1 2013-06-06 00:00:01 <CodeShark> ok, very well - doesn't have to be constant
   2 2013-06-06 00:00:13 <PRab> That way if I want to avoid the rent, I would still need to pay a fee to move my money.
   3 2013-06-06 00:00:26 <CodeShark> so the function could also take into account how many blocks there've been since the output was created
   4 2013-06-06 00:01:04 <PRab> yes, and have it be like a cliff. No rent for a period of time then quickly get more and more expensive.
   5 2013-06-06 00:01:22 <PRab> but again, this is all alt-coin talk.
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   7 2013-06-06 00:01:33 <CodeShark> but that could encourage people just respending their own coins to avoid paying rent
   8 2013-06-06 00:02:05 <PRab> exactly. They would just send it to themself.
   9 2013-06-06 00:02:41 <PRab> For some reason I like that better than my money just slowly dissappearing.
  10 2013-06-06 00:03:19 <CodeShark> but what I'd like to encourage is people keeping large amounts in few, small outputs - not people just resending to themselves all the time
  11 2013-06-06 00:03:45 <melvin> you need a function spendability(address)
  12 2013-06-06 00:04:02 <melvin> which can estimate how likely the given address is likely to be used in the next block
  13 2013-06-06 00:04:29 <PRab> CodeShark: Yeah, I guess its just 2 sides to the same coin. Either way it shrinks the UTXO
  14 2013-06-06 00:04:35 <melvin> then you can run a full node, or a partial node based on how much disk you want to use
  15 2013-06-06 00:04:52 <melvin> and you'll get an optimal distribution, of balance between disk and integrity
  16 2013-06-06 00:04:59 <maaku_> CodeShark melvin: how would you implement the rent? demurrage-per-byte?
  17 2013-06-06 00:05:31 <melvin> maaku_: personally i prefer one off payments, which are the net present value of future costs
  18 2013-06-06 00:06:22 <maaku_> actually CodeShark, that's pretty brilliant
  19 2013-06-06 00:07:17 <maaku_> it'd be very easy to implement a system which requires fees proportional to the size of the inputs, scaled by age of the inputs
  20 2013-06-06 00:07:26 <maaku_> no fork required, it'd be enforced by the miners
  21 2013-06-06 00:07:53 <maaku_> of course it doesn't address dust which is never meant to be spent
  22 2013-06-06 00:11:03 ralphtheninja has joined
  23 2013-06-06 00:13:40 <melvin> is it not better to 'archive' tx rather than 'prune'?
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  25 2013-06-06 00:14:06 <Luke-Jr> melvin: that's effectively what it is
  26 2013-06-06 00:14:08 <melvin> i guess they have to stick around to ensure the integrity of the hashes
  27 2013-06-06 00:14:15 <melvin> Luke_Jr: ok got it
  28 2013-06-06 00:14:17 <amiller> demurrage per byte yeah
  29 2013-06-06 00:14:23 <amiller> per byte not per btc value, that is key
  30 2013-06-06 00:14:25 <melvin> amiller : hi :)
  31 2013-06-06 00:14:26 <PRab> define archive...
  32 2013-06-06 00:14:28 <amiller> it's a parking meter, not "demurrage"
  33 2013-06-06 00:15:14 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
  34 2013-06-06 00:15:29 <amiller> hi melvster :D
  35 2013-06-06 00:16:14 <maaku_> amiller: i'm really tempted to make a patch to do this.. it'd be trivially simple (few hours work)
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  37 2013-06-06 00:16:40 <melvin> maaku_: could you explain what the patch would do?
  38 2013-06-06 00:16:55 <amiller> here's one thing
  39 2013-06-06 00:17:02 <amiller> the only thing i haven't worked out to be happy with it i think
  40 2013-06-06 00:17:21 <amiller> is that you would have to have slack like
  41 2013-06-06 00:17:38 a_meteor is now known as a_meteorite
  42 2013-06-06 00:18:14 <amiller> lets say you make a tx that removes your balance from some utxo parking meter, if it gets put in at block T then you get to take 0.25 out, but if you take it out at block T+10 or something then you can only take out 0.24 or something
  43 2013-06-06 00:19:00 <amiller> i don't see how to account for that time dependent value or something maybe it would implicitly be mining fee unless you set whatever the value is or something i dunno
  44 2013-06-06 00:19:05 <amiller> anyway it would be really neat to see and simulate
  45 2013-06-06 00:19:10 <maaku_> melvin: rather (or perhaps in addition to) the fee-per-kb, there would be a 'storage' fee determined by the size and age of the inputs: (storage-fee-per-byte * size of input) ^ age-of-input
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  48 2013-06-06 00:21:14 <maaku_> amiller: this isn't freicoin's demurrage (which is manditory), but a rather a formula for determining priority of inclusion. you could still do a free or small-fee transaction if you wanted
  49 2013-06-06 00:21:47 <amiller> eh ok i see what you're talking about
  50 2013-06-06 00:21:53 <amiller> it's different than what i'm suggesting, which is ifne
  51 2013-06-06 00:22:08 <amiller> but what i'm suggesting is *NOT* freicoin's demurrage, which is per-btcvalue, this is per-utxobyte
  52 2013-06-06 00:22:36 <maaku_> amiller: yes, that's what I'm talking about here too
  53 2013-06-06 00:22:55 <maaku_> obviously i'm an advocate for freicoin's demurrage, but that's not what I'm talking about here either
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  56 2013-06-06 00:23:50 <amiller> ok so *minimum* fee proportional to the size of the inputs
  57 2013-06-06 00:23:56 <amiller> and age of inputs
  58 2013-06-06 00:24:03 <amiller> the problem is that the age of inputs can change after you construct the transaction
  59 2013-06-06 00:24:09 <amiller> probably not by very much typically
  60 2013-06-06 00:25:44 <maaku_> yes, which is why in freicoin we have a complicated system of "reference heights" embedded in the transactions. but you wouldn't need that here
  61 2013-06-06 00:25:51 <alex_fun> https://blog.linode.com/2013/04/16/security-incident-update/
  62 2013-06-06 00:26:00 <alex_fun> linode srewed again
  63 2013-06-06 00:26:28 <maaku_> the transaction would slowly lose priority over time as its inputs age, but would still be valid
  64 2013-06-06 00:27:26 <Luke-Jr> maaku_: you know, it might have been interesting to NOT have the reference height, and just require people to use tx fees to account for potential delays :p
  65 2013-06-06 00:27:29 <alex_fun> good I canceled my credit card on file
  66 2013-06-06 00:27:52 <maaku_> in theory you could make a followon transaction with a higher-than-necessary age, and CreateNewBlock would be smart enough to include the dependent txn
  67 2013-06-06 00:28:17 <maaku_> I don't know if the bitcoin code currently does this however
  68 2013-06-06 00:28:44 <Luke-Jr> maaku_: not mainline; the eligius branches (0.6 and 0.8) have for months
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  70 2013-06-06 00:28:52 <maaku_> Luke-Jr: actually the early betas worked that way. if your transaction didn't get confirmed in time, it became invalid. fun, but too risky...
  71 2013-06-06 00:29:19 <alex_fun> :)
  72 2013-06-06 00:29:26 <melvin> why dont people hash the chain state regularly and put it in the block chain?
  73 2013-06-06 00:29:27 <maaku_> Luke-Jr: have you made a pull request for that functionality? i've lamented it before
  74 2013-06-06 00:29:34 <melvin> rather than including it in the protocol
  75 2013-06-06 00:29:43 <maaku_> melvin: I'm working on that
  76 2013-06-06 00:29:53 <maaku_> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=204283.0
  77 2013-06-06 00:29:53 <melvin> maaku_: i mean by hand?
  78 2013-06-06 00:30:00 <Luke-Jr> maaku_: only risky if you have the anti-DoS for it
  79 2013-06-06 00:30:10 <Luke-Jr> maaku_: yes, it's in some pullreq
  80 2013-06-06 00:30:20 <Luke-Jr> maaku_: petertodd is working on rewriting it better though
  81 2013-06-06 00:30:27 <maaku_> oh good
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  83 2013-06-06 00:32:54 <melvin> maaku_: looks very cool!
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 105 2013-06-06 00:49:01 <melvin> maaku_: so the lightweight clients prune the tx, and can ask for them on demand?
 106 2013-06-06 00:49:35 <maaku_> melvin: yes, or even don't download the txns at all until they need them
 107 2013-06-06 00:49:47 <maaku_> just the block headers
 108 2013-06-06 00:49:57 <melvin> is there not a fear that this introduces a *systematic* weakness, if done deterministically rather than probabilistically?
 109 2013-06-06 00:50:31 <maaku_> on the contrary, I don't see how a proabalistic system would work. you'd have random forks all over the place
 110 2013-06-06 00:51:05 ralphtheninja has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 111 2013-06-06 00:51:10 <melvin> that's true
 112 2013-06-06 00:51:21 <melvin> what I mean is
 113 2013-06-06 00:52:12 <melvin> maaku_: you can run 1) a full node 2) a lightweight node, what about something in between where you specify how much disk you want to use and it gets a (say normally distributed) sample of the tx you may need
 114 2013-06-06 00:53:17 <melvin> in this way you have less dependence on an untrusted peer
 115 2013-06-06 00:53:26 <maaku_> melvin: unless you are mining or running a full node as a service you never need txns unrelated to your wallet
 116 2013-06-06 00:53:39 <maaku_> and you should always, always validate every transaction that enters your wallet
 117 2013-06-06 00:54:04 Guest72809 is now known as Namjies
 118 2013-06-06 00:54:19 <maaku_> what I think you're missing is that with UTXO indices you can fully validate your wallet, while only downloading the pieces you need
 119 2013-06-06 00:54:28 <maaku_> more info here --> http://utxo.tumblr.com/post/51739920287/introduction
 120 2013-06-06 00:54:40 <melvin> maaku_: thanks! :)
 121 2013-06-06 00:56:08 <melvin> maaku_: im more thinking out loud right now, obviously there's a trade off between disk and block chain integrity ...
 122 2013-06-06 00:57:05 <alex_fun> maaku nice
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 125 2013-06-06 00:58:48 robbak has joined
 126 2013-06-06 00:58:57 <gruez> ---------------------------
 127 2013-06-06 00:58:57 <gruez> Microsoft Visual C++ Runtime Library
 128 2013-06-06 00:59:01 <melvin> maaku_: so my thinking is as follows ... imagine you had a tx that was considered to be dust with 99.99% probability, and then people systematically assumed it could be pruned ... if *everyone* deterministically pruned that tx, it could introduce a black swan event where it was actually needed later, and systematically the error was compounded by everyone doing the same thing, but if it's done more randomly, the risk is diversified over many servers ..
 129 2013-06-06 00:59:01 <melvin> .. sorry if that's not very coherent!
 130 2013-06-06 00:59:02 <gruez> ---------------------------
 131 2013-06-06 00:59:05 <gruez> Assertion failed!
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 133 2013-06-06 00:59:15 <gruez>  Program: C:\Users\gruez\Desktop\bitcoin\bitcoin-qt.exe
 134 2013-06-06 00:59:19 <gruez> File: ./db/dbformat.h
 135 2013-06-06 00:59:23 <gruez> Line: 96
 136 2013-06-06 00:59:26 <gruez> Expression: internal_key.size() >= 8
 137 2013-06-06 00:59:32 <gruez> For information on how your program can cause an assertion failure, see the Visual C++ documentation on asserts
 138 2013-06-06 00:59:37 <gruez> (Press Retry to debug the application - JIT must be enabled)
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 142 2013-06-06 01:04:07 <maaku_> melvin: there's no procedure for correcting an invalid prune. if you pruned that dust, you will end up on a fork. your client will eventually enter safe mode, but with no recovery mechanism
 143 2013-06-06 01:04:42 <maaku_> eventually the chance of syncing the block chain and getting it right will limit to zero, and everyone will be forked and bitcoin useless
 144 2013-06-06 01:05:19 <maaku_> probabalistic dropping of txns doesn't work - you should never pretend to full node when you're not
 145 2013-06-06 01:06:22 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2651  I rebased this locally, getting rid of his giant messy merge commit
 146 2013-06-06 01:06:36 <warren> do I submit it, or wait for him?  what is the protocol here?
