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  21 2013-05-30 00:24:31 <phantomcircuit> ok this is weird
  22 2013-05-30 00:24:51 <nsh> hmm?
  23 2013-05-30 00:25:05 <phantomcircuit> CRPCTable::execute is called, cs_main & pwalletMain->cs_wallet locks acquired
  24 2013-05-30 00:25:10 <phantomcircuit> but the rpc call is never made
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  29 2013-05-30 00:33:35 <phantomcircuit> interesting
  30 2013-05-30 00:33:39 <phantomcircuit> it's a thread pool issue
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  32 2013-05-30 00:33:48 <phantomcircuit> rpcthreads=1 and it blocks until i kill the call
  33 2013-05-30 00:33:51 <phantomcircuit> then it restarts
  34 2013-05-30 00:34:00 <phantomcircuit> so there's something screwy with the thread pool logic
  35 2013-05-30 00:34:37 <nsh> (also the logic of using thread pools)
  36 2013-05-30 00:35:15 <jaromil> gimme a clean thread pool and i'll give a clean world.
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  40 2013-05-30 00:38:13 <phantomcircuit> jaromil, it's easy enough as long as the pool only does one thing
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  42 2013-05-30 00:38:31 <phantomcircuit> and that thing is very simple
  43 2013-05-30 00:38:39 <phantomcircuit> rpc calls most definitely are not
  44 2013-05-30 00:39:27 <jaromil> eh eh eh no. asyncronously yours.
  45 2013-05-30 00:40:28 <phantomcircuit> :)
  46 2013-05-30 00:40:32 <jaromil> but then. respect is due to those who challenge the beast. i'll go for some sleep now :)
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  55 2013-05-30 01:03:26 <weex> trying to run 0.8.2 on ubuntu x64 and getting: bitcoind: malloc.c:3096: sYSMALLOc: Assertion `(old_top == (((mbinptr)
  56 2013-05-30 01:03:52 <weex> got that with 0.8.1 as well
  57 2013-05-30 01:04:14 <weex> do i need to update something?
  58 2013-05-30 01:04:43 <warren> weex: official builds? local builds?
  59 2013-05-30 01:04:48 <weex> official
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  61 2013-05-30 01:06:00 <gmaxwell> weex: why didn't you report that previously?
  62 2013-05-30 01:06:19 <weex> gmaxwell: good question
  63 2013-05-30 01:06:32 <weex> i don't have a good answer
  64 2013-05-30 01:06:47 <gmaxwell> OK.
  65 2013-05-30 01:06:47 <sipa> i typically treat "good question" as "i don't know"
  66 2013-05-30 01:06:53 * nsh smiles
  67 2013-05-30 01:07:11 * warren trying newer boost on fedora
  68 2013-05-30 01:07:31 <sipa> what is weex' problem?
  69 2013-05-30 01:07:33 <gmaxwell> In any case, thats malloc corruption, but — it's not clear why you're getting it when other people are not. Can you run bitcoind in gdb and get us a backtrace?
  70 2013-05-30 01:07:43 <gmaxwell> sipa: 17:39 < weex> trying to run 0.8.2 on ubuntu x64 and getting: bitcoind: malloc.c:3096: sYSMALLOc: Assertion `(old_top == (((mbinptr)
  71 2013-05-30 01:07:47 <weex> the full message http://pastebin.com/HveeTpWj
  72 2013-05-30 01:07:52 <da2ce7> 2!~kvirc@opentransactions/dev/da2ce7|ups everyone on the big 0.8.2 release.
  73 2013-05-30 01:07:54 <sipa> ewww that's nasty
  74 2013-05-30 01:07:59 <weex> ok will do
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  76 2013-05-30 01:08:43 <sipa> valgrind is likely even more useful
  77 2013-05-30 01:08:49 <sipa> weex: when do you get that?
  78 2013-05-30 01:09:13 <weex> just trying to start bitcoind
  79 2013-05-30 01:09:22 <weex> on an ubuntu x64 10.04 machine
  80 2013-05-30 01:09:34 <sipa> what is petertodd's timestamper service?
  81 2013-05-30 01:09:34 <nsh> (the valgrind logo is quite lovely, quixotic)
  82 2013-05-30 01:10:29 <gmaxwell> sipa: opentimestamps is the name of it
  83 2013-05-30 01:10:33 <gmaxwell> I dunno where it is.
  84 2013-05-30 01:11:09 <nsh> ( https://github.com/opentimestamps )
  85 2013-05-30 01:11:22 <weex> backtrace: http://pastebin.com/1xuerR22
  86 2013-05-30 01:11:38 <weex> what i got on run: http://pastebin.com/EHBw3z6B
  87 2013-05-30 01:12:28 <sipa> that's not very enlightening...
  88 2013-05-30 01:12:34 <sipa> can you build with debug symbols?
  89 2013-05-30 01:12:36 <weex> heh
  90 2013-05-30 01:13:02 <weex> ok
  91 2013-05-30 01:13:10 * nsh finds it hard to believe that such an ugly assertion would be commonplace
  92 2013-05-30 01:13:41 <nsh> maybe just looks awful because it's expanded from macros or something
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  94 2013-05-30 01:20:51 <sipa> has anyone suggested proofofexistance.com to use that multisig trick for storing hashes?
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  98 2013-05-30 01:24:04 <nsh> multisig trick, sipa?
  99 2013-05-30 01:24:06 <tumak> yeah, burning coins sounds kinda overkill
 100 2013-05-30 01:24:46 <sipa> nsh: use a 1-of-2 multisig output, where one of the pubkeys is real and the other is your data
 101 2013-05-30 01:24:56 * tumak thinks about just putting doc hash into R of sig and calling it a day
 102 2013-05-30 01:25:06 <tumak> bonus, the tx is entirely standard
 103 2013-05-30 01:25:29 tcatm has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
 104 2013-05-30 01:25:37 <nsh> sipa, oh you meant "suggested to proofofexistence.com that they [might/should] use..."?
 105 2013-05-30 01:25:49 tcatm has joined
 106 2013-05-30 01:25:57 <sipa> yes
 107 2013-05-30 01:26:02 <nsh> i misread perhaps as suggesting the use of proofofexistence.com for the purposes of using that multisig trick
 108 2013-05-30 01:26:09 <sipa> oh, no
 109 2013-05-30 01:26:12 <nsh> in any case, i don't know :)
 110 2013-05-30 01:26:17 <gmaxwell> sipa: they didn't appear to have any contact information previously.
 111 2013-05-30 01:26:23 <sipa> damn you, ambiguity in natural languages!
 112 2013-05-30 01:26:28 <nsh> idd :)
 113 2013-05-30 01:26:40 <gmaxwell> What they should actually do is use opentimestamps directly, since its more efficient the more people use it.
 114 2013-05-30 01:26:46 <sipa> gmaxwell: https://www.proofofexistence.com/contact
 115 2013-05-30 01:27:11 <sipa> gmaxwell: or chronobit?
 116 2013-05-30 01:27:24 <sipa> not sure how maintained that is
 117 2013-05-30 01:27:46 <gmaxwell> Chronobit isn't. :(
 118 2013-05-30 01:27:53 resinate has joined
 119 2013-05-30 01:28:16 <warren> I looked into it, but found something else that pays better.
 120 2013-05-30 01:28:20 aurigae has joined
 121 2013-05-30 01:28:56 <sipa> ?
 122 2013-05-30 01:29:31 <warren> sipa: I was wondering working on an easy to use service that would allow anyone to timestamp using chronobit without mining.
 123 2013-05-30 01:29:40 <warren> err, considering*
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 126 2013-05-30 01:31:49 <weex> when i build this, how do i tell it to static link boost? or is it better to just get the 1.4 boost on the machine that's crashing?
 127 2013-05-30 01:32:11 <sipa> 1.4? :o
 128 2013-05-30 01:32:15 <warren> weex: you need to edit the makefile to static link only certain things but not others.  static is currently all or nothing.
 129 2013-05-30 01:32:15 <sipa> ah, 1.40?
 130 2013-05-30 01:32:32 <weex> i was using lucid to build these things for some reason
 131 2013-05-30 01:32:36 <sipa> i have no idea how you even specify selective static linking to gcc?
 132 2013-05-30 01:33:04 <warren> I got it working after 20 tries hacking the makefile, then just realized I was wasting my time and used gitian
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 135 2013-05-30 01:35:08 * nsh (for some reason) pictures (alzheimer's) Reagan from The Simpsons raging at the brick-wall makefile 
 136 2013-05-30 01:35:17 <nsh> warren smash! warren smash!
 137 2013-05-30 01:35:20 <nsh> warren sleepy...
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 164 2013-05-30 02:08:19 <midnightmagic> ...  warren, it's amazing to me that, for you, gitian is easier than a Makefile. :-( You must know haskell.
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 166 2013-05-30 02:09:16 <sipa> for windows builds, gitian is definitely easier (assuming it's already set up)
 167 2013-05-30 02:09:29 <sipa> perhaps even if it isn't
 168 2013-05-30 02:09:46 <warren> midnightmagic: local builds are not easy on fedora
 169 2013-05-30 02:10:03 Mobius_ has joined
 170 2013-05-30 02:10:07 <midnightmagic> warren: I distantly recall your pain, since the last time I tried to do something on CentOS.
 171 2013-05-30 02:10:35 <tumak> warren: use the force
 172 2013-05-30 02:10:39 <tumak> ldd $1|sed 's/^\t\([^ ]*\) => \([^ ]*\).*/\2 \1/g'|grep /usr/lib|xargs -n 2 cp; LD_LIBRARY_PATH=`pwd`; $1
 173 2013-05-30 02:10:42 <tumak> of brute
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 176 2013-05-30 02:12:55 <midnightmagic> I recall being forced to build openssl manually on my centos machine to get ecdsa built-in to it.
 177 2013-05-30 02:13:11 macboz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 178 2013-05-30 02:13:18 <midnightmagic> .. vaguely..
 179 2013-05-30 02:13:23 * sipa haz a solution for that :p
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 181 2013-05-30 02:14:17 <midnightmagic> sipa: One I'm very much looking forward to.
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 183 2013-05-30 02:14:51 <gmaxwell> warren: huh? it's trivial to build on fedora once you have the openssl taken care of. Whats your issue?
 184 2013-05-30 02:15:03 <gmaxwell> 'BOOST_LIB_SUFFIX='-mt' make -j4 -f makefile.unix bitcoind USE_UPNP='
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 186 2013-05-30 02:15:24 <midnightmagic> -j32 !
 187 2013-05-30 02:15:28 * midnightmagic ducks
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 219 2013-05-30 02:48:42 <graingert> gmaxwell: the first 50 bitcoins, those in the genesis block. They're unspendable right?
 220 2013-05-30 02:48:53 <graingert> due to a bug?
 221 2013-05-30 02:49:07 <gmaxwell> graingert: no idea if it was a bug.
 222 2013-05-30 02:49:12 <gmaxwell> But yes, they're unspendable.
 223 2013-05-30 02:49:16 <graingert> why's that?
 224 2013-05-30 02:49:28 <graingert> out by one error?
 225 2013-05-30 02:49:34 <graingert> absolute refusal to pre-mine
 226 2013-05-30 02:49:35 <graingert> ?
 227 2013-05-30 02:49:37 <gmaxwell> Because the code generated the genesis block directly and never inserted that coinbase transaction into the database.
 228 2013-05-30 02:50:01 <graingert> lol?
 229 2013-05-30 02:50:44 <gmaxwell> It may have been a mistake, but otoh, it seems a little unlikely that the code could have been tested at all without noticing that the coins couldn't be spent, unless the genesis block coins used a key that wasn't in any wallet used for testing.
 230 2013-05-30 02:52:19 <warren> gmaxwell: the boost issue
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 238 2013-05-30 02:58:53 <warren> gmaxwell: kill -9 required to exit, need to -salvagewallet often
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 253 2013-05-30 03:26:07 super3 has joined
 254 2013-05-30 03:26:42 <super3> was anyone at the bitpay bitcoin meetup today?
 255 2013-05-30 03:26:58 <Luke-Jr> super3: off-topic
 256 2013-05-30 03:27:51 <super3> yes. slightly...
 257 2013-05-30 03:29:13 swulf--1 has joined
 258 2013-05-30 03:31:03 Neozonz is now known as Disc!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Neozonz
 259 2013-05-30 03:31:35 <super3> so hey, whats up?
 260 2013-05-30 03:32:39 swulf-- has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 261 2013-05-30 03:34:23 <super3> has anyone important taken a look at vhf's commit yet? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2679
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 265 2013-05-30 03:44:31 <sipa> super3: seems sane to me, but i let GUI stuff to people who work on that :)
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 271 2013-05-30 03:49:26 <super3> sipa, who would be the gui people?
 272 2013-05-30 03:51:39 <sipa> wumpus, Diapolo
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 278 2013-05-30 03:59:02 <super3> sipa, also you are awesome
 279 2013-05-30 04:03:18 <owowo> https://www.btproof.com/ <--IsDust() ;o)
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 284 2013-05-30 04:06:38 gigavps has joined
 285 2013-05-30 04:07:13 <gigavps> is there any reason to continue to include coinbaseaux->flags into a pools coinbase transactions?
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 292 2013-05-30 04:11:15 <sipa> owowo: bah, yet another one...
 293 2013-05-30 04:11:48 resinate has joined
 294 2013-05-30 04:12:03 <owowo> exactly, why cant ppl use NMC for thing like this...
 295 2013-05-30 04:12:43 [Author] has joined
 296 2013-05-30 04:14:42 <sipa> or a dedicated side-chain, like chronobit does
 297 2013-05-30 04:14:49 [7] has quit (Disconnected by services)
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 299 2013-05-30 04:15:22 <sipa> which provides A) zero impact on UTXO set  B) strictly bounded O(1)-per-block effect on blockchain size  C) higher granularity
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 334 2013-05-30 05:22:04 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Kinda confusion how github emails come from full names and not usernames, as is displayed on the site
 335 2013-05-30 05:23:32 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|So instead of getting emails from Diapolo, laanwj, and sipa, they come from Philip, Wladimir, and Pieter.
 336 2013-05-30 05:23:42 <sipa> Sorry.
 337 2013-05-30 05:24:14 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Lol, you don't have any reason to apologize
 338 2013-05-30 05:24:42 <sipa> that's why i used a capital and correct punctuation
 339 2013-05-30 05:25:05 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Huh?
 340 2013-05-30 05:25:17 <sipa> for some reason, when used unexpectedly, it seems to convey irony imho :)
 341 2013-05-30 05:26:04 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|Interesting, I tend to just use it automatically in most cases.
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 476 2013-05-30 08:39:56 <Micha> iPhone!~Michagogo@wikia/Michagogo|If anyone cares, that false positive for bitcoin accessing the dyndns ip checker should be fixed shortly. http://i.imgur.com/R3oijur.png
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 523 2013-05-30 09:57:53 <kinlo> is it normal for the keypool reserve to keep going up in debug.log?
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 547 2013-05-30 10:31:52 * BlueMatt just noticed the hash160 hex of his donation address has dead in it
 548 2013-05-30 10:32:01 <BlueMatt> too bad I missed the beef
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 582 2013-05-30 11:13:15 <X-Factor> damnit, I hate it when I get into a coding zone, and look up and realize I've been coding all night and is light out now
 583 2013-05-30 11:16:12 <nsh> worse things happen at sea :)
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 587 2013-05-30 11:21:11 <X-Factor> yes I'm sure that is true, heh
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 591 2013-05-30 11:32:45 <warren> sipa: https://github.com/sipa/secp256k1/commit/561b0e1044efb71edf06f3d27e6a783203238cfa  I'm curious, what is the purpose of this?
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 594 2013-05-30 11:38:07 <nsh> 152 200 }   // FTFY
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 599 2013-05-30 11:51:33 <jgm> Y'know, if people are going to keep attempting to put junk in to the blockchain like btproof how about building something in to the protocol which allows it but accounts for it, for example by setting a value for it and ensuring that the coin comes back to the bitcoin foundation?  You could also create a separate address space for it so that it wouldn't need to clog up UTXO but would still be visible in the blockchain
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 603 2013-05-30 11:56:10 <warren> sipa: has anyone tried secp256k1 on win32 yet?
