1 2013-05-19 00:00:21 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, like it's a made up persona
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3 2013-05-19 00:00:41 <gmaxwell> So far I have no evidence to contradict that theory.
4 2013-05-19 00:01:41 <phantomcircuit> interesting
5 2013-05-19 00:01:59 <phantomcircuit> http://www.slideshare.net/grugq/opsec-for-hackers
6 2013-05-19 00:02:05 <copumpkin> lol, https://blockchain.info/create-double-spend
7 2013-05-19 00:02:06 <phantomcircuit> this is sort of relevant and totally amusing
8 2013-05-19 00:02:37 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: oh someone noticed!
9 2013-05-19 00:02:42 <phantomcircuit> ahah
10 2013-05-19 00:03:49 <gmaxwell> copumpkin: this was petertodds' bounty that piuk collected.
11 2013-05-19 00:04:24 <kinlo> eh
12 2013-05-19 00:04:53 <kinlo> piuk does indeed have the necessary infrastructure to create one :)
13 2013-05-19 00:05:08 <phantomcircuit> the hard part isn't creating one
14 2013-05-19 00:05:15 <kinlo> he just distributes to the major pools and not to the rest
15 2013-05-19 00:05:23 <gmaxwell> Does someone have dakami's email address I want to give him some tips that will perhaps reduce the amount of food in mouth.
16 2013-05-19 00:05:24 <phantomcircuit> the hard part is getting the transaction without the fee to your target
17 2013-05-19 00:05:27 <kinlo> he has a client connected to everyone aat the smae time
18 2013-05-19 00:05:31 <phantomcircuit> and the transaction with the fee to everybody else
19 2013-05-19 00:05:54 <kinlo> it's just a matter of distributing it correctly
20 2013-05-19 00:06:02 <gmaxwell> s/food/foot/ food belongs in mouth.
21 2013-05-19 00:06:45 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, but does mouth belong in foot?
22 2013-05-19 00:06:50 <gmaxwell> kinlo: well, at the lack of replace by fee makes it only probabilistic.
23 2013-05-19 00:07:32 <kinlo> I don't really see what fee's are doing in the discussion of double spends, you can create 2 double spends with no fee's too...
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25 2013-05-19 00:07:52 <gmaxwell> kinlo: indeed, but with replace by fee the double spend can be very reliable.
26 2013-05-19 00:08:04 <gmaxwell> (e.g. you can be confident which side will get mined)
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28 2013-05-19 00:08:11 <gmaxwell> even if you announced it a fair bit later.
29 2013-05-19 00:08:16 <kinlo> well replace by fee is disabled for that reason, no? :)
30 2013-05-19 00:08:52 <gmaxwell> s/disabled/non-existing/. But it's proposed that miners go that way.
31 2013-05-19 00:09:07 <sipa> s/disabled/not implemented/
32 2013-05-19 00:09:11 <kinlo> it's disabled in the source code, no?
33 2013-05-19 00:09:26 <kinlo> I remember reading that code :)
34 2013-05-19 00:09:41 <sipa> there is transaction replacement in general
35 2013-05-19 00:09:42 <gmaxwell> it's not that there is replacement......
36 2013-05-19 00:09:48 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i assume you're mostly at the technical talks
37 2013-05-19 00:09:56 <gmaxwell> But that is using the seq numbers.
38 2013-05-19 00:09:59 <sipa> using transaction versions and nlocktime
39 2013-05-19 00:10:11 <sipa> replace-by-fee is a step further
40 2013-05-19 00:10:26 <sipa> it means replace whatever you like, even it means financial advantage for the miner
41 2013-05-19 00:10:31 <gmaxwell> The idea is that rational miners will naturally replace that way...
42 2013-05-19 00:10:45 <sipa> (note: gmaxwell is sitting next to me)
43 2013-05-19 00:10:50 <kinlo> in any case, perhaps making doublespends easy, it would force people to only use bitcoin after the required confirmations
44 2013-05-19 00:10:58 <sipa> kinlo: that's the idea
45 2013-05-19 00:10:58 <gmaxwell> and so doing it intentionally early makes behavior less brittle... (at least thats peter todd's argumentâ I have mixed feelings)
46 2013-05-19 00:11:02 <sipa> but it's pretty radical
47 2013-05-19 00:11:07 <kinlo> imho there is no issue with double spending :)
48 2013-05-19 00:11:38 <sipa> as a miner you are entitled to any opinion that'd make you richer :p
49 2013-05-19 00:11:38 <phantomcircuit> hmm
50 2013-05-19 00:11:49 <kinlo> sipa: is it? I feel it is a problem that there is now some kind of fake security that a transaction can't be doublespent
51 2013-05-19 00:11:58 <phantomcircuit> the current network has a security property which is just accidental
52 2013-05-19 00:12:02 <sipa> kinlo: it's not fake security
53 2013-05-19 00:12:04 <gmaxwell> kinlo: see, you are in the petertodd camp then.
54 2013-05-19 00:12:09 <phantomcircuit> but it's also a usability issue for stuck transactions
55 2013-05-19 00:12:15 <sipa> but it is not guaranteed, and hard to quantify
56 2013-05-19 00:12:22 <kinlo> gmaxwell: yeah, well, I do like some of his ideas :p
57 2013-05-19 00:12:58 <gmaxwell> kinlo: miners also care that bitcoin is as valuable and usable as possible.. so thats an argument that they wouldn't do replace by fee on their own unless the High Preists of Bitcoin tell them that its kosher.
58 2013-05-19 00:13:50 <kinlo> gmaxwell: well, it's not because transactions require 5 confirmations or so in order to be called secure, that bitcoin is not valuable or usable
59 2013-05-19 00:14:20 <gmaxwell> there are degrees in everything. I'm going to sell you a soda. Do I wait for a confirm? well... whats my risk?
60 2013-05-19 00:14:32 <kinlo> in fact I prefer a clear rule that says "it is only a confirmed transaction after 5 confirmations" instead of "it's probably going to be ok, but you should wait 5 confirmations to be really sure"
61 2013-05-19 00:15:03 <kinlo> gmaxwell: I'm a strong believer for a different layer to pay soda's
62 2013-05-19 00:15:03 <gmaxwell> kinlo: we can tell people thatâ and bitcoin-qt does pretty much.. but people widely do other things and we cannot stop them
63 2013-05-19 00:15:25 <gmaxwell> (that being the 'use 6 confirms')
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66 2013-05-19 00:15:44 <kinlo> 5, 6 - that's a detail :)
67 2013-05-19 00:16:49 <gmaxwell> kinlo: yea, in any case. People make unconfirmed txn. They are not totally crazy (sometimes). Are we (the community) helping them if we help make those txn far less secure in practice so that they won't be tempted to overestimate their security?
68 2013-05-19 00:18:43 <gmaxwell> I'm talking about this not because I'm arguing itâ I feel deeply conflicted on this particular kind of subject. I see great value in reducing the gap between typical and worst behavior. ... but informal security is _most_ of the security of the world... and it has value even when we can't reason about it mathmatically and when it isn't absolutely strong
69 2013-05-19 00:18:45 <kinlo> dunno, I think the discussion should be how can we make "urgent" transactions faster instead of the 6 confirmations rule, while guaranteeing high security
70 2013-05-19 00:19:11 <gmaxwell> kinlo: well, generally the answer to that is "don't make transaction in the blockchain"â global consensus is fundimentally "slow" for some definition of slow.
71 2013-05-19 00:20:02 <kinlo> gmaxwell: that's why I strongly believe in a network on top of bitcoin that can handle those transactions in a different way
72 2013-05-19 00:20:06 <warren> static const unsigned int MAX_STANDARD_TX_SIZE = MAX_BLOCK_SIZE_GEN/5;
73 2013-05-19 00:20:20 <warren> This means 0.8.1 relays/mines tx up to 100KB in size?
74 2013-05-19 00:20:30 <kinlo> that's a large transaction...
75 2013-05-19 00:20:36 <kinlo> warren: it will require a huge fee
76 2013-05-19 00:20:41 <warren> I know
77 2013-05-19 00:20:54 <warren> well, "huge" is relative
78 2013-05-19 00:21:09 <phantomcircuit> large transactions aren't necessarily always bad
79 2013-05-19 00:21:17 <warren> didn't the dust patch protester spend like $2 in fees for a 98KB tx?
80 2013-05-19 00:21:40 <phantomcircuit> 1 large transaction vs hundreds of smaller transactions
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85 2013-05-19 00:22:29 <gmaxwell> kinlo: There are a couple complicated issues there... the systems don't existâ at least not robust onesâ, and ... we don't have a clear idea about the regulatory implications.
86 2013-05-19 00:22:52 <kinlo> gmaxwell: agreed. We still have work to do
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91 2013-05-19 00:24:17 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i think it's pretty clear that any network ontop of the normal bitcoin network which acted as a shim for unconfirmed transactions would be a money transmitter
92 2013-05-19 00:24:18 <warren> kinlo: "how can we make "urgent" transactions faster instead of the 6 confirmations rule, while guaranteeing high security" You are describing a bank.
93 2013-05-19 00:24:57 <phantomcircuit> there are a couple of ways to do guarantee transactions where you're acting as a partial escrow without transacting the actual funds
94 2013-05-19 00:25:17 <kinlo> warren: exactly. I think somethink like a bank would be a good way to handle the quick small payments
95 2013-05-19 00:25:41 <kinlo> warren: only for let's say payments below the 100$ equivalent
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97 2013-05-19 00:26:26 <warren> kinlo: a few months ago someone talked about making a IRC bot that handles micro tx between people here
98 2013-05-19 00:26:31 <gmaxwell> I don't know that anyone is working on it either. The big businesses will make "unsound" (cryptographically) systems and depend on pure trust and hope. Small entities worry that they can't overcome the regulatory hurdles.
99 2013-05-19 00:26:32 <phantomcircuit> kinlo, that would almost certainly be a regulated activity
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101 2013-05-19 00:26:59 <kinlo> phantomcircuit: possibly
102 2013-05-19 00:27:45 <kinlo> gmaxwell: well, as there is only one way to secure p2p payments, which is the blockchain - which requires a lot of time between validation, we WILL have to resort to systems depending on trust
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104 2013-05-19 00:28:09 <kinlo> warren: that seems a bit too narrow minded, a larger/more scalable system would be needed
105 2013-05-19 00:28:34 <phantomcircuit> warren, well for example the reddit tip bot is almost certainly illegal
106 2013-05-19 00:28:41 <warren> phantomcircuit: no kidding
107 2013-05-19 00:28:55 <phantomcircuit> i doubt anybody is ever going to get in trouble since it doesn't handle large amounts of money
108 2013-05-19 00:28:56 <phantomcircuit> but still
109 2013-05-19 00:29:11 <warren> phantomcircuit: does does reddit hold BTC for the users, and users withdraw it from reddit?
110 2013-05-19 00:29:14 <kinlo> phantomcircuit: is an escrow illegal?
111 2013-05-19 00:29:47 <gmaxwell> kinlo: What I'd like to see is the community creating pressure to get at least the big entities to adopt sound approaches... but this requires demo tech.
