1 2013-05-27 00:00:06 <phantomcircuit> or rebase? i cant remember the "right" way to do it
   2 2013-05-27 00:00:28 <gmaxwell> sipa: it's the implant. Sometimes the subconscious cues leak out.
   3 2013-05-27 00:00:39 <sipa> gmaxwell: no NO NO
   4 2013-05-27 00:00:46 <distortd> not sure I want merge
   5 2013-05-27 00:00:49 <sipa> huh, i wanted tot type yes!
   6 2013-05-27 00:01:03 <distortd> I was under the impression merge combines the 2 branches
   7 2013-05-27 00:01:15 <distortd> unless it doesn't?
   8 2013-05-27 00:01:23 <sipa> it does, but it's exactly what you want
   9 2013-05-27 00:01:37 <sipa> you can also rebase
  10 2013-05-27 00:01:57 <sipa> which means changing your own branch in a way such that it seems as if it were made on top of the new version of master
  11 2013-05-27 00:02:01 richcollins has joined
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  13 2013-05-27 00:03:10 <super3> what bitcoind command can i use to find out the current transaction fee?
  14 2013-05-27 00:03:12 <distortd> I see
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  16 2013-05-27 00:03:31 <sipa> super3: what do you mean by 'current transaction fee' ?
  17 2013-05-27 00:05:04 <super3> i see 'settxfee <amount>' in the console i want a gettxfee comand
  18 2013-05-27 00:05:06 <super3> command*
  19 2013-05-27 00:05:14 <sipa> ah
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  21 2013-05-27 00:05:25 <phantomcircuit> super3, settxfee is deceptive, it sets the minimum fee, not a fixed fee
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  23 2013-05-27 00:05:38 <sipa> neither
  24 2013-05-27 00:05:42 <phantomcircuit> sipa, no?
  25 2013-05-27 00:05:49 <sipa> it sets the transaction fee per kilobyte for created transactions
  26 2013-05-27 00:05:59 <distortd> sipa, I'm having some difficulty setting up my workstation..
  27 2013-05-27 00:06:06 <super3> hey sipa
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  29 2013-05-27 00:06:23 <phantomcircuit> sipa, hey sipa can you help me do something or other that is marginally imporant
  30 2013-05-27 00:06:24 <distortd> so all I want to do is go into my workstation folder, run 'git init' and 'git clone https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.git'
  31 2013-05-27 00:06:26 <phantomcircuit> hehe
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  33 2013-05-27 00:06:34 * phantomcircuit runs and hides from the angry mob
  34 2013-05-27 00:06:41 <sipa> distortd: ok, then do that?
  35 2013-05-27 00:06:49 <sipa> distortd: i won.t stop you
  36 2013-05-27 00:07:25 * sipa -> walk
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  39 2013-05-27 00:09:54 <super3> guys it was in getinfo....
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  45 2013-05-27 00:11:30 <warren> anyone have an old, retired bitcoin wallet.dat with thousands of tx's?  It might help me test this bug.
  46 2013-05-27 00:12:38 <maaku> warren: testnet?
  47 2013-05-27 00:12:39 donpdonp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  48 2013-05-27 00:12:56 <warren> maaku: if you got one, I'd like to try it.
  49 2013-05-27 00:13:31 <maaku> i mean launch testnet in a box, and create thousands of spammy transactions
  50 2013-05-27 00:13:42 <warren> where's a good tx generator?
  51 2013-05-27 00:14:06 <maaku> a bash script calling ./bitcoind sendtoaddress ... in a loop
  52 2013-05-27 00:14:31 <warren> oh.  send to one of your own addresses?
  53 2013-05-27 00:14:38 <maaku> yeah
  54 2013-05-27 00:14:42 <warren> but then you need a miner to confirm them before you can send the change again
  55 2013-05-27 00:14:56 <maaku> easy to do on testnet with difficulty 1
  56 2013-05-27 00:15:06 <maaku> and no, you don't need a confirmation
  57 2013-05-27 00:15:26 <warren> sendtoaddress will send 0-conf?
  58 2013-05-27 00:15:32 <maaku> yes
  59 2013-05-27 00:15:35 <warren> ooh ok.
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  63 2013-05-27 00:21:10 <distortd> okay sipa
  64 2013-05-27 00:21:13 <distortd> I think I'm doing this wrong
  65 2013-05-27 00:21:38 <distortd> so I cloned the repo, and I set up my own branch
  66 2013-05-27 00:21:57 <distortd> but I can't seem to commit, because I think I'm still on the main bitcoin repo
  67 2013-05-27 00:22:27 <gwillen> distortd: what error is git giving you?
  68 2013-05-27 00:22:41 <distortd> ERROR: permission to bitcoin/bitcoin.git denied
  69 2013-05-27 00:22:48 <gwillen> distortd: you should always be able to 'git commit' to your own clone of the repo, but not 'git push'
  70 2013-05-27 00:22:53 <gwillen> hmm
  71 2013-05-27 00:22:59 <distortd> oh wait
  72 2013-05-27 00:23:06 <distortd> okay
  73 2013-05-27 00:23:09 <distortd> so how do I see a list
  74 2013-05-27 00:23:12 <distortd> of all my commits?
  75 2013-05-27 00:23:15 <maaku> git log
  76 2013-05-27 00:23:16 <gwillen> git log
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  79 2013-05-27 00:27:40 <phantomcircuit> neat
  80 2013-05-27 00:27:51 <phantomcircuit> sipa, so i added a getrawtransactions api call
  81 2013-05-27 00:27:59 <phantomcircuit> completely fixed my problem
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  84 2013-05-27 00:28:18 <gmaxwell> how is getrawtransactions different from getrawtransaction
  85 2013-05-27 00:28:19 <gmaxwell> ?
  86 2013-05-27 00:28:30 <phantomcircuit> the s
  87 2013-05-27 00:28:40 <gmaxwell> did you try the pipelining stuff?
  88 2013-05-27 00:29:13 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, as in did i try pushing multiple requests over the same tcp socket and then processing the responses later?
  89 2013-05-27 00:29:17 <phantomcircuit> no
  90 2013-05-27 00:29:42 <phantomcircuit> there's a latency issue with the rpc api
  91 2013-05-27 00:30:12 <phantomcircuit> the actual operations complete in reasonable amounts of time
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  93 2013-05-27 00:30:49 <phantomcircuit> but making millions if not tens of millions of individual rpc calls to get all the transactions
  94 2013-05-27 00:30:52 <phantomcircuit> would just be crazy
  95 2013-05-27 00:31:01 <gmaxwell> 'latency' .. there sure shouldn't be. It's not like it sleeps.
  96 2013-05-27 00:31:17 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i suspect it's something about boost::asio
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  98 2013-05-27 00:31:30 <gmaxwell> Well I'd believe any amount of evil from that code.
  99 2013-05-27 00:31:35 <phantomcircuit> im starting to think the deadlock issue is a recv() being called on a socket with no data somewheer
 100 2013-05-27 00:31:36 <gmaxwell> But thats more me than it.
 101 2013-05-27 00:32:03 <phantomcircuit> of course the only way to prove that is to wade through a mountain of strace data
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 103 2013-05-27 00:36:03 <doublec> I've been seeing hangs when using 0.8.2rc3 on my server when using the RPC interface. Anyone else seeing similar?
 104 2013-05-27 00:36:22 <doublec> I'll do things like "getinfo" and it just hangs for a very very long time. Occasionally it returns with the data.
 105 2013-05-27 00:36:34 <doublec> so I assume it's blocking on a lock or something?
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 107 2013-05-27 00:36:48 <doublec> the server is a mining pool so gets fairly busy using RPC
 108 2013-05-27 00:36:54 <doublec> 0.8.1 works fine
 109 2013-05-27 00:37:07 * Luke-Jr isn't sure why a mining pool would be busy with RPC on bitcoind :P
 110 2013-05-27 00:37:27 <doublec> Luke-Jr: my old getwork server just proxies to getwork on the bitcoind
 111 2013-05-27 00:37:36 <distortd> phantomcircuit, can you look at your PMs?
 112 2013-05-27 00:37:36 <Luke-Jr> eww
 113 2013-05-27 00:37:38 <doublec> Luke-Jr: it still has 20ghash or so on it so does quite a bit of rpc
 114 2013-05-27 00:37:49 <phantomcircuit> distortd, dont do dat
 115 2013-05-27 00:37:57 <phantomcircuit> distortd, if you have trouble with git join #git
 116 2013-05-27 00:38:03 * Luke-Jr votes remove getwork from bitcoind <.<
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 118 2013-05-27 00:38:55 <distortd> ahhhh why is this so hard
 119 2013-05-27 00:39:18 <sipa> did anything change in how rpcs are handled between 0.8.1 and 0.8.2?
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 122 2013-05-27 00:39:28 <sipa> i know how the rpc threads are started changed
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 124 2013-05-27 00:39:46 <sipa> but that's it, and i don't see how it could cause deadlocking
 125 2013-05-27 00:39:58 <sipa> then again, i don't understand asio at all
 126 2013-05-27 00:40:57 <doublec> sipa: I'll see if I can come up with a test case
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 128 2013-05-27 00:41:15 <doublec> I was in an airport lounge waiting for a flight when it was happening so I just rolled back to work around it
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 135 2013-05-27 00:48:28 <phantomcircuit> haha success
 136 2013-05-27 00:48:40 <phantomcircuit> im pushing transactions into the db save pipeline faster than they can be saved
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 140 2013-05-27 00:55:06 <phantomcircuit> hehe 2000+ blocks/transactions in the db save queue
 141 2013-05-27 00:55:10 <phantomcircuit> that'll do
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 159 2013-05-27 01:26:32 <warren> sipa: gmaxwell: gavinandresen: http://pastebin.com/1cxmySFQ  thread apply all bt full during the hang after exit.
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 163 2013-05-27 01:33:15 <sipa> warren: nothing out of the ordinary, but i'm not familiar with all that event loop stuff
 164 2013-05-27 01:33:20 <sipa> does it also occur in bitcoind?
 165 2013-05-27 01:33:29 <warren> sipa: yes, less often though
 166 2013-05-27 01:33:55 <warren> I'm building a testnet wallet full of crap to see if the giant wallet makes a difference.
 167 2013-05-27 01:34:18 <warren> sipa: doesn't happen with a fresh wallet
 168 2013-05-27 01:34:36 <warren> sipa: also doesn't happen on ubuntu
 169 2013-05-27 01:34:42 <warren> or windows
 170 2013-05-27 01:35:38 <warren> sipa: oh wait, no, not bitcoind.  only -qt
 171 2013-05-27 01:36:39 <warren> brb
 172 2013-05-27 01:36:47 <sipa> in that case i have no idea where to start looking
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 180 2013-05-27 01:47:12 <warren> argh.  behavior is random.  it just happened with an empty wallet.
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 182 2013-05-27 01:47:27 <warren> bisect time...
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 376 2013-05-27 06:20:28 <Guest59948> Wallets that are abandoned for 100 years should be fed to miners.
 377 2013-05-27 06:21:04 <Luke-Jr> Guest59948: but nobody knows wallets except the wallet owner
 378 2013-05-27 06:21:14 <Luke-Jr> it's impossible to know what they are, let alone that they are abandoned
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 380 2013-05-27 06:21:56 <Guest59948> if it hasn't moved in 100 years
 381 2013-05-27 06:22:15 <sipa> by then, nobody will care
 382 2013-05-27 06:22:26 <Guest59948> exactly
 383 2013-05-27 06:22:51 <Guest59948> it would solve the abandoned coin issue
 384 2013-05-27 06:22:55 ielo has joined
 385 2013-05-27 06:23:03 <sipa> no it won't
 386 2013-05-27 06:23:12 <sipa> not for 96 years
 387 2013-05-27 06:23:44 <Guest59948> why 96?
 388 2013-05-27 06:24:01 <Luke-Jr> Guest59948: coins that haven't moved might just as well be because the owner is rich and moves his other coins
 389 2013-05-27 06:24:05 <sipa> because the oldest unmoved coins are 4 years old
 390 2013-05-27 06:24:12 <sipa> also, which problem
 391 2013-05-27 06:25:25 <Guest59948> if some one looses a wallet the coins are forever lost.
 392 2013-05-27 06:25:39 saivann_ has joined
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 394 2013-05-27 06:25:54 <Luke-Jr> Guest59948: yep. so?
 395 2013-05-27 06:26:17 emfox has joined
 396 2013-05-27 06:27:00 <Guest59948> it wont be a problem in our life time, but in the far distant future it could add up.
 397 2013-05-27 06:27:32 <sipa> either you regard unmovable coins a problem, and then bitcoin will have it solved within 96 years, or it won't exist
 398 2013-05-27 06:27:34 <Guest59948> why not?
 399 2013-05-27 06:27:59 <sipa> or you don't regard it as a problem, and there is none
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 401 2013-05-27 06:28:22 <sipa> what i mean is that setting rules for 100 years in the future, when we have alsmo no clue about what bitcoin will be in one year, is pointless
 402 2013-05-27 06:28:23 GordonG3kko has joined
 403 2013-05-27 06:28:40 <Luke-Jr> net effect: people get upset
 404 2013-05-27 06:28:46 <sipa> and indeed
 405 2013-05-27 06:28:48 saulimus has joined
 406 2013-05-27 06:29:12 <sipa> it's a rule i would certainly consider (with a far smaller maximum age) if i'd design bitcoin right now from scratch
 407 2013-05-27 06:29:29 <sipa> but changing it now would be breaking the implicit social contract
 408 2013-05-27 06:29:38 <sipa> namely: your coins are yours and yours alone to move
 409 2013-05-27 06:30:12 <Luke-Jr> maybe in 80 years, you can convince the community to schedule a hardfork adding such a rule in 20
 410 2013-05-27 06:30:12 <Guest59948> just an Idea
 411 2013-05-27 06:30:13 <Luke-Jr> :P
 412 2013-05-27 06:30:29 <sipa> also: it be a hard fork, which needs pretty much unanimous support
 413 2013-05-27 06:31:24 <Guest59948> aren't fork gonna get harder to achieve in the future?
 414 2013-05-27 06:32:32 <Duly> hopefully
 415 2013-05-27 06:32:38 <sipa> yes and no
 416 2013-05-27 06:32:53 <Luke-Jr> yes, no, and MAYBE
 417 2013-05-27 06:32:54 <sipa> i think we should get used to the idea that from time to time a hardfork may be necessary
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 419 2013-05-27 06:33:22 <phantomcircuit> sipa, but still avoided at all costs
 420 2013-05-27 06:33:24 <Luke-Jr> let's hardfork every week to teach the newbies obedience
 421 2013-05-27 06:33:24 <sipa> but in any case, they will require an extremely high form of consensus
 422 2013-05-27 06:33:32 <gmaxwell> certantly one that changes economic stuff is ... a non-starter.
 423 2013-05-27 06:33:36 <Luke-Jr> ☺
 424 2013-05-27 06:34:15 <sipa> and indeed, something like this should (imho) only be considered if it's the only solution against a real problem
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 426 2013-05-27 06:34:56 <Guest59948> i suppose it could just open up potential exploites
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 429 2013-05-27 06:35:31 <Guest59948> just a thought i found to be entertaining
 430 2013-05-27 06:37:09 <Guest59948> maybe some day bit coins will be so valuable that we'll mine for them physically in old computers and usb drives.
