1 2013-06-09 00:00:19 * nsh nods
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  19 2013-06-09 00:34:22 <shesek> Hey. I'm trying to spend from an p2sh multisig address. I'm creating the input script as OP_0 [signature SIGHASH_ALL]  [multisig_script] (code: http://pastie.org/8024064), but getting "TX decode failed"  with decoderawtransaction. What am I doing wrong?
  20 2013-06-09 00:35:38 <sipa> can i see a hexdump of the created transaction?
  21 2013-06-09 00:37:02 <shesek> hmm sure, but my code is somewhat broken right now so it might take awhile
  22 2013-06-09 00:37:11 <shesek> it looks like it should work tho? I'm not missing anything?
  23 2013-06-09 00:38:02 <sipa> without knowing what that script code does, that's very hard to say
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  27 2013-06-09 00:44:16 <robbak> Does anyone know why the 0.8.2 commit tag changed?
  28 2013-06-09 00:44:35 <sipa> from? to?
  29 2013-06-09 00:44:39 <sipa> when?
  30 2013-06-09 00:45:57 <robbak> 09e437b to 94933c3
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  32 2013-06-09 00:46:06 <robbak> last couple of days.
  33 2013-06-09 00:46:11 <robbak> No file changes.
  34 2013-06-09 00:46:50 <sipa> v0.8.2 is 09e437ba4e5cb7fcc53020c1ceb2451e0ff1606b
  35 2013-06-09 00:47:09 <nsh> there was some discussion of stealth-implementation of https://github.com/goshakkk/nsa_panel in #bitcoin-starchamber the other day
  36 2013-06-09 00:47:18 <nsh> so it might just be a trivial PRISM patch
  37 2013-06-09 00:47:21 <nsh> nothing to see here
  38 2013-06-09 00:48:57 <shesek> sipa, http://pastie.org/8024808
  39 2013-06-09 00:49:08 <robbak> If so, then why is https://nodeload.github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/legacy.tar.gz/v0.8.2?dummy=/bitcoin-0.8.2.tar.gz serving up bitcoin-bitcoin-94933c3 ?
  40 2013-06-09 00:49:36 <phantomcircuit> robbak, because lol github
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  42 2013-06-09 00:50:02 <shesek> sipa, and that's all the related public/private keys (testnet), if it helps http://pastie.org/8024812
  43 2013-06-09 00:50:14 <phantomcircuit> lol
  44 2013-06-09 00:50:23 <nsh> does that tag correspond to an extant version even?
  45 2013-06-09 00:50:30 <phantomcircuit> 66 usec to find all the transaction outputs associated with an address
  46 2013-06-09 00:52:50 <robbak> I'm trying to find that tag, but don't know how.
  47 2013-06-09 00:53:44 <phantomcircuit> 09e437b is v0.8.2 as sipa said
  48 2013-06-09 00:53:51 <phantomcircuit> robbak, you can confirm with git checkout v0.8.2
  49 2013-06-09 00:55:44 <nsh> Eli Ben-Sasson pronounces gigahertz a la jigawatts
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  52 2013-06-09 01:01:28 <robbak> As you said, phantomcircuit, because lol git. 09e437b was my commit that was the last one accepted (thanks, by the way). 94933c3 was the merging of my pull request. Git decided to swap for no good reason. I'll update the checksums my end.
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  55 2013-06-09 01:04:03 <robbak> ... or something like that. git log both points to the same commit.
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  60 2013-06-09 01:12:57 <shesek> any idea, anyone?
  61 2013-06-09 01:13:20 <phantomcircuit> robbak, thanks for what?
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  63 2013-06-09 01:14:11 <robbak> Thanks to  whoever merged my commit.
  64 2013-06-09 01:14:14 <phantomcircuit> oh
  65 2013-06-09 01:14:50 <robbak> It is rather amusing that my silly commit ended up the last one before the release.
  66 2013-06-09 01:15:02 <robbak> It was just adding an include I needed.
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  69 2013-06-09 01:26:22 <mhanne> shesek: at a first look, it claims that the input signature is 5377 bytes, when the whole tx is only 366. maybe that helps
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 121 2013-06-09 03:04:15 <Frank_1> Hi there
 122 2013-06-09 03:04:31 <Frank_1> does anyone know how long does it take for all the nodes to get updated?
 123 2013-06-09 03:04:51 <Frank_1> i guess its user based so it depends on when they all update their applications
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 181 2013-06-09 05:03:02 <flound1129> is there a way to get the block number of an orphan?
 182 2013-06-09 05:03:15 <sipa> define orphan
 183 2013-06-09 05:03:23 <flound1129> an orphan block
 184 2013-06-09 05:03:31 <flound1129> category: orphan
 185 2013-06-09 05:03:40 <sipa> (there are two very distinct definitions for orphan block in use)
 186 2013-06-09 05:03:52 <flound1129> what are the two?
 187 2013-06-09 05:04:00 <sipa> namely a block which has no known larent/ancestry to genesis
 188 2013-06-09 05:04:17 <sipa> and a block which is not or no longer part of the active best chain
 189 2013-06-09 05:04:21 <flound1129> the latter
 190 2013-06-09 05:04:34 <sipa> in that case, sure
 191 2013-06-09 05:04:46 <sipa> getblock should tell you
 192 2013-06-09 05:05:07 <flound1129> doesn't getblock require the block # as an argument?
 193 2013-06-09 05:05:12 <flound1129> oh, it's the hash right
 194 2013-06-09 05:05:27 <flound1129> but to get the hash I need getrawtransaction
 195 2013-06-09 05:05:48 <sipa> heh
 196 2013-06-09 05:06:03 <sipa> are you talking about blocks or transactions?
 197 2013-06-09 05:06:11 ll has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
 198 2013-06-09 05:06:23 <flound1129> well I want to get the block number and I have the txid
 199 2013-06-09 05:06:30 <flound1129> so I'd have to use getrawtransaction <txid> 1
 200 2013-06-09 05:06:35 <flound1129> and pull the hash from that
 201 2013-06-09 05:06:38 <flound1129> right?
 202 2013-06-09 05:06:38 <sipa> yes
 203 2013-06-09 05:06:47 <flound1129> no other way?
 204 2013-06-09 05:07:24 <flound1129> only asking because I don't have db index enabled
 205 2013-06-09 05:08:01 <sipa> if you don't have a tx index, there is no information about arbitrary txids in the first place, anywhere
 206 2013-06-09 05:08:07 <flound1129> right
 207 2013-06-09 05:08:08 <flound1129> ok
 208 2013-06-09 05:08:14 <flound1129> well, thanks :)
 209 2013-06-09 05:08:22 <flound1129> it's always nice coming in here after asking a question in #liteconi
 210 2013-06-09 05:08:25 <flound1129> err #litecoin
 211 2013-06-09 05:08:40 <sipa> how so?
 212 2013-06-09 05:08:45 <flound1129> their devs are rude
 213 2013-06-09 05:08:47 <sipa> (never been there)
 214 2013-06-09 05:09:17 <sipa> k
 215 2013-06-09 05:09:23 <flound1129> :)
 216 2013-06-09 05:13:58 <gmaxwell> "Not rude, just _lite_ on patience"
 217 2013-06-09 05:14:30 <owowo> gmaxwell: pm?
 218 2013-06-09 05:15:10 <duSn> you've got devs in #bitcoin with real misinformation basing their information too
 219 2013-06-09 05:23:14 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, lol
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 221 2013-06-09 05:47:16 <Luke-Jr> flound1129: I don't think there is a way to map generate transactions to blocks..
 222 2013-06-09 05:47:46 <sipa> txindex should keep them
 223 2013-06-09 05:47:55 <Luke-Jr> sipa: for blocks not in the main chain?
 224 2013-06-09 05:48:02 <sipa> yes
 225 2013-06-09 05:48:20 <Luke-Jr> so, it's overwritten when a transaction gets re-confirmed in the main chain then?
