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  12 2013-05-26 00:21:23 <wallet431> is there a possibility to ./bitcoind getprioritytransaction http://blockchain.info/de/tx/cd7e24c018efc429095097190f1f16f322f48674361705c1016c5282210ef4b4
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  14 2013-05-26 00:21:51 <wallet431> well… a mempool tx ofc
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  18 2013-05-26 00:33:55 <ProfMac> can I get the public key of a new address locally, using bitcoin-qt
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  20 2013-05-26 00:35:12 <gmaxwell> ProfMac: open the console, run validateaddress on it.
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  25 2013-05-26 00:42:27 <ProfMac> gmaxwell: thanks, that worked.
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  35 2013-05-26 00:53:15 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
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  45 2013-05-26 01:03:34 <ProfMac> I submitted the public key to https://vanitypool.appspot.com/newWork and it complains that it is compressed.
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  47 2013-05-26 01:06:16 <gmaxwell> ProfMac: tell the vanitypool people to fix their crap. Generating vanity addresses w/ compressed keys is _faster_ than uncompressed.
  48 2013-05-26 01:06:53 ColinT has joined
  49 2013-05-26 01:07:19 <ProfMac> lol.  I will.
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  58 2013-05-26 01:20:51 TheUni has joined
  59 2013-05-26 01:22:17 <TheUni> is there any interest in having the build process autotool'ified?
  60 2013-05-26 01:23:42 jaequery has joined
  61 2013-05-26 01:24:25 <sipa> yes, if 1) it supports all currently supported environments (ubuntu, osx, win32, win32 crosscompiled on linux, gitian, pulltester), and you're willing to maintain it long enough to be merged
  62 2013-05-26 01:25:06 py---busy has joined
  63 2013-05-26 01:25:09 <sipa> there have been half-working autotools and other build system ports before that were half workig and then abandoned by their authors
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  65 2013-05-26 01:25:52 <TheUni> sipa: i have experience doing it with some rather large projects, and i do almost exclusively cross-development. so seeing a .mk makes my eyes twitch
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  67 2013-05-26 01:26:45 <TheUni> i can understand how it'd be a 'patches welcome' kind of thing, just wanted to be sure i wouldn't be wasting my time
  68 2013-05-26 01:28:47 <sipa> TheUni: by all means, patches welcome otherwise
  69 2013-05-26 01:29:28 <TheUni> sipa: good to hear, thanks
  70 2013-05-26 01:32:17 <Luke-Jr> TheUni: ♥ antotools :D
  71 2013-05-26 01:32:52 <TheUni> typo? or some irony/sarcasm that i'm missing? :)
  72 2013-05-26 01:33:10 <Luke-Jr> no typo?
  73 2013-05-26 01:33:28 <Luke-Jr> oh, yes typo
  74 2013-05-26 01:33:31 <Luke-Jr> autotools*
  75 2013-05-26 01:33:38 * Luke-Jr wonders how he swapped an N out for a U
  76 2013-05-26 01:33:42 <TheUni> heh ok
  77 2013-05-26 01:34:16 <Luke-Jr> especially given that U is left side of kb and N is right O.o
  78 2013-05-26 01:34:29 <TheUni> i realize some are pretty strongly against it, but it's hard to imagine it being worse that completely static/unportable makefiles
  79 2013-05-26 01:34:51 <Luke-Jr> I don't think anyone working on Bitcoin-Qt is strongly against autotools
  80 2013-05-26 01:34:57 <TheUni> so if there's a reasonable chance it would be accepted, seems like a worthy way to stick my toe in for dev around here :)
  81 2013-05-26 01:35:09 <TheUni> well i figured the qt guys might favor cmake
  82 2013-05-26 01:35:25 <Luke-Jr> qmake maybe. but cmake = eww
  83 2013-05-26 01:35:39 <Luke-Jr> but I'll not speak for wumpus :P
  84 2013-05-26 01:36:07 <TheUni> heh, agreed. i can't stand it. it's torture for cross dev and maintainers. autotools is my offering :)
  85 2013-05-26 01:36:38 <TheUni> maintainers meaning downstreams (distros and integrators), not maintainers of the project itself
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  87 2013-05-26 01:40:06 <TheUni> hmm, the makefiles are simple than i was expecting. sipa: what were the downfalls of the other attempts? just not ensuring parity with the current system across the board?
  88 2013-05-26 01:40:12 <TheUni> *more simple
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  94 2013-05-26 01:46:13 <Luke-Jr> I think the last attempt was actually a hand-written configure script -.-
  95 2013-05-26 01:46:18 <Luke-Jr> which had major portability issues
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  97 2013-05-26 01:46:53 <TheUni> eh?
  98 2013-05-26 01:47:54 <TheUni> i just found PR 180, looks like a pretty good attempt except for the overkill m4's
  99 2013-05-26 01:48:37 <TheUni> (from a quick glance, at least)
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 104 2013-05-26 01:52:53 <TheUni> Luke-Jr / sipa: is there anyone that you recommend i ping before starting? I'm interested in diving in, and capable of doing the work, but i'd rather not have it get caught on some snag because i wasn't aware of some gotcha
 105 2013-05-26 01:53:02 garrettr has joined
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 107 2013-05-26 01:53:38 <sipa> TheUni: there is one unusual requirement, namely that gitian builds work
 108 2013-05-26 01:53:46 Akiron has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 109 2013-05-26 01:53:47 <sipa> TheUni: and are deterministic
 110 2013-05-26 01:53:55 ericmuyser has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 111 2013-05-26 01:54:04 <sipa> but there are frequently people here who are up to date
 112 2013-05-26 01:54:07 ericmuyser has joined
 113 2013-05-26 01:55:28 <sipa> but if you have a working build system that does everything that is currently supported, i have absolutely no problem with merging (i'm not the only one to decide that, but i think few would object)
 114 2013-05-26 01:58:52 <TheUni> sipa: i know nothing of gitian. from a quick look, seems like (at a high level) the same concept that distros use to build packages? meaning a recipe and set of tools to run it, which drives the usual toolchains?
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 117 2013-05-26 01:59:46 <TheUni> from a builder's pov i mean, excluding the trust part
 118 2013-05-26 02:00:00 nethershaw has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 119 2013-05-26 02:00:10 <sipa> TheUni: yes, the idea is a deterministic build environment inside a virtual machine, so people can independely end up with byte-indentical binaries
 120 2013-05-26 02:01:07 <sipa> TheUni: also, the leveldb code which lives inside the repository in a subdir may complicate things a bit perhaps
 121 2013-05-26 02:01:09 <TheUni> doesn't that entail a per-platform mandated toolchain?
 122 2013-05-26 02:01:18 <sipa> yes
 123 2013-05-26 02:01:33 <sipa> the gitian descriptors define those environments
 124 2013-05-26 02:01:48 <sipa> ubuntu lucid is used currently
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 126 2013-05-26 02:01:56 <TheUni> ok
 127 2013-05-26 02:02:11 <TheUni> so as far as the buildsystem goes, gitian would just need updated build instructions when the process changed?
 128 2013-05-26 02:02:18 <sipa> indeed
 129 2013-05-26 02:02:33 <sipa> i don't think it's particularly hard to adapt
 130 2013-05-26 02:02:38 <sipa> just be aware of it
 131 2013-05-26 02:02:41 <TheUni> got it, thanks.
 132 2013-05-26 02:02:51 <TheUni> yep, that's exactly the kind of info i was looking for
 133 2013-05-26 02:03:33 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 134 2013-05-26 02:04:05 <TheUni> sipa: looks like ideally leveldb would be a separate sub-configure?
 135 2013-05-26 02:04:58 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
 136 2013-05-26 02:05:27 <TheUni> (well, ideally broken out of the master project, but i certainly wouldn't attempt that as part of this effort)
 137 2013-05-26 02:05:45 <sipa> TheUni: yes, but we prefer not to touch the leveldb code too much
 138 2013-05-26 02:06:08 <sipa> so updates from upstream are easy to merge
 139 2013-05-26 02:06:52 <TheUni> seems strange, but i'll take that as an answer...
 140 2013-05-26 02:06:58 <sipa> and broken out: yes, there's actually another pullreq to move it to a separate subdir
 141 2013-05-26 02:07:11 <TheUni> what would you expect the autotools behavior for it to be?
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 145 2013-05-26 02:07:24 <TheUni> lumped in like the rest? or treated somewhat like an island?
 146 2013-05-26 02:08:17 <sipa> ideally, i'd say have it call the existing configure/make inside the leveldb subdir to build libleveldb.a/libmemenv.a, and then link against those .a files
 147 2013-05-26 02:08:18 <TheUni> by that i don't mean modifying leveldb itself, only how it's called to build
 148 2013-05-26 02:08:38 <sipa> which is what happens now, i guess
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 152 2013-05-26 02:08:58 <sipa> but i understand that may be harder to guarantee if you want to support more build environments
 153 2013-05-26 02:09:39 <TheUni> ok. i think i'll stop bothering you now, and educate myself before going any further
 154 2013-05-26 02:09:46 <TheUni> thanks a bunch for the guidance
 155 2013-05-26 02:10:04 <sipa> feel free to poke if things aren't clear
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 157 2013-05-26 02:12:26 <TheUni> roger. I'll work to get linux building, then resurface to address what it took to get to that point
 158 2013-05-26 02:12:48 <TheUni> i'm thinking it might be easier to get changes in in small hunks if possible, rather than trying to convert everyone at once
 159 2013-05-26 02:13:08 <TheUni> meaning side-by-side support for a while
 160 2013-05-26 02:13:55 <TheUni> sipa: ah, one other thing if you've got a spare min
 161 2013-05-26 02:15:35 <TheUni> sipa: for another project, i created a unified dependencies builder to avoid having to count on things like darwin ports. instead, we can self-build any dependency we need
 162 2013-05-26 02:15:58 <TheUni> would there be an interest in moving to something like that? or is the current system suitable?
 163 2013-05-26 02:15:59 <sipa> i know nothing about apple stuff
 164 2013-05-26 02:16:37 <TheUni> well as i said, it's unified. it was created for xbmc, as we have something like 60 dependencies
 165 2013-05-26 02:17:06 <TheUni> i did the android port there, and it required all of those libs built for android, where there is no ports system
 166 2013-05-26 02:17:46 <TheUni> so the result is a system of depends (basically a poor-man's ports) that can be used to build libs needed for a project. but it's small/simple enough to be owned by that project
 167 2013-05-26 02:17:51 <TheUni> ...if that makes any sense
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 169 2013-05-26 02:19:47 <TheUni> i guess i'm trying to determine if it makes sense to maintain the status quo for darwin, or look into something else while retooling
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 178 2013-05-26 02:34:50 <Luke-Jr> TheUni: also note db4.8 *specifically* is needed usually
 179 2013-05-26 02:35:03 <Luke-Jr> TheUni: so if someone wants to use another version, ideally they would need to manually tell configure to use it
 180 2013-05-26 02:35:32 <Luke-Jr> also, the include path for bdb++ is usually /usr/include/db4.8/, but some OS (Ubuntu mainly) might not have the subdir
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 192 2013-05-26 02:51:42 <TheUni> Luke-Jr: annoying, no pkg-config for libdb...
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 194 2013-05-26 02:52:07 <TheUni> Luke-Jr: but no worries, no assumptions about paths would be made, since that would be unportable for cross
 195 2013-05-26 02:52:38 <Luke-Jr> TheUni: ideal would be to find the correct paths :P
 196 2013-05-26 02:54:27 <TheUni> Luke-Jr: of course. i meant that no paths would be hard-coded. i would consider multi-lib and cross support to be mandatory
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 210 2013-05-26 03:13:19 <distortd> hey
 211 2013-05-26 03:13:44 <distortd> can somebody please help me set up my workstation?
 212 2013-05-26 03:14:33 <distortd> I've never worked with a large scale project, so i'm just trying to figure out how to pull off the main repo :/
 213 2013-05-26 03:15:20 <rs0_> just ask your question
 214 2013-05-26 03:15:33 <Luke-Jr> distortd: git clone git://blahblah
 215 2013-05-26 03:15:40 <Luke-Jr> distortd: github shows the git uri
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 217 2013-05-26 03:20:06 <distortd> wow I didn't have g++ installed o_O
 218 2013-05-26 03:20:19 <distortd> sweet it compiles
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 220 2013-05-26 03:21:44 <danwalton> hiya
 221 2013-05-26 03:21:57 <danwalton> is there a way to remove an unbroadcasted tx from my local blockchain?
 222 2013-05-26 03:22:19 <danwalton> or do i have to delete and resync
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 228 2013-05-26 03:27:33 <rs0_> danwalton: if you haven't even broadcast it i don't see how it could possibly be in your blockchain. do you mean the mempool?
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 234 2013-05-26 03:29:30 <distortd> hey Luke-Jr
 235 2013-05-26 03:29:49 <Luke-Jr> ?
 236 2013-05-26 03:29:51 <distortd> I'm getting some linker issues, so I tried updating the dependencies
 237 2013-05-26 03:30:01 <distortd> all 3 of them, for ubuntu 13.04
 238 2013-05-26 03:30:11 <distortd> on the build-unix in the docs/
 239 2013-05-26 03:30:20 <distortd> however, I'm still getting an error db.h:14:20: fatal error: db_cxx.h: No such file or directory
 240 2013-05-26 03:30:26 <distortd> and google isn't giving me much to work with
 241 2013-05-26 03:30:28 px has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 242 2013-05-26 03:30:28 <distortd> have you seen that before?
 243 2013-05-26 03:30:35 <Luke-Jr> did you set BDB_INCLUDE_PATH?
 244 2013-05-26 03:31:22 <distortd> I did not.. how do I do that? I thought that was only for gentoo
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 248 2013-05-26 03:31:54 <Luke-Jr> make -f makefile.unix BDB_INCLUDE_PATH=/usr/include/db4.8
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 250 2013-05-26 03:33:22 <rs0_> is C++11 support at the point where bitcoind could be migrated on all supported platforms?
 251 2013-05-26 03:34:01 <distortd> Luke-Jr, still same error
 252 2013-05-26 03:34:03 <rs0_> seems like variadic templates could eliminate a lot of redundant code. especially in net.h
 253 2013-05-26 03:36:12 <Luke-Jr> distortd: I speculate you didn't install the bdb headers then
 254 2013-05-26 03:36:28 <Luke-Jr> rs0_: afaik, there isn't a single C++11 compiler yet
 255 2013-05-26 03:36:38 Edward_Black has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 256 2013-05-26 03:37:41 <distortd> could you tell me where I could find bdb headers? all i find are websites talking about how good berkeley is ...
 257 2013-05-26 03:37:41 danwalton has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 258 2013-05-26 03:37:51 <Luke-Jr> bdb4.8-dev or something
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 260 2013-05-26 03:39:04 <rs0_> Luke-Jr: it looks like the latest gcc supports everything except C++11 garbage collection. http://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-4.8/cxx0x_status.html
 261 2013-05-26 03:39:15 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 262 2013-05-26 03:39:38 <Luke-Jr> rs0_: maybe. from what I've heard, GCC 4.8 is buggy even with code that used to work before though
 263 2013-05-26 03:39:57 <rs0_> Luke-Jr: ok. i'm not surprised, it is C++ after all
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 274 2013-05-26 03:48:19 <distortd> Alright, so I have build-essential, libssh, libboost-all-dev, libdb, and libbost1.37
 275 2013-05-26 03:48:19 molecular has joined
 276 2013-05-26 03:49:28 <distortd> grr what is this db_cxx
 277 2013-05-26 03:50:33 <rs0_> distortd: in my case i got them by installing libdb5.1++-dev
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 279 2013-05-26 03:51:50 <gmaxwell> If you link against bdb5.x your wallets will not be compatible with bitcoin linked against 4.8 (e.g. the official binaries)
 280 2013-05-26 03:55:01 danwalton has joined
 281 2013-05-26 03:56:25 <distortd> thanks rs0, gmaxwell: I should be fine since I'm interested in learning the code and hopefully fixing some bugs
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 285 2013-05-26 03:58:03 <distortd> well it seems to be compiling so far with 5.1 T_T
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 289 2013-05-26 03:59:07 <gmaxwell> distortd: sure it compiles fine, but will make wallets incompatible.
 290 2013-05-26 03:59:50 <distortd> gmaxwell do you know how to make it compile with 4.8 though?
 291 2013-05-26 04:00:00 px has joined
 292 2013-05-26 04:00:29 <distortd> I get the db_cxx not found error
 293 2013-05-26 04:00:45 <distortd> and I'm confused as to how to fix that
 294 2013-05-26 04:00:48 <rs0_> on my system i see libdb5.1++-dev and libdb4.8-dev available for installation, but no libdb4.8++-dev
 295 2013-05-26 04:01:53 <rs0_> i don't know what the difference is supposed to be between the two--i guess the ++ variants supply a C++ wrapper API around the C API?
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 297 2013-05-26 04:02:34 <distortd> ahh I see
 298 2013-05-26 04:02:43 <distortd> they discontinued libdb4.8++
 299 2013-05-26 04:02:45 <CodeShark> the wallets should have an export format that is independent of the underlying disk file representation
 300 2013-05-26 04:02:51 <distortd> that's retarded...
 301 2013-05-26 04:03:00 <rs0_> is 4.x EOL or something?
 302 2013-05-26 04:03:11 danwalton has joined
 303 2013-05-26 04:03:48 <rs0_> CodeShark: i don't believe in having the validating bitcoin node software coupled to a wallet implementation in the first place. it made sense when bitcoin was in its infancy, not nearly so much now
 304 2013-05-26 04:04:17 <CodeShark> oh, I've been a huge advocate of separating the wallet functionality from the validation/relay functionality for a long time
 305 2013-05-26 04:04:26 <CodeShark> believe me, you don't have to convince me of the merits of doing this :)
 306 2013-05-26 04:05:00 <CodeShark> just saying that as far as wallet apps go, it would be nice to have an export format that is independent of the underlying disk file format
 307 2013-05-26 04:05:25 <rs0_> does BIP-32 specify an export format?
 308 2013-05-26 04:05:34 <CodeShark> not that I'm aware of
 309 2013-05-26 04:05:42 <CodeShark> but it might be a good idea to develop a standard
 310 2013-05-26 04:05:49 <CodeShark> for interoperability between different wallet clients
 311 2013-05-26 04:06:49 <CodeShark> I think sipa at one point had worked on a json wallet export
 312 2013-05-26 04:06:55 <CodeShark> or something along those lines
 313 2013-05-26 04:07:36 <danwalton> what will it look like if someone double spends a coin they sent me?
 314 2013-05-26 04:07:58 <danwalton> does bitcoind let you know this happened or does the transaction just vanish?
 315 2013-05-26 04:08:15 <CodeShark> bitcoind doesn't handle doublespends very well right now - you'll just never see it confirm
 316 2013-05-26 04:08:24 <danwalton> it stays 0 confirmed?
 317 2013-05-26 04:08:25 <gmaxwell> danwalton: if you ever saw the initial payment to begin with, you'll continue to see it unconfirmed forever.