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 448 2013-05-27 07:03:23 <wiretapped> is it known why satoshi decided to use RIPEMD-160 for addresses instead of truncated sha256?
 449 2013-05-27 07:03:37 <maaku> wiretapped: no
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 452 2013-05-27 07:04:12 <sipa> wiretapped: my guess is that the thought that using to different functions was safer :p
 453 2013-05-27 07:05:08 <sipa> also, note that satoshi (at leats initially) considered pay-to-pubkeyhash sort of an exception, to be used when you couldn't send a transactions directly to an ip
 454 2013-05-27 07:05:30 <wiretapped> using RIPEMD160 there doesn't seem like it gains anything in the event of a preimage attack on sha256
 455 2013-05-27 07:05:45 <sipa> indeed
 456 2013-05-27 07:06:06 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 457 2013-05-27 07:06:25 <wiretapped> weird, i thought ip transactions were always disabled
 458 2013-05-27 07:06:37 GordonG3kko has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 459 2013-05-27 07:06:46 <sipa> they have been disabled for a long time
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 461 2013-05-27 07:06:50 <sipa> but not forever
 462 2013-05-27 07:07:15 <wiretapped> otoh using ripe after sha256 (as addresses do) doesn't seem like it leaves a vulnerability to a ripe-only attack either
 463 2013-05-27 07:07:22 <wiretapped> so maybe more is better
 464 2013-05-27 07:07:39 <wiretapped> compose ALL the hash functions!
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 482 2013-05-27 07:37:14 <xeroc> thats what happens in SSL too... sha256(md5(masterkey))
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 550 2013-05-27 09:18:30 <bitanarchy> is there a bitcoin python tooling set?
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 566 2013-05-27 09:45:22 sharperguy has joined
 567 2013-05-27 09:46:30 <sharperguy> Hey. Just wondering is it possible for anyone to contribute to the bitcoin application? I have it forked on github and some free time so if there's a bug list or something I could try fixing some.
 568 2013-05-27 09:46:46 tmsk has joined
 569 2013-05-27 09:48:03 <Luke-Jr> sharperguy: there is! but mostly what needs doing is TESTING
 570 2013-05-27 09:48:10 <Luke-Jr> sharperguy: if you want to write code, best to write unit tests
 571 2013-05-27 09:48:41 <ThomasV> !seen slush
 572 2013-05-27 09:48:41 <gribble> slush was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 8 weeks, 4 days, 0 hours, 27 minutes, and 23 seconds ago: <slush> not really :(
 573 2013-05-27 09:48:45 <sharperguy> Ah fun!
 574 2013-05-27 09:48:58 shesek has joined
 575 2013-05-27 09:49:14 <sharperguy> Is the unit test framework already set up?
 576 2013-05-27 09:49:43 viperhr has joined
 577 2013-05-27 09:51:09 <Subo1978> !seen Subo
 578 2013-05-27 09:51:09 <gribble> I have not seen Subo.
 579 2013-05-27 09:51:29 <Subo1978> !seen Luke-jr
 580 2013-05-27 09:51:29 <gribble> Luke-jr was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 3 minutes and 18 seconds ago: <Luke-Jr> sharperguy: if you want to write code, best to write unit tests
 581 2013-05-27 09:55:49 nizeguy has joined
 582 2013-05-27 09:57:47 <Luke-Jr> sharperguy: yes
 583 2013-05-27 09:58:51 <sharperguy> Yeah I see it now. I guess it shouldn't be too hard to figure out what needs added either.
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 591 2013-05-27 10:12:33 <bitanarchy> is there some kind of minimal bitcoin python tooling set for educational purposes?
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 647 2013-05-27 11:31:38 <btcls> on my website i am building ... i make a distinction between  a "bitcoin client" and "bitcoin wallet" , ... a wallet being where the block chain is stored in the "cloud"
 648 2013-05-27 11:32:17 <btcls> my question is ... is it true that the community is working on compressing the 8gb block chain to make "clients" easier to download ?
 649 2013-05-27 11:32:23 <SomeoneWeird> uhhhhh
 650 2013-05-27 11:32:27 <SomeoneWeird> wallet != blockchain
 651 2013-05-27 11:33:29 <btcls> SomeoneWeird: no the block chain = block chain .... a wallet ON MY WEBSITE = block chain NOT stored locally but rather at another website or cloud based
 652 2013-05-27 11:33:39 <SomeoneWeird> uhhhh
 653 2013-05-27 11:33:40 <SomeoneWeird> okay then.
 654 2013-05-27 11:35:30 <btcls> back to the queston ..."dont ask to ask just ask" .... : is the developer community working on compressing or reducing the download size of the block chain to make it easier for phones and tablets to run CLIENTS and not wallets (block chain stored in cloud) ???
 655 2013-05-27 11:35:50 <SomeoneWeird> well
 656 2013-05-27 11:35:58 <SomeoneWeird> most don't actually store the blockchain in the cloud
 657 2013-05-27 11:36:00 <SomeoneWeird> they use SPV
 658 2013-05-27 11:36:15 <btcls> SPV = ??
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 660 2013-05-27 11:36:43 <SomeoneWeird> google?
 661 2013-05-27 11:36:56 <SomeoneWeird> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Thin_Client_Security#Simplified_Payment_Verification_.28SPV.29
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 663 2013-05-27 11:37:25 <btcls> kk will BING it ...lol ...just trying to be fair to both .. ; )
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 665 2013-05-27 11:38:14 <btcls> SomeoneWeird: thank you for the url
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 668 2013-05-27 11:38:43 <btcls> I would not have known what to search for to get the answer ...again ...ty
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 671 2013-05-27 11:39:59 <SomeoneWeird> how about searching for "SPV bitcoin"
 672 2013-05-27 11:40:00 <SomeoneWeird> :)
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 675 2013-05-27 11:40:50 <btcls> SomeoneWeird: brother why would i search SPV when i never heard of the acronym until now ?? ty
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 680 2013-05-27 11:44:11 <warren> sipa: gmaxwell: I found the exact commits where the exit hang began
 681 2013-05-27 11:47:46 <btcls> SomeoneWeird: once again this room is way beyond my technical expertise, i need to make this simple for housewives, that will buy my product for us nerdies
 682 2013-05-27 11:47:57 <SomeoneWeird> heh
 683 2013-05-27 11:48:00 <btcls> but the explanation must be close to technically correct
 684 2013-05-27 11:48:08 <btcls> or i lose my demographics
 685 2013-05-27 11:48:29 <btcls> give me a couple minutes SomeoneWeird ,,, working on it
 686 2013-05-27 11:48:30 <gribble> Error: "," is not a valid command.
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 688 2013-05-27 11:49:51 <btcls> SomeoneWeird: i want you guys in this room to buy my product ...in btc ... but in needs to be somewhat close to the truth
 689 2013-05-27 11:50:06 <SomeoneWeird> uh, ok.
 690 2013-05-27 11:50:10 <btcls> but simple enough for the girlfriend to buy it for you
 691 2013-05-27 11:50:16 <btcls> rofl ...thats hard
 692 2013-05-27 11:50:25 <SomeoneWeird> yeah, that's not going to happen anytime soon
 693 2013-05-27 11:51:05 <btcls> omg ...oh ya ...the task is much harder then i anticipated ...usually pretty good at explaining stuff simply ...this one is a challenge
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 695 2013-05-27 11:51:35 <btcls> let me stay focussed on this article...brb
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 702 2013-05-27 12:03:07 <btcls> SomeoneWeird: ....i think i got it ...give me like 5 mins to have a smoke and if you agree i will buy you a beer
 703 2013-05-27 12:03:20 <btcls> brb
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 713 2013-05-27 12:14:53 <warren> sipa: gmaxwell: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2690#issuecomment-18494361
 714 2013-05-27 12:15:14 <btcls> Irrespective of whether you decide on a "client" or "wallet", when you download your "client" program or your "wallet" program you are trusting the download location to be honest. Hence, it is important to download your "client" or "wallet" from a trusted source.  The primary re
 715 2013-05-27 12:16:10 <btcls> The primary consideration for most new bitcoiners is the size of the blockchain at 8GB
 716 2013-05-27 12:16:46 <btcls> I will be recommending bitcoin.org client downloads
 717 2013-05-27 12:16:59 <btcls> fyi
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 719 2013-05-27 12:17:42 <btcls> hey Sipa: you came with references from another channel ...lol
 720 2013-05-27 12:18:31 <btcls> I am donating $1.00 Canadian dollar to bitcoin.org on every sale.
 721 2013-05-27 12:18:41 <btcls> this room.
 722 2013-05-27 12:19:02 <btcls> you guys are great ...and i am not joking
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 727 2013-05-27 12:30:03 <SomeoneWeird> " Hence, it is important to download your "client" or "wallet" from a trusted source." < sure, but even if you don't, "legit" versions of the client will be signed
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 738 2013-05-27 12:44:36 <michagogo> SomeoneWeird: Assuming, that is, you trust gavin
 739 2013-05-27 12:44:45 <SomeoneWeird> of course
 740 2013-05-27 12:44:47 <SomeoneWeird> but if you don't
 741 2013-05-27 12:44:48 <SomeoneWeird> lol
 742 2013-05-27 12:45:08 <SomeoneWeird> michagogo, only the windows + osx setups get signed by gavin
 743 2013-05-27 12:45:13 <SomeoneWeird> btw
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 911 2013-05-27 15:24:38 <EvilPete> FYI, the "link with boost_chrono library" change for OSX is required for some other platforms.  Whether it is needed or not depends on how good the optimizer is at eliminating dead code via templates etc.
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 914 2013-05-27 15:25:37 <sipa> EvilPete: interesting
 915 2013-05-27 15:25:48 <sipa> EvilPete: i thought it was mainly dependent on the boost version used
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 917 2013-05-27 15:26:25 <sipa> (well, it is at least that, as on some platforms we're linking against boost versions that don't have boost_chrono yet)
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 921 2013-05-27 15:28:16 <EvilPete> sipa: beats me.  The same freebsd build that needed it before appeared to build fine the last time I tried it.  Maybe I missed something.
 922 2013-05-27 15:28:56 <EvilPete> sipa: I thought the only change was a rebuild from gcc-ancient to clang
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 926 2013-05-27 15:29:12 <EvilPete> I shall shut up and double check
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 951 2013-05-27 15:52:16 <JohnGalt1337> urgh I double spend something by accident with the blockchain.info wallet
 952 2013-05-27 15:56:33 <SomeoneWeird> wat
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 958 2013-05-27 16:02:04 <JDuke128> hey , at last we completed our advanced miner software : http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=221232824690&ssPageName=ADME:L:LCA:US:1123#ht_924wt_1156
 959 2013-05-27 16:02:25 <JohnGalt1337> https://blockchain.info/address/16ZB2WDsFaFBRMtZEZisGocpYMGhf3QHCH?filter=1
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 961 2013-05-27 16:03:02 <JohnGalt1337> I tipped btc on reddit and then it didn't transfer the money instantly away so I thought I had more money than I actually had
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 967 2013-05-27 16:05:05 <JohnGalt1337> will it get cancelled or I can I never use my btc again because it always says:
 968 2013-05-27 16:05:21 <JohnGalt1337> An outpoint is already spent
 969 2013-05-27 16:06:13 <kinlo> just purge hte transaction from your wallet and try again
 970 2013-05-27 16:06:30 <JohnGalt1337> zero clue how to do that
 971 2013-05-27 16:06:49 <kinlo> which btc client?
 972 2013-05-27 16:07:16 <JohnGalt1337> blockchain.info
 973 2013-05-27 16:07:45 <kinlo> so you have access to all your private keys?  you can get a list of those?
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 975 2013-05-27 16:08:17 <JohnGalt1337> yeah somewhere is that option
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 978 2013-05-27 16:08:56 <kinlo> go import those in another client
 979 2013-05-27 16:09:06 <donpdonp> block 238212 (on blockchain.info) is curious. previous and subsequent block contains thousands of btc, but that one is just the reward.
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 981 2013-05-27 16:09:19 <kinlo> for all I care just create a new wallet on blockchain
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 984 2013-05-27 16:09:31 <kinlo> and import the private keys
 985 2013-05-27 16:09:40 <kinlo> that way you won't copy your transactions
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 994 2013-05-27 16:21:31 <JohnGalt1337> An outpoint is already spent
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 997 2013-05-27 16:22:36 <JohnGalt1337> https://blockchain.info/de/tx/fc3bf24f3d644e27c33465927225d54cf3699738200cafa0198b737393911dc5 this is the stupid transaction
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1006 2013-05-27 16:28:22 <kinlo> that just looks like an unconfirmed transacition
1007 2013-05-27 16:28:30 <kinlo> so just wait until it is confirmed?
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1012 2013-05-27 16:29:07 <JohnGalt1337> but it will never be confirmed because it was double spent?
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1014 2013-05-27 16:29:38 <Corndawg> does anyone know if/where I could find the current number of miners mining on the bitcoin network (even if an approximation)?
1015 2013-05-27 16:29:53 <SomeoneWeird> JohnGalt1337, i think you misunderstand what a doublespend is
1016 2013-05-27 16:30:02 <SomeoneWeird> Corndawg, impossible to know
1017 2013-05-27 16:30:25 <donpdonp> JohnGalt1337: if a second transaction was created, that means two unconfirmed transactions are out there. One will get confirmed and the other will fail
1018 2013-05-27 16:30:32 <Corndawg> even an estimation?
1019 2013-05-27 16:30:41 <JohnGalt1337> hm how long will that take?
1020 2013-05-27 16:31:09 <ProfMac> I think there are good estimates for hash rate, but not total number of miners.
1021 2013-05-27 16:31:23 <donpdonp> JohnGalt1337: in theory, 10 minutes.
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1028 2013-05-27 16:31:48 <JohnGalt1337> I had like 3 BTC on my blockchain wallet, tipped 0.7 on reddit and it still showed me 3 so I made a 2.5 bet, then later the reddit donation got through and the 2.5 bet is in the nirwana blocking the 3 btc I have left on my blockchain wallet xD
1029 2013-05-27 16:32:09 <donpdonp> Corndawg: i believe mining pools make up the majority of the hashrate, and some of them might publish a count of miners
1030 2013-05-27 16:32:14 <JohnGalt1337> it has been like 10 hours
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1033 2013-05-27 16:33:32 <donpdonp> JohnGalt1337: if i understand bitcoin correctly, the 0.7 spend also sent 2.3 to a new address, making the 2.5 bet transaction invalid/unconfirmable.
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1038 2013-05-27 16:35:07 <Corndawg> if a transaction is rejected the fee for that tx is also not paid correct?
