1 2013-05-14 00:02:30 CAP9318 has quit (Quit: • IRcap • 8.71 •)
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   3 2013-05-14 00:07:48 <denisx> HM2: so windows 7 was odd?
   4 2013-05-14 00:08:34 <sipa> 7 certainly isn't even
   5 2013-05-14 00:08:47 <HM2> I said 'like', not the same ;)
   6 2013-05-14 00:09:18 rdymac has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
   7 2013-05-14 00:09:18 <denisx> did windows 7 suck?
   8 2013-05-14 00:09:35 <lianj> no, it was the good one. 9 is next
   9 2013-05-14 00:10:45 TD has joined
  10 2013-05-14 00:10:49 <TD> good afternoon
  11 2013-05-14 00:11:57 caedes has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  12 2013-05-14 00:12:09 <jgarzik_> evenin' :)
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  15 2013-05-14 00:12:24 <sipa> night'
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  17 2013-05-14 00:12:58 <ezdiy> mornin'
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  19 2013-05-14 00:14:19 <TD> g'day :)
  20 2013-05-14 00:14:27 <TD> jgarzik_: when do you get into town?
  21 2013-05-14 00:14:55 <rdymac> morning where?
  22 2013-05-14 00:15:21 <TD> australia
  23 2013-05-14 00:15:29 <rdponticelli> Japan
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  26 2013-05-14 00:18:43 <rdymac> I see
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  46 2013-05-14 00:34:08 <owowo> sudo killall time
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  53 2013-05-14 00:46:23 <SteveDekorte> can multiple tx outputs within a single tx have the same address?
  54 2013-05-14 00:46:46 <lianj> yes
  55 2013-05-14 00:46:59 <SteveDekorte> is there any limit on the size of a tx?
  56 2013-05-14 00:47:53 <lianj> generally the block size limit the the limit
  57 2013-05-14 00:48:08 <lianj> also remember to pay lots of fees if the tx is big
  58 2013-05-14 00:48:39 <SteveDekorte> ok, that solves that issue
  59 2013-05-14 00:48:49 <gmaxwell> SteveDekorte: reference client won't create a transaction >100kb at least on its own (e.g. not via rawtxn), network obviously can't process one larger than the maximum permitted block size.
  60 2013-05-14 00:48:55 <SteveDekorte> but why are multiple tx outs allowed for the same address?
  61 2013-05-14 00:49:39 <gmaxwell> The reference client will not allow you to make multiple txouts for the same address through any exposed mechenism (other than externally drafting the transaction with something else and signing it as a raw transaction)
  62 2013-05-14 00:49:40 [\\\] has quit ()
  63 2013-05-14 00:50:07 <SteveDekorte> ok, thanks
  64 2013-05-14 00:50:08 [\\\] has joined
  65 2013-05-14 00:50:09 <gmaxwell> It's stupid to create such a think but also not obviously profitable to abuse...
  66 2013-05-14 00:50:35 <SteveDekorte> mostly just want to know what I should be able to handle
  67 2013-05-14 00:50:36 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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  69 2013-05-14 00:52:02 <SteveDekorte> hm, so if you constructed a very large valid tx would the nodes share it with each other via invs?
  70 2013-05-14 00:52:12 <TD> SteveDekorte: anything allowed by the protocol, if the app is security sensitive. including things that make no sense.
  71 2013-05-14 00:52:41 <gmaxwell> SteveDekorte: yes, subject to some restrictions.
  72 2013-05-14 00:52:43 <lianj> SteveDekorte: if you pay the fee, yes
  73 2013-05-14 00:53:09 <gmaxwell> SteveDekorte: nodes won't relay transactions over 100kb (IIRC), and they won't relay transactions without enough fee per kb.
  74 2013-05-14 00:53:10 <SteveDekorte> do nodes require a fee to share a tx inv?
  75 2013-05-14 00:53:23 <gmaxwell> yes, if the transaction is >10kb.
  76 2013-05-14 00:53:27 <lianj> yes, there is a min relay fee
  77 2013-05-14 00:53:35 <gmaxwell> lianj: min is a little misleading there.
  78 2013-05-14 00:53:46 <lianj> hehe
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  80 2013-05-14 00:54:27 <SteveDekorte> aha, good - is all this in the wiki? just so I know whether to look harder there before bothering anyone
  81 2013-05-14 00:54:45 <TD> it's a mix unfortunately
  82 2013-05-14 00:54:47 <TD> some is and some isn't
  83 2013-05-14 00:54:55 <TD> asking here is not a bad idea
  84 2013-05-14 00:55:21 <gmaxwell> I think everything we just talked about is in the wiki, on the transaction fee page— which isn't exactly where you might look for it.
  85 2013-05-14 00:55:22 RedEmerald has quit (Changing host)
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  87 2013-05-14 00:55:32 <TD> the precise rules are changing though
  88 2013-05-14 00:55:33 <SteveDekorte> should I add these details to the wiki when I discover them or are other folks taking responsibility for that?
  89 2013-05-14 00:55:38 <TD> 0.8.2 has different behavior to 0.8.1
  90 2013-05-14 00:55:43 <gmaxwell> SteveDekorte: if you let us know what you're up to instead of just asking point questions we might be able to give more complete answers.
  91 2013-05-14 00:55:46 <TD> please do add. you will have to pay a small fee to be able to edit the wiki
  92 2013-05-14 00:55:47 franl has joined
  93 2013-05-14 00:55:55 <TD> (it's an anti spam thing)
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  97 2013-05-14 00:56:35 <SteveDekorte> gmaxwell: I'm tinkering on an experimental payment processor
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 134 2013-05-14 01:29:47 cjd_ is now known as cjd
 135 2013-05-14 01:31:39 <ThickAsThieves> are we forked or something?
 136 2013-05-14 01:31:44 <ThickAsThieves> what's going on?
 137 2013-05-14 01:32:12 <copumpkin> ?
 138 2013-05-14 01:32:40 <SomeoneWeird> wa
 139 2013-05-14 01:32:41 <SomeoneWeird> t
 140 2013-05-14 01:32:44 <ThickAsThieves> ;;nethash
 141 2013-05-14 01:32:45 <gribble> 93934.6414104
 142 2013-05-14 01:32:49 <ThickAsThieves> ;;tslb
 143 2013-05-14 01:32:51 <cjd> after the 15th, at any time there may be a block with versions older than 8.x will drop
 144 2013-05-14 01:32:54 <gribble> Time since last block: 11 minutes and 1 second
 145 2013-05-14 01:33:08 <cjd> then the per-8.x versions will be left behind
 146 2013-05-14 01:33:50 jciri has joined
 147 2013-05-14 01:34:56 <ThickAsThieves> sry for my misunderstanding
 148 2013-05-14 01:35:01 <ThickAsThieves> carry on!
 149 2013-05-14 01:35:48 <denisx> will it the 15th 00:00 UTC?
 150 2013-05-14 01:35:52 <denisx> will it be..
 151 2013-05-14 01:36:06 jciri has quit (Client Quit)
 152 2013-05-14 01:36:36 <Luke-Jr> cjd: you know it's 0.8.x, not 8.x, right?
 153 2013-05-14 01:36:52 Jearil has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 154 2013-05-14 01:37:10 <SomeoneWeird> Luke-Jr, probably typo
 155 2013-05-14 01:37:19 <Luke-Jr> SomeoneWeird: that's what I assumed the first time ;)
 156 2013-05-14 01:37:28 <SomeoneWeird> ah yeah
 157 2013-05-14 01:37:31 <SomeoneWeird> still
 158 2013-05-14 01:37:56 <cjd> I doubt there will ever be a 1.0 since it's money is srs biz and all that so it will probably officially be "experimental" forevar
 159 2013-05-14 01:38:11 <cjd> and   Bitcoin 8   sounds better :)
 160 2013-05-14 01:38:52 <cjd> Java does the same thing...  Java 7 ->  1.7
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 180 2013-05-14 02:08:43 <midnightmagic> I think the oldstyle NetBSD  version stringing is the best anyway.
 181 2013-05-14 02:09:07 <midnightmagic> Let it be 0.x.y forever. Just because.
 182 2013-05-14 02:09:19 enikanorov has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 183 2013-05-14 02:10:02 <gmaxwell> it's always awesome when you go from 0.9.x to 0.10.x and everyone's versioning scripts that thought it was a digit catch fire.
 184 2013-05-14 02:10:33 Muis_ is now known as Muis
 185 2013-05-14 02:10:40 <midnightmagic> choke on the sorting order, crappy script-writers ha ha ha
 186 2013-05-14 02:10:40 <cjd> don't make fun of my bash cmake version checker :P
 187 2013-05-14 02:10:46 enikanorov has joined
 188 2013-05-14 02:10:59 <cjd> to be fair, I did fix that.... eventually
 189 2013-05-14 02:11:20 <midnightmagic> ;-)
 190 2013-05-14 02:12:07 <cjd> now that I'm completely invested in cmake, I wish I had written my build scripts manually in node.js
 191 2013-05-14 02:12:30 <cjd> because I am forever wanting to do stuff that cmake was really never designed to do
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 195 2013-05-14 02:14:50 <nsh> versions numbers should converge on the final halting probability
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 223 2013-05-14 03:01:35 <nanotube> learn from chrome. version numbers should be integers!
 224 2013-05-14 03:02:20 <Luke-Jr> nanotube: I have Chromium 26.0.1410.43
 225 2013-05-14 03:02:27 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
 226 2013-05-14 03:02:31 <nanotube> chromIUM is different :)
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 229 2013-05-14 03:02:47 <nanotube> we are, by the way, on mainline bitcoin version 44 (or some such. :P )
 230 2013-05-14 03:03:49 caedes has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 231 2013-05-14 03:03:52 <nanotube> hm actually 0.8.2 will be 57
 232 2013-05-14 03:04:19 fiesh has joined
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 234 2013-05-14 03:04:44 * nanotube changes topic to "latest version 57rc"
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 236 2013-05-14 03:05:27 <gmaxwell> nanotube: watch talking about? $ git log --oneline | wc -l
 237 2013-05-14 03:05:27 <gmaxwell> 3984
 238 2013-05-14 03:05:44 <nanotube> heh list the release tags :P
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 263 2013-05-14 03:31:36 <MC1984> mempool should be roughly the same for all nodes right
 264 2013-05-14 03:31:54 <MC1984> anyone notice it pushing 2000 lately
 265 2013-05-14 03:32:20 <MC1984> and not really dropping under 1000 any more
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 269 2013-05-14 03:33:50 <MC1984> also a lot of inputs already spent, never had that before. Those nodes should be getting banned right
 270 2013-05-14 03:34:18 <ali1234> possibly spam from altcoins?
 271 2013-05-14 03:34:53 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
 272 2013-05-14 03:35:08 <MC1984> wha
 273 2013-05-14 03:35:11 <ali1234> some of them don't change genesis block or message start :(
 274 2013-05-14 03:35:21 <MC1984> altcoin shit wouldnt be in the bitcoin network
 275 2013-05-14 03:36:14 <ali1234> well, altcoins cross pollinating tx has already happened
 276 2013-05-14 03:36:26 <ali1234> when one ends up as a hard fork of another
 277 2013-05-14 03:36:49 <ali1234> i guess since most of them fork litecoin they wouldn't affect bitcoin
 278 2013-05-14 03:37:10 <MC1984> wow
 279 2013-05-14 03:37:11 <ali1234> however there are a few unknowns in development (seen by checking the irc channels)
 280 2013-05-14 03:37:27 <MC1984> so start a scamcoin and end up making tarded bitcoin nodes instead
 281 2013-05-14 03:37:32 <ali1234> yes
 282 2013-05-14 03:37:39 <MC1984> thats funny
 283 2013-05-14 03:37:59 XertroV has joined
 284 2013-05-14 03:38:02 <MC1984> still, i never noticed it till i installed this rc so
 285 2013-05-14 03:39:20 Diapolis has joined
 286 2013-05-14 03:40:06 <MC1984> the banscore is 0 -> 0 every time i get one, so maybe im seeing them coming from the same few nodes. Why doesnt it just ban them
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 288 2013-05-14 03:40:18 <ali1234> the ban code isn't very smart
 289 2013-05-14 03:40:26 <ali1234> or at least it wasnt last time i looked at it
 290 2013-05-14 03:40:34 <ali1234> it's pretty hard for a node to get banned
 291 2013-05-14 03:40:57 <MC1984> yeah the most ive seen is 90
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 293 2013-05-14 03:42:39 <MC1984> well im running rc in order to report shit, so why not
 294 2013-05-14 03:43:45 <MC1984> i dont know if any one cares, but the aplha transparency of the tiny program ico seems a bit messed up, the interior of the B is just white and before im sure it was transparent
 295 2013-05-14 03:44:02 <MC1984> if theres a grand buglist someone that one goes right at the bottom, but whatever
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 300 2013-05-14 03:46:27 <cjd> user@ubnta8:~/wrk/cjdns-pvt$ cat ./bootstrap.dat | xz | wc -c
 301 2013-05-14 03:46:28 <cjd> 2980988784
 302 2013-05-14 03:46:28 <cjd> user@ubnta8:~/wrk/cjdns-pvt$ ls -la ./bootstrap.dat
 303 2013-05-14 03:46:28 <cjd> -rw-rw-r-- 1 user user 4855459871 May  6 01:20 ./bootstrap.dat
 304 2013-05-14 03:46:28 <cjd> user@ubnta8:~/wrk/cjdns-pvt$
 305 2013-05-14 03:46:47 <cjd> ;;calc 4855459871 / 2980988784
 306 2013-05-14 03:46:47 <gribble> 1.62880850041
 307 2013-05-14 03:46:55 <cjd> err
 308 2013-05-14 03:47:02 <cjd> ;;calc 2980988784 / 4855459871
 309 2013-05-14 03:47:03 <gribble> 0.61394571538
 310 2013-05-14 03:47:08 <cjd> hmm
 311 2013-05-14 03:47:15 <cjd> blockchain compresses surprisingly well
 312 2013-05-14 03:47:41 <MC1984> what compressor
 313 2013-05-14 03:47:47 <cjd> xz
 314 2013-05-14 03:47:54 <cjd> which is basically LZMA
 315 2013-05-14 03:48:12 <MC1984> 40%?
 316 2013-05-14 03:48:33 <cjd> well compresses to 61% of it's original size
 317 2013-05-14 03:48:41 <gmaxwell> not terribly impressive.
 318 2013-05-14 03:48:48 execut3 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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 320 2013-05-14 03:48:58 <gmaxwell> a specialized compressor can do a fair amount better.
