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 116 2013-06-07 02:55:03 [\\\] is now known as pirateat40
 117 2013-06-07 02:56:12 pirateat40 is now known as [\\\]
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 123 2013-06-07 03:06:02 JZavala has joined
 124 2013-06-07 03:14:10 <shesek> can Bitcoin's public/private keys be used for regular asymmetric message encryption?
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 127 2013-06-07 03:22:01 agnostic98 has joined
 128 2013-06-07 03:23:37 macboz has joined
 129 2013-06-07 03:24:07 <zeusa1mighty> So maybe this is the wrong place, but I'm curious where Avalon's announcment of 10k chip buys was and what people think about the whole situation; They've got quite a few group buys buying chips and still haven't delivered all of the Avalon miners they've already sold.  Why are so many jumping on the Avalon chip bandwagon without more vetting?
 130 2013-06-07 03:24:09 fanquake has joined
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 133 2013-06-07 03:25:56 <Luke-Jr> shesek: no
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 140 2013-06-07 03:41:15 <shesek> Luke-Jr, thanks
 141 2013-06-07 03:41:38 <Luke-Jr> shesek: ECDSA only does signatures/verification, not encryption
 142 2013-06-07 03:41:42 macboz has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 143 2013-06-07 03:42:08 <shesek> I see.
 144 2013-06-07 03:42:15 <shesek> is there a standard prefix for public keys?
 145 2013-06-07 03:42:19 wallet43 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 146 2013-06-07 03:42:20 <shesek> that is, the non-hashed public keys
 147 2013-06-07 03:42:33 <Luke-Jr> shesek: AFAIK they look entirely random
 148 2013-06-07 03:43:30 <shesek> I mean the version byte
 149 2013-06-07 03:43:37 <shesek> it seems like https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/List_of_address_prefixes doesn't mention it
 150 2013-06-07 03:43:41 <Luke-Jr> there is no encoding for raw public keys
 151 2013-06-07 03:43:53 <shesek> and brainwallet/bitaddress use the hex representation
 152 2013-06-07 03:43:59 <Luke-Jr> brainwallet = bad idea
 153 2013-06-07 03:44:06 mE\Ta has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 154 2013-06-07 03:44:21 <shesek> you mean the concept or the website?
 155 2013-06-07 03:44:45 <Luke-Jr> concept
 156 2013-06-07 03:45:16 <Corndawg> I wonder if it's possible to build into the protocol a doublespend/transaction ratio for each bitcoin address
 157 2013-06-07 03:45:31 <Luke-Jr> any passphrase created by a human will be easily cracked by a computer
 158 2013-06-07 03:45:38 <Luke-Jr> Corndawg: it'd be useless
 159 2013-06-07 03:45:39 Bohren has joined
 160 2013-06-07 03:45:47 <Corndawg> so a merchant could accept 0 confirms from addresses with so many transactions AND over a certain ratio
 161 2013-06-07 03:45:47 <Luke-Jr> Corndawg: addresses are only good for 1 transaction
 162 2013-06-07 03:46:02 <Luke-Jr> there are no such thing as "from addresses"
 163 2013-06-07 03:46:09 <Luke-Jr> bitcoin transactions only have destination addresses, not source
 164 2013-06-07 03:46:23 Bohren has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 165 2013-06-07 03:46:30 <Corndawg> hmm... whats then thing on the left side of blockchain.info
 166 2013-06-07 03:46:42 <Luke-Jr> misinformation, ignore it
 167 2013-06-07 03:46:46 <Corndawg> hmm
 168 2013-06-07 03:46:52 <Luke-Jr> blockchain.info = good way to learn how Bitcoin does NOT work
 169 2013-06-07 03:47:11 <Corndawg> ok well can it be attached to a pubkey then?
 170 2013-06-07 03:47:14 <Corndawg> or priv key
 171 2013-06-07 03:47:23 <Corndawg> or whatever... something
 172 2013-06-07 03:47:33 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 173 2013-06-07 03:47:43 <Luke-Jr> Corndawg: there is no personal identification in the blockchain
 174 2013-06-07 03:47:48 <Corndawg> that a buyer could use to give his previous honest reputation to a vendor as assurance
 175 2013-06-07 03:47:58 <Corndawg> only if he wants
 176 2013-06-07 03:48:11 <Luke-Jr> Corndawg: identity systems like PGP might be useful
 177 2013-06-07 03:48:12 da2ce7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
 178 2013-06-07 03:48:20 <Luke-Jr> but there isn't one in Bitcoin (yet?)
 179 2013-06-07 03:48:43 yubrew has joined
 180 2013-06-07 03:53:14 <Corndawg> just wondering what can fix one of the bigest prob I see in Bitcoin
 181 2013-06-07 03:53:24 <Luke-Jr> Corndawg: what would that be?
 182 2013-06-07 03:53:45 <Corndawg> lack of instant confirm for a system designed for two partys that dont trust each other
 183 2013-06-07 03:53:51 <Corndawg> for PoS merch
 184 2013-06-07 03:54:06 <Luke-Jr> Corndawg: well, it's far faster than any other system, so IMO not a big problem
 185 2013-06-07 03:54:14 <Luke-Jr> there's the whole speed of light limit and all..
 186 2013-06-07 03:54:16 <Corndawg> "oh wait 45 mins sir for your coffee... I need to wait until 6 confirms"
 187 2013-06-07 03:54:22 <Corndawg> ;)
 188 2013-06-07 03:54:25 <Luke-Jr> that'd be ridiculous
 189 2013-06-07 03:54:28 <Corndawg> I agree
 190 2013-06-07 03:54:37 <Luke-Jr> why would a coffee shop suddenly start waiting for transactions to confirm?
 191 2013-06-07 03:54:47 <Luke-Jr> they accept credit cards and checks without waiting the 6 month confirmation time
 192 2013-06-07 03:55:32 KevinT has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
 193 2013-06-07 03:55:34 <Corndawg> but they trust credit card companies more than random customers I recon
 194 2013-06-07 03:55:34 normanrichards has quit (Quit: normanrichards)
 195 2013-06-07 03:55:45 <Corndawg> they could always take the hit when lots of kids learn how easily they can double spend I guess
 196 2013-06-07 03:55:50 <Luke-Jr> Corndawg: that doesn't make sense
 197 2013-06-07 03:55:56 <Corndawg> or just not use bitcoin... I bit I know which choice they will make
 198 2013-06-07 03:56:02 <Luke-Jr> it's easier to dispute a credit card transaction than to double-spend bitcoin
 199 2013-06-07 03:56:13 digitalmagus has joined
 200 2013-06-07 03:56:23 <Corndawg> really... I'm told it's not
 201 2013-06-07 03:56:31 <Luke-Jr> lol
 202 2013-06-07 03:56:34 owowo has joined
 203 2013-06-07 03:56:45 <Luke-Jr> you just mail in a form a few months later, they reverse the transaction
 204 2013-06-07 03:56:54 <Luke-Jr> value is so low the merchants don't care to argue it
 205 2013-06-07 03:57:00 <Corndawg> no I mean the doublespending
 206 2013-06-07 03:57:07 <Corndawg> lots of people on redit seem to think doublespending is quite trivial
 207 2013-06-07 03:57:26 <Luke-Jr> it's trivial .. if you have a lot of luck or connections, and tech skills…
 208 2013-06-07 03:57:28 <Corndawg> I know not all of them are programmers but... you know otherwise?
 209 2013-06-07 03:57:49 <Luke-Jr> I don't think a single person has ever successfully double-spent in a retail setting
 210 2013-06-07 03:57:56 <Corndawg> only one needs tech skills to write the program...
 211 2013-06-07 03:58:01 <Corndawg> like mixin services
 212 2013-06-07 03:58:17 <Corndawg> pleny of ppl can use them without the skill or knowledge to understand
 213 2013-06-07 03:58:31 <Corndawg> cause someone else who did wrote a program to give them that ability
 214 2013-06-07 03:58:51 <Luke-Jr> you're forgetting the luck/connections aspect
 215 2013-06-07 03:59:26 <Luke-Jr> unless you're a miner, you can't even attempt it really (assuming decent double-spend detection)
 216 2013-06-07 03:59:26 <Corndawg> the scariest thing I read lately on reddit is that someone said "the greatest danger bitcoin faces is the continual downplaying and ignoring of issues that have the potential to seriously undermind bitcoin"
 217 2013-06-07 03:59:36 <Corndawg> I'm starting to wonrder just how right they are ;)
 218 2013-06-07 03:59:51 <Luke-Jr> reddit is 90% trolls
 219 2013-06-07 03:59:53 <Luke-Jr> at least
 220 2013-06-07 03:59:58 <Diablo-D3> not really
 221 2013-06-07 04:00:08 <Corndawg> most of the trolls aren't really that thoughtful or intellegent
 222 2013-06-07 04:00:16 <Corndawg> thye just insult someone and move on
 223 2013-06-07 04:00:33 <Luke-Jr> Corndawg: the real issues get plenty of attention
 224 2013-06-07 04:01:05 <Luke-Jr> not as much as we'd like (due to limited manpower), but they do get it
 225 2013-06-07 04:01:16 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, reddit isn't so much trolls as much as fools
 226 2013-06-07 04:01:36 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: maybe, I try to avoid it
 227 2013-06-07 04:01:42 <Corndawg> well I hope your right...
 228 2013-06-07 04:02:44 <Luke-Jr> Corndawg: most of Bitcoin's problems lie in scaling, security, and reputation
 229 2013-06-07 04:03:13 <Corndawg> isn't this a security issue?
 230 2013-06-07 04:03:17 <Corndawg> doublespending
 231 2013-06-07 04:03:17 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, a lot of the scaling issues are implementation problems
 232 2013-06-07 04:03:24 <phantomcircuit> not fundamental to the protocol at all
 233 2013-06-07 04:03:25 <Luke-Jr> Corndawg: no, the "issue" you bring up isn't a real issue.
 234 2013-06-07 04:03:31 <warren> anyone else been playing with the Coin Control patch?
 235 2013-06-07 04:03:46 <Luke-Jr> Corndawg: it's simple risk management for businesses, but they're more empowered than they were with prior transaction systems
 236 2013-06-07 04:03:55 <Luke-Jr> warren: I use (and older version of it) all the time
 237 2013-06-07 04:03:57 Heimdallr has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 238 2013-06-07 04:04:10 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 239 2013-06-07 04:05:10 <Corndawg> they are certainly empowered to make their choice... only as long as DS is less than percentage cost of CC will they have made the right one
 240 2013-06-07 04:05:26 <warren> Luke-Jr: tried it in combination with https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2651 ?
 241 2013-06-07 04:06:05 [7] has quit (Disconnected by services)
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 244 2013-06-07 04:06:30 <Luke-Jr> warren: no
 245 2013-06-07 04:09:30 <Luke-Jr> Corndawg: it costs over 25 BTC to even *attempt* an undetectable double spend - nobody is going to risk it on coffee
 246 2013-06-07 04:10:20 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, i suspect the vast majority of systems do not handle even detectable double spends correctly
 247 2013-06-07 04:10:29 <phantomcircuit> and just assume they dont happen
 248 2013-06-07 04:10:45 <warren> (including exchanges)
 249 2013-06-07 04:11:06 <phantomcircuit> intersango for one *does* handle it
 250 2013-06-07 04:11:22 <phantomcircuit> that being said it does so in a comically overzealous way
 251 2013-06-07 04:11:25 <phantomcircuit> but it works
 252 2013-06-07 04:11:33 <phantomcircuit> lock all the things and sort it out later
 253 2013-06-07 04:12:13 <shesek> Luke-Jr, why does it cost that?