1039 2013-05-27 16:35:14 <Corndawg> if there was a fee
1040 2013-05-27 16:35:36 <donpdonp> Corndawg: i dont see how it could be any other way
1041 2013-05-27 16:35:49 <JohnGalt1337> yeah but I still have 3 btc in my blockchain wallet and when I want to send something it says: "An outpoint is already spent"
1042 2013-05-27 16:35:56 <JohnGalt1337> I have no clue what that means
1043 2013-05-27 16:36:08 <Corndawg> ok so Galt can just redo exact tx with higher fee to same person
1044 2013-05-27 16:36:24 ThomasV has joined
1045 2013-05-27 16:36:26 <Corndawg> that one will beat the other and the other will 'rollback'   prov solved
1046 2013-05-27 16:36:34 <Corndawg> prov = prob
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1048 2013-05-27 16:37:21 <donpdonp> Corndawg: no need to 'beat' the other transaction. if the 0.7 spend was confirmed, the address where the 2.5 spend was coming from has a balance of 0
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1050 2013-05-27 16:38:54 <donpdonp> JohnGalt1337: if the balance still says 3 then either the 0.7 spend didnt actully happen or blockchain.info's internal accounting is confused
1051 2013-05-27 16:39:33 BDCrate has joined
1052 2013-05-27 16:40:26 <donpdonp> im working on a web wallet of sorts so ive seen how things can get confused
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1056 2013-05-27 16:42:48 nimdAHK_zzz is now known as nimdAHK
1057 2013-05-27 16:44:55 <JohnGalt1337> well I confused myself even more
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1065 2013-05-27 16:54:03 <JohnGalt1337> Well I have to figure this out tomorrow
1066 2013-05-27 16:54:11 <JohnGalt1337> I hope I didn't destroy bitcoin xD
1067 2013-05-27 16:54:37 <sipa> if you did, it wasn't worth keeping it alive anyway
1068 2013-05-27 16:54:51 <sipa> (read: don't worry)
1069 2013-05-27 16:55:01 <JohnGalt1337> ahh finally a new block
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1071 2013-05-27 16:55:30 <sipa> ;;tslb
1072 2013-05-27 16:55:34 <gribble> Time since last block: 1 minute and 31 seconds
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1077 2013-05-27 16:56:03 <BCB> what is the lates with m of n signatures
1078 2013-05-27 16:56:10 <BCB> is there a link to instructions
1079 2013-05-27 16:56:20 <BCB> can it be safely used for escrow
1080 2013-05-27 16:56:22 <BCB> thx
1081 2013-05-27 16:58:38 <BCB> found this on bitcointalk: https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/3966071/raw/1f6cfa4208bc82ee5039876b4f065a705ce64df7/TwoOfThree.sh
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1084 2013-05-27 16:59:34 <JohnGalt1337> Final Balance	-0.2014 BTC dafuq haha
1085 2013-05-27 17:00:23 <SomeoneWeird> ha
1086 2013-05-27 17:00:25 <SomeoneWeird> haxxx
1087 2013-05-27 17:00:36 <JohnGalt1337> https://blockchain.info/address/16ZB2WDsFaFBRMtZEZisGocpYMGhf3QHCH?filter=1#
1088 2013-05-27 17:00:41 <JohnGalt1337> keep pressing f5
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1090 2013-05-27 17:01:16 <JohnGalt1337> Final Balance	-0.50397 BTC
1091 2013-05-27 17:01:25 <JohnGalt1337> Final Balance	0.3956446 BTC
1092 2013-05-27 17:01:34 <chmod755> JohnGalt1337, you owe the network some money!
1093 2013-05-27 17:01:42 <JohnGalt1337> I default :P
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1099 2013-05-27 17:07:27 <chmod755> JohnGalt1337, only -0.5?
1100 2013-05-27 17:07:47 <chmod755> bitcoind shows me weird numbers
1101 2013-05-27 17:08:53 <chmod755> sipa, are you currently working on this?
1102 2013-05-27 17:11:05 akl has joined
1103 2013-05-27 17:11:32 <porquilho> what the fuck
1104 2013-05-27 17:11:40 <porquilho> https://blockchain.info/pt/charts/balance?address=16ZB2WDsFaFBRMtZEZisGocpYMGhf3QHCH
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1107 2013-05-27 17:12:20 <chmod755> lmao
1108 2013-05-27 17:12:22 <saulimus> :D
1109 2013-05-27 17:12:39 <JohnGalt1337> wtf haha
1110 2013-05-27 17:13:19 <BCB> anyone know how to convert a privkey to hex value
1111 2013-05-27 17:13:23 <chmod755> i moved my btc - now the client says "" : -xxxxx.xxxxxxxx,
1112 2013-05-27 17:13:35 <chmod755> and then the positive balances O.o
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1125 2013-05-27 17:18:48 <wumpus> chmod755: bitcoind accounts can have negative balances, the total should always be positive though
1126 2013-05-27 17:19:26 <chmod755> wumpus, just checked it, yep
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1128 2013-05-27 17:24:31 <BCB> is it possible to convert a privkey to hex with bitcoind ??
1129 2013-05-27 17:24:47 <wumpus> BCB: nope
1130 2013-05-27 17:25:17 <BCB> wumpus, so how do I create a multisig transaction?
1131 2013-05-27 17:28:06 <BCB> wompus can I convert a privkey to hex on linux cli
1132 2013-05-27 17:28:57 serp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1133 2013-05-27 17:30:28 <wumpus> maybe pywallet can
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1136 2013-05-27 17:31:10 <wumpus> I know it can parse private keys in both bitcoind format and hex, but not sure about conversion
1137 2013-05-27 17:31:29 <ProfMac> I'm also trying to use a multi-sig transaction.  I'm doing it on testnet :-)  This page has been helpful in converting formats, use the wallet details tab https://www.bitaddress.org/bitaddress.org-v2.4-SHA1-1d5951f6a04dd5a287ac925da4e626870ee58d60.html
1138 2013-05-27 17:32:04 <ProfMac> and if you find any security issues...
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1140 2013-05-27 17:32:59 <wumpus> using an online tool is probably not best for security, though on the testnet it's not really an issue of course
1141 2013-05-27 17:34:12 <ProfMac> it claims to be server side java (or javascript) and the source is on a github.  So, in principle (from the French meaning yeah, right), I could read it and decide for myself.
1142 2013-05-27 17:35:31 <BCB> intersting: so multisig is currently just proof of consept??
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1144 2013-05-27 17:35:48 <kadoban> ProfMac: something like that you'd want to be /client/ side, meaning it's all run on your computer, not the server
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1146 2013-05-27 17:36:18 <ProfMac> um.  still bootstrapping coffee.  It's client side.
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1156 2013-05-27 17:42:50 <BCB> ths ProfMac
1157 2013-05-27 17:42:54 <BCB> thx
1158 2013-05-27 17:42:58 <BCB> I was mistaken
1159 2013-05-27 17:43:06 <BCB> i was trying to convert the priv key
1160 2013-05-27 17:43:09 <EvilPete> wow, people really want microtransactions to work. Are the priority formulas in https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees#Technical_info still accurate?
1161 2013-05-27 17:43:17 AusBitBank has joined
1162 2013-05-27 17:43:29 <BCB> I needed validateaddress  to get the "pubkey"
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1165 2013-05-27 17:45:01 <BCB> NOPE that wasn't it either
1166 2013-05-27 17:45:14 <BCB> value is type int, expected array
1167 2013-05-27 17:46:12 <BCB> that was correct
1168 2013-05-27 17:46:12 <EvilPete> chmod755: bitcoind's view of client side accounts is special.  The word "intuitive" isn't a word that springs to mind for me.
1169 2013-05-27 17:46:27 <BCB> I forgot to enclose the whole think in '[]'
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1182 2013-05-27 17:59:57 <ProfMac> BCB: I did a dumpprivkey from the bitcoin console, then dropped that private key into that web page.  I ended up making a vanity address and sending a tiny amount of money to it.  LOL.  You can try it if you want, it is 1ProfMacyEowpEmbvkUpCx5xQLhXLmrXDb  Anyway, the business of changing formats for the keys filled some of my time yesterday.
1183 2013-05-27 18:00:59 <BCB> ProfMac, nice
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1185 2013-05-27 18:01:55 <sipa> hex privkeys don't have information about about whether their pubkeys are to be compressed or not
1186 2013-05-27 18:02:08 <sipa> so you risk creating different addresses than intended
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1190 2013-05-27 18:05:52 <ProfMac> There is a tBTC faucet for the testnet.
1191 2013-05-27 18:06:27 <ProfMac> and the client is smart enough not to mess up the regular database when you use testnet; both questions that were important yesterday.
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1196 2013-05-27 18:16:38 <BCB> sipa I was mistaken
1197 2013-05-27 18:16:52 <BCB> I was looking for the hex ouput of the bitcoin address
1198 2013-05-27 18:17:05 <BCB> which i found in validateaddress
1199 2013-05-27 18:17:24 <BCB> is that the proper terminology
1200 2013-05-27 18:17:24 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1201 2013-05-27 18:17:26 <BCB> ?
1202 2013-05-27 18:20:54 <BCB> sipa how many confirmations are required for a "listunspent" call to return a value?
1203 2013-05-27 18:21:30 <sipa> 0, afaik
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1207 2013-05-27 18:21:59 <jouke> isn't it a setting to include mempool transactions?
1208 2013-05-27 18:22:19 Transisto has joined
1209 2013-05-27 18:22:55 <sipa> ah, it's configurab;e
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1217 2013-05-27 18:35:49 <BCB> sipa how do I get the scriptPubKey ??
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1220 2013-05-27 18:39:44 <sipa> of what?
1221 2013-05-27 18:40:59 * gfawkes is lookin' out for bitcoins, big big bitcoins.
1222 2013-05-27 18:41:00 <BCB> sipa multi-sig tranascation
1223 2013-05-27 18:41:07 <BCB>  Create the spend-from-multisig transaction. Since the fund-the-multisig transaction
1224 2013-05-27 18:41:07 <BCB> # hasn't been sent yet, I need to give txid, scriptPubKey and redeemScript:
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1226 2013-05-27 18:44:36 <BCB> sipa, I can see it in the decoderawtransaction string, but I was wondering if there was a cmd to output it
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1229 2013-05-27 18:45:50 <diki> lol I say to this "What a "0 transaction miner" does do is affect the future difficulty adjustment."
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1234 2013-05-27 18:50:24 <diki> what the hell
1235 2013-05-27 18:50:25 <diki> Using your 50% empty blocks.  If 1,008 of the blocks broadcast prior to the last difficulty adjustment were from the miner who is solving "empty" blocks, then the difficulty would adjust such that the rest of the network would only solve a block on average every 20 minutes for the next 2,016 blocks.  This 20 minutes for a FIRST confirmation would exist even if the miner who was solving
1236 2013-05-27 18:50:25 <diki> "empty" blocks stopped mining immediately after the adjustment.  The 20 minutes for a FIRST confirmation would exist even if the miner who was solving "empty" blocks suddenly doubled his hash power immediately after the adjustment (and there for started broadcasting 66% of the solved blocks)
1237 2013-05-27 18:50:42 <diki> I tried telling this guy he is wrong
1238 2013-05-27 18:50:46 <diki> but he wouldn't listen
1239 2013-05-27 18:51:59 <grau> ;seen sipa
1240 2013-05-27 18:52:47 <grau> sipa: I have a question to BIP32 test vectors. may I ?
1241 2013-05-27 18:56:01 <michagogo> diki: A block takes the same effort to find regardless of what goes into it
1242 2013-05-27 18:57:01 <diki> Yes I know this.
1243 2013-05-27 18:57:07 <michagogo> If half of all blocks are empty except for coinbase, then on average transactions will take twice as long for first confirmation
1244 2013-05-27 18:57:08 <michagogo> Oh, okay
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1248 2013-05-27 19:06:34 <sipa> grau: NO!
1249 2013-05-27 19:06:41 <sipa> grau: of course :)
1250 2013-05-27 19:07:02 <grau> Thanks, I think there is an error in a vector
1251 2013-05-27 19:07:13 <grau> Test 1
1252 2013-05-27 19:07:16 <BCB> sipa?
1253 2013-05-27 19:07:19 gfawkes has quit (Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~)
1254 2013-05-27 19:07:50 <grau> Chain m/0' gives a private key of: xprv9uHRZZhbkedRdyAuxRNLHRzKKkCxnh5DCiVgo1r2Y1auDnieZFr3LYhjSHBPYxueVFVwAj8PYPvoT3BD9rVgjLqYmcpva2bs1wNWwpp3xqH
1255 2013-05-27 19:07:51 <sipa> grau: shoot
1256 2013-05-27 19:07:53 tonikt has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1257 2013-05-27 19:08:16 <grau> Wheras I think it should be:xprv9uaQuZjkcNuLJiWR2k1M7nukvRwUSAX2Sc3oiuuC6yxeBEuMxTmAP6a9nFS9EdgrMXr7vbgHkebNvLduXwi4YN2EGdjB9LvhhqKpparJ3RE
1258 2013-05-27 19:08:22 <grau> reason:
1259 2013-05-27 19:08:33 <grau> 0488ade4015c1bd6488000000047fdacbd0f1097043b78c63c20c34ef4ed9a111d980047ad16282c7ae623614100edb2e14f9ee77d26dd93b4ecede8d16ed408ce149b6cd80b0715a2d911a0afead8ba5b5d
1260 2013-05-27 19:08:33 <grau> 0488ade4013442193e0000008047fdacbd0f1097043b78c63c20c34ef4ed9a111d980047ad16282c7ae623614100edb2e14f9ee77d26dd93b4ecede8d16ed408ce149b6cd80b0715a2d911a0afea5847134c
1261 2013-05-27 19:08:52 <grau> The first is the serialized correct in base64
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1263 2013-05-27 19:08:58 <grau> the second is the vector
1264 2013-05-27 19:08:59 <sipa> hex, you mean
1265 2013-05-27 19:09:11 <grau> you see that the parent code is incorrect in the vector
1266 2013-05-27 19:09:21 <grau> and also the sequence is not MSB
1267 2013-05-27 19:09:48 <sipa> thanks, let me have a look
1268 2013-05-27 19:10:30 <grau> good news is that we match on everithing except last step of serialization
1269 2013-05-27 19:11:17 gfawkes has joined
1270 2013-05-27 19:12:03 <sipa> you're right about he MSB encoding of the index
1271 2013-05-27 19:12:16 <sipa> but i don't see where you get the different parent fingerprint from
1272 2013-05-27 19:12:31 serp has joined
1273 2013-05-27 19:12:38 <grau> the parent is also quoted in the detailed vector and is 15c1bd648
1274 2013-05-27 19:12:55 <BCB> sipa: I found it
1275 2013-05-27 19:13:40 parasciidic has joined
1276 2013-05-27 19:14:02 <sipa> grau: i don't see it
1277 2013-05-27 19:14:09 <sipa> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0032_TestVectors
1278 2013-05-27 19:14:16 <sipa> [Chain m]
1279 2013-05-27 19:14:24 <sipa> fpr: 0x3442193e
1280 2013-05-27 19:14:29 <grau> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0032_TestVectors
1281 2013-05-27 19:14:30 zer0def has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1282 2013-05-27 19:15:20 <grau> that seems to be one error on both sides :)
1283 2013-05-27 19:15:24 SwedFTP has joined
1284 2013-05-27 19:15:34 <grau> I used the fpr of the child
1285 2013-05-27 19:15:36 B0g4r7__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1286 2013-05-27 19:15:56 <sipa> well it has to be the fingerprint of the parent, as it's used to link parents with children
1287 2013-05-27 19:16:00 B0g4r7 has joined
1288 2013-05-27 19:16:34 <grau> I understand. So I correct that, will you correct the MSB of the index?
