1 2013-05-22 00:00:23 MobPhone has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
   2 2013-05-22 00:00:24 <The_Fly> lol gmaxwell
   3 2013-05-22 00:00:38 <The_Fly> he wants a gamble
   4 2013-05-22 00:00:54 <mrkent> gmaxwell, what odds do you offer?
   5 2013-05-22 00:01:11 BurtyB has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
   6 2013-05-22 00:01:37 <The_Fly> gmaxwell: is there thought on what you'll use for ipc between these processes?
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   9 2013-05-22 00:02:16 <gmaxwell> mrkent: like satoshi dice, I promise that sending me money has negative direct expectation. However, I do a lot more work keeping bitcoin running than sdice does, so perhaps you'll enjoy some external benefit. :P  (well, sounds like with maaku sdice might be funding some good work)
  10 2013-05-22 00:02:59 <gmaxwell> The_Fly: the p2p protocol mostly, in fact. Though maybe we would have some extensions for some operations which are too costly to make available to the public. E.g. txindex stuff. though those might just go over the regular rpc.
  11 2013-05-22 00:03:21 <The_Fly> how much do these separate processes need to know
  12 2013-05-22 00:03:24 <mrkent> gmaxwell, whats maaku?
  13 2013-05-22 00:03:30 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
  14 2013-05-22 00:03:34 <The_Fly> are you intending for them to sign transactions and send them to the pain process?
  15 2013-05-22 00:03:50 <The_Fly> if they are just light-weight p2p nodes i guess they can publish themselves
  16 2013-05-22 00:04:03 <The_Fly> so you are just keeping the blockchain in one place
  17 2013-05-22 00:04:10 * nsh adds "pain process" to mental list of software freudian slips
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  22 2013-05-22 00:05:58 <The_Fly> multiwallet on one bitcoind is working, minus flushing (i assume that's pretty critical)... bit it seems to operate
  23 2013-05-22 00:06:08 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  24 2013-05-22 00:06:09 <The_Fly> all it does is add a little overhead when processing transactions
  25 2013-05-22 00:06:15 whiterab1it is now known as wrabbit
  26 2013-05-22 00:06:27 <gmaxwell> The_Fly: the latter pretty much. Basically turning the wallet into a SPV client that can connect to a single trusted node.
  27 2013-05-22 00:06:38 <The_Fly> i see, it sounds good
  28 2013-05-22 00:07:09 <The_Fly> at the moment im thinking of just using rabbitmq routing keys to split wallettx messages (from bitcoin_zmq)
  29 2013-05-22 00:07:34 <The_Fly> so at least i can know when transactions occur on each wallet
  30 2013-05-22 00:07:48 <The_Fly> and respond accordingly on a per-project basis
  31 2013-05-22 00:08:10 <The_Fly> but to send i'll need to talk back to main bitcoind (for now)
  32 2013-05-22 00:08:54 <gmaxwell> The_Fly: does any of that zmq stuff have any authentication at all?
  33 2013-05-22 00:09:11 <The_Fly> no, it does not
  34 2013-05-22 00:09:23 <The_Fly> and would need to have
  35 2013-05-22 00:10:00 <The_Fly> right now there's pub/sub for alerts, blocks, transactions (and transactions relating to your wallets, so you get them double but with one tagged)
  36 2013-05-22 00:10:06 <The_Fly> and req/rep for rpc methods
  37 2013-05-22 00:10:13 <The_Fly> which could do with some auth handshake first
  38 2013-05-22 00:10:27 <The_Fly> so this is why i was thinking ssh keys
  39 2013-05-22 00:10:53 <The_Fly> but you could just as well tunnel
  40 2013-05-22 00:11:36 <The_Fly> rabbitmq is handy also, i can see this being a good tool for building bitcoin infrastructure (if people are not already doing so!)
  41 2013-05-22 00:13:00 <maaku> mrkent: maaku is me
  42 2013-05-22 00:14:14 <mrkent> maaku, what are you doing for SD that gmaxwell considers good wokr?
  43 2013-05-22 00:14:31 <maaku> mrkent: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=204283.0
  44 2013-05-22 00:14:34 <The_Fly> buying him weekly beer supply
  45 2013-05-22 00:14:46 <gmaxwell> mrkent: SD will be funding maaku to explore some proposed improvements that may eventually make the bitcoin system stronger and more scalable.
  46 2013-05-22 00:15:01 Hunger- has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  47 2013-05-22 00:15:09 <maaku> The_Fly: :)
  48 2013-05-22 00:15:25 <gmaxwell> (even if maaku's work itself doesn't end up wide adopted the fact that someone will be getting around to implementing some of this proposed stuff is very helpful in moving things forward)
  49 2013-05-22 00:15:31 <gmaxwell> s/wide/widely/
  50 2013-05-22 00:15:53 <The_Fly> the information in that post pertains to what im interested in doing with bitcoind
  51 2013-05-22 00:16:49 <The_Fly> nice Parks-McClellan filter for difficulty
  52 2013-05-22 00:19:41 rushed has quit (Quit: rushed)
  53 2013-05-22 00:20:10 <maaku> The_Fly: yeah, I'm turning that into a BIP and pull-request soon, where it will languish until we have a planned hard-fork
  54 2013-05-22 00:20:14 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
  55 2013-05-22 00:20:45 <The_Fly> that design will ultimately be easier to work with
  56 2013-05-22 00:20:47 <maaku> The_Fly: feel free to contact me offline about whatever related thing you're up to with bitcoind
  57 2013-05-22 00:21:18 <The_Fly> all ive done so far is get multiwallet and zmq pullreqs working, merged them together also
  58 2013-05-22 00:21:26 <gmaxwell> Nak on PID controller / fast difficulty adjustment.
  59 2013-05-22 00:21:32 <maaku> galambo (forum handle) deserves credit for the idea and designing the filter itself
  60 2013-05-22 00:21:33 <The_Fly> and am playing with getting the messages over to a rabbitmq exchange
  61 2013-05-22 00:21:50 <The_Fly> then workers on the other side, right now just inserting blocks/tx/wallettx into mongodb collections
  62 2013-05-22 00:22:12 <The_Fly> for fun... but the intent is for a scalable infrastructure
  63 2013-05-22 00:22:36 <The_Fly> it's not so much a design or proposal of how people *should* use bitcoind for such purposes
  64 2013-05-22 00:22:40 <maaku> gmaxwell: it's a FIR filter, not PID, and I suggest looking at the data first before judging ;)
  65 2013-05-22 00:22:42 <The_Fly> but it works, for now
  66 2013-05-22 00:23:11 <gmaxwell> Non-linear (or even high order) filters create weird incentives, the straight for order proportional controller means that craking the time forward only costs the network the same inflation in the next window. ... and the quantized adjustment greatly increases the cost of partition-and-mine-down attack. Alts have been attacked through fast adjustment in the past.
  67 2013-05-22 00:23:36 <gmaxwell> maaku: ah, galambo was originally working with non-linear filters.
  68 2013-05-22 00:24:01 nizeguy has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  69 2013-05-22 00:24:47 <gmaxwell> wtf didn't he use a bessel filter, in-band ripple sucks for this application.
  70 2013-05-22 00:25:22 <mrkent> this is useful
  71 2013-05-22 00:25:31 <The_Fly> moving to bittorent is a good plan
  72 2013-05-22 00:26:00 <The_Fly> and the next comment is related to leveldb
  73 2013-05-22 00:26:18 franl has joined
  74 2013-05-22 00:26:19 <The_Fly> and proposes nosql
  75 2013-05-22 00:26:23 <mrkent> i'm considering switchiing to electrum because blockchian taking up too much space
  76 2013-05-22 00:26:29 galambo_ has joined
  77 2013-05-22 00:26:37 <The_Fly> if i put an index on the txid it is pretty fast in mongodb
  78 2013-05-22 00:26:44 <The_Fly> at least on testnet... heh
  79 2013-05-22 00:27:12 <The_Fly> my laptop cant handle getting all blocks/txs over two virtualbox instances on mainnet
  80 2013-05-22 00:27:20 <The_Fly> it manages, but a backlog builds up
  81 2013-05-22 00:27:24 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
  82 2013-05-22 00:27:43 <lianj> The_Fly: mongo is quite fast. just has big indexes
  83 2013-05-22 00:27:51 <IanCormac> Blockchain takes up like 40 cents of storage
  84 2013-05-22 00:27:53 <The_Fly> im hoping that rabbitmq has a different policy on message retention for peristent messages
  85 2013-05-22 00:28:02 <The_Fly> lianj: i have db.stats() for testnet
  86 2013-05-22 00:28:08 <The_Fly> or i had them, id need to run it again
  87 2013-05-22 00:28:16 <The_Fly> but it was quite reasonalbe (for testnet)
  88 2013-05-22 00:28:24 <The_Fly> let met see...
  89 2013-05-22 00:28:27 <lianj> i know, we run it on mainnet
  90 2013-05-22 00:28:42 <The_Fly> we?
  91 2013-05-22 00:28:54 <lianj> at coinbase
  92 2013-05-22 00:28:59 <The_Fly> i see
  93 2013-05-22 00:29:09 <The_Fly> "count" : 545226, "txid_1" : 69332480
  94 2013-05-22 00:29:19 <The_Fly> "size" : 638911852
  95 2013-05-22 00:29:40 <The_Fly> i think that was a full run followed by half of another --reindex
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  97 2013-05-22 00:30:03 <The_Fly> for mainnet it's going to be quite large...
  98 2013-05-22 00:30:23 <lianj> indeed
  99 2013-05-22 00:30:35 <lianj> but still fine
 100 2013-05-22 00:30:48 <The_Fly> yeah, im hosting on amazon at the moment
 101 2013-05-22 00:30:58 <The_Fly> it think should be okay price-wise
 102 2013-05-22 00:31:13 <The_Fly> and once you have the full chain you can snapshot every so often
 103 2013-05-22 00:31:37 <The_Fly> cron that even
 104 2013-05-22 00:31:43 <gmaxwell> maaku: when you get bored with working other stuff you should try replacing your filter with a bessel IIR. If you model the result with miners that turn on and off at varrious difficulties I expect it to be much more stable because the chebyshev filter is equalripple and has non-uniform group delay, and I expect will not drive the system to stablility without huge time constants. (I can give you sutable fixed point bessel code, should you wan
 105 2013-05-22 00:32:23 <The_Fly> lianj: are coinbase hiring ;) lol
 106 2013-05-22 00:32:26 <The_Fly> i see bitpay are
 107 2013-05-22 00:32:35 <The_Fly> but hmm...
 108 2013-05-22 00:33:36 jgarzik has joined
 109 2013-05-22 00:33:45 <maaku> gmaxwell: it'd be interesting to compare, but "when I have time" probably means never :P
 110 2013-05-22 00:34:08 * nsh shakes gmaxwell upside-down until wikipedia article names fall out
 111 2013-05-22 00:34:21 <The_Fly> lianj: how many are at coinbase so far anyway? if you dont mind me asking
 112 2013-05-22 00:34:47 BOBSONATOR_ has joined
 113 2013-05-22 00:35:25 <nsh> what is this, network theory?
 114 2013-05-22 00:35:41 seeingidog__ has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 115 2013-05-22 00:35:53 <BOBSONATOR_> Hey guys, do I increment the nonce and utc WITHIN the block header and then hash it? or do I APPEND a nonce + utc to the block header then hash it?? Thanks
 116 2013-05-22 00:36:29 <gmaxwell> nsh: I understand that MIT has several of their control systems courses online now.
 117 2013-05-22 00:36:37 <gmaxwell> nsh: it's control systems.
 118 2013-05-22 00:36:40 IceLookLo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 119 2013-05-22 00:36:44 <nsh> right
 120 2013-05-22 00:36:57 <nsh> but the application is bitcoin mining
 121 2013-05-22 00:37:33 <galambo_> nsh : for control of the mining difficulty
 122 2013-05-22 00:37:38 <gmaxwell> nsh: the idea is that the difficulty changes to keep the hashrate stable. You want to drive the system to the correct set point in the 'best' manner.
 123 2013-05-22 00:37:45 <gmaxwell> Best can be hard to define.
 124 2013-05-22 00:38:04 <nsh> ok, i follow
 125 2013-05-22 00:38:27 <galambo_> gmaxwell what do you mean "non-uniform group delay"
 126 2013-05-22 00:38:37 diki has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 127 2013-05-22 00:38:43 <gmaxwell> Esp since faster changes are somewhat incompatible with security.  You could get all wizardry with adapting the time constant based on the change to improve that. (much easier to do with an iir filter) but its harder to prove that stable.
 128 2013-05-22 00:40:30 JDuke128 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 129 2013-05-22 00:40:45 <gmaxwell> galambo_: the phase response of the filter is strongly frequency dependant (it has a high derivative). The consequence is that a step function in— like the hashrate going up— produces a bunch of rining.  If there is any nonlinearity in the system you are controlling, e.g. miners that turn on and off at certian difficulties, the ringing can actually drive the system into oscillation.
 130 2013-05-22 00:41:19 <gmaxwell> The stupid box filter we have no has no ripple in the pass band... so long as the lowpass of it is low enough it shouldn't oscillate. (obviously it's not been low enough at some times in the past)
 131 2013-05-22 00:41:53 <galambo_> your box filter almost ate your lunch if avalon had not switched on
 132 2013-05-22 00:42:06 <galambo_> then you would have ended up like a scamcoin
 133 2013-05-22 00:42:27 <galambo_> bitcoin mining was negative profitability at the start of the year
 134 2013-05-22 00:42:41 <galambo_> its only a matter of time
 135 2013-05-22 00:42:57 <gmaxwell> I say you're wrong, and— in fact— a chebyshev filter which has the same ripple at _all_ frequencies would drive bitcoin+litecoin hopping system into instability very quickly esp with a few block time constant
 136 2013-05-22 00:43:11 <mrkent> gmaxwell, do you get paid for dev work?
 137 2013-05-22 00:43:16 <gmaxwell> mrkent: No.
 138 2013-05-22 00:43:21 <nsh> (ostensibly)
 139 2013-05-22 00:43:29 <gmaxwell> (and don't want to be, though I'm happy with people toss me tips here and there)
 140 2013-05-22 00:43:32 <mrkent> why does gavin get paid?
 141 2013-05-22 00:43:44 <galambo_> gmaxwell
 142 2013-05-22 00:43:46 <gmaxwell> mrkent: because he wants to be.
 143 2013-05-22 00:43:49 <mrkent> is he so much more important then the rest of u?
 144 2013-05-22 00:43:58 <galambo_> please read this article on your website wikipedia.org http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_phase
 145 2013-05-22 00:44:20 <galambo_> "Since a linear phase (or generalized linear phase) filter has constant group delay, all frequency components have equal delay times. "
 146 2013-05-22 00:44:30 * nsh amends research notes: gmaxwell == satoshi == jimbo
 147 2013-05-22 00:45:01 <galambo_> "In a causal system, perfect linear phase can be achieved with a discrete-time FIR filter."
 148 2013-05-22 00:45:25 BurtyB has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 149 2013-05-22 00:45:27 <sipa> mrkent: most importantly, he does not have any other job
 150 2013-05-22 00:45:54 BurtyB has joined
 151 2013-05-22 00:45:56 <galambo_> gmaxwell we will get to find out who is right in about 24 hours *salute*
 152 2013-05-22 00:46:01 <gmaxwell> galambo_: yes, I'm familar with a linear pharse filter. Not all FIR are linear phase. But a linear phase filter does not eliminate ripple in the pass band.  But there is no reason to just debate it. If you have a test rig for this I'll modify it to show the behavior if you like.
 153 2013-05-22 00:46:23 <gmaxwell> galambo_: oh, you've put this into something? have fun with that.
 154 2013-05-22 00:46:44 <galambo_> yes freicoin switches over in 24 hours
 155 2013-05-22 00:47:03 <mrkent> sipa, so you're saying he's a bum?
 156 2013-05-22 00:47:10 <galambo_> after that freicoin will be constantly more profitable to mine than bitcoin XD
 157 2013-05-22 00:47:10 <gmaxwell> galambo_: does freicoin have something that people hop to and from? (e.g. is the system non-linear?)
 158 2013-05-22 00:47:25 <sipa> mrkent: no, i'm saying he works on bitcoin fulltime
 159 2013-05-22 00:48:18 <gmaxwell> I think part of the distinct value that I provide is that I don't, because it gives me different incentives and perspectives— but it's utterly important to have some people working on the technology full time.
 160 2013-05-22 00:49:00 <gmaxwell> galambo_: can you point me to the freicoin patch?
 161 2013-05-22 00:49:02 <BOBSONATOR_> Anyone out there that can explain to me if we simply change the Nonce within the block header then sha(sha(blockheader))? or is it sha(sha(blockheader+nonce))?? Thanks
 162 2013-05-22 00:49:13 <maaku> mrkent: feel free to proove your worth as a trusted developer, and I'm sure someone will step in to pay your salary too
 163 2013-05-22 00:49:17 <nsh> BOBSONATOR_, the former
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 167 2013-05-22 00:49:37 <BOBSONATOR_> nsh, do we also change the timestamp? or do we keep it? thanks
 168 2013-05-22 00:49:39 <mrkent> maaku, not my goal
 169 2013-05-22 00:49:59 <sipa> BOBSONATOR_: the nonce is part of the header
 170 2013-05-22 00:50:14 <sipa> BOBSONATOR_: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm
 171 2013-05-22 00:50:17 <galambo_> gmaxwell: https://github.com/freicoin/freicoin/commit/0bb4a5666baee9ebc051d97182dd7850ebaf7648#src/main.cpp
 172 2013-05-22 00:50:49 <BOBSONATOR_> sipa, Yea but we change those four bytes from 0-32^2
 173 2013-05-22 00:51:05 <BOBSONATOR_> sipa, do we change the timestamp as well or do we leave that alone? thanks
 174 2013-05-22 00:51:12 <nsh> (timestamp "should be" changed every few seconds)
 175 2013-05-22 00:51:13 <sipa> BOBSONATOR_: "depends"
 176 2013-05-22 00:51:43 <BOBSONATOR_> nsh, hmm, perhaps I should just getWork() again? or should I manipulate it?
 177 2013-05-22 00:51:48 <gmaxwell> galambo_: so did you not see that old forum post I made about how the short windows with the near limiters make weird incentives because they move the non-linearity into where it matters?   I'm curious why you didn't find this persuasive?
 178 2013-05-22 00:52:09 <nsh> it may depend on what you're trying to achieve, BOBSONATOR_
 179 2013-05-22 00:52:18 <sipa> BOBSONATOR_: depends whether the source you're getting the getwork from allows changing the timestamp
 180 2013-05-22 00:52:20 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (away!~PiZZaMaN2@unaffiliated/pizzaman2k|Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 181 2013-05-22 00:52:25 <sipa> some do, some don't
 182 2013-05-22 00:53:00 <BOBSONATOR_> sipa, interesting! so it depends on your pool
 183 2013-05-22 00:53:02 <maaku> gmaxwell: because we ran *lots* of simulations under various scenarios, and picked filters & parameters based on what the data showed
 184 2013-05-22 00:53:27 <nsh> gmaxwell, i would assume a main "desirable" property of the filter should be to flatten the expectation of nonlinear mining behaviours
 185 2013-05-22 00:53:29 <BOBSONATOR_> sipa, if you were to solo mine you'd be able to I presume?
 186 2013-05-22 00:53:48 PiZZaMaN2K has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 187 2013-05-22 00:53:51 <nsh> how that trades off against other constraints may be an open problem
 188 2013-05-22 00:53:56 <galambo_> gmaxwell, sometimes weird incentives work
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 190 2013-05-22 00:54:01 <sipa> BOBSONATOR_: i don't think bitcoind allows rolling timestamps
 191 2013-05-22 00:54:22 <jgarzik> speaking of
 192 2013-05-22 00:54:27 <jgarzik> let's delete getwork
 193 2013-05-22 00:54:40 <sipa> too much legacy infrastructure depending on it, i think
 194 2013-05-22 00:54:48 <sipa> but you have perhaps a better idea of that than me
 195 2013-05-22 00:54:55 <gmaxwell> galambo_: IIRC if I remember my prior argument, it means things like a party with enough hashing power to slam the limiter can pulse operation with positive expectation over constant mining.
 196 2013-05-22 00:55:26 <BOBSONATOR_> jgarzik: thanks for all your examples online
 197 2013-05-22 00:55:53 <galambo_> isn't that how bitcoin mining works now
 198 2013-05-22 00:56:02 skajake has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
 199 2013-05-22 00:56:28 <BOBSONATOR_> so sipa , nsh, the only think i'm going to change of the block header before I sha(sha(blockheader)) is the nonce val
 200 2013-05-22 00:56:32 <gmaxwell> In bitcoin this takes >4x the base hashing power to do this profitably, so under our assumptions (majority of 'honest' miners) its shouldn't be possible.
 201 2013-05-22 00:56:35 <jgarzik> Maybe.  mainnet is pretty much moved away from getwork.  I do wonder about testnet and private use.  Tried mining with getwork-based cpuminer on testnet last month, and it had problems.
 202 2013-05-22 00:56:47 <jgarzik> so the thought was: disable by default, re-enable with config option
 203 2013-05-22 00:56:55 <jgarzik> first step in very long deprecation
 204 2013-05-22 00:57:16 <jgarzik> easy to drop, if outcry
 205 2013-05-22 00:57:33 <jgarzik> easy for miners to continue to elect using
 206 2013-05-22 00:57:42 <jgarzik> galambo_, not really
 207 2013-05-22 00:57:56 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
 208 2013-05-22 00:58:22 <galambo_> bitcoin: beyond economics
 209 2013-05-22 00:59:08 <galambo_> what are we seeing with asics race? a bunch of people trying to beat the difficulty increase?
 210 2013-05-22 01:00:21 Diapolis has joined
 211 2013-05-22 01:01:30 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I think we should remove getwork along with some of the mining improvements being talked about... if there is good solo mining support that should address testnet and such too.
 212 2013-05-22 01:02:00 ageis has quit (Quit: http://ageispolis.net)
 213 2013-05-22 01:02:08 <gmaxwell> maaku: wheres the simulator for this stuff?  Did it simulate miners hopping between coins based on profitablity?
 214 2013-05-22 01:02:32 <gmaxwell> (or turning off w/ non-profitablity— thats probably simplier)
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 216 2013-05-22 01:02:43 <sipa> removing getwork is probably incompatible with dropping -gen support too
 217 2013-05-22 01:03:15 <jgarzik> sipa, disagree
 218 2013-05-22 01:03:25 <sipa> as it makes the very-simple-reference-miner-for-testing approach hard
 219 2013-05-22 01:03:25 ageis has joined
 220 2013-05-22 01:03:26 <jgarzik> I would keep getblocktemplate and -gen for now
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 222 2013-05-22 01:03:33 <jgarzik> just not getwork
 223 2013-05-22 01:03:36 <maaku> gmaxwell: it's in the share/difficulty_adjustment directory, but I don't think the individual simulations ever got put under version control
 224 2013-05-22 01:03:44 <nsh> apropos of BOBSONATOR_'s question: the limit for clock discrepancy in block-header timestamp is +/-2h currently? is this value meaningful in terms of possible attacks / unexpected behaviours?
 225 2013-05-22 01:03:49 <sipa> jgarzik: i agree there' i just say we can't drop both getwork and -gen
 226 2013-05-22 01:03:53 <jgarzik> GBT has really superceded it, and the bitcoind-talking mining software is moving
 227 2013-05-22 01:03:57 <gmaxwell> sipa: I was thinking along the lines of we drop getwork and gen and bundle a cpu+gpu+fpga+asic miner package along with the binary distributions. But I'm not married to the idea.