112 2013-05-19 00:29:48 <warren> kinlo: illegal if you lack MSB and MT licenses, which are mega expensive
113 2013-05-19 00:30:30 <kinlo> warren: this is the internet, not everybody needs to adhere to the rules of america
114 2013-05-19 00:30:48 <kinlo> never heard of msb and mt, and I don't need to I guess :)
115 2013-05-19 00:31:08 <phantomcircuit> warren, actually escrow is much less regulated than that
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120 2013-05-19 00:33:13 DiabloD3 is now known as Diablo-D3
121 2013-05-19 00:33:39 <phantomcircuit> warren, yes it holds balances allows for deposit/withdrawal and transfer between users
122 2013-05-19 00:33:54 <phantomcircuit> i have no idea where the person running it is located
123 2013-05-19 00:34:04 <phantomcircuit> so it's possible it's not in violation of their laws
124 2013-05-19 00:34:08 <warren> Hmm, I see MAX_STANDARD_TX_SIZE in 0.8.1. Did earlier versions of bitcoin enforce a similar limit on tx size on mainnet?
125 2013-05-19 00:34:55 <phantomcircuit> actually judging by his writing im going to assume he's american
126 2013-05-19 00:35:32 <warren> enforceability != legal
127 2013-05-19 00:36:03 <goodbtc> kinlo, seen this yet? http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1elnry/rbc_looses_business_by_ignoring_canadian/
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129 2013-05-19 00:36:52 * warren is researching a new way to disincentivize spam.
130 2013-05-19 00:37:44 <phantomcircuit> warren, sorry im not sure what you mean by that
131 2013-05-19 00:38:14 <phantomcircuit> from an enforcement perspective shutting them down would be as easy as sending a notice to Wired (who own reddit) that the tipbot was illegal
132 2013-05-19 00:39:01 <kinlo> I'm off to bed, afk
133 2013-05-19 00:39:27 <warren> phantomcircuit: it seems illegal money transmitters have their accounts seized without warning?
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136 2013-05-19 00:40:31 <phantomcircuit> warren, it depends on whether it's a business operating outside of regulatory limits or a criminal operation intentionally ignoring the rules
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140 2013-05-19 00:40:43 <phantomcircuit> the distinction is obviously entirely made by officials
141 2013-05-19 00:40:55 <goodbtc> at their discretion
142 2013-05-19 00:40:58 <phantomcircuit> the former would tend to receive a notice to compel compliance
143 2013-05-19 00:41:05 <phantomcircuit> and the later would tend to receive handcuffs
144 2013-05-19 00:41:45 <goodbtc> but, but, reddit tipbot does not use THEIR currency, how can they impose their ruling over a 'foreign' currency?
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147 2013-05-19 00:42:10 <phantomcircuit> goodbtc, lol i've actually had people make that arguement before
148 2013-05-19 00:42:43 <phantomcircuit> as if the rules stop applying because you're transacting in EUR instead of USD
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154 2013-05-19 00:43:59 <goodbtc> this is insane, btc is not part of their banking mumbojumboprintingmoneyatwill scheme
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161 2013-05-19 00:47:59 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/41e1a0d7663d479f437c779df90775fc2bbc4087 "Make transactions larger than 100K non-standard" from February 4th. 100KB tx size limit is surprisingly recent.
162 2013-05-19 00:48:09 <warren> I wonder how 100KB was chosen.
163 2013-05-19 00:48:31 <warren> or why
164 2013-05-19 00:48:49 <goodbtc> next, the department of homoland insecurity will seize the accounts of linden and wow for being money transmitters
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275 2013-05-19 02:51:24 <super3> can someone point me to some good documentation for working with jsonrpc and bitcoin?
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277 2013-05-19 02:58:15 <nimdAHK> good luck
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281 2013-05-19 03:03:09 <gfawkes> its easy
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284 2013-05-19 03:05:46 <gfawkes> if only there was source code released that showed using the jsonrpc interface from a remote client..... oh wait..
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288 2013-05-19 03:20:22 <super3> gfawkes, with python things?
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303 2013-05-19 03:48:37 <gfawkes> language shouldnt matter, but no, it is in c#
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305 2013-05-19 03:49:15 <gfawkes> it would actually be a little bit cleaner in python most likely since more of the plumbing is wrapped up
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307 2013-05-19 03:49:37 <gfawkes> but, the cost of that is that you are writing in python
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316 2013-05-19 04:05:40 <super3> gfawkes, ah i see what i did wrong
317 2013-05-19 04:05:47 <super3> got to allow that stuff in the config
318 2013-05-19 04:06:08 <super3> how im trying to figure out how you actually send a command using this jsonrpc module
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332 2013-05-19 04:20:02 <super3> whats the json rpc for getbalance, i am jusy trying to find a decent example
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335 2013-05-19 04:25:10 <HaltingState> phantomcircuit, conde nast owns reddit; not wired
336 2013-05-19 04:26:48 <gfawkes> super3 - it would be a get request to /getbalance
337 2013-05-19 04:27:29 <phantomcircuit> hmm you're right
338 2013-05-19 04:27:34 <phantomcircuit> not sure why i thought it was wired
339 2013-05-19 04:27:35 <phantomcircuit> oh well
340 2013-05-19 04:28:13 <gfawkes> public void GetBalance(BTCClosure b_callback, string a_account = null, int a_minconf = 1)
341 2013-05-19 04:28:29 <gfawkes> looks like it takes an account and minimum number of confirmations
342 2013-05-19 04:29:20 <gfawkes> oh and they are POSTs not GETs my bad memory
343 2013-05-19 04:33:25 <Cory> They used to share an office with Wired.
344 2013-05-19 04:34:06 wallet431 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
345 2013-05-19 04:37:06 <phantomcircuit> Cory, ah that explains it
346 2013-05-19 04:37:17 Bohren has joined
347 2013-05-19 04:37:40 <phantomcircuit> oh
348 2013-05-19 04:37:41 <phantomcircuit> no
349 2013-05-19 04:37:48 <phantomcircuit> HaltingState, conde nast owns wired also
350 2013-05-19 04:37:56 <HaltingState> ya
351 2013-05-19 04:37:57 <phantomcircuit> i knew i wasn't crazy
352 2013-05-19 04:38:20 <phantomcircuit> there was probably a story that they were bought by wired
353 2013-05-19 04:38:27 <phantomcircuit> journalists are lazy like that
354 2013-05-19 04:38:51 <phantomcircuit> a bunch of incompetent english majors control the worlds opinion of things
355 2013-05-19 04:38:56 <phantomcircuit> no wonder society is so broken
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386 2013-05-19 05:22:21 <Guest22316> hola
387 2013-05-19 05:22:23 Bohren has joined
388 2013-05-19 05:23:09 <Guest22316> como se aumenta el bitcoin?????
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424 2013-05-19 06:39:33 <throughnothing> I'm curious if anyone knows if SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY is currently used in certain use cases
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450 2013-05-19 07:06:38 <beethoven8201> question. I need to override a previous transaction made from a paper wallet (too small a fee). how would I resubmit a new rawtrasnaction?
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491 2013-05-19 08:25:00 goodbtc has joined
492 2013-05-19 08:25:12 diki has joined
493 2013-05-19 08:25:21 <diki> Darn, why is this guy saying "A share has nothing to do with the block. It is just some useless value sent to you, to see "how fast you work"."
494 2013-05-19 08:25:59 <goodbtc> it has to do, with the previous block
495 2013-05-19 08:26:04 IceLookLo has joined
496 2013-05-19 08:26:19 <goodbtc> and, if you solve the damn hash, it has to do with the next block
497 2013-05-19 08:26:20 <diki> Do try to tell him then https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=209060 he is refusing to accept
498 2013-05-19 08:26:21 coolfengyu has joined
499 2013-05-19 08:28:06 <goodbtc> math never lie (except in selected theaters)
500 2013-05-19 08:28:48 <diki> the guy is basically not understanding how mining works
501 2013-05-19 08:28:56 <goodbtc> I have a different question: is possible to ask major pool operators to ignore a specific address, for example: https://blockchain.info/address/1JwSSubhmg6iPtRjtyqhUYYH7bZg3Lfy1T
502 2013-05-19 08:29:06 <diki> in his view, a share is useless value sent to the pool for speed calculation
503 2013-05-19 08:29:26 <goodbtc> and then, to create black lists of addresses similar to adblock ones
504 2013-05-19 08:29:26 <phantomcircuit> goodbtc, you can ask, i doubt anybody will listen to you
505 2013-05-19 08:29:36 <phantomcircuit> especially since it would be pretty annoying to actually implement
506 2013-05-19 08:29:43 <goodbtc> the damn address is clearly compromised
507 2013-05-19 08:29:45 andyh2 has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
508 2013-05-19 08:30:22 <goodbtc> I doubt is any good for the system in the future, or for any particular person
509 2013-05-19 08:31:00 Sealy has quit (Quit: Sealy)
510 2013-05-19 08:31:08 <phantomcircuit> goodbtc, compromised?
511 2013-05-19 08:31:15 coolfengyu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
512 2013-05-19 08:31:23 <phantomcircuit> you mean
513 2013-05-19 08:31:25 <phantomcircuit> spammmy
514 2013-05-19 08:31:26 <goodbtc> is the correct horse battery staple brainwallet.org one
515 2013-05-19 08:31:43 coolfengyu has joined
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517 2013-05-19 08:32:01 <goodbtc> 'everyone' knows it's private address
518 2013-05-19 08:32:48 <goodbtc> http://brainwallet.org/
519 2013-05-19 08:33:37 <goodbtc> do I make any sense?
520 2013-05-19 08:33:41 <MC1984_> http://bitnodes.io/ anyone seen this?
521 2013-05-19 08:34:00 <MC1984_> is thier methodology correct, it says there are almost half a million actual nodes out there
522 2013-05-19 08:34:20 <MC1984_> i thought it was closer to 15,000 and falling :/
523 2013-05-19 08:34:47 Bjander has joined
524 2013-05-19 08:35:07 <goodbtc> i run 3 full nodes myself, and adding (in my limited possibilites)
525 2013-05-19 08:35:24 <phantomcircuit> MC1984_, there's ~500k addresses being broadcast around the network
526 2013-05-19 08:35:34 <phantomcircuit> last i checked ~4k had listening nodes
527 2013-05-19 08:35:48 <phantomcircuit> my listening node gets ~50 connections
528 2013-05-19 08:36:03 <phantomcircuit> so im assuming ~100k actual nodes
529 2013-05-19 08:36:20 <phantomcircuit> since my node is very very long lived and on a stable high bandwidth connection
530 2013-05-19 08:36:26 <goodbtc> I have 37 atm
531 2013-05-19 08:36:36 <diki> I have 8 connections
532 2013-05-19 08:36:50 <MC1984_> they claim to have connected to thos 500,000 over the course of a few days from what i can see
533 2013-05-19 08:36:50 <phantomcircuit> diki, i only care about nodes which can receiving incoming connections
534 2013-05-19 08:37:00 <phantomcircuit> MC1984_, that is total nonsense
535 2013-05-19 08:37:10 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
536 2013-05-19 08:37:18 <phantomcircuit> there are most definitely not 500k connectable nodes
537 2013-05-19 08:37:27 BTCOxygen has joined
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539 2013-05-19 08:37:52 <MC1984_> hmm what is that site measuring then
540 2013-05-19 08:39:03 <phantomcircuit> MC1984_, im pretty sure they're just measuring the unique addresses broadcast in the 'addr' message from nodes
541 2013-05-19 08:39:09 <phantomcircuit> but those are full of abject nonsense
542 2013-05-19 08:39:22 <MC1984_> but that would be a dumb way to measure the netowrk
543 2013-05-19 08:39:25 <phantomcircuit> there's a few nodes that spam people with fake 'addr' messages
544 2013-05-19 08:39:29 <phantomcircuit> so the network is full of them
545 2013-05-19 08:39:36 <phantomcircuit> it doesn't much effect things
546 2013-05-19 08:39:43 <phantomcircuit> but it massively inflates that number
547 2013-05-19 08:39:59 <phantomcircuit> which is potentially the purpose of the fake addr messages actually that i think about it
548 2013-05-19 08:40:12 Thepok has joined
549 2013-05-19 08:40:14 <phantomcircuit> that would be a pretty useful way to disguise who was actually in the network but not connectible
550 2013-05-19 08:40:33 <MC1984_> hm
551 2013-05-19 08:40:37 <warren> fake addr also forces client to randomly reach out to addresses and be logged in their attempts
552 2013-05-19 08:40:40 <MC1984_> my nodes gets 85 btw
553 2013-05-19 08:41:08 <diki> "You do not process shares when solo-mining, because you do not have to submit proof of your processing power" <- lol?