1289 2013-05-27 19:16:48 <sipa> yes, working on it
1290 2013-05-27 19:18:31 Eizy has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1291 2013-05-27 19:18:48 <sipa> ok, updated the detailed vectors
1292 2013-05-27 19:18:58 <sipa> i'll update bip32 itself if you can verify it :)
1293 2013-05-27 19:19:26 Insti has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1294 2013-05-27 19:19:30 Neozonz has joined
1295 2013-05-27 19:20:00 Eizy has joined
1296 2013-05-27 19:20:06 Insti has joined
1297 2013-05-27 19:20:32 mollison has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1298 2013-05-27 19:21:14 <grau> you updated the vectors already ?
1299 2013-05-27 19:21:17 <sipa> yes
1300 2013-05-27 19:21:21 <grau> that is quick
1301 2013-05-27 19:21:29 <grau> I m checking
1302 2013-05-27 19:21:38 <sipa> well i have a program that generates the test vectors
1303 2013-05-27 19:22:21 serp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1304 2013-05-27 19:22:45 sacarlson has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1305 2013-05-27 19:23:35 damientrog has quit (Quit: damientrog)
1306 2013-05-27 19:26:55 datagutt has quit (Quit: kthxbai)
1307 2013-05-27 19:27:00 LainZ has joined
1308 2013-05-27 19:27:49 <sipa> the nice thing about base58 is that a one-bit mistake results in a huge encoded difference
1309 2013-05-27 19:31:10 <warren> grrr
1310 2013-05-27 19:31:12 <warren> ************************
1311 2013-05-27 19:31:12 <warren> EXCEPTION: St13runtime_error
1312 2013-05-27 19:31:12 <warren> CDB() : can't open database file wallet.dat, error -30974
1313 2013-05-27 19:31:12 <warren> bitcoin in Runaway exception
1314 2013-05-27 19:31:28 <warren> bitcoin-qt 0.8.2rc3 gitian
1315 2013-05-27 19:31:42 <sipa> :(
1316 2013-05-27 19:32:22 bitRipperX has joined
1317 2013-05-27 19:32:45 gjj_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1318 2013-05-27 19:33:07 <michagogo> ;;google site:github.com inurl:bitcoin inurl:gitian.sigs
1319 2013-05-27 19:33:08 <gribble> bitcoin/gitian.sigs · GitHub: <https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs>; Commit History · bitcoin/gitian.sigs · GitHub: <https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs/commits?author=luke-jr>; public bitcoin / gitian.sigs - GitHub: <https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs/>
1320 2013-05-27 19:33:48 Neozonz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1321 2013-05-27 19:34:20 owowo has joined
1322 2013-05-27 19:34:32 <warren> sipa: that's probably after all the kill -9's to recover from the hanging bitcoin-qt
1323 2013-05-27 19:34:53 <warren> sipa: want this corrupted wallet.dat?  It's empty, created just for this testing.
1324 2013-05-27 19:34:54 jeewee has joined
1325 2013-05-27 19:35:06 <sipa> warren: sure
1326 2013-05-27 19:35:15 <warren> hold
1327 2013-05-27 19:38:21 sacarlson has joined
1328 2013-05-27 19:38:42 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1329 2013-05-27 19:39:39 lolcookie__ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1330 2013-05-27 19:40:28 RazielZ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1331 2013-05-27 19:41:14 BITTEeinBIT has joined
1332 2013-05-27 19:43:38 RazielZ has joined
1333 2013-05-27 19:43:45 ColinT has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1334 2013-05-27 19:44:33 dansmith_btc has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1335 2013-05-27 19:47:46 B0g4r7 has joined
1336 2013-05-27 19:49:15 <sipa> warren: i have no problem at all opening your wallet.dat file
1337 2013-05-27 19:49:23 <sipa> what bdb version?
1338 2013-05-27 19:50:21 <warren> sipa: db-4.8
1339 2013-05-27 19:50:30 Blackreign has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1340 2013-05-27 19:50:44 <sipa> and the wallet file wasn;t touched by any more recent bdb?
1341 2013-05-27 19:51:01 <sipa> (i'm using 5.1)
1342 2013-05-27 19:51:26 <grau> sipa: Test 1 is fine
1343 2013-05-27 19:51:45 <sipa> is there a problem with 2, or did you just didn't check yet?
1344 2013-05-27 19:51:46 <grau> sipa: Test 2, we agree on m/0/2147483647' but disagree on m/0/2147483647'/1
1345 2013-05-27 19:51:55 <sipa> interesting
1346 2013-05-27 19:52:47 Blackreign has joined
1347 2013-05-27 19:52:57 <grau> Yes, I am also puzzled
1348 2013-05-27 19:53:11 <sipa> can you post your hex serialized keys?
1349 2013-05-27 19:55:49 <warren> sipa: never 5.1
1350 2013-05-27 19:56:01 <warren> sipa: only db versions I have locally are 5.3 and 4.8
1351 2013-05-27 19:56:14 porquilho has joined
1352 2013-05-27 19:56:18 <sipa> well maybe you have one version linked with 5.3, and used that accidentally?
1353 2013-05-27 19:56:43 <warren> No.  I uninstalled the headers for that one.
1354 2013-05-27 19:57:50 dansmith_btc has joined
1355 2013-05-27 19:57:50 dansmith_btc has quit (Changing host)
1356 2013-05-27 19:57:50 dansmith_btc has joined
1357 2013-05-27 19:59:10 tyn has joined
1358 2013-05-27 19:59:16 <grau> sipa: http://pastebin.com/WCzAUTft
1359 2013-05-27 20:00:05 <warren> Hmmm, it would be helpful to be able to static link only specific libraries during a bitcoin build.
1360 2013-05-27 20:00:08 <warren> right now it's all or nothing
1361 2013-05-27 20:01:18 <Luke-Jr> warren: it's quite possible to use 4.8 headers and still link to 5.3
1362 2013-05-27 20:01:19 <warren> sipa: oh!
1363 2013-05-27 20:01:27 <sipa> grau: hmm, it is longer than mine?
1364 2013-05-27 20:01:45 <warren> sipa: that error happens when I exit bitcoin-qt, not open the wallet
1365 2013-05-27 20:02:19 <warren> Luke-Jr: if I link to db-5.3 I have other strange bad behavior that I'm not seeing now.
1366 2013-05-27 20:02:33 <grau> sipa: do not get what you mean
1367 2013-05-27 20:02:37 <warren> sipa: http://pastebin.com/vk5HApcM
1368 2013-05-27 20:02:50 <sipa> grau: your hex encoded privkey is longer than mine?
1369 2013-05-27 20:03:07 <grau> it is the hex encoded serialization
1370 2013-05-27 20:03:08 <michagogo> [22:36:35] <warren> Hmmm, it would be helpful to be able to static link only specific libraries during a bitcoin build.
1371 2013-05-27 20:03:13 <michagogo> gitian does that, no>
1372 2013-05-27 20:03:15 <michagogo> no?*
1373 2013-05-27 20:03:22 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
1374 2013-05-27 20:03:27 <grau> I send you private key then.
1375 2013-05-27 20:03:36 richcollins has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1376 2013-05-27 20:03:40 <warren> michagogo: gitian static links everything
1377 2013-05-27 20:03:52 richcollins has joined
1378 2013-05-27 20:03:58 <warren> michagogo: It would be helpful to static link only specific things.
1379 2013-05-27 20:04:04 <michagogo> Remind me what that is again>
1380 2013-05-27 20:04:08 <michagogo> ?*
1381 2013-05-27 20:04:19 <warren> what do you mean?
1382 2013-05-27 20:04:40 <michagogo> Static linking
1383 2013-05-27 20:04:58 <grau> sipa: http://pastebin.com/XAUqErYd just private keys
1384 2013-05-27 20:05:22 <sipa> grau: serialized extended priv/pubkeys are 78 bytes, so 156 hex characters
1385 2013-05-27 20:05:31 <sipa> yours are 164?
1386 2013-05-27 20:05:37 cap2002 has joined
1387 2013-05-27 20:05:48 <sipa> though for the other ones, the first 156 characters match
1388 2013-05-27 20:06:03 <sipa> oh! you have the checksum included
1389 2013-05-27 20:06:05 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1390 2013-05-27 20:07:02 <warren> Can other people see if this wallet.dat shows the error message during bitcoin-qt exit?   http://togami.com/~warren/temp/wallet.dat
1391 2013-05-27 20:07:15 <warren> http://pastebin.com/vk5HApcM  <----- error message during exit
1392 2013-05-27 20:07:21 <sipa> i get that error too
1393 2013-05-27 20:07:26 <warren> ok good
1394 2013-05-27 20:07:40 <warren> should I file this issue?
1395 2013-05-27 20:07:59 <sipa> yes please
1396 2013-05-27 20:08:01 <warren> k
1397 2013-05-27 20:08:21 tyn has joined
1398 2013-05-27 20:09:25 Jackneill has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1399 2013-05-27 20:10:23 cads has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1400 2013-05-27 20:11:05 cap2002 has quit ()
1401 2013-05-27 20:11:05 AtashiCon has quit (Quit: AtashiCon)
1402 2013-05-27 20:13:36 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2701  bitcoin-qt St13runtime_error during exit
1403 2013-05-27 20:14:23 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1404 2013-05-27 20:14:42 <sipa> grau: the parent fingerprint is already different
1405 2013-05-27 20:15:50 thegimp has joined
1406 2013-05-27 20:15:50 <grau> thanks, I bet it is some unsigned vs. signed shit again...
1407 2013-05-27 20:16:39 <grau> I hate not having unsigned in java
1408 2013-05-27 20:17:07 robocoin has joined
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1410 2013-05-27 20:17:07 robocoin has joined
1411 2013-05-27 20:17:10 BurtyBB has joined
1412 2013-05-27 20:17:19 <sipa> 0531a507 vs 054cd195
1413 2013-05-27 20:17:25 richcollins has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1414 2013-05-27 20:17:30 * Luke-Jr convinces grau to abandon Java
1415 2013-05-27 20:17:31 normanrichards has joined
1416 2013-05-27 20:18:14 <sipa> wait
1417 2013-05-27 20:18:26 <sipa> off-by-one
1418 2013-05-27 20:19:02 richcollins has joined
1419 2013-05-27 20:19:53 AtashiCon has joined
1420 2013-05-27 20:20:36 BurtyB has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1421 2013-05-27 20:20:53 funky has joined
1422 2013-05-27 20:20:59 <funky> hi folks
1423 2013-05-27 20:21:36 <funky> I am thinking here how possible it is to mine merged mined coins like devcoin with modified client that keeps 100% of coins mined
1424 2013-05-27 20:21:51 <funky> I sense there might  be a way to do it
1425 2013-05-27 20:23:53 ovidiusoft has joined
1426 2013-05-27 20:24:05 <michagogo> funky: Could you elaborate?
1427 2013-05-27 20:24:44 serp has joined
1428 2013-05-27 20:24:59 <Luke-Jr> funky: this is #BITcoin-dev
1429 2013-05-27 20:25:00 tyn has joined
1430 2013-05-27 20:25:05 <funky> michagogo: I try, I just open devcoin code to look how it takes 80% from all coins mined
1431 2013-05-27 20:25:19 <funky> I sense there might be way to play with it
1432 2013-05-27 20:25:35 <funky> once I dig more into code I might be able to be more specific
1433 2013-05-27 20:25:58 <warren> everyone else running 0.8.2 getting lots of these?  ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : nonstandard transaction type
1434 2013-05-27 20:26:00 <Luke-Jr> funky: scamcoins are off topic here
1435 2013-05-27 20:26:09 <Luke-Jr> warren: probably
1436 2013-05-27 20:27:00 <EvilPete> warren: that's the dust trimming in action
1437 2013-05-27 20:27:24 <warren> hmm.  mining pools need 0.8.2 asap
1438 2013-05-27 20:27:54 <EvilPete> well, not dust trimming but rather dropping the non-economical transactions
1439 2013-05-27 20:29:55 <michagogo> warren: Well, any sensible miner won't use prerelease software
1440 2013-05-27 20:30:13 <michagogo> warren: IIRC prereleases have a banner saying specifically not to use them for mining
1441 2013-05-27 20:30:15 <EvilPete> warren: more specifically, this patch set https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2577
1442 2013-05-27 20:30:21 <warren> michagogo: it's safe enough to add the IsDust() at least.
1443 2013-05-27 20:30:59 <Luke-Jr> warren: most pools are completely neglegent in spam filtering already
1444 2013-05-27 20:30:59 andyh2 has joined
1445 2013-05-27 20:31:03 <michagogo> warren: IIRC that's not the only change?
1446 2013-05-27 20:31:19 <michagogo> warren: Anyway, them doing that won't stop those errors
1447 2013-05-27 20:31:29 andyh2 has quit (Client Quit)
1448 2013-05-27 20:31:44 <Jere_Jones> I'm having trouble understanding this snippet of code: (char*)&vchData.end()[0]
1449 2013-05-27 20:31:44 <michagogo> warren: Anything that gets into a block is considered valid
1450 2013-05-27 20:32:00 <Jere_Jones> vchData is a vector<unsigned char> if it makes a difference.
1451 2013-05-27 20:32:08 <michagogo> warren: Those errors are coming from =<0.8.1 clients relaying them to you
1452 2013-05-27 20:32:28 <Jere_Jones> That snippet looks like it is trying to grab the address of end().  Isn't that kinda undefined?
1453 2013-05-27 20:32:29 <warren> michagogo: I know
1454 2013-05-27 20:32:41 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
1455 2013-05-27 20:32:43 <warren> michagogo: I was in favor of this kind of spam filtering months ago
1456 2013-05-27 20:33:03 <Luke-Jr> Jere_Jones: where is that? -.-
1457 2013-05-27 20:33:07 root2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1458 2013-05-27 20:33:27 <sipa> Jere_Jones: it's not undefined
1459 2013-05-27 20:33:32 root2 has joined
1460 2013-05-27 20:33:38 <sipa> Jere_Jones: it's a pointer to the first character after the vector's data
1461 2013-05-27 20:33:38 <Jere_Jones> Constructor of CDataStream
1462 2013-05-27 20:33:40 <Luke-Jr> sipa: it's not pretty code, either :P
1463 2013-05-27 20:34:04 <sipa> well, it's typical C++ to have end iterators be one past the actual data
1464 2013-05-27 20:34:05 <Jere_Jones> Full line: CDataStream(const std::vector<unsigned char>& vchIn, int nTypeIn, int nVersionIn) : vch((char*)&vchIn.begin()[0], (char*)&vchIn.end()[0])
1465 2013-05-27 20:34:23 <sipa> so it's just converting those iterators to byte pointers
1466 2013-05-27 20:34:37 <Luke-Jr> yes, doesn't make it any less ugly
1467 2013-05-27 20:34:40 <Jere_Jones> end() doesn't even have to be a pointer.  It could return a default constructed iterator.  It should just mean "too far", right?
1468 2013-05-27 20:35:00 <Luke-Jr> Jere_Jones: that's why it dereferences it with [0]
1469 2013-05-27 20:35:09 <warren> michagogo: If it were up to me, the spam protection would be much stronger.
