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5 2013-06-08 00:09:30 <melvster> nanotube: great ... I'll run a thread on it at the W3C and get the market to you ...
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10 2013-06-08 00:16:38 <nanotube> sounds good :)
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15 2013-06-08 00:22:48 <Luke-Jr> melvster: bootstrapping IMO would be more like browser primatives to sign/verify stuff
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17 2013-06-08 00:23:18 <melvster> Luke-Jr: sure can do that too
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19 2013-06-08 00:23:30 <melvster> am working on that as well!
20 2013-06-08 00:23:50 <Luke-Jr> ie, no more registration/username/password
21 2013-06-08 00:24:06 <Luke-Jr> just sign a login prompt, or forum post, or whatever with your PGP key
22 2013-06-08 00:24:20 <melvster> Luke-Jr: sure ive been doing that for years
23 2013-06-08 00:24:39 <Luke-Jr> melvster: it needs to be integrated in browsers, before websites can start just replacing logins with it
24 2013-06-08 00:25:35 <melvster> Luke-Jr: yeah maybe crypto in the browser next year will help, but right now as a stop gap, I use my GPG key in an X.509 client certificate to login
25 2013-06-08 00:25:41 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
26 2013-06-08 00:26:08 <melvster> but x.509 certs are clunky
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30 2013-06-08 00:29:12 <melvster> Luke-Jr: X.509 client certs have been integrated into all major browsers for 10+ years ... but the user experience isnt great
31 2013-06-08 00:29:15 wamatt has joined
32 2013-06-08 00:29:30 <Luke-Jr> melvster: X.509? who uses X.509?
33 2013-06-08 00:29:44 <Luke-Jr> :p
34 2013-06-08 00:29:45 <melvster> Luke-Jr: Chrome, Opera, Firefox, IE
35 2013-06-08 00:29:54 <Luke-Jr> melvster: I mean *people* ;)
36 2013-06-08 00:30:07 <melvster> ah yeah .. probably just me and a couple of others lol
37 2013-06-08 00:30:10 tyn has joined
38 2013-06-08 00:30:18 <nsh> "crypto in the browser will make everything better"
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41 2013-06-08 00:30:39 <melvster> nsh: sort of ... but they only expose NSS which doesnt include bitcoin's curve :(
42 2013-06-08 00:30:43 <melvster> in ECDSA
43 2013-06-08 00:30:51 <melvster> so RSA based
44 2013-06-08 00:30:55 <nsh> they were my condescension quotes :)
45 2013-06-08 00:31:02 <melvster> lol
46 2013-06-08 00:31:19 Guest97588 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
47 2013-06-08 00:31:34 <melvster> the choice of the Koblitz curve was pretty random
48 2013-06-08 00:31:44 <nsh> unfortunately in the last 10 or so years i've been paying (a little) attention, GPG/PGP and user experience have yet to marry well
49 2013-06-08 00:32:04 <nsh> and most humans are not really capable of maintaining certificates
50 2013-06-08 00:32:24 * nsh still needs to learn more about curve curiosities
51 2013-06-08 00:32:25 <nsh> :)
52 2013-06-08 00:32:35 <melvster> yeah as slush said to me, 'technology made by geeks, FOR geeks' :P
53 2013-06-08 00:32:47 <nsh> aye
54 2013-06-08 00:32:56 <melvster> Koblitz is slightly faster but less well supported
55 2013-06-08 00:33:07 <melvster> im sure satoshi chose it carefully, but even he said it was kind of random
56 2013-06-08 00:33:12 <nsh> i assume Koblitz was chosen for some (potential) speed-ups, or because Satoshi knew some weaknesses NSAFBIGCHQLOL
57 2013-06-08 00:33:16 * nsh nods
58 2013-06-08 00:33:42 <phantomcircuit> melvster, iirc there are speedups in the curve bitcoin uses but also space savings
59 2013-06-08 00:33:54 <melvster> yes sure
60 2013-06-08 00:34:02 <nsh> phantomcircuit, any updates on the IsConfirmed behaviour?
61 2013-06-08 00:34:47 <phantomcircuit> nsh, yeah adding a cache fixed the behavior and resulting in a roughly 10 million times speed up for my specific case
62 2013-06-08 00:35:15 <phantomcircuit> to say it was the choke point would be a comical understatement
63 2013-06-08 00:35:40 * nsh smiles
64 2013-06-08 00:36:00 <nsh> do you know how common that kind of circuitousness would be in mainchain?
65 2013-06-08 00:36:42 <phantomcircuit> well it's only triggered when you have unconfirmed transactions in your wallet
66 2013-06-08 00:36:57 <nsh> right
67 2013-06-08 00:36:59 <phantomcircuit> so for most people that portion of IsConfirmed is pretty much irrelevant
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69 2013-06-08 00:37:25 <phantomcircuit> but since it's 3 transactions deep in the graph i would assume that it's actually fairly common
70 2013-06-08 00:37:34 * nsh nods
71 2013-06-08 00:37:43 <gmaxwell> I've actually considered the poor performance in that case to be a feature.
72 2013-06-08 00:37:44 <phantomcircuit> especially if you have btc coming directly from people being jerks
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74 2013-06-08 00:37:59 <gmaxwell> it stops people from dos attacking by doing a while true ; sendtoaddress.
75 2013-06-08 00:38:10 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yeah i heard the same thing from someone else, the problem is that IsConfirmed is also called from the GetBalance function
76 2013-06-08 00:38:19 <gmaxwell> because once you get to 20 or so deep it starts taking minues per transaction. :)
77 2013-06-08 00:38:26 <phantomcircuit> and is ultimately a fairly weak protection
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80 2013-06-08 00:38:55 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it would be trivial for me to generate a transaction which when sent to someone else made their wallet unusable until it was confirmed
81 2013-06-08 00:39:05 <phantomcircuit> and given it would be ludicrous
82 2013-06-08 00:39:09 <phantomcircuit> it's unlikely it would ever confirm
83 2013-06-08 00:39:12 <gmaxwell> I wouldn't reject a patch fixing it on that basis.
84 2013-06-08 00:39:16 <phantomcircuit> thus basically breaking their wallet
85 2013-06-08 00:39:25 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: hm. I don't believe you can do that with a single transaction.
86 2013-06-08 00:39:41 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, you can in the interest of not causing chaos i wont say how though
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89 2013-06-08 00:39:55 <gmaxwell> I guess you'd make it a long unconfirmed chain? it should stop traversing at the first ismine failures.
90 2013-06-08 00:40:32 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: are you considering that non-standard or non-sufficient-fee transactions would not be accepted by the node until confirmed?
91 2013-06-08 00:41:10 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, yes the transactions would be standard and could have a sufficient fee
92 2013-06-08 00:41:20 <phantomcircuit> (it would cost you a few cents maybe a dollar)
93 2013-06-08 00:41:27 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: then they'd confirm
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97 2013-06-08 00:43:45 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, maybe maybe not
98 2013-06-08 00:43:55 <phantomcircuit> either way it likely wouldn't confirm for a while
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106 2013-06-08 00:59:33 <CodeShark> I'm considering building some sort of mechanism to flood partially signed or unsigned transactions to specific sets of peers - but I want to make sure it can't be used to spam the bitcoin network. however, it would be nice to still use the peer discovery and relay capabilities of bitcoin somehow
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109 2013-06-08 01:00:09 <warren> what purpose?
110 2013-06-08 01:00:34 <CodeShark> there are two major use cases I can think of:
111 2013-06-08 01:01:00 <CodeShark> 1) allow a server to initiate some transaction but require user authorization (or signing by a more secure machine)
112 2013-06-08 01:01:12 <melvster> CodeShark: satoshi once said that flooding would divert programming effort from development to firefighting ... but that was a different time of course ...
113 2013-06-08 01:01:14 <CodeShark> 2) allow multiple users to sign a joint transaction
114 2013-06-08 01:01:46 <melvster> oh maybe im not understanding ... :)
115 2013-06-08 01:02:05 <CodeShark> I'm just talking about a mechanism to easily propagate partially signed or unsigned transactions to sets of peers
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118 2013-06-08 01:03:04 <melvster> ok got it
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123 2013-06-08 01:05:23 <CodeShark> I guess a third possible use case:
124 2013-06-08 01:05:50 <CodeShark> 3) allow for payment requests (invoicing, payment protocol)
125 2013-06-08 01:06:07 <CodeShark> but I'm most interested in (1) and (2) right now
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127 2013-06-08 01:10:34 <CodeShark> so the two ways to prevent this being used for spamming are either to filter them or to make it not free
128 2013-06-08 01:10:50 <warren> why does it need to go over the bitcoin network at all?
129 2013-06-08 01:10:53 Guest40878 is now known as pigeons
130 2013-06-08 01:11:01 <warren> bbl
131 2013-06-08 01:11:12 <CodeShark> it doesn't - but it would be nice to use the existing peer discovery/relay stuff
132 2013-06-08 01:11:38 <CodeShark> once specific node IP addresses are discovered, the message could be sent directly
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134 2013-06-08 01:12:52 <tgs3> so it is probably obvious to assume, all bitcoin transactions, and node2node messages where "PRISMed" too? (actually, echelon probably)?
135 2013-06-08 01:13:18 <tgs3> I understand node2node is not crypted because anyway MITM, but is there any way to help it (other then via tor)?
136 2013-06-08 01:13:28 <tgs3> on the bitcoin n2n protocol level
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139 2013-06-08 01:14:33 <CodeShark> I don't follow, tgs3
140 2013-06-08 01:14:39 <tgs3> which part?
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142 2013-06-08 01:14:53 <CodeShark> PRISMed? echelon?
143 2013-06-08 01:15:15 <CodeShark> are you talking about specific software?
144 2013-06-08 01:15:28 <CodeShark> ah...
145 2013-06-08 01:15:36 <CodeShark> never used https://drupal.org/project/node2node
146 2013-06-08 01:17:22 <CodeShark> this is what you're talking about?
147 2013-06-08 01:18:42 <tgs3> nooo
148 2013-06-08 01:18:53 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
149 2013-06-08 01:19:28 <tgs3> bitcoin node to node messages, are sent between nodes without encryption so that ISP, people that log them (NSA) and people who access their logs, can all easily see how bitcoin protocol information flows between nodes. right?
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152 2013-06-08 01:20:34 <CodeShark> I thought it was because encryption is considered a transport layer thing
153 2013-06-08 01:20:42 <tgs3> no
154 2013-06-08 01:21:13 <tgs3> it's because the nodes can anyway be easily MITMed if we just connect to random strangers from seeding points
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156 2013-06-08 01:21:30 <tgs3> we can do a darknet by doing -addpeer right
157 2013-06-08 01:22:00 <tgs3> so, how about enabling node to node encryption, for custom added peers. say AES or EC or any public crypto
158 2013-06-08 01:22:31 <tgs3> and then we would use -addpeer 1.2.3.4/fa:b5:18:ca:b2:.... so -addpeer IP/publickey
159 2013-06-08 01:22:32 <CodeShark> you could just add ssl, no?
160 2013-06-08 01:22:55 <tgs3> yes that could be probably also ssl, with declaring expected ssl fingerprint
161 2013-06-08 01:24:02 <CodeShark> right, so you'd need a signed certificate associating your IP address/domain with the keys
162 2013-06-08 01:24:46 <duSn> that don't sound anonymous
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164 2013-06-08 01:26:00 <CodeShark> of course it isn't anonymous
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168 2013-06-08 01:26:48 <CodeShark> if you're already identifying specific nodes by IP using -addpeer, presumably you know who they are
169 2013-06-08 01:29:00 <tgs3> this is for connecting with people you trust, to build a darknet
170 2013-06-08 01:29:13 <CodeShark> right
171 2013-06-08 01:29:25 <tgs3> so what to you think guys
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173 2013-06-08 01:29:54 <CodeShark> I think it could be useful
174 2013-06-08 01:30:02 <Luke-Jr> I think you'd want a way to specify a port too
175 2013-06-08 01:30:22 <tgs3> yea
176 2013-06-08 01:30:29 <CodeShark> and you might also want to define groups
177 2013-06-08 01:30:39 <CodeShark> so you can filter messages appropriately
178 2013-06-08 01:30:53 <CodeShark> i.e. join multiple groups
179 2013-06-08 01:31:20 macboz has joined
180 2013-06-08 01:31:46 <CodeShark> then in messages you could specify group ids
181 2013-06-08 01:31:54 <CodeShark> to tell peers to which groups to relay them
182 2013-06-08 01:32:15 <Luke-Jr> let's take a hint from cgminer and implement TCP/IP in bitcoind using raw sockets!