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 632 2013-05-30 12:38:36 <wallet43> cant we pay mining pools to include some arbitrary data in the coinbase ?
 633 2013-05-30 12:39:38 <nsh> you could also pay a boiler repairman to resuscitate your dead baby; that doesn't make it a good idea
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 638 2013-05-30 12:46:16 <kinlo> wallet43: what data would you want to include?
 639 2013-05-30 12:46:29 <kinlo> wallet43: I'd recommend looking into namecoin to store data in the blockchain
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 656 2013-05-30 13:18:42 <wallet43> mostly porn but also some timestamps
 657 2013-05-30 13:19:20 <wallet43> im thinking of services like https://www.btproof.com/ 
 658 2013-05-30 13:19:56 <wallet43> if they d pay some miners to include the hashes, there would less utxo
 659 2013-05-30 13:20:06 Jasmin68k has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 660 2013-05-30 13:20:41 michagogo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 661 2013-05-30 13:21:52 ericmuyser has joined
 662 2013-05-30 13:23:58 <BlueMatt> like clockwork..."[TEST] This is a test alert..."
 663 2013-05-30 13:24:29 <melvster> wallet43: arbitrary data?
 664 2013-05-30 13:24:51 <MKCoin> These test broadcasts always get my attention immediately, so I guess that's a success
 665 2013-05-30 13:25:27 <BlueMatt> last week's had negative priority so it barely showed up, but today it actually popped up on my desktop
 666 2013-05-30 13:26:09 <eps> non tx related data in the blockchain is a bad idea IMHO
 667 2013-05-30 13:26:19 <MKCoin> I think after the chain fork, everyone is just preparing for some sort of implosion, so it was a bit of a blessing in disguise by increasing alertness
 668 2013-05-30 13:26:49 <wallet43> melvster: well only hashes
 669 2013-05-30 13:27:13 <melvster> wallet43: you can already put hashes in the block chain
 670 2013-05-30 13:27:33 <wallet43> by creating tx
 671 2013-05-30 13:27:46 <melvster> the block chain *IS* a timestamp server
 672 2013-05-30 13:28:04 <melvster> satoshi is very clear about that in his white paper
 673 2013-05-30 13:28:48 <eps> i'm butthurt about 9GB
 674 2013-05-30 13:29:33 <kjj> yes, for loose definitions of "time" and "stamp"
 675 2013-05-30 13:29:34 <melvster> i think he may also have made a forum post about it
 676 2013-05-30 13:30:39 <wumpus> test alert broadcast ftw
 677 2013-05-30 13:30:42 <darsk1ez> and a looser definition of "server"
 678 2013-05-30 13:30:43 <darsk1ez> :)
 679 2013-05-30 13:30:50 Neozonz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 680 2013-05-30 13:30:54 <melvster> lol
 681 2013-05-30 13:31:17 <kjj> it would be better to say that it is an "orderstamping" service
 682 2013-05-30 13:31:37 <melvster> no it wouldnt
 683 2013-05-30 13:31:43 <kjj> as in, bitcoin only has a very crude notion of what time things happen, but a very solid notion of what order they happen in
 684 2013-05-30 13:31:43 p15_ has joined
 685 2013-05-30 13:31:46 <melvster> white paper section 3
 686 2013-05-30 13:31:48 <melvster> 'The solution we propose begins with a timestamp server.'
 687 2013-05-30 13:32:16 <melvster> in fact section 3 is called 'Timestamp server'
 688 2013-05-30 13:32:21 <kjj> I've read the paper.  I'm not arguing aginst it, I'm describing how the system works in reality
 689 2013-05-30 13:34:38 <melvster> as you prefer, im content with satoshi's description ...
 690 2013-05-30 13:34:56 <melvster> but yes
 691 2013-05-30 13:34:57 <kjj> the difference isn't huge
 692 2013-05-30 13:35:07 <melvster> the motivation is to get things in the right order
 693 2013-05-30 13:35:11 <melvster> to prevent double spend
 694 2013-05-30 13:35:26 datagutt has joined
 695 2013-05-30 13:35:51 <melvster> 'In
 696 2013-05-30 13:35:51 <melvster> this paper, we propose a solution to the double-spending problem using a peer-to-peer distributed
 697 2013-05-30 13:35:51 <melvster> timestamp server to generate computational proof of the chronological order of transactions.'
 698 2013-05-30 13:37:18 datagutt has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 700 2013-05-30 13:39:05 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 701 2013-05-30 13:41:09 <kjj> all I'm saying is that the "timestamp server" in the whitepaper is not like any other "timestamp server" that people are familiar with.  for one thing, it is not terribly concerned with time.
 702 2013-05-30 13:42:07 <melvster> 'I like Hal Finney's idea for user-friendly timestamping.  Convert the hash of a file to a bitcoin address and send 0.01 to it' -- Satoshi
 703 2013-05-30 13:42:33 <melvster> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2162.msg28533#msg28533
 704 2013-05-30 13:43:10 <melvster> cc wallet43 ^^
 705 2013-05-30 13:43:43 <kjj> yes, I've actually implemented a timestamping system in exactly that way.
 706 2013-05-30 13:44:06 <melvster> kjj: did you make the bitproof site?
 707 2013-05-30 13:44:24 <kjj> no, I never released mine
 708 2013-05-30 13:44:30 <melvster> ah ok
 709 2013-05-30 13:44:41 <melvster> well you could argue the genesis block is a timestamp hash
 710 2013-05-30 13:45:12 <kjj> yes it is, but, again, only in a very crude sense
 711 2013-05-30 13:45:17 bung23 has quit (Quit: bung23)
 712 2013-05-30 13:45:26 <melvster> i guess the fear is that it's yet another reason to attack bitcoin if you are relying on it to save timestamps... or maybe it's another reason to protect bitcoin!
 713 2013-05-30 13:45:47 <kjj> we can be reasonably sure that bitcoin was released at some time after that headline was published.  but that's all we can really say with certainty
 714 2013-05-30 13:45:55 <melvster> yes
 715 2013-05-30 13:46:01 licnep has joined
 716 2013-05-30 13:46:06 <melvster> and i think it has a huge proof of work there too
 717 2013-05-30 13:46:23 <kjj> heh.  not huge at all by modern standards
 718 2013-05-30 13:46:40 <melvster> true
 719 2013-05-30 13:47:39 <kjj> there has been a lot of speculation around that block, and the early blocks in general.  I followed it, but not carefully enough to come up with a strong opinion on the matter
 720 2013-05-30 13:47:40 <melvster> I dont mean to be contrary, but i know that satoshi worked on that white paper for at least 10 years, so I really see it as a kind of personal bitcoin bible :)
 721 2013-05-30 13:48:20 <kjj> hmm.  most documents that take 10 years to write are far longer.
 722 2013-05-30 13:48:35 <melvster> i suspect he cut some things out :)
 723 2013-05-30 13:49:13 nomailing has quit (Quit: nomailing)
 724 2013-05-30 13:49:40 <eps> you know he worked on it for 10 years?
 725 2013-05-30 13:50:46 Goonie_ has joined
 726 2013-05-30 13:50:56 <melvster> i dont know for sure, but it's something i believe from talking to people that i trust
 727 2013-05-30 13:51:29 <kjj> plenty of people have been interested in electronic cash for 20+ years.  I could see him working on the idea for 10 years.  but I'd be amazed if the paper took more than a week or two to write (once the idea was fully formed)
 728 2013-05-30 13:52:12 <eps> the paper to me seems like something that was written after having written some code
 729 2013-05-30 13:52:28 <kjj> but again, minor disagreement.  it comes down to how you account for the time.  if you want to include idea-work in paper-time, I can't really argue against it other than to say that I disagree
 730 2013-05-30 13:52:36 <eps> trying to get everything straight in his head, before continuing an early version
 731 2013-05-30 13:52:49 <melvster> yes we know he wrote about 18 months of code before releasing the paper, but he was active on the crypto group since at least 1998
 732 2013-05-30 13:53:27 <eps> how do you know that?
 733 2013-05-30 13:53:44 <melvster> as i said, from talking to people i trust
 734 2013-05-30 13:53:50 <eps> uh ok
 735 2013-05-30 13:54:32 <eps> my feeling has always been that he was a relatively young guy, who found the idea of crypto currencies appealing
 736 2013-05-30 13:54:40 <eps> of course i can't prove any of that
 737 2013-05-30 13:54:45 <melvster> agree
 738 2013-05-30 13:54:50 <melvster> well
 739 2013-05-30 13:54:56 <melvster> depends what you mean by young
 740 2013-05-30 13:55:13 <Goonie_> Luke-Jr: Do you have a chart for the 0.8.2 client propagation? I'd like to know how many percent of clients already enforce the new fee rules.
 741 2013-05-30 13:55:40 <eps> like early 20s
 742 2013-05-30 13:55:52 <melvster> dan kaminsky speculated that satoshi was 3-8 quants out of london or new york at the conference
 743 2013-05-30 13:56:11 <eps> i still think he is a single guy
 744 2013-05-30 13:56:21 <melvster> eps: yes me too
 745 2013-05-30 13:56:26 DaQatz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 746 2013-05-30 13:56:35 <melvster> and quants aren't as smart as satoshi
 747 2013-05-30 13:56:49 <nsh> the internet is always telling me that single cryptographic geniuses in my area are looking to meet
 748 2013-05-30 13:57:15 seeingidog__ has joined
 749 2013-05-30 13:57:20 <eps> bitcoin is impressive but it isn't perfect, it's a very left field idea as well, it fits the MO of a lone polymath
 750 2013-05-30 13:57:22 <melvster> nsh: nice ... is that looking to meet without revealing their identity ? :P
 751 2013-05-30 13:57:42 daktak has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
 752 2013-05-30 13:57:45 <kjj> Dan likes to talk out of his ass.  it gained him a bunch of fame during a formative period in his career, and now he doesn't dare stop
 753 2013-05-30 13:57:49 <eps> yeah looking not to meet would be more realistic
 754 2013-05-30 13:57:50 <nsh> they seem to use a revolving stock image system, so it's a safe assumption
 755 2013-05-30 13:57:51 DaQatz has joined
 756 2013-05-30 13:58:09 <melvster> yes I only know of one quant that could have pulled off something like bitcoin and that's Peter Kliedman, but I doubt it's hin
 757 2013-05-30 13:58:11 <melvster> him
 758 2013-05-30 13:58:17 daktak has joined
 759 2013-05-30 13:59:19 <melvster> kjj: lol ... yeah he rubbished bitcoin when he first saw it, now he's a fanboy ... go figure ... he also said proof of work function would not last the end of year with 100% Probability lol ... but he's entertaining, that's for sure!
 760 2013-05-30 14:01:50 seeingidog__ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 761 2013-05-30 14:02:28 <melvster> the 'future of bitcoin' panel was interesting
 762 2013-05-30 14:02:43 <nsh> synopsis?
 763 2013-05-30 14:03:18 <melvster> lots covered https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qdr_Z3hrqQ
 764 2013-05-30 14:03:32 <melvster> fellow traveler is awesome
 765 2013-05-30 14:04:10 mrkent has joined
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 767 2013-05-30 14:04:10 mrkent has joined
 768 2013-05-30 14:04:34 <melvster> he's another one that's been working in this space 10 years
 769 2013-05-30 14:04:38 <melvster> +
 770 2013-05-30 14:04:54 DaQatz has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 771 2013-05-30 14:05:00 gjj has joined
 772 2013-05-30 14:06:36 DaQatz has joined
 773 2013-05-30 14:07:51 <nsh> oh, hmm
 774 2013-05-30 14:08:34 <kjj> wow.  amazon really fucked up their site
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 790 2013-05-30 14:22:30 gjj has joined
 791 2013-05-30 14:23:50 binaryFate has joined
 792 2013-05-30 14:23:55 <binaryFate> hi there
 793 2013-05-30 14:24:41 michagogo has joined
 794 2013-05-30 14:25:04 ericmuyser has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 795 2013-05-30 14:26:11 <BlueMatt> ;;seen Goonie_
 796 2013-05-30 14:26:12 <altgribble> Goonie_ was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 1 week, 2 days, 14 hours, 23 minutes, and 22 seconds ago: <Goonie_> what's the plan for 0.8.2? will there be an additional rc2?
 797 2013-05-30 14:26:21 <BlueMatt> :(
 798 2013-05-30 14:29:39 stalled has joined
 799 2013-05-30 14:29:45 ProfMac has quit (Quit: Page closed)
 800 2013-05-30 14:30:06 <Goonie_> BlueMatt: I'm here
 801 2013-05-30 14:31:16 gjj has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 802 2013-05-30 14:31:42 gjj has joined
 803 2013-05-30 14:31:43 <michagogo> Hmm, someone should fix the topic
 804 2013-05-30 14:32:13 <BlueMatt> oh, hey
 805 2013-05-30 14:33:13 <kjj> nice
 806 2013-05-30 14:33:18 <Goonie_> bluematt: missing " | The cake is a lie" (-:
 807 2013-05-30 14:33:32 <BlueMatt> heh
 808 2013-05-30 14:33:44 <BlueMatt> Goonie_: pm?
 809 2013-05-30 14:33:52 tubby3 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 810 2013-05-30 14:33:55 <Goonie_> sure, can you login jabber?
 811 2013-05-30 14:34:23 <BlueMatt> hmm...I think i have a jabber account on my vps, but I cant get to it from here...
 812 2013-05-30 14:35:13 <nsh> you can create a jabber account with near zero friction using pidgin(+otr)
 813 2013-05-30 14:35:27 <nsh> (it's just a checkbox to create account when entering credentials)
 814 2013-05-30 14:35:46 ericmuyser has joined
 815 2013-05-30 14:36:29 <jouke_> Hmmm, it isn't possible to get the raw transaction of a spent wallet transaction? (I don't keep the full index on that node)
 816 2013-05-30 14:36:55 Prattler has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 817 2013-05-30 14:38:05 <helo> i thought sent and received transactions were stored in wallet.dat
 818 2013-05-30 14:38:50 gfinn has joined
 819 2013-05-30 14:41:36 <jouke_> helo: I thought so too, but raw transaction doesn't return the information.
 820 2013-05-30 14:42:18 <helo> so you can see it in listtransactions, but getrawtransaction doesn't return it?
 821 2013-05-30 14:42:32 BCB is now known as Guest24095
 822 2013-05-30 14:43:02 <helo> jouke_: odd... same behavior here
 823 2013-05-30 14:43:19 <helo> i feel like i've been able to getrawtransaction for my wallet transactions in the past
 824 2013-05-30 14:43:57 <jouke_> +1
 825 2013-05-30 14:48:06 tyn has joined
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 828 2013-05-30 14:48:47 <kjj> if you want to retain that behavior in 0.8+, you need to enable full indexing
 829 2013-05-30 14:48:53 gjj has joined
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 836 2013-05-30 14:51:42 <helo> as long as it was intended :)
 837 2013-05-30 14:52:16 <helo> so the wallet doesn't actually contain the full transaction payload?
 838 2013-05-30 14:52:54 <helo> surely with the growth of my testnet wallet, it must
 839 2013-05-30 14:53:13 <helo> it's nearly as big as MAX_BLOCKSIZE
 840 2013-05-30 14:54:03 gjj has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 841 2013-05-30 14:54:08 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 842 2013-05-30 14:54:19 <jouke_> helo: your wallet is almost 1mb?
 843 2013-05-30 14:54:31 gjj has joined
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 846 2013-05-30 14:55:22 damo22 has joined
 847 2013-05-30 14:55:46 <helo> yes
 848 2013-05-30 14:56:19 <damo22> i have identified an issue that could be detrimental to bitcoin, its just a problem with the client software, nothing major just its compilation
 849 2013-05-30 14:56:33 <helo> damo22: details?
 850 2013-05-30 14:56:36 <kjj> what's the issue?
 851 2013-05-30 14:56:54 <damo22> openssl is not entirely free software
 852 2013-05-30 14:56:59 <damo22> with ECC
 853 2013-05-30 14:57:17 <kaniini> uhh, what?