 254 2013-06-07 04:12:20 <Luke-Jr> shesek: you need to find a block in secret
 255 2013-06-07 04:12:35 <jchp> i'm curious whether the altcoin exchanges have doublespend detection, because that could potentially be a massive clusterfuck
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 259 2013-06-07 04:13:00 <warren> shesek: you find a block and withhold broadcast
 260 2013-06-07 04:13:10 <shesek> if he mines a block without his payment and successfully and it gets into the blockchain, he still gets the 25 BTC
 261 2013-06-07 04:14:19 <jchp> i believe Luke-Jr was referring to a 1-confirm doublespend, not an unconfirmed doublespend
 262 2013-06-07 04:14:22 <phantomcircuit> jchp, i doubt it...
 263 2013-06-07 04:14:40 <Luke-Jr> jchp: no, 1-confirm doublespend is even more risky
 264 2013-06-07 04:14:54 <warren> you need to withhold two blocks ...
 265 2013-06-07 04:15:52 <jchp> why does it cost 25BTC for an unconfirmed doublespend then? i'm confused
 266 2013-06-07 04:16:07 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
 267 2013-06-07 04:16:12 agnostic98 has joined
 268 2013-06-07 04:16:14 <Luke-Jr> jchp: for an UNDETECTABLE unconfirmed doublespend
 269 2013-06-07 04:16:22 <jchp> oh missed that part
 270 2013-06-07 04:16:40 denom has joined
 271 2013-06-07 04:17:28 <phantomcircuit> i actually accept 1 confirms for momentovps.com
 272 2013-06-07 04:17:45 <phantomcircuit> just under the principle of nobody is going to try that hard to steal so little
 273 2013-06-07 04:18:06 forrestv has quit (Changing host)
 274 2013-06-07 04:18:06 forrestv has joined
 275 2013-06-07 04:18:34 <jchp> also that's a service that can be revoked if anyone is crazy/stupid enough to try it
 276 2013-06-07 04:18:44 <phantomcircuit> jchp, exactly
 277 2013-06-07 04:18:54 <phantomcircuit> that's not automated but it does send me an email
 278 2013-06-07 04:19:02 <jchp> how is dealing with hosting using bitcoin as payment?
 279 2013-06-07 04:19:04 <phantomcircuit> which of course i have never actually gotten
 280 2013-06-07 04:19:11 <jchp> seems like a hassle in terms of customer base
 281 2013-06-07 04:19:30 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: have you tested it? :>
 282 2013-06-07 04:19:54 <phantomcircuit> jchp, the only complaints i've received from my host (OVH) were about port scans of universities in the middle east
 283 2013-06-07 04:20:00 <phantomcircuit> saudi arabia and iran
 284 2013-06-07 04:20:11 <phantomcircuit> which was weird but whatever i just suspended their account and moved on
 285 2013-06-07 04:20:13 FabianB_ has joined
 286 2013-06-07 04:20:19 <Luke-Jr> …
 287 2013-06-07 04:20:21 <phantomcircuit> they didn't even complain about their account being suspended
 288 2013-06-07 04:20:28 <Luke-Jr> as if there's something malicious about port scans'
 289 2013-06-07 04:20:30 <phantomcircuit> so i assume they expected that
 290 2013-06-07 04:20:33 da2ce7 has joined
 291 2013-06-07 04:21:14 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, i personally dont care and i dont see why ovh cares
 292 2013-06-07 04:21:15 <jchp> interesting, i've always assumed worse that's good haha
 293 2013-06-07 04:21:18 FabianB has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
 294 2013-06-07 04:21:29 <phantomcircuit> but in the interest of keeping services running i just suspend whenever there's a complaint
 295 2013-06-07 04:21:54 <phantomcircuit> jchp, i honestly couldn't tell you since a substantial portion of users encrypt their disks
 296 2013-06-07 04:23:06 <jchp> heh that actually makes things easier for you as a provider
 297 2013-06-07 04:23:35 <phantomcircuit> jchp, ironically it's actually just born out of lazyness
 298 2013-06-07 04:23:40 <phantomcircuit> i dont provide disk images at all
 299 2013-06-07 04:23:48 <phantomcircuit> you install from an iso image over vnc
 300 2013-06-07 04:23:59 <phantomcircuit> that happens to prompt you to encrypt the disk if you install ubuntu
 301 2013-06-07 04:24:02 <phantomcircuit> which most people do
 302 2013-06-07 04:24:12 <phantomcircuit> i suspect they just get to that point shrug and say why not
 303 2013-06-07 04:24:38 caedes has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 304 2013-06-07 04:25:04 rcorreia has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
 305 2013-06-07 04:25:15 <phantomcircuit> jchp, riding my lazyness to market advantage since mid 2012 ish
 306 2013-06-07 04:25:24 rcorreia has joined
 307 2013-06-07 04:25:45 <jchp> makes sense haha, if i need more VPS for webhosting i'll sign up to try it out
 308 2013-06-07 04:26:30 <phantomcircuit> jchp, lol i recently fixed a few issues people randomly ran into and added capacity
 309 2013-06-07 04:26:47 agnostic98 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 311 2013-06-07 04:26:51 <phantomcircuit> there's now a script which actively probes to identify vms in trouble and restarts them
 312 2013-06-07 04:26:56 owowo has quit (Quit: sayonara)
 313 2013-06-07 04:27:13 <phantomcircuit> and other minor things like the support system actually sends emails now instead of just saying it did
 314 2013-06-07 04:27:35 <phantomcircuit> the biggest problem remains libvirtd
 315 2013-06-07 04:27:40 <phantomcircuit> if anything is even slightly wrong
 316 2013-06-07 04:27:46 <phantomcircuit> it locks up completely
 317 2013-06-07 04:27:56 <jchp> could be worse, it could be running openvz's hilariously buggy/outdated kernels
 318 2013-06-07 04:28:02 <phantomcircuit> but i am pretty much always here
 319 2013-06-07 04:28:14 <phantomcircuit> and when i fix problems i do my best to fix them permanently
 320 2013-06-07 04:28:26 <phantomcircuit> (ie im lazy and dont want to have to keep fixing them!)
 321 2013-06-07 04:28:38 <phantomcircuit> jchp, openvz is hilarious
 322 2013-06-07 04:28:59 <phantomcircuit> so many providers are running kernels with public clean lpe
 323 2013-06-07 04:29:21 <jchp> and i bet a lot of bitcoin businesses run VPSes on openvz and don't realize it
 324 2013-06-07 04:29:21 <Luke-Jr> OpenVZ would be awesome if not for the bugs -.-
 325 2013-06-07 04:29:36 <phantomcircuit> jchp, yeah i think they do
 326 2013-06-07 04:30:14 digitalmagus has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
 327 2013-06-07 04:30:23 <phantomcircuit> jchp, anyways a few highlights for momentovps if you ever do try it out, disks are independent of servers, disks are actually ceph rados block devices
 328 2013-06-07 04:30:38 owowo has joined
 329 2013-06-07 04:30:38 <phantomcircuit> which are mirrored across at least 2 hosts
 330 2013-06-07 04:31:00 <jchp> oh that's a fun way to do things
 331 2013-06-07 04:31:01 <phantomcircuit> ip addresses are assigned to a tagged vlan
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 335 2013-06-07 04:31:23 <phantomcircuit> so i can move a "server" from one host to another rapidly
 336 2013-06-07 04:31:27 <phantomcircuit> it just copies memory
 337 2013-06-07 04:32:01 <phantomcircuit> usually that takes ages since the disk image has to be copied over the network first
 338 2013-06-07 04:32:20 <phantomcircuit> jchp, it's pretty fast actually
 339 2013-06-07 04:32:36 <phantomcircuit> anyways
 340 2013-06-07 04:32:39 <jchp> very interesting, i'll check it out later, i need to go get some food, laters!
 341 2013-06-07 04:32:59 <phantomcircuit> yeah ima go try to sleep
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 382 2013-06-07 05:32:09 <SomeoneWeird> can you get raw block info from rpc ?
 383 2013-06-07 05:32:42 <Luke-Jr> SomeoneWeird: no :/
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 385 2013-06-07 05:32:52 <SomeoneWeird> lol that's lame
 386 2013-06-07 05:33:08 <Luke-Jr> indeed
 387 2013-06-07 05:33:15 <SomeoneWeird> fix it
 388 2013-06-07 05:33:16 <SomeoneWeird> :P
 389 2013-06-07 05:33:18 <Luke-Jr> but nobody can be bothered to write it I guess
 390 2013-06-07 05:33:23 <Luke-Jr> SomeoneWeird: putting a bounty on it? :P
 391 2013-06-07 05:33:41 <Luke-Jr> seriously, it's probably like 15 mins of code I think?
 392 2013-06-07 05:33:48 <Luke-Jr> at most
 393 2013-06-07 05:35:18 <SomeoneWeird> how much would it take? :P
 394 2013-06-07 05:35:28 <sivu> 1btc per min of coding
 395 2013-06-07 05:35:36 <SomeoneWeird> lol
 396 2013-06-07 05:35:37 <Luke-Jr> dunno, I'm probably about to do it anyway just because people keep wanting it <.<
 397 2013-06-07 05:35:45 <Luke-Jr> so any bounty is pretty much a bonus lol
 398 2013-06-07 05:36:41 <SomeoneWeird> well i have .1btc on my laptop because i'm not at home so you can have that :p
 399 2013-06-07 05:38:19 Prattler has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
 400 2013-06-07 05:40:39 <Luke-Jr> SomeoneWeird: you testing it? :P
 401 2013-06-07 05:41:10 <SomeoneWeird> i can try
 402 2013-06-07 05:41:12 <SomeoneWeird> :p
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 410 2013-06-07 05:49:25 <Luke-Jr> SomeoneWeird: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2747
 411 2013-06-07 05:49:44 <Luke-Jr> looks like my time estimate was just about right O.o
 412 2013-06-07 05:49:54 <Luke-Jr> except for the review/merging part XD
 413 2013-06-07 05:51:09 <Luke-Jr> I went ahead and tested it too btw
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 415 2013-06-07 05:52:02 <SomeoneWeird> awesome
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 417 2013-06-07 05:55:49 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: nice, how easy is sendrawblock?
 418 2013-06-07 05:57:55 gjj has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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 420 2013-06-07 05:59:11 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: erm, what? you mean submitblock? XD
 421 2013-06-07 05:59:44 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: oh, did you just make that too?
 422 2013-06-07 06:00:00 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: no, it's a standard part of GBT ;)
 423 2013-06-07 06:01:06 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: oh it is too... I never realized submitblock was a raw block...
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 426 2013-06-07 06:04:20 <petertodd> If it wasn't so late here I'd throw together a Amazon SNS block distributor thing
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 432 2013-06-07 06:22:39 <SomeoneWeird> Luke-Jr, http://pastie.org/private/wigevuympepqm0ccpgttyg
 433 2013-06-07 06:22:50 <SomeoneWeird> am I doing that right/
 434 2013-06-07 06:23:16 <Luke-Jr> SomeoneWeird: you want 0
 435 2013-06-07 06:23:53 <SomeoneWeird> ahhh
 436 2013-06-07 06:23:53 <SomeoneWeird> awesome
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 452 2013-06-07 06:41:31 <sipa> midnightmagic: no offence, but maybe you didn't dig very deep. I once spent _hours_ trying to figure out how the hell the 'spent' flag in wallets remained up to date, eventually finding that when a script was verified (from the block validation code in maij, calling scripts's eval function), script called the wallet (which was also in main.cpp) to mark the corresponding output spent if it matched a known key
 453 2013-06-07 06:42:05 <Diablo-D3> sipa: thaaaats kinda ugly
 454 2013-06-07 06:43:38 <sipa> midnightmagic: i think satoshi's code was more "intricate": doing more unexpected things in a few lines of unrelated code
 455 2013-06-07 06:44:15 <sipa> i think the corebase now more clearly shows how complex it is (though it's still terribly badly modularized)
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 509 2013-06-07 07:52:15 <maaku_> ultraprune question: if I need access to tx db in CreateTransaction, can I just create a CCoinsViewCache view(*pcoinsTip, true) ?
