fusion reactor and flying car!
1739 2013-05-07 17:51:04 <sipa> etotheipi_: LevelDB only has a batch-write
1740 2013-05-07 17:51:23 <sipa> etotheipi_: by design; it never overwrites live data, so a write-iterator makes no sense
1741 2013-05-07 17:51:26 Ahimoth has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1742 2013-05-07 17:51:38 <sipa> etotheipi_: it's just written to a log as an update record, which gets processed in the background
1743 2013-05-07 17:53:13 <sipa> Julius129: ipv6 works fine in bitcoin
1744 2013-05-07 17:53:37 Ahimoth has joined
1745 2013-05-07 17:54:25 <ThomasV> etotheipi_: are you doing this in python?
1746 2013-05-07 17:54:29 <etotheipi_> sipa, good to know... thanks
1747 2013-05-07 17:54:44 Nash has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1748 2013-05-07 17:54:49 <etotheipi_> ThomasV, I'm not
1749 2013-05-07 17:54:57 <etotheipi_> all my LevelDB operations are happening on the C++ side
1750 2013-05-07 17:55:32 <Julius129> sipa, okay.... thats good.. But teredo?
1751 2013-05-07 17:55:37 <ThomasV> etotheipi_: I started working on it, with plyvel (python frontend for leveldb, that supports iterators)
1752 2013-05-07 17:55:58 <ThomasV> for the moment I just did a radix tree
1753 2013-05-07 17:56:23 <etotheipi_> ThomasV, cool. I would love to work on that right now... but I'm glad someone is
1754 2013-05-07 17:56:26 g0thX has joined
1755 2013-05-07 17:56:27 <etotheipi_> you can debug it for me/us
1756 2013-05-07 17:56:28 <etotheipi_> :)
1757 2013-05-07 17:56:52 <ThomasV> etotheipi_: we should try to arrive at the same root hash :)
1758 2013-05-07 17:56:54 <sipa> Julius129: teredo is ipv6
1759 2013-05-07 17:57:08 <sipa> Julius129: doesn't matter from the application point of view how it is established
1760 2013-05-07 17:57:12 tonikt has joined
1761 2013-05-07 17:57:14 <etotheipi_> ThomasV, agreed... but I'm a bit swamped at the moment... it might be a couple months before I can actually focus on this
1762 2013-05-07 17:57:20 <ThomasV> ok
1763 2013-05-07 17:57:37 <sipa> etotheipi_, ThomasV: just to ask your confirmation: are you ok with the current state of BIP32?
1764 2013-05-07 17:57:57 sud3n has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1765 2013-05-07 17:58:01 <ThomasV> sipa: I did not look recently.
1766 2013-05-07 17:58:07 <ThomasV> what changed?
1767 2013-05-07 17:58:08 <etotheipi_> sipa, have you changed it since a couple weeks ago? I haven't looked at it recently either?
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1770 2013-05-07 17:58:32 <etotheipi_> the thanke-iddo debate got boring, so I stopped paying attention :)
1771 2013-05-07 17:58:43 <ThomasV> last time I checked, you wanted to replace some multiplicatioin with addition
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1775 2013-05-07 17:58:52 <ThomasV> .. which will be faster
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1777 2013-05-07 17:59:02 <gmaxwell> Sipa changed it to make it also include the non-homomorphic derrivation.
1778 2013-05-07 17:59:12 <tonikt> hi guys. can you please refer me to any source that describes which of the 38 bytes returned by dumpprivkey RPC is the actual key?
1779 2013-05-07 17:59:25 <ThomasV> ok, so I guess we'll need new test vectors
1780 2013-05-07 18:01:42 dino_ has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
1781 2013-05-07 18:01:42 <sipa> ThomasV, etotheipi_: there's a changelist :)
1782 2013-05-07 18:01:48 <ThomasV> hmm, indeed the bip 32 page changed :)
1783 2013-05-07 18:01:55 mrkent has joined
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1785 2013-05-07 18:02:27 <ThomasV> sipa: sorry, no time to look at it now, I have to go
1786 2013-05-07 18:02:29 <ThomasV> bbl
1787 2013-05-07 18:02:45 <sipa> tonikt: <4 version byte> <32 key bytes> <optional: 1 compression indicator byte> <4 checksum bytes>
1788 2013-05-07 18:03:01 <sipa> eh
1789 2013-05-07 18:03:07 <sipa> <1 version byte> <32 key bytes> <optional: 1 compression indicator byte> <4 checksum bytes>
1790 2013-05-07 18:03:21 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
1791 2013-05-07 18:03:30 <etotheipi_> sipa, so the "private derivation for i>= 0x80000000" is the type-1 derivation?
1792 2013-05-07 18:03:36 <sipa> etotheipi_: indeed
1793 2013-05-07 18:04:25 <tonikt> sipa: thx! but the version - it's a different one than for public keys, isn't it?
1794 2013-05-07 18:04:36 phpwn has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1795 2013-05-07 18:04:39 <etotheipi_> sipa, so is it just 0x80000000 + childIndex? or is it int32_t, -childIndex?
1796 2013-05-07 18:04:39 <sipa> tonikt: 0x80 for mainnet
1797 2013-05-07 18:04:43 <tonikt> looks like 0xef for testnet and 0x80 for
1798 2013-05-07 18:04:45 <tonikt> yeah
1799 2013-05-07 18:04:53 <grau> sipa: I created unit tests in JSON format for BIP32 here https://github.com/bitsofproof/supernode/blob/master/api/src/test/resources/ExtendedKey.json
1800 2013-05-07 18:05:06 <grau> sipa: it would be nice to have "official" vectors
1801 2013-05-07 18:05:08 <grau> from you
1802 2013-05-07 18:05:19 <tonikt> ok, I think I know all already. thanks again, man! for always being so helpful
1803 2013-05-07 18:05:28 <etotheipi_> sipa, nevermind... I forgot I can read
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1805 2013-05-07 18:06:07 <sipa> grau: yes, i hope i can declare bip32 "final" at the conference
1806 2013-05-07 18:06:57 <sipa> grau: there's still a discussion on the forum going on with iddo and thanke, who brought up very good arguments, but i think it's been discussed enough
1807 2013-05-07 18:08:17 <etotheipi_> sipa, why not just declare the private-key prefix byte to be... the same one as used in other serializations (i.e. 0x80 for main-net, etc)
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1810 2013-05-07 18:08:31 <sipa> etotheipi_: ?
