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  34 2013-05-20 00:41:01 <diki> Wow, I'm browsing and see an add that mentions the game Magic: The Gathering
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  52 2013-05-20 01:21:05 <amiller> why do people mine for bitcoins?
  53 2013-05-20 01:21:13 <amiller> is it because they have unused CPU cycles?
  54 2013-05-20 01:21:34 <amiller> or because they have some gold-rush fever and want to win something cool
  55 2013-05-20 01:22:12 <amiller> there's lots of projects that are about harvesting 'unused idle ambient cpu cycles' like folding@home and seti@home, anything @home really
  56 2013-05-20 01:22:21 <amiller> the prime number finding stuff
  57 2013-05-20 01:22:24 <amiller> all of them are pretty damn lame.
  58 2013-05-20 01:22:36 <Zoop_> pretty sure we don't use cpus anymore
  59 2013-05-20 01:22:37 <amiller> does anyone think that's what makes bitcoin work?
  60 2013-05-20 01:22:48 savetheinternet has joined
  61 2013-05-20 01:22:54 <amiller> well sure maybe we use idle unused spare cycles on our GPUs though?
  62 2013-05-20 01:22:54 brson has joined
  63 2013-05-20 01:23:08 <amiller> i think the behavior of bitcoin miners is completely unrelated to that
  64 2013-05-20 01:23:24 <Zoop_> most of them are leaving gpus too
  65 2013-05-20 01:23:25 <amiller> no one 'donates' their cpu power, and 'one cpu one vote' has never been about people's home computers
  66 2013-05-20 01:23:44 <amiller> in fact if you did want it to be about donating cpu power you probably wouldn't even need to give anyone an incentive
  67 2013-05-20 01:23:47 <Zoop_> and btw
  68 2013-05-20 01:23:51 <Zoop_> BOINC ftw
  69 2013-05-20 01:24:13 <amiller> i say BTC is about lottery design.
  70 2013-05-20 01:24:27 <amiller> people mine for bitcoin for the same reason they play the state lotto, and in fact for the same reason they play satoshidice
  71 2013-05-20 01:24:28 <Cusipzzz> not everyone wants to get paid. people mine unprofitably and run nodes to support the network
  72 2013-05-20 01:26:13 <roconnor> hi amiller
  73 2013-05-20 01:26:17 <amiller> hi roconnor
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  75 2013-05-20 01:27:09 <amiller> roconnor, btw, i have help professional help now, I'm writing a paper for popl about merkle things :)
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  78 2013-05-20 01:27:20 <roconnor> horray
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  81 2013-05-20 01:29:19 <mischief> must i construct a tree to figure out the longest chain?
  82 2013-05-20 01:30:01 <amiller> "51% honest" is a crap model because it does such a poor job of explaining what actually goes on, and for that matter it says nothing about why having an "incentive" is effective at all
  83 2013-05-20 01:30:03 <franl> mischief, well, a very tall very narrow tree.
  84 2013-05-20 01:30:43 <amiller> you could have a crappy altcoin with no fees and no block reward and all the analysis in the Satoshi whitepaper would read exactly the same
  85 2013-05-20 01:30:59 <amiller> and no one would want to mine and it would be insecure
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  87 2013-05-20 01:31:31 <amiller> "51% greedy and predictable" is closer to the point, and that includes mining unprofitably
  88 2013-05-20 01:31:34 <franl> amiller, are you implying the fees and block reward are the source of Bitcoin's security?
  89 2013-05-20 01:31:38 <amiller> franl, yes
  90 2013-05-20 01:31:51 <amiller> yes of course i am, and i feel like that's common knowledge to everyone, isn't it?
  91 2013-05-20 01:31:57 <franl> amiller, because they keep the majority of miners honest?
  92 2013-05-20 01:31:59 <roconnor> amiller, well, block reward.  It's to early to say fees will work.
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  94 2013-05-20 01:32:37 <amiller> franl, they keep the majority of miners "behaving basically the same as though they were honest" or something to that effect
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  98 2013-05-20 01:33:05 <amiller> the best success story is the botnet bitcoin miners that just act like ordinary bitcoin miners
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 100 2013-05-20 01:33:18 <amiller> they're obviously not in it for altruism, or because they love following rules
 101 2013-05-20 01:33:54 <amiller> but hmm, profit-seeking with an appetite for risk? bingo!
 102 2013-05-20 01:34:58 <franl> How else to create new BTC and assign it ownership?  A lottery?
 103 2013-05-20 01:35:11 <amiller> well it already IS a lottery
 104 2013-05-20 01:35:15 <franl> Indeed.
 105 2013-05-20 01:35:23 <amiller> but if we start to think of it as a lottery design problem, some more options open up.
 106 2013-05-20 01:35:56 <amiller> If you took bitcoin and presented it to a casino or a state lottery consultant, i think they'd point to SatoshiDice and say "there's your untapped market! SD is eating your lunch! why do you only have 1 game? where's the scratch-off-5 tickets?"
 107 2013-05-20 01:37:16 <franl> Thing is: there's no "you" (as in "why do you only ...").  It's a collective.
 108 2013-05-20 01:37:53 <amiller> well for the sake of the collective, I hope we remain open to new ideas
 109 2013-05-20 01:37:53 <franl> New games can evolve.  Nothing prevents it.
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 111 2013-05-20 01:44:15 <amiller> well no, so far the protocol *does* prevent it
 112 2013-05-20 01:49:07 <roconnor> has there been any previous discussion on bitcoin talk about clockless alt-chains?
 113 2013-05-20 01:50:39 <amiller> roconnor, i don't believe so, that sounds fascinating though
 114 2013-05-20 01:51:20 <gonffen> what is a clockless chain?
 115 2013-05-20 01:52:27 <super3> altcoins that bring nothing to the table i assume
 116 2013-05-20 01:52:52 <super3> altcoin that just do a ctrl+f "bitcoin" to "stupidcoin" then release
 117 2013-05-20 01:52:54 <amiller> there has been a little bit of talk about altchains where the proof-of-work difficulty is choose-your-own or adjusts according to demand in some way but i don't think any of them ended up with much clarity
 118 2013-05-20 01:54:14 <super3> can someone take a look over my pull? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2666
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 124 2013-05-20 02:14:03 <franl> roconnor, by "clockless" do you mean not having timestamps in the blocks?  Just using the previous hash to create a total ordering?
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 130 2013-05-20 02:22:20 <franl> Or do you mean asynchronous (unclocked) hardware?
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 146 2013-05-20 02:41:52 <Kinnard__> What are the delimiters inside of a block?
 147 2013-05-20 02:42:33 <franl> Kinnard__, delimiters?  A block is not text.
 148 2013-05-20 02:43:45 <franl> Kinnard__, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#block
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 150 2013-05-20 02:46:08 <Kinnard__> Right but looking in blk001.dat its stored as text, no?
 151 2013-05-20 02:46:21 <Kinnard__> Does the client just know how long each field is supposed to be?
 152 2013-05-20 02:47:23 <franl> My blk*.dat files appear to be binary data.
 153 2013-05-20 02:48:10 <franl> Hence the "field size" column at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#block
 154 2013-05-20 02:48:39 <amiller> Kinnard__, like many binary data formats, it's possible to parse the block data without delimiters because there is usually a fixed length 'size' field preceding anything of variable size
 155 2013-05-20 02:49:35 <franl> Which is classically how binary formats represent variable-width data.
 156 2013-05-20 02:50:49 <franl> (Not just binary formats: consider the Content-Length header in RFC-822)
 157 2013-05-20 02:51:49 <franl> Er ... RTC-2616 I mean.
 158 2013-05-20 02:52:02 <franl> *RFC
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 165 2013-05-20 02:59:45 <Kinnard__> So then, where are the size fields?
 166 2013-05-20 03:01:47 <super3> hey can someone give me an idea on what need to get fixed in the bitcoin documenation first?
 167 2013-05-20 03:01:48 <franl> In the block.
 168 2013-05-20 03:02:14 <franl> Some fields are fixed size, like "version".
 169 2013-05-20 03:02:28 <franl> Other fields include the size as part of the data.
 170 2013-05-20 03:03:13 <Kinnard__> @Fran1 Right where in the block? How big are there? In the description of the specification there seem to be only two that aren't fixed tx-count and txs
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 173 2013-05-20 03:05:19 <franl> Kinnard__, yes, some fields are var_int's: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#Variable_length_integer
 174 2013-05-20 03:05:51 <franl> which is why there's a "?" in the field size column.
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 177 2013-05-20 03:07:51 <Kinnard__> @fran1 So How does the client know when to stop reading data as tx-count and start reading it as txs
 178 2013-05-20 03:08:20 <Kinnard__> @fran1 where(in what files) is the intake of blockdata coded
 179 2013-05-20 03:08:33 <Kinnard__> sorry for the barrage of questions thanks for your help
 180 2013-05-20 03:08:34 <franl> Kinnard__, a var_int has a deterministic size ... it just varies.
 181 2013-05-20 03:08:45 <franl> Read the link I gave you.
 182 2013-05-20 03:09:48 BTCOxygen is now known as VPS!~BTCOxygen@unaffiliated/btcoxygen/bot/btcoxygen2|BTCOxygen`
 183 2013-05-20 03:10:52 <Diablo-D3> http://zedboard.org/
 184 2013-05-20 03:10:53 <Diablo-D3> huh
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 189 2013-05-20 03:17:35 <chalkers> Helloy
 190 2013-05-20 03:19:32 <chalkers> What's the difference between an account and an address?
 191 2013-05-20 03:19:54 <chalkers> It's a 1:1 relationship right?
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 194 2013-05-20 03:24:27 <Kinnard__> @fran1 so the size is a of a var_int is a data member of the var_int class?
 195 2013-05-20 03:24:39 <Kinnard__> -is a
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 197 2013-05-20 03:27:56 <franl> Kinnard__, if I understand your question, yes, a var_int has a self-describing size.
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 199 2013-05-20 03:28:48 <Kinnard__> cool
 200 2013-05-20 03:28:53 <Kinnard__> Which functions in the client are responsible for parsing blockdata?
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 202 2013-05-20 03:34:09 <franl> Sorry.  Wish I knew.  I'm not familiar with the source.  But this is the right place to ask.
