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  14 2013-06-11 00:15:26 <Neil> Ignoring the 2 dozen+ deliberate reorgs; what's the largest reorg in terms of numbers of blocks ever seen?  Have we seen 3 or even 2 ever?
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  20 2013-06-11 00:19:35 <gmaxwell> Neil: uh. "2 dozen+ deliberate reorgs" what the heck are you talking about?
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  22 2013-06-11 00:20:49 <gmaxwell> oh! you mean the "deliberate reorgs of two dozen+ blocks"!
  23 2013-06-11 00:21:07 <gmaxwell> Reorgs of two deep are not terribly uncommon.
  24 2013-06-11 00:21:40 <gmaxwell> And I /believe/ there has been a no-incident three deep reorg.
  25 2013-06-11 00:22:30 <gmaxwell> Neil: if you accept some latency model for the network it's not hard to come up with estimates of how often reorgs of some depth or another should happen by chance.
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  29 2013-06-11 00:25:56 <gmaxwell> or actually you mean the two  deliberate reorgs of a dozen+ blocks. One sentence, three parsings. English is awesome.
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  32 2013-06-11 00:34:09 <Neil> No the two reorgs, of a dozen blocks each.  Sorry for the unclear wording.
  33 2013-06-11 00:34:36 <Neil> Cool, I've never seen a 2-reorg.  Thanks.
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  48 2013-06-11 00:42:30 <scroy> so. #bitcoin is full of useless philistines. i want to preserve as much privacy as possible while conducting bitcoin transactions
  49 2013-06-11 00:42:59 bencsat is now known as JJDalton
  50 2013-06-11 00:43:32 <ne0futur> ;;ident scroy
  51 2013-06-11 00:43:32 <gribble> Nick 'scroy', with hostmask 'scroy!~Roy@pool-173-79-153-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net', is not identified.
  52 2013-06-11 00:43:38 <scroy> fuck
  53 2013-06-11 00:43:43 <ne0futur> begin with asking for a cloak
  54 2013-06-11 00:43:49 <JJDalton> yo
  55 2013-06-11 00:43:52 <scroy> i had a cloak... what happened
  56 2013-06-11 00:44:02 <ne0futur> ;;events pool-173-79-153-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net
  57 2013-06-11 00:44:03 <gribble> http://otc.armed.us/otc/?pool-173-79-153-134.washdc.fios.verizon.net&&&&&
  58 2013-06-11 00:44:21 <ne0futur>  /query nickserv help identify
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  68 2013-06-11 01:01:21 <Luke-Jr> scroy: also, this is -dev; careful usage is not really a development issue
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  70 2013-06-11 01:08:23 <CodeShark> usage is not really a dev issue - but usability is
  71 2013-06-11 01:08:45 <Zoop_> http://www.macrumors.com/2013/06/10/apple-offers-developers-a-closer-look-at-the-new-mac-pro/
  72 2013-06-11 01:08:47 <Zoop_> wut?
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  74 2013-06-11 01:09:35 <lianj> Zoop_: shiny trashcan
  75 2013-06-11 01:10:15 <CodeShark> surely it's a joke, yes?
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 147 2013-06-11 04:17:35 <warren> hmm, git blame is good to know when a line was added, but how do you easily determine when a line was removed?  Sorry, I can't remember.
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 150 2013-06-11 04:19:10 <toffoo> hey anyone here running the bitcoin-qt 0.8.2 mac client?
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 169 2013-06-11 04:39:59 <etotheipi_> sipa: question about LevelDB... I was under the impression that if I have an iterator, and then change the data in its path (single-threaded), it will read the updated data when it reaches it
 170 2013-06-11 04:40:19 <etotheipi_> I assumed that I needed to create a snapshot if I wanted a consistent read-view of the DB
 171 2013-06-11 04:40:39 <etotheipi_> but I just read something that suggests otherwise
 172 2013-06-11 04:42:23 <etotheipi_> (basically suggesting that iterators do essentially operate on snapshots, perhaps making/maintaining one while the iterator is active)
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 181 2013-06-11 04:51:11 <nospinzy> hey
 182 2013-06-11 04:51:35 <nospinzy> what way do you think this person sent this transaction
 183 2013-06-11 04:51:35 <nospinzy> http://blockchain.info/tx/f2ba5bf8523437761000bb691bc0a7356c27312678c19d3b05b5d7a7bebe2368
 184 2013-06-11 04:53:56 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
 185 2013-06-11 04:54:21 <gmaxwell> nospinzy: thats not really ontopic for this channel. you might want to try another one.
 186 2013-06-11 04:55:58 mrkent has joined
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 188 2013-06-11 05:01:39 <warren> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees  is that Settings table still up to date?
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 190 2013-06-11 05:02:28 <sipa> etotheipi_: i've never done concurrent updates while iteratin
 191 2013-06-11 05:02:53 <etotheipi_> sipa: okay
 192 2013-06-11 05:03:26 <etotheipi_>  I had made an assumption that I suddenly realized may not be true
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 194 2013-06-11 05:03:48 <etotheipi_> I guess I'll just have to play with it
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 210 2013-06-11 05:21:36 <phantomcircuit> etotheipi_, in general modifying the underlying data should be assumed to invalidate an iterator... even if they claim otherwise ;)
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 232 2013-06-11 06:06:05 <TheUni> warren: if you didn't find it yet, git log -S
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 235 2013-06-11 06:06:53 <warren> TheUni: thanks
 236 2013-06-11 06:09:06 <TheUni> np
 237 2013-06-11 06:09:21 <warren> did you push a fix?
 238 2013-06-11 06:09:46 <TheUni> no, realized it didn't work completely
 239 2013-06-11 06:10:21 <warren> TheUni: my solution sucks, but works!
 240 2013-06-11 06:10:42 <TheUni> heh
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 262 2013-06-11 06:42:55 <warren> TheUni: good news is with my hack the build is deterministic
 263 2013-06-11 06:43:14 <warren> TheUni: please add $MAKEOPTS and commit it under my name?
 264 2013-06-11 06:43:23 <warren> TheUni: I can't send you pull requests for reasons I don't understand.
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 266 2013-06-11 06:43:52 <TheUni> warren: only thing i can come up with is that i'm a fork of the original..
 267 2013-06-11 06:44:00 <TheUni> there's nothing different about my repo otherwise
 268 2013-06-11 06:44:29 <warren> I pulled your branch into my tree, branched from it, uploaded to my repo and was unable to create a pull request
 269 2013-06-11 06:45:31 <TheUni> warren: what's your github user?
 270 2013-06-11 06:46:08 <TheUni> nm, it's at the top of my mailbox
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 276 2013-06-11 06:48:27 <TheUni> warren: yea, that's it, you'd have to clone mine
 277 2013-06-11 06:48:41 <warren> damn
 278 2013-06-11 06:48:41 <TheUni> github sees that it's 'forked from bitcoin', so that's the upstream choice it gives you
 279 2013-06-11 06:48:53 <TheUni> that's a bit.. odd
 280 2013-06-11 06:49:03 <warren> TheUni: It gives me 100 other person's bitcoin forks as options to send a pull request to, but not you.
 281 2013-06-11 06:49:17 <TheUni> hmm, sec
 282 2013-06-11 06:49:53 <TheUni> now?
 283 2013-06-11 06:49:59 <warren> errr
 284 2013-06-11 06:50:00 <warren> hold
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 287 2013-06-11 06:52:34 <warren> nope
 288 2013-06-11 06:52:58 <warren> "theuni" right?
 289 2013-06-11 06:53:03 <TheUni> yea
 290 2013-06-11 06:53:09 <warren> it isn't an option for base repo
 291 2013-06-11 06:53:22 <warren> wtogami / bitcoin
 292 2013-06-11 06:53:22 <warren> forked from bitcoin/bitcoin
 293 2013-06-11 06:53:44 <warren> TheUni: can you just add me as a remote and cherry-pick it into your tree?
 294 2013-06-11 06:53:50 <TheUni> sure
 295 2013-06-11 06:53:58 <warren> I assume you know the syntax
 296 2013-06-11 06:54:16 <warren> TheUni: pushed here: https://github.com/wtogami/bitcoin/tree/win32buildfix
 297 2013-06-11 06:54:19 <TheUni> yep
 298 2013-06-11 06:55:10 <TheUni> warren: i'm only going to c-p some of it though, ok with you? i'm solving the configure problem in another way
 299 2013-06-11 06:55:31 <TheUni> but the commit will be yours
 300 2013-06-11 06:57:11 <warren> ok
 301 2013-06-11 06:57:20 <warren> curious to see how you do it
 302 2013-06-11 06:57:35 <TheUni> warren: still not quite sure. i've struck out 3 ways now...
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 304 2013-06-11 06:58:09 <TheUni> seems the libfaketime devs made it hard to use systematically on purpose
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 307 2013-06-11 06:58:54 <warren> I narrowly attacked that one thing because it is the only thing stopping it.
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 313 2013-06-11 07:03:15 <TheUni> warren: seems it still wants to run sometimes after changing that, though?
 314 2013-06-11 07:03:39 <warren> TheUni: what wants to run?
 315 2013-06-11 07:03:43 <sipa> warren: you cannot do pull requests to two different repositories that are related
 316 2013-06-11 07:03:45 <warren> TheUni: it builds just fine every time for me
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 318 2013-06-11 07:03:54 <sipa> warren: github limitation
 319 2013-06-11 07:04:07 <warren> sipa: ok, what alternative do I do?
 320 2013-06-11 07:04:08 <TheUni> warren: it builds, but you don't see rerunning configure?
 321 2013-06-11 07:04:15 <sipa> warren: send a patch?
 322 2013-06-11 07:04:28 <warren> TheUni: looking at log
 323 2013-06-11 07:05:00 <warren> TheUni: you mean make runs configure within it
 324 2013-06-11 07:05:01 <TheUni> warren: no worries, i've got something that works now. was just curious to see if yours was still rerunning it
 325 2013-06-11 07:05:01 <warren> ?
 326 2013-06-11 07:05:05 <TheUni> yea
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 328 2013-06-11 07:06:05 <warren> TheUni: nope, not re-running during "make"
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 330 2013-06-11 07:06:33 <warren> TheUni: hmm, $MAKEOPTS didn't add any -j value, quite slow build
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 332 2013-06-11 07:08:24 <TheUni> warren: i'm not sure where else it'd be coming from
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 368 2013-06-11 08:07:34 <TheUni> warren: i'm headed to bed, will check backlog to see if you had a chance to give it a try
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 500 2013-06-11 08:35:01 <Anduckk> if you do sha256(A+B) = C and you know C + A, can you guess B somehow?
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 503 2013-06-11 08:35:10 <Anduckk> does it lower the security to know B
 504 2013-06-11 08:35:22 <tgs3> dave4925 needs a kick in the connection
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 510 2013-06-11 08:36:11 <sipa> Anduckk: if that is possible, SHA256 would be broken
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 514 2013-06-11 08:36:38 <tgs3> Anduckk: by trying every possible value of it
 515 2013-06-11 08:37:26 <Anduckk> yeh, thanks for answers
 516 2013-06-11 08:40:08 Subo1978_ is now known as Subo1978
 517 2013-06-11 08:41:29 Jc_Dev has joined
 518 2013-06-11 08:41:35 <mrkent> what's the best way to check if a X btc has been paid to address Y if the wallet is not on the server?
 519 2013-06-11 08:41:53 <Jc_Dev> what is the rough size of the bitcoin test blockchain?
 520 2013-06-11 08:43:00 nelisky has joined
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 522 2013-06-11 08:43:32 <Anduckk> mrkent: you can check it from blockchain.info or blockexplorer.com
 523 2013-06-11 08:43:41 <Anduckk> or with bitcoin-qt but its complicated
 524 2013-06-11 08:43:51 Jackneill has joined
 525 2013-06-11 08:44:10 <matjeh> Jc_Dev: 188MB here, 84118 blocks
 526 2013-06-11 08:44:29 <Anduckk> of course when checking from blockchain.info or blockexplorer.com you have to trust them to show correct info
 527 2013-06-11 08:44:40 <Anduckk> the hard way is to check it straight from the real blockchan via bitcoind
 528 2013-06-11 08:44:43 <mrkent> anduckk, can't I do it with bitcoind?
 529 2013-06-11 08:44:46 <Jc_Dev> matjeh: excellent thanks - and testnet3 genesis block is from Feb 2011 right?
 530 2013-06-11 08:44:46 <Anduckk> you can
 531 2013-06-11 08:44:50 <sipa> you can't
 532 2013-06-11 08:45:02 <sipa> well, not without iterating over all blocks and transactions
 533 2013-06-11 08:45:05 <Anduckk> yeah
 534 2013-06-11 08:45:07 <matjeh> testnet on blockexplorer.com is out of date
 535 2013-06-11 08:45:07 <sipa> which would take ~hours
 536 2013-06-11 08:45:09 <Anduckk> but its very complicated
 537 2013-06-11 08:45:15 <sipa> it's trivial, but slow
 538 2013-06-11 08:45:19 <matjeh> Jc_Dev: yeah
 539 2013-06-11 08:45:24 <Jc_Dev> k
 540 2013-06-11 08:45:25 <mrkent> How so Anduckk?
 541 2013-06-11 08:45:31 <Anduckk> mrkent: what sipa said
 542 2013-06-11 08:45:44 <sipa> mrkent: you really just don't want to do that
 543 2013-06-11 08:45:55 * Anduckk thinks its complicated task to check for a tx with bitcoind or local blockchain
 544 2013-06-11 08:46:06 <sipa> once we add support for watch-only addresses it will be easy
 545 2013-06-11 08:46:53 <mrkent> hum... How does blockexplorer/blockchain do it?
 546 2013-06-11 08:47:07 <sipa> by keeping a huge index
 547 2013-06-11 08:47:15 <sipa> of all addresses and all transactions affecting it
 548 2013-06-11 08:48:26 <mrkent> i see. Is watch only address high in the queue?
 549 2013-06-11 08:48:27 Maxvalor has quit ()
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 551 2013-06-11 08:49:05 <sipa> it may end up in 0.9
 552 2013-06-11 08:49:43 <Anduckk> also might be possible with armory, dunno
 553 2013-06-11 08:49:46 <tgs3> https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/580405_10200937018724134_1262619752_n.jpg
 554 2013-06-11 08:50:16 <matjeh> on a related note, how big is an abe/mysql db thesedays? last time i did an import a few months ago it was about 40GB
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 558 2013-06-11 08:56:45 <Jc_Dev> mrkent: fyi android app BitCare does watch-only wallets, it gets its info from block explorer
 559 2013-06-11 08:57:26 nomailing has joined
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 561 2013-06-11 09:00:01 <mrkent> blockchain no longer gives free api access?
 562 2013-06-11 09:00:54 <SomeoneWeird> mrkent, ?
 563 2013-06-11 09:02:07 <mrkent> Does blockchain.info have api for developers to use?
 564 2013-06-11 09:02:37 <SomeoneWeird> yes?
 565 2013-06-11 09:02:45 ThomasV has joined
 566 2013-06-11 09:06:48 <sipa> it's lovely to see how bitcoin allows trust-free management of money, and everyone trusts a single site (which has been down and even plain wrong in the past...)
 567 2013-06-11 09:08:25 <petertodd> sipa: incidentally, I was talking to the guy running the #bitcoin-otc tip bot, and turns out he's using blockchain.info and completely misunderstood my query about auditability, kinda scary
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 569 2013-06-11 09:14:04 <TD> sipa: lol
 570 2013-06-11 09:14:09 <mrkent> my purpose is just for testing only
 571 2013-06-11 09:14:10 <TD> sipa: yes
 572 2013-06-11 09:14:14 <TD> sipa: APIs!!
 573 2013-06-11 09:14:24 <TD> sipa: we haz none
 574 2013-06-11 09:14:28 <mrkent> sipa, although watch addresses would be nice
 575 2013-06-11 09:15:50 <mrkent> any python-wrapped bitcoin managers you recommend?
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 579 2013-06-11 09:17:32 <petertodd> mrkent: the Armory wallet of all things might be the closest to what you want that you can actually get right now
 580 2013-06-11 09:17:54 <petertodd> mrkent: IIRC the contrib/ directory in the repo has some scripts to work with it, although it's really ram intensive
 581 2013-06-11 09:19:01 <mrkent> petertodd, you mean for watch addresses?