 321 2013-05-14 03:49:37 <cjd> probably so but it's interesting nonetheless
 322 2013-05-14 03:50:11 <cjd> freeing up 2ish GB of space is always interesting
 323 2013-05-14 03:50:46 <MC1984> only useful if it can still be worked with peicemeal in a compressed state
 324 2013-05-14 03:50:53 <cjd> yeap
 325 2013-05-14 03:51:09 pacpac has joined
 326 2013-05-14 03:51:29 <cjd> compress 10MB blocks or something like that
 327 2013-05-14 03:51:36 <MC1984> i bet a custom compressor could squash it in megabyte chunks or somthing
 328 2013-05-14 03:52:06 <cjd> using an off-the-shelf compressor has the benefit or testing behind it
 329 2013-05-14 03:52:07 molecular has joined
 330 2013-05-14 03:52:19 <cjd> don't have to reinvent the wheel, even if your wheel would be better
 331 2013-05-14 03:52:56 <MC1984> every part of bitcoin must eventually be handmade in asm!
 332 2013-05-14 03:53:20 molec has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 333 2013-05-14 03:53:26 <cjd> ahh but eventually is not tomorrow and handmade need not be by me :)
 334 2013-05-14 03:53:29 sacarlson has joined
 335 2013-05-14 03:54:10 fishfish_ has joined
 336 2013-05-14 03:54:34 <MC1984> whoes gunna go it? someone else! someone else!
 337 2013-05-14 03:54:37 <MC1984> lol
 338 2013-05-14 03:55:45 <Luke-Jr> MC1984: what asm?
 339 2013-05-14 03:56:09 <MC1984> youre they guy with the darknet project right? damn i dropped into your irc just before going on holiday august last year
 340 2013-05-14 03:56:09 <cjd> pdp11
 341 2013-05-14 03:56:23 <MC1984> did you find a DNS solution
 342 2013-05-14 03:56:32 <cjd> sorta
 343 2013-05-14 03:56:35 <Luke-Jr> cjd: nooooooo
 344 2013-05-14 03:56:49 <Luke-Jr> MC1984: he wrote one. it's called CJ DNS.
 345 2013-05-14 03:56:51 * Luke-Jr ducks
 346 2013-05-14 03:56:57 <cjd> =]
 347 2013-05-14 03:57:16 <MC1984> mctrollington
 348 2013-05-14 03:57:28 <cjd> oh right, mc
 349 2013-05-14 03:57:33 <Luke-Jr> sigh, ASICMiner makes annoying work for me
 350 2013-05-14 03:57:41 <MC1984> didnt have a way to do distributed naming last i heard
 351 2013-05-14 03:58:03 fishfish has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 352 2013-05-14 03:58:41 <cjd> you were the mc from the UK, not the mc who wrote namecoin
 353 2013-05-14 03:58:53 ardeay_ has joined
 354 2013-05-14 03:59:06 <Luke-Jr> if you get static addressing, you don't need names
 355 2013-05-14 03:59:15 <MC1984> forrestv did namecoin iirc
 356 2013-05-14 03:59:22 <Luke-Jr> links just specify by address
 357 2013-05-14 03:59:24 <Luke-Jr> MC1984: no
 358 2013-05-14 03:59:37 <MC1984> oh no he did p2pool
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 360 2013-05-14 04:00:41 savetheinternet has joined
 361 2013-05-14 04:00:49 <cjd> static addressing is nice
 362 2013-05-14 04:00:59 <cjd> but names are also nice
 363 2013-05-14 04:01:04 <cjd> cjd [irssi@fc88:dfd0:89d4:abfe:de2:a17a:6ed5:6fb1]
 364 2013-05-14 04:01:07 <cjd> not fun to type
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 370 2013-05-14 04:08:57 <Luke-Jr> cjd: names can be local
 371 2013-05-14 04:10:09 <cjd> yeah but if I tell you about a site it's nice for you to be able to type it in
 372 2013-05-14 04:11:04 <cjd> granted typing names is so much less important than it was in the late 90's
 373 2013-05-14 04:13:51 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 374 2013-05-14 04:13:56 <shesek> I understand that with type-2 deterministic wallets, its not safe to give the private key for one of the addresses (knowing both the master public key and one private key could expose the primary private key). is there any way around that?
 375 2013-05-14 04:14:29 <shesek> I'm referring to https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=19137.0
 376 2013-05-14 04:14:30 XertroV has joined
 377 2013-05-14 04:14:32 * shesek pings gmaxwell 
 378 2013-05-14 04:14:38 <Luke-Jr> shesek: don't disclose the master public key
 379 2013-05-14 04:14:48 <Luke-Jr> shesek: also, the BIP might be more up to date
 380 2013-05-14 04:15:42 <Luke-Jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0032
 381 2013-05-14 04:15:53 <shesek> the BIP mentions this weakness too
 382 2013-05-14 04:16:05 <shesek> "One weakness that may not be immediately obvious, is that knowledge of the extended public key + a private key descending from it is equivalent to knowing the extended private key"
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 387 2013-05-14 04:18:32 <Diablo-D3> http://highscalability.com/blog/2013/5/13/the-secret-to-10-million-concurrent-connections-the-kernel-i.html
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 391 2013-05-14 04:22:29 <ezdiy> Diablo-D3: i suspect cf already do something like that
 392 2013-05-14 04:22:33 <ezdiy> for their anycast tcp
 393 2013-05-14 04:23:32 <iddo_> shesek: our way around that is to use type-1 to break the key homomorphism, see the discussion starting at page 6 of that thread
 394 2013-05-14 04:24:13 <iddo_> shesek: and you can expose the master pubkey itself, just not the master chaincode (seed)
 395 2013-05-14 04:25:00 wamatt has joined
 396 2013-05-14 04:26:04 * gmaxwell is glad that he doesn't have to constantly watch IRC— so many other people with good answers.
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 399 2013-05-14 04:28:58 a_meteorite has joined
 400 2013-05-14 04:29:16 <iddo_> gmaxwell: here's a job for you, can you take a look at the way i described to trade coins between chains without trust/extortion and verify whether it works? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=193281.msg2058662#msg2058662
 401 2013-05-14 04:29:48 CodeShark_ has joined
 402 2013-05-14 04:31:16 <cjd> xD
 403 2013-05-14 04:31:37 <gmaxwell> iddo_: I did that job so fast that it was done 11 months ago.
 404 2013-05-14 04:31:49 <gmaxwell> iddo_: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91843.msg1011956#msg1011956 (and two messages down)
 405 2013-05-14 04:32:06 <iddo_> gmaxwell: i'm not completely sure about your way to avoid extortion by preparing the nlocktime payback txn, when you give it to the other person to sign, he has to verify that he isn't signing another txn that spend other coins of his?
 406 2013-05-14 04:33:40 <shesek> iddo_, I want to be able to generate addresses on machines that can't sign transactions
 407 2013-05-14 04:33:53 <iddo_> gmaxwell: i glanced at that thread before, but the idea there seemed a little different, and you mentioned extortion risk, i'll look again
 408 2013-05-14 04:34:22 <gmaxwell> iddo_: I mentioned using nlock time two posts down to create refunds, not sure if I proposed exactly the same protocol.
 409 2013-05-14 04:34:25 CodeShark_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 410 2013-05-14 04:35:09 <iddo_> shesek: sure, you'd use type-2 for that, it's just that the root node that you'd use can be derived with type-1, to confine any possible leakage only to the addresses that interest you
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 416 2013-05-14 04:41:18 <gmaxwell> iddo_: actually looking at your post— as tiernolan says, they way you're describing the refund isn't how nlocktime works. You can get that behavior by presigning locked refund transactions. If you need to be sure what the prior txn you're signing is you can make it known but still unannouncable by making it an orphan (e.g. an extra non-public input)
 417 2013-05-14 04:41:18 <iddo_> gmaxwell: ok, so i suppose it's the same, my idea was based on your https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/why_hash_locked anyway, but what about the issue of being careful when signing the refund txn? the signer sees that hash of the payment txn as the input txn, but he has to make sure that it doesn't fit other coins that he controls, otherwise you could trick him to spend his other coins?
 418 2013-05-14 04:41:55 rdponticelli has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 419 2013-05-14 04:42:00 <gmaxwell> iddo_: people should never be reusing addresses, if you never reuse addresses— no issue.
 420 2013-05-14 04:42:03 <gmaxwell> :P
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 427 2013-05-14 04:44:32 <iddo_> you mean that if you never reuse addresses then we cannot trick because we wouldn't know the pubkey of your unspent coins?
 428 2013-05-14 04:44:48 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
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 430 2013-05-14 04:46:20 <gmaxwell> iddo_: I mean _you'd_ know which coins you were spending with, because the only time the pubkey you're signing with had _ever_ been used is in the output of that transaction.
 431 2013-05-14 04:46:39 <gmaxwell> no risk of it being some other coin, you generated the pubkey just for this trade.
 432 2013-05-14 04:47:04 <iddo_> ahh
 433 2013-05-14 04:47:06 <gmaxwell> and if the guy trading with you randomly sent some extra coins to that address ... just to steal them back... well... good for him. :P
 434 2013-05-14 04:47:09 <iddo_> that's simple
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 440 2013-05-14 04:55:15 <iddo_> gmaxwell: more generally the idea here is that if the digital data X that you wish to sell (with no trust involved) can be random data, then you don't need the extra ZK proof
 441 2013-05-14 04:55:17 pacpac has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 442 2013-05-14 04:57:28 <iddo_> i tried to think of an example of e.g. selling serials of online multiplayer games, where the server supports ownership transfer where the player signs with his identity on the server a message that transfer the serial to another identity (with time lock), and the data X is this signature
 443 2013-05-14 04:58:38 <iddo_> but still the data X can be random, by simply adding to the signature hash(X) and having the signature valid only if X is revealed
 444 2013-05-14 04:59:44 <iddo_> so i'm trying to think of examples where X cannot be random, so that ZK proofs will be useful there
 445 2013-05-14 05:01:06 sacarlson has joined
 446 2013-05-14 05:01:28 <iddo_> for example if X is a counterexample to the Goldbach conjecture (even number that isn't sum of two primes), then you can sell X via ZK proof
 447 2013-05-14 05:02:41 <iddo_> though i'm looking for hopefully much more mundane use cases
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 465 2013-05-14 05:22:50 <gmaxwell> iddo_: dude, I describe it in the page. A solution to any NP problem.  A key to a crypto system. An energy minimizing solution to a protein folding. A picture a complex non-linear computer vision program believes you'd find beautiful.
 466 2013-05-14 05:23:08 Happzz has joined
 467 2013-05-14 05:23:29 <amiller> you know how people complain about bayesians and frequentists fighting
 468 2013-05-14 05:23:34 Thepok has joined
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 470 2013-05-14 05:23:37 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 471 2013-05-14 05:23:40 <amiller> it should really be about cryptographers vs the bayesian
 472 2013-05-14 05:23:40 <gmaxwell> ('A key to a crypto system' e.g. magic vendor keys that break drm)
 473 2013-05-14 05:23:41 <amiller> s
 474 2013-05-14 05:25:04 seeingidog__ has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 475 2013-05-14 05:27:41 p8m has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 476 2013-05-14 05:29:57 <amiller> because the big bone to pick with bayesians that they make big decisions that relying assuming things are randomly distributed according to observable probabilities
 477 2013-05-14 05:30:32 seeingidog__ has joined
 478 2013-05-14 05:30:39 FredEE_ has joined
 479 2013-05-14 05:31:02 <CodeShark> a true bayesian would probably argue that the distribution is simply due to symmetry in the a priori knowledge
 480 2013-05-14 05:31:29 <CodeShark> and might argue that the distribution is then constrained by knowledge
 481 2013-05-14 05:31:42 <CodeShark> but represents the state of maximal entropy subject to those constraints
 482 2013-05-14 05:31:42 SteveDekorte has quit (Quit: SteveDekorte)
 483 2013-05-14 05:31:54 <CodeShark> i.e. it's a state of knowledge, not a statement of reality
 484 2013-05-14 05:31:54 asoltys_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 485 2013-05-14 05:32:32 <CodeShark> "true bayesian" is an unfortunate choice of scotsman...I should have worded it better :p
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 489 2013-05-14 05:32:54 <Diablo-D3> bah laddy, everyone knows a true scotsman is a bayesian too!
 490 2013-05-14 05:33:33 <CodeShark> bayesians love haggis too?
 491 2013-05-14 05:33:46 jaequery has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 494 2013-05-14 05:34:11 <Diablo-D3> who doesnt?
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 497 2013-05-14 05:34:36 <Diablo-D3> its like sausage with a thick outside
 498 2013-05-14 05:34:51 <CodeShark> what's the probability that a bayesian likes haggis given that he's not a scotsman?
 499 2013-05-14 05:35:13 <Diablo-D3> I dunno, lets ask harry potter.
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 504 2013-05-14 05:37:24 <iddo_> gmaxwell: yes those are very nice use cases, thanks, actually as you say any NP complete would be nice, the seller spends <= exponential time to solve an instance of the problem, then uses ZK proof for the computation that verifies his witness (this is much more mundane than open num theory conjectures)
 505 2013-05-14 05:38:31 savetheinternet has joined
 506 2013-05-14 05:40:14 <amiller> CodeShark, or, whats the probability that my particular tx is going to be zero-conf double-spended
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 510 2013-05-14 05:40:26 <amiller> is it reasonable to add up all the txes and divide by double-spends
 511 2013-05-14 05:40:42 <gmaxwell> well, sadly, I'm not actually sure how useful most of those are.  Basic escrow transactions plus mediation to prevent holdup does a lot and doesn't need so much cryptographic wizadry.
 512 2013-05-14 05:41:11 <gmaxwell> amiller: bayesians seem to be pretty willing to cheat with all kinds of really high entropy priors.
 513 2013-05-14 05:41:43 <amiller> i think that approach is kind of the antithesis to security science then
 514 2013-05-14 05:41:43 AndChat64721 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 515 2013-05-14 05:41:47 <amiller> or maybe its dual or something
 516 2013-05-14 05:43:59 <CodeShark> amiller: in absence of any further information, that could very well be reasonable
 517 2013-05-14 05:44:10 MiningBuddy has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 518 2013-05-14 05:44:39 <CodeShark> and when applied to ensembles, it actually can yield useful predictions
 519 2013-05-14 05:44:46 realazthat_ has joined
 520 2013-05-14 05:44:49 <CodeShark> but when applied to individual events, it might be utterly useless
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 526 2013-05-14 05:46:02 <CodeShark> unless you have some understanding for the relationship between cause and effect, you'll probably be limited to only making ensemble predictions
 527 2013-05-14 05:46:03 <iddo_> gmaxwell: we wouldn't need escrow for selling digital data if the compiler for ZK proof of computation is efficient enough, and there are use cases where you don't sell anything, e.g. proving how many bitcoins you possess without revealing your addresses
 528 2013-05-14 05:47:08 <CodeShark> ensemble predictions are still good enough to give casinos an edge
 529 2013-05-14 05:47:30 <amiller> yeah, agreed, my favorite example is from a book and it's about a fishpacking plant that uses computer vision to sort fish on a conveyor belt
 530 2013-05-14 05:47:36 <gmaxwell> iddo_: "meh" if that use case came up people would show up to provide proxied cash proofs quite quickly.
