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50 2013-06-05 00:42:11 [\\\] is now known as pirateat40
51 2013-06-05 00:43:17 pirateat40 is now known as `0
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57 2013-06-05 00:56:37 discontent has joined
58 2013-06-05 00:56:47 <discontent> is this the official channel for bitcoin?
59 2013-06-05 00:57:13 owowo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
60 2013-06-05 00:58:55 <pigeons> discontent: see topic
61 2013-06-05 00:59:13 owowo has joined
62 2013-06-05 01:01:41 <warren> /qyery lianj
63 2013-06-05 01:01:44 <warren> shoot
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69 2013-06-05 01:13:55 <discontent> is there some place where the meaning of the variables is stated?
70 2013-06-05 01:14:36 emryss has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
71 2013-06-05 01:15:05 <discontent> or does it have to be inferred?
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74 2013-06-05 01:20:00 <maaku> what variables?
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77 2013-06-05 01:22:48 <ecoloco> If my 0.1098 is worth 13.32$ because 1 bitcoin is on 121.3$ right now. What would my 0.1098 Bitcoin to be worth if 1 bitcoin was worth 35$?
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92 2013-06-05 01:43:07 <ecoloco> I made a payment today at 0.1098 Bitcoin without paying a fee. It took a while before the first confirmed went through. Can I continue to pay small sums of money without paying a fee? Or does will this affect my account / my bitcoins in any way?
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101 2013-06-05 01:50:46 <ecoloco> Why do some people says that I should pay 0.0005 in fee. While Bitcoin-QT program says I should pay 0.01 in fee (recommended)?
102 2013-06-05 01:52:53 Diablo-D3 has joined
103 2013-06-05 01:53:23 <pigeons> ecoloco: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
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107 2013-06-05 01:58:03 <ecoloco> pigeons: ok thanks
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121 2013-06-05 02:17:08 <sipa_> tumak: secp256k1_fe_* is field element operations (integers modulo p), secp256k1_ge_* is group element operations (points on the curve), secp256k1_gej_* is group elements in jacobian notation, secp256k1_num_* is scalars
122 2013-06-05 02:18:06 <sipa_> tumak: it's functionally complete as far as i know (that is: all low-level operations necessary for the exposed high-level EC/ECDSA functions are there)
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130 2013-06-05 02:31:44 <TheUni> sipa_: ping
131 2013-06-05 02:32:19 <sipa_> TheUni: looking at your pull now
132 2013-06-05 02:32:28 <TheUni> great, thanks
133 2013-06-05 02:33:14 <warren> URL?
134 2013-06-05 02:33:35 <sipa_> #2700
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139 2013-06-05 02:41:15 <TheUni> sipa_: thanks
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141 2013-06-05 02:43:05 `0 is now known as [\\\]
142 2013-06-05 02:45:58 <BCB> ;;rated KoSoVaR
143 2013-06-05 02:45:58 <gribble> You rated user KoSoVaR on Sat Mar 30 16:51:07 2013, giving him a rating of 1, and supplied these additional notes: small Chase quickpay to bitcoin trade. Smooth..
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147 2013-06-05 02:47:55 <BCB> ;;rate KosoVar 3 Multiple Trades. Smooth.
148 2013-06-05 02:47:56 <gribble> Rating entry successful. Your rating for user KosoVar has changed from 1 to 3.
149 2013-06-05 02:48:01 <sipa_> BCB: not here
150 2013-06-05 02:48:08 <BCB> what's up with gribble
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152 2013-06-05 02:49:09 <BCB> opps sorry
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199 2013-06-05 03:47:47 <phantomcircuit> lol most useless heap profile ever
200 2013-06-05 03:47:56 <phantomcircuit> start bitcoind with testnet and a default wallet
201 2013-06-05 03:48:02 <phantomcircuit> allocates almost nothing on the heap
202 2013-06-05 03:48:21 <sipa_> huh?
203 2013-06-05 03:48:31 <maaku> verifying blocks on startup takes ~1 min for me on a new macbook pro (no SSD). is this normal and is 288 blocks still an acceptable default?
204 2013-06-05 03:48:51 <phantomcircuit> sipa_, yeah it's weird
205 2013-06-05 03:49:06 <phantomcircuit> tcmalloc with HEAPPROFILE shows only 0.2MB allocated on the heap
206 2013-06-05 03:49:11 <sipa_> lol
207 2013-06-05 03:49:16 <sipa_> that's ridiculous
208 2013-06-05 03:49:26 <phantomcircuit> not sure if super efficient
209 2013-06-05 03:49:27 brson has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
210 2013-06-05 03:49:29 <phantomcircuit> or totally wrong
211 2013-06-05 03:49:45 <sipa_> how many blocks is testnet?
212 2013-06-05 03:49:53 <phantomcircuit> 83k
213 2013-06-05 03:49:53 <sipa_> oh, is it synced?
214 2013-06-05 03:49:57 <phantomcircuit> yeah it is
215 2013-06-05 03:50:06 <sipa_> ;;calc 83000*130
216 2013-06-05 03:50:07 <gribble> 10790000
217 2013-06-05 03:50:08 <phantomcircuit> and this is after it verifies everything and loads
218 2013-06-05 03:50:18 <sipa_> at least the block headers should be 10 MB
219 2013-06-05 03:50:22 <phantomcircuit> ok so horribly inaccurate it is
220 2013-06-05 03:50:27 <phantomcircuit> wonder why that is
221 2013-06-05 03:50:40 <sipa_> the dbcache is likely more
222 2013-06-05 03:50:53 <phantomcircuit> lol
223 2013-06-05 03:50:59 <phantomcircuit> totally unrelated
224 2013-06-05 03:51:08 <phantomcircuit> girl wants to have a drink near were i live
225 2013-06-05 03:51:12 <phantomcircuit> "can you drive me home?"
226 2013-06-05 03:51:13 <phantomcircuit> wat
227 2013-06-05 03:51:14 <phantomcircuit> no
228 2013-06-05 03:51:25 <phantomcircuit> drinks
229 2013-06-05 03:51:26 <phantomcircuit> drive
230 2013-06-05 03:51:30 <phantomcircuit> *head asplodes*
231 2013-06-05 03:51:49 <sipa_> maaku: there are a few steps involved, and i'm not sure which is the slowest (for you)
232 2013-06-05 03:51:55 <warren> sipa_: should I abort my pre-autotools patches and just wait?
233 2013-06-05 03:52:16 <maaku> ok, i'll profile it when i get the chance
234 2013-06-05 03:52:47 <phantomcircuit> sipa_, i should also note that the google-perftools cpuprofile appears to completely lock up when loading a large wallet
235 2013-06-05 03:52:52 <maaku> btw sipa_ do you ever sleep ;)
236 2013-06-05 03:53:02 <sipa_> maaku: i'm weirdly jetlagged
237 2013-06-05 03:53:15 <sipa_> i slept from 10pm to 4am
238 2013-06-05 03:54:16 <maaku> yeah that travel takes time to adjust
239 2013-06-05 03:54:40 <maaku> you're still on USA pacific time if IRC is any judge ;)
240 2013-06-05 03:55:06 <sipa_> that would mean i've slept from 1pm to 7pm...
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244 2013-06-05 03:56:58 <maaku> i'll track down the slow verification. if it annoys me, it probably annoys newbies too
245 2013-06-05 03:57:09 <sipa_> yeah, i've noticed it here too
246 2013-06-05 03:57:17 <maaku> of course multi-day IBD is probably a more pressing problem :P
247 2013-06-05 03:57:35 <sipa_> but i rarely use Qt, so it bothers me less
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249 2013-06-05 03:58:50 <grau> Use IL (mod n) as master secret key, and IR as master chain code.
250 2013-06-05 03:58:50 <grau> In case IL is 0 or >=n, the master key is invalid.
251 2013-06-05 03:58:56 <grau> sipa_: a minor node to BIP32 doc: The Master key generation is ambigous:
252 2013-06-05 03:59:14 <grau> sipa_: Hi see above
253 2013-06-05 03:59:29 <sipa_> aha, the mod n should go away
254 2013-06-05 03:59:35 <sipa_> thanks for pointing that out
255 2013-06-05 03:59:57 <sipa_> if that's what you meant?
256 2013-06-05 04:00:06 <grau> sipa_: yes
257 2013-06-05 04:00:38 <grau> sipa_: For my own benefit: "Bitcoin seed" would be replaced by pasphrase in practice and seed is some entropy?
258 2013-06-05 04:01:31 <sipa_> i didn't intend the string to be changeable
259 2013-06-05 04:01:52 <sipa_> if you want a password-protected system, the seed should be encrypted with it
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261 2013-06-05 04:02:15 <grau> I mean if master key is a brain wallet
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266 2013-06-05 04:03:19 <grau> the seed would provide sufficient randomness and the key would be memorized
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268 2013-06-05 04:03:45 <sipa_> if the seed is generated randomly, there's no need to have extra entropy from the key
269 2013-06-05 04:04:15 <sipa_> and using a passphrase directly as the hmac key sounds like a very weak key derivation mechanism
270 2013-06-05 04:04:52 <sipa_> you're much better off using scrypt or something like that to turn the passphrase into a key in a hard/slow way, and then use that key to encrypt the seed
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281 2013-06-05 04:05:31 <sipa_> but i'm not sure what you want to do: you say brainwallet, but there's still a random seed involved?
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283 2013-06-05 04:05:41 <sipa_> so there's two things to remember?
284 2013-06-05 04:05:59 <grau> I mean the following use: the seed would be derived from some unique device property of sufficient quantity and key would be the passphrase to reconstruct the wallet.
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287 2013-06-05 04:06:17 <grau> I think of the brain wallet in a mobile
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289 2013-06-05 04:06:49 <sipa_> you mean let people choose a passphrase themself, and have the wallet be directly derived from that?
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291 2013-06-05 04:06:52 <sipa_> that sounds terrible
292 2013-06-05 04:07:22 <grau> not just from passphrase, but some unique property linked to the device that has sufficient randomness
293 2013-06-05 04:07:29 <sipa_> such as?
294 2013-06-05 04:08:06 <grau> it could be PRNG generated even and the user would be asked to store it elsewhere to be able to reconstruct on an other mobile.
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298 2013-06-05 04:08:58 <grau> the point is to have a simple passphrase to enter and some p random seed to make it string enough for thse have no access to the device
299 2013-06-05 04:08:59 <sipa_> i'm not following at all anymore
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301 2013-06-05 04:09:17 <sipa_> where is this p stored?
302 2013-06-05 04:09:27 <grau> on the device
303 2013-06-05 04:09:34 <sipa_> ok, so it's not a brainwallet
304 2013-06-05 04:09:46 <sipa_> just a password-protected seed
305 2013-06-05 04:09:51 <grau> in between since the passphrase is brain
306 2013-06-05 04:10:05 <grau> ok, if thats the correct term
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308 2013-06-05 04:10:09 <sipa_> but the passphrase is not enough to reconstruct the wallet
309 2013-06-05 04:10:19 <sipa_> it's only used to protect the stored seed
310 2013-06-05 04:10:20 <grau> no, you need the seed to
311 2013-06-05 04:10:30 <sipa_> so, what i would suggest is this:
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313 2013-06-05 04:11:08 <sipa_> you generate a random byte string (16-64 bytes), as random as you can
314 2013-06-05 04:11:15 <sipa_> you ask for a passphrase
315 2013-06-05 04:11:35 <sipa_> you use scrypt or another KDF to turn the passphrase into an encryption key
316 2013-06-05 04:11:49 <sipa_> then encrypt the random byte string using that encryption key, and store it
317 2013-06-05 04:12:02 <sipa_> and use the random byte string as BIP32 seed
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321 2013-06-05 04:13:17 <sipa_> you could just encrypt the root node, or even known subnodes as well of course, if you want to save recomputation time
322 2013-06-05 04:13:24 <grau> why would I store the encrypted byte string? I can ask for the passphrase to recreate it on the fly
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326 2013-06-05 04:13:42 <sipa_> well it replaces the p value that you wanted to store before
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330 2013-06-05 04:14:37 <grau> I start with a random byte string already, right?
331 2013-06-05 04:15:07 <sipa> the scheme i gave above is all you need
332 2013-06-05 04:15:27 <sipa> there's of course other possibilities, but please don't directly use a passphrase to derive keys
333 2013-06-05 04:15:37 coderrr has quit (Quit: Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.0.5)
334 2013-06-05 04:15:39 <sipa> humans are ridiculously bad at estimating their own randomness
335 2013-06-05 04:15:40 <tumak> sipa: neat, i'm trying to extract it (_fe_/_ge_) to work without using gmp/ssl bignum
336 2013-06-05 04:15:53 <tumak> and i'm kind of confused since _num_ is haunting all over the place
337 2013-06-05 04:16:01 <sipa> tumak: fe and ge don't use num
338 2013-06-05 04:16:05 <tumak> yup
339 2013-06-05 04:16:17 <tumak> however the upper level mixes _fe_/_ge_ with bignum :(
340 2013-06-05 04:16:21 <sipa> of course
341 2013-06-05 04:16:34 <sipa> private keys are scalares, not field or group elements
342 2013-06-05 04:17:07 <sipa> grau: you say "I start with a random byte string" -> you mean from a PRNG?
343 2013-06-05 04:17:20 <grau> sipa: yes
344 2013-06-05 04:17:26 <sipa> so that's fine
345 2013-06-05 04:18:06 ThomasV has joined
346 2013-06-05 04:18:07 <grau> What I do not get is why "Bitcoin seed" is fixed and is not derived from passphrase
347 2013-06-05 04:18:20 <sipa> there's no need
348 2013-06-05 04:18:26 <sipa> it could have been an empty string as well
349 2013-06-05 04:18:46 <sipa> it's just that HMAC has a key and a message as input, but we don't need a key
350 2013-06-05 04:18:57 <sipa> we're just reusing it as a hash function
351 2013-06-05 04:19:23 <grau> I want to split the information to stored and memorized. There it is handy to store the seed and memorize the key.
352 2013-06-05 04:19:35 <tumak> sipa: meaning that code is only useful to verify signatures, but not for signing as that involves scalar add/sub (easy), and modmul/inverse (where i guess i'd need to implement modmul with hardcoded secp256k1 order)
353 2013-06-05 04:19:56 FabianB_ has joined
354 2013-06-05 04:20:02 <sipa> grau: and that's exactly what you're doing, when you encrypt the seed with a passphrase
355 2013-06-05 04:20:14 <sipa> grau: the inputs to reconstruction become the stored encrypted key, and the passphrase
356 2013-06-05 04:20:15 <grau> now I get you.
357 2013-06-05 04:20:28 <sipa> and either one is useless
358 2013-06-05 04:20:46 <sipa> except the passphrase may be guessable, the encrypted key shouldn't ever be
359 2013-06-05 04:21:25 FabianB has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
360 2013-06-05 04:21:32 <sipa> tumak: so if you want the entire library to be dependency-free, you'll need a new native num implementation from scratch
361 2013-06-05 04:22:03 <sipa> but especially for things like modular inverses, it's very hard to beat libraries like GMP
362 2013-06-05 04:22:34 <sipa> performance-wise
363 2013-06-05 04:25:04 <grau> sipa: what algorithm do you suggest if I use derive properties instead of PRNG to derive the seed?
364 2013-06-05 04:25:21 <sipa> grau: PRNG and nothing else
365 2013-06-05 04:25:31 <sipa> the seed should be random
366 2013-06-05 04:25:40 <grau> Assuming is have some device properties.
367 2013-06-05 04:25:59 <sipa> you could add those device properties implicitly to the passphrase
368 2013-06-05 04:26:48 <sipa> so the real passphrase fed to scrypt/kdf would be the entered passphrase concatenated with whatever properties you can use (those effectively become a salt)
369 2013-06-05 04:28:45 <sipa> maaku: regarding startup time, a) is a second startup right after the first faster (to exclude disk cache effects), b) does lowering -checklevel help, or does -checkblocks matter more. c) is it CPU bound?
370 2013-06-05 04:29:53 charybdi1 is now known as charybdis
371 2013-06-05 04:30:07 [ is now known as ||]!~imsaguy@unaffiliated/imsaguy|pirateat40
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373 2013-06-05 04:30:54 <sipa> grau: so perhaps to address what you wanted to do: i know it's tempting to see the HMAC key in the master generation as a way to tweak the keys, and it would be good for that if what you add is actually a real fully random key
374 2013-06-05 04:32:21 <sipa> grau: but since that's not the case (if it was, you'd just use it as seed instead), it's not a good solution, and you should see the (seed -> HMACSHA512(key="Bitcoin seed", msg=seed) operation as a black box, and do anything to tweak it on the seed before passing it to the master generation
375 2013-06-05 04:37:14 <grau> sipa: OK, here is my plan (following your advice): 1. generate PRNG seed R. 2. get passphrase P. 3 create key K = KDF(P). 4. encrypt and store seed as S = E(K,R). 5. Use Master key as M = HMACSHA512("Bitcoin seed", R). 6. Recreate: M = HMACSHA512("Bitcoin seed",D(KDF(P),S))
376 2013-06-05 04:37:34 <sipa> grau: bingo
377 2013-06-05 04:37:40 <grau> thanks a lot
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379 2013-06-05 04:38:29 <sipa> you could use KDF(P + salt) too, where salt is derived from hardware properties
380 2013-06-05 04:38:50 <grau> yep.
381 2013-06-05 04:39:54 <grau> and KDF will be scrypt to frustrate brute force if device is stolen
382 2013-06-05 04:41:06 <grau> do you have a feel of scrypt parameters sufficient to frustrate but suitable for key derivation in a mobile?
383 2013-06-05 04:41:50 <sipa> that's always a hard thing, since your attackers will likely have very different hardware
384 2013-06-05 04:42:03 <sipa> but mobiles have relatively large amounts of RAM these days, i think
385 2013-06-05 04:42:36 <grau> I know, but could not yet find a pointer of how to interpret and tune parameters. Do you have some source?
386 2013-06-05 04:42:53 <sipa> i'd have to look it up myself
387 2013-06-05 04:43:05 <grau> ok, never mind I keep googling
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391 2013-06-05 04:45:22 <maaku> sipa: it appears to be disk, not CPU bound, and relaunching is faster, but not by much. say, 50s instead of 60. i haven't made precise timings yet.
392 2013-06-05 04:45:56 <maaku> 16G of ram, with 12G free, so that's not the issue
393 2013-06-05 04:46:30 <sipa> maaku: you have txindex enabled?
394 2013-06-05 04:46:46 <sipa> that shouldn't matter much actually
395 2013-06-05 04:47:15 <maaku> running default 0.8.2 launch options (just rpc information set)
396 2013-06-05 04:47:42 <maaku> i'll try messing with -checklevel or -checkblocks tomorrow if i can
397 2013-06-05 04:48:57 <maaku> btw if this is just my machine than I'm not concerned; i just wouldn't want this to be the default user experience
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399 2013-06-05 04:51:06 emryss has joined
400 2013-06-05 04:51:34 <sipa> maaku: unlikely that it's just you
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414 2013-06-05 05:17:24 arruah1 has joined
415 2013-06-05 05:17:34 <arruah1> hi ppl
416 2013-06-05 05:18:16 <arruah1> any professionals on ruby here?
