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  65 2013-05-13 02:11:02 <Neozonz> Disc|Aga!~Neozonz@198-84-191-143.cpe.teksavvy.com|is there a command to exit bitcoind?
  66 2013-05-13 02:11:22 <rdponticelli> Neozonz|Disc|Aga: bitcoind stop?
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 171 2013-05-13 03:46:33 <saivann> I would like to switch bitcoin.org translations to transifex in two days. Any comment on the global idea is appreciated : https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/178
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 175 2013-05-13 03:51:05 <Luke-Jr> saivann: bad timing. I'd prefer to put it off until the hardfork is over
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 179 2013-05-13 03:52:06 <Luke-Jr> if something goes wrong, I don't think we want to have trouble with a new translation system to deal with concurrently..
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 181 2013-05-13 03:53:46 <saivann> Luke-Jr: No problem. That said, I will always be around to fix anything in a very short delay. This change has been well tested
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 185 2013-05-13 03:54:29 <Luke-Jr> saivann: it's probably fine.. just a lot of changes at once is scary
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 187 2013-05-13 03:54:54 <Luke-Jr> this week, we have hardfork and San Jose conference
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 189 2013-05-13 03:55:01 <Luke-Jr> and maybe 0.8.2
 190 2013-05-13 03:55:14 <saivann> Luke-Jr: Fair enough. I will suspend this change, thanks
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 192 2013-05-13 03:55:41 <Luke-Jr> saivann: btw, will you be at the conference?
 193 2013-05-13 03:56:23 <saivann> Luke-Jr: It would have been nice, but probably next time :)
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 238 2013-05-13 05:11:55 <simmoi> any way to search through blockchain.dat manually for a transaction?
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 245 2013-05-13 05:26:04 <lianj> simmoi: sure, but its not fast
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 260 2013-05-13 05:38:12 <Diablo-D3> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaOC9danxNo&feature=player_embedded
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 291 2013-05-13 06:29:25 <amiller> does anyone really understand the bitcoin and red balloons paper from microsoft research
 292 2013-05-13 06:29:28 <amiller> it came out in 2011
 293 2013-05-13 06:29:32 <amiller> obviously no one has talked about actually implementing it
 294 2013-05-13 06:30:01 <amiller> i think the general opinion is that the problem it solves is really not an urgent one or one we observe anyone having trouble with
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 297 2013-05-13 06:31:20 <amiller> the problem it tries to solve is incentivizing nodes to relay transactions
 298 2013-05-13 06:31:39 <amiller> obviously it doesn't matter now because no one bothers paying fees anyway
 299 2013-05-13 06:31:56 <amiller> but the technique they use is potentially useful in other places
 300 2013-05-13 06:32:14 <J-Hong> Hey guys, what are my options now for watching addresses in a cold wallet? Bitcoind needs private keys. Tried blockchain's receive payments API -- no go as it fwds payments with 0 tx fee. Bitcoinmonitor.net not reliable enough.
 301 2013-05-13 06:32:31 <amiller> the bigger problem is that i think the technique is flawed or not realizable and that's what i really want to talk about
 302 2013-05-13 06:32:45 <amiller> https://research.microsoft.com/pubs/156072/bitcoin.pdf
 303 2013-05-13 06:33:01 <amiller> here's someone's summary of it http://coderrr.wordpress.com/2011/11/13/simplified-summary-of-microsoft-researchs-bitcoin-paper-on-incentivizing-transaction-propagation/
 304 2013-05-13 06:33:33 <cjd> I read it, didn't really agree with the problem and didn't really follow the solution :)
 305 2013-05-13 06:34:43 <J-Hong> is my only option to run bitcoind but leave wallet encrypted? Not really a "cold wallet" then though...
 306 2013-05-13 06:35:45 <amiller> cjd well suppose the problem is more generally to incentivize the forwarding of any particular kind of packet
 307 2013-05-13 06:35:52 <amiller> cjd not just forwarding but broadcast specifically
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 310 2013-05-13 06:36:13 <cjd> that's kindasorta related to cjdns
 311 2013-05-13 06:36:15 <amiller> like the idea behavior is that each node forwards it to all of the unique nodes it's connected to, without causing any duplicates (that would be dos misbehavior)
 312 2013-05-13 06:36:28 <cjd> the code that we have not implemented but we want :)
 313 2013-05-13 06:36:49 <amiller> cjd, yes i think it is - btw i'm particularly glad that you're working on bitcoin more and hope you are able to extract the pure goodness of bitcoin and use it for general routing
 314 2013-05-13 06:37:06 <cjd> well...
 315 2013-05-13 06:37:11 <cjd> bitcoin has problems too
 316 2013-05-13 06:37:31 <sivu> nooo!?
 317 2013-05-13 06:37:33 <amiller> yes it does but at the core it has a novel approach to dos resilience
 318 2013-05-13 06:37:53 <gmaxwell> amiller: I'm familar with it. Mostly I've kinda mocked it by pointing out "hey guys, we've solved the not-big-incentive-to-relay-txn problem by making txn 1000x more costly to relay!"
 319 2013-05-13 06:38:09 <amiller> gmaxwell, yeah same. but i think i should give it a closer look now
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 321 2013-05-13 06:38:42 <cjd> one of the more interesting problems is that it doesn't model (and we as a society are terrible at this in general) the kind of value that isn't in money... reputation, good will, desire to fit in, desire to be helpful, desire for mastery...
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 324 2013-05-13 06:38:52 <amiller> so to give them the benefit of the doubt assume, the first thing i want to draw attention to is the basic structure of the network they assume
 325 2013-05-13 06:38:57 <amiller> it's a forest of trees with roots
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 328 2013-05-13 06:39:04 <phantomcircuit> amiller, mostly they're wrong because relaying transactions is very cheap even in the most absurd circumstances
 329 2013-05-13 06:39:10 <amiller> so basically the decision space of any node is whether or not to relay nodes to your children
 330 2013-05-13 06:39:18 <amiller> but the key thing about this assumption is that if you don't relay to your children, you know that no one else will either
 331 2013-05-13 06:39:26 <gmaxwell> amiller: which is bogus but it was required for their math to work out on rewards and the path length truncation stuff.
 332 2013-05-13 06:39:31 <amiller> right
 333 2013-05-13 06:39:43 <gmaxwell> I don't think they ever suggested the network looked like that, however.
 334 2013-05-13 06:39:50 skinnkavaj has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 335 2013-05-13 06:40:26 J-Hong has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 336 2013-05-13 06:40:34 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, they shouldn't have been talking about bitcoin at all then ;)
 337 2013-05-13 06:40:46 <amiller> is that a common network assumption
 338 2013-05-13 06:40:58 <amiller> like i don't know what to make of that, or how to tell whether it's realistic or what the implications are otherwise
 339 2013-05-13 06:41:11 skinnkavaj has joined
 340 2013-05-13 06:41:11 skinnkavaj has quit (Changing host)
 341 2013-05-13 06:41:11 skinnkavaj has joined
 342 2013-05-13 06:41:15 <cjd> pointing out problems with a hypothetical payment network is kind of uninteresting
 343 2013-05-13 06:41:17 <phantomcircuit> it's not even remotely an accurate assumption
 344 2013-05-13 06:41:35 <phantomcircuit> the bitcoin network is more like a core of connectable nodes connected to a ring of unconnectable nodes
 345 2013-05-13 06:41:42 <gmaxwell> It's not, I think they thought of this when thinking about the other namesake of their paper. And it fits tie darpa prize team structuring.
 346 2013-05-13 06:42:18 <amiller> the main structure that's missing is like exlucsivity
 347 2013-05-13 06:42:33 lolcookie has joined
 348 2013-05-13 06:42:35 <amiller> like the main reason that i think their results are useless is because it's easily defeated if other people can send information to your peers behind your back
 349 2013-05-13 06:43:28 ardeay_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 350 2013-05-13 06:43:30 <gmaxwell> "we solved the relay being too easy for our solution to relay being too hard problem by making relaying harder!"
 351 2013-05-13 06:43:52 <phantomcircuit> lol
 352 2013-05-13 06:44:05 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i've had too many beers to follow that logic
 353 2013-05-13 06:44:16 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 354 2013-05-13 06:44:24 ardeay_ has joined
 355 2013-05-13 06:44:24 <amiller> lol gmaxwell
 356 2013-05-13 06:44:39 <tumak> Their solution to the Sybil attack is to give 0 reward to all nodes in a chain of forwards if the length of that chain is greater than H. This gives a negative incentive to create fake forwards to yourself in attempt to gain multiple rewards for a single transaction. Your best bet is to forward legitimately to other nodes and hope the transaction reaches a miner who solves it before the number of forwards is greater than H.
 357 2013-05-13 06:44:40 <amiller> yes well yeah this paper has certainly been enjoyable to mock
 358 2013-05-13 06:44:45 <tumak> does not sound right
 359 2013-05-13 06:45:02 <tumak> just find where the miner is :(
 360 2013-05-13 06:45:06 <amiller> but i still think there's a kernel of a good idea in there
 361 2013-05-13 06:45:12 <tumak> yup
 362 2013-05-13 06:45:13 <amiller> okay so one of the other assumptions is that every node is a miner
 363 2013-05-13 06:45:17 <amiller> with exactly the same hash power
 364 2013-05-13 06:45:17 <tumak> assuming mining would be decentralized
 365 2013-05-13 06:45:20 <tumak> it's actually clever
 366 2013-05-13 06:45:21 <tumak> yep
 367 2013-05-13 06:46:02 <tumak> decentralized mining or routing between nodes which is hard to affect in a deterministic way
 368 2013-05-13 06:46:17 <tumak> (eg nothing-up-my-sleeve enchanced overlay networks)
 369 2013-05-13 06:46:40 <cjd> miners not repeating a tx makes some kind of sense but miners want to connect to *EVERYONE* so if you have 8 connections, you probably have 7 connections to miners and blockchain.info...
 370 2013-05-13 06:47:02 <tumak> cjd: yeah, the paper competely ignores reality of bitcoin mesh
 371 2013-05-13 06:47:05 <gmaxwell> "We now live in a society, where the most important goods have zero marginal cost. Everybody can have a copy of them at no cost. And where everybody on the planet is either actually or potentially connected to everybody else without intermediary. Under those circumstances, some traditional political economy principals don't hold, anymore AND what they are talking about is an economy based on property that doesn't make sense in a world ...
 372 2013-05-13 06:47:11 <gmaxwell> ... of universal interconnection and zero marginal cost goods. [...] What you can prove about music and other such cultural goods with zero marginal cost is that anarchist distribution, that is distribution by people who don't own any right at all in what they are distributing works better than any other solution. So, because they are capitalists, and believe in competition, we can make a prediction, for them. They will be competed out ...
 373 2013-05-13 06:47:16 <gmaxwell> ... of existence by anarchism which works better"
 374 2013-05-13 06:47:59 <cjd> wut
 375 2013-05-13 06:48:06 <tumak> gmaxwell finally flipped
 376 2013-05-13 06:48:13 <cjd> xD
 377 2013-05-13 06:48:16 <gmaxwell> :P
 378 2013-05-13 06:48:37 <gmaxwell> cjd: if you only have 8 connections, they're all outbound and won't look like that.
 379 2013-05-13 06:48:47 <cjd> oh right, good point
 380 2013-05-13 06:50:58 <cjd> I might be a damn socialist but I really think the next big break will come when we start finding ways to model intrinsic personal incentives as bitcoin does model money.
 381 2013-05-13 06:51:56 <amiller> cjd, read about social collateral networks http://www.econ.wisc.edu/workshop/trust_and_social_collateral.pdf
 382 2013-05-13 06:52:00 <tumak> i think m$ guys are on to something with their "pass it, or increase risk losing it" idea though
 383 2013-05-13 06:52:10 <tumak> they just applied it in worst possible way to bitcoin :(
 384 2013-05-13 06:52:25 <cjd> It seems that in the bitcoin community, people get in the Ayn Rand spirit and behave more objectively than human beings naturally do.
 385 2013-05-13 06:52:51 <tumak> cjd: they're forced to :(
 386 2013-05-13 06:53:08 <cjd> well, the incentives do encourage it
 387 2013-05-13 06:53:20 <cjd> but that is because our model is lacking
 388 2013-05-13 06:53:34 <tumak> well, overgeneralizations and inaccurate statements leads to a lot frustration for everyone involved when dealing with crypto
 389 2013-05-13 06:53:42 <amiller> so if the network wasn't a forest
 390 2013-05-13 06:54:00 <amiller> what would happen is that the node creating a transaction would sign N copies of the transaction, one each to all of the N nodes it's connected to
 391 2013-05-13 06:54:11 <amiller> now each of those N nodes would send it to everyone they know
 392 2013-05-13 06:54:29 <amiller> now in a shallow world like bitcoin maybe the second one gets sent to all the miners in two steps immediately
 393 2013-05-13 06:54:50 <gmaxwell> cjd: more like cargo cult objectivity.
 394 2013-05-13 06:55:03 <cjd> I like that term :)
 395 2013-05-13 06:55:24 <tumak> cargo cult pedantry?
 396 2013-05-13 06:55:25 <tumak> oh i see
 397 2013-05-13 06:55:48 <amiller> so if you can connect to every single node initially then you would still be encouraged to do so this way
 398 2013-05-13 06:55:50 <tumak> cjd: i'll never forgive you for supporting that antidust patch !!!!111111 </objectivism> lol
 399 2013-05-13 06:55:57 <cjd> :D
 400 2013-05-13 06:56:12 <cjd> ! = bitcoin
 401 2013-05-13 06:56:13 <gribble> Error: "=" is not a valid command.
 402 2013-05-13 06:56:16 <cjd> 1 = colorcoin
 403 2013-05-13 06:56:19 <amiller> so... actually i think this is a really good and simple solution, if you can broadcast effectively then you should do so in one pass
 404 2013-05-13 06:56:34 <gmaxwell> Back when cpu mining was merely break even (and before) I was greatly amused by people ranting on for hours at a time about how irrational cpu mining is and how people are wwwasssting their money.  ... as opposed to the uber profitable task of ranting at people on IRC. :P
 405 2013-05-13 06:56:53 <cjd> :D
 406 2013-05-13 06:56:54 <tumak> amiller: sure, ultimately everyone wants to connect 1hop to *fastest* miner
 407 2013-05-13 06:57:00 <amiller> it would also be trival to implement without even modifying the protocol.
 408 2013-05-13 06:57:00 <gmaxwell> amiller: "solution"
 409 2013-05-13 06:57:02 icanhazfries has joined
 410 2013-05-13 06:57:14 <gmaxwell> amiller: a problem with your solution is that there must be a problem before there is a solution. :P
 411 2013-05-13 06:57:26 <tumak> yea
 412 2013-05-13 06:57:30 <tumak> damn microsoft
 413 2013-05-13 06:57:32 <cjd> maybe there is a way that we can collect the energy released by angry nerds xD
 414 2013-05-13 06:57:34 <tumak> inventing problems and then solving them
 415 2013-05-13 06:57:36 <amiller> one way of interpreting this is that all it says is if you are connected to some nodes, and you know the bitcoin addresses of those nodes, you might want to add a txout with a bit of fee in it for them too
 416 2013-05-13 06:57:55 <amiller> by bitcoin address i just mean a bitcoin address that the node you're connecting to values
 417 2013-05-13 06:58:01 <gmaxwell> well, I mean, hey, if it were free... doesn't seem bad, but even assuming 1 hop, you're basically doubling transaction sizes to accomidate it... and that data has to go into the blockchain. yuck.
 418 2013-05-13 06:58:02 <amiller> it doesn't have to be their identity in particular
 419 2013-05-13 06:58:05 icanhazfries has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 420 2013-05-13 06:58:18 <amiller> it is free.
 421 2013-05-13 06:58:24 <cjd> 02:34 < tumak> inventing problems and then solving them  <-- The security history of Windows indicates MS is experienced at this
 422 2013-05-13 06:58:29 <tumak> amiller: now imagine some sort of weird kademlia network, where you can talk only to nodes with distance metric of sha256(yourkey_priv_key,theirpubsig) or something
 423 2013-05-13 06:58:29 <amiller> i mean it's opt in too like this requires no normative change
 424 2013-05-13 06:59:08 <tumak> amiller: in that case, you cant do intelligent route
 425 2013-05-13 06:59:16 <tumak> and only thing you could do is to broadcast as much you can
 426 2013-05-13 06:59:20 <gmaxwell> Adding a txout isn't free. Sure okay, free if you don't use it— K. their system wasn't, so your observation does materially improve the solution to the non-problem. :P
 427 2013-05-13 06:59:35 <gmaxwell> tumak: thats what bitcoin is, it's a flooding network
 428 2013-05-13 06:59:53 <tumak> gmaxwell: my point is to make the notion of "hops" non-deterministic
 429 2013-05-13 06:59:53 <cjd> hmm
 430 2013-05-13 06:59:57 <tumak> so the m$ proposal could work
 431 2013-05-13 07:00:06 <gmaxwell> tumak: no ...
 432 2013-05-13 07:00:17 <cjd> gmaxwell: can you refresh me on why nodes prefer to connect to those with longest latency and not shortest?
 433 2013-05-13 07:00:26 <tumak> gmaxwell: aka invent the problem :)
 434 2013-05-13 07:00:37 <gmaxwell> cjd: they don't.
 435 2013-05-13 07:00:42 <cjd> oh ok
 436 2013-05-13 07:00:45 <cjd> irc myth
 437 2013-05-13 07:01:04 <cjd> so they aim for peers with low latency or don't care at all?
 438 2013-05-13 07:01:09 <gmaxwell> (though connecting to shortets would be bad, very strongly pro-partitioning)
 439 2013-05-13 07:01:11 <tumak> its a chaotic all-to-all bcast network, and actually adequate for bitcoin
 440 2013-05-13 07:01:20 <gmaxwell> cjd: they don't care about latency.
 441 2013-05-13 07:01:30 <cjd> hmm
 442 2013-05-13 07:01:42 <MC1984> shouldnt bitcoin have enough incentive to relay as it is, given a good perfusion in peoples minds of why its important
 443 2013-05-13 07:01:43 <cjd> I suppose it makes the whole thing more simple
 444 2013-05-13 07:01:54 <amiller> all this would require is a) every node that connects to you also sends you an address "if you enjoy my connection, send tips here" when it connects  and b) when you create a transaction, add a txout to this person and then finally c) as a relayer, if you receive a transaction that benefits you, then you should proritize relaying it (assuming you care about priority here) and additionally d) if you think you are more than 1 hop away
 445 2013-05-13 07:01:54 <amiller> from the biggest set, perhaps you want to create a second transaction that splits your fee with the person next to you
 446 2013-05-13 07:02:02 <cjd> but dropping the connection which is last to relay a block might be interesting
 447 2013-05-13 07:02:06 <tumak> MC1984: miners have *very* strong incentive to relay well
 448 2013-05-13 07:02:10 <gmaxwell> MC1984: it does, no one has even suggested that it doesn't in practice. go go academics.
 449 2013-05-13 07:02:10 <tumak> otherwise they risk orphans
 450 2013-05-13 07:02:13 <MC1984> im not sure the incentive is missing, but knowledge
 451 2013-05-13 07:02:32 <tumak> s/relay/connect to as much nodes as possible/
 452 2013-05-13 07:03:16 <gmaxwell> tumak: not really, you want to make sure your blocks rapidly get to half the hashpower, beyond that.. meh.
 453 2013-05-13 07:03:23 <amiller> the academic point of view is that it would be nice if we could formally justify what seems to be community beliefs about incentives and behavior etc
 454 2013-05-13 07:04:13 <tumak> gmaxwell: in this day and age when 20 bitcoinds constitute 80% of hashing power ... fair point
 455 2013-05-13 07:04:15 <amiller> and such study also potentailly has a benefit of revealing edge cases we haven't thought of yet or useful techniques for future problems if conditions change or other design decisions make the problems salient
 456 2013-05-13 07:04:53 <gmaxwell> amiller: K. Still will never be deployed in production until it seems likely that some issue actually exists that it would help.
 457 2013-05-13 07:05:34 <amiller> sure, so i'm trying just to understand how it works so maybe we can be ready or find other ways to use it
 458 2013-05-13 07:05:52 <tumak> amiller: i think the approach is valid. 'pay me, or no mempool for your ip'
 459 2013-05-13 07:05:55 <tumak> re: rational miners
 460 2013-05-13 07:05:55 <amiller> i'm confident now it is already possible with existing protocol  for the 1 hop case but i think that breaks down beyond 1 hop
 461 2013-05-13 07:05:57 <gmaxwell> ::nods:: (I'm more making this clear for everyone else here...)
 462 2013-05-13 07:06:40 <cjd> most of these "attacks on bitcoin" make the assumption that there are no human beings involved
 463 2013-05-13 07:07:11 <gmaxwell> amiller: does more than one hop actually matter? You get the huge scaling benefit just by having one level of indirection.