 854 2013-05-30 14:57:29 <kaniini> oh.  fsf/member
 855 2013-05-30 14:57:39 <kaniini> okay, that explains the lack of sanity.
 856 2013-05-30 14:57:45 <damo22> :)
 857 2013-05-30 14:57:45 seeingidog__ has joined
 858 2013-05-30 14:58:03 <kaniini> i think openssl has greater issues than software freedom
 859 2013-05-30 14:58:08 <kaniini> have you looked at the codebase?
 860 2013-05-30 14:58:14 <kaniini> it is seriously awful
 861 2013-05-30 14:58:37 <damo22> i havent read it just been trying to compile the client
 862 2013-05-30 14:58:45 <damo22> using totally free software
 863 2013-05-30 14:58:59 <kaniini> damo22: i do not believe the ECC code to be any less free than any other component of OpenSSL.
 864 2013-05-30 15:00:25 <kaniini> specifically, all the ECC code has this statement:
 865 2013-05-30 15:00:27 <kaniini>   61  * Portions of the attached software ("Contribution") are developed by
 866 2013-05-30 15:00:28 <kaniini>   62  * SUN MICROSYSTEMS, INC., and are contributed to the OpenSSL project.
 867 2013-05-30 15:00:43 <kaniini> which places it all, in it's entirety, under the same license as OpenSSL itself.
 868 2013-05-30 15:01:05 <damo22> ahh ok
 869 2013-05-30 15:01:15 <kaniini> i.e. BSD license with the 2 additional advertising clauses
 870 2013-05-30 15:01:37 <kaniini> some 'free' distributions disable it because they are afraid it is patented
 871 2013-05-30 15:01:45 <damo22> maybe the version of openssl you have uses the sun code and people compiling bitcoin should use this too
 872 2013-05-30 15:02:11 <kaniini> damo22: the version of openssl i have is just mainline as distributed by them
 873 2013-05-30 15:02:18 <kaniini> damo22: what distribution is this
 874 2013-05-30 15:02:18 Jasmin68k has joined
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 876 2013-05-30 15:02:43 <damo22> uh, its not really a distro so
 877 2013-05-30 15:02:52 <kaniini> damo22: where did your openssl source come from
 878 2013-05-30 15:03:03 ProfMac has joined
 879 2013-05-30 15:03:08 <kaniini> and... further...
 880 2013-05-30 15:03:12 <kaniini> openssl is not free software
 881 2013-05-30 15:03:16 <damo22> i better check
 882 2013-05-30 15:03:17 <kaniini> it has advertising clauses
 883 2013-05-30 15:04:00 <kaniini> (though, i do not understand why bitcoin uses openssl at all.  surely crypto++ would be a better fit?)
 884 2013-05-30 15:04:12 <damo22> i just dont want anyone getting in trouble over some stupid patent
 885 2013-05-30 15:05:55 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 886 2013-05-30 15:06:03 <kaniini> ahh, so the issue is not a matter of software freedom at all, and instead, bullshit
 887 2013-05-30 15:06:05 <kaniini> gotcha.
 888 2013-05-30 15:06:22 <kaniini> damo22: well, i have some bad news for you!
 889 2013-05-30 15:06:36 <kaniini> damo22: bitcoin extensively uses elliptic curve cryptography
 890 2013-05-30 15:06:44 <damo22> in my opinion, i think something as public and important as a p2p distributed cryptocurrency client should not use any non-free software
 891 2013-05-30 15:06:50 <kaniini> well...
 892 2013-05-30 15:06:53 <kaniini> it doesn't!
 893 2013-05-30 15:07:08 <kaniini> i mean
 894 2013-05-30 15:07:10 <kaniini> it uses openssl
 895 2013-05-30 15:07:14 <kaniini> but that's politically non-free
 896 2013-05-30 15:07:28 <damo22> yeah
 897 2013-05-30 15:07:31 <kaniini> either way...
 898 2013-05-30 15:07:39 <kaniini> replacing openssl does not solve your problem
 899 2013-05-30 15:07:41 <kaniini> as, basically
 900 2013-05-30 15:07:46 <kaniini> the entirety of bitcoin crypto
 901 2013-05-30 15:07:48 <kaniini> is ECC
 902 2013-05-30 15:07:58 <kaniini> so, if you do not allow ECC cryptography
 903 2013-05-30 15:08:02 <kaniini> you can't use bitcoin
 904 2013-05-30 15:08:04 <damo22> i realise that,
 905 2013-05-30 15:08:10 <kaniini> then... what's the bug?
 906 2013-05-30 15:08:25 <damo22> which is why i raised the concern
 907 2013-05-30 15:08:37 <kjj> kaniini, you ever think about condensing your sentences into single lines?  :)
 908 2013-05-30 15:08:38 whiterabbit has joined
 909 2013-05-30 15:10:02 <kaniini> damo22: i think that the FSF is making itself obsolete through fighting things this way instead of creating real solutions
 910 2013-05-30 15:10:30 <Vinnie_win> OpenSSL sucks a big fat cock
 911 2013-05-30 15:10:32 <kjj> that's the typical view of people that don't care about software freedom
 912 2013-05-30 15:10:43 <Vinnie_win> Fuck OpenSSL and fuck anyone who programs in C
 913 2013-05-30 15:10:59 <helo> Vinnie_win: i don't want to :(
 914 2013-05-30 15:11:01 altamic has joined
 915 2013-05-30 15:11:07 <damo22> well if the bitcoin client could not be compiled without using a totally closed piece of code, bitcoin could be destroyed by anyone with enough power to buy that code
 916 2013-05-30 15:11:08 <Vinnie_win> It wasn't an imperative foolio
 917 2013-05-30 15:11:18 <kaniini> damo22: uhh
 918 2013-05-30 15:11:20 altamic has left ()
 919 2013-05-30 15:11:22 <kaniini> damo22: but, it's not
 920 2013-05-30 15:11:30 <kjj> FSF takes a hard stance on a single issue, and they stick by it, come hell or high water.  that's laudable, in my opinion.
 921 2013-05-30 15:11:32 <kaniini> damo22: the ECC code in OpenSSL is fully open-source
 922 2013-05-30 15:11:33 <Vinnie_win> Who will help me implement SSL in C++ using cryptopp ?
 923 2013-05-30 15:11:37 <damo22> i know its not, which is a great thing
 924 2013-05-30 15:11:43 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 925 2013-05-30 15:11:43 whiterabbit is now known as wrabbit
 926 2013-05-30 15:11:45 <damo22> i commend you guys on your work
 927 2013-05-30 15:12:06 <kaniini> i do not understand your complaint
 928 2013-05-30 15:12:11 <kaniini> again -- the ECC code in OpenSSL is fully open-source
 929 2013-05-30 15:12:31 <kjj> open source != free software
 930 2013-05-30 15:12:36 <Vinnie_win> You mean to say that ECC is provided under a "permissive license" (i.e. MIT, ISC)
 931 2013-05-30 15:12:48 <Vinnie_win> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permissive_free_software_licence
 932 2013-05-30 15:12:59 <Vinnie_win> Versus GPL which is not a permissive license (but is open source / free)
 933 2013-05-30 15:13:32 <kaniini> Vinnie_win: i can read, modify, and redistribute the source, it is therefore 'open source'.  i did not say it was 'free software'.
 934 2013-05-30 15:13:39 damientrog has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
 935 2013-05-30 15:13:59 <kaniini> Vinnie_win: really, i've been doing this a very long time.  i know what i'm doing.
 936 2013-05-30 15:14:18 porquilho has joined
 937 2013-05-30 15:14:22 <kaniini> kjj: that does not matter.  bitcoin is also not 'free software'
 938 2013-05-30 15:14:30 <porquilho> ;;ticker
 939 2013-05-30 15:14:32 <altgribble> BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 131.49983, Best ask: 131.50000, Bid-ask spread: 0.00017, Last trade: 131.50000, 24 hour volume: 21335.73758034, 24 hour low: 128.01000, 24 hour high: 132.71988, 24 hour vwap: 130.87539
 940 2013-05-30 15:14:47 <Vinnie_win> "open source" includes a lot of different licenses
 941 2013-05-30 15:14:56 <Vinnie_win> GPL is open source as is MIT but only one of them is permissive
 942 2013-05-30 15:15:33 <kaniini> Vinnie_win: for the purposes of conversation though, damo22 is trying to claim the ECC code is not legally kosher
 943 2013-05-30 15:15:47 <kaniini> Vinnie_win: it is, however, legally kosher.  that is what i was trying to convey.
 944 2013-05-30 15:16:03 <kaniini> damo22: i have now checked openssl 0.9.8 as well
 945 2013-05-30 15:16:04 <Vinnie_win> kaniini: I see
 946 2013-05-30 15:16:13 <helo> anyone care to think about (and share) the implications of the work function being a composition of various hash functions, determined in each block by some subset of data from previous blocks (eg hash-of-last-2016-nonces)?
 947 2013-05-30 15:16:19 <kaniini> damo22: all ECC code is under the openssl license itself.
 948 2013-05-30 15:16:22 cjsw3 has joined
 949 2013-05-30 15:16:26 <damo22> i am a fsf associate member, nothing special, neither am i a lawyer, but i want to help make sure bitcoin devs dont get in trouble since there is a lot of money in bitcoin
 950 2013-05-30 15:17:11 <kaniini> damo22: frankly, i would be more concerned about financial patent trolls than anything else with bitcoin
 951 2013-05-30 15:17:20 <helo> is it feasible that even in such a convoluted system, eventually someone could make an asic powerful enough and overpower everyone else?
 952 2013-05-30 15:17:28 <kaniini> helo: Yes
 953 2013-05-30 15:17:41 <kaniini> helo: but, it is not likely.
 954 2013-05-30 15:17:54 <kaniini> helo: as there are other stakeholders working to do the same
 955 2013-05-30 15:18:05 <kaniini> helo: so, any breakthrough like that would be temporary at best
 956 2013-05-30 15:18:06 <kjj> helo: strange hashing systems make difficulty unpredictable
 957 2013-05-30 15:18:14 Truncatem has joined
 958 2013-05-30 15:18:32 <jgarzik> damo22, the patent issue is an old and known issue
 959 2013-05-30 15:18:43 <jgarzik> Fedora distro elides ECDSA from their openssl pkg
 960 2013-05-30 15:19:21 <damo22> jgarzik: thanks, i read your post on one of the old fedora bug things
 961 2013-05-30 15:19:49 <damo22> or was it on a bitcoin forum
 962 2013-05-30 15:20:11 vazakl has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
 963 2013-05-30 15:21:09 <jgarzik> damo22, Most likely, the ECDSA curve used by bitcoin is not under the scary patent zone in EC (but of course Disclaimer: This Is Not An Official Determination By Lawyers)
 964 2013-05-30 15:21:33 <BlueMatt> who actually owns those patents?
 965 2013-05-30 15:21:41 vazakl- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 966 2013-05-30 15:21:46 <kaniini> jgarzik: indeed, secp256k1 curve is public domain
 967 2013-05-30 15:21:53 <kjj> mostly Certicom and the NSA
 968 2013-05-30 15:21:59 <kjj> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECC_patents
 969 2013-05-30 15:22:04 <jgarzik> what kjj said ;p
 970 2013-05-30 15:22:08 <kaniini> NSA patents are public domain
 971 2013-05-30 15:22:18 <kaniini> they have to be under US law
 972 2013-05-30 15:22:23 <damo22> i find it outrageous that a company can own a "curve"
 973 2013-05-30 15:23:14 <kjj> I'm not sure that such a patent has ever been tested
 974 2013-05-30 15:23:16 <kaniini> i agree
 975 2013-05-30 15:23:25 gjj_ has joined
 976 2013-05-30 15:23:44 <kaniini> either way secp256k1 is public domain
 977 2013-05-30 15:23:49 <BlueMatt> hmm, RIM owns them
 978 2013-05-30 15:23:57 <kaniini> (i used it in my ECDSA-CHALLENGE SASL mechanism for this reason)
 979 2013-05-30 15:24:17 <BlueMatt> RIM bought Certicom + multiple others who owned stuff
 980 2013-05-30 15:24:20 <BlueMatt> quite a few others
 981 2013-05-30 15:24:38 <BlueMatt> here's hoping someone "good" buys up RIM's patent portfolio
 982 2013-05-30 15:25:54 <damo22> why cant we just use hyperbolic curves instead
 983 2013-05-30 15:25:58 <damo22> or
 984 2013-05-30 15:26:01 <kaniini> well
 985 2013-05-30 15:26:03 <kaniini> because
 986 2013-05-30 15:26:10 <kaniini> bitcoin already exists
 987 2013-05-30 15:26:25 <kaniini> and you know, changing it, kinda would require starting over from scratch
 988 2013-05-30 15:26:35 <kaniini> maybe you should start a GNU Money
 989 2013-05-30 15:26:47 <damo22> :P
 990 2013-05-30 15:26:51 <kaniini> which uses hyperbolic curves instead
 991 2013-05-30 15:26:58 <kaniini> then stallman can start his own silk-road
 992 2013-05-30 15:27:03 mappum has joined
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 995 2013-05-30 15:27:15 <wumpus> there is gnu cash :p
 996 2013-05-30 15:27:27 <kaniini> "oh, we'll sell -- support -- for those drugs!"
 997 2013-05-30 15:27:55 <damo22> thats funny
 998 2013-05-30 15:28:25 <damo22> thanks for having me here
 999 2013-05-30 15:28:28 stretchwarren has joined
1000 2013-05-30 15:28:38 <kaniini> actually, i don't think bitcoin is compatible with stallman's view of humanity
1001 2013-05-30 15:28:52 <kjj> he seems to think it is
1002 2013-05-30 15:28:57 ProfMac has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1003 2013-05-30 15:28:57 <damo22> kaniini: how so?
1004 2013-05-30 15:28:58 <kaniini> well, he would like to get rid of money in general
1005 2013-05-30 15:29:24 <kaniini> perhaps he sees it as well, "okay, it's money, but it takes control away from the bastards"
1006 2013-05-30 15:29:50 <damo22> i would think he likes the ability to trade things
1007 2013-05-30 15:30:13 <damo22> so he can buy GNU compatible hardware
1008 2013-05-30 15:30:33 <kaniini> damo22: he would prefer a world where things were freely exchanged without the necessity of trade
1009 2013-05-30 15:30:41 <kaniini> or, at least, he did last decade.
1010 2013-05-30 15:31:11 <kaniini> but like many things, i am sure his views evolve too
1011 2013-05-30 15:31:33 <kaniini> and, i have not really kept up with them since giving up on FSF/GNU when they effectively killed DotGNU :P
1012 2013-05-30 15:31:52 Diapolis has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1013 2013-05-30 15:31:58 <jgarzik> anyway
1014 2013-05-30 15:31:59 zer0def has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1015 2013-05-30 15:32:03 <damo22> goodbye
1016 2013-05-30 15:32:04 <nsh> +1
1017 2013-05-30 15:32:07 <jgarzik> since we're merging stuff
1018 2013-05-30 15:32:11 <jgarzik> let's get back on topic
1019 2013-05-30 15:32:34 damo22 has left ()
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1022 2013-05-30 15:36:04 <binaryFate> Which channel should I go for technical questions?
1023 2013-05-30 15:36:27 <kjj> possibly this one.  what's the question?
1024 2013-05-30 15:37:06 <binaryFate> I'm experimenting with addresses, trying to figure out entirely how they are created. I cannot reproduce the example on that page: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Technical_background_of_version_1_Bitcoin_addresses
1025 2013-05-30 15:37:18 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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1027 2013-05-30 15:37:32 <binaryFate> step 2 fails for me. When I SHA-256 the public key, I have something different.
1028 2013-05-30 15:37:53 <kjj> make sure you are working with binary, and not hex.  also, pay attention to which end is which
1029 2013-05-30 15:39:22 Subo1978_ has joined
1030 2013-05-30 15:39:29 <binaryFate> Both input and output are hex, no?