 318 2013-05-26 04:08:37 <gmaxwell> if you never saw the conflicted spend, you'll continue to never see it.
 319 2013-05-26 04:08:37 <CodeShark> danwalton: yes
 320 2013-05-26 04:09:14 brson has quit (Quit: leaving)
 321 2013-05-26 04:09:51 <danwalton> what stops someone from sending bitcoin to satoshidice then double spending when they loose?
 322 2013-05-26 04:10:04 <danwalton> does satoshidice pay before the coin is confirmed?
 323 2013-05-26 04:10:58 <danwalton> i guess peers don't relay coins that they have already seen txs for...
 324 2013-05-26 04:10:59 <rs0_> danwalton: satoshidice basically responds immediately, so the expectation is that both transactions will be baked into the same block
 325 2013-05-26 04:11:27 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: there's been discussion of an append-only wallet format
 326 2013-05-26 04:11:28 <gmaxwell> danwalton: they don't respond right away for bets of non-trivial value. They got ripped off a bunch that way in the past.
 327 2013-05-26 04:11:40 wallet43 has joined
 328 2013-05-26 04:12:10 <danwalton> right, because people could invalidate a bet by responding looses
 329 2013-05-26 04:12:18 <danwalton> responding = respending
 330 2013-05-26 04:13:18 <CodeShark> a problem I've been trying to solve is combining BIP0032 with multisig transactions
 331 2013-05-26 04:14:24 <CodeShark> and perhaps developing some protocol for passing around partially signed transactions on a private network
 332 2013-05-26 04:14:29 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: whats the problem? define a template to merge multiple extended pubkeys.
 333 2013-05-26 04:15:12 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: still not sure how to best do this to allow for flexible policy - while not overly complicating it
 334 2013-05-26 04:17:14 <CodeShark> there should be good high-level tools for admins to be able to define policy
 335 2013-05-26 04:17:47 <TheUni> sipa: ping
 336 2013-05-26 04:18:00 <CodeShark> my vision is not of a monolithic single-user client wallet - but rather, a bunch of signing nodes that cooperate in authorizing transactions
 337 2013-05-26 04:18:05 <CodeShark> with flexible policy
 338 2013-05-26 04:18:36 <CodeShark> alerts, audits, etc...
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 344 2013-05-26 04:19:11 <gmaxwell> sure, you need some way of generating addresses in common though. Once you've done that you then need a way of passing around incomplete txns.
 345 2013-05-26 04:19:45 FabianB_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 346 2013-05-26 04:20:19 wallet43 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 347 2013-05-26 04:21:22 <CodeShark> some simple policies I can come up with off the top of my head is a certain volume limit per unit of time - below which transactions process automatically. above that, alerts are sent to specific users requiring additional signatures
 348 2013-05-26 04:27:10 nus has joined
 349 2013-05-26 04:27:42 <warren> Nobody else is complaining about hang on shutdown of bitcoind or bitcoin-qt?
 350 2013-05-26 04:27:48 <CodeShark> the same peer discovery and relay mechanisms could be applied to the propagation of partially signed transactions on a VPN
 351 2013-05-26 04:29:13 <CodeShark> to avoid the need for any central administration of the wallet node distribution
 352 2013-05-26 04:29:13 danwalton has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 353 2013-05-26 04:30:05 <CodeShark> multiple entities could create their own master private keys and set up joint policies on a jointly controlled wallet
 354 2013-05-26 04:30:12 danwalton has joined
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 362 2013-05-26 04:36:29 danwalton has joined
 363 2013-05-26 04:37:15 <CodeShark> another tricky issue is all the non-key-specific data...like associations between keys, accounts, contacts, customers, etc...
 364 2013-05-26 04:37:43 danwalton has quit (Client Quit)
 365 2013-05-26 04:37:47 <CodeShark> ideally all this data would be in some distributed database that doesn't require explicit backups :)
 366 2013-05-26 04:38:11 <sipa> TheUni: pong
 367 2013-05-26 04:38:31 <TheUni> sipa: i have linux client up and running, wasn't too bad at all...
 368 2013-05-26 04:38:39 <TheUni> but now i'm stumped thinking about qt
 369 2013-05-26 04:38:44 <Luke-Jr> qmake && make
 370 2013-05-26 04:38:58 <TheUni> heh, i meant in relation to autotools
 371 2013-05-26 04:39:13 <sipa> do your worst
 372 2013-05-26 04:39:18 <distortd> Luke I want to kill this thing
 373 2013-05-26 04:39:27 <sipa> ?
 374 2013-05-26 04:39:31 <distortd> I'm installing berkeley db right now
 375 2013-05-26 04:39:49 <distortd> I had to dig through tons of internet to find version 4.8, and even more internet to find compile instructions
 376 2013-05-26 04:39:59 <TheUni> sipa: i meant that i have bitcoind building with autotools, but i'm not sure what the desired outcome would be for bitcoin-qt
 377 2013-05-26 04:40:11 <TheUni> since the two aren't really compatible in any way
 378 2013-05-26 04:40:40 <sipa> how do you mean?
 379 2013-05-26 04:41:03 <Luke-Jr> TheUni: --enable-frontends=bitcoind,bitcoin-qt :P
 380 2013-05-26 04:41:11 <Luke-Jr> perhaps with that being the default too
 381 2013-05-26 04:41:22 <sipa> that'd be nice
 382 2013-05-26 04:41:34 <TheUni> sipa: how would you suggest to integrate them? just have the main makefile call 'qmake' on the qt makefile?
 383 2013-05-26 04:41:47 <Luke-Jr> TheUni: I'd replace qmake IMO
 384 2013-05-26 04:41:50 <sipa> oh, i hoped to get rid of qmake entirely
 385 2013-05-26 04:41:55 <TheUni> ah, ok
 386 2013-05-26 04:42:05 <Luke-Jr> it's redundant with the other build system unless you do that :P
 387 2013-05-26 04:42:17 <TheUni> <TheUni> since the two aren't really compatible in any way
 388 2013-05-26 04:42:18 <TheUni> :)
 389 2013-05-26 04:42:25 <TheUni> i didn't realize that was up for discussion
 390 2013-05-26 04:42:33 <Luke-Jr> Diapolo will probably be upset
 391 2013-05-26 04:42:35 <Luke-Jr> :P
 392 2013-05-26 04:42:48 <sipa> yeah i didn't understand that; bitcoind and bitcoin-qt are extremely compatible
 393 2013-05-26 04:42:57 <sipa> but you were talking about the current build systems
 394 2013-05-26 04:43:07 <TheUni> well doesn't that neuter some/most of the qt dev apps?
 395 2013-05-26 04:43:11 <TheUni> killing off qmake support, i mean
 396 2013-05-26 04:43:15 <Luke-Jr> probably
 397 2013-05-26 04:43:18 <sipa> no clue
 398 2013-05-26 04:43:24 <sipa> perhaps talk to wumpus first
 399 2013-05-26 04:43:25 <Luke-Jr> but hey, people must do it somehow
 400 2013-05-26 04:43:25 <distortd> OMG
 401 2013-05-26 04:43:29 <Luke-Jr> KDE doesn't use qmake
 402 2013-05-26 04:43:49 <Luke-Jr> I bet there's a way to make a project-only .pro
 403 2013-05-26 04:43:56 <Luke-Jr> that calls configure and make
 404 2013-05-26 04:44:20 <Luke-Jr> but focus on just doing it all in automake first IMO
 405 2013-05-26 04:44:23 <TheUni> ok. well i'll ignore the qt side of things for now
 406 2013-05-26 04:44:29 <sipa> i expect wumpus to be asleep for a few more hours though
 407 2013-05-26 04:44:58 <TheUni> no worries, i didn't intend to get this knocked out in a night :p
 408 2013-05-26 04:45:14 <Luke-Jr> it'd be nice if eventually we can have "satoshi", "bitcoind" and "bitcoin-qt" repos that can be mix/match'd this way :P
 409 2013-05-26 04:45:34 <sipa> ?
 410 2013-05-26 04:45:38 <Luke-Jr> or at least directories, to avoid API issues for now
 411 2013-05-26 04:45:46 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
 412 2013-05-26 04:45:50 <TheUni> and i surely would want input from the subsystem guys, i'm sure i won't have a chance of getting merged if i nuke out any functionality
 413 2013-05-26 04:46:01 <Luke-Jr> sipa: so more clients can easily share the codebase
 414 2013-05-26 04:46:06 <sipa> ah, you mean satoshi as the shared common core, and bitcoind and qt as frontends?
 415 2013-05-26 04:46:09 <Luke-Jr> right
 416 2013-05-26 04:46:16 <TheUni> Luke-Jr: libbitcoin makes way more sense to me for that
 417 2013-05-26 04:46:23 <TheUni> not sure if that's a bad word around here for any reason
 418 2013-05-26 04:46:26 <Luke-Jr> TheUni: libbitcoin is a from-scratch implementation
 419 2013-05-26 04:46:54 <sipa> a library approach is certainly nicer
 420 2013-05-26 04:46:55 <Luke-Jr> so perhaps that'd end up being libsatoshi :P
 421 2013-05-26 04:46:58 <sipa> i'm all for that
 422 2013-05-26 04:47:16 <TheUni> bbl, thanks for the the help
 423 2013-05-26 04:47:43 <sipa> but that'd mean huge amounts of refactoring
 424 2013-05-26 04:47:43 <sipa> and those are not usually consider very high priority...
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 440 2013-05-26 05:33:21 <CodeShark> refactoring is often a no-brainer when working alone - but it can be a monumental effort when working in a larger group
 441 2013-05-26 05:34:36 <CodeShark> there are good, practical reasons to prefer well-tested albeit ugly code over clean code that nobody has ever used before
 442 2013-05-26 05:35:10 _caedes has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
 443 2013-05-26 05:35:50 <CodeShark> at least in the short-term
 444 2013-05-26 05:38:20 nus- has joined
 445 2013-05-26 05:38:43 <IanCormac> I'm not a huge fan of some of the names in the bitcoind source; they're a little confusing. But I agree, it would probably be monumentally complex to change them, and might not accomplish much.
 446 2013-05-26 05:39:21 rdponticelli has joined
 447 2013-05-26 05:40:27 <CodeShark> when working with a larger group, it's often much more important that everyone agree on whatever is there (even if full of warts) than to try to impose something without warts...which often just leads to factioning, with different groups each purporting to have the better wartless version of whatever
 448 2013-05-26 05:40:49 <CodeShark> all of which are mutually incompatible, of course
 449 2013-05-26 05:41:36 <CodeShark> a certain momentum builds - and can't be steered too abruptly without breaking something somewhere
 450 2013-05-26 05:41:57 shesek has joined
 451 2013-05-26 05:42:28 nus has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 452 2013-05-26 05:42:45 coderrr has joined
 453 2013-05-26 05:43:00 nus-- has joined
 454 2013-05-26 05:43:24 <CodeShark> so you either have to build something superior yourself and convince enough people to jump ship - or...you have to try to steer the existing ship from within, slowly
 455 2013-05-26 05:44:29 <CodeShark> I've learned this lesson the hard way...more than once :p
 456 2013-05-26 05:46:52 nus- has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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 460 2013-05-26 05:51:16 donpdonp has joined
 461 2013-05-26 05:52:49 <user741> survival of the fittest baby
 462 2013-05-26 05:53:24 <IanCormac> Problem is when evolution kills out all competing species
 463 2013-05-26 05:54:46 <CodeShark> evolution sometimes favors cooperation
 464 2013-05-26 05:54:56 <CodeShark> but not always ;)
 465 2013-05-26 05:56:12 <IanCormac> Indeed. The trick is that Bitcoin is still at the single-celled organism phase, were competition might not have the same benefits it would in a mature, genetically diverse environment
 466 2013-05-26 05:59:02 <Plinker> Sounds like a scam!
 467 2013-05-26 05:59:07 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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 469 2013-05-26 06:01:39 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 470 2013-05-26 06:02:58 <Luke-Jr> … is there no way to get raw block data from bitcoind RPC? :/
 471 2013-05-26 06:04:29 <CodeShark> not directly, I don't think
 472 2013-05-26 06:04:49 danwalton has joined
 473 2013-05-26 06:04:56 <CodeShark> you can tx-index and then query the transactions one by one and serialize the structure yourself :p
 474 2013-05-26 06:05:13 <maaku_> Luke-Jr: p2p?
 475 2013-05-26 06:05:18 maaku_ is now known as maaku
 476 2013-05-26 06:05:30 <CodeShark> he said RPC
 477 2013-05-26 06:05:35 <CodeShark> of course you can via p2p
 478 2013-05-26 06:06:01 <Luke-Jr> yeah, sigh
 479 2013-05-26 06:06:04 subcube has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 480 2013-05-26 06:06:45 <CodeShark> would be fairly straightforward to expose that capability in the RPC, though
 481 2013-05-26 06:07:24 <user741> Guys, will these confirmation times ever go less than 30 seconds? Is there any risk of double-spending if BTC were to be accepted at the point of sale of a brick-n-mortar?
 482 2013-05-26 06:08:03 <dugo> getting worse w/ replace-by-fee
 483 2013-05-26 06:08:50 MoALTz_ has joined
 484 2013-05-26 06:08:52 <user741> replace by fee?
 485 2013-05-26 06:08:55 <Luke-Jr> user741: under 30 seconds for confirmation is impossible with the current speed of internet traffic
 486 2013-05-26 06:09:14 <Luke-Jr> user741: most brick-n-mortar don't need confirmation anyway
 487 2013-05-26 06:09:23 <Luke-Jr> credit cards take 6 months to confirm, and they work fine
 488 2013-05-26 06:09:23 <user741> y not?
 489 2013-05-26 06:09:30 <CodeShark> under 30 seconds for confirmation is actually possible - just not extremely probable. but it does happen every now and then, Luke-Jr :p
 490 2013-05-26 06:09:39 donpdonp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 491 2013-05-26 06:09:49 <CodeShark> problem is it doesn't necessarily happen when you want it to
 492 2013-05-26 06:09:56 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: not really. 1 block is not sufficient to confirm transactions
 493 2013-05-26 06:10:05 <user741> credit cards pay the mercahnt instantly.... the credit card company pays the merchant and the customer pays later
 494 2013-05-26 06:10:24 <Luke-Jr> user741: and 5 months later, the customer says "the product sucked" and gets the money pulled back
 495 2013-05-26 06:10:32 <CodeShark> I was just talking about one block. but even two blocks within 30 seconds has happened before
 496 2013-05-26 06:10:33 <user741> depends
 497 2013-05-26 06:10:39 <user741> if its amex then yes
 498 2013-05-26 06:10:45 <user741> but not visa or mc
 499 2013-05-26 06:10:47 <Luke-Jr> user741: strictly speaking, you can spend a bitcoin transaction instantly
 500 2013-05-26 06:11:04 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: not the standard 6
 501 2013-05-26 06:11:07 <user741> ya but it has to get confirmed no?
 502 2013-05-26 06:11:10 <SomeoneWeird> user741, yes if it's visa or mc
 503 2013-05-26 06:11:19 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr: the standard 6 is overkill when selling a pack of chewing gum
 504 2013-05-26 06:11:21 <Luke-Jr> user741: for the same security credit cards provide after 6 months
 505 2013-05-26 06:11:24 <user741> cuz what if the tx doesnt propagate all the way thru
 506 2013-05-26 06:11:25 topace has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 507 2013-05-26 06:11:33 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: waiting for the transaction to confirm for gum, is overkill
 508 2013-05-26 06:11:41 <Luke-Jr> but it still needs 6+ to really confirm
 509 2013-05-26 06:11:46 MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 510 2013-05-26 06:12:04 <CodeShark> 6 isn't a magic number
 511 2013-05-26 06:12:22 <CodeShark> you need to factor in the actual risk
 512 2013-05-26 06:12:24 <user741> really 6 mo to confirm for ccs?
 513 2013-05-26 06:12:25 <CodeShark> and motives
 514 2013-05-26 06:12:33 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: when deciding whether to wait for the confirm
 515 2013-05-26 06:12:36 <user741> u pay my balance on the month tho
 516 2013-05-26 06:12:39 <CodeShark> 6 is overkill for chewing gum - might not be overkill when buying a car
 517 2013-05-26 06:12:42 <user741> so obiv it took less time than that
 518 2013-05-26 06:12:44 <Luke-Jr> user741: you can dispute it up to 6 months later
 519 2013-05-26 06:12:50 <user741> ooo i c
 520 2013-05-26 06:13:09 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: with btcguild, I'd wait until 10 for selling a car
 521 2013-05-26 06:13:38 topace has joined
 522 2013-05-26 06:13:40 <CodeShark> then there are other factors - like whether you trust the person with whom you're transacting
 523 2013-05-26 06:13:53 <CodeShark> or whether you have other accounts with them or collateral or legal protection
 524 2013-05-26 06:13:56 <user741> right
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 526 2013-05-26 06:14:07 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: these other factors are just your decision whether you need the confirm or not - it doesn't make the confirm itself any quicker
 527 2013-05-26 06:14:38 <user741> but ur talking about confirmation between the customer and the merchant
 528 2013-05-26 06:15:03 <user741> with BTC is a different sort of confirmation
 529 2013-05-26 06:15:13 <Luke-Jr> user741: not really
 530 2013-05-26 06:15:40 <user741> its kinda of like an acknowledge
 531 2013-05-26 06:15:48 <Luke-Jr> user741: you instantly have the bitcoins when the transaction is done; it just requires blocks to make it irreversible
 532 2013-05-26 06:16:53 <user741> and how long does that usually take?
 533 2013-05-26 06:17:01 parus_ has joined
 534 2013-05-26 06:17:09 <CodeShark> there's a wide variance, user741
 535 2013-05-26 06:17:17 <dugo> this table https://bitcoil.co.il/Doublespend.pdf gives BTC guild a 9.983% chence to pull off a double spend at 10 confirms
 536 2013-05-26 06:17:18 miscreanity has joined
 537 2013-05-26 06:17:19 <CodeShark> on average it takes an hour for 6 confirmations
 538 2013-05-26 06:17:43 miscreanity is now known as Guest97588
 539 2013-05-26 06:17:46 <CodeShark> in practice it could mean 20 minutes or 5 hours
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 542 2013-05-26 06:18:14 <user741> i just think thats the only thing holding btc from being universally accepted
 543 2013-05-26 06:18:23 Wrenuld has quit (Ping timeout: 361 seconds)
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 545 2013-05-26 06:18:25 <user741> i mean mainstream
 546 2013-05-26 06:18:37 monkeynipples_ has joined
 547 2013-05-26 06:18:49 <dugo> bank accounts and cheques got mainstream too .. they are worse
 548 2013-05-26 06:18:52 <CodeShark> the only thing?