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 213 2013-05-20 03:38:42 <Kinnard__> @fran1 Thanks for your help
 214 2013-05-20 03:38:51 <Kinnard__> I think I've found it
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 236 2013-05-20 04:30:26 <midnightmagic> Zoop_: That's..  quite the shift. For a really long time, in public, Jeff was fairly adamant that bitcoins are not anonymous. I suppose it could be said just that nobody ever asked him to fully clarify.
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 253 2013-05-20 05:18:09 <roconnor> franl, I mean no timestamps
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 280 2013-05-20 06:19:43 <amiller> roconnor i've spent a bunch of time trying to work out a clockless bitcoin that still solves a form of byzantine consensus
 281 2013-05-20 06:20:14 <amiller> i think clocklessness is really important and when it comes to that kind of stuff, the distributed systems research papers from the 80's/90's are really deep and fascinating
 282 2013-05-20 06:20:52 <amiller> bitcoin in several places relies on assuming a synchronous network where you can just say 'all the important messages are diffused to the whole network with in 2 minutes' or something like that
 283 2013-05-20 06:21:15 <zooko> Heh. That's why I didn't get interested in Bitcoin when I first heard of it. ☺
 284 2013-05-20 06:22:44 <amiller> the timestamps are are only explicitly used for adjusting the difficulty, but the difficulty has to be tuned pretty carefully
 285 2013-05-20 06:23:43 <amiller> because the faster it is, the less plausible it is that the messages diffuse fast enough, and basically more proof-of-work is wasted to stale/discarded blocks
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 289 2013-05-20 06:27:51 <amiller> the magic time constants are a) the 10 minutes between blocks, b) the two weeks in between difficulty updates, and c) the 2 hr maximum forward clock skew
 290 2013-05-20 06:28:00 <phantomcircuit> amiller, afaik most of the miners dont actually use the network time
 291 2013-05-20 06:28:15 <phantomcircuit> they use their own clock
 292 2013-05-20 06:29:06 <amiller> so my definition of a "clockless" bitcoin is that it would have to eliminate all of those, and i haven't been able to work out a way to do that that doesn't involve massive dos vulnerability
 293 2013-05-20 06:29:46 <roconnor> amiller, the whole diffusion of messages problem feels overstated to me
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 297 2013-05-20 06:31:40 <amiller> roconnor, how so? do you mean that complete message diffusion might not be necessary and even partial message propagation could be enough?
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 300 2013-05-20 06:34:40 <roconnor> that's what I think
 301 2013-05-20 06:34:55 <roconnor> for transactions, it seems clear that slow diffusion is fine.
 302 2013-05-20 06:35:03 <roconnor> for blocks, I still think so diffusion isn't so bad.
 303 2013-05-20 06:35:11 <roconnor> *slow diffusion
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 305 2013-05-20 06:37:38 <amiller> yeah could be, still the diffusion would have to be 'good enough' in some way
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 307 2013-05-20 06:39:38 <roconnor> maybe I should do some math, but my intuition tells me that due to chance "eventually" some longer chain will get spread out and dominate and that eventually is probably on the order of a couple of block cycles.
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 311 2013-05-20 06:40:17 <roconnor> the whole longest chain thing feels like it should be quite stable.
 312 2013-05-20 06:40:18 <amiller> how would you model the netowrk
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 314 2013-05-20 06:41:13 <amiller> i'm formally satisfied that the longest chain thing is stable, given a well behaved synchronous broadcast network with some maximum propagation time Delta
 315 2013-05-20 06:41:27 <roconnor> I have no idea
 316 2013-05-20 06:43:32 <roconnor> I guess I'd model the network as a collection of workers with random  delayed communication according to an exponential distribution with every other node.
 317 2013-05-20 06:43:46 <roconnor> possibly not a great model.
 318 2013-05-20 06:44:38 <amiller> ok so still broadcast but with every fraction portion of the network covered within some finite time
 319 2013-05-20 06:45:07 <amiller> for example, block propagation to 75% of the network within expected 90 seconds or something
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 321 2013-05-20 06:51:03 <amiller> i believe that would still count as plenty well-behaved enough, but the natural thing to do still is say "we have characterized the message propagation distribution and it is f, and we have tuned the interblock time based on f"
 322 2013-05-20 06:53:19 <roconnor> amiller, is it even worth tuning the interblock time?  I'm sort of thinking of tying the block reward to the amount of work.  And my thoughts on the subject are fairly wishy-washy.
 323 2013-05-20 06:53:37 aadce520e20c2899 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 324 2013-05-20 06:54:28 <roconnor> I'm vaguely imagining a system where people do as much work as they feel like and miners decide whether they feel like building on top of someone's weak block or orphan it.
 325 2013-05-20 06:54:35 <roconnor> very sketchy thinking on my part.
 326 2013-05-20 06:54:47 <amiller> i'm with you, i still really thing something like that will work
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 328 2013-05-20 06:55:05 <amiller> the kind of formal claim i would want about it is based on 'partially synchronous' in distributed systems literature
 329 2013-05-20 06:55:33 <amiller> it basically says "go ahead and assume that the network is well behaved according to some distribution or w/e. But you can't configure your protocol explicitly knowing those parameters"
 330 2013-05-20 06:56:38 <amiller> it just has to sort itself out whatever those parameters turn out to be
 331 2013-05-20 06:56:53 <roconnor> amiller, sounds like you have found some interesting readings
 332 2013-05-20 06:57:03 <amiller> the reason that this isn't trivial is because of DoS though
 333 2013-05-20 06:57:14 <roconnor> tell me about the DoS?
 334 2013-05-20 06:57:23 <amiller> if you are allowed to set your own work rate, how do you keep from relay spamming everyone else
 335 2013-05-20 06:58:59 <roconnor> how do we stop people from spamming orphan blocks or "orphan" transactions today?
 336 2013-05-20 06:59:03 <amiller> the neat thing about the current network and the strict work-clock means that it's safe to relay blocks even if you can't fully validate them yet, just as long as they have valid proof of work
 337 2013-05-20 07:00:38 <roconnor> amiller, I don't see how the strict world-clock is helping.
 338 2013-05-20 07:01:16 <amiller> well, the decision of when to relay or not is unambiguously defined rihgt now
 339 2013-05-20 07:01:23 <amiller> relay the block if it has valid work
 340 2013-05-20 07:01:42 <amiller> and that's sufficient to prevent dos basically because of how conservative the work is
 341 2013-05-20 07:01:50 Julius129 has quit ()
 342 2013-05-20 07:01:58 <amiller> but if it's acceptable for a legit node to send blocks every 2 seconds then there's potentially a whole lot more to relay
 343 2013-05-20 07:02:32 <roconnor> amiller, so it has to have enough work at the current difficulty level?
 344 2013-05-20 07:02:35 <roconnor> to be relayed?
 345 2013-05-20 07:02:39 <amiller> yes
 346 2013-05-20 07:03:08 <roconnor> but it doesn't have to be built upon a known block?
 347 2013-05-20 07:05:13 <amiller> i'm suddenly not confident about this, but i believe that orphan blocks are relayed immediately if they have valid work even if they can't be attached / fully validated
 348 2013-05-20 07:05:24 <roconnor> interesting
 349 2013-05-20 07:05:34 <roconnor> networking is hard
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 352 2013-05-20 07:07:54 <roconnor> amiller, I personally would be inclined to never relay a block with an unknown parent.
 353 2013-05-20 07:08:14 <roconnor> but that doesn't really address your DoS issue
 354 2013-05-20 07:08:34 Arnavion has joined
 355 2013-05-20 07:08:58 <amiller> yeah, for the sake of conversation since i am struggling to grep through this code to answer my question... assume that relaying only occurs for blocks with valid work and known parents, but not necessarily the main chain
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 359 2013-05-20 07:12:39 <amiller> then in that case the strict work limit is an effective dos prevention but if there were no work rule then it would be an unclear decision how many/which blocks to relay
 360 2013-05-20 07:13:15 Skav has joined
 361 2013-05-20 07:13:20 <roconnor> right
 362 2013-05-20 07:13:45 <roconnor> I'm thinking that you could refuse to relay blocks that are not on your main chain, but I'm not sure that really addresses the problem either.
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 364 2013-05-20 07:14:31 <roconnor> I never thought of the POW as a DoS prevention tool.
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 369 2013-05-20 07:21:11 <amiller> ok orphan blocks are indeed not relayed, but side chains are relayed as soon as they are connected and validated
 370 2013-05-20 07:21:36 <roconnor> good to know
 371 2013-05-20 07:23:45 <amiller> so in order to connect the dots, the remaining question is this: given that the network propagation depends on relay decisions, what kind of propagation is necessary and what relay decisions would attain that, if miners could set their work threshold wherever they wanted
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 373 2013-05-20 07:25:37 <amiller> oh yeah, the other (bigger?) problem is that if you decide which chain is longest only based on total expected work, then it's much easier for an attacker to get lucky and find 1 block that rewinds history a whole day, as opposed to having to find 24*6 blocks
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 380 2013-05-20 07:33:22 <sipa> amiller: blocks are only announced/relayed when they become part of the best known chain
 381 2013-05-20 07:33:53 <amiller> oh
 382 2013-05-20 07:33:57 <amiller> hm weird
 383 2013-05-20 07:34:43 <sipa> your assertion is correcr: thwy are relayed when connected and validated, but that only happens when they are in the (new) best chain
 384 2013-05-20 07:35:49 <amiller> i see yeah
 385 2013-05-20 07:36:54 * sipa saw a zooko today, btw
 386 2013-05-20 07:37:51 EmLeX has joined
 387 2013-05-20 07:38:05 * gmaxwell did not see an amiller today. :(
 388 2013-05-20 07:38:25 * sipa neither
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 390 2013-05-20 07:41:59 * Luke-Jr also did not see amiller
 391 2013-05-20 07:43:13 <roconnor> amiller, why is it easier to find 1 block for the whole day?
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 393 2013-05-20 07:45:35 <amiller> roconnor, well the variance for how long it takes to find a single block is much higher than for finding a longer sequence of them
 394 2013-05-20 07:45:50 <roconnor> hmm
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 398 2013-05-20 07:53:25 <roconnor> amiller, interestingly replacing a day's work with 1 block is a kinda nice output regarding chain size. :D
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 400 2013-05-20 08:05:50 <duSn> /6/6
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 409 2013-05-20 08:15:04 <gmaxwell> roconnor: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/alt_ideas
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 416 2013-05-20 08:28:22 <gmaxwell> petertodd: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2603  < this is the cause of your bug
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 419 2013-05-20 08:32:01 <jonass> hmm? wenn sending a getheaders message instead of a getblocks messages (same parameters) i should get a "headers" structure in replay (and not a "inv")?
