1 2013-05-10 00:00:16 <seongyupyoo> hello?
   2 2013-05-10 00:00:25 <seongyupyoo> Anyone here?
   3 2013-05-10 00:00:56 <SirDefaced> no we are all imaginary.
   4 2013-05-10 00:01:03 <SirDefaced> :)
   5 2013-05-10 00:01:20 <Diablo-D3> [16:17] <joepie91> " I wrote a tool called SQLrillex. When you run it, it drops all databases."
   6 2013-05-10 00:01:30 <SirDefaced> lol
   7 2013-05-10 00:01:36 <seongyupyoo> I'm trying to look up how much money was sent to an address
   8 2013-05-10 00:01:46 <seongyupyoo> through bitcoin-qt rpc
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  14 2013-05-10 00:04:49 <rdponticelli> seongyupyoo: If the address isn't in your wallet, you can't and you musn't even try
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  16 2013-05-10 00:05:30 <seongyupyoo> ok, how about looking up : from address and amount with a transaction id? through bitcoin-qt rpc
  17 2013-05-10 00:06:07 <seongyupyoo> from address is missing when i do gettransaction
  18 2013-05-10 00:06:27 <seongyupyoo> blockexplorer.com somehow gets it, how?
  19 2013-05-10 00:06:36 <shesek> try with getrawtransaction
  20 2013-05-10 00:06:43 <shesek> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Raw_Transactions#getrawtransaction_.3Ctxid.3E_.5Bverbose.3D0.5D
  21 2013-05-10 00:07:08 <rdponticelli> seongyupyoo: There's not from address
  22 2013-05-10 00:07:24 <seongyupyoo> How does blockexplorer.com do everything that they do then?
  23 2013-05-10 00:07:49 <seongyupyoo> They can show all the information I just asked, that you say I can't and that I shouldn't even try
  24 2013-05-10 00:08:32 <rdponticelli> You can setup a huge database if you want to do what blockexplore do, with huge indexes...
  25 2013-05-10 00:09:02 <rdponticelli> But all that information is useless to understand bitcoin
  26 2013-05-10 00:09:14 <rdponticelli> What are you trying to do?
  27 2013-05-10 00:09:29 <shesek> seongyupyoo, you can see which addresses owned those coins before, but they aren't necessarily controlled by whoever made the payment
  28 2013-05-10 00:10:10 <seongyupyoo> shesek: so getrawtransaction returns hex right? and i can decode that, will I see from information?
  29 2013-05-10 00:10:18 <sipa> seongyupyoo: add a 1
  30 2013-05-10 00:10:26 <sipa> there's an optional argument to decode it
  31 2013-05-10 00:10:37 <sipa> (or you can use decoderawtransaction)
  32 2013-05-10 00:10:57 <sipa> seongyupyoo: and no, transactions do not *have* from information
  33 2013-05-10 00:11:12 <sipa> they refer to specific previous outputs of other transactions, which they consume
  34 2013-05-10 00:11:24 <sipa> you can look up to what address those outputs were previously sent
  35 2013-05-10 00:12:04 <sipa> but this 1) is not a way to determine who sent it, or find a refund address  2) is not part of the transaction itself  3) may not exist at all (in the case of complex transactions)
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  38 2013-05-10 00:13:56 <seongyupyoo> thank you sipa
  39 2013-05-10 00:14:15 <seongyupyoo> the inability to find refund address was very helpful
  40 2013-05-10 00:14:35 <seongyupyoo> so address i see in from address is not who sent it correct?
  41 2013-05-10 00:14:50 <sipa> no, it's what address the coins were previously sent to
  42 2013-05-10 00:15:00 <seongyupyoo> so i can't possibly know who to send the money back to by looking at a transaction or an address right?
  43 2013-05-10 00:15:10 <sipa> for example, if someone sends you coins from mtgox, it will be an address owned by mtgox
  44 2013-05-10 00:15:23 <sipa> and sending something to it will likely not credit the user who sent it
  45 2013-05-10 00:15:33 <seongyupyoo> i see
  46 2013-05-10 00:15:37 <sipa> indeed, if you need a refund address, ask for one
  47 2013-05-10 00:15:56 <seongyupyoo> thank you very much
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  49 2013-05-10 00:16:29 <seongyupyoo> i'm going to stay signed on here, but i'm leaving my desk
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  88 2013-05-10 00:49:07 <seongyupyoo> sipa: when I send bitcoin, which of my addresses is being used?
  89 2013-05-10 00:49:14 seeingidog__ has quit (Client Quit)
  90 2013-05-10 00:49:22 <sipa> any
  91 2013-05-10 00:49:40 <sipa> as said: bitcoin transactions do not send from an _address_
  92 2013-05-10 00:49:50 <seongyupyoo> for when I use the bitcoin-qt to send someone 1 BTC, what would show up in the from address in the transaction?
  93 2013-05-10 00:50:08 <sipa> the address the input coins were previously sent to
  94 2013-05-10 00:50:14 <sipa> which may be any of your wallet addresses
  95 2013-05-10 00:50:20 <CodeShark> the from address is actually potentially many different inputs
  96 2013-05-10 00:50:21 <sipa> including change addresses which are hidden
  97 2013-05-10 00:50:38 Luke-Jr has joined
  98 2013-05-10 00:50:40 <seongyupyoo> ok, thank you
  99 2013-05-10 00:51:55 <Lolcust> sipa - got a few minutes for an ultraprune-related weird hypothetical situation / question ?
 100 2013-05-10 00:52:08 <Lolcust> I'm probably just being dense, so it won't take much time
 101 2013-05-10 00:52:13 <sipa> Lolcust: don't ask to ask
 102 2013-05-10 00:54:00 <Lolcust> sipa mkay. Assume there is a small bitcoin-like network of several nodes, but every single one of them has been running ultraprune-with-block removal for quite some time, so their blockchain is at this point mostly genesis block, a long header string, and several thousand "terminal blocks" they don't discard to handle reorgs.
 103 2013-05-10 00:55:04 <sipa> ok
 104 2013-05-10 00:55:48 <Lolcust> Assume Alice wants to join the weirdos - but since none of them bothered with having a full chain, she can't build a "proper" UTXO, right ? And so, if she were to borrow the UTXO from one of the old nodes, she would have to "trust" that the node hasn't snuck a bullshit transaction there before sending it to her (under the guise of a transaction originating from a block that was prunned long ago)
 105 2013-05-10 00:55:54 <Lolcust> right ?
 106 2013-05-10 00:56:02 <sipa> absolutely
 107 2013-05-10 00:56:08 <CodeShark> there have to be at least a few full nodes on the network for bitcoin to work
 108 2013-05-10 00:56:25 <Lolcust> Hm, okay - let's modify this a bit, since the weirdos are altcoiners anyway
 109 2013-05-10 00:56:40 <sipa> or committing an authenticated datastructure with the UTXO data to the coinbase
 110 2013-05-10 00:56:43 pablog has quit (Quit: pablog)
 111 2013-05-10 00:56:48 <sipa> (or even better, to the headers)
 112 2013-05-10 00:57:31 xire has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
 113 2013-05-10 00:58:09 <sipa> (which would allow someone to grab an UTXO set from an untrusted peer, and compare it with the committed hash of it in the block at the height the peer knows about)
 114 2013-05-10 00:58:36 <CodeShark> you could grab the merkle tree
 115 2013-05-10 00:58:55 <Lolcust> sipa That's what I was going to suggest :) put hash of UTXO-as-you-see-it  into the coinbase when mining
 116 2013-05-10 00:58:55 <sipa> "the" merkle tree?
 117 2013-05-10 00:59:10 <sipa> Lolcust: yes, that's an old idea, but doing it efficiently is hard
 118 2013-05-10 00:59:11 <CodeShark> well, the portion of it necessary to verify it against the block header
 119 2013-05-10 00:59:35 <sipa> CodeShark: what "the" merkle tree?
 120 2013-05-10 00:59:42 <sipa> which tree are you talking about?
 121 2013-05-10 01:00:13 <Lolcust> sipa what would be the efficiency constraint, beyond obvious "there are 256 bits of pseudorandomness to be stuffed into the coinbase now" ?
 122 2013-05-10 01:00:24 <CodeShark> if you grab a UTXO from a peer, you could ask for the leaf hashes of the merkle tree which gives the merkle tree hash
 123 2013-05-10 01:00:40 <sipa> CodeShark: WHICH TREE?
 124 2013-05-10 01:00:47 sl1982 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 125 2013-05-10 01:00:49 <CodeShark> lol
 126 2013-05-10 01:01:02 <sipa> i know what a merkle tree is, you don't need to explain that
 127 2013-05-10 01:01:23 <sipa> but you seem to assume the UTXO set is somehow constructed as a tree?
 128 2013-05-10 01:01:28 <CodeShark> there are two merkle trees?
 129 2013-05-10 01:01:41 <CodeShark> I wasn't aware the UTXO set is constructed as a tree at all in the block chain
 130 2013-05-10 01:01:45 <sipa> it isn't
 131 2013-05-10 01:01:49 <CodeShark> you need the full transaction containing it
 132 2013-05-10 01:01:52 <sipa> but what tree are you talking about then?
 133 2013-05-10 01:02:06 <sipa> the one connecting transactions to blocks?
 134 2013-05-10 01:02:16 <CodeShark> yes
 135 2013-05-10 01:02:25 sl1982 has joined
 136 2013-05-10 01:02:26 <sipa> that requires fully indexed access to all transactions in all blocks
 137 2013-05-10 01:02:43 <sipa> and it's not enough
 138 2013-05-10 01:02:48 <CodeShark> right, so you'd need to grab it from a node that has that index
 139 2013-05-10 01:02:54 <sipa> as the peer can't prove that it wasn't spent already
 140 2013-05-10 01:03:11 <CodeShark> right, there's the second issue
 141 2013-05-10 01:03:32 AlbertTuring has joined
 142 2013-05-10 01:03:33 <sipa> the only viable solution i see is indeed turning the UTXO set into a normative tree structure
 143 2013-05-10 01:03:40 <sipa> which can be "merkleized"
 144 2013-05-10 01:03:52 <sipa> and the merkle root of this tree put into block headers
 145 2013-05-10 01:03:54 <CodeShark> I guess I wasn't clear on whether Lolcust meant that the peer substitutes the UTXO with something else - or whether the peer spends the UTXO
 146 2013-05-10 01:03:56 <sipa> (or coinbases)
 147 2013-05-10 01:04:08 <Lolcust> CodeShark:
 148 2013-05-10 01:04:26 <sipa> Lolcust: if you're going to traverse the entire UTXO set for creating or verifying any block, you're going to have a hard time
 149 2013-05-10 01:04:38 <sipa> (it takes around 20s on my machine, for bitcoin)
 150 2013-05-10 01:07:15 <CodeShark> Lolcust, were you going to say something?
 151 2013-05-10 01:07:18 xire has joined
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 154 2013-05-10 01:07:29 <Lolcust> Sorry, writing from a touch screen.
 155 2013-05-10 01:07:33 <CodeShark> ah, haha
 156 2013-05-10 01:07:36 <Lolcust> Mis-poke
 157 2013-05-10 01:07:40 realazthat_ has joined
 158 2013-05-10 01:08:03 <Lolcust> sipa  so basically, it is problematic to create UTXO hash at a reasonable speed, due to size of the entire thing being somewhat large, right ?
 159 2013-05-10 01:08:13 <sipa> Lolcust: large, and growing
 160 2013-05-10 01:08:26 Luke-Jr has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 161 2013-05-10 01:08:40 <sipa> Lolcust: so the solution is turning the UTXO set into a tree, and use merkle structures to always maintain a hash of every node
 162 2013-05-10 01:09:08 <Lolcust> and the problem to that would be ?...
 163 2013-05-10 01:09:18 <sipa> someone has to implement it
 164 2013-05-10 01:09:22 <Lolcust> heh
 165 2013-05-10 01:09:37 <sipa> and convince pretty much everyone that it scales
 166 2013-05-10 01:09:45 <gmaxwell> and it's not something that you can implement casually, as its normative and will have major performance implications.
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 170 2013-05-10 01:10:47 <Jere_Jones> gmaxwell: What do you mean by "its normative"?
 171 2013-05-10 01:10:47 <gmaxwell> e.g. if the design requires a really inefficient implementation because it was designed around a utxo size that was small enough to fit in ram, then it would be very regretable once the utxo grew.
 172 2013-05-10 01:10:57 <sipa> Jere_Jones: it would become part of a network rule
 173 2013-05-10 01:11:07 <sipa> Jere_Jones: so it can't be easily changed afterwards
 174 2013-05-10 01:11:10 <gmaxwell> Jere_Jones: everyone must do it, and do it exactly the same.
 175 2013-05-10 01:11:16 <Jere_Jones> Ah
 176 2013-05-10 01:11:27 nizeguy has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 177 2013-05-10 01:11:46 <gmaxwell> and while we have a ton of normative stuff, it would be the most complex single normative thing in the protocol.
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 180 2013-05-10 01:12:23 <Lolcust> I'm somewhat surprised that hashing the UTXO would take 20s at current size. Other than that, yeah, problems make sense.
 181 2013-05-10 01:12:31 <gmaxwell> (well perhaps the trie stuff isn't so terribly bad, but the self balancing stuff is non-trivial.... the rotations have to be implemented just so)
 182 2013-05-10 01:12:41 <sipa> Lolcust: that includes reading it from disk, decompressing, ...
 183 2013-05-10 01:12:49 <sipa> Lolcust: on a VPS with slow I/O :)
 184 2013-05-10 01:13:23 <sipa> my laptop does it in 5s apparently
 185 2013-05-10 01:13:31 <Lolcust> Wait, doesn't it sit in ram, currently ? (I realize gmaxwell's point that there won't be always enough ram)
 186 2013-05-10 01:13:38 <seongyupyoo> sipa: another question
 187 2013-05-10 01:13:55 <sipa> Lolcust: it's cached heavily, so you'll likely have the important parts in ram
 188 2013-05-10 01:14:03 <gmaxwell> Lolcust: no, of course not. then all nodes would catch fire once it grew too big. Of course it's likely in disk cache.
 189 2013-05-10 01:14:13 <sipa> Lolcust: but the utxo_hash calculation i have implemented now bypasses the cache
 190 2013-05-10 01:14:59 AndChat has joined
 191 2013-05-10 01:15:16 <Lolcust> I wonder though - does one really need this... thing in every block (and for that matter, to check it upon block verification) ? it is, essentially, a breadcrumb for bootstrapping, nothing more and nothing else
 192 2013-05-10 01:15:19 <seongyupyoo> sipa: if i send money to an address, and the transaction shows many from addresses, are those from addresses all my addresses? So if whoever received that money was to return all the money evenly back to all the from addresses, would my wallet get all the money back?
 193 2013-05-10 01:15:51 <seongyupyoo> minus transaction fee ofcourse
 194 2013-05-10 01:16:13 <sipa> Lolcust: doing it once every N blocks is also possible, but that may have weird incentives for miners getting close to that block, perhaps
 195 2013-05-10 01:16:18 <sipa> seongyupyoo: yes, but don't
 196 2013-05-10 01:16:25 <seongyupyoo> why?
 197 2013-05-10 01:16:37 <sipa> seongyupyoo: because it will only work for non-shared wallets
 198 2013-05-10 01:16:42 <sipa> for the reasons i told you
 199 2013-05-10 01:17:00 <seongyupyoo> oh, so if it was on one of those hosted wallet addresses, it wouldn't work huh?
 200 2013-05-10 01:17:05 <sipa> no
 201 2013-05-10 01:17:09 <seongyupyoo> thank you
 202 2013-05-10 01:17:12 <seongyupyoo> you're genius
 203 2013-05-10 01:17:19 <seongyupyoo> what do you do sipa?
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 205 2013-05-10 01:17:29 <sipa> i'm currently typing on a keyboard
 206 2013-05-10 01:17:35 <seongyupyoo> lol me too
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 208 2013-05-10 01:17:48 <sipa> as said: the "from" address is what address the coins were previously sent to; it doesn't mean sending something to it will cause them to end up with the sender
 209 2013-05-10 01:17:57 <sipa> there is no "sender" information in bitcoin transactions
 210 2013-05-10 01:18:02 Vinnie_win has joined
 211 2013-05-10 01:18:11 <seongyupyoo> yes, i got that now
 212 2013-05-10 01:18:13 <Vinnie_win> Does anyone know the URL for the Jenkins console for Bitcoin?
 213 2013-05-10 01:18:23 <sipa> Lolcust: doing it once every N blocks is also possible, but that may have weird incentives for miners getting close to that block, perhaps
 214 2013-05-10 01:18:43 <sipa> Vinnie_win: ask BlueMatt
 215 2013-05-10 01:18:52 <Vinnie_win> ahh that's the name I was groping for...thanks!
 216 2013-05-10 01:19:05 <sipa> oh, it's just http://jenkins.bluematt.me/
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 218 2013-05-10 01:21:43 <gmaxwell> Lolcust: not doing it every block means that you can't validate storage free (without holding the whole utxo) and it doesn't save you computation if you're storing the data structure in in a persistent hash tree.
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 220 2013-05-10 01:22:26 <Lolcust> gmaxwell didn't get the "storage free" part
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 222 2013-05-10 01:23:06 <gmaxwell> Lolcust: say you get a block. you don't have the utxo. you want to know if the block is valid.
