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27 2013-06-03 00:39:05 <berndj> has anyone looked at whether the feedback mechanism that holds block generation time close to 10 minutes is stable? (control theory wannabe nerd here)
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31 2013-06-03 00:43:17 <gmaxwell> berndj: if you exclude human psychology from the process it's trivially and obviously so, if you don't, well good luck finding the eigenvectors of the minds of the populous.
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33 2013-06-03 00:44:09 <berndj> i would model human psychology as noise. not sure if that'd be pink, white, or brown noise
34 2013-06-03 00:44:25 <gmaxwell> that wouldn't be a good model at all.
35 2013-06-03 00:44:36 <berndj> trivially and obviously though? got a nyquist diagram somewhere?
36 2013-06-03 00:45:09 <sipa> we've at least seen a ~3 week-delayed feedback from exchange increases to hash power increases
37 2013-06-03 00:45:15 <sipa> we've seen pool hoppinh
38 2013-06-03 00:45:25 <berndj> sipa, that's exactly the thing i'm wondering about
39 2013-06-03 00:45:38 <sipa> no way you can model human behaviour as uncorrelated
40 2013-06-03 00:45:42 <berndj> 3 weeks is like 270 degrees phase shift
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42 2013-06-03 00:45:58 <sipa> it's certainly not the only effect
43 2013-06-03 00:45:59 <gmaxwell> seriously it's a box filter, if you don't count the superduper highly non-linear humans turning on and off their miners, it's just a box filter with a gain of 1 exactly.
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45 2013-06-03 00:46:17 <berndj> wait no, it's more: it's 540 degrees - effectively 180
46 2013-06-03 00:46:47 <berndj> gmaxwell, i see what you're getting at at noise being a bad model for humans
47 2013-06-03 00:47:04 <berndj> to clarify: i'd model human psychology as a gain>1 amplifier with some noise added
48 2013-06-03 00:47:19 <maaku> berndj: that'd be a terrible model
49 2013-06-03 00:47:31 <gmaxwell> But that doesn't make any sense, humans are just nonlinear things.
50 2013-06-03 00:48:03 <gmaxwell> and without the humans the system is a simple linear function that instantly depends on the difficulty parameter.
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52 2013-06-03 00:48:30 <berndj> continuity is perhaps more interesting than linearity - you can zoom in far enough until you have an approximately linear segment
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54 2013-06-03 00:48:57 <maaku> berndj: as soon as you come up with a model of human behavior, assume that another human has done the same thing. and then figured out how to game that system
55 2013-06-03 00:49:04 <maaku> welcome to the social sciences
56 2013-06-03 00:49:38 <gmaxwell> berndj: uh, humans are not continuously differentiable, probably not even differentiable anywhere. :P
57 2013-06-03 00:49:40 <berndj> maaku: that description sounds like a noisy opamp
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60 2013-06-03 00:49:52 <gmaxwell> ..
61 2013-06-03 00:50:01 <berndj> gmaxwell: there's an old joke about curly pi the smooth operator...
62 2013-06-03 00:50:03 <maaku> berndj: do opamps have free will?
63 2013-06-03 00:50:42 <gmaxwell> Your toolbox needs some more tools if you think you can just model people as linear devices! like .. uh ... some non-linear tools.
64 2013-06-03 00:50:43 <berndj> no, but neither do humans, as a collective entity ;)
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67 2013-06-03 00:52:37 <berndj> gmaxwell, in what way, specifically and in this context, are humans (collectively) "nonlinear"?
68 2013-06-03 00:53:39 <berndj> if we separate out the whims of fashion as "noise", what we're left with is an economic decision (i think): higher mining profitability -> higher investment in mining equipment
69 2013-06-03 00:53:54 <gmaxwell> ...
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71 2013-06-03 00:54:21 <maaku> berndj: if only it was that easy
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73 2013-06-03 00:54:34 <berndj> i'm sure it is a nonlinear relationship, but i'm not convinced that it's nonlinear in a way that matters
74 2013-06-03 00:54:44 <gmaxwell> Well good luck to you then.
75 2013-06-03 00:54:50 <SteveDekorte> berndj: you don't think fashion (and all other decisions) are ultimately economic (ie utility towards survival/replication) decisions?
76 2013-06-03 00:55:41 <berndj> SteveDekorte, yes, and granted, i'm using "economic" in a more limited sense here that counts only $$$ (of whatever denomination you like)
77 2013-06-03 00:56:22 <SteveDekorte> berndj: isn't money just a more liquid asset than clothing, art, etc?
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79 2013-06-03 00:56:56 <berndj> i hear you objections that humans are more complicated than just gain + noise, but i'm wondering about what characteristics the feedback network has
80 2013-06-03 00:57:18 <berndj> if it would oscillate even if humans were some ideal linear (but noisy) amplifier, i'd say that's a problem
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82 2013-06-03 00:57:32 <berndj> SteveDekorte, yes, the rhetorical victory goes to you
83 2013-06-03 00:57:44 <berndj> sadly, it doesn't address what i'm interested in
84 2013-06-03 00:57:54 <nsh> gmaxwell++ (re: good luck finding the eigenvectors of the minds of the populus)
85 2013-06-03 00:57:57 <gmaxwell> What you're saying just makes no sense, and suggests that you haven't even spent more than a moment thinking about it.
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87 2013-06-03 00:58:14 <berndj> ok then i'll just stfu now
88 2013-06-03 00:58:19 <berndj> thanks for listening
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91 2013-06-03 00:58:54 <SteveDekorte> berndj: I think it's relevant that there are no non-economic decisions wrt human behavior
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94 2013-06-03 01:02:27 <warren> sigh. pools shouldn't copy random code from github, especially if they are PPS...
95 2013-06-03 01:02:39 <gmaxwell> more halarity?
96 2013-06-03 01:02:47 <warren> gmaxwell: yeah. yet another exploit going on.
97 2013-06-03 01:02:55 <gmaxwell> amuse me
98 2013-06-03 01:03:05 <warren> haven't figured it out yet
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100 2013-06-03 01:03:22 <sipa> in the beginning, people thought bitcoin was free money
101 2013-06-03 01:03:28 <sipa> i think we're past that
102 2013-06-03 01:03:38 <sipa> but they still think that dealing with it is free...
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104 2013-06-03 01:05:04 <SteveDekorte> berndj: FWIW I'm interested in your line of thought but I guess this isn't the best place to discuss it
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112 2013-06-03 01:11:31 <nsh> sipa, free is not necessarily equal to zero cost, in practice. it's can be effectively below-some-threshold-worth-caring-about
113 2013-06-03 01:11:36 <nsh> *it
114 2013-06-03 01:12:04 <sipa> sure, and hopefully that's what bitcoin perhaps actually can do: make handling money cheaper
115 2013-06-03 01:12:24 <nsh> and more flexible, which is where i believe the greater promise lies
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117 2013-06-03 01:12:30 <sipa> agree
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119 2013-06-03 01:14:50 <ne0futur> gmaxwell: we re talking of ideas to make a tipbot on -otc, your opinion on how to make it well would be welcome
120 2013-06-03 01:15:14 <ne0futur> ;;tip gmaxwell thanks for your ideas on dust management for tips and small donations
121 2013-06-03 01:15:14 <gribble> Error: "tip" is not a valid command.
122 2013-06-03 01:16:13 <nsh> ne0futur, reddit's btc-tipbot might be a good model
123 2013-06-03 01:17:08 <nsh> main modification would be to use services idents rather than reddit accounts, obviously, then if it can tie into gribble's web-of-trust that might be a bonus (?)
124 2013-06-03 01:17:56 <nsh> also if the bitcoins are delivered by carrier pigeon in microfiche format
125 2013-06-03 01:18:05 <nsh> yup, i'm out of sensible input
126 2013-06-03 01:18:10 <ne0futur> yes, or even better in atheme-services ( nickserv, chanser . . . .tipserv ) so any irc network can set it up easily ;)
127 2013-06-03 01:18:31 <nsh> you'd maybe have a job convincing freenode to run another service
128 2013-06-03 01:18:57 <nsh> but optional network level integration could provide some benefits
129 2013-06-03 01:19:18 <nsh> someone who codes for atheme chats here (is it you?)
130 2013-06-03 01:19:35 <ne0futur> you d have to convince atheme , not freenode ;)
131 2013-06-03 01:19:54 <ne0futur> but both are pretty much supporters of bitcoin afaik
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135 2013-06-03 01:20:26 <nsh> yes, but allowing unbattle-hardened code to access the network at that level would require a lot of faith
136 2013-06-03 01:22:20 <ne0futur> yeah its always risky to maintain a bitcoind
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138 2013-06-03 01:22:45 <ne0futur> any ways to make it use a partner providing the bitcoin tipping account could be useful
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283 2013-06-03 06:28:28 <midnightmagic> Is there a snappy way to directly import the blockchain into the leveldb store without replaying blocks? Like a db copy?
284 2013-06-03 06:29:04 <midnightmagic> I have a fast machine and a slow machine. The fast machine keeps up easily. The slow machine does not..
285 2013-06-03 06:30:08 <sipa> you can copy the databases (while the program isn't running)
286 2013-06-03 06:30:19 <midnightmagic> I see chainstate/* and blocks/* and I'm hoping I can just copy stuff over into them.
287 2013-06-03 06:30:24 <sipa> yes
288 2013-06-03 06:30:25 <midnightmagic> sipa: Thank you.
289 2013-06-03 06:30:35 <sipa> you can even copy them independently
290 2013-06-03 06:30:47 <sipa> just make sure that the chainstate/* is not newer than blocks/*
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292 2013-06-03 06:30:51 <midnightmagic> ah nice.
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335 2013-06-03 07:42:03 betatwelve has joined
336 2013-06-03 07:42:06 <betatwelve> hello
337 2013-06-03 07:42:34 <betatwelve> what are testcoins used for and how to get some?
338 2013-06-03 07:43:43 toffoo has quit ()
339 2013-06-03 07:45:46 whiterabbit has joined
340 2013-06-03 07:46:14 <lianj> betatwelve: testing. http://tpfaucet.appspot.com/
341 2013-06-03 07:46:41 <betatwelve> How can I get some testcoins?
342 2013-06-03 07:47:42 <betatwelve> OK i try to go to tpfaucet.appspot.com
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348 2013-06-03 07:53:56 <Luke-Jr> "TestNet coins are worthless, but useful. They are useful because they are worthless. If you will add value to them, they will be useless, therefore worthless." <-- lol, nice
349 2013-06-03 07:54:15 <jouke> :)
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364 2013-06-03 08:44:39 <dansmith_btc> Is there a way to run bitcoind so that it doesn't sync and yet is connected so that I could sendrawtransaction ?