 549 2013-05-26 06:18:56 <CodeShark> certainly one thing
 550 2013-05-26 06:19:00 <user741> ya
 551 2013-05-26 06:19:02 <user741> i think
 552 2013-05-26 06:19:10 <CodeShark> but there are quite a few other issues that have yet to be solved
 553 2013-05-26 06:19:38 <user741> sure
 554 2013-05-26 06:19:57 <user741> i love the idea of btc tho.... i really hope it gets to that lever
 555 2013-05-26 06:20:00 <user741> level*
 556 2013-05-26 06:20:07 <CodeShark> slow sync time, lack of easy-to-use wallet software, the fact that secure storage will ultimately require trusting a third party for most people, the fact that exchanges are not decentralized and it's expensive to move fiat between exchanges (just to name a few)
 557 2013-05-26 06:20:17 Wrenuld has joined
 558 2013-05-26 06:20:37 <user741> exchanges come n go....
 559 2013-05-26 06:20:39 <CodeShark> there are a number of issues that make bitcoin *hard* and *VERY IMPRACTICAL* for most people still
 560 2013-05-26 06:21:12 <CodeShark> and I haven't even gotten into the markets, volatility, etc...
 561 2013-05-26 06:21:22 <CodeShark> the need for derivative markets
 562 2013-05-26 06:21:40 <CodeShark> the only way to guarantee a price for an extended time is with futures contracts
 563 2013-05-26 06:21:55 <user741> sure somebody will dev up some sleek wallet app
 564 2013-05-26 06:22:10 <CodeShark> the wallet app is the simplest one of all these issues to solve :)
 565 2013-05-26 06:22:13 wallet43 has joined
 566 2013-05-26 06:22:15 <CodeShark> in fact, remove that one from the list
 567 2013-05-26 06:22:22 <user741> hahah
 568 2013-05-26 06:22:56 <user741> i think blockchain.info did a good job
 569 2013-05-26 06:23:08 donpdonp has joined
 570 2013-05-26 06:23:22 <CodeShark> blockchain.info is good for casual spending of small amounts on the web - I certainly wouldn't trust it with my life savings
 571 2013-05-26 06:23:31 <user741> def not
 572 2013-05-26 06:23:49 <user741> i just love how btc just cuts out the need for banks
 573 2013-05-26 06:24:35 <CodeShark> banks will still be necessary - if for no other reason than that people don't want the responsibility of securing all their own assets
 574 2013-05-26 06:24:51 <user741> ATMs? pshhhh.... ill just withdraw money out of my printer
 575 2013-05-26 06:25:29 <CodeShark> yeah, until you lose your private keys or they get stolen
 576 2013-05-26 06:25:38 <user741> banks will be reduced to some sort of software
 577 2013-05-26 06:26:00 jaequery has joined
 578 2013-05-26 06:26:35 <dugo> banks do a lot more than running a payment infrastructure
 579 2013-05-26 06:27:04 <CodeShark> then there's the whole issue of credit, loans, managing large funds, etc...
 580 2013-05-26 06:27:10 <user741> i guess but all that can be improved by software
 581 2013-05-26 06:27:17 jaequery has quit (Client Quit)
 582 2013-05-26 06:27:22 <Scrat> banks can insure against user stupidity
 583 2013-05-26 06:27:24 <user741> no need to deal with banker
 584 2013-05-26 06:27:42 <user741> or a teller
 585 2013-05-26 06:27:44 <Scrat> "what? you were keylogged? it's fine we'll cover it"
 586 2013-05-26 06:27:47 <Scrat> for a price
 587 2013-05-26 06:27:55 <user741> haha
 588 2013-05-26 06:28:10 <Scrat> although it would be hard to prove that a thief stole the funds and not you
 589 2013-05-26 06:28:14 <CodeShark> as long as there are humans there will be protection rackets :p
 590 2013-05-26 06:28:54 <Plinker> Same as pigeons!
 591 2013-05-26 06:28:57 <CodeShark> but it's not only other humans that threaten us - mother nature does a fine job herself
 592 2013-05-26 06:29:06 <Scrat> just wondering when will the first bank support btc denominated accounts
 593 2013-05-26 06:29:27 <user741> ya
 594 2013-05-26 06:29:42 <dugo> http://www.bitplastic.com/
 595 2013-05-26 06:29:54 <user741> basically, dont let your keys get stolen... period
 596 2013-05-26 06:30:30 IanCormac has quit (Quit: IanCormac)
 597 2013-05-26 06:31:13 <user741> does this bitplastic actually work?
 598 2013-05-26 06:31:14 wallet43 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 599 2013-05-26 06:32:42 <user741> it sounds pretty nice
 600 2013-05-26 06:33:14 <user741> i have more btc that cash right now haha
 601 2013-05-26 06:34:03 <user741> would love it if i could magically transform btc to usd on the spot.
 602 2013-05-26 06:35:16 <Scrat> lol, google is still linking to wap pages on bitcointalk.org
 603 2013-05-26 06:35:31 <Scrat> I mean wap... welcome to 2000
 604 2013-05-26 06:36:21 <Scrat> theymos thinks it's fine to run 11 year old forum software
 605 2013-05-26 06:36:24 <Scrat> what a joke
 606 2013-05-26 06:38:06 <user741> no need to fix something that isnt broken
 607 2013-05-26 06:39:16 <Luke-Jr> everything is broken
 608 2013-05-26 06:39:45 <user741> u must be a developer
 609 2013-05-26 06:39:50 <Scrat> user741: we're on the topic of public acceptance and going mainstream. an unusable pile of mess straight from the 20th century isn't going to help
 610 2013-05-26 06:40:57 <user741> i thought the forum works perfectly fine
 611 2013-05-26 06:41:30 * dugo murmles something about discussions belonging on USENET
 612 2013-05-26 06:42:00 <user741> haha usenet
 613 2013-05-26 06:42:24 tyn has joined
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 616 2013-05-26 06:43:01 <user741> bittorrent vs. usenet
 617 2013-05-26 06:44:06 <Scrat> user741: well sure, but you're probably a developer. you'd be ok with the discussion being a concatenated ascii file
 618 2013-05-26 06:45:36 danwalton has quit (Quit: danwalton)
 619 2013-05-26 06:45:38 <user741> yes
 620 2013-05-26 06:46:17 <user741> not sure how else it could be improved
 621 2013-05-26 06:47:01 <phantomcircuit> Scrat, suggested alternative?
 622 2013-05-26 06:48:06 <Scrat> phantomcircuit: there's a couple of commercial packages that allow customization and user addons
 623 2013-05-26 06:48:37 <user741> like switch to phpBB?
 624 2013-05-26 06:49:14 <user741> or vBulletin
 625 2013-05-26 06:49:17 <Scrat> I don't like phpbb
 626 2013-05-26 06:49:59 <phantomcircuit> Scrat, like waht
 627 2013-05-26 06:50:11 <phantomcircuit> im seriously asking for suggestions
 628 2013-05-26 06:51:15 <Scrat> like anything that's not SMF 1
 629 2013-05-26 06:52:31 <Scrat> big forums (ie. XDA) seem to be doing fine with vbulletin
 630 2013-05-26 06:53:51 <CodeShark> the biggest problem with bitcointalk.org is not the choice of forum software :p
 631 2013-05-26 06:54:06 <Scrat> then you have a standardized platform that the community can improve upon
 632 2013-05-26 06:54:06 <Scrat> instead of editing 11 year old PHP code
 633 2013-05-26 06:56:04 Apexseals has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 634 2013-05-26 06:56:16 <Scrat> CodeShark: I went on a rant because it's just so shitty... I googled "bitcoin credit card" and the first results were links to wap pages on bitcointalk
 635 2013-05-26 06:56:57 <Scrat> actually no, bitcointalk bitplastic
 636 2013-05-26 06:58:01 duSn has joined
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 638 2013-05-26 06:59:55 <user741> at least its SEO
 639 2013-05-26 07:00:21 <user741> not a bad thing
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 642 2013-05-26 07:10:30 <user741> word
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 708 2013-05-26 08:41:49 <phantomcircuit> im only on block 188000 and i already have 23 million tx outs
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 712 2013-05-26 08:47:59 <lianj> phantomcircuit: [ Output, Input, Transaction, Block ].map{|i| i.all.size } => [44552990, 38780530, 18332727, 237621]
 713 2013-05-26 08:48:21 <phantomcircuit> lianj, oh well im halfway
 714 2013-05-26 08:48:25 <phantomcircuit> i thought it was worse than that
 715 2013-05-26 08:49:03 one_zero has joined
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 717 2013-05-26 08:50:08 <phantomcircuit> lianj, i actually have 8 bitcoind instances running as a work around for the slow rpc calls
 718 2013-05-26 08:50:12 donpdonp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 719 2013-05-26 08:50:30 <phantomcircuit> it's not even the processing time for each call but the latency of making requests 1 at a time
 720 2013-05-26 08:51:42 <phantomcircuit> only 46k more blocks to go
 721 2013-05-26 08:51:43 <phantomcircuit> lol
 722 2013-05-26 08:51:58 <phantomcircuit> 46016
 723 2013-05-26 08:52:03 <phantomcircuit> 46008
 724 2013-05-26 08:52:54 user741 has joined
 725 2013-05-26 08:53:10 <lianj> what are you doing?
 726 2013-05-26 08:53:24 <phantomcircuit> lianj, magick
 727 2013-05-26 08:53:27 <phantomcircuit> hehe
 728 2013-05-26 08:54:18 <phantomcircuit> someone was in here yesterday asking how he can cross reference 1 million addresses against all the transaction outputs (not his exact words but it's what he meant)
 729 2013-05-26 08:55:02 <phantomcircuit> this would probably be 10000x faster as a modification to bitcoind
 730 2013-05-26 08:55:03 <Populus> Hello, a few days ago a transaction never went through, it was stuck at "Seen by 1 peer" for 24 hours. The help file told me to reset blockchain & transaction and so I did. My wallet (multibit) does not show my proper balance and blockchain says I have unspent output (1.51btc, should be 1.6)
 731 2013-05-26 08:55:20 user741 has quit (Client Quit)
 732 2013-05-26 08:55:38 <lianj> phantomcircuit: yea, the answer is build your own indecies, no?
 733 2013-05-26 08:55:46 <phantomcircuit> right
 734 2013-05-26 08:55:53 user741 has joined
 735 2013-05-26 08:56:07 <phantomcircuit> there's also a patch floating around to add an address map to bitcoind
 736 2013-05-26 08:56:09 <lianj> thats prolly what every blockexplorer like service does/did
 737 2013-05-26 08:56:22 <phantomcircuit> which is something people have been looking for forever
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 747 2013-05-26 09:00:57 <phantomcircuit> sipa, iirc you said there was a patch somewhere that added an index for address look ups
 748 2013-05-26 09:01:11 <Luke-Jr> anyone want to check if LevelDB 1.10 could change any protocol rules? a quick look-over didn't enable me to easily rule it out :<
 749 2013-05-26 09:01:23 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: IIRC he said he refused to publish it
 750 2013-05-26 09:01:33 <Luke-Jr> because such an index is useless
 751 2013-05-26 09:02:00 <gwillen> Luke-Jr: I don't see it as likely that any reasonable inspection could establish the property that leveldb 1.10 changes no protocol rules
 752 2013-05-26 09:02:05 <phantomcircuit> well it's only useless if you're abusing it in horrible ways
 753 2013-05-26 09:02:38 <Luke-Jr> gwillen: well, we can't very well sit on 1.9 forever!
 754 2013-05-26 09:02:39 <phantomcircuit> i just want to abuse it in mildly bad ways
 755 2013-05-26 09:02:46 donpdonp has joined
 756 2013-05-26 09:03:16 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, bitcoind development, every change is russian roulette
 757 2013-05-26 09:03:17 <phantomcircuit> heh
 758 2013-05-26 09:03:22 <gwillen> Luke-Jr: what are the disadvantages of 1.9?
 759 2013-05-26 09:03:38 <gwillen> given the fragility of the bitcoin protocol, I think we can and should sit on stable versions of dependencies forever
 760 2013-05-26 09:03:39 <Luke-Jr> gwillen: unknown
 761 2013-05-26 09:03:59 <Luke-Jr> gwillen: 1.9 won't be a stable version forever; at some point, it will be an unmaintained version with known bugs
 762 2013-05-26 09:04:12 ielo has joined
 763 2013-05-26 09:04:24 <gwillen> it won't have any more bugs than it has now
 764 2013-05-26 09:04:25 <user741> what so fragile about bitcoin's protocols?
 765 2013-05-26 09:04:34 <gwillen> we'll just have a better idea of what they are :-)
 766 2013-05-26 09:04:35 <Luke-Jr> gwillen: also, we need to identify such rules in any case - alternative clients may very well use something other than leveldb
 767 2013-05-26 09:04:51 <gwillen> well, the party line is that alternative clients dare not exist
 768 2013-05-26 09:04:57 <Luke-Jr> user741: every bitcoin node must agree 100% on what the protocol is
 769 2013-05-26 09:05:02 <gwillen> straying from the party line for a moment, I agree with you
 770 2013-05-26 09:05:04 <Luke-Jr> user741: any deviation makes it blow up
 771 2013-05-26 09:05:05 neozonz has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 772 2013-05-26 09:05:13 <user741> blow up how?
 773 2013-05-26 09:05:20 <Luke-Jr> gwillen: I don't think that party line exists since Satoshi left
 774 2013-05-26 09:05:31 <Luke-Jr> gwillen: everyone today agrees alternative clients are necessary
 775 2013-05-26 09:05:37 <gwillen> user741: if two miners disagree about whether a block is valid, a chain fork will result
 776 2013-05-26 09:05:44 <gwillen> well, _may_ result
 777 2013-05-26 09:05:57 <Luke-Jr> user741: best case, your client gets stuck on an old block
 778 2013-05-26 09:06:05 <gwillen> Luke-Jr: I'm pretty sure I've heard people in here discouraging alternative clients very heavily; I wish I remembered off the top of my head who specifically.
 779 2013-05-26 09:06:07 <Luke-Jr> user741: worst case, someone double-spends without anyone noticing
 780 2013-05-26 09:06:21 <user741> thats not good
 781 2013-05-26 09:06:35 <Luke-Jr> gwillen: only because the CURRENT implementations are immature
 782 2013-05-26 09:06:41 donpdonp has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 783 2013-05-26 09:06:45 <gwillen> Luke-Jr: *nod*
 784 2013-05-26 09:06:52 Neozonz has joined
 785 2013-05-26 09:07:14 <Luke-Jr> which is of course because the Bitcoin protocol is itself immature
 786 2013-05-26 09:07:29 <Luke-Jr> if we had it fully documented with test suites, alt clients would be no problem
 787 2013-05-26 09:08:19 <phantomcircuit> lol
 788 2013-05-26 09:08:27 <phantomcircuit> transaction outputs search by address
 789 2013-05-26 09:08:28 <phantomcircuit>  Total runtime: 2.049 ms
 790 2013-05-26 09:10:05 <phantomcircuit> lianj, ^
 791 2013-05-26 09:10:06 JDuke128 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
 792 2013-05-26 09:10:33 <phantomcircuit> ~8GB of data total
 793 2013-05-26 09:10:47 <gwillen> Luke-Jr: come to think of it, do we even have a standard set of test case
 794 2013-05-26 09:10:49 <gwillen> cases*
 795 2013-05-26 09:10:56 <gwillen> I suppose there are probably some in the repo
 796 2013-05-26 09:11:04 <Luke-Jr> gwillen: bitcoind has *a few*
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 801 2013-05-26 09:19:55 <wumpus> afaik there is some test suite that bluematt runs with the pulltester that is used by both bitcoinj and bitcoind
 802 2013-05-26 09:20:04 donpdonp has joined
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 804 2013-05-26 09:21:39 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: yeah, but it only covers a minority of theoretical tests I think
 805 2013-05-26 09:22:02 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: now that you're up.. any objections to trashing qmake? :P
 806 2013-05-26 09:22:07 <lianj> phantomcircuit: 2000 ms? or 2ms?
 807 2013-05-26 09:22:18 <phantomcircuit> lianj, 2 milliseconds
 808 2013-05-26 09:22:23 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: in favor of what?
 809 2013-05-26 09:22:27 <lianj> phantomcircuit: nice
 810 2013-05-26 09:22:28 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: autotools
 811 2013-05-26 09:22:33 <wumpus> blech
 812 2013-05-26 09:22:48 <phantomcircuit> now to fix this stupid mtgox depth pulling bot
 813 2013-05-26 09:22:57 dfdf has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 814 2013-05-26 09:23:19 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 815 2013-05-26 09:23:27 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: :|
 816 2013-05-26 09:24:02 <wumpus> I like being able to build and add/remove files from qt creator, automake changes everything into crappy m4 scripts generating shell scripts generating other crap :-/
 817 2013-05-26 09:24:38 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: surely there must be some way to teach Qt Creator to work with autotools? :|
 818 2013-05-26 09:27:04 <wumpus> I've also always found automake makes managing the build system a drag, with every small change meaning "run through this whole configre mess again" at least qmake is very fast
 819 2013-05-26 09:27:44 <vazakl> bitcoin rulez
 820 2013-05-26 09:28:18 <wumpus> this is 2013, do we really need to determine a gazillion times whether strlen exists and whether its return value is green or blue or...
 821 2013-05-26 09:28:21 <user741> i love money
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 823 2013-05-26 09:29:07 <jouke> phantomcircuit: what DB are you using?
 824 2013-05-26 09:30:03 <phantomcircuit> postgresql
 825 2013-05-26 09:30:06 <phantomcircuit> AND MAGIC
 826 2013-05-26 09:30:08 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: autotools doesn't need to test strlen
 827 2013-05-26 09:30:10 <phantomcircuit> mostly postgresql
 828 2013-05-26 09:30:15 <Luke-Jr> it only does what we tell it to…
 829 2013-05-26 09:30:21 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: sigh,that what's figuratively speaking
 830 2013-05-26 09:30:26 <wumpus> was*
 831 2013-05-26 09:30:30 <CodeShark> it is unfortunate that autotools works as well as it does - it's really ugly under the hood
 832 2013-05-26 09:30:47 <CodeShark> if it didn't work so well perhaps it would have already been abandoned in favor of something far better
 833 2013-05-26 09:30:52 <wumpus> I'd accept cmake, but autotools, no way
 834 2013-05-26 09:30:57 <Luke-Jr> cmake sucks though!
 835 2013-05-26 09:31:14 <wumpus> let's just keep it at qmake then
 836 2013-05-26 09:31:24 <Luke-Jr> qmake is too hard for people
 837 2013-05-26 09:31:48 <wumpus> not harder than autotools
 838 2013-05-26 09:31:50 <CodeShark> autotools is too hard for programmers :p
 839 2013-05-26 09:32:08 <Luke-Jr> TheUni: ^ guess we'll have to leave the .pro in place, but autotools can still do both I think
 840 2013-05-26 09:32:10 <jouke> phantomcircuit: you used rpc to fill the database right?
 841 2013-05-26 09:32:17 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: sure it is
 842 2013-05-26 09:32:17 <jouke> How long did it take?
 843 2013-05-26 09:32:31 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: and how do you expect to solve the boost chronos bs with qmake anyhow?