417 2013-06-05 05:18:34 <sipa> i don't do drugs
418 2013-06-05 05:19:04 <arruah1> sipa: i don't understand
419 2013-06-05 05:19:13 <sipa> arruah1: silly joke, sorry :)
420 2013-06-05 05:19:33 <arruah1> sipa: i have to try open exchange in KAzakhstan
421 2013-06-05 05:19:53 dan_ has joined
422 2013-06-05 05:19:54 <sipa> i wish you good luck, but ruby will be the least of your problems
423 2013-06-05 05:20:53 <arruah1> sipa: i find this https://github.com/davout/bitcoin-central
424 2013-06-05 05:21:47 <sipa> arruah1: i mean: i expect security and legal issues to be much larger concerns than implementation
425 2013-06-05 05:21:54 Diablo-D3 has joined
426 2013-06-05 05:22:03 <tumak> in .kz? somehow i doubt it :)
427 2013-06-05 05:22:26 <arruah1> .kz
428 2013-06-05 05:23:41 <gmaxwell> A Glorious Market of Bitcoin!
429 2013-06-05 05:24:38 <gmaxwell> arruah1: You can probably hire people to help you with the technical stuff on bitcointalk, but as sipa said— the technical problems are the easiest.
430 2013-06-05 05:25:58 <owowo> so what are the hardest? ;o)
431 2013-06-05 05:26:41 <gmaxwell> Coming up with a name.
432 2013-06-05 05:26:44 * gmaxwell ducks
433 2013-06-05 05:27:43 <sipa> "The Gmaxwell Ducks: A new Bitcoin exchange!"
434 2013-06-05 05:27:45 <owowo> Nasarbarbit.kz :P
435 2013-06-05 05:28:19 <arruah1> owowo: :)
436 2013-06-05 05:28:43 <arruah1> owowo: you know our Prezident it is good
437 2013-06-05 05:29:03 <gmaxwell> Ducks for bucks, a fowl business plan if I've ever heard of it.
438 2013-06-05 05:29:06 <grau> sipa: Is there are reason to encrypt the PRNG seed in the first place. Could I not just assume that PRNG result is an encrypted seed?
439 2013-06-05 05:29:45 <sipa> grau: and only decrypt the randomly-generated date to get the seed?
440 2013-06-05 05:29:52 <grau> yes
441 2013-06-05 05:30:12 <arruah1> owowo: President*
442 2013-06-05 05:30:17 <gmaxwell> grau: I may be missing context here, but then you could not change passwords. Key management is important.
443 2013-06-05 05:30:22 <sipa> grau: that sounds safe to me, but the encryption done at generation time is not likely to be a bottleneck, is it?
444 2013-06-05 05:30:43 <grau> no, it is just superflus code :)
445 2013-06-05 05:30:44 <sipa> gmaxwell: actually, you can :)
446 2013-06-05 05:31:01 <grau> like the o in superflous
447 2013-06-05 05:31:18 <sipa> superfluous?
448 2013-06-05 05:31:21 <gmaxwell> sipa: hah. by reencrypting.. I suppose. go go permutation.. BUT.
449 2013-06-05 05:31:34 <gmaxwell> sipa: at that point no code would have been saved at all. :)
450 2013-06-05 05:34:50 <sipa> true
451 2013-06-05 05:35:26 <arruah1> sipa: why ruby is bad choice?
452 2013-06-05 05:35:51 <sipa> arruah1: eh, i never intended to say that
453 2013-06-05 05:36:03 <sipa> (i don't know ruby at all, so i cannot judge)
454 2013-06-05 05:36:18 <arruah1> sipa: ok
455 2013-06-05 05:36:23 <sipa> i just said that you should worry about more than just programming the site, when creating an exchange
456 2013-06-05 05:36:38 <arruah1> sipa: i realize that
457 2013-06-05 05:36:51 <arruah1> sorry for my English
458 2013-06-05 05:37:22 <arruah1> sipa: but first of all i need programmer
459 2013-06-05 05:38:40 <maaku> arruah1: the trading engine itself probably shouldn't be in ruby for performance reasons
460 2013-06-05 05:39:19 <maaku> but the trading engine shouldn't be the same application as the website either
461 2013-06-05 05:39:25 <arruah1> 1.9 is good by speed now as i know
462 2013-06-05 05:39:42 <maaku> not nearly good enough
463 2013-06-05 05:39:51 <maaku> but best to let your programmer make those decisions
464 2013-06-05 05:39:52 <Diablo-D3> arruah1: ruby is a bad choice because its a shit backwards language for hipsters
465 2013-06-05 05:39:55 <arruah1> maaku: hm
466 2013-06-05 05:40:20 <Diablo-D3> anyone who thinks ruby is a good choice for something is simply wrong and should be beaten with a crowbar
467 2013-06-05 05:40:21 <arruah1> maaku: what about bitcoin-central.net, bitcoin-24.com
468 2013-06-05 05:40:44 <arruah1> maaku: bitcoin-24.com was good for me
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482 2013-06-05 06:00:40 <warren> Do all commits into bitcoin require a pull request, or do a select few push directly? Just understanding policy.
483 2013-06-05 06:01:05 <warren> not seeing pull requests for some things
484 2013-06-05 06:01:24 <sipa> very simple things are sometimes pushed directly
485 2013-06-05 06:02:32 <maaku> warren: if you're trusted with a commit bit, it also means you are trusted to know when something is controversial (pull-request) or not
486 2013-06-05 06:02:35 <Luke-Jr> very rarely
487 2013-06-05 06:02:52 <Luke-Jr> even if it's not controversial, peer review is important for the quality needed in a Bitcoin node
488 2013-06-05 06:03:06 <maaku> Luke-Jr: agreed
489 2013-06-05 06:03:12 <sipa> i generally always use pullreqs, even if it's for something i merge immediately myself
490 2013-06-05 06:03:51 Maxvalor has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
491 2013-06-05 06:05:12 * Luke-Jr would use pull requests for BFGMiner or Eloipool if there were actual other contributors to review them :/
492 2013-06-05 06:05:51 <warren> Pools just copy random code from github. They don't understand it.
493 2013-06-05 06:06:00 <warren> Hilarity ensues.
494 2013-06-05 06:06:16 <Luke-Jr> dunno, at least 3 others have expressed that they would contribute if I rewrite it in C/C++, so I might do that
495 2013-06-05 06:07:09 <Luke-Jr> (Eloipool, that is)
496 2013-06-05 06:07:27 <maaku> really? please don't
497 2013-06-05 06:07:39 <Luke-Jr> …
498 2013-06-05 06:07:42 <maaku> well do whatever you have to do, but that's a shame
499 2013-06-05 06:08:03 <Luke-Jr> well, ~nobody else is contributing to it in Python..
500 2013-06-05 06:08:40 <maaku> there is much better ecosystem for http services in Python
501 2013-06-05 06:08:43 <warren> Luke-Jr: I was referring to a major exploit among the litecoin pools this past week. People figured out how to make a CPU miner steal shares as if it were a large massive GPU farm. Massive fail. Most of the little pools across multiple coins were using that software.
502 2013-06-05 06:09:13 <maaku> well I'll make and push Freicoin/demurrage+budgets support one of these days
503 2013-06-05 06:09:23 DoctorBTC has left ("Leaving...")
504 2013-06-05 06:11:27 <Luke-Jr> maaku: libcurl is pretty good for a HTTP client, and libjansson is nice for JSON
505 2013-06-05 06:11:39 <Luke-Jr> maaku: I'd need to write a HTTP server myself, sure, but I had to do that for Python too
506 2013-06-05 06:12:04 da2ce7 has joined
507 2013-06-05 06:12:23 <CodeShar_> python has httplib2
508 2013-06-05 06:12:27 <CodeShar_> for client operations
509 2013-06-05 06:12:30 <CodeShar_> which isn't bad
510 2013-06-05 06:12:42 <Luke-Jr> CodeShar_: yeah, but libcurl is good too
511 2013-06-05 06:12:55 <maaku> python as gunicorn, Werkzeug et al
512 2013-06-05 06:13:24 <Luke-Jr> "It's a pre-fork worker model ported from Ruby's Unicorn project."
513 2013-06-05 06:14:00 <maaku> but it's more about other stuff - templating, caching, etc., (e.g, if you are looking to add features to the front end)
514 2013-06-05 06:14:07 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
515 2013-06-05 06:14:19 <Luke-Jr> eh, I don't want frontend stuff in the backend :p
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518 2013-06-05 06:19:50 <pjorrit> that sounds so dirty Luke-Jr O=)
519 2013-06-05 06:19:55 <Luke-Jr> ………….
520 2013-06-05 06:20:24 <Luke-Jr> only if you have a dirty mind
521 2013-06-05 06:20:52 * pjorrit couldnt be more innocent
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530 2013-06-05 06:32:55 <john_z> hooray! we received yesterday our USB Block Eruptors!! :)
531 2013-06-05 06:33:05 <john_z> srry, wrong channel
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535 2013-06-05 06:34:52 <grau> sipa: superfluous ... in fact, we ned a lang w les reddcy
536 2013-06-05 06:35:05 <sipa> ttly agr
537 2013-06-05 06:35:26 <sipa> wh d w vn nd vwls n wrds t ll?
538 2013-06-05 06:36:08 altamic_ has joined
539 2013-06-05 06:36:19 <maaku> http://www.plainlanguage.gov/examples/humor/marktwain.cfm
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543 2013-06-05 06:38:01 <Kireji> attacks are coming http://www.forbes.com/sites/harrybinswanger/2013/06/04/dont-be-silly-the-entitlement-state-wont-allow-bitcoin/
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547 2013-06-05 06:43:24 <pjorrit> http://www.wm-center.com/index.html that's already taken down
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627 2013-06-05 08:56:23 <sydna> is there any known occurrence of a miner assigning themselves a less than maximum block reward?
628 2013-06-05 08:57:03 <sipa> yes
629 2013-06-05 08:57:42 <sydna> time to go find it, that sounds like fun
630 2013-06-05 08:58:00 <sipa> i can't give you exact examples, but the total current amount of unspent outputs is 11246389.80331183
631 2013-06-05 08:58:24 <sipa> which would be an exact multiple of 25, if all subsidy/fees were always claimed
632 2013-06-05 08:58:48 <sydna> heh, 135BTC short
633 2013-06-05 08:59:07 <sipa> the genesis block has no spendable output
634 2013-06-05 08:59:10 pierre` has joined
635 2013-06-05 08:59:27 <sipa> i believe there have been 1 or 2 cases of duplicate coinbases (which "overwite" existing coins)
636 2013-06-05 08:59:28 <sydna> I subtracted that already
637 2013-06-05 08:59:30 <pjorrit> but it's an unspent output isnt it? :)
638 2013-06-05 08:59:54 <sydna> I wasn't aware of that behaviour
639 2013-06-05 09:00:01 <sipa> pjorrit: it's an output, and it's unspent, but it's not in any UTXO set from the point of view of the verification mechanism
640 2013-06-05 09:00:10 <pjorrit> no that makes sense :)
641 2013-06-05 09:00:13 <sipa> sydna: since BIP30 it's impossible
642 2013-06-05 09:00:36 bitanarchy has joined
643 2013-06-05 09:00:40 <jouke> duplicate coinbases? Transaction with the same hash?
644 2013-06-05 09:00:49 <sipa> yes
645 2013-06-05 09:00:55 <sydna> oh, of course
646 2013-06-05 09:01:27 emryss has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
647 2013-06-05 09:01:35 <grau> sipa: just implemented blockchain scan with lookahead for a BIP32 public key. It takes just a few secs on my server
648 2013-06-05 09:02:10 <sydna> grau: you must have one crazy fast SSD
649 2013-06-05 09:02:26 <grau> no I has coding
650 2013-06-05 09:02:32 <grau> :)
651 2013-06-05 09:02:34 randy-waterhouse has left ()
652 2013-06-05 09:02:56 <grau> It is a service you can rent ;)
653 2013-06-05 09:03:06 <sipa> grau: just the UTXO set, or the entire chain?
654 2013-06-05 09:03:12 <grau> entire chain
655 2013-06-05 09:03:17 <sydna> you'd still have to be reading 9GB of block files though
656 2013-06-05 09:03:30 <sydna> presumably that's where your bottleneck is?
657 2013-06-05 09:03:31 <sipa> impressive; you're using an address-based index?
658 2013-06-05 09:03:38 <grau> I do have indices sydna
659 2013-06-05 09:03:54 <sydna> ah, again, I'm being stupid
660 2013-06-05 09:04:01 <grau> I use bloom filters to locate candidate blocks then parse and scan them
661 2013-06-05 09:04:28 <grau> The index is a precomputed bloom filter per block
662 2013-06-05 09:04:29 <jouke> grau: does it matter how far you look ahead?
663 2013-06-05 09:04:51 <grau> jouke: it does a since increases the number of patterns I match for
664 2013-06-05 09:05:25 <grau> it is however handy that keys are used in consecutive order, so most of the time is spent in finding the first key use
665 2013-06-05 09:06:34 <sipa> knowing a key's birthdate is very useful for that (at least, if it's not very old already)
666 2013-06-05 09:06:45 <grau> 3.5 secs to look ahead with 10
667 2013-06-05 09:07:02 <grau> java is so slow :)
668 2013-06-05 09:08:59 <grau> 9.8 secs for lookahead with 100
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670 2013-06-05 09:10:31 <jouke> grau: ah, bip32 specifies that?
671 2013-06-05 09:11:05 <grau> sipa: it is a single pass search assuming that first key used is one in the lookahead window, then keys are used consecutive with gaps smaller than the window
672 2013-06-05 09:11:20 <grau> jouke: yes it is BIP32 public key you pass to the scan
673 2013-06-05 09:11:50 <jouke> I mean that you use the keys in consecutive order.
674 2013-06-05 09:11:58 <jouke> Or do you scan the whole chain for all the keys?
675 2013-06-05 09:12:03 <grau> sipa: it picks up all transactions spending to those addresses and also all transactions spending them
676 2013-06-05 09:12:28 <sipa> there are 2^32 subnodes for each BIP32 node
677 2013-06-05 09:12:37 <sipa> scanning them all would be wasteful
678 2013-06-05 09:12:42 <grau> jouke: I scan the full chain but assume that key i+1 is only used after i
679 2013-06-05 09:12:50 <jouke> No, you say you first scan the key for first use.
680 2013-06-05 09:12:55 <jouke> grau: yes, ok, clear.
681 2013-06-05 09:13:10 <grau> sipa: I am not scanning for subnodes. just descendands of an extended public
682 2013-06-05 09:13:15 MrGuy has joined
683 2013-06-05 09:13:29 <sipa> technically not part of bip32, but i think a "best practices" section could suggest behaviour like that
684 2013-06-05 09:13:54 <grau> the best practice should suggest avoid gaps in key use
685 2013-06-05 09:14:00 <MrGuy> Are there any pure PoS coins out there, or are all the current PoS coins hybrid (maybe going pure PoS after initial minting)...?
686 2013-06-05 09:14:02 <jouke> But still, I don't think it will be used like that
687 2013-06-05 09:14:18 <sipa> grau: for internal keys, that's possible, but for not for external ones
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691 2013-06-05 09:14:43 <grau> what do you mean with external/internal?
692 2013-06-05 09:14:53 <sipa> internal: change-only
693 2013-06-05 09:15:07 <sipa> external: used to derive addresses you give out to receive coins on
694 2013-06-05 09:15:34 <sipa> for internal chains you can use a very low gap
695 2013-06-05 09:15:48 <grau> even for external you should attempt recycle if not received
696 2013-06-05 09:16:07 <sipa> that has slight privacy problems, but it's possible
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698 2013-06-05 09:16:38 <grau> yes but having big gaps is definitely expensive in audit scan or wallet reconstruction
699 2013-06-05 09:16:52 <sipa> (but with the payment protocol, the time between selecting the address and creation of the transactions becomes limited and short, so gaps can become much smaller)
700 2013-06-05 09:17:52 <jouke> yes, but you will have addresses that you give out that you don't have control over when it will first be used.
701 2013-06-05 09:18:04 <jouke> Look at all the donation-addresses on btctalk
702 2013-06-05 09:18:43 agnostic98 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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704 2013-06-05 09:19:21 <sydna> yeah, half of them will never be used
705 2013-06-05 09:20:12 <gwillen> so you can always send some coins to yourself every N addresses
706 2013-06-05 09:20:13 beethoven2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
707 2013-06-05 09:20:18 <gwillen> so the max gap will never exceed N
708 2013-06-05 09:20:29 <sipa> gwillen: "meh"
709 2013-06-05 09:20:34 <gwillen> yeah, I know
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713 2013-06-05 09:22:04 <sipa> the observed behaviour when your gap is too small is that you stop receiving *all* transactions
714 2013-06-05 09:22:05 <grau> What about using a sub account for receivables with a fixed pool size, then sweep them to "internal" accounts as received without gaps.
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716 2013-06-05 09:22:39 <sipa> or in case of a backup restore: failing to receive transactions after a certain point in time
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794 2013-06-05 11:24:37 <pjorrit> why doest compiling this stuff take forever? like wow...
795 2013-06-05 11:24:39 <pjorrit> does*
796 2013-06-05 11:24:49 <pjorrit> uh ww
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855 2013-06-05 13:08:38 <warren> how do I git pull directly from a github pull request again?
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858 2013-06-05 13:09:25 <CodeShark> git pull <remote> <branch>
859 2013-06-05 13:09:44 agricocb has joined
860 2013-06-05 13:10:16 <CodeShark> if you haven't cloned it yet, clone it first with git clone <remote>
861 2013-06-05 13:10:29 <lianj> git remote add
862 2013-06-05 13:10:39 <lianj> also, unlearn pull please :P
863 2013-06-05 13:10:49 <lianj> fetch + merge|rebase
864 2013-06-05 13:10:51 kenblazer____ has joined
865 2013-06-05 13:10:55 <warren> I mean, there's a hidden trick for github
866 2013-06-05 13:11:02 <CodeShark> or fetch, then checkout
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868 2013-06-05 13:11:14 <lianj> warren: no, why
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870 2013-06-05 13:11:24 <CodeShark> why would you want a hidden trick?
871 2013-06-05 13:11:28 <warren> where you can add a remote that has convenient access to pull requests
872 2013-06-05 13:11:39 <warren> to quickly test code that's in a pull request
873 2013-06-05 13:11:52 <CodeShark> that's not specific to github
874 2013-06-05 13:11:54 beethoven2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
875 2013-06-05 13:11:59 <sipa> CodeShark: it is
876 2013-06-05 13:12:02 <CodeShark> oh?
877 2013-06-05 13:12:06 <lianj> git remote add ...; git fetch --all
878 2013-06-05 13:12:08 <CodeShark> I've never used it then :)
879 2013-06-05 13:12:15 lolcookie__ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
880 2013-06-05 13:12:24 <sipa> there's a special remote you can add that gives you a view to all pull requests as branches
881 2013-06-05 13:12:27 <warren> someone told me to add this earlier:
882 2013-06-05 13:12:27 <warren> [remote "origin-pull"]
883 2013-06-05 13:12:28 <warren> fetch = +refs/pull/*:refs/remotes/origin-pull/*
884 2013-06-05 13:12:28 <warren> url = git://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.git
885 2013-06-05 13:12:39 <sipa> yeah, that
886 2013-06-05 13:12:42 <lianj> sipa: oh really? sounds kinda nice
887 2013-06-05 13:12:47 beethoven2 has joined
888 2013-06-05 13:12:50 <warren> I don't remember the syntax to pull directly from pull requests though.