1811 2013-05-07 18:08:48 <sipa> etotheipi_: where?
1812 2013-05-07 18:08:50 <etotheipi_> sipa, it's a minor thing, but you say we pad the private key with a 0x00 byte
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1814 2013-05-07 18:09:25 <sipa> well bip32 defines a new serialization anyway
1815 2013-05-07 18:09:51 <jspilman> 0x00 is good. byte[33] in either case, and just alter the index you copy the data into
1816 2013-05-07 18:09:55 <sipa> but i don't really care about what number is used, except it's not a network specific one but a technology-specific one (it contains compressedness for pubkeys for example)
1817 2013-05-07 18:10:00 <sipa> byte shedding, imho
1818 2013-05-07 18:10:01 <jspilman> sorry to interject :-)
1819 2013-05-07 18:10:08 Nash has joined
1820 2013-05-07 18:10:19 <sipa> lol
1821 2013-05-07 18:10:23 <sipa> i mean bike shedding
1822 2013-05-07 18:10:32 <sipa> i swear that typo was unintentional
1823 2013-05-07 18:11:23 <sipa> jspilman, etotheipi_: the only reason not to use 0x00 is that the prefix 0x00 is in fact a valid serialized EC point (but not a valid public key for ECDSA)
1824 2013-05-07 18:11:31 <sipa> (the point at infinity)
1825 2013-05-07 18:11:43 <grau> etotheipi_: that would be double encoding the net since it is already in the leading bytes of the serialization
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1828 2013-05-07 18:12:18 <etotheipi_> grau, yeah, I asked that before I got to the part that mentioned network encoding... yay for reading
1829 2013-05-07 18:12:20 <sipa> jspilman: the index is the same... 1 byte header + byte data in both cases
1830 2013-05-07 18:12:37 <jspilman> it's just clarifying the input into a hash function - the 0x00 concat just keeps the byte arrays same size between the two derivations, which IMO is good attention to detail and makes the code cleaner
1831 2013-05-07 18:14:21 tonikt has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1832 2013-05-07 18:14:35 <jspilman> sipa: no, I mean in one case you have byte[32] privKey and in the other you have byte[33] pubKey which is going into the hash function. I like that hash data is 36 bytes either eay
1833 2013-05-07 18:14:38 <jspilman> *way
1834 2013-05-07 18:14:48 <sipa> right, indeed
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1839 2013-05-07 18:16:58 <flound1129> is there any work being done to make the bitcoin client faster/less of a memory hog?
1840 2013-05-07 18:17:10 <sipa> flound1129: yes
1841 2013-05-07 18:17:23 lis has joined
1842 2013-05-07 18:17:28 <gmaxwell> flound1129: The git version (soon to be 0.8.2) uses significantly less memory than 0.8.1
1843 2013-05-07 18:17:37 <flound1129> good
1844 2013-05-07 18:17:39 LainZ has joined
1845 2013-05-07 18:17:47 <flound1129> thing is killing my server :)
1846 2013-05-07 18:17:52 <jspilman> has anyone spent a bunch of test-net coins around a BIP32 wallet and published the tpub?
1847 2013-05-07 18:18:07 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1848 2013-05-07 18:19:23 lis has quit (Quit: bb)
1849 2013-05-07 18:19:38 <grau> jspilman: what would be the reason for such exercise?
1850 2013-05-07 18:19:53 <jspilman> system test
1851 2013-05-07 18:20:21 <grau> jspillman: its fairly easy to test constistency if key generation without spending
1852 2013-05-07 18:20:31 <jspilman> agreed
1853 2013-05-07 18:21:30 <grau> https://github.com/bitsofproof/supernode/blob/master/api/src/test/java/com/bitsofproof/supernode/api/ExtendedKeyTest.java
1854 2013-05-07 18:21:56 <grau> tests key generation with checking signatures
1855 2013-05-07 18:22:15 <grau> read-only vs. read-write wallet in a single unit test
1856 2013-05-07 18:23:17 <jspilman> and that test may pass while your implementation may still be incompatible
1857 2013-05-07 18:23:45 <grau> jspilman: yes, that is why I am eager to see sipa's vectors
1858 2013-05-07 18:24:17 <jspilman> but 'can you find the 10BTC in this tpub' is entertaining and useful
1859 2013-05-07 18:24:40 <grau> you convienced me. Let me do some testnet3 trades with BIP32
1860 2013-05-07 18:25:01 kadoban has joined
1861 2013-05-07 18:26:35 <cjd> gmaxwell: what was the big memory saving change from 8.1->8.2 ?
1862 2013-05-07 18:27:02 <cjd> inb4 "dust transactions are dropped shrinking mempool" xD
1863 2013-05-07 18:27:13 paracyst has joined
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1865 2013-05-07 18:28:38 <gmaxwell> cjd: fixing a bunch of stupidity.
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1868 2013-05-07 18:29:09 <cjd> ohkay...
1869 2013-05-07 18:29:38 <gmaxwell> There were a bunch of small allocations cleaned up that had caused heap fragmentation, duplicate buffers that didn't need to exist, maps that didn't shrink...
1870 2013-05-07 18:29:58 <cjd> ahh cool
1871 2013-05-07 18:30:19 <cjd> memory management is a pain, you either work hard up front or pay your debts later
1872 2013-05-07 18:30:34 <gmaxwell> Mempool itself is not a big space user, though it obviously has the potential to become one. There are some patches in the works (but yet ready for pulling) to limit mempool size further.
1873 2013-05-07 18:30:54 <gmaxwell> cjd: and in higher level languages a lot of that cost just gets hidden.
1874 2013-05-07 18:31:14 <cjd> yeap
1875 2013-05-07 18:31:44 * cjd wading through realloc hell to keep buffers contiguous
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1898 2013-05-07 18:54:31 <grau> sipa: just recognized that you changed BIP32 to additive. That invalidates my unit tests.
1899 2013-05-07 18:54:59 <grau> Worse it forces me to rebook my own BTC that was managed with BIP32. Since I eat what I cook.