183 2013-06-08 01:32:21 <CodeShark> lol
184 2013-06-08 01:34:30 patcon has joined
185 2013-06-08 01:34:32 <duSn> why the lol?
186 2013-06-08 01:39:13 <CodeShark> because it's amazing that no decent standard sockets library for C++ really exists yet and we're still using berkeley sockets
187 2013-06-08 01:40:14 <CodeShark> TCP capabilities should be pretty much built into any modern programming language :p
188 2013-06-08 01:40:54 <CodeShark> or at least there should be a good standard library that fits the language idiom well
189 2013-06-08 01:41:27 <CodeShark> boost asio doesn't fully convince me
190 2013-06-08 01:41:55 bigbeninlondon has joined
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192 2013-06-08 01:46:12 <matjeh> CodeShark: and what's wrong with BSD sockets?
193 2013-06-08 01:46:17 bigbeninlondon has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
194 2013-06-08 01:46:21 * duSn won't tell CodeShark about freepascal and synapse
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196 2013-06-08 01:50:00 <matjeh> Luke-Jr: do you mean BSD sockets, or SOCK_RAW?
197 2013-06-08 01:50:14 fanquake has joined
198 2013-06-08 01:50:16 <matjeh> raw sockets is rather ambiguous :p
199 2013-06-08 01:50:36 <Luke-Jr> matjeh: SOCK_RAW :P
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201 2013-06-08 01:53:09 <matjeh> CodeShark: i can't see any reason why anything more complex than libev should be used. the problem is the async nature rather than OOP design
202 2013-06-08 01:54:18 <CodeShark> yes, you're right
203 2013-06-08 01:54:21 <matjeh> as soon as nonblocking sockets and select() gets into the source, its too late (HI CGMINER)
204 2013-06-08 01:55:26 <nsh> too late for what?
205 2013-06-08 01:56:04 <matjeh> too late for scalabilty and portability
206 2013-06-08 01:56:50 <Luke-Jr> â¦
207 2013-06-08 01:56:53 <Luke-Jr> select() *is* async
208 2013-06-08 01:57:20 <matjeh> its 1980's async
209 2013-06-08 01:57:28 <nsh> threading for portabilityt?
210 2013-06-08 01:57:52 <Luke-Jr> portable, scalable networking is basically impossible <.<
211 2013-06-08 01:57:58 <Luke-Jr> as long as Windows is included in portable
212 2013-06-08 01:58:02 <nsh> +1
213 2013-06-08 01:58:38 <Vinnie_win> what's all this talk about sockets?
214 2013-06-08 01:58:38 <nsh> bitcoind should be written in LLVM-based befunge
215 2013-06-08 01:59:04 <nsh> Vinnie_win, turns out networking is a silly place where they sing and dance and eat spam-a-lot
216 2013-06-08 01:59:14 <Vinnie_win> CodeShark: As far as I remember, "kernel queues" was the latest greatest thing for doing high performance sockets in Linux. They strongly resemble Windows "Completion Ports" so they can be implemented using a common C++ interface.
217 2013-06-08 01:59:16 <phantomcircuit> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228648.0;topicseen
218 2013-06-08 01:59:17 <phantomcircuit> lol
219 2013-06-08 01:59:21 <tgs3> CodeShark: c++ asio?
220 2013-06-08 01:59:23 <phantomcircuit> he mad
221 2013-06-08 01:59:41 <tgs3> CodeShark: c++ asio, what is it missing
222 2013-06-08 01:59:58 <Vinnie_win> boost::asio is bulky and cumbersome to use
223 2013-06-08 02:00:07 <Luke-Jr> btw, I was joking before
224 2013-06-08 02:00:10 <Luke-Jr> [01:08:25] <Luke-Jr> let's take a hint from cgminer and implement TCP/IP in bitcoind using raw sockets!
225 2013-06-08 02:00:15 <nsh> phantomcircuit, i'm sending the (wo)men with whitecoats and clipboards
226 2013-06-08 02:00:22 <phantomcircuit> nsh, ahaha
227 2013-06-08 02:00:29 <Vinnie_win> wat?
228 2013-06-08 02:00:39 <matjeh> i think my portable linux-2.6 (epoll)/freebsd (kqueue)/win32 (iocp) event interface is only 500 lines or so
229 2013-06-08 02:00:48 <matjeh> wrap the socket handles and you're done
230 2013-06-08 02:00:50 <phantomcircuit> it takes a special kind of person to get mad about that
231 2013-06-08 02:00:55 <Vinnie_win> https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat
232 2013-06-08 02:00:58 <Vinnie_win> ^^ wat !
233 2013-06-08 02:01:32 <Vinnie_win> matjeh: written in C?
234 2013-06-08 02:01:49 <Luke-Jr> matjeh: but you have to rewrite any standard UNIX code to work with it..
235 2013-06-08 02:02:02 <nsh> phantomcircuit, if may explain things somewhat that Phinnaeus Gage apparently lives in a sandwich
236 2013-06-08 02:02:04 <matjeh> libev is pretty bad on win32, i'd probably use libevent there
237 2013-06-08 02:02:06 <nsh> in Illinois
238 2013-06-08 02:02:12 <Luke-Jr> because IOCP paradigm is limited
239 2013-06-08 02:02:13 <tgs3> phantomcircuit: I read that and no idea what that is about
240 2013-06-08 02:02:22 <phantomcircuit> tgs3, lol
241 2013-06-08 02:02:32 <nsh> i mean the latter is bad enough, but to be permanently trapped between two slices of bread while posting furiously to bitcointroll
242 2013-06-08 02:02:39 <nsh> it'd be enough to test any man's sanity
243 2013-06-08 02:02:47 <phantomcircuit> tgs3, just phinnaeus gage demonstrating how crazy he is
244 2013-06-08 02:03:12 <phantomcircuit> i created a thread in off topic as self moderated with the subject "wat"
245 2013-06-08 02:03:13 Fnar has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
246 2013-06-08 02:03:17 <phantomcircuit> and delete anything that's posted
247 2013-06-08 02:03:22 <nsh> lol
248 2013-06-08 02:03:30 <nsh> DELETIONIST
249 2013-06-08 02:03:30 <phantomcircuit> and he got mad that i deleted his nonsense post
250 2013-06-08 02:03:36 <matjeh> Luke-Jr: if you mean refactor the hoards of select()'s in pthreads/fork()'d child processes into epoll fd groups (abstracted into an API), then yea... is that a bad thing?
251 2013-06-08 02:03:43 <tgs3> maybe he really doesnt like cenorship
252 2013-06-08 02:03:56 <tgs3> :)
253 2013-06-08 02:04:04 <phantomcircuit> tgs3, lol
254 2013-06-08 02:04:56 macboz has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
255 2013-06-08 02:05:40 <Luke-Jr> matjeh: refactoring select() to epoll is trivial. refactoring select/epoll to IOCP is not at all
256 2013-06-08 02:05:52 <nsh> ;;google IOCP
257 2013-06-08 02:05:53 <gribble> Interfaith Outreach & Community Partners: Homepage: <http://www.iocp.org/>; Input/output completion port - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input/output_completion_port>; Configuring IOCP on AIX - IBM DB2 9.7 for Linux, UNIX, and Windows: <http://pic.dhe.ibm.com/infocenter/db2luw/v9r7/topic/com.ibm.db2.luw.admin.perf.doc/doc/t0054518.html>
258 2013-06-08 02:06:00 <Luke-Jr> O.o
259 2013-06-08 02:06:39 <nsh> sounds awful tbh
260 2013-06-08 02:07:03 <Luke-Jr> lol
261 2013-06-08 02:07:09 <nsh> ;;google list of solaris features requested by linux developers
262 2013-06-08 02:07:10 <gribble> Solaris Operating System - Feature FAQs - Oracle: <http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/server-storage/solaris/overview/faq-jsp-140588.html>; Red Hat Enterprise Linux to Oracle Solaris Porting Guide: <http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/server-storage/solaris11/documentation/o12-026-linux2solaris-guide-1686620.pdf>; TCPDUMP/LIBPCAP public repository: <http://www.tcpdump.org/>
263 2013-06-08 02:07:15 <Luke-Jr> nsh: it's basically the only way to do scalable networking on Windows
264 2013-06-08 02:07:17 <nsh> yeah, thought so :)
265 2013-06-08 02:07:33 <nsh> Luke-Jr, i'll take your word for it
266 2013-06-08 02:08:27 <Luke-Jr> *unless* you design the code *just right* that you can use WSAPoll despite its bugs
267 2013-06-08 02:08:39 <Luke-Jr> and don't mind being Vista or newer only
268 2013-06-08 02:09:03 <Luke-Jr> but since WSAPoll is broken, I'm not sure anyone's tested that it scales either..
269 2013-06-08 02:09:33 <nsh> how much is there to break in poll call?
270 2013-06-08 02:09:49 <matjeh> i wouldnt be suprised if it was a wrapper for WSAWaitForMultipleEvents, which in turn was a wrapper for WaitForMultipleObjects
271 2013-06-08 02:10:22 <Luke-Jr> matjeh: WaitForMultipleObjects has a limit of like 32 things
272 2013-06-08 02:10:31 * nsh reads http://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2012/10/10/wsapoll-is-broken/
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274 2013-06-08 02:11:08 Fnar has joined
275 2013-06-08 02:11:44 <matjeh> Luke-Jr: coincidentally, so does WSAWaitForMultipleEvents hehe
276 2013-06-08 02:11:53 <nsh> "It turns out Microsoft already knew about this bug, which they apparently have named âWindows 8 Bugs 309411 â WSAPoll does not report failed connectionsâ. The ticket has been resolved as Wonât Fix⦠(I havenât found any public access of this.)"
277 2013-06-08 02:12:25 <nsh> well, to be fair, correctly reporting failed connections is only really a rare edge case of poll functionality
278 2013-06-08 02:12:29 * nsh sighs
279 2013-06-08 02:12:42 <matjeh> hah
280 2013-06-08 02:13:13 <Luke-Jr> I guess as long as you use another thread with select() to wait on pending connections, you're ok
281 2013-06-08 02:13:23 <Luke-Jr> WSA select() sucks really bad though
282 2013-06-08 02:14:17 fourlights has joined
283 2013-06-08 02:14:18 <Luke-Jr> fd_set uses a stupid array (or linked list?) and iterates over it for every FS_SET
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285 2013-06-08 02:17:17 <Arnavion> Why do you think IOCP's are more limited than select(), Luke-Jr?
286 2013-06-08 02:17:41 <Luke-Jr> Arnavion: there is no such thing as "readable" or "writable"
287 2013-06-08 02:17:48 <Luke-Jr> you need to *actually* read/write to get anything done
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289 2013-06-08 02:18:21 <Arnavion> Yes, so?
290 2013-06-08 02:18:28 <Luke-Jr> which is arguably sufficient for any reasonable purposes, but you *can* emulate IOCP paradigm with select(), but not vice-versa
291 2013-06-08 02:18:46 <Luke-Jr> and to port select()-designed code to IOCP means basically rewriting it
292 2013-06-08 02:18:50 Wild_Bill has quit (Quit: Some folks are wise, and some otherwise.)
293 2013-06-08 02:19:49 <Arnavion> Hmm
294 2013-06-08 02:19:57 <Arnavion> How would you emulate IOCP with select() ?
295 2013-06-08 02:20:02 <Vinnie_win> IOCPs work great, you can write high performance servers with it.
296 2013-06-08 02:20:06 <Arnavion> select won't tell you when the operation has ended, right?
297 2013-06-08 02:20:14 bigbeninlondon has joined
298 2013-06-08 02:20:24 * Arnavion isn't very familiar with socket programming
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301 2013-06-08 02:21:29 <Luke-Jr> Arnavion: just store the read/write info in a buffer, select, when there's readable, read, call callback, etc
302 2013-06-08 02:21:47 <Luke-Jr> Arnavion: select() tells you write your operation is guaranteed to be non-blocking
303 2013-06-08 02:21:49 <Arnavion> Ah yes, of course
304 2013-06-08 02:22:02 <Arnavion> You'd have to maintain the buffer yourself, got it
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306 2013-06-08 02:23:33 <Luke-Jr> I suppose if you reimplement the *whole* BSD sockets layer, you could emulate epoll on IOCP..