889 2013-06-05 13:13:02 <sipa> git fetch origin-pull
890 2013-06-05 13:13:19 <sipa> git checkout origin-pull/pullreqnumber/merge
891 2013-06-05 13:13:22 <lianj> git fetch --all; git merge origin-pull/foobar then
892 2013-06-05 13:13:56 sensorii has joined
893 2013-06-05 13:14:24 <warren> sipa: do I need to check it out to see the commit ids to be able to cherry-pick from it?
894 2013-06-05 13:14:31 <sipa> no
895 2013-06-05 13:14:39 emryss has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
896 2013-06-05 13:14:46 <sipa> git log origin-pull/pullreqnum/merge
897 2013-06-05 13:14:52 <warren> ahhhh
898 2013-06-05 13:15:10 <lianj> tig origin-pull/pullreqnum/merge :P
899 2013-06-05 13:15:17 <warren> I've been such a fool to use git like cvs all these years. =)
900 2013-06-05 13:15:19 <sipa> tig?
901 2013-06-05 13:15:26 <lianj> sipa: try it
902 2013-06-05 13:15:46 <warren> [warren@newcaprica failcoin]$ tig
903 2013-06-05 13:15:46 <warren> bash: tig: command not found
904 2013-06-05 13:15:54 <lianj> well install and try
905 2013-06-05 13:16:06 <warren> oops, I leaked my new honest scamcoin
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1025 2013-06-05 14:05:20 <TD> good morning jgarzik
1026 2013-06-05 14:05:22 <TD> how is atlanta?
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1028 2013-06-05 14:05:39 <BlueMatt> s/atlanta/hotlanta/
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1030 2013-06-05 14:05:50 <jgarzik> TD, fun! This is where I attended university, so lots of old friends here.
1031 2013-06-05 14:05:55 <jgarzik> And lots of traffic :/
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1034 2013-06-05 14:06:01 <TD> it will always be ATL to me. too many years of the only references to atlanta in my world being datacenter codes :-)
1035 2013-06-05 14:06:03 <jgarzik> Drive 30 minutes to $anywhere :)
1036 2013-06-05 14:06:17 <TD> it's cool that the location worked out so well there
1037 2013-06-05 14:06:27 <TD> how is bitpay? working on anything cool
1038 2013-06-05 14:06:36 <jgarzik> It's ATL to us, too. Being an airport hub, everybody calls the "the ATL" etc.
1039 2013-06-05 14:06:45 <TD> heh
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1043 2013-06-05 14:07:37 <sipa> jgarzik: you had to move for your new job, or not?
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1045 2013-06-05 14:07:43 <jgarzik> TD, Still getting settled, breaking in the new environment. A bunch of projects, but most stuff you know or might guess: "keep bitcoind reliable and scaling", child pays for parent, the OP_RETURN pull req just posted last night etc.
1046 2013-06-05 14:07:54 <jgarzik> sipa, yes, big move @ last minute
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1048 2013-06-05 14:08:01 <TD> what's bitpays interest in OP_RETURN? or is it just in the bucket of general scalability things?
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1052 2013-06-05 14:08:10 <TD> child pays for parent === yes pleeeeeease! :)
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1056 2013-06-05 14:08:20 <jgarzik> TD, attaching metadata to transactions is thought useful for many purposes
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1058 2013-06-05 14:08:22 <sipa> needs moar puppyeyes
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1062 2013-06-05 14:08:44 <TD> we seem to have built up a backlog of pull reqs, and merge speed == opening new reqs speed
1063 2013-06-05 14:08:45 <BlueMatt> using OP_RETURN to add data to txn means you're doing something wrong
1064 2013-06-05 14:08:47 <TD> so the number isn't going down
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1066 2013-06-05 14:09:08 <BlueMatt> merge speed << new pull req speed
1067 2013-06-05 14:09:10 <sipa> BlueMatt: agree, but it's better than many alternatives that can't be prevented
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1070 2013-06-05 14:09:30 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: Not really. That was the IRC consensus: if you are going to do it, it's better than unspendable addresses
1071 2013-06-05 14:09:31 <BlueMatt> sipa: well, at a minimum OP_RETURN should come out the same version as payment protocol, or one later
1072 2013-06-05 14:09:47 <BlueMatt> otherwise it means people dont adopt payment protocol and use OP_RETURN because its the path of least resistance
1073 2013-06-05 14:09:49 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: The choice is OP_RETURN, one per TX or OP_DROP, one per txout
1074 2013-06-05 14:09:59 <jgarzik> BlueMatt: op_return is provably prunable
1075 2013-06-05 14:10:05 <TD> i'm hoping gavin will return to the payment protocol work soon. he seems to have made a big pile of changes recently that deleted my review comments, but i didn't figure out yet if they were actually addressed.
1076 2013-06-05 14:10:06 <BlueMatt> no, no, we should absolutely include it
1077 2013-06-05 14:10:09 <TD> as i no longer remember what they were :)
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1079 2013-06-05 14:10:14 <BlueMatt> I wasnt disagreeing on it in general
1080 2013-06-05 14:10:26 <BlueMatt> but it more specifically that bitpay shouldnt be using it :p
1081 2013-06-05 14:10:36 <BlueMatt> <jgarzik> TD, attaching metadata to transactions is thought useful for many purposes
1082 2013-06-05 14:10:50 <jgarzik> BitPay is also very interested in escrow transactions and multi-sig
1083 2013-06-05 14:11:03 <jgarzik> bigger merchants are going to want better security for spending
1084 2013-06-05 14:11:18 <BlueMatt> if bitpay starts using OP_RETURN to publish data, I will blame jgarzik
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1088 2013-06-05 14:12:47 <jgarzik> a while ago, I mentioned wanting to write a simple python tool that interacts with bitcoind's JSON-RPC API, and provides a simple UI for advanced or esoteric transaction building, such as collecting signatures for multi-sig
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1107 2013-06-05 14:13:23 <jgarzik> Looks like BitPay is interested in that, though, in node.js rather than python
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1110 2013-06-05 14:13:28 <jgarzik> so time to learn a new language ;p
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1112 2013-06-05 14:13:43 <lianj> BlueMatt: doesn't OP_RETURN invalidate a script anyway?
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1114 2013-06-05 14:14:49 <CodeShark> jgarzik: rebase complete
1115 2013-06-05 14:15:04 <jgarzik> CodeShark, awesome :)
1116 2013-06-05 14:15:06 <Vinnie_win_j> CodeShark: I've been following your work, you've been doing some really great stuff keep it up!
1117 2013-06-05 14:15:13 <jgarzik> CodeShark, one small step on the road to a cleaner codebase
1118 2013-06-05 14:15:16 <CodeShark> heya, Vinnie :)
1119 2013-06-05 14:15:17 <jgarzik> which we sorely need
1120 2013-06-05 14:15:31 <grau_> jgarzik: is there a page explaining what the OP_RETURN change is?
1121 2013-06-05 14:15:32 <Vinnie_win_j> jgarzik: goto cleanCode;
1122 2013-06-05 14:16:09 <BlueMatt> lianj: yes, thats what "proveably pruneable" means
1123 2013-06-05 14:16:47 <jgarzik> grau_, the pull request. Summary: makes a new transaction template standard: one and only one output may be OP_RETURN<data>, where data is <= 80 bytes in length
1124 2013-06-05 14:16:47 <lianj> BlueMatt: ah sorry didn't read the other backlog
1125 2013-06-05 14:17:28 <jgarzik> The pull request: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2738
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1127 2013-06-05 14:17:40 <jgarzik> grau_, ^
1128 2013-06-05 14:17:51 <jgarzik> Vinnie_win_j, hehe
1129 2013-06-05 14:18:13 <TD> jgarzik: maybe you can help out with code review too
1130 2013-06-05 14:18:19 <CodeShark> : goto CodeShark;
1131 2013-06-05 14:18:19 <grau_> jgarzik: thanks. Any discussion on what this is for or review?
1132 2013-06-05 14:18:26 <Vinnie_win_j> Please...just Vinnie_win...damn NICKSERV
1133 2013-06-05 14:18:26 <CodeShark> stack overflow
1134 2013-06-05 14:18:53 <jgarzik> grau_, long running discussion about metadata, timestamping, etc.
1135 2013-06-05 14:19:00 <jgarzik> (it's worth reviewing here)
1136 2013-06-05 14:19:11 <jgarzik> grau_, people are currently putting data into unspendable addresses
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1138 2013-06-05 14:19:24 <jgarzik> grau_, separately, there are many uses for attaching a hash or two to a transaction
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1141 2013-06-05 14:20:09 <sipa> ^ +1
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1144 2013-06-05 14:20:10 <sipa> jgarzik: what BlueMatt means (i think) is that for many use cases it's not actually necessary to attach any data to transactions, but that will only be convenient with a payment protocol
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1146 2013-06-05 14:20:10 <TD> yes, sure
1147 2013-06-05 14:20:10 <TD> but it's still a simple scalability win
1148 2013-06-05 14:20:10 <TD> implementation cost < potential benefit
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1150 2013-06-05 14:20:10 <TD> payment protocol will solve poverty and war, but it's also more effort :-)
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1155 2013-06-05 14:20:13 <jgarzik> grau_, the current proposals are: (1) per txout, permit OP_DROP<data> as a standard transaction, or (2) one per transaction, permit an additional trout OP_RETURN<data>
1156 2013-06-05 14:20:38 <jgarzik> either change is simply making a new transaction template standard
1157 2013-06-05 14:21:02 <grau_> thanks
1158 2013-06-05 14:21:18 <jgarzik> er, txout
1159 2013-06-05 14:21:20 <jgarzik> not trout
1160 2013-06-05 14:21:25 * jgarzik kicks OSX autocorrect
1161 2013-06-05 14:21:30 <CodeShark> I'd like to use bitcoin to send trout
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1164 2013-06-05 14:21:42 <BlueMatt> well in any case, as long as payment protocol gets merged in 0.9, my point is that I'd prefer to not see OP_RETURN before then
1165 2013-06-05 14:21:44 <jgarzik> my transaction has 990 trouts! :)
1166 2013-06-05 14:22:03 <TD> lol. i hate OS X autocorrect
1167 2013-06-05 14:22:14 <TD> BlueMatt: yeah i doubt we'll see bitpay using it for messages or anything like that
1168 2013-06-05 14:22:15 <BlueMatt> a desktop os...with autocorrect.......
1169 2013-06-05 14:22:19 <CodeShark> just turn it off :)
1170 2013-06-05 14:22:20 <helo> does gavin not feel that OP_RETURN is devaluing the payment protocol?
1171 2013-06-05 14:22:28 <TD> they aren't really related
1172 2013-06-05 14:22:39 <jgarzik> BitPay is all about bitcoin-the-currency
1173 2013-06-05 14:22:51 <jgarzik> little interest in bitcoin-as-shitty-messaging-platform :)
1174 2013-06-05 14:22:56 <TD> jgarzik: i think things like multisig aren't features themselves, they're components of features that need to be part of higher level protocols.
1175 2013-06-05 14:22:59 <TD> like you say, escrow
1176 2013-06-05 14:23:04 <TD> but do you really mean, dispute mediation? they're not the same
1177 2013-06-05 14:23:45 <jgarzik> TD, mostly higher level things that employ multi-sig. ex.: requiring 3-of-5 managers at a firm holding lots of bitcoins to sign, before spending
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1179 2013-06-05 14:24:05 <TD> ok. so group wallets, for instance
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1181 2013-06-05 14:24:08 <jgarzik> "bitcoin storage" -- reliably and securely storing $millions worth of bitcoins -- is becoming an issue
1182 2013-06-05 14:24:11 <jgarzik> TD, yep
1183 2013-06-05 14:24:11 <TD> that's the kind of thing that needs some UI design first
1184 2013-06-05 14:24:16 <jgarzik> yep
1185 2013-06-05 14:24:26 <jgarzik> TD, it's mostly UI work, not low level work, agreed
1186 2013-06-05 14:24:48 <jgarzik> "partial transaction support" -- most wallets have little or not support for passing around incomplete transactions, signing them, etc.
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1188 2013-06-05 14:25:05 <TD> yeah. i'm going to write some documentation on how to do that at the api level with bitcoinj soon
1189 2013-06-05 14:25:05 <jgarzik> Armory is a lot further along in that regard, than others
1190 2013-06-05 14:25:08 <TD> as it's a common question
1191 2013-06-05 14:25:10 <TD> yeah
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1193 2013-06-05 14:25:38 <sipa> TD: what do you think is correct behaviour when a payment request is processed, but the payment_uri can't be reached?
1194 2013-06-05 14:25:42 <grau_> any output with OP_RETURN will be un-spendable, right? Should that then not rather be 0 output.
1195 2013-06-05 14:26:12 <jgarzik> grau_, provably unspendable, yes
1196 2013-06-05 14:26:17 <jgarzik> grau_, thus, provably prunable
1197 2013-06-05 14:26:34 <grau_> thus wasted forever.
1198 2013-06-05 14:26:39 <jgarzik> grau_, I cannot parse your "should that then?" question
1199 2013-06-05 14:27:01 <grau_> I mean if the purpose is the message only why spend BTC with it.
1200 2013-06-05 14:27:02 <sipa> grau_: provably unspendable == don't need to be stored at all
1201 2013-06-05 14:27:14 <TD> grau_: can be for fees
1202 2013-06-05 14:27:22 <jgarzik> grau_, yes, but less so than currently methods (unspendable addresses, bloating UTXO forever), never needs to be stored in UTXO
1203 2013-06-05 14:27:30 <jgarzik> *current
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1205 2013-06-05 14:29:20 <CodeShark> I believe sooner or later there will have to be a way to rid the UTXO set of bloat
1206 2013-06-05 14:29:26 <CodeShark> forcibly if necessary
1207 2013-06-05 14:29:30 * TD shrugs
1208 2013-06-05 14:29:38 <TD> wallets that auto-defragment is the next step
1209 2013-06-05 14:29:44 <TD> but a few hundred megs in a database isn't going to kill anyone.
1210 2013-06-05 14:30:00 <TD> the 0.8.2 fee changes should stop it bloating up by too much more, i'd hope. the payment protocol, once deployed, even more.
1211 2013-06-05 14:30:12 <sipa> agree
1212 2013-06-05 14:30:40 <grau_> TD: you mean if provably un-spendable then it can enter the coinbase?
1213 2013-06-05 14:30:59 <sipa> ... what does the coinbase have to do with anything?
1214 2013-06-05 14:31:04 * jgarzik wonders, too
1215 2013-06-05 14:31:15 <TD> it was a reply to my comment, which upon being revisited, actually made no sense
1216 2013-06-05 14:31:17 <sipa> ah, you mean claim as fee?
1217 2013-06-05 14:31:20 <CodeShark> perhaps grau is talking about some demurrage scheme
1218 2013-06-05 14:31:28 <sipa> that'd be a hard fork
1219 2013-06-05 14:31:36 <TD> grau_: you're right, i'm not sure we should allow destruction of money via OP_RETURN outputs. but jgarzik's patch doesn't allow it
1220 2013-06-05 14:31:38 <TD> i think
1221 2013-06-05 14:31:42 <grau_> I mean if it is an unspeandable output, then it could be included as fee into coinbase
1222 2013-06-05 14:32:52 <jgarzik> my patch just makes one transaction type nonstandard -> standard
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1224 2013-06-05 14:33:26 <CodeShark> I sorta like the idea of a fee for keeping unprunable data in the UTXO set based on the size of the data, the size of the UTXO set, and the length of time the data remains unprunable
1225 2013-06-05 14:33:27 <grau_> jgarzik: should it not be standard only in conjunction with zero output?
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1227 2013-06-05 14:33:47 <CodeShark> if the fee exceeds the output, it gets automatically pruned
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1236 2013-06-05 14:34:42 <jgarzik> grau_, that's a protocol change
1237 2013-06-05 14:34:43 <jgarzik> grau_, not contemplating that
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1239 2013-06-05 14:34:59 <CodeShark> rather than devaluing the coin (i.e. fee proportional to the amount of coin), the fee should be based on the amount of data we need to keep around
1240 2013-06-05 14:35:09 <grau_> zero output can be mined right? It is only the relay that would change.
1241 2013-06-05 14:35:31 <CodeShark> so effectively you "rent" UTXO space from the network
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1244 2013-06-05 14:35:56 <The_Fly> interesting...
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1254 2013-06-05 14:40:22 <CodeShark> and you buy block chain space
1255 2013-06-05 14:40:32 <CodeShark> via fees, like we do now
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1258 2013-06-05 14:43:18 <t7> CodeShark: sounds sensible
1259 2013-06-05 14:45:03 RazielZ has joined
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1261 2013-06-05 14:45:53 gdbz_ is now known as gdbz
1262 2013-06-05 14:46:13 <helo> will there be a MAX_UTXO_SIZE to make it scarce?
1263 2013-06-05 14:46:40 <jgarzik> grau_, lost bitcoins are not a problem for bitcoin
1264 2013-06-05 14:46:48 <jgarzik> grau_, if people want to throw away bitcoins, that's just fine
1265 2013-06-05 14:46:55 <jgarzik> helo, no
1266 2013-06-05 14:47:59 <grau_> jgarzik: I know it is not a problem. Just do not like it.
1267 2013-06-05 14:48:02 <CodeShark> UTXO rent could be effectively a relay fee
1268 2013-06-05 14:48:09 <CodeShark> or hmmm
1269 2013-06-05 14:48:14 <CodeShark> not sure how that could work
1270 2013-06-05 14:48:24 filleokus has quit (Excess Flood)
1271 2013-06-05 14:49:32 <CodeShark> there's gotta be a way to make it work, though :)
1272 2013-06-05 14:49:33 filleokus has joined
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1286 2013-06-05 14:51:41 * jgarzik_ looks at jgarzik suspiciously
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1288 2013-06-05 14:52:20 <CodeShark> a rule which states that the sum of outputs of a transaction must never exceed the inputs minus some number calculated from 1) the amount of space taken by the outputs claimed, 2) the number of blocks separating the block that creates the output from the block that claims it, 3) the total UTXO size at the time it is claimed - and if claiming an output ever costs the same amount or more than the value, it becomes in
1289 2013-06-05 14:52:20 <CodeShark> valid
1290 2013-06-05 14:52:25 <CodeShark> *invalid
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1296 2013-06-05 14:53:53 <CodeShark> but there are other issues here - like reorgs and drastic sudden changes in UTXO size
1297 2013-06-05 14:53:57 oru_ has joined
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1323 2013-06-05 14:54:11 <CodeShark> which make it hard to just categorically consider a UTXO forever invalid
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1329 2013-06-05 14:55:31 <CodeShark> or I suppose it could be such that immediately at the moment it becomes equal or more expensive to claim it than its value it is forever invalid
1330 2013-06-05 14:55:44 <CodeShark> regardless of what happens later on
1331 2013-06-05 14:56:05 ivan\_ is now known as ivan\
1332 2013-06-05 14:56:32 <CodeShark> would be nice in this case to somehow store the total UTXO size in the block somehow to make it easier for SPV nodes
1333 2013-06-05 14:57:35 <CodeShark> and while we're at it, to store a hash of the UTXO set :p
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1342 2013-06-05 15:00:23 <CodeShark> what's up with freenode?
1343 2013-06-05 15:00:57 <Ry4an> CodeShark: some servers are having a bad day.