1900 2013-05-07 18:55:04 anarchy5 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1901 2013-05-07 18:55:24 <grau> :)
1902 2013-05-07 18:55:31 <ThomasV> lol
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1904 2013-05-07 18:56:04 <grau> Time to settle with this.
1905 2013-05-07 18:56:16 <grau> Please not 5 minutes before the presentation.
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1909 2013-05-07 18:57:24 <gmaxwell> grau: you were advised that it wasn't finished yet!
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1911 2013-05-07 18:59:27 <ThomasV> btw, why was it multiplicative in the first place?
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1916 2013-05-07 19:01:01 <sipa> ThomasV: there was gut-feeling higher safety about it, but after significant discussion it became clear this was in fact a false sense of security - it has exactly the sam eproperties
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1930 2013-05-07 19:12:50 <grau> gmaxwell: I won't loose any money until I find in git how I derived the keys :)
1931 2013-05-07 19:13:37 <grau> I love to be my own bank. In fact I love to make my own bank
1932 2013-05-07 19:14:18 <pjorrit> lose*
1933 2013-05-07 19:14:28 jaequery has joined
1934 2013-05-07 19:14:39 <trang> why is it so hard to buy bit coins outside of US and Europe?
1935 2013-05-07 19:14:56 nus- is now known as nus
1936 2013-05-07 19:15:21 SirDefaced has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1937 2013-05-07 19:16:10 <grau> pjorrit: how many languages do you speak?
1938 2013-05-07 19:16:18 takeyourhatoff has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1939 2013-05-07 19:16:47 <pjorrit> i speak about 2 i understand a few more
1940 2013-05-07 19:16:47 Nash has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1941 2013-05-07 19:17:31 <grau> then I forgive you.
1942 2013-05-07 19:17:39 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
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1946 2013-05-07 19:19:04 <pjorrit> don't worry 'loose' is a meme that needs to
1947 2013-05-07 19:19:16 <pjorrit> be stopped
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1965 2013-05-07 19:28:02 <zooko> midnightmagic: so I looked here for the magnet link: http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2013/05/06 but apparently it was filtered out.
1966 2013-05-07 19:29:17 daybyter has joined
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1968 2013-05-07 19:37:16 <grau> Speaking of BIP32 change. I wonder if you also enjoy the ultimate thrill of writing a program that crafts and sends a transaction of some significant BTC amount of your own?
1969 2013-05-07 19:37:28 seeingidog__ has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1970 2013-05-07 19:37:52 <grau> It feels like bungee jumping.
1971 2013-05-07 19:38:23 egis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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1976 2013-05-07 19:42:11 <sipa> grau: i haven't done that with BIP32 yet, but i do have tested significant changes of my own on mainnet with real transactions :)
1977 2013-05-07 19:42:43 <grau> sipa: I knew I am not alone with this addiction :)
1978 2013-05-07 19:47:00 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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1980 2013-05-07 19:48:50 <michagogo> zooko: Magnet link for what?
1981 2013-05-07 19:49:46 <zooko> michagogo: the blockchain. Got one?
1982 2013-05-07 19:50:03 paraipan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1983 2013-05-07 19:50:05 <michagogo> bootstrap.dat, you mean?
1984 2013-05-07 19:50:06 <michagogo> magnet:?xt=urn:btih:6FE493BA606847EAC163BAF35AAE9DB319735482&dn=bootstrap.dat&tr=udp%3a%2f%2ftracker.openbittorrent.com%3a80&tr=udp%3a%2f%2ftracker.publicbt.com%3a80&tr=udp%3a%2f%2ftracker.ccc.de%3a80&tr=udp%3a%2f%2ftracker.istole.it%3a80
1985 2013-05-07 19:50:21 <michagogo> ( https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145386.0;all )
1986 2013-05-07 19:50:51 seeingidog__ has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1987 2013-05-07 19:51:11 Julius129 has joined
1988 2013-05-07 19:51:39 <zooko> Thanks!
1989 2013-05-07 19:53:21 <gmaxwell> michagogo: lame. Your link crams trackers into it. Distributed technology fail.
1990 2013-05-07 19:53:55 <michagogo> gmaxwell: That's just the link from bitcointalk, unmodified
1991 2013-05-07 19:54:13 <pjorrit> with trackers can't be worse than without?
1992 2013-05-07 19:54:17 <michagogo> And that.
1993 2013-05-07 19:56:15 <gmaxwell> pjorrit: it papers over the fact that without doesn't actually work right in many cases, resulting in people not fixing it.
1994 2013-05-07 19:56:26 <melvster> gmaxwell: lol anything wrong with query params? :)
1995 2013-05-07 19:57:06 <gmaxwell> pjorrit: and it was, in fact, our expirence that without trackers that torrent mostly didn't work.
1996 2013-05-07 19:57:23 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1998 2013-05-07 19:58:03 <michagogo> gmaxwell: Why is that?
1999 2013-05-07 19:58:54 <gmaxwell> michagogo: because software has bugs and less centeralized systems are hard. Specifically why? There were a multiple different reasons.
2000 2013-05-07 19:59:31 <michagogo> What were those reasons?
2001 2013-05-07 19:59:33 <gmaxwell> For example, one popular torrent client (rtorrent, and I think anything based on libtorrent) has no bootstrapping mechenism at all.
2002 2013-05-07 19:59:47 Skav has joined
2003 2013-05-07 20:00:03 <gmaxwell> (and even if you manually bootstrap it, the commandline parameters for that doesn't actually work)
2004 2013-05-07 20:00:17 <jaakkos> yeah... that's a pita, you need to create .rtorrent.rc
2005 2013-05-07 20:00:45 <jaakkos> it's real shame the dht support in rtorrent is so difficult
2006 2013-05-07 20:01:15 <gmaxwell> then, for some reasonâ which I don't think anyone ever explained even bootstrapped nodes would often only find one or two peers via the DHT. IF they happened to find of one that new of more they'd find more via peer exchange, otherwise... you'd just end up with two nodes on an island.
2007 2013-05-07 20:01:40 <gmaxwell> There is also one of the popular GUI clients that apparently uses a seperate disjoint DHT from the other clients.
2008 2013-05-07 20:01:59 <michagogo> Is uTorrent an okay client to use?
