1 2013-05-21 00:01:24 <Luke-Jr> PRab: yes and no
   2 2013-05-21 00:01:33 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
   3 2013-05-21 00:01:40 <Luke-Jr> PRab: BIP 16 helps people send to you, but you will have to be careful spending
   4 2013-05-21 00:01:57 <sipa> PRab: bip16 doesn't have anything to do with it, as it makes anything standard that sends to an otherwise standard subscript
   5 2013-05-21 00:02:13 <Goonie_> what's the plan for 0.8.2? will there be an additional rc2?
   6 2013-05-21 00:02:26 <PRab> Sounds like I have some more research to do.
   7 2013-05-21 00:02:29 <Luke-Jr> Goonie_: I don't see any major issues in rc1
   8 2013-05-21 00:02:46 <Luke-Jr> PRab: to spend, you'd need to peer directly with Eligius and ensure you attached a reasonable fee
   9 2013-05-21 00:03:02 <sipa> PRab: anyway, if you want a new standard template, feel free to suggest it on the dev mailinglist or so
  10 2013-05-21 00:03:08 <Luke-Jr> and wait on Eligius to find a block
  11 2013-05-21 00:03:35 <PRab> luke-jr: Other pools won't mine it?
  12 2013-05-21 00:03:44 <Luke-Jr> PRab: I'm not aware of any
  13 2013-05-21 00:03:59 <PRab> luke-jr: I see.
  14 2013-05-21 00:04:24 Bohren_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  15 2013-05-21 00:04:42 <PRab> sipa: Would just raising the limit of 3 in BIP 11 be considered a "new standard template"?
  16 2013-05-21 00:04:57 <Luke-Jr> PRab: yes
  17 2013-05-21 00:05:00 <sipa> PRab: yes
  18 2013-05-21 00:05:10 <sipa> (though a rather trivial one)
  19 2013-05-21 00:05:28 <Luke-Jr> PRab: if you can argue for it, I think you'll have not much resistance
  20 2013-05-21 00:05:54 <Luke-Jr> if anyone complains, maybe offer to make it a new kind of "requires fees" standard tx
  21 2013-05-21 00:06:20 <Luke-Jr> otoh, miners can ignore the default definitions of standard too
  22 2013-05-21 00:06:26 <PRab> Ok, I think I'll research BIP 16 some more and go from there. I don't mind if it is difficult to get the transactions mined for now, but I just want to make sure I don't paint myself into a corner.
  23 2013-05-21 00:07:34 <gmaxwell> I'd have some minor reservations wrt certian kinds of data storage transactions, esp in light of the fact that I'm not a aware of a single application offering even of 3 transactions to regular users which is widely used. .. but it's not a very major concern. Certantly seeing real usage, where there really are four parties in the key, would be persusaive to me.
  24 2013-05-21 00:08:12 <Luke-Jr> heh, I'm assuming no data abuse ☺
  25 2013-05-21 00:08:43 BenderCoin has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  26 2013-05-21 00:09:17 <PRab> My use case is I have 2 mutually untrusted parties. I make a 3of4 address where I have 2 of the keys. I need at least one of the parties to allow me to spend my money, but neither one can steal it even if they collude together.
  27 2013-05-21 00:09:48 <PRab> The real life case is a self-directed IRA.
  28 2013-05-21 00:09:57 <Luke-Jr> PRab: I would suggest looking at modifying the LowSigop multisig cases then
  29 2013-05-21 00:10:29 <Luke-Jr> BIP 19
  30 2013-05-21 00:10:35 <gmaxwell> what you actualy one is A && B||C.  I'd prefer to make some kind of A && (B||C) standard than 3 of 4.. and you'd be happier using them, as they should be smaller.
  31 2013-05-21 00:10:48 Bohren has joined
  32 2013-05-21 00:10:48 <gmaxwell> s/actualy one/actually want/
  33 2013-05-21 00:10:52 <Luke-Jr> I suspect it should be easy to make that A&&(B||C)
  34 2013-05-21 00:11:12 <PRab> Boolean logic would be ideal.
  35 2013-05-21 00:11:26 <PRab> I was just trying to work with the tools that I already knew about.
  36 2013-05-21 00:12:03 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
  37 2013-05-21 00:12:48 porquilho has quit ()
  38 2013-05-21 00:12:54 Neozonz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  39 2013-05-21 00:12:56 <PRab> Thanks for the advice and guidance.
  40 2013-05-21 00:12:59 <gmaxwell> PRab: back around the time of P2SH we talked about stuff for boolean construction address types, and ultimately that discussion turned into p2sh. "Lets generalize all possible scripts in a compact way"
  41 2013-05-21 00:13:20 <sipa> <pubkey_A> OP_CHECKSIGVERIFY <pubkey_B> <pubkey_C> 2 OP_MULTISIGVERIFY
  42 2013-05-21 00:13:26 <PRab> I'll read up on BIP 19 and see what I come up with.
  43 2013-05-21 00:13:27 <sipa> that should do the trick as standard template
  44 2013-05-21 00:13:28 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  45 2013-05-21 00:13:32 <Luke-Jr> sipa: need bug workaround
  46 2013-05-21 00:13:40 <Luke-Jr> PRab: sipa's example is ideal, once fixed
  47 2013-05-21 00:13:41 <sipa> Luke-Jr: which is done in the scriptSig
  48 2013-05-21 00:13:45 <gmaxwell> our script language allows the A&&(B||C) ... we'd just need to make a standard form for it. (well sipa just did)
  49 2013-05-21 00:13:47 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  50 2013-05-21 00:13:49 <Luke-Jr> sipa: ok
  51 2013-05-21 00:14:27 <PRab> sipa
  52 2013-05-21 00:14:53 <PRab> sipa: You can combine multiple SIGVERIFY's, I just keep learning new stuff!
  53 2013-05-21 00:15:17 <gmaxwell> sure, it's not called script for nothing! :)
  54 2013-05-21 00:15:17 <gwillen> PRab: that's why the scripting language exists, it lets you combine whatever you want
  55 2013-05-21 00:15:28 <gwillen> except for the thing where it's restricted by a whitelist of common tx types for safety
  56 2013-05-21 00:15:49 SteveDekorte has joined
  57 2013-05-21 00:15:52 <Luke-Jr> (which can be bypassed about once a day on avg ;P)
  58 2013-05-21 00:15:54 <gmaxwell> semi-restricted. You can mine whatever with a miner's help.
  59 2013-05-21 00:16:01 Diapolis has joined
  60 2013-05-21 00:16:14 <PRab> Yep, I understand the mining part.
  61 2013-05-21 00:16:47 <PRab> luke-jr: Does Eligius allow any non-standard transaction?
  62 2013-05-21 00:17:11 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: hmm, once we have GBT FNO widespread, I'll have to push harder for that -acceptnonstdtxn into mainline :/
  63 2013-05-21 00:17:27 <Luke-Jr> PRab: unless it's obviously spam/abusive, or lacks fees
  64 2013-05-21 00:17:28 tyn has joined
  65 2013-05-21 00:17:40 <PRab> That makes sense.
  66 2013-05-21 00:17:58 <PRab> Alright, I'm off to get a beer.
  67 2013-05-21 00:18:03 <PRab> Thanks for the help.
  68 2013-05-21 00:18:08 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I think we're getting closer to being unconcerned with the safty of non-standard transactions but unfortunately less close wrt the spammyness risk.
  69 2013-05-21 00:18:13 maaku has joined
  70 2013-05-21 00:18:28 <gmaxwell> e.g. we now have good tests of many kinds for the scripting engine.
  71 2013-05-21 00:18:44 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: the Eligius workaround will go away once GBT FNO is widespread
  72 2013-05-21 00:19:58 <Luke-Jr> well, maybe
  73 2013-05-21 00:19:59 <gmaxwell> "[*] allow pool to recommend transactions for inclusion" that does a set priority on transactions sent by the pool?
  74 2013-05-21 00:20:09 savetheinternet has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
  75 2013-05-21 00:20:14 <Luke-Jr> right. pools can sent required txns
  76 2013-05-21 00:20:18 <Luke-Jr> send*
  77 2013-05-21 00:20:38 <gmaxwell> yea, I don't think requiring txn is really incompatible with the goals unless they require a full block worth.
  78 2013-05-21 00:21:06 <Luke-Jr> miners can always pool hop if the required txn is problematic (double spend)
  79 2013-05-21 00:21:34 <gmaxwell> well, and I don't really care much if pools can pick the winners in a reorgless unconfirmed double spend.
  80 2013-05-21 00:22:50 <Luke-Jr> probably want to do a validity check at least
  81 2013-05-21 00:23:34 <Luke-Jr> although that might be ugly, so maybe not a first-release feature
  82 2013-05-21 00:23:40 <gmaxwell> yea, you want to test it for validity _ignoring_ the mempool.
  83 2013-05-21 00:23:55 Neozonz has joined
  84 2013-05-21 00:23:55 Neozonz has quit (Changing host)
  85 2013-05-21 00:23:55 Neozonz has joined
  86 2013-05-21 00:24:13 <gmaxwell> (as it might conflict, and if it does you'd just evict the conflict... but if it conflicts the chain you don't want to work on it)
  87 2013-05-21 00:24:22 sacrelege has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  88 2013-05-21 00:25:07 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that's easy at least
  89 2013-05-21 00:25:17 <Luke-Jr> I was thinking making sure the script was valid etc
  90 2013-05-21 00:25:33 <Luke-Jr> really need a libbitcoinscripting for that though
  91 2013-05-21 00:25:48 <Luke-Jr> plus access to the UTXO
  92 2013-05-21 00:25:58 <gmaxwell> It would be pretty easy to add an rpc api that tests a txn validity without using the mempool.
  93 2013-05-21 00:26:19 <Luke-Jr> I guess that's an option
  94 2013-05-21 00:26:36 guruvan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
  95 2013-05-21 00:26:52 <gmaxwell> hm. well tricky, you actually need a block proposal.
  96 2013-05-21 00:27:05 <gmaxwell> because mempool-less isn't enough: they might depend on each other.
  97 2013-05-21 00:27:23 <Luke-Jr> not a bad idea anyway. I wonder if GBT can easily be extented to give detailed corrective actions on a bad proposal
  98 2013-05-21 00:27:24 guruvan has joined
  99 2013-05-21 00:27:26 <gmaxwell> thats what you do, make a block up with just the required txn, do a block proposal on it.. and if that passes, you can then add more txn.
 100 2013-05-21 00:27:57 <Luke-Jr> ah, that works
 101 2013-05-21 00:28:23 <gmaxwell> if it fails you blacklist the pool for some time interval and failover.
 102 2013-05-21 00:28:41 cyphase_mobile2 has joined
 103 2013-05-21 00:29:01 cyphase_mobile has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 104 2013-05-21 00:29:07 <Luke-Jr> can probably reuse the temp-blacklist for "rejecting all my shares"
 105 2013-05-21 00:29:09 resinate has quit (Quit: resinate)
 106 2013-05-21 00:29:10 Gnaf has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 107 2013-05-21 00:29:18 sacarlson has joined
 108 2013-05-21 00:29:44 <Luke-Jr> lol, I think your Avalons might be at full fan speed XD
 109 2013-05-21 00:29:50 Wild_Bill has joined
 110 2013-05-21 00:30:19 Elmf has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 111 2013-05-21 00:30:59 Blitzboom has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 112 2013-05-21 00:33:56 Blitzboom has joined
 113 2013-05-21 00:33:56 Blitzboom has quit (Changing host)
 114 2013-05-21 00:33:56 Blitzboom has joined
 115 2013-05-21 00:36:32 Michail1_ is now known as Michail1
 116 2013-05-21 00:44:39 <zebedee_> Luke-Jr: I assume you're aware of and happy fees were sufficient for the txn spam in your block http://blockchain.info/block/000000000000001beb1ce072c7f02bf0502a24690a145b0f3bdec8b0b1bc092d
 117 2013-05-21 00:46:10 <Luke-Jr> zebedee_: in fact, some of the spam was intentional!
 118 2013-05-21 00:46:14 franl has joined
 119 2013-05-21 00:46:28 <Luke-Jr> zebedee_: we're trying to trigger the May15 changes so they don't catch us later on
 120 2013-05-21 00:46:48 <zebedee_> Oh really, I wasn't aware.  Thx.
 121 2013-05-21 00:46:53 <gmaxwell> Presumably not the creation of it but the allowing of it.
 122 2013-05-21 00:47:06 suporte85 has joined
 123 2013-05-21 00:47:13 <gmaxwell> (I see there are more correct horse txouts being created there. :( )
 124 2013-05-21 00:47:17 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: petertodd made a bunch of non-standard spam last night I think
 125 2013-05-21 00:47:29 <Luke-Jr> well, I presume his are more useful than those XD
 126 2013-05-21 00:48:14 <gmaxwell> I don't think he did. I thought he was going to make one that spent all of those to OP_RETURN outputs but didn't because you were concerned that they'd be mined while you were in the air.
 127 2013-05-21 00:48:17 <zebedee_> Has anyone managed to create a block that would kill old bitcoind in the last few days?
 128 2013-05-21 00:48:31 <mischief> kill?
 129 2013-05-21 00:48:47 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that's spam :p
 130 2013-05-21 00:48:54 <shesek> how can SWIM undo the horrible mistake of adding the correct horse battery staple address to his bitcoin client?
 131 2013-05-21 00:49:00 <Luke-Jr> zebedee_: no, that's what we're aiming for
 132 2013-05-21 00:49:04 * shesek facepalms
 133 2013-05-21 00:49:36 gfinn has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 134 2013-05-21 00:49:48 <mischief> shesek: gesundheit
 135 2013-05-21 00:49:58 <gmaxwell> shesek: ugh.
 136 2013-05-21 00:50:01 cyphase_mobile2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 137 2013-05-21 00:50:27 * Luke-Jr facepalms
 138 2013-05-21 00:50:34 <sipa> SWIM?
 139 2013-05-21 00:50:47 <mischief> some one who isnot me
 140 2013-05-21 00:50:53 <Luke-Jr> it gets tempting to remove importprivkey day after day..
 141 2013-05-21 00:50:58 kaptah has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 142 2013-05-21 00:50:59 <shesek> ... when it usually is
 143 2013-05-21 00:51:07 <phantomcircuit> zebedee_, nope i have 0.63.3 0.7.1 0.7.2 0.8.1 all reporting the same block as the best chain
 144 2013-05-21 00:51:28 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: you should add 0.4.9 and 0.7.3 to that list, at least :P
 145 2013-05-21 00:51:32 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, i cant remembers does that trigger a rescan everytime it's imported
 146 2013-05-21 00:51:43 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: yes
 147 2013-05-21 00:51:48 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, system only has 8GB of ram
 148 2013-05-21 00:51:51 <shesek> I only have a couple of active addresses. I guess I could remove the wallet completely and re-import those private keys
 149 2013-05-21 00:51:53 <phantomcircuit> and is using conventional disks
 150 2013-05-21 00:52:00 <phantomcircuit> it's already under hilarious load as it is
 151 2013-05-21 00:52:01 <Luke-Jr> hmm
 152 2013-05-21 00:52:11 <Luke-Jr> I wonder if bitcoin nodes could benefit from memory dedupe
 153 2013-05-21 00:52:14 <shesek> there's no better way to remove private keys after they're added?
 154 2013-05-21 00:52:24 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, unlikely that pages would be identical
 155 2013-05-21 00:52:31 <phantomcircuit> units smaller than a page yes
 156 2013-05-21 00:52:34 <phantomcircuit> but not entire pages
 157 2013-05-21 00:52:54 cyphase_mobile has joined
 158 2013-05-21 00:52:54 cyphase_mobile has quit (Changing host)
 159 2013-05-21 00:52:54 cyphase_mobile has joined
 160 2013-05-21 00:53:43 Aurigae has left ()
 161 2013-05-21 00:55:07 kaptah has joined
 162 2013-05-21 00:55:42 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: were you at the Conf?
 163 2013-05-21 00:56:11 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: No he mentioned a few days ago he wasn't..
 164 2013-05-21 00:56:17 <Luke-Jr> XD
 165 2013-05-21 00:56:25 <midnightmagic> :)
 166 2013-05-21 00:56:52 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
 167 2013-05-21 00:57:24 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, fuck
 168 2013-05-21 00:57:26 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, no
 169 2013-05-21 00:57:50 nsillik has joined
 170 2013-05-21 00:58:07 [Author] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 171 2013-05-21 00:58:29 Cusipzzz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 172 2013-05-21 01:00:14 Guest91782 has joined
 173 2013-05-21 01:02:24 tucenaber has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 174 2013-05-21 01:04:43 super3 has joined
 175 2013-05-21 01:05:33 Lexa has joined
 176 2013-05-21 01:06:22 Guest91782 is now known as Cusipzzz
 177 2013-05-21 01:06:30 Cusipzzz has quit (Changing host)
 178 2013-05-21 01:06:30 Cusipzzz has joined
 179 2013-05-21 01:10:04 serp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 180 2013-05-21 01:12:59 theymos has joined
 181 2013-05-21 01:14:06 resinate has joined
 182 2013-05-21 01:16:03 [Author] has joined
 183 2013-05-21 01:17:14 serp has joined
 184 2013-05-21 01:17:54 pitufo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 185 2013-05-21 01:20:15 GordonG3kko has quit ()
 186 2013-05-21 01:24:29 hsmiths has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 187 2013-05-21 01:25:20 hsmiths has joined
 188 2013-05-21 01:26:21 da2ce7 has quit (2!~kvirc@opentransactions/dev/da2ce7|Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 189 2013-05-21 01:26:57 <saivann> I should move bitcoin.org to the new transifex branch tomorrow.  If you'd like to comment or ask for additional delay : https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/178
 190 2013-05-21 01:27:45 <saivann> We already have a nice team of translators : https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/bitcoinorg/
 191 2013-05-21 01:35:36 <gmaxwell> sipa: the main complaint with the rescan thing right now is that if you take a working node and rm wallet.dat and start it.. you've got a many-minutes startup due to the full rescan. Which is a major regression from prior behavior.
 192 2013-05-21 01:36:17 <sipa> oh, i must have missed thatr
 193 2013-05-21 01:36:22 toffoo has quit ()
 194 2013-05-21 01:36:39 <Luke-Jr> saivann: hmm, does it have a way to version the translation data easily?
 195 2013-05-21 01:36:40 <sipa> yeah. we'll need a bestblock-written-at-creation for that
 196 2013-05-21 01:37:13 <Luke-Jr> saivann: and have review of translations, so idiots can't translate things as "give me all ur moneys" and get itlive immediatley?
 197 2013-05-21 01:37:45 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
 198 2013-05-21 01:38:13 CaptainBlaze has quit (Quit: CaptainBlaze)
 199 2013-05-21 01:38:44 nsillik has joined
 200 2013-05-21 01:39:53 owowo has joined
 201 2013-05-21 01:40:24 nsillik has quit (Client Quit)
 202 2013-05-21 01:40:34 winterblack has joined
 203 2013-05-21 01:40:49 rushed has quit (Quit: rushed)
 204 2013-05-21 01:43:41 darkee has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 205 2013-05-21 01:44:14 darkee has joined
 206 2013-05-21 01:44:40 nethershaw has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 207 2013-05-21 01:45:35 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 208 2013-05-21 01:47:29 tyn has joined
 209 2013-05-21 01:47:30 brson has quit (Quit: leaving)
 210 2013-05-21 01:50:19 resinate has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 211 2013-05-21 01:50:23 nizeguy has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 212 2013-05-21 01:54:10 Liquid_ has joined
 213 2013-05-21 01:54:35 cyphase_mobile has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 214 2013-05-21 01:56:37 Liquid3xB has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 215 2013-05-21 02:06:09 px has joined
 216 2013-05-21 02:07:36 ralphtheninja has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 217 2013-05-21 02:09:05 kruhft has joined
 218 2013-05-21 02:10:24 Liquid_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 219 2013-05-21 02:10:26 AlbertTuring has joined
 220 2013-05-21 02:10:45 resinate has joined
 221 2013-05-21 02:12:08 <kruhft> I'm going over the mining code in cpuminer and I'm curious about the second call to runhash.  It's passing in hash1 as the data to hash, which is a uchar[32] (256 bits). sha256_transform doesn't do any input prepping or padding up to the 512 bit block size required, so how does this work when you're only passing in 256 bits? I think I'm missing something obvious but I just can't see it.
 222 2013-05-21 02:13:52 <lianj> can someone please find another block
 223 2013-05-21 02:14:34 <Luke-Jr> kruhft: might benefit from looking at the current code in BFGMiner. I suspect it's at least slightly clearer
 224 2013-05-21 02:14:47 Liquid3xB has joined
 225 2013-05-21 02:16:01 rushed has joined
 226 2013-05-21 02:16:33 nsillik has joined
 227 2013-05-21 02:18:11 nsillik has quit (Client Quit)
 228 2013-05-21 02:19:12 nsillik has joined
 229 2013-05-21 02:21:28 nsillik has quit (Client Quit)
 230 2013-05-21 02:24:59 X-Factor has joined
 231 2013-05-21 02:25:41 SteveDekorte has quit (Quit: SteveDekorte)
 232 2013-05-21 02:26:36 treaki__ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 233 2013-05-21 02:26:56 treaki_ has joined
 234 2013-05-21 02:28:18 enikanorov_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 235 2013-05-21 02:29:43 enikanorov has joined
 236 2013-05-21 02:30:09 <saivann> Luke-Jr : bitcoin.org on transifex requires translator to be accepted before being able to translate. So we can keep quality control on this part. I always ask more than one reviewer for each translation. And I do some basic verification using google translate. Translations are also not pushed automatically from transifex to github, we are fully in control of which translation we include or update.
 237 2013-05-21 02:30:38 <Luke-Jr> saivann: sounds good
 238 2013-05-21 02:31:06 <Luke-Jr> I presume it going through github means they're versioned at that point as well
 239 2013-05-21 02:32:15 <kruhft> Luke-Jr: it's not that it's not clear, it's just that it looks wrong :-)  I'll take a look at BFGMiner and see if I can see the light.
 240 2013-05-21 02:32:53 <saivann> Luke-Jr : Concerning versionning, we are doing incremental changes anyway. Each time we update the english sentences, they are set to be retranslated on transifex. And when we import a translation from transifex, github automatically detects changes.
 241 2013-05-21 02:33:11 LainZ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 242 2013-05-21 02:33:34 catcow has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 243 2013-05-21 02:33:58 <saivann> Luke-Jr : Of course for small typo changes, there is a way to update the english sentences on transifex without asking translators to re-translate uselessly. I've documented that on the new README on that branch
 244 2013-05-21 02:34:29 <Luke-Jr> that's handy
 245 2013-05-21 02:34:38 <Luke-Jr> wonder if we can do that for Bitcoin-Qt as well
 246 2013-05-21 02:35:19 catcow has joined
 247 2013-05-21 02:35:26 <saivann> Luke-Jr : I'm pretty sure you can do the same with Bitcoin-Qt, you only have to use the transifex client to push an update for all translations at once.
 248 2013-05-21 02:35:28 catcow has quit (Changing host)
 249 2013-05-21 02:35:28 catcow has joined
 250 2013-05-21 02:36:24 <saivann> Luke-Jr : https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/tree/transifex#update-source-strings-on-transifex
 251 2013-05-21 02:37:30 <Luke-Jr> ah, makes sense
 252 2013-05-21 02:37:50 <kruhft> Luke-Jr: ah ok, so bfgminer is doing block prep.  I don't see this at all in cpuminer, so it must have been broken.
 253 2013-05-21 02:37:55 <saivann> It's especially important for bitcoin.org because we have a lot of long sentences. Asking translators to re-work them only for a typo don't make sense. I guess it's less likely to happen with Bitcoin-Qt
 254 2013-05-21 02:38:24 <Luke-Jr> kruhft: or buried the code where it did that
 255 2013-05-21 02:38:58 <kruhft> Luke-Jr: maybe, but it must be pretty hidden
 256 2013-05-21 02:39:00 franl has left ("O Elbereth!  Gilthoniel!  We still remember ...")
 257 2013-05-21 02:40:11 X-Factor has quit (Quit: ThrashIRC v2.8 sic populo comunicated)
 258 2013-05-21 02:41:06 <kruhft> Luke-Jr: thanks for the pointer!
 259 2013-05-21 02:41:07 kruhft has left ("rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1")
 260 2013-05-21 02:42:18 <Luke-Jr> np
 261 2013-05-21 02:43:19 twobits has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 262 2013-05-21 02:51:47 IanCormac has joined
 263 2013-05-21 02:52:35 <IanCormac> What do you guys think about this? Thought it was a pretty clever and simple solution to a few problems. http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1eppnb/48_hour_unconfirmed_transaction_whats_wrong_here/ca2m071
 264 2013-05-21 02:55:23 Namworld has joined
 265 2013-05-21 02:56:38 fiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 266 2013-05-21 02:56:52 RBecker is now known as rbecker
 267 2013-05-21 02:56:57 Mad7Scientist has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 268 2013-05-21 02:57:09 Diablo-D3 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 269 2013-05-21 02:57:12 phma_ has joined
 270 2013-05-21 02:57:46 <jchp> IanCormac: several pools already do that
 271 2013-05-21 02:57:59 phma has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 272 2013-05-21 02:58:06 <IanCormac> Oh, neat. Do you know which?
 273 2013-05-21 02:58:28 <jchp> i asked that exact question a couple months ago, from what i remember, eligius and slush do. maybe more.
 274 2013-05-21 02:59:12 <IanCormac> Cool. Good to know
 275 2013-05-21 02:59:41 d34th has quit (Quit: Deleted System32)
 276 2013-05-21 03:02:08 fiesh has joined
 277 2013-05-21 03:02:35 AusBitBank has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 278 2013-05-21 03:03:43 cjsw3 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 279 2013-05-21 03:04:49 AusBitBank has joined
 280 2013-05-21 03:06:03 safra has joined
 281 2013-05-21 03:08:37 <Luke-Jr> jchp: I thought it was Eligius and EclipseMC
 282 2013-05-21 03:08:49 SteveDekorte has joined
 283 2013-05-21 03:09:03 <IanCormac> Either way, I'm glad someone is making it possible to un-stick transactions
 284 2013-05-21 03:09:34 <Luke-Jr> petertodd also has a patch to allow replacement with higher fees
 285 2013-05-21 03:09:43 <Luke-Jr> planning on deploying that when I get back
 286 2013-05-21 03:09:43 d34th has joined
 287 2013-05-21 03:09:46 <SteveDekorte> is it considered bad form to just send a tx instead of sending an inv_tx and waiting for a getdata?