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 148 2013-06-06 01:08:29 <phantomcircuit> ha
 149 2013-06-06 01:08:55 <phantomcircuit> vessenes mailing the bitcoin-dev mailing list with some nonesense about making bitcoin reversible
 150 2013-06-06 01:09:09 <phantomcircuit> nothx peter
 151 2013-06-06 01:10:22 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
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 153 2013-06-06 01:12:24 <maaku_> if you create an opt-in reversible layer, that will quickly get legislated as the only legal mode of operation
 154 2013-06-06 01:12:29 <maaku_> i will take no part in that
 155 2013-06-06 01:12:31 patcon has joined
 156 2013-06-06 01:14:12 <phantomcircuit> maaku_, well and of course the joke is that it's impossible to enforce
 157 2013-06-06 01:14:19 patcon__ has joined
 158 2013-06-06 01:14:32 <phantomcircuit> at least not without major widespread censorship of the internet
 159 2013-06-06 01:14:38 <phantomcircuit> and even then it would probably be difficult
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 165 2013-06-06 01:19:18 <maaku_> anyone care to guess what the annual percentage storage cost of 1kB of UTXO data should be?
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 167 2013-06-06 01:19:49 <MC1984_> some of those guys on the foundation board say some strange things and thus have suspect intentions imo
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 172 2013-06-06 01:29:31 <SteveDekorte> are txs with any dust outputs generally not accepted now?
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 175 2013-06-06 01:33:49 <melvin> maaku_: didnt gavin have a gist with some back of envelope calcs?
 176 2013-06-06 01:34:15 FredEE has joined
 177 2013-06-06 01:34:28 <melvin> maaku_: https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/5044482
 178 2013-06-06 01:35:23 <melvin> phantomcircuit: satoshi did say there were 'routine escrow mechanisms' to protect buyers
 179 2013-06-06 01:36:11 da2ce7 has joined
 180 2013-06-06 01:36:22 <jrmithdobbs> melvin: yes, escrow is trivial to implement correctly with some of the disabled op codes
 181 2013-06-06 01:36:26 <jrmithdobbs> that is what he was referring to
 182 2013-06-06 01:36:35 <jrmithdobbs> iirc
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 184 2013-06-06 01:37:01 <phantomcircuit> melvin, escrow in a meaningful sense requires a dispute resolution mechanism
 185 2013-06-06 01:37:03 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 186 2013-06-06 01:37:10 <melvin> it strikes me he meant a trusted third party, but surely there's a lot of clever stuff in the scripts
 187 2013-06-06 01:37:26 <phantomcircuit> basically you need to have an arbitration mechanism
 188 2013-06-06 01:37:33 <phantomcircuit> and it has to be fairly cheap and efficient
 189 2013-06-06 01:37:38 <jrmithdobbs> melvin: yes the script stuff enables doing things that would require acceptance/etc from the third party
 190 2013-06-06 01:37:40 <phantomcircuit> which is hardly trivial
 191 2013-06-06 01:38:00 <melvin> phantomcircuit: sure you end up paying for a call center even if you dont use it
 192 2013-06-06 01:38:09 <jrmithdobbs> melvin: bitcoin itself can't really solve the human arbitration/dispute resolution part of escrow you know
 193 2013-06-06 01:38:15 <phantomcircuit> melvin, right the primary difference between normal escrow and bitcoin escrow is that the escrow service cannot directly steal
 194 2013-06-06 01:38:15 <jrmithdobbs> except in very limited scenarios
 195 2013-06-06 01:39:14 <melvin> i wonder if you could combine escrow and proof of work, say some guy is sitting on an asic mine
 196 2013-06-06 01:39:20 <melvin> he could be the escrow
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 198 2013-06-06 01:39:24 <phantomcircuit> ie their incentive is to deal with problems in a fast and fair way
 199 2013-06-06 01:39:34 <jrmithdobbs> melvin: no
 200 2013-06-06 01:39:36 <phantomcircuit> instead of paypal whose incentives are to do fuck all
 201 2013-06-06 01:39:38 <melvin> and compute a missing secret for someone without being able to steal
 202 2013-06-06 01:40:26 <jrmithdobbs> melvin: well yes kind of, the third party would need something like that sure, but it doesn't solve the central dispute resolution part
 203 2013-06-06 01:40:48 <melvin> jrmithdobbs: got it so you'd pay for the service
 204 2013-06-06 01:40:51 <jrmithdobbs> melvin: eg, you say you sent me a $20k 500" lcd screen, we do this with an escrow txn but the tv never arrives
 205 2013-06-06 01:41:10 <jrmithdobbs> melvin: the software itself can't really prove the goods were never received
 206 2013-06-06 01:41:22 <jrmithdobbs> that whole resolution process is out of scope
 207 2013-06-06 01:41:51 <melvin> jrmithdobbs: if you sign a statement saying you recieved the tv with your private key the s/w could verify that surely?
 208 2013-06-06 01:42:12 <jrmithdobbs> melvin: so then i'm going to say i never received anything and keep getting refunded.
 209 2013-06-06 01:42:16 <jrmithdobbs> and get a bunch of free shit
 210 2013-06-06 01:42:35 <melvin> yeah so you transfer the risk to the seller
 211 2013-06-06 01:42:44 <jrmithdobbs> which defeats the point of escrow.
 212 2013-06-06 01:43:05 <phantomcircuit> melvin, if you're dealing with purely automated escrow then either the seller or the buying carries the risk
 213 2013-06-06 01:43:20 <phantomcircuit> which is a pretty lame solution
 214 2013-06-06 01:43:33 <melvin> so escrow only works if there is an independently verifiable trigger condition ... so you need something unambigous or an arbiter / oracle?
 215 2013-06-06 01:43:35 <jrmithdobbs> there are limited scenarios where you can make this work where all of the results of the transactions are computable and other contrived (but by no means useless) scenarios
 216 2013-06-06 01:43:54 <jrmithdobbs> melvin: right.
 217 2013-06-06 01:44:01 <melvin> actually you can have more than one oracle
 218 2013-06-06 01:44:15 <melvin> and each oracle can have a trust rating
 219 2013-06-06 01:44:18 <jrmithdobbs> bitcoin can solve PARTS of the problem for most cases and all of the problem for a very tiny subset
 220 2013-06-06 01:45:05 <jrmithdobbs> (the subset is very useful though for things like securities contracts and blah blah blah)
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 222 2013-06-06 01:46:02 <melvin> ok so that makes sense, you pay a fee and hire an oracle, it's not that different from the current situation where you have judges etc.
 223 2013-06-06 01:46:13 <melvin> the problem lies is distribution of trust
 224 2013-06-06 01:46:19 <jrmithdobbs> as usual
 225 2013-06-06 01:46:21 <jrmithdobbs> :P
 226 2013-06-06 01:47:07 <melvin> jrmithdobbs: trust can be games, we're bad at detecting black swans, but some rating systems work well, such as the chess ELO system is quite accurate
 227 2013-06-06 01:47:13 <melvin> s/games/gamed
 228 2013-06-06 01:47:32 <phantomcircuit> melvin, i've been considering starting an escrow service
 229 2013-06-06 01:47:40 <phantomcircuit> but im in california where you need to be licensed
 230 2013-06-06 01:47:45 <phantomcircuit> nuisance to the max
 231 2013-06-06 01:47:50 <jrmithdobbs> melvin: yes but nothing proven exists for this really, we keep tip toeing around the problem
 232 2013-06-06 01:48:34 <melvin> jrmithdobbs: we could invent something
 233 2013-06-06 01:48:50 <melvin> jrmithdobbs: a relatively fair reputation system
 234 2013-06-06 01:48:53 <jrmithdobbs> melvin: people have tried various different things and there's a bunch of interesting research in the area but most of it involves major flaws that make it unsuitable (at least that i'm aware of)
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 236 2013-06-06 01:49:06 <maaku_> thanks melvin
 237 2013-06-06 01:49:08 <jrmithdobbs> melvin: and it's very very very hard to do in a decentralized way which is important
 238 2013-06-06 01:49:23 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, well that's only important for some people
 239 2013-06-06 01:49:38 <melvin> jrmithdobbs: so one aspect could be that it becomes exponentially more difficult to attain trust.
 240 2013-06-06 01:49:59 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: too few, imho
 241 2013-06-06 01:50:06 <phantomcircuit> i wonder if the california department of financial institutions would allow an escrow service based in california but not serving california clients to not register
 242 2013-06-06 01:50:14 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: that's where the promise/awesomeness of all this is ;p
 243 2013-06-06 01:50:27 <bitRipperX> has anyone tried the 0mq patch for the satoshi client?
 244 2013-06-06 01:50:52 <jrmithdobbs> the what
 245 2013-06-06 01:51:00 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, well the key point is agreeing on who the arbiter should be, once that has happened multi party escrow is a problem that should be fairly easy to solve in bitcoin
 246 2013-06-06 01:51:04 <jrmithdobbs> why would you need a patch to feed bitcoind data into amqp?
 247 2013-06-06 01:51:11 <bitRipperX> 0mq
 248 2013-06-06 01:51:15 <jrmithdobbs> whatever
 249 2013-06-06 01:51:24 <jrmithdobbs> same function
 250 2013-06-06 01:51:25 <bitRipperX> push notification
 251 2013-06-06 01:52:15 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: yes but managing trust relationships and who to trust trust ratings from and other such nonsense to bootstrap the whole thing is the problem i just said we're tip toeing around! ;p
 252 2013-06-06 01:52:20 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 253 2013-06-06 01:52:29 <jrmithdobbs> bitRipperX: doesn't change my question, you don't need a patch to do that
 254 2013-06-06 01:53:32 <melvin> jrmithdobbs: we distributed trust in btc to the miners ... it's the diversity of trust that makes it harder to game, you could do something similar with escrow
 255 2013-06-06 01:53:40 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, solutions that determine trust in a quantitative fashion are pretty much universally broken
 256 2013-06-06 01:53:40 <bitRipperX> jrmithdobbs: How do you find out something has happened real-time in the client without slamming it with RPC requests?
 257 2013-06-06 01:53:44 <phantomcircuit> there's all kinds of trust
 258 2013-06-06 01:53:56 <jrmithdobbs> phantomcircuit: i know, that's what we're discussing lol
 259 2013-06-06 01:54:14 <phantomcircuit> i have lots of friends i would trust to not steal from me who i wouldn't trust to pay back a loan
 260 2013-06-06 01:54:40 <jrmithdobbs> bitRipperX: bitcoind -?; there's a notify exec or something Luke-Jr got added that will exec an external command with the block data
 261 2013-06-06 01:54:52 <jrmithdobbs> bitRipperX: so you write a script that shoves it into your queue
 262 2013-06-06 01:54:53 <melvin> phantomcircuit: trust is contextual, but for escrow you are given a context
 263 2013-06-06 01:55:14 <phantomcircuit> melvin, you're only given half of a context
 264 2013-06-06 01:55:28 <jrmithdobbs> not even that much necessarily
 265 2013-06-06 01:55:39 <phantomcircuit> especially if the arbitration question is non trivial
 266 2013-06-06 01:55:39 <jrmithdobbs> depending on the details of the escrow arrangement
 267 2013-06-06 01:55:45 <jrmithdobbs> ya
 268 2013-06-06 01:56:03 <phantomcircuit> i might trust someone to determine whether a package was actually mailed with a certain degree of accuracy
 269 2013-06-06 01:56:09 <jrmithdobbs> we've only given simple buyer/seller scenarios, but escrow gets much more complicated than that
 270 2013-06-06 01:56:11 <melvin> phantomcircuit: I think the optimal solution is to let the free market determine a list of escrow providers, and if you want to use that service, you pay the appropriate fee
 271 2013-06-06 01:56:19 <phantomcircuit> but not trust them to determine whether a piece of software constitutes a correct deliverable under a contract
 272 2013-06-06 01:56:35 <jrmithdobbs> ya you lost me at "let the free market determine"
 273 2013-06-06 01:56:45 <jrmithdobbs> less lolbertarianism more logic, thx
 274 2013-06-06 01:57:06 <phantomcircuit> melvin, the problem with trust is that it's so easily forged
 275 2013-06-06 01:57:16 <melvin> jrmithdobbs: lol yeah it's hard to imagine a truly free market, but what I mean is that you have participants to choose from
 276 2013-06-06 01:57:27 <phantomcircuit> just check my otc rating if you want to know what's wrong with trust measuring systems
 277 2013-06-06 01:57:42 <jrmithdobbs> melvin: the free market couldn't prevent the collapse of the world's major financial institutions, why would it produce an arbiter that i can trust to not lie to me?