 582 2013-06-11 09:19:22 <petertodd> mrkent: yeah, my understanding is it maintains a UTXO database
 583 2013-06-11 09:20:21 <sipa> petertodd: i thought it loaded the entire transaction history
 584 2013-06-11 09:20:29 <sipa> (but my info may be very old)
 585 2013-06-11 09:20:56 <petertodd> sipa: yeah, and I thought that as it does that it winds up with a UTXO database, but I've never actually looked
 586 2013-06-11 09:21:16 <petertodd> Anyway, point is it does have the code for watch-only in there... somewhere.
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 588 2013-06-11 09:24:30 <mrkent> Any US based devs wanna beta test my service? I can really use feedback. Will add 0.1 btc to your account to buy stuff from amazon.
 589 2013-06-11 09:25:15 <TD> http://www.ieee-security.org/TC/SP2013/papers/4977a080.pdf
 590 2013-06-11 09:26:28 <petertodd> sipa: Incidentally, still working on a mempool rewrite, and I realized that a simple greedy memoizing implementation of child-pays-for-parent is doable with O(log n) work to add a tx, and O(n) work to process a block - is this well know already?
 591 2013-06-11 09:26:59 <sipa> petertodd: that sounds very low
 592 2013-06-11 09:27:37 <petertodd> Basically, just store total unconfirmed fees and size for every tx, and as new tx's come in inherit that unconfirmed fees/size from the parent and put the tx into a sorted list of profit.
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 595 2013-06-11 09:28:01 <petertodd> It's greedy, because it fails on certain topologies, like one tx with a lot of children, but it works well in most cases and is really cheap.
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 597 2013-06-11 09:28:29 <petertodd> Adding non-greedy incremental updating should be doable too.
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 600 2013-06-11 09:30:31 <mrkent> TD interesting article
 601 2013-06-11 09:32:12 <mrkent> seems kinda impossible to prevent ddos attacks on hidden services
 602 2013-06-11 09:32:55 <petertodd> mrkent: it's quite possible if you add micropayments for the resources you consume
 603 2013-06-11 09:35:30 <mrkent> and how to track who paid?
 604 2013-06-11 09:36:41 <Jc_Dev> i have a public address and i'm trying to construct an ECKey in bitcoinj, but the constructor wants a byte[] - any idea what best way to convert the string to a byte[] is? no idea what encoding, etc...
 605 2013-06-11 09:36:55 <petertodd> you don't have too, just pay with a spendable token embedded in each layer of the onion packet
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 607 2013-06-11 09:37:19 <sipa> Jc_Dev: there's no way to convert an address into a public key
 608 2013-06-11 09:37:35 <sipa> (assuming that's what ECKey wants, i don't know BitcoinJ's API)
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 610 2013-06-11 09:40:51 <Jc_Dev> yeah that makes sense, address is a hash of public key i think? i have an address and i'm trying to get bitcoinj to grab the transactions for it, it seems to want me to make an ECKey, add it to a wallet, then have the wallet watch the blockchain - maybe it's just not possible.
 611 2013-06-11 09:42:02 <TD> mrkent: the real interesting result is that anyone can de-anonymize the silk road for about $11k
 612 2013-06-11 09:42:14 <TD> i would assume law enforcement would be very interested in that result
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 614 2013-06-11 09:43:24 <petertodd> if the silk road is smart that result will just uselessly lead law enforcement to virtual servers, not people
 615 2013-06-11 09:43:41 <petertodd> upps the game however
 616 2013-06-11 09:43:49 <mrkent> TD, can you explain how its de-anonymized?
 617 2013-06-11 09:43:55 <TD> read the paper
 618 2013-06-11 09:44:34 <TD> basically they manipulate the consensus and then do traffic analysis attacks
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 620 2013-06-11 09:45:17 <TD> petertodd: if it were useless, they wouldn't use tor. if they could access the silk road servers they could certainly obtain a lot of information about the operators.
 621 2013-06-11 09:45:43 <TD> they also measured the popularity of the silk road
 622 2013-06-11 09:45:50 <TD> looks like they get around 15,000 users per day
 623 2013-06-11 09:46:38 <petertodd> TD: virtual servers can be shutdown trivially, but they don't have to lead to actual operators, tor is what keeps them from being shut down
 624 2013-06-11 09:47:36 <TD> probably not all of the users (or even most of them) are using pgp, so i'd imagine you can bust a lot of dealers even if you couldn't find DPR
 625 2013-06-11 09:47:43 <petertodd> TD: but as I say, it upps the game into the realm of the sophisticated rather than making a silkroad site something anyone with a bit of tech knowledge can run, which makes it more likely that you'll need employees, and thus one will talk
 626 2013-06-11 09:47:50 <mrkent> where did u get $11k number?
 627 2013-06-11 09:47:56 <TD> mrkent: the paper! :)
 628 2013-06-11 09:48:27 <petertodd> TD: I've spoken to people who use silk road, amazingly PGP is actually very widely used there
 629 2013-06-11 09:48:54 <TD> yeah right. i don't believe that for one moment. i'm sure it *looks* like it's widely used. but this is like saying 2 factor auth is widely used on mt gox.
 630 2013-06-11 09:48:56 <petertodd> TD: It and buying VPN services are the only times I've ever heard of anyone outside the Bitcoin community using Bitcoins...
 631 2013-06-11 09:48:59 <TD> the only way you can really know, is by being the operator
 632 2013-06-11 09:49:33 <TD> mrkent: the interesting thing is the conclusion, really. you can just read the last paragraph. they propose some ways to reduce the efficiency of their attacks. but ultimately the current design of Tor hidden services is not able to reliably prevent de-anonymization.
 633 2013-06-11 09:49:39 <TD> it would require a significant redesign.
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 635 2013-06-11 09:50:26 <TD> to me that says a sufficiently technically advanced and well resourced operation could probably find the underlying server of the silk road. the dutch police have hacked hidden services before (directly, not using tor protocol attacks), so they are willing to do that kind of thing
 636 2013-06-11 09:50:27 <petertodd> Meh, I don't have much sympathy for some guy buying pot who is too stupid to use PGP - point is the sellers nearly all advertise PGP keys according to what those people have said.
 637 2013-06-11 09:50:34 <mrkent> what is a guard node? paper doesn't seem to define it before talking about it
 638 2013-06-11 09:50:41 <mrkent> and im not very familiar with tor
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 640 2013-06-11 09:50:42 <TD> it assumes familiarity with the architecture of hidden services
 641 2013-06-11 09:50:43 <petertodd> mrkent: read the Tor documentation
 642 2013-06-11 09:54:23 <petertodd> TD: Yeah, the overall design of Tor is scary given traffic analysis.
 643 2013-06-11 09:55:05 <TD> i would assume NSA wiretaps simplify traffic analysis a lot, though i doubt they give a shit about drug dealers
 644 2013-06-11 09:56:06 <petertodd> Yes, although at least for passive analysis Tor nodes are so bandwidth saturated that it gives defacto resistance to traffic analysis, usually.
 645 2013-06-11 09:56:33 <mrkent> hum.. guess just need more nodes
 646 2013-06-11 09:56:56 <petertodd> When I was running a Tor node on a fast server it was doing ~10MiB/second symetric with a few hundred connections, 24/7
 647 2013-06-11 09:57:04 <petertodd> (relay node)
 648 2013-06-11 09:58:23 <mrkent> is that a lot?
 649 2013-06-11 09:58:50 <TD> well, it adds up fast if you are paying for it
 650 2013-06-11 09:59:11 <petertodd> mrkent: *statisticly* it is for the guy trying to map incoming to outgoing packets
 651 2013-06-11 10:00:38 <mrkent> hum
 652 2013-06-11 10:00:57 <petertodd> TD: it says something that the VPS company went out of business... I was practically exploiting a loophole in their pricing structure
 653 2013-06-11 10:01:04 <TD> oh dear
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 655 2013-06-11 10:01:43 <petertodd> TD: been a few years, but they were really underpricing a particular set of features
 656 2013-06-11 10:01:44 <mrkent> If there is a way of allowing people to annonomously buy nodes, I bet you can make some moeny
 657 2013-06-11 10:02:07 <mrkent> Just so silkroad would pay for it
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 659 2013-06-11 10:02:24 <petertodd> mrkent: silkroad has a lot of listings for VPS servers payable in bitcoins last time I looked
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 661 2013-06-11 10:02:52 <TD> mrkent: torservers.net already exists
 662 2013-06-11 10:03:18 <TD> although they use a static address!
 663 2013-06-11 10:03:19 <TD> fail
 664 2013-06-11 10:03:44 <mrkent> petertodd, I mean something more distributed
 665 2013-06-11 10:03:50 <petertodd> well, the real issue is we need tor servers running on trusted hardware to have more faith the server's aren't just logging traffic anyway
 666 2013-06-11 10:04:15 <petertodd> TD: static address? what do you mean?
 667 2013-06-11 10:04:31 <petertodd> mrkent: https://freenetproject.org/ is the best you'll get
 668 2013-06-11 10:04:39 <mrkent> Like for example, something people can install on their pc, used as node, tracks uptime, and pays host for uptime
 669 2013-06-11 10:05:13 <petertodd> mrkent: ah, bitcoin can do that, the issue is we're not sure that adding money to the mix is actually a good thing
 670 2013-06-11 10:05:24 <TD> petertodd: as in they have one single address for all torservers donations
 671 2013-06-11 10:05:24 <petertodd> mrkent: proof-of-work/sacrifice might be better
 672 2013-06-11 10:05:26 <mrkent> no i don't particularly care for this, but if someone can do it, he ca basically tax SR
 673 2013-06-11 10:06:06 <petertodd> TD: ah, you mean they're transparent
 674 2013-06-11 10:06:45 <runeks> Woo! Finally got bitcoind running on a Raspberry Pi!
 675 2013-06-11 10:06:47 <petertodd> mrkent: I'm sure SR already pays plenty for hosting, a bit more won't bother them
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 677 2013-06-11 10:07:06 <runeks> Took a week of syncing and a 1 GB swap file, but it seems to be working.
 678 2013-06-11 10:08:27 <mrkent> petertodd, I mean more like pay people to act as relays, improve robustness of the onion network, etc, all the while not making it seem like 1 guy is paying for all this stuff
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 680 2013-06-11 10:09:10 <mrkent> I doubt that the growth of infrastructure is proportional to the growth of SR
 681 2013-06-11 10:09:38 <petertodd> mrkent: I know, my point is payment can have perverse incentives by shifting the social environment away from "lets do something good" to "how can we make money off of this?" - remember that currently a tor relay has no way of proving that they aren't keeping logs
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 733 2013-06-11 11:28:40 <dansmith_btc> I'm planning to submit a 2-line patch, introducing a "force" flag for sendrawtransaction - to forgo mempool validation. This is useful e.g. to sendrawtx on an UNsynced bitcoind. Is there a chance of the patch being merged?
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 737 2013-06-11 11:30:18 <sipa> dansmith_btc: i'm in favor of such a flag
 738 2013-06-11 11:30:45 <dansmith_btc> sipa, yes you were the one who suggested it, I remember :)
 739 2013-06-11 11:31:57 <michagogo> Does the protocol allow for requesting a given transaction from a peer?
 740 2013-06-11 11:32:27 <sipa> no
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 742 2013-06-11 11:32:50 <sipa> only recently-relayed transactions, or (since BIP 35) mempool transactions
 743 2013-06-11 11:33:05 <michagogo> As in, transactions the other peer has in its mempool?
 744 2013-06-11 11:33:11 <sipa> yes
 745 2013-06-11 11:33:47 <sipa> basically if a node announces a tx via 'inv' (potentially as response to a 'mempool' message), it must be willing to relay the actual data too
 746 2013-06-11 11:33:51 <sipa> but otherwise, no
 747 2013-06-11 11:34:27 <michagogo> Do the commands to display a transaction (get[raw]transaction, idk if there are others) request peers' mempools?
 748 2013-06-11 11:34:47 <michagogo> Or, is there a command to ask for your peers' mempools?
 749 2013-06-11 11:35:14 <sipa> not via RPC
 750 2013-06-11 11:35:38 <sipa> gettransaction is a wallet RPC, it just queries your wallet
 751 2013-06-11 11:35:54 <sipa> getrawtransaction queries your own mempool+blockchain (if indexed)
 752 2013-06-11 11:36:29 <michagogo> Does the satoshi client send mempool requests on its own automatically?
 753 2013-06-11 11:36:42 <sipa> no
 754 2013-06-11 11:37:13 <michagogo> Ah, so it's not actually used?
 755 2013-06-11 11:37:21 <sipa> it's used by SPV clients
 756 2013-06-11 11:37:30 <michagogo> I mean by satoshi
 757 2013-06-11 11:38:39 <sipa> the reason for not doing that (yet), is that it would make mempool transaction that don't confirm pretty much immortal
 758 2013-06-11 11:38:51 <sipa> there needs to be a mempool eviction mechanism first
 759 2013-06-11 11:39:35 <michagogo> It would be nice if you could at least manually request a peer's mempool
 760 2013-06-11 11:40:35 <michagogo> So if you're trying to check propagation, etc you can do that without needing to have had your node running for a while
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 822 2013-06-11 13:15:57 <melvster> anyone know *roughly* how many addresses there are in the uxto?
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 837 2013-06-11 13:31:10 <dansmith_btc> melvster, roughly between 0,1 and 0,5 million
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 839 2013-06-11 13:33:00 <lianj> melvster: about 13M in total (non-uxto)
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 843 2013-06-11 13:39:20 <melvster> dansmith_btc lianj: thanks!
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 854 2013-06-11 13:52:09 <jgarzik_> mornin'
 855 2013-06-11 13:52:59 <nsh> morning jgarzik_
 856 2013-06-11 13:53:04 <nsh> how's altanta today?
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 863 2013-06-11 13:53:49 <jgarzik_> southern-esque
 864 2013-06-11 13:53:58 * jgarzik_ looks strangely at the non-scrolling xchat
 865 2013-06-11 13:54:01 <jgarzik_> bbias
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 874 2013-06-11 14:09:45 <sipa> melvster: i think you misunderstood yesterday's point. addresses of course have a well-defined meaning; the pount is that a URI implementation does not need to know about this
 875 2013-06-11 14:10:00 <sipa> they are specified independently
 876 2013-06-11 14:10:43 <nsh> is the problem here the implied reusability of URIs for bitcoin addresses?
 877 2013-06-11 14:11:20 <sipa> melvster was arguijg that the URI specification should include the format of addresses
 878 2013-06-11 14:11:39 <nsh> hmm
 879 2013-06-11 14:12:17 <sipa> we argued that it should consider addresses as opaque
 880 2013-06-11 14:12:28 <nsh> w3c is pretty clear on this iirc
 881 2013-06-11 14:12:42 <nsh> The specification of the URI syntax does not imply anything about the properties of names and addresses in the various name spaces which are mapped onto the set of URI strings. The properties follow from the specifications of the protocols and the associated usage conventions for each scheme.
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 885 2013-06-11 14:12:52 <melvster> sipa: thanks for clarifying, there could be a misunderstanding, hopefully it can be cleared up .. there's a few different points 1) to what extent are bitcoin addresses opaque 2) what uses do they have outside of traditional generation as the hash of a key e.g. p2sh?  3) how does that related to the URI scheme ...
 886 2013-06-11 14:13:34 <nsh> (maybe there's some useful precedent in magnet URIs?)
 887 2013-06-11 14:13:45 <sipa> melvster: they are opaque for every use except the actual creation of transactions
 888 2013-06-11 14:14:16 <sipa> if you're not interpreting them to use them as a destination for a transaction, just pass them through
 889 2013-06-11 14:15:08 <melvster> nsh: yes, indeed ... tho im unsure magnet is registered with IANA yet ...
