1 2013-05-12 00:00:11 gonffen_ is now known as gonffen
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   3 2013-05-12 00:00:27 <ghash> sipa: I've been trying to get this running for a week now, I am not very experienced. I didnt have a point where to start, the apt get bitcoind was always the point that messed it up i guess
   4 2013-05-12 00:00:34 luke-jr__ is now known as luke-jr_
   5 2013-05-12 00:00:36 <BTCOxygen> IMO, BerkeleyDB is the core of all problems when building bitcoind
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   7 2013-05-12 00:00:54 <BTCOxygen> The LevelDB version might be much better.
   8 2013-05-12 00:00:56 <BTCOxygen> :)
   9 2013-05-12 00:01:12 <cjd> 8.x still uses berkley :(
  10 2013-05-12 00:01:17 <cjd> it also uses level
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 295 2013-05-12 01:44:26 MC1984 has joined
 296 2013-05-12 01:46:56 <MC1984> wow one of my peers is co.za
 297 2013-05-12 01:47:34 <ghash> that means?
 298 2013-05-12 01:47:36 gagecolton has joined
 299 2013-05-12 01:47:54 <franl> za is South Africa, right?
 300 2013-05-12 01:48:03 Arbition_ is now known as Arbition
 301 2013-05-12 01:48:26 <MC1984> hes up to date too
 302 2013-05-12 01:48:36 <MC1984> and two .cn
 303 2013-05-12 01:48:46 prismatictrail has joined
 304 2013-05-12 01:49:09 owowo has joined
 305 2013-05-12 01:49:27 MobiusL has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
 306 2013-05-12 01:49:28 <MC1984> and even a .ca truly bitcoin is spreading oppresive regimes everywhere
 307 2013-05-12 01:49:36 <franl> I wonder if the .cn nodes are government operated.  Would they let citizen-operated bitcoin traffic through the Great Firewall?
 308 2013-05-12 01:49:47 owowo has quit (Client Quit)
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 311 2013-05-12 01:50:15 <MC1984> the china edge isnt whitelist only
 312 2013-05-12 01:50:51 <MC1984> they monitor everything and blacklist things which threaten the social order of the republic or whatever
 313 2013-05-12 01:51:35 BCBot has joined
 314 2013-05-12 01:51:45 <MC1984>  "subver" : "/Ufasoft Coin:0.58/", wth is this a miner or something
 315 2013-05-12 01:52:52 bitexchanger has joined
 316 2013-05-12 01:52:55 <cjd> http://ufasoft.com/coin/ <-- looks like yet_another_client
 317 2013-05-12 01:53:05 <bitexchanger> Can you send bitcoins even if your blockchain is not up to date?
 318 2013-05-12 01:53:23 <cjd> yes, sending is possible
 319 2013-05-12 01:53:55 <MC1984> got a .bn, thats brunei!
 320 2013-05-12 01:53:56 <bitexchanger> One more question: If i do not update my client before may 15th, can I just update it at a later date or will I lose my coins?
 321 2013-05-12 01:54:16 <cjd> you won't lose your money
 322 2013-05-12 01:54:17 <denisx> bitexchanger: if you not mine there is no problem
 323 2013-05-12 01:54:29 <cjd> well
 324 2013-05-12 01:54:49 <cjd> if you wait until after the 15th, you might have your client fail to sync with the chain
 325 2013-05-12 01:54:59 <cjd> but that doesn't mean you lose anything, the client just stops working
 326 2013-05-12 01:55:02 franl has quit (Quit: Back after a reboot (curse you Windows!))
 327 2013-05-12 01:55:08 <cjd> then you have to update :)
 328 2013-05-12 01:55:18 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
 329 2013-05-12 01:55:55 <bitexchanger> One final question.. If i make a backup of my wallet.dat... do i have to keep backing it up every time I do a new transaction, or only have to make a new backup if i add a new recieving address?
 330 2013-05-12 01:56:19 <denisx> bitexchanger: no, the is a keypool of 100 keys by default
 331 2013-05-12 01:56:40 Mr_G has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 332 2013-05-12 01:56:43 <bitexchanger> So as long as I don't make more than 100 addresses I don't need to back it up ?
 333 2013-05-12 01:56:47 <bitexchanger> or 100 transactions?
 334 2013-05-12 01:56:55 <denisx> yep
 335 2013-05-12 01:57:07 <ali1234> 100 transactions since each one will use up a new address from the pool
 336 2013-05-12 01:57:14 <ali1234> because change
 337 2013-05-12 01:57:15 <denisx> go into the console use 'getinfo'
 338 2013-05-12 01:57:21 <MC1984> sending coins burns a keypool entry too remember
 339 2013-05-12 01:57:24 <denisx> there is the keypoololdest value
 340 2013-05-12 01:57:36 <denisx> if your backup is older than that you need a new backup
 341 2013-05-12 01:58:08 Prattler has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 342 2013-05-12 01:58:33 <bitexchanger> So as long as I don't have more than 100 transactions in my wallet, It doesn't need to be backed up yet?
 343 2013-05-12 01:58:45 <bitexchanger> that includes sending and recieving , correct?
 344 2013-05-12 01:58:54 <ali1234> no
 345 2013-05-12 01:58:54 <MC1984> yes
 346 2013-05-12 01:58:56 Guest93222 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 347 2013-05-12 01:59:02 <MC1984> but better safe than sorry
 348 2013-05-12 01:59:05 <bitexchanger> no? yes?
 349 2013-05-12 01:59:25 <bitexchanger> ali1234: Why did you say no, or did you mean no I do not need to back it up?
 350 2013-05-12 01:59:32 n5 has joined
 351 2013-05-12 01:59:39 <ali1234> if you run "getnewaddress" 101 times and then send coins to the last address you need to backup again
 352 2013-05-12 01:59:58 <robbak_> Back it up, but not receiving transactions, unless you created a new addres to receive it with (which youshould)
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 355 2013-05-12 02:00:18 <ali1234> just do what denisx said
 356 2013-05-12 02:00:36 <ali1234> "keypoololdest" -> if backup is older then you need to backup
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 376 2013-05-12 02:21:28 <ngc0202> How do I send a raw transaction?
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 394 2013-05-12 02:30:27 <flound1129> are txid's guaranteed unique?
 395 2013-05-12 02:31:08 <lianj> yes-ish. not guaranteed though
 396 2013-05-12 02:31:17 <flound1129> ok
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 399 2013-05-12 02:31:30 <flound1129> is there a way to get the block number for a generate/immature transaction?
 400 2013-05-12 02:31:54 <lianj> what do you mean?
 401 2013-05-12 02:32:02 <flound1129> well
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 403 2013-05-12 02:32:27 <flound1129> if my pool finds a block
 404 2013-05-12 02:32:37 <flound1129> I have the block number in the shares db
 405 2013-05-12 02:32:42 <flound1129> but no way to match it up with txid
 406 2013-05-12 02:33:05 <denisx> sounds like pushpoold
 407 2013-05-12 02:34:15 <flound1129> stratum
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 410 2013-05-12 02:36:13 <flound1129> and the solution logged in the shares table doesn't match the one in the transaction
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 421 2013-05-12 02:43:47 <luke-jr_> lianj: actually, unspent txids are guaranteed to be unique
 422 2013-05-12 02:44:02 <luke-jr_> flound1129: note, however, that the same transaction may change txids
 423 2013-05-12 02:45:28 luke-jr_ is now known as Luke-Jr
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 425 2013-05-12 02:47:39 <NxTitle> Luke-Jr: cool, didn't know that - what guarantees them to be unique?
 426 2013-05-12 02:48:04 <NxTitle> or is it just so improbable as to not happen in practice?
 427 2013-05-12 02:48:17 <cjd> id == sha256 of the transaction
 428 2013-05-12 02:48:50 <NxTitle> cjd: I know that much, but how is that guaranteed to be unique?
 429 2013-05-12 02:48:50 <Luke-Jr> NxTitle: it's super-improbable, but also there is a protocol rule that the same txids cannot enter the UTXO more than once
 430 2013-05-12 02:49:12 <NxTitle> Luke-Jr: ah, I see - so if it collides, none of the other nodes will accept it?