 278 2013-06-06 01:57:51 <jrmithdobbs> just sayin
 279 2013-06-06 01:58:00 <melvin> phantomcircuit: sure it's easy to get fooled by randomness, but you can mitigate that to an extent with a smarter algorithm, which can limit human error
 280 2013-06-06 01:58:15 <phantomcircuit> jrmithdobbs, too be fair that was less an issue with the free market and more an issue with screwed up government incentives :/
 281 2013-06-06 01:58:17 <jrmithdobbs> trust relationship are exactly what markets are HORRIBLE at setting
 282 2013-06-06 01:58:21 <bitRipperX> jrmithdobbs: is that a command line argument or something?
 283 2013-06-06 01:58:37 <melvin> jrmithdobbs: I would not consider that to be a free market, more an example of the system being gamed
 284 2013-06-06 01:58:45 <jrmithdobbs> because all/most of the data needed to make the decisions can be forged easily
 285 2013-06-06 01:59:01 <jrmithdobbs> melvin: a free market can be gamed by definition because the players set the rules.
 286 2013-06-06 01:59:10 <jrmithdobbs> so, yes, exactly, that is my point.
 287 2013-06-06 01:59:31 <jrmithdobbs> bitRipperX: yes
 288 2013-06-06 01:59:49 <melvin> jrmithdobbs: yes this is why opt in is important, and hence bitcoin is opt in
 289 2013-06-06 01:59:50 <jrmithdobbs> bitRipperX: i forget the exact name of it but if you run bitcoind -? you should be able to find it pretty easy
 290 2013-06-06 01:59:58 <jrmithdobbs> bitRipperX: it's called blocknotify or blockexec or something
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 294 2013-06-06 02:00:14 <melvin> i mean bitcoin escrow is opt in
 295 2013-06-06 02:01:47 <bitRipperX> jrmithdobbs: ah, ok I found it. I'll play with it. thanks for the tip.
 296 2013-06-06 02:02:09 <melvin> the problem then becomes that people make a business model of trying to make the opt in ubiquitous
 297 2013-06-06 02:02:26 <melvin> and good actors end up paying for bad
 298 2013-06-06 02:02:54 <jrmithdobbs> ya i'm not convinced that this is rooted directly enough in a technical problem to be solvable (at least right now) adequately in a completely/mostly automated way
 299 2013-06-06 02:03:00 <melvin> which in itself may not be so bad, but it limits casual transactions as satoshi points out
 300 2013-06-06 02:03:16 <jrmithdobbs> happy to be proven wrong ;p
 301 2013-06-06 02:03:28 <melvin> jrmithdobbs: automated escrow bots could have potential
 302 2013-06-06 02:03:38 <melvin> in very very controlled environments
 303 2013-06-06 02:03:57 <melvin> where the criteria are computable with a high level of certainty
 304 2013-06-06 02:04:08 <jrmithdobbs> it's an interesting idea i agree, i'm just more interested (generally speaking) in more directly appliable solutions (as in, appliable now)
 305 2013-06-06 02:04:23 <jrmithdobbs> and we can do escrow "as good as everyone else" right now with minimal effort
 306 2013-06-06 02:05:14 <jrmithdobbs> melvin: sounds like an interesting research project to play around with on testnet though, have at it ;p
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 308 2013-06-06 02:06:06 <bitRipperX> jrmithdobbs: -blocknotify=<cmd>     Execute command when the best block changes (%s in cmd is replaced by block hash)
 309 2013-06-06 02:06:59 <melvin> jrmithdobbs: which classes of problem do you think can be easily independently verified, by a human, or even better, by a machine?
 310 2013-06-06 02:07:08 <jrmithdobbs> bitRipperX: right so your script should trigger something, give it the block hash, query bitcoind for the data you need, then shove the json into your mq setup
 311 2013-06-06 02:07:09 <bitRipperX> jrmithdobbs: so if I want to find out if a specific address had a transaction on it, I would get every block hash then query the client to find out if that address is in the block?
 312 2013-06-06 02:07:49 <melvin> lol speaking of escrow, im currently winning that auction for the house in germany ... lol if i won id turn it into an asic mine, it's even got a windmill so cheap electricity! :P
 313 2013-06-06 02:08:14 <bitRipperX> ok, I can live with that
 314 2013-06-06 02:08:15 <bitRipperX> thanks again
 315 2013-06-06 02:08:49 <jrmithdobbs> bitRipperX: that's why i was confused when you said someone wrote a patch to do that
 316 2013-06-06 02:11:06 <bitRipperX> jrmithdobbs: the patch pushes all transactions, ip addresses and blocks to a queue in real time. dont't know if there's much of a performance difference between blocknotify and 0mq patch, but will stick to the non-hack.
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 318 2013-06-06 02:12:04 <jrmithdobbs> bitRipperX: ya -blocknotify seems like you'd be able filter/only query what you actually need instead of shoving it all to the queue
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 320 2013-06-06 02:12:34 <jrmithdobbs> and i can't think of many cases where the speed difference is going to matter considering a new block on average every 10 minutes
 321 2013-06-06 02:12:58 <jrmithdobbs> because anything that can't shove all that into a queue within 5-10 minutes is probably pretty broken anyways ;p
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 406 2013-06-06 04:52:58 <BCB> kk
 407 2013-06-06 04:52:59 <BCB> later
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 418 2013-06-06 05:11:35 <phantomcircuit> lol
 419 2013-06-06 05:11:41 <phantomcircuit> you cant run bitcoind with mcheck
 420 2013-06-06 05:12:03 <phantomcircuit> memory clobbered before allocated block
 421 2013-06-06 05:13:57 <sipa> really? it works fine on valgrind here
 422 2013-06-06 05:14:06 <TheUni> sipa: ping
 423 2013-06-06 05:14:12 <sipa> TheUni: yes?
 424 2013-06-06 05:14:32 <phantomcircuit> sipa, try building with -lmcheck
 425 2013-06-06 05:14:38 <TheUni> sipa: are dependencies build deterministically as well?
 426 2013-06-06 05:14:39 <phantomcircuit> it doesn't even get past AppInit2
 427 2013-06-06 05:14:58 <gmaxwell> TheUni: the entire builds are determinstic.
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 429 2013-06-06 05:15:07 <TheUni> sipa: or does the final deterministic binary depend on a static set of pre-build non-deterministic libs?
 430 2013-06-06 05:15:08 <TheUni> ok
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 433 2013-06-06 05:15:16 <sipa> well, iirc some dependencies are not exactly deterministic
 434 2013-06-06 05:15:20 <sipa> without affecting the final build
 435 2013-06-06 05:15:44 <gmaxwell> yea, asking that way— the base system is a precondition... it's not like it builds gcc and glibc and such.
 436 2013-06-06 05:15:49 <TheUni> but you and i could both start from qt/boost/etc. sources, and generate the same bitcoind?
 437 2013-06-06 05:16:00 forrestv has joined
 438 2013-06-06 05:16:15 <TheUni> gmaxwell: sure, i realize there's an assumption of using a predetermined toolchain
 439 2013-06-06 05:16:40 <sipa> at some point the qt build (i think) was not deterministic, and this affected the final build
 440 2013-06-06 05:17:09 <sipa> so you had to start from a single built of qt, which sort-of defeated gitian's purpose
 441 2013-06-06 05:17:11 <Luke-Jr> since we're not distributing the dependencies, it makes no difference
 442 2013-06-06 05:17:16 <sipa> unsure whether that's still the case
 443 2013-06-06 05:17:20 <maaku_> gmaxwell: well my vagrant-gitian scripts builds out the toolchain too :P
 444 2013-06-06 05:17:36 <TheUni> Luke-Jr: what do you mean? the dependencies are static...
 445 2013-06-06 05:18:23 <gmaxwell> the static ones are determinstically built, upto the OS level at least... otherwise the binaries we distribute wouldn't match, and they do.
 446 2013-06-06 05:18:25 <Luke-Jr> TheUni: not the parts in question
 447 2013-06-06 05:18:36 <TheUni> essentially i'm trying to understand what i have to do to provide (what i consider) to be a better way to handle the dependencies, without causing any regressions
 448 2013-06-06 05:18:56 <Luke-Jr> TheUni: as long as the outputs of the gitian.yml and gitian-win32.yml match, you're fine
 449 2013-06-06 05:19:31 <TheUni> gmaxwell: ok, thanks. that answers my question. i was trying to ascertain the base level. seems to be a toolchain and nothing more
 450 2013-06-06 05:19:35 <sipa> TheUni: i would deal with the dependencies later
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 452 2013-06-06 05:20:06 <sipa> TheUni: assume you have the .zip files for the dependencies already in gitian/inputs, potentially organized/named differently if that simplifies things for you
 453 2013-06-06 05:20:31 <TheUni> sipa: sure, that's done. i'm writing up a cheat-sheet for the PR. I'm just thinking of the next steps
 454 2013-06-06 05:20:42 <sipa> TheUni: including bitcoin-qt?
 455 2013-06-06 05:20:47 <TheUni> yea
 456 2013-06-06 05:20:47 <phantomcircuit> sipa, VerifyDB "memory clobbered before allocated block"
 457 2013-06-06 05:20:50 <phantomcircuit> weird
 458 2013-06-06 05:21:04 <phantomcircuit> maybe something about how leveldb uses memory screws up mcheck
 459 2013-06-06 05:21:11 <TheUni> sipa: i realize there's going to be endless bikeshedding about this, so i'm trying to make it as regression-free and easy one everyone as possible, to remove those arguments
 460 2013-06-06 05:21:13 <sipa> phantomcircuit: mmap() ?
 461 2013-06-06 05:21:19 <phantomcircuit> possibly
 462 2013-06-06 05:21:25 <phantomcircuit> i'll follow the rabbit hole some more
 463 2013-06-06 05:21:30 <TheUni> *easy on
 464 2013-06-06 05:21:32 <sipa> TheUni: i'm eager to see it :)
 465 2013-06-06 05:21:35 <phantomcircuit> huh
 466 2013-06-06 05:21:50 <TheUni> sipa: will pr in a few
 467 2013-06-06 05:21:55 <phantomcircuit> sipa, im getting the error before a breakpoint on VerifyDB is hit
 468 2013-06-06 05:21:59 <phantomcircuit> confuse
 469 2013-06-06 05:22:03 <TheUni> sipa: it gets rid of qmake, i expect that to raise a few eyebrows
 470 2013-06-06 05:23:10 <phantomcircuit> disassemble AppInit2
 471 2013-06-06 05:23:11 <phantomcircuit> :(
 472 2013-06-06 05:23:29 <sipa> TheUni: as long as it works, not mine :)
 473 2013-06-06 05:23:37 <sipa> TheUni: but wumpus may have a different opinion
 474 2013-06-06 05:24:00 tyn has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 475 2013-06-06 05:24:02 <TheUni> sipa: put a check in the box for the autotools plugin in qt-creator, and it's like nothing changed
 476 2013-06-06 05:24:22 <sipa> ok
 477 2013-06-06 05:24:27 <TheUni> it surprised me how elegant it is, actually
 478 2013-06-06 05:25:08 <TheUni> all other autotools ide plugins i've seen have been trainwrecks, this one just works
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 487 2013-06-06 05:35:32 <TheUni> phantomcircuit: heh, there's not a silver bullet
 488 2013-06-06 05:35:42 <TheUni> squash one and on to the next
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 495 2013-06-06 05:42:31 <phantomcircuit> stepping through the boost signaling stuff makes me want to cry
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 501 2013-06-06 05:45:29 <TheUni> phantomcircuit: you're on the overloaded operator, then?
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 529 2013-06-06 06:34:30 <wumpus> TheUni: please keep the qmake file (even if its in contrib/wumpus-crap or so :p)
 530 2013-06-06 06:34:52 <TheUni> wumpus: everything i've done is back-compat, so they can live in harmony if necessary
 531 2013-06-06 06:35:07 <wumpus> TheUni: I really like having a file tree in qt creator
 532 2013-06-06 06:35:15 <TheUni> wumpus: you still do
 533 2013-06-06 06:35:23 <wumpus> TheUni: even if it gets out of date for building anymore
 534 2013-06-06 06:35:25 <TheUni> it looks just like a .pro layout
 535 2013-06-06 06:35:38 <wumpus> ok...