 510 2013-06-07 07:54:18 <sipa> you can just use pcoinsTip directly
 511 2013-06-07 07:54:31 <sipa> but that sounds very ugly
 512 2013-06-07 07:54:51 <sipa> why do you need that?
 513 2013-06-07 07:54:55 Neozonz has quit (Discx2!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 514 2013-06-07 07:55:48 <maaku_> I've modified GetMinFee to request a storage-fee based on the age and size (bytes) of the inputs
 515 2013-06-07 07:56:10 <maaku_> so naturally, it now takes CCoinsViewCache& mapInputs as an argument, and that needs to be passed from CreateTransaction()
 516 2013-06-07 07:57:09 <sipa> why age?
 517 2013-06-07 07:58:02 <sipa> also, whatever you're doing, SPV clients won't be able to do that
 518 2013-06-07 07:58:55 <maaku_> the idea is to make the fee based on utxo size over time
 519 2013-06-07 07:59:17 <sipa> you mean multiplied by time?
 520 2013-06-07 07:59:24 <maaku_> and SPV clients will have access, because you only need access to the inputs of the transaction you are creating
 521 2013-06-07 07:59:56 digitalmagus has joined
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 524 2013-06-07 07:59:56 <sipa> so you should use wallet information, not UTXO data
 525 2013-06-07 08:00:29 <maaku_> (1 - rate) ^ ((nOutputBytes / 1000.0)*(nHeightDelta))
 526 2013-06-07 08:01:19 tmsk has quit (Quit: tmsk)
 527 2013-06-07 08:02:00 <maaku_> it's a compounding fee based on the age and size of the input
 528 2013-06-07 08:02:31 <maaku_> and no, the calculation is in GetMinFee not the wallet (it's just that GetMinFee is called by the wallet code)
 529 2013-06-07 08:03:16 <sipa> ok, so make GetMinFee just take age and size of input coins as argument, so you can call it from the wallet without access to UTXO
 530 2013-06-07 08:03:58 <sipa> imho any wallet code depending on the prrsence of utxo data is broken as it will make turning the wallet code into spv harder
 531 2013-06-07 08:04:20 <maaku_> ? it doesn't rely on utxo data, just wallet transactions
 532 2013-06-07 08:04:45 <maaku_> but only in the context of the wallet making a new transaction
 533 2013-06-07 08:05:10 <maaku_> when deciding whether to accept or relay, it needs utxo data
 534 2013-06-07 08:05:11 <wallet43> does a medium client needs more that all block headers and complete utxo set?
 535 2013-06-07 08:05:24 <sipa> what is a medium client?
 536 2013-06-07 08:05:31 <wallet43> not a full node
 537 2013-06-07 08:05:38 <wallet43> with pruned blockchain etc...
 538 2013-06-07 08:06:08 <sipa> maaku_: you say passing pcoinsTip or a view on top of it to GetMinFee in CreateTransaction, you rely on the presence of utxo data
 539 2013-06-07 08:06:09 <wallet43> able to verify all tx and maybee create the next block
 540 2013-06-07 08:06:25 Neozonz has joined
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 543 2013-06-07 08:06:26 <sipa> wallet43: pruning is not relevant for all that
 544 2013-06-07 08:06:51 toffoo has quit ()
 545 2013-06-07 08:06:59 <sipa> pruning ia juat about whether or not to keep and store historical blocks
 546 2013-06-07 08:07:04 <sipa> is just
 547 2013-06-07 08:07:08 <wallet43> i just wonder how big the blockchain was if it onlt contains future "relevant" data
 548 2013-06-07 08:07:12 <maaku_> sipa: if there were a pseudo-view that just looked up wallet transactions instead of utxo, i could pass that instead from the wallet code
 549 2013-06-07 08:07:28 <sipa> maaku_: that sounds possible yes
 550 2013-06-07 08:07:29 <maaku_> maybe it's a good idea to write such a class, but I'm doing this on a lark :)
 551 2013-06-07 08:07:54 <sipa> wallet43: that is not the blockchain, but the utxo set
 552 2013-06-07 08:08:04 <sipa> wallet43: check the size of your chainstate directory
 553 2013-06-07 08:08:09 <wallet43> yes
 554 2013-06-07 08:08:10 <wallet43> 270
 555 2013-06-07 08:08:28 <wallet43> which is a lot smaller that 9700
 556 2013-06-07 08:08:58 <sipa> yes
 557 2013-06-07 08:09:00 <wallet43> my question is, would the 270 be enough once you verified all blocks up to the last one
 558 2013-06-07 08:09:06 <sipa> sure
 559 2013-06-07 08:09:19 <wallet43> cool :)
 560 2013-06-07 08:09:19 <sipa> that's exactly what it is
 561 2013-06-07 08:09:28 <sipa> the data needed to do block validation
 562 2013-06-07 08:10:46 <maaku_> anyone have some spare testnet coins? mhQbdEwScZ2LGyYmEAjAXsd65vCR86zymp
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 570 2013-06-07 08:30:03 <wump> maaku_: https://tpfaucet.appspot.com/ :)
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 573 2013-06-07 08:36:45 <warren> "// A typical txout is 33 bytes big, and will"
 574 2013-06-07 08:36:51 <warren> are typical inputs 33 bytes too?
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 577 2013-06-07 08:42:29 <wumpus> inputs are larger, wouldn't know how large on average by heart though
 578 2013-06-07 08:44:49 <sipa> 72 bytes for a signature, 33-65 for a pubkey, 2 pushes, 1 byte length record
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 583 2013-06-07 08:52:32 <midnightmagic> sipa: Everything I looked for before, I found, from why my bitcoind had a sticky proxy server setting (wallet.dat) to some assumptions that were made re: hex strings when tracking down a namecoind bug, to successfully modifying payouts in a mined block without tests and with a single modification on a whim one day, to adding a dozen custom rpc commands to set or unset stuff that satoshi designed originally to be immutable; but
 584 2013-06-07 08:52:38 <midnightmagic> these days tracking down bits of wallet code, or even changing a version string, requires six to ten patches in multiple files in multiple locations, and my patches no longer work on the first try. I'm *always* missing some piece that depends on some other piece that depends on some other piece somewhere else. Note: This is a failing on my part, not anyone else's. Satoshi's coding style just seemed to click in my head more
 585 2013-06-07 08:52:44 <midnightmagic> easily. I know TD was complaining once about a weird bitwise shift that Satoshi used to index .. a heap was it? that's the sort of thing I'm talking about. That all makes sense to me. I never looked into the scripting language, I never looked into the reorg or even the retarget code, but for the stuff I was working on, in my experience I am no longer able to make successful, longer-lived patches with as much ease as I used to.
 586 2013-06-07 08:52:56 <midnightmagic> woops, i'm really sorry about the multi-line spam that was longer than I thought
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 588 2013-06-07 08:56:05 <SomeoneWeird> lol
 589 2013-06-07 08:57:16 <sipa> midnightmagic: interesting, i'm biased of course because i know the code very well now, and didn't back then
 590 2013-06-07 08:59:05 <midnightmagic> sipa: I'm certainly not complaining. I'm glad things are easier for you guys now. Since when have I ever submitted a pull request right. :)
 591 2013-06-07 08:59:56 <sipa> well, more easily accessible code is in everyone's interest
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 594 2013-06-07 09:02:23 <mhanne> hm, i'm confused by the block exchange mechanism.. AFAIU https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=41729.0 after getting a batch of inv's, the syncing node should receive the chain head, which will cause it to send a 'getblocks' again because it's an orphan..
 595 2013-06-07 09:02:44 <mhanne> but that only seems to work once; if the syncing node has the orphan already, it won't send a getblocks again
 596 2013-06-07 09:05:12 <mhanne> if i send it the 2nd block of the next batch instead of the chain head, it keeps syncing.. with the chain head, it stops after 1000 blocks
 597 2013-06-07 09:06:05 <sipa> there are many weirdnesses in the block sync mechanism
 598 2013-06-07 09:06:33 <sipa> the "request parents of orphan when received" mechanism is mostly to make sure you keep up with small new updates
 599 2013-06-07 09:06:43 <sipa> there's a initial sync that's separate from that
 600 2013-06-07 09:07:20 <sipa> and i hope we can get rid of the whole thing soon with headers-first sync
 601 2013-06-07 09:07:47 <midnightmagic> ooo that sounds cool
 602 2013-06-07 09:07:52 <mhanne> ah ok.. i'm talking about initial sync yes
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 604 2013-06-07 09:08:18 <sipa> mhanne: it's know (unfortunately) that initial sync gets easily confused when a true new block is announced
 605 2013-06-07 09:08:25 <sipa> but the whole thing is a mess
 606 2013-06-07 09:08:58 <warren> Bitcoin allows zero value txo's, and they remain as utxo's because they can be spent, we could get rid of them from memory in a hardfork if we wanted ... true?
 607 2013-06-07 09:09:10 <sipa> warren: just a softfork
 608 2013-06-07 09:09:15 <warren> oh?
 609 2013-06-07 09:09:27 <sipa> just make 0-outputs unspendable
 610 2013-06-07 09:09:38 <mhanne> well the text says that it's supposed to ask for an update directly when it receives an orphan block it already has.. maybe that got broken at some point?
 611 2013-06-07 09:09:41 <petertodd> warren: really easy, do a p2sh like flag in the coinbase, and miners don't mine such txs once 95% vote
 612 2013-06-07 09:09:42 <warren> oh, softfork that relies on miner majority
 613 2013-06-07 09:10:03 <petertodd> warren: it's what I was going to say in my reply to your email, among other things :)
 614 2013-06-07 09:10:17 coblee has joined
 615 2013-06-07 09:10:22 <sipa> mhanne: afaik that still works perfectly
 616 2013-06-07 09:10:22 <mhanne> do you see any problem with just sending it a 'new' orphan every time?
 617 2013-06-07 09:10:45 <sipa> mhanne: start an unsynced node, don't send out initial getblocks
 618 2013-06-07 09:10:53 <sipa> it will start syncing when the first new block is announced
 619 2013-06-07 09:10:54 <sipa> afaik
 620 2013-06-07 09:11:02 <sipa> if it doesn't work, there's a bug
 621 2013-06-07 09:11:14 <warren> We've assumed that 0-value txo's have no purpose, but what if you *intend* to give away money to a random person, for say moral reasons?
 622 2013-06-07 09:11:27 <sipa> warren: 0-value != money
 623 2013-06-07 09:11:50 <petertodd> warren: You want provably unspendable with the OP_RETURN mechanism to give away mining fees.
 624 2013-06-07 09:12:05 <petertodd> warren: Or anyone-can-spend with OP_TRUE
 625 2013-06-07 09:12:12 <mhanne> sipa: i'm trying to sync a bitcoind from my bitcoin-ruby node.. bitcoind does send a getblocks at first, i send it 500 inv's + 1 for the head, bitcoind fetches the blocks, asks for getblocks again. but repeat that, and it won't send a getblocks again
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 628 2013-06-07 09:13:14 <sipa> mhanne: i'm not surprised that it'd get stuck if you do things slightly differently
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 630 2013-06-07 09:13:21 <sipa> mhanne: it all depends on hacks to work
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 634 2013-06-07 09:13:48 <mhanne> heh ok. then i'll just do my own hack as well :)
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 636 2013-06-07 09:15:32 <coblee> hey sipa and petertodd. Did warren already ask this? Can we do multiple inputs, 0 outputs transactions that gives all the coins in the inputs away as miner fees? Would that pollute the memory pool?