 431 2013-05-12 02:49:34 <cjd> if you can make sha256 collisions then bitcoin has some other issues
 432 2013-05-12 02:49:41 <cjd> not to mention the rest of the world
 433 2013-05-12 02:49:42 <SomeoneWeird> so does the rest of the world
 434 2013-05-12 02:49:43 <NxTitle> cjd: I mean unintentoinally
 435 2013-05-12 02:49:44 <SomeoneWeird> lol
 436 2013-05-12 02:50:00 <NxTitle> obviously it's super improbable
 437 2013-05-12 02:50:01 <Luke-Jr> NxTitle: it won't be mined, at least
 438 2013-05-12 02:50:03 <lianj> cjd: there are 4 blocks that share the same coinbase tx. legacy mess
 439 2013-05-12 02:50:07 <denisx> cjd: if you can make sha256 collisions then the whole world has a problem
 440 2013-05-12 02:50:09 <NxTitle> Luke-Jr: ah, okay
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 442 2013-05-12 02:50:14 <SomeoneWeird> denisx, yep
 443 2013-05-12 02:50:34 <NxTitle> interesting
 444 2013-05-12 02:50:34 <denisx> oh, I'm late, I see...
 445 2013-05-12 02:51:09 <cjd> lianj: yeah, I remember when that was discovered.. one of those "I'm not sure if this is bad but I don't like it" things
 446 2013-05-12 02:51:46 <Luke-Jr> denisx: Still waiting on a resolution to the copyright issues in your contributions. This is holding up my releases… Can I just relicense these as GPLv3? A yes here will do.
 447 2013-05-12 02:52:06 <cjd> xD
 448 2013-05-12 02:52:17 <SomeoneWeird> >.<
 449 2013-05-12 02:52:27 <cjd> Luke-Jr: https://github.com/cjdelisle/fixlicense
 450 2013-05-12 02:53:10 <Luke-Jr> cjd: …?
 451 2013-05-12 02:53:16 <SomeoneWeird> lmfao
 452 2013-05-12 02:53:44 <denisx> Luke-Jr: peter decides that
 453 2013-05-12 02:54:20 <Luke-Jr> denisx: ok, thanks
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 459 2013-05-12 02:56:18 <flound1129> luke-jr_: can a generate transaction change its id?
 460 2013-05-12 02:56:26 <flound1129> and why would that happen?
 461 2013-05-12 02:56:33 <Luke-Jr> flound1129: not once it's mined
 462 2013-05-12 02:56:36 <flound1129> ok
 463 2013-05-12 02:56:40 <Luke-Jr> in fact, no transaction can change id once its mined
 464 2013-05-12 02:56:41 <flound1129> thanks
 465 2013-05-12 02:56:49 <flound1129> ok good
 466 2013-05-12 02:56:51 <Luke-Jr> short of a reorganziation
 467 2013-05-12 02:57:09 <flound1129> so I can definitely make the txid field unique in the db
 468 2013-05-12 02:57:19 <Luke-Jr> should be safe
 469 2013-05-12 02:57:30 <Luke-Jr> not guaranteed, though, unless you're certain to never spent it
 470 2013-05-12 02:57:41 <Luke-Jr> once it's spent, it's legal to reuse the txid
 471 2013-05-12 02:57:55 <Luke-Jr> but still, so improbable, I wouldn't worry about that
 472 2013-05-12 02:58:11 <flound1129> but it probably wouldn't show up as a txid on another mined block
 473 2013-05-12 02:58:14 <flound1129> or definitely wouldn't?
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 477 2013-05-12 02:58:56 <Luke-Jr> flound1129: it *cannot* until you spend it. once you spend it, it *can*, but it's much less likely than the entire universe imploding tomorrow
 478 2013-05-12 02:59:16 <cjd> flound1129: http://crypto.stackexchange.com/a/1172 this might put it in perspective
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 508 2013-05-12 03:48:08 <ngc0202> Is there any good tutorials on making raw transactions?
 509 2013-05-12 03:48:17 <ngc0202> Are*
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 671 2013-05-12 08:52:59 <Jhong> hey everyone, am I right in thinking for most merchants using bitcoind, "setaccount" is a bit of a security risk ?
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 673 2013-05-12 08:53:38 <Jhong> an attacker could listen for inbound transactions, and set the account to their own. No need to decrypt wallet
 674 2013-05-12 08:55:07 <Jhong> this is assuming the attacker already owns your web server or database -- but the whole point of double encryption is to guard agains tthis scenario
 675 2013-05-12 08:56:31 <tholenst> What is double encryption in bitcointd, and why should it protected against this scenario?
 676 2013-05-12 08:57:33 * cjd blinks -- for a moment I thought I was watching jeopardy
 677 2013-05-12 08:58:02 <tholenst> Did I win? :)
 678 2013-05-12 08:58:15 <cjd> sure, why not :)
 679 2013-05-12 08:58:36 <Jhong> @tholenst: Sorry, wallet passphrase
 680 2013-05-12 08:59:26 <Jhong> I imagine most exchanges/merchants manually type the passphrase to prevent anyone who owns their server from being able to withdraw
 681 2013-05-12 08:59:44 <cjd> well sorta
 682 2013-05-12 08:59:46 <Jhong> but the weakest link is deposits
 683 2013-05-12 08:59:59 <cjd> anyone serious in the business is using an offline cold storage wallet
 684 2013-05-12 09:00:15 <Jhong> yes sure, you would use that too
 685 2013-05-12 09:00:27 <cjd> payments go directly to it
 686 2013-05-12 09:00:42 <Jhong> but most deposits are automated right?
 687 2013-05-12 09:01:13 <cjd> getting keys from it while it remains offline is the tricky part
 688 2013-05-12 09:01:22 <Jhong> a web server communicating with bitcoind and asking for inbound transactions or account balances, and using bitcoind to tie them to users via accounts
 689 2013-05-12 09:01:41 <cjd> /nod
 690 2013-05-12 09:02:17 <cjd> could always ask bitcoind for 9000 keys and then dish them out over time while using another bitcoind to determine which of those keys has been paid
 691 2013-05-12 09:02:32 <Jhong> I guess my point is that you can't trust inbound account status reported from bitcoind any more than you can trust your own database
 692 2013-05-12 09:02:37 <cjd> but that doesn't answer your question
 693 2013-05-12 09:03:32 <sipa> Jhong: if an attacker gets access to RPC, you're screwed anyway
 694 2013-05-12 09:03:45 <Jhong> In my case I have my web servers/db server, etc -- they're VPSes. But the Bitcoind server is in my own basement, locked down etc
 695 2013-05-12 09:04:08 <Jhong> I'm thinking I should patch out setaccount
 696 2013-05-12 09:04:15 <cjd> it seems like an edge case since it doesn't allow attackers to get old money, just to intercept payments
 697 2013-05-12 09:04:19 <tholenst> yeah but what if he rewrites the program which *uses* bitcoind
 698 2013-05-12 09:04:27 <sipa> Jhong: and sendtoaddress?
 699 2013-05-12 09:04:28 <cjd> and they can do that by altering the pay-to addr on your website
 700 2013-05-12 09:04:38 <Jhong> yes that's true
 701 2013-05-12 09:04:40 <sipa> Jhong: and move?
 702 2013-05-12 09:04:49 <tholenst> i think you need to assume the server is uncorrupted anyhow
 703 2013-05-12 09:04:57 <sipa> yes
 704 2013-05-12 09:05:06 <Jhong> move is OK if you monitor transactions rather than balances
 705 2013-05-12 09:05:08 <tholenst> (what if he installs a keylogger)
 706 2013-05-12 09:05:13 <sipa> if you need remote access to bitcoind, you need a proxy to filter out commands
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 711 2013-05-12 09:10:32 <Jhong> I guess it doesn't matter -- if someone has access to the database, they can set balances at will anyway
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 719 2013-05-12 09:13:36 <ByronZED> Rippln Mobile Apps Social Gamification - http://www.rippln.by/get-started/
 720 2013-05-12 09:14:30 <coingenuity> god, stupid client
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 743 2013-05-12 10:34:35 <warren> sipa: hi.  are there currently any known drawbacks to secp256k1?