 288 2013-05-21 03:15:40 <amiller> SteveDekorte, i think it's the case that currently nodes just take the tx and deal with it, but the infrastructure is there to make it so you get dinged in your ddos score if the tx is not expected
 289 2013-05-21 03:15:45 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 290 2013-05-21 03:15:50 <amiller> ddos score / misbehavior counter / whatever
 291 2013-05-21 03:16:07 <amiller> (but someone else should confirm this because i'm wrong at least 50% i say anything about how nodes behave)
 292 2013-05-21 03:18:21 SteveDekorte has quit (Quit: SteveDekorte)
 293 2013-05-21 03:18:49 jeewee has joined
 294 2013-05-21 03:23:34 Goonie_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 295 2013-05-21 03:26:56 LorenzoMoney has joined
 296 2013-05-21 03:27:34 LorenzoMoney has left ()
 297 2013-05-21 03:29:36 ngc0202 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 298 2013-05-21 03:31:10 Breign has joined
 299 2013-05-21 03:32:35 Luke-Jr has quit (Excess Flood)
 300 2013-05-21 03:33:05 Luke-Jr has joined
 301 2013-05-21 03:33:26 Nekkkros has joined
 302 2013-05-21 03:33:34 Nekkros has left ()
 303 2013-05-21 03:34:46 Blackreign has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 304 2013-05-21 03:35:00 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
 305 2013-05-21 03:35:08 Arnavion has quit (Quit: Arnavion)
 306 2013-05-21 03:35:09 [7] has joined
 307 2013-05-21 03:35:26 cads has joined
 308 2013-05-21 03:36:42 Nekkkros has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 309 2013-05-21 03:36:48 Arnavion has joined
 310 2013-05-21 03:37:03 Nekkkros has joined
 311 2013-05-21 03:38:22 Nekkros has joined
 312 2013-05-21 03:38:38 Nekkros has quit (Client Quit)
 313 2013-05-21 03:39:36 Skav has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 314 2013-05-21 03:39:47 MobPhone has joined
 315 2013-05-21 03:47:46 [\\\] has joined
 316 2013-05-21 03:48:11 twobitcoins__ has joined
 317 2013-05-21 03:48:45 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 318 2013-05-21 03:50:40 molec has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 319 2013-05-21 03:51:24 twobitcoins_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 320 2013-05-21 03:53:52 sagax_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 321 2013-05-21 03:54:02 Arnavion has quit (Quit: Arnavion)
 322 2013-05-21 04:00:31 Blackreign has joined
 323 2013-05-21 04:04:07 Breign has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 324 2013-05-21 04:05:51 molec has joined
 325 2013-05-21 04:07:47 sagax_ has joined
 326 2013-05-21 04:09:15 Arnavion has joined
 327 2013-05-21 04:15:01 wallet43 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 328 2013-05-21 04:15:56 allban has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 329 2013-05-21 04:18:45 cads has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 330 2013-05-21 04:18:59 FabianB_ has joined
 331 2013-05-21 04:19:21 cads has joined
 332 2013-05-21 04:20:08 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
 333 2013-05-21 04:20:12 FabianB has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 334 2013-05-21 04:21:31 serp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 335 2013-05-21 04:21:32 Phoebus has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
 336 2013-05-21 04:22:30 starsoccer has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 337 2013-05-21 04:22:59 phungus has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 338 2013-05-21 04:23:34 rushed has quit (Quit: rushed)
 339 2013-05-21 04:24:28 EPiSKiNG- has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 340 2013-05-21 04:28:10 metabyte_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 341 2013-05-21 04:28:38 metabyte has joined
 342 2013-05-21 04:29:23 serp has joined
 343 2013-05-21 04:30:05 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 344 2013-05-21 04:33:34 <maaku> Luke-Jr: do you know any examples that are not scamcoins where the perpetrator was too lazy/incompetent to change the nTime&nNonce?
 345 2013-05-21 04:36:46 starsoccer has joined
 346 2013-05-21 04:38:19 metabyte has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 347 2013-05-21 04:42:02 metabyte has joined
 348 2013-05-21 04:42:28 stochasm has joined
 349 2013-05-21 04:44:30 Plinker_ is now known as Plinker
 350 2013-05-21 04:45:48 wallet43 has joined
 351 2013-05-21 04:45:57 Guest79989 has joined
 352 2013-05-21 04:46:17 gjj_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 353 2013-05-21 04:46:58 AtashiCon has quit (Quit: AtashiCon)
 354 2013-05-21 04:47:31 Guest79989 is now known as EPiSKiNG-
 355 2013-05-21 04:51:33 <Luke-Jr> maaku: TBC uses the same blockchain as BTC, thus the same exact genesis (& every other) block
 356 2013-05-21 04:52:25 <maaku> well with respect I consider TBC and BTC the same for that reason :P
 357 2013-05-21 04:52:28 <gmaxwell> maaku: asking not scamcoin is likely not the most useful question.
 358 2013-05-21 04:53:04 <gmaxwell> yacoin == litecoin, is the more interesting option.
 359 2013-05-21 04:53:16 <Luke-Jr> maaku: in regard to the payment protocol, I'm not sure they're equivalent
 360 2013-05-21 04:54:53 IanCormac has quit (Quit: IanCormac)
 361 2013-05-21 04:55:00 wallet43 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 362 2013-05-21 04:55:56 <maaku> Luke-Jr: but wouldn't the difference only be the denomination of the request & payment?
 363 2013-05-21 04:56:32 <maaku> e.g, if you sent someone a request for 1TBC and they sent back 0.00065536BTC, there wouldn't be a problem right?
 364 2013-05-21 04:58:22 <maaku> gmaxwell: what I mean is that it's best practice when creating an alt-chain to modify the genesis block; i'm not aware of any reason you would have an altchain with the same genesis..
 365 2013-05-21 04:59:23 Guest82658 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 366 2013-05-21 04:59:30 <maaku> and the ones that do have the same genesis right now are unredeemable (and illegal) frauds
 367 2013-05-21 05:00:06 <maaku> so I'm not too concerned about going out of my way to stay compatible with them
 368 2013-05-21 05:00:33 novusordo has joined
 369 2013-05-21 05:00:56 novusordo is now known as Guest364
 370 2013-05-21 05:01:13 SteveDekorte has joined
 371 2013-05-21 05:02:04 nsillik has joined
 372 2013-05-21 05:03:21 ghash has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 373 2013-05-21 05:03:35 ghash has joined
 374 2013-05-21 05:03:49 nsillik has quit (Client Quit)
 375 2013-05-21 05:04:46 savetheinternet has joined
 376 2013-05-21 05:04:52 mow has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 377 2013-05-21 05:05:25 GordonG3kko has joined
 378 2013-05-21 05:05:35 AtashiCon has joined
 379 2013-05-21 05:05:49 mow has joined
 380 2013-05-21 05:06:01 savetheinternet has quit (Client Quit)
 381 2013-05-21 05:06:19 metabyte has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 382 2013-05-21 05:06:30 SteveDekorte has quit (Quit: SteveDekorte)
 383 2013-05-21 05:09:29 KingCoin has joined
 384 2013-05-21 05:11:18 Neozonz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 385 2013-05-21 05:14:47 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 386 2013-05-21 05:16:08 Namworld has quit ()
 387 2013-05-21 05:18:30 SteveDekorte has joined
 388 2013-05-21 05:22:42 savetheinternet has joined
 389 2013-05-21 05:26:37 Hunner has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 390 2013-05-21 05:27:21 savetheinternet has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 391 2013-05-21 05:27:58 brwyatt_ is now known as brwyatt_|Away
 392 2013-05-21 05:31:49 sacarlson has joined
 393 2013-05-21 05:33:43 fanquake has joined
 394 2013-05-21 05:35:39 Hunner has joined
 395 2013-05-21 05:35:39 Hunner has quit (Changing host)
 396 2013-05-21 05:35:39 Hunner has joined
 397 2013-05-21 05:37:22 Liquid3xB has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 398 2013-05-21 05:38:16 duSn has joined
 399 2013-05-21 05:39:04 Liquid3xB has joined
 400 2013-05-21 05:45:15 [7] has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 401 2013-05-21 05:45:30 MoALTz_ has joined
 402 2013-05-21 05:45:33 TheSeven has joined
 403 2013-05-21 05:46:41 marco__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 404 2013-05-21 05:48:26 MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 405 2013-05-21 05:50:57 wallet43 has joined
 406 2013-05-21 05:56:16 marcop has joined
 407 2013-05-21 05:58:31 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
 408 2013-05-21 05:59:36 wallet43 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 409 2013-05-21 06:07:06 Elmf has joined
 410 2013-05-21 06:07:13 Elmf has quit (Client Quit)
 411 2013-05-21 06:07:34 Elmf has joined
 412 2013-05-21 06:10:18 toffoo has joined
 413 2013-05-21 06:10:27 GordonG3kko has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 414 2013-05-21 06:11:39 GordonG3kko has joined
 415 2013-05-21 06:21:38 Neozonz has joined
 416 2013-05-21 06:22:12 [Author] has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 417 2013-05-21 06:24:59 skeledrew has joined
 418 2013-05-21 06:25:11 tyn has joined
 419 2013-05-21 06:26:41 whiterabbit has joined
 420 2013-05-21 06:28:37 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 421 2013-05-21 06:28:42 whiterabbit is now known as wrabbit
 422 2013-05-21 06:29:35 skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 423 2013-05-21 06:29:37 nsillik has joined
 424 2013-05-21 06:29:59 [Author] has joined
 425 2013-05-21 06:31:24 nsillik has quit (Client Quit)
 426 2013-05-21 06:32:07 Squidicuz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 427 2013-05-21 06:33:03 Squidicuz has joined
 428 2013-05-21 06:33:27 Phil21 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 429 2013-05-21 06:33:34 Phil21 has joined
 430 2013-05-21 06:35:30 tlrobinson has joined
 431 2013-05-21 06:37:33 tlrobinson has quit (Client Quit)
 432 2013-05-21 06:38:57 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
 433 2013-05-21 06:41:09 Phoebus has joined
 434 2013-05-21 06:47:54 sacrelege has joined
 435 2013-05-21 06:48:14 sacrelege has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 436 2013-05-21 06:48:59 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 437 2013-05-21 06:53:23 dooglus has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 438 2013-05-21 06:54:45 dooglus has joined
 439 2013-05-21 06:56:07 FredEE has joined
 440 2013-05-21 06:56:15 wallet43 has joined
 441 2013-05-21 06:59:10 Guest364 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 442 2013-05-21 07:04:17 Diablo-D3 has joined
 443 2013-05-21 07:05:21 wallet43 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 444 2013-05-21 07:06:17 novusordo has joined
 445 2013-05-21 07:06:28 rushed has joined
 446 2013-05-21 07:06:41 novusordo is now known as Guest85004
 447 2013-05-21 07:07:23 nsillik has joined
 448 2013-05-21 07:09:10 nsillik has quit (Client Quit)
 449 2013-05-21 07:09:15 rushed has quit (Client Quit)
 450 2013-05-21 07:16:47 crank has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 451 2013-05-21 07:21:53 <Luke-Jr> maaku: correction: s/yacoin/feathercoin
 452 2013-05-21 07:23:33 <Luke-Jr> maaku: while technically you are correct on BTC and TBC, it forces the client to guess at the desired unit of currency; also, there is potential for other cases sharing the same blockchain where this does NOT hold true
 453 2013-05-21 07:23:51 <Luke-Jr> for example, if the payment protocol were used for shares of a coloured coin
 454 2013-05-21 07:24:12 <Luke-Jr> or if an altcoin added the ability to track multiple currencies in the same chain
 455 2013-05-21 07:24:14 <Luke-Jr> etc
 456 2013-05-21 07:28:01 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 457 2013-05-21 07:31:15 saulimus has joined
 458 2013-05-21 07:31:18 wei_ has joined
 459 2013-05-21 07:36:06 Thepok has joined
 460 2013-05-21 07:36:19 DBordello has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 461 2013-05-21 07:38:49 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 462 2013-05-21 07:40:23 DBordello has joined
 463 2013-05-21 07:43:53 altamic has joined
 464 2013-05-21 07:47:21 rainworm has quit ()
 465 2013-05-21 07:53:40 RazielZ has joined
 466 2013-05-21 07:59:18 DBordello has quit (Excess Flood)
 467 2013-05-21 07:59:24 aadce520e20c2899 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 468 2013-05-21 07:59:39 SteveDekorte has quit (Quit: SteveDekorte)
 469 2013-05-21 07:59:50 aadce520e20c2899 has joined
 470 2013-05-21 08:00:24 DBordello has joined
 471 2013-05-21 08:01:00 taha has joined
 472 2013-05-21 08:01:28 wallet43 has joined
 473 2013-05-21 08:03:46 AlbertTuring has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 474 2013-05-21 08:03:51 ovidiusoft has joined
 475 2013-05-21 08:03:57 nizeguy has joined
 476 2013-05-21 08:04:05 <super3> feathercoin seems more of a joke than yacoin
 477 2013-05-21 08:04:27 AlbertTuring has joined
 478 2013-05-21 08:04:47 <duSn> /12/c
 479 2013-05-21 08:05:05 <super3> yacoin seems to be completly overrun with amazon spin ups though
 480 2013-05-21 08:07:35 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
 481 2013-05-21 08:08:02 knotwork has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 482 2013-05-21 08:08:39 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: why is your testing procedure not a part of jenkins/pull-tester :P
 483 2013-05-21 08:11:03 Chuky has joined
 484 2013-05-21 08:11:09 wallet43 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 485 2013-05-21 08:17:36 crank has joined
 486 2013-05-21 08:18:45 Fnar has quit (Quit: Client exiting)
 487 2013-05-21 08:21:03 davout has joined
 488 2013-05-21 08:25:21 knotwork has joined
 489 2013-05-21 08:29:46 super3 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 490 2013-05-21 08:29:59 super3 has joined
 491 2013-05-21 08:30:32 Truncatem has joined
 492 2013-05-21 08:31:26 theorbtwo has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 493 2013-05-21 08:32:23 Fnar has joined
 494 2013-05-21 08:33:48 theorbtwo has joined
 495 2013-05-21 08:37:46 knotwork has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 496 2013-05-21 08:43:57 valparaiso is now known as valparaiso_afk
 497 2013-05-21 08:47:21 knotwork has joined
 498 2013-05-21 08:47:21 knotwork has quit (Changing host)
 499 2013-05-21 08:47:21 knotwork has joined
 500 2013-05-21 08:47:35 DBordello has quit (Excess Flood)
 501 2013-05-21 08:48:24 DBordello has joined
 502 2013-05-21 08:53:21 valparaiso_afk is now known as valparaiso
 503 2013-05-21 09:04:22 jtimon has joined
 504 2013-05-21 09:04:25 taha has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 505 2013-05-21 09:06:03 gjj has joined
 506 2013-05-21 09:06:14 <mischief> yay bitcoin filesystem
 507 2013-05-21 09:06:44 wallet43 has joined
 508 2013-05-21 09:07:29 <lianj> best io speed ever?
 509 2013-05-21 09:09:39 <mischief> no it's terrible
 510 2013-05-21 09:09:52 <mischief> have you ever tried to ls a directory with 100000 entries
 511 2013-05-21 09:10:28 draradech has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 512 2013-05-21 09:10:52 <mischief> i'm turning the bitcoin db into a filesystem, not storing files in bitcoin
 513 2013-05-21 09:12:22 zeph97 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 514 2013-05-21 09:14:46 zeph97 has joined
 515 2013-05-21 09:15:08 wallet43 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 516 2013-05-21 09:20:27 <davout> when i have some time on my hands i'll add redis storage to bitcoin-ruby, see how that plays out :-)
 517 2013-05-21 09:24:30 Silverion has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 518 2013-05-21 09:28:01 ry4nn has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 519 2013-05-21 09:31:14 ry4nn has joined
 520 2013-05-21 09:32:20 toffoo has quit ()
 521 2013-05-21 09:38:22 BOBSONATOR has joined
 522 2013-05-21 09:39:04 stochasm has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 523 2013-05-21 09:39:19 <BOBSONATOR> Hey guys, is there anyone awake than can explain to me a few questions I have about mining? it's regarding the combination of midstate hashs + other hash's + nonces & the final hash value
 524 2013-05-21 09:41:47 <BOBSONATOR> I'm trying to figure out weather  1 round of (reverseEach32bits(getwork))[:64] is the midstate
 525 2013-05-21 09:42:15 <BOBSONATOR> that 64 is in bytes btw, so 512 bits
 526 2013-05-21 09:44:33 <BOBSONATOR> then using the h7-h0 from that midstate, and hashing the remaining 128 bits (76:80)+Nonce+Current utc as the final hash?
 527 2013-05-21 09:44:57 <BOBSONATOR> anyone out there?? the wiki kind of blows for this type of knowledge
 528 2013-05-21 09:45:42 <SomeoneWeird> someone will answer, give it time
 529 2013-05-21 09:46:18 <BOBSONATOR> thanks SomeoneWeird
 530 2013-05-21 09:47:27 duSn has quit (Quit: leaving)
 531 2013-05-21 09:49:36 jok has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 532 2013-05-21 09:50:19 nsillik has joined
 533 2013-05-21 09:52:06 nsillik has quit (Client Quit)
 534 2013-05-21 09:52:58 nsillik has joined
 535 2013-05-21 09:53:38 wallet43 has joined
 536 2013-05-21 09:53:49 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 537 2013-05-21 09:53:57 Skav has joined
 538 2013-05-21 09:54:45 nsillik has quit (Client Quit)
 539 2013-05-21 09:57:52 MobPhone has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 540 2013-05-21 09:59:22 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 541 2013-05-21 10:00:23 ralphtheninja has joined
 542 2013-05-21 10:01:03 <BlueMatt> hmm...anyone else notice that the default fee comment is wrong?
 543 2013-05-21 10:01:10 <BlueMatt> a standard txout should be 34 bytes, not 33
 544 2013-05-21 10:01:56 gjs278 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 545 2013-05-21 10:02:42 <BlueMatt> so the actual min non-dust output is 5461, not 5430 afaict
 546 2013-05-21 10:02:53 dansmith_btc has joined
 547 2013-05-21 10:03:51 hnz has joined
 548 2013-05-21 10:04:04 viperhr1 has joined
 549 2013-05-21 10:04:19 Bohren has joined
 550 2013-05-21 10:07:07 Neozonz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 551 2013-05-21 10:09:29 datagutt has joined
 552 2013-05-21 10:12:16 Neozonz has joined
 553 2013-05-21 10:12:16 Neozonz has quit (Changing host)
 554 2013-05-21 10:12:16 Neozonz has joined
 555 2013-05-21 10:12:16 GordonG3kko has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 556 2013-05-21 10:12:16 sensorii has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 557 2013-05-21 10:12:16 guruvan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 558 2013-05-21 10:12:17 owowo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 559 2013-05-21 10:12:17 MobiusL has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 560 2013-05-21 10:12:17 cypher_ has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
 561 2013-05-21 10:12:17 darkee has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
 562 2013-05-21 10:12:17 andytoshi has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
 563 2013-05-21 10:12:17 wrabbit has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
 564 2013-05-21 10:12:17 random_cat has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
 565 2013-05-21 10:12:17 sacredchao has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
 566 2013-05-21 10:13:35 owowo has joined
 567 2013-05-21 10:13:50 wrabbit has joined
 568 2013-05-21 10:14:15 fanquake has left ()
 569 2013-05-21 10:17:40 gjs278 has joined
 570 2013-05-21 10:18:34 mrooke has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 571 2013-05-21 10:19:25 denisx has joined
 572 2013-05-21 10:21:58 Jearil has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 573 2013-05-21 10:22:43 Jearil has joined
 574 2013-05-21 10:23:13 <buZz> .info
 575 2013-05-21 10:23:15 <buZz> arf
 576 2013-05-21 10:30:23 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
 577 2013-05-21 10:30:32 AlbertTuring has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
 578 2013-05-21 10:30:44 nsillik has joined
 579 2013-05-21 10:32:31 nsillik has quit (Client Quit)
 580 2013-05-21 10:33:23 nsillik has joined
 581 2013-05-21 10:33:27 CaptainBlaze has joined
 582 2013-05-21 10:35:11 nsillik has quit (Client Quit)
 583 2013-05-21 10:35:36 Thepok has joined
 584 2013-05-21 10:40:33 Xeno-Genesis has joined
 585 2013-05-21 10:42:57 sensorii has joined
 586 2013-05-21 10:43:27 guruvan has joined
 587 2013-05-21 10:43:28 sacredchao has joined
 588 2013-05-21 10:43:30 rbecker is now known as RBecker
 589 2013-05-21 10:44:26 random_cat has joined
 590 2013-05-21 10:44:28 sensorii has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 591 2013-05-21 10:44:28 guruvan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 592 2013-05-21 10:44:28 sacredchao has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
 593 2013-05-21 10:44:28 random_cat has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
 594 2013-05-21 10:51:53 GordonG3kko has joined
 595 2013-05-21 10:51:57 guruvan has joined
 596 2013-05-21 10:52:57 sensorii has joined
 597 2013-05-21 10:53:47 sacredchao has joined
 598 2013-05-21 10:54:32 Wild_Bill_ has joined
 599 2013-05-21 10:54:56 Wild_Bill_ is now known as Guest6641
 600 2013-05-21 10:55:30 BurtyBB has joined
 601 2013-05-21 10:56:27 andytoshi has joined
 602 2013-05-21 10:57:02 IceLookLo has joined
 603 2013-05-21 10:57:27 Wild_Bill has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 604 2013-05-21 10:58:35 BurtyB has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 605 2013-05-21 10:59:23 random_cat has joined
 606 2013-05-21 10:59:37 Guest6641 has quit (Quit: Not that there is anything wrong with that)
 607 2013-05-21 11:00:37 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 608 2013-05-21 11:03:52 gjs278 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 609 2013-05-21 11:04:27 BurtyBB is now known as BurtyB
 610 2013-05-21 11:05:27 darkee has joined
 611 2013-05-21 11:05:51 ProfMac has joined
 612 2013-05-21 11:06:31 fbettag has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 613 2013-05-21 11:06:32 gjs278 has joined
 614 2013-05-21 11:07:33 tucenaber has joined
 615 2013-05-21 11:08:21 warren has joined
 616 2013-05-21 11:08:33 warren has left ("Leaving")
 617 2013-05-21 11:09:20 tyn has joined
 618 2013-05-21 11:13:34 fbettag has joined
 619 2013-05-21 11:14:31 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 620 2013-05-21 11:20:53 one_zero has quit ()
 621 2013-05-21 11:23:39 BurtyB has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 622 2013-05-21 11:24:03 BurtyB has joined
 623 2013-05-21 11:26:10 cypher_ has joined
 624 2013-05-21 11:26:13 lmacken has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 625 2013-05-21 11:27:33 kaptah has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 626 2013-05-21 11:28:39 BurtyBB has joined
 627 2013-05-21 11:30:52 daybyter has joined
 628 2013-05-21 11:31:31 saulimus has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 629 2013-05-21 11:32:39 BurtyB has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 630 2013-05-21 11:32:42 kaptah has joined
 631 2013-05-21 11:32:49 saulimus has joined
 632 2013-05-21 11:35:10 owowo has quit (Quit: sayonara)
 633 2013-05-21 11:36:45 Bohren has joined
 634 2013-05-21 11:39:48 <BOBSONATOR> echooo echoooooo
 635 2013-05-21 11:40:15 <ProfMac> is it really 2 hours since the last block?
 636 2013-05-21 11:42:33 <jaakkos> no
 637 2013-05-21 11:43:02 <jaakkos> blockchain.info is just messed up
 638 2013-05-21 11:43:45 abracadabra has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 639 2013-05-21 11:43:51 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 640 2013-05-21 11:44:15 abracadabra has joined
 641 2013-05-21 11:44:15 abracadabra has quit (Changing host)
 642 2013-05-21 11:44:15 abracadabra has joined
 643 2013-05-21 11:44:26 root2_ has joined
 644 2013-05-21 11:44:26 <jaakkos> wouldn't it be awesome if at some point, it turns out that when you choose a particular prev block hash in header, dual-SHA256 cannot produce a hash below target? ;)
 645 2013-05-21 11:44:32 SwedFTP_ has joined
 646 2013-05-21 11:44:39 gjs278 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 647 2013-05-21 11:44:45 rler has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 648 2013-05-21 11:45:02 gjs278 has joined
 649 2013-05-21 11:45:07 rler has joined
 650 2013-05-21 11:45:27 SwedFTP has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 651 2013-05-21 11:45:54 root2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 652 2013-05-21 11:45:59 [\\\] has joined
 653 2013-05-21 11:47:45 <jaakkos> i think it would be a pretty bad day for SHA2, though.
 654 2013-05-21 11:59:51 fbettag has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 655 2013-05-21 12:00:25 viperhr1 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 656 2013-05-21 12:01:25 sacrelege has joined
 657 2013-05-21 12:01:26 saracen_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 658 2013-05-21 12:02:04 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 659 2013-05-21 12:03:09 Xeno-Genesis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 660 2013-05-21 12:04:57 fbettag has joined
 661 2013-05-21 12:07:10 NimeshNeema has quit (Excess Flood)
 662 2013-05-21 12:07:28 NimeshNeema has joined
 663 2013-05-21 12:09:06 NimeshNeema has quit (Excess Flood)
 664 2013-05-21 12:09:37 mE\Ta has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 665 2013-05-21 12:10:14 NimeshNeema has joined
 666 2013-05-21 12:10:37 abrkn has joined
 667 2013-05-21 12:12:15 devDelay has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 668 2013-05-21 12:13:21 kanzure has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 669 2013-05-21 12:13:52 kanzure has joined
 670 2013-05-21 12:14:15 mE\Ta has joined
 671 2013-05-21 12:18:34 dansmith_btc has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 672 2013-05-21 12:20:06 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 673 2013-05-21 12:22:15 nsillik has joined
 674 2013-05-21 12:24:02 nsillik has quit (Client Quit)
 675 2013-05-21 12:24:49 BurtyBB is now known as BurtyB
 676 2013-05-21 12:24:53 nsillik has joined
 677 2013-05-21 12:26:41 nsillik has quit (Client Quit)
 678 2013-05-21 12:27:51 iwilcox has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 679 2013-05-21 12:28:39 wei_ has quit (Quit: wei_)
 680 2013-05-21 12:29:33 saracen has joined
 681 2013-05-21 12:29:35 devDelay has joined
 682 2013-05-21 12:31:43 piatek has joined
 683 2013-05-21 12:32:18 piatek has left ()
 684 2013-05-21 12:34:07 GordonG3kko has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 685 2013-05-21 12:34:11 saracen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 686 2013-05-21 12:34:42 saracen has joined
 687 2013-05-21 12:35:05 wallet43 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 688 2013-05-21 12:35:26 iwilcox has joined
 689 2013-05-21 12:36:01 wallet43 has joined
 690 2013-05-21 12:36:10 GordonG3kko has joined
 691 2013-05-21 12:37:11 devDelay has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 692 2013-05-21 12:38:20 mow has left ()
 693 2013-05-21 12:40:39 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 694 2013-05-21 12:42:27 davout has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 695 2013-05-21 12:43:03 theorbtwo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 696 2013-05-21 12:44:04 GordonG3kko has joined
 697 2013-05-21 12:44:06 tyn has joined
 698 2013-05-21 12:44:06 tyn has quit (Excess Flood)
 699 2013-05-21 12:44:15 runeks has joined
 700 2013-05-21 12:44:15 <JyZyXEL> what does it mean when Abe shows input address that is UNKNOWN?