554 2013-05-19 08:41:22 <warren> who is saying this?
555 2013-05-19 08:41:35 <diki> and
556 2013-05-19 08:41:37 <diki> "Shares are irrelevant blocks of data, distributed by the pool, to test your speed to give you credit for your power in a round, and have little impact on the processing power of hashing the actual block"
557 2013-05-19 08:41:39 <phantomcircuit> diki, that's a bizarre statement
558 2013-05-19 08:42:28 <diki> and finally "Finding difficulty 1-64 requires a micro-second or two. Finding difficulty 11,121,323 takes about 30 min. If you STOP processing after finding that share, and now process the next-servers share"
559 2013-05-19 08:42:46 <phantomcircuit> lol usec for 1
560 2013-05-19 08:42:47 <phantomcircuit> no
561 2013-05-19 08:43:28 viperhr has joined
562 2013-05-19 08:43:52 <diki> I would hope someone educates this person once and for all eternity https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=209060.0
563 2013-05-19 08:44:13 <goodbtc> my question above is still: if I solomine, can I add a blacklist of addresses I do not want to process data for?
564 2013-05-19 08:44:26 <goodbtc> regardless of fee
565 2013-05-19 08:45:34 coolfengyu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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567 2013-05-19 08:48:29 <wumpus> goodbtc: you can, though you have to patch your client
568 2013-05-19 08:48:54 <wumpus> miners have full control over whose transactions to include
569 2013-05-19 08:49:15 <warren> Imagine who would be left to maintain the client if San Jose is hit by a meteor now. I'm afraid.
570 2013-05-19 08:49:36 <goodbtc> I will be really interested about this after (hopefully) I receive my bfl unit
571 2013-05-19 08:49:37 <wumpus> though ofcourse, filtering by address is pointless in a system in which creating new addresses is free
572 2013-05-19 08:49:52 <wumpus> warren: I would be!
573 2013-05-19 08:49:55 <goodbtc> that address above in particular
574 2013-05-19 08:50:10 <goodbtc> https://blockchain.info/address/1JwSSubhmg6iPtRjtyqhUYYH7bZg3Lfy1T
575 2013-05-19 08:50:37 azm has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
576 2013-05-19 08:50:52 <goodbtc> and I am really considering an easy to add/update lblacklist similar to adblockplus
577 2013-05-19 08:51:23 Neozonz has joined
578 2013-05-19 08:51:32 <goodbtc> where the bitcoin police can add addresses involved in stolen btc
579 2013-05-19 08:51:46 <goodbtc> or kidnapping ransoms?
580 2013-05-19 08:51:54 coolfengyu has joined
581 2013-05-19 08:52:11 <goodbtc> and we elect gmaxwell chief of police
582 2013-05-19 08:52:32 <goodbtc> and we put nakamoto sign in the sky and call for Bitman
583 2013-05-19 08:53:08 <goodbtc> (jokes aside, I do hope I am not the first who thought about this)
584 2013-05-19 08:54:49 <wumpus> no you're not exactly the first to think of that, search for threads about "tainted" coins on the forums...
585 2013-05-19 08:56:04 <goodbtc> ty, i have to see if there are instructions about how to patch a client
586 2013-05-19 08:57:07 <wumpus> changes related to censorship (such as address blacklists) will never be accepted upstream
587 2013-05-19 08:57:41 <goodbtc> is an opensource blacklist, optin :)
588 2013-05-19 08:57:54 <wumpus> but of course you're free to mutilate your own client in any way you want
589 2013-05-19 08:58:00 <goodbtc> you don;t like adblockplus list at all?
590 2013-05-19 08:59:40 <wumpus> the biggest concern for such mechanisms is about fungibility of btc, if people start black, greylisting coins then they will be worth less than other coins
591 2013-05-19 08:59:57 <wumpus> this will make pricing very complex
592 2013-05-19 09:00:10 aadce520e20c2899 has joined
593 2013-05-19 09:01:18 <MC1984_> coin tainting keeps coming back as an idea doesnt it
594 2013-05-19 09:01:19 <MC1984_> why
595 2013-05-19 09:01:26 <aadce520e20c2899> hello #bitcoin-dev! #sup
596 2013-05-19 09:01:38 <goodbtc> MC1984_, because https://blockchain.info/address/1JwSSubhmg6iPtRjtyqhUYYH7bZg3Lfy1T
597 2013-05-19 09:01:39 <MC1984_> coin tainting is probably hte road to bitcoin hell
598 2013-05-19 09:01:54 <wumpus> MC1984_: because people love the bank's ability to freeze balances, and want it in btc too
599 2013-05-19 09:02:14 <goodbtc> if a private address is public, that public address is useless
600 2013-05-19 09:02:18 <MC1984_> who are all these people coming to bitcoin, that want to to operate exactly like the banks
601 2013-05-19 09:02:31 <MC1984_> why are they here? what value do they find in bitcoin?
602 2013-05-19 09:02:43 <MC1984_> they would be happier with the old system
603 2013-05-19 09:02:43 <goodbtc> explian like I am 5: what is the future use of that address for bitcoin
604 2013-05-19 09:04:04 <MC1984_> just silly bugger bitcoin trolling
605 2013-05-19 09:04:58 <goodbtc> you don't agree that is best for everyone to ignore that address from further processing?
606 2013-05-19 09:05:00 <wumpus> even if it makes no sense to you, people should still be free to use it, the payment system shouldn't make such decisions
607 2013-05-19 09:05:56 <goodbtc> even if it doesnt makes sense to me, it must make sense for somebody: explain it to me, please
608 2013-05-19 09:05:59 <aadce520e20c2899> is the dust actually impossible to spend, or is it just the sheer amount of unconfirmedness that prevents any more of the tx from confirming?
609 2013-05-19 09:06:11 <wumpus> you as a miner can make the decision, of course, if your religion doesn't allow sending transfers to porn sites (and you could somehow find out their addresses) you can block them... but other miners will pick up the transaction anyway
610 2013-05-19 09:06:38 nizeguy has joined
611 2013-05-19 09:06:45 <goodbtc> true
612 2013-05-19 09:07:53 <goodbtc> however, in time may miners can see that a particular address is ... bad for the system
613 2013-05-19 09:08:21 <MC1984_> someone would just make a new notorious address
614 2013-05-19 09:08:21 <goodbtc> i can start a dustfree mining pool :P
615 2013-05-19 09:08:27 <MC1984_> whats the point
616 2013-05-19 09:08:39 <wumpus> aadce520e20c2899: it may be possible to spend by adding a huge fee, if you can find a miner to include it for you, but what's the point? it will cost more in fees to spend than the amount
617 2013-05-19 09:08:50 <MC1984_> that shit still hasnt confirmed, once fees matter it wrobably never would
618 2013-05-19 09:09:56 <aadce520e20c2899> I've read a suggestion of 0.05 fee per Kb, which is impossible with that address :P
619 2013-05-19 09:11:34 <aadce520e20c2899> sorry 0.0005/Kb, also impossible
620 2013-05-19 09:12:16 <goodbtc> 0.000005 in 0.8.2
621 2013-05-19 09:14:07 <goodbtc> want to make fun of someone? instruct him to import the private key of correct horse battery staple to his wallet : 5KJvsngHeMpm884wtkJNzQGaCErckhHJBGFsvd3VyK5qMZXj3hS
622 2013-05-19 09:14:32 <MC1984_> lol
623 2013-05-19 09:15:02 <wumpus> you have a strange definition of fun :p
624 2013-05-19 09:15:06 <goodbtc> you can charge him later for removing it ... :D
625 2013-05-19 09:16:27 <aadce520e20c2899> can't you also attack someone by similarly dumping dust into their address? tons of tiny outputs that eat up too much Kb to be spendable?
626 2013-05-19 09:16:51 <goodbtc> actually, yes - it will cost you some
627 2013-05-19 09:17:07 <chax> is anyone running an app strictly using the blockchain.info api to interact with the bc?
628 2013-05-19 09:17:08 <wumpus> but such issues are the reason importprivatekey is a hidden feature, too easy to shoot yourself in the foot if you don't know what you're doing (such as importing other people's private keys)
629 2013-05-19 09:17:38 <wumpus> aadce520e20c2899: no, the client will simply never spend them, so it's like sending nothing at all
630 2013-05-19 09:18:25 <aadce520e20c2899> Well, after importing that privkey, bitcoin-qt constantly freezes, I think it's because listunspent takes like 30 seconds
631 2013-05-19 09:19:57 diki has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
632 2013-05-19 09:20:09 <wumpus> in general you should never import private keys that exist in some other wallet, or that other people know of, so if someone else tells you to import a private key: DON'T
633 2013-05-19 09:20:45 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
634 2013-05-19 09:21:59 <MC1984_> im pretty sure some people on the forums have been dusted
635 2013-05-19 09:22:08 <MC1984_> when they have an address in the sig etc
636 2013-05-19 09:22:30 <aadce520e20c2899> I made the mistake of importing it /while/ the spamming was happening. While being flooded with notifications, I wondered why the transactions were even being relayed to me
637 2013-05-19 09:22:49 <MC1984_> derp
638 2013-05-19 09:22:53 <aadce520e20c2899> I thought the criteria for relaying/mining would be the same
639 2013-05-19 09:23:38 <goodbtc> I was wise enough to test it on a different computer - easy fix was to delete the wallet.dat :))
640 2013-05-19 09:23:38 <dugo> goodbtc .. someone did that to gox, made them sweep it
641 2013-05-19 09:23:52 Mandarine_ has joined
642 2013-05-19 09:25:04 <goodbtc> well, sending dust should cost more?