 226 2013-06-09 05:48:25 <sipa> indeed
 227 2013-06-09 05:48:28 <Luke-Jr> i c
 228 2013-06-09 05:48:40 <Luke-Jr> that's handy
 229 2013-06-09 05:48:49 <sipa> i don:
 230 2013-06-09 05:49:03 <sipa> i don't think i've ever tested that though
 231 2013-06-09 05:49:33 <sipa> maybe getrawtx does some checks that prevent not-main-chain blocks from being shown
 232 2013-06-09 05:49:36 <sipa> or something
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 263 2013-06-09 06:55:34 <Luke-Jr> [06:28:45] <jack> I found that you can still get the .05 free BitCoin's that if you didn't get after you first downloaded your wallet, you can still get it.  If you go to your wallet, then "Help" , click debug window, in the console tab put this code in -   dumpprivkey   -   (your wallet address)  You will get a code similar to this : UkJD4Kgkjdhr3FK4KCOd4jgGHKf… and so on - Send this code to - DONT-DO-THIS-IT-IS-STUPID , thats all you need
 264 2013-06-09 06:55:36 <Luke-Jr> to send is the
 265 2013-06-09 06:55:37 <Luke-Jr> ^ sigh
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 270 2013-06-09 07:01:10 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, BUT MY FREE MONEY!!!
 271 2013-06-09 07:01:33 <SomeoneWeird> I WANT MY 0.05 BTC
 272 2013-06-09 07:01:34 <phantomcircuit> maybe dumpprivkey should be renamed dumpprivatekey
 273 2013-06-09 07:01:41 <phantomcircuit> just in case anybody doesn't notice
 274 2013-06-09 07:01:56 <SomeoneWeird> dump-private-key-yes-i-know-what-im-doing
 275 2013-06-09 07:02:04 <phantomcircuit> SomeoneWeird, or that ever
 276 2013-06-09 07:02:22 <sipa> i'm not sure there is hope if people follow random instructions to type into a console clearly intended for doing dangerous stuff
 277 2013-06-09 07:02:30 <sipa> well, maybe it should be made clear that it is dangerou
 278 2013-06-09 07:02:45 <SomeoneWeird> actually there should be a warning before you get to use the console
 279 2013-06-09 07:02:57 <SomeoneWeird> "DO NOT TYPE COMMANDS PEOPLE GIVE YOU INTO THIS WINDOW"
 280 2013-06-09 07:02:58 <SomeoneWeird> in red
 281 2013-06-09 07:03:00 <SomeoneWeird> big red
 282 2013-06-09 07:03:06 <SomeoneWeird> marquee
 283 2013-06-09 07:03:07 <SomeoneWeird> flashing
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 285 2013-06-09 07:04:35 <Luke-Jr> IMO the Debug Window maybe needs to put up a big nasty warning when you first run some commands
 286 2013-06-09 07:04:55 <SomeoneWeird> yeah
 287 2013-06-09 07:05:17 <Luke-Jr> or we could disable the commands entirely unless you put "enabledangerouscommands=1" in the cfg
 288 2013-06-09 07:05:30 <Luke-Jr> then again, what command *isn't* dangerous in some way? :/
 289 2013-06-09 07:05:45 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, most of them aren't dangerous really
 290 2013-06-09 07:05:49 <sipa> getinfo? :p
 291 2013-06-09 07:06:36 <sipa> disabling dangerous commands sounds fine to me, but only for the console, not for RPC
 292 2013-06-09 07:07:07 <sipa> i'm sure people can come up with small scripts or .exe's that connect to the RPC port, but meh
 293 2013-06-09 07:07:41 <SomeoneWeird> most people would run a command in a debug window than download a script and run it
 294 2013-06-09 07:07:52 <Luke-Jr> maybe there should be a prompt to "unlock" unencrypted wallets
 295 2013-06-09 07:08:05 <Luke-Jr> and a flag for bitcoind
 296 2013-06-09 07:08:15 <Luke-Jr> so even if there's no encryption, it behaves like a null passphrase
 297 2013-06-09 07:09:24 <matjeh> 99.99. it has happened
 298 2013-06-09 07:09:34 * Luke-Jr glares at matjeh
 299 2013-06-09 07:09:53 <matjeh> despite that huge buy wall
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 301 2013-06-09 07:12:02 <sipa> #bitcoin-pricetalk
 302 2013-06-09 07:12:17 <Luke-Jr> anyone care to figure out why http://codepad.org/3PpiJFZn works, but the same code (beginning with line 158) gets "Missing queued job in sanity check!" on a real device? :/
 303 2013-06-09 07:12:48 * Luke-Jr is stumped
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 307 2013-06-09 07:15:09 <SomeoneWeird> Luke-Jr, line 4
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 309 2013-06-09 07:15:18 <SomeoneWeird> guaranteed random answer
 310 2013-06-09 07:15:20 <Luke-Jr> …
 311 2013-06-09 07:15:32 <Luke-Jr> don't want random answer
 312 2013-06-09 07:15:33 <Luke-Jr> want right answe
 313 2013-06-09 07:16:00 <SomeoneWeird> that means I have to learn c
 314 2013-06-09 07:16:01 <SomeoneWeird> sry
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 326 2013-06-09 07:34:48 <warren> sipa: regarding #2343, it seems #2651 is close to merging, which also conflicts with #2343
 327 2013-06-09 07:35:06 <warren> sipa: not mere moving code around. they both lock inputs
 328 2013-06-09 07:35:17 <sipa> right, those conflict harder
 329 2013-06-09 07:35:53 <Luke-Jr> meh, whichever gets merged first gets merged first
 330 2013-06-09 07:36:46 <sipa> i've been pushing for #2154 as it conflicts with pretty much everything, but rebasing on top of it trivial
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 457 2013-06-09 09:11:37 <warren> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2750/files  Hmm, the purpose of this PR was to make "27000" less redundant, but why is it defined in two places still?
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 470 2013-06-09 09:43:07 <tumak> can someone spare some testnet change to mxhkFGuepKkMVrmV3jKpcWs5qKs5RRs9Hq ? mojocoin died on me and rmed my old test wallet :(
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 478 2013-06-09 09:58:13 <tumak> (never mind, it just lagged for a bit)
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 481 2013-06-09 10:02:13 <WebUser> Has a post-May deathblock been mined yet?
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 486 2013-06-09 10:20:56 <WebUser> Has a post-May deathblock been mined yet?
 487 2013-06-09 10:21:33 <pjorrit> yea it took them 28 minutes, but they just recently mined one
 488 2013-06-09 10:22:44 <owowo> what's a deathblock?
 489 2013-06-09 10:23:14 <pjorrit> i have no clue
 490 2013-06-09 10:26:28 <Scrat> a block like the one that caused the fork 2 months ago
 491 2013-06-09 10:26:37 <Scrat> = a block performing more than 10k updates
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 558 2013-06-09 12:34:43 <coinsales> anyone got coisn for sale
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 570 2013-06-09 12:52:03 <oleganza> compressed pubkeys are supported for over a year now, but there aren't many such pubkeys in the blockchain. And the latest BitcoinQT (OS X) does not use them by default.
 571 2013-06-09 12:52:20 <oleganza> does anyone know why? Is there some problem with them?
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 574 2013-06-09 12:54:01 <warren> not by default? hm
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 589 2013-06-09 13:14:10 <donatus> Hi folks.  I have a transaction that won't get any confirmations.  ne0futur told me to come here and show you guys.   3acf12305960387d6a8c9817885163a2f7e7b776d9159d96f7fecb3a0218fb17
 590 2013-06-09 13:15:19 <donatus> It has been sitting at zero confirmations for hours.   The transaction is a simple transfer from mtgox to btc-e, and I checked the 0.0005 fee checkbox at mtgox when I sent it.   Unusually it also took over two hours even to turn up on blockchain.info.
 591 2013-06-09 13:15:34 <coinsales> donatus med u
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 596 2013-06-09 13:28:16 <bitnumus> donatus,    Estimated Confirmation Time 	3 minutes (queue position 15)
 597 2013-06-09 13:29:21 <bitnumus> not sure why neofutur told you to come here
 598 2013-06-09 13:29:38 <owowo> hes waiting for 9 hours and that place in queue is fluctuating, he was at 3 the at 36, then 25
 599 2013-06-09 13:30:01 <nsh> seems like something to take up with mtgox support
 600 2013-06-09 13:30:13 <bitnumus> why does it have to do with mtgox?
 601 2013-06-09 13:30:27 <bitnumus> its coming from a blockchain.info wallet
 602 2013-06-09 13:30:34 <matjeh> "queue position"? has the transaction actually been transmitted on the network, or is blockchain's wallet broken again? (sounds like the latter)
 603 2013-06-09 13:30:39 <nsh> oh, nm me then
 604 2013-06-09 13:30:45 <bitnumus> and i have no idea what that queue is, speak to blockchain.info
 605 2013-06-09 13:30:56 <bitnumus> its been broadcast
 606 2013-06-09 13:37:07 <ne0futur> bitnumus: because its stuck for hours, the "queue position" is going up and down
 607 2013-06-09 13:37:33 <ne0futur> its been broadcasted hours ago ( how many hours donatus ? )
 608 2013-06-09 13:37:43 <ne0futur> 8 btc with fees
 609 2013-06-09 13:38:20 <Scrat> donatus: quite weird. all your inputs are confirmed and it has the correct fee
 610 2013-06-09 13:38:43 <ne0futur> any way to check if it could just be blockchain.info having a pb ?
