1 2013-05-15 00:00:52 <BCB> anyone know how to change the bitcoin URI default action in Chrome?
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   6 2013-05-15 00:14:44 <Cory> gmaxwell, midnightmagic, Luke-Jr: Awesome, thank you!
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  11 2013-05-15 00:23:55 <petertodd> reminds me, my timestamper is on 0.7...
  12 2013-05-15 00:24:20 <petertodd> meh, it's probably the only service with a hot wallet without a fork risk
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  18 2013-05-15 00:30:55 <sipa> great, no fork yet
  19 2013-05-15 00:30:58 * sipa sleeps
  20 2013-05-15 00:31:03 <gmaxwell> sipa: night!
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  22 2013-05-15 00:31:33 <gmaxwell> If some fork arises and I don't respond instantly, someone call me please. Last one happened minutes after I went to dinner.
  23 2013-05-15 00:31:49 * Cusipzzz drunk dials gmaxwell :)
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  25 2013-05-15 00:33:07 <Sydna> are we looking forward to the fork or dreading it?
  26 2013-05-15 00:33:36 <gmaxwell> Sydna: what fork?
  27 2013-05-15 00:33:50 <gmaxwell> it's very likely one will never form.
  28 2013-05-15 00:34:01 <Eleuthria> gmaxwell:  Trying to remember, did most the devs get my phone # after the last incident?
  29 2013-05-15 00:34:12 <Sydna> gmaxwell: oh, I was under the impression that it likely would now.
  30 2013-05-15 00:34:40 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: it's in the infrastructure spreadsheet.
  31 2013-05-15 00:34:42 <Eleuthria> I'll try to go to bed early so if I get an emergency call I have some semblance of consciousness.
  32 2013-05-15 00:35:02 <Sydna> gmaxwell: well, people will be left behind for sure.
  33 2013-05-15 00:35:10 <Eleuthria> But the patch was pretty simple, don't see what could really go wrong
  34 2013-05-15 00:35:35 <gmaxwell> Sydna: eventually. Yes. Maybe. It's not clear how many people are still running unworkarounded pre 0.8.
  35 2013-05-15 00:35:43 <Eleuthria> A fork will happen eventually, but it will probably only affect end users, not any major services.
  36 2013-05-15 00:36:07 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: No, not 'evenutally' as there may never be any blocks mined rejecting the big blocks.
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  38 2013-05-15 00:36:17 <Eleuthria> People booting up that mining PC from 2011 on 0.3 :P
  39 2013-05-15 00:36:19 <Sydna> gmaxwell: understood
  40 2013-05-15 00:36:43 <Eleuthria> gmaxwell:  True, that block that set off the last fork was very unique.  Not only large, but lots of affected txes
  41 2013-05-15 00:36:43 <sipa> Eleuthria: with -gen enabled by default, and _accidentally_ hitting the odds of mining a solo block? :p
  42 2013-05-15 00:36:45 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: yea, with a one in a million chance of finding a block. :P
  43 2013-05-15 00:36:56 <Eleuthria> I'm not saying they'll start a fork :P
  44 2013-05-15 00:37:06 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: yea, also because big miners had 0.8 way in advance of the rest of the network.
  45 2013-05-15 00:37:07 <Eleuthria> But they might boot up their bitcoin client and be unable to sync
  46 2013-05-15 00:37:30 <gmaxwell> yea, eventually old nodes will get stuck... though it's not clear how many actually exist once you discount forgotten nodes left running on random servers.
  47 2013-05-15 00:37:38 <Eleuthria> Aye
  48 2013-05-15 00:37:57 <gmaxwell> a lot of sufficiently old nodes are already stuck as there were past bugs with big reorgs that got hit.
  49 2013-05-15 00:38:52 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: might be interesting to see branches graph filtered so that nodes which are >16384 blocks behind are ignored.
  50 2013-05-15 00:39:05 <gmaxwell> I bet that removes a fair number of <0.6.2 nodes.
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  56 2013-05-15 00:41:12 <Sydna> someone just tried to steal a bitcoin wallet from my server. pity they used the root ssh login and got lost in the honeypot.
  57 2013-05-15 00:41:29 <Luke-Jr> lol
  58 2013-05-15 00:41:35 <gmaxwell> Sydna: hah. Hows that work?
  59 2013-05-15 00:42:05 <nsh> ooo, free honey
  60 2013-05-15 00:42:10 <gmaxwell> does your honeypot have plausable fake wallets to steal?
  61 2013-05-15 00:42:19 <edcba> you should put an honeypot wallet
  62 2013-05-15 00:42:20 <Sydna> gmaxwell: I've a fake SSH server running with 'kippo', it looks and acts like a root shell but just records their actions.
  63 2013-05-15 00:42:29 <nsh> kippo++
  64 2013-05-15 00:42:40 <nsh> you should launch them into a text adventure
  65 2013-05-15 00:42:46 <Eleuthria> Honeypot server with rotating wallets of 0.0005, just enough to pay the txfee :P
  66 2013-05-15 00:42:47 <sipa> > go west
  67 2013-05-15 00:42:48 <Sydna> it has a wallet.dat that you can see, but it's blank if you try to read it.
  68 2013-05-15 00:42:48 <nsh> hook it up to irc for extra credit
  69 2013-05-15 00:43:01 <edcba> :)
  70 2013-05-15 00:43:24 <gmaxwell> Eleuthria: I keep wallets with a reasonable amount of btc on my hosts... losing a half bitcoin is a cheap compromise notice.
  71 2013-05-15 00:43:29 <Sydna> hah, maybe
  72 2013-05-15 00:43:55 <Sydna> gmaxwell: that's fairly clever actually. canary wallets.
  73 2013-05-15 00:43:56 <RedEmerald> i had an IP trying to login with usernames like 'bitcoin' and 'litecoin'
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  75 2013-05-15 00:44:06 <RedEmerald> i should setup kippo or something
  76 2013-05-15 00:44:19 <gmaxwell> Sydna: you can do more fun things there... e.g. make an encrypted wallet which has some random pubkeys from the chain.. so it'll look like it has a bunch of coins... but just random data in the master encrypted key fields.
  77 2013-05-15 00:44:33 <Eleuthria> find / -name wallet.dat....You have been eaten be a grue.
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  79 2013-05-15 00:45:00 <Sydna> gmaxwell: oh that is genius too. an encrypted wallet with thousands of BTC.
  80 2013-05-15 00:45:02 <gmaxwell> Sydna: I thought it might be an interesting business to run— sell people canary wallets.. and run a sms monitoring service (and perhaps keep a copy of the private keys so the coins can be recovered if forgotten)
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  83 2013-05-15 00:45:39 <Sydna> gmaxwell: a canary wallet would be useful though. store some privkeys with 0.5BTC on a server, and watch for then disappearing.
  84 2013-05-15 00:45:41 <warren> gmaxwell: oh, you mean Cascacius?
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  86 2013-05-15 00:46:30 <warren> bad joke
  87 2013-05-15 00:46:31 <edcba> anyway better than accounts as honeypot are files
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  89 2013-05-15 00:46:48 <edcba> accessing some folder will triger a complete shutdown
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  91 2013-05-15 00:47:16 <edcba> so you put your bitcoin wallet into ~/.mozilla
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  93 2013-05-15 00:47:32 <gmaxwell> Sydna: yes, thats what I do.
  94 2013-05-15 00:47:39 <edcba> and put your honeypot into ~/bitcoin
  95 2013-05-15 00:47:51 <edcba> so as soon as somebody does cd bitcoin poof
  96 2013-05-15 00:48:02 <edcba> nothing to steal anymore
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  98 2013-05-15 00:49:33 <Sydna> poof.
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 100 2013-05-15 00:50:25 <Sydna> hope you've all patched your kernels against the privilege escalation 0day.
 101 2013-05-15 00:50:29 <linq> I've wanted to start a honeypot for a while now. Would be a great source of entertainment
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 103 2013-05-15 00:51:00 <Sydna> kippo is easy to set up, and has a nice replay tool.
 104 2013-05-15 00:51:02 <linq> Sydna: What kind of VM do you use for your honeypot?
 105 2013-05-15 00:51:52 <Sydna> linq: I dont, just kippo running as a locked down user, and iptables takes port 22
 106 2013-05-15 00:52:26 <Sydna> just be careful. people caught in honeypots tend to get pissed off.
 107 2013-05-15 00:52:36 <linq> Hah, I can imagine
 108 2013-05-15 00:53:54 <TD> Sydna: how did the guy get the password?
 109 2013-05-15 00:54:47 sipa has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 110 2013-05-15 00:55:06 franl has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 111 2013-05-15 00:56:12 <Sydna> TD: in this case, tried to guess
 112 2013-05-15 00:56:45 <Sydna> TD: root:toor in this case
 113 2013-05-15 00:57:27 <Sydna> ergh. said the same thing twice.
 114 2013-05-15 00:57:45 <TD> huh. amazing.
 115 2013-05-15 00:57:53 <TD> how many guesses were they making?
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 118 2013-05-15 00:59:02 <[Tycho]> Isn't root login disabled by default on all ssh services ?
 119 2013-05-15 00:59:12 <nsh> (it's not sshd listening)
 120 2013-05-15 00:59:32 <Sydna> [Tycho]: nope.
 121 2013-05-15 00:59:39 <[Tycho]> I know that he is talking about honeypot.
 122 2013-05-15 00:59:42 <Luke-Jr> [Tycho]: I'd say not most
 123 2013-05-15 00:59:59 <Sydna> it's disabled on EC2, but Debian for example allows it by default
 124 2013-05-15 01:00:11 <nsh> see the internet census...
 125 2013-05-15 01:00:13 <gmaxwell> is on mine, but I think most distributions don't enable that option by default.
 126 2013-05-15 01:00:41 <Sydna> nsh: most of that was root:root wasn't jt?
 127 2013-05-15 01:00:51 <nsh> yup
 128 2013-05-15 01:01:01 <nsh> order of 50k iirc
 129 2013-05-15 01:01:18 <Sydna> nasty.
 130 2013-05-15 01:01:53 <nsh> (binary ran on 420k machines)
 131 2013-05-15 01:01:57 <Sydna> people must used the bitcoin seed nodes to find targets though, otherwise I don't think I would have snared someone looking for a wallet
 132 2013-05-15 01:02:07 <TD> probably
 133 2013-05-15 01:02:17 <nsh> (multiply that by your typical dnssec amplification ratio...)
 134 2013-05-15 01:02:38 <Sydna> nsh: nasty.
 135 2013-05-15 01:03:15 <HM2> there's a workaround for the "0day" (it's not a 0day) if you're waiting for a kernel update
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 138 2013-05-15 01:04:03 <HM2> sudo sysctl -w kernel.perf_event_paranoid=2
 139 2013-05-15 01:04:15 <nsh> oh, that's better than earlier proposed workarounds
 140 2013-05-15 01:04:44 <TD> i guess i need to upgrade to wheezy
 141 2013-05-15 01:04:58 <HM2> TD: squeeze isn't vulnerable, wheezy is
 142 2013-05-15 01:05:09 <TD> yeah but i will eventually need to upgrade anyway :)
 143 2013-05-15 01:05:13 <TD> good to know though, thanks
 144 2013-05-15 01:07:05 <HM2> think i'll move my bitcoin boxes over to a hardened distro sometime
 145 2013-05-15 01:07:32 <HM2> apparently there are 3 distinct defenses in grsecurity that would have stopped the public exploits
 146 2013-05-15 01:07:34 <TD> i was thinking of doing a bitcoin dns seed, but have started thinking twice lately. i don't have any dedicated hardware.
 147 2013-05-15 01:07:51 <TD> i might look into how much a dedicated box costs in a local zurich colo at some point
 148 2013-05-15 01:09:45 <HM2> everything is cheaper in the States when it comes to hosting services
 149 2013-05-15 01:09:52 <HM2> in my experience anyway
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 152 2013-05-15 01:10:24 <Sydna> or OVH
 153 2013-05-15 01:10:35 <Sydna> they're cheap and don't care how you treat their network
 154 2013-05-15 01:10:54 <Sydna> (French)
 155 2013-05-15 01:11:31 <HM2> I have a friend with boxes on OVH
 156 2013-05-15 01:11:39 <redeeman> server4you.net is super cheap
 157 2013-05-15 01:11:42 <jgarzik> quick check-in, during baby bedtime
 158 2013-05-15 01:11:43 <redeeman> they have germany and US datacenters
 159 2013-05-15 01:11:45 <jgarzik> fork forking yet?
 160 2013-05-15 01:11:52 <jgarzik> what's the countdown?
 161 2013-05-15 01:12:06 <Cusipzzz> jgarzik: negative, the flowers are not blooming in houston
 162 2013-05-15 01:12:43 <Cusipzzz> nothing yet
 163 2013-05-15 01:13:12 Sydna_ has joined
 164 2013-05-15 01:14:25 ecoloco has joined
 165 2013-05-15 01:14:25 <ecoloco> WTF HAPPEND TO BITCOIN?!? ?!?!?! 105-106 $ / 1 bitcoin
 166 2013-05-15 01:15:06 <Cusipzzz> ecoloco: wrong channel, but: http://betabeat.com/2013/05/department-of-homeland-security-shuts-down-dwolla-payments-to-and-from-mt-gox/
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 178 2013-05-15 01:22:01 <TD> jgarzik: i guess someone should run an old node so we know when it finally chokes
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 181 2013-05-15 01:23:15 <Cusipzzz> <--running an old node
 182 2013-05-15 01:23:19 Sydna has joined
 183 2013-05-15 01:23:42 <Cusipzzz> and a new, side by side
 184 2013-05-15 01:23:51 <gmaxwell> TD: the choking isn't determinstic, alas.
 185 2013-05-15 01:23:55 <Cusipzzz> no issues yet, logs clean
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 187 2013-05-15 01:24:37 <Cusipzzz> 236240 just hit both no probs
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 197 2013-05-15 01:35:19 <ecoloco> Cusipzzz: ok thanks
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 208 2013-05-15 01:42:26 <ecoloco> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRBS5WZMdik
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 215 2013-05-15 01:45:15 <etotheipi_> where am I supposed to find the terminal flags to use with Bitcoin-Qt pre-0.8 to avoid forking?
 216 2013-05-15 01:45:29 <etotheipi_> shouldn't there be an announcement somewhere about how to do this?
 217 2013-05-15 01:45:53 <Eleuthria> http://bitcoin.org/may15.html
 218 2013-05-15 01:46:00 <ryan-c> if you run it with -server I'm pretty sure it stays in the forground by default
 219 2013-05-15 01:46:13 <etotheipi_> Eleuthria: thanks!
 220 2013-05-15 01:46:17 <Eleuthria> No problem
 221 2013-05-15 01:46:25 <Eleuthria> Would highly recommend just upgrading to a 0.8 line
 222 2013-05-15 01:46:28 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: yea, I was pondering if he was asking the question for your answer or not.
 223 2013-05-15 01:46:29 <Eleuthria> It's significantly faster
 224 2013-05-15 01:46:47 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: or run getinfo on any pre 0.8 node to see that URL in the error field.
 225 2013-05-15 01:47:19 <ryan-c> hm
 226 2013-05-15 01:47:21 <etotheipi_> Eleuthria: I am trying to help someone who is not tech savvy... I want the easiest way possible, and don't want to risk having him download the blockchain again
 227 2013-05-15 01:47:28 owowo has joined
 228 2013-05-15 01:47:34 <ryan-c> I don't remember when i upgraded to 0.8.1
 229 2013-05-15 01:47:37 <saivann> etotheipi_ : I plan to have some kind of "Alert" section in the website later to have these things easier to find
 230 2013-05-15 01:47:38 <ryan-c> but apparently i did
 231 2013-05-15 01:47:59 <etotheipi_> doing the backport thing seemed easier than having him figure out how to bootstrap off the old files
 232 2013-05-15 01:48:12 Blackreign has quit ()
 233 2013-05-15 01:48:25 hsmiths has joined
 234 2013-05-15 01:48:29 <ryan-c> is there a patch to do json dumps of block data (including transactions) that applies to current versions of bitcoind?
 235 2013-05-15 01:49:05 Diapolis has joined
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 237 2013-05-15 01:49:36 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: uh. you mean getblock and getrawtransaction  which have been included since 0.7?
 238 2013-05-15 01:50:04 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 239 2013-05-15 01:50:08 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: I will look again, but they didn't appear to have all the data
 240 2013-05-15 01:50:32 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: what are you trying to obtain?
 241 2013-05-15 01:50:38 viperhr has joined
 242 2013-05-15 01:50:56 <HM2> oh
 243 2013-05-15 01:51:04 <HM2> btw
 244 2013-05-15 01:51:10 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
 245 2013-05-15 01:51:17 <HM2> JSON Spirit has been updated by the author after 18 months
 246 2013-05-15 01:51:27 <HM2> http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/20027/JSON-Spirit-A-C-JSON-Parser-Generator-Implemented
 247 2013-05-15 01:51:33 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: Parsed transactiond data.
 248 2013-05-15 01:51:59 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: getrawtransaction gives you the full binary transaction or a complete decode with all information.
 249 2013-05-15 01:52:05 <HM2> since it's in the Bitcoin tree, i figure it might be relevant
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 251 2013-05-15 01:52:13 <gmaxwell> ryan-c: what do you think is missing?
 252 2013-05-15 01:52:50 <ryan-c> gmaxwell: Ah, there we go. I didn't know about the 'verbose' flag to getrawtransaction, thanks.
 253 2013-05-15 01:53:54 XertroV has joined
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 255 2013-05-15 01:54:02 <ryan-c> I've got some code that expects json in this format: https://coinbase.com/network/blocks/000000000000008a1a367c56bb87fd4158772e64792e47d184e5ac2983cd2b7b.json, which I can generate from those commands.
 256 2013-05-15 01:54:12 <ryan-c> I take it that there's no longer a single command that will give me that?
 257 2013-05-15 01:54:19 hsmiths has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 258 2013-05-15 01:55:10 <gmaxwell> There has never been one.
 259 2013-05-15 01:55:20 <ryan-c> er
 260 2013-05-15 01:55:22 <jgarzik> json-spirit is such templated crap
 261 2013-05-15 01:55:27 <ryan-c> right, there was a patch that generated it
 262 2013-05-15 01:55:48 <jgarzik> tried to build as .a, but failed
 263 2013-05-15 01:55:50 <gmaxwell> HM2: "Oh boy, just when I though I might have enough ram to compile bitcoin without swapping!"
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 266 2013-05-15 01:56:57 <jgarzik> ryan-c, it was always a patch, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=724.0
 267 2013-05-15 01:57:21 metabyte_ has joined
 268 2013-05-15 01:57:39 <ryan-c> yeah, i know it was always a patch, i misspoke
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 270 2013-05-15 01:58:38 <HM2> gmaxwell: lol, well it's a minor update
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 272 2013-05-15 01:59:21 <jgarzik> quick, somebody spam the network, to test the blocksize
 273 2013-05-15 01:59:33 <Cusipzzz> lol
 274 2013-05-15 01:59:54 <jgarzik> maybe get evorhees to announce SD discount
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 288 2013-05-15 02:27:43 <franl> Following an "importprivkey" command, is the burst of CPU activity caused by bitcoin scanning the blockchain looking for transactions associated with that key?
 289 2013-05-15 02:30:34 Diapolis has joined
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 291 2013-05-15 02:31:52 <JDuke128> hello , my bit coin balance shown as 0 , but i has 0.02 BTC , what can be wrong ? can be because of not block chain downloaded or broken something?
 292 2013-05-15 02:32:03 px has joined
 293 2013-05-15 02:32:24 <mollison> franl: i'm not a dev, so can't say for certain, but that is almost certainly correct
 294 2013-05-15 02:32:36 Belkaar has joined
 295 2013-05-15 02:32:50 <Cusipzzz> what am I going to do, I made so much popcorn for this :/
 296 2013-05-15 02:32:54 <gmaxwell> JDuke128: How do you know that you "has" 0.02 if your balance shows zero?
 297 2013-05-15 02:33:06 <franl> mollison, that's what I figured.
 298 2013-05-15 02:33:26 <JDuke128> because my code was working fine yesterday
 299 2013-05-15 02:33:31 <gmaxwell> Cusipzzz: go into a rage and kill the "journalist" who told you that there would be something to see.  We will enjoy your popcorn while you fight.
 300 2013-05-15 02:33:34 <PRab_> JDuke128: Are you using bitcoin-QT? How many blocks does it show if you hover over the icon in the lower right corner?
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 302 2013-05-15 02:33:47 <JDuke128> no i m making my own app with bitcoinj api
 303 2013-05-15 02:34:11 <JDuke128> this happened me after i tried to switch from SPV to H2FullPrunedBlockStore
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 307 2013-05-15 02:36:57 <Cusipzzz> gmaxwell: /rageforknonevent
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 312 2013-05-15 02:41:13 <k9quaint> gmaxwell, I am so disappointed that bitcoin did not fly apart at the seems :(
 313 2013-05-15 02:42:22 <Cusipzzz> (yet) lol
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 322 2013-05-15 03:01:40 <k9quaint> *seams
 323 2013-05-15 03:03:39 <jgarzik> nothing over 500k yet, correct?