 420 2013-05-20 08:32:04 <gmaxwell> sipa: See petertodd's comment on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2603 :(
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 475 2013-05-20 10:00:08 <MC1984> is there any way to unpass -debug in bitcoind without restarting it
 476 2013-05-20 10:00:12 <MC1984> its giving me a headache
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 478 2013-05-20 10:02:20 <coingenuity> MC1984: you can try debug=false in the command console i guess
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 480 2013-05-20 10:02:59 <MC1984> method not found :(
 481 2013-05-20 10:03:13 <coingenuity> oh well, worth a shot i guess
 482 2013-05-20 10:03:14 <coingenuity> heh
 483 2013-05-20 10:03:21 <MC1984> lol
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 493 2013-05-20 10:11:08 <wumpus> MC1984: no, that's not possible currently
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 508 2013-05-20 10:34:25 <jonass> to "send" a new transaction: is it okay to send a "inv" message with the new "tx" to all connected peers?
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 510 2013-05-20 10:35:38 <BlueMatt> an inv is only a hash of the tx which you notify peers you have
 511 2013-05-20 10:35:43 <BlueMatt> it doesnt actually contain the tx
 512 2013-05-20 10:41:44 <jonass> BlueMatt right,? will be loaded with getdate. But sending a inv to connected peers and be able to response the tx to getdata: is that enought to "add" a new tx?
 513 2013-05-20 10:42:13 wei_ has quit (Quit: wei_)
 514 2013-05-20 10:43:43 <BlueMatt> yes
 515 2013-05-20 10:43:50 <jonass> BlueMatt thanks!
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 561 2013-05-20 11:41:32 <jonass> how can multibit synchronise that fast with the network? Even when only loading blockheaders, how can Multibit find transactions to a wallet key without loading real blocks?
 562 2013-05-20 11:42:50 <jonass> what if you would have a very old wallet key (lets say from 2009). Would multibit then have to download the full bockchain (back to the date your private key was generated)?
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 574 2013-05-20 11:47:12 <MC1984> downloading the chain is easy
 575 2013-05-20 11:47:26 <MC1984> processing and verifying and storing it is hard
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 579 2013-05-20 11:47:51 <jonass> MC1984 but downloading would also need ~9GB traffic?!
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 585 2013-05-20 11:49:13 <MC1984> hmm i dont know, it has slipped my mind
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 587 2013-05-20 11:49:28 <MC1984> i think an SPV only downloads headers and looks at the utxo for your coins
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 593 2013-05-20 11:51:04 <jonass> MC1984 okay. I think i get it now. Multibit download headers befor the date your oldest private key was generated. After the generation, it downloads full bock (but not storing them).
 594 2013-05-20 11:51:36 <MC1984> how does it know how old your keys are
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 597 2013-05-20 11:52:46 <jonass> MC1984 don't know. :) When the key was generated within multibit, it can store the timestamp. But when importing, ? i really don't know. Is the generation-timestamp not a attribute of a private key in walled?
 598 2013-05-20 11:52:51 <jonass> walled=wallet
 599 2013-05-20 11:53:16 <MC1984> for an imported key
 600 2013-05-20 11:53:22 <MC1984> it would have to replay the entire chain
 601 2013-05-20 11:54:35 <jonass> MC1984 could be...
 602 2013-05-20 11:54:41 <MC1984> but bitcoinj uses checkpoints now too
 603 2013-05-20 11:55:15 <jonass> checkpoints?
 604 2013-05-20 11:55:38 <jonass> Multibit can only import multibit keys as well as blockchain.info keys (probably all timestamped)
 605 2013-05-20 11:56:38 <MC1984> oooo bitcoin wallet now has a block display
 606 2013-05-20 11:56:50 <jonass> nlock display?
 607 2013-05-20 11:56:56 <jonass> block display?
 608 2013-05-20 11:57:23 <MC1984> peer monitor is now network monitor
 609 2013-05-20 11:57:35 <MC1984> it shows block headers and timestamps
 610 2013-05-20 11:57:40 <MC1984> neat o
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 613 2013-05-20 11:58:48 <jonass> hmm? i wondering if sqlite could be a store for a SPV client (just for storing block headers and relevant tx's)
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 641 2013-05-20 12:22:19 <tonikt> Hi guys. I have a question about this signature - it comes from a real chain: 3045022034e4786cf22cd00b45faff8afc3b8789c924378176d934adee0d3b3f4a8bf0dc022100b658dd07beeede1f792d238c3ee29c25200f3b834662f9c900bb4d065526dac90001
 642 2013-05-20 12:22:39 Skav has joined
 643 2013-05-20 12:23:12 <tonikt> How do I parse it to get the hash type from a proper offset? Because I believe the one before the last byte (00) should be the hash type
 644 2013-05-20 12:23:20 <tonikt> But obviously it isn't
 645 2013-05-20 12:25:39 MobPhone has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 646 2013-05-20 12:26:48 <tonikt> What I see in script.cpp sort of contradicts itself
 647 2013-05-20 12:27:00 <tonikt> The comment says: A canonical signature exists of: <30> <total len> <02> <len R> <R> <02> <len S> <S> <hashtype>
 648 2013-05-20 12:27:13 <tonikt> But the code just does: unsigned char nHashType = vchSig[vchSig.size() - 1] & (~(SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY));
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 660 2013-05-20 13:02:31 <tonikt> Yeah, I thought so. ;)
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 671 2013-05-20 13:10:23 <sacrelege> hi all, is this a general bitcoin development channel or does it only discuss things concerning  bitcoind/qt ?
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 678 2013-05-20 13:17:32 <tonikt> sacarlson: either way; if you have a general question, it's probably just best to ask it here
 679 2013-05-20 13:18:23 Aurigae has joined
 680 2013-05-20 13:18:55 <Aurigae> hi, can anybody answer this question? http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/11036/how-much-do-nodes-get-from-blocks-including-fees
 681 2013-05-20 13:19:32 <sacarlson> tonikt: I think your message was ment for sacrelege
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 686 2013-05-20 13:19:57 <tonikt> sacarlson: indeed - sorry
 687 2013-05-20 13:20:06 <sacarlson> tonikt: no problem
 688 2013-05-20 13:20:44 <tonikt> sacrelege: my previous message was meant for you ;)
 689 2013-05-20 13:21:56 <tonikt> Aurigae: Nodes don't get anything from block. I think you meant miners..
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 721 2013-05-20 13:55:37 <ghash2> anyone experienced with stratum mining proxy here?
 722 2013-05-20 13:55:40 <ghash2> I'm getting a error 2013-05-20 15:24:58,429 ERROR protocol protocol.process_failure # [Failure instance: Traceback: <type 'exceptions.Exception'>: Extranonce slots are full, please disconnect some miners!
 723 2013-05-20 13:55:45 <ghash2> how to fix it apart from disconnecting my miner?
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 731 2013-05-20 14:04:41 <helo> someone flooding me? thousands of "ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : inputs already spent\n mapOrphan overflow, removed 1 tx"
 732 2013-05-20 14:06:18 <upb> hmm, orphan overflow suggest the need to construct more oprhanages
 733 2013-05-20 14:07:06 <MC1984> orphan overflow
 734 2013-05-20 14:07:13 <helo> heh
 735 2013-05-20 14:07:16 <MC1984> straight into the textile factories amirite
 736 2013-05-20 14:07:41 <MC1984> i got lots of that stuff too, i id mention it here
 737 2013-05-20 14:07:50 <helo> wtf peep
 738 2013-05-20 14:08:10 <MC1984> dont see why there should be so many input already spent since i installed the rc
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 741 2013-05-20 14:10:14 <helo> ]]--=]]=-[=[
 742 2013-05-20 14:10:15 <helo> :"=
 743 2013-05-20 14:10:18 <helo> ][==]\]]
 744 2013-05-20 14:10:21 <helo> \
 745 2013-05-20 14:10:29 <helo> doh, sorry :/
 746 2013-05-20 14:10:46 <helo> that was not a robot attack, everyone is still safe
 747 2013-05-20 14:11:53 tyn has joined
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 749 2013-05-20 14:13:44 <MC1984> jesus is the mempool really 3000 dep now
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 760 2013-05-20 14:19:08 <fanquake>  Is a ~15% filled sync bar at 155k blocks expected behaviour? Haven't watched the client syncing from 0 for quite a while.
 761 2013-05-20 14:19:19 cc_8 has joined
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 763 2013-05-20 14:19:49 <fanquake> Can remember that there was a change to how the progress bar worked.
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 765 2013-05-20 14:20:51 <helo> fanquake: that sounds about right, there have been multiple changes
 766 2013-05-20 14:21:17 <helo> now i think it is supposed to reflect how much actual time remains until synced
 767 2013-05-20 14:21:45 <MC1984> 226weeks
 768 2013-05-20 14:21:46 <MC1984> lol
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 772 2013-05-20 14:24:27 <helo> a flood of orphan txes i guess would happen if there was a fork, right?
 773 2013-05-20 14:25:08 <helo> an actively used fork :/
 774 2013-05-20 14:26:55 <MC1984> thre is no fork yet
 775 2013-05-20 14:27:28 <MC1984> there might be some vestige o the march trouble somewhere
 776 2013-05-20 14:28:07 <MC1984> what i dont understand is that im still getting these double spends after cycling my entire peer list a few times
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 778 2013-05-20 14:28:15 <MC1984> why is veryone relaying this stuff
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 786 2013-05-20 14:32:29 <helo> mapOrphan is used so that a reorg can be done without needing a bunch of data from peers?
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 788 2013-05-20 14:34:38 <MC1984> thats why orphans are stored
 789 2013-05-20 14:36:51 <helo> more than 10k legitimate orphan transactions without an actual fork seems unlikely
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 791 2013-05-20 14:37:37 <MC1984> is the limit 10k
 792 2013-05-20 14:37:41 <helo> so there is a fork, or these orphans are being crafted
 793 2013-05-20 14:38:03 <helo> yeah, i had some log entries saying mapOrphan size was 10001, and it was dropping one tx to make room
 794 2013-05-20 14:38:53 * helo wonders if gettransaction can fetch orphans too
 795 2013-05-20 14:39:05 <MC1984> you know if you wanted to fork the chain a good time to do it would be when most of the devs are at a confrence for the weekend
 796 2013-05-20 14:39:07 <MC1984> just sayin
 797 2013-05-20 14:40:14 <helo> (they apparently cannot)
 798 2013-05-20 14:40:30 <helo> that is, "getrawtransaction cannot fetch orphans"
 799 2013-05-20 14:40:37 <michagogo> MC1984: Fork the chain how?