 223 2013-05-10 01:23:14 <Lolcust> as in, can't validate without having a UTXO to call my own, IC
 224 2013-05-10 01:23:43 <gmaxwell> Lolcust: you say to your peer, "screw you. Prove to me the validity of this block, by giving me the required fragments of the utxo tree in the block before it, thus proving every input it spends was in that tree"
 225 2013-05-10 01:25:16 XertroV has joined
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 227 2013-05-10 01:25:41 <gmaxwell> now... how useful this is isn't clear, since the amount of data is log(utxo_entries) * (1 + (txn_in_block-1) * α)  for some 0>α<=1  .. .. but if blocks tend to have few transactions it would be viable.
 228 2013-05-10 01:26:27 <gmaxwell> (alpha there is some factor that depends on how much merging there is in tree fragments)
 229 2013-05-10 01:27:10 <sipa> it may be a useful strategy for some implementation that only validates its own payments
 230 2013-05-10 01:27:17 <sipa> perhaps to a certain depth
 231 2013-05-10 01:27:38 <sipa> hmm, that'd require access to historic UTXO sets though
 232 2013-05-10 01:27:41 <Lolcust> well, those UTXO hashes are, in this hypothetical, essentially breadcrumbs for new nodes to bootstrap w/o full chain... and the only reason to even make them part of block validation rules is for malicious miners not to "poison the breadcrumbs" out of sheer vandalism, no ?
 233 2013-05-10 01:28:05 <gmaxwell> Lolcust: I just described a non-breadcrumbs motivation.
 234 2013-05-10 01:28:37 <gmaxwell> If the UTXO has sidecar value sums it also allows randomized non-inflation checking by nodes that otherwise don't have the utxo.
 235 2013-05-10 01:28:56 nova90 has joined
 236 2013-05-10 01:29:30 <Lolcust> as in, nodes that bother neither with UTXO nor with blockchain storage ?
 237 2013-05-10 01:29:36 XertroV has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 238 2013-05-10 01:29:36 ivan\ has quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs))
 239 2013-05-10 01:29:59 <gmaxwell> sipa: keeping old copies isn't so expensive for some tree datastructures, at least going a few blocks back. E.g. when there is a change you move the prior child to another pointer and then rebuild below it. Garbage collect at the end. You basically need to do something in that class in order to survive torn updates.
 240 2013-05-10 01:30:15 ivan\ has joined
 241 2013-05-10 01:30:18 <gmaxwell> Lolcust: yes, lite/spv nodes.
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 245 2013-05-10 01:30:42 <gmaxwell> Lolcust: basically if the uxto is constructed correctly then spv nodes can randomly validate ~everything at low cost.
 246 2013-05-10 01:30:42 Chuky has quit (Quit: • IRcap • 8.71 •)
 247 2013-05-10 01:31:41 <Lolcust> Well, what I had in mind was... much cruder.
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 250 2013-05-10 01:32:12 <gmaxwell> well, thats another thing about normative behaviors... there is a motivation to try to make sure they meet every need.
 251 2013-05-10 01:32:30 <gmaxwell> Hard to deploy a version that allows that stuff later if you also have to support one that doesn't.
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 255 2013-05-10 01:38:20 <Lolcust> Actually, even the "crude" implementation of "calculate UTXO hash at very rare protocol specified intervals (say, every 4000 blocks) and insert it a large interval of blocks after calculating (nHeight at which calculated + 500) would get hairy
 256 2013-05-10 01:38:41 <Lolcust> since you still need to account for reorgs that might "uproot" that block at which you calculated it
 257 2013-05-10 01:38:49 <Lolcust> and a whole truck of transactions
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 260 2013-05-10 01:40:11 <Lolcust> On the other hand, a very crude implementation that would leverage dev-checkpoints as "forgetfullness mandates" of sorts would work splendidly
 261 2013-05-10 01:40:35 <gavinandresen> … back from little league game....
 262 2013-05-10 01:40:45 <gavinandresen> Draft 0.8.2 release notes:  https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/5551802
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 264 2013-05-10 01:41:24 <Lolcust> I mean, if one is doing manual, hardcoded checkpoints (which BTC and every half-sane alt do), one may as well do it in a manner that allows to "forget away" large swaths of blockchain
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 267 2013-05-10 01:42:03 <Lolcust> You'd just need to hardcode UTXOhash alongside blockhash, et voila
 268 2013-05-10 01:42:52 <Lolcust> As a temporary solution, that seems fairly decent
 269 2013-05-10 01:43:04 <sipa> Lolcust: bleh
 270 2013-05-10 01:43:33 <Lolcust> As my GF says, I don't have a taste for elegance
 271 2013-05-10 01:45:36 <Lolcust> sipa besides, this solution will be compatible with whatever better solution to eventually arise. And you could allow people to choose whether they want to maintain the "whole sausage" which would be very democratic
 272 2013-05-10 01:45:39 <sipa> i'd rather push for something like you described, with a simple linear hash of the UTXO set calculated every N blocks, and and put in the coinbase P blocks later
 273 2013-05-10 01:45:44 <gmaxwell> Lolcust: well everyone still has to validate it, otherwise its still meaningless.
 274 2013-05-10 01:46:23 <Lolcust> Validate the dev-hardcoded one, or the compute every N blocks put it P blocks later ?
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 276 2013-05-10 01:46:49 <Lolcust> Because I see reason for validating the latter (otherwise, a malicious miner would start poisoning breadcrumbs)
 277 2013-05-10 01:46:51 <gmaxwell> I missed your hardcoded one comment thats horrible
 278 2013-05-10 01:46:55 <sipa> the only problem is that to repeal that (because a better solution is found, merkle-UTXO's for example), we'd need a hardfork
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 280 2013-05-10 01:47:08 <gmaxwell> just give up and sign every block like ppcoin if you don't care about having a decenteralized system.
 281 2013-05-10 01:47:18 <Lolcust> gmaxwell:
 282 2013-05-10 01:47:39 <Lolcust> oh sorry, again - anyway , you're hardcoding checkpoints anyway
 283 2013-05-10 01:48:43 <Lolcust> If you are hardcoding "thou shall not pass" structures, you may as well get something out of it. Besides, it's not like you forbid people to carry the damn thing
 284 2013-05-10 01:48:56 <Lolcust> they can meticulously maintain the whole chain
 285 2013-05-10 01:50:24 <Lolcust> sipa frankly, to me, the bigger problem (than repealing it) are reorgs (which maybe can be sort of helped by really large wait time after making the UTXO hash... there are no non-cataclysmic circumstances for, say, a 1000 block reorg) and validation
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 287 2013-05-10 01:51:54 <Lolcust> validation of breadcrumbed blocks becomes very annoying, and in fact calls for at least a rudimentary tree... which is "back to sq. 1" it seems
 288 2013-05-10 01:53:55 <Lolcust> Hm, well, I guess you could probably get away with just a hash chain for something as rare as hypothetical breadcrumbs, and use it as an interrim solution until a better one is thoroughly designed. Very thought-provoking
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 293 2013-05-10 01:58:06 <gmaxwell> Lolcust: fwiw, sipa and I would like to not include checkpoints in the future, once the sync process is more robust.  Maybe that doesn't ultimately happen, but it isn't the case that they're considered a clear good. Mostly we think of them as an unfortunate workaround for weaknesses in the sync process.
 294 2013-05-10 01:59:06 <gmaxwell> but having them substantially dillutes understanding of the consensus process and makes it easy for people to tell themselves some centeralized process is essential to process.
 295 2013-05-10 01:59:17 <Lolcust> Well, I understand that they are an unfortunate compromise
 296 2013-05-10 01:59:33 <gmaxwell> they're perfectly avoidable with smarter sync.
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 298 2013-05-10 01:59:56 <Lolcust> I just think that if you're (a factual matter) making unfortunate compromise (right now), you may as well squeeze as many good things out of it as possible
 299 2013-05-10 02:00:42 <Lolcust> And it seems like a very convenient place where nodes (if they so desire, strictly voluntarily) may start forgetting stuff
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 301 2013-05-10 02:08:06 <Lolcust> Thobut yeah, the "hash at N, insert at P" thing woudl probably be less annoyingly controversial and more autonomous
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 347 2013-05-10 03:02:37 <seongyupyoo> What's the easiest way to get bitcoins in a set of public/private key into my wallet?
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 350 2013-05-10 03:07:08 <seongyupyoo> anyone?
 351 2013-05-10 03:07:31 resinate has joined
 352 2013-05-10 03:07:36 <seongyupyoo> I know I can make a raw transaction, but I'm asking for a regular user who does not code.
 353 2013-05-10 03:10:22 <d34th> you could import the private key
 354 2013-05-10 03:10:37 <d34th> seongyupyoo: ^
 355 2013-05-10 03:10:41 <seongyupyoo> i don't think you can do that bitcoin-qt can you?
 356 2013-05-10 03:10:54 <d34th> click about
 357 2013-05-10 03:10:59 <d34th> hit debug mode
 358 2013-05-10 03:11:07 <d34th> you can get to the rpc console from there
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 361 2013-05-10 03:11:47 <seongyupyoo> oh yeah, i know, but i don't expect users to do that
 362 2013-05-10 03:12:56 <seongyupyoo> lol, i just thought about making a service that takes public and private key and sends the money in there to another address, then i thought, how would anyone trust that service lol
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 407 2013-05-10 03:53:30 <monad7> what is the build switch that turns on transaction indexing?
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 409 2013-05-10 03:54:14 <gonffen> can't you just set index=1 in bitcoin.conf?
 410 2013-05-10 03:54:24 <monad7> ah thanks
 411 2013-05-10 03:56:45 <gonffen> I think what I saw about that said you would need to -reindex the first time (if that wasn't obvious)
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 418 2013-05-10 04:05:59 <monad7> so after you set index=1 in bitcoin.conf do you have to do anything?
 419 2013-05-10 04:06:30 <monad7> oh so
 420 2013-05-10 04:06:34 <monad7> bitcoind -reindex ?
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 495 2013-05-10 05:29:40 <gonffen> ;;diff
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 615 2013-05-10 08:03:26 <wallet43> when i download the blockchain to a new node what taking the longest time? script/ecdsa verification?
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 617 2013-05-10 08:05:18 <sipa> depends
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 621 2013-05-10 08:09:39 <wallet43> sipa: on what?
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 623 2013-05-10 08:10:18 <sipa> wallet43: the peer you're downloading from, mostly
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 638 2013-05-10 08:18:49 <ripemd> as we all know, the security of bitcoins residing at a certain address relies in no small part on the security of the private key.
 639 2013-05-10 08:19:02 <ripemd> entropy, generation must be immaculate
 640 2013-05-10 08:19:16 <sipa> indeed
 641 2013-05-10 08:19:16 <ripemd> let me now draw your attention to this - https://github.com/zamgo/PHPCoinAddress/blob/master/PHPCoinAddress.php
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 643 2013-05-10 08:19:35 <ripemd> in particular, the standard for generating the private key, on line 217
 644 2013-05-10 08:19:39 <ripemd> for ($i = 0; $i < 32; $i++) { $privBin .= chr(mt_rand(0, $i ? 0xff : 0xfe)); }
 645 2013-05-10 08:20:26 <ripemd> had to sit down when I read that one.
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 649 2013-05-10 08:21:30 <coingenuity> ripemd: lol
 650 2013-05-10 08:21:34 <sipa> what? not even a cryptogrpahic PRNG?
 651 2013-05-10 08:21:55 <sipa> i clearly have been overestimating PHP coder
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 653 2013-05-10 08:21:58 <sipa> s
 654 2013-05-10 08:22:02 <coingenuity> i guess they assumed /dev/rand would have sufficient entropy..
 655 2013-05-10 08:22:06 <coingenuity> (noob)
 656 2013-05-10 08:22:15 <ripemd> nope. a pseudorandom generator with a 31bit seed
 657 2013-05-10 08:22:33 <coingenuity> well, thats discomforting
 658 2013-05-10 08:22:39 <jouke> Great warning at php.net/mt-rand "This function does not generate cryptographically secure values, and should not be used for cryptographic purposes."
 659 2013-05-10 08:22:40 <nsh>  oooft
 660 2013-05-10 08:22:45 <coingenuity> i guess there's a lot of privkeys out there with crap entropy at the heart
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 662 2013-05-10 08:22:48 <coingenuity> :(
 663 2013-05-10 08:22:58 <coingenuity> in before someone pwns them all
 664 2013-05-10 08:23:19 <nsh> they should just replace php.net with a big boilerplate stating "This language does not generate good code and should not be used for programming."
 665 2013-05-10 08:23:21 <sipa> ripemd: so try building a blacklist of those 2^31 private keys, and steal their coibs
 666 2013-05-10 08:23:38 <ripemd> the kicker is, there's an even easier PHP function that will generate a hex string that is from a CSRNG
 667 2013-05-10 08:24:14 <ripemd> sipa: I think it's funny, but I'm not really interested in stealing other people's money
 668 2013-05-10 08:24:26 <coingenuity> ripemd: which function is that?
 669 2013-05-10 08:24:47 <ripemd> coingenuity:  openssl_random_pseudo_bytes()
 670 2013-05-10 08:24:52 <coingenuity> ahh
 671 2013-05-10 08:24:54 <coingenuity> openssl function
 672 2013-05-10 08:24:56 <coingenuity> figures :D
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 675 2013-05-10 08:25:19 <coingenuity> good to know, ripemd...taught me something new about PHP today
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 679 2013-05-10 08:26:01 <ripemd> coingenuity: if you want to learn more, read the comments on some of the php.net pages
 680 2013-05-10 08:26:39 <ripemd> I found one suggesting that seeding the RNG with crc32(time)) will somehow make it more secure.
 681 2013-05-10 08:26:52 <coingenuity> ripemd: i've been considering coding a cryptographically secure bitcoin stack in php, so i probably shall :)
 682 2013-05-10 08:27:01 <sipa> ripemd: neither am i, would i would be interested in finding out whether people are actually sending coins to those addresses
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 687 2013-05-10 08:27:55 <ripemd> coingenuity: you might suffer trying to do that, the math functions for PHP are hilariously slow. you're looking at 2+ seconds to create a single bitcoin address
 688 2013-05-10 08:28:40 <ripemd> sipa: I wouldn't doubt that they are. there's other PHP implementations that are in wider use (part of payment processing plugins mainly) that look suspect as well
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 690 2013-05-10 08:29:19 <coingenuity> ripemd: i dont particularly expect it to be fast, at least compared to a native client
 691 2013-05-10 08:29:36 <ripemd> sipa: by the looks of it, even the private key 0x1 has been used before (in 2012)
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 693 2013-05-10 08:31:31 <coingenuity> ripemd: speaking of
 694 2013-05-10 08:31:46 <coingenuity> i did find one major gaping hole in one of the most prevalent shopping cart plugins recently
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 696 2013-05-10 08:32:05 <coingenuity> (was auditing some of the mainline code out there)
 697 2013-05-10 08:32:07 <ripemd> coingenuity: I suspect I know which one you mean, though the name of it escapes me. it's a plugin for a wordpress setup, right?
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 699 2013-05-10 08:33:35 <nsh> !quotes add <coingenuity> ripemd: i've been considering coding a cryptographically secure bitcoin stack in php, so i probably shall :)
 700 2013-05-10 08:33:35 <gribble> Error: "quotes" is not a valid command.
 701 2013-05-10 08:33:44 * nsh pets gribble
 702 2013-05-10 08:33:50 <coingenuity> nsh: lol
 703 2013-05-10 08:34:46 <nsh> :)
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 706 2013-05-10 08:37:15 <sipa> hmm, 30us to generate a private key in PHP using that code
 707 2013-05-10 08:37:34 <sipa> i think that's comparable to how long it takes to convert a private key to a public key in C...
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 709 2013-05-10 08:38:01 <ripemd> surely not
 710 2013-05-10 08:38:15 <sipa> pretty sure it is
 711 2013-05-10 08:38:23 <sipa> (in order of magnitude)
 712 2013-05-10 08:38:49 <coingenuity> PHP isn't the fastest gun in the west, but it's also not horribly slow either
 713 2013-05-10 08:38:56 <sipa> it's not?
 714 2013-05-10 08:39:05 <sipa> tell me something slower
 715 2013-05-10 08:39:07 <coingenuity> i have some math-intensive things written in PHP that are actually fairly quick
 716 2013-05-10 08:39:19 <ripemd> sipa: it takes 1.5s for me to generate a keypair using that code
 717 2013-05-10 08:39:30 <sipa> ripemd: i'm talking about generating a private key
 718 2013-05-10 08:39:32 <coingenuity> sipa: most java(key word most), c#, ruby, shit like that tends to run slower than php
 719 2013-05-10 08:39:37 <chmod755> ^
 720 2013-05-10 08:39:40 <chmod755> java
 721 2013-05-10 08:39:42 <ripemd> sipa: gotcha.
 722 2013-05-10 08:39:43 <chmod755> totally
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 724 2013-05-10 08:40:03 <SebX> isn't python a bit slower as well...
 725 2013-05-10 08:40:07 <sipa> hard to believe
 726 2013-05-10 08:40:08 <coingenuity> yes, php can be....not amazingly fast....but its also not terrible in the scope of things
 727 2013-05-10 08:40:13 <coingenuity> SebX: nah, py is faster
 728 2013-05-10 08:40:23 <coingenuity> but its also a lot more annoying to code (in my opinion)
 729 2013-05-10 08:40:30 <sipa> what do you mean by mathy stuff? bigint stuff?