 531 2013-05-14 05:47:49 <amiller> and they lose more money if they put tuna in a salmon can rather than if they put salmnon in the tuna can so they set their bayesian behavior for maximal profit
 532 2013-05-14 05:48:25 <iddo_> gmaxwell: i don't understand, what do you mean by proxied cash proofs ?
 533 2013-05-14 05:48:38 <gmaxwell> amiller: sure, not unusual to differentially cost type-1/type-2 errors. Some machine learning software directly supports weighted margin training for that too.
 534 2013-05-14 05:48:42 <amiller> but still that doesn't necessarily help individuals make decisions about an individual decision with limited information
 535 2013-05-14 05:49:17 <gmaxwell> iddo_: you want amiller to prove he has 100 BTC... but he doesn't. He comes to me and asks me to do the proof for him, and what the heck— I do for 0.01 btc.. it's anonymous anyways, costs me almost nothing. :P
 536 2013-05-14 05:49:21 <amiller> i guess that's where anonymity helps you blend in and make yourself more of an accurately random target
 537 2013-05-14 05:50:11 <iddo_> gmaxwell: i see
 538 2013-05-14 05:50:44 <amiller> iddo_, it's a good idea though keep going - you can also do zero knowledge proofs about some status of your coins in the block chain, like that at some block it's timelocked in someway
 539 2013-05-14 05:51:24 <gmaxwell> iddo_: in any case, you wouldn't _need_ escrow.. but it's a heck of a lot easier to implement.... setup... be confident that it's secure... etc.
 540 2013-05-14 05:51:25 <amiller> then the person consuming this proof, combined with their observation of the blockchain, knows that the 100 coins is available in some way
 541 2013-05-14 05:52:18 <gmaxwell> And today we live on an internet where there is no easy package for us to go grab and perform a decenteralized secret ballot vote among our friends on IRC... I will not hold my breath on ZKP overtaking escrow txn anytime soon. :P
 542 2013-05-14 05:53:46 <iddo_> gmaxwell: how about proving that you sent bitcoins to some public address of a merchant (or e.g. wikileaks), without revealing your address ? the ZK proof will be of the computation where you signed the txn with your privkey to the merchant address and that this txn is buried in the next e.g. 6 PoW blocks
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 546 2013-05-14 05:57:51 <gmaxwell> iddo_: well, the height there might give reduce your anonymity set a lot... but sure.
 547 2013-05-14 05:58:25 <gmaxwell> Alternatively something like wikileaks could offer blind signatures along with every donation, thereby giving people donation tokes they could use for such proof and enjoy a much large anonymity set.
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 552 2013-05-14 06:00:51 <iddo_> gmaxwell: about proof that you possess coins, it still might be useful, e.g. if you're speculator who hold 100,000 BTC and you do ZK proof for signed msg that you think that the USD/BTC price will go up, if you don't actually have 100,000 BTC and you ask another person who has 100000 BTC to do it, he might ask for more than 0.01 BTC as payment, if he thinks that this statement will affect the USD/BTC price
 553 2013-05-14 06:02:25 <iddo_> i don't sound too convincing :(
 554 2013-05-14 06:02:41 <ezdiy> nah, billionaire-sign-as-a-service is certainly viable
 555 2013-05-14 06:02:49 <iddo_> gmaxwell: not sure i understand about why the height reduces you anonymity?
 556 2013-05-14 06:02:56 <ezdiy> iddo_: in fact, every bigger exchange can do it
 557 2013-05-14 06:03:01 <iddo_> s/you/your
 558 2013-05-14 06:03:04 <gmaxwell> iddo_: what if there was only one payment to WL in the last six blocks?
 559 2013-05-14 06:03:35 <iddo_> gmaxwell: ahh, small height, ok
 560 2013-05-14 06:03:54 <gmaxwell> iddo_: there are applications for it, I imagine, but many applications for it are actually hurt by the privacy of it instead of helped.
 561 2013-05-14 06:04:12 <iddo_> why hurt?
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 565 2013-05-14 06:07:03 <gmaxwell> iddo_: because it makes billionaire-sign-as-a-service viable.
 566 2013-05-14 06:07:09 <amiller> that kind of proof is a lot like the proofs of stake
 567 2013-05-14 06:07:36 <gmaxwell> wherease if you know which coins are in question your ability to be bambozled by that is at least limited to how much coin the billionaire proxy signers have.
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 569 2013-05-14 06:09:13 <iddo_> i see
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 571 2013-05-14 06:09:32 <MC1984> maporphan overflow
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 574 2013-05-14 06:09:35 <MC1984> cool
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 738 2013-05-14 09:58:24 <wallet43> who increased the difficulty again??
 739 2013-05-14 09:59:03 <BlueMatt> avalon?
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 751 2013-05-14 10:06:33 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: has Avalon actually shipped anything since the last difficulty increase? XD
 752 2013-05-14 10:07:18 <BlueMatt> no idea, but its probably some combination of a ton of new users due to press and asics
 753 2013-05-14 10:09:27 <warren> You don't think it's ASICMINER?
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 757 2013-05-14 10:12:25 <BlueMatt> that falls under "asics" :)
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 761 2013-05-14 10:13:46 <wallet431> how much faster would an altcoin wich has signatures with curve25519 be compared to bitcoin?
 762 2013-05-14 10:14:20 <chmod755> wallet431, 5mph
 763 2013-05-14 10:14:42 <wallet431> mph?
 764 2013-05-14 10:15:54 <wallet431> oh you mean 8.04 km/h
 765 2013-05-14 10:15:55 <chmod755> wallet431, miles per hour
 766 2013-05-14 10:15:58 <chmod755> ofc
 767 2013-05-14 10:16:04 <wallet431> well thats quite faster
 768 2013-05-14 10:16:07 <sipa> wallet431: do you mean OpenSSL ECDSA as we do today, or another implementation that does all potential optimizations specific for secp256k?
 769 2013-05-14 10:18:17 <wallet431> gmaxwell has listed ed25519 on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/alt_ideas
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 771 2013-05-14 10:18:38 <BlueMatt> ed25519 is nice for other reasons too
 772 2013-05-14 10:19:04 <wallet431> so i wonder if its significantly faster than secp256k1
 773 2013-05-14 10:19:11 <BlueMatt> (deterministic sigs, etc)
 774 2013-05-14 10:19:17 <wallet431> (if some day we has 1000 tx/s
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 778 2013-05-14 10:20:08 <wallet431> could it be added with the current scripting?
 779 2013-05-14 10:20:20 <wallet431> OP_CHECKSIG_ED25519?
 780 2013-05-14 10:20:43 <sipa> wallet431: with a hardfork
 781 2013-05-14 10:21:00 <sipa> BlueMatt: you can do deterministic sigs with ecdsa too :)
 782 2013-05-14 10:22:12 <wallet431> BlueMatt, what else is ed25519 good for?
 783 2013-05-14 10:22:18 Aurigae has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 784 2013-05-14 10:23:13 <sipa> and ed25519 needs a modification to support pubkey recovery
 785 2013-05-14 10:25:16 <wallet431> wow http://ed25519.cr.yp.to/python/ed25519.py is incredibly small
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 788 2013-05-14 10:27:58 <wallet431> deteministic sigs means always the same for the same input?
 789 2013-05-14 10:28:17 <sipa> for the same key/msg combination
 790 2013-05-14 10:29:09 <wallet431> so the attack of recovering the privkey when using 2 time the same random for different messages is not a threat
 791 2013-05-14 10:30:37 Miralo has joined
 792 2013-05-14 10:31:23 <sipa> indeed, it means no randomness is consumed for signing a message
 793 2013-05-14 10:31:27 <sipa> only for key generation
 794 2013-05-14 10:32:01 <wallet431> cryptography == magic lol
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 813 2013-05-14 10:57:39 <t7> cryptography is just math
 814 2013-05-14 10:57:59 <t7> everything is math i guess
 815 2013-05-14 10:58:59 <nsh> only to a first approximation
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 819 2013-05-14 11:00:23 <hazrd> hi everyone
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 821 2013-05-14 11:00:42 zz_highPriestLOL is now known as highPriestLOL
 822 2013-05-14 11:00:56 <hazrd> i've been trying to configure slush's stratum pool, but keep on getting exceptions http://pastebin.com/Pe0enNqx could someone point me in a direction to fix this?
 823 2013-05-14 11:01:19 <michagogo> hazrd: There's a #bitcoin-mining, I believe
 824 2013-05-14 11:01:35 <hazrd> michagogo, perfect - thank you!
 825 2013-05-14 11:02:09 <BlueMatt> sipa: I was under the impression you couldnt with our curve?
 826 2013-05-14 11:03:29 <sipa> BlueMatt: "our curve" ?
 827 2013-05-14 11:03:33 <sipa> secp256k1 you mean?
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 829 2013-05-14 11:03:43 <BlueMatt> yes
 830 2013-05-14 11:03:58 <sipa> how do you think message signing works? :p
 831 2013-05-14 11:04:40 <michagogo> Wow, there are a *lot* of results for /msg alis list #bitcoin*
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 833 2013-05-14 11:04:50 <BlueMatt> why does message signing require deterministic sigs?
 834 2013-05-14 11:05:08 <michagogo> 2 pages plus part of a 3rd page (more than 120, fewer than 180)
 835 2013-05-14 11:05:20 <sipa> BlueMatt: it doesn't
 836 2013-05-14 11:05:33 <BlueMatt> are we discussing different things then?
 837 2013-05-14 11:05:36 <sipa> BlueMatt: i was talking about pubkey recovery, not deterministic sigs
 838 2013-05-14 11:05:41 <BlueMatt> <sipa> BlueMatt: you can do deterministic sigs with ecdsa too :)
 839 2013-05-14 11:05:42 <BlueMatt> ahh
 840 2013-05-14 11:05:47 <BlueMatt> well then we were
 841 2013-05-14 11:06:10 <sipa> but you can do the latter with ecdsa too: just use HMAC(key=privkey,msg=msg) as nonce in the ECDSA signing algorithm
 842 2013-05-14 11:06:31 Mr_G has joined
 843 2013-05-14 11:06:50 <michagogo> Hmm, just noticed something in the rc
 844 2013-05-14 11:07:13 <michagogo> The "9 hours behind" bar seems to actually be how many hours since last block you got
 845 2013-05-14 11:07:22 <michagogo> ;;tblb 60
 846 2013-05-14 11:07:23 <gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 1 minute and 0 seconds to generate is 9 minutes and 36 seconds
 847 2013-05-14 11:07:26 <michagogo> uh
 848 2013-05-14 11:07:30 <michagogo> ;;tblb 3600
 849 2013-05-14 11:07:31 <gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 1 hour and 0 seconds to generate is 6 days, 15 hours, 14 minutes, and 56 seconds
 850 2013-05-14 11:07:40 <michagogo> But that will be wrong about once a week
 851 2013-05-14 11:08:19 one_zero has quit ()
 852 2013-05-14 11:08:41 <sipa> yes, it's an approximation in any case
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 855 2013-05-14 11:12:25 <BlueMatt> sipa: ok, but we cant enforce that when we check sigs, no?
 856 2013-05-14 11:12:54 <sipa> you can't enforce that at all, and there's no reason for it either
 857 2013-05-14 11:13:09 grazs_ has left ()
 858 2013-05-14 11:13:14 <sipa> it's just a way for the signer to protect himself from the effects of bad randomness
 859 2013-05-14 11:13:25 <BlueMatt> tx determinism?
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 861 2013-05-14 11:14:36 <sipa> deterministic signatures
 862 2013-05-14 11:18:10 _W_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 863 2013-05-14 11:19:30 <nsh> (reused nonces give away private keys)
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 866 2013-05-14 11:20:56 <sipa> nsh: when used for the same message
 867 2013-05-14 11:21:08 <nsh> right
 868 2013-05-14 11:21:41 <sipa> wait, no
 869 2013-05-14 11:21:56 <michagogo> ;;bcverify HK+exhkVT9eQ2oNyRZOLry4bhFdgq8NosYWtHKw5UXN3PJZ2ov7/sY0YtOY43kaz9DAc+Uu2SsfBCbyxWkNlPdU=
 870 2013-05-14 11:21:58 <gribble> You are now authenticated for user 'michagogo' with address 18xRDaxdJudfk5U943GNTsWfvg1soouPbc
 871 2013-05-14 11:22:08 <michagogo> gah
 872 2013-05-14 11:22:14 <michagogo> I thought I'd switched :-/
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 875 2013-05-14 11:24:28 <alaricsp> Dear devs, has anyone given any thought to recurring payments for subscriptions? Should that be handled by the vendor requesting a payment every period, with a deadline, or might there be interest in supporting a schedule periodic payments withing bitcoin-qt or bitcoind, and allowing one payment request to set up such a schedule?
 876 2013-05-14 11:24:36 AusBitBank has joined
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 878 2013-05-14 11:25:05 <michagogo> alaricsp: Just set up a cronjob to use bitcoind on the command line
 879 2013-05-14 11:25:08 <michagogo> or something
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 884 2013-05-14 11:26:40 <michagogo> alaricsp: I mean, in theory you could make a bunch of timelocked transactions for the future
 885 2013-05-14 11:27:02 <michagogo> And give them to the vendor to broadcast, and then you could cancel them by doublespending the inputs
 886 2013-05-14 11:27:32 <michagogo> But that would mean tying up the funds then
 887 2013-05-14 11:27:37 <alaricsp> Yeah, but that's not very fruendly for Joe Average User who wants to sign up for his pornsite subscription
 888 2013-05-14 11:27:38 Blackreign has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
 889 2013-05-14 11:27:56 <michagogo> Right
 890 2013-05-14 11:28:00 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 891 2013-05-14 11:28:06 <alaricsp> "fruendly" is a new word I just made up, but for now imagine I meant "friendly".
 892 2013-05-14 11:28:42 <alaricsp> In my Evil Banking Empire online account, I can look at a list of "standing orders" (UK terminology?), add new ones, cancel existing ones, etc.
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 897 2013-05-14 11:30:22 <milkshakey> Luke-Jr, stop 51% attacking my coin
 898 2013-05-14 11:30:40 <sipa> what coin?
 899 2013-05-14 11:30:58 <milkshakey> elacoin
 900 2013-05-14 11:32:04 <rdymac> (umbr)elacoin?
 901 2013-05-14 11:32:31 <milkshakey> elasticoin :P
 902 2013-05-14 11:32:39 <alaricsp> What's it do?
 903 2013-05-14 11:32:49 <milkshakey> It's being 51% attacked by Luke Jr
 904 2013-05-14 11:33:02 <milkshakey> I don't think he should be a core dev.
 905 2013-05-14 11:33:58 <rdymac> it looks like ecochele
 906 2013-05-14 11:34:13 <rdymac> Skype is p2p?
 907 2013-05-14 11:34:33 <alaricsp> milkshakey: Perhaps he needs a cuddle. Have you tried cuddling him?
 908 2013-05-14 11:34:33 <milkshakey> used to be
 909 2013-05-14 11:34:41 * milkshakey cuddles Luke-Jr with a sharp knife
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 921 2013-05-14 11:47:11 <davout> he's like on some sort of crusade
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 935 2013-05-14 11:56:04 <sturles> Scamcoin attack?