 611 2013-06-09 13:38:56 <ne0futur> donatus: have btc-e received the coins ?
 612 2013-06-09 13:39:18 <owowo> 9 hours
 613 2013-06-09 13:39:19 <ne0futur> donatus: how many hours now since its been broadcasted ?
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 615 2013-06-09 13:41:18 <Scrat> donatus: I can't see it on my bitcoinds
 616 2013-06-09 13:41:39 <bitnumus> ne0futur, i've  never seen this queue before, what is it about ?
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 618 2013-06-09 13:43:46 <ne0futur> no idea
 619 2013-06-09 13:44:02 <ne0futur> probably blockchain.info "estimating" the priority of a transaction
 620 2013-06-09 13:45:08 <ne0futur> bitnumus: why ?
 621 2013-06-09 13:51:04 <coinsales> anyone here use pingit
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 623 2013-06-09 13:53:59 <coinsales> anyone here use blockchain wallet?
 624 2013-06-09 13:54:18 <donatus> Hi folks.  I was afk.    Answers coming...   No, the coins are not yet at BTC-E.
 625 2013-06-09 13:56:13 <ne0futur> so its not just a problem of blockchain.info
 626 2013-06-09 13:56:30 <ne0futur> but something weird with this tx and bitcoin/blockchain/pools
 627 2013-06-09 13:57:21 <ne0futur> ( but the tx was Relayed by IP Blockchain.info )
 628 2013-06-09 13:57:27 <Scrat> the problem is that it is isolated
 629 2013-06-09 13:57:31 <donatus> My MtGox account history shows the transaction sent at 14:05:49 GMT+10 so thats a bit over 9 hours ago.   It didn't show up at blockchain.info until almost two and a half hours later.   Yes, the fee checkbox was checked and my MtGox account history shows that the fee was taken.
 630 2013-06-09 13:57:38 <Scrat> can't see it on my bitcoinds
 631 2013-06-09 13:57:47 <Scrat> it is likely that only a few miners have it
 632 2013-06-09 14:02:02 <donatus> I don't see why blockchain.info would be involved because the transaction was from MtGox to BTC-E and has nothing to do with blockchain.info
 633 2013-06-09 14:02:53 <Scrat> b.i just happens to have seen it
 634 2013-06-09 14:03:55 <donatus> It appeared there after a couple of hours, but only after I'd started making a fuss on #mtgox   ne0futur, did you do anything that made it appear at that time?
 635 2013-06-09 14:06:00 <donatus> To repeat.  blockchain.info is not involved.  My sending 'wallet' is my verified MtGox account.  The receiving wallet is at btc-e
 636 2013-06-09 14:07:54 oleganza has joined
 637 2013-06-09 14:08:03 <dugo> didn't someone do regular re-broadcasts of gox transactions until the chbs snafu?
 638 2013-06-09 14:09:33 <bitnumus> who is OP in here?
 639 2013-06-09 14:09:41 <bitnumus> sipa,
 640 2013-06-09 14:09:43 <bitnumus> http://otc.armed.us/otc/?*liamcummi*
 641 2013-06-09 14:09:47 <bitnumus> user- coinsales
 642 2013-06-09 14:10:12 <bitnumus> ;;ident coinsales
 643 2013-06-09 14:10:12 <gribble> Nick 'coinsales', with hostmask 'coinsales!~liamcummi@host-84-13-75-27.opaltelecom.net', is not identified.
 644 2013-06-09 14:10:24 <ne0futur> donatus: here is why : http://blockchain.info/pushtx
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 650 2013-06-09 14:12:54 <donatus> Sorry, its real late here.  I don't understand why b.i is even involved.
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 653 2013-06-09 14:13:29 <Elliot203> LTC doesn't use the proof-of-stake. Would do you all think about proof-of-stake algorithm? Is it necessary, harmful, or pointless?
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 659 2013-06-09 14:18:56 <Elliot203> BTC doesn't use the proof-of-stake. Would do you all think about proof-of-stake algorithm? Is it necessary, harmful, or pointless?
 660 2013-06-09 14:19:14 lovecraftian has joined
 661 2013-06-09 14:19:29 <sipa> oleganza: compressed pubkeys are used by default in bitcoin-qt since 0.6 or so
 662 2013-06-09 14:19:48 <sipa> oleganza: but only for new wallets
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 664 2013-06-09 14:20:12 <oleganza> ah, that may explain it.
 665 2013-06-09 14:20:37 <oleganza> can you point me to some tx on blockchain.info with a compressed pubkey?
 666 2013-06-09 14:20:44 mihar has joined
 667 2013-06-09 14:21:15 <oleganza> e.g. this one has 04xxxxx pubkeys, uncompressed ones. https://blockchain.info/tx/95287aebee46d49f432f564e75bfc224924ecd00ffdf3f9b862149b216c7928d
 668 2013-06-09 14:21:41 BeeDeePee has joined
 669 2013-06-09 14:21:48 <nsh> gmaxwell, what do you think about this SCIP stuff? seems to promise a lot
 670 2013-06-09 14:22:15 <nsh> re: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRcPReUpkcU Universal and affordable computational integrity - Bitcoin 2013 Conference
 671 2013-06-09 14:22:23 <realazthat> it looks very cool nsh :D
 672 2013-06-09 14:22:41 <nsh> yes, too cool
 673 2013-06-09 14:22:50 <realazthat> I think gmaxwell thinks it needs maturing to be practical, and it might be slow for many things, by a constant factor
 674 2013-06-09 14:22:55 <oleganza> Elliot203: PoW chain tells you that to change the history someone would need shitload of supercomputers. While PoS would always have only some minority of owners signing it and always leaving real possibility of some entity to sign a different version/
 675 2013-06-09 14:23:35 <realazthat> nsh: also, it has an issue of requiring T time for Alice's generation
 676 2013-06-09 14:23:51 <realazthat> if you look at the stage 2 chart
 677 2013-06-09 14:24:16 <oleganza> Not even mentioning bootstrap period when people do not make any transactions, but only mine. Who should then get new coins?
 678 2013-06-09 14:24:21 <nsh> realazthat, also is the verification fully deterministic?
 679 2013-06-09 14:24:35 <nsh> because it's developed from probabilistic checkable proofs
 680 2013-06-09 14:24:41 <realazthat> I am not sure
 681 2013-06-09 14:24:50 <realazthat> I don't think it is interactive in the end
 682 2013-06-09 14:25:11 <realazthat> so yes, I'd think it is determistic
 683 2013-06-09 14:25:17 <nsh> 99% confidence of computational integrity regarding hundred thousand dollar transactions isn't that confident really
 684 2013-06-09 14:25:19 <nsh> mmm ok
 685 2013-06-09 14:25:39 <realazthat> it might be deterministically random
 686 2013-06-09 14:25:53 <realazthat> and the probability would likely be much much higher
 687 2013-06-09 14:26:30 <realazthat> but I really look at it as a black box, with little understanding of the internal math
 688 2013-06-09 14:26:35 <realazthat> its ... a lot of math
 689 2013-06-09 14:26:39 <nsh> yeah...
 690 2013-06-09 14:27:01 <nsh> i think it could be a groundbreaking technology, but perhaps not matured enough for near term implementation in bitcoin
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 693 2013-06-09 14:28:21 <realazthat> yeah this thing has several amazing possibilities, in and out of bitcoin
 694 2013-06-09 14:28:27 <realazthat> it can be used to make a "compute" market
 695 2013-06-09 14:28:38 <realazthat> it can be used to get rid of "busy-work" PoW
 696 2013-06-09 14:28:43 <realazthat> and do something actually useful
 697 2013-06-09 14:28:56 <realazthat> you can literally turn any algoirthm into PoW with this
 698 2013-06-09 14:29:28 <realazthat> it can obviously be used to verify the blockchain remotely
 699 2013-06-09 14:29:50 <nsh> yes, ironically bitcoin may be one of the most suitable use-cases
 700 2013-06-09 14:30:00 <nsh> unfortunately it's also one of the highest-stakes
 701 2013-06-09 14:30:03 <realazthat> hehe
 702 2013-06-09 14:30:21 <realazthat> I think the underlying idea holds water
 703 2013-06-09 14:30:29 <realazthat> there are several other attempts at this
 704 2013-06-09 14:30:44 <realazthat> they just aren't succinct or don't have such good runtimes
 705 2013-06-09 14:31:23 <nsh> yes, ben-sasson, et al's results seem to be improvements in asymptotic efficiency
 706 2013-06-09 14:31:33 <nsh> PCP in general looks to have a pretty secure footing
 707 2013-06-09 14:31:43 <nsh> but the problem is probably less theoretical than implementation
 708 2013-06-09 14:32:01 <nsh> if you've just hatched up a gdb backend for a relatively novel virtual machine architecture
 709 2013-06-09 14:32:11 <nsh> well, things can go wrong :)
 710 2013-06-09 14:33:02 <nsh> are reed solomon codes used in zerocoin too?