 890 2013-06-11 14:15:15 <nsh> it's not official, no
 891 2013-06-11 14:15:47 <sipa> i mean: addresses specify the destination of an address
 892 2013-06-11 14:16:05 <sipa> the URI scheme is a way to convey such unformation via a browser to a client
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 894 2013-06-11 14:16:22 <sipa> they are completely independent
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 898 2013-06-11 14:18:50 * nsh nods
 899 2013-06-11 14:19:12 <melvster> sipa: a URI scheme is independent of the existence of browsers or any other clients, it CAN be used to to convey information to a browser, but that's only one point, it's also used as a top level internet namespace to identify, link and relate things, in a way that is universal (ie prevents collisions)
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 903 2013-06-11 14:20:15 <melvster> essentially URIs are the global variables of the internet
 904 2013-06-11 14:20:26 <melvster> so they have an architectural significance
 905 2013-06-11 14:20:37 <tumak_> i'd say unique pointers but go on
 906 2013-06-11 14:21:13 <melvster> tumak_ : very good definition, tim berners lee always uses the term pointer too, but they are often called, names, addresses, references etc.
 907 2013-06-11 14:21:39 <tumak_> prefix specifies how to interpretet the rest
 908 2013-06-11 14:21:51 <melvster> they are called schemes or protocols
 909 2013-06-11 14:21:57 <tumak_> so closest CS thing would be closure pointer (paired function, data)
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 911 2013-06-11 14:22:28 <melvster> in CS we're normally taught not to use global variables
 912 2013-06-11 14:22:48 <tumak_> blah
 913 2013-06-11 14:22:57 <tumak_> there are private-scope uris too
 914 2013-06-11 14:23:06 <tumak_> like http://192.168.0.1
 915 2013-06-11 14:23:06 <melvster> tim said something interesting once ... 'in some languages when you add global variables, they fall apart.  When you add them to hypertext, you get the Web.'
 916 2013-06-11 14:23:12 <tumak_> its same pointer
 917 2013-06-11 14:23:18 <tumak_> but depends on the context, thus is private
 918 2013-06-11 14:23:21 <melvster> yes
 919 2013-06-11 14:24:02 <melvster> so the advantage of registering URIs is for unexpected reuse and interoperability between different schemes growing the network effect
 920 2013-06-11 14:24:15 <tumak_> huh?
 921 2013-06-11 14:24:19 <tumak_> are you a copywriter? :)
 922 2013-06-11 14:24:26 <melvster> lol
 923 2013-06-11 14:24:35 <melvster> im very very bad at marketing ...
 924 2013-06-11 14:24:41 <tumak_> you sure are master of buzz lingo lol
 925 2013-06-11 14:24:46 <nsh> lol
 926 2013-06-11 14:24:47 <tumak_> calling obvious thing magic names
 927 2013-06-11 14:25:13 * tumak_ wants to be a bitcoin supernode
 928 2013-06-11 14:25:16 <tumak_> whatever that means
 929 2013-06-11 14:25:20 <melvster> lol
 930 2013-06-11 14:25:58 <nsh> tumak_, you start off a node then try to get bitten by some kind of radioactive rand paul
 931 2013-06-11 14:26:03 <nsh> *as a
 932 2013-06-11 14:26:12 buZz_ is now known as buZz
 933 2013-06-11 14:26:21 <tumak_> supernode = easy
 934 2013-06-11 14:26:22 <tumak_> -static const int MAX_OUTBOUND_CONNECTIONS = 8;
 935 2013-06-11 14:26:22 <tumak_> +static const int MAX_OUTBOUND_CONNECTIONS = 256;
 936 2013-06-11 14:26:26 <tumak_> thats how you roll!
 937 2013-06-11 14:26:31 PhantomSpark has quit (2!~kvirc@pool-71-251-16-105.nycmny.fios.verizon.net|Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 938 2013-06-11 14:26:38 <tumak_> suddenly, you're finnish silver vendor
 939 2013-06-11 14:27:31 <tumak_> blah
 940 2013-06-11 14:27:52 daybyter has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
 941 2013-06-11 14:28:44 <melvster> ill give you an example of unexpected reuse
 942 2013-06-11 14:28:53 <melvster> user@host string was designed for email
 943 2013-06-11 14:28:57 Ry4an has joined
 944 2013-06-11 14:29:08 <melvster> yet today you can use it as a login method on the web, which no one ever anticipated
 945 2013-06-11 14:29:14 <melvster> at the time of eamil
 946 2013-06-11 14:29:52 <tumak_> actually, no
 947 2013-06-11 14:29:54 <melvster> by carefully defining what things mean they can be used in other contexts increases the value beyond the original design
 948 2013-06-11 14:29:59 <tumak_> it stems from early times, before uris
 949 2013-06-11 14:30:03 <tumak_> @ denotes username on system
 950 2013-06-11 14:30:11 <tumak_> finger tumak@machine
 951 2013-06-11 14:30:28 <melvster> yes, so now they made a system called 'web finger' to try and do the same on the web
 952 2013-06-11 14:30:30 <tumak_> only later on was it incorporated into uri scheme
 953 2013-06-11 14:30:39 <melvster> yes, that's true
 954 2013-06-11 14:30:39 <tumak_> btw, proper schema is mailto:user@domain
 955 2013-06-11 14:30:46 <melvster> tumak_: very good!
 956 2013-06-11 14:30:49 Eiii has joined
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 958 2013-06-11 14:30:49 Eiii has joined
 959 2013-06-11 14:30:51 <tumak_> as well as ssh: and git: :)
 960 2013-06-11 14:31:07 Namworld has joined
 961 2013-06-11 14:31:22 <tumak_> melvster: i'd be interested if there was ever namespace: collision in uri
 962 2013-06-11 14:31:30 <tumak_> but i cant think of any :/
 963 2013-06-11 14:31:42 <melvster> tumak_: what do you mean ... but i think yes
 964 2013-06-11 14:32:07 Toresh has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
 965 2013-06-11 14:32:10 <tumak_> namespace: is important part ... otherwise your uri is incomplete and context dependent
 966 2013-06-11 14:32:18 <melvster> absolutely
 967 2013-06-11 14:32:23 Toresh has joined
 968 2013-06-11 14:33:06 <melvster> there's currently big problems with http:
 969 2013-06-11 14:33:14 <melvster> because there are 2 URL specs, as it got forked
 970 2013-06-11 14:34:26 <tumak_> inb4 http urls wont be regex parseable
 971 2013-06-11 14:34:29 <melvster> then there are those that willfully violate a spec, and also those that simply make mistakes
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 973 2013-06-11 14:34:37 <tumak_> http is like regex antichrist in general
 974 2013-06-11 14:34:42 <melvster> lol
 975 2013-06-11 14:34:56 <tumak_> i think http headers are too irregular already
 976 2013-06-11 14:35:00 metabyte has joined
 977 2013-06-11 14:35:00 <tumak_> so only thing remaining is urls
 978 2013-06-11 14:36:11 <melvster> tumak_ : irregular?
 979 2013-06-11 14:36:34 agnostic98 has joined
 980 2013-06-11 14:36:48 panzerfaust is now known as panzer
 981 2013-06-11 14:36:59 <melvster> tumak_: so one thing id like to do is to be able to send money to any git: address OR any bitcoin: address
 982 2013-06-11 14:37:02 <sipa> tumak_: please do NOT do that
 983 2013-06-11 14:37:17 <sipa> tumak_: the MAX_OUTBOUND_CONNECTIONS = 256 thing
 984 2013-06-11 14:37:26 <tumak_> sipa: dont worry, only on testnet
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 986 2013-06-11 14:37:36 <sipa> tumak_: in that case, carry on :)
 987 2013-06-11 14:37:44 <tumak_> (cause of really crap propagation recently :)
 988 2013-06-11 14:38:26 <melvster> sipa: thanks again for the clarification ... will digest (no puns intended!) :)
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 991 2013-06-11 14:39:19 <nsh> sipa, what horrible things would happen? you end up slowing down a bunch of other nodes by trying to deal with too many at once?
 992 2013-06-11 14:39:23 metabyte has joined
 993 2013-06-11 14:39:27 <nsh> (with MAX_OUTBOU...)
 994 2013-06-11 14:39:38 <tumak_> nsh: it's generally ok if single node does it
 995 2013-06-11 14:39:42 <melvster> http headers have a registry, which is legacy from ages ago, and you can have key value pairs where the key can be namespaced, so you can make any header ... the registry can sometimes be contentious ...
 996 2013-06-11 14:39:46 <tumak_> nsh: but imagine what would happen if everyone did
 997 2013-06-11 14:39:56 <nsh> thickets  of love
 998 2013-06-11 14:40:00 <nsh> :))
 999 2013-06-11 14:40:09 kwikness has joined
1000 2013-06-11 14:40:14 <tumak_> poor home routers who can conntract only 100 connections or so
1001 2013-06-11 14:40:17 <tumak_> *conntrack
1002 2013-06-11 14:40:27 * nsh nods
1003 2013-06-11 14:40:31 <tumak_> the network would self-ddos to oblivion :)
1004 2013-06-11 14:40:33 <sipa> nsh: we've had problems in the past where connectable P2P ports where scarce
1005 2013-06-11 14:40:41 <nsh> right
1006 2013-06-11 14:41:15 <nsh> should/could nodes exchange data to regulate graph density?
1007 2013-06-11 14:41:26 <nsh> probably not that usefully
1008 2013-06-11 14:41:29 <tumak_> sipa: btw, maybe the limit should be always raised when running testnet :)
1009 2013-06-11 14:41:33 <tumak_> i mean, just for the heck of it
1010 2013-06-11 14:42:31 <tumak_> (also, tx lag or outright netsplit nodes on testnet is reason why i have to resort to hammering it)
1011 2013-06-11 14:44:52 denis_ has joined
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1014 2013-06-11 14:46:12 Neozonz has joined
1015 2013-06-11 14:46:27 <denis_> How to work with transaction's fees in automatic mode? For example I want to send money for my customer, so how I can calculate amount of fee to charge ?
1016 2013-06-11 14:47:24 <denis_> As I understand total fee  amount is become know only after
1017 2013-06-11 14:47:34 <denis_> transaction is complete?
1018 2013-06-11 14:47:40 <denis_> Is it right ?
1019 2013-06-11 14:47:45 robocoin has joined
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1024 2013-06-11 14:48:18 <tumak_> denis_: just never send less than 0.01 btc
1025 2013-06-11 14:49:07 <helo> tumak_: that sounds pretty excessive, are you serious?
1026 2013-06-11 14:49:15 <tumak_> ye
1027 2013-06-11 14:49:23 <tumak_> anything less is spamming the network
1028 2013-06-11 14:49:44 <tumak_> most notably, the tx is not free then
1029 2013-06-11 14:49:47 <helo> oh, he was asking total fee, and i though you were suggesting 0.01btc for a minimum fee ;)
1030 2013-06-11 14:49:49 <berndj> should bitcoind build and work with berzerkeley db 5.1? ubuntu 12.04 doesn't seem to have C++ -dev package for 4.8 (4.8 is listed in build-unix.md)
1031 2013-06-11 14:49:53 jaequery has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
1032 2013-06-11 14:50:43 Apexseals has joined
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1034 2013-06-11 14:52:39 <jgarzik_> berndj, yes
1035 2013-06-11 14:53:16 <jgarzik_> oh god python is so slow
1036 2013-06-11 14:53:50 B0g4r7 has joined
1037 2013-06-11 14:54:06 <sipa> berndj: it will work with 5.1, but you will end up with a wallet.dat file that can only be read with 5.1 and later BDB
1038 2013-06-11 14:54:06 <nsh> jgarzik_, doing what?
1039 2013-06-11 14:54:21 <jgarzik_> nsh, fully verifying the block chain :)
1040 2013-06-11 14:54:25 <berndj> sipa, that's okay, it's a new install
1041 2013-06-11 14:54:25 <TD> lol
1042 2013-06-11 14:54:29 <TD> i think that was predictable ...
1043 2013-06-11 14:54:33 <nsh> jgarzik_, ah :)
1044 2013-06-11 14:54:39 <jgarzik_> nsh, pynode is a fully verifying node
1045 2013-06-11 14:54:51 <jgarzik_> even linking with OpenSSL for ECDSA itself, it's still soooo slllooowwwww
1046 2013-06-11 14:54:55 <nsh> yup, i'm still planning to try and grok the code
1047 2013-06-11 14:55:07 macboz has joined
1048 2013-06-11 14:55:13 <nsh> have you considered pypy?
1049 2013-06-11 14:55:13 <jgarzik_> copying data structures is the pain point right now
1050 2013-06-11 14:55:21 <jgarzik_> doesn't help
1051 2013-06-11 14:55:27 <nsh> kk
1052 2013-06-11 14:55:29 <nsh> *k
1053 2013-06-11 14:55:30 Apexseals has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1054 2013-06-11 14:55:31 <jgarzik_> definitely considering all options :)
1055 2013-06-11 14:55:36 <jgarzik_> python requires some mods too
1056 2013-06-11 14:55:39 jaequery has joined
1057 2013-06-11 14:55:39 <sipa> jgarzik_: seen https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2645 ?
1058 2013-06-11 14:55:40 <jgarzik_> er, cython
1059 2013-06-11 14:55:49 <sipa> jgarzik_: it likely helps much more for python than for C++
1060 2013-06-11 14:56:20 <jgarzik_> sipa, indeed.  I need to do that for picocoin, too
1061 2013-06-11 14:56:29 Apexseals has joined
1062 2013-06-11 14:56:29 <jgarzik_> but yes, that technique would speed up python
1063 2013-06-11 14:56:48 <jgarzik_> FUCK YOU OSX AUTOCORRECT
1064 2013-06-11 14:56:50 <jgarzik_> sorry
1065 2013-06-11 14:57:05 <nsh> no, i think that was justified :)
1066 2013-06-11 14:57:09 <sipa> jgarzik_: still haven't installed a real OS? :p
1067 2013-06-11 14:57:28 <jgarzik_> the python impl works by copying the entire data structure, and then snipping off parts not needed for signature, quite like current C++
1068 2013-06-11 14:57:30 <kinlo> you can disable that no?
1069 2013-06-11 14:57:34 <jgarzik_> this is very slow in python
1070 2013-06-11 14:57:41 <tumak_> jgarzik_: isnt pypy the easiest?
1071 2013-06-11 14:57:47 <kinlo> never had any issues with it
1072 2013-06-11 14:57:49 <tumak_> i mean since youre using ctypes everywhere and all
1073 2013-06-11 14:57:52 <jgarzik_> and takes far more time to copy, than ECDSA sig verf itself!
1074 2013-06-11 14:57:55 <kinlo> i think i disabled it
1075 2013-06-11 14:58:01 <TD> but, why are you using python for this in the first place?
1076 2013-06-11 14:58:19 <jgarzik_> because the project's name is pynode ;p
1077 2013-06-11 14:58:32 <jgarzik_> I use it to generate the bootstrap.dat for the torrent
1078 2013-06-11 14:58:32 <tumak_> well, i applaud the effort
1079 2013-06-11 14:58:36 <TD> oh
1080 2013-06-11 14:58:42 <tumak_> attempts in java and javascript were horrible failures so far
1081 2013-06-11 14:58:42 <jgarzik_> would be faster to update picocoin to generate the file
1082 2013-06-11 14:58:51 <jgarzik_> (a linearized blockchain data file)
1083 2013-06-11 14:58:56 robocoin has quit (Quit: jaja)
1084 2013-06-11 14:59:07 <TD> tumak_: attempts to do what?
1085 2013-06-11 14:59:08 <jgarzik_> ("linearized" == a block chain with no forks)
1086 2013-06-11 14:59:18 <sipa> jgarzik_: or build that functionality into bitcoind? :p
1087 2013-06-11 14:59:20 <TD> jgarzik_: it might be easier to just integrate that with bitcoind
1088 2013-06-11 14:59:21 <TD> yeah
1089 2013-06-11 14:59:40 <jgarzik_> bitcoind isn't great for hacking
1090 2013-06-11 14:59:45 <tumak_> TD: full node which is on par compliant with satoshian to never fork the chain
1091 2013-06-11 14:59:45 <jgarzik_> would be easier in picocoin
1092 2013-06-11 14:59:46 <nsh> further convolution of bitcoind is not necessarily indicated :)
1093 2013-06-11 14:59:55 <sipa> jgarzik_: hell, expose it via HTTP :p
1094 2013-06-11 14:59:57 robocoin has joined
1095 2013-06-11 15:00:01 <jgarzik_> once bitcoind is more a library, then all good
1096 2013-06-11 15:00:07 <jgarzik_> sipa, heh, not a bad idea ;p
1097 2013-06-11 15:00:18 <sipa> http://localhost:8332/bootstrap.dat
1098 2013-06-11 15:00:20 <jgarzik_> sipa, GET /blocks/....
