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3 2013-05-08 00:01:29 <Luke-Jr> jaakkos: ASICs do numerous headers per secon
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5 2013-05-08 00:04:06 <jaakkos> i see... was the extranonce introduced as a glue to fix the wrapping or did bitcoin always have it? :)
6 2013-05-08 00:04:42 <jaakkos> (if it always had it, why not just make the main nonce longer ... well i understand - it makes the header longer which is not good!)
7 2013-05-08 00:05:06 <sipa> jaakkos: depends what you call extranonce, i guess
8 2013-05-08 00:05:26 <sipa> actually, it's always been there
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10 2013-05-08 00:06:29 <sipa> it's just the coinbase transaction's input script, which is otherwise ignored (except it has size restrictions, max 100 bytes; it is unfortunately included in the sigop limit count, and since bip34 it contains the block height)
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12 2013-05-08 00:07:56 <jaakkos> i see, i always wondered if there really was a separate field for it
13 2013-05-08 00:09:13 <jaakkos> thanks for answering these random questions :)
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100 2013-05-08 00:50:46 <jspilman> so this is interesting... apparently there only ~4BTC in the entire block chain in unspent outputs using multisig right now
101 2013-05-08 00:51:10 <gmaxwell> uh.
102 2013-05-08 00:51:12 quaz0r has joined
103 2013-05-08 00:51:13 <gmaxwell> Thats not true.
104 2013-05-08 00:51:34 <jspilman> well that doesn't count P2SH... there's another 111 BTC there
105 2013-05-08 00:51:41 <gmaxwell> Okay then.
106 2013-05-08 00:51:45 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
107 2013-05-08 00:51:47 <jspilman> :-)
108 2013-05-08 00:52:26 <nsh> what's P2SH?
109 2013-05-08 00:52:38 tg has joined
110 2013-05-08 00:52:49 <nsh> Pay to Script Hash
111 2013-05-08 00:52:57 * nsh reads https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0016
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117 2013-05-08 00:55:39 * nsh frowns
118 2013-05-08 00:56:04 <nsh> clearly i need to read a lot of other things before i try to understand this
119 2013-05-08 00:58:59 <jspilman> wow, Coinbase just got $5m in funding
120 2013-05-08 01:00:17 <nsh> that's like 1/15th of a lawsuit!
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129 2013-05-08 01:11:08 <petertodd> jspilman: That's probably nearly all from my timestamper
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132 2013-05-08 01:11:43 <petertodd> jspilman: Crazy, so half of those BTC are John Dillon's output when he donated to the developers.
133 2013-05-08 01:11:56 <petertodd> jspilman: (the P2SH part)
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135 2013-05-08 01:12:42 <petertodd> jspilman: (3LejWS17n4s7NpGbpkifBBVpfNp473zCW5 is the address)
136 2013-05-08 01:12:59 <petertodd> Kinda sad, because multisig could do so much for hot wallet security. :(
137 2013-05-08 01:14:57 <rdponticelli> Most people designing hot wallets aren't thinking about security but about getting rich quick...
138 2013-05-08 01:15:00 <gmaxwell> No one cares. Hot wallets are found money.
139 2013-05-08 01:15:21 <gmaxwell> Either the money belongs to someone else, or it's income from a low involvement business.
140 2013-05-08 01:15:31 <petertodd> yeah...
141 2013-05-08 01:16:08 <petertodd> Has any hot wallet operator even been sued yet for their screwups, let alone jailed?
142 2013-05-08 01:16:14 <gmaxwell> I can think of no other explination for the same parties getting hacked multiple times with similar methods beyond it's moderately hard and people just don't care that much.
143 2013-05-08 01:16:29 <nsh> caveat give-some-stranger-on-the-internet-my-money-or
144 2013-05-08 01:16:38 <gmaxwell> petertodd: of course not, I mean, outright theft hasn't resulted in the theieves being prosecuted even when we know who they are.
145 2013-05-08 01:16:39 <nsh> (i believe is the legal principle)
146 2013-05-08 01:16:59 <petertodd> Where's an example where we know who they are?
147 2013-05-08 01:17:13 BTCOxygen has quit (1!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/btcoxygen|Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
148 2013-05-08 01:17:15 <gmaxwell> E.g. even in the bitcoinica case ... there is prosecution, but not of anyone that anyone believes to be the theif!
149 2013-05-08 01:17:32 <gmaxwell> petertodd: pirate40's identity is well established, for an obvious example.
150 2013-05-08 01:17:52 <petertodd> gmaxwell: interesting, didn't know people were so sure
151 2013-05-08 01:18:03 * petertodd is not a gambler
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159 2013-05-08 01:23:16 <gmaxwell> (not to suggest it's all trivial, deploying a multisig wallet has its own risks... e.g. what happens when you lose one set of the keys)
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161 2013-05-08 01:29:44 <petertodd> the fact that most wallet apps don't support p2sh addresses is a hurdle too
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164 2013-05-08 01:31:57 <nsh> petertodd, how is this? do they take some substantially different form
165 2013-05-08 01:31:59 <nsh> +?
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167 2013-05-08 01:34:13 * jgarzik scrolls back
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169 2013-05-08 01:34:25 <jgarzik> <petertodd> Kinda sad, because multisig could do so much for hot wallet security. :( <<-- such as?
170 2013-05-08 01:34:36 <jgarzik> (I can think of an example, but curious what you're thinking)
171 2013-05-08 01:34:37 <petertodd> nsh: yup, remember that an address isn't the script, just a hash, so the wallet software has to recognize a p2sh address and create the proper script, nothing terribly complex, but no-one bothers
172 2013-05-08 01:34:44 <da2ce7> hello :)
173 2013-05-08 01:34:54 <nsh> petertodd, i see
174 2013-05-08 01:35:22 <nsh> well, that's a bootstrapping problem more than anything else. once there is a perceived benefit to this functionality, it will follow
175 2013-05-08 01:35:55 <petertodd> jgarzik: for example, if you use phone-based two factor authenticaton, you can have the SMS server hold one key, and the backend to the webserver the other, totally different code, totally different vulnerabilities, adn both must be exploited at once
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178 2013-05-08 01:37:15 <petertodd> jgarzik: my timestamper is an interesting case, because the second server just needs to check that the funds still go back to me, the fee was correct, and the third pubkey is useless
179 2013-05-08 01:37:38 * jgarzik wants to make zero output transactions legal ;pp
180 2013-05-08 01:37:56 <da2ce7> are there any patches for the bitcoin-qt message signing that will encrypt a message to a public key (in addition)?
181 2013-05-08 01:38:11 <petertodd> jgarzik: although in my case I *haven't* done that because I think losing $400 is worth it to find out my server isn't secure, especially if it's not secure due to amazon...
182 2013-05-08 01:38:30 BTCOxygen has joined
183 2013-05-08 01:38:33 <petertodd> jgarzik: OP_CHECKMULTISIG abuse is a bit more efficient than OP_RETURN for timestamping
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186 2013-05-08 01:40:16 * nsh muses on bitcoin vulnerability fishing
187 2013-05-08 01:40:36 <jgarzik> da2ce7: not afaik
188 2013-05-08 01:41:08 <da2ce7> jgarzik: any Secp256k1 patches for encription?
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191 2013-05-08 01:42:12 <jgarzik> petertodd: I'd like to find an efficient way to timestamp via miner fee
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193 2013-05-08 01:42:36 <petertodd> jgarzik: you mean via coinbase?
194 2013-05-08 01:42:41 <jgarzik> petertodd: RE OP_RETURN, we might as well make that legal. I think last discussion seemed OK with making one output per transaction w/ OP_RETURN standard.
195 2013-05-08 01:42:47 <jgarzik> petertodd: no, anybody
196 2013-05-08 01:43:17 <petertodd> jgarzik: right, so pay a miner to include your hash into a merkle tree for their coinbase
197 2013-05-08 01:43:18 <jgarzik> petertodd: proof-of-burn used as proof of initial resource use
198 2013-05-08 01:44:23 <petertodd> jgarzik: right, but then you have to do it on a per-miner basis, or your using more blockchain space with the transactions to update the proof-of-burn tokens than timestamping would
199 2013-05-08 01:45:04 <da2ce7> jgarzik: https://gist.github.com/mndrix/5373519 :)
200 2013-05-08 01:47:00 <nsh> da2ce7, what's all that magic? (the long hex literals) do they encode the EC group/set/something that bitcoin uses?
201 2013-05-08 01:47:26 <da2ce7> nsh: the Secp256k1 constants.
202 2013-05-08 01:47:32 <nsh> ah, ok
203 2013-05-08 01:48:01 <nsh> i assume these have some desirable properties that an arbitrary set of constants may not
204 2013-05-08 01:48:09 * nsh reads https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Secp256k1
205 2013-05-08 01:48:35 <da2ce7> yes, the curve that bitcoin uses, Secp256k1, is faster than the standard Secp256p1.
206 2013-05-08 01:48:37 <nsh> more informatively: https://bitcointalk.org/?topic=2699.0
207 2013-05-08 01:49:04 <da2ce7> **Secp256r1.
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209 2013-05-08 01:49:51 <da2ce7> s-i-p-a, (and hal), include code in bitcoin that takes avantage of it.
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211 2013-05-08 01:50:03 * nsh wonders is there is some (potential) compromise at the expense of this speed-up
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213 2013-05-08 01:50:17 <da2ce7> nsh: yes, from memory about 8bit
214 2013-05-08 01:50:22 <gmaxwell> da2ce7: the curve bitcoin uses is _equally_ a standard.
215 2013-05-08 01:50:56 <nsh> "Standards bodies have tended to shy away from Koblitz curves out of fear that this internal structure could someday be exploited to yield a new attack. Indeed certain Koblitz curves, but not secp256k1, lose a couple dozen bits of security to a known attack."
216 2013-05-08 01:51:10 <nsh> so you can mitigate the effects of internal structure by linear extension of key length
217 2013-05-08 01:51:15 <nsh> (theoretically)
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219 2013-05-08 01:51:46 <nsh> probably time to read a bit more on ECC
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228 2013-05-08 02:09:32 <sainth> I'm looking for an easy way to validate a Bitcoin address in perl
229 2013-05-08 02:09:38 <sainth> The code I found here: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Bitcoin/address_validation
230 2013-05-08 02:09:41 <sainth> doesn't seem to work
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236 2013-05-08 02:13:17 <nsh> sainth, did you read this thread? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1026.0
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238 2013-05-08 02:14:09 <nsh> there are python, ruby, php and bash examples
239 2013-05-08 02:14:27 <nsh> if you concatenate them and apply gzip you should get working perl code
240 2013-05-08 02:14:47 <nsh> (disclaimer: i am not a programologist)
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243 2013-05-08 02:15:20 <sainth> yeah, I tried the bash example too, but my box is missing dc
244 2013-05-08 02:15:47 <sainth> I was hoping for perl, javascript might work too which is what I'm looking at now
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246 2013-05-08 02:16:12 <sainth> the perl code almost works, I just don't know enough to debug it
247 2013-05-08 02:16:23 <nsh> (dc is a standard GNU package on most distribution repositories)
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249 2013-05-08 02:19:10 <sainth> I will try that
250 2013-05-08 02:19:42 <sainth> if anyone sees that perl code and sees an obvious solution, please msg me :)
251 2013-05-08 02:19:55 <nsh> the dc call in the bash example is just used to decode the base58
252 2013-05-08 02:20:04 <nsh> it can replaced with a standard CPAN perl module that does the same
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254 2013-05-08 02:20:46 <sainth> ideally I'd like a pure perl sub that does it without bash or anything
255 2013-05-08 02:21:15 * nsh nods
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257 2013-05-08 02:21:45 <nsh> perhaps if you post to that thread requesting a debug/replacement for the rosettacode example someone will assist
258 2013-05-08 02:21:47 <jspilman> pertertodd: ack on that address. there are only 51 unspent outputs greater than 1 satoshi
259 2013-05-08 02:22:03 <gmaxwell> crap. someone uncovered that sipa is a lolcat.
260 2013-05-08 02:22:04 <Luke-Jr> sainth: bitcoin-pl has a base58 module, but I think somewhere is non-native C code
261 2013-05-08 02:22:13 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: â
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263 2013-05-08 02:22:55 <nsh> first they came for the lolcat bitcoin developers, but i did not speakout because i was a lolrus
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265 2013-05-08 02:23:18 * nsh wonders how speak out became one word...
266 2013-05-08 02:23:30 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: https://github.com/wyager/bitcoin/commit/5fdd1251a87a0938f48e88970ae976e360c6e09f
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270 2013-05-08 02:25:18 <Luke-Jr> weird, isn't unsigned int 16-bit?
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272 2013-05-08 02:25:46 <gmaxwell> 0_o
273 2013-05-08 02:25:48 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: no.
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275 2013-05-08 02:26:03 <gmaxwell> (I mean, it is in dos... :P )
276 2013-05-08 02:26:14 <Luke-Jr> hmm
277 2013-05-08 02:26:18 <nsh> DOS was peak-software.
278 2013-05-08 02:26:28 <gmaxwell> (or on PDP11)
279 2013-05-08 02:26:28 <Luke-Jr> if the standard only requires 16-bit, that's why I write assuming <.<
280 2013-05-08 02:26:34 <gmaxwell> Right.
281 2013-05-08 02:26:42 <Luke-Jr> I'd be tempted to use uintmax_t thereâ¦
282 2013-05-08 02:27:02 <Luke-Jr> probably speedup on 64-bit CPUs
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284 2013-05-08 02:27:25 <gmaxwell> Nope. At least not x86_64.
285 2013-05-08 02:27:52 <gmaxwell> Cray ... yes. :P
286 2013-05-08 02:28:48 * Luke-Jr goes back to his world of theory <.<
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352 2013-05-08 03:51:02 <hctib> Hello, I would like to read about the new 0.8.2 client. Is there a github forum where this is discussed. I'm looking for Gavin's comments as well as others. Thanks.
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355 2013-05-08 03:52:28 <gmaxwell> hctib: I'm not sure what you're asking about. There isn't a 0.8.2 yet, the code working in that direction is in git.
356 2013-05-08 03:52:46 <gmaxwell> Discussions about development largely happen on github along with the commits that make changes to the code.
357 2013-05-08 03:53:07 <gmaxwell> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pulls?direction=desc&page=1&sort=created&state=closed
358 2013-05-08 03:53:08 <hctib> gmaxwell, where is that discussion? Thank you
359 2013-05-08 03:53:14 <hctib> nevermind thanks
360 2013-05-08 03:53:24 kanyl has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
361 2013-05-08 03:53:46 <gmaxwell> Usually release notes will be written around the time the software becomes a release candidate.
362 2013-05-08 03:53:48 <hctib> That's exactly what I was looking for, thanks
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367 2013-05-08 03:54:19 <gmaxwell> You can see the list of changes directly at https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commits/master
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383 2013-05-08 04:16:56 <[269]gbg_> How exactly do I set rescan=false on importprivkey?
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389 2013-05-08 04:19:41 <gbg> nm, I got it
390 2013-05-08 04:19:56 <gbg> just 'false', not 'rescan=false'
391 2013-05-08 04:20:08 <gbg> also, has to be the third param
392 2013-05-08 04:21:02 <nsh> parameter ordering: it's what's for breakfast!
393 2013-05-08 04:21:41 SPD-13 has quit (Quit: Page closed)
394 2013-05-08 04:23:20 <gbg> so if I want no rescan then I must have a label
395 2013-05-08 04:23:29 <gbg> and that's arbitrary
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397 2013-05-08 04:24:18 * nsh gesticulates ignorance
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399 2013-05-08 04:26:19 <Luke-Jr> sipa: ping
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410 2013-05-08 04:39:51 <Tril_> gbg try "" ?
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498 2013-05-08 06:16:34 <h2odysee> is there a place to download a fairly recent snapshot of the blockchain?
499 2013-05-08 06:17:00 <cjd> google: bootstrap.dat
500 2013-05-08 06:17:12 <cjd> not that recent but less than like a year old
501 2013-05-08 06:17:20 XertroV has joined
502 2013-05-08 06:17:23 <h2odysee> thx
503 2013-05-08 06:17:49 [\\\] has joined
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505 2013-05-08 06:19:18 <Luke-Jr> h2odysee: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:6fe493ba606847eac163baf35aae9db319735482&dn=bootstrap.dat&tr=udp://tracker.openbittorrent.com:80&tr=udp://tracker.publicbt.com:80&tr=udp://tracker.ccc.de:80&tr=udp://tracker.istole.it:80
506 2013-05-08 06:20:08 <cjd> you can also get it from archive.org
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513 2013-05-08 06:24:26 <halcy0n3> does blockchain.info have an irc channel? they are a long way behind blockexplorer
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519 2013-05-08 06:31:13 <nsh> halcy0n3, no irc channel that i'm aware of, also i suspect the administrators have been informed
520 2013-05-08 06:31:26 <halcy0n3> no problems.
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525 2013-05-08 06:33:42 <halcy0n3> yep. they just lost connection to all nodes.
526 2013-05-08 06:34:13 <gmaxwell> wumpus: sometimes I don't know when it's my weird curmudgeonly CLI preferences showing or when something is actually broken. :)
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650 2013-05-08 09:35:25 <sipa> Luke-Jr: uintmax_t is 64-bit on both x86_64 and x86, afaik
651 2013-05-08 09:35:35 <sipa> Luke-Jr: pong
652 2013-05-08 09:35:58 <Luke-Jr> sipa: that was what I expected - wouldn't it be faster to use 64-bit instead of 32-bit like we do now? :p
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655 2013-05-08 09:36:38 <Luke-Jr> sipa: did you have SF upload access? backport rc3s have 3 sigs on Linux builds now (win32 soon)
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661 2013-05-08 09:37:42 <sipa> Luke-Jr: oh, yes
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665 2013-05-08 09:37:58 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i assumed that was impossible because we needed multiplications
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669 2013-05-08 09:38:34 <Luke-Jr> sipa: hmm, maybe. I thought x86_64 at least did have a 128-bit type just for multiplication results, though
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671 2013-05-08 09:38:56 c_k has joined
672 2013-05-08 09:38:58 <sipa> Luke-Jr: it does, but it's not standard and bla bla
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674 2013-05-08 09:39:15 <Luke-Jr> âº
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698 2013-05-08 09:52:00 <Dom__> does anyone know where in the bitcoin source a public key is converted to a wallet address?
699 2013-05-08 09:53:26 drizztbsd has joined
700 2013-05-08 09:53:36 <sipa> CPubKey (key.h) -> CKeyId (key.h) -> CTxDestination (script.h) -> CBitcoinAddress (base58.h)
701 2013-05-08 09:53:48 <nsh> sipa++
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708 2013-05-08 09:59:33 <Dom__> thanks:)
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714 2013-05-08 10:13:22 <jaromil> Guys, I'd love to have bitcoin bills stamped with Charles Ramsey's face. hope someone brings his ascii portrait in the blockchain.
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716 2013-05-08 10:16:09 <Dom__> I maybe missing something here, but does anywhere in the code actually make use of the checksum included in the address? Only address checks I can find is to see if it's valid base58.
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718 2013-05-08 10:17:18 <Dom__> ignore that: I'm guessing it's done in ExtractDestination (e.g. if that fails, then it's invalid)
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733 2013-05-08 10:41:59 <sipa> Dom__: no, the checksum only exists in the base58 representation
734 2013-05-08 10:42:10 <sipa> Dom__: see base58.h and DecodeBase58Check
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736 2013-05-08 10:43:22 <Dom__> aah, I see it now, thanks:)
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761 2013-05-08 11:09:17 <Dom__> What sort of range is the number of processing units on a mining ASIC within? Is it considerably more than a GPU, or do ASICs get their speed from just being faster rather than more of them?
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777 2013-05-08 11:21:05 <Luke-Jr> Dom__: depends on the device
778 2013-05-08 11:21:28 <Luke-Jr> Dom__: Avalon/ASICMiner chips are like 300 Mh/s each, whereas BFL's are more like 4 Gh/s each
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780 2013-05-08 11:23:05 ville- is now known as ville---
781 2013-05-08 11:23:56 <Dom__> I understand the difference in hashrate, but is what I'm wondering is that hashrate achieved by parallelisation (if that's even a word) or just by faster processing?
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789 2013-05-08 11:27:57 <nsh> Dom__, it's a combination of streamlined architecture (you can pretty much tailor the arrangement of logic gates to the mining operation) and parallelisation
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792 2013-05-08 11:28:32 <Dom__> okay, thanks:)
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824 2013-05-08 12:08:03 <hctib> hello I'm researching a for blog post. I just read the github forum about pull request 2577. What is the discussion about fees for 0.8.2. Is there discussion about the fee required for transactions with outputs less than .01 BTC?