 637 2013-06-07 09:16:05 <sipa> without provably-unspendable outputs, that's hard
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 639 2013-06-07 09:16:18 <petertodd> coblee: Zero outputs doesn't work with bitcoin, just use provably unspendable.
 640 2013-06-07 09:16:33 <sipa> i assume he means "one 0-value output"
 641 2013-06-07 09:16:50 <petertodd> Ah, yeah provably unspendable 0-value output.
 642 2013-06-07 09:17:07 <coblee> so just an OP_RETURN and it won't be added to the memory pool right?
 643 2013-06-07 09:17:08 <warren> sipa: we're going to hardfork and make the rules whatever is ideal
 644 2013-06-07 09:17:24 <petertodd> coblee: you mean the UTXO set?
 645 2013-06-07 09:17:29 <coblee> petertodd: yes
 646 2013-06-07 09:17:42 <petertodd> coblee: Currently the code will add it to the set, but changing that is trivial in the future.
 647 2013-06-07 09:17:44 <warren> petertodd: wait for e-mail, he'll describe the new proposal
 648 2013-06-07 09:17:47 <sipa> heh if you hardfork you may just as well allow no-output transactions...
 649 2013-06-07 09:18:00 <coblee> sipa: a bit hard
 650 2013-06-07 09:18:01 <warren> sipa: any drawbacks to that?
 651 2013-06-07 09:18:09 <sipa> why is that hard?
 652 2013-06-07 09:18:09 <coblee> we are not hard forking by a certain date
 653 2013-06-07 09:18:15 <sipa> ?
 654 2013-06-07 09:18:27 <petertodd> sipa: I dunno... I'm inclined to keep compatibility with Bitcoin code given how little difference there is between no outputs and provably unspendable.
 655 2013-06-07 09:18:28 <coblee> we are hard forking when with a specific transaction that's not previously allowed to clear out the dust spam
 656 2013-06-07 09:18:44 <coblee> yeah, probably unspendable is good enough for us
 657 2013-06-07 09:18:49 <coblee> provably
 658 2013-06-07 09:18:56 <sipa> ok, so have a boolean that remembers whether you've passed that transaction
 659 2013-06-07 09:19:02 <sipa> and when that is set, allow no-outputs
 660 2013-06-07 09:19:24 <warren> petertodd: with this particular proposal we would need *many* wasteful tx's just to get rid of all the UTXO's, so whatever design allows for smallest tx in byte size would be nice.
 661 2013-06-07 09:19:42 <warren> petertodd: and if there's no drawback to allowing no-output transactions, then that sounds good.
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 663 2013-06-07 09:20:13 <petertodd> warren: Right, so you're generating a tx, to spend the dust spam?
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 665 2013-06-07 09:20:22 <sipa> dang, you're in such a luxury position that you can choose whatever rule you want (that's not socially unacceptable), and all you'd do is that? :)
 666 2013-06-07 09:20:25 <warren> petertodd: well, it's a proposal, that he didn't write yet.
 667 2013-06-07 09:20:36 <TheUni> sipa: branch updated to reflect your comments from the other day, and PR sent. thanks again for having a look
 668 2013-06-07 09:20:51 <sipa> TheUni: btw, you have several GPL .m4 files?
 669 2013-06-07 09:20:52 <coblee> petertodd: yes. the gist is that any 1-satoshi output can be spent by the genesis key
 670 2013-06-07 09:21:00 <coblee> with 0 fees
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 672 2013-06-07 09:21:07 <TheUni> sipa: they have exceptions, the resulting binaries aren't gpl'd
 673 2013-06-07 09:21:26 <warren> sipa: we're open to suggestions, seriously.  want to test stuff here? as long as you think it's good and it agrees with the anti-spam goal, we can seriously consider it.
 674 2013-06-07 09:21:27 <petertodd> warren: I'd be inclined to use the soft-fork mechanism myself. Just say outputs <= 1 satoshi are unspendable from now on. That means when UTXO pruning is added, they're provably unspendable so they don't need to be added to the set.
 675 2013-06-07 09:21:45 <warren> petertodd: ooh....
 676 2013-06-07 09:21:47 <sipa> TheUni: you're still distributing them together with the bitcoin source, which imposes restrictions on bitcoin, afaik?
 677 2013-06-07 09:21:53 <TheUni> m4s are scripts that write scripts, so in general license isn't much of a concern because they're not part of what's distributed
 678 2013-06-07 09:21:54 <warren> petertodd: then we don't need to pollute the blockchain with useless tx's
 679 2013-06-07 09:21:54 <sipa> TheUni: (i'm no expert by any means)
 680 2013-06-07 09:22:04 <petertodd> warren: Exactly
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 682 2013-06-07 09:22:09 <sipa> TheUni: they become part of the bitcoin source?
 683 2013-06-07 09:22:09 <warren> coblee: ^^^
 684 2013-06-07 09:22:16 <coblee> warren: let me think
 685 2013-06-07 09:22:28 <warren> petertodd: omgwtfbbq
 686 2013-06-07 09:22:39 <coblee> petertodd: what's the ETA for UTXO pruning?
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 688 2013-06-07 09:22:59 <TheUni> sipa: there are no additional restrictions on source distribution
 689 2013-06-07 09:23:00 <petertodd> coblee: Ask sipa, I don't actually write code. :P
 690 2013-06-07 09:23:14 <sipa> coblee: it's one line of code that someone has to write :)
 691 2013-06-07 09:23:29 <sipa> may be part of jgarzik's recent PR, unsure
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 693 2013-06-07 09:23:38 <petertodd> The real issue is how to distribute data, because that gets you very close to not all nodes having the full chain...
 694 2013-06-07 09:23:45 <coblee> petertodd, warren: so we'd say 1-satoshi outputs are unspendable after a certain date. the same date we set for the BDB possible fork
 695 2013-06-07 09:23:56 <petertodd> coblee: Don't do it by date, do it by coinbase vote.
 696 2013-06-07 09:24:10 <sipa> TheUni: i'd like to hear other people's opinion about that first, though
 697 2013-06-07 09:24:14 <sipa> TheUni: but you may be right
 698 2013-06-07 09:24:17 <coblee> petertodd: ok
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 700 2013-06-07 09:24:28 <warren> petertodd: litecoin has almost zero vendors, so very few people are running customized clients
 701 2013-06-07 09:24:28 <petertodd> coblee: The thing with BDB possible fork, is as Bitcoin has shown, when that kicks in is very unpredictable. (we still haven't forked)
 702 2013-06-07 09:24:29 <coblee> just like the v2
 703 2013-06-07 09:24:51 <petertodd> coblee: Yes, actually the v2 change is the better example... you can probably use that exact bit of code.
 704 2013-06-07 09:25:14 <petertodd> warren: You guys have it easy
 705 2013-06-07 09:25:15 <warren> petertodd:  we had to turn off the v2 lockin because pool software has been making v2 for a while now and we aren't sure they're all real.
 706 2013-06-07 09:25:29 <coblee> we will just make it v3 :)
 707 2013-06-07 09:25:36 <petertodd> warren: sheesh...
 708 2013-06-07 09:25:38 <warren> coblee: pools will screw it up
 709 2013-06-07 09:26:02 <coblee> petertodd: we get to learn from our big brother bitcoin :)
 710 2013-06-07 09:26:22 <petertodd> coblee: heh, and if you guys actually do something interesting, Bitcoin gets to learn from you...
 711 2013-06-07 09:26:41 <warren> petertodd: we could use suggestions on something better than 95%... that already triggered many times without any clients that actually create v2.
 712 2013-06-07 09:27:09 <petertodd> warren: Are people just using Bitcoin code badly modified for litecoin?
 713 2013-06-07 09:27:15 <warren> petertodd: hahahaha
 714 2013-06-07 09:27:20 * warren finds URL.
 715 2013-06-07 09:27:25 <coblee> pretty much
 716 2013-06-07 09:27:33 <petertodd> warren: I hear litecoin mainly gets mined by p2pool...
 717 2013-06-07 09:27:40 <petertodd> warren: ...often by botnets.
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 721 2013-06-07 09:29:33 <sipa> TheUni: for the test sources, can you do something like test_bitcoin_SOURCES = test/*_tests.cpp test/test_bitcoin.cpp $(TEST_DATA_FILES) ?
 722 2013-06-07 09:29:42 <coblee> sipa: a more technical question. how would i mark an output as unspendable so that it would be picked up by UTXO pruning? i mean i could add some code to reject those transactions, but it will be a special case.
 723 2013-06-07 09:30:17 <petertodd> coblee: Bitcoin has decided to use OP_RETURN at the beginning of the scriptPubKey for that.
 724 2013-06-07 09:30:30 <sipa> coblee: there is no such thing "utxo pruning" except just not storing it by detecting it's provably unspendable
 725 2013-06-07 09:30:40 <sipa> at the time it would be added
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 730 2013-06-07 09:31:30 <coblee> ok, so just making sure. nothing i would still need to prune this myself later on since i can't code it generally so that it would be picked by bitcoin's code for free
 731 2013-06-07 09:32:28 <petertodd> coblee: Yeah, try to follow the same standards on stuff like that so code can work with both, including client-side.
 732 2013-06-07 09:33:00 <warren> petertodd: p2pool has always been ~5% of litecoin's hash rate, and I recently discovered a major problem in p2pool, forrestv is fixing it and there is a new hardfork coming soon.
 733 2013-06-07 09:33:02 <warren> petertodd: I'll explain this later.
 734 2013-06-07 09:33:08 <TheUni> sipa: nope, no wildcards
 735 2013-06-07 09:33:14 <sipa> TheUni: :(
 736 2013-06-07 09:33:39 <TheUni> sipa: trust me, it'd look a lot different if wildcards could be used :)
 737 2013-06-07 09:33:39 <petertodd> warren: OK, mention to forrestv to use OP_RETURN at the beginning of the p2pool blockchian hash...
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 739 2013-06-07 09:34:06 <coblee> ok thanks guys (petertodd and sipa), we will look into doing this: soft fork with 1-satoshi outpus unspendable and with v2-like lockin
 740 2013-06-07 09:34:18 robbak has joined
 741 2013-06-07 09:34:21 <warren> petertodd: err, what for?
 742 2013-06-07 09:35:02 <sipa> coblee: what is special about 1 satoshi transactions?
 743 2013-06-07 09:35:11 <sipa> i mean: why not 0 satishi?
 744 2013-06-07 09:35:31 <petertodd> warren: Because currently p2pool makes a spendable, but zero-value, transaction in every block.
 745 2013-06-07 09:35:52 <warren> coblee: Litecoin has 12M spam UTXO of 1-satoshi out of 13M current UTXO, from giant floods in the early days that were stopped by the anti-spam rules.
 746 2013-06-07 09:36:01 <petertodd> sipa: it's to combat a specific spam problem, but yeah, the rule should be <= 1 satoshi
 747 2013-06-07 09:36:04 <sipa> ah
 748 2013-06-07 09:36:25 <coblee> petertodd: yup, got it. <=1 satoshi
 749 2013-06-07 09:36:37 <petertodd> Well, with the exception that == 0 satoshi is allowed iff it's a provably unspendable OP_RETURN scriptPubKey.
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 752 2013-06-07 09:45:28 <sipa> TheUni: any reason why the Qt .o files are prefixed with libbitcoinqt_a- ?