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376 2013-06-03 09:07:52 <kinlo> dansmith_btc: why do you want to do that, if you are already capable of building raw transactions without knowing from which inputs, why don't you just submit the transaction on the p2p network yourself?
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379 2013-06-03 09:11:51 <sipa> i don't think that'll even work: sendrawtransaction submits to the local mempool, which won't accept it if it consumes inputs that it doesn't know about (yet)
380 2013-06-03 09:12:04 <sipa> i think we need a 'force' flag to sendrawtransaction to skip that
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416 2013-06-03 09:57:53 <dansmith_btc> kinlo, is there a simple tool which submits rawtransactions to the network?
417 2013-06-03 09:58:13 <dansmith_btc> sipa, yes a force flag would be great
418 2013-06-03 09:58:33 <kinlo> I doubt the force flag would make sense
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420 2013-06-03 09:58:44 <kinlo> I'd still think you just should send it on p2p
421 2013-06-03 09:59:02 <gmaxwell> considering your whole crazy idea is for blockchain.info users, why not use https://blockchain.info/pushtx
422 2013-06-03 09:59:05 <gmaxwell> ?
423 2013-06-03 09:59:19 nethershaw has joined
424 2013-06-03 09:59:42 <lianj> or http://webbtc.com/relay_tx
425 2013-06-03 10:01:07 <dansmith_btc> gmaxwell, I knew about pushtx, I'm just trying to find as an autonomous solution as possible. If sending raw can be done from my machine, that's a prefereable path.
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429 2013-06-03 10:04:45 <lianj> dansmith_btc: connecting to the network and sending a tx packet is kinda easy
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431 2013-06-03 10:05:38 <dansmith_btc> lianj, yes, you are right
432 2013-06-03 10:08:36 <sipa> well there are other uses for a force sendrawtransaction
433 2013-06-03 10:08:45 <sipa> for example to rebroadcast a tx already in your mempool
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464 2013-06-03 10:41:56 <Subo1978> !seen sipa
465 2013-06-03 10:41:56 <gribble> sipa was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 33 minutes and 11 seconds ago: <sipa> for example to rebroadcast a tx already in your mempool
466 2013-06-03 10:47:48 <runeks> So I'm trying to run bitcoind on a Raspberry Pi. And it's all went pretty well so far. But it seems to have stopped at block 225724.
467 2013-06-03 10:48:17 <runeks> After that, debug.log just has a lot of "Flushed <n> addresses to peers.dat 1700ms"
468 2013-06-03 10:48:41 <runeks> And it seems it's trying to connect to peers instead of processing blocks.
469 2013-06-03 10:50:20 <lianj> runeks: which version did you compile?
470 2013-06-03 10:50:32 agath has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
471 2013-06-03 10:50:38 <runeks> lianj: v0.8.2.2-g09e437b-beta
472 2013-06-03 10:50:48 <runeks> Here's the debug.log in case that's useful: http://runeks.dk/files/debug.log
473 2013-06-03 10:50:51 agath has joined
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475 2013-06-03 10:52:00 <lianj> are you still connected to at least one peer? tried to restart it and see if it starts syncing again?
476 2013-06-03 10:52:12 dfdf has joined
477 2013-06-03 10:53:53 <runeks> lianj: Trying to ask how many connections it has now. It's using 70% CPU and very slow to respond, so it's definitely doing something.
478 2013-06-03 10:54:38 zer0def has joined
479 2013-06-03 10:54:38 <runeks> lianj: Haven't tried to restart. I haven't dared touch it. But perhaps I should try that.
480 2013-06-03 10:54:41 <lianj> bitcoind getinfo
481 2013-06-03 10:54:45 lolcookie__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
482 2013-06-03 10:54:57 <lianj> also, you have enough ram + swap space=?
483 2013-06-03 10:55:03 <runeks> I'm doing a getconnectioncount but it's still waiting.
484 2013-06-03 10:55:04 lolcookie__ has joined
485 2013-06-03 10:55:21 <runeks> lianj: I have 145420 KB of free RAM
486 2013-06-03 10:55:36 <runeks> 0.8.2 really has helped with that. It ran out of memory with 0.8.1
487 2013-06-03 10:56:51 blaeks has joined
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491 2013-06-03 10:59:29 <warren> hmm, I have already cloned a copy of bitcoin/bitcoin into wtogami/bitcoin. to update it to master again, do I need to use a command line client to pull and push, or does the web interface have a option to pull from its original origin?
492 2013-06-03 11:00:52 <runeks> warren: AFAIK you need to do it via command line.
493 2013-06-03 11:01:14 <warren> k
494 2013-06-03 11:01:17 <warren> just checking
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502 2013-06-03 11:10:55 <warren> hmm, how do I copy a branch from a different git tree into your own?
503 2013-06-03 11:12:31 <warren> oooh, might have figured it out
504 2013-06-03 11:14:29 <lianj> warren: new to git? :)
505 2013-06-03 11:14:59 <warren> lianj: new to advanced git ... features beyond svn in complexity. Loving it!
506 2013-06-03 11:16:34 <warren> lianj: failing at the sleep thing...
507 2013-06-03 11:18:07 pizzacat has quit (Quit: Leaving)
508 2013-06-03 11:19:33 <dansmith_btc> I tried signrawtransaction <hex> <txid,vout,scriptPubkey> <priv key> both on a synced and an UNsynced bitcoind. It didn't work on the UNsynced one. So, what info is the UNsynced bitcoind lacking in order to sign?
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516 2013-06-03 11:28:47 <sipa> warren: i guess the secp256k1 gitian stuff doesn't work for win32?
517 2013-06-03 11:28:58 <sipa> right, it only touches gitian.yml, so indeed
518 2013-06-03 11:29:01 <sipa> still, thanks!
519 2013-06-03 11:29:12 <warren> Anyone know how to do root commands within gitian? I shelled in using "on-target". I don't know how it configures the sudo or su password.
520 2013-06-03 11:29:17 ericmuys_ has joined
521 2013-06-03 11:29:54 <warren> sipa: I think I can make win32 work
522 2013-06-03 11:29:55 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
523 2013-06-03 11:29:58 <warren> sipa: poking at it
524 2013-06-03 11:30:20 <warren> sipa: any idea how to do sudo or su commands in gitian's on-target?
525 2013-06-03 11:30:21 <randy-waterhouse> any way to disconnect from a misbehaving node without stopping and starting bitcoind?
526 2013-06-03 11:30:38 <warren> randy-waterhouse: iptables block the IP
527 2013-06-03 11:31:12 <randy-waterhouse> yeah, i was hoping for bitcoind command
528 2013-06-03 11:32:50 <warren> randy-waterhouse: I wonder if addnode=IP remove would work
529 2013-06-03 11:32:54 <warren> RPC
530 2013-06-03 11:33:41 <randy-waterhouse> hmmm might do, thnx
531 2013-06-03 11:33:47 <warren> sipa: I can figure this out, but I'm stuck with gitian ...
532 2013-06-03 11:34:51 lolcookie__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
533 2013-06-03 11:35:08 <warren> hah, that was easier than expected
534 2013-06-03 11:35:15 <warren> on-target --user root
535 2013-06-03 11:35:20 lolcookie__ has joined
536 2013-06-03 11:35:20 <warren> which does not match the documentation ...
537 2013-06-03 11:38:42 <randy-waterhouse> ./bitcoind addnode 68.11.136.208 remove error: {"code":-24,"message":"Error: Node has not been added."}
538 2013-06-03 11:39:02 <randy-waterhouse> nope ... might be nice to have ability to boot nodes off on the fly
539 2013-06-03 11:40:37 <warren> I agree, I'd like that
540 2013-06-03 11:40:48 <warren> randy-waterhouse: what if you add then remove?
541 2013-06-03 11:41:30 <randy-waterhouse> i think it is just for the addnode list that is referenced at start-up from bitcoin.conf isn't it?
542 2013-06-03 11:42:01 <warren> addnode also connects to something immediately, I think.
543 2013-06-03 11:42:14 <randy-waterhouse> ok .. didn't know that
544 2013-06-03 11:45:12 <sipa> warren: hmm, why do you compile gmp from source, instead of just depending on libgmp-dev?
545 2013-06-03 11:45:33 <warren> sipa: libgmp-dev is too old in lucid.
546 2013-06-03 11:46:59 <sipa> warren: that's a serious problem
547 2013-06-03 11:47:11 <sipa> as it means the compiled binary will not work on lucid...?
548 2013-06-03 11:47:35 <warren> oh? I thought everything linked in gitian was static?
549 2013-06-03 11:47:42 * warren looks at my own build
550 2013-06-03 11:48:12 lianj has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
551 2013-06-03 11:48:33 <sipa> ah, could be!
552 2013-06-03 11:49:01 <warren> sipa: crap. you're right.
553 2013-06-03 11:49:01 <warren> sipa: ok, I need to rework that gmp in gitian to be static.
554 2013-06-03 11:50:01 <randy-waterhouse> warren: nope ... addnode doesn't appear to disconnect the given node
555 2013-06-03 11:50:21 <warren> randy-waterhouse: addnode add then subsequent remove doesn't?
556 2013-06-03 11:50:32 <randy-waterhouse> right
557 2013-06-03 11:50:39 <warren> addnode remove failing to disconnect is a bug, IMHO
558 2013-06-03 11:50:56 <sipa> ;;genrate 11000
559 2013-06-03 11:50:56 <gribble> The expected generation output, at 11000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 12153411.7098, is 0.455178497433 BTC per day and 0.0189657707264 BTC per hour.
560 2013-06-03 11:50:58 <warren> randy-waterhouse: file an issue, I think
561 2013-06-03 11:51:11 <randy-waterhouse> well it appears there would be a need for some sort of command than can disconnect a node
562 2013-06-03 11:51:41 <randy-waterhouse> i can optimise my network neighbourhood then ..
563 2013-06-03 11:51:47 <warren> randy-waterhouse: debate in the issue what the command should be. addnode remove seems logical as it already exists (even though it's strange)
564 2013-06-03 11:52:22 <randy-waterhouse> do you know if addnode initiates an immediate connection?
565 2013-06-03 11:52:31 <warren> I thought it did.
566 2013-06-03 11:52:38 <warren> It did here at least a few times
567 2013-06-03 11:53:47 <warren> sipa: fuck...
568 2013-06-03 11:54:20 <warren> sipa: gmp is LGPL. can't static link it while keeping the core "open", if that's a goal...