1470 2013-05-27 20:35:17 <funky> how people able to spam?
1471 2013-05-27 20:35:27 <funky> by sending very small transactions?
1472 2013-05-27 20:35:56 <warren> I'm adding funky to my ignore list.
1473 2013-05-27 20:35:56 <grau> sipa: this just does not make sense. How can we agree on "Test2 m/0/2147483647'" but not on "Test2 m/0/2147483647'/1" while we have agreement on all Test 1
1474 2013-05-27 20:36:07 <sipa> grau: i don't understand it either
1475 2013-05-27 20:36:22 <sipa> but i don't know your code :)
1476 2013-05-27 20:36:32 <grau> would you please double check the 2147483647 vs. 2147483646
1477 2013-05-27 20:36:53 viperhr has quit (Read error: No route to host)
1478 2013-05-27 20:36:57 <funky> many people use windows client they are not reading chain messages anyway
1479 2013-05-27 20:36:58 <Jere_Jones> I need to find a work around for that because I'm fairly certain that dereferencing end() should be illegal.
1480 2013-05-27 20:37:18 <sipa> Jere_Jones: a workaround would be vchIn.begin()[vchIn.size()]
1481 2013-05-27 20:37:29 viperhr has joined
1482 2013-05-27 20:37:36 <sipa> funky: "chain messages" ?
1483 2013-05-27 20:37:45 <grau> my fault
1484 2013-05-27 20:37:51 <grau> typo in the test case
1485 2013-05-27 20:37:53 <Luke-Jr> sipa: vchIn.data()[vchIn.size()] :p
1486 2013-05-27 20:38:01 <sipa> Luke-Jr: isn't data() C++11?
1487 2013-05-27 20:38:08 <funky> sipa i am just wondering what kind of spam you talk about?
1488 2013-05-27 20:38:09 <Luke-Jr> AFAIK just const_data
1489 2013-05-27 20:38:15 <sipa> ah
1490 2013-05-27 20:38:19 <grau> damn copy paste
1491 2013-05-27 20:38:22 <sipa> yes, less ugly in that case
1492 2013-05-27 20:38:25 tyn has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1493 2013-05-27 20:38:26 <sipa> grau: good to hear!
1494 2013-05-27 20:38:35 <Luke-Jr> oh
1495 2013-05-27 20:38:40 <Luke-Jr> data is too, for vectors
1496 2013-05-27 20:39:06 <sipa> funky: tiny transactions that are very expensive for the network to maintain
1497 2013-05-27 20:39:07 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I don't know if there's any guarantee vectors store their data sequentially and unpadded?
1498 2013-05-27 20:39:15 <warren> Does bitcoin allow wallet.dat to be symlinked?
1499 2013-05-27 20:39:23 <sipa> Luke-Jr: they're guaranteed to be sequential, afaik; and padding isn't relevant
1500 2013-05-27 20:39:24 <Jere_Jones> Luke-Jr: There is
1501 2013-05-27 20:39:36 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1502 2013-05-27 20:39:49 <funky> sipa thats what I though, however each miner can choose how much it wants to process transactions
1503 2013-05-27 20:40:07 <sipa> funky: i'm not a miner, and my disk is being filled
1504 2013-05-27 20:40:07 richcollins has joined
1505 2013-05-27 20:40:17 <michagogo> funky: Yeah, and if a transaction does get into a block, it's considered valid
1506 2013-05-27 20:40:26 <funky> sipa: how many gigs its atm?
1507 2013-05-27 20:40:49 <sipa> enough
1508 2013-05-27 20:40:56 <sipa> 7-8 i guess
1509 2013-05-27 20:41:06 <buZz> almost 9
1510 2013-05-27 20:41:07 <funky> most people have 200 GB disks unless we talk usb disks
1511 2013-05-27 20:41:09 <TheUni> Jere_Jones: pretty sure you're looking for back()
1512 2013-05-27 20:41:26 <Jere_Jones> That would give me the last element.  I need one past that.
1513 2013-05-27 20:41:29 <sipa> no, back() returns the last element
1514 2013-05-27 20:41:36 <TheUni> i thought that's what you wanted?
1515 2013-05-27 20:41:37 <Luke-Jr> most people don't want their software to use 5% of their disk
1516 2013-05-27 20:41:40 <sipa> you need an end iterator in char* form
1517 2013-05-27 20:41:42 BurtyBB is now known as BurtyB
1518 2013-05-27 20:41:52 <sipa> funky: that's not the problem really
1519 2013-05-27 20:42:08 <funky> sipa exactly what I think
1520 2013-05-27 20:42:10 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1521 2013-05-27 20:42:20 <sipa> funky: it's that some transaction produce such tiny outputs that they marginally cost more to spend than they are worth
1522 2013-05-27 20:42:35 <sipa> funky: there is n reason why the network shouldn't actively fight such dust
1523 2013-05-27 20:43:01 <funky> sipa so say someone got tiny amount of btc he cant even send it if he got no money to pay for tx fees
1524 2013-05-27 20:43:15 <funky> is there some min fee atm more less agreed upon?
1525 2013-05-27 20:43:19 <TheUni> Jere_Jones: not sure what you're after then? anything past the last element is undefined
1526 2013-05-27 20:43:29 <midnightmagic> funky: Correct! Unless you find a miner who's willing to include it in their block for you.
1527 2013-05-27 20:43:34 <sipa> funky: the dust filtering uses whatever fee policy you have configured yourself
1528 2013-05-27 20:43:53 <gmaxwell> funky: the amounts in question cost more to spend marginally then they return, so even if you have a ton funds, spending them makes you poorer. (sorry if I'm confused on the discussion, only moderately watching)
1529 2013-05-27 20:44:04 <sipa> funky: so it means you won't relay transactions that _create_ dust (not consume it) which you yourself think is uneconomical
1530 2013-05-27 20:44:52 <jouke> Does the wallet also keep track of the settings I set for mintxfee?
1531 2013-05-27 20:44:58 <midnightmagic> ..  which wouldn't be so hard, as legitimate small transactions from known people aren't the main problem that anti-dust is trying to address.
1532 2013-05-27 20:45:00 <funky> midnightmagic: I think 1 miner wont be enough for block to be accepted, chances that my mate can solve next block and add my spam at 0% fee are small unless he got giant hash rate
1533 2013-05-27 20:45:22 <sipa> funky: if he mines a block, it will be accepted
1534 2013-05-27 20:45:24 <midnightmagic> funky: So make more friends.
1535 2013-05-27 20:45:27 <Jere_Jones> TheUni: That's exactly what I was saying. :)
1536 2013-05-27 20:45:29 <sipa> funky: the chance may be small, but it is not relevant
1537 2013-05-27 20:45:57 <funky> midnightmagic: lol I have better things to ask them :D
1538 2013-05-27 20:46:07 <grau> sipa: We agree on all tests :)
1539 2013-05-27 20:46:13 <sipa> grau: \o/
1540 2013-05-27 20:46:42 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: if you have a ton funds, you can just bundle it with a high priority coin
1541 2013-05-27 20:47:11 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: well, kinda, but you could instead use up that same priority with some other higher value txin.
1542 2013-05-27 20:47:33 <gmaxwell> (so the cost there is lost priority oppturnity, rather than lost coin)
1543 2013-05-27 20:47:57 <funky> if some say playing satoshi dice 24/7 with 0.0001 btc yes its tiny however say total of his funds is 1000 btc, so  by spending then in such way he/she incurrs more cost in terms of transfer fee
1544 2013-05-27 20:47:58 <grau> sipa: change https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0032 too
1545 2013-05-27 20:48:10 <sipa> grau: will do
1546 2013-05-27 20:48:13 <funky> sipa: how i can for example make dust filter work?
1547 2013-05-27 20:48:21 <sipa> funky: it's in 0.8.2
1548 2013-05-27 20:48:41 <midnightmagic> funky: :-/ Deny anything with 1dice in it.
1549 2013-05-27 20:48:50 <sipa> funky: the total amount is not important, it's the amount of the actual coins
1550 2013-05-27 20:48:51 <funky> plus if i am the only one say doing it, still others might process for lower fees. what is default fee in linux and win client?
1551 2013-05-27 20:49:24 <funky> sipa you mean nr of transfers?
1552 2013-05-27 20:49:35 <EvilPete> funky: the bitcoin client has been dropping transactions with not enough fees for a while.  eg: ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : not enough fees 8f353be3db2aaf0d75d88cf6f400a402e604cd072f55741aee6765b7ca58bc7d, 0 < 10000
1553 2013-05-27 20:49:39 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1554 2013-05-27 20:49:45 <midnightmagic> funky: The more people decide to filter, the more legitimate transaction space opens up for real people.
1555 2013-05-27 20:50:14 <midnightmagic> (and the more real economic activity is represented in the blocks mined for that matter)
1556 2013-05-27 20:50:25 <funky> I meant if person is economical he send 1000btc in 1 go, if he wants to spam and spend more money yes he can send then in 0.0001 chunks
1557 2013-05-27 20:50:58 <sipa> funky: if you have 100000 outputs of 0.01 BTC, you need a transaction with 100000 inputs to consume it
1558 2013-05-27 20:50:59 <Luke-Jr> no more paying bills you don't like in satoshis!
1559 2013-05-27 20:51:17 <EvilPete> funky: actually no he can't. the p2p network will drop those spam transactions in the dirt unless they come with fees.
1560 2013-05-27 20:51:31 <funky> thats what I mean if he pays min fees
1561 2013-05-27 20:51:44 <sipa> funky: the min fees for such a transaction would be huge
1562 2013-05-27 20:51:48 <funky> what is min fee, is it preset in clients?
1563 2013-05-27 20:51:52 <warren> sipa: hence i'im working on a fee formula that charges a fee for all outputs, a higher fee for uneconomic dust, and cheaper inputs.
1564 2013-05-27 20:52:01 <sipa> funky: 0.0001 BTC per kilobyte
1565 2013-05-27 20:52:05 <EvilPete> funky: right now, it is hard coded. in 0.8.2 it can be adjusted at runtime
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1567 2013-05-27 20:52:27 <funky> ok so matter is to do with block headers space?
1568 2013-05-27 20:52:40 <funky> i think each can fit 500,000 transactions?
1569 2013-05-27 20:52:48 <funky> I havent checked for long time :)
1570 2013-05-27 20:52:54 <EvilPete> funky: anybody who complains about how long the initial sync takes is somebody who will appreciate reduction in spam transactions.
1571 2013-05-27 20:53:04 <sipa> funky: block headers have nothing to do with transactions
1572 2013-05-27 20:53:16 <sipa> funky: block data can currently contain up to 4000 transactions or so
1573 2013-05-27 20:53:38 <sipa> funky: but that's only if the transactions are small
1574 2013-05-27 20:53:56 <sipa> consuming 1000 outputs of 0.0001 BTC will result in a huge transactions
1575 2013-05-27 20:54:06 <funky> sipa so say I send 10,000 transactions, how then they can all be updated with 1 block been solved?
1576 2013-05-27 20:54:13 <EvilPete> 148 bytes per input
1577 2013-05-27 20:54:14 <funky> some would have to wait for next block?
1578 2013-05-27 20:54:16 <sipa> funky: impossible
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1580 2013-05-27 20:54:22 <sipa> they can't fit in one block
1581 2013-05-27 20:54:34 <funky> sipa so someone can spam btc chain with tons of small transactions?
1582 2013-05-27 20:54:39 <funky> if they pay fee
1583 2013-05-27 20:54:55 <EvilPete> funky: yes, that is exactly what the faucet folks are doing
1584 2013-05-27 20:55:07 <funky> but most people expect fund transfer with 6 confirms aka 6 blocks
1585 2013-05-27 20:55:25 <sipa> well there will be a fee market
1586 2013-05-27 20:55:25 <funky> if faucets and dice people pump up volume it might take longer
1587 2013-05-27 20:55:33 <EvilPete> funky: they structure the spam so they minimize their fees but the recipients are screwed.. they likely can't ever spend the payments they get without spending MORE on fees than they started with
1588 2013-05-27 20:55:34 <sipa> if you want faster confirmations, you'll need to pay more fees
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1590 2013-05-27 20:55:55 <funky> yes I like idea to pay more for faster confirms
1591 2013-05-27 20:56:02 <funky> I already pay for it on mtgox :)
1592 2013-05-27 20:56:37 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1593 2013-05-27 20:56:48 <funky> EvilPete: lol they are tricky operators
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1597 2013-05-27 20:58:18 <EvilPete> funky: here's the problem. a transaction takes 148 buytes per input, and 34 bytes per output. If you take 1 btc input and blow it into 1000 fragments your fee is based on a 34 k transaction, ie 34k x 0.0001/kb.
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1599 2013-05-27 20:59:32 <EvilPete> funky: but suppose an end user wants to spend that.. 1000 inputs x 148 = 148k transaction.. they pay fees based on a 148k transaction. and likely its more than they received in the first place becaise facuet/referral spam is actually much smaller amounts
1600 2013-05-27 21:00:31 <funky> i see
1601 2013-05-27 21:00:32 <EvilPete> fees are based on block size, not btc amounts. when somebody accumulates a bunch of this stuff and discoveres it takes more btc to spend it than they have, they just delete the wallet.
1602 2013-05-27 21:00:49 <EvilPete> so our clients have to track this "unspent" output forever
1603 2013-05-27 21:00:53 <funky> maybe post on forums about it
1604 2013-05-27 21:00:59 <funky> most dont know it
1605 2013-05-27 21:01:05 <EvilPete> funky: dude.. its all over the forums.
1606 2013-05-27 21:01:08 <funky> i feel most think fee is linked to btc amount
1607 2013-05-27 21:01:33 <funky> ooo btc developers got private key they can send message to win clients right?
1608 2013-05-27 21:01:35 B0g4r7 has joined
1609 2013-05-27 21:01:43 <funky> saying pls check sticky in forum about fees
1610 2013-05-27 21:02:09 <EvilPete> funky: reading is hard.
1611 2013-05-27 21:02:09 <sipa> funky: we can't use the alert system for such generic information things
1612 2013-05-27 21:02:16 <sipa> it should only be used for real alerts
1613 2013-05-27 21:02:30 <EvilPete> funky: it is extremely well documented.  Its just the reading that is lacking.
1614 2013-05-27 21:03:41 <sipa> meh, i odn't think most software makes it very clear
1615 2013-05-27 21:03:58 <sipa> and i think it's the responsability of wallet software to inform people about it
1616 2013-05-27 21:04:03 <funky> nods
1617 2013-05-27 21:04:05 <sipa> but making usable software is hard :)
1618 2013-05-27 21:04:10 <funky> I can try :)
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1620 2013-05-27 21:04:31 <funky> but I ofter overestimate my abilities short term lol
1621 2013-05-27 21:05:17 <EvilPete> My brief look at the coincontrol patches seemed to come the closest of any that I've seen for making this presentable
1622 2013-05-27 21:05:34 <funky> my idea nr2, on the site that host win client, on top of downloading link large red letter how to avoid satoshi dice fees scam.