643 2013-05-19 09:25:04 <wumpus> yes, if we add a sweep command we should add logic to detect dust and prevent sweeping that
644 2013-05-19 09:25:43 <wumpus> isn't that the point of the 0.8.2 change? to make sending dust virtually impossible
645 2013-05-19 09:26:03 Mandarine_ has left ()
646 2013-05-19 09:26:59 abrkn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
647 2013-05-19 09:27:10 sydna has joined
648 2013-05-19 09:27:34 <MC1984_> you have to distinguish between relaying and confirms
649 2013-05-19 09:28:45 ralphtheninja has joined
650 2013-05-19 09:28:52 ralphtheninja has quit (Client Quit)
651 2013-05-19 09:28:59 ralphtheninja has joined
652 2013-05-19 09:35:23 RazielXYZ has joined
653 2013-05-19 09:35:26 RazielZ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
654 2013-05-19 09:36:06 shesek has joined
655 2013-05-19 09:36:15 <wumpus> 0.8.2 will, by default, neither include dust in blocks or relay it
656 2013-05-19 09:37:06 Cryo has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
657 2013-05-19 09:38:32 gjj has joined
658 2013-05-19 09:39:01 <dugo> not even spend dust back
659 2013-05-19 09:39:12 <aadce520e20c2899> is it possible to automatically combine outputs to the same address
660 2013-05-19 09:39:25 <aadce520e20c2899> or, is it impossible to have more than 1 output to the same address
661 2013-05-19 09:39:49 <MC1984_> eh
662 2013-05-19 09:39:53 <goodbtc> https://blockchain.info/double-spends :)
663 2013-05-19 09:40:45 <sydna> man, that address is annoying
664 2013-05-19 09:40:59 <goodbtc> that's what she said
665 2013-05-19 09:41:13 <wumpus> it is impossible to have multiple outputs to the same address in the same transaction, it makes the transaction invalid
666 2013-05-19 09:41:22 shesek has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
667 2013-05-19 09:42:01 <sydna> are you sure?
668 2013-05-19 09:42:13 <sydna> the incoming ones to "correct battery horse staple" did, and they confirmed
669 2013-05-19 09:43:03 <sydna> here, this TX â https://blockchain.info/tx/cee8906a03777b24117d0898423bb8ef61823d55f5eb64a8e47a2127c9ea37f2
670 2013-05-19 09:43:15 <sydna> one input, thousands of outputs to the same address, and it confirmed
671 2013-05-19 09:43:21 <sturles> wumpus: What rule makes that invalid?
672 2013-05-19 09:43:40 <sydna> wumpus: wait, no, it never confirmed.
673 2013-05-19 09:44:04 <wumpus> hm I thought so, but if you have evidence to the contrary it seems that I was wrong...
674 2013-05-19 09:44:20 qwertyoruiop has joined
675 2013-05-19 09:44:57 <sydna> I'd find more information on it, but blockchain.info makes my browser hang, and that TXID makes block explorer time out.
676 2013-05-19 09:45:12 <MC1984_> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1elxpb/concentration_of_active_bitcoin_nodes_found_in/
677 2013-05-19 09:45:52 <MC1984_> at the bottom the guy claims that his numbers are for connectable nodes with protocol >70001
678 2013-05-19 09:45:56 <MC1984_> wtf
679 2013-05-19 09:45:59 <wumpus> oh it checks for duplicate *input* not duplicate *outputs*
680 2013-05-19 09:46:25 <sydna> wumpus: I swear I've seen multiple inputs as well
681 2013-05-19 09:46:29 <wumpus> the standard client doesn't allow duplicate outputs when sending a transaction, but I cannot find a rule prohibiting it in the protocol
682 2013-05-19 09:46:32 <aadce520e20c2899> @wumpus So you explicitly can spam people with dust, but they can't spend it? :P
683 2013-05-19 09:46:47 <wumpus> then again, I don't know those by heart
684 2013-05-19 09:46:57 <sydna> MC1984_: the number of clients doesn't seem right to me. I've only ever seen 14k in my peers.dat
685 2013-05-19 09:47:16 <MC1984_> same
686 2013-05-19 09:47:24 <sturles> sydna: An input is a tuple. txid and vout. If you can use two identical inputs in one tx, you are doubling your money.
687 2013-05-19 09:47:35 <sydna> MC1984_: if there really was 350,000 nodes, surely I'd be able to see that
688 2013-05-19 09:47:46 <MC1984_> i have no idea what methodology hes using, someone would have to look at the repo i suppose
689 2013-05-19 09:48:18 <sydna> sturles: ah. I think I messed up my mental map of how TX work.
690 2013-05-19 09:48:19 <MC1984_> if anything the foundatoin should be running some sort of bitcoin observatory
691 2013-05-19 09:48:36 <sydna> gmaxwell mentioned it to me a while back
692 2013-05-19 09:48:55 <sydna> he said that ideally the foundation should be running a node of every version, and comparing them
693 2013-05-19 09:49:17 <wumpus> aadce520e20c2899: not really, but accepting duplicate inputs would effectively allow double spending, so there's a much better reason not to accept those :)
694 2013-05-19 09:49:23 <sydna> mildly pointless once the <=0.7 clients get left behind, but it's a good idea.
695 2013-05-19 09:50:23 <aadce520e20c2899> oh, I mean just the same address. Assumably the way this guy created all the dust
696 2013-05-19 09:50:24 bitit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
697 2013-05-19 09:50:25 <jouke> 11:27 < Arbitron> Height -> 6.3 - 236897 | 7.2 - 236897 | 8.1 - 236897 | 8.2rc1 - 236897 | bexplr - 236897 | bcinfo - 236897
698 2013-05-19 09:50:28 <jouke> 11:27 < Arbitron> 236897 -> 6.3 - 6dee71 | 7.2 - 6dee71 | 8.1 - ecc0d4 | 8.2rc1 - ecc0d4 | bexplr - 6dee71 | bcinfo - 6dee71
699 2013-05-19 09:50:34 <jouke> maybe too soon to tell
700 2013-05-19 09:50:53 <sydna> jouke: oh that's pleasant, where did that information come from?
701 2013-05-19 09:51:06 <jouke> from our bot @ #bitcoin-nl
702 2013-05-19 09:51:45 <sydna> MC1984_: grabbed a copy of their data, going to have a play with it
703 2013-05-19 09:51:51 <sydna> jouke: I like that.
704 2013-05-19 09:51:59 <wumpus> spending multiple inputs from the same address in one transaction is fine, of course
705 2013-05-19 09:52:00 <MC1984_> cool
706 2013-05-19 09:52:18 <MC1984_> it seem slike theyre trying to recurse very node int he network or something
707 2013-05-19 09:53:21 <sydna> the number just seems stupid high. even the 2012 network census botnet didn't see more than a couple of hundred listening bitcoin nodes
708 2013-05-19 09:58:11 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
709 2013-05-19 09:58:14 <sydna> actually, that was incorrect
710 2013-05-19 09:58:34 <sydna> in late 2012 the census botnet saw 32,844 hosts listening on port 8333
711 2013-05-19 09:58:43 shesek has joined
712 2013-05-19 09:59:19 fanquake has joined
713 2013-05-19 10:00:29 <sytse> jouke: seems unlikely that it's not a fork; blockchain.info and blockexplorer still show the 6dee71 block 10 minutes after the ecc0d4 block apparently has been mined (according to Arbitron at least, don't have a bitcoind running to confirm)
714 2013-05-19 10:01:33 <jouke> That is because they are at the same heighth
715 2013-05-19 10:01:40 <sytse> hmmm, ah
716 2013-05-19 10:01:54 <dugo> hmm .. a vps box w/ a boatload of ipv6 numbers not using -bind might bloat things quickly, no!?
717 2013-05-19 10:02:12 <sytse> hmm, makes me think
718 2013-05-19 10:02:12 <sydna> MC1984_: that's pretty much it. they're connecting to each, and recursively connecting to every peer
719 2013-05-19 10:02:28 <sytse> I should order a boatload of ipv4 numbers for my vps box now that I can \o/
720 2013-05-19 10:02:42 <sydna> dugo: the number in both the census, and the bitnodes.io scan are ipv4 only
721 2013-05-19 10:02:50 <MC1984_> so how have they come up with 400000 nodes then thats insane
722 2013-05-19 10:03:18 <sydna> I think it includes all of the "stale" nodes as well. think people on dynamic ip addresses
723 2013-05-19 10:03:39 hnz has joined
724 2013-05-19 10:03:58 <MC1984_> how much churn is there
725 2013-05-19 10:04:12 <MC1984_> probably quite a lot
726 2013-05-19 10:04:53 <sydna> I would imagine so
727 2013-05-19 10:05:09 <sydna> that's the only explanation I can come up with, there's no way that there's actually 400k nodes
728 2013-05-19 10:05:15 <MC1984_> you know, if satoshi popped up an option saying "run service in the background for faster startup next time?"
729 2013-05-19 10:05:28 <MC1984_> i bet that would add a fuck ton of stable nodes
730 2013-05-19 10:05:30 paracyst has quit ()
731 2013-05-19 10:05:51 <sydna> do we actually need more nodes though?
732 2013-05-19 10:05:54 <Luke-Jr> my 0.7 and 0.8 match FWIW
733 2013-05-19 10:05:56 <Luke-Jr> nght
734 2013-05-19 10:05:57 <MC1984_> its the small psychological things that make or break a p2p netowrk
735 2013-05-19 10:06:12 <sydna> I have absolutely no idea how "healthy" the bitcoin network is
736 2013-05-19 10:06:20 <MC1984_> sydna during the 2011 boom, the netowrk did actually start running out of sockets
737 2013-05-19 10:06:59 <sydna> crazy.
738 2013-05-19 10:07:04 <MC1984_> every lite client needs a socket in the network, not counting electrum and web wallets and shit
739 2013-05-19 10:07:26 greenstar_ has joined
740 2013-05-19 10:07:31 <sydna> how greedy is blockchain.info? they must be using a very large number of the listening nodes
741 2013-05-19 10:07:49 <aadce520e20c2899> >1107 Nodes Connected
742 2013-05-19 10:07:59 <sydna> within a few minutes of opening an outgoing connection, I'm usually in their connected list
743 2013-05-19 10:08:07 <MC1984_> ive got 80 ish and quite a few of those are bitcoinj
744 2013-05-19 10:08:30 dvide has joined
745 2013-05-19 10:09:29 <jouke> Luke-Jr: seems like just a normal fork that just accidentaly hit both my .8 clients :)
746 2013-05-19 10:09:56 MC1984_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
747 2013-05-19 10:10:07 <sydna> if there was a bitcoin observatory, what other information could you gather by having multiple but connected nodes?
748 2013-05-19 10:10:51 MC1984 has joined
749 2013-05-19 10:10:53 <aadce520e20c2899> dan kaminsky pointed out how you'd use it to attack anonymity
750 2013-05-19 10:11:08 <MC1984> fuck does anyone use xchat?