1344 2013-06-05 15:01:01 <Scrat> freenode be freenodin'
1345 2013-06-05 15:01:30 Guest98310 is now known as saulimus
1346 2013-06-05 15:01:35 <TD> http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/06/bitcoin_retai/
1347 2013-06-05 15:01:36 <TD> fail
1348 2013-06-05 15:01:40 <TD> i knew this would start coming up eventually
1349 2013-06-05 15:01:47 <CodeShark> anyhow, there'd be additional incentives for miners to tolerate the extra overhead of computing UTXO hashes if they could also use the system to charge for rent
1350 2013-06-05 15:02:29 crank has joined
1351 2013-06-05 15:02:53 <CodeShark> and it might solve several major problems with bitcoin in one go :)
1352 2013-06-05 15:03:00 justusranvier_ is now known as justusranvier
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1357 2013-06-05 15:06:22 <CodeShark> where are gmaxwell and petertodd? :p
1358 2013-06-05 15:07:20 djoot has joined
1359 2013-06-05 15:07:37 <gmaxwell> I'm here, but I've been busy.
1360 2013-06-05 15:07:49 djoot has joined
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1372 2013-06-05 15:13:35 [ has quit (||]!~imsaguy@unaffiliated/imsaguy|Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1373 2013-06-05 15:13:57 <Zoop_> new difficulty
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1375 2013-06-05 15:14:19 <Zoop_> 30% harder to mine
1376 2013-06-05 15:14:20 yano has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1377 2013-06-05 15:14:25 <Zoop_> quite the jump
1378 2013-06-05 15:15:37 <epscy> i'm going to ask what is probably a dumb question
1379 2013-06-05 15:15:52 <epscy> but are the devs planning to do anything about the size of the blockchain?
1380 2013-06-05 15:15:56 jaequery has joined
1381 2013-06-05 15:16:09 <epscy> i run a node on a cheap VPS and it is running out of disk space now
1382 2013-06-05 15:16:17 <epscy> so i will probably stop running it
1383 2013-06-05 15:16:34 <epscy> since everything else i use that VPS doesn't need tons of disk space
1384 2013-06-05 15:17:45 <TD> yes, there is a Plan
1385 2013-06-05 15:17:48 * TD looks at sipa
1386 2013-06-05 15:18:04 <CodeShark> VPS backwards is SPV :)
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1389 2013-06-05 15:18:20 <jgarzik> heh
1390 2013-06-05 15:19:36 <epscy> ok, is anything likely to happen soon?
1391 2013-06-05 15:19:45 <TD> CodeShark: haha
1392 2013-06-05 15:19:48 <CodeShark> nothing is likely to happen soon - this is bitcoin :p
1393 2013-06-05 15:19:55 <epscy> yeah i guess i will be switching to a SPV client
1394 2013-06-05 15:19:56 <TD> epscy: realistically, end of summer, maybe
1395 2013-06-05 15:20:03 <epscy> already made preperations
1396 2013-06-05 15:20:11 <TD> epscy: but how much does your provider charge for disk space?
1397 2013-06-05 15:20:17 <TD> epscy: an additional 50 GB or so should be super cheap
1398 2013-06-05 15:20:57 <CodeShark> disk space is cheap - it's I/O that's expensive
1399 2013-06-05 15:20:57 <epscy> TD: i have checked recently but i don't think it was that cheap, a lot of VPS providers price extra disk price like gillette prices razor blades
1400 2013-06-05 15:21:07 <epscy> *haven't checked recently
1401 2013-06-05 15:21:28 <TD> the entire block chain is hardly large at the moment. so would definitely encourage you to look at other VPS providers
1402 2013-06-05 15:22:23 <jgarzik> 9.6GB here, including all leveldb indices, address database, etc.
1403 2013-06-05 15:23:05 <epscy> yeah i mean this is a super cheap VPS, and it only has 20GB of disk
1404 2013-06-05 15:23:15 <epscy> so maybe i should think about upgrading
1405 2013-06-05 15:23:21 <The_Fly> yes
1406 2013-06-05 15:23:31 <epscy> i'm just starting to worry about how quickly the blockchain seems to be growing
1407 2013-06-05 15:23:43 <epscy> it was what 6GB at the start of the year?
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1409 2013-06-05 15:24:22 <gonffen> that sounds about right
1410 2013-06-05 15:24:31 <Scrat> 55% of it is SD bets
1411 2013-06-05 15:24:41 <epscy> so 3GB every 6 months?
1412 2013-06-05 15:24:55 <epscy> am i the only person who thinks that sounds a bit high?
1413 2013-06-05 15:25:02 <epscy> admittedly we had a bubble
1414 2013-06-05 15:25:07 <gonffen> blockchain.info says it was closer to 4GB
1415 2013-06-05 15:25:29 <gonffen> for whatever that is worth http://blockchain.info/charts/blocks-size
1416 2013-06-05 15:25:37 yano has joined
1417 2013-06-05 15:25:49 <jgarzik> also, 0.8.2 release might help in reducing growth rate
1418 2013-06-05 15:26:00 <epscy> ah the dust thing
1419 2013-06-05 15:26:11 <Scrat> epscy: it's not. consider maxing the 1 MB on every block, that's 52 GB/year
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1423 2013-06-05 15:28:13 <epscy> i suppose
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1426 2013-06-05 15:29:01 <Scrat> also like I said, 55% of the size is SD bets
1427 2013-06-05 15:29:05 <grau_> the blockhain is actually grew x10 from jul11 to jul12 and seems will be x10 that until jul13
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1431 2013-06-05 15:29:41 <grau_> http://blockchain.info/charts/blocks-size?showDataPoints=false&show_header=true&daysAverageString=1×pan=all&scale=1&address=
1432 2013-06-05 15:30:44 gribble has joined
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1434 2013-06-05 15:31:13 <grau_> there will be no "enthusiasts" running a full node in a year
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1437 2013-06-05 15:33:59 <jgarzik> grau_, P2P nodes are a precious resource? and currently 100% volunteer.
1438 2013-06-05 15:34:15 <jgarzik> grau_, Tragedy Of The Commons etc.
1439 2013-06-05 15:34:22 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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1441 2013-06-05 15:34:46 <epscy> jgarzik: are they a precious resource?
1442 2013-06-05 15:35:03 <epscy> are we heading to a time where you have pay just to get your tx relayed?
1443 2013-06-05 15:35:07 <grau_> having 100GB blcockhain with corresponding load on validation and disk seek will likely turn running a full node to an expensive hobby or for profit.
1444 2013-06-05 15:35:09 <jgarzik> epscy, Yes. Without P2P nodes, we have no bitcoin :)
1445 2013-06-05 15:35:21 Subo1978_ has joined
1446 2013-06-05 15:35:27 <epscy> the miners can still talk to each other
1447 2013-06-05 15:35:46 <epscy> and they have an incentive to store the blockchain
1448 2013-06-05 15:35:46 <jgarzik> grau_, well, more likely merchants and miners
1449 2013-06-05 15:35:54 <epscy> nobody else does really
1450 2013-06-05 15:35:56 <jgarzik> grau_, would be difficult to find a way to compensate directly for running a node
1451 2013-06-05 15:36:14 <grau_> jgarzik: I am not worried about P2P it will just not be P2P of individual wallets.
1452 2013-06-05 15:36:51 altgribble has joined
1453 2013-06-05 15:37:55 <tgs3> grau_: 5000 entusiast run freenet nodes volountarly, and tousands for tor and so on
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1458 2013-06-05 15:38:49 <grau_> tgs3: yes, and these will be the numbers for Bitcoin too. But there will be magnitudes more Bitcoin user not running a full node.
1459 2013-06-05 15:39:27 <grau_> tgs3: 5000 is already down from current about 10000
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1461 2013-06-05 15:39:39 <tgs3> speaking of high volume, do current bitcoind handles well the big blocks and doesn't hang the computer with IO?
1462 2013-06-05 15:39:46 <gonffen> tgs3: don't both of those services allow you to limit the resources they utilize?
1463 2013-06-05 15:40:07 <tgs3> gonffen: yes but well freenet if far from perfect about IO usage. but improved.
1464 2013-06-05 15:40:17 <Scrat> tgs3: if you run it on a 5400 rpm drive you're gonna have a bad time
1465 2013-06-05 15:40:59 <Scrat> as for hanging the computer, provided that you use a modern OS, no
1466 2013-06-05 15:41:08 <epscy> ok well thanks for your answers, i'm sure it's a question you have been asked many times before
1467 2013-06-05 15:41:10 <tgs3> linux is bad at IO nicening
1468 2013-06-05 15:41:30 <Scrat> linux is bad at realtime nicening
1469 2013-06-05 15:41:45 <tgs3> even with deadline shed it sucked for me
1470 2013-06-05 15:42:03 <jgarzik> Your OS kernel cannot fix stupid userland I/O patterns ;p
1471 2013-06-05 15:42:20 <jgarzik> Or simply needing more I/O bandwidth or seek ability than the storage provides
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1481 2013-06-05 15:48:52 <sipa> ;;stats
1482 2013-06-05 15:48:52 <altgribble> I have 2 registered users with 2 registered hostmasks; 1 owner and 0 admins.
1483 2013-06-05 15:49:09 <sipa> ;;info
1484 2013-06-05 15:49:09 <altgribble> (info [--key|--address] <nick>) -- Returns the registration details of registered user <nick>. If '--key' option is given, interpret <nick> as a GPG key ID.
1485 2013-06-05 15:49:17 <sipa> ;;bc,stats
1486 2013-06-05 15:49:18 <altgribble> sipa: Error: This command is not available, as this is an alternate Gribble system. Some authing, rating, order book, and other miscellaneous commands are not available.
1487 2013-06-05 15:49:38 RazielXYZ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1488 2013-06-05 15:49:42 <sipa> ;;diffstats
1489 2013-06-05 15:49:42 <altgribble> sipa: Error: This command is not available, as this is an alternate Gribble system. Some authing, rating, order book, and other miscellaneous commands are not available.
1490 2013-06-05 15:51:36 <jgarzik> ;;damnstats
1491 2013-06-05 15:51:36 <altgribble> jgarzik: Error: This command is not available, as this is an alternate Gribble system. Some authing, rating, order book, and other miscellaneous commands are not available.
1492 2013-06-05 15:51:46 ivan` has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1493 2013-06-05 15:52:00 <kinlo> :)
1494 2013-06-05 15:52:06 <kinlo> the joy of bots
1495 2013-06-05 15:52:14 <Scrat> ;;diff
1496 2013-06-05 15:52:15 <altgribble> 1.5605632681285927E7
1497 2013-06-05 15:52:26 <Scrat> useless
1498 2013-06-05 15:52:48 nus has joined
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1505 2013-06-05 15:56:33 <jgarzik> hrm
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1508 2013-06-05 15:56:55 <jgarzik> tempted to add logging to the "error: non-standard transaction type" messages, to better classify those errors
1509 2013-06-05 15:57:07 cads has quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
1510 2013-06-05 15:57:16 <jgarzik> better discover the rule that causes the transaction to fail relay
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1534 2013-06-05 16:03:24 <richardus> any bitcoin wiki admins on? can you let 'ldrgn' edit/create wiki pages? i'd like to write about max_block_size
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1724 2013-06-05 16:44:12 <rg> hi can someone help me with litecoin
1725 2013-06-05 16:44:13 <rg> har har
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1727 2013-06-05 16:45:31 <helo> sorry to interrupt the lively discussion... but can an SPV node detect if a block is too big?
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1733 2013-06-05 16:48:40 <sipa> helo: if it downloads it :)
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1736 2013-06-05 16:50:23 <helo> sounds legit
1737 2013-06-05 16:50:47 <gmaxwell> helo: currently a SPV node can't verify much except for difficulty... though it can tell if it has an impossible number of transactions even without downloading it.
1738 2013-06-05 16:51:18 <helo> they can't validate the coinbase reward?
1739 2013-06-05 16:51:28 <gmaxwell> No.
1740 2013-06-05 16:51:38 <helo> (imagining pretend world where only miners can afford to run full nodes, and the miners decide to increase their reward)
1741 2013-06-05 16:52:00 <gmaxwell> Right. It's important that parties other than miners run nodes that validate.
1742 2013-06-05 16:57:59 <pjorrit> you guys just hate miners
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1746 2013-06-05 17:00:54 <helo> we think everyone deserves equal hate. that's kind of the whole point of bitcoin, after all.
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1748 2013-06-05 17:02:55 <etotheipi_> hey, an arbitrary node will *not* serve arbitrary transactions, but *will* serve arbitrary blocks, correct?
1749 2013-06-05 17:03:06 <etotheipi_> as long as they are on the main chain
1750 2013-06-05 17:03:22 <sipa> etotheipi_: correct
1751 2013-06-05 17:03:32 <sipa> even those not on the main chain, i think
1752 2013-06-05 17:03:45 <sipa> also: likely going to change
1753 2013-06-05 17:03:49 <etotheipi_> ooh, right, hence Sergio_De_Lerner's post
1754 2013-06-05 17:04:06 <sipa> pjorrit: any way you look at it, mining in general is a necessary even
1755 2013-06-05 17:04:09 <sipa> *evil
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1772 2013-06-05 17:17:23 <bitRipperX> has anyone tried the 0mq patch for the satoshi client?
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1820 2013-06-05 17:34:14 <TheLordOfTime> what's the minimum version of the boost libraries needed for bitcoin-qt?
1821 2013-06-05 17:34:16 <TheLordOfTime> for building
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1838 2013-06-05 17:39:44 <helo> it appears 1.35 is new enough... not sure about older.
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1840 2013-06-05 17:40:06 <sipa> depends on the OS i think
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1846 2013-06-05 17:43:04 <TheLordOfTime> sipa: see, i have the 1.46 libraries because Ubuntu 12.04 has that as "default" but the libraries aren't being found by ld...
1847 2013-06-05 17:43:13 <TheLordOfTime> hence me asking what the minimum versions needed are.
1848 2013-06-05 17:43:30 yano has joined
1849 2013-06-05 17:44:02 <sipa> are you sure you have the dev libs installed?
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1856 2013-06-05 17:49:43 <helo> i'm pretty sure i've linked to 1.46 on ubuntu 12.04
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1873 2013-06-05 18:01:43 <TheLordOfTime> helo: sipa: absolutely certain the dev libs are installed
1874 2013-06-05 18:02:06 <TheLordOfTime> helo: sipa: pulled the build-deps from BlueMatt's source package on the PPAs, so the build-deps should have been satisfied
1875 2013-06-05 18:02:16 <TheLordOfTime> unless there's undocumented build deps.
1876 2013-06-05 18:02:37 <sipa> so, which library can't be found?
1877 2013-06-05 18:02:50 <TheLordOfTime> these're the ld errors:
1878 2013-06-05 18:02:50 <TheLordOfTime> /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lboost_system-mgw46-mt-sd-1_53
1879 2013-06-05 18:02:51 <TheLordOfTime> /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lboost_filesystem-mgw46-mt-sd-1_53
1880 2013-06-05 18:02:51 <TheLordOfTime> /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lboost_program_options-mgw46-mt-sd-1_53
1881 2013-06-05 18:02:51 <TheLordOfTime> /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lboost_thread-mgw46-mt-sd-1_53
1882 2013-06-05 18:03:07 * TheLordOfTime shrugs
1883 2013-06-05 18:03:11 <TheLordOfTime> maybe something somewhere is broken
1884 2013-06-05 18:03:19 <sipa> wait, you're doing a crosscompile to windows?
1885 2013-06-05 18:03:31 <TheLordOfTime> sipa: this is what it's asking for from source.
1886 2013-06-05 18:03:35 <TheLordOfTime> no windows crossbuilding here
1887 2013-06-05 18:03:38 * TheLordOfTime shrugs
1888 2013-06-05 18:03:45 <TheLordOfTime> wrong source possibly
1889 2013-06-05 18:03:46 <pjorrit> that looks weird
1890 2013-06-05 18:03:46 <sipa> well you are doing a crosscompile
1891 2013-06-05 18:03:56 <sipa> what command?
1892 2013-06-05 18:03:57 <TheLordOfTime> TBH it's not my system, so they probably got the wrong source
1893 2013-06-05 18:04:05 <sipa> how are you building?
1894 2013-06-05 18:04:06 * TheLordOfTime redownloads the source
1895 2013-06-05 18:04:13 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1896 2013-06-05 18:04:13 <TheLordOfTime> command line build
1897 2013-06-05 18:04:16 jordandotdev has joined
1898 2013-06-05 18:04:18 michagogo has joined
1899 2013-06-05 18:04:20 <TheLordOfTime> but tbh i'm just sick of building this
1900 2013-06-05 18:04:21 whiterabbit has joined
1901 2013-06-05 18:04:25 * TheLordOfTime grabs the PPA and throws it on the system
1902 2013-06-05 18:04:38 <sipa> ...
1903 2013-06-05 18:04:42 <TheLordOfTime> tired of dealing with bullcrap from building
1904 2013-06-05 18:04:43 turboroot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1905 2013-06-05 18:04:43 <sipa> _which_ command line are you using?
1906 2013-06-05 18:04:58 <TheLordOfTime> sipa: thought that'd be obvious, bash on linux
1907 2013-06-05 18:05:02 <TheLordOfTime> since most use bash by default
1908 2013-06-05 18:05:08 wrabbit has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1909 2013-06-05 18:05:09 <sipa> not which shell
1910 2013-06-05 18:05:12 <TheLordOfTime> ...
1911 2013-06-05 18:05:13 whiterabbit is now known as wrabbit
1912 2013-06-05 18:05:17 <sipa> which _exact_ command are you typing into the shell
1913 2013-06-05 18:05:19 <TheLordOfTime> sipa: you need to be more specific.
1914 2013-06-05 18:05:26 jdnavarro has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1915 2013-06-05 18:05:31 <TheLordOfTime> sipa: qmake; make
1916 2013-06-05 18:05:54 <TheLordOfTime> as i said, i'm tired of building from source
1917 2013-06-05 18:05:56 gjs278 has joined
1918 2013-06-05 18:05:58 * TheLordOfTime has been at this for two days
1919 2013-06-05 18:06:18 <TheLordOfTime> since the bitcoin-qt client exists in a ppa i'd rather just install something that's already built (that)
1920 2013-06-05 18:06:22 <dugo> try building on AIX and you are in for a real treat
1921 2013-06-05 18:06:24 <TheLordOfTime> than hack away at the code in the command line
1922 2013-06-05 18:06:37 <TheLordOfTime> to hell with what my friend wants >.>
1923 2013-06-05 18:06:54 <sipa> i don't understand why it wants to build for windows
1924 2013-06-05 18:06:57 <sipa> that makes no sense
1925 2013-06-05 18:07:02 <TheLordOfTime> that's what i don't get either
1926 2013-06-05 18:07:09 <TheLordOfTime> so i'm just saying "screw it"
1927 2013-06-05 18:07:16 eculver has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1928 2013-06-05 18:07:20 <sipa> maybe a cross compiler is installed and no native compiler?
1929 2013-06-05 18:07:23 turboroot has joined
1930 2013-06-05 18:07:33 eculver has joined
1931 2013-06-05 18:07:38 <TheLordOfTime> shouldn't be, with build-essential it installs gcc, g++, etc.
1932 2013-06-05 18:08:15 <sipa> indeed
1933 2013-06-05 18:08:27 Subo1978 has joined
1934 2013-06-05 18:08:29 <sipa> can you do a make clean?