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308 2013-06-08 02:24:32 <matjeh> well, you can emulate IOCP/AIO with multiple blocking threads each with its read/write, and a bunch of semaphores. thats pretty much what the crappy POSIX AIO lib used to do
309 2013-06-08 02:24:45 <matjeh> but noone wants that
310 2013-06-08 02:25:00 <Luke-Jr> matjeh: I'd emulate it with epoll.
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324 2013-06-08 02:37:23 <drow-ubvm> anyone have a java implementation of gox socket with the callback function already made? ^^
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328 2013-06-08 02:39:16 <warren> Did the alt clients like bitcoinj previously implement the same v2 lock-in, or did it just rely on longest chain?
329 2013-06-08 02:39:23 defunctzombie_zz is now known as defunctzombie
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342 2013-06-08 02:53:42 <shesek> Can I use bitcoind only for sending raw transactions, without having it download the blockchain?
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366 2013-06-08 03:28:31 <shesek> are "wallet import" formatted private keys always 51 characters long?
367 2013-06-08 03:31:19 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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379 2013-06-08 03:44:55 <Luke-Jr> shesek: no
380 2013-06-08 03:45:15 <shesek> what's their length range?
381 2013-06-08 03:45:43 <Luke-Jr> why do you assume a fixed length?
382 2013-06-08 03:45:46 <shesek> I am validating the checksum, its for an earlier regex-based test
383 2013-06-08 03:46:43 <shesek> I just need to distinguish between public key (in hex format) and private keys (in base58 format) with some minimal sanity checks
384 2013-06-08 03:47:07 <shesek> The checksum is validated separately afterwards
385 2013-06-08 03:48:34 yubrew has joined
386 2013-06-08 03:49:31 <Luke-Jr> 51-52
387 2013-06-08 03:49:43 <Luke-Jr> what are you doing with keys anyway?
388 2013-06-08 03:50:38 agnostic98 has joined
389 2013-06-08 03:51:06 <Luke-Jr> /^(?:5[\dA-Za-z]{50}|[KL][\dA-Za-z]{51})$/
390 2013-06-08 03:51:45 <shesek> I'm working on some project that helps use escrow (m-of-n) transactions
391 2013-06-08 03:52:11 <shesek> K and L is for compressed keys, right?
392 2013-06-08 03:53:01 <Luke-Jr> IIRC
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402 2013-06-08 04:05:08 <Neozonz> Disc!~Neozonz@unaffiliated/neozonz|http://www.reddit.com/r/litecoin/comments/1fwpgs/if_we_reach_200mhash_by_june_15th_1200am_we_will/
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433 2013-06-08 04:57:19 <Ry4an> mymutt
434 2013-06-08 04:57:27 <Ry4an> (*sigh* sorry)
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510 2013-06-08 08:22:01 <dansmith_btc> Hello, I have this output script OP_HASH160 168d84b7bb0e0c36de927f83fda3c915fbe5a3f6 OP_EQUAL and an address to which this output was allegedly sent. How can I ascertain that this output was indeed sent to my address?
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516 2013-06-08 08:31:09 <Scrat> dansmith_btc: hm, base58check that hash? (skipping the first few steps)
517 2013-06-08 08:33:14 Odyessus has joined
518 2013-06-08 08:33:46 <Scrat> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Technical_background_of_Bitcoin_addresses
519 2013-06-08 08:33:49 <Scrat> step 4 onwards
520 2013-06-08 08:37:35 MC1984 has joined
521 2013-06-08 08:38:35 agnostic98 has joined
522 2013-06-08 08:38:44 <Scrat> oh, b.i will tell you the 160 hash of an address
523 2013-06-08 08:39:00 <Scrat> so you can compare
524 2013-06-08 08:39:51 dfdf has joined
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539 2013-06-08 09:20:59 <tonikt> Should a node be announcing its own IP via "addr" messages, or it doesn't make a sense?
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544 2013-06-08 09:35:36 ecoloco has joined
545 2013-06-08 09:36:55 <ecoloco> Is it true that the Bitcoin had a low value all the time (less than 50$ / per Bitcoin)? That it is only in recent months that it have been worth 110$+ / per Bitcoin?
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551 2013-06-08 09:40:28 <SomeoneWeird> ecoloco, yes
552 2013-06-08 09:40:36 <SomeoneWeird> it was once $0.00001 / btc
553 2013-06-08 09:43:05 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
554 2013-06-08 09:45:50 <duSn> the only problem is that there is no such thing as $0.00001 - the smallest us denomination is a mill - 1/10 of a penny
555 2013-06-08 09:46:27 <ecoloco> Then I just have to wait until the value drops again (bubble bursts) and all my Bitcoin lose value by 50-100%
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557 2013-06-08 09:52:09 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
558 2013-06-08 09:57:55 <matjeh> and then, buy buy buy!
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572 2013-06-08 10:14:40 <Luke-Jr> ecoloco: you're assuming it will :p
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579 2013-06-08 10:22:19 <ecoloco> Luke-Jr: assuming what?
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591 2013-06-08 11:03:28 <malexmedia> does anybody have any experience running a bitcoin node over a Tor circuit? i have 9 connections currently and i'm curious to know how long it might take to grow to a reasonable (30+?) connection count
592 2013-06-08 11:03:36 metabyte_ has joined
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594 2013-06-08 11:04:39 <malexmedia> i have no problems opening a port on my firewall, etc. etc.. i am doing using -onlynet=Tor to academically experiment with routing all Bitcoin network over Tor
595 2013-06-08 11:04:54 <malexmedia> just trying to see if the use of Tor will penalize a bitcoin user
596 2013-06-08 11:05:36 <gmaxwell> malexmedia: you will never have more than ~8 unless you configure a hidden service (see Tor.txt in the docs directory)
597 2013-06-08 11:05:54 metabyte has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
598 2013-06-08 11:08:26 <malexmedia> gmaxwell: thanks; i have 9 now due to following those instructions
599 2013-06-08 11:08:56 <malexmedia> the reason for my question is because it seems that my connection count usually grows much faster when i'm connecting over the plain internet
600 2013-06-08 11:09:00 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
601 2013-06-08 11:09:52 <malexmedia> my ISP only provides IPv4 connectivity, but i have a working IPv6 tunnel set up at the router
602 2013-06-08 11:10:44 metabyte_ is now known as metabyte
603 2013-06-08 11:11:55 denom has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
604 2013-06-08 11:12:04 <malexmedia> so academically, my question is, are Tor-restricted bitcoin users going to be penalized for using Tor by having a perpetually narrow "view" of the network?
605 2013-06-08 11:12:28 <SomeoneWeird> well everything gets relayed
606 2013-06-08 11:13:08 <malexmedia> yeah, although your latency will presumably be higher if you have fewer connections
607 2013-06-08 11:13:16 gweedo has joined
608 2013-06-08 11:14:07 mrdavis has joined
609 2013-06-08 11:14:08 QQCrypt has joined
610 2013-06-08 11:14:09 <malexmedia> and if there aren't enough bitcoin nodes bridging the gap between Tor-only and Internet-only clients, that latency could be really high
611 2013-06-08 11:14:25 horace has joined
612 2013-06-08 11:14:48 <QQCrypt> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228975.0 <-------??
613 2013-06-08 11:14:48 Fnar has quit (Quit: Client exiting)
614 2013-06-08 11:15:01 <gmaxwell> malexmedia: the reason you aren't rapidly getting tons of conncetions is because there are generally enough.
615 2013-06-08 11:15:52 <malexmedia> gmaxwell: is that why the minimum number of connections was reduced?
616 2013-06-08 11:16:27 <gmaxwell> QQCrypt: I see nothing interesting in my immediate scroll back, and a quick grep turns up nothing.
617 2013-06-08 11:16:38 <gmaxwell> QQCrypt: might just be some moron trying to manipulate the price.
618 2013-06-08 11:16:39 <malexmedia> QQCrypt: 0_-
619 2013-06-08 11:16:47 <QQCrypt> hrmm
620 2013-06-08 11:16:52 <gmaxwell> malexmedia: the minimum number of connections?
621 2013-06-08 11:17:06 dusty_ has joined
622 2013-06-08 11:17:40 <nsh> it's definitively not been discussed her in the last 24h (tampering with builds)
623 2013-06-08 11:18:02 <nsh> *here
624 2013-06-08 11:18:12 <malexmedia> gmaxwell: i recall it being 15 before
625 2013-06-08 11:18:16 gabi has joined
626 2013-06-08 11:18:16 <malexmedia> now it's 8
627 2013-06-08 11:18:22 <gmaxwell> malexmedia: You recall incorrectly.
628 2013-06-08 11:18:27 <malexmedia> the number of connections before bitcoind stops trying to connect out
629 2013-06-08 11:18:31 <malexmedia> oh ok
630 2013-06-08 11:18:38 gweedo has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
631 2013-06-08 11:18:49 horace has quit (Client Quit)
632 2013-06-08 11:19:00 <malexmedia> btw, any idea why that number isn't configurable?
633 2013-06-08 11:19:22 <gmaxwell> It is, you can reduce it by reducing your maximum connection count.
634 2013-06-08 11:20:00 <gmaxwell> It can't be increased because 8 is almost certantly overkill already and people will ignorantly turn it up and unintentionally degrade the network for others if its just a totally free parameter.
635 2013-06-08 11:20:00 <malexmedia> i mean why we can't configure the minimum number of connections before bitcoind stops trying to establish new outgoing connections
636 2013-06-08 11:20:29 gabi has left ()
637 2013-06-08 11:20:53 monsteralarm has joined
638 2013-06-08 11:20:53 <malexmedia> i don't want to succumb to a naive "moar is bettar" mentality, but intuitively it seems that more connections should improve network strength
639 2013-06-08 11:21:00 <malexmedia> up to a certain point
640 2013-06-08 11:21:07 <malexmedia> i guess i just walked into your argument though
641 2013-06-08 11:21:19 <nsh> intuitively, everything is a configuration options in gdb
642 2013-06-08 11:21:23 <nsh> *option
643 2013-06-08 11:21:48 <malexmedia> would you mind explaining why 8 connections is overkill?
644 2013-06-08 11:22:02 <malexmedia> brb
645 2013-06-08 11:22:18 <gmaxwell> malexmedia: because even four has an infinitesmal probablity of chance partitioning.
646 2013-06-08 11:22:26 icey has joined
647 2013-06-08 11:23:33 <gmaxwell> Basically the only sorts of attacks where larger numbers can help are ones where you'd need hundreds and the network can not support more than handfull of users running large numbers of connections.
648 2013-06-08 11:23:45 <nsh> ("You are now leaving Intuition. Thank your for driving safely through our town.")
649 2013-06-08 11:23:55 BGL has joined
650 2013-06-08 11:24:07 patcon has joined
651 2013-06-08 11:24:07 QQCrypt has left ("Leaving")
652 2013-06-08 11:24:28 <nsh> gmaxwell, i think he meant in terms of the particular node's performance, not network integrity per se
653 2013-06-08 11:25:23 monsteralarm has quit (Client Quit)
654 2013-06-08 11:25:25 <nsh> in any case, the optimum number of connections will depend on the distribution of link quality and various factors such as socket creation and teardown overhead, etc.
655 2013-06-08 11:25:42 <gmaxwell> "performance"
656 2013-06-08 11:25:59 <gmaxwell> Vague terminology detected.
657 2013-06-08 11:26:27 * nsh nods
658 2013-06-08 11:26:52 <shesek> is it just me or blockchain.info's unspent api gives the wrong transaction hashes?
659 2013-06-08 11:27:03 <shesek> see http://blockchain.info/address/1GxGURcpMjYiGoUNLAt6vArm4gGkjF3KGV and http://blockchain.info/unspent?active=1GxGURcpMjYiGoUNLAt6vArm4gGkjF3KGV
660 2013-06-08 11:27:26 <gmaxwell> With perhaps the exception of mining, a second or two here or thereâ what you might expect from suboptimal topologyâ doesn't generally matter for bitcoin usage.