751 2013-05-19 10:11:23 <aadce520e20c2899> I'm using xchat
752 2013-05-19 10:11:23 <sydna> I was thinking more statistical than malicious
753 2013-05-19 10:11:26 <MC1984> ive hit loads of accidental hotkeys while trying to type and now my interface is fucked up
754 2013-05-19 10:11:44 <warren> MC1984: CTRL-I
755 2013-05-19 10:11:46 <MC1984> my menu bar is gone
756 2013-05-19 10:11:49 Neozonz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
757 2013-05-19 10:12:00 MC1984 has left ()
758 2013-05-19 10:12:13 <aadce520e20c2899> F9 menu bar here
759 2013-05-19 10:12:36 MC1984 has joined
760 2013-05-19 10:12:50 <MC1984> that didnt help
761 2013-05-19 10:12:52 <aadce520e20c2899> F9 menu bar
762 2013-05-19 10:13:03 <MC1984> ok that helped
763 2013-05-19 10:13:22 <MC1984> ok thanks aadce520e20c2899
764 2013-05-19 10:14:15 <sydna> aadce520e20c2899: blockchain.info already does attack anonymity really
765 2013-05-19 10:14:42 <sydna> more evil than love in that website
766 2013-05-19 10:16:46 forsetifox has quit (Quit: Page closed)
767 2013-05-19 10:19:59 Bjander has quit (Quit: Cellphone IRC... the worst kind...)
768 2013-05-19 10:20:46 IceLookLo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
769 2013-05-19 10:22:15 Sealy has joined
770 2013-05-19 10:22:45 <MC1984> how do they attack
771 2013-05-19 10:23:27 <MC1984> thy have the crappy relayed by thing? Theyre not even really trying to get tx source ips. Someone else could easily REALLY try
772 2013-05-19 10:24:19 <aadce520e20c2899> if you were the law you would probably keep the records
773 2013-05-19 10:24:21 <MC1984> could be doing so right now and no one would ever know
774 2013-05-19 10:24:53 <MC1984> i expect the law to have all sorts of probes and statistical graphing going on in the blockchain aventaully
775 2013-05-19 10:25:24 <jouke> I think it is safe to expect that yes :)
776 2013-05-19 10:26:02 <sydna> MC1984: I'd like that. I like lots of numbers and graphs
777 2013-05-19 10:26:10 <MC1984> and i dont bought that if it comes down to getting a standard of evidence re: addresses and coin paths that passes the reasonable doubt test, or lowering evidential standards
778 2013-05-19 10:26:14 <sydna> MC1984: sometimes I graph things just for pleasure
779 2013-05-19 10:26:15 <MC1984> theyd lower standards first
780 2013-05-19 10:26:58 <MC1984> in fact, evidential standards on the internet were already lowered to a simple accusation when it comes to copyright infringement
781 2013-05-19 10:27:14 <MC1984> and courts cut out entirely in some cases
782 2013-05-19 10:27:18 Icoin has joined
783 2013-05-19 10:27:21 <MC1984> so no i dont dought it at all
784 2013-05-19 10:27:31 <sydna> yeah, the DMCA fucks everyone over.
785 2013-05-19 10:27:32 <MC1984> doubt
786 2013-05-19 10:27:45 <MC1984> fuck my brain cant spell shit any more
787 2013-05-19 10:31:00 <MC1984> it just proves that when you put the Man in a position where he cant get his way without sacrificing his apparent beliefs and principles, it wont be long before he goes ahead and does so without giving a fuck
788 2013-05-19 10:31:22 <MC1984> but then i suppose the war on terror tought us that better than any thing else
789 2013-05-19 10:32:08 <sydna> the issue for me is that I'm not even american, and I still have to deal with that crap
790 2013-05-19 10:32:24 <aadce520e20c2899> I would much rather stick with DMCA and fix it up, than other proposals we keep fighting
791 2013-05-19 10:32:33 <sydna> someone files a fake DMCA against me, and I have to run around filing a counter notice
792 2013-05-19 10:32:37 <sydna> what do they get? nothing.
793 2013-05-19 10:32:50 <sydna> lost my server last time that happened.
794 2013-05-19 10:33:00 <aadce520e20c2899> hmph :[
795 2013-05-19 10:33:42 whiterabbit has joined
796 2013-05-19 10:34:16 <aadce520e20c2899> it seems like I only read complaints about the DMCA when someone /abuses/ it so I feel like it could be fixed up
797 2013-05-19 10:34:33 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
798 2013-05-19 10:34:38 whiterabbit is now known as wrabbit
799 2013-05-19 10:35:12 Corndawg has joined
800 2013-05-19 10:35:34 <aadce520e20c2899> I'm glad they didn't call it the Cyber Millennium Copyright Act
801 2013-05-19 10:35:45 <sydna> yeah, you're lucky
802 2013-05-19 10:35:58 <sydna> we got a kiddie porn filter that is now being used for anything objectionable
803 2013-05-19 10:36:20 <sydna> absolutely no process, just a hidden government department that tells the ISPs what to block
804 2013-05-19 10:37:40 <aadce520e20c2899> is it illegal to circumvent it?
805 2013-05-19 10:38:04 <sydna> I've no idea, I've not come into contact with anything blocked
806 2013-05-19 10:38:18 <sydna> I imagine that it will be extended to other websites too, like the pirate bay
807 2013-05-19 10:38:26 <MC1984> i dont know why the entire interner complies with dmca
808 2013-05-19 10:38:37 <sydna> nobody does man.
809 2013-05-19 10:38:40 <MC1984> well i do, and it smacks of impiricism
810 2013-05-19 10:38:50 greenstar_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
811 2013-05-19 10:40:07 <MC1984> i would say just dont host and do business in the US
812 2013-05-19 10:40:17 <MC1984> but its the economic centre of the universe so
813 2013-05-19 10:40:17 <sydna> I don't.
814 2013-05-19 10:40:35 <sydna> I don't use services hosted in the US, I don't own servers in the US, I don't intend to visit
815 2013-05-19 10:40:54 <aadce520e20c2899> we need Protect Social Content Consumption Act
816 2013-05-19 10:41:13 <sydna> don't american acts have to be pronounceable?
817 2013-05-19 10:41:24 <MC1984> more like marketable
818 2013-05-19 10:41:24 <goodbtc> i foresee that soon many sites will display such message: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1efmzy/satoshidice_announcement/
819 2013-05-19 10:41:24 <sydna> like CISPA, SOPA, whatever
820 2013-05-19 10:41:24 <aadce520e20c2899> :s
821 2013-05-19 10:41:29 <goodbtc> just becasue
822 2013-05-19 10:42:12 <sydna> satoshidice is just scared of how big they become
823 2013-05-19 10:42:24 <sydna> I doubt it was ever meant to be anything but a weekend project
824 2013-05-19 10:42:57 <MC1984> dice knows exactly what they have wrought
825 2013-05-19 10:43:36 <sydna> if it was intended, the dude wouldn't have made it in association with his real name
826 2013-05-19 10:44:07 <goodbtc> it wasn't my intention to discuss dice per se, but the leagl system in us: the rest of the world can simply block it :)
827 2013-05-19 10:44:19 GordonGekko has joined
828 2013-05-19 10:44:30 <sydna> goodbtc: pologies.
829 2013-05-19 10:45:32 coolfengyu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
830 2013-05-19 10:51:37 <goodbtc> BFL order numbers:
831 2013-05-19 10:51:40 <goodbtc> 17*** 2/23/13
832 2013-05-19 10:51:40 <goodbtc> 19*** 3/5/13
833 2013-05-19 10:51:40 <goodbtc> 58*** 5/19/13
834 2013-05-19 10:52:06 <goodbtc> estimate difficulty in 6-12 months?
835 2013-05-19 10:52:14 coolfengyu has joined
836 2013-05-19 10:52:15 <sydna> 100M+
837 2013-05-19 10:52:32 <goodbtc> pesimistic mode could be 200+?
838 2013-05-19 10:53:03 <sydna> optimistic - 100M
839 2013-05-19 10:53:13 <sydna> pessimistic - 250M
840 2013-05-19 10:53:20 <MC1984> asicminer will be running the show by then
841 2013-05-19 10:53:39 <goodbtc> so, 300? :)
842 2013-05-19 10:53:50 <sydna> hopefully they'll be solo mining by then, not riding on btcguild
843 2013-05-19 10:54:14 <MC1984> thats even wrose
844 2013-05-19 10:54:29 <sydna> why?
845 2013-05-19 10:54:40 <MC1984> why is btcguild still mining such small blocks
846 2013-05-19 10:54:51 <MC1984> why is everyone
847 2013-05-19 10:55:03 <goodbtc> is faster
848 2013-05-19 10:55:09 <sydna> I expected #236898 to be absolutely massive
849 2013-05-19 10:55:11 Chuky has joined
850 2013-05-19 10:55:17 <sydna> goodbtc: not faster to mine, no
851 2013-05-19 10:55:30 <MC1984> theyre all on 100mbit at the very least
852 2013-05-19 10:55:39 <MC1984> what difference does it make
853 2013-05-19 10:55:51 <sydna> even my server is on 1Gb, and it's costing me nothing
854 2013-05-19 10:56:11 <MC1984> weird fucking incentives to mine microblocks while everyone else argues about the cap
855 2013-05-19 10:56:16 <sydna> if you could handle 500 nodes connected, you could get a block out to the network in seconds
856 2013-05-19 10:56:47 <sydna> deepbit isn't even trying.
857 2013-05-19 10:56:47 <MC1984> eligius mined a 800kb few days ago
858 2013-05-19 10:57:06 <sydna> what's with this block?
859 2013-05-19 10:57:07 <sydna> http://blockchain.info/block-index/384248/0000000000000155024ac202393fb87c23277f73234fa730f2af5b8c3c60236d
860 2013-05-19 10:57:16 <sydna> the coinbase, and two 0fee TX
861 2013-05-19 10:58:17 Satorin has joined
862 2013-05-19 10:58:31 <sydna> eligius or p2pool are probably the least evil pools
863 2013-05-19 10:59:03 <aadce520e20c2899> I loved the story about eligius and coiledcoin
864 2013-05-19 10:59:04 <sydna> their blocks consistently contain lots of TX anyway
865 2013-05-19 10:59:09 IceLookLo has joined
866 2013-05-19 10:59:11 <sydna> aadce520e20c2899: do tell.
867 2013-05-19 10:59:48 IceLookLo is now known as lolcookie
868 2013-05-19 10:59:58 <MC1984> the btc guild guy is pretty stand up though, i thoght
869 2013-05-19 11:00:09 <lolcookie> 1
870 2013-05-19 11:00:29 <aadce520e20c2899> coiledcoin was some dude's experimental branch, LukeJr merge mined it and said "CoiledCoin is now closed. Have a nice day" freezing the coin by not including any transactiosn or something like that
871 2013-05-19 11:00:30 <MC1984> he came through in march even though it cost him thousands of btc
872 2013-05-19 11:00:44 lolcookie has quit (Client Quit)
873 2013-05-19 11:00:51 <sydna> aadce520e20c2899: ⦠ouch.
874 2013-05-19 11:01:06 IceLookLo has joined
875 2013-05-19 11:01:17 <sydna> MC1984: good point. I like their interface too.