2009 2013-05-07 20:02:10 toffoo has quit ()
2010 2013-05-07 20:02:14 caedes has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2011 2013-05-07 20:02:16 <michagogo> Well, <micro>Torrent
2012 2013-05-07 20:02:17 MobPhone has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2013 2013-05-07 20:02:29 bad_duck has joined
2014 2013-05-07 20:02:39 <pjorrit> aight that sucks, works pretty damn fine with just the magnet for me though
2015 2013-05-07 20:04:05 <michagogo> gmaxwell: If I understand correctly, PEX works similar to the way BTC works
2016 2013-05-07 20:04:09 seeingidog__ has joined
2017 2013-05-07 20:04:17 <michagogo> gmaxwell: I don't think I understand how DHT works, though...
2018 2013-05-07 20:04:18 DaQatz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2019 2013-05-07 20:04:29 <Diablo-D3> michagogo: magic.
2020 2013-05-07 20:04:57 caedes has joined
2021 2013-05-07 20:06:58 <gmaxwell> michagogo: pex is non-transitive afaik.
2022 2013-05-07 20:07:11 * michagogo goes to google "transitive"
2023 2013-05-07 20:07:46 <michagogo> "whenever A = B and B = C, then also A = C"?
2024 2013-05-07 20:07:56 <gmaxwell> you learn about your peers peers not but their peers. It only goes one hop out.
2025 2013-05-07 20:08:15 <gmaxwell> which has plusses and minuses.
2026 2013-05-07 20:08:27 <michagogo> Wait, but if you connect to their peers don't you then ask them for their peers?
2027 2013-05-07 20:08:37 <cjd> I remember at one point I tried a magnet (w/o trackers) in transmission and it worked ok
2028 2013-05-07 20:08:48 <jaakkos> michagogo: dht is normally based on consistent hashing. nodes share keyspace responsibility. each node randomizes their position in the keyspace, and assumes responsibility of nearby keys. their neighbors up to some distance are also responsible for same keys, for redundancy. queries can be routed because neighbors know each other's addresses (in reality, they know more for logarithmic time lookup).
2029 2013-05-07 20:08:56 <cjd> took a few minutes to bounce around the DHT before finding peers but then it worked
2030 2013-05-07 20:09:00 <gmaxwell> michagogo: only if you're able to get a connection to them.
2031 2013-05-07 20:09:20 <michagogo> And that's not the case with BTC?
2032 2013-05-07 20:09:24 <michagogo> Interesting.
2033 2013-05-07 20:09:30 <gmaxwell> cjd: it appears that it works better for big already established swarms that have peers via other mechenisms already.
2034 2013-05-07 20:09:38 <cjd> /nod
2035 2013-05-07 20:09:42 <michagogo> G2g, sorry
2036 2013-05-07 20:09:43 <cjd> sounds right
2037 2013-05-07 20:09:45 michagogo has quit (Quit: goodnight)
2038 2013-05-07 20:10:51 <cjd> bitcoin seems to DTRT in that regard these days too
2039 2013-05-07 20:11:06 <cjd> 8 connections and I see in the logs when it's trying to fill a slot
2040 2013-05-07 20:11:06 <gmaxwell> in any case, going to talk about any of the issues encountered with small swarms and dht to the developers gets you as "add a tracker". I at least get the impression that the DHT stuff is only expected to be good enough to make shutting down trackers arguably ineffective.
2041 2013-05-07 20:11:17 MobPhone has joined
2042 2013-05-07 20:11:33 <gmaxwell> cjd: 8 connections is all it attempts to make out.
2043 2013-05-07 20:11:37 <cjd> yeah
2044 2013-05-07 20:11:46 <cjd> it seems to be working right
2045 2013-05-07 20:11:52 <gmaxwell> yes, bitcoin works.
2046 2013-05-07 20:12:02 <gmaxwell> though no one is (currently) attacking bitcoin.
2047 2013-05-07 20:12:17 <jaakkos> dht is also cool for mapping global bittorrent content :)
2048 2013-05-07 20:12:21 Skav has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2049 2013-05-07 20:12:26 <cjd> last time I played with it .6 ? it lost connections over time but I think that was due to an older version which was disconnecting incorrectly
2050 2013-05-07 20:12:36 <jaakkos> in theory, anyone could reconstruct piratebay in a matter of hours-days :P
2051 2013-05-07 20:12:47 <cjd> You probably are the one who told me why it was ;)
2052 2013-05-07 20:13:12 <gmaxwell> cjd: it shouldn't lose it's _outbound_ ones, since it will make an effort to keep up 8 out at all times.
2053 2013-05-07 20:13:19 <cjd> mmm
2054 2013-05-07 20:13:22 sacrelege has joined
2055 2013-05-07 20:14:02 <cjd> DHTs are annoying, they are just so pitifully attackable that in general one should avoid using them if at all possible
2056 2013-05-07 20:14:30 <pjorrit> how so?
2057 2013-05-07 20:14:45 etotheipi_ has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2058 2013-05-07 20:15:06 <cjd> spin up 20 fake nodes and brute force id numbers so they're all right next to your torrent
2059 2013-05-07 20:15:18 <cjd> then have them forget about the torrent
2060 2013-05-07 20:15:48 <cjd> or have them tell everyone that there's a nice TCP bittorrent node available at mtgox.com on port 80
2061 2013-05-07 20:16:20 <cjd> send 10,000 bogged down TCP stacks over to MT to abuse his stuff
2062 2013-05-07 20:16:23 <cjd> etc etc etc
2063 2013-05-07 20:16:27 savetheinternet has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2064 2013-05-07 20:16:35 <jaakkos> putting up lots of nodes at random positions lets you map content of the DHT :)
2065 2013-05-07 20:16:36 <cjd> the more solutions you find the more surprise problems come up
2066 2013-05-07 20:17:27 Namworld has joined
2067 2013-05-07 20:18:08 <gmaxwell> cjd: You are my buddy now. :P
2068 2013-05-07 20:18:42 <cjd> well... I've been over the code and the solutions don't work
2069 2013-05-07 20:18:49 <cjd> except cjdns since it's proximity based :)
2070 2013-05-07 20:18:51 systemParanoid has joined
2071 2013-05-07 20:18:58 <gmaxwell> You have to understand though, when most people say "DHT" .. they really have no idea what a DHT is, and they just think it's a widely accepted way of specifying "magic"
2072 2013-05-07 20:19:32 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: lol
2073 2013-05-07 20:19:38 <cjd> I will see your DHT and raise you one TheCloud
2074 2013-05-07 20:19:45 <pjorrit> well that's how you talk about software if you don't know it
2075 2013-05-07 20:19:46 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: the problem is its different kinds of magic
2076 2013-05-07 20:19:51 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
2077 2013-05-07 20:19:54 <Diablo-D3> not all distributed hash tables are created equal
2078 2013-05-07 20:20:26 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2079 2013-05-07 20:20:44 <sipa> gmaxwell: next time some suggests a DHT, tell them this is outdated technology... all the fancy kids on the block now use DH Rainbow Tables
2080 2013-05-07 20:20:57 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
2081 2013-05-07 20:20:58 <gmaxwell> cjd: I think people mostly know that "TheCloud" is a ... at least a big vague. But basically every discussion about Bitcoin communications challenges has someone wade in and say "I KNOW GUIS! LETS US A DHT!"