 464 2013-05-13 07:07:22 <cjd> once you realize that people making transactions will want to send them to miners and miners will want to receive them, the mesh looks less like a mesh and more like a tree
 465 2013-05-13 07:07:25 <amiller> gmaxwell, well surely it's diminishing returns for the remaining cases
 466 2013-05-13 07:07:29 <tumak> well, its kinda sad one has to hide bitcoind behind tor and increase max out connections to 100 to be somewhat ddos proof
 467 2013-05-13 07:07:36 <amiller> but that's kind of the key to understanding their particular novel design here
 468 2013-05-13 07:07:36 melvster2 has joined
 469 2013-05-13 07:07:56 <cjd> tumak: you got ddos'd?
 470 2013-05-13 07:08:19 <gmaxwell> tumak: not sure what you're talking about there…
 471 2013-05-13 07:08:27 <tumak> not me personally, had a convo with a guy running ltc pool or something, on how to mitigate it
 472 2013-05-13 07:08:53 <gmaxwell> well, lol, ltc is another matter.
 473 2013-05-13 07:09:07 <cjd> esp. since it's unpatched...
 474 2013-05-13 07:09:21 <tumak> yup
 475 2013-05-13 07:09:31 <tumak> still dirty hack, but with 100 out connections, you reduce the lag to like 400ms
 476 2013-05-13 07:09:46 <tumak> with default 8 connections, your odds using very slow circuits were simply too high :/
 477 2013-05-13 07:10:17 <gmaxwell> tumak: tor batches... all those 100 might be on the same circuit.
 478 2013-05-13 07:10:26 <cjd> I wouldn't exactly call it ddos if it's exploiting a bug, just DoS
 479 2013-05-13 07:10:42 <tumak> gmaxwell: of course the tor was setup to cycle circuits a lot
 480 2013-05-13 07:11:13 <ardeay_> ;;ticker
 481 2013-05-13 07:11:14 <gribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 115.31804, Best ask: 116.01998, Bid-ask spread: 0.70194, Last trade: 116.01999, 24 hour volume: 22880.40828985, 24 hour low: 112.40000, 24 hour high: 117.47000, 24 hour vwap: 114.74584
 482 2013-05-13 07:11:19 <tumak> cjd: indeed
 483 2013-05-13 07:11:46 melvster2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 484 2013-05-13 07:12:15 <amiller> ok so the real problem is about priority and relaying quickly, sure the node has an interest in getting your transaction 'out there' but maybe doesn't care if it's quick or not
 485 2013-05-13 07:12:41 <tumak> amiller: normal users dont care that much imo
 486 2013-05-13 07:12:47 chax has joined
 487 2013-05-13 07:12:48 <amiller> so that's where part of what this paper is considering is the idea of competition where the relayer should be in a hurry to relay his because otherwise someone will already have that one
 488 2013-05-13 07:13:18 <cjd> hmm
 489 2013-05-13 07:13:24 icanhazfries has joined
 490 2013-05-13 07:13:40 <tumak> but the issue might be very real in case: miner a has 40% hash rate, miner b has 20% hash rate. miner a will *not* relay to miner b, ever
 491 2013-05-13 07:13:46 <amiller> As explained, if the amount of external competition from non-descendent nodes is
 492 2013-05-13 07:13:47 <amiller> small, a node prefers not to distribute the transaction, and thus increase the probability that it receives the reward for authorization. However, if sufficiently many nondescendent nodes are aware of the transaction, the node prefers to duplicate itself one
 493 2013-05-13 07:13:47 <amiller> less time, and thus distribute the transaction to its children and increase its potential
 494 2013-05-13 07:13:47 <amiller> distribution reward. Once all nodes increase distribution, the arms race begins: the
 495 2013-05-13 07:13:47 <amiller> competition each node faces is greater, and again it prefers to duplicate itself one less
 496 2013-05-13 07:13:49 <amiller> time and distribute all the way to its grand-children. As this process continues, all
 497 2013-05-13 07:13:49 <cjd> this doesn't actually require an explicit payment
 498 2013-05-13 07:13:50 <tumak> perhaps use some network dirty tricks to cut off miner b from other miners
 499 2013-05-13 07:13:51 <amiller> nodes eventually prefer to distribute fully and never to duplicate.
 500 2013-05-13 07:14:11 zz_highPriestLOL is now known as highPriestLOL
 501 2013-05-13 07:14:31 <tumak> amiller: i'd reduce the premise of the paper to competition between individual miners with comparable hashrate
 502 2013-05-13 07:14:40 <cjd> if you periodically drop the last node to relay a message, everyone is incentivised to relay quickly
 503 2013-05-13 07:14:51 <cjd> but I gather there are issues with that
 504 2013-05-13 07:15:40 <amiller> so basically if you have a transaction that rewards you, you should relay it, unless you are so certain that everyone else already has a copy of that transaction with a shorter path that cuts you out
 505 2013-05-13 07:15:44 <cjd> probably the biggest issue is it's deterministic, the current method isn't so attacking it is hared
 506 2013-05-13 07:15:52 fishfish has quit (Quit: Zzzzz..zzzzz)
 507 2013-05-13 07:15:59 <tumak> yep :/
 508 2013-05-13 07:16:06 <tumak> too easy to set up ideal scenario
 509 2013-05-13 07:16:35 <cjd> I have a certain damn attraction to dropping slow nodes :)
 510 2013-05-13 07:16:55 <amiller> so my main question right now is what is the point of what they suggeted by having a particular rwards schedule
 511 2013-05-13 07:16:59 <amiller> because the way i just described it
 512 2013-05-13 07:17:07 <amiller> each node can set whatever price they want, it just comes out of their total fee
 513 2013-05-13 07:17:10 <cjd> it creates the desired incentive naturally because nobody wants to be dropped for withholding transactions
 514 2013-05-13 07:17:38 <amiller> so basically without changing bitcoin protocol at all you can do exactly this scheme it's just that each person has to decide if it's worth it to them to attach an additional fee to the transaction as a way of getting it through
 515 2013-05-13 07:18:04 <amiller> like if i have transaction txA that pays me and i really want you to relay it quickly, then I create txA' that buils on A and pays you
 516 2013-05-13 07:18:37 <cjd> hmm
 517 2013-05-13 07:18:45 <cjd> the network partition risk is huge
 518 2013-05-13 07:19:05 ry4nn_ has joined
 519 2013-05-13 07:19:17 <ezdiy> cjd: i think you can partition bitcoin even now as it is :)
 520 2013-05-13 07:19:27 <ezdiy> tcp reset tricks are sure fun
 521 2013-05-13 07:19:36 tcatm_ is now known as tcatm
 522 2013-05-13 07:19:36 <cjd> if you own an isp
 523 2013-05-13 07:19:55 <amiller> okay so yeah suppose i create two transactions for the same total value and spending the same utxo
 524 2013-05-13 07:20:02 Thepok has joined
 525 2013-05-13 07:20:05 <ezdiy> well, i have 10ge pipe with no source filter right here
 526 2013-05-13 07:20:18 <cjd> hah ok
 527 2013-05-13 07:20:26 <amiller> isn't the new priority rule says that the transaction with greater fee gets preferred
 528 2013-05-13 07:20:26 <cjd> too bad bitcoin doesn't support cjdns
 529 2013-05-13 07:20:31 <cjd> try resetting that ;)
 530 2013-05-13 07:20:42 <gmaxwell> ezdiy: you can't even get the peer ip address, even if you know the 5 tuple it still takes a few gigs to kill a tcp connection.
 531 2013-05-13 07:20:58 <ezdiy> gmaxwell: i will simply get all the peers
 532 2013-05-13 07:21:00 <gmaxwell> and bitcoin happily opens up new connections...
 533 2013-05-13 07:21:15 <cjd> oh ic
 534 2013-05-13 07:21:18 <ezdiy> one port is fixed, second is guesswork
 535 2013-05-13 07:21:20 highPriestLOL is now known as zz_highPriestLOL
 536 2013-05-13 07:21:25 <gmaxwell> ezdiy: yea sure, and then you need to send several TB of data. and long before your done they're all up again.
 537 2013-05-13 07:21:25 <cjd> and the window
 538 2013-05-13 07:21:43 <cjd> if the second port was fixed it would be kinda scary
 539 2013-05-13 07:21:44 <ezdiy> gmaxwell: i think the network will win somewhere at >5k nodes
 540 2013-05-13 07:21:58 <amiller> so suppose i send someone txA with a 0.001 payment to them but no mining fee, and txB with a 0.001 mining fee but no payment to them
 541 2013-05-13 07:21:58 ry4nn has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 542 2013-05-13 07:22:02 <amiller> will their mempool prefer the txA/
 543 2013-05-13 07:22:05 <ezdiy> assuming i can reset 100 connections a second
 544 2013-05-13 07:22:20 <cjd> also you will make an enormous amount of noise
 545 2013-05-13 07:22:21 <cjd> ofc
 546 2013-05-13 07:22:27 <ezdiy> cjd: lol, its all spoofed
 547 2013-05-13 07:22:28 <ezdiy> who cares
 548 2013-05-13 07:22:30 <gmaxwell> ezdiy: it's, say, 40k peers + 15 bits of port, plus 24 bits of window. You'll do far better exausting someone's bandwidth than usefully resetting anything.
 549 2013-05-13 07:22:47 <ezdiy> cjd: on the other hand, lame isp operators will start banning each other
 550 2013-05-13 07:22:49 <ezdiy> so hilarity ensues
 551 2013-05-13 07:23:00 <ezdiy> why u ddosing me, bro? there, have a null route lol
 552 2013-05-13 07:23:00 <cjd> when it's all spoofed it makes even more noise
 553 2013-05-13 07:23:10 <gmaxwell> and see how long your fast port lasts while you're sending out a multigigabit spoofed rst flood.
 554 2013-05-13 07:23:17 <cjd> ^^
 555 2013-05-13 07:23:25 <ezdiy> why wouldn't it last?
 556 2013-05-13 07:23:54 <amiller> bah i can't find the current proposals about modifying mempool priority by adding fees, i think it's a forum post by petertodd
 557 2013-05-13 07:23:56 <cjd> kinda like the spamhaus/cyberbunker thing
 558 2013-05-13 07:23:57 <gmaxwell> because a customer port with without unicast rpf checking is misconfigured.
 559 2013-05-13 07:24:10 <ezdiy> its not a customer port, naturally :)
 560 2013-05-13 07:24:13 <gmaxwell> amiller: mempool preference is meaningless.
 561 2013-05-13 07:24:20 <gmaxwell> then your job then.
 562 2013-05-13 07:24:31 <cjd> noone cared about cyberbunker until the spamhaus thing
 563 2013-05-13 07:24:34 <ezdiy> gmaxwell: but if i kept it for days i'd probably get depeered from tier1 or 2
 564 2013-05-13 07:24:42 <cjd> now everyone suddenly cares about cybcebunker
 565 2013-05-13 07:24:45 <cjd> aka jail
 566 2013-05-13 07:24:58 <ezdiy> gmaxwell: however please dont dismiss network attack scenarios like this, they're very real
 567 2013-05-13 07:25:10 <gmaxwell> ezdiy: you mean "real irrelevant"
 568 2013-05-13 07:25:37 <ezdiy> gmaxwell: for bitcoin, totally
 569 2013-05-13 07:25:41 <ezdiy> for smaller coins, not as much :)
 570 2013-05-13 07:25:47 <gmaxwell> being able, after sending gigabytes of traffic, to kill a single tcp connection— which bitcoin will _instantly_ bring back up... is simply not an attack.
 571 2013-05-13 07:26:05 <cjd> also it's kinda tracable
 572 2013-05-13 07:26:08 <gmaxwell> okay, sure, but this isn't #$scamcoin
 573 2013-05-13 07:26:16 <amiller> is there any way that i can batch a pair of transactions such that the first one maybe doesn't have enough fee but the second one does
 574 2013-05-13 07:26:26 <cjd> people will put their hand on each piece of hardware and follow the hot ones back lol
 575 2013-05-13 07:26:37 brimster has quit ()
 576 2013-05-13 07:26:37 <amiller> like if txA has a 0 fee and a 1 btc txout, and txB spends that 1 btc txout and just has minig fee
 577 2013-05-13 07:26:38 <MC1984> guys cant the government just dos bitcoin lel
 578 2013-05-13 07:26:44 <gmaxwell> No one cares if you attack random altcoins there is basically no technical community behind any of them. There are far easier attacks than sending gigs of traffic.
 579 2013-05-13 07:27:03 <ezdiy> chill out, it's hypothetical
 580 2013-05-13 07:27:16 <amiller> actualy thats a bad example let me revise it
 581 2013-05-13 07:27:20 <ezdiy> people use tcp resets only for port 179 anyway for lame configured borders
 582 2013-05-13 07:27:25 <gmaxwell> amiller: thats called "child pays for parent"
 583 2013-05-13 07:27:32 <amiller> txA has 0 fee and a 0.0001btc dust txout, txB spends the 0.0001 btc and additionally has a 1 btc fee
 584 2013-05-13 07:27:42 <amiller> okay child pays for parent... haven't heard of that but i get it yeah
 585 2013-05-13 07:27:53 <amiller> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/1647
 586 2013-05-13 07:28:13 <gmaxwell> ezdiy: in those cases, people often run ebgp on the interface addresses and you know both IPs, so there is only 16+24 bits of uncertanty, and often somewhat less due to stupid sequence number selection on some routers.
 587 2013-05-13 07:28:14 <ezdiy> cjd: well, frankly its pretty hard :(
 588 2013-05-13 07:28:45 <ezdiy> gmaxwell: + global tables are *huge*
 589 2013-05-13 07:28:49 <ezdiy> gmaxwell: so window scaling :)
 590 2013-05-13 07:29:02 <amiller> i don't know why you'd say that mempool priority is meaningless i think that's really interesting
 591 2013-05-13 07:29:14 <amiller> so if child-pays-for-parent is enabled how does that impact mempool priority reupdating
 592 2013-05-13 07:29:19 <amiller> or is that a separate proposal somewhere
 593 2013-05-13 07:29:34 <ezdiy> cjd: had this sucker a month ago or so
 594 2013-05-13 07:29:43 <gmaxwell> basically everyone runs arbor or some other monitoring system based on sampled netflow/sflow.. finding out where a spoofed attack is coming from is pretty trivial.
 595 2013-05-13 07:29:45 <ezdiy> cjd: reflecting from whole dnssec .cz auths
 596 2013-05-13 07:29:48 <amiller> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=199947.0 replace-by-fee is what i mean
 597 2013-05-13 07:30:01 <cjd> ezdiy: ouch
 598 2013-05-13 07:30:02 <gmaxwell> amiller: mempool priority?!
 599 2013-05-13 07:30:04 <cjd> damn dnssec
 600 2013-05-13 07:30:05 <ezdiy> 500mbpss in, 150gbps out
 601 2013-05-13 07:30:15 <ezdiy> now imagine if he had 10gige ...
 602 2013-05-13 07:30:24 <gmaxwell> amiller: mempool takes everything today that doesn't get rejected as non-standard.
 603 2013-05-13 07:30:30 <cjd> well
 604 2013-05-13 07:30:33 <amiller> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=179612.0
 605 2013-05-13 07:30:39 <amiller> by mempool i mean replace-by-fee
 606 2013-05-13 07:30:40 <cjd> eventually you start making the internet cave in
 607 2013-05-13 07:30:53 <gmaxwell> ezdiy: still probably 150gbps out.. limited by the multipliers.
 608 2013-05-13 07:31:11 <cjd> and then the police who wear suits get involved
 609 2013-05-13 07:31:18 <cjd> and you disappear
 610 2013-05-13 07:31:20 <tumak> gmaxwell: we never kinda traced how much of incoming traffic it was
 611 2013-05-13 07:31:46 <tumak> (i'm involved with the isp)
 612 2013-05-13 07:31:52 <ezdiy> damn retn.net lol
 613 2013-05-13 07:32:03 <cjd> the thing is, once you get to a certain level, you're not really dealing with the same old guys anymore
 614 2013-05-13 07:32:04 root2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 615 2013-05-13 07:32:10 <amiller> okay so really this entire bitcoin paper could just be a part of replace-by-fee behavior
 616 2013-05-13 07:32:15 ardeay_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 617 2013-05-13 07:32:26 <cjd> you get a knock on the door sunday morning and everyone wonders what ever happened to you.....
 618 2013-05-13 07:32:26 root2 has joined
 619 2013-05-13 07:32:26 <amiller> if replace-by-fee were really going to try to be optimal then it should respond to transactions that offer payment to you the relayer, not just the miner fees
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 622 2013-05-13 07:32:50 <amiller> so screw the mining fees if you send me two transactions and one of them pays me, that's the one i prefer especially if i haven't relayed yet
 623 2013-05-13 07:32:53 jeremias has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 624 2013-05-13 07:33:05 dust-otc has joined
 625 2013-05-13 07:33:07 <ezdiy> cjd: nah, this is russian IXes
 626 2013-05-13 07:33:15 <ezdiy> super competetive market of shady bussinesses
 627 2013-05-13 07:33:18 <amiller> and then if there is ever a case where i think i would gain more by bribing someone else with replace-by-fee to relay for me i can build a child-pays-for-parent transaction to loosen them up a bit
 628 2013-05-13 07:33:41 jeremias has joined
 629 2013-05-13 07:33:48 <cjd> i dunno
 630 2013-05-13 07:34:10 <cjd> pretty sure when you start making the wrong people mad, you go away, doesn't matter much where you live
 631 2013-05-13 07:34:32 <cjd> countries cooperate because if this stuff was not checked ever there would be war
 632 2013-05-13 07:34:35 <gmaxwell> amiller: its trivial enough to substute in whatever metric you want for the value to you of a transaction
 633 2013-05-13 07:34:49 <ezdiy> cjd: well, i suppose real attacks originate from hacked isp
 634 2013-05-13 07:35:17 <ezdiy> cjd: olaf got caught because he was stupid enough to brag about it and had clear cause
 635 2013-05-13 07:35:23 Internet13 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 636 2013-05-13 07:35:24 <cjd> if you could really just hold down the entire internet with 500Gb/s of DNS, wouldn't someone have done it already?
 637 2013-05-13 07:35:41 <ezdiy> well, he kinda did
 638 2013-05-13 07:35:44 <MC1984> i dont think you can really cripple "the internet" with a dos
 639 2013-05-13 07:36:08 <cjd> http://blog.cloudflare.com/the-ddos-that-almost-broke-the-internet
 640 2013-05-13 07:36:13 <MC1984> thats something the news said because its scary and people like being scared witless
 641 2013-05-13 07:36:15 <EvanR> if theres a 100 dollar bill on the ground it must be fake because someone would have picked it up already
 642 2013-05-13 07:36:38 <EvanR> carry on
 643 2013-05-13 07:36:49 <ezdiy> cjd: 500gbps sounds like traditional open resolve reflect, not dnssec
 644 2013-05-13 07:36:50 FredEE has joined
 645 2013-05-13 07:36:55 <ezdiy> open resolver has ratio 60, dnssec up to 150
 646 2013-05-13 07:37:03 <MC1984> if theres a 100 dollar on the ground, its attached to fishing line and theres a camera nearby guaranteed
 647 2013-05-13 07:37:42 <amiller> okay so then the right way to look at implementing something with the spirit of this paper
 648 2013-05-13 07:37:55 FredEE has quit (Client Quit)
 649 2013-05-13 07:37:55 <amiller> is to come up with a metric that could realistically help you get your tx processed faster
 650 2013-05-13 07:38:09 <EvanR> MC1984: all the more reason to carry on
 651 2013-05-13 07:38:09 <tumak> amiller: proof of utxo lookup? :)
 652 2013-05-13 07:38:11 <amiller> ok so what if you have a way of observing mining shares
 653 2013-05-13 07:38:22 <amiller> no not processed faster i mean relayed faster and more effectively
 654 2013-05-13 07:38:35 <tumak> why not combine the two?