1623 2013-05-27 21:05:35 <funky> :P
1624 2013-05-27 21:05:40 <funky> something like that
1625 2013-05-27 21:05:45 <sipa> EvilPete: that's a huge problem
1626 2013-05-27 21:05:46 <funky> *letters
1627 2013-05-27 21:05:56 funky is now known as funky_pizza
1628 2013-05-27 21:06:10 <sipa> EvilPete: as i don't think people should need dig into coin control
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1630 2013-05-27 21:06:26 <sipa> (it's essentially breaking the wallet abstraction completely)
1631 2013-05-27 21:06:41 <michagogo> funky_pizza: SD fee scam?
1632 2013-05-27 21:07:20 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
1633 2013-05-27 21:07:30 <sipa> SD adapter their minimal size outputs afaik
1634 2013-05-27 21:08:53 <Jere_Jones> Well... crap... Apparently there a lot of these: &compr[compr.size()]
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1636 2013-05-27 21:09:13 <Jere_Jones> Which throws if there is any bounds checking in operator[]
1637 2013-05-27 21:09:31 <sipa> well apparently there is none
1638 2013-05-27 21:09:37 <funky_pizza> i am going to eat, i saw maaku is working on btc chain trimming ideas
1639 2013-05-27 21:09:46 <funky_pizza> he posted about it on forums
1640 2013-05-27 21:09:51 <sipa> chain trimming is probably the worst name for it
1641 2013-05-27 21:10:09 <maaku> funky_pizza: it doesn't do any pruning/trimming
1642 2013-05-27 21:10:14 <Jere_Jones> I'm using the vs11 chain and in a debug build, there is. :(
1643 2013-05-27 21:10:20 <Luke-Jr> [] is allowed to do bounds checking?
1644 2013-05-27 21:10:47 <sipa> no
1645 2013-05-27 21:11:01 <sipa> Jere_Jones: use a C++ compiler :)
1646 2013-05-27 21:11:06 <Jere_Jones> :P
1647 2013-05-27 21:11:17 <sipa> but yes, a cleaner solution would be nice
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1651 2013-05-27 21:11:53 <EvilPete> sipa: at least bitcoin-qt no longer recommends 0.1 as the default fee..
1652 2013-05-27 21:13:25 <Jere_Jones> I've seen several requests for building bitcoin in visual studio.  It is also my prefered IDE (being a windows user).  Seems like a good project.  I was quite happy to finally get the thing to build at all.
1653 2013-05-27 21:13:54 <BlueMatt> visual studio???
1654 2013-05-27 21:13:57 <BlueMatt> oh god
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1656 2013-05-27 21:14:25 <Luke-Jr> I know right
1657 2013-05-27 21:14:29 <Luke-Jr> it doesn't even support C99 yet
1658 2013-05-27 21:14:37 <Jere_Jones> And I don't think it ever will.
1659 2013-05-27 21:14:44 <warren> It seems perfectly reasonable to require Linux to run a Linux virtual machine to build win32 binaries. =)
1660 2013-05-27 21:14:46 <sipa> the non-nice thing about it is forcing us to work around some bugs
1661 2013-05-27 21:15:07 <Luke-Jr> sipa: on the contrary, that is the nice thing :P
1662 2013-05-27 21:15:15 <sipa> how so?
1663 2013-05-27 21:15:21 <Luke-Jr> well, as long as it's OUR bugs we're forced to workaround <.<
1664 2013-05-27 21:15:37 <sipa> i mean VS's non-compliance bugs
1665 2013-05-27 21:15:41 <Luke-Jr> like dereferencing end()
1666 2013-05-27 21:15:50 <Luke-Jr> ok yeah, those are annoying
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1670 2013-05-27 21:19:06 <Jere_Jones> sipa: Anything in particular or are you refering to the long list of things requiring #ifdef _MSC_VER?
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1674 2013-05-27 21:19:46 <sipa> Jere_Jones: no, i don't know enough about VS in particular, i just know there when the source code was VS-compliant, there were workarounds necessary
1675 2013-05-27 21:19:53 <sipa> maybe they're still there, maybe not...
1676 2013-05-27 21:20:04 <BlueMatt> I /hope/ we removed them
1677 2013-05-27 21:20:14 Neozonz has joined
1678 2013-05-27 21:20:17 <BCB> is rc3 still viable
1679 2013-05-27 21:20:41 <BCB> i'm testing multisig transaction on it
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1684 2013-05-27 21:26:00 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, sipa some of them are still there
1685 2013-05-27 21:26:03 <phantomcircuit> some of them are not
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1688 2013-05-27 21:26:39 <phantomcircuit> i would be fairly surprised if a bitcoind worked correctly built with vc
1689 2013-05-27 21:26:54 <Jere_Jones> Out of the box, in debug mode, it does not.
1690 2013-05-27 21:27:13 <Jere_Jones> So far, the changes I've needed to make are pretty minor.
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1701 2013-05-27 21:33:34 <funky_pizza> phantomcircuit:  what is usually used mingw?
1702 2013-05-27 21:33:43 funky_pizza is now known as funky
1703 2013-05-27 21:34:05 <phantomcircuit> funky, cross compiled on linux
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1705 2013-05-27 21:34:14 <sipa> using mingw
1706 2013-05-27 21:34:21 <phantomcircuit> er
1707 2013-05-27 21:34:21 <phantomcircuit> yeah
1708 2013-05-27 21:34:46 <phantomcircuit> funky, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/build-msw.md
1709 2013-05-27 21:34:50 <Jere_Jones> Ok.  It is successfully downloading the blockchain.  Woot!
1710 2013-05-27 21:34:55 <sipa> Jere_Jones: nice
1711 2013-05-27 21:35:49 <funky> I have tried to complie some win clients in visual studio it was not easiest thing to do :)
1712 2013-05-27 21:35:49 <Jere_Jones> I've written a msbuild project that builds the dependencies too.  It was the leveldb c++ layer that was the bitch.
1713 2013-05-27 21:36:01 <Jere_Jones> Everything else as been pretty easy.
1714 2013-05-27 21:36:05 <funky> *compile
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1732 2013-05-27 21:51:38 <funky> EvilPete: : (11:34:48 PM) EvilPete: funky: here's the problem. a transaction takes 148 buytes per input, and 34 bytes per output. If you take 1 btc input and blow it into 1000 fragments your fee is based on a 34 k transaction, ie 34k x 0.0001/kb. when I send coins to someone I pay output fee? and who pays input fee?
1733 2013-05-27 21:51:57 <funky> i asked some miners they also seems unsure how does it work exactly
1734 2013-05-27 21:52:56 <funky> from the client my 1st impression was I pay % fee to send btc and whoever solves thet block gets this %. how I see there is some in and out fees
1735 2013-05-27 21:53:00 Raizen has joined
1736 2013-05-27 21:53:11 <kjj> sender always pays the fee.
1737 2013-05-27 21:53:23 <maaku> funky: % of what?
1738 2013-05-27 21:53:31 <maaku> fee is per-kb, not per-btc
1739 2013-05-27 21:54:05 <funky> maaku:  yes now i realise that is it based on kb. so when I send 1 bitcoin how would I know how many kb it take?
1740 2013-05-27 21:54:25 <kjj> your node knows when it creates it
1741 2013-05-27 21:54:27 <maaku> you don't, it depends entirely on the number of inputs/outputs
1742 2013-05-27 21:54:48 <maaku> it has absolutely no corrolation with the number of bitcoins
1743 2013-05-27 21:57:57 <funky> maaku I read https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification#tx , inputs are previous transaction outputs seems so right?
1744 2013-05-27 21:58:38 <funky> its like double entry ledger in a way, for each input there is output
1745 2013-05-27 21:58:45 <maaku> yes an input connects to a previous output
1746 2013-05-27 21:59:35 ColinT has joined
1747 2013-05-27 21:59:43 <funky> maaku say i want to send 100 btc with a minum amount of kb used, how I can minimise output tx size?
1748 2013-05-27 21:59:59 <funky> *minimum
1749 2013-05-27 22:00:04 <maaku> miniize the number of outputs used
1750 2013-05-27 22:00:16 hnz has joined
1751 2013-05-27 22:00:18 <kjj> have large transactions in your wallet
1752 2013-05-27 22:00:24 <maaku> and if you're using the default client, you have no control over this
1753 2013-05-27 22:00:57 <maaku> an output could be worth 100 btc or 0.00000001btc
1754 2013-05-27 22:01:23 <maaku> either way, it "costs" the same. so make sure you have a bunch of uniformally large outputs in your wallet
1755 2013-05-27 22:01:35 <michagogo> "make sure"
1756 2013-05-27 22:01:42 <michagogo> except that again, you can't usually control that
1757 2013-05-27 22:01:56 <funky> ooo its seems messy!
1758 2013-05-27 22:01:57 <funky> :)
1759 2013-05-27 22:02:15 <maaku> michagogo: it won't make dust outputs unless you tell it to
1760 2013-05-27 22:02:27 <michagogo> maaku: I mean in general, with other people sending to you
1761 2013-05-27 22:02:58 <funky> each output is separate tx transaction?
1762 2013-05-27 22:03:02 <maaku> there is, I think, a set of "coin control" patches that automatically clean up small outputs over time, to minimize fees
1763 2013-05-27 22:03:09 <maaku> you can try using that
1764 2013-05-27 22:03:11 <kjj> it turns out that the general problem is NP-complete.
1765 2013-05-27 22:03:16 gruez has joined
1766 2013-05-27 22:03:23 <maaku> funky: no, a transaction has X inputs and Y outputs
1767 2013-05-27 22:03:26 <funky> 41+   tx_in   tx_in[]   A list of 1 or more transaction inputs or sources for coins
1768 2013-05-27 22:03:32 <funky> yes I see
1769 2013-05-27 22:04:20 <michagogo> maaku: As in, automatically add them as inputs to your transactions, as long as that doesn't bump you over a kb border?
1770 2013-05-27 22:04:23 <funky> what is max limit per one transaction?
1771 2013-05-27 22:04:30 <maaku> michagogo: yes, IIRC
1772 2013-05-27 22:04:31 resinate has quit (Quit: resinate)
1773 2013-05-27 22:04:38 <maaku> i don't have a link; giyf
1774 2013-05-27 22:04:53 kadoban_ has joined
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1776 2013-05-27 22:05:03 <maaku> funky: more inputs than you could ever fit in a block
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1780 2013-05-27 22:08:21 <funky> ok reading more :)
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1785 2013-05-27 22:12:44 <funky> I can send coins to IP address nice
1786 2013-05-27 22:12:55 <funky> i did not know that was possible before :)
1787 2013-05-27 22:13:16 <maaku> it's disabled, though
1788 2013-05-27 22:13:20 <maaku> sorry to be another killjoy :P
1789 2013-05-27 22:13:23 <sipa> it's _removed_
1790 2013-05-27 22:13:37 <sipa> BUT we'll have pay-to-url (aka payment protocol) soon
1791 2013-05-27 22:14:22 <funky> maaku rawrrr :)
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1793 2013-05-27 22:15:16 <funky> i read and read it seems issue lies on proof of ownership aka input have to reference previous output
1794 2013-05-27 22:15:32 <sipa> yes
1795 2013-05-27 22:15:53 <michagogo> Send to IP address?
1796 2013-05-27 22:15:58 <michagogo> Interesting... How'd that work?
1797 2013-05-27 22:16:12 nsillik has joined
1798 2013-05-27 22:16:43 <sipa> connect to an IP address, send a message "hey i want to send you money", get a reply with a public key, and then reply with a transaction to that pubkey
1799 2013-05-27 22:16:51 <michagogo> Ah
1800 2013-05-27 22:16:57 <michagogo> Wait a sec...
1801 2013-05-27 22:17:07 <michagogo> What's to stop an MITM attack?
1802 2013-05-27 22:17:20 <sipa> the fact that it was removed because of that reason
1803 2013-05-27 22:17:28 <michagogo> Ah. :-P
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1809 2013-05-27 22:18:35 <maaku> funky: if you spot somewhere that discusses pay-to-IP in anything other than historical context, edit it
1810 2013-05-27 22:19:21 <funky> If someone send me 1 btc in 0.0001 bits as a joke how i can send this 1btc as 1 btc aka break dust transactions chain while maintaining traceable proof of ownership?
1811 2013-05-27 22:20:10 <sipa> ?
1812 2013-05-27 22:20:23 <sipa> you'll create a transaction wiht 1000 inputs
1813 2013-05-27 22:20:31 <sipa> which will be humongous
1814 2013-05-27 22:20:32 <funky> fck
1815 2013-05-27 22:20:42 <funky> so no way to get read of it?
1816 2013-05-27 22:20:52 <sipa> why do you think dust filtering is introduced?
1817 2013-05-27 22:21:14 <funky> sipa now i start to realise what its for
1818 2013-05-27 22:21:14 <funky> :)
1819 2013-05-27 22:21:25 <maaku> funky: apply the coin control patches, and carry on as usual. as you do other transactions it will aggregate those outputs when it can
1820 2013-05-27 22:21:40 <funky> *rid of
1821 2013-05-27 22:22:45 <SteveDekorte> does bicoind send a new peer a tx inv for all txs that are in it's memory pool?
1822 2013-05-27 22:22:50 <funky> the reason i ask, if some receive coins with huge number of outputs it would cost more so send them
1823 2013-05-27 22:23:07 skywalk has joined
1824 2013-05-27 22:23:11 <sipa> SteveDekorte: only when the peers asks for it (see BIP34)
1825 2013-05-27 22:23:18 <sipa> sorry, BIP 35
1826 2013-05-27 22:23:22 <funky> so to sum up some btc coins can be more costly to send than others even if its same amount?
1827 2013-05-27 22:23:48 <sipa> funky: _coins_ are always the same cost (to the network), regardless of their amount
1828 2013-05-27 22:24:13 <SteveDekorte> sipa: so without that, it only sends tx invs for txs it sees after the peer connects?
1829 2013-05-27 22:24:23 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1830 2013-05-27 22:24:30 <sipa> SteveDekorte: indeed
1831 2013-05-27 22:25:13 <SteveDekorte> sipa: is BIP 0035 supported in the current bitcoind?
1832 2013-05-27 22:25:14 <funky> sipa to the network but to the sender?
1833 2013-05-27 22:25:15 <michagogo> funky: It's like paying in pennies instead of hundred-dollar bills
1834 2013-05-27 22:25:30 <michagogo> Each output that's sent to you is like a coin
1835 2013-05-27 22:25:53 <sipa> SteveDekorte: yes, since 0.6 or so
1836 2013-05-27 22:26:10 <michagogo> Each output that you spend as an input will be the same size, and therefore the same cost to spend
1837 2013-05-27 22:26:17 <funky> michagogo but I though its per kb, and if coin proof of ownership aka historic ouputs take more kb since there are more of them it weight more in kb
1838 2013-05-27 22:26:17 <SteveDekorte> sipa: ok, thanks
1839 2013-05-27 22:26:38 <michagogo> historic ouputs take more kb?
1840 2013-05-27 22:26:43 <sipa> funky: older and newer coins take the same number bytes to spend
1841 2013-05-27 22:26:49 <funky> ok ok
1842 2013-05-27 22:27:07 tyn has joined
1843 2013-05-27 22:27:09 <funky> so then dust only minor issue
1844 2013-05-27 22:27:14 <michagogo> NO.