 536 2013-06-06 06:36:09 <TheUni> wumpus: got a min to try it out? i'm not done writing it up yet, but you can pull from my tree before i PR it if you don't mind taking a quick look?
 537 2013-06-06 06:36:29 <wumpus> I don't have time right now, sorry, maybe in the afternoon
 538 2013-06-06 06:36:40 <TheUni> np
 539 2013-06-06 06:36:42 <sipa> TheUni: uri?
 540 2013-06-06 06:37:09 <TheUni> sipa: sec. stupid phantomcircuit distracted me with his treasure hunt :)
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 542 2013-06-06 06:38:41 <TheUni> sipa: https://github.com/theuni/bitcoin/tree/autotools-rebase
 543 2013-06-06 06:38:42 <sipa> ha
 544 2013-06-06 06:39:35 <TheUni> or, to save you a click: git remote add -f theuni git://github.com/theuni/bitcoin.git
 545 2013-06-06 06:40:15 <TheUni> sipa: in linux?
 546 2013-06-06 06:40:35 <sipa> yes
 547 2013-06-06 06:41:33 <TheUni> sipa: assuming there's nothing crazy about your setup, ./autogen.sh && ./configure && make
 548 2013-06-06 06:41:52 <gmaxwell> akk/window 4
 549 2013-06-06 06:42:17 <TheUni> eh?
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 552 2013-06-06 06:45:40 * SomeoneWeird slaps gmaxwell 
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 554 2013-06-06 06:47:20 <sipa> TheUni: seems to work!
 555 2013-06-06 06:47:32 <TheUni> sipa: first try, i'll take it :)
 556 2013-06-06 06:47:59 <sipa> yes
 557 2013-06-06 06:48:42 <TheUni> sipa: if you don't mind: make check
 558 2013-06-06 06:49:12 <sipa> also works :)
 559 2013-06-06 06:49:42 <TheUni> great. recent-ish ubuntu, i guess?
 560 2013-06-06 06:49:53 <sipa> yeah 13.04
 561 2013-06-06 06:50:39 <TheUni> sipa: './configure --help' and see if there's anything glaring that i might've missed
 562 2013-06-06 06:51:07 <sipa> there's --enable-upnp, but can you set whether it's enabled by default at runtime or not?
 563 2013-06-06 06:51:37 <TheUni> i have lots of screaming about that to do, but atm i believe i emulate the current behavior
 564 2013-06-06 06:51:54 <wumpus> TheUni: why put the autogen.sh in src/ ? 
 565 2013-06-06 06:52:14 <sipa> hmm, some m4 files are LGPL?
 566 2013-06-06 06:52:17 <wumpus> any other project I know of simply has it in the root
 567 2013-06-06 06:53:04 <wumpus> in any case, it works here too!
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 569 2013-06-06 06:53:19 <sipa> TheUni: it's probably the worst-understood config flag we have, and there's certainly better ways, but i don't see a way to enable/disable upnp at runtime?
 570 2013-06-06 06:53:27 RazielZ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 571 2013-06-06 06:53:31 <wumpus> from the command line, at least, which file do I open in qt creator?
 572 2013-06-06 06:53:45 <sipa> (not that i feel particularly hard about it, but if you say you're mimicking current behaviour, i don't see it)
 573 2013-06-06 06:53:47 <TheUni> wumpus: cmdline, no clue. you have to install the plugin first
 574 2013-06-06 06:53:56 <wumpus> oh crap :/
 575 2013-06-06 06:54:06 <sipa> ?
 576 2013-06-06 06:54:07 <TheUni> wumpus: heh, ssh'ing to home?
 577 2013-06-06 06:54:27 <wumpus> TheUni: eh sorry those were two sentences merged in to one
 578 2013-06-06 06:54:31 <wumpus> TheUni: it works from the command line
 579 2013-06-06 06:54:45 <wumpus> TheUni: I'm now trying to open it in qt creator
 580 2013-06-06 06:55:04 <TheUni> wumpus: understood. i saw the 'oh crap' and assumed it meant you don't have access to the gui atm
 581 2013-06-06 06:55:04 <wumpus> but I need a plugin? ouch
 582 2013-06-06 06:55:15 <TheUni> wumpus: it's literally just a click away
 583 2013-06-06 06:55:35 <TheUni> about -> plugins -> automake -> done
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 586 2013-06-06 06:56:05 <TheUni> sorry, Autotools
 587 2013-06-06 06:56:16 <TheUni> then, to answer your question, it's the Makefile.am that you'll be opening
 588 2013-06-06 06:56:29 <wumpus> hm under about I see "Installed PLugins", but that doesn't help me
 589 2013-06-06 06:56:44 <sipa> autotoolsprojectmanager?
 590 2013-06-06 06:57:06 <TheUni> sipa: looks like you're right. i'll get that working.
 591 2013-06-06 06:57:07 <TheUni> sipa: yep
 592 2013-06-06 06:57:19 <wumpus> only four entries under build systems, and they're all enabled, none is called auto*
 593 2013-06-06 06:57:42 <TheUni> wumpus: hmm. i'm on osx atm, and qt creator shipped with it ready to go
 594 2013-06-06 06:58:10 <wumpus> could be, this the ubuntu stock install with 12.04 so it's probably pretty old...
 595 2013-06-06 06:58:41 <sipa> wumpus: here on 13.04 it seems to work (but this is the first time i ever open qtcreator, so i have no idea what to check to see if it works)
 596 2013-06-06 06:59:20 <wumpus> sipa: does it have a tree of files to the left, with sources, headers, forms, resources?
 597 2013-06-06 06:59:23 <TheUni> sipa: open the .pro for comparison
 598 2013-06-06 07:00:59 <wumpus> in any case, got to head of to the salt mines, speak to you later
 599 2013-06-06 07:01:14 <TheUni> wumpus: only thing it doesn't do is let you deal with resources as resources
 600 2013-06-06 07:01:22 <TheUni> meaning, you just see a flat list of files
 601 2013-06-06 07:01:34 <TheUni> looking into whether that's fixable or not
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 603 2013-06-06 07:02:24 <sipa> it seems to work, but indeed, flat files
 604 2013-06-06 07:02:31 <sipa> well, not flat, it's the directory hierarchy
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 606 2013-06-06 07:02:45 <sipa> not categorized into sources/headers/forms/resources
 607 2013-06-06 07:03:09 <TheUni> yea, it doesn't know how to categorize anything
 608 2013-06-06 07:03:30 <TheUni> i'm hoping it's possible to name/tag files such that it will pick them up. but i have a feeling the plugin just doesn't handle that
 609 2013-06-06 07:03:53 <TheUni> (name/tag in the makefile, not changing filenames of course)
 610 2013-06-06 07:05:46 <sipa> i don't see anything like forms or resources at all
 611 2013-06-06 07:05:49 mollison has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
 612 2013-06-06 07:05:52 <sipa> just .cpp and .h files
 613 2013-06-06 07:06:36 <sipa> can't see bitcoin.qrc either
 614 2013-06-06 07:08:00 <TheUni> yea, i couldn't find any docs for how those things are supposed to be identified (if at all). i've cloned the plugin source, will grep around over the next few days
 615 2013-06-06 07:08:05 <tgs3> the 4 hour wait on bitcoin forum is really fucking annoying
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 620 2013-06-06 07:10:38 <TheUni> sipa: but given that the plugin has some decent unit tests, and none include more than source/headers, i'm assuming it's just not implemented
 621 2013-06-06 07:10:53 <sipa> i have a feeling wumpus will not like that :p
 622 2013-06-06 07:11:09 <TheUni> heh
 623 2013-06-06 07:11:20 <TheUni> my hope is that we can somehow save a .pro with the autotools build steps
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 626 2013-06-06 07:12:58 <TheUni> sipa: any other criticism? Any idea what the big counter-arguments might be?
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 651 2013-06-06 07:47:40 <CodeShark> if I accidentally close a pull request, how do I reopen it?
 652 2013-06-06 07:48:37 <CodeShark> oh, nvm :)
 653 2013-06-06 07:54:04 <TheUni> CodeShark: btw, i'm not worried about our work clashing, i just didn't want it so that we were conflicting on upstream and eachother at the same time
 654 2013-06-06 07:54:38 <TheUni> but it's not a concern anymore
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 657 2013-06-06 07:58:38 <CodeShark> yeah, I don't think we're touching the same things very much
 658 2013-06-06 07:59:03 <CodeShark> I've sort of abandoned the configure script pull request
 659 2013-06-06 07:59:30 <CodeShark> seems like you're far more capable of pulling it off than I am :)
 660 2013-06-06 08:00:51 <TheUni> ah, that was yours a while ago?
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 664 2013-06-06 08:03:00 <CodeShark> or were you talking about conflicting on more recent stuff?
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 667 2013-06-06 08:07:35 <TheUni> CodeShark: nevermind :)
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 721 2013-06-06 10:29:17 <FluffySheap> Hello all, I have a technical question about the algorithm.
 722 2013-06-06 10:29:19 <FluffySheap> Mining is rated in mega hashes per second
 723 2013-06-06 10:29:27 <FluffySheap> but each block attempt is actually two hashes
 724 2013-06-06 10:29:37 <FluffySheap> one chained to the other
 725 2013-06-06 10:29:46 DonnchaC_ is now known as DonnchaC
 726 2013-06-06 10:29:47 <FluffySheap> does the megahash rating count both hashes, or just one of the two?
 727 2013-06-06 10:29:57 <CodeShark> both
 728 2013-06-06 10:30:23 <FluffySheap> ok, thanks
 729 2013-06-06 10:30:36 <CodeShark> one block hash = sha256(sha256(block header))
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 732 2013-06-06 10:31:49 <FluffySheap> I think my hardware comparisons will make more sense now :)
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 736 2013-06-06 10:51:11 <CodeShark> but I believe it is possible to implement sha256(sha256(x)) more efficiently than computing sha256 two separate times
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 741 2013-06-06 10:57:55 <t7> well the second time the input is only 256bits and in memory already ...
 742 2013-06-06 10:57:57 <t7> so maybe
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 753 2013-06-06 11:32:36 <FluffySheap> I think if you wanted to optimize that it would be based on the fact that the second block is mostly zeroes
 754 2013-06-06 11:32:43 Plinker_ is now known as Plinker
 755 2013-06-06 11:32:45 <FluffySheap> but even then I don't know how much you could do due to the mixing
 756 2013-06-06 11:32:53 <FluffySheap> you might save like 10% of the first step
 757 2013-06-06 11:34:02 <sipa> for repeated application, specifically with just the nonce varying, you only need something like 122 sha256 rounds
 758 2013-06-06 11:34:08 <sipa> while naive application needs 192
 759 2013-06-06 11:35:54 <FluffySheap> do current clients reduce the number of rounds by fancy math?
 760 2013-06-06 11:36:13 <FluffySheap> if so... the answer is there
 761 2013-06-06 11:36:13 <FluffySheap> heh
 762 2013-06-06 11:37:21 <CodeShark> I would think exploiting massive parallelism in hardware is a more economic approach than trying to optimize sequential processing in software
 763 2013-06-06 11:37:27 <CodeShark> *economical
 764 2013-06-06 11:38:19 <CodeShark> although the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive :)
 765 2013-06-06 11:38:24 <FluffySheap> yeah I was going tos ay that
 766 2013-06-06 11:38:29 <FluffySheap> anything you do by optimizing the algorithm is free
 767 2013-06-06 11:38:49 <FluffySheap> if you're right that there is a 30% reduction available in math, that would be ... great
 768 2013-06-06 11:38:56 <FluffySheap> especially if the ASICs aren't doing it
 769 2013-06-06 11:38:57 <FluffySheap> heh
 770 2013-06-06 11:39:50 <FluffySheap> however given how little of the existing algorithm is parallelizaable
 771 2013-06-06 11:39:55 <FluffySheap> I'm not sure if 30% savings is possible
 772 2013-06-06 11:40:37 <CodeShark> optimizations of the software could carry other costs, though - costs in synchronization requirements, memory, etc...although I haven't really studied this specific problem sufficiently to give anything other than speculations :p
 773 2013-06-06 11:42:03 agnostic98 has joined
 774 2013-06-06 11:42:04 <FluffySheap> costs in memory are probably a good thing
 775 2013-06-06 11:42:16 <CodeShark> not for someone trying to build cheap hardware
 776 2013-06-06 11:42:30 <FluffySheap> which is why it's a good thing, memory is free for GPUs
 777 2013-06-06 11:42:32 <CodeShark> moreover, memory I
 778 2013-06-06 11:42:49 <CodeShark> moreover, memory I/O is a major bottleneck in modern computer design
 779 2013-06-06 11:43:26 <FluffySheap> sure, but suppose you have an optimized algorithm that requires more memory but less computation
 780 2013-06-06 11:43:34 <FluffySheap> that suits GPUs really well, which have the most memory bandwidth
 781 2013-06-06 11:43:41 <FluffySheap> and is bad for ASICs which have the algorithm fixed
 782 2013-06-06 11:43:49 <FluffySheap> and can't even add memory without a whole new PCB design
 783 2013-06-06 11:43:56 <FluffySheap> it would send them back to the drawing board basically
 784 2013-06-06 11:44:12 <FluffySheap> and while anyone that has an ASIC is glad to have it, wouldn't you say the community is better if GPUs are worthwhile
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 786 2013-06-06 11:45:12 <FluffySheap> sipa, do you have information on the reduced-round algorithm for iterated sha?