 800 2013-05-20 14:40:49 <michagogo> (BTW, has a deathblock been found yet in the past week?)
 801 2013-05-20 14:40:54 bitit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 802 2013-05-20 14:41:00 <helo> michagogo: BFL's first five batches of asics ;)
 803 2013-05-20 14:41:04 <MC1984> i dont really think its forked
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 805 2013-05-20 14:41:13 <MC1984> too many people are in a position to notice
 806 2013-05-20 14:41:15 <michagogo> helo: hmm?
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 808 2013-05-20 14:41:46 <helo> michagogo: i'm pretending that BFL fabbed five batches of asics for the forker before actually shipping
 809 2013-05-20 14:41:57 <michagogo> oic
 810 2013-05-20 14:42:08 <michagogo> But that wouldn't be a fork, it'd be a 51% attack
 811 2013-05-20 14:42:24 <michagogo> I mean, it might result in a temporary fork
 812 2013-05-20 14:42:39 <michagogo> But one way or the other it would resolve itself shortly after the attack stopped
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 816 2013-05-20 14:46:30 * BlueMatt sees no interesting relays on his node
 817 2013-05-20 14:47:03 <BlueMatt> looks like you are seeing orphans because of just restarting your node?
 818 2013-05-20 14:47:10 <BlueMatt> well, I see a few, but not very often
 819 2013-05-20 14:47:28 <helo> i hadn't restarted in days when i saw the majority of mine
 820 2013-05-20 14:47:54 <fanquake> Is there anything obvious thats likely to cause further db corruption during a reindex?
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 822 2013-05-20 14:48:23 <MC1984> mine is after running for days too
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 824 2013-05-20 14:49:06 <fanquake> Which then leaves the db corrupted beyond repairing with another reindex.
 825 2013-05-20 14:49:11 <BlueMatt> hmm, well orphans definately arent relayed
 826 2013-05-20 14:49:32 <BlueMatt> so it must be either a bad peer or just mempool too large to store the txn itself
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 828 2013-05-20 14:49:55 <MC1984> mempool is pushing 3000
 829 2013-05-20 14:49:57 <BlueMatt> wait, no, Im not running memory-limited mempool, so no, its just some orphans that you dont have the base of
 830 2013-05-20 14:50:22 <MC1984> and i already said my peers are cycled a few times
 831 2013-05-20 14:50:48 <BlueMatt> ie you restarted your node?
 832 2013-05-20 14:51:04 <MC1984> yes a few times
 833 2013-05-20 14:51:11 <BlueMatt> well no wonder you see orphans...
 834 2013-05-20 14:51:25 <helo> but we saw the majority of them before restarting
 835 2013-05-20 14:51:33 <MC1984> ^
 836 2013-05-20 14:51:38 <BlueMatt> ok, so they may have been from one node that was relaying them
 837 2013-05-20 14:51:52 <BlueMatt> either because they were in their wallet or because they want to
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 839 2013-05-20 14:52:58 <MC1984> why would a nod choose to relay bad tx and why would i keep connecting to it
 840 2013-05-20 14:53:10 <BlueMatt> you arent...
 841 2013-05-20 14:53:20 <BlueMatt> after you restart it is expected that many txn you get are orphans
 842 2013-05-20 14:53:25 <BlueMatt> because your mempool is empty
 843 2013-05-20 14:53:53 <BlueMatt> before that, dunno...most likely they didnt understand what they were doing and coded some shitty bitcoin app
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 845 2013-05-20 14:54:36 <MC1984> all i know is, i rarely saw it before trying the rc
 846 2013-05-20 14:54:46 <MC1984> i dont know if thats significant
 847 2013-05-20 14:55:55 <MC1984> mayb its something thats always happened and just started to be outputted in the log
 848 2013-05-20 14:56:03 <BlueMatt> could be a new service or 3 that is relaying tx which depend on unconfirmed txn...
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 851 2013-05-20 15:00:58 <BlueMatt> ahhh
 852 2013-05-20 15:01:09 <BlueMatt> it may very  well be the new IsStandard dust checks
 853 2013-05-20 15:01:18 <helo> ding!
 854 2013-05-20 15:01:20 <BlueMatt> if a tx depends on a dust tx it will be orphan
 855 2013-05-20 15:01:47 <BlueMatt> or non-canonical signatures, or...whatever
 856 2013-05-20 15:01:49 <MC1984> ahhhhh
 857 2013-05-20 15:01:55 <BlueMatt> like 2013-05-20 14:38:03 ERROR: Non-canonical signature: R value excessively padded
 858 2013-05-20 15:01:58 <MC1984> makes sense
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 860 2013-05-20 15:02:07 <helo> thanks matt :)
 861 2013-05-20 15:02:10 <BlueMatt> :)
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 863 2013-05-20 15:02:30 <MC1984> lots of naughty people sending tx with unconfirmed coins
 864 2013-05-20 15:02:38 <MC1984> gonna get a nasty suprise
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 866 2013-05-20 15:05:10 <helo> bcinfo doesn't seem to know about them, at least
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 877 2013-05-20 15:19:21 <lolcookie> 1
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 880 2013-05-20 15:20:11 <helo>      2
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 885 2013-05-20 15:24:54 <helo> apologies
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 999 2013-05-20 17:55:31 <buZz> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=emDJTGTrEm0
1000 2013-05-20 17:55:35 <buZz> pretty cool video
1001 2013-05-20 17:55:42 <buZz> no idea if its true :)
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1014 2013-05-20 18:06:28 <midnightmagic> 2013-05-20 17:42:58 ERROR: Non-canonical signature: R value negative    <-- huh?
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1017 2013-05-20 18:09:09 * roconnor hopes that is the DER thing
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1022 2013-05-20 18:13:07 <midnightmagic> roconnor: What DER thing?
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1028 2013-05-20 18:15:19 <roconnor> midnightmagic, last night I was told that they are working on fixing the problem were openSSL violates the DER standard by allowing negative numbers in signatures.
1029 2013-05-20 18:16:04 <midnightmagic> roconnor: my error message is from a mainnet-connected 0.8.2rc1 hybrid.
1030 2013-05-20 18:16:54 <roconnor> http://r6.ca/blog/20111119T211504Z.html
1031 2013-05-20 18:17:05 <roconnor> sorry I mischaracterised the problem a little
1032 2013-05-20 18:17:32 <roconnor> Openssl decodes numbers as unsigned when they are supposed to be signed
1033 2013-05-20 18:17:50 <roconnor> OTOH, all properly encoded signatures are supposed to be positive.
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1037 2013-05-20 18:18:49 <midnightmagic> roconnor: Thank you for the link. I can't say I'm surprised. :-/
1038 2013-05-20 18:18:55 <roconnor> okay, I'm starting to remember the issue.
1039 2013-05-20 18:19:06 <roconnor> some clients don't put a leading 0 bit on their signatures
1040 2013-05-20 18:19:25 <roconnor> and openssl validates this as okay, even though it is a violation of the DER standard
1041 2013-05-20 18:19:29 <buZz> does anyone know the price for a XC6SLX150 chip?
1042 2013-05-20 18:19:38 <buZz> just the chip .. looking into making some fpga boards
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1044 2013-05-20 18:20:01 <roconnor> midnightmagic, anyhow; I don't know if this is related to your error message, but it seems plausible.
1045 2013-05-20 18:20:41 <midnightmagic> roconnor: It would be interesting if someone managed to find some way to screw with it.
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1047 2013-05-20 18:20:50 <buZz> ah, just found some for 100 usd, ty
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1049 2013-05-20 18:21:10 <roconnor> midnightmagic, it is not obviously a security problem; however I get nervous when different actors are interpreting the same data in different ways.
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1056 2013-05-20 18:27:50 <gmaxwell> 00:51 < gmaxwell> roconnor: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/alt_ideas
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1058 2013-05-20 18:28:19 <roconnor> w00t
1059 2013-05-20 18:28:35 <gmaxwell> roconnor: it's actually a mild security problem for some things, because the malleablity allows you to 'double spend' other people's transactions.. and there are some obnoxious things this causes for people who do anything at all with unconfirmed transactions.
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1061 2013-05-20 18:29:44 <roconnor> gmaxwell, how can you use this to double spend other people's transactions?
1062 2013-05-20 18:29:51 <roconnor> or is that a secret?
1063 2013-05-20 18:30:59 <gwillen> roconnor: I presume not 'double spend' in the sense of redirect their coins elsewhere, but in the sense of produce a second valid transaction, with the same inputs/outputs, with different bits
1064 2013-05-20 18:31:12 <gmaxwell> I mutate your transaction, I get a distinctive txid that also spends the same coins ... the new transaction does the same thing, but the fact that it has a different txid breaks things for some people. (I'll also tell you in private an example of stuff that catches fire, not that its secret but I don't want to encourage people to do it)
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1069 2013-05-20 18:39:28 <richcollins> Can you send a transaction with an input that isn't yet confirmed?
1070 2013-05-20 18:39:53 <MC1984> yes but its not a good idea
1071 2013-05-20 18:40:06 <richcollins> MC1984: I trust the input address
1072 2013-05-20 18:40:11 <MC1984> can create hilarious chains of suckage
1073 2013-05-20 18:40:27 <richcollins> MC1984: What does that mean
1074 2013-05-20 18:40:28 <SteveDekorte> MC1984: will both txs in that case be considered valid if they are put in the same block?
1075 2013-05-20 18:40:29 <sipa> it can break chains of unconfirmed transactions spending eachother
1076 2013-05-20 18:40:35 <MC1984> if you trust the input then go ahead, bitcoind wont let you do it normally though
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1078 2013-05-20 18:40:40 <sipa> oh, hadn't read backlog entirely
1079 2013-05-20 18:40:50 <richcollins> MC1984: I
1080 2013-05-20 18:40:54 <richcollins> m not using bitcoind
1081 2013-05-20 18:41:00 <sipa> midnightmagic: indeed, roconnor is right
1082 2013-05-20 18:41:17 <MC1984> SteveDekorte i dont know
1083 2013-05-20 18:41:43 <sipa> midnightmagic: http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.bitcoin.devel/1973
1084 2013-05-20 18:41:47 <richcollins> How do confirmations work in this case?