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 326 2013-05-15 03:06:39 <Cusipzzz> jgarzik: nope. a watched blockchain never forks :/
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 328 2013-05-15 03:07:52 * Eleuthria pushes the red button.
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 333 2013-05-15 03:08:27 * Cusipzzz sits with his cold popcorn watching his nodes
 334 2013-05-15 03:09:12 <lianj> \ /
 335 2013-05-15 03:09:17 <lianj>  Y
 336 2013-05-15 03:09:19 <lianj>  |
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 339 2013-05-15 03:10:09 <jgarzik> Cusipzzz, heh
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 341 2013-05-15 03:10:22 <Eleuthria> --<
 342 2013-05-15 03:10:40 * owowo eyes are burning
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 344 2013-05-15 03:11:50 <franl> Is 500k the max block size that older nodes would accept?
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 346 2013-05-15 03:12:26 <lianj> not that simle
 347 2013-05-15 03:12:31 <lianj> p
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 349 2013-05-15 03:12:36 <Eleuthria> No, it's based on how many transactions in the database are affected by the block (might be slightly off on terms)
 350 2013-05-15 03:12:48 <franl> ok
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 352 2013-05-15 03:13:13 <TheLordOfTime> once you switch the block size to large will 0.8.1 clients still be able to process the larger blocks?
 353 2013-05-15 03:13:23 <TheLordOfTime> (or will I need to update the client)
 354 2013-05-15 03:16:07 nowan has joined
 355 2013-05-15 03:16:30 <gmaxwell> 0.8.1 is already updated, you don't need to do anything. There is no "switch the block size to large", as lianj said— it's not that simple.
 356 2013-05-15 03:16:37 <crumb> ok, i could've sworn i read about how it would be possible in the future to trim redundancies in the chain, so how come it's not being employed?
 357 2013-05-15 03:16:45 <crumb> 9GB isn't big enough to warrant it?
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 360 2013-05-15 03:18:56 <franl> By "redundancies" do you mean transactions with completely spent outputs?
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 365 2013-05-15 03:21:48 <crumb> franl: from what i recall
 366 2013-05-15 03:21:55 <gmaxwell> crumb: no, 9gb isn't really big enough to warrant it. Part of the purpose of the 0.8 redesign was to begin the process of facilitating that. But note: it doesn't reduce the data that needs to be transfered, and the data still needs to be stored and available to bring up new nodes— it just means that not all nodes will need all the historic data.
 367 2013-05-15 03:22:05 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
 368 2013-05-15 03:22:25 <JDuke128> hi , my simple app is that bitcoinj : http://pastie.org/7909577 this always returns "0 BTC" although i ve bit coins in wallet.Another problem is …  although i send btc to my wallet from other app , onCoinsReceived is called but inside that , onConfidenceChanged is never called.Why this can be happen on this code?
 369 2013-05-15 03:22:53 <crumb> gmaxwell: got it, thanks :)
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 387 2013-05-15 03:32:59 <franl> crumb, see https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability#Storage
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 401 2013-05-15 03:48:00 <franl> Is there a block height below which all transaction outputs have been spent?  If so, can that be used to optimize bootstrapping of new clients?
 402 2013-05-15 03:48:39 <Luke-Jr> franl: not securely
 403 2013-05-15 03:48:49 molec has joined
 404 2013-05-15 03:49:06 <franl> Luke-Jr, in that it opens the possibility of double spends?
 405 2013-05-15 03:49:39 <Luke-Jr> franl: in that you'd need to trust the blocks between that one, and the block which spent everything before it
 406 2013-05-15 03:49:58 <Luke-Jr> without verifying them
 407 2013-05-15 03:50:07 <franl> Luke-Jr, yes.  I see.
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 415 2013-05-15 03:58:29 <franl> Luke-Jr, but pruning the Merkle tree to remove txns with fully spent outputs can greatly reduce the amount of blockchain data needed to bootstrap a new client, right?
 416 2013-05-15 03:59:34 <gmaxwell> No.
 417 2013-05-15 04:00:00 SwedFTP has joined
 418 2013-05-15 04:00:06 <franl> Hmm, I thought that's what is described in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability#Storage
 419 2013-05-15 04:00:13 <gmaxwell> I new client must verify the spent ones too. Otherwise someone can show up and say "I have a billion bitcoins granted to me by all those already spent txn that you ignored"
 420 2013-05-15 04:00:53 <gmaxwell> franl: "needed to store" _not_ "having to processes ever"
 421 2013-05-15 04:01:34 <franl> Yes.  Make sense.  Thanks for helping me wrap my head around this.
 422 2013-05-15 04:02:33 WoozyBluff has joined
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 424 2013-05-15 04:03:32 <franl> So this statement in the Wiki at the above link implies a degree of trust that would not exist if txns were not pruned:
 425 2013-05-15 04:03:34 <franl> "Only a small number of archival nodes need to store the full chain going back to the genesis block. These nodes can be used to bootstrap new fully validating nodes from scratch but are otherwise unnecessary."
 426 2013-05-15 04:03:54 <WoozyBluff> I will exchange bitcoin for advertising space for my hosting affiliate Url/banner
 427 2013-05-15 04:04:32 <gmaxwell> franl: trust that those nodes are reachable, yes.
 428 2013-05-15 04:04:33 <Luke-Jr> WoozyBluff: off-topic, this is a development channel
 429 2013-05-15 04:05:07 <franl> gmaxwell, but not trust that those "archival nodes" provide valid txn info?
 430 2013-05-15 04:05:23 WoozyBluff has left ()
 431 2013-05-15 04:05:28 <gmaxwell> franl: they can't lie, they can only deny service, the identity of transactions are commited to in the blockchain.
 432 2013-05-15 04:05:42 <franl> gmaxwell, yep.  I see.
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 526 2013-05-15 05:55:06 pZombie has joined
 527 2013-05-15 05:55:27 <pZombie> Can a developer blacklist blocks in the blockchain?
 528 2013-05-15 05:56:40 <cjd> to what effect?
 529 2013-05-15 05:57:14 <cjd> I mean anyone can blacklist anything but nobody else has to listen to them....
 530 2013-05-15 05:57:19 <pZombie> i was in an altcoin chat, there being a 51% attacker. The dev saying something along the lines of him going to blacklist his blocks
 531 2013-05-15 05:57:42 <pZombie> hm
 532 2013-05-15 05:57:56 <[Tycho]> That's why bad altcoins never will be popular :)
 533 2013-05-15 05:58:03 <gmaxwell> pZombie: if it's ppcoin yes, the devloper remotely controls the chain consensus in that coin.
 534 2013-05-15 05:58:20 <pZombie> so what if the developer vanishes?
 535 2013-05-15 05:58:25 <pZombie> who is going to control after?
 536 2013-05-15 05:58:35 crumb has left ()
 537 2013-05-15 05:58:40 <cjd> hilarity insues?
 538 2013-05-15 05:58:53 <cjd> (re why bitcoin doesn't do anything like this)
 539 2013-05-15 05:59:33 <cjd> so guys, did we fork yet did we fork yet did we fork yet? :)
 540 2013-05-15 05:59:46 * Luke-Jr wonders if anyone will notice <.<
 541 2013-05-15 05:59:47 <gmaxwell>  /kick cjd
 542 2013-05-15 05:59:56 <cjd> :(
 543 2013-05-15 05:59:57 <jchp> ppcoin's proof of work tries to solve the 51% attack surface by creating another attack surface, genius!
 544 2013-05-15 05:59:57 <Luke-Jr> Eligius is no longer running a 0.6 node :/
 545 2013-05-15 06:00:06 cjd has left ()
 546 2013-05-15 06:00:17 <gmaxwell> jchp: yea, thats actually a common theme. Solidcoin did that too.
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 548 2013-05-15 06:00:57 <pZombie> it seem alt coins are all dying. Too many fail/half arsed attempts, hurting all other coins
 549 2013-05-15 06:01:37 <[Tycho]> The only one useful altcoin was NMC, but it still died.
 550 2013-05-15 06:01:40 <gmaxwell> jchp: there is a somewhat subtle insight here. If your concern about "51%" is a concern about a majority more than it's a concern about, say, computing power not reflecting the real majority... then any 'fix' must necessarily create cases where an _minority_ attacker— say 0.0001%— must be successful
 551 2013-05-15 06:01:52 <pZombie> i found the idea of elacoin good
 552 2013-05-15 06:01:58 <pZombie> but it is badly executed
 553 2013-05-15 06:02:35 <gmaxwell> You never see any of these people blabering on about "fixing" the "51% problem" talk much about potential misalignment between economic/human majorities and computational ones.
 554 2013-05-15 06:02:38 <Luke-Jr> pZombie: I think the real hurt is from lack of attention (NMC is the only clearly dying/dead legit altcoin)
 555 2013-05-15 06:02:52 <pZombie> the idea was to give block rewards according to the hashrate, hence increase block rewards when total hash is low, and decrease when hash is high. So no early adopters can rape the coin
 556 2013-05-15 06:02:54 <Luke-Jr> well, I guess PPC is too - I don't hear of them doing anything
 557 2013-05-15 06:03:05 <pZombie> the rewards would remain the same, only controlled by your hashrate
 558 2013-05-15 06:03:37 <pZombie> that along with a coin which states clearly that the algo would change if ASICs were going to be developed would be quite a nice alternative
 559 2013-05-15 06:03:46 <gmaxwell> well, think about if. If you feel like futzing with that stuff... do you put in cycles maintaining something existing— or start a new one and make a quick buck on its startup bubble? The altcoin community's bubble feeding has killed altcoins.
 560 2013-05-15 06:03:57 <pZombie> noone would even bother to create ASICs knowing the algo would be changed in such a case
 561 2013-05-15 06:04:24 <Luke-Jr> pZombie: …
 562 2013-05-15 06:04:26 <Luke-Jr> ASICs are a good thing
 563 2013-05-15 06:04:28 <Arnavion> pZombie: That sounds very corruptible
 564 2013-05-15 06:04:38 <gmaxwell> pZombie: uh. except an attacker that wants to break it. ... as luke says.
 565 2013-05-15 06:04:42 <pZombie> asics WOULD have been a good thing if they were as available as GPUs
 566 2013-05-15 06:04:44 <pZombie> but they are not
 567 2013-05-15 06:04:50 <Arnavion> pZombie: Who's to say I haven't bribed that altcoin's members to tell me what the next algo will be in advance?
 568 2013-05-15 06:04:59 <Arnavion> s/members/devs/
 569 2013-05-15 06:05:01 <gmaxwell> pZombie: you obviously weren't around here in most of 2011.
 570 2013-05-15 06:05:02 <jchp> gmaxwell: yeah agreed, it's somewhat myopic to prioritize economic ideals against security, though.
 571 2013-05-15 06:05:16 <pZombie> ARnavion - the community can DECIDE if they want to update to the next client or not
 572 2013-05-15 06:05:27 <pZombie> it's the same as with bitcoin
 573 2013-05-15 06:05:37 <pZombie> if the community says no to the next update, too bad
 574 2013-05-15 06:05:47 <Arnavion> pZombie: There's never a reason to say yes, then
 575 2013-05-15 06:06:11 <Arnavion> pZombie: I as a user of that coin can never be sure everyone else doesn't already have ASICs for the next algo
 576 2013-05-15 06:06:15 <pZombie> not sure i understand your objection
 577 2013-05-15 06:06:35 <pZombie> that's far fetched
 578 2013-05-15 06:06:50 <Arnavion> In fact, it doesn't even have to be "everyone else"
 579 2013-05-15 06:06:53 <pZombie> noone would put millions into developing ASICs by himself when it is at stake if they would even work
 580 2013-05-15 06:07:06 <Arnavion> If even one person knows, the integrity of the process and its entire purpose is defeated
 581 2013-05-15 06:07:14 <pZombie> let alone he would get no pre-orders when the initial goal of the coin clearly stated to combat asics by changing the algo
 582 2013-05-15 06:07:25 <gmaxwell> In any case, this is #bitcoin-dev. Not a place for philosophical zombies to debate altcoins much less hypothetical altcoins.
 583 2013-05-15 06:07:42 <Arnavion> Sorry
 584 2013-05-15 06:08:27 <pZombie> so let me ask about bitcoin then
 585 2013-05-15 06:08:43 <pZombie> do developers have any power over the blockchain other than via a new client?
 586 2013-05-15 06:09:02 <pZombie> do developers have any power over bitcoin other than what a normal user has?
 587 2013-05-15 06:09:07 <gmaxwell> 22:35 < cjd> (re why bitcoin doesn't do anything like this)
 588 2013-05-15 06:09:08 <jchp> they can also make announcements for bitcoin-qt clients, that's about it
 589 2013-05-15 06:09:17 <copumpkin> only a couple of people have the keys to that
 590 2013-05-15 06:09:47 <copumpkin> handful?
 591 2013-05-15 06:10:00 <pZombie> copumpkin what keys are you talking about, related to bitcoin?
 592 2013-05-15 06:10:14 <gmaxwell> pZombie: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Alerts
 593 2013-05-15 06:10:24 <copumpkin> signing keys for sending notices that the standard client will display in the status bar
 594 2013-05-15 06:11:36 <pZombie> i see
 595 2013-05-15 06:11:51 <pZombie> so you can warn people via alerts, but they can choose to ignore them if they want to
 596 2013-05-15 06:12:00 <pZombie> that sounds non-invasive enough to me
 597 2013-05-15 06:12:09 <gmaxwell> most people don't even see them.
 598 2013-05-15 06:12:13 DoctorBTC is now known as DoctorBTCzzz
 599 2013-05-15 06:13:50 TD_ has joined
 600 2013-05-15 06:15:34 <MC1984_> when is the new rules gonna be enforced today
 601 2013-05-15 06:15:43 <MC1984_> some GMT time i assume
 602 2013-05-15 06:17:29 phma has joined
 603 2013-05-15 06:17:37 <gmaxwell> MC1984_: in negative five hours and 5 minutes.
 604 2013-05-15 06:17:57 <MC1984_> noon then?
 605 2013-05-15 06:18:01 <gmaxwell> _negative_
 606 2013-05-15 06:18:20 <MC1984_> wot, i missed it
 607 2013-05-15 06:18:48 <MC1984_> nothing interesting happened
 608 2013-05-15 06:18:53 knotwork_ is now known as knotwork
 609 2013-05-15 06:18:54 <MC1984_> i-i suppose thats a good thing
 610 2013-05-15 06:21:20 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 611 2013-05-15 06:22:17 <MC1984_> well i suppose were full stream ahead for megabyte blocks now
 612 2013-05-15 06:22:23 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 613 2013-05-15 06:22:28 <MC1984_> drive space 2.60gb and falling
 614 2013-05-15 06:23:56 <MC1984_> on the plus side bitcoind memory usage, whilst still bouncing around quite a bit, indeed doesnt seem to be much tied to connection count any more
 615 2013-05-15 06:24:45 akl_ is now known as akl
 616 2013-05-15 06:25:08 <gmaxwell> MC1984_: right, it shouldn't be
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 620 2013-05-15 06:26:20 <MC1984_> you heading to the conference?
 621 2013-05-15 06:27:21 <gmaxwell> for some definition of heading.
 622 2013-05-15 06:30:29 <JDuke128> hello , my simple app i ve done on bitcoinj : http://pastie.org/7909577 this always returns "0 BTC" although i ve bit coins in wallet.Another problem is …  although i send btc to my wallet from other app , onCoinsReceived is called but inside that , onConfidenceChanged is never called.Why this can be happen on this code?
 623 2013-05-15 06:30:41 <JDuke128> maybe its because of SPVBlockChain ?
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 628 2013-05-15 06:34:23 <gmaxwell> no one who knows much about bitcoinj is awake and active now.
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 631 2013-05-15 06:37:02 <MC1984_> so what is the next big project/improvement initiative within the bitcoin project?
 632 2013-05-15 06:37:14 <MC1984_> wallet work?
 633 2013-05-15 06:38:07 <MC1984_> i recall something about someone looking at the networking layer
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 648 2013-05-15 06:58:58 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I went ahead and made a Base58Check replacement anyway, for the fun of it
 649 2013-05-15 07:00:58 <Luke-Jr> before I forget, c32d = Clear (base) 32 data <.<
 650 2013-05-15 07:03:26 <gmaxwell> I see! If you're going to use 2^n base then you really should make the checkvalue as reed solomon error correcting code. It will give more robustness to common typos and you could reasonable correct minor errors (or at least allow a fixer tool to do so).  You could still use a cryptographic hash for your whitening. Thats a clever idea.
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 652 2013-05-15 07:04:35 <Luke-Jr> whitening?
 653 2013-05-15 07:04:44 <gmaxwell> The way I'd use a cryptographic hash to whiten without having a seperate checksum is to use an unbalanced feistel structure.
 654 2013-05-15 07:04:57 <gmaxwell> I'm calling the scrambling that keeps people from making mutants 'whitening'.
 655 2013-05-15 07:05:06 <gmaxwell> (because it makes the data look random)
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 659 2013-05-15 07:09:48 <Luke-Jr> hmm, using a hash is good, but I don't follow how it helps with error correction or checksums. Perhaps I need to read up on the reed solomon thing
 660 2013-05-15 07:11:06 TD_ has quit (Quit: TD_)
 661 2013-05-15 07:12:44 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: Like this: you encode in two layers.  First you have your binary data.  Then you use a hash with an unbalanced feistel structure to whiten it. Leaving you with the same amount of data but in noise form.
 662 2013-05-15 07:13:02 <gmaxwell> Then you encode it using base 32... and compute a couple extra digits using an RS code.
 663 2013-05-15 07:13:38 <gmaxwell> (more digits, more protection—)
 664 2013-05-15 07:14:09 Thepok has joined
 665 2013-05-15 07:18:21 <gmaxwell> The thing about RS codes is that they have nicely predictable strength. Two extra digits lets you detect and correct any single digit error. Four extra digits let you detect and correct any two digit error.
 666 2013-05-15 07:18:49 Neozonz has joined
 667 2013-05-15 07:19:19 <gmaxwell> (you can also detect some longer errors too— but you get _all_ the near misses, unlike the 'checksum' in bitcoin where you can get one digit off and still have a good checksum)
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 699 2013-05-15 08:01:11 <LLckfan> Can some1 tell me why in Google Chrome it sometimes will not go to the address I type in but if I click a link somewhere it goes to that address without an issue
 700 2013-05-15 08:01:42 Blackreign has joined
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 702 2013-05-15 08:13:51 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: did you get an ASICMiner Emerald?
 703 2013-05-15 08:14:12 chax has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 704 2013-05-15 08:14:29 <gmaxwell> I did not. I'd missed that they were available now.
 705 2013-05-15 08:15:17 <MC1984_> is that the blade
 706 2013-05-15 08:15:24 <Luke-Jr> the Emerald batch were promos sent to various people
 707 2013-05-15 08:15:26 <Luke-Jr> MC1984_: no, USB
 708 2013-05-15 08:15:40 <MC1984_> oh that
 709 2013-05-15 08:15:43 <MC1984_> seemed overpriced
 710 2013-05-15 08:16:00 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: without external power, it fails; I let it go for a few hours that way, and it seems to have recovered with a fan back on it
 711 2013-05-15 08:16:08 <Luke-Jr> (it gets too hot to touch)
 712 2013-05-15 08:17:02 <MC1984_> i wouldnt plug one of those things into my usb any way
 713 2013-05-15 08:17:09 <MC1984_> its a bit over spec iirc
 714 2013-05-15 08:17:28 <Luke-Jr> MC1984_: I have a powered hub for these
 715 2013-05-15 08:17:52 <MC1984_> still over spec
 716 2013-05-15 08:17:55 <BlueMatt> any split fireworks yet?
 717 2013-05-15 08:17:55 <Luke-Jr> …
 718 2013-05-15 08:18:00 <Luke-Jr> MC1984_: so is Raspi.
 719 2013-05-15 08:18:37 AusBitBank has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 720 2013-05-15 08:18:38 <MC1984_> whats raspi got to do with it
 721 2013-05-15 08:18:46 <MC1984_> and i heard they had rev a problems too
 722 2013-05-15 08:19:16 <MC1984_> BlueMatt everything is annoyingly normal
 723 2013-05-15 08:19:30 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 724 2013-05-15 08:19:46 <Luke-Jr> MC1984_: basically the worst that happens is the device doesn't work
 725 2013-05-15 08:19:57 <MC1984_> i dont even know if anyone has mined a fork block yet anyway, the fork wont happen until they do afaik
 726 2013-05-15 08:19:58 <Luke-Jr> can't hurt the host just from power draw, AFAIK
 727 2013-05-15 08:20:21 ielo has joined
 728 2013-05-15 08:20:39 <MC1984_> ive heard of internal fuses on the usb bus popping with bad peripherals
 729 2013-05-15 08:20:41 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: pretty sure you could blow an underprotected usb controller that way.
