1 2013-05-28 00:00:17 <sipa> can i hazh block?
   2 2013-05-28 00:00:32 <BCB> gmaxwell, base64?
   3 2013-05-28 00:00:39 <BCB> our could you send the raw hex value
   4 2013-05-28 00:00:46 <BCB> *or
   5 2013-05-28 00:00:50 <warren> gmaxwell: OK, I need to learn more, I don't fully understand this suggestion.
   6 2013-05-28 00:01:15 <alex_fun> alt coin where coin reward is linked to dow jones index, the more u pump fiat based bubble the more coin pays
   7 2013-05-28 00:01:41 <BCB> gmaxwell, do you have a link to the tutorial?
   8 2013-05-28 00:01:48 <alex_fun> if index falls below certain value alt coin auto generate new genesis block :)
   9 2013-05-28 00:02:38 <alex_fun> no thats nonense, each block is gotta be mined by proof of coolness, those are facebook likes!
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  16 2013-05-28 00:14:03 <gmaxwell> https://people.xiph.org/~greg/escrowexample.txt
  17 2013-05-28 00:17:20 tyn has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
  18 2013-05-28 00:19:16 <warren> gmaxwell: was what you described above ever suggested/written before?
  19 2013-05-28 00:19:29 <rumpler> Are there any known GUI's that have been released for doing Bitcoin escrow? (Even super-basic implementations, just curious if someone's known to be working on it)
  20 2013-05-28 00:20:40 <warren> blcokchain.info?
  21 2013-05-28 00:21:24 Bohren has joined
  22 2013-05-28 00:21:31 <gmaxwell> warren: it's on my altchains page!
  23 2013-05-28 00:21:46 <BCB> anyone know why why the public key of a bitcoin address on blockchain.info is 130 character while the scriptPubKey on bitcoind is 50 characters?
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  27 2013-05-28 00:22:13 <sipa> BCB: public keys are 33 or 65 bytes (so 66 or 130 in hex)
  28 2013-05-28 00:22:27 <sipa> scriptPubKeys output to addresses, which are 20 bytes only
  29 2013-05-28 00:22:27 saracen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  30 2013-05-28 00:22:35 <sipa> well, typical ones
  31 2013-05-28 00:22:35 SteveDekorte has joined
  32 2013-05-28 00:22:54 <BCB> sipa is there a link to a spec on that?
  33 2013-05-28 00:23:03 <sipa> use the source, luke
  34 2013-05-28 00:23:20 <sipa> the script page on the wiki will explain part of it
  35 2013-05-28 00:23:32 saracen has joined
  36 2013-05-28 00:23:46 tyn has joined
  37 2013-05-28 00:24:07 <BCB> oh i forgot the code is the manuel in bitcoin
  38 2013-05-28 00:24:31 <sipa> "manual" ?
  39 2013-05-28 00:24:53 <warren> gmaxwell: thank you.
  40 2013-05-28 00:25:29 <BCB> manual
  41 2013-05-28 00:25:44 <sipa> i have no clue what you mean by "code is manual" ?
  42 2013-05-28 00:25:56 <warren> gmaxwell: in general I want to research anti-spam techniques that minimize the downsides
  43 2013-05-28 00:25:58 <sipa> sure, it was typed by human hands (at least, that's what we think...)
  44 2013-05-28 00:26:08 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
  45 2013-05-28 00:26:20 <nba_btchip> probably "code is the specification"
  46 2013-05-28 00:26:25 <alex_fun> sipa it was not  channeled?
  47 2013-05-28 00:26:29 <alex_fun> :)
  48 2013-05-28 00:26:57 <gmaxwell> warren: What I propose isn't an "anti spam" technique. It's a cost deexternalization technique that makes "antispam" pointless.  Antispam is the wrong way to think of things— it implies a value judgement about transactions, ... if you want to be in that business: design a centeralized system.
  49 2013-05-28 00:29:27 lolcookie__ has joined
  50 2013-05-28 00:29:39 <warren> gmaxwell: I'm taking a system that is unduly anti-spam and thinking how to best lower transaction costs without losing the anti-spam teeth.  Perhaps your suggestion is better than what I had been considering.  I need to think more.
  51 2013-05-28 00:30:12 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  52 2013-05-28 00:30:41 <warren> My current plan is: 1) Lowering fees substantially.  2) Charging a small fee for all outputs.  3) Charging a bigger fee for dust outputs that aren't worthwhile to be in the blockchain.  4) Make inputs much cheaper.  Totally different from Satoshi's design.  Relies upon new dust to not be created at all.
  53 2013-05-28 00:31:31 <gmaxwell> ::sigh:: you have a long complicated plan that does nothing with miners incentives or behavior... while you're blaiming miners for most of your utxo size. seems misguided to me.
  54 2013-05-28 00:32:38 <sipa> it would probably work if you made fees be burnt instead of going to miners
  55 2013-05-28 00:32:45 <warren> I'm blaming p2pool as the only hole in this plan, because nobody considered that there should be limits on the quantity of txo's in a subsidy payout.
  56 2013-05-28 00:34:04 <warren> OTOH, this plan would make p2pool dust combining very low cost.  So mining txo dust is the only dust that can cheaply exist.  That's better than user-generated dust spam, IMHO.
  57 2013-05-28 00:34:15 <sipa> but why do you assume miners will follow your code?
  58 2013-05-28 00:34:16 SteveDekorte has quit (Quit: SteveDekorte)
  59 2013-05-28 00:34:34 Chuky has quit (Quit: • IRcap • 8.71 •)
  60 2013-05-28 00:35:07 <warren> sipa: they get paid for KB and quantity of outputs, they want lower fees than today.
  61 2013-05-28 00:36:11 <sipa> ok, there are 1000 1 KB transactions waiting, each consuming 2 outputs and producing 2 outsputs
  62 2013-05-28 00:36:20 <warren> Yes, there will be block storage waste in combining, but the rate of combining waste is limited to the creation of dust, which is expensive.
  63 2013-05-28 00:36:36 <sipa> and there is one MB transaction, consuming 2000 outputs, and producing 2
  64 2013-05-28 00:37:02 <sipa> the second one will get a fee benefit over the other
  65 2013-05-28 00:37:06 <warren> there is a 100KB tx size limit (from a few months ago in bitcoin)
  66 2013-05-28 00:37:22 <sipa> but the miner is much better off using the other transactions
  67 2013-05-28 00:37:28 <sipa> the thing that is limited is bytes, not outputs
  68 2013-05-28 00:37:48 <sipa> optimizing for profit will mean picking the transactions with the highest fee/byte
  69 2013-05-28 00:37:59 <sipa> anything else is not rational behaviour
  70 2013-05-28 00:38:18 <warren> You're still ignoring the cost of UXTO in memory.
  71 2013-05-28 00:38:39 <warren> The above plan would work just fine removing part #4.
  72 2013-05-28 00:38:39 <sipa> I am not ignoring it.
  73 2013-05-28 00:38:47 <edcba> how much uxto there are ?
  74 2013-05-28 00:38:55 <sipa> I am perfectly aware of the fact that it would be better to minimize UTXO set size.
  75 2013-05-28 00:38:58 <edcba> currently
  76 2013-05-28 00:39:02 <sipa> I am saying that miners will not enforce that.
  77 2013-05-28 00:39:14 <sipa> If they are rational, and there is a block size limit specified in bytes.
  78 2013-05-28 00:39:19 <warren> they will if it shrinks their memory requirements
  79 2013-05-28 00:39:26 <sipa> it doesn't
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  81 2013-05-28 00:39:36 <sipa> they need to accept blocks by other miners as well
  82 2013-05-28 00:39:44 <sipa> whatever they don't accept will be acceptabled by another miner
  83 2013-05-28 00:39:47 <sipa> and they're not better off
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  87 2013-05-28 00:41:15 <warren> I believe that miners can collude to demand fee/bytes *and* fee/txo, instead of only fee/bytes.
  88 2013-05-28 00:41:35 <warren> fee/txo would be smaller than fee/bytes
  89 2013-05-28 00:41:46 <sipa> they have no incentive to do so, if the only limit enforced by the rest of the network is one in terms of bytes
  90 2013-05-28 00:41:52 johnsoft1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
  91 2013-05-28 00:43:12 <warren> The nature of the existing system as an anchor might make that true for Bitcoin.  That isn't a psychological anchor elsewere.
  92 2013-05-28 00:43:41 wizkid057 has quit (Quit: call me if issues)
  93 2013-05-28 00:43:47 <sipa> i'm not talking about psychological at al
  94 2013-05-28 00:43:50 <warren> I believe I can make this work.  It already is working.  Too much.  The miners want their own fees lowered.
  95 2013-05-28 00:43:52 <sipa> just mathematically maximizing profit
  96 2013-05-28 00:44:12 <sipa> you have 1M bytes
  97 2013-05-28 00:44:18 <sipa> squeeze as much fee in as you can
  98 2013-05-28 00:44:48 <warren> I disagree, I think adding a small cost for txo can be enforced due to 1) reference client saying so 2) miners realizing they can collude to demand it.
  99 2013-05-28 00:45:16 <warren> That is in addition to the fee/byte
 100 2013-05-28 00:45:33 <warren> part #4 reducing the cost of inputs is controversial and might be a bad idea, I agree.
 101 2013-05-28 00:45:39 <gmaxwell> warren: prototcol external collusion is very risky... because its opaque... it makes the time until safe convergence potentially grow to infinity.
 102 2013-05-28 00:46:06 funky has joined
 103 2013-05-28 00:46:46 <sipa> if anything, after colluding, miners have all incentive to make the UTXO set large
 104 2013-05-28 00:47:10 alex_fun has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 105 2013-05-28 00:47:30 <warren> gmaxwell: it becomes a variable price market for confirmation times, if users want to play fee games.  A monitoring service can measure the confirmation times at differing degrees from the reference benchmark and users can choose what they are willing to pay.  Miners can also balance their threshold with the risk of orphans if they are too inclusive.
 106 2013-05-28 00:47:51 <sipa> i'm going to stop discussing this :)
 107 2013-05-28 00:47:59 <Luke-Jr> lol
 108 2013-05-28 00:48:25 <warren> Sorry we disagree.  I'll prove it eventually, if I don't get paid more to work on something else first.
 109 2013-05-28 00:48:37 <sipa> you're talking about all kinds of interesting fee schemes, and they all sound reasonable
 110 2013-05-28 00:48:52 <sipa> but i see no reason why any rational miner would accept it
 111 2013-05-28 00:49:16 <warren> That's OK.  I also might not be able to show the theory working because the subsidy is too high for years...
 112 2013-05-28 00:49:32 <sipa> Indeed.
 113 2013-05-28 00:49:40 <Luke-Jr> sipa: the same reason miners would accept transactions without any fee at all
 114 2013-05-28 00:50:06 <sipa> Luke-Jr: i am all the time talking about rational miners (which currently don't exist)
 115 2013-05-28 00:50:25 <Luke-Jr> sipa: so you think accepting feeless transactions is irrational?
 116 2013-05-28 00:50:28 <sipa> yes
 117 2013-05-28 00:50:42 <sipa> not because there is no good reason for it
 118 2013-05-28 00:50:44 <Luke-Jr> I disagree. Miners have a motive to make the system more appealing to use.
 119 2013-05-28 00:50:49 <sipa> but because that reaosn cannot be quantified
 120 2013-05-28 00:51:03 <Luke-Jr> because it increases the value of the coins they mine
 121 2013-05-28 00:51:08 <sipa> Maybe
 122 2013-05-28 00:51:20 <sipa> i'm not saying it's a bad idea, but it's disputable
 123 2013-05-28 00:51:31 <sipa> by rational i mean short-term maximizing profit
 124 2013-05-28 00:51:34 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: certantly that makes sense under some conditions but it's also pretty clearly fragile.
 125 2013-05-28 00:51:40 Neozonz has joined
 126 2013-05-28 00:51:55 <gmaxwell> E.g. it doesn't hold in a world where bitcoin is already well established and accepting a free transaction here and there has very little benefit for you.
 127 2013-05-28 00:52:06 <sipa> long-term best behaviour may be different, but it isn't easy to know to what extent
 128 2013-05-28 00:52:09 <Luke-Jr> sipa: IMO, long-term profit is more rational :P
 129 2013-05-28 00:52:19 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: sure
 130 2013-05-28 00:52:40 <sipa> anyway, perhaps we need a different term than "rational behaviour" maybe
 131 2013-05-28 00:53:03 <gmaxwell> Certantly I'm not opposed to short term little tweaks that don't match out the greedy optimal behavior, I just oppose thinking that this is a real, stable, lasting solution
 132 2013-05-28 00:53:22 <sipa> ^
 133 2013-05-28 00:55:26 <Luke-Jr> keep in mind that the greedy miner also needs to weigh hiring a programmer to make the greedy changes right now :P
 134 2013-05-28 00:56:25 <gmaxwell> indeed. But "right now". It's also not terribly costly.
 135 2013-05-28 01:00:05 diki has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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 140 2013-05-28 01:06:00 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 141 2013-05-28 01:09:20 johnsoft has joined
 142 2013-05-28 01:10:26 robbak has joined
 143 2013-05-28 01:10:50 <robbak> Anyone got a timeline for 0.8.2?
 144 2013-05-28 01:11:11 thegimp has quit (Quit: thegimp)
 145 2013-05-28 01:11:18 toffoo has joined
 146 2013-05-28 01:11:44 <gmaxwell> robbak: No but I can tell you how to make it arrive faster: test it, submit results (positive or negative)
 147 2013-05-28 01:12:08 digitalmagus2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 148 2013-05-28 01:12:30 ngc0202 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 149 2013-05-28 01:12:55 <warren> gmaxwell: should I spend more time figuring out what's wrong with boost?
 150 2013-05-28 01:13:14 thegimp has joined
 151 2013-05-28 01:13:21 <gmaxwell> warren: did you figure out which commit(s) triggered your misbehavior?
 152 2013-05-28 01:13:24 <warren> gmaxwell: yes
 153 2013-05-28 01:13:39 <gmaxwell> warren: which?
 154 2013-05-28 01:14:09 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2690#issuecomment-18494361
 155 2013-05-28 01:14:30 <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2690#issuecomment-18494361
 156 2013-05-28 01:14:36 * sipa is a slow poke
 157 2013-05-28 01:15:12 <warren> gmaxwell: I should probably test Fedora 19...
 158 2013-05-28 01:15:36 <warren> gmaxwell: would you folks accept patches that allow static linking specific libraries instead of all/none?
 159 2013-05-28 01:15:40 thegimp_ has joined
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 161 2013-05-28 01:16:07 <robbak> gmaxwell: Well, I'm testing it, and I've got the FreeBSD port ready to release when it happens. I do have one live pullreq for one of the patches I needed to apply.
 162 2013-05-28 01:16:08 <sipa> sounds like something to do after autotoolsifying
 163 2013-05-28 01:16:32 <warren> oh, when is that happening?
 164 2013-05-28 01:16:53 <sipa> no idea, but there's someone working on it
 165 2013-05-28 01:17:08 <sipa> (TheUni
 166 2013-05-28 01:17:17 <TheUni> ?
 167 2013-05-28 01:17:35 jeewee has joined
 168 2013-05-28 01:17:41 <sipa> you're working on autotoolsifying, no?
 169 2013-05-28 01:17:46 <TheUni> yep
 170 2013-05-28 01:18:18 thegimp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 171 2013-05-28 01:19:46 <TheUni> sipa: speaking of which.. which is the supported (read: used for binary release) method for building win32 ?
 172 2013-05-28 01:20:20 <sipa> TheUni: gitian (which means ubuntu 10.04 32-bit with mingw32 crosscompiling)
 173 2013-05-28 01:20:31 Arnavion has quit (Quit: Arnavion)
 174 2013-05-28 01:20:56 shesek has joined
 175 2013-05-28 01:21:45 <TheUni> sipa: just to be completely sure, you mean makefile.linux-mingw ?
 176 2013-05-28 01:21:56 <sipa> i believe that's what it uses yes
 177 2013-05-28 01:22:06 <TheUni> ok
 178 2013-05-28 01:22:12 <TheUni> could you point me to how the depends are built?
 179 2013-05-28 01:22:29 <sipa> yup: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/contrib/gitian-descriptors/gitian-win32.yml#L62
 180 2013-05-28 01:23:10 <sipa> hmm? you build them before building bitcoin
 181 2013-05-28 01:23:13 nsillik has quit (Quit: nsillik)
 182 2013-05-28 01:23:16 Arnavion has joined
 183 2013-05-28 01:23:35 <sipa> qt-win32.yml, boost-win32.yml, deps-win32.yml
 184 2013-05-28 01:23:51 Cache_Money has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 185 2013-05-28 01:23:56 <TheUni> sipa: sure, but i could build them in lots of different ways...
 186 2013-05-28 01:24:03 <sipa> how so?
 187 2013-05-28 01:24:05 <TheUni> but that file answers my question perfectly, thanks
 188 2013-05-28 01:24:10 <sipa> ok
 189 2013-05-28 01:24:13 <warren> sipa: the docs don't say to copy the build/out to inputs/
 190 2013-05-28 01:24:31 <sipa> warren: feel free to improve the docs :)
 191 2013-05-28 01:24:37 <warren> hmm ok
 192 2013-05-28 01:25:23 <TheUni> sipa: i prefer to have a cross build environment that fakes a prefix rather than a script that doesn't give much control
 193 2013-05-28 01:25:26 <TheUni> but one thing at at time...
 194 2013-05-28 01:25:28 <TheUni> hmm
 195 2013-05-28 01:25:38 <TheUni> "bitcoin-deps-0.0.5.zip"
 196 2013-05-28 01:25:57 dikidera has quit ()
 197 2013-05-28 01:26:23 <TheUni> so they're just stored as binary snapshots and fetched for client builds?
 198 2013-05-28 01:26:27 <Jere_Jones> My vs2012 build is all synced up and seems to be behaving correctly. Yay!
 199 2013-05-28 01:26:28 <sipa> yes
 200 2013-05-28 01:27:05 <TheUni> interesting, ok
 201 2013-05-28 01:27:10 <TheUni> makes my life easier for now, i suppose :)
 202 2013-05-28 01:27:20 <sipa> TheUni: gitian builds are deterministic, so you can just do a number increase anytime the blob changes
 203 2013-05-28 01:27:27 <sipa> no need for complex versioning
 204 2013-05-28 01:29:21 <TheUni> sipa: so how do devs typically get their hands on the binary archives without using gitian?
 205 2013-05-28 01:29:30 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 206 2013-05-28 01:30:19 funky is now known as alex_fun
 207 2013-05-28 01:30:43 <TheUni> mm.. i must've skipped a doc somewhere. i'll go try again
 208 2013-05-28 01:31:34 <TheUni> i've been faking my own mingw cross-builds in a dinky little env that i setup, but i suppose it'd make my work much easier to just use the current supported binaries
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 213 2013-05-28 01:37:58 <sipa> TheUni: which binary archives?
 214 2013-05-28 01:38:32 <sipa> bitcoin-deps-0.0.5.zip?
 215 2013-05-28 01:38:48 <TheUni> sipa: the win32 build dependencies
 216 2013-05-28 01:38:52 CodeShark has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 217 2013-05-28 01:38:55 <TheUni> i presume that's what ^^ is ?
 218 2013-05-28 01:39:07 <sipa> well you only need them for releases
 219 2013-05-28 01:39:14 <sipa> so only people doing gitian builds have them
 220 2013-05-28 01:39:18 <sipa> and they create them themself
 221 2013-05-28 01:39:30 <TheUni> sipa: ok, here's where i am..
 222 2013-05-28 01:40:06 <TheUni> i have autotools building for linux/osx. i've either built the depends myself, or in osx's case, grabbed them from macports
 223 2013-05-28 01:40:39 <TheUni> for win32, i'm missing the part of the procedure where those deps are built/obtained
 224 2013-05-28 01:40:48 <sipa> you build them yourself
 225 2013-05-28 01:40:57 <sipa> as part of the release build process
 226 2013-05-28 01:40:58 <alex_fun> use mingw
 227 2013-05-28 01:41:25 <sipa> so you run gitian once on win32-deps, once on win32-boost, once on win32-qt
 228 2013-05-28 01:41:33 <sipa> and then use those deps to run gitian on win32
 229 2013-05-28 01:41:40 <TheUni> ok, i can build myself no problem. but i'm doing my best to follow the normal procedure in order to understand better..
 230 2013-05-28 01:41:58 <sipa> and since deps/boost/qt rarely change, you can skip rebuilding them most of the time
 231 2013-05-28 01:42:04 <TheUni> sipa: ok, i suppose that's the problem. i guess i'm not quite clear on why gitian is necessary
 232 2013-05-28 01:42:18 <sipa> to get deterministic binaries
 233 2013-05-28 01:42:26 <sipa> everyone running gitian gets byte-exact binaries
 234 2013-05-28 01:42:38 <sipa> which they sign
 235 2013-05-28 01:42:51 <sipa> so people can verify that the source and the binary correspond
 236 2013-05-28 01:43:19 <alex_fun> does github have some option like that?
 237 2013-05-28 01:43:20 <TheUni> understood. but if the build procedure builds the same sources from a mandatory toolchain, couldn't the final byte-exact binary just be signed?
 238 2013-05-28 01:43:39 <sipa> yes?
 239 2013-05-28 01:44:01 <TheUni> sipa: not trying to be hostile in any way, just trying to understand
 240 2013-05-28 01:44:32 <sipa> except that gitian signs all inputs and all outputs, that's what happens
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 243 2013-05-28 01:45:36 <sipa> not trying to be hostile either by the way, i'm just not sure what you're missing :)
 244 2013-05-28 01:45:39 <sipa> or asking, really
 245 2013-05-28 01:45:50 <TheUni> sipa: heh, no problem
 246 2013-05-28 01:46:35 <TheUni> as i said, i'm primarily a cross dev. so i typically solve these things with a cross-environment approach. i'm just trying to understand why it's necessary
 247 2013-05-28 01:46:37 <sipa> so one part that's maybe confusing is that (almost) all developers don't use windows, so we don't have automated nice builds
 248 2013-05-28 01:46:53 <sipa> the only way windows binaries are built is for releases, so via gitian
 249 2013-05-28 01:47:06 <TheUni> ok, that was the part i was missing
 250 2013-05-28 01:47:11 <sipa> (except diapolo does build it from qt-creator on windows, but i have no clue how)
 251 2013-05-28 01:47:14 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 252 2013-05-28 01:47:29 <TheUni> so, i suppose now we've arrived at my real question, then
 253 2013-05-28 01:47:46 <TheUni> why is that? :)
 254 2013-05-28 01:47:51 <sipa> why is what?
 255 2013-05-28 01:48:00 <alex_fun> what is why?
 256 2013-05-28 01:48:09 <sipa> accident, mostly
 257 2013-05-28 01:48:09 <alex_fun> 10 ltc is u can answer correctly
 258 2013-05-28 01:48:23 <alex_fun> sipa it seems building on win is easy now
 259 2013-05-28 01:48:27 <sipa> most developers are linux/osx people
 260 2013-05-28 01:48:29 <alex_fun> I migh re try soon
 261 2013-05-28 01:48:36 <TheUni> sipa: why not have a little env for compiling for win32?
 262 2013-05-28 01:48:39 <TheUni> sipa: sure, as am i
 263 2013-05-28 01:48:50 <TheUni> however, with mingw toolchain, it doesn't feel any different
 264 2013-05-28 01:49:00 <sipa> TheUni: those that need that are very welcome to contribute that :)
 265 2013-05-28 01:49:01 <TheUni> it just feels like building for another arch
 266 2013-05-28 01:49:31 <TheUni> sipa: well i could add it into what i'm doing. i was trying to understand if there's a reason for the complexity that's currently in place
 267 2013-05-28 01:49:53 <sipa> well, makefile.mingw does the same as on other architectures
 268 2013-05-28 01:50:13 <sipa> it's just that obtaining usable dependencies is usually somewhat more work on windows
 269 2013-05-28 01:50:25 <TheUni> right, but it assumes that there's a usable prefix already established
 270 2013-05-28 01:50:26 <warren> gmaxwell: I was wrong ... several million of the current uxto's are from the November 2011 satoshi flood, most of the rest is p2pool.
 271 2013-05-28 01:50:30 <sipa> and i have no clue how to automate that
 272 2013-05-28 01:50:39 <TheUni> creating that prefix is what i would be adding
 273 2013-05-28 01:50:50 <TheUni> sipa: did you see the link i posted the other day to my last big project?
 274 2013-05-28 01:50:53 <sipa> TheUni: i don't even know what you mean by that
 275 2013-05-28 01:51:09 <sipa> no
 276 2013-05-28 01:51:28 <sipa> my first reaction is: clean up whatever you like/can
 277 2013-05-28 01:51:31 Diapolis has joined
 278 2013-05-28 01:51:33 <TheUni> sipa: https://github.com/xbmc/xbmc/tree/master/tools/depends
 279 2013-05-28 01:51:44 <TheUni> we (xbmc) require about 60 libs to build for various arches
 280 2013-05-28 01:51:51 <TheUni> and we run on virtually every hardware config and OS
 281 2013-05-28 01:52:00 <sipa> that's very impressive!