1085 2013-05-20 18:42:08 <richcollins> If the transaction involving the input has 1 confirmation
1086 2013-05-20 18:42:34 <SteveDekorte> MC1984: If so, I'd be concerned it would be too easy to spam the network with non-duct txs
1087 2013-05-20 18:42:49 <SteveDekorte> *dust
1088 2013-05-20 18:42:55 <richcollins> then my transaction can be included in a block
1089 2013-05-20 18:42:57 <richcollins> ?
1090 2013-05-20 18:43:16 <gmaxwell> once the memorypool reworking happens I imagine that we'll limit the amount of unconfirmed depth we'll allow.
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1092 2013-05-20 18:43:44 <richcollins> To make this clearer … I see an unconfirmed tx from A and immediately send to B
1093 2013-05-20 18:43:50 <richcollins> The tx from A gets 1 confirmation
1094 2013-05-20 18:43:59 <richcollins> so then the tx to B can be confirmed
1095 2013-05-20 18:44:12 <sipa> they can both be confirmed in the same block
1096 2013-05-20 18:44:18 <richcollins> ah ok
1097 2013-05-20 18:45:11 <richcollins> So this will speed up confirmations from my perspective If I'm only concerned about confirmations involving tx to B
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1099 2013-05-20 18:45:47 <richcollins> I'm basically receiving from a 3rd party and then immediately sending to an exchange for liquidation
1100 2013-05-20 18:46:03 <richcollins> So I consider the entire tx complete once the exchange sees 6 confirmations
1101 2013-05-20 18:46:15 <richcollins> so there is no reason for me to wait for any confirmations before sending to exchange
1102 2013-05-20 18:47:44 <MC1984> well sipa indicates that you can chain as many in the same block as you like
1103 2013-05-20 18:47:48 <MC1984> but it reuires trust
1104 2013-05-20 18:48:25 <sipa> there's no problem chaining a spending tx, and only consider the origin confirmed when the spender gets confirmed
1105 2013-05-20 18:48:27 <MC1984> the default policy of waiting 6 confs between each coin melt is probably mostly to protect people from themselves
1106 2013-05-20 18:48:30 <sipa> and you can broadcast both at once
1107 2013-05-20 18:48:34 <richcollins> Right but I don't have to trust A
1108 2013-05-20 18:48:52 <richcollins> Since the exchange will wait for 6 confirmations before I can trade
1109 2013-05-20 18:49:01 <richcollins> So I might as well immediately forward to exchange without waiting
1110 2013-05-20 18:49:17 <richcollins> Since I have to wait for exchange confirmations anyway
1111 2013-05-20 18:49:18 <richcollins> right/
1112 2013-05-20 18:49:19 <richcollins> ?
1113 2013-05-20 18:50:13 <sipa> yes
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1117 2013-05-20 18:54:14 <Aurigae> hey guys, i did a nmap pentest on a bitcoin node and got this shell (on the nmap scan, lol) http://oi44.tinypic.com/bdvfab.jpg  wtf is that
1118 2013-05-20 18:54:21 zer0def has quit (Quit: Quit:)
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1121 2013-05-20 18:56:34 <Aurigae> scan was -Pn --min-hostgroup 96 -sV -sX -T4 -A -v -n
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1123 2013-05-20 18:56:55 <buZz> p2p port?
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1127 2013-05-20 18:57:14 <sipa> looks like a binary dump of some protocol bytes
1128 2013-05-20 18:57:41 <gmaxwell> Aurigae: automatic defense, the node expoloited your nmap and is now erasing your disk.
1129 2013-05-20 18:57:44 <gmaxwell> (not really)
1130 2013-05-20 18:57:50 <buZz> yeah its not a shell, just looks like you connected to the p2p port with telnet ..
1131 2013-05-20 18:58:07 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, heh
1132 2013-05-20 18:58:51 <phantomcircuit> Aurigae, looks like one of the scripts in -A is broken
1133 2013-05-20 18:58:52 <MC1984> you got backtraced by bitcoin
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1136 2013-05-20 18:59:32 <sipa> bitcoind is now orphaning your kids
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1142 2013-05-20 19:06:14 <roconnor> sipa, in your link to the bitcoin-dev mailing list you gave you list a bunch of rules for DER encodings of signatures
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1144 2013-05-20 19:06:28 <roconnor> sipa, you are missing the rule that LenR and LenS must be non-zero.
1145 2013-05-20 19:06:34 <roconnor> sipa, does your code have this check?
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1148 2013-05-20 19:09:36 <roconnor> sipa, oops I have to go now.  You can leave me a response via lambdabot
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1150 2013-05-20 19:10:49 <gmaxwell> I assume lambdabot is something in some haskell channel?  In any case, someone should point roconnor to https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script.cpp#L245
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1153 2013-05-20 19:11:51 <sipa> gmaxwell: will do
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1155 2013-05-20 19:12:51 <sipa> actually, that check is not necessary even
1156 2013-05-20 19:13:07 <sipa> as ECDSA verification rules state that the signature is invalid if R or S are 0
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1162 2013-05-20 19:13:50 <mischief> what's required to build a verification/sender only client ?
1163 2013-05-20 19:13:54 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: looks like the lock is early enough that a restart race couldn't be the source of leveldb corruption... though it's probably worth investigating the lock _release_ behavior.
1164 2013-05-20 19:14:41 <sipa> it's released after calling DBFlush()
1165 2013-05-20 19:14:46 <sipa> and StopNode()
1166 2013-05-20 19:15:03 <sipa> mischief: which? sender or verification?
1167 2013-05-20 19:15:24 <mischief> isn't both required for SPV?
1168 2013-05-20 19:15:46 <sipa> SPV doesn't do verification (except proof-of-work check on headers)
1169 2013-05-20 19:16:23 <mischief> how does spv client know what his balance is if he only gets the headers
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1171 2013-05-20 19:16:37 <mischief> how does he know which blocks have his transactions?
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1173 2013-05-20 19:17:10 <sipa> SPV downloads full blocks (or since recently, server-side filtered blocks, see BIP37), but only validates the block headers
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1175 2013-05-20 19:17:40 <sipa> it does not check in particular: 1) transactions signatures  2) double spends  3) inflation rules
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1177 2013-05-20 19:18:09 <mischief> so e.g. android wallet does download all blocks but throws them away?
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1179 2013-05-20 19:18:33 <sipa> before bloom filtering, yes
1180 2013-05-20 19:18:44 <sipa> now it just requests filterede blocks with only the transactions it cares about
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1209 2013-05-20 19:37:06 <SteveDekorte> if sha* wasn't available, any opinions on what would be the next best choice for a POW?
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1216 2013-05-20 19:38:43 <midnightmagic> SteveDekorte: Is SHA3 off the table?
1217 2013-05-20 19:39:37 <gmaxwell> Any modern cryptographic hash function. There are many others than the sha* family.
1218 2013-05-20 19:39:43 <phantomcircuit> getting real tired of ResendWalletTransactions
1219 2013-05-20 19:40:05 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, or even some combination of more than one family
1220 2013-05-20 19:40:12 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: that makes you an excellent candidate for fixing it (or at least profiling and writing up exactly whats wrong) :P
1221 2013-05-20 19:40:15 <phantomcircuit> but that might be a lot of bytes
1222 2013-05-20 19:40:34 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, im pretty sure i know what's wrng with it already
1223 2013-05-20 19:40:44 <phantomcircuit> it's only slow when there are actually transactions that are unconfirmed
1224 2013-05-20 19:41:14 <gmaxwell> yea, you're hitting the exponentialish behavior in the IsConfirmed stuff that checks that all IsMine parents are confirmed.
1225 2013-05-20 19:41:29 <phantomcircuit> yup
1226 2013-05-20 19:41:55 <phantomcircuit> this is a memory constrained system
1227 2013-05-20 19:41:56 <gmaxwell> The 'trivial' way to fix it is with dynamic programming. Cache the results, and flush the cache on every new block (or even at the top level of that search). ... or just disable that behavior.
1228 2013-05-20 19:42:32 <phantomcircuit> it seems like that exponential behaviour isn't an issue on systems with enough memory to fit the normal bitcoind stuff and the wallet
1229 2013-05-20 19:42:38 <phantomcircuit> but im seeing a bunch of disk activity
1230 2013-05-20 19:42:45 <phantomcircuit> and little cpu activity
1231 2013-05-20 19:42:50 gfawkes has quit (Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~)
1232 2013-05-20 19:42:51 <sipa> if we could make sure that transaction's hashBlock values are only set for actually confirmed transactions (set it on connect, remove it on disconnect), it would be trivially O(n)
1233 2013-05-20 19:43:18 <ezdiy> phantomcircuit: every time blockchain db does not fit in your page cache you're gonna have bad time
1234 2013-05-20 19:43:34 <ezdiy> gmaxwell is right, bitcoind shall cache on its own (and be smart about invalidating too)
1235 2013-05-20 19:43:38 <phantomcircuit> i should probably just bite the bullet and buy a much more powerful machine
1236 2013-05-20 19:43:43 shurnormal has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1237 2013-05-20 19:43:53 <sipa> this is pure wallet operation
1238 2013-05-20 19:44:04 <sipa> there is no blockchain activity at all involved (iirc)
1239 2013-05-20 19:44:38 <phantomcircuit> sipa, right the problem is the wallet evicting blockchain memory to swap
1240 2013-05-20 19:44:40 <ezdiy> sipa: it has the local utxo set loaded at all times?
1241 2013-05-20 19:44:44 <gmaxwell> sipa: only that the blockchain activity toggles the isconfirmed state of transactions.
1242 2013-05-20 19:45:03 <sipa> ezdiy: no, but the UTXO set is not involved
1243 2013-05-20 19:45:06 sacrelege has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1244 2013-05-20 19:45:26 <sipa> ezdiy: (and it shouldn't be, wallets can work without a fully validating node)
1245 2013-05-20 19:46:21 <ezdiy> This routine looks to see if there has been a new block since last time ... i think it loads stuff from that block?
1246 2013-05-20 19:46:26 <ezdiy> (in case there is one)
1247 2013-05-20 19:46:39 <gmaxwell> sipa: What happens is that for every unconfirmed transaction it traverses their inputs, and their unconfirmed inputs ... and so on recursively. to verify that all unconfirmed transactions in their history are self made.