1031 2013-05-30 15:39:53 <kjj> you may want to see them in hex to make your life easier, but the operations all have to happen on the binary version
1032 2013-05-30 15:40:08 Truncatem has joined
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1034 2013-05-30 15:40:45 <kjj> as in, you don't hash the ASCII string "045086...", you hash the 520-bit integer that the string represents
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1036 2013-05-30 15:41:20 <binaryFate> Ok I see... Any idea which module could help me to do it python? I use python-crypto, but don't see anything for binary hashing handling
1037 2013-05-30 15:41:52 <kjj> I don't know python, but the transformation is trivial to write.
1038 2013-05-30 15:42:51 <binaryFate> Yes, but my problem is not converting but that I don't know how to store such large numbers
1039 2013-05-30 15:43:03 Subo1978 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1040 2013-05-30 15:43:17 cris has quit ()
1041 2013-05-30 15:44:03 <binaryFate> I'll figure out, thanks for the anwers :)
1042 2013-05-30 15:44:25 jgillard has joined
1043 2013-05-30 15:44:42 <kjj> according to wikipedia, "the built-in int (3.x) / long (2.x) integer type is of arbitrary precision"
1044 2013-05-30 15:45:33 jgillard has quit (Client Quit)
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1047 2013-05-30 15:47:47 <binaryFate> afaiu, it only means it will use the longest possible type available on the machine, 64bytes on a 64bytes machine for instance. But I might be wrong
1048 2013-05-30 15:49:15 <jgarzik> ok, merged a bunch
1049 2013-05-30 15:49:20 <jgarzik> test test test bitcoin.git HEAD
1050 2013-05-30 15:49:26 <lupine> ...
1051 2013-05-30 15:50:56 ielo has joined
1052 2013-05-30 15:50:58 <kjj> binaryFate: grab a copy of pywallet and see how other people are doing it.  apparently no python users are around here to give you the correct answer
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1060 2013-05-30 15:53:00 <jgarzik> well, https://github.com/jgarzik/python-bitcoinlib/
1061 2013-05-30 15:53:02 <jgarzik> https://github.com/jgarzik/pynode/
1062 2013-05-30 15:53:09 damientrog has joined
1063 2013-05-30 15:55:01 <sipa> warren: the tweaking is the low-level operation needed for type-2 deterministic wallet schemes (includjng bip32)
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1071 2013-05-30 15:56:42 <sipa> Vinnie_win: fwiw, i'm working on a librarg thag efficiently implements secp256k1 math from scratch, so you don't need openssl (the origin reason was better performance though)
1072 2013-05-30 15:57:14 <kaniini> sipa: that is interesting
1073 2013-05-30 15:57:22 <kaniini> sipa: can you do it in straight C?
1074 2013-05-30 15:57:47 <kaniini> if we can make it mimic the openssl API, it could be provided as a dropin replacement for openssls which do not have ECDSA support
1075 2013-05-30 15:58:02 <Diablo-D3> you mean like osx?
1076 2013-05-30 15:58:05 <Diablo-D3> fucking apple >_>
1077 2013-05-30 15:58:43 <sipa> kaniini: it doesn't mimick the openssl api (which is way way overkill for something that only needs one curve), and it is straight C
1078 2013-05-30 15:59:19 <kaniini> sipa: it still interests me, as ecdsa-nist256p-challenge uses secp256k1 obviously
1079 2013-05-30 15:59:21 <kaniini> :)
1080 2013-05-30 15:59:43 <Diablo-D3> sipa, kaniini
1081 2013-05-30 16:00:12 <Diablo-D3> whats the hardest message signing curve out there
1082 2013-05-30 16:00:22 <sipa> kaniini: no it doesn't
1083 2013-05-30 16:00:35 <sipa> nist p256 is secp256R1
1084 2013-05-30 16:00:44 <sipa> https://github.com/sipa/secp256k1/blob/master/include/secp256k1.h
1085 2013-05-30 16:01:08 <sipa> Diablo-D3: there is a standard 521-bit curve (yes, not 512)
1086 2013-05-30 16:01:20 <Diablo-D3> yeah Im aware some curves have weird bits
1087 2013-05-30 16:02:44 <kaniini> oh, right
1088 2013-05-30 16:02:47 <Diablo-D3> also, someones asking me this in another channel, is there something on the wiki that explains how coins are actually transmitted to other people?
1089 2013-05-30 16:02:59 * Diablo-D3 doesnt feel like explaining it to them
1090 2013-05-30 16:03:09 <kaniini> sipa: still your code can be used to implement most of secp256r1 :)
1091 2013-05-30 16:03:17 betterthanwell has joined
1092 2013-05-30 16:03:22 <sipa> kaniini: no
1093 2013-05-30 16:03:37 <sipa> it's very specifically optimized for k1
1094 2013-05-30 16:04:04 <sipa> well you could adapt it of course, but it would not be trivial
1095 2013-05-30 16:04:51 <nsh> jgarzik, what are you current intentions for pynode?
1096 2013-05-30 16:06:21 Truncatem has joined
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1099 2013-05-30 16:07:36 <jgarzik> nsh, full or SPV node
1100 2013-05-30 16:07:51 <nsh> excellent
1101 2013-05-30 16:07:54 <jgarzik> nsh, pynode is ideally a tool that is adaptable to whatever your monitoring etc. needs are
1102 2013-05-30 16:08:07 * nsh nods
1103 2013-05-30 16:08:15 <jgarzik> nsh, Part of the goal is to grow python-bitcoinlib to be "anything bitcoin related, in python"
1104 2013-05-30 16:08:28 <nsh> i think i'll have a look through the code and see if it's accessible enough for me to attempt contributions
1105 2013-05-30 16:08:51 <jgarzik> e.g. ideally I would like pywallet to use python-bitcoinlib
1106 2013-05-30 16:08:55 Truncatem has quit (Client Quit)
1107 2013-05-30 16:09:06 <nsh> this would probably be an easier way of getting to grips with node implementation than studying C++ code until my brain implodes
1108 2013-05-30 16:09:10 <nsh> it makes sense
1109 2013-05-30 16:09:40 <nsh> this was the general sense i got from the future of bitcoin talk
1110 2013-05-30 16:10:07 <nsh>  -- importance of standardizing library code for more secure and facilitated application development
1111 2013-05-30 16:10:17 betterthanwell has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1112 2013-05-30 16:10:23 <roconnor> sipa: I think I'm strongly leaning towards botnets are better than specialized hardware for POW. :)
1113 2013-05-30 16:10:59 <sipa> roconnor: unsure
1114 2013-05-30 16:11:15 <roconnor> sipa: botnets can be fixed; but a hardware mining oligary cannot.
1115 2013-05-30 16:11:36 chmod755 has joined
1116 2013-05-30 16:11:48 albitos has joined
1117 2013-05-30 16:12:07 <sipa> the question is probably ultimately which has the largeat scaling advantage
1118 2013-05-30 16:12:16 <Diablo-D3> yes which means
1119 2013-05-30 16:12:23 <sipa> and that's likely an oligarch
1120 2013-05-30 16:12:24 <Diablo-D3> I need to write DiabloCoin :3
1121 2013-05-30 16:12:26 <roconnor> sipa: really?  You think scaling is the issue?
1122 2013-05-30 16:12:41 <sipa> s/scaling/network effect/
1123 2013-05-30 16:13:05 <roconnor> sipa: I don't quite see what you mean by scaling in this regard.
1124 2013-05-30 16:13:11 <eps> Diablo-D3: let me in on the pre-mine
1125 2013-05-30 16:13:17 sacrelege has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1126 2013-05-30 16:13:37 <sipa> i mean: is there a more-than-linear reward effect for the operator, in function of hashpower
1127 2013-05-30 16:13:59 <rdponticelli> You'll allways have some form of inequality
1128 2013-05-30 16:14:17 <rdponticelli> I guess diversity is good
1129 2013-05-30 16:14:31 <sipa> i don't care about inequality
1130 2013-05-30 16:14:36 <rdponticelli> At least an heterogeneous ecosystem will balance itself
1131 2013-05-30 16:15:08 <rdponticelli> sipa: You don't?
1132 2013-05-30 16:15:11 <roconnor> inequality isn't my concern.  Collusion is my (minor) concern.
1133 2013-05-30 16:15:27 <rdponticelli> Huge inequality is centeralization
1134 2013-05-30 16:15:32 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1135 2013-05-30 16:15:57 <roconnor> sipa: what is the more than linear reward with hardware mining?
1136 2013-05-30 16:16:15 <sipa> the fact that hardware is close to eachother
1137 2013-05-30 16:16:22 <MC1984_> kaminsky seemed pretty sure on himself that sha256 pow is not long for this world
1138 2013-05-30 16:16:23 <sipa> so you can synchronize work
1139 2013-05-30 16:16:35 <sipa> and not compete with yourself
1140 2013-05-30 16:16:37 <MC1984_> actually hes a bit scary when talking
1141 2013-05-30 16:16:56 <sipa> MC1984_: no offence, but i thought he was a nutcase
1142 2013-05-30 16:17:01 <roconnor> MC1984_: kaminsky's comment is what got me thinking about POW again; although I found his prediction laughable.
1143 2013-05-30 16:17:14 <MC1984_> yeah he was......animated
1144 2013-05-30 16:17:29 <MC1984_> hes not a dumbass though
1145 2013-05-30 16:17:30 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 266 seconds)
1146 2013-05-30 16:17:50 <sipa> he is not
1147 2013-05-30 16:18:00 <roconnor> I'm not entirely sure what qualified him to be up on this particular panel though.
1148 2013-05-30 16:18:06 <nsh> the main thing i took away was that a diverse collection of different hashtypes akin to a "basket of currencies" may be a very good thing
1149 2013-05-30 16:18:10 WKNiGHT has joined
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1151 2013-05-30 16:18:17 bitanarchy has joined
1152 2013-05-30 16:18:19 <MC1984_> cos he initially talked so much shit about bitcoin a few years ago?
1153 2013-05-30 16:18:25 <nsh> in the future, not necessarily within bitcoin itself, but as part of the larger digital commodity economy
1154 2013-05-30 16:18:28 <MC1984_> i think he cares about it much more than he wants to let on
1155 2013-05-30 16:18:33 <sipa> but i think he sometimes needs to make outrageous claims
1156 2013-05-30 16:18:37 <sipa> it's his job
1157 2013-05-30 16:18:41 <sipa> or his character
1158 2013-05-30 16:18:46 <bitanarchy> anyone familiar with hardware wallet companies with shares?
1159 2013-05-30 16:18:57 <phantomcircuit> sipa, both
1160 2013-05-30 16:19:10 <phantomcircuit> also i laughed when he said he couldn't hack it
1161 2013-05-30 16:19:13 <roconnor> I've been trying to learn to ignore "expert" predictions.
1162 2013-05-30 16:19:17 <phantomcircuit> cause at the time i was aware of at least 1 serious issue
1163 2013-05-30 16:19:17 Guest86644 is now known as WKNiGHT-
1164 2013-05-30 16:19:23 <phantomcircuit> which has since been fixed of course
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1167 2013-05-30 16:20:34 <roconnor> I seem to recall Bruce Schiender predicted that there would be a collision found in sha-1 within the year ... a few years ago.
1168 2013-05-30 16:21:26 <nsh> the future is notoriously one of hardest segments of time to make accurate predictions about
1169 2013-05-30 16:21:43 <roconnor> sipa: so by closeness you mean avoiding work on a block level that has already been completed but you haven't heard of yet?
1170 2013-05-30 16:21:45 <sipa> lol
1171 2013-05-30 16:21:46 <jgarzik> all my predictions come true
1172 2013-05-30 16:21:54 <sipa> roconnor: yes
1173 2013-05-30 16:21:55 <jgarzik> of course, I only make predictions on obvious, sure things ;p
1174 2013-05-30 16:22:15 Diapolis has joined
1175 2013-05-30 16:22:18 <jgarzik> Dan Kam is backing away from my 10.0 BTC bet, that PoW algo will remain
1176 2013-05-30 16:22:24 <roconnor> sipa: do you really think that delay is signficant?
1177 2013-05-30 16:22:34 <roconnor> jgarzik: *l* good bet.
1178 2013-05-30 16:22:40 <sipa> roconnor: not with current block sizes
1179 2013-05-30 16:22:53 <helo> jgarzik: :D
1180 2013-05-30 16:22:58 <nsh> jgarzik, why is OP_2ROT (in particular) in the python-bitcoinlib TODO? are the other stack opcodes implemented?
1181 2013-05-30 16:23:07 <bitanarchy> what kind of device does bitcoin trezor use?
1182 2013-05-30 16:23:13 <roconnor> sipa: as in larger block sizes will need more validation effort?
1183 2013-05-30 16:23:25 whiterabbit has joined
1184 2013-05-30 16:23:40 <sipa> roconnor: yes, transfer/validation
1185 2013-05-30 16:23:57 <roconnor> sipa: as in one day the amount of time to transfer a block will be dwarfed by the time needed to validate the block?
1186 2013-05-30 16:24:38 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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1188 2013-05-30 16:24:43 <jgarzik> nsh, just last on the list, and nobody seems to use it, so no failed tests ;p
1189 2013-05-30 16:24:49 <roconnor> I now understand your idea about POW demonstrating validation speed.
1190 2013-05-30 16:24:51 <nsh> fair enough
1191 2013-05-30 16:24:59 <jgarzik> nsh, all other working opcodes are implemented -- pynode can already validate mainnet chain, and testnet3 chain
1192 2013-05-30 16:25:00 <nsh> seems a bit abstruse
1193 2013-05-30 16:25:00 <helo> isn't the average amount of time needed to validate a block relatively consistent?
1194 2013-05-30 16:25:10 <jgarzik> nsh, pynode does full verification already
1195 2013-05-30 16:25:10 <nsh> jgarzik, great
1196 2013-05-30 16:25:19 * nsh nods
1197 2013-05-30 16:25:35 <roconnor> helo: it should be proportional to the number of coins spent I would think.
1198 2013-05-30 16:25:45 <roconnor> more technically the number of signatures that need to be checked.
1199 2013-05-30 16:25:51 moore_ has joined
1200 2013-05-30 16:26:39 <nsh> (where time is measured in CPU cycles?)
1201 2013-05-30 16:27:34 <roconnor> nsh: well I'm thinking of validating on a fixed computer, so CPU cycles should be proportional to wall-clock time.
1202 2013-05-30 16:28:11 <nsh> roconnor, there may be other bottlenecks depending on implementation
1203 2013-05-30 16:28:18 seeingidog__ has joined
1204 2013-05-30 16:28:33 <nsh> disk I/O, particularly
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1207 2013-05-30 16:29:39 <bitanarchy> Is anyone from the trezor team here?
1208 2013-05-30 16:30:36 <MC1984_> the hell does trezor mean any way
1209 2013-05-30 16:30:36 <MC1984_> NIN reference?
1210 2013-05-30 16:30:46 <nsh> MC1984_, http://bitcointrezor.com/
1211 2013-05-30 16:30:46 SwedFTP_ has joined
1212 2013-05-30 16:30:46 <bitanarchy> its a hardware wallet
1213 2013-05-30 16:30:49 <nsh> (hardware wallet)
1214 2013-05-30 16:30:55 <MC1984_> i know what it is
1215 2013-05-30 16:31:02 <MC1984_> it has a strange name
1216 2013-05-30 16:31:05 <bitanarchy> it should be open source software...
1217 2013-05-30 16:31:13 <nsh> bitanarchy, i don't recall seeing either of their handles (stick/slush) on irc, but they may use different nicks
1218 2013-05-30 16:32:45 seeingidog__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1219 2013-05-30 16:32:48 <bitanarchy> i am wondering of these hardware wallet devices are already on the market or custom made
1220 2013-05-30 16:33:08 yafujifide has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1221 2013-05-30 16:33:28 <jgarzik> nsh, slush visits #bitcoin-dev
1222 2013-05-30 16:33:37 <nsh> ah, my bad
1223 2013-05-30 16:33:41 <jgarzik> he runs mining.bitcoin.cz
1224 2013-05-30 16:33:45 altamic has joined
1225 2013-05-30 16:34:00 SwedFTP has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1226 2013-05-30 16:34:06 <nsh> right
1227 2013-05-30 16:34:37 altamic has left ()
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1229 2013-05-30 16:35:06 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
1230 2013-05-30 16:35:28 <tumak> MC1984_: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-IxXblfXHs ... this is what trezor means :)
1231 2013-05-30 16:37:22 <TheLordOfTime> bitcoin-qt 0.8.2..