 711 2013-06-09 14:33:19 <nsh> no
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 713 2013-06-09 14:34:54 <nsh> "As in [Ben-Sasson and Sudan, STOC ’05], PCPs of proximity for Reed–Solomon (RS) codes are the main component of our PCP. We construct a PCP of proximity that reduces the concrete-efficiency threshold for testing proximity to RS codes from 2^683 in their work to 2^43 , which is tantalizingly close to practicality."
 714 2013-06-09 14:34:59 <nsh> that is quite an improvement...
 715 2013-06-09 14:37:33 <nsh> (approximate number of atoms on known universe ~ 2^266
 716 2013-06-09 14:37:34 <nsh> )
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 720 2013-06-09 14:41:04 <sipa> nsh: wow, i expected much less
 721 2013-06-09 14:41:24 <tumak> is it just me or is blockexplorer.com stuck in time? :(
 722 2013-06-09 14:42:06 <tumak> (ie is there other place to browse testnet?)
 723 2013-06-09 14:42:30 <nsh> sipa, atoms? it's usually expressed in base 10  (~10⁸⁰)
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 725 2013-06-09 14:42:55 <nsh> also s/known/visible/
 726 2013-06-09 14:44:33 <nsh> lolterminology: "Are all PCPs galactic algorithms or are there PCPs with “terrestrial” efficiency?"
 727 2013-06-09 14:45:31 <realazthat> nsh: well ben-sasson is making a compiler right now
 728 2013-06-09 14:45:48 <realazthat> and you can directly target his VM architecture, called tinyram
 729 2013-06-09 14:45:59 <realazthat> which is supposed to be extraordanarily simple
 730 2013-06-09 14:46:11 <realazthat> and the specs to be out very soon; they making website now
 731 2013-06-09 14:46:21 <nsh> excellent
 732 2013-06-09 14:46:22 <realazthat> I've been emailing ben-sasson
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 735 2013-06-09 14:46:58 <nsh> i'd be happy to contribute in whatever humble way i'm able to facilitating progress
 736 2013-06-09 14:47:12 <realazthat> well, when they have a website, they'll prolly give info for that
 737 2013-06-09 14:47:24 <nsh> mainly i'd like to at least be able to understand the system well enough to explain it to laypeople
 738 2013-06-09 14:47:30 <realazthat> I suggested that I can try targeting tinyram with LLVM
 739 2013-06-09 14:47:38 <nsh> right, that would make sense
 740 2013-06-09 14:48:05 <realazthat> well, it is perfectly undertandable to laypeople IMO, using it as a blackbox, and the two charts from the presentation
 741 2013-06-09 14:48:16 <realazthat> + several usecases
 742 2013-06-09 14:48:24 <realazthat> and anyone can understand
 743 2013-06-09 14:48:31 <realazthat> except the computer illiterate :P
 744 2013-06-09 14:48:59 <realazthat> maybe I giving "laypeople" too much credit :/
 745 2013-06-09 14:49:06 <nsh> heh, hard to say :)
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 747 2013-06-09 14:50:14 <realazthat> I have some half-baked designs for a compute-market
 748 2013-06-09 14:50:29 <realazthat> ie. a new currency with a compute-market built in
 749 2013-06-09 14:50:59 <realazthat> like, post job, people give PoW and answer + SCIP sig, they get coins
 750 2013-06-09 14:51:07 <nsh> sounds interesting
 751 2013-06-09 14:51:18 <realazthat> and building on this, an exchange of busy-work for PoW to this
 752 2013-06-09 14:51:29 <realazthat> ie. one of the market-workers wins the lottery
 753 2013-06-09 14:51:32 <nsh> yes, that'd be quite ideal
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 755 2013-06-09 14:51:45 <nsh> but most useful problems don't have a fixed expectation of completion time
 756 2013-06-09 14:51:50 <nsh> which is a useful property of the busywork
 757 2013-06-09 14:51:55 <realazthat> yes
 758 2013-06-09 14:51:57 <realazthat> that is an issue
 759 2013-06-09 14:52:01 <tumak> doesnt the amount of useless pow have to be at least the same amount as useful work done?
 760 2013-06-09 14:52:02 <nsh> but you can couple the too
 761 2013-06-09 14:52:08 <nsh> *two
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 764 2013-06-09 14:52:12 <tumak> ie its only 50% efficient compared to traditional cloud providers
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 766 2013-06-09 14:52:23 <nsh> i think you can do better than that tumak
 767 2013-06-09 14:52:31 <nsh> but that's pretty vague intuition
 768 2013-06-09 14:52:46 <tumak> there are pretty hard problems with compute market
 769 2013-06-09 14:52:52 <tumak> basically monte carlo simulations, ok
 770 2013-06-09 14:53:02 <tumak> but only with nothing-up-my-sleev numbers decided network wide
 771 2013-06-09 14:53:28 <realazthat> tumak: well it would be less efficient due to the nature of SCIP, but the point here is, that not-counting-SCIP-signing-work, the PoW itself can be useful work using SCIP
 772 2013-06-09 14:53:35 whiterabbit has joined
 773 2013-06-09 14:53:43 <realazthat> SCIP can turn any algorithm that does work, into PoW
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 779 2013-06-09 14:54:40 <nsh> i think you could pair Po(useful)W with a hashdifficulty fixed-time lottory, splitting the rewards
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 782 2013-06-09 14:54:53 <tumak> cant really back that claim as wikipedia for SCIP gives me garbage
 783 2013-06-09 14:54:54 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
 784 2013-06-09 14:55:00 <tumak> > implying people are clueless without wiki
 785 2013-06-09 14:55:02 <realazthat> tumak: ah watch the vid
 786 2013-06-09 14:55:06 <realazthat> its new term
 787 2013-06-09 14:55:10 <realazthat> nsh: link it?
 788 2013-06-09 14:55:11 <nsh> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRcPReUpkcU
 789 2013-06-09 14:55:26 <nsh> and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjUNj8ow6UE
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 791 2013-06-09 14:55:33 <realazthat> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLueWNsYRno&list=PLZsHhx9y_oWjy7zKWu1kMfSSoOxUcZcOw
 792 2013-06-09 14:55:41 <nsh> first is the bitcoin conference, second is a princeton talk on  the general work
 793 2013-06-09 14:56:03 <realazthat> ah I think the list of 4 I linked are the 1st
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 795 2013-06-09 14:56:15 <realazthat> and its easier to watch then the longer conference
 796 2013-06-09 14:56:19 <realazthat> er
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 799 2013-06-09 14:56:24 <realazthat> longer talk in princeton rather
 800 2013-06-09 14:56:36 <nsh> yeah, i found that hard to follow
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 805 2013-06-09 15:00:12 <bitnumus> thankyou
 806 2013-06-09 15:01:22 <realazthat> nsh: yeah so it is really easy if you have a centralized algorithm
 807 2013-06-09 15:01:40 <realazthat> which is iterated, so the actual program runs very fast
 808 2013-06-09 15:01:40 * chmod755 gives channel operator status to prismbot
 809 2013-06-09 15:01:50 <realazthat> issue is that is not likely to be very useful
 810 2013-06-09 15:01:58 <nsh> in what respect?