1099 2013-06-11 15:00:24 <tumak_> jgarzik_: why not extend just the rpc? :)
1100 2013-06-11 15:00:31 <jgarzik_> tumak_, puke
1101 2013-06-11 15:00:34 <jgarzik_> REST is better
1102 2013-06-11 15:00:34 <tumak_> lol
1103 2013-06-11 15:00:40 <TD> tumak_: there are no such implementations indeed, but i think bitcoinj is probably the furthest along. i wouldn't say it's a horrible failure. perhaps, less of a failure than the others :)
1104 2013-06-11 15:00:41 <jgarzik_> for this
1105 2013-06-11 15:00:52 <tumak_> TD: indeed :)
1106 2013-06-11 15:01:11 <TD> jgarzik_: yeah but the only way it'll get better for hacking is to hack with it :)
1107 2013-06-11 15:01:13 <tumak_> jgarzik_: for bulk queries totally
1108 2013-06-11 15:01:22 treaki_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1109 2013-06-11 15:01:30 <jgarzik_> GET http://127.0.0.1:8332/blocks/$hash
1110 2013-06-11 15:01:32 <tumak_> lossless blob encoding ...
1111 2013-06-11 15:01:40 <jgarzik_> I wouldn't want the entire chain in one HTTP request
1112 2013-06-11 15:01:46 <jgarzik_> raw binary, no encoding
1113 2013-06-11 15:01:49 <tumak_> well, actually if bitcoind just exposed leveldb cursors
1114 2013-06-11 15:01:54 <tumak_> that could be made pretty simple
1115 2013-06-11 15:01:58 <sipa> tumak_: ewww
1116 2013-06-11 15:02:06 <tumak_> (expose in rest)
1117 2013-06-11 15:02:08 jouke_ is now known as Jouke
1118 2013-06-11 15:02:16 <sipa> also, leveldb isn't used for this...
1119 2013-06-11 15:03:16 <tumak_> -txindex is in bdb?
1120 2013-06-11 15:03:33 <tumak_> drats and i wanted to use leveldb of bitcoind from external app :/
1121 2013-06-11 15:03:51 <jgarzik_> you use leveldb by querying data
1122 2013-06-11 15:03:55 <tumak_> yup
1123 2013-06-11 15:04:00 <jgarzik_> no need for direct cursor access
1124 2013-06-11 15:04:28 <tumak_> no i mean, now you have to use directly bdb which is not that good idea actually
1125 2013-06-11 15:04:34 <tumak_> so expose same level of access via rest
1126 2013-06-11 15:04:47 <tumak_> s/bdb/leveldb/
1127 2013-06-11 15:05:08 <TD> tumak_: what do you want, exactly?
1128 2013-06-11 15:05:12 <TD> tumak_: ability to fetch a block by hash?
1129 2013-06-11 15:05:14 <tumak_> (of course you wire it to internal bitcoind classes, not actual leveldb api in there)
1130 2013-06-11 15:05:19 <tumak_> TD: spv client
1131 2013-06-11 15:05:29 <tumak_> basically, what electrum-server does
1132 2013-06-11 15:05:30 <TD> how does leveldb cursors achieve that?
1133 2013-06-11 15:05:35 <sipa> wut?
1134 2013-06-11 15:05:36 <TD> electrum is not an SPV client in the usual sense of the word
1135 2013-06-11 15:05:40 <sipa> just use the P2P protocol
1136 2013-06-11 15:05:42 <TD> yeah
1137 2013-06-11 15:05:47 <sipa> it's what it is designed for
1138 2013-06-11 15:05:47 <TD> "getblock" is your friend
1139 2013-06-11 15:05:52 <sipa> getheaders even more
1140 2013-06-11 15:06:33 <sipa> tumak_: leveldb doesn't support multi-process access, and the encoding isn't designed to be easily accessible
1141 2013-06-11 15:06:36 [\\\] has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1142 2013-06-11 15:06:53 <tumak_> yup
1143 2013-06-11 15:07:09 <tumak_> but youre right, wire protocol with bloom filters is probably the next best thing
1144 2013-06-11 15:07:38 agnostic98 has joined
1145 2013-06-11 15:08:54 <tumak_> so i assume this - https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum-server/blob/master/patch/patch - is obsolete ?
1146 2013-06-11 15:09:30 <sipa> no
1147 2013-06-11 15:09:37 <tumak_> :/
1148 2013-06-11 15:09:43 <sipa> electrum isn't an SPV client
1149 2013-06-11 15:10:22 agnostic98 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
1150 2013-06-11 15:10:28 <sipa> (it does SPV-like validation now, but it doesn't connect to the P2P network)
1151 2013-06-11 15:10:29 denis_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)
1152 2013-06-11 15:10:30 <tumak_> i know, hopefully it will be someday
1153 2013-06-11 15:11:09 <tumak_> if the client computes merkles, then it is spv, no?
1154 2013-06-11 15:11:34 <sipa> call it an SPV client, but not an SPV node, maybe :)
1155 2013-06-11 15:11:47 <nsh> +1
1156 2013-06-11 15:11:48 treaki_ has joined
1157 2013-06-11 15:12:00 <tumak_> yeah
1158 2013-06-11 15:12:13 <tumak_> because it needs this electrum-server proxy
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1173 2013-06-11 15:20:57 <jgarzik_> pynode is running around 4 seconds per block
1174 2013-06-11 15:21:13 <jgarzik_> around 2,000 blocks to go
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1176 2013-06-11 15:22:41 denis_ has joined
1177 2013-06-11 15:23:20 sacrelege has joined
1178 2013-06-11 15:23:49 <denis_> and I have last question today )) bitcoind has a method called .listsinceblock()
1179 2013-06-11 15:24:03 <denis_> what it really do ?
1180 2013-06-11 15:24:32 <denis_> for example I want to recive all transactions after some block
1181 2013-06-11 15:24:57 <denis_> and I pass blockhash to it
1182 2013-06-11 15:27:01 milone has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
1183 2013-06-11 15:27:10 <denis_> and what kind of structe is back
1184 2013-06-11 15:27:12 <denis_> ?
1185 2013-06-11 15:27:20 i2pRelay has quit (Quit: kytv)
1186 2013-06-11 15:27:42 <sipa> try it?
1187 2013-06-11 15:27:44 <denis_> Is it will all transaction after this blockhash
1188 2013-06-11 15:27:46 milone has joined
1189 2013-06-11 15:27:47 <denis_> I try
1190 2013-06-11 15:27:59 i2pRelay has joined
1191 2013-06-11 15:27:59 <denis_> but it's logic doesn't clear for me
1192 2013-06-11 15:29:57 Eneerge has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1193 2013-06-11 15:30:19 ovidiusoft has joined
1194 2013-06-11 15:31:46 yubrew has joined
1195 2013-06-11 15:32:27 <denis_> for example
1196 2013-06-11 15:32:29 <denis_> I have
1197 2013-06-11 15:32:33 Eneerge has joined
1198 2013-06-11 15:32:36 <denis_> last transaction
1199 2013-06-11 15:32:43 <denis_> and I know it block hash
1200 2013-06-11 15:32:50 <denis_> i get new transactiion
1201 2013-06-11 15:33:22 <denis_> and when I called listtransactionssinceblockhash it's return nothing
1202 2013-06-11 15:33:22 sacrelege has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1203 2013-06-11 15:33:35 <denis_> but new transactions is coming
1204 2013-06-11 15:33:40 <denis_> and I can see them
1205 2013-06-11 15:33:52 <denis_> when I called this method without any args
1206 2013-06-11 15:34:02 <denis_> how it works ?
1207 2013-06-11 15:34:11 ericmuyser has joined
1208 2013-06-11 15:35:25 <nsh> jgarzik_, when you say copying datastructures is the painpoint in pynode blockchain validation, do you mind elaborating at all? e.g. what operations/functions in ChainDB.py are taking most time; could anything be written to work in-place?
1209 2013-06-11 15:37:14 <jgarzik_> nsh, SignatureHash in scripteval.py
1210 2013-06-11 15:37:28 <nsh> k
1211 2013-06-11 15:37:28 Apexseals has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1212 2013-06-11 15:37:31 <jgarzik_> nsh, everything else is quick
1213 2013-06-11 15:37:37 * nsh nods
1214 2013-06-11 15:37:41 Apexseals has joined
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1216 2013-06-11 15:38:21 <jgarzik_> nsh, chaindb uses leveldb, which is fast.  ecdsa verf uses openssl, which is fast.  the main issue is copying an entire data structure, then snipping off a few bits, then serializing, then hashing
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1219 2013-06-11 15:39:13 <nsh> ah ok, hence the applicability of /pull/2645
1220 2013-06-11 15:39:23 <TD> kinlo: poke
1221 2013-06-11 15:39:37 <jgarzik_> yep
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1300 2013-06-11 16:35:58 <TheUni> warren: you happen to have a chance to try out my recent changes?
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1326 2013-06-11 16:53:30 <enigmuriatic1> where can you access a given account's public key?
1327 2013-06-11 16:53:39 <enigmuriatic1> because an address is just a hash of a public key, right?
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1330 2013-06-11 16:54:43 <sipa> accounts have (almost) nothing to do with addresses
1331 2013-06-11 16:54:52 <sipa> and you can fetch an address' public key using validateaddress
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1336 2013-06-11 16:57:07 <dansmith_btc> IS there a way to connect a freshly installed bitcoind to a node so I could sendrawtx without kicking off the syncing process?
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1341 2013-06-11 17:02:30 <enigmuriatic1> sipa, where does the validateaddress command get the public key? can it derive it from the address?
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1345 2013-06-11 17:03:46 <sipa> enigmuriatic1: no, it only works for your own addresses
1346 2013-06-11 17:03:52 <sipa> enigmuriatic1: it fetches it from the walletr
1347 2013-06-11 17:04:27 <enigmuriatic1> sipa, how can you tell if a transaction is valid in that case? don't you need the spender's public key to see if they validated it?
1348 2013-06-11 17:04:40 <sipa> enigmuriatic1: the spending transaction contains the pubkey
1349 2013-06-11 17:04:47 <sipa> enigmuriatic1: together with the signature
1350 2013-06-11 17:04:53 <enigmuriatic1> interesting
1351 2013-06-11 17:05:06 <sipa> dansmith_btc: well not right now, because without synced node, your mempool will not accept your raw tx
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1353 2013-06-11 17:06:28 <enigmuriatic1> sipa, is that the hash160? probably not, right? i'm looking through raw transaction data and trying to find the public key
1354 2013-06-11 17:06:38 jaequery has joined
1355 2013-06-11 17:06:42 <dansmith_btc> sipa, OK, but assuming I modify the source so it accepts the rawtx, is there still a way to connect to a node w/out syncing?
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1357 2013-06-11 17:07:11 <lianj> enigmuriatic1: you have to parse the script and it (for normal scripts) contains the pubkey
1358 2013-06-11 17:07:33 <sipa> dansmith_btc: no; it seems you want more something like a p2p library to broadcast something yourself
1359 2013-06-11 17:07:41 tyn has joined
1360 2013-06-11 17:07:42 <sipa> dansmith_btc: as you really don't need any of bitcoind's validation logic
1361 2013-06-11 17:08:05 sark has joined
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1363 2013-06-11 17:09:55 <enigmuriatic1> does bitcoin-qt (and most other wallets for that matter) output leftover funds in a transaction right back to the address? or do they create a new address in the wallet to output them to?
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1365 2013-06-11 17:10:23 <sipa> enigmuriatic1: bitcoin-qt sends change back to a new address
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1370 2013-06-11 17:11:05 <enigmuriatic1> sipa, is that common practice with most wallets?
1371 2013-06-11 17:11:16 <Luke-Jr> enigmuriatic1: it's important to the Bitcoin system that addresses aren't used more than once, so anything that reuses it for change is kinda broken
1372 2013-06-11 17:11:17 <enigmuriatic1> it seems a lot messier. maybe it makes things more anonymous
1373 2013-06-11 17:11:25 Apexseals has joined
1374 2013-06-11 17:11:27 <sipa> yeah, it's for privacy reasons
1375 2013-06-11 17:11:33 <enigmuriatic1> Luke-Jr, why is that true?
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1377 2013-06-11 17:11:51 <sipa> there is a marginal security benefit as well
1378 2013-06-11 17:11:52 <Luke-Jr> enigmuriatic1: there are a number of minor reasons, which add up
1379 2013-06-11 17:12:14 <sipa> and it is messier if you reason about wallets as individual addresses
1380 2013-06-11 17:12:24 <sipa> if you work with wallets as a whole, there's not really a problem
1381 2013-06-11 17:12:56 <Luke-Jr> sipa: well, for the moment it necessitates more regular backups, but hopefully that's solved soon
1382 2013-06-11 17:13:21 <sipa> indeed
1383 2013-06-11 17:13:31 <sipa> agree there
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1386 2013-06-11 17:14:58 <nsh> Luke-Jr, why does it necessitate more frequent backups?
1387 2013-06-11 17:15:33 <nsh> oh, just because your old backed up wallets become less valuable
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1389 2013-06-11 17:17:00 <melvster> sorry i know it's the wrong forum but OMG : http://www.thegenesisblock.com/kncminer-pre-sells-over-16-ths-of-asic-bitcoin-miners/
1390 2013-06-11 17:17:33 Apexseals has joined
1391 2013-06-11 17:17:35 <melvster> that's like 1 billion smartphones, right?
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1393 2013-06-11 17:21:50 <nsh> melvster, by what metric?
1394 2013-06-11 17:22:11 <melvster> nsh: meh good question *average*
1395 2013-06-11 17:22:11 nomailing has quit (Quit: nomailing)
1396 2013-06-11 17:23:05 <melvster> dan kaminsky said that this would force bitcoin to change the hash algorithm
1397 2013-06-11 17:23:12 <melvster> but i dunno if he was serious
1398 2013-06-11 17:23:53 * nsh wonders how many TH of ASIC are waiting to hit the network, and how much this will reduce the mining revenue of each device
1399 2013-06-11 17:24:00 <nsh> i bet a lot of people are not going to recoup their investments
1400 2013-06-11 17:24:05 <gmaxwell> melvster: He refused to take a gentlemanly bet on the subject. Many parties consider his claims on this front to be ridiculous.
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1404 2013-06-11 17:24:32 <gmaxwell> nsh: it will take a lot of difficulty growth to make current devices non-profitable over operating costs.
1405 2013-06-11 17:24:34 BlackPrapor has joined
1406 2013-06-11 17:24:50 <melvster> you can always mine alts if btc becomes unprofitable
1407 2013-06-11 17:25:05 <nsh> i suppose the power efficiencies are balancing factor. hadn't taken that into consideration
1408 2013-06-11 17:25:56 <nsh> globally improved hashes per joule is a common good
1409 2013-06-11 17:31:42 <midnightmagic> melvster: pssh, only 16TH!?  that's nothing. geez I was expecting them to do a couple hundred.
1410 2013-06-11 17:32:07 <midnightmagic> melvster: Can you tell me where Kaminsky made that statement re: hash change.
1411 2013-06-11 17:32:53 <MC1984> kncminer is real?
1412 2013-06-11 17:33:01 <jgarzik> midnightmagic, San Jose conf panel
1413 2013-06-11 17:33:18 <jgarzik> MC1984, unknown so far.  ORSoC is competent enough.
1414 2013-06-11 17:33:33 <MC1984> what about the quantum helium coolant supercolliding optosemiconductor one
1415 2013-06-11 17:33:39 <jgarzik> midnightmagic, search @jgarzik twitter for a bet that @dakami tries to avoid
1416 2013-06-11 17:33:45 <jgarzik> after making his silly claim
1417 2013-06-11 17:33:51 metabyte has joined
1418 2013-06-11 17:34:06 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si-2niFDgtI ?  heh heh a bet?