1232 2013-05-30 16:37:23 <TheLordOfTime> stable?
1233 2013-05-30 16:37:32 <TheLordOfTime> like, i won't lose the blockchain or my wallet if i upgrade?
1234 2013-05-30 16:37:40 <TheLordOfTime> BlueMatt:  ^  also make a saucy version for the PPA!
1235 2013-05-30 16:38:26 t7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1236 2013-05-30 16:39:03 bitit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1237 2013-05-30 16:39:36 <MC1984_> why would you lose anything
1238 2013-05-30 16:39:51 <MC1984_> ofc backup that wallet any way
1239 2013-05-30 16:41:55 whiterabbit has joined
1240 2013-05-30 16:42:32 <TheLordOfTime> MC1984_:  because linux has a habit for breaking things :P
1241 2013-05-30 16:42:39 <TheLordOfTime> MC1984_:  at least, sometimes.
1242 2013-05-30 16:42:44 <TheLordOfTime> MC1984_:  fortunately the upgrade went smoothly.
1243 2013-05-30 16:42:53 <TheLordOfTime> ... now if only bluematt would make a build in the PPA for saucy.
1244 2013-05-30 16:43:04 <TheLordOfTime> (yes i'm persesverating, but i know three bitcoiners who use saucy :/)
1245 2013-05-30 16:43:07 <MC1984_> whats saucy
1246 2013-05-30 16:43:12 <TheLordOfTime> ubuntu dev build
1247 2013-05-30 16:43:21 <TheLordOfTime> i'm basically at this point just harassing BlueMatt to do things :P
1248 2013-05-30 16:43:29 <MC1984_> they called it saucy?
1249 2013-05-30 16:43:32 <TheLordOfTime> since his email got lost in the ether so i can't email him like he wants.
1250 2013-05-30 16:43:37 <TheLordOfTime> saucy salamander i think
1251 2013-05-30 16:43:41 <helo> with ubuntu (particularly newest ubuntu) if you're going from self-compiled to a release version, your wallet may be incompatible
1252 2013-05-30 16:43:44 <TheLordOfTime> TBH i prefer numeric designations
1253 2013-05-30 16:44:04 <TheLordOfTime> helo:  which is EXACTLY why BlueMatt needs to launch a 13.10 build onto the PPAs
1254 2013-05-30 16:44:09 <TheLordOfTime> so that upgrades work right :P
1255 2013-05-30 16:44:10 <MC1984_> christ ubuntu
1256 2013-05-30 16:44:10 <MC1984_> how long will it take them to get to "masturbating marsupial"
1257 2013-05-30 16:44:36 <TheLordOfTime> saucy salamander is a better name than "speedy scootaloo" which was also suggested >.>
1258 2013-05-30 16:44:43 <BlueMatt> TheLordOfTime: yes, yes...
1259 2013-05-30 16:44:48 <TheLordOfTime> tbh i want to find the person that recommended that there name so I can beat them with a stick
1260 2013-05-30 16:44:56 damientrog has quit (Quit: damientrog)
1261 2013-05-30 16:44:58 <TheLordOfTime> but that's just because biased against ponies in my ubuntu.
1262 2013-05-30 16:45:03 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1263 2013-05-30 16:45:07 <BlueMatt> I also broke the 0.8.2 uploads for other versions, so only like half got pushed...
1264 2013-05-30 16:45:22 <TheLordOfTime> BlueMatt:  the version for precise works afaict :)
1265 2013-05-30 16:45:32 <nsh> jgarzik, in coredefs.py, what are the magic literals within NETWORKS = { .... }  ?  (for mainnet/testnet3)  doesn't seem to be used
1266 2013-05-30 16:45:37 <TheLordOfTime> ... oh that reminds me, where can i file a feature request for bitcoin-qt?
1267 2013-05-30 16:45:52 <TheLordOfTime> a shouldn't-be-that-hard-to-implement feature request.
1268 2013-05-30 16:46:00 yafujifide has joined
1269 2013-05-30 16:46:04 <kjj> there are no feature requests.  just write the code and submit a pull request
1270 2013-05-30 16:46:06 <chmod755> TheLordOfTime, i guess you could post it on the forums
1271 2013-05-30 16:46:07 <BlueMatt> Ill fix them later today, and do saucy when....I dunno, sometime
1272 2013-05-30 16:46:24 <BlueMatt> maybe Ill be inspired, but Im moving this weekend, so...may not get around to it
1273 2013-05-30 16:46:26 whiterabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1274 2013-05-30 16:46:31 <TheLordOfTime> chmod755:  forums... forums... link?
1275 2013-05-30 16:46:32 <TheLordOfTime> :P
1276 2013-05-30 16:46:34 systemParanoid has joined
1277 2013-05-30 16:46:44 <jgarzik> nsh, certainly they are used.  Look at the definition of NetMagic.  That corresponds to msg_start.  grep for 'msg_start'
1278 2013-05-30 16:46:56 <chmod755> there should be a place where people can offer btc to get a feature implemented or a bug fixed
1279 2013-05-30 16:47:27 <nsh> jgarzik, ah ok, ty
1280 2013-05-30 16:47:41 <kjj> you can do that on the forums (bitcointalk.org) or the dev mailing list.  bounties don't work very well, but you can sure try
1281 2013-05-30 16:48:02 wrabbit has joined
1282 2013-05-30 16:48:32 <jgarzik> indeed
1283 2013-05-30 16:49:01 nus has joined
1284 2013-05-30 16:49:10 <jgarzik> Just about the only bounties that work are stupidly large bounties for quick work
1285 2013-05-30 16:49:22 ProfMac has joined
1286 2013-05-30 16:50:02 <kjj> also, unless you write software yourself, you should never attempt to estimate the effort required for a feature.
1287 2013-05-30 16:50:06 <jgarzik> Problems common to bounties: unclear specifications, how to resolve multiple independent competitors, ...
1288 2013-05-30 16:50:42 moore_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1289 2013-05-30 16:51:23 jspilman has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1290 2013-05-30 16:51:51 <kjj> now I'm curious though.  what feature do you want?
1291 2013-05-30 16:52:12 roconnor_ has joined
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1294 2013-05-30 16:52:32 * nsh read yesterday some of the bitcointalk "give us better forum software" bounty thread (no particular progress after one year and (today's) 5 million USD offering
1295 2013-05-30 16:52:59 iwilcox has joined
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1297 2013-05-30 16:53:00 iwilcox has joined
1298 2013-05-30 16:53:02 <nsh> proof of coding work (in terms of timestamped coffee stains) should be marked to market
1299 2013-05-30 16:53:19 <chmod755> timestamped coffee stains???
1300 2013-05-30 16:53:35 <jgarzik> hah
1301 2013-05-30 16:53:38 <helo> if escrow was used for that bounty, surely there would be progress at this point
1302 2013-05-30 16:54:01 <jgarzik> see above.  even with funds in hand, bounties can be problematic.
1303 2013-05-30 16:54:05 <kjj> theymos IS escrow
1304 2013-05-30 16:54:50 Neozonz has joined
1305 2013-05-30 16:54:52 <jgarzik> How to resolve multiple people who want to working on feature X?  (obviously there are solutions, but people may not be able to agree amicably)  For a non-programmer, it is difficult to even write a specification that CLEARLY defines the conditions to claim the bounty.
1306 2013-05-30 16:55:11 <chmod755> helo, .... and maybe when someone agrees to work on it, it should be locked. and there has to be some progress otherwise it should be open for anyone again....
1307 2013-05-30 16:56:02 <helo> that sounds like a decent idea
1308 2013-05-30 16:56:48 <kjj> this topic was discussed extensively at the conference
1309 2013-05-30 16:57:34 <kjj> at one point, Mike, Yifu and a couple of others were discussing it at length and were unable to come up with a workable bounty system
1310 2013-05-30 16:58:09 <nsh> you could probably overlay a bounty system onto a set of unit tests using as a customization to a versioning system. but it would require significant up-front work
1311 2013-05-30 16:58:14 <kjj> If I recall, they decided to find competent programmers and offer them contract work
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1315 2013-05-30 17:00:07 <kjj> it isn't that bounties can't work, or haven't worked occasionally in the past.  the problem is that they are just not a good model for doing anything serious
1316 2013-05-30 17:00:55 Grishnakh has joined
1317 2013-05-30 17:00:56 <jgarzik> Bounties are the lazy person's way to do contracting
1318 2013-05-30 17:01:13 <jgarzik> People have money, but don't want to spend the time putting together a formal spec, finding people to do the work, etc.
1319 2013-05-30 17:01:55 <tumak> when you have to think things like formal spec its a lost cause already
1320 2013-05-30 17:02:01 <kjj> Jerry Pournelle is a big advocate of bounties for government work, but those in general have less of a specification problem than software
1321 2013-05-30 17:02:10 <tumak> i can imagine bounties work only among more or less peers
1322 2013-05-30 17:02:17 <tumak> where one outsources to another because of lack of time
1323 2013-05-30 17:02:27 <jgarzik> well there are varying definitions of "formal"  ;-)
1324 2013-05-30 17:02:50 <jgarzik> A big problem with bounties in the past is an unclear spec.  Person does some work, wants the money, and then the bounty offer-er says the job is not done
1325 2013-05-30 17:02:51 robocoin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1326 2013-05-30 17:03:00 <tumak> kjj: tendering process is a bit different beast though
1327 2013-05-30 17:03:09 <tumak> jgarzik: aka "client from hell syndrome"
1328 2013-05-30 17:03:16 <tumak> changing their mind continously etc :)
1329 2013-05-30 17:03:18 <eps> jgarzik: that is the big problem with all software development
1330 2013-05-30 17:03:19 robocoin has joined
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1332 2013-05-30 17:03:19 robocoin has joined
1333 2013-05-30 17:03:26 <eps> jgarzik: heard of the software crisis?
1334 2013-05-30 17:03:41 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
1335 2013-05-30 17:03:42 <jgarzik> eps: Yes.  It's called the Satoshi codebase
1336 2013-05-30 17:04:20 <eps> jgarzik: 70% of all large IT projects either aren't delivered, deliver partially or go over budget
1337 2013-05-30 17:04:35 * tumak calls bullshit
1338 2013-05-30 17:04:53 <tumak> eps: s/IT projects/government IT projects/
1339 2013-05-30 17:05:34 <kjj> Meh.  that sounds about right to me, even without the government qualifier
1340 2013-05-30 17:05:35 Tantadruj has joined
1341 2013-05-30 17:05:39 <eps> yeah
1342 2013-05-30 17:05:47 <eps> good software stands out
1343 2013-05-30 17:05:55 <yubrew> if you could create tests against the bounty, that could help
1344 2013-05-30 17:05:56 <eps> like iOS and android
1345 2013-05-30 17:06:08 <yubrew> unit, functional, integration
1346 2013-05-30 17:06:13 <eps> everyone is like "oh wow, software doesn't have to be crappy?"
1347 2013-05-30 17:06:56 <eps> i am not a blanket fan of agile, but the one thing i like about it is rapid prototyping and regularly shipping code
1348 2013-05-30 17:06:57 MobPhone has joined
1349 2013-05-30 17:07:07 <tumak> yubrew: if the bounty issuer is actually capable of unit tests, there are rarely problems with such arrangements
1350 2013-05-30 17:07:12 <eps> it's the only way i can see that keeps on top of technical debt
1351 2013-05-30 17:07:19 <tumak> shit hits the fan when coder meets clueless client from hell
1352 2013-05-30 17:07:28 brson has joined
1353 2013-05-30 17:07:38 <yubrew> tumak fair enough haha
1354 2013-05-30 17:07:41 <kjj> on the other hand, writing software to satisfy tests is rarely more difficult than just writing the tests in the first place
1355 2013-05-30 17:08:02 raad287 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1356 2013-05-30 17:08:28 <eps> kjj: yeah often when creating an API, writing the tests takes longer because it forces you to think about how it will be used
1357 2013-05-30 17:08:59 <tumak> well, unit tests check only small components of the project
1358 2013-05-30 17:09:06 <tumak> to "test" it as large, you actually use regression tests
1359 2013-05-30 17:09:18 <tumak> ie collected cases from past which segfaulted your app
1360 2013-05-30 17:09:45 <yubrew> don't really know testing well
1361 2013-05-30 17:10:06 <yubrew> only familiar with web app testing (e.g. unit, functional, integration, behavioral)
1362 2013-05-30 17:11:27 <tumak> hm, webdesign ut?
1363 2013-05-30 17:11:31 <tumak> you mean like, uh, acid test? :)
1364 2013-05-30 17:11:54 <yubrew> don't know what acid is, but sounds like a hell of a drug :)
1365 2013-05-30 17:12:10 <tumak> http://acid3.acidtests.org/
1366 2013-05-30 17:12:13 <tumak> it shows how high you are :)
1367 2013-05-30 17:13:19 <jgarzik> web app testing?  Is this #php-user-dev?  :)
1368 2013-05-30 17:13:36 <tumak> jgarzik: of course
1369 2013-05-30 17:13:43 bitanarchy has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1370 2013-05-30 17:13:49 <tumak> you test if your web design is pixel-exact across browsers!
1371 2013-05-30 17:13:55 damientrog has joined
1372 2013-05-30 17:14:13 <yubrew> looking for something small to do on bitcoin
1373 2013-05-30 17:14:25 binaryFate has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1374 2013-05-30 17:14:32 <yubrew> catch is, i know languages that are irrelevant to bitcoin atm haha
1375 2013-05-30 17:14:36 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
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1382 2013-05-30 17:21:13 daktak has joined
1383 2013-05-30 17:25:46 <Luke-Jr> Goonie_: not specifically for 0.8.2, no
1384 2013-05-30 17:28:19 digitalmagus2 has joined
1385 2013-05-30 17:28:48 <owowo> was gribble hacked?
1386 2013-05-30 17:28:49 seeingidog__ has joined
1387 2013-05-30 17:29:00 FredEE has joined
1388 2013-05-30 17:30:15 seeingidog__1 has joined
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1390 2013-05-30 17:30:56 <nsh> owowo, what makes you ask?
1391 2013-05-30 17:31:27 <owowo> there is a altgribble in #bitcoin-analysis
1392 2013-05-30 17:31:30 moore_ has joined
1393 2013-05-30 17:31:41 <owowo> <forgot> ;;bc,stats
1394 2013-05-30 17:31:41 <owowo> <altgribble> forgot: lolol r00t wuz hurr
1395 2013-05-30 17:31:54 <owowo> doing things like this
1396 2013-05-30 17:32:20 <runeks_> Is there a way to limit the memory usage of bitcoind?
1397 2013-05-30 17:32:28 <nsh> runeks_, rlimit
1398 2013-05-30 17:32:57 <sipa> lol
1399 2013-05-30 17:33:16 <sipa> "is there a way to secure my computer from hackers?" - "unplug ethernet cable"
1400 2013-05-30 17:33:25 <owowo> true
1401 2013-05-30 17:33:28 <sipa> runeks_: not in any way you'd like
1402 2013-05-30 17:33:32 <runeks_> :(
1403 2013-05-30 17:33:42 <sipa> runeks_: which version are you running?
1404 2013-05-30 17:33:45 <runeks_> It gets killed consuming 572740kB of memory.
1405 2013-05-30 17:33:56 <nsh> that's like half a facebook tab
1406 2013-05-30 17:34:07 <runeks_> sipa: 0.8.1
1407 2013-05-30 17:34:11 <sipa> try 0.8.2
1408 2013-05-30 17:34:18 <sipa> memory usage is reduced significantly
1409 2013-05-30 17:34:23 <sipa> especially with many network connections
1410 2013-05-30 17:34:38 <sipa> though i can't promise it will stay under 500 MB
1411 2013-05-30 17:35:04 <runeks_> sipa: Cool. I'll try that. I don't think it has any network connections at that point though. It should be busy building blockchain/UTXO index.