876 2013-05-19 11:01:20 <MC1984> luke does things like that sometimes
877 2013-05-19 11:01:38 <MC1984> he has a low tolerance for scamcoins
878 2013-05-19 11:01:56 <sydna> there's an incredible number of them at the moment
879 2013-05-19 11:02:05 <MC1984> i think coiledcoin got an exchanger from day 1 though which is a dead givaway
880 2013-05-19 11:02:47 <MC1984> yeah i know know of one coin that wasnt created to make money and thats nmc
881 2013-05-19 11:02:55 <sydna> the "Alternate cryptocurrencies" is a cesspit
882 2013-05-19 11:03:03 <dugo> and we have testnet
883 2013-05-19 11:03:34 <sydna> bytecoin?
884 2013-05-19 11:03:36 <goodbtc> however, even nmc is hardly maitained, I donlt even know how to use it :)
885 2013-05-19 11:03:50 Brotox has joined
886 2013-05-19 11:03:59 <aadce520e20c2899> it's a DOS attack, but tbh I would mine with elegius now :)
887 2013-05-19 11:04:22 <sydna> not sure why p2pool doesn't get more love
888 2013-05-19 11:04:23 <goodbtc> an altcoin must come with something really revolutionary to gain traction
889 2013-05-19 11:04:24 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
890 2013-05-19 11:05:00 <sydna> goodbtc: I liked a suggestion of someone's to have a crypto currency based on CAPTCHA. they clearly didn't think that one out.
891 2013-05-19 11:05:01 <MC1984> there should be only one ational choice for mining and thats p2pool
892 2013-05-19 11:05:09 <dugo> i'm thinking about something like testnet but with release candidates (rcnet?)
893 2013-05-19 11:05:22 <Brotox> CRAPTCHA
894 2013-05-19 11:05:29 <MC1984> of course the early asics are janky enough in their design that p2pool doenst work well
895 2013-05-19 11:05:33 <MC1984> and it may never recover
896 2013-05-19 11:05:41 <sydna> oh, why?
897 2013-05-19 11:05:56 <aadce520e20c2899> mine FitCoins powered by your exercise bike
898 2013-05-19 11:05:58 <MC1984> some sort of long internal latency
899 2013-05-19 11:05:59 <sydna> do they only make difficulty 1 shares or something stupid?
900 2013-05-19 11:06:03 <sydna> ah.
901 2013-05-19 11:06:03 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
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903 2013-05-19 11:06:25 <goodbtc> captcha is slavery, there are people paid with 3 cents/hour to solve those (or smth)
904 2013-05-19 11:06:29 <MC1984> avalon batch 1 doesnt work well with it
905 2013-05-19 11:06:46 <sydna> goodbtc: of course, which is why it's stupid to base a currency on
906 2013-05-19 11:07:17 <goodbtc> sorry, for a moment I thought you took that serious :)
907 2013-05-19 11:07:21 Brotox has quit (Client Quit)
908 2013-05-19 11:07:25 <sydna> I've used captcha solving services when scraping sites. cost me $5 for 10000 solves, or something stupid like that.
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910 2013-05-19 11:07:37 <sydna> goodbtc: of course not, who would make the captcha, who would verify it!
911 2013-05-19 11:08:04 <sydna> goodbtc: almost as stupid as people asking for two factor authentication on their bitcoin wallet. it can't happen without trust in a third party.
912 2013-05-19 11:08:25 <aadce520e20c2899> you could use Provably Fair captchas
913 2013-05-19 11:08:31 Brotox has joined
914 2013-05-19 11:09:16 <sydna> can't see how it could work
915 2013-05-19 11:09:41 <dugo> would make for some giant ocr machine, maybe library of congress can provide the snippets?
916 2013-05-19 11:09:45 <goodbtc> I can't invent a mobile app as two factor auth of my laptop wallet? open source, that doesn't need 3rd party?
917 2013-05-19 11:10:10 <sydna> goodbtc: you could, but you couldn't create an encrypted block using it
918 2013-05-19 11:10:21 Bjander has joined
919 2013-05-19 11:10:36 <DonnchaC> You can but the 2factor key will be on your computer along with the wallet, it would provide no significant protection
920 2013-05-19 11:10:37 <sydna> 2fa provides authentication, but not a static output like an encryption key
921 2013-05-19 11:10:49 <sydna> as DonnchaC said.
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924 2013-05-19 11:11:50 <goodbtc> hmm, I am not expert in this: the thief should steal my laptop and my phone and should know 2 passwords in order to access wallet
925 2013-05-19 11:11:56 icellan has joined
926 2013-05-19 11:12:08 <sydna> can't be done
927 2013-05-19 11:12:23 <goodbtc> why I am not smart? :(
928 2013-05-19 11:12:28 <sydna> the laptop can prove that the phone is there, and it is who it says it is
929 2013-05-19 11:12:49 <sydna> the laptop can't make an encryption key, or decrypt an encrypted wallet based on that
930 2013-05-19 11:13:07 <sydna> so I would just steal your wallet, take out the hard drive, and loot your unencrypted wallet
931 2013-05-19 11:13:18 <sydna> *steal your laptop
932 2013-05-19 11:13:34 <sydna> or you know, malware could take your unencrypted wallet too.
933 2013-05-19 11:13:58 coolfengyu has joined
934 2013-05-19 11:14:51 <goodbtc> I didn't considered the wallet unencrypted, but the key to open it should have a half sent from the phone with an encrypted message :P
935 2013-05-19 11:15:23 <goodbtc> anyway, if I lose the phone, i'm done
936 2013-05-19 11:15:35 <aadce520e20c2899> what auth implementation are we talking about
937 2013-05-19 11:15:42 warren has left ("Leaving")
938 2013-05-19 11:15:51 <goodbtc> none, my brain version only
939 2013-05-19 11:15:58 <sydna> aadce520e20c2899: we're discussing why you can't use two factor authentication tokens for wallet encryption.
940 2013-05-19 11:16:49 <Brotox> sydna, like wearing two trowsers to protect ur real wallet from getting stealt ?
941 2013-05-19 11:16:55 <sydna> anyway, what you want goodbtc, is a hardware wallet
942 2013-05-19 11:17:13 <sydna> Brotox: only in this case, it's impossible.
943 2013-05-19 11:18:35 <goodbtc> impossible is nothing. :D
944 2013-05-19 11:19:00 <sydna> just get a http://bitcointrezor.com/ and don't worry about it
945 2013-05-19 11:19:39 <goodbtc> i don;t like hardware wallets too much because: all should be the same, when you have 17 versions ppl get confused
946 2013-05-19 11:19:53 <sydna> and don't do what a moron redditor did, which is encode his wallet.dat in hex and embed it in the blockchain.
947 2013-05-19 11:20:45 <goodbtc> i didn't understood him either
948 2013-05-19 11:20:56 <MoALTz> public file store without requiring trust..
949 2013-05-19 11:21:22 <sydna> MoALTz: more to the point, he now has to remember a TXID for the wallet, and it's password
950 2013-05-19 11:21:41 <aadce520e20c2899> I'd grep for it
951 2013-05-19 11:21:56 <sydna> way ahead of you.
952 2013-05-19 11:22:52 <Brotox> what ?
953 2013-05-19 11:22:59 <goodbtc> nothin'
954 2013-05-19 11:23:01 <MoALTz> sydna: may not be so bad. only need to remember as many digits of the txid so that it is the earliest find with this in the blockchain. like how git objects are referenced
955 2013-05-19 11:23:18 <Brotox> encoded his wallet.dat in hex and embed it in blockchain !
956 2013-05-19 11:23:19 <Brotox> hahahahhaa
957 2013-05-19 11:23:26 <sydna> MoALTz: much better off just remembering the seed of a deterministic wallet.
958 2013-05-19 11:23:47 <sydna> MoALTz: one set of data, won't lose change, won't get looted
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966 2013-05-19 11:40:06 <jouke> Can I use this to decode transactions I get from getrawtransaction? https://en.bitcoin.it/w/images/en/e/e1/TxBinaryMap.png
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972 2013-05-19 11:47:55 <sydna> could just `decoderawtransaction`
973 2013-05-19 11:48:08 <sydna> then you get nice delicious JSON
974 2013-05-19 11:48:10 <jouke> I know
975 2013-05-19 11:48:19 <jouke> But I like to do it on my own.
976 2013-05-19 11:51:44 <MC1984> well poached duck eggs are a little things that makes it all worth it
977 2013-05-19 11:52:05 <MC1984> and what a beautiful day in glorious socialist united kingdom
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1014 2013-05-19 13:14:20 <jouke> I am trying to decode my own raw transactions, and I am getting along, but what I don't understand is that sometimes a variable, like the number of TxIns can have a variable amount of bytes. How do I know the amount of bytes I have to use get the amount of txins?
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1016 2013-05-19 13:16:14 <ne0futur> jouke: you read https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transactions#general_format_of_a_Bitcoin_transaction_.28inside_a_block.29 ?
1017 2013-05-19 13:16:54 <jouke> ne0futur: yes
1018 2013-05-19 13:17:12 <jouke> In-counter positive integer 1 - 9 bytes
1019 2013-05-19 13:17:27 <jouke> How do I know if I should use 1 byte, or more?
1020 2013-05-19 13:17:42 <ne0futur> yup I though In-counter was what you needed
1021 2013-05-19 13:18:04 <ne0futur> yup
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1028 2013-05-19 13:23:21 <ne0futur> interesting question indeed
1029 2013-05-19 13:34:31 <ne0futur> same thing for https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block#Block_structure
1030 2013-05-19 13:34:45 <ne0futur> Transaction counter : 1 - 9 bytes
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1032 2013-05-19 13:36:21 <ne0futur> jouke: i ll lurk around hoping to see the answer ;)
1033 2013-05-19 13:37:25 <aadce520e20c2899> 1-9 bytes, that would mean more than 255 inputs? Mine kept failing when I tried that many
1034 2013-05-19 13:38:46 <aadce520e20c2899> can you find a transaction with more than 255 inputs? :P
1035 2013-05-19 13:39:16 <jouke> aadce520e20c2899: it is also used for scriptsig length
1036 2013-05-19 13:40:16 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1037 2013-05-19 13:42:04 * ne0futur trying to find an answer in http://pastebin.com/n8UEGA86
1038 2013-05-19 13:42:27 r0sc0e has joined
1039 2013-05-19 13:42:41 <ne0futur> but my C is 10 year old
1040 2013-05-19 13:43:36 <aadce520e20c2899> I think that just mines on a header
1041 2013-05-19 13:44:03 <ne0futur> yup nothing here
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1045 2013-05-19 13:47:02 * gfawkes stretches it out
1046 2013-05-19 13:47:07 <gfawkes> sup
1047 2013-05-19 13:47:34 Diapolis has joined
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1049 2013-05-19 13:50:15 <ne0futur> https://en.bitcoin.it/w/images/en/e/e1/TxBinaryMap.png
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1051 2013-05-19 13:51:23 <ne0futur> what does the VI means here ?
1052 2013-05-19 13:51:53 <BlueMatt> VarInt
1053 2013-05-19 13:52:42 <jouke> BlueMatt: do you know how I need to interpret that VarInt? How do I know how many bytes I need to use?
1054 2013-05-19 13:53:17 wallet43 has joined
1055 2013-05-19 13:53:34 <Scrat> jouke, you don't unless you know it;s value
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1062 2013-05-19 13:57:57 <jouke> Really? So how do I unserialize a raw transaction then?