 655 2013-05-13 07:38:52 seeingidog__ has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 656 2013-05-13 07:38:53 <tumak> your latency + utxo lookup speed
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 658 2013-05-13 07:39:18 <amiller> like the metric should be used to make a decision of this form "if i send node X no additional fee, then i expect to get 10MH/s of mining power on my transaction, but if I send node X a fee of 0.01 btc, I expect to get 1000MH/s of mining power and therefore get confirms faster"
 659 2013-05-13 07:39:42 <cjd> ezdiy: still not all that worried, once you get into that level of attack, you start making enemies you never knew existed. The CIA has an enormous budget and they happen to take at least a passive interest in bitcoin. I know I wouldn't do it ;)
 660 2013-05-13 07:40:04 * ezdiy never ddosed anyone
 661 2013-05-13 07:40:10 <MC1984> i did actually superglue £2 coin to the floor once when i was younger at sat on nearby wall with my mates, it was actually worth the money
 662 2013-05-13 07:40:13 <ezdiy> at best i ran split dns as my irc u@h
 663 2013-05-13 07:40:21 <ezdiy> resolve one ip to ircd, resolve target ip for everyone else
 664 2013-05-13 07:40:26 <ezdiy> then join undernet romanian channel
 665 2013-05-13 07:40:31 <ezdiy> why dirty your hands? :)
 666 2013-05-13 07:40:46 <nsh> cjd-- for posting cloudflare PR
 667 2013-05-13 07:40:55 <MC1984> we lost it when a geezer turned around and came back with a piece of metal for leverage, then went straight in the shop and came out with cans of lager
 668 2013-05-13 07:40:57 <MC1984> good times
 669 2013-05-13 07:41:03 <amiller> and if we had better mining measurements we'd be able to turn that into an experiment
 670 2013-05-13 07:41:20 <cjd> yeap
 671 2013-05-13 07:41:23 <ezdiy> nsh: they still deserve the praise tho :) i mean its still best bang for the buck :/
 672 2013-05-13 07:41:37 <cjd> re the irc trick
 673 2013-05-13 07:41:45 <nsh> only if your medium of praise is expressed via a sharp kick in the nuts
 674 2013-05-13 07:41:57 <amiller> i think it's really dumb that ethical mining pools don't broadcast samples of shares to give the public a better understanding of how mining power is distributed
 675 2013-05-13 07:41:59 <nsh> :)
 676 2013-05-13 07:42:26 <cjd> nsh: got his account cancelled by CF lol
 677 2013-05-13 07:42:45 <cjd> now the whois for efnet shows ip addr so they clearly got fes up with that trick hehe
 678 2013-05-13 07:42:47 <nsh> they didn't believe i was the legitimate owner of the domain MIT.EDU for some reason
 679 2013-05-13 07:42:51 <nsh> :(
 680 2013-05-13 07:42:59 <ezdiy> cjd: damn efnet ruined it with revealing ip of everyone :(
 681 2013-05-13 07:43:09 <cjd> heh
 682 2013-05-13 07:43:23 <tumak> amiller: i think *eventually* there will be working p2pool
 683 2013-05-13 07:43:29 <cjd> trying to convince them to run a cjdns node
 684 2013-05-13 07:43:29 <tumak> amiller: with all the fancy variance subsidy
 685 2013-05-13 07:44:05 <cjd> really I think freenode is more dangerous than efnet these days
 686 2013-05-13 07:44:09 <amiller> this doesn't just apply to p2pool, any pool like btcguild or deepbit or eligius would costlessly be providing a service to the bitcoin community if they provided measurement samples of their wokr
 687 2013-05-13 07:44:18 <amiller> to prove how quickly they process transactions and stuff like that
 688 2013-05-13 07:44:36 <tumak> well, you can do guess work
 689 2013-05-13 07:44:43 <amiller> yes really inaccurate guess work
 690 2013-05-13 07:44:49 <amiller> if a pool wins one block every day then you get one sample per day
 691 2013-05-13 07:44:56 zz_highPriestLOL is now known as highPriestLOL
 692 2013-05-13 07:45:01 <tumak> if you ever manage to indentify the pool
 693 2013-05-13 07:45:03 <amiller> but they could publish streams of shares at various sampling frequencies
 694 2013-05-13 07:45:04 <amiller> like one an hour
 695 2013-05-13 07:45:10 <amiller> or one every two seconds if they really wanted
 696 2013-05-13 07:45:27 <HaltingState> gmaxwell, is there a way to make signatures unique? right now you can take a valid ECC signature and generate another valid signature; is there a way of canonicalizing them?
 697 2013-05-13 07:45:31 <amiller> then if the pool had a big change in hash power it would evident much more quickly
 698 2013-05-13 07:45:41 <tumak> amiller: what about different scheme, pay miners for pow shares, some miniscule amount
 699 2013-05-13 07:45:51 <tumak> amiller: and give them your modded stratum proxy
 700 2013-05-13 07:46:02 <amiller> tumak, yes i'm really in favor of looking at things like that
 701 2013-05-13 07:46:06 <tumak> youre independent of pools, and miners will like the extra buck
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 704 2013-05-13 07:46:45 <amiller> tumak, one problem is that if you pay them for shares but not a winning block, then they might have an incentive to withhold the block
 705 2013-05-13 07:47:00 <amiller> like to withhold an actual winning block, and only tell you about the shares you have to pay for but that didn't really win
 706 2013-05-13 07:47:09 <tumak> amiller: say, you pay 0.1% of the share worth wrt block reward
 707 2013-05-13 07:47:27 <amiller> tumak, sure it would mostly work
 708 2013-05-13 07:47:44 <amiller> tumak, and then what's nice is that you could play a game that looked like satoshi dice except it was actually about purchasing bitcoin minig!
 709 2013-05-13 07:47:53 <nsh> +1
 710 2013-05-13 07:48:02 <amiller> then everyone who wants to play lottery gamble games suddenly has an interest in doing tx validation like a full node
 711 2013-05-13 07:48:34 <amiller> the way i look at satoshidice is that it's a waste of gambling-appetite that should be directed towards bitcoin mining to make bitcoin stronger
 712 2013-05-13 07:49:06 <tumak> btw
 713 2013-05-13 07:49:14 <tumak> i have drafted still proof-of-gamble somewhere
 714 2013-05-13 07:49:22 <amiller> gmaxwell right about now would ordinarily tell me that there was briefly a 'gpumax project' for outsourced mining that pirate ran but that no one cared about
 715 2013-05-13 07:49:24 <tumak> basically, negative house edge
 716 2013-05-13 07:49:33 <tumak> but only if you increase your stakes martingale style :)
 717 2013-05-13 07:49:39 <tumak> gambling-driven inflation
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 719 2013-05-13 07:50:30 <amiller> Luke-Jr, publish shares for eligius
 720 2013-05-13 07:50:39 <Luke-Jr> amiller: ?
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 722 2013-05-13 07:50:51 <amiller> Luke-Jr, don't you think that's a good idea. that way it would be transprent what blocks you were working on and how quickly the pool responds to new txs and stuff
 723 2013-05-13 07:51:05 <amiller> publish a feed on some website even of block shares
 724 2013-05-13 07:51:12 <Luke-Jr> …….
 725 2013-05-13 07:51:15 <amiller> like every 10 seconds, the best share you've seen
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 727 2013-05-13 07:51:30 <tumak> amiller: most pools announce their *current* guessed hash rate
 728 2013-05-13 07:51:34 <tumak> isnt that enough?
 729 2013-05-13 07:51:38 <amiller> no because that's not validatable
 730 2013-05-13 07:51:43 <tumak> blah
 731 2013-05-13 07:51:43 <Luke-Jr> amiller: Eligius's share database has been open to the public for access for about 2 years now, and nobody has ever cared to do anything with it except stats
 732 2013-05-13 07:51:45 <amiller> all it would take is for them to publish their shares
 733 2013-05-13 07:51:48 <tumak> lets assume theyre honest :)
 734 2013-05-13 07:52:03 <tumak> amiller: or better yet, if they lied about it, wouldnt it make the gamble even more interesting?
 735 2013-05-13 07:52:05 <amiller> no my point is that with a trivial amount of new behavior we won't even have to assume that! itw ould be objectively measurable
 736 2013-05-13 07:52:16 <Luke-Jr> amiller: the complete void of interest has led us to seriously consider not even storing the hashes in order to optimize
 737 2013-05-13 07:52:24 <amiller> Luke-Jr, how quickly are they updated? link?
 738 2013-05-13 07:52:33 <Luke-Jr> amiller: realtime
 739 2013-05-13 07:53:10 <Luke-Jr> amiller: the way it works is people request a SSH account on the webserver and just access its db directly
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 741 2013-05-13 07:53:36 <Luke-Jr> I don't know how to navigate the new site, so not sure on link
 742 2013-05-13 07:53:51 <amiller> http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/ this is the closest thing i found
 743 2013-05-13 07:53:54 <amiller> but it specifically doesn't show anything about shares
 744 2013-05-13 07:54:19 <Luke-Jr> it's only accessible via SQL locally
 745 2013-05-13 07:54:19 <amiller> only blocks
 746 2013-05-13 07:54:45 <amiller> ok so is there someone i could donate to that might implement a share stream and add it
 747 2013-05-13 07:54:50 <amiller> i guess if no one cares then no one cares
 748 2013-05-13 07:55:24 <amiller> the other nice thing is that it would be possible to aggregate these streams between pools
 749 2013-05-13 07:55:32 coingenuity has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 750 2013-05-13 07:55:38 <amiller> so what would really support bitcoin here is a microformat for share samples
 751 2013-05-13 07:57:19 coingenuity has joined
 752 2013-05-13 07:57:51 <Luke-Jr> amiller: perhaps a p2p share sharing protocol? ;)
 753 2013-05-13 07:58:02 <Luke-Jr> then, you can have miners use it on transparency-hostile pools
 754 2013-05-13 07:58:12 <amiller> yes exactly
 755 2013-05-13 07:58:13 <Luke-Jr> and transparent pools could make their server a node
 756 2013-05-13 07:58:40 <amiller> right so evne if you're mining on a transparency-hostile pool you can still provide some helpful evidence
 757 2013-05-13 07:58:56 <amiller> perhaps you can't prove what block you're working on but you can still at least make yourself counted
 758 2013-05-13 07:59:28 <amiller> although if you are mining in a transparency-hostile pool perhaps you are also transparency-hostile and don't want to be counted any more precisely than by the actual winning blocks
 759 2013-05-13 07:59:33 <nsh> thanks to cryptography, you can prove almost anything that's true and a good subset of things that are false
 760 2013-05-13 08:00:01 <amiller> nsh well if you are a pool miner on a transparency-hostile pool you juts work on the work you're given, you don't validate the block or anything
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 763 2013-05-13 08:00:31 <amiller> so it's not just about transparency-hostile but more practically about being lazy
 764 2013-05-13 08:00:47 <amiller> don't-know-don't-care-didn't-validate-didn't-even-look did-what-i-was-told
 765 2013-05-13 08:01:11 <amiller> but most pools (i think) aren't like that because that's not ethical or good for bitcoin!
 766 2013-05-13 08:01:14 <flound1129> is there a way to reliably find the block number for a mined block>
 767 2013-05-13 08:01:16 <flound1129> ?
 768 2013-05-13 08:01:30 daktak_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 769 2013-05-13 08:01:58 <amiller> flound1129, like determine the height of a block just given the raw block data?
 770 2013-05-13 08:02:03 <SomeoneWeird> getblockbyhash?
 771 2013-05-13 08:02:14 <SomeoneWeird> dunno if that got added to satoshi client
 772 2013-05-13 08:02:36 <Luke-Jr> amiller: the bigger pools are transparency-hostile
 773 2013-05-13 08:03:39 <flound1129> amiller: yes, given txid
 774 2013-05-13 08:03:51 <amiller> ok well maybe that makes this share-sampling even more important so that the pro-transparency pools can understand themselves better and make the difference clearer
 775 2013-05-13 08:04:15 <flound1129> amiller: or any data that is in the transaction, really
 776 2013-05-13 08:05:18 <amiller> flound1129, yes just do getblock
 777 2013-05-13 08:05:25 <flound1129> getblock with the txid?
 778 2013-05-13 08:05:29 <amiller> oh i see
 779 2013-05-13 08:06:13 <flound1129> error: {"code":-5,"message":"Block not found"}
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 781 2013-05-13 08:07:03 <amiller> flound1129, getrawtransaction <txid> [verbose=1]
 782 2013-05-13 08:07:14 <amiller> so getrawtransaction <txid> 1
 783 2013-05-13 08:07:28 <amiller> that will tell you the blockhash its in then you can use getblock to find the height
 784 2013-05-13 08:08:15 <flound1129> got it, thanks
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 787 2013-05-13 08:13:40 <sturles> What is wrong with this? (Except for the obvious bogus test data.): bitcoind createrawtransaction '[{"txid":c0ffeec0ffeec0ffeec0ffeec0ffeec0ffeec0ffeec0ffeec0ffeec0ffeebeef,"vout":4711}]' '{"1HB5XMLmzFVj8ALj6mfBsbifRoD4miY36v":1.00000000}'
 788 2013-05-13 08:13:46 <sturles> Bitcoind says:
 789 2013-05-13 08:13:47 <sturles> error: Error parsing JSON:[{"txid":c0ffeec0ffeec0ffeec0ffeec0ffeec0ffeec0ffeec0ffeec0ffeec0ffeebeef,"vout":4711}]
 790 2013-05-13 08:14:25 <Luke-Jr> sturles: dblquote the hex
 791 2013-05-13 08:14:50 <sturles> Thanks!
 792 2013-05-13 08:14:58 <sturles> I thought I'd tried everything..
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 799 2013-05-13 08:30:14 <TradeFortress> How do I build bitcoin for Windows on Ubuntu? I've installed mingw32 but mingw32-make says command not found.
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 933 2013-05-13 09:39:25 <Lolcust> Hello dear bitcoin devs! Could someone quickly remind me, what is current bitcoin UTXO size ?
 934 2013-05-13 09:39:45 Miralo has joined
 935 2013-05-13 09:40:36 <davout> is it normal that the block db appears corrupted each time bitcoind isn't cleanly shutdown ?
 936 2013-05-13 09:40:43 <davout> i assume somehow yes, thing is, it forces me to re-download the whole chain each time my computer crashes for whatever reason
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 938 2013-05-13 09:43:24 <31NAAKNLN> davout: Redownload the whole thing? o_O
 939 2013-05-13 09:43:37 <31NAAKNLN> davout: Reindex doesn't fix it?
 940 2013-05-13 09:43:42 <davout> well, that's how i solve it
 941 2013-05-13 09:43:56 <davout> oh yes, i did the reindex, seems to be working
 942 2013-05-13 09:44:00 <davout> still takes ages though
 943 2013-05-13 09:44:20 <31NAAKNLN> Yeah, but not as long as redownloading
 944 2013-05-13 09:45:07 <davout> the difference is very small, it's not the download part that takes a long time, it's the verify/index
 945 2013-05-13 09:45:49 <davout> first 100k blocks verify very fast, and just like the initial chain download it starts to drastically slow down around 180k blocks
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 947 2013-05-13 09:46:22 <cjd> Lolcust: 200ish MB
 948 2013-05-13 09:46:43 <Lolcust> Thanks !
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 950 2013-05-13 09:48:14 <cjd> 31NAAKNLN: nice nick, IIRC you can't get a nick beginning with a number normally, only if you're collision renicked
 951 2013-05-13 09:48:27 <31NAAKNLN> cjd: Indeed
 952 2013-05-13 09:48:38 <31NAAKNLN> cjd: Hitchcock netsplit earlier
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 954 2013-05-13 09:49:23 <cjd> careful not to lose it or you'll have to do that all over again ;)
 955 2013-05-13 09:49:31 <cjd> Lolcust: https://ezcrypt.it/Ps6n#mOWVJkEMKmq2OHg1ooI5NgSm
 956 2013-05-13 09:49:32 <31NAAKNLN> lol
 957 2013-05-13 09:49:42 <cjd> refactoring my allocator
 958 2013-05-13 09:49:52 <31NAAKNLN> cjd: Supposedly you can do it just by sendind NICKs on 2 different connections at the same time
 959 2013-05-13 09:49:59 <31NAAKNLN> But whatever, not really a big deal
 960 2013-05-13 09:50:07 <cjd> yeah, maybe
 961 2013-05-13 09:50:16 <cjd> different servers... might work
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 976 2013-05-13 10:16:55 <TradeFortress> 1 BTC bounty: teach me how to compile Bitcoin-qt
 977 2013-05-13 10:16:58 <TradeFortress> for windows
 978 2013-05-13 10:17:04 <TradeFortress>  /query TradeFortress
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 980 2013-05-13 10:19:06 <CodeShark> oh, doh - for windows...
 981 2013-05-13 10:19:07 <CodeShark> lol
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 985 2013-05-13 10:20:36 <TradeFortress> yeah, CodeShark, windows is horrid -.-
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 987 2013-05-13 10:20:41 <TradeFortress> Why can't it be as simple as qmake make?
 988 2013-05-13 10:21:01 <CodeShark> well, for starters, we're crosscompiling
 989 2013-05-13 10:21:20 <CodeShark> not sure if anyone has managed to build bitcoin-qt for windows IN windows
 990 2013-05-13 10:22:55 michagogo has joined
 991 2013-05-13 10:23:01 <CodeShark> so you'll have to set up mingw and all that other fun stuff :)
 992 2013-05-13 10:23:42 drizztbsd has joined
 993 2013-05-13 10:23:53 <CodeShark> windows is probably the only supported OS for which I have not successfully built bitcoin-qt
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 996 2013-05-13 10:25:24 <t7> bitcoind builds ok though
 997 2013-05-13 10:25:44 <CodeShark> you've built bitcoind for windows IN windows?
 998 2013-05-13 10:25:54 <CodeShark> or using mingw?
 999 2013-05-13 10:27:11 <t7> yeah with mingw
1000 2013-05-13 10:27:36 <t7> you building with msvc?
1001 2013-05-13 10:28:34 <CodeShark> not me
1002 2013-05-13 10:28:34 <da2ce7> Yeah..  I have a fork of bitcoind that compiled in msvc
1003 2013-05-13 10:28:53 <da2ce7> But it failed some of the self tests
1004 2013-05-13 10:28:59 <cjd> xD
1005 2013-05-13 10:29:23 <cjd> da2ce7: don't tell people to use broken compilers :P
1006 2013-05-13 10:29:35 _simmoi has quit (Quit: KVIrc)
1007 2013-05-13 10:30:09 <da2ce7> Ha ha.  I'm not suggesting that ppl use it...  However it is an 'ok' starting point if someone wants to get it working....
1008 2013-05-13 10:30:29 <da2ce7> I haven touched it for months tho.
1009 2013-05-13 10:30:43 <cjd> I don't see why a cross compiling makefile is not possible
1010 2013-05-13 10:30:54 <cjd> I think that's how it's done
1011 2013-05-13 10:31:20 <da2ce7> https://github.com/da2ce7/bitcoin
1012 2013-05-13 10:31:22 <cjd> TradeFortress: what's your currency going to be called?
1013 2013-05-13 10:31:44 <TradeFortress> t7, how'd you do that..
1014 2013-05-13 10:31:50 <da2ce7> The cmake vs support on windows is well and truly very broken.
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1018 2013-05-13 10:32:06 <da2ce7> ×visual studio...
1019 2013-05-13 10:32:11 <cjd> yeah
1020 2013-05-13 10:32:14 <cjd> cmake is crap
1021 2013-05-13 10:32:21 <t7> cmake is good
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1025 2013-05-13 10:35:37 <da2ce7> I'm gonna have another hack at it if I get some more spare time.  I already maintain the Open Transactions visual studio builds.  That build system is looking very neat now.  :-)
1026 2013-05-13 10:36:05 <cjd> user@ubnta8:~/wrk/cjdns$ find ./ -name 'CMakeLists.txt' -exec wc -l {} \; | awk '{sum+=$1}END{print sum}'
1027 2013-05-13 10:36:05 <cjd> 2914
1028 2013-05-13 10:36:09 <cjd> cmake is crap
1029 2013-05-13 10:36:16 <cjd> and I learned that the hard way
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1031 2013-05-13 10:37:01 <da2ce7> Having good support for multiple compilers will bring out bugs in bitcoin.  Helping the whole project.
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1033 2013-05-13 10:37:36 <cjd> multiple standards compliant compilers, yes
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1036 2013-05-13 10:37:49 <cjd> ofc that means clang and gcc
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1040 2013-05-13 10:38:41 <da2ce7> VC 2012 is surprisingly good with following the standards...
1041 2013-05-13 10:38:47 <Luke-Jr> da2ce7: lol
1042 2013-05-13 10:38:56 <davout> da2ce7: what's the chan for OT ? #open-transactions doesn't seem very active...
1043 2013-05-13 10:39:02 <Luke-Jr> da2ce7: how's that variable sized arrays on the stack coming?
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1045 2013-05-13 10:39:13 <cjd> xD
1046 2013-05-13 10:39:42 <cjd> does it actually support c99 yet?
1047 2013-05-13 10:40:01 <da2ce7> #opentransactions
1048 2013-05-13 10:40:01 <Luke-Jr> pretty sure it doesn't
1049 2013-05-13 10:40:41 <cjd> and c99 == 1999 right? which makes it at least 15 years out of date
1050 2013-05-13 10:40:46 <Arnavion> It's not a C compiler
1051 2013-05-13 10:40:50 <Arnavion> Why should it support C99?
1052 2013-05-13 10:41:05 <cjd> it's a trolling tool?