661 2013-06-08 11:27:38 <shesek> each of them has different transactions
662 2013-06-08 11:27:45 sark has quit (!~sark@37-252-106-157.ip.skylogicnet.com|Read error: Connection timed out)
663 2013-06-08 11:28:38 Odyessus has joined
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665 2013-06-08 11:29:50 <shesek> oh, my bad. the bytes are just reversed
666 2013-06-08 11:29:52 sark has joined
667 2013-06-08 11:32:55 skfax has joined
668 2013-06-08 11:33:40 <skfax> Are there any good APIs which allow for client-side javascript to pull info on transactions sent to an address?
669 2013-06-08 11:34:43 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
670 2013-06-08 11:35:43 john_z has joined
671 2013-06-08 11:37:12 <malexmedia> back; thanks gmaxwell and nsh
672 2013-06-08 11:37:13 <skfax> I guess the blockexplorer API is exactly what I want
673 2013-06-08 11:39:53 <ne0futur> peerhaps you should look at bitping too
674 2013-06-08 11:39:57 Odyessus has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
675 2013-06-08 11:40:03 <ne0futur> https://github.com/MORA99/BitPing.Net
676 2013-06-08 11:41:30 <skfax> ne0futur: cool. thank you
677 2013-06-08 11:42:47 MKCoin has joined
678 2013-06-08 11:43:31 <skfax> sucks that the blockexplorer testnet has been down for a couple of weeks :/
679 2013-06-08 11:43:45 dusty_ has quit (Quit: Page closed)
680 2013-06-08 11:48:18 <malexmedia> how many confirmations are required before getbalance shows a credit?
681 2013-06-08 11:48:58 <SomeoneWeird> 6
682 2013-06-08 11:49:06 <SomeoneWeird> 120 if it's immature
683 2013-06-08 11:50:45 <nsh> .t
684 2013-06-08 11:52:27 ThomasV has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
685 2013-06-08 11:53:36 <wumpus> it will show the balance after 1 confirm, in case of normal transactions, in case of mined transactions indeed after 120
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691 2013-06-08 11:56:32 <matjeh> is 120 derived empirically, or is it a number which is just 'large enough'?
692 2013-06-08 11:57:04 <matjeh> also, who the hell is is mining the testnet lol
693 2013-06-08 11:57:50 <duSn> 120 is (2^7)-8
694 2013-06-08 11:58:44 <matjeh> so my question then is, what is the significance of 2, 7, and 8?
695 2013-06-08 11:58:46 <matjeh> :D
696 2013-06-08 11:58:51 <malexmedia> matjeh: i've been mining on the testnet; only with about 250 ghash/sec though
697 2013-06-08 11:59:09 <malexmedia> i'm experimenting with all the various pieces of mining pool software
698 2013-06-08 11:59:48 <matjeh> malexmedia: not sure if serious or not
699 2013-06-08 12:01:20 patcon has joined
700 2013-06-08 12:01:35 <malexmedia> matjeh: ?
701 2013-06-08 12:02:05 <edcba> matjeh: it's magic, you can't explain it
702 2013-06-08 12:02:24 bigbeninlondon has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
703 2013-06-08 12:02:38 <edcba> ok now if you are talking about some numbers about confirmations there is the bitcoin paper for that
704 2013-06-08 12:02:38 <malexmedia> oh lol, i meant 250 mhash/sec
705 2013-06-08 12:02:50 <malexmedia> sheesh... i WISH
706 2013-06-08 12:03:36 <matjeh> that would be a good troll, point a few avalons at testnet
707 2013-06-08 12:03:40 <matjeh> no test coins for anyone
708 2013-06-08 12:03:45 bigbeninlondon has joined
709 2013-06-08 12:03:46 <duSn> matjeh: just the secrets for you 2 is the third Fibonacci number, and the third and fifth Perrin numbers. 7 is the aliquot sum of one number, the cubic number 8 and is the base of the 7-aliquot tree. 8 is the first number to be the aliquot sum of two numbers other than itself; the discrete biprime 10, and the square number 49.
710 2013-06-08 12:04:03 ThomasV has joined
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715 2013-06-08 12:09:18 <matjeh> main.h:static const int COINBASE_MATURITY = 100;
716 2013-06-08 12:09:24 <matjeh> and no explaination in the comment
717 2013-06-08 12:09:40 <matjeh> i love magic numbers
718 2013-06-08 12:10:03 <SomeoneWeird> so does satoshi & gavin
719 2013-06-08 12:10:12 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
720 2013-06-08 12:10:15 <SomeoneWeird> they especially like it if you give them private keys
721 2013-06-08 12:11:20 <malexmedia> so, is #bitcoin always so heated?
722 2013-06-08 12:11:56 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
723 2013-06-08 12:11:59 <malexmedia> it seems trolltastic
724 2013-06-08 12:12:05 <duSn> malexmedia: shidiots generate tons of heat
725 2013-06-08 12:12:22 <SomeoneWeird> yeaaaah i'm about to ban them
726 2013-06-08 12:12:24 Thepok has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
727 2013-06-08 12:12:41 <sipa> matjeh: 100 is the network rule, and it's probably overkill
728 2013-06-08 12:12:45 fourlights has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
729 2013-06-08 12:13:26 <sipa> matjeh: 120 as enforced by the client before spending is to prevent some edge cases around the boundary, but the 20 there is certainly overkill
730 2013-06-08 12:14:47 fourlights has joined
731 2013-06-08 12:14:53 <matjeh> sipa: ok thanks
732 2013-06-08 12:15:34 <gmaxwell> 2 there would likely be more than enough. It basically avoids the case where you spend but your txn doesn't propagate well because the network hasn't caught up with the chain yet... but it hardly seems to matter.. 120 vs 102.. meh.
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768 2013-06-08 13:45:51 <dansmith_btc> Is there somebody running (commercially or gratis) a bitcoind server with txindex=1 ,to which i could RPC and do getrawtransaction()?
769 2013-06-08 13:46:49 <sipa> is running it yourself that hard?
770 2013-06-08 13:48:04 <dansmith_btc> sipa, my app which users will run on blockchain-less machines needs getrawtx
771 2013-06-08 13:48:18 <sipa> what for?
772 2013-06-08 13:48:57 <dansmith_btc> to get raw information about a transaction - inputs, outputs, you know
773 2013-06-08 13:49:04 Neozonz has joined
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776 2013-06-08 13:49:22 <sipa> that's a means and not a goal
777 2013-06-08 13:49:25 bigbeninlondon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
778 2013-06-08 13:49:32 <sipa> what do you need the raw transaction data for?
779 2013-06-08 13:50:09 <dansmith_btc> sipa, to ascertain that a certain tx contains outputs as claimed by the counter-party
780 2013-06-08 13:50:53 <sipa> why can't the counterparty just show those transactions?
781 2013-06-08 13:50:56 <dansmith_btc> b.i, won't cut it because it has absolutely no respect for multisig addresses - b.i just mangles the multisig address
782 2013-06-08 13:50:58 <sipa> it must know them
783 2013-06-08 13:51:32 <CodeShark> I can think of plenty of reasons why b.i. won't cut it - but that's not one of them
784 2013-06-08 13:51:43 patcon has joined
785 2013-06-08 13:52:32 <tumak> dansmith_btc: electrum servers know all transactions if thats what you're asking
786 2013-06-08 13:52:35 <sipa> also, i'm very suspicious if you now are goig to rely on two centralized services to provide a solution that aima at reducing trust...
787 2013-06-08 13:53:04 <sipa> (not impossible, but there are certainly more weird cases to look at)
788 2013-06-08 13:53:37 <tumak> (and if this is about CC, then yes, using electrum-server is probably much better idea than just stock bitcoind)
789 2013-06-08 13:53:45 TD_ has joined
790 2013-06-08 13:53:58 <CodeShark> CC?
791 2013-06-08 13:54:00 <dansmith_btc> party A send tx and before it gets included into a block party B has to have at least some assurance that tx has been send (doublespend is not an issue)
792 2013-06-08 13:54:33 <sipa> define 'sent' ?
793 2013-06-08 13:54:37 <tumak> CodeShark: various kinds of inchain property tracking via special txes
794 2013-06-08 13:54:57 <sipa> ah, colored coins
795 2013-06-08 13:55:10 <dansmith_btc> sipa, sent as sendrawtransaction and the tx is in a mempool
796 2013-06-08 13:55:10 <CodeShark> you could have just said colored coins :P
797 2013-06-08 13:55:17 <tumak> CC :)
798 2013-06-08 13:55:22 <sipa> dansmith_btc: whose mempool?
799 2013-06-08 13:55:56 <dansmith_btc> the server which hosts bitcoind, the server I asked about initially
800 2013-06-08 13:56:09 <tumak> dansmith_btc: relying on mempools is terrible idea :(
801 2013-06-08 13:56:25 <sipa> i'm still very confused about what you want to accomplish
802 2013-06-08 13:57:14 <tumak> probably reference txid of yet-to-be-included-in-block from yet another tx?
803 2013-06-08 13:57:36 <sipa> doing something like that requires proving that the transaction is valud too
804 2013-06-08 13:57:39 <tumak> (if thats the case, thats close to impossible to do in pure p2p fashion as thats why we have pow consensus in the first place)
805 2013-06-08 13:57:50 <sipa> which is borderline impossoble without running a full node yourself
806 2013-06-08 13:59:33 TD_ has quit (Quit: TD_)
807 2013-06-08 14:01:11 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
808 2013-06-08 14:01:27 <dansmith_btc> well, thanks for the responses, I'll take that as a "No" to my initial question :)
809 2013-06-08 14:01:46 <CodeShark> I could set up a server that exposes getrawtransaction for you - but it'll cost you a bunch :)
810 2013-06-08 14:02:05 cads has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
811 2013-06-08 14:02:59 <CodeShark> I'd recommend you set one up yourself
812 2013-06-08 14:03:00 <dansmith_btc> CodeShark, sounds good. I'll get back to you later with a more concrete proposition.
813 2013-06-08 14:03:15 <CodeShark> ok :)
814 2013-06-08 14:03:37 <dansmith_btc> sure, I could do it myself, I just thought somebody is already doing it for a reasonable cost
815 2013-06-08 14:04:36 <CodeShark> for the right price I could even give you a full streaming API with queueing capabilities :)
816 2013-06-08 14:04:57 <CodeShark> and custom filters
817 2013-06-08 14:05:35 <dansmith_btc> my idea of the price is 1$ per 10000 getrawtx queries
818 2013-06-08 14:05:55 <CodeShark> how many queries do you expect to be running daily?
819 2013-06-08 14:06:06 <dansmith_btc> 10K a day
820 2013-06-08 14:06:43 qwertyoruiop has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
821 2013-06-08 14:06:51 <CodeShark> hmmm - find me a couple other people who also will be doing 10K a day for the same price and it's a deal :)
822 2013-06-08 14:06:56 <tumak> sipa: btw, wrt modular inverse for secp256k1, any idea why djb uses fermat's inv = x^(p-2) % p? i mean that thing must be horribly slow compared to bingcdext, yet it's there - https://github.com/agl/curve25519-donna/blob/master/curve25519-donna.c#L644
823 2013-06-08 14:07:16 <tumak> sipa: maybe the parallelized carry-less muls are super efficient on modern cpus?
824 2013-06-08 14:07:49 <sipa> tumak: i'm pretty sure it is horribly slow
825 2013-06-08 14:08:00 <tumak> sl k
826 2013-06-08 14:08:08 <tumak> so its just timing attacks paranoia, eh
827 2013-06-08 14:08:17 <sipa> tumak: but all curve25519 is constant-time, afaik, which is much harder to achieve with other algorithms than a precomputed ladder
828 2013-06-08 14:08:20 <CodeShark> inverse via exponentiation is constant time
829 2013-06-08 14:08:30 <CodeShark> that's the main benefit
830 2013-06-08 14:08:46 <CodeShark> it's simple and constant time
831 2013-06-08 14:08:56 <CodeShark> simple to implement, simple to verify
832 2013-06-08 14:09:07 <sipa> no edge cases
833 2013-06-08 14:09:17 <sipa> if it works once. it likely works for all input :)
834 2013-06-08 14:09:35 <CodeShark> right - no branching at all :)
835 2013-06-08 14:10:00 <sipa> tumak: and even if the parallellized carry-less muls are super efficient, they are super efficient for other algorithms than a fixed ladder too
836 2013-06-08 14:10:14 <sipa> (they like are)
837 2013-06-08 14:10:18 <sipa> (likely)
838 2013-06-08 14:10:28 <tumak> sipa: i tried porting your code carryless
839 2013-06-08 14:10:31 <tumak> ended up with radix 24
840 2013-06-08 14:10:32 <tumak> :(
841 2013-06-08 14:10:45 agnostic98 has joined
842 2013-06-08 14:10:47 <sipa> haha
843 2013-06-08 14:11:02 <tumak> (also tried with floats)
844 2013-06-08 14:11:12 <tumak> btw, your radix 26 seems silly, you can do radix 30 for int64
845 2013-06-08 14:11:52 hneio is now known as nimdAHK
846 2013-06-08 14:11:53 <sipa> hmm?