1935 2013-06-05 18:08:34 <BlueMatt> qmake is assuming you are on windows...possible bug in the .pro
1936 2013-06-05 18:08:40 crank has joined
1937 2013-06-05 18:08:41 <sipa> make clean; qmake; make
1938 2013-06-05 18:08:59 <TheLordOfTime> i can after the rest of the system updates
1939 2013-06-05 18:09:06 <BlueMatt> git clean -f -x -d
1940 2013-06-05 18:10:35 brson has joined
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1943 2013-06-05 18:11:07 <jgarzik> what BlueMatt said :)
1944 2013-06-05 18:11:42 * BlueMatt waits for disconnect as /home is cleared because its partially in git...
1945 2013-06-05 18:12:14 agnostic98 has joined
1946 2013-06-05 18:14:20 <sipa> oh, perhaps it was copied from a windows system, after trying to build there first?
1947 2013-06-05 18:15:13 Toresh has joined
1948 2013-06-05 18:15:31 <TheLordOfTime> could be
1949 2013-06-05 18:15:34 <TheLordOfTime> NFC though
1950 2013-06-05 18:16:15 <TheLordOfTime> i took a copy of what they were trying to build, and the list of their packages, I'll go building later on a VM to try and replicate the circumstances
1951 2013-06-05 18:16:23 <TheLordOfTime> see whether they did something stupid or something
1952 2013-06-05 18:16:31 alphaguru has quit ()
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1961 2013-06-05 18:30:19 <Blitzboom> will this transaction ever be confirmed? https://blockchain.info/tx/7d3ca4c5da90ec7c16303bdcfadfeb1f885583eea1e10b6479ca5abacfa3fe58
1962 2013-06-05 18:30:38 <Blitzboom> i thought the BTC were enough not to be considered spam without a fee, but looks like i was wrong
1963 2013-06-05 18:31:04 <TheUni> sipa: thanks for the help. now to scramble and push things up before the file layout changes yet again
1964 2013-06-05 18:31:19 <Scrat> Blitzboom: yes
1965 2013-06-05 18:31:27 <Scrat> could take an hour or so
1966 2013-06-05 18:31:29 <Scrat> maybe 2
1967 2013-06-05 18:31:39 <Blitzboom> Scrat: thanks
1968 2013-06-05 18:32:01 <Blitzboom> are there any general "guidelines"? i watched a few almost empty blocks created
1969 2013-06-05 18:32:15 <Blitzboom> thought it's weird that the various pools didn't bother to fill up their blocks
1970 2013-06-05 18:32:17 <sipa> Blitzboom: in 3 weeks or so it would meet the standard free policy
1971 2013-06-05 18:32:31 <sipa> Blitzboom: but obv not all miners use the same policy
1972 2013-06-05 18:33:03 <sipa> TheUni: are file layout changes such a problem?
1973 2013-06-05 18:33:19 <TheUni> sipa: just means i have to rebase every time
1974 2013-06-05 18:33:22 <Blitzboom> are there any recommendations for when to send a fee?
1975 2013-06-05 18:33:38 <sipa> Blitzboom: i personally always add a (minimal) fee
1976 2013-06-05 18:33:47 <Blitzboom> 0.005 makes some transactions impractical already (being 7% of $10)
1977 2013-06-05 18:33:51 <Blitzboom> 6%*
1978 2013-06-05 18:33:55 <sipa> 0.0005
1979 2013-06-05 18:34:10 justusranvier has joined
1980 2013-06-05 18:34:10 <Blitzboom> yeah, forgot a 0
1981 2013-06-05 18:34:18 <TheUni> sipa: by that i mean every time a file is added/removed...
1982 2013-06-05 18:34:19 <Blitzboom> but about 6 USD cents
1983 2013-06-05 18:34:43 <TheUni> looks like i was wrong about #2154 though, no new/deleted files there
1984 2013-06-05 18:34:45 <Blitzboom> sipa: i sent it from mtgox, so only had the choice of that fee or not
1985 2013-06-05 18:34:55 <sipa> TheUni: 2154 adds core.h/.cpp
1986 2013-06-05 18:35:00 <TheUni> ah wait, core.cpp
1987 2013-06-05 18:35:01 <TheUni> yea
1988 2013-06-05 18:35:05 <Blitzboom> i'm still used to the old bitcoin network … i'm not sure what changed here?
1989 2013-06-05 18:35:11 <Blitzboom> have the pools implemented different rules?
1990 2013-06-05 18:35:11 <sipa> payment protocol will likely add files too
1991 2013-06-05 18:35:28 <TheUni> sipa: i presume it's missing updated makefiles then?
1992 2013-06-05 18:35:32 <Blitzboom> the block subsidy with 25 BTC should be enough, and the blocksize isn't an issue yet
1993 2013-06-05 18:36:10 <sipa> TheUni: so it seems
1994 2013-06-05 18:36:23 <sipa> Blitzboom: fees are used a DoS prevention, hardly as income
1995 2013-06-05 18:37:13 <Blitzboom> perhaps because the price rose by x100 and the amount considered spam didn't?
1996 2013-06-05 18:37:27 <Blitzboom> two years ago i would have sent 7 BTC instead of 0.07 BTC
1997 2013-06-05 18:37:45 <sipa> the previous rules were implemented when the exchange rate was $20 or so
1998 2013-06-05 18:38:08 <Blitzboom> i see, i thought they were updated recently?
1999 2013-06-05 18:38:17 <Scrat> sipa: 0.0001 should be enough for next block inclusion right? as 0.8.2 gets more traction
2000 2013-06-05 18:38:27 <sipa> relay rules aren't changed, still 0.0001 BTC/kB
2001 2013-06-05 18:38:32 <Blitzboom> i just find it weird people have to pay 6% to send around $10 over the block chain
2002 2013-06-05 18:39:07 <Scrat> Blitzboom: your math is wrong
2003 2013-06-05 18:39:10 <sipa> 0.0001 means 0.1% to send $10 ...
2004 2013-06-05 18:39:23 <Blitzboom> i thought it's 0.0005
2005 2013-06-05 18:39:34 <sipa> before 0.8.2, yes
2006 2013-06-05 18:40:10 <sipa> but even 0.7 and 0.6 relay at 0.0001
2007 2013-06-05 18:40:16 <sipa> they don't accept it into blocks, though
2008 2013-06-05 18:40:38 <Blitzboom> 0.0001 is 1.2% or so, though much better
2009 2013-06-05 18:41:14 <Blitzboom> nvm, you're right
2010 2013-06-05 18:41:15 <maaku> <sipa> they don't accept it into blocks, though
2011 2013-06-05 18:41:16 <maaku> ?
2012 2013-06-05 18:41:21 <Blitzboom> damn decimals
2013 2013-06-05 18:41:55 random_cat has joined
2014 2013-06-05 18:41:58 <maaku> wouldn't they still be accepted before free transactions, which are still making it in blocks?
2015 2013-06-05 18:42:21 root2_ is now known as root2
2016 2013-06-05 18:42:36 <sipa> maaku: no, they are considered free transactions
2017 2013-06-05 18:42:52 <sipa> so the normal priority rules are used to decide whether they go into blocks, not their fee
2018 2013-06-05 18:42:59 <sipa> (i think)
2019 2013-06-05 18:44:28 <maaku> if I create and popularize a patch that does straight fee-per-kB (no priority considerations), will I be ostracized from #bitcoin-dev? ;)
2020 2013-06-05 18:44:31 <jgarzik> correct
2021 2013-06-05 18:44:41 <jgarzik> maaku, just do that via command line option
2022 2013-06-05 18:44:48 <jgarzik> maaku, make the priority area 0.0 bytes
2023 2013-06-05 18:45:51 <maaku> jgarzik: what I want is: order transactions by fee-per-kB, accept transactions in that order until block is full. absolutely no other considerations. is that possible now by command line?
2024 2013-06-05 18:46:03 <jgarzik> maaku, yes
2025 2013-06-05 18:46:08 <maaku> awesome
2026 2013-06-05 18:46:27 donpdonp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2027 2013-06-05 18:46:52 <jgarzik> maaku, -blockprioritysize=0
2028 2013-06-05 18:54:27 lamdor has left ("Client Exiting")
2029 2013-06-05 18:56:11 mappum has joined
2030 2013-06-05 18:56:43 <michagogo> (or presumably blockprioritysize=0 in bitcoin.conf)
2031 2013-06-05 18:57:48 <jgarzik> indeed
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2049 2013-06-05 19:34:13 <jgarzik> petertodd, Making anyone-can-spend transactions standard would be nice, too
2050 2013-06-05 19:34:23 altgribble has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2051 2013-06-05 19:34:40 <petertodd> jgarzik: yeah, you got code for that yet?
2052 2013-06-05 19:35:16 resinate has joined
2053 2013-06-05 19:35:38 <kfreds> jgarzik: Why would anyone want to do that?
2054 2013-06-05 19:35:41 <jgarzik> petertodd, just wrote https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2738 (OP_RETURN), and was pondering a similar patch to enable anyone-can-spend
2055 2013-06-05 19:36:19 <jgarzik> kfreds, proof of sacrifice and similar experiments. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Fidelity_bonds links to an example. (I presume petertodd wrote that wiki page)
2056 2013-06-05 19:36:34 <petertodd> I did, and I need to update it too.
2057 2013-06-05 19:37:00 <jgarzik> I tend to prefer sacrifice-to-miner, as that benefits a public service
2058 2013-06-05 19:37:12 <jgarzik> but I don't see any reason why we should prohibit anyone-can-spend TXs
2059 2013-06-05 19:37:18 <jgarzik> petertodd, do you?
2060 2013-06-05 19:37:53 <petertodd> jgarzik: There is the potential issue of storms of people trying to spend them, but that's an issue we already have.
2061 2013-06-05 19:38:37 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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2066 2013-06-05 19:39:22 <petertodd> jgarzik: Incidentally, an OP_RETURN with no data attached at all should be allowed as well.
2067 2013-06-05 19:39:37 lkghycfh has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2068 2013-06-05 19:40:10 <petertodd> jgarzik: I'm also still very inclined to say that OP_RETURN should be allowed more than once, but that's a fight...
2069 2013-06-05 19:41:02 Orbixx has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2070 2013-06-05 19:41:04 <maaku> in practice any miner would insert a transaction claming the anyone-can-spend money, right?
2071 2013-06-05 19:41:10 <kfreds> jgarzik: I see, but that seems roughly equivalent to sacrificing it to the miner. And if the miner isn't paying attention then I (wanting the fidelity bond) might as well claim the coins in a transaction that I send out at the same time as the first one, and I will have sacrificed nothing.
2072 2013-06-05 19:41:12 hnz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2073 2013-06-05 19:41:12 <maaku> so you wouldn't see swarms of people claiming because the output wouldn't survive the block it was included in
2074 2013-06-05 19:41:26 <kfreds> Hence, it doesn't prove sacrifice. Am I wrong?
2075 2013-06-05 19:42:09 <jgarzik> maaku, in theory
2076 2013-06-05 19:42:26 <jgarzik> maaku, but existing miners are reluctant to carry custom patches on top of bitcoind
2077 2013-06-05 19:42:42 <jgarzik> (I hope this will change, and I would like to see miners get more active in the policy area)
2078 2013-06-05 19:42:48 <maaku> kfreds: the miners will be paying attention, and even if they didn't there's no reason someone else wouldn't 'double-spend' your 2nd txn
2079 2013-06-05 19:42:59 <jrmithdobbs> also, in theory, doing that may introduce enough latency to the block announce for some of their setups that it actually wont be that common
2080 2013-06-05 19:43:08 altamic has joined
2081 2013-06-05 19:43:10 <maaku> jgarzik: what about an OP_PUSHDEPTH for fidelity bonds?
2082 2013-06-05 19:43:18 altamic has left ()
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2084 2013-06-05 19:43:27 ycfgc has joined
2085 2013-06-05 19:43:29 <jgarzik> maaku, it's nicer to work within existing ops
2086 2013-06-05 19:43:36 WhtwabbIT has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2087 2013-06-05 19:43:40 <jgarzik> maaku, plus, there are implications to making opcodes stateful
2088 2013-06-05 19:43:50 <jgarzik> maaku, i.e. depending on state outside the transaction itself
2089 2013-06-05 19:44:09 <jrmithdobbs> that could cause some nasty regressions in the script handling code
2090 2013-06-05 19:44:12 <jrmithdobbs> very nasty
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2094 2013-06-05 19:44:30 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs, and that's just the tip of the iceberg
2095 2013-06-05 19:44:41 cris has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2096 2013-06-05 19:44:43 <jrmithdobbs> since the whole thing is based on the assumption that that very thing would never be introduced
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2100 2013-06-05 19:45:36 <jrmithdobbs> jgarzik: ya, the possible issue spread like wildfire from there, that's a big paradigm shift of how the script language works, not just a new opcode
2101 2013-06-05 19:45:39 <jrmithdobbs> heh
2102 2013-06-05 19:46:02 <jrmithdobbs> jesus christ, shoot me for using the phrase correctly in a sentence on accident
2103 2013-06-05 19:46:52 altgribble has joined
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2105 2013-06-05 19:48:16 robbak has joined
2106 2013-06-05 19:48:27 <BlueMatt> ;;slap jrmithdobbs
2107 2013-06-05 19:48:29 <altgribble> BlueMatt: Error: This command is not available, as this is an alternate Gribble system. Some authing, rating, order book, and other miscellaneous commands are not available.
2108 2013-06-05 19:48:34 <jgarzik> hrm
2109 2013-06-05 19:48:36 <jgarzik> nLockTime
2110 2013-06-05 19:48:37 <BlueMatt> seriously, not even slap?
2111 2013-06-05 19:48:46 maaku_ has joined
2112 2013-06-05 19:48:49 <jgarzik> I could have sworn nLockTime (!IsFinal) was marked non-standard
2113 2013-06-05 19:48:54 <jgarzik> but I cannot find such code
2114 2013-06-05 19:49:02 * BlueMatt is sure it is
2115 2013-06-05 19:49:09 ycfgc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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2117 2013-06-05 19:49:38 <BlueMatt> if (!IsFinal())
2118 2013-06-05 19:49:38 <BlueMatt> return false;
2119 2013-06-05 19:49:46 <BlueMatt> in CTransaction::IsStandard()
2120 2013-06-05 19:49:58 <jgarzik> yep, just found that. No idea why my eyes missed that.
2121 2013-06-05 19:50:09 <jrmithdobbs> ya, i know they're not standard caus couldn't play with aging a year ago when i was looking at it
2122 2013-06-05 19:50:11 wallet43 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2123 2013-06-05 19:50:12 <jrmithdobbs> ha
2124 2013-06-05 19:50:21 <BlueMatt> testnet
2125 2013-06-05 19:50:36 <dugo> sorry, what's the use case for implementing throwing money on the street ?
2126 2013-06-05 19:50:45 <BlueMatt> magic
2127 2013-06-05 19:50:54 <jgarzik> Magic The Gathering
2128 2013-06-05 19:50:56 <jrmithdobbs> well, yes, couldn't on real network, this was also before any of this worth enough money to care about playing with it ;p
2129 2013-06-05 19:50:59 <BlueMatt> no.
2130 2013-06-05 19:51:00 <BlueMatt> just magic.
2131 2013-06-05 19:51:01 <Luke-Jr> dugo: high-cost antispam?
2132 2013-06-05 19:51:21 gjj_ has joined
2133 2013-06-05 19:51:28 * BlueMatt recent wip todo messages have been quite magic-obsessed...not sure why though
2134 2013-06-05 19:51:33 <BlueMatt> s/todo/commit/
2135 2013-06-05 19:51:57 wallet43 has joined
2136 2013-06-05 19:52:10 <BlueMatt> heh...most recent commit message " THE MAGIC IS BORKEN! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!"
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2157 2013-06-05 19:55:36 <petertodd> kfreds: Absolutely right. The announce-commit sacrifice protocol solves that, by first announcing the a timelocked transaction by including it as data in another transaction, then later anyone can mine it.
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2160 2013-06-05 19:55:37 <petertodd> jgarzik: BTW if you want to allow for announce-commit, the OP_RETURN data needs to be bigger. Although I think sacrficinging to unspendable with an eventual soft-fork is a better solution.
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2162 2013-06-05 19:55:38 <lianj> damn, i kinda missed the discussion. what was the reason behind this OP_RETURN pull request? not whats bad about it but why its a needed feature?
2163 2013-06-05 19:55:38 Squid_ has joined
2164 2013-06-05 19:55:38 <lianj> jgarzik: why not use the payment protocol notes field?
2165 2013-06-05 19:55:38 <petertodd> Basically people can already attach data to transactions by putting that data in unspendable, but not provably so, outputs. We can't stop that. OP_RETURN helps alieviate that problem by giving people a mechanism that does not bloat the UTXO set.
2166 2013-06-05 19:55:38 <lianj> it doesn't bloat the utxo but the blockchain general (which every full node has to process at least once, even though he throws stuff away later)
2167 2013-06-05 19:55:39 <petertodd> Sure, but again, we have no way of stopping it.
2168 2013-06-05 19:55:39 <petertodd> OP_RETURN is a harm reduction technique.
2169 2013-06-05 19:55:50 Scrat has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0)
2170 2013-06-05 19:56:21 <lianj> using the non-standard reply thing it is at least made hard push unrelated data to the chain
2171 2013-06-05 19:56:21 cris` has joined
2172 2013-06-05 19:56:21 <lianj> if this OP_RETURN thing becomes standard i would guess we see much more usage of this for a while
2173 2013-06-05 19:56:21 <petertodd> But that's the thing, it's not hard at all!
2174 2013-06-05 19:56:21 Squid__ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2175 2013-06-05 19:56:21 brocktic1 has joined
2176 2013-06-05 19:56:21 <lianj> are there some stats how many non standard txs we have in the last X blocks on mainnet
2177 2013-06-05 19:56:21 <petertodd> jgarzik: Here's a compromise, one OP_RETURN can have any value you want it too, even zero, but additional ones are subject to the exact same minimum value out rules.
2178 2013-06-05 19:56:21 Squid__ has joined
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2184 2013-06-05 19:56:32 <petertodd> maaku: I like OP_PUSHDEPTH, but I don't think the technical risk is worth it unless sacrifices are used a lot.
2185 2013-06-05 19:56:32 Squid__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2187 2013-06-05 19:56:38 <kfreds> maaku: Undoubtedly, but if your transaction is first, shouldn't the others be ignored? Anyway it's a moot point since the miners will take it.
2188 2013-06-05 19:56:40 92AAASXSB is now known as altgribble
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2192 2013-06-05 19:56:42 <jgarzik> lianj, That ship has sailed. :) Wikileaks cables are permanently bloating our UTXO. Unprunable.
2193 2013-06-05 19:56:54 <petertodd> maaku: I mainly proposed the temporarily unspendable txout mechanism to see if it *could* be implemented in the future, not because I wanted it implemented now.
2194 2013-06-05 19:57:25 crank_ has joined
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2196 2013-06-05 19:57:33 ThomasV has joined
2197 2013-06-05 19:57:47 <jgarzik> petertodd, I guess the OP_RETURN w/ > min_value is a burn-the-money sacrifice?
2198 2013-06-05 19:57:49 RazielZ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2199 2013-06-05 19:58:16 <jrmithdobbs> on a technical level i'm annoyed by the cables thing
2200 2013-06-05 19:58:27 <jrmithdobbs> on a political level i think it's awesome someone burned the coined to put it there.