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828 2013-05-08 12:10:20 <hctib> 2577 talks about dynamic adjusting of fees. Is this in a separate pull request.
829 2013-05-08 12:13:27 <hctib> found it 2582
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831 2013-05-08 12:14:38 <kinlo> that's for the optional fee
832 2013-05-08 12:15:02 <kinlo> and 2577 is about how high the fee's should be, not when to require fee's
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834 2013-05-08 12:15:11 <kinlo> so it doesn't touch the 0.01 yet
835 2013-05-08 12:16:00 <kinlo> also, I don't think it should be changed yet - we're talking about 1 dollar... you shouldn't send someone a value below a dollar :)
836 2013-05-08 12:16:20 <hctib> so as of now the .01 is not addressed in 0.8.2? Also is the .0005 going away in 0.8.2? I just want to have the facts for my blog post.
837 2013-05-08 12:16:35 <kinlo> no and no
838 2013-05-08 12:16:39 <kinlo> eh
839 2013-05-08 12:16:57 <kinlo> yes and no, the 0.01 isn't going to be changed afaik, and the 0.005 is not going away
840 2013-05-08 12:17:21 <kinlo> the whole idea is that the miners will be able to configure more about what to put into a block and what not
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843 2013-05-08 12:17:45 <kinlo> and other users about what to propagate trough the network and what not
844 2013-05-08 12:17:53 da2ce7 has joined
845 2013-05-08 12:18:10 <kinlo> but afaik there isn't going to change anything about the fee's just yet
846 2013-05-08 12:18:47 <hctib> OK, so the rules to relay aren't changing. That makes a blog entry easy. I just need to discuss 2577.
847 2013-05-08 12:18:58 icellan has joined
848 2013-05-08 12:20:43 <hctib> the fee relay rules that is. Thanks kinlo
849 2013-05-08 12:21:01 <kinlo> fee relay rules, not sure I get that :)
850 2013-05-08 12:21:08 LainZ has joined
851 2013-05-08 12:21:34 <kinlo> but besides of adding a new relay rule - nothing to do with fees
852 2013-05-08 12:22:04 <kinlo> there are no changes described in those 2 pull request, they just change how to configure those options, they are not changing the options
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854 2013-05-08 12:22:33 <kinlo> you'd better discuss the fact that there are new rules on your blog :)
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857 2013-05-08 12:24:11 <Matt_boyd> Hey
858 2013-05-08 12:24:24 <hctib> fee relay rules: 1) .0005 required if output of less than .01. and 2) fee of .0005*floor(kb) for high priority transactions. and 3) fee of .0005*cieling(kb) for low priority transactions.
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860 2013-05-08 12:24:51 <Matt_boyd> I have a question about testnet, can anyone answer?
861 2013-05-08 12:24:55 Bjander has joined
862 2013-05-08 12:25:06 <hctib> hey matt_boyd
863 2013-05-08 12:25:12 <Matt_boyd> hey
864 2013-05-08 12:25:27 <hctib> I don't know about the test net.
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867 2013-05-08 12:25:51 <Matt_boyd> Alright, I just wanted to know about the -testnet on the bitcoind server
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872 2013-05-08 12:29:44 <volante> is there a way i can build bitcoin-qt on mac from cli, without needing to use qt creator?
873 2013-05-08 12:29:46 Nash has joined
874 2013-05-08 12:30:07 <sivu> qmake && make ?
875 2013-05-08 12:30:42 zer0def has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
876 2013-05-08 12:31:02 <volante> that gives me a whole lot of warnings and errors
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879 2013-05-08 12:32:30 <volante> http://pastebin.com/kkN0wExU
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885 2013-05-08 12:40:09 <volante> i did a make clean and tried again, and now the error is this:
886 2013-05-08 12:40:11 <volante> make: *** No rule to make target `/git/bitcoin/src/leveldb/libleveldb.a', needed by `bitcoin-qt'.
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897 2013-05-08 12:53:45 <volante> anyone here able to build on osx?
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900 2013-05-08 12:57:54 <hctib> thank you for all your help bye
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971 2013-05-08 13:54:17 <btcls> hi
972 2013-05-08 13:54:36 <btcls> any techies around i can ask a question to ?
973 2013-05-08 13:54:57 <lianj> Dont ask to ask, just ask
974 2013-05-08 13:55:26 <btcls> I want to put a unique QR code on a product that brings the person to a unique url
975 2013-05-08 13:55:54 <btcls> at that unique url is a new bitcoin address that has never been used and contains some btc
976 2013-05-08 13:56:30 <btcls> from my understanding they can check the balance of that address ACCURATELY only if it has never been used ?? is that correctg ?
977 2013-05-08 13:57:37 <lianj> no. in fact, if it has never been used it can't have any balance on it
978 2013-05-08 13:57:58 <btcls> lianj: well i guess used once because i put some btc on it
979 2013-05-08 13:58:12 <Dom__> if you lookup the balance of an address that hasn't ever been used and has no balance,nothing will be returned (or it will return something suggesting not found)
980 2013-05-08 13:58:40 <Dom__> but if that address has had coins sent to it in the past, you would be able to lookup the balance of that address
981 2013-05-08 13:59:08 <cjd> assuming "never been used" == "never paid anyone" (the only reading which makes the question sane) there is no difference
982 2013-05-08 13:59:28 <cjd> whether it has paid someone or not, checking balance is equally accurate
983 2013-05-08 13:59:41 <Dom__> there is. if it's been used to receive coins in the past, the balance will show.
984 2013-05-08 14:00:12 <Dom__> unless it gets pruned maybe....? I'm out of my depth already:/
985 2013-05-08 14:01:16 <sipa> wallets are independent from the block chain
986 2013-05-08 14:01:25 <sipa> wallets track whatever addresses they own
987 2013-05-08 14:02:12 JDuke128 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
988 2013-05-08 14:02:19 <btcls> okay so i send out an invoice with the unique url/QR code ... that person enters my unique invoice number ...and the btc address is revealed ... he checks the address and it has money on it ...pays my invoice ...and solidifies my contract by removing the btc at that address
989 2013-05-08 14:02:43 <sipa> what address is revealed?
990 2013-05-08 14:02:51 <sipa> all you care about is that they pay you
991 2013-05-08 14:02:52 <NxTitle> wait what? are you exchanging bitcoins for bitcoins?
992 2013-05-08 14:03:01 <btcls> the public btc address ...
993 2013-05-08 14:03:04 <sipa> you don't need to track what address it comes from (hint: no such thing exists)
994 2013-05-08 14:03:09 <NxTitle> ^
995 2013-05-08 14:03:19 <btcls> after paying my invoice ... i send him the private key to access those funds
996 2013-05-08 14:03:20 <TD> what are you actually trying to do? accept payment?
997 2013-05-08 14:03:28 <TD> why are you sending private keys around?
998 2013-05-08 14:04:00 <btcls> TD: that is a good question ...why would i do it that way .... gotta think some more ...ty ty
999 2013-05-08 14:04:06 JDuke128 has joined
1000 2013-05-08 14:04:26 <NxTitle> btcls: so you are trying to accept payment?
1001 2013-05-08 14:04:35 <cjd> Added 1 addresses from fcf4:e309:14b5:5498:cafd:4f59:4b9c:7f84: 78 tried, 15032 new
1002 2013-05-08 14:04:37 <ali1234> he's trying to sell bitcoins
1003 2013-05-08 14:04:38 <cjd> =)
1004 2013-05-08 14:04:56 <NxTitle> ali1234: for bitcoins?
1005 2013-05-08 14:05:04 <sipa> cjd: cjdns?
1006 2013-05-08 14:05:08 <cjd> yeah
1007 2013-05-08 14:05:10 <ali1234> no in return for payment of an invoice... payment currency not specified
1008 2013-05-08 14:05:13 <cjd> and I didn't do anything
1009 2013-05-08 14:05:16 <btcls> NxTitle: yes payment for a physical product that has some btc as a bonous sooo to speak
1010 2013-05-08 14:05:27 <cjd> I just happened to be watching debug.log and it scrolled by
1011 2013-05-08 14:05:32 <sipa> btcls: just ask for a refund address and send coins there
1012 2013-05-08 14:05:45 <sipa> don't send private keys
1013 2013-05-08 14:06:25 <btcls> okay ... i guess what i am trying to prove to the customer is that there is actually bitcoin waiting for him
1014 2013-05-08 14:06:53 <btcls> and he can check an address to see that it is there
1015 2013-05-08 14:06:58 <TD> but that proof is not very useful. after the purchaser checks, you could just move the money
1016 2013-05-08 14:07:02 <NxTitle> that doesn't really prove much
1017 2013-05-08 14:07:02 <NxTitle> yeah
1018 2013-05-08 14:07:26 <btcls> yeah i suppose i could
1019 2013-05-08 14:07:35 <cjd> never underestimate the power of security theater
1020 2013-05-08 14:07:37 <NxTitle> you could easily show the address of the guy who has like 100k BTC - it doesn't necessarily prove you have access to it or that it's waiting for them
1021 2013-05-08 14:08:03 <btcls> NxTitle: you are right
1022 2013-05-08 14:08:15 <ali1234> this is why escrow services exist
1023 2013-05-08 14:08:28 <cjd> there's no security in satoshidice's little send-dust-transactions scheme but for some reason people think it proves honesty of the system
1024 2013-05-08 14:08:38 <ali1234> there's no other general way to solve the problem
1025 2013-05-08 14:08:46 <Dom__> from the wiki: "Only the headers are necessary for verifying received transactions -- full blocks are needed only by generators" what information regarding transactions is stored in the block header? I thought at least one other transaction and a few hashes from the merkle tree were required to verify a transaction is in a block...
1026 2013-05-08 14:08:48 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1027 2013-05-08 14:09:14 <NxTitle> cjd: I think the reason they do that is not for security, but to show you lost a bet (not agreeing with it, but yeah)
1028 2013-05-08 14:09:18 <jaakkos> cjd: satoshidice is actually provably fair
1029 2013-05-08 14:09:22 <NxTitle> and using the blockchain to do so
1030 2013-05-08 14:10:03 <sipa> btcls: you can send a messaged signed by the private key
1031 2013-05-08 14:10:32 <NxTitle> that would prove you own it, but doesn't necessarily prove you'll move it - for that you'll need a trusted escrow
1032 2013-05-08 14:10:40 <Scrat> can't you also send dust to prove that you own an address? if you can't sign that is
1033 2013-05-08 14:10:44 <btcls> sipa: i have not read up on using messages and private keys yet
1034 2013-05-08 14:10:53 <NxTitle> Scrat: yes, but that pollutes the blockchain
1035 2013-05-08 14:10:54 <Scrat> inb4 from :p
1036 2013-05-08 14:11:21 <NxTitle> and if you have a private key, you can sign with it
1037 2013-05-08 14:11:36 <Scrat> NxTitle: of course, and I'm against that
1038 2013-05-08 14:11:41 ThomasV has joined
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1040 2013-05-08 14:12:09 <cjd> 09:46 < jaakkos> cjd: satoshidice is actually provably fair <-- QED
1041 2013-05-08 14:12:24 <NxTitle> well, it's provably fair after the fact
1042 2013-05-08 14:12:34 <NxTitle> once a day passes and they release the secret
1043 2013-05-08 14:13:17 <jaakkos> cjd: each day they choose a secret, whose hash they have published in advance. the dice number is derived from the secret and the txhash you create. when the day is over, they publish the secret.
1044 2013-05-08 14:13:24 malaimo has joined
1045 2013-05-08 14:13:28 <NxTitle> yes
1046 2013-05-08 14:13:32 <cjd> ahh
1047 2013-05-08 14:13:37 <jaakkos> (and the derivation function is a cryptographic hash function)
1048 2013-05-08 14:13:37 robocoin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1049 2013-05-08 14:13:38 <gaantr2> Are there any tools for checking a bitcoinj wallet?
1050 2013-05-08 14:13:44 <NxTitle> and at that point you can go do the math yourself against the blockchain and verify it
1051 2013-05-08 14:13:50 <cjd> now what I don't understand is how this cjdns node found me
1052 2013-05-08 14:14:05 <NxTitle> for the current day however, you cannot prove it
1053 2013-05-08 14:14:18 <cjd> I did not do *anything* I am natted except for cjdns and I have 9 connections
1054 2013-05-08 14:14:42 <sipa> cjd: bitcoind probably broadcasted your public cjdns address?
1055 2013-05-08 14:14:58 <sipa> and some other node was also running cjdns and picked it up?
1056 2013-05-08 14:15:05 <cjd> I guess so
1057 2013-05-08 14:15:15 <sipa> though... that IP range should be considered unroutable aaik
1058 2013-05-08 14:15:28 <cjd> I have a cjdns ipv6 address, a normal ipv6 address (tunneled over cjdns) and ofc an ipv4 (natted)
1059 2013-05-08 14:15:55 <cjd> so it must detect and broadcast them all...
1060 2013-05-08 14:16:36 <cjd> or perhaps it bcasts my cjdns ipv6 but not my normal one if the code did not make provision for multiple ipv6 addresses
1061 2013-05-08 14:16:54 <jouke> gaantr2: depends what you want to do.
1062 2013-05-08 14:16:55 <cjd> which would make sense as well since I have no incoming ipv6 connections
1063 2013-05-08 14:17:08 robocoin has joined
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1065 2013-05-08 14:17:08 robocoin has joined
1066 2013-05-08 14:19:07 panzer has joined
1067 2013-05-08 14:19:15 <gaantr2> my program isn't receiving a transaction and I'm trying to find out why.
1068 2013-05-08 14:19:41 <sipa> what's the txid?
1069 2013-05-08 14:20:09 <gaantr2> c56053c4fc54390770702e1ebe80424b71828a07c4b2c8aee04fd63426dc251c
1070 2013-05-08 14:20:09 <gaantr2> \
1071 2013-05-08 14:20:43 <jouke> gaantr2: there is a wallettool in the bitcoinj repo
1072 2013-05-08 14:21:19 <gaantr2> okay I'll try that jouke, thanks
1073 2013-05-08 14:21:55 Bjander has joined
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1075 2013-05-08 14:24:47 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1076 2013-05-08 14:24:55 Bjander has joined
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1081 2013-05-08 14:30:44 <cjd> ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : inputs already spent
1082 2013-05-08 14:30:47 <cjd> badnode :P
1083 2013-05-08 14:32:13 btcls has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1084 2013-05-08 14:33:01 wumpus is now known as wumpus
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1086 2013-05-08 14:33:39 cc_8 is now known as alphaguru
1087 2013-05-08 14:34:45 XertroV has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1088 2013-05-08 14:35:47 systemParanoid has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1089 2013-05-08 14:36:48 <cjd> CTxMemPool::accept() : accepted d9d3fdef79fcc0c9c340fd0a9bfa0c8ed9ec793027ae4a2b8f2d59ac15842a9c (poolsz 1839)
1090 2013-05-08 14:36:48 <cjd> received block 00000000000000ac99e5dc770d986bb7479e7cf6f86d9471a06e9ed0b44bacd4
1091 2013-05-08 14:36:48 <cjd> Committing 3387 changed transactions to coin database...
1092 2013-05-08 14:36:53 Nash has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1093 2013-05-08 14:36:59 <cjd> CTxMemPool::accept() : accepted e50d26f5393e86a060cfe9b0922b346259ad5ced48a85bf4845a3a757d79758a (poolsz 1032)
1094 2013-05-08 14:37:10 <cjd> does this imply poor saturation?
1095 2013-05-08 14:37:11 kantlive- has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
1096 2013-05-08 14:37:35 <cjd> poolsz dropping by 800 when 3387 transactions are committed
1097 2013-05-08 14:37:57 <cjd> oh right
1098 2013-05-08 14:38:05 <cjd> my node filters dust :]
1099 2013-05-08 14:38:56 sacrelege has joined
1100 2013-05-08 14:39:24 kantlivelong has joined
1101 2013-05-08 14:39:48 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1102 2013-05-08 14:39:55 Bjander has joined
1103 2013-05-08 14:40:41 <sipa> cjd: changed transactions is typically much higher than the number of transactions in the block
1104 2013-05-08 14:40:53 <sipa> cjd: as blocks also modify the state of transactions they consume inputs from
1105 2013-05-08 14:41:03 <cjd> ahh gotchya
1106 2013-05-08 14:41:43 n5 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1107 2013-05-08 14:41:48 <cjd> I need like dtrace or something so i can be like "I wanna know *that*" and get exact information dumps from the code
1108 2013-05-08 14:42:11 mE\Ta has joined
1109 2013-05-08 14:42:55 <cjd> cjdns has this Log_debug() macro which is way overused but it does nothing unless you send a request for logs, and ofc you can disable it at compile time
1110 2013-05-08 14:44:08 <TD> google servers export statistics via HTTP using a simple "key value..." page
1111 2013-05-08 14:44:17 <TD> there are tools that scrape those pages and calculate derived stats over it
1112 2013-05-08 14:44:36 <TD> it'd be nice if bitcoind had something like that. there's getinfo/getpeerinfo etc but it's not quite the same thing
1113 2013-05-08 14:44:53 mE\Ta_ has joined
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1115 2013-05-08 14:45:32 <cjd> ahh, that sounds like kstat
1116 2013-05-08 14:46:16 <wumpus> yes, it doesn't really keep overall statistics at the moment
1117 2013-05-08 14:46:25 <cjd> cjdns Log.h is more like dtrace, you send it a request with the names of the source files and/or line numbers you're interested in and it will output logs through a udp socket
1118 2013-05-08 14:46:50 <TD> heh
1119 2013-05-08 14:47:31 <TD> i just did a global search/replace on bitcoinj and introduced a bunch of errors (missing imports). but whenever i click run, IntelliJ tries to compile, opens up an editor at the spot with the undefined class then immediately auto-fixes it for me. so i just have to keep clicking run until it works
1120 2013-05-08 14:47:40 <TD> not encountered that kind of thing before :)
1121 2013-05-08 14:47:49 Muis has joined
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1123 2013-05-08 14:48:12 <cjd> fuckit.js is making it's way to other languages
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1125 2013-05-08 14:49:07 [skrewtape] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1126 2013-05-08 14:50:27 daybyter has joined
1127 2013-05-08 14:50:38 <TD> heh
1128 2013-05-08 14:51:04 Nash has joined
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1131 2013-05-08 14:53:24 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
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1135 2013-05-08 14:56:43 [Author] has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
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1137 2013-05-08 14:58:12 andyh2 has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
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1139 2013-05-08 14:59:32 fbettag has joined
1140 2013-05-08 14:59:46 <fbettag> morning
1141 2013-05-08 15:00:17 realazthat_ is now known as realazthat
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1144 2013-05-08 15:01:05 <fbettag> anyone here got an asic design ready for production and wants to share it (for money or free)?
1145 2013-05-08 15:06:27 serp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1146 2013-05-08 15:06:40 gfinn has joined
1147 2013-05-08 15:07:04 <cjd> you might try looking at FPGA programming code since IIRC the same stuff in an FPGA is what is burned to an ASIC
1148 2013-05-08 15:07:11 michagogo has joined
1149 2013-05-08 15:08:06 <fbettag> cjd: thanks
1150 2013-05-08 15:08:36 <sipa> it seems very unlikely that someone would be willing to share a production design for free :D
1151 2013-05-08 15:08:38 Nash has joined
1152 2013-05-08 15:08:44 <fbettag> sipa: why not?
1153 2013-05-08 15:09:07 <fbettag> anyway https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=171041.0 is also an interesting read
1154 2013-05-08 15:09:37 <sipa> fbettag: would you ask the Coca-Cola company for their recipe?
1155 2013-05-08 15:09:38 <helo> as far as i know asic designs have to be tailored specifically for the foundry they will be created at
1156 2013-05-08 15:09:49 <sipa> and expect to get it for free?
1157 2013-05-08 15:10:11 <fbettag> sipa: i still think that the bitcoin community is more open and sharing than any sodapop conglomerate
1158 2013-05-08 15:10:28 <fbettag> at least i'd still like to believe in open source people (like me)
1159 2013-05-08 15:10:51 Squidicuz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1160 2013-05-08 15:11:08 Toresh has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1161 2013-05-08 15:11:28 <helo> open source designs for things that cost millions of dollars to actually execute aren't very common
1162 2013-05-08 15:11:47 zooko has joined
1163 2013-05-08 15:12:03 <sipa> fbettag: i'm sure that's the case, but not for things that require huge investments
1164 2013-05-08 15:12:14 Toresh has joined
1165 2013-05-08 15:12:18 Azetab has joined
1166 2013-05-08 15:12:35 <fbettag> helo: that's how the industry started
1167 2013-05-08 15:12:42 <fbettag> a few geeks found some stuff, shared it
1168 2013-05-08 15:12:46 <fbettag> others built on it
1169 2013-05-08 15:12:46 [Author] has joined
1170 2013-05-08 15:13:16 serp has joined
1171 2013-05-08 15:13:41 <fbettag> force-fed innovation through investments of big companies produce profitable results, usually not the good ones
1172 2013-05-08 15:14:01 <zooko> Hello! Could someone give me a link to torrent the blockchain file? I'll write it down this time, so if the download fails for a third time, I won't have to post this request in here for a fourth time, tomorrow.