569 2013-06-03 11:55:07 <sipa> warren: keep the ubuntu gitian build no-GMP perhaps?
570 2013-06-03 11:55:38 <warren> what is the detriment as no-GMP?
571 2013-06-03 11:56:00 <warren> sipa: that means all gitian builds will be slower only for the sake of an ancient Ubuntu version?
572 2013-06-03 11:56:20 <sipa> yes
573 2013-06-03 11:56:34 <sipa> but still significantly faster than openssl
574 2013-06-03 11:57:05 <warren> wouldn't it be better to put newgmp into lucid-backports?
575 2013-06-03 11:57:37 <sipa> i think we should just upgrade the build env and drop lucid support :0
576 2013-06-03 11:57:45 <warren> +1
577 2013-06-03 11:58:11 <warren> I can rewrite gitian to use Fedora as the deterministic env. Latest tools for everything! =)
578 2013-06-03 11:59:36 <warren> sipa: huh... are bitcoin's official win32 and mac binaries static linking qt right now?
579 2013-06-03 11:59:47 <warren> if so, the "open" goal is lost.
580 2013-06-03 12:00:09 <warren> sipa: linux gitian builds are dynamic linking qt at least.
581 2013-06-03 12:00:30 <BlueMatt> hey, its a TD
582 2013-06-03 12:01:03 <warren> ?
583 2013-06-03 12:01:10 <sipa> warren: i don't know enough about licensing issues or static/dynamic builds
584 2013-06-03 12:02:11 lianj has joined
585 2013-06-03 12:02:22 <warren> (Politically, I don't care about the "open" goal, LGPL static linked can infect everything else with FREEDOM, but I assumed Bitcoin being licensed the way it is, someone intended it to be "open".)
586 2013-06-03 12:03:17 <TD> hi
587 2013-06-03 12:03:36 <warren> It's as if TD were summoned.
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593 2013-06-03 12:05:38 <warren> hmm, I thought mingw32 had yasm in it, but there is none.
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596 2013-06-03 12:06:22 <warren> sipa: it seems sticking to max performance for the standard gitian build would be ideal. If you want to use it on an ancient distro, make a gmp backport.
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599 2013-06-03 12:06:25 <warren> sipa: not hard
600 2013-06-03 12:08:10 <randy-waterhouse> warren thanks https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2729
601 2013-06-03 12:09:39 <warren> randy-waterhouse: thanks for filing
602 2013-06-03 12:09:44 <warren> I want this
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607 2013-06-03 12:15:37 <warren> sipa: oh btw, I have a mac friend that thinks he can figure out mac deterministic builds.
608 2013-06-03 12:15:50 <sipa> in a gitian VM?
609 2013-06-03 12:15:59 <warren> sipa: I wonder if we can make a bounty for that
610 2013-06-03 12:16:01 <sipa> legally?
611 2013-06-03 12:16:13 <warren> it wouldn't be gitian
612 2013-06-03 12:16:41 <sipa> well without *some* VM at some level, you won't get determinstic builds
613 2013-06-03 12:17:00 <warren> one mode of gitian itself uses no VM
614 2013-06-03 12:17:29 <warren> I'm not sure how he intends on doing this.
615 2013-06-03 12:18:00 <warren> The goal is "the exact same binary built from the exact same source, no matter who builds it" right?
616 2013-06-03 12:18:10 <warren> So does it matter how it achieves that goal?
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618 2013-06-03 12:18:32 <nsh> how affects whether
619 2013-06-03 12:19:33 <BlueMatt> warren: talk to Luke-Jr and mikeperry from tor
620 2013-06-03 12:19:40 <BlueMatt> they are working on in-gitian mac deterministic builds
621 2013-06-03 12:20:01 <BlueMatt> at least for tor, we'll see if we can re-use it in bitcoin
622 2013-06-03 12:20:02 <warren> hmm, what kind of VM can they run in mac, that would contain mac build tools?
623 2013-06-03 12:20:04 <BlueMatt> (its cross-compiled)
624 2013-06-03 12:20:24 <BlueMatt> some project which pulls out apple's public source patches and compiled them into a xcompiler
625 2013-06-03 12:20:37 <BlueMatt> (linux vm)
626 2013-06-03 12:20:44 <warren> I personally don't see why you necessarily need a VM for this.
627 2013-06-03 12:20:53 <BlueMatt> neither do I
628 2013-06-03 12:21:05 <BlueMatt> as long as it runs in linux, everyone can run it
629 2013-06-03 12:21:19 nowan has joined
630 2013-06-03 12:21:51 <warren> I mean, mac tools to build a standard mac build environment, which you in turn use to build the deterministic mac bitcoin binary
631 2013-06-03 12:21:53 <warren> no VM needed
632 2013-06-03 12:22:09 <BlueMatt> yes, but if it requires a mac, we'll get like...1 developer building?
633 2013-06-03 12:22:10 <BlueMatt> maybe 2
634 2013-06-03 12:22:23 <warren> that's all you have now anyway, Gavin
635 2013-06-03 12:22:29 <BlueMatt> no its not
636 2013-06-03 12:22:29 <warren> my friend is a mac dev wizard
637 2013-06-03 12:22:46 <BlueMatt> for win/linux we get at least 3 per version (or will get...)
638 2013-06-03 12:22:52 <warren> (he also wants to do OpenBSD port official)
639 2013-06-03 12:22:58 <BlueMatt> if we're gonna redo mac builds to be deterministic, we should target at least that
640 2013-06-03 12:23:03 <BlueMatt> which means...compile in linux
641 2013-06-03 12:23:12 <warren> hm
642 2013-06-03 12:23:32 <warren> I suppose it's hilarious enough that the win32 builds are in linux, and win32 builds on windows are unsupported.
643 2013-06-03 12:23:51 <BlueMatt> why would we support windows building?
644 2013-06-03 12:23:54 <BlueMatt> windows is a mess
645 2013-06-03 12:23:58 <buZz> windows should be unsupported anyway, just stop supporting microsoft
646 2013-06-03 12:24:05 <warren> =)
647 2013-06-03 12:24:18 <BlueMatt> we have enough users we have to provide binaries, but building things in windows....noooo
648 2013-06-03 12:24:19 <buZz> 'here is a binary but you will need to buy this 120 usd cd to run it!'
649 2013-06-03 12:24:48 <lianj> buZz: thats the spirit
650 2013-06-03 12:24:56 <warren> mac-hosted deterministic build, you have 2 people capable now? I can be a third.
651 2013-06-03 12:25:16 <kinlo> BlueMatt: I could provide mac builds, gavin too, if we find one more person...
652 2013-06-03 12:25:47 <kinlo> anyway, we need something to cross-build so it can be done using gitian
653 2013-06-03 12:25:49 <BlueMatt> no offense, but I meant >=3 people who are "trusted" devs...I suppose y'all may qualify for that, but for gitian its essentially people who've been around for 2 years as active devs
654 2013-06-03 12:25:56 <warren> BlueMatt: unlike windows, mac devs are more numerous here and actually care about the platform being supported well
655 2013-06-03 12:26:16 <BlueMatt> I have no doubt you can find 100 people to run the builds, which I suppose would be just as good
656 2013-06-03 12:26:19 <lianj> BlueMatt: was just about to mention that. thanks
657 2013-06-03 12:26:23 <BlueMatt> still...having 3 build systems seems like a pain
658 2013-06-03 12:26:23 <warren> it would
659 2013-06-03 12:26:34 <BlueMatt> would be nice to have gitian and thats it
660 2013-06-03 12:26:34 <warren> nah, two build systems
661 2013-06-03 12:26:40 <warren> gitian linux, gitian win32, mac
662 2013-06-03 12:26:43 <BlueMatt> plus because it apparently is entirely possible to xcompile in gitian...
663 2013-06-03 12:27:00 <BlueMatt> (mikeperry got firefox to xcompile, so if he can do that, we can get bitcoin)
664 2013-06-03 12:27:29 <kinlo> BlueMatt: well, gitian also works with "less" trusted users, and I've been around for 2 years :)
665 2013-06-03 12:27:30 <warren> also .... the linux builds in gitian aren't functionally equivalent to native builds ... seems to have nicer GNOME 3 notifications of some type with my native builds. Not sure how I could make that happen in gitian.
666 2013-06-03 12:28:20 seeingidog__ has joined
667 2013-06-03 12:28:32 <BlueMatt> kinlo: yes, just means you need 100 of them :p anyway, I just kinda want to make builds possible for /everyone/ and that means gitian or other linux run
668 2013-06-03 12:28:47 <BlueMatt> warren: possibly due to linking old libs...dunno...
669 2013-06-03 12:29:00 <warren> yes.... can we get rid of lucid? please?
670 2013-06-03 12:29:15 <kinlo> BlueMatt: I fully agree there, we should get mac building underway... I've quickly looked at it, but atm it doesn't seem to be that easy
671 2013-06-03 12:29:43 <kinlo> BlueMatt: don't know where you've found documentation to crosscompile to mac, but everything I find is outdated :/
672 2013-06-03 12:30:12 <kinlo> as in too old to build something usefull for modern mac systems
673 2013-06-03 12:30:15 <warren> challenge: make deterministic cross-compile in gitian the same output as the deterministic mac build =)
674 2013-06-03 12:30:30 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
675 2013-06-03 12:31:15 <BlueMatt> kinlo: yes, you need to ping mikepeery at tor and/or Luke-Jr and the guy who wrote the xcompiler that is being used...
676 2013-06-03 12:31:43 <BlueMatt> kinlo: if you are interested in helping, I can forward you the emails later
677 2013-06-03 12:32:09 <warren> OK, I guess that's a "no" to deterministic mac native builds?
678 2013-06-03 12:32:11 <kinlo> BlueMatt: perhaps I can help, I have some knowledge and I have a mac... feel free to email at kinlo@triplemining.com
679 2013-06-03 12:32:31 <BlueMatt> warren: its better than what we have now, I just think we should target gitian if at all possible
680 2013-06-03 12:32:49 <BlueMatt> kinlo: I wont remember, but if you email me Ill be sure to forward them when I get around to it...
681 2013-06-03 12:33:14 <warren> either way, I need it both here and for sillycoin
682 2013-06-03 12:33:26 <kinlo> me@bluematt.net ? (if this is correct I'm scary good at remembering email addresses)
683 2013-06-03 12:33:59 <warren> ok, seriously sleeping now...