 753 2013-06-07 09:45:33 <sipa> (and the others aren't)
 754 2013-06-07 09:45:39 <sipa> just a question
 755 2013-06-07 09:45:57 <TheUni> sipa: it builds an intermediary libbitcoinqt.a
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 757 2013-06-07 09:46:34 <sipa> TheUni: yes, but the others also build an intermediary libbitcoind.a
 758 2013-06-07 09:46:44 <TheUni> sipa: hmm, you'd think the others would be prefixed too though
 759 2013-06-07 09:46:44 <TheUni> yea
 760 2013-06-07 09:47:36 <sipa> (and this is pure bikeshedding) calling it libbitcoinD.a is confusing, because it contains objects that are not specific to bitcoind
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 763 2013-06-07 09:48:46 <TheUni> sipa: yep, fair point. that's leftover from before i actually had a game-plan
 764 2013-06-07 09:49:03 <TheUni> will fix
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 769 2013-06-07 09:51:23 <TheUni> sipa: envision anyone complaining about the new test_bitcoin-qt binary?
 770 2013-06-07 09:51:29 <TheUni> afaik that wasn't built before?
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 773 2013-06-07 09:51:57 <sipa> TheUni: no problem doing that
 774 2013-06-07 09:51:59 <sipa> (imho)
 775 2013-06-07 09:52:01 <wumpus> TheUni: why complain about that, it's the qt unit tests
 776 2013-06-07 09:53:18 <TheUni> wumpus: in general i didn't want to change any current behavior, to avoid needless bikeshedding
 777 2013-06-07 09:53:21 <wumpus> they should be built, that they're usually not built is a problem to be complained about :)
 778 2013-06-07 09:53:33 <TheUni> but that one seemed like a no-brainer to me
 779 2013-06-07 09:53:38 <sipa> yeah, it is
 780 2013-06-07 09:53:58 <sipa> i really like that one make command now builds everything
 781 2013-06-07 09:54:05 <wumpus> so far no comments on your changes
 782 2013-06-07 09:54:08 <TheUni> ok, good
 783 2013-06-07 09:54:34 <TheUni> wumpus: it's only been there for 30min :)
 784 2013-06-07 09:54:46 <wumpus> yes but I'm reading them right now...
 785 2013-06-07 09:55:20 <TheUni> wumpus: oh, sorry. i thought you meant nobody had commented yet (for better or worse)
 786 2013-06-07 09:56:26 <TheUni> wumpus: the configure is absolutely hideous, but i can defend it pretty well i think. mingw kinda throws a wrench in things
 787 2013-06-07 09:57:06 <wumpus> I'm looking mainly at code changes; all automake stuff looks hideous to me, so that's all the same, if it works in all envisioned scenarios that's good enough 
 788 2013-06-07 09:57:10 <TheUni> it can be tidied up a bunch once we make a few changes to the deps to tuck them into an organized prefix
 789 2013-06-07 09:57:31 <TheUni> ah, ok
 790 2013-06-07 09:58:05 <TheUni> well if there's a single code change that makes an impact, i'm happy to revert or reevaluate. those changes should be nops.
 791 2013-06-07 09:58:18 <wumpus> one thing I wonder (haven't tested yet), do out-of-tree builds work?
 792 2013-06-07 09:58:24 <TheUni> yes
 793 2013-06-07 09:58:26 <TheUni> make distcheck
 794 2013-06-07 09:58:27 <wumpus> cool
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 796 2013-06-07 09:59:05 <TheUni> however, in practice, they won't work enough to be useful
 797 2013-06-07 09:59:14 <wumpus> how do you mean?
 798 2013-06-07 09:59:19 <TheUni> because of leveldb
 799 2013-06-07 09:59:53 <wumpus> oh, right, leveldb ignores that, it's the same with qmake out of tree builds currently 
 800 2013-06-07 10:00:09 <TheUni> out-of-tree build has to copy leveldb into dest, and build it there
 801 2013-06-07 10:00:32 <wumpus> ha, yes, that's a solution 
 802 2013-06-07 10:00:46 <TheUni> that's the hack i added for make dist, anyway
 803 2013-06-07 10:01:14 <TheUni> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2748/files#L1R244
 804 2013-06-07 10:01:59 <TheUni> leveldb is another one i'd like to address, but one thing at a time :)
 805 2013-06-07 10:02:59 <sipa> TheUni: how are inline dependencies usually dealt with?
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 807 2013-06-07 10:03:08 <sipa> you configure/build them separately?
 808 2013-06-07 10:03:26 <TheUni> sipa: you mean like leveldb?
 809 2013-06-07 10:03:28 <sipa> yes
 810 2013-06-07 10:03:50 <sipa> well, i suppose in a way libbitcoind.a right now can be considered an inline dependency as well
 811 2013-06-07 10:04:02 <wumpus> they're usually dealt by having the configure script call the inline dependency's configure script, at least that's what I've found
 812 2013-06-07 10:04:07 <sipa> ok
 813 2013-06-07 10:04:17 <TheUni> sure, but the difference is that we're unaware of what's going on with leveldb
 814 2013-06-07 10:04:37 <sipa> well not unaware, we control the source code completely
 815 2013-06-07 10:04:39 <TheUni> so the dependency tracking is busted, it's all or nothing
 816 2013-06-07 10:04:49 <sipa> but we prefer to keep it in a state where upstream merges are easy
 817 2013-06-07 10:05:02 <TheUni> sipa: sure, not a complaint, just stating how it is
 818 2013-06-07 10:05:30 <TheUni> wumpus: yes, that is reasonably common when a dependency is autotool'd
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 820 2013-06-07 10:05:49 <TheUni> autoconf has support for configuring a sub-configure
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 822 2013-06-07 10:06:01 <TheUni> mainly it depends on the size of the project and how tight the integration is
 823 2013-06-07 10:06:21 <sipa> TheUni: mostly asking because of my libsecp256k1
 824 2013-06-07 10:06:42 <sipa> though that won't be integrated into bitcoin too soon anyway
 825 2013-06-07 10:06:46 <TheUni> sipa: sec, let me take a look at your configure
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 827 2013-06-07 10:07:32 <TheUni> looks like it's just a few tests for yasm/openssl/gmp ?
 828 2013-06-07 10:07:43 <sipa> yeah
 829 2013-06-07 10:08:00 <sipa> and some logic to decide which field/scalar implementation to use based on it
 830 2013-06-07 10:08:04 <TheUni> do you want it integrated with bitcoin? or you want to maintain an upstream for it?
 831 2013-06-07 10:08:33 <sipa> i assume there'll be interest in it outside of bitcoin, so i like keeping it standalone (at least for now)
 832 2013-06-07 10:09:18 <sipa> but to integrate with bitcoin, i'd put it in a subdirectory like leveldb i guess
 833 2013-06-07 10:09:23 <sipa> (git subtree)
 834 2013-06-07 10:09:38 <wumpus> yes, just an optional dependency with configure flag would be great for now
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 836 2013-06-07 10:09:44 <TheUni> ok. well i'm happy to do up a quick buildsystem if you'd like, and get it into debian pretty quickly i'd think
 837 2013-06-07 10:10:19 <sipa> it needs big disclaimers for now :)
 838 2013-06-07 10:10:24 <TheUni> heh
 839 2013-06-07 10:10:34 <TheUni> well, i will have one precondition
 840 2013-06-07 10:10:49 <sipa> which is?
 841 2013-06-07 10:11:06 <warren> sipa: want us to ship secp256k1 by default? =)
 842 2013-06-07 10:11:28 <TheUni> ah nm, looks like i read your configure wrong
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 844 2013-06-07 10:11:44 <TheUni> i thought you were doing a run-test of your yasm output
 845 2013-06-07 10:12:17 <sipa> no, i attempt to link it with C code using to, to make sure there are name mangling/calling convention issues
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 847 2013-06-07 10:12:29 <sipa> but that was when the code was C++; i don't think that's even useful anymore
 848 2013-06-07 10:12:53 <warren> sipa: Can bitcoin have both openssl and secp256k1 simultaneously, where one can validate the other?  (wouldn't work for things that require random inputs, of course)
 849 2013-06-07 10:12:55 <TheUni> yep, got it
 850 2013-06-07 10:13:27 <sipa> warren: there are unit tests that compare openssl with secp256k1
 851 2013-06-07 10:13:38 <sipa> (sign with one, verify using the other)
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 855 2013-06-07 10:14:03 <sipa> having bitcoin verify using both would be useful, but maybe overkill
 856 2013-06-07 10:14:04 <warren> sipa: I meant, production nodes can run with *both*, and it can log instances where secp256k1 disagrees with openssl, to keep an eye out for bugs.
 857 2013-06-07 10:14:41 <warren> it would be slow, but it wouldn't risk the node
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 861 2013-06-07 10:16:01 <TheUni> sipa: the code is portable?
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 863 2013-06-07 10:16:16 <sipa> TheUni: define portable?
 864 2013-06-07 10:16:27 <sipa> i have only tested it on i386/x86_64
 865 2013-06-07 10:16:31 <sipa> and linux
 866 2013-06-07 10:16:34 <warren> I managed to build secp256k1 win32 binaries but I haven't tried running them
 867 2013-06-07 10:16:40 <TheUni> heh
 868 2013-06-07 10:16:50 <warren> gitian win32 secp256k1
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 871 2013-06-07 10:17:06 <TheUni> do you assume little endian? hand-written x86 asm? assume a compiler or libc?
 872 2013-06-07 10:17:22 <TheUni> i'm just trying to assess any drawbacks on that front
 873 2013-06-07 10:17:27 <sipa> i assume no endianness (though that isn't tested)
 874 2013-06-07 10:17:41 <sipa> there is hand-written x86_64 assembly, but its use is optional
 875 2013-06-07 10:18:15 <sipa> and you need either GMP or OpenSSL (for now)
 876 2013-06-07 10:19:10 <sipa> the int128 field implementation requires a __int128 type, which probably means recent gcc or clang on 64-bit system, but that's optional too
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 879 2013-06-07 10:20:51 <sipa> a 16-bit OS will probably not work :D
 880 2013-06-07 10:21:50 <TheUni> heh
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 892 2013-06-07 10:27:38 <sipa> TheUni: have to go; in any case, thanks for your offer; i'd appreciate a nice build system for it, but it's by no means urgent
 893 2013-06-07 10:27:50 <TheUni> sipa: builds for android, fwiw
 894 2013-06-07 10:28:01 <sipa> oh wow
 895 2013-06-07 10:28:13 <sipa> using openssl backend?
 896 2013-06-07 10:28:18 <TheUni> yea
 897 2013-06-07 10:28:40 <sipa> tests work?
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 899 2013-06-07 10:29:10 <TheUni> umm, i can test if you can hold 5min
 900 2013-06-07 10:29:18 <sipa> in an emulator?
 901 2013-06-07 10:29:23 <TheUni> no
 902 2013-06-07 10:29:39 <sipa> i'm curious how long the benchmark takes!
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 904 2013-06-07 10:30:55 <TheUni> running
 905 2013-06-07 10:30:55 <sipa> what hardware?
 906 2013-06-07 10:31:03 <TheUni> how long does it take on desktop?
 907 2013-06-07 10:31:09 <sipa> around 2 minuts
 908 2013-06-07 10:31:22 <sipa> it does 1M signature verifications
 909 2013-06-07 10:31:53 <TheUni> hmm
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 911 2013-06-07 10:32:06 <TheUni> root@android:/sbin # time ./secp256k1
 912 2013-06-07 10:32:06 <TheUni> test count = 100
 913 2013-06-07 10:32:06 <TheUni>     0m41.10s real     0m40.89s user     0m0.03s system
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 916 2013-06-07 10:32:31 <sipa> ah, that's the unit tests, not the benchmark
 917 2013-06-07 10:32:39 <sipa> make bench
 918 2013-06-07 10:32:42 <TheUni> oh, thought they were the same thing
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 920 2013-06-07 10:32:55 <TheUni> well i'm kinda having to hand-craft your makefiles :p
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 924 2013-06-07 10:33:12 <sipa> right :)
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 926 2013-06-07 10:33:40 <sipa> in any case, on a desktop on 32-bit using openssl it will probably already be closer to 10 minutes
 927 2013-06-07 10:33:59 <sipa> so it may be worth reducing the iteration count before testing
 928 2013-06-07 10:34:05 <sipa> but i have to go, thanks for your help!