1173 2013-05-08 15:14:07 MiningBuddy has joined
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1175 2013-05-08 15:14:08 MiningBuddy has joined
1176 2013-05-08 15:14:45 <sipa> zooko: google for 'bootstrap.dat'
1177 2013-05-08 15:15:16 <zooko> sipa: thanks.
1178 2013-05-08 15:15:22 <Ry4an> zooko: fancy seeing you here. :)
1179 2013-05-08 15:15:44 <zooko> Hiya, Ry4an. âº
1180 2013-05-08 15:15:59 asa1024 has joined
1181 2013-05-08 15:16:15 <MC1984> magnet:?xt=urn:btih:6FE493BA606847EAC163BAF35AAE9DB319735482&dn=bootstrap.dat
1182 2013-05-08 15:16:42 Nash has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1183 2013-05-08 15:16:47 <Ry4an> is the midnight oil project BTC related or are you just hanging out?
1184 2013-05-08 15:17:35 <cjd> this is a bit confusing
1185 2013-05-08 15:17:36 <cjd> user@ubnta8:~/wrk/cjdns-pvt$ grep "AddLocal" ~/.bitcoin/debug.log
1186 2013-05-08 15:17:36 <cjd> AddLocal(64.15.65.115:8333,1)
1187 2013-05-08 15:17:36 <cjd> AddLocal([2001:470:b040:101:fc88:dfd0:89d4:abfe]:8333,1)
1188 2013-05-08 15:18:00 <cjd> my cjdns address was not AddLocal'd
1189 2013-05-08 15:18:07 <cjd> but still someone has connected to me
1190 2013-05-08 15:19:15 <zooko> MC1984: thanks.
1191 2013-05-08 15:19:40 <zooko> Ry4an: that project is over. It was simply helping a Bitcoin startup search for candidates for Director of Security.
1192 2013-05-08 15:19:44 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1193 2013-05-08 15:20:10 Diapolis has joined
1194 2013-05-08 15:20:12 <zooko> Ry4an: I'm going to the Bitcoin conference next week!
1195 2013-05-08 15:21:29 Michail1_ is now known as Michail1
1196 2013-05-08 15:21:55 t7 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1197 2013-05-08 15:23:13 XertroV has joined
1198 2013-05-08 15:24:21 <Ry4an> I'm sad to be missing it.
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1212 2013-05-08 15:36:13 <denisx> what happens on the 15th of may?
1213 2013-05-08 15:37:10 <TD> maxlock violations rule goes away
1214 2013-05-08 15:37:10 <cjd> IIRC the limitations on transactions are lifted and if you use 7.x then you will desync from the chain
1215 2013-05-08 15:37:11 <MC1984> we fork
1216 2013-05-08 15:37:17 <MC1984> maybe
1217 2013-05-08 15:37:42 <denisx> ah ok, only old clients have a problem then
1218 2013-05-08 15:37:47 <michagogo> cjd: Only if another too-big block is found
1219 2013-05-08 15:37:47 <MC1984> well the miners will
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1223 2013-05-08 15:38:13 <michagogo> MC1984: This was a known problem about 2 months ago, all big miners have already switched
1224 2013-05-08 15:38:37 <cjd> we ought to intentionally find such a block in a controlled way when everyone is on notice at the time
1225 2013-05-08 15:38:40 <MC1984> but now they will all mine large blocks
1226 2013-05-08 15:38:53 <michagogo> oh
1227 2013-05-08 15:39:03 <michagogo> cjd: Hmm, that's not a bad idea
1228 2013-05-08 15:39:49 <cjd> so bitcoin is using cjdns
1229 2013-05-08 15:39:52 <cjd> and I have no clue why
1230 2013-05-08 15:39:54 <MC1984> wont it b the first time that bitcoin is clear to hit its blocklimit
1231 2013-05-08 15:40:02 <cjd> it claims not to be advertizing that address
1232 2013-05-08 15:40:04 g0thX has joined
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1234 2013-05-08 15:40:35 <helo> getting quite a flood of nonstandard transactions
1235 2013-05-08 15:40:46 <helo> ~80/min
1236 2013-05-08 15:40:55 <cjd> are you running git head?
1237 2013-05-08 15:41:04 <helo> yes
1238 2013-05-08 15:41:04 <michagogo> cjdns?
1239 2013-05-08 15:41:19 <cjd> helo: it's the dust rules pwning satoshidust
1240 2013-05-08 15:41:23 <helo> ahh, neat
1241 2013-05-08 15:41:31 <cjd> satisfying ;)
1242 2013-05-08 15:41:36 <cjd> michagogo: googleit
1243 2013-05-08 15:41:36 <helo> yeah really :D
1244 2013-05-08 15:43:00 <cjd> ok
1245 2013-05-08 15:43:21 <cjd> the other guy has to be announcing his address and I randomly connected to him, now he knows my address
1246 2013-05-08 15:43:24 <cjd> this makes sense
1247 2013-05-08 15:43:44 g0thX has quit (Client Quit)
1248 2013-05-08 15:44:14 <sipa> cjd: if your address is not AddLocal'd, it shouldn't ever be broadcast
1249 2013-05-08 15:46:18 <cjd> indeed
1250 2013-05-08 15:46:28 rdymac has joined
1251 2013-05-08 15:47:44 <cjd> and yet I have been connected to no less than 3 cjdns nodes
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1254 2013-05-08 15:48:16 <Ry4an> did the person to whom you connected advertize your address or is that not done?
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1258 2013-05-08 15:49:40 <cjd> https://ezcrypt.it/Nr6n#XevrGpnvLskf01XD24P8WgnO
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1262 2013-05-08 15:52:42 <cjd> oh nvm
1263 2013-05-08 15:52:47 <cjd> only 1 is bitcoind
1264 2013-05-08 15:52:54 <cjd> the other 2 are portscanners
1265 2013-05-08 15:53:07 <cjd> cjdnsland has *LOTS* of portscanners
1266 2013-05-08 15:53:38 <cjd> but I know who runs that bitcoind and it is vanilla
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1277 2013-05-08 16:08:33 <XRPTrader2> cjd is bitcoind working in hyperboria now?
1278 2013-05-08 16:09:59 <cjd> apparently yes
1279 2013-05-08 16:10:05 <cjd> but the reason is unknown
1280 2013-05-08 16:10:09 <cjd> likely bug
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1282 2013-05-08 16:10:24 <XRPTrader2> haha ok
1283 2013-05-08 16:10:32 <cjd> unless the guy running the other node portscanned me and then -addnode'd me
1284 2013-05-08 16:10:39 <cjd> he's been known to do stuff like that
1285 2013-05-08 16:12:03 <Ry4an> heh
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1381 2013-05-08 17:42:36 <jgarzik> 2013-05-08 17:19:08 ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : nonstandard transaction type
1382 2013-05-08 17:42:36 <jgarzik> 2013-05-08 17:19:08 ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : nonstandard transaction type
1383 2013-05-08 17:42:36 <jgarzik> 2013-05-08 17:19:08 ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : nonstandard transaction type
1384 2013-05-08 17:42:36 <jgarzik> 2013-05-08 17:19:10 ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : nonstandard transaction type
1385 2013-05-08 17:42:36 <jgarzik> 2013-05-08 17:19:10 ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : nonstandard transaction type
1386 2013-05-08 17:42:38 <jgarzik> hrm
1387 2013-05-08 17:42:51 <jgarzik> We should log more, for these events.
1388 2013-05-08 17:43:51 <jgarzik> Heck, log the whole transaction to a secondary, optional log.
1389 2013-05-08 17:43:57 <jgarzik> debug-tx.log
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1393 2013-05-08 17:44:17 George__ has joined
1394 2013-05-08 17:44:40 <jgarzik> Perhaps keep a map of TX hashes logged in past 24 hours, so as to avoid repeatedly logging the same crap over and over.
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1403 2013-05-08 17:49:19 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: in-memory circular buffers that can be dumped on command perhaps?
1404 2013-05-08 17:49:34 sydna has joined
1405 2013-05-08 17:49:41 <gmaxwell> (and perhaps get auto-dumped on program crash)
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1407 2013-05-08 17:50:54 * nsh frowns
1408 2013-05-08 17:52:09 <zooko> MC1984: what's the md5sum of the bootstrap.dat file that you posted a link to?
1409 2013-05-08 17:53:11 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: basically, my thinking there is: often when I need logs from someone/someplace â it's already too late to turn them on... and logging a ton of data all the time just in case is a bit obnoxious.
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1412 2013-05-08 17:53:54 <Ry4an> zooko: some hashes in a signed message here: http://eu2.bitcoincharts.com/blockchain/
1413 2013-05-08 17:54:16 MaybeJustNothing has joined
1414 2013-05-08 17:54:20 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: Well, maybe I'm being frugal, but I wouldn't want to waste memory on known-bad tx data, even if the total capacity is limited. The main issue with logging is that we refuse the same garbage multiple times quite often, which would result in repeated logging.
1415 2013-05-08 17:54:34 <MC1984> i dont even have an md5 generator on this machine
1416 2013-05-08 17:54:47 <jgarzik> Perhaps that is "not an issue" and we should just log the full raw tx
1417 2013-05-08 17:54:54 <zooko> Ry4an: I believe that's an older bootstrap.dat. No matter. I just haven't used transmission-cli before and I wasn't sure if it wrote out the complete one or a partial/scrambled one...
1418 2013-05-08 17:54:59 <MC1984> its the magnet of the torrnent garzik made
1419 2013-05-08 17:55:01 <zooko> MC1984: sha256? blake2? âº
1420 2013-05-08 17:55:08 <nsh> gmaxwell, that's why we were given logrotate
1421 2013-05-08 17:55:12 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Now I am filling your disk with my invalid txn flood. :P
1422 2013-05-08 17:55:33 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: ...which may be done anyway, just at a lesser volume, thanks to error logging
1423 2013-05-08 17:55:49 <gmaxwell> Indeed _but_ thats no reason to make it worse. :)
1424 2013-05-08 17:56:00 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: thus, optional
1425 2013-05-08 17:56:08 <phantomcircuit> iirc debug.log wraps @ 2GB doesn't it?
1426 2013-05-08 17:56:13 <gmaxwell> lol.
1427 2013-05-08 17:56:16 <gmaxwell> at restart.
1428 2013-05-08 17:56:16 <MC1984> zooko bittorrent is very good about data integrity
1429 2013-05-08 17:56:24 <MC1984> each piece is hashed
1430 2013-05-08 17:56:25 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, srsly
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1432 2013-05-08 17:56:35 <SomeoneWeird> lol thats pretty bad
1433 2013-05-08 17:56:36 phpwn has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1434 2013-05-08 17:56:43 <jgarzik> <shrug> debug.log is logrotate-able
1435 2013-05-08 17:56:47 <jgarzik> send a signal
1436 2013-05-08 17:56:56 <zooko> MC1984: I know. I wasn't sure about the user interface, like I Was explaining to Ry4an. It put it in an unexpected directory,. Oh well.
1437 2013-05-08 17:57:10 <MC1984> oh
1438 2013-05-08 17:57:13 <gmaxwell> ::nods:: I'm not objecting to that, but I think thats only of marginal use. The normal pattern is that someone shows up here "hey, this really weird thing happened".
1439 2013-05-08 17:57:22 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1440 2013-05-08 17:57:37 <MC1984> ive never used transmission, im sure you can force it to recheck the file if you want to make sure
1441 2013-05-08 17:57:44 <zooko> There are three versions of bootstrap.dat here, a .part, a "resume/bootstrap.dat", and one that got written into a directory that I didn't expect, namely ~/Download/. I'll bet that last one is complete. ;-)
1442 2013-05-08 17:57:44 <jgarzik> gmaxwell: It's also a bit silly to argue against filling the debug.log, when the "print full hashes" change did precisely what you are arguing against
1443 2013-05-08 17:57:57 <jgarzik> made flooding 2x or more easier
1444 2013-05-08 17:58:09 <MC1984> the partfile and resumefile are not it
1445 2013-05-08 17:58:13 <zooko> Okay I'll stop talking about this utterly tangetial stuff and cluttering up jgarzik and gmaxwell's IRC streams.
1446 2013-05-08 17:58:16 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
1447 2013-05-08 17:58:23 <MC1984> theyre things bittorrent does as part of its protocol
1448 2013-05-08 17:59:00 anarchy5 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1449 2013-05-08 17:59:26 <zooko> MC1984: I'm aware. ;-)
1450 2013-05-08 17:59:34 <jgarzik> zooko: Feel free. I have to go eat TexMex anyway. 1:35 EST, and no food eaten yet today.
1451 2013-05-08 17:59:38 <jgarzik> bbiab
1452 2013-05-08 17:59:54 <jgarzik> zooko: (I'm also the torrent maintainer)
1453 2013-05-08 18:00:22 <zooko> jgarzik: what do you mean the torrent maintainer?
1454 2013-05-08 18:00:24 <zooko> TexMex, yum.
1455 2013-05-08 18:00:34 n5 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1456 2013-05-08 18:01:08 George__ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1457 2013-05-08 18:01:12 <jgarzik> zooko: I generate the bootstrap.dat torrent
1458 2013-05-08 18:01:43 <MC1984> ok, i suppose you probably already know all that stuff.
1459 2013-05-08 18:01:52 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: 3x < 300x. In any case, I'm of the opinion that we should not be logging general behavior but when we do log the log ought to be actually useful. I don't think this is inconsistent. And indeed, I can see why 'log the whole txn if we reject it' fits that... but it also reminds me that we have a DOS attack vulnerability here.
1460 2013-05-08 18:02:03 <zooko> jgarzik: thanks!
1461 2013-05-08 18:02:17 takeyourhatoff has joined
1462 2013-05-08 18:02:26 <zooko> MC1984: haha! I do. I even may have contributed some ideas that worked their way through Bram Cohen's brain into bittorrent.
1463 2013-05-08 18:02:29 andyh2 has joined
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1465 2013-05-08 18:02:37 <zooko> But you can never underestimate the ability of software to be buggy...
1466 2013-05-08 18:02:45 <gmaxwell> Where I can send you 1gb data and use 2gb disk space. ... and exhaust your space before your rotation catches up.
1467 2013-05-08 18:02:46 <zooko> Err, never overestimate. Whatever. You know what I nean.
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1469 2013-05-08 18:03:05 <MC1984> ah cool
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1473 2013-05-08 18:05:12 <michagogo> jgarzik: When is a new torrent expected?
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1477 2013-05-08 18:07:13 <michagogo> jgarzik: Also, I understand that when you update to a new version of it, the existing data will count and I'll only need to download the data since the last checkpoint
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1482 2013-05-08 18:07:37 <michagogo> But will I be able to keep the old torrent running on the file that contains that data and then some?
1483 2013-05-08 18:07:49 <MC1984> that should technically work if the new data is simply appended
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1486 2013-05-08 18:08:36 <michagogo> MC1984: The seeding the old torrent off the new file part?
1487 2013-05-08 18:08:38 <etotheipi_> anyone have a link to a proper P2SH script in the blockchain and it's redeeming TxIN script?
1488 2013-05-08 18:08:39 <MC1984> im not so sure about two torrents operating ont he same file, depends if it gets locked?
1489 2013-05-08 18:09:03 <etotheipi_> *its
1490 2013-05-08 18:09:11 <MC1984> im sure ive done it a couple of times though
1491 2013-05-08 18:09:14 nsillik has joined
1492 2013-05-08 18:09:58 <etotheipi_> Luke-Jr: I'm sure you've done some P2SH stuff...
1493 2013-05-08 18:10:01 <MC1984> well wait, if its just bootstrap.dat but bigger it wont work because the infohash will be different
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1495 2013-05-08 18:10:15 <MC1984> if the files are split it would work
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1497 2013-05-08 18:11:09 <MC1984> new torrent supercedes the old one anyway, just drop a magnet to the new one into the comments protocol of the old one and then get rid of it
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1501 2013-05-08 18:14:33 <MC1984> zooko i have an md5 utility now, fwiw it gave me 1b437d44213b7d98c974546b55834d10 for bootstrap.dat
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1503 2013-05-08 18:14:40 <zooko> MC1984: thanks!
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1505 2013-05-08 18:15:07 <zooko> MC1984: whoops: 6f34ed1e52247816e01d5877b77df14b Downloads/bootstrap.dat
1506 2013-05-08 18:15:15 <zooko> I probably just have a newer or older version than you do.
1507 2013-05-08 18:15:25 <zooko> -rw-r--r-- 1 zooko zooko 2491771562 May 8 11:42 Downloads/bootstrap.dat
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1509 2013-05-08 18:15:52 <MC1984> i copied the magnet from my own torrent, it should be the same
1510 2013-05-08 18:16:09 <MC1984> maybe this md5 thing is crap, i trust bittorrents hashing more
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1512 2013-05-08 18:17:02 <zooko> MC1984: haha! You should never underestimate the potential of your software to be buggy.
1513 2013-05-08 18:17:18 <MC1984> indeed
1514 2013-05-08 18:17:37 <zooko> Well, I guess I'll just fire up pynode and see what it thinks of this bootstrap.dat...
1515 2013-05-08 18:17:49 <sydna> MC1984: bit torrent uses MD5 too doesn't it?
1516 2013-05-08 18:18:00 <MC1984> sha1
1517 2013-05-08 18:18:28 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
1518 2013-05-08 18:18:49 <sydna> crazy.
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1520 2013-05-08 18:19:56 <MC1984> whats wrong with that, its only for file integrity
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1522 2013-05-08 18:20:14 <phantomcircuit> actually
1523 2013-05-08 18:20:20 <phantomcircuit> bittorrent uses a merkle root of sha1
1524 2013-05-08 18:20:42 <phantomcircuit> which is going to be much harder to manipulate than just the single sha1 hash
1525 2013-05-08 18:20:45 <zooko> Hiya phantomcircuit.
1526 2013-05-08 18:20:49 <MC1984> for the infohash or peices? or both?
1527 2013-05-08 18:21:10 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, hmm info hash is an sha1 of the root
1528 2013-05-08 18:21:16 <phantomcircuit> plus all the other info
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1530 2013-05-08 18:21:25 <phantomcircuit> zooko, uh hi
1531 2013-05-08 18:21:25 <MC1984> cool
1532 2013-05-08 18:21:39 <MC1984> merkles are cool i suppose
1533 2013-05-08 18:21:47 <MC1984> merkeles are magic, like dhts
1534 2013-05-08 18:21:49 <zooko> phantomcircuit: I used to be a customer of yours, of Intersango's.
1535 2013-05-08 18:22:00 <phantomcircuit> that's nice
1536 2013-05-08 18:23:14 <sipa> zooko: the was a bootstrap.dat created at the time of the 0.7.1 release, and a newer one at the time of the 0.8 release.
1537 2013-05-08 18:23:16 <denisx> where get transaction saved as long as there is no connection to the outside?
1538 2013-05-08 18:23:26 <sipa> denisx: wallet?
1539 2013-05-08 18:23:30 <sipa> denisx: mempool?
1540 2013-05-08 18:23:37 <zooko> sipa: Okay, thanks.
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1542 2013-05-08 18:23:50 <phantomcircuit> sipa, is bootstrap.dat limited to 2 GB in 0.8.x?
1543 2013-05-08 18:23:55 HM2 has joined
1544 2013-05-08 18:23:55 <sipa> phantomcircuit: no
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1546 2013-05-08 18:24:26 <sipa> phantomcircuit: it only uses relative seeks in 0.8, so any file size should be fine (or even a pipe, i think, though i haven't tested that)
1547 2013-05-08 18:24:47 XertroV has joined
1548 2013-05-08 18:24:55 <sipa> zooko: the newer one is a strict extension to the older one, so in bittorrent you can use one and "upgrade" it to the other
1549 2013-05-08 18:24:58 nus has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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1559 2013-05-08 18:29:40 delinquentme has joined
1560 2013-05-08 18:29:49 <etotheipi_> sipa: have a link/txid of a P2SH transaction?