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 731 2013-05-10 08:40:53 <coingenuity> sipa: trading algorithm rapid prototyping library
 732 2013-05-10 08:41:00 <sipa> k
 733 2013-05-10 08:41:02 <coingenuity> for running simulations on algo's against historical data
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 736 2013-05-10 08:42:41 <chmod755> it also depends on how you're coding things.... i'm pretty sure that 99% of all applications could be faster using the same programming language
 737 2013-05-10 08:43:07 <SebX> Yeah, it's all about knowing what to use...
 738 2013-05-10 08:43:14 <SebX> in php echo is faster than print
 739 2013-05-10 08:43:24 <ripemd> most PHP stuff I've seen does nutty things, hitting databases when they really don't need to. most of their bad reputation comes from awful implimentations.
 740 2013-05-10 08:43:59 <SebX> Yup
 741 2013-05-10 08:44:21 <coingenuity> ripemd: agree 100%
 742 2013-05-10 08:44:40 * chmod755 hits ripemds database
 743 2013-05-10 08:44:43 <ripemd> I recently looked over a piece of PHP that base64 encoded every string before inserting into a MySQL database. it worked fine until they wanted to search for a string, in which case they selected every row, dumped it into an array, and iterated through it.
 744 2013-05-10 08:45:01 <SebX> o.O
 745 2013-05-10 08:45:05 <ripemd> all because the developer didn't know how to escape strings.
 746 2013-05-10 08:45:05 <SebX> wtf why!?
 747 2013-05-10 08:45:06 <nsh> it's perfectly possible to write excellent php. however it will slowly become awful through sheer osmotic pressure
 748 2013-05-10 08:45:35 <ripemd> SebX: people kept using characters that broke his SQL statements. the only way to fix it was to base64 encode everything.
 749 2013-05-10 08:45:42 <nsh> baha
 750 2013-05-10 08:45:51 <SebX> lol
 751 2013-05-10 08:46:05 <coingenuity> LOL
 752 2013-05-10 08:46:15 <SebX> wow
 753 2013-05-10 08:46:24 <ripemd> and this is why we have PHP bitcoin implementations using mt_rand() to generate private keys.
 754 2013-05-10 08:46:55 <SebX> I've seen some bad php code in my time but that's just appaling...
 755 2013-05-10 08:47:26 <SebX> shake it like a salt shaker?!
 756 2013-05-10 08:47:32 <coingenuity> thats really quite funny
 757 2013-05-10 08:47:52 <SebX> =)
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 775 2013-05-10 09:08:38 <ripemd> good god
 776 2013-05-10 09:09:08 <ripemd> this payment processing wordpress plugin doesn't ask for addresses to send client fees to, it instead stores your electrum seed in a variable on the server
 777 2013-05-10 09:09:19 <ripemd> what the hell are they thinking?
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 808 2013-05-10 09:28:13 <kauzu> hello
 809 2013-05-10 09:28:32 <kauzu> how was someone able to create this adress? https://blockchain.info/address/1HitLerDidNothingWrongggggghJewfv
 810 2013-05-10 09:28:59 <wallet43> wow
 811 2013-05-10 09:29:02 <wallet43> thats a sick one
 812 2013-05-10 09:29:19 <ripemd> kauzu: easily, but they don't know the private key for it
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 817 2013-05-10 09:29:50 <wallet43> why woud they send money to it if they dont know the privkey?
 818 2013-05-10 09:29:57 <kauzu> so the btc are lost ?
 819 2013-05-10 09:30:00 <ripemd> yes
 820 2013-05-10 09:30:11 <ripemd> wallet43: for fun? it's an obnoxious looking address I suppose
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 822 2013-05-10 09:30:26 <wallet43> dumping 0.001 btc for fun??
 823 2013-05-10 09:30:37 <wallet43> rich kids of blockchain
 824 2013-05-10 09:30:49 <ripemd> I'm sure you've thrown away 10c on candy before
 825 2013-05-10 09:31:04 <ripemd> heck, you've probably spent more in TX fees than that
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 828 2013-05-10 09:33:39 <ripemd>  kauzu: here's another with 0.41BTC — https://blockchain.info/address/1BitcoinEaterAddressDontSendf59kuE
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1025 2013-05-10 11:39:03 <Cryo> hmm, you have 0 friends on the btc network.
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1027 2013-05-10 11:40:09 <Cryo> ah, 2 friends like me now. that took longer than usual.
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1031 2013-05-10 11:41:29 <ali1234> how do i use the listunspent command?
1032 2013-05-10 11:41:47 <ali1234> whatever i do it just says "error parsing json"
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1048 2013-05-10 12:04:29 <michagogo> Is there any way to see an Alert if you're on a version (such as 0.8.1) it doesn't apply to?
1049 2013-05-10 12:04:43 <michagogo> I see that getinfo simply returns ""
1050 2013-05-10 12:04:45 <robbak> ali1234: What are you trying to do? The syntax is either "listunspent" or "listunspent 1J9TZS7s1JcNhtcYQQQBSaFKAkMynpurB4"
1051 2013-05-10 12:04:59 <ali1234> robbak: the latter, which does not work
1052 2013-05-10 12:05:47 <robbak> Well, that is works. Perhaps you've made a mistake typing or copying the key?
1053 2013-05-10 12:05:55 <ali1234> key?
1054 2013-05-10 12:06:15 <michagogo> address
1055 2013-05-10 12:06:20 <ali1234> no
1056 2013-05-10 12:06:38 <ali1234> "listunspent" outputs exactly the same thing as "listunspent <anyaddress>"
1057 2013-05-10 12:07:20 <ali1234> including addresses that are not mine
1058 2013-05-10 12:07:38 <jchp> listunspent's optional paramters is the number of confirmations: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Raw_Transactions#JSON-RPC_API
1059 2013-05-10 12:08:02 <ali1234> that is outdated
1060 2013-05-10 12:08:18 <ali1234> listunspent [minconf=1] [maxconf=9999999]  ["address",...]
1061 2013-05-10 12:08:19 <jchp> oh? hrm.
1062 2013-05-10 12:08:22 <ali1234> is the actual syntax
1063 2013-05-10 12:08:40 <jchp> did you try putting 0 9999999 address?
1064 2013-05-10 12:08:41 <ali1234> so when you do listunspent <address> it parses the "1" from beginning of address as the minconf
1065 2013-05-10 12:08:56 <ali1234> jchp: yes, i tried that, it gives "error parsing json"
1066 2013-05-10 12:09:17 <jchp> err 1 9999999
1067 2013-05-10 12:09:45 <ali1234> ok got it
1068 2013-05-10 12:10:00 <ali1234> bitcoind listunspent 1 9999999 '["address"]'
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1071 2013-05-10 12:11:32 <ali1234> cool, everything working. so any json array/map type parameters have to go in ''
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1095 2013-05-10 12:40:08 <Gainsbourg> I Discover
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1097 2013-05-10 12:41:20 <Gainsbourg> Non one here
1098 2013-05-10 12:41:20 <Gainsbourg> ?
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1100 2013-05-10 12:41:41 <daybyter> Hi!
1101 2013-05-10 12:42:13 <Gainsbourg> =) its a pleasur
1102 2013-05-10 12:43:02 <Gainsbourg> apparently we Hve same preoccuoation !
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1111 2013-05-10 12:57:49 <tonikt> Hi. Can anyone please give me a hint on what is the format of the signature generated by "signmessage" RPC?
1112 2013-05-10 12:58:06 <tonikt> I figured it's base64 encoded, but when I decode it, I get something like:
1113 2013-05-10 12:58:11 <tonikt> 1f989099225e64aac372f289ae40083ae6c57da8ebc6e3e248ed3fc4ca2bcfe0b7d44c8317f6e6904f972c08a17e4b771104c48f14a03d446474ac6a269c53c3c6
1114 2013-05-10 12:58:40 <tonikt> so: where is the public key, where is the S and where is the R?
1115 2013-05-10 12:58:59 <tonikt> Unless I screwed up base64 decoding?
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1117 2013-05-10 13:01:25 <jchp> tonikt: that is only the signature, it does not include the message iteslf nor the public key (it uses the public key, NOT the derived address, as you cannot verify a message with only the address)
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1120 2013-05-10 13:03:51 <tonikt> jchp: OK, then where is the signature? It's EC signature, right? So it should have R and S...
1121 2013-05-10 13:06:40 <tonikt> ... and also, why do you say that it does not include the public key, at the same time saying that it is required for the the operation, since the address\ is not enough?
1122 2013-05-10 13:07:05 <tonikt> so how do I get the public key?
1123 2013-05-10 13:07:31 <jgm> tonikt: what are you actually trying to do?  That might make it easier to help you
1124 2013-05-10 13:08:30 <jchp> tonikt: the signature is encoded in a similar format as openssl (DER encoding?)
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1126 2013-05-10 13:09:00 <alaricsp> Does it not include the PK? I note that "verifymessage" takes an address, the signature, and the message to verify. If the PK isn't in the signature, how's it find it?
1127 2013-05-10 13:09:07 <jchp> to VERIFY the message you need the public key (not the address), i preemptively noted that just in case as it's a common error
1128 2013-05-10 13:11:05 <kjj_> you really don't need the public key to verify the message
1129 2013-05-10 13:11:09 <jchp> actually i think an address might work now?
1130 2013-05-10 13:11:09 kjj_ is now known as kjj
1131 2013-05-10 13:11:19 <jchp> i forget, haven't done it in a long time
1132 2013-05-10 13:11:21 <tonikt> jgm: I am trying to write my own code that will be able to verify is a signature of "H5iQmSJeZKrDcvKJrkAIOubFfajrxuPiSO0/xMorz+C31EyDF/bmkE+XLAihfkt3EQTEjxSgPURkdKxqJpxTw8Y=" for a message "This is some test message" has been signed with this address: muTPoTTXbVWdurzw4aqTh7DLQ82RRE8hXz
1133 2013-05-10 13:12:12 <jgm> Okay well first thing the address is a hash of a public key so you need the actual public key from which the address came
1134 2013-05-10 13:12:24 <tonikt> I mean, I know it was - but just want to write a tool that would be able to verify it, without using bitcond
1135 2013-05-10 13:12:36 <tonikt> jgm: I know that
1136 2013-05-10 13:12:46 <jgm> Okay good.
1137 2013-05-10 13:12:46 <tonikt> so where do I get the public key - this I dont know?
1138 2013-05-10 13:12:49 <kjj> you do NOT need the public key.
1139 2013-05-10 13:13:53 <tonikt> OK guys, so let me have an alternative question: is it an ECDSA signature, or not?
1140 2013-05-10 13:13:53 <kjj> look in key.cpp, function CKey::SignCompact
1141 2013-05-10 13:14:01 <tonikt> ok..
1142 2013-05-10 13:17:20 <jchp> ah right deriving the pubkey from the signature?
1143 2013-05-10 13:17:54 <kjj> yes, you derive the pubkey from the signature, then convert to an address to compare to the address provided
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1145 2013-05-10 13:19:36 <kjj> and don't forget that a string is prepended to the message before singning.  strMessageMagic is in main.cpp
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1164 2013-05-10 13:47:25 <ThomasV> !seen etotheipi
1165 2013-05-10 13:47:25 <gribble> etotheipi was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 year, 47 weeks, 3 days, 11 hours, 6 minutes, and 47 seconds ago: <etotheipi> should I report it in #bitcoin instead?
1166 2013-05-10 13:47:32 <ThomasV> !seen etotheipi_
1167 2013-05-10 13:47:32 <gribble> etotheipi_ was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 day, 19 hours, 12 minutes, and 59 seconds ago: <etotheipi_> lianj, thanks!
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1171 2013-05-10 13:57:19 <tonikt> kjj: recovering this public key from the signature is basically all about what ECDSA_SIG_recover_key_GFp does, right?
1172 2013-05-10 13:57:40 <tonikt> there seems to be some really crazy math going on in there
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1175 2013-05-10 14:02:09 <gavinandresen> sipa gmaxwell jgarzik wumpus : I'll be tagging 0.8.2rc1 shortly
1176 2013-05-10 14:02:42 <sipa> gavinandresen: ACK
1177 2013-05-10 14:03:17 <helo> :D
1178 2013-05-10 14:03:48 <sipa> tonikt: http://www.secg.org/index.php?action=secg,docs_secg, read SEC1, section 4.1.6
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1183 2013-05-10 14:10:17 <gavinandresen> sipa: aka Mr. Version Number:  0.8.2rc1 version number should be 0.8.2.0 or 0.8.2.1  ??
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1185 2013-05-10 14:10:39 <tonikt> ok... thanks guys! that's exactly the hints I needed, but I obviously need some sleep, before I will re-try to figure out how to actually phrase it into my code :)
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1190 2013-05-10 14:13:06 <gavinandresen> sipa: …. looks like 0.8.0rc1 was 0.8.0.0 so I'll go with .0 .....
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1192 2013-05-10 14:15:48 <sipa> gavinandresen: sounds good; i don't think we'll need rc-specific alerts anyway
1193 2013-05-10 14:16:01 <sipa> that's the only reason for .1
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1199 2013-05-10 14:21:55 <BigBitz> wrk!~dunk@chronic.stonabox.me|Bit of a potential long shot here but has anyone used vanitygen with the E option and obtained a "protkey" ?
1200 2013-05-10 14:22:23 <BTCOxygen> BigBitz|wrk: What do you mena by E option?
1201 2013-05-10 14:22:28 <BTCOxygen> mean*
1202 2013-05-10 14:22:47 <BigBitz> wrk!~dunk@chronic.stonabox.me|if so how do I decrypt my privkey from the protkey.
1203 2013-05-10 14:23:02 <BigBitz> wrk!~dunk@chronic.stonabox.me|it's the password protect option which is why I assume I Get a protected [protkey].
1204 2013-05-10 14:23:58 t7 has joined
1205 2013-05-10 14:23:59 andyh2 has joined
1206 2013-05-10 14:24:05 Seljo has joined
1207 2013-05-10 14:24:12 <BTCOxygen> BigBitz|wrk: http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Importprivkey
1208 2013-05-10 14:24:47 Seljo has left ()
1209 2013-05-10 14:24:50 <BigBitz> wrk!~dunk@chronic.stonabox.me|Did you read anything of what I typed BTCOxygen ?
1210 2013-05-10 14:24:58 macboz has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1211 2013-05-10 14:25:07 <BigBitz> wrk!~dunk@chronic.stonabox.me|I have generated a protected key; not a private key. I need to decrypt the private key from the protected key.
1212 2013-05-10 14:26:15 <BTCOxygen> BigBitz|wrk: Oh.
1213 2013-05-10 14:26:18 <BigBitz> wrk!~dunk@chronic.stonabox.me|:)
1214 2013-05-10 14:26:35 <BTCOxygen> BigBitz|wrk: AFAIK, No wallet supports that encyption method.
1215 2013-05-10 14:26:47 macboz has joined
1216 2013-05-10 14:26:49 <BigBitz> wrk!~dunk@chronic.stonabox.me|Which is why I need to decrypt it...... :)
1217 2013-05-10 14:26:54 <BTCOxygen> You need to use another tool to decrypt your protkey.
1218 2013-05-10 14:27:08 <BigBitz> wrk!~dunk@chronic.stonabox.me|...
1219 2013-05-10 14:27:09 <BTCOxygen> I have heard of a few tools.
1220 2013-05-10 14:28:17 <BTCOxygen> BigBitz|wrk: So you have a protkey and need to convert it to a privatekey ?
1221 2013-05-10 14:28:23 <BigBitz> wrk!~dunk@chronic.stonabox.me|BTCOxygen: yes :)
1222 2013-05-10 14:28:48 <BTCOxygen> BigBitz|wrk: Are you fimiliar with Node.Js ?
1223 2013-05-10 14:28:59 <BigBitz> wrk!~dunk@chronic.stonabox.me|nope :)
1224 2013-05-10 14:29:07 tyn has joined
1225 2013-05-10 14:29:15 <BTCOxygen> :(
1226 2013-05-10 14:29:27 <BTCOxygen> BigBitz|wrk: I only know of a node.js decrypter.
1227 2013-05-10 14:29:36 <BigBitz> wrk!~dunk@chronic.stonabox.me|show me plz.
1228 2013-05-10 14:29:37 <BTCOxygen> https://gist.github.com/ianpurton/1139867
1229 2013-05-10 14:29:51 andyh2 has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
1230 2013-05-10 14:30:05 gfinn has joined
1231 2013-05-10 14:30:13 <BigBitz> wrk!~dunk@chronic.stonabox.me|I saw this link also.
1232 2013-05-10 14:30:16 <BigBitz> wrk!~dunk@chronic.stonabox.me|not so sure about that.
1233 2013-05-10 14:30:21 hazrd has joined
1234 2013-05-10 14:30:43 <BTCOxygen> why
1235 2013-05-10 14:31:41 <BigBitz> wrk!~dunk@chronic.stonabox.me|let me look at it. I'll figure it out.
1236 2013-05-10 14:31:41 <BigBitz> wrk!~dunk@chronic.stonabox.me|thx.