 844 2013-05-26 09:32:36 <user741> gnumake
 845 2013-05-26 09:32:42 <wumpus> what is difficult about qmake? it's trivial compared to the auto* beast
 846 2013-05-26 09:33:02 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: BDB_INCLUDE_PATH=/usr/include/db4.8 is much more annoying than having it just autodetected, for example
 847 2013-05-26 09:33:09 <Luke-Jr> --help is nice too
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 849 2013-05-26 09:33:36 <CodeShark> I wrote a few lines of bash which solved that problem
 850 2013-05-26 09:33:37 <CodeShark> :p
 851 2013-05-26 09:33:37 <phantomcircuit> jouke, it's been running for like
 852 2013-05-26 09:33:39 <phantomcircuit> 2 days now
 853 2013-05-26 09:33:49 <phantomcircuit> and i have 8 bitcoind instances being hit in parallel
 854 2013-05-26 09:33:53 <CodeShark> no need for a humongous machine-generated bash script to detect bdb's path
 855 2013-05-26 09:34:03 <wumpus> there's a github request of just a configure script, not autotools based afaik, but does autodetecting and --help convenience
 856 2013-05-26 09:34:13 <phantomcircuit> the problem is the rpc call the actual bitcoind operation is very fast
 857 2013-05-26 09:34:25 <phantomcircuit> but it just doesn't work when concurrent calls happen
 858 2013-05-26 09:34:36 OneMiner has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 859 2013-05-26 09:34:36 <wumpus> CodeShark: exactly
 860 2013-05-26 09:34:56 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: autotools is far easier than manually writing/maintaining configure scripts
 861 2013-05-26 09:35:24 <wumpus> I'm not sure I agree with that
 862 2013-05-26 09:35:42 <wumpus> try *debugging* a problem in autotools scripts
 863 2013-05-26 09:35:50 <Luke-Jr> that's scary.
 864 2013-05-26 09:35:56 <wumpus> through layers and layers of autogenerated crap
 865 2013-05-26 09:35:58 gritball has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 866 2013-05-26 09:36:19 <Luke-Jr> I think it's like Perl for the most part.
 867 2013-05-26 09:36:26 <wumpus> with no validation between steps
 868 2013-05-26 09:36:27 <Luke-Jr> you hate it until you learn it
 869 2013-05-26 09:36:44 dfdf has joined
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 871 2013-05-26 09:37:03 <CodeShark> I tried learning it - I still hate it :p
 872 2013-05-26 09:37:05 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: as for the manual configure script pullreq, AFAIK it *still* doesn't do the *only* point of configure scripts: portability
 873 2013-05-26 09:37:06 <wumpus> oh I've learnt perl, it was my first dynamic language, but then I liked python better and now I hate perl :)
 874 2013-05-26 09:37:42 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: in what way it doesn't?
 875 2013-05-26 09:37:46 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: problem is, there isn't anything better than autotools yet
 876 2013-05-26 09:37:47 wallet43 has joined
 877 2013-05-26 09:37:54 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: AFAIK it only works on Ubuntu and maybe Windows
 878 2013-05-26 09:38:11 <wumpus> which are our main platforms anyway
 879 2013-05-26 09:38:20 <wumpus> it works on all linux I think not just ubuntu :p
 880 2013-05-26 09:38:27 <Luke-Jr> no, just Ubuntu
 881 2013-05-26 09:38:35 <CodeShark> Luke-Jr: it also works on debian and on gentoo
 882 2013-05-26 09:38:35 <wumpus> macosx is a whole different beast, but I suppose it could be added
 883 2013-05-26 09:38:42 <CodeShark> and on os x
 884 2013-05-26 09:38:42 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: not last I tried it
 885 2013-05-26 09:38:58 <CodeShark> ok, it might need a slight tweak for the bdb path for gentoo
 886 2013-05-26 09:39:10 <CodeShark> but at worst it's another couple lines of code
 887 2013-05-26 09:39:19 btcguy has joined
 888 2013-05-26 09:39:22 <dugo> right .. portable .. try compiling on slackware 13.37
 889 2013-05-26 09:39:23 <jouke> phantomcircuit: last week I have been working on doing the same thing, but the rpc-calls really were the bottleneck, so atm I am just working with the blockchainfiles
 890 2013-05-26 09:39:27 <wumpus> and yeah for bsd variants it may require some small changes, but I don't see it as a big issue
 891 2013-05-26 09:39:36 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: and I don't recall seeing any code to handle cross-compiling
 892 2013-05-26 09:39:39 <jouke> Thats pretty fast :>
 893 2013-05-26 09:39:50 <CodeShark> there's no code for cross compiling, luke
 894 2013-05-26 09:40:01 <btcguy> www.justin.tv/bitcointv
 895 2013-05-26 09:40:03 <CodeShark> but most autotool projects don't have any windows compiling options either :p
 896 2013-05-26 09:40:04 konick has joined
 897 2013-05-26 09:40:13 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: autotools just works
 898 2013-05-26 09:40:16 <wumpus> cross compiling is pretty much required
 899 2013-05-26 09:40:18 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: LOL
 900 2013-05-26 09:40:31 <phantomcircuit> jouke, well the reason im using the rpc calls is that i want to piggy back on the verification stuff that bitcoind is doing
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 902 2013-05-26 09:40:36 <Luke-Jr> ./configure --host=i686-pc-mingw32
 903 2013-05-26 09:40:38 <wumpus> my experience with cross compiling autotools projects is not exactly "it just works"
 904 2013-05-26 09:40:39 <Luke-Jr> viola, Windows build
 905 2013-05-26 09:40:51 <phantomcircuit> this is to actually credit real accounts for bitcoin transfers
 906 2013-05-26 09:40:59 <phantomcircuit> so it cant be my own implementation
 907 2013-05-26 09:40:59 <Luke-Jr> voila*
 908 2013-05-26 09:41:09 <btcguy> www.justin.tv/bitcointv for bitcoin related videos and chatting
 909 2013-05-26 09:41:11 <jouke> phantomcircuit: verification stuff?
 910 2013-05-26 09:41:18 <Luke-Jr> btcguy: go away
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 912 2013-05-26 09:41:29 <jouke> The transactions in the blockchainfiles have allready been verified
 913 2013-05-26 09:41:38 <Luke-Jr> lol, that worked
 914 2013-05-26 09:42:52 <phantomcircuit> jouke, not necessarilly
 915 2013-05-26 09:42:55 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: tell that to everyone who does cross-compiling on a regular basis
 916 2013-05-26 09:43:06 <Luke-Jr> like OpenWrt for example :P
 917 2013-05-26 09:43:09 <phantomcircuit> jouke, they have been checked individually but not as a goherent group
 918 2013-05-26 09:43:12 <phantomcircuit> coherent*(\
 919 2013-05-26 09:43:14 <phantomcircuit> derp
 920 2013-05-26 09:43:18 <phantomcircuit> you know what im saying
 921 2013-05-26 09:43:34 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: well once you have the scripts set up it works on a regular basis
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 923 2013-05-26 09:43:53 <wumpus> the problem is if you have to make a change, or something somehow doesn't work as expected
 924 2013-05-26 09:43:58 <jouke> phantomcircuit: not realy
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 926 2013-05-26 09:44:21 <phantomcircuit> jouke, er yes really it contains double spent transactions and chain forks
 927 2013-05-26 09:44:28 <phantomcircuit> all sorts of stuff you dont want
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 929 2013-05-26 09:44:46 <CodeShark> the problem with autotools (or one of them) is that even the slightest, most subtle change in your macros and the whole thing breaks with no sign of where the problem lies
 930 2013-05-26 09:44:58 <wumpus> in any case, I think all build systems suck, so does qmake, but at least it works fast and pretty well for me
 931 2013-05-26 09:45:13 <wumpus> exactly CodeShark
 932 2013-05-26 09:47:32 <wumpus> and what's your problem with cmake Luke-Jr?
 933 2013-05-26 09:47:48 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 934 2013-05-26 09:47:58 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: no --help, unfamiliar :P
 935 2013-05-26 09:48:00 <wumpus> from what I've seen it's basically a more advanced qmake, which can handle things like detecting boost
 936 2013-05-26 09:48:13 <Luke-Jr> and no cross-compiling AFAIK
 937 2013-05-26 09:48:24 <wumpus> it does have help, it even has a gui for configurability (like the kernel)
 938 2013-05-26 09:48:40 <wumpus> and yes it certainly has cross compiling, out of directory build, etc
 939 2013-05-26 09:49:20 <wumpus> and it can generate msvc build files
 940 2013-05-26 09:50:00 <jouke> phantomcircuit: in the blockchain files?
 941 2013-05-26 09:50:10 <phantomcircuit> jouke, yes
 942 2013-05-26 09:50:20 <jouke> afaik not in blk*.dat
 943 2013-05-26 09:50:25 <phantomcircuit> jouke, chain forks end up in those files
 944 2013-05-26 09:50:38 <phantomcircuit> nothing ever gets deleted from them
 945 2013-05-26 09:50:46 * lianj creates a ordered bootstrap.dat every two weeks :P
 946 2013-05-26 09:51:15 <phantomcircuit> lianj, it's easier to distribute the smaller files
 947 2013-05-26 09:51:34 <lianj> true
 948 2013-05-26 09:51:52 <konick> would anyone who is familiar with using bitcoind with a webserver like to skype? i have a few small questions
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 953 2013-05-26 09:59:33 <jouke> lianj: what files do you use to create that bootstrap? Before parsing blk-files I first have to do something with the rev-files?
 954 2013-05-26 09:59:42 <jouke> phantomcircuit: why didn't you use Abe btw?
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 957 2013-05-26 10:00:33 <phantomcircuit> jouke, im only interested in a fairly small subset of the information
 958 2013-05-26 10:00:42 <phantomcircuit> to make the database faster i only have that information
 959 2013-05-26 10:01:12 <CodeShark> phantomcircuit, I wrote an SQL block chain database that uses the p2p protocol
 960 2013-05-26 10:01:13 <phantomcircuit> it means that my final database size shouldn't be more than 15GB
 961 2013-05-26 10:01:20 <CodeShark> I'm thinking of opensourcing it
 962 2013-05-26 10:01:34 <phantomcircuit> and im using hex strings instead of binary fields
 963 2013-05-26 10:01:43 <phantomcircuit> so i could probably cut that in half
 964 2013-05-26 10:01:44 <phantomcircuit> (or more)
 965 2013-05-26 10:01:46 <CodeShark> abe uses the bitcoind block chain files directly - and doesn't handle unconfirmed (mempool)transactions
 966 2013-05-26 10:02:09 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, yeah i actually did that a long time ago
 967 2013-05-26 10:02:10 <phantomcircuit> like
 968 2013-05-26 10:02:27 <phantomcircuit> 2 years ago
 969 2013-05-26 10:02:30 <phantomcircuit> https://github.com/phantomcircuit/bitcoin-alt
 970 2013-05-26 10:04:00 <CodeShark> oh, wow - does it also have a script interpreter? :)
 971 2013-05-26 10:04:01 garrettr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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 973 2013-05-26 10:05:00 <CodeShark> it takes a lot more lines of code to do the same thing in C++ :p
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 975 2013-05-26 10:06:16 <jouke> CodeShark: it does
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 977 2013-05-26 10:07:48 <CodeShark> I've been mostly relying on bitcoind to perform verification for the apps I've worked on
 978 2013-05-26 10:07:58 <CodeShark> seems silly to duplicate that code
 979 2013-05-26 10:08:10 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: in any case, I DO see the advantage of using the same build system for both bitcoin-qt and bitcoind, bitcoind's build system with makefiles per os is even more brittle rignt now
 980 2013-05-26 10:08:17 <CodeShark> and given it's the reference implementation, seems like it's safest to use it as the verification agent
 981 2013-05-26 10:10:44 <CodeShark> I'd love to see bitcoind become a streamlined verification/relay agent with a higher level streaming API
 982 2013-05-26 10:10:52 <jouke> regarding script interpreting. There aren't really a lot of strange scripts out there in the blockchain.
 983 2013-05-26 10:11:19 konick has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
 984 2013-05-26 10:11:33 <CodeShark> and I'd love to see bitcoin-qt become an SPV wallet that can connect to a trusted instance of bitcoind if desired
 985 2013-05-26 10:11:42 <lianj> jouke: on testnet there are
 986 2013-05-26 10:12:48 <jouke> lianj: I guess. I was just expecting more on the main net
 987 2013-05-26 10:13:03 <CodeShark> the p2p protocol is too low level for most application development - and the RPC is too dumbed down
 988 2013-05-26 10:13:36 <lianj> jouke: its due to the non-standard relay thing that mainnet is relatively cleanish
 989 2013-05-26 10:14:09 <jouke> I know of the relay thing, yet I was expecting more.
 990 2013-05-26 10:14:42 <lianj> add some :P
 991 2013-05-26 10:15:17 <jouke> neh
 992 2013-05-26 10:16:20 <jouke> can you do an op_drop in a p2sh script?
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 996 2013-05-26 10:23:45 <CodeShark> if I weren't so tired I'd look through the source and answer that question :p
 997 2013-05-26 10:24:44 <lianj> jouke: why not?
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 999 2013-05-26 10:25:26 <CodeShark> there's nothing about BIP0016 that prevents an op_drop from my understanding
1000 2013-05-26 10:26:03 <CodeShark> but again, the reference is the implementation itself
1001 2013-05-26 10:26:10 <phantomcircuit> man
1002 2013-05-26 10:26:10 <CodeShark> not the BIP document
1003 2013-05-26 10:26:23 <phantomcircuit> lianj, it takes 45 ms to unpickle the mtgox orderbook
1004 2013-05-26 10:26:29 <phantomcircuit> for the partial depth
1005 2013-05-26 10:26:39 <phantomcircuit> i dont even want to see how long it takes for the full depth
1006 2013-05-26 10:26:53 <CodeShark> 45ms to do what?!?!
1007 2013-05-26 10:27:02 <CodeShark> unpickle? lol
1008 2013-05-26 10:27:22 <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, http://docs.python.org/2/library/pickle.html
1009 2013-05-26 10:28:10 <CodeShark> you mean serialization and deserialization?
1010 2013-05-26 10:28:20 <jouke> well, in bip16 there is this line: " Validation fails if there are any operations other than "push data" operations in the scriptSig. "
1011 2013-05-26 10:28:24 <phantomcircuit> it's a serialize/deserialize specific to python
1012 2013-05-26 10:28:50 <CodeShark> oh, I forgot about that one, jouke :)
1013 2013-05-26 10:29:04 <jouke> But I don't know if that references to the scriptsig or the scriptsigscript
1014 2013-05-26 10:29:13 <CodeShark> use the source :p
1015 2013-05-26 10:29:14 <jouke> or whatever you name the script to redeem
1016 2013-05-26 10:30:10 <CodeShark> so phantomcircuit, you're telling me that python takes 45ms to deserialize the mtgox json orderbook?
1017 2013-05-26 10:30:19 <warren> wumpus: +1 on same build sysstem
1018 2013-05-26 10:30:27 <phantomcircuit> i have no idea how long it takes in json
1019 2013-05-26 10:30:34 <phantomcircuit> but once i've converted from json
1020 2013-05-26 10:30:38 <phantomcircuit> pickled (serialized)
1021 2013-05-26 10:30:42 <phantomcircuit> put into memcached
1022 2013-05-26 10:30:54 <wumpus> warren: yeah, it'd be useful, even if it has to be autotools... :( @luke-jr
1023 2013-05-26 10:30:54 <phantomcircuit> and then unpickled
1024 2013-05-26 10:31:02 <phantomcircuit> the unpickle takes 45ms
1025 2013-05-26 10:31:29 <CodeShark> have you tried cPickle? :)
1026 2013-05-26 10:31:37 <phantomcircuit> im using cPickle
1027 2013-05-26 10:32:18 <warren> BTW, anyone know off hand where in the code is the amount of free KB per block?
1028 2013-05-26 10:32:40 <CodeShark> probably somewhere in main.cpp :p
1029 2013-05-26 10:33:33 <warren> wumpus: autotools is helpful if you want to be compatible with whatever random version of libraries are in a distro.  but in the case of bitcoin it seems dangerous to support arbitrary versions of external libs...
1030 2013-05-26 10:33:40 <phantomcircuit> actually i think that's true
1031 2013-05-26 10:33:45 <wumpus> warren: CreateNewBlock
1032 2013-05-26 10:33:46 <phantomcircuit> check the top of main.cpp
1033 2013-05-26 10:33:50 <jouke> hmm, can't I just open the chainstate leveldbthing and query that?
1034 2013-05-26 10:34:12 <phantomcircuit> jouke, not if bitcoind is running
1035 2013-05-26 10:34:16 <jouke> instead of going trough al blocks
1036 2013-05-26 10:34:22 <jouke> phantomcircuit: hmmm
1037 2013-05-26 10:34:23 <phantomcircuit> leveldb doesn't allow concurrent access
1038 2013-05-26 10:34:34 <jouke> ok, thats a shame.
1039 2013-05-26 10:35:01 <jouke> II'll have to keep track of the blocks in that case.
1040 2013-05-26 10:35:25 <warren> wumpus: I'm having strange problems with boost in Fedora 18
1041 2013-05-26 10:35:55 <jouke> or, maybe I should go back to my initial script that just uses the RPC as well.
1042 2013-05-26 10:36:20 <jouke> I didn't want to wait 3 days to load the database, so I spent 5 days on working on something else >_<
1043 2013-05-26 10:36:30 <jouke> So it would load faster..
1044 2013-05-26 10:36:33 <phantomcircuit> lol
1045 2013-05-26 10:36:38 <phantomcircuit> jouke, that's almost what i did
1046 2013-05-26 10:36:42 <phantomcircuit> but then i decided against it
1047 2013-05-26 10:36:55 <jouke> A well, no I know how blocks "work".
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1049 2013-05-26 10:38:48 <CodeShark> what are you trying to do, jouke?
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1072 2013-05-26 11:26:25 <vazakl> coin rain a comin'
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1089 2013-05-26 12:14:09 <jouke> CodeShark: fill a database with interpreted scripts (map bitcoin-addresses to transactions).
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1122 2013-05-26 12:50:18 <warren>             // Transaction fee required depends on block size
1123 2013-05-26 12:50:18 <warren>             bool fAllowFree = (nBlockSize + nTxSize < 4000 || CTransaction::AllowFree(dPriority));
1124 2013-05-26 12:50:18 <warren>             int64 nMinFee = tx.GetMinFee(nBlockSize, fAllowFree, GMF_BLOCK);
1125 2013-05-26 12:50:29 <warren> What is the git command to figure out when/why this was removed?
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1127 2013-05-26 13:02:34 <warren> git log -S !
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1154 2013-05-26 13:32:07 <jgm> jouke: I tweaked blockparser to dump more detailed information in a CSV format if that's useful to you.  The real trick is putting it in to a database in a useful format, of course
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1157 2013-05-26 13:35:10 <jouke> jgm: hmmm, I'll look into that.