1419 2013-06-11 17:34:56 <nsh> midnightmagic, he made the statement (in his usual hyperbolic idiom) at the security panel at btc2013
1420 2013-06-11 17:35:13 <nsh> "~there is zero chance the PoW algorithm will survive the year"
1421 2013-06-11 17:35:17 <nsh> ~"
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1424 2013-06-11 17:36:41 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: What's the bet? I don't see the terms in the twitter feed, just him accepting. :)
1425 2013-06-11 17:37:11 <midnightmagic> nsh: It's so nice to see someone using that term correctly. Bless you
1426 2013-06-11 17:37:32 * nsh smiles
1427 2013-06-11 17:38:38 Apexseals has joined
1428 2013-06-11 17:39:15 <jgarzik> midnightmagic, Conversation started at https://twitter.com/jgarzik/status/335877664030212096
1429 2013-06-11 17:42:20 brson has joined
1430 2013-06-11 17:43:01 <nsh> jgarzik, your twitter bio is now geographically misleading :)
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1432 2013-06-11 17:43:12 <jgarzik> heh, doh
1433 2013-06-11 17:43:29 <jgarzik> maybe misinformation is a good thing, now that Internet idiots think I'm a millionaire
1434 2013-06-11 17:43:43 <jgarzik> (for the record: far from it)
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1440 2013-06-11 17:45:37 <nsh> :)
1441 2013-06-11 17:47:51 <midnightmagic> "I don't want to be Babe Ruth calling a home run". lol good grief.
1442 2013-06-11 17:48:32 <MC1984> is that kaminsky
1443 2013-06-11 17:48:49 <midnightmagic> jgarzik: Ah thanks. Hrm. Weird that twitter didn't follow back to original parent.
1444 2013-06-11 17:49:03 setkeh has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1445 2013-06-11 17:49:18 <midnightmagic> MC1984: Yeah, that's Kaminsky.
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1447 2013-06-11 17:49:37 <MC1984> lol what hubris
1448 2013-06-11 17:49:41 <midnightmagic> At least he doesn't magically show up when you talk about him like Raoul used to.
1449 2013-06-11 17:50:07 * midnightmagic waits for it.
1450 2013-06-11 17:50:16 <MC1984> hes right in saying bitcoin has problems though
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1453 2013-06-11 17:51:11 * midnightmagic cheers!
1454 2013-06-11 17:51:12 <MC1984> lets just say after the prism thing this week, i think bitcoin faces a bigger threat model than most of these people realise
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1457 2013-06-11 17:51:23 * nsh blinks
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1459 2013-06-11 17:51:52 <nsh> MC1984, in what respect?
1460 2013-06-11 17:52:02 * midnightmagic will use his new power with much more care in future.
1461 2013-06-11 17:52:25 <MC1984> i think many people have underestimated authorities desire for control, and what theyre willing to do to gain it
1462 2013-06-11 17:52:25 <gwillen> midnightmagic: that was beautiful
1463 2013-06-11 17:52:33 <midnightmagic> did you see that?
1464 2013-06-11 17:52:33 cads has joined
1465 2013-06-11 17:52:40 <MC1984> midnightmagic did that seriously just happen?
1466 2013-06-11 17:53:13 <nsh> midnightmagic, achievement unlocked: reimplemented /SUMMON
1467 2013-06-11 17:53:15 <nsh> :)
1468 2013-06-11 17:53:15 <midnightmagic> It stopped working for a really long time, like two years..
1469 2013-06-11 17:54:21 <midnightmagic> He's kind of a hero of mine for that plus the awesome stuff he does.
1470 2013-06-11 17:54:43 <midnightmagic> :-)
1471 2013-06-11 17:54:47 <_W_> MC1984: I don't think so. I think most of us assumed that Prism and similar (and worse) programs already existed
1472 2013-06-11 17:54:49 * midnightmagic proceeds to have an awesome day.
1473 2013-06-11 17:55:06 <MC1984> _W_ most of US, yeah.
1474 2013-06-11 17:55:15 <MC1984> i did, but i was still suprised at the extent
1475 2013-06-11 17:55:35 jurov has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1476 2013-06-11 17:55:52 <MC1984> but for instance bitcoin is curently full of people who want the blocks uncapped. They dont realise
1477 2013-06-11 17:55:58 <MC1984> i didnt realis
1478 2013-06-11 17:55:59 <MC1984> e
1479 2013-06-11 17:56:00 <Luke-Jr> Raoul?
1480 2013-06-11 17:56:09 <Luke-Jr> hmm
1481 2013-06-11 17:56:15 jurov has joined
1482 2013-06-11 17:56:18 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: you lack the magic.
1483 2013-06-11 17:56:24 <BlueMatt> MAGIC
1484 2013-06-11 17:56:52 <BlueMatt> ;;seen gavinandresen
1485 2013-06-11 17:56:52 <gribble> gavinandresen was last seen in #bitcoin-dev 4 days, 20 hours, 26 minutes, and 27 seconds ago: <gavinandresen> rumpler pierce: thanks, hold off on more testing for now, I'll reproduce and fix...
1486 2013-06-11 17:56:56 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: alternate theory: when his nick is used, it prompts him to join, and he happened to be typing something and accidentally accepted the dialog when midnightmagic tried it :P
1487 2013-06-11 17:56:59 <Luke-Jr> this explains his quick quit
1488 2013-06-11 17:57:23 <rumpler> Hmm, has he had a chance to fix that?
1489 2013-06-11 17:58:07 <midnightmagic> Or he was just playing around because he knows I've been mentioning his magic trick every six months for years since he stopped doing it. :)
1490 2013-06-11 17:58:33 <MC1984> i have no idea whats going on
1491 2013-06-11 17:58:37 peetaur2 has joined
1492 2013-06-11 17:58:56 <MC1984> i think midnightmagic is some sort of wizard
1493 2013-06-11 17:59:18 <Luke-Jr> lol
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1495 2013-06-11 17:59:58 <nsh> +1 wizard
1496 2013-06-11 18:00:16 <midnightmagic> heh heh
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1521 2013-06-11 18:19:19 <sipa> 19:19:33 <@jgarzik> maybe misinformation is a good thing, now that Internet idiots think I'm a millionaire   <- which currency?
1522 2013-06-11 18:20:21 <jgarzik> sipa, bitcoins, with value measured in USD
1523 2013-06-11 18:20:31 santoscork has joined
1524 2013-06-11 18:20:37 asuk has joined
1525 2013-06-11 18:21:40 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: but everyone knows you sustain the BTC price!
1526 2013-06-11 18:22:36 Apexseals has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1527 2013-06-11 18:22:39 <BlueMatt> bitcoins are only worth something because jgarzik buys millions when the price goes low enough
1528 2013-06-11 18:22:47 <matjeh> heheh
1529 2013-06-11 18:23:28 Apexseals has joined
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1534 2013-06-11 18:26:15 <SomeoneWeird> hah
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1536 2013-06-11 18:26:27 DaQatz has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1537 2013-06-11 18:26:38 <melvster> midnightmagic: it was 160TH :)
1538 2013-06-11 18:27:46 <melvster> which is a lot considering feathercoin was taken out with 1TH!
1539 2013-06-11 18:28:55 DaQatz has joined
1540 2013-06-11 18:29:29 dcmii has joined
1541 2013-06-11 18:30:25 <Luke-Jr> melvster: it was?
1542 2013-06-11 18:30:28 <gmaxwell> melvster: you're confused.
1543 2013-06-11 18:30:56 <melvster> Luke-Jr: http://www.thegenesisblock.com/the-51-attack-what-bitcoin-can-learn-from-alt-coin-experiments/
1544 2013-06-11 18:31:56 <Luke-Jr> melvster: E_ARTICLEWRITTENBYIDIOT
1545 2013-06-11 18:32:04 <melvster> lol
1546 2013-06-11 18:32:12 <midnightmagic> melvster: Oh. Yeah that's a lot.
1547 2013-06-11 18:32:18 <midnightmagic> shoot.
1548 2013-06-11 18:32:39 <gmaxwell> -EMATHFAIL
1549 2013-06-11 18:32:48 <gmaxwell> (GH != TH)
1550 2013-06-11 18:32:54 <Luke-Jr> ^ that too
1551 2013-06-11 18:33:14 wiretapp1d is now known as wiretapped
1552 2013-06-11 18:33:20 agricocb has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1553 2013-06-11 18:34:04 <BlueMatt> see a googledoc with details on product comparison and then a day later an ad for one of those products...creepy
1554 2013-06-11 18:34:35 agricocb has joined
1555 2013-06-11 18:36:06 * BlueMatt is a bit late to the party since he only recently disabled adblock on selective sites which need help
1556 2013-06-11 18:36:14 <nsh> lol
1557 2013-06-11 18:36:24 <nsh> "self-prisming considered harmful"
1558 2013-06-11 18:37:34 <sipa> BlueMatt: somehow i see BFL advertisements everywhere..
1559 2013-06-11 18:38:46 <tumak_> prism'd
1560 2013-06-11 18:38:50 <tumak_> by uncle page
1561 2013-06-11 18:40:16 <jgarzik> nsh, hah
1562 2013-06-11 18:40:44 malexmedia has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1563 2013-06-11 18:40:53 BlueMatt has left ("Leaving")
1564 2013-06-11 18:40:59 BlueMatt has joined
1565 2013-06-11 18:41:26 <enigmuriatic1> when bitcoind metadata on a block says its version is 2, what does that mean? are all available blocks valid and active? (i'm using a version with the setting changed so i can get all block and transaction data)
1566 2013-06-11 18:42:26 <MC1984> it was about the P2SH fork
1567 2013-06-11 18:42:35 <MC1984> v2 blocks support that
1568 2013-06-11 18:42:35 <gmaxwell> No it wasn't.
1569 2013-06-11 18:42:45 <sipa> see BIP34, iirc
1570 2013-06-11 18:42:46 <BlueMatt> http://googleblog.blogspot.ch/2013/06/asking-us-government-to-allow-google-to.html <-- in other words "we arent giving the nsa special access, but they get access to everything under fifsa without having to ask a judge"
1571 2013-06-11 18:42:46 <MC1984> what was it about?
1572 2013-06-11 18:43:17 <jgarzik> when someone wants a Really Secure Wallet Program, what's the preferred recommendation?  bitcoin-qt w/ encryption?
1573 2013-06-11 18:43:30 <BlueMatt> offline anything, really
1574 2013-06-11 18:43:37 <MC1984> v2 blocks was a voting mechanism for something
1575 2013-06-11 18:43:44 <jgarzik> this person is not a programmer, so cannot be expected to write complex stuff to secure
1576 2013-06-11 18:43:44 <sipa> for height-in-coinbase
1577 2013-06-11 18:43:45 <BlueMatt> block-height-in-coinbase
1578 2013-06-11 18:44:12 <MC1984> oh, i thought that wasnt an important change
1579 2013-06-11 18:44:18 <BlueMatt> well, if you can live with it on android, the os-enforced security is nice
1580 2013-06-11 18:44:20 jdnavarro has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1581 2013-06-11 18:44:21 <jgarzik> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0034 (blk ht in coinbase)
1582 2013-06-11 18:44:32 <BlueMatt> but, on pc, bitcoin-qt w/ encryption
1583 2013-06-11 18:44:36 <jgarzik> MC1984, important in an obscure way ;p
1584 2013-06-11 18:45:08 <enigmuriatic1> so all blocks in the bitcoind database, regardless of version, are valid, active, transaction-containing blocks?
1585 2013-06-11 18:45:33 daybyter has joined
1586 2013-06-11 18:45:39 <gmaxwell> enigmuriatic1: What do you mean by "bitcoind database"?
1587 2013-06-11 18:45:45 <BlueMatt> no, they are all valid, active blocks...some large number do not have transactions
1588 2013-06-11 18:45:58 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, every block has at least 1 tx :)
1589 2013-06-11 18:46:11 <MC1984> enigmuriatic1 all blocks in the chain are valid by definition
1590 2013-06-11 18:46:17 <gmaxwell> The version number is irrelevant to the question you appear to be asking, but depending on what you mean by "bitcoind database" not all blocks in it are "are valid, active, transaction-containing blocks"
1591 2013-06-11 18:46:21 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: "real" transactions
1592 2013-06-11 18:46:33 <jgarzik> blocks in the __database__ may not be in the longest chain
1593 2013-06-11 18:46:40 <BlueMatt> in blk* there exist blocks that are valid non-active
1594 2013-06-11 18:46:43 <jgarzik> thus not "active"
1595 2013-06-11 18:46:44 <sipa> enigmuriatic1: every block in the block index is a valid block in the sense that it could be part of an acceptable chain
1596 2013-06-11 18:46:50 <BlueMatt> in fact, some may be invalid and unchecked
1597 2013-06-11 18:46:54 <sipa> enigmuriatic1: it is not necessarily active right now, though
1598 2013-06-11 18:47:03 <gmaxwell> But blocks returned by getblockhash, for example, are all in the longest chain.
1599 2013-06-11 18:47:05 <sipa> BlueMatt: currently not possible
1600 2013-06-11 18:47:19 <sipa> (though the database format allows it)
1601 2013-06-11 18:47:37 <BlueMatt> sipa: non-orphan blocks that are semi-valid but eg have an incorrect sig used to be stored
1602 2013-06-11 18:47:48 <BlueMatt> not sure about now, but if they were stored previously they are still there :p
1603 2013-06-11 18:47:51 <sipa> BlueMatt: oh yes!
1604 2013-06-11 18:47:57 <sipa> BlueMatt: you're absolutely right
1605 2013-06-11 18:48:17 <jgarzik> "non-orphan blocks that are semi-valid but eg have an incorrect sig used to be stored"   <<-- hehe enigmuriatic1 's brain probably just melted
1606 2013-06-11 18:48:37 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: how much are you actually working on cpfp, or would others looking at it duplicate effort?
1607 2013-06-11 18:50:09 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, zero code written as of today
1608 2013-06-11 18:50:34 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: you looking for me?  I'm here for about 20 minutes, then will disappear again for a few days… (heading down to DC tomorrow to talk to bureaucrats)
1609 2013-06-11 18:50:37 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, My typical M.O.: talk a lot, then produce code a couple months later (or not)
1610 2013-06-11 18:50:52 * sipa in favor of BlueMatt implementing cpfp
1611 2013-06-11 18:50:53 <jgarzik> Things need to percolate in the brain
1612 2013-06-11 18:51:21 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, bitpay wants to see cpfp, agnostic about who does it ;p
1613 2013-06-11 18:51:56 <gavinandresen> jgarzik: if you wanna fix the paymentrequest branch so bitcoin: URIs that are payment requests work on Linux I'd be eternally grateful...
1614 2013-06-11 18:52:41 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: re: email about uris, sorry I havent responded
1615 2013-06-11 18:53:03 <BlueMatt> been on vacation all weekend and destroyed my personal laptop last night (because upgrading packages removes /bin...)
1616 2013-06-11 18:53:17 <gavinandresen> vacation is a good excuse
1617 2013-06-11 18:53:31 <sipa> BlueMatt: you missed the zrh bitcoin meetup!
1618 2013-06-11 18:53:35 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, bitcoin related bureaucrats?
1619 2013-06-11 18:53:38 <BlueMatt> sipa: sorry, was in milan
1620 2013-06-11 18:53:51 * phantomcircuit *insert conspiracy theory here*
1621 2013-06-11 18:53:51 <sipa> BlueMatt: i know :)
1622 2013-06-11 18:53:52 <jgarzik> gavinandresen, gotcha.  Anything specific broken?  Or problem not investigated yet
1623 2013-06-11 18:54:00 dcmii has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
1624 2013-06-11 18:54:22 <melvster> phantomcircuit: some conspiracy theories turned out to be true ...
1625 2013-06-11 18:54:37 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: anyway, the way the debian packages do it now may be broken on gnome3, though I know it used to work in gnome2...have you tried the applications/... file in ~/.local
1626 2013-06-11 18:54:42 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: no conspiracy, the event is public. It might be an ambush, but if it is we're in good company (Tor folks will be there, too)
1627 2013-06-11 18:54:46 <phantomcircuit> melvster, shrug
1628 2013-06-11 18:54:52 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: in any case, Ill be taking a look at it once I get my personal laptop working again
1629 2013-06-11 18:54:56 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, heh
1630 2013-06-11 18:55:05 <BlueMatt> sipa: how did you know that?
1631 2013-06-11 18:55:06 <BlueMatt> creepy...