847 2013-06-08 14:12:34 <CodeShark> ya, wat?!
848 2013-06-08 14:12:52 <tumak> sipa: 9 words instead of 10
849 2013-06-08 14:13:00 <sipa> tumak: pull requests welcome
850 2013-06-08 14:13:35 <tumak> sipa: well, i'm asking if theres reason behind that, or its just residue from original implementation which used doubles
851 2013-06-08 14:13:51 <sipa> afaik i looked into using 9 words
852 2013-06-08 14:13:59 <sipa> and for some reason decided it wasn't possible
853 2013-06-08 14:14:09 <sipa> but i certainly spent much less time on the 32-bit version than on the 64-bit one
854 2013-06-08 14:14:32 <tumak> well, if you carry every mul, you can easily use just 63 bits, ie 5 words
855 2013-06-08 14:14:54 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
856 2013-06-08 14:14:59 <CodeShark> not having to carry every mul is one of the main benefits of using this format
857 2013-06-08 14:15:00 <tumak> 30 bits make sense only if you do carry-less schoolbook multiplication (and handle carrys in following normalize)
858 2013-06-08 14:15:29 <sipa> you mean normalize before and after every multiplication?
859 2013-06-08 14:15:42 <sipa> so you are guaranteed to have no more than 30 bits in every limb
860 2013-06-08 14:15:52 <tumak> no, just carry is enough
861 2013-06-08 14:16:19 <sipa> right, i don't mean detect the >0xffffffff... case
862 2013-06-08 14:16:22 <tumak> sipa: i'll put up some prototypes later, i never got past the point of efficient reduction
863 2013-06-08 14:16:31 <tumak> as the magic must be rewritten from scratch for every different radix :/
864 2013-06-08 14:17:26 <sipa> tumak: i was still pondering another field implementation
865 2013-06-08 14:17:39 <tumak> incidentally, isnt there some sort of generator to quickly cough up formula for efficient reduction modulo generalized marsenne primes?
866 2013-06-08 14:17:59 <sipa> using 4x64 limbs (or 8x32), but with an overflow limb that is not used during multiplication
867 2013-06-08 14:18:17 <sipa> so you don't need a carry after every addition or multiplication with a constant
868 2013-06-08 14:18:21 <sipa> but do need one before multiplying
869 2013-06-08 14:19:14 <tumak> problem with overflows and carrys is that they suck horribly in sse code
870 2013-06-08 14:19:37 <tumak> ie there is no carry, and you cant parallelize it ... inevitably we'll have to use sse if we ever plan to beat gmp :)
871 2013-06-08 14:19:37 franl has joined
872 2013-06-08 14:20:08 <sipa> and i suppose what you're suggesting is exactly that, but with 9x30 instead of 10x32
873 2013-06-08 14:20:12 <sipa> eh, 8x32
874 2013-06-08 14:20:56 <tumak> well, 9 words instead of 4-5 implies 75% more or so multiplications
875 2013-06-08 14:21:41 <tumak> (assuming karatsuba is not worth the trouble for 256 bits)
876 2013-06-08 14:21:50 <sipa> yeah
877 2013-06-08 14:22:12 <sipa> but if you have no native 64x64->128 multiplication, 4-5 limbs is just not an option
878 2013-06-08 14:24:58 <tumak> definitely need to write that modulo marsenne normalization generator
879 2013-06-08 14:25:07 <tumak> to try out different word sizes :)
880 2013-06-08 14:25:16 * nsh orders the cliffnotes of this conversation
881 2013-06-08 14:25:22 <sipa> ?
882 2013-06-08 14:25:34 <sipa> anyway, i'm more interesting in 64-bit performance than 32-bit one
883 2013-06-08 14:25:37 yubrew has joined
884 2013-06-08 14:25:51 <tumak> s/normalization/reduce/
885 2013-06-08 14:25:57 <nsh> (meaning i need to read more before half of it makes sense)
886 2013-06-08 14:26:30 <tumak> https://github.com/sipa/secp256k1/blob/master/src/impl/field_10x26.h#L47
887 2013-06-08 14:26:46 <tumak> sipa: this part, is written by hand for each different word size :/
888 2013-06-08 14:27:57 <sipa> well, originally just for 10x52 :)
889 2013-06-08 14:27:59 patcon has joined
890 2013-06-08 14:28:05 <sipa> grr, 5x52
891 2013-06-08 14:28:06 jouke has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
892 2013-06-08 14:28:22 Namworld has quit ()
893 2013-06-08 14:29:22 jouke has joined
894 2013-06-08 14:29:22 <tumak> sipa: btw, my ex-professor wrote nice paper about neat modinv http://users.fit.cvut.cz/~lorencz/clanky/1_New_Alg_Class_Inv.pdf
895 2013-06-08 14:29:43 <tumak> claims 30-50% faster than bgcdext, patented though :/
896 2013-06-08 14:29:50 <sipa> :(
897 2013-06-08 14:31:32 twobitcoins has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
898 2013-06-08 14:31:56 twobitcoins has joined
899 2013-06-08 14:33:25 * nsh tries to imagine being a mathematics professors and seriously entertaining the idea of patenting an arithmetic algorithm
900 2013-06-08 14:33:33 <CodeShark> 30-50% faster for what sized inputs?
901 2013-06-08 14:33:35 <nsh> *professor
902 2013-06-08 14:34:12 <nsh> maybe the hardware implementation is conscionably patentable
903 2013-06-08 14:34:54 dave4925 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
904 2013-06-08 14:35:27 <CodeShark> if it's 50% faster for inputs with millions of bits but slower for 256 bit inputs, it's useless for us
905 2013-06-08 14:35:38 <nsh> with the provision that royalties are automatically waved in developing countries and the authors are kicked once in the gonads for every half hour of lawyer-time
906 2013-06-08 14:36:22 <CodeShark> gmp uses this: http://gmplib.org/manual/Lehmer_0027s-Algorithm.html#Lehmer_0027s-Algorithm
907 2013-06-08 14:36:42 <CodeShark> which seems to work pretty nicely for the size of inputs we're using
908 2013-06-08 14:36:46 <tumak> CodeShark: the speed claims are for hardware implementation indeed
909 2013-06-08 14:36:59 <tumak> apparently lorencz is more pipeline friendly than lehmer
910 2013-06-08 14:38:20 patcon has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
911 2013-06-08 14:40:19 * nsh wonders why Lehmer's algorithm is described (on Wikipedia) in terms of high bases (β = 1000 or β = 232)
912 2013-06-08 14:41:09 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
913 2013-06-08 14:41:09 valparaiso has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
914 2013-06-08 14:41:45 agnostic98 has joined
915 2013-06-08 14:42:00 <CodeShark> nsh: 2^32 is a 32-bit workd
916 2013-06-08 14:42:06 <CodeShark> *word
917 2013-06-08 14:42:22 <CodeShark> i.e. the base of a 32-bit architecture
918 2013-06-08 14:42:28 <nsh> sure
919 2013-06-08 14:42:43 <nsh> oh, ok
920 2013-06-08 14:43:46 <nsh> CPU operations are dealing with operands of this size (or 64 bit)
921 2013-06-08 14:43:54 valparaiso has joined
922 2013-06-08 14:44:30 Julius129 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
923 2013-06-08 14:45:19 * nsh looks to see if he still has copies of Knuth lying about
924 2013-06-08 14:45:38 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
925 2013-06-08 14:45:54 <tumak> wrt base 30, btw http://pastebin.com/Xjftcwep
926 2013-06-08 14:47:02 Julius129 has joined
927 2013-06-08 14:47:31 <tumak> ( and ugly python code to try out different bases - https://gist.github.com/katuma/5735323 )
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936 2013-06-08 14:58:49 * nsh reads: http://www.imsc.res.in/~kapil/crypto/notes/node1.html
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945 2013-06-08 15:12:46 <Tykling> given "walletnotify=/path/to/script.py %s" in .bitcoin/bitcoin.conf, what could cause bitcoind to not call the script when receiving a transaction ?
946 2013-06-08 15:12:49 agnostic98 has joined
947 2013-06-08 15:14:47 <nsh> Tykling, the transaction does not affect the wallet?
948 2013-06-08 15:15:09 <Tykling> no, it does
949 2013-06-08 15:15:40 <Tykling> it just doesn't call the script, can't figure out why
950 2013-06-08 15:15:51 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
951 2013-06-08 15:16:52 <Tykling> if I send a small btc amount to the wallet and do "bitcoind listtransactions" and get the txid from there, and call the script manually as the user running bitcoind, with the txid as parameter, it works as expected
952 2013-06-08 15:16:54 <sipa> Tykling: is it executable
953 2013-06-08 15:17:08 Julius129 has joined
954 2013-06-08 15:17:10 <sipa> ?
955 2013-06-08 15:17:11 rdponticelli has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
956 2013-06-08 15:17:18 <Tykling> yes it is
957 2013-06-08 15:17:27 <sipa> running as the same user?
958 2013-06-08 15:17:40 <Tykling> otherwise I wouldn't be able to run it manually, and yes, same user that runs bitcoind
959 2013-06-08 15:18:27 <Tykling> does bitcoind log anything to debug.log when trying to call the script ?
960 2013-06-08 15:18:35 <sipa> wi don't think so
961 2013-06-08 15:18:42 <sipa> may be a good idea to add that
962 2013-06-08 15:18:46 <Tykling> I am not sure if it is even trying to call it
963 2013-06-08 15:18:47 <nsh> +1
964 2013-06-08 15:18:51 <sipa> how do you obaerve the script doesn't run
965 2013-06-08 15:18:56 <sipa> *observe
966 2013-06-08 15:19:06 <Tykling> if I send a small btc amount to the wallet and do "bitcoind listtransactions" and get the txid from there, and call the script manually as the user running bitcoind, with the txid as parameter, it works as expected
967 2013-06-08 15:19:25 <Tykling> ..but not until I do it manually
968 2013-06-08 15:20:08 <nsh> Tykling, check if this happens: printf("AddToWallet %s %s%s\n", wtxIn.GetHash().ToString().c_str(), (fInsertedNew ? "new" : ""), (fUpdated ? "update" : ""));
969 2013-06-08 15:20:37 <sipa> which bitcoind versiin?
970 2013-06-08 15:20:39 <nsh> if that happens, and the walletnotify argument is not empty, then the script should be called
971 2013-06-08 15:21:38 [\\\] has joined
972 2013-06-08 15:21:46 <Tykling> sipa: 0.8.1
973 2013-06-08 15:21:47 CodeShark has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
974 2013-06-08 15:21:53 <Tykling> was it just added in 0.8.2 ?
975 2013-06-08 15:22:02 Subo1978 has joined
976 2013-06-08 15:22:26 <Tykling> that would explain a lot
977 2013-06-08 15:22:46 <sipa> yes
978 2013-06-08 15:22:57 <sipa> 0.8.1 doea not have it yet afaik
979 2013-06-08 15:22:58 <nsh> heh :)
980 2013-06-08 15:23:14 <Tykling> hahah ok facepalm, thanks guys :)
981 2013-06-08 15:23:34 <Tykling> you dont want to know how long I have been troubleshooting this
982 2013-06-08 15:23:36 <Tykling> :)
983 2013-06-08 15:24:11 <nsh> just bill yourself for the time and use it as a tax writeoff
984 2013-06-08 15:24:19 Subo1978_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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987 2013-06-08 15:24:29 chorao has quit ()
988 2013-06-08 15:24:29 <nsh> (disclaimer: i am not an accountant)
989 2013-06-08 15:24:33 <Tykling> haha :)
990 2013-06-08 15:25:35 rdponticelli has joined
991 2013-06-08 15:25:38 <Tykling> if bitcoind warned about unrecognized config options I'd probably have noticed earlier
992 2013-06-08 15:27:09 patcon has joined
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994 2013-06-08 15:28:38 richcollins has quit (Quit: richcollins)
995 2013-06-08 15:29:12 <sipa> Tykling: yeah, we really need something like that
996 2013-06-08 15:29:30 franl has quit (Quit: O Elbereth! Gilthoniel! We still remember ...)