 282 2013-05-28 01:52:14 <TheUni> so we needed a system for building the dependencies for any arch/os combo
 283 2013-05-28 01:52:49 <sipa> TheUni: as far as i'm concerned, you can change whatever you want in the windows build process, as long as you change the gitian descript along with it, and we get usable binaries out of that
 284 2013-05-28 01:53:21 <TheUni> so, rather than depending on mac ports/portage/distros/whatever, we host our own dependencies. that way we can pin our binaries, and we know exactly what we're getting
 285 2013-05-28 01:53:21 <sipa> diapolo may have other requirements
 286 2013-05-28 01:53:38 <sipa> right, we're moving towards that too i guess
 287 2013-05-28 01:53:50 <sipa> leveldb is already included in the source
 288 2013-05-28 01:53:51 <TheUni> official releases, of course, use a hard set of toolchains/build-tools, so that we don't introduce any variables that way
 289 2013-05-28 01:54:15 <TheUni> right
 290 2013-05-28 01:54:16 <sipa> (i understand that self-hosting doesn't necessarily mean having it in a subdir of the repo)
 291 2013-05-28 01:54:37 <TheUni> correct. note that we fetch a tarball or git clone to a local cache
 292 2013-05-28 01:54:50 <TheUni> we don't store any source locally
 293 2013-05-28 01:55:14 <TheUni> we also host those tarballs ourselves in order to mitigate tampering
 294 2013-05-28 01:55:45 <TheUni> ok, didn't mean to rant. was just wanting some clarification
 295 2013-05-28 01:55:55 <sipa> didn't interpret it as a rant
 296 2013-05-28 01:56:17 <sipa> just agreeing with you that pinned dependencies is the way to go
 297 2013-05-28 01:56:52 <TheUni> sipa: do you have a link to the current win32 depends i could use for autotools dev to avoid the gitian route for now?
 298 2013-05-28 01:57:31 <sipa> i'm 10000 km away from my gitian build machine (which is turned off), so no :)
 299 2013-05-28 01:57:39 GordonG3kko has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 300 2013-05-28 01:57:57 <TheUni> heh ok. guess it's time to head down that path, then
 301 2013-05-28 01:58:11 <sipa> getting gitian to run is a beast, however
 302 2013-05-28 01:58:35 <sipa> you'll need it eventually, to test builds inside of it
 303 2013-05-28 01:58:37 GordonG3kko has joined
 304 2013-05-28 01:58:45 <TheUni> thanks for the patience, btw. i'm very used to this kind of work, but it's a strange feeling to be hacking and lost in a new project :)
 305 2013-05-28 01:59:22 <sipa> thank you for your patience for our weird ways :p
 306 2013-05-28 01:59:51 shesek has joined
 307 2013-05-28 02:00:01 <alex_fun> :)
 308 2013-05-28 02:00:21 <TheUni> heh
 309 2013-05-28 02:00:34 robocoin has quit (Quit: buy buy)
 310 2013-05-28 02:00:52 <TheUni> sipa: so, and i'm hesitant to ask, but how are builds usually cranked out for arm/mips/etc ?
 311 2013-05-28 02:01:11 <sipa> TheUni: no official builds for those
 312 2013-05-28 02:01:26 <gmaxwell> Not officially supported platforms. And considering the resource requirements, there is only a moderate level of interest there.
 313 2013-05-28 02:01:37 <TheUni> what resource requirements?
 314 2013-05-28 02:01:41 <TheUni> runtime, you mean?
 315 2013-05-28 02:01:44 <gmaxwell> Yes.
 316 2013-05-28 02:01:49 <TheUni> ok
 317 2013-05-28 02:01:57 <TheUni> same for android then, i guess?
 318 2013-05-28 02:02:25 <sipa> on android devices you want SPV-style clients typically
 319 2013-05-28 02:02:36 <sipa> (or god forbid, even lower security models)
 320 2013-05-28 02:03:05 <sipa> TheUni: don't get me wrong, it wuld be awesome from a cleansiness perspective that we could support all those platforms
 321 2013-05-28 02:03:20 <TheUni> sipa: well if you can't tell, that's kinda my obsession
 322 2013-05-28 02:03:34 <TheUni> just wondering if there's any actual dev/use desire, other than full-portability
 323 2013-05-28 02:04:10 JohnGalt1337 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 324 2013-05-28 02:04:19 GordonG3kko has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 325 2013-05-28 02:04:29 JohnGalt has joined
 326 2013-05-28 02:04:41 <sipa> given that bitcoin started as a windows-only VS-only GUI-only project, i think we've come a long way already :p
 327 2013-05-28 02:05:06 <TheUni> heh
 328 2013-05-28 02:05:36 jedunnigan has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 329 2013-05-28 02:06:02 GordonG3kko has joined
 330 2013-05-28 02:06:32 <TheUni> ok, well i'll stick with what's supported for now
 331 2013-05-28 02:06:48 <TheUni> off to try to get some win32 deps churned out. thanks again
 332 2013-05-28 02:10:33 BurtyBB has joined
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 336 2013-05-28 02:13:16 <Luke-Jr> TheUni: it might be wise to have make build&run test_bitcoin and print a nasty message if it fails ;p
 337 2013-05-28 02:13:21 <Luke-Jr> that's what my setup does
 338 2013-05-28 02:13:31 <Luke-Jr> (it will fail on ARM/MIPS/etc)
 339 2013-05-28 02:13:53 <TheUni> Luke-Jr: hmm? why should make try to run? that would only work when host=target
 340 2013-05-28 02:13:54 BurtyB has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 341 2013-05-28 02:14:11 oiram has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 342 2013-05-28 02:14:12 <Luke-Jr> yes
 343 2013-05-28 02:14:30 <Luke-Jr> maybe a --enable-tests for it, and have it disabled by default on cross
 344 2013-05-28 02:14:37 <Luke-Jr> (and enabled for native)
 345 2013-05-28 02:14:48 <Luke-Jr> but that can always be a second pullreq after the basics work
 346 2013-05-28 02:14:58 OneFixt has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 347 2013-05-28 02:15:01 <TheUni> yea, --enable-tests is already hooked up
 348 2013-05-28 02:15:03 nimdAHK has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 349 2013-05-28 02:15:12 <TheUni> my plan was to have it on by default, and generate the binary, but not actually run
 350 2013-05-28 02:15:17 <Luke-Jr> hmm
 351 2013-05-28 02:15:28 nimdAHK has joined
 352 2013-05-28 02:15:35 <TheUni> Luke-Jr: downstreams hate that stuff :)
 353 2013-05-28 02:15:48 <Luke-Jr> TheUni: hence the option :P
 354 2013-05-28 02:16:16 <Luke-Jr> I suppose you could add an endian test (I have a nice one in BFGMiner) and just warn during configure if it's a known-problem
 355 2013-05-28 02:16:24 <TheUni> endian test hooked up as well :)
 356 2013-05-28 02:16:32 <Luke-Jr> for ARM, it'd need some kind of alignment test
 357 2013-05-28 02:16:38 <Luke-Jr> TheUni: what are you doing for endian now? :P
 358 2013-05-28 02:16:47 <TheUni> if big, fail
 359 2013-05-28 02:16:50 <Luke-Jr> i c
 360 2013-05-28 02:16:53 <Luke-Jr> what if it's mixed? :P
 361 2013-05-28 02:17:05 <Luke-Jr> (ok, my test doesn't really support mixed either.. :P)
 362 2013-05-28 02:17:09 <alex_fun> lol
 363 2013-05-28 02:17:23 <TheUni> something tells me you guys have bigger build problems than that :p
 364 2013-05-28 02:17:44 <sipa> haha
 365 2013-05-28 02:17:53 <TheUni> ofc, ideally endian would be converted at runtime, so no need for such a check. but i'm picking my battles :)
 366 2013-05-28 02:18:01 <alex_fun> TheUni I dont know alot but all you want to do is compline win client from source?
 367 2013-05-28 02:18:05 <alex_fun> or something else
 368 2013-05-28 02:18:14 <alex_fun> i was reading on new russian startups and a bit here :)
 369 2013-05-28 02:18:22 <TheUni> alex_fun: i'm rewriting the build system
 370 2013-05-28 02:18:25 <Luke-Jr> well yeah, *technically* endian is not fixed for a process runtime, but supporting that is just ridiculous
 371 2013-05-28 02:18:34 <Luke-Jr> err
 372 2013-05-28 02:18:42 <Luke-Jr> it's fixed at runtime, but not necessarily compiletime*
 373 2013-05-28 02:19:00 <alex_fun> TheUni after you rewrite it, which improvements for windows will it offer?
 374 2013-05-28 02:19:34 <TheUni> Luke-Jr: right. what i'm used to is creating one universal binary (to the amount possible, ofc). so, in my opinion, very few things should be decided at compile time
 375 2013-05-28 02:19:50 <TheUni> which is why ifdefs hurt my eyes
 376 2013-05-28 02:20:04 abracadabra has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 377 2013-05-28 02:20:16 abracadabra has joined
 378 2013-05-28 02:20:16 <TheUni> so, i understand that you guys might not care about those things so much, so i have no problem toning it down if necessary...
 379 2013-05-28 02:20:16 abracadabra has quit (Changing host)
 380 2013-05-28 02:20:16 abracadabra has joined
 381 2013-05-28 02:20:21 <TheUni> but that's always my starting point, at least
 382 2013-05-28 02:20:39 <sipa> TheUni: you'll have my secp256k1 library :)
 383 2013-05-28 02:20:42 <sipa> *hate
 384 2013-05-28 02:20:50 rler has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 385 2013-05-28 02:21:00 <sipa> (though all ifdef stuff is for configure-time selectable things)
 386 2013-05-28 02:21:05 <TheUni> heh
 387 2013-05-28 02:21:25 <TheUni> sipa: well, with that said, i completely understand that there are some times where performance needs outweigh portability
 388 2013-05-28 02:21:28 <sipa> oh or debugging
 389 2013-05-28 02:21:38 rler has joined
 390 2013-05-28 02:21:51 <TheUni> so if that's the case, i have no issue there
 391 2013-05-28 02:21:55 Vinnie_win has joined
 392 2013-05-28 02:22:01 <Jere_Jones> sipa: I'm excited about your secp256k1 lib.  The only dependency that I can't (don't) build from source is openssl.
 393 2013-05-28 02:22:09 <Vinnie_win> Sipa here?
 394 2013-05-28 02:22:22 <sipa> Jere_Jones: you can use GMP instead :)
 395 2013-05-28 02:22:25 <sipa> Vinnie_win: no, sorry
 396 2013-05-28 02:22:35 <sipa> :)
 397 2013-05-28 02:22:35 <Jere_Jones> GMP?
 398 2013-05-28 02:22:43 <sipa> libgmp
 399 2013-05-28 02:22:45 <warren> Jere_Jones: why can't and don't?
 400 2013-05-28 02:22:48 <TheUni> grr!
 401 2013-05-28 02:22:59 <TheUni> gitian just randomly dumps files into a dir for each dependency?
 402 2013-05-28 02:23:06 <Jere_Jones> warren: Because I'm on windows and don't have/want perl installed.
 403 2013-05-28 02:23:08 <TheUni> no prefix structure?
 404 2013-05-28 02:23:26 <Vinnie_win> sipa: I have a pull request outstanding to make leveldb a subtree. Since then I have update the leveldb fork to bring it up to 1.10.0 and also in the process fix a deadlock scenario on Windows which is outstanding in the current bitcoin sources. What should I do? Should I update my pull request to include these changes? How do you feel about going to 1.10.0 ?
 405 2013-05-28 02:23:40 px has joined
 406 2013-05-28 02:23:47 <sipa> Vinnie_win: i was just looking at the 1.10 changes actually
 407 2013-05-28 02:23:52 <sipa> they don't seem hard to integrate
 408 2013-05-28 02:23:54 <Vinnie_win> https://github.com/vinniefalco/LevelDB/commits/bitcoin-fork
 409 2013-05-28 02:24:06 <Vinnie_win> This is bitcoin's fork of leveldb with 1.10.0 applied as well as the deadlock fix
 410 2013-05-28 02:24:17 <warren> what can trigger the deadlock?
 411 2013-05-28 02:24:21 <sipa> deadlock fix?
 412 2013-05-28 02:24:23 <sipa> which?
 413 2013-05-28 02:24:25 <Vinnie_win> Too many threads using the condition variable
 414 2013-05-28 02:24:35 <Vinnie_win> http://code.google.com/p/leveldb/issues/detail?id=149 Original issue
 415 2013-05-28 02:24:46 <TheUni> sipa: are you interested/willing to help me out with changing the gitian procedure around a bit?
 416 2013-05-28 02:24:48 <sipa> oh, upstream fix
 417 2013-05-28 02:24:56 <Vinnie_win> Yep. I'm on top of this!
 418 2013-05-28 02:25:31 <Vinnie_win> I can either amend my pull request so that it includes everything from https://github.com/vinniefalco/LevelDB/commits/bitcoin-fork, or I can make a new separate pull request so you can try them both.
 419 2013-05-28 02:26:27 <sipa> TheUni: i personally use a script around gitian that does all the higher-level stuff like choosing the commit to build, and copying inputs and outputs to the correct location
 420 2013-05-28 02:26:53 <TheUni> sipa: the issue is that the depends don't seem to do a 'make install' for each dependency
 421 2013-05-28 02:27:05 <sipa> TheUni: do they need to?
 422 2013-05-28 02:27:14 <TheUni> so you just end up with a random jumble of files in the end
 423 2013-05-28 02:27:27 <TheUni> sipa: sure, if you want to end up with a prefix that's usable for any buildsystem
 424 2013-05-28 02:27:53 <sipa> TheUni: but gitian is not flexible in any way, it's just a script to build one ingle binary
 425 2013-05-28 02:28:12 <warren> a binary you can't debug
 426 2013-05-28 02:28:19 lolcookie__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 427 2013-05-28 02:28:19 <TheUni> sipa: from what i've seen, it's not a problem at all
 428 2013-05-28 02:28:24 <sipa> TheUni: as i said, if you want to clean things up, feel free
 429 2013-05-28 02:28:33 lolcookie__ has joined
 430 2013-05-28 02:28:44 <TheUni> sipa: the process seems pretty deeply flawed to me, but i'm trying avoid touching too much
 431 2013-05-28 02:28:56 <sipa> TheUni: gitian is pretty much the opposite of what you normally need from a build system
 432 2013-05-28 02:29:09 tyn has joined
 433 2013-05-28 02:29:13 <TheUni> sipa: well, as i see it, gitian's not a buildsystem at all
 434 2013-05-28 02:29:27 <TheUni> so i'm confused as to why it's being treated like one
 435 2013-05-28 02:29:33 <sipa> it's not; it's a deterministic environment to produce a single binary
 436 2013-05-28 02:29:44 <TheUni> right
 437 2013-05-28 02:29:55 <TheUni> but in the meantime, it's doing lots of work that (seems to me) should've already been done
 438 2013-05-28 02:29:55 <sipa> as it's not designed to be configurable in any way, or support any architecture not known in advance
 439 2013-05-28 02:30:05 <sipa> such as?
 440 2013-05-28 02:30:13 <TheUni> building depends
 441 2013-05-28 02:30:42 <sipa> well, again: you have certainly much more experience with this, so feel free to improve whatever you think is nice
 442 2013-05-28 02:30:53 <sipa> the only requirement is that gitian keeps working :)
 443 2013-05-28 02:32:19 <TheUni> sipa: well, i don't want to come in like a crazy egomaniac preaching "my way is better, dammit!", because i realize that (rightly so), i'd never get anything merged in that way
 444 2013-05-28 02:32:55 <sipa> i'm not sure how strongly most people feel about the gitian descriptors
 445 2013-05-28 02:33:01 <TheUni> rather, i'd like to help things move to what's (imo) a cleaner approach to things. problem is that it's hard to touch only part of the buildsystem without requiring overhauls elsewhere
 446 2013-05-28 02:33:04 <sipa> they're mostly hacked that have been hacked until they worked
 447 2013-05-28 02:33:35 <sipa> if you go overhaul large amounts of _code_, i think you'll get more opposition
 448 2013-05-28 02:33:53 <TheUni> sipa: well, i certainly understand the role of gitian, and i have no desire to change that. just seems like it's doing more than was intended
 449 2013-05-28 02:34:07 <sipa> it's a script that builds a binary :)
 450 2013-05-28 02:34:33 <sipa> (the descriptors, not gitian itself)
 451 2013-05-28 02:34:39 <Vinnie_win> sipa: Okay, absent a response I have created a separate pull request to bring LevelDB up to 1.10.0 and fix the deadlock. So you can mix and match: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2702
 452 2013-05-28 02:34:47 <TheUni> sure, but you have a pretty big chicken/egg because of it
 453 2013-05-28 02:34:59 guruvan has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 454 2013-05-28 02:34:59 <TheUni> using the bitcoind git repo, i can't build a binary because i haven't built a binary yet :p
 455 2013-05-28 02:35:08 <sipa> huh?
 456 2013-05-28 02:35:26 <sipa> right, you mean dependencies
 457 2013-05-28 02:35:29 <alex_fun> TheUni to me it seems overly complex
 458 2013-05-28 02:35:31 <Vinnie_win> TheUni: You guys are streamlining the build?
 459 2013-05-28 02:35:42 <sipa> Vinnie_win: sorry, i'll answer sooon
 460 2013-05-28 02:35:43 <alex_fun> I simply think use source code and make win clients from it
 461 2013-05-28 02:35:43 <TheUni> sipa: right.
 462 2013-05-28 02:35:57 <Vinnie_win> The bitcoin dependencies are a pain in the ass, I gave up trying to do anything with bitcoin.
 463 2013-05-28 02:36:04 <sipa> TheUni: if you can move part of its responsability to a build system, and adapt the descriptors to still work: that sounds great
 464 2013-05-28 02:36:05 <Vinnie_win> (I'm on Windows using Visual Studio)
 465 2013-05-28 02:36:08 <alex_fun> bs
 466 2013-05-28 02:36:17 <alex_fun> if can use dependencies
 467 2013-05-28 02:36:20 <TheUni> sipa: ok, will do then.
 468 2013-05-28 02:36:22 <alex_fun> *you can
 469 2013-05-28 02:36:28 <alex_fun> and then compile fast
 470 2013-05-28 02:36:33 <alex_fun> with mingw for windows
 471 2013-05-28 02:36:36 <sipa> TheUni: sorry that it took me so long to realize that's what you were after
 472 2013-05-28 02:36:42 <Vinnie_win> alex_fun: Fuck MinGW I don't use that garbage
 473 2013-05-28 02:36:45 <alex_fun> even some lame alts done it
 474 2013-05-28 02:36:49 <alex_fun> well whatever it works
 475 2013-05-28 02:36:49 <alex_fun> :D
 476 2013-05-28 02:37:02 <alex_fun> i dont care what to use as far as it works
 477 2013-05-28 02:37:10 <Vinnie_win> alex_fun: Last I checked, MinGW isn't capable of producing a statically linked executable.
 478 2013-05-28 02:37:26 <sipa> Vinnie_win: afaik, our release binaries are statically linked...
 479 2013-05-28 02:37:33 <TheUni> sipa: no worries. it's an annoying problem. for win32, every project has to figure this out for themselves
 480 2013-05-28 02:37:54 SparkySparkyBoom has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 481 2013-05-28 02:38:15 ralphtheninja has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 482 2013-05-28 02:38:25 <TheUni> sipa: i'll put together a quick cross environment and bootstrap a win32 build to give an idea of my approach
 483 2013-05-28 02:38:57 <TheUni> sipa: one final question though..
 484 2013-05-28 02:39:18 <TheUni> are there official linux releases in distro repos?
 485 2013-05-28 02:39:27 <sipa> there are ubuntu PPA's
 486 2013-05-28 02:39:33 <TheUni> given all of the above discussion, i'd have to assume not
 487 2013-05-28 02:39:34 <sipa> no idea where the build scripts are for those
 488 2013-05-28 02:39:40 <sipa> BlueMatt maintains them
 489 2013-05-28 02:40:05 <TheUni> but they're not officially signed/sanctioned, i presume?
 490 2013-05-28 02:40:18 <TheLordOfTime> sipa:  you mean the build scripts for Ubuntu?
 491 2013-05-28 02:40:36 <TheLordOfTime> i.e. build time command line parameters and such?
 492 2013-05-28 02:40:45 <sipa> TheLordOfTime: yes
 493 2013-05-28 02:40:51 <sipa> TheUni: well, what is official?
 494 2013-05-28 02:40:54 <TheLordOfTime> TheUni:  by default, PPAs in Ubuntu are NOT officially signed
 495 2013-05-28 02:41:05 <TheLordOfTime> sipa:  probably not a bad idea you've got an ubuntu  guy lurking here... :P
 496 2013-05-28 02:41:19 <TheUni> TheLordOfTime: yes they are, launchpad denies your push if it's not signed
 497 2013-05-28 02:41:20 <sipa> i don't see why that is a problem
 498 2013-05-28 02:41:21 <TheLordOfTime> sipa:  typically build-time commandline parameters are in the debian/rules file of the source package
 499 2013-05-28 02:41:33 <TheLordOfTime> TheUni:  s/signed/sanctioned by Canonical/
 500 2013-05-28 02:41:51 <sipa> oh, there is a contrib/debian dir
 501 2013-05-28 02:41:53 <TheLordOfTime> TheUni:  sorry, my mind is running a thousand times faster than my hands
 502 2013-05-28 02:41:56 guruvan has joined
 503 2013-05-28 02:41:59 <TheLordOfTime> yeah that is probably where you need to look
 504 2013-05-28 02:41:59 <TheUni> by canonical, of course not. i meant signed by the upstream project, with an official private key
 505 2013-05-28 02:42:10 <sipa> no clue about all that
 506 2013-05-28 02:42:15 <sipa> talk to BlueMatt
 507 2013-05-28 02:42:39 <Luke-Jr> TheUni: not sure that's even possible, as Canonical does the building..
 508 2013-05-28 02:42:39 <TheLordOfTime> TheUni:  it's signed by BlueMatt's GPG key, but the repository (PPA) it's in has its own key usually
 509 2013-05-28 02:42:41 <TheLordOfTime> tied to the team.
 510 2013-05-28 02:42:50 <TheLordOfTime> as well as a generic "Launchpad PPA" key
 511 2013-05-28 02:42:53 <TheLordOfTime> which is also relevant
 512 2013-05-28 02:43:10 <TheLordOfTime> TheUni:  so you have to specifically outline parameters for "Official"
 513 2013-05-28 02:43:15 <TheUni> sipa: trying to understand, if you guys go to such lengths to produce byte-exact osx/win32 builds, but official ubuntu binaries could be linked to any random lib
 514 2013-05-28 02:43:31 <TheUni> or are the ubuntu scripts just wrappers around gitian?
 515 2013-05-28 02:43:39 <TheLordOfTime> TheUni:  ask BlueMatt
 516 2013-05-28 02:43:46 <TheLordOfTime> sicne BlueMatt is the maintainer
 517 2013-05-28 02:43:46 <sipa> TheUni: no, for ubuntu we simply can't control the build process
 518 2013-05-28 02:44:10 <TheLordOfTime> TheUni:  but for theh build process it usually uses Ubuntu standard-included libraries, and any other dependencies placed in the PPA...
 519 2013-05-28 02:44:13 <TheUni> sure you can, you just can't be in the official repo if you don't follow their guidelines
 520 2013-05-28 02:44:17 <TheLordOfTime> but outside of it, it's automated
 521 2013-05-28 02:44:22 <TheLordOfTime> ... um...
 522 2013-05-28 02:44:35 <TheLordOfTime> TheUni:  not really?  There's a billion other regulations for "in official repo"
 523 2013-05-28 02:44:46 <TheLordOfTime> ideally bitcoin-qt/bitcoind needs to be in Debian first
 524 2013-05-28 02:44:51 <TheLordOfTime> then synced to latest ubuntu dev release
 525 2013-05-28 02:45:02 <TheUni> TheLordOfTime: ofc, i didn't mean that it was the only one. only that static libs would keep you out for sure
 526 2013-05-28 02:45:03 <sipa> well, and then they stick to 0.3.24 for 2 years
 527 2013-05-28 02:45:13 <alex_fun> well  hmm if  build in ubuntu wants dependencies surely it gets official one
 528 2013-05-28 02:45:15 <sipa> because we suddenly have unit tests, and those fail on some of their architectures
 529 2013-05-28 02:45:25 GMP has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 530 2013-05-28 02:45:26 <alex_fun> user simple uses apt get install for example
 531 2013-05-28 02:45:32 <TheLordOfTime> TheUni:  the build dependencies would be the same usually
 532 2013-05-28 02:45:34 <alex_fun> whats the security hole here?
 533 2013-05-28 02:45:35 <alex_fun> :)
 534 2013-05-28 02:45:45 <Vinnie_win> Sounds like a festering pile of poo
 535 2013-05-28 02:45:48 * TheLordOfTime yawns
 536 2013-05-28 02:45:52 <TheUni> but as i said.. i'm not understanding why you'd want to be in a repo that links against upstream system libs if your first concern is byte-exact'ness
 537 2013-05-28 02:45:52 <alex_fun> :)
 538 2013-05-28 02:45:52 <TheLordOfTime> i'm tired of arguing these things, so bleh
 539 2013-05-28 02:45:59 <alex_fun> sounds pike mental mastrubation!
 540 2013-05-28 02:46:00 <alex_fun> :D
 541 2013-05-28 02:46:01 <alex_fun> like
 542 2013-05-28 02:46:12 * TheLordOfTime is tired of explaining the ubuntu dev process, since he's done it 20 times today
 543 2013-05-28 02:46:13 ColinT has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 544 2013-05-28 02:46:15 * TheLordOfTime goes back to -otc
 545 2013-05-28 02:46:31 <Vinnie_win> What would be cool is if I put together a source code library that did everything a p2p crypto app needs like sockets, websockets, RPC, json, SSL, TLS, thread / synchronization primitives, atomics, and it had no external dependencies and worked on all platforms.
 546 2013-05-28 02:46:38 <TheUni> TheLordOfTime: you don't need to explain any of it, i've maintained several big debian/ubuntu packages
 547 2013-05-28 02:46:44 <Luke-Jr> TheUni: byte-exactness is a "why you can trust this isn't infected"
 548 2013-05-28 02:46:51 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 549 2013-05-28 02:46:51 <TheUni> i'm curious as to this particular project and how it works
 550 2013-05-28 02:47:03 <Luke-Jr> TheUni: it'd be nice if the OS in question was entirely byte-exact, but that's far off still
 551 2013-05-28 02:47:44 <sipa> TheUni: to be honest, we probbably care more about gitian byte-exact binaries than users do
 552 2013-05-28 02:47:56 <TheUni> sipa: well, it's a worthy goal...