1063 2013-05-19 13:59:27 <Scrat> you read the first byte
1064 2013-05-19 13:59:29 <Scrat> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Variable_length_integer
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1066 2013-05-19 14:00:15 <ne0futur> 1st byte is the key ;)
1067 2013-05-19 14:00:19 <ne0futur> thanks Scrat
1068 2013-05-19 14:00:36 <jouke> Thanks, that is exactly what I was looking for :)
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1072 2013-05-19 14:05:59 * ne0futur updating the wiki for this VarInt link
1073 2013-05-19 14:06:08 <aadce520e20c2899> I'm too slow :/ https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/
1074 2013-05-19 14:06:08 <aadce520e20c2899> d3ab598fd5261a89002c0b12913c4f3e22e82f33
1075 2013-05-19 14:06:39 <aadce520e20c2899> and I can't pasted https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/d3ab598fd5261a89002c0b12913c4f3e22e82f33/src/leveldb/util/coding.cc#L47
1076 2013-05-19 14:07:14 <aadce520e20c2899> probably the wrong code too
1077 2013-05-19 14:08:30 <ne0futur> please check my changes
1078 2013-05-19 14:08:33 <ne0futur> [[ Protocol_specification#Variable_length_integer|VI = VarInt]]
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1080 2013-05-19 14:09:38 <ne0futur> doing the same on https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block#Block_structure
1081 2013-05-19 14:10:06 <MC1984> anyone know what -logtoconsole does
1082 2013-05-19 14:10:16 bibbybob has joined
1083 2013-05-19 14:10:19 <MC1984> is it the same as printtoconsole
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1085 2013-05-19 14:10:49 <Scrat> wondering how much you can compress the blockchain knowing everything about the data, performing EC math and not having to be 8 bit aligned
1086 2013-05-19 14:11:06 <ne0futur> i think my wiki edit is correct, but still, jouke or Scrat can you confirm ?
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1088 2013-05-19 14:11:17 <Scrat> so much stuff being repeated that convential compression algos can't catch
1089 2013-05-19 14:11:42 <Scrat> an pubkey lookup table for one
1090 2013-05-19 14:11:44 <Scrat> a*
1091 2013-05-19 14:12:04 <BlueMatt> meh, just prune it and throw out the blocks if you care so much about space
1092 2013-05-19 14:12:23 <jouke> ne0futur: looks ok to me :)
1093 2013-05-19 14:12:31 <Scrat> BlueMatt: nah, just that it would a fun project to see how much I can push it
1094 2013-05-19 14:13:00 <BlueMatt> would be an even more fun project if you made bitcoinj a high performance db for pruned mode
1095 2013-05-19 14:13:56 <BlueMatt> (essentially just make a db that is designed for large commits with lots of updates at once)
1096 2013-05-19 14:14:06 <BlueMatt> (and lots of very constant-size records)
1097 2013-05-19 14:14:26 <Scrat> not smart enough to contribute to clients (especially java, argh)
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1099 2013-05-19 14:14:39 <MC1984> and -debug?
1100 2013-05-19 14:16:43 <ne0futur> jouke: ;) pretty sure you and me wont be the last ones to need this link ;)
1101 2013-05-19 14:17:07 <ne0futur> jouke: and the varstring is worst, beginning with a varint ;)
1102 2013-05-19 14:18:31 <sipa> Scrat: the UTXO storage format alread does EC pubkey compression for example
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1105 2013-05-19 14:26:00 <Scrat> sipa sure but it is small anyway. it would be awesome to compress the entire history to 1 GB
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1108 2013-05-19 14:31:06 <sipa> i don't think that's possible
1109 2013-05-19 14:31:15 <sipa> 2-3 maybe
1110 2013-05-19 14:31:35 <sipa> but i don't think it's a priority anyway, i'd rather work on pruning history
1111 2013-05-19 14:32:36 <Scrat> it's not a priority, in fact it's almost useless. but codec design is what I love :p
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1126 2013-05-19 15:08:20 <buZz> can someone tell me current size of bitcoin blockchain?
1127 2013-05-19 15:09:26 <gwillen> buZz: it's about 8.6 gig on my hard drive, but I think actual filesize may vary slightly
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1130 2013-05-19 15:09:33 <buZz> nice, tnx
1131 2013-05-19 15:09:35 <gwillen> np
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1133 2013-05-19 15:10:03 <panzer> mine is 9.3 gigs
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1135 2013-05-19 15:10:40 <sipa> including or excluding undo data, block index, and current state?
1136 2013-05-19 15:10:53 <panzer> including everything
1137 2013-05-19 15:10:58 <sipa> (which are not really part of the chain, but consume some space on disk)
1138 2013-05-19 15:12:37 <gwillen> including everything stored in the bitcoin folder, 11G for me. 8.6 was just the 'blocks' folder.
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1142 2013-05-19 15:13:57 <sipa> just blocks is 8.1 GB
1143 2013-05-19 15:14:23 <goodbtc> it can be pruned again soon to keep it under 10 GB?
1144 2013-05-19 15:14:40 <sipa> in theory it can be pruned to 0.3 GB or so
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1146 2013-05-19 15:15:45 <goodbtc> we don;t really want that?
1147 2013-05-19 15:16:05 <sipa> the problem is not implemening it
1148 2013-05-19 15:16:24 <sipa> it's figuring out how new nodes will be able to download the chain if not everyone stores it anymore
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1170 2013-05-19 15:31:54 <jouke> What does "sequence" do in transactions?
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1178 2013-05-19 15:38:40 <sipa> jouke: it's for transactionr replacement, which is dsiabled now
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1181 2013-05-19 15:42:19 <jouke> Hmmm, ok.
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1206 2013-05-19 16:02:32 <MC1984> ok so ive moved my bitcoin install to external drive
1207 2013-05-19 16:02:40 <MC1984> Default data directory C:\Documents and Settings\Application Data\Bitcoin
1208 2013-05-19 16:02:40 <MC1984> Using data directory E:\Blockchain
1209 2013-05-19 16:02:52 <MC1984> and then i get this
1210 2013-05-19 16:03:11 <MC1984> E:\Blockchain\Daemon>bitcoind.exe getinfo
1211 2013-05-19 16:03:11 <MC1984> error: You must set rpcpassword=<password> in the configuration file:
1212 2013-05-19 16:03:11 <MC1984> C:\Documents and Settings\Application Data\Bitcoin\bitcoin.conf
1213 2013-05-19 16:03:11 <MC1984> If the file does not exist, create it with owner-readable-only file permissions.
1214 2013-05-19 16:03:13 <MC1984> on the cmd line
1215 2013-05-19 16:03:19 <MC1984> terminal, whatever
1216 2013-05-19 16:03:31 <MC1984> bug?
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1219 2013-05-19 16:04:11 <MC1984> there is a conf file with rpcpassword set in the e:\blockchain, where ive told it to run out of
1220 2013-05-19 16:04:46 <MC1984> but its still looking in the default location
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1225 2013-05-19 16:11:59 <jouke> MC1984: try: bitcoind.exe -datadir=e:\blockchain getinfo
1226 2013-05-19 16:12:39 brwyatt_ is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt_
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1228 2013-05-19 16:14:16 <MC1984> jouke ok that worked, but damned if im typing all that in every time i want to issue a command
1229 2013-05-19 16:15:06 <MC1984> i thought the bitcoind would go with it since its already running and been passed the -datadir command
1230 2013-05-19 16:15:54 <MC1984> i mean its not like running bitcoind.exe getinfo invokes a new instance is it
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1233 2013-05-19 16:20:45 <jgm> MC1984: you need the datadir info to work out if you're running on prod or test
1234 2013-05-19 16:21:00 <jgm> (And hence which port to use when attempting to connect to the daemon)
1235 2013-05-19 16:22:43 <MC1984> yeah i know, i just didint think i would have to pass datadir to it every time i want to do something with the daemon
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1237 2013-05-19 16:23:32 <gmaxwell> MC1984: in bash on linux... alias bd='/path/bitcoind -datadir=foo'
1238 2013-05-19 16:23:40 <gmaxwell> I dunno what to suggest on windows. :(
1239 2013-05-19 16:23:48 <MC1984> issuing rpc commands formt he terminal must technically invoke a new instance then
1240 2013-05-19 16:25:06 <MC1984> gmaxwell i can make junction points on windows, but ive just stuck a conf back where it wants it instead
1241 2013-05-19 16:25:46 <MC1984> i just needed to get the chain off my system drive, down to 2GB free
1242 2013-05-19 16:26:45 <MC1984> i have a server upstairs with 1.5TB, but its dead due to a bulged capacitor on the board, and my solder iron is also broke :(
1243 2013-05-19 16:27:00 <gonffen> you can fix it witha n oven
1244 2013-05-19 16:27:02 <gonffen> er
1245 2013-05-19 16:27:31 <MC1984> oven a capacitor?
1246 2013-05-19 16:27:32 <gonffen> do they have loaner irons at the parts store?
1247 2013-05-19 16:27:39 <gonffen> I was making a bad joke
1248 2013-05-19 16:27:49 <MC1984> oh
1249 2013-05-19 16:28:03 <gonffen> if you go into #litecoin, a common conversation is about putting graphics cards in the oven
1250 2013-05-19 16:28:18 <gonffen> as if, if the hardware fails you can just bake it willy nilly and it'll work again
1251 2013-05-19 16:28:30 <MC1984> one of the power FETs in the base station of my iron is cracked/exploded
1252 2013-05-19 16:28:35 <MC1984> and i need an iron to fix it
1253 2013-05-19 16:28:47 <donpdonp> lol. its funny because an oven is used to test the endurance of pc boards by shortening its lifespan
1254 2013-05-19 16:28:48 <MC1984> so its like hey dog i herd you like soldering
1255 2013-05-19 16:29:02 <MC1984> and the irony of it killed my desire to bother fixing any thing
1256 2013-05-19 16:29:59 <MoALTz> can you temporarily fix the connection on the iron (wire bypass) then soldier it? (bootstrapping)
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1258 2013-05-19 16:30:42 <gonffen> donpdonp: I think they're theory is related to reflowing the gpu
1259 2013-05-19 16:30:46 <gonffen> which okay whatever
1260 2013-05-19 16:30:58 <gonffen> but it isn't as simple as just baking whatever you've got...
1261 2013-05-19 16:31:05 <gonffen> I've never done it and I know that much
1262 2013-05-19 16:31:14 <gonffen> their*
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1266 2013-05-19 16:36:39 <MC1984> its a temperature controlled unit
1267 2013-05-19 16:36:51 <MC1984> jumping a transistor would probably blow it up
1268 2013-05-19 16:36:58 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: you dont happen to have a way of physically contacting mike, do you?
1269 2013-05-19 16:37:32 <MC1984> gonffen caps usually bulge sue to heat and drying out
1270 2013-05-19 16:38:05 <gonffen> ya I know
1271 2013-05-19 16:38:10 <MC1984> and an interesting case of industrial espionage in fucking china a few years ago
1272 2013-05-19 16:38:14 bakingbread has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1273 2013-05-19 16:38:19 <gonffen> there is a lot of bad advice there
1274 2013-05-19 16:39:27 Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1275 2013-05-19 16:39:41 <BlueMatt> anyone here at the conference?