 936 2013-05-14 11:56:10 <sturles> Luke-Jr: Can I join?
 937 2013-05-14 11:56:40 <davout> lol
 938 2013-05-14 11:57:24 <sturles> You know it is a scamcoin whent it is "my coin". :-)
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 949 2013-05-14 12:19:12 <k00shi> It's incredible that there are over 500 people in here these days.
 950 2013-05-14 12:19:14 debiantoruser has joined
 951 2013-05-14 12:19:17 <k00shi> Wasn't it less than 50 half a year ago?
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 955 2013-05-14 12:21:17 <gjs278> mm no, it's always been a lot here, I don't think it was 50 just 6 months ago
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 959 2013-05-14 12:21:59 * MCM-Mike is just an observer where the developing is going :) 
 960 2013-05-14 12:22:58 <wallet431> sipa: whats pubkey recovery?
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1017 2013-05-14 12:56:20 <Primosz> Hi there people.
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1039 2013-05-14 13:13:08 <pigeons> wallet431: i think pubkey recovery is deriving the pubkey from an ecdsa signature
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1171 2013-05-14 15:00:55 <gmaxwell> sipa: Your graphs need reranging: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-10k.png
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1278 2013-05-14 15:59:58 <michaelwholley> Is the core Bitcoin technology still under development or just the clients?
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1282 2013-05-14 16:01:44 <nsh> how the clients interact is the core technology of bitcoin
1283 2013-05-14 16:02:14 phantomcircuit has joined
1284 2013-05-14 16:02:43 <michaelwholley> Okay.
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1286 2013-05-14 16:03:42 <michaelwholley> I was wondering if it were possible to add support to Bitcoin to add an identity, for those who wish to, to make it easier to interact with than just a non-rememberable long string of random alpha-numeric characters.
1287 2013-05-14 16:04:39 <gmaxwell> michaelwholley: you'd do something like that externally to bitcoin.
1288 2013-05-14 16:04:42 OneFixt_ is now known as OneFixt
1289 2013-05-14 16:05:13 <michaelwholley> gmaxwell, kind of like a DNS service?
1290 2013-05-14 16:06:57 <gmaxwell> If you like, there are many ways to accomplish things like that.  DNS as commonly used is highly vulnerable to man in the middle attacks.
1291 2013-05-14 16:07:02 <BlueMatt> there have been 100 suggestions on how to do it, dns included
1292 2013-05-14 16:07:28 <BlueMatt> but, yea, have to enforce DNSSEC on the client side (in rare occasions, this is impossible)
1293 2013-05-14 16:07:47 chax has joined
1294 2013-05-14 16:09:20 <michaelwholley> Is there a way, BlueMatt, to use a nickname system to identify people in a decentralized manner, not via a centralized DNS service?
1295 2013-05-14 16:10:09 <michagogo> Well, there's something like what namecoin does
1296 2013-05-14 16:10:22 michagogo has quit (Quit: Chag Sameach.)
1297 2013-05-14 16:10:43 <BlueMatt> there are literally hundreds of ways to do that...namecoin, DNS, HTTPS servers, etc, etc
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1305 2013-05-14 16:13:48 <michaelwholley> BlueMatt, I'll check out namecoin but where can I learn more about these hundreds of ways?
1306 2013-05-14 16:13:59 <BlueMatt> be creative?
1307 2013-05-14 16:13:59 chorao has joined
1308 2013-05-14 16:14:15 <michaelwholley> Thanks for the help, I just want to make sure I'm not reinventing the wheel.
1309 2013-05-14 16:14:15 <keystroke> hey BlueMatt.. was talking with someone at unc's comp sci phd program recently...
1310 2013-05-14 16:14:21 <BlueMatt> google distributed identity?
1311 2013-05-14 16:14:29 <BlueMatt> there are many ways to do it
1312 2013-05-14 16:14:31 <keystroke> you should come to the raleigh btc meetup sometime :)
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1314 2013-05-14 16:14:41 <BlueMatt> keystroke: who?
1315 2013-05-14 16:14:47 <keystroke> mac
1316 2013-05-14 16:14:48 <BlueMatt> keystroke: yes, if I had a car I would...
1317 2013-05-14 16:14:56 jercos_ is now known as jercos
1318 2013-05-14 16:14:59 <BlueMatt> ahh, yes, I know him
1319 2013-05-14 16:15:30 <keystroke> oh we carpool sometimes!
1320 2013-05-14 16:15:39 <keystroke> i didn't know you were in the area until i was doing whois on the dns seednodes for fun...
1321 2013-05-14 16:15:40 <keystroke> haha
1322 2013-05-14 16:15:44 <BlueMatt> ahh, well ping me next time
1323 2013-05-14 16:16:09 <keystroke> will do!
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1328 2013-05-14 16:16:31 <keystroke> i will be out of the country for the june meeting but back in july.. but i will have someone ping you if you are free... it is a good group
1329 2013-05-14 16:16:44 <BlueMatt> Im out of the country until the next school year, essentially
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1331 2013-05-14 16:17:59 <keystroke> cool! well nice meeting you, going to run now :)
1332 2013-05-14 16:18:23 <keystroke> btw any idea on final 0.8.2 release? prior to the hardfork event?
1333 2013-05-14 16:18:46 <BlueMatt> probably, havent heard anything, so I assume soonish
1334 2013-05-14 16:18:59 <BlueMatt> but I havent been reading scrollbacks so...dunno?
1335 2013-05-14 16:19:37 <keystroke> ok, neat, will be good to see a smooth transition tonight
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1337 2013-05-14 16:19:59 <BlueMatt> oh, today's the 14th
1338 2013-05-14 16:20:01 <BlueMatt> well then no probably not
1339 2013-05-14 16:20:05 <BlueMatt> but soon enough
1340 2013-05-14 16:20:23 * BlueMatt never remembers dates...
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1344 2013-05-14 16:21:59 <buZz> ehr
1345 2013-05-14 16:22:07 <buZz> why is there all this news about a fork
1346 2013-05-14 16:22:13 <buZz> is there really gonna be a fork?
1347 2013-05-14 16:22:18 <gmaxwell> buZz: huh? what news are you talking about?
1348 2013-05-14 16:22:35 <buZz> i thought the transition to 0.8.1 would be one that didnt need a fork
1349 2013-05-14 16:22:35 <BlueMatt> probably, but probably not in the first few blocks
1350 2013-05-14 16:22:45 <BlueMatt> who knows though, maybe a miner will decide to be evil
1351 2013-05-14 16:23:10 <buZz> gmaxwell: stuff like http://siliconangle.com/blog/2013/05/13/bitcoin-blockchain-hard-fork-coming-may-15th-final-warning/
1352 2013-05-14 16:23:51 <gmaxwell> buZz: notice that the article there says that its own headline is misleading.
1353 2013-05-14 16:24:30 <gmaxwell> I think it's not unlikely that there will be no blocks built on a dead stub because of this...
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1356 2013-05-14 16:25:36 <buZz> gmaxwell: yes i know, but this kind of news is causing a lot of waves
1357 2013-05-14 16:25:49 <buZz> well, we'll see what the turnout will be
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1360 2013-05-14 16:26:38 <nsh> the sky can't fall on your head if you're already deep underground
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1364 2013-05-14 16:27:48 <gmaxwell> buZz: what waves where?
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1369 2013-05-14 16:31:20 <buZz> gmaxwell: dont worry about it ;)
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1371 2013-05-14 16:31:55 <gmaxwell> buZz: I mean, if you're gonna claim it's "making waves" you might expect people to ask what you're talking about.
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1378 2013-05-14 16:35:01 <wamatt> buZz: have no idea what ur on about… haven't seen any waves about forks lately
1379 2013-05-14 16:35:44 <wamatt> i wouldnt worry much about it :)
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1381 2013-05-14 16:37:04 <buZz> i never worry about money :D
1382 2013-05-14 16:37:13 <buZz> besides, worrying is abuse of imagination
1383 2013-05-14 16:37:31 johnsoft1 has joined
1384 2013-05-14 16:38:37 <LorenzoMoney> buZz: I really like what you just said: Worry is Abuse of Imagination. I think I will modify it to be Anxiety is Abuse of Imagination!! Brilliant
1385 2013-05-14 16:38:41 johnsoft2 has joined
1386 2013-05-14 16:39:08 <buZz> sure, everything i say is public domain ;)
1387 2013-05-14 16:39:10 * nsh shoots LorenzoMoney in the genitals
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1460 2013-05-14 17:37:22 <r0sc0e> what can i do to make the synchronization of my bitcoin-qt 0.8.1 faster? have to synchronize about 1300 blocks
1461 2013-05-14 17:37:32 <r0sc0e> and i see about 50 kb/s speed
1462 2013-05-14 17:37:41 <r0sc0e> with an 50 mbit line
1463 2013-05-14 17:37:44 <r0sc0e> any ideas?
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1466 2013-05-14 17:40:52 <helo> your transfer rate largely depends on what node you're downloading from. not sure how you can force it to try a different node...
1467 2013-05-14 17:41:29 <CodeShark> use addnode
1468 2013-05-14 17:41:36 <r0sc0e> or to try more than one node?
1469 2013-05-14 17:41:36 <CodeShark> or connect
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1472 2013-05-14 17:41:44 <r0sc0e> via debug-console?
1473 2013-05-14 17:42:01 <helo> CodeShark: addnode/connect will change the synching node to the one specified?
1474 2013-05-14 17:42:12 <CodeShark> yes
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1476 2013-05-14 17:42:24 <CodeShark> they are startup options
1477 2013-05-14 17:42:43 <r0sc0e> i have no ip for a fast node
1478 2013-05-14 17:42:43 <CodeShark> so you have to either stick them into the config file or use them in the command to launch bitcoin-qt
1479 2013-05-14 17:42:49 <r0sc0e> what to do now?
1480 2013-05-14 17:43:04 <helo> r0sc0e: you can look at 'getpeerinfo' to see the peers you're currently using
1481 2013-05-14 17:43:06 chmod755 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1482 2013-05-14 17:43:20 <helo> not sure if 0.8.1 shows which node is the sync node
1483 2013-05-14 17:43:57 <helo> hopefully this will be a non-issue with 0.9
1484 2013-05-14 17:44:27 caedes has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1485 2013-05-14 17:44:30 <r0sc0e> i have 11 nodes right now
1486 2013-05-14 17:44:50 <r0sc0e> but only 9 kb/s speed
1487 2013-05-14 17:44:53 ASSNTITTIES has joined
1488 2013-05-14 17:44:55 <r0sc0e> crazy
1489 2013-05-14 17:44:57 <helo> it only downloads from one at a time
1490 2013-05-14 17:45:05 kanzure has joined
1491 2013-05-14 17:45:08 <helo> you're just stuck on a slow synching node
1492 2013-05-14 17:45:24 lolcookie has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1493 2013-05-14 17:45:30 <CodeShark> the network code could use plenty of improvements :)
1494 2013-05-14 17:45:43 ASSNTITTIES is now known as lolcookie
1495 2013-05-14 17:47:12 <helo> r0sc0e: you can restart the client and it may pick a different sync node
1496 2013-05-14 17:47:24 <r0sc0e> yap
1497 2013-05-14 17:47:27 <r0sc0e> i will try
1498 2013-05-14 17:47:29 <r0sc0e> thanks for help
1499 2013-05-14 17:47:57 <helo> btw, using addnode from the debug console doesn't change the sync node while the client is running
1500 2013-05-14 17:48:10 <helo> and it apparently can establish multiple connections to the same node
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1504 2013-05-14 17:50:01 <helo> maybe i'm doing this wrong, but i can't seem to "addnode <ip> remove" for an ip i just added
1505 2013-05-14 17:50:25 <helo> Error: Node has not been added.
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1539 2013-05-14 18:28:36 <yubrew> Hello
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1558 2013-05-14 18:58:16 <ikea_meatballs> anyone wannna help me build a ppcoin block chain explorer ?? $$$$$
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1590 2013-05-14 19:30:44 <yubrew> I have bitcoind set up on an ubuntu server. How does JSON-RPC interact with the bitcoind?
1591 2013-05-14 19:31:22 <yubrew> I looked at the JSON-RPC docs, but not sure what it does that I can't do with bitcoind
1592 2013-05-14 19:32:11 <sipa> bitcoind can run either as a bitcoin node + RPC server
1593 2013-05-14 19:32:14 <sipa> or as RPC client
1594 2013-05-14 19:32:32 rbecker is now known as RBecker
1595 2013-05-14 19:32:52 <sipa> so if you type "./bitcoind getinfo", you start bitcoind as RPC client, and it's communicating with an already-running bitcoind server using JSON-RPC, sending the getinfo command, and printing the result
1596 2013-05-14 19:33:19 <yubrew> I'd like to send and receive bitcoin transactions
1597 2013-05-14 19:33:33 <yubrew> can that be done with either an RPC client or RPC server?
1598 2013-05-14 19:33:35 <sipa> listtransactions, sendtoaddress
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1600 2013-05-14 19:33:54 <sipa> i don't think you understand
1601 2013-05-14 19:34:15 <sipa> bitcoind (the bitcoin p2p client) can _only_ be interacted with using JSON-RPC
1602 2013-05-14 19:34:24 <sipa> it's the only way you can make it do something
1603 2013-05-14 19:35:25 <yubrew> ah ok, so it's how you send p2p messages?
1604 2013-05-14 19:35:40 <sipa> you don't
1605 2013-05-14 19:35:41 <Cusipzzz> uhh
1606 2013-05-14 19:35:43 <sipa> bitcoind does thta for you
1607 2013-05-14 19:36:22 Muis_ is now known as Muis
1608 2013-05-14 19:36:43 <sipa> if you want to send bitcoins to someone, you send the 'sendtoaddres' JSON-RPC call to bitcoind
1609 2013-05-14 19:37:04 <sipa> and it inspects your wallet, constructs a transaction, signs it, updates balances, ... and broadcasts it on the P2P network
1610 2013-05-14 19:37:29 <Cusipzzz> e.g. ./bitcoind sendtoaddress 157eo1r1yhmNtbmiSSNLAf87FvFLUBr1sS 100 :)
1611 2013-05-14 19:37:31 <sipa> and then returns
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1613 2013-05-14 19:38:37 <yubrew> ah i see
1614 2013-05-14 19:38:43 <yubrew> let me make sure i understand
1615 2013-05-14 19:39:03 <yubrew> so JSON-RPC is the message, like "sendtoaddress a90j2i32n342l3n4k2l3j4 1"
1616 2013-05-14 19:39:19 <sipa> yes, encoded a bit differently, but with that content, indeed
1617 2013-05-14 19:39:20 <yubrew> bitcoind interprets the JSON-RPC
1618 2013-05-14 19:39:26 <sipa> yes
1619 2013-05-14 19:39:28 <yubrew> then sends it out to other nodes
1620 2013-05-14 19:39:30 <sipa> yes
1621 2013-05-14 19:39:56 <sipa> although sending it out is the easiest part, probably
1622 2013-05-14 19:40:02 <yubrew> yes
1623 2013-05-14 19:40:05 <sipa> constructing and signing the transaction is hard :)
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1625 2013-05-14 19:40:31 <yubrew> so doesn't bitcoind check that for you?