1158 2013-05-26 13:36:12 <jgm> I use it to generate the charts at http://charts.bconomy.com/  You could write something to update the database as blocks come in using -blocknotify, I just haven't bothered as a daily update is fine for my purposes
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1172 2013-05-26 13:54:53 <jonass> when sending a inventory informing about a new tx, the hash of the inv should be the tx-hash? I just recognized, that the hash i get by getdata from other nodes is different than the hash i send in my inv
1173 2013-05-26 13:55:05 <bitanarchy> Does multibit connect to the bitcoin network to download its headers?
1174 2013-05-26 13:55:41 <jonass> bitanarchy, yes. and it also downloads full blocks but only if block.time > yourOldestPrivateKeyTimestamp.
1175 2013-05-26 13:56:45 <bitanarchy> jonass: does that mean that it takes multibit the same amount of time to download the bloackchain as the satishi client?
1176 2013-05-26 13:58:53 <pizzacat> bitanarchy, if you have the genisis block private key.. yes
1177 2013-05-26 13:58:59 <pizzacat> so probably a lot shorter
1178 2013-05-26 13:59:52 <bitanarchy> jonass: how come then that the satoshi client always takes so long to update, while multibit is really fast
1179 2013-05-26 14:00:44 <bitanarchy> pizzacat: *
1180 2013-05-26 14:01:15 <jonass> bitanarchy multibit is a SPV client (google it), it's less secure ("generly spoken") and it uses bloom filters.
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1185 2013-05-26 14:07:58 <BlueMatt> bitanarchy: no, not even close
1186 2013-05-26 14:08:16 <BlueMatt> bitanarchy: most of the satoshi client's download time is not network-limited
1187 2013-05-26 14:09:13 <BlueMatt> multibit doesnt keep a full utxo db nor does it check sigs of all the txn it sees, thus it would be network limited if it were to download using full blocks
1188 2013-05-26 14:09:20 <BlueMatt> bitanarchy: but, it also doesnt even do that
1189 2013-05-26 14:09:33 <BlueMatt> it uses bloom filters to only get the parts of blocks that it cares about
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1193 2013-05-26 14:15:45 <jonass> BlueMatt: Multibit: is it because of the bloomfilters that i have sometimes a wrong calculated balance?
1194 2013-05-26 14:16:08 <BlueMatt> no
1195 2013-05-26 14:16:12 <jonass> maybe i shutdown the client (force quit) during a incomming tx?
1196 2013-05-26 14:17:33 <BlueMatt> I dont know, but its not because of bloom filters unless theres a bug in the implementation
1197 2013-05-26 14:18:18 <bitanarchy> where does android bitcoin wallet get its blockchain from? also from the network like multibit?
1198 2013-05-26 14:18:24 <BlueMatt> yes
1199 2013-05-26 14:20:03 <bitanarchy> does any thin client support offline signing jet?
1200 2013-05-26 14:20:28 <BlueMatt> afaik like all clients support it
1201 2013-05-26 14:22:01 <bitanarchy> offline signing means that you sign a transaction on an offline computer then copy the signed transaction to an online computer and transmit it to the network.... then check with your watching only wallet on the online computer for confirmations
1202 2013-05-26 14:22:18 <BlueMatt> yes, Im aware of what it means
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1204 2013-05-26 14:22:39 <bitanarchy> only satoshi + armory supports this ... as far as i know
1205 2013-05-26 14:23:04 <BlueMatt> in terms of just creating a transaction and signing it while offline, every client that does have specific code to block it should...
1206 2013-05-26 14:23:24 <BlueMatt> whether you can export it or not...
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1211 2013-05-26 14:29:36 <bitanarchy> first of all you need deterministic wallets to support watching only wallets... multibit and satoshi client dont support that
1212 2013-05-26 14:30:25 <BlueMatt> no you dont...
1213 2013-05-26 14:30:46 <BlueMatt> watch-only wallet in satoshi client? encrypt the keys and throw away the passphrase
1214 2013-05-26 14:30:47 <BlueMatt> done
1215 2013-05-26 14:31:09 <BlueMatt> with -keypool=10000 first
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1218 2013-05-26 14:33:13 <bitanarchy> BlueMatt: ok... thanks
1219 2013-05-26 14:34:10 <bitanarchy> BlueMatt: but can you sign a transaction to a file with the satoshi client? and load and send it?
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1224 2013-05-26 14:36:47 <BlueMatt> sure, the raw tx api lets you do all kinds of fancy things
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1226 2013-05-26 14:37:05 <BlueMatt> (including simple things like just getting a raw tx and putting it in mempool)
1227 2013-05-26 14:39:56 <michagogo> Though if doing *anything* with raw transaction creation, you must be very very careful not to pay out huge fees
1228 2013-05-26 14:40:23 <BlueMatt> you can create the txn using regular wallet gui and then just dump them using raw tx
1229 2013-05-26 14:41:05 <michagogo> BlueMatt: Not on a watch-only wallet
1230 2013-05-26 14:41:29 <BlueMatt> you cant do /anything/ on a watch-only wallet...
1231 2013-05-26 14:41:39 <michagogo> I think bitanarchy was asking about using an online, watch-only client to craft a transaction and transfer it to an offline client to sign
1232 2013-05-26 14:41:45 <michagogo> The way you can do with Armory
1233 2013-05-26 14:41:57 <michagogo> BlueMatt: Exactly
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1235 2013-05-26 14:42:09 <bitanarchy> BlueMatt: Does the satoshi client only encrypt the private keys in the wallet?
1236 2013-05-26 14:42:15 <michagogo> bitanarchy: Yes
1237 2013-05-26 14:42:39 <BlueMatt> ahh, well then you have to use the full raw txn api, though, really I dont know how many places it would be particularly useful
1238 2013-05-26 14:42:55 <BlueMatt> its probably easier to just keep track of the dest address and move that to your offline machine
1239 2013-05-26 14:44:49 <michagogo> BTW, how come the topic says "| Latest version: 0.8.2rc |" and doesn't specify rc3?
1240 2013-05-26 14:46:17 <BlueMatt> it says 0.8.2rc not 0.8.2rc2
1241 2013-05-26 14:46:27 <BlueMatt> latest version is 0.8.2 rc(s)
1242 2013-05-26 14:46:35 <michagogo> BlueMatt: Yeah, I know
1243 2013-05-26 14:46:42 <michagogo> But I mean, why not specify which rc
1244 2013-05-26 14:46:52 <BlueMatt> because...effort?
1245 2013-05-26 14:46:52 <michagogo> So if you're on rc1, you know that rc3 exists to upgrade to
1246 2013-05-26 14:47:20 <michagogo> Also: Interesting, looks like the "this is a prerelease" banner was removed
1247 2013-05-26 14:47:53 <BlueMatt> yea, gavin merged the 0.8.2 version commit before rcs were done
1248 2013-05-26 14:48:22 <michagogo> Hmm? The About window does say rc3
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1299 2013-05-26 16:19:46 <sipa> phantomcircuit: i wrote that once yes, but i didn't like the code
1300 2013-05-26 16:20:03 <sipa> phantomcircuit: don't think it's on github
1301 2013-05-26 16:22:28 gjj has joined
1302 2013-05-26 16:23:52 <sipa> wumpus: dang... now finally someone shows up who is willing to make a working autotools env, including for osx and crosscompiling, and is ready to adapt gitian to use it, and then you don't like it :(
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1304 2013-05-26 16:24:21 <sipa> i don't care about build systems and i don't know anything about thwm
1305 2013-05-26 16:24:33 <sipa> but anything is better than the mess we have now
1306 2013-05-26 16:24:57 <sipa> and yes, for qt it is vetter because of cmake, but it's also full if hacks
1307 2013-05-26 16:25:03 <sipa> *qmake
1308 2013-05-26 16:25:33 <sipa> and it's completely separate from the bitcoind builds
1309 2013-05-26 16:26:05 <sipa> so if you prefer qmake, fine by me... but could we hace a bitcoind build system unified with it, please?
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1318 2013-05-26 16:32:22 <helo> qmake to build non-qt stuff?
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1321 2013-05-26 16:34:06 <sipa> helo: i don't care
1322 2013-05-26 16:34:38 <helo> it would work just fine, it's just unconventional
1323 2013-05-26 16:35:09 <sipa> helo: i'm just saying that having a unified build system is higher priority for me than any particular qualiy or convenience a build system offers
1324 2013-05-26 16:35:18 <helo> the opposite (building qt apps with cmake) i don' tthink is possible. so if the goal is to only use one of the two, it'll have to be qmake
1325 2013-05-26 16:35:43 <sipa> who is talking about cmake?
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1327 2013-05-26 16:36:35 <helo> oh, that was a typo that you corrected. my mistake
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1330 2013-05-26 16:38:13 <helo> qmake is only a thing because of qt's moc signal/slot code translation stuff
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1341 2013-05-26 16:48:53 <wumpus> sipa: I don't like it, but I'm not really against it either
1342 2013-05-26 16:49:47 <wumpus> sipa: and it wasn't clear to me that he was willing to make it
1343 2013-05-26 16:50:17 <wumpus> I'd just prefer cmake
1344 2013-05-26 16:50:48 <wumpus> but getting bitcoin-qt and bitcoind on one build system, no matter which one, is fine with me really
1345 2013-05-26 16:51:16 <sipa> ok
1346 2013-05-26 16:51:42 <sipa> we'll have to see of course how far he gets and howbusable it is
1347 2013-05-26 16:52:05 <sipa> though he had something against cmake :p
1348 2013-05-26 16:52:11 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: so don't get me wrong, don't let my hate of autotools get in the way of making something useful
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1360 2013-05-26 16:59:40 <bitanarchy> I am having problems torifying my bitcoin client.... i get no connections
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1364 2013-05-26 17:02:11 <sipa> bitanarchy: did you use -externalip to list your hidden service address?
1365 2013-05-26 17:02:32 <sipa> did you configure a port forwarding in tor to bitcoin?
1366 2013-05-26 17:02:38 <sipa> is tor connected?
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1368 2013-05-26 17:02:56 <bitanarchy> i am on tor now
1369 2013-05-26 17:03:11 <bitanarchy> my irc client uses tor
1370 2013-05-26 17:03:42 <sipa> ok, how about my other two questions?
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1372 2013-05-26 17:04:01 <bitanarchy> i did not explicitly configure tor to bitcoin in vidalia.... have to see
1373 2013-05-26 17:04:15 <sipa> then it won't work
1374 2013-05-26 17:04:21 <sipa> read doc/tor.txt
1375 2013-05-26 17:04:49 <sipa> you need to configure both tor and bitcoin explicitly
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1380 2013-05-26 17:10:07 <bitanarchy> sipa: why is --externalip required?
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1384 2013-05-26 17:13:03 <Tril>  bitanarchy: for inbound connections
1385 2013-05-26 17:14:03 <etotheipi_> sipa: I just had a random thought... we have to store the entire transaction in our DB if any of the TxOuts are unspent, correct?
1386 2013-05-26 17:14:26 <etotheipi_> so we have to store the UTXO list *and* all the transactions that have 1+ UTXO
1387 2013-05-26 17:14:47 <sipa> bitanarchy: bitcoin has no way of knowing by which address it is publically reafhabl
1388 2013-05-26 17:14:56 <sipa> bitanarchy: reachable otherwise
1389 2013-05-26 17:15:04 <sipa> etotheipi_: huh?
1390 2013-05-26 17:15:12 <etotheipi_> sipa: what do we store for pure pruning?
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1392 2013-05-26 17:15:29 <etotheipi_> we can't *just* store the UTXOs, we have to store all the Tx in which those UTXO exist, right?
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1394 2013-05-26 17:15:47 <sipa> etotheipi_: unspent outputs + version, height, coinbaseornot for every not entirely spent transaction
1395 2013-05-26 17:16:08 <sipa> why do you need the full transaction?
1396 2013-05-26 17:16:19 <etotheipi_> sipa: I thought we needed to be able to verify the hash of the transaction
1397 2013-05-26 17:16:27 <sipa> why?
1398 2013-05-26 17:16:34 <etotheipi_> sipa: not sure, that's why I'm asking
1399 2013-05-26 17:16:37 <sipa> it's validated data
1400 2013-05-26 17:16:39 <etotheipi_> I haven't thought about it as much as you
1401 2013-05-26 17:17:08 <etotheipi_> sipa: you mean, because we held it at one point
1402 2013-05-26 17:17:09 <etotheipi_> ?
1403 2013-05-26 17:17:12 <sipa> you can't use it anymore to give others transactions which they request
1404 2013-05-26 17:17:32 <sipa> but that's the only reason why you'd need to prove that it is correct
1405 2013-05-26 17:17:43 <sipa> for yourself, you just kbow
1406 2013-05-26 17:17:47 <sipa> know
1407 2013-05-26 17:17:50 <jaakkos> that's actually something i was always wondering about satoshi's paper
1408 2013-05-26 17:17:50 <etotheipi_> sipa: understood
1409 2013-05-26 17:18:03 <jaakkos> why put the merkle tree stuff to 'reclaiming disk space'...
1410 2013-05-26 17:18:15 <jaakkos> (it didn't seem to be about SPV)
1411 2013-05-26 17:18:19 <etotheipi_> sipa: so we have no intention of being able to serve transactions
1412 2013-05-26 17:18:19 <sipa> the pruning model we're heading for is very different from the one proposed by satoshi
1413 2013-05-26 17:18:36 <sipa> etotheipi_: we never did serve arbitrary transactions
1414 2013-05-26 17:18:44 <jaakkos> because, you don't need the merkle branch for the utxo txs because they are already validated.
1415 2013-05-26 17:18:46 <etotheipi_> sipa: hmm... good point
1416 2013-05-26 17:18:56 <sipa> intentionally by satoshi, i believe
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1418 2013-05-26 17:19:15 <sipa> jaakkos: indeed; it's not about reclaiming disk space
1419 2013-05-26 17:19:28 <sipa> it's about low cost correctness proofs
1420 2013-05-26 17:19:52 <etotheipi_> okay, well it's not all that important, then... but I had the thought that if we needed to verify hashes, couldn't we store the first-hash mid-state for the tx up to the numTxOut?
1421 2013-05-26 17:20:23 <sipa> verify which hashes?
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1423 2013-05-26 17:20:43 <sipa> ah txids
1424 2013-05-26 17:20:51 <etotheipi_> sipa: I'm thinking more in a world where everyone is pruned, and nodes are bootstrapping UTXO sets from each other
1425 2013-05-26 17:21:21 <sipa> then there are no transactions to verify anymore
1426 2013-05-26 17:21:29 <sipa> expect new ones
1427 2013-05-26 17:21:43 <etotheipi_> sipa: there are, though, how do you verify your downloaded UTXO set?
1428 2013-05-26 17:22:07 <etotheipi_> don't you *have* to be able to prove to a node that a tx exists and give it a valid merkle branch?
1429 2013-05-26 17:22:14 <sipa> etotheipi_: because it is committed via your fancy merkle tree to the coinbase
1430 2013-05-26 17:22:20 <etotheipi_> (if they're not going to replay the whole blockchain)
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1432 2013-05-26 17:22:39 <etotheipi_> sipa: are you talking about expanding the protocol?
1433 2013-05-26 17:22:46 <sipa> you cannot prove correctness of the utxo set without fully rebuilding it
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1435 2013-05-26 17:22:57 <sipa> that's just theoretically impossible
1436 2013-05-26 17:23:10 <sipa> any state is a potential correct set of utxos
1437 2013-05-26 17:23:39 <sipa> so you are inevitably reducing your security model to SPV-level trust in history
1438 2013-05-26 17:25:22 <sipa> and that may or may not be acceptable
1439 2013-05-26 17:25:46 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1440 2013-05-26 17:25:49 <gmaxwell> you can, however, demonstrate _incorrectness_ of it cheaply.
1441 2013-05-26 17:25:54 chorao has joined
1442 2013-05-26 17:26:20 gjj_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1443 2013-05-26 17:26:23 <sipa> but evem if you go to something in between, and maintain all not-fully spent transactions in between with their merkle paths
1444 2013-05-26 17:26:31 <etotheipi_> okay, so it's not as useful as I thought.... I was envisioning that we'd need to be able to prove txIDs even on pruned DB
1445 2013-05-26 17:27:03 <sipa> what do you gain? you'll still have to rely on the comitted and unvalidatable utxo set to know outputs aren't yet spent
1446 2013-05-26 17:27:23 <etotheipi_> so then my question was, am I right?  I don't know enough about the internals of hashing... but isn't the hash a rolling accumulated
1447 2013-05-26 17:27:40 owowo has joined
1448 2013-05-26 17:28:03 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: Over transactions? It's a hash tree, specfically to enable random access.
1449 2013-05-26 17:28:04 <etotheipi_> right, spentness is a problem without a fancy data structure like mine
1450 2013-05-26 17:28:33 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: I had the thought that you can produce the midstate of the first hash of the tx, up until the txOut list
1451 2013-05-26 17:28:45 <etotheipi_> essentially compressing all the TxIns to 32 bytes
1452 2013-05-26 17:29:07 <etotheipi_> just curious if I actually understand sha256 well enough
1453 2013-05-26 17:29:23 <gmaxwell> oh you mean while hashing a single transaction!
1454 2013-05-26 17:29:29 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: yes
1455 2013-05-26 17:29:56 <etotheipi_> since TxIns don't matter in the long run, you could store just the TxOuts, and the first-hash midstate to that point (or the closest 32-byte chunk)
1456 2013-05-26 17:30:19 <etotheipi_> but this assumes usefulness for being able to produce a txid
1457 2013-05-26 17:30:45 <sipa> interesting
1458 2013-05-26 17:30:50 <gmaxwell> Yes, you can do that. Right but I don't know why that would be useful however.
1459 2013-05-26 17:30:58 danwalton has joined
1460 2013-05-26 17:31:06 <sipa> but you cannot prove your transaction is valid
1461 2013-05-26 17:31:20 <sipa> it just proves the link between a txid and the outputs
1462 2013-05-26 17:31:20 <etotheipi_> I guess I haven't thought about it enough, but for some reason I assumed that it was useful
1463 2013-05-26 17:31:27 <gmaxwell> (p2pool has used midstate like that for a long time)
1464 2013-05-26 17:31:28 <etotheipi_> sipa:  yes... I thought that was useful
1465 2013-05-26 17:31:35 <sipa> maybe it is
1466 2013-05-26 17:32:11 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1467 2013-05-26 17:32:12 <gmaxwell> etotheipi_: somewhere I sketched out an alternative transaction form that puts all the transaction parts into a hashtree, so you could selectively prune any part of a transaction.
1468 2013-05-26 17:32:21 <sipa> i hadn't thought about that possibility
1469 2013-05-26 17:32:29 <etotheipi_> gmaxwell: even better!
1470 2013-05-26 17:32:35 <etotheipi_> except for the hardfork
1471 2013-05-26 17:32:45 <sipa> it's hash trees all the way down
1472 2013-05-26 17:32:59 <sipa> etotheipi_: did you see i posted test vectors for bip32?
1473 2013-05-26 17:33:05 <etotheipi_> sipa: yeah
1474 2013-05-26 17:33:06 <etotheipi_> thanks
1475 2013-05-26 17:33:11 <gmaxwell> My idea was actually to use it to prune scriptsigs... and basically have two kinds of transactions in the blockchain, high and low security ones.