1632 2013-06-11 18:55:38 <sipa> BlueMatt: either you or someone you were with told me at TGIF
1633 2013-06-11 18:55:40 <phantomcircuit> given recent events i have my doubts about how anonymous tor actually is
1634 2013-06-11 18:55:44 <phantomcircuit> but that's off topic
1635 2013-06-11 18:55:45 <sipa> BlueMatt: and TD repeated it later
1636 2013-06-11 18:55:49 <BlueMatt> sipa: ahhh, yes, I did see you at tgif
1637 2013-06-11 18:56:01 weex_ is now known as weex
1638 2013-06-11 18:56:02 <sipa> BlueMatt: (maybe the fact that i know that this precisely is creepy in its own right)
1639 2013-06-11 18:56:03 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: yes, I tried putting the .protocol file in ~/.local/whatever and (I think) in the system directory.  Then rebooting.  Still no click-to-launch happiness… (and no idea how to debug)
1640 2013-06-11 18:56:21 <BlueMatt> gavinandresen: your email only mentioned the kde file, there is a second one for gnome...
1641 2013-06-11 18:56:28 weex has quit (Changing host)
1642 2013-06-11 18:56:28 weex has joined
1643 2013-06-11 18:56:32 <gavinandresen> BlueMatt: oh, of COURSE there is....
1644 2013-06-11 18:56:54 * gavinandresen has no idea whether his testing VM is kde or gnome, or what version....
1645 2013-06-11 18:56:59 <BlueMatt> sipa: to be fair, my memory took quite a beating this weekend, so...
1646 2013-06-11 18:57:10 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, lol
1647 2013-06-11 18:57:16 <phantomcircuit> oh uh
1648 2013-06-11 18:57:19 <sipa> "Reality is an illusion caused by a lack of alcohol" ?
1649 2013-06-11 18:57:26 <BlueMatt> essentially
1650 2013-06-11 18:57:39 <sipa> well, don't drink and code :p
1651 2013-06-11 18:57:49 <phantomcircuit> sipa, depends on what the codes for...
1652 2013-06-11 18:57:51 <BlueMatt> at least not much...
1653 2013-06-11 18:58:06 <sipa> ok, you can do some solidcoin work or so
1654 2013-06-11 18:58:39 Gnaf has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
1655 2013-06-11 18:58:45 beethove12 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1656 2013-06-11 18:58:52 <phantomcircuit> sipa, that network walker using epoll? i wrote that almost exclusively after a beer or two
1657 2013-06-11 18:58:59 <jgarzik> sipa, lol
1658 2013-06-11 18:59:01 <phantomcircuit> worst case? it doesn't work
1659 2013-06-11 18:59:03 owowo has joined
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1661 2013-06-11 18:59:17 <nsh> ballmer peak society
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1663 2013-06-11 19:00:33 beethoven8201 has joined
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1665 2013-06-11 19:00:56 beethoven8201 is now known as Guest46247
1666 2013-06-11 19:03:11 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, poke to update #2733 with sipa's comments?
1667 2013-06-11 19:04:04 <sipa> jgarzik, phantomcircuit: if you don't mind, i'm thinking about changing how wallet keys are stored entirely (just keyid -> secret+metadata+hash)
1668 2013-06-11 19:04:10 <sipa> jgarzik: based on both of your pullreqs
1669 2013-06-11 19:04:25 <Luke-Jr> saivann: maybe time to re-look at the fall conference pullreq
1670 2013-06-11 19:04:51 <BlueMatt> there's a fall conference?
1671 2013-06-11 19:04:51 Guest46247 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
1672 2013-06-11 19:05:07 <jgarzik> Matthew N. Wright wants me to come to Amsterdam in late Sept
1673 2013-06-11 19:05:33 <sipa> ha, you too
1674 2013-06-11 19:06:01 beethove18201 has joined
1675 2013-06-11 19:06:02 <jgarzik> My default is "avoid MNW" but never been to Amsterdam
1676 2013-06-11 19:06:15 beethoven2 has joined
1677 2013-06-11 19:06:21 <sipa> i wonder whether wumpus lives nearby?
1678 2013-06-11 19:06:26 chorao has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1679 2013-06-11 19:06:36 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, we discussed it in here a while ago, the pubkey is actually stored twice, once as the key in bdb and again DER encoded in the privkey, since im no longer loading the pubkey from the bdb key pubkey but from the pubkey in the privkey DER it is actually checking that they match and that the hash matches
1680 2013-06-11 19:06:39 * BlueMatt votes for a developer summit in north carolina
1681 2013-06-11 19:07:09 vigilyn has left ("Leaving")
1682 2013-06-11 19:07:13 <phantomcircuit> although really that doesn't matter since the only real question is whether the private key matches the hash, the public key can of course simply be recalculated
1683 2013-06-11 19:07:28 <jgarzik> it would be a great time for a trip, and Amsterdam sounds like fun
1684 2013-06-11 19:07:30 Apexseals has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
1685 2013-06-11 19:07:31 <phantomcircuit> sipa, yeah actually i think that's a good idea given that should be even faster
1686 2013-06-11 19:07:36 <sipa> and smaller
1687 2013-06-11 19:07:50 Apexseals has joined
1688 2013-06-11 19:07:52 <BlueMatt> why not before I go back to the states for school?
1689 2013-06-11 19:08:04 * BlueMatt is tired of being in the wrong country every time there is a developer meetup...
1690 2013-06-11 19:08:21 <nsh> BlueMatt, send a clone
1691 2013-06-11 19:08:21 <phantomcircuit> sipa, the vast majority of the size of a wallet is transactions, since both IsMine() and the transaction it depends on 3 layers deep are stored
1692 2013-06-11 19:08:28 <phantomcircuit> that can get pretty large pretty fast
1693 2013-06-11 19:08:30 <sturles> Best meal I've ever had was in an restraurant in Amsterdam.  Vermeer iirc.  Two Michelin stars.
1694 2013-06-11 19:08:30 <BlueMatt> s/country/continent/
1695 2013-06-11 19:08:50 * nsh constructs BlueMatt a telepresence robots from origami and old consoles
1696 2013-06-11 19:08:52 <nsh> *robot
1697 2013-06-11 19:08:56 <saivann> Luke-Jr : Actually, I though about improving the layout first https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/issues/198, then create a event page. I am a bit relunctant to the idea of displaying a huge banner 5 months before a conference. Maybe 1-2 month max?
1698 2013-06-11 19:09:06 caedes has joined
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1703 2013-06-11 19:10:57 <melvster> there's not a lot of bitcoin folks in amsterdam to my knowledge ... berlin, zurich, prague are good
1704 2013-06-11 19:11:12 <melvster> but prague has the cheapest beer
1705 2013-06-11 19:11:24 <BlueMatt> zurich beer is TOO DAMN EXPENSIVE
1706 2013-06-11 19:11:33 <petertodd> jgarzik: I've got a child-pays-for-parents idea with O(log n) (or even O(1) amortized) cost per tx added to the mempool, and O(n) cost per new block, however it can't handle the case of a tx where multiple children make it worth it to mine
1707 2013-06-11 19:11:57 <petertodd> jgarzik: also got semi-working code using another method, but I think I had the wrong approach the first time
1708 2013-06-11 19:12:17 LainZ has joined
1709 2013-06-11 19:12:35 <jgarzik> BlueMatt, vote with your wallet, and don't drink the beer there ;p
1710 2013-06-11 19:12:46 <melvster> you can pick up your trezor's too :)
1711 2013-06-11 19:12:47 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: wait, it works with one child now?
1712 2013-06-11 19:12:57 <BlueMatt> jgarzik: why do you think I was in milan for the weekend?
1713 2013-06-11 19:13:22 <BlueMatt> petertodd: multiple-inheritance or multiple-children?
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1718 2013-06-11 19:16:38 <petertodd> Luke-Jr, BlueMatt: Basically for each tx, record the total size and fees of the unconfirmed txs it depends on, then add the tx to a priority heap. That heap gives you the most profitable tx to include, based on the cost of including all unconfirmed it depends on.
1719 2013-06-11 19:17:31 <petertodd> Luke-Jr, BlueMatt: When a new block removes tx's from the mempool, the worst-case cost to update the memoized size/fees is O(n)
1720 2013-06-11 19:17:57 <BlueMatt> petertodd: ehhh, that heap has to be recalculated for every tx(/group) you pull out of it...
1721 2013-06-11 19:18:22 atweiden has joined
1722 2013-06-11 19:18:41 <BlueMatt> so...O(n^2) or somethign?
1723 2013-06-11 19:19:57 oleganza has joined
1724 2013-06-11 19:20:07 <petertodd> BlueMatt: No. So step one is to recalculate the priorities, which can be done by marking children of removed tx's as dirty and working down the DAG. This is O(n) for the mempool. Then you can rebuild the heap from scratch, O(n) at worst, or take advantage of how removing a parent can only increase priority, and with a fibonacci heap increasing is O(1)
1725 2013-06-11 19:20:08 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: not the whole heap.. I think
1726 2013-06-11 19:20:57 <petertodd> BlueMatt: Note how you have to be careful in your priority calc so that you "break the link" when a child tx has a lower tx/fee ratio of the parents total tx/total fee
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1730 2013-06-11 19:22:22 <petertodd> You'll also want to maintain a (sorted) set of all tx's with no children, so you can limit total mempool size by removing the lowest priority children.
1731 2013-06-11 19:22:31 yubrew has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
1732 2013-06-11 19:22:45 <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: well, ok, just the ones that are in the dep tree (which is worst-case all of them)
1733 2013-06-11 19:23:05 <BlueMatt> petertodd: yes, ok, I have something similar, but yea it breaks with multiple-inheritance
1734 2013-06-11 19:23:21 <BlueMatt> (and there are some attacks on that breakage if you aren't careful iirc, but Id have to go look at it all again)
1735 2013-06-11 19:23:55 <petertodd> yeah, I think multiple inheritance can be handled by propagating tx sets from child to parent, but I'd like to test the greedy version first carefully
1736 2013-06-11 19:24:32 <petertodd> I suspect we'll find that optimal tx selection with multiple inheritence is an inherently expensive problem
1737 2013-06-11 19:24:58 <BlueMatt> yes, I believe so
1738 2013-06-11 19:25:19 <petertodd> Anyway, child-pays-for-parents doesn't have to be optimal to be much better than what we have.
1739 2013-06-11 19:25:25 <BlueMatt> absolutely
1740 2013-06-11 19:26:21 <petertodd> The other interesting thing is that with replace-by-fee what you actually want to do is mark replaced dependent transactions as replaced, rather than remove them immediately, so when a further replacement comes in on the replaced size you can evaluate it and determine if it's the "better deal"
1741 2013-06-11 19:26:29 Apexseals has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1742 2013-06-11 19:26:44 <petertodd> Again, I suspect truly optimal replace by fee evaluation is inherently O(n^2), but limiting depth*breadth is fine.
1743 2013-06-11 19:27:17 * BlueMatt hasnt spent any thing thinking about cpfp wrt tx-replacement
1744 2013-06-11 19:27:19 Apexseals has joined
1745 2013-06-11 19:28:27 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, the n value there should pretty much always be relatively small
1746 2013-06-11 19:28:37 <BlueMatt> as long as you limit mempool size, yes
1747 2013-06-11 19:28:49 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: I agree. Stupidly long chains of dependent tx's are nuts.
1748 2013-06-11 19:29:04 <phantomcircuit> possibly implement an optimal replacement strategy and then limit the run time falling back to a suboptimal strategy
1749 2013-06-11 19:29:23 <phantomcircuit> that way most people get optimal behavior and bad actors dont
1750 2013-06-11 19:30:18 <Luke-Jr> IMO, multiple inheritance is not a good idea
1751 2013-06-11 19:30:25 <petertodd> Yeah, I think I'll just give it a total tx's visited counter in the part that checks all dependents, and give up when the limit is reached. Potentially the counter could actually be a max time to evaluate a replacement, and limit that time based on load.
1752 2013-06-11 19:30:27 d4de has joined
1753 2013-06-11 19:30:33 <sipa> still need to think about whether bad actors can't cause significantly suboptimal behaviour for others
1754 2013-06-11 19:30:53 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: your cpfp does do multiple inheritance though in some respect right? or did I misunderstand it?
1755 2013-06-11 19:31:08 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: no, it does what yours does AIUI
1756 2013-06-11 19:31:23 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: parents don't get any "bonus" for having multiple children depending on them
1757 2013-06-11 19:31:45 Apexseals has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
1758 2013-06-11 19:31:47 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: Ah, so it's taking the most valuable child, not all children?
1759 2013-06-11 19:32:23 <petertodd> sipa: The most likely source of suboptimal IMO, with repalcement and limited mempools, is buggy wallet software that handles unconf badly.
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1762 2013-06-11 19:33:14 <Luke-Jr> petertodd: it's considering every transaction on its own, but including the size of parents in the cost of children, and accepting both if it decides the child is worth it
1763 2013-06-11 19:34:02 Apexseals has joined
1764 2013-06-11 19:34:11 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: right, and memoizing that size calculation. OK, so we're closer than I realized.
1765 2013-06-11 19:34:54 <Luke-Jr> I suppose it would make sense to also consider Parent+ChildA+ChildB in some fashon, but it seems a more complicated calculation
1766 2013-06-11 19:35:05 <Luke-Jr> and not necessary atm
1767 2013-06-11 19:36:33 <petertodd> In any case, making that calculation be something you do in the mempool rather than only at CreateNewBlock lets you make more intelligent decisions on what tx's you expire from the mempool.
1768 2013-06-11 19:37:11 <Luke-Jr> indeed
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1770 2013-06-11 19:40:48 <spaceSub> heyho
1771 2013-06-11 19:43:37 santoscork_ has joined
1772 2013-06-11 19:44:21 <spaceSub> Is this the right place to ask about how to properly use the bitcoind api? I feel like it's a bit off-topic, since it's not really about the bitcoin-client/-protocol.
1773 2013-06-11 19:44:41 <sipa> shoot
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1780 2013-06-11 19:49:21 <mrkent> Anyone know of a good technical video covering mechanics of bitcoin?
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1782 2013-06-11 19:55:05 <jgarzik> woo, FLAC got updated
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1784 2013-06-11 19:55:48 <nsh> unsure of video,  but these podcasts with gavin on omega tau are good and go into some detail of the technical basis: http://omegataupodcast.net/2011/03/59-bitcoin-a-digital-decentralized-currency/
1785 2013-06-11 19:55:51 <nsh> (mrkent)
1786 2013-06-11 19:56:22 <jgarzik> Khan Academy has bitcoin videos
1787 2013-06-11 19:56:52 <nsh> oh, nice
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1791 2013-06-11 19:58:43 <mrkent> nsh, any article you know better than this one?: http://seekingalpha.com/article/1352651-how-bitcoin-works-and-what-that-says-about-long-term-bitcoin-value
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1794 2013-06-11 19:59:25 <mrkent> that is probably most concise and complete I've ever read, but I haven't been reading many overview articles in a long time
1795 2013-06-11 20:00:32 * nsh can't recommend a single best article, unfortunately
1796 2013-06-11 20:00:50 <nsh> it depends on what level of technicality is you wish to understand and at what depth and regardless you'll probably end up reading a few to get best coverage
1797 2013-06-11 20:00:59 <nsh> also i don't keep bookmarks currently :/
1798 2013-06-11 20:01:33 <nsh> perhaps start here: http://www.coindesk.com/best-bitcoin-videos-infographics-podcasts/
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1819 2013-06-11 20:18:26 <uk-trader> anyone buying  / selling
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1821 2013-06-11 20:19:17 <nsh> uk-trader, --> #bitcoin-otc
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1825 2013-06-11 20:24:06 <wumpus> sipa: indeed, Amsterdam isn't too far away
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1834 2013-06-11 20:27:39 <wumpus> I've been asked to be panelist there by a Matthew, hadn't realized he is MNW but suspected it somehow
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1836 2013-06-11 20:28:07 <mrkent> nsh ty
1837 2013-06-11 20:28:34 <nsh> np
1838 2013-06-11 20:31:29 <sipa> wumpus: will you attend?
1839 2013-06-11 20:32:21 <sipa> i wasn't aware it was MNM either...
1840 2013-06-11 20:32:32 <sipa> eh, MNW
1841 2013-06-11 20:34:12 <mrkent> anyone remember this vid on cryptoanarchy where its like zooming in and out of text into other text? And the guy says something about crypto-anarchy will exsist regardless, but will have more influence if goverments are more oppressive, and less inflence if govt is more free?