684 2013-06-03 12:34:06 <warren> sipa: working on win32 sec256kp1 later this week
685 2013-06-03 12:34:06 grau has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
686 2013-06-03 12:34:52 fathead has joined
687 2013-06-03 12:35:16 <t7> use opencl :D
688 2013-06-03 12:36:15 zer0def has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
689 2013-06-03 12:37:03 moroz has joined
690 2013-06-03 12:37:39 <jonass> BlueMatt does the pulltester has a merge issue? or is there suddenly something wrong in the pull reqs.? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2651 https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2613
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693 2013-06-03 12:38:52 <BlueMatt> kinlo: me@bluematt.me
694 2013-06-03 12:39:10 <kinlo> right, thanks :)
695 2013-06-03 12:40:18 <BlueMatt> jonass: I dunno, have you tried rebaseing onto master?
696 2013-06-03 12:45:45 Maxvalor has joined
697 2013-06-03 12:46:02 <jonass> BlueMatt no? let me play with it. Just thought because to pull had merge problems?
698 2013-06-03 12:48:46 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
699 2013-06-03 12:48:58 <BlueMatt> I dunno why it would...
700 2013-06-03 12:50:51 <jonass> Bluematt my fault. Qt5 changes came across...
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724 2013-06-03 13:52:09 <funky2> can I send btc out from machine where all incoming ports are closed?
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729 2013-06-03 14:00:38 <helo> funky2: sure
730 2013-06-03 14:01:15 <helo> funky2: you just won't be available to be a 'syncing' node for others
731 2013-06-03 14:04:35 robocoin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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735 2013-06-03 14:07:24 <funky2> helo so say person a sends me coins, chain knows about it, i can send them to person b without sync?
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738 2013-06-03 14:13:14 <Ry4an> funky2: in absolute sense, definitely. The client you're using to send them may or may not let you, but it's a valid transaction.
739 2013-06-03 14:15:33 patcon has joined
740 2013-06-03 14:15:58 <helo> funky2: you will be able to get synched without incoming connections, you just won't be able to help others sync
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750 2013-06-03 14:24:56 <funky2> thanks
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842 2013-06-03 16:15:45 <runeks> Anyone here running bitcoind on an Amazon EC2 micro instance?
843 2013-06-03 16:15:59 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
844 2013-06-03 16:16:53 <maaku> micro instances can be a bitch because of cpu-stealing
845 2013-06-03 16:18:03 <runeks> But they're free for one year :)
846 2013-06-03 16:18:05 Tantadruj has joined
847 2013-06-03 16:18:06 <runeks> That's a big plus.
848 2013-06-03 16:18:15 <runeks> maaku: What exactly do you mean by "CPU stealing" though?
849 2013-06-03 16:19:05 <maaku> http://www.krenger.ch/blog/amazon-ec2-micro-cpu-performance/
850 2013-06-03 16:21:39 michagogo has joined
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857 2013-06-03 16:26:19 <maaku> there's a reason they're free ;)
858 2013-06-03 16:27:09 <runeks> maaku: So does this matter for bitcoind. It's hardly a CPU muncher.
859 2013-06-03 16:27:16 <runeks> Yeah, and not just free, but free*
860 2013-06-03 16:28:58 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
861 2013-06-03 16:30:03 <maaku> it's not just cpu - it's pretty much all resources (and bitcoind can consume significant CPU when validating)
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865 2013-06-03 16:30:32 <maaku> you can make it work, just don't expect consistent performance
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870 2013-06-03 16:35:07 <yubrew> i have bitcoind running on digitalocean $5/mo droplet
871 2013-06-03 16:35:08 <runeks> maaku: That's cool. I'm not going to do demanding work on it.
872 2013-06-03 16:35:30 <yubrew> add swap and it works alright
873 2013-06-03 16:35:55 <runeks> yubrew: How do you do initial sync? Just let it sync and eat up bandwidth, or scp block chain files to it and do a -reindex?
874 2013-06-03 16:36:07 phebus has joined
875 2013-06-03 16:36:25 <michagogo> If you already have a trusted node, you can even just copy over the index
876 2013-06-03 16:37:12 msvb has joined
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878 2013-06-03 16:37:23 <runeks> michagogo: Oh, right. I'll do that I think.
879 2013-06-03 16:37:58 <msvb> Hello folks.
880 2013-06-03 16:38:13 <runeks> Hmm. Although that's ~11GB of data on my 1mbit upload link :\
881 2013-06-03 16:38:30 <runeks> Only 32 hours.
882 2013-06-03 16:38:47 abrkn has joined
883 2013-06-03 16:38:53 <michagogo> runeks: [19:12:15] <runeks> yubrew: How do you do initial sync? Just let it sync and eat up bandwidth, or scp block chain files to it and do a -reindex?
884 2013-06-03 16:39:02 <michagogo> runeks: The blockchain files are the big ones
885 2013-06-03 16:39:12 <runeks> Right.
886 2013-06-03 16:39:15 abrkn has quit (Client Quit)
887 2013-06-03 16:39:31 <maaku> runeks: sync with an ec2 hosted node
888 2013-06-03 16:39:44 <runeks> maaku: What do you mean?
889 2013-06-03 16:39:49 funky2 has joined
890 2013-06-03 16:39:58 <runeks> How do I find one?
891 2013-06-03 16:40:09 <maaku> by IP, or by asking around
892 2013-06-03 16:40:21 <runeks> Anyone have an EC2 bitcoind node I can sync from?
893 2013-06-03 16:40:36 <runeks> maaku: Is the traffic free if it's EC2 instance to EC2 instance?
894 2013-06-03 16:40:45 <maaku> it's much, much cheaper
895 2013-06-03 16:40:51 <yubrew> michagogo let it eat up bandwidth
896 2013-06-03 16:41:05 <michagogo> yubrew: I wasn
897 2013-06-03 16:41:07 <michagogo> 't asking
898 2013-06-03 16:41:09 <yubrew> i guess i could ftp the file over or something like that
899 2013-06-03 16:41:35 <yubrew> oh oops haha sry
900 2013-06-03 16:42:44 <yubrew> ec2 to ec2 seems like a much better solution
901 2013-06-03 16:43:41 grau has joined
902 2013-06-03 16:44:30 Chuky has joined
903 2013-06-03 16:45:56 <runeks> So how angry would Amazon get if I portscan my machine's IP/16 for instances listening on port 8333?
904 2013-06-03 16:46:53 <gonffen> what if you just check blockchain.info's peer list?
905 2013-06-03 16:46:55 grau_ has joined
906 2013-06-03 16:47:03 <runeks> gonffen: Good idea!
907 2013-06-03 16:48:40 <runeks> gonffen: You're a genius! There are plenty.
908 2013-06-03 16:48:43 <maaku> or `dig dnsseed.bluematt.me` until you hit one in amazon's IP range
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912 2013-06-03 16:51:23 <ThomasV> maaku: patricia tree is implemented in storage.py, see add_address() and delete_address()
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943 2013-06-03 17:06:38 <runeks> Will I get any advantage from connecting to multiple nodes during block sync? I recall reading that only one node is used (or was used) for the initial sync.
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946 2013-06-03 17:08:32 <sipa> runeks: no
947 2013-06-03 17:09:05 <maaku> ThomasV: yes, I saw that after you posted. It matters less whether utxo's are using a trie, as large per-script utxo lists are the exception not the rule
948 2013-06-03 17:09:29 <runeks> sipa: Ok. I guess I'll manage with the 1MB/s I was getting before :)
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951 2013-06-03 17:09:53 <sipa> runeks: which is why i don't like throttling solutions at the bandwidth level, as it hurts the receiver a lot
952 2013-06-03 17:10:04 phebus has quit (Quit: POKE 1,0)
953 2013-06-03 17:10:15 Maxvalor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
954 2013-06-03 17:10:17 <funky2> when I send coins does standard bitcoind sends IP along or not?
955 2013-06-03 17:10:19 <sipa> runeks: i much more prefer throttling by disconnecting peers that ask too much of you, so they get select a better sync peer
956 2013-06-03 17:10:23 Maxvalor has joined
957 2013-06-03 17:10:29 <runeks> sipa: Makes sense. So you'll not appreciate my recent commit :)
958 2013-06-03 17:10:37 <sipa> runeks: at this point, no
959 2013-06-03 17:10:51 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
960 2013-06-03 17:11:02 <sipa> (i'm not against throttling in general, but because of how sync works right now, i don't think it's the best solution)
961 2013-06-03 17:11:31 <maaku> funky2: no, but don't assume you're anonymous unless you're connected through tor
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965 2013-06-03 17:12:08 <sipa> funky2: bitcoin transaction don't _contain_ IP addresses, but that doesn't mean someone can't figure it out
966 2013-06-03 17:12:25 <runeks> sipa: Fair enough. I didn't make it for it to be distributed with bitcoin in any case. I made it cause it's necessary for me to limit bandwidth in my setup. My ADSL line becomes unusable when it's uploading at ~100KB/s, and I think having bitcoind running constantly is more helpful than giving out my full bandwidth at select times.
967 2013-06-03 17:12:48 <sipa> runeks: in that case i'd just advise you to run with -nolisten
968 2013-06-03 17:13:00 <sipa> runeks: it will reduce the peers downloading from you dramatically
969 2013-06-03 17:13:10 wallet43 has joined
970 2013-06-03 17:13:56 <funky2> what is no listen? means u are not acting as synching peer?
971 2013-06-03 17:13:59 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
972 2013-06-03 17:14:09 <sipa> at some point we'll add support to the P2P protocol for not serving historical blocks (which is necessary for pruned nodes)
973 2013-06-03 17:14:11 <runeks> sipa: But that's not what I want. I want to prevent bitcoind from consuming my entire upload bandwidth. I should probably do some more intelligent QoS'ing, but this is as far as my skills in tc/iptables go currently.
974 2013-06-03 17:14:32 <maaku> runeks: use -nolisten
975 2013-06-03 17:14:42 <maaku> it means others can't connect to you
976 2013-06-03 17:14:52 <sipa> runeks: the right solution would be setting your bitcoind to don't serve historical blocks once a bandwidth limit is reached
977 2013-06-03 17:14:53 <funky2> yumm
978 2013-06-03 17:14:54 <runeks> maaku: I know. How does that help the network if everyone uses that?
979 2013-06-03 17:15:04 ThomasV has quit (Quit: Leaving)
980 2013-06-03 17:15:20 <maaku> it doesn't, but if you're not capible of running a full node..
981 2013-06-03 17:15:37 <sipa> runeks: it helps much more than just very very slowly serving peers who need to download it anyway
982 2013-06-03 17:15:42 <runeks> maaku: I am with the bandwidth cap on.