 553 2013-05-28 02:47:57 <Luke-Jr> so yes, someone could put a trojan in the PPA - but to do so, they'd also be able to infect your normal Ubuntu updates for the same thing
 554 2013-05-28 02:48:15 <sipa> TheUni: but it's a nice thing you can say: don't trust our releases? go check them!
 555 2013-05-28 02:48:30 <TheUni> but i can understand how a binary signed by a bitcoin private key would be almost as good
 556 2013-05-28 02:49:28 <TheUni> (meaning: a build that comes from the ubuntu repo that uses ubuntu libs that aren't a part of the bitcoin tree, then the result signed)
 557 2013-05-28 02:50:51 <Vinnie_win> static libraries are passe
 558 2013-05-28 02:50:54 <TheUni> anyway, i didn't mean to stir things up. still just trying to understand how things are done.
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 564 2013-05-28 02:54:40 <Vinnie_win> sipa: Do you have any questions before I go?
 565 2013-05-28 02:55:13 <sipa> Vinnie_win: oh, not really
 566 2013-05-28 02:55:25 <sipa> Vinnie_win: i like the idea of subtrees so far
 567 2013-05-28 02:55:56 <sipa> though i suppose we'll want "our" leveldb version in a bitcoin/leveldb repo, at least until we get the win32 stuff merged upstream
 568 2013-05-28 02:56:16 <Vinnie_win> You can just fork mine https://github.com/vinniefalco/LevelDB
 569 2013-05-28 02:56:43 <sipa> is there any reference in the repo itself to the repo holding the subtree?
 570 2013-05-28 02:56:47 <Vinnie_win> Nope.
 571 2013-05-28 02:56:51 <sipa> that's nice
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 573 2013-05-28 02:56:58 <Vinnie_win> Yeah thats why I like subtree, and dislike submodules
 574 2013-05-28 02:57:01 fiesh has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 575 2013-05-28 02:57:28 <Vinnie_win> I would like the win32 stuff merged upstream, which is why I made the repo and recreated the commit log from bitcoin's fork
 576 2013-05-28 02:57:45 fiesh has joined
 577 2013-05-28 02:58:32 <sipa> hmm, that SignalAll change is strange
 578 2013-05-28 02:58:44 <Vinnie_win> I can't speak for the changes, they were not written by me.
 579 2013-05-28 02:58:52 <sipa> but i'm not familiar enough with win api changes to judge
 580 2013-05-28 02:58:54 <Vinnie_win> Condition variables are notoriously difficult to implement correctly on Windows
 581 2013-05-28 02:58:58 <sipa> -changes
 582 2013-05-28 02:59:57 <Vinnie_win> ...bitcoin doesn't use websockets right?
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 586 2013-05-28 03:06:18 <sipa> no
 587 2013-05-28 03:06:18 <sipa> ok, i'm off
 588 2013-05-28 03:06:19 <sipa> i'd like to pull thr 1.10 changes, after 0.8.2 final
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 591 2013-05-28 03:19:31 <Luke-Jr> I don't know if I like subtrees
 592 2013-05-28 03:19:40 <Luke-Jr> especially how it's being used there
 593 2013-05-28 03:19:51 <Luke-Jr> submodules are really the right tool for it anyway
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 595 2013-05-28 03:27:41 <Vinnie_win> submodules are shitty and brittle.
 596 2013-05-28 03:28:27 dwon is now known as dlitz
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 601 2013-05-28 03:30:20 <Luke-Jr> Vinnie_win: they work great, EXCEPT for using another repo for the fetch
 602 2013-05-28 03:30:27 <Zoop_> i wanted to change my blockchain to other drive
 603 2013-05-28 03:30:40 <Luke-Jr> there's no reason submodules couldn't/shouldn't store the upstream commits in the same repo :/
 604 2013-05-28 03:30:45 <Zoop_> any tutorial you guys know?
 605 2013-05-28 03:31:50 swulf-- has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 606 2013-05-28 03:32:05 <skywalk> i have a bitcoin project, looking to find php programmer if anyone interrested, pm me
 607 2013-05-28 03:32:39 <Luke-Jr> skywalk: #bitcoin-tech for that
 608 2013-05-28 03:32:43 <Luke-Jr> or #bitcoin-otc
 609 2013-05-28 03:32:47 <skywalk> otc = ?
 610 2013-05-28 03:33:13 <Zoop_> over the counter
 611 2013-05-28 03:33:27 <skywalk> thx fellow luke
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 621 2013-05-28 03:50:52 <EvilPete> oh wow.  https://blockchain.info/block-height/238294  number of transactions = 1.
 622 2013-05-28 03:54:32 <lianj> why wow? happens some times
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 625 2013-05-28 04:00:01 <EvilPete> lianj: oh sure, I know it happens.  I was just looking at the 2000+ backlog my clients have.
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 642 2013-05-28 04:25:02 <BDCrate> YOU CAN GO YOUR OWN way ... you could go your own way. LOL lost on btc devs. good song tho
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 674 2013-05-28 05:10:55 <Vinnie_win> Luke-Jr are you here?
 675 2013-05-28 05:11:03 <Luke-Jr> ?
 676 2013-05-28 05:11:14 <Vinnie_win> Here's the problem with submodules, and why they are inappropriate in bitcoin's specific case.
 677 2013-05-28 05:11:28 <Vinnie_win> Bitcoin has forked LevelDB, to apply the windows port and also to fix some bugs.
 678 2013-05-28 05:11:44 <Vinnie_win> As a subtree, LevelDB is a lot more convenient because it is possible for bitcoin developers to make changes to the sources and commit them into the bitcoin repo.
 679 2013-05-28 05:12:00 <Vinnie_win> With git-subtree it is possible to split the subtree out into a separate branch so that it can be merged with the upstream
 680 2013-05-28 05:12:18 <Vinnie_win> For example: https://github.com/vinniefalco/LevelDB/commits/bitcoin-fork
 681 2013-05-28 05:12:40 <Luke-Jr> submodules can do all that..
 682 2013-05-28 05:12:41 <Vinnie_win> I took Bitcoin's changes to LevelDB and re-created the original commit log with bitcoin's commits replayed on top of it so that it has an intact history
 683 2013-05-28 05:12:58 <Vinnie_win> Submodules are a hack on top of git.
 684 2013-05-28 05:13:14 <Vinnie_win> You don't have write access to the google repo - to which repository would you place Bitcoin's changes?
 685 2013-05-28 05:13:37 <Luke-Jr> http://github.com/bitcoin/leveldb (not existing today)
 686 2013-05-28 05:13:45 <Luke-Jr> also, Bitcoin shouldn't have any changes at this point..
 687 2013-05-28 05:14:10 <Luke-Jr> Vinnie_win: also, note I did agree the submodules should ideally store commits in the same repo :P
 688 2013-05-28 05:14:20 <Vinnie_win> well then at that point you have git-subtree.
 689 2013-05-28 05:14:32 <Vinnie_win> I'm guessing you probably haven't used git-subtree which might be a possible explanation for your aversion.
 690 2013-05-28 05:14:33 <Luke-Jr> not quite
 691 2013-05-28 05:14:37 <Luke-Jr> subtree is more of a hack IMO
 692 2013-05-28 05:14:51 <Vinnie_win> subtree doesn't do anything strange to the repository, it only does what a person can do manually using regular git.
 693 2013-05-28 05:14:52 <Luke-Jr> I haven't used it, no. I'm commenting from what I've read in your pullreq and docs
 694 2013-05-28 05:15:05 <Luke-Jr> just because someone can do it manually, doesn't mean it isn't a hack
 695 2013-05-28 05:15:10 <Luke-Jr> also, submodules *are* regular git :P
 696 2013-05-28 05:15:33 Thepok has joined
 697 2013-05-28 05:15:49 <Vinnie_win> Anyway, my development philosophy is fundamentally at odds with git-submodule and other choices made in the Bitcoin repo which is why I am not active with it.
 698 2013-05-28 05:15:56 nus has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 699 2013-05-28 05:15:59 <Luke-Jr> hmm, I wonder if one could configure a submodule to use $PWD somehow
 700 2013-05-28 05:15:59 <Vinnie_win> I've said my piece, by all means continue on with what you are most comfortable with.
 701 2013-05-28 05:16:27 <Luke-Jr> Vinnie_win: it's silly to make decisions like this (right or wrong) influence whether one is involved in a project
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 704 2013-05-28 05:16:31 <Luke-Jr> that's just being pedantic
 705 2013-05-28 05:16:54 <Vinnie_win> gotta run, "Arrested Development" awaits
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 707 2013-05-28 05:17:54 <Vinnie_win> http://blogs.atlassian.com/2013/05/alternatives-to-git-submodule-git-subtree/
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 710 2013-05-28 05:22:48 <pigeons> offtopic i know but i have to remark that Luke-Jr finds someone else silly and pedantic ;)
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 712 2013-05-28 05:28:08 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, i have that guy ignored
 713 2013-05-28 05:28:16 <phantomcircuit> it's hilarious watching you argue with nobody
 714 2013-05-28 05:28:17 <phantomcircuit> that is all
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 815 2013-05-28 08:21:47 <BlueMatt> TheUni: TheLordOfTime the reason an ubuntu ppa exists is because debian/ubuntu are both always behind (to the point that using their official packages is highly discouraged, sometime to the point of security vulnerabilities in them, other times they simply wont connect to the network because they are so old)
 816 2013-05-28 08:21:59 <BlueMatt> and because they link against non-4.8 bdb
 817 2013-05-28 08:22:14 <BlueMatt> which means wallets are not compatible with other official bitcoin builds unless you use the ppa
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 858 2013-05-28 09:21:01 <BTCOxygen> What's the current MAX blocksize ?
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 860 2013-05-28 09:22:17 <BlueMatt> 1mb
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 913 2013-05-28 10:42:02 <tonikt> Could anyone please tell me a formula to calculate network's hashrate, from average blocks-per-hour and difficulty?
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 917 2013-05-28 10:44:37 <tonikt> Never mind. I found it http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/11139/how-is-the-network-hash-rate-calculated
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 964 2013-05-28 11:55:11 <robbak> Whenever I have a unplanned shutdown, I need to nuke the peers.dat to get bitcoin to run.
 965 2013-05-28 11:55:21 <robbak> Anyway I can help debug/fix this?
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 967 2013-05-28 11:57:21 <BlueMatt> provide a backtrace and file a bug?
 968 2013-05-28 12:00:03 <robbak> O.K. I'll have to do a debug build, but I have got a repeatable crash.
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 972 2013-05-28 12:01:00 <robbak> It dies with a runaway exception, but doesn't leave a stack to backtrace.
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 974 2013-05-28 12:01:16 <robbak> std::bad_alloc
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 983 2013-05-28 12:04:39 <BlueMatt> run it in gdb
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 986 2013-05-28 12:07:01 <robbak> Yes, did that.
 987 2013-05-28 12:07:02 <robbak> EXCEPTION: St9bad_alloc
 988 2013-05-28 12:07:04 <robbak> std::bad_alloc
 989 2013-05-28 12:07:05 <robbak> bitcoin in Runaway exception
 990 2013-05-28 12:07:07 <robbak> [Thread 809813000 (LWP 100419/bitcoin-qt) exited]
 991 2013-05-28 12:07:08 <robbak> Program exited with code 01.
 992 2013-05-28 12:07:10 <robbak> (gdb) bt
 993 2013-05-28 12:07:11 <robbak> No stack.
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 997 2013-05-28 12:08:13 <BlueMatt> ehh...why did gdb not catch the exception before it exited
 998 2013-05-28 12:10:46 <robbak> I'm building with gcc 4.2.1
 999 2013-05-28 12:11:20 <robbak> gdb 6.1.1
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1003 2013-05-28 12:17:45 <warren> robbak: does that happen during startup or shutdown?
1004 2013-05-28 12:17:54 <robbak> During startup.
1005 2013-05-28 12:18:17 <robbak> fixed by removing peers.dat. Happens when I move the 'broken' peers.dat back.
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1007 2013-05-28 12:19:13 <robbak> Running 0.8.2rc3
1008 2013-05-28 12:19:43 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2701  another runaway exception
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1013 2013-05-28 12:37:52 <robbak> warren, any ideas where I could set a breakpoint to catch this one?
1014 2013-05-28 12:38:11 <warren> robbak: dunno, I didn't have time to look into this
1015 2013-05-28 12:38:35 <robbak> I've got a debug build, at least.
1016 2013-05-28 12:39:19 <warren> bdb needs to die.
1017 2013-05-28 12:41:02 <Jere_Jones> Speaking of which, if we moved to leveldb, why is berkeleydb still a dependency?
1018 2013-05-28 12:41:23 <robbak> The wallet is still in gdb.
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1021 2013-05-28 12:41:37 <robbak> histerical raisins.
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1024 2013-05-28 12:42:17 <Jere_Jones> It would be nice to get rid of it entirely...
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1026 2013-05-28 12:45:59 <robbak> When you can paste a backtrace into irc without worrying about annoying people, it's probably not all that useful.
1027 2013-05-28 12:46:04 <robbak> bt
1028 2013-05-28 12:46:06 <robbak> #0  handleRunawayException (e=0x81dbfb1f0) at src/qt/bitcoin.cpp:110
1029 2013-05-28 12:46:07 <robbak> #1  0x0000000000433fcf in main (argc=1, argv=<value optimized out>) at src/qt/bitcoin.cpp:291
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1034 2013-05-28 12:55:54 <warren> even if you got rid of bdb, you still need bdb
1035 2013-05-28 12:56:05 <warren> or the client wouldn't be able to import the old db
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1037 2013-05-28 13:00:27 <Jere_Jones> I could imagine an "upgrade your wallet" utility.
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1039 2013-05-28 13:03:08 <Jere_Jones> Or "Upgrade to 0.8 before you upgrade to 0.9" where 0.8 still has the bdb stuff but 0.9 does not.
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1041 2013-05-28 13:07:30 <Eliel> I've seen tools that extract private keys from an unencrypted wallet.dat without a dependency on bdb.
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1045 2013-05-28 13:08:01 <Eliel> no idea if encryption complicates the extraction much
1046 2013-05-28 13:08:53 <Jere_Jones> It's a nice idea (I like it), but I'm sure there are more important places to spend the energy.
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1078 2013-05-28 13:54:51 <btcls> where a "bitcoin CLIENT" is a locally stored program to send and recieve bitcoins that also includes the blockchain ... and ...where a "bitcoin WALLET" is an online service that does not require the blockchain to be stored locally ....
1079 2013-05-28 13:55:22 <btcls> is it correct to say, "wallets have been broken into - but bitcoin clients never have?"
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1081 2013-05-28 13:57:56 <Vinnie_win> "break in" to a bitcoin client could mean to hack the computer upon which the client runs, and do stuff like install a keylogger then download someone's wallet.dat
1082 2013-05-28 13:58:42 <btcls> ya but the computer is hacked first ...not the bitcoin client ...
1083 2013-05-28 13:58:52 <Ry4an> btcls: most people would disagree w/ your definition of wallet.
1084 2013-05-28 13:59:03 <btcls> however, there have been instance of online wallet servers being hacked
1085 2013-05-28 13:59:07 <Ry4an> That term / concept /thing existed way before there were any online services offering to host wallets.
1086 2013-05-28 13:59:09 <Vinnie_win> As far as I know there has't been a vulnerability found in the client
1087 2013-05-28 14:00:08 <btcls> Ry4an: hmmmm ... on my site a define client and wallet differently ... have a better way to explain the difference ?
1088 2013-05-28 14:00:24 <Vinnie_win> A client participates in the peer to peer network.
1089 2013-05-28 14:00:39 <Ry4an> if you definition of wallet includes the word "online" it's wrong.  There are fully offline wallets and always have been.
1090 2013-05-28 14:00:50 <Scrat> Vinnie_win: there was this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Common_Vulnerabilities_and_Exposures#CVE-2010-5141
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1092 2013-05-28 14:00:56 <btcls> Vinnie_win: i agree can not google up a client weakness
1093 2013-05-28 14:00:59 <Scrat> but it was never exploited out in the wild
1094 2013-05-28 14:01:27 <Vinnie_win> Scrat: That's more of a bug in the protocol and not a way to exploit a particular client though...or am I mistaken?
1095 2013-05-28 14:01:27 <Ry4an> there are "hosted wallets" where someone else holds a wallet for you, but that's a tiny sliver of all the wallets in the universe and definitely not an intrinsic part of what "a wallet" is.
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1098 2013-05-28 14:02:03 <btcls> Ry4an: these "fully offline" wallets include the complete block chain ? if they do ...then I define that as a bitcoin client ...not wallet
1099 2013-05-28 14:02:40 <Scrat> Vinnie_win: pretty sure it counts as a client exploit
1100 2013-05-28 14:02:46 <Ry4an> btcls: no wallets include the block chain.  Clients contain copies of the blockchain, but no wallet does.  A wallet is a collection of keys more or less
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1103 2013-05-28 14:03:46 <btcls> Ry4an: hmmm
1104 2013-05-28 14:03:48 <Ry4an> so an online-wallet is you trusting someone else to hold keys, and the wallet in your client is your holding on to your own keys, but neither include storing the blockchain.
1105 2013-05-28 14:04:00 <Scrat> although if that ever happened a new fork would be created without the exploited transactions (and none would really stay on the exploited one)
1106 2013-05-28 14:04:05 <Ry4an> and I have not-online wallets that aren't part of a client too (see paper wallet)
1107 2013-05-28 14:04:25 <btcls> aaaaah .... gotcha ....ty
1108 2013-05-28 14:04:30 <Ry4an> np.
1109 2013-05-28 14:05:07 <Scrat> Vinnie_win: oh it's you. hello
1110 2013-05-28 14:05:25 <btcls> I am attempting to redefine words/terms that are already well accepted ....just trying to teach get the whole thing first ... then learn about online services to store keys etc
1111 2013-05-28 14:06:17 <Vinnie_win> Me? Who am "I"? lol
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1114 2013-05-28 14:07:25 <btcls> thanx again ...back to the drawing board for the webpage i am working on ...thanks again
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1116 2013-05-28 14:09:35 <Ry4an> btcls: maybe building an explainer web page when you're still putting the pieces together yourself will cause more confusion than it alleviates?
1117 2013-05-28 14:10:33 <btcls> Ry4an: hope not ... i am trying to make it easy for the housewife ...but technically correct for those is this room ...its not as easy as I thought it would be to do
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1119 2013-05-28 14:11:16 <btcls> i forgot about "paper wallets" ...they are not even programs ...but still "wallets" as accepted by the bitcoin community
1120 2013-05-28 14:11:30 <Ry4an> I fear that'll be case, but more power to you.  Also you shouldn't use gender in that way.  Also inappropriate: "for grandma and grandpa"
1121 2013-05-28 14:11:58 <btcls> ya ya oc
1122 2013-05-28 14:12:12 <Ry4an> yeah, there's a whole taxonomy of walelts including paper, and deterministic, and hosted, and within-a-client, and wihtin-a-program-thats-not-a-full client.
1123 2013-05-28 14:12:28 <btcls> brain wallets etc etc
1124 2013-05-28 14:12:49 <Ry4an> some are subsets of other ones and one could probably build a venn diagram that wouldn't be un-helpful.
1125 2013-05-28 14:13:32 <btcls> ya i need to work on it some more ...but that is why i love this room ...you guys correct everytime
1126 2013-05-28 14:13:40 <btcls> getting close though
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1128 2013-05-28 14:17:29 <robbak> I think I've got it. After the crash, the peers.dat ends up at zero bytes. It then tries to resize a vector to 0 - sizeof(uint256), which is negative. vector::resize takes the int as unsigned, and tries to allocate 18hextillion bytes, which throws and exception!
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1132 2013-05-28 14:19:18 <robbak> src/db.cpp, line 543. Found, if someone else doesn't place a fix, I'll look at it myself tomorrow.
1133 2013-05-28 14:19:30 <robbak> If warren is interested, or anyone else.
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1136 2013-05-28 14:22:47 <btcls> In the bitcoin world the terms "bitcoin wallet" and "bitcoin client" tend to be used interchangeably.   However, on this webpage, for the sake of simplicity  - #####.com makes a temporary distinction between a "wallet" and a "client".  It is important to understand the difference. There are many hybrid versions between clients and wallets.
1137 2013-05-28 14:22:53 <Vinnie_win> How about a meat wallet?
1138 2013-05-28 14:22:59 <Mad7Scientist> Bitcoin is at 100% CPU and 1.2GB memory
1139 2013-05-28 14:23:19 <btcls> thats is my first sentence on the page ...
1140 2013-05-28 14:23:45 <btcls> and will explain paper and brain and hybrids as i go ...should work technically i think
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1142 2013-05-28 14:24:26 <Mad7Scientist> must be a bug / DoS attack
1143 2013-05-28 14:25:35 <Mad7Scientist> I guess I'll have to shut it down
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1145 2013-05-28 14:27:07 <btcls> omg ...got it thanks ..POOF
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1147 2013-05-28 14:28:00 <Ry4an> btcls: if you're targeting the "lay audience" you're overshooting w/ your prose.  Also this really sounds like something that shoudl move to #bitcoin unless you're going to start compiling this. :)
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1155 2013-05-28 14:34:47 <Mad7Scientist> oh well had to restart bitcoin-qt
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1178 2013-05-28 14:40:54 <marketanarchist> is there anyone here who is capable of building an altcoin for me, i would pay and its not a scam, it would actually create new utility
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1221 2013-05-28 14:42:56 <marketanarchist> is there anyone here who is capable of building an altcoin for me, i would pay and its not a scam, it would actually create new utility (sorry if this is repeat im not sure if it went through the first time)
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1225 2013-05-28 14:44:01 <Ry4an> it did go through.
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1229 2013-05-28 14:46:31 <marketanarchist> guess ill ask again at a better time
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1231 2013-05-28 14:47:31 <lianj> marketanarchist: what are the variables? how should it be different than bitcoin?
1232 2013-05-28 14:48:07 rid3 has joined
1233 2013-05-28 14:48:43 <Ry4an> marketanarchist: you'll probably have better luck in the -dev channels for some existing altcoins.  Those are filled w/ people who have a demonistrated willingness to dilute the bitcoin mindshare. ;)
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1238 2013-05-28 14:52:40 <marketanarchist> so it has been suggested to me that i explain my intentions here with this alt coin idea
1239 2013-05-28 14:53:49 <marketanarchist> the idea is to make the max block size a function of network propagation times as a function of target block rate as well as offer a perpetual block reward and delete all blocks off of the blockchain that are more than 7 days old
1240 2013-05-28 14:54:23 <marketanarchist> this will allow people to leverage the functionality that bitcoin already has of storing communications in the block chain and allow for a sort of decentralized email
1241 2013-05-28 14:54:26 <michagogo> Not sure about all that
1242 2013-05-28 14:54:38 jgarzik has joined
1243 2013-05-28 14:54:40 <michagogo> But "delete all blocks off of the blockchain that are more than 7 days old" seems like a spectacularly bad idea
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1245 2013-05-28 14:54:52 <marketanarchist> yea it would mean that it wouldnt work as a currency
1246 2013-05-28 14:54:57 <marketanarchist> but i think thats good
1247 2013-05-28 14:55:01 jgarzik is now known as Guest31263
1248 2013-05-28 14:55:06 <marketanarchist> i dont want to compete with bitcoin
1249 2013-05-28 14:55:19 <lianj> marketanarchist: how to verify the blockchain if you delete old blocks?
1250 2013-05-28 14:55:46 <marketanarchist> hopefully no attackers would be able to compramize the network for long enough for that to be a problem lianj
1251 2013-05-28 14:55:56 <lianj> marketanarchist: also, have you looked at bitmessage?
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1255 2013-05-28 14:56:27 <marketanarchist> hm if someone could maintain 51% for like a week they could mint themselves infinity coins
1256 2013-05-28 14:56:42 <marketanarchist> that would be one effect of only keeping the blokchain for a week
1257 2013-05-28 14:57:08 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
1258 2013-05-28 15:01:34 <dugo> I'm coming up so you better get this party started
1259 2013-05-28 15:01:42 <dugo> wrong window .. sry
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1263 2013-05-28 15:04:26 <funky> hey folks
1264 2013-05-28 15:04:54 <funky> if someone wants to erase part of the chain that is using checkpoints he have to resolve every pow?
1265 2013-05-28 15:04:57 <funky> backwards
1266 2013-05-28 15:05:15 <funky> its just many people saying small hash coin chains are insecure
1267 2013-05-28 15:05:33 <funky> however to me it seems if checkpoints are constantly added they are pretty safe
1268 2013-05-28 15:06:11 <funky> even if someone uses tons of hash to start deleting blocks somehow his new fork wont match any of the checkpoints
1269 2013-05-28 15:06:32 <funky> so really chain does not need that many miners all together ?
1270 2013-05-28 15:06:38 <lianj> how to distribute the checkpoints?