1248 2013-05-20 19:46:49 <sipa> gmaxwell: i know that
1249 2013-05-20 19:47:05 <ezdiy> ugh
1250 2013-05-20 19:47:11 <ezdiy> gmaxwell: and it does that *every* new block?
1251 2013-05-20 19:47:19 <sipa> ezdiy: no, at startup
1252 2013-05-20 19:47:20 <gmaxwell> Personally I don't consider it a problem. It mostly slows down people trying to do unconfirmed txn flooding attacks... once you get to 30 deep it's taking 60 seconds per new transaction or something. :P
1253 2013-05-20 19:47:37 <gmaxwell> ezdiy: has nothing to do with blocks
1254 2013-05-20 19:47:55 <gmaxwell> ezdiy: it does it when creating transactions and (apparently) when resending them.
1255 2013-05-20 19:47:58 <sipa> i'm just saying that if we can guarantee the invariant that wallettx's hashBlock value is only set for transaction actually in the currently connected chain, there is no need for recursion
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1258 2013-05-20 19:48:14 <ezdiy> gmaxwell: i see
1259 2013-05-20 19:48:18 <sipa> and that is trivial to do
1260 2013-05-20 19:48:32 <sipa> except for people swapping wallets
1261 2013-05-20 19:48:48 <gmaxwell> sipa: it means that if a txn falls out of the chain you have to walk its children, no?
1262 2013-05-20 19:49:09 <sipa> gmaxwell: if a transaction falls out of the chain, its children will have fallen out of it already
1263 2013-05-20 19:49:37 <sipa> (or fall out of it simultaneously)
1264 2013-05-20 19:49:46 <shesek> when is the release that forbids small outputs scheduled?
1265 2013-05-20 19:49:55 <sipa> shesek: when it's ready (but probably quite soon)
1266 2013-05-20 19:50:26 <sipa> (and forbidding is perhaps too strong a word for 'does not relay by default')
1267 2013-05-20 19:50:44 <ezdiy> "network ban" vs "blockchain ban"
1268 2013-05-20 19:52:20 <shesek> well, de-facto, when most of the network updates to that version and if they keep the defaults, it'll be forbidden
1269 2013-05-20 19:52:22 <kapiteined> Time since last block: 53 minutes and 38 seconds <- just normal deviation i hope ?
1270 2013-05-20 19:52:52 <gmaxwell> shesek: no, even thats not quite. They can still be mined.
1271 2013-05-20 19:53:07 <gmaxwell> kapiteined: yes, happens regularly, it's expected.
1272 2013-05-20 19:53:15 <kapiteined> ok
1273 2013-05-20 19:53:24 owowo has quit (Quit: sayonara)
1274 2013-05-20 19:53:29 <sipa> ;;tblb 3218
1275 2013-05-20 19:53:30 <gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 53 minutes and 38 seconds to generate is 1 day, 14 hours, 57 minutes, and 11 seconds
1276 2013-05-20 19:53:36 gfawkes has joined
1277 2013-05-20 19:54:46 <sipa> https://revue.vtk.be/intern/upload/?/it/wiki/core/local/revuetex/r2010
1278 2013-05-20 19:55:16 <phantomcircuit> sipa, http auth
1279 2013-05-20 19:55:29 <sipa> oops
1280 2013-05-20 19:55:36 <sipa> wrong window!
1281 2013-05-20 19:57:02 <phantomcircuit> well for now i've just upped the resend interval to 30 to 60 minutes instead of 0 to 30
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1293 2013-05-20 20:10:35 <wallet43> does a tx has a "timeout"
1294 2013-05-20 20:10:48 <wallet43> meaning if it doesnt get confirmed within a week or so
1295 2013-05-20 20:11:14 <michagogo> wallet43: Eventually it'll be forgotten, yeah
1296 2013-05-20 20:11:17 <helo> wallet43: nope. it's possible that its inputs could be spent
1297 2013-05-20 20:11:27 <helo> i guess dpeending on what you mean by "timeout" :)
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1299 2013-05-20 20:12:01 <wallet43> michagogo: how come itll be forgotten?
1300 2013-05-20 20:12:04 <helo> but a transaction that is valid today should be just as valid a year from now
1301 2013-05-20 20:12:18 <wallet43> does my client has to resend the tx after every block?
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1306 2013-05-20 20:13:13 <helo> not strictly
1307 2013-05-20 20:13:41 <helo> a tx will stick around in the memory of nodes until they are reset usually
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1310 2013-05-20 20:14:09 <helo> if you wait so long that most nodes have rebooted and forgotten the tx, then it will help
1311 2013-05-20 20:14:32 <helo> otherwise, i don't think it will do anything. i don't think nodes will even resend if they receive a tx that is already in their mempool
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1313 2013-05-20 20:15:55 <michagogo> A tx in the pool is a -22
1314 2013-05-20 20:18:00 <phantomcircuit> sipa, huh
1315 2013-05-20 20:18:10 <phantomcircuit> so there's a transaction in this wallet
1316 2013-05-20 20:18:26 <phantomcircuit> which is neither in the mempool or the blockchain
1317 2013-05-20 20:18:31 <phantomcircuit> i assume that means it's double spent?
1318 2013-05-20 20:18:42 zooko has joined
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1320 2013-05-20 20:21:01 <phantomcircuit> lol it is
1321 2013-05-20 20:21:20 <phantomcircuit> 0.000496 BTC is holding everything up
1322 2013-05-20 20:21:49 <helo> let me guess... it was restored from a backup?
1323 2013-05-20 20:21:59 <phantomcircuit> no
1324 2013-05-20 20:22:12 <phantomcircuit> this is one of the intersango hot wallets
1325 2013-05-20 20:22:14 <helo> darn... that's most of the double spends i've seen
1326 2013-05-20 20:22:45 <phantomcircuit> im guessing it's a tiny transaction which was received but never mined
1327 2013-05-20 20:22:52 o3u has joined
1328 2013-05-20 20:22:52 <phantomcircuit> and somehow forgotten about
1329 2013-05-20 20:23:09 <phantomcircuit> or maybe someone was actually trying to double spend that small an amount
1330 2013-05-20 20:23:12 <phantomcircuit> but i doubt it
1331 2013-05-20 20:23:20 <phantomcircuit> either way it's just annoying
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1352 2013-05-20 20:43:12 <donpdonp> is it possible to delete an 'account' through the json-api? im not seeing anything that looks applicable
1353 2013-05-20 20:43:18 <donpdonp> (an account with 0btc)
1354 2013-05-20 20:43:57 <andytoshi> hey all, i've been seeing a lot of theoretical stuff go by on the mailing list for the last few months
1355 2013-05-20 20:44:16 <andytoshi> but i've been too busy to dedicate the time to studying and understanding it all
1356 2013-05-20 20:44:35 <andytoshi> is anyone working on making these crazy crypto ideas accessible? are there textbooks on this?
1357 2013-05-20 20:44:46 <sipa> which?
1358 2013-05-20 20:45:23 <andytoshi> things like "blind symmetric commitment for stronger byzantine voting resilience"
1359 2013-05-20 20:45:31 <andytoshi> "reward for making probabalistic double-spending via conflicting transactions easy"
1360 2013-05-20 20:45:37 SirDefaced has joined
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1364 2013-05-20 20:47:42 <andytoshi> i'd like to know about, e.g., blind signatures, but i'm not sure where to look except wikipedia
1365 2013-05-20 20:47:46 <andytoshi> which is not nearly in-depth enough
1366 2013-05-20 20:48:21 <wallet43> ;;tblb 1
1367 2013-05-20 20:48:21 <gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 1 second to generate is 9 minutes and 54 seconds
1368 2013-05-20 20:48:35 <michagogo> wallet43: That command is broken for small numbers
1369 2013-05-20 20:48:42 <wallet43> ;;tblb 1000
1370 2013-05-20 20:48:43 <gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 16 minutes and 40 seconds to generate is 53 minutes and 20 seconds
1371 2013-05-20 20:48:59 <wallet43> ;;tblb 10000
1372 2013-05-20 20:48:59 <gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 2 hours, 46 minutes, and 40 seconds to generate is 391 years, 22 weeks, 0 days, 20 hours, 3 minutes, and 41 seconds
1373 2013-05-20 20:49:06 <michagogo> lol
1374 2013-05-20 20:49:24 <wallet43> 391 yeahs? oh well
1375 2013-05-20 20:49:57 <wallet43> ;;help tblb
1376 2013-05-20 20:49:58 <gribble> (tblb <interval>) -- Calculate the expected time between blocks which take at least <interval> seconds to create. To provide the <interval> argument, a nested 'seconds' command may be helpful.
1377 2013-05-20 20:50:18 <mischief> andytoshi: someone suggested a book called 'applied cryptography' the other day :)
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1388 2013-05-20 21:08:31 <tlrobinson> is there a way to limit the amount of memory used by bitcoind (on linux)?
1389 2013-05-20 21:09:37 <sipa> not really limit, but limiting the number of network connections helps in 0.8.1
1390 2013-05-20 21:09:46 zooko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1391 2013-05-20 21:09:46 <sipa> 0.8.2 has some fixes that reduce memory usage significatly
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1398 2013-05-20 21:28:06 <tlrobinson> if i want to snapshot the blockchain to quickly start new bitcoind instances, do I just need the "blocks" directory, or other files too?
1399 2013-05-20 21:28:33 <sipa> you mostly need chainstate/
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1401 2013-05-20 21:28:45 <sipa> well, depends what you mean by snapshot
1402 2013-05-20 21:28:55 zooko has left ("#tahoe-lafs the open source, secure, decentralized storage system")
1403 2013-05-20 21:29:11 <sipa> blocks/ is just the block chain, but will require a reindex if you want to start with just that
1404 2013-05-20 21:29:29 <tlrobinson> sipa: ok so blocks and chainstate?
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1408 2013-05-20 21:30:30 <sipa> yeah
1409 2013-05-20 21:30:40 <sipa> make sure that chainstate is not newer than blocks
1410 2013-05-20 21:30:46 <sipa> blocks can be newer than chainstate
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1412 2013-05-20 21:31:50 <bonks> Anyone know if there's a native base58check in .NET or a library available via nuget? I can't find anything in bouncycastle, not that it would be there.
1413 2013-05-20 21:32:20 <jouke> Does someone by chance know a list of non standard transactions that are in the blockchain?
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1423 2013-05-20 21:40:23 <Edward_Black> Would someone please remind me, how much of coinbase is still "sorta free" now that extranonce is being put there ?