 228 2013-05-22 01:04:00 <jgarzik> sipa, I want to keep -gen
 229 2013-05-22 01:04:06 <jgarzik> very nice for testnet
 230 2013-05-22 01:04:13 <jgarzik> and TINAB
 231 2013-05-22 01:04:16 <jgarzik> TNIAB
 232 2013-05-22 01:04:21 <gmaxwell> (and even support a -gen that just forks the included miner)
 233 2013-05-22 01:04:39 <jgarzik> forking would be nice
 234 2013-05-22 01:04:53 <gmaxwell> Less code to maintain, more consistency... etc.
 235 2013-05-22 01:05:20 BOBSONATOR_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 236 2013-05-22 01:05:21 <galambo_> gmaxwell here is a simulation http://i.imgur.com/H0B7sd6.png
 237 2013-05-22 01:05:38 seeingidog__ has joined
 238 2013-05-22 01:06:10 seeingidog__ has quit (Client Quit)
 239 2013-05-22 01:06:16 <gmaxwell> .. is blue your difficulty there?
 240 2013-05-22 01:06:49 <galambo_> difficulty times a constant to turn it into hashrate
 241 2013-05-22 01:07:23 <gmaxwell> dude. that overall response isn't at all linear phase (though I see the filter is). I guess because of the clamps.  thats some stupdendous ringing.
 242 2013-05-22 01:07:42 <gmaxwell> I wish you luck.
 243 2013-05-22 01:08:48 <galambo_> the ringing is necessary
 244 2013-05-22 01:09:01 <galambo_> to achieve the slightly underdamped condition
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 246 2013-05-22 01:09:42 <galambo_> here is a test with real hashes
 247 2013-05-22 01:09:43 <galambo_> http://i.imgur.com/X6qE9uY.png
 248 2013-05-22 01:09:55 <gmaxwell> whats real hashes mean?
 249 2013-05-22 01:10:08 <galambo_> actually mining with the filter
 250 2013-05-22 01:10:38 <gmaxwell> galambo_: oh sure, well, I'd trust a model of that just fine.
 251 2013-05-22 01:10:49 <gmaxwell> Whats the purple line in the first graph?
 252 2013-05-22 01:10:51 <galambo_> 50MH/s = ~7.25 difficulty
 253 2013-05-22 01:11:00 <galambo_> purple line is what PPCoin would do
 254 2013-05-22 01:11:03 seeingidog__ has joined
 255 2013-05-22 01:12:31 <gmaxwell> did you test it at all with miners that had non-linear behavior? e.g. turning off when mining was unprofitable for them? (/more profitable elsewhere)
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 258 2013-05-22 01:13:12 <galambo_> it turns out mining has that behavior even without manipulation
 259 2013-05-22 01:14:07 <gmaxwell> hm? What do you mean by manipulation there?  I know that mining has difficulty/profit non-linear behavior.
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 267 2013-05-22 01:24:11 <k00shi> Does Eric Lombrozo go as "Coinsurge" in here?
 268 2013-05-22 01:24:24 LorenzoMoney has left ("Ciao!")
 269 2013-05-22 01:24:50 <sipa> no, as CodeShark
 270 2013-05-22 01:24:59 <k00shi> Ah, thanks.
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 273 2013-05-22 01:27:13 <nsh> no, i'm sparticus!
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 275 2013-05-22 01:29:41 <k00shi> :)
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 283 2013-05-22 01:36:12 <gmaxwell> maaku: any idea if you explored difficulty systems that adjusted without blocks? (e.g. things like the crazy testnet rule but not constructed in a suicidal way?)
 284 2013-05-22 01:37:18 <maaku> gmaxwell: no we didn't want anything that had an asymtetric adjustment (like testnet does)
 285 2013-05-22 01:37:37 <maaku> and we were biased towards FIR filters over IIR, to limit dependency on history
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 289 2013-05-22 01:39:17 <gmaxwell> maaku: meh, well FIR means that to make the passband flat you need a large _actual_ delay. you could always commit the feedback state in the blocks, so that there wasn't any 'history' from a software engineering perspective. But okay.
 290 2013-05-22 01:39:25 <gmaxwell> What testnet does is broken for a number of reasons.
 291 2013-05-22 01:39:47 <maaku> we conservatively stuck to the "adjustment based on filtered interblock time" model, although we explored many options within that space
 292 2013-05-22 01:40:00 <gmaxwell> thats what I was asking ::nods::
 293 2013-05-22 01:40:28 <gmaxwell> (not trying to say any of those ideas are _good_ ... they all tend to suck for convergence ... unless you use a blockchain in your blockchain to agree on the time. :P )
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 333 2013-05-22 02:27:42 <foamy> hello
 334 2013-05-22 02:27:50 sensorii has joined
 335 2013-05-22 02:27:50 guruvan has joined
 336 2013-05-22 02:28:32 <foamy> I was wondering if anyone has looked into using bitcoin's underlying blockchain technology as a means of establishing a decentralized P2P distributed credentials database
 337 2013-05-22 02:28:59 <foamy> similar to Namecoin, but for credentials with regards to "private networks"
 338 2013-05-22 02:29:26 <nsh> foamy, what problems would this solve?
 339 2013-05-22 02:31:29 <foamy> it can allow 2 disparate networks to interface with each other.... i.e. Facebook users could interact with Google+ users
 340 2013-05-22 02:32:36 <nsh> ok now imagine i asked the same question but politely rephrased :)
 341 2013-05-22 02:33:03 Diapolis has joined
 342 2013-05-22 02:33:05 <foamy> lol well, think about something like Yammer
 343 2013-05-22 02:33:16 cypher_ is now known as cypher
 344 2013-05-22 02:33:33 <foamy> which is centered around private social networking
 345 2013-05-22 02:34:01 GMP has joined
 346 2013-05-22 02:34:04 <nsh> all i get is a cover of that beatles song about the kid with the stammer (lily the pink!) but covered by a world yodelling team
 347 2013-05-22 02:34:23 <foamy> hmmmmm
 348 2013-05-22 02:34:34 <nsh> but seriously, network interoperability is a business-logic/legal problem more than technical one
 349 2013-05-22 02:34:58 <nsh> maybe: hey couldn't we have something like oauth that isn't shit?!?
 350 2013-05-22 02:35:12 <nsh> would be a more technologically-orientated line of enquiry
 351 2013-05-22 02:35:37 <nsh> imho with the disclaimer that i know nothing
 352 2013-05-22 02:36:37 <nsh> (heh, yammer was bought for more than tumblr is sought)
 353 2013-05-22 02:37:50 <foamy> sorry back
 354 2013-05-22 02:37:51 <foamy> well
 355 2013-05-22 02:38:10 <foamy> i was thinking the main problems with something like oauth and the reason it doesnt catch on in a widespread manner
 356 2013-05-22 02:38:17 <foamy> is theres too much trust involved on a technical level
 357 2013-05-22 02:38:27 <k00shi> foamy: That's something I've thought about a little.
 358 2013-05-22 02:38:30 <foamy> that in order to become part of the oauth alliance
 359 2013-05-22 02:38:33 malaimo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 360 2013-05-22 02:39:17 <k00shi> foamy: Not exactly about interfacing two social networks, but how a blockchain could be used as a kind of distributed database for social networks.
 361 2013-05-22 02:39:48 <foamy> well, the problem with using the ENTIRE database is overhead
 362 2013-05-22 02:40:06 <foamy> trying to download the entire blockchain today takes long enough
 363 2013-05-22 02:40:07 <k00shi> foamy: Yeah, it seemed technically interesting and then, very rapidly, like overkill.
 364 2013-05-22 02:40:26 malaimo has joined
 365 2013-05-22 02:40:31 <foamy> imagine when every cat picture on your social network needs to be downloaded before you are in sync
 366 2013-05-22 02:40:33 <foamy> heh
 367 2013-05-22 02:40:35 <k00shi> foamy: But I tell you what the blockchain probably could be really good for is a distributed torrent service. :)
 368 2013-05-22 02:40:49 <foamy> yes, for something like torrents it works
 369 2013-05-22 02:41:12 <foamy> and for credentials
 370 2013-05-22 02:41:13 <foamy> :D
 371 2013-05-22 02:41:15 Diapolis has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 372 2013-05-22 02:41:47 cypher has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 373 2013-05-22 02:41:51 <k00shi> I don't know if I get your idea.
 374 2013-05-22 02:42:14 cypher has joined
 375 2013-05-22 02:42:24 <foamy> well its just a P2P distributed credentials database
 376 2013-05-22 02:42:27 <foamy> at the end of the day
 377 2013-05-22 02:42:51 <k00shi> Like, "if you can sign against the key in this block, you're in" ?
 378 2013-05-22 02:43:04 <k00shi> Something that simple?
 379 2013-05-22 02:43:21 <foamy> yes
 380 2013-05-22 02:43:50 <foamy> you dont even need to build a seperate protocol
 381 2013-05-22 02:43:53 <foamy> you can use colored coins
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 386 2013-05-22 02:45:22 <foamy> so its like OAuth but without the messiness
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 391 2013-05-22 02:47:43 <k00shi> I suppose it could work for some applications
 392 2013-05-22 02:47:55 <k00shi> Are you going to try and implement it?
 393 2013-05-22 02:48:41 ralphtheninja has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 394 2013-05-22 02:49:41 <foamy> well
 395 2013-05-22 02:50:00 <foamy> the cool thing is you can implement it in a way that is totally transparent to the user
 396 2013-05-22 02:50:29 <foamy> so they sign up with a typical username and pass and you store their "bitcoin colored coin" on the server
 397 2013-05-22 02:50:51 <foamy> so i might do it with some of my smaller startups to see if it "works" on a single site basis
 398 2013-05-22 02:50:57 <foamy> i dont see why it wouldnt though
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 401 2013-05-22 02:53:34 <k00shi> I love this kind of stuff, please do it.
 402 2013-05-22 02:53:57 <k00shi> But please don't do it on the Bitcoin blockchain :)
 403 2013-05-22 02:55:54 <foamy> heh, I would have agreed with that sentiment a few months ag
 404 2013-05-22 02:56:14 fiesh has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 405 2013-05-22 02:56:17 <foamy> but if i got anything out of the bitcoin conference
 406 2013-05-22 02:56:33 <foamy> its that the blockchain is being used for a lot of bullshit :P
 407 2013-05-22 02:56:42 <k00shi> Right so no sense making it worse
 408 2013-05-22 02:56:45 <foamy> from satoshidice to chan boards
 409 2013-05-22 02:56:51 <k00shi> Chan boards? Oh god.
 410 2013-05-22 02:58:22 RBecker is now known as rbecker
 411 2013-05-22 02:58:35 ColinT has quit (Quit: Leaving...)
 412 2013-05-22 02:59:00 <foamy> http://blockchan.org/
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 414 2013-05-22 02:59:17 he1kki has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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 416 2013-05-22 02:59:45 <foamy> http://blockchan.org/replies?id=91c9ad40-461d-44c5-bcfa-22f30020cb63
 417 2013-05-22 02:59:59 franl has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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 419 2013-05-22 03:00:20 <foamy> that thread is permanently embedded into the blockchain
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 422 2013-05-22 03:02:22 <k00shi> OMG
 423 2013-05-22 03:02:33 <k00shi> Diabolical. :)
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 435 2013-05-22 03:17:56 <galambo_> is blockchan stored on the bitcoin blockchain or another one?
 436 2013-05-22 03:20:23 <foamy> bitcoin blockchain
 437 2013-05-22 03:20:30 <gmaxwell> 19:05 < foamy> I was wondering if anyone has looked into using bitcoin's underlying blockchain technology as a means of establishing a decentralized P2P distributed
 438 2013-05-22 03:20:32 <galambo_> god help us all...
 439 2013-05-22 03:20:57 <gmaxwell> It does not appear that bitcoin is a generalized solution to decenteralized consensus. It is only secure with certian incentive structures in place.
 440 2013-05-22 03:20:57 <foamy> yes gmaxwell?
 441 2013-05-22 03:21:25 <foamy> well thats why it would have to work ontop of the bitcoin blockchain
 442 2013-05-22 03:21:30 <foamy> using something like colored coins
 443 2013-05-22 03:22:11 <gmaxwell> foamy: potentially. Though keep in mind that the best an anonymous decenteralized consensus can give you is eventual consistency. Your application has to tolerate history being rewritten out from under it.
 444 2013-05-22 03:23:05 Guest7078 is now known as ageis
 445 2013-05-22 03:23:08 <gmaxwell> And it also have to have a very low operation rate, since scaling limits make bitcoin rapidly unattractive for high volumes. E.g. you couldn't realistically decenteralize a MMORPG using bitcoin.
 446 2013-05-22 03:24:18 <gmaxwell> foamy: got an example of the transactions? whats the point if the website is the only way to see it?
 447 2013-05-22 03:25:06 <foamy> well, youd be using it for credentials alone
 448 2013-05-22 03:25:17 <foamy> also, blockchan is unrelated to what im talking about
 449 2013-05-22 03:25:26 <gmaxwell> I realize that. :)
 450 2013-05-22 03:26:00 <galambo_> blockchancoin
 451 2013-05-22 03:26:16 <gmaxwell> foamy: ::nods:: there are some neat proposals that involve provably throwing away (to transaction fees) bitcoins as a means of producing cryptographic pseudonyms which were expensive to create.
 452 2013-05-22 03:26:22 <galambo_> posts = $$$
 453 2013-05-22 03:27:02 <foamy> well, thats again why youd use colored coins because you can spend like 0.000001BTC to generate a genesis ledger for 1 "Currency"/Login Server
 454 2013-05-22 03:27:09 <foamy> basically, signing up at a network with a username grants you a colored coin whose public key is your "user" and whose private key is your "password"
 455 2013-05-22 03:27:44 <gmaxwell> foamy: what purpose does this serve?  The server must be trusted to assign value to that identity, so why not just remove bitcoin from the loop?
 456 2013-05-22 03:27:54 warren has joined
 457 2013-05-22 03:28:17 fanquake has joined
 458 2013-05-22 03:28:24 <warren> Can someone please remind me where to find an example of correct battery horse staple output spam that made it into a block?
 459 2013-05-22 03:28:37 <gmaxwell> foamy: if you want to support people buying and selling those accounts, just go to the server and say "transfer my account to X when you see a transaction on the bitcoin network pay Y btc to X". Then no colored coin required but you can still do an atomic sale.
 460 2013-05-22 03:29:01 ngc0202 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 461 2013-05-22 03:30:07 <gmaxwell> warren: http://blockchain.info/block/000000000000001f0bb471845de03a56f5693afd10568e61ac71809c819aea64
 462 2013-05-22 03:30:24 <gmaxwell> there are tons of them though.
 463 2013-05-22 03:31:13 tyn has joined
 464 2013-05-22 03:31:39 <galambo_> what is this supposed to do
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 470 2013-05-22 03:32:19 <gmaxwell> no one knows whats motivating the attack, it actually does a bunch of different minorly harmful things, so I could only guess which if any were the goals.
 471 2013-05-22 03:33:03 <warren> gmaxwell: yikes.  They began spamming non-dust after?
 472 2013-05-22 03:33:25 <warren> That fee doesn't seem to reflect the cost.
 473 2013-05-22 03:33:42 TheSeven has quit (Disconnected by services)
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 475 2013-05-22 03:34:34 <galambo_> bitcoin core devs spamming their own network so they can exclude dust transactions, i surmise? a false flag attack... ;)
 476 2013-05-22 03:34:37 <warren> gmaxwell: judging by crazy posts on trolltalk, it seemed to me that the attack began in response to IsDust(), protesting "censorship" or whatever crazy theory they hold.
 477 2013-05-22 03:35:03 <gmaxwell> It may be someone 'helpfully' trying to trigger the 0.8 vs <0.8 hardfork, since it seemed to start around that time... but if so, it's misguided.
 478 2013-05-22 03:35:05 Diapolis has joined
 479 2013-05-22 03:35:17 <gmaxwell> (that behavior isn't likely to trigger it)
 480 2013-05-22 03:36:07 <gmaxwell> warren: hard to say. maybe. Maybe it's someone in favor of the changes making spam to show the changes valid. Or maybe its someone opposed to the changes pretending to be someone in favor of them in order to undermine respect for people in favor of the changes.
 481 2013-05-22 03:36:27 <gmaxwell> Or it's an attack on wallet services that allow key imports— it certantly had that effect. This totally wedged mtgox processing for a long time.
 482 2013-05-22 03:36:51 <warren> I assume gox adjusted their sweeping for it.
 483 2013-05-22 03:37:24 <gmaxwell> Eventually.
 484 2013-05-22 03:37:27 Luke-Jr has quit (Excess Flood)
 485 2013-05-22 03:37:43 <warren> The IsDust() protesters are popping up in Litecoinland too.
 486 2013-05-22 03:37:44 talengix has joined
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 488 2013-05-22 03:38:15 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: WB luke
 489 2013-05-22 03:38:20 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
 490 2013-05-22 03:38:21 <gmaxwell> well litecoin has different and arguably more agressive (but I think less effective) anti-spam stuff.
 491 2013-05-22 03:38:50 FredEE has joined
 492 2013-05-22 03:39:07 <gmaxwell> "we'll permit it but charge super duper insane fees, making the uneconomic-to-spend problem 100x worse!"
 493 2013-05-22 03:39:37 Diapolis has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 494 2013-05-22 03:39:40 <warren> I agree with the "super duper insane fees" part, but how does that make the " uneconomic-to-spend problem 100x worse"?
 495 2013-05-22 03:40:49 <gmaxwell> warren: because the high fees aren't only for dust— but even ignoring that, it makes it so you cannot do a fairly cheap dust to dust sweep up txn.
 496 2013-05-22 03:41:24 <foamy> sorry i was getting a bite to eat
 497 2013-05-22 03:41:28 <foamy> basically my idea is this
 498 2013-05-22 03:42:11 <warren> the smallest dust are the p2pool outputs, which I agree are problematic.
 499 2013-05-22 03:42:34 <foamy> so lets say tomorrow i wanted to start a website that needed login credentials. When a user signs up that website it supplies it with a typical username and password. For each username, the server generates one or more bitcoin address/public keys, and private keys. The server never knows the private keys, as these are encrypted by a hashed and salted password the user has provided when
 500 2013-05-22 03:42:34 <foamy> the address is first generated.
 501 2013-05-22 03:43:20 <gmaxwell> okay and?
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 505 2013-05-22 03:45:45 <foamy> now, if i want to let some other users from another website that uses the bitcoin blockchain for authentication login to my site
 506 2013-05-22 03:46:02 <foamy> its just a matter of adding THEIR colored coins to my lookup database
 507 2013-05-22 03:46:11 <foamy> and i dont need to store any credentials from the other website
 508 2013-05-22 03:46:19 <foamy> because i already know their public key
 509 2013-05-22 03:46:32 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 510 2013-05-22 03:47:32 <foamy> i would just need to add the rule that says "public keys with X colored coins have user credentials"
 511 2013-05-22 03:47:33 ColinT has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 513 2013-05-22 03:48:32 <gmaxwell> foamy: why not have the user tell that site their address. Then that site publishes signatures of the hashed addresses, or simply gives a signature to the user. Then you just use that. You don't have a consensus problem that needs solving, you potentially just have a communications + PKI one.
 514 2013-05-22 03:49:21 <gwillen> foamy: I haven't thought deeply about your proposal, but keep in mind that data in the blockchain has to be stored on every computer of every bitcoin user forever
 515 2013-05-22 03:49:27 <foamy> i was thinking that but addresses are bad for credentials, far too long for the average person to remember
 516 2013-05-22 03:49:32 <gwillen> foamy: that's a pretty significant expense, if you can keep it elsewhere instead
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 518 2013-05-22 03:49:50 <foamy> well thats why im asking here first
 519 2013-05-22 03:49:59 <foamy> trying to see what the interest is
 520 2013-05-22 03:50:03 * gwillen nods
 521 2013-05-22 03:50:30 <foamy> i mean you are right im adding a lot of overhead to what can be handled very easily with "trust" (ala OAuth)
 522 2013-05-22 03:50:34 <gmaxwell> foamy: then what is the purpose of the public and private keys in the above if you're not actually 'using' addresses.
 523 2013-05-22 03:51:05 <foamy> id be using the addresses on the backend, not the front end
 524 2013-05-22 03:51:24 <gmaxwell> foamy: s/you/you/ :P  Mozilla persona, fwiw, does something strictly superior to oauth... because the identifying server cannot track what sites users visit or censor sites.
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 526 2013-05-22 03:51:42 <foamy> yeah but thats all client sided no?
 527 2013-05-22 03:51:51 <gmaxwell> foamy: okay, well username@site works the same way... they'd get username@site and then consult the sites records to find the key binding and make the user auth with the key.
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 529 2013-05-22 03:52:46 <gmaxwell> foamy: No. The client goes and proves itself to some server (I am gmaxwell! my ephemeral key is X)  and the server signs back a message "X is a good ephemeral key for gmaxwell--server" and then you present that to sites you want to log into with a signature by X.
 530 2013-05-22 03:52:56 OneFixt has joined
 531 2013-05-22 03:52:59 <gmaxwell> (thats an extreme simplification that just covers the cryptographic part)
 532 2013-05-22 03:53:23 <gwillen> Persona is a huge advance in open-standard login protocols -- I would definitely read it if you're working in that space.
 533 2013-05-22 03:53:31 <gwillen> (I have skimmed the spec but don't remember enough of the details to be useful.)
 534 2013-05-22 03:55:33 <gmaxwell> persona is really centered around email as the identifier but the protocol itself is fairly generic. The idea is that you'd trust either foo.com to autheticate gmaxwell@foo.com  OR some authenticating bootstrap server— in this case currently provided by mozilla, but thats just a matter of which keys you trust— because foo.com may not have direct support yet ... to tell you a person really controls that email address. (mozilla does the nor
 535 2013-05-22 03:55:49 <foamy> ah but you see
 536 2013-05-22 03:56:00 <foamy> that relies on Identity Providers still
 537 2013-05-22 03:56:11 <foamy> in this scheme, ANYONE can be an identity provider
 538 2013-05-22 03:56:33 <foamy> because its all on the blockchain 2 sites can't generate the same public key and private key for credentials anyway
 539 2013-05-22 03:56:47 <gmaxwell> no in persona _anyone_ can be an identity provider!
 540 2013-05-22 03:56:56 <gmaxwell> and no blockchain is required.
 541 2013-05-22 03:57:10 <foamy> so how is it distributed?
 542 2013-05-22 03:57:19 <foamy> is there a central key server?
 543 2013-05-22 03:57:24 <gmaxwell> No.
 544 2013-05-22 03:58:12 <gmaxwell> dnssec. Though there is an _optional_ 'centeral' server becuase not all email providers are persona identity providers _yet_. If you don't want to trust the mozilla proxy authenticator, you don't have to. (though it won't work well yet!)
 545 2013-05-22 03:58:38 <gmaxwell> (or you could instead trust some other proxy authenticator, or multiple ones)
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 551 2013-05-22 04:01:14 <foamy> hmmm so basically they are doing the same thing but with dnssec instead of using the blockchain
 552 2013-05-22 04:01:38 <foamy> i dont know much about dnssec tbh
 553 2013-05-22 04:01:42 <foamy> im not very technical
 554 2013-05-22 04:02:45 <gmaxwell> foamy: basically the idea is that the user's client gets a signature from the identity provider proving their identity that anyone can see and know is true, so long as they can go get the identity provider key. ... they could get it from the identity provider themselves, or look it up in any available database.