 730 2013-05-15 08:20:49 <MC1984_> id risk it with a hub
 731 2013-05-15 08:21:15 <gmaxwell> not likely, anything sane is likely way over designed.
 732 2013-05-15 08:22:51 jurov has joined
 733 2013-05-15 08:23:01 <MC1984_> Luke-Jr how does it hash though?
 734 2013-05-15 08:23:12 ralphtheninja has joined
 735 2013-05-15 08:23:17 <Luke-Jr>  ICA 1:                | 335.8/338.3/382.3Mh/s | A: 91 R:0 HW: 0 U: 5.34/m
 736 2013-05-15 08:23:38 <MC1984_> not bad for 600mw
 737 2013-05-15 08:24:15 AusBitBank has joined
 738 2013-05-15 08:24:15 <MC1984_> i like the idea of those little usb stick miners
 739 2013-05-15 08:24:35 <Luke-Jr> tbh, I thought the price was 1.99 BTC total for all 300 bulk units when I first read the announcement <.<
 740 2013-05-15 08:24:50 <Luke-Jr> was going to try to sell a bunch to distribute at the conference XD
 741 2013-05-15 08:24:53 <MC1984_> id like to see them air dropped by UN planes over countries under oppresive finacial regimes, like the UK and parts of europe
 742 2013-05-15 08:24:53 <gmaxwell> MC1984_: I do too... but .. not realistically priced yet.
 743 2013-05-15 08:24:57 <Luke-Jr> for 0.01 BTC each
 744 2013-05-15 08:25:20 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I think the heat is a bigger problem. Hope their production run (Sapphire) is better
 745 2013-05-15 08:25:35 <Luke-Jr> they slowed the clocks down (for power specs) and attached a heatsink
 746 2013-05-15 08:25:38 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: eh, they should just down clock it.
 747 2013-05-15 08:25:39 <gmaxwell> yea.
 748 2013-05-15 08:26:07 <Luke-Jr> dunno how much of a difference that can make
 749 2013-05-15 08:26:13 <MC1984_> gmaxwell the prices for those things are hilarious, asicminer is just trying to get rid of some of its stock of chips i think
 750 2013-05-15 08:26:28 <Luke-Jr> MC1984_: I think they're pricing based on their auctions
 751 2013-05-15 08:26:34 <Luke-Jr> the 10 Gh/s units went for 60+ BTC each
 752 2013-05-15 08:26:47 <MC1984_> i know the market is bearing it, so be it
 753 2013-05-15 08:26:50 <MC1984_> still hilarious
 754 2013-05-15 08:26:51 <gmaxwell> people are paying too much...
 755 2013-05-15 08:26:53 <Luke-Jr> basically, their prices are competitive vs FPGA/GPUs
 756 2013-05-15 08:27:14 <Luke-Jr> once trust in BFL is restored, they'll have to drop the price I bet
 757 2013-05-15 08:27:17 <gmaxwell> I mean, asicminer themselves are talking about 200TH/s online in not too long.
 758 2013-05-15 08:27:21 <Luke-Jr> or one of these 28nm vendors..
 759 2013-05-15 08:27:49 <MC1984_> bfl need to pull thier socks up so we can get some competition
 760 2013-05-15 08:28:35 <gmaxwell> well not just that, so that the difficulty catches up to the preorders.
 761 2013-05-15 08:28:42 <gmaxwell> this long lag is not good.
 762 2013-05-15 08:28:58 <gmaxwell> It means people are paying waaaaay too much for mining hardware.
 763 2013-05-15 08:29:06 <Luke-Jr> no kidding, I'm not going to make nearly as much as I was planning on XD
 764 2013-05-15 08:29:17 <MC1984_> deliberate?
 765 2013-05-15 08:29:33 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: on the other hand, they're going to have to sell them close to at-cost later, so they might as well make their profits now
 766 2013-05-15 08:29:43 <gmaxwell> MC1984_: I've seen no reason to think that.
 767 2013-05-15 08:30:12 <MC1984_> rational self interest?
 768 2013-05-15 08:30:13 <gmaxwell> oh, I'm happy for the hardware vendors. But I'm not happy for people who are going to make a lot less than expected and will be mad at bitcoin as a result.
 769 2013-05-15 08:30:50 <MC1984_> the people who consistently made out in klondike where the ones selling equipment and other services after all.....
 770 2013-05-15 08:31:00 <gmaxwell> when I bought my avalon I would have been perfectly happy if they only broke even, but thats me.
 771 2013-05-15 08:31:24 fishfish has joined
 772 2013-05-15 08:31:29 <warren> Hmm, building against my system's bdb is probably a bad idea because it can be incompatible with wallet.dat created by the static bdb?
 773 2013-05-15 08:31:41 <gmaxwell> warren: depends on what your system's bdb is.
 774 2013-05-15 08:31:43 ThomasV has joined
 775 2013-05-15 08:31:48 <warren> gmaxwell: Fedora 18
 776 2013-05-15 08:31:56 phpwn has joined
 777 2013-05-15 08:31:59 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: well, BFL *is* telling people who sound clueless that they need to do more research before they order
 778 2013-05-15 08:32:10 <gmaxwell> Fedora 17 ships 4.8 and fully compatable.
 779 2013-05-15 08:33:24 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: yea, I'm not aware of anyone doing anything accutely wrong, and the information is all out there.
 780 2013-05-15 08:33:26 <Luke-Jr> when I ordered BFL, I was only expecting to break even necessarily - but with the added risk of the delays, I'll be disappointed if I don't make a bit of profit at least
 781 2013-05-15 08:33:39 <MC1984_> Luke-Jr how did BFL go from first to last to market, behind more than one other vendor
 782 2013-05-15 08:33:45 <MC1984_> witht he headstart they had
 783 2013-05-15 08:34:12 <Luke-Jr> nfc
 784 2013-05-15 08:34:13 <gmaxwell> But at the end of the day, if the outcome pisses off a bunch of people at bitcoin that stinks even if they only have themselves to blame.
 785 2013-05-15 08:34:37 <MC1984_> nfc?
 786 2013-05-15 08:34:51 <warren> I probably shouldn't expect /lib64/libdb_cxx-5.3.so to be compatible?
 787 2013-05-15 08:34:59 <MC1984_> gmaxwell yeah but what are they gonna do then, take thier miners offline?
 788 2013-05-15 08:35:07 <MC1984_> theyll probably stick with it
 789 2013-05-15 08:35:08 <gmaxwell> warren: indeed, it's not.
 790 2013-05-15 08:35:14 <Luke-Jr> MC1984_: no fun clue
 791 2013-05-15 08:35:15 <warren> ah, that explains all my problems
 792 2013-05-15 08:35:34 <MC1984_> oh
 793 2013-05-15 08:35:35 <warren> well, the non-drug related problems
 794 2013-05-15 08:35:53 <Luke-Jr> …
 795 2013-05-15 08:35:59 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: he had surgery recently
 796 2013-05-15 08:36:19 <Luke-Jr> i c
 797 2013-05-15 08:36:29 <gmaxwell> MC1984_: no idea.
 798 2013-05-15 08:36:58 <gmaxwell> MC1984_: when the first run to $30 bubble popped a lot of people stopped mining, sold gpu farms at a loss, etc.
 799 2013-05-15 08:37:25 <warren> gmaxwell: wouldn't it be wise for bitcoin source to demand a particular major version of key libraries, or ship it internally?  I had no warning here.
 800 2013-05-15 08:37:28 <MC1984_> only people without the prescence of mind to see bitcoin as a neutral substrate and not an entity in itself would get angry at bitcoin
 801 2013-05-15 08:38:04 <gmaxwell> warren: yes. And we do now for leveldb. Not doing that for bdb was a mistaken in a bunch of ways. Eventually we'll be off bdb completely.
 802 2013-05-15 08:38:22 <warren> ok.  good.
 803 2013-05-15 08:38:36 <warren> meanwhile, should I just bite the bullet and install an ubuntu chroot...
 804 2013-05-15 08:38:45 <MC1984_> i kinda prefer that mining is not handled by fly by night types who think its a sue way to getrichkwik
 805 2013-05-15 08:39:02 <MC1984_> they can bugger off as far as im concerned
 806 2013-05-15 08:39:07 <warren> MC1984_: I dunno, normally you like fools with money.
 807 2013-05-15 08:39:36 <MC1984_> ?
 808 2013-05-15 08:40:04 <gmaxwell> MC1984_: but would you prefer them to be controlled by people who are crazy and keep sinking money into things that are losing money?  People who have so much they don't care?  Large mining interest that buy up indivigual's sales a loss for cheap and build huge farms?
 809 2013-05-15 08:40:45 <MC1984_> nope
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 811 2013-05-15 08:41:10 <gmaxwell> well, then you want joe-sixpack with his prissy feelings of hurt when he doesn't get the big windfall he was expecting.
 812 2013-05-15 08:41:18 <warren> In the long-run it requires a mass market of mass produced, competitive miners, exploiting their individual greed at a global scale, in order to ensure the security of the global bitcoin network.
 813 2013-05-15 08:42:18 <warren> gmaxwell: any other lib I should build my own paticular version for safety reasons?
 814 2013-05-15 08:42:27 <MC1984_> id rather a joe sixpack who understands that his tiny mining op is keeping the whole system honest, along with everyone else
 815 2013-05-15 08:42:52 <gmaxwell> warren: so far openssl has been fairly stable ::knock on wood:: but it's the obvious other risk spot
 816 2013-05-15 08:43:00 <MC1984_> even if its costs him a few dollars a month, what price is that for a monetary system that cant blow up like in 2008
 817 2013-05-15 08:43:02 <warren> well, except most miners hand over their hashing to a central authority
 818 2013-05-15 08:43:59 <MC1984_> is it true asicm is gonna bring online 200th?
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 820 2013-05-15 08:44:57 <gmaxwell> MC1984_:
 821 2013-05-15 08:45:01 <gmaxwell> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=197545.msg2074784#msg2074784
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 823 2013-05-15 08:45:22 <warren> On the topic of BFL.  I made a simple model predicting future hash rates based upon all known market players and announced production runs, making very pessimistic optimistics for each player.  My BFL orders were from March and April 2013.  Under the most pessimistic model, I only break-even if I get my BFL before August.
 824 2013-05-15 08:45:57 <gmaxwell> pessimistic is bad for you or good for you?
 825 2013-05-15 08:46:02 <warren> bad for me
 826 2013-05-15 08:46:11 <warren> Electricity here is $0.2474/kwh, so it probably wasn't wise for me to buy it.
 827 2013-05-15 08:46:15 <gmaxwell> thats good!
 828 2013-05-15 08:46:22 <MC1984_> thats irrational as fuck, i wonder how those silicon vally VCs will feel knowing bitcoin is run by china
 829 2013-05-15 08:46:40 davout has joined
 830 2013-05-15 08:46:42 <warren> There's ChinaCoin !
 831 2013-05-15 08:46:49 <gmaxwell> not your price, but that in your bad models you can still break even if you recieve by august. Thats better than I would have guessed.
 832 2013-05-15 08:46:50 <MC1984_> i thought they were auctioning shit because they already had 40% of the netowrk
 833 2013-05-15 08:47:12 * warren checks model
 834 2013-05-15 08:47:17 <MC1984_> the one thing i forgot in this madness, greed itself is irrational
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 837 2013-05-15 08:48:17 <warren> part of my problem is electricity is too expensive.  when i made orders I probably hsould have had them directly sent to friends in states with cheap power.
 838 2013-05-15 08:49:14 <Luke-Jr> I know one guy who's worried he won't be able to get enough power delivered for his rigs
 839 2013-05-15 08:49:20 <Luke-Jr> and he owns an apartment complex
 840 2013-05-15 08:49:29 paybitcoin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 841 2013-05-15 08:49:41 <Luke-Jr> (so he presumably has more access to power than the average person)
 842 2013-05-15 08:49:47 <warren> yeah, BFL is much more power than advertised
 843 2013-05-15 08:49:51 SteveDekorte has quit (Quit: SteveDekorte)
 844 2013-05-15 08:49:53 <warren> 60W -> 300W?
 845 2013-05-15 08:50:41 fishfish has quit (Quit: Bye!)
 846 2013-05-15 08:51:16 <warren> gmaxwell: under my model, if I begin mining August 1st, I could break-even at $75/BTC roughly around the time power cost == mining income.
 847 2013-05-15 08:52:19 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
 848 2013-05-15 08:52:22 <warren> Since power is too expensive here, I'm considering selling some of my pre-orders.   the remaining units I can handle mining in one house.
 849 2013-05-15 08:52:57 <warren> Hard to find buyers that I can trust though.
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 852 2013-05-15 08:56:41 <gmaxwell> power is reasonably cheap in alaska, and I bet the waste heat is useful.
 853 2013-05-15 08:56:54 <warren> is power reliable there?
 854 2013-05-15 08:57:05 <warren> power bandwidth
 855 2013-05-15 08:57:10 <warren> latency
 856 2013-05-15 08:57:38 <warren> I wonder if a swamp cooler would be bad for cooling miners.
 857 2013-05-15 08:57:46 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 858 2013-05-15 08:57:58 BurtyB has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 859 2013-05-15 08:58:40 <MC1984_> you could probably power a miner in alaska with a stirling engine with one side in the open and the other off the heat of your hands......
 860 2013-05-15 08:59:59 <warren> Yeah.  I need to sell some of my units.  Power just costs too much on this isolated island.
 861 2013-05-15 09:00:35 <MC1984_> island?
 862 2013-05-15 09:00:41 <warren> I see people selling them on eBay.  People are paid in Paypal for things the ship months later.  I wonder if Paypal can take-back the money months later, screwing over the seller.
 863 2013-05-15 09:00:46 <warren> MC1984_: Hawaii
 864 2013-05-15 09:01:03 lupine has joined
 865 2013-05-15 09:01:03 <MC1984_> you have internet in hawaii?
 866 2013-05-15 09:01:03 <gmaxwell> warren: answer to that in paypal is always yes.
 867 2013-05-15 09:01:26 xire has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 868 2013-05-15 09:01:36 <gmaxwell> MC1984_: yes, he gets it via the computer he has to type the code into every 108 minutes.
 869 2013-05-15 09:01:56 <MC1984_> lol
 870 2013-05-15 09:02:06 saulimus has joined
 871 2013-05-15 09:02:20 <warren> That computer hashes at 97TH/s, but there's no network access available. too bad huh.
 872 2013-05-15 09:02:41 ralphtheninja has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
 873 2013-05-15 09:03:36 ralphtheninja has joined
 874 2013-05-15 09:03:42 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I've successfully defended a PayPal dispute over services I sold to someon
 875 2013-05-15 09:03:50 <Luke-Jr> so not always
 876 2013-05-15 09:04:33 <warren> I supposeI could list them on ebay and accept payment in Bitcoin.
 877 2013-05-15 09:04:49 <warren> I'm surprised ebay allows all the bitcoin-related sales there at all.
 878 2013-05-15 09:05:28 <pZombie> what happens if you take the bitcoin and do not deliver?
 879 2013-05-15 09:05:34 <pZombie> is the buyer protected?
 880 2013-05-15 09:06:05 <pZombie> how would paypal even know someone sent bitcoins?
 881 2013-05-15 09:06:18 <MC1984_> lasy i heard doing bitcoin on ebay = account suspened
 882 2013-05-15 09:06:44 <MC1984_> of course i live where paypal is mandated on ebay
 883 2013-05-15 09:06:49 <Luke-Jr> pZombie: PayPal = eBay
 884 2013-05-15 09:08:28 Chamunks has joined
 885 2013-05-15 09:08:37 LLckfan has quit ()
 886 2013-05-15 09:08:37 taha has joined
 887 2013-05-15 09:09:27 <Chamunks> is there a decent bit of code available in the bitcoin-o-sphere that will let me recieve payments in bitcoin at the current exchange rate or whichever is best reccomended.
 888 2013-05-15 09:09:36 PrinceCortex has left ("Leaving")
 889 2013-05-15 09:09:56 <warren> Paypal is mandated on ebay?  I see "Paypal or Bitcoin" or "in-person" pay options on many ebay listings
 890 2013-05-15 09:10:55 <warren> Luke-Jr: hey, didn't you have a solution for gitian builds from Gentoo?  how does yours work?
 891 2013-05-15 09:10:58 <warren> chroot?
 892 2013-05-15 09:11:04 <MC1984_> in the UK, its paypal or cash on collection
 893 2013-05-15 09:11:17 <MC1984_> and you must list pickup only or cash to become an option
 894 2013-05-15 09:11:22 <Luke-Jr> Chamunks: afaik that's all proprietary
 895 2013-05-15 09:11:32 <Luke-Jr> warren: I ported gitian to Gentoo.
 896 2013-05-15 09:11:37 <Luke-Jr> warren: before that, I did KVM
 897 2013-05-15 09:11:53 <Chamunks> Luke-Jr, I'm okay with the idea of a widget that directs to a wallet
 898 2013-05-15 09:12:05 <Chamunks> then when the transaction is verified then send the confirmation action.
 899 2013-05-15 09:12:12 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 900 2013-05-15 09:12:17 <Chamunks> I cant imagine this sort of stuff needs to be overly complex.
 901 2013-05-15 09:12:22 <Luke-Jr> Chamunks: if you don't mind a service, I'd suggest BitPay
 902 2013-05-15 09:12:51 <Chamunks> well I like to avoid any extra middlemen
 903 2013-05-15 09:13:00 <Chamunks> but its not mandatory
 904 2013-05-15 09:13:19 <warren> middle men sometimes do things faster and safer than you can
 905 2013-05-15 09:13:28 rdymac has joined
 906 2013-05-15 09:13:51 <pZombie> middle men also scam often
 907 2013-05-15 09:13:56 <Chamunks> lol maybe.
 908 2013-05-15 09:14:17 <Chamunks> I think something like this if opensourced as even like some kind of php widget of some kind
 909 2013-05-15 09:14:21 swulf--1 has joined
 910 2013-05-15 09:14:29 <Chamunks> would help adoption
 911 2013-05-15 09:15:35 <warren> My friend is building a invoicing and payment service, similar to Bitpay, with lower rates.  It is only for people who want to accept the coins without automatic exchange to fiat.  Supports multiple alt coins.
 912 2013-05-15 09:16:36 <Chamunks> neat
 913 2013-05-15 09:16:48 <Chamunks> I wonder how worth anything the other alt coins really are.
 914 2013-05-15 09:16:59 <warren> most of them are scams
 915 2013-05-15 09:17:20 <Chamunks> some guy I know is flipping his wig over litecoin
 916 2013-05-15 09:17:37 <Chamunks> i just facedesked
 917 2013-05-15 09:17:51 swulf-- has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 918 2013-05-15 09:18:00 <tonikt> Hi guys. My bitcoind connected to testnet3 got stuck at an obviously orphaned block 0000000009f968295ca48b2a6b63906ae43418729a2a46b45d0c5ada4054bf82, height 77459 - is it ever going to recover? Because it's been stuck like this for like 10 minutes already
 919 2013-05-15 09:18:51 <warren> one of the recent alt coins was added to exchanges days after creation, and a miner bubble was creating ~4BTC of exchange value every minute for almost a week.  When difficullty hit crazy heights, most miners quit and the coin got stuck.  Target 2.5 minute confirmations dragged out to hours.
 920 2013-05-15 09:19:35 <warren> currently it's still stuck, with 25 days estimated until the next difficulty drop
 921 2013-05-15 09:19:42 <Luke-Jr> tonikt: "obviously orphaned"?
 922 2013-05-15 09:19:55 mE\Ta has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 923 2013-05-15 09:20:04 <tonikt> Luke-Jr: yes - because I cannot find it here: http://blockexplorer.com/testnet
 924 2013-05-15 09:20:15 <tonikt> but I have it in my chain
 925 2013-05-15 09:20:18 <Luke-Jr> tonikt: why do you assume it isn't BBE that's stuck?
 926 2013-05-15 09:20:35 <Luke-Jr> oh, it has far more blocks
 927 2013-05-15 09:20:39 mE\Ta has joined
 928 2013-05-15 09:20:39 <Luke-Jr> tonikt: check your debug.log
 929 2013-05-15 09:20:46 <tonikt> oh no, wait - sorry. I can find it there!
 930 2013-05-15 09:20:53 <Luke-Jr> ok then :P
 931 2013-05-15 09:21:17 <tonikt> ... but it is still stuck at that block
 932 2013-05-15 09:21:32 <tonikt> ..as for the log, let me put it on some pastebin
 933 2013-05-15 09:21:33 <gmaxwell> tonikt: you'll continue syncing with the next block on the network most likely.