 701 2013-05-21 12:44:21 <BOBSONATOR> whisling to myself...
 702 2013-05-21 12:45:33 <runeks> BlueMatt: Hi. Have you considered enabling ARM builds on your Bitcoin PPA for Ubuntu? It would be nice to have an armhf build of bitcoind to put on low power ARM servers. As far as I can see, your Stable PPA lives up to the requirements: https://dev.launchpad.net/CommunityARMBuilds
 703 2013-05-21 12:46:10 <runeks> JyZyXEL: Coin generation transaction?
 704 2013-05-21 12:47:04 <JyZyXEL> generation from adress unknown to address unknown
 705 2013-05-21 12:48:55 Aurigae has joined
 706 2013-05-21 12:48:58 devDelay has joined
 707 2013-05-21 12:49:46 <Aurigae> http://blockchain.info/ip-log  <---- isnt that an epic target list? LOL  *~pentesters~*
 708 2013-05-21 12:50:05 piatek has joined
 709 2013-05-21 12:50:37 <Aurigae> 50% win os machines, looks like home connections to me
 710 2013-05-21 12:51:24 iwilcox_ has joined
 711 2013-05-21 12:52:34 iwilcox has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 712 2013-05-21 12:54:36 devDelay has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 713 2013-05-21 12:55:37 Lexa has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 714 2013-05-21 12:56:17 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 715 2013-05-21 12:56:46 iwilcox_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 716 2013-05-21 12:58:11 iwilcox_ has joined
 717 2013-05-21 12:58:25 BTCOxygen has joined
 718 2013-05-21 12:59:36 mrkent has joined
 719 2013-05-21 12:59:36 mrkent has quit (Changing host)
 720 2013-05-21 12:59:36 mrkent has joined
 721 2013-05-21 12:59:43 BTCOxygen has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
 722 2013-05-21 13:01:48 devDelay has joined
 723 2013-05-21 13:02:49 stochasm has joined
 724 2013-05-21 13:03:07 porquilho has joined
 725 2013-05-21 13:03:07 wallet43 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 726 2013-05-21 13:03:16 wallet43 has joined
 727 2013-05-21 13:03:41 wallet431 has joined
 728 2013-05-21 13:04:32 theorbtwo has joined
 729 2013-05-21 13:06:40 devDelay has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 730 2013-05-21 13:07:25 fanquake has joined
 731 2013-05-21 13:07:58 wallet43 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 732 2013-05-21 13:08:57 viperhr1 has joined
 733 2013-05-21 13:09:39 iwilcox_ is now known as iwilcox
 734 2013-05-21 13:13:05 piatek has quit ()
 735 2013-05-21 13:13:17 MobiusL has joined
 736 2013-05-21 13:13:56 BTCOxygen has joined
 737 2013-05-21 13:14:04 dvide has joined
 738 2013-05-21 13:14:58 BTCOxygen has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
 739 2013-05-21 13:15:44 BTCOxygen has joined
 740 2013-05-21 13:17:45 <BlueMatt> runeks: see: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2111
 741 2013-05-21 13:17:59 <BlueMatt> runeks: so, no because its known to have some issues
 742 2013-05-21 13:18:35 <BlueMatt> admittedly it hasnt been tested in a while, but unless someone steps up and confirms that it doesnt crash after a few weeks of reasonable load, I'm not gonna add it
 743 2013-05-21 13:19:41 bitWorks has joined
 744 2013-05-21 13:19:59 <runeks> BlueMatt: Bummer. I'm preparing to build bitcoind for my Raspberry Pi now. Building the cross compilation tools currently. I'm not even sure it has the processing power to handle it, but I'm going to try. Will report back if I experience any issues.
 745 2013-05-21 13:20:10 wallet431 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 746 2013-05-21 13:24:14 bitWorks has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 747 2013-05-21 13:25:34 Tritonio has joined
 748 2013-05-21 13:30:00 saulimus has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 749 2013-05-21 13:33:46 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
 750 2013-05-21 13:36:23 tsche has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 751 2013-05-21 13:43:14 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
 752 2013-05-21 13:43:47 MobiusL has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 753 2013-05-21 13:43:52 Tritonio has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 754 2013-05-21 13:45:25 MobiusL has joined
 755 2013-05-21 13:45:27 Thepok has joined
 756 2013-05-21 13:52:04 sacrelege has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 757 2013-05-21 13:52:40 cc_8 has joined
 758 2013-05-21 13:52:40 cc_8 is now known as alphaguru
 759 2013-05-21 13:52:55 tsche has joined
 760 2013-05-21 13:55:10 DBordello has quit (Excess Flood)
 761 2013-05-21 13:55:57 DBordello has joined
 762 2013-05-21 13:56:34 rdymac has joined
 763 2013-05-21 13:57:18 lolcookie__ has joined
 764 2013-05-21 13:57:23 rdymac has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 765 2013-05-21 13:59:02 IceLookLo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 766 2013-05-21 13:59:37 IceLookLo has joined
 767 2013-05-21 13:59:37 jedunnigan has joined
 768 2013-05-21 14:00:49 <BlueMatt> runeks: its entirely possible it has since been fixed
 769 2013-05-21 14:01:16 <runeks> BlueMatt: Let's hope so. It might even be compiler-specific.
 770 2013-05-21 14:01:21 <BlueMatt> runeks: if you can get a node up that is listening and has a lot of connections, please ping me if it is still running after a week or two, and Ill enable the builds on launchpad
 771 2013-05-21 14:01:34 <runeks> BlueMatt: Will do!
 772 2013-05-21 14:02:03 <BlueMatt> (that commit was after running it on an odroid-x ie samsung exynos 44something)
 773 2013-05-21 14:02:49 lolcookie__ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 774 2013-05-21 14:03:10 lolcookie__ has joined
 775 2013-05-21 14:05:18 t2che has joined
 776 2013-05-21 14:05:49 IceLookLo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 777 2013-05-21 14:07:56 tsche has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 778 2013-05-21 14:08:25 <BlueMatt> s/commit/comment/
 779 2013-05-21 14:08:42 tsche has joined
 780 2013-05-21 14:09:09 cjsw3 has joined
 781 2013-05-21 14:09:36 IceLookLo has joined
 782 2013-05-21 14:10:02 t2che has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 783 2013-05-21 14:11:38 lolcookie__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 784 2013-05-21 14:11:51 sanchaz has joined
 785 2013-05-21 14:11:51 sanchaz has quit (Changing host)
 786 2013-05-21 14:11:51 sanchaz has joined
 787 2013-05-21 14:14:58 Chuky has quit (Quit: • IRcap • 8.71 •)
 788 2013-05-21 14:16:42 chorao has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 789 2013-05-21 14:17:14 gfinn has joined
 790 2013-05-21 14:21:26 metabyte has joined
 791 2013-05-21 14:22:08 rushed has joined
 792 2013-05-21 14:22:37 k00shi has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 793 2013-05-21 14:23:06 saulimus has joined
 794 2013-05-21 14:23:26 Namworld has joined
 795 2013-05-21 14:27:04 dansmith_btc has joined
 796 2013-05-21 14:27:05 dansmith_btc has quit (Changing host)
 797 2013-05-21 14:27:05 dansmith_btc has joined
 798 2013-05-21 14:35:17 tonikt has joined
 799 2013-05-21 14:38:22 winterblack has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 800 2013-05-21 14:38:31 nethershaw has joined
 801 2013-05-21 14:39:45 macboz has joined
 802 2013-05-21 14:40:55 malaimo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 803 2013-05-21 14:41:18 dansmith_btc has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 804 2013-05-21 14:42:48 sacrelege has joined
 805 2013-05-21 14:43:07 malaimo has joined
 806 2013-05-21 14:45:29 michagogo has joined
 807 2013-05-21 14:46:33 rushed has quit (Quit: rushed)
 808 2013-05-21 14:49:38 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 809 2013-05-21 14:50:42 Bohren has joined
 810 2013-05-21 14:53:43 tsche has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 811 2013-05-21 14:53:58 chorao has joined
 812 2013-05-21 14:53:58 chorao has quit (Changing host)
 813 2013-05-21 14:53:58 chorao has joined
 814 2013-05-21 14:54:43 macboz has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 815 2013-05-21 14:54:48 macboz_ has joined
 816 2013-05-21 14:54:54 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
 817 2013-05-21 14:55:03 tsche has joined
 818 2013-05-21 14:55:44 gjj has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 819 2013-05-21 14:55:59 Luke-Jr has quit (Excess Flood)
 820 2013-05-21 14:56:11 gjj has joined
 821 2013-05-21 14:56:30 Luke-Jr has joined
 822 2013-05-21 14:58:16 fanquake has left ()
 823 2013-05-21 14:59:17 reefry has joined
 824 2013-05-21 14:59:19 jonass has joined
 825 2013-05-21 15:03:22 devDelay_ has joined
 826 2013-05-21 15:03:46 cads has joined
 827 2013-05-21 15:08:22 devDelay_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 828 2013-05-21 15:10:01 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 829 2013-05-21 15:11:30 GordonG3kko has joined
 830 2013-05-21 15:12:29 <B0g4r7_> How can I spend from a specific input using bitcoin-qt?
 831 2013-05-21 15:13:49 whiterabbit has joined
 832 2013-05-21 15:14:09 <MC1984> raw transaction?
 833 2013-05-21 15:14:17 <MC1984> or, i dont think you actually can?
 834 2013-05-21 15:14:31 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 835 2013-05-21 15:14:35 whiterabbit is now known as wrabbit
 836 2013-05-21 15:15:55 iwilcox has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 837 2013-05-21 15:16:28 iwilcox has joined
 838 2013-05-21 15:16:49 <michagogo> B0g4r7_: AFAIK, the only way to do that is by messing with the raw transactions
 839 2013-05-21 15:16:58 <michagogo> Which is very, very important to get right
 840 2013-05-21 15:17:12 <michagogo> Otherwise you'll find yourself paying a very large transaction fee
 841 2013-05-21 15:18:05 emryss has joined
 842 2013-05-21 15:18:46 dvide has quit ()
 843 2013-05-21 15:19:05 mE\Ta has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 844 2013-05-21 15:21:04 jedunnigan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 845 2013-05-21 15:23:50 <TheSeven> fun fact of the day: BTC difficulty almost equals the number of BTC in existence :)
 846 2013-05-21 15:25:17 dvide has joined
 847 2013-05-21 15:25:19 tsche has quit ()
 848 2013-05-21 15:26:07 <sipa> ;;diff
 849 2013-05-21 15:26:08 <gribble> 1.1187257461360792E7
 850 2013-05-21 15:28:53 rushed has joined
 851 2013-05-21 15:29:13 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 852 2013-05-21 15:30:49 ovidiusoft has joined
 853 2013-05-21 15:31:13 Michail1_ is now known as Michail1
 854 2013-05-21 15:31:44 davout has joined
 855 2013-05-21 15:32:36 <runeks> BlueMatt: How did you figure out building bitcoind for ARM? I'm stuck because my toolchain lacks the boost libraries. I'm following this guide: http://www.bootc.net/archives/2012/05/26/how-to-build-a-cross-compiler-for-your-raspberry-pi/
 856 2013-05-21 15:34:48 * lupine imagines an endianness bug resulting in ALL THE MONEY
 857 2013-05-21 15:35:55 <runeks> lupine: Are you talking about https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2111 ?
 858 2013-05-21 15:36:17 ovidiusoft has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 859 2013-05-21 15:36:24 <lupine> no, armle is little-endian too
 860 2013-05-21 15:36:40 <BlueMatt> runeks: I installed gcc on the device itself and built on there...though my device has 1g of memory so its possible...
 861 2013-05-21 15:36:45 <BlueMatt> (and multiple cores)
 862 2013-05-21 15:37:02 Truncatem has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 863 2013-05-21 15:37:05 <runeks> Oh, right. That probably won't work on the Pi. I needed an extra swap file just to build Armory.
 864 2013-05-21 15:37:22 <runeks> And now I know why I steered clear of cross compilation.
 865 2013-05-21 15:37:57 <BlueMatt> meh, I dunno why xcompilation would be so hard
 866 2013-05-21 15:37:59 ovidiusoft has joined
 867 2013-05-21 15:38:06 <BlueMatt> Ive never done it for arm, but I have for win32 and for atmel
 868 2013-05-21 15:38:43 <lupine> once you've got the toolchain sorted, it's fine
 869 2013-05-21 15:38:47 macboz_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 870 2013-05-21 15:38:47 PatrikR has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 871 2013-05-21 15:38:53 Eliel has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 872 2013-05-21 15:38:53 <runeks> Well as far as I can tell I need to build Boost, and all the other libraries that bitcoind depends on. So that at least makes it a lot more complicated than just apt-get'ing the dependencies
 873 2013-05-21 15:39:00 macboz has joined
 874 2013-05-21 15:39:06 tsche has joined
 875 2013-05-21 15:39:23 <BlueMatt> ahh, yes, all the deps will probably suck
 876 2013-05-21 15:39:28 <BlueMatt> well, good luck :p
 877 2013-05-21 15:39:32 * lupine had one for his phone, don't know about rpi though
 878 2013-05-21 15:40:07 <lupine> http://www.bootc.net/archives/2012/05/26/how-to-build-a-cross-compiler-for-your-raspberry-pi/
 879 2013-05-21 15:40:14 <TheSeven> runeks: you should be able to apt-get the libboost-dev package though?
 880 2013-05-21 15:40:22 <lupine> I vaguely know the dude, it probably works
 881 2013-05-21 15:40:47 Eliel has joined
 882 2013-05-21 15:40:54 <TheSeven> (on the target device, then implant it into the crosscompliation environment)
 883 2013-05-21 15:41:00 michagogo_ has joined
 884 2013-05-21 15:41:06 <runeks> TheSeven: Yes I am, but my toolchain won't look in /usr/include, it has its own includes. And when I include /usr/include manually I get a strange error, and a Google search told me this was because it was using x86 includes for the ARM target.
 885 2013-05-21 15:41:16 <runeks> TheSeven: Aaah!
 886 2013-05-21 15:41:26 <runeks> That sounds like a plan.
 887 2013-05-21 15:41:35 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 888 2013-05-21 15:41:54 t2che has joined
 889 2013-05-21 15:42:07 <runeks> Although my cross compile environment has write access turned off in its /include directories, which I take as a hint not to mess with it.
 890 2013-05-21 15:42:20 <Aurigae> Why is bitclockers 1st ranking for bitcoin pool on google when its a scammer pool, why does fkin nobody care they scam people
 891 2013-05-21 15:42:41 <lupine> try #google
 892 2013-05-21 15:42:41 michagogo__ has joined
 893 2013-05-21 15:42:42 <Aurigae> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Comparison_of_mining_pools
 894 2013-05-21 15:42:45 michagogo_ has quit (Disconnected by services)
 895 2013-05-21 15:42:45 michagogo has quit (Killed (kornbluth.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
 896 2013-05-21 15:42:45 michagogo__ is now known as michagogo
 897 2013-05-21 15:42:45 drizztbsd has joined
 898 2013-05-21 15:42:49 <Aurigae> they are even still listed
 899 2013-05-21 15:42:50 <drizztbsd> hi, is it viable? http://jheusser.github.io/2013/02/03/satcoin.html
 900 2013-05-21 15:42:52 <Aurigae> SRSLY
 901 2013-05-21 15:42:57 <lupine> :p
 902 2013-05-21 15:43:11 <TheSeven> runeks: if you want to, I can also build some binarys on an ARM device for you
 903 2013-05-21 15:43:17 <TheSeven> but that would be armhf...
 904 2013-05-21 15:43:33 Corim has joined
 905 2013-05-21 15:43:44 <runeks> TheSeven: I might need that. But I will try first myself. Thanks.
 906 2013-05-21 15:43:47 jonass has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 907 2013-05-21 15:44:11 <Aurigae> lol, bitcoin is doomed to fail with so much scam, ponie and disinformation
 908 2013-05-21 15:44:21 <lupine> \o/
 909 2013-05-21 15:44:24 <Aurigae> BITCLOCKERS IS A SCAM, REMOVE IT FROM LISTINGS
 910 2013-05-21 15:44:30 <Aurigae> cunts
 911 2013-05-21 15:44:40 <Aurigae> they owe me thousands
 912 2013-05-21 15:44:56 <TheSeven> Aurigae: it's a wiki...
 913 2013-05-21 15:45:40 tsche has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 914 2013-05-21 15:46:13 <Aurigae> Srsly, nif this is not something to take action, what is, new users get sucked in on a scamemr pool that started scamming months ago
 915 2013-05-21 15:46:54 <Aurigae> ill ty to pwn them but im a bad hacker :P
 916 2013-05-21 15:47:03 <Aurigae> lol
 917 2013-05-21 15:47:07 <TheSeven> Aurigae: well, what about just removing them from the list?
 918 2013-05-21 15:47:12 <drizztbsd> I'll open scammerpool.com
 919 2013-05-21 15:47:43 <Aurigae> well, im calm now but its annoying, indeed
 920 2013-05-21 15:48:46 bugg has joined
 921 2013-05-21 15:49:00 bugg is now known as _KGBot_
 922 2013-05-21 15:49:05 mrkent has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 923 2013-05-21 15:49:41 <_KGBot_> Greetings..
 924 2013-05-21 15:49:59 abrkn has quit ()
 925 2013-05-21 15:51:13 gjj_ has joined
 926 2013-05-21 15:52:07 random_cat has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 927 2013-05-21 15:52:07 darkee has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 928 2013-05-21 15:52:42 darkee has joined
 929 2013-05-21 15:53:42 gigavps has joined
 930 2013-05-21 15:54:07 random_cat has joined
 931 2013-05-21 15:54:24 gjj has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 932 2013-05-21 15:54:42 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
 933 2013-05-21 15:54:56 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (Changing host)
 934 2013-05-21 15:54:56 PiZZaMaN2K has joined
 935 2013-05-21 15:56:04 allban has joined
 936 2013-05-21 15:56:07 <gigavps> i am watching bitcoind logs today and am seeing a good deal of
 937 2013-05-21 15:56:09 <gigavps> 2013-05-21 15:32:12 CTxMemPool::accept() : accepted db3b4bdd7d (poolsz 3774)
 938 2013-05-21 15:56:09 <gigavps> 2013-05-21 15:32:12 ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : inputs already spent
 939 2013-05-21 15:56:20 <gigavps> well, the second line
 940 2013-05-21 15:56:38 <gigavps> are double spend attempts like this a usual occurence?
 941 2013-05-21 15:57:09 BOBSONATOR has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 942 2013-05-21 15:57:37 <BlueMatt> drizztbsd: looks interesting...on a cpu looks like the author claims the results are good (and I could envision it being possible that you could at least improve a bit on brute force, though obviously not much if we assume sha256 is secure), on a gpu maybe not quite as much as Im not sure if sat algorithms are very well optimized for gpus atm, and on an asic I doubt it, since the memory requirements would in theory be significantly more
 943 2013-05-21 15:57:40 reefry has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 944 2013-05-21 15:57:42 MoALTz_ is now known as MoALTz
 945 2013-05-21 15:57:48 <_KGBot_> So we're trying to get a pool in the air, what do we do, where do we go pls..
 946 2013-05-21 15:58:09 <MC1984> gigavps we worked this out yesterday
 947 2013-05-21 15:58:21 <MC1984> its the 5430 rule
 948 2013-05-21 15:58:30 <MC1984> and the canon sigs rul
 949 2013-05-21 15:58:38 * gigavps watches the airplane fly over his head
 950 2013-05-21 15:58:41 <Aurigae> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Comparison_of_mining_pools   <---- how can we get bitclockers removed there because of SCAM?
 951 2013-05-21 15:59:04 <Aurigae> lot newbs get sucked in that pool
 952 2013-05-21 15:59:10 <Aurigae> very motivational
 953 2013-05-21 15:59:35 <drizztbsd> why do you think it's a scam?
 954 2013-05-21 15:59:38 <_KGBot_> Aurigae: We mean real help..
 955 2013-05-21 15:59:43 <MC1984> gigavps pople sending txns with unconfirmed dust as inputs which will never be confirmed
 956 2013-05-21 15:59:48 <Aurigae> because they owe me lots of coins, others reported sam too
 957 2013-05-21 16:00:03 <gigavps> MC1984 ahhh
 958 2013-05-21 16:00:05 <gigavps> ic
 959 2013-05-21 16:00:29 <gigavps> are they trying to fill up ppls memory pools?
 960 2013-05-21 16:00:38 <gigavps> make bitcoind run out of memory?
 961 2013-05-21 16:00:39 <MC1984> dunno
 962 2013-05-21 16:00:43 <MC1984> is such a thing even possible
 963 2013-05-21 16:00:43 <Aurigae> ITS about bitcoin reputation guys, on a major site a scam pool is listed, its even ranking tops in google, maybe because of the backlinks
 964 2013-05-21 16:00:49 nsillik has joined
 965 2013-05-21 16:00:56 <_KGBot_> can't believe it.. fighting over coins already.. i knew it.. phoney as #FCUK..
 966 2013-05-21 16:01:07 <MC1984> the silly battery staple spam gave it a good go
 967 2013-05-21 16:01:09 <sipa> ?
 968 2013-05-21 16:01:29 <Aurigae> well, if nobody cares ill setup a pool in no time, get it listed and enjoy free miners
 969 2013-05-21 16:01:40 <Aurigae> ... if that how it goes
 970 2013-05-21 16:01:45 <sipa> Aurigae: it's a wiki
 971 2013-05-21 16:01:49 <sipa> you can edit it
 972 2013-05-21 16:02:10 <sipa> that also means one shouldn't put too much trust in it
 973 2013-05-21 16:02:24 <_KGBot_> so where's my !help pls..
 974 2013-05-21 16:03:24 <sipa> _KGBot_: what do you need help with?
 975 2013-05-21 16:04:08 <_KGBot_> sipa: Yes pls.. To get a pool started pls..
 976 2013-05-21 16:04:14 <MC1984> i cant beleive bitcoin-support wasnt a thing
 977 2013-05-21 16:04:21 <MC1984> well it is now
 978 2013-05-21 16:04:33 <sipa> "hi, i want to start building a car. how do i start"
 979 2013-05-21 16:04:46 <sipa> no offence, but do your homework
 980 2013-05-21 16:04:47 Bohren has joined
 981 2013-05-21 16:04:48 <MC1984> 4 wheels
 982 2013-05-21 16:04:49 <MC1984> lol
 983 2013-05-21 16:04:59 <_KGBot_> steering wheel..
 984 2013-05-21 16:05:06 <_KGBot_> engine..
 985 2013-05-21 16:05:16 <sipa> people here will answer specific technical questions anytime yoyu like
 986 2013-05-21 16:05:25 <_KGBot_> u r getting da picture..
 987 2013-05-21 16:05:36 <MC1984> .....
 988 2013-05-21 16:06:14 <_KGBot_> 2 busy earning $hitloads of money while they have nothing better to do i guess..
 989 2013-05-21 16:06:33 <gonffen> hey man
 990 2013-05-21 16:06:36 rdymac has joined
 991 2013-05-21 16:06:38 <gonffen> you could calm down
 992 2013-05-21 16:06:42 <MC1984> hell are you on about
 993 2013-05-21 16:07:00 <_KGBot_> we just need some !help pls..
 994 2013-05-21 16:07:12 <sipa> then ask what you need to know
 995 2013-05-21 16:07:22 <sipa> but don't ask to do your work
 996 2013-05-21 16:07:23 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 997 2013-05-21 16:07:43 <_KGBot_> sipa: we're not at work..
 998 2013-05-21 16:08:15 <sipa> ...
 999 2013-05-21 16:08:30 <MC1984> a ruseman it seems
1000 2013-05-21 16:08:37 <TheSeven> Aurigae: then just go ahead and remove it? it's a wiki...
1001 2013-05-21 16:08:42 <_KGBot_> sipa: at the same time earning money can be classified as work right..
1002 2013-05-21 16:08:53 <sipa> _KGBot_: yes
1003 2013-05-21 16:09:00 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1004 2013-05-21 16:09:15 <_KGBot_> sipa: ThanQ..
1005 2013-05-21 16:09:44 <sipa> this channel is about bitcoin network/protocol/clients development mostly (and tons of offtopic things)
1006 2013-05-21 16:09:54 * BlueMatt wonders if its a bot designed to suck dev time...
1007 2013-05-21 16:10:03 <_KGBot_> ok, that's what we need..
1008 2013-05-21 16:10:04 sacrelege has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1009 2013-05-21 16:10:04 <sipa> so if you have specific technical questions about how bitcoin works, feel free
1010 2013-05-21 16:10:27 <sipa> there's #bitcoin-mining too
1011 2013-05-21 16:10:35 <sipa> which is more focussed on mining
1012 2013-05-21 16:10:49 <_KGBot_> even the KGB is having probs with finance.. ;-)
1013 2013-05-21 16:10:53 <sipa> but i doubt anyone likes holding someone's hand to build a pool
1014 2013-05-21 16:11:04 <_KGBot_> & needs to be creative..
1015 2013-05-21 16:11:38 * TheSeven wonders if he should just throw some untested pool server software in _KGBot_'s direction
1016 2013-05-21 16:11:45 <BlueMatt> sipa: are you still in .us?
1017 2013-05-21 16:11:55 <sipa> BlueMatt: yes, until the 31st
1018 2013-05-21 16:11:56 <Aurigae> _KGBot, whats your goal, i did not read your previous question
1019 2013-05-21 16:12:46 Liquid3xB has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1020 2013-05-21 16:13:00 <_KGBot_> goal is 2 FCUK goat & get bitcoin pool up & running..