983 2013-06-03 17:15:46 <sipa> it's better for both you and them that they just select another peer
984 2013-06-03 17:16:07 <runeks> sipa: Yeah I can see that. How do I not serve historical blocks?
985 2013-06-03 17:16:17 <sipa> runeks: the P2P protocol doesn't support that right now
986 2013-06-03 17:16:26 <sipa> the best approximation is -nolisten
987 2013-06-03 17:16:32 <BlueMatt> run a thin client...
988 2013-06-03 17:16:35 <runeks> sipa: Ok. I see the issue.
989 2013-06-03 17:16:36 <BlueMatt> s/thin/spv/
990 2013-06-03 17:16:38 <sipa> as almost all block syncing is done by the connecting peer
991 2013-06-03 17:16:54 <sipa> if you advertize yourself as a serving peer, you're just stalling others trying to sync
992 2013-06-03 17:17:08 <runeks> sipa: Yeah, that makes sense. I will use a cap and -nolisten then.
993 2013-06-03 17:17:21 <sipa> but many VPS/hosted environments have tons of bandwidth
994 2013-06-03 17:17:27 TD has quit (Quit: TD)
995 2013-06-03 17:17:29 <sipa> while mnay home users have very little
996 2013-06-03 17:17:58 <sipa> BlueMatt: he wants to help the network
997 2013-06-03 17:18:28 <runeks> sipa: If I can figure out exactly how much bandwidth/mo the free Amazon EC2 Micro instance has, I'll set the limit to that.
998 2013-06-03 17:19:31 shesek has joined
999 2013-06-03 17:19:35 <sipa> is there any way to configure the firewall to randomly disconnect connections instead of throttling them?
1000 2013-06-03 17:19:55 iwilcox_ has joined
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1004 2013-06-03 17:20:52 <runeks> sipa: What do you mean by "randomly disconnect"?
1005 2013-06-03 17:21:14 <BlueMatt> verifying blocks and not listening wont really help all that much...
1006 2013-06-03 17:21:19 <sipa> just drop the TCP connection
1007 2013-06-03 17:21:24 <sipa> instead of slowing it down
1008 2013-06-03 17:21:37 <BlueMatt> its iptables...you can do whatever the hell you can dream up
1009 2013-06-03 17:21:48 <runeks> sipa: Right, it can definitely do that, but I'm not sure if it accepts randomness...
1010 2013-06-03 17:21:48 iwilcox has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1011 2013-06-03 17:21:58 <sipa> doesn't even need to be random
1012 2013-06-03 17:22:07 <sipa> whatever connection makes you go over the limit, drop it
1013 2013-06-03 17:22:26 <runeks> Seems like the free t1.micro instance has 15GB/mo of bandwidth.
1014 2013-06-03 17:22:54 <sipa> i'm already at 400 GB of upload after 19 days...
1015 2013-06-03 17:23:14 <funky2> lol
1016 2013-06-03 17:23:24 <funky2> its costly gb there
1017 2013-06-03 17:23:58 <runeks> Yeah. 15GB seems like a lot. But not when you're on a 100mbit link. Or whatever they use.
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1020 2013-06-03 17:29:40 <funky2> hehe
1021 2013-06-03 17:31:47 <funky2> can I somehow make wallet to send coins based on some conditions? say it reads some site api and if dow jones is down 10% it then send coins
1022 2013-06-03 17:32:09 <funky2> some kind of digital contracts tied up to independent data
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1028 2013-06-03 17:37:58 <shesek> funky2, you can send transactions with with the json-rpc API
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1045 2013-06-03 17:52:55 <runeks> Ok. I figured out the bandwidth quota stuff.
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1047 2013-06-03 17:55:34 <runeks> Just put this script in /etc/cron.monthly/ and it will limit the monthly bandwidth of Bitcoin connections (source or dest. port == 8333) to 14GB per month: http://pastebin.com/iM71GbjJ
1048 2013-06-03 17:55:59 da2ce7_d has joined
1049 2013-06-03 17:56:50 <runeks> Hmm. Except this allows 14GB/mo for *both* to and from port 8333. Need to work on that.
1050 2013-06-03 17:58:38 Maxvalor has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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1053 2013-06-03 17:59:24 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
1054 2013-06-03 17:59:32 <funky2> how the heck someone hacked instawallet hmm
1055 2013-06-03 17:59:46 <funky2> if users use pass phrase its impossible to use wallet dat
1056 2013-06-03 18:00:11 tyn has joined
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1058 2013-06-03 18:04:23 <funky2> From what I understand, they don't have access to the private keys on their own servers, but if someone took control of their server and started injecting malicious JS, the private keys could be sniffed.
1059 2013-06-03 18:05:28 chorao has joined
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1061 2013-06-03 18:07:26 <ne0futur> runeks: just limiting the number of connections could be enough to scale the bandwidth usage
1062 2013-06-03 18:07:48 iwilcox has joined
1063 2013-06-03 18:07:52 <runeks> ne0futur: Could be. But it's nice to be on the safe side if you're paying for bandwidth.
1064 2013-06-03 18:08:09 funky3 has joined
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1067 2013-06-03 18:11:55 <nsh> browser crypto: it's foolproof
1068 2013-06-03 18:12:27 Cylta has joined
1069 2013-06-03 18:12:43 <Cylta> hi. Is there a freebsd version of bitcoin-qt satoshi client?
1070 2013-06-03 18:12:51 tmsk has joined
1071 2013-06-03 18:12:55 <funky3> nsh: lol means?
1072 2013-06-03 18:13:39 <nsh> ;;title http://www.matasano.com/articles/javascript-cryptography/
1073 2013-06-03 18:13:39 <gribble> Error: This url is not on the whitelist.
1074 2013-06-03 18:13:42 <nsh> eat a dick
1075 2013-06-03 18:13:48 <nsh> (Javascript Cryptography Considered Harmful)
1076 2013-06-03 18:14:08 * funky3 I repead this dick is not on the list
1077 2013-06-03 18:14:10 <funky3> :P
1078 2013-06-03 18:14:13 * nsh smiles
1079 2013-06-03 18:14:14 <funky3> *repeat
1080 2013-06-03 18:15:08 <nsh> synopsis: crypto in the browser gives you all the feeling of security with none of the pesky assurances
1081 2013-06-03 18:16:31 Jasmin68k has joined
1082 2013-06-03 18:16:40 <funky3> hackadelic crypto
1083 2013-06-03 18:16:44 <nsh> addendum: Nadim Kobeissi got a B in maths last semester
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1087 2013-06-03 18:20:11 <funky3> can I somehow send ssl api call with wallet password to remote wallett?
1088 2013-06-03 18:20:26 darksk1ez has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1095 2013-06-03 18:25:44 <maaku> sipa: is CTxOutCompressor deterministic / well-defined?
1096 2013-06-03 18:26:11 <funky3> http://www.coindesk.com/carbonwallet-offers-new-way-to-store-bitcoins/
1097 2013-06-03 18:27:12 peetaur2 has joined
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1100 2013-06-03 18:32:09 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1101 2013-06-03 18:33:44 <runeks> Ok. I totally figured it out.
1102 2013-06-03 18:34:02 <runeks> This script will limit the bandwidth to Bitcoin nodes to 14GB: http://pastebin.com/q6NpwDmF
1103 2013-06-03 18:34:30 <runeks> So just run it once every month and you should be good for a free Amazon EC2 Micro instance.
1104 2013-06-03 18:35:09 <runeks> Make sure to run bitcoind with -nolisten, or it will keep trying to establish connections to Bitcoin nodes, even after the quota is met.
1105 2013-06-03 18:36:27 <funky3> tyty
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1111 2013-06-03 18:38:19 <sipa> maaku: yes
1112 2013-06-03 18:38:23 <sipa> maaku: both
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1164 2013-06-03 19:35:46 <funky2> what is most secure exchange mtgox?
1165 2013-06-03 19:36:19 <gdbz> try to hack, see which one is.
1166 2013-06-03 19:36:28 <funky2> lol I dunno how to
1167 2013-06-03 19:36:41 <gdbz> how can we known witch one is the most secure :p
1168 2013-06-03 19:36:59 <gdbz> which*
1169 2013-06-03 19:37:13 <funky2> hmm using logic
1170 2013-06-03 19:37:48 chorao has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1171 2013-06-03 19:37:55 <gdbz> MtGox is reliable, but bitstamp is also
1172 2013-06-03 19:38:14 <funky2> gbbz is there a way for me to send command to hot wallet on remote server with my passphrase via ssl?
1173 2013-06-03 19:38:55 <runeks> funky2: What do you want to do exactly?
1174 2013-06-03 19:39:08 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
1175 2013-06-03 19:39:14 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: FWIW, rebasing is anti-decentralization
1176 2013-06-03 19:39:17 anarchy5 has joined
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1178 2013-06-03 19:39:45 <Luke-Jr> not that it makes merges any less ugly in git â¹
1179 2013-06-03 19:39:50 <funky2> I am toying with ideas of exchanges security :)
1180 2013-06-03 19:40:06 <gdbz> funky2: https://bitbucket.org/nitrous/mtgox-api/overview
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1182 2013-06-03 19:40:53 rbecker is now known as RBecker
1183 2013-06-03 19:41:02 <funky2> maybe tonal pass , you have to sing in :D
1184 2013-06-03 19:41:02 capuchin has joined
1185 2013-06-03 19:41:02 <funky2> hehe
1186 2013-06-03 19:42:22 <funky2> i think if bitcoinica used manual withdrawal they would of been fine
1187 2013-06-03 19:42:27 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1188 2013-06-03 19:42:29 <funky2> I just read about them
1189 2013-06-03 19:42:49 <funky2> simply hire people like in the bank to manually process withdrawals
1190 2013-06-03 19:43:06 <helo> they lost a huge amount of bitcoin too though
1191 2013-06-03 19:44:12 <funky2> helo I am thinking any ways to talk to wallet server can be replicated expect manual
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1198 2013-06-03 19:59:18 <maaku> etotheipi_: wouldn't scriptPubKeys be stored twice, once in the txindex, once in the utxoindex?
1199 2013-06-03 20:00:38 <helo> funky2: i've always thought exchagnes should require signmessage of any transfer requests
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1204 2013-06-03 20:06:51 <funky2> helo how would that work, person manually sign message ?