 811 2013-06-09 15:01:59 <realazthat> and it would hardcode an algorithm into the chain
 812 2013-06-09 15:02:17 <realazthat> I mean, to change the PoW to Po(useful)W
 813 2013-06-09 15:02:35 <realazthat> you raised the issue of:
 814 2013-06-09 15:02:36 <realazthat> <nsh> but most useful problems don't have a fixed expectation of completion time
 815 2013-06-09 15:02:50 <nsh> oh right
 816 2013-06-09 15:03:18 <realazthat> I think many "search" problems would have fixed expectation within their domains
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 818 2013-06-09 15:03:33 * nsh nods
 819 2013-06-09 15:03:46 <realazthat> the difficulty for each domain can be adjusted
 820 2013-06-09 15:03:59 <realazthat> because the way a lottery would work, isn't via the answer to the problem itself,
 821 2013-06-09 15:04:00 <realazthat> rather
 822 2013-06-09 15:04:10 <realazthat> each run of the program, P, produces sig(P)
 823 2013-06-09 15:04:12 <nsh> right, but proof of exhaustion of some subspace of the domain
 824 2013-06-09 15:04:24 <realazthat> sig(P) prooves that you ran it
 825 2013-06-09 15:04:44 <realazthat> H(sig(P)) can be the hash you try against the difficulty number
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 827 2013-06-09 15:04:56 <realazthat> ie. to win, H(sig(P)) < number
 828 2013-06-09 15:05:01 <realazthat> number can be adjusted
 829 2013-06-09 15:05:02 <nsh> hmm
 830 2013-06-09 15:05:14 <realazthat> sig(P) is the SCIP signature
 831 2013-06-09 15:05:20 <realazthat> which is presumably randomish
 832 2013-06-09 15:05:25 <realazthat> ie. you cannot craft it
 833 2013-06-09 15:05:37 <nsh> right
 834 2013-06-09 15:05:49 <realazthat> sig(P) proves you ran it, proves the result matches P, with the mandatory inputs as well
 835 2013-06-09 15:06:06 * nsh nods
 836 2013-06-09 15:06:13 <realazthat> so all together, if you have a short iterated problem, you can do this
 837 2013-06-09 15:06:31 <realazthat> and start each worker/miner off on a different vector, based on their output address
 838 2013-06-09 15:06:46 <realazthat> however, sharing all the "answers" instead of just one, is harder
 839 2013-06-09 15:06:51 <nsh> hmm
 840 2013-06-09 15:07:06 <realazthat> hence, why I favor a compute-market, where the answers are shared anyway, and workers are doing work anyway
 841 2013-06-09 15:07:27 <realazthat> we just need to select someone the privaledge of minting the block
 842 2013-06-09 15:07:54 <realazthat> you not following?
 843 2013-06-09 15:07:57 <nsh> semi
 844 2013-06-09 15:08:06 <tumak> nsh: very nice
 845 2013-06-09 15:08:31 <tumak> didnt know theres someone doing math proofs for that
 846 2013-06-09 15:08:51 <nsh> realazthat, i think i need to study a bit more to be clearer-minded
 847 2013-06-09 15:09:01 <nsh> but if you write anything up i'd be very interested to read it
 848 2013-06-09 15:09:06 <tumak> well, my argument is purely economical one - why do inefficient p2p cloud when you can have much more efficient centralized one? :)
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 850 2013-06-09 15:09:27 <realazthat> tumak: well the market would adjust for that
 851 2013-06-09 15:09:56 <realazthat> obviously, you put work on on workcoin network for cheaper than market price at first
 852 2013-06-09 15:10:01 <realazthat> and see if anyone will do it
 853 2013-06-09 15:10:13 <realazthat> people will do it for the same reason they mine
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 855 2013-06-09 15:10:31 <realazthat> for security of network, for chance to win lottery, and ofc the coin you post as reward for work
 856 2013-06-09 15:11:58 <tumak> realazthat: well, there are initial implementations
 857 2013-06-09 15:12:32 <tumak> i'd certainly start with monte carlo as that could be implemented with T*2, which is actually super efficient to arbitrary turing machines of SCIP which need T*1000 or so to be secure
 858 2013-06-09 15:12:43 <tumak> (i presume you know about https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3qaT-ZL6aeKOHNEQWdpZEtRYWc/edit?pli=1 )
 859 2013-06-09 15:13:28 <realazthat> I do not; its loading though
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 861 2013-06-09 15:13:58 <tumak> here is forum thread about it - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=64421.0
 862 2013-06-09 15:14:56 <tumak> problem is that it is based on traditional POW, but if some higher SCIP theory could be applied to it, it could indeed match traditional compute-for-rent providers
 863 2013-06-09 15:15:22 <nsh> "The major major weakness I see at the moment is that the computational model of embarassingly parallel Monte Carlo calculations is rather exotic, and not worth the trouble for most people to adopt it."
 864 2013-06-09 15:15:36 <tumak> depends
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 869 2013-06-09 15:16:22 <tumak> nsh: password bruteforcing is embarassingly parallel monte carlo simulation :)
 870 2013-06-09 15:16:29 * nsh nods
 871 2013-06-09 15:16:55 <nsh> i quoted from dubiety :)
 872 2013-06-09 15:16:55 <tumak> so as long you can make people use nothing-up-my-sleeve nonces for pw attempts
 873 2013-06-09 15:17:06 <nsh> right
 874 2013-06-09 15:17:15 <realazthat> mmm yes tumak, it looks like similar issues for nooshare apply to my idea as well
 875 2013-06-09 15:17:22 <realazthat> like he discusses a follow up race
 876 2013-06-09 15:17:30 <tumak> realazthat: yep
 877 2013-06-09 15:17:34 <realazthat> to report all the (best) useful work
 878 2013-06-09 15:17:41 <realazthat> I am trying to be more general
 879 2013-06-09 15:17:45 <realazthat> but same idea
 880 2013-06-09 15:17:54 <realazthat> I want it *all* to be reported
 881 2013-06-09 15:17:58 <tumak> i need to dive into this PCP stuff, this problem is indeed super hard, once again thanks for pointing me at that excellent talk nsh
 882 2013-06-09 15:18:01 <realazthat> and not just monto carlo to be run
 883 2013-06-09 15:18:09 <nsh> tumak, np
 884 2013-06-09 15:18:09 <tumak> realazthat: minimum viable prototype :)
 885 2013-06-09 15:18:14 <tumak> monte carlo is just start
 886 2013-06-09 15:18:23 <tumak> you can do provably-computed turing machine too
 887 2013-06-09 15:18:31 <nsh> Luke-Jr pointed me at it yesterday :)
 888 2013-06-09 15:18:42 <tumak> it will be just 0.1% efficient, instead of 50%
 889 2013-06-09 15:18:50 <realazthat> yeah hehe Luke-Jr is pessemistic
 890 2013-06-09 15:19:24 <realazthat> tumak: would be nice if you get 100% efficiency :D
 891 2013-06-09 15:19:29 <realazthat> with all results reported
 892 2013-06-09 15:19:33 <realazthat> for more general problems
 893 2013-06-09 15:19:34 <tumak> i say forget turing machines
 894 2013-06-09 15:19:49 <nsh> done.
 895 2013-06-09 15:19:50 <tumak> and make it huge random neuron firing NN
 896 2013-06-09 15:19:54 <realazthat> haha
 897 2013-06-09 15:19:56 <nsh> lolol
 898 2013-06-09 15:20:02 <realazthat> its alive!
 899 2013-06-09 15:20:07 <realazthat> thats a pretty good idea :P
 900 2013-06-09 15:20:17 <tumak> sure, computing on NN is still 0.1% compared to turing machine
 901 2013-06-09 15:20:17 <realazthat> make bitcoin the first true AGI
 902 2013-06-09 15:20:23 <nsh> actually, i've seriously considered that prospect that we are creating ephemeral life by hashing for bitcoin
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 904 2013-06-09 15:20:28 <tumak> but then, you use NN for other things than running software :)
 905 2013-06-09 15:20:51 <nsh> if you've read Greg Egan's Permutation City it's almost conceivable :)
 906 2013-06-09 15:20:53 <realazthat> Doctor on the holodeck
 907 2013-06-09 15:22:00 <realazthat> :/
 908 2013-06-09 15:22:28 <tumak> needless to say, AI research is nowhere near making their stuff POW-computable :(
 909 2013-06-09 15:22:34 <realazthat> hehe
 910 2013-06-09 15:22:50 <realazthat> well maybe with SCIP, you can adapt it
 911 2013-06-09 15:23:28 <realazthat> a huge distributed NN, with integrity held together by SCIP, and incentive to run it because of the coin lottery
 912 2013-06-09 15:23:31 <tumak> traditional nns need massively shared state which is hard
 913 2013-06-09 15:23:35 <realazthat> a nice fantasy
 914 2013-06-09 15:23:37 <tumak> so you need some entirely new paradigm :(
 915 2013-06-09 15:23:38 <realazthat> ah
 916 2013-06-09 15:23:46 <realazthat> yeah it would need something almost entirely distributed
 917 2013-06-09 15:23:47 <nsh> "As discussed, our contribution lies in obtaining the aforementioned efficiency properties in the prover and verifier algorithms. In order to obtain them, we show how to suitably leverage computational properties of linearized polynomials [32, Section 2.5] in finite field extensions of F2 [8] and additive-FFT methods [34]."