1561 2013-05-08 18:29:51 <etotheipi_> I just need anyone
1562 2013-05-08 18:30:12 Diapolis has joined
1563 2013-05-08 18:30:28 vigilyn has joined
1564 2013-05-08 18:30:41 LorenzoMoney has joined
1565 2013-05-08 18:30:43 <etotheipi_> *any one P2SH tx as an example
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1567 2013-05-08 18:31:44 SwedFTP has joined
1568 2013-05-08 18:32:07 <michagogo> C:\Users\Micha\Downloads>openssl md5 bootstrap.dat
1569 2013-05-08 18:32:07 <michagogo> MD5(bootstrap.dat)= 1b437d44213b7d98c974546b55834d10
1570 2013-05-08 18:32:18 <michagogo> C:\Users\Micha\Downloads>openssl sha1 bootstrap.dat
1571 2013-05-08 18:32:18 <michagogo> SHA1(bootstrap.dat)= 985380032b618281ec5b9b49afdcc99a4bcd69eb
1572 2013-05-08 18:33:49 <lianj> etotheipi_: 7208e5edf525f04e705fb3390194e316205b8f995c8c9fcd8c6093abe04fa27d
1573 2013-05-08 18:33:51 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
1574 2013-05-08 18:33:53 nus has joined
1575 2013-05-08 18:34:24 Squidicuz has joined
1576 2013-05-08 18:34:29 <etotheipi_> lianj, thanks!
1577 2013-05-08 18:34:32 <lianj> 3a17dace09ffb919ed627a93f1873220f4c975c1248558b18d16bce25d38c4b7 (with inner multisig)
1578 2013-05-08 18:34:35 <lianj> bd1715f1abfdc62bea3f605bdb461b3ba1f2cca6ec0d73a18a548b7717ca8531 that too
1579 2013-05-08 18:34:36 <sipa> michagogo: bootstrap.dat is verified upon importing, so there's no real need for authentication
1580 2013-05-08 18:35:28 <sipa> michagogo: though you may want to make sure you don't have accidental corruption, as it may mean a long download for nothing :)
1581 2013-05-08 18:36:58 icellan has quit (Quit: icellan)
1582 2013-05-08 18:37:10 xdrake is now known as chorao
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1586 2013-05-08 18:37:47 icellan has joined
1587 2013-05-08 18:39:08 <michagogo> sipa: What I was responding to (earlier) was someone asking about it
1588 2013-05-08 18:39:51 <sipa> michagogo: nvm then :)
1589 2013-05-08 18:40:01 <michagogo> sipa: BTW, I know that when there's a more recent bootstrap.dat torrent, my client will just download the new stuff because it has the old data already
1590 2013-05-08 18:40:29 <michagogo> Do you know if, once that file gets upgraded to be the newer version, it will still work as a seed for the current torrent?
1591 2013-05-08 18:41:14 <lianj> at which height is the latest one?
1592 2013-05-08 18:41:51 <michagogo> Not the current checkpoint as listed in github, but the previous one
1593 2013-05-08 18:42:10 <michagogo> It's at height 216116
1594 2013-05-08 18:43:04 <lianj> i build one for myself ever now and then, ie extend the current one. sadly its 7gb already
1595 2013-05-08 18:43:18 <sipa> michagogo: you need the new torrent file
1596 2013-05-08 18:43:30 <michagogo> sipa: I know
1597 2013-05-08 18:44:08 <michagogo> I mean, once I've downloaded the new torrent file and have the larger bootstrap.dat, would I be able to load and seed on the old bootstrap.dat.torrent?
1598 2013-05-08 18:44:29 <SomeoneWeird> i doubt it
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1607 2013-05-08 18:57:08 czaanja has joined
1608 2013-05-08 18:57:19 <jgarzik> michagogo: I was thinking about a new torrent on May 15
1609 2013-05-08 18:57:25 <jgarzik> I'm guessing there would be a new checkpoint then
1610 2013-05-08 18:57:28 ProfMac has joined
1611 2013-05-08 18:58:01 <michagogo> jgarzik: Wouldn't the next checkpoint probably be a few hundred blocks *before* May 15?
1612 2013-05-08 18:58:17 <michagogo> Erm, I meant *after*, but it would actually probably be before
1613 2013-05-08 18:59:00 <michagogo> BTW, is ending at a checkpoint some kind of requirement for a bootstrap.dat?
1614 2013-05-08 18:59:02 <jgarzik> michagogo, zooko: RE updating the torrent: It all depends on your torrent software. The first X GiB are -guaranteed- to be the same in file X and file X+1. In theory, torrent may serve both X and X+1 from the same file, no locking needed.
1615 2013-05-08 18:59:16 <jgarzik> Normally, you just replace the old .torrent with the new .torrent
1616 2013-05-08 18:59:20 <gmaxwell> michagogo: we never place a checkpoint close to the release time. E.g. it would be a block that exists now.
1617 2013-05-08 18:59:42 <michagogo> Ah
1618 2013-05-08 18:59:56 <michagogo> How many blocks per day was it again, btw?
1619 2013-05-08 19:00:10 <michagogo> ;;calc 24*60/10
1620 2013-05-08 19:00:10 <gribble> 144
1621 2013-05-08 19:00:29 suporte85 has joined
1622 2013-05-08 19:00:43 <michagogo> gmaxwell: Ah, I thought I remembered reading that they tend to be a coupld hundred blocks back
1623 2013-05-08 19:00:49 <michagogo> couple*
1624 2013-05-08 19:00:54 <gmaxwell> michagogo: thousand*
1625 2013-05-08 19:00:58 <michagogo> Ah.
1626 2013-05-08 19:01:20 <michagogo> (Is 15.05 the date for a 0.8.2?)
1627 2013-05-08 19:01:25 <michagogo> ;;calc 2000/144
1628 2013-05-08 19:01:26 <gribble> 13.8888888889
1629 2013-05-08 19:01:51 <gmaxwell> Considering we don't have a RC now, I don't know that we're going to have 0.8.2 by the 15th.
1630 2013-05-08 19:02:10 <michagogo> k
1631 2013-05-08 19:03:25 AndChat64721 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1632 2013-05-08 19:03:41 owowo has joined
1633 2013-05-08 19:03:42 <MC1984> how is the maxlocks going to be lifted then? Just manual miner intervention?
1634 2013-05-08 19:04:15 <gmaxwell> MC1984: there is no maxlocks in 0.8.x+, the temporary block size limit will go away in 0.8.1 automatically.
1635 2013-05-08 19:04:19 Diapolis has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1636 2013-05-08 19:04:56 <MC1984> oh youre using that method
1637 2013-05-08 19:05:15 <MC1984> like with the v2 blocks but based on a date right
1638 2013-05-08 19:05:16 <MC1984> cool
1639 2013-05-08 19:06:11 AndChat64721 has joined
1640 2013-05-08 19:07:15 HM2 has quit ()
1641 2013-05-08 19:07:22 jeewee has joined
1642 2013-05-08 19:07:29 <sipa> jgarzik: i guess the first block incompatible with <=0.7.x after may 15 would be a good checkpoint candidate
1643 2013-05-08 19:07:57 <sipa> gavinandresen, jgarzik, gmaxwell: what do you think is still needed before 0.8.2?
1644 2013-05-08 19:10:02 <michagogo> sipa: Hmm, why the first one incompatible?
1645 2013-05-08 19:10:06 systemParanoid has joined
1646 2013-05-08 19:11:14 <jgarzik> sipa: nailing down vin-empty would be really nice
1647 2013-05-08 19:11:48 <gmaxwell> I wish I knew what was causing that...
1648 2013-05-08 19:11:48 * BlueMatt wonders how long it will take a miner to create an incompatible block...
1649 2013-05-08 19:11:57 <jgarzik> sipa: every time I do a 'getpeerinfo' the client is almost always 0.8.1
1650 2013-05-08 19:12:17 <jgarzik> ok, always
1651 2013-05-08 19:12:32 <jgarzik> never seen any other version exhibit that problem, locally
1652 2013-05-08 19:12:34 Chuky has quit (Quit:  IRcap  8.71 Â)
1653 2013-05-08 19:13:13 <MC1984> on one hand i hope someone mines a deathblock immediately so the network can finally shrug off all those decrepit nodes
1654 2013-05-08 19:13:20 <sipa> jgarzik: i've logged it for a while... it's 0.8.0 and 0.8.1 doing it
1655 2013-05-08 19:13:42 <MC1984> otoh it means less verifiers :/
1656 2013-05-08 19:14:20 <sydna> I bet there's at least once very old node that still has coin generation turned on
1657 2013-05-08 19:15:23 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
1658 2013-05-08 19:15:41 anarchy5 has joined
1659 2013-05-08 19:16:38 <jgarzik> More generally, $somebody needs to make a stab at collecting stats on anomalous events like vin-empty.
1660 2013-05-08 19:17:22 bibbybob has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1661 2013-05-08 19:17:25 has quit (Clown|!Clown@unaffiliated/clown/x-0272709|)
1662 2013-05-08 19:17:27 <jgarzik> "Hey I noticed this in my log" is useful but not rigorous
1663 2013-05-08 19:18:31 <jgarzik> I dream of the day when bitcoin is important enough to rate a Network Response Team ;p
1664 2013-05-08 19:19:01 <jgarzik> amazing that even at >$1b market cap, the people running the network are really still at the volunteer / serious hobbyist level
1665 2013-05-08 19:19:15 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I made a patch to intercept the transactions, and got the txid.. logs what kinds of nodes it appeared to be coming from.. got a few incidents and then it seemed to be stopping here.
1666 2013-05-08 19:19:49 <gmaxwell> Free markets suck. "lets someone else take that cost" :P
1667 2013-05-08 19:20:32 <sydna> ideally wouldn't there be some sort of bitcoin network observatory? multiple nodes that contrast and compare the conditions they are seeing on the network. would allow issues like the 0.7-0.8 fork from going unnoticed.
1668 2013-05-08 19:20:52 <jgarzik> sydna: yes
1669 2013-05-08 19:21:25 <kuzetsa> sydna: are you donating the bandwidth and server?
1670 2013-05-08 19:21:33 <jgarzik> sydna: In a perfect world, the Bitcoin Foundation would run all versions on the network, and observe differences
1671 2013-05-08 19:21:43 <jgarzik> (i.e. run one of each bitcoin version)
1672 2013-05-08 19:21:54 <jgarzik> Smart miners run multiple versions already
1673 2013-05-08 19:21:56 <kuzetsa> =o.O= foundation?
1674 2013-05-08 19:22:11 <jgarzik> Big merchants will likely do the same, I predict.
1675 2013-05-08 19:22:17 <sydna> there isn't much need for that now though is there, <= 0.7 nodes will be left behind soon
1676 2013-05-08 19:22:21 zer0def has joined
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1679 2013-05-08 19:22:36 has joined
1680 2013-05-08 19:22:44 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: How can I hook up the pull tester into pynode and picocoin?
1681 2013-05-08 19:22:59 <sydna> kuzetsa: if there was a patched version to run, I'd be contributing to it. I already run a node so I might as well.
1682 2013-05-08 19:23:10 * kuzetsa nods
1683 2013-05-08 19:23:16 resinate has joined
1684 2013-05-08 19:23:42 <kuzetsa> I really need a better server and/or a datacenter to run a better node
1685 2013-05-08 19:23:45 <sydna> kuzetsa: it's currently set to relay blocks up to 1TB and then sleep for the rest of the month, but I haven't ever hit that yet.
1686 2013-05-08 19:24:04 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: I'm assuming the only thing you care about is the block tester (the rest is just xcompile + run unit tests): you want to apply the equivalent patches as the ones in contrib/test-patches and then you want the jar from http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/files/ run once and you should get a USAGE: line (its essentially just specify port its listening on, IIRC)
1687 2013-05-08 19:24:25 <kuzetsa> often had to shut down my bitcoin node when something which was (compared to bitcoin) mission critical was having issues because of bitcoin traffic
1688 2013-05-08 19:24:29 donpdonp has joined
1689 2013-05-08 19:24:39 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: cool
1690 2013-05-08 19:25:15 <sydna> this particular node just runs bitcoind and not much else, so bandwidth really isn't an issue
1691 2013-05-08 19:25:16 XertroV has joined
1692 2013-05-08 19:25:16 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: if you have any issues, look up the first bXX number which fails in the .java file there
1693 2013-05-08 19:25:19 pope1 has joined
1694 2013-05-08 19:25:21 <donpdonp> whats the best way to notice that bitcoind has a new transaction involving one of its bitcoin addresses? (something that can trigger an event to process the new transaction)
1695 2013-05-08 19:25:24 anarchy5 has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1696 2013-05-08 19:25:40 <kuzetsa> rather unfortunate that the mainstream bitcoind / bitcoin-qt implementation still doesn't an internal throttling mechanism to throttle traffic
1697 2013-05-08 19:25:49 <BlueMatt> there is a -walletnotify in recent versions (not sure when, maybe not till 0.8.2)
1698 2013-05-08 19:26:16 <BlueMatt> kuzetsa: meh, there are system-level bandwidth limiters for essentially all os's
1699 2013-05-08 19:26:17 <donpdonp> BlueMatt: hmm. until then it sounds like polling
1700 2013-05-08 19:26:28 <BlueMatt> donpdonp: check 0.8.1 and see if its there
1701 2013-05-08 19:26:31 <kuzetsa> BlueMatt: "virtually all" doesn't apply in my case :P
1702 2013-05-08 19:26:38 <BlueMatt> kuzetsa: wtf are you on?
1703 2013-05-08 19:26:40 <phantomcircuit> donpdonp, listsinceblock
1704 2013-05-08 19:26:44 <kuzetsa> BlueMatt: windows 7
1705 2013-05-08 19:26:50 <pope1> just compiled novacoind for the 1st time, noticed that it used irc to gather nodes to peer with.. was over on irc.lfnet.org and saw #novacoin00 with a bunch of bots in it, #novacoin itself was empty. Do I need to modify source to use #novacoin00 ?
1706 2013-05-08 19:26:53 <donpdonp> phantomcircuit: ok that sounds doable. thx
1707 2013-05-08 19:26:54 <kuzetsa> like I said, I wish I had a proper server & somewhere to host my node
1708 2013-05-08 19:26:56 <BlueMatt> kuzetsa: yes, that exists, google some more
1709 2013-05-08 19:27:04 <phantomcircuit> it's slightly annoying that it takes a block hash but there is getblockhash for that
1710 2013-05-08 19:27:04 <kuzetsa> uh ... no
1711 2013-05-08 19:27:05 <phantomcircuit> heh
1712 2013-05-08 19:27:21 <kuzetsa> there is no mechanism in vanilla / unmodified windows 7 to throttle traffic
1713 2013-05-08 19:27:21 iwilcox has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1714 2013-05-08 19:27:23 <kuzetsa> you're full of it
1715 2013-05-08 19:27:31 <BlueMatt> kuzetsa: first result on google: ction reset by peer)
1716 2013-05-08 19:27:33 <BlueMatt> http://superuser.com/questions/135719/windows-program-to-limit-bandwidth-of-other-programs
1717 2013-05-08 19:27:39 <kuzetsa> 3rd party interfaces to an underlying API, sure... but otherwise no
1718 2013-05-08 19:27:43 iwilcox has joined
1719 2013-05-08 19:27:43 iwilcox has quit (Changing host)
1720 2013-05-08 19:27:43 iwilcox has joined
1721 2013-05-08 19:27:48 <BlueMatt> kuzetsa: meh, so what?
1722 2013-05-08 19:27:53 <kuzetsa> so fuck that shit
1723 2013-05-08 19:27:58 <kuzetsa> ... pardon my language
1724 2013-05-08 19:28:08 <BlueMatt> if you are worried about security, why are you on windows?
1725 2013-05-08 19:28:29 <kuzetsa> "windows is not secure" [citation needed]
1726 2013-05-08 19:28:39 <BlueMatt> heh
1727 2013-05-08 19:28:42 <BlueMatt> yea
1728 2013-05-08 19:28:58 <BlueMatt> have fun with that
1729 2013-05-08 19:29:38 <kuzetsa> I run and develop certain things on linux and netbsd, but certain things NEED to be run on windows for now
1730 2013-05-08 19:29:46 <sydna> like what?
1731 2013-05-08 19:30:09 <kuzetsa> sydna: like a known working platform for developing video games
1732 2013-05-08 19:30:14 <phantomcircuit> the only things i can think of are certain accounting software and games
1733 2013-05-08 19:30:19 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
1734 2013-05-08 19:30:35 <phantomcircuit> why in the fuck are you running bitcoind on a system you're using to actively develop video games on
1735 2013-05-08 19:31:23 <kuzetsa> phantomcircuit: because running my bitcoin node isn't mission critical and I can turn it off if there are problems, or simply on a whim
1736 2013-05-08 19:31:43 <kuzetsa> it's not like anyone is paying me to run the bitcoin node
1737 2013-05-08 19:32:13 <helo> it should be a normal use case to run bitcoind alongside just about anything
1738 2013-05-08 19:32:29 <kuzetsa> helo: exactly my point
1739 2013-05-08 19:32:57 <helo> it it isn't, then decentralization could suffer
1740 2013-05-08 19:33:11 <helo> *if it
1741 2013-05-08 19:33:14 <kuzetsa> I shouldn't have to shut it down just because the OS I'm running it on doesn't natively have an interface to its own APIs to manage traffic, throttle, block, etc.
1742 2013-05-08 19:33:31 <kuzetsa> relying on TC / iptables is bullshit
1743 2013-05-08 19:33:45 <kuzetsa> since it only applies to linux
1744 2013-05-08 19:34:00 <kuzetsa> netbsd's mechanism for the same... well... I'm unfamiliar with it
1745 2013-05-08 19:34:13 chorao has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1746 2013-05-08 19:34:18 <rdponticelli> kuzetsa: Just disable listening...
1747 2013-05-08 19:34:41 harmaz has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1748 2013-05-08 19:34:45 <kuzetsa> rdponticelli: what... like close the listen port off and only allow outbound connections or something?
1749 2013-05-08 19:35:01 <kuzetsa> that's highly inelegant :(
1750 2013-05-08 19:35:03 <rdponticelli> Yeah
1751 2013-05-08 19:35:04 <michagogo> IIRC there's an option to not listen
1752 2013-05-08 19:35:16 <BlueMatt> kuzetsa: I'm glad you feel strongly about this issue...but its not high on anyone else's priorities (AFAIK) so if you want it done, please implement it :)
1753 2013-05-08 19:35:30 <rdponticelli> That's the right thing to do now, if you don't want to serve the blockchain
1754 2013-05-08 19:35:31 <BlueMatt> or use -nolisten
1755 2013-05-08 19:35:42 <rdponticelli> michagogo: -listen=0
1756 2013-05-08 19:35:56 freefox has quit (Quit: freefox)
1757 2013-05-08 19:35:56 <michagogo> Okay, so use that
1758 2013-05-08 19:36:04 <kuzetsa> BlueMatt: I'd rather not... I don't know of any MIT licensed implementations, and would rather not "taint" the bitcoin codebase with GPL code
1759 2013-05-08 19:36:05 swulf-- has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1760 2013-05-08 19:36:22 <michagogo> kuzetsa: No need to close off a port
1761 2013-05-08 19:36:32 <michagogo> kuzetsa: Just put nolisten in your bitcoin.conf
1762 2013-05-08 19:36:38 <BlueMatt> kuzetsa: huh? why cant you implement and release as MIT like the rest of the codebase?
1763 2013-05-08 19:37:06 <kuzetsa> BlueMatt: because it'd require new code which hasn't been scrutinized / audited
1764 2013-05-08 19:37:21 <BlueMatt> oh, you mean you dont know of any bw limiters that are MIT?
1765 2013-05-08 19:37:23 <kuzetsa> I don't trust myself to reverse engineer a trusted GPL version
1766 2013-05-08 19:37:31 <kuzetsa> BlueMatt: correct.
1767 2013-05-08 19:37:51 <BlueMatt> ahh, well if its an existing library and it wouldnt require importing source into our repo it shouldn't matter
1768 2013-05-08 19:38:03 <BlueMatt> (we already link against code with various licenses)
1769 2013-05-08 19:38:08 <sipa> the only bandwidth limiting that makes sense right now is just killing connections that ask too much
1770 2013-05-08 19:38:09 <kuzetsa> ooooh
1771 2013-05-08 19:38:11 <kuzetsa> excellent point
1772 2013-05-08 19:38:12 sacrelege has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1773 2013-05-08 19:38:27 <kuzetsa> I sometimes forget that linking against external libraries which have a different license is
1774 2013-05-08 19:38:30 <kuzetsa> ok now I feel foolish :(
1775 2013-05-08 19:38:34 <helo> bandwidth limiting can be harmful, given that a syncing client only downloads from one host
1776 2013-05-08 19:38:38 quaz0r has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1777 2013-05-08 19:38:40 XertroV has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1778 2013-05-08 19:38:40 <sipa> anything else, if you slow down your bandwidth to other nodes, they'll just get a slower download
1779 2013-05-08 19:38:50 <sipa> you want to make them choose another peer instead
1780 2013-05-08 19:38:53 <sydna> sipa: or implementing some sort of relay-but-not-any-more-than-one-block switch, right?