1053 2013-05-13 10:41:15 <Arnavion> It's a C++ compiler
1054 2013-05-13 10:41:26 <Arnavion> Any improvements it'll have will likely be in that space
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1056 2013-05-13 10:41:33 <sipa> Ok, does it support c++11 ?
1057 2013-05-13 10:41:39 <Arnavion> Bits of it
1058 2013-05-13 10:41:42 <t7> a bit last time i checked
1059 2013-05-13 10:41:43 <cjd> :D
1060 2013-05-13 10:42:18 <cjd> sounds like one of those class project compilers... supports "some of c++"
1061 2013-05-13 10:42:21 <Arnavion> There were periods of history where every compiler only supported bits of C++11 too
1062 2013-05-13 10:42:35 <Arnavion> Is it slower to iterate than clang and gcc? Yes. No one's denying that
1063 2013-05-13 10:43:03 <da2ce7> Sipa,  not full. Partial.
1064 2013-05-13 10:43:03 <Arnavion> And the variadic template implementation is a huge ugly hack
1065 2013-05-13 10:43:43 <cjd> ....so by the time it supports C++11 microsoft will have been bought out for their patents?
1066 2013-05-13 10:43:47 <da2ce7> Arnavion: the community preview release has non-hack VT
1067 2013-05-13 10:43:59 <Arnavion> Does it? I haven't been following
1068 2013-05-13 10:44:01 <Arnavion> That's nice
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1072 2013-05-13 10:45:01 <da2ce7> I'm just waiting till they support noexcept...  That will make my life easier
1073 2013-05-13 10:45:31 <cjd> i586-mingw32msvc-g++ :P
1074 2013-05-13 10:45:40 <Luke-Jr> why 586?
1075 2013-05-13 10:46:03 <cjd> because it's ubuntu which is out of date by 5 years because debian
1076 2013-05-13 10:46:12 <cjd> and I'm lazy
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1078 2013-05-13 10:46:26 <Luke-Jr> i c
1079 2013-05-13 10:46:56 <Luke-Jr>  [7] i686-pc-mingw32-4.7.2 *
1080 2013-05-13 10:46:57 <Luke-Jr>  [17] x86_64-w64-mingw32-4.7.2 *
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1082 2013-05-13 10:47:02 <deego> Changing from 0.7.x to 0.8.2 wants to re download 200k(!) blocks. Is that normal?
1083 2013-05-13 10:47:02 <Luke-Jr> ^ my windows compilers
1084 2013-05-13 10:47:25 <Luke-Jr> deego: does it say downloading?
1085 2013-05-13 10:47:26 <cjd> nice
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1087 2013-05-13 10:48:16 <deego> Luke-Jr: Just says "180K blocks remaining." debug.log shows things like received block 00000000010fa1865040651adb05dd0746bc8e5579bec06762cf047e8c2261f2 and orphan blocks, etc.
1088 2013-05-13 10:48:21 <cjd> da2ce7: refactored my allocator: https://ezcrypt.it/Ps6n#mOWVJkEMKmq2OHg1ooI5NgSm
1089 2013-05-13 10:48:28 <Luke-Jr> hmm, I thought it explicitly said "Reindexing" :/
1090 2013-05-13 10:48:56 <deego> Luke-Jr: Ah, either way, glad to learn it's just re-indexing. Thanks.
1091 2013-05-13 10:49:36 <da2ce7> cjd cool,  I'll check it out when I'm not on my mobile phone :-) :-)
1092 2013-05-13 10:49:37 <Luke-Jr> deego: if it doesn't say so, maybe it's not :/
1093 2013-05-13 10:49:43 jMyles has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
1094 2013-05-13 10:50:06 <deego> Luke-Jr: Ah. :| OTOH, it progressed fast. Only 150k blocks remaining now. :)
1095 2013-05-13 10:50:10 <cjd> da2ce7: kk, it's basically the only way I am able to write C
1096 2013-05-13 10:50:23 <Luke-Jr> deego: yes, 0.8.x syncs fast regardless of download/reindex
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1098 2013-05-13 10:50:43 <deego> ah, nice!
1099 2013-05-13 10:51:08 <cjd> 8.x is basically a rewrite of the relevant code
1100 2013-05-13 10:51:33 <cjd> instead of looking in the blockchain to resolve a transaction, it keeps the unspent transaction outputs in a seperate database from the blockchain
1101 2013-05-13 10:51:44 <cjd> the actual blockchain itself is never touched once downloaded
1102 2013-05-13 10:51:45 <da2ce7> Well cya boys,  chat later.
1103 2013-05-13 10:51:49 <cjd> see ya
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1105 2013-05-13 10:52:03 <Luke-Jr> cjd: well, it is in some cases
1106 2013-05-13 10:52:11 <Luke-Jr> just not for transaction checking
1107 2013-05-13 10:53:03 <cjd> ahh
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1109 2013-05-13 10:53:21 <cjd> I was under the impression it could prune trivially just by dropping the old blocks
1110 2013-05-13 10:54:01 <Luke-Jr> for example, getblock RPC
1111 2013-05-13 10:54:06 <Luke-Jr> or blockchain upload ;)
1112 2013-05-13 10:54:33 <cjd> ok ok
1113 2013-05-13 10:54:43 <TradeFortress> I've being repeating, but could anyone please tell me how I can build Bitcoin-qt for Windows
1114 2013-05-13 10:54:47 <TradeFortress> can't find any docs
1115 2013-05-13 10:55:01 <Luke-Jr> TradeFortress: for Windows, or on Windows?
1116 2013-05-13 10:55:02 <cjd> what is your altcoin going to be called?
1117 2013-05-13 10:55:11 <Luke-Jr> cjd: >_<
1118 2013-05-13 10:55:23 <cjd> xD
1119 2013-05-13 10:55:29 <TradeFortress> cjd, fee policy change == alt coin now?
1120 2013-05-13 10:55:38 <TradeFortress> Luke-Jr, For windows, on linux
1121 2013-05-13 10:55:39 <cjd> heh
1122 2013-05-13 10:55:57 rbecker is now known as RBecker
1123 2013-05-13 10:55:59 <Luke-Jr> TradeFortress: https://github.com/devrandom/gitian-builder#readme
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1125 2013-05-13 10:56:03 <cjd> ahh, you're compiling one w/o the patch that made people upset
1126 2013-05-13 10:56:11 <Luke-Jr> TradeFortress: see also bitcoin src's doc/release-process.txt
1127 2013-05-13 10:56:34 <cjd> that's probably a good thing, people should have a choice in the matter
1128 2013-05-13 10:56:38 <Luke-Jr> cjd: shh, don't tell him it's configurable
1129 2013-05-13 10:56:49 <Luke-Jr> that way we gain another gitian builder..
1130 2013-05-13 10:56:56 <cjd> lol
1131 2013-05-13 10:57:00 <TradeFortress> lol Luke-Jr layman -a luke-jr  # needed for vmbuilder
1132 2013-05-13 10:57:39 * Luke-Jr ponders pushing that to the main portage tree
1133 2013-05-13 10:58:41 <TradeFortress> Is it normal for Gitian to take like hours to setup the VMs?
1134 2013-05-13 10:58:52 <cjd> yeeeap
1135 2013-05-13 10:59:51 <TradeFortress> Mkay, well that's great ^^
1136 2013-05-13 11:00:06 <davout> is it normal that the db is seen as corrupted each time bitcoind isn't cleanly shutdown ?
1137 2013-05-13 11:00:16 <davout> and requires reindex
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1139 2013-05-13 11:01:34 <TradeFortress> Wjat
1140 2013-05-13 11:01:41 <TradeFortress> What'd I do after getting the Gitian VMs set up?
1141 2013-05-13 11:02:11 metabyte has quit ()
1142 2013-05-13 11:02:14 <TradeFortress> Because installing Gitian just froze my dev machine, cursor unresponsive and everything.
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1144 2013-05-13 11:04:30 <BlueMatt> TradeFortress, not at all...Ive never seen it take more thatn ~5 minutes
1145 2013-05-13 11:04:32 <BlueMatt> maybe 10
1146 2013-05-13 11:04:53 <BlueMatt> davout: not really, though it has been reported quite a bit (especially on mac...)
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1149 2013-05-13 11:05:38 <davout> BlueMatt: yeah, i have this issue where my mac mini won't wake up from sleep, forcing me to shut it down the old school way, each time i'm fucked and need to reindex everything
1150 2013-05-13 11:06:05 <BlueMatt> yea, apparently osx fails miserably somewhere...though more debugging help would be appreciated
1151 2013-05-13 11:06:21 <BlueMatt> (only gavin uses mac afaik, so we dont get /that/ much debugging there)
1152 2013-05-13 11:06:46 <davout> i can imagine that, but doesn't the same happen on any OS ? like corrupt db on unclean shutdown ?
1153 2013-05-13 11:06:57 <BlueMatt> not really, not
1154 2013-05-13 11:06:58 <BlueMatt> no
1155 2013-05-13 11:07:10 <BlueMatt> usually it recovers fairly gracefully, as any db should
1156 2013-05-13 11:07:23 <davout> so it's specific to osx
1157 2013-05-13 11:07:24 <BlueMatt> maybe have to reimport the block or two it was working on, but other than that, no
1158 2013-05-13 11:07:36 <BlueMatt> afaik, though I havent been keeping up with it as much
1159 2013-05-13 11:07:57 <davout> yeah, that's the behaviour i'd expect
1160 2013-05-13 11:08:21 <davout> didn't know it was specific to osx
1161 2013-05-13 11:09:02 <cjd> perhaps it's specific to the OSX sleep function since mac users seem to put their machines to sleep often
1162 2013-05-13 11:09:26 <davout> cjd: perhaps
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1164 2013-05-13 11:10:05 <davout> when the mac mini manages to wake up from sleep everything is fine and merry
1165 2013-05-13 11:10:07 <BlueMatt> we've seen lots of osx db corruption recently, though its possible its related to https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2405
1166 2013-05-13 11:10:25 <BlueMatt> there have been other non-mac db corruption reported too though
1167 2013-05-13 11:10:47 <BlueMatt> anyway, some of it should be solved, but any additional debugging welcome (plus please test 0.8.2)
1168 2013-05-13 11:11:13 <cjd> ahh so it's very specific corruption
1169 2013-05-13 11:11:23 <davout> is there a way for me to help the debugging? definitely not a C++ guy though :-)
1170 2013-05-13 11:11:39 <BlueMatt> run 0.8.2
1171 2013-05-13 11:11:41 <BlueMatt> rc
1172 2013-05-13 11:11:47 <Luke-Jr> TradeFortress: [10:33:06] <Luke-Jr> TradeFortress: see also bitcoin src's doc/release-process.txt
1173 2013-05-13 11:12:01 <TradeFortress> okay, thanks Luke-Jr
1174 2013-05-13 11:12:48 Belkaar has quit (Quit: quit)
1175 2013-05-13 11:12:49 <TradeFortress> gitian: device is busy. great. screw this
1176 2013-05-13 11:13:06 <BlueMatt> are you using kvm or lxc?
1177 2013-05-13 11:13:09 <davout> BlueMatt: build from master ? there doesn't seem to be a 0.8.2rc branch
1178 2013-05-13 11:13:13 <TradeFortress> BlueMatt, kvm
1179 2013-05-13 11:13:20 <TradeFortress> probably because it froze my PC while installing
1180 2013-05-13 11:13:22 <BlueMatt> davout: yea, 0.8.2rc1 was released a few days ago
1181 2013-05-13 11:13:39 <davout> k i'll do that, but how will it help debugging the issue ?
1182 2013-05-13 11:13:52 <BlueMatt> TradeFortress: are you out of memory/killing swap?
1183 2013-05-13 11:14:06 <BlueMatt> davout: there are some fixes in 0.8.2 that may help, if they dont, it would be nice to know
1184 2013-05-13 11:14:19 <TradeFortress> BlueMatt, Does Gitian builder take more than 4GB?
1185 2013-05-13 11:14:24 <davout> ok, sure i'll do that, sounds like debugging i can do :-)
1186 2013-05-13 11:14:34 <BlueMatt> TradeFortress: depends on what you allocated it with the -m option,
1187 2013-05-13 11:14:52 <TradeFortress> <3, think I'll stay with web dev
1188 2013-05-13 11:15:15 <BlueMatt> davout: also, any concrete steps towards reproduction (ie if you can get it to reliably reproduce under some conditions, post that on a bug that looks like the same thing, otherwise make a new bug)
1189 2013-05-13 11:15:29 <BlueMatt> anything to help someone who knows the code reproduce is helpful
1190 2013-05-13 11:15:33 <davout> k
1191 2013-05-13 11:15:43 <davout> i'll try a kill -9 first
1192 2013-05-13 11:15:43 <cjd> I would be looking for ways to kill the mac kernel
1193 2013-05-13 11:15:49 <cjd> kill -9 won't do it
1194 2013-05-13 11:16:01 <cjd> according to gaven in the big report
1195 2013-05-13 11:16:01 <davout> cjd: have you tried ? ;)
1196 2013-05-13 11:16:02 <BlueMatt> pull out the battery
1197 2013-05-13 11:16:04 <cjd> *bug
1198 2013-05-13 11:16:07 <BlueMatt> oh...wait...
1199 2013-05-13 11:16:11 <davout> cjd: ok, gavin tried
1200 2013-05-13 11:16:39 <cjd> gimme root on a mac, I should be able to panic it in a few hours :)
1201 2013-05-13 11:16:44 <davout> what would the difference between a kill -9 and a hard shutdown be ? kernel unable to flush some sort of buffers ?
1202 2013-05-13 11:16:53 <cjd> yeap
1203 2013-05-13 11:16:55 <cjd> fsync
1204 2013-05-13 11:16:59 <davout> makes sense
1205 2013-05-13 11:17:23 <davout> well, i can reliably reproduce it when i do a hard shutdown :-)
1206 2013-05-13 11:17:37 <BlueMatt> on 0.8.2?
1207 2013-05-13 11:17:42 <davout> ah
1208 2013-05-13 11:17:45 <davout> i'll try that
1209 2013-05-13 11:17:46 <cjd> sudo dtrace -w -n "BEGIN{ panic();}
1210 2013-05-13 11:18:11 <cjd> that's without even having to poke at the insides :)
1211 2013-05-13 11:18:11 * davout proceeds to build 0.8.2
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1213 2013-05-13 11:20:32 <davout> bitcoind without upnp will do fine i presume
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1278 2013-05-13 11:39:11 <davout> warnings, warnings everywhere
1279 2013-05-13 11:39:36 <TradeFortress> Okay, so is there any way to build bitcoin-qt on ubuntu without gitian builder
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1282 2013-05-13 11:39:55 <davout> db.h:42: error: ‘DbEnv’ does not name a type
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1284 2013-05-13 11:40:06 <davout> does that mean leveldb didn't build correctly ?
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1300 2013-05-13 11:54:24 <TradeFortress> screw this, build it for windows for me, I'll pay you 2 BTC
1301 2013-05-13 11:54:33 <TradeFortress> sounds fair?
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1307 2013-05-13 11:56:03 <BlueMatt> build what?
1308 2013-05-13 11:56:23 <BlueMatt> current master == 0.8.2rc1, btw, so if you just want to run master, run that
1309 2013-05-13 11:56:33 <BlueMatt> or, grab builds from jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester
1310 2013-05-13 11:56:39 <BlueMatt> (of any existing pr)
1311 2013-05-13 11:56:42 <cjd> I think he wants a windows build of the latest version w/o the dust patch
1312 2013-05-13 11:56:55 <TradeFortress> and relay mods
1313 2013-05-13 11:57:00 <BlueMatt> why?
1314 2013-05-13 11:57:04 <Luke-Jr> TradeFortress: git branch?
1315 2013-05-13 11:57:17 <TradeFortress> because I want to? :P
1316 2013-05-13 11:57:30 <TradeFortress> Luke-Jr, thanks, 1 sec
1317 2013-05-13 11:57:48 <BlueMatt> if you dont mind skipping pulls after that (there arent many) you can get an old build from jekins.bluematt.me
1318 2013-05-13 11:57:57 <BlueMatt> but, Im not gonna build w/o the relay stuff
1319 2013-05-13 11:58:06 <BlueMatt> ultimately its an anti-ddos measure
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1322 2013-05-13 11:58:42 <cjd> the number of people who download the alt client will be neglegable so IMO the idea is a good one
1323 2013-05-13 11:59:19 alaricsp_ is now known as alaricsp
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1325 2013-05-13 11:59:35 <BlueMatt> it also limits satoshi-dice spam
1326 2013-05-13 11:59:45 <cjd> yeap
1327 2013-05-13 11:59:51 <cjd> all serious miners will use it
1328 2013-05-13 11:59:52 <TradeFortress> but I like satoshi dice :/
1329 2013-05-13 11:59:56 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: does it? I thought Gavin picked the limit so it didn't affect DP
1330 2013-05-13 12:00:03 <Luke-Jr> TradeFortress: then you hate Bitcoin :/
1331 2013-05-13 12:00:11 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: it limits their ability to pay out 1 satoshi "you lost" outputs
1332 2013-05-13 12:00:13 <TradeFortress> Luke-Jr, I don't, they pay out 5k satoshi now
1333 2013-05-13 12:00:21 <TradeFortress> they paid out 5k satoshi for a while actually
1334 2013-05-13 12:00:22 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: DP is doing 5000 satoshi "you lost" spam now
1335 2013-05-13 12:00:24 <davout> Luke-Jr: either you're with me or against me. Introducing Luke-Jr
1336 2013-05-13 12:00:27 <BlueMatt> oh ffs
1337 2013-05-13 12:00:28 <TradeFortress> DP = ?
1338 2013-05-13 12:00:36 ralphtheninja has joined
1339 2013-05-13 12:00:38 <Luke-Jr> DeadPuppies aka SatoshiDice
1340 2013-05-13 12:00:49 <cjd> =)
1341 2013-05-13 12:01:01 <cjd> SatoshiDust
1342 2013-05-13 12:01:11 <TradeFortress> mhm, every time you pay satoshidice, satoshi kills a puppy?
1343 2013-05-13 12:01:15 <davout> TradeFortress: Luke-Jr wants an open currency, but one on which he gets veto rights
1344 2013-05-13 12:01:25 <davout> Luke-Jr: isn't it ?
1345 2013-05-13 12:01:28 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: AFAIK the only people actually affected by this is ASICMiner (dust spam information) and coloured coins guys
1346 2013-05-13 12:01:37 <Luke-Jr> davout: no
1347 2013-05-13 12:01:39 <BlueMatt> ok, well as it should be
1348 2013-05-13 12:01:57 <cjd> colorcoins are not really affected
1349 2013-05-13 12:01:59 <davout> anyway
1350 2013-05-13 12:02:08 <Luke-Jr> TradeFortress: every time you pay DP, you participate in their DDoS against bitcoin
1351 2013-05-13 12:02:16 <cjd> just some implementations which are kind of naive
1352 2013-05-13 12:02:33 <TradeFortress> Luke-Jr, 5k satoshi should be sufficiently spendable in a couple of years
1353 2013-05-13 12:02:35 <Luke-Jr> cjd: CC aren't affected, but CC *guys* are because they have to fix their crap
1354 2013-05-13 12:02:42 <Luke-Jr> TradeFortress: it's still a DDoS
1355 2013-05-13 12:02:47 <cjd> =]
1356 2013-05-13 12:02:47 <Luke-Jr> even if it was 1 BTC each tx
1357 2013-05-13 12:03:03 <cjd> ahh, no problem
1358 2013-05-13 12:03:11 <TradeFortress> Luke-Jr, let's say however unlikely eBay accepted bitcoin
1359 2013-05-13 12:03:12 ralphtheninja has quit (Client Quit)
1360 2013-05-13 12:03:14 <cjd> we can just sweep alll of the dust into a pike
1361 2013-05-13 12:03:17 <cjd> *pile
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1363 2013-05-13 12:03:20 <cjd> and forget about it
1364 2013-05-13 12:03:21 <cjd> :)
1365 2013-05-13 12:03:23 <TradeFortress> 75% of blockchain TXes are now for ebay
1366 2013-05-13 12:03:25 <TradeFortress> ebay == ddos?
1367 2013-05-13 12:03:36 <BlueMatt> TradeFortress: invalid argument
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1369 2013-05-13 12:03:45 <davout> BlueMatt: how so ?