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 919 2013-06-09 15:24:01 <nsh> i think that's where my prospects of following the maths is are going to hit a big wall
 920 2013-06-09 15:24:17 <tumak> nsh: nah
 921 2013-06-09 15:24:21 <realazthat> lol
 922 2013-06-09 15:24:25 <tumak> math guys just like to talk their mumbo jambo
 923 2013-06-09 15:24:29 <tumak> but in the end its just fancy words
 924 2013-06-09 15:24:32 jouke_ has joined
 925 2013-06-09 15:24:51 <nsh> aye, i suppose it's all grokable in pseudocode
 926 2013-06-09 15:25:11 <realazthat> I am not sure if he is saying he is going to use FFT for the algorithm, or he is going to run FFT as the program , and show its efficiency
 927 2013-06-09 15:25:13 <tumak> indeed, once there is code available it becomes accessible to regular (programmer with cs/math background) folk
 928 2013-06-09 15:25:22 * nsh nods
 929 2013-06-09 15:28:14 patcon has joined
 930 2013-06-09 15:28:30 <realazthat> yep, I itching for some code :D
 931 2013-06-09 15:28:34 jaequery has joined
 932 2013-06-09 15:28:41 <realazthat> the first release is supposed to be pretty bad complexity
 933 2013-06-09 15:28:51 <realazthat> called "stage 1" in the presentation
 934 2013-06-09 15:28:59 <realazthat> but it is something to play with :D
 935 2013-06-09 15:30:10 <rdponticelli> join #bitcoin-bra
 936 2013-06-09 15:31:06 <rdponticelli> :p
 937 2013-06-09 15:31:32 <sipa> is that supposed to be an acronym?
 938 2013-06-09 15:32:18 <rdponticelli> The bra?
 939 2013-06-09 15:32:26 <sipa> yes
 940 2013-06-09 15:32:43 <rdponticelli> No, it's from Brazil
 941 2013-06-09 15:32:48 <sipa> ah
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 961 2013-06-09 16:09:31 <ne0futur> could anyone explain why https://blockchain.info/tx/3acf12305960387d6a8c9817885163a2f7e7b776d9159d96f7fecb3a0218fb17
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 963 2013-06-09 16:09:44 <ne0futur> is still unconfirmed after 10 hours ?
 964 2013-06-09 16:10:18 <ne0futur> ( 8 btc + 0.0005 fee )
 965 2013-06-09 16:10:33 <michagogo> Accurate, but useless answer: because it hasn't made its way into a block yet
 966 2013-06-09 16:10:47 <Scrat> ne0futur: bad propagation
 967 2013-06-09 16:11:01 <Scrat> I can't see it on my clients and I bet most miners don't have it
 968 2013-06-09 16:11:56 <michagogo> Scrat: If you `getrawtransaction 3acf12305960387d6a8c9817885163a2f7e7b776d9159d96f7fecb3a0218fb17` and pastebin the result I'll rebroadcast it for you
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 970 2013-06-09 16:12:21 <Scrat> michagogo: that's the problem, I can't see it (txindex is 1)
 971 2013-06-09 16:12:25 <Scrat> tried it on 3 bitcoinds
 972 2013-06-09 16:12:29 hneio is now known as nimdAHK
 973 2013-06-09 16:12:36 <Scrat> michagogo: and it's not mine
 974 2013-06-09 16:12:38 <michagogo> Scrat: Sorry, I meant ne0futur
 975 2013-06-09 16:12:45 <michagogo> ne0futur: If you `getrawtransaction 3acf12305960387d6a8c9817885163a2f7e7b776d9159d96f7fecb3a0218fb17` and pastebin the result I'll rebroadcast it for you
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1001 2013-06-09 16:47:40 <ne0futur> michagogo: full tx on http://xena.ww7.be/tx.txt
1002 2013-06-09 16:47:47 <ne0futur> michagogo: too long to paste here
1003 2013-06-09 16:48:02 <ne0futur> ( tx from http://xena.ww7.be/tx.txt
1004 2013-06-09 16:48:16 <ne0futur> oups from https://data.mtgox.com/api/0/bitcoin_tx.php
1005 2013-06-09 16:48:39 <ne0futur> but wehy this "bad propagation" can happen ?
1006 2013-06-09 16:48:54 <michagogo> ne0futur: Of course it's too long to paste here
1007 2013-06-09 16:49:00 <ne0futur> it looks like a big bitcoin bug
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1011 2013-06-09 16:52:12 <michagogo> ne0futur: Do you have access to that in hex?
1012 2013-06-09 16:53:36 <ne0futur> $tx_hex = bin2hex(base64_decode($tx1));
1013 2013-06-09 16:53:39 <ne0futur> thts it ?
1014 2013-06-09 16:53:43 <ne0futur> i can get it
1015 2013-06-09 16:55:23 <ne0futur> michagogo: http://xena.ww7.be/tx_hex.txt
1016 2013-06-09 16:55:27 <ne0futur> if I made no error
1017 2013-06-09 16:55:42 <michagogo> ne0futur: Looks right
1018 2013-06-09 16:55:54 <nsh> if the tx was sent from gox... aren't goxes nodes connected to hundreds of others?
1019 2013-06-09 16:56:08 <nsh> does seem strange the tx would propagate so badly from a pretty central origin
1020 2013-06-09 16:56:21 <michagogo> Hmm.
1021 2013-06-09 16:56:30 <nsh> Luke-Jr, can you try broadcasting that tx too?
1022 2013-06-09 16:56:32 <michagogo> I'm getting "TX rejected (code -22)"
1023 2013-06-09 16:56:41 <ne0futur> once I havve that i can just use sendrawtransaction <hex string> ?
1024 2013-06-09 16:56:53 <michagogo> ne0futur: Should be able to, yes
1025 2013-06-09 16:57:16 <ne0futur> nsh: i rebroadcasted it using http://blockchain.info/pushtx
1026 2013-06-09 16:57:28 <ne0futur> it was not on the blockchain after 2 hours
1027 2013-06-09 16:57:37 <nsh> and no complaints from bc.i ?
1028 2013-06-09 16:58:00 <michagogo> I wish bitcoin[d|-qt] were more verbose about why the TX was rejected...
1029 2013-06-09 16:58:17 brwyatt is now known as Away!~brwyatt@brwyatt.net|brwyatt
1030 2013-06-09 16:58:47 <ne0futur> error: {"code":-22,"message":"TX rejected"}
1031 2013-06-09 16:58:54 <ne0futur> if I use sendrawtransaction <hex string>
1032 2013-06-09 16:59:02 <ne0futur> michagogo: ah you too
1033 2013-06-09 16:59:15 <nsh> may be this: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2512
1034 2013-06-09 16:59:39 <michagogo> nsh: Not already known, no
1035 2013-06-09 16:59:48 <nsh> k
1036 2013-06-09 16:59:52 <ne0futur> nsh: well they provide a pushtx tool . . . why complain ? i dont abuse it
1037 2013-06-09 17:00:11 <nsh> no, i mean it didn't complain that the TX was rejected, sorry
1038 2013-06-09 17:00:53 <michagogo> ne0futur: He means, bc.i didn't return an error
1039 2013-06-09 17:01:15 <michagogo> Actually, bc.i's pushtx *does* tell you why a TX gets rejected
1040 2013-06-09 17:01:20 <michagogo> (if it does, which apparently it didn't)
1041 2013-06-09 17:01:26 <ne0futur> nowit says Error Pushing. Transaction already exists
1042 2013-06-09 17:01:40 <michagogo> Right.
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1044 2013-06-09 17:01:56 <ne0futur> but the fist time it worked, and the tx appeared on the blockchain
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1046 2013-06-09 17:02:55 <michagogo> ne0futur: It appeared on blockchain.info
1047 2013-06-09 17:03:00 <michagogo> Not "the blockchain".
1048 2013-06-09 17:03:11 <michagogo> If it had appeared on the blockchain, it would be confirmed.
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1050 2013-06-09 17:12:53 <ne0futur> so what now ?