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 746 2013-05-12 10:35:40 <whiskers75> How do I get difficulty inside of GetBlockValue()
 747 2013-05-12 10:36:40 <sipa> warren: compared to?
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 749 2013-05-12 10:37:57 <warren> sipa: openssl
 750 2013-05-12 10:38:38 <sipa> warren: beside not being tested, not afaik
 751 2013-05-12 10:39:13 <warren> sipa:  I'm using it in local test builds for Fedora/RHEL for both bitcoin and litecoin.  No real tx or mining.  Seems OK so far.
 752 2013-05-12 10:39:38 <warren> testnet seems ok
 753 2013-05-12 10:40:53 <warren> sipa: I've been using it mostly as means to avoid Ubuntu.  Haven't distributed any test builds to anyone yet.  I'll wait until you think it's ready for wider testing.
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 760 2013-05-12 10:50:47 <warren> sipa: are you uncomfortable with me giving Fedora/RHEL users test builds using it?  I can lock it to testnet only at first, if you want.
 761 2013-05-12 10:51:04 <sipa> warren: yes, i'd prefer that
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 767 2013-05-12 11:10:56 <warren> Where in the code is the block size soft limit defined?  I'm looking at the defaults that changed over time.
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 783 2013-05-12 11:24:31 <ghash> guys was it a bad idea to downlod the blockchain with 0.8.2?
 784 2013-05-12 11:24:43 <ghash> I'm getting a lot of orphan blocks I see in debug.log
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 786 2013-05-12 11:27:12 <sipa> known problem, but not worse than other versions
 787 2013-05-12 11:28:22 <Luke-Jr> ghash: it'll recover on its own
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 789 2013-05-12 11:36:40 <ghash> ok, thx
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 802 2013-05-12 11:56:56 <MoALTz> how expensive (in runtime) is the signature algorithm (ECDSA) compared to any of the other cryptographic operations?
 803 2013-05-12 11:57:42 <sipa> Very.
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 806 2013-05-12 11:59:34 <sipa> In the time you do one signature verification, you can calculate ~1000 double-SHA256 hashes
 807 2013-05-12 11:59:50 <edcba> why the question ?
 808 2013-05-12 11:59:57 <sipa> (order of magnitude, i may be a factor N off)
 809 2013-05-12 12:02:03 <MoALTz> edcba: looking at blockchain designs and seeing if it's worth using something other than a signature algorithm (not possible for secure transactions that fully done on a single block, but might be possible with pre-commitment over more than one block)
 810 2013-05-12 12:02:39 <sipa> other than a signature algorithm? what else would you use?
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 812 2013-05-12 12:04:22 <MoALTz> sipa: under something like p2sh the sender commits the receiver to have a script with a certain hash. if the receiver commits what their transaction will look like on one block (using a hash), and then 6+ blocks down reveals the contents of the block then it's unlikely that someone could reverse it
 813 2013-05-12 12:04:59 <MoALTz> many downsides. i'll look at it more
 814 2013-05-12 12:05:44 <sipa> like 'any miner can trivially steal any output being spent' ?
 815 2013-05-12 12:05:48 <MoALTz> yes
 816 2013-05-12 12:05:56 <MoALTz> erm that's what this scheme would avoid
 817 2013-05-12 12:06:18 <MoALTz> if you don't do precommitment nor a signature then stealing is easy
 818 2013-05-12 12:06:58 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 819 2013-05-12 12:08:13 <MoALTz> but if you don't use a signature then you must commit the blockchain to accepting only your transaction via a precommitment ("my transactiion will have hash H"). the big downside is that then transactions take an hour or more (you have to wait until it's computationally infesible to redo the blocks since the precommitment). and it opens up the possiblity of spamming the blockchains with useless hashes (precommitments that a
 820 2013-05-12 12:08:13 <MoALTz> re never fulfilled)
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 823 2013-05-12 12:10:24 <sipa> i don't think it's possible to know the hash of the spending transaction in advance
 824 2013-05-12 12:10:45 <sipa> as the spending transaction contains the hash of the one being spent
 825 2013-05-12 12:10:56 <sipa> so you get a dependency loop in trying to find the hashes
 826 2013-05-12 12:11:35 <sipa> ah, you don't mean to have the hash of the spending transaction in the creating transaction; right
 827 2013-05-12 12:11:46 <sipa> that'd be a very different structure from what we have now, though...
 828 2013-05-12 12:11:54 <sipa> as you need a way to put non-transaction in the chain
 829 2013-05-12 12:13:03 <rdponticelli> It looks like there's some bug on the qt changes in 0.8.2rc1...
 830 2013-05-12 12:13:15 <sipa> rdponticelli: elaborate (or post an issue)
 831 2013-05-12 12:13:48 <rdponticelli> On a small environment on a vm, the rc never gets to fill the qt windows...
 832 2013-05-12 12:13:57 <rdponticelli> 0.8.1 works fine
 833 2013-05-12 12:14:10 one_zero has quit ()
 834 2013-05-12 12:14:14 <rdponticelli> I'm trying to find more...
 835 2013-05-12 12:14:18 lolcookie has joined
 836 2013-05-12 12:14:38 <rdponticelli> Oh, and you can't stop it
 837 2013-05-12 12:14:48 <sipa> anything in debug.log?
 838 2013-05-12 12:15:02 <rdponticelli> getinfo works, asking to stop on rpc works, but it never stops
 839 2013-05-12 12:15:22 <rdponticelli> I'm looking
 840 2013-05-12 12:16:10 <rdponticelli> bitcoind 0.8.2rc1 also works fine
 841 2013-05-12 12:16:33 <sipa> so RPC is functional, it's just the GUI that looks stuck?
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 844 2013-05-12 12:18:56 <rdponticelli> Yes, rpc works
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 846 2013-05-12 12:19:17 <rdponticelli> The gui never finishes starting
 847 2013-05-12 12:19:23 <sipa> file a bug, please
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 849 2013-05-12 12:19:28 <rdponticelli> debug.log looks fine
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 851 2013-05-12 12:19:34 <rdponticelli> Yeah, I'll do
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 875 2013-05-12 13:11:11 <ghash> what can I do if the bitcoind blockchain download is stuck?
 876 2013-05-12 13:11:45 <ghash> wait..this evolved into another question
 877 2013-05-12 13:11:56 <ghash> why did bitcoind crash? debug.log doesnt give any output regarding that
 878 2013-05-12 13:16:08 <ezdiy> gdb ./bitcoind
 879 2013-05-12 13:16:09 <ezdiy> r
 880 2013-05-12 13:16:10 <ezdiy> b
 881 2013-05-12 13:16:11 <ezdiy> :)
 882 2013-05-12 13:16:13 <ezdiy> and pastebin
 883 2013-05-12 13:16:29 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
 884 2013-05-12 13:18:38 <ghash> wut
 885 2013-05-12 13:18:42 <ghash> I've started it again
 886 2013-05-12 13:18:45 <ghash> and its running fine
 887 2013-05-12 13:18:47 <ghash> isnt there any log?
 888 2013-05-12 13:18:54 <sipa> yes, debug.log
 889 2013-05-12 13:18:56 <tumak> not for segfaults
 890 2013-05-12 13:19:08 <sipa> the log may give a hint about what happened
 891 2013-05-12 13:19:22 <ghash> well the last line was about a received block
 892 2013-05-12 13:19:24 <ghash> that was all
 893 2013-05-12 13:19:28 <ezdiy> never seen bitcoind segfault
 894 2013-05-12 13:19:32 <ezdiy> most likely faulty hw
 895 2013-05-12 13:19:37 <ghash> uh?
 896 2013-05-12 13:19:46 <ghash> its running on a vps from bitvps.com
 897 2013-05-12 13:19:49 <ezdiy> as bitcoind can be pretty resource intensive thus likely to catch bitflip bugs
 898 2013-05-12 13:19:52 <ezdiy> lol vps
 899 2013-05-12 13:20:03 <ezdiy> most likely oom kill
 900 2013-05-12 13:20:04 <ezdiy> dmesg
 901 2013-05-12 13:20:09 <ghash> https://www.bitvps.com/kvm-vps > KVM 4
 902 2013-05-12 13:20:14 <ghash> that spec not enough?