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 788 2013-06-06 11:47:11 <FluffySheap> it would be an obvious thing for password cracking so probably mathematicians have looked at it already
 789 2013-06-06 11:48:13 <FluffySheap> http://ballastsec.blogspot.com/2012/07/transferable-state-attack-on-iterated.html
 790 2013-06-06 11:48:16 <FluffySheap> I found this
 791 2013-06-06 11:48:17 <FluffySheap> but I don't understand it yet
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 800 2013-06-06 11:53:09 <CodeShark> this optimization is for piping iterations of sha256, not for applying sha256 to multiple related inputs
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 803 2013-06-06 11:53:46 <FluffySheap> right
 804 2013-06-06 11:54:04 <FluffySheap> that is true, but still he saved 10% on it
 805 2013-06-06 11:55:08 <CodeShark> if you have two inputs that differ in, say, only one bit, you can reuse all the operations up to the point where that bit is used
 806 2013-06-06 11:55:36 <CodeShark> in the transform function in particular
 807 2013-06-06 11:56:02 <FluffySheap> I see you could probably improve the bit-expanding half of the algorithm
 808 2013-06-06 11:56:06 <FluffySheap> but that is the cheap half
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 810 2013-06-06 11:58:25 <FluffySheap> best case, you'd save seven of the 48 rounds of the bit expander, before you would end up with different results
 811 2013-06-06 11:58:52 <FluffySheap> well, no, you might do better in the bit expander
 812 2013-06-06 11:58:59 <sipa> FluffySheap: look at any miner's source
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 814 2013-06-06 11:59:22 <FluffySheap> ah, so the existing miners use it already then
 815 2013-06-06 11:59:38 <FluffySheap> so this is all a moot discussion then, except for my enlightenment :)
 816 2013-06-06 12:00:18 <sipa> FluffySheap: you have no idea how many man-years have been spent on miner efficiency improvements :)
 817 2013-06-06 12:00:51 <FluffySheap> I imagine quite a few
 818 2013-06-06 12:00:53 <FluffySheap> :)
 819 2013-06-06 12:01:30 <sipa> people have _sold_ optimized mining algorithms for hundreds of USD
 820 2013-06-06 12:01:43 <FluffySheap> just for hundreds?
 821 2013-06-06 12:01:51 <CodeShark> yeah, lol
 822 2013-06-06 12:01:56 <sipa> this was two years ago :p
 823 2013-06-06 12:01:57 <FluffySheap> that was a bad trade then :)
 824 2013-06-06 12:02:08 <sipa> when the exchange rate was below <1 USD
 825 2013-06-06 12:02:11 <FluffySheap> ah
 826 2013-06-06 12:02:12 <FluffySheap> still
 827 2013-06-06 12:02:16 <FluffySheap> better to keep it in your pocket
 828 2013-06-06 12:02:46 <FluffySheap> which miner would have the easiest to understand source?
 829 2013-06-06 12:02:57 <CodeShark> mining bitcoin naturally lends itself far more to horizontal scaling than vertical
 830 2013-06-06 12:03:25 <epscy> which is a shame
 831 2013-06-06 12:03:25 <CodeShark> the winner is massive low power parallelism
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 833 2013-06-06 12:04:00 <CodeShark> no matter how clever your algorithms, the gains will be minimal compared to just adding another unit
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 835 2013-06-06 12:04:12 <FluffySheap> I actually speculate that the eventual value of bitcoins will have more to do with hardware cost than energy cost
 836 2013-06-06 12:04:29 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 837 2013-06-06 12:04:40 <sipa> with neither
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 839 2013-06-06 12:04:56 <sipa> it has to do with how people think its usefulness/value will evolve in the future
 840 2013-06-06 12:05:09 <sipa> hardhard and energy costs will be allowed to go up, when exchange rates go up
 841 2013-06-06 12:05:13 <sipa> not the other way around
 842 2013-06-06 12:05:16 <sipa> *hardware
 843 2013-06-06 12:05:20 <FluffySheap> because of changing difficulty, your income is based on how much of the total share of computation you control, so as long as hardware continues to evolve and people are forced to buy new, the amortization of the HW always counts more than the energy
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 845 2013-06-06 12:06:05 <CodeShark> in the limit, mining is break even
 846 2013-06-06 12:06:09 <FluffySheap> perhaps in the long term, the most money to be made is in selling the mining equipment rather than using it
 847 2013-06-06 12:06:11 <CodeShark> in the short term, it can be profitable
 848 2013-06-06 12:06:17 <FluffySheap> which is also similar to real world mining
 849 2013-06-06 12:06:44 <FluffySheap> I have wondered about that too
 850 2013-06-06 12:06:52 <CodeShark> it would be nice if general purpose computing equipment weren't becoming pretty much useless for mining
 851 2013-06-06 12:07:00 <FluffySheap> theoretically, as the mining dries up, most mining income comes from transact fees
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 853 2013-06-06 12:07:03 <FluffySheap> but
 854 2013-06-06 12:07:14 <CodeShark> I think the original intention was that mining would be done on general purpose hardware
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 856 2013-06-06 12:07:23 <CodeShark> but that's becoming less and less attractive
 857 2013-06-06 12:07:27 <FluffySheap> if mining dries up and starts to lose money for everyone then who will bother doing it
 858 2013-06-06 12:07:32 <FluffySheap> and then there is a 51% attack prospect
 859 2013-06-06 12:07:36 <FluffySheap> unless I misunderstand something
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 861 2013-06-06 12:07:48 <CodeShark> if people stop doing it, the difficulty comes back down
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 864 2013-06-06 12:07:55 <CodeShark> and it becomes once again more attractive
 865 2013-06-06 12:08:01 <FluffySheap> right, but the bounty keeps dropping forever
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 867 2013-06-06 12:08:08 <FluffySheap> eventually, all coins are gone
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 869 2013-06-06 12:08:22 <CodeShark> fees will go up
 870 2013-06-06 12:08:41 <FluffySheap> but that depends on coins being spent, rather than hoarded
 871 2013-06-06 12:08:44 <FluffySheap> right?
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 875 2013-06-06 12:10:40 <CodeShark> as long as the transaction fees for bitcoin are competitive with other methods of transmitting value, it will be attractive to people
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 880 2013-06-06 12:11:30 <CodeShark> and if people feel like bitcoin lacks liquidity, I wonder just how much they will want to hoard
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 899 2013-06-06 12:15:31 <FluffySheap> hm, cgminer source for sha2.c looks like the ordinary fips implementation
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 901 2013-06-06 12:15:42 <FluffySheap> oh, maybe they didn't bother with it for cpu implementation
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 906 2013-06-06 12:16:35 <FluffySheap> too bad as it would be easier to understand than the CL
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 910 2013-06-06 12:18:14 <UukGoblin> could err someone fix amphipod plz? :-]
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 917 2013-06-06 12:28:10 <FluffySheap> ah, I see, in cgminer opencl.  14 constant W's, 2 nonce optimized, an odd 17 reduced-complexity and then 31 full-complexity.
 918 2013-06-06 12:31:54 <FluffySheap> but this would only apply to first iteration, right?  second one would need the full version, since first part of it will be all random data, then a short block of zeroes, then what appears to be 48 more bytes of essentially random data.
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 920 2013-06-06 12:40:31 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2651  It appears this needs more work, but what is the likelihood of this approach being accepted?
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 932 2013-06-06 12:58:07 <CodeShark> translation table frameworks should support printf style specifiers and pluralization :)
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 935 2013-06-06 13:00:15 <CodeShark> that's to say, the translation tables should contain all the specifiers
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 948 2013-06-06 13:24:03 <MKCoin> o:
 949 2013-06-06 13:24:04 <MKCoin> test successful
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 952 2013-06-06 13:24:27 <BlueMatt> those are weekly
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1054 2013-06-06 13:41:35 <jgarzik> mornin'
1055 2013-06-06 13:41:45 <CodeShark> hi :)
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1108 2013-06-06 13:54:30 <Vinnie_win_q> dafuq
1109 2013-06-06 13:54:36 <Vinnie_win_q> you two canoodling in here now?
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1113 2013-06-06 13:57:48 <helo> would sacrifice-to-miner motivate users of large mining pools to sabotage assurance contracts?
1114 2013-06-06 13:58:07 <CodeShark> Vinnie_win: what part do you find odd? the fact that it is those particular two? that it's taking place here? or that it's happening now?
1115 2013-06-06 13:58:09 <helo> and could that be a good thing? ;)
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1117 2013-06-06 13:58:39 <Vinnie_win> CodeShark: I was referring to you and Jeff.
1118 2013-06-06 13:59:09 <CodeShark> if canoodling means saying "mornin'" and then disappearing, then yes - I guess Jeff was canoodling :p
1119 2013-06-06 13:59:22 <Vinnie_win> Looks like your relationship has blossomed into a full-blown bromance
1120 2013-06-06 14:00:04 <Vinnie_win> Anyway...good morning
1121 2013-06-06 14:00:17 <CodeShark> morning, eh? no wonder it's getting bright outside
1122 2013-06-06 14:00:25 <CodeShark> I was beginning to wonder
1123 2013-06-06 14:00:55 <CodeShark> oh yeah, it's that whole earth rotation thing
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1135 2013-06-06 14:04:47 <jgarzik> um, ok
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1137 2013-06-06 14:05:25 <TD> helo: ?
1138 2013-06-06 14:05:29 <TD> what do you mean ?
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1143 2013-06-06 14:06:54 <dugo> 15:35 < CodeShark> if canoodling means saying "mornin'" and then disappearing, then yes - I guess Jeff was canoodling :p
1144 2013-06-06 14:07:01 <helo> TD: maybe i need to read more about assurance contracts via bitcoin... but basically, they pledge that A will occur, or the bitcoin they put in a particular place will be forefeit, right?
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1146 2013-06-06 14:07:12 <Vinnie_win> dugo: I think he was referring to the assurance contracts
1147 2013-06-06 14:07:19 <CodeShark> lol
1148 2013-06-06 14:07:27 <TD> no
1149 2013-06-06 14:07:31 <TD> that's not what they do
1150 2013-06-06 14:07:48 <Vinnie_win> Alright this place is dead I'm moving the party to #github
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1152 2013-06-06 14:08:11 <helo> i'm using the wrong term... what was "sacrifice-to-miner" being discussed for?
1153 2013-06-06 14:08:20 <TD> anonymous passports?
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1157 2013-06-06 14:08:35 <TD> you create a provably valuable object that contains a public key, to which you have the private part
1158 2013-06-06 14:08:49 <TD> now you can sign challenges with it. if you misbehave it can be blacklisted.