1021 2013-05-21 16:13:29 <Aurigae> the only opensource pool with steady development im aware of is eloipool
1022 2013-05-21 16:13:41 <Aurigae> developed by luke-jr
1023 2013-05-21 16:13:46 <Aurigae> #eligius
1024 2013-05-21 16:14:19 <Aurigae> for frontend, the pymysql component is broken, so only postgres available for database shareloggin as im aware
1025 2013-05-21 16:14:31 paracyst has joined
1026 2013-05-21 16:14:54 <Aurigae> the other option ecoinpool had some major glitches and need lot work as i know
1027 2013-05-21 16:15:05 <MC1984> hes gone bro
1028 2013-05-21 16:15:07 <MC1984> hes gone
1029 2013-05-21 16:15:15 <Aurigae> oops
1030 2013-05-21 16:15:16 <MC1984> its over
1031 2013-05-21 16:15:21 <Aurigae> lol
1032 2013-05-21 16:15:40 <Aurigae> this approach was doomed anyway :P
1033 2013-05-21 16:16:47 * TheSeven also build an experimental stratum pool software a few weeks ago
1034 2013-05-21 16:16:53 <TheSeven> built*
1035 2013-05-21 16:17:55 <Aurigae> you got a git commit?
1036 2013-05-21 16:18:06 mariorz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1037 2013-05-21 16:18:12 allban has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1038 2013-05-21 16:18:20 Diapolis has joined
1039 2013-05-21 16:18:31 <TheSeven> nope, not officially released yet
1040 2013-05-21 16:20:10 _KGBot_ has joined
1041 2013-05-21 16:20:42 abrkn has joined
1042 2013-05-21 16:21:25 davout has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1043 2013-05-21 16:22:37 rdymac has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1044 2013-05-21 16:22:47 ovidiusoft has quit (Quit: leaving)
1045 2013-05-21 16:23:42 phebus has joined
1046 2013-05-21 16:23:48 gst has joined
1047 2013-05-21 16:24:28 random_cat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1048 2013-05-21 16:24:55 altamic has quit (Quit: altamic)
1049 2013-05-21 16:25:43 ralphtheninja has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1050 2013-05-21 16:26:11 random_cat has joined
1051 2013-05-21 16:26:54 NimeshNeema has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1052 2013-05-21 16:27:22 <drizztbsd> Milano,pm: infermità mentale per Adam Kabobo
1053 2013-05-21 16:27:24 <drizztbsd> lol?
1054 2013-05-21 16:28:19 <MC1984> progress=0.995341
1055 2013-05-21 16:28:21 <MC1984> whats that
1056 2013-05-21 16:28:34 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1057 2013-05-21 16:30:02 xorgate has quit ()
1058 2013-05-21 16:30:40 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1059 2013-05-21 16:31:08 <ProfMac> I'm running the current bitcoin-qt on ubuntu 12.04.  In Win XP, there is a secondary menu bar (Files, etc).  In Ubuntu, sometimes this stuff has moved to a tiny bitcoin icon, sometimes it doesn't, but there is a larger icon in the 2D menu.  Does anyone have a clue how to make this menu show up somewhere?
1060 2013-05-21 16:31:49 <ProfMac> or what channel to ask this question in?
1061 2013-05-21 16:32:07 <BlueMatt> github down for anyone else?
1062 2013-05-21 16:32:28 taha has joined
1063 2013-05-21 16:32:36 <TheSeven> BlueMatt: worksforme
1064 2013-05-21 16:32:41 GordonG3kko has joined
1065 2013-05-21 16:32:48 allban has joined
1066 2013-05-21 16:32:55 chmod755 has joined
1067 2013-05-21 16:33:15 <BlueMatt> hmm, well their status page indicates issues...https://status.github.com/
1068 2013-05-21 16:33:44 <TheSeven> ProfMac: I guess you're talking about unity? do you get a menu in the upper bar if you touch it with the mouse? what happens if you just press the alt key?
1069 2013-05-21 16:34:16 _KGBot_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1070 2013-05-21 16:34:56 phebus has quit (Quit: POKE 1,0)
1071 2013-05-21 16:35:39 <runeks> So is libdb only used for the wallet? libdb5.1 is the only version that is available on the Debian distribution for the Raspberry Pi. The build instructions say to use 4.8, but is it ok to build with 5.1 when I'm not going to be using the wallet?
1072 2013-05-21 16:37:05 <BlueMatt> yes
1073 2013-05-21 16:37:28 <BlueMatt> you can still use the wallet, you will just be forced to always use a 5.1-based build for it (which means none of the official binaries)
1074 2013-05-21 16:37:29 phebus has joined
1075 2013-05-21 16:37:56 <runeks> Cool. Glad I don't have to build libdb
1076 2013-05-21 16:37:57 * BlueMatt votes for a switch to 5.1 if no one is actually working on a new wallet format on-disk
1077 2013-05-21 16:38:04 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1078 2013-05-21 16:38:12 <runeks> You could use Armory's binary format...
1079 2013-05-21 16:38:20 <runeks> doesn't require any external DB AFAIK
1080 2013-05-21 16:38:25 <BlueMatt> though ofc I remember the 4.8 switch caused minor problems...
1081 2013-05-21 16:38:35 <BlueMatt> runeks: keeping it compatible would be...difficult
1082 2013-05-21 16:38:44 <runeks> True...
1083 2013-05-21 16:39:48 random_cat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1084 2013-05-21 16:41:16 devDelay has joined
1085 2013-05-21 16:41:58 brson has joined
1086 2013-05-21 16:42:59 <donpdonp> i just did 'backupwallet somename' and somename* is not in ~/.bitcoin nor in the current directory. where should I look?
1087 2013-05-21 16:43:15 <BlueMatt> pwd
1088 2013-05-21 16:43:20 <BlueMatt> or pwd of bitcoin process
1089 2013-05-21 16:43:22 _KGBot_ has joined
1090 2013-05-21 16:43:50 <helo> BlueMatt: i think if the wallet was originally created with 4.8, and it is used with 5.1 some, the 4.8 bitcoind will still work
1091 2013-05-21 16:43:57 xorgate has joined
1092 2013-05-21 16:44:10 <donpdonp> BlueMatt: ah, lsof found the cwd of bitcoind. thats where it was thx
1093 2013-05-21 16:44:10 <BlueMatt> no
1094 2013-05-21 16:44:28 <BlueMatt> helo: once you open it with 5.1, it should be upgraded to 5.1 format and then...poof
1095 2013-05-21 16:44:46 <helo> hmmm... i must have not done what i think i had done
1096 2013-05-21 16:45:18 rushed has quit (Quit: rushed)
1097 2013-05-21 16:46:50 random_cat has joined
1098 2013-05-21 16:46:53 GordonG3kko has joined
1099 2013-05-21 16:47:17 <_KGBot_> helo: !hello
1100 2013-05-21 16:49:12 <ProfMac> TheSeven: the alt key does nothing.  The bitcoin-qt window has the bitcoin-wallet title bar, and the overview, send coins, receive coins ... menu bar.  Touching anywhere near here does not produce the 2nd window.
1101 2013-05-21 16:49:53 <TheSeven> "2nd window"?
1102 2013-05-21 16:50:11 <TheSeven> I meant touching the bar at the top of your screen, not the window title bar
1103 2013-05-21 16:50:16 rdymac has joined
1104 2013-05-21 16:50:21 rdymac has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1105 2013-05-21 16:50:59 savetheinternet has joined
1106 2013-05-21 16:51:06 <ProfMac> TheSeven: duh.  That works great.  Thanks.
1107 2013-05-21 16:51:22 bitexchanger has joined
1108 2013-05-21 16:51:22 <TheSeven> like with any other application on the unity desktop :)
1109 2013-05-21 16:51:45 <MC1984> progress?
1110 2013-05-21 16:51:56 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1111 2013-05-21 16:52:12 <bitexchanger> Hey guys... one quick question.. I haven't opened my bitcoin-qt in over 3 months.. so I didn't do the necessary update.. What is the best way for me to make sure I don't mess anything up? As long as I update the client before I start the program will I be okay?
1112 2013-05-21 16:52:26 <BlueMatt> yes
1113 2013-05-21 16:52:28 <ProfMac> TheSeven: I've been running ubuntu in a virtual box for a few years.  This week I'm building a new machine where it is the host, and my windows installs are in the guest vms.  I'm fairly disoriented...
1114 2013-05-21 16:52:51 <bitexchanger> BlueMatt: Were you speaking to me?
1115 2013-05-21 16:52:56 <BlueMatt> yes
1116 2013-05-21 16:53:13 <bitexchanger> ty
1117 2013-05-21 16:53:40 <MC1984> BlueMatt wouldnt a wallet file from say 2 ish years ago still work ok in the latest builds
1118 2013-05-21 16:53:47 <BlueMatt> sipa: does secp256k1 not let you go from pubkey->privkey?
1119 2013-05-21 16:53:59 <BlueMatt> MC1984: yes, afaik for any release it should still work
1120 2013-05-21 16:54:12 <BlueMatt> well, there are some strange cases with like rcs, but...
1121 2013-05-21 16:54:21 <MC1984> so the wallet code hasnt been changed in a long time
1122 2013-05-21 16:54:25 <BlueMatt> oh, it has
1123 2013-05-21 16:54:34 <BlueMatt> but it knows how to upgrade, and the on-disk format hasnt significantly
1124 2013-05-21 16:55:01 <MC1984> so backwards compatible and can convert your wallet automatically
1125 2013-05-21 16:55:42 <MC1984> is it a good idea to import a wallet every now and again and let it do that, then back it up away again
1126 2013-05-21 16:55:57 <sipa> BlueMatt: ...?
1127 2013-05-21 16:56:26 <BlueMatt> sipa: I was under the impression libsecp256k1 was designed to replace openssl, but I dont see a method to get pubkey given privkey
1128 2013-05-21 16:56:52 <sipa> BlueMatt: :D
1129 2013-05-21 16:57:01 <sipa> BlueMatt: you asked for pubkey->privkey
1130 2013-05-21 16:57:05 <sipa> BlueMatt: there's a functon for that
1131 2013-05-21 16:57:05 <BlueMatt> ahh
1132 2013-05-21 16:57:10 <BlueMatt> well, that would be magical...
1133 2013-05-21 16:57:15 <sipa> BlueMatt: pubkey_create or something like that
1134 2013-05-21 16:57:18 <sipa> BlueMatt: or just very slow :p
1135 2013-05-21 16:57:32 <BlueMatt> I only see pubkey_parse and pubkey_serialize
1136 2013-05-21 16:57:36 <BlueMatt> it should be in ecdsa.h, no?
1137 2013-05-21 16:57:39 GordonG3kko has joined
1138 2013-05-21 16:57:42 taha has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1139 2013-05-21 16:57:54 <sipa> include/secp256k1.h
1140 2013-05-21 16:57:59 <sipa> that's the public interface
1141 2013-05-21 16:58:05 <BlueMatt> ahhh
1142 2013-05-21 16:58:08 * BlueMatt facepalm
1143 2013-05-21 16:58:47 rushed has joined
1144 2013-05-21 16:58:59 mE\Ta has joined
1145 2013-05-21 16:59:44 <TheSeven> ProfMac: tbh, get yourself a sane desktop environment :) (such as gnome3)
1146 2013-05-21 17:01:28 Tantadruj has joined
1147 2013-05-21 17:01:41 Tantadruj has left ()
1148 2013-05-21 17:02:25 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1149 2013-05-21 17:04:22 <_KGBot_> invalid syntaxEEEEE wtf..
1150 2013-05-21 17:05:37 copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1151 2013-05-21 17:05:47 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
1152 2013-05-21 17:06:02 <_KGBot_> this #FCUK'ing thing is just N0T NAUGHT working.. bugger that..
1153 2013-05-21 17:06:07 _KGBot_ is now known as bugg_
1154 2013-05-21 17:06:23 iwilcox_ has joined
1155 2013-05-21 17:06:23 iwilcox_ has quit (Changing host)
1156 2013-05-21 17:06:23 iwilcox_ has joined
1157 2013-05-21 17:06:43 iwilcox has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1158 2013-05-21 17:06:47 nsillik has joined
1159 2013-05-21 17:06:52 bugg_ is now known as [bugg]
1160 2013-05-21 17:07:17 GordonG3kko has joined
1161 2013-05-21 17:08:17 talengix has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1162 2013-05-21 17:08:26 nsillik has quit (Client Quit)
1163 2013-05-21 17:08:32 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1164 2013-05-21 17:09:27 nsillik has joined
1165 2013-05-21 17:10:24 iwilcox_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1166 2013-05-21 17:10:46 iwilcox_ has joined
1167 2013-05-21 17:10:46 iwilcox_ has quit (Changing host)
1168 2013-05-21 17:10:46 iwilcox_ has joined
1169 2013-05-21 17:12:43 phungi is now known as phungus
1170 2013-05-21 17:15:57 iwilcox_ is now known as iwilcox
1171 2013-05-21 17:16:32 kadoban has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1172 2013-05-21 17:17:26 ghash has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1173 2013-05-21 17:17:30 abrkn has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1174 2013-05-21 17:19:01 drizztbsd has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1175 2013-05-21 17:19:05 ghash has joined
1176 2013-05-21 17:19:35 bitafterbit has joined
1177 2013-05-21 17:22:31 michagogo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1178 2013-05-21 17:23:11 BITTEeinBIT has joined
1179 2013-05-21 17:28:26 r0sc0e is now known as Roscoe
1180 2013-05-21 17:29:29 daybyter has joined
1181 2013-05-21 17:30:10 michagogo has joined
1182 2013-05-21 17:31:38 alphaguru has quit ()
1183 2013-05-21 17:32:09 qwertyoruiop has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1184 2013-05-21 17:33:56 qwertyoruiop has joined
1185 2013-05-21 17:34:05 CaptainBlaze has quit (Quit: Peace and love peeps.)
1186 2013-05-21 17:34:15 k00shi has joined
1187 2013-05-21 17:35:22 Aurigae has left ()
1188 2013-05-21 17:35:26 Aurigae has joined
1189 2013-05-21 17:37:09 ralphtheninja has joined
1190 2013-05-21 17:37:35 PiZZaMaN2K is now known as PiZZaMaN2K|away
1191 2013-05-21 17:38:25 slush_web has joined
1192 2013-05-21 17:40:39 donpdonp has quit (Changing host)
1193 2013-05-21 17:40:39 donpdonp has joined
1194 2013-05-21 17:41:44 realazthat is now known as trolzies
1195 2013-05-21 17:45:01 Roscoe has quit ()
1196 2013-05-21 17:45:19 r0sc0e has joined
1197 2013-05-21 17:46:01 lodse has joined
1198 2013-05-21 17:46:05 lodse has left ()
1199 2013-05-21 17:46:12 lodse has joined
1200 2013-05-21 17:46:23 CH_ has joined
1201 2013-05-21 17:49:11 paracyst has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1202 2013-05-21 17:50:02 andytoshi has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0)
1203 2013-05-21 17:50:10 IanCormac has joined
1204 2013-05-21 17:50:19 Pinion has joined
1205 2013-05-21 17:50:43 Pinion is now known as Guest85715
1206 2013-05-21 17:50:58 kadoban has joined
1207 2013-05-21 17:51:03 nsh has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1208 2013-05-21 17:56:05 [bugg] has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1209 2013-05-21 17:56:22 paracyst has joined
1210 2013-05-21 17:56:33 gjj_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1211 2013-05-21 18:01:39 caedes has joined
1212 2013-05-21 18:01:39 caedes has quit (Changing host)
1213 2013-05-21 18:01:39 caedes has joined
1214 2013-05-21 18:03:05 nethershaw has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1215 2013-05-21 18:05:09 nethershaw has joined
1216 2013-05-21 18:05:35 epscy has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.0)
1217 2013-05-21 18:06:00 winterblack has joined
1218 2013-05-21 18:06:26 nethershaw has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1219 2013-05-21 18:07:00 Bjander has joined
1220 2013-05-21 18:08:38 nsh has joined
1221 2013-05-21 18:08:57 abrkn has joined
1222 2013-05-21 18:10:43 abrkn has quit (Client Quit)
1223 2013-05-21 18:11:20 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1224 2013-05-21 18:11:27 Bjander has joined
1225 2013-05-21 18:11:44 copumpkin has joined
1226 2013-05-21 18:12:44 root2_ is now known as root2
1227 2013-05-21 18:13:22 cads has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1228 2013-05-21 18:14:32 CH_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1229 2013-05-21 18:15:01 mariorz has joined
1230 2013-05-21 18:16:03 bitexchanger has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1231 2013-05-21 18:18:24 wrabbit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1232 2013-05-21 18:18:44 wrabbit has joined
1233 2013-05-21 18:20:47 gst has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1234 2013-05-21 18:21:17 gst has joined
1235 2013-05-21 18:21:39 nethershaw has joined
1236 2013-05-21 18:21:46 da2ce7 has joined
1237 2013-05-21 18:22:08 duSn has joined
1238 2013-05-21 18:24:05 NimeshNeema has joined
1239 2013-05-21 18:24:36 da2ce7_d has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1240 2013-05-21 18:25:37 winterblack has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1241 2013-05-21 18:26:20 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1242 2013-05-21 18:26:27 Bjander has joined
1243 2013-05-21 18:27:16 twmz_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1244 2013-05-21 18:27:54 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1245 2013-05-21 18:28:03 Liquid3xB has joined
1246 2013-05-21 18:28:07 nethershaw has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1247 2013-05-21 18:28:49 brson has joined
1248 2013-05-21 18:28:51 brson has quit (Client Quit)
1249 2013-05-21 18:29:01 eps has joined
1250 2013-05-21 18:29:04 brson has joined
1251 2013-05-21 18:30:50 bitexchanger has joined
1252 2013-05-21 18:31:21 <bitexchanger> Guys... Does anyone else feel sketchy when updating bitcoin software?
1253 2013-05-21 18:31:36 <bitexchanger> I always feel like there will be some malacious code in the new version that nobody noticed
1254 2013-05-21 18:31:43 <bitexchanger> Someone put my mind to ease please :(
1255 2013-05-21 18:32:15 <sipa> bitexchanger: what verson are you updating to?
1256 2013-05-21 18:32:21 <Cusipzzz> that's why i still run v .03.14
1257 2013-05-21 18:32:26 <bitexchanger> 8.1
1258 2013-05-21 18:32:31 <bitexchanger> the newest one
1259 2013-05-21 18:32:35 <gwillen> bitexchanger: if you have a lot of coins, you can limit the potential damage from malicious code by keeping them on a non-network-connected computer
1260 2013-05-21 18:32:37 twmz has joined
1261 2013-05-21 18:32:51 <sipa> bitexchanger: in case you'r eunaware, we are using a deterministic build process
1262 2013-05-21 18:32:52 <Luke-Jr> Cusipzzz: you can't run 0.3.14 …
1263 2013-05-21 18:32:52 * gigavps uses armory
1264 2013-05-21 18:32:53 <gwillen> although in the case of a malicious client, the help is limited
1265 2013-05-21 18:33:16 <sipa> bitexchanger: that means that our builds are produced in a virtual machine that anyone can run
1266 2013-05-21 18:33:31 <sipa> and it results in binary-identical programs for everyone
1267 2013-05-21 18:33:37 <BlueMatt> bitexchanger: a) the source is pretty safe, many people read every commit that comes down so it would be difficult to sneak something in that isnt incredibly ridiculously clever
1268 2013-05-21 18:33:56 <sipa> there builds are done by several developers, and the results must match before release
1269 2013-05-21 18:33:57 <BlueMatt> bitexchanger: b) the binaries are produced simultaneously by multiple people and only when they all match is a new version reelased
1270 2013-05-21 18:34:05 <Luke-Jr> bitexchanger: multiple people audit every change to the code as well, which is part of why things move slowly sometimes
1271 2013-05-21 18:34:07 owowo has joined
1272 2013-05-21 18:34:19 <bitexchanger> That makes me feel a lot better
1273 2013-05-21 18:34:25 <BlueMatt> (you can check the sigs at https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs)
1274 2013-05-21 18:34:30 <sipa> you can find the signatures here: https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs
1275 2013-05-21 18:34:31 <BlueMatt> (and you should check the sigs from there)
1276 2013-05-21 18:34:40 <bitexchanger> and I downloaded the client from sourceforge from the link on bitcoin.org.. that's okay right ?
1277 2013-05-21 18:34:40 <sipa> BlueMatt beat me
1278 2013-05-21 18:34:59 <BlueMatt> bitexchanger: yes, but if you feel scared, check the sigs from that url
1279 2013-05-21 18:35:04 <phantomcircuit> sipa, seek safety
1280 2013-05-21 18:35:10 <BlueMatt> (sf mirrors have been compromised int he past)
1281 2013-05-21 18:35:17 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
1282 2013-05-21 18:35:34 * BlueMatt -> gone
1283 2013-05-21 18:36:12 trolzies is now known as realzies
1284 2013-05-21 18:36:13 <bitexchanger> .... well that's scaring me agaiin
1285 2013-05-21 18:36:13 <bitexchanger> lol
1286 2013-05-21 18:36:36 <Luke-Jr> bitexchanger: yes,  but if you really want to be secure, you should download the gitian.sigs repo and check that multiple parties signed THAT binary
1287 2013-05-21 18:36:54 <sipa> if you really want to be secure, build from source yourself
1288 2013-05-21 18:36:57 <Luke-Jr> the SF sigs are fine, but the gitian.sigs repo has multiple :
1289 2013-05-21 18:37:02 <bitexchanger> How do i make sure that binary is identical to the one i downloaded?
1290 2013-05-21 18:37:09 <sipa> bitexchanger: check the signatures
1291 2013-05-21 18:37:31 <bitexchanger> Sorry guys, I'm not super super technical so some of this stuff is beyond my knowledge
1292 2013-05-21 18:37:44 <sipa> ok
1293 2013-05-21 18:37:49 <sipa> which OS?
1294 2013-05-21 18:37:54 <bitexchanger> and I couldn't compile it myself, since I don't program I wouldn't even know how to read the code
1295 2013-05-21 18:37:58 <bitexchanger> Windows
1296 2013-05-21 18:38:12 <sipa> the installer should be signed by Gavin's key
1297 2013-05-21 18:38:36 <sipa> you can check that i think, by right clicking on it, and then properties and some tab
1298 2013-05-21 18:38:40 <bitexchanger> I'm not using the installer, I just downloaded the client and swapped out the new bitcon-qt.exe with the old one
1299 2013-05-21 18:40:32 <bitexchanger> There was nothing in properties
1300 2013-05-21 18:40:47 <bitexchanger> When I checked bitcoin-qt.exe
1301 2013-05-21 18:41:18 <sipa> no, only the installer is signed
1302 2013-05-21 18:41:20 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1303 2013-05-21 18:41:27 Bjander has joined
1304 2013-05-21 18:41:36 <sipa> signing the binary itself would break the gitian signatures
1305 2013-05-21 18:42:10 <bitexchanger> ahh
1306 2013-05-21 18:42:46 <bitexchanger> Is there any other way to ensure I have a safe version ?
1307 2013-05-21 18:42:53 <bitexchanger> Since I didn't use the installed
1308 2013-05-21 18:42:55 <bitexchanger> installer*
1309 2013-05-21 18:43:21 <sipa> yes, compute the signature of the binary, and compare with those of SF or on gitian
1310 2013-05-21 18:43:30 <sipa> no idea how to do that in windows though
1311 2013-05-21 18:45:00 IanCormac has quit (Quit: IanCormac)
1312 2013-05-21 18:45:11 <bitexchanger> damn
1313 2013-05-21 18:46:36 cjsw3 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1314 2013-05-21 18:47:09 <bitexchanger> I downloaded it from this mirror: http://downloads.sourceforge.net/project/bitcoin/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.1/bitcoin-0.8.1-win32.zip?r=http%3A%2F%2Fsourceforge.net%2Fprojects%2Fbitcoin%2Ffiles%2FBitcoin%2Fbitcoin-0.8.1%2Fbitcoin-0.8.1-win32.zip%2Fdownload&ts=1369160605&use_mirror=hivelocity
1315 2013-05-21 18:47:26 <bitexchanger> Is there any way you'd be willing to download it and make sure it's safe? I'll tip you 0.5 btc
1316 2013-05-21 18:47:26 phebus has quit (Quit: POKE 1,0)
1317 2013-05-21 18:47:35 <sipa> there's no point
1318 2013-05-21 18:47:57 <sipa> if you're that paranoid about it, you should be aware that they can serve something else to you than to me
1319 2013-05-21 18:48:22 <sipa> and if you're not, someone would likely have already discovered that the binar was faulty
1320 2013-05-21 18:48:31 GordonG3kko has joined
1321 2013-05-21 18:49:09 <bitexchanger> Wouldn't the likelyhood of them serving something different to you than me be extremely unlikely if it was tampered with to begin with ?
1322 2013-05-21 18:49:27 <sipa> yes, but are you paranoid or not?
1323 2013-05-21 18:49:28 <bitexchanger> Because if someone put up a faulty version, wouldn't they want as many people as possible downloading it?
1324 2013-05-21 18:49:33 <sipa> maybe
1325 2013-05-21 18:49:41 <bitexchanger> Yes I am
1326 2013-05-21 18:49:42 <sipa> maybe they also don't want it to be detected :)
1327 2013-05-21 18:50:37 FredEE has joined
1328 2013-05-21 18:50:42 <sipa> and if you're paranoid, you shouldn't trust me to do a verification for you
1329 2013-05-21 18:51:01 <sipa> i may be part of the complot (especially since i have upload rights to SF...)
1330 2013-05-21 18:51:13 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1331 2013-05-21 18:51:19 <bitexchanger> I'm paranoid, but not THAT paranoid :D
1332 2013-05-21 18:51:52 <bitexchanger> I find it super cool that the developers of bitcoin are so accessable :)
1333 2013-05-21 18:52:03 <gwillen> bitexchanger: this is a perennial problem with distributing secure software
1334 2013-05-21 18:52:12 <gwillen> bitexchanger: how do you check the signatures on the GPG distribution? ;-)
1335 2013-05-21 18:52:34 <gwillen> clearly what you needed to do was go to the conference last weekend and get sipa's GPG key fingerprint
1336 2013-05-21 18:52:43 <gwillen> then you could build a chain of trust from you to the binaries.