1476 2013-05-26 17:33:12 <etotheipi_> I'm disappointed I might fall behind in implementing it
1477 2013-05-26 17:33:31 <etotheipi_> I mean, I can implement it, but I won't have a working wallet with it for a month or two
1478 2013-05-26 17:33:45 <etotheipi_> probably 2
1479 2013-05-26 17:34:06 <etotheipi_> times (and priorities) are a little hectic in Armory land :-\
1480 2013-05-26 17:34:18 <sipa> just wondered whether you thought they are sufficient
1481 2013-05-26 17:34:28 <etotheipi_> sipa: hold on, I'll look
1482 2013-05-26 17:34:36 <sipa> well, another month ir two won't hurt :p
1483 2013-05-26 17:34:56 <Scrat> forgive me since I can't scroll up, etotheipi_ are you adding a lite mode to armory?
1484 2013-05-26 17:35:12 <etotheipi_> Scrat: long -term, yes
1485 2013-05-26 17:35:20 <etotheipi_> short-term... probably not
1486 2013-05-26 17:35:41 <sipa> define lite?
1487 2013-05-26 17:35:56 ngc0202 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1488 2013-05-26 17:36:00 <etotheipi_> sipa: not actually sure yet... whether I want to have a real SPV-version, or server-based (like Electrum)
1489 2013-05-26 17:36:19 <etotheipi_> but I need *something* lite-r
1490 2013-05-26 17:36:20 <sipa> please please do SPV :)
1491 2013-05-26 17:36:58 <Scrat> isn't there a 3rd option? pruned UXTO
1492 2013-05-26 17:36:59 shesek has joined
1493 2013-05-26 17:37:16 <sipa> that implies it's fully validating
1494 2013-05-26 17:37:22 <etotheipi_> Scrat: that would certainly be liter than it is now, but not in the long-term
1495 2013-05-26 17:37:37 <etotheipi_> I mean, still liter in the long-term, but not "lite" in the long term
1496 2013-05-26 17:37:48 <sipa> which it technically not something it does (by itself) now
1497 2013-05-26 17:38:23 <etotheipi_> although, I really enjoy not having to store any tx ledger/history anywhere
1498 2013-05-26 17:38:32 <etotheipi_> but I have to get over that, eventually :)
1499 2013-05-26 17:38:39 <sipa> well
1500 2013-05-26 17:39:00 ngc0202 has joined
1501 2013-05-26 17:39:21 <sipa> i think the "the blockchain is your wallet" idea is misguided, and it hurts scalabiloty of the nodes you'll depend on to index it for you
1502 2013-05-26 17:40:02 <sipa> _except_ with a mandatory reiner tree committed to the block chain :)
1503 2013-05-26 17:40:10 <amiller> once you go full-validating-merkleutxo you'll never need to store any big state again, hooray
1504 2013-05-26 17:40:21 <etotheipi_> :)
1505 2013-05-26 17:40:30 <etotheipi_> it's disappointing that Maaku's name is so long
1506 2013-05-26 17:40:48 <etotheipi_> "Reiner-Friedenbach tree" is really a mouthful
1507 2013-05-26 17:40:54 <gwillen> hahaha
1508 2013-05-26 17:40:56 <sipa> about that
1509 2013-05-26 17:41:02 <etotheipi_> and very german
1510 2013-05-26 17:41:03 <gmaxwell> amiller: yea, isn't it great that bandwidth is totally costless and growing faster than cpu power or storage!
1511 2013-05-26 17:41:04 <gwillen> you could just call it an RF tree
1512 2013-05-26 17:41:11 <gwillen> that would be easier
1513 2013-05-26 17:41:18 <sipa> what ia the plan for linking the address-based tree and txid-based one?
1514 2013-05-26 17:41:52 <amiller> just have both it's easy
1515 2013-05-26 17:42:08 <sipa> "store ALL the trees!"
1516 2013-05-26 17:42:12 <amiller> maybe give keys in each a prefix
1517 2013-05-26 17:42:13 <etotheipi_> sipa: good question... and a good one for maaku, who is now devoted his life to it
1518 2013-05-26 17:42:34 <sipa> one thing i thought about was actually having 3 trees
1519 2013-05-26 17:43:02 <jaakkos> is it on the todo list to have some kind of event subscription in bitcoind, eg. for listening to incoming transactions?
1520 2013-05-26 17:43:19 <jaakkos> does everyone write their own implementation right now?
1521 2013-05-26 17:43:19 <sipa> first by defining a txnum: the sequential number of a transaction in the block chain
1522 2013-05-26 17:43:34 <sipa> then having a txnum -> utxos tree
1523 2013-05-26 17:43:44 <sipa> and then two separate trees
1524 2013-05-26 17:43:53 <sipa> txid -> txnum
1525 2013-05-26 17:43:55 <sipa> and
1526 2013-05-26 17:44:10 <michagogo> jaakkos: Like walletnotify?
1527 2013-05-26 17:44:10 <sipa> scripthash -> txnums
1528 2013-05-26 17:44:34 <sipa> reason is that txnums will be significantly smaller than txids
1529 2013-05-26 17:44:48 Jasmin68k has joined
1530 2013-05-26 17:45:01 <sipa> 4 bytes for the next few years probably
1531 2013-05-26 17:45:15 <jaakkos> michagogo: oh, there is that
1532 2013-05-26 17:45:22 <sipa> while 32 bytes is already close to the size of the utxos itself
1533 2013-05-26 17:45:50 Subo1978 has joined
1534 2013-05-26 17:45:53 <sipa> jaakkos: since 0.8.2 afaik
1535 2013-05-26 17:46:17 <gmaxwell> sipa: if txnum is ever compariable in size to the txid you'd have problems with collisions. :) So I think it's safe to say that its always much smaller.
1536 2013-05-26 17:47:04 <sipa> right now
1537 2013-05-26 17:47:13 <donpdonp> is there a way to query bitcoind/litecoind to determine which one is which?
1538 2013-05-26 17:47:16 metabyte_ is now known as metabyte
1539 2013-05-26 17:47:28 <jaakkos> sipa: ok
1540 2013-05-26 17:47:42 <sipa> it may actually be the case that just duplicating the utxos is smaller than introducing an extra merkleized tree
1541 2013-05-26 17:47:54 <sipa> depends on the degree of address reuse i think
1542 2013-05-26 17:48:15 <gmaxwell> Things that encourage address reuse = :(
1543 2013-05-26 17:48:30 <donpdonp> none of the jsonrpc calls seem to establish which currency is in use by that daemon
1544 2013-05-26 17:48:48 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
1545 2013-05-26 17:48:55 <BlueMatt> donpdonp: read the topic: "This is not LTC support"
1546 2013-05-26 17:49:08 <donpdonp> BlueMatt: im not asking for ltc support :)
1547 2013-05-26 17:50:15 <michagogo> donpdonp: Well, you could try creating a transaction or something and seeing what the version byte is
1548 2013-05-26 17:50:19 <donpdonp> it'd be a useful new field for the 'getinfo' call to have currency: 'btc' or similar
1549 2013-05-26 17:50:32 <SomeoneWeird> yeah um no
1550 2013-05-26 17:50:36 <sipa> well without altcoins-that-only-change-a-few-constants, nobody would consider a way for distinguishing them meaningful...
1551 2013-05-26 17:50:41 <donpdonp> michagogo: nod. i was hoping for something more light-weight
1552 2013-05-26 17:50:53 <mhanne> donpdonp: then altcoins would just copy that and neglect to change it :p
1553 2013-05-26 17:50:59 <sipa> haha
1554 2013-05-26 17:51:04 <donpdonp> mhanne: yikes.
1555 2013-05-26 17:51:07 gjj has joined
1556 2013-05-26 17:51:57 <donpdonp> okay well im just looking for a little safety/sanity-check in a multi-coind environment
1557 2013-05-26 17:52:38 <sipa> well with BlueMatt modularized coin properties it may make sense to add something like that
1558 2013-05-26 17:52:58 <sipa> just to distonguish bitcoin-mainnet from bitcoin-testnet or other
1559 2013-05-26 17:53:02 <BlueMatt> TD is the one writing that
1560 2013-05-26 17:53:11 <sipa> really? :o
1561 2013-05-26 17:53:43 <BlueMatt> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2632
1562 2013-05-26 17:53:47 <sipa> oh indeed
1563 2013-05-26 17:54:08 <sipa> he started by mentioning you in the text, so somehow i thought you wrote it
1564 2013-05-26 17:54:12 <wumpus> donpdonp: just query the genesis block :p
1565 2013-05-26 17:54:13 <sipa> bad bad brain
1566 2013-05-26 17:54:23 <BlueMatt> sipa: heh, no, I had just read over it before he posted it
1567 2013-05-26 17:54:31 <sipa> wumpus: you think altcoins change that?
1568 2013-05-26 17:54:57 <wumpus> sipa: not sure... I'd have thought that's one of the few things they would change
1569 2013-05-26 17:55:12 ProfMac has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1570 2013-05-26 17:55:43 <sipa> along with port numbers and network magic bytes, i guess? :p
1571 2013-05-26 17:55:48 gjj has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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1575 2013-05-26 17:57:05 <wumpus> yes, but seems I'm naive
1576 2013-05-26 17:58:03 <bitanarchy> Can I do port forwarding with vidalia/tor browser bundle... or do i need to install some other software?
1577 2013-05-26 17:58:38 dansmith_btc has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1578 2013-05-26 17:58:47 MoALTz_ is now known as MoALTz
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1580 2013-05-26 17:59:14 <phantomcircuit> bitanarchy, for a hidden service?
1581 2013-05-26 17:59:16 <wumpus> bitanarchy: probably, with "port forwarding" you mean "hidden service" right?
1582 2013-05-26 17:59:22 <phantomcircuit> iirc vidalia lets you manually modify the torrc file
1583 2013-05-26 17:59:34 <bitanarchy> i need port forwarding for bitcoin to run on tor
1584 2013-05-26 17:59:39 ColinT has joined
1585 2013-05-26 17:59:57 <wumpus> only if you want to run a node on tor
1586 2013-05-26 18:00:10 <sipa> bitanarchy: with tor you can; no idea what vidalia really is
1587 2013-05-26 18:00:30 <wumpus> if outbound connections are enough, you just have to configure the socks5 proxy
1588 2013-05-26 18:00:41 <bitanarchy> wumpus: it is part of the tor browser bundle
1589 2013-05-26 18:01:09 <sipa> "what us a wheel? " - "it is part of a car"
1590 2013-05-26 18:01:13 <sipa> *is
1591 2013-05-26 18:01:31 <wumpus> I'd also recommend getting the block chain some other way (for example from the torrent), syncing from scratch all the way over tor is going to take a long time
1592 2013-05-26 18:02:36 <phantomcircuit> sipa, it's a terrible gui for configuring tor
1593 2013-05-26 18:02:46 caedes has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1594 2013-05-26 18:02:47 sumuntib is now known as bitnumus
1595 2013-05-26 18:03:08 <phantomcircuit> they tried to combine writing the config file with accessing the control port into a single program so it's a hilarious mess
1596 2013-05-26 18:03:13 <BlueMatt> afaik they are dropping vidalia in favor of some other tor launcher in tbb
1597 2013-05-26 18:03:16 caedes has joined
1598 2013-05-26 18:03:32 Chaang-Noi has joined
1599 2013-05-26 18:03:40 <wumpus> well they tried making a tor bundle that is easier to use
1600 2013-05-26 18:04:13 <bitanarchy> anyway... i suppose i need to run a tor hidden service to be able to download blocks and see my coins being spend
1601 2013-05-26 18:04:15 <wumpus> just for browsing... which sort of worked, but setting up hidden services is kind of beyond its scope
1602 2013-05-26 18:04:20 <MoALTz> unsurprising considering the health and future depends on the diversity of it's users
1603 2013-05-26 18:04:43 <Chaang-Noi> off topic but https://twitter.com/jonmatonis seems to have been hacked. if anyone can, please send him a message. thanks
1604 2013-05-26 18:04:44 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1605 2013-05-26 18:04:47 <wumpus> you don't need a hidden service for that bitanarchy
1606 2013-05-26 18:04:55 <sipa> bitanarchy: no
1607 2013-05-26 18:04:59 <gmaxwell> bitanarchy: you do not, though if you're going to run on tor its better (for you and other tor users) if you do.
1608 2013-05-26 18:05:15 <sipa> hidden service is of you wamt to let otjer tor users connect to you
1609 2013-05-26 18:05:45 <sipa> if you only want to connect to them (and/or the rest of the ipv4 internet via tor), no need
1610 2013-05-26 18:06:33 debiantoruser has joined
1611 2013-05-26 18:07:08 <sipa> Chaang-Noi: why?
1612 2013-05-26 18:09:35 <bitanarchy> sipa: so i need portforwarding in tor but i do not need to create and list a hidden service... to run (spend coins) behind tor
1613 2013-05-26 18:09:49 <sipa> bitanarchy: indeed
1614 2013-05-26 18:09:52 <phantomcircuit> Chaang-Noi, that bitcoin address is his address
1615 2013-05-26 18:10:11 <sipa> well you don't need port forwarding if tou just want to connect out either
1616 2013-05-26 18:10:31 <sipa> hidden service/port foward/incoming connections go together
1617 2013-05-26 18:10:33 ielo has joined
1618 2013-05-26 18:10:36 <Chaang-Noi> okay, i hope he solved his "emergency".
1619 2013-05-26 18:10:43 <wumpus> bitanarchy: no, as I said before you just need to configure the socks5 proxy in bitcoin to point at your tor instance
1620 2013-05-26 18:10:47 <sipa> tor proxy/outgoing connections go together
1621 2013-05-26 18:10:56 Subo1978 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1622 2013-05-26 18:11:16 <phantomcircuit> Chaang-Noi, huh?
1623 2013-05-26 18:11:44 <Chaang-Noi> can you see his deleated posts?
1624 2013-05-26 18:11:45 <phantomcircuit> although i will say that it's pretty weird to be saying that's a foundation donation address when it's quite clearly his
1625 2013-05-26 18:12:27 <Chaang-Noi> there seemed to be a post now gone that he had an "emergency" and wanted people to send him funds. i can not find that post now
1626 2013-05-26 18:12:36 <phantomcircuit> actually
1627 2013-05-26 18:12:37 <Chaang-Noi> it just seems odd
1628 2013-05-26 18:12:39 <phantomcircuit> http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:08VRSeuEE48J:www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2013/03/13/winpoker-becomes-first-major-gambling-operator-to-adopt-bitcoin/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=ubuntu
1629 2013-05-26 18:12:42 <phantomcircuit> http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2013/03/13/winpoker-becomes-first-major-gambling-operator-to-adopt-bitcoin/
1630 2013-05-26 18:12:45 <phantomcircuit> those dont match
1631 2013-05-26 18:13:04 <phantomcircuit> the google cache version has the donation address
1632 2013-05-26 18:13:07 <phantomcircuit> but not the live site
1633 2013-05-26 18:13:08 <gwillen> Chaang-Noi: be careful, if he got hacked the emergency was almost certainly fake
1634 2013-05-26 18:13:11 Benjojo has joined
1635 2013-05-26 18:13:13 <phantomcircuit> so lol yeah maybe he was hacked
1636 2013-05-26 18:13:14 <gwillen> it's a very common scam
1637 2013-05-26 18:13:38 <gwillen> I've never seen it done on twitter though
1638 2013-05-26 18:13:40 <phantomcircuit> i have an emergency send me bitcoins which i can us to buy... ?
1639 2013-05-26 18:13:48 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1640 2013-05-26 18:13:58 <Chaang-Noi> well, people are getting scammed so best to fix it
1641 2013-05-26 18:14:00 adam3us has joined
1642 2013-05-26 18:14:25 <Chaang-Noi> anyway i already had someone send a message on skype buy if anyone has his phone number, might be best to give him a call if you can confirm its a hack
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1655 2013-05-26 18:31:36 <bitanarchy> isn it much more easy to run a virtual currency only exchange compared to a fiat/virt currency exchange?
1656 2013-05-26 18:33:42 <amiller> adam3us, hi
1657 2013-05-26 18:34:11 <bitanarchy> bitcoin connections are very scarce behind tor... but litecoin connections i just never see
1658 2013-05-26 18:34:45 <amiller> adam3us, you may also enjoy #bitcoin-wizards which is a safe place to talk about bigger ideas without interrupting more everyday development talk
1659 2013-05-26 18:34:52 gavinandresen has joined
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1663 2013-05-26 18:35:49 <amiller> but i'm really interested in getting to understand the committed blind coins idea better, gmaxwell talked about it a bit in here too
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1669 2013-05-26 18:42:34 <pjorrit> you can run bitcoin on tor only without doing weird hacks?
1670 2013-05-26 18:44:12 Namworld has quit (Client Quit)
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1672 2013-05-26 18:44:37 <maaku> etotheipi_: i could be convinced to do a hard-fork pull request converting transactions inputs/outputs into hash trees, and deployed to testnet or freicoin
1673 2013-05-26 18:45:07 <maaku> but i'm not convinced of its utility.. i'm not sure when you'd need it except for validating backwards, in which case you'd eventually need the whole transaction anyway
1674 2013-05-26 18:45:46 <TheUni> wumpus: ping
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1678 2013-05-26 18:46:40 <gmaxwell> maaku: thats potentially not the case. If you are willing to accept a reduced security model then you may want to validate that outputs were previously in the chain (e.g. when randomly validating a subset of a new block), but you don't care about signatures or inputs for the transactions that created those outputs.
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1682 2013-05-26 18:48:37 <gmaxwell> (now, how valuable that is ... is perhaps an open question... but if someone does thing that storgeless block validation is useful, it would make sense to minimize the required bandwidth)
1683 2013-05-26 18:48:48 <maaku> sipa: I planned on storing (and maintaining) both indices
1684 2013-05-26 18:48:56 <maaku> if you can think of a better way of doing it, I'm all ears :)
1685 2013-05-26 18:49:10 altamic has joined
1686 2013-05-26 18:49:28 <sipa> pjorrit: is editing a tor config file, and adding some bitcoin command-line options a weird hack?
1687 2013-05-26 18:49:38 altamic has left ()
1688 2013-05-26 18:50:03 <phantomcircuit> lol
1689 2013-05-26 18:50:06 <phantomcircuit> getrawtransactions
1690 2013-05-26 18:50:07 <phantomcircuit> this
1691 2013-05-26 18:50:10 <phantomcircuit> this is much faster
1692 2013-05-26 18:50:27 <sipa> maaku: my suggestion with txnum is just a way to avoif needing to store all utxos twice
1693 2013-05-26 18:50:35 ThomasV has joined
1694 2013-05-26 18:51:23 <sipa> maaku: i haven't dome the math to know how much and whether at all it gains you something
1695 2013-05-26 18:52:36 resinate has quit (Quit: resinate)
1696 2013-05-26 18:53:31 <maaku> finally caught up
1697 2013-05-26 18:53:35 jdnavarro has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1698 2013-05-26 18:53:43 <maaku> sipa: i thought you meant some way of combining the two indices together, so you only need to maintain one
1699 2013-05-26 18:54:05 <maaku> the txnum approach is worth considering
1700 2013-05-26 18:54:22 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1701 2013-05-26 18:54:32 <maaku> i would think though that network bandwidth (proof size) would be more important than disk space though
1702 2013-05-26 18:54:41 amiller has quit (Excess Flood)
1703 2013-05-26 18:54:51 <sipa> well network bandwidth for what
1704 2013-05-26 18:55:06 <sipa> for o(1) trusted storage validating?