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1160 2013-06-06 14:08:55 <TD> sort of a self-minted certificate
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1163 2013-06-06 14:09:55 <helo> ahh, it was jeff re: fidelity bonds
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1165 2013-06-06 14:11:58 <helo> oh, the sacrifice happens at the beginning to create the identity
1166 2013-06-06 14:12:11 <TD> yes
1167 2013-06-06 14:12:24 <helo> sorry, got some concepts mixed up
1168 2013-06-06 14:15:38 <jgarzik> helo, Yes, that was me
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1170 2013-06-06 14:15:53 <jgarzik> I've been looking at sacrifice-to-create-decentralized-identity
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1175 2013-06-06 14:16:09 <TD> jgarzik: cool. i'm in discussions with some guys from Tor and the EFF at the moment on that topic actually
1176 2013-06-06 14:16:26 <jgarzik> Our ecosystem needs a decentralized identity system, cryptographically secured.
1177 2013-06-06 14:16:31 <helo> i do like the idea where a company guarantees the security of some data (most directly a private key itself) by sending a bunch of bitcoin to the key. so if a dishonest person has access to the data (including or being the key), the issuer can see (in the blockchain when the bounty is transferred) that the key isn't held securely.
1178 2013-06-06 14:16:32 <TD> jgarzik: the Tor guy doesn't think bitcoin is private enough, he isn't really sold on the idea. he wants some extra layer that uses chaumian tokens, maybe
1179 2013-06-06 14:16:43 iddo has joined
1180 2013-06-06 14:17:00 <TD> jgarzik: i prefer a pure bitcoin approach as there's no need for any additional middlemen, and i feel it's private enough for this and can be made more private later.
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1182 2013-06-06 14:17:10 <jgarzik> Start out with a proof of identity creation, possibly a sacrifice transaction.  ECDSA may prove you created that.
1183 2013-06-06 14:17:13 Maxvalor has joined
1184 2013-06-06 14:17:16 <helo> yeah, provably paying money to create an identity would cut down on scammers in -otc for sure (if such an identity was required for entry)
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1186 2013-06-06 14:17:24 <TD> helo: right
1187 2013-06-06 14:17:26 <jgarzik> Attach key-value pairs, which are other data (PGP signatures) or remote attestations
1188 2013-06-06 14:17:28 <TD> helo: there are lots of uses
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1194 2013-06-06 14:17:58 <TD> jgarzik: well the sacrifice transaction(s) have public keys in them anyway, in the inputs, assuming you sacrifice an address output
1195 2013-06-06 14:18:05 <TD> so it doesn't need to be complicated
1196 2013-06-06 14:18:07 <jgarzik> e.g. Identity Validation Corp, Inc. can check my identity, then digitally sign my identity as being verified to a certain level
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1198 2013-06-06 14:18:32 <jgarzik> then, if you trust Identity Validation Corp and their digital sig, you can trust (to that level) my decentralized id
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1200 2013-06-06 14:18:43 <TD> jgarzik: well, are you talking about the anonymous passports/fidelity bonds/proofs of sacrifices, etc? if so then there's no need for any middlemen
1201 2013-06-06 14:18:52 <TD> jgarzik: or are you talking about a citizen PKI type thing?
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1203 2013-06-06 14:19:27 <jgarzik> TD, I suppose you could call this an anonymous passport.  In my scheme, there is no need for middlemen to manage this identity data.
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1205 2013-06-06 14:19:50 <jgarzik> TD, However, a useful ecosystem of third parties may collaborate to provide digitally signed attestations and services associated with that identity
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1207 2013-06-06 14:19:56 <TD> i see
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1209 2013-06-06 14:20:22 <TD> i think a good v1 feature set would be - app that makes the sacrifices, server app that can check them and query a DNS server that vends blacklists, email RBL style.
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1212 2013-06-06 14:20:54 <TD> + an http/browser extension to make it all transparent, and then some patches to mediawiki, wordpress, etc so you can post comments via Tor with your self-made decentralised identity
1213 2013-06-06 14:21:03 <TD> it's a fairly big project, but nothing complicated
1214 2013-06-06 14:21:13 <jgarzik> You can KYC with org A, then use KYC-requiring orgs B and C, without giving out identity to everyone (assuming they trust A's digital signature and underlying identity services)
1215 2013-06-06 14:21:28 <jgarzik> but yes, this is self-made decentralized identity
1216 2013-06-06 14:21:37 <jgarzik> it _must_ be, otherwise there's no privacy or control
1217 2013-06-06 14:21:39 <TD> if it's self made and decentralised, there's no KYC
1218 2013-06-06 14:21:50 <TD> i have a feeling we're discussing two different system simultaneously :)
1219 2013-06-06 14:22:06 <jgarzik> TD, No, KYC is an easy opt-in system, if this framework exists
1220 2013-06-06 14:22:22 <jgarzik> TD, KYC can be opt-in and digitally provable.
1221 2013-06-06 14:22:45 <jgarzik> TD, but as with any decentralized identity, you don't have to use that id for all websites
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1224 2013-06-06 14:24:52 <helo> it would take quite a bit of confidence that the destruction of bitcoin is absolutely benign... i think i'm convinced that it is, but it seems to be a common point of contention
1225 2013-06-06 14:25:23 <TD> helo: you don't need to destroy bitcoins for the proof-of-sacrifice case. you can sacrifice the coins to miner fees
1226 2013-06-06 14:25:28 <TD> then they recirculate into the economy
1227 2013-06-06 14:25:37 <helo> how does one create such a transaction?
1228 2013-06-06 14:25:45 <TD> the output value fields are all zeros
1229 2013-06-06 14:25:53 <helo> oh of course
1230 2013-06-06 14:26:04 <TD> you then provide the sacrifice transaction, along with the input transactions, and the merkle branches proving acceptance of all of them
1231 2013-06-06 14:26:22 <TD> this can be statically checked with only a copy of the block headers (SPV security). so it's lightweight enough to run on almost any server.
1232 2013-06-06 14:26:36 <helo> very nice
1233 2013-06-06 14:27:28 <jgarzik> yep
1234 2013-06-06 14:27:47 <TD> good morning gavinandresen
1235 2013-06-06 14:27:53 <gavinandresen> good morning
1236 2013-06-06 14:28:59 <jgarzik> Is anyone else having trouble getting HEAD to build and run Qt GUI?
1237 2013-06-06 14:29:06 <jgarzik> Diapolo reported that
1238 2013-06-06 14:31:37 <gavinandresen> I'm gitian-building the paymentrequest branch this morning, which I rebased onto HEAD yesterday, I'll let you know if I run into issues
1239 2013-06-06 14:31:54 <kfreds> I just think it's so neat that so many people are literally working full time on making Bitcoin (the system, not the services around it) better.
1240 2013-06-06 14:32:15 <kfreds> That's awesome. You guys, the developers are awesome. Thank you :)
1241 2013-06-06 14:32:24 topace_ has quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
1242 2013-06-06 14:33:04 <kfreds> Just wanted to say that since I've been using it for a long time, and haven't thanked people yet :)
1243 2013-06-06 14:36:13 <helo> built fine from git pull; make on ubuntu 13.04
1244 2013-06-06 14:36:32 <helo> (and appeared to run fine)
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1247 2013-06-06 14:37:46 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, great
1248 2013-06-06 14:38:15 <TD> kfreds: you're welcome
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1253 2013-06-06 14:42:37 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: No problem gitian-building for windows...
1254 2013-06-06 14:42:47 <jgarzik> grau wrote, on trolltalk: Block 227930 enforces V2 check, agree?
1255 2013-06-06 14:42:50 * jgarzik forgets
1256 2013-06-06 14:43:08 * jgarzik would have to rescan the block chain
1257 2013-06-06 14:45:22 <grau> jgarzik: I missed it earlier and do not know if that event was published. Not too important since it would have caused a fork long ago if was in mismatch, just curious.
1258 2013-06-06 14:45:41 <jgarzik> grau, ISTR we added a checkpoint
1259 2013-06-06 14:45:50 <grau> I mean a fork beetwen Satoshi and BOP certainly
1260 2013-06-06 14:46:30 <msvb-lab> Hello folks, happy to see that Bitcoin is using gitian.
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1285 2013-06-06 15:26:13 <wallet43> if you had a half-node which prunes data would the relevant data be only chainstate + blockheader?
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1308 2013-06-06 15:58:42 <EvilPete> jgarzik: 227930 matches my recollection but its getting fuzzy now.
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1310 2013-06-06 15:58:59 <jgarzik> ack
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1312 2013-06-06 16:02:08 <EvilPete> I remember a checkpoint was added after the 8.x -> 7.x miner rollback trees reorganized
1313 2013-06-06 16:02:31 ycfgc has joined
1314 2013-06-06 16:02:40 <EvilPete> 0.8 -> 0.7 close enough
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1327 2013-06-06 16:10:05 <helo> i suppose the perceived value of an assurance contract could be clouded by deflation
1328 2013-06-06 16:10:47 <helo> i.e. if someone sacrificed 10btc on an identity two years ago, today that identity would seem highly reliable
1329 2013-06-06 16:12:35 <helo> but it would be equivalent to a 1btc identity today
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1331 2013-06-06 16:14:26 <helo> nanotube: bah, i keep using the wrong term... not "assurance contracts"... but "fidelity bonds"
1332 2013-06-06 16:14:35 <helo> argh, wrong chan
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1339 2013-06-06 16:20:01 <cjsw3> if i create a wallet with a keypool of 1000. what would cause a new address to be generated?
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1341 2013-06-06 16:20:21 <lianj> cjsw3: if it runs out
1342 2013-06-06 16:20:26 <cjsw3> is there some form of guarantee one won't be created until ~1000 transactions?
1343 2013-06-06 16:21:32 <shesek> I think it also makes sure it always has some extra ones, doesn't it?
1344 2013-06-06 16:21:40 agnostic98 has joined
1345 2013-06-06 16:21:58 <cjsw3> yeah i'm thinking about backup strategies
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1347 2013-06-06 16:22:53 <helo> cjsw3: a new address is generated every time an address is used in the pool, regardless of keypool size
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1351 2013-06-06 16:23:29 <cjsw3> helo: eek. that's what i was afraid of
1352 2013-06-06 16:23:37 <gavinandresen> Somebody help me understand Linux packaging… I need a statically compiled libprotobuf for the paymentrequest gitian linux build, and it looks like http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/libprotobuf-dev isn't giving it to me
1353 2013-06-06 16:23:45 <rdponticelli_> cjsw3: You can use -keypool=0 to avoid it
1354 2013-06-06 16:24:11 <helo> cjsw3: this makes backup strategies easy though... you just have to back up every 1000 transactions+addresses
1355 2013-06-06 16:24:24 rdponticelli_ is now known as rdponticelli
1356 2013-06-06 16:24:51 <helo> cjsw3: as after 999 transactions+addresses, the 1000 addresses sitting in your keypool haven't ever been used for anything, so don't need to be backed up
1357 2013-06-06 16:24:59 <cjsw3> helo: well not if you mistakenly use one of the addresses created since the last backup? or they are always accessed FIFO?
1358 2013-06-06 16:25:09 <helo> yes, FIFO
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1365 2013-06-06 16:28:51 <rdponticelli> gavinandresen: Are you sure it isn't there?
1366 2013-06-06 16:29:12 <rdponticelli> It should be...
1367 2013-06-06 16:29:17 <gavinandresen> rdponticelli: I've got a /usr/lib/libprotobuf.la             /usr/lib/libprotobuf.so  … but no .a
1368 2013-06-06 16:29:26 <gavinandresen> (is .la symbols for the .so ?)
1369 2013-06-06 16:30:03 peetaur2 has joined
1370 2013-06-06 16:30:05 <rdponticelli> Try dpkg-query -S libprotobuf.a
1371 2013-06-06 16:30:16 <rdponticelli> But it should be there...
1372 2013-06-06 16:30:18 shesek has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1373 2013-06-06 16:30:22 <gavinandresen> dpkg: *libprotobuf.a* not found.
1374 2013-06-06 16:30:30 <rdponticelli> :/
1375 2013-06-06 16:30:46 AtashiCon has joined
1376 2013-06-06 16:31:22 <rdponticelli> I have it there in debian testing...
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1378 2013-06-06 16:32:18 <petertodd> helo: regarding fidelity bonds and the exchange rate, it would be really useful if exchanges, particularly mt. gox, digitally signed price information
1379 2013-06-06 16:32:27 <gavinandresen> sounds like I'll have to add it as an explicit dependency, and build it myself.