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1028 2013-06-08 16:23:20 <petertodd> Interesting: 8ff89472c457f97c30d5013382377107dd204bc734c1c6003cda9fceecd09842 and 510a0dc01a01ed7a8a9cfaca309669feea742fd419338ca1157454bd50340d69 Seems someone is using non-std tx's to commit to a set of parameters for a blub blub sum PRNG
1029 2013-06-08 16:23:31 Blitzboom has joined
1030 2013-06-08 16:24:13 <petertodd> Has the text "tetazoo puntlist (sha3-512 of newline-separated hex hashes of seeds)" and "tetazoo puntlist (blum blum shub modulus, big endian)"
1031 2013-06-08 16:24:29 beethoven2 has joined
1032 2013-06-08 16:24:49 <petertodd> Maybe an MIT thing? http://tetazoo.scripts.mit.edu/
1033 2013-06-08 16:25:05 <nsh> what would you gain by memorializing a PRNG seed?
1034 2013-06-08 16:25:45 <petertodd> Well, commiting to a PRNG seed in advance in a useful thing to do, actually putting the whole seed in though isn't.
1035 2013-06-08 16:26:27 rdymac has joined
1036 2013-06-08 16:27:10 <petertodd> oh, this page on the site says something about a "puntlist": http://tetazoo.scripts.mit.edu/whoweare.php
1037 2013-06-08 16:28:32 * nsh wonders what a puntlist is and how it pertains to a floorplan
1038 2013-06-08 16:29:37 <nsh> punt: skip class, avoid work, navigate waterways using long stick, impart momentum to an object using a limb, lay a wager, discard
1039 2013-06-08 16:29:53 <petertodd> It's probably for some kind of random selection process; "punt: To lay a bet against the bank, as in roulette."
1040 2013-06-08 16:30:13 <nsh> http://web.mit.edu/cmerrill/Public/tetazoo/punt/2010/puntListCode.py
1041 2013-06-08 16:30:31 qeb has quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"])
1042 2013-06-08 16:30:32 <nsh> yes, seems to be a selection process, i guess for tetazoo selecting people/rooms
1043 2013-06-08 16:30:50 <nsh> to whatever nefarious nerddom activities are to be engaged
1044 2013-06-08 16:30:57 <nsh> *for
1045 2013-06-08 16:31:01 qeb has joined
1046 2013-06-08 16:32:25 <petertodd> Interesting. They obviously understand just enough of the Bitcoin scripting system to be dangerous.
1047 2013-06-08 16:32:45 <petertodd> Note the unneeded OP_DROP OP_TRUE at the end
1048 2013-06-08 16:33:34 <nsh> maybe they're just future-proofing ;)
1049 2013-06-08 16:33:57 ptote has joined
1050 2013-06-08 16:34:37 <petertodd> Heh, we talk all the time about how we'd never make changes that turn spendable coins into unspendable ones, but actually the reverse is something we can't do either.
1051 2013-06-08 16:35:00 <nsh> mmmm
1052 2013-06-08 16:35:02 <petertodd> IE, even as a hard-fork, it would change the economic basis of the system.
1053 2013-06-08 16:35:39 dan_ has joined
1054 2013-06-08 16:35:53 qeb has quit (Client Quit)
1055 2013-06-08 16:37:03 * nsh nods
1056 2013-06-08 16:38:41 <petertodd> Also, that's true even if the total quantity of coins remains the same if we're making what once was a genuine sacrifice of Bitcoins available again.
1057 2013-06-08 16:39:38 BDCrate has joined
1058 2013-06-08 16:39:52 <nsh> right, there are quite a few proposals predicated on unspentability
1059 2013-06-08 16:40:28 bitit has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1060 2013-06-08 16:40:44 Maxvalor has joined
1061 2013-06-08 16:40:56 <petertodd> Yup. I am after all apparently the worlds leading expert on sacrificing Bitcoins - a dubious honor. :P
1062 2013-06-08 16:41:07 <nsh> hah :)
1063 2013-06-08 16:41:39 <nsh> i don't recall the event (i wanted to say anecdote, but i suppose that might be belittling a not inconsiderate loss)
1064 2013-06-08 16:41:48 <nsh> *inconsiderable
1065 2013-06-08 16:42:17 <petertodd> Lol, nah, I'm referring to how I've come up with basically every good method for proof-of-sacrifice, although that's only because I'm the only person trying.
1066 2013-06-08 16:42:29 rdponticelli has joined
1067 2013-06-08 16:42:38 <nsh> ah, right
1068 2013-06-08 16:43:15 <nsh> i like the idea of sacrifices distributed to future mining, but i haven't grokked how that might work yet
1069 2013-06-08 16:43:54 <petertodd> Making coins spendable by anyone after n blocks works fine.
1070 2013-06-08 16:43:59 <nsh> (theoretically outright loss is partially distributed to future mining through deflation)
1071 2013-06-08 16:45:25 BGL has joined
1072 2013-06-08 16:45:46 <petertodd> What's interesting, is how big should n be? The smallest practical n should be say 100, to avoid problems in a re-organization, however, what about the other direction? Arguably a really large n, say 1 year in the future, is a better choice because it helps avoid the problem where a large pool can offer to do sacrifices at a discount.
1073 2013-06-08 16:46:01 agnostic98 has joined
1074 2013-06-08 16:47:26 <ptote> What is a good way to programmatically generate qr codes of bitcoin addresses?
1075 2013-06-08 16:47:35 Maxvalor has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1076 2013-06-08 16:47:43 <petertodd> You can do that with the scripting language by extending it with the ability to find the height of transaction, but what if there existed a way to create a delibrately weak pubkey, whose private key was provably unknown to you?
1077 2013-06-08 16:48:27 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1078 2013-06-08 16:49:01 <petertodd> If you then also lock the txout to some minimum depth, you've created a system for timelock encryption, basically because there's no economic reason to find the key to spend it much faster than the depth!
1079 2013-06-08 16:49:08 <petertodd> A shitty system sure, but...
1080 2013-06-08 16:49:09 <nsh> petertodd, the idea of being able to lock a paper wallet in a safe and still be able to spent 5 years later is pretty appealing
1081 2013-06-08 16:49:15 <nsh> *spend it
1082 2013-06-08 16:49:38 Maxvalor has joined
1083 2013-06-08 16:49:55 <petertodd> For sure. I've done it by spending to a key, then creating a nLockTime'd transaction spending that and deleting the intermediary key, but you can't do that in a way you can prove to someone else.
1084 2013-06-08 16:50:44 <nsh> perhaps lodging post-dated transactions that move the coins periodically to new addresses based on a determinate scheme
1085 2013-06-08 16:50:52 <nsh> and writing the seed on the paper you put in the safe
1086 2013-06-08 16:51:20 <petertodd> That's not a math-based proof.
1087 2013-06-08 16:51:37 <nsh> hmm, i'm missing something
1088 2013-06-08 16:52:00 <nsh> what's the purpose of the proof?
1089 2013-06-08 16:52:36 * nsh rereads
1090 2013-06-08 16:52:45 <petertodd> Maybe your a lawyer and want to prove you've honestly setup a trust for some kid, accessibly only on their 18th birthday?
1091 2013-06-08 16:53:03 <nsh> oh, okay
1092 2013-06-08 16:53:31 <petertodd> It's really no different from creating a sacrifice, except that here we only want one person to be able to spend the coins.
1093 2013-06-08 16:55:13 <nsh> i think you should be able to lock coins in a chain of multisig transactions with one key that will only be generated at some point X in the future
1094 2013-06-08 16:55:43 <petertodd> The problem of generating that key is the same problem of timelock encryption.
1095 2013-06-08 16:55:57 dan_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1096 2013-06-08 16:56:21 <nsh> can you not prove time via the length of the blockchain? right, this then becomes scripting for transaction depth
1097 2013-06-08 16:57:12 <petertodd> That's irrelevant. You posessed the secret keys required to spend the coins at every step of the way.
1098 2013-06-08 16:58:00 jaequery has joined
1099 2013-06-08 16:58:06 * nsh muses
1100 2013-06-08 17:00:39 <nsh> gmaxwell's idea is typically incomprehensible to me: "An infinite sequence of nothing-up-my-sleeve numbers are taken as an infinte sequence of ECC public keys. Searching the pow involves finding distinguished points along a Pollard's rho DLP solution trying to crack the key. When the key is cracked the problem is advanced to the next key."
1101 2013-06-08 17:00:43 <nsh> ( https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/alt_ideas )
1102 2013-06-08 17:01:28 <petertodd> At what point does it become incomprehensible?
1103 2013-06-08 17:01:43 <nsh> pollard's rho, but that's just an algorithm for discrete logarithm
1104 2013-06-08 17:01:46 <nsh> so i guess i can parse it
1105 2013-06-08 17:02:28 <petertodd> Pollards rho is basically a way to crack a key incrementally, so the proof-of-work becomes proving that you've done work trying to crack the key.
1106 2013-06-08 17:02:51 <petertodd> These keys are made delibrately weak so cracking them is feasible.
1107 2013-06-08 17:03:01 <nsh> ah, hmm
1108 2013-06-08 17:03:36 ThomasV has joined
1109 2013-06-08 17:03:38 <nsh> so you can demonstrate that your are incrementally closed to the solution of the DLP at each stage?
1110 2013-06-08 17:03:41 <nsh> *closer
1111 2013-06-08 17:03:56 <nsh> which corresponds to finding the privkey
1112 2013-06-08 17:04:05 <petertodd> The reason why there is more than one key is both to allow the timelock to be used multiple times, but also so that we can adjust the rate at which they are being cracked by making work only valid if you do it on keys in a way that will lead them to being cracked at the right time.
1113 2013-06-08 17:04:21 <petertodd> Incrementally closer is one way, but if it were a purely random thing that would be ok too.
1114 2013-06-08 17:04:29 <nsh> ok
1115 2013-06-08 17:04:48 <nsh> fascinating
1116 2013-06-08 17:05:07 * nsh will have to think about this while walking to the pub
1117 2013-06-08 17:05:10 <nsh> thanks for the discussion
1118 2013-06-08 17:05:14 <petertodd> np
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1122 2013-06-08 17:15:28 <tumak> sipa: you were right, with 128bits mul & adds and 64bit words it could be made *really* efficient, https://gist.github.com/katuma/5735635
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1127 2013-06-08 17:18:49 <sipa> tumak: i'm implementing it right now
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1132 2013-06-08 17:26:52 <shesek> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0011
1133 2013-06-08 17:26:58 <shesek> "The current Satoshi bitcoin client does not relay or mine transactions with scriptSigs larger than 200 bytes; to accomodate 3-signature transactions, this will be increased to 500 bytes."
1134 2013-06-08 17:27:02 <shesek> was that done?
1135 2013-06-08 17:27:23 <petertodd> yes
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1144 2013-06-08 17:41:44 <TheUni> sipa: ping
1145 2013-06-08 17:42:44 <sipa> yes?
1146 2013-06-08 17:43:59 porquilho has joined
1147 2013-06-08 17:45:57 <TheUni> sipa: how do you think i can help to push the autotools PR along? I realize it hasn't been long at all, but i'm concerned that it will stall since there really aren't (m)any build-system devs around here. just want to be proactive
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1153 2013-06-08 17:50:48 <maaku> Good suggestion from the forum to put a warning on the output of dumpprivkey, since people are getting others to give their private keys away as part of a scam : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228866.0
1154 2013-06-08 17:51:27 cypher has joined
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1158 2013-06-08 17:56:23 <SomeoneWeird> https://github.com/goshakkk/nsa_panel
1159 2013-06-08 17:56:25 <SomeoneWeird> this is win
1160 2013-06-08 17:56:28 <SomeoneWeird> haha
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1162 2013-06-08 18:00:21 <sipa> TheUni: i'd say: follow up on the comments given, and make it ready for merging (i.e., include gitian changes, and remove the other makefiles)
1163 2013-06-08 18:01:24 <TheUni> sipa: good idea, i'll pull gitian and get it working there
1164 2013-06-08 18:02:28 <TheUni> sipa: if i change the gitian descriptors, the pull-request builder bot won't actually use them, will it?