 903 2013-05-12 13:20:28 <ezdiy> i'm surprised it even runs in kvm
 904 2013-05-12 13:20:35 <ghash> lol
 905 2013-05-12 13:20:39 <ezdiy> please use xen, or at most openvz instances
 906 2013-05-12 13:21:06 <ghash> ok I'm pretty new to all this stuff
 907 2013-05-12 13:21:17 <ezdiy> you get what you pay for
 908 2013-05-12 13:21:33 <ezdiy> uh, $25
 909 2013-05-12 13:21:43 <ezdiy> so overpriced lol
 910 2013-05-12 13:22:07 <ezdiy> ghash: 128M vps is worth like $5-$10 tops
 911 2013-05-12 13:22:14 <ghash> yea, so, if I get the dedicated ("starter"), 2x 3.4ghz, 8gb ram, is that enough?
 912 2013-05-12 13:22:19 <ezdiy> nah
 913 2013-05-12 13:22:24 <ezdiy> at least 1gb memory
 914 2013-05-12 13:22:26 <ezdiy> no overcommit
 915 2013-05-12 13:22:37 <ezdiy> didnt realize bitvps is such a ripoff :(
 916 2013-05-12 13:22:42 <ghash> :|
 917 2013-05-12 13:22:57 <ghash> so, the OpenVZ 3 (2cores, 1gb ram) is enough?
 918 2013-05-12 13:23:07 <ezdiy> yup, that should be fair for bitcoind
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 921 2013-05-12 13:23:29 <ezdiy> maybe 512m but thats kinda pushing it
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 924 2013-05-12 13:24:09 <sipa> 512 is maybe enough on 32-bit and if not serving many connections
 925 2013-05-12 13:24:10 <ezdiy> oh, its quarterly price
 926 2013-05-12 13:24:13 <ezdiy> thats fine then
 927 2013-05-12 13:24:19 <sipa> otherwise i'd go for at least 1024
 928 2013-05-12 13:24:22 <ezdiy> yep
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 930 2013-05-12 13:24:58 <ghash> okay, thank you guys, I'll take care of that
 931 2013-05-12 13:25:10 <ghash> is there any way of going around the blockchain download?
 932 2013-05-12 13:25:15 <ezdiy> yeah
 933 2013-05-12 13:25:17 <ezdiy> just scp it there
 934 2013-05-12 13:25:31 <ezdiy> torrenting on a vps is excercise in pain if there are bw quotas
 935 2013-05-12 13:25:41 <ghash> yea... you mean I'll connect via SCP onto the server and upload the blockchain?
 936 2013-05-12 13:25:48 <ezdiy> yup
 937 2013-05-12 13:26:00 <ezdiy> assuming you have a place to upload from
 938 2013-05-12 13:26:08 <ghash> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/blockchain/
 939 2013-05-12 13:26:20 <ghash> couldnt I just get the 170000.zip and extract it?
 940 2013-05-12 13:26:47 <ezdiy> look at the date
 941 2013-05-12 13:26:52 <ezdiy> blockchain is 6gb now
 942 2013-05-12 13:27:14 <ezdiy> ghash: if you have decent bw quota, just torrent it on vps
 943 2013-05-12 13:27:26 <ezdiy> dunno how bitvps handles this
 944 2013-05-12 13:27:34 <ezdiy> but incoming data shouldnt be counted
 945 2013-05-12 13:27:45 <ezdiy> the torrent is very well seeded so it'll be probably ok
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 947 2013-05-12 13:29:46 <ghash> okay I'll if I am capable of setting up torrent at the openVZ etc...
 948 2013-05-12 13:29:49 <ghash> see*
 949 2013-05-12 13:29:55 <ghash> thanks so far!
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 951 2013-05-12 13:30:18 <ezdiy> ghash: avoid kvm next time, there are some specific uses for it but usually its not worth it :(
 952 2013-05-12 13:30:35 <ghash> okay thx
 953 2013-05-12 13:30:40 <ghash> for me it just sounded fancier
 954 2013-05-12 13:30:41 <ghash> :D
 955 2013-05-12 13:30:50 <Belxjander> ezdiy: KVM is only really useful if you virtualize locally (as in use a VM on the same machine)
 956 2013-05-12 13:31:00 <Belxjander> otherwise I wouldn't really rely on it
 957 2013-05-12 13:31:07 <ezdiy> Belxjander: ack
 958 2013-05-12 13:31:17 <ezdiy> qemu gdb stub ftw
 959 2013-05-12 13:31:21 <ezdiy> other than that, its useless
 960 2013-05-12 13:31:25 <Belxjander> qemu-kvm ?
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 962 2013-05-12 13:31:35 <ezdiy> kvm is qemu :)
 963 2013-05-12 13:31:47 <ezdiy> kvm is just vt-d acceleration for it
 964 2013-05-12 13:31:50 <Belxjander> ezdiy: not exactly... kvm is a support module for virtualization within the linux kernel
 965 2013-05-12 13:31:58 <Belxjander> qemu is just one VM toolkit that makes use of it
 966 2013-05-12 13:32:00 <ezdiy> as i said, vt-x/vt-d acceleration
 967 2013-05-12 13:32:05 <Belxjander> VirtualBox also uses the kvm module when present
 968 2013-05-12 13:32:22 <ezdiy> but most of it is not necessary, or even hindering for debugging
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1118 2013-05-12 15:49:49 <nsh> Integer factorization and Discrete Logarithm problem are neither in P nor NP-complete
1119 2013-05-12 15:49:54 <nsh> http://arxiv.org/abs/1207.2171
1120 2013-05-12 15:50:18 <nsh> (Later versions of this paper carry the title "Relationship between circuit complexity and symmetry". The paper shows that by interpreting a Boolean circuit as a graph, the small number of graph automorphisms and the large number of subgraph automorphisms in the circuit establishes the exponential circuit lower bound for NP-complete problems. As this strategy violates the largeness condition in Natural proof, this result shows that P!=NP without any contradi
1121 2013-05-12 15:50:19 <nsh> ctions to the existence of pseudorandom functions. )
1122 2013-05-12 15:50:41 * nsh frowns
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1205 2013-05-12 16:16:44 <Corndawg> Hypothetically:  Is it possible to make fork off Bitcoin code to make a curency that only allows certain miners to get money?  Like miners that had a certain priv key... or sub key derived from that priv key?
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1209 2013-05-12 16:17:41 <Corndawg> so if a Govt wanted to centralize a cryptocurrency they could do that (scary thought I know)?  And they would then control the mining supply
1210 2013-05-12 16:18:13 <Corndawg> but still get the benefits of nearly impossible to counterfit
1211 2013-05-12 16:18:56 <BlueMatt> yes, in fact a few altcoins do something along those lines
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1216 2013-05-12 16:27:59 <Corndawg> that's prob whats going ot happen in a few years then... if the Euro breaks up some Scandanavian country will start that
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1218 2013-05-12 16:28:44 <Corndawg> not long before all countries move to that... too tempting to take away cash (truely untraceable transactions + easy counterfiting)
1219 2013-05-12 16:28:55 <Corndawg> scary
1220 2013-05-12 16:31:19 <franl> Why would a nation state need the "crypto" part of cryptocurrency if all transactions pass through a central state-operated clearinghouse?
1221 2013-05-12 16:31:43 <MoALTz> speaking of new currencies for countries, i find it somewhat ironic that low generation times (e.g. chncoin) would actually fix generation to a geographic region of high connectivity and high hash rate. reason: by the time a block has reached a miner on the other side of the world a new block will have likely been found
1222 2013-05-12 16:32:24 <MoALTz> metastable i mean - there is a chance that it would flip between dense computational+connective regions
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1224 2013-05-12 16:32:43 <marijnfs> hello, im trying to implement the script system in golang
1225 2013-05-12 16:32:50 <marijnfs> where can i find example scripts to test it on?
1226 2013-05-12 16:34:50 <franl> marijnfs, just thought of this: extract real scripts from the blockchain.