 934 2013-05-15 09:21:41 <gmaxwell> unless it's actually rejecting the next block.
 935 2013-05-15 09:22:30 <tonikt> the log basicaly goes like this: http://pastebin.com/pLWt6uQ4
 936 2013-05-15 09:22:50 <tonikt> .. and it does not move past 77459
 937 2013-05-15 09:22:53 <gmaxwell> tonikt: need the area above it.
 938 2013-05-15 09:23:12 <gmaxwell> find the first instance of InvalidChainFound and post that
 939 2013-05-15 09:24:05 sipa1024 has joined
 940 2013-05-15 09:24:12 <Luke-Jr> sipa1024: O.o
 941 2013-05-15 09:24:20 sipa1024 is now known as sipa
 942 2013-05-15 09:24:27 <sipa> Luke-Jr: ?
 943 2013-05-15 09:24:36 <Luke-Jr> 1024? :P
 944 2013-05-15 09:24:38 <MC1984_> warren lol altcoins
 945 2013-05-15 09:24:49 <sipa> no fork happened yet?
 946 2013-05-15 09:24:51 <gmaxwell> sipa: GOOD. your shift.
 947 2013-05-15 09:24:55 <gmaxwell> goodnight.
 948 2013-05-15 09:24:56 <Luke-Jr> sipa: not yet
 949 2013-05-15 09:24:57 <Luke-Jr> lol
 950 2013-05-15 09:24:59 <Luke-Jr> night gmaxwell
 951 2013-05-15 09:25:01 <sipa> haha, night gmaxwell :D
 952 2013-05-15 09:25:25 <Luke-Jr> sipa: he stayed up waiting for you ;)
 953 2013-05-15 09:25:25 <warren> Have pool servers increased the soft limits to increase the odds of the fork?
 954 2013-05-15 09:25:27 <MC1984_> lol you were talking shifts
 955 2013-05-15 09:25:49 <sipa> warren: i think they're intentionally keeping them low
 956 2013-05-15 09:26:02 rdymac has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 957 2013-05-15 09:26:14 <warren> sipa: fee competition?
 958 2013-05-15 09:26:16 Faradayy has joined
 959 2013-05-15 09:26:42 <MC1984_> i would have thought someone would have wanted to mine a deathblock asap
 960 2013-05-15 09:26:50 <tonikt> gmaxwell: http://pastebin.com/FTwJtrE1
 961 2013-05-15 09:26:52 <sipa> with blocks below 700 kB it's very unlikely to create a forking block
 962 2013-05-15 09:27:02 <warren> well, it isn' cheap to create an artificial death block
 963 2013-05-15 09:27:11 <MC1984_> otherwise the whole thing is an unknown quantity going forward. Just get it over with and see if anything breaks now
 964 2013-05-15 09:27:42 nus-- has joined
 965 2013-05-15 09:27:57 <MC1984_> warren whats the problem? there are no soft limits now right. Just mine a big block
 966 2013-05-15 09:28:01 nus- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 967 2013-05-15 09:28:17 rdymac has joined
 968 2013-05-15 09:28:29 <warren> MC1984_: no.  the soft limits are separate from the limit that was enforced until May 15th
 969 2013-05-15 09:29:10 <MC1984_> i thought thee was one at 250kb and 500kb but theyre now lifted
 970 2013-05-15 09:29:32 <MC1984_> and we should be go for megabyte blocks
 971 2013-05-15 09:29:46 <sipa> the default soft limit is 250 kb
 972 2013-05-15 09:29:57 <sipa> until may15, you couldn't set the soft limit above 500 kB
 973 2013-05-15 09:30:12 <sipa> and until may15 there was a hard rule that blocks could not affect more than 4500 transactions
 974 2013-05-15 09:30:42 <MC1984_> so miners are choosing to keep the limits
 975 2013-05-15 09:31:51 <tonikt> so can I fix it somehow, guys - or do I need to re-fetch the whole chain?
 976 2013-05-15 09:31:54 <MC1984_> dammit, just mine the block, proves nothing cathes fire and get it over with
 977 2013-05-15 09:32:10 viperhr has joined
 978 2013-05-15 09:33:29 zz_highPriestLOL is now known as highPriestLOL
 979 2013-05-15 09:34:00 mE\Ta has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 980 2013-05-15 09:34:20 mE\Ta has joined
 981 2013-05-15 09:37:46 CustomWebAppsCo1 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 982 2013-05-15 09:38:46 RazielZ has joined
 983 2013-05-15 09:40:23 <Luke-Jr> MC1984_: there, Eligius is now reconfigured to try to include up to 900 kB
 984 2013-05-15 09:40:36 <Luke-Jr> currently at 14 kB
 985 2013-05-15 09:40:49 <Luke-Jr> too bad mempool doesn't survive restarts
 986 2013-05-15 09:40:52 <MC1984_> nice!
 987 2013-05-15 09:41:24 <MC1984_> why 900 though? why not 1000
 988 2013-05-15 09:41:30 <MC1984_> or 1024 or whatever
 989 2013-05-15 09:41:30 <Luke-Jr> just to be safe
 990 2013-05-15 09:41:35 <MC1984_> ok
 991 2013-05-15 09:42:48 phpwn has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 992 2013-05-15 09:43:22 rdymac has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 994 2013-05-15 09:44:29 dansmith_btc has joined
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 996 2013-05-15 09:45:58 <Luke-Jr> I suppose if someone wants to clean up p2pool spam, this would be a good time..
 997 2013-05-15 09:46:38 <kinlo> what's the p2pool spam?  Their payouts?
 998 2013-05-15 09:46:44 RazielZ has joined
 999 2013-05-15 09:50:20 darenthis has joined
1000 2013-05-15 09:51:52 CustomWebAppsCom has joined
1001 2013-05-15 09:53:23 rdymac has joined
1002 2013-05-15 09:54:31 sud3n has joined
1003 2013-05-15 09:56:23 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: the extra dummy output on the end
1004 2013-05-15 09:57:06 <Luke-Jr> almost 500 kB now
1005 2013-05-15 09:57:59 hnz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1006 2013-05-15 10:00:21 AtashiCon has quit (Quit: AtashiCon)
1007 2013-05-15 10:02:36 chax has joined
1008 2013-05-15 10:03:08 hnz has joined
1009 2013-05-15 10:03:14 rdymac has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1010 2013-05-15 10:04:09 <MC1984_> whats the purpose of that
1011 2013-05-15 10:04:20 <Luke-Jr> MC1984_: ?
1012 2013-05-15 10:04:34 <MC1984_> <Luke-Jr> kinlo: the extra dummy output on the end
1013 2013-05-15 10:04:45 <Luke-Jr> MC1984_: it's for merged mining
1014 2013-05-15 10:04:53 <Luke-Jr> p2pool is technically an altchain
1015 2013-05-15 10:05:05 Neozonz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1016 2013-05-15 10:05:30 <MC1984_> but merge mining is good
1017 2013-05-15 10:05:37 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1018 2013-05-15 10:06:00 <kinlo> Luke-Jr: ask forrest to move that to the coinbase...
1019 2013-05-15 10:06:20 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: no, it's best where it is
1020 2013-05-15 10:06:24 <Luke-Jr> the problem is that it's spendable
1021 2013-05-15 10:06:45 <kinlo> so it is in the index?
1022 2013-05-15 10:06:51 <kinlo> what's the script / how to spend it?
1023 2013-05-15 10:07:02 chax has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1024 2013-05-15 10:07:03 <kinlo> and wasn't the value 0 ?
1025 2013-05-15 10:07:12 <kinlo> you can filter out everything with value 0
1026 2013-05-15 10:07:57 <sipa> no, you can't
1027 2013-05-15 10:08:07 <sipa> it can legally be spent
1028 2013-05-15 10:08:09 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: OP_1 should spend it
1029 2013-05-15 10:08:21 pxx_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1030 2013-05-15 10:08:46 <Luke-Jr> just need to put on a fee and get it to Eligius <.<
1031 2013-05-15 10:09:15 <kinlo> the value is 0 right?
1032 2013-05-15 10:09:31 AtashiCon has joined
1033 2013-05-15 10:12:47 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: yes
1034 2013-05-15 10:13:24 <kinlo> might be something to add later on, to make outputs of 0 invalid, or to make them unspendable
1035 2013-05-15 10:13:30 <kinlo> or just someone that spends them all
1036 2013-05-15 10:13:50 <kinlo> if I can spend them, I could create a transaction that spends them all and mine that in a block
1037 2013-05-15 10:14:25 ikbenwouter has joined
1038 2013-05-15 10:20:14 <nsh> ;;forkcount
1039 2013-05-15 10:20:14 <gribble> Error: "forkcount" is not a valid command.
1040 2013-05-15 10:20:37 drizztbsd has joined
1041 2013-05-15 10:20:37 drizztbsd has quit (Changing host)
1042 2013-05-15 10:20:37 drizztbsd has joined
1043 2013-05-15 10:21:07 jtimon has joined
1044 2013-05-15 10:21:22 AlbertTuring has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
1045 2013-05-15 10:21:48 rdymac has joined
1046 2013-05-15 10:21:48 rdymac has quit (Changing host)
1047 2013-05-15 10:21:48 rdymac has joined
1048 2013-05-15 10:22:25 <ikbenwouter> nsh looking for this?
1049 2013-05-15 10:22:27 <ikbenwouter> <Orbitran> Blockheight: 0.6.3 - 236290 || 0.7.2 - 236290 || 0.8 - 236290 || bexplr - 236290 || bcinfo - 236290 ||
1050 2013-05-15 10:22:27 <ikbenwouter> <Orbitran> Blockhash  : 0.6.3 - 777ce || 0.7.2 - 777ce || 0.8 - 777ce || bexplr - 777ce || bcinfo - 777ce ||
1051 2013-05-15 10:22:27 <ikbenwouter> <Orbitran> 236290 -> 0.6.3 - 777ce || 0.7.2 - 777ce || 0.8 - 777ce || bexplr - 777ce || bcinfo - 777ce ||
1052 2013-05-15 10:23:51 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: you can
1053 2013-05-15 10:24:10 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1054 2013-05-15 10:24:13 panzerfaust is now known as panzer
1055 2013-05-15 10:24:20 <Luke-Jr> ikbenwouter: where is that?
1056 2013-05-15 10:24:31 <nsh> ikbenwouter, mebbes
1057 2013-05-15 10:24:35 <sipa> #bitcoin-nl
1058 2013-05-15 10:24:50 <ikbenwouter> Luke-Jr, bot in #bitcoin-nl you can spam that bot in #banaan
1059 2013-05-15 10:25:10 <nsh> nie
1060 2013-05-15 10:25:10 <kinlo> ikbenwouter: so no forks yet ? :)
1061 2013-05-15 10:25:12 <nsh> *nice
1062 2013-05-15 10:25:14 <ikbenwouter> nope
1063 2013-05-15 10:25:15 <nsh> nope
1064 2013-05-15 10:25:15 <Luke-Jr> ikbenwouter: it'd be nice if it had the current 0.4.x-0.7.x too
1065 2013-05-15 10:25:19 phish has joined
1066 2013-05-15 10:25:19 phish is now known as phish-
1067 2013-05-15 10:25:25 <nsh> dunno if anyone estimated the probability of long block
1068 2013-05-15 10:25:31 <nsh> or expectation
1069 2013-05-15 10:25:36 phish- has left ()
1070 2013-05-15 10:25:52 <nsh> but it's not massively immediate at a guess
1071 2013-05-15 10:26:06 <nsh> how long did it take when it ooopsihappened?
1072 2013-05-15 10:26:15 <nsh> almost certainly bound to take longer when actually expected
1073 2013-05-15 10:28:04 ecoloco has joined
1074 2013-05-15 10:28:41 <ecoloco> what does input Scripts and output Scripts means in blockchain?
1075 2013-05-15 10:29:40 Muis_ has quit (Quit: Connection reset by apple)
1076 2013-05-15 10:30:10 <Luke-Jr> ecoloco: inputs = coins to spend; outputs = coins to create
1077 2013-05-15 10:30:36 chmod755 has joined
1078 2013-05-15 10:31:19 XertroV has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1079 2013-05-15 10:31:37 XertroV has joined
1080 2013-05-15 10:32:18 upb has joined
1081 2013-05-15 10:33:53 n0ttgr has joined
1082 2013-05-15 10:34:42 <n0ttgr> is there any 'flaw' with UTXO fraud proofs? that is, do they not solve the problem of safely distributing block verification without every node needing to be full nodes?
1083 2013-05-15 10:34:49 <n0ttgr> aside from the fact they're very complicated to implement
1084 2013-05-15 10:37:06 rdymac has joined
1085 2013-05-15 10:37:06 rdymac has quit (Changing host)
1086 2013-05-15 10:37:06 rdymac has joined
1087 2013-05-15 10:38:15 <ecoloco> Luke-Jr: but what does it mean?
1088 2013-05-15 10:38:22 <ecoloco> could you expalin some more please?
1089 2013-05-15 10:39:30 upb has quit (Changing host)
1090 2013-05-15 10:39:30 upb has joined
1091 2013-05-15 10:39:47 <nsh> ecoloco, every transaction has a script that takes inputs (money from previous transactions or created by solving the block) and outputs (addresses and/or conditions to pay to)
1092 2013-05-15 10:40:29 <nsh> most scripts relatively trivial (moneys come from here, goes there)
1093 2013-05-15 10:40:58 ielo has joined
1094 2013-05-15 10:41:00 taha has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1095 2013-05-15 10:41:31 <nsh> but scripts allow interesting 'smart-property' features of bitcoin that are still to be elaborated
1096 2013-05-15 10:41:45 one_zero has quit ()
1097 2013-05-15 10:42:06 <nsh> ecoloco, technical information here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
1098 2013-05-15 10:42:11 taha has joined
1099 2013-05-15 10:42:29 <nsh> discussion: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/10046/an-explanation-of-transaction-scripts
1100 2013-05-15 10:42:36 chorao has joined
1101 2013-05-15 10:43:18 highPriestLOL is now known as zz_highPriestLOL
1102 2013-05-15 10:44:24 yubrew_ has joined
1103 2013-05-15 10:46:33 metabyte_ has joined
1104 2013-05-15 10:47:31 <ecoloco> nsh: ok thanks
1105 2013-05-15 10:47:53 <nsh> np
1106 2013-05-15 10:49:03 metabyte has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1107 2013-05-15 10:49:42 <ecoloco> "There can even be scripts that require you to answer a question."
1108 2013-05-15 10:49:46 <ecoloco> how does i know this?
1109 2013-05-15 10:49:57 <nsh> *it?
1110 2013-05-15 10:50:09 sacrelege has joined
1111 2013-05-15 10:50:21 melvster has joined
1112 2013-05-15 10:50:43 <ecoloco> yes
1113 2013-05-15 10:50:44 <ecoloco> ?
1114 2013-05-15 10:51:05 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1115 2013-05-15 10:51:15 <melvster> something very wierd is going on here : http://blockchain.info/address/1JwSSubhmg6iPtRjtyqhUYYH7bZg3Lfy1T
1116 2013-05-15 10:51:21 <nsh> basically you set a puzzle, the solution to which is the private key of a payout address, if i understand correctly
1117 2013-05-15 10:51:40 darenthis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1118 2013-05-15 10:51:48 <melvster> millions of dust in a public account
1119 2013-05-15 10:52:05 <melvster> this is the default account from brainwallet
1120 2013-05-15 10:52:37 XertroV has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1121 2013-05-15 10:52:38 <kinlo> melvster: the transactions got relayed, so they will get included over time
1122 2013-05-15 10:52:57 ne0futur has joined
1123 2013-05-15 10:53:03 <Scrat> 0.0001 fee for a 45kb transaction... argh
1124 2013-05-15 10:53:12 <ne0futur> hi all  a guy cam on -ot and said that :
1125 2013-05-15 10:53:15 <ne0futur> http://p.gw.gd/view/d022aeb2
1126 2013-05-15 10:53:26 <ne0futur> https://blockchain.info/address/1RhodonBkTHyna6xSBY8Bb8wJDdJoVpTL
1127 2013-05-15 10:53:33 <ne0futur> sems inded a little bit weird
1128 2013-05-15 10:53:52 <ne0futur> any explanations on that ?
1129 2013-05-15 10:54:01 root2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1130 2013-05-15 10:54:30 <ne0futur> oups bad blockchain link
1131 2013-05-15 10:54:30 BurtyBB is now known as BurtyB
1132 2013-05-15 10:54:32 <ne0futur> https://blockchain.info/address/14cZMQk89mRYQkDEj8Rn25AnGoBi5H6uer
1133 2013-05-15 10:55:16 Blitzboom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1134 2013-05-15 10:55:25 <nsh> ne0futur, what's wrong/weird?
1135 2013-05-15 10:55:32 <kinlo> ne0futur: so where do you see anything weird - yes it finds a lot of blocks but that's because it's btcguild's address
1136 2013-05-15 10:55:32 <ne0futur> err the 1000btc transaction disappeared from blockchain.info
1137 2013-05-15 10:55:42 <nsh> other than someone has 200k BTC that isn't me
1138 2013-05-15 10:56:04 <ne0futur> a 1000 btc tx with no input
1139 2013-05-15 10:56:09 <nsh> *1.3k
1140 2013-05-15 10:57:01 <ne0futur> nsh: dunno just asking and reporting the thing in case it could be important
1141 2013-05-15 10:57:04 <ne0futur> nothing more
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1145 2013-05-15 10:57:36 <nsh> ne0futur, ok. (i don't have experience enough to know what's important or not)
1146 2013-05-15 10:58:20 <ne0futur> but there was a 1000 btc tx with no input on https://blockchain.info/address/14cZMQk89mRYQkDEj8Rn25AnGoBi5H6uer
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1149 2013-05-15 10:58:59 <kinlo> I haven't seen that, but I guess it just means that blockchain would be wrong - bitcoin doesn't allow that
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1155 2013-05-15 11:00:34 <ne0futur> I seen it
1156 2013-05-15 11:01:45 <ecoloco> nsh: how do i set a puzzle?
1157 2013-05-15 11:01:50 <ne0futur> and the rhodon  left immediately
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1161 2013-05-15 11:03:33 <ecoloco> 
1162 2013-05-15 11:03:33 <yubrew_> I am implementing a hot/cold wallet combo in a web app, is armory a good way to go?
1163 2013-05-15 11:03:51 Blitzboom has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1164 2013-05-15 11:04:00 <nsh> ecoloco, this talk goes into some details: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD4L7xDNCmA
1165 2013-05-15 11:04:12 debiantoruser has joined
1166 2013-05-15 11:05:11 <ecoloco> nsH: thanks
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1168 2013-05-15 11:05:25 <nsh> np
1169 2013-05-15 11:05:34 larsig has joined
1170 2013-05-15 11:05:42 <ecoloco> imazing that people have alot of bitcoins
1171 2013-05-15 11:06:08 <ecoloco> why do they dont exchange it and life there life? :)
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1180 2013-05-15 11:24:25 <Munic> window 0
1181 2013-05-15 11:24:37 <nsh> ed
1182 2013-05-15 11:26:13 <Munic> is there any reasonable explanation for txid 7227c9d392166fdcd917f39da2def36bcf69b437d90e349d73a48952c0fbdd69?
1183 2013-05-15 11:27:08 <Munic> I'm having a hard time believing that it was accidental, there's at least 5 others similar to it.
1184 2013-05-15 11:27:13 melvster has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1185 2013-05-15 11:29:46 <nsh> ;;google donate 1JwSSubhmg6iPtRjtyqhUYYH7bZg3Lfy1T
1186 2013-05-15 11:29:47 <gribble> Bitcoin Address 1JwSSubhmg6iPtRjtyqhUYYH7bZg3Lfy1T: <http://blockchain.info/address/1JwSSubhmg6iPtRjtyqhUYYH7bZg3Lfy1T>; Bitcoin Address 13ignD31FysQbaBBVJUzffcQoFxxEuEcbE: <https://blockchain.info/address/13ignD31FysQbaBBVJUzffcQoFxxEuEcbE>; Bitcoin Address Tags - Blockchain.info: <http://blockchain.info/tags?filter=4>
1187 2013-05-15 11:30:04 <nsh> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=122274.60
1188 2013-05-15 11:30:42 grau_ has joined
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1190 2013-05-15 11:31:53 <Munic> nsh: I realise that the privkey is public
1191 2013-05-15 11:33:05 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1192 2013-05-15 11:33:29 <nsh> k
1193 2013-05-15 11:34:01 <Munic> nsh: it just seems like a lot of effort to make a non-confirming TX, that's all
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1198 2013-05-15 11:41:25 <nsh> Munic, i have no idea to be honest
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1202 2013-05-15 11:42:40 <Munic> nsh: I suppose someone else would  have mentioned it if it were important.