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 561 2013-05-22 04:05:31 <foamy> ahhh
 562 2013-05-22 04:05:34 <foamy> i gotcha
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 566 2013-05-22 04:05:55 <foamy> so the site just picks which IDP to use
 567 2013-05-22 04:06:09 <foamy> or which IDPs
 568 2013-05-22 04:07:42 <foamy> by site i mean Relaying Party
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 570 2013-05-22 04:10:28 <foamy> oh no wait
 571 2013-05-22 04:10:30 <gmaxwell> the idea is that ideally the site would use the identity source directly, but since thats not yet widely available the site can alternatively trust relaying parties.
 572 2013-05-22 04:10:39 <foamy> yeah
 573 2013-05-22 04:10:42 <foamy> makes sense
 574 2013-05-22 04:10:57 <foamy> so if the domain has implemented Persona GET requests
 575 2013-05-22 04:10:57 <gmaxwell> but at least the relaying parties can't spy on what sites you visit or deny you access to some sites like google/facebook/etc can.
 576 2013-05-22 04:11:15 <foamy> then it would just lookup automatically based on the domain name of the address
 577 2013-05-22 04:11:32 <foamy> so usernames ALWAYS have to be in the format of an "email address"
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 579 2013-05-22 04:11:57 <foamy> and if the domain hasnt implemented it
 580 2013-05-22 04:11:58 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 581 2013-05-22 04:12:04 <foamy> it will use a fallback IDP
 582 2013-05-22 04:12:20 <gmaxwell> yes.
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 584 2013-05-22 04:12:56 <gmaxwell> The goal is to eliminate all centralization and to make the bootstrapping centralization as minimal and harmless as possible.
 585 2013-05-22 04:13:19 <foamy> nice
 586 2013-05-22 04:13:20 <foamy> i like it
 587 2013-05-22 04:13:35 <foamy> very smart implementation, im huffed i didnt think of it :q
 588 2013-05-22 04:13:55 <gmaxwell> :P
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 591 2013-05-22 04:14:13 <amiller> hooray for persona
 592 2013-05-22 04:14:18 <foamy> one thing i might suggest the blockchain might have an advantage over here is the "reliance" on DNS certs in this system
 593 2013-05-22 04:15:12 <gmaxwell> well, if you're willing to identify sites by some cryptographic key id (which is what you'd need in order to use the blockchain for them) you could also do that on top of something like persona e.g. certificate pinning.
 594 2013-05-22 04:15:14 <foamy> but i suppose it beats the overhead involved in trying to piggy back on the blockchain
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 603 2013-05-22 04:28:38 <gmaxwell> yea... Really the blockchain is the most inefficient communications channel ever invented, except perhaps the records on voyger 1 and 2. :P
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 608 2013-05-22 04:32:43 <The_Fly> http://www.rabbitmq.com/ssl.html
 609 2013-05-22 04:32:51 <The_Fly> so i guess for my purposes this is enough
 610 2013-05-22 04:33:13 <The_Fly> can proxy rpc requests through some user-based auth checking
 611 2013-05-22 04:34:14 <The_Fly> combined with http://www.rabbitmq.com/blog/2011/02/07/who-are-you-authentication-and-authorisation-in-rabbitmq-231/
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 624 2013-05-22 04:52:39 <Luke-Jr> bah, 2nd flight had broken wifi
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 629 2013-05-22 04:55:22 <Diablo-D3> The_Fly: what are you using rabbitmq for?
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 635 2013-05-22 05:02:50 <The_Fly> Diablo-D3: to pass notifications to different boxes about wallet transactions that come in
 636 2013-05-22 05:02:58 <Diablo-D3> ahh
 637 2013-05-22 05:03:07 * Diablo-D3 goes back to using erlang.
 638 2013-05-22 05:03:16 <The_Fly> they can also req/rep over to bitcoin rpc
 639 2013-05-22 05:03:19 <gwillen> I should learn erlang.
 640 2013-05-22 05:03:42 <The_Fly> it's nice with that layer of reliability
 641 2013-05-22 05:04:17 <The_Fly> since amqp will persist messages of delivery_mode:2, and you can listen on messages and ack them
 642 2013-05-22 05:04:32 <BCB> Diablo-D3, what are you using erlang for??
 643 2013-05-22 05:04:37 Hunger- has joined
 644 2013-05-22 05:04:46 * The_Fly has yet to write a line of erlang
 645 2013-05-22 05:05:14 <The_Fly> i can get rpc over zeromq
 646 2013-05-22 05:05:31 <The_Fly> not sure if there really needs to be any robustness there
 647 2013-05-22 05:05:56 <The_Fly> well... when sending a transaction the txid back is pretty important
 648 2013-05-22 05:05:58 <Diablo-D3> The_Fly: use rabbitmq instead of zeromq
 649 2013-05-22 05:06:02 <The_Fly> i am
 650 2013-05-22 05:06:03 <Diablo-D3> BCB: for highly concurrent stuff
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 652 2013-05-22 05:06:21 <The_Fly> but using message-pass to get the zeromq output of bitcoind over to rabbitmq
 653 2013-05-22 05:06:25 <BCB> Diablo-D3, specifically.... (just curious) I love erlang
 654 2013-05-22 05:06:31 <The_Fly> that's happening on the same box, either ipc or tcp
 655 2013-05-22 05:06:40 <Diablo-D3> BCB: seeing if I can write forum software that isnt fucking shit
 656 2013-05-22 05:07:13 <The_Fly> message-pass --input ZeroMQ --input_options '{"connect":"tcp://192.168.0.102:12345"}' --output AMQP --output_options '{"exchange_name":"test","exchange_durable":1,"hostname":"127.0.0.1","username":"guest","password":"guest", "queue_name":"test", "queue_durable": 1}'
 657 2013-05-22 05:07:18 <The_Fly> that gets them over to the exchange
 658 2013-05-22 05:07:27 <BCB> Diablo-D3, cool.  Though about that myself.  Or a distributed highly concurrent p2p trading platform.
 659 2013-05-22 05:07:42 <The_Fly> it doesn't matter if bitcoind went down as you'd just run a --rescan
 660 2013-05-22 05:07:51 <The_Fly> and fill the rabbitmq queue
 661 2013-05-22 05:09:12 <The_Fly> anyway, i think for my purposes the rabbitmq auth can probably provide enough to implement some kind of security model
 662 2013-05-22 05:09:13 <Diablo-D3> BCB: Im tired of forums being such shit
 663 2013-05-22 05:09:22 <The_Fly> better than basic http auth
 664 2013-05-22 05:09:25 <Diablo-D3> BCB: you can throw hardware at a problem, you cant throw better code at a problem because I didnt write it yet.
 665 2013-05-22 05:09:58 <Diablo-D3> it shouldnt be hard given how much erlang already does for me
 666 2013-05-22 05:10:30 <BCB> Diablo-D3, I agree.  Every forum i'm on seems so 1970's
 667 2013-05-22 05:11:16 <Diablo-D3> btw, Im using chicago boss
 668 2013-05-22 05:11:24 dvide has quit ()
 669 2013-05-22 05:11:29 <Diablo-D3> seems to handle a fuckton of shit
 670 2013-05-22 05:11:49 ry4nn has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 671 2013-05-22 05:11:57 <BCB> Diablo-D3, ya I just started checking that out
 672 2013-05-22 05:12:05 <BCB> is that still in active development
 673 2013-05-22 05:12:07 <Diablo-D3> its the best web framework out of all of them
 674 2013-05-22 05:12:15 <Diablo-D3> yes, its still in active development
 675 2013-05-22 05:12:23 <Diablo-D3> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGGo6bIuj8w
 676 2013-05-22 05:12:51 <Diablo-D3> has built in clustered event watching and caching
 677 2013-05-22 05:13:20 <Diablo-D3> and a blazingly fast template engine
 678 2013-05-22 05:13:36 <BCB> are you interfacing with ruby?
 679 2013-05-22 05:14:02 <Diablo-D3> no
 680 2013-05-22 05:14:05 <Diablo-D3> cant stand ruby, cant stand ror
 681 2013-05-22 05:14:19 <Diablo-D3> the weird part is, cb does the ror coding model
 682 2013-05-22 05:14:26 <Diablo-D3> well, the ror/nodejs model
 683 2013-05-22 05:14:37 <Diablo-D3> I cant stand ror or nodejs, they're both fucking shit
 684 2013-05-22 05:14:39 <BCB> Diablo-D3, thx for the link.  That is where I heard about it
 685 2013-05-22 05:14:43 <Diablo-D3> anyone who uses them automatically doesnt know how to cold
 686 2013-05-22 05:14:50 <Diablo-D3> er, code
 687 2013-05-22 05:14:56 <Diablo-D3> (lol spellcheck)
 688 2013-05-22 05:15:23 <BCB> Diablo-D3, I'm not a big fan of either
 689 2013-05-22 05:15:41 <BCB> erlang is the first new language (to me) that has be jazzed
 690 2013-05-22 05:15:48 <Diablo-D3> cb doesnt suck dick compared them
 691 2013-05-22 05:15:57 <Diablo-D3> and erlang is probably the language I always wanted but never got around to learning
 692 2013-05-22 05:16:15 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 693 2013-05-22 05:16:35 * copumpkin mumbles something starting with an H and ending in Ell
 694 2013-05-22 05:17:10 AlbertTuring has joined
 695 2013-05-22 05:18:30 <andytoshi> hey, i've got a stupid question
 696 2013-05-22 05:18:32 <andytoshi> what is meant by "child-pays-for-parent"? gmaxwell likes to mention it
 697 2013-05-22 05:20:29 <BCB> "the child is the father of the man"
 698 2013-05-22 05:20:37 <sipa> andytoshi: you have two transactions, a parent that pays little fee and a child (something spending its output) thay pays more fee
 699 2013-05-22 05:20:49 <BCB> William words worth said it first
 700 2013-05-22 05:20:55 <sipa> if both end up in the mempool at once, you combine their fees and let them pay for both
 701 2013-05-22 05:21:11 <sipa> so the parent can get confirmed uaing the fee of the child
 702 2013-05-22 05:21:30 SwedFTP has joined
 703 2013-05-22 05:23:29 <andytoshi> thx sipa
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 707 2013-05-22 05:24:29 <andytoshi> i thought this was for real-life children and parents, some kinda double-signature scheme :P
 708 2013-05-22 05:25:00 <SomeoneWeird> lul
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 747 2013-05-22 06:37:55 <sneak> gmaxwell: it was really fun talking to you and adam at the conference
 748 2013-05-22 06:38:00 <sneak> i learned a lot
 749 2013-05-22 06:39:07 * Luke-Jr is never going to remember who was who at the conf XD
 750 2013-05-22 06:40:06 <coingenuity> Luke-Jr: will remember me!
 751 2013-05-22 06:40:32 <Luke-Jr> coingenuity: not your physical form/face! :/
 752 2013-05-22 06:40:42 <Luke-Jr> coingenuity: where'd you go? I think I only saw you on Friday
 753 2013-05-22 06:40:53 <coingenuity> yah, saw you friday night and briefly sunday afternoon
 754 2013-05-22 06:41:08 <coingenuity> i was just meandering around being a lurk i guess, it was a packed venue
 755 2013-05-22 06:41:26 <Luke-Jr> no kidding
 756 2013-05-22 06:41:49 <Luke-Jr> did we meet up again on Sunday? I must have already forgotten the RL:IRC association by then if so >_<
 757 2013-05-22 06:42:05 <coingenuity> ya, just for a second - i said goodbye on my way out the door to the airport
 758 2013-05-22 06:42:18 <coingenuity> after yifu etc got done asking you questions
 759 2013-05-22 06:42:33 XtraGas has joined
 760 2013-05-22 06:42:42 <coingenuity> i was with the pretty girl and the gigantic-ass dude
 761 2013-05-22 06:42:49 <coingenuity> lmao
 762 2013-05-22 06:42:50 FredEE has joined
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 764 2013-05-22 06:43:10 <saivann> It seemed very nice, I wish I can be there next time and add another face Luke-Jr will have trouble to remember :)
 765 2013-05-22 06:43:28 <Luke-Jr> coingenuity: oh! I *did* miss the link >_<
 766 2013-05-22 06:43:35 <coingenuity> saivann: we'll both be there again i'm sure :D
 767 2013-05-22 06:43:36 <Luke-Jr> saivann: haha
 768 2013-05-22 06:43:43 <saivann> :)
 769 2013-05-22 06:43:56 <Luke-Jr> I hope Satoshi moved on to invent teleportation next
 770 2013-05-22 06:43:58 <lianj> yea, next time everyone please wear a 'my name on freenode is' sticker
 771 2013-05-22 06:44:00 <Luke-Jr> that'd solve it
 772 2013-05-22 06:44:07 <coingenuity> lol Luke-Jr, i toldja you'd remember after a second :D i'm a strange enough guy that im easy to remember
 773 2013-05-22 06:44:10 <Luke-Jr> lianj: that didn't help :/
 774 2013-05-22 06:44:18 <Luke-Jr> lianj: well, maybe it did *while we were there*
 775 2013-05-22 06:44:38 <coingenuity> lianj: yeah, next year i will....hindsight is 20/20
 776 2013-05-22 06:44:50 <coingenuity> tons of people knew me anyway, so it was still fun :D
 777 2013-05-22 06:44:55 * dugo would hate to get stuck in a teleporter mempool for half a day
 778 2013-05-22 06:45:03 <Luke-Jr> I totally neglected to print up businesscard-type things to hand people - seems everyone else had those
 779 2013-05-22 06:45:11 <Luke-Jr> it never even crossed my mind
 780 2013-05-22 06:45:19 <coingenuity> next year ill just broadcast a wifi beacon of "coingenuity" and you guys can wifi-hunt me down
 781 2013-05-22 06:45:20 <Luke-Jr> dugo: pay a higher fee
 782 2013-05-22 06:45:30 <Luke-Jr> coingenuity: mmm, that'd be interesting
 783 2013-05-22 06:45:58 <coingenuity> Luke-Jr: everyone on their laptops all the time, i'd say it'd get some attention from the irc krew
 784 2013-05-22 06:46:25 * Luke-Jr stabs laptops
 785 2013-05-22 06:46:32 <coingenuity> next year ill remember to bring more than, like, 50 business cards... i ran out within like 6 hours
 786 2013-05-22 06:46:33 <Luke-Jr> I am sooooooo glad to be back at my desktop
 787 2013-05-22 06:46:37 <Luke-Jr> lol
 788 2013-05-22 06:46:44 <coingenuity> oh, same here bro - wireless keyboard and bigscreen? fuck yeah
 789 2013-05-22 06:46:55 <coingenuity> love my 4u steel beheamots
 790 2013-05-22 06:46:58 <coingenuity> beheamoths*
 791 2013-05-22 06:47:38 <Luke-Jr> the only 4U I have at home is an ancient P3 :P
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 796 2013-05-22 06:48:40 <coingenuity> i keep upgrading my chassis over and over
 797 2013-05-22 06:48:49 <coingenuity> its a great setup
 798 2013-05-22 06:49:04 <coingenuity> big cage that fits 10ish hdd's, tons of fans, etc
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 800 2013-05-22 07:03:50 <Neozonz> what are bitcoind nodes?
 801 2013-05-22 07:03:58 <Neozonz> and what are the advantages to connecting to them?
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 821 2013-05-22 07:29:18 <warren> sipa: hmm, how do I make a wallet.dat with only certain keys and without the reserve keypool?
 822 2013-05-22 07:29:29 <warren> and prevent bitcoin from adding more
 823 2013-05-22 07:29:41 <maaku> warren: pywallet
 824 2013-05-22 07:29:52 <warren> pywallet can make a wallet from scratch?
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 827 2013-05-22 07:30:56 <warren> Is there a standard way to prevent bitcoin from adding a new keypool?
 828 2013-05-22 07:30:59 <michagogo> warren: You can set keypool to 0
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 830 2013-05-22 07:31:33 <michagogo> -keypool=0 in command line, or keypool=0 in config gile
 831 2013-05-22 07:31:36 <warren> oh ok.  how do I create the minimal wallet.dat?
 832 2013-05-22 07:31:36 <michagogo> file*
 833 2013-05-22 07:32:06 <michagogo> warren: Just start bitcoind (or -qt) with keypool set to 0 and wallet.dat missing, I think
 834 2013-05-22 07:32:23 <michagogo> Also, you can importprivkey
 835 2013-05-22 07:32:43 <warren> ok, I'll see if t can create an empty wallet.dat
 836 2013-05-22 07:32:51 <michagogo> Not sure you need pywallet, unless bitcoin[d|-qt] will create one address even with keypool set to 0
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 850 2013-05-22 08:00:10 <Neozonz> anyone here very good with p2pool?
 851 2013-05-22 08:00:22 <Luke-Jr> try #p2pool ?
 852 2013-05-22 08:00:34 <Neozonz> just a question regarding p2pool
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 854 2013-05-22 08:00:49 <SomeoneWeird> #p2pool
 855 2013-05-22 08:00:50 <Neozonz> I removed all the bootstrap addr, now in this case- i would become an independant pool right?
 856 2013-05-22 08:00:52 RazielZ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 857 2013-05-22 08:01:12 <Luke-Jr> unlikely
 858 2013-05-22 08:01:43 zeph97 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 859 2013-05-22 08:02:00 <Neozonz> https://forum.litecoin.net/index.php/topic,1558.msg24841.html#msg24841
 860 2013-05-22 08:02:34 <Neozonz> this a lie then? :o
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 866 2013-05-22 08:03:31 <duSn> disinfo?
 867 2013-05-22 08:03:59 qbasicer has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 868 2013-05-22 08:04:04 <Neozonz> ?
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 872 2013-05-22 08:07:18 <duSn> no disinfo
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 875 2013-05-22 08:07:29 <Neozonz> what?
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 878 2013-05-22 08:09:20 <Luke-Jr> Neozonz: I wouldn't expect to find many clueful people messing with Litecoin
 879 2013-05-22 08:09:39 <warren> Luke-Jr: yup, there are none.
 880 2013-05-22 08:09:44 <Luke-Jr> well, not none
 881 2013-05-22 08:09:54 <Luke-Jr> but those who are clueful usually avoid the rest of litecoin users <.<
 882 2013-05-22 08:10:48 <foamy> how are race commissions handled by the protocol?
 883 2013-05-22 08:11:25 <foamy> i.e. if two miners mine a new block before either are informed that the other has done so
 884 2013-05-22 08:11:38 <foamy> and both try to propogate their block
 885 2013-05-22 08:11:48 <Luke-Jr> foamy: it's unresolved until the next block
 886 2013-05-22 08:11:54 <Luke-Jr> and that block decides which one prevails
 887 2013-05-22 08:12:06 <Luke-Jr> same thing recursively, if it races again
 888 2013-05-22 08:12:22 <foamy> i see
 889 2013-05-22 08:13:16 <Neozonz> Luke-Jr I've been trying to get stratum mining to work, maybe u could help?
 890 2013-05-22 08:13:30 melvster has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 891 2013-05-22 08:13:51 <Luke-Jr> Neozonz: not interested in helping anything Litecoin
 892 2013-05-22 08:14:03 melvster has joined
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 894 2013-05-22 08:14:07 <Luke-Jr> please keep in mind this is #bitcoin-dev
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 897 2013-05-22 08:14:22 <Neozonz> :< okayy
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 905 2013-05-22 08:28:23 <dansmith_btc> Has anyone succeded in using testnet-in-a-box? I followed the Readme of http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/testnet-in-a-box/ to a tee.
 906 2013-05-22 08:28:44 <dansmith_btc> getmininginfo gives me   "blocks" : 0,
 907 2013-05-22 08:28:44 <dansmith_btc>     "currentblocksize" : 0,
 908 2013-05-22 08:28:44 <dansmith_btc>     "currentblocktx" : 0,
 909 2013-05-22 08:28:44 <dansmith_btc>     "difficulty" : 1.00000000,
 910 2013-05-22 08:28:44 <dansmith_btc>     "errors" : "",
 911 2013-05-22 08:28:45 <dansmith_btc>     "generate" : true,
 912 2013-05-22 08:28:47 <dansmith_btc>     "genproclimit" : -1,
 913 2013-05-22 08:28:49 <dansmith_btc>     "hashespersec" : 0,
 914 2013-05-22 08:28:51 <dansmith_btc>     "pooledtx" : 0,
 915 2013-05-22 08:28:53 <dansmith_btc>     "testnet" : true
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 917 2013-05-22 08:30:55 <SomeoneWeird> dansmith_btc, and the problem is?
 918 2013-05-22 08:31:11 <dansmith_btc> Someguy123, no coins are being generated
 919 2013-05-22 08:31:18 <dansmith_btc>  "hashespersec" : 0,
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 921 2013-05-22 08:32:43 <SomeoneWeird> oh, right, didn't see that. what cpu do you have?
 922 2013-05-22 08:32:44 <MoALTz> -gen=1     cpu mines in bitcoin-qt
 923 2013-05-22 08:33:01 <SomeoneWeird> MoALTz, generates already set to true
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 928 2013-05-22 08:36:28 <MoALTz> have you checked the cpu usage? by default it tries to use all logical processors. task manager in windows; top on *nix
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 965 2013-05-22 09:13:55 <warren> github is down?
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 967 2013-05-22 09:14:17 <throughnothing> anyone around
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 969 2013-05-22 09:14:29 <throughnothing> warren: its up for me
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 975 2013-05-22 09:18:33 <fanquake> They've been doing maintenance over the past day or so, but should be back up as of 4 hours ago
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 979 2013-05-22 09:22:39 _KGBot_ is now known as kn0tsel
 980 2013-05-22 09:23:01 <BlueMatt> ;;seen Goonie
 981 2013-05-22 09:23:01 <gribble> Goonie was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 7 weeks, 1 day, 10 hours, 34 minutes, and 42 seconds ago: <Goonie> hopefully we will be soon paying in satoshis only. That's a nice name.
 982 2013-05-22 09:23:02 <BlueMatt> ;;seen Goonie_
 983 2013-05-22 09:23:02 <gribble> Goonie_ was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 day, 9 hours, 20 minutes, and 46 seconds ago: <Goonie_> what's the plan for 0.8.2? will there be an additional rc2?
 984 2013-05-22 09:23:37 <kn0tsel> So i've been trying to get the daemon to run but to no avail, yet..
 985 2013-05-22 09:24:35 porquilho has joined
 986 2013-05-22 09:25:21 <kn0tsel> Some rediculously long error code.. http://pastebin.com/SctFJSzZ
 987 2013-05-22 09:26:28 <Luke-Jr> kn0tsel: BSD is not really supported yet
 988 2013-05-22 09:26:33 <Luke-Jr> kn0tsel: and -h is not an option
 989 2013-05-22 09:26:39 <Luke-Jr> try --help
 990 2013-05-22 09:27:42 <throughnothing> is N of M multisignature wallets currently supported in most clients?
 991 2013-05-22 09:27:44 da2ce7 has joined
 992 2013-05-22 09:27:46 <warren> hmm... why does the gitian .yml's build only win32?
 993 2013-05-22 09:27:48 <kn0tsel> Luke-Jr: How do u know & that's exactly what i've done..
 994 2013-05-22 09:27:51 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
 995 2013-05-22 09:28:36 <kn0tsel> What about the need for qt, i'm running a terminal server..
 996 2013-05-22 09:28:44 <Luke-Jr> warren: the win32 ones build only win32, and the non-win32 ones build only linux
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 998 2013-05-22 09:29:12 <Luke-Jr> throughnothing: not really
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1000 2013-05-22 09:29:40 <kn0tsel> So that means we're gonna have to re-write the code right..
1001 2013-05-22 09:29:43 <throughnothing> Luke-Jr: cool, just curious :(
1002 2013-05-22 09:30:28 <Luke-Jr> kn0tsel: if you want BSD support, have some BSD developer actively contribute to the client
1003 2013-05-22 09:30:53 <Luke-Jr> kn0tsel: right now, of Bitcoin-Qt developers, 1 uses Windows, and all the rest use Linux
1004 2013-05-22 09:31:08 <kn0tsel> Luke-Jr: Like myself u mean..