1227 2013-05-12 16:35:02 <michagogo> Look up [[Script]] on the wiki
1228 2013-05-12 16:35:41 <franl> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
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1230 2013-05-12 16:35:44 <marijnfs> not a bad idea;)
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1235 2013-05-12 16:40:14 <BlueMatt> Corndawg: heh, yea...keep dreaming...or something
1236 2013-05-12 16:40:47 <BlueMatt> marijnfs: at a bare minimum, the data-driven test-cases in bitcoind and all of the testnet scripts should be run
1237 2013-05-12 16:41:16 <franl> Is the block height of the next re-target known in advance of the re-target?
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1240 2013-05-12 16:41:35 <michagogo> Yes
1241 2013-05-12 16:41:38 <michagogo> Every 2016 blocks
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1243 2013-05-12 16:42:50 <franl> michagogo, thx
1244 2013-05-12 16:44:58 <BlueMatt> Corndawg: note that both the data-driven script and data-driven tx tests are important for testing script processing
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1247 2013-05-12 16:46:42 <BlueMatt> ehh, marijnfs ^
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1252 2013-05-12 16:49:08 <franl> When it's time to re-target, is the computation of the new target determined entirely from the 2016 most recent blocks in the blockchain?
1253 2013-05-12 16:50:01 <ThomasV> franl: and the previous difficulty
1254 2013-05-12 16:50:11 <franl> ThomasV, ah, yes.  Thx.
1255 2013-05-12 16:53:16 <franl> So if, due to network latency, different miners each believe they've published the 2016th block at the current difficulty, they will computer different values for the next target.  That's fixed once they all see the consensus on the ture 2016th block, right?
1256 2013-05-12 16:53:30 <franl> *compute
1257 2013-05-12 16:54:19 <franl> I'm trying the understand the boundary conditions that exist at re-target time.
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1259 2013-05-12 16:58:09 <BlueMatt> franl: yes
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1263 2013-05-12 16:58:29 <BlueMatt> while you're at it...wanna write test-cases to exercise those conditions?
1264 2013-05-12 16:59:00 <nimdAHK_> one boundary is the 3-hour limit
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1266 2013-05-12 16:59:07 <nimdAHK_> the network has to be synced within 3 hours
1267 2013-05-12 16:59:42 <nimdAHK_> you'll see "out of order" blocks in the chain, but never more than 3 hours apart
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1270 2013-05-12 17:00:45 <BlueMatt> what?
1271 2013-05-12 17:01:02 <franl> nimdAHK_, where's that 3 hour value come from?  Do miners do something every 18 block to cause that synchronization to happen?
1272 2013-05-12 17:01:19 <nimdAHK_> no
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1275 2013-05-12 17:01:32 <nimdAHK_> but the node rejects blocks that are too out of sync
1276 2013-05-12 17:01:46 <nimdAHK_> let me find the relevant source
1277 2013-05-12 17:01:50 <franl> nimdAHK_, ok.  Thx.
1278 2013-05-12 17:02:03 <michagogo> nimdAHK_: Erm, but that would mean that if there were the equivalent of a netsplit for over 3 hours, we'd have a fork
1279 2013-05-12 17:02:10 <BlueMatt> as someone who's been developing bitcoin for years, Im very interested to know where this 3 hour limit comes from...
1280 2013-05-12 17:02:11 <nimdAHK_> michagogo: true
1281 2013-05-12 17:02:25 <michagogo> Personally I find that unlikely
1282 2013-05-12 17:02:31 <michagogo> Are you able to back it up?
1283 2013-05-12 17:02:31 <nimdAHK_> BlueMatt: as someone who has not been developing bitcoin, I'm open to being wrong
1284 2013-05-12 17:02:37 <franl> It seems to be a code-enforced consensus, not a crypto-enforced one.
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1286 2013-05-12 17:02:40 <nimdAHK_> I'm looking in the source right now
1287 2013-05-12 17:02:44 <nimdAHK_> just give me a moment
1288 2013-05-12 17:02:46 * BlueMatt has been wrong before, but Ive never heard of any 3-hour limit
1289 2013-05-12 17:02:55 * nimdAHK_ is almost always wrong
1290 2013-05-12 17:03:03 <franl> BlueMatt, me too.  It's always "longest blockchain wins".
1291 2013-05-12 17:03:07 <BlueMatt> there is the 2-hour offset limit, but its really not quite what you're describing
1292 2013-05-12 17:03:15 <vrs> nsh: found http://www.win.tue.nl/~gwoegi/P-versus-NP.htm after some cursory research
1293 2013-05-12 17:03:46 <BlueMatt> (nodes reject blocks which have timestamps >2 hours in the future when they hear of the blocks)
1294 2013-05-12 17:04:02 <nimdAHK_> hrm
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1296 2013-05-12 17:04:43 <BlueMatt> also, there is no way to get blocks "out of order" since each blocks has the previous block in its header...
1297 2013-05-12 17:04:51 <franl> nimdAHK_, even if it's in the _code_ of every miner, no crypto algorithm enforces it, right?
1298 2013-05-12 17:05:03 <BlueMatt> franl: ehhh...thats equivalent
1299 2013-05-12 17:05:13 <nsh> vrs, looking, thanks
1300 2013-05-12 17:05:13 <nimdAHK_> BlueMatt: that's not what I meant, exactly
1301 2013-05-12 17:05:23 <franl> BlueMatt, until a majority of miners start doing it differently.
1302 2013-05-12 17:05:31 <nimdAHK_> I can show you two blocks where the previous one has the later timestamp
1303 2013-05-12 17:05:47 <BlueMatt> nimdAHK_: ahh, yes well there is no rule on consecutive timestamps
1304 2013-05-12 17:05:59 <nimdAHK_> that is what I meant
1305 2013-05-12 17:06:11 <franl> Right, the "previous block hash" is what creates the total ordering.
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1307 2013-05-12 17:06:28 <nimdAHK_> ok, I'm probably wrong about the 3 hours, but give me a moment
1308 2013-05-12 17:06:45 <BlueMatt> franl: no, if some miners start doing it differently, they can get forked off the chain because they are arbitrarily redefining their own network rules
1309 2013-05-12 17:07:15 <BlueMatt> there are /very/ few rules which miners could chose to change or tweak on their own
1310 2013-05-12 17:07:18 <franl> BlueMatt, yes.  And they have the majority hashpower, their rules win because they create the longest blockchain.
1311 2013-05-12 17:07:22 <BlueMatt> no
1312 2013-05-12 17:07:33 <nimdAHK_> I'm with BlueMatt on this one
1313 2013-05-12 17:07:37 <BlueMatt> the vast, vast majority of rules are enforced by /everyone/ not just miners
1314 2013-05-12 17:07:54 <nimdAHK_> miners merely choose the transaction ordering
1315 2013-05-12 17:07:57 <BlueMatt> if a miner makes a block that is invalid, everyone else just ignores it, doesnt matter if it has a vaild hash or not
1316 2013-05-12 17:07:59 <nimdAHK_> and inclusion
1317 2013-05-12 17:08:05 <franl> How does a non-miner enforce anything about the blockchain?
1318 2013-05-12 17:08:14 <BlueMatt> it ignores blocks which are invalid
1319 2013-05-12 17:08:19 <michagogo> franl: By ignoring anything that doesn't meet the rules it chooses to follow
1320 2013-05-12 17:08:33 <BlueMatt> doesnt matter if it has an incorrect hash or its transactions arent valid, its the same invalid
1321 2013-05-12 17:09:02 <BlueMatt> (note that some clients, ie SPV clients, dont actually do very much verification, but those are still the vast minority on the network)
1322 2013-05-12 17:09:05 highPriestLOL is now known as zz_highPriestLOL
1323 2013-05-12 17:09:15 <franl> BlueMatt, sure, where "invalid" == "mathematically unacceptable".  But if it breaks some non-crypto-enforced concept of validity, then that's just a network-wide agreement, which can change if the majority decides.
1324 2013-05-12 17:09:24 <nimdAHK_> nope
1325 2013-05-12 17:09:28 <michagogo> franl: Even if 90% of hashpower changes the rules, unless users also change *their* rules they'll ignore the 90%
1326 2013-05-12 17:10:05 <franl> michagogo, ok, I see that.  Disenfranchising the majority of clients causes you to be rejected.