1626 2013-05-14 19:40:43 <dugo> not that i have a chance in hell to generate a block, but from what time can i run new bitcoind in gen mode?
1627 2013-05-14 19:40:44 <sipa> of course it does
1628 2013-05-14 19:40:58 <yubrew> i'm guessing it checks something like blockexplorer for matching addresses and txid
1629 2013-05-14 19:41:03 <sipa> yubrew: HELL NO
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1631 2013-05-14 19:41:19 <sipa> yubrew: blockexplorer and co just get their data from a bitcoind :)
1632 2013-05-14 19:41:27 <yubrew> ohh ok
1633 2013-05-14 19:41:30 <sipa> it's a P2P network, there is no centralized service
1634 2013-05-14 19:41:42 <yubrew> so why do people use blockexplorer? is it just a matter of convenience?
1635 2013-05-14 19:41:45 <sipa> yes
1636 2013-05-14 19:41:50 <yubrew> thanks for being so patient sipa :)
1637 2013-05-14 19:42:02 <sipa> it has huge indexes so you can search for things based on addresses and txid
1638 2013-05-14 19:42:10 <sipa> which bitcoind can't (and doesn't need to)
1639 2013-05-14 19:42:35 <yubrew> oh, because they store transaction properties in a searchable database
1640 2013-05-14 19:43:09 <sipa> yes
1641 2013-05-14 19:44:32 <yubrew> security/best practices question
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1645 2013-05-14 19:45:11 <yubrew> what do i need to do to secure bitcoind on a web server
1646 2013-05-14 19:45:39 <sipa> does it need to be able to send?
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1648 2013-05-14 19:45:43 <yubrew> yes
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1655 2013-05-14 19:50:42 <Luke-Jr> davout_: the ironic thing is that I've never actually 51% attacked anything, or even heard of that troll's scamcoin :p
1656 2013-05-14 19:50:55 aiesl has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1657 2013-05-14 19:51:05 <sipa> coiledcoin?
1658 2013-05-14 19:51:49 taha has quit (Quit: Leaving)
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1660 2013-05-14 19:54:04 <davout_> Luke-Jr: ok my bad
1661 2013-05-14 19:54:09 <davout_> <3
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1664 2013-05-14 19:58:55 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I just 51% mined it, didn't actually attack
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1703 2013-05-14 20:33:51 <buZz> mtgox being trolled by homeland security? is it true?
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1709 2013-05-14 20:36:47 <nsh> !8ball
1710 2013-05-14 20:36:47 <gribble> No clue.
1711 2013-05-14 20:36:53 <nsh> (buZz)
1712 2013-05-14 20:37:03 <sacrelege> nope not gox.. its dwolla
1713 2013-05-14 20:37:23 <buZz> :)
1714 2013-05-14 20:37:42 <buZz> http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/8427/dwollahomelandsecurityn.jpg
1715 2013-05-14 20:37:56 <sacrelege> yeah
1716 2013-05-14 20:37:57 <sacrelege> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/
1717 2013-05-14 20:37:59 <buZz> that suggests that dwolla is not the primary target, but just mtgox's dwolla account
1718 2013-05-14 20:38:13 PhantomSpark has joined
1719 2013-05-14 20:38:17 <gonffen> did you know dwolla is from Iowa?
1720 2013-05-14 20:38:24 <gonffen> I thought that was bizzare
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1722 2013-05-14 20:40:17 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, good choice of employer
1723 2013-05-14 20:40:18 <phantomcircuit> :)
1724 2013-05-14 20:40:26 <jgarzik> BitPay news is out apparently, http://uptweet.com/viewStory?id=1257
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1729 2013-05-14 20:42:56 <buZz> gonffen: why bizar?
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1732 2013-05-14 20:43:28 <marijnfs> hello, how does a typical clean bitcoin client start? Does it do a getdata on the origin hash and start downloading from there?
1733 2013-05-14 20:44:08 <HM2> Best of luck in your new job  jgarzik
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1736 2013-05-14 20:44:28 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: hey, now I can reliably recommend BitPay
1737 2013-05-14 20:44:36 <jgarzik> Thanks :)  We'll see if bitcoin crashes and burns... and takes my family along with it ;p
1738 2013-05-14 20:44:41 <nsh> jgarzik got a job? this is not good for Romney :/
1739 2013-05-14 20:45:01 <nsh> i mean, congratulations and best wishes, obviously :)
1740 2013-05-14 20:45:09 jtimon has joined
1741 2013-05-14 20:45:29 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: last I heard you might be kinda smart...I dunno but usually smart people find work somewhere :P
1742 2013-05-14 20:45:49 <BlueMatt> (I hope you arent getting paid in bitcoin...)
1743 2013-05-14 20:46:38 <HM2> I thought Bitpay were paying a % in BTC?
1744 2013-05-14 20:47:18 <helo> being a centralized payment processor with above average resources, bitpay would do well with unlimited block sizes
1745 2013-05-14 20:47:33 <buZz> did you know, of archive.org 's employees, 33% takes their salary in bitcoin
1746 2013-05-14 20:47:59 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1747 2013-05-14 20:48:10 <buZz> (there are more than 3 ppl working there ;) )
1748 2013-05-14 20:48:44 <HM2> but only 3 are paid? :P
1749 2013-05-14 20:48:50 <buZz> hrhr
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1754 2013-05-14 20:53:24 <jgarzik> hehe, here in NC we are raised such that we don't talk about specific compensation
1755 2013-05-14 20:53:47 <jgarzik> but suffice to say, I continue to -not- be a bitcoin millionaire, and most likely, the poorest of the bitcoin devs, in terms of bitcoins
1756 2013-05-14 20:54:03 <jgarzik> vast majority of my bitcoins come thanks to Yifu (Avalon CTO) and one miner
1757 2013-05-14 20:54:23 <Ry4an> that's something management instilled in society to make worker pay inequality easier during the industrial revolution.  handy thing.
1758 2013-05-14 20:54:57 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: I can beat you there
1759 2013-05-14 20:55:04 <BlueMatt> well, if you count me a core dev
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1763 2013-05-14 20:56:24 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, I do :)
1764 2013-05-14 20:56:52 <sipa> it would surprise me if you had less BTC than i do :)
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1767 2013-05-14 20:57:09 <jgarzik> Current BTC balance:  ~630
1768 2013-05-14 20:57:20 DaQatz has joined
1769 2013-05-14 20:57:21 <jgarzik> Total donations in past 2 years: ~26
1770 2013-05-14 20:57:26 duty2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1771 2013-05-14 20:57:31 <BlueMatt> Balance: 31.30259848 BTC
1772 2013-05-14 20:57:34 <ryan-c> Luke-Jr: You about?
1773 2013-05-14 20:57:40 <Luke-Jr> ?
1774 2013-05-14 20:58:04 <Guest35337> jgarzik: congrats!
1775 2013-05-14 20:58:11 Guest35337 is now known as petertodd
1776 2013-05-14 20:58:23 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: told you, anyway...I'm a student so having $3k lying around actually makes me kinda rich...
1777 2013-05-14 20:58:38 <ryan-c> Luke-Jr: does bfgminer scan serial devices that show up after it is started?
1778 2013-05-14 20:58:39 <petertodd> jgarzik: you can include me as a dev if you want to feel richer :)
1779 2013-05-14 20:58:43 <sipa> Current BTC balance: ~200
1780 2013-05-14 20:58:51 <Luke-Jr> ryan-c: not currently
1781 2013-05-14 20:59:01 <ryan-c> Luke-Jr: is there some rpc command that can tell it about a new device?
1782 2013-05-14 20:59:03 <sipa> Total donations in the past 2 years: ~35
1783 2013-05-14 20:59:09 <Luke-Jr> ryan-c: not currently
1784 2013-05-14 20:59:23 <Ry4an> heh, my font kept showing your ~s such that I was mistaking them for negative signs, and I wasn't encouraged that all the devs are so far in BTC debt. :)
1785 2013-05-14 20:59:47 <ryan-c> Luke-Jr: I'm working on udev rules under linux to handle mining devices: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/hardware-discussion/2432-high-availablity-asic-mining-2.html#post32840
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1787 2013-05-14 21:00:04 <ryan-c> I'd like to be able to have udev tell bfgminer about devices when they are plugged in.
1788 2013-05-14 21:00:18 <ryan-c> Sounds like currently bfgminer would need to be restarted.
1789 2013-05-14 21:00:57 <BlueMatt> Ry4an: there is a secret short selling market that only devs have access too...and are very active...
1790 2013-05-14 21:00:59 <Luke-Jr> ryan-c: it's a planned feature for 3.1 at this point
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1794 2013-05-14 21:02:01 <ryan-c> Luke-Jr: run time scan, 'new device' rpc command, or both?
1795 2013-05-14 21:02:49 <Ry4an> BlueMatt: "I'm gonna write me a new minivan this afternoon"
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1802 2013-05-14 21:04:55 <jgarzik> sipa, you win :)
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1807 2013-05-14 21:09:14 <BlueMatt> sipa, jgarzik I'm not sure you can complain that much about lack of donations if you dont really ask for them
1808 2013-05-14 21:09:23 <sipa> BlueMatt: i don't
1809 2013-05-14 21:09:24 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: might not as much, but sipa actively rejects them usually
1810 2013-05-14 21:09:40 <Luke-Jr> ryan-c: 'new device' rpc
1811 2013-05-14 21:09:56 <Luke-Jr> ryan-c: runtime scan would be nice, but I don't think any OS actually supports such events :/
1812 2013-05-14 21:10:14 <Luke-Jr> well, maybe I can do a scan-on-trigger, but there's no event for "user plugged in a new device"
1813 2013-05-14 21:10:20 <ryan-c> Luke-Jr: Linux does via udev, but it's a mess.
1814 2013-05-14 21:10:37 <Luke-Jr> ryan-c: yeah, maybe I can take SIGUSR1 for it or something ☺
1815 2013-05-14 21:10:53 <ryan-c> Luke-Jr: My plan is to write a shell script that is fired by udev when a device is plugged in which tells bfgminer about it.
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1817 2013-05-14 21:11:52 <ryan-c> It would be nice to have the option to restrict bfgminer to scan only devices matching some pattern. I wouldn't want autodetect spamming my other usb serial ports with probes
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1820 2013-05-14 21:12:23 <ryan-c> I have rule I wrote that will put butterfly labs ASICs as /dev/bflXXXXXXX for example.
1821 2013-05-14 21:12:38 <ryan-c> I'd want to scan only those
1822 2013-05-14 21:12:52 <ryan-c> though I think that probably only makes sense on linux anyway.
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1826 2013-05-14 21:16:34 <MC1984_> congrats jgarzik on your new position
1827 2013-05-14 21:17:05 <MC1984_> its about god damn time some of these companies made direct investment in the technical core of the system they building their empires on
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1830 2013-05-14 21:18:06 <MC1984_> jeff used to be a lunix kernel dev or something right?
1831 2013-05-14 21:18:21 <BlueMatt> yes, maintainer of libata
1832 2013-05-14 21:18:31 <TD> jgarzik: great news :)
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1835 2013-05-14 21:18:44 <MC1984_> great to have that sort of talent full time on bitcoin now
1836 2013-05-14 21:18:48 <TD> jgarzik: <troll> does this mean your view on block size limits now reflects that of bitpay? </troll> ;)
1837 2013-05-14 21:18:58 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
1838 2013-05-14 21:19:19 <nsh> my views reflect those of all your employers
1839 2013-05-14 21:19:24 * BlueMatt waits to see how jgarzik's opinions on issues changes after he starts work there...
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1842 2013-05-14 21:19:32 <nsh> but only in the vanishingly small number of cases where they are right about things
1843 2013-05-14 21:20:33 <TD> jgarzik: more seriously, what do you plan to work on with your new found time?
1844 2013-05-14 21:20:40 <petertodd> TD: what's not a troll is asking if his actions reflect the views of bitpay...
1845 2013-05-14 21:20:44 <sipa> <@jgarzik> I think 75% of block space should be reserved for transactions with an output to 1B1tp4y*
1846 2013-05-14 21:20:44 <Luke-Jr> ryan-c: BFGMiner's autodetect only scans known USB iProduct strings
1847 2013-05-14 21:20:53 <TD> haha
1848 2013-05-14 21:21:01 santoscork has quit (Quit: Quiet while I make like a cat)
1849 2013-05-14 21:21:05 <petertodd> TD: but I'll let him at least settle in first
1850 2013-05-14 21:21:27 <MC1984_> thats a good question actually
1851 2013-05-14 21:21:35 * jgm starts generating addresses starting with 1B1tp4y and make them available for sale
1852 2013-05-14 21:21:37 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: my experiences with BitPay have been reasonable
1853 2013-05-14 21:21:47 <MC1984_> depends on his contract, if they just pay him to "keep it running" or something more specific?
1854 2013-05-14 21:21:55 <ryan-c> Luke-Jr: oh, that's clever.
1855 2013-05-14 21:22:07 <ryan-c> Luke-Jr: what api are you using for that?
1856 2013-05-14 21:22:40 <Luke-Jr> ryan-c: libudev ;)
1857 2013-05-14 21:22:50 <MC1984_> saying that i doubt he would have signed a contract that completely made him bitpays sock puppet in coredev contrary to anyone elses desires or concerns
1858 2013-05-14 21:22:55 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: companies don't always die gracefully, and it's an unknown if FinCEN will feel like granting licenses for off-chain tx services; BitPay is public
1859 2013-05-14 21:23:09 <ryan-c> Luke-Jr: Ah. I was writing some code for that recently.
1860 2013-05-14 21:23:35 <ryan-c> jgm: Anyone who buys one is an idiot. :P
1861 2013-05-14 21:23:38 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: even if BitPay has trouble getting US licensing, they do enough outside-the-US business that I think they'd survive
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1863 2013-05-14 21:23:56 <ryan-c> unless you're doing vanitypool style generation, but you can't make those in advance.
1864 2013-05-14 21:24:06 <jgm> jgm: won't stop me selling it to them :)
1865 2013-05-14 21:24:15 <jgm> Oops, talking to myself again
1866 2013-05-14 21:24:17 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: maybe, of course, if they go the other way and offer off-chain services for the record BitPay are my shills
1867 2013-05-14 21:24:25 <jgarzik> TD, hah
1868 2013-05-14 21:25:03 <jgarzik> TD, I think it is fair to say that BitPay is closer to you, than me, on blocksize limit issues....   :)
1869 2013-05-14 21:25:16 whiterabbit has joined
1870 2013-05-14 21:25:51 <TD> yeah i had a chat with stephen a couple months ago about various things and we talked about that.