1781 2013-05-08 19:39:02 <sipa> sydna: indeed
1782 2013-05-08 19:39:07 <kuzetsa> all of my excuses for not wanting to develop new stuff for bitcoin client are now invalid... and all I have left is the truth: "I'm quite lazy"
1783 2013-05-08 19:39:11 <BlueMatt> or also implement downloading from multiple peers at the same time
1784 2013-05-08 19:39:21 <BlueMatt> kuzetsa: welcome to the club :)
1785 2013-05-08 19:39:25 <kuzetsa> :/
1786 2013-05-08 19:39:28 lolcookie has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1787 2013-05-08 19:39:39 <michagogo> BlueMatt: Yeah, something bittorrent-y would be nice
1788 2013-05-08 19:39:48 <michagogo> Reduce the need for bootstrap.dat, etc
1789 2013-05-08 19:40:14 <kuzetsa> helo: what!?%!@%12
1790 2013-05-08 19:40:24 <BlueMatt> michagogo: well, it also probably wants initial-headers sync too and such, so its not a particularly small project
1791 2013-05-08 19:40:35 <kuzetsa> did you really just say that when a client needs to sync / download new blocks, it only pulls the data from a single other node?
1792 2013-05-08 19:40:36 <michagogo> initial-headers?
1793 2013-05-08 19:40:42 <michagogo> kuzetsa: Correct
1794 2013-05-08 19:40:48 <kuzetsa> what the...
1795 2013-05-08 19:40:49 <michagogo> That's why bootstrap.dat exists
1796 2013-05-08 19:40:54 <kuzetsa> ok who the fuck thought of that
1797 2013-05-08 19:40:57 <kuzetsa> that's absurd
1798 2013-05-08 19:41:00 <BlueMatt> michagogo: download headers first so that you have the list of blocks, then download from all others with that list
1799 2013-05-08 19:41:00 <helo> kuzetsa: yep. that's the big reason that throttling is discouraged right now.
1800 2013-05-08 19:41:03 <michagogo> Satoshi?
1801 2013-05-08 19:41:06 <kuzetsa> p2p network which only downloads from a single other node at a time
1802 2013-05-08 19:41:10 <sipa> kuzetsa: it's much more complicated to do it otherwise
1803 2013-05-08 19:41:13 <helo> kuzetsa: if the node someone is synching to throttles them, they may be in for a long wait
1804 2013-05-08 19:41:21 <sipa> kuzetsa: since you don't know which blocks to download basically until you get them
1805 2013-05-08 19:41:31 <sipa> kuzetsa: so it necessarily becomes a single linear chain
1806 2013-05-08 19:41:57 <sipa> kuzetsa: the solution is indeed headers-first, where we first synchronize headers (using the mechanism we have now), so we know what blocks exist in the chain
1807 2013-05-08 19:41:58 <kuzetsa> ...
1808 2013-05-08 19:42:04 <sipa> and can then query them from any node
1809 2013-05-08 19:42:09 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
1810 2013-05-08 19:42:13 <sipa> though that's a rather large change
1811 2013-05-08 19:42:25 <BlueMatt> kuzetsa: its only during the initial sync that you do that, but, yes, its not ideal...anyway, again its quite a large project to change
1812 2013-05-08 19:42:35 <BlueMatt> kuzetsa: and we kind of have lots of other priorities
1813 2013-05-08 19:42:43 <kuzetsa> :/
1814 2013-05-08 19:42:53 <sipa> things are complicated in bitcoin because we do not want to rely on any peer telling the truth
1815 2013-05-08 19:43:01 <sipa> everything has to run in a zero-trust environment
1816 2013-05-08 19:43:07 <sydna> the "not right now" response to a large requests for blocks would be acceptable though
1817 2013-05-08 19:43:23 <sydna> and presumably not a huge change in behaviour for most nodes
1818 2013-05-08 19:43:29 <sipa> indeed
1819 2013-05-08 19:43:31 <michagogo> sipa: Does the header not include the previous block?
1820 2013-05-08 19:43:34 <kuzetsa> Right... if I want this fixed I'm gonna need to actually finish scrutinizing & auditing the codebase and submit at least one patch I came up with myself :(
1821 2013-05-08 19:43:36 <sipa> michagogo: yes
1822 2013-05-08 19:43:53 <michagogo> sipa: So that particular issue wouldn't be a trust issue, would it>
1823 2013-05-08 19:43:55 <michagogo> it?*
1824 2013-05-08 19:44:04 <michagogo> Since you can verify chaininess just from the headers
1825 2013-05-08 19:44:10 <kuzetsa> ... possibly not before I write up a BIP with an explaination of the improved mechanism(s)
1826 2013-05-08 19:44:23 <sipa> no, it's perfectly possible to do a parallellized IBD in a zero-trust way
1827 2013-05-08 19:44:26 <BlueMatt> michagogo: there are quite a few potentially ugly dos attacks
1828 2013-05-08 19:44:26 <sipa> it's just harder
1829 2013-05-08 19:44:41 <BlueMatt> hence why its hard
1830 2013-05-08 19:44:47 <michagogo> BlueMatt: Such as?
1831 2013-05-08 19:45:06 <sipa> headers-first is elegant, perfectly understood and safe
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1833 2013-05-08 19:45:09 <kuzetsa> accumulators of sexy happy funtimes?
1834 2013-05-08 19:45:25 <BlueMatt> well if you just blindly start downloading blocks instead of headers peers which lie can feed you crap+large blocks and fill your disk with crap
1835 2013-05-08 19:45:26 <sipa> just not implemented, and very different from what the code currently does
1836 2013-05-08 19:46:00 <BlueMatt> kuzetsa: if you want an example of how to do it, you can check out https://code.google.com/r/bluemattme-bitcoinj/source/list?name=headersfirstsync which does it using bitcoinj at the application-layer
1837 2013-05-08 19:46:48 <michagogo> Well, you could have it take each block from a random peer...
1838 2013-05-08 19:47:00 <kuzetsa> No really, accumulators of sexy happy funtimes. They work ---> http://google.com/search?q=cryptography+OR+cryptographic+accumulator+RSA+%22one-way%22
1839 2013-05-08 19:47:03 <michagogo> Now, why is that a spectacularly bad idea?
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1841 2013-05-08 19:47:05 <BlueMatt> you dont know what the next block is until you've dont at least headers-first
1842 2013-05-08 19:47:15 <sipa> michagogo: yes, once you have headers-first that's absolutely great
1843 2013-05-08 19:47:23 <michagogo> sipa: No, I mean as it is now
1844 2013-05-08 19:47:37 <BlueMatt> well that wont improve performance at all
1845 2013-05-08 19:47:43 <michagogo> Get a block, see what the previous block is, and then request that block from a different peer
1846 2013-05-08 19:47:51 <BlueMatt> oh, thats terrible
1847 2013-05-08 19:47:53 <sipa> michagogo: you want to go forward, not backward
1848 2013-05-08 19:47:56 <michagogo> BlueMatt: But it will mean you're not relying on a single node
1849 2013-05-08 19:48:06 <sipa> michagogo: otherwise you need to cache all blocks before you can validate any
1850 2013-05-08 19:48:06 <michagogo> Like I said, I realize it's probably a very bad idea
1851 2013-05-08 19:48:20 <BlueMatt> michagogo: you end up waiting on rtt for /each/ block
1852 2013-05-08 19:48:37 <BlueMatt> we currently download in large chunks at a time
1853 2013-05-08 19:48:43 <michagogo> Ahhhh
1854 2013-05-08 19:48:57 <michagogo> So you ask your peer for the latest x blocks?
1855 2013-05-08 19:49:00 <sipa> it means you can be fed a completely bogus chain of thousands of blocks, before you have the ability to verify that the first one is invalid
1856 2013-05-08 19:49:07 <michagogo> Okay, that's a detail I didn't know
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1858 2013-05-08 19:49:14 <michagogo> Oh, wait
1859 2013-05-08 19:49:14 <BlueMatt> you could split the chunks up among peers, but then you may get unlucky and have one really shitty peer and have to wait for a huge rtt every 1000 blocks
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1861 2013-05-08 19:49:28 <michagogo> okay, I might not understand completely what the process is for syncing
1862 2013-05-08 19:49:41 <michagogo> Say I launch my node, 5000 blocks behind
1863 2013-05-08 19:49:45 <michagogo> What does it do?
1864 2013-05-08 19:50:29 <sipa> michagogo: it sends a request "getblocks as of block with hash <my best known tip>"
1865 2013-05-08 19:50:43 <michagogo> Ahhhh
1866 2013-05-08 19:50:44 <sipa> michagogo: upon which the peer replies with 500 invs for those blocks
1867 2013-05-08 19:50:51 <michagogo> Okay, I see
1868 2013-05-08 19:50:56 <sipa> which you turn into a batch of 500 getdata's
1869 2013-05-08 19:51:08 <sipa> after the last one, do a new getblocks
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1871 2013-05-08 19:51:25 <michagogo> Why can't you spread those 500 getdatas over your various nodes>
1872 2013-05-08 19:51:31 <michagogo> s/nodes>/peers?/
1873 2013-05-08 19:51:33 <sipa> because you don't know they have them
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1876 2013-05-08 19:52:05 <kuzetsa> sipa: it can be easy enough to prove (tokens / timestamps) --> http://www.iso.org/iso/home/store/catalogue_ics/catalogue_detail_ics.htm?csnumber=50457
1877 2013-05-08 19:52:15 <michagogo> sipa: Can you ask them is they have them?
1878 2013-05-08 19:52:18 <michagogo> if*
1879 2013-05-08 19:52:22 <BlueMatt> you'd have to keep track of which peers responded and which are laggy and which may not even have the blocks
1880 2013-05-08 19:52:22 <sipa> michagogo: yes, absolutely, it's all possible
1881 2013-05-08 19:52:25 <pope1> what would a good LAMP stack front end be for a novacoin pool?
1882 2013-05-08 19:52:25 <sipa> michagogo: just hard to do right
1883 2013-05-08 19:52:36 <sipa> michagogo: and you have no idea how many subtle sync issues we've already seen
1884 2013-05-08 19:52:37 <BlueMatt> and that gets complicated, so if you're gonna do a rewrite, why not just do it properly and do headers-first
1885 2013-05-08 19:52:42 <kuzetsa> damnit I don't want to write code :(
1886 2013-05-08 19:52:46 * kuzetsa rage-quits AFK
1887 2013-05-08 19:52:46 <michagogo> Does getdata do anything if they don't have the block?
1888 2013-05-08 19:52:53 <sipa> so imho, we should just go to the one known clean solution
1889 2013-05-08 19:52:57 <michagogo> BlueMatt: Yeah, I guess that's really the argument against this
1890 2013-05-08 19:53:15 <BlueMatt> but, yes, in principal you could do that
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1896 2013-05-08 19:59:27 <eklass> is anyone aware of any "light" clients that run on linux and support SOCKS proxy?
1897 2013-05-08 20:00:03 <sydna> Electrum apparently does, though someone mentioned on here before that it might leak DNS requests
1898 2013-05-08 20:00:51 <sydna> that said, Electrum does support directly connecting to Tor hidden services, which fixes that issue somewhat.
1899 2013-05-08 20:00:57 <eklass> but if i needed some particular DNS, i could solve that with a hosts entry, no?
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1902 2013-05-08 20:02:07 <sydna> the issue with leaking DNS requests is that it compromises your anonymity, which is usually the goal of using SOCKS
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1904 2013-05-08 20:02:36 <eklass> right
1905 2013-05-08 20:03:25 <sydna> I am assuming here that by SOCKS you meant Tor
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1916 2013-05-08 20:11:16 <eklass> sure, but i also use a vpn that supports socks
1917 2013-05-08 20:12:36 <sydna> just keep in mind that a VPN doesn't provide you with anonymity.
1918 2013-05-08 20:12:57 <eklass> yar
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1935 2013-05-08 20:24:45 <gavinandresen> sipa: RE: 0.8.2 (sorry, household crisis this afternoon, better now) : Two 0.8.2 issues tagged, the walletpassphrase can lead to crash and https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2547
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1946 2013-05-08 20:34:47 LorenzoMoney has left ("Ciao!")
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1948 2013-05-08 20:35:22 <skinnkavaj> gavinandresen: bill gates about bitcoin you should proud of this little baby http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2359385547001/
1949 2013-05-08 20:35:46 richcollins has joined
1950 2013-05-08 20:36:06 <gavinandresen> skinnkavaj: ⦠maybe we can convince him to submit some patches, that'd be spiffy....
1951 2013-05-08 20:36:48 <skinnkavaj> i think he is too old lol
1952 2013-05-08 20:37:25 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
1953 2013-05-08 20:37:49 <MC1984> why is fox so very specific about the visage of the female presenters they hire
1954 2013-05-08 20:38:37 <sydna> MC1984: it's not like they have the quality of their material to sell themselves with.
1955 2013-05-08 20:38:50 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: not sure if you responded on the pull, but did you ever reproduce the rpc crash thinggy?
1956 2013-05-08 20:38:51 <MC1984> techno tour de force, not bad
1957 2013-05-08 20:38:58 <MC1984> sydna ye lol
1958 2013-05-08 20:39:10 XertroV has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1959 2013-05-08 20:39:22 <Salve> skinnkavaj: Did Bill say its a technical tour de force?
1960 2013-05-08 20:39:40 <Salve> nice
1961 2013-05-08 20:39:56 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: actually, has anyone reproduced that crash?
1962 2013-05-08 20:39:57 <MC1984> "im all for higher taxes but i think it should be on individuals and consumption etc"
1963 2013-05-08 20:40:00 <MC1984> thanks old white guy
1964 2013-05-08 20:40:08 <BlueMatt> s/anyone/any devs/
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1967 2013-05-08 20:44:33 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I've tried. No. I expect that assert is some crazy side effect of the database corruption thats been happening on windows and osx and is unreproducable on Linux.
1968 2013-05-08 20:45:14 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: oh, I meant the rpc-crashes-on-walletunlock, but, yes that crash too
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1992 2013-05-08 21:16:21 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: before I was interrupted, I was going to try reproducing it on my 32-bit-not-so-much-memory machine. I suspect it is an out-of-memory problem
1993 2013-05-08 21:16:42 <BlueMatt> hmm...yes, I suppose thats possible
1994 2013-05-08 21:16:45 <gavinandresen> ⦠but now compiling there I get the boost::chrono missing linker error
1995 2013-05-08 21:16:53 <BlueMatt> (though, btw, it doesnt create more than 1 thread)
1996 2013-05-08 21:17:18 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: VM size increased as I ran the for {1..999} loop
1997 2013-05-08 21:17:25 <BlueMatt> yes, that makes sense
1998 2013-05-08 21:17:53 <BlueMatt> (wasnt there a bug where boost allocated like a byte per new thread, so it ended up eating VM? gmaxwell maybe?)
1999 2013-05-08 21:17:58 <gavinandresen> And it always creates two threads, right? topupkeypool and wallet timeout?
2000 2013-05-08 21:18:24 <BlueMatt> if its already unlocked, it creates nothing, otherwise it creates 2, which will die before it locks again
2001 2013-05-08 21:19:26 <gavinandresen> really? I don't see where walletlock kills any threads...
2002 2013-05-08 21:19:37 <BlueMatt> they should exit on their own
2003 2013-05-08 21:19:48 <BlueMatt> (and me trying to reproduce briefly in gdb seemed to agree with that)
2004 2013-05-08 21:19:57 <gavinandresen> you're locking for 9999 seconds?
2005 2013-05-08 21:20:08 <gavinandresen> err. locking AFTER 9999....
2006 2013-05-08 21:20:10 <BlueMatt> yea, I copied the script in the issue
2007 2013-05-08 21:20:14 <BlueMatt> huh?
2008 2013-05-08 21:20:30 <BlueMatt> no, while [ true ]; do ./bitcoind walletunlock 9999; bitcoind wallet lock; done
2009 2013-05-08 21:20:42 <BlueMatt> then run like 5 because it didnt crash, but then I moved on to other things
2010 2013-05-08 21:21:02 <gavinandresen> mmm. The threads won't exit for 9999 seconds, yes?
2011 2013-05-08 21:21:08 zoinky has joined
2012 2013-05-08 21:21:32 <gavinandresen> (the "lock the wallet after 9999 seconds" threads)
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2014 2013-05-08 21:22:17 <BlueMatt> yes, it should...
2015 2013-05-08 21:22:34 <BlueMatt> hmm...well maybe Im insane
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2035 2013-05-08 21:47:43 <cjd> Hi guys, re this morning mystery is solved, the other guy portscanned for cjdns nodes and -addnode'd me
2036 2013-05-08 21:47:49 <cjd> cjdns/bitcoin.
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2038 2013-05-08 21:47:54 whiterabbit is now known as wrabbit
2039 2013-05-08 21:48:17 <zooko> Haha! That's awesome.
2040 2013-05-08 21:50:05 <cjd> Wanted to take a straw poll and see if a PR might be pulled for changing net.cpp to treat addresses as groups instead of just routable and unroutable... The thinking is if 192.168.1.3 tells me about 192.168.1.4, I know they are mutually reachable and I can use my addr (192.168.1.5) to reach .4
2041 2013-05-08 21:50:44 <BlueMatt> meh, if its local you probably dont care, and if its not, then its either globally routable or not
2042 2013-05-08 21:50:53 <cjd> This would make cjdns work as well as LAN connections (assuming someone bootstraps it with an -addnode)
2043 2013-05-08 21:51:00 <BlueMatt> and I dont think 4.4.4.4 is more of an authority on 4.4.4.5 than any other
2044 2013-05-08 21:51:15 <gmaxwell> cjd: ah. getpeerinfo would have told you they were inbound.
2045 2013-05-08 21:51:34 <gmaxwell> cjd: really risky
2046 2013-05-08 21:51:45 <cjd> risky?
2047 2013-05-08 21:52:10 <gmaxwell> cjd: e.g. random internal port forwarder causing you to make connections to privately numbered stuff.
2048 2013-05-08 21:53:04 <cjd> is connecting to an unintended bitcoind a security breach?
2049 2013-05-08 21:53:08 icellan has joined
2050 2013-05-08 21:53:32 <gmaxwell> cjd: Sorry, "really risky" came off stronger than I intended.
2051 2013-05-08 21:53:35 <cjd> I can see if you're firewalling it off so the world can't connect to it but your own node connecting to it?
2052 2013-05-08 21:53:46 <gmaxwell> I mean that it trivally makes possible behavior we were specifically trying to avoid.
2053 2013-05-08 21:54:31 <cjd> I don't see why connecting to another bitcoind on the localnet can ever be wrong
2054 2013-05-08 21:54:48 <BlueMatt> can I ask what it adds?
2055 2013-05-08 21:55:01 <BlueMatt> it will make a few more connections, but...meh?
2056 2013-05-08 21:55:30 <cjd> cjdns will just work, downloading the block chain from a node on a lan would be nice if you're running multiple nodes and you're behind dsl
2057 2013-05-08 21:55:47 <cjd> someone I know was complaining about that, 2 nodes locally and they couldn't find eachother
2058 2013-05-08 21:55:51 <BlueMatt> why does cjdns not work now?
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2060 2013-05-08 21:56:05 <gmaxwell> cjd: because it'll screw up intentionally isolated nodes, mess up funneling traffic through firewall nodes, maybe not the end of the world... but connecting to some random local node because some not local node told gave you a list of private addresses is weird.
2061 2013-05-08 21:56:08 <cjd> no because IsRoutable() kills it
2062 2013-05-08 21:56:14 * BlueMatt isnt really familiar with cjdns
2063 2013-05-08 21:56:19 <BlueMatt> why does it allocate local addresses?
2064 2013-05-08 21:56:20 skinnkavaj has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2065 2013-05-08 21:56:29 <BlueMatt> and not from a subnet allocated to cjdns?
2066 2013-05-08 21:56:43 <cjd> because it needs an enormous allocation because every address is a key fp
2067 2013-05-08 21:56:44 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: because it needs a !@#! /8.
2068 2013-05-08 21:56:52 <cjd> hehe
2069 2013-05-08 21:56:53 <BlueMatt> wat?
2070 2013-05-08 21:56:59 <BlueMatt> ok...thats just dumb
2071 2013-05-08 21:57:04 <cjd> ip addr == key fingerprint
2072 2013-05-08 21:57:07 <gmaxwell> It has its elegance.
2073 2013-05-08 21:57:08 skinnkavaj has joined
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2076 2013-05-08 21:57:21 <BlueMatt> yes, but you dont need that much space to store a secure key fingerprint
2077 2013-05-08 21:57:41 <tumak_> huh
2078 2013-05-08 21:57:43 <cjd> well...