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1414 2013-05-30 17:38:54 <yubrew> runeks_ i found increasing the swap also worked
1415 2013-05-30 17:39:09 <runeks_> yubrew: Is it fast enough then?
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1419 2013-05-30 17:40:13 <yubrew> fast in what way?
1420 2013-05-30 17:40:39 <runeks_> yubrew: Are you running bitcoind on the Raspberry Pi?
1421 2013-05-30 17:40:49 <yubrew> no i am not haha
1422 2013-05-30 17:40:55 <runeks_> Ok.
1423 2013-05-30 17:41:00 <yubrew> i'm running on a micro instance of ec2
1424 2013-05-30 17:41:04 <runeks_> That's my plan.
1425 2013-05-30 17:41:08 <runeks_> yubrew: How much RAM?
1426 2013-05-30 17:41:15 <yubrew> 500mb
1427 2013-05-30 17:41:23 <yubrew> try upgrading
1428 2013-05-30 17:41:24 <yubrew> first
1429 2013-05-30 17:41:32 <runeks_> Upgrading what?
1430 2013-05-30 17:41:38 <runeks_> Oh bitcoind?
1431 2013-05-30 17:41:45 <yubrew> 0.8.2
1432 2013-05-30 17:41:49 <yubrew> but i think increasing swap is a more permanent solution
1433 2013-05-30 17:42:14 <yubrew> do you have a compiler error?
1434 2013-05-30 17:42:27 <nsh> (starting your conference talk by reading a massive wall of text in a dull monotone: not commonly advised :/)
1435 2013-05-30 17:42:28 testnode9 has joined
1436 2013-05-30 17:42:34 <yubrew> something like this: 'internal compiler error: Killed (program cc1plus)'
1437 2013-05-30 17:42:34 <runeks_> Yeah I'm building 0.8.2 now.
1438 2013-05-30 17:42:39 <nsh> (re: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Od4tV88oR8&list=PLUOP0P68GJ3BGjfqoLLnzAefk3ZzXQtJ7 )
1439 2013-05-30 17:42:51 <runeks_> yubrew: I'm cross compiling it on my x86 system. So it's fine.
1440 2013-05-30 17:42:55 runeks_ is now known as runeks
1441 2013-05-30 17:42:56 <yubrew> ah ok
1442 2013-05-30 17:43:02 <kjj> generally, compiling takes more memory than running
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1444 2013-05-30 17:43:08 <runeks> But I've seen that error before when building on the Pi.
1445 2013-05-30 17:43:19 <TheLordOfTime> yubrew:  how much data usage does bitcoind have on that ec2 micro instance?
1446 2013-05-30 17:43:25 <runeks> kjj: Especially when you have a single file with 12MB C++ code like Armory does :)
1447 2013-05-30 17:43:44 <TheLordOfTime> and CPU usage, too... :P
1448 2013-05-30 17:43:48 testnode9 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1449 2013-05-30 17:43:54 <yubrew> haha, yes i compiled the damn thing on a micro.. not the best of ideas
1450 2013-05-30 17:44:00 <yubrew> https://gist.github.com/yubrew/5572930
1451 2013-05-30 17:44:07 testnode9 has joined
1452 2013-05-30 17:44:11 <kjj> I keep an ancient box running, and somewhere around 0.6 or 0.7 I had to upgrade it from 512MB to 1GB otherwise the compiles would take days to finish
1453 2013-05-30 17:44:11 <yubrew> this is what i did to increase swap, and it worked fine afterwards
1454 2013-05-30 17:45:24 <runeks> yubrew: Yeah I had to do that too when building Armory. But I'd really prefer to not have to use a swap file. The Pi is slow enough as it is :\
1455 2013-05-30 17:45:38 <runeks> Got 0.8.2 built. Gonna try it out now.
1456 2013-05-30 17:45:51 <yubrew> let us know how it goes
1457 2013-05-30 17:46:15 stalled has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1458 2013-05-30 17:46:45 <kjj> well, I'm out for a week again.  feels like I just got back to work after the bitcoin conference, and now I'm off to a work conference
1459 2013-05-30 17:46:50 richcollins has joined
1460 2013-05-30 17:47:47 <runeks> yubrew: Will do.
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1480 2013-05-30 18:06:53 <dansmith_btc> Hi, I'm generating pub/priv key using https://github.com/weex/addrgen It gives me a priv key like L4C1FUabYPBRJ8pBzzqtxuhGPT89adyA9mZqAVuJ6n1rkYB562b9 . I need to convert it to WIF, so I need to know what is the name of such a priv key format?
1481 2013-05-30 18:07:01 Habbie has left ()
1482 2013-05-30 18:07:11 <sipa> dansmith_btc: it _is_ WIF
1483 2013-05-30 18:07:12 Skav has joined
1484 2013-05-30 18:07:26 <sipa> if your client rejects it, it means they don't support compressed pubkeys
1485 2013-05-30 18:07:33 <dansmith_btc> sipa, why doesnt it start with "5"?
1486 2013-05-30 18:07:49 <sipa> because only WIF privkeys for uncompressed pubkeys start with 5
1487 2013-05-30 18:08:11 <sipa> and converting 9though trivial) it doesn't make sense, as that would change the associated address
1488 2013-05-30 18:09:16 MobPhone has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1489 2013-05-30 18:09:28 <dansmith_btc> blockchain.info requires uncompressed apparently Method: importprivkey
1490 2013-05-30 18:09:28 <dansmith_btc> Parameters: (String privateKey)
1491 2013-05-30 18:09:28 <dansmith_btc> Description: Import a private key into your bitcoin wallet. Private key must be in wallet import format (Sipa) beginning with a '5'.
1492 2013-05-30 18:10:02 <gmaxwell> dansmith_btc: welp, sounds like blockchain.info is really limited, you should nag your vendor to fix their support
1493 2013-05-30 18:10:19 <gmaxwell> dansmith_btc: it's not possible to meaninfully 'convert' that.
1494 2013-05-30 18:10:39 <gmaxwell> It's alread in WIF and the site you are using apparently doesn't convert the type of key it is.
1495 2013-05-30 18:10:49 <sipa> s/convert/support/
1496 2013-05-30 18:11:02 <gmaxwell> right.
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1498 2013-05-30 18:11:22 <sipa> wow, i didn't know b.i didn't even support compressed pubkeys
1499 2013-05-30 18:11:40 <dansmith_btc> is there a python function which generates pub/uncompressed priv key pair?
1500 2013-05-30 18:12:18 <sipa> i'm sure there are many, but you really shouldn't be using uncompressed keys anymore :(
1501 2013-05-30 18:12:43 <sipa> (i know, compatibility with certain sites is a good reason, but please get them to support compressed ones instead...)
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1503 2013-05-30 18:13:08 <dansmith_btc> sipa, if b.i uses bitcoind which accepts WIFs by defult, why would they change that to uncompressed?
1504 2013-05-30 18:13:27 <sipa> they're not using bitcoind
1505 2013-05-30 18:13:43 <dansmith_btc> ok
1506 2013-05-30 18:13:50 <gmaxwell> It's really troubling that popular services aren't keeping up with bitcoin ecosystem changes from, what, 2 years ago?
1507 2013-05-30 18:13:50 <sipa> at least not for their wallet implementation
1508 2013-05-30 18:13:58 <tumak> some lovely tracebacks now and then indicate something java based
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1510 2013-05-30 18:14:28 <jgarzik> "If It Aint Broke Dont Fix It" status quo momentum is powerful
1511 2013-05-30 18:14:40 <jgarzik> plus I imagine blockchain.info guy is busy making double-spend gadgets
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1513 2013-05-30 18:15:02 <sipa> Date:   Mon Nov 21 02:46:28 2011 +0100
1514 2013-05-30 18:15:02 <sipa> Compressed pubkeys
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1516 2013-05-30 18:15:51 <petertodd> Heh, reminds me, I still need to check that the double-spend gadget really works as requested, so I can give piuk his reward. (or not)
1517 2013-05-30 18:16:05 <jgarzik> https://blockchain.info/create-double-spend
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1520 2013-05-30 18:17:41 <gmaxwell> okay, not _quite_ two years ago.
1521 2013-05-30 18:17:52 <TheLordOfTime> found an upgrade bug.
1522 2013-05-30 18:18:09 <TheLordOfTime> it autoresets the tx fee to 0.001 rather than whatever you have set (I have 0.0005)
1523 2013-05-30 18:18:35 <TheLordOfTime> ooh and it won't accept anything under  0.001
1524 2013-05-30 18:18:53 <sipa> huh?
1525 2013-05-30 18:18:57 <sipa> where?
1526 2013-05-30 18:19:03 <TheLordOfTime> in bitcoin-qt
1527 2013-05-30 18:19:08 <TheLordOfTime> after-upgrade weirdness...
1528 2013-05-30 18:19:21 <sipa> can you be a bit more specific
1529 2013-05-30 18:19:29 <sipa> in the settings screen?
1530 2013-05-30 18:19:41 Skav has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1531 2013-05-30 18:19:42 <petertodd> Also, speaking of, I'm seeing hundreds of replacements on my replace-by-fee node that fail due to either not enough additional fees, or the outputs of the replaced tx already being spent. (child-pays-for-parent isn't implemented yet) Any idea where that's coming from?
1532 2013-05-30 18:19:44 <TheLordOfTime> sipa:  there's a discrepancy between the settings screen and actually sending a transaction
1533 2013-05-30 18:19:49 <petertodd> I doubt it's intentional.
1534 2013-05-30 18:19:50 <TheLordOfTime> sipa:  i have the TX fee set to 0.0005
1535 2013-05-30 18:19:53 <owowo> https://blockchain.info/create-double-spend <-- WTF is this if I may ask
1536 2013-05-30 18:19:57 <TheLordOfTime> sipa:  it's saying the TX fee is 0.001
1537 2013-05-30 18:19:59 <sipa> TheLordOfTime: the setting is per kilobyte
1538 2013-05-30 18:20:01 <TheLordOfTime> discrepancy in settings.
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1540 2013-05-30 18:20:18 <TheLordOfTime> sipa:  and a 0.012BTC transaction is *more* than a kilobyte?
1541 2013-05-30 18:20:23 <TheLordOfTime> there's only one address with any funds...
1542 2013-05-30 18:20:28 <sipa> TheLordOfTime: irrelevant
1543 2013-05-30 18:20:37 <sipa> it depends on how many input coins it has to consume
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1545 2013-05-30 18:20:50 <sipa> if you received tons of tiny transactions to construct it from, it will be a large transaction
1546 2013-05-30 18:21:00 <sipa> whether they are sent to the same or different addresses is not relevant
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1550 2013-05-30 18:21:13 <kaniini> owowo: it attempts to create a double-spend transaction
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1552 2013-05-30 18:21:33 <jgarzik>         "version" : 32400,
1553 2013-05-30 18:21:33 <jgarzik>         "subver" : "",
1554 2013-05-30 18:21:33 <jgarzik>         "inbound" : false,
1555 2013-05-30 18:21:33 <jgarzik>         "startingheight" : 238721,
1556 2013-05-30 18:21:36 <TheLordOfTime> sipa: then IMHO there needs to be a way to easily show that in the "Send money" screen, or to show "Approximate minimum-needed tx fee:" in the window.
1557 2013-05-30 18:21:39 <owowo> hm, I just hope the attemps fail
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1559 2013-05-30 18:21:45 <jgarzik> when are we gonna knock those ancient nodes off the network?
1560 2013-05-30 18:21:46 <jgarzik> :)
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1562 2013-05-30 18:22:18 <petertodd> owowo: It broadcasts two different tx's simultaniously (allegedly) so by definition it succeeds...
1563 2013-05-30 18:22:34 <sipa> jgarzik: i'm impressed they are keeping up
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1565 2013-05-30 18:25:36 <Diablo-D3> https://blockchain.info/create-double-spend
1566 2013-05-30 18:25:37 <Diablo-D3> olwhat
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1568 2013-05-30 18:26:48 <owowo> so, I would understand it, like if they allegedly succeed they can spend one coin twice, that's kind of suboptimal
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1570 2013-05-30 18:27:22 <sipa> TheLordOfTime: iirc there is a pull request for that
1571 2013-05-30 18:27:41 <sipa> TheLordOfTime: it's sort-of nontrivial, as the size of the transaction is only known after constructing it
1572 2013-05-30 18:27:50 <kaniini> owowo: it is a timing attack basically
1573 2013-05-30 18:27:54 <sipa> TheLordOfTime: but i don't keep up with all gui stuff
1574 2013-05-30 18:28:09 <kaniini> owowo: it will be solved soon
1575 2013-05-30 18:28:25 <Diablo-D3> hey sipa, are gen tx signed?
1576 2013-05-30 18:28:25 <kaniini> /buffer 9
1577 2013-05-30 18:28:28 <TheLordOfTime> sipa:  is there a feature request for adding a way to easily see each address' balance in the "Receive" window?  because i know there's a console command to get that data, to show the balance in the Receive window shouldn't be *that* hard...
1578 2013-05-30 18:28:40 <TheLordOfTime> you know, while you're thinking about it :P
1579 2013-05-30 18:28:42 <sipa> TheLordOfTime: addresses do not have a balance
1580 2013-05-30 18:28:54 <sipa> TheLordOfTime: at least not in the abstraction provided by the reference wallet
1581 2013-05-30 18:29:13 <TheLordOfTime> sipa:  then what's `listaccounts` do, when it shows the balance of bitcoins for each labeled address in the wallet?
1582 2013-05-30 18:29:14 <petertodd> owowo, kaniini: No, the idea is you create one transaction that pays the merchant, and the other doesn't, both spending the same coins. The merchant sees the payment half the time. If they do, you get the goods and run, yet you only wind up actually paying half the time because the mining power is split between the two versions.
1583 2013-05-30 18:29:30 <sipa> TheLordOfTime: it lists the balance of accounts, which have almost nothing to do with addresses
1584 2013-05-30 18:29:34 <petertodd> owowo, kaniini: We don't have any double-spend notification, so right now that attack works fairly well.
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1586 2013-05-30 18:31:20 <kaniini> petertodd: time to shit some blocks? ;)
1587 2013-05-30 18:31:56 <petertodd> kaniini: ?
1588 2013-05-30 18:32:08 <kaniini> i was making a bad pun
1589 2013-05-30 18:32:13 <owowo> shall I dump my coins and run now, or go down with the ship? ;o)
1590 2013-05-30 18:32:14 <kaniini> nevermind me!
1591 2013-05-30 18:32:33 jgarzik has quit (Quit: sail away, go Hawaiian. test test test. merge merge merge.)
1592 2013-05-30 18:32:55 <petertodd> owowo: As always, wait for at least 1 confirmation and you are safe. Zero-conf transactions are not secure.
1593 2013-05-30 18:33:45 <owowo> ya, that's not very new, so I stay afloat with the ship.
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1595 2013-05-30 18:34:29 <petertodd> owowo: Heh, good you understand that.
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1599 2013-05-30 18:37:43 <owowo> And then it is not a double spend. Just one coin that is send to two addresses, and in the end one coin ends up in one of the two addresses, that's not a double spend.
1600 2013-05-30 18:38:03 <sipa> within one chain, double spends never occur
1601 2013-05-30 18:38:34 <sipa> the term "double spend" only applies to the case where two receivers both accept a conflicting payment
1602 2013-05-30 18:40:43 <petertodd> Note that by "accept" we aren't talking about something technical, we mean they accept the payment as valid and do something in exchange for it, like give you the MP3's you just purchased.
1603 2013-05-30 18:40:50 <sipa> ^
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1606 2013-05-30 18:41:12 <sipa> it's more a double accept then a double spend :)
1607 2013-05-30 18:41:20 <sipa> *than
1608 2013-05-30 18:41:25 <kaniini> yes, it eventually cancels out
1609 2013-05-30 18:41:25 <owowo> exactl1y
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1614 2013-05-30 18:41:42 <kaniini> but, the question is: does it cancel out before goods are shipped?