1237 2013-05-10 14:31:43 BigBitz has left (wrk!~dunk@chronic.stonabox.me|)
1238 2013-05-10 14:32:59 <BTCOxygen> np
1239 2013-05-10 14:33:19 shawn_fessenden has joined
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1241 2013-05-10 14:34:48 <gavinandresen>  * [new tag]         v0.8.2rc1 -> v0.8.2rc1
1242 2013-05-10 14:35:05 MobPhone has joined
1243 2013-05-10 14:38:12 Luke-Jr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1244 2013-05-10 14:39:46 <michagogo> gavinandresen: Is there a way to see the alert from this morning on a node running 0.8.1? `getinfo` returns a value for "errors" of ""
1245 2013-05-10 14:40:05 <michagogo> Or, are they somewhere on the internet?
1246 2013-05-10 14:41:04 <gavinandresen> michagogo: I'll update https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Alerts  right now...
1247 2013-05-10 14:41:19 <michagogo> Yeah, that's actually why I was asking :-P
1248 2013-05-10 14:41:27 <michagogo> (so I could update that)
1249 2013-05-10 14:42:17 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1250 2013-05-10 14:43:27 <Xexe> why is it sometimes so hard to tell to other people about bitcoin?
1251 2013-05-10 14:43:29 ll_ is now known as ll
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1255 2013-05-10 14:47:05 t7 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
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1257 2013-05-10 14:47:29 t7` is now known as t7
1258 2013-05-10 14:48:23 <helo> because there have been so many terrible hyped up investments in the past
1259 2013-05-10 14:48:52 <helo> there are always proponents of these terrible investments that stand to make money if they can convince others to invest too
1260 2013-05-10 14:49:11 <helo> so people are used to bad investments being hyped by people that stand to gain a lot
1261 2013-05-10 14:49:42 <helo> and just filter stuff that sounds similar entirely
1262 2013-05-10 14:49:52 <gavinandresen> Anybody new willing to give gitian-building the 0.8.2rc1 release a try?  I find it is pretty easy using VirtualBox (just takes time to get setup, but it isn't tricky)
1263 2013-05-10 14:50:06 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
1264 2013-05-10 14:51:01 <michagogo> gavinandresen: I could help, I guess
1265 2013-05-10 14:51:05 <michagogo> What are the prereqs?
1266 2013-05-10 14:51:17 seeingidog__ has joined
1267 2013-05-10 14:51:28 <sipa> gavinandresen: i won't be able to build until sunday evening
1268 2013-05-10 14:51:36 <gavinandresen> michagogo: VirtualBox and git
1269 2013-05-10 14:51:49 <michagogo> git in a VM, or on my local computer?
1270 2013-05-10 14:51:55 <gavinandresen> michagogo: … and a machine capable of running 64-bit VirtualBox vms
1271 2013-05-10 14:52:00 <gavinandresen> git on your local computer
1272 2013-05-10 14:52:04 <michagogo> I think I have one of those
1273 2013-05-10 14:52:31 <michagogo> What do you want me to do?
1274 2013-05-10 14:52:44 Nash has joined
1275 2013-05-10 14:52:58 <gavinandresen> michagogo: First step:  download/run VirtualBox from https://www.virtualbox.org/
1276 2013-05-10 14:53:01 <The_Fly> https://gist.github.com/devrandom/806265
1277 2013-05-10 14:53:04 <michagogo> Already have it installed
1278 2013-05-10 14:53:22 <michagogo> C:\Users\Micha>git --version
1279 2013-05-10 14:53:22 <michagogo> git version 1.8.0.msysgit.0
1280 2013-05-10 14:53:59 <gavinandresen> michagogo: Step 2:  see the end of https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/contrib/gitian-descriptors/README
1281 2013-05-10 14:54:02 saulimus has joined
1282 2013-05-10 14:54:11 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: tag is missing?
1283 2013-05-10 14:54:16 <gavinandresen> "Download the 64-bit Ubuntu Desktop 12.04 LTS .iso CD image from"
1284 2013-05-10 14:54:25 <Luke-Jr> or just not part of master somehow
1285 2013-05-10 14:54:40 Namworld has quit ()
1286 2013-05-10 14:54:55 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tags  says it is there.  did you fetch --tags ?
1287 2013-05-10 14:54:55 <michagogo> gavinandresen: Does it need to be 12.04?
1288 2013-05-10 14:55:01 <michagogo> Got a 13.04 already up and running
1289 2013-05-10 14:55:08 <The_Fly> 12.10 runs poor in vbox
1290 2013-05-10 14:55:12 <The_Fly> unity
1291 2013-05-10 14:55:17 <gavinandresen> michagogo: yes, VM base images have to match or you'll get different binaries
1292 2013-05-10 14:55:18 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: it's 2 commits ahead of master; --tags is only needed when it's not part of any branch
1293 2013-05-10 14:55:22 <michagogo> Okay
1294 2013-05-10 14:55:26 <ali1234> The_Fly: 13.04 has not fixed that
1295 2013-05-10 14:55:29 <Luke-Jr> anyhow, build started
1296 2013-05-10 14:55:30 <michagogo> I'll grab that then
1297 2013-05-10 14:55:40 <The_Fly> tag is a ref just like any branch
1298 2013-05-10 14:56:01 <michagogo> Is that Precise?
1299 2013-05-10 14:56:16 <ali1234> 12.04 is precise LTS release
1300 2013-05-10 14:56:45 Nash has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1301 2013-05-10 14:56:54 <The_Fly> and works ok
1302 2013-05-10 14:56:59 <michagogo> Is http://releases.ubuntu.com/12.04/ubuntu-12.04.2-desktop-amd64.iso.torrent the correct one?
1303 2013-05-10 14:57:17 * Luke-Jr wonders why we're updating Qt, but not to the latest bugfix release O.o
1304 2013-05-10 14:58:11 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: master branch updated/pushed...
1305 2013-05-10 14:58:53 Nash has joined
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1307 2013-05-10 15:00:11 <michagogo> The ISO should be downloaded in about 15 mins
1308 2013-05-10 15:00:42 <gavinandresen> michagogo: great.  Do not keep following the instructions in that README, let me find the USE_VBOX instructions....
1309 2013-05-10 15:00:49 <michagogo> VM created, waiting for the ISO to doenload
1310 2013-05-10 15:00:51 <michagogo> download*
1311 2013-05-10 15:01:16 Mr_G has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1312 2013-05-10 15:01:20 denisx has joined
1313 2013-05-10 15:01:35 <michagogo> gavinandresen: Once Ubuntu installs, should I also install VBox's guest additions?
1314 2013-05-10 15:01:36 <gavinandresen> michagogo: … correct VM creation instructions are at:  https://github.com/devrandom/gitian-builder
1315 2013-05-10 15:01:43 n5 has joined
1316 2013-05-10 15:01:49 <gavinandresen> michagogo: guest additions aren't necessary
1317 2013-05-10 15:02:17 <michagogo> They make the VM work better, though -- shared clipboard and display scaling, most notably
1318 2013-05-10 15:02:26 Mr_G has joined
1319 2013-05-10 15:02:37 <gavinandresen> michagogo: won't hurt if you want to install them
1320 2013-05-10 15:02:40 <michagogo> k
1321 2013-05-10 15:02:53 <michagogo> Am I using KVM or LXC?
1322 2013-05-10 15:02:58 <michagogo> (no idea what those are)
1323 2013-05-10 15:03:18 <gavinandresen> michagogo: You should end up with two VMs, which MUST be named "Gitian-lucid-i386" and "Gitian-lucid-amd64"
1324 2013-05-10 15:03:24 <michagogo> Oh
1325 2013-05-10 15:03:34 <michagogo> Okay, I'll get rid of the VM I already made then :-P
1326 2013-05-10 15:04:30 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: gitian only works on Ubuntu and Gentoo hosts right now (AFAIK)
1327 2013-05-10 15:04:37 <michagogo> Hosts?
1328 2013-05-10 15:04:44 <Luke-Jr> yes,
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1330 2013-05-10 15:04:52 talengix has joined
1331 2013-05-10 15:05:08 <michagogo> If that's the case I can't help :-(
1332 2013-05-10 15:05:11 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: ???
1333 2013-05-10 15:05:24 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: am I missing something?
1334 2013-05-10 15:05:25 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: Last couple of releases I've gitian-built using VirtualBox on OSX host
1335 2013-05-10 15:05:49 <Luke-Jr> oh :o
1336 2013-05-10 15:05:51 <michagogo> I'm running Windows 7...
1337 2013-05-10 15:06:07 <gavinandresen> michagogo: should work
1338 2013-05-10 15:06:10 n5 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1339 2013-05-10 15:06:17 eklass has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1340 2013-05-10 15:06:21 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: is that process documented somewhere?
1341 2013-05-10 15:06:55 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: https://github.com/devrandom/gitian-builder  has the VM setup instructions
1342 2013-05-10 15:07:14 <gavinandresen> michagogo: mmm… windows… do you have command-line ssh?
1343 2013-05-10 15:07:32 <michagogo> I have PuTTY
1344 2013-05-10 15:07:44 <michagogo> And I think that comes with a command-line client
1345 2013-05-10 15:07:59 <helo> it would be nice if there was a lazy gitian build process that only required a chroot
1346 2013-05-10 15:08:04 <gavinandresen> michagogo: hmm.  Not sure if it will work, gitian-builder uses ruby and command-line ssh (and probably other unixy command-line tools)
1347 2013-05-10 15:08:14 <helo> shouldn't that be enough to get deterministic builds?
1348 2013-05-10 15:08:33 <gavinandresen> helo: "patches welcome"
1349 2013-05-10 15:08:39 <Luke-Jr> helo: but then you'd defeat the point of it, by trusting someone else's setup..
1350 2013-05-10 15:08:41 <helo> :D
1351 2013-05-10 15:08:42 <sipa> gavinandresen: you need a ubuntu host for gitian, afaik
1352 2013-05-10 15:09:20 <gavinandresen> sipa: Last couple of releases I've gitian-built using VirtualBox on OSX host
1353 2013-05-10 15:09:21 <helo> Luke-Jr: isn't gitian trusting someone else's setup?
1354 2013-05-10 15:09:21 <Luke-Jr> sipa: we just went over that >_<
1355 2013-05-10 15:09:31 <Luke-Jr> helo: no, that's the point
1356 2013-05-10 15:10:09 <sipa> oh, ok
1357 2013-05-10 15:10:13 <kinlo> oh you can run gitian on mac now?
1358 2013-05-10 15:10:15 <kinlo> even better :)
1359 2013-05-10 15:10:19 <michagogo> gavinandresen: If it helps, I have cygwin
1360 2013-05-10 15:10:35 <kinlo> now if only we can make mac builds with gitian, then the circle would be round
1361 2013-05-10 15:11:00 <michagogo> And in Cygwin I have both ruby and ssh
1362 2013-05-10 15:11:05 <gavinandresen> michagogo: might could work… but you'll be a trailblazer, and could spend a lot of time getting it to almost work and then failing....
1363 2013-05-10 15:11:12 <sipa> gavinandresen: wait... you don't happen to mean VirtualBox on OSX with Ubuntu running inside, and gitian running inside that, as a second-level VM?
1364 2013-05-10 15:11:22 <gavinandresen> sipa: Nope
1365 2013-05-10 15:11:28 <sipa> wow!
1366 2013-05-10 15:11:34 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: for a brief part of 0.6.x, I had Mac gitian builds :P
1367 2013-05-10 15:11:52 <kinlo> Luke-Jr: oh, do you still have them?
1368 2013-05-10 15:11:54 <michagogo> I have an Ubuntu VM, but I suspect I don't have the resources for VMception
1369 2013-05-10 15:11:54 safra has joined
1370 2013-05-10 15:12:01 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: the compiler is too old for the current code
1371 2013-05-10 15:12:15 <kinlo> Luke-Jr: still, would love to have a look
1372 2013-05-10 15:12:37 <kinlo> it would help the project if we can fix that :)
1373 2013-05-10 15:13:34 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: https://gitorious.org/cross-osx/cross-osx/trees/master/gitian
1374 2013-05-10 15:13:46 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: probably easier to start over, considering OS X changed compiler suite entirely
1375 2013-05-10 15:14:00 <michagogo> gavinandresen: How much time is "a lot"?
1376 2013-05-10 15:14:28 <gavinandresen> I sent an Apple Developer support request asking for advice on repeatable builds a couple days ago… they're still thinking about it, I guess....
1377 2013-05-10 15:14:32 <helo> gitian has to trust something... is the trust in a gitian downloader much different than trust in a signed chroot tarball?
1378 2013-05-10 15:15:01 <Luke-Jr> helo: gitian downloader just verifies signatures; not the same thing as gitian
1379 2013-05-10 15:15:20 <Luke-Jr> helo: gitian itself compiles the source code to a binary with the same SHA256 hash every time
1380 2013-05-10 15:15:32 <gavinandresen> michagogo: could pretty easily chew up ten or twenty hours of your time trying to get all the pieces working on Windows
1381 2013-05-10 15:15:41 <Luke-Jr> helo: so you and everyone else can verify the released binaries match the code
1382 2013-05-10 15:15:46 <kinlo> Luke-Jr: mmmz :)
1383 2013-05-10 15:15:53 <michagogo> Hmm
1384 2013-05-10 15:16:04 <gavinandresen> pushed linux and windows gitian.sigs
1385 2013-05-10 15:16:24 <helo> i need to use gitian before i talk about it :)
1386 2013-05-10 15:16:37 <michagogo> gavinandresen: Okay, I guess I can't help you out with this :-/
1387 2013-05-10 15:16:38 <michagogo> Sorry!
1388 2013-05-10 15:17:19 <gavinandresen> michagogo: no problem, you helped already
1389 2013-05-10 15:17:23 <kinlo> oh, rc1 is released?
1390 2013-05-10 15:17:31 <michagogo> I did? o_O
1391 2013-05-10 15:17:32 <gavinandresen> kinlo: tagged, not released yet
1392 2013-05-10 15:17:44 <kinlo> gavinandresen: and you want gitian sigs? :)
1393 2013-05-10 15:17:58 <gavinandresen> michagogo: yes, you made me realize I need to update our docs
1394 2013-05-10 15:18:14 <michagogo> Ah. :-)
1395 2013-05-10 15:19:04 tyn has joined
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1408 2013-05-10 15:32:18 Michail1_ is now known as Michail1
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1410 2013-05-10 15:34:12 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: my win32 matches
1411 2013-05-10 15:34:34 Darin_ has joined
1412 2013-05-10 15:34:49 <gavinandresen> Luke-Jr: fantastic, thanks!
1413 2013-05-10 15:35:16 <Luke-Jr> should have linux in a few minutes
1414 2013-05-10 15:38:53 quaz1 is now known as quaz0r
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1418 2013-05-10 15:41:48 <Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: linux match, pushed
1419 2013-05-10 15:42:21 <gavinandresen> Cool.  OSX and Windows binaries signed, 0.8.2rc1 uploaded to https://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.2/test/
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1431 2013-05-10 15:47:01 <michagogo> Interesting, 0.8.2 removes IRC bootstrapping entirely?
1432 2013-05-10 15:47:05 whiterabbit is now known as wrabbit
1433 2013-05-10 15:47:09 Belxjander has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1434 2013-05-10 15:47:15 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: the IRC server is dead
1435 2013-05-10 15:47:53 qwertyoruiop has joined
1436 2013-05-10 15:47:54 <michagogo> I see.
1437 2013-05-10 15:47:59 * michagogo upgrades
1438 2013-05-10 15:48:00 hazrd has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1439 2013-05-10 15:48:00 Belxjander has joined
1440 2013-05-10 15:48:18 <Luke-Jr> ali1234: ping
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1442 2013-05-10 15:49:27 <michagogo> Is that Alert hard-coded into the client?
1443 2013-05-10 15:49:49 <michagogo> Or do you just broadcast an alert only applicable to prereleases?
1444 2013-05-10 15:50:44 <gavinandresen> uh, we broadcast version-specific alerts when there is an issue that affects that/those versions....
1445 2013-05-10 15:51:28 <michagogo> gavinandresen: I mean, is the Alert that's in 0.8.2rc1 an actual Alert, or is it hardcoded in?
1446 2013-05-10 15:51:45 kicek has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1447 2013-05-10 15:51:50 <gavinandresen> there is no alert in 0.8.2rc1
1448 2013-05-10 15:51:50 <Luke-Jr> pretty sure that's a hardcoded one you're seeing
1449 2013-05-10 15:51:57 <michagogo> gavinandresen: "errors" : "This is a pre-release test build - use at your own risk - do not use for mining or merchant applications"
1450 2013-05-10 15:52:04 <Luke-Jr> yep
1451 2013-05-10 15:52:08 <gavinandresen> Oh, THAT message.
1452 2013-05-10 15:52:21 * gavinandresen reminds himself to twiddle that bit before final release....
1453 2013-05-10 15:52:25 <michagogo> Yeah, that was what I thought
1454 2013-05-10 15:52:28 <michagogo> LOL, yeah
1455 2013-05-10 15:52:28 <gavinandresen> yes, that's hard-coded
1456 2013-05-10 15:52:44 <michagogo> That's not something you want to release with :-P
1457 2013-05-10 15:53:42 michagogo has quit (Quit: Bbl, שבת שלום)
1458 2013-05-10 15:53:45 <Luke-Jr> kinda scary how we just don't notice it anymore, since probably all the devs see it on a regular basis x.x
1459 2013-05-10 15:53:51 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
1460 2013-05-10 15:54:31 <gavinandresen> Mmm.  We need a QA team.