1005 2013-05-22 09:31:33 <Luke-Jr> kn0tsel: dunno, usually C++ developers know how to spell "you"
1006 2013-05-22 09:31:35 <throughnothing> I was thinking something that might be cool to get people using bitcoin, would be to do something similar to "Jonathan's Card", which was an 'open' starbucks gift card, that anyone could use and add money to
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1008 2013-05-22 09:31:52 <throughnothing> and people could watch what happens to it, etc.
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1010 2013-05-22 09:32:09 <throughnothing> wondering how feasible/useful that might be with a bitcoin wallet that someone puts a few bucks in and releases the public key
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1012 2013-05-22 09:32:25 <throughnothing> and tracks with a twitter feed or something that broadcasts the balance, when it gets spent and when it gets added to
1013 2013-05-22 09:32:29 <throughnothing> https://twitter.com/jonathanscard
1014 2013-05-22 09:32:32 da2ce7 has joined
1015 2013-05-22 09:32:43 <throughnothing> s/public key/private key
1016 2013-05-22 09:32:49 MobPhone has joined
1017 2013-05-22 09:32:58 <kn0tsel> Luke-Jr: We're just lazy, that's all.. But Yes, We Can..
1018 2013-05-22 09:33:29 <Luke-Jr> kn0tsel: great, so clone the git repo, make it work, and send a pullreq
1019 2013-05-22 09:34:22 <kn0tsel> Luke-Jr: it's gonna take some time i guess but i'll work it..
1020 2013-05-22 09:34:36 <Luke-Jr> hope you're at least using little endian..
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1023 2013-05-22 09:36:05 <kn0tsel> or we'll change it to BIG if u want, no probs..
1024 2013-05-22 09:37:00 <Luke-Jr> trust me, you don't want to tackle both of those at once..
1025 2013-05-22 09:37:17 <Luke-Jr> I started a big endian port a while back, and it was nowhere near as simple as I'd hoped
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1027 2013-05-22 09:38:19 <kn0tsel> Cool, L8r..
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1040 2013-05-22 09:48:43 <warren> Luke-Jr: I meant, win64 isn't important?
1041 2013-05-22 09:48:55 <Luke-Jr> warren: meh
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1046 2013-05-22 09:52:29 <warren> just wait when the UXTO set can't fit in 32bit memory =)
1047 2013-05-22 09:54:34 <Luke-Jr> it's not stored in memory
1048 2013-05-22 09:56:56 <lupine> people still run 32-bit?
1049 2013-05-22 09:58:25 <Luke-Jr> Windows is 32-bit <.<
1050 2013-05-22 09:58:44 <SomeoneWeird> since when :P
1051 2013-05-22 09:59:07 <Luke-Jr> always
1052 2013-05-22 09:59:17 <Luke-Jr> even the "64-bit" versions are really just dual-bitness
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1055 2013-05-22 10:02:57 <lupine> I guess a lot of mobile chips are still 32-bit
1056 2013-05-22 10:03:08 <lupine> arm64 isn't popular yet
1057 2013-05-22 10:03:18 <Luke-Jr> well yeah, I think virtually all ARM in production is 32-bit
1058 2013-05-22 10:03:25 <Luke-Jr> same for MIPS
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1064 2013-05-22 10:10:17 <dansmith_btc> MoALTz, Someguy123 , wrt testnet-in-a-box not mining, even though "generate":true,  I've got  Intel(R) Celeron(R) CPU B820 @ 1.70GHz and top shows no CPU activity for bitcoind
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1066 2013-05-22 10:15:36 <SomeoneWeird> Celeron(R) < there's your problem
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1095 2013-05-22 11:06:26 <foamy> can someone tell me what is actually involved when a node verifies a new block
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1100 2013-05-22 11:11:32 <eps> i guess it checks whether it contains a hash of previous block that it new about and checks the transactions in the block aren't double spending
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1124 2013-05-22 11:35:42 <foamy> so why would a greater than 1MB block size make it too difficult to verify
1125 2013-05-22 11:36:03 <MC1984> http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/05/the_eyes_and_ea.html Schneiers blog posts are rather dark these days
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1127 2013-05-22 11:37:44 <MC1984> foamy it would be moe difficult to verify for regular nodes on residential connections in peoples houses, so it would shrink th core of the network
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1129 2013-05-22 11:38:50 <foamy> why would it be more difficult though? if all you are verifying is that it contains a hash of a previous block and that there are no double spends...
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1131 2013-05-22 11:40:17 <MC1984> more txns to verify, more data to store, more data to upload and download
1132 2013-05-22 11:40:38 <mhanne> foamy: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_rules#.22block.22_messages that's what it has to verify
1133 2013-05-22 11:40:54 <mhanne> the prev block hash is only one of those things
1134 2013-05-22 11:41:13 <MC1984> its just a force that tends to run regular people out of the node market
1135 2013-05-22 11:41:40 <MC1984> whereas general advancement of technology is a force that tends to make more people available as node runners
1136 2013-05-22 11:41:44 <MC1984> balance must be struck
1137 2013-05-22 11:41:54 <foamy> mhanne thanks thats what i was looking for
1138 2013-05-22 11:42:01 <foamy> so it would just take nodes longer to verify
1139 2013-05-22 11:42:06 <foamy> why would that push them out of the network?
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1141 2013-05-22 11:42:44 <foamy> as long as it takes less than 10 minutes to verify
1142 2013-05-22 11:42:53 <foamy> there shouldnt be a problem no?
1143 2013-05-22 11:43:20 <MC1984> no, they should be abl to verify and forwards asap
1144 2013-05-22 11:43:44 <foamy> well ideally sure
1145 2013-05-22 11:43:53 <foamy> but as long as they can verify before a new block is generated
1146 2013-05-22 11:44:04 <foamy> they can still maintain a valid blockchain
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1149 2013-05-22 11:44:16 <foamy> although the incentives become lower
1150 2013-05-22 11:44:24 <foamy> since they have less time to mine
1151 2013-05-22 11:44:41 <MC1984> if it takes a node 9 minutes to verify a block and start forwading it, its verification function is just about useless
1152 2013-05-22 11:45:00 <MC1984> + people are already butthurt about 8 god damn gigabytes
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1156 2013-05-22 11:45:17 <foamy> well im not saying 9 minutes, thats obviously an extreme
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1158 2013-05-22 11:45:33 <MC1984> most of them have more than that in porn thumbnails in their browser cache
1159 2013-05-22 11:45:39 <foamy> im just saying that as long as its under 10 the network still works
1160 2013-05-22 11:46:19 <MC1984> the network would still work if only miners were nodes too
1161 2013-05-22 11:46:24 <MC1984> but thats not desireable
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1163 2013-05-22 11:47:39 <MC1984> it wont stay 1mb forever, but i think block increases should be done in an extremely conservative manner
1164 2013-05-22 11:47:56 <MC1984> some people want to literally uncap it today
1165 2013-05-22 11:48:07 <MC1984> they dont see a problem with that because GROWTH
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1176 2013-05-22 12:10:09 <eps> wait did we go to 1mb blocks already?
1177 2013-05-22 12:11:34 <MC1984> technically yes
1178 2013-05-22 12:11:40 <MC1984> no ones mining them though
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1181 2013-05-22 12:12:42 <eps> i don't like the 0.8.1
1182 2013-05-22 12:12:59 <eps> it seems to be more resource intensive than 0.7
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1189 2013-05-22 12:27:32 <Luke-Jr> eps: so use 0.7.3
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1191 2013-05-22 12:27:45 <Luke-Jr> eps: but really, 0.8.x should be LESS resource intensive
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1196 2013-05-22 12:31:43 <jonass> having a TxIn with Prevout.hash as well as the scriptSig. How do i get the TxIn bitcoin address?
1197 2013-05-22 12:32:43 <Luke-Jr> jonass: inputs don't have addresses
1198 2013-05-22 12:33:08 <Luke-Jr> Bitcoin has no way to identify the sender, only the receiver
1199 2013-05-22 12:33:41 <Luke-Jr> but since you need a new address for every transaction, you can just note who you're telling the address
1200 2013-05-22 12:33:49 <Luke-Jr> and then you know if you receive on it, it's from them
1201 2013-05-22 12:35:23 <BlueMatt> foamy: if a block were 2 MB, it really wouldnt matter much
1202 2013-05-22 12:35:27 <BlueMatt> if a block were 1GB, it might
1203 2013-05-22 12:35:37 <jonass> Luke-Jr Thanks.? hmm?  but how does a SPV client detects outgoin payments related to a own private key (to build a pk related transaction list)?
1204 2013-05-22 12:36:01 <Luke-Jr> jonass: I don't know if they can :/
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1207 2013-05-22 12:36:14 <BlueMatt> foamy: the actual disk usage of a full block history isnt a big deal (there are other ways to address that), but if a block takes > a few seconds to verify on an average machine it could be a problem
1208 2013-05-22 12:36:26 <BlueMatt> foamy: luckily a few seconds could allow for /massive/ blocks
1209 2013-05-22 12:36:44 * Luke-Jr should save that quote of TD saying people should just use SPV
1210 2013-05-22 12:37:33 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: sure they can
1211 2013-05-22 12:37:38 <jonass> Luke-Jr thanks! I might have a closer look into bitcoinj/multibits sources
1212 2013-05-22 12:37:54 <BlueMatt> jonass: if its based on their own address/pubkey, then they signed it, so they know...
1213 2013-05-22 12:37:57 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: as in, only datacenters (ie, Google) running full nodes
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1215 2013-05-22 12:38:08 <kuzetsa> eh
1216 2013-05-22 12:38:10 <kuzetsa> I like google
1217 2013-05-22 12:38:16 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: I presume he means outside-created spends
1218 2013-05-22 12:38:18 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: wasnt referring to that statement
1219 2013-05-22 12:38:34 <BlueMatt> jonass: if they received it, they check if its known input is a known type (because they have the output, because its theirs)
1220 2013-05-22 12:39:27 <jonass> BlueMatt sounds logical. Thanks!
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1222 2013-05-22 12:40:14 <kuzetsa> the politics of "corporations are evil, avoid them" don't really enter into my views on how bitcoin should or shouldn't evolve
1223 2013-05-22 12:40:41 <Luke-Jr> maybe not all corps, but Google sure is evil
1224 2013-05-22 12:40:42 <BlueMatt> kuzetsa: for the sake of avoiding political discussions on irc, can we not go down that road?
1225 2013-05-22 12:40:53 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: ^
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1227 2013-05-22 12:41:02 <kuzetsa> BlueMatt: indeed. was responding to luke's "datacenters" argument.
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1248 2013-05-22 13:22:05 <mhanne> Luke-Jr: is this an eligius block? http://webbtc.com/tx/59e1cfdd7061683c17931611c0e316cfeaabe1b1dc014f37f8094057e7a7264f
1249 2013-05-22 13:22:15 <mhanne> i wonder what the last output is.. and why there is one pubkey output
1250 2013-05-22 13:24:04 <Luke-Jr> mhanne: more likely p2pool
1251 2013-05-22 13:25:14 <mhanne> ah cool
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1264 2013-05-22 13:42:07 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I need viewTemp. Is there a way to make it non-slow?
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1266 2013-05-22 13:44:32 <nsh> assume it always returns true and memoize
1267 2013-05-22 13:45:01 <dansmith_btc> SomeoneWeird, could you please elaborate on Celeron-mining problem connection. I searched the internets and there seems to be no mention of Celeron as a culprit.
1268 2013-05-22 13:45:31 <SomeoneWeird> it's a really shit cpu, that's what
1269 2013-05-22 13:45:33 <SomeoneWeird> sorry.
1270 2013-05-22 13:45:49 <SomeoneWeird> if you're cpu mining, you need a decent cpu
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1274 2013-05-22 13:48:46 <Luke-Jr> nsh: it's not a function
1275 2013-05-22 13:49:08 <nsh> ok, i retract my position
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1291 2013-05-22 14:04:45 <eps> [51962.589034] bitcoin-loadblk[23862]: segfault at 7fa7b01bf9b8 ip 00007fa7bce338fa sp 00007fa7bb0638a0 error 4 in libc-2.13.so[7fa7bcdba000+18d000]
1292 2013-05-22 14:04:53 <eps> any ideas anyone?
1293 2013-05-22 14:05:08 <eps> it's 8.1 btw
1294 2013-05-22 14:05:41 <eps> i guess my computer must be screwed... probably the disk
1295 2013-05-22 14:06:16 <Animazing> if you think the disk is the culprit try a smartctl
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1298 2013-05-22 14:08:11 <B0g4r7_> I want to move a bitcoin address (its keys) from one wallet to another.  It looks like I'd call dumpprivkey to get the private key from the source wallet, and them importprivkey to insert it into the destination wallet, but then I don't see a way to remove it from the source wallet.
1299 2013-05-22 14:08:29 <nsh> eps, backtrace would let us know which function called libc with bad arguments
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1302 2013-05-22 14:09:39 <BlueMatt> eps: that isnt particularly useful, any chance you can reproduce in gdb and provide a stack trace?
1303 2013-05-22 14:09:44 <BlueMatt> (or reproduce at all)
1304 2013-05-22 14:10:26 <B0g4r7_> Is there a way to remove the private key from the wallet, or will I have to make a new wallet and move my funds and destroy the old wallet?
1305 2013-05-22 14:10:47 <B0g4r7_> Or rather, make a new wallet and import all keys except the one I want to exclude.
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1307 2013-05-22 14:11:22 <sydna> B0g4r7_: I believe you can use pywallet to delete addresses
1308 2013-05-22 14:11:32 <eps> Animazing: thanks, the disk passes a health check for what it's worth
1309 2013-05-22 14:11:42 <eps> BlueMatt: ok I will give it a go
1310 2013-05-22 14:13:43 <B0g4r7_> Hm, looks like it might.  Thanks.
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1313 2013-05-22 14:21:18 <jonass> how do i detect if a node has finished response with "block-messages" after a "getblocks" call? Just count up to 500? What if chain-end?
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1323 2013-05-22 14:26:35 <sipa> Luke-Jr: what do you need it for?
1324 2013-05-22 14:27:31 <Luke-Jr> sipa: ability to undo a multi-transaction add (child-pays-for-parent where a later parent fails)
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1344 2013-05-22 14:45:39 <Scrat> anyone know if this can be done with the armory python tools? https://github.com/etotheipi/BitcoinArmory/issues/40
1345 2013-05-22 14:45:51 <Scrat> (etotheipi hasn't been in this channel the past few days :/)
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1371 2013-05-22 15:16:17 <wallet43> how can i get priority of a mempool tx?
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1389 2013-05-22 15:33:56 <k00shi> Have you guys seen proofofexistence.com: "Upload a document and have it certified by the Bitcoin blockchain"
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1392 2013-05-22 15:36:03 <MC1984> yeah
1393 2013-05-22 15:36:57 <MC1984> blockchain timestamping is an obvious and massively useful application of the technology but it should be done on an altchain
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1397 2013-05-22 15:38:55 <gmaxwell> MC1984: it can be done in a way which is completely costless for bitcoin users
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1399 2013-05-22 15:39:30 <gmaxwell> Unfortunately pratically everyone who does it doesn't do it that way and instead does it one or another incompetent way that results in an unspendable transaction.
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1401 2013-05-22 15:39:45 <MC1984> merge mining?
1402 2013-05-22 15:39:50 <gmaxwell> Yea.
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1404 2013-05-22 15:40:18 <MC1984> problem is convinving pools to merge mine your project
1405 2013-05-22 15:40:25 <sydna> if you wanted to do it in the real blockchain, couldn't you just make a 0BTC TX?
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1407 2013-05-22 15:40:41 <sydna> then you don't burn coins, bloat is minimal
1408 2013-05-22 15:40:58 <MC1984> surely thats nonstandard
1409 2013-05-22 15:41:05 <sydna> nope
1410 2013-05-22 15:41:09 <kinlo> merged mining is a standard
1411 2013-05-22 15:41:18 <gmaxwell> MC1984: not really O(N) scaling.
1412 2013-05-22 15:41:25 <kinlo> and if your project is secure and sound, I might even mine on it
1413 2013-05-22 15:41:32 <gmaxwell> the fuck? the bloat is that the bitcoin network would have to _forever_ store your hash in the utxo set. and it has lame O(N) scaling.
1414 2013-05-22 15:41:51 <gmaxwell> MC1984: ignore last message to you something weird happened in my client. :P
1415 2013-05-22 15:41:59 <gmaxwell> 08:16 < MC1984> problem is convinving pools to merge mine your project
1416 2013-05-22 15:42:13 <gmaxwell> ^ nah, if people write good software we'll get tools to integrate it by default.
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1418 2013-05-22 15:42:22 <sydna> gmaxwell: relatively little then. better than the idiots storing binaries in the thing.
1419 2013-05-22 15:42:25 <MC1984> oh cool
1420 2013-05-22 15:42:50 <sydna> gmaxwell: some moron on reddit decided that the best place to "hide" his wallet.dat was to encode it in transactions.
1421 2013-05-22 15:42:53 <MC1984> sydna probably not better actually
1422 2013-05-22 15:43:08 <gmaxwell> sydna: 50 bytes of data per commitment that must be stored forever isn't little compared to 0 bytes.
1423 2013-05-22 15:43:09 <MC1984> utxo spam is more problematic than chain cpam
1424 2013-05-22 15:43:44 <gmaxwell> sydna: sure, but he wouldn't be satisified by storing a hash of his wallet.
1425 2013-05-22 15:43:54 <gmaxwell> so, … apples and pears.
1426 2013-05-22 15:43:54 <sydna> gmaxwell: better than storing your whole wallet.dat in the blockchan, you can admit that much
1427 2013-05-22 15:44:28 <gmaxwell> sydna: it's also better that feeding a classroom full of first graders to a tree mulcher. I'm not sure why you're comparing these things. :P
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1429 2013-05-22 15:44:45 <MC1984> backing up your wallet.dat........in the blockchain
1430 2013-05-22 15:44:52 <MC1984> thats so crazy it just might work
1431 2013-05-22 15:45:10 <sydna> gmaxwell: I more wanted to bring attention to the absurdity of doing the wallet thing, more then the sensibility of storing any arbitrary data there
1432 2013-05-22 15:45:27 <gmaxwell> :) indeed. thats stupid squared.
1433 2013-05-22 15:45:39 <sydna> MC1984: except that now you have to remember a TXID, and the wallets password. you'd have been better using a deterministic wallet and just writing it down.
1434 2013-05-22 15:45:40 <gmaxwell> MC1984: work ... for getting you robbed?
1435 2013-05-22 15:46:07 <sydna> gmaxwell: I imagine one could find his wallet just by searching the raw blocks
1436 2013-05-22 15:46:10 <MC1984> didnt say it was secure, but your wallet aint not gonna go missing
1437 2013-05-22 15:46:33 <sydna> unless somebody else steals the content, or you forget the password or TXID
1438 2013-05-22 15:46:57 <sydna> I mean, right now I have a copy of his wallet, I just don't know where it is
1439 2013-05-22 15:47:28 <MC1984> im joking the jokes of fools guys, i dont advocate storing binary in the chain
1440 2013-05-22 15:47:40 * sydna pats MC1984 
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1445 2013-05-22 15:49:36 <MC1984> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn is this like a progenitor of the venus project
1446 2013-05-22 15:49:37 <MC1984> damn
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1468 2013-05-22 16:07:52 <pjorrit> haha that's some awesome stuff MC1984 ;)
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1471 2013-05-22 16:09:06 <sipa> Luke-Jr: in that case you need the viewTemp, unless we can guarantee it doesn't fail
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1476 2013-05-22 16:10:32 <sipa> Luke-Jr: for performance, i think that should generally be the way to go
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1509 2013-05-22 16:45:27 <eps> BlueMatt: i ran it again in GDB, after clearing the .bitcoin directory, it didn't segfualt this time but it exited complaining about a corrupt database
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1516 2013-05-22 16:54:10 <BlueMatt> eps: with an empty .bitcoin?
1517 2013-05-22 16:54:35 <eps> BlueMatt: yup
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1519 2013-05-22 16:54:45 <eps> BlueMatt: i know, it has to be my computer right?
1520 2013-05-22 16:54:52 <BlueMatt> whats the actual error message from debug.log?
1521 2013-05-22 16:55:03 <k00shi> Is bitcoind both big and little endian-friendly at this point?
1522 2013-05-22 16:55:10 <BlueMatt> not even close
1523 2013-05-22 16:55:31 <k00shi> Right then.
1524 2013-05-22 16:55:34 <donpdonp> what uses big-endian these days?
1525 2013-05-22 16:56:00 <eps> BlueMatt: oh sorry, i restarted it in GDB with -reindex
1526 2013-05-22 16:56:10 <eps> BlueMatt: i will make a note of it next time
1527 2013-05-22 16:56:14 <k00shi> PowerPC chips in big endian mode?
1528 2013-05-22 16:56:18 <eps> i have had that message a few times now
1529 2013-05-22 16:56:22 <sydna> k00shi: yep
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1531 2013-05-22 16:56:27 <BlueMatt> eps: windows/linux/mac?
1532 2013-05-22 16:57:00 <eps> ubuntu natty
1533 2013-05-22 16:57:07 <eps> natty, that's quite old isn't it?
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1535 2013-05-22 16:58:12 <BlueMatt> are you using the ppa?
1536 2013-05-22 16:58:37 <BlueMatt> (ie what version of bitcoind?)
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1578 2013-05-22 17:35:39 <sydna> is -blocknotify triggered when catching up with the blockchain?
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1581 2013-05-22 17:37:30 <gmaxwell> sydna: it's not triggered during 'initial catchup' or reindex, the test isn't super simple.
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1583 2013-05-22 17:39:45 <sydna> gmaxwell: ah, thank you! I was wondering why I was getting conflicting information with that
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1589 2013-05-22 17:42:21 <MC1984> ignoring large orphan txn size 14447
1590 2013-05-22 17:42:21 <MC1984> wow
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1593 2013-05-22 17:42:45 <sydna> heh, there was a 100kb orphan with the horse staple spam
1594 2013-05-22 17:46:47 <michagogo> sydna: Yeah, someone pushtx'd a whole bunch of those via bc.i
1595 2013-05-22 17:47:13 brson has joined
1596 2013-05-22 17:47:14 <sydna> they're still sitting around
1597 2013-05-22 17:47:26 <michagogo> Unconfirmed, I'm assuming
1598 2013-05-22 17:47:30 <sydna> indeed
1599 2013-05-22 17:47:34 <sydna> I can't believe that blockchain.info doesn't have flood controls
1600 2013-05-22 17:47:34 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1601 2013-05-22 17:47:46 <sydna> they sent like, 3000TX in a few minutes
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1603 2013-05-22 17:49:55 <eps> BlueMatt: http://pastebin.com/KVgwXeky
1604 2013-05-22 17:50:24 <eps> BlueMatt: 0.8.1, binary downloaded from bitcoin.org
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1606 2013-05-22 17:53:38 <MC1984> database corupted?
1607 2013-05-22 17:54:15 <eps> yup
1608 2013-05-22 17:54:37 <eps> it's weird, the box seems fine, i have other stuff running but it is not under a heavy load
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1613 2013-05-22 17:55:22 <MC1984> are you sure
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1615 2013-05-22 17:56:02 <MC1984> i have heard the leveldb is suppored to be uncorruptable discounting hardware fault
1616 2013-05-22 17:56:31 <eps> well i thought it might be the disk, but it passes a smartctl helath check
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1618 2013-05-22 17:57:05 <gmaxwell> eps: what OS? have you been low on space?