1370 2013-05-13 12:03:45 <BlueMatt> its less a matter of total load, and more a matter of doing reasonable things
1371 2013-05-13 12:03:45 <Luke-Jr> TradeFortress: and 400% more real humans run Bitcoin clients to support this added load
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1373 2013-05-13 12:04:09 <Luke-Jr> TradeFortress: and 400% more real developers contribute to the development of Bitcoin to handle the load
1374 2013-05-13 12:04:10 <BlueMatt> dp does completely unreasonable things (like pay out tiny dust to notify users of loss, refuse to use compressed pubkeys for...?, etc)
1375 2013-05-13 12:04:19 <davout> thinking "reasonable things" is an objective measurement is foolish
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1379 2013-05-13 12:04:36 <BlueMatt> its not, but that doesnt mean its not a reasonable measurement
1380 2013-05-13 12:04:48 <Luke-Jr> davout: it's also a matter of social contract. Bitcoin users have agreed to process the blockchain for financial transfers. They have NOT all agreed to relay or store mere information.
1381 2013-05-13 12:04:51 <BlueMatt> if 100% of developers agree that you are being stupid, you are probably being stupid...
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1384 2013-05-13 12:05:03 <TradeFortress> at what point is it dust, vs real TX?
1385 2013-05-13 12:05:19 <Luke-Jr> TradeFortress: it doesn't matter if it's dust or not, nearly as much as whether it's information or not
1386 2013-05-13 12:05:21 <davout> Luke-Jr: i agree to store SD's txes by not walking away from bitcoin and making my own chain, so do you
1387 2013-05-13 12:05:34 <CodeShark> if deadpuppies is really such a serious problem, the protocol should be designed to prevent such things
1388 2013-05-13 12:05:34 <Luke-Jr> davout: no.
1389 2013-05-13 12:05:42 <cjd> TradeFortress: takes more than 1/3 of the actual money worth of fees to spend the transaction, meaning it's not really spendable so it sits there forever
1390 2013-05-13 12:05:43 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: it is!
1391 2013-05-13 12:05:48 <TradeFortress> CodeShark, Huh, I'm sure Satoshi has thought of everything Bitcoin was going to be used for
1392 2013-05-13 12:05:54 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr: apparently it isn't :)
1393 2013-05-13 12:05:57 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: the protocol has humans run mining nodes which are supposed to be responsible for filtering out spam
1394 2013-05-13 12:06:04 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: the human component is malfunctioning
1395 2013-05-13 12:06:13 <CodeShark> TradeFortress: well, it should be adapted to deal with such issues
1396 2013-05-13 12:06:13 <TradeFortress> Luke-Jr, Your pool blocks SD txes right?
1397 2013-05-13 12:06:14 <BlueMatt> CodeShark: we tried, but enough non-devs complained for various reasons...
1398 2013-05-13 12:06:18 <davout> Luke-Jr: lol
1399 2013-05-13 12:06:19 <Luke-Jr> TradeFortress: yes
1400 2013-05-13 12:06:34 <TradeFortress> does it also block diceoncrack
1401 2013-05-13 12:06:36 <TradeFortress> cause it does the same thing
1402 2013-05-13 12:06:37 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr: the human component can always be expected to malfunction :p
1403 2013-05-13 12:06:41 <Luke-Jr> TradeFortress: nhoi
1404 2013-05-13 12:06:51 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: :/
1405 2013-05-13 12:07:05 <Luke-Jr> TradeFortress: btw, I'm not refusing to build your branch :P
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1408 2013-05-13 12:07:26 <davout> how is it reasonable to expect a mass of random people to behave according to some imaginary "social contract" ?
1409 2013-05-13 12:07:28 <TradeFortress> you convinced me it's a bad idea now
1410 2013-05-13 12:07:29 <TradeFortress> thanks
1411 2013-05-13 12:07:31 <CodeShark> BlueMatt: what types of complaints?
1412 2013-05-13 12:07:51 <BlueMatt> anyway, those who are using the chain for storage are going to fail...when people switch to pruned nodes, their data will disappear (I wanna switch to verifiable computing to do initial chain download, then the data doesnt exist anywhere, but everyone knows its legit :) )
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1414 2013-05-13 12:08:13 <BlueMatt> but thats a few years off (verifyable computing is still too young)
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1416 2013-05-13 12:08:30 <cjd> TradeFortress: the really important thing about dust is that it's so small that the effort by the person *receiving* it to spend it is more than the dust itself, so it just sits there forever clogging up the utxo set
1417 2013-05-13 12:08:31 <BlueMatt> CodeShark: read above :P
1418 2013-05-13 12:08:36 <TradeFortress> BlueMatt, You mean you will start pruning transactions?
1419 2013-05-13 12:08:40 <TradeFortress> unspent?
1420 2013-05-13 12:08:50 <BlueMatt> either spent or ones that clearly cant be spent
1421 2013-05-13 12:09:14 <TradeFortress> so.. people are going to end up losing bitcoins to their name, however trivial it is
1422 2013-05-13 12:09:21 <BlueMatt> no
1423 2013-05-13 12:09:22 <cjd> no
1424 2013-05-13 12:09:31 <BlueMatt> if it cant be spent you cant lose it
1425 2013-05-13 12:09:31 <cjd> My evil pruning idea they would :]
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1427 2013-05-13 12:09:46 <davout> BlueMatt: define "can't be spent" i'm genuinely interested
1428 2013-05-13 12:09:47 <TradeFortress> 1 satoshi can be spent if you get a co-operating miner :P
1429 2013-05-13 12:09:51 Jasmin68k has joined
1430 2013-05-13 12:10:14 <davout> tell a miner he gets 50% in fees of your tiny tx, why would he refuse
1431 2013-05-13 12:10:15 <BlueMatt> davout: ie the script is unsolvable, or its clearly a bullshit output that has no associated privkey
1432 2013-05-13 12:10:41 <davout> BlueMatt: ooh, these ones, i thought you were talking about dust txouts
1433 2013-05-13 12:10:42 <BlueMatt> things that could be spent by a cooperating miner can ofc not be pruned, but easily stored such that your data isnt immediately available without special tools
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1435 2013-05-13 12:10:55 <davout> BlueMatt: that sounds like the real solution
1436 2013-05-13 12:11:18 <TradeFortress> hmm
1437 2013-05-13 12:11:25 <TradeFortress> can't wait till bitcointalk starts FUD about it
1438 2013-05-13 12:11:27 <BlueMatt> hell, if verifiable computing gets another few years of research, we can remove the blockchain everywhere and only leave the utxo set
1439 2013-05-13 12:11:53 t7 has joined
1440 2013-05-13 12:12:04 <cjd> verifiable computing?
1441 2013-05-13 12:12:05 <TradeFortress> btw, what ever happened to human readable protocols
1442 2013-05-13 12:12:13 <TradeFortress> addresses*
1443 2013-05-13 12:12:27 <cjd> can't you just throw the chain->utxoset conversion into the gitian build?
1444 2013-05-13 12:12:49 <BlueMatt> cjd: https://www.google.ch/search?q=verifyable+computing
1445 2013-05-13 12:12:59 <BlueMatt> cjd: you could, but it weakens the trust model
1446 2013-05-13 12:13:14 <BlueMatt> right now, you just have to init trust using genesis block (and you can run without checkpoints)
1447 2013-05-13 12:13:15 <TradeFortress> cjd, bad idea
1448 2013-05-13 12:13:19 swulf-- has joined
1449 2013-05-13 12:13:21 <michagogo> [14:42:00] <Luke-Jr> davout: it's also a matter of social contract. Bitcoin users have agreed to process the blockchain for financial transfers. They have NOT all agreed to relay or store mere information.
1450 2013-05-13 12:13:22 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: Weren't you the one that stuffed the blockchain with religious stuff?
1451 2013-05-13 12:13:23 <TradeFortress> unless you want an gitian build every 3 seconds?
1452 2013-05-13 12:13:35 <BlueMatt> TradeFortress: wat?
1453 2013-05-13 12:13:36 <BlueMatt> no
1454 2013-05-13 12:13:42 <davout> michagogo: yep
1455 2013-05-13 12:13:44 <TradeFortress> Luke-Jr also 51% BBQcoin
1456 2013-05-13 12:13:55 t7` has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1457 2013-05-13 12:14:35 <Luke-Jr> TradeFortress: no need for lies
1458 2013-05-13 12:15:06 <TradeFortress> "Meh, I don't deserve credit for shutting down this scam. I just did the fun part, writing the code."
1459 2013-05-13 12:15:10 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: not quite the same thing. I put the religious stuff in the tiny area explicitly for brief messages like that.
1460 2013-05-13 12:15:28 treaki__ has quit (Quit: Verlassend)
1461 2013-05-13 12:15:49 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: The I thought that field was for a nonce
1462 2013-05-13 12:15:56 <michagogo> Not any meaningful stuff?
1463 2013-05-13 12:16:00 <sipa> and it's limited to 2-100 bytes
1464 2013-05-13 12:16:06 <cjd> didn't used to be that way
1465 2013-05-13 12:16:12 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: Satoshi himself set the precedent there, with political stuff in the Genesis block
1466 2013-05-13 12:16:21 <TradeFortress> verification stuff
1467 2013-05-13 12:16:25 <michagogo> Orly?
1468 2013-05-13 12:16:27 <BlueMatt> meh, that can be pruned
1469 2013-05-13 12:16:31 <cjd> ^
1470 2013-05-13 12:16:33 <CodeShark> I'm probably far more guilty of sticking crap into the block chain than Luke-Jr :p
1471 2013-05-13 12:16:36 <davout> Luke-Jr: didn't satoshi sign the social contract ;)
1472 2013-05-13 12:16:45 <sipa> michagogo: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Genesis_block
1473 2013-05-13 12:16:52 <cjd> the utxo stuff is annoying because everyone absolutely has to carry that around
1474 2013-05-13 12:16:54 <TradeFortress> I guess you can also pass information via the hash
1475 2013-05-13 12:17:02 <TradeFortress> Would be very computational expensive
1476 2013-05-13 12:17:20 <BlueMatt> cjd: except for spv nodes...
1477 2013-05-13 12:17:29 <TradeFortress> cmake works with bitcoin?
1478 2013-05-13 12:17:34 <cjd> which are pretty unsafe IMO
1479 2013-05-13 12:17:34 <michagogo> TradeFortress: a la vanitygen?
1480 2013-05-13 12:17:41 <Luke-Jr> TradeFortress: no
1481 2013-05-13 12:17:45 <TradeFortress> michagogo, yup, except only useful as PoC
1482 2013-05-13 12:18:19 <michagogo> Wouldn't that effectively increase the difficulty you're using?
1483 2013-05-13 12:18:32 <TradeFortress> For transactions, not blocks.
1484 2013-05-13 12:18:42 <michagogo> Oh
1485 2013-05-13 12:18:49 <CodeShark> the current state of the utxo is what should get somehow hashed into the block headers :)
1486 2013-05-13 12:18:56 <sipa> ^
1487 2013-05-13 12:19:04 <cjd> +1
1488 2013-05-13 12:19:13 <davout> yep
1489 2013-05-13 12:19:15 <cjd> except without the dust
1490 2013-05-13 12:19:19 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: merged mining style ;)
1491 2013-05-13 12:19:20 * cjd runs
1492 2013-05-13 12:19:41 <Luke-Jr> but, not the block headers. no room to change those.
1493 2013-05-13 12:19:55 <michagogo> The first 50BTC block reward went to address 1A1zP1eP5QGefi2DMPTfTL5SLmv7DivfNa, though this reward can't be spent due to a quirk in the way that the genesis block is expressed in the code (this may have been intentional).
1494 2013-05-13 12:19:55 <michagogo> [edit]
1495 2013-05-13 12:20:00 <michagogo> What way is that?
1496 2013-05-13 12:20:11 <TradeFortress> I'd like to know that too, wasn't that just a normal escda keypair
1497 2013-05-13 12:20:14 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: it's missing from  the datbase
1498 2013-05-13 12:20:15 saracen has joined
1499 2013-05-13 12:20:24 <michagogo> o_O
1500 2013-05-13 12:20:35 <Luke-Jr> so if a node tries to verify it exists, it will return negative
1501 2013-05-13 12:20:53 <TradeFortress> So what you are saying is..
1502 2013-05-13 12:20:54 <michagogo> Odd
1503 2013-05-13 12:21:02 <TradeFortress> I threw my coins away by sending it to the genesis coinbase.
1504 2013-05-13 12:21:09 <michagogo> TradeFortress: No
1505 2013-05-13 12:21:12 <Luke-Jr> TradeFortress: no, the key is valid
1506 2013-05-13 12:21:12 <TradeFortress> Wait, I think the private key ownder can still spend it.
1507 2013-05-13 12:21:19 <michagogo> The key is valid
1508 2013-05-13 12:21:28 Guest89554 is now known as Jezzz
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1510 2013-05-13 12:21:35 Jezzz has joined
1511 2013-05-13 12:21:37 <michagogo> The 12.01519969 BTC sent to that address is spendable with the ney
1512 2013-05-13 12:21:39 <michagogo> key*
1513 2013-05-13 12:21:41 zz_savannarola is now known as highPriestLOL
1514 2013-05-13 12:21:42 <michagogo> But it never has been
1515 2013-05-13 12:21:43 <Luke-Jr> the transaction id in the genesis block just isn't in the database of coins
1516 2013-05-13 12:23:16 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1517 2013-05-13 12:23:17 <Luke-Jr> if DHL says "With delivery courier", does that mean I get it today? <.<
1518 2013-05-13 12:23:19 <TradeFortress> i should write a bot
1519 2013-05-13 12:23:26 elgrecoF- has quit (Changing host)
1520 2013-05-13 12:23:26 elgrecoF- has joined
1521 2013-05-13 12:23:33 <TradeFortress> detects TXes from satoshi's known addresses, dumps all coins on gox when that happens
1522 2013-05-13 12:23:42 <TradeFortress> Luke-Jr, Your BFL asic?
1523 2013-05-13 12:23:51 <davout> Luke-Jr: your SR delivery ? :-)
1524 2013-05-13 12:23:52 <Luke-Jr> TradeFortress: no, that's my ASICMiner Emerald
1525 2013-05-13 12:24:09 <TradeFortress> Oh, well thanks for getting coinjedi to declare it as a push. I disagree w/ it, but I bet 5 BTC months ago
1526 2013-05-13 12:24:25 <TradeFortress> and eh, 5 free coins I thought I lost
1527 2013-05-13 12:24:45 <Luke-Jr> TradeFortress: shrug, IMO the BFL side should have won. but not going to get into it.
1528 2013-05-13 12:25:03 ovidiusoft has joined
1529 2013-05-13 12:25:09 <TradeFortress> yeah, anyways, what btc clients other than blockchain.info use change addr as sending addr
1530 2013-05-13 12:25:22 <sipa> multibit and android wallet
1531 2013-05-13 12:25:48 simmoi has joined
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1533 2013-05-13 12:25:48 simmoi has joined
1534 2013-05-13 12:26:38 elgrecoF- is now known as elgrecoFL
1535 2013-05-13 12:26:59 <TradeFortress> Oh, so I can't write a "Blockchain.info detector" and scare people :P
1536 2013-05-13 12:27:12 * Luke-Jr can't wait until 0.8.2 becomes widespread enough that ASICMiner has to stop sending him dust -.-
1537 2013-05-13 12:27:31 <TradeFortress> Luke-Jr, miners might still want the fees
1538 2013-05-13 12:27:41 <TradeFortress> and uh
1539 2013-05-13 12:27:56 <TradeFortress> asicminer was going to switch to solo mining, no? they'd mine those TXes themselves
1540 2013-05-13 12:28:03 <Luke-Jr> TradeFortress: true :/
1541 2013-05-13 12:28:10 <Luke-Jr> sigh
1542 2013-05-13 12:28:56 <TradeFortress> anyone still run satoshi clients?
1543 2013-05-13 12:29:00 <TradeFortress> v0.3.x or so
1544 2013-05-13 12:29:42 <sipa> you mean "versions of the reference client when satoshi was still involved" ?
1545 2013-05-13 12:29:51 <TradeFortress> Yes.
1546 2013-05-13 12:30:19 <TradeFortress> It'd be amazing if ten years later, the same client still works, but that's not going to happen
1547 2013-05-13 12:30:39 <CodeShark> the same client will already break
1548 2013-05-13 12:30:59 <sipa> as of may 15, it's possible that many (all?) old versions will break
1549 2013-05-13 12:31:38 <michagogo> Well, not break
1550 2013-05-13 12:31:43 <michagogo> Just fork
1551 2013-05-13 12:31:59 <Luke-Jr> well, if you extend "satoshi clients" to mean "wxBitcoin", then technically someone could get away with 0.4.9
1552 2013-05-13 12:32:13 <michagogo> If you stay on an old version, you could even go back to CPU mining :-D
1553 2013-05-13 12:32:15 <michagogo> :-P
1554 2013-05-13 12:32:27 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: don't bet on that
1555 2013-05-13 12:32:34 <TradeFortress> sipa, could apply custom patch
1556 2013-05-13 12:32:36 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: it'd take centuries I think
1557 2013-05-13 12:32:48 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: You think there will be significant mining power on pre-0.8?
1558 2013-05-13 12:32:51 <CodeShark> not if you're the only one in your network, Luke :)
1559 2013-05-13 12:33:01 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: the difficulty has to adjust!
1560 2013-05-13 12:33:03 <michagogo> Oh, right -- you'd first need enough power to hit that 2016 mark
1561 2013-05-13 12:33:05 FabianB has joined
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1563 2013-05-13 12:33:06 FabianB has joined
1564 2013-05-13 12:33:19 Phil21_ has joined
1565 2013-05-13 12:33:20 <Luke-Jr> and each 2016 mark only drops to 25% of the previous diff
1566 2013-05-13 12:33:30 <michagogo> Ah
1567 2013-05-13 12:33:52 <TradeFortress> Ah, I remember the good ol' days when the client CPU mined for you. By default.
1568 2013-05-13 12:33:53 <TradeFortress> when the network difficulty wasn't MILLIONS
1569 2013-05-13 12:34:02 alaricsp_ has joined
1570 2013-05-13 12:34:03 cjd_ has joined
1571 2013-05-13 12:34:08 <CodeShark> I never got to CPU-mine bitcoin :(
1572 2013-05-13 12:34:10 <CodeShark> only testnet
1573 2013-05-13 12:34:12 <CodeShark> and litecoin
1574 2013-05-13 12:34:14 <Luke-Jr> I remember when I could solo mine on a single 5850 :p
1575 2013-05-13 12:34:20 drizzt_ has joined
1576 2013-05-13 12:34:22 <sipa> so it'd take almost 25k blocks to reduce the difficulty to 1
1577 2013-05-13 12:34:33 <TradeFortress> mods! ban CodeShark! he mentioned litecoin!!!!
1578 2013-05-13 12:34:36 * sipa solo-mined on a 4870
1579 2013-05-13 12:34:37 gribble has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1580 2013-05-13 12:34:49 <TradeFortress> Luke-Jr, I did that for a while!
1581 2013-05-13 12:34:58 <CodeShark> I'm so jealous of you guys
1582 2013-05-13 12:35:04 <Luke-Jr> I gave up after a few weeks and started Eligius <.<
1583 2013-05-13 12:35:08 <CodeShark> by the time I got into bitcoin, even GPU mining was hard
1584 2013-05-13 12:35:09 PRab_ has joined
1585 2013-05-13 12:35:11 altgribble` has joined
1586 2013-05-13 12:35:18 <TradeFortress> don't be, i lost all my old coins
1587 2013-05-13 12:35:25 <Luke-Jr> heh
1588 2013-05-13 12:35:32 <TradeFortress> few thousand :S
1589 2013-05-13 12:35:43 <Luke-Jr> I so wish I didn't panic sell at $44
1590 2013-05-13 12:35:46 <michagogo> A few thousand? o_O
1591 2013-05-13 12:35:47 <sipa> CodeShark: when was that?
1592 2013-05-13 12:35:53 <michagogo> On mainchain?!?
1593 2013-05-13 12:35:53 <CodeShark> summer of 2011
1594 2013-05-13 12:35:55 makomk_ has joined
1595 2013-05-13 12:36:09 <TradeFortress> yes, mainchain, actually I think I might be able to still dig through my older addresses
1596 2013-05-13 12:36:10 phma has joined
1597 2013-05-13 12:36:21 <michagogo> o_O
1598 2013-05-13 12:36:22 gmaxwell has joined
1599 2013-05-13 12:36:24 <michagogo> ;;ticker
1600 2013-05-13 12:36:24 jaakkos has joined
1601 2013-05-13 12:36:26 <altgribble`> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 118.00001, Best ask: 118.44000, Bid-ask spread: 0.43999, Last trade: 118.00000, 24 hour volume: 23898.59312157, 24 hour low: 112.40000, 24 hour high: 118.88000, 24 hour vwap: 115.73698
1602 2013-05-13 12:36:30 <Luke-Jr> TradeFortress: thousands of BTC, might be worth extreme measures to recover..