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1052 2013-06-09 17:14:07 <michagogo> Nothing to do, unless you can figure out what might be causing the transaction to be rejected
1053 2013-06-09 17:14:16 <michagogo> (or someone else shows up who can)
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1056 2013-06-09 17:16:09 <nsh> !BATSIGNAL
1057 2013-06-09 17:16:09 <gribble> Error: "BATSIGNAL" is not a valid command.
1058 2013-06-09 17:16:27 <nsh> should be a command
1059 2013-06-09 17:16:32 <michagogo> Oops.
1060 2013-06-09 17:16:40 <nsh> is there a post on bitcointalk about this tx propagation issue yet?
1061 2013-06-09 17:16:45 <michagogo> Is starting the client with -reindex in any way irreversible?
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1063 2013-06-09 17:17:33 <nsh> dunno, guessing not too safely reversible
1064 2013-06-09 17:17:46 <nsh> cancelable even
1065 2013-06-09 17:17:54 <tumak> i guess we're all spoiled by https://blockchain.info/pushtx
1066 2013-06-09 17:17:55 <michagogo> s/ir//
1067 2013-06-09 17:18:16 <michagogo> nsh: Okay, just checked the log file
1068 2013-06-09 17:18:32 <michagogo> 2013-06-09 16:51:28 Wiping LevelDB in C:\Users\Micha\AppData\Roaming\Bitcoin\blocks\index
1069 2013-06-09 17:18:32 <michagogo> 2013-06-09 16:51:28 Wiping LevelDB in C:\Users\Micha\AppData\Roaming\Bitcoin\chainstate
1070 2013-06-09 17:18:34 <michagogo> So... Yeah.
1071 2013-06-09 17:19:12 <nsh> could be a bit more oops-resistant
1072 2013-06-09 17:22:18 <ne0futur> yup for now my conclusion is "stop using https://blockchain.info/pushtx" and rebroadcasting from my own bitcoind with bitcoind sendrawtransaction
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1074 2013-06-09 17:24:02 <ne0futur> tumak: yup
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1081 2013-06-09 17:37:51 * Luke-Jr wonders how he got on a who-to-ask-for-help-surviving-someone-51%ing-my-scamcoin PM list.
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1083 2013-06-09 17:41:55 <Scrat> nsh: how is that a bitcoin bug? it is the responsibility of the sender to retransmit a TX if the initial propagation was bad
1084 2013-06-09 17:42:22 <Scrat> which is the case here since gox are using their own implementation (correct me if I'm wrong here ne0futur)
1085 2013-06-09 17:42:49 <nsh> i don't think it's a bug, necessarily. i think it's strange that the initial propagation was bad to begin with
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1087 2013-06-09 17:43:06 <nsh> where the responsibility lies depends on what actually happened
1088 2013-06-09 17:43:28 <Scrat> let's say you're unlucky and you send it to 2 nodes who then go offline
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1090 2013-06-09 17:47:34 <mhanne> fwiw, i tried to relay it to one node, and it downloaded it, but i didn't get any invs about it from the other peers afterwards
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1156 2013-06-09 19:48:03 <malexmedia> hey all! can anybody tell me if there's a signal that causes bitcoind to reload bitcoin.conf?
1157 2013-06-09 19:48:09 <malexmedia> re-parse that is
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1159 2013-06-09 19:50:34 <nsh> malexmedia, restart?
1160 2013-06-09 19:50:51 <malexmedia> yeah, i guess that's not too awful
1161 2013-06-09 19:50:58 <malexmedia> i was hoping to avoid any RPC downtime
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1168 2013-06-09 19:52:31 <malexmedia> i see the matter was briefly discussed here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/917
1169 2013-06-09 19:52:54 <malexmedia> the log file thing is good, i was just wondering if the config reload was ever implemented
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1173 2013-06-09 19:54:46 <Subo1978> re-parse would be cool
1174 2013-06-09 19:56:11 <nsh> logfile reopen is merged by the looks of it
1175 2013-06-09 19:56:22 <nsh> but no conf reparse in signal handling or RPC that i can see
1176 2013-06-09 19:56:33 <malexmedia> nsh: i just tested it; log file reopening is working great for me
1177 2013-06-09 19:56:45 * nsh nods
1178 2013-06-09 19:56:58 <nsh> there could be nontrivial complications with reparsing the configuration when running
1179 2013-06-09 19:57:04 <nsh> due to how bootstrapping works
1180 2013-06-09 19:57:22 <nsh> (at a guess)
1181 2013-06-09 19:57:35 <malexmedia> i want to be able to specify a new externalip during runtime without losing RPC
1182 2013-06-09 19:58:45 <nsh> what might be lost if you have RPC downtime?
1183 2013-06-09 19:58:54 <malexmedia> it wouldn't prevent bitcoind from having to re-establish peer connections, but it would be nice
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1185 2013-06-09 19:59:12 <malexmedia> eh, it might be more academic / theoretical than practical
1186 2013-06-09 19:59:15 <nsh> as a hack you could mitm the RPC with a FIFO or something
1187 2013-06-09 19:59:29 <nsh> then any calls would be cached until bitcoind reads again
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1190 2013-06-09 19:59:46 <malexmedia> well, i want to be able to actually respond sanely to certain types of requests during theoretical downtime
1191 2013-06-09 19:59:59 <malexmedia> like a getnewaddress request, for example
1192 2013-06-09 20:00:03 <malexmedia> should be totally offline
1193 2013-06-09 20:00:21 <malexmedia> even if i just dropped 100% of my peer connections
1194 2013-06-09 20:00:26 * nsh nods
1195 2013-06-09 20:00:26 <malexmedia> or getbalance
1196 2013-06-09 20:00:27 <malexmedia> etc.
1197 2013-06-09 20:00:52 <nsh> probably ideally you want a more modular suite
1198 2013-06-09 20:01:13 <shesek> Hey all. I'm trying to create a spending transaction from a multisig address with bitcoind's createrawtransaction, and end up with a transaction with no scriptSig. Pasted to http://pastie.org/8027452. Any idea what I'm doing wrong?
1199 2013-06-09 20:01:14 <malexmedia> boo... what i want is the satoshi implementation to be perfect for my every wish and desire ;)
1200 2013-06-09 20:04:58 <malexmedia> what is db.log? why does it never seem to contain anything?
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1206 2013-06-09 20:12:10 <nsh> malexmedia, was used by BDB but now defunct as LevelDB has replaced BDB
1207 2013-06-09 20:12:17 <nsh> afaik
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1209 2013-06-09 20:13:02 <nsh> or maybe not. take that with a pinch of salt
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1215 2013-06-09 20:18:17 <rdponticelli> nsh: The wallet still uses bdb
1216 2013-06-09 20:18:37 <nsh> ah
1217 2013-06-09 20:18:45 <rdponticelli> Yes, db.log is the log of bdb
1218 2013-06-09 20:19:12 <rdponticelli> Usually it contains errors while something fails on bdb side
1219 2013-06-09 20:19:23 <rdponticelli> s/while/when/
1220 2013-06-09 20:19:37 <nsh> are there plans to switch the wallet to leveldb too?
1221 2013-06-09 20:19:57 <rdponticelli> It has been talked a lot
1222 2013-06-09 20:20:21 <rdponticelli> But I'm unsure if somebody is still working on that
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1224 2013-06-09 20:20:54 <nsh> seems it would simplify maintenance
1225 2013-06-09 20:21:11 <rdponticelli> Yeah, the idea is some append only format
1226 2013-06-09 20:21:30 <nsh> "For wallets, LevelDB would be overkill and a burden. LevelDB uses an entire directory per database (instead of a single file), and wallets are effectively a simple key-value store that's loaded entirely in memory anyway. I assume wallet.dat will be replaced by some simple but solid hand-rolled format."
1227 2013-06-09 20:21:32 <nsh> - http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/4809/what-technology-will-supersede-the-berkleydb-format-what-are-the-current-scalab
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1230 2013-06-09 20:26:13 <matjeh> why not sqlite?
1231 2013-06-09 20:26:20 <matjeh> bdb is horrible
1232 2013-06-09 20:28:56 <rdponticelli> iirc, sipa was working on a custom format
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1239 2013-06-09 20:31:55 <gmaxwell> sqlite is horrible too, at least for the sorts of things we need for the wallet.
1240 2013-06-09 20:33:02 peetaur2 has joined
1241 2013-06-09 20:34:28 <nsh> perl and flatfiles, as god intended
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1243 2013-06-09 20:34:58 <nsh> gmaxwell, would appreciate your thoughts on the possibilities of SICP in general and for bitcoin in particular?