1327 2013-05-12 17:10:14 <michagogo> franl: Yeah
1328 2013-05-12 17:10:17 <BlueMatt> Im not sure what you mean by crypto-enforced, crypto is just a program, as are all the other block validity rules
1329 2013-05-12 17:10:19 <nimdAHK_> franl: see page 3 of bitcoin.pdf
1330 2013-05-12 17:11:00 <nimdAHK_> non-mining nodes can reject blocks
1331 2013-05-12 17:11:50 Guest25262 is now known as amiller
1332 2013-05-12 17:11:53 <franl> BlueMatt, hmm.  I see now that it all comes down to the code.  Code that deviates from the agreed algorithms (crypto or not), ends up marginalized and unable to participate in the shared consensus that is the accepted blockchain.
1333 2013-05-12 17:11:59 amiller has quit (Changing host)
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1335 2013-05-12 17:12:08 <BlueMatt> franl: exactly
1336 2013-05-12 17:12:34 <BlueMatt> now to confuse you more, there are some things that can be changed by majority-network-consensus (not miners)
1337 2013-05-12 17:12:39 <BlueMatt> ie soft-fork things
1338 2013-05-12 17:12:47 <BlueMatt> realistically, those are changed at ie 90% consensus
1339 2013-05-12 17:12:47 <franl> Like how the March 2013 force was resolved?
1340 2013-05-12 17:12:51 <franl> *fork
1341 2013-05-12 17:13:00 <michagogo> franl: No, that was by getting miners to downgrade
1342 2013-05-12 17:13:00 <BlueMatt> see: the block v2 height-in-coinbase stuff
1343 2013-05-12 17:13:32 <franl> OK, I missed your "not miners" bit.
1344 2013-05-12 17:14:17 <franl> So where do the majority of miner and client developers communicate with each other about such things?  Is there a mailing list?
1345 2013-05-12 17:14:23 <BlueMatt> well, it requires miner participation and is calculated as miner-majority, but its enforced by the network
1346 2013-05-12 17:14:38 <BlueMatt> here/Bitcoin-Development ml
1347 2013-05-12 17:14:48 vigilyn3 has joined
1348 2013-05-12 17:14:51 <franl> Thx
1349 2013-05-12 17:14:51 vigilyn2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1350 2013-05-12 17:14:55 <michagogo> franl: In the case of the March hardfork, IIRC, gavin sent out a network alert
1351 2013-05-12 17:14:57 daktak_ has joined
1352 2013-05-12 17:15:33 <BlueMatt> that, among other things
1353 2013-05-12 17:15:41 daktak has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1354 2013-05-12 17:15:43 <BlueMatt> ie emails to relevant parties
1355 2013-05-12 17:16:32 <nimdAHK_> especially pools
1356 2013-05-12 17:16:40 <BlueMatt> yes
1357 2013-05-12 17:17:08 backupgribble has joined
1358 2013-05-12 17:17:20 <BlueMatt> wat?
1359 2013-05-12 17:18:30 <nimdAHK_> the March fork was a software disagreement due to database problems. If miners hadn't downgraded, everyone else would have needed to upgrade.
1360 2013-05-12 17:18:36 <nimdAHK_> lol, backup gribble
1361 2013-05-12 17:18:52 nimdAHK_ is now known as gribble
1362 2013-05-12 17:18:57 gribble is now known as nimdAHK
1363 2013-05-12 17:19:07 <BlueMatt> yea, sorry I was wat'ing at gribble, not the marchfork
1364 2013-05-12 17:19:23 fiat500 has joined
1365 2013-05-12 17:19:26 <nimdAHK> what happened to normal gribble?
1366 2013-05-12 17:19:45 <nimdAHK> seems rather difficult to DoS an IRC bot
1367 2013-05-12 17:20:02 <BlueMatt> not really
1368 2013-05-12 17:20:02 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1369 2013-05-12 17:20:23 <nimdAHK> you'd have to get around the network's own rate limiting
1370 2013-05-12 17:20:42 <nimdAHK> so it would need to be very asymetrical
1371 2013-05-12 17:20:43 sagax__ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1372 2013-05-12 17:20:46 <BlueMatt> well, ok, have to DDoS, not DoS
1373 2013-05-12 17:21:23 sagax__ has joined
1374 2013-05-12 17:21:32 <nimdAHK> I wonder what the most intensive operation gribble performs is
1375 2013-05-12 17:23:13 <fiat500> i thought the ddos targeted the host the bot was on directly
1376 2013-05-12 17:23:25 <BlueMatt> well, you can do that too
1377 2013-05-12 17:23:41 <Optimo> if I was an evil arbitrager I would definitely prey on newbs to this room
1378 2013-05-12 17:23:42 <fiat500> cuz the webserver is down too
1379 2013-05-12 17:23:52 <fiat500> Optimo: wrong room
1380 2013-05-12 17:23:57 <Optimo> oh shit
1381 2013-05-12 17:24:01 <Optimo> sorry
1382 2013-05-12 17:24:20 tgs3_ is now known as tgs3
1383 2013-05-12 17:24:32 <Optimo> I meant -otc of course. the IQ in this room tends to be higher
1384 2013-05-12 17:24:38 <fiat500> lol
1385 2013-05-12 17:24:45 <fiat500> not anymore now that  im here
1386 2013-05-12 17:25:15 <Optimo> a word of warning, probably everywhere but inside your head, that's a girl's car
1387 2013-05-12 17:25:45 tgs3 is now known as tgs3_
1388 2013-05-12 17:25:51 <fiat500> Optimo: the fiat is a reference to the currency term, not the vehicle make
1389 2013-05-12 17:25:51 tgs3_ is now known as tgs3
1390 2013-05-12 17:26:02 <nimdAHK> fiat500: it would make sense to separate the web interface and the bot
1391 2013-05-12 17:26:14 <Optimo> fiat500: you're not clever
1392 2013-05-12 17:26:20 <nimdAHK> then a hostmask on the bot would make even a DDoS tricky
1393 2013-05-12 17:26:30 <diki> wtf
1394 2013-05-12 17:26:40 <diki> Bitcoin-Qt using over 90% of my CPU?
1395 2013-05-12 17:26:44 djoot_ is now known as djoot
1396 2013-05-12 17:26:45 <fiat500> nimdAHK: is it really that critical? anyway i dont run these things, you should ask OneFixt :)
1397 2013-05-12 17:26:52 <BlueMatt> diki: importing blocks?
1398 2013-05-12 17:26:57 <diki> syncing, yes
1399 2013-05-12 17:27:04 <nimdAHK> fiat500: gribble runs the whole bitcoin-otc
1400 2013-05-12 17:27:04 <diki> but it's never used that much of my CPU resources
1401 2013-05-12 17:27:08 <BlueMatt> ok...then why would it not use 90% cpu
1402 2013-05-12 17:27:11  has quit (Clown|!Clown@unaffiliated/clown/x-0272709|Remote host closed the connection)
1403 2013-05-12 17:27:22 <OneFixt> fiat500: nanotube runs gribble
1404 2013-05-12 17:27:23  has joined
1405 2013-05-12 17:27:23  has quit (Clown|!~clown@static-87-79-93-140.netcologne.de|Changing host)
1406 2013-05-12 17:27:23  has joined
1407 2013-05-12 17:27:30 <fiat500> my bad
1408 2013-05-12 17:27:34 <OneFixt> np
1409 2013-05-12 17:27:46 <OneFixt> ;;botsnack
1410 2013-05-12 17:27:46 <backupgribble> Forget the snack, just send me some bitcoins at 1MgD6rah5zUgEGYZnNmdpnXMaDR3itKYzU :)
1411 2013-05-12 17:27:55 <OneFixt> maybe if gribble is fed well he'll stay up more? =)
1412 2013-05-12 17:27:55 porquilho_ is now known as porquilho
1413 2013-05-12 17:28:04 <fiat500> shakedown
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1415 2013-05-12 17:32:26 devurandom has joined
1416 2013-05-12 17:32:30 <devurandom> Hello!
1417 2013-05-12 17:32:34 <BlueMatt> hi
1418 2013-05-12 17:33:04 <franl> hi devurandom.  How's your entropy?