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1243 2013-05-15 13:05:50 <petertodd> Munic: maybe someone is trying to trigger a fork by getting a pile of transactions mined? that's 25 transactions, with just under 3000 txout's each, and every last one is trivially spendable (but uneconomic to do so)
1244 2013-05-15 13:06:43 <nsh> oh, good shout
1245 2013-05-15 13:06:44 <nsh> that could be it
1246 2013-05-15 13:07:19 <petertodd> slightly odd way to do is, but I guess they wanted to let someone else spend the bulk of the money (that's just under 1BTC in)
1247 2013-05-15 13:07:50 <petertodd> 2936 txouts each, just a few bytes under the 100K standard tx limit
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1249 2013-05-15 13:10:07 <petertodd> oh, no, that's 50 tx's... so 50*2936=146800 txouts
1250 2013-05-15 13:10:44 <petertodd> 2% of the all-time total, kinda crazy, although at least they're all spendable in theory
1251 2013-05-15 13:11:10 * nsh is suddenly reminded of a Greg Egan novella...
1252 2013-05-15 13:11:14 <nsh> http://gregegan.customer.netspace.net.au/PERMUTATION/FAQ/FAQ.html
1253 2013-05-15 13:11:14 <petertodd> ?
1254 2013-05-15 13:11:21 <sipa> to create a fork you need transactions with many inputs
1255 2013-05-15 13:11:27 <sipa> many outputs doesn't help
1256 2013-05-15 13:11:54 filleokus has joined
1257 2013-05-15 13:11:56 <sipa> (as no matter how many outputs a transaction has, they all affect the same UTXO (indexed by txid))
1258 2013-05-15 13:11:56 ProfMac has joined
1259 2013-05-15 13:11:56 <petertodd> sipa: hmm... probably someone who doesn't know what they're doing
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1262 2013-05-15 13:17:27 <yubrew_> I'm trying to transfer a small amount of bitcoin, ~.0001btc but it shows an error: Error: This transaction requires a transaction fee of at least 0.0005 because of its amount, complexity, or use of recently received funds!
1263 2013-05-15 13:17:49 <petertodd> yubrew_: bitcoin is not a microtransaction system
1264 2013-05-15 13:17:56 <yubrew_> If I were transferring more than 1 btc, would it pass?
1265 2013-05-15 13:18:03 melvster has joined
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1267 2013-05-15 13:18:14 <petertodd> yubrew_: yes, with the same fee
1268 2013-05-15 13:18:29 <sipa> or not
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1271 2013-05-15 13:19:02 <yubrew_> so how do places like bitvisitor.com send people essentially micropayments
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1275 2013-05-15 13:19:19 <petertodd> yubrew_: by paying huge fees
1276 2013-05-15 13:19:26 <petertodd> (compared to the value of the payments)
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1280 2013-05-15 13:19:49 <yubrew_> petertodd so there are no fee-less transactions now?
1281 2013-05-15 13:20:09 <sipa> yubrew_: there are
1282 2013-05-15 13:20:18 <petertodd> yubrew_: don't count on them, the code is still there, but fees are your bid for blockchain space
1283 2013-05-15 13:20:33 <sipa> yubrew_: fees are only required when the system would consider them spam otherwise
1284 2013-05-15 13:20:37 <yubrew_> if it is not time sensitive, then going feeless doesn't matter right?
1285 2013-05-15 13:20:50 <sipa> but indeed, without fees you get much lower priority
1286 2013-05-15 13:21:17 melvster3 has joined
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1288 2013-05-15 13:21:37 <yubrew_> in the case of bitvisitor.com the transactions seem to take a couple hours to verify
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1292 2013-05-15 13:23:31 <yubrew_> I'm looking at transaction fee requirements here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
1293 2013-05-15 13:23:48 melvster has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1294 2013-05-15 13:23:53 <yubrew_> so how do you know the number of bytes of a transaction?
1295 2013-05-15 13:24:48 <K1773R> you create the tx, check how how it is?
1296 2013-05-15 13:24:52 <K1773R> *how long
1297 2013-05-15 13:24:54 <kinlo> you can't using the bitcoin client - but if you want to make sure that you can keep small transactions, try to set your poolpayouts to be higher :)
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1303 2013-05-15 13:32:46 <furion> Hello
1304 2013-05-15 13:32:58 darenthis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1305 2013-05-15 13:35:17 <furion> I am working on a project for fun...javascript litecoin miner. I know it won't make any use when done, but Im having good time anyway. I'm a bit stuck tho. So far I got node.js server with json-rpc wrapper and socket connection to web worker, which handles mining. I've got 'getwork' covered, flipping byte order, doing scrypt. Now I'm kinda stuck, because I don't know how to write the function that handles the hashing itself. How
1306 2013-05-15 13:35:25 <furion> and how do I know which hash is the winner?
1307 2013-05-15 13:36:19 melvster1 has joined
1308 2013-05-15 13:36:21 <furion> The pseudocode here says the result is right when it matches difficulty, I wrote a little funciton that calculates difficulty, but what does that help me? WHat do I compare hash against to know its a winner?
1309 2013-05-15 13:36:23 <furion> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Getwork
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1338 2013-05-15 14:17:57 <ThomasV> etotheipi_: hey, are you here?
1339 2013-05-15 14:20:34 <jouke> Does anyone know a good way to check when and where https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/CVEs#CVE-2013-2272 was fixed?
1340 2013-05-15 14:21:53 <nsh> ;;google inurl:github.com/bitcoin "CVE-2013-227"
1341 2013-05-15 14:21:54 <gribble> No matches found.
1342 2013-05-15 14:24:33 zz_highPriestLOL is now known as highPriestLOL
1343 2013-05-15 14:25:11 <nsh> jouke, the fix release numbers are given, i guess pending anyone who knows chipping in you could check the changelogs / commits for those release
1344 2013-05-15 14:25:37 <sipa> afaik it is fixed
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1346 2013-05-15 14:28:53 <BlueMatt> yes, that was fixed quite a while ago
1347 2013-05-15 14:30:37 <furion> hello
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1351 2013-05-15 14:36:44 <etotheipi_> ThomasV: yes
1352 2013-05-15 14:36:50 <etotheipi_> (err, now I am)
1353 2013-05-15 14:37:15 <ThomasV> etotheipi_: what should go in the sub merkle tree? only txids?
1354 2013-05-15 14:37:44 <ThomasV> I mean to compute the hash of an address
1355 2013-05-15 14:38:21 <etotheipi_> ThomasV:  that's a detail I havne't fully fleshed out
1356 2013-05-15 14:38:59 <etotheipi_> but I imagine something like  the (TxHash:TxOutIndex:Value) would be hashed to produce the node IDs
1357 2013-05-15 14:39:23 <ThomasV> ok, I'll assume it's only txids for now, and padding with the last txid if there's an odd number of them
1358 2013-05-15 14:39:31 <ThomasV> oh ok
1359 2013-05-15 14:39:49 <ThomasV> that's feasible too
1360 2013-05-15 14:40:02 <etotheipi_> ThomasV: there was some debate that was never resolved
1361 2013-05-15 14:40:28 <etotheipi_> do you force the tree to stop at 20 hops, and then use sub trees at each of the nodes
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1363 2013-05-15 14:40:43 <etotheipi_> or do you just make Address20:OutPoint the key of the tree
1364 2013-05-15 14:40:51 <etotheipi_> and let it jump right to the outpoint if the address has only one?
1365 2013-05-15 14:41:04 <ThomasV> what's outpoint?
1366 2013-05-15 14:41:12 <etotheipi_> TxHash+TxOutIndex
1367 2013-05-15 14:41:27 <ThomasV> but that means much longer keys...
1368 2013-05-15 14:41:29 <etotheipi_> Look at the TxIn serialization... all inputsreference outpoints
1369 2013-05-15 14:41:54 <etotheipi_> I was a fan of the separate subtrees
1370 2013-05-15 14:42:02 <ThomasV> you want to store one db key per txout?
1371 2013-05-15 14:42:12 <etotheipi_> it cleans up the base tree a bit, meaning you never "skip" the address
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1373 2013-05-15 14:42:36 <etotheipi_> each leaf in the main tree is an address/script, and then each one has a value that is the root of its subtree which can be verified independently
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1375 2013-05-15 14:43:06 <etotheipi_> ThomasV: yeah, one db key per txout
1376 2013-05-15 14:43:11 <ThomasV> the latter solution is closer to what I already have in electrum servers
1377 2013-05-15 14:43:53 <ThomasV> I just serialize all txouts corresponding to one address, and it is stored at the address
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1379 2013-05-15 14:44:51 <Scrat> oh etotheipi_ now that you're here: what's the minimum RAM for running in offline mode?
1380 2013-05-15 14:45:13 <Scrat> (on 0.88.1)
1381 2013-05-15 14:45:15 <etotheipi_> Scrat: probably 256 MB
1382 2013-05-15 14:45:21 <ThomasV> etotheipi_: but hat's an implementation detail, both should be possible
1383 2013-05-15 14:45:22 <etotheipi_> there's not really a minimum
1384 2013-05-15 14:45:28 * jgarzik wakes up
1385 2013-05-15 14:45:29 <etotheipi_> ThomasV: almost an implemnetation detail
1386 2013-05-15 14:45:30 <jgarzik> morning, all
1387 2013-05-15 14:45:34 <jgarzik> any big blocks yet?
1388 2013-05-15 14:45:46 <sipa> jgarzik: noty afaik
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1391 2013-05-15 14:46:06 <etotheipi_> ThomasV: because if you bypass the address via skip string because the address has only one TxOut, then you need to decide how you are serializing/proving data for an address
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1393 2013-05-15 14:46:43 <etotheipi_> I like the "cleanliness" of having each address/script be a leaf, which can't be "skipped" over
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1395 2013-05-15 14:47:12 <ThomasV> etotheipi_: hmm, not sure I understand
1396 2013-05-15 14:47:27 hazrd has joined
1397 2013-05-15 14:47:29 <hazrd> hey all
1398 2013-05-15 14:47:54 <etotheipi_> ThomasV:   you have addresss    12345  with 1 UTXO,  and 12399 with 2 UTXOs
1399 2013-05-15 14:48:33 <ThomasV> yes?
1400 2013-05-15 14:48:44 <etotheipi_> the DB will look like [123, 12345utxo0, 12399, 12399utxo1, 12399utxo2]
1401 2013-05-15 14:48:53 <etotheipi_> notice you have a specific node with its own hash for 12399
1402 2013-05-15 14:48:59 <etotheipi_> but you don't have it for 12345
1403 2013-05-15 14:49:16 <ThomasV> oh I see
1404 2013-05-15 14:49:40 <etotheipi_> if someone asks you for address 12345, you can only give the one UTXO for it, you don't really have a specific leaf to give them
1405 2013-05-15 14:49:57 <etotheipi_> it may not be a problem, but it needs to be considered
1406 2013-05-15 14:50:22 <ThomasV> but that's with the first solution anyway
1407 2013-05-15 14:50:36 <ThomasV> I was considering the second one
1408 2013-05-15 14:50:42 <etotheipi_> ThomasV: with separate trees?
1409 2013-05-15 14:50:50 <etotheipi_> err.. subtrees
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1411 2013-05-15 14:51:09 <ThomasV> well, subtrees would not be stored at the database level
1412 2013-05-15 14:51:27 <ThomasV> just store the list of utxos for each address
1413 2013-05-15 14:51:42 <etotheipi_> ThomasV: the problem with subtrees, is that if everyone is responsible and uses each address once, then you're adding a lot of data to the structure
1414 2013-05-15 14:51:46 <ThomasV> 12345 -> [utxo1, utxo2]
1415 2013-05-15 14:51:56 <etotheipi_> to have a separate node for the address and the UTXO
1416 2013-05-15 14:52:01 <etotheipi_> actually, I guess it's not that bad
1417 2013-05-15 14:52:19 <etotheipi_> ThomasV: one problem with that :)
1418 2013-05-15 14:52:35 <ThomasV> no, no separate node
1419 2013-05-15 14:52:49 <etotheipi_> try doing what you just said with this address:  1dice8EMZmqKvrGE4Qc9bUFf9PX3xaYDp
1420 2013-05-15 14:53:33 <etotheipi_> you're going to have some pretty epic key-value pairs that are going to take a bit of resources to update
1421 2013-05-15 14:53:42 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
1422 2013-05-15 14:53:47 <ThomasV> oh I already do it, but I only store new keys after each block
1423 2013-05-15 14:53:57 <ThomasV> I don't do it online
1424 2013-05-15 14:54:25 <ThomasV> I guess with 1dice the challenge would be to do it online
1425 2013-05-15 14:54:48 <ThomasV> since I do it block by block it is less of a problem
1426 2013-05-15 14:55:21 <etotheipi_> ThomasV: what do you mean "don't do it online"?
1427 2013-05-15 14:55:39 <ThomasV> I only upate my database once a new block is published
1428 2013-05-15 14:56:06 <ThomasV> in contrast, a miner will need to update the tree each time they add an address to the block they want to mine
1429 2013-05-15 14:56:17 <ThomasV> that's what I call 'online'
1430 2013-05-15 14:56:18 <etotheipi_> ThomasV: sure, but you still have addresses with thousands of UTXO
1431 2013-05-15 14:56:24 ghash has joined
1432 2013-05-15 14:56:53 <ThomasV> yes, but that's not a problem
1433 2013-05-15 14:56:56 <etotheipi_> ThomasV: meh, you're right, even with 10s of thousands of UTXOs, it's not *that* bad to update once every 10 min
1434 2013-05-15 14:57:18 <sipa> you may want to consider committing to the state as it was at the parent block, instead of the current one
1435 2013-05-15 14:57:36 <sipa> so miners don't need continuous rehashing
1436 2013-05-15 14:58:27 highPriestLOL is now known as zz_highPriestLOL
1437 2013-05-15 14:58:28 <ThomasV> sipa: you mean the previous block? indeed. guess what, this is how I first thought bitcoin mining works
1438 2013-05-15 14:58:31 <ThomasV> :)
1439 2013-05-15 14:58:43 <sipa> yes
1440 2013-05-15 14:58:44 ielo_ has joined
1441 2013-05-15 14:59:17 <ThomasV> when I first discovered bitcoin, I thought all miners had the same target, defined by the previous block :)
1442 2013-05-15 14:59:20 jn has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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1445 2013-05-15 15:01:28 <ThomasV> so, maybe it could work with this hash tree, but this means you'd need to wait 2 blocks in order to trust your balance
1446 2013-05-15 15:03:07 <tonikt> Is any of you guys interested in investigating why my official bitcoin client got stuck at testnet block #77459 and does not wan't to move further?
1447 2013-05-15 15:03:23 <tonikt> Because, if not, then I am deleting this database...
1448 2013-05-15 15:03:33 <ghash> I'm running bitcoind on Ubuntu 10.04 via terminal and when I start bitcoind it says Do you want to rebuild the block database now?
1449 2013-05-15 15:03:39 <ghash> but I cant select anything
1450 2013-05-15 15:03:44 <ghash> when I write yes it just spams y
1451 2013-05-15 15:03:46 <ghash> "y"
1452 2013-05-15 15:04:11 <ThomasV> ghash: 'yes' is a command that does just that
1453 2013-05-15 15:04:17 <ghash> lol
1454 2013-05-15 15:04:36 LorenzoMoney has joined
1455 2013-05-15 15:04:38 <ghash> ok, but how do I tell the bitcoind server to indeed rebuild the block databse (because there is none)
1456 2013-05-15 15:04:45 <sipa> ghash: you should start with -reindex in that case; the error message is bogus
1457 2013-05-15 15:04:55 <sipa> ghash: it actually just exits after printing that question
1458 2013-05-15 15:05:46 Muis has joined
1459 2013-05-15 15:06:05 <ThomasV> strangely, there is no 'no' command
1460 2013-05-15 15:06:12 newbquestion_ has joined
1461 2013-05-15 15:06:13 <sipa> yes n
1462 2013-05-15 15:06:29 <ThomasV> oh
1463 2013-05-15 15:06:32 <ThomasV> nice
1464 2013-05-15 15:07:07 <newbquestion_> anyone: can someone without having your btc public key ...reverse engineer and get it from you private key ?
1465 2013-05-15 15:07:29 <ThomasV> yes
1466 2013-05-15 15:08:07 <sipa> newbquestion_: with about 2^140 EC operations
1467 2013-05-15 15:08:25 <ThomasV> sipa: no, he means the other way
1468 2013-05-15 15:08:31 <sipa> oh
1469 2013-05-15 15:08:34 <sipa> of course
1470 2013-05-15 15:08:38 suporte85 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1471 2013-05-15 15:08:54 <ThomasV> (unless he mistyped the question)
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1474 2013-05-15 15:11:55 <furion> how does one determine max_nonce in bitcoin mining process?
1475 2013-05-15 15:13:30 newbquestion has joined
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1478 2013-05-15 15:15:06 Eleuthria[AFK] is now known as Eleuthria
1479 2013-05-15 15:15:16 <newbquestion> sorry i crashed ... was asking if a person has a private key that unlocks the btc public address ... but does not have the btc public address ... can they reverse hack it to get the address ?
1480 2013-05-15 15:15:39 triciam has quit (Quit: TTFN)
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1482 2013-05-15 15:15:54 <ThomasV> newbquestion: yes they can
1483 2013-05-15 15:16:22 <ThomasV> but saying 'unlock' is not appropriate here
1484 2013-05-15 15:16:27 <Scrat> newbquestion: yep and that's how addresses are created
1485 2013-05-15 15:16:31 zz_highPriestLOL is now known as highPriestLOL
1486 2013-05-15 15:16:50 Eleuthria has left ()
1487 2013-05-15 15:17:43 <newbquestion> ThomasV: so storing in the cloud on Server A public btc address and then way far away on Server B the private key is NOT a good idea ? because the admin of that server could reverse the private key and get the address ?
1488 2013-05-15 15:18:25 <sipa> newbquestion: you should *never* expose private keys
1489 2013-05-15 15:18:27 <sipa> *ever*
1490 2013-05-15 15:18:38 <Scrat> newbquestion: this isnt reversing, going from private to public to bitcoin address is how you create addresses
1491 2013-05-15 15:18:40 <sipa> (at least, not in an unencrypted form)
1492 2013-05-15 15:18:41 <ThomasV> newbquestion: the address is public
1493 2013-05-15 15:19:15 furion has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1494 2013-05-15 15:19:33 seeingidog__ has joined
1495 2013-05-15 15:19:52 <newbquestion> still confused: i have to store my private key somewhere - why not on a server that has not relation to a different server ?
1496 2013-05-15 15:19:55 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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1498 2013-05-15 15:20:24 <Scrat> because just the private key alone is enough for someone to move all funds from that address
1499 2013-05-15 15:20:26 <sipa> newbquestion: if the private key is revealed, anyone can instantly access all your coins that are protect with them
1500 2013-05-15 15:20:38 <sipa> what server the public key is on is irrelevant, you don't need it
1501 2013-05-15 15:20:48 Michail1_ is now known as Michail1
1502 2013-05-15 15:20:50 <ThomasV> etotheipi_: I guess it should be possible to store utxo trees in the db only for addresses that really need it, and keep it simple for other addresses
1503 2013-05-15 15:20:51 <newbquestion> kk gotcha understand
1504 2013-05-15 15:21:11 <Scrat> private key to bitcoin address conversion (not reversal) takes less than a millisecond
1505 2013-05-15 15:21:16 <ThomasV> because most addresses will not really need it
1506 2013-05-15 15:22:02 <Scrat> s/conversion/derivation/
1507 2013-05-15 15:22:07 <etotheipi_> ThomasV:  kind of... I was thinking that if you go all the work to enable it for ANY addresses, you might as well do it for all addresses
1508 2013-05-15 15:22:14 <newbquestion> so if i forget my public address i can get a program to tell me what it was ?
1509 2013-05-15 15:22:27 <newbquestion> from my private key associated with that address ?
1510 2013-05-15 15:22:31 <sipa> newbquestion: yes
1511 2013-05-15 15:22:31 suporte85 has joined
1512 2013-05-15 15:22:36 <sipa> newbquestion: but don't assume that's easy
1513 2013-05-15 15:22:54 <sipa> (not because it's a hard operation, but because you'll typically have many private keys)
1514 2013-05-15 15:23:32 galic1987 has joined
1515 2013-05-15 15:23:40 <galic1987> hi people
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1517 2013-05-15 15:24:11 <newbquestion> sipa: i used to think you needed both private and public keys - to make anything work ... seems my old way thinking would be safer imo
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1519 2013-05-15 15:24:59 <Scrat> newbquestion: it is the basis of public key cryptography that you can derive from private to public fast and not the other way around
1520 2013-05-15 15:25:28 <newbquestion> sipa: THANK YOU ...