1603 2013-05-13 12:36:35 cut_ has joined
1604 2013-05-13 12:36:37 <michagogo> Yeah, seriously
1605 2013-05-13 12:36:46 gmaxwell is now known as Guest53109
1606 2013-05-13 12:36:53 <sipa> CodeShark: that's when i sold my GPU mining hardware :p
1607 2013-05-13 12:37:01 <CodeShark> I never even got to GPU mine
1608 2013-05-13 12:37:10 <CodeShark> I've never gotten to mine at all with bitcoin, actually
1609 2013-05-13 12:37:16 <CodeShark> only testnet
1610 2013-05-13 12:37:25 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: aww, you're invoking my sympathies
1611 2013-05-13 12:37:34 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: paste an address :P
1612 2013-05-13 12:37:38 <CodeShark> lol
1613 2013-05-13 12:37:51 <TradeFortress> eww, that is so sad
1614 2013-05-13 12:37:55 <CodeShark> I've still managed to get a coin or two doing other stuff - but never mining
1615 2013-05-13 12:37:57 <TradeFortress> buy an ASICMINER *right now*
1616 2013-05-13 12:38:02 <TradeFortress> or buy some shares.
1617 2013-05-13 12:38:07 fishfish has quit (Quit: Zzzzz..zzzzz)
1618 2013-05-13 12:38:09 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: srsly
1619 2013-05-13 12:38:17 K1773R_ has joined
1620 2013-05-13 12:38:32 <TradeFortress> CodeShark, I know, stripping BTC is very lucrative
1621 2013-05-13 12:38:40 <CodeShark> haha
1622 2013-05-13 12:38:46 <kuzetsa> stripping [for] BTC?! =o.O=
1623 2013-05-13 12:38:47 <CodeShark> I think people would pay me not to do that
1624 2013-05-13 12:38:49 sbbodhtimrj has joined
1625 2013-05-13 12:38:50 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: address!
1626 2013-05-13 12:38:55 <Luke-Jr> LOL
1627 2013-05-13 12:39:03 <TradeFortress> i can't believed it
1628 2013-05-13 12:39:06 <TradeFortress> i laughed at an irc line
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1652 2013-05-13 12:39:17 sbbodhtimrj is now known as jrmithdobbs
1653 2013-05-13 12:39:17 K1773R_ is now known as K1773R
1654 2013-05-13 12:39:27 AndChat64721 has quit (Write error: Broken pipe)
1655 2013-05-13 12:39:28 cut_ is now known as cut
1656 2013-05-13 12:39:29 <TradeFortress> i usually don't have any sense of humor at all
1657 2013-05-13 12:39:30 <TradeFortress> oh ney net split
1658 2013-05-13 12:39:30 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: see what happens when you refuse to paste an addres?
1659 2013-05-13 12:39:32 Arnavion has joined
1660 2013-05-13 12:39:32 PRab_ is now known as PRab
1661 2013-05-13 12:39:49 <Luke-Jr> TradeFortress: that was no netsplit
1662 2013-05-13 12:39:54 <TradeFortress> What was it?
1663 2013-05-13 12:39:59 <Luke-Jr> ping timeouts
1664 2013-05-13 12:40:01 <Luke-Jr> <.<
1665 2013-05-13 12:40:19 brocktice has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1666 2013-05-13 12:40:25 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: you really should hurry with that address before I change my mind
1667 2013-05-13 12:40:29 <CodeShark> lol
1668 2013-05-13 12:40:29 <TradeFortress> how does that happen >;
1669 2013-05-13 12:40:29 <CodeShark> 1P15fp6Bbr5fkXqKkn7ESj1jjJTxpW7Ef
1670 2013-05-13 12:40:29 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1671 2013-05-13 12:40:34 <CodeShark> there! :)
1672 2013-05-13 12:40:35 k9quaint has joined
1673 2013-05-13 12:40:39 jMyles has joined
1674 2013-05-13 12:40:43 <TradeFortress> lol, empty
1675 2013-05-13 12:41:06 <TradeFortress> soo uh
1676 2013-05-13 12:41:16 <TradeFortress> gitian builder was made because of bitcoin?
1677 2013-05-13 12:41:24 daybyter has joined
1678 2013-05-13 12:41:27 <Luke-Jr> TradeFortress: more or less
1679 2013-05-13 12:41:34 <TradeFortress> makes sense from commits
1680 2013-05-13 12:41:35 windo has joined
1681 2013-05-13 12:41:58 TheSeven has joined
1682 2013-05-13 12:42:13 <TradeFortress> I wonder if I should actually learn C and C++ for reals.
1683 2013-05-13 12:42:15 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/userstats.php/1P15fp6Bbr5fkXqKkn7ESj1jjJTxpW7Ef
1684 2013-05-13 12:42:38 <TradeFortress> lol CodeShark
1685 2013-05-13 12:43:04 <Luke-Jr>  BFL 0:  49.0C/61.0C   | 29.52/29.46/29.24Gh/s | A:734 R:0 HW:41 U:376.14/m
1686 2013-05-13 12:43:16 <CodeShark> wow, I'm doing 6 GH/s?
1687 2013-05-13 12:43:25 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: nearly 30 :P
1688 2013-05-13 12:43:36 <TradeFortress> is BFL paying for your electricity Luke-Jr
1689 2013-05-13 12:43:42 <CodeShark> nice - lol
1690 2013-05-13 12:43:44 <Luke-Jr> TradeFortress: for that ASIC, yes
1691 2013-05-13 12:43:47 davout has joined
1692 2013-05-13 12:43:48 <TradeFortress> ah
1693 2013-05-13 12:43:48 * michagogo is confused
1694 2013-05-13 12:43:52 fishfish has joined
1695 2013-05-13 12:44:00 <TradeFortress> BREAK IT :#
1696 2013-05-13 12:44:00 hopey has joined
1697 2013-05-13 12:44:29 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: now the question is - how long will I forget to change it back? :P
1698 2013-05-13 12:44:51 <TradeFortress> Luke-Jr, hey, at least have to be 0.01, you don't want to spam the blockchain do ya
1699 2013-05-13 12:45:03 * michagogo waves a hand in front of Luke-Jr
1700 2013-05-13 12:45:03 <michagogo> Your address is 1EbB159GYoqFAjANEbE3FqYZFrDY1XX2Wb.
1701 2013-05-13 12:45:19 <TradeFortress> not going to happen
1702 2013-05-13 12:45:27 <TradeFortress> buy your own ASIC[miner shares]
1703 2013-05-13 12:45:39 <TradeFortress> or, well, wonder when avalon is going to ship batch 2
1704 2013-05-13 12:45:57 <CodeShark> at least I got to virtually mine ASIC :)
1705 2013-05-13 12:45:57 <Luke-Jr> lol
1706 2013-05-13 12:45:59 JDuke128 has joined
1707 2013-05-13 12:46:02 <CodeShark> thanks, luke :)
1708 2013-05-13 12:46:19 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: consider it a donation toward your work ;)
1709 2013-05-13 12:47:13 <TradeFortress> hmm
1710 2013-05-13 12:47:15 vrs has quit (Changing host)
1711 2013-05-13 12:47:15 vrs has joined
1712 2013-05-13 12:47:20 brocktice has joined
1713 2013-05-13 12:47:20 <TradeFortress> i wonder how popular a service for "virtually mine asic" would be
1714 2013-05-13 12:47:28 <JDuke128> hello , i m using bitcoinj java api ,  i want to get receiver and sender address when method "onCoinsReceived" called. i tried "    public synchronized void onCoinsReceived(final Wallet w, final Transaction tx, BigInteger prevBalance, BigInteger newBalance)"
1715 2013-05-13 12:47:31 <TradeFortress> complete with stickers for "I mined my own ASICs"
1716 2013-05-13 12:47:37 * TradeFortress ducks, eww java
1717 2013-05-13 12:47:40 <JDuke128> but how can i get receiver and sender address ?
1718 2013-05-13 12:47:48 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: ^
1719 2013-05-13 12:47:59 <Luke-Jr> JDuke128: Bitcoin doesn't have "sender address"
1720 2013-05-13 12:48:01 <TradeFortress> Yeah
1721 2013-05-13 12:48:04 <davout> JDuke128: there's no such thing
1722 2013-05-13 12:48:26 <JDuke128> but i need to get who is sending me money...
1723 2013-05-13 12:48:27 <TradeFortress> There is which addresses had the inputs that was part of the transaction
1724 2013-05-13 12:48:34 <TradeFortress> JDuke128, you cannot reliably get that
1725 2013-05-13 12:48:42 <Luke-Jr> JDuke128: you should create a unique address for every transaction, and remember who you give them to
1726 2013-05-13 12:48:46 <TradeFortress> you may try to send it to change addresses
1727 2013-05-13 12:48:49 <TradeFortress> but that's unreliable
1728 2013-05-13 12:48:56 <Luke-Jr> JDuke128: so, when you receive coins on 1xxx, you know who you gave 1xxx to
1729 2013-05-13 12:49:01 <davout> yeah, don't rely on sender's address
1730 2013-05-13 12:49:01 <Luke-Jr> and therefore you can deduce it's from them
1731 2013-05-13 12:49:16 <JDuke128> ok so ,
1732 2013-05-13 12:49:18 <davout> s/address/addresses/
1733 2013-05-13 12:49:20 <sipa> also, you usually don't really care who paid something, just what was paid
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1735 2013-05-13 12:49:27 <JDuke128> how can i get which wallet address get this money ?
1736 2013-05-13 12:49:40 <davout> by assigning a unique address to each wallet
1737 2013-05-13 12:49:49 <TradeFortress> this, use the accounts system
1738 2013-05-13 12:49:49 <davout> and storing the link somewhere
1739 2013-05-13 12:49:50 <Luke-Jr> JDuke128: BlueMatt or TD[gone] would know
1740 2013-05-13 12:50:01 <Luke-Jr> davout: he means with BitcoinJ I think'
1741 2013-05-13 12:50:20 <davout> Luke-Jr: oh, my bad
1742 2013-05-13 12:50:46 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr: when I first got into bitcoin, I remember going on bitcoinplus.com and waiting for a full month to be able to withdraw my .02 btc or whatever the minimum withdrawal was :p
1743 2013-05-13 12:50:46 <JDuke128> TransactionInput input = tx2.getInputs().get(0); <= this ?
1744 2013-05-13 12:50:47 <davout> the question was more specific than what i though :-)
1745 2013-05-13 12:50:59 <davout> JDuke128: you'd want the outputs
1746 2013-05-13 12:51:09 <davout> to get the receiving address
1747 2013-05-13 12:51:12 <Luke-Jr> JDuke128: no, the address is part of your output
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1749 2013-05-13 12:51:28 <JDuke128> final TransactionOutput transactionOutput = tx2.getOutputs().get(0);
1750 2013-05-13 12:51:33 <Luke-Jr> JDuke128: and since there can be multiple outputs per transaction, perhaps even multiple to you, you can't assume it's the 0th
1751 2013-05-13 12:51:50 <JDuke128> ok , how can i get my wallet address which transaction passed ?
1752 2013-05-13 12:51:57 <TradeFortress> CodeShark, I remember when I included bitcoinplus on a CS server I ran
1753 2013-05-13 12:52:03 <Luke-Jr> JDuke128: you'll have to wait for TD[gone] or BlueMatt I think
1754 2013-05-13 12:52:08 <TradeFortress> it actually paid for the server costs
1755 2013-05-13 12:52:15 <JDuke128> ;(
1756 2013-05-13 12:52:22 <JDuke128> when they come here?
1757 2013-05-13 12:52:22 <CodeShark> TradeFortress: I've managed to pull that off with litecoin in the recent weeks :p
1758 2013-05-13 12:52:43 <TradeFortress> litecoin is pointless
1759 2013-05-13 12:52:54 <CodeShark> it paid for a good portion of some servers I was running
1760 2013-05-13 12:53:12 <Luke-Jr> JDuke128: you just missed BlueMatt
1761 2013-05-13 12:54:28 <TradeFortress> oh wow, gitian builder is actually installing the kernel
1762 2013-05-13 12:54:30 <CodeShark> holy !#!$!! I can't believe how quickly that number is going up, Luke-Jr
1763 2013-05-13 12:54:44 <CodeShark> never seen anything like that
1764 2013-05-13 12:54:48 <TradeFortress> CodeShark, if I were you i wouldn't remind him
1765 2013-05-13 12:54:55 <CodeShark> lol
1766 2013-05-13 12:54:56 <TradeFortress> have him forget, 3 days later wonder why his ASIC is offline
1767 2013-05-13 12:54:58 <sipa> CodeShark: which number?
1768 2013-05-13 12:55:00 <Luke-Jr> lol
1769 2013-05-13 12:55:06 <TradeFortress> http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/userstats.php/1P15fp6Bbr5fkXqKkn7ESj1jjJTxpW7Ef
1770 2013-05-13 12:55:08 <CodeShark> ok, I'll shush
1771 2013-05-13 12:55:15 <Luke-Jr> TradeFortress: I was about to say the same thing :p
1772 2013-05-13 12:57:17 <TradeFortress> System program problem detected
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1776 2013-05-13 13:02:07 <TradeFortress> is there a RPC command to get the block reward?
1777 2013-05-13 13:02:57 <sipa> 50 / 2**(floor(height/210000))
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1780 2013-05-13 13:03:52 <TradeFortress> so I'd have to query for the height first ..?
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1783 2013-05-13 13:04:58 <sipa> yes
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1809 2013-05-13 13:14:17 <TradeFortress> What is with freenode's server..
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2251 2013-05-13 15:34:45 <cornfeedhobo> hello
2252 2013-05-13 15:34:56 <cornfeedhobo> can someone tell me if this is a concern  http://mineforeman.com/2013/05/13/last-forking-warning/
2253 2013-05-13 15:36:08 <sipa> if you're running 0.8.x, or an backported 0.7.x, or any old version with manually configured lock increase: no
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2256 2013-05-13 15:37:36 <kopper> Morning
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2268 2013-05-13 15:46:58 <kinlo> eh
2269 2013-05-13 15:47:43 <kinlo> I find it rather disturbing people set up such scare sites for the "forking warning" while it isn't such a big deal for regular users
2270 2013-05-13 15:47:52 <kinlo> yes you need to upgrade, and yes it's important for miners
2271 2013-05-13 15:48:00 pooler has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 17.0.5/20130422235048])
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2273 2013-05-13 15:48:15 <kinlo> but version 2 blocks have shown miners can adapt, plus pools are very aware of this
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2275 2013-05-13 15:49:16 <sipa> well, this is a hard fork, which affects way more than just miners
2276 2013-05-13 15:49:45 <sipa> though there's no need for panic
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2278 2013-05-13 15:51:05 <kinlo> exactly.  No need for panic, that's the important message
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2280 2013-05-13 15:51:12 <gmaxwell> kinlo: uh. it's more important for regular users than miner (enough miners are updated already so that the longest chain will likely remainin the correct one)
2281 2013-05-13 15:51:31 <gmaxwell> (so long as miners don't get stuck in their capacity as a regular user, they'er fine)
2282 2013-05-13 15:51:50 <gmaxwell> kinlo: we have _never_ had a hard fork before, this isn't just boring business as usual.
2283 2013-05-13 15:52:08 <kinlo> gmaxwell: yes, I know, the issue I'm having is that people are getting scared by the messages somehow, given some of the feedback that I get :)
2284 2013-05-13 15:52:11 <wallet431> if they recieve a tx and it doent show up in the wallet they will update
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2286 2013-05-13 15:52:25 <sipa> if you don't upgrade as a miner, you're just cutting into your income (which is bad, but not threatening to the network)
2287 2013-05-13 15:52:46 <sipa> as a merchant, you risk accepting transactions that aren't accepted in the main chain
2288 2013-05-13 15:53:07 <gmaxwell> kinlo: the message is clear that if you are already updated things are fine. But if you are not, you _must_ update or apply the workaround.
2289 2013-05-13 15:53:13 <wallet431> whats the critical blocknumber?
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2291 2013-05-13 15:54:04 <sipa> the first one with timestamp after may 15 2013, 0:00 UTC
2292 2013-05-13 15:54:08 <kinlo> gmaxwell: not to everyone :)
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2294 2013-05-13 15:56:00 <gmaxwell> kinlo: feel free to suggest wording revisions.
2295 2013-05-13 15:56:17 <kinlo> gmaxwell: it's more the other sites :)
2296 2013-05-13 15:56:38 <cornfeedhobo> yeah this site has gotten me several texts this morning
2297 2013-05-13 15:56:41 <gmaxwell> Ah, sorry, I'd missed that context.
2298 2013-05-13 15:56:42 <cornfeedhobo> people scared
2299 2013-05-13 15:56:53 <kinlo> I was commenting on the site by cornfeedhobo, the big countdown makes it a bigger deal
2300 2013-05-13 15:57:16 <ProfMac> what json calls to bitcoind do I need to tell where the outputs of a transaction have been spent?
2301 2013-05-13 15:57:18 <gmaxwell> yea, thats nuts, esp since it's unlikely that an incompatible block will happen right at that time.
2302 2013-05-13 15:58:20 <sipa> ProfMac: gettxout
2303 2013-05-13 15:58:29 <kinlo> exactly. so people should refer to the official message
2304 2013-05-13 15:58:33 <sipa> ProfMac: oh not where, just whether they are spent or not
2305 2013-05-13 15:59:08 <ProfMac> sipa: ok, thanks.
2306 2013-05-13 15:59:14 <sipa> gmaxwell: i'm actually wondering when the actual fork will happen
2307 2013-05-13 15:59:35 <sipa> gmaxwell: as it seems to me that miners are generally wary, and will likely not risk too much very soon
2308 2013-05-13 15:59:53 <sipa> then again, it only takes one minor miner to produce a block...
2309 2013-05-13 16:00:28 <kinlo> are there still miners on the old version?
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2313 2013-05-13 16:01:20 <kinlo> ofcourse even a cpu miner can find a block, but the actual chance on someone finding a block seems unlikely
2314 2013-05-13 16:01:27 <sipa> kinlo: no major ones, afaik
2315 2013-05-13 16:01:33 <sipa> except deepbit perhaps
2316 2013-05-13 16:01:46 <kinlo> tycho is well aware
2317 2013-05-13 16:01:51 <kinlo> if he didn't upgrade...
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2319 2013-05-13 16:02:25 <gmaxwell> kinlo: I'm sure there are miners on the old version, there always are.
2320 2013-05-13 16:02:46 <gmaxwell> 50BTC was mining invalid p2sh blocks for a month-ish.
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2323 2013-05-13 16:03:21 <cornfeedhobo> as always thank you guys :)
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2325 2013-05-13 16:03:39 <kinlo> oh, didn't even knew that
2326 2013-05-13 16:03:44 <kinlo> so many screwups at pools
2327 2013-05-13 16:04:02 <kinlo> several pools have done something wrong with the v2 blocks
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2494 2013-05-13 17:15:25 <ProfMac> I'm looking at transaction 097abfa85f68006d2b68ad44e5033d92bf697939131a1a772bd427a83bd12fe1.  How can I interrogate bitcoind to learn where the output was spent?
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2500 2013-05-13 17:17:03 <ProfMac> If it matters, the 17DCms43Vu2yusDjmpjHJuZihSSWkNzgSH address is mine.
2501 2013-05-13 17:17:27 novusordo is now known as Guest70726
2502 2013-05-13 17:17:45 <midnightmagic> bitcoind gettransaction txid
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2509 2013-05-13 17:21:31 <gmaxwell> ProfMac: to learn where? you cannot.
2510 2013-05-13 17:22:26 <gmaxwell> There is no, and has never been, an index for where a output was spent in bitcoind because no such index is needed for the operation of the system.
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2514 2013-05-13 17:25:53 <Aurigae> hey guys, anybody aware of a KDE4 or precise app for stackexchange questions/answering?
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2517 2013-05-13 17:27:50 <ProfMac> gmaxwell: blockchain.info has this info.  Do they provide more services than bitcoind?
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2525 2013-05-13 17:30:59 <ProfMac> gmaxwell, it is also in the list of transactions in bitcoin-QT , 0.8.1.
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2597 2013-05-13 18:00:33 <warren> Is there a way to make bitcoind exit after it has synced the entire chain, for benchmarking purposes?
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2701 2013-05-13 19:20:23 <ecoloco> how long does it take for a transaction to get 1st confirmation?
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2703 2013-05-13 19:21:55 <nsh> (answered in #bitcoin)
2704 2013-05-13 19:21:59 <Luke-Jr> ecoloco: how long it takes for a block to include it varies based on miner whims, usually influenced by the apparent "spamminess" of your transaction and what fees you attacked
2705 2013-05-13 19:22:02 <Luke-Jr> attached*
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2710 2013-05-13 19:28:19 <ecoloco> Luke-Jr: why should I have that fees? I just recive transactions? should no matter right?
2711 2013-05-13 19:28:37 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
2712 2013-05-13 19:28:48 <Luke-Jr> ok, what fees the *sender* attached
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2721 2013-05-13 19:34:29 <BlueMatt> anyone run a testnet seednode and want to run a secondary node to announce the weekly alerts?