1871 2013-05-14 21:25:53 <dugo> Ob-dev .. almost midnight here, can I turn gen on in my 0.8 bitcoind in a bit?
1872 2013-05-14 21:26:02 <jgarzik> TD, RE what to do...  BitPay is essentially funding upstream work, very similar to my Linux kernel work
1873 2013-05-14 21:26:04 <TD> but i suppose there are many tasks you can work on. unless stephen is going to be a taskmaster
1874 2013-05-14 21:26:07 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1875 2013-05-14 21:26:09 <jgarzik> i.e. they pay me, and I contribute upstream
1876 2013-05-14 21:26:11 whiterabbit is now known as wrabbit
1877 2013-05-14 21:26:16 <TD> yes
1878 2013-05-14 21:26:30 <dugo> thx
1879 2013-05-14 21:26:47 <jgarzik> TD, Yes there is plenty of work.  Also, using standard Linux terminology, I can make it clear what position is being advocated.  On Linux kernel mailing lists, one writes
1880 2013-05-14 21:26:53 <jgarzik> <vendor hat: on>  ...
1881 2013-05-14 21:26:56 <jgarzik> etc.
1882 2013-05-14 21:27:04 <TD> yeah i'm just curious what your priorities are now
1883 2013-05-14 21:27:14 <TD> like, testing, scaling, features, better apis, etc
1884 2013-05-14 21:27:17 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: yes, but that leaves open the question of what you plan to do upstream, now that you have more time :P
1885 2013-05-14 21:27:18 <MC1984_> vendor hat tag
1886 2013-05-14 21:27:25 <MC1984_> how wonderfully pragmatic
1887 2013-05-14 21:27:35 * BlueMatt jumps up and down and screams testing
1888 2013-05-14 21:27:35 <jgarzik> TD, bitcoind, and nose.js-like SPV client stuff (clone pynode/picocoin in node.js)
1889 2013-05-14 21:27:42 <MC1984_> this is why i like watching OSS dev
1890 2013-05-14 21:27:45 <jgarzik> resources for testing, most definitely
1891 2013-05-14 21:27:51 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: dont we already have bitcoinjs?
1892 2013-05-14 21:27:53 sud3n has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1893 2013-05-14 21:28:24 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, yeah a lot of the basic work is already done.  Needs cleaning and lib-ifying, unit tests, all the polish of a lib
1894 2013-05-14 21:28:37 <nsh> what does this do: asm("int $0x4");
1895 2013-05-14 21:28:41 <TD> hmm. i guess we can talk about it at the conference more effectively, but i'd advocate you find a way to re-use bitcoinj rather than do a custom SPV implementation in another language
1896 2013-05-14 21:28:54 <TD> but i know bitpay is mostly a node.js shop
1897 2013-05-14 21:29:02 <nsh> turns on some interrupts, i guess
1898 2013-05-14 21:29:25 <TD> nsh: triggers interrupt 4
1899 2013-05-14 21:29:27 <jgarzik> TD, hah, already done most of an SPV in C anyway ;p
1900 2013-05-14 21:29:32 <nsh> TD, ty
1901 2013-05-14 21:29:38 <jgarzik> TD, yeah, a mostly node.js shop
1902 2013-05-14 21:29:51 <Jezzz> meh, 50m block
1903 2013-05-14 21:29:55 Jasmin68k has joined
1904 2013-05-14 21:29:56 <sipa> jgarzik: you're familiar with js/node?
1905 2013-05-14 21:30:07 <TD> jgarzik: yeah i guess you don't need bloom filtering or the other stuff.
1906 2013-05-14 21:30:35 * Luke-Jr notes stuff like BitPay really shouldn't be using SPV mode <.<
1907 2013-05-14 21:30:39 whiterabbit has joined
1908 2013-05-14 21:31:00 <MC1984_> do they? thats crazy
1909 2013-05-14 21:31:07 <TD> nsh: int 4 is an overflow exception
1910 2013-05-14 21:31:09 <jgarzik> TD, well, I like to think there is value in having a fully functional bitcoin lib in C, node.js, java, python, ...
1911 2013-05-14 21:31:12 <TD> Luke-Jr: it's fine if it's connected to a bitcoind
1912 2013-05-14 21:31:13 <jgarzik> I'm language agnostic
1913 2013-05-14 21:31:22 <jgarzik> I don't think Java needs to be the -only- SPV or lib
1914 2013-05-14 21:31:31 n5 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1915 2013-05-14 21:31:35 <nsh> TD, right, just trying to understand the 'new' (backported lol) linux exploit
1916 2013-05-14 21:31:40 n5 has joined
1917 2013-05-14 21:31:46 <TD> jgarzik: no, sure, it's just a question of scarce priorities. ideally there'd be a full implementation of everything in every language but we aren't close to having enough people to do that well
1918 2013-05-14 21:31:49 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1919 2013-05-14 21:31:54 aiesl has joined
1920 2013-05-14 21:31:56 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1921 2013-05-14 21:32:17 <TD> i'm not wedded to java at all, indeed i often think i should have made bitcoinj a bunch of JNI bindings to upgraded bitcoind code. alas, it's too late to go back now.
1922 2013-05-14 21:32:47 <jgarzik> I plan on continuing to build out the python and C libs.  Just adding node.js to the stack.
1923 2013-05-14 21:32:53 <jgarzik> sipa, justmoon's stuff?
1924 2013-05-14 21:32:56 chax has joined
1925 2013-05-14 21:33:04 <sipa> jgarzik: no, i mean the language
1926 2013-05-14 21:33:20 wrabbit has joined
1927 2013-05-14 21:33:28 <jgarzik> sipa, nope, a JS n00b here really.  They like Google's JS VM, I can tell you.
1928 2013-05-14 21:33:40 ltcbtc has joined
1929 2013-05-14 21:33:43 <TD> it's the fastest. but it's still a weird environment to use for server side code, imo
1930 2013-05-14 21:33:45 <jgarzik> having written compilers before, though, it is not difficult to pick up a new language
1931 2013-05-14 21:33:46 <sipa> i'm sure you're capable enough to learn any new language necessary, just wondering whether you actually had experience with it
1932 2013-05-14 21:33:47 <TD> same limitations of regular javascript
1933 2013-05-14 21:33:51 <TD> no threading, in particular
1934 2013-05-14 21:33:58 <jgarzik> TD, yeah, bleh :)
1935 2013-05-14 21:34:20 <jgarzik> TD, and when you push a language too hard on the avoiding-threads front, you get really weird async I/O models
1936 2013-05-14 21:34:21 <TD> if you aren't already using it, check out the Closure compiler. it's a javascript->javascript compiler
1937 2013-05-14 21:34:36 <TD> that can do type checking, lots of advanced optimizations, etc
1938 2013-05-14 21:34:44 <TD> good for finding bugs and making code run faster.
1939 2013-05-14 21:34:54 <TD> jgarzik: node.js IS a really weird async IO model, pretty much :)
1940 2013-05-14 21:35:09 whiterabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1941 2013-05-14 21:35:10 <nsh> there's nothing wrong with this in principle.
1942 2013-05-14 21:35:25 <nsh> sometimes elegance is just the right variety of weirdness
1943 2013-05-14 21:35:27 <sipa> hmm, the may15 limitation will expire in 33?
1944 2013-05-14 21:35:29 <sipa> eh, 3h
1945 2013-05-14 21:35:43 <TD> when gavin is on a plane and you guys will likely be in bed. superb :)
1946 2013-05-14 21:36:01 <Luke-Jr> when is that?
1947 2013-05-14 21:36:11 <sipa> 2h48m from now
1948 2013-05-14 21:36:13 <gmaxwell> I'll be up for it.
1949 2013-05-14 21:36:15 <gmaxwell> of course.
1950 2013-05-14 21:36:18 <BlueMatt> heh, everyone will wake up to fireworks and explosions
1951 2013-05-14 21:36:22 <BlueMatt> awww
1952 2013-05-14 21:36:25 <Luke-Jr> 3h from now, I think most will be up <.<
1953 2013-05-14 21:36:32 * BlueMatt -> bed, sorry
1954 2013-05-14 21:36:39 <sipa> TD: well, if anything goes really wrong, we might want to hire some private security ... perhaps the conference audience will be waiting with pitchforks
1955 2013-05-14 21:36:48 <TD> right
1956 2013-05-14 21:36:49 Mr_G has joined
1957 2013-05-14 21:37:10 <TD> Luke-Jr: what's the url of your graphs of versions again?
1958 2013-05-14 21:37:12 resinate has quit (Quit: resinate)
1959 2013-05-14 21:37:13 <nsh> when does conference begin?
1960 2013-05-14 21:37:20 <nsh> are talks going to be streamed?
1961 2013-05-14 21:37:21 <sipa> friday evening
1962 2013-05-14 21:37:27 <Luke-Jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/branches.html
1963 2013-05-14 21:37:37 chax has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1964 2013-05-14 21:37:51 <TD> 91%, good. hopefully none of the remaining 10% are pools .....
1965 2013-05-14 21:38:06 <nsh> Luke-Jr, how was the census taken?
1966 2013-05-14 21:38:10 <BlueMatt> if talks arent uploaded on youtube (at least the technical ones), I'll be waiting with a pitchfork next time I see any devs
1967 2013-05-14 21:38:12 <Luke-Jr> TD: http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/security.html might be better, as it considers stable versions
1968 2013-05-14 21:38:13 <TD> nsh: they will be videos, not sure about streamed
1969 2013-05-14 21:38:19 grau has joined
1970 2013-05-14 21:38:20 <nsh> TD, works for me
1971 2013-05-14 21:38:24 <sipa> BlueMatt: eh...
1972 2013-05-14 21:39:14 <Luke-Jr> hmm, was 0.8.2 released?
1973 2013-05-14 21:39:25 aiesl has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1974 2013-05-14 21:39:33 <Luke-Jr> guess I should update security to mark 0.8.0 as secure now
1975 2013-05-14 21:39:35 <warren> 0.8.2rc1
1976 2013-05-14 21:40:09 n5 has quit (Ping timeout: 247 seconds)
1977 2013-05-14 21:40:32 richcollins has joined
1978 2013-05-14 21:41:02 <TD> jgarzik: what bitcoind stuff do you plan on doing?
1979 2013-05-14 21:41:13 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1980 2013-05-14 21:42:40 ido has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1981 2013-05-14 21:42:50 <jgarzik> sipa, AFAIK major pools like btcguild and slush have soft limits as well as, ie. manual stoppers that must be uncorked, before big blocks truly appear
1982 2013-05-14 21:43:11 <jgarzik> so it could take a while for a breaking block to appear
1983 2013-05-14 21:43:16 <sipa> jgarzik: the default settings are limited anyway
1984 2013-05-14 21:43:19 <TD> well there is a soft block size limit in bitcoind, i think they just use that
1985 2013-05-14 21:43:20 <jgarzik> (absent forcing the issue with a manual ping)
1986 2013-05-14 21:43:35 <sipa> you need a max block size above 900 kb or so to have a reasonable chance of triggering the forking condition
1987 2013-05-14 21:43:47 <sipa> which needs an explicit setting
1988 2013-05-14 21:44:08 <jgarzik> sipa, TD: agreed, though what I meant was  those pool ops also set a config setting, rather than just blindly relying on defaults.  Thus, manual intervention requires behavior change.
1989 2013-05-14 21:44:19 <jgarzik> er
1990 2013-05-14 21:44:31 <jgarzik> behavior change requires manual intervention, not just the may15 code trigger
1991 2013-05-14 21:44:53 <jgarzik> TD, bitpay is definitely interested in gavin's payment work
1992 2013-05-14 21:44:55 <TD> right
1993 2013-05-14 21:45:03 <jgarzik> and of course, bitpay needs the core network running smoothly
1994 2013-05-14 21:45:12 <jgarzik> (thus bitcoind needs to be running smoothly)
1995 2013-05-14 21:45:23 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1996 2013-05-14 21:45:27 ido has joined
1997 2013-05-14 21:45:38 <jgarzik> would like to get them on board with my year-old proposed backbone project, but no idea if they are interested yet
1998 2013-05-14 21:45:54 <nsh> jgarzik, proposed where?
1999 2013-05-14 21:46:36 <jgarzik> nsh, on here, mostly :)
2000 2013-05-14 21:46:38 <TD> i guess adding features to the payment protocol or offloading some work from gavin would indeed be useful
2001 2013-05-14 21:46:41 <nsh> so i see from google
2002 2013-05-14 21:46:53 <TD> means doing GUI work though ;)
2003 2013-05-14 21:47:03 <jgarzik> TD, hehe, alas
2004 2013-05-14 21:47:20 <TD> you might find you love it, after spending so many years in the command line :-)
2005 2013-05-14 21:47:28 <TD> drop a picture here, an animated button there ....
2006 2013-05-14 21:47:33 <sipa> i think jgarzik hasn't ever even built bitcoin-qt
2007 2013-05-14 21:47:34 <jgarzik> TD, *puke*
2008 2013-05-14 21:47:35 * jgarzik runs
2009 2013-05-14 21:47:41 <jgarzik> nope, never built qt
2010 2013-05-14 21:47:44 ltcbtc has quit (Quit: latez)
2011 2013-05-14 21:47:51 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
2012 2013-05-14 21:47:54 <TD> oh well …… guess that won't be happening then.
2013 2013-05-14 21:47:58 <sipa> i usually do to see whether my code changes don't break some GUI code :p
2014 2013-05-14 21:48:10 <nsh> jgarzik, your idea was to have specialised backbone nodes on custom hardware?
2015 2013-05-14 21:48:26 <nsh> using some kind of business logic kernel
2016 2013-05-14 21:48:41 <jgarzik> only seen it running a few times, too.  Last time I saw the QT GUI live was a couple days ago, on a friend's computer, installing bitcoin there.  Before that... sipa's computer at the London conference :)
2017 2013-05-14 21:48:43 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: yes, yes, yes (re: backbone)
2018 2013-05-14 21:48:44 <Luke-Jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/security.html updated to reflect May15 rule change
2019 2013-05-14 21:48:51 <TD> what's the backbone?
2020 2013-05-14 21:48:58 avarab is now known as avar
2021 2013-05-14 21:49:12 <jgarzik> TD, nsh: no custom hardware, just making sure to interconnect all the major players in bitcoin-land
2022 2013-05-14 21:49:14 <TD> jgarzik: maybe you can upgrade the addr broadcasts to include pruning data
2023 2013-05-14 21:49:18 <Luke-Jr>       1 60002 "/bitcoin-ruby:0.0.1/" unknown <-- hmm, interesting
2024 2013-05-14 21:49:22 <nsh> mmm, ok
2025 2013-05-14 21:49:27 <jgarzik> rather than random connections as now, or their alternative, "connect to everyone on the network"
2026 2013-05-14 21:49:41 <BlueMatt> TD: essentially, reliable nodes that interconnect large pools/merchants
2027 2013-05-14 21:49:47 <jgarzik> think peering model, a la low level internet connections
2028 2013-05-14 21:49:47 <TD> Luke-Jr: afaik coinlab uses that
2029 2013-05-14 21:49:56 <TD> right
2030 2013-05-14 21:50:19 <TD> you could run a vetted DNS seed. but it's a fair amount of manual work. better load balancing code might end up at the same outcome without curation
2031 2013-05-14 21:50:20 ardeay_ has quit (Quit: Laters)
2032 2013-05-14 21:50:27 <nsh> makes sense, therefore it's probably evil hierarchy creep that will undermine the entire point of wikipedia^Wbitcoin as an extended experiment in practical anarchy
2033 2013-05-14 21:50:45 <jgarzik> There are plenty of zero-cost, zero-payment peering agreements between Internet players, for TCP/IP interconnection.  No reason a bitcoin backbone cannot be similar.