2082 2013-05-07 20:21:14 <cjd> yeah
2083 2013-05-07 20:21:25 <gmaxwell> s/big vague/bit vague/
2084 2013-05-07 20:21:29 <cjd> DHT advantages would be really nice for bitcoin
2085 2013-05-07 20:21:38 <cjd> if you could just erase all of the attacks :)
2086 2013-05-07 20:21:42 <gmaxwell> If they, you know, were real once you assume attacks.
2087 2013-05-07 20:21:45 <gmaxwell> right. :P
2088 2013-05-07 20:23:03 <gmaxwell> (and if our security model didn't still require all nodes seeing everything at least once in order to validate it... :) )
2089 2013-05-07 20:23:39 john5223 has left ("Leaving")
2090 2013-05-07 20:23:47 <Diablo-D3> gmaxwell: btw, in a change of subject, I think I might learn erlang before rust
2091 2013-05-07 20:24:04 <cjd> I've spent some time trying to see how the dataset could somehow be sharded so that groups could validate different subsets
2092 2013-05-07 20:24:18 <gmaxwell> (and if the data we were interested wasn't actually fairly compariable in size to a strong cryptographic hash identifying itâ¦)
2093 2013-05-07 20:24:21 <Diablo-D3> cjd: yeah, but that becomes not really worth it
2094 2013-05-07 20:24:32 norton has joined
2095 2013-05-07 20:24:38 <Diablo-D3> cjd: Ive been considering going down the path of using a kv store that works entirely over IB
2096 2013-05-07 20:24:46 <Diablo-D3> so the locality issue isnt
2097 2013-05-07 20:25:03 <zooko> What's IB?
2098 2013-05-07 20:25:26 <Diablo-D3> infiniband
2099 2013-05-07 20:25:30 <sipa> cjd: if you could erase all attacks, we could get rid of the blockchain too :p
2100 2013-05-07 20:25:47 <cjd> \o/
2101 2013-05-07 20:25:50 <sipa> actually, why would we even need signatures?
2102 2013-05-07 20:26:02 <cjd> gift economies ftw
2103 2013-05-07 20:26:02 <gmaxwell> cjd: yea great, but when the validation you're performing is that a sum over it isn't greater than X... or otherwise when there is interdepdencies such that there is no cutting plane that breaks the data into independently validatable stuff?
2104 2013-05-07 20:26:07 <zooko> Actually we wouldn't need money.
2105 2013-05-07 20:26:18 <zooko> Oh, cjd beat me to it.
2106 2013-05-07 20:26:20 <gmaxwell> Awesome. Problems all solved. We can go home!
2107 2013-05-07 20:26:36 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2108 2013-05-07 20:26:45 <norton> this isn't where I parked my car
2109 2013-05-07 20:27:00 <cjd> yeah, trying to define the cutting plane is the problem
2110 2013-05-07 20:27:17 seeingidog__ has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2111 2013-05-07 20:27:18 <cjd> I didn't say I had an answer, just that I think one would be interesting :)
2112 2013-05-07 20:27:19 <gmaxwell> norton: your car? I thought that was a gift!
2113 2013-05-07 20:27:32 <gmaxwell> cjd: in some problems it's not obviously hard...
2114 2013-05-07 20:27:50 <norton> I pirated it
2115 2013-05-07 20:29:50 <dugo> what's the common cause of 'ERROR: ProcessBlock() : AcceptBlock FAILED' and bitcoin-qt halting?
2116 2013-05-07 20:31:11 <cjd> bleh you can't sort by txouts since transactions are atomic
2117 2013-05-07 20:31:25 <cjd> you can't really know in advance what the hash of your transaction is going to be
2118 2013-05-07 20:31:44 <cjd> to try and select input transactions which are similar...
2119 2013-05-07 20:34:00 jonass has joined
2120 2013-05-07 20:34:41 <jonass> any ideas on how i can build Bitcoin-Qt with static libs? (mac but maybe doen't matter)? i have RELEASE=1 while running qmake
2121 2013-05-07 20:34:48 <Luke-Jr> dugo: corrupt disk?
2122 2013-05-07 20:35:06 <Luke-Jr> jonass: why would you want to do that? :P
2123 2013-05-07 20:35:33 <Julius129> i compiled on freebsd today, bitcoin compiled quickly but the boost dependency took 45 minutes
2124 2013-05-07 20:35:46 zooko has left ("Tahoe-LAFS, the secure, decentralized storage system")
2125 2013-05-07 20:35:54 <jonass> Luke-Jr i'd like to test one of my pull-requests on a old 10.5 OSX. So i need to build with no dependencies.
2126 2013-05-07 20:36:02 <helo> it's nice when library versions don't change, forcing a full resync
2127 2013-05-07 20:36:12 <helo> (re: static linking)
2128 2013-05-07 20:36:54 <gmaxwell> helo: 'forcing a full resync' huh?
2129 2013-05-07 20:37:19 <jonass> Luke-Jr neverminde. found the issue myself. :)
2130 2013-05-07 20:37:33 FredEE has joined
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2132 2013-05-07 20:37:47 <Luke-Jr> helo: library version changes don't force a full resync..