1337 2013-05-21 18:53:16 <bitexchanger> lol :D
1338 2013-05-21 18:54:05 caedes has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1339 2013-05-21 18:54:23 <bitexchanger> Does nobody upload current blockchains anywhere? Not that I would ever download one but I'm just curiou
1340 2013-05-21 18:54:26 <bitexchanger> curious*
1341 2013-05-21 18:54:30 meLon has joined
1342 2013-05-21 18:54:38 meLon has quit (Client Quit)
1343 2013-05-21 18:54:53 <gwillen> bitexchanger: you can get a big chunk of the blockchain from bittorrent
1344 2013-05-21 18:55:49 meLon has joined
1345 2013-05-21 18:56:20 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1346 2013-05-21 18:56:28 Bjander has joined
1347 2013-05-21 18:56:36 <sipa> bitexchanger: there's no problem downloading an (unindexed) blockchain, as your client will verify it upon import
1348 2013-05-21 18:56:48 <sipa> bitexchanger: and if someone is provided indexed ones, they should be shot
1349 2013-05-21 18:58:25 <sipa> gwillen: my GPG fingerprint is on my slides, so if he trusts the video isn't tampered with...
1350 2013-05-21 18:58:56 <sipa> i don't think they're published yet, though
1351 2013-05-21 18:59:11 nsillik has joined
1352 2013-05-21 19:00:47 <maaku> .
1353 2013-05-21 19:00:56 <gwillen> video is probably relatively hard to fake
1354 2013-05-21 19:01:14 <gwillen> I've thought about the idea of having people post video clips of themselves reciting and holding up their fingerprint
1355 2013-05-21 19:01:28 <gwillen> as a way of securely distributing it ("securely")
1356 2013-05-21 19:01:37 <SomeoneWeird> lol well
1357 2013-05-21 19:01:44 <sipa> except you need a way to establish identity
1358 2013-05-21 19:01:51 <SomeoneWeird> you'd need to have something to compare against
1359 2013-05-21 19:01:52 <SomeoneWeird> yeah
1360 2013-05-21 19:01:55 <sipa> i could create a video reicting my key id, and claiming to be gavin
1361 2013-05-21 19:02:15 <SomeoneWeird> and that webcams aren't good enough for both of them, really
1362 2013-05-21 19:02:27 <gwillen> sipa: well, since I've met you, it would be sufficient for me
1363 2013-05-21 19:02:38 <gwillen> but you're right, it wouldn't be sufficient for someone who didn't know what you look like
1364 2013-05-21 19:02:57 gjj has joined
1365 2013-05-21 19:03:32 <gwillen> ultimately though, I know that a person with a particular face is a core dev
1366 2013-05-21 19:03:32 <bitexchanger> I am under the impression the developers of bitcoin who have been in it for a long time are hoarding mass amounts of coins
1367 2013-05-21 19:03:38 <bitexchanger> Any truth to that assumption?
1368 2013-05-21 19:03:51 Diapolis has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1369 2013-05-21 19:03:59 <SomeoneWeird> possibly
1370 2013-05-21 19:04:04 <SomeoneWeird> no way to prove it or deny it though
1371 2013-05-21 19:04:20 Diapolis has joined
1372 2013-05-21 19:04:34 <bitexchanger> Of course not.. I just thought maybe some developers are open about it etc
1373 2013-05-21 19:04:48 <sipa> bitexchanger: my bitcoin holdings are a 3 digit number
1374 2013-05-21 19:05:02 <bitexchanger> Like this ^
1375 2013-05-21 19:05:06 <SomeoneWeird> :)
1376 2013-05-21 19:05:15 <bitexchanger> You gonna hold for long term, sipa ?
1377 2013-05-21 19:05:18 <sipa> (well, 3 digits before the decimal point)
1378 2013-05-21 19:05:27 <gigavps> lol
1379 2013-05-21 19:05:28 <sipa> who knows
1380 2013-05-21 19:05:39 <gigavps> i have 10 digits with the decimal :p
1381 2013-05-21 19:05:50 <bitexchanger> It blows my mind that bitcointalk.org has 6000 coins
1382 2013-05-21 19:06:02 <bitexchanger> I thought they were going to operate as a non profit ?
1383 2013-05-21 19:06:58 savetheinternet has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1384 2013-05-21 19:08:24 gjj has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1385 2013-05-21 19:09:44 wei_ has joined
1386 2013-05-21 19:09:57 whiterabbit has joined
1387 2013-05-21 19:11:20 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1388 2013-05-21 19:11:28 Bjander has joined
1389 2013-05-21 19:11:38 GordonG3kko has joined
1390 2013-05-21 19:12:31 ngc0202 has joined
1391 2013-05-21 19:13:08 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1392 2013-05-21 19:13:09 whiterabbit is now known as wrabbit
1393 2013-05-21 19:13:22 ovidiusoft has joined
1394 2013-05-21 19:17:32 Guest85715 has quit (Quit: Has quit)
1395 2013-05-21 19:19:14 safra has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1396 2013-05-21 19:19:17 caedes has joined
1397 2013-05-21 19:19:25 <dugo> well, looks like they can operate for a while then
1398 2013-05-21 19:20:05 icellan has joined
1399 2013-05-21 19:20:30 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1400 2013-05-21 19:20:49 slush_web has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1401 2013-05-21 19:21:01 meLon has quit (Quit: leaving)
1402 2013-05-21 19:21:38 brson has joined
1403 2013-05-21 19:22:16 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1404 2013-05-21 19:22:45 jtimon_ has joined
1405 2013-05-21 19:22:49 lmacken has joined
1406 2013-05-21 19:23:20 saulimus has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1407 2013-05-21 19:23:44 jtimon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1408 2013-05-21 19:23:57 saulimus has joined
1409 2013-05-21 19:24:01 Pinion has joined
1410 2013-05-21 19:24:25 Pinion is now known as Guest19593
1411 2013-05-21 19:24:26 seeingidog__ has joined
1412 2013-05-21 19:25:47 rumpler has joined
1413 2013-05-21 19:26:20 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1414 2013-05-21 19:26:27 Bjander has joined
1415 2013-05-21 19:26:28 cyphase has joined
1416 2013-05-21 19:28:39 Guest19593 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1417 2013-05-21 19:31:06 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1418 2013-05-21 19:31:39 <bitexchanger> sipa
1419 2013-05-21 19:31:55 gjj has joined
1420 2013-05-21 19:32:12 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1421 2013-05-21 19:32:44 <bitexchanger> When you update a client that hasn't been on for like 4 months... It has to reindex the blocks on your disk.. If you shut the client down when its like 50% complete will it resume when you start the client again? Or will it start from the beginning again ?
1422 2013-05-21 19:33:20 <sipa> it will resume
1423 2013-05-21 19:33:39 <bitexchanger> <e
1424 2013-05-21 19:33:41 <sipa> and the reindex is just because you go from pre-0.8 to post-0.8
1425 2013-05-21 19:33:43 <bitexchanger> <3 thanks sipa
1426 2013-05-21 19:34:01 debiantoruser has joined
1427 2013-05-21 19:34:11 chmod755 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1428 2013-05-21 19:34:15 <bitexchanger> Can I send coins while it's reindexing?
1429 2013-05-21 19:34:22 <rumpler> yes
1430 2013-05-21 19:35:18 IceLookLo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1431 2013-05-21 19:38:22 DBordello has quit (Excess Flood)
1432 2013-05-21 19:38:58 DBordello has joined
1433 2013-05-21 19:41:04 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
1434 2013-05-21 19:41:20 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1435 2013-05-21 19:41:27 Bjander has joined
1436 2013-05-21 19:42:37 BITTEeinBIT has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
1437 2013-05-21 19:44:52 ivan` has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1438 2013-05-21 19:46:22 atweiden has joined
1439 2013-05-21 19:47:16 mrkent has joined
1440 2013-05-21 19:48:19 ivan` has joined
1441 2013-05-21 19:48:56 [Author] has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1442 2013-05-21 19:49:13 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1443 2013-05-21 19:50:37 debiantoruser has joined
1444 2013-05-21 19:51:33 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
1445 2013-05-21 19:52:00 safra has joined
1446 2013-05-21 19:52:21 santoscork has joined
1447 2013-05-21 19:53:05 santoscork has quit (Client Quit)
1448 2013-05-21 19:54:05 [Author] has joined
1449 2013-05-21 19:55:34 IceLookLo has joined
1450 2013-05-21 19:56:20 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1451 2013-05-21 19:56:26 Bjander has joined
1452 2013-05-21 19:56:36 Chuky has joined
1453 2013-05-21 19:57:14 savetheinternet has joined
1454 2013-05-21 19:57:16 santoscork has joined
1455 2013-05-21 19:57:37 paybitcoin1 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1456 2013-05-21 20:00:29 Neozonz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1457 2013-05-21 20:01:35 GavinAirplane has joined
1458 2013-05-21 20:04:04 <BlueMatt> GavinAirplane: finally leaving san jose?
1459 2013-05-21 20:04:37 mintmoney has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
1460 2013-05-21 20:04:58 <GavinAirplane> left san jose Monday morning, spent most of Monday at the beach
1461 2013-05-21 20:05:06 <BlueMatt> ahh, nice
1462 2013-05-21 20:05:15 ecoloco has joined
1463 2013-05-21 20:05:15 <GavinAirplane> mmmm.... beach....
1464 2013-05-21 20:05:16 <BlueMatt> you know whats coming next...
1465 2013-05-21 20:05:17 mintmoney has joined
1466 2013-05-21 20:05:22 <BlueMatt> what are your plans for 0.8.2?
1467 2013-05-21 20:05:38 <GavinAirplane> do we have any 0.8.2 showstoppers?  I thought I saw one serious GUI issue....
1468 2013-05-21 20:05:58 <Luke-Jr> the reinded-new-wallets maybe
1469 2013-05-21 20:06:03 <GavinAirplane> I'd like to spin final release binaries as soon as I'm home
1470 2013-05-21 20:06:06 <ecoloco> Hello. I wonder how many Bitcoin addresses, it is possible to create? (Bitcoin-qt)
1471 2013-05-21 20:06:13 <GavinAirplane> reindex new wallets isn't a showstopper bug
1472 2013-05-21 20:06:14 <BlueMatt> infinite
1473 2013-05-21 20:06:16 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1474 2013-05-21 20:06:42 bencoder has joined
1475 2013-05-21 20:06:45 <TheLordOfTime> maxlimit on addresses you can have in bitcoin-qt (latest version)?
1476 2013-05-21 20:06:50 LainZ has joined
1477 2013-05-21 20:06:51 <TheLordOfTime> s/addresses/receive limit/
1478 2013-05-21 20:06:55 <BlueMatt> infinite
1479 2013-05-21 20:07:02 <BlueMatt> itl get slow as fuck, but you can have as many as you want
1480 2013-05-21 20:07:03 bencoder has left ()
1481 2013-05-21 20:07:04 <TheLordOfTime> (question asked in -otc, but i thought I'd get a definitive answer here)
1482 2013-05-21 20:07:11 <TheLordOfTime> BlueMatt:  that's what I thought
1483 2013-05-21 20:07:39 <Luke-Jr> I think there was somethingelse too, but I forget what… hopefully gmaxwell or sipa remembers
1484 2013-05-21 20:07:47 Diapolis has joined
1485 2013-05-21 20:07:57 <Luke-Jr> maybe post082 tho
1486 2013-05-21 20:09:09 diki has joined
1487 2013-05-21 20:09:12 <diki> Ok this is def weird
1488 2013-05-21 20:09:15 CaptainBlaze has joined
1489 2013-05-21 20:09:44 Tritonio has joined
1490 2013-05-21 20:11:20 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1491 2013-05-21 20:11:28 Bjander has joined
1492 2013-05-21 20:11:30 <diki> I had 1.28 bitcoins
1493 2013-05-21 20:11:34 <diki> now i have just "balance" : 0.05397785,
1494 2013-05-21 20:11:47 <diki> And listtransactions doesnt show a malicious transaction
1495 2013-05-21 20:11:57 Neozonz has joined
1496 2013-05-21 20:11:58 Neozonz has quit (Changing host)
1497 2013-05-21 20:11:58 Neozonz has joined
1498 2013-05-21 20:12:31 diki has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1499 2013-05-21 20:12:45 diki has joined
1500 2013-05-21 20:12:49 andrew12 is now known as ANDREW12
1501 2013-05-21 20:13:16 porquilho has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1502 2013-05-21 20:13:39 porquilho has joined
1503 2013-05-21 20:14:07 <diki> The only thing I can think of is either corrupted wallet
1504 2013-05-21 20:14:10 <diki> OR...
1505 2013-05-21 20:15:31 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1506 2013-05-21 20:17:28 <diki> Well my coins seem to be there according to https://blockchain.info/address/12jujMxZodCde2o4LvLRpsXK5tF1WQ9YC9
1507 2013-05-21 20:17:46 <diki> Running -rescan to see what the hell is wrong
1508 2013-05-21 20:18:32 DBordello has quit (Excess Flood)
1509 2013-05-21 20:18:41 Belkaar has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1510 2013-05-21 20:19:18 <diki> phew, all there
1511 2013-05-21 20:19:38 <diki> What the hell was wrong? Why didn't the client see my..inputs/outputs/whatever?
1512 2013-05-21 20:20:28 DBordello has joined
1513 2013-05-21 20:20:33 <MC1984> well probably never know
1514 2013-05-21 20:20:48 <MC1984> a beta version i used once doubled my balance
1515 2013-05-21 20:20:52 Belkaar has joined
1516 2013-05-21 20:20:52 <MC1984> mfw
1517 2013-05-21 20:21:01 <diki> Yeah..I am indeed using a recent git pull
1518 2013-05-21 20:21:06 <diki> but damn, that was scary
1519 2013-05-21 20:22:52 <sipa> GavinAirplane:
1520 2013-05-21 20:22:53 nsillik has joined
1521 2013-05-21 20:23:10 <sipa> do you consider GBT taking over 10s a showstopper bug?
1522 2013-05-21 20:23:14 <GavinAirplane> sipa:
1523 2013-05-21 20:23:52 xblackbytesx has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1524 2013-05-21 20:23:56 <GavinAirplane> under what conditions does GBT take that long?  Often?
1525 2013-05-21 20:24:03 <sipa> always
1526 2013-05-21 20:24:11 <sipa> with a filled mempool
1527 2013-05-21 20:24:23 <GavinAirplane> seems like a showstopper to me.  Is there already a fix?
1528 2013-05-21 20:24:48 <gmaxwell> Sipa's improvements are somewhat invasive.
1529 2013-05-21 20:24:52 <sipa> #2677 improves GBT performancr in general
1530 2013-05-21 20:24:54 <diki> GavinAirplane:I can confirm this bug.
1531 2013-05-21 20:24:55 xblackbytesx has joined
1532 2013-05-21 20:25:00 Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1533 2013-05-21 20:25:06 <sipa> slush is already running with ir
1534 2013-05-21 20:25:07 <diki> I just issued a getblocktemplate and it took quite a while
1535 2013-05-21 20:25:12 <gmaxwell> sipa: I do not believe its a regression. The increase in time is just network activity related. Do you agree?
1536 2013-05-21 20:25:22 <sipa> gmaxwell: agree
1537 2013-05-21 20:26:08 TD has joined
1538 2013-05-21 20:26:10 <gmaxwell> Since its not a regression— we could ship without it and fix in 0.8.2.1 released in a few days and just promoted to miners in order to reduce the risk from the fixes.
1539 2013-05-21 20:26:14 safra has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1540 2013-05-21 20:26:15 <GavinAirplane> Is there already a bug for GBT taking too long?
1541 2013-05-21 20:26:20 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1542 2013-05-21 20:26:21 jeewee has joined
1543 2013-05-21 20:26:29 Bjander has joined
1544 2013-05-21 20:26:29 <sipa> GavinAirplane: not afaik
1545 2013-05-21 20:26:43 <sipa> kinlo and slush told me in pm
1546 2013-05-21 20:27:02 <GavinAirplane> Ok.  Well, get one filed and marked for the 0.8.2 milestone....
1547 2013-05-21 20:27:18 Pinion has joined
1548 2013-05-21 20:27:30 <BlueMatt> GavinAirplane: pull requests show up in Issues list...so...yes there is?
1549 2013-05-21 20:27:42 Pinion is now known as Guest89940
1550 2013-05-21 20:27:54 <GavinAirplane> BlueMatt: cool, is that issue 2677 ?
1551 2013-05-21 20:27:59 <sipa> yes
1552 2013-05-21 20:29:17 <MC1984> what constitutes a filled mempool
1553 2013-05-21 20:29:32 <MC1984> i just issued GBT and its still going lol
1554 2013-05-21 20:29:44 viperhr1 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1555 2013-05-21 20:29:58 <sipa> i now have poolsz >6000 now, but i intentionally made some changes to grow it faster
1556 2013-05-21 20:30:18 <MC1984> 1800, and im still waiting
1557 2013-05-21 20:31:12 <sipa> #2677 mostly improves cases where many mempool txn spend inputs from the same txid
1558 2013-05-21 20:35:43 Guest89940 has quit (Quit: Has quit)
1559 2013-05-21 20:37:47 wizkid057 is now known as wizkid057|DND
1560 2013-05-21 20:38:46 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1561 2013-05-21 20:38:50 GavinAirplane has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1562 2013-05-21 20:41:00 Bjander has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1563 2013-05-21 20:44:51 SteveDekorte has joined
1564 2013-05-21 20:46:53 GavinAirplane has joined
1565 2013-05-21 20:47:41 Skav has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1566 2013-05-21 20:47:57 MobPhone has joined
1567 2013-05-21 20:47:59 <michagogo> [22:42:19] <GavinAirplane> do we have any 0.8.2 showstoppers?  I thought I saw one serious GUI issue....
1568 2013-05-21 20:47:59 <michagogo> What GUI issue is that?
1569 2013-05-21 20:49:31 ColinT has joined
1570 2013-05-21 20:50:56 Breign has joined
1571 2013-05-21 20:50:56 Blackreign has quit (Disconnected by services)
1572 2013-05-21 20:51:06 Breign is now known as Blackreign
1573 2013-05-21 20:51:34 brson has joined
1574 2013-05-21 20:53:52 runeks has left ("http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.")
1575 2013-05-21 20:55:17 pacpac2 has joined
1576 2013-05-21 20:55:47 resinate has quit (Quit: resinate)
1577 2013-05-21 20:56:23 gigavps has quit ()
1578 2013-05-21 20:58:13 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1579 2013-05-21 20:58:32 caedes has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1580 2013-05-21 20:58:47 pacpac2 is now known as pacpac
1581 2013-05-21 20:59:26 icellan has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1582 2013-05-21 20:59:36 ColinT has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1583 2013-05-21 21:01:43 <gmaxwell> I would guess he's talking about the person that probably had a busted QT install.
1584 2013-05-21 21:01:46 <Tykling> given the txid from walletnotify, how do I (from say python) find the btc address/account that was affected by the transaction ?
1585 2013-05-21 21:02:10 <Tykling> I was looking at getrawtransaction with verbose=1 and parsing the json
1586 2013-05-21 21:02:18 <gmaxwell> michagogo: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2643
1587 2013-05-21 21:02:29 <sipa> Tykling: use gettransaction, not getrawtransaction
1588 2013-05-21 21:02:43 <sipa> (the former is a wallet call, the latter a blockchain call)
1589 2013-05-21 21:02:49 <gmaxwell> (more details on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2661 )
1590 2013-05-21 21:03:00 <Tykling> sipa: looks much better, thanks!
1591 2013-05-21 21:03:07 <GavinAirplane> michagogo: I must've been dreaming, I don't see a showstopper GUI issue in the bug list
1592 2013-05-21 21:04:22 <michagogo> gmaxwell: That issue looks to be fixed
1593 2013-05-21 21:04:30 <GavinAirplane> (bah, lousy airplane connection--  it was the issue gmaxwell pointed out)
1594 2013-05-21 21:05:07 <michagogo> GavinAirplane: You on a bouncer or something?
1595 2013-05-21 21:05:26 <GavinAirplane> I think it is a 737.
1596 2013-05-21 21:05:31 <GavinAirplane> :)
1597 2013-05-21 21:05:32 <MC1984> no hes on a plane
1598 2013-05-21 21:05:37 <michagogo> GavinAirplane: You know what I mean.
1599 2013-05-21 21:05:40 <michagogo> (I hope!)
1600 2013-05-21 21:05:44 <GavinAirplane> supposed to get bouncy in a bit.....
1601 2013-05-21 21:05:48 DBordello has quit (Excess Flood)
1602 2013-05-21 21:05:49 <MC1984> lol quicker than me
1603 2013-05-21 21:06:02 impaired has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1604 2013-05-21 21:06:07 richcollins has joined
1605 2013-05-21 21:06:09 * sipa was amazed by the up/down bandwidth aboard the plane i came with
1606 2013-05-21 21:06:20 <sipa> (1.5 Mbit/s, iirc)
1607 2013-05-21 21:06:46 <MC1984> how is that possible
1608 2013-05-21 21:07:06 <gmaxwell> michagogo: it's not 'fixed', the change the person with the issue opened was closed because it wasn't effective/correct. But I don't know that we've had any evidence that whatever issue is here impacts anyone but this one person.
1609 2013-05-21 21:07:21 toffoo has joined
1610 2013-05-21 21:07:35 <GavinAirplane> cool, according to speedtest.net we're flying over Nebraska....
1611 2013-05-21 21:07:41 <michagogo> GavinAirplane: Are you connecting from the airplane directly to freenode, or going through an intermediate IRC bouncer>
1612 2013-05-21 21:07:42 <BlueMatt> heh, rereading GetMinFee again: the if(output < CENT) {minFee=baseFee} rule overrides the if(tx size > 26k){minFee = baseFee*size in kb} rule...so, if you have a big tx make sure to add that extra 0.009 output to get lower min required fee for relay.....
1613 2013-05-21 21:07:44 <michagogo> bouncer?*
1614 2013-05-21 21:07:52 <BlueMatt> michagogo: whois...its webchat
1615 2013-05-21 21:07:57 <michagogo> Oh
1616 2013-05-21 21:07:58 DBordello has joined
1617 2013-05-21 21:08:02 <michagogo> I see.
1618 2013-05-21 21:08:11 ecoloco has quit ()
1619 2013-05-21 21:08:41 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: GAH! are you sure you're not misreading?  (I can't look at it now)
1620 2013-05-21 21:08:49 <michagogo> [23:41:11] <GavinAirplane> (bah, lousy airplane connection--  it was the issue gmaxwell pointed out)
1621 2013-05-21 21:08:49 <michagogo> So why hasn't he been quitting and joining repeatedly?
1622 2013-05-21 21:08:52 <GavinAirplane> michagogo: Airplane to webchat.freenode.net
1623 2013-05-21 21:08:52 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yes, its very obvious
1624 2013-05-21 21:09:12 <michagogo> GavinAirplane: Interesting, so the answer is actually "both"
1625 2013-05-21 21:09:15 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: also it was previously unreadable, but the changes i made to make it readable dont effect that
1626 2013-05-21 21:09:28 deltab has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1627 2013-05-21 21:09:34 <michagogo> GavinAirplane: You're connecting from the airplane to herbert, but then the IRC is passing through a relay
1628 2013-05-21 21:09:41 <GavinAirplane> michagogo: I don't know nuthin about networking.  people don't believe me, but it's almost completely true.
1629 2013-05-21 21:09:54 <michagogo> o_O
1630 2013-05-21 21:09:59 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I thought there was some >10k check that turned off all that code in any case.
1631 2013-05-21 21:10:01 <sipa> GavinAirplane: ok, how many bits in an IP address?
1632 2013-05-21 21:10:01 <MC1984> but yourre a Computer Guy
1633 2013-05-21 21:10:03 icellan has joined
1634 2013-05-21 21:10:11 <MC1984> btw i can get on my email help pls
1635 2013-05-21 21:10:11 <GavinAirplane> sipa: eleven, I think.
1636 2013-05-21 21:10:12 <michagogo> GavinAirplane: Do you just leave the networking bits to others?
1637 2013-05-21 21:10:17 <michagogo> GavinAirplane: No, 32 or 128
1638 2013-05-21 21:10:22 <sipa> haha
1639 2013-05-21 21:10:31 * sipa thinks GavinAirplane may not have been entirely serious
1640 2013-05-21 21:10:33 <GavinAirplane> close enough, I got within order of magnitude
1641 2013-05-21 21:10:33 realzies is now known as realazthat
1642 2013-05-21 21:10:36 <gmaxwell> Does 11 include the evil bit?
1643 2013-05-21 21:10:40 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: no, the 10k check is equivalent to the 26k limit but 10k applies to generated txn, 26k to relayed txn
1644 2013-05-21 21:10:41 <sipa> :D
1645 2013-05-21 21:11:09 deltab has joined
1646 2013-05-21 21:11:21 <GavinAirplane> BlueMatt: plan is to throw out all those hacky constants, yes?
1647 2013-05-21 21:11:27 <BlueMatt> on a related note, GetMinFee makes me want to cry
1648 2013-05-21 21:11:27 abrkn has joined
1649 2013-05-21 21:11:46 <BlueMatt> GavinAirplane: yes, but that work has stalled...too many other things to work on and it requires some serious whiteboarding/discussion before I can move forward
1650 2013-05-21 21:11:53 <BlueMatt> GavinAirplane: feel free to take it over
1651 2013-05-21 21:12:02 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: We can send you a whiteboard.
1652 2013-05-21 21:12:13 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: heh, I have one of them
1653 2013-05-21 21:12:15 <gmaxwell> I have two in my living room, but they are a bit big to ship… :P
1654 2013-05-21 21:12:23 <GavinAirplane> BlueMatt: Ok, it is very high on my TODO
1655 2013-05-21 21:12:58 <GavinAirplane> I already upset a bunch of people messing with fees, might as well do it some more....
1656 2013-05-21 21:13:03 <BlueMatt> I can provide the code, but the fee-calculation-from-mempool-in-the-case-of-just-started-node needs thought
1657 2013-05-21 21:13:15 <BlueMatt> on second thought, that maybe shouldnt have been hyphenated
1658 2013-05-21 21:13:22 <GavinAirplane> I'll just start it at eleven.
1659 2013-05-21 21:13:30 <GavinAirplane> :)
1660 2013-05-21 21:13:45 <BlueMatt> heh, go for it
1661 2013-05-21 21:13:53 <sipa> start at 11M BTC
1662 2013-05-21 21:13:57 <BlueMatt> also, SPV cases need lots of thought
1663 2013-05-21 21:14:00 <sipa> unlikely to be too high
1664 2013-05-21 21:14:06 <sipa> BlueMatt: yes, that's a big question i have
1665 2013-05-21 21:14:12 <BlueMatt> if your node hasnt been up for a day, you will pay a full btc per tx
1666 2013-05-21 21:14:22 <BlueMatt> so y'all better start running seednodes now :p
1667 2013-05-21 21:14:25 <michagogo> BlueMatt: o_O
1668 2013-05-21 21:14:28 <michagogo> wth
1669 2013-05-21 21:14:29 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: no, once we have finite mempools and some way of expiring crap we can pull the mempool at start.