 929 2013-06-07 10:34:13 <TheUni> running
 930 2013-06-07 10:34:15 <sipa> (for both bitcoin and secp256k1)
 931 2013-06-07 10:34:22 <TheUni> np, cya
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 968 2013-06-07 11:11:18 <melvster> james joyce said that money was 'solidified energy' ... does bitcoin fulfill that prophecy?
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 980 2013-06-07 11:20:45 <TheUni> sipa: for backlog: 33m54.57s real
 981 2013-06-07 11:21:06 <runeks> What could cause this error?
 982 2013-06-07 11:21:07 <runeks> runCommand error: system(/home/ubuntu/ASICMiner/asicminer.py --client 00000000000000a5a8f2d9a3c4b4c29e6c4b71e6acd4be90cff73fb7c55dbf9c) returned -1
 983 2013-06-07 11:21:25 <runeks> does system() return the return value of the executed script?
 984 2013-06-07 11:22:10 one_zero has quit ()
 985 2013-06-07 11:23:23 <runeks> I see that a return value of -1 for system() means it couldn't execute the program (for whatever reason).
 986 2013-06-07 11:24:35 grau has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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 988 2013-06-07 11:25:34 <sipa> TheUni: what hardware?
 989 2013-06-07 11:27:11 <TheUni> sipa: dual cortex a9 at 1.2ghz
 990 2013-06-07 11:27:40 <sipa> is that 32-bit or 64-bit?
 991 2013-06-07 11:27:42 Toresh has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 992 2013-06-07 11:28:04 <runeks> 32-bit
 993 2013-06-07 11:28:09 <sipa> still, pretty good actually: that means 0.2ms per verification
 994 2013-06-07 11:28:11 bigbeninlondon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 995 2013-06-07 11:28:20 <TheUni> 32. aarch64 isn't really in the wild yet
 996 2013-06-07 11:28:50 <sipa> actually, i think on my own system in 32-bit (which is an i7 at 3.16GHz) mode, it's over 0.4ms
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 998 2013-06-07 11:29:26 <sipa> runeks: yes
 999 2013-06-07 11:29:51 <TheUni> sipa: also worth noting i didn't tweak at all (neon mainly)
1000 2013-06-07 11:29:55 <runeks> sipa: Yes to what?
1001 2013-06-07 11:30:02 <sipa> runeks: system returns the exit code
1002 2013-06-07 11:30:28 <runeks> sipa: But my program doesn't return -1 :\ only 0 or 1
1003 2013-06-07 11:31:06 <sipa> runeks: it can also return error codes resulting from failure to execute in the first place (like not finding the binary, or some shell error)
1004 2013-06-07 11:31:35 <runeks> "The return value is -1 if it wasn't possible to create the shell process, and otherwise is the status of the shell process."
1005 2013-06-07 11:32:12 <runeks> sipa: The strange this is that it worked fine for blocks up to 240013. And then in the middle of it all it starting failing for all subsequent blocks. Running the command manually for the block in question works fine.
1006 2013-06-07 11:32:26 <runeks> s/this/thing
1007 2013-06-07 11:33:26 lolcookie__ has joined
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1009 2013-06-07 11:36:06 Mobius_ has joined
1010 2013-06-07 11:36:59 Mobius_ is now known as MobiusL
1011 2013-06-07 11:37:00 <runeks> I'm also getting a lot of these error messages in my debug.log:
1012 2013-06-07 11:37:01 <runeks> ERROR: CTxMemPool::accept() : nonstandard transaction type
1013 2013-06-07 11:37:18 <runeks> 31234 of these in total in debug.log
1014 2013-06-07 11:39:17 <sipa> runeks: that's the new dust filtering
1015 2013-06-07 11:39:49 <runeks> sipa: Oh, ok. That's benign then.
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1020 2013-06-07 11:42:12 <runeks> Are the "Non-canonical signature: R value negative" messages from old clients? IIRC it's because of some non-standard OpenSSL handling of signature formats.
1021 2013-06-07 11:42:36 <sipa> we don't know who keeps producing them
1022 2013-06-07 11:43:28 <sipa> certainly not any bitcoind/bitcoin-qt/wxbitcoin, bitcoinj/multibit/android wallet, and no recent armory or bitcoin-js either
1023 2013-06-07 11:44:07 bigbeninlondon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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1025 2013-06-07 11:45:28 <runeks> Odd
1026 2013-06-07 11:45:52 duSn has quit (Quit: leaving)
1027 2013-06-07 11:46:15 <sipa> i've mailed and posted about it before
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1030 2013-06-07 11:47:55 <TD> it looked like it might have been an old bitcoinjs?
1031 2013-06-07 11:48:06 MobiusL is now known as ReadMe
1032 2013-06-07 11:48:06 <TD> the iPhone app is, iirc, un-updatable because ben is afraid of triggering a rereview by apple
1033 2013-06-07 11:48:11 ReadMe has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
1034 2013-06-07 11:48:27 <TD> although if we're breaking the app with the canonical-sig changes anyway, iPhone users may soon lose the ability to run a soft-side wallet outside the browser.
1035 2013-06-07 11:48:59 <sipa> oh, i didn't know there was a real iphone app in the first place
1036 2013-06-07 11:49:19 <sipa> all i knew was that bitcoinjs at some point made non-canonical sigs, but that that was fixed >1y ago
1037 2013-06-07 11:50:20 <sipa> i've mailed ben personally about the non-canonical sigs, to ask if he could help finding clients that created them - so he should be aware of the problem - though he didn't answer
1038 2013-06-07 11:51:04 <tgs3> I was thinking of making really secure linux, most secure up to date, and providing it with preinstalled bitcoind. thoughts?
1039 2013-06-07 11:51:52 seeingidog__ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1040 2013-06-07 11:53:26 <CodeShark> I really hope in the future the security of bitcoind relies more on the p2p network enforcing the rules and moving all private key storage off to isolated modules that just do signing
1041 2013-06-07 11:54:23 <CodeShark> and that wallets move away from this single enduser client model to an enterprise policy definition model, where signatures are required to perform specific operations
1042 2013-06-07 11:54:35 <CodeShark> one or more signatures
1043 2013-06-07 11:55:16 <CodeShark> and the protocol supports proposing transactions and having signers authorize them
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1045 2013-06-07 11:56:04 <CodeShark> a monolithic bitcoind that does everything, including the wallet, is just not the way to go :)
1046 2013-06-07 11:57:10 <CodeShark> we should really encourage people to run validation/relay nodes on as many different platforms as possible
1047 2013-06-07 11:57:27 <CodeShark> to make it hard for a single attack vector to take out a significant chunk of the network
1048 2013-06-07 11:59:49 <CodeShark> we might also want to look into strengthening support for a transport layer that can manage port renegotiations or even tunneling through HTTP connections to make it difficult to shut down
1049 2013-06-07 12:00:29 <CodeShark> and let's move all signing off the validation/relay hubs
1050 2013-06-07 12:01:57 * sipa proposes RFC 1149
1051 2013-06-07 12:04:23 <CodeShark> lol
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1056 2013-06-07 12:08:41 <CodeShark> RFC 1149 could work with high density storage :)
1057 2013-06-07 12:09:40 <CodeShark> stick the entire UTXO set and last known block on there :)
1058 2013-06-07 12:10:54 <TD> sipa: yeah ben is never responsive
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1061 2013-06-07 12:11:13 <TD> sipa: he spends all his time writing code, i think ..... but i think this is the most likely explanation. the iPhone app has a >1year old copy of bitcoinjs and cannot be changed.
1062 2013-06-07 12:11:16 <TD> because of how screwed up apple is
1063 2013-06-07 12:13:04 <sipa> TD: he was resoonsive before about the same issue (a year ago), and about other things
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1066 2013-06-07 12:15:33 <CodeShark> has ben disappeared?
1067 2013-06-07 12:16:19 <jouke> isn't it a problem that there is still wallet software out there that will create dust outputs?
1068 2013-06-07 12:16:48 <tgs3> CodeShark: that is good point. that can give good isolation. 1 program is p2p node, other program does the calculation, other is store of cold wallets
1069 2013-06-07 12:17:23 nikolaj has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1070 2013-06-07 12:17:59 <CodeShark> tgs3: yes - and I'd also like to see a protocol layer where you can propose transactions and request signatures from other nodes
1071 2013-06-07 12:18:30 <tgs3> though my work regarding secure linux focuses on the system,
1072 2013-06-07 12:18:32 <CodeShark> so transactions can be initiated anywhere and signed anywhere else
1073 2013-06-07 12:18:43 <tgs3> but it should make it easier to isolate communication, with rules like
1074 2013-06-07 12:18:56 <tgs3> bitcoind can only write into /dev/shm/transactions-to-sign
1075 2013-06-07 12:19:07 <tgs3> and only bitcoind-p2pnode can read that file
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1077 2013-06-07 12:19:30 <CodeShark> can't hurt to also have stuff like that
1078 2013-06-07 12:19:48 <tgs3> it's for case of exploit in the program or system or system lib
1079 2013-06-07 12:19:51 <warren> <CodeShark> [01:33:37] to make it hard for a single attack vector to take out a significant chunk of the network  <----- Sounds like accidental forks will be easy.
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1082 2013-06-07 12:21:05 <CodeShark> warren: that is a potential problem - but as long as the majority of nodes (and in particular mining nodes) continue to behave in a similar fashion, what that will really mean in practice is if you're running a minority node you'll have to either patch it or run a different program immediately
1083 2013-06-07 12:21:57 <CodeShark> I also would recommend that mining nodes use more than one validation engine, at least two different implementations of bitcoin
1084 2013-06-07 12:22:23 <CodeShark> this idea has been brought up before - I'd like to see it actually become standard practice
1085 2013-06-07 12:22:36 <warren> CodeShark: the network-based testing needs to be used more.  don't know to what extent fuzzing is possible on the network protocol.  Might need to hire people dedicated to improving the automated tests.
1086 2013-06-07 12:23:06 <warren> CodeShark: wouldn't that hurt them due to increased chance of orphans?
1087 2013-06-07 12:23:29 <warren> CodeShark: it is the miner's goal to win the race and broadcast their block as quickly as possible
1088 2013-06-07 12:23:49 <CodeShark> warren: it's a balance between that risk...and the risk that they end up on a minority fork
1089 2013-06-07 12:24:34 <CodeShark> besides, validation can be done in parallel
1090 2013-06-07 12:24:44 <warren> This is similar to my suggestion of running both openssl and secp256k1 on production nodes to keep an eye out for bugs in the latter, except there is a real cost to the miners.
1091 2013-06-07 12:25:21 <warren> Miners don't do what's safe.  they do what seems-to-work until it no longer works.
1092 2013-06-07 12:25:32 <lianj> not only to miners
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1094 2013-06-07 12:26:19 <BlueMatt> ;;later tell Goonie_ I keep getting "Transaction did not deserialize completely: ..." when restarting testnet wallet app after killing it
1095 2013-06-07 12:26:20 <gribble> The operation succeeded.
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1098 2013-06-07 12:27:02 <CodeShark> the greatest risk, as far as forks, is if a minority miner still has majority hashing power
1099 2013-06-07 12:27:40 <CodeShark> minority implementation, that is
1100 2013-06-07 12:27:51 <warren> well, undesired implementation
1101 2013-06-07 12:28:22 <warren> CodeShark: as we learned from March 12th, don't worry!  We can 51% our own network thanks to centralization.