2034 2013-05-14 21:51:19 ikea_meatballs has joined
2035 2013-05-14 21:52:06 <TD> sure, it makes sense, but i mean, can you achieve it by recording uptime of nodes in the addrman and stuff like that
2036 2013-05-14 21:52:11 * BlueMatt would kinda like to see a new protocol used to broadcast stuff there, too, just so that a) no one complains about lack of decentralization and b) dont rely on one protocol to rule the world
2037 2013-05-14 21:52:52 <sipa> making a new protocol isn't that hard, really
2038 2013-05-14 21:52:52 * BlueMatt -> actually off now
2039 2013-05-14 21:53:05 * sipa whistles the protobuf song
2040 2013-05-14 21:53:23 <jgarzik> ;p
2041 2013-05-14 21:53:38 larsig has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2042 2013-05-14 21:53:49 highPriestLOL is now known as zz_highPriestLOL
2043 2013-05-14 21:54:01 grau has joined
2044 2013-05-14 21:54:21 <TD> the difficult thing is not finding ideas of stuff to do
2045 2013-05-14 21:54:26 <TD> it is to select the most important things wisely
2046 2013-05-14 21:55:08 Jasmin68k has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2047 2013-05-14 21:55:12 <jgarzik> indeed
2048 2013-05-14 21:55:17 <TD> for instance, a backbone would be inherently cool, but does it address the most pressing business issue for bit pay? i'm not convinced.
2049 2013-05-14 21:55:36 <TD> it might do. i'm not sure.
2050 2013-05-14 21:56:20 <TD> iirc from talking to stephen the main issues they see are unpredictable confirmation times and other fee related issues.
2051 2013-05-14 21:56:34 <jgarzik> -the- most pressing issue?  Probably not.
2052 2013-05-14 21:57:15 <jgarzik> But I think a backbone is important for bitcoin as a whole, being IMO superior to random untrusted links
2053 2013-05-14 21:57:41 <jgarzik> ensure wide, rapid TX and block propagation
2054 2013-05-14 21:58:38 <TD> yes, probably. what would really rock is network analytics
2055 2013-05-14 21:58:58 caput has joined
2056 2013-05-14 21:59:11 <jgarzik> agree
2057 2013-05-14 21:59:17 <jgarzik> though IMO that needs a lot of sample points
2058 2013-05-14 21:59:30 * jgarzik has been dying to get some decent metrics on bitcoin
2059 2013-05-14 21:59:43 cjsw3 has joined
2060 2013-05-14 21:59:55 <jgarzik> TX propagation time, TX confirmation time at various fee levels, block propagation time, byte-count traffic levels, many others...
2061 2013-05-14 22:00:05 <jgarzik> even reserved "coinstat.com" a while ago, for that
2062 2013-05-14 22:00:50 <TD> the sort of graphs Luke-Jr plots and the data from blockchain.info is good, but we badly need those sorts of realtime statistics
2063 2013-05-14 22:00:56 <gmaxwell> things like backbones with authenticated links are useful because they make some kinds of goofball attacks irrelevant, and they fit into a model of 'where you can't make all attacks impossible, do a bunch of things so that no single attack is effective'
2064 2013-05-14 22:01:19 <TD> right now if transaction confirmation time starts going up the first we know of it is user complaints
2065 2013-05-14 22:01:24 <TD> which is ……. not excellent
2066 2013-05-14 22:02:04 <gmaxwell> TD: that isn't completely true, and if you look at the logs here you'll see that we've been noticing large outstanding queues before user complaints, often by hours.
2067 2013-05-14 22:02:07 <nsh> gmaxwell, also called the "increase your bug attack surface" approach
2068 2013-05-14 22:02:20 Diapolis has joined
2069 2013-05-14 22:02:23 <TD> ok, fair point
2070 2013-05-14 22:02:32 <gmaxwell> nsh: not really, where is the bug surface increase in using the tools you already have available.
2071 2013-05-14 22:02:43 <TD> but having real monitoring with graphs and alerts would be even better. nagios type solutions can provide this
2072 2013-05-14 22:02:57 <nsh> mmm, perhaps
2073 2013-05-14 22:03:30 <TD> nsh: yeah authd links don
2074 2013-05-14 22:03:33 <TD> urgh
2075 2013-05-14 22:03:40 <TD> don't really add attack surface, it's so simple to do
2076 2013-05-14 22:03:50 <TD> that said, i doubt miners/merchants have (m)any MITMs between them
2077 2013-05-14 22:04:08 * nsh concedes to better experience
2078 2013-05-14 22:04:10 <TD> it's not like for end users where basically any crappy internet connection might end up in use
2079 2013-05-14 22:04:14 <gmaxwell> lol
2080 2013-05-14 22:04:26 <TD> s/miners/mining pools/
2081 2013-05-14 22:04:55 <gmaxwell> yea, no, all miners have totally reliable and trustworthy network facilities,  we can tell because the largest pools don't get hacked and robbed monthy through backdoors in their hosting providers.
2082 2013-05-14 22:05:00 <gmaxwell> :P
2083 2013-05-14 22:05:50 <nsh> +1
2084 2013-05-14 22:06:35 <jgarzik> hehehe
2085 2013-05-14 22:06:46 JZavala has joined
2086 2013-05-14 22:06:47 RedEmerald has joined
2087 2013-05-14 22:07:00 <SteveDekorte> anyone doing btc honeypot services for intrusion detection yet?
2088 2013-05-14 22:07:03 <TD> my point exactly - why MITM the internet connection when you can be the man at the end? :)
2089 2013-05-14 22:07:14 PhantomSpark has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2090 2013-05-14 22:07:29 <jgarzik> I would also like to get players into a backbone, before miners start picking up on the petertodd writings and tricks (e.g. RE how miners might have an incentive to ignore blocks)
2091 2013-05-14 22:07:36 XertroV1 has joined
2092 2013-05-14 22:07:45 <TD> players?
2093 2013-05-14 22:07:46 Guest4536 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2094 2013-05-14 22:07:56 OneFixt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2095 2013-05-14 22:07:58 <nsh> you know, pimps
2096 2013-05-14 22:08:06 <jgarzik> "big players" -- mining pools, payment processors, big [for bitcoin] web sites
2097 2013-05-14 22:08:11 OneFixt has joined
2098 2013-05-14 22:08:19 <TD> right
2099 2013-05-14 22:08:19 * Luke-Jr grumbles about nodes that lie about their user agent
2100 2013-05-14 22:08:25 <nsh> otherwise called "oligarchs" in the traditional parlance
2101 2013-05-14 22:08:33 <nsh> ;)
2102 2013-05-14 22:08:41 Guest4536 has joined
2103 2013-05-14 22:08:55 <nsh> Luke-Jr, it's not possible to lie about your user-agent. it's whatever you say it is.
2104 2013-05-14 22:09:17 <nsh> i don't recall the RFC stating that it should have any relation to codebase employed
2105 2013-05-14 22:09:31 <Luke-Jr> nsh: you missed BIP 14 then
2106 2013-05-14 22:09:49 <nsh> oh, i barely know what we're talking about. but thanks, i'll read it :)
2107 2013-05-14 22:09:56 <TD> jgarzik: profiling block acceptance and propagation would be useful. matt had some work done on using the bloom filtering code to only relay hashes instead of full transactions
2108 2013-05-14 22:10:05 bibbybob has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2109 2013-05-14 22:10:07 <TD> jgarzik: i suspect that is a bigger issue at present than randomly slow nodes.
2110 2013-05-14 22:10:36 Diapolis has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2111 2013-05-14 22:11:35 RedEmerald has quit (Changing host)
2112 2013-05-14 22:11:35 RedEmerald has joined
2113 2013-05-14 22:11:36 * Luke-Jr wonders if there'd be any objection to inserting a static node in his DNS seed solely to improve the charts to more than mere listening nodes
2114 2013-05-14 22:12:01 resinate has joined
2115 2013-05-14 22:12:19 <TD> sipa: was FindBlockByHeight actually showing up in profiles or is this just a cleanup?
2116 2013-05-14 22:12:39 <sipa> TD: the reason for writing it had nothing to do with performance actually
2117 2013-05-14 22:12:43 xire has joined
2118 2013-05-14 22:12:43 xire has quit (Changing host)
2119 2013-05-14 22:12:43 xire has joined
2120 2013-05-14 22:12:47 <TD> ok
2121 2013-05-14 22:13:05 <sipa> TD: it's a change i want to be able to implement headers-first syncing
2122 2013-05-14 22:13:26 <TD> i see
2123 2013-05-14 22:13:35 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2124 2013-05-14 22:13:46 <sipa> but after implementing it, i noticed it was called from resendwallettransactions, and iirc phantomcircuit was complaining about that function taking awfully slow on his huge wallets, and i couldn't explian why
2125 2013-05-14 22:13:50 <sipa> *explain
2126 2013-05-14 22:14:00 <sipa> ").fixGrammar();
2127 2013-05-14 22:14:31 <TD> yeah. another good idea for jgarzik to work on
2128 2013-05-14 22:14:55 <TD> wallet scalability ….. i presume bitpay have long since solved this, but "if you want to accept lots of transactions use bit pay" is not a beneficial position even for tony :-)
2129 2013-05-14 22:17:13 <gmaxwell> OT, this may be of mild interest: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=205396.0
2130 2013-05-14 22:17:23 <jgarzik> heh
2131 2013-05-14 22:18:36 <jgarzik> TD, agree that wallet scalability would be nice
2132 2013-05-14 22:18:48 <jgarzik> but I really wonder if that won't require a complete rethink of bitcoind
2133 2013-05-14 22:19:06 <jgarzik> key management is not its strong suit, especially for (a) lots of keys or (b) high value keys
2134 2013-05-14 22:19:25 <sipa> many transactions is a larger problem than many keys
2135 2013-05-14 22:19:47 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: There was a big sell-off earlier at the news of that. Also http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1ebzru/dwolla_no_longer_allowed_to_do_business_with_mtgox/
2136 2013-05-14 22:19:49 <sipa> as there are virtually no operations iterating over all keys, but ridiculously many over all transactions
2137 2013-05-14 22:19:57 <jgarzik> bloomers help, even internally, for lotsa-keys scenarios
2138 2013-05-14 22:19:57 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2139 2013-05-14 22:20:15 <jgarzik> sipa, true
2140 2013-05-14 22:20:15 <sipa> yes
2141 2013-05-14 22:20:49 <jgarzik> midnightmagic, it's not a big sell-off, if it fails to break $100 ;p
2142 2013-05-14 22:20:57 <sipa> it's ironic, but it may actually be the case that syncing an SPV wallet with a huge amount of keys could be faster in theory than syncing a wallet with the same keys on the node the SPV client is fetching from
2143 2013-05-14 22:21:12 <gmaxwell> if you want a fun torture test, just break IsMine and rescan the blockchain so alll the transactions are yours.
2144 2013-05-14 22:21:17 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: Well. "big". :)
2145 2013-05-14 22:24:07 resinate has quit (Quit: resinate)
2146 2013-05-14 22:24:46 <jgarzik> not so much w/ bitpay, but high value secure storage a la Armory is a trending request
2147 2013-05-14 22:25:21 darsie has joined
2148 2013-05-14 22:25:23 <darsie> hi
2149 2013-05-14 22:25:26 <darsie> What's a safe way to shut down bitcoin-qt if I can't restore the window after I closed it? sigterm?
2150 2013-05-14 22:25:46 <sipa> darsie: yes, that's safe
2151 2013-05-14 22:25:50 <darsie> thx
2152 2013-05-14 22:25:52 <sipa> (though it may not work)
2153 2013-05-14 22:26:26 <darsie> worked
2154 2013-05-14 22:30:47 XertroV1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2155 2013-05-14 22:31:04 linq has joined
2156 2013-05-14 22:31:11 CustomWebAppsCo1 has joined
2157 2013-05-14 22:31:53 <warren> sipa: hi.  Is there any way to time -reindex without modifying bitcoind?
2158 2013-05-14 22:32:05 <sipa> warren: how do you mean time?
2159 2013-05-14 22:32:10 <sipa> i use -logtimestamps
2160 2013-05-14 22:32:12 <gmaxwell> turn on log timestamps and look at the logs?
2161 2013-05-14 22:32:13 <sipa> and -benchmark
2162 2013-05-14 22:32:18 <warren> ah, thanks
2163 2013-05-14 22:33:34 <jgarzik> I love the Internet.  "I love bitpay, but this is a really bad thing. Now bitpay has control over how bitcoin will work. I'm not sure if anyone noticed, but what ever the devs put in the code, is whats in everyones bitcoin. It will now be what bitpay wants to see changed, not what the users want,..."
2164 2013-05-14 22:33:45 <dugo> turned gen=1 on at 17818463
2165 2013-05-14 22:34:20 <sipa> darsie: whyyyyy?
2166 2013-05-14 22:34:20 <warren> jgarzik: thank goodness for lolbertarians
2167 2013-05-14 22:34:53 <darsie> sipa: Cause since I upgraded to wheezy I got gnome3 without dock.
2168 2013-05-14 22:35:01 <linq> It was said by Winston Churchill that the best argument against democracy is a conversation with the average voter...
2169 2013-05-14 22:35:12 <linq> a 5-minute conversation*
2170 2013-05-14 22:35:23 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: lol
2171 2013-05-14 22:35:25 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: wtf do they think they're talking about? oh does one of us work for bitpay now?
2172 2013-05-14 22:35:41 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: jgarzik does
2173 2013-05-14 22:36:06 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: ah, so thats the new digs. Congrats (again) on your new adventure.
2174 2013-05-14 22:36:14 <TD> gmaxwell: oh dear
2175 2013-05-14 22:36:20 XertroV has joined
2176 2013-05-14 22:36:31 <TD> gmaxwell: i've been worried about a shutdown of bitcoin in the USA for some time
2177 2013-05-14 22:36:34 <TD> i hope this isn't the start of it
2178 2013-05-14 22:36:59 * Luke-Jr ponders whether to do a bank withdrawl from mtgox as a test for how widespread it is
2179 2013-05-14 22:37:13 XertroV has quit (Client Quit)
2180 2013-05-14 22:37:21 <TD> there were reports of BoA blocking mt gox transfers some days ago
2181 2013-05-14 22:37:25 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Tony seems like a sold and intelligent guy.