1521 2013-05-15 15:26:31 <sipa> Scrat: for RSA you generate the private and public key at the same time, and depending on which piece of data you consider belonging to it, it may be actually hard both going from private key to public key and the other way around
1522 2013-05-15 15:26:35 <nsh> that, and dongle-forking, are the two bases of public key crypto
1523 2013-05-15 15:26:53 <newbquestion> scrat: ya ...gotcha been watching the videos of at kahn academy ...ty brother
1524 2013-05-15 15:26:58 <sipa> typically in cryptophic signature schemes, there are 3 steps: keygen, sign, verify
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1526 2013-05-15 15:27:14 BTCOxygen is now known as 1!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/btcoxygen|BTCOxygen
1527 2013-05-15 15:27:34 <sipa> for ECDSA it's sort of an exception that keygen is just "go from private key to public key"
1528 2013-05-15 15:27:37 <ThomasV> etotheipi_: for the moment I'll try to make only minimal changes to my database; I'll see later if separate utxo trees should be implemented
1529 2013-05-15 15:27:48 n5 has joined
1530 2013-05-15 15:27:51 <ThomasV> let's start simple :)
1531 2013-05-15 15:27:52 <Scrat> sipa yeah indeed I should have said the basis of bitcoin PK crypto
1532 2013-05-15 15:28:25 <MC1984_> receive version message: version 70001, blocks=236323, us=127.0.0.1:8333, them=1
1533 2013-05-15 15:28:25 <MC1984_> 27.0.0.1:8333, peer=108.67.64.247:38830
1534 2013-05-15 15:28:33 <MC1984_> why is it reporting localhost
1535 2013-05-15 15:28:58 <MC1984_> the send version message entry has the real ips
1536 2013-05-15 15:29:17 <sipa> MC1984_: is that a connection coming in via a proxy?
1537 2013-05-15 15:29:33 <MC1984_> no proxy, i just have a nat router
1538 2013-05-15 15:29:37 <newbquestion> so i guess the best thing to do is store you keys on two different flash drives (one as a backup) ?
1539 2013-05-15 15:29:52 <sipa> newbquestion: encrypt your wallet, store it somewhere safe
1540 2013-05-15 15:30:17 melvster1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1543 2013-05-15 15:30:20 dansmith_btc has joined
1544 2013-05-15 15:30:49 <newbquestion> ya and encrypted (been reading on Trucrypt) of encrypted drive in an encrypted drive stored on flash
1545 2013-05-15 15:32:02 <newbquestion> Thank again all ...back to working on my site ...(will not allow private keys now lol ) ....to much security for me to handle
1546 2013-05-15 15:32:13 <newbquestion> POOF
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1551 2013-05-15 15:34:04 <MC1984_> accepted connection 209.89.251.235:48808
1552 2013-05-15 15:34:04 <MC1984_> send version message: version 70001, blocks=236324, us=213.107.12.140:8333, them
1553 2013-05-15 15:34:04 <MC1984_> =209.89.251.235:48808, peer=209.89.251.235:48808
1554 2013-05-15 15:34:04 <MC1984_> Added time data, samples 200, offset +19 (+0 minutes)
1555 2013-05-15 15:34:04 <MC1984_> receive version message: version 70001, blocks=236318, us=127.0.0.1:8333, them=1
1556 2013-05-15 15:34:05 <MC1984_> 27.0.0.1:8333, peer=209.89.251.235:48808
1557 2013-05-15 15:34:12 <MC1984_> thats a full handshake
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1573 2013-05-15 15:49:07 <gmaxwell> :-/ darn no one figured out why tonikt's testnet node was rejecting the chain.
1574 2013-05-15 15:49:35 highPriestLOL is now known as zz_highPriestLOL
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1578 2013-05-15 15:53:47 <nsh>  gmaxwell, on -rc1?
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1584 2013-05-15 15:59:41 <tonikt> gmaxwell: I've looked at this - the node's last block was #77459, but the function AlreadyHave() was returning true for even never blocks
1585 2013-05-15 15:59:58 <tonikt> -reindex healed it
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1591 2013-05-15 16:01:49 <gmaxwell> tonikt: yes, it had them because they were fetched but also rejected because 77460 was. Unforunately your log didn't indicate why 77460 was rejected because it didn't go back far enough.
1592 2013-05-15 16:02:31 <gmaxwell> my bet would have been that it was fluky memory corruption at the time you recieved 77460 and that a reindex would fix it, though it's a little disappointing to not see exactly where it was failing.
1593 2013-05-15 16:02:45 ikea_meatballs has quit (Quit: ikea_meatballs)
1594 2013-05-15 16:02:58 <tonikt> gmaxwell: if you want to look at it youself, the tar with that entire testnet3 folder is only 67MB big :)
1595 2013-05-15 16:03:11 <alaricsp> Fluky memory corruption is a big fear... us software devs tend to assume that memory is infallible. It's not.
1596 2013-05-15 16:03:17 <tonikt> it's 100% reproducible
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1600 2013-05-15 16:04:05 <MC1984_> speaking of which, didnt the sun recently belch out like 4 solar flares in a row
1601 2013-05-15 16:04:05 <gmaxwell> tonikt: oh did you back it up before you reindexed?
1602 2013-05-15 16:04:07 <MC1984_> just sayin
1603 2013-05-15 16:04:49 <gmaxwell> alaricsp: I certantly don't, having seen memory corruption too many times to continue discounting it. Fortunately I'm not too afraid of single systems getting stuck.
1604 2013-05-15 16:05:01 zooko_ has joined
1605 2013-05-15 16:05:09 <tonikt> gmaxwell: yes, I did
1606 2013-05-15 16:05:43 <alaricsp> gmaxwell: Yeah, you can't really avoid single systems getting stuck in general; the best you can do is to make your distributed system tolerant of that :-)
1607 2013-05-15 16:06:04 <alaricsp> End to end checksums are something I've been trying to get into distributed databases at the companies I've worked at, but the market isn't demanding them yet
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1625 2013-05-15 16:30:18 <tonikt> this is the file with the DB, if anyone would like to check it: http://ubuntuone.com/0dZ619Q4Jh7LVlh6iwExHV
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1631 2013-05-15 16:34:40 <john_z__work> can someone explain me what was done in this transaction: http://blockexplorer.com/tx/c6d3e7786fab79b401926e514ae3239425170058b4eeccf56a1d83cd7c74ef74 ?
1632 2013-05-15 16:34:52 <john_z__work> ously somebody splitted one input into thousands of 0.0000025 outputs..
1633 2013-05-15 16:34:53 Muis has quit (Client Quit)
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1635 2013-05-15 16:35:07 <john_z__work> s/ously/obviously/
1636 2013-05-15 16:35:19 <john_z__work> creating dust on purpose?
1637 2013-05-15 16:35:34 BenderCoin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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1639 2013-05-15 16:36:40 <tonikt> john_z__work: the right question should be: why did anyone agree to mine it in? :)
1640 2013-05-15 16:37:09 <tonikt> ... I guess 0.0005 BTC was enough of an incentive for him :)
1641 2013-05-15 16:37:14 <john_z__work> of course, you're right. why would someone do this
1642 2013-05-15 16:37:29 <john_z__work> ah, I just saw: Fee: 0.01264
1643 2013-05-15 16:37:54 <tonikt> oh than - even bigger incentive then
1644 2013-05-15 16:37:59 <john_z__work> btw, that's a well known brainwallet address..
1645 2013-05-15 16:38:03 <john_z__work> correct horse battery staple
1646 2013-05-15 16:38:32 <john_z__work> so someone is looking if anybody gets the dust from there
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1652 2013-05-15 16:39:31 <tonikt> really? then it's really mean :)
1653 2013-05-15 16:40:35 <tonikt> make 3000 outputs which anyone knows a key to, but spending them would need to disturb the network even further...
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1656 2013-05-15 16:45:07 <john_z__work> the block containing this transaction was mined by BTCGuild
1657 2013-05-15 16:46:15 Guest50651 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1658 2013-05-15 16:46:16 <tonikt> gee, to spend it all in one go, you need a 500KB size transaction :)
1659 2013-05-15 16:46:29 <tonikt> lets try it
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1672 2013-05-15 16:55:39 <john_z__work> tonikt, I also imported the private key and now the client show me much more (unconfirmed) balance. So somebody is still sending such transactions to this address?
1673 2013-05-15 16:55:56 rushed has joined
1674 2013-05-15 16:56:02 <john_z__work> what's the point of doing this?
1675 2013-05-15 16:56:52 <gmaxwell> it's a penny flooding attack. makes the network more costly to operate, screws up wallet software that has that key in it.
1676 2013-05-15 16:57:22 <TD> i hope mark doesn't come to the conference
1677 2013-05-15 16:57:57 * TD wonders if the timing of the seizures is intended to be right before the conference
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1681 2013-05-15 17:00:02 <tonikt> john_z__work: I did send a transaction to give out all that outputs as a fee, but considering that it is 500+KB big, I don't think it has even been relayed by a single node
1682 2013-05-15 17:00:04 <sipa> TD: what did i miss?
1683 2013-05-15 17:00:08 <TD> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/05/feds-reveal-the-search-warrant-that-seized-mt-gox-account/
1684 2013-05-15 17:00:19 <TD> if MagicalTux comes to the USA it seems there's a risk he might get arrested
1685 2013-05-15 17:00:25 <TD> i hope he stays in japan for his own sake
1686 2013-05-15 17:00:34 <tonikt> BTW: does bitcoin accept transaction which has an output with a zero value?
1687 2013-05-15 17:00:42 <sipa> tonikt: they are valid but non-standard
1688 2013-05-15 17:00:50 Ogig has quit (Read error: No route to host)
1689 2013-05-15 17:01:05 <sipa> TD: right, i only knew the word 'seizure' in medical context
1690 2013-05-15 17:01:33 <TD> briefly, they think he opened a US bank account and said it wasn't used for "money transmitting" on the paperwork, then used it for mt gox
1691 2013-05-15 17:01:39 <john_z__work> gmaxwell, ok I understand
1692 2013-05-15 17:01:42 <TD> which would violate US law and has criminal penalties
1693 2013-05-15 17:02:07 <tonikt> oh, he just needs to offend president obama and he wont be allowed to enter US, anyway :)
1694 2013-05-15 17:02:31 resinate has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1695 2013-05-15 17:02:33 <TD> unfortunately the US does have a track record of arresting executives of foreign financial firms if they go near US airspace
1696 2013-05-15 17:02:45 <TD> regardless of whether their business is legal in their home jurisdiction
1697 2013-05-15 17:03:27 <TD> it doesn't seem like coincidence that the DHS is moving now when so many important people will be in the same place. i was a bit worried about this kind of thing when the conference was announced to be in san jose but thought i was just being paranoid
1698 2013-05-15 17:03:31 <tonikt> he will be safe, like this guy: http://www.theweek.co.uk/people-news/11611/british-boy-gets-us-ban-calling-obama-%E2%80%98prick%E2%80%99
1699 2013-05-15 17:03:58 * TD would definitely feel better if bitcoin events were organized outside the US in future
1700 2013-05-15 17:04:08 <nsh> in his defence, obama is a bit of a prick...
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1705 2013-05-15 17:08:26 <tonikt> at the other hand, I don't think Japan is over the range of the prick's drones :)
1706 2013-05-15 17:09:26 <tonikt> so mark should definitely watch his back ;)
1707 2013-05-15 17:09:37 resinate has joined
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1722 2013-05-15 17:22:35 <gmaxwell> td: FWIW, wire-out from mtgox to the US still appears to work fine.
1723 2013-05-15 17:22:58 <sacarlson> has there been any one speaking of using Adapteva's Epiphany chip for bitcoin mining?  It's said to have 70 gflops / watt for only like $99.  sorry for the people who invested in big gpu rigs
1724 2013-05-15 17:23:16 <gmaxwell> ...
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1728 2013-05-15 17:25:42 <sipa> sacarlson: unfortunately, not a sigle of those flops are useful
1729 2013-05-15 17:26:02 <sacarlson> sipa: and why is that?
1730 2013-05-15 17:26:24 <sipa> because you need integer/bitwise operations, not floating point operations
1731 2013-05-15 17:26:50 <sacarlson> sipa: and arm doesn't have that?
1732 2013-05-15 17:27:08 <sipa> they do, but it's unlikely to be optimized for them
1733 2013-05-15 17:27:17 <gmaxwell> Epiphany's cores are _not_ arm.
1734 2013-05-15 17:27:26 <tonikt> BTW, I just cannot believe that none of the big silicon manufacturers (like intel, IBM, broadcom or ST) has not jumped into bitcoin ASIC solutions. What a bunch of suckers :)
1735 2013-05-15 17:27:38 <gmaxwell> and even if they were, 64*800 mhz arm would actually not be terribly competative with gpus.
1736 2013-05-15 17:27:49 <gmaxwell> (for bitcoin mining)
1737 2013-05-15 17:27:55 bitexchanger has joined
1738 2013-05-15 17:27:59 daybyter has joined
1739 2013-05-15 17:28:19 <bitexchanger> Hey guys I have a question
1740 2013-05-15 17:28:24 nsillik has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1741 2013-05-15 17:28:24 nsillik_ is now known as nsillik
1742 2013-05-15 17:28:40 <bitexchanger> Lets say i have a bitcoin client 0.7 or older that hasn't been ran since april
1743 2013-05-15 17:28:56 <bitexchanger> Will the fork affect me? Or as long as i update it before i start the program it should be okay ?
1744 2013-05-15 17:29:55 <graingert> bitexchanger: yep
1745 2013-05-15 17:29:58 n5 has joined
1746 2013-05-15 17:30:03 <bitexchanger> yep to which question ?
1747 2013-05-15 17:30:14 <graingert> bitexchanger: ask them one at a time
1748 2013-05-15 17:30:20 <gmaxwell> just update, you'll be fine.
1749 2013-05-15 17:30:24 <graingert> ^
1750 2013-05-15 17:30:30 <bitexchanger> Thanks
1751 2013-05-15 17:30:34 <bitexchanger> Give me your bitcoin addresses
1752 2013-05-15 17:30:38 <bitexchanger> Both of you
1753 2013-05-15 17:31:03 <gmaxwell> bitexchanger: 1GMaxweLLbo8mdXvnnC19Wt2wigiYUKgEB  though there is no need…
1754 2013-05-15 17:31:24 Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1755 2013-05-15 17:31:32 <bitexchanger> and gmaxwell?
1756 2013-05-15 17:31:42 da2ce7_d has joined
1757 2013-05-15 17:32:15 <bitexchanger> I meant "and graingert?"
1758 2013-05-15 17:32:25 <bitexchanger> I already sent you a tip gmax. Did you receive it ?
1759 2013-05-15 17:32:46 <graingert> 1HwEGYmb6zvpYmURDRKMXqajiBw7dNDCu6
1760 2013-05-15 17:32:49 <graingert> bitexchanger: ^
1761 2013-05-15 17:33:15 <bitexchanger> Sent. Thanks for your help
1762 2013-05-15 17:33:19 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1763 2013-05-15 17:33:19 <gmaxwell> bitexchanger: thanks!
1764 2013-05-15 17:34:04 <bitexchanger> I always tip because I know the information can be found if I stopped being so lazy and just looked it up myself. So I consider this a paying-worthy service to come in here with questions :D
1765 2013-05-15 17:34:22 <bitexchanger> G'day sirs!
1766 2013-05-15 17:34:25 bitexchanger has left ()
1767 2013-05-15 17:34:34 triciam has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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1769 2013-05-15 17:36:21 drizztbsd has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1770 2013-05-15 17:37:18 <Julius129> ^ is what makes bitcoin so awesome :)
1771 2013-05-15 17:37:55 sfraise has joined
1772 2013-05-15 17:38:25 zz_highPriestLOL is now known as highPriestLOL
1773 2013-05-15 17:38:31 <gmaxwell> It's fun to use too. I miss a couple years ago when people were more liberal with sending around bitcoin here and there, it was a lot of fun.
1774 2013-05-15 17:39:48 <sfraise> check out the web developer and the burger king drive through assistant project manager cartoons part 1 http://goanimate.com/videos/0uFMhKqd818A
1775 2013-05-15 17:39:51 <sfraise> part 2 http://goanimate.com/videos/0g2Yatb2lF7w
1776 2013-05-15 17:40:01 vigilyn2 has joined
1777 2013-05-15 17:40:03 <sfraise> part 3 http://goanimate.com/videos/0HtRk-niR5Xg
1778 2013-05-15 17:40:13 vigilyn has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1779 2013-05-15 17:40:15 <sfraise> part 4 http://goanimate.com/videos/0QpvPHzVQSvU
1780 2013-05-15 17:40:23 <sfraise> part 5 http://goanimate.com/videos/0pK77loaodTc
1781 2013-05-15 17:40:34 Hasimir has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1782 2013-05-15 17:40:35 <sfraise> part 6 http://goanimate.com/videos/0CIW9tjDJ-YA
1783 2013-05-15 17:40:56 <gmaxwell> sfraise: whats that have to do with this channel?
1784 2013-05-15 17:41:12 da2ce7_d has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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1798 2013-05-15 17:50:39 <MC1984_> hmm i rather wish processblock output gave the size of the incoming block
1799 2013-05-15 17:51:00 SteveDekorte has joined
1800 2013-05-15 17:51:10 <MC1984_> would make sitting here and watching it a bit more interesting
1801 2013-05-15 17:51:42 <sipa> MC1984_: feel free to implement that :)
1802 2013-05-15 17:51:50 <sipa> should be 1-line change
1803 2013-05-15 17:51:52 <MC1984_> sometimes i also sit on the kitchen floor and watch the spin cycle
1804 2013-05-15 17:52:10 PhantomSpark has joined
1805 2013-05-15 17:52:12 <MC1984_> sipa ive heard that before.......
1806 2013-05-15 17:52:22 <nsh> just flip random bits on executable code blocks until it works they way you want
1807 2013-05-15 17:52:27 melvster2 has joined
1808 2013-05-15 17:52:27 <nsh> time passes even quicker
1809 2013-05-15 17:52:33 <MC1984_> ive actually got git installed and everything.......
1810 2013-05-15 17:52:56 toffoo has joined
1811 2013-05-15 17:53:03 <sneak> hi
1812 2013-05-15 17:53:09 <sneak> who's going to the conference in SB?
1813 2013-05-15 17:53:16 <sneak> i'm thinking of buying a ticket
1814 2013-05-15 17:53:18 newbquestion has joined
1815 2013-05-15 17:53:29 <sipa> san bose?
1816 2013-05-15 17:53:51 shurnormal has joined
1817 2013-05-15 17:54:43 <newbquestion> is their a client side (like java script only) while not connected to the internet ... that can verify a btc address is correct ?
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1819 2013-05-15 17:55:16 <nsh> what do you mean by correct, newbquestion?
1820 2013-05-15 17:55:26 nidefawl has joined
1821 2013-05-15 17:55:50 <newbquestion> nsh: aah ... is valid (not necessarily used)
1822 2013-05-15 17:56:33 <newbquestion> in other words ...paste your bitcoin address here ... validations says ...that is not valid ...please try again ??
1823 2013-05-15 17:56:36 nanotube has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1824 2013-05-15 17:56:46 <nsh> ok, yes that's just mathematics
1825 2013-05-15 17:56:54 <nsh> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/2564/how-to-validate-a-bitcoin-address-is-a-real-one
1826 2013-05-15 17:57:27 icellan has joined
1827 2013-05-15 17:57:45 <newbquestion> bookmarked ...thank you ... i imagine that the same link holds true for the "private key" ?
1828 2013-05-15 17:58:52 <newbquestion> [test - did i crash again]
1829 2013-05-15 17:59:38 highPriestLOL is now known as zz_highPriestLOL
1830 2013-05-15 17:59:39 <gonffen> no
1831 2013-05-15 17:59:42 <nsh> you're still here
1832 2013-05-15 17:59:42 <nsh> Nearly every 256-bit number is a valid private key. Specifically, any 256-bit number between 0x1 and 0xFFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFE BAAE DCE6 AF48 A03B BFD2 5E8C D036 4141 is a valid private key.
1833 2013-05-15 17:59:43 nizeguy has joined
1834 2013-05-15 17:59:45 <nsh> -https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Private_key
1835 2013-05-15 18:01:00 sacrelege has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1836 2013-05-15 18:01:09 <newbquestion> you guys are awesome
1837 2013-05-15 18:01:20 <newbquestion> nsh: post address for btc donation please
1838 2013-05-15 18:01:32 <sipa> nsh: it's wrong
1839 2013-05-15 18:01:37 <sipa> nsh: ....4141 isn't valid
1840 2013-05-15 18:01:44 <sipa> up to 4140 only
1841 2013-05-15 18:01:47 <newbquestion> sipa: you too post address for btc donation
1842 2013-05-15 18:01:55 <sipa> no need
1843 2013-05-15 18:02:15 <newbquestion> its how you help the community imo
1844 2013-05-15 18:02:27 <nsh> (wiki is wrong)
1845 2013-05-15 18:02:41 <nsh> or, english is ambiguous when expressing ranges
1846 2013-05-15 18:02:45 <nsh> more accurately :)
1847 2013-05-15 18:02:55 <gonffen> is 0x1 valid?