2133 2013-05-07 20:38:02 <Julius129> he meant re-compile of the dependencies
2134 2013-05-07 20:38:15 <helo> well, i copied over a fully synched ~/.bitcoin, and when i tried to start it up it gave an error like "remove everything aside from wallet.dat and try again"
2135 2013-05-07 20:38:40 <Julius129> oh that shouldnt happen
2136 2013-05-07 20:38:42 <helo> i assumed it was a libdb version problem
2137 2013-05-07 20:38:54 <gmaxwell> helo: the message was incorrect and it's been removed in git. That was actually triggered by the wallet.dat being unreadable.
2138 2013-05-07 20:38:54 <Julius129> what platform?
2139 2013-05-07 20:39:09 <helo> ...but that shouldn't affect blockchain stuff any more
2140 2013-05-07 20:39:31 <Luke-Jr> helo: static linking won't change what libdb you link against
2141 2013-05-07 20:39:36 <gmaxwell> helo: it doesn't, thus the message being no longer correct.
2142 2013-05-07 20:39:53 <helo> gmaxwell: k
2143 2013-05-07 20:40:22 <gmaxwell> (and even there, an upgrade should never have cause thatâ a _downgrade_ would)
2144 2013-05-07 20:40:56 <helo> ahh yes, it was git -> 0.8.1
2145 2013-05-07 20:42:09 <helo> Luke-Jr: i thought static linking meant it would bring the newer libdb to my old out-of-date offline machine by packing it inside the binary
2146 2013-05-07 20:42:52 <Luke-Jr> helo: perhaps, but using any bdb besides 4.8 exactly is unsupported..
2147 2013-05-07 20:43:50 <helo> i.e. compiling in ubuntu
2148 2013-05-07 20:44:09 <gmaxwell> helo: you can compile in ubuntu against 4.8. ... thats how the official binaries are built.
2149 2013-05-07 20:45:58 <helo> i suppose it's much easier once you know you're suppposed to :)
2150 2013-05-07 20:47:06 <gmaxwell> probably should have required people to #define I_UNDERSTAND_MY_WARRANTY_IS_VOID_AND_MY_WALLET_WILL_BE_NON_INTEROPERABLE 1
2151 2013-05-07 20:47:52 <BlueMatt> we really need to make it difficult so package maintainers dont do it because "damn bitcoiners...using shitty old bdbs and forcing us to use them"
2152 2013-05-07 20:48:11 <helo> although https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/raring/+package/libdb4.8 (not found)
2153 2013-05-07 20:48:34 <gmaxwell> sipa: that windows leveldb corruption couldn't have been the issue with multiply opened files?
2154 2013-05-07 20:48:48 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2155 2013-05-07 20:49:05 <gmaxwell> (I'd been assuming/hoping thats what that was)
2156 2013-05-07 20:50:22 <sipa> gmaxwell: no, that'd be a Database I/O error, abort
2157 2013-05-07 20:50:26 <sipa> not an assertion failed
2158 2013-05-07 20:51:00 <sipa> gmaxwell: i'm currently just ascribing this to random hardware corruption
2159 2013-05-07 20:51:04 Julius129 has quit ()
2160 2013-05-07 20:51:20 <gmaxwell> sipa: but what state would it leave the database in after the fact? (not that we shouldn't be detecting whatever crazy state it is at startup)
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2163 2013-05-07 20:52:40 <sipa> gmaxwell: good question, but afaik not that
2164 2013-05-07 20:52:46 <sipa> gmaxwell: Diapolo would know
2165 2013-05-07 20:53:01 <sipa> but i don't think it resulted in permanent corruption
2166 2013-05-07 20:53:14 <sipa> as it just aborts the instant the file is tried to be opened
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2175 2013-05-07 20:59:06 <sipa> Your travel authorization has been approved and you are authorized to travel to the United States under the Visa Waiver Program.
2176 2013-05-07 20:59:29 owowo has joined
2177 2013-05-07 21:00:02 <BlueMatt> heh, so you didnt check the "Im an idiot and will gladly admit to doing illegal drugs and being a sociopath" box?
2178 2013-05-07 21:00:06 <BlueMatt> also, your name isnt arabit?
2179 2013-05-07 21:00:08 <BlueMatt> c
2180 2013-05-07 21:00:41 duSn has joined
2181 2013-05-07 21:01:00 <sipa> yeah, i also did not check "I'm involved in sabotage, espionage or terrorism."
2182 2013-05-07 21:01:27 larsig has joined
2183 2013-05-07 21:01:39 <norton> allahu akbar
2184 2013-05-07 21:02:07 highPriestLOL is now known as zz_highPriestLOL
2185 2013-05-07 21:02:13 DaQatz has joined
2186 2013-05-07 21:02:32 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2187 2013-05-07 21:03:35 <helo> sipa: despite your track record in Settlers of Catan?
2188 2013-05-07 21:04:49 D34TH has joined
2189 2013-05-07 21:04:59 <sipa> helo: i'm hoping they don't know about that
2190 2013-05-07 21:08:11 <SirDefaced> while trying to compile bitcoin-qt im getting this error. im also using gitian for this. src/main.cpp:3302: warning: âunsigned int ScanHash_CryptoPP(char*, char*, char*, char*, unsigned int&)â defined but not used
2191 2013-05-07 21:08:26 santoscork has quit (Quit: Quiet while I make like a cat)
2192 2013-05-07 21:08:34 <sipa> SirDefaced: that's weird
2193 2013-05-07 21:08:52 <gmaxwell> SirDefaced: thats not an error.
2194 2013-05-07 21:08:53 Prattler has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
2195 2013-05-07 21:09:04 <SirDefaced> it breaks right after that in the script.
2196 2013-05-07 21:09:14 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
2197 2013-05-07 21:09:24 <gmaxwell> perhaps, but it's still not an error. :) is there anything else?
2198 2013-05-07 21:09:36 <SirDefaced> yes one second ill do a pastebin
2199 2013-05-07 21:09:39 debiantoruser has joined
2200 2013-05-07 21:10:14 <Luke-Jr> I thought we got rid of CryptoPP?