1461 2013-05-10 15:55:06 * Luke-Jr makes a bet on the QA team getting used to the message too :p
1462 2013-05-10 15:56:04 <gavinandresen> yeah, they'll forget once and then add it to their release-process checklist...
1463 2013-05-10 15:56:46 <hazrd_> anyone know of a BlockChain -> RRD interface/API ?
1464 2013-05-10 15:57:09 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1465 2013-05-10 15:58:23 altamic has quit (Quit: altamic)
1466 2013-05-10 16:01:14 <The_Fly> lol
1467 2013-05-10 16:04:56 bibbybob has joined
1468 2013-05-10 16:07:16 <denisx> is there a way to see the spent coins. like listunspent but only for spent?
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1471 2013-05-10 16:07:46 <WKNiGHT> [10:31] <gavinandresen> Mmm.  We need a QA team.
1472 2013-05-10 16:07:53 <WKNiGHT> best statement ever :)
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1482 2013-05-10 16:14:02 <ali1234> Luke-Jr: pong?
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1518 2013-05-10 16:23:05 <jaromil> maybe you need a Q&A team so that you can form the QA team (bloody sarcasm)
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1538 2013-05-10 16:59:46 thisisengland86 has joined
1539 2013-05-10 16:59:47 <thisisengland86> WANT TO SELL 3 BTC PM ME
1540 2013-05-10 16:59:55 dansmith_btc has joined
1541 2013-05-10 17:00:46 rdymac has joined
1542 2013-05-10 17:01:23 <thisisengland86> WANT TO SELL 3 BTC PM ME
1543 2013-05-10 17:01:30 <sipa> thisisengland86: take it elsewhere
1544 2013-05-10 17:01:42 <Michail1> He can't.
1545 2013-05-10 17:01:57 BlackPrapor has joined
1546 2013-05-10 17:02:00 <Michail1> Been banned from other chans.
1547 2013-05-10 17:02:06 viperhr1 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1548 2013-05-10 17:02:39 <rdymac> Lol
1549 2013-05-10 17:03:02 tyn has joined
1550 2013-05-10 17:03:34 <sipa> i'm sure nobody in #thisisengland86spamchan will care
1551 2013-05-10 17:03:53 <BlueMatt> whats current testnet height?
1552 2013-05-10 17:04:04 <BlueMatt> or is there a ,,bc,tnblocks
1553 2013-05-10 17:04:04 <gribble> Error: "bc,tnblocks" is not a valid command.
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1555 2013-05-10 17:05:07 <jgm> BlueMatt: 72057
1556 2013-05-10 17:05:21 * sipa updated bitcoin.sipa.be to 0.8.2rc1
1557 2013-05-10 17:05:41 <BlueMatt> thanks
1558 2013-05-10 17:05:44 <dansmith_btc> Hello, how can one access the UTXO set in bitcoind? I need to check if a certain output has been spent.
1559 2013-05-10 17:05:56 <sipa> dansmith_btc: gettxout <txid> <index>
1560 2013-05-10 17:05:58 <Michail1> sipa - agreed.  :)
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1563 2013-05-10 17:11:45 <dansmith_btc> sipa, but how can I decode gettxout's output?
1564 2013-05-10 17:12:16 <sipa> dansmith_btc: it decodes it for you
1565 2013-05-10 17:13:37 <sipa> if there is no output, it has been spent
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1573 2013-05-10 17:20:37 <BlueMatt> anyone have a alert history with all alerts in it?
1574 2013-05-10 17:20:42 <BlueMatt> or atleast recent ones
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1585 2013-05-10 17:32:41 <The_Fly> is there not one on the wiki
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1587 2013-05-10 17:32:57 <The_Fly> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Alerts
1588 2013-05-10 17:32:58 <The_Fly> ?
1589 2013-05-10 17:34:40 <BlueMatt> hmm..I was hoping for testnet alerts
1590 2013-05-10 17:34:54 <The_Fly> oh right
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1665 2013-05-10 18:38:23 <aceat64> are there any admins for the Bitcoin Wiki online?
1666 2013-05-10 18:38:53 Hasimir- has joined
1667 2013-05-10 18:39:00 <aceat64> the plugin used for creating maps (such as for https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Real_world_shops) needs to have references to http://maps.google.com changed to use HTTPS
1668 2013-05-10 18:39:21 Guest99239 is now known as |Clown|
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1671 2013-05-10 18:39:23 <aceat64> it appears that content should be available via HTTPS from google, so this should be a fairly easy change
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1681 2013-05-10 18:42:47 <aceat64> MagicalTux, nanotube: you guys are listed as admins for the wiki, just saying your names in case you missed my request
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1691 2013-05-10 18:49:16 <iwilcox> ;;seen nakowa
1692 2013-05-10 18:49:17 <gribble> I have not seen nakowa.
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1697 2013-05-10 19:01:31 QuantumQrack has joined
1698 2013-05-10 19:01:45 <QuantumQrack> Anybody know the best way to upgrade bitcoin-qt?  The best procedure?  Just download the .exe and run it?
1699 2013-05-10 19:01:46 highPriestLOL is now known as zz_highPriestLOL
1700 2013-05-10 19:02:27 <helo> QuantumQrack: if you want to be excessively careful, back up your wallet.dat first
1701 2013-05-10 19:02:55 <helo> but you should already have a good backup, so that may not be necessary
1702 2013-05-10 19:03:01 <QuantumQrack> Yeah, I do that automatically every morning.
1703 2013-05-10 19:03:17 <QuantumQrack> ok, thanks.
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1720 2013-05-10 19:34:52 <helo> QuantumQrack: btw, i don't think you get any benefit to backing up more frequently than every 100 transactions + addresses
1721 2013-05-10 19:35:16 <helo> hopefully you are doing cascading backups, and not just overwriting the previous backup every morning
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1727 2013-05-10 19:36:58 * helo senses an upcoming -backupnotify=<cmd> option
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1732 2013-05-10 19:42:34 highPriestLOL is now known as zz_highPriestLOL
1733 2013-05-10 19:42:50 <ngc0202> * -walletnotify will call a command on receiving transactions that affect the wallet.
1734 2013-05-10 19:43:02 zz_highPriestLOL is now known as highPriestLOL
1735 2013-05-10 19:43:10 <ngc0202> If I had more than a few cents in bitcoins, I'd pay whoever came up with that
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1743 2013-05-10 19:48:18 <QuantumQrack> helo, its overwriting the previous backup.
1744 2013-05-10 19:48:44 <helo> QuantumQrack: so if your wallet was corrupted overnight, in the morning it will overwrite the previous good backup with the corrupted one?
1745 2013-05-10 19:49:08 <QuantumQrack> yeah, I guess so.
1746 2013-05-10 19:49:26 <QuantumQrack> Not sure how to set up cascading backups, I will have to check into it.
1747 2013-05-10 19:49:31 <cjd> this wouldn't have happened if you used ZFS
1748 2013-05-10 19:49:40 <helo> heh
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1751 2013-05-10 19:50:14 <QuantumQrack> I use SpiderOak to back up into cloud storage.
1752 2013-05-10 19:52:00 <helo> QuantumQrack: a simple way to do cascading backups is to label your backups according to the day of week (for weekly cascading), day of month (for monthly cascading), etc
1753 2013-05-10 19:52:29 <helo> but backing up more frequently than every 100 transactions + addresses is entirely a waste of time
1754 2013-05-10 19:53:12 <QuantumQrack> Can you explain that a bit more please?
1755 2013-05-10 19:53:21 <helo> the 100 rule?
1756 2013-05-10 19:53:24 <QuantumQrack> yeah
1757 2013-05-10 19:53:25 <gonffen> does anybody know what this error means?
1758 2013-05-10 19:53:28 <gonffen> RCC: Error in 'src/qt/bitcoin.qrc': Cannot find file 'locale/bitcoin_bg.qm'
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1763 2013-05-10 19:56:01 <helo> QuantumQrack: a bitcoind/bitcoin-qt wallet has 100 private keys sitting in a queue that haven't been used yet. every time you request a new address or make a transaction, it pulls the front private key from the queue, and generates and appends a new one to the back
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1765 2013-05-10 19:56:47 <helo> QuantumQrack: so if you have a backup that was made 100 transactions + addresses ago, it will still contain all of the private keys that could have received funds
1766 2013-05-10 19:57:24 <QuantumQrack> Something I learned today. :-)
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1779 2013-05-10 20:06:38 <QuantumQrack> helo, ahh, nevermind.  I guess spideroak automatically does cascading backups.  Good deal.
1780 2013-05-10 20:07:04 <helo> yay :)
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1789 2013-05-10 20:17:13 <MC1984_> ahh an 8.2 rc has been spun
1790 2013-05-10 20:17:38 <MC1984_> seems like a worthwhile release
1791 2013-05-10 20:18:21 <MC1984_> looks like it should be out for may 15th after all well done
1792 2013-05-10 20:18:33 <MC1984_> lets see if these memory optimisations are good
1793 2013-05-10 20:18:45 <BlueMatt> they are verrry good
1794 2013-05-10 20:19:31 <MC1984_> hopefully i can take my connction cap off
1795 2013-05-10 20:20:14 <jouke> where can I find information about 0.7.3?
1796 2013-05-10 20:20:48 <MC1984_> ther was no such release?
1797 2013-05-10 20:21:27 <jouke> Hmmm.
1798 2013-05-10 20:22:07 <jouke> Oh, they are release candidates.
1799 2013-05-10 20:22:18 <picopinth> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/test/ <- old backports
1800 2013-05-10 20:22:34 <picopinth> well, backports to old releases. the backports are not old.
1801 2013-05-10 20:22:43 <jouke> I got it :)
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1807 2013-05-10 20:33:15 * BlueMatt notes that the pre-git code releases were never uploaded anywhere public that I can find...that should be done someting
1808 2013-05-10 20:34:20 zoinky has quit (Ping timeout: 257 seconds)
1809 2013-05-10 20:34:24 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
1810 2013-05-10 20:35:45 * BlueMatt 's earliest source is an 0.2.0 that is lying around
1811 2013-05-10 20:37:18 rbd_ has quit ()
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1813 2013-05-10 20:38:51 <MC1984_> using at most 125 connections
1814 2013-05-10 20:38:55 <MC1984_> hmm why is that
1815 2013-05-10 20:39:20 zoinky has joined
1816 2013-05-10 20:39:36 <MC1984_> 2048 file descriptors........?
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1827 2013-05-10 20:49:59 <MC1984_> The changelog mentions a fix for stalling on IBD, how was that done?
1828 2013-05-10 20:50:16 <MC1984_> does it cycle peers now or something?
1829 2013-05-10 20:53:32 safra has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1830 2013-05-10 20:55:36 <gmaxwell> it's only a small fix for the many ways it can fail.
1831 2013-05-10 20:55:37 ali1234 has left ()
1832 2013-05-10 20:55:43 <gmaxwell> er one of the many ways
1833 2013-05-10 20:56:00 <gmaxwell> it just makes sure that at all times it has an active peer that its designated for that purpose.
1834 2013-05-10 20:57:39 <sipa> specifically, if the peer your downloading from disconnects, it will continue from another one
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1839 2013-05-10 20:59:11 <gmaxwell> previously it would just be a sad panda and wait for another block.
1840 2013-05-10 20:59:38 <sipa> oh, and after a reindex finishes, it automatically starts a network sync
1841 2013-05-10 20:59:46 <gmaxwell> "my IBD buddy went away and now I don't know what to do. I guess I'll sit here and do nothing. :("
1842 2013-05-10 20:59:48 <sipa> indeed, instead of sad blockless banda
1843 2013-05-10 21:00:16 <gmaxwell> of course, if the buddy is just braindamaged and not responding, it'll still be stupid.
1844 2013-05-10 21:00:30 <MC1984_> what if the active peer is actually stalled
1845 2013-05-10 21:00:39 <MC1984_> oh
1846 2013-05-10 21:00:43 <sipa> BlueMatt: i've seen 0.1.5 and 0.1.3 iirc, posted by someone on the forum
1847 2013-05-10 21:00:59 richcollins has joined
1848 2013-05-10 21:01:01 Nash has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1849 2013-05-10 21:01:05 ali1234 has joined
1850 2013-05-10 21:01:08 <sipa> MC1984_: after a minute of no activity, peers are disconnected
1851 2013-05-10 21:01:26 <sipa> BlueMatt: and ACK on putting them on github
1852 2013-05-10 21:01:38 a5m0 has joined
1853 2013-05-10 21:01:42 <sipa> as reverse diffs, i guess
1854 2013-05-10 21:01:49 <MC1984_> well, its a start
1855 2013-05-10 21:01:57 PhantomSpark has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1856 2013-05-10 21:02:01 <MC1984_> should rduce the major cases of bitcoin sitting with its thumb up its arse
1857 2013-05-10 21:02:39 resinate has joined
1858 2013-05-10 21:03:09 <BlueMatt> sipa: yea, Im sure others exist, but they should be collected and put up on sf or github or whatever
1859 2013-05-10 21:03:52 <MC1984_> things such as that which lead to timmy firstimer saying "screw it, ill just open a bitcoin account on this website instead
1860 2013-05-10 21:04:23 AlbertTuring has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
1861 2013-05-10 21:04:52 tholenst has joined
1862 2013-05-10 21:05:07 <MC1984_> log2_work, thats new
1863 2013-05-10 21:06:07 xire has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1864 2013-05-10 21:06:09 <MC1984_> how am i meant to read that
1865 2013-05-10 21:06:41 <BlueMatt> its the log base 2 of the total work
1866 2013-05-10 21:06:43 <BlueMatt> iirc
1867 2013-05-10 21:06:51 <sipa> if it is 70, the total expected number of hashes to construct the chain is 2^70
1868 2013-05-10 21:07:04 <sipa> how much is it now btw?
1869 2013-05-10 21:07:19 <MC1984_> 69.9 but im a week behind
1870 2013-05-10 21:08:37 <MC1984_> most of these recent blocks are taking >15s to verify, damn
1871 2013-05-10 21:08:44 <helo> log2_work=69.99557
1872 2013-05-10 21:09:49 <sipa> helo: and the previous block?
1873 2013-05-10 21:10:49 denisx has joined
1874 2013-05-10 21:11:11 <helo> height=235529  log2_work=69.995517
1875 2013-05-10 21:12:14 <gonffen> do transactions on testnet propogate poorly? i.e. I'm running 0.8.1 and head but only 0.8.1 sees the transaction
1876 2013-05-10 21:12:54 <MC1984_> the sipaspeed stuff isnt in yet right
1877 2013-05-10 21:13:01 <sipa> no
1878 2013-05-10 21:13:06 <helo> i've never seen a testnet tx take unusually long
1879 2013-05-10 21:13:18 <MC1984_> is it a speedup for all architectures or just multicore stuff
1880 2013-05-10 21:14:14 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1881 2013-05-10 21:14:17 <gonffen> I requested some funds from the faucet, it took forever so I thought it was broken, but it eventually showed up on the one node...
1882 2013-05-10 21:14:37 <helo> the faucet i think doesn't send transactions out immediately
1883 2013-05-10 21:14:54 <sipa> MC1984_: everything, though the benefit is largest on 64-bit systems
1884 2013-05-10 21:15:07 <helo> the old faucet at least would queue up a bunch of requests, and pay them all in one tx
1885 2013-05-10 21:15:07 <gonffen> that was what I figured when it went through... but...
1886 2013-05-10 21:15:14 <MC1984_> ok, look forward to that
1887 2013-05-10 21:15:34 brson has joined
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1889 2013-05-10 21:15:34 <MC1984_> 13ms/txin here :/
1890 2013-05-10 21:15:59 <MC1984_> and were not even on half megabyte blocks yet
1891 2013-05-10 21:16:23 <sipa> MC1984_: on my own system: openssl uses 1200us on 32-bit and 600us on 64-bit for a verification; my lib does it in 100us on 64-bit and 400us on 32-bit
1892 2013-05-10 21:16:46 <sipa> some assembly field implementation could probably speed things up on 32-bit still
1893 2013-05-10 21:16:58 picopinth has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1894 2013-05-10 21:17:09 jgarzik has joined
1895 2013-05-10 21:17:19 <MC1984_> so 64bit is about twice as fast as 32
1896 2013-05-10 21:17:22 Vinnie_win has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1897 2013-05-10 21:17:47 <MC1984_> of course the real solution to my problem is "upgrade my damn stuff"
1898 2013-05-10 21:18:56 <jgarzik> My, what big windows you have.
1899 2013-05-10 21:18:58 whiterabbit has joined
1900 2013-05-10 21:19:11 <gmaxwell> MC1984_: for openssl, for sipa's code, 4x faster.
1901 2013-05-10 21:19:12 * jgarzik looks at the xchat window from his new laptop
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1903 2013-05-10 21:20:11 <MC1984_> yes you are right gmaxwell
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1907 2013-05-10 21:22:09 <MC1984_> is there a sipaspeed windows build anywhere? i used to have his builds page bookmarked but apparently not any more
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1909 2013-05-10 21:23:20 <sipa> no, it would mean getting yasm/gmp in gitian
1910 2013-05-10 21:23:29 <denisx> sipa: what did you speed up of openSSL?
1911 2013-05-10 21:23:40 <sipa> denisx: signature verification
1912 2013-05-10 21:23:46 highPriestLOL is now known as zz_highPriestLOL
1913 2013-05-10 21:23:51 <sipa> well, everything EC really
1914 2013-05-10 21:24:03 whiterabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1915 2013-05-10 21:24:06 <MC1984_> ok
1916 2013-05-10 21:24:16 <denisx> sipa: you also know why openssl is so slow?