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1843 2013-06-11 20:34:41 <petertodd> given Matthew did wind up repaying what he lost on that silly bet last year, at least on a USD basis, I have some newfound respect for the guy, some...
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1846 2013-06-11 20:35:17 <sipa> he did?
1847 2013-06-11 20:35:32 <gmaxwell> petertodd: hm? I don't think he did.
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1850 2013-06-11 20:35:50 <gmaxwell> I think he claimed "I was only only joking" and poofed.
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1852 2013-06-11 20:35:51 <BlueMatt> which bet?
1853 2013-06-11 20:36:03 <petertodd> gmaxwell: he paid me back at least, and I didn't see any accusations that his list of people he claimed he paid back was a fraud in itself
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1855 2013-06-11 20:36:26 <petertodd> BlueMatt: the one that the pirate was legit last summer
1856 2013-06-11 20:36:36 <BlueMatt> ahhh...hahaha
1857 2013-06-11 20:36:59 <sipa> wowow... saying that pirate would repay his debt
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1859 2013-06-11 20:37:09 <sipa> that's very different from claiming he was legit...
1860 2013-06-11 20:37:13 <gmaxwell> ah different aspects what I was talking about was that he went and 'bought up' pirate debt from people offering to pay some fraction on it... but after pirate vanished he didn't actually make good on those deals.
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1862 2013-06-11 20:38:22 <petertodd> sipa: good point, I should be more careful with wording
1863 2013-06-11 20:38:43 <petertodd> gmaxwell: my understanding is a big issue with the bet was people were using it to hedge pirate holdings
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1865 2013-06-11 20:38:59 <petertodd> gmaxwell: I don't know anything about him buying up pirate debt directly
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1921 2013-06-11 21:56:41 <warren> TheUni: fell asleep
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1926 2013-06-11 22:06:05 <gmaxwell> Genjix has asked me for a BIP number for "'Fixed Length "version" Message (Relay-Transactions Field)'",  is there some discussion wrt BIP37 that I've missed someplace?
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1928 2013-06-11 22:07:15 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, you mean https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0037
1929 2013-06-11 22:07:18 <phantomcircuit> ?
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1931 2013-06-11 22:07:57 <phantomcircuit> clearly BIP numbers should be assigned at random from a large key space to avoid collisions
1932 2013-06-11 22:08:04 <sipa> no that's just bloom filtering...
1933 2013-06-11 22:08:06 <nsh> lol
1934 2013-06-11 22:08:06 * phantomcircuit goes to lunch
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1936 2013-06-11 22:09:03 <gmaxwell> I mean, I think what he wants a BIP about has something to do with BIP37 making the version message variable length.
1937 2013-06-11 22:09:06 <gmaxwell> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0037#Extensions_to_existing_messages
1938 2013-06-11 22:09:36 <warren> Does cozz ever come online here?
1939 2013-06-11 22:09:54 <gmaxwell> But I'm basically guessing because his email to me was not clear enough with the context available to me.
1940 2013-06-11 22:10:27 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: could ask him to send a draft to the mailing list ;)
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1947 2013-06-11 22:25:59 <TheUni> warren: ok, np
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1950 2013-06-11 22:26:39 <warren> TheUni: build succeeded, trying again to test determinism
1951 2013-06-11 22:26:51 <TheUni> great, thanks
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2015 2013-06-11 23:06:13 <warren> TheUni: sample size of two indicates they are the same
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2028 2013-06-11 23:12:56 <funky> sipa:  hey, are they any plans to make new wallets than can compute any address balance?
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2032 2013-06-11 23:13:21 <funky> I realised people checking blockchain server constanly can even crash it eventually
2033 2013-06-11 23:13:22 <funky> :)
2034 2013-06-11 23:14:14 <phantomcircuit> funky, an address "balance" is basically nonsensical
2035 2013-06-11 23:14:42 <sipa> funky: i certainly won't write that
2036 2013-06-11 23:14:46 <phantomcircuit> if you want a list of all of the transaction outputs which can be spent by the private key matching a specific address that's one thing
2037 2013-06-11 23:14:54 <funky> yes
2038 2013-06-11 23:14:57 <phantomcircuit> if you want to treat addresses as a balance
2039 2013-06-11 23:15:00 <phantomcircuit> that's just a bad idea
2040 2013-06-11 23:15:08 <phantomcircuit> as for the transaction outputs
2041 2013-06-11 23:15:09 <sipa> funky: i think we should move away from thinking in terms of individual addresses
2042 2013-06-11 23:15:12 <phantomcircuit> i might write an index for that
2043 2013-06-11 23:15:21 <funky> sipa move towards what?
2044 2013-06-11 23:15:25 <sipa> funky: wallets
2045 2013-06-11 23:15:32 <phantomcircuit> but i've found it easier to just pulla ll the info from the rpc api and do block chain reorgs myself
2046 2013-06-11 23:15:42 <sipa> funky: a wallet has a balance, receives transactions, sends transactions
2047 2013-06-11 23:15:51 <sipa> funky: addresses are something a human shouldn't need to see
2048 2013-06-11 23:16:02 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: be mindful that some people have no interest or willingness to handle the details correctly.
2049 2013-06-11 23:16:11 <sipa> funky: with deterministic wallets, one backup is enough
2050 2013-06-11 23:16:29 <funky> depends since many people want to use diff addresses for futher anon
2051 2013-06-11 23:16:36 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, visa vie gettransactionoutputs <address> ?
2052 2013-06-11 23:16:39 <funky> especially after latest nsa scandals etc
2053 2013-06-11 23:16:40 <sipa> funky: then they should use separate wallets
2054 2013-06-11 23:16:47 <phantomcircuit> my intent there was to make the results be just raw data
2055 2013-06-11 23:16:54 <sipa> funky: which needs support for multiple wallets in clients
2056 2013-06-11 23:17:21 <sipa> funky: but it's a far more reasonable solution than expecting that people will micro-manage every transaction and address
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2058 2013-06-11 23:18:18 <funky> phantomcircuit: if you want a list of all of the transaction outputs which can be spent by the private key matching a specific address that's one thing.  yes thats what I would like to figure out, it seems it have to be coded into client since default client lists only own wallet balance
2059 2013-06-11 23:18:41 <phantomcircuit> funky, that's possible
2060 2013-06-11 23:18:42 <sipa> funky: with coin control you can see the individual output coins
2061 2013-06-11 23:18:42 <Luke-Jr> funky: addresses should only ever be used once, but even then, you are not anonymous
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2064 2013-06-11 23:19:10 <Luke-Jr> funky: wallets have balances, not individual addresses
2065 2013-06-11 23:19:39 <funky> Luke-Jr I presumed each address holds certain amount of spendable outputs
2066 2013-06-11 23:19:49 <TheUni> warren: great news, thanks for testing
2067 2013-06-11 23:19:50 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, should and what users do are unfortunately two very different things :)
2068 2013-06-11 23:19:55 <Luke-Jr> funky: each address *should* control exactly one output.
2069 2013-06-11 23:20:17 <sipa> funky: talking about the balance of an address is perfectly well defined
2070 2013-06-11 23:20:18 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: but the concept of an "address balance" is not really Bitcoin - it's blockchain.info nonsense
2071 2013-06-11 23:20:31 <sipa> funky: it's just confusing to many people
2072 2013-06-11 23:20:33 ne0futur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2073 2013-06-11 23:20:52 <sipa> and it doesn't match the abstraction the wallet provides
2074 2013-06-11 23:20:54 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, i understand, but being able to quickly and easily list all of the transaction outputs for an address would massively simply a lot of merchant stuff
2075 2013-06-11 23:21:08 <funky> phantomcircuit:  yes
2076 2013-06-11 23:21:12 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: sure, and when users start getting their funds frozen by blacklisting, and when cryptographic compromises make reuse result in lost funds... well, people will be happy that there were people thinking a little further ahead than solving their most immediate problem.
2077 2013-06-11 23:21:19 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: deterministic wallets simplifies merchant stuff far better
2078 2013-06-11 23:21:26 Maxvalor has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2079 2013-06-11 23:21:34 <funky> how does deterministic wallet work?
2080 2013-06-11 23:21:35 <phantomcircuit> especially since it would allow for "safe" bitcoinds which dont end up bloated with IsMine() transactions and dependencies
2081 2013-06-11 23:21:54 <Luke-Jr> funky: it starts with a private seed, and created unlimited keys based on that one root
2082 2013-06-11 23:21:57 <sipa> meh, the wallet and blockchain code need to be in separate processes
2083 2013-06-11 23:22:07 <sipa> that's an orthogonal issue
2084 2013-06-11 23:22:30 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, no matter what you do some user is going to get an invoice for 1 btc and send 2 transactions for 0.5 btc each
2085 2013-06-11 23:22:46 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, being able to handle that in a sane manner is currently ridiculously slow
2086 2013-06-11 23:22:48 <funky> yes its human @ phantomcircuit
2087 2013-06-11 23:22:51 Maxvalor has joined
2088 2013-06-11 23:23:21 <phantomcircuit> and while deterministic wallets will eventually be a solution
2089 2013-06-11 23:23:24 <phantomcircuit> they're not today
2090 2013-06-11 23:23:25 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: not really, if you wait for confirmations
2091 2013-06-11 23:23:33 <sipa> meh, implementation issues
2092 2013-06-11 23:23:41 oleganza has quit (Quit: oleganza)
2093 2013-06-11 23:23:49 <sipa> i think it's unlikely that the bitcoind wallet implementation will end up being the one used by merchants
2094 2013-06-11 23:23:51 <phantomcircuit> sipa, heh yeah minor implementation details ;)
2095 2013-06-11 23:23:55 <sipa> at least in its current form
2096 2013-06-11 23:24:19 patcon has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2097 2013-06-11 23:24:26 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, believe me if you have enough address for 1 address per invoice with the current code you're going to have a very bad time
2098 2013-06-11 23:24:28 <funky> Luke-Jr is there more detailed howto regarding determenistic wallet?
2099 2013-06-11 23:24:32 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: resolve by payment protocol. :P
2100 2013-06-11 23:24:37 <sipa> ^
2101 2013-06-11 23:24:42 <sipa> funky: you can read BIP32
2102 2013-06-11 23:24:49 <funky> ty
2103 2013-06-11 23:24:50 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: don't store them in bitcoind at all
2104 2013-06-11 23:25:02 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, never underestimate the ability of idiots to break the most elegantly constructed system
2105 2013-06-11 23:25:03 <phantomcircuit> :/
2106 2013-06-11 23:25:18 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: idiots who try to bypass the payment protocol throw their money away
2107 2013-06-11 23:25:37 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: when they build a better idiot we'll improve the mousetrap.
2108 2013-06-11 23:25:41 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, yeah good luck telling that to them
2109 2013-06-11 23:25:47 <sipa> well it should be made sure that the correct solution is the easiest one
2110 2013-06-11 23:25:48 <phantomcircuit> "LUKE-JR STOLE MY BITCOISN!!!"
2111 2013-06-11 23:25:49 <funky> some one told me java cryptography got holes. I might ask him to clarify
2112 2013-06-11 23:25:53 xnyhps has left ()
2113 2013-06-11 23:25:56 <funky> phantomcircuit: well so what :P hee
2114 2013-06-11 23:26:03 <sipa> funky: ...
2115 2013-06-11 23:26:03 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: I have no trouble ignoring trolls
2116 2013-06-11 23:26:19 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, ok so that's your personal preference
2117 2013-06-11 23:26:27 <phantomcircuit> and well obviously im rpetty good at ignoring idiots
2118 2013-06-11 23:26:30 <funky> sipa yes java got many holes
2119 2013-06-11 23:26:34 oleganza has joined
2120 2013-06-11 23:26:36 <phantomcircuit> but some people dont operate that way
2121 2013-06-11 23:26:43 <phantomcircuit> it would be nice if they weren't screwed :/
2122 2013-06-11 23:27:17 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: it's simple. you didn't do your part of the contract, you don't get what I offered.
2123 2013-06-11 23:27:31 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, either way i dont really see the harm in returning transactions containing outputs which can be spent by the private key associated with an address
2124 2013-06-11 23:27:41 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: still you have to be able to recover if you can recover when things are screwed up— phantomcircuit is right there. But that doesn't have to be fast.
2125 2013-06-11 23:27:44 <phantomcircuit> currently people with lots of payment addresses are building their own clients
2126 2013-06-11 23:27:50 <phantomcircuit> which is horribly worse
2127 2013-06-11 23:28:23 i2pRelay has quit (Quit: kytv)
2128 2013-06-11 23:28:29 <sipa> phantomcircuit: listunspent?
2129 2013-06-11 23:28:42 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, there's a fundamental shift in bitcoin of power to the merchant, the flip side is that you should at least make an effort to assist people who do stupid things
2130 2013-06-11 23:28:55 i2pRelay has joined
2131 2013-06-11 23:29:01 <phantomcircuit> sipa, also want spent outputs though
2132 2013-06-11 23:29:12 <gmaxwell> "no"
2133 2013-06-11 23:29:18 tyn has joined
2134 2013-06-11 23:29:27 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, wat
2135 2013-06-11 23:29:50 <sipa> if people are inclined to do stupid things, it's because the right solution is too hard
2136 2013-06-11 23:30:00 <sipa> and that should be fixed by making it easier
2137 2013-06-11 23:30:07 <Luke-Jr> or the wrong one too easy
2138 2013-06-11 23:30:10 <Luke-Jr> could make it harder
2139 2013-06-11 23:30:12 <Luke-Jr> :P
2140 2013-06-11 23:30:15 <phantomcircuit> sipa, you under estimate the ingenuity of stupid people
2141 2013-06-11 23:30:16 <phantomcircuit> :/
2142 2013-06-11 23:30:24 <funky> phantomcircuit:  :D
2143 2013-06-11 23:30:26 <gmaxwell> Write your own sofware because you're unwilling to do the write thing, lose a bunch of money for a bunch of people and go bankrupt. Problem solved.
2144 2013-06-11 23:30:34 <gmaxwell> er right thing*. :)
2145 2013-06-11 23:30:42 xnyhps has joined
2146 2013-06-11 23:30:48 <gmaxwell> as sipa says, doing the right thing should be made easier.
2147 2013-06-11 23:30:55 <sipa> phantomcircuit: there's a large difference between active stupidity and ignorance
2148 2013-06-11 23:30:58 <gmaxwell> Certantly doing the known dumb and dangerous things shouldn't be made easier.
2149 2013-06-11 23:31:11 <sipa> you can't do much about the former, but the second is a much larger problem
2150 2013-06-11 23:31:13 <funky> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/10090/how-to-get-an-addresss-balance-with-the-bitcoin-client
2151 2013-06-11 23:31:39 <funky> sipa what are those watch-only wallets ?
2152 2013-06-11 23:31:48 <phantomcircuit> sipa, the two are essentially indistinguishable in practice
2153 2013-06-11 23:32:07 <sipa> funky: a wallet that just watches some addresses, but can't spend
2154 2013-06-11 23:32:49 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: they aren't, one one will write software (or pay people to write software) to accomplish their stupidity. ... Only one isn't helped by making a sane thing to do the first thing they come across and/or the example they find when they google.
2155 2013-06-11 23:32:54 <phantomcircuit> sipa, also what im talking about is basically just bypassing the wallet code entirely, it's fairly easy to generate transactions outside of bitcoind correctly, but it's much more difficult to correctly handle all the rules to figure out which transactions are valid and how far back they are in the chain
2156 2013-06-11 23:33:09 <funky> nods
2157 2013-06-11 23:33:53 <funky> also many small exchange I think use 1 wallet many address for clients instead of 1 wallet per client
2158 2013-06-11 23:34:03 <funky> there are various business implementations
2159 2013-06-11 23:34:16 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: I think as of right now we are not just completely disinterested but actively opposed to adopting functionality to encourage the address == account model.
2160 2013-06-11 23:34:29 <phantomcircuit> funky, i cant imagine anybody runs 1 wallet per client that would be complically expensive and would breka constantly
2161 2013-06-11 23:34:32 Tantadruj has quit (Quit: DoubleRecall Turns Paywalls Into Advertising Dollars - NYTimes.com http://nyti.ms/odHOgy)
2162 2013-06-11 23:34:59 <gmaxwell> funky: when sipa talks about a wallet as the accounting unit he means something largely different than exists today.