1619 2013-05-22 17:57:18 <eps> 40 GB free
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1621 2013-05-22 17:57:21 <eps> ubuntu natty
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1623 2013-05-22 17:58:50 <topi`> duh, more phishing attempts. I guess just by idling on this channel
1624 2013-05-22 17:59:53 <MC1984> dont be a pussy, im sure those exciting offers are all above board
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1626 2013-05-22 18:02:22 <eps> i'm running it again anyway with -reindex, will be interesting to see if it chokes on the same block
1627 2013-05-22 18:02:53 <eps> it's also under GDB as well, just in case it segfaults again
1628 2013-05-22 18:04:11 <michagogo> eps: Why do you use 11.10
1629 2013-05-22 18:04:12 <michagogo> ?
1630 2013-05-22 18:04:21 <eps> i dunno
1631 2013-05-22 18:04:28 <michagogo> Why not 1[23].04?
1632 2013-05-22 18:04:51 <michagogo> 13.04 is current, 12.04 is current LTS
1633 2013-05-22 18:04:57 <eps> i guess i upgraded it a while back and haven't been bothered to upgrade since
1634 2013-05-22 18:05:25 <eps> 0.7.x worked fine
1635 2013-05-22 18:05:41 <eps> ok load is now 1.5
1636 2013-05-22 18:05:53 <sipa> i have a suspicion that 0.7 allowed much more silent corruption
1637 2013-05-22 18:06:23 <sipa> so databases ended up being corrupted just as much, but it took much longer before a problem appeared (and the problem usually was a stuck sync)
1638 2013-05-22 18:07:25 <eps> sipa: i have cleared the .bitcoin directory a couple of times now
1639 2013-05-22 18:07:36 <eps> so i guess that means it must be hardware
1640 2013-05-22 18:07:54 <MC1984> could have been a random bus error
1641 2013-05-22 18:07:57 <eps> since i have have the corrupted database message several times and one segfault
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1662 2013-05-22 18:24:36 <k00shi> Hm? sipa to the rescue on a wallet once again? :)
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1666 2013-05-22 18:26:06 <eps> it's gone past the previous block where it failed
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1668 2013-05-22 18:26:56 <eps> what is the current thinking about electrum and deterministic wallets?
1669 2013-05-22 18:27:04 <eps> good idea?
1670 2013-05-22 18:28:33 <sipa> it's pretty much accepted that deterministic wallets are the way forward
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1672 2013-05-22 18:28:51 <sipa> i don't know of any wallet client that doesn't plan on implementing them
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1674 2013-05-22 18:29:04 <eps> is twelve random words secure enough?
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1681 2013-05-22 18:29:58 <phantomcircuit> eps, depends on the dictionary size and how random random is
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1683 2013-05-22 18:30:48 <sipa> eps: if they are really uniformly random, and they are taken from a dictionary of at least ~1625, yes
1684 2013-05-22 18:30:57 <sipa> (that would result in 128 bits of entropy)
1685 2013-05-22 18:31:21 <eps> yeah, just reading the electrum wiki page, says 128 bits
1686 2013-05-22 18:31:30 <grau> sipa, gmaxwell: It was nice of you stepping by the booth at bitcoin2013. I was pleased to hear from others that the core team spoke positive of bits of proof. Thanks a lot.
1687 2013-05-22 18:32:24 <grau> I picked up tens of customers for trial, so you might see some of it around on the network.
1688 2013-05-22 18:33:14 <nsh> grau, trial of ?
1689 2013-05-22 18:33:52 <grau> BOP Enterprise Server. A supported and hosted bitcoin node.
1690 2013-05-22 18:34:22 <eps> grau: interesting, are you hiring? ;)
1691 2013-05-22 18:34:39 <phantomcircuit> "tens of customers"
1692 2013-05-22 18:34:42 <phantomcircuit> im thinking no
1693 2013-05-22 18:34:48 <sipa> grau: it tok me a while to find you, but nice to meet you indeed!
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1698 2013-05-22 18:36:07 <grau> phantomcircuit: why should I care if you think.
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1700 2013-05-22 18:36:34 <sipa> all depend son how large the customers are, and what the type of service provided is
1701 2013-05-22 18:36:45 <eps> grau: i don't think phantomcircuit was trying to be critical
1702 2013-05-22 18:37:31 <etotheipi_> grau: my apologies I didn't stop by... I wanted to give you a high-five
1703 2013-05-22 18:37:39 <etotheipi_> grau:  I just quit my job, too, to work on Bitcoin
1704 2013-05-22 18:37:47 <nsh> etotheipi_, congratulations
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1706 2013-05-22 18:38:38 <grau> phantomcircuit: I thought you do not belive me. I really received huge interest. Very serious. I had some from IBM, Deutsche Bank and even Government agecies to mention a few.
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1708 2013-05-22 18:39:07 <sipa> i'm really amazed to see that this algorithm invented by an anonymous japanese dude is somehow able to fund a 1000 people travelling to some place, and have people work on the infrastructure on top full-time
1709 2013-05-22 18:39:22 <MC1984> whats needed is a way to help people come up with a mnemonic for those 12 words
1710 2013-05-22 18:39:27 <phantomcircuit> grau, i wasn't being critical, but if you would like to pick a fight where there wasn't one go right ahead
1711 2013-05-22 18:39:28 <eps> grau: are you going to get insurance?, what happens if a node gets hacked?
1712 2013-05-22 18:39:29 <etotheipi_> grau: I think his confusion (and possibly mine) was that 30 customers is "nothing" in a lot of businesses
1713 2013-05-22 18:39:29 <phantomcircuit> you will lose
1714 2013-05-22 18:39:30 <grau> etotheipi_: hi5
1715 2013-05-22 18:39:32 <MC1984> some sort of grammar engine or somthing
1716 2013-05-22 18:39:47 <etotheipi_> grau: in your business, you probably work with a few high-value customers, so you're in good shape
1717 2013-05-22 18:39:49 egis has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1718 2013-05-22 18:39:54 <MC1984> maybe that would reduce the randomness to much?
1719 2013-05-22 18:40:08 <etotheipi_> grau: but if you were selling candy bars, making $1 off of each,  then "tens of customers" isn't that much
1720 2013-05-22 18:40:10 <sipa> MC1984: you can have a grammer engine that guarantees entropy
1721 2013-05-22 18:40:21 <eps> i can see a market for enterprise bitcoin nodes
1722 2013-05-22 18:40:39 <eps> well in the future, assuming adoption continues
1723 2013-05-22 18:41:12 JDuke128 has joined
1724 2013-05-22 18:41:15 <grau> etotheipi_: yes I hope so. People come to me for support and accept costs for that. So yes , I do not need thousands to make a living
1725 2013-05-22 18:41:34 Aurigae has joined
1726 2013-05-22 18:41:44 <MC1984> sipa that would be good
1727 2013-05-22 18:41:50 daybyter has joined
1728 2013-05-22 18:41:54 <Scrat> etotheipi_: can I do this https://github.com/etotheipi/BitcoinArmory/issues/40 using the python tools?
1729 2013-05-22 18:42:14 <MC1984> otherwise comping up with a mnemonic for 12 totally random words might take a while, depending on your imagination......
1730 2013-05-22 18:42:19 <Scrat> (create a watch only .wallet by address)
1731 2013-05-22 18:42:37 lolcookie__ has joined
1732 2013-05-22 18:42:42 <etotheipi_> Scrat: I've done it before, but it took a bit of tinkering
1733 2013-05-22 18:43:04 <etotheipi_> Scrat: in the past, I tried to import *just* the addresses, and it didn't work, you need the public keys
1734 2013-05-22 18:43:11 <JDuke128> hello , we have found a bug on bitcoinj : http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinj/issues/detail?id=409&can=4&colspec=ID%20Type%20Status%20Priority%20Component%20Owner%20Summary
1735 2013-05-22 18:43:14 <MC1984> grau will your node be freely available too?
1736 2013-05-22 18:43:30 <phantomcircuit> grau, why would somebody pay you to host a bitcoin node? (serious question)
1737 2013-05-22 18:43:45 <grau> eps: I do not store wallet on my side
1738 2013-05-22 18:44:06 <etotheipi_> Scrat: I found out that some of my wallet ops assume a public key is available... so as long as you jam a full public key into the wallet, it should work
1739 2013-05-22 18:44:07 <eps> phantomcircuit: if securing a bitcoin node is not your core competency then you should pay someone else to do it
1740 2013-05-22 18:44:17 <grau> MC1984: it is open source
1741 2013-05-22 18:44:19 <eps> phantomcircuit: or use a third party like bitpay
1742 2013-05-22 18:44:28 <eps> but this is why i asked about insurance
1743 2013-05-22 18:44:38 <MC1984> what licence?
1744 2013-05-22 18:44:45 <eps> because enterprises like to plan for things going wrong
1745 2013-05-22 18:44:53 <grau> phantomcircuit: because it is easier to develop software with it and I take care of technology they do not care but want to use
1746 2013-05-22 18:45:06 <eps> they like to know what the worst possible case is and how they can recover from it
1747 2013-05-22 18:45:43 <Scrat> etotheipi_: aha I see. will the new version support something like that?
1748 2013-05-22 18:45:45 <grau> phantomcircuit: I do not host bitcoind but my own implementation with features they like
1749 2013-05-22 18:45:51 <phantomcircuit> oh
1750 2013-05-22 18:45:54 <phantomcircuit> your own implementation
1751 2013-05-22 18:46:00 <BlueMatt> grau: well done indeed, nice to have a client that actually offers support for the few who are willing to pay
1752 2013-05-22 18:46:05 DaQatz has joined
1753 2013-05-22 18:46:05 <phantomcircuit> would this be for sending and receiving?
1754 2013-05-22 18:46:12 <BlueMatt> (well, more and more...)
1755 2013-05-22 18:46:17 <eps> grau: oh this is slightly different from what i thought
1756 2013-05-22 18:46:17 <etotheipi_> Scrat: I have to think about how to implement it
1757 2013-05-22 18:47:00 <etotheipi_> Scrat: my worst fear is someone importing a watching public key, into a wallet where they actually own the other BTC
1758 2013-05-22 18:47:15 Wild_Bill has joined
1759 2013-05-22 18:47:19 sacrelege has joined
1760 2013-05-22 18:47:24 <phantomcircuit> grau, i dont trust anything but the reference client for accepting transactions as confirmed, sending it much easier to get right (the consequences for mistakes are largely non existent)
1761 2013-05-22 18:47:26 <etotheipi_> and then the total mess of figuring out how much money they actually have, and possibly getting scammed because someone sends money to that public key and it appears to be part of their balance when thye can't actually spend it
1762 2013-05-22 18:48:00 Diapolis has joined
1763 2013-05-22 18:48:00 <Scrat> etotheipi_: it's just that watch-only export requires trust. since the .wallet isn't easily readable, you have to trust that the offline computer won't dump your privkey in the wallet
1764 2013-05-22 18:48:01 <etotheipi_> Scrat: if I do it, I'll probably create a special wallet type just for importing public keys
1765 2013-05-22 18:48:18 dansmith_btc has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1766 2013-05-22 18:48:20 <grau> phantomcircuit: well, you are also not on my customer list :) no probs.
1767 2013-05-22 18:48:37 <etotheipi_> Scrat: but if you are required to import the private key before exporting a new watching wallet, there's no way for that to get out of sync
1768 2013-05-22 18:49:08 <phantomcircuit> grau, i estimated it would take 10k developer hours to be sure that all of the rules for accepting confirmations are right
1769 2013-05-22 18:49:09 <etotheipi_> Scrat: understood... but these things require some "faith"... would be nice to have some independent parties confirm that the there are actually no private key data in the file
1770 2013-05-22 18:49:20 <phantomcircuit> that might be an over estimate
1771 2013-05-22 18:49:27 <phantomcircuit> but im sure that you haven't invested that much time
1772 2013-05-22 18:49:38 <phantomcircuit> hope you have insurance
1773 2013-05-22 18:49:40 <phantomcircuit> lots
1774 2013-05-22 18:49:40 <grau> phantomcircuit: I worked on my implementation for about a year.
1775 2013-05-22 18:49:58 <etotheipi_> Scrat: I've done it myself multiple times, even posted the wallet format so others can do the same:  https://bitcoinarmory.com/armory-wallet-files/
1776 2013-05-22 18:50:02 savetheinternet has joined
1777 2013-05-22 18:50:15 <phantomcircuit> grau, 10k hours is ~5 years full time 9-5 every work day
1778 2013-05-22 18:50:39 tonikt has joined
1779 2013-05-22 18:50:52 * nsh estimates a reasonable length of chuckle
1780 2013-05-22 18:51:07 <grau> phantomcircuit: I do not think I have to accept your 10k estimate as an axiom. It was a lot of work.
1781 2013-05-22 18:51:07 <eps> i don't understand how you can not have wallet if you do sending and receiving
1782 2013-05-22 18:51:44 <MC1984> why complain
1783 2013-05-22 18:51:57 <MC1984> more independent implementations = good
1784 2013-05-22 18:52:00 DaQatz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1785 2013-05-22 18:52:02 <eps> at some point you need the private key to send, so there is a risk that the private key gets hacked/intercepted
1786 2013-05-22 18:52:12 <BlueMatt> MC1984: as long as you arent mining on those implementations, sure
1787 2013-05-22 18:52:23 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, i agree.. except when they start advertising themselves as being reliable
1788 2013-05-22 18:52:31 <MC1984> well its got to start somewhere
1789 2013-05-22 18:52:38 <grau> eps: transactions are signed at the client side
1790 2013-05-22 18:52:41 <eps> MC1984: i'm not complaining, i'm serious about the insurance though, it's a must have for enterprise clients
1791 2013-05-22 18:52:41 <MC1984> its not like the behaviour of bitcoind is wholly known either
1792 2013-05-22 18:52:53 <phantomcircuit> eps, so was i :)
1793 2013-05-22 18:52:55 <sipa> well, if i can make one potentially-controversial comment: i think trying to reimplement a full validation node is a risk in any case
1794 2013-05-22 18:52:56 <MC1984> well selling it for enterprise use is different
1795 2013-05-22 18:53:03 <eps> grau: so you just relay?
1796 2013-05-22 18:53:04 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, that's exactly my point actually
1797 2013-05-22 18:53:13 <MC1984> i suppose the detials of that is up to grau alone
1798 2013-05-22 18:53:33 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, since the exact behavior isn't entirely known replicating all of the behavior is problematic
1799 2013-05-22 18:53:37 <sipa> i have absolutely no problem (in fact, i'm glad there is competition at that point) with many wallet implementations
1800 2013-05-22 18:53:44 <grau> eps: full verifying node but wallet and p2p node is not at the same machine.
1801 2013-05-22 18:54:06 <sipa> regarding wallets, we haven't found the best-practices yet i think, and we need innovation
1802 2013-05-22 18:54:07 <MC1984> phantomcircuit well in the abscence of actual protocol documentation......
1803 2013-05-22 18:54:25 <sipa> regarding full nodes: i like the idea of having a stable ecosystem with many full node implementations
1804 2013-05-22 18:54:35 <sipa> but i don't look forward to the road to reach that point
1805 2013-05-22 18:55:23 <MC1984> maybe people should start implementing nodes, even if they get it a little bit "wrong", if enough people run these wrong noeds that they kinda become right, maybe everyone can then sit down and write some specs
1806 2013-05-22 18:55:30 <MC1984> i think theres an effort already
1807 2013-05-22 18:55:34 <sipa> N different validation rule implementations means N^2 potential incompatibilities that can result in a hard fork
1808 2013-05-22 18:55:54 <sipa> MC1984: that would only mean forcing miners to run every single of those implementations
1809 2013-05-22 18:56:02 <sipa> MC1984: to make sure the network will accept their blocks
1810 2013-05-22 18:56:27 <MC1984> whats the alternative, a miner monoculture?
1811 2013-05-22 18:56:28 <sipa> (which is perhaps inevitable, but i don't like the idea that that would be necessary)
1812 2013-05-22 18:56:34 <grau> bits of proof node is one of the three implementations that passes a list of common unit tests and the block chain tester scenarios.
1813 2013-05-22 18:56:36 <dugo> banks are subject to regulations where certain levels of support are required for the software they use, gl grau
1814 2013-05-22 18:56:53 <sipa> grau: i know, and i also know you spent a lot of work to verify that
1815 2013-05-22 18:56:57 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, and there's a difference between running the nodes and running the nodes advertised as an enterprise alternative to the reference client
1816 2013-05-22 18:57:10 <phantomcircuit> i have no issue with the former but a huge problem with the latter
1817 2013-05-22 18:57:11 <grau> dugo: exactly. Enterprises can not use a software without support.
1818 2013-05-22 18:57:12 <phantomcircuit> again
1819 2013-05-22 18:57:25 <phantomcircuit> only for accepting transactions as confirmed
1820 2013-05-22 18:57:35 <sipa> grau: but still, i'm far from convinced it does everything exactly the same way
1821 2013-05-22 18:57:36 <phantomcircuit> generate your spend transactions however you want
1822 2013-05-22 18:58:06 <sipa> grau: which is not a criticism to you
1823 2013-05-22 18:58:53 <sipa> grau: it's just a result of the properties of censensus algorithms, and the fact that the original client was written without very clear rules from the start
1824 2013-05-22 18:58:56 <grau> sipa: yes, there are likely differences. This however does not render it useless or means that it can be easily exploited and even less that it would be a problem for the network as a whole
1825 2013-05-22 18:59:29 <phantomcircuit> lol
1826 2013-05-22 18:59:37 <sipa> grau: depends on how it gets used, but indeed
1827 2013-05-22 18:59:41 <MC1984> i dont think you can shout at people for trying, or even for getting in wrong in the abscence of aformentioned specs
1828 2013-05-22 18:59:44 <phantomcircuit> grau, it means that you can be trivially segmented from the network
1829 2013-05-22 18:59:45 <eps> phantomcircuit: don't be mean ;)
1830 2013-05-22 18:59:58 <phantomcircuit> eps, BUT THERES SOMEONE WHO IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET
1831 2013-05-22 19:00:00 <sipa> phantomcircuit: well he can always run it behind a bitcoind :p
1832 2013-05-22 19:00:48 <grau> phantomcircuit: Satoshi v7 and v8 was trivially separated
1833 2013-05-22 19:00:52 <MC1984> grau are you serious when you say the likes of ibm and deutsce bank have shown interest
1834 2013-05-22 19:00:58 <MC1984> like, sincere interest?
1835 2013-05-22 19:01:13 <phantomcircuit> grau, yeah and there was at least one fairly large double spend as a result
1836 2013-05-22 19:01:28 <grau>  MC1984: Yes, they wanted trial access.
1837 2013-05-22 19:01:43 <phantomcircuit> sipa, that only covers issues where bitcoind rejects and he accepts, the other way around he's still segmented from the network and worse nobody even has to find his specific node
1838 2013-05-22 19:02:20 <grau> phantomcircuit: I am aware of the consequences. You should be aware that insisting on the "reference" does not protect you as you saw.
1839 2013-05-22 19:02:21 <sipa> phantomcircuit: indeed, but it's also easily detectable "hey, why don't our incoming transactions confirm!"
1840 2013-05-22 19:02:22 <MC1984> wht about getting a watertight spec for *mining* written and agreed upon then
1841 2013-05-22 19:02:47 <phantomcircuit> grau, i actually run 0.6.3 0.7.1 0.7.2 and 0.8.1 clients
1842 2013-05-22 19:02:47 <sipa> MC1984: i'm all for writing that, and having it clearly specified
1843 2013-05-22 19:02:58 <sipa> MC1984: but no matter what, it cannot be authorative
1844 2013-05-22 19:03:07 <sipa> the correct rules are those the network implements
1845 2013-05-22 19:03:10 <grau> phantomcircuit: do you want a bop 1.0 ?
1846 2013-05-22 19:03:11 <phantomcircuit> i only accept transactions as confirmed if they all agree on the current best block
1847 2013-05-22 19:03:13 <sipa> even if they are buggy
1848 2013-05-22 19:03:23 <phantomcircuit> im not going to run your client
1849 2013-05-22 19:03:29 <phantomcircuit> and neither will 99% of the network
1850 2013-05-22 19:03:34 <MC1984> sipa not authoritive, but consensus of relevant parties?
1851 2013-05-22 19:03:38 <phantomcircuit> i have all the bases covered
1852 2013-05-22 19:03:53 <phantomcircuit> also
1853 2013-05-22 19:03:57 <sipa> MC1984: a consensus about "these should be the rules" is nice, but is not the same as "these are the rules"
1854 2013-05-22 19:04:02 <phantomcircuit> hint i just told you how to half solve the problem
1855 2013-05-22 19:04:05 <MC1984> i mean someone has to write something and say "this is how it works" or there can be no spec
1856 2013-05-22 19:04:14 <grau> phantomcircuit: I will soon run 100% of the network that pays for support ... lol
1857 2013-05-22 19:04:31 <phantomcircuit> grau, that would be wrong
1858 2013-05-22 19:04:38 <phantomcircuit> i currently host a bitcoind for someone who pays me
1859 2013-05-22 19:04:42 <phantomcircuit> first to market
1860 2013-05-22 19:04:43 <phantomcircuit> woo
1861 2013-05-22 19:04:53 <grau> phantomcircuit: watch out for him better
1862 2013-05-22 19:05:00 <MC1984> sipa no one can say "these are the rules" any way, no way to enforce that
1863 2013-05-22 19:05:01 <dugo> rough consensus and running code .. the ARPANET way
1864 2013-05-22 19:05:02 <phantomcircuit> he pays me a whole $10/month
1865 2013-05-22 19:05:09 <grau> LOL
1866 2013-05-22 19:05:09 <phantomcircuit> that means im a professional
1867 2013-05-22 19:05:12 <phantomcircuit> amirite
1868 2013-05-22 19:05:15 <grau> LOLOLOLOL
1869 2013-05-22 19:05:16 qbasicer_ has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1870 2013-05-22 19:05:20 * jouke is bitcoin pro
1871 2013-05-22 19:05:22 <phantomcircuit> grau, ;)
1872 2013-05-22 19:05:25 <jouke> :>
1873 2013-05-22 19:05:53 * sipa is just an amateur, even having written most of the current core bitcoind code :p
1874 2013-05-22 19:05:58 <jouke> ^_^
1875 2013-05-22 19:06:06 <MC1984> jesus i run a bitcoind i dont even use for free, what does that make me a chump? :/
1876 2013-05-22 19:06:39 <dugo> MC1984 .. if it runs w/ gen=1 a degenerate gambler
1877 2013-05-22 19:06:55 <MC1984> i prefer my laptop unmelted
1878 2013-05-22 19:07:36 DaQatz has joined
1879 2013-05-22 19:07:48 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: sorry, bitcoinj wins that, it counts as TD's 20% time so its officially funded by google...well semi-official
1880 2013-05-22 19:07:49 <michagogo> [21:05:30] <sipa> i don't know of any wallet client that doesn't plan on implementing them
1881 2013-05-22 19:07:50 <michagogo> TIL that bitcoin[d|-qt] is planned to have deterministic wallets
1882 2013-05-22 19:08:29 <BlueMatt> and I think TD might be paid more than 10/.2 /mo...
1883 2013-05-22 19:08:48 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, wins what
1884 2013-05-22 19:09:09 <BlueMatt> paid to manage bitcoin codebases
1885 2013-05-22 19:09:13 <BlueMatt> first to
1886 2013-05-22 19:09:18 <BlueMatt> bitcoinj has been around forever
1887 2013-05-22 19:09:22 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, no paid to manage a bitcoin client
1888 2013-05-22 19:09:49 <phantomcircuit> ie make sure its available
1889 2013-05-22 19:09:50 <pigeons> mybitcoin was the first for that
1890 2013-05-22 19:10:02 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1891 2013-05-22 19:10:09 nkdv007 has joined
1892 2013-05-22 19:10:13 <phantomcircuit> pigeons, did they host bitcoin clients?