2722 2013-05-13 19:34:34 <BlueMatt> s/anyone/any developers/
2723 2013-05-13 19:35:48 <Luke-Jr> weekly alerts? O.o
2724 2013-05-13 19:35:57 <BlueMatt> you didnt see the mailing list post?
2725 2013-05-13 19:36:00 CaptainBlaze has joined
2726 2013-05-13 19:36:05 <BlueMatt> weekly test alerts on testnet starting thursday
2727 2013-05-13 19:36:07 <Luke-Jr> no *shuts up*
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2729 2013-05-13 19:36:33 <BlueMatt> meh, there isnt anything else to know
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2773 2013-05-13 19:55:27 <grau> BlueMatt: I would set up seed nodes if needed. The last time I offered It was turned down as superflous.
2774 2013-05-13 19:56:30 <sipa> by whom?
2775 2013-05-13 19:56:38 <grau> Gavin
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2778 2013-05-13 19:56:47 <sipa> heh
2779 2013-05-13 19:56:58 <sipa> i'd certainly like more DNS seeds
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2781 2013-05-13 19:57:09 <gavinandresen> yeah, more seed nodes would be good.  When did I turn you down?
2782 2013-05-13 19:57:17 <grau> OK, will do tomorrow for both nets
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2786 2013-05-13 19:57:46 <grau> gavinandresen: about a month ago, here. You said it is not priority or so
2787 2013-05-13 19:57:47 <gavinandresen> (and we're talking about DNS seed nodes, yes?)
2788 2013-05-13 19:57:51 <grau> yes
2789 2013-05-13 19:58:03 <wallet43> whats this all about https://blockchain.info/address/15Z4XmorKSN51ndyPrZ2EtL7Nnksb88888
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2794 2013-05-13 19:58:43 <grau> no probs. I am happy to do something useful. I offered at that time to set up .hu and .de domain seed nodes
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2797 2013-05-13 19:58:59 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen/sipa: either of you want to change any testnet seeds you are running to use a small branch?
2798 2013-05-13 19:59:13 gribble has joined
2799 2013-05-13 19:59:18 <grau> I have .eu .net .info of bitsofproof
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2803 2013-05-13 19:59:59 <sipa> BlueMatt: i don't run a testnet need
2804 2013-05-13 20:00:26 <nsh> which dependency would one be missing to see complains about db_cxx.h not being found?
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2806 2013-05-13 20:00:43 <grau> I will set up for both nets tomorrow
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2822 2013-05-13 20:14:29 <flound1129> is there an 0.8 rpc equivalent to getnetworkhashps?
2823 2013-05-13 20:15:40 <sipa> ;;calc 2**48/65535/600/10**9
2824 2013-05-13 20:15:40 <gribble> 0.007158388055
2825 2013-05-13 20:16:09 <sipa> flound1129: no, but multiply the difficulty with 0.007158388055 and you find the hashrate corresponding to the current difficulty in GH/s
2826 2013-05-13 20:16:19 sebicas has joined
2827 2013-05-13 20:16:27 <sipa> ;;calc [diff]*2**48/65535/600/10**9
2828 2013-05-13 20:16:28 <gribble> Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
2829 2013-05-13 20:17:01 mE\Ta_ is now known as mE\Ta
2830 2013-05-13 20:17:15 <flound1129> sipa: thx
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2833 2013-05-13 20:17:40 <porquilho> http://qz.com/84056/the-bitcoin-network-is-now-more-powerful-than-the-top-500-supercomputers-combined/
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2835 2013-05-13 20:20:07 <ngc0202> How does transaction signatures work?
2836 2013-05-13 20:20:08 <ngc0202> do*
2837 2013-05-13 20:20:19 <edcba> well
2838 2013-05-13 20:20:44 <flound1129> sipa: actually that will just give a constant return based on current diff..  I wanted something I could graph
2839 2013-05-13 20:21:13 <nsh> ngc0202, question could be more specific
2840 2013-05-13 20:21:13 <flound1129> ala https://www.litecoinpool.org/charts
2841 2013-05-13 20:21:21 <sipa> flound1129: well, then you'll need to look at the number of blocks during a timeframe
2842 2013-05-13 20:21:23 <ngc0202> Yes, sorry
2843 2013-05-13 20:21:26 <sipa> though there are more complex algorithms
2844 2013-05-13 20:21:30 <flound1129> yeah
2845 2013-05-13 20:21:33 <sipa> like the one i use for bitcoin.sipa.be :)
2846 2013-05-13 20:21:33 <flound1129> ok, thanks
2847 2013-05-13 20:21:53 <BlueMatt> ngc0202: thats really more of a question for #bitcoin
2848 2013-05-13 20:21:59 <flound1129> yeah that's a nice site
2849 2013-05-13 20:22:01 <ngc0202> If you sign a transaction and then change it a bit
2850 2013-05-13 20:22:07 <ngc0202> will the transaction be invalid?
2851 2013-05-13 20:22:07 <flound1129> you should switch to highcharts though :)
2852 2013-05-13 20:22:26 <ngc0202> Like let's say you sign it then add another output
2853 2013-05-13 20:22:59 <nsh> ngc0202, then the signature will no longer be valid for the data
2854 2013-05-13 20:23:05 <sipa> flound1129: i made that site like 2 years ago, and haven't spent much time on it since
2855 2013-05-13 20:23:10 <flound1129> yea
2856 2013-05-13 20:23:10 <ngc0202> Ok, that's all I needed to know
2857 2013-05-13 20:23:11 <ngc0202> thanks
2858 2013-05-13 20:23:13 <flound1129> is there an API?
2859 2013-05-13 20:23:16 <nsh> np
2860 2013-05-13 20:23:20 <flound1129> can I ride your coattails?
2861 2013-05-13 20:23:20 <sipa> there are actually _some_ changes you can make to transictions without invalidating them
2862 2013-05-13 20:23:21 <flound1129> lmao
2863 2013-05-13 20:23:27 <ngc0202> What are these changes?
2864 2013-05-13 20:23:33 <sipa> flound1129: no, just stattic png files generated every hour :p
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2866 2013-05-13 20:25:18 <ngc0202> What if you added another input?
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2871 2013-05-13 20:26:16 <sipa> ngc0202: that would certainly invalidate it
2872 2013-05-13 20:26:34 <ngc0202> ok
2873 2013-05-13 20:26:37 <BlueMatt> ngc0202: en.bitcoin.it/wiki/OP_CHECKSIG will tell you everything you need to know
2874 2013-05-13 20:26:56 <ngc0202> awesome, thanks
2875 2013-05-13 20:26:58 * nsh awards BlueMatt 25 optimismcoin
2876 2013-05-13 20:27:14 <ngc0202> Also, are there any tutorials for modifying raw transactions and whatnot?
2877 2013-05-13 20:27:23 <BlueMatt> hmm? no the OP_CHECKSIG wiki page is quite good
2878 2013-05-13 20:27:24 <ngc0202> I couldn't figure out how to add a custom script in
2879 2013-05-13 20:27:39 <ngc0202> That page has that too?
2880 2013-05-13 20:28:14 <nsh> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
2881 2013-05-13 20:28:17 <BlueMatt> the Script page tells you everything you need to know about creating the script, and then you use the raw transaction api page to figure out how to shove that in a transaction (have to serialize it yourself)
2882 2013-05-13 20:28:32 <nsh> ;;title https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=92979.0
2883 2013-05-13 20:28:32 <gribble> Error: This url is not on the whitelist.
2884 2013-05-13 20:28:36 <ngc0202> I read through those both but I couldn't figure it out
2885 2013-05-13 20:28:48 <ngc0202> I'm not the greatest at this sort of thing :S
2886 2013-05-13 20:28:52 <BlueMatt> then use a library like bitcoinj
2887 2013-05-13 20:29:03 <k00shi> Is there any documentation starting point document for making a new GUI to control bitcoind? Is it necessary to know absolutely everything about Bitcoin before starting such a project?
2888 2013-05-13 20:29:20 <BlueMatt> ngc0202: that said, I have to suggest #bitcoin, as it is more relevant for such questions
2889 2013-05-13 20:29:32 <ngc0202> ok
2890 2013-05-13 20:29:40 <ngc0202> I figured people here would have more idea what they were talking about
2891 2013-05-13 20:29:56 <k00shi> (I mean about the control part, not the 'making a gui' part)
2892 2013-05-13 20:29:56 <ngc0202> I actually asked that last question there last night and someone tried to teach me how to write my own bitcoin client or something like that
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2895 2013-05-13 20:30:23 <BlueMatt> k00shi: no and absolutely...or see https://github.com/tcatm/bitcoin-js-remote
2896 2013-05-13 20:30:36 <BlueMatt> (as an example that is 2 years out of date...Im still hoping someone rewrites it)
2897 2013-05-13 20:31:10 <ngc0202> I feel like bitcoin can be rather undocumented for more than basic use
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2899 2013-05-13 20:31:25 <BlueMatt> it absolutely is
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2901 2013-05-13 20:31:44 <k00shi> Meh
2902 2013-05-13 20:31:58 <BlueMatt> I suggest bitcoinj and then help us write more documentation (as its actually a library instead of using bitcoind's api that really says "hey, go serialize it yourself")
2903 2013-05-13 20:32:45 <k00shi> Fuck :)
2904 2013-05-13 20:32:47 <k00shi> That's serious.
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2906 2013-05-13 20:33:25 <BlueMatt> well if you want to send coins from a to b (where both are addresses) then its no problem
2907 2013-05-13 20:33:28 <BlueMatt> if you want to do your own scripts or such, have fun
2908 2013-05-13 20:33:34 CaptainBlaze has joined
2909 2013-05-13 20:33:35 <BlueMatt> (though if you are doing your own scripts, you probably know enough to do so...)
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2911 2013-05-13 20:34:12 <grau> k00shi: take a look of https://github.com/bitsofproof/bop-api-example to see ho to build a bitcoin app in 5 min
2912 2013-05-13 20:34:53 <grau> or https://github.com/bitsofproof/bop-bitcoinspinner for an android app
2913 2013-05-13 20:34:57 <ngc0202> I'm trying to learn how to get the most out of bitcoin
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2918 2013-05-13 20:35:07 <k00shi> grau: What in god's name is the bop enterprise server?
2919 2013-05-13 20:35:35 <BlueMatt> its the second java library for bitcoin...
2920 2013-05-13 20:35:38 <grau> https://github.com/bitsofproof/supernode
2921 2013-05-13 20:35:51 <grau> it is the bits of proof implementation
2922 2013-05-13 20:35:59 <BlueMatt> if you want paid support, bitsofproof is just about all you've got, though its fairly new, so its docs arent great
2923 2013-05-13 20:36:18 <BlueMatt> (so you may need that paid support...)
2924 2013-05-13 20:36:32 <grau> BlueMatt: did I bash you?
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2926 2013-05-13 20:36:48 <BlueMatt> last I heard that was true, maybe its gotten better
2927 2013-05-13 20:36:54 <BlueMatt> (it is moving fast...)
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2929 2013-05-13 20:37:27 <grau> I regularly anwer questions and yes, I need all capacity to move fast and it is worth it
2930 2013-05-13 20:37:39 <grau> I am hiring and will invest into documentation
2931 2013-05-13 20:37:51 <grau> the example projects I just pointed to are the best doc
2932 2013-05-13 20:38:03 <grau> they show how to build an app
2933 2013-05-13 20:38:31 <BlueMatt> examples are great if you want to do exactly what the example does...
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2938 2013-05-13 20:39:22 <grau> BlueMatt: I do not know what bite you. It is a great product and I do offer support.
2939 2013-05-13 20:39:45 <BlueMatt> Im not saying its not great, literally all I said was that its docs arent very complete
2940 2013-05-13 20:39:59 <grau> Yes I agree and will improve.
2941 2013-05-13 20:40:02 <BlueMatt> Im not debating if it works, or if its quite possible to build things with it
2942 2013-05-13 20:40:44 <BlueMatt> ok, great, I have no doubt of that...
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2945 2013-05-13 20:41:57 <BlueMatt> seriously, I wasnt trying to be insulting, I just suggested docs were lacking, and you seem to agree with that
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2953 2013-05-13 20:46:47 <grau> BlueMatt: Insulting was the assumption, the documentation would lack by will to get paid support.
2954 2013-05-13 20:47:14 <nsh> oh, i didn't take that from what BlueMatt wrote, to be fair
2955 2013-05-13 20:47:46 <BlueMatt> ok, let me rephrase, you might need to either get some support (whether free or paid) or read the code as the docs are lacking
2956 2013-05-13 20:47:53 <BlueMatt> s/lacking/currently lacking/
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2958 2013-05-13 20:48:48 <grau> BlueMatt: fine. lets agree documentation needs improvement and I work on it.
2959 2013-05-13 20:49:00 <BlueMatt> sounds good
2960 2013-05-13 20:49:07 <sipa> BlueMatt: just realized that using BIP37 can't be used for full block fetching really
2961 2013-05-13 20:49:36 <sipa> somehow i assumed that sending a full 1 filter would get you full blocks except the ones the peer already knows you know
2962 2013-05-13 20:49:37 <BlueMatt> hmm?
2963 2013-05-13 20:49:46 <sipa> but you miss the actual list of txids
2964 2013-05-13 20:49:59 <BlueMatt> hmm?
2965 2013-05-13 20:50:02 <sipa> in case some subtree above leaf level isn't included
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2970 2013-05-13 20:51:39 <BlueMatt> I was under the impression the partial merkle branch stuff would let you derive the full set of hashes that match the filter?
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2987 2013-05-13 20:51:47 <BlueMatt> if that is not the case is that not a serious bug?
2988 2013-05-13 20:52:15 <sipa> yes it lets you derive the full set of txids that match the filter
2989 2013-05-13 20:52:22 <sipa> but not those that do not match the filter
2990 2013-05-13 20:52:34 <BlueMatt> ok, and if the filter matches all txn?
2991 2013-05-13 20:52:35 <sipa> which is intentional, but it makes it unusable for full block fetching
2992 2013-05-13 20:52:44 <sipa> ooooh
2993 2013-05-13 20:52:48 <sipa> nvm, i'm dumb
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2995 2013-05-13 20:53:09 <sipa> somehow i thought the txids-already-known-to-the-peer wouldn't be in the partial merkle tree
2996 2013-05-13 20:53:12 <BlueMatt> smarter than most of the rest of us still...
2997 2013-05-13 20:53:19 <sipa> which is stupid :)
2998 2013-05-13 20:53:25 <sipa> they're just not transmitted as txs
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3002 2013-05-13 20:55:00 <BlueMatt> really scotus, monsanto, really?
3003 2013-05-13 20:55:07 <nsh> yup :/
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3005 2013-05-13 20:55:40 <sipa> ...?
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3007 2013-05-13 20:55:47 <BlueMatt> http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/13/4326508/scotus-monsanto-genetically-modified-seeds-patent-infringement
3008 2013-05-13 20:55:55 <nsh> immanentizing the eschaton takes precedence now over all other factors of jurisprudence
3009 2013-05-13 20:56:00 <BlueMatt> (among 100 other articles)
3010 2013-05-13 20:56:21 <nsh> sipa, synopsis: monsanto owns all the seed ya unto the foreverth generation
3011 2013-05-13 20:56:36 <nsh> *yay
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3015 2013-05-13 20:59:00 <BlueMatt> most surprising part to me is that it was unanimous
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3020 2013-05-13 21:00:52 <pjorrit> that's some crazy shit, meanwhile in the eu they want to disallow ppl to sell uncertified seeds..
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3027 2013-05-13 21:04:48 <michagogo_> After reading that article, it seems to be that this isn't a patent case
3028 2013-05-13 21:04:53 <michagogo_> It's a contract case
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3032 2013-05-13 21:05:10 <grau> BlueMatt: Please also consider that bop is much more than a library. It is rather a sever and a set of adapters. A full enterprise stack.
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3039 2013-05-13 21:08:24 <BlueMatt> michagogo: well, it fundamentally decides on patent exhaustion, which is what the farmer was depending on to argue monsanto had no legal claim to enforce a contract on seeds that the farmer previously purchased
3040 2013-05-13 21:08:28 <BlueMatt> anyway, this is way off topic
3041 2013-05-13 21:08:54 <BlueMatt> grau: ok, great
3042 2013-05-13 21:09:52 <BlueMatt> grau: seriously though, its great that that exists
3043 2013-05-13 21:09:57 <BlueMatt> (wasnt joking)
3044 2013-05-13 21:10:10 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
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3048 2013-05-13 21:11:33 <grau> BlueMatt: Thanks. I think it has its market. This network grew up there are players who what this stuff and I give it to them. And the community profits in seeing how real banking software is built :) (joking)
3049 2013-05-13 21:12:06 <BlueMatt> heh, anyway, I have no doubt it has a market and I hope to see it grow
3050 2013-05-13 21:12:19 <BlueMatt> I was just trying to be honest by stating its limitations
3051 2013-05-13 21:12:38 <buZz> for me, the word 'enterprise' means unmaintainable
3052 2013-05-13 21:12:46 <buZz> at least, in code
3053 2013-05-13 21:13:14 <grau> buZz: thats the opposite. It is modular and modern
3054 2013-05-13 21:13:18 <buZz> we have a 'enterprise java developer' at the hackerspace
3055 2013-05-13 21:13:24 <buZz> he made a modular and modern irc bot
3056 2013-05-13 21:13:28 <buZz> USING >170MB RAM
3057 2013-05-13 21:13:53 <BlueMatt> its java...if you can get it to use <170MB...
3058 2013-05-13 21:13:57 <k00shi> :)
3059 2013-05-13 21:14:02 <BlueMatt> even to  print "Hello, World!"
3060 2013-05-13 21:14:07 <k00shi> can't, you mean...
3061 2013-05-13 21:14:10 <BlueMatt> well, maybe if you drop the ! you can save a few M
3062 2013-05-13 21:14:20 <buZz> did you see, there is a java litecoin miner now ;)
3063 2013-05-13 21:14:51 <grau> buZz: This is business software. Memory use is irrelevant if youu do business. That excites only kids to save a few MB
3064 2013-05-13 21:15:04 <buZz> heh
3065 2013-05-13 21:15:08 taha has quit (Quit: Leaving)
3066 2013-05-13 21:15:11 <buZz> yes, enterprise, unmaintainable :D
3067 2013-05-13 21:15:12 <grau> Neverthenless bits of proof runs with 500MB
3068 2013-05-13 21:15:46 sacrelege has joined
3069 2013-05-13 21:16:30 <grau> buZz: we speak different languages.
3070 2013-05-13 21:17:16 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
3071 2013-05-13 21:18:03 nsillik has joined
3072 2013-05-13 21:18:06 <MoALTz> incremental small improvements can add up over time. for the opposite, see the winnt kernel: http://blog.zorinaq.com/?e=74
3073 2013-05-13 21:18:59 LorenzoMoney has joined
3074 2013-05-13 21:19:20 <buZz> grau: i think our interaction started on me mentioning that yes ;)
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3077 2013-05-13 21:19:37 Guest55057 is now known as jgarzik_
3078 2013-05-13 21:20:56 <BlueMatt> jgarzik_: you really need to get a client that auto-auths...
3079 2013-05-13 21:21:38 <michagogo> jgarzik_: Or one that can present a client certificate
3080 2013-05-13 21:21:45 <michagogo> Or one that can send a server password
3081 2013-05-13 21:21:48 zoinky1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
3082 2013-05-13 21:21:50 <michagogo> Or one that supports SASL
3083 2013-05-13 21:22:20 <michagogo> jgarzik_: http://freenode.net/sasl/sasl-xchat.shtml
3084 2013-05-13 21:22:54 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
3085 2013-05-13 21:23:10 flykoko has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3086 2013-05-13 21:23:17 <jgarzik_> I'm sure xchat can do it
3087 2013-05-13 21:23:25 <jgarzik_> just lazy ;p
3088 2013-05-13 21:23:37 flykoko has joined
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3092 2013-05-13 21:29:55 <owowo> http://freenode.net/sasl/sasl-xchat.shtml ;o)
3093 2013-05-13 21:30:19 <michagogo> owowo: I just said that
3094 2013-05-13 21:30:49 <owowo> ou! I overlook that line...
3095 2013-05-13 21:31:02 <owowo> *ed
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3117 2013-05-13 21:38:57 <matjeh> whats up with the blocks every 3 minutes recently
3118 2013-05-13 21:39:01 <matjeh> bunch of asics joined?