1102 2013-06-07 12:28:27 <CodeShark> haha
1103 2013-06-07 12:29:14 <CodeShark> there was much irony in that event
1104 2013-06-07 12:30:07 <CodeShark> it was a deliberate 51% attack using the older, buggy implementation
1105 2013-06-07 12:30:21 <warren> (the above statement was sarcastic, with a tinge of fear)
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1108 2013-06-07 12:32:35 <CodeShark> are you saying we shouldn't rely on just calling slush up and telling him to run a different validation engine? :P
1109 2013-06-07 12:33:33 <warren> CodeShark: sounds like a great plan
1110 2013-06-07 12:34:31 <CodeShark> if only there were a way to directly reward miners for using more than one implementation
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1116 2013-06-07 12:36:10 <CodeShark> not sure that could be done in the protocol itself
1117 2013-06-07 12:36:37 <CodeShark> could be done if maintainers of different implementations are willing to pay out rewards to miners who find discrepancies in behavior between their implementation and others
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1119 2013-06-07 12:37:06 <sipa> afaik that already exists: once there are (unknown whether compatible) validation engines on the network, miners have all incentive to verify their blocks against multiple
1120 2013-06-07 12:37:10 <CodeShark> at least in cases where the behavior is reproducible
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1123 2013-06-07 12:37:43 <CodeShark> in which case it's easy to prove a particular block causes a fork but might be very hard to find an example
1124 2013-06-07 12:38:06 <warren> Question ... if you found the rare block, what disincentive is there to delay broadcasting it since it is so rare?  You're either on the winning or losing fork.
1125 2013-06-07 12:38:42 <warren> just saying anything that causes delay miners won't do
1126 2013-06-07 12:38:56 <warren> since their incentive to mine is driven by greed
1127 2013-06-07 12:38:59 <CodeShark> perhaps we need a few more forks to motivate them, then :Lp
1128 2013-06-07 12:39:26 <CodeShark> once a miner has ended up on the losing fork a couple times, perhaps they will consider it worth the tiny extra cost of running a second machine
1129 2013-06-07 12:39:35 <warren> you're also suggesting they shouldn't broadcast a block, in which case the network may never know about the vulnerability
1130 2013-06-07 12:39:40 Transisto has joined
1131 2013-06-07 12:40:21 <CodeShark> they SHOULD broadcast it - but perhaps with a flag of some sort
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1133 2013-06-07 12:40:47 <warren> This might work as incentive: a bounty for finding blocks that break different validation engines.
1134 2013-06-07 12:40:48 <CodeShark> or at the very least they should send it to the maintainers of the implementations they are using
1135 2013-06-07 12:41:02 <warren> Make the incentive more than the block they would lose.
1136 2013-06-07 12:41:05 <CodeShark> that might be better in some circumstances
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1139 2013-06-07 12:42:03 <CodeShark> the coinbase transaction makes it easy to determine where the bounty goes
1140 2013-06-07 12:43:01 <warren> how do you fairly fund the bounty?
1141 2013-06-07 12:43:50 <CodeShark> seems like that would be up to the maintainers of the different implementations
1142 2013-06-07 12:44:08 <CodeShark> and whatever donations/investors/trust fund money they can get :p
1143 2013-06-07 12:45:13 <CodeShark> it also gives incentive to the maintainers of implementations to test for discrepancies before they are discovered by others
1144 2013-06-07 12:47:31 <CodeShark> the full reward only needs to be paid to miners who would have otherwise mined a main chain block
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1146 2013-06-07 12:48:06 <warren> "main chain block" is already true
1147 2013-06-07 12:48:28 <CodeShark> discrepancies can also be discovered by turning off proof-of-work validation
1148 2013-06-07 12:48:49 <CodeShark> what's it called - I know there's a name for all this :p
1149 2013-06-07 12:49:44 <warren> https://github.com/viperaus/stratum-mining/pull/4
1150 2013-06-07 12:49:47 * warren facepalm
1151 2013-06-07 12:51:26 <CodeShark> anyhow, yes - lower difficulty shares could pay out lower rewards
1152 2013-06-07 12:52:03 <warren> Not exactly what you were talking about, but "turning off proof-of-work validation" is almost what existed in the scrypt pools.
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1157 2013-06-07 12:53:39 <warren>             // Free transaction area
1158 2013-06-07 12:53:39 <warren>             if (nNewBlockSize < 27000)
1159 2013-06-07 12:53:39 <warren>                 nMinFee = 0;
1160 2013-06-07 12:53:45 <warren> btw, how was 27000 chosen?
1161 2013-06-07 12:54:03 <BlueMatt> because gavin likes the number 11?
1162 2013-06-07 12:54:25 <SomeoneWeird> gavin loves the number 11
1163 2013-06-07 12:54:58 <warren> so, no reason
1164 2013-06-07 12:55:12 <CodeShark> lol - the number 11?
1165 2013-06-07 12:55:20 <sipa> my guess is that's historical
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1168 2013-06-07 12:58:55 <Subo1978> hi, i have "walletversion" : 59900 ond windows. how should i upgrade it to 60000
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1176 2013-06-07 13:06:43 <kapiteined> is http://bitcoin.sipa.be dead?
1177 2013-06-07 13:09:42 <sipa> no?
1178 2013-06-07 13:11:36 <TD> it's slow to load but works for me
1179 2013-06-07 13:11:47 <TD> that's quite an impressive recent jump
1180 2013-06-07 13:12:31 <jgarzik> Yah.  Wonder who has come online.
1181 2013-06-07 13:12:49 <jgarzik> BFL finally shipping (or mining themselves)?  New ASICMINER?  Av batch 2?  Other?
1182 2013-06-07 13:13:43 <kapiteined> hmm.. it is over here. it seems to be some DNS issue.
1183 2013-06-07 13:14:04 tyn has joined
1184 2013-06-07 13:16:38 <TD> probably all of them together
1185 2013-06-07 13:17:22 taha has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1186 2013-06-07 13:17:28 <Diablo-D3> jgarzik: all the asicminer sticks are out there now
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1189 2013-06-07 13:23:44 <SomeoneWeird> http://andrewkelley.me/post/jamulator.html
1190 2013-06-07 13:24:21 <jgarzik> SomeoneWeird, cool
1191 2013-06-07 13:24:33 <SomeoneWeird> /crazy/
1192 2013-06-07 13:25:34 <jgarzik> SomeoneWeird, if you can JIT Java bytecodes, you can JIT anything, including non-native binaries
1193 2013-06-07 13:26:04 <jgarzik> CPUs just haven't been fast enough to manage it in the past.  I remember Kaffe, how slow it was on modern CPUs of the day (15 years ago).
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1195 2013-06-07 13:26:32 <SomeoneWeird> yeah i know
1196 2013-06-07 13:26:34 <SomeoneWeird> still crazy
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1277 2013-06-07 14:42:29 <SomeoneWeird> is there a wiki page for the protocol? (p2p stuff)?
1278 2013-06-07 14:42:33 Grishnakh_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1279 2013-06-07 14:42:58 <SomeoneWeird> er ok nvm
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1308 2013-06-07 15:12:34 <enigmuriatic1> what delimits blocks in the blockchain? in other words, if i only wanted the header of each block what regular expression or pattern would i use?
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1314 2013-06-07 15:15:46 <tonikt> enigmuriatic1: you mean the .dat files in the database storage folder?
1315 2013-06-07 15:16:44 <enigmuriatic1> tonikt, yeah
1316 2013-06-07 15:16:50 <enigmuriatic1> that's the blockchain, correct?
1317 2013-06-07 15:17:07 <tonikt> eh, sort of :)
1318 2013-06-07 15:17:23 <tonikt> the copy of the blockchain is there - yes
1319 2013-06-07 15:17:32 <sipa> that's a bunch of files containing a concatenation of blocks serialized in network format
1320 2013-06-07 15:17:42 <sipa> it's technically more a block tree than a block chain
1321 2013-06-07 15:17:57 <sipa> as it does not contain information about which chain through the tree is currently considered active/best
1322 2013-06-07 15:18:32 <enigmuriatic1> sipa, so it stores blocks that aren't used?
1323 2013-06-07 15:18:43 <enigmuriatic1> blocks that the client considers invalid?
1324 2013-06-07 15:18:50 <tonikt> as sipa said. and the format inde the dat file is: F9 BE B4 D9 followed by 4 bytes of block length, follow by the block - and repeat until you reach EOF
1325 2013-06-07 15:18:54 <sipa> you mistake "invalid" for "inactive"
1326 2013-06-07 15:19:01 <sipa> it does not contain invalid blocks
1327 2013-06-07 15:19:05 <enigmuriatic1> that complicates things, for sure
1328 2013-06-07 15:19:25 <enigmuriatic1> what's the typical method for parsing out the active ones?
1329 2013-06-07 15:19:39 <sipa> you ask bitcoind?
1330 2013-06-07 15:19:48 <tonikt> you need to build a tree in a memory
1331 2013-06-07 15:19:57 <sipa> you can't parse that, it's just stored in a different dataset
1332 2013-06-07 15:20:06 <tonikt> you cannot do it with a regexp/ pattern matching
1333 2013-06-07 15:20:21 <sipa> blocks themself do not know whether they're active, obviously
1334 2013-06-07 15:20:32 <enigmuriatic1> i understand that
1335 2013-06-07 15:20:41 <sipa> what are you trying to do?
1336 2013-06-07 15:20:45 <enigmuriatic1> sipa, what other dataset is it stored in
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1339 2013-06-07 15:21:24 <enigmuriatic1> i'm trying to write a blockchain parsing tool for research, sipa. one that can easily get every transaction from a blockchain and store it in a sqlite database.
1340 2013-06-07 15:21:41 phebus has joined
1341 2013-06-07 15:21:43 <enigmuriatic1> that gives the full transaction history of the market, which can then be used for research
1342 2013-06-07 15:22:34 <enigmuriatic1> there was one C++ command line parser I came across but it was slow to the point of being unusable at a large scale, and there wasn't a direct command used to get all transactions
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1346 2013-06-07 15:28:08 <sipa> enigmuriatic1: enable txindex=1 and you can look up any transaction/block just using bitcoind RPCs
1347 2013-06-07 15:28:52 <enigmuriatic1> sipa, i'm not sure what you mean by that
1348 2013-06-07 15:29:10 <sipa> getblock <blockhash> gives you a block
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1350 2013-06-07 15:29:20 <sipa> getrawtransaction <txid> gives you a transaction
1351 2013-06-07 15:30:04 <enigmuriatic1> sipa, where am i making these commands?
1352 2013-06-07 15:30:20 <sipa> either using bitcoind, having it function as a JSON-RPC client
1353 2013-06-07 15:30:29 <sipa> or using whatever programming language that supports JSON-RPC
1354 2013-06-07 15:31:05 <enigmuriatic1> how would that be speed-wise?
1355 2013-06-07 15:31:32 <sipa> bitcoind isn't particularly fast in handling with RPC calls
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1358 2013-06-07 15:33:55 <enigmuriatic1> sipa, that may be the problem
1359 2013-06-07 15:34:04 <tonikt> it surely will be faster than sqlite
1360 2013-06-07 15:34:16 <enigmuriatic1> if i'm dealing with transactions in the hundreds of millions  it's going to be a bottleneck
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1362 2013-06-07 15:34:28 <enigmuriatic1> tonikt, the alternative is just saving them all in a text file
1363 2013-06-07 15:34:33 <jgarzik> some people turn to redis or mongodb
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1365 2013-06-07 15:35:02 <enigmuriatic1> jgarzik, that might be a good idea. i wouldn't know though, as i've never learned thing 1 about non-SQL database tech
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1369 2013-06-07 15:40:13 <enigmuriatic1> tonikt, sipa, it looks like bitcoind is more of a personal parsing tool
1370 2013-06-07 15:40:17 <enigmuriatic1> for personal accounts etc
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1374 2013-06-07 15:46:50 <enigmuriatic1> also, sipa, getblock isn't a bitcoind command according to the man page
1375 2013-06-07 15:47:10 <jgarzik> enigmuriatic1, You are confused :)
1376 2013-06-07 15:47:21 <enigmuriatic1> jgarzik, how?