1424 2013-05-20 21:41:13 <Edward_Black> (in bytes, I mean)
1425 2013-05-20 21:41:35 <sipa> 96
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1429 2013-05-20 21:46:29 <Edward_Black> sipa, that number accounts for space taken up by extranonce , right ?
1430 2013-05-20 21:47:10 <sipa> extranonce doesn't really exist
1431 2013-05-20 21:47:32 <sipa> you have the scriptSig of the coinbase transaction, which is required by traditional rules to be between 2 and 10 bytes or arbitrary data
1432 2013-05-20 21:47:46 <sipa> bip34 requires it to start with a push of the block height
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1435 2013-05-20 21:47:55 <sipa> which is 4 bytes, iirc
1436 2013-05-20 21:48:03 <gmaxwell> :( valgrind isn't seeing that verifymessage leak that we have the pull for right now.
1437 2013-05-20 21:48:15 <sipa> gmaxwell: i don't know how you'd trigger it
1438 2013-05-20 21:48:26 <sipa> it requires a signature that somehow can't be recovered
1439 2013-05-20 21:48:51 <sipa> Edward_Black: between 2 and 100 bytes
1440 2013-05-20 21:49:20 <gmaxwell> sipa: ... oh, I suppose I should have actually read the fix before trying to test the bug.
1441 2013-05-20 21:49:53 <gmaxwell> (mostly I wanted to confirm that I would have found it if I'd changed my testing procedure... seems not!)
1442 2013-05-20 21:50:15 <Edward_Black> hm, so extranonce is something largely ephemeral, and the maximum coinbase size is 100 bytes
1443 2013-05-20 21:50:17 <Edward_Black> Thanks
1444 2013-05-20 21:50:30 <sipa> Edward_Black: extranonce is a client-side thing
1445 2013-05-20 21:50:40 <sipa> it's how you use those 96 free bytes, really
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1453 2013-05-20 22:01:33 <amiller> has anything changed recently in terms of how addresses are returned
1454 2013-05-20 22:01:59 Guest50403 is now known as beethoven8201
1455 2013-05-20 22:02:02 <amiller> trying to crawl a big list of nodes, and they used to return large blocks of 50-100 addresses, but now only 10-50 and fewer duplicates
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1458 2013-05-20 22:05:09 <Nekkros> Can anyone tell me if human intervention is required to increase the difficulty of blocks...or is it encoded into the bitcoin clients themselves to do so?
1459 2013-05-20 22:05:42 <michagogo> Nekkros: It's automatically recalculated every 2016 blocks
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1485 2013-05-20 22:35:25 <pitufo> Hello, I like to ask how exactly the block is formed in bitcoin. I mean @ begging if there where no trades? How u mine the blocks, aslo if they are all mined, how exactly the new transactions will go on?
1486 2013-05-20 22:36:02 <nimdAHK> pitufo: that's a lot of questions
1487 2013-05-20 22:36:10 <nimdAHK> more suited for a forum thread
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1489 2013-05-20 22:36:37 <sipa> pitufo: explaining all that will ikely take a few hours
1490 2013-05-20 22:36:43 <gmaxwell> pitufo: there isn't an "all mined" the blocks go on forever.
1491 2013-05-20 22:36:49 <gmaxwell> (at least that part was easily explained!)
1492 2013-05-20 22:38:31 <pitufo> well there will be rewards only in the first n amount of blocks, I understand that this will take over 100 years to hit that, but @ the end the block wil give so little that will be near 0. at least that what I understood from the wiki
1493 2013-05-20 22:39:16 <sipa> pitufo: there will always be blocks, on average one every 10 minutes
1494 2013-05-20 22:39:22 <gmaxwell> Yes, and? the subsidy is really a seperate matter.
1495 2013-05-20 22:39:30 <sipa> every 4 years, the reward halves and ultimately becomes zero
1496 2013-05-20 22:39:42 <sipa> but that doesn't prevent blocks from being mined or transactions from being included in it
1497 2013-05-20 22:39:54 <gmaxwell> Blocks exist to achieve consensus.  The introduction of the initial bitcoin happens at the same time, since it was an easy and well aligned way to do it— but it's otherwise unrelated.
1498 2013-05-20 22:40:03 <sipa> as for economic incentive to do so, transactions can contain transaction fees that goes to the miner that confirms them
1499 2013-05-20 22:40:19 <sipa> at some point, transaction fees are expected to take over the function of the subsidy
1500 2013-05-20 22:43:00 <pitufo> ok thanks. that makes sence.
1501 2013-05-20 22:44:08 <pitufo> and now a new question: is there a fixed number of transactions per block or it varies?
1502 2013-05-20 22:44:22 <jouke> To get the benificiary of a transaction, I am running the txo script without any inputs up until op_checksig. I consider the top of the stack as the benificiary. Does this make sense?
1503 2013-05-20 22:45:11 <gmaxwell> jouke: you're not telling us what you're trying to accomplish, so I can't really answer. _generally_ you should consider the _whole_ script as the 'benificiary'.
1504 2013-05-20 22:47:09 <jouke> gmaxwell: yes, but in most cases you can bring that whole script back to a publickey
1505 2013-05-20 22:48:17 <sipa> jouke: it's up to the receiver to decide what he considers a payment to him, you can't generally establish that from just looking at the script
1506 2013-05-20 22:48:18 <jouke> And instead of making a couple of templates to do so, I was thinking of doing that by running the script as I said
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1510 2013-05-20 22:50:51 <sipa> jouke: you can't run the script without having an input spending it
1511 2013-05-20 22:52:30 <jouke> Why not? op_dup, does nothing, op_hash does nothing, pushxbytes to stack makes the stack fill with the pubkey, at op_checksig I stop and see what's at the top of the stack.
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1513 2013-05-20 22:52:58 <sipa> you're trying to do more than what the receiver of the transaction does
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1515 2013-05-20 22:53:09 <Goonie_> ah, core devs are back. How was the conference?
1516 2013-05-20 22:53:33 <sipa> jouke: yes, you *can*, but i don't see why
1517 2013-05-20 22:54:36 <jouke> As a general way to fetch a pubkey from a script.
1518 2013-05-20 22:54:56 <sipa> why do you want that?
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1520 2013-05-20 22:54:58 <Luke-Jr> Goonie_: good
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1522 2013-05-20 22:55:31 <Luke-Jr> jouke: scriptPubKeys almost never actually contain pubkeys
1523 2013-05-20 22:55:42 <Goonie_> what was hacked at the hackathon?
1524 2013-05-20 22:56:00 <Luke-Jr> Goonie_: dunno, didn't figure out what was going on over there
1525 2013-05-20 22:56:05 <tlrobinson_> do i understand correctly, you don't have to trust the source of a bootstrap.dat because the software will validate the entire chain as it imports it, but you would have to trust a dump of blocks/chainstate is valid?
1526 2013-05-20 22:56:15 <Luke-Jr> tlrobinson_: correct
1527 2013-05-20 22:56:25 <Luke-Jr> tlrobinson_: so long as your node syncs afterward
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1531 2013-05-20 22:59:09 <jouke> sipa: so I can map transactions to a pubkey
1532 2013-05-20 22:59:39 <Luke-Jr> jouke: you can't
1533 2013-05-20 23:00:16 <jouke> or pubkeyhash
1534 2013-05-20 23:00:41 <Luke-Jr> that only works for old addresses (starting with 1…)
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1536 2013-05-20 23:01:17 <gmaxwell> A scriptpubkey _is_ a public key.  It's a public key for an asymetric crypto algorithim called 'bitcoin script' that (optionally!) includes an inner public key crypto algorithim (ECDSA).
1537 2013-05-20 23:02:04 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I guess technically…
1538 2013-05-20 23:02:18 <gwillen> jouke: what do you expect your script to do if it sees a multisig transaction, or something even weirder?
1539 2013-05-20 23:02:32 <gwillen> jouke: if you use a template-based approach, you can at least fail cleanly on unexpected cases
1540 2013-05-20 23:02:52 <jouke> gwillen: to be honest, I haven't tried that yet.
1541 2013-05-20 23:02:54 <gwillen> jouke: if you do it by executing script, when you hit unexpected scripts it's going to do something unexpected
1542 2013-05-20 23:02:58 <gwillen> and the result will hurt you
1543 2013-05-20 23:03:09 <gwillen> (assuming you're relying on the correctness of the output of this)
1544 2013-05-20 23:03:37 <gwillen> jouke: look at the isStandard code, which pattern-matches transactions to decide if they look "normal"
1545 2013-05-20 23:03:54 * Luke-Jr ponders sending a transaction OP_CHECKSIG <pubkey> OP_CHECKSIG <.<
1546 2013-05-20 23:03:55 <jouke> Hehe, no, I am not relying in the correctness of my own creations :P
1547 2013-05-20 23:04:09 <gwillen> if you just want to extract the recipient public key from single-recipient ordinary transactions, and fail on any other transaction (but do so cleanly), that's the code I'd model yourself after
1548 2013-05-20 23:04:17 <gwillen> but why you would want to do this is still an open question ;-)
1549 2013-05-20 23:04:55 <gwillen> (it's not at all clear to me why this would be a useful thing to do.)
1550 2013-05-20 23:05:20 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: Its really a deep and subtle truth. That kind of thinking allows you to understand how we can completely replace ECDSA with any other asymetric crypto without changing anything if script were turing complete (and we didn't care about efficiency).
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1552 2013-05-20 23:05:51 <jouke> well, why I am doing it is twofold, first is to see what nonstandard transactions are out there
1553 2013-05-20 23:06:01 <gwillen> ahhh, *nods*
1554 2013-05-20 23:06:07 <gwillen> yeah, definitely look at isStandard
1555 2013-05-20 23:06:09 <gmaxwell> jouke: oh well, if you want to do that use the test from the bitcoind code.
1556 2013-05-20 23:06:16 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: if we did the SCIP suggestion, the new scripts *could* be turing complete..
1557 2013-05-20 23:06:17 jtimon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1558 2013-05-20 23:06:18 <gwillen> or do what gmaxwell says, he knows more than I do
1559 2013-05-20 23:06:51 cyphase_mobile2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1560 2013-05-20 23:07:04 <jouke> second is to actually map transactions to a ECDSA pubkey within a bitcoin script.
1561 2013-05-20 23:07:16 <gwillen> jouke: and then do what with the result?