1165 2013-06-08 18:02:29 ralphtheninja has joined
1166 2013-06-08 18:02:54 <TheUni> afaik it uses cached gitian descriptors rather than what's in git
1167 2013-06-08 18:03:46 <sipa> TheUni: i don't expect the bot to keep working, but that's no problem
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1169 2013-06-08 18:04:08 <sipa> if the gitian builds work, and people can do local builds from the source files, it can be merged imho
1170 2013-06-08 18:04:33 <sipa> we'll need to get the build bot updated too then, but that can happen later
1171 2013-06-08 18:05:25 <TheUni> sipa: out of curiosity, why doesn't it just use the descriptors in git?
1172 2013-06-08 18:05:33 Odyessus has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
1173 2013-06-08 18:07:06 <sipa> TheUni: no clue, ask BlueMatt
1174 2013-06-08 18:07:14 <TheUni> ok
1175 2013-06-08 18:07:20 <TheUni> grabbing virtualbox now. thanks for the suggestion
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1187 2013-06-08 18:28:02 <shesek> petertodd, thanks
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1197 2013-06-08 19:03:00 <bitnumus> hi all, how can i make -qt use as much CPU as possible when syncing ?
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1201 2013-06-08 19:03:43 <bitnumus> my total CPU usage is only about 10%
1202 2013-06-08 19:03:53 <bitnumus> when i've synced before its been 300%
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1204 2013-06-08 19:05:45 <sipa> it always uses as muvh cpu as it can
1205 2013-06-08 19:06:06 <sipa> if it's not using all, it's likely limited by disk or (more likely) network
1206 2013-06-08 19:06:11 <sipa> *much
1207 2013-06-08 19:06:42 <sipa> given the stupid sync algorithm, most likely you're just fetching from a slow peer
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1209 2013-06-08 19:07:05 <bitnumus> this is rubbish, there is nothing i can do to improve?
1210 2013-06-08 19:07:18 <bitnumus> maybe it uses more CPU with the later blocks
1211 2013-06-08 19:07:35 Toresh has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1212 2013-06-08 19:07:52 <bitnumus> and what do you mean network? i thought verifying transactions used alot of CPU and that was what the bottleneck was
1213 2013-06-08 19:08:02 <bitnumus> i have a decent SSD
1214 2013-06-08 19:08:33 <bitnumus> im sure previously all 8 cores were like 60%
1215 2013-06-08 19:09:12 mE\Ta has joined
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1217 2013-06-08 19:11:09 <sipa> use -connect=ip to directly connect to a fast peer if you know one
1218 2013-06-08 19:11:39 <sipa> and before the last checkpoint, signature verification is disabled
1219 2013-06-08 19:11:57 <sipa> cpu usage is typically quite low before that point
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1222 2013-06-08 19:13:36 <bitnumus> 163.680
1223 2013-06-08 19:13:42 <bitnumus> blocks
1224 2013-06-08 19:14:05 <bitnumus> when was last checkpoint ?
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1231 2013-06-08 19:17:33 <sipa> 235000 or so
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1233 2013-06-08 19:18:11 <bitnumus> its never been this slow
1234 2013-06-08 19:18:16 <bitnumus> prior to this 0.8.2
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1236 2013-06-08 19:18:25 <sipa> sorry 225000
1237 2013-06-08 19:18:32 <sipa> well then you just hit a slow peer
1238 2013-06-08 19:18:38 <bitnumus> restart client ?
1239 2013-06-08 19:18:53 <sipa> that may help yes
1240 2013-06-08 19:19:06 <sipa> -connect= directly to a fast node helps more
1241 2013-06-08 19:19:19 <bitnumus> i have no idea of a fast node, unless you want to point me to one :)
1242 2013-06-08 19:19:21 Toresh has joined
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1244 2013-06-08 19:19:33 <sipa> ok
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1246 2013-06-08 19:30:57 <bitnumus> look this isn't right
1247 2013-06-08 19:30:58 <bitnumus> lol
1248 2013-06-08 19:31:14 <bitnumus> i've downloaded the blockchain start to finish probably 30 times
1249 2013-06-08 19:31:22 <bitnumus> and this is one of the worse going back years
1250 2013-06-08 19:31:51 <bitnumus> 87 weeks behind, moving at a painfully slow rate
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1254 2013-06-08 19:40:49 <shesek> BIP 16 says that the spending transaction of a p2sh address is "...signatures... {serialized script}"
1255 2013-06-08 19:41:26 <shesek> shouldn't it include the number of signatures somewhere?
1256 2013-06-08 19:42:03 <shesek> I'm trying to spend money from an p2sh multisig address
1257 2013-06-08 19:42:19 balrog has joined
1258 2013-06-08 19:43:16 <shesek> what I have so far is OP_0 [signature] SIGHASH_ALL [multisig_script], but it doesn't work
1259 2013-06-08 19:43:39 <shesek> any idea what I am doing wrong?
1260 2013-06-08 19:46:30 <sipa> SIGHASH_ALL isn't an opcode
1261 2013-06-08 19:47:36 <shesek> shouldn't it be added after the signature?
1262 2013-06-08 19:47:52 <sipa> it's part of the signature, not a separate script element
1263 2013-06-08 19:48:36 <sipa> and OP_CHECKMULTISIG has a bug, that it fetches one element too many from the stack
1264 2013-06-08 19:49:02 <shesek> yeah, that's what the OP_0 is for, no?
1265 2013-06-08 19:49:13 <sipa> ah, yes indeed
1266 2013-06-08 19:49:23 <shesek> and yes, I did use it as part of the signature
1267 2013-06-08 19:49:24 <shesek> http://pastie.org/8024064
1268 2013-06-08 19:49:32 <shesek> (CoffeeScript, BitcoinJS)
1269 2013-06-08 19:50:01 <shesek> anything else looks wrong?
1270 2013-06-08 19:51:10 <shesek> bitcoind's decoderawtransaction is giving me "TX decode failed" for those transactions
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1440 2013-06-08 21:12:56 <sipa> damn, debugging a new field implementation for libsecp256k1 for over an hour
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1442 2013-06-08 21:13:18 <sipa> ... turns out the bug was in the "convert binary to internal representation" function
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1445 2013-06-08 21:18:03 <nsh> sipa, bleh
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1449 2013-06-08 21:21:16 <thisisengland86> anyone buying/selling
1450 2013-06-08 21:21:43 <sipa> thisisengland86: #bitcoin-otc
1451 2013-06-08 21:21:56 <sipa> tumak: slower :(
1452 2013-06-08 21:22:12 <sipa> tumak: at least in pure C; i don't have an assembly-optimized version
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1454 2013-06-08 21:25:22 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
1455 2013-06-08 21:26:14 <nsh> sipa, may i stare incomprehensibly at the source, power-blinking like adrian lamo?
1456 2013-06-08 21:26:20 debiantoruser has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1457 2013-06-08 21:26:36 <nsh> *uncomprehendingly
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1479 2013-06-08 21:44:07 SteveDekorte has joined
1480 2013-06-08 21:44:35 <tumak> sipa: are you sure the div/adds are interleaved (with no data dependency stalls?)
1481 2013-06-08 21:45:58 <sipa> tumak: no
1482 2013-06-08 21:46:16 <tumak> then its going to suck :(
1483 2013-06-08 21:46:28 <sipa> sucking is relative
1484 2013-06-08 21:46:38 <SteveDekorte> Is SSL not used between normal (non RPC) peers? If so, does this make it easy for ISP/governments to do packet filtering on bitcoin connections?
1485 2013-06-08 21:46:54 <tumak> sipa: https://gist.github.com/katuma/5736642 here is shim for 32bit-inside-64bit
1486 2013-06-08 21:47:13 <sipa> tumak: i'm just comparing a native-C implementation of 5x64 with a native-C implementation of 5x52
1487 2013-06-08 21:47:16 <tumak> if i do the divs first, and then adds later, not even clang can properly interleave it
1488 2013-06-08 21:47:27 <sipa> if the compiler is stupid, it is stupid in both cases
1489 2013-06-08 21:47:30 <sipa> and it likely is
1490 2013-06-08 21:47:52 <tumak> sipa: well, i think most likely cpu has 1 or 2 int mul units or so
1491 2013-06-08 21:48:02 <tumak> so doing *only* muls in succesion is silly, it must interleave everything
1492 2013-06-08 21:48:05 <tumak> with no data dependency
1493 2013-06-08 21:48:36 <sipa> i'll show you my code soon
1494 2013-06-08 21:48:56 <sipa> somehow it fails the unit tests suddently, and i have no idea what changes since they worked
1495 2013-06-08 21:49:01 <tumak> sipa: https://gist.github.com/katuma/5736661
1496 2013-06-08 21:49:08 <tumak> paste me just -S output :)
1497 2013-06-08 21:49:26 <Luke-Jr> SteveDekorte: if a government wants to block Bitcoin, they could do so VERY trivially, in many ways
1498 2013-06-08 21:49:42 <tumak> sipa: if the pattern is not mul / add / maybeshr now and then, then compiler is stupid
1499 2013-06-08 21:49:47 <tumak> and you have to reorder the code manually :(
1500 2013-06-08 21:50:06 <Luke-Jr> SteveDekorte: and no, there's no reasonable way to get around that
1501 2013-06-08 21:50:21 <sipa> tumak: i know very little about assembly
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1503 2013-06-08 21:50:32 <nsh> SteveDekorte, even with SSL bitcoin traffic would be relatively trivial to fingerprint
1504 2013-06-08 21:50:39 <nsh> or classify, even
1505 2013-06-08 21:50:49 <sipa> tumak: what you say makes sense, but isn't relevant now
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1507 2013-06-08 21:50:59 <nsh> the current best solution would be to run bitcoin over tor or i2p, etc.
1508 2013-06-08 21:51:15 <nsh> i've yet to hear of any reports of bitcoin traffic being filtered or shaped though, personally
1509 2013-06-08 21:51:16 <SteveDekorte> If that's true, would the same apply to torrents?
1510 2013-06-08 21:51:43 <nsh> torrents are routinely choked by ISPs in many countries
1511 2013-06-08 21:51:43 <sipa> SteveDekorte: yes
1512 2013-06-08 21:51:56 stretchwarren has joined
1513 2013-06-08 21:51:56 <nsh> also probably your IP address is put on some lists or something
1514 2013-06-08 21:52:28 <nsh> using tor for torrenting is considered "a bit mean" unless you're also running nodes/relays
1515 2013-06-08 21:52:47 <tumak> sipa: yeah, maybe 128bit muls are simply not that pretty for modern cpus actually :(
1516 2013-06-08 21:53:01 <SteveDekorte> would tor also be easy to fingerprint?
1517 2013-06-08 21:53:11 <sipa> tumak: 128 int mults aren't the problem
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1519 2013-06-08 21:53:36 <sipa> tumak: as a 5x64 has far fewer mults than a 5x52 implementation (16 vs 25)
1520 2013-06-08 21:53:43 <sipa> it's the addition-with-carry that hurts
1521 2013-06-08 21:53:48 <tumak> ah
1522 2013-06-08 21:53:53 <nsh> SteveDekorte, the tor developers have put a lot of effort into making tor traffic hard to differentiate from regular SSL
1523 2013-06-08 21:53:56 <tumak> you mean the generated add, adc, adc, adc
1524 2013-06-08 21:54:00 <nsh> but it's an ongoing arms race
1525 2013-06-08 21:54:02 <sipa> tumak: yes
1526 2013-06-08 21:54:08 <tumak> yeah, cpu has most likely only one unit for that
1527 2013-06-08 21:54:42 <sipa> add is (perfectly pipelined) up to 6x faster than adc on some systems, afaik
1528 2013-06-08 21:54:58 <tumak> indeed
1529 2013-06-08 21:55:02 <tumak> well then, you can use my 32 bit code
1530 2013-06-08 21:55:07 <tumak> its 64 muls :)
1531 2013-06-08 21:55:13 <tumak> but no adc
1532 2013-06-08 21:55:20 <tumak> just word shuffling
1533 2013-06-08 21:55:26 <sipa> haha
1534 2013-06-08 21:55:50 <SteveDekorte> would steganographing any relatively low bandwidth data stream onto a video stream sufficiently hide it?