2163 2013-06-11 23:35:34 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, that's not really what im saying though, im saying that addresses are being used to record which invoice/account/user should receive a bitcoin transfer
2164 2013-06-11 23:35:36 <funky> gmaxwell:  what is then wallet in sipa view? whats the main difference?
2165 2013-06-11 23:35:46 chorao has joined
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2168 2013-06-11 23:36:12 <phantomcircuit> as long as the address is changed as soon as a transaction is seen which pays to it
2169 2013-06-11 23:36:20 <phantomcircuit> i dont see how deterministic wallets improves that
2170 2013-06-11 23:36:37 <sipa> no, the payment protocol improves that
2171 2013-06-11 23:36:40 <phantomcircuit> beyond that the users client could generate the next address to use
2172 2013-06-11 23:37:25 <sipa> and yes, i don't think there's anything wrong with using address to identify transactions
2173 2013-06-11 23:37:39 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: though determinstic wallets do also improve that, because you'd likely assign a HD chain per customer. (and if you told the user about that is orthorgonal), then you could query for all txn asscoiated with that chain.
2174 2013-06-11 23:37:39 <sipa> just not as individual separable accounting units
2175 2013-06-11 23:37:58 <phantomcircuit> the payment protocol is not going to be widely implemented anytime soon
2176 2013-06-11 23:38:08 rdponticelli has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2177 2013-06-11 23:38:11 <funky> sipa how come not as individual acc units?
2178 2013-06-11 23:38:16 <funky> its so handy
2179 2013-06-11 23:38:21 <sipa> funky: it's horrible
2180 2013-06-11 23:38:26 B0g4r7 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2181 2013-06-11 23:38:27 <funky> sipa in which way?
2182 2013-06-11 23:38:43 <funky> it seems to intuitive and I think satoshi wanted things simple
2183 2013-06-11 23:38:44 <gmaxwell> funky: it causes people to lose money, it puts the fungibility of bitcoin in danger, it breaks privacy, etc.
2184 2013-06-11 23:38:45 <sipa> funky: it's like trying to keep track where each of the coins in your wallet came from
2185 2013-06-11 23:38:47 rdymac has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2186 2013-06-11 23:38:54 <sipa> funky: you don't care about that
2187 2013-06-11 23:39:04 <funky> i love simplicity
2188 2013-06-11 23:39:05 <sipa> you only care who paid you how much, and what you have left
2189 2013-06-11 23:39:08 <phantomcircuit> sipa, that's my point though, currently encouraging users to use addresses only once is materially detrimental to merchants because the wallet code handles the situation poorly
2190 2013-06-11 23:39:12 roconnor has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2191 2013-06-11 23:39:28 <phantomcircuit> sipa, an rpc call which returned all the outputs which pay to an address would change that
2192 2013-06-11 23:39:28 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: I don't see how that follows.
2193 2013-06-11 23:39:30 <sipa> phantomcircuit: i don't really care about now
2194 2013-06-11 23:39:45 <funky> gmaxwell lose money how?
2195 2013-06-11 23:39:46 <sipa> phantomcircuit: listreceivedbyaddress?
2196 2013-06-11 23:39:49 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, wallets with lots of addresses are slow
2197 2013-06-11 23:39:55 rumpler has left ()
2198 2013-06-11 23:40:03 <sipa> that's exactly what it is for
2199 2013-06-11 23:40:14 <jchp> that implies the private key is stored in the wallet though?
2200 2013-06-11 23:40:25 <funky> to me it seems current system is fine
2201 2013-06-11 23:40:28 <sipa> jchp: for now, yes
2202 2013-06-11 23:40:30 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: sofixit?  Though I use a wallet with tens of thousands of addresses in it just fine.
2203 2013-06-11 23:40:40 PrimeStunna has joined
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2205 2013-06-11 23:40:52 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: where are these merchants with more addresses than this that can't apparently expend some resources getting that performance improved?
2206 2013-06-11 23:41:02 <phantomcircuit> sipa, iirc that's just for addresses which are in the local wallet
2207 2013-06-11 23:41:07 whiterabbit has joined
2208 2013-06-11 23:41:08 <sipa> phantomcircuit: yes, obviously
2209 2013-06-11 23:41:12 <phantomcircuit> im talking a node where it's wallet.dat is immaterial
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2212 2013-06-11 23:41:37 <funky> merchants can simply check txt string to verify payment
2213 2013-06-11 23:41:39 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, they all spent their resources writing their own clients
2214 2013-06-11 23:41:41 <funky> and use 1 address even
2215 2013-06-11 23:41:43 <phantomcircuit> mtgox coinbase
2216 2013-06-11 23:41:43 <sipa> phantomcircuit: i'm completely against solutions where you rely on a complete and fully indexed blockchain, because you couldn't be bother to filter out the parts you care about
2217 2013-06-11 23:41:44 <funky> its so simple
2218 2013-06-11 23:41:50 oleganza has quit (Quit: oleganza)
2219 2013-06-11 23:41:52 <phantomcircuit> im not sure what bitpay does but im sure it's something liek that
2220 2013-06-11 23:42:17 <jchp> yeah, and there's no open source documented "best practices" for operating a large bitcoin site afaik
2221 2013-06-11 23:42:18 <funky> sipa complete and fully indexed chain offers security of transcations
2222 2013-06-11 23:42:20 <phantomcircuit> sipa, it's a fairly small index actually
2223 2013-06-11 23:42:26 <sipa> funky: security has 0 to do with it
2224 2013-06-11 23:42:27 tyn has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2225 2013-06-11 23:42:43 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: they do that regardless of the implications because everyone wants to write their own raytracer^wemail^irc^wbitcoin client.
2226 2013-06-11 23:42:47 <gmaxwell> :P
2227 2013-06-11 23:42:54 <funky> yes
2228 2013-06-11 23:42:58 <phantomcircuit> sipa, currently the only way to do this is to walk the chain with an rpc call for every block and every transaction
2229 2013-06-11 23:42:58 <sipa> phantomcircuit: i still don't care, there are solutions that scale better, so i'll encourage those
2230 2013-06-11 23:43:02 <phantomcircuit> which takes like
2231 2013-06-11 23:43:06 <phantomcircuit> 10 days roughly
2232 2013-06-11 23:43:10 <funky> sipa like what solutions?
2233 2013-06-11 23:43:23 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, no belive me they did it for good reason
2234 2013-06-11 23:43:31 <gmaxwell> (my skeptcism that they'd do something compent goes along with the inattention to completeness in their implementations and the use of trendy programming languages)
2235 2013-06-11 23:43:40 <sipa> phantomcircuit: i am not talking about the current implementation
2236 2013-06-11 23:43:42 <phantomcircuit> as you know i recently improved wallet performance in certain situations a lot
2237 2013-06-11 23:43:43 <sipa> phantomcircuit: it's shit
2238 2013-06-11 23:43:45 <jchp> yeah, you pretty much have to write a block explorer if you're running a large bitcoin site right now
2239 2013-06-11 23:43:52 <phantomcircuit> sipa, i know but i am
2240 2013-06-11 23:43:54 <sipa> phantomcircuit: but it's not my priority to improve that
2241 2013-06-11 23:44:00 <funky> jchp what for?
2242 2013-06-11 23:44:16 <funky> if u sell stuff u can simply wait for 6 confirms and bingo
2243 2013-06-11 23:44:24 <funky> even if u sell amazon scale
2244 2013-06-11 23:44:37 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, to be fair as long as they are more restrictive and not less they're safe since nobody is mining blocks following their rules
2245 2013-06-11 23:44:43 <sipa> phantomcircuit: for example, imho the wallet and blockchain must be separated
2246 2013-06-11 23:44:43 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: sure, having to write software is a given. Writing a buggy, insecure, and incomplete implementation of the whole protocol is just a mark of amateurism.
2247 2013-06-11 23:44:46 <phantomcircuit> but by safe i mean "stops working randomly"
2248 2013-06-11 23:44:47 <jchp> funky: not really, you'd be storing your keys live if you did that, and it'd be really slow and difficult to account for
2249 2013-06-11 23:45:08 cads has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2250 2013-06-11 23:45:14 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: some parties accept invalid blocks and expose their implementations to the public network. ::shrugs::
2251 2013-06-11 23:45:18 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, you'll get no argument from me on that point
2252 2013-06-11 23:45:26 pjorrit has joined
2253 2013-06-11 23:45:30 <phantomcircuit> lol that's just silly
2254 2013-06-11 23:45:54 <sipa> phantomcircuit: and wallets can easily scale, but JSON-RPC is just a really horribly slow way of letting a wallet interact with the chain
2255 2013-06-11 23:46:02 <jchp> funky: that's why the "fastest" sane way to run a large site right now is to basically write a blockexplorer
2256 2013-06-11 23:46:04 <sipa> i mean, the internal rescan runs in a few minutes
2257 2013-06-11 23:46:07 <phantomcircuit> if you're behind a bitcoind that you trust then the worst that is likely to happen is you stop processing new blocks
2258 2013-06-11 23:46:29 <funky> sipa most people who buy physical goods are fine
2259 2013-06-11 23:46:36 <phantomcircuit> jchp, i actually found it easier to just run 4 bitcoind nodes
2260 2013-06-11 23:46:36 <funky> digital insta download goods are different
2261 2013-06-11 23:46:50 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: Generally, though be careful with "worst". If you think thats the worst you're not devious enough!
2262 2013-06-11 23:47:09 <funky> i  can as test open shop with say 10,000 diff items in it
2263 2013-06-11 23:47:12 <funky> sold for btc
2264 2013-06-11 23:47:21 <funky> to see more how well json works
2265 2013-06-11 23:47:34 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, ok well.. someone could find a bug and start mining to fork you, it would require far less than 50% of the network but would be hilariously slow
2266 2013-06-11 23:47:44 tyn has joined
2267 2013-06-11 23:47:55 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, and assuming you are running a trusted bitcoind you can just compare best chains
2268 2013-06-11 23:48:05 <phantomcircuit> which is trivial to do via rpc
2269 2013-06-11 23:48:06 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: you're still not devious enough.
2270 2013-06-11 23:48:07 ne0futur has joined
2271 2013-06-11 23:48:36 <sipa> phantomcircuit: or if wallet and blockchain were separate, you could just run one bitcoind, and connect 4 wallets to it :)
2272 2013-06-11 23:48:36 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, lol i guess not
2273 2013-06-11 23:48:47 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: for example, uh without naming names, I reviewed code that would believe payments to  Them or Someone else  were theirs and would credit balances.
2274 2013-06-11 23:48:50 B0g4r7 has joined
2275 2013-06-11 23:49:04 <funky> eeee
2276 2013-06-11 23:49:10 <funky> gmaxwell what u mean?
2277 2013-06-11 23:49:15 <gmaxwell> (over reliance on PUBLIC KEY == IDENTITY)
2278 2013-06-11 23:49:18 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, ahaha
2279 2013-06-11 23:49:45 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, multisig or something like that?
2280 2013-06-11 23:50:00 <funky> seems like it
2281 2013-06-11 23:50:14 <sipa> phantomcircuit: sorry that i'm not talking about practical current issues, but to me bitcoin is an experiment, and i'm more interested in building a nice solution in the future than having the easiest workable solution now
2282 2013-06-11 23:50:27 <funky> probably bcb solution lol
2283 2013-06-11 23:50:30 <gmaxwell> yes, or any kind of weird script using. I think they ever would have credited for a PUSH with an embedded script that paid to them and was just dropped.
2284 2013-06-11 23:50:41 <phantomcircuit> yeah my loverly postgresql db has the output type from bitcoind and only accepts pubkeyhash currently
2285 2013-06-11 23:50:59 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, that is
2286 2013-06-11 23:51:01 <phantomcircuit> terrible
2287 2013-06-11 23:51:11 <gmaxwell> basically code that used the dumbest possible pattern matching. "Validates the whole chain!"
2288 2013-06-11 23:51:39 * sipa zZzZ
2289 2013-06-11 23:51:52 <gmaxwell> "If it has my pubkeyhash anywhere in it, it's mine!"
2290 2013-06-11 23:52:00 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, that is
2291 2013-06-11 23:52:01 <phantomcircuit> derp
2292 2013-06-11 23:53:15 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yeah this is why i rely on bitcoind to tell me how it is
2293 2013-06-11 23:53:22 <gmaxwell> another fun thing I've seen (for altcoins, not btc) is failing to verify that the hash is below the target.
2294 2013-06-11 23:53:38 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, that is epically stupid
2295 2013-06-11 23:53:53 <phantomcircuit> just give up and go home
2296 2013-06-11 23:53:59 <phantomcircuit> anyways
2297 2013-06-11 23:54:02 anarchy5 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2298 2013-06-11 23:54:04 <phantomcircuit> this gets to my point though
2299 2013-06-11 23:54:14 funky2 has joined
2300 2013-06-11 23:54:23 <phantomcircuit> stupid bugs like this are the current state of the art for merchants with huge address lists
2301 2013-06-11 23:54:32 <phantomcircuit> it'd be nice to have an alternative
2302 2013-06-11 23:54:34 <gmaxwell> But that kind of sloppyness is the behavior you can expect from people who insist on using address==account. Darwin cures them all.
2303 2013-06-11 23:54:34 <phantomcircuit> even if it's a hack
2304 2013-06-11 23:55:04 <gmaxwell> Not giving a shit about doing it right or not understanding and accepting that doing it right takes work is the root problem.
2305 2013-06-11 23:55:13 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, at least some of the address == account stuff has to do with bullshitting regulators
2306 2013-06-11 23:55:32 <phantomcircuit> i know but i want to do it right but safely
2307 2013-06-11 23:55:33 chax_ has joined
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2309 2013-06-11 23:55:46 <phantomcircuit> there's a reason most of the operations in bitcoind dont use cached values
2310 2013-06-11 23:55:58 <phantomcircuit> including almsot all of the internal wallet functions
2311 2013-06-11 23:56:05 <phantomcircuit> it's just safer
2312 2013-06-11 23:56:21 funky has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2313 2013-06-11 23:56:32 <phantomcircuit> so having an rpc call which returned the tx outs for a list of addresses
2314 2013-06-11 23:56:46 <phantomcircuit> would greatly simply the invoice -> address paradigm
2315 2013-06-11 23:56:56 <gmaxwell> And we give that, for addresses in the wallet.
2316 2013-06-11 23:57:36 judah has joined
2317 2013-06-11 23:57:40 funky2 is now known as funky
2318 2013-06-11 23:57:41 <funky> :)
2319 2013-06-11 23:57:45 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, right but then you have to do watch wallets and the only way to add keys is with the private key
2320 2013-06-11 23:57:54 alejandro888 has joined
2321 2013-06-11 23:58:17 <phantomcircuit> so unless you think ahead to push the entire wallet out of the keypool
2322 2013-06-11 23:58:34 <phantomcircuit> you end up doing horrible hacks
2323 2013-06-11 23:58:35 <alejandro888> Hey, is there someone who can help to write the code for a miner?
2324 2013-06-11 23:58:42 <funky> merchant can simply  request customer to send coins to exchange ac
2325 2013-06-11 23:58:52 <funky> and then instantly into usd
2326 2013-06-11 23:58:54 <sipa> phantomcircuit: so help test the watch-only wallets pullrequest :)
2327 2013-06-11 23:59:13 <alejandro888> or can link me to any tutorial?
2328 2013-06-11 23:59:14 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, basically idea is, multiple wallet.dat files which get archived, bitcoind which records transfers to those wallets
2329 2013-06-11 23:59:31 <sipa> phantomcircuit: ok, multiwallet; being worked on
2330 2013-06-11 23:59:34 <phantomcircuit> much much safer since the wallets can be completely disconnected
2331 2013-06-11 23:59:35 <funky> is there issue just timely tracking of incoming payments to the merchants?
2332 2013-06-11 23:59:35 toffoo has joined
2333 2013-06-11 23:59:50 Skav has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2334 2013-06-11 23:59:51 <funky> u can have offline wallet and check chain for payments to you
2335 2013-06-11 23:59:57 <phantomcircuit> sipa, well sort of but not really im talking completely disconnected entirely
2336 2013-06-11 23:59:57 <funky> safe and handy