1845 2013-05-27 22:27:20 <funky> since all it can do it to take hd space
1846 2013-05-27 22:27:27 <michagogo> "all it can do"?
1847 2013-05-27 22:27:33 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1848 2013-05-27 22:27:51 <funky> michagogo: I noticed hd space cost decline rapidly
1849 2013-05-27 22:28:24 <michagogo> A transaction that creates or spends a lot of dust will take up a lot of space, cumulatively
1850 2013-05-27 22:28:34 <michagogo> Also, some people don't have a lot of storage
1851 2013-05-27 22:28:35 <sipa> funky: unspent transaction outputs have to be quickyl accessible to anyone verifying blocks and transactions
1852 2013-05-27 22:28:41 <michagogo> Maybe they use SSDs
1853 2013-05-27 22:28:45 <michagogo> or older, small HDs
1854 2013-05-27 22:29:00 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
1855 2013-05-27 22:29:04 <sipa> funky: uneconomical outputs tend to be never spent, so they accumulate, and everyone needs to maintain them
1856 2013-05-27 22:29:10 <sipa> it's not just disk space
1857 2013-05-27 22:29:36 <funky> oo its those 00001 btc people leave in dust
1858 2013-05-27 22:29:53 Skav has joined
1859 2013-05-27 22:30:36 Truncatem has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1860 2013-05-27 22:30:41 <funky> also block I believe can house what 5000 transactions max?
1861 2013-05-27 22:31:10 <funky> well depends on kb size perhaps
1862 2013-05-27 22:31:40 <sipa> blocks are max 1 Mbyte max now
1863 2013-05-27 22:31:57 MobPhone has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1864 2013-05-27 22:33:00 <funky> I am thinking, since many people are hoarding btc that is also cost network something
1865 2013-05-27 22:33:28 <funky> the higher is transactional prospensity of crypto the more cost if distributed in active way
1866 2013-05-27 22:33:41 <warren> sipa: https://github.com/coblee/litecoin-old/commit/9b11e48d5a03662333c11c046017f9394b127cd5   This alone would make a huge positive impact on spam prevention.
1867 2013-05-27 22:34:19 <sipa> warren: i know, but i think it would cause some outcry :)
1868 2013-05-27 22:34:25 <warren> =)
1869 2013-05-27 22:34:36 <funky> sipa who would notice?
1870 2013-05-27 22:34:41 <funky> most just mine and send  coins :d
1871 2013-05-27 22:34:42 MobPhone has joined
1872 2013-05-27 22:34:43 <warren> spammers would notice
1873 2013-05-27 22:34:52 <warren> normal people wouldn't notice
1874 2013-05-27 22:35:09 <funky> so let them cry who cares
1875 2013-05-27 22:35:10 <funky> :)
1876 2013-05-27 22:35:11 <warren> spammers would call it "censorship" and "you're breaking the bible"
1877 2013-05-27 22:36:20 <funky> you can select one developer who  is already unpopular to do it
1878 2013-05-27 22:36:25 <funky> Luke for example
1879 2013-05-27 22:36:39 <sipa> lol
1880 2013-05-27 22:36:40 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1881 2013-05-27 22:36:54 <michagogo> :-P
1882 2013-05-27 22:37:57 Skav has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1883 2013-05-27 22:37:58 Bohren has joined
1884 2013-05-27 22:40:09 <gmaxwell> warren: I disagree that the change is all that useful at all. It's only a perhaps 15% cost increase in cost for someone that wants to create a bunch of outputs. (and also increases costs for lots of other normal users)
1885 2013-05-27 22:41:25 <warren> gmaxwell: it's ok to disagree.
1886 2013-05-27 22:41:45 <sipa> well a rational miner's decision will be charging per byte, not per output
1887 2013-05-27 22:42:08 gruez has quit (Quit: Page closed)
1888 2013-05-27 22:42:48 <warren> I believe that Satoshi made an error in charging only per byte.  There should be a cost for outputs too.  perhaps the cost could be better balanced.
1889 2013-05-27 22:43:04 <sipa> no he didn't
1890 2013-05-27 22:43:29 <sipa> if blocks are limited in bytes, fee/byte is what wil be maximized
1891 2013-05-27 22:43:39 <warren> storage in the blockchain has a flat fee, yet the cost of UXTO isn't included in that at all.
1892 2013-05-27 22:44:03 <sipa> yes, so the correct soluton would have been to have a hard rule that limits UTXO size/growth
1893 2013-05-27 22:44:11 <sipa> instead of a block limit size
1894 2013-05-27 22:44:11 <gmaxwell> sipa: ^ agreed there.
1895 2013-05-27 22:44:26 <warren> Sure you need bigger dust now, but it's still too small to be worthwhile in the UXTO set.
1896 2013-05-27 22:44:30 <sipa> then miner incentive and network incentive would match
1897 2013-05-27 22:45:13 michagogo has quit (Quit: Goodnight)
1898 2013-05-27 22:45:21 <warren> I'm not saying the cost per KB should be equal to cost per output.  I'm saying let the market set both prices.
1899 2013-05-27 22:45:59 <warren> cost per output should be smaller than cost per KB, unless you are dusting, then DIE
1900 2013-05-27 22:46:48 <gmaxwell> warren: and people should be charitable and help out their fellow man in all cases…
1901 2013-05-27 22:47:05 thegimp has joined
1902 2013-05-27 22:47:19 <sipa> also, we should replace the blockchain with just people promising not to doublespend
1903 2013-05-27 22:47:25 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, except on sundays
1904 2013-05-27 22:47:28 <phantomcircuit> gotta rest yo
1905 2013-05-27 22:47:29 * phantomcircuit runs
1906 2013-05-27 22:48:02 <gmaxwell> "How do you prevent doublespends?" "It's against the rules, so no problem."
1907 2013-05-27 22:48:04 <phantomcircuit> stupid bank holiday
1908 2013-05-27 22:48:09 <warren> gmaxwell: No disagreement there, but that has nothing to do with this.  I'm saying that fees can shape behavior.
1909 2013-05-27 22:48:23 <gmaxwell> warren: but what shapes the fees?
1910 2013-05-27 22:49:10 <sipa> warren: miners want to optimize their income (is perhaps not true today, but it's the most reasonable assumption)
1911 2013-05-27 22:49:13 sacrelege has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1912 2013-05-27 22:49:26 <sipa> warren: if the block size is limited, they want as many fees per limited byte space in their blocks
1913 2013-05-27 22:49:40 <warren> gmaxwell: set a reference default, and let miners/users adjust up and down from there.  A monitoring service tells everyone average confirmation times for particular % +/- the reference fee.
1914 2013-05-27 22:49:54 rdymac has joined
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1916 2013-05-27 22:49:55 rdymac has joined
1917 2013-05-27 22:49:58 <sipa> you assume miners just follow whatever policy developers set?
1918 2013-05-27 22:50:07 <sipa> (it's mostly true today, but i don't think that will last)
1919 2013-05-27 22:50:17 <warren> sipa: yes, I understand the standard theory as designed by Satoshi.  I just think it needs a slight refinement.
1920 2013-05-27 22:50:32 <sipa> i don't think you understand
1921 2013-05-27 22:50:41 <gmaxwell> it's also not rational. "Hi yes, I'd like to _make less money in pursuit of a likely hopeless objective..."
1922 2013-05-27 22:51:14 <warren> sipa: absolutely not.  I think miners will follow guidance, then try to maximize profit.  Users will have the opposite desire.  A market of confirmation times will result from it.
1923 2013-05-27 22:51:38 thegimp_ has joined
1924 2013-05-27 22:51:40 <sipa> if miners are rational, there is absolutely no reason why they would take UTXO-affect into account
1925 2013-05-27 22:51:52 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1926 2013-05-27 22:52:41 <warren> sipa: Charging fees *only* for block storage fails to account for UXTO cost.  I think adding a small cost for outputs to the storage fee, then allowing the aggregate fee to float in the market for confirmation times would do well to fix the currently unpaid for externality.
1927 2013-05-27 22:52:45 thegimp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1928 2013-05-27 22:52:45 thegimp_ is now known as thegimp
1929 2013-05-27 22:52:58 <sipa> warren: i completely agree, but it's unenforcable
1930 2013-05-27 22:53:02 rdymac has joined
1931 2013-05-27 22:53:08 <sipa> there is no reason why miners would use such a rule
1932 2013-05-27 22:53:30 <warren> OK, I disagree, and I will prove it in the next year. =)
1933 2013-05-27 22:53:49 <sipa> i don't think we will be able to observe this in the first coming years
1934 2013-05-27 22:54:01 <sipa> as the subsidy is far larger than the fee income anyway
1935 2013-05-27 22:54:24 <gmaxwell> warren: I don't disagree that they'd use it next week, I disagree that they'd use it when it actually mattered. It does not really matter much now.
1936 2013-05-27 22:54:51 <sipa> as i said, i'm talking about rational miners; right now, they aren't
1937 2013-05-27 22:54:57 <warren> I do agree the market for confirmation times will take a while to arise.
1938 2013-05-27 22:55:07 ahdinosaur has joined
1939 2013-05-27 22:55:19 <sipa> there will be a market before fees actually pay for security
1940 2013-05-27 22:55:41 <gmaxwell> You'd asking a chinese lottery of people trying to make money to behave as selfless responsible stewards of the system. While I agree that they may do so, sometimes, when it's mostly costless, they will not when it's costly (and prior to us prioritizing by fee there were miners doing that— even when fees were almost nothing).
1941 2013-05-27 22:55:48 <warren> Meanwhile, Litecoin's policy of charging for dust outputs has substantially slowed the burn rate of startup capital (UXTO set, block chain size).
1942 2013-05-27 22:57:52 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
1943 2013-05-27 22:58:00 <gmaxwell> warren: thats pure assertion and it's actually unsupportable with the data. LTC blockchain relative to market cap has been 100x bitcoins until the last couple months, and the only change has been because of the suddenly high ltc prices with very little change in blockchain activity.
1944 2013-05-27 22:58:09 * funky payment weather brought to you by funky crypto FM - its 9 am coast is clear, dust clouds are approaching from satoshi dice island and several faucets, expected transmittion time during the day at minimum fee is X confirms :)
1945 2013-05-27 22:58:26 <funky> *weather broadcast
1946 2013-05-27 22:58:39 <warren> gmaxwell: where's your data?
1947 2013-05-27 22:59:08 <gmaxwell> warren: e.g. ltc chain was >400 mbytes when the ltc "market cap" was about $30k.
1948 2013-05-27 22:59:31 BDCrate has quit ()
1949 2013-05-27 23:00:20 <warren> hmm, which files specifically are the block chain size (not index, not db)
1950 2013-05-27 23:00:56 BITTEeinBIT has quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
1951 2013-05-27 23:01:20 one_zero has joined
1952 2013-05-27 23:01:30 <sipa> blocks/blk*
1953 2013-05-27 23:01:43 <warren> are they all supposed to be the same size?
1954 2013-05-27 23:01:45 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1955 2013-05-27 23:02:03 <warren> -rw-------. 1 warren warren 1040209799 May 18 19:16 blk00000.dat
1956 2013-05-27 23:02:03 <warren> -rw-------. 1 warren warren  134217728 May 18 19:16 blk00001.dat
1957 2013-05-27 23:02:06 <warren> that doesn't look right
1958 2013-05-27 23:03:06 <sipa> old ones were larger
1959 2013-05-27 23:03:12 <sipa> newer ones are 128 MiB
1960 2013-05-27 23:03:25 <sipa> but if you already have older ones, they are reused
1961 2013-05-27 23:03:30 <warren> oh
1962 2013-05-27 23:04:23 gjj has joined
1963 2013-05-27 23:05:06 <warren> 1889MB blockchain right now.  http://ltc.block-explorer.com/charts   first chart: transactions per day.
1964 2013-05-27 23:05:18 <warren> the UXTO set is really small
1965 2013-05-27 23:06:23 <warren> sipa: is there a way in 0.8 to directly count the size of the UXTO set?
1966 2013-05-27 23:06:47 <sipa> yes
1967 2013-05-27 23:06:49 tyn has joined
1968 2013-05-27 23:06:51 <sipa> gettxoutsetinfo RPC
1969 2013-05-27 23:10:30 <warren> "txouts" : 6090079, <--- that's UXTO?
1970 2013-05-27 23:11:18 JackRabiit has joined
1971 2013-05-27 23:11:56 <warren> hahahaha
1972 2013-05-27 23:12:15 <phantomcircuit> warren, ?
1973 2013-05-27 23:12:18 <warren> looks like the majority of litecoin's UXTO are actually from p2pool dust
1974 2013-05-27 23:12:20 JackRabiit has quit (Client Quit)
1975 2013-05-27 23:12:29 <warren> bypasses fees
1976 2013-05-27 23:12:41 <phantomcircuit> sipa, most of the operations which hit the uxto are simple lookups by txid,index right?
1977 2013-05-27 23:13:20 <warren> at the current rate that p2pool mines on LTC, it could grow by 6 million TXO's per year
1978 2013-05-27 23:13:44 <warren> that growth is much smaller for bitcoin p2pool because blocks aren't found often
1979 2013-05-27 23:14:46 <gmaxwell> warren: what is the size of it then? it actually gives the size.
1980 2013-05-27 23:15:01 <warren> There's also a ton of UTXO from litecoin's November 2011 satoshi attack, before coblee added the anti-spam rules
1981 2013-05-27 23:15:08 <sipa> warren: that's the number of outputs, not the size in bytes
1982 2013-05-27 23:15:20 <warren> bytes_serialized ?
1983 2013-05-27 23:15:23 <sipa> yes
1984 2013-05-27 23:15:23 <gmaxwell> sure and we have a ton of outputs from before the 0.01 anti dust rule
1985 2013-05-27 23:16:06 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1986 2013-05-27 23:16:19 <warren> "bytes_serialized" : 312156055,
1987 2013-05-27 23:16:23 <warren> Most of that is from p2pool
1988 2013-05-27 23:16:35 <sipa> wut
1989 2013-05-27 23:16:40 <sipa> that is more than bitcoin's
1990 2013-05-27 23:16:43 <warren> yeah
1991 2013-05-27 23:16:49 <gmaxwell> 1.4x's bitcoin's..
1992 2013-05-27 23:16:49 <warren> p2pool dust is huge on litecoin
1993 2013-05-27 23:16:57 <gmaxwell> yea.
1994 2013-05-27 23:16:57 <gmaxwell> 15:32 < warren> Meanwhile, Litecoin's policy of charging for dust outputs has substantially slowed the burn rate of startup capital (UXTO set, block chain size).
1995 2013-05-27 23:17:01 <gmaxwell> ...
1996 2013-05-27 23:17:09 <warren> gmaxwell: from spam ... can't control mining spam
1997 2013-05-27 23:17:10 * gmaxwell looks for someone selling crow for btc.
1998 2013-05-27 23:17:28 <sipa> warren: sure you can, by using network rules that incentivize not mining it
1999 2013-05-27 23:17:36 <gmaxwell> warren: p2pool will only produce about 150 or whatever txouts per block.