2201 2013-05-07 21:10:17 MobiusL is now known as ConsCoffeeMaker
2202 2013-05-07 21:10:37 ConsCoffeeMaker is now known as MobiusL
2203 2013-05-07 21:12:35 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, iirc it's still there but only used in the mining code
2204 2013-05-07 21:12:43 <phantomcircuit> which should probably just be removed all together
2205 2013-05-07 21:13:05 <phantomcircuit> the only reason to leave it is for cpu mining on testnet
2206 2013-05-07 21:13:07 Xqr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2207 2013-05-07 21:14:01 <sipa> still, the code shouldn't be considered unreachable
2208 2013-05-07 21:14:08 BTCOxygen has joined
2209 2013-05-07 21:14:08 <sipa> as -gen uses it
2210 2013-05-07 21:14:30 <SirDefaced> hmm paste bin has a limit, of course -,-
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2216 2013-05-07 21:26:04 <dugo> and there should be a maintained reference mining implementation imo
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2220 2013-05-07 21:27:22 <Luke-Jr> dugo: why?
2221 2013-05-07 21:27:42 <Luke-Jr> dugo: libblkmaker's example.c count?
2222 2013-05-07 21:28:25 <Luke-Jr> https://gitorious.org/bitcoin/libblkmaker/blobs/master/example.c
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2240 2013-05-07 21:48:41 <nospinzy> finally got these dam automatic payments working
2241 2013-05-07 21:49:05 resinate has joined
2242 2013-05-07 21:49:43 <cjd> here I thought java was an unproductive language...
2243 2013-05-07 21:50:38 <legitnick1> its useful for acquiring malware
2244 2013-05-07 21:51:24 <cjd> xD
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2326 2013-05-07 23:15:02 <ProfMac> will bitcoind work with an ipv6 anycast address?
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2328 2013-05-07 23:16:41 <phantomcircuit> ProfMac, if the route is stable i dont see why not
2329 2013-05-07 23:18:11 <gmaxwell> what? no.
2330 2013-05-07 23:18:23 <gmaxwell> _TCP_ doesn't work reliably with anycast because consistent and symmetric routing is not guarenteed.
2331 2013-05-07 23:18:49 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: does it have to be symmetric? O.o
2332 2013-05-07 23:19:27 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr: um
2333 2013-05-07 23:21:02 CodesInChaos has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2334 2013-05-07 23:22:35 <Luke-Jr> ?
2335 2013-05-07 23:22:47 <ProfMac> I had some vague idea of two instances of bitcoind running on two machines with the same anycast address.
2336 2013-05-07 23:23:57 <bonks> Is there an article on the wiki that explains how transactions are included in a block?
2337 2013-05-07 23:25:32 <Luke-Jr> bonks: miners whim
2338 2013-05-07 23:27:35 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, he's actually right tcp works on asymmetric routes
2339 2013-05-07 23:28:09 <phantomcircuit> ProfMac, why would you do that
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2341 2013-05-07 23:28:26 <jspilman> Will sendrawtransaction rpc fail if sigs are valid but non canonical?
2342 2013-05-07 23:28:45 <sipa> jspilman: i think so, yes, let me check
2343 2013-05-07 23:28:58 <bonks> Luke-Jr: Oh right.. but when two miners share *some* transactions, how does the miner with the already verified transaction handle these?
2344 2013-05-07 23:29:05 <sipa> jspilman: indeed, it uses the same rules as relaying
2345 2013-05-07 23:29:15 <sipa> jspilman: so if your own node wouldn't relay it, it's not accepted
2346 2013-05-07 23:29:22 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit: not well in practice w/ anycast
2347 2013-05-07 23:29:32 <jgarzik> there's theory, then there's reality
2348 2013-05-07 23:29:43 <jspilman> sipa: thanks
2349 2013-05-07 23:30:01 <Luke-Jr> bonks: what?
2350 2013-05-07 23:30:02 <ProfMac> phantomcircuit: you mean beyond "too much free time" I suppose. There are 3 scenarios: 1. Just to see what happens. 2. During a transition time, when I want the ip address to stay the same as it was historically, but I want to migrate to a new host machine, or 3. Redundancy for maximum uptime.
2351 2013-05-07 23:30:14 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I like theory >_<
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2354 2013-05-07 23:30:53 <sipa> bonks: if a transaction you have in your memory pool gets included in a block in the chain, you remove them from your memory pool
2355 2013-05-07 23:31:00 <bonks> Luke-Jr: Is my understand correct that whatever transactions a miner wants to include in a block, a hash is generated using merkle tree. He then solves for this hash?
2356 2013-05-07 23:31:16 <sipa> bonks: that's part of it, yes
2357 2013-05-07 23:31:18 <Luke-Jr> bonks: more or less
2358 2013-05-07 23:32:10 <bonks> So if miner1 is solving for txn1 and txn2 and miner2 is solving for txn2 and txn3, what happens when one gets a solution first?
2359 2013-05-07 23:32:27 <bonks> With txn2 that is
2360 2013-05-07 23:32:33 <sipa> bonks: the other removes txn2 from his pool and moves on
2361 2013-05-07 23:32:37 <jaakkos> symmetric routes are not necessary because TCP streams are bidirectional with separated streams, but if the routes are not consistent, that will cause problems with RTT estimates.
2362 2013-05-07 23:32:42 <phantomcircuit> ProfMac, i can think of a number of better ways to do that
2363 2013-05-07 23:32:43 <phantomcircuit> like
2364 2013-05-07 23:32:57 <phantomcircuit> just running with the same wallet
2365 2013-05-07 23:33:21 <bonks> sipa: Ah. So everytime a new block is found, all miners need to generate a new merkle tree hash excluding those verified transactions?
2366 2013-05-07 23:33:36 <sipa> bonks: they continuously need to generate new merkle trees anyway
2367 2013-05-07 23:33:42 <sipa> bonks: when new transactions are accepted
2368 2013-05-07 23:33:53 <sipa> or more work needs to be produced to work on
2369 2013-05-07 23:34:25 <bonks> sipa: Could you elaborate on why miners need to continuously generate new trees?
2370 2013-05-07 23:34:42 <sipa> bonks: ... if the transactions in your block change, the block must change, right?