1670 2013-05-21 21:14:30 tyn has joined
1671 2013-05-21 21:14:48 <sipa> i've patched my node to already do that
1672 2013-05-21 21:14:51 <gmaxwell> (oh, I suppose if you depend on monitoring it over time thats another matter)
1673 2013-05-21 21:15:02 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: well, ok yes that works
1674 2013-05-21 21:15:07 <sipa> interestingly, i think it means i'm augmenting my peer's mempools too
1675 2013-05-21 21:15:15 <sipa> as those txn are relayed as well...
1676 2013-05-21 21:15:16 <BlueMatt> yes, currently also needs at least 6 blocks worth of mempool contents
1677 2013-05-21 21:15:43 <gmaxwell> sipa: there is some clown node out there that super duper agressively reannounces their mempool the instant a new block shows up. I've seen it a number of times.
1678 2013-05-21 21:16:36 <sipa> my mempool is 7200 txn
1679 2013-05-21 21:16:42 <sipa> (without dust filtering)
1680 2013-05-21 21:17:33 Jearil has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1681 2013-05-21 21:18:23 santoscork has quit (Quit: Quiet while I make like a cat)
1682 2013-05-21 21:18:26 tonikt has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1683 2013-05-21 21:19:11 caedes has joined
1684 2013-05-21 21:19:30 <MC1984> anyone know why tx volume has increased so much recently
1685 2013-05-21 21:19:35 <MC1984> is it actual growth...
1686 2013-05-21 21:19:56 <MC1984> volume/mempool
1687 2013-05-21 21:20:06 <MC1984> most blocks are still rather small
1688 2013-05-21 21:20:11 <BlueMatt> sipa: my current havent-thought-about-it-much idea is to just create an rpc that provides fee info and let SPV clients average the results from several semi-trusted sources which provide that info
1689 2013-05-21 21:20:21 <helo> maybe with stable values, people are loosening their grip a bit
1690 2013-05-21 21:21:04 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: well, it _could_ do something like height. e.g. nodes advertise an apparent fee schedules based on their mempools and it medians them. But .. eeeeh.
1691 2013-05-21 21:21:18 <gmaxwell> MC1984: intention spam right now. :(
1692 2013-05-21 21:21:34 <MC1984> intention spam?
1693 2013-05-21 21:21:39 twobitcoins has joined
1694 2013-05-21 21:21:59 <gmaxwell> I'm distinguishing it from inefficient usage which isn't intended to be spam but gets called spam.
1695 2013-05-21 21:22:16 <gmaxwell> The attack of the correct horse stapler battery.
1696 2013-05-21 21:22:30 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1697 2013-05-21 21:22:57 <MC1984> yea i saw that, doesnt even get confirmed, completely stupid
1698 2013-05-21 21:22:57 <k00shi> :)
1699 2013-05-21 21:23:19 <gmaxwell> MC1984: nah, a lot is getting confirmed too.
1700 2013-05-21 21:23:39 <gmaxwell> I think I heard someone say there were 30k confirmed txouts of that now. :(
1701 2013-05-21 21:23:48 twobitcoins__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1702 2013-05-21 21:24:16 <MC1984> so someone drops .001 coins in that stupid address and causes a shitstorm, nice
1703 2013-05-21 21:25:18 <BlueMatt> anyway, I personally dont actually mind SPV nodes having to do 10 HTTP queries and median them to get their minfee info
1704 2013-05-21 21:25:18 saulimus has quit (Quit: saulimus)
1705 2013-05-21 21:25:28 <BlueMatt> hell, even full-nodes could do it before they've been running long enough
1706 2013-05-21 21:26:13 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: full nodes should just yank the mempool, that _should_ be enough— I hope— and has other benefits.
1707 2013-05-21 21:26:22 <BlueMatt> yes, probably...
1708 2013-05-21 21:26:48 <BlueMatt> anyway, I'd like to see what TD / Goonie have to say since they make up a big chunk of the SPV market
1709 2013-05-21 21:27:02 <TD> you summoned me?
1710 2013-05-21 21:27:32 <BlueMatt> <BlueMatt> sia: my current havent-thought-about-it-much idea is to just create an rpc that provides fee info and let SPV clients average the results from several semi-trusted sources which provide that info
1711 2013-05-21 21:27:38 <TD> you mean p2p message, right
1712 2013-05-21 21:27:43 <BlueMatt> re: removing all constants for fee stuff
1713 2013-05-21 21:27:46 <BlueMatt> probably not
1714 2013-05-21 21:27:50 <BlueMatt> but it could be
1715 2013-05-21 21:27:51 wei_ has quit (Quit: wei_)
1716 2013-05-21 21:27:56 <TD> roc is pretty useless for spy clients ....
1717 2013-05-21 21:27:58 <TD> rpc
1718 2013-05-21 21:28:12 * TD hates the stupid macos auto-spelling correction feature
1719 2013-05-21 21:28:14 <BlueMatt> well the idea is to make the info easily accessible and then let people publish it via http
1720 2013-05-21 21:28:20 <BlueMatt> eg bitcoin.org and other semi-trusted sources
1721 2013-05-21 21:28:22 <sipa> i consider RPC a client-specific interface
1722 2013-05-21 21:28:32 <sipa> hmmz
1723 2013-05-21 21:28:39 <BlueMatt> ./bitcoind getfeeinfo > /var/www/feeinfo.txt
1724 2013-05-21 21:29:39 <BlueMatt> (and all this just after I finished implementing the minfee constants in bitcoinj too...)
1725 2013-05-21 21:30:41 lodse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1726 2013-05-21 21:31:20 zer0def has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1727 2013-05-21 21:32:08 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1728 2013-05-21 21:32:51 DoctorBTC has joined
1729 2013-05-21 21:33:49 <BlueMatt> GavinAirplane: on a related note, since 0.8.2 is so fee-centric, do you want to fix the obvious bug in GetMinFee too? (if your txn is > 26k it requires base fee * size in kb, but if you add an 0.009 output to that txn, the base fee overrides that fee and you only need base fee)
1730 2013-05-21 21:34:03 <TD> BlueMatt: why not a p2p message? i don't see the rationale for that
1731 2013-05-21 21:34:45 jspilman has joined
1732 2013-05-21 21:35:15 phma_ has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1733 2013-05-21 21:35:23 <BlueMatt> the issue is your peers will either have little/no vested interest or an interest in lying to give you a fee that is too high (miners mostly, but now there is an incentive to get 1000 listening nodes lying to SPV clients...)
1734 2013-05-21 21:35:23 a5m0 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1735 2013-05-21 21:35:56 <GavinAirplane> BlueMatt: yes, I think that should be fixed.
1736 2013-05-21 21:37:44 IceLookLo is now known as lolcookie_______
1737 2013-05-21 21:37:45 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I think that should be fixed too. Esp since AFAIK no wallet has been 'smart' enough to exploit it intentionally, so it should be harmless to fix it.
1738 2013-05-21 21:38:08 lolcookie_______ is now known as lolcookie__
1739 2013-05-21 21:38:12 porquilho has quit ()
1740 2013-05-21 21:42:20 ngc0202 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1741 2013-05-21 21:42:47 ngc0202 has joined
1742 2013-05-21 21:42:53 <mischief> hi #bitcoin-dev
1743 2013-05-21 21:43:19 savetheinternet has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
1744 2013-05-21 21:43:47 <TD> BlueMatt: so? there is an incentive to lie about unconfirmed transactions too. it's hard to do
1745 2013-05-21 21:43:58 abrkn has quit ()
1746 2013-05-21 21:44:10 <TD> BlueMatt: that said, at the conference there was a fascinating presentation by an academic cryptographer who claimed that efficient provable computation was actually in reach
1747 2013-05-21 21:44:17 <BlueMatt> GavinAirplane/gmaxwell: are y'all ok with merging #2660 or do you want a single commit that just fixes that bug
1748 2013-05-21 21:44:20 abrkn has joined
1749 2013-05-21 21:44:24 a5m0 has joined
1750 2013-05-21 21:44:42 a5m0 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1751 2013-05-21 21:44:46 <TD> BlueMatt: he said their team is going to release a system that lets you write an arbitrary program in C that you compile with a magic gcc backend, and then when you run the program (with private inputs) it generates a signature that can be checked so efficiently a phone can do it
1752 2013-05-21 21:45:05 <BlueMatt> TD: I dunno, its easier for a miner to set this up and profit if they can just tell all the little android wallets that each txn needs at least 0.01 fee
1753 2013-05-21 21:45:08 pacpac has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1754 2013-05-21 21:45:11 <TD> BlueMatt: so potentially fee calculation could be such a provable program, with SPV clients checking the proofs. though i have no idea how feasible it really is, he was saying it's now somewhat doable
1755 2013-05-21 21:45:31 <BlueMatt> TD: how do you prove the node isnt throwing out txn with low fee?
1756 2013-05-21 21:45:36 <sipa> TD: they can lie about the input
1757 2013-05-21 21:45:38 <BlueMatt> (fee calculation is based on mempool, not blocks)
1758 2013-05-21 21:45:39 <TD> BlueMatt: in the unlikely event that this actually happened, we'd just push an update that moved fee determination to a centralised SSL site.
1759 2013-05-21 21:45:45 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr|TD: unfortunately, it may kill any potential for alt implementations - though maybe still worth it
1760 2013-05-21 21:45:55 <sipa> TD: the algorithm would be something that takes their mempool and computes assumed fee policy
1761 2013-05-21 21:45:56 <TD> i really don't think this is a big deal, regardless.
1762 2013-05-21 21:46:01 <sipa> TD: but you can start from any mempool
1763 2013-05-21 21:46:08 <BlueMatt> if you switched it on today, Im sure it would work
1764 2013-05-21 21:46:10 <TD> BlueMatt: because the fee is based on blocks not mempools
1765 2013-05-21 21:46:15 <BlueMatt> if it would keep working for a year, I dont know...
1766 2013-05-21 21:46:36 <TD> look at what transactions are actually getting confirmed, not what's sitting in the mempool
1767 2013-05-21 21:46:38 <gmaxwell> The fee is based on mempools not blocks.
1768 2013-05-21 21:46:57 <BlueMatt> TD: previous discussion (like...a year or something ago) came to the conclusion that minfee calculation should be based on mempools as it is too easy for miners to pad blocks with high-fee pay-self txn
1769 2013-05-21 21:47:01 <gmaxwell> If you do that then miners just put in their own large fee transactions into their own blocks to drive fees up from those willing to not ignore the criteria.
1770 2013-05-21 21:47:06 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr|TD: I would think you can prove what inputs were used too, so long as those are disclosed to both ends
1771 2013-05-21 21:47:18 <TD> GavinAirplane has been talking about floating fees based on what actually makes it into blocks, and that makes sense
1772 2013-05-21 21:47:24 <BlueMatt> luke-jr|otg: an spv client doesnt have those inputs, on purpose
1773 2013-05-21 21:47:29 ThomasV has joined
1774 2013-05-21 21:47:29 <TD> luke-jr|otg: yeah i need to explore what's possible
1775 2013-05-21 21:47:38 <BlueMatt> TD: yes, to figure out what makes it into blocks you look at what just missed the cut in mempool
1776 2013-05-21 21:47:43 <TD> regardless, a P2P message is the right place to start.
1777 2013-05-21 21:47:45 <gmaxwell> if you use mempools they cannot do that without actually announcing the transactions.
1778 2013-05-21 21:47:55 <gmaxwell> But I agree wrt a p2p message.
1779 2013-05-21 21:48:52 <TD> BlueMatt: why would you need more than a block? let's say you know the current block size limit (if it's determined by a floating formula). now look at the smallest fees paid. it's fair to assume you should be paying about that much.
1780 2013-05-21 21:48:56 <gmaxwell> just some histogram of fees (quantized by blocksize) in the mempool or something. But worry about making the full nodes do sane things first.
1781 2013-05-21 21:49:05 a5m0 has joined
1782 2013-05-21 21:49:49 <TD> and yes, miners can do all kinds of terrible things. they can double spend people. they can not include any transactions at all. if you're averaging over a lot of blocks it doesn't seem like a bigger risk than any other "majority of miners are bogus" attack
1783 2013-05-21 21:50:05 <BlueMatt> TD: huh?
1784 2013-05-21 21:50:06 <sipa> using the mempool seems much more natural to me
1785 2013-05-21 21:50:08 <GavinAirplane> It doesn't have to be perfect to start, as long as it is always reasonably sane.
1786 2013-05-21 21:50:14 <sipa> blocks are whatever miners like
1787 2013-05-21 21:50:23 <GavinAirplane> Clients will compete to have the best-for-the-user fee policy....
1788 2013-05-21 21:50:25 <BlueMatt> for sane, Id go for full-nodes announce fees based on mempools
1789 2013-05-21 21:50:28 <sipa> the mempool is part of the global censensus mechanism
1790 2013-05-21 21:50:28 <TD> sipa: so is the mempool, for any given none.
1791 2013-05-21 21:50:37 <TD> node
1792 2013-05-21 21:50:47 <BlueMatt> GavinAirplane/gmaxwell: are y'all ok with merging #2660 or do you want a single commit that just fixes the GetMinFee bug (or do it yourselves :p)
1793 2013-05-21 21:50:57 <sipa> mempools are whatever gets announced (after relay policy!) on the p2p network
1794 2013-05-21 21:51:04 <gmaxwell> This isn't stealing from people.. it's not at all compariable. This is make your own transactions and drive up the fees people pay. And I _promise_ people will do that. If you wanted to use the blocks as a sanity check— well okay, but I dunno how you're going to do that when bloom filtering in anycase.
1795 2013-05-21 21:51:14 <TD> they're inherently node specific due to differing relay policies.
1796 2013-05-21 21:51:20 <gmaxwell> (unless you target the mean, which is even easier to dork with)
1797 2013-05-21 21:51:21 <sipa> of course they are
1798 2013-05-21 21:51:27 <GavinAirplane> BlueMatt: I haven't looked at 2660 yet (and am about to run out of power)
1799 2013-05-21 21:51:30 <sipa> but they interact
1800 2013-05-21 21:51:33 <sipa> blocks don't
1801 2013-05-21 21:51:48 <BlueMatt> GavinAirplane: buy a bigger battery next time? (or sit in first class on an airline that has power there...) :p
1802 2013-05-21 21:51:57 <BlueMatt> GavinAirplane: anyway, Ill leave it up to y'all, Im heading off for today
1803 2013-05-21 21:52:06 tlrobinson has joined
1804 2013-05-21 21:52:13 <sipa> plus, in a mempool you have information about how long a transaction has been waiting already, potentially
1805 2013-05-21 21:52:34 * luke-jr otg!~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr|'s battery has about an hour left <.<
1806 2013-05-21 21:52:46 <TD> sipa: we're still talking about how SPV clients find a good fee to pay, right? they don't have access to the mempool. so you're back to asking the remote node to be honest. now with the magic provable computation stuff (if it works), you can at least know what the inputs were.
1807 2013-05-21 21:52:53 <TD> i.e. blocks
1808 2013-05-21 21:52:59 <sipa> TD: oh, no i wasn't talking about SPV nodes
1809 2013-05-21 21:53:03 <sipa> i have no good solution for that
1810 2013-05-21 21:53:27 <TD> well, it's pretty fundamental. given that it's what most users will/should end up on.
1811 2013-05-21 21:53:29 bitafterbit has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1812 2013-05-21 21:53:35 <tlrobinson> if i want to make a backup of bitcoind's blocks and chainstate directories, can I safely do it while bitcoind is running, or do i need to shut it down or "pause" it somehow?
1813 2013-05-21 21:53:43 <sipa> i disagree with 'should', but i do agree with 'will' :)
1814 2013-05-21 21:53:45 <GavinAirplane> I think a transaction.version=2 that includes fees paid and has an outer signature (by one of the keys used in the tx itself) might work.
1815 2013-05-21 21:53:59 icellan has quit (Quit: icellan)
1816 2013-05-21 21:53:59 <gmaxwell> The best I had to offer is a p2p message of the regular fullnode metric and you median it.  Bluematt wants to connect to https servers, and thats kinda yucky. But .. well.. SPV client authors: knock yourself out.
1817 2013-05-21 21:54:25 SirDefaced has quit ()
1818 2013-05-21 21:54:42 <gwillen> gmaxwell: by 'regular fullnode metric' do you mean some future computation the fullnodes will do to determine their fees (which computation does not exist yet)
1819 2013-05-21 21:54:46 owowo has quit (Quit: sayonara)
1820 2013-05-21 21:54:52 <gwillen> or a metric that exists already that I should go look at
1821 2013-05-21 21:54:52 <gmaxwell> gwillen: correct!
1822 2013-05-21 21:54:57 <gmaxwell> the former.
1823 2013-05-21 21:55:02 <gwillen> okay :-)
1824 2013-05-21 21:55:19 wei_ has joined
1825 2013-05-21 21:55:38 <TD> even with a mempool based policy, that can't be done until nodes are syncing their mempools at startup.
1826 2013-05-21 21:55:42 * gwillen told GavinAirplane at the con that I'm interested in working on that, has not followed up yet :-)
1827 2013-05-21 21:55:50 <gmaxwell> gwillen: which sounds like it should be something like "maintain a mempool, pick a fee that gets your transaction where you'd like it to be in line"
1828 2013-05-21 21:55:53 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell/GavinAirplane: I pushed a new commit on #2660, I think it should cherry-pick if you want, but I still like #2660
1829 2013-05-21 21:55:55 <sipa> TD: which we should (but not without a good eviction policy)
1830 2013-05-21 21:56:02 <gmaxwell> 13:51 < gmaxwell> BlueMatt: no, once we have finite mempools and some way of expiring crap we can pull the mempool at start.
1831 2013-05-21 21:56:06 <gmaxwell> 13:51 < sipa> i've patched my node to already do that
1832 2013-05-21 21:56:18 <TD> yeah i had a node patched to do that for a while
1833 2013-05-21 21:56:38 ovidiusoft has quit (Quit: leaving)
1834 2013-05-21 21:56:48 <gwillen> gmaxwell: that makes sense, and seems more likely to be correct than an algorithm based on "what did it cost to get into the last block", which I'd heard floated
1835 2013-05-21 21:56:58 <gmaxwell> it's trivial to do, but it needs eviction. the priority queuing is the first part of that... but we still need to evict independantly of the priority queue if some txn is just not confirming in it.
1836 2013-05-21 21:57:03 atweiden has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1837 2013-05-21 21:57:28 <gwillen> because otherwise the mempool is a bad model of what miners are likely to do?
1838 2013-05-21 21:57:30 <TD> gwillen: probably last N blocks
1839 2013-05-21 21:58:18 <TD> yeah exactly. it's a bit complicated. you know, let's say we fix nLockTime so it works again how it's supposed to.
1840 2013-05-21 21:58:24 mrkent has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1841 2013-05-21 21:58:29 <TD> do you include those in the calculation? if so you're back to "evil miner can fiddle with fees" again
1842 2013-05-21 21:58:35 <maaku> pulling the fee from the mempool is best for full nodes; but if there is some way to guess at what that fee is from the block history, that could be included in the UBC meta-chain for SPV clients
1843 2013-05-21 21:58:42 <TD> as they can send a lot of pending transactions that won't confirm, then double spend them away eventually.
1844 2013-05-21 21:58:47 mrkent has joined
1845 2013-05-21 21:58:47 mrkent has quit (Changing host)
1846 2013-05-21 21:58:47 mrkent has joined
1847 2013-05-21 21:58:50 <GavinAirplane> well, whoever works on it, it should be easy to make it unit-testable against data extracted from the real block chain.
1848 2013-05-21 21:58:53 <gwillen> TD: well, you don't count them until their locktime is expired, right?
1849 2013-05-21 21:59:04 <gmaxwell> TD: huh? txn that can't be mined won't be sitting in the (primary) mempool..
1850 2013-05-21 21:59:05 <gwillen> GavinAirplane: *nods*
1851 2013-05-21 21:59:09 savetheinternet has joined
1852 2013-05-21 21:59:28 ANDREW12 is now known as andrew12
1853 2013-05-21 21:59:51 <TD> there's no such thing as primary/secondary mempools in the original design, at least. that's why i'm saying it's a bit complicated. high fee transactions that depend on very low fee transactions, same thing (needs the recursive fee calculations)
1854 2013-05-21 22:00:02 <gmaxwell> TD: already lots of transactions going into blocks are based on outside of block agreements with miners, btcguild (mining blockchain.info transactions) and eligius (mining mtgox transactions) at a minimum do this.  Looking for inclusion is just not a good method. Why do we have to waste our time arguing this yet again. Nothing has changed since the last time except _more_ pools are known to have external deals now.
1855 2013-05-21 22:00:06 reizuki__ has joined
1856 2013-05-21 22:00:06 reizuki__ has quit (Changing host)
1857 2013-05-21 22:00:06 reizuki__ has joined
1858 2013-05-21 22:00:25 <GavinAirplane> gmaxwell: what percentage is "lots"  ?
1859 2013-05-21 22:00:28 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr|TD: most users should end up with pruned full nodes, at least
1860 2013-05-21 22:00:29 <gmaxwell> TD: yes, part of the mempool ranking is the child pays for parent fee ordering in thats proposed.
1861 2013-05-21 22:00:34 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr|hmm, I'm lagging I think
1862 2013-05-21 22:00:35 <MC1984> tlrobinson you need to shut down
1863 2013-05-21 22:01:02 <gmaxwell> GavinAirplane: more than half the hashrate is doing this, but I don't know what the transaction percentage is... it's not obvious in the chain. I can ask some.
1864 2013-05-21 22:01:15 <TD> luke-jr|otg: i doubt that's going to happen. it's a pain even today to wake a laptop up from sleep and have to wait whilst it grinds away catching up with the chain. 5 years from now? no chance, pruning or no.
1865 2013-05-21 22:01:24 <GavinAirplane> gmaxwell: would be good to know, if it is a tiny percentage -ENOCARE
1866 2013-05-21 22:02:02 <sipa> also, any arguing that miners should be paid by external methods outside of the fee model only makes this stronger: there will be different mechanism through which miners acquire transactions, and the mempool is only one for them: you're only interested in what those using that mechanism pay
1867 2013-05-21 22:02:13 <GavinAirplane> Do the miners doing that realize that by not broadcasting the transactions they're increasing their likelihood of being orphaned?
1868 2013-05-21 22:02:16 <TD> gmaxwell: yeah, but for mtgox at least that is due to lack of child-pays-for-parent, right? mtgox was seeing transfers in get stuck because people set the fees wrong so they need special deals to clean them up.
1869 2013-05-21 22:02:26 <sipa> i don't see why we're arguing about this either: mempools seem strictly better for measuring this than blocks
1870 2013-05-21 22:02:35 <gmaxwell> I fail to see the issue here. Using the mempool makes it match the relay rule, and as far as anyone can tell it's robust against whatever concerns. It won't work for SPV, but nor does looking at what made it into blocks work well for spv due to bloom filtering, AFAIK.
1871 2013-05-21 22:02:49 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr|GavinAirplane: not like broadcasting them all is even *possible* :/
1872 2013-05-21 22:02:59 <gmaxwell> hah. sipa darnit stop thinking the same as me.
1873 2013-05-21 22:03:02 <TD> sipa: because there's no way for a node to calculate fees based on the mempool without actually having it, which is impossible for a lot of clients.
1874 2013-05-21 22:03:18 <sipa> TD: and i don't think there's a solution for this either way
1875 2013-05-21 22:03:30 diki has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1876 2013-05-21 22:03:34 <sipa> an SPV node will need to trust some data to calculate fee policy
1877 2013-05-21 22:03:40 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr|TD: child-pays-for-parent hasn't been a lack for months; MtGox is so that they can send feeless and still get a confirm eventually AFAIK
1878 2013-05-21 22:03:53 brwyatt_ is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt_
1879 2013-05-21 22:04:02 <sipa> either it is assuming that block transactions are only acquired through the P2P mechanism, or it is trusting a node that calculates things from a mempool
1880 2013-05-21 22:04:07 <BlueMatt> TD: I would argue node's mempools should be roughly equivalent, so any outliers are pretty bad.  Barring computational integrity, I dont see much difference from the spv side of either implementation, you either ping a server (not decentralized, but more "safe") or ping your nodes and get back min fee info
1881 2013-05-21 22:04:09 <TD> luke-jr|otg: well, i mean most nodes don't have CPFP
1882 2013-05-21 22:04:31 <maaku> sipa, gmaxwell: if there were a deterministic way to estimate the fee using blockchain information only, I could add that as part of the UBC meta-chain, which would allow SPV nodes to query the current (estimated) fee securely
1883 2013-05-21 22:04:42 <gmaxwell> TD: some pools (eligius, emc, .. anyone else running luke's patches does child-pays) it's about 8% of the hashrate now?
1884 2013-05-21 22:05:10 <GavinAirplane> Somebody just go implement something already, we've been talking about this for how many years now?
1885 2013-05-21 22:05:22 michagogo has quit (Quit: goodnight)
1886 2013-05-21 22:05:33 <gmaxwell> maaku: it's really just a lot harder to make a reliable estimate based on what went in than on what stayed out.
1887 2013-05-21 22:05:37 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1888 2013-05-21 22:05:42 * BlueMatt offers 1/4-finished code if anyone wants it
1889 2013-05-21 22:05:45 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr|GavinAirplane is right.. worst case it needs improvements before releasing
1890 2013-05-21 22:05:53 <gwillen> BlueMatt: I am interested in your 1/4 finished code
1891 2013-05-21 22:06:12 <sipa> ACK; let's implement something and see how well it performs, instead of discussing without end
1892 2013-05-21 22:06:22 <gmaxwell> I don't disagree with anything ... except TD showing up back again with these assumptions that you'd use what-went-in which I thought we'd throughly hashed out before,and isn't what anyone has coded for.
1893 2013-05-21 22:06:25 <TD> well, whilst blocks aren't full and miners are using default policies there's not really any need to pay more than the min relay fees, fortunately.
1894 2013-05-21 22:06:25 <gwillen> BlueMatt: is it on github or something? Or forward info to gwillen@nerdnet.org
1895 2013-05-21 22:06:25 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr|this is an area where real-world/day-to-day testing probably will get some useful input
1896 2013-05-21 22:06:41 <BlueMatt> I think it needs rebased after gavin's latest fee stuff, though
1897 2013-05-21 22:06:43 IanCormac has joined
1898 2013-05-21 22:06:58 <gwillen> BlueMatt: *nods*
1899 2013-05-21 22:06:59 <TD> gmaxwell: because GavinAirplane was talking about that as a way to implement it, i thought - that was part of the roadmap to "fixing fees". no?