2201 2013-06-05 19:58:30 <jrmithdobbs> ha
2202 2013-06-05 19:58:37 <jrmithdobbs> s/coined/coins/
2203 2013-06-05 19:58:59 <petertodd> jgarzik: Yeah, only unlocked transactions are non-standard, so using nLockTime is still possible.
2204 2013-06-05 19:59:22 <petertodd> jgarzik: Exactly, where as a single OP_RETURN with 0 BTC can be our standard "add some tiny data to a tx" mechanism.
2205 2013-06-05 19:59:46 Squidicuz has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2206 2013-06-05 19:59:47 <petertodd> jgarzik: A single one is tricky to use though with some SIGHASH stuff, but if we can at least agree on it that's a good start.
2207 2013-06-05 19:59:47 darkee has joined
2208 2013-06-05 19:59:58 crank_ is now known as crank
2209 2013-06-05 20:00:06 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs, the "dumper" spent some $500 to put a bunch of data in the chain
2210 2013-06-05 20:00:15 <petertodd> jrmithdobbs: The people that did it payed about 10x higher fees than they had too.
2211 2013-06-05 20:00:21 <petertodd> jrmithdobbs: Probably delibrately.
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2217 2013-06-05 20:01:29 <jgarzik> petertodd, Mainly want to gauge consensus on it? IMO making something like this standard should be less controversial
2218 2013-06-05 20:01:31 <jrmithdobbs> petertodd: ya i know
2219 2013-06-05 20:01:34 <jgarzik> but maybe I'm wrong
2220 2013-06-05 20:01:48 <jgarzik> petertodd, the current patch largely just codifies what an IRC discussion proposed
2221 2013-06-05 20:02:03 <petertodd> jgarzik: Yeah, it's pretty close to what everone could agree on.
2222 2013-06-05 20:02:14 <petertodd> jgarzik: (though gmaxwell wanted 20 bytes of data max)
2223 2013-06-05 20:02:20 <jgarzik> petertodd, My patch just ignores nValue, FWIW
2224 2013-06-05 20:02:38 <petertodd> jgarzik: Yes, I saw that, good idea.
2225 2013-06-05 20:03:01 Squid__ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2226 2013-06-05 20:03:05 <jgarzik> anyway, food for thought.
2227 2013-06-05 20:03:23 <jgarzik> time to *poof*
2228 2013-06-05 20:03:26 <jrmithdobbs> why 20 byte max?
2229 2013-06-05 20:03:31 <petertodd> jgarzik: I'll look at it more thoroughly later, giving a talk in a few hours.
2230 2013-06-05 20:03:31 * BlueMatt votes for at least 1 satoshi nValue
2231 2013-06-05 20:03:40 <petertodd> BlueMatt: why?
2232 2013-06-05 20:03:42 <lianj> jgarzik: running some stats now on how many nonstandard txs were in the last 1000 blocks
2233 2013-06-05 20:03:50 <lianj> for last 100 it was zero
2234 2013-06-05 20:03:58 <BlueMatt> I know the whole 0-value output thing is cool, but the ability to limit the utxo set is just too appealing
2235 2013-06-05 20:03:59 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs, (32 * 2) + 16
2236 2013-06-05 20:04:06 <jgarzik> jrmithdobbs, 80 bytes
2237 2013-06-05 20:04:14 <jgarzik> " couple hashes, plus some space"
2238 2013-06-05 20:04:16 <jrmithdobbs> oh just a space savings thing
2239 2013-06-05 20:04:21 <lianj> hm wait, my script failed, it wasnt zero
2240 2013-06-05 20:04:23 <BlueMatt> I know, unspendable, but...
2241 2013-06-05 20:04:38 <BlueMatt> anyway, it doesnt matter much in this case
2242 2013-06-05 20:04:38 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, not sure I follow
2243 2013-06-05 20:04:49 <petertodd> BlueMatt: well, the difference between 1 and 0 satoshi's is pretty insignificant...
2244 2013-06-05 20:04:58 <BlueMatt> in value, yes
2245 2013-06-05 20:05:41 <maaku_> BlueMatt: the utxo set still has to track 0-value outputs
2246 2013-06-05 20:05:51 jgarzik has quit (Quit: poof)
2247 2013-06-05 20:06:08 <petertodd> BlueMatt: gmaxwell actually suggested an interesting idea: in the UI, creating a 0-value output could be automagically turned into creating an OP_RETURN
2248 2013-06-05 20:06:20 <BlueMatt> sorry, my point was more general I dont like having 0-values in the utxo set, but in this case it doesnt matter since its pruneable anyway
2249 2013-06-05 20:06:29 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Might help get the people doing manual timestamping to use OP_RETURN
2250 2013-06-05 20:06:51 <BlueMatt> heh, actually do that /always/ not just gui
2251 2013-06-05 20:06:51 <petertodd> ah, yeah, in general it should have been banned from the beginning as a protocol rule
2252 2013-06-05 20:06:55 <BlueMatt> do it in rpc
2253 2013-06-05 20:06:55 crank has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2254 2013-06-05 20:06:56 <maaku_> you can spend a 0-value output
2255 2013-06-05 20:07:19 <petertodd> BlueMatt: It'll confuse the heck out of people some of the time, but that's something blockchain.info can fix
2256 2013-06-05 20:07:44 <BlueMatt> petertodd: if they're trying to bloat the chain with crap, they should get all kinds of confusing and complicated error messages
2257 2013-06-05 20:07:56 Eneerge has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2258 2013-06-05 20:08:19 <petertodd> BlueMatt: lol "ILLEGAL OPERATION! NO WE MEAN LEGALLY ILLEGAL!"
2259 2013-06-05 20:08:25 crank has joined
2260 2013-06-05 20:08:37 <jrmithdobbs> speaking of
2261 2013-06-05 20:08:52 <jrmithdobbs> do you still get that fun boost exception if confdir doesn't exist and you don't have perms to create it?
2262 2013-06-05 20:08:55 <BlueMatt> "This incident will be reported"..."to the FBI"
2263 2013-06-05 20:08:55 <jrmithdobbs> ;p
2264 2013-06-05 20:08:56 <BlueMatt> http://xkcd.com/838/
2265 2013-06-05 20:09:40 wallet43 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2266 2013-06-05 20:09:40 Eneerge has joined
2267 2013-06-05 20:09:49 * Luke-Jr facepalms at 'sudo su' - when will people learn how to do things the Right Way™?
2268 2013-06-05 20:09:55 jaequery has joined
2269 2013-06-05 20:09:56 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: it's fun when you actually email people asking what they were doing after getting those emails
2270 2013-06-05 20:10:08 <BlueMatt> Ive gotten those emails...
2271 2013-06-05 20:10:17 anarchy5 has joined
2272 2013-06-05 20:10:20 <petertodd> incedentally, speaking of bloating the chain: http://www.coinbox.me/
2273 2013-06-05 20:10:25 <BlueMatt> "Why the hell did you try to sudo on the printserver at 4 in the morning???"
2274 2013-06-05 20:10:28 <BlueMatt> - unc cs
2275 2013-06-05 20:10:30 <petertodd> off-chain payment system for micro-bitcoin transactions!
2276 2013-06-05 20:10:38 panzerfaust has joined
2277 2013-06-05 20:10:58 <petertodd> they're aiming it at the tip sites that got blocked by the dust patch
2278 2013-06-05 20:11:01 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: i made of point of sending a "you're doing it wrong" email for every instance of that email that actually ran the command in that comic specifically ;p
2279 2013-06-05 20:11:06 <jrmithdobbs> BlueMatt: at one job
2280 2013-06-05 20:11:30 <jrmithdobbs> because apparently using sudo is hard.
2281 2013-06-05 20:11:45 <BlueMatt> petertodd: TD is implementing a real microtransaction protocol that is actually trustless and all those fun things
2282 2013-06-05 20:12:00 <BlueMatt> jrmithdobbs: heh, nice
2283 2013-06-05 20:12:07 <petertodd> BlueMatt: good, micropayment or arbitrary source-dest?
2284 2013-06-05 20:12:14 <Luke-Jr> jrmithdobbs: ironically, sudo has a -i option just for this use case too
2285 2013-06-05 20:12:18 <BlueMatt> petertodd: hmm?
2286 2013-06-05 20:12:19 <petertodd> BlueMatt: I mean, micro-payment channel
2287 2013-06-05 20:12:34 <BlueMatt> arbitrary source-dest?
2288 2013-06-05 20:12:45 <jrmithdobbs> Luke-Jr: actually sudo su -; and sudo -i; do have slightly different sementics in some situations on some platforms
2289 2013-06-05 20:13:00 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Yeah, the stuff I've heard him talk about only works if you are doing a lot of payments between two parties.
2290 2013-06-05 20:13:01 panzer has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2291 2013-06-05 20:13:02 <jrmithdobbs> Luke-Jr: the people these emails were directed at shouldn't have been using either!
2292 2013-06-05 20:13:22 <Luke-Jr> jrmithdobbs: any that make sense as an excuse to use 'sudo su'? :P
2293 2013-06-05 20:13:25 <BlueMatt> petertodd: Im confused as to what exactly you are contrasting here
2294 2013-06-05 20:13:50 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Compared to a system like EasyWallet, or the SilkRoad, where money can flow through participants arbitrarily.
2295 2013-06-05 20:13:54 <jrmithdobbs> Luke-Jr: i can think of some corner cases but none that don't end in "but if you need to do that you should probably rearchitect the whole thing" ha
2296 2013-06-05 20:14:05 <BlueMatt> petertodd: ahh, no micropayment channels
2297 2013-06-05 20:14:18 buZz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2298 2013-06-05 20:14:24 <petertodd> BlueMatt: oh well, they're still very useful.
2299 2013-06-05 20:14:34 gfinn has joined
2300 2013-06-05 20:14:45 <lianj> jgarzik: 236620-237620 (1k blocks) [949810, 949801, 9] (outputs, standard, nonstandard)
2301 2013-06-05 20:14:55 <BlueMatt> petertodd: doing an arbitrary micropayment channel network with any source/dest is kinda hard to do trustless.....
2302 2013-06-05 20:15:09 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2303 2013-06-05 20:15:09 <lianj> hm, next time i run it i will sum the bytes used by the nonstandard ones too
2304 2013-06-05 20:15:55 <petertodd> BlueMatt: indeed, you have a triangle basically, with the corners being "fully-consensus" "fraud-punishing" and "central authority"
2305 2013-06-05 20:16:16 <jrmithdobbs> Luke-Jr: but then i'm also of the "automate all the things" opinion so utterly baffled when people talk about logging into individual nodes and performing one off commands on them, heh
2306 2013-06-05 20:16:27 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Any payment/value-transfer system will fall into one of those categories to some extent.
2307 2013-06-05 20:16:28 <BlueMatt> petertodd: yea, in other words it requires trust somewhere...
2308 2013-06-05 20:16:57 <lianj> from close to 1M outputs there are 9 outputs that are nonstandard and could put junk data in the chain. somehow doesn't feel like its used much
2309 2013-06-05 20:17:03 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Yes. Bitcoin requires trust in a majority of hashing power, fraud-proof systems punish fraud after the fact, and central authority systems require trust in one authority.
2310 2013-06-05 20:17:15 <lianj> when this OP_RETURN is enabled i bet we see lots of them
2311 2013-06-05 20:17:30 <petertodd> lianj: Good! Better than the lots of stuff we don't know about.
2312 2013-06-05 20:17:44 <lianj> really?
2313 2013-06-05 20:18:13 <petertodd> lianj: People do timestamping now, and we don't have a solid idea how how much.
2314 2013-06-05 20:18:18 <BlueMatt> petertodd: well, I meant "trustless" in the bitcoin sense, doing a micropayment network on top of bitcoin without a central authority is kinda hard to do period
2315 2013-06-05 20:18:29 <BlueMatt> at least making it scale well in a p2p system...
2316 2013-06-05 20:18:37 nomailing has joined
2317 2013-06-05 20:19:05 <jrmithdobbs> lianj: it comes in waves like the wl cable dump
2318 2013-06-05 20:19:10 santoscork has joined
2319 2013-06-05 20:19:23 <jrmithdobbs> it's not a constant ongoing thing really
2320 2013-06-05 20:19:38 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Yeah, fundementally if you don't want trust to be an issue, you either need full consensus, or you need a good way to punish fraud after the fact.
2321 2013-06-05 20:19:49 tyn has joined
2322 2013-06-05 20:19:53 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Trusted hardware is a neat dodge, because it turns one type of trust into another.
2323 2013-06-05 20:19:55 <lianj> but with this OP_RETURN as a standard tx type it will be constant, from people who otherwise wouldn't even do it
2324 2013-06-05 20:20:07 <petertodd> jrmithdobbs: continuous too: https://blockchain.info/address/1MBGavinWuiJCF6thGfEriB2WhDD5nhB2a
2325 2013-06-05 20:20:39 <BlueMatt> wth is the address?
2326 2013-06-05 20:20:50 <BlueMatt> 1MBGavinWuiJCF6thGfEriB2WhDD5nhB2a
2327 2013-06-05 20:20:53 <petertodd> jrmithdobbs: That guy was using my timestamper for months, which doesn't produce unspendable outputs. He said that previously his use was creating unspendable outputs in a dlibrately obsure way.
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2331 2013-06-05 20:21:08 <lianj> why not just remove the is_standard check all together and let the script runner be free again?
2332 2013-06-05 20:21:11 <petertodd> jrmithdobbs: Now he's pissed off at Gavin and is creating unspendable delibrately as a protest.
2333 2013-06-05 20:21:21 <petertodd> lianj: That's risky.
2334 2013-06-05 20:21:23 <jrmithdobbs> petertodd: why
2335 2013-06-05 20:21:45 <jrmithdobbs> wait, this is a random guy from shitcointalk isn't it
2336 2013-06-05 20:21:48 <jrmithdobbs> so that's a dumb question
2337 2013-06-05 20:21:58 <petertodd> jrmithdobbs: Simple, he knows that timestamping is one of those uses of Bitcoin that we can't stop, and makes transaction demand unlimited, and wants to make that clear now.
2338 2013-06-05 20:22:13 <lianj> petertodd: but the isstandard is only about relaying anyway. if a bad script is found, the attacker can still get in into the block chain anyway. same with the OP_DROP or whatever wikileaks uses now
2339 2013-06-05 20:22:23 nikolaj has joined
2340 2013-06-05 20:22:26 <petertodd> jrmithdobbs: I dunno, I've only gotten emails from him. I think he's running some kind of service and is timestamping security logs or something.
2341 2013-06-05 20:22:39 Blackreign has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2342 2013-06-05 20:22:59 <jrmithdobbs> petertodd: but why would you want it unspendable? to ensure it's always in the chain? there's very little value in that (real world, not theorhetical)
2343 2013-06-05 20:23:00 <petertodd> lianj: Sure, but that's a much higher bar than relayable transactions. The wikileaks guy just stuffed their data into standard outputs.
2344 2013-06-05 20:23:40 <petertodd> jrmithdobbs: For timestamping having your timestamp stay in the UTXO set makes everything really convenient.
2345 2013-06-05 20:23:42 <jrmithdobbs> petertodd: most uses of timestamping aren't useful/relavent after a year or so so why permenantly bloat the chain with useless data?
2346 2013-06-05 20:23:57 <nsh> note: there has yet to be a problem solved by trusted hardware which was not unsolved within 18 months
2347 2013-06-05 20:24:03 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: why does he think bloating the blockchain with spam hurts Gavin?
2348 2013-06-05 20:24:14 <nsh> (that i know of)
2349 2013-06-05 20:24:15 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: and even if it does, why does he not care that it hurts all of Bitcoin?
2350 2013-06-05 20:24:17 <lianj> sending it to a miner that accepts nonstandard directly is not that high of a bar. if most of the isstandard is to prevents spam (as in pushed data)
2351 2013-06-05 20:24:33 <jrmithdobbs> Luke-Jr: because typical bitcoin user
2352 2013-06-05 20:24:34 <jrmithdobbs> heh
2353 2013-06-05 20:24:38 <petertodd> jrmithdobbs: I'd say the opposite: timestamping is most useful if you can verify the timestamps years after the fact. Bitcoin is unique in that it enables that - most timestamping products have issues with key revocation.
2354 2013-06-05 20:25:15 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: It's a protest. It's not meant to directly hurt Gavin, just make a clear statement. (at least, that's what I took from him)
2355 2013-06-05 20:25:42 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: tell him to protest on testnet
2356 2013-06-05 20:25:46 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Keep in mind this same person, a few months ago, gave me $150 to turn my timestamper back on because he wanted to avoid harming the network with his timestamps.
2357 2013-06-05 20:25:53 <jrmithdobbs> petertodd: for instance what?
2358 2013-06-05 20:26:29 <jrmithdobbs> petertodd: and "years" is still a short time vs forever
2359 2013-06-05 20:26:56 <lianj> so again, whats the reasoning behind the OP_RETURN pull request? is it just so the wikileaks like usage isn't hidden anymore or is it so you can attach additional data to your data for merchants (what the payment protocol solves already)
2360 2013-06-05 20:27:01 <petertodd> jrmithdobbs: hmm?
2361 2013-06-05 20:27:13 <jrmithdobbs> petertodd: anything past 7 years is pretty much completely useless everywhere in the first world, legally speaking, for instance
2362 2013-06-05 20:27:15 Squid_ has joined
2363 2013-06-05 20:27:31 <petertodd> Again, because will attach data to transactions for a *lot* of reasons, so give them a way to do it that doesn't harm the network as much.
2364 2013-06-05 20:27:33 <Luke-Jr> jrmithdobbs: I have doubts as to how useful blockchain timestamping is legally anyway
2365 2013-06-05 20:27:35 <jrmithdobbs> petertodd: but timestamping with undspendable outputs means that even after 7 years they can't be pruned.
2366 2013-06-05 20:27:44 <jrmithdobbs> Luke-Jr: same but ignoring that for now ;p
2367 2013-06-05 20:27:47 <petertodd> jrmithdobbs: Sure, but that's someone elses problem. :)
2368 2013-06-05 20:27:55 <jrmithdobbs> petertodd: but it's not.
2369 2013-06-05 20:28:14 <petertodd> jrmithdobbs: It's an externeality, no different from any other type of pollution.
2370 2013-06-05 20:29:02 <jrmithdobbs> true, at least it's not like satoshidipshits that cause processing load on the whole damned network in addition i guess
2371 2013-06-05 20:29:24 <jrmithdobbs> i like that name better than dead puppies.
2372 2013-06-05 20:29:27 <Ry4an> I'm coming in late, but couldn't you have each timestamp txn spend the previous one's output? Then they'd be pruneable, no?
2373 2013-06-05 20:29:43 Jackneill has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2374 2013-06-05 20:29:55 <petertodd> Timestamping causes load on the whole system just like anything else, if anything, satoshidice is less harmful because at least it doesn't result in UTXO bloat now that they changed the way they do "you lose" transactions.
2375 2013-06-05 20:30:11 robbak has joined
2376 2013-06-05 20:30:11 <jrmithdobbs> petertodd: oh did they finally change that?
2377 2013-06-05 20:30:17 wallet43 has joined
2378 2013-06-05 20:30:19 <jrmithdobbs> i missed that, been busying actually working recently ;p
2379 2013-06-05 20:30:25 <petertodd> Ry4an: Lots of ways. But it's always easier for the one doing the timestamping if you can just check the UTXO set for your timestamp.