1615 2013-05-30 18:42:00 <sipa> and if it does, is the shipment cancelled too? :p
1616 2013-05-30 18:42:17 <petertodd> On the Bitcoin blockchain, yes. Although a lot of clients don't show double-spends properly, for instance Bitcoin-QT just shows the transaction as forever unconfirmed.
1617 2013-05-30 18:42:27 <petertodd> Same with blockchain.info sometimes.
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1619 2013-05-30 18:43:23 <petertodd> kaniini: Indeed, which is why for a *lot* of applications "accepting" a zero-conf transaction is perfectly acceptable. Shipping departments don't drop the package in the truck instantly.
1620 2013-05-30 18:43:46 <Scrat> when the fork happened b.i was showing a transaction I received as unconfirmed for about 20 days
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1622 2013-05-30 18:43:50 <Scrat> then it disappeared
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1624 2013-05-30 18:43:57 <kaniini> Scrat: doublespend
1625 2013-05-30 18:44:00 <kaniini> probably
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1628 2013-05-30 18:45:50 <Scrat> is that double spend on b.i a <0.8.1 exploit?
1629 2013-05-30 18:45:54 <Scrat> or just a regular double spend
1630 2013-05-30 18:46:25 <Scrat> (as in sending two conflicting transactions to 2 different nodes)
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1637 2013-05-30 18:51:19 <nsh> latter, i'd expect, Scrat
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1712 2013-05-30 20:23:08 <dansmith_btc> Did I understand it correctly that I cannot derive the uncompressed priv key (starts with a '5') from a compressed one (starts with an 'L')?
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1714 2013-05-30 20:23:21 <sipa> you can, but it's not useful
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1716 2013-05-30 20:24:00 <sipa> as it corresponds to a different address, having one will not allow you to spend coins sent to address corresponding to the other
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1720 2013-05-30 20:25:26 <dansmith_btc> sipa, OK I understand now. I'm really struggling to find code for creating an uncompressed priv key.
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1725 2013-05-30 20:26:14 <sipa> why do you want to?
1726 2013-05-30 20:26:25 <sipa> just add a new key to your wallet
1727 2013-05-30 20:26:39 <dansmith_btc> use the importprivkey feature on b.info
1728 2013-05-30 20:26:53 <sipa> that's a means, not a goal
1729 2013-05-30 20:26:56 <dansmith_btc> they only accept '5' privkeys
1730 2013-05-30 20:27:14 <sipa> what do you want to achieve?
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1732 2013-05-30 20:28:49 <warren> sipa: on my laptop, litecoin-0.8.2 -reindex is 33 minutes.   30 minutes with secp256k1.  I guess litecoin doesn't have transactions. =)
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1734 2013-05-30 20:29:17 <sipa> warren: what -dbcache?
1735 2013-05-30 20:29:25 <warren> oh
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1737 2013-05-30 20:29:36 <warren> I just used default on both.  what should I use?
1738 2013-05-30 20:29:51 <sipa> as high as you can
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1740 2013-05-30 20:30:31 <warren> default is still 25?
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1742 2013-05-30 20:31:07 <sipa> yes
1743 2013-05-30 20:31:12 <warren> trying 500
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1747 2013-05-30 20:32:21 <dansmith_btc> sipa, I'm trying to achieve creating a multisig address on behalf of a b.info user. B.info won't allow signrawtransaction, hence I generate the priv key on my machine do signrawtransaction and pass on the priv key to the b.info user
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1749 2013-05-30 20:32:59 <sipa> ic
1750 2013-05-30 20:33:26 <sipa> if you're giving away private keys, what is the point of using multisig?
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1752 2013-05-30 20:34:34 <warren> sipa: we have no command switch to have it stop the daemon after reindex is complete?
1753 2013-05-30 20:34:50 <sipa> warren: no
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1757 2013-05-30 20:35:14 <sipa> warren: i use -logtimestamps and then just look at the time for the first and the last block
1758 2013-05-30 20:35:22 <warren> yeah, using that
1759 2013-05-30 20:35:41 <warren> also using -connect=bogusIP:bogusport so the network doesn't change anything.
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1776 2013-05-30 20:54:04 <warren> sipa: would we be against adding a switch that stops after reindex?
1777 2013-05-30 20:54:10 CaptainBlaze has joined
1778 2013-05-30 20:54:21 <warren> No network at all, only reindex.
1779 2013-05-30 20:54:31 <Luke-Jr> warren: after doing all startup (minus network maybe), makes more sense
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1781 2013-05-30 20:54:43 <Luke-Jr> so you can use to check blocks etc
1782 2013-05-30 20:55:24 <warren> yeah
1783 2013-05-30 20:55:31 <warren> verification and benchmarking
1784 2013-05-30 20:56:33 testnode9_ has joined
1785 2013-05-30 20:56:55 <warren> sipa: 30 minutes with dbcache=25   24 minutes with dbcache=500
1786 2013-05-30 20:57:12 <warren> slow laptop
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1788 2013-05-30 21:00:35 <MC1984_> thats a slow laptop?
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1791 2013-05-30 21:01:43 <MC1984_> +1 for a real benchmarking mode though
1792 2013-05-30 21:01:59 <MC1984_> and a benchmarking dataset too
1793 2013-05-30 21:02:09 <MC1984_> probably one of jeffs bootstrap torrents
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1827 2013-05-30 21:40:22 <oleganza> hey guys. I'm writing a mac bitcoin wallet app. Have some questions on ecdsa.
1828 2013-05-30 21:41:37 <oleganza> why do we have both CKey::GetSecret and CKey::GetPrivKey apis?
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1830 2013-05-30 21:42:35 <oleganza> couldn't we always derive everything from a 32 byte secret parameter?
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1851 2013-05-30 21:58:39 <dansmith_btc> Hello, I created a 2-of-3 address like described here https://people.xiph.org/~greg/escrowexample.txt After that I sent BTC into it using python bitcoinrpc print access.sendtoaddress('32UQPBzLuYMGYCSkSK4YYSFD8BHBrJNmJC', 0.03)
1852 2013-05-30 21:58:39 <dansmith_btc> In the resulting tx BTC ended up in a totally different address
1853 2013-05-30 21:58:40 <dansmith_btc> https://blockchain.info/tx/a3b2c1db9424a0623aa92e2ec512f6ff26401c51726151cab842dbaffc2fe81e
1854 2013-05-30 21:59:03 <dansmith_btc> Am I misunderstanding something about 2-of-3 transactions?
1855 2013-05-30 21:59:23 Neozonz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1856 2013-05-30 22:00:18 <dansmith_btc> I was sending to 32UQPBzLuYMGYCSkSK4YYSFD8BHBrJNmJC and it ended up in 3JNaZ9A1yMpRTGyoG9Vq9MvvjKcECYbSoo
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1864 2013-05-30 22:06:15 <phantomcircuit> fun fact
1865 2013-05-30 22:06:28 <phantomcircuit> so far no multisig txout has been mined with >3 addresses
1866 2013-05-30 22:06:42 <phantomcircuit> which is actually boring since that's the isstandard cut off
1867 2013-05-30 22:06:50 <phantomcircuit> none the less
1868 2013-05-30 22:08:15 <phantomcircuit> bravo
1869 2013-05-30 22:09:25 <MC1984_> is that good
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1871 2013-05-30 22:09:48 <MC1984_> no ones using p2sh? thats bad
1872 2013-05-30 22:09:58 <helo> it means nobody has yet fed a miner a >3 multisig directly
1873 2013-05-30 22:10:04 <phantomcircuit> MC1984_, no there are P2SH tx outs
1874 2013-05-30 22:10:07 <phantomcircuit> 15fXdTyFL1p53qQ8NkrjBqPUbPWvWmZ3G9
1875 2013-05-30 22:10:15 <phantomcircuit> that address has 150k tx outs to it
1876 2013-05-30 22:10:22 <nsh> anyone able to illuminate dansmith_btc's mystery?
1877 2013-05-30 22:10:23 <phantomcircuit> something about sd
1878 2013-05-30 22:10:43 <MC1984_> 150000 outputs are you serious
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1880 2013-05-30 22:11:00 <phantomcircuit> (149237 rows)
1881 2013-05-30 22:11:28 <helo> it's their bet iterator
1882 2013-05-30 22:11:41 <MC1984_> oh >3 multisig is nonstandard
1883 2013-05-30 22:11:43 <helo> (not really, i have no idea)
1884 2013-05-30 22:12:04 <phantomcircuit> wallet=# select addresses, count(*) from transaction_outputs group by addresses having count(*) > 100 order by count(*) desc limit 50;
1885 2013-05-30 22:12:09 <nsh> phantomcircuit,  "No. Transactions	285547" per bc.info. is that counting onward spends too?
1886 2013-05-30 22:12:26 <phantomcircuit> nsh, no im only counting transaction outputs
1887 2013-05-30 22:12:58 <nsh> right, but i guess blockchain.info is also counting its use in inputs too
1888 2013-05-30 22:12:59 <phantomcircuit> so not surprisingly the most active addresses are sd
1889 2013-05-30 22:13:02 <phantomcircuit> then there's also this one
1890 2013-05-30 22:13:03 <phantomcircuit> 1VayNert3x1KzbpzMGt2qdqrAThiRovi8
1891 2013-05-30 22:13:17 damientrog has joined
1892 2013-05-30 22:13:39 <Luke-Jr> 1VayNert3x1KzbpzMGt2qdqrAThiRovi8 = Deepbit
1893 2013-05-30 22:13:45 <helo> vaynert, russia
1894 2013-05-30 22:13:51 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, oh
1895 2013-05-30 22:13:57 <phantomcircuit> 731787 txouts still seems a bit uh
1896 2013-05-30 22:13:59 <phantomcircuit> much
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1898 2013-05-30 22:14:22 <nsh> (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=53892.0)
1899 2013-05-30 22:14:26 <phantomcircuit> nsh, i'll be able to count the inputs also in a moment i haven't yet finished marking outputs as spent from inputs
1900 2013-05-30 22:14:40 <phantomcircuit> at block 185 for that
1901 2013-05-30 22:14:47 <phantomcircuit> 185k*
1902 2013-05-30 22:14:53 <nsh> right on
1903 2013-05-30 22:16:12 <phantomcircuit> by my count sd is responsible for a little over 25% of the transactions on the network
1904 2013-05-30 22:16:15 <phantomcircuit> that's just ludicous
1905 2013-05-30 22:16:57 <MC1984_> gamling lol
1906 2013-05-30 22:17:15 <phantomcircuit> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=1sWA1SRJ
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1908 2013-05-30 22:17:16 <Luke-Jr> maybe if they weren't evil spammers, they might get 0.25% of actual usage someday!
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1910 2013-05-30 22:18:06 <phantomcircuit> most importantly all of this data fits into a ~9 GB postgresql db
1911 2013-05-30 22:18:14 <phantomcircuit> including very fast indexing
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1913 2013-05-30 22:19:03 <MC1984_> people are paying dice to fuck the blockchain
1914 2013-05-30 22:19:28 * nsh cites hanlon's razor
1915 2013-05-30 22:19:29 <MC1984_> people are paying asicminer to fuck txn processing and decentralisation
1916 2013-05-30 22:19:41 * nsh confiscates MC1984_'s bong
1917 2013-05-30 22:19:51 <MC1984_> people who like and use bitcoin the most are paying to destroy it, what can you say
1918 2013-05-30 22:19:52 <MC1984_> lol humans
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1920 2013-05-30 22:20:11 <nsh> you might be on to something there though
1921 2013-05-30 22:20:18 <nsh> each man kills the thing he loves
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1925 2013-05-30 22:24:21 <MC1984_> well were not done yet
1926 2013-05-30 22:24:41 <MC1984_> email was very successful witha >95% bullshit rate
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1936 2013-05-30 22:44:47 <lophie> Heloo, For the bored developers here, Check this out https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=220494.0 , I hope you would find this interesting
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1943 2013-05-30 22:52:48 * nsh frowns at lophie's errant comma
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2005 2013-05-30 23:16:02 <fibseq> Dan Kamisky said that there is a 'zero percent chance' that SHA256 is still the hash algo for BTC by the end of the year.  He said that ASIC equals centralization of mining.  Do the core devs agree?  thanks.
2006 2013-05-30 23:16:32 <jaakkos> fibseq: where does he say that
2007 2013-05-30 23:17:02 <gmaxwell> fibseq: No we don't. We laughed our asses off at that and Jeff tried to challenge him to a bet and he wouldn't take it.
2008 2013-05-30 23:17:04 <fibseq> At the bitcoin2013 conference. At a round table discussion. the video is online
2009 2013-05-30 23:17:15 <jaakkos> eh.
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2013 2013-05-30 23:17:54 <fibseq> gmaxwell: ok thanks, just wondering before I invest in some ASIC hardware.
2014 2013-05-30 23:17:56 gjj has joined
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2016 2013-05-30 23:18:57 <fibseq> gmaxwell:  I do think he has a point though, in that ASIC can lead to a small number of entities to control the network...
2017 2013-05-30 23:19:13 Nothing4You is now known as cursed_traitor
2018 2013-05-30 23:19:14 <gmaxwell> If we want to be mathmatically pedantic about if, Zero percent suggests that he should accept a bet with nearly infinite payoff in our favor... he wouldn't even take an even bet. This suggests that his economically rational expectation is near 50% or more.
2019 2013-05-30 23:19:24 cursed_traitor is now known as Nothing4You
2020 2013-05-30 23:19:41 <lianj> infosec rule, don't take dan to seroius
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2022 2013-05-30 23:19:47 <Scrat> fibseq: why doesn't he suggest a PoW function that isn't ASICable then?
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2024 2013-05-30 23:20:18 <gmaxwell> fibseq: he doesn't really. Thats not a fact of sha256 or "asics" its just a fact of the universe. In a system that determines some kind of consensus someone who expends more resources can get ahead.
2025 2013-05-30 23:20:37 <Scrat> hint: there isn't any. even scrypt with a ton of ram will be more favorable on ASICs at some point
2026 2013-05-30 23:20:53 <gmaxwell> Scrat: there is no such thing. At best you could do is lower the speedup factor— but is handing control over to botnet operators vs people who purchase mining hardware a material improvement?
2027 2013-05-30 23:21:37 <gmaxwell> (LTC suggests its not— many (most?) LTC pools are behind TOR because its basically impossible to get ltc miners to not attack each other)
2028 2013-05-30 23:21:49 <fibseq> good point on the botnet...  the people running those must have made 1 Million BTC in 2011
2029 2013-05-30 23:21:59 <sipa> 1Maybe.
2030 2013-05-30 23:22:05 <sipa> Maybe.
2031 2013-05-30 23:22:10 <dugo> the only way to twarth people baking a specific chip for the PoW is changing the function over and over
2032 2013-05-30 23:22:23 <MC1984_> how did dan get on the panels any way
2033 2013-05-30 23:22:25 <fibseq> +1 dugo
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2035 2013-05-30 23:22:41 <MC1984_> he doesnt seem to like bitcoin
2036 2013-05-30 23:22:44 <fibseq> tacotime is doing that with a new coin called netcoin... its going to have multiple PoW functions that change randomly
2037 2013-05-30 23:22:50 <gmaxwell> MC1984_: he's a generally smart guy who's pretty fun. He's bombastic.  lianj didn't say that he was stupid, only not to take him too seriously.
2038 2013-05-30 23:23:05 <gmaxwell> fibseq: even that doesn't do anything but reduce the speedup factor.
2039 2013-05-30 23:23:06 <MC1984_> i know hes not stupid, just animated
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2041 2013-05-30 23:23:26 <lianj> fibseq: if its random, how can you revalidate the chain or know which to use for the next block
2042 2013-05-30 23:23:39 <gmaxwell> I can still build a specalized system which has arrays of x86 cores much more cheaply per unit than random servers/desktops that need things like pci busses and such.