1893 2013-05-22 19:10:24 <phantomcircuit> i thought it was just the webwallet
1894 2013-05-22 19:10:34 <phantomcircuit> actually they had a very clean webwallet
1895 2013-05-22 19:10:36 <pigeons> yeah but in essence
1896 2013-05-22 19:10:40 <phantomcircuit> which so far nobody has actually replicated
1897 2013-05-22 19:10:50 <phantomcircuit> which is sort of hilarious
1898 2013-05-22 19:12:06 resinate has quit (Quit: resinate)
1899 2013-05-22 19:13:03 <ProfMac> ;;seen kofebuzs
1900 2013-05-22 19:13:04 <gribble> I have not seen kofebuzs.
1901 2013-05-22 19:14:30 <sipa> michagogo: read BIp32 :)
1902 2013-05-22 19:15:18 jgarzik has joined
1903 2013-05-22 19:15:37 Thepok has joined
1904 2013-05-22 19:15:44 <MC1984> who is actually counting on bitcoin dev for thielr livlihood now in total?
1905 2013-05-22 19:15:49 <MC1984> shoe a hands?
1906 2013-05-22 19:15:54 graingert has joined
1907 2013-05-22 19:16:00 <jouke> define dev
1908 2013-05-22 19:16:02 * jgarzik raises a shoe
1909 2013-05-22 19:16:03 <BlueMatt> jgarzik and gavinandresen
1910 2013-05-22 19:16:12 <MC1984> grau
1911 2013-05-22 19:16:19 graingert is now known as Guest30133
1912 2013-05-22 19:16:19 <nsh> i would trade both my shoes for an extra hand, if that's relevant to the study
1913 2013-05-22 19:16:22 <MC1984> etotheipi_ just said he quit his job
1914 2013-05-22 19:16:24 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
1915 2013-05-22 19:16:34 <jgarzik> some people are full time, but not really getting paid for it
1916 2013-05-22 19:16:46 <jgarzik> not sure if grau has income yet, in his new biz, etc.
1917 2013-05-22 19:16:59 <jouke> I am trying to get some full time people in the Netherlands.
1918 2013-05-22 19:17:04 <MC1984> depends what you define a stable income i guess
1919 2013-05-22 19:17:06 Bohren has joined
1920 2013-05-22 19:17:06 <etotheipi_> yup, I just quite my job ... with no revenue
1921 2013-05-22 19:17:23 <etotheipi_> but goddamn it feels good!  :)
1922 2013-05-22 19:17:34 <etotheipi_> (the no job thing, not the no revenue thing)
1923 2013-05-22 19:17:43 <jgarzik> etotheipi_, good for you, doing what you love :)
1924 2013-05-22 19:17:46 <sipa> etotheipi_: forget about the stupid fee thing in bitcoin, just have all "fees" in armory be an extra output to you :p
1925 2013-05-22 19:17:50 <grau> jgarzik: for the records: grau already has income.
1926 2013-05-22 19:18:07 <Cusipzzz> you guys should put up btc addresses on bitcoin.org - people who don't want to give to foundation might give individually
1927 2013-05-22 19:18:08 <jouke> etotheipi_: btw, I realy realy realy realy like to thank you for your contributions to the bitcoin wiki regarding transactions, script etc etc.
1928 2013-05-22 19:18:17 <etotheipi_> jouke: your welcome
1929 2013-05-22 19:18:35 <etotheipi_> *you're
1930 2013-05-22 19:18:48 <jouke> *really
1931 2013-05-22 19:18:52 <jouke> :P
1932 2013-05-22 19:18:56 <etotheipi_> heh
1933 2013-05-22 19:19:03 <jgarzik> grau, hooray :)
1934 2013-05-22 19:19:14 <sipa> etotheipi_: do you think https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2645 makes it easier to understand the steps for producing a a sighash?
1935 2013-05-22 19:19:33 <jgarzik> Cusipzzz, my btc addr is on all my forum posts
1936 2013-05-22 19:19:35 <etotheipi_> sipa: I could always hardcode Armory, when in offline mode, it will only sign transactions that have a 1 BTC output to my donation address :)
1937 2013-05-22 19:19:50 <jgarzik> Nobody ever donates, though.  ~26 BTC in past two years.
1938 2013-05-22 19:19:53 <Cusipzzz> jgarzik: i know, i've used it. and gmaxwell's. but i don't have others
1939 2013-05-22 19:19:56 <sipa> jgarzik: i have more!
1940 2013-05-22 19:20:33 <jgarzik> 1BrufViLKnSWtuWGkryPsKsxonV2NQ7Tcj for the record :)
1941 2013-05-22 19:20:37 <Cusipzzz> sipa: btc address ?
1942 2013-05-22 19:20:39 <yubrew> i think most of bitinstant's ppl are full time paid in bitcoin
1943 2013-05-22 19:20:41 <etotheipi_> I've actually gotten quite a bit of donations, but nohting to live off of
1944 2013-05-22 19:20:57 <etotheipi_> https://blockchain.info/address/1ArmoryXcfq7TnCSuZa9fQjRYwJ4bkRKfv
1945 2013-05-22 19:21:02 Neozonz has joined
1946 2013-05-22 19:21:15 <jouke> etotheipi_: you are from germany aren't you?
1947 2013-05-22 19:21:23 <etotheipi_> jouke: nope
1948 2013-05-22 19:21:26 <etotheipi_> US
1949 2013-05-22 19:21:29 <jouke> Oh
1950 2013-05-22 19:21:32 <jouke> ok :)
1951 2013-05-22 19:21:32 <sipa> adding all my donations, counted as much as they were worth at the time, is maybe a weeks' salary :)
1952 2013-05-22 19:22:43 <Cusipzzz> etotheipi_: sent, thx for the work
1953 2013-05-22 19:22:46 <etotheipi_> sweet!  you just
1954 2013-05-22 19:22:54 <etotheipi_> Cusipzzz: thanks so much!
1955 2013-05-22 19:23:26 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1956 2013-05-22 19:23:58 <etotheipi_> that wasn't soliciting for donations, but I'll take it!
1957 2013-05-22 19:24:39 <Cusipzzz> i know, i asked. i wish i had btc addresses for all the core devs
1958 2013-05-22 19:24:44 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1959 2013-05-22 19:24:45 MoALTz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1960 2013-05-22 19:25:30 <Cusipzzz> minus luke, and minus jgarzik who hopefully is getting paid a fortune ;)
1961 2013-05-22 19:25:34 <BlueMatt> Cusipzzz: if you google quite a bit, you can find them all
1962 2013-05-22 19:25:49 <Cusipzzz> i only found the active forum ones
1963 2013-05-22 19:25:51 <etotheipi_> I think Armory provides empirical evidence of the upper limit on pure donations from end users
1964 2013-05-22 19:26:02 <etotheipi_> I've literally made it one click to donate
1965 2013-05-22 19:26:05 <BlueMatt> irc logs...
1966 2013-05-22 19:26:15 <jgarzik> it is a step down from Red Hat, honestly
1967 2013-05-22 19:26:27 <jgarzik> took a pay cut and a risk, joining BitPay
1968 2013-05-22 19:26:44 <etotheipi_> jgarzik: but I'm sure you'll probably be much happier full time on Bitcoin
1969 2013-05-22 19:27:02 <grau> etotheipi_: that is why I began to ask donations for beer for the team, since offering work did not cut it well :)
1970 2013-05-22 19:27:09 <jgarzik> now have one full time job, instead of two :)  and it's working on something I enjoy
1971 2013-05-22 19:28:15 jtimon has joined
1972 2013-05-22 19:28:56 <grau> jgarzik: fully understand, this was my primary motivation too.
1973 2013-05-22 19:29:01 caedes has joined
1974 2013-05-22 19:29:01 caedes has quit (Changing host)
1975 2013-05-22 19:29:01 caedes has joined
1976 2013-05-22 19:29:23 jtimon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1977 2013-05-22 19:29:24 <etotheipi_> sipa: I meant to ask, what did you use for your HD wallet presentation?
1978 2013-05-22 19:29:44 <etotheipi_> oh crap!  You know what we should've done at the conference!?  Signed each others' GPG keys
1979 2013-05-22 19:29:46 <sipa> etotheipi_: prezi/com
1980 2013-05-22 19:29:51 <sipa> prezi.com
1981 2013-05-22 19:29:52 <nsh> lol
1982 2013-05-22 19:29:55 <sipa> etotheipi_: yeah, indeed
1983 2013-05-22 19:30:01 <jgarzik> Yes.  I meant to do some PGP'ing, also.
1984 2013-05-22 19:30:18 <etotheipi_> or at least hand-deliver fingerprints
1985 2013-05-22 19:30:22 <grau> sipa: prezi is also a hungarian company :)
1986 2013-05-22 19:30:28 ngc0202 has joined
1987 2013-05-22 19:30:28 <sipa> grau: cool, didn't know that
1988 2013-05-22 19:30:35 resinate has joined
1989 2013-05-22 19:30:44 <nsh> FAREWELL, ONE-DIMENSIONAL THINKING!
1990 2013-05-22 19:30:47 <etotheipi_> Adam Back apparently does that... he pulled out a sheet of paper with a bunch of tear strips...each one had his name, email, and 8-byte fingerprint
1991 2013-05-22 19:31:09 <jgarzik> That's an old school cypherpunk for ya :)
1992 2013-05-22 19:31:13 <etotheipi_> yeah
1993 2013-05-22 19:31:36 <jgarzik> Honestly I play the game just to make others happy.  I don't think the web of trust aspect of PGP is very useful.
1994 2013-05-22 19:31:56 <sipa> it's useful in relatively small communities
1995 2013-05-22 19:32:01 <etotheipi_> jgarzik: in general, no... but I think it's really useful right now
1996 2013-05-22 19:32:05 <etotheipi_> for the Bitcoin community
1997 2013-05-22 19:32:09 <sipa> which is sort of opposite to the _web_ part of web-of-trust
1998 2013-05-22 19:32:41 <etotheipi_> a community that has a small set of trusted people developing security-sensitive software for lots of others
1999 2013-05-22 19:33:05 <sipa> http://prezi.com/cj5auv0gs-ai/hd-wallets/
2000 2013-05-22 19:33:25 <nsh> jgarzik, do you believe there's a more useful web-of-trust technology, or are you dubious of the benefits?
2001 2013-05-22 19:33:30 <jgarzik> Outside of web of trust, part of my argument has always been that in-person key signing doesn't really matter, because the human fingerprint has most likely already been verified.
2002 2013-05-22 19:33:56 <jgarzik> i.e. the person that shows up here on IRC as sipa, commits to github as sips, behaves in a certain way.  That's a fingerprint
2003 2013-05-22 19:34:08 skeledrew has joined
2004 2013-05-22 19:34:10 * nsh frowns
2005 2013-05-22 19:34:11 <jgarzik> who is to say that "Pieter Wuille" at the bit coin conference is the same person?  :)
2006 2013-05-22 19:34:12 Bohren has joined
2007 2013-05-22 19:34:22 <etotheipi_> jgarzik: but not all users hang out on IRC and know who he is
2008 2013-05-22 19:34:25 <Cusipzzz> ok, i found most of em
2009 2013-05-22 19:34:29 <sipa> jgarzik: the fact that he did a presentation about stuff he talks about on IRC? :p
2010 2013-05-22 19:34:57 <jgarzik> Yah -- and that's part of the human fingerprint.  Key signing does not add value IMO
2011 2013-05-22 19:35:13 <etotheipi_> yeah, Adam Back showed me his ID when he gave me his fingerprint.... then told me I didn't need to show me his, he saw me on the security panel
2012 2013-05-22 19:35:15 <sipa> jgarzik: but i agree, PGP signatures are nomially about signing real-world identities, i.e., checking that the claimed name corresponds to governmnet-issued ID
2013 2013-05-22 19:35:15 andytoshi has joined
2014 2013-05-22 19:35:16 <etotheipi_> ...sucker!
2015 2013-05-22 19:35:30 <jgarzik> :)
2016 2013-05-22 19:35:30 <sipa> in many cases, that isn't really what you need
2017 2013-05-22 19:35:48 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2018 2013-05-22 19:36:08 <sipa> i'm sure jgarzik is more interested in signing the key of the-person-who-did-some-bitcoin-commits-under-a-particular-name than the-person-who-was-given-a-particular-name-by-his-parents
2019 2013-05-22 19:36:11 <etotheipi_> sipa: does prezi require viewing it via internet
2020 2013-05-22 19:36:23 toffoo has quit ()
2021 2013-05-22 19:36:29 <sipa> etotheipi_: you can create an offline presentation ... as a .exe file
2022 2013-05-22 19:36:34 <jgarzik> sipa, correct
2023 2013-05-22 19:36:49 allban has joined
2024 2013-05-22 19:37:13 <sipa> so i'd need a GPG identity that could explicitly denounce the claim that it corresponds to a real world identity (even though it would still be a correct match for that)
2025 2013-05-22 19:38:10 <gmaxwell> I think the pgp ecosystem mostly rejected having lots of attributes on signatures "I dunno who this is but I trust them to write good code and sign other keys sanely" because they were a 'privacy leak'.
2026 2013-05-22 19:38:22 <etotheipi_> well, all I can say, is that somehow it would be nice that if a user has Gavin's GPG key, and maybe one other, they can have some degree of confidence that they can identify all the keys of the major devleopers
2027 2013-05-22 19:38:27 stalled has joined
2028 2013-05-22 19:38:52 <etotheipi_> I keep getting emails about it (not a lot, but enough)
2029 2013-05-22 19:39:30 <BlueMatt> having a wot between the devs where they all sign each other's keys is quite nice
2030 2013-05-22 19:40:09 <gavinandresen> I'm willing to spend about eleven seconds making that happen, because I think it will have exactly zero impact on bitcoin's success
2031 2013-05-22 19:40:10 <sipa> BlueMatt: remind me to do a keysigning :)
2032 2013-05-22 19:40:13 * jgarzik has to transfer all this shit over to jgarzik@bitpay.com too :/
2033 2013-05-22 19:40:31 <jgarzik> i.e. published a message signed by jgarzik@exmulti, saying "jgarzik@bitpay is the same dude"
2034 2013-05-22 19:40:36 <BlueMatt> sipa: ack, will do
2035 2013-05-22 19:40:37 <jgarzik> no idea how to do that in an official way
2036 2013-05-22 19:40:40 <gavinandresen> (giving warm fuzzies to geeks has, in my experience, approximately zero impact on success)
2037 2013-05-22 19:40:44 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: when Im back in ch, Im coming for you
2038 2013-05-22 19:40:49 <jgarzik> hehe
2039 2013-05-22 19:40:53 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2040 2013-05-22 19:40:57 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: you can do that pretty easily in pgp, just add a second name thinggy
2041 2013-05-22 19:40:58 <sipa> gavinandresen: unfortunately, i think you're right
2042 2013-05-22 19:41:10 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: you're right, but at least it looks good
2043 2013-05-22 19:41:13 RazielXYZ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2044 2013-05-22 19:41:18 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, I don't want the same keys etc.  Should be wholly separate identities
2045 2013-05-22 19:41:29 <etotheipi_> I don't believe it's 0.0 impact, but I will tend to agree with you
2046 2013-05-22 19:41:41 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: subkeys?
2047 2013-05-22 19:41:41 <nsh> "<sipa> etotheipi_: you can create an offline presentation ... as a .exe file" GOODBYE ONE-DIMENSIONAL THINKING!
2048 2013-05-22 19:41:43 <gavinandresen> y'all knock yourselves out, then write me a bash script I can run to do whatever it is you want me to do.
2049 2013-05-22 19:41:54 <jgarzik> rm -rf /
2050 2013-05-22 19:41:56 <gavinandresen> … just make sure it takes me less than 11 seconds to download and run...
2051 2013-05-22 19:41:57 MoALTz has joined
2052 2013-05-22 19:41:58 <etotheipi_> nsh: yeah, that's why I like it
2053 2013-05-22 19:42:16 <sipa> gavinandresen: signing the key is the easy part, the hard part is that you should check identities before doing so
2054 2013-05-22 19:42:24 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, separate keyring, personal versus professional
2055 2013-05-22 19:42:39 <jgarzik> BitPay might hold onto the keyring etc.
2056 2013-05-22 19:42:42 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2057 2013-05-22 19:42:44 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: ok...then yea, make a new key and just sign it like you normally would?
2058 2013-05-22 19:43:02 <etotheipi_> on the other hand, signing each other's keys at a conference is a one-time thing and really isn't *that* hard
2059 2013-05-22 19:43:02 <nsh> etotheipi_, why not .scr
2060 2013-05-22 19:43:04 Jasmin68k has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2061 2013-05-22 19:43:15 <etotheipi_> nsh:  what is .scr?
2062 2013-05-22 19:43:28 <BlueMatt> its an exe that happens to have a different name (for screensavers)
2063 2013-05-22 19:43:37 * BlueMatt is sad he knows that :(
2064 2013-05-22 19:43:48 <nsh> windows screensaver extension. i'm just poking at you because having a document in an executable format is considered "awesome" for security :)
2065 2013-05-22 19:43:49 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2066 2013-05-22 19:44:08 <etotheipi_> nsh: oh, i wasn't considering the .exe aspect awesome
2067 2013-05-22 19:44:14 <etotheipi_> I just really like the presentation style
2068 2013-05-22 19:44:18 <nsh> right
2069 2013-05-22 19:44:20 <etotheipi_> especially for technical documents
2070 2013-05-22 19:44:28 * nsh nods
2071 2013-05-22 19:44:34 wyrag has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2072 2013-05-22 19:44:36 <etotheipi_> where you can represent the higher-level veiw of the whole thing, and drill in as deep as you want for any particular branch
2073 2013-05-22 19:44:44 <etotheipi_> it's pretty badass
2074 2013-05-22 19:44:52 <jgarzik> annoyingly, .exe, .dll and .scr are all the same file format, PE
2075 2013-05-22 19:44:59 <gavinandresen> I'm going to pull https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2652 and https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2649  then tag 0.8.2rc2
2076 2013-05-22 19:45:08 <owowo> ;;seen nanotube
2077 2013-05-22 19:45:09 <gribble> nanotube was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 6 days, 4 hours, 41 minutes, and 33 seconds ago: <nanotube> jouke: davout: warren: ne0futur: yes, 33D1 BAAA F97D 4623 13B3  827A BA57 9C84 D877 16D4 is my key
2078 2013-05-22 19:45:14 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: at least .dll means something different, even if it doesnt have to
2079 2013-05-22 19:45:31 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: ack
2080 2013-05-22 19:45:33 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2081 2013-05-22 19:45:42 <jgarzik> owowo, nanotube is around
2082 2013-05-22 19:45:45 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, ack
2083 2013-05-22 19:45:58 <sipa> gavinandresen: 2682 ?
2084 2013-05-22 19:46:22 <sipa> (needs *some* testing, which i can't do right now, but apart from that, it should be harmless)
2085 2013-05-22 19:46:26 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, We need a post-May15 checkpoint
2086 2013-05-22 19:46:29 DaQatz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2087 2013-05-22 19:46:37 <sipa> jgarzik: i'd wait until we have an actual fork
2088 2013-05-22 19:46:41 <jgarzik> ok
2089 2013-05-22 19:46:47 <etotheipi_> sipa: I'm looking at the commit you linked about 30 min ago... you just made realize (1) I haven't looked at any code whatsoever in the past 5 days, (2) I still don't have any familiarity with Satoshi client code
2090 2013-05-22 19:46:50 <jgarzik> 0.7 still alive, I take it...
2091 2013-05-22 19:47:10 <gavinandresen> sipa: what serious, showstopper bug does 2682 fix ?
2092 2013-05-22 19:47:33 <gmaxwell> the rescan regression.
2093 2013-05-22 19:47:39 <sipa> gavinandresen: creating a new wallet in 0.8.2rc1 requires a full rescan (which takes 10 minutes on some systems)
2094 2013-05-22 19:47:50 <gmaxwell> ^ that
2095 2013-05-22 19:47:56 <etotheipi_> you guys merging support for multiple wallets?
2096 2013-05-22 19:47:57 <gavinandresen> that only affects users who delete the old wallet.dat ?
2097 2013-05-22 19:48:01 <sipa> indeed
2098 2013-05-22 19:48:09 <gavinandresen> tiny minority of users....
2099 2013-05-22 19:48:10 <sipa> or copy an old wallet.dat file in
2100 2013-05-22 19:48:21 <gavinandresen> not a showstopper, in my opinion.  Annoying, but not critical
2101 2013-05-22 19:48:35 MoALTz_ has joined
2102 2013-05-22 19:48:40 * jgarzik leans towards "no" on #2682.  Rationale: too late into -rc
2103 2013-05-22 19:48:50 <jgarzik> code is too new
2104 2013-05-22 19:48:52 <sipa> it's a strict regression
2105 2013-05-22 19:49:09 <sipa> that was introduced in 0.8.2, by trying to fix a older bug partially
2106 2013-05-22 19:49:10 <gmaxwell> an alternative is to back out the bugfix that triggered the regression.
2107 2013-05-22 19:49:16 <sipa> indeed
2108 2013-05-22 19:49:33 MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2109 2013-05-22 19:49:35 <gmaxwell> The other thing about it is that it will rescan on every restart you make until you get a new block.
2110 2013-05-22 19:49:37 <gavinandresen> This was a regression from 0.8.1 ?
2111 2013-05-22 19:49:41 <sipa> yes
2112 2013-05-22 19:49:42 <gmaxwell> Yes.
2113 2013-05-22 19:49:56 sacrelege has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2114 2013-05-22 19:49:57 <jgarzik> <off topic> Just saw proofofexistence.com on reddit.  Who runs it?  jdillon/petertood?   </off topic>
2115 2013-05-22 19:50:02 guruvan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2116 2013-05-22 19:50:02 <gmaxwell> Been reported by at least two distinct people.
2117 2013-05-22 19:50:03 sensorii has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2118 2013-05-22 19:50:15 <sipa> every release since 0.3.23 iirc sometimes missed rescanning when necessary
2119 2013-05-22 19:50:18 <sipa> and 0.8.1 fixed that
2120 2013-05-22 19:50:28 <sipa> but now it scans in many cases where it missed it before
2121 2013-05-22 19:50:39 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: no, petertodd's thing is "opentimestamps"
2122 2013-05-22 19:50:51 sensorii has joined
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2126 2013-05-22 19:51:35 <nsh> proofofexistence does not appear to be particularly well-thought-through
2127 2013-05-22 19:51:45 andytoshi has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0)
2128 2013-05-22 19:52:12 <nsh> (hashed at server-side, inefficient use of blockchain, no apparent reflection of previous standards, etc.)
2129 2013-05-22 19:52:27 <gavinandresen> When I said "this is a regression from 0.8.1" I meant:  0.8.1 behaved correctly, and some fix in 0.8.2 broke things
2130 2013-05-22 19:52:32 <gmaxwell> (And petertodd's thing has reasonable scaling— the whole services makes single transactions, not one per thing being timestamped, and doesn't create any unspendable txouts)
2131 2013-05-22 19:52:33 <gavinandresen> Is that right, or is the bug in 0.8.1 ?
2132 2013-05-22 19:53:02 <sipa> gavinandresen: 0.3.23-0.8.1 behaved incorrectly in that it rescans too infrequently
2133 2013-05-22 19:53:06 DaQatz has joined
2134 2013-05-22 19:53:07 <sipa> 0.8.2 scans too frequently
2135 2013-05-22 19:53:26 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: 0.8.1 behaved correct relative to rescanning a new wallet. 0.8.2 fixed an old (since forever) bug where rescans were sometimes missed, but replaced it with a regression from 0.8.1 that over rescans.