1205 2013-06-03 20:07:41 <funky2> i had `similar` idea using pgp signature lol
1206 2013-06-03 20:08:13 * nsh revokes funky2's punctuation privileges
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1210 2013-06-03 20:10:38 <etotheipi_> maaku: you might have a point
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1214 2013-06-03 20:11:20 <etotheipi_> maaku: I was thinking that the address tree would be standalone, but of course it would simply be a secondary index that points to the already-present UTXOs in the tx-index
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1216 2013-06-03 20:11:45 <sipa> that's not necessarily better
1217 2013-06-03 20:11:51 <sipa> depending on how you index
1218 2013-06-03 20:12:11 <sipa> as txid-indexed UTXOs have a txid:vout index, which is 36 bytes
1219 2013-06-03 20:12:14 grau has joined
1220 2013-06-03 20:12:18 <sipa> much larger than the average UTXO itself
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1222 2013-06-03 20:13:07 <sipa> so duplicating the UTXOs in both txid-indexed and script-indexed trees may be both more compact and more efficient
1223 2013-06-03 20:13:12 <etotheipi_> sipa: would it be irresponsible to index by 12- or 16-byte TxIDs?
1224 2013-06-03 20:13:20 <etotheipi_> the uniqueness will be maintained
1225 2013-06-03 20:13:24 <sipa> 16 should be fine, imho
1226 2013-06-03 20:14:14 <maaku> sipa: the scriptPubKey -> UTXO index needs the txid:n pairs though, as that's what a wallet uses to make transactions
1227 2013-06-03 20:14:34 <sipa> maaku: good point!
1228 2013-06-03 20:14:34 <maaku> the question is whether it should be keyed by scriptPubKey or (truncated?) hash(scriptPubKey)
1229 2013-06-03 20:14:47 <sipa> hash of the scriptpubkey, imho
1230 2013-06-03 20:15:01 <sipa> why would you bother dealing with variable-length data?
1231 2013-06-03 20:15:33 denisx has quit (Quit: denisx)
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1233 2013-06-03 20:15:59 <etotheipi_> sipa: because with a level-compressed trie, the length doesn't matter
1234 2013-06-03 20:16:19 <etotheipi_> but if you maintain the UTXO scripts in that tree... if you use the raw script... you don't need to store it in the leaf *value*, only the key
1235 2013-06-03 20:16:38 <sipa> interesting
1236 2013-06-03 20:16:42 ielo has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1237 2013-06-03 20:16:49 <sipa> hadn't thought about it that way
1238 2013-06-03 20:17:07 <sipa> so you'd really have a scriptPubKey -> [(txid:n)] map
1239 2013-06-03 20:17:14 <sipa> oh
1240 2013-06-03 20:17:24 <maaku> yes
1241 2013-06-03 20:17:36 <sipa> scriptPubKey -> [(txid:n,amount,fCoinbase,nHeight)]
1242 2013-06-03 20:17:40 <sipa> probably
1243 2013-06-03 20:17:44 <maaku> well, yes :)
1244 2013-06-03 20:17:54 <sipa> yes, that makes sense
1245 2013-06-03 20:17:56 <petertodd> etotheipi_: Have you thought about proof size? We don't want a lot of merkle path wasted on trivially different scriptPubKey's
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1248 2013-06-03 20:18:27 <sipa> petertodd: hmm?
1249 2013-06-03 20:18:32 <etotheipi_> petertodd: yes... there's not a lot of overhead keying the tree that way
1250 2013-06-03 20:19:05 <maaku> sipa: but unfortunately you need the scriptPubKey for validation too, so it needs to be accessible in the regular txindex too. hence the duplication
1251 2013-06-03 20:19:06 meLon has joined
1252 2013-06-03 20:19:30 <petertodd> sipa, etotheipi_: I should be able to construct a short proof consisting of the txid stuff with a merkle path leading to the block header, and the size of that proof should not depend on the actions of others.
1253 2013-06-03 20:19:49 <sipa> for a patricia tree the depth is always limited in any case
1254 2013-06-03 20:19:58 <sipa> well, not for variable-length keys...
1255 2013-06-03 20:20:05 <petertodd> sipa: Exactly
1256 2013-06-03 20:20:32 <sipa> it's still bounded by the script size you choose youself
1257 2013-06-03 20:20:36 <maaku> sipa: but it an 'attacker' (what would they be attacking?) couldn't extend the length of the key
1258 2013-06-03 20:20:42 <maaku> yes
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1262 2013-06-03 20:21:46 <petertodd> sipa: Seems undesirable frankly. Consider the case of a bare OP_CHECKMULTISIG where someone could easilly drasticly extend my proof size by creating a scriptPubKey duplicating the first part.
1263 2013-06-03 20:22:16 <sipa> petertodd: use P2SH
1264 2013-06-03 20:23:41 <sipa> and drastically extend... yes, but it's still bounded by something you choose
1265 2013-06-03 20:24:07 <petertodd> sipa: Lovely... Why not just do that tiny extra bit of computation then and compute Hash160(scriptPubKey)?
1266 2013-06-03 20:24:28 <petertodd> sipa: I'd hate for us to find out down the road this was a big mistake; just seems to cute to be a good idea.
1267 2013-06-03 20:24:52 wizkid057 has joined
1268 2013-06-03 20:25:16 <sipa> i find the idea of not needing to store the scriptpubkey a second time in full nice
1269 2013-06-03 20:25:41 <petertodd> Why do we have to store it twice?
1270 2013-06-03 20:25:49 <petertodd> Or do you mean scriptPubKey + hash?
1271 2013-06-03 20:25:52 <sipa> because you need the output script
1272 2013-06-03 20:25:56 <maaku> petertodd: by manipulating the scriptPubKey to put the hash(pubkey)/p2sh data out front, you can use the data structure to lookup scripts by address, even if there's prefixed OP_DROP messages
1273 2013-06-03 20:26:41 <maaku> and you store it twice because there's two indices: one scriptPubKey -> txid:n, and an authenticated version of the usual ultraprune index
1274 2013-06-03 20:26:55 <petertodd> maaku: I'm skeptical that's worth it. Remember that we'll eventually use this UTXO stuff for important stuff like fraud proofs, where proof size matters.
1275 2013-06-03 20:27:22 <maaku> i am skeptical as well, but i see merits for both
1276 2013-06-03 20:27:50 <maaku> proof size can't be arbitrarily extended - it's worse-case a constant factor of the length of the script you choose
1277 2013-06-03 20:28:06 <petertodd> The attacker may be chosing the script in the case of someone wanting to mess up a UTXO fraud proof.
1278 2013-06-03 20:28:11 <petertodd> *choosing
1279 2013-06-03 20:28:15 <sipa> if it were up to me, P2SH would be the only supported way of doing transactions in the first place
1280 2013-06-03 20:28:27 <maaku> sipa: agreed
1281 2013-06-03 20:28:31 <petertodd> Now they can make them as long as 10k * whatever constant.
1282 2013-06-03 20:28:56 <petertodd> Heh, see, I'm skeptical about that too because marking transactions with data is a important use-case for a lot of protocols.
1283 2013-06-03 20:29:14 <BlueMatt> kinlo: yea, best bet is to ask Luke-Jr how far they got and mikeperry on #tor-dev on OFTC
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1285 2013-06-03 20:29:38 <sipa> petertodd: maybe
1286 2013-06-03 20:29:44 <sipa> i'm not convinced about that
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1288 2013-06-03 20:29:55 <etotheipi_> petertodd: the proof size is bounded by your own decision to bound your script sizes... someone who puts a 10 kB script near your branch is not causing you any trouble
1289 2013-06-03 20:29:56 <BlueMatt> kinlo: they were working on using https://github.com/javacom/toolchain4 in gitian
1290 2013-06-03 20:30:35 <BlueMatt> kinlo: (there is an email thread, but its somewhat long and its a few days stale, so no idea where they actually are in getting it to work)
1291 2013-06-03 20:31:06 <BlueMatt> sipa: lets make everything but p2sh non-standard in 0.9
1292 2013-06-03 20:31:09 <BlueMatt> or...maybe 1.0
1293 2013-06-03 20:31:30 <petertodd> etotheipi_: Again, fraud proof stuff. The attacker creates a bunch of 10kB script txouts, then watches as everyone chokes on the huge proof required.
1294 2013-06-03 20:31:49 <petertodd> etotheipi_: Having such a massive difference between normal and worst case seems really bad to me.
1295 2013-06-03 20:31:53 <maaku> imho p2sh should be the only scriptPubKey... if you want data on the block chain, put it in a scriptSig
1296 2013-06-03 20:31:53 <etotheipi_> petertodd: the PATRCIA tree is level compressed...
1297 2013-06-03 20:32:33 <etotheipi_> so that 10 kB minus 25 bytes difference is exactly one hop
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1299 2013-06-03 20:32:55 <petertodd> etotheipi_: Yes, that's why I said creates a bunch, each with differences down the line.
1300 2013-06-03 20:33:39 <petertodd> That's 10k transactions basically, no big deal.
1301 2013-06-03 20:33:49 <etotheipi_> petertodd: I see your point, and I might concede to it... but I need to think about it...
1302 2013-06-03 20:34:38 <sipa> petertodd: i'm still not convinced about any use case where you actually need to store data in the chain (as opposed to proving that it commits to some piece of data)... but i'm not up-to-date with all the stuff you talk about either
1303 2013-06-03 20:34:57 <petertodd> etotheipi_: Again, I'm *really* hesitant to have a ~300x difference in normal to worst case size...
1304 2013-06-03 20:35:22 <etotheipi_> petertodd: I understand that concern
1305 2013-06-03 20:36:31 intx has joined
1306 2013-06-03 20:38:37 <petertodd> sipa: It makes it a lot easier to do auditing in many cases, where OP_CHECKMULTISIG, for example, lets you easily see where funds are even when they're being semi-controlled by others, without requiring extensive communication.
1307 2013-06-03 20:38:52 <petertodd> sipa: Of course, that exact example is incompatible with the UTXO stuff I'm advocating. :P
1308 2013-06-03 20:39:04 <BlueMatt> ;;seen jgarzik
1309 2013-06-03 20:39:04 <gribble> jgarzik was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 2 days, 23 hours, 20 minutes, and 43 seconds ago: <jgarzik> plus writeback scheduling in the OS
1310 2013-06-03 20:43:17 tyn has joined
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1312 2013-06-03 20:45:59 <nsh> NSA'd
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1314 2013-06-03 20:48:50 <Ry4an> I hope that's a home star runner reference.
1315 2013-06-03 20:50:45 <nsh> everything is
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1367 2013-06-03 22:04:09 <B0g4r7> Hi guyz. Why does my bitcoin-qt sometimes become unresponsive and use 100% CPU for tens of seconds at a time?