2371 2013-05-07 23:34:51 <sipa> and the transactions are linked to the block via the merkle tree
2372 2013-05-07 23:35:03 <sipa> also, blocks refer to the previous block
2373 2013-05-07 23:35:21 <sipa> so if there is a new block announced on the network, what you work on next will refer to that new block
2374 2013-05-07 23:35:28 <sipa> so your old work becomes invalid anyway
2375 2013-05-07 23:35:32 <sipa> or stale, at least
2376 2013-05-07 23:35:40 <bonks> Oh right but isn't a miner going to work on a set of transactions until a block is found? Or do miners continuously add more incoming transactions?
2377 2013-05-07 23:35:53 <sipa> they continuously all more incoming transactions
2378 2013-05-07 23:36:36 <bonks> Doesn't adding new transactions all the time lessen the probability of finding a solution?
2379 2013-05-07 23:36:41 <sipa> a normal CPU can build a new merkle tree 10000-100000 times per second or so
2380 2013-05-07 23:36:47 <sipa> bonks: no!
2381 2013-05-07 23:36:57 <sipa> bonks: every hash has exactly the same chance of winning
2382 2013-05-07 23:37:14 <sipa> whether you change the block data is hashes or not doesn't change that
2383 2013-05-07 23:38:05 <jaakkos> sipa: btw do you only update a merkle branch or rebuild the whole tree? the latter, right?
2384 2013-05-07 23:38:19 <bonks> Interesting. I always wondered about this but could not formulate any questions until now :D
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2386 2013-05-07 23:38:31 <jaakkos> sipa: i mean, former
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2389 2013-05-07 23:38:59 <sipa> jaakkos: bitcoind rebuilds the whole tree (and a lot more, it goes through transaction selection from the mempool again, which is far more expensive)
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2391 2013-05-07 23:39:20 <jaakkos> well, i suppose it doesn't matter because the tree is so small anyway
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2393 2013-05-07 23:39:36 <sipa> the tree building isn't expensive, but transaction selection actually is
2394 2013-05-07 23:39:52 <jaakkos> sipa: are there any other benefits from the merkle tree except SPV?
2395 2013-05-07 23:39:54 <sipa> jaakkos: but no (large) pool lets bitcoind do block building by itself anyway, they generate new tree locally in the pool software
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2397 2013-05-07 23:40:13 <sipa> jaakkos: that's a pretty large benefit already, imho :)
2398 2013-05-07 23:40:19 <jaakkos> of course
2399 2013-05-07 23:40:39 <sipa> it means the block hashing speed is independent from the number of transactions in it
2400 2013-05-07 23:40:50 <sipa> but that could be accomplished through other simpler means as well
2401 2013-05-07 23:41:13 <Luke-Jr> would be nice if bitcoind maintained its priority list in realtime <.<
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2403 2013-05-07 23:41:25 <jaakkos> i actually told someone the merkle tree is used because miners don't have to rebuild it all the time, but i will need to correct that :(
2404 2013-05-07 23:41:35 <jaakkos> (in addition to SPV of course)
2405 2013-05-07 23:42:14 <bonks> So are orphan blocks created when solutions contain all the same transactions?
2406 2013-05-07 23:42:22 <sipa> bonks: no
2407 2013-05-07 23:42:26 <jaakkos> ZFS operates nicely by updating merkle branches when transactions are written to disk
2408 2013-05-07 23:42:42 <sipa> bonks: including the same transaction twice in the same chain is simply invalid
2409 2013-05-07 23:44:31 <denisx> jaakkos: you don't need to rebuold the whole merkletree
2410 2013-05-07 23:44:36 <denisx> only one branch
2411 2013-05-07 23:44:47 <jaakkos> denisx: that is what i was discussing, but bitcoin rebuilds it anyway.
2412 2013-05-07 23:44:50 <bonks> Gotcha. So an orphan block is when a block is submitted to multiple chains and confirmed but when they collide with a different chain the shorter one becomes orphaned?
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2414 2013-05-07 23:45:04 <sipa> bonks: a block refers to its parent explicitly
2415 2013-05-07 23:45:07 <denisx> jaakkos: you talking about getwork?
2416 2013-05-07 23:45:11 <sipa> bonks: it cannot be in multiple chains
2417 2013-05-07 23:45:23 <sipa> bonks: and orphaned is such a confusing term here
2418 2013-05-07 23:45:35 <Luke-Jr> stale'd :P
2419 2013-05-07 23:45:40 <sipa> it's often used in the meaning of "not the longest chain"
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2421 2013-05-07 23:45:46 <sipa> which i think is what you mean
2422 2013-05-07 23:46:00 <sipa> and no, it just happens when a block happens to build on a block that was already built upon further
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2424 2013-05-07 23:46:20 <sipa> which is inevitable, as you don't hear about new blocks immediately
2425 2013-05-07 23:46:29 <sipa> (finite communication speed across the globe and such)
2426 2013-05-07 23:46:32 <jaakkos> denisx: i suppose so, see above discussion
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2428 2013-05-07 23:48:32 <bonks> sipa: So it happens when a node accepts a new block before learning that everyone else accepted a different block to the same previous block?
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2431 2013-05-07 23:50:09 <jaakkos> sipa, denisx: so building the merkle trees (bottlenecked at tx selection?) is the problem with ASICs and getwork?
2432 2013-05-07 23:50:28 Belxjander has joined
2433 2013-05-07 23:50:47 <Luke-Jr> jaakkos: more or less
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2436 2013-05-07 23:51:26 <denisx> one getwork is just not enough work for an ASIC
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2438 2013-05-07 23:52:08 <jaakkos> you need a new getwork when the main header nonce wraps?
2439 2013-05-07 23:53:20 <jaakkos> yeah
2440 2013-05-07 23:54:03 <jaakkos> hmm. why not just modify getwork so that it won't reselect transactions if getwork is called too often, just update extranonce? or are there other bottlenecks?
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2442 2013-05-07 23:54:41 <jaakkos> but perhaps the problem is that getwork needs to be called in the first place, pausing the mining...
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2445 2013-05-07 23:56:20 <sipa> jaakkos: or just move the creation of the merkle tree to some point closer to the miner
2446 2013-05-07 23:56:36 <sipa> jaakkos: and let bitcoind do what it is good at: maintaining a valid state of transactions