1917 2013-05-10 21:24:37 <sipa> denisx: because it doean't have secp256k1-specific optimizations
1918 2013-05-10 21:24:48 trang_ has quit (Quit: trang_)
1919 2013-05-10 21:25:08 <sipa> (though i never expected getting a 6x speedup out of that)
1920 2013-05-10 21:25:38 <denisx> sipa: sounds nice
1921 2013-05-10 21:26:34 <MC1984_> theres no way crypto accelerations of recent cpus can be leveraged i assume
1922 2013-05-10 21:26:44 <MC1984_> theyre equivalnt to asics for AES?
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1924 2013-05-10 21:27:09 <sipa> aes is fast enough
1925 2013-05-10 21:27:27 <sipa> modern cpus have specific instructions for it even
1926 2013-05-10 21:27:36 <denisx> aes-ni
1927 2013-05-10 21:27:51 <jgarzik> yep
1928 2013-05-10 21:27:57 <sipa> indeed
1929 2013-05-10 21:29:16 <richcollins> Are peers likely to forward 1 satoshi txs?   Want to do some testing without risking many BTC
1930 2013-05-10 21:29:23 <MC1984_> i mean it wouldnt work for bitcoin because the logic is aes specific
1931 2013-05-10 21:30:01 <MC1984_> richcollins not for much longer afaik
1932 2013-05-10 21:30:29 <richcollins> MC1984_: I thought the "dust" changes related to sending TXs from bitcoin-qt
1933 2013-05-10 21:30:31 luke-jr__ is now known as Luke-Jr
1934 2013-05-10 21:30:37 <richcollins> not peers forwarding them
1935 2013-05-10 21:30:48 <richcollins> don't need them to go into a block (for now) just forward
1936 2013-05-10 21:31:05 <MC1984_> im sure peers wont relay them either as of .8.2
1937 2013-05-10 21:31:09 <richcollins> ah
1938 2013-05-10 21:31:13 <richcollins> didn't realize that
1939 2013-05-10 21:31:30 <MC1984_> the thing causing a minor shitstorm on the forums
1940 2013-05-10 21:32:04 <MC1984_> speaking of which how is dice reacting to it
1941 2013-05-10 21:32:07 <richcollins> yeah I thought the change just prevented bitcoin-qt from sending them
1942 2013-05-10 21:32:27 <richcollins> I don't want to be a bad peer either but want to load test something that I'm building
1943 2013-05-10 21:32:36 <richcollins> without spending too much BTC
1944 2013-05-10 21:32:40 <MC1984_> why not do it on testnet
1945 2013-05-10 21:33:00 <richcollins> Is it a different protocol?
1946 2013-05-10 21:33:17 <MC1984_> no, its just a parallel network
1947 2013-05-10 21:33:24 ielo has joined
1948 2013-05-10 21:33:31 <fronti> no, testnet is parallel and for testing new things :)
1949 2013-05-10 21:34:05 <MC1984_> if your thing relies on sending satoshis, youre here at jsut about the wrong time
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1963 2013-05-10 21:43:05 <jspilman> SD probably doesnt' care what the minimum is.  If they send you back 1 Satoshi or 10,000 Satoshi, I assume they just subtract the amount they must send back from your 'bet' before calculating your winnings. Their minimum bet is already 1,000,000 Satoshi (0.01BTC). Maybe they didn't bother to subtract '1' from 1,000,000, but certainly they can do that, and keep on sending their 'bet lost'
1964 2013-05-10 21:43:05 <jspilman> transactions no matter what the minimum limit is.  At least this way, the outputs you get back eventually add up to something worth spending, so the goal of curbing UTXO growth is accomplished, if not overall blockchain growth.
1965 2013-05-10 21:43:40 rushed has quit (Quit: rushed)
1966 2013-05-10 21:43:55 <gonffen> I saw something about them moving offchain
1967 2013-05-10 21:44:12 <MC1984_> they cant move offchain
1968 2013-05-10 21:44:16 Someguy123 has joined
1969 2013-05-10 21:44:26 <jspilman> Overall 0.8.2 is good for SD, because it actually reduces TX fees by 5x.
1970 2013-05-10 21:44:31 <MC1984_> their whole gimmick was auditable odds via the chain
1971 2013-05-10 21:45:05 tyn has joined
1972 2013-05-10 21:45:14 <jspilman> I don't see any reason they should 'eat' the 10,000 or 5,000 minimum. If it's money you are guaranteed to get back, then it shouldn't be calculated as part of the bet.
1973 2013-05-10 21:45:52 <jspilman> s/minimum/loss indicator
1974 2013-05-10 21:46:15 <sipa> i don't see why they need to send a loss indicator at all
1975 2013-05-10 21:46:23 <BlueMatt> its not hard to have auditable odds if you just dont respond instead of sending back crap...
1976 2013-05-10 21:46:24 <jspilman> well, convince them of that! ;-)
1977 2013-05-10 21:48:18 <MC1984_> they dont give a toss any way, they dont pay fees thier punters do
1978 2013-05-10 21:48:59 ThomasV has joined
1979 2013-05-10 21:49:36 <jspilman> you're absolutely right, you can still audit all your losses when they release the hash keys (or whatever). their 'claim' is it proves they saw the TX and processed it, so it's immediately apparent to the gambler that they lost.
1980 2013-05-10 21:50:27 <jspilman> without them knowing all your sending addresses, or depositing a balance in a known account, I'm not sure how you get the same reliable 'loss indicator'
1981 2013-05-10 21:53:11 xire has joined
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1983 2013-05-10 21:53:56 chorao has quit (Changing host)
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1985 2013-05-10 21:54:34 <jspilman> I guess you just broadcast all the losses on a side channel, and the wallet would have to listen. so if bitcoind had a way to connect to a user specified websocket and filter messages client side by txin { hash/outnum }, maybe SD would stop spamming!
1986 2013-05-10 21:54:35 <helo> instead of them broadcasting a tx, they send a notification to the user's browser via ~ajax
1987 2013-05-10 21:55:03 <jspilman> helo: the browser would still have to know which addresses are yours, which you don't want to disclose
1988 2013-05-10 21:55:40 <sipa> jspilman: payment protocol!
1989 2013-05-10 21:56:15 <jspilman> same privacy concern
1990 2013-05-10 21:56:29 <jspilman> ?
1991 2013-05-10 21:56:46 <sipa> which?
1992 2013-05-10 21:57:18 <helo> satoshidice already ~knows sending addresses... not following
1993 2013-05-10 21:57:24 <gmaxwell> jspilman: dude, they won't even switch to using compressed keys. There is zero interest from that side in behaving rationally even if its in their own direct interest.
1994 2013-05-10 21:57:35 <jspilman> it knows sending address, but not { addr1, addr2, addrN } -> user
1995 2013-05-10 21:58:24 <jspilman> @gmaxwell: I am definitely NOT defending their position! just thinking it through
1996 2013-05-10 21:58:27 <helo> i think gamblers just want to gamble, they probably don't care too much
1997 2013-05-10 21:59:12 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1998 2013-05-10 21:59:59 <jspilman> conclusion I came to is that I *think* 0.8.2 makes it better for them, not worse, but also better for UTXO, and perhaps slightly worse overall for blockchain growth due to lower tx fee
1999 2013-05-10 22:01:41 denisx_ has joined
2000 2013-05-10 22:02:53 <gmaxwell> jspilman: huh? I didn't intend to suggest you were defending anything. I'm just pointing out that if you're reasoning from rational behavior you're doing it wrong.
2001 2013-05-10 22:03:10 denisx has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2002 2013-05-10 22:03:10 denisx_ is now known as denisx
2003 2013-05-10 22:03:16 <jspilman> @sipa: I think the privacy concern would be mapping set of payment inputs -> wallet based on IP. I guess you could use PP over Tor and then in theory they couldn't figure out your wallet balance over time.
2004 2013-05-10 22:04:32 highPriestLOL is now known as zz_highPriestLOL
2005 2013-05-10 22:08:54 Guest32725 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2006 2013-05-10 22:09:36 <jspilman> @gmaxwell: agreed they are not rational, guessing at their motivation is probably a waste of time. I do think people "awaiting SD response!" will be disappoint. Seems to me that 0.8.2 makes them more profitable not less. Again, assuming a profit motive
2007 2013-05-10 22:10:01 <tumak> i'd guess lazy, rather than irrational
2008 2013-05-10 22:10:32 <tumak> i mean, few weeks ago satoshidice.com stopped working because domain haven't been paid
2009 2013-05-10 22:10:49 <jspilman> yeah, that was pretty indicative
2010 2013-05-10 22:10:56 <gmaxwell> jspilman: what people are you talking about?
2011 2013-05-10 22:11:13 <gmaxwell> SD already responded to this change, mostly yelling at people on the forums for being assholes about it!
2012 2013-05-10 22:12:17 <jspilman> a common thread on the forum was people hoping SD would come out against.  I hadn't actually seen their response, that sounds about right!
2013 2013-05-10 22:12:48 xire has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2014 2013-05-10 22:14:16 r0sc0e has joined
2015 2013-05-10 22:14:20 <jspilman> if you get two mined blocks at the same height / same difficulty, the presumed longest chain is whatever block you received first over the network? or block which claims the earliest UTC timestamp?
2016 2013-05-10 22:14:52 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2017 2013-05-10 22:15:35 <MC1984_> first
2018 2013-05-10 22:16:16 <MC1984_> otherwise miners could be sly and set their clocks -10s from realtime
2019 2013-05-10 22:16:25 <MC1984_> and then things get retarded
2020 2013-05-10 22:16:43 <Scrat> hey, if you want to gamble, you can use a website other than SD, hint hint
2021 2013-05-10 22:16:59 <MC1984_> like wot
2022 2013-05-10 22:17:09 <sipa> buy a lottery ticket
2023 2013-05-10 22:17:09 freefox has quit (Quit: freefox)
2024 2013-05-10 22:17:33 <MC1984_> if you want to gamble high stakes, just use -gen
2025 2013-05-10 22:17:34 <jspilman> if those two blocks have a conflicting tx (double spend), I assume each node will only accept further spends into their mem pools from an output on the chain they consider to be the best?
2026 2013-05-10 22:17:36 <MC1984_> lols
2027 2013-05-10 22:18:01 AndChat64721 has joined
2028 2013-05-10 22:18:57 <MC1984_> jspilman i assume thats correct
2029 2013-05-10 22:19:24 <MC1984_> in fact i dont think they would accept a second DS into the mempool after a first, never mind a block
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2032 2013-05-10 22:20:12 <sipa> jspilman: indeed
2033 2013-05-10 22:20:18 <jspilman> what I'm trying to figure out is if you have side chains with double spends, and transactions spending those outputs in memory pool - is the right approach to just dump the orphaned transactions from mempool when chain gets longer?  and then if the other chain ends up longer re-request the block and build it back up?
2034 2013-05-10 22:20:58 <tumak> i think they'll be dumped because the inputs will become invalid at that point of reorg
2035 2013-05-10 22:21:27 <jspilman> or do you hold the invalidated transactions around for some time until it's more clear the side-chain is abandoned
2036 2013-05-10 22:21:50 <sipa> whenever a block is connected to 'your best chain', the transactions in it get removed from the mempool
2037 2013-05-10 22:21:57 Plinker_ is now known as Plinker
2038 2013-05-10 22:22:13 <tumak> jspilman: there must be always decisive victory for reorg and orphaning of the losing chain
2039 2013-05-10 22:22:17 <sipa> whenever a block is disconnect from your best chain, its transactions are pushed back into the mempool (subject to normal mempool acceptance rules)
2040 2013-05-10 22:22:53 <jspilman> so you would dump the double spends.  then if you got another block on the side-chain, making *it* the new longest again...
2041 2013-05-10 22:23:05 <sipa> ;;diff
2042 2013-05-10 22:23:06 <gribble> 1.0076292883418716E7
2043 2013-05-10 22:23:19 AlbertTuring has joined
2044 2013-05-10 22:23:29 <jspilman> you would re-request the prior block to get the transactions that you had dumped out of your mempool?
2045 2013-05-10 22:23:30 <CodeShark> jspilman: there are never any double spends in a single chain
2046 2013-05-10 22:23:53 <jspilman> CodeShark: yes
2047 2013-05-10 22:23:55 <tumak> i think jspilman hypothetised a forked/orphan case
2048 2013-05-10 22:24:07 <sipa> jspilman: i don't understand what you'd need to ask peers for
2049 2013-05-10 22:24:27 <CodeShark> jspilman: I don't think the logic really cares about whether the reason for dumping a transaction is because it is a double spend or because it spends a coin that doesn't exist on the main chain
2050 2013-05-10 22:24:32 <tumak> the losing block txes are reinserted into mempool again the same way as if they were received from network
2051 2013-05-10 22:24:43 <sipa> 74 for more blocks before we cross 2^70 hashes of work in the main chain
2052 2013-05-10 22:24:43 <tumak> so if its double spend, they become invalid
2053 2013-05-10 22:24:45 <CodeShark> either way, the transaction is dumped
2054 2013-05-10 22:25:26 <CodeShark> the txs that are inserted back into the mempool must spend coins that exist and have not been spent
2055 2013-05-10 22:26:41 tyn has joined
2056 2013-05-10 22:26:55 <tumak> the reinsert order should be sane though, ie oldest first when they're pulled from losing branch
2057 2013-05-10 22:27:04 <sipa> tumak: correct
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2060 2013-05-10 22:29:11 <jspilman> e.g.  you receive b1 with t1, and then later b1' which is same height, same difficulty, and has semi-overlapping txs, and a double-spend t1'.  b1 is your chosen head because you received it first.  during this time you are accepting txs into mempool which spend t1 outputs, and rejecting spends of t1'
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2064 2013-05-10 22:29:37 <sipa> correct
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2066 2013-05-10 22:29:54 <sipa> now a b2 arrives that builds upon b1'
2067 2013-05-10 22:30:13 ThomasV has joined
2068 2013-05-10 22:30:17 <jspilman> if you later receive a b2', before you receive b2, b2' becomes the head, and you re-request b1' to get back the t1' that you discarded
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2070 2013-05-10 22:30:36 <sipa> why would you re-request b1'?
2071 2013-05-10 22:30:38 <sipa> you have it
2072 2013-05-10 22:30:39 <CodeShark> you keep b1'
2073 2013-05-10 22:30:44 <CodeShark> even if you don't consider it the head
2074 2013-05-10 22:30:54 <jspilman> where do you keep the t1' which is a double-spend? not in mempool, right?
2075 2013-05-10 22:31:09 <CodeShark> the expense of trashing sidechains is not justified by the minimal space savings
2076 2013-05-10 22:31:15 <jspilman> that's exactly the question - do you have a dead-pool for situations like this, or invalid txs in the mempool?
2077 2013-05-10 22:31:17 <sipa> jspilman: you store all blocks on disk
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2080 2013-05-10 22:31:27 <sipa> jspilman: as soon as they connect to the block tree
2081 2013-05-10 22:31:55 <jspilman> bitcoind keeps the side-chain blocks on disk -- is there an expiration policy?
2082 2013-05-10 22:31:59 <sipa> no
2083 2013-05-10 22:32:00 <CodeShark> no
2084 2013-05-10 22:32:05 <tumak> jspilman: that wouldn't be wise
2085 2013-05-10 22:32:09 <tumak> imagine the bdb fork case
2086 2013-05-10 22:32:30 <sipa> oh, an expiration policy like deleting blocks 1000 deep wouldn't be a problem
2087 2013-05-10 22:32:34 phungus has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2088 2013-05-10 22:32:43 <sipa> but then again, why not just delete all blocks 1000 deep?
2089 2013-05-10 22:32:46 <sipa> much easier to implement
2090 2013-05-10 22:32:48 <tumak> in normal operation even few dozens deep would be ok
2091 2013-05-10 22:32:58 <sipa> and for just side-chains it's just not worth it
2092 2013-05-10 22:33:01 <tumak> but where is the limit? what if the network will need to backtrack 1000 deep
2093 2013-05-10 22:33:28 <CodeShark> if the network has a 1000-deep reorg, we messed up seriously :p
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2096 2013-05-10 22:33:44 <tumak> (besides, the storage requirements are small. sidechains are not that frequent occurence)
2097 2013-05-10 22:34:00 <CodeShark> storage requirements are small - and there's overhead in reorganizing the data files
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2100 2013-05-10 22:34:20 <CodeShark> even assuming there's no actual block tree reorg
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2102 2013-05-10 22:35:10 tholenst has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2103 2013-05-10 22:35:12 <tumak> btw, its fun observing some of the recent scamcoins
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2106 2013-05-10 22:35:31 <tumak> the pump phase and low diff results even 100-200 deeps reorgs and 90% orphan rate
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2115 2013-05-10 22:37:54 <jspilman> ok, thanks! I've been running bitcoinj's ChainSplit tests and watching the re-orgs happen, and thinking about how to track and flag double-spends, and  spends of double-spends
2116 2013-05-10 22:38:14 <CodeShark> you need to keep track of all dependencies
2117 2013-05-10 22:38:32 phungus has joined
2118 2013-05-10 22:39:15 <CodeShark> a nice API should allow you to subscribe to notifications when any of a particular set of transactions is removed from the main chain
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2120 2013-05-10 22:40:01 <jspilman> yeah, currently bitcoinj will tell you after that happens, but not if you get a same-difficulty side-chain with a double-spend, only if that side-chain becomes head
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2122 2013-05-10 22:42:36 <tumak> yeah, it'd be interesting to actually have some facility to track doublespends in sidechains
2123 2013-05-10 22:42:38 <CodeShark> in one implementation I did of confirmation counts, I tracked back all such same-difficulty chains of maximal height to the point where they fork and only consider transactions in the first common block to be confirmed
2124 2013-05-10 22:42:48 <tumak> because now you need to simply wait for 6 confirms
2125 2013-05-10 22:43:00 <tumak> but it would be sufficient to wait for 2 confirms, assuming there is no sidechain running at the moment
2126 2013-05-10 22:43:19 phungus has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2127 2013-05-10 22:43:32 <tumak> (assuming well connected node of merchant)
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2129 2013-05-10 22:44:46 <CodeShark> fortunately these "MaxClades" are rarely very big
2130 2013-05-10 22:44:58 <sipa> MaxClades...?