1271 2013-05-28 15:07:49 <funky> lianji good question, 1)  I heard newest QT auto update checkpoints from Github aka push
1272 2013-05-28 15:08:12 <funky> I think thats the best, else miners have to recompile alot
1273 2013-05-28 15:08:19 <michagogo> funky: As far as I know, that's not the case
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1275 2013-05-28 15:08:31 <michagogo> Pretty sure that checkpoints are simply hardcoded in
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1278 2013-05-28 15:09:12 <funky> michagogo in this case QT can be publicly modified to effect such changes
1279 2013-05-28 15:09:25 <michagogo> funky: Maybe you mean bitcoin-qt
1280 2013-05-28 15:09:28 <funky> yes
1281 2013-05-28 15:09:42 <michagogo> qt itself is a framework or toolkit or something like that
1282 2013-05-28 15:10:04 <funky> ok I have been told that all coinds clients auto download newest checkpoints from git
1283 2013-05-28 15:10:07 <funky> coins
1284 2013-05-28 15:10:14 <funky> bitcoin included
1285 2013-05-28 15:10:26 <funky> maybe it was disinformation so good I check here :)
1286 2013-05-28 15:10:31 <marketanarchist> since this coin wouldnt be designed to hold any more value than was necissary to protect against spam it shouldnt be a big deal if people delete blocks or reverse transactions
1287 2013-05-28 15:10:35 <marketanarchist> or i should say
1288 2013-05-28 15:10:41 <marketanarchist> there shouldnt ever be any incentive
1289 2013-05-28 15:10:47 <michagogo> funky: IMHO, more likely misinformation than disinformation
1290 2013-05-28 15:11:33 <funky> nods
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1294 2013-05-28 15:11:49 <Scrat> funky: checkpoints are hardcoded so no
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1296 2013-05-28 15:12:00 <funky> in this case yes add such feauture and then chain can work with min max miners, does not matter how many
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1298 2013-05-28 15:12:13 <funky> in some cases clients who want to transact might have to mine :)
1299 2013-05-28 15:12:40 <marketanarchist> at first, but it could pretty soon be used to build its own markets ontop of its self
1300 2013-05-28 15:12:44 <marketanarchist> decentralized markets =D
1301 2013-05-28 15:13:05 <marketanarchist> you would need to get a bit of seed capital from somewhere to start participating though
1302 2013-05-28 15:14:12 <funky> :)
1303 2013-05-28 15:14:24 <funky> marketanarchist:  what do u mean exactly?
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1305 2013-05-28 15:14:43 <funky> i got one more idea, use some scrypt to rent adult site pages so visitors mine btc
1306 2013-05-28 15:14:45 <funky> and split %
1307 2013-05-28 15:14:51 <funky> *script
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1309 2013-05-28 15:15:01 <funky> however with current diff is not very effective
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1323 2013-05-28 15:24:22 <JyZyXEL> how does bitcoind discover other nodes?
1324 2013-05-28 15:24:48 <JyZyXEL> doesn't it have to connect some kind of central server at like, say bitcoin.org?
1325 2013-05-28 15:25:05 <michagogo> JyZyXEL: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Satoshi_Client_Node_Discovery
1326 2013-05-28 15:25:23 <JyZyXEL> thank you
1327 2013-05-28 15:25:41 <michagogo> Luke-Jr, sipa, BlueMatt, and I think a couple other people have DNS seeds
1328 2013-05-28 15:25:50 <michagogo> That respond with random node addresses or something
1329 2013-05-28 15:26:14 <Luke-Jr> JyZyXEL: note that if the client's ever been used before, it uses a list of nodes it saved from last time
1330 2013-05-28 15:26:27 <Luke-Jr> so the DNS seeds and hardcoded IP lists are only used for new nodes once
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1341 2013-05-28 15:38:20 <jouke> Is there a simple way to get the qt-client with payment protocol support?
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1349 2013-05-28 15:46:28 <jouke> nm
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1353 2013-05-28 15:47:37 <Mad7Scientist> bitcoin is locked up again help
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1356 2013-05-28 15:50:02 <Ry4an> Mad7Scientist: fuckin' cops
1357 2013-05-28 15:50:30 <Mad7Scientist> Ry4an, what's that mean?
1358 2013-05-28 15:51:19 <Ry4an> As if bitcoin had been thrown in jail.  Presumably you me your bitcoin client is locked up?
1359 2013-05-28 15:51:29 <Ry4an> s/me/mean/
1360 2013-05-28 15:52:09 <Mad7Scientist> 1.2GB of ram used
1361 2013-05-28 15:52:17 jgarzik__ has joined
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1363 2013-05-28 15:53:19 <Mad7Scientist> some memory leak DoS?
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1372 2013-05-28 15:57:19 <sipa> Mad7Scientist: 100% cpu usage? is it doing initial block download? how many blocks left?
1373 2013-05-28 15:57:27 <Mad7Scientist> up to date
1374 2013-05-28 15:57:32 <Mad7Scientist> way to many threads
1375 2013-05-28 15:57:34 gjj has joined
1376 2013-05-28 15:57:41 <Mad7Scientist> it made it up to 1.2GB this morning
1377 2013-05-28 15:58:04 BCBot has joined
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1380 2013-05-28 15:59:10 <Mad7Scientist> currently 25 threads and 520mb used. going in and out of 100% cpu and being frozen
1381 2013-05-28 15:59:24 zer0def has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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1384 2013-05-28 16:00:04 <lianj> what version?
1385 2013-05-28 16:00:32 <Mad7Scientist> 0.8.1
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1389 2013-05-28 16:04:22 <Mad7Scientist> http://pastebin.ca/2383907
1390 2013-05-28 16:04:30 <Mad7Scientist> backtrace after attaching to the 100% cpu thread
1391 2013-05-28 16:06:07 Plinker has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1396 2013-05-28 16:07:14 <Mad7Scientist> up to 567MB of ram used now
1397 2013-05-28 16:08:03 dfdf has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1398 2013-05-28 16:09:00 <BlueMatt> Mad7Scientist: you are mining on it
1399 2013-05-28 16:09:12 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1400 2013-05-28 16:09:18 <Mad7Scientist> yes
1401 2013-05-28 16:09:41 <Mad7Scientist> been mining for a while
1402 2013-05-28 16:09:42 <sipa> ok you're continuously asking for work
1403 2013-05-28 16:09:49 <sipa> it can't keep up
1404 2013-05-28 16:09:55 <BlueMatt> if that is indeed the bt of the bad thread, then you are pegging rpc
1405 2013-05-28 16:10:10 <Mad7Scientist> what about the memory leak?
1406 2013-05-28 16:10:20 bitit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1407 2013-05-28 16:10:37 <BlueMatt> upgrade to 0.8.2
1408 2013-05-28 16:11:01 <Mad7Scientist> is the problem fixed?
1409 2013-05-28 16:11:17 <sipa> depends what you call problem
1410 2013-05-28 16:11:19 <gavinandresen> Speaking of 0.8.2… I'd like to tag rc3 as 0.8.2 final either today or tomorrow.
1411 2013-05-28 16:11:30 taha has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1412 2013-05-28 16:11:39 <Mad7Scientist> the lockup + memory leak I'm having
1413 2013-05-28 16:11:44 <michagogo> gavinandresen: Is that another gitian build?
1414 2013-05-28 16:11:50 <sipa> there is no memory leak, but there have been significant improvements in how much memory os used
1415 2013-05-28 16:11:51 <gavinandresen> michagogo: yes, it will be
1416 2013-05-28 16:11:53 <sipa> lockup?
1417 2013-05-28 16:12:02 <Mad7Scientist> 1.2GB is not a lek?
1418 2013-05-28 16:12:07 <michagogo> Any actual changes besides the version number?
1419 2013-05-28 16:12:24 <BlueMatt> high memory usage isnt /always/ a memory leak
1420 2013-05-28 16:12:26 <Mad7Scientist> up to 576MB already
1421 2013-05-28 16:12:40 <gavinandresen> Mad7Scientist: please install 0.8.2 and let us know if that fixes the problem
1422 2013-05-28 16:12:41 <sipa> Mad7Scientist: is that actual memory ised (resident set) or just allocated?
1423 2013-05-28 16:13:14 <Mad7Scientist> virt 1248MB res 581MB
1424 2013-05-28 16:13:26 <sipa> ok, the res counts
1425 2013-05-28 16:13:42 <BlueMatt> do you have lots of connections?
1426 2013-05-28 16:13:43 <sipa> i've seen it go 700 or so
1427 2013-05-28 16:13:48 <Mad7Scientist> 8 connections
1428 2013-05-28 16:13:58 <BlueMatt> ehhhh...wat?
1429 2013-05-28 16:14:03 <sipa> 800 even
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1431 2013-05-28 16:14:13 <sipa> BlueMatt: with 0.8.2
1432 2013-05-28 16:14:15 <michagogo> Hmm, I went to check mine
1433 2013-05-28 16:14:18 <Mad7Scientist> usually 200MB res is typical
1434 2013-05-28 16:14:27 <michagogo> I'm not having bitcoin use any memory at all
1435 2013-05-28 16:14:29 <sipa> not anumore
1436 2013-05-28 16:14:34 <michagogo> :-P
1437 2013-05-28 16:14:35 <BlueMatt> sipa: 700m res on 0.8.2?
1438 2013-05-28 16:14:46 <sipa> BlueMatt: yes, more
1439 2013-05-28 16:14:49 <BlueMatt> with < 500 conn?
1440 2013-05-28 16:14:58 <BlueMatt> have you heap profiled it?
1441 2013-05-28 16:15:00 sacredchao has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1443 2013-05-28 16:15:49 <sipa> BlueMatt: 185 connections
1444 2013-05-28 16:16:12 <sipa> but it seems correlated with mempoll growth
1445 2013-05-28 16:16:13 <Mad7Scientist> it got to 1.2GB this morning
1446 2013-05-28 16:16:14 <BlueMatt> have you heap profiled it? (and how big is your mempool?)
1447 2013-05-28 16:16:16 <Mad7Scientist> I had to kill -9
1448 2013-05-28 16:16:40 <BlueMatt> looks like its time to actually work on that mempool limiter stuff...
1449 2013-05-28 16:16:45 <BlueMatt> or...is gavinandresen working on that yet?
1450 2013-05-28 16:16:56 <sipa> BlueMatt: not profiled yet, and it's also not just head
1451 2013-05-28 16:17:03 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: not yet, need to finish payment protocol
1452 2013-05-28 16:17:20 <sipa> BlueMatt: though i doubt other changes affect it
1453 2013-05-28 16:17:21 sacredchao has joined
1454 2013-05-28 16:18:30 <BlueMatt> sipa: I choose to blame mempool and pretend it just /cant/ be anything else
1455 2013-05-28 16:18:45 <michagogo> lol
1456 2013-05-28 16:18:58 <sipa> only 1690 poolsz
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1458 2013-05-28 16:19:19 <BlueMatt> ugg, well...needs profiling then
1459 2013-05-28 16:19:29 <sipa> indeed
1460 2013-05-28 16:20:05 <BlueMatt> 700m on 0.8.2...1.2G on 0.8.1 seems reasonable :(
1461 2013-05-28 16:21:15 <Mad7Scientist> 200 is typical
1462 2013-05-28 16:21:21 <michagogo> bitcoin-qt is drawing 159,204K "Memory (Private Working Set)" and 168,164K "Commit Size"
1463 2013-05-28 16:23:35 <sipa> that's... nothing
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1475 2013-05-28 16:28:25 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: well I was about to dive into mempool
1476 2013-05-28 16:28:25 default_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1477 2013-05-28 16:28:25 <jgarzik> for child-pays-for-parent
1478 2013-05-28 16:28:25 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, ^
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1480 2013-05-28 16:28:25 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: the branch I have pulls out all the relevent things for coin selection into its own class
1481 2013-05-28 16:28:29 <BlueMatt> might be useful if you want to use that
1482 2013-05-28 16:28:32 default_ has joined
1483 2013-05-28 16:28:42 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: a 3rd implementation⁈
1484 2013-05-28 16:28:45 <BlueMatt> (you can throw away the start I made on cpfp)
1485 2013-05-28 16:29:07 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: are the other 2 any good? (ie are they optimal -> if they are, probably not)
1486 2013-05-28 16:29:26 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: mine isn't very good; petertodd's sounds good, but I didn't review his code
1487 2013-05-28 16:29:33 <Luke-Jr> and IIRC sipa said he was planning to do one as well
1488 2013-05-28 16:29:34 <sipa> mine is non-functional and dicontinued :)
1489 2013-05-28 16:29:43 <Luke-Jr> ok, nm sipa's then :P
1490 2013-05-28 16:29:53 <sipa> bluematt understands the problem better than i do
1491 2013-05-28 16:30:09 CaptainBlaze has left ()
1492 2013-05-28 16:30:11 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: up through "Let TransactionsForBlock handle everything" on my fees branch
1493 2013-05-28 16:30:18 <gmaxwell_> "rpc call out to mechnical turk"
1494 2013-05-28 16:30:20 <Luke-Jr> petertodd's, as I understand it, was doing everything up front, so CreateNewBlock had not much to do
1495 2013-05-28 16:30:31 <Luke-Jr> eg, recalculating priorities only when they changed
1496 2013-05-28 16:30:47 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: (the rest is mempool rewrite to determine fees from watching mempool)
1497 2013-05-28 16:30:48 <jgarzik> ok
1498 2013-05-28 16:30:58 <jgarzik> nod
1499 2013-05-28 16:31:30 <BlueMatt> oh, and Ill tip you if you rebase it for me :p
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1507 2013-05-28 16:31:45 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell_: stacksort?
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1509 2013-05-28 16:32:00 <sipa> jgarzik: i thought you were going to work on statistics?
1510 2013-05-28 16:32:28 <sipa> jgarzik: i have a brnach that adds a framework to compute actual memiry usage for stl data structures
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1513 2013-05-28 16:32:41 <jgarzik> sipa, yes but that moves slowly -- acquiring servers, setting up an entity that can legally accept donations, etc.
1514 2013-05-28 16:32:52 <jgarzik> sipa, REAL WORK (i.e. programming) can be done in the meantime ;p
1515 2013-05-28 16:33:09 <BlueMatt> programming data collection and thinking about how to do that?
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1519 2013-05-28 16:33:20 <sipa> jgarzik: i'm pretty sure that acquiring statistics is a lot of real work
1520 2013-05-28 16:33:27 <helo> with child-pays-for-parent, is that something that would work in a scenario where someone's tx hasn't confirmed for two weeks, and an owner of (the privkey to) one of its outputs wants to hurry things up?
1521 2013-05-28 16:33:36 <Luke-Jr> helo: yes
1522 2013-05-28 16:33:47 <jgarzik> generating data is easy.  collating data and visualizing is different, and will depend on what people want to see.
1523 2013-05-28 16:34:05 <BlueMatt> actually, how do you plan on generating data/
1524 2013-05-28 16:34:09 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1525 2013-05-28 16:34:12 <sipa> jgarzik: anyway, i was planning on trying to map our memory usage through that, see if all observed usage is accounted for
1526 2013-05-28 16:34:13 <BlueMatt> aside from the easy things like node counts and such
1527 2013-05-28 16:34:18 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: anyhow, don't let me dissuade you if there's something wrong with petertodd's CPFP :P
1528 2013-05-28 16:34:37 * BlueMatt doesnt see petertodd's cpfp branch
1529 2013-05-28 16:34:48 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: it's part of his replace-by-fee thing
1530 2013-05-28 16:34:50 <jgarzik> re cp4p, I'm curious how that would work for long trees
1531 2013-05-28 16:35:05 <jgarzik> not just child-parent, but full grouping of an entire tree, under a single fee rate?
1532 2013-05-28 16:35:12 <sipa> jgarzik: bluematt has done some nice complexity analysis of the problem
1533 2013-05-28 16:35:15 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: my ugly implementation does a lot of caching to avoid it being bad
1534 2013-05-28 16:35:19 <jgarzik> i.e. what to do for child-child-parent
1535 2013-05-28 16:35:30 <jgarzik> parent->{child,child}->{children} etc.
1536 2013-05-28 16:35:40 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: essentially, you cant do it optimally or you end up with n^3 in the case of huge dep trees
1537 2013-05-28 16:35:48 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: basically I'm just adding the size of parents in to the child's calculations, and adding them atomically with the child if the child is selected first
1538 2013-05-28 16:35:57 <BlueMatt> (n^3 in the sense that the current stuff without cpfp is n^2)
1539 2013-05-28 16:35:58 brson has joined
1540 2013-05-28 16:36:04 <jgarzik> it is trivial to group TXs together
1541 2013-05-28 16:36:08 <jgarzik> should they be charged together?
1542 2013-05-28 16:36:14 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: it really depends
1543 2013-05-28 16:36:24 <sipa> Luke-Jr: but what if you can't get confirmed together?
1544 2013-05-28 16:36:33 <sipa> *they
1545 2013-05-28 16:36:43 <Luke-Jr> sipa: then the child isn't considered anymore
1546 2013-05-28 16:36:53 <Luke-Jr> the parent still exists as a candidate on its own standing
1547 2013-05-28 16:37:09 <sipa> but did the parent get the child's fee benefit?
1548 2013-05-28 16:37:14 <Luke-Jr> nope
1549 2013-05-28 16:37:22 <sipa> ah, but you have to restart
1550 2013-05-28 16:37:26 <Luke-Jr> ?
1551 2013-05-28 16:37:40 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: I see no cpfp in petertodd's one replace-by-fee commit
1552 2013-05-28 16:37:42 <sipa> you have tried adding parent+child, that faed
1553 2013-05-28 16:37:57 <sipa> so now you put the larent back in the queue
1554 2013-05-28 16:38:06 <sipa> bah typing on mobile
1555 2013-05-28 16:38:08 <Luke-Jr> the sorting/adding code just sees the parent and child as two different transactions, and the lower-level adding code treats the child as parent+child if the parent is needed
1556 2013-05-28 16:38:27 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: hmm, I think he said he'd be home this week.. maybe he can elaborate
1557 2013-05-28 16:38:40 <Luke-Jr> sipa: the parent was never removed from the queue
1558 2013-05-28 16:39:11 <sipa> but its prioroty changes now that the child can't be added with it?
1559 2013-05-28 16:39:17 gmaxwell_ is now known as gmaxwell
1560 2013-05-28 16:39:23 <Luke-Jr> sipa: the priority of the parent is the parent alone, always
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1563 2013-05-28 16:39:35 <sipa> huh
1564 2013-05-28 16:39:51 <sipa> then how do you get child-pays-for-parent behaviour?
1565 2013-05-28 16:40:02 <Luke-Jr> sipa: the priority of the child, which is considered for inclusion independently from the parent, takes a hit from the parent not being confirmed yet
1566 2013-05-28 16:40:09 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: when the parent is added, do all the children get recomputed?
1567 2013-05-28 16:40:13 <Luke-Jr> if the child is selected, any parents it needs are then added
1568 2013-05-28 16:40:17 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: yes
1569 2013-05-28 16:40:25 <BlueMatt> so...n^3?
1570 2013-05-28 16:40:55 <sipa> ah, you work the other way around
1571 2013-05-28 16:41:00 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: not sure, you may have hit a performance concern with that
1572 2013-05-28 16:41:05 <jgarzik> It's really not that complicated
1573 2013-05-28 16:41:14 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I'm sure it can be done better
1574 2013-05-28 16:41:15 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: you're dreaming
1575 2013-05-28 16:41:21 <jgarzik> just sort into groups, then sort the groups
1576 2013-05-28 16:41:29 <BlueMatt> nope, not nearly that easy
1577 2013-05-28 16:41:33 <sipa> jgarzik: then you haven't thought about it enough
1578 2013-05-28 16:41:33 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: that's more or less what I just said? :P
1579 2013-05-28 16:42:09 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: my algorithm does essentially that, but there are some really fun cases that you have to handle efficiently...
1580 2013-05-28 16:42:32 <Luke-Jr> anyhow, the big performance hit right now I think is that it needs the temporary CCoinsView that sipa removed in 0.8.2
1581 2013-05-28 16:42:37 roconnor has joined
1582 2013-05-28 16:43:08 <sipa> Luke-Jr: also, atomic adding of groups of transactions that lotentially fail is a huge burden (while you should be able to just kbow that, the only thing tbat can fail is size or sigops limits)
1583 2013-05-28 16:43:13 <Luke-Jr> the best performance optimization of course would be just recalculating priority order etc when it changes (accept to mempool etc) instead of every CreateNewBlock
1584 2013-05-28 16:43:37 <BlueMatt> ummm...no?
1585 2013-05-28 16:43:49 <BlueMatt> CreateNewBlock is called less than mempool adds, no?
1586 2013-05-28 16:43:54 <Luke-Jr> of course, that complicates the implementation
1587 2013-05-28 16:43:59 <BlueMatt> (and cs_main vs not)
1588 2013-05-28 16:44:18 <jgarzik> definitely quite separate, locking/thread/performance/execution count -wise
1589 2013-05-28 16:44:19 <sipa> depends how incrememtal the recomputation can be
1590 2013-05-28 16:44:19 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: CNB has to calculate for every mempool tx every time right now
1591 2013-05-28 16:44:36 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
1592 2013-05-28 16:44:54 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: ummm...that sounds broken
1593 2013-05-28 16:44:58 <jgarzik> CNB is tough no matter how you look at it, from a performance perspective.  It locks the entire mempool, for the entirety of the runtime.
1594 2013-05-28 16:45:00 <Luke-Jr> mempool adds only need to add themselves to a multimap or whatever
1595 2013-05-28 16:45:16 <jgarzik> Ideally you could pull a copy, then do work
1596 2013-05-28 16:45:17 <sipa> jgarzik: cs main locking is an orthogonal issue
1597 2013-05-28 16:45:54 <sipa> jgarzik: yes sure that would be a nice improvement, but right now cnb is slow just jn sequential execution time
1598 2013-05-28 16:46:02 <sipa> addkng cpfp only makes that worse
1599 2013-05-28 16:46:12 * BlueMatt -> out (I have to say memory-limited mempool may be higher priority than cpfp too...)
1600 2013-05-28 16:46:21 <sipa> yes
1601 2013-05-28 16:46:28 <jgarzik> yah, lunchtime here too  *poof*
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1603 2013-05-28 16:46:43 <sipa> breakfast sounds like a nice idea
1604 2013-05-28 16:47:01 <BlueMatt> dinner would be good
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1618 2013-05-28 16:59:40 <TuxBlackEdo> I has a question
1619 2013-05-28 16:59:47 MiningBuddy- has quit (Quit: ( Quit ))
1620 2013-05-28 16:59:54 <TuxBlackEdo> http://krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Liberty-Reserve-et-al.-Indictment.pdf
1621 2013-05-28 17:00:16 <TuxBlackEdo> this may be a dark question
1622 2013-05-28 17:00:18 <TuxBlackEdo> but seriously
1623 2013-05-28 17:00:35 <TuxBlackEdo> What makes bitcoin devs think that the us government won't go after them?
1624 2013-05-28 17:01:50 <eps> i think at this point they are too public
1625 2013-05-28 17:02:08 <TuxBlackEdo> this line on the document
1626 2013-05-28 17:02:26 <eps> this is why the foundation was created i think
1627 2013-05-28 17:02:27 <TuxBlackEdo> well
1628 2013-05-28 17:02:31 pejean1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1629 2013-05-28 17:02:42 <eps> so the devs have a public presence
1630 2013-05-28 17:02:56 <eps> they can't just dissapear without people noticing
1631 2013-05-28 17:03:02 robocoin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1632 2013-05-28 17:03:16 <TuxBlackEdo> the government could say "you could just open a piece of software and have a bank account with the bitcoin network without any identifying information"
1633 2013-05-28 17:03:45 <jgm> TuxBlackEdo: "bank account" means something, though, and it doesn't match what happens with bitcoin
1634 2013-05-28 17:04:26 <TuxBlackEdo> yeah
1635 2013-05-28 17:04:31 <TuxBlackEdo> same with libery reserve
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1637 2013-05-28 17:04:59 <TuxBlackEdo> they could call "opening the bitcoin client" akin to "starting a bank account"
1638 2013-05-28 17:05:06 <TuxBlackEdo> read the indictment
1639 2013-05-28 17:05:18 ivan\ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1640 2013-05-28 17:05:38 <TuxBlackEdo> It's not like they went after the exchanges of liberty reserve
1641 2013-05-28 17:05:52 <TuxBlackEdo> they went after the developers
1642 2013-05-28 17:05:55 <eps> TuxBlackEdo: it's not the same thing though, LR was effectively a bank
1643 2013-05-28 17:05:56 <TuxBlackEdo> and founders
1644 2013-05-28 17:06:06 <eps> and centralized
1645 2013-05-28 17:06:13 <jgm> Can't say I'm particularly interested in reading the indictment, was just responding to your comment above.  If the US government want to redefine bank account to mean anything that can be used to hold some nominal value then they're going to have to outlaw more things than just Bitcoin.
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1649 2013-05-28 17:06:19 <jgm> Pockets, for one.
1650 2013-05-28 17:06:21 <eps> locking up the devs wouldn't actually achieve anything either
1651 2013-05-28 17:06:24 <TuxBlackEdo> well, they went after the maintainers of the system
1652 2013-05-28 17:06:25 <eps> bitcoin will still exist
1653 2013-05-28 17:06:35 <TuxBlackEdo> sure
1654 2013-05-28 17:06:43 <TuxBlackEdo> that's why satoshi deicded to remain anonymous
1655 2013-05-28 17:06:57 seeingidog__ has joined
1656 2013-05-28 17:06:59 <TuxBlackEdo> which is probably what every bitcoin dev should have done
1657 2013-05-28 17:07:16 <eps> TuxBlackEdo: yeah the maintainers of a centeralized system, a company which they believed to be knowingly and directly benefitting from crimnal activity
1658 2013-05-28 17:08:54 <buZz> did you see that satoshi got demasked?
1659 2013-05-28 17:09:05 <eps> buZz: by ted nelson?
1660 2013-05-28 17:09:11 <buZz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emDJTGTrEm0
1661 2013-05-28 17:09:13 <buZz> yes
1662 2013-05-28 17:09:16 <buZz> THE ted nelson
1663 2013-05-28 17:09:17 <buZz> :P
1664 2013-05-28 17:09:22 <Vinnie_win> That video again...
1665 2013-05-28 17:09:23 <eps> hardly definitive ;)
1666 2013-05-28 17:09:27 <buZz> of course
1667 2013-05-28 17:09:32 <buZz> he looks dementing
1668 2013-05-28 17:09:37 <buZz> still makes valid arguments
1669 2013-05-28 17:10:23 <eps> sure, it could be that guy
1670 2013-05-28 17:10:24 donpdonp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1671 2013-05-28 17:10:31 <eps> he hasn't proved anything though
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1677 2013-05-28 17:15:01 <jouke> stupid question, but how do I "send" a payment request to the client?