2380 2013-06-05 20:30:51 TD_ has joined
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2384 2013-06-05 20:31:26 <lianj> petertodd: for an initial sync, a small utxo doesn't do you any good, its only so you don't have to store it permanently, but you still have to process/download it once. right?
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2388 2013-06-05 20:32:09 <petertodd> lianj: Eventually we'll likely have miners include the hash of the UTXO set and verify it, so you'll just have to downlaod the UTXO set itself.
2389 2013-06-05 20:32:26 <petertodd> lianj: It's a slightly less trustworthy system, but it's still pretty good.
2390 2013-06-05 20:32:28 altgribble has joined
2391 2013-06-05 20:32:45 16WAAGFNP has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2392 2013-06-05 20:33:04 <lianj> yikes. i agree that this will be the natural progression but makes me a sad panda
2393 2013-06-05 20:33:08 <nsh> Luke-Jr, how do you mean, legally?
2394 2013-06-05 20:33:32 <Luke-Jr> nsh: I have doubts that a judge is going to accept "all these hashes prove I had the data at YYYY-MM-DD"
2395 2013-06-05 20:33:39 <jrmithdobbs> nsh: he means pointing to timestamps in the blockchain in a court for some reason
2396 2013-06-05 20:34:21 <petertodd> lianj: It's a fundemental problem with Bitcoin, and indeed any other global consensus system. Bitcoin "solved" it by putting a strict limit on the total size of that data, and that limit is low enough that decenralization is practical.
2397 2013-06-05 20:34:25 jung has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2398 2013-06-05 20:34:35 <nsh> well, it proves there existed a time period X a string which happens to be the result of a presumably one-way hash-function for a larger piece of data
2399 2013-06-05 20:34:43 <jrmithdobbs> i've not ever heard of anyone using more traditional sig/storage/backup "proofs" successfully in a court either though, so this isn't exactly a bold statement to say how useful the data is legally is questionable
2400 2013-06-05 20:34:47 <jrmithdobbs> because it is
2401 2013-06-05 20:34:47 <jrmithdobbs> quite questionable.
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2404 2013-06-05 20:35:13 <jrmithdobbs> you see, courts don't accept mathematics as fact ;p
2405 2013-06-05 20:35:21 <dugo> Luke-Jr: judge is going to accept expert testimony though
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2407 2013-06-05 20:35:26 <jrmithdobbs> (no matter how much that makes your brain hurt, it's true)
2408 2013-06-05 20:35:27 <nsh> it would be up to the disputant to provide a more plausible explanation than "the data was hashed prior to time period X"
2409 2013-06-05 20:35:27 <petertodd> jrmithdobbs: Depends on the industry. Timestamping is a service with huge demand, but only in specific industries.
2410 2013-06-05 20:35:58 <jrmithdobbs> nsh: ya, and all you have to convince is a judge and at worst 12 idiots that can't click the big blue e.
2411 2013-06-05 20:36:06 <jrmithdobbs> nsh: this is not as hard to talk your way out of as you think.
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2413 2013-06-05 20:36:16 <nsh> this is a stupidity issue, not a legal or technological issue
2414 2013-06-05 20:36:24 <nsh> "against stupidity, the gods themselves labour in vain..."
2415 2013-06-05 20:36:30 <jrmithdobbs> nsh: weev is in jail for 5 years for a curl script
2416 2013-06-05 20:36:37 * nsh nods, sighs
2417 2013-06-05 20:36:52 <Luke-Jr> dugo: and the expert will have to admit "well, yes, someone who had enough resources could potentially fake this…"
2418 2013-06-05 20:36:57 <petertodd> You guys need to realize that the service that timestamping companies sell isn't really timestamping, it's legal services. The most important thing they do is provide lawyers and experts to explain why your timestamps are valid to a judge.
2419 2013-06-05 20:36:59 <jrmithdobbs> nsh: so assuming anything but stupidity from courts re: technical matters at this point?: naivety.
2420 2013-06-05 20:37:35 <petertodd> For a smart company Bitcoin is a brilliant addition to existing timestamping systems because it's a totally independent check on your accuracy.
2421 2013-06-05 20:37:58 <Luke-Jr> as an addition, I guess it makes sense
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2423 2013-06-05 20:38:27 <jchp_> the best way to mitigate timestamping spam is to create a free timestamping service that uses a hash tree and does 1-of-2 multisig with the second sig being the hash root. kill all the competition and nip it in the bud forever
2424 2013-06-05 20:38:45 <ProfMac> When a block is mined, how do we know who owns the outputs from transaction 0?
2425 2013-06-05 20:38:56 <petertodd> The other thing, is that for a service that isn't legal, *if* you understand exactly what it's doing for you, timestamping is a very useful way to check that things like log files haven't been tampered with.
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2430 2013-06-05 20:40:23 <petertodd> jchp_: That's exactly what I was going to do with OpenTimestamps before I got distracted by scalability...
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2433 2013-06-05 20:40:55 <jchp> scalability?
2434 2013-06-05 20:41:32 <petertodd> jchp: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZp7UGgBR0I
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2438 2013-06-05 20:42:28 <petertodd> jchp: But I gotta go, giving a talk on that subject in a few hours.
2439 2013-06-05 20:42:45 <petertodd> jchp: Toronto Bitcoin Meetup if you happen to be around :P
2440 2013-06-05 20:42:47 <jchp> oh i was thinking more of a centralized webservice that was free and collected all the hashes into a single merkle root every let say 4 hours
2441 2013-06-05 20:43:00 altgribble has joined
2442 2013-06-05 20:43:02 <jchp> bye have fun
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2444 2013-06-05 20:43:27 <petertodd> jchp: look at this: https://github.com/opentimestamps I've already made that service
2445 2013-06-05 20:43:30 <petertodd> later
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2447 2013-06-05 20:43:35 <jchp> oh cool will do
2448 2013-06-05 20:45:16 <Blitzboom> does a transaction get more priority if it gets older?
2449 2013-06-05 20:45:33 <Blitzboom> i have no clue how the policies of the pools actually work
2450 2013-06-05 20:46:46 <jchp> Blitzboom: the more confirmations the higher the priority (roughly) https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees#Technical_info
2451 2013-06-05 20:47:01 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2651/commits <---- the second commit should be gotten rid of with a rebase right?
2452 2013-06-05 20:47:04 <Blitzboom> an unconfirmed one i mean
2453 2013-06-05 20:47:18 <Blitzboom> oh nvm
2454 2013-06-05 20:47:19 <jchp> Blitzboom: i meant confirmations on the inputs
2455 2013-06-05 20:47:23 <Blitzboom> right
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2457 2013-06-05 20:47:34 <jchp> (should've clarified)
2458 2013-06-05 20:47:34 <Blitzboom> so i suppose that's a yes
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2460 2013-06-05 20:48:31 <jchp> in general yes, some pools operate using other calculations so it's not a 1-to-1 mapping but in general yeah
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2467 2013-06-05 20:50:58 <Blitzboom> thanks, let's see how long this will take
2468 2013-06-05 20:52:33 <jchp> Blitzboom: blockchain.info now shows your general priority position in the transaction pool and a wild-ass guess on confirmation time
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2470 2013-06-05 20:53:10 <Blitzboom> jchp: unfortunately, when it gets close, the pools just don't include it even if they only include ~50 transactions
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2472 2013-06-05 20:53:19 <Blitzboom> https://blockchain.info/tx/7d3ca4c5da90ec7c16303bdcfadfeb1f885583eea1e10b6479ca5abacfa3fe58
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2474 2013-06-05 20:55:20 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2651/commits <--- is it appropriate to rebase the patch on behalf of the author?
2475 2013-06-05 20:55:37 <Scrat> Blitzboom: you're unlucky
2476 2013-06-05 20:55:39 <jchp> Blitzboom: yeah you'll probably have to wait a while on that one, if you really want it to confirm faster, you can spend the unconfirmed change output and include a fee, several pools will include the dependent blocks
2477 2013-06-05 20:55:59 <jchp> dependent tx
2478 2013-06-05 20:56:00 <Scrat> he made it a few hours ago, should have been conf'd
2479 2013-06-05 20:56:29 <Blitzboom> i sent that one from mtgox
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2482 2013-06-05 20:56:41 <Scrat> all it takes is a miner with more lax rules
2483 2013-06-05 20:57:48 <wallet43> can we change the algorithm that there will be 22 Million? i think 22 is better than 21
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2488 2013-06-05 20:59:49 <Blitzboom> Scrat: OR enough confirmations for the inputs to pass to make the priority of my transaction high enough as i understand
2489 2013-06-05 21:00:10 <Scrat> that will take days
2490 2013-06-05 21:00:19 <Blitzboom> hmm
2491 2013-06-05 21:01:24 <Blitzboom> well, this is all rather new to me. i'm still used to the 2011-2012 behaviour where noone cared
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2493 2013-06-05 21:02:23 <Blitzboom> a priority calculator would be cool
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2499 2013-06-05 21:09:57 <Blitzboom> woo, got a confirmation
2500 2013-06-05 21:10:22 <Blitzboom> thanks 87.106.47.100
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2502 2013-06-05 21:10:37 <Scrat> told you
2503 2013-06-05 21:10:52 <Blitzboom> it's weird, only 205 tx in that block
2504 2013-06-05 21:10:59 <Blitzboom> not going to complain
2505 2013-06-05 21:12:17 <michagogo> Blitzboom: That may not be the miner
2506 2013-06-05 21:12:31 <michagogo> People make that mistake all the time
2507 2013-06-05 21:12:43 <Blitzboom> what else?
2508 2013-06-05 21:13:04 <Blitzboom> whoever sent it to blockchain.info's node?
2509 2013-06-05 21:13:09 <Scrat> yes
2510 2013-06-05 21:13:13 <Blitzboom> kk
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2512 2013-06-05 21:13:56 <Scrat> b.i should just drop the ip lookup and whois
2513 2013-06-05 21:14:11 <Scrat> and add a big fat warning that this is not the originating ip
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2515 2013-06-05 21:14:30 <Blitzboom> are you the admin of blockchain?
2516 2013-06-05 21:14:43 <Scrat> not
2517 2013-06-05 21:16:04 <kfreds> Blitzboom: I am the administrator of the blockchain. I keep it on a server in my basement.
2518 2013-06-05 21:16:05 <rumpler> The tx's that make it into a block are completely at the discretion of the miner. If he wanted to, you could mine just one tx into his block.
2519 2013-06-05 21:16:19 <Blitzboom> kfreds: i was talking about blockchain.info
2520 2013-06-05 21:16:38 <Scrat> Blitzboom: b.i = blockchain.info
2521 2013-06-05 21:16:42 <Blitzboom> rumpler: yeah, i realize that
2522 2013-06-05 21:16:47 <Scrat> we don't call it "blockchain" around here :p
2523 2013-06-05 21:17:00 <Blitzboom> what i wonder is whether the policies of the biggest pools are publicly known
2524 2013-06-05 21:18:44 <jchp> Blitzboom: /dev/random
2525 2013-06-05 21:19:22 <fronti> jchp: at which offset? :)
2526 2013-06-05 21:20:24 <jchp> whatever maximizes rage and frustration
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2533 2013-06-05 21:22:03 <jchp> seriously though, i assume there's an incentive against collectively showing everyone the pool tx policies as it encourages gaming the system and minimizing fees
2534 2013-06-05 21:22:52 <dugo> similarities w/ usenet are eery sometimes
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2538 2013-06-05 21:25:24 <dugo> cleanfeed configs were rarely public
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2543 2013-06-05 21:27:20 <dugo> thinking of it, would rather see a cleanfeed style hook in bitcoind than it deciding what's dust and what not
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2556 2013-06-05 21:38:23 <melvin> a nugget from satoshi
2557 2013-06-05 21:38:26 <melvin> 'As things have evolved, the number of people who need to run full nodes is less than I originally imagined. The network would be fine with a small number of nodes if processing load becomes heavy.'
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2619 2013-06-05 22:35:15 <melvin> is anyone able to summarize the debate about 'dust' in the uxto in 1-2 sentences?
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2626 2013-06-05 22:39:56 <Luke-Jr> melvin: there is no debate.
2627 2013-06-05 22:40:15 <Luke-Jr> just a bunch of trolls making a fit by lying about minor changes
2628 2013-06-05 22:40:59 <PRab> Luke-Jr: I think thats an oversimplification (even though I generally agree with limiting dust)
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2630 2013-06-05 22:42:42 <PRab> melvin: Basically dust allows the people to more easily use the blockchain for non-monetary transactions. Unfortunately, every full node needs to pay the price (diskspace/bandwidth) of their transactions.
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2632 2013-06-05 22:43:20 <melvin> PRab: thanks that's a nice summary
2633 2013-06-05 22:44:30 <melvin> PRab: so due to this overhead, it's thought of as kind of spammy, but one mans spam is another mans gold, ie spam is subjective, is that about right?
2634 2013-06-05 22:45:01 <Luke-Jr> melvin: if it's gold, they can afford to put a penny on it
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2636 2013-06-05 22:46:06 <melvin> so the conversation is about removing dust from the uxto, rather than, the block chain itself, which I guess is pretty much immutable by design?
2637 2013-06-05 22:46:17 <Luke-Jr> melvin: the bitcoin network has agreed to store data for bitcoin/financial transactions, NOT to store random data some spammer wants stored
2638 2013-06-05 22:46:19 <PRab> melvin: Precisely, there is this concept of colored coins that allows a satoshi to represent something more valuable. Only people that are "in on the" game know what the more valuable thing is and costs.
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2641 2013-06-05 22:46:29 <Luke-Jr> melvin: not even the UTXO
2642 2013-06-05 22:46:47 <Luke-Jr> melvin: it just means if someone sends you a spammy transaction, you won't send it to your own peers
2643 2013-06-05 22:47:02 <Luke-Jr> which is something Bitcoin-Qt has always done, just allowed overriding it with fees
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2645 2013-06-05 22:47:36 <PRab> To Luke-Jr's point, if the colored coin represents something that is $100, it makes sense that it takes $.01 for the whole world to store the fact that you own it.
2646 2013-06-05 22:48:01 <melvin> ok this makes sense thanks :)
2647 2013-06-05 22:48:31 <Luke-Jr> (and you keep the $0.01 too!)
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2653 2013-06-05 22:51:26 <melvin> so what about 'unspendable' outputs?
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2655 2013-06-05 22:52:18 <melvin> are they unspendable because the key cannot be known, or because the balance is too low to make it practical to spend? what happens to these?
2656 2013-06-05 22:52:46 <PRab> melvin: There are 2 definitions of 'unspendable'. 1. The private key is not known. 2. It costs more in tx fees than the amount you are sending.
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2658 2013-06-05 22:53:45 <PRab> melvin: The problem with 1 is that it bloats the blockchain and can never be prunned and the problem with 2 is that you can't tell it apart from 1.
2659 2013-06-05 22:54:41 <dugo> if you know the private key can not be know it can be pruned .. no?
2660 2013-06-05 22:54:54 <rumpler> How can it be known that the private key is unknown? Is it because the address does not resolve to a pubkey?
2661 2013-06-05 22:57:00 <PRab> dugo: I loose my wallet because my HD crashes or something. That private key is no longer known, but the rest of the world doesn't know that.
2662 2013-06-05 22:57:25 <dugo> as for 2. what if you try to run a daily clearing service, where all balances vis-a-vis the clearing house are settled once a day, you would want to be able to settle to the satoshi (and pay for the tx of course)
2663 2013-06-05 22:57:37 <rumpler> PRab: But they how does b.i. know that an output is unspendable?
2664 2013-06-05 22:58:14 <PRab> rumpler: Example?
2665 2013-06-05 22:58:45 <dugo> the bookkeepers don't give a shit about profit or loss, but all hell breaks loose if there is a rounding difference
2666 2013-06-05 22:59:21 <rumpler> Whoops, nevermind. I thought that "unspendable outputs" was a menu option in blockchain.info, and was trying ot see how 1) could possibly be detected/listed, but it's not a real thing.
2667 2013-06-05 22:59:56 <dugo> would there be a way to allow a "dust" out if, bottom line, the net amount of dust is reduced?
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2669 2013-06-05 23:01:03 <dugo> too many loopholes for abuse probably :(
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2671 2013-06-05 23:03:03 <dugo> Luke-Jr: not trying to troll .. having a minimum transaction amount larger than the precision of a currency is a bitch to deal with .. it is only done at PoS w/ cash ..
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2673 2013-06-05 23:03:41 <Luke-Jr> dugo: it's only a problem for spam
2674 2013-06-05 23:04:44 <Luke-Jr> dugo: nobody wants dust
2675 2013-06-05 23:04:55 <Luke-Jr> nobody rational*
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2677 2013-06-05 23:07:20 <melvin> PRab: a couple of comments 1) I could easily generate a function to produce public keys that are impractical to find a private key for 2) given the possibility of coloured coins, a few satoshis could be worth much more than the face value, so surely they should not be pruned?
2678 2013-06-05 23:08:00 <melvin> re (1) for example just take an existing address and change one character, you'll never find the private key for that
2679 2013-06-05 23:08:01 <midnightmagic> I wonder what it would take to prove that a coin is in fact spendable before allowing a tx into the memorypool.
2680 2013-06-05 23:08:16 <PRab> melvin: 1. Prove to me that you don't have the private key.
2681 2013-06-05 23:09:00 <rumpler> melvin: re re (1), you can't just change a single character in an address, there are checksums.
2682 2013-06-05 23:09:07 <PRab> melvin: 2. Thats exactly the point. Even if they were not colored coins they can't be pruned. They just stay there bloating the blockchain.
2683 2013-06-05 23:09:16 <melvin> PRab: you cant *prove* it but you could probably prove it's as hard to reverse as ECDSA, note you'd need to change the checksum too of course
2684 2013-06-05 23:09:18 resinate has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2685 2013-06-05 23:09:39 <Luke-Jr> rumpler: addresses aren't used in bitcoin-the-protocol
2686 2013-06-05 23:10:01 <rumpler> ahh, just the pub/privkeys, then
2687 2013-06-05 23:10:16 <Luke-Jr> rumpler: in this case, just the hash of the public key
2688 2013-06-05 23:10:20 <Luke-Jr> and hashes can be anything
2689 2013-06-05 23:10:34 <PRab> melvin: If you can find that proof, I would be very interested.
2690 2013-06-05 23:10:55 <melvin> PRab: I could probably do it, but it's pretty much common sense, based on a random hash function
2691 2013-06-05 23:11:15 <melvin> consider the distribution of addresses, it's a similar problem to the birthday attack
2692 2013-06-05 23:11:22 <midnightmagic> all tx would have to be dual-party transactions and the receiver's signature would be required as the lock to enable a tx to be mined, which would mean p2sh would have to be revealed and pseudo-anaonymity decreases.
2693 2013-06-05 23:12:02 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: that might not be a bad idea on the p2p level
2694 2013-06-05 23:12:03 <PRab> melvin: Not at all. That is implying the reversibility of the hash function. If you can show that a hash is unobtainable, you just created a significant weakness in the hash itself.
2695 2013-06-05 23:12:05 <midnightmagic> i wonder why satoshi didn't do it that way from the start.
2696 2013-06-05 23:12:08 TD_ has quit (Quit: TD_)
2697 2013-06-05 23:12:23 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: miners could opt to not mine transactions until there's a known signautre..