2131 2013-05-10 22:45:12 <CodeShark> the set of all chains of maximal difficulty
2132 2013-05-10 22:45:19 <sipa> ok...
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2134 2013-05-10 22:45:52 <CodeShark> they usually are shortlived
2135 2013-05-10 22:46:05 <tumak> hm, maybe even 1 confirm
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2138 2013-05-10 22:46:21 <tumak> and accept the tx if sidechain didnt show up in the meantime
2139 2013-05-10 22:46:46 <tumak> i couldn't imagine 10 minutes long propagation delay/block witholding in practice
2140 2013-05-10 22:47:18 <CodeShark> to me, 1 confirmation means it would take 1 block to remove it from a definitive main chain (i.e. even placing it into an equal difficulty "side chain" would count as removing it)
2141 2013-05-10 22:47:34 <tumak> yup
2142 2013-05-10 22:47:53 <tumak> but side chains would be propagated, so you simply wait for another confirm etc etc
2143 2013-05-10 22:47:56 <tumak> until there is no sidechain
2144 2013-05-10 22:48:10 <tumak> so only attack scenario is block witholding sidechain
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2147 2013-05-10 22:48:39 <tumak> which is doable for 1 block by evil miner, not really sure about the odds of more
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2152 2013-05-10 22:50:30 <tumak> CodeShark: to get point across, i'm hypotetising how to pay high amount with as least # of confirms as possible while maintaining reasonable security
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2154 2013-05-10 22:51:25 <CodeShark> if you can get your transaction into two sibling blocks that form a max clade, I'd still consider the transaction confirmed
2155 2013-05-10 22:51:32 <CodeShark> 1 confirmation
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2158 2013-05-10 22:51:54 <CodeShark> because barring another block, your transaction is still in the main chain regardless of which chain you consider the main one
2159 2013-05-10 22:52:18 <CodeShark> but if your transaction is only in one of the sibling blocks, it is not confirmed
2160 2013-05-10 22:52:31 <tumak> yup
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2163 2013-05-10 22:53:08 <tumak> now, what bitcoind considers as confirm?
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2165 2013-05-10 22:53:22 <tumak> simply being in longest chain, regardless of what happens in sidechains?
2166 2013-05-10 22:54:08 <sipa> yes
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2169 2013-05-10 22:54:55 <gmaxwell> tumak: there is no reason that you should expect to even know about any not-first-longest sidechains, alas.
2170 2013-05-10 22:55:05 <gmaxwell> so that reduces the value in doing anything special with them.
2171 2013-05-10 22:55:11 <tumak> gmaxwell: indeed
2172 2013-05-10 22:55:15 <tumak> its not 100% exact
2173 2013-05-10 22:55:47 <tumak> however the sidechain must be propagated sooner or later by attacker
2174 2013-05-10 22:56:09 <tumak> chances of their fork becoming orphan increase as long they withold it
2175 2013-05-10 22:56:33 <gmaxwell> I'm not sure what you're talking about there.
2176 2013-05-10 22:56:52 <gmaxwell> If someone is making a fork that overtakes the chain, thats not a side chain, thats the longest chain.
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2178 2013-05-10 22:57:14 <tumak> we're talking doublespend (or more precisely, spend reversal)
2179 2013-05-10 22:57:34 <tumak> via orphaning of the block which was deemed 1-confirm at some point
2180 2013-05-10 22:57:34 <gmaxwell> Basically other than having multiple peers with timing ties, the only time a node on a function network hears of a sidechain is when its already lost the race for good.
2181 2013-05-10 22:57:38 forrestv has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2184 2013-05-10 22:58:07 <tumak> gmaxwell: i'm assuming evil miner here
2185 2013-05-10 22:58:37 <tumak> (or really lucky attacker playing satoshi with orphans :)
2186 2013-05-10 22:59:04 <CodeShark> I'd actually give a greater gradation to the confirmation count - if there's a 1 block deep fork (two siblings in a max clade) and one has your transaction, the other one has a transaction that conflicts with your transaction, I'd consider that an even lower confirmation level than if the other one simply doesn't have your transaction but does not conflict with it
2187 2013-05-10 22:59:36 <tumak> gmaxwell: as it stands, bitcoind CAN tell me 1 confirm of tx, and it COULD become 0 confirm again after reorg if the sidechain wins
2188 2013-05-10 22:59:46 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: yes, but you're almost certan to never hear of that case until its already resolved decisively, not very useful.
2189 2013-05-10 22:59:53 <tumak> i'm just trying to increase chances of preventing that
2190 2013-05-10 23:00:10 <gmaxwell> tumak: I think you're confused. You can't prevent that.
2191 2013-05-10 23:00:47 <tumak> gmaxwell: to explain better, make the window of "fake" 1 confirm smaller
2192 2013-05-10 23:01:29 <tumak> but yeah, in practice 2 confirms will be far more secure :(
2193 2013-05-10 23:02:01 <gmaxwell> I think you should actually lay out exactly the sequence of steps in the attack and how you'd prevent them from being effective.
2194 2013-05-10 23:02:43 <CodeShark> 2 confirms make it such that a reorg will likely be more the result of either connectivity issues or bugs rather than something malicious :)
2195 2013-05-10 23:03:07 <CodeShark> err, I mean
2196 2013-05-10 23:03:41 <CodeShark> hard to word what I mean :p
2197 2013-05-10 23:05:02 <CodeShark> a reorg that is more than 2 blocks deep is likely due to serious connectivity issues, a bug, or malice - whereas a 1-deep reorg shouldn't be too extremely uncommon
2198 2013-05-10 23:05:30 <CodeShark> even with normal network operation
2199 2013-05-10 23:05:38 <jspilman> @gmaxwell: I hear miners complain about orphans - every orphan was at one point a 1-block fork. every node independently decides priority based on network rx time, but I guess most important is what percentage of the miners see which block first?
2200 2013-05-10 23:05:45 <ali1234> Luke-Jr: you pinged me?
2201 2013-05-10 23:05:52 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: if innocent 1-deep reorgs have probablity P then two deep is P^2 and so on.
2202 2013-05-10 23:05:53 jchp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2203 2013-05-10 23:06:08 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: is that really true?
2204 2013-05-10 23:06:42 jchp has joined
2205 2013-05-10 23:06:43 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: yes, roughly, because the same factors that cause a contest on first block create a constest on the second and so on.
2206 2013-05-10 23:06:58 <tumak> gmaxwell: indeed, i suck horribly at walls of text let me see if someone already pondered it concisely on the forums :)
2207 2013-05-10 23:07:30 rushed has joined
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2209 2013-05-10 23:07:57 <jspilman> does P^2 come from the pdf of the hashcash? or network propagation?
2210 2013-05-10 23:08:08 <CodeShark> the former
2211 2013-05-10 23:08:42 <gmaxwell> jspilman: if the network (and validation) is infinitely fast there are no innocent races.
2212 2013-05-10 23:09:19 <jspilman> so the variability of hashcash is the essential component of resolving splits
2213 2013-05-10 23:09:22 <gmaxwell> (and switching tasks, and so on, if everything happens innocently: all orphaning is due to some source of latency)
2214 2013-05-10 23:09:37 <gavinandresen> I just rebuilt and resigned and reuploaded the osx 0.8.2rc1 binary, somehow I managed to build the original against a slightly out-of-date tree
2215 2013-05-10 23:09:43 AndChat64721 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2216 2013-05-10 23:10:01 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: eek. Did you catch this or did someone else catch it?
2217 2013-05-10 23:10:14 <gavinandresen> I noticed the version wasn't 0.8.2rc1
2218 2013-05-10 23:10:27 Luke-Jr has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2219 2013-05-10 23:10:38 <gavinandresen> yay for version on the splash screen....
2220 2013-05-10 23:10:52 <gmaxwell> jspilman: yes, if say everyone found a new block every X ms then the network wouldn't converge or at least not reliably and with short reorgs.
2221 2013-05-10 23:10:58 <tumak> http://blockchain.info/orphaned-blocks?offset=125
2222 2013-05-10 23:10:59 <edcba> why isn't there some more deterministic rule about which block to privilege when at same height ?
2223 2013-05-10 23:11:04 <tumak> does anyone have idea what happened here?
2224 2013-05-10 23:11:06 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: Ah. I noticed someone on the forum commented on the version.
2225 2013-05-10 23:11:20 <tumak> i mean the probability of this is P^5 or so
2226 2013-05-10 23:11:25 <CodeShark> edbca: I suppose the block with the smaller hash could take precedence
2227 2013-05-10 23:11:25 <gmaxwell> edcba: not preferring the first can greatly harm convergence.
2228 2013-05-10 23:11:31 <sipa> edcba: the one we have guarantees the fastest converging behaviour (absent malicious intent)
2229 2013-05-10 23:12:03 paraipan has quit (Quit: Saliendo)
2230 2013-05-10 23:12:05 <gmaxwell> tumak: p2sh deployment I assume (not actually looking at the blocks in question)
2231 2013-05-10 23:12:14 <tumak> block #222562 - #222572 , 10 orphans
2232 2013-05-10 23:12:16 <sipa> gavinandresen: sounds like an april fools day "We accidentally uploaded a solidcoin binary instead..."
2233 2013-05-10 23:12:20 <tumak> gmaxwell: ah, i see
2234 2013-05-10 23:12:49 <gmaxwell> Unfortunate that no one else noticed that the binaries didn't match the source faster.
2235 2013-05-10 23:13:06 <edcba> but if we wouldn't reject blocks then everyone will work with same block
2236 2013-05-10 23:13:15 <gavinandresen> well, if we had gitian builds for osx.....
2237 2013-05-10 23:13:31 <tumak> indeed other than protocol hardforks, more than 1 level reorgs are extremely rare
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2239 2013-05-10 23:14:00 <edcba> downside is bandwidth of course
2240 2013-05-10 23:14:24 <edcba> anyway only miners care about orphans :p
2241 2013-05-10 23:14:35 <CodeShark> edcba: the idea would be to consider any block that satisfies proof-of-work for given difficulty (as well as all the other requirements) to be valid - but if there are ever two blocks at maximum difficulty, the one with the lower hash is considered valid by nodes
2242 2013-05-10 23:14:41 <gmaxwell> tumak: there was no protocol hardfork there.
2243 2013-05-10 23:15:06 <tumak> why the 10 deep sidechain then?
2244 2013-05-10 23:15:08 <MC1984_> !blocks
2245 2013-05-10 23:15:09 <gribble> 235543
2246 2013-05-10 23:15:20 <MC1984_> lawd
2247 2013-05-10 23:15:41 <CodeShark> is there any reason why this scheme would be a bad idea?
2248 2013-05-10 23:15:42 <sipa> ;;stats
2249 2013-05-10 23:15:43 <gribble> I have 18 registered users with 23 registered hostmasks; 1 owner and 0 admins.
2250 2013-05-10 23:15:52 <sipa> ;;bc,stats
2251 2013-05-10 23:15:54 <gribble> Current Blocks: 235543 | Current Difficulty: 1.0076292883418716E7 | Next Difficulty At Block: 235871 | Next Difficulty In: 328 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 22 hours, 51 minutes, and 25 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 10975850.5257 | Estimated Percent Change: 8.92747
2252 2013-05-10 23:16:23 <MC1984_> is the txin/sec stat based on verifier cpu time or absolute time, its bouncing around quite a lot
2253 2013-05-10 23:17:00 <CodeShark> hmm, nevermind that idea :p
2254 2013-05-10 23:17:03 <CodeShark> I see why it wouldn't work :p
2255 2013-05-10 23:17:04 <sipa> MC1984_: real time
2256 2013-05-10 23:17:20 <sipa> MC1984_: but it includes input fetching time
2257 2013-05-10 23:17:32 <sipa> so you really need large dbcache to make it reliable
2258 2013-05-10 23:17:57 <MC1984_> ah
2259 2013-05-10 23:18:13 <MC1984_> lets do that then
2260 2013-05-10 23:18:47 <cjd> bitcoin is one of those incredible things because all of those ideas about difficulty change sound so intoxicatingly good but satoshi saw through every one of them in a relatively short time he spent developing it.
2261 2013-05-10 23:19:16 <sipa> it took him 2+ years to develop it
2262 2013-05-10 23:19:28 <gmaxwell> tumak: because some node mined a p2sh invalid block, and a small minority of hashpower was not p2sh enforcing.
2263 2013-05-10 23:19:31 <cjd> that's still pretty fast IMO
2264 2013-05-10 23:19:36 andyh2 has joined
2265 2013-05-10 23:19:48 <edcba> no it's not fast !
2266 2013-05-10 23:20:12 <gmaxwell> cjd: satoshi seems to have applied a simple over complex hurestic in most cases; this actually steers you out of a lot of bad ideas without really considering them.
2267 2013-05-10 23:20:22 <edcba> of course it may be fast since he may just code it 1h each week ;)
2268 2013-05-10 23:20:28 <gmaxwell> cjd: as many of the bad ideas are considerably more complicated than what bitcoin does.
2269 2013-05-10 23:20:44 <cjd> makes sense
2270 2013-05-10 23:21:11 <cjd> "complicated to prove it will not have problems" is a good sign there are problems
2271 2013-05-10 23:21:25 <edcba> script...
2272 2013-05-10 23:21:32 <gmaxwell> It's actually what makes the bad ideas more subtle. Like the debugging quip: if your protocol rule is as complex as your smarts can make it, you— by definition— are not smart enough to see its flaws.
2273 2013-05-10 23:21:33 <CodeShark> goedel and turing? :)
2274 2013-05-10 23:21:59 <tumak> gmaxwell: oh, isee
2275 2013-05-10 23:22:01 <sipa> like in cryptography: everyone is smart enough to design a system he can't break himself
2276 2013-05-10 23:22:06 <tumak> gmaxwell: wasnt aware of the associated drama - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=58579.0 :)
2277 2013-05-10 23:22:29 d34th has joined
2278 2013-05-10 23:22:30 <CodeShark> if (Halts()) while (true);
2279 2013-05-10 23:23:13 <gmaxwell> tumak: well that had nothing to do with the transisition, luke had dropped his argument and supported p2sh (not by preference, but by reconizing conflict was worse than the solution he didn't prefer) by the time it was settled.
2280 2013-05-10 23:24:20 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
2281 2013-05-10 23:24:25 <tumak> yeah, its enlightening wrt the whole hardfork process which i was oblivious of up until now
2282 2013-05-10 23:24:46 <sipa> the may15 fork?
2283 2013-05-10 23:24:50 <gmaxwell> p2sh was _________not_________ a hardfork.
2284 2013-05-10 23:24:53 <CodeShark> I'm in favor of replacing the scripting system entirely :p
2285 2013-05-10 23:24:56 <cjd> xD
2286 2013-05-10 23:25:38 <cjd> p2sh says "I will pay any tx where the hash of the input == x" ?
2287 2013-05-10 23:25:45 <cjd> *input script
2288 2013-05-10 23:25:49 <tumak> gmaxwell: i think forward/backward compatibility is splitting hairs. any protocol change is a hardfork, or not?
2289 2013-05-10 23:25:55 <gmaxwell> tumak: the reason for the non-enforcing nodes when p2sh was deployed was purely miners/pools asleep at the wheel. Even if there was anyone philosophically opposed then surely they would have at least configured them to reject transactions that would get their blocks orphaned.
2290 2013-05-10 23:26:00 <gmaxwell> tumak: no sir.
2291 2013-05-10 23:26:17 <gmaxwell> tumak: Bitcoin from a couple years ago still runs fine on the network today.
2292 2013-05-10 23:26:31 agricocb has joined
2293 2013-05-10 23:26:34 * cjd checks date
2294 2013-05-10 23:26:34 <sipa> tumak: there has never _ever_ been a hard fork in bitcoin's history, as far as i know
2295 2013-05-10 23:26:42 rushed has quit (Quit: rushed)
2296 2013-05-10 23:26:44 <sipa> bitcoin 0.1.5 should still be able to validate the current chain
2297 2013-05-10 23:26:49 <gmaxwell> The original bitcoin software will, in fact, if you give it a gateway to fix the change in the version message format for it.