1244 2013-06-09 20:35:07 <nsh> also if you're able to synopsise exactly how it's not magic, that'd be great
1245 2013-06-09 20:36:07 <gmaxwell> nsh: I can generally explain it, yes... but I don't understand it well enough to explain it compactly. You can go read their papers on it.
1246 2013-06-09 20:36:27 <nsh> i started..
1247 2013-06-09 20:36:58 <gmaxwell> And like zerocoin there are basic computational hurdles that will prevent the direct usage of it with bitcoin in the near term.
1248 2013-06-09 20:37:18 <nsh> right
1249 2013-06-09 20:37:36 <nsh> the promises in the conference talk were quite ambitious
1250 2013-06-09 20:38:03 <nsh> a litenode being able to verify the entire blockchain was validated would certainly do a lot for scalability
1251 2013-06-09 20:38:11 <gmaxwell> I think the most interesting near term usages w/ bitcoin will be things like the zero-knowldge payments I described, because they only require the interested parties to use the system.
1252 2013-06-09 20:39:04 copumpkin has joined
1253 2013-06-09 20:39:27 <nsh> described here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/why_hash_locked ?
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1280 2013-06-09 21:22:36 <TheUni> sipa: around?
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1283 2013-06-09 21:25:01 <shesek> I think I found what's causing my transaction to be invalid
1284 2013-06-09 21:25:05 <shesek> https://github.com/bitcoinjs/bitcoinjs-lib/blob/master/src/util.js#L149
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1286 2013-06-09 21:25:35 <shesek> shouldn't that be reversed for little endian?
1287 2013-06-09 21:25:50 <shesek> the last two bytes I mean
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1289 2013-06-09 21:27:12 <sipa> shesek: indeed!
1290 2013-06-09 21:27:16 <sipa> TheUni: yes
1291 2013-06-09 21:27:31 <TheUni> sipa: nevermind, figured it out
1292 2013-06-09 21:27:51 <sipa> TheUni: in case you need a gitian build, i must disappoint you: i tried doing a build yesterday, and my laptop rebooted (likely because of overheating)
1293 2013-06-09 21:28:05 <TheUni> heh, great
1294 2013-06-09 21:28:27 <TheUni> sipa: it's ok though. i'm rigging up a test that uses the gitian scripts, so i can essentially run a simulation
1295 2013-06-09 21:28:34 <TheUni> so if it passes, it should pass in a real instance too
1296 2013-06-09 21:28:38 <shesek> sipa, any idea if its just the unsigned shorts that's missing a reverse, or the rest of them too?
1297 2013-06-09 21:28:39 <sipa> cool
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1299 2013-06-09 21:29:05 <sipa> shesek: not without knowing what Crypto.util.wordsToBytes does
1300 2013-06-09 21:29:31 <Luke-Jr> at least the last one is wrong
1301 2013-06-09 21:29:36 <Luke-Jr> shesek: ^
1302 2013-06-09 21:29:47 <shesek> the unsigned long long?
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1304 2013-06-09 21:29:50 <sipa> oh yes, it is
1305 2013-06-09 21:30:05 <sipa> but the the internal order of the 4 per-word bytes may be right or wrong still
1306 2013-06-09 21:30:14 <sipa> depending on what that library function does
1307 2013-06-09 21:30:23 <Luke-Jr> 		for (var bytes = [], b = 0; b < words.length * 32; b += 8)
1308 2013-06-09 21:30:25 <Luke-Jr> 			bytes.push((words[b >>> 5] >>> (24 - b % 32)) & 0xFF);
1309 2013-06-09 21:30:39 <Luke-Jr> unrolled would be so much more readable XD
1310 2013-06-09 21:30:54 <sipa> that smells like big endian
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1312 2013-06-09 21:31:41 <Luke-Jr> stuff like that makes me never 100% sure until I run it :x
1313 2013-06-09 21:32:07 <sipa> at b=0, the first word is shifted 24 bits, and then 8 bits taken from it
1314 2013-06-09 21:32:15 <sipa> i.e., its highest bits are outputted first
1315 2013-06-09 21:32:33 <shesek> how does this library even works at all with that? works only when int and chars are used?
1316 2013-06-09 21:32:40 <sipa> perhaps
1317 2013-06-09 21:32:58 <sipa> or that part is just not used
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1319 2013-06-09 21:33:26 <shesek> its used to serialize transactions
1320 2013-06-09 21:33:53 <shesek> but my multiSig is rather long because I'm using p2sh/multisig in the inputs
1321 2013-06-09 21:34:15 <shesek> regular transaction's length are probably always < 0xfd, which causes it to usually work
1322 2013-06-09 21:34:32 <Luke-Jr> they are? O.o
1323 2013-06-09 21:34:40 <Luke-Jr> oh, the script sizes maybe
1324 2013-06-09 21:34:47 <shesek> yeh, I meant the script size
1325 2013-06-09 21:34:53 <shesek> so should I reverse the unsigned long long too?
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1327 2013-06-09 21:35:52 <Luke-Jr> it's all right, but it needs to be wrong ☺
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1330 2013-06-09 21:38:55 <shesek> and... it still doesn't work :(
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1333 2013-06-09 21:40:58 <skinnkavaj> why are blocks found so fast?
1334 2013-06-09 21:41:05 <skinnkavaj> shouldn't it be 10 minutes between?
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1338 2013-06-09 21:42:15 <sipa> ;;tslb
1339 2013-06-09 21:42:17 <gribble> Time since last block: 2 minutes and 54 seconds
1340 2013-06-09 21:42:28 <Luke-Jr> skinnkavaj: on average
1341 2013-06-09 21:42:40 <sipa> skinnkavaj: increasing hashrate causes the average to be below 10 minutes
1342 2013-06-09 21:42:51 <sipa> skinnkavaj: and random variantion
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1354 2013-06-09 22:04:32 <shesek> are signatures deterministic?
1355 2013-06-09 22:04:38 <BlueMatt> no
1356 2013-06-09 22:04:53 <shesek> the same transaction hash signed by the same key can produce different signatures?
1357 2013-06-09 22:05:09 <michagogo> Yep
1358 2013-06-09 22:05:31 <michagogo> (I only know this because of the bottom of brainwallet.org/#tx)
1359 2013-06-09 22:05:44 <shesek> cool, thanks.
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1366 2013-06-09 22:14:29 <shesek> so reversing the length bytes did get bitcoind's decoderawtransaction to parse it, but it seems like the signature is not correct (signing it with another key from the 2-of-3 results in complete:false)
1367 2013-06-09 22:14:56 <shesek> tho bitcoinjs's signature does work for regular transactions
1368 2013-06-09 22:15:03 <TheUni> sipa: in the gitian descriptors, do you know where MAKEOPTS comes from?
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1388 2013-06-09 22:35:14 <sipa> TheUni: the command-line, i guess?
1389 2013-06-09 22:35:20 <sipa> TheUni: when invoking gitian-build
1390 2013-06-09 22:35:47 <TheUni> sipa: ok, it looked like it was something that was toolchain related at first, but i now suspect it's just optional stuff
1391 2013-06-09 22:35:54 <TheUni> eg -jX
1392 2013-06-09 22:36:09 <sipa> yeah, those are set when invoking gitian-build
1393 2013-06-09 22:36:28 <TheUni> ok, thanks
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1419 2013-06-09 23:27:21 <skinnkavaj> sipa
1420 2013-06-09 23:28:06 <skinnkavaj> if i transfer to my blockchain.info account and it shows up instant as uncofirmed transaction
1421 2013-06-09 23:28:29 <skinnkavaj> can i then send it right away? or di need to wait for confirmations?
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1436 2013-06-09 23:56:18 <michagogo> skinnkavaj: If it shows up as unconfirmed, AFAIK bc.i will let you send it, yes
1437 2013-06-09 23:56:39 <tumak> only bitcoinqt-dev is being silly and insists on confirms :)
1438 2013-06-09 23:56:48 <tumak> s/-dev//
1439 2013-06-09 23:56:52 <michagogo> You'll simply need to wait for the first transaction to confirm before the second one can. Also, questions like this one are better suited for #bitcoin-dev
1440 2013-06-09 23:57:00 <michagogo> erm, I mean #bitcoin
1441 2013-06-09 23:57:15 <tumak> #bitcoin is scary place
1442 2013-06-09 23:57:37 <tumak> so many newbies wanting to replace blockchain with dht and pow with provably computable tpms
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