1900 2013-05-21 22:07:05 Chuky has quit (Quit: • IRcap • 8.71 •)
1901 2013-05-21 22:07:07 <TD> so it's news to me that this was already debated and decided against.
1902 2013-05-21 22:08:10 <BlueMatt> oh a related note, calculating fees from recent blocks is impossible without -txindex
1903 2013-05-21 22:08:15 <gmaxwell> News to me that anyone thought it wasn't. But we could have been hearing the same stuff and thinking it meant different things in light of different background. (though I thought you were part of that discussion before, sorry!)
1904 2013-05-21 22:08:51 <sipa> BlueMatt: in theory it could be done by using the undo data as well
1905 2013-05-21 22:08:52 * BlueMatt was /going/ to implement that as the fallback, but...it doesnt work
1906 2013-05-21 22:09:05 <BlueMatt> sipa: ahh, yes sorry could be...
1907 2013-05-21 22:09:08 <BlueMatt> hmm, well whatever
1908 2013-05-21 22:09:29 <gmaxwell> TD: I don't see any reason that SPV nodes couldn't use block (Except for bloom filtering… :( ) while full nodes uses mempool.  Except for relay misalignment but I've never seen any proposal at all that relay would work any other way than having a finite priority ordered mempool and relaying only what makes it in.
1909 2013-05-21 22:09:29 <sipa> but still, using the mempool is much cleaner
1910 2013-05-21 22:09:32 <maaku> BlueMatt: yes, but the result of the calculation (done by full nodes) can be cached and merged mined for validation
1911 2013-05-21 22:09:54 GavinAirplane has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1912 2013-05-21 22:10:08 <TD> well, yes, also the need for the full index :)
1913 2013-05-21 22:10:12 <sipa> also, how would SPV nodes get the full blocks to calculate things from?
1914 2013-05-21 22:10:21 <BlueMatt> anyone who wants memory-limited mempool and initial non-const fee stuff its at https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/commits/fees (note commits titiled f just means squashMe into...something)
1915 2013-05-21 22:10:21 <gmaxwell> if we have full nodes give their mempool fee histograms they also indicate what they're willing to relay in the process... which seems very useful and isn't so subject to manipulation.
1916 2013-05-21 22:10:22 <sipa> that means no block filtering
1917 2013-05-21 22:10:23 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr|regarding relaying blocks, it would be nice if miners could relay a template meeting maybe 25% of the full target, to get those transactions mostly-locked-in to the mempool...
1918 2013-05-21 22:10:27 <TD> perhaps the simplest solution is just to improve the anti-sybil mechanisms
1919 2013-05-21 22:10:32 <BlueMatt> gwillen: ^
1920 2013-05-21 22:10:42 <gwillen> thanks BlueMatt
1921 2013-05-21 22:10:43 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr|that way miners who accept lower fees, or non-standard txns, aren't put at a disadvantage
1922 2013-05-21 22:10:44 <TD> as the only way "ask remote nodes to give the answer" can go wrong really is if the network is flooded with sockpuppets
1923 2013-05-21 22:11:20 <gmaxwell> TD: at least in terms of relay willingness the sockpuppets could just not relay, so in that case believing their not-relay claims does you no worse.
1924 2013-05-21 22:12:02 diki has joined
1925 2013-05-21 22:12:55 Pinion has joined
1926 2013-05-21 22:13:19 Pinion is now known as Guest43355
1927 2013-05-21 22:13:24 * BlueMatt -> actually gone for the day
1928 2013-05-21 22:15:03 TD has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1929 2013-05-21 22:15:59 TD has joined
1930 2013-05-21 22:16:08 <TD> sorry. wifi outage, it seems.
1931 2013-05-21 22:16:28 rdymac has joined
1932 2013-05-21 22:16:28 rdymac has quit (Changing host)
1933 2013-05-21 22:16:28 rdymac has joined
1934 2013-05-21 22:17:37 <gmaxwell> You missed nothing except maybe
1935 2013-05-21 22:17:37 <gmaxwell> 14:48 < gmaxwell> TD: at least in terms of relay willingness the sockpuppets could just not relay, so in that case believing their not-relay claims does you no worse.
1936 2013-05-21 22:19:34 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I think you're incorrect about there being a fee bug there. in master, if (txout.nValue < CENT) is guarded by if (nMinFee < nBaseFee)  so it cannot go down there.
1937 2013-05-21 22:19:38 <TD> if nodes become more stable over time then clients giving more weight to the reports from long-lived nodes makes such attacks harder. or at least increases the window of time in which the apps can be updated in case someone does try to inflate fees that way. but i'd hope that wallets can watch their own transactions to see how fast they confirm, in case of apparent long-term disagreement between nodes
1938 2013-05-21 22:20:14 <gmaxwell> TD: p2pool does that- preferrentially connects to older nodes. Creates some load balancing issues... but yes, perhaps helpful.
1939 2013-05-21 22:20:33 <gmaxwell> At least against short lived attack-for-lulz stuff.
1940 2013-05-21 22:21:10 <TD> you only need to use the older nodes for cases where some sybil attack is plausible. you can still download filtered blocks from any node.
1941 2013-05-21 22:21:20 <TD> and that's where the bulk of the remote load comes from (filtering is expensive)
1942 2013-05-21 22:21:36 <TD> so hopefully the imbalances would not be too bad
1943 2013-05-21 22:22:50 gruez has joined
1944 2013-05-21 22:22:55 <MC1984> cant an spv reset the bloom filter to a point that effectively disables it, every now and again, to get some full block samples to claculate a fee from
1945 2013-05-21 22:23:07 <gmaxwell> MC1984: 'kinda defeats the purpose'
1946 2013-05-21 22:23:26 <sipa> also, SPV nodes by definition can't reliably maintain a mempool
1947 2013-05-21 22:23:30 <gmaxwell> If I thought that actually observing the blocks was a good approch I'd just say that we could add a network rule to disclose that information more directly.
1948 2013-05-21 22:23:37 Guest43355 has quit (Quit: Has quit)
1949 2013-05-21 22:23:44 <MC1984> it would only be long enough to get the fee, then bloom again
1950 2013-05-21 22:23:57 <MC1984> maybe i need to shut up....
1951 2013-05-21 22:24:02 <gmaxwell> and if it turns out that it is (.. uh, even though we know the current behavior is already weird, so I can't see that happening) ... it could be done in the future.
1952 2013-05-21 22:24:58 zer0def has joined
1953 2013-05-21 22:25:29 <TD> MC1984: well the issue is, as sipa observes, you need a full index
1954 2013-05-21 22:25:44 <TD> MC1984: you can't look at a tx in a block and know the fee off hand. you need all the input transactions too.
1955 2013-05-21 22:25:56 <MC1984> of course an SPV trusts its peers quite a lot any way, so why not jsut get one of them to send it a fee sample. Someone has probabyl said this already
1956 2013-05-21 22:26:01 tyn has joined
1957 2013-05-21 22:26:07 <TD> that's where we started from indeed
1958 2013-05-21 22:26:29 <sipa> TD: BlueMatt came up with the need for a txindex
1959 2013-05-21 22:26:49 <TD> sipa: ok, you need access to undo data. from a phones perspective, it has neither, so ….. similar thing
1960 2013-05-21 22:27:06 <MC1984> well shit, newer FVNs dont even have a txindex any more
1961 2013-05-21 22:27:41 <TD> that said
1962 2013-05-21 22:27:53 <TD> i think a long time ago i said in future, i see regular end users not ever attaching fees at all
1963 2013-05-21 22:27:57 <TD> or rather, not often
1964 2013-05-21 22:28:10 <TD> because they'll just send a tx direct to the merchant, who will then attach a fee with a followon transaction as appropriate.
1965 2013-05-21 22:28:15 <MC1984> so pessimistic
1966 2013-05-21 22:28:21 <sipa> TD: i like that idea, but indeed it's further in the future
1967 2013-05-21 22:28:22 <TD> for merchants with full nodes, that means there's no trust required.
1968 2013-05-21 22:28:43 <tlrobinson> so i got bitcoind running on a free heroku account haha. it's just a pain in the ass getting the blockchain on it/updated quickly
1969 2013-05-21 22:29:02 <MC1984> watch a film
1970 2013-05-21 22:29:03 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr|TD: the payment protocol allows the merchant to tell them what fee to put in the first txn
1971 2013-05-21 22:29:08 <TD> sipa: yeah, but perhaps not that much further, with the payment protocol work and perhaps bluetooth support in the android wallets. then we just need CPFP in mainline code and merchants/payment processors need to understand how to measure the fees on the uploaded transactions
1972 2013-05-21 22:29:21 Line_ has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
1973 2013-05-21 22:29:39 <helo> tlrobinson: maybe upload a fully indexed blockchain directly (from a trusted machine you control, ofc)?
1974 2013-05-21 22:29:48 <TD> luke-jr|otg: i don't think it does actually
1975 2013-05-21 22:30:15 <luke-jr> otg!~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr|gotta change planes, bbiab
1976 2013-05-21 22:30:20 <tlrobinson> helo: yeah that's what i'm trying to do. i want to automatically backup/restore to S3 or something
1977 2013-05-21 22:30:35 <gmaxwell> TD: that kind out outcome would also make the impact of starting sybils to lie to spv nodes less serious.
1978 2013-05-21 22:30:56 <tlrobinson> helo: i started by downloading the bootstrap.dat, but that still takes a couple hours
1979 2013-05-21 22:31:04 <helo> yeah :/
1980 2013-05-21 22:31:27 <gmaxwell> the leveldb files are not very portable.
1981 2013-05-21 22:31:33 <gmaxwell> they won't work between different arches.
1982 2013-05-21 22:31:35 <MC1984> whats a couple of hours vs seeing for yourself that the system is sound
1983 2013-05-21 22:31:48 <tlrobinson> helo: but it's been running for about a day now. i'm surprised it hasn't been killed, I get these warnings from heroku: Error R14 (Memory quota exceeded) Process running mem=823M(160.9%)
1984 2013-05-21 22:31:49 <gmaxwell> MC1984: he wants to copy between his own machines, I assume.
1985 2013-05-21 22:32:52 <gmaxwell> tlrobinson: you should be using 0.8.2rc if you're memory constrained.
1986 2013-05-21 22:33:01 <MC1984> gmaxwell is the worry that miners could start a load of sybils to lie to enough spvs to artificially drive up fees
1987 2013-05-21 22:33:09 <helo> tlrobinson: hah, yeah i've been abusing my 512mb vps to run... *notices mem usage is much lower than previously*
1988 2013-05-21 22:33:16 <tlrobinson> gmaxwell: ok thanks i'll give it a try
1989 2013-05-21 22:33:25 <TD> MC1984: yeah we already went around this. there doesn't seem to be a good general solution but a bunch of other things can pile up to make it probably more of a hassle than it's worth
1990 2013-05-21 22:33:35 <TD> MC1984: especially given the "trump card" of developer override.
1991 2013-05-21 22:33:39 lolcookie__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1992 2013-05-21 22:33:48 <gmaxwell> MC1984: no, there are a bunch of issues, not just dishonesty
1993 2013-05-21 22:33:53 <helo> gmaxwell: were there improvements more recent than sipa's txoptim sutff?
1994 2013-05-21 22:34:01 <helo> memory usage improvements, that is
1995 2013-05-21 22:34:08 IceLookLo has joined
1996 2013-05-21 22:34:15 <sipa> helo: no
1997 2013-05-21 22:34:19 <sipa> not afaik
1998 2013-05-21 22:34:30 <gmaxwell> MC1984: For example, already today some substantial miners mine "zero fee" transactions because they're being compenstated out of band for them in batches (or in-kind services, etc).
1999 2013-05-21 22:34:40 tyn has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2000 2013-05-21 22:34:51 <MC1984> that makes my skin itch
2001 2013-05-21 22:34:53 <helo> hmmmm... must be bad memory (in my skull)
2002 2013-05-21 22:34:56 * TD shrugs
2003 2013-05-21 22:34:57 <TD> it's not a bad thing
2004 2013-05-21 22:35:01 <gmaxwell> MC1984: so if you only look at what goes into blocks you might think you can get in low/zero fee transactions because the miners are smarter than you are.
2005 2013-05-21 22:35:15 <TD> broadcast is a convenient way to get a tx to all/most miners. but there's no particular reason it should be the only way
2006 2013-05-21 22:35:28 <gmaxwell> vs if you look at what _doesn't_ go into blocks and what you know is waiting to go into blocks thats a more reliable metric.. if it's available to you.
2007 2013-05-21 22:35:33 <MC1984> theres no way to account for private mining agreements
2008 2013-05-21 22:35:43 <sipa> MC1984: nor is there a need for it
2009 2013-05-21 22:35:44 <helo> gmaxwell: that's a good point :/
2010 2013-05-21 22:35:47 <MC1984> no automatic global way in any case
2011 2013-05-21 22:35:55 <sipa> there are just multiple ways to get transactions to miners
2012 2013-05-21 22:36:16 <sipa> p2p/mempool is one way, and within that path, we're interested in what fees are usefd
2013 2013-05-21 22:37:06 <gmaxwell> TD: yes, indeed, but failing to relay them after getting them would only drive the fees people offer down under this model. ... sounds like an incentive to relay them. (and thus improve safty against quasi-finney attacks)
2014 2013-05-21 22:37:27 <tlrobinson> will bitcoind resume processing bootstrap.dat if it's restarted part way through, or will it switch to getting blocks from the network?
2015 2013-05-21 22:37:55 <MC1984> is there an assumption that bitcoin wont necessarily be a p2p network forever?
2016 2013-05-21 22:38:10 <beethoven8201> dumb question: is the blockchain compressable? (or is the ratio like 98% or something)
2017 2013-05-21 22:38:18 <sipa> tlrobinson: it will resume
2018 2013-05-21 22:38:18 <gmaxwell> MC1984: there is an assumption that there will be many networks.
2019 2013-05-21 22:38:24 <sipa> beethoven8201: more like 60%
2020 2013-05-21 22:38:40 <gmaxwell> beethoven8201: something like xz will give you 2:1-ish... at the expense of a lot of compression and decompression time
2021 2013-05-21 22:38:58 <sipa> and loss of random-access access to blocks
2022 2013-05-21 22:39:19 <beethoven8201> sipa: ic. but you still get random access if you add some indexing right?
2023 2013-05-21 22:39:24 <gmaxwell> no.
2024 2013-05-21 22:39:37 <MC1984> ah thats something i meant to ask before, could some sort of custom segmented compression scheme by used on the chain before taking the serious route of pruning
2025 2013-05-21 22:39:42 <gmaxwell> compressing each block at a time gets far less compression.. though I don't have figures for that.
2026 2013-05-21 22:39:51 <bitexchanger> So i fired up my bitcoin client that hasnt been turned on in 4 months...after i updated the software... Now it's doing the reindexing of the blocks, but my blaa
2027 2013-05-21 22:39:57 <bitexchanger> but my balance shows as 0
2028 2013-05-21 22:40:02 <sipa> that's expected
2029 2013-05-21 22:40:03 <bitexchanger> and its all in "unconfirmed"
2030 2013-05-21 22:40:06 <bitexchanger> is that normal ?
2031 2013-05-21 22:40:13 <sipa> wait until it has reindexed
2032 2013-05-21 22:40:18 <gmaxwell> bitexchanger: it's normal for it to be zero while reindexing.
2033 2013-05-21 22:40:22 <sipa> it does say "out of sync", no?
2034 2013-05-21 22:40:30 <bitexchanger> Yes is does
2035 2013-05-21 22:40:48 <bitexchanger> scared me because before when the blockchain was out of sync it still showed it in balance
2036 2013-05-21 22:40:51 <bitexchanger> instead of unconfirmed
2037 2013-05-21 22:41:01 <bitexchanger> I guess reindexing is different ?
2038 2013-05-21 22:41:26 <sipa> well now it is years/motnths behind
2039 2013-05-21 22:41:32 k00shi has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2040 2013-05-21 22:41:33 <sipa> it just doesn't have what hasn't been indexed
2041 2013-05-21 22:41:38 DBordello has quit (Excess Flood)
2042 2013-05-21 22:41:41 <ProfMac> as it indexes a block with one of your transactions in it, I believe it will update your balance.
2043 2013-05-21 22:41:44 <sipa> usually it's just as much behind as it was when you last ran it
2044 2013-05-21 22:42:07 <bitexchanger> Its over a year behind right now
2045 2013-05-21 22:42:39 <MC1984> let it do its thing
2046 2013-05-21 22:42:45 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
2047 2013-05-21 22:43:10 taha has joined
2048 2013-05-21 22:43:18 <bitexchanger> it is crawling so slowly.. i think think it will even be done in 12 hours
2049 2013-05-21 22:43:58 DBordello has joined
2050 2013-05-21 22:44:21 atweiden has joined
2051 2013-05-21 22:44:34 <bitexchanger> dont think*
2052 2013-05-21 22:44:39 <sipa> depends on youur hardware
2053 2013-05-21 22:44:45 <MC1984> really cant wait?
2054 2013-05-21 22:44:46 <sipa> increasing dbcache helps a lot
2055 2013-05-21 22:44:52 <MC1984> 12 hours
2056 2013-05-21 22:45:09 <MC1984> go to sleep, its technically time travel
2057 2013-05-21 22:45:14 <bitexchanger> Well I wanted to buy something
2058 2013-05-21 22:45:36 <bitexchanger> but It's showing 0 balance :(
2059 2013-05-21 22:45:59 <MC1984> you can send a tx after it syncs past the block where you aquired your coins
2060 2013-05-21 22:46:08 FellowTraveler has joined
2061 2013-05-21 22:46:35 <gruez> just wondering, when's qt 5.0 support coming
2062 2013-05-21 22:46:51 <MC1984> Bram Cohen @bramcohen 20 May
2063 2013-05-21 22:46:51 <MC1984> Bitcoin mining hardware is bcrypt cracking hardware. Using bcrypt probably isn't such a hot idea any more.
2064 2013-05-21 22:46:52 <gruez> last time I checked, it was slated for 0.9.x, is this correct?
2065 2013-05-21 22:46:54 <MC1984> ok bram?
2066 2013-05-21 22:46:59 Bohren has joined
2067 2013-05-21 22:47:25 <gwillen> MC1984: I am confused by that statement
2068 2013-05-21 22:47:32 rushed has quit (Quit: rushed)
2069 2013-05-21 22:47:32 <gwillen> MC1984: bcrypt does not use SHA256 at all, does it?
2070 2013-05-21 22:47:40 <MC1984> no idea
2071 2013-05-21 22:47:42 <HM_> nope
2072 2013-05-21 22:47:50 <gmaxwell> No, it uses blowfish.
2073 2013-05-21 22:48:33 <sipa> gruez: yes
2074 2013-05-21 22:48:56 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2075 2013-05-21 22:49:00 <MC1984> J2 Labs @j2labs 20 May
2076 2013-05-21 22:49:00 <MC1984> @bramcohen The logs could easily generate rainbow tables.
2077 2013-05-21 22:49:02 <MC1984> wat
2078 2013-05-21 22:49:02 <gruez> sipa: i'm guessing 0.9.x is for late june?
2079 2013-05-21 22:49:42 <sipa> gruez: no clue
2080 2013-05-21 22:49:53 <FellowTraveler> Hello all.  I have recently (with randy-waterhouse) come to a certain HOLY GRAIL by combining Open-Transactions with Bitmessage. (The grail being P2P trading across OT federated servers.)
2081 2013-05-21 22:49:54 <ProfMac> bitexchanger: you can drop your wallet into blockchain.info and spend from there.
2082 2013-05-21 22:49:54 <FellowTraveler> I thought you guys might want to see the write-up.  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=212490.0
2083 2013-05-21 22:50:37 <FellowTraveler> That is all.
2084 2013-05-21 22:50:38 FellowTraveler has left ()
2085 2013-05-21 22:51:04 <MC1984> opentransactions is legit right?
2086 2013-05-21 22:51:30 <nsh> it doesn't get much more legit than the grail of the true christ, MC1984
2087 2013-05-21 22:51:35 <gmaxwell> :-/ unless bitmessage got rewritten it doesn't use a blockchain at all, and doesn't provide strong antijammability, which is actually a property thats important for his application... oh well.
2088 2013-05-21 22:51:42 <MC1984> teehee
2089 2013-05-21 22:51:42 <gmaxwell> MC1984: it's a legit effort at least!
2090 2013-05-21 22:51:56 <MC1984> does it work
2091 2013-05-21 22:52:55 <MC1984> Bram Cohen @bramcohen 17 May
2092 2013-05-21 22:52:55 <MC1984> Is Bitcoin mining more or less environmentally destructive than gold mining?
2093 2013-05-21 22:53:01 <gmaxwell> open transactions? it's not clear. I've never actually had a conversation with someone who says they've used it for anything. (except perhaps FellowTraveler) And when I've looked at it...
2094 2013-05-21 22:53:03 <MC1984> why does bram kinda like trolling bitcoin....
2095 2013-05-21 22:53:32 <MC1984> ok
2096 2013-05-21 22:54:22 <nsh> lexical proximity breeds contempt
2097 2013-05-21 22:54:54 <MC1984> s funny cos i read once that jimmy wales resents wikileaks
2098 2013-05-21 22:54:58 <jspilman> thinking about double spend propagation -- it seems like a fine line between propagating and replace-by-fee...
2099 2013-05-21 22:55:04 <MC1984> resents the name lol
2100 2013-05-21 22:55:25 <gmaxwell> MC1984: he doesn't like it, no. But I dunno that the name is more than a pratical annoyance.
2101 2013-05-21 22:55:42 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, OT is complicated
2102 2013-05-21 22:55:48 <phantomcircuit> and isn't well explained anywhere
2103 2013-05-21 22:55:55 <amiller> maaku, i just noticed you got a grant from satoshidice to work on merkle utxo :O
2104 2013-05-21 22:56:00 <phantomcircuit> and still relies on various pseudo central authorities
2105 2013-05-21 22:56:05 <gmaxwell> (the name is problematic, in that it's caused wikimedia staff to get detained entering the US, it's made donors who don't like wikileaks angry, it's caused a lot of confused press questions, etc)
2106 2013-05-21 22:56:06 <MC1984> ive personally seen people conflating wikileaks and wikipedia fwiw
2107 2013-05-21 22:56:08 <MC1984> but meh
2108 2013-05-21 22:56:37 <maaku> amiller: yup :) I'm wrapping up some contracting work now, but that will start in June
2109 2013-05-21 22:56:46 <gmaxwell> MC1984: yea, but it's just a pratical annoyance... I wouldn't have described it as resents.
2110 2013-05-21 22:56:54 <sipa> amiller: apparently, Michael Gronager (libcoin guy) has already implemented a merkle UTXO tree
2111 2013-05-21 22:57:01 <amiller> really where
2112 2013-05-21 22:57:05 <MC1984> caused wikimedia staff to get detained? Thats unbelievable.....
2113 2013-05-21 22:57:06 <sipa> amiller: without having heard of all the existing ideas around it
2114 2013-05-21 22:57:10 <gmaxwell> ^ so you now have to do better than 2gbytes of core for the utxo set. :P
2115 2013-05-21 22:57:13 <sipa> amiller: i haven't seen the implementation
2116 2013-05-21 22:57:31 <TD> gmaxwell: according to fellowtravallers post, bitmessage does use a block chain now
2117 2013-05-21 22:57:36 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, sadly that's 100% believable
2118 2013-05-21 22:57:52 <MC1984> well, yes quite so
2119 2013-05-21 22:57:57 <MC1984> but i am aghast all the same
2120 2013-05-21 22:58:19 <gmaxwell> TD: I saw the post— thats why I commented—  but I think it's incorrect. (giving a glance at the current code and changelog)
2121 2013-05-21 22:58:26 one_zero has joined
2122 2013-05-21 22:58:27 <TD> oh
2123 2013-05-21 22:58:49 * TD -> out for a bit
2124 2013-05-21 22:59:12 <maaku> sipa: thanks I'll contact Michael Gronager
2125 2013-05-21 23:00:22 <jspilman> do you think we'll see double spend propagation enabled in the near future?
2126 2013-05-21 23:00:30 <sipa> jspilman: yes
2127 2013-05-21 23:00:57 <gmaxwell> jspilman: "enabled" ... you mean a feature for it written?
2128 2013-05-21 23:01:05 <jspilman> indeed
2129 2013-05-21 23:01:08 <gmaxwell> K.
2130 2013-05-21 23:01:16 <sipa> 1000.
2131 2013-05-21 23:01:28 <MC1984> SD is bankrolling UTXO work?
2132 2013-05-21 23:01:52 <MC1984> what, rather than just not mak loads of dust for no reason?
2133 2013-05-21 23:02:05 <gmaxwell> "Why not both?"
2134 2013-05-21 23:02:20 <MC1984> indeed
2135 2013-05-21 23:02:38 <jspilman> would you have to write code to ensure the first spend is advertised to a new peer before a double spend, or do you get that 'for free'?
2136 2013-05-21 23:02:50 enikanorov has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2137 2013-05-21 23:02:53 <sipa> maaku: which features do you aim for? (afaik, there are 4 proposed use cases: SPV-level trust fast bootstrap of fully validating nodes, light node balance lookup, constant-space trusted storage validation, lightweight fraud proofs)
2138 2013-05-21 23:03:02 <gmaxwell> I think that part isn't a problem. The only thing that I think requires work is just making sure it's not a DOS mechenism.
2139 2013-05-21 23:03:21 <tlrobinson> bitcoind doesn't support the JSON-RPC interface over unix domain sockets, does it?
2140 2013-05-21 23:03:57 <maaku> sipa: all of the above, but prioritizing the balance/fraud proofs
2141 2013-05-21 23:04:04 <phantomcircuit> tlrobinson, no it does not
2142 2013-05-21 23:04:06 enikanorov has joined
2143 2013-05-21 23:04:13 <sipa> maaku: so you also need a an address-based lookup tree
2144 2013-05-21 23:05:00 <maaku> yes, I will be using the hybrid PATRICIA trie described here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=88208.msg970010#msg970010
2145 2013-05-21 23:05:29 metabyte has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2146 2013-05-21 23:05:36 <sipa> that one only supports light node balance lookup afaik
2147 2013-05-21 23:05:39 <sipa> and none of the others
2148 2013-05-21 23:05:49 metabyte has joined
2149 2013-05-21 23:06:00 <gmaxwell> In particular, it cannot be used for validation.
2150 2013-05-21 23:07:15 <gmaxwell> And, at least as of today I would oppose ever making such an (a useless for validation 'balance' lookup) index a network rule. Which means there may be very little motivation to commit an honest one. :(  (of course, no reason things can't be built for testing and expirementation!)