2079 2013-05-08 21:57:49 <tumak_> the silly /16 check is still in bitcoin-qt code?
2080 2013-05-08 21:57:51 <BlueMatt> 120 bits is great, but even 80 bits is pretty damn secure (which IIRC is minimum possible allocation)
2081 2013-05-08 21:57:56 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I2P addresses are like 512 bits.
2082 2013-05-08 21:58:06 <cjd> 80 bits?
2083 2013-05-08 21:58:11 wrabbit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2084 2013-05-08 21:58:15 rdymac has joined
2085 2013-05-08 21:58:16 <BlueMatt> a /48
2086 2013-05-08 21:58:36 <BlueMatt> its not ideal, fine 96 bits
2087 2013-05-08 21:58:50 <BlueMatt> hash^20(pubkey) or something
2088 2013-05-08 21:58:56 phpwn has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2089 2013-05-08 21:59:05 <BlueMatt> to reduce brute-forcing
2090 2013-05-08 21:59:12 wrabbit has joined
2091 2013-05-08 21:59:22 <cjd> it would probably be "okay for now" but that's not really what I was shooting for
2092 2013-05-08 21:59:38 starsoccer_ is now known as starsoccer
2093 2013-05-08 21:59:39 <zooko> cjdns is awesome.
2094 2013-05-08 21:59:39 <BlueMatt> afaik its pretty easy to get a /32 (96 bits)
2095 2013-05-08 21:59:41 <cjd> anyway fc00::/8 works perfect for every application except bitcoin
2096 2013-05-08 21:59:54 <gmaxwell> In any case, as we mentioned before. The correct thing to do is for bitcoin's addr messages to support multiple spaces and not coerce everything into a v6 address.
2097 2013-05-08 21:59:56 <zooko> Why does it not work for bitcoin?
2098 2013-05-08 22:00:14 <cjd> because bitcoin detects addresses starting with fc and kills them
2099 2013-05-08 22:00:16 <gmaxwell> It works as fine for bitcoin as it does for most things.
2100 2013-05-08 22:00:28 <BlueMatt> or add -dnsseed=cjdns.seed.cjd.org and let that return local addrs
2101 2013-05-08 22:00:38 <gmaxwell> It doesn't "kill them" it refuses to relay them or connect to them if told to from third party nodes.
2102 2013-05-08 22:00:45 <gmaxwell> But it will happily connect to them.
2103 2013-05-08 22:01:02 <cjd> yeah, so everyone just has to -addnode
2104 2013-05-08 22:01:09 <cjd> not so much unlike cjdns itself ;)
2105 2013-05-08 22:01:21 HM has joined
2106 2013-05-08 22:01:26 <cjd> or yes, use a dnsseed and never expect autodiscovery to work
2107 2013-05-08 22:01:34 CaptainBlaze has joined
2108 2013-05-08 22:01:46 <BlueMatt> -dnsseed=dnsseed isnt a bad idea in either case
2109 2013-05-08 22:02:11 <gmaxwell> Does that actually work? it shouldn't.
2110 2013-05-08 22:02:17 <cjd> yeah, it's not really a seed though if you will never autodiscover ;)
2111 2013-05-08 22:02:17 <gmaxwell> If it does we should break it. :P (sorry!)
2112 2013-05-08 22:02:20 <BlueMatt> it doesnt, Im suggesting add it
2113 2013-05-08 22:02:45 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: we shouldn't start connecting to private stuff because something external told us. (unless configured otherwise)
2114 2013-05-08 22:03:09 <cjd> It seems to me that if fc00::1 tells me about fc00::2, that should be ok
2115 2013-05-08 22:03:13 <BlueMatt> ok, fine... -dnsseed=dnsseed -allowdnsseedtomakemeconnectlocally
2116 2013-05-08 22:03:26 <BlueMatt> cjd: I wouldnt think so
2117 2013-05-08 22:03:30 <cjd> and this doesn't need to be network aware, you don't need to add a hack for each and every network
2118 2013-05-08 22:03:48 <BlueMatt> fc00:1 is an incorrectly configured tor router and someone thinks its fun to make me connect to $evilnode at fc00::2
2119 2013-05-08 22:03:50 <BlueMatt> or something
2120 2013-05-08 22:04:00 <cjd> having IsTor() and IsCjdns() and IsI2p() is not that nice
2121 2013-05-08 22:04:08 Namworld has joined
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2123 2013-05-08 22:04:25 <BlueMatt> or connect to fc00::vpn-routed-subnet::1 so you can do some kind of fancy timing attack
2124 2013-05-08 22:04:28 <cjd> but but but... doesn't that mean they can already connect to you?
2125 2013-05-08 22:04:55 <BlueMatt> yea, its not a big deal really, but I dont really like the idea much at all
2126 2013-05-08 22:05:03 <BlueMatt> some people have very strange net configs....
2127 2013-05-08 22:05:19 <BlueMatt> but, yes, ofc IsTor/etc is ugly
2128 2013-05-08 22:05:24 <cjd> if $evilnode wants you to connect to $evilnode at fc00::2 then you're already connected to $evilnode because he's suggesting it
2129 2013-05-08 22:05:26 <gmaxwell> cjd: it does, because it isn't acceptable for a random tor peer to start making you connect to random hosts on your lan.
2130 2013-05-08 22:05:59 <cjd> ok so it's assumed that fc00::2 is innocent and someone is making you connect to them
2131 2013-05-08 22:06:21 Skav has joined
2132 2013-05-08 22:06:41 <cjd> but 2 bitcoin nodes on the same localnet which are not supposed to connect and there is no firewall? is that valid?
2133 2013-05-08 22:06:50 <gmaxwell> consider thing like.. I suspect deadbeef.onion is also host fc00::69 ... I connect to it as deadbeef.onion (a private connection) and tell it about fc00::neverbeforeseen ...
2134 2013-05-08 22:06:51 <BlueMatt> I dunno, maybe I'm a merchant and fc00::1 is my hotwallet, $evilnode over tor found a bug that lets them tell me to pass a message which allows it to exploit anyone I connect to...
2135 2013-05-08 22:07:05 <gmaxwell> cjd: it's a common configuration today.
2136 2013-05-08 22:07:18 <cjd> I'd be for bcasting a udp message every few minutes and connecting to anything else that beacons
2137 2013-05-08 22:07:29 <gmaxwell> (a -connect node firewalled off from the internet on a common network with other nodes)
2138 2013-05-08 22:07:35 <BlueMatt> I certainly dont mind a -allowpeerstofeedmelocalconnections
2139 2013-05-08 22:07:59 <BlueMatt> though it seems like more code bloat for a very barely used option
2140 2013-05-08 22:08:20 <gmaxwell> cjd: at least the udp beacon is a enough of a functionality improvement that it would justify the behavior change.
2141 2013-05-08 22:08:21 Anduck has joined
2142 2013-05-08 22:08:24 <cjd> I connect to it as deadbeef.onion (a private connection) and tell it about fc00::neverbeforeseen <-- doesn't that already work w/ an ipv4 addr?
2143 2013-05-08 22:08:35 <Anduck> how is the the testnet blockchain resetted?
2144 2013-05-08 22:08:39 <gmaxwell> cjd: no, it's firewalled off.
2145 2013-05-08 22:08:43 MobPhone has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2146 2013-05-08 22:09:07 <BlueMatt> cjd: anyway, write a python script to rumor addresses between nodes on port 8335 and then feed them in via addnode
2147 2013-05-08 22:09:25 <cjd> ugh
2148 2013-05-08 22:09:26 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: thats kinda kludgy too
2149 2013-05-08 22:09:37 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: its terribly kludgy...
2150 2013-05-08 22:09:42 <gmaxwell> As was _ALREADY ADVISED_ we need to extend addr messages to support other address types.
2151 2013-05-08 22:09:52 <BlueMatt> yes, probably
2152 2013-05-08 22:10:00 <gmaxwell> it's required in order to support I2P.
2153 2013-05-08 22:10:15 <BlueMatt> its required for i2p too? :(
2154 2013-05-08 22:10:22 <gmaxwell> i2p has 512 bit addresses.
2155 2013-05-08 22:10:33 <BlueMatt> ahh, ok yes
2156 2013-05-08 22:10:33 <cjd> see, now a /8 is small :)
2157 2013-05-08 22:10:41 * BlueMatt didnt make the connection, is a bit thick...
2158 2013-05-08 22:10:57 <BlueMatt> cjd: I still vote for an actual /32 allocation and use that...
2159 2013-05-08 22:10:57 <gmaxwell> the I2p stuff isn't trying to take over like .. all. the v6 link local space. :P
2160 2013-05-08 22:11:27 <cjd> BlueMatt: it would have been a valid discussion like a year ago, at this point we're locked in
2161 2013-05-08 22:11:39 <BlueMatt> cjd: well, ok for cjdns v2
2162 2013-05-08 22:11:48 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: meh.
2163 2013-05-08 22:12:10 <BlueMatt> why not?
2164 2013-05-08 22:12:14 HM has quit ()
2165 2013-05-08 22:13:02 <cjd> my experience is nobody really cares about ipv6 functionality and "clean design" is less important to them, they just care that stuff works and right now I have cjdns address, tunneled ipv6 and tunneled ipv4 all through the same tun device so it works remarkably well
2166 2013-05-08 22:13:38 MobPhone has joined
2167 2013-05-08 22:13:43 <BlueMatt> so no one should use a clean design?
2168 2013-05-08 22:14:02 <BlueMatt> I mean, yes, 99.999% of people could care less about how clean the design is of anything, doesnt mean much though...
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2171 2013-05-08 22:14:19 <gmaxwell> cjd: welp you've taken over pretty much all the link local space. It makes cjdns incompatible with other usage. Its fine for hobbiests, but makes it a hard sell to people who aren't very interested in cjdns.
2172 2013-05-08 22:14:32 HM has quit (Client Quit)
2173 2013-05-08 22:14:35 <cjd> that's valid
2174 2013-05-08 22:15:34 <cjd> UDP beaconing is pretty easy to do, if I were to throw that in, would the idea of "reachability based introduction" get a better audience?
2175 2013-05-08 22:15:43 <gmaxwell> I don't think the problem is "clean design" it's that you're crappingâ for basically good reason I agreeâ on the v6 address allocation standards. I'd suggest getting a /8 allocated, but I know you don't have a chance in heck of that.
2176 2013-05-08 22:16:01 <cjd> yeap
2177 2013-05-08 22:16:04 <gmaxwell> cjd: well I think I suggested before that cjdns really ought to have some topology aware support for bitcoin.
2178 2013-05-08 22:16:36 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2179 2013-05-08 22:16:41 <cjd> well now we have a funny situation, bitcoin should not need to change for cjdns and cjdns should not need to change for bitcoin ;)
2180 2013-05-08 22:16:44 <gmaxwell> really cjdns probably deserves an entirely distinct p2p protocol for bitcoin.
2181 2013-05-08 22:17:08 Skav has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2182 2013-05-08 22:17:11 <gmaxwell> (not that it 'must' but because it's kinda silly to relay traffic from far away nodes that near ones already has)
2183 2013-05-08 22:17:22 <cjd> indeed
2184 2013-05-08 22:17:32 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
2185 2013-05-08 22:17:32 <BlueMatt> although I ofc see the significance of the most bits you can get, I see little reason why pubkey size cant be just a bit smaller? (how big are tor's hidden services?)
2186 2013-05-08 22:18:13 <gmaxwell> tor's are 80 bits, and it's considered a problem and they're going to fix it eventually.
2187 2013-05-08 22:18:27 <BlueMatt> ok, fair enough...
2188 2013-05-08 22:18:31 <cjd> similar requirements for bittorrent, you want to be connected to local nodes
2189 2013-05-08 22:18:33 gonffen_ is now known as gonffen
2190 2013-05-08 22:18:41 gonffen has quit (Changing host)
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2192 2013-05-08 22:19:00 <gmaxwell> cjd: yes, but beyond that, there is a single (hopefully) global state known to all nodes.
2193 2013-05-08 22:19:01 <cjd> ofc IP has no real way to tell you that you're connected to a nearby or far away node so you have to guess
2194 2013-05-08 22:19:41 <cjd> which is btw possible by ping latency, it just complicates attack scenarios ofc
2195 2013-05-08 22:20:19 <zooko> See, the problem is that the IPv6 address space is way too small... ;-)
2196 2013-05-08 22:20:28 <cjd> xD
2197 2013-05-08 22:20:54 <BlueMatt> zooko: yes! we need atleast 128 bits (for space) * 512 bits (for reasonable pubkey sizes)
2198 2013-05-08 22:21:00 <BlueMatt> s/*/+/...
2199 2013-05-08 22:21:13 <cjd> adding the word "cjdns" to a place inside of bitcoin code feels to me like failure
2200 2013-05-08 22:21:29 <cjd> as does adding "bitcoin" to the cjdns codebase
2201 2013-05-08 22:21:30 <zooko> cjd: I don't really understand that part.
2202 2013-05-08 22:21:48 <zooko> I think cjdns is awesome, but I don't think people are going to be able to use it effectively by treating it as "just IPv6".
2203 2013-05-08 22:22:01 <zooko> Or, I guess, I don't see why that should be required.
2204 2013-05-08 22:22:03 <cjd> the idea is that you do
2205 2013-05-08 22:22:04 <zooko> It is awesome that it is possible.
2206 2013-05-08 22:22:24 <cjd> well we don't suggest modifying cisco routers for each protocol we come up with, we just expect things to work
2207 2013-05-08 22:22:26 <gmaxwell> cjd: well, a cjdns anycast directory that can get your the 'nearest' cjdns nodes advertising some anycast address would be useful.
2208 2013-05-08 22:23:04 <gmaxwell> cjd: well, go get yourself a /8 allocated and then the only modifications beyond that are performance optimizations â¦
2209 2013-05-08 22:23:14 <cjd> :)
2210 2013-05-08 22:23:14 <gmaxwell> (e.g. cjanycast)
2211 2013-05-08 22:23:51 <cjd> the idea of p2p introduction service has been discussed a bit, it might make it into the nameserver work if there's a sane approach w/o overloading a server's peer storage space
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2214 2013-05-08 22:24:43 HM has joined
2215 2013-05-08 22:24:58 <zooko> cjd: I don't follow that analogy. Cisco routers do something, and the fact that they can do it to cjdns packets as if they were ipv6 packets and get the correct result is wonderful and necessary.
2216 2013-05-08 22:25:09 HM has quit (Client Quit)
2217 2013-05-08 22:25:17 <zooko> But bitcoind does something else, and what it does with ipv6 addresses might not be appropriate for cjdns addresses and vice versa.
2218 2013-05-08 22:25:21 <zooko> Likewise with tor and i2p.
2219 2013-05-08 22:25:23 <cjd> the fact that we don't need to modify them each time we have a new protocol is necessary
2220 2013-05-08 22:25:33 <zooko> Also doesn't seem *necessary*. It would be nice, elegant, whatever.
2221 2013-05-08 22:25:35 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2222 2013-05-08 22:25:43 <zooko> The fact that we don't need to modify cisco routers for a new protocol is necessary.
2223 2013-05-08 22:25:52 <zooko> But it would be okay to modify bitcoind for each new protocol that we support.
2224 2013-05-08 22:26:03 <cjd> the fact that the core can be dumb and the edge can become smarter over time is why the internet works
2225 2013-05-08 22:26:10 * zooko nods.
2226 2013-05-08 22:26:17 <zooko> Thank you for making the edge smarter with your cjdns work!
2227 2013-05-08 22:26:36 <cjd> cjdns core is phenominally dumb
2228 2013-05-08 22:26:44 <cjd> far more dumb even than cisco
2229 2013-05-08 22:26:48 XertroV has joined
2230 2013-05-08 22:26:55 <zooko_> We had this experience in Tahoe-LAFS, where some behavior that we thought was great turned out to be very wrong for Tor or I2P users.
2231 2013-05-08 22:27:15 <zooko_> The right solution for us is to configure your Tahoe-LAFS software for whether it is doing anonymous networking or not, and it behaves differentl.
2232 2013-05-08 22:27:46 <zooko_> That behavior is: try to automatically figure out an IP address that people can use to connect to you, and then announce that to the world.
2233 2013-05-08 22:27:51 ovidiusoft has quit (Quit: leaving)
2234 2013-05-08 22:28:01 <cjd> Fortunately I have managed to avoid the type of people who will freak out if their ipv4 is exposed, that community requires too much care and feeding for my taste
2235 2013-05-08 22:28:30 <zooko_> So I think this issue about connecting to peers on your LAN is analogous.
2236 2013-05-08 22:28:41 <zooko_> It makes sense to you, but some users would object.
2237 2013-05-08 22:28:58 <zooko_> bbiab
2238 2013-05-08 22:29:02 <cjd> k
2239 2013-05-08 22:29:22 resinate has joined
2240 2013-05-08 22:30:00 <cjd> gmaxwell: hypothetical PR w/ what I described + udp beaconing, where would you stand?
2241 2013-05-08 22:30:40 nsillik has joined
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2244 2013-05-08 22:32:08 <gmaxwell> cjd: if you have the beaconing, why do you need the rumor non routables?
2245 2013-05-08 22:32:40 <cjd> hah ok you win
2246 2013-05-08 22:32:49 <cjd> asside from a segmented lan...
2247 2013-05-08 22:33:03 systemParanoid has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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2250 2013-05-08 22:33:41 <gmaxwell> We could compromise on a setting to regard configured prefixes as routable, I think?
2251 2013-05-08 22:33:44 phpwn has joined
2252 2013-05-08 22:34:10 <cjd> configured prefixes == where you have an address of that type?
2253 2013-05-08 22:34:23 <cjd> or configured in .conf?
2254 2013-05-08 22:34:24 lis has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2255 2013-05-08 22:34:57 <gmaxwell> cjd: like routablenet=192.168/16 routablenet=fe00::0/8
2256 2013-05-08 22:35:03 <cjd> ahh
2257 2013-05-08 22:35:53 <cjd> *shrug* I'm a huge fan of "just works" so it's hard to justify something the user has to do manually, esp when I have a ton of crap todo to solve stuff the user has to do manually in cjdns
2258 2013-05-08 22:35:55 <gmaxwell> would udp beaconing work at all for cjdns?
2259 2013-05-08 22:35:59 <cjd> no
2260 2013-05-08 22:36:04 <gmaxwell> bummer.
2261 2013-05-08 22:36:09 <cjd> cjdns is unicast only
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2264 2013-05-08 22:38:36 <gmaxwell> cjd: to turn your earlier argument on its headâ you say you don't want apps to have to special case cjdnsâ okay, but making them regard non-routable / non-globally reachable address space as globally reachable/routable is exactly that.
2265 2013-05-08 22:38:47 r0sc0e has quit ()
2266 2013-05-08 22:39:04 <ThomasV> etotheipi_: what is SumValue in your post?
2267 2013-05-08 22:39:36 <cjd> gmaxwell: I basically disregard things the IANA says =)
2268 2013-05-08 22:39:41 <tumak_> i thought cjdns uses tap interface
2269 2013-05-08 22:39:46 <tumak_> so theres not much choice?
2270 2013-05-08 22:39:46 <cjd> TUN
2271 2013-05-08 22:39:54 <cjd> and pretty much yes
2272 2013-05-08 22:39:56 <tumak_> ah, well, with tun it should be link global indeed
2273 2013-05-08 22:40:06 <tumak_> how do you link local on tun anyway
2274 2013-05-08 22:40:09 <tumak_> since its l3 only
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2276 2013-05-08 22:40:11 <gmaxwell> cjd: you doâ ... and maybe you can convince me to... but we live in a world with more than you and me and other people no disregarding this stuff matters to me too. :)
2277 2013-05-08 22:40:45 <cjd> yeah
2278 2013-05-08 22:40:59 <cjd> hence my preference of a general lan discovery method
2279 2013-05-08 22:41:25 <cjd> until we reach a few (10?) thousand nodes, an automated portscan/addnode system will establish a hub-and-spoke, when we get to a that many then we can send all the people who want the feature your way :]
2280 2013-05-08 22:42:03 <gmaxwell> yea, ignoring iana becomes more attractive if you have a big userbase, I think I'd mentioned that before.