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1680 2013-05-28 17:22:34 <sipa> jouke: i don't think that's implemented
1681 2013-05-28 17:22:41 <sipa> you need a payment protocol server
1682 2013-05-28 17:23:04 <sipa> well, gavin has a working test setup, but it's not part of the client itself afaik
1683 2013-05-28 17:25:41 saivann has quit ()
1684 2013-05-28 17:28:34 <jouke> Hmmm
1685 2013-05-28 17:29:50 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
1686 2013-05-28 17:32:18 <mhanne> FYI, http://webbtc.com/relay_tx now displays details about validation errors. if you ever have a tx and don't know what's wrong with it, throw it in there and it'll tell you :)
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1688 2013-05-28 17:33:44 <michagogo> Ha, looks like brainwallet.org generates random strings now
1689 2013-05-28 17:33:51 <michagogo> Rather than using chbs as the default
1690 2013-05-28 17:33:58 <sipa> chbs?
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1694 2013-05-28 17:36:22 <wumpus> correct horse battery staple I suppose :p
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1705 2013-05-28 17:49:47 <midnightmagic> TuxBlackEdo: Oh good grief, did you see pp. 22? They (allegedly) even chatted amongst themselves about being an illegal, money-laundering operation that hackers use.
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1709 2013-05-28 17:52:49 <midnightmagic> TuxBlackEdo: Unless their english is really bad, which I suppose is a possibility.
1710 2013-05-28 17:53:50 <midnightmagic> lol! They set up a portal for government to monitor the transactions for illicit activity but the data was mostly fake!
1711 2013-05-28 17:54:06 <sipa> who is 'they' ?
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1713 2013-05-28 17:54:14 <midnightmagic> sipa: Liberty Reserve owners.
1714 2013-05-28 17:54:36 <midnightmagic> I'm confident that unless the bitcoin devs have a whole lot of stuff they're hiding, the gov't can't go after them the same way they're going after LR.
1715 2013-05-28 17:54:56 <sipa> let me get this straight: the gov asked them for a way to monitor LR transactions, and LR fed them fake data?
1716 2013-05-28 17:55:13 <midnightmagic> sipa: Allegedly, according to the indictment that TuxBlackEdo linked to above.
1717 2013-05-28 17:55:36 <sipa> if that is true, they are idiots...
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1720 2013-05-28 17:56:42 <midnightmagic> yeah, brutal. Internal communications between defendants, allegedly shows that the anti-money-laundering portal data was mostly "fake" and could be manipulated to hide data that LR did not want regulators to see.
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1722 2013-05-28 17:57:17 <jaakkos> ahh gotta love how LR ~= Bitcoin in media
1723 2013-05-28 17:57:36 <midnightmagic> jaakkos: What media?
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1725 2013-05-28 17:57:38 <jaakkos> CIA is like "we can't shut bitcoin down" ages ago, then some centralized money laundering site gets shut down and media is like "This is what happens when a digital currency, like Bitcoin, gets shut down"
1726 2013-05-28 17:57:44 <jaakkos> http://www.itechpost.com/articles/9817/20130527/what-happens-when-digital-currency-bitcoin-gets-shut-down.htm
1727 2013-05-28 17:57:44 Diapolis has joined
1728 2013-05-28 17:57:48 <jaakkos> http://www.cnbc.com/id/100769961
1729 2013-05-28 17:57:56 <sipa> did the CIA ever say anything about btc?
1730 2013-05-28 17:58:10 <jaakkos> i think they did
1731 2013-05-28 17:58:34 <midnightmagic> jaakkos: Excellent examples. I'm not surprised.
1732 2013-05-28 17:58:54 <jaakkos> or, fbi...
1733 2013-05-28 17:59:48 <midnightmagic> jaakkos might be talking about the FBI internal doc that was cleaned up and reposted thanks to a bitcoin bounty, that quoted #bitcoin-otc specifically.
1734 2013-05-28 18:00:02 <jaakkos> there is at least this www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2012/05/Bitcoin-FBI.pdf
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1738 2013-05-28 18:00:30 <midnightmagic> I don't think CIA ever said anything about it, unless gavinandresen heard them say something all that time ago.
1739 2013-05-28 18:00:40 <jaakkos> though i haven't read it, i actually trusted (!! damn) what someone said.
1740 2013-05-28 18:00:53 <gmaxwell> jaakkos: fool
1741 2013-05-28 18:01:28 <jaakkos> yes
1742 2013-05-28 18:02:04 <sipa> midnightmagic: afaik, gavin's reaction to the question "what did the cia think?" after his presentation there was "the CIA does not tell you what they think
1743 2013-05-28 18:02:08 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Dude have you read the indictment? It just gets better and better..  this stuff is better than a spy novel.. lol
1744 2013-05-28 18:02:26 FredEE has joined
1745 2013-05-28 18:03:25 <midnightmagic> sipa: Ah, I seem to recall something like that. I recall being suspicious about that. I guess that was before I realised you guys are probably not crazy. :)
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1749 2013-05-28 18:06:00 <midnightmagic> The statutory allegations are a little chilling though. Many of those things could be said to be true about bitcoin as well, except the direct "knowingly" parts..
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1751 2013-05-28 18:07:16 <BlueMatt> midnightmagic: welcome to the us, if the govt wants to fuck you, they will fuck you
1752 2013-05-28 18:08:24 licnep has joined
1753 2013-05-28 18:09:20 <gavinandresen> There is no "the govt" … if somebody powerful wants to fuck you, then you're fucked.  I think that is pretty much true everywhere, and has been true everyewhere forever.
1754 2013-05-28 18:09:39 wrabbit has joined
1755 2013-05-28 18:09:42 <BlueMatt> well, ok good point
1756 2013-05-28 18:09:58 <gavinandresen> Probably less true now, here, than lots of other places.
1757 2013-05-28 18:09:59 chmod755 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1758 2013-05-28 18:10:01 <midnightmagic> gavinandresen: Less so these days. If you touch a nobleman's daughter, he can't just run you through the heart with his sword these days in public and get away with it.
1759 2013-05-28 18:10:11 <BlueMatt> well, yes, its not china or n korea
1760 2013-05-28 18:10:25 Benjojo has joined
1761 2013-05-28 18:10:28 <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: We just have different (more civilized???) ways of running you through now.
1762 2013-05-28 18:10:59 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: And yet it is still possible to stand up to a multi-million dollar company, and win, including in court, and reduce said company to, essentially, rubble.
1763 2013-05-28 18:11:16 <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: I have a personal example of this as recent as 1980s.
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1765 2013-05-28 18:13:45 <jouke> gavinandresen: does your payment-request branch include a way to send paymentsrequests to? Like a call in debug to load url or something?
1766 2013-05-28 18:14:12 da2ce7_d2 has joined
1767 2013-05-28 18:14:34 <gavinandresen> jouke: two ways; pass a .bitcoinpaymentrequest-format-file on the command line, or the bitcoin: URI syntax is extended to fetch one.
1768 2013-05-28 18:14:58 <gavinandresen> jouke: I'm debugging right now using server-side paymentrequest generating code at  https://bitcoincore.org/~gavin/createpaymentrequest.php
1769 2013-05-28 18:15:42 <gavinandresen> (actually, three ways, you can drag&drop a .bitcoinpaymentrequest file onto a running Bitcoin-Qt)
1770 2013-05-28 18:15:52 <gavinandresen> (I think, haven't actually tested that yet)
1771 2013-05-28 18:16:03 <nsh> midnightmagic, personal example requested please
1772 2013-05-28 18:16:13 runeks_ is now known as runeks
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1777 2013-05-28 18:19:02 <jouke> gavinandresen: ok, thanks, I am allready using your sample php code (thanks, was really strugling to get protobuf working in php)
1778 2013-05-28 18:20:42 <midnightmagic> nsh: A northern railway company's oil pipeline was forced to shut down (else risk a forced abandonment of the railway due to combined safety risk and legal railway land grant requirements) after they attempted to steal our livelihood. Now they are merely a passenger railway tourist company that runs a dock in a tourist trap. Their easy source of millions in fuel transport was completely destroyed thanks in essence to a single
1779 2013-05-28 18:20:49 <midnightmagic> letter to a government regulatory body, after about 4 years of legal scholarship and research by a layman.
1780 2013-05-28 18:21:11 <nsh> midnightmagic, fantastic
1781 2013-05-28 18:21:23 tcatm has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1782 2013-05-28 18:21:26 <midnightmagic> The president of the company, before it was finished, had a heart attack from the stress and died.
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1786 2013-05-28 18:21:52 <midnightmagic> nsh: Poor people are used to strife and hardship. Rich people who are about to lose their money, are not.
1787 2013-05-28 18:22:11 <nsh> as far as generalizations go... :)
1788 2013-05-28 18:22:15 <midnightmagic> :)
1789 2013-05-28 18:22:25 <midnightmagic> "in my experience"
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1793 2013-05-28 18:24:43 <midnightmagic> nsh: There are legal precedents in the BC Court of Appeals with our names on them right now, which nullified our contractual obligations after we discovered that the lease they were using to stomp on our necks was illegal.
1794 2013-05-28 18:25:37 <nsh> in that regards the law is certainly a countervailing force against personally or corporately vested power
1795 2013-05-28 18:25:50 santoscork has joined
1796 2013-05-28 18:25:55 <ProfMac> There is a pipeline going through tribal land in Red Lake Nation.  Red Lake has always owned that land, it was not ceded to them in a treaty from the US, and they protect their sovreignty.  They served an eviction notice to the pipeline company a month or so ago.
1797 2013-05-28 18:25:57 <nsh> (where applied)
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1799 2013-05-28 18:26:02 <midnightmagic> nsh: It is why I still respect it. Occasionally, when it does work, it is..  fucking glorious.
1800 2013-05-28 18:26:09 <nsh> indeed.
1801 2013-05-28 18:26:14 <midnightmagic> ProfMac: Also glorious.
1802 2013-05-28 18:26:24 santoscork has joined
1803 2013-05-28 18:27:59 <ProfMac> BP, on the other hand, was able to get Louisiana law enforcement to exclude Mac McClellan of Mother Jones from taking pictures of some public areas:  "you don't need to see that."
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1806 2013-05-28 18:33:15 <michagogo> Hmm, is this a bug? Right-clicking on a transaction and clicking copy transaction ID appends "-000" to the txid
1807 2013-05-28 18:33:21 <michagogo> daaef24f5ab868c89d2d6fa0f5ebc928f6f14831ee03a446b7053f83f74b272f-000, for example
1808 2013-05-28 18:33:57 <sipa> the vout index perhaps?
1809 2013-05-28 18:35:05 <michagogo> sipa: Hmm, maybe
1810 2013-05-28 18:35:27 <michagogo> But it's annoying because I can't paste it into the console after getrawtransaction
1811 2013-05-28 18:35:57 <michagogo> And it's not part of the txid...
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1816 2013-05-28 18:39:47 <midnightmagic> TuxBlackEdo: Whoahhhh! They're asking for $6 billion in forfeiture or repayment!
1817 2013-05-28 18:39:55 Subo1978 has joined
1818 2013-05-28 18:41:41 <nsh> *Dr. Evil pinky finger*
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1827 2013-05-28 18:50:42 <michagogo> ;;tsltnb
1828 2013-05-28 18:50:43 <gribble> Error: "tsltnb" is not a valid command.
1829 2013-05-28 18:50:43 melvster has joined
1830 2013-05-28 18:50:44 <michagogo> :-(
1831 2013-05-28 18:50:59 <michagogo> How can I find out how long since there's been a testnet block?
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1835 2013-05-28 18:54:19 <nsh> ;;google gribble commands
1836 2013-05-28 18:54:19 <gribble> Gribble - Bitcoin: <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Gribble>; Using bitcoin-otc - bitcoin-otc wiki: <http://wiki.bitcoin-otc.com/wiki/Using_bitcoin-otc>; OTC Rating System - bitcoin-otc wiki: <http://wiki.bitcoin-otc.com/wiki/OTC_Rating_System>
1837 2013-05-28 18:54:54 <nsh> not with gribble afaict
1838 2013-05-28 18:55:33 <nsh> michagogo, there's: http://blockexplorer.com/testnet
1839 2013-05-28 18:55:35 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
1840 2013-05-28 18:56:21 <michagogo> nsh: seems to be 1900 blocks behind
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1846 2013-05-28 19:01:18 <petertodd> re: replace-by-fee, child-pays-for-parent: the replace-by-fee code I have publicly released delibrately left out cpfp to ensure it wasn't suitable for mining yet to delay adoption
1847 2013-05-28 19:02:00 <petertodd> basically without cpfp it is susceptable to DoS attacks, however it's actually trivial to just add a depth limit to the fee calculation, which I'm going to do in the next day or three
1848 2013-05-28 19:02:43 GordonG3kko has joined
1849 2013-05-28 19:03:10 <petertodd> my mempool rewrite with cpfp I'll put some more work into as well, but it's relatively complex and won't be ready for production as soon as a simplistic replace-by-fee implementation with limited recursive fee calc
1850 2013-05-28 19:04:22 <petertodd> as for the dos attack: basically create a deep chain of unconfirmed, then replace the whole chain with a single replace-by-fee tx, if the delta fees paid by that tx are less than the fees required to broadcast that deep chain in the first place, you've created more network traffic than you paid fees for, potentially a lot more
1851 2013-05-28 19:05:19 <petertodd> of course, in general accepting tx's to the mempool that are parts of really deep chains may not be a good thing anyway, nor does doing so reliably work; IE simplistic cpfp that solves the O(n^2) problem of calculating fees by just limiting recursion depth is probably fine
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1854 2013-05-28 19:07:35 <sipa> so you should calculate the delta fee on the entire replaced set?
1855 2013-05-28 19:07:43 <petertodd> sipa: exactly
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1859 2013-05-28 19:11:06 * jgarzik ponders
1860 2013-05-28 19:11:26 <sipa> petertodd: then again, if you're going the fully-short-term-rational behaviour road (which i'm not sure i like just yet), a miner should probably accept any transaction that causes his net fee-per-byte to up in his mempool
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1864 2013-05-28 19:13:15 <petertodd> sipa: Well a side-effect of forcing the delta fee to pay for all children is that a replacement tx will never cause the net fees of your mempool to go down, and that side effect is mandatory to ensure you always pay for network bandwidth used.
1865 2013-05-28 19:15:21 <sipa> but if you ignore a transaction because of too little (delta) fee, and another miner accepts it, you still have the bandwidth/validation costs
1866 2013-05-28 19:15:29 <sipa> but without the income
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1870 2013-05-28 19:16:13 <petertodd> sipa: You have validation costs, because the tx isn't in your cache, but not bandwidth costs, because blocks are currently sent in full.
1871 2013-05-28 19:16:29 <sipa> you received the transaction
1872 2013-05-28 19:16:36 <sipa> you just didn't put it in your mempool
1873 2013-05-28 19:16:37 <petertodd> In fact, come to think of it, the signature would be in the signature cache right?
1874 2013-05-28 19:16:39 <sipa> ok, and you didn't relay it
1875 2013-05-28 19:16:56 <sipa> "meh" i think validation costs will ultimately be UTXO set maintainance, not signature checking
1876 2013-05-28 19:16:59 <petertodd> Yup, and by not relaying the problem isn't worse.
1877 2013-05-28 19:17:16 <petertodd> Says the guy with magic signature checking code. :P
1878 2013-05-28 19:17:52 <petertodd> Mainly I want to keep bandwidth down, and ensure that people are paying for bandwidth used. Everything else you can throw relatively cheap computer hardware at.
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1880 2013-05-28 19:18:43 <michagogo> Am I wrong to predict that http://blockchain.info/tx/b9bc3cd7981eac11671de0632127a96ce082c32ce5f1fe3599e280ea6a76f160 won't confirm?
1881 2013-05-28 19:19:13 <sipa> petertodd: i'm just trying to follow your reasoning and see where it leads
1882 2013-05-28 19:19:22 <Scrat> michagogo: you're wrong
1883 2013-05-28 19:19:50 <sipa> petertodd: and it seems to me that in some cases, a selfish miner would accept a transaction into his mempool, even if it reduces total fee
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1886 2013-05-28 19:20:40 <petertodd> sipa: Total fee for the whole mempool, or what they can include in the block they are trying to mine?
1887 2013-05-28 19:20:50 <Scrat> michagogo: seen several large ones that even had 0 fee confirm. it took up to a week but they did
1888 2013-05-28 19:21:05 <michagogo> Scrat: Ones that created such huge amounts of pure dust?
1889 2013-05-28 19:21:14 GordonG3kko has joined
1890 2013-05-28 19:21:15 <Scrat> yes
1891 2013-05-28 19:21:21 <sipa> petertodd: well, reduce total fee in the mempool, but increase what they can put in a block (because it increases fee per byte)
1892 2013-05-28 19:21:25 <Scrat> let's see if I can dig one out for you
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1894 2013-05-28 19:23:36 <petertodd> sipa: Ah, yes, that's quite correct. However, relay nodes want to limit bandwidth, so the logic I've written meets the anti-flood requirements for a relay node, while being mostly optimal for a miner. Miners are welcome to change the logic further if it suits them.
1895 2013-05-28 19:24:03 <petertodd> A large miner might, for example, want to run a public node for people to submit tx's to, and have different logic.
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1897 2013-05-28 19:25:09 <sipa> petertodd: right
1898 2013-05-28 19:25:09 <petertodd> Another subtly is that you probably want to take into account the presense of the tx is other miner's signature cache to account for increase/decreases in orphan rate.
1899 2013-05-28 19:25:56 tyn has joined
1900 2013-05-28 19:26:17 <petertodd> And speaking of: Miners have an incentive to find out about new blocks created, and then until they think those blocks have propagated to >50% of the hashing power, mine much smaller blocks so that if they find the next block their block has the most chance of winning the race.
1901 2013-05-28 19:26:41 <petertodd> (or just mine empty blocks on top of the previously block, empty to ensure their block would be invalid due to tx conflicts)
1902 2013-05-28 19:26:55 <petertodd> A blockheaders via fast-UDP layer would work ideally for this.
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1921 2013-05-28 19:35:14 <jgarzik> petertodd, yes, it would...
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1925 2013-05-28 19:35:36 <jgarzik> petertodd, I worry a tiny bit about amplification and UDP
1926 2013-05-28 19:36:17 <petertodd> jgarzik: Can't you just make the protocol have an initial setup phase where the other side acknowledges that it wants UDP packets?
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1929 2013-05-28 19:37:16 <jgarzik> petertodd, yes
1930 2013-05-28 19:37:18 <nospinzy> any faucet owners here that i can speak with
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1934 2013-05-28 19:38:24 <MC1984> hey jgarzik
1935 2013-05-28 19:38:49 <MC1984> looking at holepunching?
1936 2013-05-28 19:38:53 <petertodd> jgarzik: Perfect. 512 byte UDP packets are also large enough to propagate whole blocks with a few tx's, a few dozen if txhashes are used.
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1939 2013-05-28 19:40:29 <jgarzik> petertodd, my ideal "expanded block header" would be block header + full tx id list
1940 2013-05-28 19:40:39 <jgarzik> petertodd, where byte-count budget permits
1941 2013-05-28 19:41:04 <jgarzik> (but full block is infeasible)
1942 2013-05-28 19:41:05 <petertodd> Of course, it is perverse that nodes creating blocks that are large enough that some of the hashing power can't validate them will lead to even more blockspace pressure by other miners creating nearly empty blocks - the consequences with unlimited blocksizes and the large subsidy would be really bizzare.
1943 2013-05-28 19:41:46 <petertodd> Leads to attacks too if people are building on blocks that they haven't validated, but that is rational miner behavior given the low chance of a block being created that is invalid.
1944 2013-05-28 19:42:01 <jaakkos> oh my god this has got to be a troll http://www.businessweek.com/news/2013-05-28/liberty-reserve-indicted-in-alleged-money-laundering-scheme-1
1945 2013-05-28 19:42:07 <jgarzik> petertodd, unlimited block size just means that the only people remaining on the P2P network are Goldman JPMC and HSBC ;p
1946 2013-05-28 19:42:19 <BlueMatt> jaakkos: old news, read scollback
1947 2013-05-28 19:42:23 <petertodd> jgarzik: Makes sense, how cheap is it to keep track of what tx's your peers have? Or just rely on them querying you?
1948 2013-05-28 19:42:32 <jaakkos> BlueMatt: ah ;)
1949 2013-05-28 19:42:49 <jgarzik> petertodd, correction, block header, coin base, txid list
1950 2013-05-28 19:42:50 Truncatem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1951 2013-05-28 19:42:52 <petertodd> jgarzik: ...and Google with their new Blockchain Backup solution. :P
1952 2013-05-28 19:42:58 <jgarzik> petertodd, under the theory that most have most TXs cached
1953 2013-05-28 19:43:02 <BlueMatt> petertodd: we already do...
1954 2013-05-28 19:43:10 resinate has joined
1955 2013-05-28 19:43:31 <petertodd> jgarzik: Right, yeah, we know the coinbase is new... So allow for arbitrary tx or full tx, space permitting.
1956 2013-05-28 19:43:48 <jgarzik> yep
1957 2013-05-28 19:43:56 <petertodd> BlueMatt: I know, I'm asking how cheap that is. With UDP it would be sane to support many more than 8 peers.
1958 2013-05-28 19:44:01 rdymac has joined
1959 2013-05-28 19:45:49 <BlueMatt> petertodd: you can get a few hundred connections on 1 GB memory pretty easily
1960 2013-05-28 19:46:34 <jgarzik> petertodd, once you get much beyond ~4k or so, UDP starts fragmenting.  _ideally_ you are under average MTU (as little as 1200 bytes).  512 bytes is the super-duper-safe UDP packet size chosen by some DNS implementations.
1961 2013-05-28 19:46:37 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Not bad. In the long run a "I want to give x-MB and y-KB/s to the bitcoin network" setting is ideal.
1962 2013-05-28 19:46:56 Tantadruj has quit (Quit: DoubleRecall Turns Paywalls Into Advertising Dollars - NYTimes.com http://nyti.ms/odHOgy)
1963 2013-05-28 19:47:00 <jgarzik> "fragmenting" uselessly, I meant.  Obviously it fragments before that.
1964 2013-05-28 19:47:17 <BlueMatt> petertodd: ideally everything would be that simple...ideally never works out
1965 2013-05-28 19:47:27 <dugo> giganew / easynews /eweka likely have the iron around to support unlimited blocks
1966 2013-05-28 19:47:44 <petertodd> jgarzik: True, but IPv6 UDP requires fragmentation to be handled by the originator IIRC. Or is that done kernel-level?
1967 2013-05-28 19:48:03 <petertodd> jgarzik: In any case, fragmentation is often broken by ICMP firewalling...
1968 2013-05-28 19:48:05 <jgarzik> dugo, disk space is not the issue
1969 2013-05-28 19:48:19 ne0futur is now known as ne0futur`
1970 2013-05-28 19:48:42 <dugo> jgarzik: guess how their peering servers keep track of which messages they have seen the past weeks
1971 2013-05-28 19:48:55 viperhr has quit (Read error: No route to host)
1972 2013-05-28 19:49:01 rdymac_ has joined
1973 2013-05-28 19:49:17 viperhr has joined
1974 2013-05-28 19:49:17 <BlueMatt> dugo: yes, but somehow putting all our eggs in a few central servers...
1975 2013-05-28 19:49:23 ne0futur` is now known as ne0futur
1976 2013-05-28 19:49:23 <jgarzik> dugo, I don't have to.  I ran a Usenet news service in the 1990s.
1977 2013-05-28 19:49:24 <BlueMatt> put basket in there somewhere
1978 2013-05-28 19:49:28 <jgarzik> probably while you were still in school ;p
1979 2013-05-28 19:49:45 <nsh> whatevs, i ran a usenet network from school
1980 2013-05-28 19:49:47 <dugo> jgarzik: i ran one late 90s
1981 2013-05-28 19:50:01 <dugo> we probably peered ;)
1982 2013-05-28 19:50:01 <MC1984> doesnt UDP get pushed out by TCP congestion control
1983 2013-05-28 19:50:03 <nsh> (not really, i made that up; i did print quite a few RFCs at school though)
1984 2013-05-28 19:50:07 <jgarzik> spinne.com
1985 2013-05-28 19:50:10 <jgarzik> was on the top 100
1986 2013-05-28 19:50:18 <dugo> eu.net/kpnqwest
1987 2013-05-28 19:50:33 <MC1984> which my mean nodes in homes may prop blocks slower?
1988 2013-05-28 19:50:59 rdymac has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1989 2013-05-28 19:51:53 <petertodd> MC1984: Depends on a *lot* of factors.
1990 2013-05-28 19:52:02 rdymac has joined
1991 2013-05-28 19:52:29 <MC1984> its a generally undesirable scenario though right
1992 2013-05-28 19:53:07 <petertodd> MC1984: People running vast numbers of full-nodes in their homes is definitely desirable.
1993 2013-05-28 19:53:12 <MC1984> im not going to aurgue against UDP transport though
1994 2013-05-28 19:53:42 <sipa> MC1984: somewhat slower relaying nodes vs no such nodes at all... unsure
1995 2013-05-28 19:53:44 rdymac_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1996 2013-05-28 19:53:55 <MC1984> i was going to suggest if anyone had looked at libutp, which i think has holepunching stuff in it too, but i bet thats a dumb suggestion
1997 2013-05-28 19:53:59 Jackneill has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1998 2013-05-28 19:54:17 <sipa> depends on the degree of selection of faster nodes
1999 2013-05-28 19:54:21 <petertodd> MC1984: Speaking of, gmaxwell and lukejr and I were talking about adding code to the Bitcoin client for a "pooled-solo" mode where the miner builds the blocks, thus being a true miner, and the pool just keeps track of shares.
2000 2013-05-28 19:54:46 <MC1984> i thought luke already had something like that
2001 2013-05-28 19:54:53 <petertodd> MC1984: I'll post more tonight in the forums; I want to do a funding drive to at least be able to offer "thank-you" bounties to whomever makes it work.
2002 2013-05-28 19:55:06 rdymac has quit (Write error: Broken pipe)
2003 2013-05-28 19:55:13 <petertodd> MC1984: That's the idea behind luke's GBT, but the whole solution hasn't been written yet.