2182 2013-05-14 22:38:03 <warren> TD: huh?  how did you do mtgox BoA transfers before?  I always had to go through dwolla first.
2183 2013-05-14 22:38:32 <gmaxwell> warren: you can always wire directly.... using dwolla for a large transaction would be kinda odd.
2184 2013-05-14 22:38:32 <TD> i never did, i am not from the us. there were some comments to that effect somewhere else. why did you have to go via dwolla? boa should be able to do international wires
2185 2013-05-14 22:38:58 <warren> dwolla's fee is only 25 cents.  It's slower but cheaper.
2186 2013-05-14 22:39:07 ikbenwouter has joined
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2188 2013-05-14 22:39:32 <gmaxwell> warren: and limited to 5k/mo IIRC
2189 2013-05-14 22:39:41 <warren> banks block international wires to mtgox but not nigerian princes? =)
2190 2013-05-14 22:40:05 <JDuke128> hello , i m using bitcoinj api , i ve migrated from spy to H2FullPrunedBlockStore , but when peerGroup.downloadBlockChain(); called , system hangs there
2191 2013-05-14 22:40:25 <gmaxwell> I have a mtgox international wire in right now, as we speak, so we'll see if it goes through.
2192 2013-05-14 22:40:29 <JDuke128> it was working fine on SPVBlockChain
2193 2013-05-14 22:40:35 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: to or from?
2194 2013-05-14 22:40:39 <phantomcircuit> TD, it's fairly easy to fix the wallet scalability issue
2195 2013-05-14 22:40:48 daybyter has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2196 2013-05-14 22:40:56 <phantomcircuit> not in bitcoind itself
2197 2013-05-14 22:40:56 <TD> JDuke128: that method blocks. it will take forever to sync a full chain. it's probably not "hanging", just being slow
2198 2013-05-14 22:41:00 <phantomcircuit> but in payment systems outside
2199 2013-05-14 22:41:16 tcatm has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2202 2013-05-14 22:41:36 <JDuke128> so i will call peerGroup.downloadBlockChain on separate thread better ?
2203 2013-05-14 22:42:01 <TD> that won't change the fact that it takes a long time to download the block chain
2204 2013-05-14 22:42:15 <Luke-Jr> does the HD wallet spec already have a reasonably-compact address that pays to a unique key every time?
2205 2013-05-14 22:42:17 denisx has joined
2206 2013-05-14 22:43:01 <sipa> no
2207 2013-05-14 22:43:16 <Luke-Jr> :<
2208 2013-05-14 22:43:27 <JDuke128> whats block chain and block store ? they store other people's money hashes ?
2209 2013-05-14 22:43:29 <gmaxwell> It needs one. I expected Luke-Jr to craft it. :P
2210 2013-05-14 22:43:46 <gmaxwell> Since payments from luke's pool are an obvious user of extended public keys.
2211 2013-05-14 22:43:51 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I'm not sure I'm qualified for that
2212 2013-05-14 22:43:55 <sipa> well, you could use a BIP32 extended pubkey as a payment address, i guess
2213 2013-05-14 22:44:03 <sipa> but they're quite long
2214 2013-05-14 22:44:14 <TD> JDuke128: you need to read the documentation and satoshis white paper before going any further.
2215 2013-05-14 22:44:14 <JDuke128> they store public key of people's money hash ?
2216 2013-05-14 22:44:39 <JDuke128> TD , where ?
2217 2013-05-14 22:44:52 <sipa> http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
2218 2013-05-14 22:45:22 <sipa> "money hash" makes no sense, and a public key thereof certainly not
2219 2013-05-14 22:45:31 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: how compact is reasonably-compact?
2220 2013-05-14 22:45:43 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: dunno :p
2221 2013-05-14 22:45:52 <Luke-Jr> something that won't discourage people from using it?
2222 2013-05-14 22:46:01 redeeman has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2223 2013-05-14 22:46:41 <Luke-Jr> I think P2SH and HD addresses are irreconcilable :x
2224 2013-05-14 22:47:07 <sipa> BIP32 extended public keys aren't intended as addresses
2225 2013-05-14 22:47:27 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: hm? not so— you can have a rather long hd template that builds p2sh addresses.
2226 2013-05-14 22:47:29 <sipa> and i don't think they should
2227 2013-05-14 22:47:52 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: wouldn't that have the same problem as script-encoded-as-an-address?
2228 2013-05-14 22:48:06 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yep.
2229 2013-05-14 22:48:08 keystroke has joined
2230 2013-05-14 22:48:16 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that is, someone could manipulate them subtley and have them look nearly identical
2231 2013-05-14 22:48:36 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: if you'd like you can solve that particular one by using a strong permutation in the encoding.
2232 2013-05-14 22:49:16 <Luke-Jr> hmm, replace Base58Check doesn't sound like a bad idea XD
2233 2013-05-14 22:49:20 <gmaxwell> But you may still get crap like people beliving that they can take your script apart and modify it on you and expect you to still recieve the funds.
2234 2013-05-14 22:49:31 redeeman has joined
2235 2013-05-14 22:49:41 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: well, that's ridiculous
2236 2013-05-14 22:51:02 * dugo likes the idea setting up peering w/ bitcoind manually instead of the chatty protocol
2237 2013-05-14 22:51:39 <dugo> back to the USENET/UUCP days
2238 2013-05-14 22:52:22 <TD> why does testnet have a checkpoint?
2239 2013-05-14 22:52:47 <gmaxwell> TD: to test the checkpoints, also to keep someone from reorging out all the pretty tests when testnet was launched.
2240 2013-05-14 22:52:52 mappum has joined
2241 2013-05-14 22:54:29 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: so goal would be 1) BIP for Base58Check replacement, 2) BIP defining an address format for HD+P2SH+preimage
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2256 2013-05-14 23:09:48 LorenzoMoney has left ("Ciao!")
2257 2013-05-14 23:10:05 <keystroke> so 1 hour 14 minutes until the hard fork?
2258 2013-05-14 23:10:27 <TD> maybe. it depends who makes a block large enough after that
2259 2013-05-14 23:10:49 <Luke-Jr> sipa: to create child keys, you only need the 257-bit parent key data, right?
2260 2013-05-14 23:11:41 <keystroke> TD: oh ok, that removes the 500kb limit so it will take a 500kb+ block to do a fork?
2261 2013-05-14 23:11:50 <TD> it's to do with number of transactions affected
2262 2013-05-14 23:11:56 <TD> not exactly size, though they are of course related
2263 2013-05-14 23:12:18 <keystroke> oh that's right... ok thanks :) well after an hour from now at least it is possible finally so that is a good thing for network growth
2264 2013-05-14 23:14:01 asciilifeform has left ("Leaving")
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2267 2013-05-14 23:15:53 <sipa> Luke-Jr: no
2268 2013-05-14 23:16:19 <sipa> Luke-Jr: you need the parent public key, the chain code, and the child index
2269 2013-05-14 23:16:45 <Eleuthria> Just checking, the 0.8 fork.  Does that begin at midnight UTC?
2270 2013-05-14 23:16:53 <sipa> Eleuthria: yes
2271 2013-05-14 23:16:56 <Eleuthria> Thought so
2272 2013-05-14 23:17:04 <sipa> and technically it's a 0.8.1 fork
2273 2013-05-14 23:17:11 k9quaint has joined
2274 2013-05-14 23:17:25 <sipa> well, nvm
2275 2013-05-14 23:17:27 <Eleuthria> :P
2276 2013-05-14 23:17:38 <Eleuthria> 0.8 fork, 0.8.1 was the one that tried to prevent it from happening early
2277 2013-05-14 23:18:13 <sipa> anyway, 66 minutes left
2278 2013-05-14 23:18:17 <sipa> 65
2279 2013-05-14 23:18:31 <Eleuthria> Yeah, figured I'd make sure I'm in bitcoin-dev as it happened
2280 2013-05-14 23:18:41 <gmaxwell> well likely nothing happens.
2281 2013-05-14 23:18:46 <Eleuthria> That's the hope :)
2282 2013-05-14 23:19:22 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: bitcoind getrawmempool | wc -l
2283 2013-05-14 23:19:23 <gmaxwell> ?
2284 2013-05-14 23:19:31 <gmaxwell> (How big is your memory pool right now?)
2285 2013-05-14 23:19:38 <Eleuthria> one moment
2286 2013-05-14 23:19:44 <sipa> Eleuthria: unless you immiediately plan to build close-to-1MB blocks, i don't think a fork will happen soon
2287 2013-05-14 23:19:44 XertroV has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2288 2013-05-14 23:19:57 <Eleuthria> I'm keeping my blocks at 475 KB
2289 2013-05-14 23:20:02 mE\Ta has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2290 2013-05-14 23:20:06 <k9quaint> in 64 minutes the DHS and the Illuminati will port Bitcoin to Visual Basic and then eat oreo cookies
2291 2013-05-14 23:20:15 <k9quaint> thats my prediction
2292 2013-05-14 23:20:30 <Luke-Jr> sipa: no way to remove that requirement? :x
2293 2013-05-14 23:20:40 <sipa> Luke-Jr: no
2294 2013-05-14 23:21:04 <Eleuthria> gmaxwell: 1998
2295 2013-05-14 23:21:10 <Eleuthria> Is the result of the command
2296 2013-05-14 23:21:18 <Eleuthria> getmininginfo is easier to read though :P
2297 2013-05-14 23:21:19 chax has joined
2298 2013-05-14 23:21:22 <Luke-Jr> sipa: is the chain code necessary? the BIP makes it sound like a "just in case of collision" thing
2299 2013-05-14 23:21:27 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: yea, okay.. so seems unlikely that a dangerblock will arrive soon.
2300 2013-05-14 23:21:40 taha has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2301 2013-05-14 23:21:45 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I mean, could the chain code be eliminated entirely without loss of functionality?
2302 2013-05-14 23:21:45 <Eleuthria> "pooledtx" : 2031,
2303 2013-05-14 23:21:47 <sipa> Luke-Jr: and i also see no reason why this should be a problem; if we actually want a user-friendly way of setting up recurring payments, it will need a higher-level protocol anyway so that users don't need to see addresses
2304 2013-05-14 23:21:51 <sipa> Luke-Jr: no
2305 2013-05-14 23:22:01 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: no, it's whats used to increment the key.
2306 2013-05-14 23:22:02 <sipa> Luke-Jr: not without loss of security properties
2307 2013-05-14 23:22:17 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: in any case, it's only 544 bits in total per key.
2308 2013-05-14 23:22:20 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I'm not thinking recurring payments. I'm thinking "post an address on the forum"
2309 2013-05-14 23:22:38 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: you don't post the extended key on the forum. You give the forum the extended key and it generates the addresses.
2310 2013-05-14 23:22:40 <sipa> Luke-Jr: in what way would that be better than just posting a static address>
2311 2013-05-14 23:22:43 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I thought 513?
2312 2013-05-14 23:22:53 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: dumb forums don't know how to do that
2313 2013-05-14 23:23:09 <Luke-Jr> sipa: every transaction would use a unique key
2314 2013-05-14 23:23:25 <sipa> Luke-Jr: if you publish the ext pubkey, you lose the unlinkability between them anyway
2315 2013-05-14 23:23:29 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: if you make the extended key public people will snarf it and track the addresses.
2316 2013-05-14 23:24:16 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: it's more work, though?
2317 2013-05-14 23:24:23 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: especially if the preimage thing is used
2318 2013-05-14 23:24:39 <sipa> people can just iterate them
2319 2013-05-14 23:25:08 <Luke-Jr> sipa: assuming they're used in order
2320 2013-05-14 23:25:13 <Luke-Jr> which is not really viable for this
2321 2013-05-14 23:25:17 <sipa> they should be
2322 2013-05-14 23:25:26 <sipa> or you lose recoverability
2323 2013-05-14 23:25:35 <Luke-Jr> hmm
2324 2013-05-14 23:26:03 <sipa> assuming that there's better unlinkability because the linking information is now outside the blockchain instead of inside, is imho like a security through obscurity argument
2325 2013-05-14 23:26:08 chax has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2326 2013-05-14 23:26:14 <sipa> yes it's a bit harder, but it only takes one person to figure it out
2327 2013-05-14 23:26:15 Muis has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2328 2013-05-14 23:26:39 <sipa> so i consider extended public keys as "private but not secret data"
2329 2013-05-14 23:26:45 <sipa> and you shouldn't just publish it
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2332 2013-05-14 23:27:53 <Luke-Jr> sigh'
2333 2013-05-14 23:28:00 <Luke-Jr> so much for that idea
2334 2013-05-14 23:28:32 <sipa> but having forum software that generates addresses from an extended pubkey would be cool
2335 2013-05-14 23:28:44 <sipa> or any software, for that matter
2336 2013-05-14 23:28:46 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I mean, we could define ANOTHER kind of address where the public key depends on the txins of the paying transactions... but thats bloom filtering incompatible.
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2340 2013-05-14 23:32:00 <gmaxwell> e.g. ecpoint(H(inputs))*G + pubkey = out address. ... and then you get to check every transaction that shows up on the network with some costly ecmath to find out if its destined for you. :P
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2345 2013-05-14 23:33:23 <gmaxwell> sipa: In any case, we will need some seralized format for extended keys for key generation, e.g. for reoccuring pool payments and loading the forum autokeyer.
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2348 2013-05-14 23:34:32 <sipa> gmaxwell: there's already a serialization for extpubkeys
2349 2013-05-14 23:36:41 <gmaxwell> oh. dur.
2350 2013-05-14 23:37:45 <phantomcircuit> so
2351 2013-05-14 23:37:49 * TD -> back later
2352 2013-05-14 23:38:03 <phantomcircuit> i have a testnet wallet with like
2353 2013-05-14 23:38:06 <phantomcircuit> 2 million keys
2354 2013-05-14 23:38:14 <phantomcircuit> it took about 4 days to load
2355 2013-05-14 23:42:39 brwyatt_ is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt_
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2360 2013-05-14 23:49:31 <Cory> Does somebody maintain data that shows what fraction of the network is using certain versions/types of Bitcoin clients?
2361 2013-05-14 23:50:44 <midnightmagic> phantomcircuit: I have a mainnet wallet that is 200MB and the damn thing took 1906730ms to load. :(
2362 2013-05-14 23:50:47 [Tycho] has joined
2363 2013-05-14 23:51:06 <gmaxwell> Cory: yes, at least for some definition of "fraction of the network"
2364 2013-05-14 23:51:17 <gmaxwell> (the defintion where you're talking about publically accessible listening nodes)
2365 2013-05-14 23:51:40 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
2366 2013-05-14 23:52:30 <midnightmagic> Cory: I think Luke-Jr runs a pie chart for client versions..
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2369 2013-05-14 23:54:00 <gmaxwell> e.g. http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/branches.html
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2371 2013-05-14 23:54:03 XertroV has joined
2372 2013-05-14 23:54:17 <gmaxwell> but again, this doesn't report on all nodes— just connectable ones.
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