2281 2013-05-08 22:42:48 <cjd> but still, seeing stuff in bitcoin which says: // this is for tor or // this is for cjdns makes me sad
2282 2013-05-08 22:43:05 <cjd> with tor it is kind of inevitable but cjdns is just a big lan
2283 2013-05-08 22:43:10 <cjd> w/o bcast :)
2284 2013-05-08 22:43:11 <gmaxwell> well, don't use unroutable address space. :P
2285 2013-05-08 22:43:29 <cjd> routes just fine for me :P
2286 2013-05-08 22:43:38 <gmaxwell> nor according to iana. :P
2287 2013-05-08 22:43:51 <cjd> ....bumblebees can't fly
2288 2013-05-08 22:44:01 <gmaxwell> cjd: you really should contemplate anycast. :P
2289 2013-05-08 22:44:36 <cjd> mmm theoretically our design will scale large enough that anycast would break everything
2290 2013-05-08 22:45:01 agricocb has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2291 2013-05-08 22:45:07 <gmaxwell> cjd: hm? I mean, IP any cast is simply "multiple points announce the same IP, traffic goes where traffic goes"
2292 2013-05-08 22:45:24 <cjd> oh right *anycast* not multicast
2293 2013-05-08 22:45:28 <cjd> yes that works now
2294 2013-05-08 22:45:31 <cjd> just copy the key
2295 2013-05-08 22:45:46 icellan has joined
2296 2013-05-08 22:45:49 <tumak_> wow at cjdns source code
2297 2013-05-08 22:45:54 <tumak_> so much uppercase :)
2298 2013-05-08 22:46:06 <tumak_> cjd: i bet you consider migrating to c++ soon :)
2299 2013-05-08 22:46:25 <gmaxwell> cjd: so I'd imagine cjanycast being some functionality where you give all bitcoin nodes with cj support a bitcoin key.. and they advertise to it.. and gobble up whatever traffic comes by. An even smarter way would be a kind of address resolution service.
2300 2013-05-08 22:46:59 <cjd> mmm
2301 2013-05-08 22:47:05 <cjd> how do you repeat a message?
2302 2013-05-08 22:47:20 dvide has joined
2303 2013-05-08 22:47:25 <cjd> tumak_: my argument for camelCase is that capitals and underscores both provide information so using only one is silly
2304 2013-05-08 22:47:51 <cjd> I use _ as a deliminator AKA: RouterModule_pingNode()
2305 2013-05-08 22:48:00 <cjd> that is to be found in RouterModule.c
2306 2013-05-08 22:48:12 <gmaxwell> E.g. you send out a cjd-search for key ... and get back the moral equivilent of an ICMP REDIRECT that gives you a non-anycast cjdns address willing to provide the service perhaps with a bit of metadata.
2307 2013-05-08 22:48:27 <cjd> hmm ok
2308 2013-05-08 22:48:37 * Diablo-D3 ponders
2309 2013-05-08 22:48:39 <cjd> we don't have that but it is interesting
2310 2013-05-08 22:48:40 <Diablo-D3> I hate to change the subject
2311 2013-05-08 22:48:46 <cjd> no you don't :P
2312 2013-05-08 22:49:31 <Diablo-D3> but whats the most optimum way to get shit done?
2313 2013-05-08 22:49:31 <gmaxwell> so then a client on a cjdns network, could send out a probe for bitcoin to N of its peers, and then get back the nearest bitcoin node in each direction and return all <=N to the client.
2314 2013-05-08 22:49:58 <cjd> The search->redirect idea is something we had considered for addition to the dns subsystem but it needs to be just bootstrap, you can't store every Xnode in the world (where X is a protocol)
2315 2013-05-08 22:50:22 <cjd> oh so you'd get only nodes in close proximity.. hmm
2316 2013-05-08 22:50:31 <cjd> and you'd never want to introduce further
2317 2013-05-08 22:50:44 <cjd> interesting idea, kind of a dark network since you can't see very far
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2319 2013-05-08 22:51:09 <Diablo-D3> cjd: watch out, you might be eaten by a grue
2320 2013-05-08 22:51:09 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
2321 2013-05-08 22:51:18 <tumak_> cjd: fair enough :) CPlusPlus convention and c_language_convetion. doing both is kinda um... i just got confused where class declarations were
2322 2013-05-08 22:51:31 <cjd> haha
2323 2013-05-08 22:51:35 <cjd> s/class/struct/
2324 2013-05-08 22:51:50 <cjd> I have yet to find something I really want which C doesn't offer
2325 2013-05-08 22:52:04 <cjd> structs with function pointers, trivial, just pass the struct to the function
2326 2013-05-08 22:52:04 <sipa> cjd destructors
2327 2013-05-08 22:52:06 <tumak_> c++ is nice in the way of original satoshi client
2328 2013-05-08 22:52:12 <tumak_> just abuse it as "c with classes"
2329 2013-05-08 22:52:18 <sipa> cjd: destructors are the one thing that makes me love C++ :p
2330 2013-05-08 22:52:22 <cjd> Allocator_free()
2331 2013-05-08 22:52:23 <tumak_> boost/stl et al is eew
2332 2013-05-08 22:52:48 <cjd> sipa: Allocator trees give me everything that C++ memory management offers
2333 2013-05-08 22:52:58 randy-waterhouse has joined
2334 2013-05-08 22:53:04 <sipa> cjd: destructors have nothing to do with memory management!
2335 2013-05-08 22:53:12 <sipa> (well, they're often used for it, but not only)
2336 2013-05-08 22:53:18 <cjd> what do you use them for?
2337 2013-05-08 22:53:27 iwilcox has quit (Quit: because)
2338 2013-05-08 22:53:28 <tumak_> yeah. destructors introduce invisible side-effects so your code is infinitely more complex to debug :)
2339 2013-05-08 22:53:29 <sipa> cjd: being able to return from a function, and not needing to worry that i've uninitialized everything already initialized in that method
2340 2013-05-08 22:53:38 <sipa> including abstract things like locks
2341 2013-05-08 22:53:39 <cjd> oh right
2342 2013-05-08 22:53:51 iwilcox has joined
2343 2013-05-08 22:53:59 <cjd> Allocator_onFree(alloc, doThisOnFree, arg);
2344 2013-05-08 22:54:02 <cjd> same thing
2345 2013-05-08 22:54:11 metabyte has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2346 2013-05-08 22:54:12 <cjd> when the allocator frees, that function gets called
2347 2013-05-08 22:54:17 <tumak_> cjd: he means the scope syntactic sugar
2348 2013-05-08 22:54:19 <tumak_> which c does not have
2349 2013-05-08 22:54:36 <sipa> you don't need to convince me that you can do the same in C
2350 2013-05-08 22:54:38 <cjd> meh, saving a line here and there is more magic than it's worth IMO
2351 2013-05-08 22:54:40 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
2352 2013-05-08 22:54:41 <tumak_> many people find that sugar poisonous
2353 2013-05-08 22:55:43 <gmaxwell> destructors == only good thing in C++ IMO. :)
2354 2013-05-08 22:56:02 <gmaxwell> (or at least the only feature that reduces more bugs than it adds)
2355 2013-05-08 22:56:02 <tumak_> destructors & exceptions == the single most dreadful thing of c++
2356 2013-05-08 22:56:04 <tumak_> the rest is nice
2357 2013-05-08 22:56:13 <tumak_> also rtti is evil
2358 2013-05-08 22:56:23 <sipa> yes, rtti is ugly, agree
2359 2013-05-08 22:56:43 <cjd> Allocators make you group things together by logical scope, so like a ping message needs a bunch of various state to be stored pending the reply, it also needs some crap stored in structures, I just use an allocator to store that state and hook the free function so it will remove the ping state from a table
2360 2013-05-08 22:56:56 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2361 2013-05-08 22:57:10 <tumak_> cjd: thats actually kind of abstraction c++ is good at
2362 2013-05-08 22:57:44 <cjd> yeah but just using good design doesn't cost that many more keystrokes and it saves a lot of headache debugging IMO
2363 2013-05-08 22:57:49 <tumak_> its still explicit (single mixin to handle tree of objects), yet more conscise to find out whats going on
2364 2013-05-08 22:58:04 TD has joined
2365 2013-05-08 22:58:16 <tumak_> for some reason, boost school of programmers hate it
2366 2013-05-08 22:58:24 <tumak_> and prefer to encase everything in shared_ptrs lol
2367 2013-05-08 22:58:35 chora has joined
2368 2013-05-08 22:58:35 <cjd> +1 reason why I avoid C++
2369 2013-05-08 22:59:02 <cjd> I'd rather no patches at all than the kind of patches a C++ project can get
2370 2013-05-08 22:59:06 <tumak_> cjd: give it a try. c++ gives you a lot of freedom on how to use it
2371 2013-05-08 22:59:14 mappum has joined
2372 2013-05-08 22:59:16 <cjd> I consider that a problem ;)
2373 2013-05-08 22:59:33 <tumak_> as long you use it as 'c with classes' things are ok for c programmers
2374 2013-05-08 22:59:47 <cjd> I have C with classes, it's just C
2375 2013-05-08 23:00:13 <cjd> oh I don't have inheritence but that is a rat's nest too so best avoided
2376 2013-05-08 23:00:30 <tumak_> single inheritance + for inheritance
2377 2013-05-08 23:00:32 <tumak_> templates for mixins
2378 2013-05-08 23:00:32 <tumak_> etc
2379 2013-05-08 23:00:46 <tumak_> multiple inheritance is madness indeed
2380 2013-05-08 23:00:54 <cjd> Templates sound nice except when I hear people talking about them ;)
2381 2013-05-08 23:00:55 volante has joined
2382 2013-05-08 23:01:01 abadr has quit (Quit: abadr)
2383 2013-05-08 23:01:11 <tumak_> cjd: templates are nice to be abused to replace multiple inheritance
2384 2013-05-08 23:01:23 <tumak_> once again, boost folks call it evil satan worship sabbath
2385 2013-05-08 23:01:39 <cjd> back to why I avoid C++
2386 2013-05-08 23:01:47 <sipa> templates are nice because you can make the compiler do turing-complete stuff (including infinite loops!)
2387 2013-05-08 23:01:54 <sipa> </sarcasm>
2388 2013-05-08 23:02:02 <tumak_> sipa: haha, i tried that once
2389 2013-05-08 23:02:04 <cjd> actually I would like that
2390 2013-05-08 23:02:12 <tumak_> sipa: regex match code generator in templates
2391 2013-05-08 23:02:16 <cjd> a touring complete preprocessor would be very nice IMO
2392 2013-05-08 23:02:23 <cjd> *turing
2393 2013-05-08 23:02:36 <sipa> cjd: repeated C preprocessor running is turing complete :p
2394 2013-05-08 23:02:47 <tumak_> cjd: it is turing complete kinda
2395 2013-05-08 23:02:50 <tumak_> but always FSM
2396 2013-05-08 23:02:53 <gmaxwell> sipa: "couldn't be worse than STL"
2397 2013-05-08 23:02:56 <cjd> right but I want a compelling preprocessor language
2398 2013-05-08 23:02:57 <tumak_> the tape is not infinitel :)
2399 2013-05-08 23:03:22 abadr has joined
2400 2013-05-08 23:03:23 <cjd> javascript has a "turing complete preprocessor" just by virtue of the fact that there is no compile stage and it is a very mutable language
2401 2013-05-08 23:03:24 <sipa> cjd: C++11 has a keyword to mean "evaluate this expression at compile time", i think
2402 2013-05-08 23:03:33 <cjd> and it makes it a pleasure to write
2403 2013-05-08 23:03:48 <gmaxwell> constexpr... yea.
2404 2013-05-08 23:04:18 <cjd> the first time you use a for loop to generate setters and getters, you understand the value of preprocessing
2405 2013-05-08 23:05:03 <tumak_> js is funny because you nead language translators to make it bearable :)
2406 2013-05-08 23:05:34 <cjd> most popular language on github atm
2407 2013-05-08 23:05:38 <cjd> so *shrug*
2408 2013-05-08 23:05:48 <tumak_> yup, npm thingy is very well managed indeed
2409 2013-05-08 23:05:56 michagogo has quit (Quit: Goodnight)
2410 2013-05-08 23:06:17 abadr has quit (Client Quit)
2411 2013-05-08 23:06:24 <tumak_> cjd: however runtime metaprogramming in js is really not comparable against languages which really shine at it
2412 2013-05-08 23:06:27 <tumak_> eg python and lua
2413 2013-05-08 23:06:40 <cjd> python is pretty nice
2414 2013-05-08 23:06:40 Belxjander has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2415 2013-05-08 23:06:45 <cjd> more complex than js though
2416 2013-05-08 23:06:53 <sipa> if only python had static types :(
2417 2013-05-08 23:06:58 <tumak_> sipa: it has
2418 2013-05-08 23:07:03 <tumak_> rpython :)
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2420 2013-05-08 23:07:27 <cjd> I like static types but I don't want to have to tell you what they are constantly
2421 2013-05-08 23:07:31 <tumak_> needless to say its major pita to use that, so be careful what you wish for
2422 2013-05-08 23:07:34 <sipa> cjd: type inference!
2423 2013-05-08 23:07:38 andyh2 has joined
2424 2013-05-08 23:07:49 <cjd> which basically doesn't exist except very naive implementations
2425 2013-05-08 23:07:50 andyh2 has quit (Client Quit)
2426 2013-05-08 23:07:57 <cjd> no golang, you don't win.
2427 2013-05-08 23:08:03 <sipa> Haskell has it, and it works great :)
2428 2013-05-08 23:08:18 <cjd> ahh ok, that's probably true
2429 2013-05-08 23:08:24 <sipa> except when you use some experimental type system extensions, type inference works completely
2430 2013-05-08 23:08:25 <cjd> I know nothing about haekell
2431 2013-05-08 23:08:47 <sipa> however, in practice in larger projects you still write type signatures
2432 2013-05-08 23:08:54 <cjd> I wish js has that
2433 2013-05-08 23:08:57 <sipa> more as self-documentation than actual necessity
2434 2013-05-08 23:08:57 <cjd> *had
2435 2013-05-08 23:09:17 <sipa> but in case of bugs, the compile errors become completely unusable if it's complex and you have no type signatures at all
2436 2013-05-08 23:09:17 <cjd> I just want to be warned "hey you're going to do an implicit cast here, fix your code"
2437 2013-05-08 23:09:25 <tumak_> cjd: does not exist? try some ml-derived languages :)
2438 2013-05-08 23:09:45 <cjd> in mainstream languages like js and python? :)
2439 2013-05-08 23:09:54 <tumak_> huh?
2440 2013-05-08 23:10:02 <cjd> type inferrence
2441 2013-05-08 23:10:10 <tumak_> both are type-value languages, that does not make sense
2442 2013-05-08 23:10:27 <tumak_> assert(typeof) is the most you could do
2443 2013-05-08 23:10:31 <cjd> neither can warn about implicit casts
2444 2013-05-08 23:10:52 <cjd> var i = 1; var x = ''+i; <-- give me a warning please
2445 2013-05-08 23:11:01 <tumak_> in python and lua, sure
2446 2013-05-08 23:11:04 <tumak_> js is too limited :(
2447 2013-05-08 23:11:13 sud3n has joined
2448 2013-05-08 23:11:15 <cjd> python doesn't do it either, it blows up at runtime
2449 2013-05-08 23:11:24 <cjd> and your website goes down and people laugh
2450 2013-05-08 23:11:28 <tumak_> cjd: please criticize only things you understand
2451 2013-05-08 23:11:42 <cjd> That would limit me to nothing at all
2452 2013-05-08 23:12:07 andyh2 has joined
2453 2013-05-08 23:12:27 <tumak_> means to do runtime checking in js would be nice tho
2454 2013-05-08 23:12:34 <tumak_> debugging bitcoinjs w/o it is some major pita
2455 2013-05-08 23:12:50 <cjd> static checks > runtime checks
2456 2013-05-08 23:13:06 <tumak_> cant do that in typevalued languages
2457 2013-05-08 23:13:12 <tumak_> runtime has to do
2458 2013-05-08 23:13:14 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
2459 2013-05-08 23:13:18 * gmaxwell recommends you guys go all write your software using COQ
2460 2013-05-08 23:13:32 <tumak_> in a sense 'no, i dont want to coerce that goddamn value to some bullcrap'
2461 2013-05-08 23:13:40 <tumak_> whats so hard about throwing an exception, lol js
2462 2013-05-08 23:13:53 <jgarzik> RE 51% and Dan Kaminsky
2463 2013-05-08 23:13:57 <jgarzik> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=194554.msg2078882#msg2078882
2464 2013-05-08 23:14:05 <jgarzik> "Bitcoin will have a new work function in the next year, or there will be a new Bitcoin. Not actually sure which."
2465 2013-05-08 23:14:41 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: "He's usually quite careful to not make claims he cant back up" lol.
2466 2013-05-08 23:14:48 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
2467 2013-05-08 23:14:54 seeingidog__ has joined
2468 2013-05-08 23:14:56 <tumak_> jgarzik: dk being clueless always :(
2469 2013-05-08 23:15:18 <cjd> "He's usually quite careful to not make claims he cant back up." <-- lol more like claims that someone else can't prove wrong
2470 2013-05-08 23:15:20 Rothgar has joined
2471 2013-05-08 23:15:31 <Rothgar> Are gavin's v1 notes on the 0.8.2 client published/avalible?
2472 2013-05-08 23:15:35 <gmaxwell> He's not clueless, but he's repeating weaker than typical speculation. (as evidenced by his later comments)
2473 2013-05-08 23:16:16 <gmaxwell> Rothgar: Why would you expect them to be? the software is not in RC yet? Whats the context for your question?
2474 2013-05-08 23:17:07 <Rothgar> I put a post on the bitcoinfoudation forum, and gavin said he would be writing them today.
2475 2013-05-08 23:17:13 <Rothgar> Just the v1 notes.
2476 2013-05-08 23:17:39 <cjd> re COQ, I want all of the goodies in a language with lots of libraries and ease of prototyping
2477 2013-05-08 23:18:35 XertroV has joined
2478 2013-05-08 23:19:11 <Rothgar> not the release notes. I'm just researching for a bolg post and I want to be as informed as I can be. Gavin did explain some of the expected changes and I thank him for that.
2479 2013-05-08 23:20:02 <gmaxwell> Rothgar: why would you write a blog post on a new release that isn't even quite in release canadate state yet? :-/
2480 2013-05-08 23:21:11 <tumak_> Rothgar: just sift through the github
2481 2013-05-08 23:21:28 <Rothgar> Because a lot of people are all worried about this .00005430 minimum output. I want to put this in prospective.
2482 2013-05-08 23:21:31 <tumak_> i think the most important changes are microtx ban and DER signatures
2483 2013-05-08 23:21:48 mollison has joined
2484 2013-05-08 23:21:56 <sipa> tumak_: and memory/network improvements
2485 2013-05-08 23:22:02 <Rothgar> I'll look up the DER transactions.
2486 2013-05-08 23:22:23 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2487 2013-05-08 23:22:36 <Rothgar> DER *signatures
2488 2013-05-08 23:22:38 <sipa> Rothgar: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=20130407162059.GA19420%40vps7135.xlshosting.net&forum_name=bitcoin-development
2489 2013-05-08 23:22:38 <Rothgar> thanks
2490 2013-05-08 23:22:43 toffoo has joined
2491 2013-05-08 23:23:01 <Rothgar> that's great thanks sipa
2492 2013-05-08 23:23:02 CaptainBlaze has quit (Quit: CaptainBlaze)
2493 2013-05-08 23:23:07 <Rothgar> Hi toffoo
2494 2013-05-08 23:23:35 <tumak_> Rothgar: DER is important for development of alt clients
2495 2013-05-08 23:23:37 <gmaxwell> tumak_: I don't think the DER signatures thing is terribly interesting (though important to release note), the memory usage reductions are far more important.
2496 2013-05-08 23:23:39 <tumak_> since its fuzzy part of protocol now
2497 2013-05-08 23:24:02 <gmaxwell> tumak_: they still have to handle it until they're forbidden though... non-standarding them is just a first step.
2498 2013-05-08 23:24:06 <toffoo> Rothgar hola!
2499 2013-05-08 23:24:09 <tumak_> gmaxwell: indeed
2500 2013-05-08 23:24:27 <Rothgar> Great to "see" you again toffoo
2501 2013-05-08 23:24:34 <toffoo> likewise my friend
2502 2013-05-08 23:24:45 Garr255 has joined
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2504 2013-05-08 23:24:45 Garr255 has joined
2505 2013-05-08 23:24:47 <Rothgar> :)
2506 2013-05-08 23:25:38 <Rothgar> gmaxwell: what's the big picture?
2507 2013-05-08 23:26:03 <gmaxwell> hm?
2508 2013-05-08 23:26:17 <tumak_> bitcoin ietf RFC
2509 2013-05-08 23:26:23 <tumak_> no ambiguity in protocol :)
2510 2013-05-08 23:26:36 <gmaxwell> lol. as if RFCs leave no ambiguity.