1377 2013-06-07 15:47:41 <jgarzik> enigmuriatic1, bitcoind is a bitcoin P2P node, that maintains an accurate blockchain database plus a user wallet
1378 2013-06-07 15:47:50 <jgarzik> enigmuriatic1, it is not a "parsing tool"
1379 2013-06-07 15:47:56 <enigmuriatic1> i understand that, jgarzik
1380 2013-06-07 15:48:12 <enigmuriatic1> i was referencing it as a parsing tool in my attempt to use it as one
1381 2013-06-07 15:48:14 <jgarzik> enigmuriatic1, and sipa was quite accurate.  getblock is a JSON-RPC command that may be executed on the command line
1382 2013-06-07 15:48:29 <enigmuriatic1> any kind of bitcoin tool is a parsing program of one kind or another
1383 2013-06-07 15:48:33 <jgarzik> enigmuriatic1, after -txindex=1, you may reference all bitcoin blocks
1384 2013-06-07 15:48:48 <jgarzik> via 'getblock' and 'getrawtransaction', as sipa stated
1385 2013-06-07 15:49:10 <enigmuriatic1> you're right, it does work
1386 2013-06-07 15:49:12 seeingidog__ has joined
1387 2013-06-07 15:49:19 <enigmuriatic1> it isn't in the documentation for some reason
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1391 2013-06-07 15:52:45 <enigmuriatic1> jgarzik, how did you find out about these commands and settings?
1392 2013-06-07 15:52:51 <enigmuriatic1> they aren't in the documentation at all
1393 2013-06-07 15:54:03 <jgarzik> enigmuriatic1, They are documented in the source code and https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_Calls_list
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1395 2013-06-07 15:55:33 <enigmuriatic1> jgarzik, so how would you suggest I get everything?
1396 2013-06-07 15:55:47 <jgarzik> enigmuriatic1, define "everything"
1397 2013-06-07 15:55:57 <enigmuriatic1> every valid active transaction ever made
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1400 2013-06-07 15:58:20 <enigmuriatic1> jgarzik
1401 2013-06-07 15:58:34 <jgarzik> enigmuriatic1, define "active"  Does that mean unspent?
1402 2013-06-07 15:58:57 <enigmuriatic1> jgarzik, no. every txn that is part of what is currently considered the market
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1404 2013-06-07 16:00:22 <jgarzik> enigmuriatic1, loop over each block, either with a binary parser working on the raw binary data, or using bitcoind's JSON-RPC API to query each block
1405 2013-06-07 16:00:34 <enigmuriatic1> jgarzik, how do i get a list of the block ids?
1406 2013-06-07 16:02:03 <jgarzik> enigmuriatic1, get current height, getblockhash 'current height', then work backwards through the linked list using 'getblock'
1407 2013-06-07 16:02:16 <jgarzik> enigmuriatic1, each block lists the hash of the previous block
1408 2013-06-07 16:02:22 <enigmuriatic1> jgarzik, ahhh, the block ids are just their height?
1409 2013-06-07 16:02:46 <jgarzik> enigmuriatic1, no.  the block id is a hash.
1410 2013-06-07 16:03:00 <jgarzik> enigmuriatic1, the first two steps bootstrap you into the hash list.
1411 2013-06-07 16:03:16 <jgarzik> enigmuriatic1, then, using each hash id, you walk backwards to the beginning of the list
1412 2013-06-07 16:03:19 <enigmuriatic1> oh, just use get current block or whatever its called and then use the last hash
1413 2013-06-07 16:03:26 <enigmuriatic1> i understand now, thanks
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1438 2013-06-07 16:32:33 <helo> oh neat, haven't seen this before "ignoring large orphan tx"
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1470 2013-06-07 16:56:17 <enigmuriatic1> how do i set verbose=1 in this? its keeps telling me it has an error parsing the JSON on whatever form of verbose=1 I use. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Raw_Transactions#getrawtransaction_.3Ctxid.3E_.5Bverbose.3D0.5D
1471 2013-06-07 16:56:40 <enigmuriatic1> for example, i put it before and after the txid, and in brackets and not in brackets, but it wont recognize it
1472 2013-06-07 16:57:10 <sipa> how do you call it?
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1474 2013-06-07 16:58:10 <enigmuriatic1> bitcoind getrawtransaction a497afcb5d982b67449409b245161abf8a5f84ae3560b6de50b15bf5f662eef0 [verbose=1]
1475 2013-06-07 16:58:12 <enigmuriatic1> sipa
1476 2013-06-07 16:58:16 <enigmuriatic1> the transaction is valid
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1478 2013-06-07 16:58:54 <sipa> just 0 or 1
1479 2013-06-07 16:59:03 <sipa> ./bitcoind getrawtransaction a497afcb5d982b67449409b245161abf8a5f84ae3560b6de50b15bf5f662eef0 1
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1482 2013-06-07 17:00:31 <enigmuriatic1> ah thanks sipa
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1499 2013-06-07 17:25:53 <ecoloco> whats happend to bitcoin? 107$ / Bitcoin now:S from 135$+
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1501 2013-06-07 17:28:44 <Ry4an> sounds like a great question for #bitcoin
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1503 2013-06-07 17:30:15 <wumpus> #bitcoin-pricetalk even
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1520 2013-06-07 17:43:12 <clav8> can someone explain how bitcoin achieves this? "For security reasons, previous backups of the unencrypted wallet file will become useless as soon as you start using the new, encrypted wallet."
1521 2013-06-07 17:43:54 <clav8> wouldn't unencrypted previous backups still contain the required private keys?
1522 2013-06-07 17:43:58 <wumpus> clav8: it generates new private keys
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1525 2013-06-07 17:44:26 <wumpus> clav8: which are born encrypted, the old private keys are still there but marked as used so they'll not be given out when you create an address
1526 2013-06-07 17:46:19 <wumpus> clav8: this is because of security concerns that the old private keys could still be lingering on the disk, in the unallocated parts of the file system
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1528 2013-06-07 17:46:56 <wumpus> of course, your coins are still on the old private keys, so if you want to be fully sure you could send all your coins to a newly generated address
1529 2013-06-07 17:47:09 <clav8> wumpus: makes sense. i was just curious as to how it achieves this. thanks
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1531 2013-06-07 17:48:34 <jgarzik> For a few situations like the one just described, it would be nice for the client to offer to sweep funds into new keys
1532 2013-06-07 17:48:59 <jgarzik> Need that sort of thing for private key import (such as from casascius coin or scratch-off)
1533 2013-06-07 17:49:46 <FlyingLeap_> is a sweep just an automatic send to new address?
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1535 2013-06-07 17:50:28 <wumpus> sweep from private keys would indeed be nice, and @FlyingLeap_ no they don't need to be already in the wallet
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1537 2013-06-07 17:51:18 <wumpus> and they won't get added to the wallet either
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1543 2013-06-07 17:57:13 <FlyingLeap> thx
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1557 2013-06-07 18:09:37 <enigmuriatic1> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.0/   here it says that they store a database of every transaction if you run "bitcoind -txindex=1 -reindex=1" once. does anyone know where this database is stored
1558 2013-06-07 18:09:39 <enigmuriatic1> ?
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1562 2013-06-07 18:15:51 <wumpus> $datadir/blocks/index
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1582 2013-06-07 18:41:09 <enigmuriatic1> wumpus, it's all in hex, apparently?
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1586 2013-06-07 18:46:38 <jgarzik> enigmuriatic1, you need to be able to parse hex data into binary, and then raw binary into binary data structures
1587 2013-06-07 18:47:00 <enigmuriatic1> jgarzik, i think its a leveldb doc
1588 2013-06-07 18:47:26 <enigmuriatic1> *database
1589 2013-06-07 18:47:43 <enigmuriatic1> blocks/index subdirectory  [v0.8 and above] A LevelDB database that contains metadata  about all known blocks, and where to find them on disk. Without this,  finding a block would be very slow.
1590 2013-06-07 18:47:43 defunctzombie is now known as defunctzombie_zz
1591 2013-06-07 18:47:48 <enigmuriatic1> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Data_directory
1592 2013-06-07 18:48:02 <jgarzik> enigmuriatic1, Yes.  I was describing the JSON-RPC query API.  blocks/index is a leveldb directory, to be accessed by leveldb-aware code.
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1594 2013-06-07 18:48:55 <enigmuriatic1> jgarzik, is there a leveldb program for ubuntu 13.04? i'm trying to find one and having trouble
1595 2013-06-07 18:49:43 <jgarzik> enigmuriatic1, it is a library.  You need to write a program, and link to that library.
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1601 2013-06-07 19:03:43 <dansmith_btc> Hi, can bitcoind work only with utxo? I mean can i delete the 10GB blockchain ?
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1604 2013-06-07 19:05:02 <gmaxwell> dansmith_btc: no
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1607 2013-06-07 19:07:57 <dansmith_btc> has there been an idea floating around of taking the hash of utxo, use it as a checkpoint and start a client with utxo only. Is there anything out there that implements this?
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1609 2013-06-07 19:08:11 <jgarzik> dansmith_btc, not yet
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1623 2013-06-07 19:25:15 <helo> should i be surprised at a 30% orphan rate while cpu mining on testnet?
1624 2013-06-07 19:25:29 <helo> (albeit a small sample size)
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1626 2013-06-07 19:26:59 <helo> oh, no inbound. i guess a 'real' miner would do a lot better than that...
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1763 2013-06-07 22:27:48 <Vinnie_win>  in a Doxygen comment what is the command that outputs the name of the thing being documented, into the output?
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1770 2013-06-07 22:46:21 <stevei> Hello - I'm looking for a little bit of help with a blockchain.info API call (the sendmany call, to be specific). Would anyone have a couple moments to explain something to me?
1771 2013-06-07 22:47:15 <stevei> I can't manage to encode my recipients correctly, I always get an 'unknown error' when I don't url-encode, and when I do, it says that there's no address
1772 2013-06-07 22:47:39 <stevei> thanks in advance.
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1791 2013-06-07 23:31:15 <melvster> current target
1792 2013-06-07 23:31:19 <melvster> 0000000000000113370000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
1793 2013-06-07 23:31:25 <melvster> is the 1337 a coincidence?
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1796 2013-06-07 23:34:30 <nanotube> melvster: nope, i'm sure it's deliberate
1797 2013-06-07 23:34:36 <nanotube> the miners all got together to target it
1798 2013-06-07 23:34:44 <melvster> ah
1799 2013-06-07 23:35:00 <melvster> O_o
1800 2013-06-07 23:35:35 <melvster> nanotube: are you still working on bitcoin otc?
1801 2013-06-07 23:36:13 <nanotube> mostly just letting it perpetuate itself. :)
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1803 2013-06-07 23:37:24 <melvster> nanotube: ive been meaning to bootstrap the web of trust to the web for some years ... if I gave you some very minimal markup to put in some of the tags, do you think you could add it ... it's likely just things like property="fingerprint"
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1811 2013-06-07 23:53:07 <nanotube> melvster: sure
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1815 2013-06-07 23:57:06 <Luke-Jr> nanotube: lol
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