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1386 2013-06-06 16:33:37 <petertodd> helo: oh, and I should add, also timestamped those signatures and keys
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1388 2013-06-06 16:36:16 <rdponticelli> gavinandresen: According to the debian package system, it should be there: http://packages.debian.org/search?suite=squeeze&searchon=contents&keywords=libprotobuf.a
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1390 2013-06-06 16:37:27 <gavinandresen> rdponticelli: gitian doesn't use squeeze, it uses… uh… that older one. 10.04, I think
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1392 2013-06-06 16:38:33 <helo> petertodd: sounds reasonable... thanks
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1399 2013-06-06 16:47:17 <ryan-c> Anyone know of a web service that will give me the transactions where A given address was an input?
1400 2013-06-06 16:47:40 <beethoven8201> blockchain ?
1401 2013-06-06 16:47:46 <beethoven8201> .info
1402 2013-06-06 16:47:49 <beethoven8201> you can use their api
1403 2013-06-06 16:47:57 <ryan-c> which api?
1404 2013-06-06 16:48:09 <ryan-c> i didn't see anything relevant at blockchain.info/q
1405 2013-06-06 16:48:10 <nsh> ;;google blockchain.info API guide
1406 2013-06-06 16:48:11 <beethoven8201> google blockchain api
1407 2013-06-06 16:48:11 <gribble> Bitcoin Developer API's - Blockchain.info: <http://blockchain.info/api>; Bitcoin JSON RPC API - blockchain.info: <http://blockchain.info/api/json_rpc_api>; Block Explorer API - blockchain.info: <http://blockchain.info/api/blockchain_api>
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1410 2013-06-06 16:51:35 <ryan-c> http://blockchain.info/q/pubkeyaddr < this is actually what I wanted
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1413 2013-06-06 16:54:43 <Zoop_> a one?
1414 2013-06-06 16:54:56 <ryan-c> hm?
1415 2013-06-06 16:55:09 <Zoop_> that link only shows me '1'
1416 2013-06-06 16:55:16 <Zoop_> on the top left corner
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1418 2013-06-06 16:55:50 <Zoop_> source code only shows '1' as well
1419 2013-06-06 16:56:05 <ryan-c> Zoop_: http://blockchain.info/q/pubkeyaddr/1AddressGoesHere
1420 2013-06-06 16:56:12 <Zoop_> oh
1421 2013-06-06 16:56:17 <Zoop_> i get it now
1422 2013-06-06 16:56:19 <Zoop_> -__-
1423 2013-06-06 16:56:23 <ryan-c> Given an address that has spent, it returns the public key
1424 2013-06-06 16:56:37 <Zoop_> thought it was some statistics about pubkey or wtv
1425 2013-06-06 16:56:48 <ryan-c> on blockexplorere, you can do this http://blockexplorer.com/q/mytransactions/, but then you have to parse it
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1442 2013-06-06 17:15:18 <EvilPete> Wow, I hadn't realized just how much of a difference a SSD vs HDD made to the bitcoin-qt client on OSX.  Subjectively it feels like between 1 and 2 orders of magnitude.  eg: startup validation is seconds vs several minutes.
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1540 2013-06-06 18:37:12 <gonffen> ;;bc
1541 2013-06-06 18:37:12 <gribble> Error: "bc" is not a valid command.
1542 2013-06-06 18:37:16 <gonffen> ;;help
1543 2013-06-06 18:37:17 <gribble> The bot responds when you start a line with the ! character. A good starting point for exploring the bot is the !facts command. You can also visit the bot's website for a list of help topics and documentation: http://gribble.sourceforge.net/
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1548 2013-06-06 18:45:13 enigmuriatic1 has joined
1549 2013-06-06 18:45:49 <enigmuriatic1> is there any easier way to learn the blockchain protocol specifications than the bitcoin.it page?
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1561 2013-06-06 18:57:41 <maaku_> enigmuriatic1: the source code
1562 2013-06-06 18:57:58 <enigmuriatic1> that sounds quite a bit harder, maaku_
1563 2013-06-06 18:58:00 <enigmuriatic1> :P
1564 2013-06-06 19:00:23 <jgarzik> No easy way, at least until somebody writes Bitcoin, The Book
1565 2013-06-06 19:00:30 <jgarzik> surprised nobody is working on a book yet
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1575 2013-06-06 19:09:25 <jgarzik> sipa, gmaxwell, do we accept blocks at a height lower (closer to genesis block) than the latest checkpoint?
1576 2013-06-06 19:10:27 <gmaxwell> There are tests on the timestamp the constrain this, but not height, at least not yet. AFAIR.
1577 2013-06-06 19:10:42 <gmaxwell> (we don't know height until blocks are connected)
1578 2013-06-06 19:11:00 <jgarzik> Trying to parse another hyperventilating post from Sergio, http://bitslog.wordpress.com/2013/05/31/more-privacy-vulnerabilities-in-bitcoin/
1579 2013-06-06 19:11:14 <jgarzik> It does seem like the fingerprint-block method would work
1580 2013-06-06 19:11:57 <gmaxwell> The fingerprint shouldn't work unless the block was accepted, connected, and part of the best chain at some point.
1581 2013-06-06 19:12:08 <gmaxwell> e.g. catching it during syncup.
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1583 2013-06-06 19:12:22 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, we don't serve orphans?
1584 2013-06-06 19:12:36 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, if the specific hash is requested?
1585 2013-06-06 19:12:56 <jgarzik> I thought we did.
1586 2013-06-06 19:13:32 <gmaxwell> I think we serve extinct forks but not never-connected orphans. I'm not sure of this... this should get tested. If we do, we can at least make it not serve blocks which were never on the best chain.
1587 2013-06-06 19:13:49 * jgarzik nods
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1589 2013-06-06 19:14:02 <gmaxwell> (I do think we should to continue to serve extinct forks, because a pruned neighbor might need to them to help a reorg)
1590 2013-06-06 19:14:46 <gmaxwell> (though perhaps we can do that for only extinct forks within the top 2016 or so)
1591 2013-06-06 19:16:55 NimeshNeema has joined
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1593 2013-06-06 19:17:23 <TheUni> wumpus: ping
1594 2013-06-06 19:17:34 <wumpus> pong
1595 2013-06-06 19:18:38 <TheUni> wumpus: i thought on the qt-creator thing a bit last night. what if i added a separate .pro that only contained references to the visuals, so that they could be edited in the ui?
1596 2013-06-06 19:18:56 <TheUni> so if you have the .am and the .pro opened at the same time, you essentially have the same functionality as before
1597 2013-06-06 19:19:11 <wumpus> I'd prefer if you just keep a .pro with all the files
1598 2013-06-06 19:19:18 <wumpus> I'll maintain it myself I promise :p
1599 2013-06-06 19:19:42 <TheUni> well if you want to maintain it you can do whatever you want with it :)
1600 2013-06-06 19:20:14 <TheUni> i'm just trying to come up with some way where the project files/indexes don't have to be sync'd up
1601 2013-06-06 19:20:39 <wumpus> you'd end up with a cmake-like system
1602 2013-06-06 19:21:05 <TheUni> hmm?
1603 2013-06-06 19:21:06 <wumpus> cmake generates native build files for msvs, xcode, etc
1604 2013-06-06 19:21:22 <TheUni> nah, i'm not speaking on anywhere near that level
1605 2013-06-06 19:21:24 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, well the issue is that it would be easy to create a valid fork for an early block
1606 2013-06-06 19:21:52 <jgarzik> low PoW
1607 2013-06-06 19:22:15 <jgarzik> A before-last-checkpoint rule is a bit of a hack, but would prevent at least low-PoW valid fork fingerprint blocks.
1608 2013-06-06 19:22:35 <TheUni> wumpus: well, i suppose that answers my question then. if the automake stuff was generally agreed upon, you're willing to be flexible/creative with qt-creator?
1609 2013-06-06 19:22:52 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: we can't tell the height without connecting it.
1610 2013-06-06 19:23:26 <wumpus> TheUni: how do you mean flexible? you should really focus on getting it to work and for the average linux distribution that just wants to do ./configure && make, not on my and diapolo's niche use case :P
1611 2013-06-06 19:23:52 <wumpus> TheUni: we'll just keep a manually maintained .pro in parallel for now and that's good enough
1612 2013-06-06 19:24:18 <TheUni> wumpus: ok, well that part is done. but i also want to be sure that i'm not changing anything that will block merging/adoption, or anything that will slow dev-time for primary devs
1613 2013-06-06 19:25:54 FredEE has quit (Quit: FredEE)
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1615 2013-06-06 19:27:19 <wumpus> TheUni: I understand, but don't worry too much, almost anything is an improvement from the current state :)
1616 2013-06-06 19:27:25 yano has joined
1617 2013-06-06 19:27:51 <TheUni> roger, thanks
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1624 2013-06-06 19:33:09 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, yes and no.  We can notice and fail the connect atomically
1625 2013-06-06 19:34:03 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, You can see it is on a side chain, and you know the prevblock height
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1627 2013-06-06 19:34:24 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, this does not cover all cases?  but it does cover the easy attack
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1631 2013-06-06 19:38:24 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: apologies for the unnecessary resend; troubleshooting a bug for SourceForge
1632 2013-06-06 19:38:25 vigilyn3 has left ("Leaving")
1633 2013-06-06 19:44:14 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: If that hyperventilating user built a pull request which does modify these behaviours, would they have a chance of being accepted?
1634 2013-06-06 19:44:36 Titankiller has joined
1635 2013-06-06 19:44:55 <midnightmagic> it seems to me that he's annoyed because someone else isn't doing the work for him
1636 2013-06-06 19:45:02 <jgarzik> midnightmagic, absolutely
1637 2013-06-06 19:45:14 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: I thought so. Thanks.
1638 2013-06-06 19:45:18 <jgarzik> midnightmagic, Just has to meet the standard, high bar of "doesn't break current users" etc.
1639 2013-06-06 19:45:27 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: makes sense.
1640 2013-06-06 19:50:12 <sipa> 20:49:45 < gmaxwell> I think we serve extinct forks but not never-connected orphans. I'm not sure of this... this should get tested. If we do, we can at least make it not serve blocks which were never on the  best chain <- correct
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1647 2013-06-06 20:00:37 maraoz has joined
1648 2013-06-06 20:01:21 <maraoz> question: if you have a bitcoin transaction with two inputs and two outputs, can you still trace which of the receiving addresses has which coins?
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1653 2013-06-06 20:06:09 <nsh> maraoz, amount in equals amount out
1654 2013-06-06 20:06:13 <nsh> the rest is subjective
1655 2013-06-06 20:07:41 Jackneill has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1656 2013-06-06 20:09:57 <nsh> (within a transaction bitcoins are perfectly fungible)
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1663 2013-06-06 20:20:25 <maraoz> nsh, thanks! then I don't understand how colored coins work. do you know about that?
1664 2013-06-06 20:20:38 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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1666 2013-06-06 20:25:32 <nsh> maraoz, i haven't gone through the proposal so i'm not sure. at a guess, coloured coins would be created in special transactions and not be used in transactions that mix different coloured coins
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1669 2013-06-06 20:29:46 <jgarzik> maraoz, in general, no
1670 2013-06-06 20:29:54 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1671 2013-06-06 20:30:14 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1672 2013-06-06 20:30:19 <jgarzik> maraoz, But some things may defeat that general answer:  rules for colored coins, which, if followed, intentionally make it easy to trace
1673 2013-06-06 20:31:10 <nsh> or just sum the RGB values
1674 2013-06-06 20:31:20 <nsh> ;)
1675 2013-06-06 20:32:29 Thepok has joined
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1677 2013-06-06 20:35:51 <mad7scientist> The rc3 client does not mine well
1678 2013-06-06 20:35:54 conv3rsion has joined
1679 2013-06-06 20:35:56 <mad7scientist> My miners keep timing out
1680 2013-06-06 20:36:10 <mad7scientist> and the 0.8.1 client has the memory issue
1681 2013-06-06 20:36:24 <mad7scientist> Problems communicating with bitcoin RPC
1682 2013-06-06 20:36:25 <mad7scientist> Problems communicating with bitcoin RPC
1683 2013-06-06 20:36:26 <mad7scientist> Problems communicating with bitcoin RPC
1684 2013-06-06 20:36:31 <mad7scientist> and on and on and on
1685 2013-06-06 20:36:37 <mad7scientist> but it like 75% works
1686 2013-06-06 20:36:46 <jgarzik> mad7scientist, You are solo mining directly to bitcoind?