1705 2013-05-26 18:55:07 <maaku> for transmitting proofs (paths through the Merkle index)
1706 2013-05-26 18:55:14 <sipa> for utxo set transfer?
1707 2013-05-26 18:55:16 <sipa> ok
1708 2013-05-26 18:55:18 <maaku> yes, that's one application, but also lite nodes retrieving their wallets
1709 2013-05-26 18:55:49 <sipa> sure
1710 2013-05-26 18:56:16 <maaku> for that you would have to have the script -> txnum path, then for each txnum, txnum -> txout, which would probably be much larger
1711 2013-05-26 18:56:38 <sipa> true
1712 2013-05-26 18:56:48 <tholenst> can someone explain me this? Suppose that every block would have to have a correct hash of all unspent txouts to be valid -- then i would only have to download those, right?
1713 2013-05-26 18:57:10 <sipa> tholenst: depends on your security model
1714 2013-05-26 18:57:57 <sipa> if you're willing to assume that the chain with the highest proof-of-work is also valid, yes
1715 2013-05-26 18:58:03 <tholenst> well, if i have the current txouts and then the network keeps this block for the next 10 generations i'm pretty sure it's a valid block, so the txout are correct
1716 2013-05-26 18:58:12 <tholenst> ok yes
1717 2013-05-26 18:58:31 <sipa> not saying that's an unreasonable assumption
1718 2013-05-26 18:58:31 Neozonz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1719 2013-05-26 18:58:48 <sipa> but you should still be aware it's a strict reduction in security
1720 2013-05-26 18:59:14 Guest65060 has joined
1721 2013-05-26 18:59:20 <tholenst> true -- i'm not quite sure how much a reduction it is
1722 2013-05-26 18:59:41 <tholenst> but yes, you're right
1723 2013-05-26 18:59:51 zooko has joined
1724 2013-05-26 19:00:29 damientrog has joined
1725 2013-05-26 19:00:40 <tholenst> thanks for the info!
1726 2013-05-26 19:00:41 <BDCrate> will BTC stats continue to be updated? http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2013/05
1727 2013-05-26 19:00:55 <BlueMatt> its been off and on for years...
1728 2013-05-26 19:00:56 <wumpus> TheUni: pong
1729 2013-05-26 19:01:13 tyn has joined
1730 2013-05-26 19:01:20 <TheUni> wumpus: hi, i was told i should speak to you about some work i'm doing with the buildsystem
1731 2013-05-26 19:01:22 <BlueMatt> ;;seen CDecker
1732 2013-05-26 19:01:22 <gribble> CDecker was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 47 weeks, 4 days, 7 hours, 16 minutes, and 52 seconds ago: <cdecker> If you want to be notified take a look at http://www.bitcoinmonitor.net/services/
1733 2013-05-26 19:02:04 <BDCrate> gavin said at the conference u can help out with test-net and running a full node so I was looking into that. A couple of good links would be great
1734 2013-05-26 19:02:20 <wumpus> TheUni: hm, me? I heard Luke-Jr is working on a build system as well
1735 2013-05-26 19:02:42 <TheUni> wumpus: i'm working to autotools-ify the buildsystem, the current one makes my brain hurt
1736 2013-05-26 19:02:43 <sipa> wumpus: luke was not talking about himself, but about theuni i think
1737 2013-05-26 19:02:51 <TheUni> wumpus: i think he might've been referring to me
1738 2013-05-26 19:03:02 <wumpus> TheUni: oh ok right :)
1739 2013-05-26 19:03:28 <wumpus> TheUni: good luck in that case
1740 2013-05-26 19:03:44 <TheUni> wumpus: so i'm basically looking for some input on the qt side of things. it's becoming clear how i think it should look, but obviously that doesn't help without everyone on board
1741 2013-05-26 19:04:20 <wumpus> TheUni: ok, ask away
1742 2013-05-26 19:04:27 <TheUni> well, it's building fine with autotools, it's really not a huge task. but i need to know what the hard/soft boundaries are as far as changes go
1743 2013-05-26 19:04:54 <wumpus> any economic changes are strictly off limits :p
1744 2013-05-26 19:05:18 <TheUni> the biggest of which is (obviously) does the .pro build need to stay?
1745 2013-05-26 19:05:20 <sipa> TheUni: one thing you may not know: the bdb version linked against is important, as they are not backward compatible with respect to database files, and for some things nit even forward compatible
1746 2013-05-26 19:05:33 <TheUni> i've been working under the assumption that it's a requirement
1747 2013-05-26 19:05:45 <wumpus> TheUni: I think at least initially it's better to keep both
1748 2013-05-26 19:05:51 * BlueMatt votes for bdb upgrade to 5.1
1749 2013-05-26 19:05:56 chmod755 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1750 2013-05-26 19:06:23 <TheUni> wumpus: ok, well, i'm also working to keep them in parallel. so that it can be pulled into the tree without breaking existing build, and the official build method can migrate once everyone's comfortable
1751 2013-05-26 19:06:34 <sipa> TheUni: the current releases are built with 4.8 and anything else risks having wallet files that are incompatible between releases
1752 2013-05-26 19:06:47 <TheUni> sipa: ok
1753 2013-05-26 19:06:50 <sipa> BlueMatt: what is the earliest ubhntu that has 5.1
1754 2013-05-26 19:07:40 <TheUni> wumpus: by the above, i meant build-systems, not bdb
1755 2013-05-26 19:07:43 <wumpus> TheUni: if you want to change the official build process you'd need to update the gitian scripts as well
1756 2013-05-26 19:08:00 <TheUni> wumpus: understood.
1757 2013-05-26 19:08:07 <BlueMatt> sipa: precise
1758 2013-05-26 19:08:14 <TheUni> wumpus: at this point, i'm just trying to grasp what's on the table and what's not
1759 2013-05-26 19:08:25 idstam has quit ()
1760 2013-05-26 19:08:35 <TheUni> i don't mind doing the work that's required once i can hammer that out
1761 2013-05-26 19:08:35 <wumpus> TheUni: but initially at least I'm fine with two build systems, and automake being experimental
1762 2013-05-26 19:09:08 <sipa> well it can live in a pullreq before being complete too
1763 2013-05-26 19:09:17 <gmaxwell> I don't think we should ever upgrade BDB unless we believe we must. Since we'll be moving off of it, having to deal with _more_ incompatible formats would be lame.
1764 2013-05-26 19:09:21 <TheUni> ok
1765 2013-05-26 19:09:23 <sipa> we can test gitian releases and everything againsy side branches
1766 2013-05-26 19:09:40 MiningBuddy has joined
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1768 2013-05-26 19:09:40 MiningBuddy has joined
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1770 2013-05-26 19:09:44 <wumpus> right, but as we all know, most people will only test once it's in the stream, and it doesn't really get in the way
1771 2013-05-26 19:09:50 <TheUni> wumpus: are there many devs who use qt gui tools to build? or do most use the makefile?
1772 2013-05-26 19:10:01 <wumpus> TheUni: diapolo and me use qt creator
1773 2013-05-26 19:10:15 <sipa> it does risk being incomllete and getting outdated
1774 2013-05-26 19:10:22 Neozonz has joined
1775 2013-05-26 19:10:25 <TheUni> ok
1776 2013-05-26 19:10:52 <sipa> and if the old mechanism is still supported at the same time, we risk not catching problems on obscure envs
1777 2013-05-26 19:11:05 <TheUni> wumpus: my current approach is this: i've shifted the startup routines into their own file. i build a bitcoin archive without those startup objects. then bitcoind links in the proper startup...
1778 2013-05-26 19:11:27 <TheUni> that means that we can build the archive, and qt creator only builds the qt/ files, then links to the archive
1779 2013-05-26 19:11:43 <wumpus> TheUni: be careful there. there are some #ifdef QT_GUI
1780 2013-05-26 19:12:01 <TheUni> wumpus: i've already killed em in favor of a runtime var
1781 2013-05-26 19:12:01 <sipa> we should get rid of the default key
1782 2013-05-26 19:12:06 darkskiez has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1783 2013-05-26 19:12:15 <wumpus> TheUni: you'll have to change those to a flag, ok you already did that, cool
1784 2013-05-26 19:12:17 <wumpus> sipa: yes!
1785 2013-05-26 19:12:18 <TheUni> wumpus: i can go ahead and PR that if you'd like, my intention was to push that up first
1786 2013-05-26 19:13:33 darkskiez has joined
1787 2013-05-26 19:14:17 ixaeon has joined
1788 2013-05-26 19:14:23 <sipa> wumpus: can't remember if it was merged, but i made having the default key present optional in the core recently
1789 2013-05-26 19:14:43 <sipa> so dropping it entirely shouldn't be too hard
1790 2013-05-26 19:15:54 <wumpus> sipa: I don't think that's merged yet -- sounds like a good idea to make it optional and deprectated for a release first
1791 2013-05-26 19:16:19 <wumpus> TheUni: yes, that could be seperate
1792 2013-05-26 19:16:26 <TheUni> wumpus: ok, pr'ing now
1793 2013-05-26 19:16:46 BDCrate has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1794 2013-05-26 19:19:28 <wumpus> sipa: as I have no clue if anyone is relying on default key behavior
1795 2013-05-26 19:19:42 <gmaxwell> Anyone here have a copy of the C99 standard?
1796 2013-05-26 19:20:50 <sipa> wumpus: i think it is merged; it was a fix for salvagewallet not working on encrypted wallets
1797 2013-05-26 19:21:07 <sipa> wumpus: afaik it's almost unobservable
1798 2013-05-26 19:21:25 toffoo has quit ()
1799 2013-05-26 19:22:04 <sipa> by optional i mean "do not croak if it is missing"
1800 2013-05-26 19:22:11 <wumpus> sipa: I still see "// If default receiving address gets used, replace it with a new one" in wallet.cpp inside a #ifdef
1801 2013-05-26 19:22:19 <wumpus> sipa: ohh, right
1802 2013-05-26 19:22:24 <wumpus> sipa: yes, that was merged
1803 2013-05-26 19:22:51 forrestv has quit (Changing host)
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1805 2013-05-26 19:23:50 <jaakkos> superkuh's bitcoin-qt attempted to double spend some coins yesterday because he was not syncd, creating a tx with one unspent and one unspent input. i told him to salvagewallet but he got
1806 2013-05-26 19:23:58 <wumpus> gmaxwell: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/WG14/www/docs/n1256.pdf ?
1807 2013-05-26 19:24:01 <jaakkos> 14:24:56 < superkuh> I tried "$ bitcoin-qt -salvagewallet" but it just closed instantly like I said and db.log says, "wallet.1369480119.bak: DB_VERIFY_BAD: Database verification failed"
1808 2013-05-26 19:24:20 <jaakkos> in the end i helped him to export and import all private keys to a new wallet, which worked.
1809 2013-05-26 19:24:26 <sipa> was that on 0.8.2?
1810 2013-05-26 19:24:57 <sipa> salvagewallet doesn't work on encrypted wallets in earlier versions
1811 2013-05-26 19:25:09 <sipa> though i think with a different error message
1812 2013-05-26 19:25:26 <sipa> so that may not be it
1813 2013-05-26 19:26:08 <jaakkos> sipa: i understood he used v0.8.1.0-g34d62a8-beta
1814 2013-05-26 19:26:15 <sipa> ok
1815 2013-05-26 19:26:37 <jaakkos> his wallet was not encrypted
1816 2013-05-26 19:26:42 <sipa> ok
1817 2013-05-26 19:26:55 <sipa> then it was likely too damaged ti recover, i guess...
1818 2013-05-26 19:27:18 <sipa> how did you get to export the keys from it
1819 2013-05-26 19:27:21 <sipa> ?
1820 2013-05-26 19:27:28 <jaakkos> he didn't know how he ended up with the tx first, but when we investigated it turned out he had sent the other output to mtgox earlier
1821 2013-05-26 19:27:38 <jaakkos> we used pywallet
1822 2013-05-26 19:28:01 <sipa> and ptwallet could open the wallet :o
1823 2013-05-26 19:28:03 <jaakkos> but he had apparently another copy of the wallet
1824 2013-05-26 19:28:10 <sipa> ah
1825 2013-05-26 19:28:10 <wumpus> pywallet is a the swiss knife of wallet recovery
1826 2013-05-26 19:28:20 <jaakkos> that he used later without being in sync - which messed it up
1827 2013-05-26 19:28:36 <pjorrit> oh sipa no, that's not a hack, so it seems like tor is supported in bitcoin, that's cool
1828 2013-05-26 19:28:51 <sipa> but if bdb in superduper ignore all errors and just give me whatever you find mode can't open the wallet file
1829 2013-05-26 19:29:06 <sipa> how the hell did pywallet open it?
1830 2013-05-26 19:29:19 <sipa> pjorrit: i wrote it, see doc/tor.txr
1831 2013-05-26 19:29:20 <jaakkos> python pywallet.py --dumpwallet > keys.txt
1832 2013-05-26 19:29:41 <sipa> jaakkos: it was a retorical question
1833 2013-05-26 19:29:45 <wumpus> pywallet can even scan physical harddisk images for private keys
1834 2013-05-26 19:29:51 <sipa> oh ok
1835 2013-05-26 19:30:07 <jaakkos> sipa: yeah, but for completeness :)
1836 2013-05-26 19:30:12 <pjorrit> bitcoin/doc/tor :>
1837 2013-05-26 19:30:15 <TheUni> wumpus: ok, that part is PR'd
1838 2013-05-26 19:30:37 <TheUni> wumpus: are you interested in lending a hand on the qt creator side? I'm not familiar with it at all
1839 2013-05-26 19:30:55 <wumpus>  though for a simple --dumpwallet afaik it should simply use bdb
1840 2013-05-26 19:31:37 <wumpus> TheUni: what do you need changed?
1841 2013-05-26 19:31:40 <sipa> #%&@ i don't get bdb
1842 2013-05-26 19:31:55 <TheUni> wumpus: i'm not exactly sure yet...
1843 2013-05-26 19:32:01 <sipa> pjorrit: .txt
1844 2013-05-26 19:32:03 <sipa> sorry
1845 2013-05-26 19:32:52 <TheUni> wumpus: as a first step, i'd like to have creator quit trying to build the main files, and only handle the qt/ stuff
1846 2013-05-26 19:33:06 ThomasV_ has joined
1847 2013-05-26 19:33:15 <sipa> TheUni: also note that we're right at the end of a 0.8.2 release cycle, so these changed won't be merged until it is finally released
1848 2013-05-26 19:33:46 <TheUni> hmm, you guys release from master?
1849 2013-05-26 19:33:59 <sipa> usually, yes
1850 2013-05-26 19:34:13 <wumpus> sipa: it uses DB_CREATE|DB_INIT_LOCK|DB_INIT_LOG|DB_INIT_MPOOL|DB_INIT_TXN|DB_THREAD|DB_RECOVER
1851 2013-05-26 19:34:27 <sipa> wumpus: we do too, afaik
1852 2013-05-26 19:34:34 <TheUni> interesting
1853 2013-05-26 19:35:35 <sipa> sometimes master is already ahead and a bygfix release is necessary, in which case it happens from a branch
1854 2013-05-26 19:35:45 resinate has joined
1855 2013-05-26 19:35:46 <sipa> 0.8.1 was a side branch
1856 2013-05-26 19:36:04 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
1857 2013-05-26 19:36:21 <jaakkos> how does an SPV client catch up with their transactions when they reconnect to the network? do the neighbors have to go through the whole UTXO set, looking for the SPV's transactions?
1858 2013-05-26 19:36:26 JZavala has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1859 2013-05-26 19:36:28 <TheUni> ok well no worries, i'm not in a hurry
1860 2013-05-26 19:36:40 <wumpus> TheUni: if you haven't added/removed any files for the gui, you don't need to update bitcoin-qt.pro at all
1861 2013-05-26 19:36:50 <sipa> jaakkos: not the UTXO set; that's not possible as it isn't authenticated
1862 2013-05-26 19:37:01 <sipa> jaakkos: the peers have to scan tgrough blocks
1863 2013-05-26 19:37:02 <jaakkos> yeah, no merkle branches for those...
1864 2013-05-26 19:37:05 <jaakkos> oh damn
1865 2013-05-26 19:37:13 <jaakkos> that's pretty bad :E
1866 2013-05-26 19:37:22 <sipa> it seems to work pretty well
1867 2013-05-26 19:37:39 <sipa> also, they only rescan the part they need
1868 2013-05-26 19:37:48 <sipa> (knowing the wallet birthdate)
1869 2013-05-26 19:38:22 <sipa> the idea is that eventually every wallet only needs to see each block once
1870 2013-05-26 19:38:50 <jaakkos> hmm, ok... it can limit the search quite a bit
1871 2013-05-26 19:39:02 <sipa> and you need some historical blocks to be available in case a wallet was offline for a while
1872 2013-05-26 19:39:27 <sipa> but that's nothing really xompared to the requirement of a new full node starting up
1873 2013-05-26 19:39:42 <sipa> which needs to see the entire history
1874 2013-05-26 19:40:55 damientrog has quit (Quit: damientrog)
1875 2013-05-26 19:41:40 porquilho has joined
1876 2013-05-26 19:41:43 <sipa> maaku: i agree that tznum would add very significant overhead for light clients that need to fetch their balance
1877 2013-05-26 19:41:48 <sipa> txnum
1878 2013-05-26 19:43:01 <TheUni> wumpus / sipa: mind taking a quick look at that PR and letting me know if that approach for the global var for gui is ok or not?