2136 2013-05-22 19:53:33 <sipa> (and when it does, it rescans from genesis)
2137 2013-05-22 19:53:36 <gavinandresen> ok, got it.
2138 2013-05-22 19:53:40 <MC1984> jgarzik 404 on that
2139 2013-05-22 19:53:53 <gavinandresen> Looking at the patch, I'm leaning towards including 2682
2140 2013-05-22 19:54:15 <jgarzik> MC1984, try www.proofofexistence.com
2141 2013-05-22 19:54:37 <Cusipzzz> i swap wallets all the time, would like to see it included
2142 2013-05-22 19:54:58 <MC1984> that works
2143 2013-05-22 19:55:06 <MC1984> WWW wildcard how quaint
2144 2013-05-22 19:55:17 <sipa> well, i'd like someone to test it before merging it
2145 2013-05-22 19:55:23 <gmaxwell> I'm testing now.
2146 2013-05-22 19:55:33 <gavinandresen> I'm compiling now, will test a bit...
2147 2013-05-22 19:55:38 <sipa> great thanks
2148 2013-05-22 19:55:41 <sipa> afk
2149 2013-05-22 19:55:43 <MC1984> jesus are they running a docu timestamper using bitcoin for free there
2150 2013-05-22 19:59:26 wumpus has quit (No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2151 2013-05-22 19:59:43 wump has joined
2152 2013-05-22 19:59:43 <MC1984> that people could plug thier hare brained ideas into and leave the real blockchain the f alone
2153 2013-05-22 19:59:45 rumpler_ has joined
2154 2013-05-22 20:00:11 <gmaxwell> MC1984: there is... how do you think all that merged mined stuff works? :)
2155 2013-05-22 20:00:13 Plinker__ has joined
2156 2013-05-22 20:00:16 <MC1984> something that would bypass the faff of getting pools to merge mine your project
2157 2013-05-22 20:00:34 <MC1984> becasue they already potentially do
2158 2013-05-22 20:00:43 <gmaxwell> MC1984: basically merged mining without the miner knowing what their mining is worthless... _except_ for timestamps.
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2161 2013-05-22 20:01:11 <MC1984> oh
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2182 2013-05-22 20:02:25 <MC1984> it feels like getting angry at it is the same as asking people nicely not to torrent over tor
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2185 2013-05-22 20:03:01 <MC1984> the demand is there but it needs to be served by something better
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2190 2013-05-22 20:03:18 <jgarzik> would be nice to have easier merged mining hooks
2191 2013-05-22 20:03:25 <gmaxwell> MC1984: which is actually pretty effective. Not completely effective. But.  I do actually think recommending people not do things that are incrementally harmful is worth while. Surprise: most people don't want to watch the world burn.
2192 2013-05-22 20:03:28 <jgarzik> what's the favorite patch?  setauxwork ?
2193 2013-05-22 20:03:48 <gmaxwell> No, everything does external coinbase creation now, so there is no patch required.
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2198 2013-05-22 20:05:22 <nsh> i fundamentally disagree, gmaxwell. most people are just holding out for a more dramatic conflagration.
2199 2013-05-22 20:05:29 <MC1984> no but people dont think its gonna burn from littel old them. diffusion of responsibility fallacy i think?
2200 2013-05-22 20:05:32 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: in p2pool it's --merge-mine http://otherdaemonrpc:foo/ ... I think the simple stratum proxy support doesn't support it, since it seems that pools using that have stopped doing merged mining..
2201 2013-05-22 20:06:00 * jgarzik nods.  I want to fix that, make it easy.
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2205 2013-05-22 20:06:15 <MC1984> im a bit butthurt that im now storing proof of some rednecks handwritten contract with his cousin billy bob to help him build an extension to the shack he lives in
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2207 2013-05-22 20:07:05 <Scrat> MC1984: wut
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2214 2013-05-22 20:07:24 <Cusipzzz> MC1984: you are storing much worse than that
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2216 2013-05-22 20:07:33 <MC1984> http://www.proofofexistence.com/
2217 2013-05-22 20:07:34 <Scrat> hello Cusipzzz
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2220 2013-05-22 20:07:58 <Cusipzzz> Scrat: hello sir
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2226 2013-05-22 20:08:56 <jgarzik> Sigh.   "I wanted to get your feedback as a core-developer on this theory about the bitcoin price and its relationship to difficulty and mining:" … in private email, with the addendum "I shot some of the other core-developers an email as well"
2227 2013-05-22 20:09:07 <jgarzik> never heard of freakin' CC?  public email list?
2228 2013-05-22 20:09:55 <MC1984> whats price got to do with dev
2229 2013-05-22 20:10:00 yubrew has quit (Ping timeout: 274 seconds)
2230 2013-05-22 20:10:06 <nsh> preinvoice your reply time, jgarzik
2231 2013-05-22 20:10:11 <sipa> jgarzik: got that mail too
2232 2013-05-22 20:10:12 meLon has quit (Quit: leaving)
2233 2013-05-22 20:10:39 Neozonz has quit (Disc!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2234 2013-05-22 20:10:40 BurtyB has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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2236 2013-05-22 20:10:50 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I guess I'm not cool enough to get more email to ignore.
2237 2013-05-22 20:10:56 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: tempted to start marking email like that as spam, so gmail learns to ignore them for me
2238 2013-05-22 20:11:27 mps has joined
2239 2013-05-22 20:11:57 super3 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2240 2013-05-22 20:12:02 * gmaxwell checks spam folder
2241 2013-05-22 20:12:13 <gmaxwell> nope, but I see it's moving all the bitcointalk forum emails to spam. :-/
2242 2013-05-22 20:12:40 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, nah, just need an email version of http://yyz.us/bitcoin/irc-pm-support.html   :)
2243 2013-05-22 20:13:13 <jgarzik> Private email support requests happen all the time in the Linux world.  Tons of people still personally email Linus for Linux help.
2244 2013-05-22 20:13:25 saivann has joined
2245 2013-05-22 20:13:34 <jgarzik> "Can you help me install Linux?  I have this problem" to the creator of Linux
2246 2013-05-22 20:14:00 <MC1984> he doesnt react well?
2247 2013-05-22 20:14:03 meLon has joined
2248 2013-05-22 20:14:04 <jgarzik> Linus deletes en masse.  David Miller has more energy, and composed a one-button stock reply that basically says "fuck off"
2249 2013-05-22 20:14:05 <michagogo> jgarzik: LOL
2250 2013-05-22 20:14:07 <gmaxwell> Where else will he get all the skulls for his throne??
2251 2013-05-22 20:14:13 <michagogo> jgarzik: Gmal
2252 2013-05-22 20:14:24 <michagogo> jgarzik: Gmail's Canned Responses are good for that
2253 2013-05-22 20:14:32 <michagogo> Especially if you set up a filter
2254 2013-05-22 20:14:33 <jgarzik> yep
2255 2013-05-22 20:14:57 <michagogo> Even better, it sends it from yourname+canned-response@gmail.com
2256 2013-05-22 20:15:06 <michagogo> or something like that
2257 2013-05-22 20:15:07 <jgarzik> heh
2258 2013-05-22 20:15:14 <michagogo> one sec
2259 2013-05-22 20:15:15 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: oh, there it is... I jinxed it by whining I didn't get one.
2260 2013-05-22 20:15:22 DaQatz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2261 2013-05-22 20:15:30 <MC1984> surely linus is a bit like the wizard of oz in manner and eventually true nature
2262 2013-05-22 20:15:35 <michagogo> yourname+canned.response@gmail.com
2263 2013-05-22 20:15:45 <michagogo> I was close.
2264 2013-05-22 20:16:29 saulimus has joined
2265 2013-05-22 20:16:31 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: actually that email is fine. The person wrote a long article that says "the supply of bitcoins isn't increased by more people mining".
2266 2013-05-22 20:16:42 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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2273 2013-05-22 20:21:47 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, nod, it was meta annoyance
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2276 2013-05-22 20:22:28 <jgarzik> time for more rental shopping
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2285 2013-05-22 20:24:29 <BlueMatt> grau: just a heads-up, just up, uploaded a new version of BitcoindComparisonTool to jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/files with one or two more tests and actually makes the different-block-with-same-hash test worthwhile
2286 2013-05-22 20:24:52 <BlueMatt> anyone want to update a pull and be a Guinea pig to see if the script is borked?
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2292 2013-05-22 20:27:32 <grau> BlueMatt: thanks for the heads up. Your tests are a great value.
2293 2013-05-22 20:27:47 nomailing has joined
2294 2013-05-22 20:27:47 <BlueMatt> consider adding to them? :p
2295 2013-05-22 20:27:55 <BlueMatt> I just wish I had more time to add fun test-cases there
2296 2013-05-22 20:28:13 whiterabbit has joined
2297 2013-05-22 20:28:17 <grau> I convert them to JSON, that is where I can add
2298 2013-05-22 20:28:34 DaQatz has joined
2299 2013-05-22 20:29:09 <BlueMatt> I used to want to make them all data-driven, but we've seen the randomness trigger error conditions in some non-1 percent of tests so Ill probably just leave it
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2308 2013-05-22 20:31:03 <grau> We need tests that are pure data driven. The dependency of a test on a certain implementation (bitcoinj in your case) destroys some of its value.
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2310 2013-05-22 20:31:44 <BlueMatt> meh, its kinda nice that it tests network behavior entirely too
2311 2013-05-22 20:31:47 <BlueMatt> but I certainly see your point
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2313 2013-05-22 20:33:11 <gmaxwell> grau: Reimplementing the test destroys some of its value. Not actually testing the test over the identical network channel destroys some of its value.  I think you should treat bluematt's thing as a third party black box like you do the java compiler. The fact that it has bitcoinj in it isn't really important. (in fact, its an asset, because it's always testing some interoperability)
2314 2013-05-22 20:33:26 <gmaxwell> (and, at the same time, you should also have straight data ones)
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2317 2013-05-22 20:33:40 <grau> gmaxwell: I did not reimplement his test
2318 2013-05-22 20:34:01 <grau> gmaxwell: I solely captured the output it sends to bitcoind and replay it
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2323 2013-05-22 20:35:54 <gmaxwell> grau: I know— thats still a degree of reimplementation. For example, if you respond in a different order, or send some additional fields that are incorrect, it would fail to detect it.
2324 2013-05-22 20:35:56 whiterabbit has joined
2325 2013-05-22 20:36:39 <BlueMatt> grau: its also important with the latest update since some tests depend on how you process inv messages, not just blocks themselves
2326 2013-05-22 20:36:45 <BlueMatt> (ie network-facing behavior)
2327 2013-05-22 20:36:57 <BlueMatt> (ofc you can implement the tests such that it should still test that, but still...)
2328 2013-05-22 20:37:33 <grau> gmaxwell: we should rather have tests for each aspect we think is important in isolation. not creating another "reference" test implementation that your thinking leads to
2329 2013-05-22 20:38:10 <sipa> grau: i think we need both
2330 2013-05-22 20:38:30 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2333 2013-05-22 20:38:53 <ecoloco> Hello. Is it enough to save wallet.dat file to save all transactions (bitcoin balance) and all addresses?
2334 2013-05-22 20:38:56 <grau> sipa: Yes, we need different levels of tests. But beware not to create another monster of "reference testing code"
2335 2013-05-22 20:39:10 <gmaxwell> grau:  I'm not saying anything about a "reference" implementation.  Tests for the parts in isolation are good. But they are not sufficient. If the whole thing does not also interoperate then it doesn't work.  I don't propose that bitcoinj be a "reference implementation"  ... Ideally, I think it would be good to have many black box systems testers.
2336 2013-05-22 20:39:20 <gmaxwell> And then test every implementation with all of them.
2337 2013-05-22 20:39:26 <rumpler> ecoloco: Yes, but you need to resave/backup every 100 transactions.
2338 2013-05-22 20:39:31 <sipa> grau: for example, iirc you interpreted the test with a >1M block that reserializes to <1M as an over-eager test in bitcoinj
2339 2013-05-22 20:39:36 TD has joined
2340 2013-05-22 20:39:40 <ecoloco> rumpler: why?
2341 2013-05-22 20:39:42 <grau> gmaxwell: I do not think we disagree
2342 2013-05-22 20:39:44 <BlueMatt> grau: my test-cases always get that way :( one "test-case" function that goes on for pages and pages and runs 1000 tests? sure why the fuck not...
2343 2013-05-22 20:40:03 <sipa> grau: anyway, there's just a difference between unit tests and network consistency tests
2344 2013-05-22 20:40:27 sacrelege has joined
2345 2013-05-22 20:40:29 <grau> sipa: yes.
2346 2013-05-22 20:41:10 <sipa> no need to reiterate, we've had this discussion before iirc :)
2347 2013-05-22 20:43:24 <grau> gmaxwell: There are different levels of tests. I use BlueMatt's test as a big unit test for the block verification and reorg. I do not use it to test the network layer. Also because a test for that is yet to be written.
2348 2013-05-22 20:43:39 <grau> His test tests the network layer as a by-product.
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2353 2013-05-22 20:44:14 <gmaxwell> It's a system test. It tests the whole network exposed p2p code. (well, upto the limitations of it not yet being a complete test).
2354 2013-05-22 20:45:04 <gmaxwell> And in particular, if it's not being used bitcoinj<>bitcoinj it's a system interoperability test.
2355 2013-05-22 20:45:27 <warren> Where is BlueMatt's test available?
2356 2013-05-22 20:45:28 <grau> It is not a system test. It uses some of the networking that I do not test with it. Thats it.
2357 2013-05-22 20:45:30 shesek has joined
2358 2013-05-22 20:46:08 <TD> warren: bitcoinj source code
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2361 2013-05-22 20:46:23 <BlueMatt> warren: easiest place to get it in packaged form is http://jenkins.bluematt.me/pull-tester/files/ / github.com/TheBlueMatt/test-scripts
2362 2013-05-22 20:46:41 <BlueMatt> but the source is checked into bitcoinj (current version is awaiting merge from https://code.google.com/r/bluemattme-bitcoinj/source/list?name=blocktester )
2363 2013-05-22 20:47:02 <gmaxwell> From the perspective of the bitcoin distributed protocol his tool tests the device under test for all (subject to being currently incomplete) the behavior needed to have a network that converges.
2364 2013-05-22 20:47:18 <warren> btw, who is bitcoinj upstream?
2365 2013-05-22 20:47:28 <BlueMatt> ehh, wait wtf where did the jar go
2366 2013-05-22 20:47:29 nkdv007 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2367 2013-05-22 20:47:32 <BlueMatt> warren: TD
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2369 2013-05-22 20:49:49 <BlueMatt> warren: ok, now the jar is there if you're lazy and want it all packaged up
2370 2013-05-22 20:50:39 <grau> gmaxwell: that tester is very far for covering the expected behavior on the network. But is the best known test to what is expected in validation and reorg. Therefore I use it for the second, and not for the first.
2371 2013-05-22 20:51:15 santoscork has quit (Quit: Quiet while I make like a cat)
2372 2013-05-22 20:51:15 <warren> BlueMatt: I'll likely have to figure it out from source in order to test litecoin-0.6.x, the litecoin-0.8.x rebase, and later bitcoinj with litecoin protocol.
2373 2013-05-22 20:51:35 <BlueMatt> well, that + the data-driven tests have 100% coverage of the basic script-execution engine in bitcoind/bitcoinj
2374 2013-05-22 20:51:42 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2375 2013-05-22 20:51:50 <BlueMatt> (but I /still/ havent had time to add reasonable test-cases for SIGHASH_*
2376 2013-05-22 20:52:03 <BlueMatt> warren: yea...have fun with that
2377 2013-05-22 20:52:31 <grau> I agree that we need to cover expected network behavior, but that should than cover things like mempool behavior and not trivial stuff like do I parse the blocks correctly. since that is cought much deeper.
2378 2013-05-22 20:52:35 <BlueMatt> if anyone is interested in contributing to testing, please add data-driven test-cases for SIGHASH_*...
2379 2013-05-22 20:52:49 <BlueMatt> (and, no, I dont have a tool to generate those, I end up writing a new one every time...)
2380 2013-05-22 20:53:00 <gmaxwell> grau: Its certantly the goal of it. When that tool is complete it should be infeasable for a normal understanding/programming bugs to result in a network convergence failure if it passes the test. Certantly it has a fair way to go before you could start saying it had that property.
2381 2013-05-22 20:53:18 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #331: FAILURE in 3 min 24 sec: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/331/
2382 2013-05-22 20:53:24 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: fair? it would probably take a few months of full-time work to get close...
2383 2013-05-22 20:53:35 <BlueMatt> heh, damn untested test code...
2384 2013-05-22 20:53:43 <sipa> grau: mempool behaviour is not essential to network convergence... i fully agree it should be tested, but it's not necessarily part of a network interaction test, as mempool behaviour is governed by client-spefic policies
2385 2013-05-22 20:53:46 <BlueMatt> sorry gavinandresen
2386 2013-05-22 20:53:48 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: a few months full time work isn't much at all.
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2392 2013-05-22 20:56:59 <grau> sipa: It is rather important to the user of a node that mempool is a good indication of what the next blocks will be.
2393 2013-05-22 20:57:24 <BlueMatt> mempool isnt and it cant be...
2394 2013-05-22 20:57:31 <grau> maybe irrelevant for the network, but you do not want to be suprised with every new block
2395 2013-05-22 20:57:36 <sipa> grau: that's quite impossible
2396 2013-05-22 20:57:47 <sipa> miners can (and do) include transactions that aren't broadcast
2397 2013-05-22 20:58:26 <gmaxwell> Indeed, it's good to test the mempool and any implementation should. But at the same time if a node does an entirely wrong thing there is will not enable things like an enormous reorg that permits the theft of tens of millions of dollars in value.
2398 2013-05-22 20:58:27 <grau> I mean that you to see transactions in mempool if received.
2399 2013-05-22 20:58:32 Gnaf has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2400 2013-05-22 20:58:33 <grau> e.g.
2401 2013-05-22 20:59:07 <sipa> what you can test is that the mempool accepts transactions that are valid and broadcast
2402 2013-05-22 20:59:20 <gmaxwell> It's not terribly important that nodes behave very consistently with the mempool, only correctly, and thats only somewhat important. Vs the blocks where the behavior needs to be consistent.
2403 2013-05-22 20:59:31 <sipa> but that's still subject to local policies, so it is hard to test for a network interaction test
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2406 2013-05-22 21:01:13 <grau> Mempool is a harder one. What about simple testing that one gets the headers requested or mempool filtered correctly with Bloom from network view ?
2407 2013-05-22 21:01:23 Gnaf has joined
2408 2013-05-22 21:02:07 <sipa> that sounds good
2409 2013-05-22 21:02:42 <sipa> you can request a full mempool and a filtered mempool, and check that they match modulo the filtering criterion
2410 2013-05-22 21:03:40 <gmaxwell> you'd have to do something fun like adapt the filtering criteria to be one that actually should make a difference.
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2414 2013-05-22 21:04:04 <grau> sipa: I meant that there is lots to test for on the network layer. Correct parsing of blocks that I currently miss out from blocktester is a cake and ensured elsewhere
2415 2013-05-22 21:04:26 <sipa> grau: right, but it's the only part of network interaction that is essential for convergence
2416 2013-05-22 21:04:50 <grau> cmon , If I do not parse correctly I do not even get the hash right
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2419 2013-05-22 21:05:22 <sipa> grau: but if you mistake a block validity rule for a network rule, you may miss things
2420 2013-05-22 21:05:40 <sipa> not saying that you are, but the block size reserialization came very close to that
2421 2013-05-22 21:06:39 <grau> that is a valid observation. I still think that I get 98% of the value out of the blocktester
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2423 2013-05-22 21:06:47 <sipa> i agree
2424 2013-05-22 21:07:03 <mahler> how is the blockchain stored on the client? as a single file or as multiple files?
2425 2013-05-22 21:07:15 <sipa> see doc/files.txt
2426 2013-05-22 21:07:20 <gmaxwell> I would guess so. If I knew of things you were missing, I'd nag you to add them. Though part of the concern is that we're trying to test for behavior that none of us are thinking of. :)
2427 2013-05-22 21:07:21 <mahler> thnx
2428 2013-05-22 21:08:43 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2429 2013-05-22 21:09:24 <mahler> Are these files inherit to the official client implementation or can it be different with other software as long as they same protocol is used?
2430 2013-05-22 21:09:27 <grau> gmaxwell: I would add them if you nagged me. I am however reluctant to accept another reference code even if it is a test code. I would rather like to have reference data vectors and described expected behavior.
2431 2013-05-22 21:10:22 DaQatz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2432 2013-05-22 21:12:00 <gmaxwell> grau: we're probably going to keep nagging forever. :)  I really think you should periodically test against it.  If you create a similar tool— some black box that will connect to a node and test it over the network— then in bitcoin-qt/bitcoind development we will test against it too.  (Keep in mind, "bitcoinj" is absolutely not a "reference implementation" no one claims it is. Its just one that includes a tool that can test other ones....
2433 2013-05-22 21:12:36 <sipa> grau: i think what we're arguing for is that tests that let two different implementations interact with eachother are far more valuable from a network interaction point of view
2434 2013-05-22 21:13:08 <grau> sipa, gmaxwell: Then let us define a test protocol.
2435 2013-05-22 21:13:15 <sipa> ...
2436 2013-05-22 21:13:20 <sipa> it exists
2437 2013-05-22 21:13:25 <sipa> it's called the P2P protocol
2438 2013-05-22 21:13:40 <grau> sipa: it is not verbose enough
2439 2013-05-22 21:13:44 <gavinandresen> P2P protocol plus artificially low difficulty == test protocol
2440 2013-05-22 21:13:45 <sipa> (sure, it won't test full client behaviour, but that's not relevant from a network interaction point of view either)
2441 2013-05-22 21:13:45 <grau> for test
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2443 2013-05-22 21:14:06 <gavinandresen> what do you mean 'not verbose enough' ?
2444 2013-05-22 21:14:08 <TD> BlueMatt: got a task for you
2445 2013-05-22 21:14:16 <BlueMatt> huh?
2446 2013-05-22 21:14:31 <grau> e.g. you can not directly detect if e.g. a peer accepted a tx or a block, just indirectly
2447 2013-05-22 21:14:41 <TD> BlueMatt: could you start running the verify-bitcoin.sh script hourly on your workstation? i've been running it daily for a while and it's flaky (or we're compromised), sometimes it fails and i haven't had time to properly instrument the script and debug
2448 2013-05-22 21:14:55 <TD> BlueMatt: it'd be great if you could add some debug logging so the mirror that was used is printed when hash checks fail
2449 2013-05-22 21:15:16 <BlueMatt> TD: ack, though Ill probably rewrite it to use gitian sigs instead since those are more usefule (and should I put that somewhere?)
2450 2013-05-22 21:15:58 <TD> i'd prefer not to rewrite for now, let's just figure out the existing script and why it fails. the script *should* work and it's not high maintenance as long as gavin is signing the files.
2451 2013-05-22 21:16:12 <TD> i strongly suspect a mirror is serving up garbage/html instead of the download
2452 2013-05-22 21:16:16 <TD> but can
2453 2013-05-22 21:16:19 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2454 2013-05-22 21:16:20 <TD> but can't prove it yet :-)
2455 2013-05-22 21:16:47 <gavinandresen> grau : well, bitcoinj and the reference implementation developers are pretty happy with the indirect test protocol we've got now, so we're not motivated to spend time on something else
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2458 2013-05-22 21:17:20 <BlueMatt> yea, Ill do that...it shouldnt be hard to make it test >1 sig though, and it should be strictly more checking so anything that already failed will probably continue to do so
2459 2013-05-22 21:17:29 <BlueMatt> anyway, yea, Ill look into it
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2462 2013-05-22 21:17:42 <sipa> grau: from my point of view as someone not using your application, i don't care about anything, except whether it converges to the same chain as other implementations
2463 2013-05-22 21:17:50 <TD> thanks
2464 2013-05-22 21:18:03 <grau> gavinandresen, sipa: understood.