2004 2013-05-28 19:55:22 <petertodd> MC1984: Luke said he's interested in writing the code.
2005 2013-05-28 19:55:37 <MC1984> that actually sounds like a significant improvement in affairs
2006 2013-05-28 19:55:56 <MC1984> or to coin a phrase, a reduction in coercibility surface
2007 2013-05-28 19:56:20 <petertodd> Absolutely. It would mean the worst a pool can do is steal funds, and in many cases, not even that. If it's widely used even a pool with >50% hashing power isn't a threat at all.
2008 2013-05-28 19:56:40 <MC1984> then what of p2pool?
2009 2013-05-28 19:56:45 <petertodd> Part of the effort needs to also be integrated tracking of share payouts to detect pool fraud.
2010 2013-05-28 19:57:14 <MC1984> and how will you get poolops to agree to this
2011 2013-05-28 19:57:16 <petertodd> MC1984: Good question. It's not to say p2pool becomes obsolete, but it does become less important.
2012 2013-05-28 19:57:22 <gmaxwell> MC1984: we basically completely luke's original vision. Luke's prior thinking was more like the pool would be transparent and you could decide to mine there or not. Instead we propose the user make all the transaction/block decisions and the pool just coordinates pooling paying.
2013 2013-05-28 19:57:26 c00w has quit (Ping timeout: 257 seconds)
2014 2013-05-28 19:57:46 <petertodd> MC1984: By getting miners to demand it - part of the effort needs to include the usual videos etc. advocacy once the code works.
2015 2013-05-28 19:58:00 <MC1984> right
2016 2013-05-28 19:58:07 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: well, one is easier to implement than the other :p
2017 2013-05-28 19:58:37 <petertodd> Obviously for me one of the reasons I really like this idea is that by turning hashers into true miners, we make it clear that raising the blocksize degrades the decentralization of Bitcoin.
2018 2013-05-28 19:59:06 <gmaxwell> meh. only if it does. :)
2019 2013-05-28 19:59:14 <MC1984> petertodd you produced that blocksie vid right? Do you actually advocat 1MB forever, or just a conservative approach to the size
2020 2013-05-28 19:59:18 <jaakkos> BlueMatt: oh, actually the businessweek one was not discussed before after all - they were the first one i found to directly confuse Bitcoin with LR, and further they talk about Bitcoin Inc. now they have modified the article a bit but Bitcoin Inc. is still there.
2021 2013-05-28 19:59:59 <petertodd> MC1984: Very conservative. My threshold is "Can I easily mine anonymously?" - 1MB is already marginal with that respect, but technology changes over time so *maybe* in the future anonymous bandwidth will be easier to obtain.
2022 2013-05-28 20:00:01 <Luke-Jr> ^ what gmaxwell said; whether it is a real problem or not, decentralziing things more is a good idea
2023 2013-05-28 20:00:29 <MC1984> yes anonymous mining is important
2024 2013-05-28 20:00:51 <MC1984> very conservative is my position too, an has been for about a year before that vid
2025 2013-05-28 20:00:56 Thepok has joined
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2027 2013-05-28 20:01:08 <petertodd> MC1984: Also, "Can I easily mine anonymously?" has to be true even if parties are trying to attack those mining anonymously, for instance by creating large blocks full of transactions unknown to the network.
2028 2013-05-28 20:01:19 <MC1984> i thought it was a good vid, i see some people accusing you of shit though :/
2029 2013-05-28 20:01:32 * Luke-Jr probably won't know his position until block size becomes relevant for real
2030 2013-05-28 20:01:51 <petertodd> MC1984: Thanks. It's a political issue, I'm not surprised I'm getting attacked.
2031 2013-05-28 20:01:51 <sipa> still no fork?
2032 2013-05-28 20:02:16 <MC1984> im not sure sure it is a political issue, if you think the whole thing trough logically
2033 2013-05-28 20:02:18 <gmaxwell> Like lots of things in Bitcoin— there are multiple complementary motivations.  Making mining more decenteralized is in everyone's interest regardless of concerns about block size.  We really need to get out of a situation where someone can blow up bitcoin by hacking two systems / people.
2034 2013-05-28 20:02:23 beethove18201 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2035 2013-05-28 20:02:26 <MC1984> moe like technical/engineering
2036 2013-05-28 20:02:37 <MC1984> but i can see its become political and that alone makes me kinda sad
2037 2013-05-28 20:03:02 qwertyoruiop has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2038 2013-05-28 20:03:16 <sipa> MC1984: the question is really about what we want bitcoin to be
2039 2013-05-28 20:03:18 <petertodd> MC1984: See, the limitations are technical/engineering, but the acceptable tradeoffs in the face of those limitations are political. It's absolutely true the blocksize could be unlimited: VISA exists after all.
2040 2013-05-28 20:03:25 <petertodd> sipa: +1
2041 2013-05-28 20:03:32 <sipa> and there are many potentially useful outcomes
2042 2013-05-28 20:03:41 <MC1984> i know what i want it to be
2043 2013-05-28 20:03:47 <michagogo> What does "Error adding key to wallet (code -4)" mean?
2044 2013-05-28 20:03:51 <michagogo> (what's code -4?)
2045 2013-05-28 20:04:05 <sipa> michagogo: most likelythe key is already in there
2046 2013-05-28 20:04:08 <MC1984> and the only "canonical" hist as to what it SHOULD be comes from what satoshi wrote in block 0
2047 2013-05-28 20:04:22 <MC1984> but i dont even need that to have made my mind up about what it should be
2048 2013-05-28 20:04:34 <petertodd> The political side of things is why at one point at the conference I was surrounded by a half-dozen very concerned investors from a country with capital controls.
2049 2013-05-28 20:04:41 marketanarchist has joined
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2051 2013-05-28 20:05:03 <MC1984> damn
2052 2013-05-28 20:05:05 <sipa> MC1984: if there were no technical limitations, we could have a sysyem where both creating transactions and verifying the system were cheap/decentralized
2053 2013-05-28 20:05:28 marketanarchist has joined
2054 2013-05-28 20:05:29 <sipa> unfortunately, technological constraints mean that favoring one side hurts the other
2055 2013-05-28 20:05:36 bd_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2056 2013-05-28 20:05:37 <BlueMatt> can we be clear: increasing block size doesnt break anything, no matter what you want bitcoin to be
2057 2013-05-28 20:05:40 <petertodd> sipa: Yup. Like if remote attesting TPM hardware was cheap and secure we wouldn't need mining at all...
2058 2013-05-28 20:05:42 rdymac has joined
2059 2013-05-28 20:05:44 <BlueMatt> letting block size grow to infinity does
2060 2013-05-28 20:05:59 <sipa> BlueMatt: all depends on what you tolerate
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2062 2013-05-28 20:06:10 <MC1984> i think that if we can keep a lid on blocksize sufficiently, and assuming tech and bandwidth increases, the equilibrium state of the system will tend towards decentralisation
2063 2013-05-28 20:06:12 <sipa> i am not convinced infinite block sizes would be a real problem even
2064 2013-05-28 20:06:16 <MC1984> thats how it seems in my head anyway
2065 2013-05-28 20:06:18 <sipa> but i don't want to risk it
2066 2013-05-28 20:06:27 <MC1984> the uncapped blocks people are loons
2067 2013-05-28 20:06:31 <petertodd> BlueMatt: No we can't. Mining 1MB blocks anonymously and profitably is already somewhat dodgy, so any increase will make that harder.
2068 2013-05-28 20:06:45 <sipa> maybe
2069 2013-05-28 20:06:45 <BlueMatt> meh, getting miners to work over tor is up to people who design protocols like p2pool's
2070 2013-05-28 20:06:58 <BlueMatt> there are technical issues (like what we saw with <0.8)
2071 2013-05-28 20:07:08 theymos has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2072 2013-05-28 20:07:14 <BlueMatt> petertodd: wrong
2073 2013-05-28 20:07:17 <BlueMatt> just, wrong
2074 2013-05-28 20:07:43 <sipa> i don't know: any increase of block sizes and utxo sizes hurts decentralization of validation
2075 2013-05-28 20:07:46 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Sigh, there is no magical way to get 1MB of data out of a Tor connection in zero time.
2076 2013-05-28 20:07:48 <gavinandresen> petertodd: you keep ignoring suggestions for how to scale up MASSIVELY with pretty simple changes.
2077 2013-05-28 20:07:49 sacrelege has joined
2078 2013-05-28 20:07:50 <BlueMatt> yes, if we go to 1GB blocks, sure things may break
2079 2013-05-28 20:07:52 zer0def has quit (Quit: Quit:)
2080 2013-05-28 20:07:57 gmaxwell has left ()
2081 2013-05-28 20:08:05 <petertodd> gavinandresen: I ignore them because they are suggestions that are broken in the face of attack.
2082 2013-05-28 20:08:06 <sipa> to what extent that is acceptable is another matter entirely
2083 2013-05-28 20:08:15 <BlueMatt> petertodd: there is no magical way to get 1MB of data out of ANY connection in zero time
2084 2013-05-28 20:08:16 <sipa> gavinandresen: such as?
2085 2013-05-28 20:08:35 nus- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2086 2013-05-28 20:08:39 <BlueMatt> petertodd: in any case, you dont have to get anywhere /near/ 1MB through instantly to mine
2087 2013-05-28 20:08:41 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Exactly. So with a BW limited Tor, you want smaller blocks to keep profit reasonable.
2088 2013-05-28 20:08:44 <BlueMatt> you already have the transactions
2089 2013-05-28 20:09:04 <gavinandresen> such as broadcasting transactions over satellite, then anonymous miners connected through tor that just broadcast block + coinbase + listof(truncated transaction ids)
2090 2013-05-28 20:09:06 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Assuming that you already have the transactions is a very big mistake.
2091 2013-05-28 20:09:15 <sipa> assuming transactions are known to the p2p networks
2092 2013-05-28 20:09:21 nus has joined
2093 2013-05-28 20:09:31 <BlueMatt> petertodd: meh, you have some subset of them
2094 2013-05-28 20:09:32 <petertodd> gavinandresen: Yes, because satellites aren't subject to government takedown and are decentralized...
2095 2013-05-28 20:09:46 <MC1984> a sattelite has a pretty high coercibility surface
2096 2013-05-28 20:09:47 <jgarzik> :)
2097 2013-05-28 20:09:51 <MC1984> satellite
2098 2013-05-28 20:09:54 <BlueMatt> petertodd: Yes, because TOR isn't subject to government takedown and are decentralized...
2099 2013-05-28 20:10:08 <gavinandresen> fine, replace satellites with "listen on a public network, broadcast over private"
2100 2013-05-28 20:10:10 <BlueMatt> petertodd: go to china and tell me how well tor works
2101 2013-05-28 20:10:10 <petertodd> The day satellites are a decentralized solution is the day I'm buying an underground bunker, for my protection!
2102 2013-05-28 20:10:20 caedes has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2103 2013-05-28 20:10:26 <marketanarchist> so i already talked about this earlier today but i thought i should try again at a better time. I have an idea for using an altcoin as a publishing media that could be used for things like decentralized markets. Basically what you do is have miners record the time that they recieved the previous block in the block that they are minting. Then you use this data to retarget max block size similarly to how bitcoin retargets PO
2104 2013-05-28 20:10:57 <petertodd> gavinandresen: Those investors I were talking too actually brought that listen public solution up, and said they were scared as hell that people would believe it's an acceptable solution. You can't be seen running Bitcoin at all to be safe.
2105 2013-05-28 20:11:25 <BlueMatt> petertodd: TOR doesnt work for that, either, btw
2106 2013-05-28 20:11:25 <marketanarchist> discard blocks after like a month so that the blockchain never becomes overly cumbersome
2107 2013-05-28 20:11:31 <sipa> petertodd: stop putting things in such a fatalistic way
2108 2013-05-28 20:11:42 <marketanarchist> and give it a block reward that never deminishes
2109 2013-05-28 20:11:55 rdymac has joined
2110 2013-05-28 20:12:04 <MC1984> i thought the general gist of the conf was that eeryone was tamping for regulation and stuff?
2111 2013-05-28 20:12:08 <BlueMatt> petertodd: today, and for the conceivable future, there is no way to get on the internet anonymously for any long-term period
2112 2013-05-28 20:12:11 <MC1984> the winkelvosses etc
2113 2013-05-28 20:12:19 bd_ has joined
2114 2013-05-28 20:12:22 <marketanarchist> information published on this blockchain would be censorship resistant for the same reasons bitcoin is censorship resistant
2115 2013-05-28 20:12:33 <marketanarchist> and there would be a legit market for getting infomration included in the blockchain
2116 2013-05-28 20:12:35 <BlueMatt> marketanarchist: yes, and it easily is
2117 2013-05-28 20:12:40 <gavinandresen> yes, if you want to solve the "decentralized, completely anonymous" problem then please start at the network level and deploy a nice p2p mesh network.
2118 2013-05-28 20:12:42 <BlueMatt> marketanarchist: ehhh...no
2119 2013-05-28 20:12:45 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Tor is an example, and it does work in China with some care.
2120 2013-05-28 20:12:49 <jgarzik> MC1984, "everybody" being businesses who went to a business-focused payments conference ;p
2121 2013-05-28 20:12:54 <jgarzik> selection bias
2122 2013-05-28 20:12:54 <marketanarchist> no not anonymous
2123 2013-05-28 20:12:59 <marketanarchist> not interested in that
2124 2013-05-28 20:13:02 <marketanarchist> just censorsip resistance
2125 2013-05-28 20:13:04 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Stenography for example is another way, and again, it's much easier to use will smaller blocksizes.
2126 2013-05-28 20:13:04 <gavinandresen> … and get back to me in a hundred years when you've managed to boil that ocean....
2127 2013-05-28 20:13:38 <BlueMatt> petertodd: anyway, you are putting this in such a fanatical frame that no one can agree with you, even those who share some of the principal that mining over tor should continue to be possible
2128 2013-05-28 20:13:44 <MC1984> oh was it mainly a payments business conf? i havnt watched the talks yet
2129 2013-05-28 20:13:46 <helo> marketanarchist: there's another conversation going on that i think is crossing wires with you a bit
2130 2013-05-28 20:13:47 <MC1984> in fact i cant find them
2131 2013-05-28 20:14:01 <gavinandresen> My big issue with the "PRIVACY AT ALL COSTS!!!!!" arguments is that it looks like most people aren't willing to pay for privacy. And who am I to say that they're idiots ?
2132 2013-05-28 20:14:13 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Meh, I have $6k of donations from people who agree with me, and as jdillon pointed out it's from wallets with a lot of Bitcoins.
2133 2013-05-28 20:14:27 <sipa> to me it's obvious: it is a compromise in any case, and increasing blocks and utxo size hurts decentralized validation in any case. that doesn't mean it's necessarily a problem, we just need to know what level is acceptable
2134 2013-05-28 20:14:49 rdymac has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2135 2013-05-28 20:14:52 <petertodd> gavinandresen: How do you know that? I honestly don't know where most of the funds I have gotten in donatiosn come from.
2136 2013-05-28 20:14:58 <BlueMatt> petertodd: yes, and some of the richest people in the us regularly donate to the tea party...we should put them in charge
2137 2013-05-28 20:15:12 <BlueMatt> sipa: yes
2138 2013-05-28 20:15:14 <BlueMatt> yes
2139 2013-05-28 20:15:17 rdymac has joined
2140 2013-05-28 20:15:24 <sipa> andwhat is acceptable will depend on the economic value of the system we're protecting, and technological imlrovemts
2141 2013-05-28 20:15:36 <sipa> *improvements
2142 2013-05-28 20:16:18 <petertodd> sipa: Indeed. I represent the people who put the highest value on decentralization, (investors looking for a decentralized asset, among other others) Gavin and Mike seem to represent the people who put the lowest. (big public companies)
2143 2013-05-28 20:16:29 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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2145 2013-05-28 20:16:46 <petertodd> sipa: I do not know what the majority of Bitcoin users want, because the group wanting decentralization is inherently difficult to measure.
2146 2013-05-28 20:17:20 <MC1984> besids making best efforts to maintain in in general, why would devs be concerned with how much economic value theyre protecting?
2147 2013-05-28 20:17:30 zer0def has joined
2148 2013-05-28 20:17:32 <petertodd> MC1984: pitchforks?
2149 2013-05-28 20:17:36 <MC1984> markets gonna do wht they do
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2152 2013-05-28 20:18:22 <petertodd> Heh, well, the devs may find themselves irrelevant if people stop installing their software. That's why my video specifically advocates taking that step.
2153 2013-05-28 20:18:49 <MC1984> well, im not sure theres call for that just yet
2154 2013-05-28 20:18:51 <BlueMatt> thats why your video is insane and over-the-top
2155 2013-05-28 20:18:54 <BlueMatt> but, no, seriously
2156 2013-05-28 20:19:02 <BlueMatt> go make anonymous-coin
2157 2013-05-28 20:19:09 <BlueMatt> with 1kb blocks or something else tiny
2158 2013-05-28 20:19:14 <petertodd> BlueMatt: go make non-anonymous-coin
2159 2013-05-28 20:19:33 <BlueMatt> I never said I was trying to, I still do think mining over tor should be possible
2160 2013-05-28 20:19:42 <BlueMatt> but I dont think that is the /ONLY/ concern there is here
2161 2013-05-28 20:19:42 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Bitcoin already is very close to anonymous coin, so don't change it. That's exactly what I'm advocating.
2162 2013-05-28 20:19:43 <MC1984> i mean i expct gavin to alteast be somewhat conservative with the blocksize when it does get increased
2163 2013-05-28 20:19:47 <MC1984> and it will
2164 2013-05-28 20:20:25 <gavinandresen> The plan is to get data on how large or small a block we can support right now (both over tor and not), and then figure out what to do.
2165 2013-05-28 20:20:26 <petertodd> MC1984: I don't. The business strategy of the companies paying his salary depends on transactions in the blockchain right now.
2166 2013-05-28 20:20:41 <gavinandresen> There's been too much talking about theoretical what-ifs, and too little actual data-gathering.
2167 2013-05-28 20:20:55 <sipa> agree on that
2168 2013-05-28 20:20:55 <MC1984> gavin is pretty independent the way things are set up afaik
2169 2013-05-28 20:20:55 <BlueMatt> this too ^
2170 2013-05-28 20:21:27 <petertodd> Data-gathering is silly right now. Bitcoin hasn't been attacked seriously at the core, so we just don't know.
2171 2013-05-28 20:21:38 <BlueMatt> thats the point
2172 2013-05-28 20:21:48 * gavinandresen is THIS close to putting petertodd on /ignore....
2173 2013-05-28 20:21:53 <BlueMatt> set up a test network, simulate it, attack it, destry it
2174 2013-05-28 20:21:54 <dugo> we can attack the hell out of testnet
2175 2013-05-28 20:22:03 <BlueMatt> but measure it
2176 2013-05-28 20:22:10 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: exactly.
2177 2013-05-28 20:22:18 <sipa> we do need to know how slow actual network propagation is in function of block sizes
2178 2013-05-28 20:22:21 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, tor is a wildcard, relays/exits can limit bandwidth as low as 20 kbps and still be used
2179 2013-05-28 20:22:27 <sipa> we need to know how fast new blocks can be constructed
2180 2013-05-28 20:22:33 <BlueMatt> sipa: I plan on simulating exactly that in real-world network
2181 2013-05-28 20:22:36 <sipa> in function of the size of memory pools
2182 2013-05-28 20:22:41 <BlueMatt> only issue is I need to figure out processing time...
2183 2013-05-28 20:22:41 <michagogo> gavinandresen: Is 0.8.2final going to have any changes from rc3?
2184 2013-05-28 20:22:44 <MC1984> everyone just chill, didnt mean to start a shitstorm :(
2185 2013-05-28 20:23:01 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, lol
2186 2013-05-28 20:23:05 <sipa> gavinandresen: i saw another assert error at shutdown yesterday... i couldn't reproduce it though
2187 2013-05-28 20:23:06 <petertodd> Look, figuring out that larger than 1MB blocks is tricky to mine on tor in the face of attack is really easy. I've done that calculation and I'm convinced.
2188 2013-05-28 20:23:06 <MC1984> gavins intention to gather actual data on the issue instead of navalgazing about it sounds reasonable
2189 2013-05-28 20:23:14 <phantomcircuit> MC1984 IS TRYING TO BREAK BITCOIN, GET HIM
2190 2013-05-28 20:23:21 <helo> be sure you attack it in all the ways that anyone will ever think of to attack it
2191 2013-05-28 20:23:40 <gavinandresen> michagogo: unless we find a showstopper bug in the next 12 hours or so, no, 0.8.2final will just be 0.8.2rc3 with the 0.8.2 tag applied (and re-gitian-built, because binaries change when there is a newer tag)
2192 2013-05-28 20:23:57 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, i actually have reasonable data on propogation times for transactions, it takes about 60 seconds for all of the connectable nodes to broadcast a transaction in the extreme
2193 2013-05-28 20:23:57 <petertodd> gavinandresen: re: ignore, go right head
2194 2013-05-28 20:23:59 <petertodd> *ahead
2195 2013-05-28 20:24:11 paracyst has joined
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2197 2013-05-28 20:24:18 <gavinandresen> helo: … and let the perfect be the enemy of the good…. umm, no.
2198 2013-05-28 20:24:20 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: very edge isnt all that important
2199 2013-05-28 20:24:22 <sipa> phantomcircuit: and how does block size affect that
2200 2013-05-28 20:24:22 paracyst has joined
2201 2013-05-28 20:24:23 <MC1984> phantomcircuit obviously im a planted agent of discontent :/
2202 2013-05-28 20:24:24 <michagogo> gavinandresen: Ah, okay
2203 2013-05-28 20:24:28 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: Right, so 5% orphan rate to 51%, roughly speaking.
2204 2013-05-28 20:24:30 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: even someone mining over tor can get better connected than that
2205 2013-05-28 20:24:50 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: 60s seems wrong, likely it's not linear.
2206 2013-05-28 20:24:50 <phantomcircuit> sipa, it's hard to say exactly but i dont think it would have a significant impact
2207 2013-05-28 20:24:54 <michagogo> gavinandresen: Okay, so hopefully tomorrow I'll build for you guys
2208 2013-05-28 20:24:55 Thepok has joined
2209 2013-05-28 20:25:03 gavinandresen has quit (Quit: gavinandresen)
2210 2013-05-28 20:25:06 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: and I have a feeling its a veeeeerrry long tail on that
2211 2013-05-28 20:25:07 bd_ has joined
2212 2013-05-28 20:25:11 <sipa> yes
2213 2013-05-28 20:25:15 <sipa> 100% also dones't matter
2214 2013-05-28 20:25:19 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, yeah it is the vast majority were < 5 seconds
2215 2013-05-28 20:25:23 <sipa> 60% may
2216 2013-05-28 20:25:26 <BlueMatt> yea, thats what I care about
2217 2013-05-28 20:25:28 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: That sounds more right.
2218 2013-05-28 20:25:46 <phantomcircuit> i could start that script again but it generates about 10 GB of compressed logs/day
2219 2013-05-28 20:26:00 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: What exactly does the script do?
2220 2013-05-28 20:26:19 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, records every message it can find from every peer it can connect to
2221 2013-05-28 20:26:32 <sipa> if you do it from a single bitcoind, you risk a selection bias
2222 2013-05-28 20:26:42 <phantomcircuit> sipa, hmm?
2223 2013-05-28 20:26:49 <sipa> as you relay peer Ip addresses, your peers have an increased chance of being connected to eachother
2224 2013-05-28 20:26:51 <phantomcircuit> most of the data was just a peer id, timestamp, messae id
2225 2013-05-28 20:26:53 <sipa> more so than random nodes
2226 2013-05-28 20:26:59 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: oh, re: getting nodes for your stuff: I can host one on the uni network
2227 2013-05-28 20:27:06 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: Right. Can you get an idea of what tx's are in what pools mempools? It'd be interesting to see what the increased orphan rate is for blocks with non-relayed tx's - I've got two pools who want to do replace-by-fee that would like to know.
2228 2013-05-28 20:27:09 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: it'l be officially under my research, so its ok
2229 2013-05-28 20:27:33 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, doing even basic analysis of the data (like propogation times) took several hours
2230 2013-05-28 20:27:33 bd_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2231 2013-05-28 20:27:42 <BlueMatt> (and even if it weren't...doesnt matter)
2232 2013-05-28 20:28:07 <phantomcircuit> remember this was literally generating 10 GB/day 80% of which was approximately 80 byte records
2233 2013-05-28 20:28:23 <BlueMatt> you need...oracle db for that one!
2234 2013-05-28 20:28:28 Tritonio has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2235 2013-05-28 20:28:35 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, more like a super computing cluster...
2236 2013-05-28 20:28:45 Tritonio has joined
2237 2013-05-28 20:28:45 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: Figures, oh well, maybe a more targetted experiment would be in order. I'll throw up some nodes with NTP and just look at the logs.
2238 2013-05-28 20:28:46 <BlueMatt> (who was that guy who came around and very strongly insisted that everything would be better if only we used commercial db stuff?)
2239 2013-05-28 20:28:48 <phantomcircuit> ~135 million messages/day with only 4k nodes
2240 2013-05-28 20:29:02 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2241 2013-05-28 20:29:17 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, you need to do the analysis in real time
2242 2013-05-28 20:29:29 <phantomcircuit> otherwise the volume of individual messages is just crushing
2243 2013-05-28 20:29:36 grau has joined
2244 2013-05-28 20:29:38 <MC1984> nobodu found out about my GBT crash bug?
2245 2013-05-28 20:29:39 Neozonz has joined
2246 2013-05-28 20:29:46 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: good deal
2247 2013-05-28 20:30:02 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: will 1 GBps be enough?
2248 2013-05-28 20:30:11 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: Oh, I just mean to run, say, 6 nodes, and see if blocks mined by those pools with replaced tx's vs. ones without propgate differently. Not great data obviously.