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2044 2013-05-30 23:23:58 <gmaxwell> And indeed, you can't use the chain to decide the pow... or the badguy mines the pows he likes. :P
2045 2013-05-30 23:24:03 <MC1984_> is it known that the botnets have been pushed out yet
2046 2013-05-30 23:24:09 <Scrat> probably deterministic based on previous block
2047 2013-05-30 23:24:10 <fibseq> lainj:  the random order is recorded by using bits from the previous block
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2049 2013-05-30 23:24:25 <Scrat> but, at some point an ASIC will be made for that
2050 2013-05-30 23:24:28 <gmaxwell> fibseq: sure, and an attacker controls those bits completely.
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2053 2013-05-30 23:24:48 <Scrat> (if it makes economic sense)
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2055 2013-05-30 23:25:43 <fibseq> gmaxwell: that can be mitigated by forcing a PoW change.... i.e. if  5 PreviousBlocks  were same PoW, then force a switch to the other options
2056 2013-05-30 23:25:44 <MC1984_> oh yeah what did he mean by multiple POWs
2057 2013-05-30 23:25:50 <MC1984_> how is that possible
2058 2013-05-30 23:26:33 <sipa> fibseq: i'm curious to see fun variations in hash rate :D
2059 2013-05-30 23:26:38 <fibseq> MC1984_: netcoin will take some bits from the hash of the previous block... ie if the last 2 bits are 00, then SHA256, if 01, then MD5, if 10, then scrypt, if 11, then XYZ>.. etc
2060 2013-05-30 23:27:01 <sipa> fibseq: if all miners like function X, they'll mine 4 blocks using function X, and then all stop mining until somone produces a block using function Y
2061 2013-05-30 23:27:15 <gmaxwell> "sucker block"
2062 2013-05-30 23:27:34 <sipa> which takes many times longer
2063 2013-05-30 23:27:37 <fibseq> sipa,  then pay out more reward for the function Y that takes longer to mine.
2064 2013-05-30 23:27:46 <sipa> fibseq: how do you know?
2065 2013-05-30 23:27:48 <MC1984_> so a randomised set of POW functions that change per block
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2067 2013-05-30 23:27:57 <MC1984_> wow
2068 2013-05-30 23:28:01 <sipa> which function is likeable depends on economics and technological evolution
2069 2013-05-30 23:28:17 <sipa> you _could_ however have separate difficulties for each function
2070 2013-05-30 23:28:19 <Scrat> MC1984_: doesn't make it ASIC proof in the slightest
2071 2013-05-30 23:28:19 gjj has joined
2072 2013-05-30 23:28:43 <MC1984_> well, youd just have several types of asic
2073 2013-05-30 23:29:10 <MC1984_> and have to pay the capital cost on each type instead of just one
2074 2013-05-30 23:29:11 <fibseq> sipa: someone smarter then me could code something that uses free market economics to determine which PoW is used, and that they are somehow changed frequently enough...
2075 2013-05-30 23:29:32 <MC1984_> im in favour of taking control of the weapon, not trying to avoid it
2076 2013-05-30 23:29:42 <MC1984_> IE ultra efficient hashing hardware
2077 2013-05-30 23:30:09 <MC1984_> logically asics shoul be made as easy as possible to produce, not as hard as possible right?
2078 2013-05-30 23:31:40 <fibseq> anyway, its obvoiusly very theoretical, but the argument is that changing PoW frequently would make ASIC solutions useless --- but as gmaxwell said, then botnets would run the network
2079 2013-05-30 23:31:55 <fibseq> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=169204.0  the whitepaper is here if anyone is interested
2080 2013-05-30 23:31:58 damientrog has quit (Quit: damientrog)
2081 2013-05-30 23:32:17 * nsh is less pessimistic about distribution-favouring PoW algorithm(-set) potential
2082 2013-05-30 23:32:29 nizeguy has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2083 2013-05-30 23:32:39 <nsh> there are a number of possible strategies that have yet to be considered
2084 2013-05-30 23:32:39 <phantomcircuit> fibseq, to be 100% fair the botnet operators in general i suspect are less likely to cock things up
2085 2013-05-30 23:32:43 <phantomcircuit> which seems backwards but
2086 2013-05-30 23:32:45 <phantomcircuit> well
2087 2013-05-30 23:32:48 <phantomcircuit> i have my suspicions
2088 2013-05-30 23:33:00 <dugo> you'd just drop back to general purpose chips and FPGAs
2089 2013-05-30 23:33:06 <MC1984_> were botnets ever a significant % of bitcoin?
2090 2013-05-30 23:33:14 damientrog has joined
2091 2013-05-30 23:33:19 <sipa> for relatively short periods of time, yes
2092 2013-05-30 23:33:24 <phantomcircuit> MC1984_, at somepoint i suspect so
2093 2013-05-30 23:33:30 <gmaxwell> fibseq: or, as I also said— people will make boards full of what random CPU is suitable and still have them be 2x or more cost/power effective than general PCs.
2094 2013-05-30 23:33:37 <nsh> (botnets also don't tend to identify as such)
2095 2013-05-30 23:33:38 <phantomcircuit> sipa, wellll actually i think they still have a lot of mining power
2096 2013-05-30 23:33:39 <petertodd> fibseq: ASICs do have the property that any attacker needs to make a large capital investment *because* they are highly specialized, against attackers that want to rent hashing power that's a very good thing
2097 2013-05-30 23:33:41 <MC1984_> i remember the mystery miner...
2098 2013-05-30 23:34:10 <petertodd> fibseq: against attackers that happen to control the worlds chip fabs, it's not a good thing. What exactly the tradeoff is here just isn't clear yet.
2099 2013-05-30 23:34:45 <MC1984_> oh netcoin is a thing
2100 2013-05-30 23:34:54 <nsh> ;;google US patent algorithm for proof of geographical location based on GPS data
2101 2013-05-30 23:34:56 <altgribble> nsh: Error: This command is not available, as this is an alternate Gribble system. Some authing, rating, order book, and other miscellaneous commands are not available.
2102 2013-05-30 23:34:56 phma has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2103 2013-05-30 23:35:01 * nsh frowns
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2105 2013-05-30 23:35:03 <fibseq> gmaxwell:  you're right. but people wouldn't do that until market cap of the said coin is much larger then BTC is right now.... maybe $5 or $10 Billion
2106 2013-05-30 23:35:04 <petertodd> fibseq: Dual PoW functions with independent difficulties are probably a good idea, but we won't really know until we see an attacker...
2107 2013-05-30 23:35:09 <MC1984_> wow i hardly keep up the forums any more, SNR got so low
2108 2013-05-30 23:35:27 gjj has joined
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2110 2013-05-30 23:35:33 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i've seen botnet clients with modified bfgminer instances
2111 2013-05-30 23:35:38 <nsh> (it's theoretically possible to include a pseudo-/netowork-geographic distribution to the lottery as well as a iteration-based distribution
2112 2013-05-30 23:35:40 <nsh> )
2113 2013-05-30 23:35:46 <nsh> *an
2114 2013-05-30 23:35:48 <petertodd> fibseq: For the other extreme, you can make an alt-coin whose "PoW" consists of sacrificing Bitcoins - now an attacker with more Bitcoins than have been sacrificed to date can trivially attack the chain. Is this good or bad? Who knows?
2115 2013-05-30 23:35:56 <phantomcircuit> sipa, that being said im 99% sure the people running the botnets have no interest in breaking bitcoin
2116 2013-05-30 23:36:08 <phantomcircuit> since it's a profit center for them more so than any of the legitimate miners :|
2117 2013-05-30 23:36:13 bone- has joined
2118 2013-05-30 23:36:14 <phantomcircuit> irony or ironies
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2120 2013-05-30 23:36:30 <fibseq> there was a botnet in 2011 that had 5000+ clients running GPU mining. they prob cleared 250K btc
2121 2013-05-30 23:36:39 gjj has joined
2122 2013-05-30 23:36:48 <sipa> mystery miner?
2123 2013-05-30 23:36:55 <sipa> oh, no that was longer ago
2124 2013-05-30 23:36:56 one_zero has joined
2125 2013-05-30 23:37:07 <phantomcircuit> there are a number of botnets pretending to be independent that are pretty obviously the same person
2126 2013-05-30 23:37:16 <phantomcircuit> they all uses tor hidden services to coordinate
2127 2013-05-30 23:37:24 <sipa> wait, MM was in march 2011
2128 2013-05-30 23:37:35 <petertodd> sipa: march 2012
2129 2013-05-30 23:37:36 <phantomcircuit> just have protocols which are aesthetically different but actually identical
2130 2013-05-30 23:37:44 <fibseq> phantomcircuit:  sadly, i agree with you re: botnet operators not wanting to attack the network
2131 2013-05-30 23:37:45 <sipa> phantomcircuit: eh, no
2132 2013-05-30 23:37:49 <sipa> petertodd: eh, no
2133 2013-05-30 23:38:03 one_zero has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2134 2013-05-30 23:38:15 <sipa> petertodd: you can still see the spike here: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-ever.png
2135 2013-05-30 23:38:27 <phantomcircuit> sipa, eh no what?
2136 2013-05-30 23:38:32 <petertodd> sipa: oh, I mean the empty blocks miner: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67634.0
2137 2013-05-30 23:38:36 <sipa> phantomcircuit: wrong nick
2138 2013-05-30 23:38:45 <phantomcircuit> oh
2139 2013-05-30 23:38:48 <phantomcircuit> carry on
2140 2013-05-30 23:38:55 <petertodd> sipa: Interesting, I didn't realize that was a botnet
2141 2013-05-30 23:39:12 <petertodd> sipa: Was GPU mining software available then?
2142 2013-05-30 23:39:15 <petertodd> (publicly)
2143 2013-05-30 23:39:22 grau has joined
2144 2013-05-30 23:39:31 <sipa> yes, but i think MM was a CPU miner botnet
2145 2013-05-30 23:39:48 <sipa> not sure why i think that though
2146 2013-05-30 23:40:03 <sipa> but perhaps i'm talking about a different one than fibseq
2147 2013-05-30 23:40:07 <petertodd> Interesting - likely it'll be the largest jump in difficulty that Bitcoin will ever see.
2148 2013-05-30 23:40:17 <sipa> which?
2149 2013-05-30 23:40:21 <fibseq> anyway, if we want to think End-Game -- whoever controls 14nm foundries can centralize mining.   Maybe its a few years before Intel gets theirs hands wet, but its inevitable if the market cap grows and YoY mining profits exceed $100-500MM
2150 2013-05-30 23:40:37 <sipa> petertodd: and GPU miners were certainly available
2151 2013-05-30 23:40:38 <petertodd> Oh, wait, never mind, I was looking at july 2010...
2152 2013-05-30 23:40:42 phma has joined
2153 2013-05-30 23:40:43 <sipa> petertodd: since october 2010 afaik
2154 2013-05-30 23:41:04 <fibseq> ArtForz was getting into GPU early 2011 i think
2155 2013-05-30 23:41:30 <fibseq> and gpu mining tools were released around april
2156 2013-05-30 23:41:54 <petertodd> fibseq: You realize we can fairly easily change the PoW algorithm if we have too.
2157 2013-05-30 23:42:09 <sipa> if we _have_ to, yes
2158 2013-05-30 23:42:19 <sipa> but that will be a pretty severe form of 'have to'
2159 2013-05-30 23:42:53 <petertodd> For sure, but I mean, any hard fork has that property.
2160 2013-05-30 23:43:02 <sipa> this one is harder
2161 2013-05-30 23:43:08 <sipa> as it also means upgrading SPV nodes
2162 2013-05-30 23:43:09 <dugo> turning on a nice(2) cpu miner by default in the client would only help decentralisation symbolicaly nowadays, no?
2163 2013-05-30 23:43:11 <fibseq> petertodd: yeah, ... and i know this has been discussed ad nauseum.... but after Dan Kaminsky's comments (obiviously hyperbole) i thought i'd ask what the devs think about it ;)
2164 2013-05-30 23:43:17 <petertodd> And the change doesn't have to make the old PoW obsolete, you add a parallel algorithm with independent difficulty.
2165 2013-05-30 23:43:20 <sipa> and miners...
2166 2013-05-30 23:43:40 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2167 2013-05-30 23:44:15 <petertodd> sipa: Not quite. You add in the second diff proof on top of the existing one, and then make SPV miners connect to nodes that only give them blocks that meet both.
2168 2013-05-30 23:44:39 <petertodd> sipa: Not a pretty solution, but it's workable, even for a lot of secure hardware stuff.
2169 2013-05-30 23:44:47 <sipa> "SPV miners" :o
2170 2013-05-30 23:44:48 <sipa> ?
2171 2013-05-30 23:44:58 one_zero has joined
2172 2013-05-30 23:45:02 <petertodd> sipa: lol, SPV clients
2173 2013-05-30 23:45:15 <petertodd> God help us if SPV miners become common. :P
2174 2013-05-30 23:45:33 <sipa> we'll see "i don't mind any blocks" miners long before that
2175 2013-05-30 23:45:36 <sipa> *mine
2176 2013-05-30 23:45:58 <petertodd> sipa: I've got a few no-block miners on my desk right now. They don't even need power!
2177 2013-05-30 23:46:06 <sipa> grr
2178 2013-05-30 23:46:16 <sipa> we'll see "i don't mind any non-coinbase transactions" miners long before that
2179 2013-05-30 23:46:22 <sipa> *mine
2180 2013-05-30 23:46:27 <petertodd> Much better. :P
2181 2013-05-30 23:46:37 <MC1984_> we had that
2182 2013-05-30 23:47:10 <petertodd> Actually I was talking earlier about ultra-fast UDP-based blockheader propagation. Specifically, with that the rational thing to do for a miner would be to mine a zero-tx block once they knew a competing block existed that they hadn't validated yet.
2183 2013-05-30 23:47:24 <petertodd> Or just extend the non-validated block with a zero-tx block...
2184 2013-05-30 23:47:58 <Vinnie_win> gmaxwell: Yo
2185 2013-05-30 23:47:59 <petertodd> The former is a nice way to make the attack of making blocks that take a lot time to propegate less useful.
2186 2013-05-30 23:48:11 <Vinnie_win> gmaxwell: Did you resolve the merge problem with the leveldb branch?
2187 2013-05-30 23:48:17 <petertodd> The latter is unfortunately more economically rational, but scary...
2188 2013-05-30 23:49:21 <petertodd> re: the latter, a side-PoW with a proof that you actually know the contents of the prev block would be nice - I think gmaxwell has mentioned this
2189 2013-05-30 23:50:20 gjj has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2190 2013-05-30 23:50:44 gjj has joined
2191 2013-05-30 23:51:51 <MC1984_> youre gonna to the blockheader first stuff?
2192 2013-05-30 23:52:01 <fibseq> I like the parallel PoW idea... never thought about that... anyway... im off ... keep up all the good work!!
2193 2013-05-30 23:52:09 <MC1984_> and the block reconstructoin from mempool thing?
2194 2013-05-30 23:53:25 Teckie has joined
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2196 2013-05-30 23:54:31 <petertodd> MC1984_: Me? It's got a lot of nasty properties, but a small blocksize mostly makes those properties not matter, the issue is if you depend on it.
2197 2013-05-30 23:57:29 <Vinnie_win> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2616 Can someone please help me help them resolve this?
2198 2013-05-30 23:57:53 <MC1984_> netcoin souns very complicated
2199 2013-05-30 23:58:17 <gmaxwell> Vinnie_win: it only conflicted to me on the gitignore, so I just forced one.
2200 2013-05-30 23:58:30 <Vinnie_win> gmaxwell: So the merge was resolved?
2201 2013-05-30 23:58:48 Neozonz is now known as Disc!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Neozonz
2202 2013-05-30 23:58:59 <Vinnie_win> gmaxwell: I don't see the merge in the commit log of the master branch...
2203 2013-05-30 23:59:22 <sipa> it's not merged yet; i'm sure gmaxwell just means in his own local repository
2204 2013-05-30 23:59:25 <sipa> to test
2205 2013-05-30 23:59:27 <gmaxwell> Vinnie_win: I'm trying it _locally_ before approving it in public.
2206 2013-05-30 23:59:47 <sipa> gmaxwell: how did you do that?
2207 2013-05-30 23:59:50 <Vinnie_win> gmaxwell: Oh, ok. So then the problem of bitcoin mysteriously disappearing was resolved?