1419 2013-05-12 17:33:13 <devurandom> Quite good today, thanks!
1420 2013-05-12 17:33:42 zz_highPriestLOL is now known as highPriestLOL
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1424 2013-05-12 17:35:00 <devurandom> Do you have a tip how to design the get-template thread for GBT miner in Python 3.2? Once I had a needtmpl event, which the make-work thread set when it found that the current template would last less than 10s. The get-template thread would then wakeup, fetch a template and stuff it into the queue so it was ready when make-work needs it. But that created quite a few more requests for templates than necessary, due to the inherent race
1425 2013-05-12 17:35:00 <devurandom> condition. So I went to a 1 element queue, which get-template tries to fill the whole time (timeouting after expires/4, so the template stays fresh). But I fear that might waste more bw than necessary.
1426 2013-05-12 17:36:24 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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1429 2013-05-12 17:39:27 <franl> I don't know that code, so I can't help, but ... a miner written in Python?  Is the hashing code also Python?
1430 2013-05-12 17:40:55 <devurandom> No, it just produces work for stuff running on dedicated hardware.
1431 2013-05-12 17:41:01 <franl> Ah
1432 2013-05-12 17:42:01 Julius129 has joined
1433 2013-05-12 17:45:12 <sharktopuz> !seen foqmrctz
1434 2013-05-12 17:45:12 <backupgribble> I have not seen foqmrctz.
1435 2013-05-12 17:47:21 Eremes has joined
1436 2013-05-12 17:47:31 <Eremes> guys is it possible to send 100 BTC without fees ?
1437 2013-05-12 17:48:03 <BlueMatt> umm...yes?
1438 2013-05-12 17:48:11 <BlueMatt> but seriously, why are you asking this on #bitcoin-dev ?
1439 2013-05-12 17:48:21 <Julius129> you can test it by sending the 100 BTC to me
1440 2013-05-12 17:49:29 <Eremes> BlueMatt: mind asking where should i ask then ?
1441 2013-05-12 17:49:39 <BlueMatt> #bitcoin
1442 2013-05-12 17:50:03 <Eremes> BlueMatt: ok
1443 2013-05-12 17:50:09 Eremes has left ()
1444 2013-05-12 17:51:35 CaptainBlaze has joined
1445 2013-05-12 17:52:10 <franl> Anyone who has 100 BTC to send shouldn't be worried about the fee. :)
1446 2013-05-12 17:52:53 <franl> Deep pockets and short arms.
1447 2013-05-12 17:54:06 rdymac has joined
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1454 2013-05-12 18:02:29 <k9quaint> wow, BlueMatt has the touch
1455 2013-05-12 18:03:00 <BlueMatt> ?
1456 2013-05-12 18:03:47 <k9quaint> you made a person leave bitcoin-dev just by asking nicely
1457 2013-05-12 18:04:45 <BlueMatt> most people arent trying to be a dick by coming here for support, they just read somewhere that #bitcoin-dev will answer questions and come here...
1458 2013-05-12 18:06:22 rdymac has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1465 2013-05-12 18:16:01 <nimdAHK> why do people not read the topic?
1466 2013-05-12 18:16:24 <sipa> because it requires effort
1467 2013-05-12 18:16:51 <nimdAHK> so does joining the channel :(
1468 2013-05-12 18:17:34 ThomasV_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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1477 2013-05-12 18:29:51 nimdAHK is now known as nimdAHK_
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1480 2013-05-12 18:30:30 <The_Fly> lol
1481 2013-05-12 18:31:50 ralphtheninja has joined
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1483 2013-05-12 18:32:54 ralphtheninja has joined
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1493 2013-05-12 18:42:35 <grau> sipa: changed bop BIP32 to additive. It is self consistent, but do you have any test vectors?
1494 2013-05-12 18:44:15 icellan has joined
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1500 2013-05-12 18:46:30 ardeay_ has joined
1501 2013-05-12 18:46:47 <ardeay_> ;;ticker
1502 2013-05-12 18:46:49 <backupgribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 114.49000, Best ask: 115.72741, Bid-ask spread: 1.23741, Last trade: 115.72420, 24 hour volume: 25944.82101161, 24 hour low: 112.40000, 24 hour high: 117.47000, 24 hour vwap: 114.49139
1503 2013-05-12 18:47:42 DBordello has joined
1504 2013-05-12 18:48:19 <sipa> grau: great, i don't have any right now, but i intend to 'finalize' bip32 by the conference, and publish test vectors then
1505 2013-05-12 18:49:44 Tritonio_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1506 2013-05-12 18:49:44 <grau> sipa: you mean finalize before or on the conference?
1507 2013-05-12 18:50:04 dwon has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1508 2013-05-12 18:50:28 normanrichards has joined
1509 2013-05-12 18:50:37 <grau> I have built this into the product. It would be really handy to have some test vectors in beforehand.
1510 2013-05-12 18:51:28 <sipa> i'll try to have vectors before, but no promises
1511 2013-05-12 18:52:47 <grau> Worse case I will have a rebook function later.
1512 2013-05-12 18:52:49 TheLordOfTime has joined
1513 2013-05-12 18:52:58 <TheLordOfTime> when's the next release of bitcoin-qt
1514 2013-05-12 18:53:07 <TheLordOfTime> and how "absolutely required" is it (I have 0.8.1)
1515 2013-05-12 18:53:15 <sipa> 0.8.1 is fine
1516 2013-05-12 18:53:30 <sipa> 0.8.2rc1 is just made available, feel free to test if you like
1517 2013-05-12 18:53:51 <TheLordOfTime> 0.8.2-rc1 still pulls the entire set of blocks since the dawn of time, right?
1518 2013-05-12 18:53:54 <CaptainBlaze> hey guys, thought this might be a question for bitcoin-dev, is there anyway the processing power used to hash and verify the block chain could be shared out to help "good" causes?
1519 2013-05-12 18:53:59 <TheLordOfTime> ... damn it, I keep using debian-style version strings!
1520 2013-05-12 18:53:59 <CaptainBlaze> for example seti
1521 2013-05-12 18:54:02 * TheLordOfTime facedesks
1522 2013-05-12 18:54:10 n5 has joined
1523 2013-05-12 18:54:16 <sipa> TheLordOfTime: it's harder than it looks
1524 2013-05-12 18:54:21 <sipa> eh, CaptainBlaze
1525 2013-05-12 18:54:25 <sipa> TheLordOfTime: yes
1526 2013-05-12 18:54:41 <TheLordOfTime> sipa, yeah, i'll test some other time, i don't want to risk my active wallets :P
1527 2013-05-12 18:54:51 <sipa> of course
1528 2013-05-12 18:54:57 <michagogo> TheLordOfTime: Just `cp wallet.dat wallet.dat.bak`
1529 2013-05-12 18:55:00 <CaptainBlaze> erm not sure how to break down what i am trying to say.
1530 2013-05-12 18:55:06 <TheLordOfTime> michagogo, you assume linux.
1531 2013-05-12 18:55:12 <TheLordOfTime> michagogo, 'tis windows the bitcoin wallet's on
1532 2013-05-12 18:55:13 <michagogo> Or, `mv wallet.dat wallet.dat.bak` or equivalent
1533 2013-05-12 18:55:14 <TheLordOfTime> and without ssh.
1534 2013-05-12 18:55:25 <michagogo> TheLordOfTime: You get my point
1535 2013-05-12 18:55:30 <michagogo> Make a backup copy
1536 2013-05-12 18:55:30 * TheLordOfTime has to remote-desktop in after jumping through a couple VPNs.
1537 2013-05-12 18:55:39 <TheLordOfTime> michagogo, true, i plan to tonight
1538 2013-05-12 18:55:41 <TheLordOfTime> :)
1539 2013-05-12 18:55:53 <sipa> CaptainBlaze: it's perfectly clear what you mean (i think), and you're far from the first person to suggest it
1540 2013-05-12 18:56:05 <sipa> but the answer is that it's far harder than it looks
1541 2013-05-12 18:56:10 <CaptainBlaze> sipa, ah ok, is there a forum discussion on it somewhere?