1368 2013-06-03 22:04:23 <Luke-Jr> p2pool?
1369 2013-06-03 22:04:43 <B0g4r7> neg
1370 2013-06-03 22:05:01 <phantomcircuit> B0g4r7, large wallet?
1371 2013-06-03 22:05:02 <B0g4r7> I'm running 0.8.1 on OS X 10.6.8 on a q6600 system with 8GB of ram and an SSD.
1372 2013-06-03 22:05:11 GordonG3kko has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1373 2013-06-03 22:05:19 <B0g4r7> 259 transactions.
1374 2013-06-03 22:05:32 <Luke-Jr> B0g4r7: any kind of poolserver or anything else that would call getblocktemplate?
1375 2013-06-03 22:05:34 <phantomcircuit> yes but is there a large number of keys?
1376 2013-06-03 22:05:42 GordonG3kko has joined
1377 2013-06-03 22:05:58 <B0g4r7> There may be some things calling getwork of getblocktemplate, come to think of it. Will that do that?
1378 2013-06-03 22:06:03 <B0g4r7> or
1379 2013-06-03 22:06:27 <B0g4r7> Shouldn't be a ton of keys. A few dozen probably.
1380 2013-06-03 22:06:31 random_cat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1381 2013-06-03 22:06:36 <phantomcircuit> lol
1382 2013-06-03 22:06:43 <phantomcircuit> ssh root@
1383 2013-06-03 22:06:49 <phantomcircuit> Display all 300 possibilities
1384 2013-06-03 22:06:54 <MC1984> B0g4r7 processblock
1385 2013-06-03 22:06:54 <phantomcircuit> oh god
1386 2013-06-03 22:08:40 <sipa> B0g4r7: first of all, what are you doing?
1387 2013-06-03 22:09:28 <B0g4r7> Just sending payments.
1388 2013-06-03 22:09:33 <B0g4r7> and receiving.
1389 2013-06-03 22:09:33 <sipa> not mining?
1390 2013-06-03 22:09:41 <sipa> anything using rpc at all?
1391 2013-06-03 22:10:11 random_cat has joined
1392 2013-06-03 22:10:34 <B0g4r7> Not really.
1393 2013-06-03 22:10:51 <B0g4r7> I think I have some miners calling it tho, failing over to it.
1394 2013-06-03 22:10:54 <B0g4r7> Checking on that now.
1395 2013-06-03 22:10:57 <sipa> ...
1396 2013-06-03 22:11:04 <B0g4r7> There was one for sure.
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1400 2013-06-03 22:12:58 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: what happened to your 0.8.2 sigs?
1401 2013-06-03 22:13:02 <BlueMatt> I see none in gitian.sigs
1402 2013-06-03 22:13:07 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: O.o
1403 2013-06-03 22:13:10 provisobot_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1404 2013-06-03 22:13:19 gjj has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1405 2013-06-03 22:13:22 <BlueMatt> oh, forgot to reset
1406 2013-06-03 22:13:23 <BlueMatt> sorry
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1418 2013-06-03 22:25:01 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: ok, new question, why is the pgp key in contrib/gitian-downloader not the same one you are using to sign?
1419 2013-06-03 22:25:09 nospinzy has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1420 2013-06-03 22:25:18 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: it's not?
1421 2013-06-03 22:25:20 mrkent has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1422 2013-06-03 22:25:44 <BlueMatt> I get gpg: Can't check signature: No public key trying to verify your sig, but I just imported the one there (and already had it)
1423 2013-06-03 22:25:45 cads has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1424 2013-06-03 22:25:58 <Luke-Jr> which one do you have?
1425 2013-06-03 22:26:19 helo is now known as danieldaniel_
1426 2013-06-03 22:26:23 danieldaniel_ is now known as helo
1427 2013-06-03 22:26:26 <BlueMatt> gpg: key 21F4889F: "Luke Dashjr <luke@dashjr.org>" not changed
1428 2013-06-03 22:26:45 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
1429 2013-06-03 22:26:58 * Luke-Jr kicks gitian
1430 2013-06-03 22:27:02 cads has joined
1431 2013-06-03 22:27:04 <Luke-Jr> no idea why it's signing from my old key
1432 2013-06-03 22:27:32 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: ^
1433 2013-06-03 22:27:53 provisobot has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1434 2013-06-03 22:28:18 resinate has quit (Quit: resinate)
1435 2013-06-03 22:28:22 <BlueMatt> because you specified the wrong key?
1436 2013-06-03 22:28:27 <BlueMatt> what is your old key's id?
1437 2013-06-03 22:29:34 cads has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1438 2013-06-03 22:31:02 cads has joined
1439 2013-06-03 22:31:20 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: D53E9583
1440 2013-06-03 22:31:25 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: gitian doesn't ask me what key
1441 2013-06-03 22:31:38 <sipa> gitian passes the 'signer' argument to gpg
1442 2013-06-03 22:31:46 <sipa> to figure out the key to sign with
1443 2013-06-03 22:31:49 <sipa> not sure how it works
1444 2013-06-03 22:31:58 <sipa> or what it does in case of ambiguity
1445 2013-06-03 22:32:27 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: I dont see it on any keyservers...
1446 2013-06-03 22:32:32 cads has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
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1449 2013-06-03 22:32:45 <BlueMatt> meh, whatever, weve got 3...
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1458 2013-06-03 22:36:23 <Goonie_> Luke-Jr: it would be useful if your "branches.html" would contain sub-versions in the chart. To see e.g. 0.8.2 vs rest.
1459 2013-06-03 22:36:50 <BlueMatt> we only sign the setup? I thought we signed bitcoin-qt.exe too?
1460 2013-06-03 22:37:13 <sipa> we do, afaik
1461 2013-06-03 22:37:17 <Luke-Jr> Goonie_: to show every little version would get cluttered, I think?
1462 2013-06-03 22:37:33 <BlueMatt> well, unless gitian signed it, we didnt for 0.8.2
1463 2013-06-03 22:37:40 <Luke-Jr> whatever, I can't figure out how to tell GPG to only use my new key with -u
1464 2013-06-03 22:37:48 gjj has joined
1465 2013-06-03 22:37:53 <sipa> BlueMatt: wait, are you talking about the OS signing stuff?
1466 2013-06-03 22:37:55 <sipa> or gitian?
1467 2013-06-03 22:37:57 <BlueMatt> os
1468 2013-06-03 22:38:00 McKay has joined
1469 2013-06-03 22:38:03 <sipa> only the installer there
1470 2013-06-03 22:38:11 <BlueMatt> ok, yea, I was just surprised
1471 2013-06-03 22:38:19 <sipa> it'd be very hard to get the inner binary signed by gitian
1472 2013-06-03 22:38:24 <sipa> without the key...
1473 2013-06-03 22:38:42 <BlueMatt> ahh, yes...
1474 2013-06-03 22:38:53 <Luke-Jr> now we just need OS to adopt gitianâ¦
1475 2013-06-03 22:38:57 <sipa> the obvious way around would be building the installer outside of gitian, but that slightly defeats the purpose
1476 2013-06-03 22:39:00 tyn has joined
1477 2013-06-03 22:39:08 <Goonie_> BlueMatt: well a .99 could round the number before up, so 0.8.1.99 would be equivalent to 0.8.2
1478 2013-06-03 22:39:12 random_cat has joined
1479 2013-06-03 22:39:20 <Goonie_> sorry I meant Luke-Jr
1480 2013-06-03 22:39:30 <BlueMatt> sipa: yea
1481 2013-06-03 22:39:43 * sipa zZzZ
1482 2013-06-03 22:40:04 <BlueMatt> official docs on PE format: "Appears to be a signature WORD of some sort"
1483 2013-06-03 22:40:04 gjj_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1484 2013-06-03 22:40:05 <Luke-Jr> Goonie_: security.html shows current versions distinct from outdated ones
1485 2013-06-03 22:40:14 <BlueMatt> in other words m$ isnt even sure what the hell is in pe anymore...
1486 2013-06-03 22:40:21 <Goonie_> Luke-Jr: and sub-versions could also be represented as "sub-pies"
1487 2013-06-03 22:40:35 <Luke-Jr> Goonie_: perhaps..
1488 2013-06-03 22:40:46 enikanorov has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1489 2013-06-03 22:40:46 <Luke-Jr> Goonie_: personally, I'd like to sometime redo the chart with time
1490 2013-06-03 22:40:53 <Luke-Jr> so we can see how it changes day by day
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1495 2013-06-03 22:41:46 <Goonie_> why does 0.8.1 count as updated? its outdated now
1496 2013-06-03 22:42:23 enikanorov has joined
1497 2013-06-03 22:42:24 <sipa> there's no known problems with 0.8.1
1498 2013-06-03 22:42:39 <Goonie_> well there is. it implements the old fee rules
1499 2013-06-03 22:42:50 <sipa> not a problem to the network
1500 2013-06-03 22:42:59 <Luke-Jr> Goonie_: I probably need to update the chart
1501 2013-06-03 22:43:04 <Luke-Jr> I think last time was 0.8.2rc :P
1502 2013-06-03 22:43:10 <Luke-Jr> and 0.8.1 is current until 0.8.2 final
1503 2013-06-03 22:43:17 <Goonie_> but a problem to the user who creates a spend that does not confirm
1504 2013-06-03 22:43:26 <sipa> ?
1505 2013-06-03 22:43:36 <Luke-Jr> was kinda waiting for the May15 hardfork to take effect, sigh
1506 2013-06-03 22:43:50 <sipa> i don't see which direction you mean
1507 2013-06-03 22:44:13 <sipa> 0.8.1 and earlier already used 0.0001 as a fee/kb for relaying
1508 2013-06-03 22:44:42 <sipa> right, old clients could create dust
1509 2013-06-03 22:44:52 <Goonie_> well it is my understanding that 0.8.1 can create dust that will not propagate
1510 2013-06-03 22:44:55 <Luke-Jr> and their dust will probably still get mined for some time
1511 2013-06-03 22:45:49 <Goonie_> and also there are other clients besides bitcoin-qt. for bitcoin-wallet I need to decide on the right time to upgrade the fee rules
1512 2013-06-03 22:46:02 <Goonie_> so a chart for this would be nice
1513 2013-06-03 22:46:08 <sipa> Goonie_: how so?