1687 2013-06-06 20:36:47 phebus has quit (Quit: POKE 1,0)
1688 2013-06-06 20:37:14 <mad7scientist> to bitcoin-qt yes
1689 2013-06-06 20:37:22 <mad7scientist> Why does it need 550MB of resident memory
1690 2013-06-06 20:37:41 phebus has joined
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1694 2013-06-06 20:42:15 bitexchanger has joined
1695 2013-06-06 20:42:28 <bitexchanger> How long roughly does it take for a transaction sent with no fee to show in the blockchain ?
1696 2013-06-06 20:43:31 <jgarzik> bitexchanger, random.  depends on current block size settings at the miner who mines the next block
1697 2013-06-06 20:44:15 phebus has quit (Quit: POKE 1,0)
1698 2013-06-06 20:44:28 <bitexchanger> but once its sent, can i close the bitcoin client even though the transaction isnt showing in blockchain yet?
1699 2013-06-06 20:45:17 <sipa> did the receiver get it?
1700 2013-06-06 20:45:23 <sipa> if so, probably yes
1701 2013-06-06 20:45:27 <sipa> if no, probably no
1702 2013-06-06 20:45:50 <bitexchanger> no the receiver hasn't received it yet
1703 2013-06-06 20:46:01 <bitexchanger> the guy sent it and closed his client immediately
1704 2013-06-06 20:46:04 <bitexchanger> then opened it back up
1705 2013-06-06 20:46:19 <bitexchanger> but its still not showing in blockchain.info for 15 minutes now
1706 2013-06-06 20:46:29 <sipa> then he should keep it open
1707 2013-06-06 20:46:55 <bitexchanger> he said his blockchain is still updating and its been quite a while but still not showing in blockchain.info
1708 2013-06-06 20:47:02 <bitexchanger> do bigger amounts take longer ?
1709 2013-06-06 20:47:10 <sipa> no
1710 2013-06-06 20:47:37 <bitexchanger> any risk that the coins are lost since he closed his client immediately after sending the coins?
1711 2013-06-06 20:47:46 <sipa> no
1712 2013-06-06 20:48:04 <bitexchanger> for peace of mind
1713 2013-06-06 20:48:09 <bitexchanger> what is the general time fram
1714 2013-06-06 20:48:11 <bitexchanger> frame*
1715 2013-06-06 20:48:23 <bitexchanger> like 1 min up to a few hours can be normal for it to show in blockchain ?
1716 2013-06-06 20:48:23 mad7scientist is now known as Mad7Scientist
1717 2013-06-06 20:48:27 <rumpler> gavinandresen: So I have QT running, but when I click the Click to pay link, it tried to open a new instance and throws a pile of exceptions
1718 2013-06-06 20:48:39 <jgarzik> bitexchanger, could be hours
1719 2013-06-06 20:48:47 <sipa> bitexchanger: by 'blockchain' do you mean "the blockchain" or "blockchain.info" ?
1720 2013-06-06 20:48:55 <bitexchanger> blockchain.info
1721 2013-06-06 20:49:07 phebus has joined
1722 2013-06-06 20:49:15 <gavinandresen> rumpler: what version of Windows ?
1723 2013-06-06 20:49:18 <bitexchanger> but the blockchain as well
1724 2013-06-06 20:49:30 <rumpler> gavinandresen: 7, x64
1725 2013-06-06 20:49:34 chorao has joined
1726 2013-06-06 20:50:03 <gavinandresen> rumpler: hmm, thanks.
1727 2013-06-06 20:50:11 <sipa> bitexchanger: if his client isn't synced, there's a chance the transaction is (accidentally) a double spend (as he doesn't know the inputs are already used)
1728 2013-06-06 20:50:24 <sipa> bitexchanger: in which case the transaction won't be relayed or mined
1729 2013-06-06 20:50:35 <bitexchanger> So what is the fix for that?
1730 2013-06-06 20:50:40 <bitexchanger> since it has already been deducted
1731 2013-06-06 20:50:48 <bitexchanger> from his balance
1732 2013-06-06 20:50:56 <sipa> well if that's the case, his client is just confused
1733 2013-06-06 20:51:13 <sipa> in any case, just wait until the client is synced first
1734 2013-06-06 20:51:25 <sipa> if an hour after that it hasn't worked out, come back
1735 2013-06-06 20:51:33 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1736 2013-06-06 20:52:28 <Mad7Scientist> I don't get what happens to spent coins which are subtracted from your wallet but aren't yet in the block chain
1737 2013-06-06 20:52:35 <Mad7Scientist> they are in no man's land
1738 2013-06-06 20:52:54 <Mad7Scientist> but you can't double spend them
1739 2013-06-06 20:52:57 <sipa> the wallet is just wrong, in that case
1740 2013-06-06 20:53:04 <sipa> restore a backup, and the funds will be back
1741 2013-06-06 20:53:07 <Mad7Scientist> even if they haven't been accepted for a day
1742 2013-06-06 20:53:14 <Mad7Scientist> there should be a double spend option
1743 2013-06-06 20:53:18 <Mad7Scientist> to override this
1744 2013-06-06 20:53:23 <sipa> that won't help
1745 2013-06-06 20:53:25 <Mad7Scientist> what if you don't have a backup
1746 2013-06-06 20:53:30 <sipa> there's other ways
1747 2013-06-06 20:53:38 <Mad7Scientist> it would allow you to respend the coins which never actually got accepted
1748 2013-06-06 20:53:57 <sipa> how about fixing the system so it realizes a transaction isn't accepted?
1749 2013-06-06 20:54:06 <sipa> instead of requiring the user to hack around it
1750 2013-06-06 20:54:14 <Mad7Scientist> like after 20 blocks go by and the coins still aren't accepted
1751 2013-06-06 20:54:19 <Mad7Scientist> it can restore the wallet value
1752 2013-06-06 20:54:28 <sipa> something like that, yes
1753 2013-06-06 20:54:47 <Mad7Scientist> a restore unaccepted coins option would be nice
1754 2013-06-06 20:54:50 <bitexchanger> how reliable is blockchain.info
1755 2013-06-06 20:54:51 <sipa> but it could just literally detect "hey, this transaction conflicts with the block chain, i'll go ignore it"
1756 2013-06-06 20:54:53 tyn has joined
1757 2013-06-06 20:54:54 <Mad7Scientist> so the user would still have to click it
1758 2013-06-06 20:54:55 <sipa> bitexchanger: not
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1760 2013-06-06 20:55:14 <sipa> Mad7Scientist: but anyway, no evidence of all that; please just wait
1761 2013-06-06 20:55:28 <sytse> wtf @ 'colored coins'
1762 2013-06-06 20:55:35 * sytse feels discriminated against, as a white
1763 2013-06-06 20:56:02 <sipa> we'll call them 'slave coins', better?
1764 2013-06-06 20:56:37 <sytse> yep.
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1766 2013-06-06 20:57:08 <sytse> segregation coins
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1773 2013-06-06 21:04:01 <Mad7Scientist> downgrade? upgrade?
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1782 2013-06-06 21:15:01 root2 is now known as OTCTipBot
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1784 2013-06-06 21:18:17 <pierce> testing the new payment request feature: the bitcoin URI seems to be failing to recognize a running qt client, tested from recent chromium and firefox in ubuntu 13.04
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1786 2013-06-06 21:19:25 <pierce> clicking on the URI launches a new client, likely because of testnet URI isn't locking the same part of the .bitcoin directory
1787 2013-06-06 21:19:43 <pierce> *testnet UI
1788 2013-06-06 21:21:13 <pierce> actually, when the normal client is already running, and the URI is clicked, it still says that it can't run because the .bitcoin directory is locked
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1794 2013-06-06 21:26:30 <JStoker>  http://bugs.quassel-irc.org/projects/quassel-irc/wiki/Doc_quassel_protocols
1795 2013-06-06 21:26:33 <JStoker>  http://bugs.quassel-irc.org/projects/quassel-irc/wiki/Doc_quassel_protocols
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1801 2013-06-06 21:30:16 <gavinandresen> rumpler pierce: thanks, hold off on more testing for now, I'll reproduce and fix...
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1860 2013-06-06 22:36:58 <Luke-Jr> so satoshi-is-infallible has reached the dev ML :/
1861 2013-06-06 22:37:18 <warren> Luke-Jr: how dare anyone question his holiness?
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1864 2013-06-06 22:38:50 <nsh> Luke-Jr, what's the contention?
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1866 2013-06-06 22:39:04 <nsh> people want to change something that satoshi designed in?
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1869 2013-06-06 22:40:03 <Luke-Jr> nsh: no, someone is taking an adhoc compliment in favour of a simple suggestion, and inferring that alone justifies doing it as originally proposed
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1873 2013-06-06 22:41:38 <_W_> Does this zerocoin everyone is talking about really need a protocol change? The way I understood it was that the technologies involved could work just fine in a parallel network of supporting clients
1874 2013-06-06 22:41:52 Heimdallr has joined
1875 2013-06-06 22:42:07 <_W_> granted, I don't know the cryptography involved in detail
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1878 2013-06-06 22:42:49 <nsh> _W_, more data has to be stored, somewhere
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1880 2013-06-06 22:43:19 <nsh> to maintain the trust-minimal and decentralised nature of bitcoin, it would have to be stored in the blockchain or some equivalent solution
1881 2013-06-06 22:43:31 <nsh> this has repercussions for scalability
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1936 2013-06-06 23:12:30 <CodeShark> yet he had no problem using OpenSSL?!?!?
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1938 2013-06-06 23:13:04 <Luke-Jr> melvster: LOL, Satoshi's code is far more obfuscated
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1941 2013-06-06 23:13:21 <Luke-Jr> and while I agree protobuf's kinda messy, the actual protocol seems simple to implement safely
1942 2013-06-06 23:13:47 <melvster> time will tell ... what we do know is that no one has cracked satoshi's work yet
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1944 2013-06-06 23:14:00 <CodeShark> it was cracked
1945 2013-06-06 23:14:02 <CodeShark> and fixed
1946 2013-06-06 23:14:08 <melvster> true
1947 2013-06-06 23:14:08 <nsh> CodeShark
1948 2013-06-06 23:14:13 <CodeShark> no?
1949 2013-06-06 23:14:13 <midnightmagic> I didn't find it obfuscated. I was able to read satoshi's code more easily than the current codebase. (Even though I  of course didn't understand most of the concepts underneath it.)
1950 2013-06-06 23:14:31 <melvster> it's common for tight coding to look obfuscated
1951 2013-06-06 23:14:32 <CodeShark> wasn't there a bug early on that allowed you to spend other people's coins?
1952 2013-06-06 23:14:33 cypher_ has joined
1953 2013-06-06 23:14:34 <nsh> trusting openssl is a pretty big part of being on the internet
1954 2013-06-06 23:14:42 <nsh> i don't think it was a massive leap of faith
1955 2013-06-06 23:14:44 <melvster> it often comes from C / C++ programmers with an assembler background
1956 2013-06-06 23:14:49 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: the serialization?
1957 2013-06-06 23:15:00 setkeh has joined
1958 2013-06-06 23:15:46 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: The structure of the whole. Finding and manually tracing code execution paths was much easier in Satoshi's code, for me.
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1960 2013-06-06 23:15:52 <CodeShark> by trusting OpenSSL, you're making undocumented features of OpenSSL unofficial parts of the protocol
1961 2013-06-06 23:16:08 <CodeShark> such as nonstandard encodings
1962 2013-06-06 23:16:17 <melvster> another one of his comments: 'I like to keep code compact so you can see more code on the screen at once.'
1963 2013-06-06 23:16:21 <melvster> :D :D
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1965 2013-06-06 23:17:28 <CodeShark> OpenSSL actually has far more undocumented behaviors than protocol buffers
1966 2013-06-06 23:20:23 <dugo> documenting is hard
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1970 2013-06-06 23:21:32 <CodeShark> point is I think it's a little strange to justify not using protocol buffers on those grounds but then using openssl
1971 2013-06-06 23:22:03 <CodeShark> without even enforcing canonical encodings on its inputs
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1973 2013-06-06 23:22:16 <midnightmagic> meh. Just one guy.
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1975 2013-06-06 23:23:40 <nsh> midnightmagic, it's not necessarily a reflection on the aptitude of satoshi (neither which i dispute) -- single-author code is generally more likely to facilitate comprehension than multi-author code
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