1879 2013-05-26 19:43:23 <TheUni> seems very strange to put that in a global extern, but i tried to match the others
1880 2013-05-26 19:43:43 <TheUni> i only ask because i need to do a few more that way while i work as well
1881 2013-05-26 19:44:06 <wumpus> TheUni: from what I've seen it's sensible
1882 2013-05-26 19:44:09 <sipa> TheUni: i think for something like that, and until we have a better solutiin, a global is fine
1883 2013-05-26 19:44:26 <sipa> i'll have a look at the code later
1884 2013-05-26 19:44:43 <TheUni> ok thanks, will continue on with the others that way as well then
1885 2013-05-26 19:44:45 <sipa> ideally the core shouldn't adapt its behaviour based on what frontend is used
1886 2013-05-26 19:44:57 <sipa> but that's outside of the scope of what you're doing
1887 2013-05-26 19:45:00 <TheUni> sipa: yea, there's one really strange case (the wallet)
1888 2013-05-26 19:45:14 <wumpus> sipa: the default key is the only case, the others are about reporting of options and could just as well be parameters
1889 2013-05-26 19:45:15 <TheUni> https://github.com/theuni/bitcoin/commit/ccdba92d4adad1a776bb12e6e3345b60c5f5abd0
1890 2013-05-26 19:45:24 <TheUni> but i figured i'd just leave that alone and stay on-task
1891 2013-05-26 19:45:43 <sipa> TheUni: the reason is mostly historic: wallet (including direct calls to the gui!) were in main.cpp
1892 2013-05-26 19:46:20 <TheUni> hehe, so all these legends i've heard of satoshi being some magical coder... :)
1893 2013-05-26 19:46:32 <sipa> satoshi was a magical coder
1894 2013-05-26 19:46:41 <wumpus> ie, HelpMessage could take a isGUI parameter, AppInit2 could take a forceServer parameter, etc
1895 2013-05-26 19:46:56 <wumpus> the only case that neccesitaes a global is the default address stuff in wallet
1896 2013-05-26 19:46:57 <sipa> he was able to write completely unstructured code that somehow worked and didn't have any security problems :)
1897 2013-05-26 19:47:05 <wumpus> yes, its magical
1898 2013-05-26 19:47:14 <TheUni> wumpus: i had it that way at first (param to HelpMessage and others)
1899 2013-05-26 19:47:30 <gmaxwell> "I gave you a @#$@*( claimed to be impossible _working_ decenteralized cryptocurrency. What have you done except debate my inattention to byteorder?"
1900 2013-05-26 19:47:36 <TheUni> but there are other cases like hasUPNP that would be a nightmare to pass around all over the place
1901 2013-05-26 19:48:03 <wumpus> TheUni: why would you need the same for hasUPNP?
1902 2013-05-26 19:48:14 <sipa> i mean, i'd believe you if you had evidence that it was developed by some TLA agency, in a very nixe modulariz way, and then fed through an obfuscator that removes modularity before release
1903 2013-05-26 19:48:40 <sipa> gmaxwell: meh byteorder
1904 2013-05-26 19:48:48 <wumpus> gmaxwell: +1
1905 2013-05-26 19:49:09 <TheUni> wumpus: because imo ifdef'ery should only be used to block-off code that won't compile. vars should be used to control logic
1906 2013-05-26 19:49:31 <wumpus> TheUni: but for absence/presence of UPNP it seems perfectly fine to use ifdefs
1907 2013-05-26 19:49:43 <phantomcircuit> sipa, ps the slowest part of this is now getblockhash
1908 2013-05-26 19:49:52 <phantomcircuit> i think it's just the rpc call being fairly high latency
1909 2013-05-26 19:49:56 lolcookie__ has joined
1910 2013-05-26 19:49:57 <sipa> phantomcircuit: heh
1911 2013-05-26 19:50:05 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1912 2013-05-26 19:50:10 <sipa> phantomcircuit: my const patch should improve that, no?
1913 2013-05-26 19:50:14 BleedingBytes has left ()
1914 2013-05-26 19:50:14 <phantomcircuit> it was fairly easy to add a getrawtransactions
1915 2013-05-26 19:50:24 <phantomcircuit> sipa, no it's the rpc call itself that's the problem
1916 2013-05-26 19:50:41 <TheUni> wumpus: well, i don't agree. but i'll defer to you on that. so i'll skip it.
1917 2013-05-26 19:50:46 <sipa> its latency can't be higher than that of anything that needs to fetch blocks from disk
1918 2013-05-26 19:50:48 swulf--1 has joined
1919 2013-05-26 19:51:11 <sipa> getblockhash is served purely from ram
1920 2013-05-26 19:51:21 <phantomcircuit> sipa, right i have 1 bitcoind get getblockhash and 8 for getblock/getrawtransaction
1921 2013-05-26 19:51:22 <phantomcircuit> soooo
1922 2013-05-26 19:51:37 <sipa> ah
1923 2013-05-26 19:51:43 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: are you running the patch for getblockhash ?
1924 2013-05-26 19:51:57 <phantomcircuit> no like i said im 99% sure that isn't the problem
1925 2013-05-26 19:52:03 gjj has joined
1926 2013-05-26 19:52:05 <sipa> might well be
1927 2013-05-26 19:52:06 <phantomcircuit> cpu load never goes above 1
1928 2013-05-26 19:52:12 <phantomcircuit> well
1929 2013-05-26 19:52:14 <phantomcircuit> let me try it
1930 2013-05-26 19:52:23 <sipa> but why do you need getblockhash in the first place?
1931 2013-05-26 19:52:30 <sipa> blocks have prev/nwxt pointers
1932 2013-05-26 19:52:45 <wumpus> TheUni: btw, your PR compiles fine with qmake, no changes needed to the .pro
1933 2013-05-26 19:53:05 * sipa goes on a quest to find food
1934 2013-05-26 19:53:11 swulf-- has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1935 2013-05-26 19:53:11 <TheUni> wumpus: thanks.
1936 2013-05-26 19:53:24 <phantomcircuit> sipa, getblock is being called in a fanned out pipeline
1937 2013-05-26 19:53:32 <phantomcircuit> so using the pointers wouldn't really work
1938 2013-05-26 19:53:36 <TheUni> wumpus: but i haven't gotten out the big shovels yet :)
1939 2013-05-26 19:53:56 <wumpus> TheUni: I'd really focus on changing the build system, all changes to the core make it more difficult to merge
1940 2013-05-26 19:54:10 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, also i'll try the patch
1941 2013-05-26 19:54:18 <phantomcircuit> last time it had somewhere between little and no effect
1942 2013-05-26 19:54:32 <TheUni> wumpus: understood. the reason it came up is because the -DFOO won't be passed around anymore
1943 2013-05-26 19:54:34 execut3 has joined
1944 2013-05-26 19:55:25 <wumpus> TheUni: yes, I understand
1945 2013-05-26 19:55:39 <sipa> TheUni: how will you deal with the test code?
1946 2013-05-26 19:55:57 <phantomcircuit> i stand corrected
1947 2013-05-26 19:56:01 <phantomcircuit> this is much faster
1948 2013-05-26 19:56:19 <TheUni> sipa: i haven't looked deeply into that yet, but i assume that we can have it link to the core static archive with its own startup object as well
1949 2013-05-26 19:56:30 rumpler has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1950 2013-05-26 19:56:32 <sipa> TheUni: seems likely, yes
1951 2013-05-26 19:56:48 <TheUni> sipa: that was another thing i meant to ask you guys about...
1952 2013-05-26 19:56:56 <TheUni> for now, several binaries are produced
1953 2013-05-26 19:57:07 <TheUni> seems unnecessary imo
1954 2013-05-26 19:57:16 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1955 2013-05-26 19:57:24 <TheUni> but i wasn't planning to change that behavior at all
1956 2013-05-26 19:57:40 <sipa> you mean tests in tbe same bjnary?
1957 2013-05-26 19:57:52 <wumpus> huh, you still need multiple binaries
1958 2013-05-26 19:58:06 <wumpus> one for bitcoin-qt, one for bitcoind, and for the tests, please don't change that
1959 2013-05-26 19:58:08 rumpler has joined
1960 2013-05-26 19:58:34 <TheUni> wumpus: sure. like i said, i'm leaning towards changing as little as possible...
1961 2013-05-26 19:58:35 <sipa> i wouldn't mind having the cli rpc client in a separate binary too
1962 2013-05-26 19:58:45 <wumpus> but using an intermediate archive to prevent the same files from being compled multiple times is of course a good idea
1963 2013-05-26 19:58:48 <sipa> it's very confusing to new people
1964 2013-05-26 19:58:48 <TheUni> only that if that change was desired, it would be easy enough to achieve
1965 2013-05-26 19:58:54 <wumpus> sipa: yes! good idea
1966 2013-05-26 19:59:13 execut3 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1967 2013-05-26 19:59:13 <sipa> well i think the rpc client funxtion should move to a featureful python script
1968 2013-05-26 19:59:20 <sipa> but that's something else :)
1969 2013-05-26 19:59:23 <gmaxwell> also would make it faster to run for crazy people like me who do rpc automation with shell scripting. :P
1970 2013-05-26 19:59:24 <wumpus> sipa: the only reason for not doing that last time was that people insisted on backward compatibility
1971 2013-05-26 19:59:50 <sipa> gmaxwell: of course it would support nested rpc calls!
1972 2013-05-26 19:59:57 <sipa> wumpus: indeed
1973 2013-05-26 20:00:40 <phantomcircuit>  15:37:09 up 21:17,  1 user,  load average: 14.69, 11.68, 7.43
1974 2013-05-26 20:00:41 <phantomcircuit> lol
1975 2013-05-26 20:00:46 <wumpus> though this could be solved by haveing a transition time in which a cli client is added, but the cli is not yet removed from bitcoind, but gives a deprecation warning
1976 2013-05-26 20:00:58 <sipa> indeed
1977 2013-05-26 20:01:06 <sipa> but someone needs to write it :)
1978 2013-05-26 20:01:19 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1979 2013-05-26 20:02:20 <wumpus> well with the new build system adding an executable should be a breeze right TheUni :p
1980 2013-05-26 20:02:38 <TheUni> wumpus: yep, just a new main()
1981 2013-05-26 20:02:45 <wumpus> no need to update 5 makefiles anymore!
1982 2013-05-26 20:03:14 <TheUni> hehe, i don't know how you guys made it this long
1983 2013-05-26 20:03:23 <Luke-Jr> TheUni: btw, note that LevelDB should NOT be used from the system unless the user explicitly requests it, and then it should give a big ugly warning the same as if a bdb other than 4.8 is used
1984 2013-05-26 20:03:36 <TheUni> i wanted to dive into the code and figure out how to learn/contribute. first time i tried to build, i knew what i'd be working on :)
1985 2013-05-26 20:03:39 bitanarchy has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1986 2013-05-26 20:04:00 <TheUni> Luke-Jr: already got that worked out, it just calls the same ugly make from leveldb/ as before
1987 2013-05-26 20:04:39 <Luke-Jr> TheUni: well, a --with-system-leveldb would be nice so I don't need to rebase that patch :P
1988 2013-05-26 20:04:41 <wumpus> TheUni: because everyone in the dev team hates build systems with a passion
1989 2013-05-26 20:04:53 <sipa> well i'm sure that that could be improved ti, but it's something to fix in upstream leveldb
1990 2013-05-26 20:05:17 <TheUni> i've worked under the assumption that leveldb/* is off-limits. would be nice if that changed, but obviously not my place to say
1991 2013-05-26 20:05:50 <sipa> well thankfully leveldb doesn't have much dependencies of its own
1992 2013-05-26 20:06:23 <TheUni> wumpus: well i work on porting a _huge_ piece of software by day. i'm an embedded dev who typically ends up rewriting/refactoring buildsystems and abstractions to make them more portable
1993 2013-05-26 20:06:24 <Luke-Jr> sipa: 1.10 does :/
1994 2013-05-26 20:06:33 <sipa> Luke-Jr: such as?
1995 2013-05-26 20:06:39 <Luke-Jr> dev-util/google-perftools
1996 2013-05-26 20:06:49 <sipa> can't that be disabled?
1997 2013-05-26 20:06:52 <TheUni> so if you guys like what comes out of this, i'd be happy to be the buildsystem whipping-boy around here :)
1998 2013-05-26 20:06:53 <Luke-Jr> maybe
1999 2013-05-26 20:07:01 <sipa> i'll have a look soon
2000 2013-05-26 20:07:13 <Luke-Jr> looks like Gentoo has a USE flag for it
2001 2013-05-26 20:08:05 <sipa> TheUni: i'm pretty amazed by how quickly you're progressing with this
2002 2013-05-26 20:08:20 <gmaxwell> Until we have good ways to test our external dependencies I certantly don't want anymore more of them in the network-validation critical path.
2003 2013-05-26 20:08:30 <sipa> ack
2004 2013-05-26 20:08:32 <wumpus> TheUni:hehe :) another thing to watch out for are flags such as -fno-stack-protector, make sure they're still passed with the new system
2005 2013-05-26 20:09:27 stalled has joined
2006 2013-05-26 20:09:30 <TheUni> wumpus: sure, but they'll be portable and not hard-coded
2007 2013-05-26 20:09:45 <sipa> and -frandom-seed for gitian
2008 2013-05-26 20:10:05 <sipa> but sure, no need to hardcode
2009 2013-05-26 20:10:26 <sipa> anyway
2010 2013-05-26 20:10:28 <sipa> food!
2011 2013-05-26 20:10:39 <Luke-Jr> MAX_BLOCK_SIZE includes the header, correct?
2012 2013-05-26 20:10:42 <wumpus> but do try to default them to on on systems that support them
2013 2013-05-26 20:10:46 <TheUni> sipa: well, compare to my last big refactor, this is quite small :) https://github.com/xbmc/xbmc/commit/592d4c0b147ab05f2822c7ba5f4e9112784b6ce1
2014 2013-05-26 20:11:01 <TheUni> (warning, firefox killing link)
2015 2013-05-26 20:12:02 <gmaxwell> TheUni: fine in nightly.
2016 2013-05-26 20:12:21 execut3 has joined
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2018 2013-05-26 20:14:18 <wumpus> TheUni: let's blame github for not doing some on-demand loading scheme for large diffs
2019 2013-05-26 20:15:09 <phantomcircuit> added another pipeline step
2020 2013-05-26 20:15:09 <TheUni> heh, i'd call it 50/50 at best. i don't know the details of firefox's renderer, but it seems to block nearly all other operations
2021 2013-05-26 20:15:17 <TheUni> as opposed to the 15 threads that chrome spawns :p
2022 2013-05-26 20:15:21 <phantomcircuit> now getting block hashes is faster than getting transactions
2023 2013-05-26 20:15:22 <phantomcircuit> as it should be
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2057 2013-05-26 20:58:35 <BCB> what does the green V in the bottom of the windows-qt client mean
2058 2013-05-26 20:59:02 <peetaur2> BCB: it's a checkmark, meaning you are in sync
2059 2013-05-26 20:59:21 <peetaur2> hover on those icons for explanation
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2063 2013-05-26 21:01:13 <BCB> ok thx
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2093 2013-05-26 21:40:14 <bitanarchy> Can i see the number of bitcoin connections that armory has?
2094 2013-05-26 21:43:04 Raizen has joined
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2096 2013-05-26 21:44:03 parus_ is now known as parus
2097 2013-05-26 21:44:49 <sipa> afaik, it has none, and just uses a bitcoind in the background?
2098 2013-05-26 21:45:13 rashni has joined
2099 2013-05-26 21:45:16 <sipa> (ianaetotheipi)
2100 2013-05-26 21:45:17 Guest65060 is now known as amiller
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2103 2013-05-26 21:45:27 <Luke-Jr> sipa: that's like saying Bitcoin-Qt has no connections and just uses Satoshi in the bg :P
2104 2013-05-26 21:45:55 nomailing has joined
2105 2013-05-26 21:46:11 <sipa> Luke-Jr: fair enough, but at least it's the same process and the same codebase
2106 2013-05-26 21:46:27 rashni has left ()
2107 2013-05-26 21:46:39 <sipa> but yes, ok, it being a frontend doesn't mean that the question is meaningless
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2114 2013-05-26 21:57:37 <maaku> heh, ianaetotheipi
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2180 2013-05-26 23:45:11 <cornfeedhobo> gmaxwell: what is your read on these TerraHash guys with the Klondikes? I see that your a mod on that thread...
2181 2013-05-26 23:45:12 <goodbtc> gmaxwell was last seen in #bitcoin 1 week, 2 days, 5 hours, 59 minutes, and 47 seconds ago
2182 2013-05-26 23:45:30 <goodbtc> don't you miss us?
2183 2013-05-26 23:48:01 <warren> gmaxwell: crap.   I can't get it to get stuck in a different non-root user account.  This is making no sense.
2184 2013-05-26 23:48:38 kadoban has joined
2185 2013-05-26 23:48:44 <warren> gmaxwell: only difference between the two is a gigantic wallet.dat with thousands of p2pool dust, not sure if that would effect this...
2186 2013-05-26 23:49:48 <sipa> define gigantic?
2187 2013-05-26 23:51:19 <warren> 38MB
2188 2013-05-26 23:51:45 franl has joined
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2190 2013-05-26 23:52:15 <sipa> meh, shouldn't be a problem
2191 2013-05-26 23:52:30 <sipa> do you know where exactly in the shutdown process it gets stuck?
2192 2013-05-26 23:52:32 <gmaxwell> maybe some shutdown race condition?
2193 2013-05-26 23:52:45 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2194 2013-05-26 23:52:55 <warren> I'll install all debuginfo and do a trace again.
2195 2013-05-26 23:53:23 wei_ has joined
2196 2013-05-26 23:53:32 <sipa> gmaxwell: could well be
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2198 2013-05-26 23:54:28 <bitanarchy> Why do multibit wallets not have a key pool?
2199 2013-05-26 23:55:47 <phantomcircuit> because they use deterministic key generation
2200 2013-05-26 23:55:55 <sipa> no, they don't
2201 2013-05-26 23:56:01 <phantomcircuit> sipa, they dont?
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2203 2013-05-26 23:56:04 <phantomcircuit> i'd swear they did
2204 2013-05-26 23:56:04 <sipa> it's because they don't use change addresses
2205 2013-05-26 23:56:10 <phantomcircuit> oh
2206 2013-05-26 23:56:12 <phantomcircuit> that's shitty
2207 2013-05-26 23:57:06 <sipa> but they'll switch to bip32... someday
2208 2013-05-26 23:57:10 <franl> So where does the change go to?
2209 2013-05-26 23:57:11 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2210 2013-05-26 23:57:27 <sipa> franl: back to the address it came from
2211 2013-05-26 23:57:41 <bitanarchy> aha
2212 2013-05-26 23:57:53 <franl> Whoa.
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2214 2013-05-26 23:58:10 <bitanarchy> whatś bip32
2215 2013-05-26 23:58:16 <warren> hmm, the shutdown hang happens about 1/30 times with bitcoin-qt, and 1/4 with litecoin-qt, both with fedora native and gitian builds.
2216 2013-05-26 23:58:19 <sipa> google is our briand
2217 2013-05-26 23:58:20 wallet431 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2218 2013-05-26 23:58:22 <sipa> wut
2219 2013-05-26 23:58:25 <sipa> google is your friend
2220 2013-05-26 23:58:33 <sipa> how can i ake such a typo
2221 2013-05-26 23:58:45 <phantomcircuit> sipa, clearly google is brian
2222 2013-05-26 23:59:05 <sipa> Make
2223 2013-05-26 23:59:08 <distortd> hello, I have a question, so I cloned the bitcoin repo and made a new branch, how do I keep up to date with the latest release?
2224 2013-05-26 23:59:14 * phantomcircuit imagines a dude with a nametag "brian" running around franticly searching through mountains of paper
2225 2013-05-26 23:59:40 <distortd> like let's say the master is updated, how do I grab those changes over to the branch?
2226 2013-05-26 23:59:50 <phantomcircuit> distortd, git merge