1514 2013-06-03 22:46:20 <sipa> except for not creating dust, anything should be fine
1515 2013-06-03 22:46:35 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1516 2013-06-03 22:46:59 <sipa> what fee to advise is harder, i suppose
1517 2013-06-03 22:47:36 <Goonie_> sipa: well that's already done by BlueMatt
1518 2013-06-03 22:47:53 <Goonie_> (needs to be tested though)
1519 2013-06-03 22:47:55 <sipa> how?
1520 2013-06-03 22:48:18 <Goonie_> sipa: he has a patch for bitcoinj that implements the new rules
1521 2013-06-03 22:48:36 <sipa> i don't mean the minimum fee stuff
1522 2013-06-03 22:48:48 <sipa> i don't think the minimum that will be relayed is a good suggestion
1523 2013-06-03 22:49:09 <Goonie_> why not?
1524 2013-06-03 22:49:12 <sipa> as many clients pay much higher fees by default, against which to compete
1525 2013-06-03 22:50:01 zbroyar has joined
1526 2013-06-03 22:50:03 <Goonie_> how much fee does bitcoin-qt 0.8.2 pay by default?
1527 2013-06-03 22:50:18 SwapperMall has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1528 2013-06-03 22:50:19 <Goonie_> (for a standard ~500 bytes tx)
1529 2013-06-03 22:50:20 <sipa> 0.0001 BTC/kB i think
1530 2013-06-03 22:50:32 * nsh nods
1531 2013-06-03 22:50:58 <phantomcircuit> sipa, purple
1532 2013-06-03 22:51:07 <sipa> ...?
1533 2013-06-03 22:51:11 tyn has joined
1534 2013-06-03 22:51:14 <phantomcircuit> er
1535 2013-06-03 22:51:23 <Goonie_> sipa: but that *is* the minimum that will be relayed
1536 2013-06-03 22:51:26 <phantomcircuit> sipa, any suggestions for my patch to improve wallet load times
1537 2013-06-03 22:51:48 <sipa> Goonie_: 0.0001 BTC per started kB, i think
1538 2013-06-03 22:52:13 <sipa> Goonie_: if it doesn't fit the free relay rules
1539 2013-06-03 22:52:20 <Goonie_> sipa: that's exactly what BlueMatt implemented
1540 2013-06-03 22:52:38 <Goonie_> sipa: I guess he just mirrored the bitcoin-qt rules
1541 2013-06-03 22:52:42 <sipa> right ok
1542 2013-06-03 22:52:58 <BlueMatt> to be clear: that is a possible use of the new api, and it is what I recommended bitcoin-wallet use
1543 2013-06-03 22:52:58 <sipa> i was talking about determining what a good fee was, based on network activity
1544 2013-06-03 22:53:09 <BlueMatt> you can specify lower, and it also implements the new min-relay rules separately
1545 2013-06-03 22:53:46 <sipa> phantomcircuit: you can pullreq it, otherwise i'll probably do so if i find some time
1546 2013-06-03 22:53:48 * BlueMatt -> bed
1547 2013-06-03 22:54:09 <sipa> afk
1548 2013-06-03 22:54:15 bitnumus has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1549 2013-06-03 22:54:16 <Goonie_> nite
1550 2013-06-03 22:55:35 robocoin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1551 2013-06-03 22:56:22 * nsh imagines a world where BlueMatt <- bed
1552 2013-06-03 22:56:34 <nsh> (maybe one of those beds that hides in a wall)
1553 2013-06-03 22:56:34 mollison has joined
1554 2013-06-03 22:57:21 bitnumus has joined
1555 2013-06-03 22:57:59 oleganza has joined
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1557 2013-06-03 22:59:15 <oleganza> i'm comparing libbitcoin and bitcoin-qt and see that in Bitcoin-QT uint256 is not reversed when signing/verifying EC signature, but in libbitcoin hash_digest (std::array<uint8_t, 32> ) is reversed
1558 2013-06-03 22:59:29 <oleganza> where can i read more about byte order gimmicks in any of those codebases?
1559 2013-06-03 22:59:32 oleganza has quit (Client Quit)
1560 2013-06-03 22:59:36 Squidicuz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1561 2013-06-03 22:59:56 <phantomcircuit> lol wat
1562 2013-06-03 22:59:59 <phantomcircuit> 3 seconds
1563 2013-06-03 23:00:06 <phantomcircuit> that has to be a record for drive by question
1564 2013-06-03 23:00:46 <nsh> hehe
1565 2013-06-03 23:00:47 ProfMac has joined
1566 2013-06-03 23:00:58 phma_ is now known as phma
1567 2013-06-03 23:01:27 <nsh> maybe it was the spooks. one of the downsides to only having a read access to all the world's communications
1568 2013-06-03 23:02:29 resinate has joined
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1574 2013-06-03 23:08:53 brwyatt_ is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt_
1575 2013-06-03 23:12:30 funky2 has joined
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1577 2013-06-03 23:15:26 <MC1984> libbitcoin is maintained?
1578 2013-06-03 23:16:10 zbroyar has left ()
1579 2013-06-03 23:19:14 <michagogo> [01:19:56] <Luke-Jr> was kinda waiting for the May15 hardfork to take effect, sigh
1580 2013-06-03 23:19:14 <michagogo> Wait, it hasn't yet?
1581 2013-06-03 23:20:22 * Luke-Jr is finally unpacking from the conference <.<
1582 2013-06-03 23:20:25 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: nope :/
1583 2013-06-03 23:20:31 <michagogo> o_O
1584 2013-06-03 23:20:34 <Luke-Jr> MC1984: genjix is in #bitcoin-wiki :P
1585 2013-06-03 23:22:32 <funky2> :)
1586 2013-06-03 23:23:15 stretchwarren has joined
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1588 2013-06-03 23:24:37 rdponticelli has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1589 2013-06-03 23:25:41 <MC1984> cool seems like hes getting more involved again
1590 2013-06-03 23:25:51 cypher has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1591 2013-06-03 23:25:58 johnsoft1 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1592 2013-06-03 23:26:08 stretchwarren has joined
1593 2013-06-03 23:26:09 <MC1984> he always seemed so passionate that i doubted he could stay away forever
1594 2013-06-03 23:26:28 <MC1984> some might say to the point of mania lol
1595 2013-06-03 23:26:33 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1596 2013-06-03 23:26:42 <MC1984> hes a cool guy imo, i might pop in an say hi tomorrow
1597 2013-06-03 23:27:19 jedunnigan has joined
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1605 2013-06-03 23:34:55 <Luke-Jr> hmm, we should add a vanitygen module to Bitcoin-Qt :P
1606 2013-06-03 23:35:05 <Luke-Jr> automatically generate vanity addresses for your keypool in the background
1607 2013-06-03 23:35:37 CodeShark has joined
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1610 2013-06-03 23:36:35 djzdk_1 has joined
1611 2013-06-03 23:36:48 <michagogo> Luke-Jr: Hmm?
1612 2013-06-03 23:36:59 <djzdk_1> how do i make guiminer to show what my gpu is using :) ?
1613 2013-06-03 23:37:08 <Luke-Jr> michagogo: imagine if every address you made began with 3micha* :p
1614 2013-06-03 23:37:35 <michagogo> lol
1615 2013-06-03 23:38:07 chorao has quit ()
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1620 2013-06-03 23:40:16 <phantomcircuit> boy i should not have drank that double latter
1621 2013-06-03 23:41:03 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1622 2013-06-03 23:41:17 Squidicuz has joined
1623 2013-06-03 23:41:46 * nsh is imbibing PURE TIME
1624 2013-06-03 23:41:50 <nsh> i mean, phantomcircuit is
1625 2013-06-03 23:42:03 <funky2> :)
1626 2013-06-03 23:42:04 <nsh> i'm just easily suggestible
1627 2013-06-03 23:42:51 cypher has joined
1628 2013-06-03 23:42:51 <nsh> also that doesn't even make sense in retrospect. so let's just all pretend circumstances were such that i was able to make a somewhat comical observation
1629 2013-06-03 23:43:21 <devrandom> sipa: Luke-Jr: if you need to sign both installer and inner binary - why not output both? gitian signs all outputs, and some of them can just be optional at download time
1630 2013-06-03 23:43:22 djzdk_1 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1631 2013-06-03 23:43:37 funky3 has joined
1632 2013-06-03 23:44:28 <devrandom> (I might be missing some context)
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1644 2013-06-03 23:55:54 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: my problem was that gpg -u luke-jr uses the wrong key - maybe a way to set user dir without passing -u to gpg?
1645 2013-06-03 23:56:31 <funky3> Luke-Jr do you use qq messenger?
1646 2013-06-03 23:56:38 <Luke-Jr> devrandom: for OS signing, the inner binary is compressed inside the installer; even if we sign the output EXE, it won't update the installer copy
1647 2013-06-03 23:56:41 <Luke-Jr> funky3: no?
1648 2013-06-03 23:57:02 <Luke-Jr> funky3: I only use my own service, which is compatible with anything standards-compliant
1649 2013-06-03 23:57:03 culturelabs has joined
1650 2013-06-03 23:57:35 <funky3> its pretty neat however its have google like aspiration to spy alot. now they are wont even allow to sign up without chinese mobile phone, etc, filter chat for keywords live time
1651 2013-06-03 23:57:46 <funky3> pretty funny
1652 2013-06-03 23:57:48 rdponticelli has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
1653 2013-06-03 23:57:53 <nsh> (alots are better than you at everything)
1654 2013-06-03 23:58:15 <funky3> nsh I can use vpn just lazy
1655 2013-06-03 23:58:24 <funky3> I feel like deleting everything google, etc
1656 2013-06-03 23:58:42 wamatt has joined
1657 2013-06-03 23:58:53 <funky3> maybe bitcoin chat messenger? hehe
1658 2013-06-03 23:58:55 Tantadruj has quit (Quit: DoubleRecall Turns Paywalls Into Advertising Dollars - NYTimes.com http://nyti.ms/odHOgy)
1659 2013-06-03 23:59:01 <nsh> i deleted google once. boy was that a long restore from backups...
1660 2013-06-03 23:59:07 <Luke-Jr> funky3: plenty of free IM services
1661 2013-06-03 23:59:19 <funky3> peer2peer messenger outside of any gov contril
1662 2013-06-03 23:59:27 <Luke-Jr> http://xmpp.net/ has a list of standard-compatible free IM services
1663 2013-06-03 23:59:33 <funky3> Luke-Jr: well I like chinese and they use qq hence the dilemma :)
1664 2013-06-03 23:59:34 <nsh> funky3, see xmpp + OTR
1665 2013-06-03 23:59:59 <nsh> (although xmpp still leaks information about whom you speak to and when, etc. there's room for improvements)