1848 2013-05-15 18:02:59 <newbquestion> nsh: oh ...will consider that when reading the wiki
1849 2013-05-15 18:03:42 dooglus has joined
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1854 2013-05-15 18:05:16 <newbquestion> i am just going to store public btc address ... NOT private keys ...do not need the technical ... just a simple way to validate ... this address is correct (no extra spaces while edit copying from wallet etc )
1855 2013-05-15 18:05:59 <newbquestion> nsh: please post a btc address i can donate to
1856 2013-05-15 18:06:06 <newbquestion> or suggest a mod or someone else
1857 2013-05-15 18:06:14 icellan has quit (Quit: icellan)
1858 2013-05-15 18:06:20 <nsh> ;;botsnack
1859 2013-05-15 18:06:20 <gribble> Forget the snack, just send me some bitcoins at 1MgD6rah5zUgEGYZnNmdpnXMaDR3itKYzU :)
1860 2013-05-15 18:06:34 <newbquestion> i am just buying you a beer ...omg i am not sending thousands of dollars
1861 2013-05-15 18:06:36 nsillik has joined
1862 2013-05-15 18:06:49 * nsh doesn't have any bitcoin addresses :)
1863 2013-05-15 18:07:06 <jgarzik> gah
1864 2013-05-15 18:07:10 * jgarzik kicks xchat.
1865 2013-05-15 18:07:26 <newbquestion> nsh: go get one its simple ...bitaddress.org
1866 2013-05-15 18:07:28 <jgarzik> No idea who was messaging me, thanks to weird new colors
1867 2013-05-15 18:07:41 <nsh> jgarzik, sounds annoying
1868 2013-05-15 18:07:50 <newbquestion> you can have in seconds even before you have a wallet ...correct guys ?
1869 2013-05-15 18:08:06 <nsh> newbquestion, i'm fine, thanks anyway; pay it forward :)
1870 2013-05-15 18:08:07 nanotube has joined
1871 2013-05-15 18:08:19 <newbquestion> kk ...buying gribble a beer
1872 2013-05-15 18:08:28 <nsh> :)
1873 2013-05-15 18:09:08 eklass has joined
1874 2013-05-15 18:09:45 <newbquestion> [checking current price mtgox = slow]
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1885 2013-05-15 18:12:33 <newbquestion> @gribble: sent ....02 btc
1886 2013-05-15 18:12:59 eklass is now known as eklas
1887 2013-05-15 18:13:02 eklas is now known as eklass
1888 2013-05-15 18:13:53 <newbquestion> before i get back to work ... it would be nice if you guys included in the bitcoin.org wallet ... examples of what 0.02 btc equals at 50,100, and 150 current btc prices ...follow ?
1889 2013-05-15 18:14:17 santoscork has joined
1890 2013-05-15 18:14:31 <newbquestion> its scarey to new users ...all those decimal places
1891 2013-05-15 18:14:55 <newbquestion> anyone: do you know what i am talking about ?
1892 2013-05-15 18:14:59 melvster2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1893 2013-05-15 18:15:02 <nsh> there are ongoing discussions on friendly names for smaller denominations
1894 2013-05-15 18:15:17 <nsh> (they are RIVETING)
1895 2013-05-15 18:15:41 melvster2 has joined
1896 2013-05-15 18:15:47 <gonffen> newbquestion: you mean like 0.02*50 0.02*100 and 0.02*150?
1897 2013-05-15 18:15:50 <newbquestion> something like .... if btc is worth $100 usd currently ... you would be sending approximately ... $2.50 cents ...are you sure??
1898 2013-05-15 18:16:03 <nsh> apropos: http://blog.xkcd.com/2013/05/15/dictionary-of-numbers/
1899 2013-05-15 18:16:17 CodeShark has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1900 2013-05-15 18:16:20 <newbquestion> gonffen: yes ... many ppl that use money can not do math
1901 2013-05-15 18:16:21 <nsh> you could write a browser extension pretty easily that would add such into to any bitcoin amount
1902 2013-05-15 18:17:36 <newbquestion> nsh: i barely have time to get my btc website going ...just a suggestion to make bitcoin easier and more popular to the devs
1903 2013-05-15 18:18:05 Mr_G has joined
1904 2013-05-15 18:18:34 <gonffen> newbquestion: do they have prices in rubbles at the grocery store?
1905 2013-05-15 18:18:46 graingert has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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1907 2013-05-15 18:19:06 <gonffen> I don't think you'll convince the devs to do that...
1908 2013-05-15 18:19:10 cads has joined
1909 2013-05-15 18:19:30 <newbquestion> gonffen: no but some are taking SLL currency [lawl]
1910 2013-05-15 18:20:14 <nsh> newbquestion, right :)
1911 2013-05-15 18:20:26 <newbquestion> gonffen: why "not convince" ?
1912 2013-05-15 18:20:27 zz_highPriestLOL is now known as highPriestLOL
1913 2013-05-15 18:20:43 <newbquestion> nsh: newb compared to you guys but studying hard and fast bro
1914 2013-05-15 18:21:05 <nsh> velocity is more important than position in the long term :)
1915 2013-05-15 18:21:52 <newbquestion> i am getting there ... I am above average understanding now ... and improving
1916 2013-05-15 18:22:00 <gonffen> it seems like an irrational thing to do for a currency
1917 2013-05-15 18:22:08 <gonffen> I know some of the wallet software provides tickers
1918 2013-05-15 18:22:26 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1919 2013-05-15 18:22:28 <newbquestion> personally ...hang on phone
1920 2013-05-15 18:23:50 toffoo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1921 2013-05-15 18:24:29 <sipa> newbquestion: how would the application know the exchange rate?
1922 2013-05-15 18:25:00 toffoo has joined
1923 2013-05-15 18:25:20 <sipa> without relying on a centralized service
1924 2013-05-15 18:27:20 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
1925 2013-05-15 18:27:29 <gmaxwell> $/BTC = 120*e^(($JD-2456428)/365)
1926 2013-05-15 18:27:42 pZombie has left ()
1927 2013-05-15 18:27:42 <HM2> 42
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1929 2013-05-15 18:28:05 fellowtraveler has joined
1930 2013-05-15 18:28:32 ProfMac has joined
1931 2013-05-15 18:28:41 <fellowtraveler> Hi all! I'm about to hit the hay, but I thought I'd drop a link here for the latest OT announcement:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=206332.msg2158428#msg2158428
1932 2013-05-15 18:29:00 <newbquestion> sipa: just a screen what do YOU THINK current price of btc is ... THEN ... this is the USD, CDN or EURO approx ...
1933 2013-05-15 18:29:47 <gonffen> so you're asking for a calculator?
1934 2013-05-15 18:29:54 <newbquestion> sipa: you sure i can not buy you a beer too ... you have answered many questions i believe over the last month or two
1935 2013-05-15 18:30:32 <newbquestion> gonffen: just saying ... even for me ... i need to double check with a calculator outside of my bitcoin.org wallet
1936 2013-05-15 18:30:51 nizeguy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1937 2013-05-15 18:31:41 <tonikt> if sipa got a bier for any question he answered, he'd probably be dead by now :)
1938 2013-05-15 18:31:59 <newbquestion> lol
1939 2013-05-15 18:32:52 <newbquestion> gonffen: yes and example calculator
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1944 2013-05-15 18:33:55 nizeguy has joined
1945 2013-05-15 18:36:28 <newbquestion> [lurking to learn - php is hurting my brain]
1946 2013-05-15 18:37:10 <sipa> newbquestion: it's not too late
1947 2013-05-15 18:37:19 <sipa> you can still switch to a programming language instead
1948 2013-05-15 18:37:22 santoscork has quit (Quit: Quiet while I make like a cat)
1949 2013-05-15 18:38:22 <TD> lol
1950 2013-05-15 18:38:24 <TD> burned
1951 2013-05-15 18:38:27 <newbquestion> sipa: was studying java ...but php is so widely adopted why do i want to re-invent the wheel
1952 2013-05-15 18:38:37 <TD> php is more of a square than a wheel
1953 2013-05-15 18:39:22 <newbquestion> TD: see that is why my nickname ...you guys are way more then I am
1954 2013-05-15 18:39:27 <TD> :-)
1955 2013-05-15 18:40:11 <newbquestion> i do have a skill set as of understanding the newb and making it easy to understand and join
1956 2013-05-15 18:40:23 <Ry4an> newbquestion: this isn't the place for a language debate, and plenty of great things have been built using php, etc., but if this doesn't sway you nothign will: http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/
1957 2013-05-15 18:41:15 richcollins has joined
1958 2013-05-15 18:42:33 <newbquestion> Ry4an: book marked ... i do not know what to study yet for my "new" career ...php java C++ etc ...but i do need one... i am a quick study ..last website 5 years ago took me 2 weeks to learn php ...forgot it all
1959 2013-05-15 18:42:48 fellowtraveler has left ()
1960 2013-05-15 18:44:17 <newbquestion> Ry4an: i always found it funny that people say they "code html" ...lol
1961 2013-05-15 18:45:04 nsillik_ has joined
1962 2013-05-15 18:45:48 <Ry4an> newbquestion: I used to raise an eyebrow at "code html" too, but a _good_ modern HTML+CSS person is an astounding programmer who understands inheritence, composition, and a lot of other stuff.  Even if they're not touching a javascript layer I'm willing to concede they're coders.
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1967 2013-05-15 18:47:27 <newbquestion> Ry4an: throw in xml and sql .... yeppers ... it takes experience and you need to be up to date ....agreed
1968 2013-05-15 18:49:22 <newbquestion> Ry4an: thats exactly why i am going with wordpress and buddypress for the basics of my bitcoin project ...why do I want to learn all this stuff when I can just customize it?
1969 2013-05-15 18:49:58 <newbquestion> apache on linux ...kk ...lets go ...imo
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1972 2013-05-15 18:52:27 <newbquestion> the bitcoin system is open source ...i am going open source with the entire website and with FULL kudos of where to donate and contribute
1973 2013-05-15 18:53:39 <newbquestion> there are too many tech savy people like in this room that can take apart a "rebranded" website and destroy this little project I am hoping will help my income somewhat
1974 2013-05-15 18:54:15 rushed has quit (Quit: rushed)
1975 2013-05-15 18:55:00 <newbquestion> i am not changing my wordpress login ... it will still say Wordpress ... what do you guys think as developers ?
1976 2013-05-15 18:55:33 <newbquestion> or is this the wrong room to ask that type of question ?
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1987 2013-05-15 19:01:21 <sipa> newbquestion: this channel is mostly about bitcoin client development, or answering more specific technicap questions about bitcoin
1988 2013-05-15 19:01:42 <newbquestion> [jumping to bitcoin-otc ...to lurk and learn and the plumber gets here]
1989 2013-05-15 19:02:22 <newbquestion> sipa: kk ...take care ...wish i could buy you a btc beer ...please post  a donation address
1990 2013-05-15 19:03:03 <newbquestion> [waiting]
1991 2013-05-15 19:04:14 <newbquestion> POOF
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2055 2013-05-15 20:19:38 <etotheipi_> ThomasV: does Electrum use Type1 or Type2 deterministic wallets?
2056 2013-05-15 20:20:02 <ThomasV> type 2
2057 2013-05-15 20:20:07 <ThomasV> of course
2058 2013-05-15 20:20:23 <etotheipi_> ThomasV: just making sure.... https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Deterministic_wallet is rather vague for both of us
2059 2013-05-15 20:20:27 <etotheipi_> I was thinking of updating it
2060 2013-05-15 20:20:38 <ThomasV> ok
2061 2013-05-15 20:21:22 <ThomasV> oh yes, they list armory and electrum in separate sections
2062 2013-05-15 20:21:24 <ThomasV> lol
2063 2013-05-15 20:21:52 <etotheipi_> And they're both very short on specifics
2064 2013-05-15 20:22:36 <ThomasV> well, I hope we soon jump into bip thirty two
2065 2013-05-15 20:23:03 <ThomasV> so this page will be simplified
2066 2013-05-15 20:24:58 <sipa> ThomasV, etotheipi_: you're both ok with the current version of BIP32?
2067 2013-05-15 20:25:17 <etotheipi_> sipa: yes
2068 2013-05-15 20:25:25 <ThomasV> sipa: I'm not expert enough to judge
2069 2013-05-15 20:25:32 <michagogo> In a deterministic wallet, if two people anywhere happen to choose the same passphrase they end up with the same wallet, right?
2070 2013-05-15 20:25:45 <sipa> michagogo: deterministic wallet != brainwallet
2071 2013-05-15 20:25:58 <michagogo> sipa: That's what I was asking
2072 2013-05-15 20:26:26 <sipa> it's not really applicable
2073 2013-05-15 20:26:26 <gmaxwell> I propose we use the term IW  or IncompetentWallet to refer to those. :P
2074 2013-05-15 20:26:30 <ThomasV> sipa: brainwallet != user-choose-their-passphrase-wallet
2075 2013-05-15 20:26:31 <michagogo> What's different, though?
2076 2013-05-15 20:26:36 <sipa> ThomasV: agree
2077 2013-05-15 20:26:50 <sipa> michagogo: deterministic wallet simply means that the keys are generated deterministically
2078 2013-05-15 20:27:00 <sipa> michagogo: it doesn't mean that there is no wallet file, for example
2079 2013-05-15 20:27:09 <michagogo> Hmm?
2080 2013-05-15 20:27:12 <gmaxwell> and can be deterministically generated from a cryptographically strong large random value.
2081 2013-05-15 20:27:13 <etotheipi_> michagogo:  deterministic wallets are wallets that are stored on your hard-drive, *encrypted* with your password
2082 2013-05-15 20:27:13 <sipa> only that a copy of the file would generate the same keys
2083 2013-05-15 20:27:22 <michagogo> Ahhhh
2084 2013-05-15 20:27:27 <etotheipi_> michagogo: brain wallets are wallets that are actually *seeded* from your password
2085 2013-05-15 20:27:37 <michagogo> So it creates a random seed
2086 2013-05-15 20:27:43 <sipa> michagogo: you can *seed* a deterministic wallet using a brainwallet, meaning that the entire wallet gets to be derived from that seed
2087 2013-05-15 20:27:53 <michagogo> Meaning that you just need to backup once
2088 2013-05-15 20:28:09 <sipa> and then there's the idiotic version where the brainwallet's seed is chosen by a human
2089 2013-05-15 20:28:19 <michagogo> I see.
2090 2013-05-15 20:28:22 cads has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2091 2013-05-15 20:28:24 <michagogo> (I think)
2092 2013-05-15 20:29:16 <sipa> so choose-your-own-passphrase < brainwallet < deterministic wallet < wallet
2093 2013-05-15 20:29:25 <sipa> (with '<' meaning 'is a subset of')
2094 2013-05-15 20:29:41 <michagogo> Ah.
2095 2013-05-15 20:30:13 <michagogo> So a deterministic wallet just means that you can back it up once and not need to update the backups?
2096 2013-05-15 20:30:28 <sipa> ThomasV: not asking you to judge the security (though comments are certainly welcome), but perhaps some things aren't clear or whatever
2097 2013-05-15 20:30:33 <sipa> michagogo: indeed
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2100 2013-05-15 20:31:51 <ThomasV> sipa: well, I can confirm that addition is faster :) the difference matters with python
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2103 2013-05-15 20:32:05 <sipa> ThomasV: i can imagine
2104 2013-05-15 20:32:26 jtimon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2105 2013-05-15 20:32:31 <sipa> (i've been using a python implementation of secp256k1 while writing my libsecp256k1, for comparison)
2106 2013-05-15 20:33:31 <ThomasV> what's the highest bit test for?
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2108 2013-05-15 20:33:42 <sipa> private/public derivation
2109 2013-05-15 20:33:49 <sipa> ?
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2113 2013-05-15 20:34:02 <ThomasV> I mean this is new
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2115 2013-05-15 20:34:06 <sipa> yes
2116 2013-05-15 20:34:28 <sipa> first level derivations are type-1 now
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2118 2013-05-15 20:34:50 <ThomasV> oh
2119 2013-05-15 20:34:55 pacpac has joined
2120 2013-05-15 20:35:02 <sipa> (and they are possible everywhere)
2121 2013-05-15 20:35:55 <ThomasV> hmmm
2122 2013-05-15 20:37:19 <ThomasV> that means it's no longer possible to share the entire public tree with a master public key
2123 2013-05-15 20:37:57 <sipa> indeed
2124 2013-05-15 20:38:29 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
2125 2013-05-15 20:38:34 <ThomasV> are there other implications?
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2127 2013-05-15 20:39:26 <sipa> master extended public key + any child private key isn't a risk anymore
2128 2013-05-15 20:39:36 <nsh> sipa, what language are you writing libsecp256k1 in?
2129 2013-05-15 20:39:48 <nsh> +indefinite article
2130 2013-05-15 20:39:49 <sipa> nsh: C
2131 2013-05-15 20:39:59 <nsh> ah, cool
2132 2013-05-15 20:40:07 <sipa> github.com/sipa/secp256k1
2133 2013-05-15 20:40:13 <nsh> ty
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2135 2013-05-15 20:40:32 <nsh> is this part of a larger project?
2136 2013-05-15 20:40:36 <ThomasV> sipa: no risk at all, or is the risk contained in one branch?
2137 2013-05-15 20:40:48 <sipa> ThomasV: one branch
2138 2013-05-15 20:40:54 <sipa> nsh: bitcoin :)
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2141 2013-05-15 20:41:15 <nsh> sipa, i've heard of that... something to do with amazon vouchers??
2142 2013-05-15 20:41:23 <sipa> nsh: yeah, that stuff
2143 2013-05-15 20:41:23 <nsh> i mean, do you intend to implement a full node in C or something?
2144 2013-05-15 20:41:28 <sipa> nsh: no
2145 2013-05-15 20:41:31 <nsh> ok
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2147 2013-05-15 20:41:36 <sipa> i plan to get this into bitcoind
2148 2013-05-15 20:41:37 <edcba> in assembly !
2149 2013-05-15 20:42:09 <nsh> sipa, for performance, i guess?
2150 2013-05-15 20:42:12 <sipa> nsh: indeed
2151 2013-05-15 20:42:23 <sipa> nsh: >6x speedup in raw verification performance over OpenSSL
2152 2013-05-15 20:42:35 <nsh> oh, wow ok. makes a lot of sense then
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2155 2013-05-15 20:43:06 <bazyl> whoa, crowded :) hello, gents
2156 2013-05-15 20:43:12 <nsh> hi
2157 2013-05-15 20:43:45 <bazyl> I'm looking for someone that tried (successfully) building bitcoind as a part of an xcode project.
2158 2013-05-15 20:44:18 <ThomasV> sipa: another implication is that users need to enter password in order to create the addresses of a new branch
2159 2013-05-15 20:44:37 <sipa> ThomasV: hmm?
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2162 2013-05-15 20:44:56 <gmaxwell> sipa: you don't get secret data free address generation, you have to pool.
2163 2013-05-15 20:44:57 <ThomasV> since it's type 1
2164 2013-05-15 20:45:14 <sipa> ThomasV: if you don't store the subchain keys, yes
2165 2013-05-15 20:45:44 <sipa> but a 'wallet' can reasonably be a subchain, if you that fits better in your application
2166 2013-05-15 20:45:51 <ThomasV> sure :)
2167 2013-05-15 20:46:05 <ThomasV> I'm just trying to  see the implications
2168 2013-05-15 20:46:14 <sipa> but, yes, indeed
2169 2013-05-15 20:46:41 <sipa> gmaxwell: well, you probably want to pool anyway to get spending lookahead
2170 2013-05-15 20:47:07 <gmaxwell> yep.
2171 2013-05-15 20:47:08 <sipa> but yes
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2173 2013-05-15 20:47:14 <gmaxwell> Already went through that thinking.
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2176 2013-05-15 20:47:47 <sipa> ;;bc,blocks
2177 2013-05-15 20:47:47 <gribble> 236352
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2182 2013-05-15 20:49:13 <k00shi> bazyl: I am also looking for some help with that.
2183 2013-05-15 20:49:28 <k00shi> bazyl: Are you making an iPhone app?
2184 2013-05-15 20:49:40 <bazyl> k00shi: no, mac os x one
2185 2013-05-15 20:49:56 cyphase has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2186 2013-05-15 20:49:59 <sipa> k00shi: using bitcoind code on a mobile device is insane, imho
2187 2013-05-15 20:50:00 <bazyl> I'm getting slowly there, but the project that should be working (from github) isn't in much use :P
2188 2013-05-15 20:50:13 <bazyl> k00shi, sipa: I agree :)
2189 2013-05-15 20:50:20 <k00shi> sipa: Because of the blockchain size?