1542 2013-05-12 18:56:25 <sipa> CaptainBlaze: i'm sure you'll find a few hundred threads about it
1543 2013-05-12 18:56:33 <CaptainBlaze> haha, ok.
1544 2013-05-12 18:56:41 <CaptainBlaze> I will have a look outside of this forum.
1545 2013-05-12 18:56:56 <CaptainBlaze> I am guessing it's a question best read about in depth.
1546 2013-05-12 18:57:03 <CaptainBlaze> and not quickly answered in a short summation?
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1551 2013-05-12 19:00:35 icellan has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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1554 2013-05-12 19:05:00 <CaptainBlaze> Can't seem to find anything on bitcointalk, could you point me towards any other forums that might contain this topic? Or a thread if you have a more accurate link?
1555 2013-05-12 19:07:58 <ali1234> does anyone know why some altcoins wallet import format decodes to 38 bytes instead of 37?
1556 2013-05-12 19:08:29 <ali1234> bitcoins is byte:networkID, 32xbyte:key, 4xbyte:checksum
1557 2013-05-12 19:08:33 _caedes has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1558 2013-05-12 19:08:53 <ali1234> the altcoins appear to be sing byte:networkID, byte:0x01, ...
1559 2013-05-12 19:09:55 <BlueMatt> CaptainBlaze: essentially it boils down to: you have to use something that can be verified easily (without a central authority) and takes lots of effort to solve
1560 2013-05-12 19:10:11 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1561 2013-05-12 19:10:20 <BlueMatt> CaptainBlaze: if you can do that securely, then you should be able to replace the pow algorithm
1562 2013-05-12 19:12:20 <CaptainBlaze> ah i see BlueMatt.
1563 2013-05-12 19:12:21 <lianj> ali1234: maybe you mean compressed wtf uncompressed addresses?
1564 2013-05-12 19:12:30 <lianj> s/wtf/vs/
1565 2013-05-12 19:12:36 <lianj> strange typo
1566 2013-05-12 19:12:46 <ali1234> hmm, maybe
1567 2013-05-12 19:12:49 g0thX has joined
1568 2013-05-12 19:12:53 <ali1234> but wait why would compressed be bigger?
1569 2013-05-12 19:13:11 <lianj> because it has a 'is compressed' flag
1570 2013-05-12 19:13:31 <ali1234> well
1571 2013-05-12 19:13:39 <ali1234> look at these two b58 strings
1572 2013-05-12 19:13:54 <ali1234> N6DE37A57qq4dnfS1JL9VTHtHdoxmv5ZHZiWWYwT4iuuP1TRcskt
1573 2013-05-12 19:14:05 <ali1234> 5HueCGU8rMjxEXxiPuD5BDku4MkFqeZyd4dZ1jvhTVqvbTLvyTJ
1574 2013-05-12 19:14:21 <ali1234> second one is the example from https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_import_format
1575 2013-05-12 19:15:39 <ali1234> first one decodes to 0x8e 0x01 <32 bytes> <4 bytes checksum>
1576 2013-05-12 19:15:53 _caedes has joined
1577 2013-05-12 19:16:13 <ali1234> i don't see how that 0x01 can represent "compressed" as the key might start with 0x01...
1578 2013-05-12 19:17:22 <lianj> ali1234: first one is compressed, second one not
1579 2013-05-12 19:17:30 <lianj> http://paste.mhanne.net/p/41cf7b8ad907f33092906d1ec79e43c0801e5150?hl=text
1580 2013-05-12 19:18:14 <lianj> itst the 0x01 before the checksum
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1582 2013-05-12 19:18:29 <BlueMatt> CaptainBlaze: oh, and it also has to take as input, something securely covering the data in the block (ie the hash of the header or the header contents itself or whatever)
1583 2013-05-12 19:18:38 <ali1234> lianj: how can it be?
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1585 2013-05-12 19:19:20 <ali1234> also you're right
1586 2013-05-12 19:19:33 <ali1234> net,key,x,checksum = struct.unpack('>B32sB4s', raw) is my code
1587 2013-05-12 19:20:11 <ali1234> but in that case, how do you spot the difference between compressed and a checksum that just happens to start with 0x01?
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1590 2013-05-12 19:22:23 <MoALTz> you also need to vary the parameters of the useful PoW function for it to continue being useful. and you need to pick ones that cannot be cheated with bogus results (cheating and getting useful results is fine)
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1599 2013-05-12 19:26:13 <MoALTz> i strongly suspect that you can turn a deterministic stochastic (RNG seeded; i recommend hash(previous block + miner's choice + nonce)) simulation into a PoW. gromacs (a molecular simulator used in folding@home) or other physics ones might be nice
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1606 2013-05-12 19:40:48 <The_Fly> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G-K7-QOaA4
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1615 2013-05-12 19:58:06 <nsh> people who have videos shot in front of their array of armaments...
1616 2013-05-12 19:58:46 <The_Fly> i know, lol
1617 2013-05-12 19:59:11 <The_Fly> "i was wrong about bitcoin, but i will still end you if you disagree with me"
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1619 2013-05-12 20:00:45 realazthat_ is now known as realazthat
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1623 2013-05-12 20:01:00 <ali1234> that guy looks like gabe newell got lyposuction
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1626 2013-05-12 20:07:25 <The_Fly> maybe he 3d printed those guns
1627 2013-05-12 20:08:13 <BlueMatt> MoALTz: yes, I would not be surprised if something like gromacs could be turned into a pow, would take some serious work though
1628 2013-05-12 20:09:49 <lianj> ali1234: the length
1629 2013-05-12 20:10:11 <ali1234> lianj: so if length != 37 it is compressed?
1630 2013-05-12 20:10:26 <sipa> ali1234: what altcoin is that?
1631 2013-05-12 20:10:33 <ali1234> what if compressing it reduced the length by 1 byte?
1632 2013-05-12 20:10:42 <ali1234> then it would be compressed and 37 bytes long
1633 2013-05-12 20:10:46 <ali1234> sipa: it's feathercoin
1634 2013-05-12 20:10:53 <sipa> ali1234: and compression is not a property of private key, but of _public_ keys
1635 2013-05-12 20:11:09 <lianj> what sipa said
1636 2013-05-12 20:11:13 <ali1234> sipa: i never really believed it was compressed :)
1637 2013-05-12 20:11:13 <sipa> it's just that the private key needs a marker to know whether to construct the corresponding compressed or uncompressed pubkey
1638 2013-05-12 20:11:37 <ali1234> hmm
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1640 2013-05-12 20:12:00 <ali1234> i see
1641 2013-05-12 20:12:07 <ali1234> so it really is just an extra flag
1642 2013-05-12 20:12:35 <sipa> and in bitcoin, [0x80] [32-byte privkey] [4-byte checksum] for uncompressed ones, and [0x80] [32-byte privkey] [0x01] [4-byte checksum] for compressed one
1643 2013-05-12 20:12:46 <sipa> for other coins, go ask them
1644 2013-05-12 20:12:54 <ali1234> sipa: you'll probably find this amusing. today someone made "gamecoin" with same genesis block and rules compatible with feathercoin. their blockchain now begins with 6600 feathercoin blocks then a hard fork
1645 2013-05-12 20:13:33 <ali1234> so i made a tool to convert the privatekeys so people can get their feather/gamecoins and double spend them and posted it on the forum
1646 2013-05-12 20:14:19 <ali1234> i'm not 100% sure that actually works?
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1653 2013-05-12 20:24:56 <tumak> MoALTz: there is a paper on the forum somewhere on how to exploit PoW for monte carlo simulations
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1655 2013-05-12 20:25:05 <tumak> it has some really rough corners, but might be nice indeed
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1668 2013-05-12 20:35:27 <Julius129> how can i detect dust and penalize people that deposit dust?
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1670 2013-05-12 20:37:51 <nsh> nanotube, do you want gribble rehosted over tor/sasl?
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1754 2013-05-12 22:49:01 <ali1234> given txid and vout, can i tell if it is unspent if it isn't in my wallet, without scanning the entire block chain?
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1763 2013-05-12 23:00:46 <diki> lol
1764 2013-05-12 23:00:52 <diki> 300gbit DDoS
1765 2013-05-12 23:03:37 <nsh> ?
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