2249 2013-05-28 20:30:16 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: heh, most definitely
2250 2013-05-28 20:30:30 <phantomcircuit> hmm?
2251 2013-05-28 20:30:32 serp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2252 2013-05-28 20:30:33 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: you're supposed to say no...
2253 2013-05-28 20:30:39 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: hehehe
2254 2013-05-28 20:31:03 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: well I could use it to crawl every node, once per minute.  Because, you know, stress test mumble mumble.
2255 2013-05-28 20:31:15 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: See, if you replace-by-fee a tx, that means it's not in the signature cache of the majority of the network, so your block will relay slower and your orphan rate goes up. So the question is, how much do you charge for that service?
2256 2013-05-28 20:31:27 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: you could do every node every minute easily in 1 Gbps though
2257 2013-05-28 20:31:51 <BlueMatt> at least by my guesstimating
2258 2013-05-28 20:31:53 <jgarzik> first I need a good idea of incoming-TCP-port-reachable nodes on the total network
2259 2013-05-28 20:31:59 <phantomcircuit> oh
2260 2013-05-28 20:32:02 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, shrug
2261 2013-05-28 20:32:03 <jgarzik> time for a crawl
2262 2013-05-28 20:32:09 denisx has joined
2263 2013-05-28 20:32:14 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: think 5-7k
2264 2013-05-28 20:32:26 serp has joined
2265 2013-05-28 20:32:26 <BlueMatt> ehh, probably 6-8k
2266 2013-05-28 20:32:32 Neozonz has quit (Disc!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2267 2013-05-28 20:32:40 <jgarzik> My guesstimates were 5-10k
2268 2013-05-28 20:32:51 <jgarzik> in any case, not many
2269 2013-05-28 20:32:57 jspilman has joined
2270 2013-05-28 20:34:05 Subo1978 has quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
2271 2013-05-28 20:34:20 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: Im pretty sure both 5-7k and 6-8k are within your 5-10k range
2272 2013-05-28 20:34:56 <sipa> my crawler reports 4.5k "good" nodes, though the criteria are quite arbitrary
2273 2013-05-28 20:35:18 Subo1978 has joined
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2275 2013-05-28 20:37:56 bd_ has joined
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2278 2013-05-28 20:38:33 serp has joined
2279 2013-05-28 20:38:53 <helo> if IBD time does not grow like O(log(height)) with commodity hardware, won't we continually lose full nodes over time?
2280 2013-05-28 20:39:05 michagogo has quit (Quit: Goodnight)
2281 2013-05-28 20:39:16 <Subo1978> is there not Client on IRC on lfnet?
2282 2013-05-28 20:39:18 <sipa> nodes only do an IBD once
2283 2013-05-28 20:39:32 <sipa> (... ideally)
2284 2013-05-28 20:39:37 <BlueMatt> oh, btw, jgarzik now that you have free time, do you finally want to set up that seednode on the btcf dedicated server?
2285 2013-05-28 20:39:50 <sipa> i have a seed running there
2286 2013-05-28 20:40:07 <BlueMatt> sipa: meant seednode, not dnsseed
2287 2013-05-28 20:40:11 <BlueMatt> also, testnet seednode
2288 2013-05-28 20:40:11 <sipa> all that is needed is a dns entry pointing to it
2289 2013-05-28 20:40:12 <sipa> ow
2290 2013-05-28 20:40:15 <sipa> ok
2291 2013-05-28 20:40:25 <BlueMatt> oh, yes, probably wanna add that dns entry at some point, no?
2292 2013-05-28 20:40:53 * BlueMatt votes against sipa running 2 dnsseeds, but maybe jgarzik can take this one, or...something
2293 2013-05-28 20:41:06 peetaur2 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2294 2013-05-28 20:41:14 <sipa> i have no problem someone running one, less work for me :)
2295 2013-05-28 20:41:22 <sipa> +else
2296 2013-05-28 20:41:32 <MC1984> helo if doing an IBD tends to increase even accounting for tech advancement then surely nodes tends to decrease simply as a function of entropy or something
2297 2013-05-28 20:41:41 funky has joined
2298 2013-05-28 20:41:55 <BlueMatt> MC1984: by that point we'll be doing ibd through verifyable computation
2299 2013-05-28 20:41:57 <MC1984> another good argument for smallishblox
2300 2013-05-28 20:42:01 <BlueMatt> and then its O(something else)
2301 2013-05-28 20:42:06 <MC1984> wat?
2302 2013-05-28 20:42:16 <BlueMatt> yes
2303 2013-05-28 20:42:37 <MC1984> the hell is verifiable computation
2304 2013-05-28 20:42:45 <sipa> it's cs magic squared
2305 2013-05-28 20:42:47 <phantomcircuit> helo, the current limitation is cpu time, assuming moores law holds and/or the prevalence of multicore systems increases (i would say the latter is more likely) then i dont expect it to be an issue
2306 2013-05-28 20:42:54 <BlueMatt> https://www.google.com/search?q=verifyable+execution
2307 2013-05-28 20:43:04 <funky> (7:37:02 PM) TuxBlackEdo: What makes bitcoin devs think that the us government won't go after them? it wont help
2308 2013-05-28 20:43:10 <MC1984> maybe if verifying simply scales well with cores
2309 2013-05-28 20:43:14 <MC1984> well be ok lol
2310 2013-05-28 20:43:17 <funky> since satoshi system is peer to peer
2311 2013-05-28 20:43:33 <BlueMatt> MC1984: well, it isnt lmgtfy...at least its actually google
2312 2013-05-28 20:43:42 <BlueMatt> funky: because we know the eff will step up to defend us
2313 2013-05-28 20:43:44 <BlueMatt> ...right?
2314 2013-05-28 20:43:49 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, at the moment it does and i expect it will continue to
2315 2013-05-28 20:43:49 <funky> eff?
2316 2013-05-28 20:43:50 serp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2317 2013-05-28 20:43:57 Chuky has joined
2318 2013-05-28 20:43:59 <BlueMatt> anyway, I dont have commit access, I'm not a dev :)
2319 2013-05-28 20:44:06 <MC1984> has anyone ever tried doing an IBD into a ramdisk with a top of the line cpu and the sipspeed stuff
2320 2013-05-28 20:44:12 <MC1984> -nocheckpoints
2321 2013-05-28 20:44:15 <MC1984> mite b cool
2322 2013-05-28 20:44:23 <funky> BlueMatt u can hide in my apt
2323 2013-05-28 20:44:23 <funky> :)
2324 2013-05-28 20:44:24 <BlueMatt> MC1984: in bitcoinj I have
2325 2013-05-28 20:44:29 <sipa> ramdisk won't help if you have huge dbcache
2326 2013-05-28 20:44:31 <BlueMatt> MC1984: and it takes almost no time at all
2327 2013-05-28 20:44:34 <BlueMatt> in /bitcoinj/!
2328 2013-05-28 20:44:37 <BlueMatt> JAVA
2329 2013-05-28 20:44:42 serp has joined
2330 2013-05-28 20:44:45 <sipa> it simply doesn't touch disk as long as it fits in the dbcache
2331 2013-05-28 20:44:48 <MC1984> well huge dbcache then
2332 2013-05-28 20:45:01 <Subo1978> MC1984:  whats Hughe?
2333 2013-05-28 20:45:05 Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2334 2013-05-28 20:45:07 <sipa> a few gb
2335 2013-05-28 20:45:10 <MC1984> my shitty keyboard
2336 2013-05-28 20:45:15 KillYourTV has joined
2337 2013-05-28 20:45:17 <funky> folks I was reading many exchanges claim they keep client funds in cold storage, yet if exchange is automated means front end got some access to it right?
2338 2013-05-28 20:45:36 <phantomcircuit> funky, not if they're doing it right
2339 2013-05-28 20:45:51 <helo> if block size is allowed to be whatever a majority of full nodes can keep up with, it seems like IBD time may be growing too quickly versus hardware improvements
2340 2013-05-28 20:45:53 <MC1984> some guy on reddit claimed that his new SSD was very very much > his old 5400rpm drive
2341 2013-05-28 20:46:00 <MC1984> for IBD
2342 2013-05-28 20:46:14 <funky> phantomcircuit:  hmm for example I send 50 coins - then auto system got to access wallet to send transfer command
2343 2013-05-28 20:46:21 <MC1984> didnt think that was supposed to matter much with leveldb
2344 2013-05-28 20:46:31 <sipa> helo: if block sizes tend to infinity, full nodes will tend to be only miners
2345 2013-05-28 20:46:48 <BlueMatt> MC1984: "old 5400rpm drive"
2346 2013-05-28 20:47:03 <MC1984> most laptop drives are 5400
2347 2013-05-28 20:47:06 nus has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2348 2013-05-28 20:47:09 <MC1984> and most computers are laptops
2349 2013-05-28 20:47:15 <BlueMatt> most laptop drives are ssds these days...
2350 2013-05-28 20:47:20 <MC1984> in fact most laptops are now tablets :/
2351 2013-05-28 20:47:24 <funky> no!
2352 2013-05-28 20:47:26 <sipa> wwith default dbcache, there is still frequent writing to disk
2353 2013-05-28 20:47:26 <BlueMatt> that too
2354 2013-05-28 20:47:31 <funky> laptops are better
2355 2013-05-28 20:47:51 <MC1984> SSDs dont seem to be quite standard in laptops yet
2356 2013-05-28 20:48:03 <MC1984> not long though i guess
2357 2013-05-28 20:48:04 * BlueMatt goes to plan out his haswell desktop-rebuild...32gb or ram...I will run EVERYTHING in ramdisk
2358 2013-05-28 20:48:10 bd_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2359 2013-05-28 20:48:11 <helo> sipa: don't we want miners to be a minority of full nodes, so they can't dictate mining-selfish rule changes?
2360 2013-05-28 20:48:35 <MC1984> yes
2361 2013-05-28 20:49:42 <MC1984> <phantomcircuit> MC1984, at the moment it does and i expect it will continue to
2362 2013-05-28 20:49:45 jeewee has joined
2363 2013-05-28 20:49:46 <MC1984> you mean for the IDB thing?
2364 2013-05-28 20:49:47 cyphase has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2365 2013-05-28 20:50:06 nus has joined
2366 2013-05-28 20:50:10 Tritonio has joined
2367 2013-05-28 20:50:11 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, loading blocks is largely cpu bound
2368 2013-05-28 20:50:23 <phantomcircuit> i believe largely by OP_CHECKSIG
2369 2013-05-28 20:50:31 bd_ has joined
2370 2013-05-28 20:50:32 <MC1984> yes but MAOR CORES
2371 2013-05-28 20:50:42 <phantomcircuit> MC1984, right
2372 2013-05-28 20:50:44 <MC1984> and sipaspeed
2373 2013-05-28 20:50:49 <phantomcircuit> sipaspeed?
2374 2013-05-28 20:50:50 * BlueMatt ponders dual-cpu workstation...
2375 2013-05-28 20:50:51 <phantomcircuit> wats dat
2376 2013-05-28 20:50:56 <BlueMatt> sipa's ec library
2377 2013-05-28 20:51:01 <BlueMatt> its pretty damn quick
2378 2013-05-28 20:51:09 <funky> u want light sexy laptop
2379 2013-05-28 20:51:11 <phantomcircuit> ah
2380 2013-05-28 20:51:11 serp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2381 2013-05-28 20:51:17 <funky> then u can work in garden
2382 2013-05-28 20:51:19 <MC1984> 6x quicker apparently
2383 2013-05-28 20:51:28 <MC1984> thats like instant 6x MOAR COARS
2384 2013-05-28 20:51:30 <BlueMatt> funky: no, I have a light sexy (thinkpad sexy) i7 laptop...
2385 2013-05-28 20:51:43 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, dual? why not quad http://www.thinkmate.com/System/HPX_XS5-4460-10G
2386 2013-05-28 20:51:53 serp has joined
2387 2013-05-28 20:52:06 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: I already have case + wc setup + graphics card...Im just replacing motherboard + cpu + mem
2388 2013-05-28 20:52:25 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: yes, need to tackle that too :)
2389 2013-05-28 20:52:26 <BlueMatt> (also I dont have /that/ much money...)
2390 2013-05-28 20:52:28 <jgarzik> todolist++
2391 2013-05-28 20:52:35 <helo> i'm just paranoid... i'd like it if the rules ensure that decentralization grows over time given modest assumptions about commodity hardware speed, rather than trying to figure out just how much decentralization we need, assumming perpetual commodity hardware speed improvements (what if global economic collpase?), and running with it
2392 2013-05-28 20:52:43 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, yeah i was mostly joking
2393 2013-05-28 20:52:45 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: what happened to having all that free time to code on bitcoin? :p
2394 2013-05-28 20:53:10 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: people like you keep filling it up
2395 2013-05-28 20:53:11 * jgarzik runs
2396 2013-05-28 20:53:19 <Raccoon> T-2 minutes until launch of the Soyuz shuttle to the International Space Station (ISS) - http://www.space.com/17933-nasa-television-webcasts-live-space-tv.html
2397 2013-05-28 20:53:25 donpdonp has joined
2398 2013-05-28 20:53:28 <MC1984> helo it should level off in terms of economic activity, at some point far in the future
2399 2013-05-28 20:53:33 <BlueMatt> ;;slap jgarzik
2400 2013-05-28 20:53:35 * gribble slaps jgarzik with a sleek GPG key
2401 2013-05-28 20:53:36 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, you can put 1TB of ram into that system
2402 2013-05-28 20:53:37 freefox has joined
2403 2013-05-28 20:53:38 <MC1984> peobably as a funciton of human population leveling off......
2404 2013-05-28 20:53:46 <phantomcircuit> you have 50k i can uh
2405 2013-05-28 20:53:49 <phantomcircuit> "borrow"
2406 2013-05-28 20:53:50 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: holy mother fucker...
2407 2013-05-28 20:54:02 <MC1984> but capitalism stops working overall then so who knows, stock up on bullets kids
2408 2013-05-28 20:54:43 <helo> MC1984: sounds reasonable... that seems to indicate a strict max blocksize so that IBD can be done in log(t) once speed increases taper off
2409 2013-05-28 20:55:04 <MC1984> thats the conclusion ive come to
2410 2013-05-28 20:55:19 <BlueMatt> MC1984: thats not true
2411 2013-05-28 20:55:27 <MC1984> the trick is getting the system there withough knocking the marble off the saddle at some point
2412 2013-05-28 20:55:30 <jgarzik> capitalism never stops working for me
2413 2013-05-28 20:55:36 <BlueMatt> MC1984: I actually wasnt joking about verifyable computation
2414 2013-05-28 20:55:48 <MC1984> homes im still trying to find out what that is
2415 2013-05-28 20:55:58 rdymac has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2416 2013-05-28 20:56:08 santoscork has quit (Quit: Quiet while I make like a cat)
2417 2013-05-28 20:56:09 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, lol yeah it's easy to configure a 75k usd system on that site
2418 2013-05-28 20:56:17 <phantomcircuit> i wonder who actually buys them
2419 2013-05-28 20:56:20 <phantomcircuit> im sure someone does
2420 2013-05-28 20:56:22 <sipa> MC1984: no, much better than 6x more cores, as it doesn't cause contention between cores to scale up :)
2421 2013-05-28 20:56:24 <BlueMatt> cryptographic proof that the data I'm giving you was generated by an accurate run of the given program
2422 2013-05-28 20:56:42 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: the companies who have too much money and who's employees "need" it to dev
2423 2013-05-28 20:56:45 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2424 2013-05-28 20:56:46 <MC1984> smells like trusted computing......
2425 2013-05-28 20:56:57 <BlueMatt> its trusted computing that is actually trustable :p
2426 2013-05-28 20:57:00 <sipa> MC1984: no, that's related but not the same
2427 2013-05-28 20:57:08 <BlueMatt> (and in software)
2428 2013-05-28 20:57:10 <MC1984> first reaction is le nope
2429 2013-05-28 20:57:15 <sipa> MC1984: this is based on cryptography, not on trusted hardware
2430 2013-05-28 20:57:33 bd_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2431 2013-05-28 20:57:34 <BlueMatt> MC1984: yes, that is how most people responded to RSA initially
2432 2013-05-28 20:57:53 serp has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2433 2013-05-28 20:58:01 serp has joined
2434 2013-05-28 20:58:09 <BlueMatt> hmm...4x8GB for $200...buy
2435 2013-05-28 20:58:26 <sipa> i need to build me a new desktop system
2436 2013-05-28 20:58:37 <sipa> just to get my mental hardware price reference up to date
2437 2013-05-28 20:58:38 <MC1984> ok well without dismissing things out of hand, it sounds like a good way to entrench a system where you cant run exactly the code you want to
2438 2013-05-28 20:58:55 <sipa> MC1984: that has nothing to do with it
2439 2013-05-28 20:58:56 <BlueMatt> sipa: now's the time (well, in a month or two's the time)
2440 2013-05-28 20:59:06 <BlueMatt> sipa: at least if you're building it yourself, that is
2441 2013-05-28 20:59:12 <MC1984> ok i will reserve judgement
2442 2013-05-28 20:59:17 <MC1984> not that my judgement matters
2443 2013-05-28 20:59:36 <sipa> MC1984: you have a program, you give it to me, i run the program on secret input, and produce a small proof
2444 2013-05-28 20:59:44 <sipa> MC1984: and the output
2445 2013-05-28 21:00:06 <sipa> MC1984: you can verify that the output is actually the result of me running your program
2446 2013-05-28 21:00:11 <sipa> MC1984: cheaply
2447 2013-05-28 21:00:20 <sipa> MC1984: and without knowing the input i ran it on
2448 2013-05-28 21:00:24 resinate has quit (Quit: resinate)
2449 2013-05-28 21:00:35 <MC1984> so a way to zero trust someone elses work verifying the entire chain?
2450 2013-05-28 21:00:37 jtimon has joined
2451 2013-05-28 21:00:57 <sipa> where 'small' means: the proof is the proportional to size of the _program_, not to its runtime
2452 2013-05-28 21:01:08 <sipa> producing the proof is expensive, though
2453 2013-05-28 21:01:10 <BlueMatt> (which is ideal for the blockchain, because you dont care about the input, if you spv bootstrap then you know the best hash, and can ensure the chain state you just got is actually correct for that hash)
2454 2013-05-28 21:01:15 <sipa> much more expensive than just running it
2455 2013-05-28 21:01:53 <MC1984> so a way to zero trust someone elses work verifying the entire chain?
2456 2013-05-28 21:02:05 <tholenst> MC1984: yes
2457 2013-05-28 21:02:09 <sipa> using it for the bitcoin blockchain is probably hard
2458 2013-05-28 21:02:23 <MC1984> sounds like leprechaun magic
2459 2013-05-28 21:02:32 <BlueMatt> MC1984: isnt cryptography always?
2460 2013-05-28 21:02:33 <tholenst> did Eli Ben-Sasson talk about that at bitcoin 2013?
2461 2013-05-28 21:02:37 <sipa> yes
2462 2013-05-28 21:02:44 serp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2463 2013-05-28 21:02:45 <sipa> as in too computationally expensive to produce the proof for that
2464 2013-05-28 21:02:51 bd_ has joined
2465 2013-05-28 21:03:15 <donpdonp> are any bitcoin2013 presentation videos online?
2466 2013-05-28 21:03:30 <MC1984> if it onyl has to be done once, start a boinc project, i dunno....
2467 2013-05-28 21:03:57 serp has joined
2468 2013-05-28 21:03:59 phma has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2469 2013-05-28 21:04:01 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Quitte)
2470 2013-05-28 21:04:14 <BlueMatt> MC1984: more like a kickstarter to buy...all of ec2
2471 2013-05-28 21:04:45 <MC1984> id fund it
2472 2013-05-28 21:05:01 <MC1984> STRECH GOAL: we buy microsoft
2473 2013-05-28 21:05:06 <sipa> gmaxwell has more numbers than i do
2474 2013-05-28 21:05:17 <BlueMatt> MC1984: who would want that?
2475 2013-05-28 21:05:23 <sipa> but iirc it required mostly an extremely high amount of RAM
2476 2013-05-28 21:05:31 <sipa> BlueMatt: embrace & extinguish?
2477 2013-05-28 21:05:36 resinate has joined
2478 2013-05-28 21:05:42 <MC1984> buy ms, opensource everything, lulz
2479 2013-05-28 21:05:56 bd_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2480 2013-05-28 21:06:02 <BlueMatt> MC1984: watch as windows gets ownd...harder than it does now (is that possible?)
2481 2013-05-28 21:06:36 <MC1984> but it should get more secure eventually, the greater good :p
2482 2013-05-28 21:06:37 sipa has left ()
2483 2013-05-28 21:06:43 <BlueMatt> wat?
2484 2013-05-28 21:06:48 <MC1984> the world would probably literally burn before then but w/e
2485 2013-05-28 21:06:51 <BlueMatt> since when does sipa leave?
2486 2013-05-28 21:07:12 <MC1984> he'll be back
2487 2013-05-28 21:07:40 <BlueMatt> (he's usually on a bouncer)
2488 2013-05-28 21:07:53 <jgarzik> He Has Left The Building.
2489 2013-05-28 21:08:29 <MC1984> datacenter people spilt beer on the servers again
2490 2013-05-28 21:08:34 serp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2491 2013-05-28 21:14:03 sacrelege has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2494 2013-05-28 21:16:26 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, well hilariously if you can get a 2x performance improvement out of a dev an expenditure like that isn't even ridiculous
2495 2013-05-28 21:16:51 <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: yes, this is why that market exists
2496 2013-05-28 21:17:01 <phantomcircuit> yup
2497 2013-05-28 21:17:16 * BlueMatt wishes someone would buy him a workstation like that...
2498 2013-05-28 21:17:18 <phantomcircuit> people forget the average american worker is backed by ~100k usd in capital
2499 2013-05-28 21:17:35 <BlueMatt> (per year)
2500 2013-05-28 21:17:37 <phantomcircuit> which is a pretty bizarre thing to think about sitting here with my $400 desktop
2501 2013-05-28 21:17:54 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, no i meant like the cost off infrastructure to support their work
2502 2013-05-28 21:17:55 <BlueMatt> well, a white collar at least
2503 2013-05-28 21:18:07 <BlueMatt> wat?
2504 2013-05-28 21:18:19 <BlueMatt> well I suppose realestate is expensive as fuck
2505 2013-05-28 21:18:21 <phantomcircuit> like construction workers driving around 50k usd equipment
2506 2013-05-28 21:18:33 <BlueMatt> seems high
2507 2013-05-28 21:18:39 <BlueMatt> well, yea, that makes sense
2508 2013-05-28 21:18:44 clr_ has joined
2509 2013-05-28 21:19:03 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, i think being in tech sort of warps the view of how much capital it takes to do a lot of tings
2510 2013-05-28 21:19:05 <phantomcircuit> things*
2511 2013-05-28 21:19:15 <BlueMatt> I think someone mistakenly divided total capital by total workers and called it a day...
2512 2013-05-28 21:19:18 <phantomcircuit> you can do some pretty amazing things on a shoe string budget in tech
2513 2013-05-28 21:19:20 <phantomcircuit> like say
2514 2013-05-28 21:19:21 <phantomcircuit> bitcoin
2515 2013-05-28 21:19:22 <phantomcircuit> lol
2516 2013-05-28 21:19:46 <BlueMatt> but I suppose if you define it that way 100k makes sense
2517 2013-05-28 21:19:50 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, well yeah it's definitely skewed by extreme outliers
2518 2013-05-28 21:20:06 <BlueMatt> anyway, Im off
2519 2013-05-28 21:20:10 <phantomcircuit> the guy driving the million dollar coal mine dump truck for example
2520 2013-05-28 21:20:31 <BlueMatt> heh, thats some expensive insurance...
2521 2013-05-28 21:22:26 <dugo> if you count the capital required to give phantomcircuit a roof over his head and a powerplug things go in the direction of 100k quickly i suppose
2522 2013-05-28 21:22:38 tucenaber has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2523 2013-05-28 21:22:38 <jgarzik> "well hilariously if you can get a 2x performance improvement out of a dev an expenditure like that isn't even ridiculous"  <<---  I spent $58,000 on a 1100 sq.ft. cabin as a super-office
2524 2013-05-28 21:22:43 <jgarzik> all in the quest for productivity
2525 2013-05-28 21:23:08 <phantomcircuit> dugo, never thought of it that way
2526 2013-05-28 21:23:18 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, did it work
2527 2013-05-28 21:23:25 <jgarzik> hell yes
2528 2013-05-28 21:23:39 <jgarzik> of course, then BitPay hired me, and now it's time to sell it ;p
2529 2013-05-28 21:23:47 <phantomcircuit> lol
2530 2013-05-28 21:23:55 <jgarzik> http://www.trulia.com/homes/North_Carolina/Raleigh/sold/1000887172-5524-Hester-Dr-Raleigh-NC-27606
2531 2013-05-28 21:24:13 <phantomcircuit> so i believe i have narrowed down the problem with rpc to the boost::asio stuff
2532 2013-05-28 21:24:20 <phantomcircuit> however i consider most of that to be black magic
2533 2013-05-28 21:24:23 <phantomcircuit> so i give up
2534 2013-05-28 21:24:42 <phantomcircuit> i'll just write rpc calls to do everything i need so each op is 1 rpc call
2535 2013-05-28 21:25:10 jeewee has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2536 2013-05-28 21:25:18 normanrichards has joined
2537 2013-05-28 21:25:35 <BlueMatt> hell look at how much the big tech guys spend on facilities...
2538 2013-05-28 21:25:54 <phantomcircuit> on that note im off to get lunch on someone elses dime
2539 2013-05-28 21:25:56 <phantomcircuit> horray
2540 2013-05-28 21:26:15 cyphase has joined
2541 2013-05-28 21:26:22 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: is bitpay moving you out of Raleigh?