2511 2013-05-08 23:26:55 <sipa> making the validity-rules self-contained, instead of depending on implementation behaviour of an external library (OpenSSL)
2512 2013-05-08 23:26:59 <tumak_> gmaxwell: to be fair, the ambiguity cases are found out later on
2513 2013-05-08 23:27:07 <gmaxwell> well, I suppose we can just attach a normative implementation base64ed onto the end, and then there is no ambiguity. :PP
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2515 2013-05-08 23:27:27 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
2516 2013-05-08 23:27:58 LorenzoMoney has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2517 2013-05-08 23:28:14 <midnightmagic> accept liberally, emit conservatively.
2518 2013-05-08 23:28:16 * midnightmagic hides now.
2519 2013-05-08 23:28:37 Corndawg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2520 2013-05-08 23:28:40 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: this is now throughly considered bad advice in the IETF to the extent that it gets used as a joke.
2521 2013-05-08 23:28:40 <tumak_> midnightmagic: sounds like average bitcoiners economic profile
2522 2013-05-08 23:28:43 <tumak_> :)
2523 2013-05-08 23:28:57 Corndawg has joined
2524 2013-05-08 23:29:06 BurtyB has joined
2525 2013-05-08 23:29:27 LorenzoMoney has joined
2526 2013-05-08 23:29:36 <tumak_> gmaxwell: i thought it's valid when explaining the COULD/SHOULD/MUST wording
2527 2013-05-08 23:30:02 <midnightmagic> 16:05 * midnightmagic hides now.
2528 2013-05-08 23:30:15 pope1 has quit ()
2529 2013-05-08 23:30:16 <cjd> conservitively accept, liberally emit (just to make sure the other guy is following the rules)
2530 2013-05-08 23:30:17 <tumak_> 01:07 < midnightmagic> 16:05 * midnightmagic hides now.
2531 2013-05-08 23:30:25 <tumak_> woot, time lapse
2532 2013-05-08 23:30:31 <midnightmagic> lol
2533 2013-05-08 23:30:36 <jgarzik> hah!
2534 2013-05-08 23:30:40 <jgarzik> never knew who he was...
2535 2013-05-08 23:30:43 <jgarzik> "Yes I invented hashcash, no I am not Satoshi Wink"
2536 2013-05-08 23:31:04 saracen has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2537 2013-05-08 23:31:14 GordonG3kko has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2538 2013-05-08 23:31:15 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: he's still deep in the new-to-bitcoin-and-around-every-corner-is-some-grand-idea-phase. :P
2539 2013-05-08 23:31:19 <tumak_> he has an hilarious introduction in a newbie section
2540 2013-05-08 23:31:44 saracen has joined
2541 2013-05-08 23:31:54 gfinn has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2542 2013-05-08 23:31:54 holorga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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2545 2013-05-08 23:32:05 <Rothgar> I guess my question amounts to fact checking this paragraph. http://pastebin.com/Lr9XtDF6
2546 2013-05-08 23:32:08 <gmaxwell> I have to keep telling myself "I went through this too. I am fortunate people were kind and did not strangle me, and still am"
2547 2013-05-08 23:32:30 <cjd> xD
2548 2013-05-08 23:32:33 MobiusL has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2549 2013-05-08 23:32:44 <Rothgar> Just need to know this explains the situation well.
2550 2013-05-08 23:33:01 Marinello has joined
2551 2013-05-08 23:33:07 <gmaxwell> Rothgar: it's not just a "this amount" thing, the behavior depends on the configured mintxfee threshold. So, e.g. if tomorrow 1 bitcoin buys a house its reasonable to expect people to adapt even without new software.
2552 2013-05-08 23:33:30 <tumak_> btw, what happened to the rational fees miner movement?
2553 2013-05-08 23:33:33 <tumak_> is that thing still on?
2554 2013-05-08 23:33:41 sacredchao has joined
2555 2013-05-08 23:33:51 <Rothgar> Thanks gmaxwell
2556 2013-05-08 23:34:17 <cjd> It's also worth noting that the real problem is not Alice paying Bob 1/1th of a cent, the problem is Dick uploading all of wikileaks via small transactions, Dick ruined it for everyone.
2557 2013-05-08 23:34:24 <cjd> if we are to consider it ruined :)
2558 2013-05-08 23:34:27 <gmaxwell> Rothgar: considering about 1/3rd of the responses on the forum have been "omg what if thats a zillion dollars in bitcoin tomorrow", the distinction is somewhat important.
2559 2013-05-08 23:34:49 <gmaxwell> Rothgar: "By creating more complicated transactions when spent this raises the required fee, and has led to complaints by Bitcoin users." < this point isn't really clear, I think I know what you're talking about.
2560 2013-05-08 23:34:58 holorga has joined
2561 2013-05-08 23:35:16 <k9quaint_> gmaxwell: you need to do an RFC for bitcoin along the lines of RFC1149 or RFC2549
2562 2013-05-08 23:35:19 tumak_ is now known as tumak
2563 2013-05-08 23:36:02 <zooko> I've known Adam Back for 20 years.
2564 2013-05-08 23:36:06 <tumak> bitcoin is 100% pigeon compatible
2565 2013-05-08 23:36:14 <Rothgar> I'm trying to write to a general audience and don't want to mention the kilobytes of the transaction. More complicated is to mean more kB
2566 2013-05-08 23:36:25 <gmaxwell> I realize that.
2567 2013-05-08 23:37:08 <tumak> Rothgar: the only concern are 'smart coins' people (ie colored coins and other asset representation schemes in the blockchain)
2568 2013-05-08 23:37:24 <gmaxwell> I think the subject is basically impossible to talk to a general audience about, because you first have to deal with a wad of misunderstandings.
2569 2013-05-08 23:37:26 <Rothgar> I'll review this language. Thanks, Let me show you another paragraph that I think addresses your other comment.
2570 2013-05-08 23:37:37 TD has joined
2571 2013-05-08 23:37:46 <Rothgar> tumak, I plan to mention that prespective
2572 2013-05-08 23:37:48 <tumak> Rothgar: but once again, everyone was warned that blockchain shouldn't be used for anything else than bitcoin transactions, so its not like not previously known problem
2573 2013-05-08 23:37:52 <k9quaint_> gmaxwell: like the involvement of the Illuminati in creating dust on the blockchain?
2574 2013-05-08 23:38:08 guruvan has joined
2575 2013-05-08 23:38:13 <gmaxwell> e.g. people don't think of transactions as spending coins, and so they don't realize there is a marginal (fee) cost in consuming additional inputs.
2576 2013-05-08 23:38:30 <cjd> Rothgar: gmaxwell "The minimum is calculated by the amount of data everyone has to store for your transaction. Typical fees are also used for the calculation so if bitcoin were to go to 1000$ the minimum would be lower" ??
2577 2013-05-08 23:38:37 <gmaxwell> So the whole idea that a input could cost more to spend than it yields in coin is really novel to many people.
2578 2013-05-08 23:38:42 <Rothgar> tumak and software has not been written for colored coins so why accommodate something that doesn't exist.
2579 2013-05-08 23:38:50 <tumak> Rothgar: you're mistaken
2580 2013-05-08 23:38:57 nsillik has joined
2581 2013-05-08 23:39:05 <tumak> Rothgar: i wrote web wallet, killerstorm modified armory ...
2582 2013-05-08 23:39:14 <Rothgar> tumak, where is the colored coin client?
2583 2013-05-08 23:39:16 <tumak> but its still very early alpha indeed, so not end of the world
2584 2013-05-08 23:39:19 <Rothgar> link?
2585 2013-05-08 23:39:23 <gmaxwell> tumak: the colored coins thing just has a simple answer though, make your colored coins 6000 satoshi. Done. This neatly makes sure that people can afford to sweep them up.
2586 2013-05-08 23:39:28 <tumak> search webcoinx and armoryx in the forums
2587 2013-05-08 23:39:40 <tumak> gmaxwell: it's more complicated than that :(
2588 2013-05-08 23:39:55 <gmaxwell> tumak: It's not. :(
2589 2013-05-08 23:39:55 <cjd> meh
2590 2013-05-08 23:40:02 <tumak> gmaxwell: mostly when the limit will be raised arbitrarily again, so we have to account for dynamic denomination-amount changes
2591 2013-05-08 23:40:28 <cjd> colorcoins can be implemented sanely (in which case you can just mix them with clear coins in order to not hit the limit)
2592 2013-05-08 23:40:46 <cjd> but nobody is implementing it that way which is sad
2593 2013-05-08 23:40:47 <tumak> gmaxwell: however agreed it's not a show stopper, if colored coins were in wide use now, it would be troublesome though
2594 2013-05-08 23:40:53 <gmaxwell> tumak: but thats _always_ a risk, has nothing to do with client default policy. There have been many nodes that wouldn't mine or relay 1e-8 coins for months, thats one reason satoshi dice changeâ they kept getting double spent.
2595 2013-05-08 23:41:18 <tumak> gmaxwell: agreed. you made that "problem" just more pronounced.
2596 2013-05-08 23:41:30 <cjd> Everything I want to do will look just like a perfectly normal transaction :) which is why gmaxwell and I have heated discussions ;)
2597 2013-05-08 23:41:47 <Rothgar> gmaxwell: I think http://pastebin.com/2bBPtQmL addresses your comments about the fees, granted it's vague dynamic fees I call them.
2598 2013-05-08 23:41:55 <Luke-Jr> tumak: just use 0.01 BTC for all coloured coins. solved.
2599 2013-05-08 23:42:25 <tumak> Luke-Jr: emitting 1,000,000,000 shares will cost just 10m btc :)
2600 2013-05-08 23:42:32 <Rothgar> or 0.0001
2601 2013-05-08 23:42:45 <cjd> each colored coin is 1 satoshi, but you "grease the transaction" by mixing in some uncolored coind
2602 2013-05-08 23:42:50 <cjd> problem solved
2603 2013-05-08 23:42:55 Blackreign has joined
2604 2013-05-08 23:43:00 <gmaxwell> Rothgar: except ... only low priority transactions need that fee. :(
2605 2013-05-08 23:43:07 <Luke-Jr> tumak: problem?
2606 2013-05-08 23:43:12 <tumak> Luke-Jr: not for me :))
2607 2013-05-08 23:43:33 <Luke-Jr> cjd: won't work AIUI
2608 2013-05-08 23:43:38 <tumak> Luke-Jr: as long its 0.0005 btc per share its ok imo. curbs various asset ponzis too, since you need initial capital for IPO
2609 2013-05-08 23:43:54 <gmaxwell> Rothgar: it's also per kilobyte, and I understand why you don't want to mention that.. but it's makes a big difference. It's quite possible to write a 100kb transaction for 0.01 btc out of dust, and end up with a 0.05 BTC fee on it.
2610 2013-05-08 23:44:02 <cjd> Luke-Jr: yeah because current implementations don't track satoshis which is silly
2611 2013-05-08 23:44:27 <Rothgar> good point, thanks
2612 2013-05-08 23:44:28 <Luke-Jr> cjd: no, because ANY output under the limit makes it non-standard
2613 2013-05-08 23:44:33 <Luke-Jr> cjd: other outputs don't counter that
2614 2013-05-08 23:44:47 <cjd> right, you mix in uncolored coins in the same output
2615 2013-05-08 23:44:48 <k9quaint_> good luck getting someone to put 1,000,000,000 txs into the blockchain
2616 2013-05-08 23:44:53 <Luke-Jr> â¦
2617 2013-05-08 23:45:01 <gmaxwell> Rothgar: and I don't think it addresses it. Your text makes it sound like there is a hardcoded minimum payment amount. This same misunderstanding was common on the forums and caused people to freak out with concern about what happens when bitcoin's value changes.
2618 2013-05-08 23:45:02 <tumak> cjd: there are smarted schemes than that
2619 2013-05-08 23:45:13 <tumak> cjd: but none as elegant as order based colored coins :(
2620 2013-05-08 23:45:20 <gmaxwell> cjd: a database of all satoshi is about 45 petabytes.
2621 2013-05-08 23:45:56 <cjd> indeed, you'd have to use a sorting algorithm to assume that all satoshis of the same color goto the same location within an output
2622 2013-05-08 23:46:05 <cjd> so you don't have deaggregation
2623 2013-05-08 23:46:13 icellan has quit (Quit: icellan)
2624 2013-05-08 23:46:48 <tumak> cjd: well, current contender is variation on https://github.com/petertodd/trustbits/blob/master/fidelitybond.md
2625 2013-05-08 23:46:59 <Rothgar> OK, so what is it? Does bitcoin-qt allow an adjusting of the .00005430 through the graphical interface. Is there a command line command that can change the .00005430
2626 2013-05-08 23:47:29 <gmaxwell> Rothgar: its adjustable through the commandline and config file. .... gah. You don't even understand the topic yourself. Why are you writing about this for other people? :(
2627 2013-05-08 23:47:36 randy-waterhouse has left ()
2628 2013-05-08 23:48:02 <tumak> gmaxwell: i think he's the perfect journalist
2629 2013-05-08 23:48:05 MobiusL has joined
2630 2013-05-08 23:48:11 <Rothgar> That's why I'm asking here, so that I do understand.
2631 2013-05-08 23:48:12 <gmaxwell> Rothgar: there isn't a graphical interface to it because its not especially great to have inconsistent values for it, because if the values are inconsistent people won't know what transactions were successfully forwarded.
2632 2013-05-08 23:48:26 <tumak> superficial understanding, but he comes into -dev to ask for explanation in layman terms
2633 2013-05-08 23:48:27 icellan has joined
2634 2013-05-08 23:48:35 <gmaxwell> Rothgar: You're right, sorryâ indeed you are here. Of course this has beene explained in the forum threads on the subject.
2635 2013-05-08 23:48:57 <cjd> typical problem, developers speak a different language than non-developers
2636 2013-05-08 23:49:06 <gmaxwell> I'm sort of burned out on explaining it.
2637 2013-05-08 23:49:11 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
2638 2013-05-08 23:49:30 <tumak> Rothgar: for me as one of color coin developers, the real problem is balkanization regarding the minimum tx
2639 2013-05-08 23:49:38 <gmaxwell> (esp since there are people who continue to post outright misinformation due to agressively limited understanding or god knows what motivations)
2640 2013-05-08 23:49:43 <Rothgar> I looked at the github request on the .00005430 it wasn't clear to me about the hard coded or not.
2641 2013-05-08 23:49:52 <tumak> since the dev stance is 'this is the default and youre free to choose the default', my biggest is worry every miner chooses different default
2642 2013-05-08 23:49:56 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
2643 2013-05-08 23:49:56 <cjd> god
2644 2013-05-08 23:50:05 <cjd> knows what motivations <-- how's that litecoin price
2645 2013-05-08 23:50:55 <gmaxwell> cjd: yea, some of the big chearleaders are litecoin people. (kinda ironic because the litcoin behavior is arguably far more agressive)
2646 2013-05-08 23:51:11 <Rothgar> gmaxwell: you're referring to the bitcointalk.org forum?
2647 2013-05-08 23:51:31 <cjd> the forum is full of insanity and ranting
2648 2013-05-08 23:51:45 <phantomcircuit> and outright lies
2649 2013-05-08 23:51:53 <phantomcircuit> lots and lots of outright lies
2650 2013-05-08 23:52:04 <gmaxwell> Rothgar: yes.
2651 2013-05-08 23:52:06 <phantomcircuit> indeed it's probably more misinformation than information
2652 2013-05-08 23:52:11 <phantomcircuit> snr < 0
2653 2013-05-08 23:52:16 <cjd> :D
2654 2013-05-08 23:52:21 <gmaxwell> Rothgar: RE the pull, "The dust/nonstandard test is based on the -mintxrelayfee."
2655 2013-05-08 23:52:56 <cjd> Rothgar: I lost your latest pastebin link, can you repaste?
2656 2013-05-08 23:52:59 <tumak> phantomcircuit: it's kind of reminiscent of minecraft forums
2657 2013-05-08 23:53:08 <tumak> altcoins being the individual servers being propped up etc
2658 2013-05-08 23:53:11 <Rothgar> http://pastebin.com/2bBPtQmL
2659 2013-05-08 23:53:14 <cjd> thx
2660 2013-05-08 23:53:18 <phantomcircuit> hmm
2661 2013-05-08 23:53:30 <phantomcircuit> maybe i should load a litecoin client in a vm and finish that exploit
2662 2013-05-08 23:53:41 <phantomcircuit> they're getting mighty annoying again
2663 2013-05-08 23:53:49 phantomcircuit has joined
2664 2013-05-08 23:53:52 <phantomcircuit> ok ok i'll stop
2665 2013-05-08 23:53:58 <cjd> Rothgar: "Static fees" <-- this might be read wrong, the minimum fee is actually dynamic
2666 2013-05-08 23:54:19 <gmaxwell> Yea, and not applied to a significant fraction of transactions.
2667 2013-05-08 23:54:24 <tumak> dynamic as in "arbitrary" because its on discretion of every relay and minar
2668 2013-05-08 23:54:30 <tumak> *miner
2669 2013-05-08 23:54:44 <Rothgar> cjd: Yes, what about static fee schedule?
2670 2013-05-08 23:54:45 <gmaxwell> And the behavior added by satoshi already discriminates against tiny (in that case <0.01) outputs.
2671 2013-05-08 23:55:24 <cjd> mmm
2672 2013-05-08 23:55:41 <cjd> I'm not following, I thought this was about minimum txout
2673 2013-05-08 23:55:48 <cjd> there was a fee change as well?
2674 2013-05-08 23:56:14 <MC1984> yeah why are the coloured coin people insisting on using 1 satoshi for thier stuff?
2675 2013-05-08 23:56:17 <phantomcircuit> cjd, i dont think so
2676 2013-05-08 23:56:23 <Rothgar> I have different sections. One is about the .0005 BTC/kB the other is about the min txout
2677 2013-05-08 23:56:25 <gmaxwell> Rothgar: there is no "static fee" there is a base fee of 0.0005 BTC/kb and fees below that are treated as zero. Some transactions require a fee (after the treated as zero filtering) â ones with outputs less than 0.01 BTC or with low priority.
2678 2013-05-08 23:56:26 cads has joined
2679 2013-05-08 23:56:30 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, cheapness?
2680 2013-05-08 23:56:36 <MC1984> am i making an assumption of logic where none exists?
2681 2013-05-08 23:56:53 <phantomcircuit> probably
2682 2013-05-08 23:56:55 <MC1984> how much does 6000 satoshis cost?
2683 2013-05-08 23:56:56 <gmaxwell> Rothgar: you're basically repeating a common misunderstanding, you might understand it yourself... but your simplification is confusing/wrong. :(
2684 2013-05-08 23:57:06 <cjd> gmaxwell: is this fee thing an 8.2 change ?
2685 2013-05-08 23:57:25 <cjd> I thought the only 8.2 change was re dust outputs
2686 2013-05-08 23:57:36 <ezdiy> MC1984: sending 6000 satoshis costs 50k satoshis :)
2687 2013-05-08 23:57:38 <ezdiy> as always
2688 2013-05-08 23:57:39 <gmaxwell> cjd: thats been the behavior since 0.3.18 the originally the 0.0005 there was 0.01 which was reduced to 0.0005 in 0.3.24.
2689 2013-05-08 23:57:41 <MC1984> colour coins aint gon do them any good if the whole system falls over under the weight of the UTXO
2690 2013-05-08 23:57:41 <Rothgar> cjd: the fee will go down in 0.8.2 (likely)
2691 2013-05-08 23:57:47 Blackreign_ has quit ()
2692 2013-05-08 23:57:58 <ezdiy> the change is you cant send 1 satoshi for 50k fee anymore
2693 2013-05-08 23:58:03 <MC1984> it would seem rational to make adjustments to help the integrity of the system which your precious assets are linked to
2694 2013-05-08 23:58:04 <gmaxwell> git reduces that number to 0.0001
2695 2013-05-08 23:58:10 <cjd> oh
2696 2013-05-08 23:58:12 <Rothgar> gmaxwell: Fair enough I've over simplified it.
2697 2013-05-08 23:58:12 <cjd> ok
2698 2013-05-08 23:58:26 <cjd> Rothgar: perhaps "reduction in fees" headline?
2699 2013-05-08 23:58:27 mrkent has joined
2700 2013-05-08 23:58:29 <gmaxwell> Rothgar: even say "the fee" ... it's not really the fee. It's a fee threshold.
2701 2013-05-08 23:58:43 <cjd> and then a quick explaination of what fees do and why they have been reduced?
2702 2013-05-08 23:58:51 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, well to be entirely fair the live UTXO set shouldn't be that expensive
2703 2013-05-08 23:59:23 <MC1984> maybe not now but it might be, thats the problem right?
2704 2013-05-08 23:59:27 <gmaxwell> sipa: did you ever make an updated http://bitcoin.sipa.be/pruning-txout.png ?
2705 2013-05-08 23:59:32 Luke-Jr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2706 2013-05-08 23:59:50 <Rothgar> How big (bytes) is the UTXO database, if made today?