2465 2013-05-22 21:18:05 <sipa> grau: even the concept of "accepting a transaction" is irrelevant for that
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2467 2013-05-22 21:19:09 <sipa> grau: and since that convergence is only achieved through the P2P protocol, there's no real need for testing it via anything else than that P2P protocol (in fact, if there is another protocol, there may be a local bug in just that test protocol)
2468 2013-05-22 21:19:35 <sipa> apart from that, but that is lower priority, a more deep testing protocol for full client behaviour would be nice
2469 2013-05-22 21:20:26 <grau> sipa: Think of the mempool message added for debug purposes. A similar extension to get insight into what the client did with a block would be helpful for testing.
2470 2013-05-22 21:20:57 <grau> but I understand it is low priority
2471 2013-05-22 21:21:09 <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: hows testing of 2682 going?  I want to pull/tag....
2472 2013-05-22 21:21:30 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: very close to done. (I figured that I was the long pole)
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2477 2013-05-22 21:24:58 <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: I pulled it.
2478 2013-05-22 21:25:06 <sipa> ACK on rc2
2479 2013-05-22 21:25:15 diki has joined
2480 2013-05-22 21:25:22 * gmaxwell ^
2481 2013-05-22 21:25:37 <gavinandresen> good deal, I'll try to make sure I tag exactly the right thing this time...
2482 2013-05-22 21:26:19 <sipa> (i'd still like 2642 as a safety mechanism, but it's not high priority and needs testing for edge cases)
2483 2013-05-22 21:27:16 nonick has joined
2484 2013-05-22 21:27:30 <gmaxwell> sipa: oh wow, is that the cause of those pindexFirst asserts? (I'd missed that)
2485 2013-05-22 21:27:37 darkee_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2487 2013-05-22 21:28:17 <sipa> gmaxwell: yes
2488 2013-05-22 21:28:25 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
2489 2013-05-22 21:28:27 <sipa> gmaxwell: well, not sure if it's the only cause
2490 2013-05-22 21:28:45 FredEE has joined
2491 2013-05-22 21:29:16 <gavinandresen>  * [new tag]         v0.8.2rc2 -> v0.8.2rc2
2492 2013-05-22 21:30:51 <nsh> ah.. "The long pole is the part of the project that is on the critical path due to its length. For example, if you have a project that consists of three independent sub-projects, then the sub-project with the longest completion date is the long pole." -http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2008/08/05/8832510.aspx
2493 2013-05-22 21:30:56 Diapolis has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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2495 2013-05-22 21:31:44 <gmaxwell> nsh: if you have ever erected a tent (or at least one that isn't one of the new fangled ones) you will recognize the origin of the term.
2496 2013-05-22 21:32:06 * nsh nods
2497 2013-05-22 21:32:44 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: those newfangled ones have been around for...10+ years?
2498 2013-05-22 21:32:55 tg has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2499 2013-05-22 21:33:13 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #332: STILL FAILING in 3 min 18 sec: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/332/
2500 2013-05-22 21:33:24 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
2501 2013-05-22 21:33:31 <BlueMatt> fuck you
2502 2013-05-22 21:33:43 <BlueMatt> I havent updated the test-script git repo yet...
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2511 2013-05-22 21:37:13 <muhoo> man vs bot. who will win?
2512 2013-05-22 21:37:55 <gavinandresen> grrr… who got rid of doc/README ?  it breaks the gitian build
2513 2013-05-22 21:37:59 neo2 has joined
2514 2013-05-22 21:38:18 <sipa> it was renamed to README.md in some pullreq; no idea if it was pulled
2515 2013-05-22 21:38:24 <gavinandresen> apparently it was
2516 2013-05-22 21:38:57 <nsh> gitstitutionalised silliness
2517 2013-05-22 21:39:56 <gavinandresen> it is still mentioned in the bitcoin-qt.pro file, too
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2519 2013-05-22 21:41:21 <gavinandresen> If you just pulled, please   git tag -d v0.8.2rc2
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2525 2013-05-22 21:46:41 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: when's the last time a tag actually worked the first time :p
2526 2013-05-22 21:47:12 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: 2012...
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2532 2013-05-22 21:50:36 <gavinandresen> v0.8.2rc2 re-tagged, I'm gitian-building now
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2538 2013-05-22 21:52:28 <muhoo> *sigh*, so is proofofexistence the latest way to parasitically abuse the blockchain, the latest SD?
2539 2013-05-22 21:52:32 super3_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2540 2013-05-22 21:52:49 <MC1984> no not at all
2541 2013-05-22 21:52:56 <muhoo> seems like someone should just create a distributed blockchain service, unrelated to bitcoin, and let people just use that for what it is
2542 2013-05-22 21:52:59 <MC1984> its the hot new way to bloat the utxo xD
2543 2013-05-22 21:53:02 jtimon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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2547 2013-05-22 21:53:46 <muhoo> maybe nocoin , or something like that. bitcoin without the coins.
2548 2013-05-22 21:54:16 super3_ has joined
2549 2013-05-22 21:54:17 <sipa> how about calling it git?
2550 2013-05-22 21:54:32 <muhoo> sipa: point
2551 2013-05-22 21:55:41 <muhoo> but git is using SHA1, and its timestamping can be forged
2552 2013-05-22 21:56:05 <muhoo> doesn't really have a consensus algorithm either
2553 2013-05-22 21:56:07 <k00shi> Is a git repository really that similar to the blockchain?
2554 2013-05-22 21:56:14 <MC1984> git is centralised
2555 2013-05-22 21:56:19 <muhoo> git is NOT centralized
2556 2013-05-22 21:56:26 <muhoo> linus would be indignant
2557 2013-05-22 21:56:27 <helo> is this superior to chronobit in any way?
2558 2013-05-22 21:56:28 <MC1984> compared to a blockchain
2559 2013-05-22 21:56:47 <muhoo> gitHUB is centralized. git is not.
2560 2013-05-22 21:56:55 <sipa> you just need to commit to git commit id's in a blockchain with hard PoW, like bitcoin
2561 2013-05-22 21:57:02 tyn has joined
2562 2013-05-22 21:57:30 <muhoo> right, maybe a fork of git to add a few bitcoin-like features
2563 2013-05-22 21:57:39 <muhoo> or a fork of bitcoin to remove the coins :-)
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2566 2013-05-22 21:58:15 <muhoo> the advantage of using git is that the things certified could maybe be more flexible, any binary thing really, and you could store the actual thing not just the hash
2567 2013-05-22 21:58:19 <MC1984> bitmessage is that from what i can see
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2571 2013-05-22 22:00:32 <muhoo> maybe. i'm just hoping these services take off and lure people away from abusing the bitcoin blockchain
2572 2013-05-22 22:02:24 <MC1984> people get a good idea then do a first implementaion in the easiest way possible and forget the iteration part
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2574 2013-05-22 22:03:06 <MC1984> for bitcoin the easiest way possible happens to run parallel to the way that burdens the systemt he most
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2577 2013-05-22 22:03:50 <MC1984> lik i said earlier perhaps it needs to be easier for people to take advantage of merge mined hashpower
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2594 2013-05-22 22:17:35 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #333: ABORTED in 43 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/333/
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2606 2013-05-22 22:32:22 <helo> got a segfault on the running bitcoind when trying to start up another bitcoind (forgetting i already had one running)
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2608 2013-05-22 22:34:03 <nsh> sounds like a feature
2609 2013-05-22 22:34:13 <gmaxwell> helo: what versions and OS?
2610 2013-05-22 22:34:25 <nsh> (does bitcoind not use a lockfile?)
2611 2013-05-22 22:34:29 <sipa> it does
2612 2013-05-22 22:34:31 <helo> gmaxwell: ack, may not apply... using db 5.1
2613 2013-05-22 22:34:55 <helo> git head, on ubuntu 13.04
2614 2013-05-22 22:34:59 freefox has quit (Quit: freefox)
2615 2013-05-22 22:35:49 <helo> nsh: the newly started bitcoind says it can't get a lock, and exits cleanly (and then the already-running bitcoind segfaulted)
2616 2013-05-22 22:35:50 <BlueMatt> for 0.9, if we dont switch to a non-bdb wallet, can we upgrade to db5.1?
2617 2013-05-22 22:35:59 cypher has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2618 2013-05-22 22:35:59 MobiusL has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2619 2013-05-22 22:36:00 nonick has quit (Write error: Broken pipe)
2620 2013-05-22 22:36:00 gfinn has quit (Write error: Broken pipe)
2621 2013-05-22 22:36:06 <BlueMatt> or are we switching to a non-bdb wallet soon enough?
2622 2013-05-22 22:36:45 darkee has joined
2623 2013-05-22 22:36:52 <helo> x86_64 btw
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2629 2013-05-22 22:37:58 <phantomcircuit> helo, bitcoin version?
2630 2013-05-22 22:38:15 <sipa> 00:11:35 < helo> git head, on ubuntu 13.04
2631 2013-05-22 22:38:26 raad287 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2632 2013-05-22 22:38:32 <gmaxwell> helo: we had a bar-theory that some problem with the file lock was contributing to database corruption... but on review of the code I can't see how. We check the file lock very early and if it fails init should stop right away.
2633 2013-05-22 22:38:53 <gmaxwell> hopefully I can reproduce what you're seeing.
2634 2013-05-22 22:39:06 <sipa> helo: can you post some debug.log at the end before crashing?
2635 2013-05-22 22:39:07 <helo> i can certainly reproduce it
2636 2013-05-22 22:39:10 MobiusL has joined
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2638 2013-05-22 22:39:15 <gmaxwell> oh. I just got a
2639 2013-05-22 22:39:16 <gmaxwell> bitcoind: /usr/include/boost/thread/pthread/pthread_mutex_scoped_lock.hpp:26: boost::pthread::pthread_mutex_scoped_lock::pthread_mutex_scoped_lock(pthread_mutex_t*): Assertion `!pthread_mutex_lock(m)' failed.
2640 2013-05-22 22:39:20 <gmaxwell> on stop
2641 2013-05-22 22:39:27 <sipa> grrr
2642 2013-05-22 22:39:42 <nsh> (there was an old bug with segfaulting when unable to get the lock, closed by gavin in 2011: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/179 )
2643 2013-05-22 22:39:43 <sipa> i thought we fixed that...
2644 2013-05-22 22:39:44 <gmaxwell> had been running git head with a getblocktemplate in a loop for the last hour or so.
2645 2013-05-22 22:39:51 viperhr has quit (Read error: No route to host)
2646 2013-05-22 22:39:59 <helo> sipa: _nothing_ unusual leading up to crash, just normal stuff and $
2647 2013-05-22 22:40:31 viperhr has joined
2648 2013-05-22 22:40:57 <nsh> "reintroduced by boost"(tm)
2649 2013-05-22 22:41:22 <helo> hang on, let me verify that it's the originally running bitcoind and not the new one
2650 2013-05-22 22:42:03 yubrew has joined
2651 2013-05-22 22:43:31 <helo> bah sorry, it is the newly started bitcoind that is segfaulting
2652 2013-05-22 22:43:48 jedunnigan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2653 2013-05-22 22:44:05 <helo> i executed the new bitcoind as ./bitcoind &, so the segmentation fault error came from the background (duh)
2654 2013-05-22 22:44:33 <nsh> :)
2655 2013-05-22 22:44:41 <sipa> i get a segfault when running git head -nodaemon
2656 2013-05-22 22:44:48 <sipa> and bitcoind is already running
2657 2013-05-22 22:44:52 <sipa> with -daemon, no problem
2658 2013-05-22 22:46:25 <BlueMatt> well, pull-tester may a bit slower now, to accommodate a 185xMAX_BLOCK_SIZE reorg
2659 2013-05-22 22:47:41 <BlueMatt> at least 0.7 would have failed the new tests...its just a bit late...
2660 2013-05-22 22:48:26 savetheinternet has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2661 2013-05-22 22:48:56 * Luke-Jr ponders if BitcoinJ is going to continue Google's streak of removing interoperability from their crap <.<
2662 2013-05-22 22:49:05 gruez has joined
2663 2013-05-22 22:49:13 <BlueMatt> lol
2664 2013-05-22 22:49:18 <warren> eh?  bitcoinj is a Google project?
2665 2013-05-22 22:49:24 <Luke-Jr> … yes
2666 2013-05-22 22:49:46 <warren> I thought Google projects have mandatory Google+. =)
2667 2013-05-22 22:49:49 <BlueMatt> technically, yes, but its floss and it could trivially be forked
2668 2013-05-22 22:50:05 <BlueMatt> also, only one of its devs actually works at google
2669 2013-05-22 22:50:19 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: you heard about the rest though?
2670 2013-05-22 22:50:40 <BlueMatt> rest what?
2671 2013-05-22 22:51:01 <Luke-Jr> Google Reader is dropping RSS support; Google Talk is dropping XMPP interop
2672 2013-05-22 22:51:14 <BlueMatt> google reader is dropping all support...
2673 2013-05-22 22:51:19 <Luke-Jr> O.o
2674 2013-05-22 22:51:35 <BlueMatt> there  will be no google reader in like 7 days
2675 2013-05-22 22:51:44 icellan has joined
2676 2013-05-22 22:52:16 <Luke-Jr> o
2677 2013-05-22 22:52:25 <Luke-Jr> the Talk problem is much bigger
2678 2013-05-22 22:52:34 <Luke-Jr> suddenly Google just drops off the IM world
2679 2013-05-22 22:52:39 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2680 2013-05-22 22:52:59 <warren> Luke-Jr: or 0.1% of the IM world drops off Google
2681 2013-05-22 22:53:13 <Luke-Jr> warren: Google is the non-compliant service
2682 2013-05-22 22:53:15 rdymac has joined
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2685 2013-05-22 22:53:25 <Luke-Jr> or non-compatible or whatever
2686 2013-05-22 22:53:48 <warren> Luke-Jr: aren't we bitcoin people supposed to be in favor of the free market?
2687 2013-05-22 22:53:49 <Luke-Jr> from the "1% drops off of Google" perspective, it's clearly monopoly abuse
2688 2013-05-22 22:53:56 <Luke-Jr> warren: no
2689 2013-05-22 22:54:06 hpprinter100 has joined
2690 2013-05-22 22:54:26 <BlueMatt> no, its more like "we are spending dev hours supporting 0.001% of people, why?"
2691 2013-05-22 22:54:29 <BlueMatt> anyway...
2692 2013-05-22 22:54:31 * BlueMatt -> gone
2693 2013-05-22 22:54:43 <warren> supposedly their earlier dropping of XMPP was to stop spam
2694 2013-05-22 22:54:49 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: nobody's fault but their own that they maintain non-standard stuff
2695 2013-05-22 22:55:04 <Luke-Jr> they could go XMPP-only just as well
2696 2013-05-22 22:55:17 gruvfunk has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2697 2013-05-22 22:55:55 <Luke-Jr> warren: the whitelist was annoying, but even my private server was easily added to it
2698 2013-05-22 22:57:17 <gmaxwell> sweet, I got a SIGBUS from bitcoin when triggering out of space.
2699 2013-05-22 22:57:38 <sipa> :o
2700 2013-05-22 22:57:49 <Luke-Jr> O.o
2701 2013-05-22 22:57:55 <warren> Luke-Jr: I sometimes argue positions that I don't actually believe.
2702 2013-05-22 22:58:09 <Luke-Jr> warren: what a coincidence, me too!
2703 2013-05-22 22:59:34 ralphtheninja has joined
2704 2013-05-22 22:59:57 <gmaxwell> People who argue positions they do not believe should be killed and their skulls left on pikes as a warning to others.
2705 2013-05-22 23:00:08 <gwillen> gmaxwell: like in Game of Thrones!
2706 2013-05-22 23:00:27 tyn has joined
2707 2013-05-22 23:00:30 <gmaxwell> Do I even want to know what that is?
2708 2013-05-22 23:00:47 <gwillen> haha, I'm surprised you've not heard of it
2709 2013-05-22 23:00:48 <MC1984> wow get with it man
2710 2013-05-22 23:00:55 <MC1984> jeez
2711 2013-05-22 23:01:01 <gwillen> it's an HBO series based on a book series, "A Song of Ice and Fire", by George R. R. Martin
2712 2013-05-22 23:01:18 Guest30133 has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2713 2013-05-22 23:01:22 <gwillen> it's a swords-and-maybe-sorcery fantasy series
2714 2013-05-22 23:01:22 <gmaxwell> I dunno how anyone has time for TV!
2715 2013-05-22 23:01:24 <gwillen> but mostly swords
2716 2013-05-22 23:01:30 <gwillen> and lots of bloody coups
2717 2013-05-22 23:01:35 <sipa> it's the first TV series in years that i'm actually watching week-to-week
2718 2013-05-22 23:01:52 <gwillen> I don't have HBO, so I've been watching an, er, acquired copy
2719 2013-05-22 23:01:55 one_zero has joined
2720 2013-05-22 23:01:55 <gwillen> we're a bit behind current
2721 2013-05-22 23:02:04 <gwillen> (so no spoilers!)
2722 2013-05-22 23:02:05 <MC1984> we arnet all busy saving the world you know..
2723 2013-05-22 23:02:18 <MC1984> ive never actually seen it yet
2724 2013-05-22 23:02:30 <gwillen> I don't have an actual TV, but watching TV shows with friends is one of my few social activities ;-)
2725 2013-05-22 23:02:38 <gwillen> so I figure I can spare time for it.
2726 2013-05-22 23:02:43 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ._.
2727 2013-05-22 23:02:53 <sipa> Luke-Jr: is that morse?
2728 2013-05-22 23:03:12 <gmaxwell> I'll note that  mplayer -speed 1.2 -af ladspa=/usr/lib64/ladspa/tap_pitch.so:tap_pitch:0:-16.666666666666666666666666666666666667:-90:0,volume=10 file.xyz   will watch file.xyz with a 20% speedup, which is acceptable for pratically everything.
2729 2013-05-22 23:03:15 <gwillen> sipa: I believe it is a disapproving emoticon.
2730 2013-05-22 23:03:20 <Luke-Jr> no
2731 2013-05-22 23:03:23 <gwillen> oh okay
2732 2013-05-22 23:03:34 <sipa> gmaxwell: interesting
2733 2013-05-22 23:03:35 <Luke-Jr> it's a flat :|
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2736 2013-05-22 23:03:44 <BlueMattBot> Yippie, build fixed!
2737 2013-05-22 23:03:44 <BlueMattBot> Project Bitcoin build #334: FIXED in 45 min: http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/334/
2738 2013-05-22 23:03:54 <sipa> gwillen: i haven't seen the last episode yet either
2739 2013-05-22 23:04:09 <gwillen> gmaxwell: at one hour of TV a week, I don't think shaving off 1/6 of the time will make much difference
2740 2013-05-22 23:04:20 <gwillen> but it's a good tip :-)
2741 2013-05-22 23:04:21 <gmaxwell> 30% speedup is just fine for most things, but is obvious "fast"... 50% is _usually_ okay but fast dialog will need repeating which loses some of the benefit.  20% however is mostly unnoticable.
2742 2013-05-22 23:04:26 <gwillen> I watch my Coursera videos at 2x
2743 2013-05-22 23:04:33 <gwillen> keeps them fast enough not to be boring ;-)
2744 2013-05-22 23:05:05 <sipa> gwillen: usually i watch tv series "per season" rather than per episode, GoT is sort of an exception :)
2745 2013-05-22 23:05:07 <warren> gmaxwell: "argue positions they do not believe" as in sarcasm.
2746 2013-05-22 23:05:15 <gmaxwell> gwillen: well, use that commandline and do 5 hours of whatever I want per year and you still come out 5 hours per year ahead. :P
2747 2013-05-22 23:05:21 <gwillen> true!
2748 2013-05-22 23:05:45 <gwillen> sipa: well, like I said, watching TV with friends is one of my only social activities
2749 2013-05-22 23:05:47 rumpler has quit (Quit: meow)
2750 2013-05-22 23:05:53 <sipa> right
2751 2013-05-22 23:05:58 <gwillen> sipa: so it works a lot better at an hour a week
2752 2013-05-22 23:06:03 <gmaxwell> somewhere on like page 50 of the things I want to do is to write an adaptive filter that modulates between 50% and 20% based on detecting dialog.
2753 2013-05-22 23:06:07 <sipa> they may not appreciate the idea of you trying to minimize the time doing it :p
2754 2013-05-22 23:06:08 saivann has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2755 2013-05-22 23:06:13 <gwillen> currently I'm doing GoT, Doctor Who, and Sherlock
2756 2013-05-22 23:06:15 <gwillen> with different groups
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2758 2013-05-22 23:06:21 <gwillen> oh, and Babylon 5
2759 2013-05-22 23:06:24 <gwillen> with the same group as GoT
2760 2013-05-22 23:06:38 <gwillen> sipa: yeah :-)
2761 2013-05-22 23:06:53 <MC1984> dr who is terrible now
2762 2013-05-22 23:07:04 <MC1984> i cant suffer it
2763 2013-05-22 23:07:05 <gwillen> I am not on the latest season
2764 2013-05-22 23:07:05 icellan has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2765 2013-05-22 23:07:10 <gwillen> I'm still on S6
2766 2013-05-22 23:07:15 <gwillen> I understand the writing went to hell in S7
2767 2013-05-22 23:07:19 <gwillen> which I am not looking forward to
2768 2013-05-22 23:08:07 <MC1984> ill just say they started using suspense for the entire episode, which makes it not suspense
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2777 2013-05-22 23:17:30 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
2778 2013-05-22 23:18:23 <sipa> from an e-mail i just received:
2779 2013-05-22 23:18:25 <sipa> I am a marketing genie, like Steve Jobs! I am very very talented in finding loop holes in systems very quickly and offering solutions! I follow my heart! = ^_^
2780 2013-05-22 23:19:14 brwyatt_ is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt_
2781 2013-05-22 23:19:35 <lianj> ^^
2782 2013-05-22 23:19:57 <nsh> you might not want to mock too much if (s)he's actually a djinn
2783 2013-05-22 23:20:06 <nsh> i hear they have powers...
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2788 2013-05-22 23:25:30 k00shi has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2789 2013-05-22 23:27:59 Apexseals has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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2795 2013-05-22 23:31:12 <sipa> the mail also includes this idea:
2796 2013-05-22 23:31:16 <sipa> 1) We can create a Simple Search Engine, similar to Google, Bing, etc... but much less complicated = PEOPLE LOVE SIMPLE AND FULLY TRANSPARENT = LOVE ALL = TRUST ALL = CIVILIZATION = UNIVERSAL TRUTH = ^_^
2797 2013-05-22 23:33:32 <lianj> wth
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2801 2013-05-22 23:35:03 <edcba> yeah a spam ridden search engine :)
2802 2013-05-22 23:35:28 <warren> -frandom-seed=bitcoin <--- Is the random seed meant to be non-random?
2803 2013-05-22 23:35:49 <edcba> where you need to search bitcoin -download -mp3 -viagra -html -free -warez -gamez
2804 2013-05-22 23:36:35 <sipa> warren: in deterministic builds, absolutely
2805 2013-05-22 23:36:40 <gmaxwell> warren: ... you want a determinstic build, don't you?
2806 2013-05-22 23:36:54 <warren> ah.
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