2542 2013-05-28 21:26:29 <phantomcircuit> i assume atlanta
2543 2013-05-28 21:26:35 <jgarzik> *moved
2544 2013-05-28 21:26:44 <jgarzik> today starts second Atlanta work week
2545 2013-05-28 21:26:58 <BlueMatt> oh, damn...well guess its too late for a triangle bitcoin meetup then
2546 2013-05-28 21:27:00 <jgarzik> though so much moving-the-family crap is going on, still not getting much done ;p
2547 2013-05-28 21:27:04 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, so what are you doing for them other than being on irc all day
2548 2013-05-28 21:27:22 <jgarzik> I wish I was on IRC all day.  Stupid Mac kills IRC every time it sleeps.
2549 2013-05-28 21:27:26 <Luke-Jr> lol
2550 2013-05-28 21:27:38 <phantomcircuit> and this is why i dont have a mac
2551 2013-05-28 21:27:41 <BlueMatt> tell them their stock webpage photos suck?
2552 2013-05-28 21:27:53 <phantomcircuit> it's unfortunate that there isn't a well supported linux distro
2553 2013-05-28 21:28:30 <sturles> Isn't there?
2554 2013-05-28 21:28:44 <sturles> You can get good (paid) support from RedHat.
2555 2013-05-28 21:28:44 <phantomcircuit> sturles, i mean on recent mac book pros
2556 2013-05-28 21:28:49 <sturles> Ah.
2557 2013-05-28 21:28:57 <phantomcircuit> i see now that wasn't entirely clear
2558 2013-05-28 21:29:18 <phantomcircuit> also this poor workstation is dying under the load of trying to import the entire txout set into postgresql
2559 2013-05-28 21:29:44 * sturles needs a new netbook.
2560 2013-05-28 21:30:17 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, I wouldn't blame the computer or database engine, there.....
2561 2013-05-28 21:30:19 * jgarzik runs
2562 2013-05-28 21:31:18 <sturles> If anyone know of a good netbook with Linux (small, long battery life), then please tell me.  My Eee 901 won't charge any more. :-(
2563 2013-05-28 21:31:26 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, there's ~15k iops
2564 2013-05-28 21:31:38 <denisx> phantomcircuit: you doing it wrong then
2565 2013-05-28 21:31:38 Blitzboom has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2566 2013-05-28 21:31:49 <phantomcircuit> i assure you i am not
2567 2013-05-28 21:31:50 <jgarzik> That's what happens when you try to shove a square peg through a round hole ;p
2568 2013-05-28 21:31:58 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, yeah pretty much
2569 2013-05-28 21:32:08 <phantomcircuit> but i want my 2ms address lookups
2570 2013-05-28 21:32:09 porquilho has quit ()
2571 2013-05-28 21:32:32 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2572 2013-05-28 21:33:13 <jgarzik> just wait until P2SH becomes popular, and screws up address lookups for -everyone- :)
2573 2013-05-28 21:33:58 <funky> :)
2574 2013-05-28 21:34:16 <funky> guys time to play satoshi dice with 0.0001?
2575 2013-05-28 21:34:16 <funky> :P
2576 2013-05-28 21:34:36 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, "for performance reasons we only accept pubkeyhash standard transaction outputs, thank you"
2577 2013-05-28 21:34:58 Diablo-D3 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2578 2013-05-28 21:35:08 <jgarzik> I predict businesses will prefer pubkeyhash, and anonymous folks will prefer P2SH
2579 2013-05-28 21:35:40 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I don't see why
2580 2013-05-28 21:35:52 <Luke-Jr> I'd think businesses would want the added security
2581 2013-05-28 21:36:33 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, PeterV was all about tracking through the block chain, emphasizing the importance of in-chain auditing etc.
2582 2013-05-28 21:36:40 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, cannot audit P2SH until its spent
2583 2013-05-28 21:36:50 <jgarzik> (or script provided OOB)
2584 2013-05-28 21:37:20 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: you need to provide keys OOB anyway; providing a script template is no harder
2585 2013-05-28 21:37:39 <jgarzik> to spend yes, to audit no
2586 2013-05-28 21:37:41 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, well and anyways i actually just care about determining who/what should get credit for a txout if it's Mine()
2587 2013-05-28 21:38:02 <jgarzik> yeah, it breaks all sorts of code like that
2588 2013-05-28 21:38:02 <phantomcircuit> my time would probably be better spent trying to improve the wallet code
2589 2013-05-28 21:38:05 <funky> folks what is way to secure exchange apart cold storage manual  payouts? I am thinking using sec pass  handshake to temp open wallet server port to sending api json call?
2590 2013-05-28 21:38:13 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: can't audit if you don't know what keys to look for
2591 2013-05-28 21:40:27 jevin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2592 2013-05-28 21:43:05 <funky> :)
2593 2013-05-28 21:43:43 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, really the only problem with P2SH is it makes signaling which transaction is to pay an invoice or something an out of band thing
2594 2013-05-28 21:43:47 jevin has joined
2595 2013-05-28 21:44:11 <phantomcircuit> unless you run a checksig against every key you know about and every transaction
2596 2013-05-28 21:44:12 <jgm> blockchain=> SELECT * FROM t_output WHERE f_receivingaddress = '1A1zP1eP5QGefi2DMPTfTL5SLmv7DivfNa';
2597 2013-05-28 21:44:12 <jgm> Time: 2.451 ms
2598 2013-05-28 21:44:13 Ferroh has quit (Quit: *SMOKE BOMB*)
2599 2013-05-28 21:44:20 <jgm> You can get there if you try :)
2600 2013-05-28 21:44:30 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, or requires keeping a lot of derivations
2601 2013-05-28 21:44:47 <phantomcircuit> jgm, that's nice, now make receiving address an ARRAY and maintain the time
2602 2013-05-28 21:45:11 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, e.g. to watch key A, you need to scan for key A, pubkeyhash(A), and hash(txout with pubkeyhash A)
2603 2013-05-28 21:45:13 <jgm> jgarzik: you should take a look at Quassel.  It's a client/server IRC so if you have a server where you can run the core piece you can pick up where you left off very easily
2604 2013-05-28 21:45:45 <jgm> phantomcircuit: Just use the in-built PostgreSQL array type
2605 2013-05-28 21:45:48 funky has left ()
2606 2013-05-28 21:46:12 <jgm> Although are there (m)any transactions out there with multiple receiving addresses?
2607 2013-05-28 21:46:25 <MC1984> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/28/idc_predicts_worst_year_for_pcs/
2608 2013-05-28 21:46:30 <denisx> jgm: is that already with an index?
2609 2013-05-28 21:46:34 <phantomcircuit> jgm, i dont think there are any yet
2610 2013-05-28 21:46:38 <phantomcircuit> but i expect there will be
2611 2013-05-28 21:46:41 jevin_ has joined
2612 2013-05-28 21:46:46 <MC1984> "Tablets surpassing portables in 2013, and total PCs in 2015, marks a significant change in consumer attitudes about compute devices and the applications and ecosystems that power them," he said. " < yeah thats discouraging
2613 2013-05-28 21:47:04 jevin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2614 2013-05-28 21:47:46 <jgm> denisx: yeah I added a bunch of indices, although the tables are still normalised so a lot of queries require joins
2615 2013-05-28 21:47:57 <jgm> Still not too painful to run the stuff that I need however
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2618 2013-05-28 21:49:02 <jgm> phantomcircuit: shouldn't make much difference to the query time.  From my experience postgresql arrays are pretty fast
2619 2013-05-28 21:49:07 resinate has quit (Quit: resinate)
2620 2013-05-28 21:49:22 <phantomcircuit> jg_away, it doesn't
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2624 2013-05-28 21:49:40 <phantomcircuit> actually the biggest speed up is using bytea instead of character varying
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2628 2013-05-28 21:52:11 <jgm> In that case your database is probably in decent shape.  As long as you have enough memory and a decent-speed backing store it should move fast enough
2629 2013-05-28 21:52:44 <phantomcircuit> jgm, yeah the issue is saving the data
2630 2013-05-28 21:52:53 <phantomcircuit> it's killing this samsung 840 pro
2631 2013-05-28 21:53:30 <phantomcircuit> ~50% iowait
2632 2013-05-28 21:53:36 <phantomcircuit>  17:30:02 up 19:08,  2 users,  load average: 33.47, 33.44, 31.68
2633 2013-05-28 21:53:42 <phantomcircuit> this on a system with 4 cores
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2636 2013-05-28 21:55:05 <phantomcircuit> jgm, the real test is the overlap operator
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2643 2013-05-28 22:06:35 <jgm> phantomcircuit: building out the data the trick is to avoid stipulating relationships before time.  So don't define foreign key relationships in the schema to begin with, put them in after you've built out the data
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2647 2013-05-28 22:08:02 <jgm> More importantly, you can avoid the overhead of thigns like WAL if you do a big \copy with the right parameters in postgresql.conf
2648 2013-05-28 22:08:24 <jgm> What are you attempting to overlap?  Sample query?
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2654 2013-05-28 22:18:52 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
2655 2013-05-28 22:19:13 <phantomcircuit> jgm, im not going to put them in at all
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2657 2013-05-28 22:19:26 <phantomcircuit> performance impact is too significant
2658 2013-05-28 22:20:00 <phantomcircuit> jgm, select * from transaction_outputs where addresses && ARRAY[a,b,c,d];
2659 2013-05-28 22:20:25 <phantomcircuit> will return outputs where a or b or c or d are in addresses
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2663 2013-05-28 22:24:44 <jgm> Not seeing an issue here, tbh
2664 2013-05-28 22:24:46 <jgm> blockchain=> SELECT * FROM t_output WHERE f_receivingaddress = ANY(ARRAY['1A1zP1eP5QGefi2DMPTfTL5SLmv7DivfNa', '12c6DSiU4Rq3P4ZxziKxzrL5LmMBrzjrJX', '1HLoD9E4SDFFPDiYfNYnkBLQ85Y51J3Zb1', '1FvzCLoTPGANNjWoUo6jUGuAG3wg1w4YjR', '15ubicBBWFnvoZLT7GiU2qxjRaKJPdkDMG', '1GkQmKAmHtNfnD3LHhTkewJxKHVSta4m2a']);
2665 2013-05-28 22:24:46 <jgm> Time: 2.052 ms
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2683 2013-05-28 22:32:31 <TheLordOfTime> is there a way in bitcoin-qt to send bitcoins from one address to another within the wallet and NOT need to include a transaction fee?
2684 2013-05-28 22:32:55 <TheLordOfTime> or will it just never get picked up if i don't include the tx fee?
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2691 2013-05-28 22:36:31 <gonffen> TheLordOfTime: the network does not know about your wallet
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2700 2013-05-28 22:46:07 <TheLordOfTime> gonffen:  then the question is "can i send from one address to another without a fee and make sure it's picked up?"
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2704 2013-05-28 22:47:10 <Luke-Jr> TheLordOfTime: Bitcoin does not have "from addresses" at all, so..
2705 2013-05-28 22:47:19 <TheLordOfTime> that doesn't answer my question!
2706 2013-05-28 22:47:27 <TheLordOfTime> nor does it help.
2707 2013-05-28 22:47:28 <Luke-Jr> sending to yourself is no different than sending to someone else
2708 2013-05-28 22:47:51 TheLordOfTime has left ("not getting useful answers so blah")
2709 2013-05-28 22:48:08 <midnightmagic> doh
2710 2013-05-28 22:48:11 <nimdAHK> nice
2711 2013-05-28 22:48:40 <nimdAHK> !topic
2712 2013-05-28 22:48:41 <gribble> http://bitcoin.org/ https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/ | Latest version: 0.8.2rc | #bitcoin-dev: Development of the Bitcoin Protocol/clients | Other support/discussion: #bitcoin | Dont ask to ask, just ask | Tell us what you're trying to do, not how you think you need to do it. | This channel is logged: http://bitcoinstats.com/ | There is no from address | This is not LTC support
2713 2013-05-28 22:48:49 <nimdAHK> THERE IS NO FROM ADDRESS
2714 2013-05-28 22:49:02 <midnightmagic> :-/
2715 2013-05-28 22:49:21 <Vinnie_win> THERE IS NO Champagne Room!
2716 2013-05-28 22:49:25 <midnightmagic> conceptually there is.
2717 2013-05-28 22:50:04 <nimdAHK> nope
2718 2013-05-28 22:50:12 * midnightmagic rolls eyes.
2719 2013-05-28 22:50:15 <nimdAHK> there's a "from group of addresses"
2720 2013-05-28 22:50:15 egis has quit (Quit: Leaving)
2721 2013-05-28 22:50:16 <nimdAHK> maybe
2722 2013-05-28 22:50:40 <Luke-Jr> not even that
2723 2013-05-28 22:50:46 <nimdAHK> sometimes it's "from group of addresses, pubkeys, and IP addresses"
2724 2013-05-28 22:50:52 <nimdAHK> sometimes it's "from coinbase"
2725 2013-05-28 22:51:25 <midnightmagic> That wasn't his question. His question has nothing to do with coinbase txn, NOR IP addresses.
2726 2013-05-28 22:51:31 <nimdAHK> still
2727 2013-05-28 22:51:39 <nimdAHK> that still leaves you with "from group of addresses"
2728 2013-05-28 22:51:47 <nimdAHK> which a good portion of txns are
2729 2013-05-28 22:51:59 <Luke-Jr> from IP addresses are just about as relevant as "from group of addresses" - neither really exist
2730 2013-05-28 22:52:03 <midnightmagic> You can fight all you like against popular vocabulary, but to be obstinate until someone uses technically accurate vocabulary in just going to drive people away.
2731 2013-05-28 22:52:16 <nimdAHK> midnightmagic: but it's absolutely WRONG
2732 2013-05-28 22:52:21 <nimdAHK> that's the thing
2733 2013-05-28 22:52:30 <CodeShark> I think he was asking whether or not it's possible to swap which private key unlocks a set of bitcoins without having to pay a fee
2734 2013-05-28 22:52:30 <midnightmagic> nimdAHK: You are describing yet another situation in which his question actually did not apply.
2735 2013-05-28 22:52:45 <nimdAHK> midnightmagic: find me the from address
2736 2013-05-28 22:52:46 <nimdAHK> http://blockchain.info/tx/be00090b8218ba64fedacde229e4ab6c46c684771a9c977e5e899b7a7fbc7dfd
2737 2013-05-28 22:53:06 <Luke-Jr> nimdAHK: bad example link
2738 2013-05-28 22:53:16 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: no point
2739 2013-05-28 22:53:21 anarchy5_ has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
2740 2013-05-28 22:53:23 <nimdAHK> Luke-Jr: mm?
2741 2013-05-28 22:53:34 <nimdAHK> why is it bad?
2742 2013-05-28 22:53:47 <Luke-Jr> nimdAHK: blockchain.info is terrible, very misrepresents how bitcoin works
2743 2013-05-28 22:53:51 <CodeShark> I've had occasion to do that, Luke-Jr - i.e. I believe a key might be compromised
2744 2013-05-28 22:53:56 savetheinternet has joined
2745 2013-05-28 22:53:59 <Luke-Jr> in this case, it shows a "from address" inferred from coin history
2746 2013-05-28 22:54:10 <nimdAHK> even simpler
2747 2013-05-28 22:54:17 <nimdAHK> there are 2 so called "from addresses"
2748 2013-05-28 22:54:24 <Luke-Jr> nimdAHK: but there aren't any.
2749 2013-05-28 22:54:28 <nimdAHK> right
2750 2013-05-28 22:54:37 <midnightmagic> nimdAHK: I'll find you *a* from address. http://blockchain.info/en/tx/d40ec978636dd6a8c0ddec53d65b80bab39f960f490bb6e4156fbe9e11c4db26  <-- there's a tx with a single input. "From" address in this case is 18QGmDEKzwWgR3ebJndkmLwXTLE5ZT9dfW.
2751 2013-05-28 22:55:00 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: no, that's just the address a coin in the blockchain history was sent to before that
2752 2013-05-28 22:55:01 pejean has joined
2753 2013-05-28 22:55:09 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: it has no bearing on *that* transaction
2754 2013-05-28 22:55:32 <CodeShark> let's argue the meaning of the word "meaning"
2755 2013-05-28 22:55:34 <Luke-Jr> bearing/relevance
2756 2013-05-28 22:55:44 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: colloquially, a "from" address. The signature had to be signed by the privkey, correct?
2757 2013-05-28 22:55:53 <midnightmagic> Of a single key.
2758 2013-05-28 22:56:01 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: irrelevant, the signer might not be the sender
2759 2013-05-28 22:56:02 rdponticelli has joined
2760 2013-05-28 22:56:29 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: You are describing a situation in which the original question does not apply. He already was clear that he is his own signer.
2761 2013-05-28 22:57:01 <midnightmagic> .. I think we've had this discussion before.
2762 2013-05-28 22:57:05 savetheinternet has quit (Client Quit)
2763 2013-05-28 22:57:22 atweiden has joined
2764 2013-05-28 22:58:07 <midnightmagic> We can erect all the barriers to effective communication we like, but demanding people approach us from the East rather than any other direction isn't *helping* communication happen.
2765 2013-05-28 22:59:00 <midnightmagic> "Use the right vocabulary; also, we're not going to tell you what it is. Guess. Also, we're going to tell you nebulously how wrong you are each time you make a mistake."
2766 2013-05-28 22:59:20 <Luke-Jr> it's not about vocabulary, it's about something that doesn't exist
2767 2013-05-28 22:59:50 <Luke-Jr> I mean, you could speak about "the address one of the input coins had been sent to before", but it's *irrelevant*
2768 2013-05-28 22:59:52 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: How does that help someone in whose mind the concepts do not yet exist to express the question in a way you prefer to answer?
2769 2013-05-28 23:00:12 <midnightmagic> It's not irrelevant since the nature of the question was clear.
2770 2013-05-28 23:00:25 <Luke-Jr> it doesn't help get an answer to rephrase it. it just changes it from "doesn't exist" to "irrelevant"
2771 2013-05-28 23:00:58 <Plinker> It appears the DOJ is looking at bitcoin anyway
2772 2013-05-28 23:01:01 brwyatt_ is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt_
2773 2013-05-28 23:01:02 <midnightmagic> And yet, I'm fairly certain I could have not only answered his question, but corrected any misconceptions he had.
2774 2013-05-28 23:01:06 <midnightmagic> How mysterious.
2775 2013-05-28 23:01:20 GordonG3kko has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2776 2013-05-28 23:02:25 <midnightmagic> Also, I'm fairly certain both of you could have done so too.
2777 2013-05-28 23:06:16 gjj has joined
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2780 2013-05-28 23:12:53 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2785 2013-05-28 23:18:16 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: I couldn't figure out a real question from what he said, let alone answer one
2786 2013-05-28 23:18:34 <Luke-Jr> other than "can I send to myself without fees? no"
2787 2013-05-28 23:19:02 <CodeShark> was that so hard? :)
2788 2013-05-28 23:19:05 <damientrog> I just lost noticed I lost a lot of coins according to blockchain, but not according to my client, I'm a bit puzzled
2789 2013-05-28 23:19:12 <midnightmagic> You can if you have someone who's a miner.
2790 2013-05-28 23:19:19 <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: well, I did say that
2791 2013-05-28 23:19:37 <damientrog> I sent 2 BTC, but apparently sent 29+ according to blockchain
2792 2013-05-28 23:19:38 <damientrog> https://blockchain.info/en/tx/5f3570ef0d777cbb91edfaf6a8822d2f4608e8e5f1a0e776d396d98aa7e13136
2793 2013-05-28 23:19:39 <Luke-Jr> damientrog: blockchain.info you mean? bad idea
2794 2013-05-28 23:19:44 <damientrog> yes
2795 2013-05-28 23:20:00 <damientrog> well I sent it with the bitcoin client
2796 2013-05-28 23:20:07 <Luke-Jr> damientrog: blockchain.info is very confusing because it misrepresents how bitcoin works, and provides low-level details that normal people wouldn't/shouldn't see
2797 2013-05-28 23:20:34 <damientrog> yes I understand, but according to it my final balance is 1.6 BTC
2798 2013-05-28 23:20:42 <Luke-Jr> (not that giving low-level details is bad, but it confuses people when they mix it with misinformation and present it in a way that implies things that aren't true)
2799 2013-05-28 23:20:44 <damientrog> while the client has something like 35
2800 2013-05-28 23:20:54 <Luke-Jr> damientrog: blockchain.info has no idea what your balance is
2801 2013-05-28 23:20:59 <damientrog> ah ok
2802 2013-05-28 23:21:10 <midnightmagic> blockchain.info also eats up lots and lots of connection slots because it tries to connect to everyone in the whole bitcoin network.
2803 2013-05-28 23:21:14 <Luke-Jr> damientrog: also, it sounds like you're using addresses more than once. don't do that.
2804 2013-05-28 23:21:25 <damientrog> uh oh
2805 2013-05-28 23:21:27 Michail1 is now known as Michail1_
2806 2013-05-28 23:21:34 <damientrog> yes I did
2807 2013-05-28 23:21:45 <robbak_> Is there a log of the chat here? I made a comment last night about my diagnosis of a crash I am having, and I'd like to see the replies to it, which have slid off the top of my client's history.
2808 2013-05-28 23:22:00 <damientrog> same wallet is being used on blockchain and on my computer
2809 2013-05-28 23:22:15 <damientrog> (I had to put my laptop in for repairs, and thought that was a good idea at the time)
2810 2013-05-28 23:22:24 <damientrog> blockchain.info
2811 2013-05-28 23:22:32 <midnightmagic> robbak_: Yes, this channel is logged, at http://bitcoinstats.com/ among other places.
2812 2013-05-28 23:22:38 <Luke-Jr> damientrog: even worse
2813 2013-05-28 23:22:55 <robbak_> tx
2814 2013-05-28 23:22:57 parker_ has quit (Quit: leaving)
2815 2013-05-28 23:23:06 <Luke-Jr> damientrog: also, addresses are not wallets. don't confuse the two >_<
2816 2013-05-28 23:23:37 <damientrog> well I imported the wallet in blockchain.info, so I thought my terminology was correct
2817 2013-05-28 23:23:41 <Luke-Jr> damientrog: if your Bitcoin-Qt shows your full balance, I recommend backing up and destroying blockchain.info's "copy" of the wallet
2818 2013-05-28 23:23:44 <damientrog> I know the difference
2819 2013-05-28 23:23:52 <damientrog> thank you for your help
2820 2013-05-28 23:23:57 <damientrog> I'll do that
2821 2013-05-28 23:24:26 <damientrog> it's late now, so I'm gonna do it when fresh
2822 2013-05-28 23:25:09 <damientrog> regards
2823 2013-05-28 23:25:11 damientrog has quit (Quit: damientrog)
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2831 2013-05-28 23:32:11 <robbak_> Drat, bitcoinstats missed it!
2832 2013-05-28 23:32:20 banghouse has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2833 2013-05-28 23:32:38 <robbak_> I'll repost it and see what anyone has to say.
2834 2013-05-28 23:33:17 <robbak_> I've got a repeatable crash when the peers.dat file is zero sized, which seems to happen when my system resets.
2835 2013-05-28 23:33:31 <robbak_> I think I've got it. After the crash, the peers.dat ends up at zero bytes. It then tries to resize a vector to 0 - sizeof(uint256), which is negative. vector::resize takes the int as unsigned, and tries to allocate 18hextillion bytes, which throws and exception!
2836 2013-05-28 23:33:43 <robbak_> src/db.cpp, line 543. Found, if someone else doesn't place a fix, I'll look at it myself tomorrow.
2837 2013-05-28 23:35:38 <BooleanFracture> Hi, How come it's possible using bitcoind that you can move from one account to another (same wallet), money you don't have, and ending up with a negative balance?
2838 2013-05-28 23:35:57 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
2839 2013-05-28 23:36:11 <BooleanFracture> Isn't "move" supposed to check [minconf] ?
2840 2013-05-28 23:37:40 <Luke-Jr> BooleanFracture: it's not possible to move money you don't have
2841 2013-05-28 23:37:56 <Luke-Jr> if you have a negative balance in one account, you'll have at least as much positive in another
2842 2013-05-28 23:39:03 BooleanFracture has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2843 2013-05-28 23:39:06 <Corndawg> so has any pruning of the blockchain ever happened yet or is it still virgin until some later date when it gets too big to ignore?
2844 2013-05-28 23:39:22 <MC1984> not yet
2845 2013-05-28 23:39:26 BooleanFracture has joined
2846 2013-05-28 23:39:39 <MC1984> not until some important questionas are answered
2847 2013-05-28 23:40:38 jaakkos has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2848 2013-05-28 23:40:56 jaakkos has joined
2849 2013-05-28 23:43:53 [\\\] is now known as pirateat40
2850 2013-05-28 23:45:57 pirateat40 is now known as [\\\]
2851 2013-05-28 23:46:18 <Corndawg> like?
2852 2013-05-28 23:46:29 <Corndawg> who is satoshi?
2853 2013-05-28 23:46:32 <Corndawg> :)
2854 2013-05-28 23:46:37 Tritonio__ has joined
2855 2013-05-28 23:47:10 Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 241 seconds)
2856 2013-05-28 23:47:11 <MC1984> satoshi is in all of us
2857 2013-05-28 23:47:26 <MC1984> like mediclorians
2858 2013-05-28 23:48:08 GordonG3kko has joined
2859 2013-05-28 23:48:11 viperhr has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2860 2013-05-28 23:48:15 <MC1984> http://abstrusegoose.com/509
2861 2013-05-28 23:48:37 viperhr has joined
2862 2013-05-28 23:51:17 [\\\] is now known as pirateat40
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2864 2013-05-28 23:51:49 pirateat40 is now known as [\\\]
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2870 2013-05-28 23:55:27 Toresh_ is now known as Toresh
2871 2013-05-28 23:58:06 <Vinnie_win> "#define loop for (;;)" Really? This is still in there? (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/util.h)
2872 2013-05-28 23:58:14 normanrichards has joined
2873 2013-05-28 23:58:46 <HM_> everyone loves a good loop
2874 2013-05-28 23:58:57 <Vinnie_win> And a good macro even moreso. Said no one ever!