1562 2013-05-20 23:07:17 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: correct. Well, even more interesting, the scripts aren't computing anything at all: they just become proofs that someone else ran the script and it passed. But yes.
1563 2013-05-20 23:07:27 <jouke> Things
1564 2013-05-20 23:07:28 <gwillen> jouke: you won't be able to rely on getting such a pubkey for every transaction
1565 2013-05-20 23:07:33 <jouke> I know
1566 2013-05-20 23:07:45 <gwillen> what you are doing is very probably a bad idea
1567 2013-05-20 23:07:49 <gwillen> but I can't tell you why without knowing what it is :-)
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1571 2013-05-20 23:08:18 <gmaxwell> As I explained to the SCIP folks, in reality our scripts are already doing that. The spender runs the script and it passes. He publishes it to the network so everyone else can prove that fact for themselves.... they happen to do it by duplicating the execution, but thats just an artifact of it being the easiest way to accomplish that securely.
1572 2013-05-20 23:08:21 <gwillen> just keep in mind that transaction recipients are not 1:1 with ECDSA keys, and to the extent they seem to be it's an incidental fact about how people currently use transactions
1573 2013-05-20 23:08:51 <gmaxwell> That kind of thinking explains why I disagree with amillers ideas that people should have randomly complex scripts which they pay the network to execute. :P
1574 2013-05-20 23:08:52 <jouke> I am aware of that
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1577 2013-05-20 23:10:24 <Luke-Jr> jouke: note that moving forward, pubkeyhash scripts are probably being phased out
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1579 2013-05-20 23:11:47 <jouke> But an example use case would be to facilitate multisignature p2sh transactions to clients that forgot the script they used to make the p2sh. (Providing that the p2s has been used before)
1580 2013-05-20 23:11:57 <jouke> Luke-Jr: you are referring to the payment protocol?
1581 2013-05-20 23:12:15 <Luke-Jr> jouke: no
1582 2013-05-20 23:12:41 <Luke-Jr> jouke: P2SH can replace old pubkeyhash entirely
1583 2013-05-20 23:12:44 <gmaxwell> jouke: forgot the script doesn't make any more sense then hoping to facilitate people who forgot their private key— essentially, in the p2sh case the script is part of the private key— they just happen to copy it verbatim into their public key too.
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1585 2013-05-20 23:14:12 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: your apartment is super-hot XD
1586 2013-05-20 23:14:18 <jouke> gmaxwell: at this moment, there are people that pregenerate a couple of keypairs and deposit the private keys somewhere safe. They can't easily use those keys for p2sh transactions.
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1590 2013-05-20 23:14:40 <Luke-Jr> jouke: why not?
1591 2013-05-20 23:14:45 <gmaxwell> jouke: they can— they'd deposit the p2sh script template too.
1592 2013-05-20 23:14:47 <jouke> Because every time they do, the have to deposit the p2sh script.
1593 2013-05-20 23:15:03 <Luke-Jr> the P2SH script is deterministic from the key in this case
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1595 2013-05-20 23:15:31 <jouke> My parents for example have their keys in a vault that the access only a couple of times per year.
1596 2013-05-20 23:15:36 <Luke-Jr> just shove a few static opcodes on either end
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1598 2013-05-20 23:16:11 <gmaxwell> jouke: e.g. if you and luke made join BIP32 based wallet.  Your private key would be your bip32 root key, the script template, luke's extended public key, and contact information for luke.  You'd put that data in a safe.
1599 2013-05-20 23:16:21 <jouke> Luke-Jr: from a couple of keys and maybe even unknown keys right?
1600 2013-05-20 23:16:59 <Luke-Jr> jouke: it works exactly the same as 1… addresses
1601 2013-05-20 23:17:58 <gmaxwell> I do no believe we'll ever see a wallet attempt to spend random unknown (it didn't generate) scripts.. just identifying a random script is redeemable by you is NP-complete (or at least would be for sure if script were turing complete)
1602 2013-05-20 23:18:24 <jouke> with your use cases, all the keys are known beforehand.
1603 2013-05-20 23:18:40 <Luke-Jr> jouke: they always have to be known beforehand period
1604 2013-05-20 23:18:44 <Luke-Jr> there is NO WAY around that
1605 2013-05-20 23:18:58 <gmaxwell> jouke: In all cases they keys are known beforehand, otherwise how could you give someone the address to pay to?
1606 2013-05-20 23:19:32 <jouke> I mean, before depositting the private keys somewhere safe.
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1608 2013-05-20 23:20:03 <Luke-Jr> same as with old 1… keys
1609 2013-05-20 23:20:28 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: well we can even do better than that soon. Since bip32 lets you generate infinite keys from one starting point.
1610 2013-05-20 23:20:51 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: right.. I meant no worse
1611 2013-05-20 23:21:14 <jouke> Luke-Jr: yes, but you can pregenerate a coule of 1 keys for usage you don't know. That isn't possible with p2sh addresses
1612 2013-05-20 23:21:22 <Luke-Jr> 1…-addresses have all the limitations of P2SH, plus more
1613 2013-05-20 23:21:34 <Luke-Jr> jouke: yes it is
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1616 2013-05-20 23:23:15 <Luke-Jr> everything pubkeyhash can do, P2SH can do better
1617 2013-05-20 23:23:22 <gmaxwell> jouke: the way p2sh addresses will work when we have UI for it is that you'll select file->create new multiparty wallet   and it'll show you an extended pubkey.. and ask for the extended pubkey of the counterpart(y|ies). And your counterpart(y|ies) do the same thing.
1618 2013-05-20 23:23:31 <jouke> Ok, so I just deposited my private key / root key at a vault in the bank. Now i want to make a p2sh with you, we generate a new p2sh address for that. And for safe keeping I need to go to the bank again.
1619 2013-05-20 23:23:45 <gmaxwell> Then you have a multiparty wallet that you can backup... and you can do as many addresses/transactions as you like in the multiparty wallet.
1620 2013-05-20 23:24:06 <Luke-Jr> jouke: you're asking to do something IMPOSSIBLE with pubkeyhash
1621 2013-05-20 23:24:40 <Luke-Jr> P2SH makes it POSSIBLE, even if it requires adding more data to your wallet
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1624 2013-05-20 23:25:37 <jouke> Multisigs are possible without p2sh without going to the bank every time I meet a new person.
1625 2013-05-20 23:25:37 <Luke-Jr> jouke: P2SH can do everything pubkeyhash does, IN ADDITION to your new multisig stuff
1626 2013-05-20 23:25:54 <Luke-Jr> jouke: not really
1627 2013-05-20 23:26:09 <jouke> Why not?
1628 2013-05-20 23:26:17 <Luke-Jr> people can't use it
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1630 2013-05-20 23:26:27 <gmaxwell> jouke: if by 'bank' you mean writing to erasure resistant private storage, no... sadly.
1631 2013-05-20 23:26:58 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: good point.. there's no sensitive info in the new data
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1635 2013-05-20 23:27:21 <gmaxwell> jouke: even if you don't use p2sh, if you don't actually know who holds what key and what you must do to satisfy them ... you're SOL. It's not highly sensitive data at least, though it isn't public data.
1636 2013-05-20 23:27:46 <tlrobinson_> is there a reason the bootstrap.dat that's being distributed isn't updated more often?
1637 2013-05-20 23:27:54 <gmaxwell> p2sh makes the fact more obvious because it makes it more clear that you can't guess.
1638 2013-05-20 23:28:14 <Luke-Jr> tlrobinson_: mainly because bittorrent doesn't support updating, and syncing from network is basically just as fast
1639 2013-05-20 23:28:15 <gmaxwell> tlrobinson_: because it doesn't need to be, its only a moderate improvement... and because updating it breaks the torrent.
1640 2013-05-20 23:28:54 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: know if there are any vending machines for drinks nearby?
1641 2013-05-20 23:28:58 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
1642 2013-05-20 23:29:57 <gmaxwell> there is a CVS about 650 feet away.
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1644 2013-05-20 23:30:11 <jouke> gmaxwell: imo there is a huge difference in not knowing who holds the key and not knowing the keys.
1645 2013-05-20 23:30:34 <jouke> anyway, I am off the bed.
1646 2013-05-20 23:31:02 <gmaxwell> jouke: I agree. if you don't know who holds them you're totally screwed.  If you know who holds them but not which keys it's a modest search to figure out the keys.
1647 2013-05-20 23:31:19 <jouke> :,)
1648 2013-05-20 23:31:48 <gmaxwell> (you'd just try all your keys * their keys combinations in the latter case)
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1651 2013-05-20 23:32:22 <Luke-Jr> brb
1652 2013-05-20 23:33:00 brwyatt_ is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt_
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1658 2013-05-20 23:36:20 <jouke> gmaxwell: and what if, in for example a 2 of 3 multisig transaction, they all lose the p2sh script and one loses all their keys?
1659 2013-05-20 23:36:54 <weex> re: the wikipedia page, does it make sense to call the usd exchange rate with btc an exchange rate or a price?
1660 2013-05-20 23:37:48 <weex> i changed it to exchange rate and those edits were changed back to "price", guess i should just put something on the talk page
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1662 2013-05-20 23:38:45 <jouke> gmaxwell: because that may happen in a businesscase I know of.
1663 2013-05-20 23:39:09 <gmaxwell> jouke: if you can keep a record of _who_ you were transacting with in a reliable and robust way— then why can you not also record which pubkeys you used?
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1669 2013-05-20 23:46:51 <jouke> because that is how the bussinesscase works. Anyway, I am off.
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1674 2013-05-20 23:52:28 <sipa> jouke: i think you're confusing trying to identify "which key is able to spend this output" with "what is the destination of this output"
1675 2013-05-20 23:52:35 <sipa> jouke: (i haven't read the entire discussion though)
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1677 2013-05-20 23:55:19 <PRab> Anyone know what is the status of https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0011 as of 0.8.1?
1678 2013-05-20 23:56:02 <sipa> PRab: fully active since 0.6 afaik
1679 2013-05-20 23:57:01 <PRab> What is the plan for it in relation to BIP_0016? Will it be deprecated?
1680 2013-05-20 23:57:32 <sipa> they are orthogonal
1681 2013-05-20 23:57:43 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
1682 2013-05-20 23:58:05 <PRab> I have a use case that requires a 3of4 signature, so I can't use BIP 11.
1683 2013-05-20 23:58:35 cads has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1684 2013-05-20 23:58:39 <PRab> If I understand BIP 16 correctly, I should be able to use that instead, correct?