2698 2013-06-05 23:12:27 <melvin> given X randon numbers over Nbits, what's the probability that the average distance between 2 numbers is > M
2699 2013-06-05 23:12:39 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: It would eliminate all spam instantly, but I don't grok the cost of it.
2700 2013-06-05 23:12:58 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: the signing wouldn't need to affect the blockchain itself
2701 2013-06-05 23:13:07 <midnightmagic> hrm.
2702 2013-06-05 23:13:12 <Luke-Jr> so the net cost is a bit more bandwidth, plus you have to be online to receive
2703 2013-06-05 23:13:35 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: same timeouts then for retransmit until the tx is mined..
2704 2013-06-05 23:13:39 <midnightmagic> is it still 24 hours?
2705 2013-06-05 23:13:56 <melvin> let's say there are 2^160 random addresses, the problem what you are trying to do is generate a collision
2706 2013-06-05 23:14:03 <rumpler> Being online to recieve would be a pretty big dealbreaker for a lot of people... Cold storage would be much more difficult
2707 2013-06-05 23:14:48 <melvin> twiddling a single character from a single address, produces a known finite and SMALL number of possibilities
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2709 2013-06-05 23:15:39 <melvin> it's like a few 1000, which is nothing compared to 2^160
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2711 2013-06-05 23:16:05 <PRab> melvin: I see where you are coming from, but it feels like there would be a non-obvious attack. Also, the first address would have to already have been spent from to prove the private key is/was known.
2712 2013-06-05 23:17:03 <melvin> PRab: sure ... if you're really worried about collisions you can use do it other ways, e.g. just take a specific range on numbers
2713 2013-06-05 23:17:22 <melvin> the chances of one of those being a KNOWN private key are impractical
2714 2013-06-05 23:18:01 <melvin> e.g. take the sha256 of the first billion integers, and add the prefix and checksum
2715 2013-06-05 23:18:01 <PRab> I'm almost convinced, but it just makes me feel... dirty for some reason.
2716 2013-06-05 23:18:18 <midnightmagic> .. in the distant future, satoshis could be worth large amounts of money. why the heck would we want to prune actual satoshis
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2718 2013-06-05 23:19:27 <melvin> midnightmagic: in the current future satoshis can be worth large amounts of money :)
2719 2013-06-05 23:19:28 <CodeShark> if satoshis end up being worth a lot of money bitcoin loses one of the critical features of a good currency - divisibility
2720 2013-06-05 23:19:49 <rumpler> By that point, we will further divide it.
2721 2013-06-05 23:19:50 <PRab> midnightmagic: If you can prove that the satoshis can't be spent, then you could prune them.
2722 2013-06-05 23:19:57 <rumpler> Within the protocol, it's infinitely divisible
2723 2013-06-05 23:20:03 <CodeShark> not right now
2724 2013-06-05 23:20:38 <rumpler> Yeah, but a lot of things are hard-coded in the client right now, those will ll slowly melt away as bitcoin is further developed
2725 2013-06-05 23:20:40 <CodeShark> right now within the protocol it is exactly the smallest possible unit representable by a uint64
2726 2013-06-05 23:20:45 <melvin> PRab: consider this, if I had a vanity address of something like 111111111111111111111111 ... it would have taken longer than the lifetime of the species to generate
2727 2013-06-05 23:20:50 <melvin> so it can be pruned
2728 2013-06-05 23:21:06 <dugo> Luke-Jr: ever had to deal with operations control people doing reconciliations and those higher up in finacial accounting? they process billions in a heartbeat and spend most of theyr days bitching about tiny differences, these guys need their dust to make their recon sheets empty
2729 2013-06-05 23:21:19 <dugo> Luke-Jr: and they don't mind paying the tx fees for it
2730 2013-06-05 23:21:34 <Luke-Jr> dugo: the recipients do
2731 2013-06-05 23:21:42 <melvin> so you dont need a flag for unspent tx, you just need a function to see it's impractical to reverse.
2732 2013-06-05 23:21:58 <dugo> Luke-Jr: these kind of people will be on the receiving end
2733 2013-06-05 23:22:04 <PRab> melvin: Now generalize that to a function that will let you come up with an (almost) infinite series of unspendable addresses.
2734 2013-06-05 23:22:06 <Luke-Jr> dugo: the RECEIVER is better off writing the dust off, than paying a fee for it
2735 2013-06-05 23:22:29 zylche_ has joined
2736 2013-06-05 23:22:41 <melvin> PRab: lol but that would take infinite amount of time, so you're safe :)
2737 2013-06-05 23:22:50 <PRab> melvin: (BTW, I agree that that 1 address probably can't be spent and could be safely pruned)
2738 2013-06-05 23:23:19 <dugo> Luke-Jr: receivers don't pay the tx fees in btc
2739 2013-06-05 23:23:33 <Luke-Jr> dugo: they do when they want to spend the coins
2740 2013-06-05 23:23:44 <CodeShark> the cost of keeping an output in the UTXO should depend on its size in kb and should be charged each block
2741 2013-06-05 23:23:51 <PRab> melvin: I don't need the entire series, just the formula. The armory has one for spendable addresses. I just want to see the reverse of that.
2742 2013-06-05 23:24:04 roconnor_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2743 2013-06-05 23:24:05 <CodeShark> the miner of the block should get to keep a certain amount per UTXO at the time the block is created
2744 2013-06-05 23:24:07 <melvin> PRab: it's a bit like fractions and irrational numbers, the irrational numbers are more numerous and very long, fractions are generally man made, and less numerous, as you approach infinity the two become a grey area
2745 2013-06-05 23:24:29 <CodeShark> once the value of the output is no greater than the amount taken, it gets pruned
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2748 2013-06-05 23:25:14 <PRab> CodeShark: I think there was an alt-coin that implemented something like that.
2749 2013-06-05 23:25:18 <midnightmagic> PRab: It is impossible to prove that a satoshi truly can't be spent, unless there is a script-based payout which literally is impossible to satisfy.
2750 2013-06-05 23:25:23 <midnightmagic> 0 == 1 or something.
2751 2013-06-05 23:25:36 <CodeShark> if people pay rent for UTXOs, it 1) reduces the incentive to produce inefficient UTXO sets, 2) it gives incentive to miners to compute UTXO set hashes as part of the mining process
2752 2013-06-05 23:25:37 <midnightmagic> (and we know about the script)
2753 2013-06-05 23:25:49 resinate has joined
2754 2013-06-05 23:25:51 <PRab> midnightmagic: That's exactly my point.
2755 2013-06-05 23:25:52 <midnightmagic> good heavens, renting utxo space. :-(
2756 2013-06-05 23:26:13 <CodeShark> renting UTXO space seems to me to be the logical solution to UTXO bloat :)
2757 2013-06-05 23:26:15 zylche__ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2758 2013-06-05 23:26:55 <midnightmagic> PRab: Is melvin trying to describe unlikely-to-be-real payout addresses based on the likelihood of them having private keys?
2759 2013-06-05 23:27:41 K1773R has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
2760 2013-06-05 23:27:47 <CodeShark> PRab: freicoin has experimented with demurrage - this isn't demurrage. this is renting UTXO space
2761 2013-06-05 23:27:48 <PRab> midnightmagic: I believe so. The topic started with pruning address that still have balances.
2762 2013-06-05 23:27:54 <melvin> PRab: I'd be willing to bet that there are no 2 bitcoin addresses where every character except the first is identical (excluding checksum + network address), and nor would it be practical to generate two via a birthday attack
2763 2013-06-05 23:28:16 <CodeShark> if you keep a bunch of coins in a single, tiny output, you pay very little rent
2764 2013-06-05 23:28:38 nimdAHK has joined
2765 2013-06-05 23:28:59 <PRab> CodeShark: Ah, I see the difference. Pay for space, not value.
2766 2013-06-05 23:29:38 <melvin> PRab: the corollory to that is that if you see a verified transaction signature, then you can easily generate 57 more bitcoin addresses that a provably unspendable
2767 2013-06-05 23:30:00 <melvin> 57 = base58 - 1
2768 2013-06-05 23:30:10 <PRab> CodeShark: I like the idea (a lot), but that wouldn't be bitcoin anymore.
2769 2013-06-05 23:30:29 <midnightmagic> PRab: Well. A human can tell whether it's Kaminsky's spam or the hidden wiki. Maybe we can just manually prune those. :)
2770 2013-06-05 23:30:49 <melvin> suggestion might be to take the genesis transaction and use that address as the seed for unspendable tx
2771 2013-06-05 23:31:14 <melvin> midnightmagic: kaminsky spammed the block chain?
2772 2013-06-05 23:31:31 <PRab> melvin: Ok, so say that formula works. Now you can prune those addresses even if they have balances. What about next un-spendable that it doesn't match.
2773 2013-06-05 23:32:10 <melvin> PRab: do you have an example?
2774 2013-06-05 23:32:22 <PRab> midnightmagic: Manual would be fine with me. The problem is if you get any wrong, you would need to re-download the entire blockchain.
2775 2013-06-05 23:32:42 <melvin> PRab: so I mean you can determine *some* of the time that an address is unspendable, but not ALL of the time
2776 2013-06-05 23:33:18 <melvin> however if it were a social convention to send to a known unspendable address, they could probably be safely pruned
2777 2013-06-05 23:33:23 <melvin> you'd only need 1 right?
2778 2013-06-05 23:33:35 <PRab> melvin: Of? My point is that you could probably find some addresses that are prunable even though they have balances, but you won't find them all.
2779 2013-06-05 23:33:36 catcow has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2780 2013-06-05 23:33:51 milone has joined
2781 2013-06-05 23:33:56 <PRab> Sounds like we are on the same page.
2782 2013-06-05 23:34:14 Blitzboom has joined
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2785 2013-06-05 23:34:16 <melvin> PRab: yes correct, actually I think there's some numbers that CANNOT be used as seeds for a pub key in ECDSA, so they could be used as unspendable flags perhaps
2786 2013-06-05 23:34:58 joeykrim__ is now known as joeykrim
2787 2013-06-05 23:35:01 <PRab> melvin: And pruning as many of these suspect addresses as possible would probably be a good thing (once pruning is implemented).
2788 2013-06-05 23:35:13 <melvin> PRab: Nearly every 256-bit number is a valid private key. Specifically, any 256-bit number between 0x1 and 0xFFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFE BAAE DCE6 AF48 A03B BFD2 5E8C D036 4141 is a valid private key.
2789 2013-06-05 23:35:36 <melvin> so FFFF... would be unspendable
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2791 2013-06-05 23:36:18 <melvin> PRab: what exactly does pruning mean tho? removing from the block chain, or removing from UXTO?
2792 2013-06-05 23:36:35 <CodeShark> you can't remove from block chain as things stand right now
2793 2013-06-05 23:36:44 <CodeShark> block hashes are permanent
2794 2013-06-05 23:36:54 <melvin> CodeShark: that's probably a good design feature imho
2795 2013-06-05 23:36:56 <PRab> melvin: Both, your local copy of the block chain (once implemented) and the UXTO.
2796 2013-06-05 23:37:26 <melvin> the block chain can have unexpected reuse
2797 2013-06-05 23:37:31 <melvin> e.g. coloured coins
2798 2013-06-05 23:37:38 <melvin> or timestamping
2799 2013-06-05 23:37:48 <melvin> actually i can send currencies OTHER than BTC to an address
2800 2013-06-05 23:37:50 <CodeShark> if blocks contained a UTXO set hash and people used the UTXO to sync rather than blocks (only using block headers to connect to genesis block), sync time would be considerably shorter :)
2801 2013-06-05 23:38:19 <PRab> melvin: If I don't care about those other uses then I can throw away the data. If I do, I would use a different, smarter client.
2802 2013-06-05 23:38:45 <melvin> PRab: so yes, a bit like electrum?
2803 2013-06-05 23:38:57 <melvin> however the underlying data structure remains intact
2804 2013-06-05 23:39:03 <melvin> only the client changes
2805 2013-06-05 23:39:03 <PRab> CodeShark: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=88208.0
2806 2013-06-05 23:39:16 da2ce7 has quit (2!~kvirc@opentransactions/dev/da2ce7|Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2807 2013-06-05 23:39:36 <CodeShark> PRab: indeed - I've spoken to etotheipi about it. one of the biggest complaints was the burden on miners - to which I say, let miners charge rent for UTXO space :)
2808 2013-06-05 23:39:46 <CodeShark> it's win-win :)
2809 2013-06-05 23:40:24 <melvin> do miners need to run a full node?
2810 2013-06-05 23:40:29 <CodeShark> yes
2811 2013-06-05 23:40:36 <PRab> CodeShark: That doesn't burden the miners too much. It is opt in.
2812 2013-06-05 23:40:59 <melvin> CodeShark: even if they trust the checkpoints?
2813 2013-06-05 23:41:02 <PRab> melvin: It needs to be full, but it can prune. (I think, correct me if I'm wrong).
2814 2013-06-05 23:41:14 <midnightmagic> PRab: Nah, just the parts one is missing and screwed up with, I figure.
2815 2013-06-05 23:41:19 <CodeShark> it's opt in if it's done via merged mining - I'd prefer to see UTXO hashes become a standard feature of block headers
2816 2013-06-05 23:41:41 <midnightmagic> melvin: Yes, he put ascii art in it and then crowed about how we have to lug around his grafitti until the end of time, during a talk he did at 28c3
2817 2013-06-05 23:41:59 <midnightmagic> melvin: It was pretty obnoxious.
2818 2013-06-05 23:42:41 <melvin> midnightmagic: need a celebrity death match between satoshi and kaminsky :)
2819 2013-06-05 23:43:32 beethoven8201 has quit (Quit: leaving)
2820 2013-06-05 23:43:49 <midnightmagic> bah, one of them is outclassed.
2821 2013-06-05 23:43:51 <dugo> $ egrep "Hash160|000000000000000000000000000000000000000" balances
2822 2013-06-05 23:44:02 <dugo> Balance Hash160 Base58 nbIn lastTimeIn nbOut lastTimeOut
2823 2013-06-05 23:44:05 <dugo> 2.93992232 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000 1111111111111111111114oLvT2 52 Fri Apr 12 20:49:10 2013 1 Mon Jul 11 00:59:27 2011
2824 2013-06-05 23:44:08 <dugo> 0.01000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000001 11111111111111111111BZbvjr 1 Wed Apr 27 01:57:55 2011 1 Mon Jul 11 00:59:27 2011
2825 2013-06-05 23:44:39 <melvin> that's a lot of 0's!
2826 2013-06-05 23:45:10 <dugo> 01:04 < melvin> PRab: I'd be willing to bet that there are no 2 bitcoin addresses where every character except the first is identical (excluding checksum + network address), and nor would it be practical to generate two via a birthday attack
2827 2013-06-05 23:45:23 <CodeShark> melvin: I suppose miners would not really need to maintain a full block chain history
2828 2013-06-05 23:45:35 <CodeShark> it would suffice to just retain the present state of the network
2829 2013-06-05 23:46:04 <melvin> dugo: yes but at least one of those will have no known private key
2830 2013-06-05 23:46:05 <CodeShark> that's the case today as well
2831 2013-06-05 23:46:12 <CodeShark> re: miners
2832 2013-06-05 23:46:51 <CodeShark> actually, right now miners don't even need to do that
2833 2013-06-05 23:47:03 <CodeShark> they can still be rewarded only knowing the previous block hash
2834 2013-06-05 23:47:10 <melvin> state of the network is the "chain state" right?
2835 2013-06-05 23:47:31 <PRab> CodeShark: Good point, they don't actually have to include transactions.
2836 2013-06-05 23:47:45 <CodeShark> requiring the chain state hash in the block would also discourage empty block miners
2837 2013-06-05 23:48:04 <CodeShark> chain state = UTXO set
2838 2013-06-05 23:48:06 <melvin> surely they need to know if the transaction is legal tho, both the signature, and that you are not spending more than you have?
2839 2013-06-05 23:48:25 <CodeShark> melvin: all that info is in the UTXO set
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2842 2013-06-05 23:49:40 <melvin> CodeShark: but not every member of the UXTO is equally likely to be used, e.g. the older ones are intuitively less likely to be spent, as are dust, cant they move to a model where they have the most probabilistic members of the UXTO stored, a few blocks, and have lookup on demand of new addresses?
2843 2013-06-05 23:50:06 <PRab> Where does bitcoin-qt put its log file on windows?
2844 2013-06-05 23:50:10 <melvin> I would guess that 20% of the UXTO make up 80% of transactions
2845 2013-06-05 23:50:24 <CodeShark> melvin: there could be such optimizations for storage...but you still need to be able to deal with unlikely scenarios
2846 2013-06-05 23:50:31 <CodeShark> or else your node dies in such circumstances
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2848 2013-06-05 23:51:15 jankO- has left ()
2849 2013-06-05 23:51:16 <PRab> nm, found it.
2850 2013-06-05 23:51:22 <melvin> CodeShark: you can do it in such a way that you probabilistically cover most of these unlikely scenarios, then when one occurs you rebalance
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2852 2013-06-05 23:51:32 <phantomcircuit> melvin, in it's current state the UXTO is something like 6 million outputs
2853 2013-06-05 23:51:32 <dugo> melvin: hmmm .. can't find an example in my collection of chbs anagrams, but that's hardly proof
2854 2013-06-05 23:51:37 <phantomcircuit> and iirc is indexed
2855 2013-06-05 23:51:43 <phantomcircuit> so it's not that big of a problem
2856 2013-06-05 23:51:50 <phantomcircuit> but over time it's a problem that will grow
2857 2013-06-05 23:51:53 <phantomcircuit> which is the problem
2858 2013-06-05 23:52:09 <CodeShark> I'd like to see the protocol discourage UTXO bloat, discourage empty block mining, and require hashes of the UTXO state in blocks
2859 2013-06-05 23:53:03 <melvin> you could do it by hand
2860 2013-06-05 23:53:11 <melvin> every 1/4 million blocks hash the chain state
2861 2013-06-05 23:53:18 <CodeShark> and I think all these things can be solved by paying rent to miners for the UTXO space usage at the time a block is mined
2862 2013-06-05 23:54:05 <melvin> i was talking to amiller about renting space, only issue is that rent is harder to do than a one off
2863 2013-06-05 23:55:50 <melvin> however if the tx are unspendable then miners dont need to store them, right? why dont they just prune the dust, then have a mechanism to get the balance in the highly unlikely event that they are used
2864 2013-06-05 23:56:17 <melvin> ie it's the MINERS fault if they are storing things they dont need to, right?
2865 2013-06-05 23:56:42 <PRab> melvin: You need more than just the balance. You need the entire list of transactions that is getting spent.
2866 2013-06-05 23:56:44 <CodeShark> an output's value would be whittled away each block using some formula that takes into account the output space and the present UTXO total space of the network
2867 2013-06-05 23:57:14 <CodeShark> a tiny output might only lose a single satoshi per block
2868 2013-06-05 23:57:21 <CodeShark> by tiny, I mean spacewise
2869 2013-06-05 23:57:59 <CodeShark> once an output's value goes to zero, it is removed
2870 2013-06-05 23:58:23 agnostic_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2871 2013-06-05 23:59:06 <CodeShark> the miner of the block gets to add the rent to its coinbase
2872 2013-06-05 23:59:23 <CodeShark> total winner :)
2873 2013-06-05 23:59:31 <PRab> CodeShark: Only think I don't like is a constant function.
2874 2013-06-05 23:59:39 donpdonp has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5)
2875 2013-06-05 23:59:45 <PRab> I would rather have it kick in after a certain period of time.