2190 2013-05-15 20:50:46 <sipa> storage, memory, CPU, network, ...
2191 2013-05-15 20:50:57 <k00shi> Well, I'm trying to make a Mac app actually. Just wondered if he was making an iPhone app.
2192 2013-05-15 20:51:03 <sipa> all reasons for wanting an SPV-level node on a phone
2193 2013-05-15 20:51:05 <JDuke128> SPVBlockChain is good for mobile app ?
2194 2013-05-15 20:51:12 <sipa> JDuke128: yes
2195 2013-05-15 20:51:20 <sipa> (i think)
2196 2013-05-15 20:51:32 <JDuke128> whats the disadvantage of using SPV on Server or Desktop ?
2197 2013-05-15 20:51:33 <k00shi> Java?
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2199 2013-05-15 20:51:47 <jouke> sipa: well, my smartphone is almost as powerfull as my home PC ;X
2200 2013-05-15 20:51:52 <sipa> JDuke128: no validation of transactions
2201 2013-05-15 20:52:09 <TD> JDuke128: you need to read the bitcoinj documentation
2202 2013-05-15 20:52:10 <TD> please do so
2203 2013-05-15 20:52:12 <JDuke128> the advantage of H2FullPrunedBlockStore ?oh
2204 2013-05-15 20:52:14 <TD> all these questions are answered there
2205 2013-05-15 20:52:21 <JDuke128> hmm
2206 2013-05-15 20:52:25 <TD> asking on IRC is only appropriate if the documentation doesn't explain something.
2207 2013-05-15 20:52:30 <JDuke128> i read docs but these are tricks
2208 2013-05-15 20:52:31 <k00shi> Is it even possible to make iPhone apps that use Java components?
2209 2013-05-15 20:52:34 <sipa> jouke: then you probably shouldn't be running a full node on your PC :)
2210 2013-05-15 20:52:39 <JDuke128> docs doesn't explain all
2211 2013-05-15 20:52:39 <TD> they are not tricks
2212 2013-05-15 20:52:43 <jouke> Point taken.
2213 2013-05-15 20:52:46 <TD> the docs explain the answers to all the questions you are asking
2214 2013-05-15 20:53:19 <k00shi> bazyl: What kind of errors are you getting?
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2216 2013-05-15 20:54:37 <JDuke128> TD , my simple app is that : http://pastie.org/7909577 this always returns "0 BTC" although i ve bit coins in wallet.Another problem is …  although i send btc to my wallet from other app , onCoinsReceived is called but inside that , onConfidenceChanged is never called.Why this can be happen on this code?
2217 2013-05-15 20:55:02 <JDuke128> i donno why wallet shows 0 BTC although i ve 0.2 BTC
2218 2013-05-15 20:56:11 <bazyl> k00shi: I'm trying to follo instructions found here: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/793/what-are-the-steps-in-building-bitcoind-on-mac-os-x-10-6/1314#1314
2219 2013-05-15 20:56:40 <bazyl> k00shi: it seems that that's not all. I know I have to use gcc instead of llvm, because boost is not usable with llvm, for strange reasons
2220 2013-05-15 20:57:08 <bazyl> k00shi: after few fixes I see that not ALL compile files should be included (that's only one of 177 errors I've got now)
2221 2013-05-15 20:58:13 <k00shi> I'm having similar problems :(
2222 2013-05-15 20:58:16 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2223 2013-05-15 20:58:35 <k00shi> I assume you're using the latest XCode?
2224 2013-05-15 20:58:42 <bazyl> k00shi: yep
2225 2013-05-15 20:59:37 <bazyl> k00shi: for some reason even adding berkleys db4 include paths to searchpaths in the project isn't enough for xcode to localize db_cxx.h header file (which is there). Strange.
2226 2013-05-15 21:01:30 <k00shi> I'm thinking of emailing Gavin to see if he has any ideas. Hate to do that though, busy as he must be.
2227 2013-05-15 21:01:48 <sipa> there are sometimes people here who do osx builds for themself
2228 2013-05-15 21:01:56 <sipa> so sticking around may help
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2231 2013-05-15 21:02:37 <k00shi> Will do. :)
2232 2013-05-15 21:02:44 <k00shi> sipa: Do you remember any names?
2233 2013-05-15 21:03:04 <sipa> sorry, no
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2259 2013-05-15 21:24:05 <bazyl> hey
2260 2013-05-15 21:24:08 <Luke-Jr> thoughts on making transactions with multiple outputs to the same script, non-standard?
2261 2013-05-15 21:24:54 resinate has quit (Quit: resinate)
2262 2013-05-15 21:25:07 <sipa> any specific reason?
2263 2013-05-15 21:25:10 Chamunks has joined
2264 2013-05-15 21:25:14 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I'd say we should but I can't see what doing that _gains_ anyone.
2265 2013-05-15 21:25:19 bazyl has quit (Quit: frikkin xcode.)
2266 2013-05-15 21:25:35 <sipa> i'd rather not make things non-standard just because they look pointless
2267 2013-05-15 21:25:35 <gmaxwell> I mean, there really isn't any motivation to create such transactions for stupid purposes...
2268 2013-05-15 21:26:30 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: https://blockchain.info/tx/98fd3079b32556f647b54ae92b0593a2f703b1e563b909d9dfe8503fb667f05b?show_adv=true
2269 2013-05-15 21:26:38 <Luke-Jr> sipa: ^
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2273 2013-05-15 21:27:05 <gmaxwell> if thats what I think it is... it's already non-standard due to dustness.
2274 2013-05-15 21:27:21 <Luke-Jr> true, but sigh
2275 2013-05-15 21:27:53 <sipa> 100 KiB...
2276 2013-05-15 21:27:57 <sipa> sorry, 100 kB
2277 2013-05-15 21:29:08 <MoALTz> might have been a test to see whether a bug would generate more btc?
2278 2013-05-15 21:29:09 <Luke-Jr> and here I thought I was mining a many-txid block
2279 2013-05-15 21:29:21 <Luke-Jr> MoALTz: ever hear of testnet?
2280 2013-05-15 21:29:30 <MoALTz> Luke-Jr: yes, but they might not have
2281 2013-05-15 21:29:50 <sipa> looks like someone deliberately creating dust
2282 2013-05-15 21:30:08 <ezdiy> yup
2283 2013-05-15 21:30:11 <sipa> (which they could probably just as easily do to different addresses)
2284 2013-05-15 21:30:12 <ezdiy> its a trap
2285 2013-05-15 21:30:21 <[Tycho]> Or generating gift certificates.... (thought that would require different addresses)
2286 2013-05-15 21:30:28 <phantomcircuit> Total Input 0.01998 BTC Fees 0.01264 BTC
2287 2013-05-15 21:30:34 <phantomcircuit> i would say that worked just fine
2288 2013-05-15 21:30:36 <ezdiy> just tried to spend some of those outputs
2289 2013-05-15 21:30:41 Bwild_ has quit (Quit: leaving)
2290 2013-05-15 21:31:37 Bwild has joined
2291 2013-05-15 21:31:42 <warren> phantomcircuit: $2 to store garbage on tens of thousands of hard drives around the world.  Win.
2292 2013-05-15 21:31:50 melvster2 has joined
2293 2013-05-15 21:32:11 <[Tycho]> It was sent by some enemy of "dexog" ?
2294 2013-05-15 21:32:20 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
2295 2013-05-15 21:32:23 <ezdiy> its a public address
2296 2013-05-15 21:32:28 <ezdiy> correct horse battery staple
2297 2013-05-15 21:32:28 <Luke-Jr> [Tycho]: unknown
2298 2013-05-15 21:33:06 XertroV has joined
2299 2013-05-15 21:33:34 * nsh blinks until the horse battery staples make sense
2300 2013-05-15 21:34:55 <tumak> http://blockchain.info/address/1JwSSubhmg6iPtRjtyqhUYYH7bZg3Lfy1T?offset=50&filter=0
2301 2013-05-15 21:36:23 savetheinternet has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2302 2013-05-15 21:36:50 <ezdiy> maybe its guerilla advertising campaign by brainwallet.org
2303 2013-05-15 21:37:23 <EPiSKiNG-> Good job eligus for allowing an 845KB block. ;)
2304 2013-05-15 21:37:31 <Luke-Jr> ezdiy: which address is public?
2305 2013-05-15 21:37:32 XertroV has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2306 2013-05-15 21:37:33 <EPiSKiNG-> http://blockchain.info/block-index/383282/000000000000007ebb13150c5124de90c967932175086d595fbe17434c4442b8
2307 2013-05-15 21:37:44 <Luke-Jr> EPiSKiNG-: not enough unique txids tho
2308 2013-05-15 21:37:46 <ezdiy> Luke-Jr: 1JwSSubhmg6iPtRjtyqhUYYH7bZg3Lfy1T
2309 2013-05-15 21:38:03 <EPiSKiNG-> Luke-Jr: so it'll be orphaned?
2310 2013-05-15 21:38:08 <ezdiy> privkey 5KJvsngHeMpm884wtkJNzQGaCErckhHJBGFsvd3VyK5qMZXj3hS
2311 2013-05-15 21:38:10 <Luke-Jr> EPiSKiNG-: no
2312 2013-05-15 21:38:31 whiterabbit has joined
2313 2013-05-15 21:38:38 <ThomasV> tumak: wow
2314 2013-05-15 21:39:07 <Luke-Jr> ;;rate dexog -10 Bitcoin address is of a known private key. This could be anyone.
2315 2013-05-15 21:39:07 <gribble> Error: For identification purposes, you must be authenticated to use the rating system.
2316 2013-05-15 21:39:39 <Luke-Jr> ;;rate dexog -10 Auth bitcoin address is of a known private key. This could be anyone.
2317 2013-05-15 21:39:41 <gribble> Rating entry successful. Your rating of -10 for user dexog has been recorded.
2318 2013-05-15 21:40:29 <ezdiy> unsure if brainwallet.org is to blame
2319 2013-05-15 21:40:51 <JyZyXEL> viwing his transactions just crashed my mozilla
2320 2013-05-15 21:40:59 <ezdiy> i mean, people with no understanding of xkcd and how it works in general should *not* be using it at all, right?
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2326 2013-05-15 21:43:57 <MoALTz> i successfully caught the target prey in my latest game of "hunt the paper"
2327 2013-05-15 21:44:24 <MoALTz> the paper describing yao's grabled circuits
2328 2013-05-15 21:44:56 <nsh> link?
2329 2013-05-15 21:45:19 <MoALTz> http://www.csee.wvu.edu/~xinl/library/papers/comp/Yao1986.pdf
2330 2013-05-15 21:45:32 <MoALTz> *garbled
2331 2013-05-15 21:46:05 <MoALTz> also wrong channel, but still might be an interesting read for some of you
2332 2013-05-15 21:46:37 seeingidog__ has joined
2333 2013-05-15 21:46:37 <nsh> thanks
2334 2013-05-15 21:46:55 DaQatz has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2335 2013-05-15 21:47:00 <nsh> 1986?? secrets weren't even invented until the 90s
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2339 2013-05-15 21:49:50 <nsh> MoALTz, interestingly it seems Shamir's work doesn't build directly on Yao's
2340 2013-05-15 21:49:52 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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2343 2013-05-15 21:50:20 <nsh> oh, because it came first maybe
2344 2013-05-15 21:50:51 <nsh> right, yao cites shamir, i just assumed shamir's work was more recent because brainlogics
2345 2013-05-15 21:52:44 <MoALTz> i looked for yao's work because gentry's latest coauthored paper uses a combination of homomorphic encryption and yao's garbled circuits and i'm still trying to understand all of this
2346 2013-05-15 21:53:22 seeingidog__ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2347 2013-05-15 21:53:30 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
2348 2013-05-15 21:54:04 <nsh> in the context of multiparty computation?
2349 2013-05-15 21:54:15 sebicas has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2350 2013-05-15 21:54:25 <MoALTz> http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/138316/submitted-CRYPTO-2010-camera-ready.pdf    yes
2351 2013-05-15 21:54:54 <nsh> ty
2352 2013-05-15 21:55:32 <nsh> my understanding is that you can precompute using HE values that are useful in a secret-sharing system of multiparty computation that's based on garbled circuits
2353 2013-05-15 21:55:42 <nsh> (multiplications, basically)
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2355 2013-05-15 21:56:06 <nsh> so you do a bunch of this over-night and it reduces the hit you take doing live multi-party stuff
2356 2013-05-15 21:56:17 <nsh> but i should read the paper
2357 2013-05-15 21:56:39 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2358 2013-05-15 21:56:39 bazyl has joined
2359 2013-05-15 21:56:46 <nsh> ok, only tangentially related
2360 2013-05-15 21:57:05 <bazyl> Just came in to inform - I know how to do it ;) I know how to compile that thing to work with XCode. If someone would need that knowledge :P
2361 2013-05-15 21:57:35 bazyl has quit (Client Quit)
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2363 2013-05-15 22:03:00 <k00shi> bazyl: Oh? What did you do? :)
2364 2013-05-15 22:03:47 XertroV has joined
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2369 2013-05-15 22:09:53 <nsh> k00shi, he mixed the lime with the coconut and drank 'em both up
2370 2013-05-15 22:10:28 <nsh> (you'll thank me later)
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2374 2013-05-15 22:13:17 <michagogo> nsh: o_O
2375 2013-05-15 22:14:04 <jspilman> Is there a known issue with 0.8.0 / 0.8.1 running in Windows where bitcoin-qt will use max CPU after starting? It completes block chain validation and loading wallet, the splash screen disappears, but main UI takes minute+ to appear, and doesn't respond, all the while process is fully using 1 core
2376 2013-05-15 22:14:56 seeingidog__ has joined
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2380 2013-05-15 22:16:09 <sipa> jspilman: could you check what kind of messages appear / are at the end of debug.log during that 1 minute delay?
2381 2013-05-15 22:16:11 <dansmith_btc> Hi, in "vin", "vout", what does "v" stand for ?
2382 2013-05-15 22:16:12 graingert has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2383 2013-05-15 22:16:18 <sipa> dansmith_btc: vector
2384 2013-05-15 22:17:05 <dansmith_btc> sipa, like a C++ <vector>?
2385 2013-05-15 22:17:17 <sipa> dansmith_btc: yes
2386 2013-05-15 22:17:27 Jasmin68k has joined
2387 2013-05-15 22:17:34 <jspilman> sipa: appears to be processing tx's and blocks just fine while UI is hung
2388 2013-05-15 22:17:36 graingert has joined
2389 2013-05-15 22:17:41 <sipa> dansmith_btc: satoshi used a strange coding style where variables got names with prefixes relating to types
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2393 2013-05-15 22:18:02 <sipa> vin just means "vector of CTxIn objects"
2394 2013-05-15 22:18:35 <dansmith_btc> sipa, thanks
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2396 2013-05-15 22:19:44 FredEE has joined
2397 2013-05-15 22:19:58 <sipa> jspilman: can you paste me ~5 consecutive lines?
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2435 2013-05-15 23:01:04 <jgarzik> ah hah
2436 2013-05-15 23:01:10 <jgarzik> so there was a big block: http://blockchain.info/block-index/383282/000000000000007ebb13150c5124de90c967932175086d595fbe17434c4442b8
2437 2013-05-15 23:01:13 <jgarzik> by Eligius
2438 2013-05-15 23:01:32 <sipa> forking?
2439 2013-05-15 23:01:54 Chamunks has joined
2440 2013-05-15 23:01:58 dvide has quit ()
2441 2013-05-15 23:02:02 <sipa> doesn't seem so
2442 2013-05-15 23:02:06 <nsh> oO
2443 2013-05-15 23:02:08 <keystroke> no fork
2444 2013-05-15 23:02:32 <keystroke> congrats
2445 2013-05-15 23:02:40 pacpac has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2446 2013-05-15 23:02:44 <sipa> waaaay too many outputs
2447 2013-05-15 23:02:53 <sipa> forking blocks need many inputs but few outputs
2448 2013-05-15 23:02:57 <keystroke> too much input!
2449 2013-05-15 23:03:31 <jgarzik> need more input
2450 2013-05-15 23:03:34 <jgarzik> number five alive
2451 2013-05-15 23:03:45 <keystroke> :D
2452 2013-05-15 23:04:06 <sipa> ?
2453 2013-05-15 23:04:20 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: trying..
2454 2013-05-15 23:04:30 <keystroke> glad someone got that... http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091949
2455 2013-05-15 23:05:04 <kinlo> good thing that next version is making low txout's not standard :)
2456 2013-05-15 23:05:36 XertroV has joined
2457 2013-05-15 23:06:39 <flound1129> johnny five
2458 2013-05-15 23:06:46 <nsh> keystroke, why does that imdb seem to imply this was not a documentary/based on true story?!?
2459 2013-05-15 23:06:53 <nsh> why would they lie about that
2460 2013-05-15 23:06:59 <keystroke> hahaha
2461 2013-05-15 23:07:09 * nsh pens sternly-worded letter
2462 2013-05-15 23:07:29 <MobPhone> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091949/
2463 2013-05-15 23:07:33 <MobPhone> Lol
2464 2013-05-15 23:07:53 <keystroke> johnny five requested that his true ID be kept secret as he did not want to be famous
2465 2013-05-15 23:08:35 fishfish has joined
2466 2013-05-15 23:09:19 <nsh> ah, makes sense
2467 2013-05-15 23:09:28 <nsh> he's trying to live a simple life now with biggie and 'pac
2468 2013-05-15 23:09:29 <kinlo> Luke-Jr: don't you prevent spam on your pool?
2469 2013-05-15 23:09:37 <Luke-Jr> kinlo: normally
2470 2013-05-15 23:09:51 <kinlo> how did that block got trough ? :)
2471 2013-05-15 23:09:55 XertroV has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2472 2013-05-15 23:09:59 <Luke-Jr> trying to mine a many-txid block
2473 2013-05-15 23:10:10 <Luke-Jr> so the forking doesn't happen while we're all at the conference
2474 2013-05-15 23:11:02 <kinlo> by including all spam ? :)
2475 2013-05-15 23:11:14 <Luke-Jr> by not being picky ;)
2476 2013-05-15 23:11:19 <Luke-Jr> so yes
2477 2013-05-15 23:11:22 <sipa> you'll need to be more selective about the txin/txout rate
2478 2013-05-15 23:11:31 <Luke-Jr> yeah maybe
2479 2013-05-15 23:11:39 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: just redeem all that dust.
2480 2013-05-15 23:11:40 <Luke-Jr> or at least filter the useless spam
2481 2013-05-15 23:11:49 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: someone will eventually
2482 2013-05-15 23:11:57 <kinlo> mmmz
2483 2013-05-15 23:12:07 <sipa> (though i'm not sure i want to encourage forking now, if it may mean that the actual fork is otherwise maybe even weeks ahead)
2484 2013-05-15 23:12:28 <kinlo> perhaps just include less transactions, we'll build up a queue to get a bigger block :)
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2492 2013-05-15 23:16:39 <kinlo> I'm sure if something happens during the conference, someone will fix it :)
2493 2013-05-15 23:17:21 <sipa> i don't plan on asking miners a second time to switch back to 0.7.x!
2494 2013-05-15 23:17:33 <sipa> if fork happens, so be it
2495 2013-05-15 23:19:00 <kinlo> that's not really the problem, if 0.7.x forks away, so be it
2496 2013-05-15 23:19:15 <kinlo> its more for other problems :)
2497 2013-05-15 23:19:23 <kinlo> I can't even rewind my pool :/
2498 2013-05-15 23:19:31 <kinlo> I don't have a 0.7 ready anymore
2499 2013-05-15 23:20:31 brwyatt_ is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt_
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2522 2013-05-15 23:49:59 <michagogo> Hmm, logtimestamps=true in bitcoin.conf doesn't seem to be working
2523 2013-05-15 23:50:25 <sipa> try =1
2524 2013-05-15 23:52:15 <denisx> did a fork happen?
2525 2013-05-15 23:52:23 sacrelege has joined
2526 2013-05-15 23:52:57 <sipa> not afaik
2527 2013-05-15 23:53:11 <denisx> ok
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2533 2013-05-15 23:54:53 <michagogo> BTW, would it be possible ot feasible to allow reloading of .conf without restarting the node?
2534 2013-05-15 23:55:08 <sipa> right now, preety hard to do
2535 2013-05-15 23:55:43 <michagogo> sipa: Thanks, =1 did it
2536 2013-05-15 23:55:58 <michagogo> BTW, earlier I had tried it with no =parameter
2537 2013-05-15 23:56:13 <michagogo> and got http://i.imgur.com/afsilb0.png
2538 2013-05-15 23:56:37 <sipa> oh wow
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2541 2013-05-15 23:59:32 <gmaxwell> oooohhhhh... google's ec2 killer service does per minute billing. In theory you could get 80,000 cores for 10 minutes for about $870.