1276 2013-05-19 16:39:54 <MC1984> ovening works when you have dry balls on a bga package
1277 2013-05-19 16:39:56 <MC1984> sometimes
1278 2013-05-19 16:40:07 <MC1984> total bodge though
1279 2013-05-19 16:40:15 rushed has joined
1280 2013-05-19 16:40:40 <MC1984> very ghetto way to reflow, usually breaks again
1281 2013-05-19 16:41:31 <gonffen> ya I know a few people who have done it
1282 2013-05-19 16:41:46 bakingbread has joined
1283 2013-05-19 16:41:49 <gonffen> a friend of mine told me about buying a few 360s on ebay once that were RROD
1284 2013-05-19 16:42:03 <gonffen> he repaired them all with either a heat gun or a blow dryer
1285 2013-05-19 16:42:11 <gonffen> he said they'd work a few months like that...
1286 2013-05-19 16:44:14 brwyatt_ is now known as brwyatt_|Away
1287 2013-05-19 16:46:27 <MC1984> You could wrap it up in a jumper and let it oven itself into working, true story
1288 2013-05-19 16:46:52 <MC1984> the v1 360s were terrible hardware and it cost MS a billion dollars in extended warranty programs lol
1289 2013-05-19 16:47:37 <gonffen> lol
1290 2013-05-19 16:48:07 <gonffen> ya my 360 had to be repaired under warranty twice
1291 2013-05-19 16:48:27 qwerty has joined
1292 2013-05-19 16:48:40 <gonffen> when the laser went out of spec I ended up frying it when I was readjusting it
1293 2013-05-19 16:48:50 <gonffen> and the assembly I bought from China apparently didn't work
1294 2013-05-19 16:48:55 <gonffen> I don't want to talk about the 360 lol
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1316 2013-05-19 17:24:27 <diki> Hmm, new bug https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=210254.msg2198938;boardseen#new
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1369 2013-05-19 18:25:51 <jouke> decoderawtransaction outputs the key: asm. Is that sig<whitespace>pubkey?
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1435 2013-05-19 19:20:14 <Lolcust> A silly question: does UTXO itself contain information regarding how many confirmations a given TX has ?
1436 2013-05-19 19:20:56 <BlueMatt> I think you are confused or not a native speaker, but I believe the answer is yes
1437 2013-05-19 19:21:29 <Lolcust> Well, I am Belorussian so not a very native speaker :-)
1438 2013-05-19 19:21:35 <BlueMatt> at least, a stored utxo set used for full verification must contain information on depth of utxo element to verify coinbase spends
1439 2013-05-19 19:21:59 <BlueMatt> for anything but coinbase outputs, no
1440 2013-05-19 19:22:31 <Lolcust> Okay, now I am certainly confused
1441 2013-05-19 19:23:19 <Lolcust> So current sipa 's ultraprune implementation only stores depth of utxo element for coinbase outputs ?
1442 2013-05-19 19:23:29 rushed has quit (Quit: rushed)
1443 2013-05-19 19:23:41 <BlueMatt> no I think it stores for all utxo, but it doesnt need to
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1445 2013-05-19 19:23:47 <Lolcust> Oh, okay
1446 2013-05-19 19:23:57 <Lolcust> That's what I needed to know, thanks
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1464 2013-05-19 19:47:31 <MC1984> why is there a giant ascii bitcoin logo in the most recent commit
1465 2013-05-19 19:47:44 <sydna> link?
1466 2013-05-19 19:48:05 <MC1984> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/f7f940336ed6ac8ff9d1474b3f1254f71d2ddb3d
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1468 2013-05-19 19:48:50 <sydna> ...
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1470 2013-05-19 19:49:21 <sipa> Lolcust: it stores the height for all transactions
1471 2013-05-19 19:49:22 <sydna> what on earth is XPM?
1472 2013-05-19 19:49:22 <michagogo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_PixMap
1473 2013-05-19 19:49:39 bitWorks has quit (Quit: bitWorks)
1474 2013-05-19 19:49:49 <Lolcust> Thanks
1475 2013-05-19 19:49:52 <sydna> should I make an ANSI one too then?
1476 2013-05-19 19:50:16 <michagogo> My understanding is it's not displayed as text
1477 2013-05-19 19:50:34 <wumpus> xpm is an image format, a very ancient one at that
1478 2013-05-19 19:50:47 <MC1984> what is the purpose of this
1479 2013-05-19 19:50:51 dlunch has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1480 2013-05-19 19:50:52 <sydna> ^
1481 2013-05-19 19:50:57 <wumpus> read the pull request
1482 2013-05-19 19:51:41 <wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2650
1483 2013-05-19 19:51:44 <sydna> weird.
1484 2013-05-19 19:51:47 <MC1984> oh wow its a way to layer colour over crappy ascii pix
1485 2013-05-19 19:52:00 <MC1984> its like an official thing
1486 2013-05-19 19:52:03 <MC1984> damn nerds
1487 2013-05-19 19:52:11 <sydna> it's a format I've literally never encountered
1488 2013-05-19 19:53:10 <roconnor> hi sipa
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1491 2013-05-19 19:53:51 <wumpus> I never use it either, but seemingly some linux distributions still use it for menu icons
1492 2013-05-19 19:54:06 <wumpus> I don't think there's a good reason to use it over png except for legacy
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1498 2013-05-19 19:56:31 <sydna> time to crack out ACiD draw I suppose
1499 2013-05-19 19:56:33 <MC1984> he says something about package managers
1500 2013-05-19 19:56:51 <MC1984> that need an image format from 1987
1501 2013-05-19 19:56:58 <MC1984> come on linux are you even trying
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1503 2013-05-19 19:58:15 <sydna> it's probably more verbose than PNG, so they can't even claim size restrictions
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1514 2013-05-19 20:12:57 <diki> What would UTXO stand for?
1515 2013-05-19 20:13:04 <diki> "Unspent transaction output?
1516 2013-05-19 20:14:29 <michagogo> yep
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1589 2013-05-19 21:32:11 <MC1984> running bitcoind with -debug and -printtoconsole is......dizzying
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1591 2013-05-19 21:32:59 <MC1984> i get a sense of why its called a flood network
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1595 2013-05-19 21:35:51 <ghash2> hi guys, is it possible to point a mining pool (what pool software doesnt matter) to another pool?
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1598 2013-05-19 21:36:18 <ghash2> like, I connect my machines to a personal pool where I have all the raw statistics in a shell, and that pool connects to a different, bigger pool ( like 50btc)
1599 2013-05-19 21:36:54 <MC1984> i herd you like pools
1600 2013-05-19 21:37:01 <ghash2> :D
1601 2013-05-19 21:37:09 <MC1984> so we put a pool in ur pool so you can mine while you mine
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1603 2013-05-19 21:37:19 <ghash2> thats exactly what i want
1604 2013-05-19 21:37:33 <MC1984> you can make subpools with p2pool
1605 2013-05-19 21:37:45 <MC1984> dunno about anything else
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1609 2013-05-19 21:38:48 <Zoop_> because it seems appropriate:
1610 2013-05-19 21:38:50 <Zoop_> http://rss.computerworld.com/~r/computerworld/news/feed/~3/O6Q-lqw8EXQ/Bitcoin_developer_talks_regulation_open_source_and_the_elusive_Satoshi_Nakamoto
1611 2013-05-19 21:41:16 <MC1984> i bet jeff says something a bit trollerific in that
1612 2013-05-19 21:41:23 <MC1984> he seems to like doing that
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1614 2013-05-19 21:42:45 <Zoop_> he says bitcoin v0.1 was crap
1615 2013-05-19 21:43:03 <MC1984> "my dad works for the CIA and we talk about bitcoin all the time"
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1617 2013-05-19 21:43:28 <MC1984> 0.1 was crap though afaik, as you would expect
1618 2013-05-19 21:43:38 <MC1984> like "this barely works, but its possible"
1619 2013-05-19 21:44:15 <Zoop_> he implies it could have been easily hacked in the first 6 months
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1622 2013-05-19 21:44:52 <MC1984> it was hacked way after 6 months
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1626 2013-05-19 21:47:45 <MC1984> "That's essentially modelled after natural resource extraction, gold mining and coal mining."
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1630 2013-05-19 21:48:44 <MC1984> is this the official narrative now? I thought that satoshi pulled the coin mining curve essentially out of his ass, like the 21m limit
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1632 2013-05-19 21:49:50 <Cusipzzz> pretty sure satoshi mentioned something like that in one of his posts
1633 2013-05-19 21:50:31 <MC1984> hm
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1635 2013-05-19 21:50:47 <MC1984> i wish someone would compile his teachings in one place
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1639 2013-05-19 21:56:34 <MC1984> "My personal opinion of him as a project leader is that he's not a good project leader. My opinion of him as an engineer is that he's a mediocre engineer. "
1640 2013-05-19 21:56:46 <MC1984> teehee thats the trollshot
1641 2013-05-19 21:56:53 <MC1984> its probably fair comment though
1642 2013-05-19 21:58:20 <MC1984> then again it only reinforces satoshies genius, that he knew he had these shortcomings an chose to bow out at the right time and let others carry the flame
1643 2013-05-19 21:58:24 <MC1984> hail stoshi
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1651 2013-05-19 22:05:06 <Edward_Black> Well, whether bitcoin is modelled after natural resource extraction depends on whether you include the as-of-yet unobserved (but logically imminent) depletion eventualities into your model
1652 2013-05-19 22:05:19 <Edward_Black> But I suspect this discussion is very offtop for the dev channel
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1659 2013-05-19 22:12:01 <MC1984> all the devs are at the conference for the weekend
1660 2013-05-19 22:12:05 <MC1984> HOUSE PARTY
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1663 2013-05-19 22:15:22 * Edward_Black procures [REDACTED] from [SITE EXPUNGED], starts smoking, offers MC1984 a joint
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1665 2013-05-19 22:16:22 <phantomcircuit> Edward_Black, are you retarded
1666 2013-05-19 22:16:26 <phantomcircuit> get that out of here
1667 2013-05-19 22:17:13 * Edward_Black wonders if meta-humorous or not
1668 2013-05-19 22:17:38 <Edward_Black> okay, no more sillyness :~)
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1674 2013-05-19 22:27:05 <phantomcircuit> Edward_Black, you would probably be banned by now if all the ops werent buy
1675 2013-05-19 22:27:06 <phantomcircuit> busy*
1676 2013-05-19 22:27:07 <phantomcircuit> lol
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1678 2013-05-19 22:27:35 <Edward_Black> phantomcircuit well, it was a bit of silly humor pertaining to he house party comment
1679 2013-05-19 22:27:42 <jouke> lmao
1680 2013-05-19 22:28:09 <phantomcircuit> Edward_Black, this is the internet, not a place for your silly humor
1681 2013-05-19 22:28:09 <Edward_Black> And I guess it was, in a way, spot on - given that ops are indeed busy
1682 2013-05-19 22:28:24 <phantomcircuit> ;)
1683 2013-05-19 22:28:31 <Edward_Black> oh, touche
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