2298 2013-05-10 23:27:04 <sipa> (even though the p2p protocol changed, so you'd need a translating proxy)
2299 2013-05-10 23:27:22 <sipa> ow, i should read
2300 2013-05-10 23:27:30 <tumak> ah, i see
2301 2013-05-10 23:27:36 <CodeShark> it also requires a special rule which says "check the hash, pop off the script then replace the scriptPubKey with it"
2302 2013-05-10 23:27:49 <tumak> there cannot be hardfork, ever
2303 2013-05-10 23:28:02 <cjd> until may15
2304 2013-05-10 23:28:03 <sipa> there will be one in a few days!
2305 2013-05-10 23:28:06 <tumak> from perspective of winning chain which is compatible up to 0.1.5
2306 2013-05-10 23:28:25 <sipa> no, within a few days we may have a chain that 0.1.5 would reject
2307 2013-05-10 23:28:42 <edcba> hmm
2308 2013-05-10 23:28:48 <edcba> i did miss something
2309 2013-05-10 23:28:49 <tumak> i thought hardfork is any protocol change or bug which leads to long sidechain, obviously some chain will win
2310 2013-05-10 23:28:56 <cjd> has anyone tried making a 1MB 1 transaction block?
2311 2013-05-10 23:29:04 <cjd> to see if it breaks anything else
2312 2013-05-10 23:29:06 <gmaxwell> tumak: except all versions of bitcoin prior to 0.8 have a database non-determinism that will make them randomly reject chains with blocks that modify large numbers of transactions. ... pretty intolerable.
2313 2013-05-10 23:29:13 <gmaxwell> cjd: sure, there are many in testnet.
2314 2013-05-10 23:29:18 <CodeShark> just wondering, wouldn't it have been possible to have a new OP_CODE that performs this pop-the-serialized-script-off-the-scriptSig-and-use-it-as-scriptPubKey?
2315 2013-05-10 23:29:22 <cjd> hrm
2316 2013-05-10 23:29:30 <sipa> tumak: a hardforking change is a change to the block validity rules which means old nodes do not accept everything new nodes do
2317 2013-05-10 23:29:30 <cjd> why did this lock issue not hit testnet?
2318 2013-05-10 23:29:39 <tumak> gmaxwell: thats kinda implementation bug, rather than protocol change though
2319 2013-05-10 23:29:42 <sipa> cjd: because size isn't what triggers it
2320 2013-05-10 23:29:55 <sipa> tumak: the protocol is implementation-defined, even if non intentionally
2321 2013-05-10 23:30:00 <cjd> grr @ indeterminent magic
2322 2013-05-10 23:30:02 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: yes, that was luke-jr's proposal. But it resulted in having a nonstandard txn (really was not an issue and was kinda a benefit), and took an extra byte to encode.
2323 2013-05-10 23:30:14 <tumak> sipa: which is what p2sh did. it changed rules so that new txes are invalid from pov of old clients. same effect as bdb.
2324 2013-05-10 23:30:16 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
2325 2013-05-10 23:30:19 <sipa> tumak: NO
2326 2013-05-10 23:30:24 <gmaxwell> tumak: NO. jesus.
2327 2013-05-10 23:30:31 <sipa> tumak: p2sh was specifically designed so that old clients would still accept it
2328 2013-05-10 23:30:33 <tumak> new txes with p2sh :)
2329 2013-05-10 23:30:41 rdymac has joined
2330 2013-05-10 23:30:47 <sipa> if that was true, 0.1.5 wouldn't validate the current chain anymore
2331 2013-05-10 23:30:48 <tumak> was it? why did the chain split for 10 blocks then?
2332 2013-05-10 23:30:59 <sipa> that was not a hard fork, as it resolved
2333 2013-05-10 23:31:07 <tumak> yeah, the newer clients won
2334 2013-05-10 23:31:09 <cjd> tumak: old nodes look at p2sh and are like "yeap valid" without even looking at it
2335 2013-05-10 23:31:15 <sipa> tumak: no, ALL clients won
2336 2013-05-10 23:31:15 <jspilman> because the stack ends up with data on it, but any stack that is non-zero is considered valid, yes?
2337 2013-05-10 23:31:19 Vinnie_win has quit ()
2338 2013-05-10 23:31:23 <sipa> tumak: there were just some stupid miners
2339 2013-05-10 23:31:29 <tumak> oh
2340 2013-05-10 23:31:37 <tumak> so it was broken custom implementation
2341 2013-05-10 23:31:44 * tumak crawls back to his hole
2342 2013-05-10 23:31:53 <sipa> an incorrectly-configured switchover date, afaik
2343 2013-05-10 23:31:54 <tumak> but say it next time when there is sidechain, its few miners running non-standard stuf
2344 2013-05-10 23:31:57 <tumak> :)
2345 2013-05-10 23:32:40 <sipa> anyway: may15 the first hard fork ever will happen
2346 2013-05-10 23:32:50 alexwaters has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2347 2013-05-10 23:32:54 <sipa> and old clients will not accept the new chain
2348 2013-05-10 23:33:16 <tumak> well, old satoshi clients
2349 2013-05-10 23:33:23 <sipa> yes
2350 2013-05-10 23:33:24 <jspilman> so you can create an invalid redeemScript, spend to that P2SH, then an old miner would accept an scriptSig with the invalid redeemScript, but a new client would check the redeemScript and find it to return 0
2351 2013-05-10 23:33:25 <tumak> most other clients dont have silly database rules :)
2352 2013-05-10 23:33:31 <gmaxwell> There are no other full nodes.
2353 2013-05-10 23:33:36 <gmaxwell> (not old ones at least)
2354 2013-05-10 23:33:53 <sipa> tumak: which other clients are you talking about?
2355 2013-05-10 23:33:56 <edcba> but they don't accept the new chain because of a database problem ?
2356 2013-05-10 23:34:07 <sipa> edcba: yes
2357 2013-05-10 23:34:09 <tumak> sipa: depends if someone actually uses bitcoinjs/bitcoinj in a pool
2358 2013-05-10 23:34:20 <gmaxwell> lol
2359 2013-05-10 23:34:23 <edcba> and you just fixed the database in new client ?
2360 2013-05-10 23:34:30 <tumak> gmaxwell: sounds kinda scary i know :)
2361 2013-05-10 23:34:32 <gmaxwell> bitcoinj (until very recently) was purely a spv node— validates nothing.
2362 2013-05-10 23:34:48 <gmaxwell> I fully support other miners running their pools on that.. more bitcoins for me.
2363 2013-05-10 23:34:50 <CodeShark> I thought spv validates block headers
2364 2013-05-10 23:34:51 <gmaxwell> :P
2365 2013-05-10 23:35:00 <sipa> CodeShark: indeed
2366 2013-05-10 23:35:01 <tumak> bitcoinjs validates scripts, but its super buggy
2367 2013-05-10 23:35:01 <cjd> xD
2368 2013-05-10 23:35:03 <cjd> lol
2369 2013-05-10 23:35:07 <tumak> it can validate main net, but not testnet
2370 2013-05-10 23:35:24 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: Yes, indeed, I didn't mean nothing _that_ expansively. :P
2371 2013-05-10 23:35:49 <CodeShark> still expensive to construct a valid chain of block headers that turn out to encode fraudulent transactions :)
2372 2013-05-10 23:35:50 <edcba> it's just some technical hardfork so ? nothing due to protocol change ?
2373 2013-05-10 23:35:57 <gmaxwell> tumak: right this is why I said that there are no other full nodes (at least until recently, perhaps grau's or bitcoinj's full code could actually qualifiy now)
2374 2013-05-10 23:36:19 <cjd> it would be nice to have a "script engine" protocol where you can pass a transaction and all transactions which are inputs and it will return 1 or 0 depending on whether it is valid or not
2375 2013-05-10 23:36:36 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: without validating you can't include any txn at all (except perhaps your own spends of confirmed transactions), or your at risk of getting forked off.
2376 2013-05-10 23:36:43 <sipa> edcba: what's the difference?
2377 2013-05-10 23:36:52 <cjd> seperate out the script engine from the rest of bitcoind then it could be grafted into other codebases
2378 2013-05-10 23:36:52 <edcba> sipa: alt clients
2379 2013-05-10 23:36:53 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: yeah, an spv node cannot act as a relay node
2380 2013-05-10 23:36:53 <jspilman> bitcoin magazine has an article about btcd - an implementation in go
2381 2013-05-10 23:36:58 <sipa> edcba: the effective validity rules for blocks on the network change in a backward incompatible way
2382 2013-05-10 23:37:03 <tumak> gmaxwell: well, from what i can tell bitcoinjs has script/tx validation for 2 years
2383 2013-05-10 23:37:11 <CodeShark> or at least cannot act as a relay node without opening itself up to floods of spam
2384 2013-05-10 23:37:14 <jspilman> there's some unfortunate FUD in that article :-(
2385 2013-05-10 23:37:15 <tumak> gmaxwell: so correct statement, there are no "safe" full nodes :)
2386 2013-05-10 23:37:22 <gmaxwell> jspilman: why would they write an article about something not released yet?
2387 2013-05-10 23:37:30 <gmaxwell> jspilman: see the thread on hacker news
2388 2013-05-10 23:37:33 <sipa> tumak: more like: there is no infrastructure relying on other full nodes
2389 2013-05-10 23:37:38 <jspilman> "David encountered several problems with porting to Bitrig and in the process found issues with unit tests, non-portable functions and seeding of a PRNG."
2390 2013-05-10 23:38:04 <jspilman> seeding of a PRNG? was there an issue actually reported / fixed against bitcoind or is this just BS
2391 2013-05-10 23:38:42 <tumak> sipa: which kinda sucks from centralization of implementation standpoint, but yet its the only way in practice :/
2392 2013-05-10 23:39:08 <gmaxwell> jspilman: if I'm not mistaken about which person david is: their OS had a broken for our purposes rand() implementation and our unit tests correctly rejected it.
2393 2013-05-10 23:39:34 <cjd> he used rand() to get random numbers? :D
2394 2013-05-10 23:39:44 <gmaxwell> jspilman: I subsiquently changed bitcoin to use its own internal non-cryptographic rand() for those puroses.
2395 2013-05-10 23:39:49 <tumak> keypool generated by fair roll of dice
2396 2013-05-10 23:40:18 <tumak> ah, not rand_bytes
2397 2013-05-10 23:40:28 <gmaxwell> cjd: we use a non-crytographic rand() in bitcoin for the knapsack solver used to select coins to compose a transaction. It doesn't need to be cryptographically strong but it does need to be fast (and our cryptographically strong one is not fast)
2398 2013-05-10 23:40:43 <cjd> yeap
2399 2013-05-10 23:41:05 <cjd> I wrote a prng (yes plz kick me) because none of the other ones were satisfactory
2400 2013-05-10 23:41:12 <cjd> it generates like 300MB/s
2401 2013-05-10 23:41:18 <edcba> knapsack solver to select coins ? i didn't remember bitcoin that complex lol
2402 2013-05-10 23:41:30 <CodeShark> the wallet, edcba
2403 2013-05-10 23:41:42 <edcba> does it use LLL ? :)
2404 2013-05-10 23:41:47 <gmaxwell> cjd: it used to use the OS's rand(), but some crazy openbsd fork had a rand that only returned even numbers. Not so great when you're only using the least significant bit. (which is generally inadvisable, since posix systems rand() often uses a LCG)
2405 2013-05-10 23:41:50 tyn has joined
2406 2013-05-10 23:42:04 <cjd> whatthe
2407 2013-05-10 23:42:05 <tumak> lol
2408 2013-05-10 23:42:16 <cjd> rand() >> 1 ??
2409 2013-05-10 23:42:17 <cjd> hehe
2410 2013-05-10 23:42:49 <jspilman> btw - once you select which unspent outputs and change address - arguably is it better to randomize the order of the TxIn, or another option would be always put them lexicographic order of the hashes/outnum?
2411 2013-05-10 23:42:56 <tumak> or really crap marsenne twister with even constant
2412 2013-05-10 23:43:03 <gmaxwell> cjd: well pretty easy to make an LCG that does that.
2413 2013-05-10 23:43:04 <sipa> jspilman: the inputs are randomized
2414 2013-05-10 23:43:05 <jspilman> err
2415 2013-05-10 23:43:13 <sipa> oh
2416 2013-05-10 23:43:16 <sipa> no, the outputs are
2417 2013-05-10 23:43:19 <jspilman> sorry, talking about outputs, sorry
2418 2013-05-10 23:43:44 <gmaxwell> cjd: in any case, it is at least slightly ironic to fault bitcoin there when their OS's rand was clearly braindamaged and at least we had unit tests that caught the crazy behavior.
2419 2013-05-10 23:43:58 <cjd> /nod
2420 2013-05-10 23:44:13 <jspilman> goal is to impute no side-channel.  so would lexicographic order be equally valid?
2421 2013-05-10 23:44:15 <sipa> (though for a rather long time bitcoind had a bug where it didn't actualy randomize outputs)
2422 2013-05-10 23:44:23 <sipa> jspilman: sorting by what?
2423 2013-05-10 23:44:37 <jspilman> literal bytes - amount and scriptPubKey
2424 2013-05-10 23:44:54 <jspilman> just so you don't have to even think about rand()
2425 2013-05-10 23:45:11 <gmaxwell> (though I also agree that using the least significant bit of rand() was stupid on bitcoin's part—)
2426 2013-05-10 23:45:15 <gmaxwell> jspilman: that isn't what this is talking about.
2427 2013-05-10 23:45:43 <gmaxwell> and yes, a sorted output set would be okay too. Though if only one client type does it a given way it identifies the software.
2428 2013-05-10 23:45:45 <edcba> any bit should be as rand as others :p
2429 2013-05-10 23:45:58 <gmaxwell> edcba: thats often not the case for rand() on posix systems.
2430 2013-05-10 23:46:08 <gmaxwell> (even says so in the manpage!)
2431 2013-05-10 23:46:35 egis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2432 2013-05-10 23:47:11 <gmaxwell> Knuth has an extensive discussion of LCGs and such in one of the TAOCP books.
2433 2013-05-10 23:47:35 <sipa> "Who are you and what are you doing in my house?"
2434 2013-05-10 23:48:47 Elmf has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2436 2013-05-10 23:48:48 guruvan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2437 2013-05-10 23:48:53 <gmaxwell> hahah
2438 2013-05-10 23:48:54 <jspilman> I like the idea of sorting versus rand() since rand is harder to test, but good point that the tx's would stick out as coming from that software.  not sure if that's a weakness per say
2439 2013-05-10 23:49:06 Elmf has joined
2440 2013-05-10 23:49:30 MaybeJustNothing has joined
2441 2013-05-10 23:50:02 <edcba> exfiltrating data through bitcoin chain must be quite hard...
2442 2013-05-10 23:50:12 <tumak> jspilman: well, if thats the case, why not use crypto strong (with small entropy input) rand for that?
2443 2013-05-10 23:50:21 wamatt has quit (Quit: wamatt)
2444 2013-05-10 23:50:22 optimator_ is now known as optimator
2445 2013-05-10 23:51:42 <cjd> https://github.com/cjdelisle/cjdns/blob/master/crypto/random/Random.c <-- this is my attempt at a less scary prng
2446 2013-05-10 23:51:52 <jspilman> tumak: my point is an alternate approach which doesn't use rand() but doesn't impute change address
2447 2013-05-10 23:52:56 <gmaxwell> jspilman: except you're actually not talking about the same thing we were originally talking about at all.
2448 2013-05-10 23:52:58 zoinky has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2449 2013-05-10 23:53:23 <edcba> return 4;
2450 2013-05-10 23:53:28 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
2451 2013-05-10 23:53:33 <gmaxwell> What you're talking about is okay for output ordering (though I'd be concerned about identifying implementations), but the knapsack solver still needs a 'randomness' source.
2452 2013-05-10 23:53:52 newbie46 has joined
2453 2013-05-10 23:54:24 <jspilman> @gmaxwell: yes, I asked about the "PRNG bug" in bitcoin magazine, then said.. "BTW---"
2454 2013-05-10 23:55:52 <GMP> btw, there is really cool puzzle, variation of knapsack problem : http://projecteuler.net/problem=152
2455 2013-05-10 23:56:07 <tumak> jspilman: salsa is fair crypto prng
2456 2013-05-10 23:56:31 <tumak> jspilman: though i'd use only 256 bits from it, to thwart some statistical attacks outlined by djb
2457 2013-05-10 23:56:52 <tumak> s/jspilman/cjd/
2458 2013-05-10 23:56:53 <tumak> darn
2459 2013-05-10 23:56:57 <GMP> (dont google for an answer - you will be disappointed)
2460 2013-05-10 23:58:08 guruvan has joined
2461 2013-05-10 23:58:24 <tumak> GMP: i'd bruteforce it :)
2462 2013-05-10 23:58:31 <cjd> tumak: hmm.. the whole purpose of the prng is to not use a feedback loop because it is super hard to satisfy one's self that it won't end up deterministic
2463 2013-05-10 23:58:34 <GMP> 2^80
2464 2013-05-10 23:58:52 <cjd> re arc4 not-so-random
2465 2013-05-10 23:59:00 <cjd> and openssl bug
2466 2013-05-10 23:59:05 <tumak> GMP: argh :(
2467 2013-05-10 23:59:16 <tumak> opencl bruteforce it then
2468 2013-05-10 23:59:35 <gmaxwell> ...
2469 2013-05-10 23:59:49 * sipa wonders when Bitcoin will have performed 2^80 hashes
2470 2013-05-10 23:59:55 <edcba> yeah any client should have a gpu card anyway :)