3119 2013-05-13 21:39:20 gagecolton has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3120 2013-05-13 21:39:35 gagecolton has joined
3121 2013-05-13 21:39:49 <nsh> or mathematics is feeling generous
3122 2013-05-13 21:39:53 cyphase has joined
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3124 2013-05-13 21:42:04 <flound1129> you'd think gox would have a legit 'site down' page by now
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3132 2013-05-13 21:48:36 <Cusipzzz> does this bitcoind need to be upgraded :     "version" : 80000,
3133 2013-05-13 21:48:36 <Cusipzzz>     "protocolversion" : 70001,
3134 2013-05-13 21:48:51 <Cusipzzz> non mining node
3135 2013-05-13 21:50:51 ardeay_ has joined
3136 2013-05-13 21:51:46 <ezdiy> nsh: seems to be indeed too close each other beyond mere luck
3137 2013-05-13 21:51:53 nanotube has joined
3138 2013-05-13 21:52:10 <Ry4an> non-mining no longer matters, and I _think_ anyhing version 8xxxx is fine.
3139 2013-05-13 21:52:14 <ezdiy> sure its statistically possible, but odds of successive luck like this are fairly low
3140 2013-05-13 21:52:24 nanotube has quit (Excess Flood)
3141 2013-05-13 21:52:36 <nsh> don't know if it's possible to see anywhere if a lot of new nodes have come online
3142 2013-05-13 21:52:51 <ezdiy> that'd not be much relevant
3143 2013-05-13 21:53:02 <ezdiy> most people plug their asics into pools
3144 2013-05-13 21:53:04 buZz has quit (Quit: brb)
3145 2013-05-13 21:53:07 <nsh> true
3146 2013-05-13 21:53:15 <ezdiy> and there was difficulty adjust ~ 3 days ago
3147 2013-05-13 21:53:24 agricocb has joined
3148 2013-05-13 21:53:30 buZz has joined
3149 2013-05-13 21:53:30 <ezdiy> so i kinda expected for block time to be slightly over 10 minutes
3150 2013-05-13 21:53:37 <ezdiy> not 7.8 minute lol :)
3151 2013-05-13 21:53:56 <nsh> expectation is the ruin of foresight
3152 2013-05-13 21:54:04 <ezdiy> indeed
3153 2013-05-13 21:54:11 michagogo_ has joined
3154 2013-05-13 21:54:46 <ezdiy> maybe the next difficulty jump will be 300% one :)
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3157 2013-05-13 21:55:29 LorenzoMoney has left ("Ciao!")
3158 2013-05-13 21:55:59 <Cusipzzz> Ry4an: thanks. hoping someone can confirm, the pages all mention 8.01, not 8.00 as being ok
3159 2013-05-13 21:56:12 <Cusipzzz> but cant upgrade that one for some time
3160 2013-05-13 21:57:20 greg_ has joined
3161 2013-05-13 21:57:31 <Ry4an> 0.8.1 (don't forget your beta signifiers :) was the one that wouldn't emit "dangerous" blocks until the 15th.
3162 2013-05-13 21:57:31 greg_ is now known as gmaxwell
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3165 2013-05-13 21:57:40 <Ry4an> 0.8.0 emitted them and could handle them.
3166 2013-05-13 21:58:11 <gmaxwell> Ry4an: even 0.8 wouldn't emit them with default settings.
3167 2013-05-13 21:58:15 o-p has left ()
3168 2013-05-13 21:58:33 <gmaxwell> but it would accept them if someone else (e.g. someone with a setting tweaked 0.8) emitted them
3169 2013-05-13 21:59:09 <Ry4an> gmaxwell: ah really, I thought it was an unknown limitation in 0.7 and preior that hadn't been re-added to 0.8.0.  That's extra subtle.
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3171 2013-05-13 21:59:21 <Cusipzzz> gmaxwell: thanks much, not sure why i have that 8.000 node, but can't upgrade it before 15ht, could take it down though
3172 2013-05-13 21:59:31 rdymac has joined
3173 2013-05-13 21:59:51 <Ry4an> cyberdo: 0.8 :)
3174 2013-05-13 22:00:04 <Ry4an> bah s/cyberdo/Cusipzzz/
3175 2013-05-13 22:00:20 <Cusipzzz> got it.
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3186 2013-05-13 22:04:57 <gmaxwell> Cusipzzz: nothing wrong with keeping a 0.8 node working. It's _pre_ 0.8 that will have issues.
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3202 2013-05-13 22:23:06 <porquilho>  ♥
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3265 2013-05-13 23:09:49 <ezdiy> (maybe false) alarm power rangers: suspicious tx bbf6540a80bf356ab33c7ebf15317a246ed3a46bfe0df30bba3052935d711b9b
3266 2013-05-13 23:10:13 <ezdiy> some of my bitcoinds accept it into mempool, some reject it with invalid inputs might be just rare orphan case
3267 2013-05-13 23:10:40 <nsh> hmm
3268 2013-05-13 23:10:47 <gmaxwell> ezdiy: rare? unless your nodes have been running forever it's pretty common to have missing inputs and not at all alarming.
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3272 2013-05-13 23:11:55 <ezdiy> http://blockchain.info/rejected
3273 2013-05-13 23:11:59 <ezdiy> rare.
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3277 2013-05-13 23:13:51 <gmaxwell> ezdiy: can you getrawtransaction on that guy and give it to me?
3278 2013-05-13 23:14:00 nsillik has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3279 2013-05-13 23:15:00 <gmaxwell> blockchain.info seems to be claiming that it's spending a confirmed output, if thats not incorrect then its not an orphan.
3280 2013-05-13 23:15:37 <sipa> there's an incorrect message in git HEAD saying an input is spent, while it's just not found
3281 2013-05-13 23:15:55 <nsh> x
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3285 2013-05-13 23:17:09 <gmaxwell> This actually doesn't look good. If blockchain.info claim is correct, that transaction spends fb910e1230a25a60a7e4d08755a54ac3243df6827d73d961ddb4d45d0d5d8beb 0
3286 2013-05-13 23:17:19 <gmaxwell> which I have in gettxout
3287 2013-05-13 23:17:21 <ezdiy> 00:53 < TheSeven> $ bitcoind getrawtransaction bbf6540a80bf356ab33c7ebf15317a246ed3a46bfe0df30bba3052935d711b9b
3288 2013-05-13 23:17:24 <ezdiy> 00:53 < TheSeven> 0100000001eb8b5d0d5dd4b4dd61d9737d82f63d24c34aa55587d0e4a7605aa230120e91fb000000008a4730440220c309d71f3b8cbafce79d7ab2afde11c16d8f566f2d1e375b305df621ec0d9f230220c073cfa2018bee371bd4f771730368d66762628093f5d1922123c7938681fd0d014104b7b6fcff33b2233c8ca607390f951e845865088a26264a291ffcea2d67bcccfc0dee3e2f906f6feeedea3d2fcf563f5d5c1a7e76a621b8fb659ad9865f2eefeeffffffff010008af2f000000001976a9147b6746f308567c7d5e7ac79bb79412339952514888ac0
3289 2013-05-13 23:17:26 <gmaxwell> but my node rejected that transaction.
3290 2013-05-13 23:17:30 <ezdiy> 00:53 < TheSeven> 0000000
3291 2013-05-13 23:17:30 <ezdiy> same here
3292 2013-05-13 23:18:27 <sipa> R value negative here
3293 2013-05-13 23:18:39 <sipa> so it's triggering the non-standard DER rule
3294 2013-05-13 23:18:49 <ezdiy> yep
3295 2013-05-13 23:18:50 <TheSeven> accepted on my 0.8.1 node
3296 2013-05-13 23:18:52 samson_ has joined
3297 2013-05-13 23:18:56 <ezdiy> 0.8.2 rejected it
3298 2013-05-13 23:19:06 <sipa> anything bit git head aka 0.8.2.almost will accept it
3299 2013-05-13 23:19:27 asciilifeform has joined
3300 2013-05-13 23:19:33 troc has joined
3301 2013-05-13 23:19:38 <gmaxwell> yea, it's just R negative. ::yawn::
3302 2013-05-13 23:19:47 mod6 has joined
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3304 2013-05-13 23:19:52 <gmaxwell> ezdiy: don't crop your logs so tight in the future. :P
3305 2013-05-13 23:20:15 <TheSeven> gmaxwell: so this is a "i'm not gonna mine/forward this but will accept it in blocks" case?
3306 2013-05-13 23:20:34 <gmaxwell> TheSeven: yes.
3307 2013-05-13 23:20:53 <gmaxwell> TheSeven: any idea who created that transaction?
3308 2013-05-13 23:21:20 <TheSeven> nope, just ran into the chatter in #bitcoin-assets about it and pasted the getrawtransaction
3309 2013-05-13 23:21:35 <gmaxwell> oh god what moron fud is #bitcoin-assets spreading today?
3310 2013-05-13 23:21:46 <gmaxwell> wait. I don't want to know.
3311 2013-05-13 23:21:52 Neozonz has joined
3312 2013-05-13 23:22:11 <gmaxwell> In any case, if you encounter someone who knows what made that transaction, please direct them to https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=106461.5 (or any of the other threads pieter has made on the subject)
3313 2013-05-13 23:22:33 <TheSeven> actually the even worse fud in the btc-e trollbox made me check the #bitcoin-assets discussion :)
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3319 2013-05-13 23:23:55 <gmaxwell> TheSeven: dear god, have the hierarchies of stupid reversed? ... and what were you doing reading the btc-e chat thing? DO YOU NOT CARE FOR YOUR SANITY??
3320 2013-05-13 23:24:03 resinate has joined
3321 2013-05-13 23:25:19 <sipa> gmaxwell: i'm afraid we already lost him
3322 2013-05-13 23:25:40 <owowo> he went back reading btce box :P
3323 2013-05-13 23:25:50 <ezdiy> gmaxwell: seems like FUD campaign
3324 2013-05-13 23:25:57 <ezdiy> lots of non-standard txes appearing in debug log
3325 2013-05-13 23:26:14 <ezdiy> + 1 hour long block out of nowhere (might be just coincidence)
3326 2013-05-13 23:26:16 <sipa> we need better error reporting for those
3327 2013-05-13 23:26:22 <sipa> ;;tblb 3600
3328 2013-05-13 23:26:29 <gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 1 hour and 0 seconds to generate is 6 days, 16 hours, 1 minute, and 42 seconds
3329 2013-05-13 23:26:38 <kinlo> gmaxwell: it is a great achievement to participate in the btc-e chatbox and still remain sane :)
3330 2013-05-13 23:26:39 <sipa> -> happens more than once a week, get over it
3331 2013-05-13 23:26:44 <kinlo> you should congratulate him :)
3332 2013-05-13 23:26:49 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
3333 2013-05-13 23:26:53 <sipa> why do you assume he remained sane?
3334 2013-05-13 23:26:54 dlunch has joined
3335 2013-05-13 23:27:13 <kinlo> good point
3336 2013-05-13 23:27:23 <kinlo> I never dared to use it
3337 2013-05-13 23:27:30 <TheSeven> gmaxwell: heh, was checking what the hell was going on with the PPC price over there, and saw some very suspicious FUD that was asking to be killed off :)
3338 2013-05-13 23:27:31 <sipa> i never heard about it
3339 2013-05-13 23:27:48 <kinlo> sipa: it's a good laugh once in a while
3340 2013-05-13 23:29:04 <TheSeven> well, you need to mentally filter out 90% of the nonsense in there if you want to stay sane :)
3341 2013-05-13 23:29:17 sagax__ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
3342 2013-05-13 23:29:18 <TheSeven> and even that only works during low traffic periods
3343 2013-05-13 23:30:03 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
3344 2013-05-13 23:30:21 <rdponticelli> TheSeven: Even after you filter that 90% of nonsense, the remaining is composed on a 90% by nonsense... :p
3345 2013-05-13 23:30:28 <TheSeven> it surely is :)
3346 2013-05-13 23:30:35 ardeay_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3347 2013-05-13 23:30:45 <TheSeven> but that remaining nonsense might be important enough nonsense to affect the market's behavior :P
3348 2013-05-13 23:30:56 <gmaxwell> rdponticelli: it's recursive, in fact no filter is selective enough that a subsiquent filtering pass won't remove just as much.
3349 2013-05-13 23:31:05 <kinlo> sipa: it's quite funny that btc-e wants to be taken seriously, but does not remove the chatbox
3350 2013-05-13 23:31:25 anarchy5 has joined
3351 2013-05-13 23:31:30 <TheSeven> tbh that's not terribly difficult given how their competitors behave
3352 2013-05-13 23:32:00 <kinlo> well, mtgox is somewhat a competitor and they behave
3353 2013-05-13 23:32:27 <TheSeven> well, except for that coinlab thing... I still don't get what might have happened there behind the scenes
3354 2013-05-13 23:32:27 <gmaxwell> ezdiy: TheSeven: in any case, thank you both for bringing the concern here... where, had it been a real issue, something could be done vs just a lame market price manipulation attempt.
3355 2013-05-13 23:32:48 <ezdiy> gmaxwell: indeed
3356 2013-05-13 23:33:24 <kinlo> is it normal that debug.log is full of orphan blocks during an initial block download?
3357 2013-05-13 23:33:38 <kinlo> I was under the impression that  peers do not send out orphans
3358 2013-05-13 23:34:13 <TheSeven> I wouldn't use btc-e for btc/usd trading, just for ppc/btc... and that trollbox might actually be causing quite a bit of traffic on that market, riding those FUD waves can be fun if done right :)
3359 2013-05-13 23:34:20 <sipa> kinlo: they're just blocks downloaded in incorrect order
3360 2013-05-13 23:34:22 <ezdiy> kinlo: yes, orphans are common
3361 2013-05-13 23:34:29 Hasimir- has joined
3362 2013-05-13 23:34:31 <kinlo> sipa: i see
3363 2013-05-13 23:34:46 <sipa> kinlo: note that it refers to *orphans* (as in: without parent, or unknown parent), not stale/side/...-blocks
3364 2013-05-13 23:34:52 <kinlo> well, if you're not gonna trade on btc-e, which other  exchange is worth the effort? :)
3365 2013-05-13 23:34:54 <ezdiy> like every 2nd block there is an orphaned sidechan
3366 2013-05-13 23:35:08 <ezdiy> oh, yeah
3367 2013-05-13 23:35:16 * ezdiy crawls back to his corner for confusing orphans/stales :)
3368 2013-05-13 23:35:18 <TheSeven> sipa: the terminology of gettransaction showing "orphaned" on stale/side blocks might not be exactly helpful here
3369 2013-05-13 23:35:24 <kinlo> sipa: exactly :)
3370 2013-05-13 23:35:35 <gmaxwell> TheSeven: I assume thats why they don't remove it, it increase volatility and thus exchange income.
3371 2013-05-13 23:35:39 Toresh has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3372 2013-05-13 23:35:40 <sipa> TheSeven: that's where the terminology comes from
3373 2013-05-13 23:35:59 <sipa> TheSeven: but it refers to orphaned *transactions*, which happens when the blocks they are in are reorganized away
3374 2013-05-13 23:36:06 quaz0r has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3375 2013-05-13 23:36:09 <sipa> but it's something different entirely from orphan blocks
3376 2013-05-13 23:36:28 Toresh has joined
3377 2013-05-13 23:36:42 <TheSeven> well, execpt for orphaned coinbase transactions, which is what most people think of when talking about orphaned blocks
3378 2013-05-13 23:36:48 Hasimir has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3379 2013-05-13 23:37:21 <sipa> yes, and unfortunately that term became commonspread to the point that it's quite pointless to fight it :)
3380 2013-05-13 23:37:55 <kinlo> yeah, I should fix that some day
3381 2013-05-13 23:37:58 <TheSeven> gmaxwell: not only the exchange's, but also the fud spreader's and fud wave rider's :)
3382 2013-05-13 23:38:03 rdymac has joined
3383 2013-05-13 23:38:10 <kinlo> what's the proper way to call a block that is not in the main tree?
3384 2013-05-13 23:38:17 <kinlo> can't call it invalid - it is a valid block
3385 2013-05-13 23:38:21 <sipa> side chain
3386 2013-05-13 23:38:31 <kinlo> that's not catchy/clear :)
3387 2013-05-13 23:38:37 <sipa> extinct block
3388 2013-05-13 23:38:39 <ezdiy> sipa: ie losing chain = stale, orphaned = not known parent because of wrong sending order, is that correct?
3389 2013-05-13 23:38:40 <sipa> stale block
3390 2013-05-13 23:38:52 <kinlo> stale I can agree on
3391 2013-05-13 23:39:12 <sipa> (though stale refers to the fact that it was mined based on stale work, and that doesn't apply to all side chain blocks)
3392 2013-05-13 23:39:16 <TheSeven> lines up nicely with the definition of stale shares
3393 2013-05-13 23:39:32 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
3394 2013-05-13 23:39:34 <sipa> inactive blocks?
3395 2013-05-13 23:39:45 <ezdiy> 'sore loser chains'
3396 2013-05-13 23:40:28 brwyatt_ is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt_
3397 2013-05-13 23:40:49 <kinlo> there, stale it has become
3398 2013-05-13 23:41:36 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
3399 2013-05-13 23:41:54 <gmaxwell> Well, the word extinct is proper because its linage doesn't continue.
3400 2013-05-13 23:42:26 <gmaxwell> people are still going to keep calling them orphans. Lost battle.
3401 2013-05-13 23:42:29 sagax__ has joined
3402 2013-05-13 23:43:04 <kinlo> well, unless you tell me stale is wrong, I'm going to keep "stale"
3403 2013-05-13 23:43:15 <TheSeven> well they're orphans when looking from the wrong end :)
3404 2013-05-13 23:43:15 Neozonz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3405 2013-05-13 23:43:18 <sipa> gmaxwell: in case of a hard fork, blocks that one side would consider side-chain, will still be mined upon
3406 2013-05-13 23:43:35 <sipa> so extinct wouldn't apply in that case
3407 2013-05-13 23:43:42 <sipa> and neither would stale
3408 2013-05-13 23:44:16 <kinlo> I never adjusted my code to take into account that stale blocks might still become valid after a while
3409 2013-05-13 23:44:31 <kinlo> mmmz
3410 2013-05-13 23:44:36 <ezdiy> ugh
3411 2013-05-13 23:44:38 <TheSeven> "other chain" is the only really applicable thing. or, in case of non-mined-upon blocks, stub blocks
3412 2013-05-13 23:44:46 <ezdiy> kinlo: thats seriously broken bitcoin implementation then
3413 2013-05-13 23:45:18 <gmaxwell> http://www.veracode.com/blog/2013/05/executable-archaeology-the-case-of-the-stupid-thing-eating-all-my-ram/ < "My memory is leaking!" "Stop shaking your computer!"
3414 2013-05-13 23:45:19 <TheSeven> or rather "chain stubs"
3415 2013-05-13 23:45:29 <kinlo> ezdiy: never mind just talking out loud, wasn't referring to a client implementation
3416 2013-05-13 23:47:51 rdymac has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
3417 2013-05-13 23:48:41 quaz0r has joined
3418 2013-05-13 23:49:36 rdymac has joined
3419 2013-05-13 23:50:53 <kinlo> gmaxwell: after reading that, I'm again so glad to have moved away from windows
3420 2013-05-13 23:51:02 <kinlo> the crapware that they install...
3421 2013-05-13 23:51:53 PRab_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
3422 2013-05-13 23:52:06 <TheSeven> it's getting worse. with windows 8, you sometimes cannot even get rid of that crap, because they just won't let you properly use a vanilla windows installation on the hardware
3423 2013-05-13 23:52:16 chax has joined
3424 2013-05-13 23:52:41 <kinlo> I still don't understand windows 8, it seems such an useless windows version
3425 2013-05-13 23:53:03 <TheSeven> such as only providing some important drivers/utilities through the vendor-specific part of microsoft's "app store", which you can't use unless you keep the default crapware installation
3426 2013-05-13 23:53:17 <TheSeven> it's a second vista. but much worse than vista.
3427 2013-05-13 23:53:27 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
3428 2013-05-13 23:53:32 <TheSeven> let's hope that windows 9 will basically be windows 8 minus bullshit, just like it was with windows 7 vs. vista
3429 2013-05-13 23:53:43 <TheSeven> but we're getting way off topic here :)
3430 2013-05-13 23:53:58 nsillik has joined
3431 2013-05-13 23:54:05 <HM2> Windows OSs are like Star Trek films, the odd ones always suck
3432 2013-05-13 23:54:20 <HM2> this is going to be proven correct with In to Darkness btw
3433 2013-05-13 23:54:31 <kinlo> that has been true  since windows 3.0 basicly
3434 2013-05-13 23:54:56 _W_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
3435 2013-05-13 23:55:28 <kinlo> HM2: dunno, I want to be surprised, and I'm convinced it might be different this time
3436 2013-05-13 23:55:33 <kinlo> oh well, bed time, afk
3437 2013-05-13 23:56:54 chax has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
3438 2013-05-13 23:57:59 Hasimir- is now known as Hasimir
3439 2013-05-13 23:57:59 Hasimir has quit (Changing host)
3440 2013-05-13 23:57:59 Hasimir has joined