2000 2013-05-27 23:17:37 <sipa> like a hard rule on UTXO set size growth :)
2001 2013-05-27 23:17:46 <warren> gmaxwell: eh?  we have 500-600 txo's per block
2002 2013-05-27 23:17:54 funky has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2003 2013-05-27 23:18:11 <warren> and currently ~30 blocks/day
2004 2013-05-27 23:18:26 funky has joined
2005 2013-05-27 23:18:26 <gmaxwell> warren: hm? I guess you get 4x more because of the lower interblock time.
2006 2013-05-27 23:18:46 <gmaxwell> in any case— whoppie. so much for your magical selfless miners that make everything good.
2007 2013-05-27 23:19:01 <warren> I never argued that.
2008 2013-05-27 23:19:07 <warren> I'm just saying outputs should have a cost.
2009 2013-05-27 23:19:29 <sipa> yes, and rational miners will not enforce it
2010 2013-05-27 23:19:30 <gmaxwell> And people should be nice. Agreeing that it should be so doesn't make it so. You need to find a way to make it so if you want it to be sticky.
2011 2013-05-27 23:21:24 <gmaxwell> the litecoin software also has that super fantastic min size patch that makes sure wallets ignore sufficiently small outputs so they never get aggregated.
2012 2013-05-27 23:21:36 <sipa> ha
2013 2013-05-27 23:21:45 <funky> lol
2014 2013-05-27 23:21:48 <gmaxwell> (I think the default is pretty small, but its adjustable)
2015 2013-05-27 23:22:02 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2016 2013-05-27 23:22:07 <warren> The key there is the don't get created at all.  Dust smaller than that was from the earlier spam attack.
2017 2013-05-27 23:22:23 funky is now known as alex_fun
2018 2013-05-27 23:22:58 gst has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2019 2013-05-27 23:22:59 sacredchao has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2020 2013-05-27 23:23:18 KillYourTV has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021 2013-05-27 23:23:19 GordonG3kko has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2022 2013-05-27 23:23:19 darkee has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2023 2013-05-27 23:23:49 <warren> I'm considering just permanently declaring all of that spam dust unspendable forever when everyone syncs their 0.8 blockchain.  Fees after november 2011 were high per output so new dust of that type is too expensive to create.  the one hole in this is mining though. Miners can dust all they want.
2024 2013-05-27 23:23:59 <warren> but that's true of Bitcoin too.
2025 2013-05-27 23:24:02 sacredchao has joined
2026 2013-05-27 23:24:15 gst has joined
2027 2013-05-27 23:24:40 KillYourTV has joined
2028 2013-05-27 23:24:46 darkee has joined
2029 2013-05-27 23:24:53 <gmaxwell> I wish you great luck!
2030 2013-05-27 23:24:54 gjj has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2031 2013-05-27 23:25:27 <warren> Hey, I don't claim this is perfect.  I actually think p2pool is the worst part of litecoin now.  There's no good solution for that.
2032 2013-05-27 23:25:49 <warren> I just think Bitcoin isn't taking the spam issue seriously enough.
2033 2013-05-27 23:26:11 <alex_fun> p2pools can issue rarer and larger payouts
2034 2013-05-27 23:26:12 <warren> I'm trying to be helpful in contributing fixes to Bitcoin if I find any.
2035 2013-05-27 23:26:16 GordonG3kko has joined
2036 2013-05-27 23:26:19 gjj has joined
2037 2013-05-27 23:26:28 <warren> alex_fun: yeah, I'm trying to convince forrestv to do that.
2038 2013-05-27 23:26:46 <alex_fun> if I find more coders I might open such pool
2039 2013-05-27 23:26:56 <alex_fun> seems summer is busy time
2040 2013-05-27 23:27:37 <alex_fun> warren you can also look at frei coin `instant` diff adjustment algo
2041 2013-05-27 23:28:19 <warren> alex_fun: you are not understanding p2pool
2042 2013-05-27 23:28:25 tyn has joined
2043 2013-05-27 23:28:34 <alex_fun> warren correct
2044 2013-05-27 23:29:36 <alex_fun> so far I gather it takes every hash and combines them to solve block, since most miners got 1 to 2 gpu they receive small amounts as per block payment right?
2045 2013-05-27 23:30:33 <gmaxwell> warren: What you're saying just doesn't make sense. You're claiming ltc has great policy that has saved it from bitcoin's ills, but it's utxo set is substantially larger. You're saying that you can make miners behave in a way that costs them money to enforce some better policy— when you're also blaming miners for not doing cleanup to remove small utxo.  Litecoin's own really agressive anti-spam rules are a big argument against actually doin
2046 2013-05-27 23:30:59 <warren> gmaxwell: The policy has stopped transaction spam.  The larger uxto set is from a different source altogether.
2047 2013-05-27 23:31:30 <gmaxwell> warren: p2pool itself uses a design where the amout of utxo's it creates are limited, and it's tunable.. but apparently no one has sought to even tune it—
2048 2013-05-27 23:31:48 <warren> gmaxwell: yeah, nobody payed attention, I'll look into it.
2049 2013-05-27 23:32:24 gjj has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2050 2013-05-27 23:32:57 <warren> forrestv mentioned something about setting the minimum share difficulty such that the minimum dust is greater than a certain level?   currently that isn't enforced.
2051 2013-05-27 23:33:24 macboz has joined
2052 2013-05-27 23:37:43 <warren> gmaxwell: http://ltc.block-explorer.com/block/f969ae9e8e5eaf5563c0a07ca3fc5d7ea3b49192179136e2b9793a58836e157b   511 outputs x 30 blocks/day. =(
2053 2013-05-27 23:38:56 <gmaxwell> *soxfixit*
2054 2013-05-27 23:39:05 <BCB> how do I convert a bitcoin address to it's pubkey??
2055 2013-05-27 23:39:14 <Luke-Jr> you can't
2056 2013-05-27 23:39:18 <BCB> hmmm
2057 2013-05-27 23:39:39 <warren> I will fix it.
2058 2013-05-27 23:39:42 <BCB> luke-jr but bitcoind validate address can if I own the address correct
2059 2013-05-27 23:40:01 <BCB> **validateaddress
2060 2013-05-27 23:40:36 <warren> gmaxwell: http://blockchain.info/tx/ca112c554fc586b62a10ad73f352caefd8739bb7430bfac99836aec6ab54cabc   Bitcoin p2pool 468 outputs
2061 2013-05-27 23:40:47 <sipa> BCB: that's just because it knows
2062 2013-05-27 23:40:52 <BCB> the privkey
2063 2013-05-27 23:40:54 <sipa> it has the public key
2064 2013-05-27 23:41:12 <sipa> yes
2065 2013-05-27 23:41:17 <sipa> it doesn't compute it
2066 2013-05-27 23:41:22 <sipa> it looks it up in the wallet
2067 2013-05-27 23:41:27 <BCB> ahh
2068 2013-05-27 23:41:34 <gmaxwell> warren: hm? did forrest change something in the last couple months. As I said— it's completely parameterizable. You just set the windowsize so that one share has a particular value.
2069 2013-05-27 23:41:58 <gmaxwell> I _thought_ the original parameters made the maximum about 150/block, but perhaps I'm on drugs.
2070 2013-05-27 23:42:04 BTCOxygen has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2071 2013-05-27 23:42:35 <BCB> sipa so bitcoind is generating the pubkey from the privkey in its wallet which it looks up when you run validate address on the bitcoin address. Correct?
2072 2013-05-27 23:42:43 <sipa> yes
2073 2013-05-27 23:43:11 <BCB> sipa and to create a multisig transaction you need the pubkey from the bitcoinaddress
2074 2013-05-27 23:43:35 <sipa> you just need the pubkeys
2075 2013-05-27 23:43:48 <BCB> right but you can't use the bitcoinaddress right?
2076 2013-05-27 23:43:48 <sipa> you create an address from multiple pubkeys instead of of one pubkeys
2077 2013-05-27 23:43:51 <sipa> no
2078 2013-05-27 23:44:03 <BCB> right
2079 2013-05-27 23:44:21 <Scrat> question: let's just say that there are a few fast blocks due to variance (it happens all the time) why do the miners still follow their default inclusion policy in that case?
2080 2013-05-27 23:44:30 <BCB> it is possible to transfer your pubkey to someone else on the network
2081 2013-05-27 23:45:05 <sipa> if you give your privkey away
2082 2013-05-27 23:45:06 <Scrat> pushing out 10kb blocks is dumb when there are thousands of unconfirmed transactions
2083 2013-05-27 23:45:18 <sipa> but don't do
2084 2013-05-27 23:45:34 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2085 2013-05-27 23:45:52 <BCB> sipa hmms.  So how are three parties supposet to combine 3 pubkeys to create a 2 of 3 multisig transaction
2086 2013-05-27 23:46:02 BTCOxygen has joined
2087 2013-05-27 23:46:06 <BCB> without revealing the privkey
2088 2013-05-27 23:46:33 jedunnigan has joined
2089 2013-05-27 23:46:37 <BCB> someone has to generate that multisig transaction
2090 2013-05-27 23:46:38 <warren> gmaxwell: I thought of an elegant solution for this.   It will take me a while to code a proof of concept.
2091 2013-05-27 23:46:53 gjj has joined
2092 2013-05-27 23:46:57 <sipa> BCB: oh, you don't mean transfer owner ship
2093 2013-05-27 23:46:58 BTCOxygen has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2094 2013-05-27 23:47:03 <sipa> BCB: yes, you just tell them your pubkey...
2095 2013-05-27 23:47:06 <BCB> yes
2096 2013-05-27 23:47:11 <gmaxwell> sure, I mean, I gave one on the altcoins page that I think is elegant.
2097 2013-05-27 23:47:41 <BCB> sipa any idea?
2098 2013-05-27 23:47:50 <sipa> 01:23:33 < sipa> BCB: yes, you just tell them your pubkey...
2099 2013-05-27 23:48:35 <BCB> I'm trying to abstrace the complexity of running the rpc cmd to generate the pubkey but I guess that is not possible
2100 2013-05-27 23:49:15 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2101 2013-05-27 23:49:17 <sipa> ...
2102 2013-05-27 23:49:35 <alex_fun> lol
2103 2013-05-27 23:50:20 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2104 2013-05-27 23:50:34 <alex_fun> BCB what are you trying to do?
2105 2013-05-27 23:51:30 <BCB> alex_fun, I'm trying to create a simple 2 of 3 escrow where users can just import their pubkey to create the multisig transactions and then enter the privkey to create the payemnt when the transaction is complete
2106 2013-05-27 23:51:54 <gmaxwell> warren: which is to have txouts reserve space for their spending.. that space subtracted from the blocksize and added to the spending size.
2107 2013-05-27 23:51:58 <sipa> _enter_ a privkey?
2108 2013-05-27 23:51:59 <gmaxwell> (spending block size)
2109 2013-05-27 23:51:59 <sipa> wtf?
2110 2013-05-27 23:52:08 <sipa> they're supposed to be private!
2111 2013-05-27 23:52:13 <alex_fun> haha
2112 2013-05-27 23:52:17 <alex_fun> why u said it
2113 2013-05-27 23:52:24 <BCB> sipa right but if it is a one time use for the escrow
2114 2013-05-27 23:52:29 <alex_fun> could be fun to see how it would be used :D
2115 2013-05-27 23:52:35 <BCB> it gets paid to another address
2116 2013-05-27 23:52:43 <sipa> what's the point?
2117 2013-05-27 23:52:48 <sipa> the idea of escrow is reducing trust!
2118 2013-05-27 23:52:57 <BCB> right
2119 2013-05-27 23:52:59 <sipa> now they need to fully trust you to construct the right transaction!
2120 2013-05-27 23:53:19 <gmaxwell> warren: which makes every utxo economically spendable _by_ definition, and keeps the incentives aligned. e.g. you don't want to mine a bunch of uxto because doing so shrinks your blocksize.
2121 2013-05-27 23:53:28 <BCB> I've just run through gavin's proof of concept and I'm trying to understand how the three parties would interact in this transaction
2122 2013-05-27 23:53:35 <warren> gmaxwell: you mean the coinbase txo must pay a fee or the block is rejected?
2123 2013-05-27 23:53:48 <gmaxwell> no.
2124 2013-05-27 23:54:09 <BCB> it this multi sig something the is proposed for implementation in the bitcoind in the future?
2125 2013-05-27 23:54:09 * Luke-Jr read that and was wonderinging how "proof of concept" competed with "proof of work" <.<
2126 2013-05-27 23:54:28 <sipa> Luke-Jr: we should create a coin based on proof-of-concept!
2127 2013-05-27 23:54:35 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I know, right? XD
2128 2013-05-27 23:54:38 <alex_fun> opps I might steal that idea
2129 2013-05-27 23:54:40 <alex_fun> :P
2130 2013-05-27 23:54:57 <alex_fun> this is even better than chinacoin with its fast confirms and large blocks
2131 2013-05-27 23:55:15 <BCB> so multisig is a no go??
2132 2013-05-27 23:55:19 <sipa> yeah, to create a block, you just need to prove that you've created a succesful altcoin
2133 2013-05-27 23:55:20 <BCB> dead in the water
2134 2013-05-27 23:55:27 <sipa> BCB: not before you understand it
2135 2013-05-27 23:55:34 <warren> sipa: define "successful"
2136 2013-05-27 23:55:47 <sipa> metacoin!
2137 2013-05-27 23:56:09 <sipa> BCB: multisig is perfectly doable; it's not easy and making it easy will take time
2138 2013-05-27 23:56:19 <sipa> but people have done succesful multisig transactions
2139 2013-05-27 23:56:25 <gmaxwell> warren: every txout specifies a size which is the maximum space available for a scriptsig that consumes it. (with some minimum value).  In a block that mines that txn the maximum blocksize is reduced by the sum of these values.
2140 2013-05-27 23:56:45 <alex_fun> i like escrow but bank wont give sepa api :)
2141 2013-05-27 23:56:49 <gmaxwell> warren: when someone later mines a transaction consuming that txout,  the reserved space is added back that that block's maximum size.
2142 2013-05-27 23:56:58 <sipa> warren: so you "pay" for the size when creating an output, and get a payback when consuming it
2143 2013-05-27 23:58:02 <gmaxwell> warren: "prepaid redemption costs".
2144 2013-05-27 23:58:22 <Luke-Jr> sipa: an altcoin where coins are introduced by mining genesis blocks? :P
2145 2013-05-27 23:58:40 <sipa> Luke-Jr: now imagine merge-mining those together
2146 2013-05-27 23:58:59 <buZz> Luke-Jr: lol, thats like mining vanity addresses ;)
2147 2013-05-27 23:59:01 <gmaxwell> BCB: I even made a multisign tutorial and walked people through it on IRC a number of times. It's not rocket science, it just doesn't have a nice user interface.
2148 2013-05-27 23:59:12 <BCB> sipa so you would have to send the hex around to each of the parties to sign the raw transaction
2149 2013-05-27 23:59:25 <sipa> BCB: yes, or have a protocol that does that
2150 2013-05-27 23:59:35 <BCB> sipa is that a proposal
2151 2013-05-27 23:59:41 <BCB> anywhere
2152 2013-05-27 23:59:43 <gmaxwell> BCB: you could encode the transactions into pictures of lolcats and send those instead if it makes you happier?