2151 2013-05-21 23:07:20 <maaku> gmaxwell: that's not being fair, as you are being very nihilistic about the motivations of miners
2152 2013-05-21 23:07:25 <jspilman> I don't understand how propagation is orthogonal to replace-by-fee, it seems like propagation is effectively endorsing replace-by-fee?
2153 2013-05-21 23:08:00 <sipa> maaku: ? it's just a fact that it cannot be used for validation
2154 2013-05-21 23:08:04 <maaku> sipa: combined with a merged-mined meta-chain containing the tree, it supports all 4 use cases that you mentioned
2155 2013-05-21 23:08:16 <gmaxwell> maaku: okay, I promise to you that whatever you implement like that at least 1% of the hashrate will mine invalid ones. I'll even enter into a large value bet of that if you like.
2156 2013-05-21 23:08:49 <sipa> maaku: maybe i haven't followed up recently, but is there a way in it to lookup unspent outputds by txid, without knowing the address/outscript?
2157 2013-05-21 23:08:50 * nsh volunteers to hold wagers
2158 2013-05-21 23:09:00 <gmaxwell> nsh: nonsense, we have escrow transactions.
2159 2013-05-21 23:09:21 <nsh> i wanna hold things!
2160 2013-05-21 23:09:25 <maaku> sipa: it's a separate index in addition to what ultraprune already does
2161 2013-05-21 23:09:26 <gmaxwell> (my opinion might change on the usefulness of making such an index a network rule though!  part of what might change it is seeing that its cheap to operate!)
2162 2013-05-21 23:09:36 <sipa> maaku: not an answer to my question
2163 2013-05-21 23:09:50 <nsh> question: what exactly are the patent/nonfree issues with openssl's ECC implementation?
2164 2013-05-21 23:10:07 <sipa> maaku: last i checked, it was purely a by-address index, and that's not enough for validation purposes
2165 2013-05-21 23:10:41 <gmaxwell> nsh: there are a number of (valid? who knows) patents on optimizations for ECC over characteristic 2 fields (not what we use) that apparently openssl has and doesn't have an option to exclude except by excluding all ecc.
2166 2013-05-21 23:10:48 <sipa> ultraprune does not have a normative merkle root for the chainstate
2167 2013-05-21 23:10:52 <gmaxwell> nsh: in an abundance of caution redhat removes all ecc.
2168 2013-05-21 23:11:02 <sipa> and imho that should be the first priority
2169 2013-05-21 23:11:12 <maaku> sipa: that's what this proposal is..
2170 2013-05-21 23:11:19 <nsh> gmaxwell, right. so no particular threat of IP action if someone implements bitcoin ECC functionality afresh
2171 2013-05-21 23:11:22 <maaku> a normative merkle root for the ultraprune chain state
2172 2013-05-21 23:11:24 <sipa> maaku: no, it's a by-address index, not a by-txid one :)
2173 2013-05-21 23:11:45 <sipa> s/index/tree/
2174 2013-05-21 23:11:47 <jspilman> on the mailing list seemed like initial response was 'we don't have concensus on replace-by-fee' but apparently there is concensus on double spend propagation? doesn't one imply the other?
2175 2013-05-21 23:11:48 <gmaxwell> A by-address index is not usable for validation or fraud/inflation proofs.
2176 2013-05-21 23:11:54 <maaku> yes, but you can re-index one to create the other
2177 2013-05-21 23:12:03 <sipa> maaku: that's pointless
2178 2013-05-21 23:12:09 <gmaxwell> jspilman: you can have alerts about double spends without relaying the double spend itself.
2179 2013-05-21 23:12:15 <maaku> they are useful for answering different queries
2180 2013-05-21 23:12:23 <sipa> maaku: it would mean you need the entire tree as a fraud proof
2181 2013-05-21 23:12:48 <nsh> "Certicom holds U.S. Patent 6,141,420 on techniques for compressing elliptic curve point representations."  hmmm
2182 2013-05-21 23:12:53 <gmaxwell> jspilman: you can also relay a double spend itself without selecting it for the mempool.
2183 2013-05-21 23:13:10 <jspilman> gmaxwell: Quinn described an alert structure, he claimed that could only be spoofed if you could find a prior tx in the blockchain with same inputs AND same outputs -- but from what I can tell, you can spoof given any address reuse
2184 2013-05-21 23:13:14 <gmaxwell> nsh: yes, and thats not relevant to what we do.
2185 2013-05-21 23:13:15 <sipa> maaku: i've suggested to etotheipi before (and iirc he agreed with that, but i may be mistaken) to first have a by-txid index to unspent outputs, and then a second tree that can be merged-mined with an address-to-txids index
2186 2013-05-21 23:13:19 <nsh> gmaxwell, ok
2187 2013-05-21 23:13:22 <maaku> sipa: i think we mean things by fraud proof
2188 2013-05-21 23:13:37 <gmaxwell> nsh: what we do was disclosed in the lit in something like 1988 or so. See the IETF ECC basics RFC.
2189 2013-05-21 23:13:46 <gmaxwell> (DJB also has a nice patents page)
2190 2013-05-21 23:13:47 <nsh> will do
2191 2013-05-21 23:13:50 <nsh> ty
2192 2013-05-21 23:14:01 nsillik has joined
2193 2013-05-21 23:14:09 <jspilman> gmaxwell: from what I can tell, the best you can do with an alert is know there was address reuse, unless you are also willing to index all prior sighashes
2194 2013-05-21 23:14:14 <maaku> sipa: yes, this proposal requires the the by-txid and a 2nd address-to-txid index
2195 2013-05-21 23:14:41 <sipa> amiller, maaku: afaik, Michael Gronager's implementation was a fully-in-RAM patricia tree with a txid-to-unspent-outputs tree
2196 2013-05-21 23:14:55 <gmaxwell> sipa: thats what I heard him say.
2197 2013-05-21 23:14:59 <sipa> maaku: ah, so it does have a by-txid index; in that case i take my words back
2198 2013-05-21 23:15:15 <sipa> maaku: i must admit i haven't read it recently
2199 2013-05-21 23:15:42 <gmaxwell> there appears to be nothing in that particular post about a by-txid index but perhaps I'm missing it!
2200 2013-05-21 23:15:49 <sipa> indeed, i can't see it either
2201 2013-05-21 23:15:58 nsillik has quit (Client Quit)
2202 2013-05-21 23:16:23 <jspilman> gmaxwell: if you do relay the entire tx, I would not expect miners to leave higher fees out of the mempool
2203 2013-05-21 23:16:31 <gmaxwell> maaku: your by txid tree should also probably carry child sums in the interior nodes too.. so that the root proves the total supply of coin. Should have basically no additional cost.
2204 2013-05-21 23:16:34 gruez has quit (Quit: Page closed)
2205 2013-05-21 23:16:51 <gmaxwell> jspilman: minds differ on that.
2206 2013-05-21 23:16:57 <sipa> yeah, you need that for proof of inflation fraud
2207 2013-05-21 23:16:59 nsillik has joined
2208 2013-05-21 23:17:20 <maaku> gmaxwell: it's burried somewhere in the thread
2209 2013-05-21 23:17:24 <gmaxwell> jspilman: I don't think that anyone who believes that to be true would strongly oppose going to replace-by-fee by default.
2210 2013-05-21 23:17:51 SteveDekorte has quit (Quit: SteveDekorte)
2211 2013-05-21 23:17:51 <gmaxwell> maaku: you understand the merkle sum tree idea?
2212 2013-05-21 23:18:22 <maaku> gmaxwell: yes, and alan agrees on the child-sums; it does conflict with an interest-bearing colored coin proposal I have though
2213 2013-05-21 23:18:30 <maaku> but if there is demand for the merkle-sums I will include them
2214 2013-05-21 23:19:01 nsillik has quit (Client Quit)
2215 2013-05-21 23:19:45 <gmaxwell> maaku: You would propose to change the value of third party utxo?
2216 2013-05-21 23:19:46 <jspilman> gmaxwell: it seems that differing opinions on how miners will act is the only thing making them non-equivocal
2217 2013-05-21 23:20:33 <maaku> "third party utxo"?
2218 2013-05-21 23:20:37 <gmaxwell> jspilman: No, if the defaults turn on replace by fee then it pretty much forces that outcome.
2219 2013-05-21 23:20:56 <gmaxwell> maaku: As the forum trolls would put it: "Do you intend to steal other peoples money?"
2220 2013-05-21 23:21:31 <sipa> gmaxwell: i have no clue what you're talking about
2221 2013-05-21 23:21:37 <gmaxwell> (because if the answer is yes I'm going to strongly encourage you to give up those ideas for Bitcoin— or to at least, if you won't take my word for it, try to argue it in public and realize that people will not accept it)
2222 2013-05-21 23:21:41 nsillik has joined
2223 2013-05-21 23:22:04 <gmaxwell> sipa: maaku says committing the value of the whole utxo is incompatible with a "an interest-bearing colored coin proposal"
2224 2013-05-21 23:22:12 <gmaxwell> And so I assume that means some kind of demurrage.
2225 2013-05-21 23:22:19 <maaku> or positive interest
2226 2013-05-21 23:22:25 <maaku> from a bond, for example
2227 2013-05-21 23:22:30 <jspilman> gmaxwell: right, and without said defaults, whether you 'get' replace-by-fee comes down to miner preference
2228 2013-05-21 23:23:03 sgstair has joined
2229 2013-05-21 23:23:31 <gmaxwell> jspilman: I still think you're conflating things. Even if the network never relays the stuff, if the miners do replace by fee then we have replace by fee: if nothing else people who want to replace (theieves) can connect directly to miners.
2230 2013-05-21 23:24:30 <gmaxwell> maaku: so you'd have some transaction with outputs that O(>1) cost that broadcasts into existing utxo?  uh. interesting. I'd have to see more to comment.
2231 2013-05-21 23:24:38 wrabbit has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2232 2013-05-21 23:25:00 <gmaxwell> In any case, making utxo proofs of non-inflation usless would be a very very high cost for it.
2233 2013-05-21 23:25:49 savetheinternet has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2234 2013-05-21 23:25:57 wrabbit has joined
2235 2013-05-21 23:26:05 <gmaxwell> maaku: but so long as you grok the sum stuff, thats fine. I only brought it up because I hoped you wouldn't design something grossly incompatible with it.
2236 2013-05-21 23:26:10 ghash has quit ()
2237 2013-05-21 23:26:12 Aurigae has left ()
2238 2013-05-21 23:26:50 <maaku> well i understand what's being asked for, but what's the use case?
2239 2013-05-21 23:27:29 <sipa> maaku: being able to have a small proof that a miner exceeded the inflation rules (has a coinbase that outputs more than subsidy+fees)
2240 2013-05-21 23:27:40 <gmaxwell> making it so that clients that don't store a full copy of the utxo set can validate that blocks do not inflate the supply of bitcoin.
2241 2013-05-21 23:28:15 Tritonio has joined
2242 2013-05-21 23:29:07 <jspilman> gmaxwell: replacement can happen without double-spent prop, certainly. will it happen more with double-spend prop? all I'm looking for is that devs have considered the possibility that double-propagation could increase replacement, and decided the trade-off is well worth it
2243 2013-05-21 23:29:08 <gmaxwell> It means you can do stochastic validation of coin supply and fees. e.g. instead of validating everything you validate 1/1000th (for perhaps a 100x speedup) and if you find a problem you broacast a message pointing out where the problem was and everyone can see it for themselves.
2244 2013-05-21 23:29:48 <gmaxwell> jspilman: increase _malicious_ replacement? I actually think it's fairly weakly related. It's very easy to just relay a transaction to most of the listening nodes.
2245 2013-05-21 23:30:02 <gmaxwell> and a malicious party would obviously do that.
2246 2013-05-21 23:30:26 <jspilman> gmaxwell: right now you'll get disconnected for relaying a double-spend I think
2247 2013-05-21 23:31:04 <gmaxwell> nah.
2248 2013-05-21 23:31:19 <maaku> ah so the SPV client would just validate the paths it traverses (and maybe a few random ones), then broadcast a fraud if/when it finds one?
2249 2013-05-21 23:31:42 <gmaxwell> maaku: exactly.
2250 2013-05-21 23:31:58 <jspilman> gmaxwell: bitcoind v0.8.1 was disconnecting me for 'misbehaving' during some testing, but I could have misread the debug log
2251 2013-05-21 23:32:35 <maaku> ok i see that, although to pull it off you'd need to compromise the meta-chain, but yes that has some utility
2252 2013-05-21 23:33:07 <jspilman> gmaxwell: would you also support a policy to orphan blocks that included a propagated double spend?
2253 2013-05-21 23:33:07 <gmaxwell> maaku: the attack this defends against is dishonest miners. (perhaps a small number who have partitioned some spv nodes, or the whole network)
2254 2013-05-21 23:33:25 taha has quit (Quit: iyi geceler)
2255 2013-05-21 23:33:48 <gmaxwell> maaku: defending against things like miner based inflation is part of what creates the incentives to keep miners more honest. E.g. not only do we hope them to be honest but we hope that the fact that being dishonest can do as little as possible helps make the first hope true. :)
2256 2013-05-21 23:34:09 <maaku> i see
2257 2013-05-21 23:34:27 <gmaxwell> jspilman: no. Bad for consensus, also engineering complexity. It would need a lot of care to avoid it being a wedge for weird malicious behaviors.
2258 2013-05-21 23:34:29 <IanCormac> Can you explain what you mean by "miner based inflation"
2259 2013-05-21 23:35:42 <maaku> IanCormac: the miner simply inserting unspent TxOuts into the meta-chain used by SPV+ clients in Alan's proposal
2260 2013-05-21 23:35:59 <IanCormac> Oh, gotcha
2261 2013-05-21 23:36:06 <IanCormac> I thought you meant monetary inflation :p
2262 2013-05-21 23:36:19 <sipa> IanCormac: indeed, that's what it is
2263 2013-05-21 23:36:23 <maaku> well, that would be the result
2264 2013-05-21 23:36:26 <jspilman> sounds more like counterfeiting
2265 2013-05-21 23:36:29 <IanCormac> wait, how?
2266 2013-05-21 23:36:40 <nsh> *commoditary inflation
2267 2013-05-21 23:36:41 <gmaxwell> IanCormac: "It's really said that Bob accidentally sent all his bitcoins to 1bitcoineater ... lets all get togeather and make some new coins from thin air to replace them"  ... to ... "fees don't pay enough to keep roofs over miners heads.. the union of concerned miners say 100 BTC subsidy!" ... to ... "We've isolated bobs nodes, lets mine some blocks that pay us 1000000 BTC and then spend them with bob" (so you don't even need coin to double
2268 2013-05-21 23:36:44 <sipa> IanCormac: adding txouts = adding coins that can be spent, which didn't exist
2269 2013-05-21 23:37:01 <gmaxwell> s/said/sad/
2270 2013-05-21 23:37:30 <IanCormac> Oh, is this a flaw in the SPV+ clients? I don't see how that would work normally
2271 2013-05-21 23:37:59 <nsh> IanCormac, when information is not fully preserved there is scope to fill in the blanks
2272 2013-05-21 23:38:11 <IanCormac> OK, understood
2273 2013-05-21 23:38:16 <sipa> IanCormac: we're not talking about a currently existing system
2274 2013-05-21 23:38:25 <IanCormac> Gotcha, that had me confused for a second
2275 2013-05-21 23:38:28 <gmaxwell> IanCormac: it's a limitation of SPV that can be corrected with a soft forking change. Its also a limitation in SPV-bootstrapped full nodes (something that doesn't exist yet).
2276 2013-05-21 23:39:23 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the key there is for SPV nodes to completely avoid being partitioned
2277 2013-05-21 23:40:01 <phantomcircuit> currently if you partition a node it's theoretically a problem but in actual practice not really (you still need TONS of mining power to generate that 1 block that's a fork)
2278 2013-05-21 23:40:16 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: it's not just partitioning, that was only one example. If you accept a future where all the 'people' run SPV nodes then there can be political reason to inflate the coin. Making it trivial for SPV nodes to catch that is nice protection against that future.
2279 2013-05-21 23:40:31 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: you actually don't need any mining power if you're a network level attacker.
2280 2013-05-21 23:40:39 <gmaxwell> well to inflate you do.
2281 2013-05-21 23:40:46 <The_Fly> question, for multiwallet, do you think we'll need some kind of security model. i can see a benefit from allowing definitions in bitcoind.conf which restrict wallet access to certain users
2282 2013-05-21 23:40:47 suporte85 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2283 2013-05-21 23:40:56 <The_Fly> and perhaps only allow certain ops
2284 2013-05-21 23:41:12 <sipa> The_Fly: there was one proposal where you'd have different rpc user/passwords, each mapping to a wallet
2285 2013-05-21 23:41:19 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, if you partition a validating node you still need mining power or the ability to wait a very very long time
2286 2013-05-21 23:41:20 <The_Fly> yes, how about keys
2287 2013-05-21 23:41:29 <sipa> The_Fly: though that's not what is currently implemented in the (outdated) pullreq
2288 2013-05-21 23:41:29 <jspilman> gmaxwell: so if I summed up the position -- the same incentives that keep miners from mining double spends exist with or without propagation, and the current lack of propagation doesn't factor into those incentives, hence why Gavin says its orthogonal
2289 2013-05-21 23:41:30 <The_Fly> do we even need those?
2290 2013-05-21 23:41:35 <gmaxwell> The_Fly: I don't think the core team currently wants to invest any effort in rpc isolation. Its easy to get wrong. We'd rather multiprocess the wallet and then you'd isolate by running multiple totally seperate wallets.
2291 2013-05-21 23:41:36 <sipa> The_Fly: which keys?
2292 2013-05-21 23:41:57 <The_Fly> sipa: i know it's dated, which is why im asking about it
2293 2013-05-21 23:42:08 Muis has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2294 2013-05-21 23:42:15 DBordello has quit (Excess Flood)
2295 2013-05-21 23:42:25 <gmaxwell> jspilman: Yes, and I'd add— that the argument that maybe it matters only holds if you take the position that miners will replace-by-fee eventually. And if thats true, we'll almost certantly make that default, because we can't stop them and consistency has value.
2296 2013-05-21 23:42:48 <The_Fly> and im referring to hypothetical keys, for auth
2297 2013-05-21 23:42:52 <sipa> The_Fly: what do you mean by 'keys' ?
2298 2013-05-21 23:42:56 <sipa> passwords?
2299 2013-05-21 23:43:00 <The_Fly> hmm, by the sounds of it the consensus is that it would be too heavy-weight maybe
2300 2013-05-21 23:43:06 <sipa> wallet encryption passphrases?
2301 2013-05-21 23:43:12 <gmaxwell> the argument against replace by fee is almost purely "miners won't actually do that in large numbers— unless its made a default— because its bad for bitcoin"
2302 2013-05-21 23:43:14 <The_Fly> rpc connection auth
2303 2013-05-21 23:43:20 jtimon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2304 2013-05-21 23:43:29 <gmaxwell> (and I don't mean to sound like I disagree with that argument. I believe it is currently largely true)
2305 2013-05-21 23:43:29 DBordello has joined
2306 2013-05-21 23:43:33 rushed has joined
2307 2013-05-21 23:43:51 <gmaxwell> (I am less convinced that it is true forever. Or that fee replacement is all that bad.)
2308 2013-05-21 23:44:18 altgribble has quit (Quit: Be right back ;))
2309 2013-05-21 23:44:38 <maaku> gmaxwell: i just figured out how to do running balances with my interest colored coin proposal, so i no longer have any objections at all :P
2310 2013-05-21 23:44:39 <sipa> it's too different security models the system aims for
2311 2013-05-21 23:44:48 <sipa> and one has stronger guarantees but less functionality
2312 2013-05-21 23:44:51 <gmaxwell> maaku: <3
2313 2013-05-21 23:45:11 <The_Fly> rpc is over raw tcp atm
2314 2013-05-21 23:45:17 <sipa> maaku: note that you don't need sumtrees for the by-address index
2315 2013-05-21 23:45:41 <The_Fly> sorry, http req
2316 2013-05-21 23:45:53 <The_Fly> with basic auth
2317 2013-05-21 23:46:09 <gmaxwell> The_Fly: you can also use ssl.. but we generally discourage running the rpc across a network.
2318 2013-05-21 23:46:13 skajake has joined
2319 2013-05-21 23:46:15 <The_Fly> yes, definitely
2320 2013-05-21 23:46:23 <The_Fly> so the only concern is if an internal box becomes comprimised
2321 2013-05-21 23:46:31 <The_Fly> to limit theft of funds in other wallets, say
2322 2013-05-21 23:46:45 <The_Fly> is the most basic example
2323 2013-05-21 23:47:18 <The_Fly> there's not much use if they snort your bitcoind rpc traffic
2324 2013-05-21 23:47:20 <nsh> (there's a reason they're called rlocal procedure calls)
2325 2013-05-21 23:47:28 <The_Fly> other than they might discover addresses you were keeping private, right
2326 2013-05-21 23:47:30 <gmaxwell> nsh: hehe.
2327 2013-05-21 23:47:57 <The_Fly> again, not something to worry about too much
2328 2013-05-21 23:48:57 GeekMan has joined
2329 2013-05-21 23:49:02 GeekMan has left ()
2330 2013-05-21 23:49:08 <The_Fly> i suppose this could be added as a layer of auth before bitcoind
2331 2013-05-21 23:49:29 <jspilman> I think double-spend prop will be largely misunderstood by users, perhaps even more misunderstood than the DUST policy, and merits some very careful communication
2332 2013-05-21 23:50:01 <maaku> sipa: well there might be value to having a balance in the address/script leaf
2333 2013-05-21 23:52:19 <The_Fly> gmaxwell: what did you mean by "We'd rather multiprocess the wallet, and run totally separate wallets" did you mean separate bitcoind instances?
2334 2013-05-21 23:52:23 <The_Fly> per wallet.
2335 2013-05-21 23:52:28 nba_btchip has joined
2336 2013-05-21 23:52:37 <gmaxwell> jspilman: I think my position now is mostly at "I think we'll hold the current default behavior, add alerts (which may actually facilitate some replacing miners).. and if turns out miners patch to replace by fee in non-trivial numbers we'd consider making it a default"
2337 2013-05-21 23:53:10 <gmaxwell> I don't know what other people think. I know TD is strongly opposed to replace by fee.
2338 2013-05-21 23:53:13 <The_Fly> the wallet(s) are still multiprocessed
2339 2013-05-21 23:53:39 <The_Fly> the plan is timed flush on each wallet (as in ThreadFlushWalletDB)
2340 2013-05-21 23:53:52 <The_Fly> and rpc rescan on one/all wallets
2341 2013-05-21 23:54:06 <gmaxwell> The_Fly: no, we have vague plans that eventually bitcoind and the wallet(s) are seperate process... and the wallets talk to bitcoind.
2342 2013-05-21 23:54:15 <The_Fly> aha i see
2343 2013-05-21 23:54:20 <The_Fly> vague plans :)
2344 2013-05-21 23:54:45 <jspilman> I guess all the more reason to get some trusted 3rd party services out there which will do 2of2 green addresses and guaranteed instant confirmation with no double spend :-)
2345 2013-05-21 23:54:48 <gmaxwell> And there could be multiple wallets inside a wallet process. etc. But then you could have wallet isolation at the rpc level by just running seperate tasks.
2346 2013-05-21 23:54:59 <The_Fly> i have already a frankenstinian combination of the zmq branch, and using message-pass to send the events to a rabbitmq exchange
2347 2013-05-21 23:55:07 suporte85 has joined
2348 2013-05-21 23:55:15 <The_Fly> and on the other side had wallet-related transactions stored in mongodb
2349 2013-05-21 23:55:25 <The_Fly> index txid, erm..
2350 2013-05-21 23:55:43 <gmaxwell> jspilman: ugh. green addresses are yuck... terrible for privacy. It's trivial to just have an external signature on the transaction. Then the public can't seen the greenness only the parties to the txn.
2351 2013-05-21 23:56:02 <jspilman> maybe I mis-used the term 'green address'
2352 2013-05-21 23:56:06 <gmaxwell> OKAY
2353 2013-05-21 23:56:09 <The_Fly> message-pass --input ZeroMQ --input_options '{"connect":"tcp://192.168.0.102:12345"}' --output AMQP --output_options '{"exchange_name":"test","exchange_durable":1,"hostname":"127.0.0.1","username":"guest","password":"guest", "queue_name":"test", "queue_durable": 1}'
2354 2013-05-21 23:56:37 <jspilman> gmaxwell: external sig - as in a 3rd party signing a 2of2, yes?
2355 2013-05-21 23:57:12 <The_Fly> and can patch message-pass to specify message delivery_mode: 2
2356 2013-05-21 23:57:14 <The_Fly> for persistence
2357 2013-05-21 23:57:16 <jspilman> gmaxwell: or you're talking about funds held BY the 3rd party, and the sig is just attesting to that
2358 2013-05-21 23:57:26 Muis has joined
2359 2013-05-21 23:57:48 <gmaxwell> jspilman: maybe it's a 2 of 2... maybe the green signer owns one of the inputs. Maybe they own all of them. The key is that the identifyable signature isn't inside the txn, it's around it... like a signmessage of the txid. "I won't doublespend txid12345 --signed mtgox"
2360 2013-05-21 23:58:06 BurtyBB has joined
2361 2013-05-21 23:58:07 <gmaxwell> the idea is that the external signature is a generic mechnism that works regardless of how the funds are handled.
2362 2013-05-21 23:58:09 resinate has joined
2363 2013-05-21 23:58:15 <The_Fly> and then have script pulling the messages off, and db insert... followed by ACK
2364 2013-05-21 23:58:16 <jspilman> ack
2365 2013-05-21 23:58:18 <gmaxwell> And can be kept private between the three parties in question.
2366 2013-05-21 23:58:23 Skav has joined
2367 2013-05-21 23:59:06 wrabbit has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2368 2013-05-21 23:59:07 <mrkent> how does one write a script for multi-destination transaction? For example, if i wanted to bet on multiple sdice bets at once
2369 2013-05-21 23:59:20 wrabbit has joined
2370 2013-05-21 23:59:22 KevinT has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
2371 2013-05-21 23:59:28 <The_Fly> have node-amqp for pulling messages off and performing db insert
2372 2013-05-21 23:59:33 <gmaxwell> mrkent: the gui lets you have multiple outputs.. or sendmany from the rpc. it's not a script that accomplishes that.
2373 2013-05-21 23:59:45 <gmaxwell> mrkent: and if you want to throw away your money, feel free to send it to me instead.
2374 2013-05-21 23:59:45 <The_Fly> so something like this, although a bit overkill, is scaleable