1535 2013-06-08 21:55:55 <tumak> maybe the 32bit normalized in 64bit words will work out nice
1536 2013-06-08 21:56:06 <SteveDekorte> (or audio stream)
1537 2013-06-08 21:56:08 <tumak> since practically no need to normalize after unlimited amount of adds/subs
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1539 2013-06-08 21:57:13 <SteveDekorte> I guess they could just try connecting to anything they suspect is a node to expose it unless it has white lists
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1543 2013-06-08 22:08:09 <nsh> SteveDekorte, there's a talk from the last CCC by ioerror (i think) about the evolution of tor blocking
1544 2013-06-08 22:08:11 <nsh> it's quite informative
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1546 2013-06-08 22:09:14 <SteveDekorte> nsh: thanks, will check it out
1547 2013-06-08 22:10:16 <nsh> SteveDekorte, embedded here: http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=18110
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1554 2013-06-08 22:18:51 <Luke-Jr> SteveDekorte: they could go after minres
1555 2013-06-08 22:18:53 <Luke-Jr> miners*
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1557 2013-06-08 22:20:12 <SteveDekorte> this came up because bit-angels is discussing btc startups in countries with high inflation, like Iran, Syra, Argentina, Venezuela, etc and there were questions about how easy it would be for governments to shut them down
1558 2013-06-08 22:20:51 <Luke-Jr> SteveDekorte: something like Bitcoin just doesn't work underground
1559 2013-06-08 22:21:00 Detritus has joined
1560 2013-06-08 22:21:27 <sipa> i think it could work if it was underground in just a limited set of places
1561 2013-06-08 22:21:57 <Luke-Jr> sipa: how are merchants going to accept bitcoin, if it's banned?
1562 2013-06-08 22:22:06 <Luke-Jr> I don't mean technically, I mean practically
1563 2013-06-08 22:22:14 <OneFixt> (scammer https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=162696.msg1714856#msg1714856)
1564 2013-06-08 22:23:12 <sipa> Luke-Jr: not sure what you mean; in a place where it's banned, it would only be used illegally
1565 2013-06-08 22:23:34 <sipa> i mean that if that's just in a limited set of places, that doesn't harm the system globally
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1567 2013-06-08 22:24:17 <Luke-Jr> I suppose, but that provides zero benefits to Bitcoin IMO
1568 2013-06-08 22:24:27 <Luke-Jr> it's not like it can achieve any real adoption there
1569 2013-06-08 22:24:46 <sipa> maybe
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1572 2013-06-08 22:25:54 <SteveDekorte> I'm guessing existing capital controls effectively make bitcoin illegal in Argentina and Iran - I wonder how it's doing in those countries despite those controls
1573 2013-06-08 22:30:26 <rdponticelli> SteveDekorte: It's doing just fine in Argentina, at least by now... ;)
1574 2013-06-08 22:31:15 <rdponticelli> But I guess it's because it's still under the radar...
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1580 2013-06-08 22:36:07 <sipa> tumak, nsh: https://github.com/sipa/secp256k1/blob/master/src/impl/field_5x64.h
1581 2013-06-08 22:36:15 <nsh> ty
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1588 2013-06-08 22:48:24 <TheUni> sipa: ok, i've tried...
1589 2013-06-08 22:48:34 <TheUni> this might be the most insane thing i've ever worked with
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1599 2013-06-08 22:55:15 <sipa> TheUni: gitian? yeah it's a hell to get running
1600 2013-06-08 22:55:54 Subo1978 has joined
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1602 2013-06-08 22:59:32 * Luke-Jr imagines a gitian-Gentoo someday <.<
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1606 2013-06-08 23:00:25 <Luke-Jr> then you could have a p2p build/binary distribution system, where you tell it to just trust binaries signed by more than N trusted friends
1607 2013-06-08 23:00:39 <Luke-Jr> (or use SCIP? :o)
1608 2013-06-08 23:03:35 <nsh> SCIP?
1609 2013-06-08 23:04:10 <nsh> secure communications interoperatibility protocol
1610 2013-06-08 23:10:10 rdponticelli has joined
1611 2013-06-08 23:12:41 <Luke-Jr> nsh: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRcPReUpkcU
1612 2013-06-08 23:12:48 * nsh looks
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1614 2013-06-08 23:13:20 <Luke-Jr> nsh: in short, digital signatures to prove some output came from running some known code
1615 2013-06-08 23:13:36 <Luke-Jr> using math instead of digital restriction chips
1616 2013-06-08 23:13:51 <nsh> hmm
1617 2013-06-08 23:14:45 <nsh> a part of my brain is suspicious that there might be a catch. but first to watch video and read things
1618 2013-06-08 23:14:46 <nsh> ty
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1620 2013-06-08 23:16:00 <Luke-Jr> nsh: yeah, I'm not so sure I trust it
1621 2013-06-08 23:16:17 <Luke-Jr> no way am I going to understand 100+ pages of math proofs either :/
1622 2013-06-08 23:16:46 <nsh> mmm
1623 2013-06-08 23:16:55 zebedee_ is now known as Neil
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1625 2013-06-08 23:23:22 <sipa> tumak: added some assembly... still 30% slower than 5x52
1626 2013-06-08 23:23:26 <TheUni> sipa: any chance that if i hacked up the gitian descriptors so that they look correct, i could convice you to run it against my tree and see if it works?
1627 2013-06-08 23:23:37 <sipa> TheUni: sure
1628 2013-06-08 23:24:21 <TheUni> sipa: great, thanks. i think that would be more fruitful than trying to do it myself
1629 2013-06-08 23:25:04 <Luke-Jr> it's not *that* hard :P
1630 2013-06-08 23:25:14 <Luke-Jr> and we always need more gitian builders
1631 2013-06-08 23:25:48 Neozonz has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1632 2013-06-08 23:27:05 <TheUni> Luke-Jr: it's mainly a matter of frustration at the complication of something that should be so simple. i'm afraid if i mess with it too long i'll end up uninterested in continuing
1633 2013-06-08 23:27:24 <TheUni> so far i seem to have a virtual container inside a virtual machine. the mind boggles :)
1634 2013-06-08 23:28:10 <Luke-Jr> TheUni: I used to have a KVM inside a KVM :D
1635 2013-06-08 23:28:21 <sipa> it's VMs all the way down, anyway
1636 2013-06-08 23:29:02 <ShapeShifter499> hi
1637 2013-06-08 23:29:03 <ShapeShifter499> what ports does bitcoin require?
1638 2013-06-08 23:29:33 <sipa> by default, it uses 8333 for P2P communication (but being reachable is not required)
1639 2013-06-08 23:29:45 <sipa> and 8332 for RPC if you enable that (bitcoin-qt -server, or bitcoind always)
1640 2013-06-08 23:29:55 <TheUni> sipa: that's just madness. i have a solution in my sights, but it needs autotools first
1641 2013-06-08 23:30:12 <sipa> TheUni: i'm curious :)
1642 2013-06-08 23:30:22 <TheUni> so rather than ranting, i'll just ask you nicely to handle the ugly bits for me til then :)
1643 2013-06-08 23:30:38 <ShapeShifter499> I just got around to hostapd (turns my netbook into a wifi router) and I wanted to run a bitcoin-qt client there
1644 2013-06-08 23:30:40 digitalmagus has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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1646 2013-06-08 23:32:50 <TheUni> sipa: actually, i think i can just rip the script out of the descriptor and hack on that locally, then i should be able to tell if it works. ok if i send you a patch to try in the next few days?
1647 2013-06-08 23:33:26 <sipa> TheUni: just give me a url to a git branch, and i can build
1648 2013-06-08 23:33:38 <TheUni> roger, will do.
1649 2013-06-08 23:33:39 <sipa> TheUni: no need to change the git URL the gitian descriptor points to, btw
1650 2013-06-08 23:33:41 <TheUni> thanks as always.
1651 2013-06-08 23:34:07 <ShapeShifter499> sipa, know iptables?
1652 2013-06-08 23:34:15 <sipa> ShapeShifter499: hardly
1653 2013-06-08 23:34:32 <nsh> ShapeShifter499, what do you want to do?
1654 2013-06-08 23:34:58 <nsh> iptables incantations are jealously guarded by the guild of netmages
1655 2013-06-08 23:35:07 <ShapeShifter499> I'm wondering what to add to make sure bitcoin-qt works
1656 2013-06-08 23:35:23 tyn has joined
1657 2013-06-08 23:35:32 <ShapeShifter499> iptables -A INPUT -p tcp --dport 8333 -j ACCEPT seems right
1658 2013-06-08 23:35:32 <nsh> unless you have set up some filtering you shouldn't need to
1659 2013-06-08 23:35:41 * nsh nods
1660 2013-06-08 23:35:51 <ShapeShifter499> nsh, I have
1661 2013-06-08 23:36:00 <nsh> k
1662 2013-06-08 23:36:19 <nsh> see: http://squarethought.wordpress.com/2011/06/26/bitcoin-on-a-stick-usb/
1663 2013-06-08 23:36:20 <ShapeShifter499> I'm running bitcoin-qt on the same box that has my email account
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1667 2013-06-08 23:38:23 <ShapeShifter499> nsh, ah
1668 2013-06-08 23:38:35 <ShapeShifter499> ok then :D
1669 2013-06-08 23:38:49 <ShapeShifter499> sipa, nsh thanks for the help
1670 2013-06-08 23:38:53 Thepok has joined
1671 2013-06-08 23:38:56 <nsh> np
1672 2013-06-08 23:41:10 btcven has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
1673 2013-06-08 23:41:22 <ShapeShifter499> bitcoin-qt -server is just the gui-less version right>?
1674 2013-06-08 23:41:23 <ShapeShifter499> ?
1675 2013-06-08 23:41:43 andytoshi has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1676 2013-06-08 23:42:52 <sipa> no
1677 2013-06-08 23:42:56 <sipa> bitcoind is
1678 2013-06-08 23:42:57 andytoshi has joined
1679 2013-06-08 23:43:06 <sipa> bitcoin-qt -server means GUI + RPC
1680 2013-06-08 23:45:31 brson_ has quit (Quit: leaving)
1681 2013-06-08 23:45:45 <ShapeShifter499> if I want to help out the network do I need to run a server?
1682 2013-06-08 23:46:02 <sipa> no
1683 2013-06-08 23:46:18 <sipa> -server is just for RPC, so you can programmatically access it
1684 2013-06-08 23:46:27 <sipa> it always functions as a P2P node
1685 2013-06-08 23:47:01 <ShapeShifter499> ah
1686 2013-06-08 23:47:22 <ShapeShifter499> so configuring it to run at boot through the gui is good enough
1687 2013-06-08 23:47:35 <sipa> sure
1688 2013-06-08 23:47:50 <Luke-Jr> ShapeShifter499: forwarding port 8333 helps
1689 2013-06-08 23:47:54 <ShapeShifter499> that to
1690 2013-06-08 23:47:57 <ShapeShifter499> *too
1691 2013-06-08 23:48:17 <ShapeShifter499> any security concerns I should know?
1692 2013-06-08 23:48:51 <ShapeShifter499> this will be ran on my netbook which functions as a wifi router and a email server currently
1693 2013-06-08 23:48:52 <Diablo-D3> ShapeShifter499: yes, the NSA may have already placed you on a terrorist list for joining this channel
1694 2013-06-08 23:49:09 <ShapeShifter499> meh
1695 2013-06-08 23:49:13 <sipa> ShapeShifter499: how much RAM free?
1696 2013-06-08 23:49:17 rdymac has joined
1697 2013-06-08 23:49:17 <ShapeShifter499> Diablo-D3, nice
1698 2013-06-08 23:49:40 <ShapeShifter499> sipa, once booted up I'd say around 700 mb left
1699 2013-06-08 23:51:47 <ShapeShifter499> total is 1.5 gigs of ram
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1702 2013-06-08 23:53:50 <nsh> just buy clarkm pizza and you get put on the NSA goodguy list
1703 2013-06-08 23:55:32 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2750#issuecomment-19156405 I want to ACK this, but do I count?
1704 2013-06-08 23:56:53 <petertodd> warren: the first step towards your ACK counting is having the confidence that your ACK counts
1705 2013-06-08 23:57:35 <petertodd> warren: the second step is not ACKing bad ideas
1706 2013-06-08 23:59:05 <nsh> the third step is usually onto a rake, whose stick proceeds to hit you in the forehead
1707 2013-06-08 23:59:48 <petertodd> nsh: that's why prolific developers look like klingons